00:00:01 hm 00:00:12 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 00:01:03 also, BI_IT has *significant* padding :P 00:01:06 It's a whole int. 00:01:55 Ah, looks like I'll need to pick up another of ais523's tricks: AMICED is clearly impossible, so i can have a NEGATIVE_AMICED, and make all operations on it inversed 00:02:31 -!- slereah__ has joined. 00:03:49 'A quarter of a reference to a object of the given type.' 00:03:51 That might be hard. 00:03:58 -!- olsner has joined. 00:05:14 If I ever need to print out the size of a TURKEY BOMB object, I'm going to be lying significantly. :P 00:06:50 Hm. 00:07:01 I am unsure how to represent a NOMENCLATURE. 00:11:10 Can I add the PSOX stuff to the topic? 00:11:11 Well, I've got most of the types codified. The hard part is doing operations on them. 00:11:26 Sgeo: Um, no? No other esoteric language thing has that priviledge.. 00:11:41 ok n/m 00:11:56 anyway, for anyone who's interested: 00:11:57 http://pastebin.ca/896836 00:12:10 mentally fix the typo 'quater' ;) 00:14:34 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:14:41 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:30:15 puzzlet, were you interested in PSOX? 00:30:26 hi 00:31:14 did anyone try ICEBreaker? 00:31:55 * Sgeo is scared of Java, tbh 00:32:18 ? 00:32:42 Java applets == pain 00:32:58 Plus, I'm supposed to be doing some college work 00:33:36 RodgerTheGreat: if you disable sounds. 00:51:42 RodgerTheGreat: will you? 00:52:40 well, the sounds make the gameplay more interesting. Can't you just try muting it if it bothers you so much? 00:55:48 Eh, I guess so. :P 00:55:53 How much more interesting? 00:56:16 Audio cues? Bah. 00:56:19 :| 00:56:33 RodgerTheGreat: is the input meant to be unimaginably slow 00:56:52 ah, yes- the glory that is the linux java plugin 00:57:39 RodgerTheGreat: want to add a tutorial? 00:59:00 it really is a pretty straightforward game. You break a series of passwords, which are randomly scrambled combinations of the pattern shown. 01:02:46 -!- jix has joined. 01:05:48 We need an esolang making use of loads of unicode 01:05:49 Like ↻ 01:06:00 and ⇤ and ⇥ 01:06:24 And ∞ 01:06:30 Those aren't showing for me. 01:06:32 in urxvt. 01:06:49 pikhq: Well, x-chat is dumb and doesn't want to use utf-8. 01:06:57 It was a circle, cut off a bit, with an arrow at one end 01:06:57 PSOX doesn't currently support Unicode :/ 01:07:05 i.e. a circley arrow 01:07:08 and |<- and ->| 01:07:12 and sideways eight 01:07:22 haha: ≫ (looks like >> stuffed together) "much greater than" 01:07:28 i would love to see an esolang giving a concrete meaning to that 01:07:45 Bah. 01:07:52 Use *that* for your bitshift operators. 01:08:13 no, the idea is that it MUST obey what the unicode definition says it is 01:08:14 :-) 01:08:23 Alright, then. 01:08:35 Oh, and of course, ⊨ is true and ⊭ is false. 01:08:43 a >> b == (a - b) > 100 01:08:44 :p 01:08:54 (|= and |/=) 01:08:59 Isn't true-false just a turnstile with only one bar? 01:09:01 |- 01:09:14 slereah__: no, that's an assertation 01:09:17 according to unicode 01:09:22 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 01:09:26 ⋙ 'VERY MUCH GREATER-THAN' ... it's >>> 01:09:51 oh wow 01:09:56 VERTICAL PARENTHESES 01:10:03 ⌢ and ⌣ 01:10:04 a >>> b == (a - b) > 1000. 01:10:08 though apparently they are "frown" and "smile" 01:10:18 pikhq: should be relative to values! ;) 01:10:47 ⌫ 'erase to the left' (looks like Be back laterish 01:11:38 Oh, and we should use unicode box drawing characters for modularness 01:11:40 (2d, of course.) 01:11:58 The program would be a visual representation, in mixed drawing and mathematical notation, of what it does. :P 01:12:52 Oh yes, and all the strange number systems in unicode should be supported 01:13:48 pikhq: It could be called... UniCode! 01:14:27 :D 01:14:28 Of course. 01:14:36 I liek it 01:14:44 Or maybe you could call it. . . APL. 01:14:54 Nah. 01:14:58 APL used its OWN characters. 01:15:10 But anyway. 01:15:15 afaik, APL doesn't even have an official unicode mapping 01:15:20 Pity. 01:15:22 olsner: it does. 01:15:26 it has all the APL chars. 01:15:31 It could be APL, but to stand for "Another Programming Language" 01:15:31 marked as 'APL', incidentally. 01:15:49 It does have a LaTeX mapping, I know. 01:15:53 If a lot of unicode chars were implemented to do very specific things, it might just be the shortest language ever, but even more obfuscated than K or J! :p 01:16:01 pikhq: was that an empty message? 01:16:04 it ate the second half of mine 01:16:33 oh, I was under the impression that APL fonts and systems had to use user-mapped unicode ranges for APL characters - at least all the APL fonts I've found turned out to be mutually incompatible 01:16:36 How many chars does Unicode have? 01:16:55 slereah__: Uh, a few thousand ones actually allocated. 01:16:59 A few million, or billion, unused. 01:17:12 That's a whole lot of programs to do! 01:17:13 more than a few thousands though 01:17:17 '...Unicode consists of a repertoire of about 100,000 characters,...' 01:17:24 Heh 01:17:46 Good luck mapping Chinese characters into functions. :p 01:17:54 Although I doubt that you'd find an easy use for foreign scripts 01:18:00 Apart from greek 01:18:03 haskell Chars go up to 1114111, I think 01:18:22 And possibly sum hebrew, although I doubt you can use Aleph Null a whole lot! 01:18:32 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 01:18:47 aleph null would be used a lot! 01:18:55 infinites and fuzzies are just going to have to be embraced :P 01:19:04 pikhq: Yeah, obviously none of those kinds of things will be looked at 01:19:17 The hardest bit will be writing the code. :-P 01:19:21 Yes. 01:19:29 "What's the char for that function?" 01:19:37 slereah__: ... and how do i type it? 01:19:37 "What's the unicode for that char?" 01:19:43 You'd want an ASCII->UniCode mapping. 01:19:46 And, indeed, what language to write the interpreter in, with the insane unicode support needed :P 01:19:52 pikhq: That's ridiculous. :P 01:20:07 ehird`_: Agreed. 01:20:18 Do most text editor even support unicode? 01:20:23 Emacs does. 01:20:23 slereah__: Any decent one does.. 01:20:29 pikhq: Emacs does, since *recently* 01:20:30 Also, might I recommend Tcl? 01:20:35 And only very recently in an official release. 01:20:47 Also, you may not. It's far too much of a shell-alike for my tastes. 01:20:49 * slereah__ uses Kate 01:20:54 So I'm not so sure. 01:21:09 oh my god! the interrobang MUST be used :D 01:21:12 But it's had proper Unicode support for nearly 10 years now! 01:21:28 What's the interobang for? Error related? 01:21:28 pikhq: But not proper coding support, apparently. 01:21:36 slereah__: I don't know. But - interrobang! 01:21:40 ?! 01:21:41 ehird`_: Nor does any language, apparently. 01:21:52 pikhq: Languages unlike the shell work well.. 01:22:04 And Tcl's not shell-like, unless you're ignorant. 01:22:43 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 01:23:02 But, apart from Unicody, what would the language be like? 01:23:05 ...does anyone remember when I messing around with turtle and made this cool rose thing? 01:23:11 I'm trying to recreate the source code for that... to no avail 01:23:17 slereah__: Stack-based, of course. 01:23:28 pikhq: You're good at insulting people who don't like tcl... 01:23:36 How is it dissimilar to a scripting shell? 01:23:38 Why are people always on the side of stacks! 01:23:47 slereah__: APL-ish, in the crazy fluid syntax way. 01:23:57 http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j316/adamadamadamamiadam/rose.png 01:23:58 this 01:24:01 ehird`_: How is it in any way *similar* to a shell? 01:24:03 Not stack-based, because that doesn't follow unicode text flow! 01:24:09 pikhq: Answer the question I originally asked.. 01:24:10 I'm trying to reproduce the source code I used to make this. But I don't remember the math I did. 01:24:44 I wonder how much space a Unicode chart would take on my wall 01:24:47 * pikhq doesn't know of any shells with lists as a standard data type. 01:24:48 :p 01:24:59 Although it might be refered more as a mural 01:25:19 pikhq: Bash.. 01:25:24 You're kidding. 01:26:01 How would you translate, say, {2 {3 4} {5 {6 {{7}}}}} in Bash? 01:26:18 I forget the syntax- but you can do that. 01:26:30 Anyways. . . 01:26:44 ...HALP PLZ 01:26:54 maybe I can find a log of me talking about it... 01:27:03 with the source conveniently somewhere 01:27:35 Tcl's semantics are also quite different. . . Particularly that pesky bit about Tcl's semantics being, to a certain degree, runtime-modifiable. 01:28:07 -ahem- more importantly 01:28:09 who the fuck cares? 01:28:20 we should all be figuring out how I made this thing. 01:28:22 ... 01:28:25 'Login error: 01:28:25 The name "(void *)0" is very similar to the existing account "Voldo" (contributions • logs • user creation entry). Please choose another name, or request an administrator to create this account for you.' 01:28:31 what the fuck, mediawiki. 01:28:47 Heh. 01:28:54 is there a log of this channel? 01:29:05 Yeah; it *used* to be in the topic. . . 01:29:10 pikhq: Sssh! 01:29:14 CakeProphet: ircbrowse.com 01:30:07 Does shell lend itself readily to something like "expr [join $list +]" or "+ {*}$list" to add up the contents of a list? 01:31:31 ...I'm going to need a log from like... half a year ago or more 01:32:07 There's logs from that period 01:32:20 Although looking for it might be challenging. 01:32:30 CakeProphet: There's logs from 2003 01:32:44 ...but I don't see a way to search for words in all of them at once 01:33:04 CakeProphet: site:[site] [word] on google 01:33:39 Example : http://www.google.fr/search?q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Ftunes.org%2F~nef%2Flogs%2Fesoteric%2F+butt&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:official&client=firefox-a 01:35:13 ...bah. I can't find anything. 01:36:17 For some reason, I'm the first result for "butt" in the logs. 01:38:21 ...this is going to annoy me 01:38:27 I think had something to do with the golden ratio... 01:39:18 What was your nick back then CakeProphet? 01:39:40 either CakeProphet or SevenInchBread 01:39:59 There's a turtle discussion with SIB in it 01:40:07 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/07.03.01 01:40:37 slereah__, were you interested in PSOX? 01:41:02 Well, since I don't know enough CS to appreciate its grandeur, not that much. 01:41:03 Check out the wiki page for PSOX 01:41:15 ℵ 01:41:30 Although, mister ehird`_, I <3 your idea of UniCode. 01:41:47 :D 01:41:48 slereah__: You're in #estoeric, but don't know enough CS to appreciate PSOX?!? 01:42:18 CakeProphet: http://deadbeefbabe.org/paste/3839?__session_just_started__=1 01:42:21 Familiar? 01:42:49 pikhq: I'm still mostly in the input/output/computation phase. 01:43:23 :-o 01:44:02 ...it was around that same time. 01:44:05 But still, since I don't want to do actually sort of useful looking stuff, I don't need much more than that! 01:44:07 but that's not it 01:45:05 but that definetely helps... as it might be similar math... 01:45:15 I might have just changed that a little bit and ended up making this rose thing 01:45:52 Hm. ehird`_ said "Turtles" a lot on MY BIRTHDAY IN 2007 01:45:56 COINCIDENCE? 01:46:07 Dude, I'm freaked out. 01:47:15 try looking for rose... as I think I mentioned it once 01:48:42 I tried but found nothing 01:53:30 -!- ehird`_ has set topic: YEW-KNEE-KODE. 01:53:54 speaking of which 01:53:57 http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/UniCode 01:56:02 Should we start a list of chars with associated functions? 01:57:53 slereah__: No, there's more fundamental things to decide on first. 01:58:09 Probably. 01:58:50 e.g. syntactical format, crazy esoteric paradigm, basic structure of programs... 01:59:19 Will SimonRC be back anytime soon? 01:59:34 Sgeo: No, he's dead. Unicode killed him 01:59:36 So you can ask him of PSOX? 01:59:44 slereah__: You're getting good at this 01:59:56 I noticed some sort of trend 02:00:00 >.> 02:00:01 It's subtle, but it's there. 02:00:11 slereah__: Yeah, kind of murky. 02:05:21 * slereah__ 's going to write the description of clockpunk on the wiki 02:08:07 slereah__: What syntax? 02:08:13 ehird`_, rather. 02:08:32 Allow me to do the appropriate syntax in BNF. 02:08:50 command := ? 02:09:14 pikhq: ? 02:09:26 When you have that many chars to work with, you don't need syntax. You just need one char per command. 02:09:36 heh 02:09:38 loops, and stuff. 02:09:39 :) 02:09:55 Douch'e. 02:10:33 I'm not a douche :( 02:10:34 :-P 02:11:13 Touch'e, douch'e. 02:11:54 :( 02:14:24 What's the verb for applying mod to a number? 02:14:24 Modulated or something? 02:15:15 pikhq: Show me some elegant Tcl code 02:15:17 slereah__: Modulo 02:16:06 proc K {x y} {return $x} 02:16:07 :p 02:16:19 pikhq: Hmm, something a bit bigger? :-P 02:16:41 Is that a verb? 02:16:51 slereah__: Yes. 02:16:54 "x modulo y" 02:17:03 pikhq: What about a curried version of K? 02:19:25 package require Tk;pack [label -text "Hello, world!"];# :p 02:19:46 if only tk wasn't pig-ugly on x11 02:19:47 :P 02:19:48 pikhq: What about a curried version of K? 02:22:42 pikhq: pinghq 02:22:59 http://wiki.tcl.tk/1318 02:23:57 Not a curried version of K. . . Just really old Tcl lambdas. 02:24:28 pikhq: Well, I want a curried K! :P 02:24:43 I am starting to feel like tcl has no trivial anonymous functions with lexical closures.. 02:25:18 Also.. how does Tcl handle garbage collection? 02:26:10 interp alias {} K {} {[apply {x} {apply y {x}}]} 02:26:15 Reference counting. 02:26:36 pikhq: Handles circular references? 02:26:41 Also, what is that interp alias junk? 02:26:49 Can't you make a function returning a function...? 02:27:01 You can, but said function wouldn't be evaluated. . . 02:27:11 :| 02:27:20 pikhq: But I write higher-order functions all the time.. 02:27:25 Especially with lexical scope. 02:27:28 (because *somebody* thought that making every command implicitly begin with {*} was a bad idea. :() 02:27:39 {*}? 02:28:04 proc K {x y} {return {apply x {apply y {$x}}}} 02:28:18 Call via: {*}K I think. . . 02:28:27 I see. 02:28:37 pikhq: It seems that you cannot do arithmetic without a special 'expr' command.. 02:28:41 isn't that deathly ugly? 02:28:54 {*} expands the word into a series of words. . . 02:29:04 And Tcl 8.5 allows you to do arithmetic without expr. 02:29:12 [+ 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] 02:29:15 pikhq: is 8.5 'new'? 02:29:25 Latest release. 02:29:35 Once again: why that never was in before is beyond me. 02:29:35 It seems that ubuntu/debian do not have it. 02:30:10 return [expr $n * [factorial [expr $n - 1]]] please tell me there is a nicer way to do this. 02:30:37 return [* $n [factorial [- $n 1]]] 02:31:09 pikhq: Again, I don't have Tcl 8.5, on account of being unable to 02:31:30 Fine, then. 02:31:42 -!- ihope has joined. 02:31:46 proc * {args} {expr [join $args *]} 02:31:54 proc - {args} {expr [join $args -]} 02:31:57 It'll work now. 02:32:31 pikhq: OK, I'm just asking if I really need that nested 'expr'.. 02:33:06 Hmm. I thought there was an esoteric programming language called Requiem. 02:33:17 Not necessarily. One *could* replace that with [incr n -1]. :p 02:33:20 ihope: Carpeirequiem or whatever exists. 02:33:23 pikhq: :| 02:33:27 Ah, right. 02:33:33 ihope: that doesn't even work. 02:33:35 My factorial. 02:33:36 err 02:33:37 pik 02:33:38 pikhq 02:33:44 Abuh? 02:33:47 factorial 5 doesn't work.. 02:33:50 does tcl disown recursion? 02:34:13 It doesn't tail-call optimise, but it should at least work for 5 recursions. . . 02:34:49 proc factorial {n} {if {n == 0} {return 1} {return [expr $n * [factorial [expr $n - 1]]]}} 02:35:26 s/n == 0/$n == 0/ 02:36:14 dfgdsfgsdfgjk 02:36:26 it's like what would happen if php was reduced to a pure core 02:36:40 % factorial 100 02:36:40 0 02:36:42 NO BIGNUMS WHAT. 02:36:50 pikhq: Explain. 02:37:02 Did I happen to mention that Tcl 8.4 sucks? 02:37:07 % factorial 60 02:37:07 -3819052484010180608 AAAAAAAH 02:37:12 pikhq: Go yell at ubuntu people 02:38:09 But seriously. 02:38:36 Keep in mind that Tcl is *imperative*, not functional. :p 02:38:58 (attempts to add lambda to the core aside) 02:39:28 pikhq: Seriously. Bignums. Non-sucky infix. :P 02:39:43 Really I want to be coding in Dylan. did Dylan support bignums and unicode? 02:39:49 Dunno. 02:40:09 Perhaps you'd prefer Jim? 02:40:13 Well, it was cool. Because it was Lisp with syntax. 02:40:25 Jim is, in essence, some guy's sandbox for clever Tcl features. 02:40:33 Native bignums, native lambdas, etc. 02:40:38 pikhq: I see. 02:40:42 Not common I take it 02:40:59 No, but about half of its features are in Tcl 8.5 now. . . 02:41:29 Did not realise that it has closures. 02:41:40 Anyways: Jim is also a fairly small footprint implementation. 02:41:54 (Tcl is really easy to implement if you don't bother with bytecode, apparently) 02:42:06 there's a tcl in 500 lines of readable .c 02:42:23 http://antirez.com/page/picol.html 02:42:32 I've messed with it. 02:42:50 Jim is roughly 10,000 lines of readable C. 02:43:23 Which is a decent size, but in that, you get complete Tcl, lambda, closures, etc. . . 02:43:26 Kicks ass. 02:43:29 pikhq: Tk? 02:44:08 I don't know if he bothered implementing the Stubs API. 02:45:20 Oh well. 02:45:25 I don't think I'll be programming in Tcl, unfortunately. 02:45:38 What I really want is a hybrid of erlang, Lisp, and dylan-like syntax. 02:45:54 Get oerjan to whore out Haskell. :p 02:46:46 I like haskell. But i dunno. 02:46:57 Oooh. He *did* implement the Stubs API. 02:47:02 So, yes, it *can* do Tk. 02:48:48 pikhq: It is just too simplistic for me... 02:49:08 It doesn't have any of the wonderful abstractions, like anonymous functions, that i've come to love so much 02:49:19 Jim does. 02:49:45 Fuck, I just realised that input in Clockpunk makes it not work. 02:49:59 lambda x {* $x 2} is perfectly valid in Jim. 02:50:00 At least not in that form. 02:50:34 pikhq: Jim is not widely-accepted enough. 02:50:52 Touch'e. 02:50:58 Fair 'nough. 02:51:19 I'll just continue pestering the fine Tcl maintainers in #tcl to add Jim features to Tcl. 02:52:02 I guess so. 02:52:05 When I can do this: 02:52:17 proc K {x} {proc {y} {return $x}} 02:52:19 then call me. 02:52:42 Incidentally, I do believe that syntax shouldn't be hard. If I recall correctly, that's "proc ?name? args body" 02:53:35 It'd probably get stuck as [lambda y {return $x}], but, yeah. . . 02:54:15 pikhq: Well, that sucks :p 02:54:21 Oh yeah, this should work: 02:54:24 [K 1] 2 02:54:31 As this: 02:54:48 proc foo {x} {proc {i} {set x [+ $x $i]}} 02:56:04 pikhq: I mean, why do you need an extra form for it? 02:56:31 Actually, your suggested syntax would work fairly well. 02:56:52 pikhq: Indeed. 02:57:10 Hm 02:57:16 what's that example by, i think, knuth? 02:57:21 like a hello world 02:57:22 but moreso 02:57:24 a full function 03:05:37 Ah 03:05:38 TPK 03:07:50 pikhq: Talk tomorrow. 03:08:56 bye 03:10:51 -!- ehird`_ has quit ("K-Lined by peer"). 04:04:57 hey, GregorR- check this out: http://www.3dtomb2.com/about.php 04:08:51 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("haaaaaaaaaa"). 04:12:31 does anyone want to help me tease apart the source code and reverse engineer this so that we might learn it's secrets? 04:15:15 -!- calamari has joined. 04:15:57 hi calamari. Did you see the wiki page for PSOX recently? 04:16:01 hey, calamari 04:16:02 hi 04:16:31 and apparently nobody's in a reverse-engineering mood tonight. :/ 04:16:37 no.. I haven't really been looking at the wiki lately 04:16:54 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:16:59 lots of other projects have been attracting my attention 04:17:09 At least look at the topic of #psox ? 04:17:14 RodgerTheGreat: what are you working on? :) 04:17:18 sure 04:17:31 http://www.3dtomb2.com/about.php <- I was thinking about taking this apart 04:17:38 ahh good, so there is still work being done on that :) 04:17:41 it's nifty, and I'd like to know how it works 04:18:02 on an unrelated note, I finished the game I was working on earlier: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/ICEBreaker/ 04:18:14 It's an alpha version, and doesn't support custom domains and no builtin domains other than 0-2 have been defined 04:19:11 RodgerTheGreat: it is using a very primitive ray tracing system.. I did something similar on the atari 5200... although my walls were solid colors 04:19:20 cool 04:19:52 it basically takes the environment as a ceiling, a back wall, and a floor 04:20:05 I did a very simple raytracer in Java once 04:20:33 it projects in 2-d space to find out how far away the wall is, then shades accordingly 04:20:47 I understand the basics of how it functions, I'm just curious about the implementation 04:21:00 ahh, ok 04:21:47 back when I was messing around with EsoShell, someone came across a javascript "unix" computer 04:21:57 booted up, drives, etc.. was pretty cool 04:22:09 wow 04:22:16 sounds like quite the tech demo 04:24:06 cool, it's still operating 04:24:08 http://www.masswerk.at/jsuix/ 04:28:59 calamari, are you going to poke around with PSOX 1.0a1? 04:30:47 I downloaded it.. sure, I'll take a look :) right now I'm trying to get this usb wireless adapter to work 04:34:10 I really should go to sleep soon 04:35:26 well it'll be there on my desktop enticing me :) 04:38:58 http://info.prevx.com/aboutprogramtext.asp?PX5=44D8861244FEA8A800F3006DE82E120078ABB02F I didn't know EICAR Test File was bad.. 04:38:58 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:39:22 "This file is considered to have some unsafe aspects and is part of the malware group, EICAR_Test_file_not_a_virus!." 04:41:43 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:48:56 -!- danopia has quit (Connection timed out). 05:05:30 Remember, I wrote a MISC simulator in JS. 05:05:35 It can run Hello World et c. 05:08:04 I thought that was a MIX simulator? 05:30:58 -!- calamari has joined. 05:41:46 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 05:42:56 -!- adu has joined. 05:45:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 05:46:37 -!- calamari has joined. 05:57:06 alright, who was it that was asking me about "cosm" the other day? I thought it was pikhq, but apparently I was mistaken. 05:58:17 (this : http://rodger.nonlogic.org/images/Cosm1.png) 06:00:42 This project died several months ago. However, there was some interest in bringing it back. 06:01:13 The problem is, I wasn't sure where I wanted to go with the story. That's where you guys come in... 06:01:32 who would be interested in helping me write a continuation? 06:03:43 my rules are: 1) it should be funny, original and interesting (I can help on the "funny" part), 2) I do not draw porn. Implied or partial nudity will be used sparingly, if at all, and only in the service of a good storyline. 3) No guarantees on delivery dates, ever. Other than that, anything goes. 06:04:58 what does "poit" mean? just curious :) 06:05:25 calamari: Pinky & The Brain reference? 06:05:36 never watched that 06:05:42 guess that's why I don't get it :) 06:05:49 :-O 06:06:16 calamari: it's an on onomatopoeia 06:06:30 like "bink" or "plop" 06:06:40 ahh ok 06:07:00 there is also a second page: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/images/Cosm2.png 06:07:20 and if people are interested, I located the planning sketches for pages 3 and 4 06:08:04 sure 06:09:22 got my wireless toing, but had to disable my firewall :( 06:09:26 alright, give me a few moments 06:10:33 * pikhq goes to sleep 06:17:08 there we go- everything is in this folder: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/images/Cosm/ 06:17:35 my favorite is "blarf" 06:18:01 heh. a very colorful one 06:22:54 calamari: what do you think? 06:23:37 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:25:44 I'm not sure I followed it.. so maybe I should go to bed .. hehe 06:26:04 ah, alright 06:26:08 but it's neat :) 06:26:09 good night 06:26:20 were you working on homework on the last page? 06:26:55 not really 06:27:11 oh, DNA, took me a minute 06:27:32 although, ironically, the first page started as a doodle on the back of a homework assignment 06:28:03 the question was "what is the meaning of life", and the response is "t++" 06:28:38 to clarify, it launches into the molecular structure of DNA and a regex defining life as permutations of these elements 06:28:46 ++t might be more efficient :) 06:28:59 Life plus energy equals life. Therefore, life implies life. 06:29:15 it's a complicated way of stating that life has no inherent purpose beyond existing 06:29:33 doesn't have to save t first before incrementing :) 06:29:35 don't you mean while (t++) ? and the question is whether t is negative or positive... 06:30:03 * ; 06:30:04 "replication is it's own reward" 06:30:46 see, the expectations of this audience were part of why it was so hard to write 06:30:58 I don't want to go into what I had to do to get the prime on page 2 06:31:15 did you use an esolang to generate it? 06:31:23 no, thankfully. :S 06:32:59 'night 06:33:02 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 06:36:17 so... is anybody interested in the collaborative writing idea? 06:47:53 -!- adu has quit ("Computer went to sleep"). 06:49:36 'guess I'll take that as a "no". :/ 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:19:42 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 09:30:31 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 10:02:56 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:04:01 -!- puzzlet has joined. 10:20:46 -!- timotiis has joined. 11:08:17 -!- Tritonio__ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:15:48 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 11:55:08 -!- olsner has joined. 12:37:10 -!- jix has joined. 13:35:31 -!- Corun has joined. 13:48:15 -!- sarehu has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:48:45 -!- sarehu has joined. 13:52:30 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 13:53:06 -!- RedDak has joined. 14:18:31 -!- ihope has joined. 14:18:40 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:24:05 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:42:49 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:53:39 -!- Corun has joined. 15:21:34 -!- argoyle has joined. 15:34:00 hey everyone 15:36:22 Hey. 15:36:30 Ello. 15:37:00 I take it someone has arrived. 15:37:03 I think the crowd here is sufficiently pedantic to appreciate this: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm 15:39:21 -!- danopia has joined. 15:43:45 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 15:45:24 "*One can cure oneself of the not un- formation by memorizing this sentence: A not unblack dog was chasing a not unsmall rabbit across a not ungreen field." 15:53:13 -!- Corun has joined. 15:59:50 Already read it, I think, actually. 15:59:59 * pikhq pulls it up to see if that's true 16:00:19 Ah, that one. I adore that Orwell essay. 16:04:48 Although I'm guilty of moderately prententious diction; my range of vocabulary makes it quite difficult to not use such diction. 16:06:55 But some of his examples are overdoing it, even to me, Mr. Dictionary. :p 16:07:23 (I mean really: somebody actually *wrote* like that? *hurl*) 16:27:34 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:38:00 -!- Corun has quit ("Yaaar."). 16:39:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:41:12 The exportation of productivity and therefore buying power to other nations is not harmless to the well-being of those people who live in those countries from which productivity is exported. 16:48:42 Of course not; it's damned good for China, India, etc. 16:52:29 trade, when reasonably fair, is not a zero-sum game 16:59:11 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:00:24 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:01:33 -!- slereah__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:03:53 Hi Slereah 17:04:01 * Sgeo wonders if ihope was interested in PSOX 17:04:15 How interested? 17:05:49 @hoogle Socket -> FD 17:05:55 interested enough to care that there was an alpha release (no custom domains, and domains other than 0-2 haven't been defined yet) 17:07:15 At the moment, not especially, really. 17:07:24 I may feel different tomorrow. :-P 17:12:13 Yay, a method for assigning every rational number in (0,1) to a dyadic rational number. 17:12:23 ...in (0,1). 17:13:39 The rational numbers in (0,1) are isomorphic to all rational numbers, the dyadic rational numbers in (0,1), all dyadic rational numbers, the numbers with a terminating decimal expansion in (0,1), all numbers with a terminating decimal expansion... 17:14:31 all elements of any infinite countable set... 17:15:57 By "isomorphic" I mean "order isomorphic", not plain old of-the-same-cardinality. 17:16:33 oh... 17:17:07 ok in that case, any densely ordered countable set with no endpoints 17:17:28 -!- helios24 has quit ("Leaving"). 17:17:28 hm is that right 17:17:31 This makes the proof that every countable ordinal number is order isomorphic with a subset of the real numbers seem obvious. :-P 17:18:17 I'm sure every ordered countable set is order isomorphic with a subset of the rational numbers. 17:18:27 that it is 17:18:54 and it is also order isomorphic with a subset of any set such as i mean 17:19:29 but does that mean any two such are isomorphic... 17:19:58 I think so, but let me think on it. 17:20:36 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:20:53 If S and T are isomorphic with subsets of each other... 17:21:29 that in itself is not enough, consider with and without endpoints 17:21:35 Indeed. 17:22:30 hm you want to select representatives in such a way that all elements are eventually used 17:23:01 ah you can do that with binary expansions 17:23:21 always pick the candidate with least denominator, i think 17:24:07 That's my isomorphism, pretty much. 17:24:17 essentially building an ordered binary tree 17:24:33 A paste: http://pastebin.ca/897553 17:25:45 Enumerate the rational numbers and put each in its place. 17:28:49 aye 17:33:34 If you try to enumerate, say, omega*2 by going 0, omega, 1, omega+1, 2, omega+2, etc., then you end up with 0, 0+, 0+-, 0++, 0+--, 0+++, 0+---, 0++++, etc. That doesn't go through all the possible strings of + and -. 17:35:43 that is because the order of omega*2 is not dense - there is not a point between any two points. 17:36:08 * oerjan hopes he remembers correctly that's what dense order means 17:36:40 Yeah. 17:37:45 indeed i did, says google and wikipedia 17:38:34 Yeah, being dense means that it'll go through every string, I think: 0+-+- will be assigned to the first thing between 0+-+ and... what, 0++? 17:39:27 0+-- i think... 17:39:49 or wait 17:39:59 No, 0+-- and 0+-+ surround 0+- and come after it. 17:40:35 I think 0+-+ and 0+-, actually. 17:41:09 that sounds right 17:45:06 I'll have to write up the Haskell program to translate between these automatically later. :-P 17:46:58 And between the rational numbers a/b and (a+1)/b, there's usually a/(b-1). 17:47:34 Meaning that there's no problem with finding a good way to enumerate the rational numbers beyond "lower denominators first". 17:48:27 hm such a haskell program would essentially be a quicksort 17:49:17 if you start with a list of elements, the first becomes 0, then you split the remainder according to whether they're less than or greater to the first 17:58:01 Indeed, though I was thinking more like "here's a rational number; give me its tree string" and "here's a tree string; give me its terminating decimal". 17:58:11 oh and indeed between any two rational numbers there is one with smaller numerator _and_ denominator 17:58:34 closely connected to finding continued fractions, i recall 17:58:41 What's between 1/4 and 1/5? 17:58:52 um could be one of the endpoints 17:59:13 if one endpoint has both smaller than the other 17:59:52 Do you mean that between any two rational numbers with the same denominator, there's one with a smaller numerator and denominator than both? 18:00:21 no, between any two rational numbers, period, but possibly being one of them 18:01:01 a different way of stating it: in any interval, there is a unique rational number with smalles numerator and denominator 18:01:08 *smallest 18:01:32 The one with the smallest denominator is also the one with the smallest numerator? 18:01:37 Yeah, sounds right. 18:01:56 I'll be going, then, and reading the logs in case you have any more to say. 18:02:01 Bye. 18:02:06 there could be several candidates with one the same 18:02:10 bye 18:02:23 (e.g. 1/4 and 1/5 both have the same numerator) 18:02:25 (And I hope once again I didn't sound rude there.) 18:02:36 where? ;) 18:13:34 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:18:50 Hi pikhq 18:18:59 Going to play with PSOX 1.0a1? 18:25:48 Is it some hypnosis method?. 18:28:55 ? 18:30:52 Asking us of PSOX over and over again! 18:35:28 Last I checked, pikhq was interested in PSOX 19:02:09 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 19:43:06 hmm 19:43:37 Hi SimonRC 19:43:47 Did you see the latest news about PSOX? 19:45:42 no 19:47:01 ihope: I thought you had gone mad up there when you started talking about an isomorphism between the rationals and the dyuadic rationals 19:48:28 A PSOX alpha was released! 19:48:36 do you have a clearer explanation of an "order isomorhpism" than the wikipedia one? 19:48:39 Sgeo: ooh 19:50:33 a bijection between two ordered sets that preserves the relative order of elements? 19:51:28 ok 19:51:39 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/PSOX-1.0a1.zip 19:51:45 so order isomorphisms are a superset of bijections? 19:52:15 (custom domains don't work yet, and only builtin domains 0-2 are defined. You can add your own domain to 3, though, for example, but that's only for testing) 19:52:50 subset... 19:53:16 "Hence, yet another characterization of order isomorphisms is possible: they are exactly those monotone bijections that have a monotone inverse." 19:53:48 yeah, I meant subset 19:54:49 -!- ivan has joined. 19:54:55 but that means you have found a bijection between the rationals in (0,1) and the ---- 19:54:58 waitamo... 19:55:10 I was reading and typing "rationals" and thinking of the reals 19:55:12 d'oh 19:55:58 of course there is no bijection between the reals in (0,1) and the dyadic rationals 20:05:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:08:50 SimonRC, are you going to look at PSOX 1.0a1? 20:09:16 -!- Sgeo[Mibbit] has joined. 20:09:25 -!- argoyle has left (?). 20:09:39 -!- Sgeo[Mibbit] has left (?). 20:20:05 ok 20:22:46 -!- Slereah has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:23:28 -!- Slereah has joined. 20:31:17 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:31:32 I think that psox might actually turn non-TC langs into TC ones 20:31:36 I am not sure though 20:32:11 I think it would depend on how the lang is non-TC. PSOX doesn't exactly have control structures, but there might be other things.. 20:32:36 Maybe things like providing storage to languages with finite storage 20:32:46 memory 20:34:12 yes 20:34:33 the ability to "loop back" data from output to input might do it 20:35:45 Maybe I should add creation of a loopback FD to either system or utils? 20:35:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Client Quit). 20:37:06 No, I mean the existing ability to loop back data. 20:37:15 the byte->hex and all that 20:37:20 oh 20:37:47 Would a separate loopback FD be useful at all? 20:38:21 Or a separate function(s) just for loopback? Or is that unnecessary? 20:39:03 Are you going to experiment with the released alpha? 20:39:22 * Sgeo should add the svn command to retrieve the latest from SVN to the wiki, but I'm not good with SVN 20:40:10 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:41:02 wb pikhq 20:41:16 May I msg you what you missed? 20:54:05 -!- ehird` has joined. 20:54:26 -!- ehird` has quit (Connection reset by peer). 20:54:52 -!- ehird` has joined. 20:55:08 So! 20:56:00 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 20:59:18 Hello mister sir ehird` 20:59:28 Very formal of you. 21:00:14 Well, I witheld my "Admiral doctor cardinal" 21:00:39 On a totally unrelated note, yesterday I decided I would register -- on wikipedia -- the captcha it gives me on the registration form. 21:00:46 Unfortunately 2 were taken but then i nabbed 'tubepoint' 21:07:00 pikhq: I have a question 21:07:25 if Tcl's semantics are runtime modifiable, doesn't that mean a compiler can't be much more efficient than an interpreter, because it has to retain the structure? 21:07:26 if so, that's scary. i don't like languages that can't be compiled efficiently 21:07:53 -!- RedDak has joined. 21:08:15 -!- olsner has joined. 21:09:37 * Sgeo has VirusTotal reanalyze EICAR to see if the one that didn't see it sees it now 21:09:41 Nope 21:10:28 FileAdvisor does not treat EICAR like a virus 21:11:52 Sgeo: VirusTotal? FileAdvisor? 21:11:58 what kind of crap is that 21:15:32 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:16:02 -!- ehird` has joined. 21:16:10 dfgskg 21:16:16 RodgerTheGreat: ping 21:16:21 yeah? 21:16:35 http://www.virustotal.com 21:16:40 Scans files with multiple scanners 21:16:52 FileAdvisor is one of them, and it does not pick up EICAR 21:17:27 http://www.virustotal.com/analisis/11aeb342483ec52481fd7f4fbba72cd8 21:17:33 RodgerTheGreat: it was me who asked about cosm 21:17:44 ah 21:17:52 Sgeo: maybe it's clever enoug hto know when it's been tricked 21:18:06 so you read the entire conversation that came afterwards? 21:18:08 ehird`, it's supposed to detect the file as a virus 21:18:19 It's supposed to be an industry standard 21:18:45 http://eicar.org/anti_virus_test_file.htm 21:18:53 Sgeo: yes, but it's sentient and recognizes evil tricks designed to fool it! 21:20:03 i know what it id 21:20:08 is 21:20:08 but it's not a *real* virus 21:20:08 so the virus scanner is just clever! :D 21:22:02 ehird`: ? 21:23:06 Maybe FileAdvisor was not set up properly by VirusTotal 21:25:17 RodgerTheGreat: hm, most of it 21:25:17 :P 21:25:17 Sgeo: maybe it just doesn't recognize it 21:25:29 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:25:33 RodgerTheGreat: well, my only suggestion is that free iPods must be involved, somewhere 21:25:35 and they must eventually be recalled upon and become a vital element of the story. 21:25:50 I dunno, that sounds awfully commercial 21:26:07 did you read pages 3 and 4? 21:29:02 also incurring massive charges due to liberal application of the word 'free' 21:29:59 I wouldn't mind including a livid, raging stallman in response to "free" something 21:30:17 RodgerTheGreat: trying to, but page 4 is absolutely unreadable at parts 21:30:17 too small text 21:30:17 RodgerTheGreat: well, you could make it that iPods are really hyperdimensional mind control objects or something? 21:30:20 :-P 21:30:34 where did this obsession with iPods come from? 21:30:54 so, who here wants a turkey bomb implementation 21:32:31 Wasn't Turkey Bomb a string of non-sensical terms designed as a joke? 21:34:50 RodgerTheGreat: you are the 2387129837129387129837th person in the universe thing 21:35:05 and the freeipods site are the funniest bunch of those 21:35:24 that wasn't really the vibe I was going with... 21:35:46 well, it's what my brain decided! ;) 21:35:51 mainly because of this http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Euroipods 21:36:27 Free iPods for money? 21:36:31 Slereah: Yes. 21:36:31 I'm there! 21:37:41 Slereah: And yes, turkey bomb was pretty much that. 21:37:46 But it can be implemented, with enough hand-waving 21:38:05 Where can I find this jewel crafted in handwavium? 21:38:28 http://catseye.tc/projects/turkeyb/doc/turkeyb.html 21:38:48 The interpretor, means I. 21:40:01 It is not built yet! 21:40:22 But it will be, sometime. 21:41:24 Good luck! 21:42:01 Speaking of which, we need a UniCode committee 21:42:13 But unfortunately, #unicode is taken. 21:42:30 #Unicodecode maybe? 21:43:05 interpret it in twoducks. then it wioll have isen invented already 21:43:40 oerjan: wioll? isen? 21:43:41 Let's design a twoduck processor. 21:43:50 ehird`: 42. 21:44:04 All we need is some roman ring configuration of wormholes! 21:44:10 oerjan: yes. 21:44:11 i get wioll 21:44:14 but 'isen'? 21:44:39 "been" maybe? 21:44:43 Slereah: Maybe I should change the name to UniScript. I mean, UniCode is an amusing name, but could cause problems... 21:44:47 Slereah: That's not in HHGTTG 21:44:51 that would be the future quasi-perfect imparticiple of "to be" 21:45:13 oerjan: brilliant. 21:46:51 and in a different timeline, i woulden not haved invented this on the spot, either 21:48:33 Slereah: anything re: uniCode's name? 21:48:55 I'm okay with UniScript. 21:49:01 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:TwoDucks 21:50:33 Slereah: it's not as funny though :P 21:50:48 Unifuck? 21:50:49 Nah. 21:50:59 Codeuni 21:51:14 Sgeo: I ought to write a twoducks interp :P 21:51:27 ehird`: Got some exotic matter? 21:51:37 Slereah: It's not neccessarily uncomputable. 21:51:39 See that talk page. 21:51:54 (For input rewinding, we'll just pretend we never did the input, and use ncurses to scribble over where the input was entered. Output would also be scribbled over.) 21:52:24 Well, the fact that it's not uncomputable doesn't mean it's implementable! 21:52:49 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:55:03 Slereah: Yes it does? 21:55:16 if it is computable on a turing machine, you can write an interpreter for it 21:55:44 Well, you can simulate the computations it can do 21:55:56 But not the actual machine. 21:56:25 I'm also not sure it's not uncomputable. 21:56:34 soo - we have UniCode, UniScript, any other names? 21:56:41 There's a very similar machine that's believed to be uncomputable 21:57:58 oh yeah, and UniCode/Script/Kitten will have its own editor 21:58:06 just because working with that kind of crazy unicode otherwise would be near impossible 21:58:14 I like unikitten. 21:58:21 it'll hijack space as an expansion key so you can type regular characters (most programs won't include spaces, so this is ok) 21:58:24 Although it isn't very informative 21:58:37 i just need to find a good unicode monospaced font 21:58:49 also, it'll be reccomended to use that editor to hack on the interpreter because of the same unicode stuffs ;P 22:00:37 oh yeah, and it'll use a huge, unantialiased, black on white, bold font to avoid any possible ambiguity of characters 22:00:40 it's hard! :P 22:01:50 Well, as long as we don't use the 100.000 chars, and only unambiguous ones, it probably won't be a problem 22:02:47 editing unicode can be hard 22:02:55 an unambigious font like that is vital 22:04:22 the problem is i cannot find a comprehensive *monospace* font 22:06:31 dejavu sans mono doesn't count because it's not nearly as legible enough and doesn't include enough chars 22:06:53 What of Lucida? 22:06:59 It's the most common. 22:07:05 I think. 22:07:09 Lucida Unicode? 22:07:11 That's not monospaced. 22:07:20 and Lucidia Mono is not unicode, iirc 22:07:26 Oh. 22:07:41 (What's monospaced?) 22:08:41 Slereah: ... what 22:09:00 Slereah: coding font. all the letters are the same width. you know? 22:09:00 Yes, i do not know. 22:09:09 Well, now I do. 22:09:27 Slereah: You know... like you wouldn't edit code with Arial... 22:09:33 They look type-writery most of the time.. 22:11:53 Slereah: ⋙ 22:11:57 Can you copy and paste that back to me? 22:12:08 ⋙ 22:12:24 Thanks. 22:12:27 That looks great, I think 22:13:08 Slereah: Try this: ⦀ 22:13:10 Hmm 22:13:14 That one does not display. 22:13:20 Indeed. 22:13:38 Slereah: That previous one looked like >>> to you. correct? 22:14:02 Yes. 22:14:05 looked like >>> to me, anyhow... 22:14:44 Very good. 22:14:57 I am testing out FreeMono Bold 18pt. 22:15:01 It seems like a good fit. 22:21:19 http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/25c9/index.htm brilliant 22:21:30 ◉ 22:22:01 they're both failing here, but I happen to know that Lmoderntt doesn't handle unicode properly 22:22:39 I suppose that it's illegal to scrape that site's images of unicode chars and make them into a font? 22:23:01 timotiis: it's not in utf-8 for mine, xchat is stupid 22:23:20 Sgeo: It uses Code2000. 22:23:20 Which is shareware, anyway. 22:23:20 So it would be very bad. 22:23:37 code2000 is however a very good set of fonts for unicode stuff 22:24:02 ehird`: that wouldn't matter, lmtt probably doesn't have the glyph 22:24:25 timotiis: code2000 isn't monospaced though. 22:24:27 FreeMono is. 22:24:27 anyway, if you're dealing with unicode, why not just reimplement apl and be done with it 22:24:34 that's a reasonable point, admittedly 22:24:40 Does decodeunicode use a different font? 22:24:41 And appears to be good looking at large sizes in bold 22:24:45 and because APL isn't as cool as uniscript, and doesn't use as many chars 22:24:51 Sgeo: beats me 22:25:32 http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2061/index.htm POW! Function application! 22:29:21 :) 22:30:08 :D 22:30:30 Beats ` ! 22:30:31 http://www.decodeunicode.org/en/box_drawing flow control? 22:31:05 hell, you could probably do a whole 2d language with just those 22:31:20 Some sort of circuit emulation? 22:35:35 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:36:17 Sgeo: box drawing will be used for modules 22:36:19 :D 22:36:28 cool 22:39:39 Sgeo: like 22:39:48 you could write a little block which read input in a certain way 22:39:57 then using the box drawing and arrow characters, 'connect' it to another part 22:40:09 (the language will be 2d in some cases.) 22:44:03 WHAT HAS SCIENCE DONE! 22:45:54 Slereah: Made UniScript/whatever it's called 22:46:06 *UniKitten 22:47:21 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 22:47:30 Slereah: Possibly. 22:52:10 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:16:41 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:17:16 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 23:42:38 -!- ivan has left (?).