00:05:38 -!- timotiis has quit ("leaving").
00:47:11 <ehird> http://impomatic.blogspot.com/
00:47:17 <ehird> it's TAOCP in Redcode
00:47:21 <ehird> we need one of them for Brainfuck
01:07:07 <ehird> awesome esolang idea:
01:07:09 <ehird> based on surreal numbers.
01:13:41 <ihope> "Based on surreal numbers" is the idea?
01:16:01 -!- atsampson has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:16:17 -!- atsampson has joined.
01:17:57 <ihope> It'd be interesting to try to compute with Collatz sequences.
01:20:00 <ihope> Start with an integer. Add its left-shift, increment, shift right as far as possible, repeat.
01:21:56 <ihope> Or perhaps an esolang based on neural nets.
01:38:54 <Sukoshi> The latter is an idea I had.
01:42:10 <ihope> We need a really novel idea.
01:42:16 * ihope searches Wikipedia for a really novel idea
01:42:57 <ihope> Really novel idea: Charles C. Comstock. Let's make an esolang based on Charles C. Comstock.
01:45:21 <Slereah> SimonRC: Regular combinators :o
01:48:12 <Slereah> <SimonRC> Slereah: what are these "Schofinkel's combinators"?
01:48:33 <Slereah> I can never remember the spellin
02:04:51 <ihope> An esolang based on Go, how about.
02:06:30 <Slereah> IIRC, the earliest simulations were done on a Go board ":0)
02:06:51 <ihope> We find a Conway's Life universal constructor and make an esolang to control it.
02:07:48 <Slereah> Something like set of rules-input?
02:08:41 <Sukoshi> How about a game of Nomic with a Prolog mirror?
02:09:26 <pikhq> ihope: Step one: universal constructor.
02:09:41 <Slereah> Well, a game of life is defined by the rules governing the life-death of cells
02:09:42 <ihope> Thank you. I'll begin work immediately.
02:10:36 <Sukoshi> A Prolog mirror that we work on continuously.
02:11:04 <ihope> Sukoshi: what do you mean by a mirror?
02:11:26 <Sukoshi> It mirrors the progress of the Nomic game.
02:11:41 <Sukoshi> As in, we write our Nomic laws as clauses in Prolog.
02:11:53 <ihope> Does anyone here have a copy of Winning Ways for your Mathematical Plays?
02:12:06 <ihope> I know of two computer nomics. I don't think either has enough players. :-)
02:12:33 <ehird> WHOA Sukoshi is here
02:12:41 <ehird> we all thought you died :|
02:13:03 <Sukoshi> No, at the moment I'm browsing portions of our school website that shouldn't be browsed.
02:13:08 <ihope> PerlNomic (http://nomic.info/perlnomic/), which I haven't fully understood, and AtNomic, which I haven't taken the time to really look at.
02:13:38 <pikhq> Sukoshi: Hey, you're here again!
02:14:10 <pikhq> I have an OS kernel in progress. :)
02:14:18 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/kernel.tar.bz2
02:15:10 <ehird> pikhq: Challenge: make it run gcc.
02:15:30 <ehird> I know a guy (for small values of 'know') who worked on an OS for 2-3 years and got to the point where binutils&gcc etc ran on it
02:15:35 <ehird> and could compile bash, iirc
02:15:58 <Sukoshi> Darn it. I have to crack this Tomcat password.
02:16:17 <ehird> Sukoshi: Try throwing coffee at it.
02:16:20 <Sukoshi> Maybe I should just sniff the password using the machine farm at school I have control over.
02:17:05 <pikhq> ehird: That's the goal, actually.
02:17:15 <ehird> pikhq: Awesomecakes.
02:17:23 <pikhq> Sukoshi: :) Nice progress on that prank. :D
02:17:34 <ehird> I would start an OS project again if I didn't sux0r at asm
02:17:48 <Sukoshi> The gradebook was the easy part, meh.
02:17:53 <ehird> pikhq: however, I can probably identify EXACTLY which tutorial you are using
02:17:59 <ehird> i see very familiar code
02:18:03 <pikhq> ehird: Except that I'm not using it.
02:18:15 <pikhq> I used it to get the multiboot header, Makefile, and linker script.
02:18:17 <Sukoshi> I have 1 goal fully fulfilled. The second goal partially fulfilled. The third goal is getting some progress.
02:18:25 <pikhq> Everything else, I've been reading up on documentation.
02:18:49 <pikhq> (frankly, that tutorial sucks. 'Just copy this code!!!' *Ugh*.)
02:19:06 <ehird> pikhq: the idea is that you should be able to easily find out what the code doe
02:19:09 <ihope> You're creating a kernel?
02:19:10 <ehird> the info is in the x86 layout stuff
02:19:34 <pikhq> I spent most of the past week figuring out what the fuck to do with the GDT. . .
02:19:37 <ihope> Well, I think there was supposed to be some universal constructor stuff included with Golly.
02:19:43 <ehird> pikhq: Yes, the GDT is fux0red.
02:19:45 <pikhq> If I'd followed that tutorial, I'd be fairly clueless still.
02:19:52 <pikhq> I did it on my own, so I grok it.
02:19:53 <ehird> pikhq: Done the interrupt handlers yet?
02:20:00 <ehird> 435345345 repetitive functions in asm.
02:20:00 <pikhq> Painful, but worth it.
02:20:23 <pikhq> Although I want to read up on nasm's macro features first.
02:20:27 <ehird> pikhq: Um that package is a bit minimal for what I can see
02:20:38 <ehird> Are you sure it was justified to put it in a .tar.bz2 and upload it somewhere? :p
02:21:03 <pikhq> I just want to be able to say 'Oooh, shiny.'
02:21:11 <ehird> pikhq: I think your KPORT_H might break at some point
02:21:17 <ehird> make it a #define?
02:21:41 <pikhq> Use __attribute__((always_inline))? :p
02:21:50 <ehird> return 0xDEADBEEF;
02:22:04 <ehird> (solaris coredump magicnum)
02:22:09 <ihope> Why is the file called kernel.tar.bz2.tar, I wonder...
02:22:31 <pikhq> I think you suck. That's not what's on my server. ;)
02:22:42 <ihope> I delegate the suckiness onto my computer.
02:23:07 <pikhq> I agree with your delegation.
02:23:28 <ehird> pikhq: Once you've got a gcc on there, write your own text editor.
02:23:41 <ehird> Using a pre-written text-editor to develop your OS stuff in your os sux0r.
02:23:44 <ehird> You must write your own!
02:24:01 <ehird> (Before you get gcc running, youc ould make your own c compiler to write a text editor with, or something, too. :p)
02:24:13 <ehird> pikhq: May I suggest a blend of microemacs and non-vim vi?
02:24:55 -!- ihope has set topic: bsmntbombdood missed the orgy. | Fe fi fo funge, I smell the brainfuck of an Englishman. | pastebin - http://pb.eso-std.org/ | Is a topic..
02:25:14 -!- ehird has set topic: bsmntbombdood missed the orgy. | Fe fi fo funge, I smell the brainfuck of an Englishman. | pastebin - http://pb.eso-std.org/ | qdb - http://qdb.eso-std.org/ Is a topic..
02:25:26 <ehird> gotta add non-existant eso-std.org domains before someone does something or other while i write them!
02:26:17 <ihope> You evil, evil persono, you.
02:26:42 * pikhq adds __attribute__((always_inline)) in kport.h
02:26:54 <ehird> don't depend on gcc
02:27:04 <ehird> you could be one of the only modern OSs not to
02:27:14 <ehird> if you write your own cc, you could probably even make it compile your kernel!
02:27:21 <pikhq> There *is* one other OS that doesn't depend upon GCC. . .
02:27:24 <ehird> c'monnnn, make 'em defines or put the definitions in a c file ;)
02:27:29 <ehird> pikhq: what, plan9? :p
02:27:34 <pikhq> Of course, whether Windows is *modern* is a matter of taste. :p
02:27:46 <ehird> i don't really consider windows an os
02:27:59 <pikhq> I consider it a really *bad* VMS clone.
02:28:11 <ehird> Comparing windows to vms?
02:28:16 <pikhq> With Win32 thrown in for God-knows-why.
02:28:36 <ehird> pikhq: Hmm, do you actually use a vcs or are you a archive-up hobo like rodger :p
02:28:48 <pikhq> Windows NT has a biological link to VMS. . .
02:28:53 <pikhq> ehird: ATM, archive-up hobo.
02:29:01 <ehird> pikhq: Git. Srsly.
02:29:05 <pikhq> I plan to set up SVN when I get around to it.
02:29:15 <ihope> Time to award some Patent Titles! Overand is a Scamster. ehird is a Champion. Judofyr is a Minister Without Proposal. pikhq is a Twelve Months Long Service.
02:29:23 <ehird> version control systems without the 'lulz, server' or the 'lulz, molasses' or the 'lulz, in-the-way' parts.
02:29:31 <pikhq> ihope: I don't think I have twelve months yet.
02:29:38 <ihope> Er, Minister Without Portfolio.
02:29:39 <pikhq> I should have six months' coming up in a bit.
02:29:44 * ehird is a Champion! Yaaaaay.
02:30:01 <pikhq> Also: I'm the only Agoran entitled to grant Champion.
02:30:06 <pikhq> And only when someone wins.
02:30:19 <pikhq> I'm also the only person required to *record* a win.
02:30:28 <pikhq> ihope and I are both Agorans.
02:30:33 <pikhq> oerjan is a former Agoran.
02:30:53 <pikhq> www.agoranomic.org
02:30:54 <ihope> And you're a former B'an, and I'm a former former B'an. :-P
02:31:21 <ehird> #esoteric is like the turnpike of the internet
02:31:26 <ehird> the nerdy internet
02:31:30 <ehird> nerdy, mathematical internet
02:31:52 <ihope> We're the smartest people in the world! Kind of.
02:35:22 <pikhq> Via patrino estas patrifikulon.
02:35:38 <ihope> ¿Por qué estamos hablando en otras however-you-want-to-say-"language"-today?
02:36:01 <lament> tu mama esta hablando en otras idiomas
02:36:55 <Sukoshi> Anta no LULZ ga Ookiku natta.
02:37:16 <pikhq> Belgium, man, belgium!
02:38:43 <olsner> yare yare, konna ni natte shimatte...
02:39:12 <pikhq> . . . Okay, that's 3 Japanese speakers here.
02:39:46 <pikhq> Ja, sore ha koko ni sanjin no nihongo wo hanaseru hito ga iru. . .
02:41:55 <pikhq> http://www.verizonmath.com/checkyourmath.htm
02:42:39 <Sukoshi> Kurumayoi ni NOTTE! Bishounen no sonzai wo UBARECHA-U!
02:43:25 <olsner> Sukoshi: henna koto iwanaide yo
02:43:52 <olsner> pikhq: writing boot loaders are we?
02:44:15 <ihope> Yay, someone spoke English!
02:44:17 * SimonRC tries Japanese too: box box box box box box box box box box
02:44:22 <Sukoshi> Anyone here play with Haiku, by the by?
02:44:38 <ihope> Neko pan wa desu desu pan wa desu... um... domo arigato.
02:45:01 <Sukoshi> Pan bread is. Pan bread is. Many thanks.
02:45:33 <Sukoshi> pikhq: How is the State of the Development there?
02:45:54 <ehird> I don't speak Japanese, but I ought to, because I've wanted to for years
02:45:56 <pikhq> Sukoshi: I have it set up to realise the difference between user-mode and kernel-mode.
02:46:02 <ehird> Also, because 3 people is practically *peer pressure*! :D
02:46:11 <pikhq> And it makes me wonder what doing, say, jmp 0x08:0x00 would do.
02:46:37 <Sukoshi> Well I heard threads were there like water.
02:46:50 <olsner> ehird: learning japanese gives you access to whole internets full of desu
02:46:55 <pikhq> I'm going to test it.
02:47:56 <ehird> olsner: just what i've always wanted
02:48:49 <pikhq> Apparently, gas doesn't much like long jumps.
02:49:01 <olsner> as an added bonus, you'll be able to more fully enjoy your wednesdesus
02:49:09 <Sukoshi> pikhq: Bootstrap a low-level FORTH onto it.
02:49:42 <ehird> olsner: and desu the desus on the desuweb?
02:50:25 <pikhq> Why can't I do that? :(
02:50:45 <olsner> are you sure you want to jump to address 0?
02:50:46 <ehird> olsner: Does it empower the desus on my Haskell desu?
02:50:52 <pikhq> olsner: Just testing.
02:51:00 <pikhq> Technically, that's address 0 in kernel mode.
02:51:20 <pikhq> Well, assuming they have GDT[8] for their ring 0 code segment. . .
02:51:25 * pikhq pulls up the Linux source
02:51:41 <Sukoshi> Are you testing wiht QEMU, pikhq ?
02:52:02 <ehird> pikhq: try linux 0.1
02:52:05 <ehird> it's very understandable
02:52:26 <pikhq> Because I use Gentoo, and Qemu still doesn't build with GCC 4.
02:53:02 <pikhq> All I want is the bit that loads the GDT.
02:53:27 <pikhq> Maybe it's in the kernel entry point?
02:53:35 <ehird> pikhq: Gentoo? aarrgh
02:54:03 <ehird> f unroll loops! f unroll loooops!
02:55:03 * olsner knows too little of the specifics to be of much help
03:05:49 <olsner> lol, I believe I've just found the bug in the bootloader/"operating system" I was working on in 2003
03:06:43 <pikhq> Well, *that's* bizarre.
03:06:48 <pikhq> Linux has a vm86 handler.
03:07:04 <olsner> wait no... but it looked as if I'd mixed up dw and dd and produced a totally bogus jump address for jumping into PM
03:09:12 -!- ehird has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
03:09:46 <pikhq> Linux has the world's *worst* way of going back into the BIOS to reboot.
03:10:16 <pikhq> They have a *char[]* of bytes that represent the machine code required to go back to 16-bit mode.
03:11:58 -!- ehird has joined.
03:15:04 <lament> so i'm reading HTDP... and it seems so far that Haskell would be a more appropriate language for the book
03:15:48 <lament> but it didn't get to the macros yet (i don't know if it ever does)
03:20:19 <SimonRC> such bad taste, yet so funny: http://img.lulz.net/src/09_podborka_36.jpg
03:22:19 <lament> very hard to tell black pieces apart
03:24:00 <Slereah> "Combining a rabbit-ears with a spot to form a rabbit is not permitted, although the programmer is free to use it should he find an EBCDIC reader which will properly translate a 12-3-7-8 punch."
03:28:21 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
03:29:24 -!- ehird has quit (No route to host).
03:54:33 -!- Corun has joined.
04:18:14 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
04:21:37 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
04:34:38 -!- slereah_ has joined.
04:35:48 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
04:41:37 <Sukoshi> Well, 05:30 isn't bad, but 04:30 is.
04:42:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
04:43:18 <pikhq> 05:30 just implies a nocturnal schedule.
04:44:24 <Sukoshi> Depends if you wake up at 08:30 like I do.
04:44:43 * pikhq wakes up at 06:00, usually.
04:45:07 -!- slereah__ has joined.
05:16:37 -!- slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:57:13 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
06:59:34 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
06:59:34 -!- atsampson has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
06:59:34 -!- faxathisia has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
06:59:34 -!- AnMaster has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
07:02:06 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
07:02:06 -!- atsampson has joined.
07:02:06 -!- faxathisia has joined.
07:02:06 -!- AnMaster has joined.
07:13:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:02:25 <slereah__> "The principal obstacle to an authentic emulation of the Engine is that, in modern colloquial parlance, it was mankind's first bold venture into the domain of vapourware. The Engine was designed, drafted, described, discussed, and debated, decade after decade, but it was never actually built."
08:03:47 <Sukoshi> Like a lot of things on this channel? ;)
08:04:46 <slereah__> Plenty of ideas thrown around to end up in the trash!
08:04:56 <slereah__> But we usually don't spend 30 years on it
08:11:43 -!- Judofyr has joined.
08:14:58 -!- ehird has joined.
08:15:02 <ehird> when i left here before
08:15:06 <ehird> my intention was to sleep
08:15:13 <ehird> i would like to make it clear that this did not happen
08:31:44 <ehird> By the time I was ready it was after 7
08:31:50 <ehird> No point sleeping after a time like that.
08:37:28 <Sukoshi> Hm. I wish pikhq was around.
08:37:55 <slereah__> Be careful whatr you wish for, or it might just happen :o
08:42:41 <faxathisia> squaring the circle is easy assuming π = 4
08:43:24 <slereah__> Or just using your ruler, with the pi graduation
08:44:28 <slereah__> Or just be a dick like Kronecker, and say that irrationals don't exist.
08:47:16 <faxathisia> When Lindemann proved that π is transcendental in 1882 Kronecker said
08:47:17 <faxathisia> Of what use is your beautiful investigation of π. Why study such problems when irrational numbers do not exist.
08:48:55 <slereah__> Cantor also had problems with Kronecker.
08:49:01 <slereah__> Because Kronecker was a giant dick.
08:49:15 <faxathisia> construct a square with the same area as a circle
08:49:19 <slereah__> Sukoshi: You take a circle, and you transform it into a square with the same perimeter
08:50:07 <slereah__> Kronecker had this notions that only integers really existed.
08:50:14 <faxathisia> I think Kronecker is right, intuitionism is great..
08:50:31 <faxathisia> (there are finite constructions of the reals now)
08:50:55 <faxathisia> but it's fine to take axioms and construct them later on
08:51:57 <faxathisia> it's just that, if you decide some new axiom "every set has a lowest upper bound" or some-such, without having constructed it from a consistent logic, how can you know that you still have consistency?
08:55:01 <ehird> slereah__: [08:49] <slereah__> Because Kronecker was a giant dick.
08:55:07 <ehird> My mind read 'was' as 'had'
08:55:11 <ehird> Because of sleep-lack
09:00:25 <Sukoshi> faxathisia: What if I got into law?
09:00:34 <Sukoshi> I'm just looking for an opinion here :P
09:01:21 <faxathisia> I don't know, there must be something to it.. one my school friends who basically a genious has dropped out of a math course to do politics and I think he wants to get into law
09:01:26 <slereah__> Does it involve neat uniforms and a lawgiver, and killing mutants?
09:02:09 <Sukoshi> I'm considering law. I still love science, but I love law too and am good at it too.
09:02:18 <ehird> Sukoshi: you cannot abadon
09:02:21 <Sukoshi> faxathisia: Think of it this way. Law is logic.
09:02:43 <Sukoshi> Except it's not just horn clauses in theory. It's horn clauses in practice.
09:04:30 <Sukoshi> (Come on. You had that coming.)
09:04:55 <Sukoshi> faxathisia: At least, that's how I view law. From a logic perspective.
09:05:18 <ehird> S.C.I.E.N.C.E. SCIENCE
09:05:30 <ehird> S.C.I.E.N.C.E. = SCIENCE CIENCE IENCE ENCE NCE C E
09:05:37 <Sukoshi> Stop saying that while I'm hacking Java code. You're making me feel dirty :P
09:06:49 <slereah__> Saying it is related to logic is lies :o
09:06:55 <faxathisia> (anyone know this ? http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~fp/lollimon/ )
09:07:16 <ehird> Sukoshi: The Java is the gateway to EVIL and SUPERSTITION
09:07:23 <ehird> NATURE'S FOUR-DAY HARMONIOUS TIME CUBE
09:07:29 <Sukoshi> It's actually just incredibly boring.
09:07:47 <Sukoshi> And when you realize Swing should have been decapitated due to horrible design issues, you feel more worthy using the language \o/
09:08:08 <Sukoshi> But I have an exam to study for, so meh.
09:09:20 <Sukoshi> GTK is great. I heard QT is a lot better though.
09:09:59 <faxathisia> I have a feeling that McCLIM is really really good .. if you know it inside out
09:10:14 <faxathisia> but I don't know this, not used it enough
09:11:49 <Sukoshi> I've heard McCLIM suffered from overkill syndrome.
09:12:14 <Sukoshi> I love how simple/abstract GTK is.
09:13:24 <faxathisia> also HTML is useful sometimes (by running a local webserver)
09:13:41 <Sukoshi> (defgeneric add (container widget)) <-- That's basically the work horse of GTK.
09:14:07 <ehird> Sukoshi: HOWEVER, gtk sux0r in its actual widgetness.
09:14:12 <ehird> e.g. see: gtk+os x
09:14:23 <Sukoshi> Oh, you mean cross-platform issues?
09:14:34 <ehird> and i personally don't like the look-'n-feel on x11
09:14:36 <Sukoshi> I don't doubt that. It's meant to be a Linux thing, heh.
09:14:36 <ehird> but that's just me
09:14:46 <ehird> Sukoshi: still the windows support is passable
09:15:30 <ehird> and, although that 'add container widgt' is simple
09:15:33 <ehird> a nested structure model is far better
09:15:47 <ehird> for languages with no brain -- like c -- you can build it up with some kind of add operation ;)
09:15:56 <ehird> Sukoshi: it's like this:
09:16:10 <ehird> totally tedious way of working
09:16:17 <ehird> when widgets are inherently nested
09:16:23 <ehird> they should be treated as such
09:16:32 <ehird> not as matryoshka dolls
09:17:20 <faxathisia> it's just the difference between imperative and declarative
09:19:35 <Sukoshi> I think I get what you mean. Give the properties of different layers of a nested structure rather than building up the nest yourself?
09:19:49 <Sukoshi> Swing attempts that with its content panes.
09:20:02 <ehird> the 'add' thingy is just a way to build up one of those structures because you can't actually do it in C..
09:20:13 <ehird> Sukoshi: well, come on, Swing anything is not a good comparison
09:20:25 <ehird> really, gui toolkits right now are unbearable
09:20:26 <Sukoshi> I like the flexibility of a generic (add)
09:20:32 <ehird> cocoa might be ok, i haven't tried it
09:20:43 <ehird> but from what i've seen, they all overcomplicate the simple stuff and oversimplify the complicated stuff
09:20:54 <ehird> & think in terms of C or some other similar language only
09:21:09 <ehird> instead of having a higher-level abstract data model with the c/whatever imperative-style implementation being decoupled
09:24:36 <ehird> Sukoshi: But not structured.
09:24:47 <ehird> It is too implementation-centric to be the basis of a toolkit.
09:25:13 <ehird> because it is tied into the imperative style
09:25:14 <Sukoshi> Why can't it be used in every implementation?
09:25:18 <ehird> add this, then add this
09:25:33 <ehird> instead, the toolkit's design should be on a nested, declarative structure
09:25:34 <Sukoshi> What structure would you propose then?
09:25:42 <ehird> in a functional or similar language, it would just be the nested tree
09:25:45 <ehird> sure, for C, you need add().
09:25:49 <Sukoshi> See, I've never had a bone with mixing functional or declarative with imperative.
09:25:50 <ehird> that's just an implementation detail.
09:25:59 <ehird> the actual model should be based on nested structures,
09:26:04 <ehird> because in the end that's what it will produce.
09:26:15 <ehird> Sukoshi: Well, yes, except that using XML for a gui is a henious crime :)
09:26:17 <Sukoshi> XML is horrible, but that point aside.
09:26:30 <ehird> Also, s-expressions might be a non-horrible example, if you're in need of one. :p
09:29:49 <faxathisia> XML should be fine as a file format, if you have a GUI program to edit GUIs
09:33:02 * faxathisia tries to learn lollimon by staring at example code
09:34:56 <ehird> faxathisia: mcclim is kinda eww
09:41:30 <faxathisia> from ##C 'The first rule about large software projects is "don't make large software projects".'
09:42:54 <ehird> faxathisia: ##c is the source of such wisdom and clarity
09:42:58 <ehird> and is totally not filled with rambling idiots
09:43:53 <ehird> faxathisia: i could probably rank ##c-ers by idiocy, elitisim and plain retardedness
09:44:01 <ehird> you'd probably be at the bottom, though :)
09:44:05 <ehird> (#1: poppavic. no competition.)
09:44:22 <ehird> someone should make a random number generator based on poppavic's 'sense-o-meter'
09:58:42 <ehird> faxathisia: what's that
09:58:50 <ehird> I like elegant nondeterminism
09:59:29 <ehird> googling lollimon gives me an irc lo of #haskell
09:59:30 <ehird> Gwern"lollimon - gotta rape'em all..."
09:59:40 <ehird> i laughed far too much at that
09:59:49 <ehird> early morning... kind of when you have not slept :-P
11:00:48 <Sukoshi> 19 lines of variable declarations.
11:00:53 <Sukoshi> Heh, this class is made of win.
11:01:02 <ehird> Sukoshi: Your whole family is made of meat.
11:02:30 <Sukoshi> Nah. It has side effects faxathisia, so it is made of FALE :P
11:02:52 <ehird> it desperately tries to be a functional language
11:02:54 <ehird> but fails miserably
11:02:58 * faxathisia sits out till haskell enthusiasm dies out
11:03:44 <ehird> Hey, I'm not a haskell fanboi
11:05:13 -!- RedDak has joined.
11:07:46 <faxathisia> Sukoshi & ehird, you should read Dijkstra - A Discipline of Programming
11:07:47 <faxathisia> if you think side effects are not good
11:08:09 <faxathisia> (or if you just want to read a good book)
11:08:12 <ehird> faxathisia: Hey, I do like side effects.
11:08:18 <ehird> I just also like Haskell.
11:08:18 <Sukoshi> But hey, it's by Dijkstra.
11:08:34 <Sukoshi> I got into Haskell for a while. I left. I tried to get back in, but failed.
11:08:40 <ehird> I like both styles of programming
11:08:49 <ehird> though I tend to think functionally, and code it out imperatively
11:09:27 <Sukoshi> I sincerely wish Java had structs.
11:09:33 <Sukoshi> Why, oh why, does Java not have structs.
11:09:46 <Sukoshi> Actually wait. Why, oh why, does Java have to have one public class per file.
11:09:46 <ehird> Sukoshi: Because Java is retarded.
11:09:59 <Sukoshi> This is studying for a test that uses Java.
11:10:04 <Sukoshi> So the app needs to be in Java.
11:10:44 <faxathisia> ehird: A haskell implementation of lollimon would be a good thing :O
11:10:47 <ehird> Sukoshi: You could decompile Scala's output bytecode into Java.
11:11:21 <Sukoshi> Plus hey, some people might find this app useful.
11:11:28 <Sukoshi> It's a Direct Connect client.
11:11:45 -!- Judofyr has quit.
11:12:08 -!- Judofyr has joined.
11:14:56 -!- faxathisia has quit ("-").
11:15:42 <Sukoshi> I'd be a weeaboo if I actually like Japanese weather or Japanese politics.
11:15:54 <Sukoshi> ... Or Japanese traditional family life, or Japanese social life, or ....
11:16:00 <Sukoshi> Well you get the picture :)
11:17:23 <slereah__> Well, that's weeaboo enough for me :D
11:17:40 -!- Judofyr has quit.
11:17:58 <ehird> JAPANESE WEATHER IS SUPERIOR TO WEATHER IN ALL OTHER COUNTRIES
11:19:18 <Sukoshi> Aww. Gundam 00 is fun and interesting and political.
11:19:37 <Sukoshi> I mean come on, I'm on the side of the HRL.
11:19:46 <Sukoshi> Go Socialism! Yah! Yah! Yah!
11:23:09 <ehird> JAPANESE TRADITIONAL FAMILY LIFE IS SUPERIOR TO JAPANESE TRADITIONAL FAMILY LIFE IN ALL OTHER COUNTRIES
11:23:51 -!- Sukoshi has left (?).
11:23:57 * slereah__ can't think of one jap scientist :o
11:24:23 <ehird> JAPANESE SCIENCE IS SUPERIOR TO JAPANESE SCIENCE IN ALL OTHER COUNTRIES
11:24:50 <ehird> JAPANESE RECYCLING --
11:25:28 <ehird> JAPANESE GETTING IN TROUBLE --
11:29:28 <ehird> JAPANESE SUSPENSION
11:30:52 <ehird> <pikhq>They have a *char[]* of bytes that represent the machine code required to go back to 16-bit mode.
11:30:54 <ehird> pikhq: that's not stupid
11:31:03 <ehird> when you want arbitary machine code, you store it in char*
11:32:39 <ehird> i keep sseeing things i said
11:32:43 <ehird> which i think 'crap that was like two days ago'
11:32:51 <ehird> but it was in this awake-session because aaah i've been up too long :<
11:51:42 -!- faxathisia has joined.
11:54:29 <ehird> 'INTERCAL and Malbolge (and perhaps Java) are steps toward the ultimate barrier of programming. But they don't rely on *chance*.'
11:54:44 <ehird> that has to be the most devilish language i evevr came up with and then forgot
11:55:18 <ehird> slereah__: sry. that's basically the onlny thing left of it
11:55:22 <ehird> I never made the catual languae i think :(
11:55:35 <ehird> I apologize for my spelling, I can barely type.
11:55:54 <ehird> sdfjkhsjkgdfg i keep typing 'cat ..'
11:56:05 <ehird> be hellish at programming, but rely on *chance* for many operations
11:59:49 <ehird> Joy quotations AREN'T lists, are they?
11:59:53 <ehird> for one simple reason --
12:00:04 <ehird> 'foo' isn't representable as any object in Joy
12:00:09 <ehird> thus quotations must be of an AST instances
12:00:14 <ehird> which is Name | Literal
12:00:18 <ehird> where Literal = Object
12:06:03 -!- jix has joined.
12:22:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
12:39:02 -!- timotiis has joined.
13:27:47 <slereah__> Even the passenger gets in trouble!
13:27:51 * oerjan saw you running out of english alphabet, so he assisted
13:30:58 <faxathisia> http://www.lawlforkids.com/d/3058-1/wait.png
13:31:29 -!- oerjan has quit ("I got the last word BWAHAHA").
13:31:51 <slereah__> The strangest thing is that kid that yells "Fight!"
13:32:03 <slereah__> Like he's Shao Khan from Mortal Kombat.
14:09:05 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
14:09:13 -!- jix has joined.
14:59:00 -!- slereah_ has joined.
14:59:59 -!- slereah__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:11:12 -!- slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:12:13 -!- Slereah has joined.
15:23:41 <pikhq> ehird: Sure it's stupid.
15:24:04 <pikhq> Just because there's some way of using it doesn't make it less stupid.
15:24:12 <pikhq> The asm keyword is in GCC for a reason.
15:24:17 <pikhq> And yes, Linux uses it.
15:30:44 <ehird> pikhq: I assure you there will be a good reason.
15:30:48 <ehird> WHy not post on the lkml?
15:31:22 -!- Corun has joined.
16:12:45 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:30:18 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:16:06 <ehird> knuthtex is a single 1mb source file
17:18:20 <olsner> but it's literal programming, so it's easy to read! *cough*
17:19:13 <ehird> olsner: actually the pascal has so many embedded WEB instructions that it's almost impossible to even if you filter out the docs
17:20:14 <ehird> what's that really trivial pascal dialect thingy?
17:20:15 <olsner> heh, yeah, I've found it a golden example of failed application of literate programming
17:20:25 <ehird> the bnf is just a page or so long
17:20:29 <ehird> olsner: thank god nobody uses knuthtex, eh? ;)
17:23:07 <ehird> so if you imagine PL/0 + parameters to functions + some control structures (repeat...while, etc) + arrays..
17:23:11 <ehird> knuth would be overjoyed ;)
17:30:35 <AnMaster> slightly off topic, but since the project I need this for is an befunge interpreter in C I think it is on topic
17:30:42 <AnMaster> anyone know a good sparse matrix library for C? The ones I found are all C++ :/
17:32:19 <olsner> this channel isn't often on topic anyway... besides, if befunge is involved in any way whatsoever it's definitely on topic :P
17:33:47 <Slereah> Hell, what is the topic anyway!
17:34:46 <olsner> something like "Fe fi fo funge, I smell the brainfuck of an Englishman." seems to be the current topic if the /topic is to be believed
17:35:05 <olsner> btw, qdb.eso-std.org doesn't work though mentioned in the topic
17:35:23 <AnMaster> olsner, but you don't know an answer to my question?
17:36:07 <AnMaster> I need some kind of sparse matrix for funge-space
17:36:10 <olsner> I suppose you want to find the people who know fortran, and maybe they'll also know how to do what they do in C
17:36:59 <olsner> hmm, I guess linear algebra/numerics => fortran in my database of stereotypes
17:37:15 <AnMaster> ah. but well this isn't algebra
17:37:26 <ehird> olsner: .eso-std.org is not all up yet
17:38:26 <oklopol> oh, you don't actually have it yet?
17:38:30 <ehird> i have eso-std.org
17:38:34 <ehird> but i cba to set it all up
17:39:21 <oklopol> thought it was a name server delay or something
17:39:58 <olsner> laziness got the best of you, eh? someone needs to have his thunks forced...
17:42:18 <ehird> that sounds painful
17:42:48 <AnMaster> ehird, do you have any idea about sparse matrix in C?
17:49:57 <ehird> faxathisia: hey you
17:50:00 <ehird> debug my prolog lisp :(
17:50:17 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/dKbjcr51.html
17:51:54 <faxathisia> You know [lam|E|A|C] = [lam| (E'|'A'|'C)] ?
17:52:13 <faxathisia> and you could write lam(E, A, C) instead
17:52:29 <ehird> faxathisia: err, ok
17:52:32 <ehird> then what i want is
17:52:44 <ehird> but can you pattern match calls in prolog?
17:52:46 <ehird> well that changes everything
17:53:10 <ehird> but, if i can pattern match on func calls, faxathisia ..
17:53:25 <olsner> ehird: prolog doesn't have function calls, you construct expressions which you can match on
17:53:31 <ehird> it was a metaph000r
17:53:59 <olsner> metaphor? mispresentation of facts! :P
17:54:19 <ehird> faxathisia: do you like my lack of spaces by the way.
17:54:45 <ehird> faxathisia: arglists
17:55:11 <faxathisia> No you aren't that's perfectly acceptable
17:55:32 <ehird> faxathisia: any comments on my prolog style?
17:55:34 <ehird> i think it's pretty neat
17:55:44 <ehird> i mean, you even get undefined symbol and shiz -> No, for free
17:57:00 <faxathisia> well you should probably be aware of write_canonical
17:57:24 <olsner> it's funny how prolog just answers your buggy programs with "No." like some zen master
17:58:24 <ehird> faxathisia: I can't do "Y is cons(A,B)"
17:58:43 <olsner> maybe you're mixing up is and =?
18:04:46 <oklopol> why is it that way around?
18:06:09 <faxathisia> why is = a reflexive, symmetric, transitive relation and is/2 performs computation the assignment?
18:06:33 <olsner> because prolog is about pattern matching and unification rather than about doing actual operations... so arithmetic is exiled into 'is' while '=' does unification
18:06:57 <faxathisia> It's absolutely idiotic and brain damaging to use = for assignment, like C and other languages
18:07:05 <Slereah> faxathisia: Because arrows are ugly in ASCII
18:07:50 <oklopol> well, indeed, = should be used for both
18:08:44 <oklopol> so "is" is actual assignment?
18:09:01 <oklopol> why would it not make sense?
18:09:03 <olsner> rather, it's unification with the result of arithmetic or something like that
18:09:10 <faxathisia> A is B. %% Evaluate B as if it were some arithmetical expression then unify the result with A
18:09:22 <oklopol> and how is that not the same as what = does?
18:09:39 <olsner> normal unification does no modification whatsoever on either expression
18:09:43 <faxathisia> so 2 is 1 + 1. is actually calculating, whereas 2 = 1 + 1 fails a just like how dog = cat fails
18:09:45 <oklopol> do something to make left operand equal right operand :|
18:10:23 <olsner> X = Y+3 basically builds a data structure (Plus Y 3) then unifies that with X
18:10:27 <faxathisia> In math .. when you write =, it's an equivalence relation
18:10:32 <olsner> note there's no evaluation there
18:10:51 <oklopol> in which situations would "=" and "is" make a different result, but both make sense?
18:10:53 <faxathisia> which means x=x, x=y -> y=x and x=y->y=z->x=z
18:10:53 <Slereah> Is there even a mathematical symbol for assignment?
18:11:29 <faxathisia> but some idiot thought they'd abuse the notation and use = for something completly unlike an equivalence relation and confuse millions
18:12:01 <Slereah> Where did you get that statistic?
18:12:05 <oklopol> faxathisia: we all cry about that every night, now answer mine!
18:13:04 <faxathisia> The abstract syntax of Prolog is, Term ::= atom | Variable | functor(Term, ..., Term)
18:13:22 <faxathisia> When you write something like X + 3, that's sugar for '+'(X, 3)
18:14:55 <faxathisia> so anyway, writing Y is 7 + 3. % Prolog sticks 7 + 3 into some turing machine at this point, then unifies the result (10) with Y
18:15:43 <faxathisia> but if you write e.g. X + 3 = 7 + Y. %% It's just a logical statement of equivalence, which happens to succeed, unifying X with 7 and Y with 3
18:16:12 <oklopol> what does y = 7 + 3 do then?
18:16:20 <oklopol> i just see all this as equations.
18:17:05 <oklopol> is there a situation where these unevaluated expressions are actually useful?
18:17:20 <oklopol> is it just math prolog does not evaluate, or is it all functions?
18:17:28 <oklopol> and you know what i mean by functions.
18:17:53 <oklopol> what are these situations,btw?
18:18:01 <faxathisia> There is no computation at all in Prolog (except these rare cases like is and IO..)
18:18:26 <olsner> those "functions" are more like haskell's constructors ... it's basically an AST you pattern match on
18:20:28 <oklopol> guess you cannot actually write a function like + anyway.
18:20:30 <faxathisia> peano_add(X, s Y, s Z) :- peano_add(X, Y, Z).
18:20:44 <faxathisia> peano_add(s s s o, s s s s s s s o, Y).
18:21:04 <faxathisia> and it will do Y = 10 (except it's peano encoded)
18:21:23 <faxathisia> peano_add(A, B, s s s s s s s s s s o).
18:21:38 <faxathisia> and it will describe any A, B which sum to 10
18:21:40 <oklopol> i always thought a prolog a + b means something like add(a, b, RES0): RES0 in the expression
18:22:28 <faxathisia> + is just some infix operator, a + b = '+'(a, b)
18:22:50 <oklopol> i think it's better my way :-)
18:24:57 <faxathisia> X ++ [c] = [a,b,c]. % to find out X = [a,b]
18:25:27 <oklopol> then how is it not that a + 1 = 3 means a = 2?
18:25:35 <oklopol> that's the exact same thing
18:25:44 <faxathisia> because (X ++ [c] = [a,b,c]) = '++'(X, '='([c], [a,b,c]))
18:25:55 <faxathisia> now what you have is ++ at the top level
18:26:07 <faxathisia> and everything inside is just abstract syntax
18:26:22 <faxathisia> It's not computed, because there is no computation in Prolog
18:26:52 <oklopol> i read that as X ++ ([c] = [a,b,c])
18:26:52 <faxathisia> where you traverse the structure evaluating every paremeter first
18:27:10 <faxathisia> yeah that's why I choose such a high fixity for ++
18:27:51 <oklopol> i guess i may be totally wrong in thinking prolog equations mean roughly "find values for variables so that equations are true"
18:28:02 <oklopol> in that case i just don't like the language
18:28:08 <oklopol> which is kinda hard to argue :P
18:28:36 <faxathisia> "find values for variables so that equations are true" is totally wrong
18:29:44 <oklopol> but you can write a lot thinking it works like that
18:32:15 <oklopol> faxathisia: what's wrong with that, where does it fail?
18:33:07 <faxathisia> You cannot enjoy writing code with that mindset
18:34:11 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
18:34:11 -!- tejeez has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
18:34:11 -!- Deewiant has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
18:34:11 -!- jix has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
18:34:12 -!- lament has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
18:34:26 <oklopol> not entirely, distinction of "=" and "is" doesn't make much sense thinking that way
18:34:35 -!- jix has joined.
18:34:35 -!- fizzie has joined.
18:34:35 -!- Deewiant has joined.
18:34:35 -!- tejeez has joined.
18:34:35 -!- lament has joined.
18:35:23 <faxathisia> doing lots of numerical work in Prolog is not good
18:36:27 <Slereah> Displaying 1 to 7 (of 7 products) Pages:
18:36:56 <oklopol> btw is there a prolog bot :-)
18:37:24 <oklopol> guess i could just check the userlist
18:38:41 <faxathisia> It's printing out a derivation of running a metacircular query
18:39:35 <Slereah> Heh. Love the logical symbols with slashes
18:49:49 -!- timmytiptoe has joined.
19:17:37 <Slereah> I ran out of chars for s, so here's a poster : http://www.mathematicianspictures.com/math_images/ADA_20x30r01_275w30=MATH_P_LOVE_R01_THUMB.JPG
19:19:50 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:19:50 -!- tejeez has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:19:50 -!- Deewiant has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:19:50 -!- timmytiptoe has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:19:52 -!- lament has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:19:52 -!- jix has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:20:26 -!- timmytiptoe has joined.
19:20:26 -!- jix has joined.
19:20:26 -!- fizzie has joined.
19:20:26 -!- Deewiant has joined.
19:20:26 -!- tejeez has joined.
19:20:26 -!- lament has joined.
19:23:07 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:23:07 -!- tejeez has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:23:07 -!- Deewiant has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:23:08 -!- lament has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:23:08 -!- jix has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:23:10 -!- timmytiptoe has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:23:29 -!- timmytiptoe has joined.
19:23:29 -!- jix has joined.
19:23:29 -!- fizzie has joined.
19:23:29 -!- Deewiant has joined.
19:23:29 -!- tejeez has joined.
19:23:29 -!- lament has joined.
19:27:19 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:27:19 -!- tejeez has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:27:19 -!- Deewiant has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:27:21 -!- lament has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:27:21 -!- jix has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:27:22 -!- timmytiptoe has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:28:02 -!- timmytiptoe has joined.
19:28:02 -!- jix has joined.
19:28:02 -!- fizzie has joined.
19:28:02 -!- Deewiant has joined.
19:28:02 -!- tejeez has joined.
19:28:02 -!- lament has joined.
19:33:39 <pikhq> Grr. Why does my computer think it's still MST?
19:43:42 -!- timmytiptoe has quit ("Leaving").
19:58:30 -!- slereah_ has joined.
19:58:52 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:13:47 <ehird> Halp. who knows something that can convert a png file into ansi?
20:14:23 <slereah_> Wouldn't an ASCII image generator do the trick?
20:14:51 <ehird> As in with colour codes
20:15:06 <ehird> butit's ncurses thingy
20:15:08 <ehird> it can't dump to afile
20:23:02 <ehird> <whoever was interested>: #kilbot
20:26:44 -!- slereah_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:27:00 -!- slereah_ has joined.
20:35:20 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:03:48 -!- ehird has changed nick to a.
21:03:53 -!- a has changed nick to ehird.
21:07:52 <ehird> "As a rule, I dont use Perl-based shite, so Ack is off the table right off the bat. Anything that eliminates the usage of probably the worst programming language ever conceived is a good step forward in my book."
21:08:10 <ehird> I'll ignore this decent software because I don't like Perl and it affects me! What do you mean I'm insecure??
21:10:40 <olsner> ack excluded source files for me, and iirc did some seriously weird shit when used with cygwin, so I've gone back to grep -Ir
21:11:41 <ehird> 'I won't use ack because it's Perl HEY I READ THIS INTERNET ARTICLE IT SAID PERL SUCKS AND RUBY IS AWESOME!! DO YOU KNOW ABOUT RUBY?? I AM GOING TO KILL PERL!! I WON'T USE ACK IT'S PERL. HEY EVERYONE, NEW PROJECT! RUBYACK. IT'S ACK BUT IN RUBY. OH WAIT WOW THIS ARC THING LOOKS PRETTY GOOD. ..........
21:18:30 <pikhq> Of course, Ack is more awful than Perl. :p
21:18:45 <ehird> pikhq: Ack is a grep replcaement. I don't see the comparison basis. :p
21:18:59 <pikhq> ehird: Perl *can* be used in that place.
21:19:17 <pikhq> Of course, Perl can also be used for everything else. . .
21:19:21 <pikhq> And still be unreadable.
21:19:28 <ehird> pikhq: egobfi pipeline is my grep
21:19:40 <pikhq> I have slaves to do that for me.
21:19:50 <ehird> sometimes i just evaluate the regular expressions with _my mind_, though
21:20:36 <ehird> olsner: EgoBot's brainfuck implementation. Rating: 'pretty good'.
21:20:41 <olsner> ehird: hmm, and how many megabytes per second can your mind scan?
21:20:57 <ehird> bff.c is arguably better for sheer speed (and we all know that's what matters) but egobfi has more tweaky options
21:21:26 <olsner> so, you write brainfuck programs rather than grep and regexps?
21:21:37 <ehird> i compile them with _my mind_
21:22:03 <ehird> i just _stare_ at the computer and it spawns egobfi for me with the right program
21:22:03 <olsner> wow, _your mind_ sure sounds powerful :P
21:22:30 <olsner> I bet oleg has such powers over ghc, if rumours are any indication
21:22:30 <ehird> what's _your mind_?
21:22:35 <slereah_> ehird is the next step in evoluton
21:22:55 <olsner> yes, of course, _my mind_
21:23:01 <ehird> slereah_: Bu..but reddit says that's meant to be Ron Paul!
21:23:07 <ehird> HOW COULD REDDIT LIE TO ME :(
21:23:25 <olsner> I'm thinking about getting a _comind_ with secret category-theory powers at some point
21:24:22 <ehird> olsner: wouldn't a comind take power from _my mind_?
21:24:27 <ehird> since it is the opposite of _my mind_
21:24:53 <olsner> it would draw power from the co-universe, so no
21:25:19 <oerjan> a comind is an unthinking device
21:25:35 <olsner> I would have to share that power with the other cominds of course, but there aren't too many, so I think I'd be fine
21:25:41 <ehird> oerjan: some things cannot be unthunked
21:25:44 <ehird> like infinite lists
21:26:32 <ehird> it was part of my joke
21:27:27 <oerjan> i am merely correcting your grammar. think, thank, thunk.
21:28:08 -!- BMeph has joined.
21:31:06 <ehird> who here knows LyX
21:34:45 * olsner relies on his carpals for latex hacking
21:35:10 <ehird> yesh, well TeX is complex
21:35:14 <ehird> and LaTeX is bloated
21:35:21 <ehird> lyx's produced source files are even nice and readable
21:35:38 -!- calamari has joined.
21:49:30 <AnMaster> however, I won't answer any question if you haven't read and done the tutorial first
21:50:30 -!- atsampso1 has joined.
21:50:50 <ehird> woot i've almost been awake 31hrs
21:50:58 <ehird> AnMaster: the html output is broken
21:51:04 <ehird> it outputs soem kind of prettyprinted text
21:52:28 <AnMaster> ehird, just tried it, it looks ok?
21:53:07 <ehird> AnMaster: i get somethuign like this
21:53:09 <AnMaster> oh and it did a horrible job on equations
21:53:17 <ehird> The Brainfuck Programming Language
21:53:18 <ehird> Brainfuck is a minimal esoteric programming
21:53:21 <ehird> plaintext foramtinged
21:53:30 <ehird> but iwth html entityioes
21:54:12 <AnMaster> would need some post processing but quite ok
21:54:16 <ehird> AnMaster: i got into view->html
21:54:21 <ehird> and it gives me a n html page with that source
21:54:27 <ehird> don't you undestantd what i'm saying :|
21:54:32 <ehird> i click html, it gives me plaintetxt
21:54:44 <ehird> iwas using view->html
21:54:47 -!- slereah__ has joined.
21:54:47 <ehird> because there was view->pdf
21:55:43 <AnMaster> ehird, if it is an older version, try upgrading
21:55:48 <ehird> mac /Applications/LyX-1.5.0-beta2.
21:55:51 <AnMaster> also it could be a TeX problem
21:56:03 <ehird> blame the fscking ftp seorver
21:56:36 <ehird> o ise os x, except when ic ant type like now
21:56:40 <ehird> in which case i use odfgi x
21:56:43 <ehird> or somethign simlar
21:57:10 -!- Tritonio_ has joined.
21:57:11 <AnMaster> as iirc you told me some time ago
21:57:28 <ehird> but i lost the ftp link
21:57:31 <ehird> to the actual bins ofr os ox
21:57:37 <AnMaster> you could have googled for lyx
21:57:44 <ehird> but that doesnt get the m the tftp link
21:57:56 <AnMaster> and look, it got a link for download!?
21:58:18 <AnMaster> "Please use ftp mirrors below in case ftp.lyx.org is down."
21:58:32 <slereah__> What's the point of the projection function in the primitive recursive?
21:58:42 <slereah__> Is there a function that can't be written without it?
21:58:42 <ehird> AnMaster: sowhy not yell at me then :|
21:58:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I found a binary on a ftp mirror
21:59:01 <ehird> fine, great, so what
21:59:05 <AnMaster> because you can find it yourself
21:59:15 <AnMaster> it was like 3 clicks from download page
21:59:23 <ehird> AnMaster: #esoteric is 99% useless because most of the things discussed here can be found elsewhere.
21:59:33 <ehird> and as you can notice I am kind of having a mild inability to type right now
21:59:43 <ehird> which probably bodes un-good for me writing a spec, but :)
22:00:01 <ehird> AnMaster: I think my hands have shut down to power the rest of my body o.o
22:00:11 <AnMaster> ftp://ftp.lip6.fr/pub/lyx/bin/1.5.4
22:00:22 <AnMaster> in that dir is a file for os x
22:00:55 <ehird> ueah i just found it
22:01:13 <ehird> theys hould fix their damn ftp not to leave old releases in top level disr
22:01:19 <ehird> with no newer releases in sight
22:01:36 <AnMaster> I just followed link from download page
22:01:51 <AnMaster> ftp://ftp.lip6.fr/pub/lyx/ is top dir
22:02:08 <AnMaster> wtf do you mean old in top dir
22:02:08 <ehird> AnMaster: when i got the old version
22:02:31 <AnMaster> well that may have been quite long ago
22:02:32 -!- atsampson has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:02:47 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway html output isn't pretty
22:03:12 <ehird> AnMaster: i will choose a system with decent html output
22:03:14 <ehird> that is the end of it
22:03:30 <AnMaster> ehird, well, it will need some post-processing
22:03:38 <AnMaster> but I think it depends more on tex than lyx
22:04:19 <AnMaster> ehird, here is the latex preamble I'm using for funge08:
22:04:21 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/oGYwec89.html
22:05:34 <AnMaster> document class is koma-script article with options: bibtotoc,idxtotoc
22:05:56 <ehird> my document is kinda lacking in markup though
22:05:59 <ehird> so it isn't that nice
22:06:04 <ehird> AnMaster: its very simple
22:06:15 <AnMaster> ehird, ah well then that's your input
22:06:28 <ehird> AnMaster: can't think of anywhere to add more semantics though really
22:06:31 <ehird> i'll paste the lyx file :)
22:06:46 <AnMaster> ehird, however, lyx doesn't do my document nicely for html, because I made it for pdf
22:06:59 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/Gw7czI59.txt
22:07:00 <AnMaster> because I got some really wide and long tables
22:07:41 <AnMaster> whatever.lyx is from a different version of LyX, but the lyx2lyx script failed to convert it.
22:08:05 <AnMaster> UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf8' codec can't decode bytes in position 34-39: unsupported Unicode code range
22:08:14 <ehird> AnMaster: uh, no idea
22:08:19 <AnMaster> looks like something messed up with paste?
22:08:23 -!- slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:08:28 <AnMaster> unicode gets messed up by pastebin
22:08:36 <AnMaster> ehird, can you upload it to a server?
22:09:10 <ehird> pastbein but for files
22:09:26 <AnMaster> ehird, "Elliott Hird" <-- is that a male or female name (I'm not a native English!)
22:09:35 <ehird> AnMaster: haha, male
22:09:46 <ehird> http://filebin.ca/kjeqq/test.lyx
22:12:04 <AnMaster> ehird, why a subscript bignum?
22:12:10 <slereah__> Wasn't Elliott the guy with a magical dragon in some movie?
22:12:28 <slereah__> Or possibly Elliott was the dragon
22:13:23 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete's_Dragon
22:14:41 <AnMaster> ehird, lyx really needs at least 5-10 pages to be able to show it's awesomness
22:16:46 <calamari> latex looks weird in pdfs tho.. the letters are all different sizes
22:17:30 <AnMaster> that depends on what options you use
22:17:41 <calamari> very distracting.. have to print it out or zoom way in
22:17:47 <AnMaster> or do you mean the actual string "LaTeX"
22:18:10 <ehird> AnMaster: because Brainfuck_N
22:18:13 <ehird> so Brainfuck_bignum
22:18:30 <ehird> also, I think you mean 'Computer Modern' looks weird
22:18:46 <ehird> Which just means that you don't share Knuths sense of aesthetics
22:18:57 <AnMaster> ehird, I can't get filebin to work?
22:19:34 <calamari> it's the "research paper pdf" look.. instantly recognizable that they used latex
22:19:52 <ehird> calamari: no, it's the Default-Latex-font-look
22:20:09 <ehird> calamari: yes, Computer Modern has a distinct style. most of the fonts & font tech you're used to wasn't around when it was designed.
22:20:25 <ehird> however its actually a nice font, just takes getting used to ;)
22:20:36 <ehird> I would make my webpages Computer Modern if anyone had the font!
22:21:21 * AnMaster does the paste binary files on nopaste trick
22:21:27 <AnMaster> needs a special command line tool
22:21:44 <AnMaster> this is my befunge08 draft, use wget or curl to get it, firefox or such would fail at it
22:21:51 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/2sIDlA55.txt
22:21:54 <calamari> ehird: I'll take your word for it
22:22:04 <AnMaster> do you think it got those issues?
22:22:29 <calamari> I think that shouldn't be ".txt" :)
22:22:42 <ehird> AnMaster: dude give source
22:22:46 <ehird> NOBODY wants to download a pdf
22:23:12 <ehird> i for one won't :)
22:23:12 <AnMaster> it works very well in konqueror
22:23:22 <AnMaster> ehird, still please take a look at this one
22:23:49 <AnMaster> the image in appendix c, I'm rendering a better one atm
22:24:02 <AnMaster> just waiting a few hours for blender to finish it
22:24:16 <calamari> one way to tell you have too much crap on your desktop: cannot find a file you just downloaded
22:24:48 <AnMaster> calamari, so what do you think of it
22:25:00 <ehird> Hello, world! How arey ou today? I think a little bit of my typing ability has come back so I am typing quickly to test.
22:25:10 <ehird> AnMaster: lex! lex! lex! lex! lex!
22:25:15 <calamari> okay cool.. see that looks fine
22:25:44 <calamari> so it's the defgault font that looks like crap
22:25:53 <AnMaster> ehird, ah well pastebin mess it up
22:25:56 <ehird> calamari: it's the default font that you're not used to
22:26:04 <ehird> i can guarantee you that Computer Moden is beautiful ;)
22:26:29 <AnMaster> ehird, the lyx source would make no sense
22:26:37 <AnMaster> it includes stuff like external *.eps
22:27:00 * calamari goes baqck to working on his rubik's cube cipher
22:28:07 <AnMaster> ehird, but I'll send it in some way
22:29:33 <AnMaster> ehird, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge08.tar.bz2
22:29:55 <AnMaster> ehird, note, I haven't gotten permission to reuse this really yet, I'm waiting for answer on license on funge98
22:30:15 <AnMaster> ehird, so I'll remove the file in 5 minutes
22:30:32 <ehird> people on #esoteric are simultaneously paranoid and lax..
22:31:01 * pikhq pulls it for his archive of censored files
22:31:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, likely it will be allowed soon
22:31:23 <AnMaster> or I'll rewrite it from scratch
22:31:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is just a copyright issue of the text
22:31:38 <pikhq> Hmm. Not seeing the guy responsible in here ATM.
22:31:39 <AnMaster> anyway it is funge98 standard, extended
22:31:55 <AnMaster> ehird, have you fetched it or not?
22:32:46 <AnMaster> ehird, also mine is optimized for being made into a pdf
22:32:53 <AnMaster> like the \usepackage{microtype}
22:34:02 <AnMaster> ehird, also you may want to change from "indent new paragraphs" to "use vertical skip"
22:34:09 <AnMaster> it will help for web page at least
22:35:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm making some changes to your file
22:37:11 <AnMaster> ehird, you want to post-process that file however
22:37:28 <AnMaster> to change the _bignum thing from an image to using the html <sub> or whatever it is
22:38:49 <ehird> it doesnt use an image
22:38:51 <ehird> its 100% pure html
22:46:32 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway you got my lyx source
22:58:06 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
23:02:18 <olsner> I just found the bugs in my Protected-Mode bootstrap: 1) mistook dd for dw when building the far jump 2) forgot to add the 32-bit jump prefix to the same far jump 3) called real-mode interrupts after resetting idt (and gdt) 4) misunderstood nasm macros, generating completely bogus data in my gdt 5) misunderstood the format of the gdt limit parameter 6) didn't disable interrupts until after loading the idt with an empty
23:02:31 <olsner> I wonder what the heck I was doing back then
23:13:02 <pikhq> Screwing everything up.
23:15:32 <olsner> just about... but now I do have something that boots up, reads a bootstrap from disk, calls the bootstrap, successfully enters PM then prints a C in the upper-left corner of the screen (from PM), then halts
23:15:50 <olsner> the question now is what the heck the purpose of this thing was
23:16:32 <oerjan> probably some megalomaniac scheme of writing your own OS
23:17:47 <olsner> could be... the modification date on this thing, before I started nesting yesterday, was some time in July 2003
23:17:48 * pikhq has something that gets loaded from Grub, successfully set up user mode and kernel mode, then prints out the GDT
23:19:01 <olsner> wow, it even has a user and kernel mode?
23:19:16 <pikhq> It doesn't *use* said user and kernel mode yet, though.
23:19:21 <pikhq> No multitasking. ;)
23:19:31 <olsner> bah, how hard can it be
23:19:34 <pikhq> Still, it'd be fairly trivial to enter user mode.
23:19:39 <pikhq> Just a long jump into it.
23:19:52 <pikhq> I believe it's sector 0x18 that's user mode's CS?
23:20:22 <olsner> I only have a kernel-mode CS and DS thus far
23:20:30 <pikhq> gdt_set_gate(3, 0xFFFFFFFF, 0, GDT_USERCODE, GDT_FLAGS);
23:20:42 <pikhq> I'd say that's doing user-mode CS and 0x18.
23:20:47 <calamari> can't seem to find a sequence of moves that gives a period > 1260
23:20:57 <olsner> gdt_set_gate? I think I know which tutorial you've been using :P
23:21:23 <pikhq> I'm not using a tutorial.
23:21:33 <pikhq> I wrote that all by myself. . .
23:21:49 <pikhq> The tutorial that I found first, which had that function in it, was truly awful, though.
23:22:01 <pikhq> "Copy this code. Everything will work!"
23:23:23 <ehird> [22:20] <olsner> gdt_set_gate? I think I know which tutorial you've been using :P
23:23:27 <ehird> i said exactly the same thing
23:23:30 <ehird> but for his putchar routines
23:23:45 <olsner> bah, putchar? the console is a framebuffer!
23:23:46 <ehird> while that tutorial may suck, the ohers are all worse ;)
23:24:08 <ehird> fun idea: no text mode ever implemented
23:24:15 <pikhq> ehird: Like I said: I wrote my stuff all on my own. ;)
23:24:18 <ehird> the gui is heavily baked in and made to be as optimized as possible
23:24:25 <ehird> and is just as stable as the text mode
23:24:26 <pikhq> Well, except for the multiboot stub, makefile, and linker script.
23:24:33 <ehird> no more shitty gui layers!
23:24:47 <ehird> of course you could write a terminal driver that just outputs to a terminal gui window.
23:24:54 <pikhq> ehird: So. . . you have GUI pretty damned quickly?
23:25:17 <ehird> pikhq: Well, the GUI should reeeaaaally be saved to later. BUT, this way is fun :D
23:25:25 <oerjan> calamari: in rubik's cube? that's the period of turning one face, then the whole cube, isn't it.
23:25:28 <pikhq> Make it X-compatible, and I'll be impressed.
23:25:33 <ehird> you'd actually, you know, have to think about your gui and its implications and its stability
23:26:03 <pikhq> Anyways: I had a really insane idea for my syscall interface.
23:26:15 <calamari> oerjan: trying to find a fixed sequence of moves with the longest period.. i.e. after doing these same exact moves X times, for which moves is X largest?
23:26:25 <pikhq> Write the syscall and its arguments to 0x00, then int 66h. ;p
23:26:37 <ehird> pikhq: So .. basically linuxs syscal.
23:26:40 <ehird> But with diff. mem addrs
23:26:41 <calamari> so far the best is an 8 move sequence period 1260
23:26:52 <pikhq> Linux's syscall has the syscall arguments in registers.
23:26:55 <olsner> you mean overload the segmentation fault handler for syscalling?
23:27:06 <calamari> I think I'll try adding some feedback to see if I can create a longer period
23:27:13 <pikhq> olsner: No; use paging to actually map 0x00 somewhere.
23:27:25 <olsner> ah, yes, that makes more sense
23:27:55 <olsner> but I somewhat like the idea of null pointers giving segmentation faults when accessed
23:28:33 <pikhq> I like the idea of making Malbolge the user programming language.
23:29:24 <ehird> pikhq: Hey! ESO already exists
23:29:36 * pikhq should *probably* make a Brainfuck interpreter the first running program on this kernel.
23:30:15 <oerjan> calamari: the biggest period may not be that big
23:30:21 <ehird> pikhq: with loads of memory map stuffed
23:30:24 <ehird> and make it binary brainfuck
23:30:28 <ehird> so you can program your os in it!
23:30:33 <ehird> then transform the interp + co into asm
23:30:37 <ehird> and you will truly have a brainfuck OS
23:31:03 <ehird> you can also micro-optimize the (probably tiny) brainfuck interp for every byte it's got. that would be fun :-)
23:32:43 <ehird> i really want to get my os project going sometime
23:32:51 <ehird> watching gcc compile something on it would be awesome
23:33:36 <ehird> pikhq: i assume your kernel will be monolithic
23:33:37 <olsner> os = fix (recompile . boot)
23:33:52 <ehird> olsner: QEmu represent.
23:34:03 <ehird> i think i'll probably make a monolith first, then try my random wacky microkernel idea after that :p
23:34:24 <ehird> (the basic idea is that most 'microkernel's really suck because their concept of a process is too heavyweight, and their IPC stuff is terrible)
23:34:42 <ehird> the problem is, the more you do cool ideas, the less likely you are to run gcc..
23:35:59 <ehird> oh, and if i get either one of those up, after a year or so i'll think about toying around with some gui concepts i had
23:36:15 <ehird> like a shell that integrates with a gui properly but isn't one of those god-damn awful 'GUI SHELLZ' you see around
23:39:10 <ehird> but really i just want to mess around in kernelspace
23:55:27 <ehird> pikhq: i wonder how much a microkernel could actually refer
23:55:34 * pikhq has an idea for a filesystem. . .
23:55:44 <ehird> if we have the kernel as process 0, and call it the 'procd'
23:55:51 <pikhq> Anyone familiar with the UMSDOS filesystem of Linux 2.0-2.4?
23:55:55 <ehird> and all it does is the minimum neccessary for processes + ipc
23:55:59 <ehird> then you could even put:
23:56:07 <ehird> console drivers, etc. in their own module
23:56:27 <ehird> of course your process structure would get optimized pronto; you'd have a hell of a lot of procs ;)
23:56:59 <pikhq> I assume you'd have that sucker use Multiboot.
23:57:11 <pikhq> (otherwise, good luck getting all your processes up and running. ;))
23:58:47 <ehird> It would do it all itself ;)
23:58:54 <ehird> handle its own procs etc
23:59:07 <ehird> The idea is that there is no 'root process'
23:59:17 <ehird> procd (cheap name for 'the core kernel') is proc 0
23:59:24 <ehird> but when it spawns off stuff, they aren't a child of procd
23:59:35 <ehird> because procd's "children" are not children at all, they have no parents (awwww)
23:59:59 <ehird> basically, procd would be the very minimum you need at the base: super-strong, fast glue.