00:00:59 <oklopol> that seems to be complex enough not to be predictable, but doesn't seem to leave much room for anything sensical
00:01:17 <oklopol> i shall run it a few thousand steps
00:05:07 <oklopol> perhaps that should've been clear
00:05:18 <Slereah> What were you hoping, o(0)?
00:05:40 <oklopol> in most esolangs, modularity is fairly simple to do
00:06:30 <oklopol> *or* they are easy to compile to something that was hell to prove universal, but some mathematician luckily did it millions of years ago
00:07:34 <oklopol> so much fun writing a program in the shell just to lose it right away, because i don't realize the interpreter and my os sucks
00:07:56 <oklopol> well, i guess i can rewrite it, took like 40 seconds :D
00:10:54 <oklopol> 11131221133112132113212221
00:11:23 <Slereah> It's the look-and-say sequence
00:11:43 <oklopol> yes, but we are talking turtles
00:12:04 <oklopol> i was assuming everyone was familiar with that, not having a quiz
00:12:06 <Slereah> Are we known for our ninjustsu?
00:12:49 <oklopol> that's so trivial algorithmically it shouldn't take time at all
00:13:23 <oklopol> probably better not to time me this time :)
00:14:31 <oklopol> group + map (\a -> count a, pick first a)
00:14:57 <oklopol> map (\a -> (length a, head a)) $ group s
00:15:13 <oklopol> and there probably isn't anything exactly like that
00:15:19 <oklopol> oerjan to the rescue, perhaps
00:17:22 <oerjan> certainly. in fact the wikipedia page is on my watchlist
00:17:42 <oklopol> {{#_,.a}\grp} in oklotalk, i think
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00:18:13 <oerjan> after a number of iterations it split into Conway's elements. From there on it is a simple substitution
00:18:33 <oerjan> oh you meant the haskell?
00:18:48 <oklopol> but marshmallows kinda beat you to it with a cooler solution
00:19:10 <oklopol> or not, was just just for my lambda?
00:19:40 <oklopol> because i don't think that's correct
00:20:06 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look-and-say_sequence, look for Cosmological Theorem
00:20:43 <oklopol> &&& is definable in oklotalk too, &&&={a b->{a_,b_}}
00:21:10 <oklopol> takes two arguments, returns a function that returns a tuple with functions a and b used on the argument
00:21:27 <oklopol> &&&={A B->{a_,b_}} actually
00:21:55 <oerjan> also the constant, which explains your exponential growth (in fact the polynomial comes out of the eventual substitution i believe)
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00:22:13 <oklopol> i don't think you can make it any simpler
00:22:24 <oklopol> was doing my oklotalks very intensely
00:22:26 <oerjan> that part actually is slightly related to my PhD
00:23:23 <olsner> thue is turing complete, so there is no way for it not to be able to generate the sequence :P
00:23:42 <oklopol> oerjan: i'll read your papers when i've gathered some additional ownage.
00:23:52 <oklopol> i mean, those crazy mathematical papers of yours
00:24:32 <Slereah> Is oklopol TC enough to do it?
00:24:37 <olsner> wow, "Conway's constant is the unique positive real root of the following polynomial:"
00:25:00 <olsner> ... but my VAX only supports polynomials up to degree 31
00:25:09 <oklopol> x71 - x69 - 2x68 - x67 + 2x66 + 2x65 + x64 - x63 - x62 - x61 - x60 - x59 +
00:25:09 <oklopol> 2x58 + 5x57 + 3x56 - 2x55 - 10x54 - 3x53 - 2x52 + 6x51 + 6x50 + x49 + 9x48 - 3x47 -
00:25:09 <oklopol> 7x46 - 8x45 - 8x44 + 10x43 + 6x42 + 8x41 - 5x40 - 12x39 + 7x38 - 7x37 + 7x36 + x35 -
00:25:09 <oklopol> 3x34 + 10x33 + x32 - 6x31 - 2x30 - 10x29 - 3x28 + 2x27 + 9x26 - 3x25 + 14x24 - 8x23 -
00:25:09 <oklopol> 7x21 + 9x20 + 3x19 - 4x18 - 10x17 - 7x16 + 12x15 + 7x14 + 2x13 - 12x12 - 4x11 -
00:25:09 <oklopol> 2x10 + 5x9 + x7 - 7x6 + 7x5 - 4x4 + 12x3 - 6x2 + 3x - 6
00:25:16 <Slereah> THE LOOK AND SAY SEQUENCE HAS BEEN DESTROYED BY NINJAS
00:25:18 <Slereah> ARE YOU TC ENOUGH A DUDE TO GENERATE THAT SEQUENCE?
00:25:43 <olsner> oklopol: or as 4chan would have it: <polynomial> ... I came
00:25:49 <oklopol> flood, lolling and capital letters, esoteric at its best :P
00:27:07 <oklopol> oerjan: in fact, i'll promise to read them 2012, if we both are still around.
00:27:58 <Slereah> 2012 is the end of the world, don't you know?
00:28:19 <oerjan> oklopol: if you take the 92 elements of conway and set up a matrix of how they turn into each other in one step, then the constant is the largest eigenvalue of that matrix
00:29:04 <oerjan> (the only positive one, actually)
00:29:27 <oklopol> i think i've looked that up before...
00:29:40 <oerjan> an eigenvalue of a matrix is a value l such that there exists a vector v such that M v = l v
00:29:46 <Slereah> Eigenvalue is k if Ax = kx
00:30:17 <oerjan> to find them, you solve the equation det(lI - M) = 0, which probably is that polynomial
00:30:24 <Slereah> It be them numbers on the diagonal in a diagonalised form
00:30:39 <oklopol> well at least i get how the equation is formed then
00:31:22 <oerjan> actually there probably is some simplification going on, since it doesn't have degree 92...
00:32:15 <oerjan> so the polynomial on the page may be a factor of the full one
00:32:46 <oerjan> or perhaps some terms really are zero from the start
00:33:11 <Slereah> Remember the trick : if you can't solve a 92x92 matrix, just write "The margin is too thin for me to write the proof".
00:33:16 <oklopol> i really have no matrix intuition
00:33:40 <oerjan> Slereah: if you have time to wait a few hundred years...
00:33:42 <oklopol> yeah, then just leave the paper around for a few hundred years and you'll have the answer
00:34:39 <Slereah> What I find amusing is that Conservapedia doesn't like Andrew Wiles proof.
00:34:52 <Slereah> They say it uses the CONTROVERSIAL AXIOM OF CHOICE
00:35:02 <Slereah> They probably think it's pro choice.
00:35:15 <oklopol> axiom of choise is so fake
00:35:59 <oerjan> it's consistent with the others, as Godel proved
00:36:07 <marshmallows> I'm going to suggest the library I go to burn all books that mention the axiom of choice
00:36:14 <Slereah> Then again, so's its negation!
00:36:32 <oerjan> Slereah: so you have a choice!
00:37:11 <Slereah> Axiom of choice -> axiom of choice
00:37:14 <oerjan> you can prove that you cannot prove it or disprove it, unless ZF without it is inconsistent
00:37:18 <Slereah> Axiom of choice -> axiom of choice
00:37:26 <Slereah> Then axiom of choice is true
00:37:45 * oerjan puts a big F on Slereah's logic exam
00:38:29 * oerjan hides the F under his bed
00:39:18 <oklopol> oerjan: or just give it to me
00:39:29 <oerjan> but you already got an 'l'
00:39:58 * oerjan notes oklopol didn't note his repwning
00:40:00 <oklopol> i have a k and nothing to combine it with, so i might just as well use it
00:40:11 <oklopol> oerjan: i have a different joke, actually
00:40:50 <oerjan> and then buy a 'u' and a 'c' on ebay?
00:41:18 <oerjan> oklopol: you mentioned the 'l' before i did
00:41:23 <Slereah> Fkuc? What kind of silly word is that.
00:41:45 <oerjan> Slereah: it's popular in dyslexic circles, i hear
00:42:01 <oklopol> oerjan: in that case, i was the one doing the pwning, while you did it last time
00:42:11 <oklopol> anyway, i actually would like the f.
00:42:30 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklofok.
00:42:47 <oklofok> funny, i actually need to pee now.
00:45:49 <marshmallows> maybe I should do something based around linear logic
00:45:57 <olsner> I was thinking about building a programming language somewhat like haskell, but with only monads (and as little as possible of all that function stuff)
00:46:39 <olsner> the problem lies in eliminating all the usable stuff
00:51:02 <olsner> then I had an idea of a super-polymorphic haskell dialect, with everything including functions as type classes (presumably with a primitive function type and application operator available somewhere)
00:54:35 <Slereah> WHAT WOULD HASKELL LOOK LIKE IF GERMANY WON WWII :O
00:54:48 <Slereah> It's just an excuse to use the old German notations.
00:54:58 <oerjan> we present: the ERWIN language
00:55:11 <oerjan> (shades of Irregular Webcomic, and Schrodinger)
00:56:44 <oerjan> that would have to be Werner, for Heisenberg
00:57:15 <Slereah> It would be a good excuse to make people share my pain
00:57:16 <Slereah> The old logical notations were crazily insane
00:57:20 <oerjan> (who at least possibly was a nazi)
00:57:29 <oklofok> erwin is like winner but nubbed and scrambled.
00:58:03 <olsner> did you just say "good point" to yourself?
00:58:06 <Slereah> But then again, Heisenberg was no computer scientist
00:58:38 <Slereah> Wasn't Curry originally in Germany?
01:00:37 <oerjan> olsner: what do you expect from someone who keeps changing nicks?
01:03:12 <oerjan> IT'S A SIGN VON SCHIZOPHRENIA UND DIE ANAL RETENTION
01:04:10 <olsner> I CAN HAS CAPSLOCK TOO?
01:04:36 <oklofok> olsner: i tend to comment my own speech quite often.
01:05:23 <oklofok> i rarely have irl conversations
01:06:21 <oklofok> yes, that was the real point of what i was saying
01:06:24 <olsner> whut, that's perfectly grammatical
01:06:40 <oklofok> being able to talk about excrete non-explicitly
01:06:52 * marshmallows has seen "that that" and "house house" in grammatically valid sentences
01:06:57 <Slereah> oklofok's entire presence presence here has been just one long set up.
01:07:11 <Slereah> That Oklotalk? All smokes and mirrors
01:08:13 <oklofok> doesn't the concept of excrete also include poo?
01:08:19 <olsner> excrete != excrement, I hope
01:08:34 <oklofok> excrete can be bodily wastes or something, i think, too
01:08:54 <olsner> or, "I hope you weren't talking about excrement"
01:09:18 <oklofok> i was talking about excrement, isn't that what do do s
01:10:07 <oklofok> der lehrer hat gesagt das, dass das "dass, das", das das kind gesagt hast, recht ist
01:10:32 <oklofok> and there was something in french with even more homonymes, although i don't remember the word
01:10:40 <oklofok> i think it had "s" and meant at least "6"
01:10:51 <olsner> you probably have to put it "doo doo" for the reference to excrement to come across
01:11:05 <oklofok> olsner: Slereah got it without it
01:11:16 <olsner> uraniwa niwa niwa niwa niwa niwa niwatori ga iru
01:11:24 <Slereah> Well, I am totally awesome
01:11:35 <oklofok> and you can just assume i only talk about sex/shit when i'm not talking about programming.
01:11:40 * oerjan is reminded about the news tidbit about some japanese company who called their candy "dew dew"
01:12:19 <olsner> puppies, sex and shit... well, what else is there to life except programming?
01:12:30 <Slereah> The three at the same time?
01:12:45 <Slereah> Just ask the internet, I'm sure you'll find it!
01:12:53 <oerjan> otoh the Bonbon company around here seems to use that kind of naming for all their candy
01:12:53 <oklofok> well, i also like kids, but i think the context may not be good for saying that.
01:13:42 <olsner> sex and shit, definitely already done... puppies and sex, sure... puppies and shit, obviously... I guess you do have to go all three to find a new genre
01:14:09 <oklofok> hmm, i actually haven't seen anything with all three
01:14:38 * oerjan is slightly disturbed by the implication that oklofok has seen all the other combinations
01:14:43 <olsner> it'd be beastiality scat porn... shouldn't take 4chan more than a minute or two to find
01:14:54 <olsner> oerjan: what, you haven't?
01:15:01 <oklofok> the last one is not really that weird, i've seen dogs poo
01:15:14 <Slereah> http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/2196/blanksp2.jpg
01:15:48 <oerjan> and i've probably seen dogs fucking too, come to think of it
01:15:48 <oklofok> but it is a well-known fact you don't wanna peek in my collection.
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01:16:08 <oerjan> not that i actually remember
01:16:15 <Slereah> I've never seen so much rubber!
01:16:30 <oklofok> "i wish... it's Whitespace!"
01:16:39 <oerjan> if i _had_ a collection you wouldn't want to peek in it, but i don't
01:16:39 <olsner> oklofok: that's a compliment to your collection that
01:16:40 <oklofok> marshmallows: almost, or actually?
01:17:26 <oklofok> marshmallows: did it get inside you?
01:17:37 <oklofok> the dog would get like 10 years
01:17:46 <Slereah> Hve you sought psychological help?
01:17:52 <Slereah> We're here for you marshmallows
01:18:00 <oerjan> oklofok: only dog years though
01:18:03 <oklofok> i've never believed in traumas
01:18:30 <oklofok> in fact, i was gonna make a dog year joke, but i knew you'd do it
01:19:08 <oklofok> i guess dog+year is quite an obvious set-up for a dog year joke
01:19:09 <oerjan> maybe we should start a comedy troupe
01:19:30 <oklofok> yes! it's just #esoteric logs flashing through the screen
01:19:40 <Slereah> We'd probably cram in more obscure reference than a group of Dennis Miller!
01:20:41 <oklofok> if there was a show for programmers, i'd watch it
01:20:56 <olsner> though you/we haven't been particularly obscure lately, mostly talk about poop and dogs
01:21:15 <Slereah> Well, only in the last five minutes.
01:21:23 <oerjan> "Watch this guy juggle _four_ monadic frameworks at once"
01:21:25 <Slereah> Plus, oklofok's whitespace joke made me lol.
01:21:34 <oklofok> yes, we actually had nazi jokes too, a while back
01:21:46 <oklofok> hehe, yeah, i was kinda fun :)
01:22:26 <olsner> * oklofok regresses to an 'it'
01:23:23 <oklofok> i used to date this chick who called herself that, it became something of a pet name
01:23:54 * oerjan regresses to an 'xfwlkscprtsk'
01:23:54 <olsner> was that a reflexive that or a literal that - 'that' or 'itself'?
01:24:12 * oerjan somehow doubts it will become a pet name though
01:24:46 <olsner> implicit quoting, heh, perl does that
01:24:49 <oklofok> actually she used both "i" and "it"
01:24:57 <oklofok> i never quite got to know how serious that was
01:25:16 <oerjan> maybe she had a Caesar complex
01:26:13 <olsner> oh, sorry, programming-language-that-must-not-be-named does that
01:26:23 <oerjan> watch out for when she becomes president
01:26:44 <oerjan> or would prime minister be scarier? not sure of the finnish system
01:27:04 <olsner> finland has a president
01:27:12 <oklofok> (president does really nothing here)
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01:27:30 <oerjan> so prime minister would be scarier
01:27:44 <oerjan> or perhaps defense minister
01:27:55 <oklofok> but i'm not proud i know what "president" means, politics are my no-touch zone
01:28:04 <olsner> they have a female one, last time I checked (which was 10 years ago or something)
01:28:24 <olsner> oklofok: wow, I like your view on politics!
01:28:26 <oklofok> we haven't had a female president for that long, but we do currently.
01:29:36 <oklofok> i'm fairly separated from the society, except for a few friends
01:30:03 <oerjan> the United Kingdom of Europe, of course
01:30:25 <olsner> marshmallows: you never know which oklofok you're talking to though, it could change
01:31:08 <oklofok> yes, currently, i'm a collective entity, the whole population of finland.
01:31:35 <SimonRC> ok, that line needs context
01:31:46 <SimonRC> yay, go Dilbert! http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20080316.html
01:32:06 <oklofok> is it about esolangs?!?!?!?
01:33:08 <SimonRC> I would read the recent conversation, but I CBA telling the three o-names apart
01:33:19 <olsner> I dislike how dilbert became the besserwisser - it makes it hard to decide which one's the protagonist in the story
01:33:22 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers2/dilbert-20-11-1998.gif
01:33:26 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers2/dilbert-26-01-1999.gif
01:33:36 <olsner> and the PHB actually comes of as having a clue
01:34:21 <oklofok> we are clearly not wanted here, o-guys, #o-club (LNFAJ)
01:34:46 <oklofok> link not for actually joining, my new
01:35:13 * olsner was a split-second away from actually joining
01:35:18 * oerjan notes that currently #haskell seems as weird as #esoteric. although lament _is_ partly to blame
01:36:09 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers/penrose2.png
01:36:12 <olsner> zombies, hitler and tesla coils, all in a few lines of irc3!
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01:37:19 <oklofok> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers/penrose2.png <<< this is a joke too?
01:37:30 <oklofok> just checking, because i'm going to stare at it till i get it
01:38:07 <oklofok> that is not the correct answer
01:38:34 <Slereah> Although I already don't understand most of regular tensor notations, so it's hard to read!
01:39:17 <Slereah> But written in a usual way, i mean
01:39:35 <Slereah> Unlike the bugs that Penrose uses
01:39:44 <SimonRC> except they are higher-dimensional matrices
01:40:59 <Slereah> Just a bunch of n dimensionl matrix, that's pretty much it.
01:41:08 <Slereah> The rest is just the operations applied to them
01:41:29 * SimonRC appreaciates a really spectacular notation.
01:42:10 <Slereah> In Penrose case's, the dimension is indicated by the number of legs. Or whatever you want to call them
01:42:53 <oklofok> i totally get what you mean
01:49:03 <SimonRC> It has to make the muggles go "Omg you can read that?!"
01:50:53 <Slereah> It wouldn't be fun otherwise!
01:54:29 <Slereah> Unlike the nancies in social science, people can't even begin to guess at all those symbols!
01:57:13 <lament> haskell's type system IS turing-complete after all. I didn't realize.
01:57:45 <lament> they're discussing this in #haskell. GHC extensions are turing-complete.
01:58:04 <lament> so we already allow turing-completeness
01:58:16 <lament> but surely there's a much nicer way to allow turing-completeness than with GHC type system!
01:58:40 <oerjan> well the hoi polloi could always just use values
01:58:53 <olsner> I think the designers of haskell were cowards for not making it turing-complete and beautiful rather than its H98 limited mess
01:59:14 <olsner> but perhaps the lambda cube wasn't generally known at the time?
01:59:54 <marshmallows> You have a valid program you want to compile, yet it can never be compiled
02:00:06 <marshmallows> so the compiler does not fit its specification
02:00:49 <olsner> well, if you write a program with divergent types you're on your own
02:02:53 <olsner> besides, there are ways of modifying a TC type system to terminate in finite space and time without changing the type system itself (e.g. allowing a limited stack and heap for the type checker)
02:04:30 <olsner> incidentally, I think that's what cayenne is supposed to do, if augustss hasn't discontinued that project
02:04:38 <marshmallows> yeah, any standards conforming C++ implementation is buggy
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02:06:06 <olsner> yes, but probably not because of templates being turing complete
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03:28:23 * SimonRC reads some lolpresidents.com and goes.
03:49:00 <marshmallows> http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=550129
04:26:41 <RodgerTheGreat> hey guys, this story will haunt your dreams: http://www.seizureandy.com/stuff/guts.html
04:28:29 * oerjan reads just enough to decide to stop
04:39:48 <RodgerTheGreat> it's disgusting, yes, but at the same time I can't help but admire the writing and storytelling technique
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05:05:12 <olsner> too long didn't read; he gets stuck on the inlet of the pool cleaning pump and passes out?
05:07:33 <olsner> wow, I only had to read a few paragraphs more to get to the really exciting part
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05:09:54 <RodgerTheGreat> definitely makes me want to read "Fight Club". I like the style- very vivid imagery.
05:10:53 <olsner> "Then my sister missed her period." ... hey, that part can't be true
05:14:35 <olsner> well, /me goes to sleep
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09:59:04 <oklofok> okay i gotta admit that was quite a story :D
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11:53:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Funge98 author just gave me permission to work on a draft for a new standard :)
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14:23:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, a very early draft http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge-108/funge108.pdf very much work in progress (108 was the name Chris Pressey wanted, "years since 1900")
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18:56:34 <ehird> marshmallows: this macro is interesting
18:56:35 <ehird> #;1> (define-macro (foo . args) `'(foo ,@args))
18:56:45 <ehird> i can see a quine using it
18:58:19 <ehird> #0=(begin (write (quote #0#)) (newline))
19:00:10 <marshmallows> #0=(begin #@(((source-file . "console") (line-number . 1) (column-number . 11) . #1=((source-kind . user))) . (write #@(((source-file . "console") (line-number . 1) (column-number . 18) . #1#) . (quote #@(((source-file . "console") (line-number . 1) (column-number . 4) . #1#) . #0#))))) #@(((source-file . "console") (line-number . 1) (column-number . 31) . #1#) . (newline)))
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19:04:56 <ehird> but that is bizzare
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19:12:59 <marshmallows> ehird, do you think it's bad .. the way IRC has divided itself into programming language specific channels instead of say, paradaigm specific ones?
19:14:04 <marshmallows> but #declarative #procedural #functional .... all empty
19:15:17 <slereah_> Because it's usually easier to get help on a particular language than on a broad description of it, I suppose.
19:16:55 <slereah_> And esoteric can survive because really, there's not enough people to fill up chans of even the most popular esolangs
19:23:47 <ehird> marshmallows: #concatenative is n ot empty!
19:24:00 <ehird> slereah_: indeed, marshmallows's channels are too catch-all
19:24:05 <ehird> the concepts vary wildly between them
19:24:16 <ehird> #concatenative is basically a fancy way of saying #factor
19:24:53 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric - Extending Tetrationfuck to the reals with magnets. | Logs: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ | The Esoteric File Archive: http://esolangs.org/files/.
19:29:01 <lament> oz seems interesting but dead
19:29:56 <ehird> slereah_: jesus wasn't that interesting
19:30:16 <ehird> he was born to god, said some shit, died, undied, said some more shit, died, said he'd be back
19:30:18 <ehird> we're still waiting
19:30:34 <lament> marshmallows: i looked at mozart, found this: http://www.mozart-oz.org/mogul/
19:30:46 <lament> it's mozart's equivalent of CPAN
19:31:14 <ehird> i wonder if anyone has developed a decentralized CPAN alike
19:31:16 <lament> then i stopped looking :)
19:31:31 <lament> also the joyful announcement on their front page, "Current Mozart is 1.3.2 released on June 15, 2006
19:31:44 <ehird> lament: 2006 isn't that bad
19:31:50 <ehird> brainfuck's last release was in '93 :)
19:32:11 <lament> no, brainfuck's _standard_ was 93 :)
19:32:32 <lament> and C was 89 (discounting what followed), yet it's hardly dead
19:32:41 <slereah_> Brainfuck's ESO standard was 2008
19:32:51 <marshmallows> If I drink enough coffee will I have a good idea
19:33:23 <ehird> lament: urban m?ller never released a brainfuck distro post 93
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19:34:07 <slereah_> Program the Andrei Machine 9000
19:34:17 <lament> better yet. write your programming language that's way better than Haskell.
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22:37:51 <ehird> channel: dead all day!
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