←2008-03-31 2008-04-01 2008-04-02→ ↑2008 ↑all
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01:48:06 <wildhalcyon> ehird, smalltalk is pretty cool.
01:54:34 <lament> heh :)
01:58:22 <wildhalcyon> I'm starting to understand the syntax better, but I still think there are some superfluous semicolons.
01:58:50 <wildhalcyon> I haven't figured out how to change syntax in squeak
02:00:12 <lament> which semicolons are superfluous?
02:02:00 <wildhalcyon> For instance: Transcript show: 'hello world'; cr. (quoted from the Squeak By Example documentation, pg 12)
02:02:19 <lament> what does cr mean?
02:02:35 <lament> carriage return?
02:02:39 <wildhalcyon> I believe so, yes
02:03:22 <lament> well.. compare that to what you would have in some other language
02:03:29 <lament> Transcript.show("hello world")
02:03:33 <lament> Transcript.cr()
02:04:04 <wildhalcyon> I'm not saying its not better, or wicked cool. Because it is, on both counts.
02:04:23 <lament> the thing the semicolon does is called "cascade"
02:04:27 <wildhalcyon> Maybe I should spend some more time on it
02:04:32 <wildhalcyon> cascade?
02:04:49 <lament> both the message show: and the message cr are sent to Transcript
02:05:05 <wildhalcyon> ohh, okay
02:05:06 <lament> ; is shortcut for "send to the same receiver the previous message was sent to"
02:06:05 <wildhalcyon> Alright
02:06:24 <wildhalcyon> I guess that makes sense
02:08:32 <wildhalcyon> I was hoping something cool would happen if I typed in 3 + 4; + 2
02:08:36 <wildhalcyon> but.. nothing exciting happened
02:09:54 <lament> right, you want side-effecty messages for that to make any sense
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02:10:46 <wildhalcyon> I guess so, either that or I shouldn't have used a constant
02:11:10 <lament> self-modification is a side effect
02:12:10 <wildhalcyon> Oh, well that makes sense from a purely functional perspective
02:13:54 <lament> ; makes you lose the return value of the first message
02:14:11 <lament> so if there were no side effects, nothing happens
02:16:05 <wildhalcyon> Alright
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02:31:41 <wildhalcyon> Thanks lament. Im off to bed now
02:31:43 <wildhalcyon> g'night
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05:42:12 <RodgerTheGreat> http://veroz.vox.com/library/photo/6a00b8ea0717ec1bc000c2251f6997f219.html
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06:11:00 <adu> hi
06:18:43 <RodgerTheGreat> 'night folks
06:18:47 <RodgerTheGreat> cya adu
06:18:58 <adu> cya
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08:33:00 <AnMaster> does halting problem ask: "will halt in finite time" vs. "will run forever", where that may include infinite loop or such?
08:33:37 <AnMaster> if that is the case, you can partially solve the halting problem for befunge, any befuge program not containing, @, q, p or s will never halt I think
08:33:47 <AnMaster> any program with one of those may halt
08:33:49 <AnMaster> or may not
08:55:00 <marshmallows> you can also partially solve the problem by running the program and waiting to see if it halts or not
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08:59:33 <immibis> What happened to XKCD?
09:03:21 <marshmallows> attacked by a bear
09:04:52 <immibis> seriously?
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10:15:12 <AnMaster> marshmallows, a 1 april joke I guess
10:17:01 <AnMaster> just front page joke
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10:55:58 <AnMaster_> marshmallows, there?
10:56:01 <AnMaster_> I finally got it
10:56:07 <AnMaster_> the xkcd thing
10:56:12 <AnMaster_> three web comics have rotated
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10:57:13 <Iskr> eheh yes
10:57:31 <Iskr> today it's on qwantz.com
10:57:37 <Iskr> =)
10:58:12 <AnMaster> basically three different webcomics are mixed up, so xkcd's front page display another comic, that other comic's front page display a third and the third one display xkcd
10:58:16 <AnMaster> Iskr, exactly
11:00:07 <AnMaster> Iskr, as I only read xkcd and userfriendly it took a while to find out
11:01:01 <SimonRC> have you seen the thing about the penguins yet?
11:01:13 <SimonRC> DOES NOT APPROVE
11:01:15 <AnMaster> SimonRC, eh what?
11:01:20 <SimonRC> um, oops, wrong button
11:01:30 <AnMaster> what are you talking about
11:01:35 <SimonRC> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/01/npenguin101.xml
11:01:44 <SimonRC> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23qDl1aH9l4
11:01:53 <SimonRC> 2 correct urls ^^
11:02:01 * SimonRC curses the X clipboards
11:03:10 <AnMaster> SimonRC, oh seen the google one?
11:03:14 <AnMaster> and the youtube one?
11:03:57 <AnMaster> for youtube. click on any "featured video" on front page
11:04:02 <SimonRC> the star wars rube golberg machine?
11:04:04 <AnMaster> http://www.google.com/virgle/index.html for google one
11:04:08 <AnMaster> SimonRC, just click on any
11:04:12 <AnMaster> see what happens
11:04:14 <SimonRC> ah
11:04:34 <AnMaster> I think it is some silly meme iirc?
11:04:42 <SimonRC> yes
11:18:14 <SimonRC> heh, the beeb have an iPlayer video about Rickrolling
12:12:34 <AnMaster> I decided to try some fuzz testing
12:12:40 <AnMaster> cat /dev/urandom | tr -Cd -- '-[:lower:][:digit:]\n\\ ;",.+*[](){}^<>@'\' | head -n 100 > fuzz.tmp
12:12:46 <AnMaster> for befunge, just playing around
12:12:58 <AnMaster> amzingly it turned out the program halted and produced output
12:13:06 <AnMaster> "0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 i0 0 0 44 0 0 i32 0 0 0 44 0 0 0 i32 49 0 0 0 0 44 99 0 0 0 0 0 i32 49 \0 0 0 0 44 99 0 0 0 0 0 i32 49 \>0 0 0 0 0 0 44 99 108 0 0 0 0 0 0 i32 49 \>123 0 0 0 0 0 0 "
12:14:55 <AnMaster> I ran it in sandbox mode of course
12:15:47 <AnMaster> 121 threads
12:19:12 <AnMaster> hm and here is one producing a pattern like:
12:19:13 <AnMaster> 11 11
12:19:14 <AnMaster> 11 11
12:19:17 <AnMaster> and so on
12:26:59 <AnMaster> hah was useful found one that caused segfault, now to find out why
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13:46:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, consider a program that is is just: 7kt
13:46:12 <AnMaster> now that cause issues
13:46:20 <AnMaster> valgrind screaming
13:46:30 * AnMaster wonders if ccbi handles that
13:46:56 <AnMaster> $ ~/ccbi/ccbi_linux/ccbi tests/wtf.b98
13:46:57 <AnMaster> Exited due to an error: at :0
13:47:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, seems like it didn't
13:47:01 <AnMaster> hehehe
13:52:18 <Deewiant> probably runs out of memory, what's there to 'handle'? :-P
13:52:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm would reflecting on that be allowed?
13:52:41 <Deewiant> no?
13:52:45 <AnMaster> hm
13:52:48 <Deewiant> if you put something smart after that it's fine
13:52:55 <AnMaster> eh?
13:53:02 <Deewiant> 7kt@
13:53:20 <Deewiant> perfectly valid
13:53:26 <AnMaster> hm
13:54:08 <Deewiant> makes 8 IPs, 7 of them go through the '7' before wrapping to the @, the original goes straight to the @, one goes through k7@
13:55:54 <AnMaster> hrrm
13:56:00 * AnMaster add kludges to k
13:58:28 <Deewiant> if you put something smart on the stack beforehand and put some #s and branches there so that the IPs separate that's an OK way of making a bunch of threads
14:05:02 <AnMaster> hrrm
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14:20:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in the case of k, what ip should execute next?
14:21:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because should it work as original ip spawned each time or as each new ip gets spawned?
14:25:19 <Deewiant> "this duplicate is added to the IP list such that it is executed for the first time before the parent IP is next executed. "
14:25:29 <AnMaster> yes indeed
14:25:36 <Deewiant> among all those that are added by k, I suppose the order is undefined
14:25:41 <AnMaster> indeed
14:25:43 <Deewiant> as long as they're all before the one that came to the k
14:25:44 <AnMaster> and would it matter?
14:25:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes that they should be
14:25:58 <Deewiant> don't think it can matter
14:26:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm doing fuzz testing atm btw:
14:26:32 <AnMaster> cat /dev/urandom | tr -Cd -- '-[:lower:][:digit:]\n\\ ;",.+*[]{}^<>@`_|?:%$#!'\' | tr -d 'mhlior' | head -n 100 > fuzz.tmp
14:26:32 <AnMaster> valgrind --leak-check=full ./cfunge -St 9 fuzz.tmp
14:26:34 <AnMaster> over and over
14:26:43 <Deewiant> yep, I saw that above :-)
14:26:44 <AnMaster> aborting if the program gets into infinite loop
14:26:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, found two bugs so far
14:26:57 <Deewiant> heh
14:26:58 <AnMaster> of about 50 tests or so
14:27:08 <Deewiant> what kind of stuff
14:27:23 <AnMaster> one where I checked for (unsigend int - other unsigned int) > 0
14:27:25 <AnMaster> XD
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14:27:31 <AnMaster> the other the t in k
14:27:48 <AnMaster> aiee
14:27:52 <AnMaster> ▒┴␋␍@├┤│ ·/␌/␌°┤┼±␊/├┤┼┐ $
14:27:55 <AnMaster> my terminal now
14:27:59 * AnMaster uses reset to reset it
14:29:20 <Deewiant> I'd make a script which runs that repeatedly, piping cfunge to /dev/null, and only stopping when you hit a segfault
14:30:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well some programs do have issues like infinite loop
14:30:20 <AnMaster> so I'd need a timeout of some kind
14:30:37 <Deewiant> of course
14:30:38 <Deewiant> run for 1 second
14:30:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also the t in k wasn't a segfault, it was just valgrind "invalid read"
14:30:55 <Deewiant> ah
14:31:01 <Deewiant> well, you can check for whatever of course
14:31:07 <Deewiant> run once normally, check for segfault
14:31:12 <Deewiant> run once under valgrind, check for segfault or errors
14:31:22 <Deewiant> and any other mem/whatever testers you want
14:31:26 <AnMaster> things do segfault under valgrind too normally
14:31:40 <AnMaster> I haven't seen valgrind ever preventing a segfault from happening?
14:32:23 <Deewiant> I have
14:32:29 <AnMaster> hm
14:32:34 <Deewiant> and programs that segfault only in valgrind
14:32:39 <Deewiant> weird stuff
14:32:56 <AnMaster> well the latter yes
14:33:09 <AnMaster> if I link against boehm-gc it will segfault under valgrind
14:33:20 <AnMaster> not odd considering both mess with memory in odd ways
14:34:34 <AnMaster> tix=0 tid=0 x=324 y=0: (32)
14:34:34 <AnMaster> tix=0 tid=0 x=325 y=0: (32)
14:34:36 <AnMaster> huh
14:34:39 <AnMaster> that shouldn't happen
14:34:58 <AnMaster> it is a known issue that is does not print several space in row currently
14:34:59 <AnMaster> so wtf
14:35:26 <AnMaster> oh wait
14:35:30 <AnMaster> it was in a string
14:35:32 <AnMaster> that explains it
14:37:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw some output quite funny stuff
14:37:35 <AnMaster> this was one:
14:37:36 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/ZtwV5r41.html
14:37:45 <AnMaster> looks like a hillside viewed from the side IMO
14:37:51 <Deewiant> heh
14:38:13 <Deewiant> wait long enough and you'll get the works of Shakespeare ;-)
14:38:14 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/qq4XGt40.html was another such
14:38:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, XD
14:38:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I wonder, you know, those that study evolving programs, using simulated genetics thing?
14:39:06 <AnMaster> how would that work on befunge?
14:39:11 <AnMaster> maybe a project for you?
14:39:16 <Deewiant> :-P
14:39:33 <Deewiant> I've got enough work as it is :-)
14:39:36 <AnMaster> oh one that prints a endless stream of "ggggggggggggggggggggg" and so on
14:39:59 <AnMaster> using a few thousands instructions for each g
14:40:10 <Deewiant> hah
14:40:52 <AnMaster> tix=64 tid=66 x=20 y=1: N (1128682830) <- the thing inside () is the ASCII code, I guess (char) wraps around heh
15:07:23 <Sgeo> Well, I really have to go now. Bye all!
15:10:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so I made an option to compile with alarm that causes program abort in case of too long running program
15:10:12 <AnMaster> but yes I made a script now
15:10:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ulimit -t didn't really work for a very simple reason: valgrind summary was not showed then
15:11:33 <AnMaster> whoa another segfault
15:12:05 <AnMaster> ==23783== Warning: client switching stacks? SP change: 0x7FEFFF1D0 --> 0x5E4CD4740
15:12:06 <AnMaster> ==23783== to suppress, use: --max-stackframe=9029462672 or greater
15:12:06 <AnMaster> ==23783== Invalid write of size 8
15:12:06 <AnMaster> ==23783== at 0x4046E6: StackStackBegin (stack.c:364)
15:12:06 <AnMaster> ==23783== Address 0x5e4cd4738 is on thread 1's stack
15:12:06 <AnMaster> huh
15:13:03 <AnMaster> err wtf
15:13:10 <Deewiant> heh
15:13:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, random crash or infinite loop
15:13:38 <AnMaster> a ? instruction duh
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15:14:52 <AnMaster> ah *replaces with <*
15:21:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ccbi gives "Exited due to an error: at :0" at that thing
15:21:45 <AnMaster> at same point that cfunge segfaults
15:21:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh wait on { does ccbi allocate stuff on the stack?
15:22:01 <AnMaster> while copying elements?
15:23:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, this cause the issue for both ccbi and cfunge:
15:23:37 <AnMaster> yy$c{{{
15:24:42 <Deewiant> well hmm, I wonder why
15:24:58 <Deewiant> trying to move 1128481353 elements
15:25:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes indeed
15:25:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, mine allocates a variable length array on the stack and then overflows it
15:25:38 <AnMaster> not sure if the heap would help
15:25:47 <AnMaster> it would run out of memory either way right?
15:27:41 <Deewiant> of course
15:27:52 <Deewiant> mine uses the heap in all such cases
15:28:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, according to the specs you should reflect
15:28:14 <Deewiant> nope
15:28:20 <Deewiant> { may act like r if no more memory is available for another stack.
15:28:24 <Deewiant> two things
15:28:26 <AnMaster> right may
15:28:27 <Deewiant> first, 'may'
15:28:35 <Deewiant> second, there is mem for the other stack
15:28:45 <Deewiant> the problem is the way I do {
15:28:46 <AnMaster> actually why the temp storage hrrm
15:28:55 <Deewiant> If the SOSS contains k elements, where k is less than n, the k elements are transferred as the top k elements and the remaining bottom (n-k) elements are filled in with zero-value cells.
15:28:56 <AnMaster> I don't need it in fact
15:29:10 <Deewiant> what I do is I just pop n elements from the SOSS
15:29:29 <Deewiant> and they'll become zeroes after the SOSS is emptied, of course
15:30:11 <Deewiant> but they need to be put in temp storage and allocating a 4-gigabyte array doesn't work
15:30:18 <Deewiant> but in any case, it doesn't matter
15:30:27 <Deewiant> since they wouldn't fit on the stack
15:30:30 <AnMaster> actually if I can't allocate temp storage, there is no space for the new stack either
15:30:35 <Deewiant> as growing the stack to 4 gigabytes doesn't work either :-P
15:34:41 <AnMaster> hm what about } then
15:35:01 <AnMaster> transfering 1128481353 elements that way doesn't work either
15:35:13 <AnMaster> but can you reflect on that?
15:35:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ?
15:35:21 <Deewiant> up to you
15:35:30 <Deewiant> can you detect whether the host machine has enough mem for that?
15:36:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well other programs can use memory, then linux will overcommit memory and so on
15:37:03 <AnMaster> so hard to say if it will work in advance
15:37:20 <AnMaster> but I will make it reflect in both cases
15:37:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I *can* check if malloc returns NULL
15:37:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you'd have to check every time you grow the stack
15:38:02 <Deewiant> if you want to, I guess that's fine
15:38:06 <Deewiant> the alternative is to crash hard.
15:38:14 <Deewiant> the specs, as usual, say nothing.
15:38:16 <AnMaster> well yes I mean, I can check on allocating temp storage
15:38:18 <AnMaster> for transfer
15:38:29 <Deewiant> but you'd have to check on growing the stack as well
15:38:36 <Deewiant> because you need to move all that temp to the stack :-P
15:38:47 <AnMaster> I do that already
15:39:00 <AnMaster> in that case I simply abort()
15:39:20 <AnMaster> because no funge program will ever be coded to accept reflect on, say, 5
15:39:31 <Deewiant> you can't know that
15:39:32 <Deewiant> :-P
15:39:35 <AnMaster> so normally reflecting on push is just pointless
15:39:41 <AnMaster> and will mess up stuff even more
15:39:50 <AnMaster> I just perror and abort
15:40:02 <AnMaster> on stack transfer however
15:41:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the thing that really confused me was valgrind's cryptic message when I overflowed stack space
15:41:24 <Deewiant> seems clear enough to me
15:41:29 <AnMaster> I think it is possible some kernel internals reallocated stack to make it grow
15:41:34 <AnMaster> first time at least
15:48:34 <AnMaster> there mine is fixed
15:48:35 <AnMaster> hehe
15:48:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ^
15:49:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: ?
15:49:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as in "does not crash"
15:49:35 <AnMaster> oh and why does CCBI give such cryptic errors?
15:49:52 <Deewiant> I /think/ it's an error thrown by the RTS
15:50:03 <AnMaster> RTS?
15:50:10 <Deewiant> since it's an OutOfMemoryError there's no guarantee that there's enough memory to allocate an error message
15:50:13 <Deewiant> so it has no data
15:50:18 <Deewiant> run-time system
15:50:20 <AnMaster> aha
15:50:51 <AnMaster> a lot of programs/libraries pre-allocates stuff for that in a static array
15:51:02 <Deewiant> well there's not really much to say
15:51:14 <Deewiant> you know it's an OOM exception since it has no msg :-)
15:52:35 <Deewiant> and like said, I could fix CCBI (would be trivial, wrap try {} around the whole func instead of just the new stack creation bit), but I don't think there's much point
15:53:05 <Deewiant> what should be done is checking it for every instruction
15:53:17 <AnMaster> which would be slow
15:53:24 <Deewiant> which would be mostly pointless
15:53:44 <Deewiant> at this point, I defer to people: if somebody wants to use CCBI with an app using that much memory, I'll implement it
15:53:44 <AnMaster> ah a false positive
15:53:47 <Deewiant> but not until then :-P
15:53:59 <AnMaster> I check if exit code is greater than 100, and not the one of alarm
15:54:09 <AnMaster> so false positives can happen
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15:54:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still a good script
15:55:18 <Deewiant> I know, it was my idea ;-)
15:55:33 <AnMaster> yeah but my implementation
15:55:34 <AnMaster> ;P
15:56:36 <ehird> installing realplayer on linux at the last minute is not fun
15:56:58 <ehird> hurry UP you stupid computer
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15:58:30 <ehird> hello, ais523
15:58:36 <ais523> hi, ehird
15:58:46 <ehird> DID YOU KNOW: bbc's online radio player is hell to get working on linux
15:59:10 * ehird should probably rant about it other places than #esoteric though
15:59:11 <ehird> ;)
16:01:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, want the script? it depends on the interpreter existing with the return code of alarm to detect "time out"
16:03:16 <AnMaster> also I haven't tested if return codes for those are same on other systems
16:06:17 <Deewiant> nah, I'm good as long as you test whatever crashes cfunge on CCBI as well ;-)
16:07:42 <SimonRC> http://www.nethack.org/2008-04-01.html
16:07:48 <SimonRC> ooh, new NH release
16:08:17 <AnMaster> wow
16:08:24 <ehird> is it at 1.0 yet
16:08:26 <ehird> :p
16:08:29 <AnMaster> or joke?
16:08:33 <ehird> web integration?
16:08:33 <AnMaster> ehird, duh it is 3.x
16:08:34 <ehird> hah
16:08:35 <ehird> april fools
16:08:44 <AnMaster> yeah
16:08:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I just opened it
16:08:56 <ehird> internet jackass day is fun!
16:09:11 <AnMaster> ehird, ah yes inspircd's one was very fun
16:09:27 <ehird> http://mail.google.com/mail/help/customtime/index.html Brilliant!
16:09:28 <AnMaster> http://www.inspircd.org/forum//showthread.php?t=2978
16:09:31 <AnMaster> err
16:09:37 <AnMaster> http://www.inspircd.org/forum/showthread.php?p=4972
16:09:39 <AnMaster> I meant
16:09:47 <AnMaster> ehird, yes and saw the Virgle thing?
16:09:53 <AnMaster> Virgel
16:09:54 <AnMaster> I mean
16:09:56 <ehird> hmm
16:09:58 <ehird> where's slashdots
16:09:59 <AnMaster> err spelling
16:10:04 <ehird> AnMaster: no i just got online
16:10:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't read slashdot
16:10:13 <ehird> neither do i
16:10:14 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway google did several this year
16:10:15 <ehird> except on april 1
16:10:23 <AnMaster> ehird, Virgle was one
16:10:31 <ehird> AnMaster: uuugh, i hate that inspircd community
16:10:32 <ehird> 'For those of you who didn't figure out already, (DUH) this is an April Fools joke :-)'
16:10:44 <ehird> for everyone too retarded to be of any use to anyone, this was a joke! ha! ha! ha!
16:10:47 <ehird> :D
16:11:01 <AnMaster> ehird, you know both w00t and Brain are developers btw
16:11:11 <ehird> it's still lame to point out april fools jokes :<
16:11:16 <AnMaster> that comment wasn't there this morning though
16:11:21 <AnMaster> and Brain should have waited
16:11:25 <AnMaster> until tomorrow IMO
16:13:11 <ehird> should've never posted, its more fun when people still don't get it days later
16:13:48 <ehird> HAHA wow
16:13:50 <ehird> youtube wins
16:13:54 <ehird> try one of the featured videos
16:14:21 <AnMaster> ehird, already know that
16:14:30 <AnMaster> waiting for the RFC
16:14:37 <ehird> oh joy, the rfc!
16:14:48 <ehird> it may be after 12am here, but on the internets the fools have only just begun :D
16:15:00 <AnMaster> it isn't out yet
16:15:01 <AnMaster> sigh
16:15:04 <AnMaster> tis apr 1 17:15:03 CEST 2008
16:15:07 <AnMaster> already late here
16:15:07 <AnMaster> :/
16:15:15 <ehird> 16:15
16:15:21 <ehird> no problem though
16:15:28 <ehird> i can still enjoy the ones
16:15:39 <AnMaster> the ones?
16:16:15 <ehird> AnMaster: on the internets
16:16:57 <AnMaster> ah
16:17:02 <AnMaster> internets ....
16:17:03 <AnMaster> :/
16:17:50 <ehird> hmm
16:17:55 <ehird> ais523: did you see the bbcs april fool?
16:17:57 <ehird> the flying penguins
16:18:08 <ais523> ehird: I haven't seen any of them yet
16:18:16 <ais523> but I hope that's a Linux joke
16:18:17 <ehird> ais523: it was on bbc1 or something earlier today
16:18:23 <ehird> ais523: and no, unfortunately
16:18:26 <ehird> obviously not
16:18:30 <ehird> it was on the BBC's main tv channel
16:18:31 <ehird> ;p
16:19:24 <ehird> ais523: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/page/item/epeng001.shtml?src=ip_potpw
16:19:51 <AnMaster> "Sorry, this programme is only available to play in the UK (Why?)"
16:19:53 <AnMaster> that's all?
16:19:54 <AnMaster> ehird, ?
16:20:05 <ehird> AnMaster: uh, because it's the bbc
16:20:12 <AnMaster> so most ppl can't see it
16:20:15 <ehird> legal issues etc with broadcasting
16:20:18 <AnMaster> I read about it on another site though
16:20:20 <ehird> BBC = british broadcasting corporation
16:20:25 <ehird> they are a non-profit
16:20:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I know what BBC is
16:20:29 <ehird> well
16:20:30 <ehird> kind of non-profit
16:20:35 <ehird> a little bit is non-profit
16:20:36 <AnMaster> it's public service yes
16:20:37 <AnMaster> ..
16:20:37 <ehird> pretending to be, at least
16:20:51 <ehird> but with all the corporation on top of it i actually have no idea how you can define the BBC's status exactly
16:20:51 <AnMaster> we got public service TV/radio in Sweden too
16:21:21 <ais523> the reason being that all British people have to pay tax to the BBC to be allowed to watch their programs
16:21:25 <ehird> yeah, ais523
16:21:30 <ais523> you can get out of it, but only if you can prove that you don't have a television
16:21:32 <AnMaster> ok I know how to work around that
16:21:37 <AnMaster> tor exit node in UK
16:21:38 <AnMaster> :)
16:21:46 <ehird> AnMaster: that'll be sooo good for streaming videos..
16:21:51 <ehird> lovely and zippy and fast
16:21:54 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah that's the downside :(
16:23:06 <ehird> can you listen to bbc streaming radio outside of uk?
16:23:07 <ehird> i imagine not
16:23:14 <AnMaster> yes I think you can
16:23:17 <AnMaster> or could at least
16:23:20 <AnMaster> a year ago or so
16:23:40 <AnMaster> and you could watch TV outside UK before too, at lower resolution
16:23:47 <ehird> Rights agreements mean that BBC iPlayer television programmes are only available to users to download or stream (Click to Play) in the UK. However, BBC Worldwide is working on an international version, which we will make available as soon as possible.
16:23:47 <ehird>
16:23:47 <ehird> Radio programmes are available outside the UK in addition to podcasts at http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/podcasts/directory/. Many BBC News programmes are available for viewers outside the UK at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/video_and_audio/default.stm, BBC Sport highlights are available at http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport and BBC Radio stations are available at http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/
16:24:17 <AnMaster> yeah it was news I watched
16:24:27 <ais523> iPlayer has massive DRM, though
16:24:33 <AnMaster> I see
16:24:38 <AnMaster> so won't ever work on linux?
16:24:46 <ais523> well, all the Linux people complained
16:25:00 <ais523> so they made a 'streaming' version using Flash, which can of course be captured by tech-savvy people
16:25:09 <AnMaster> ah
16:25:19 <AnMaster> yeah, of course it can :)
16:25:26 <ais523> but that doesn't work on the iPhone, so they also made a completely DRM-free version with a user-agent check to see if you're an iPhone
16:25:32 <ais523> guess how well that secures it...
16:25:44 <ehird> ais523: probably the drm was required
16:25:46 <ehird> beyond their control
16:25:51 <ais523> ehird: yes
16:25:55 <ehird> btw: PHP is funny! "9999999999999999" == "10000000000000000", "0xa" == "1e1"
16:25:58 <ais523> but they shouldn't have asked Microsoft to design it
16:26:16 <ehird> ais523: meh. the flash version works ok for me
16:26:20 <ehird> and i can always rip em
16:26:36 <AnMaster> whoo, make install of libxslt fails with make -j2
16:26:36 <AnMaster> heh
16:26:50 <ehird> AnMaster: lots of things do
16:26:52 <ehird> recursive make, etc
16:27:03 <ehird> not like 'make' takes a long time ..
16:27:03 <AnMaster> ehird, well I have seen recursive make that works with it
16:27:11 <Deewiant> ehird: "0" == false == "" != "0"
16:27:18 <AnMaster> ehird, depend on what you are building
16:27:26 <AnMaster> ehird, say, firefox?
16:27:34 <AnMaster> or qt?
16:27:38 <ais523> AnMaster: C-INTERCAL also fails with make -j2, probably because the dependencies on header files generated by bison are slightly wrong
16:28:03 <AnMaster> hm I wonder if I can make something not build without -j2
16:28:13 <AnMaster> and not "work sometimes" with -j2
16:28:17 <AnMaster> but always work with it
16:28:27 <ehird> Deewiant: yeah, but ... "0xa" == "1e1"
16:28:32 <ais523> AnMaster: just write the dependencies in such a way that there are hidden dependencies that are implied by the dependencies you've written, but not stated
16:28:46 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but that could fail under -j2 too
16:28:48 <ais523> ehird: 0xa==1e1 is true in C too
16:28:52 <Deewiant> ehird: each integer in a PHP array takes 68 bytes of storage
16:28:58 <ehird> ais523: not in strings
16:29:00 <Deewiant> ais523: yeah, but these are strings.
16:29:05 <ehird> Deewiant: yeah, i read reddit too ;)
16:29:11 <ais523> AnMaster: sorry, I misread your question
16:29:31 <ais523> Deewiant: I noticed, but string comparison of numbers is fine if you have a separate compare-as-strings operator
16:29:42 <ais523> in perl, "02" == "2", but "02" ne "2"
16:29:54 <AnMaster> ais523, so would it be possible?
16:30:06 <ais523> I'm thinking
16:30:19 <ais523> what about writing a hidden dependency
16:30:27 <ehird> ais523: === compares type&value in php
16:30:28 <ehird> but...
16:30:28 <AnMaster> yes you will always need that
16:30:29 <ais523> but having the file that's needed rmd at the end of the step
16:30:32 <ehird> "0xa" == "1e1"!!!!!!
16:30:46 <AnMaster> ais523, hm still I think order may fail
16:30:57 <AnMaster> unless maybe build an app, and have make run it wait for a file to exist or something like that
16:30:58 <ais523> so I have thing3:thing1 and thing2:thing1
16:31:21 <ais523> thing3 creates thing2.h at the start of the instructions and deletes it at the end
16:31:22 <AnMaster> ais523, still you can't know in what order they will be exectued
16:31:34 <ais523> and thing2 needs thing2.h somewhere in the middle
16:31:50 <AnMaster> ais523, hm you would still need some kind of mutex
16:32:06 <ais523> you can't know for certain, but if those are the only two things that depend on thing1 and everything else depends on one of those, then make would be stupid not to put things in the order where the -j2 works
16:32:14 <AnMaster> maybe building an app first and have that app called in both rules to sync them in some way?
16:32:24 <ais523> AnMaster: named pipes
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16:32:33 <AnMaster> ais523, uhu?
16:32:37 <ais523> have one rule write to a named pipe
16:32:41 <ais523> and another rule read from it
16:32:43 <AnMaster> a fifo?
16:32:45 <ais523> yes
16:32:52 <AnMaster> hm
16:32:54 <AnMaster> ok
16:32:54 <ais523> they'll both block until they're in sync
16:32:56 <AnMaster> interesting
16:33:05 <ais523> but without -j2 you'll get an infinite loop, because the one rule will block forever
16:33:10 <AnMaster> yeah
16:33:23 <AnMaster> ais523, and all package maintainers will forever curse me ;)
16:33:35 <Deewiant> ehird: in essence, == in PHP is crap, never use it
16:33:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not even when comparing numbers?
16:34:01 <ehird> Deewiant: In essence, PHP is crap, never use it
16:34:05 <AnMaster> say a=3; if ($a == 3)
16:34:14 <ehird> AnMaster: you mean $a=3
16:34:17 <ehird> ha! ha! ha!
16:34:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: only if you're 110% sure they're both numbers
16:34:22 <AnMaster> oh
16:34:24 <ehird> yes, you must prefix every variable, everywhere with $
16:34:27 <ehird> it isn't even a sigil
16:34:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not PHP programmer
16:34:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but if you are, might as well use ===...
16:34:29 <ehird> like % or @
16:34:30 <ehird> it's $
16:34:33 <ehird> for no reason
16:34:36 <ehird> every variable must start with $
16:34:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, eh ===?
16:34:38 <ehird> oh
16:34:41 <ehird> and variable variables!
16:34:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: essentially, typesafe ==
16:34:50 <ehird> $$foo, where $foo = 'hello', is $hello
16:34:51 <ehird> :D
16:34:56 <ehird> i believe they can nest
16:35:12 <AnMaster> oh god
16:35:15 <ehird> yep
16:35:18 <ehird> its so funny
16:35:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: or rather, returns false if they're of differing types, so not really 'safe' but at least it's always right
16:35:56 <AnMaster> hm the fuzz test isn't finding anything new any longer
16:36:22 <AnMaster> anyway it isn't useful for fingerprints or IO
16:37:01 <Deewiant> you can test fingerprints, too, just prepend "ASDF"4( to the program
16:37:05 <ehird> oh god this REM song again
16:37:07 <ehird> bloody hell
16:37:19 * ehird should shout at mplayer instead of konversation
16:37:21 <ehird> probably.
16:37:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, true
16:37:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, need to know what fingerprint I want to test, not easily to do randomly though
16:38:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and for IO I'm too lazy to set up a chroot for this
16:38:34 <Deewiant> AnMaster: just run a couple (dozen/hundred/whatever) times for each print
16:38:41 <ehird> hmm
16:38:45 <ehird> i have a file in ~ called 1
16:38:51 <ehird> another called _#84*\\1-:0\\:0\\#_5553ppppppppppppppppppppppppp
16:39:00 <ehird> and one called ,,,,,[-
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16:39:15 <AnMaster> ehird, those latter look like funge
16:39:17 <ais523> ehird: I often accidentally create files called 1
16:39:27 <ais523> it's easy to type 2>1 rather than 2>&1 by mistake
16:39:37 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah but that doesn't explain the other two
16:39:58 <AnMaster> eh
16:39:59 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
16:40:18 <ais523> hmm... the second one looks very like a Funge program in some ways, but the backslashes seem to imply it isn't
16:40:18 <ehird> the second-last looks like funge
16:40:20 <ehird> the last is brainfuck
16:40:27 <AnMaster> yeah
16:40:41 <ais523> ,,,,, isn't very useful Brainfuck anyway in most cases
16:40:46 <AnMaster> ais523, \ exists in funge
16:40:53 <AnMaster> and well ls may escape \
16:40:54 <AnMaster> iirc
16:40:56 <ais523> AnMaster: always in pairs?
16:41:02 <ais523> oh
16:41:09 <AnMaster> ais523, as I said, something may have escaped it
16:41:25 <ais523> what's the betting that there were < or > characters at the ends of the Brainfuck or (presumably Unefunge) programs?
16:41:28 <AnMaster> ais523, but no, \ is used to swap top items of stack
16:41:58 <AnMaster> ais523, for funge, why not, befunge at least
16:42:01 <ais523> so yes, the second one is probably Unefunge assuming that the \ have been doubled by something
16:42:03 <AnMaster> to wrap
16:42:15 <ais523> because it would be unlikely to type Befunge in on the command line...
16:42:18 <AnMaster> eh
16:42:20 <ehird> ais523: Wow. apparently BBC Northwest rickroll'd the news.
16:42:34 <ehird> that's just crazy
16:42:47 <AnMaster> ais523, to me it looks quite like that "sucide program" someone made
16:42:51 <AnMaster> not exactly but close
16:42:58 <AnMaster> ie, it removed itself from memory
16:43:01 <ais523> the row of ps is what makes it look like that
16:43:06 <AnMaster> indeed
16:43:34 <ehird> wow...
16:43:38 <AnMaster> ehird, what?
16:43:39 <ehird> webcomics are redirecting to each other
16:43:43 <ehird> that's confusing
16:43:45 <AnMaster> ehird, ah yes
16:43:50 <AnMaster> xkcd and two other
16:43:51 <AnMaster> hehe
16:43:52 <ehird> xkcd.com takes 3 hops to actually get to xkcd
16:44:03 <ehird> xkcd redir> questionablecontent redir> dinosaur comics redir> xkcd
16:44:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I found out hours ago
16:44:34 * ais523 checks to see what Wikipedia are doing
16:44:36 <ehird> i just got on the interwebs earlier this hour
16:44:37 <ehird> :(
16:44:42 <AnMaster> ais523, they do something?
16:44:47 <AnMaster> haven't noticed before
16:45:10 <ehird> Ima Hogg
16:45:11 <ehird> lmao
16:45:11 <ais523> AnMaster: generally they feature an article with the Main Page summary written to look like it's an April Fools' joke, but is actually true
16:45:11 <ehird> AnMaster: featured article
16:45:18 <ais523> last year they featured George Washington
16:45:27 <ehird> ais523: not the president, though
16:45:29 <ais523> but it was a different person with that name, not the American president
16:45:29 <AnMaster> and?
16:45:43 <ehird> jesus
16:45:46 <ehird> Talk:Main_Page
16:45:48 <ehird> has a notice about it
16:45:53 <ehird> i hate the world :(
16:47:09 <ais523> some admins are trying harder: see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Tagline&diff=next&oldid=202527747 for instance
16:47:19 <ais523> for those who don't know, that line's on every page on the entire wiki
16:47:59 <AnMaster> yeah I know
16:48:09 <AnMaster> it's in the MediaWiki namespace after all
16:48:50 <ais523> heh, the on this day is quite good as well
16:48:53 <ehird> ais523: hmm
16:48:56 <ehird> that revert is :(
16:49:06 <ais523> there have been edit wars there all day
16:49:11 <ais523> and admins are getting blocked, as usual
16:49:19 <AnMaster> eh
16:49:19 <ais523> April 1 must be the record day for admin blocks
16:49:20 <AnMaster> what?
16:49:24 <ehird> bureaucracy..
16:49:27 <AnMaster> oh?
16:49:29 <AnMaster> weird
16:49:30 <ais523> they're normally given an expiry time of 00:01 April 2
16:49:38 <AnMaster> ah
16:52:38 <ehird> oh yay, I Might Be Wrong
16:56:54 <ais523> wow: http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2008/03/31/microsoft_india_tax_ruling/
16:57:01 <ais523> it's dated March 31, so is hopefully true
16:58:20 <ehird> march 31 is popualr for april fools
16:58:21 <ehird> unfortunately
16:58:29 <ehird> its not like the Register is often accurate though
16:59:28 <SimonRC> the BBC have an iPlayer thing about Rick "Roll" Astley
17:00:32 <SimonRC> http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7320000/newsid_7323500/7323544.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&news=1&bbcws=1
17:01:46 <ehird> SimonRC: apparently bbc northwest rickrolld the news
17:02:05 <ehird> maybe that's it
17:02:06 <SimonRC> um, how?
17:02:10 <ehird> not watching, busy listening to the radio
17:02:17 <ehird> SimonRC: um, by showing rickroll on the news
17:02:31 <SimonRC> surely it doesn't count unless you are tricked into clicking it?
17:02:51 <SimonRC> BTW, all YouTube's featured videos redirected to rr too
17:02:56 <ehird> HAHAHA
17:02:57 <SimonRC> on the fron page, at least
17:03:01 <ehird> Now playing: 'Radio Head by Talking Heads'
17:03:05 <ehird> that's just teasing
17:03:56 <SimonRC> then there're the flying penguins...
17:04:09 <SimonRC> including video on YouTube
17:05:12 <SimonRC> of course, the bbc news rr is on YT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spOOo0oyM5U
17:05:31 <ehird> i haven't seen the usual stupid ones yet
17:05:32 <ehird> thank god
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18:11:12 <RodgerTheGreat> hey everyone
18:11:20 <ehird> hi
18:11:25 <ais523> RodgerTheGreat: hi
18:11:37 <RodgerTheGreat> hi ehird, ais523- what's up, guys?
18:11:47 <ais523> ok, what I'm going to do is this:
18:12:16 <ais523> C-INTERCAL 0.28 has just been released, so I'm going to announce the rival compiler CLC-INTERCAL instead
18:12:35 <ais523> the latest version available at http://www.intercal.ukfsn.org/download/CLC-INTERCAL-1.-94.-2/ and claims to be dated today
18:12:42 <ais523> I'm then going to let ehird announce the compiler I wrote
18:13:57 <ehird> haha
18:14:09 <ehird> that will be confusing :D
18:14:31 <ehird> that will be my first comp.lang.intercal post
18:14:33 <ehird> scary
18:14:57 <ais523> oh, I thout you were just goign to announce it here
18:15:05 <ehird> ah, that's a good point
18:15:11 <ehird> but you've just told everyone
18:15:14 <ais523> and it's actually alt.lang.intercal because nobody seriously thought the Big 8 would approve it
18:15:17 <ais523> ehird: that was the joke
18:15:21 <ehird> ah
18:15:22 <ehird> :D
18:15:23 <ais523> but I didn't say where it was
18:15:27 <ais523> so it isn't really released
18:15:28 <ehird> that's a good point
18:15:50 <ehird> but isn't the joke kind of thin now, after me just misunderstanding it and you explaining what's funny about it? :p
18:16:22 <ais523> yes
18:16:45 <ais523> wait a moment
18:17:53 <ehird> actually, even if you had suggested usenet, i'd have to post through google groups and that would be embarrasing ;)
18:17:59 <ehird> don't think my isp offers usenet
18:18:56 <ais523> C-INTERCAL is available at <http://www.intercal.ukfsn.org/download/ick-0-28.tgz>, <http://intercal.freeshell.org/download/ick-0-28.tgz>, and <http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/ick-0-28.tgz>
18:19:31 <ehird> heh, did they just put it on freehsell?
18:19:31 <ehird> :D
18:19:48 <ais523> the changelog is at <http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/ick-0.28/NEWS.txt>
18:19:50 <ais523> ehird: yes
18:19:59 <ais523> but it's nice to have multiple mirrors
18:20:00 <ehird> i am fasterr! ;)
18:20:02 <ehird> yes
18:20:03 <ehird> it is
18:20:13 <ais523> now I have to compose a witty message
18:20:29 <ehird> ais523: you have donated C-INTERCAL to the gnu project
18:20:31 <ais523> quoting continuation.i will probably be good
18:20:34 <ais523> ehird: where?
18:20:40 <ehird> ais523: i meant as a witty message
18:20:43 <ehird> not really that funny though
18:21:01 <ehird> hmm
18:21:04 <ais523> ESR got there first:
18:21:07 <ais523> "
18:21:07 <ais523> Someday, maybe, this will be made part of GNU.
18:21:07 <ais523> ;; But probably not unless they take many mind-eroding drugs first.
18:21:09 <ais523> "
18:21:11 <ehird> i'll put a README.txt on my site
18:21:18 <ais523> comment in http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/ick-0.28/etc/intercal.el
18:21:22 <ehird> in case anyone wonders who the hell this elliotthird guy is
18:21:30 <ehird> and what he's doing hosting c-intercal expanded tarballs
18:21:51 <ehird> ais523: ah :)
18:22:06 <ehird> ais523: you could say that you are going to reimplement seaside in it
18:22:15 <ehird> but that probably won't be familiar with most a.l.intercal people
18:22:34 <ehird> maybe just something along the lines of C-INTERCAL being a pioneer in the next generation of web development as you can use continuations with them?
18:22:43 <ais523> I'll say that you challenged me to write a continuation library in INTERCAL
18:22:47 <ehird> and a blurb about productivity benefits over Java & COBOL ("two other well-known web languages")
18:22:48 <ais523> and that I managed it in 24 hours
18:22:53 <ais523> nobody will believe that
18:22:53 <ehird> ais523: yes!
18:23:09 <ehird> 'INTERCAL is 10x more rapid than Java and COBOL, and 3x faster than Ruby.'
18:23:17 <ehird> also a crap joke
18:23:21 <ehird> (Ruby is slow as molasses)
18:23:25 <ehird> make your own jokes
18:23:26 <ehird> ;)
18:23:47 <ehird> ais523: hmm, should i serve .doc as text/plain?
18:23:51 <ehird> right now it's serving as a word file
18:23:54 <ais523> probably
18:24:02 <ais523> that extension scheme wasn't my fault
18:24:09 <ais523> it's legacy stuff
18:24:17 <ais523> probably dates from before Word became popular...
18:24:32 <ehird> http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/ick-0.28/pit/t_tet
18:24:33 <ehird> what is 'tet'?
18:24:40 <ais523> not sure
18:24:48 <ais523> that file has no extension
18:24:57 <ais523> and is a data file either for the Intercal FFT, or for the Game of Life program
18:24:57 <ehird> Content-Type: application/msword
18:24:58 <ehird> i'll fix that
18:25:13 <ehird> my server is ready to handle just about anything right now though
18:25:17 <ehird> so feel free to post any urls publically
18:26:36 <ehird> ais523: hmm
18:26:39 <ehird> i can host the html documentation
18:26:40 <ehird> if you want
18:27:05 <ais523> that's being hosted at freeshell, but good idea
18:27:23 <ais523> you'll have to regenerate it first, but doc/Makefile can do that easily enough
18:27:34 <ehird> ais523: what directory name, though?
18:27:40 <ehird> perhaps i should make a directory name for each release
18:27:53 <ehird> http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/0.28/ick-0.28
18:27:56 <ehird> http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/0.28/ick-0-28.tgz
18:28:02 <ehird> http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/0.28/docs
18:28:12 <ais523> decide quickly, before I finish writing this announcement!
18:28:18 <ehird> ais523: haha, well
18:28:25 <ehird> if you can give me a good name for a documentation url
18:28:27 <ehird> without one like that
18:28:30 <ehird> then i won't chang eit
18:29:02 <ais523> c-intercal/doc-0.28 would be one way to do it
18:29:36 <ehird> ais523: well, you decide. depends how you'd like it layed out, really
18:29:49 <ais523> I don't really mind
18:30:04 <ehird> ais523: yes, but there's no real distinction, and it's your compiler, so i'm going to let you decide :p
18:30:16 <ais523> go for doc-0.28 then
18:30:20 <ehird> okay
18:30:35 <ehird> ais523: how would i go about building it without trashing the source tree?
18:31:20 <ais523> easiest to copy the makefile, *.txi, and *.css from doc into a separate directory, and doing it there with make ickhtml
18:31:31 <ais523> wait, you also need to copy *.pl across
18:31:43 <ais523> because I use Perl to do a bit of formatting and touching-up
18:32:02 <ehird> ais523: then just 'make'?
18:32:09 <ais523> make ickhtml
18:32:19 <ais523> there are different targets for each possible version
18:32:26 <ehird> ais523: the other kinds of documentation are already in the source tree, right?
18:32:28 <ehird> so i just need the html
18:32:42 <ais523> ehird: only the .txt and .info are built by default
18:32:48 <ais523> there's make all to generate it in all formats
18:32:57 <ehird> ais523: what others are there?
18:33:03 <ehird> pdf
18:33:05 <ehird> and html i guess
18:33:07 <ais523> PDF, info, plain text, two HTML formats
18:33:11 <ehird> two?
18:33:12 <ehird> ah
18:33:15 <ehird> single file & multi file
18:33:19 <ehird> i'll only do multi file
18:33:23 <ehird> seems like the only useful one to me
18:33:43 <ehird> make: *** No rule to make target `tidy.cfg', needed by `html/index.htm'. Stop.
18:33:56 <ehird> copied that over too
18:33:56 <ais523> that's in the dir too, I forgot it was needed
18:34:04 <ais523> even though I remembered that tidy was
18:34:12 <ais523> (texinfo produces lousy HTML, it badly needs the tidy)
18:34:43 <ehird> ais523: i'll put it at http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/doc-0.28/html/ in case i ever need new formats
18:34:45 <ehird> actually, wait
18:34:53 <ehird> i doubt i'll ever publish more formats
18:34:53 <ehird> so.
18:35:34 <ehird> ais523: so it'll just be
18:35:36 <ehird> http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/doc-0.28/
18:35:40 <ehird> OK?
18:35:41 <ais523> OK
18:36:05 <ehird> ok
18:36:07 <ehird> have a canonical url
18:36:08 <ehird> http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/doc-0.28/
18:36:09 <ehird> WITH the slash
18:36:16 <ehird> since it's a directory
18:36:23 <ais523> yes
18:36:31 <ehird> okay
18:36:32 <ehird> i think that's it
18:36:49 <ehird> okies
18:36:51 <ehird> now i'll announce here
18:36:54 <ehird> *a-hem*
18:37:08 * Iskr claps
18:37:36 <ehird> C-INTERCAL 0.28 is available at http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/ick-0-28.tgz. The changelog is at http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/ick-0.28/NEWS.txt, and documentation at http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/doc-0.28/.
18:37:57 <ehird> It is also available at http://www.intercal.ukfsn.org/download/ick-0-28.tgz and http://intercal.freeshell.org/download/ick-0-28.tgz.
18:38:01 * Iskr reclaps
18:38:10 <ehird> *end of release.txt
18:38:18 <ehird> Iskr: i know, isn't it brilliant
18:38:41 <Iskr> well i wanted to ask
18:38:52 <ehird> ais523: haha:
18:38:53 <Iskr> does someone here use prolog?
18:39:01 <ehird> Iskr: yeah quite a few
18:39:24 <ais523> Iskr: I've read the manuals for a decades-old Prolog compiler, from which I learnt the language, but have never used it
18:39:32 <Iskr> #prolog channel seems dead
18:39:52 <ehird> ais523: I can't wait for the continuation.i stuff
18:40:04 <ehird> I bet people will think it's an infinite loop or something
18:40:16 <ehird> Or something that spews garbage characters
18:40:23 <ehird> But you can certainly use it as an advertising point
18:40:30 <ais523> ehird: how do you suggest that I advertise it?
18:40:51 -!- Judofyr has joined.
18:40:52 <ais523> for the time being I'm going to say that I wrote a continuation library in 24 hours, give lots of impossible-sounding details about how it was done which aren't very useful, and not link to it
18:40:56 <ehird> ais523: INTERCAL is a tried-and-tested (since 70s), well-maintained language that can be used to rapidly develop new features like continuations
18:41:13 <ais523> ehird: everyone on alt.lang.intercal know what INTERCAL is already
18:41:25 <Iskr> (if someone has used flora-2 or logtalk or other oo prolog please let me know)
18:41:26 <ehird> ais523: yeah, but release notes often include things like that
18:41:29 <ais523> but I'll paste my announcement so you can look at it and suggest improvements before sending it
18:41:32 <ehird> i was just summarizing the joke
18:41:52 <ehird> because most languages wouldn't let you implement continuations in them, let alone that fas
18:41:53 <ehird> t
18:42:10 <ehird> its a crap joke though
18:42:11 <ehird> ignore me
18:42:12 <ehird> :)
18:43:22 <ehird> ais523: I wonder how many people have found it already
18:43:41 <ais523> maybe Debian have, they have a bot watching intercal.freeshell.org for new releases
18:43:53 * SimonRC admires the new CodingHorror theme
18:43:59 <ehird> SimonRC: codinghorror is a bunch of crap
18:44:01 <ehird> on another note
18:44:04 <ehird> i am tail -f'ing my log
18:44:09 <SimonRC> ehird: huh?
18:44:11 <ehird> =ais?
18:44:27 <SimonRC> very nice, though visited links are rather similar in colour to plain text
18:44:28 <ehird> SimonRC: never seen good content there
18:44:52 <ais523> ehird: don't recognise the IP
18:44:59 <ais523> I normally start with 147
18:45:12 <ehird> ah
18:45:14 <ehird> you have hits ther too
18:45:15 <ehird> must be me
18:45:20 <SimonRC> ehird: odd, I do find interesting stuff there
18:45:21 <ehird> SimonRC: hah, the latest post is hilarious
18:45:29 <ehird> jwz uses OS X on his personal computer
18:46:32 <ehird> ais523: I am refreshing a.l.intercal in anticipation. ;)
18:46:40 <ais523> ehird: haven't finished writing it yet
18:46:47 <SimonRC> anything engineered, where mass-production is not a factor, will keep becoming harder and harder until humans can only just manage it
18:47:00 <SimonRC> see: software, any buisness, spacecraft
18:48:29 <ehird> ais523: ... http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.intercal/browse_thread/thread/5a0696843eeeb5b6/65b0d4a066a4c544#65b0d4a066a4c544
18:48:39 <ehird> you are evil
18:48:43 <SimonRC> hmm, maybe I am overstretching this
18:48:45 <ais523> not implemented anywhere yet
18:48:51 <ais523> it's still a drawing-board idea
18:49:36 -!- olsner has joined.
18:49:52 <ehird> ais523: will c-intercal ever get a 1.0?
18:49:57 <ehird> or is 0.99 followed by 0.100
18:50:03 <ais523> ehird: it has a 1.27
18:50:09 <ais523> the minor version number comes before the .
18:50:22 <ais523> with the major version number afterwards
18:50:45 <ehird> wow
18:51:00 <ehird> ais523: i have a suggestion when you get to 9.99
18:51:18 <ehird> invent a TC programming language for expressing version numbers
18:51:25 <ehird> and make it fully alphanumeric
18:51:30 <ehird> oh, and .
18:51:31 <ehird> and -
18:51:32 <ehird> so the release fater 9.99
18:51:34 <ehird> migth be:
18:51:41 <ehird> Da9-f.7
18:51:48 <ehird> and you'd have to run the interpreter to find out what it is
18:51:57 <ehird> :D
18:51:58 <ais523> ehird: Debian would really like that!
18:52:08 <ehird> ais523: isn't that a plus point? :D
18:52:12 <ais523> they have to invent version number mangling schemes for INTERCAL as it is
18:52:21 <ais523> so this will be 28:0.28-1 on Debian
18:52:37 <ais523> you should see what they do to CLC-INTERCAL version numbers, though
18:52:54 <ehird> ais523: when you release an Extra Special Release of some kind
18:53:00 <ehird> it should be a program that outputs pi in increasing accuracy
18:53:04 <ehird> so it starts
18:53:07 <ehird> 2,3,3.1
18:53:08 <ehird> etc
18:53:14 <ehird> or maybe just one that outputs pi
18:53:17 <ehird> so its
18:53:19 <ehird> 3.14......
18:53:21 <ais523> there's a pi.i already
18:53:27 <ehird> and the program never terminates because it keeps calculating
18:53:33 <ehird> i propose that the program for that version should be
18:53:36 <ais523> oh, for a version number
18:53:46 <ehird> Da90df98asdDFa0sa.D-a048aASd-ASd--A..asdAS89d82axpA0i92
18:53:52 <ehird> and then debian will kill themselves
18:53:56 <ehird> because they can't mangle it sanely
18:54:04 <ehird> well, they could try 3.14
18:54:13 <ehird> but that would clash with a real release
18:54:17 <ais523> ehird: they'll just stick a sequence number on the start
18:54:17 <ehird> whose version evaluates to 3.14
18:54:22 <ehird> ais523: that's true
18:54:27 <ehird> ais523: but i still love my idea :D
18:54:31 <ais523> hey, you've given me a great idea for an esolang
18:54:36 <ehird> of course the version evaluator would be in INTERCAL
18:54:40 <ehird> using C-INTERCAL extensions
18:54:42 <ehird> and each version,
18:54:43 <ais523> all programs and their results are stored in a central repository
18:54:47 <ehird> you update it to require features from the latest one
18:54:54 <ehird> so to find out the version, you have to download the tarball
18:54:56 <ehird> compile it
18:54:58 <ehird> compile version.i
18:55:00 <ehird> then feed it through
18:55:14 <ais523> to write a program, you just pick a random string of characters like Da90df98asdDFa0sa.D-a048aASd-ASd--A..asdAS89d82axpA0i92 that nobody has used yet, and define the result
18:55:39 <ais523> that way programs have no resemblence at all to what they do
18:55:56 <ehird> ais523: can you compose together programs?
18:55:59 <ehird> then primitives are simple
18:56:07 <ehird> just make a program ';'
18:56:11 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
18:56:12 <ehird> and define the result via a primitive function
18:56:21 -!- jix has joined.
18:56:27 <ais523> ehird: writing two programs in a row in INTERCAL normally has the effect of running the first and then quitting, unless they happen to have line numbers in common or use computed COME FROM
18:56:46 <ais523> ah, you're talking about the new idea I had
18:56:54 <ais523> the answer is maybe
18:57:59 <ehird> ais523: make it graphical
18:58:05 <ehird> you tag a value with a name
18:58:08 <ehird> and that uploads it to the repository
18:58:14 <ehird> but the value can also be the feeding of one program into another
18:58:25 <ehird> so if you have an if, passing to several functions, it's a tree structure
18:58:33 <ehird> and you have to come up with names for each 'if' or similar you write
18:58:40 <ais523> ehird: http://pastebin.ca/966339
18:58:45 <ais523> that's my draft for the announcement
18:58:56 <ais523> what do you think, and have I spelt your name correctly?
18:59:18 <ehird> ais523: Elliott
18:59:25 <ehird> the URL does have it in it, you know
18:59:38 <ehird> ais523: also, a link to the docs on mine may be helpful, since freeshell haven't updated yet
18:59:40 <ehird> last i checked
18:59:47 <ais523> yes
19:00:20 <ais523> and about your name: I nearly always get it wrong first time for some reason
19:00:29 <ehird> Everyone does :)
19:00:30 <ais523> I think my fingers have memorised something else
19:00:59 <oklopol> elliot third
19:01:13 <oklopol> elliot III
19:01:24 <ehird> ais523: also, you have no link to the changelog
19:01:35 <ehird> which is available on mine (i think the only one, since i am the only one to expand afaik)
19:01:39 <ais523> ehird: I don't normally, maybe I should
19:01:51 <ehird> ais523: it's customary, but your call
19:01:53 <ehird> http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/ick-0.28/NEWS.txt if so
19:01:59 <ais523> actually, I will, so as to give an idea of the expanded version
19:02:06 <ais523> and to give people a chance of finding continuation.i
19:02:13 <ais523> Any other changes needed?
19:03:19 <ehird> ais523: you might want to link to continuation.i directly
19:03:25 <ehird> though it may be a bit of an 'easter egg hunt'
19:03:34 <ehird> but yeah, apart from that it looks OK
19:03:36 <ais523> the easter egg hunt was the whole point
19:03:40 <ehird> apart from using < as the first character on a line
19:03:43 <ehird> looks kind of odd
19:03:48 <ais523> why?
19:04:07 <ehird> Not sure. Think it's just pastebin.ca's font.
19:04:37 <ais523> OK, I'll submit the message, then
19:05:40 <ais523> grr, Google Groups screwed up the line breaks
19:05:40 <ehird> ais523: 'thttpd/2.23beta1 26may2002'
19:05:48 <ehird> funny
19:05:50 <ehird> a beta
19:05:53 <ehird> is the most stable web server out there
19:06:00 <ehird> ais523: aww
19:06:12 <ehird> ais523: you can cancel google groups posts iirc
19:06:13 <ehird> if you do it fast
19:06:31 <ais523> nah, I'll just post an unmangled version
19:06:58 <ehird> cool
19:07:00 <ehird> TWO links to my site
19:07:01 <ehird> ;)
19:07:45 <ehird> ais523: did you link to my html docs?
19:07:49 <ais523> yes
19:07:53 <ehird> ah
19:07:55 <ehird> didn't read it properly
19:07:55 <ehird> :)
19:08:01 <ehird> yeah, i see
19:08:17 <ehird> i'm surpised my server's that fast
19:08:34 <ehird> its pretty darn good for $20/mo
19:08:45 <ehird> 256mb ram, 10gb storage, 100gb bandwidth
19:08:49 <ehird> root access and all that
19:08:52 <ais523> oh well, it mangled some on the correction, but they're /different/ URLs, so all the URLs have some correct version now
19:09:21 <ehird> ais523: you could post it with 'Revised^3' in the title
19:09:25 <ehird> that's probably not funny to intercalers though
19:09:27 <ehird> the joke:
19:09:38 <ehird> scheme's latest standard is Revised^6 Report On the Algorithmic Language Scheme
19:09:41 <ehird> originally it want
19:09:47 <ehird> Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme
19:09:50 <ehird> Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme
19:09:56 <ehird> but then it got too cumbersome
19:09:59 <ehird> so to expand in full...
19:10:11 <ehird> Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme
19:10:12 <ais523> ehird: I won't try again, there'd just be too much of a chance of a further messup
19:10:51 <ehird> yeah
19:11:28 <ehird> ais523: maybe you should tell the debian people?
19:11:32 <ehird> might speed up the flow of versions
19:11:50 <ais523> ehird: as I said, they have a bot watching intercal.freeshell.org for new versions
19:11:56 <ehird> ah
19:11:57 <ehird> ooh
19:12:00 <ais523> so generally you only have to tell them if you change the version number scheme
19:12:01 <ehird> someone on Fedora just requested my site
19:12:07 <ais523> not me
19:12:20 <ehird> yeah
19:12:23 <ehird> think it's an a.l.intercal
19:12:24 <ais523> you have tail -f on the logs, presumably
19:12:27 <ehird> yep
19:12:28 <ehird> :D
19:12:40 <ehird> unlikely that i'll get a flood of traffic though
19:13:30 <ehird> speaking of which
19:13:34 <ehird> it'd be helpful if I installed ick myself..
19:13:34 <ehird> :D
19:13:42 <ehird> well, i have an EXCELLENT place to download it from..
19:15:49 <ehird> ais523: MAJOR BUG
19:15:50 <ehird> ./config.sh: 910: Syntax error: "(" unexpected (expecting "fi")
19:16:01 <ais523> oh no
19:16:05 <ais523> let me try over here
19:16:30 <ais523> works fine for me
19:16:42 <ais523> and I generated it using the normal methods
19:16:47 <ais523> what shell are you using, and what OS?
19:17:00 <ehird> ais523: os - ubuntu 7.10
19:17:01 <ehird> shell - bash
19:17:05 <ehird> all i did was untar
19:17:05 <ais523> so am I
19:17:07 <ehird> then ./config.sh
19:17:16 <ais523> and that's all I did too, on the exact same file
19:17:17 <AnMaster> ais523, link so I can try it?
19:17:29 <ehird> AnMaster: my server has it
19:17:34 <AnMaster> ehird, and where si that?
19:17:35 <ehird> http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/ick-0-28.tgz
19:17:36 <AnMaster> is*
19:17:38 <ehird> that's where
19:17:45 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Excess Flood).
19:18:01 <ais523> ehird: there isn't a ( on line 910
19:18:23 <ehird> INFODIRFILE=(irrelevant)
19:18:24 -!- Tritonio_ has joined.
19:18:25 <ehird> the next line
19:18:34 <ehird> echo "configure: warning: Could not find Info directory file, set infodirfile in the Makefile by hand" 1>&2
19:18:38 <ehird> else
19:18:42 <ehird> echo "$ac_t""$INFODIRFILE" 1>&6
19:18:42 <ehird> fi
19:18:42 <ehird> else
19:18:42 <ehird> INFODIRFILE=(irrelevant)
19:18:42 <ehird> fi
19:18:42 <ehird> relevant context
19:18:49 <ais523> yes, there's a ( on line 911
19:18:55 <ehird> so, what's up?!
19:18:56 <ais523> but then why would it report a bug on 910
19:19:11 <AnMaster> ais523, is config.sh configure?
19:19:15 <AnMaster> by autotools?
19:19:19 <ais523> yes
19:19:25 <AnMaster> configure generated by autoconf version 2.13
19:19:26 <AnMaster> old
19:19:31 <ehird> AnMaster: boo hoo
19:19:39 <ehird> AnMaster: but does i twork for you?
19:19:40 <AnMaster> autoconf-2.61 is what I got locally
19:19:51 <ehird> ais523: because shlels often get that wrong
19:19:52 <ais523> ehird: I just downloaded it from your server a second time, untarred, cd and config.sh, and it worked
19:20:03 <ehird> sdfsddfgdfghfh
19:20:03 <AnMaster> ./config.sh --prefix=$HOME/local/ick works yes
19:20:07 <AnMaster> ehird, ^
19:20:15 <ehird> maybe it's just be
19:20:21 <ehird> GNU bash, version 3.2.25(1)-release (i486-pc-linux-gnu)
19:20:24 <ais523> ehird: are you sure you were using bash? The default /bin/sh on Ubuntu is dash
19:20:31 <AnMaster> GNU bash, version 3.2.17(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
19:20:38 <AnMaster> ehird, ah yes that may be it
19:20:40 <ehird> ais523: ahh
19:20:44 <AnMaster> another ubuntu mess up
19:20:45 <ais523> Try bash ./config.sh
19:20:47 <AnMaster> ubuntu is crap indeed
19:20:48 <ehird> manually change config.sh
19:20:53 <ehird> to /usr/bin/env bash
19:20:59 <ehird> that's my suggestion
19:21:00 <ais523> I set it to bash wonce I discovered dash was buggy
19:21:01 <ehird> (for the next release)
19:21:12 <ehird> AnMaster: ehm, depending on bash and saying '/bin/sh' is what is crap
19:21:15 <ais523> s/w//
19:21:21 <ais523> ehird: I don't depend on bash
19:21:24 <AnMaster> ais523, file a bug for ubuntu or autoconf then?
19:21:26 <ais523> it works on other shells too
19:21:27 <ehird> ais523: ok, just non-dash
19:21:28 <ehird> ?
19:21:36 <ehird> add a check at the start
19:21:37 <ais523> I know dash is buggy, but am not sure how
19:21:45 <ehird> ais523: shouldn't be hard
19:21:47 <AnMaster> ais523, file a bug against ubuntu!
19:21:49 <ehird> check $SHELL for 'dash'
19:21:52 <ais523> it went and added -e on lots of lines at random when I used it for a makefile elsewhere
19:22:00 <ehird> and say 'please use a non-dash shell' and exit if it is
19:22:03 <ais523> and I haven't pinned down the bug
19:22:07 <AnMaster> ais523,
19:22:08 <AnMaster> $ make install
19:22:08 <AnMaster> cp bin/ick bin/convickt /home/arvid/local/ick/bin
19:22:08 <AnMaster> cp: target `/home/arvid/local/ick/bin' is not a directory
19:22:08 <AnMaster> make: *** [install-common] Error 1
19:22:12 <AnMaster> mkdir first....
19:22:25 <ehird> ais523: '-DICK_HAVE_' is that.. intentional? :p
19:22:30 <ais523> ehird: yes
19:22:37 <ais523> not the -DICK, sorry
19:22:42 <ehird> :p
19:22:44 <ais523> I thought you were asking if I wrote that line in the first place
19:22:45 <ehird> software naming
19:22:46 <ehird> what fun
19:22:49 <AnMaster> ais523, well your make install is broken
19:22:57 <ehird> liboser.so
19:22:58 <ehird> -loser
19:23:01 <ehird> liburk.so -lurk
19:23:07 <ais523> AnMaster: it expects the --prefix to be layed out like a typical /usr
19:23:15 <ais523> so it needs to have a /bin, /share subdir, etc
19:23:18 <ehird> gnu's libiberty is -liberty
19:23:23 <AnMaster> ais523, all other software seem to be able to create those if missing
19:23:23 <olsner> how about a libick that requires ICK to be defined :P
19:23:29 <AnMaster> ais523, so I'd suggest it is a bug
19:23:33 <ais523> AnMaster: I wasn't aware that people did that elsewhere
19:23:39 <ais523> so I agree that it's a bug
19:23:39 <ehird> olsner: -lick
19:23:42 <AnMaster> ais523, well automake does iirc
19:23:44 <ais523> a simple mkdir -p should sort it
19:23:46 <olsner> ehird: -DICK
19:23:48 <AnMaster> and cmake does and so on
19:23:57 <AnMaster> ais523, except -p may not work on really old systems iircv
19:23:58 <ehird> olsner: well, yeah
19:23:59 <AnMaster> iirc*
19:24:03 <ehird> olsner: but ick is the intercal compiler
19:24:05 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but I use it anyway
19:24:07 <ehird> and it already defines stuff starting with ICK
19:24:11 <ehird> so that joke is already done :)
19:24:18 <ehird> -DICKDATADIR etc
19:24:24 <ais523> I use ICK_ and ick_ as name-mangling prefixes for all externally-visible symbols in this version
19:24:26 <olsner> beh
19:24:33 <AnMaster> sh -c "(test -f /home/arvid/local/ick/info/ick.info.gz && install-info --quiet --dir-file=/usr/share/info/dir /home/arvid/local/ick/info/ick.info.gz) || true"
19:24:34 <AnMaster> /usr/share/info/dir: Permission denied
19:24:37 <AnMaster> ais523, another one
19:24:48 <ehird> AnMaster: uhh
19:24:49 <ehird> you need to sudo
19:24:51 <AnMaster> you don't use --prefix at all?
19:24:55 <ehird> or using sh
19:24:56 <ais523> ah, a --prefix bug
19:24:57 <ehird> oh
19:24:58 <ehird> i see
19:24:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm installing in my home dir using --prefix
19:24:59 <ehird> yeah
19:25:00 <AnMaster> ...
19:25:00 <ehird> that's a bug
19:25:07 <ehird> ais523: I'm happy to host 1.28 :p
19:25:20 <ais523> that bug was in 0.27, anyway
19:25:28 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and tell me wtf is this meant for:
19:25:29 <AnMaster> sh -c ": -q"
19:25:30 <ais523> it's just nobody caught it before
19:25:38 <ais523> AnMaster: it does nothing
19:25:42 <AnMaster> ais523, why?
19:25:45 <ehird> it's a nice smiley
19:25:46 <ais523> it would have updated the man database on a system that needed it
19:25:53 <AnMaster> oh I see
19:25:59 <ais523> but autoconf noticed that youre system didn't need that, and commented out the line
19:26:05 <ais523> s/youre/you're/
19:26:10 <AnMaster> ah yes
19:26:12 <ais523> well, coloned it out
19:26:35 <ehird> unlambda.i is weird
19:26:41 <AnMaster> ais523, what is convickt for?
19:26:53 <ais523> AnMaster: converting INTERCAL files between different character sets and syntaxes
19:27:03 <ais523> because some operators are written differently in different versions
19:27:04 <AnMaster> ah
19:27:05 <AnMaster> I see
19:27:08 <AnMaster> also:
19:27:10 <AnMaster> -b :reduce the probability of IE774 to zero
19:27:11 <AnMaster> eh?
19:27:21 <ais523> that's a typo, it should say E774
19:27:22 <ehird> convickt.c -- translate between various INTERCAL formats
19:27:28 <ais523> there's a random bug in the compiler
19:27:35 <ehird> AnMaster: intercal specifies a random bug in the compiler
19:27:42 <AnMaster> I see...
19:27:47 <ehird> by N probability, the E774 will be trigggered
19:27:47 <AnMaster> and what is that random bug?
19:27:55 <ehird> AnMaster: random bug = E774 is triggered
19:27:59 <AnMaster> I see
19:28:04 <ehird> so basicall ify ou don't use -b it might randomly fail to compile
19:28:06 <ehird> with E774
19:28:08 <ehird> which is the random bug error
19:28:13 <ais523> ehird: not fail to compile, E774 is runtime
19:28:26 <ehird> ah, yes
19:28:30 <AnMaster> $ bin/ick -b pit/continuation.i
19:28:36 <AnMaster> ais523, you wrote the code, explain
19:28:43 <ais523> you need to give -am as command-line options
19:28:50 <ehird> i get
19:28:51 <ehird> ON THE WAY TO 20
19:28:52 <ehird> which is funnier
19:29:04 <ais523> ehird: that's bad
19:29:06 <ehird> ais523: -am is not valid
19:29:08 <ehird> :\
19:29:13 <ais523> are you sure you're compiling with 0.28 and not 0.27?
19:29:21 <ais523> it would have produced E017 on that file
19:29:23 <AnMaster> ais523, god, it took over 10 seconds for ick to run on that file?!
19:29:26 <ais523> but E017 has been toned down a lot
19:29:29 <ehird> oh duh
19:29:31 <ehird> i didn't make install
19:29:32 <ehird> heh
19:29:41 <ais523> AnMaster: most of it's gcc
19:29:45 <ehird> yeah
19:29:46 <ehird> gcc is slow
19:29:50 <ehird> and the c files are huge
19:29:53 <AnMaster> ah
19:29:55 <ehird> AnMaster: try compiling with -c
19:29:57 <ehird> that'll dump the c file
19:29:59 <ehird> and you can take a look at it
19:30:03 <ehird> that should help you understand ;)
19:30:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't want to
19:30:12 <ais523> or -g, which will dump the C file but complete the compilation anyway
19:30:14 <AnMaster> ICL633I PROGRAM FELL OFF THE EDGE ?
19:30:21 <AnMaster> ie how do I use ./continuation
19:30:32 <ais523> you just use ./continuation, I thought, it's a test program
19:30:42 <AnMaster> $ ./continuation
19:30:43 <AnMaster> ON THE WAY TO THE NEW WORLD
19:30:45 <AnMaster> really?
19:30:50 <ais523> it should just output a bunch of roman numerals
19:30:55 <AnMaster> it outputs that
19:31:00 <ais523> hmm... maybe the test program was deleted by mistake
19:31:07 <ais523> what's the very last line of your continuation.i?
19:31:20 <AnMaster> DO RESUME #1
19:31:22 <ehird> ais523: its fine for me
19:31:22 <oklopol> i don't really know anything about intercal, how did you make continuations?
19:31:24 <ehird> :/
19:31:34 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
19:31:39 <ehird> oklopol: he wrote stuff that uses multithreading to do them
19:31:47 <ehird> and used his compiler's CREATE to define syntax for them
19:31:55 <oklopol> oh
19:31:58 <ais523> AnMaster: there shouldn't be an error 633 if there's a RESUME #1 as the last line
19:31:59 <oklopol> extendable syntax
19:32:09 <ehird> oklopol: he just implemented it
19:32:09 <AnMaster> ais523, well explain it then?
19:32:09 <oklopol> i really should learn it
19:32:10 <ais523> that doesn't make any sense
19:32:23 <ehird> AnMaster: uh you effed up
19:32:25 <ehird> try redownloading
19:32:27 <ehird> 'cause it works for me
19:32:34 <AnMaster> ehird, you got x86_64?
19:32:47 * AnMaster runs that platform
19:32:53 <AnMaster> no idea if that would cause an issue
19:33:13 <ehird> AnMaster: it wouldn't
19:33:17 <ehird> just try redownloading
19:33:26 <AnMaster> ehird, can I get md5sum for the tarball
19:33:27 <ais523> AnMaster: use ick -abgm continuation.i, then tell me what's on line 4489 of continuation.c
19:33:49 <AnMaster> bin/ick -abgm pit/continuation.i to correct for paths
19:33:51 <ehird> 67459c1a46e016d25de7c30968b676d7
19:33:53 <ehird> md5sum
19:33:56 <AnMaster> I assume that would not be an issue
19:34:03 <ais523> no
19:34:06 <ehird> oh, i should pubilsh .sum
19:34:08 <ehird> shouldn't i?
19:34:11 <AnMaster> $ md5sum ../ick-0-28.tgz
19:34:11 <AnMaster> 67459c1a46e016d25de7c30968b676d7 ../ick-0-28.tgz
19:34:17 <AnMaster> ehird, same here
19:34:20 <ehird> ick-0-28.sum is the filename to use right
19:34:21 <AnMaster> so not a download error
19:34:31 <ehird> AnMaster: beats me
19:34:39 <AnMaster> ais523, what line did you say?
19:34:42 <ais523> 4489
19:34:58 <AnMaster> ick_skipto = ick_resume(0x1); goto top;
19:35:00 <ehird> should i publish an md5sum?
19:35:07 <ais523> OK, that's correct
19:35:25 <AnMaster> ais523, want md5sum for the c file?
19:35:36 <ais523> no, I've just had another idea
19:35:43 <AnMaster> oh?
19:35:54 <ehird> nobody? :p
19:36:00 <ais523> maybe the kill-all-threads code is being invoked early and turning off the RESUME
19:36:07 <ais523> ehird: I thought it was .md5, but am not sure
19:36:22 <ais523> normally the md5 sums are in the release message, not in the directory itself
19:36:27 <ehird> ais523: ick-0-28.md5
19:36:29 <ehird> 67459c1a46e016d25de7c30968b676d7 ick-0-28.tgz
19:36:30 <AnMaster> .md5 is the usual
19:36:33 <ehird> and i think lots of mirrors include it
19:36:44 <AnMaster> I think
19:36:51 <ais523> yes, it's worthwhile having it in the same directory as that's where people will check
19:36:53 <ehird> AnMaster: so 'ick-0-28.md5'?
19:36:56 <AnMaster> ais523, well I didn't understand the "<ais523> maybe the kill-all-threads code is being invoked early and turning off the RESUME"
19:36:58 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure
19:37:22 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm trying to figure out how the hell that code managed to error out with 663 when it had a RESUME as the last line
19:37:37 <ais523> the only thing I can think of is that the RESUME got ABSTAINed from by mistake
19:37:45 <AnMaster> ehird, gentoo use .DIGESTS
19:37:46 <ais523> AnMaster: compile with -abgmw
19:37:50 <AnMaster> http://ftp.ing.umu.se/linux/gentoo/releases/amd64/current/stages/stage1-amd64-2007.0.tar.bz2.DIGESTS
19:37:52 <AnMaster> as in that
19:38:11 <AnMaster> ais523, and then?
19:38:20 <ais523> then run the code with +printflow (as in ./continuation +printflow), capture stdout, and paste it somewhere
19:38:28 <ais523> I'll compare it to what I get over here
19:38:41 <ehird> ais523: http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/ick-0-28.md5
19:38:47 <ehird> feel free to post that url somewhere
19:38:49 <ehird> if you want
19:39:01 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/uc3S5q93.html
19:39:02 <ais523> ehird: it's pretty obvious, I think just having it in the same directory will be enough
19:39:06 <ehird> okay
19:39:10 <ehird> should I do CURRENT-doc?
19:39:13 <ehird> and CURRENT.md5
19:39:23 <ehird> i guess the advantage of version directories
19:39:27 <ehird> is that i could just have one CURRENT
19:39:28 <ehird> to the directory
19:39:31 <AnMaster> ehird, hm http://ftp.ing.umu.se/linux/gentoo/releases/amd64/current/stages/stage1-amd64-2007.0.tar.bz2.DIGESTS
19:39:32 <ehird> and then collect all of these inside it
19:40:22 <AnMaster> ais523, any idea?
19:40:35 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm comparing the files at the moment
19:41:01 <AnMaster> ais523, what gcc options do you use?
19:41:03 <ehird> ais523: however i won't switch to a different format until several releases forward
19:41:08 <ehird> and even then i'll maintain redirects
19:41:11 <AnMaster> because I tried to compile the c file by hand
19:41:12 <ehird> for backwards compatibility
19:41:14 <AnMaster> it didn't work
19:41:21 <ais523> AnMaster: a bunch of -D and -I, -o and -O2
19:41:23 <ehird> AnMaster: he links with his cmpiler
19:41:30 <AnMaster> ok forget it then
19:41:40 <ais523> AnMaster: the very top of the C file gives the compile command you need to use
19:41:40 <AnMaster> ais523, was thinking of testing -m32
19:41:52 <ais523> oh, and -l as well
19:41:59 <ais523> because it links against the INTERCAL runtime library
19:42:03 <AnMaster> ah then it won't work
19:42:10 <AnMaster> can't link 32-bit and 64-bit objects
19:42:49 <ehird> AnMaster: compile ick with -m32
19:42:56 <AnMaster> ehird, too much work
19:43:05 <AnMaster> $ echo $CFLAGS
19:43:05 <AnMaster> -pipe -march=k8 -O2 -msse3
19:43:06 <AnMaster> btw
19:43:07 <AnMaster> sane ones
19:43:14 <ehird> oh
19:43:16 <ehird> undo that
19:43:18 <ehird> while compiling ick
19:43:20 <AnMaster> undo what?
19:43:21 <ehird> actualy
19:43:24 <ehird> $CFLAGS is a dumb idea
19:43:28 <AnMaster> not really
19:43:30 <ehird> projects require wildly different stuff
19:43:37 <ehird> setting it is making far too many assumptions
19:43:45 <ehird> i suggest trying CFLAGS='' make clean all
19:44:06 <AnMaster> ehird, it still uses those btw
19:45:42 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm pretty confused at this point
19:46:01 <ais523> the two programs ran exactly the same, until your program just errored out with E663 at random
19:46:12 <ais523> despite the two programs doing the same thing up to that point
19:46:28 <ais523> the only thing that stands out about that point was that it was the first place where I access a function pointer
19:46:49 * ais523 checks something
19:46:56 <AnMaster> ais523, want me to pastebin the C file?
19:47:10 <ehird> ahh wait, ais523
19:47:11 <ais523> AnMaster: no, I'm pretty sure it's identical to mine
19:47:16 <ehird> AnMaster uses stack protection and stuff
19:47:22 <ehird> maybe the function pointer was on the stack or.. i don't know
19:47:23 <AnMaster> yes
19:47:26 <AnMaster> I got a hardened system
19:47:30 <AnMaster> using PaX and so on
19:47:45 <ais523> ehird: a function pointer on the stack should still work, though
19:47:52 <AnMaster> as for function pointer on stack it would still work
19:47:56 <ais523> but I'm wondering if the function's prototype was accidentally wrong
19:48:06 <AnMaster> ais523, so want the c file?
19:48:07 <ehird> which is to say: AnMaster prefers the silly comfort of non-executable stack in favour of programs that work
19:48:21 <AnMaster> ehird, very few programs fail
19:48:29 <ais523> AnMaster: just tell me its md5 sum, and I'll compare it to the one I have over here
19:48:49 <AnMaster> ais523, the first line will differ as it contains "-I/home/arvid/local/ick/include/ick-0.28"
19:48:55 <AnMaster> so I can't see how that would work
19:48:59 <ehird> AnMaster: remove the first line
19:49:00 <ais523> oh, of course
19:49:05 <ehird> might help
19:49:17 <ais523> given that the lines far down the file were the same, I suspect the compiler produced the same output
19:49:29 <AnMaster> so I remove the first line?
19:49:44 <AnMaster> with first line removed: 43410b9d29f3e79ce17b80ff1dc972a1
19:50:42 <ais523> it differs, pasting the .c file may be useful
19:50:56 <ais523> AnMaster: what is sizeof(int) on x86_64?
19:50:58 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/1q4ZNK43.html
19:51:01 <AnMaster> ais523, it is 4
19:51:07 <AnMaster> long and long long are both 8
19:51:16 <AnMaster> size_t and void* are also 8
19:51:19 <ais523> OK, so that isn't the problem
19:51:34 <ais523> I just noticed a typedef unsigned int ick_type32; that someone else had written
19:51:36 <AnMaster> ais523, see the paste
19:51:40 <ehird> debugging intercal compilers is so exciting
19:51:43 <AnMaster> ais523, use int32_t
19:51:49 <AnMaster> ehird, hahahr
19:51:53 <ehird> woah
19:51:54 <ehird> googlebot
19:51:55 <ehird> on my site?
19:51:57 <ehird> :O
19:52:01 <ehird> thanx google groups
19:52:04 <ehird> but i don't have content yet
19:52:09 <ehird> i really should have put my site up before ;)
19:52:20 <ais523> AnMaster: I know why it was different, the second line has the directory name of the file in
19:52:23 <ehird> hahah wow
19:52:26 <ehird> it's going to my dead links
19:52:29 <ais523> as does the last one
19:52:35 <AnMaster> ais523, ah ok
19:52:39 <AnMaster> ais523, otherwise the same?
19:52:44 <AnMaster> I did run from top directory yes
19:52:50 <ais523> AnMaster: I think so
19:53:03 <ais523> there are other things that differ to, as it uses randomish numbers for the names of function pointers
19:53:03 <AnMaster> ais523, otherwise no differences?
19:53:13 <AnMaster> ah
19:53:43 <ehird> ais523: non-deterministic compiler output
19:53:44 <ehird> I love you
19:53:45 <ehird> :D
19:54:05 <ais523> ehird: the numbers are actually pointers returned from malloc and written as hex
19:54:16 <AnMaster> ew
19:54:19 <AnMaster> ewwwwwwww
19:54:20 <ais523> I could explain why if you wanted
19:54:43 <ehird> brilliant
19:54:46 <AnMaster> ais523, want the binary then?
19:54:48 <ehird> AnMaster: why say 'ew' it's INTERCAL
19:54:49 <ehird> jez
19:54:51 <ehird> *jeez
19:54:55 <ais523> AnMaster: I couldn't run it over here
19:54:58 <ais523> I'm only on x86
19:55:04 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and those pointer names?
19:55:14 <AnMaster> are they cast to 32-bit?
19:55:22 <AnMaster> because they look a bit short for being 64-bit ones
19:55:28 <ais523> they're cast to unsigned long IIRC
19:55:38 <AnMaster> ais523, size_t is the correct one
19:55:56 <ais523> actually, intptr_t is the correct one, but it's C99
19:55:58 <olsner> [u]intptr_t
19:56:10 <AnMaster> hm
19:56:18 <ais523> and most compilers don't have a printf size specifier for it
19:56:19 <AnMaster> yeah indeed
19:56:28 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm quite certain gcc does
19:56:35 <AnMaster> ick_lose(IE000, 121, "PLEASE NOTE This double assignment is actually correct,\n\
19:56:35 <AnMaster> because :1602 is overloaded.");
19:56:36 <AnMaster> huh
19:56:44 <ais523> but pointer values tend to be 'small' for user programs on x86_64
19:56:46 <AnMaster> why is a comment in the generated file?
19:56:57 <ais523> AnMaster: in case it was execute
19:57:01 <ais523> s/execute/executed/
19:57:05 <AnMaster> *blink*
19:57:08 <ais523> there are no 'comments' in INTERCAL
19:57:16 <ais523> but syntax errors happen at runtime, as E000
19:57:17 <ehird> just invalid statements
19:57:20 <ehird> that you make sure not to be executed
19:57:21 <ehird> :)
19:57:28 <AnMaster> god
19:57:36 <ais523> so you write PLEASE NOT at the start and then they are ignored by default
19:57:41 <ehird> AnMaster: it's INTERCAL, are you expecting it to be an elegant amazing language?
19:57:49 <ais523> if you write PLEASE REINSTATE COMMENTS then your program will crash the next time it reaches a comment
19:58:01 <AnMaster> no. I'm just amazed it is so silly
19:58:23 <ais523> I thought you were complaining about what I put in the comment, which is also somewhat silly
19:58:26 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and why pit and not examples
19:58:29 <olsner> intercal is elegant for very small values of elegance
19:58:44 <ais523> AnMaster: not entirely sure, that predates me by years
19:59:26 <AnMaster> hm
19:59:29 <olsner> hmm, so PLEASE NOTE in the "comment" is actually PLEASE NOT followed by an E?
19:59:33 <ais523> olsner: yes
19:59:34 <AnMaster> ais523, ok so got any idea what happened?
19:59:36 <ais523> it's idiomatic
19:59:41 <ais523> AnMaster: not yet
20:00:30 <olsner> actually, that *is* kind of elegant
20:02:36 <ais523> AnMaster: what's confusing me now is that for a PROGRAM FELL OFF THE EDGE is basically impossible to get when you're using the standard library (as continuation.i does), because it's appended to the program
20:02:45 <ais523> and E663 is caused by falling off the end of the program
20:03:01 <AnMaster> ais523, no clue then
20:03:04 <ais523> falling off the program when the standard library is there gives you E000 PLEASE KNOCK BEFORE ENTERING intstead
20:03:11 <AnMaster> ais523, beer.i example work
20:04:02 <AnMaster> life2.i works
20:04:12 <ais523> AnMaster: comment out line 33 of continuation.i by changing CREATE to DON'T CREATE
20:04:13 <AnMaster> life.i is just odd not sure if it works
20:04:15 <ais523> what happens then?
20:04:54 <AnMaster> ON THE WAY TO 1
20:04:55 <AnMaster> ??+
20:04:55 <AnMaster> ????
20:04:59 <AnMaster> did not compile
20:05:02 <ais523> AnMaster: that means you wrote the wrong filename
20:05:06 <AnMaster> ah thank you
20:05:10 <ais523> that's 'Cannot read input file' in INTERCAL-speak
20:05:17 <AnMaster> I see
20:05:26 <AnMaster> ais523, is there a wimp mode for errors?
20:05:27 <Deewiant> you must resubnit
20:05:38 <ais523> AnMaster: no, but they're explained in plain language in the documentation
20:05:45 <ais523> Deewiant: that typo's been preserved since 1972
20:05:50 <AnMaster> ais523, still ICL633I PROGRAM FELL OFF THE EDGE
20:05:53 <Deewiant> ais523: yes, I know :-)
20:06:09 <AnMaster> ais523, assuming it did compile as well as create the C file?
20:06:17 <AnMaster> when doing:
20:06:18 <AnMaster> ../bin/ick -abgmw continuation.i
20:06:19 <AnMaster> ?
20:06:22 <ais523> AnMaster: yews
20:06:51 <AnMaster> ais523, it did it seems
20:06:51 <ais523> AnMaster: what happens when you delete lines 256 to 268 inclusive, and then try running again?
20:07:18 <AnMaster> PLEASE DO REINSTATE (8205) AGAIN
20:07:18 <AnMaster> to
20:07:19 <AnMaster> PLEASE GIVE UP
20:07:20 <AnMaster> ?
20:07:27 <ais523> yes
20:07:46 <AnMaster> same error
20:07:50 <ais523> ???
20:07:51 <AnMaster> but compiled WAY faster
20:08:16 <AnMaster> ais523, unless ick decided to not overwrite file if it existed?
20:08:24 <ais523> AnMaster: it does overwrite existing files
20:08:29 <AnMaster> good
20:08:34 <AnMaster> can't be sure with intercal
20:08:37 <ais523> you could delete the executable and .c and try again to check if that's the problem
20:09:03 <AnMaster> no indeed not the issue
20:09:43 <ais523> do you have gdb?
20:09:54 <AnMaster> of course I do
20:10:01 <ais523> try looking at the C file for the line where that error happens
20:10:11 <ais523> (search for the string IE663)
20:10:22 <ais523> then putting a breakpoint on it in gdb
20:10:35 <ais523> (the -g option makes the output debuggable, for certain values of 'debuggable')
20:10:40 <AnMaster> string "IE663" not found?
20:10:56 <ais523> it should be near the bottom of main()
20:11:02 <ais523> oh, and no quotes
20:11:08 <ais523> it's a #defined constant
20:11:22 <AnMaster> I didn't have quotes
20:11:30 <AnMaster> kate had in "not found" message
20:11:34 <ehird> ais523: he's deleted the lines
20:11:35 <ehird> remember?
20:11:38 <AnMaster> and no it isn't in main()
20:11:44 <ais523> ehird: that wasn't in the deleted lines
20:12:00 <ais523> AnMaster: what's the last occurence of ick_lose
20:12:09 <ehird> - - [01/Apr/2008:19:06:01 +0000] "GET /mirror/c-intercal/ick-0.28/ HTTP/1.0" 200 50000 "http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.intercal/browse_thread/thread/9e9ad7d6875e9582/d930aa96e48e2f11" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET "
20:12:12 <ehird> a real person
20:12:18 <ehird> unfortunately their software sucks
20:12:19 <ehird> but \o/
20:12:24 <ais523> IE6?
20:12:25 <AnMaster> ais523, in ick_os687760
20:12:27 <ais523> not me, then
20:12:29 <AnMaster> ick_lose(IE277, ick_lineno, (char*) NULL);
20:12:33 <AnMaster> that is the last in the file
20:12:35 <ais523> AnMaster: what's the last occurence inside main?
20:12:49 <ais523> I forgot about the errors about assigning to constants when I asked that
20:12:58 <AnMaster> ais523, there are none?
20:13:15 <ais523> and yet you're still getting error 663 when you run?
20:13:17 <AnMaster> or do you mean ick_main ?
20:13:23 <AnMaster> instead of main()?
20:13:32 <ais523> is there an ick_main?
20:13:38 <AnMaster> ICK_EC_FUNC_START(ick_main)
20:13:41 <AnMaster> is there at least
20:13:45 <ais523> AnMaster: that's #ifdeffed out
20:13:54 <ais523> that's why I forgot about it
20:14:00 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe, kate fails at the complexities of that file
20:14:23 <ais523> OK, inside what appears to be ick_main due to kate not understanding #ifdef
20:14:48 <AnMaster> ais523, it does handle #ifdef
20:14:55 <AnMaster> just not that complex huge C file you got
20:15:13 <ais523> if you paste your new version, I'll take a look and tell you which line I'm talking about
20:15:27 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/9rIGxf57.html
20:15:34 <AnMaster> yeah I can't see where your ick_main ends
20:15:52 <ais523> line 3824
20:15:57 <ais523> sorry about the indentation
20:16:13 <ais523> (that's the line to put a breakpoint on)
20:16:14 <AnMaster> you said IE663 not IE633
20:16:17 <AnMaster> <ais523> (search for the string IE663)
20:16:22 <ais523> ah
20:16:37 <ais523> I must have remembered it incorrectly
20:16:50 <AnMaster> Breakpoint 1, main (argc=<value optimized out>, argv=0x401fb0) at continuation.c:3824
20:16:50 <AnMaster> 3824 ick_lose(IE633, 575, (char *)0);
20:16:54 <AnMaster> right?
20:16:57 <AnMaster> now what?
20:17:05 <ais523> what does a backtrace say?
20:17:13 <AnMaster> (gdb) bt
20:17:13 <AnMaster> #0 main (argc=<value optimized out>, argv=0x401fb0) at continuation.c:3824
20:17:19 <ais523> and what's the value of the ick_next array?
20:17:20 <AnMaster> as it is in main, what else *could* it say?
20:17:25 <ais523> AnMaster: you'd be surprised
20:17:31 <AnMaster> (gdb) print ick_next
20:17:32 <AnMaster> $1 = (unsigned int *) 0x630320
20:17:38 <AnMaster> (gdb) print *ick_next
20:17:38 <AnMaster> $2 = 166
20:17:43 <ais523> seems reasonable
20:17:57 <ais523> the abstain status of the line before will be useful
20:17:58 <AnMaster> what next?
20:18:06 <AnMaster> ais523, how do I get that ...
20:18:07 <ais523> wait a moment while I figure out what variable it is
20:18:22 <AnMaster> you know, why not write a intercal debugger?
20:18:32 <ais523> ick_abstained[464]
20:18:39 <ais523> AnMaster: I did, but it can't handle the continuations code
20:18:48 <AnMaster> (gdb) print ick_abstained[464]
20:18:48 <AnMaster> $3 = 0
20:18:52 <ais523> in much the same way that gdb can't handle longjmp
20:19:05 <AnMaster> and longjmp *is* evil
20:19:24 <ais523> I know, that's why I use it
20:19:29 <AnMaster> -_-
20:19:56 <ais523> OK, so the issue is that the if immediately above where you are ran
20:19:59 <ais523> and ends with a goto
20:20:07 <ais523> so there's no way that control could have reached that line
20:20:19 <AnMaster> um
20:20:22 <ais523> what's ick_lineno, by the way?
20:20:31 <AnMaster> 52
20:20:56 <AnMaster> also telling me what the issue is won't help, 1) I do know C, but not this autogenerated *MESS* 2) I don't know intercal
20:21:15 <AnMaster> I will be happy to run commands as long as they aren't along the lines of rm -rf /
20:21:48 <ais523> you know enough C to see that switch(...){... if(1){... goto x} /* no labels here */} /*error*/ shouldn't reach the error line
20:21:57 <ais523> ah, except if the switch finds no labels
20:22:08 <ais523> I forgot to put an erroring default() in there as a paranoia check
20:22:12 <ais523> what's the value of ick_skipto?
20:22:24 <AnMaster> (gdb) print ick_skipto
20:22:24 <AnMaster> $5 = 4294901750
20:22:38 <ais523> that explains what's happened
20:22:46 <AnMaster> well why didn't it fail for you then?
20:22:48 <ehird> ais523: how come only AnMaster has the problem?
20:22:49 <ais523> a negative number has been stored in an unsigned 32-bit integer
20:22:54 <ehird> 64-bit overf-
20:22:55 <ehird> ah
20:22:58 <ais523> and then assigned to a signed 64-bit integer
20:23:01 <GregorR> I wrote an implementation of MISC at least a year ago and never published it - it's still marked as unimplemented on the wiki :P
20:23:01 <AnMaster> I see
20:23:02 <ehird> ahaaaaaaa
20:23:07 <ais523> and so has ended up with the wrong value
20:23:14 <AnMaster> ais523, so you are broken on 64-bit?
20:23:15 <ehird> GregorR: JSMMIX going anywhere?
20:23:21 <AnMaster> GregorR, what is MISC?
20:23:24 <ais523> AnMaster: presumably, but only very slightly
20:23:29 <ehird> ais523: am I about to have to upload 1.28? )
20:23:30 <ehird> *;)
20:23:34 <AnMaster> ais523, hope you can make a patch soon
20:23:37 <GregorR> AnMaster: A concrete OISC design, see wiki.
20:23:38 <ais523> ehird: I'll collect some bugfixes soon
20:23:49 <GregorR> ehird: It's so slow it became insufferable.
20:23:54 <ais523> AnMaster: it'll be a one-liner for that particular bug
20:24:11 <AnMaster> ais523, ok, where should I change a line?
20:24:21 <ais523> I'm trying to find it at the moment
20:24:55 <ais523> line 89 of ick-wrap.c
20:25:00 <ais523> cast ick_skipto to (int)
20:25:27 <AnMaster> $ find . -iname ick-wrap.c
20:25:27 <AnMaster> ./lib/ick-wrap.c
20:25:27 <AnMaster> ./src/ick-wrap.c
20:25:29 <AnMaster> which one?
20:25:34 <ais523> the one in src
20:25:39 <ais523> the one in lib is a temporary copy
20:25:45 <ais523> which will be copied over by the makefile
20:25:53 <ehird> GregorR: :(
20:26:16 <ais523> GregorR: which instruction does it use?
20:26:26 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and consider running astyle or some such tool to clean up your indention
20:26:34 <ais523> AnMaster: I have considered it
20:26:38 <AnMaster> {
20:26:39 <AnMaster> case 0:
20:26:39 <AnMaster> $G
20:26:39 <AnMaster> <tab>}
20:26:41 <AnMaster> the rest are spaces
20:26:48 <AnMaster> that is just fuubared
20:27:01 <AnMaster> also wtf "$G"?
20:27:02 <ehird> I love how AnMaster always complains about style in possibl ythe most hacky, ugly language in existance
20:27:03 <ais523> AnMaster: the generated code is mostly inside strings in feh2.c
20:27:06 <ais523> making it hard to indent
20:27:09 <ehird> 'Your *C* contains *tabs*!'
20:27:19 <ehird> AnMaster: its the SKELETON... $G is a placeholder
20:27:22 <ais523> and that code is C plus placeholders for 'compiler generate things here'
20:27:26 <AnMaster> ehird, either tabs or spaces
20:27:29 <AnMaster> but not a MIX
20:27:36 <ais523> ehird: it isn't particularly consistent
20:27:37 <AnMaster> I use pure tabs for indention myself
20:27:38 <ehird> AnMaster: boo hoo
20:27:46 <ais523> I'll have to try to get the newlines fixed, first
20:27:53 <AnMaster> ais523, I got a script for such
20:27:58 <ais523> only once I've done that will the start-of-line indentation work better
20:28:00 <ehird> i don't see a problem really.
20:28:05 <ais523> and yes, I know I could just run the output through indent
20:28:16 <AnMaster> ais523, can't really pastebin it as it contains a literal CR to be able to remove them
20:28:18 <ais523> but as it's only an intermediate file I don't see what the point is
20:28:24 <AnMaster> I'll upload it somewhere
20:28:28 <AnMaster> ais523, it uses ed
20:28:48 <ais523> if I'm going to regularise .c output, I'll write my own program
20:28:57 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and still that error
20:28:58 <ais523> because things like {;} aren't particularly useful in real life
20:29:01 <AnMaster> did a make clean all
20:29:13 <ais523> AnMaster: what's the value of ick_skipto this time?
20:29:21 <AnMaster> a sec
20:29:31 <AnMaster> ais523, I restored original file
20:29:36 <AnMaster> so where should I break then?
20:29:49 <ais523> on the E633 line
20:30:08 <AnMaster> odd still 4498
20:30:28 <AnMaster> $1 = 4294901748
20:30:29 <AnMaster> still that
20:30:44 * AnMaster tries rebuilding again
20:30:58 <ais523> AnMaster: but that seems reasonable based on what the patch does
20:30:59 <AnMaster> maybe I didn't make install
20:31:03 <ais523> what's (int)ick_skipto?
20:31:15 <AnMaster> oh yes I forgot make install
20:31:17 <AnMaster> that's all
20:31:23 <ais523> working now?
20:31:27 <AnMaster> ais523, assume so
20:31:28 <AnMaster> not sure
20:31:31 <AnMaster> I
20:31:32 <AnMaster> III
20:31:32 <AnMaster> II
20:31:34 <AnMaster> is how it looks
20:31:38 <ais523> yes, that's right
20:31:39 <AnMaster> with blank lines in between
20:31:43 <ehird> so
20:31:45 <ehird> what was the problem?
20:31:49 <AnMaster> ais523, ok what does it *mean*
20:31:52 <ehird> sj
20:31:54 <ais523> AnMaster: that's to give space for the overbars if they're needed
20:31:54 <ehird> i see
20:31:55 <ehird> *ah
20:31:59 <ais523> AnMaster: it's just a simple test program
20:32:10 <AnMaster> overbars?
20:32:11 <ais523> the numbers are trace output so you can see it working
20:32:12 <AnMaster> ???????????????
20:32:17 <ais523> AnMaster: for roman numerals over 1000
20:32:28 <AnMaster> hm you just do MMM then?
20:32:30 <AnMaster> iirc?
20:32:31 <ais523> e.g. 5000 is V with a bar over it
20:32:33 <ehird> AnMaster: intercals standard output is in roman numerals
20:32:58 <AnMaster> ais523, sure that is the format used by Romans?
20:33:03 <ais523> AnMaster: it isn't
20:33:14 <ais523> INTERCAL uses lowercase for numerals like v which means 5000000
20:33:16 <AnMaster> also why does pow not do ANYTHING?
20:33:21 <ais523> it's known as 'butchered roman numerals'
20:33:30 <ais523> AnMaster: which pow?
20:33:35 <AnMaster> pow.i
20:33:37 <AnMaster> from pit
20:33:45 <AnMaster> is there any other?
20:34:00 <ais523> I assumed you meant the C function, and was confused
20:34:03 <AnMaster> or am I supposed to enter something? if yes, what?
20:34:24 <ais523> a numer
20:34:27 <ais523> s/numer/number/
20:34:29 <ehird> AnMaster: note
20:34:31 <ehird> you must enter it in digits
20:34:31 <ais523> spell it out as digits
20:34:32 <ehird> like this
20:34:36 <ais523> e.g. for 123, type ONE TWO THREE
20:34:37 <ehird> THREE FOUR ZERO ZERO TWO
20:34:39 <ehird> heh
20:34:43 <ehird> (34002)
20:34:45 <AnMaster> so ONE NINE?
20:34:48 <ais523> yes
20:34:48 <AnMaster> or NINER?
20:34:56 <AnMaster> considering what befunge call 9
20:35:03 <AnMaster> ais523, yes to which?
20:35:10 <GregorR> ais523: It's subtract-and-branch-if-negative
20:35:10 <ais523> AnMaster: either
20:35:14 <AnMaster> ais523, I see
20:35:21 <AnMaster> ais523, err
20:35:22 <GregorR> ehird: I will gladly hand you the reigns if you want to continue work on JSMMIX :P
20:35:23 <AnMaster> ON THE WAY TO 66
20:35:28 <ehird> GregorR: aieeee
20:35:29 <ais523> AnMaster: try a smaller number, then
20:35:29 <AnMaster> ais523, after entering ONE TWO
20:35:33 <AnMaster> so 12
20:35:35 <AnMaster> not large
20:35:46 <ais523> yes, but I'm not entirely sure what that program does
20:35:49 <AnMaster> ais523, it just runs on and on?
20:36:12 <ais523> well, it'll take me a few hours to figure out what it does from the source
20:36:17 <AnMaster> ais523, ??????????
20:36:19 <ais523> I didn't write all or even most of the programs there
20:36:28 <ais523> AnMaster: which program?
20:36:30 <AnMaster> $ ../bin/ick -b flonck.i
20:36:31 <AnMaster> that
20:36:42 <ais523> it needs lib/floatlib.i appended to it
20:37:00 <AnMaster> same error
20:37:02 <ais523> it says that in its docs, presumably assuming that people will read them
20:37:04 <AnMaster> $ ../bin/ick -b flonck.i lib/floatlib.i
20:37:14 <ehird> you need to append it
20:37:14 <ais523> AnMaster: that's not appending floatlib.i to it
20:37:17 <ehird> yourself
20:37:18 <ehird> manually
20:37:19 <AnMaster> oh
20:37:19 <ais523> that's compiling both files
20:37:45 <AnMaster> ais523, add a -combine like gcc got?
20:37:52 <ehird> (unlambda)
20:37:57 <ais523> AnMaster: it's certainly a thought
20:37:58 <ehird> AnMaster: it's meant to be awkward
20:38:04 <ehird> but maybe ok
20:38:05 <ehird> as a wimpmode
20:38:13 <AnMaster> $ cat flonck.i lib/floatlib.i > stupid.intercal.i
20:38:14 <AnMaster> $ ../bin/ick -b stupid.intercal.i
20:38:16 <AnMaster> worked :)
20:38:20 <ais523> ehird: what line was that ON THE LINE TO?
20:38:32 <ais523> s/LINE/WAY/
20:38:52 <ais523> AnMaster: I strongly advise you to read the docs for flonck and floatlib, or you won't be able to figure out how the hell to use it
20:38:58 <ehird> ais523: 324
20:39:03 <AnMaster> ais523, I am reading the docs
20:39:09 <AnMaster> and well I'm deciding to NOT use it
20:39:33 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:39:34 <AnMaster> ais523, just one thing, if you add a befunge bridge, be sure to not make the messages from befunge silly ;)
20:39:34 <ais523> ehird: I patched my version of unlambda.i because it had an error on line 323
20:39:44 <ais523> (4402) DO RESUME '?'"?!101~#128'$!101~.101'"~#65535'$#2'~#3
20:39:46 <ais523> is the correct lien
20:39:49 <ais523> s/lien/line/
20:40:00 <ehird> ais523: maybe include that in the next release?
20:40:02 <ais523> I thought I'd put the corrected version in the pit, though
20:40:05 <ais523> ehird: yes
20:40:52 <ais523> (oerjan didn't notice the error earlier because it was hidden by a bug in C-INTERCAL itself; when I corrected the C-INTERCAL bug, I had fix to unlambda.i which was relying on it)
20:41:37 <ais523> ehird: does it work now?
20:42:01 <ehird> ais523: gonna try
20:42:05 <ehird> hmm
20:42:09 <ehird> i want an editor that lets me:
20:42:25 <ehird> $ eddy -l323
20:42:28 <ehird> (4402) DO RESUME '?'"?!101~#128'$!101~.101'"~#65535'$#2'~#3
20:42:29 <ehird> ^D
20:42:31 <ehird> err
20:42:32 <ehird> make that
20:42:36 <AnMaster> ais523, you know all intercall errors in your head?
20:42:37 <ehird> eddy -l323 unlambda.i
20:42:38 <ehird> but yeah
20:42:42 <ehird> something that lets me do quick edits like that
20:42:46 <ehird> given precise information
20:42:48 <ais523> AnMaster: not the numbers, but I do know the word descriptions
20:42:54 <AnMaster> ais523, ah
20:43:01 <ais523> most of them are related to the error in some way
20:43:14 <AnMaster> ais523, "configdj.sh"?
20:43:17 <ais523> things like "IT CAME FROM BEYOND SPACE", for instance, are reasonably obvious
20:43:22 <ais523> AnMaster: for configuring it for DOS
20:43:25 <AnMaster> oh
20:43:35 <AnMaster> ais523, you don't do native windows binaries?
20:43:42 <ais523> AnMaster: no, what would be the fun in that?
20:43:49 <AnMaster> err, whateer
20:43:51 <AnMaster> whatever*
20:43:53 <ais523> you have to compile it yourself, I only distribute source
20:44:07 <AnMaster> but you do dos binaries?
20:44:11 <ais523> AnMaster: no
20:44:12 <AnMaster> ah
20:44:19 <AnMaster> but why support dos today?
20:44:24 <AnMaster> who on earth will use that!?
20:44:25 <ais523> AnMaster: because I don't support Windows
20:44:26 <ehird> haha
20:44:28 <ehird> yahoo! found me
20:44:29 <ehird> :D
20:44:34 <AnMaster> ais523, err?
20:44:39 <AnMaster> you said it did work on windows?
20:44:42 <ais523> AnMaster: Windows can run DOS programs
20:44:51 <ehird> AnMaster: The same reason that the documentation's filenames are random
20:44:52 <AnMaster> ais523, not in 64-bit windows
20:44:53 <ehird> (e.g. 4589fjas.htm)
20:44:58 <ehird> to maek them 8.3
20:45:00 <ehird> for DOS
20:45:13 <ais523> I'll have to go, this place closes at 9pm
20:45:13 <ehird> That is: It's in INTERCAL's spirit to support old, dead platforms.
20:45:20 <AnMaster> ais523, this place?
20:45:21 <ehird> ais523: bye :)
20:45:24 <ais523> AnMaster: library
20:45:24 <AnMaster> ais523, cya
20:45:26 <AnMaster> ah
20:45:28 <ais523> I can move to another connection if you like
20:45:37 <ais523> should I do that, or should I just go home?
20:45:42 <AnMaster> ais523, would like that :)
20:45:49 <ehird> ais523: me too
20:45:53 -!- ais523 has quit ("moving to a different connection").
20:45:59 <ehird> whee
20:46:29 <ehird> i wish yahoo slurp and googlebot came at a time when i had stuff on
20:46:29 <AnMaster> would it be possible to have a cleanly coded intercal compiler?
20:46:29 <ehird> :|
20:46:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but that would suck.
20:46:45 <ehird> The whole point of INTERCAL is that it's, you know, fun.
20:46:50 <ehird> And the compiler's obscurity reflects it
20:47:02 <ehird> INTERCAL's weirdness isn't just the language itself. It's its culture
20:47:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I find it fun to code perfect warning free code
20:47:09 <AnMaster> but whatever
20:47:41 <AnMaster> brb phone
20:48:19 <ehird> that's because you're obsessive about clean C
20:48:22 <ehird> an oxymoron if i ever heard one ;)
20:56:05 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:56:25 <ehird> welcome back
20:56:27 <ehird> where are you now? :p
20:57:13 <ais523> common room in my department
20:57:19 <ais523> in range of a wireless access point
20:58:09 <ehird> heh!
20:58:39 <ais523> how's the C-INTERCAL testing going?
20:58:54 <ehird> AnMaster went brb phone
20:58:56 <ehird> so nothing
20:58:58 <ehird> oh looky
20:58:59 <ehird> 5242 A Generalized Unified Character Code: Western European and CJK
20:58:59 <ehird> Sections. J. Klensin, H. Alvestrand. April 1 2008. (Format: TXT=31314
20:59:00 <ehird> bytes) (Status: INFORMATIONAL)
20:59:03 * ehird grabs it from ftp
20:59:17 <AnMaster> back
20:59:23 <ais523> ehird: link?
20:59:27 <ehird> ais523: getting one now
20:59:31 <ehird> i got that from the big .txt index of rfcs
20:59:45 <AnMaster> wow
20:59:48 <AnMaster> ehird, link!!!
21:00:00 <ehird> ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc5242.txt
21:00:09 <ehird> it was published 20 minutes ago apparently
21:00:15 <ehird> (it says 9:44 presumably +1)
21:00:17 <ehird> err wait
21:00:18 <ehird> hmm
21:00:19 <ehird> maybe 9am
21:00:20 <ehird> not sure
21:00:22 <ehird> but whatever, it's new
21:00:32 <ais523> I've been wondering about the April Fool's RFC
21:00:43 <ehird> hmm
21:00:46 <ehird> is this even april fools?
21:00:50 <ehird> maybe i'm reading too quickly
21:01:16 <ehird> unified-ccs@xn--iwem3b1f.xn--90ase1a.bogus.domain.name
21:01:19 <AnMaster> http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5241.txt
21:01:20 <ehird> that seems april foolsy
21:01:22 <AnMaster> is the rfc
21:01:28 <ais523> ehird: top of page 3 looks pretty aprilfoolsy
21:01:31 * SimonRC goes
21:01:40 <ais523> it's basically the opposite of the Unicode guidelines for such things
21:01:52 <AnMaster> ais523, ee
21:01:55 <AnMaster> eeh*
21:02:07 <ais523> middle of page 3 is even worse
21:02:45 <ehird> if its an april fools, its not very funny
21:03:22 <ais523> ehird: in that case, you've missed the joke entirely
21:03:26 <ehird> maybe
21:04:01 <ais523> wow, it allows you to define INTERCAL characters
21:04:10 <AnMaster> ais523, ehird or maybe: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5241.txt is the joke one?
21:04:14 <ais523> INTERCAL's been missing <OJ> forever and has had to use a backspace as a replacement
21:04:50 <ehird> AnMaster: maybe
21:04:51 <ais523> "For example, the characters "b" and "d" are coded as o<VerticalLine><PositionLeft> and o<VerticalLine><PositionRight>, respectively."
21:04:57 <ais523> that surely isn't serious
21:05:07 <ehird> ais523: 5241 seems like a joke though
21:05:16 <ais523> maybe they're both jokes
21:05:43 <ehird> Raising an additional US$1 M from the rental of naming rights could
21:05:43 <ehird> significantly change the budget dynamics. Perhaps meeting fees could
21:05:43 <ehird> be reduced for all attendees or special subsidies could be provided
21:05:43 <ehird> to needy students, researchers, or job seekers.
21:05:43 <AnMaster> or none of them are?
21:05:43 <ais523> 5242 wasn't produced by the IETF; apparently, more than one standards body can produce RFCs
21:06:37 <ehird> 6.1. Acceptable Taste-Wise
21:06:44 <ais523> OK, 5242 is definitely a joke, no serious RFC leaves things as exercises for the reader
21:06:49 <ehird> IP: Garmin GPS Destination Address
21:06:53 <ehird> IP: White & Day Mortuary Time-to-live
21:06:57 <ehird> TCP: Princess Cruise Lines Port Number
21:07:01 <ehird> ARP: Springfield Preschool Timeout
21:07:04 <AnMaster> ok
21:07:05 <ehird> BGP: Sharpie Marker field
21:07:09 <ehird> TFRC: Traveler's Insurance Loss Period
21:07:13 <ehird> SCTP: Hershey's Chunk {type|flags|length}
21:07:13 <ehird> SMTP: eHarmony HELO
21:07:13 <ehird> 5241 is certainl the funnier one
21:07:13 <ehird> ais523: but its not as funny as 5241
21:07:13 <ehird> because its the biggest bikeshed ever
21:07:23 <ehird> Upon the adoption of this proposal the RFC Editor SHALL create XML
21:07:23 <ehird> versions of all IETF RFCs. The XML must be such that a perfect copy
21:07:23 <ehird> of the original RFC can be produced using a tool such as xml2rfc
21:07:23 <ehird> [XML2RFC]. The XML versions of RFCs must identify all individual
21:07:23 <ehird> protocol fields using an XML protocol field element of the form:
21:09:21 <AnMaster> " between a term that would best represent the half-life of an Internet
21:09:22 <AnMaster> startup (1 or 2 years)"
21:10:13 <ehird> hah
21:12:38 <ais523> http://www.google.com/virgle/images/opensource.jpg
21:12:43 <ais523> that's a great image
21:14:03 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the other figure?
21:14:06 <AnMaster> the non-tux one
21:14:10 <ehird> AnMaster: an alien
21:14:14 <AnMaster> ah
21:14:15 <ehird> virgle is a space travel joke
21:14:16 <AnMaster> not a logo then
21:14:18 <ais523> ehird: you beat me to it
21:14:25 <ehird> its also one of the Google Talk avatars you can select
21:14:31 <AnMaster> yes I read the Virgle stuff
21:14:32 -!- Judofyr has quit.
21:14:40 * ehird is full of knowledge
21:14:46 <AnMaster> Google Talk? never used it
21:15:10 <ais523> neither have I, but I think it's just an interface to Jabber
21:15:24 <ehird> yeah
21:15:28 <ehird> pretty much
21:15:36 <ehird> i use the address for my jabber stuff
21:17:42 <ehird> [21:17] <freebird> Rienzilla, what do you mean by physical devices ...
21:17:46 <ehird> [21:17] <Rienzilla> a thing
21:17:50 <ehird> [21:17] <Rienzilla> if you throw it at someone, it might hurt :)
21:17:55 <ais523> ehird: which channel was that in?
21:17:58 <ehird> ais523: #debian
21:20:10 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and I'd like to know more about details for funge <-> intercal stuff
21:20:14 <AnMaster> ie, exactly what you mean
21:20:48 <AnMaster> oh and any patches will not be accepted in the current coding style of ick ;P
21:20:48 <ais523> well, maybe I should show you an example of INTERCAL <-> C, then we can discuss how it would apply to funge
21:20:54 <ais523> AnMaster: they won't be
21:21:02 <ehird> http://adsense.blogspot.com/2008/04/introducing-adsense-for-conversations.html
21:21:20 <ehird> Orkut also displayed name as Yoghurt
21:21:28 <ehird> 'Google launches Dajare in Japan (google.co.jp), with the mission of "organizing the world’s laughter." [2]'
21:21:33 <ehird> 'Google announces gDay in Australia (http://www.google.com.au/intl/en/gday/press.html), a new beta search technology that will search web pages 24 hours before they are created.'
21:21:38 <AnMaster> ehird, yes didn't get that one
21:21:40 <ehird> 'Google announces Google 사투리 번역 (Google dialect translation) for translating regional dialects of Korean to and from Standard Korean.[3]'
21:21:41 <AnMaster> the last I mean
21:21:42 <AnMaster> err
21:21:47 <AnMaster> Dajare I mean
21:21:49 <ehird> 'Google added the "I'm Feeling Lucky" button to its calendar feature. When you tried to create a new event, you were given the regular option of entering the correct details and hitting "Create Event," and also the new option of "I'm Feeling Lucky" which would set you up with an evening date with, among others, Matt Damon, Eric Cartman, Tom Cruise, Jessica Alba, Pamela Anderson, Paris Hilton, Angelina Jolie, Britney Spears, Anna Kournikova, Johnny Depp,
21:21:49 <ehird> George W. Bush, or Lois Griffin.'
21:21:56 <ehird> 'Google launched their "Wake Up Kit" as a calendar notification option. The option sends a series of increasingly aggressive alerts, starting with an SMS message to your cellphone, and ending with a bucket of water dumped into your bed, which would then flip over, tossing you out (all using apparently-free equipment).'
21:22:03 <AnMaster> ehird, it is just easier to paste link to wikipedia you know
21:22:03 <AnMaster> :P
21:22:03 <ehird> 'A little easter egg was added, where a user can click the file menu and directly under new document is "New Airplane" which immediately opens a copy of a Google branded paper airplane. To reach the file menu, click the new menu, then "Document" then a new window opens.' (google docs)
21:22:08 <ehird> AnMaster: stuff you :D
21:22:13 <ehird> 'Google launches Manpower Search (谷歌人肉搜索) in China (google.cn). This new feature is powered by 25 million volunteers who do the searching around the clock. When the user entered a keyword, volunteers will search any possible answers from a mass of paper documents as well as online resources. The user is expected to get the search result within 32 seconds.'
21:22:18 <ehird> 'Google Books has a new section allowing users to 'scratch and sniff' certain books. Users are asked to "...please place your nose near the monitor and click 'Go'" which then 'loads odours'. When clicking on 'Help' users are redirected to a Google Book page entitled "Belgravia: A London Magazine"'
21:22:19 <ehird> there
21:22:20 <ehird> that's all of em
21:22:20 <ehird> heh
21:22:51 <ais523> AnMaster: the way INTERCAL <-> C linking works is this:
21:22:52 <AnMaster> so far
21:23:01 <ais523> you designate functions inside a C program using ICK_EC_FUNC_START
21:23:20 <ais523> which basically defines a wrapper around a void(*)(void)
21:24:01 <ais523> you can write COME FROM, NEXT, NEXT FROM, RESUME, FORGET, and CREATE inside the C function using C-named statements (like ick_comefrom)
21:24:31 <ais523> when the INTERCAL program encounters a line label, it calls all the specially-marked C functions, and jumps between the ick_comefrom calls in them using a chain of gotos
21:24:47 <AnMaster> hm
21:24:52 <ais523> and if any of them want to do the comefrom, they can steal execution and transfer it to the body of the program
21:25:09 <AnMaster> that will be terribly hard to do in befunge
21:25:11 <ais523> (actually I pass through all of them once to verify that there's exactly one COME FROM, and then again to jump to the right one if there is)
21:25:22 <AnMaster> even if you could say have M for come from
21:25:24 <ais523> in Befunge, you'd have a fingerprint add COME FROM, etc., to the language
21:25:25 <AnMaster> what parameters to M?
21:25:28 <AnMaster> you couldn't know
21:25:32 <AnMaster> until you hit it
21:25:33 <ais523> AnMaster: it would have to take them from the playfield
21:25:42 <AnMaster> ais523, they can be stored anyhow
21:25:44 <ais523> as far as I can tell it's the only solution
21:25:48 <AnMaster> vertically or whatever
21:26:13 <AnMaster> or using x, anywhere at all
21:26:14 <AnMaster> indeed
21:26:22 -!- Iskr has quit ("Leaving").
21:26:31 <ais523> you could write the char for 1666 followed by M, to do a COME FROM (1666)
21:26:35 <AnMaster> well
21:26:41 <ais523> and modify the playfield to do computed COME FROMs
21:26:42 <AnMaster> char for it?
21:26:56 <AnMaster> you need maths to push on the stack
21:26:59 <AnMaster> like say
21:27:21 <ais523> AnMaster: do you think it should run a Befunge program instead to calculate the line label?
21:27:30 <ehird> ais523: c-intercal downloads are absolutely crushing my traffic
21:27:31 <ehird> not
21:27:40 <ehird> not one person apart from you three have downloaded the tgz yet
21:27:45 <ais523> something like M1a*6+a*6+a*6+@
21:27:52 <ais523> would be COME FROM 1666
21:27:53 <AnMaster> f7*6+
21:27:56 <AnMaster> to get 111
21:27:58 <AnMaster> I think
21:28:26 <AnMaster> but you could store that as:
21:28:31 <ehird> brilliant
21:28:32 <ais523> and then when the line (1666) was reached, the Befunge program would gain control from the M, but going, for instance, downwards, so that it didn't hit the calculate line number code
21:28:37 <AnMaster> M+6*7f<
21:28:39 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
21:28:43 <AnMaster> or vertically or so on
21:29:05 <AnMaster> or do you mean a marker in the code?
21:29:06 <ais523> AnMaster: you mean it would look for < ^ > v on the same line as the COME FROM
21:29:14 <ais523> the M would be the marker
21:29:15 <AnMaster> ais523, wouldn't work
21:29:25 <AnMaster> but I guess you could restrict it to a special format
21:29:25 <ais523> AnMaster: what's the issue here?
21:29:42 <AnMaster> ais523, using x it may be stored diagonally or whatever as well
21:29:55 <ais523> so there needs to be some kind of marker
21:30:11 <ais523> or you would have to restrict it to ordinary-moving IPs
21:30:26 <AnMaster> you would have to restrict to cardinal IPs you mean?
21:30:31 <ais523> yes
21:30:37 <AnMaster> ^>v< is called cardinal ;P
21:30:38 <ais523> cardinal, and one char at a time
21:30:40 <AnMaster> in befunge-speak
21:30:56 <AnMaster> which, considering how intercal speak looks, I feel isn't so bad
21:31:03 <AnMaster> ;P
21:31:06 <oklopol> intercal looks so awesome
21:31:13 <AnMaster> no comments
21:31:16 <ais523> oklopol: you been playing with the new compiler too?
21:31:24 <oklopol> ais523: i haven't done anything with intercal
21:31:34 <oklopol> but i love the way it mixes ork and malgolbe
21:31:36 <oklopol> *malbolge
21:31:37 <AnMaster> ais523, oh another thing, how would you locate Ms?
21:31:42 <AnMaster> remember funge-space can change
21:31:47 <ais523> AnMaster: look at the playfield
21:31:54 <AnMaster> and well my funge-space doesn't work well for searching in
21:31:57 <ais523> whenever you reached a line number you'd have to scan the playfield for Ms
21:32:10 <ais523> and don't worry about the efficiency of COME FROM, it's inefficient more or less by definition
21:32:12 <AnMaster> ais523, that would be awesomelly slow
21:32:25 <AnMaster> ais523, because I use a hash library
21:32:27 <ais523> what about caching a list of all playfield locations with Ms in
21:32:34 <AnMaster> ais523, ok you could do that
21:32:40 <AnMaster> wouldn't be to hard
21:32:50 <AnMaster> you would need to hook into the loading routines for files
21:32:54 <AnMaster> and into set routine
21:32:59 <AnMaster> to notice when new are added
21:33:04 <AnMaster> well all use the set one
21:33:08 <AnMaster> so not too hard
21:33:24 <ais523> no, not hard at all
21:33:31 <AnMaster> FUNGE_FAST static inline void FungeSpaceSetNoBoundUpdate(FUNGEDATATYPE value, const fungePosition * restrict position)
21:33:33 <AnMaster> that :)
21:33:42 <AnMaster> FUNGE_FAST expands to regparam(3) attribute btw
21:33:46 <AnMaster> on i386
21:34:01 <AnMaster> # define FUNGE_FAST __attribute__((regparm(3)))
21:34:03 <ais523> anyway, COME FROM, NEXT FROM, and line labels are the 'feral' things that can gain control from anywhere
21:34:22 <AnMaster> ais523, hope you won't barf on that calling convention ;)
21:34:27 <oklopol> pancakes
21:34:30 <ais523> AnMaster: I shouldn't
21:34:50 <ais523> oklopol: why not download C-INTERCAL 0.28 and run some of the example programs?
21:35:24 <ehird> oklopol: intercal predates ork and malbolge
21:35:35 <AnMaster> ais523, hm, hope so, well stuff will fail if you compile one bit with gcc and another with another c compiler
21:35:44 <ais523> AnMaster: -e requires gcc to work
21:35:45 <ehird> AnMaster: I find your micro-optimization disturbing.
21:35:58 <AnMaster> ehird, well you didn't like clean code did you?
21:35:58 <oklopol> ehird: i know it does
21:36:05 <ais523> ehird: AnMaster put lots of effort into beating ccbi by as much as possible
21:36:06 <oklopol> that's a bit beside the point
21:36:11 <ehird> ais523: quite
21:36:12 <AnMaster> ais523, correct
21:36:20 <AnMaster> and I beat it very very far on x86_64
21:36:20 <ehird> oklopol: and if you do download it.. http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/ick-0-28.tgz :D
21:36:25 <ehird> i'm like sgeo
21:36:28 <ehird> without the psox
21:36:52 <ais523> oklopol: actually, the command syntax of both ORK and INTERCAL parodies COBOL, so in that sense it's not surprising that they're similar
21:37:54 <AnMaster> ais523, is intercal case sensitive?
21:38:02 <ais523> AnMaster: yes by default
21:38:09 <AnMaster> by default *sigh*
21:38:19 <ais523> there's a define somewhere in the lexer that lets you change that
21:38:29 <ais523> but it's compiled in, and I don't know of anyone who changed it
21:38:36 <AnMaster> k
21:38:47 <AnMaster> well I got nothing against case sensitivity
21:39:19 <AnMaster> I just thought it would look very different with lower case
21:39:28 <oklopol> the point was not that intercal is like ork/malbolge, just that it mixed the two styles in a fun way.
21:39:41 <oklopol> i mean, superficially, i really don't know anything about it
21:40:01 <ais523> oklopol: the flow control model is actually really interesting once you get used to it
21:40:02 <AnMaster> ais523, as for "look for < on same line"
21:40:05 <AnMaster> that wouldn't really work
21:40:23 <ais523> AnMaster: agreed, it seems a bit hacky
21:40:24 <AnMaster> ais523, another thing, the value in question you should look for should be in RPN notation, going towards M
21:40:28 <AnMaster> that is what you need
21:40:28 <ais523> like DO loops in Fortran
21:40:58 <AnMaster> ais523, there are fingerprints that allow moving the ip one line down without changing delta anyway ;P
21:40:58 <ais523> AnMaster: INTERCAL allows non-constants in COME FROMs, but Befunge can do that anyway using p
21:41:34 <ais523> as for searching for < and so on, it wouldn't really be a case of doing it because that's the only way to reach the M
21:41:44 <ais523> more a case of you have to write it like that so that the compiler can find it
21:43:04 <AnMaster> ais523, well you would have to maintain a cache, because I want to be able to just take out most of the funge-space stuff and replace it
21:43:04 <ais523> either that, or you could add some sort of marker character that marked the start of a COMEFROM input, with M at the end
21:43:17 <AnMaster> ais523, as profiling show that is the slowest bit for x86_64
21:43:21 <AnMaster> by far
21:43:49 <ais523> well, it would be possible to write a search-for-Ms-script in pure Befunge
21:43:57 <ais523> ridiculously slow, but avoid messing with the interpreter
21:44:04 <AnMaster> ais523, well a hook would be easy
21:44:11 <AnMaster> the general layout would be maintained for such stuff
21:44:42 <AnMaster> just the actual calls to the hash library may change drastically
21:45:53 <ais523> you could do the hook as a function call to a function that isn't in your compiler guarded by a #define
21:47:10 <AnMaster> yes sure I could add a function pointer hook
21:47:25 <AnMaster> I need something like that for my debugger protocol anyway
21:48:07 <ais523> AnMaster: is cfunge reentrant?
21:48:40 <AnMaster> ais523, depends, I may use non _r stuff
21:48:42 <ais523> that is, can I simulate a function call by taking control from the hook, doing my own things, and then calling cfunge again to cause it to simulate things in a different place, with the old IP still on the C call stack?
21:48:44 <AnMaster> but well what do you mean
21:48:53 <AnMaster> ais523, I got no clue
21:48:55 <AnMaster> I never tried
21:49:00 <ais523> no, most people don't
21:49:13 <AnMaster> ais523, I mean, that is not something I planned for
21:49:22 <ais523> it would be needed for function calls out of Befunge to the INTERCAL program to work
21:49:34 <ais523> if the INTERCAL program was allowed to call back to the Befunge from there
21:49:52 <AnMaster> ais523, well I do use global variables for stuff
21:50:05 <AnMaster> and if you do from hook into funge space code, well things would be uggly
21:50:20 <ais523> the ideal situation would be if you used global variables for everything but the IP
21:50:32 <ais523> but it's trivial to work around that being global too by making a local copy
21:50:35 <AnMaster> ais523, the ip/ip list is a static variable
21:50:48 <AnMaster> ip is then passed around
21:51:18 <AnMaster> ip list is currently passed around as well but I plan to change that for performance reasons
21:51:23 <ais523> OK, I think I could make that work with single-threaded Befunge, no idea how it would work with concurrency in the Befunge program
21:52:04 <AnMaster> ais523, you know, I'm not sure how I made concurrency work with befunge at all in some places ;P
21:52:18 <AnMaster> concurrency in befunge really makes stuff complex
21:52:30 <AnMaster> one reason for the debugging protocol stuff
21:52:39 <AnMaster> brb
21:54:36 <ehird> tons o' Ubuntu users
21:54:38 <ehird> or is that me
21:54:57 <ais523> ehird: probably you and me
21:55:14 <ais523> disregard your own IP range
21:55:30 <ais523> and mine's when I'm here
21:56:37 -!- cherez has joined.
21:56:53 <ais523> ehird: now if you were really doing a Sgeo, you'd spam cherez at this point
21:57:35 <ehird> oops
21:57:46 <ehird> cherez: Tried out C-INTERCAL 0.28?
21:57:50 <ehird> ...
21:57:52 <ehird> cherez: ping
21:57:58 <ehird> cherez: Hello??????
21:58:03 <ehird> :D
21:58:14 <AnMaster> Gentoo
21:58:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Windows
21:58:49 <ais523> are you both calling out the names of operating systems at random, or is there some purpose to that?
21:58:57 <ehird> i have no idea
21:59:07 <ehird> is sgeo gone, by the way?
21:59:08 <cherez> ehird: pong
21:59:11 <ehird> i haven't seen him recently
21:59:17 <ehird> cherez: ignore me, i was imitating Sgeo
21:59:24 <cherez> I figured as such.
21:59:39 <cherez> Always spamming me.
21:59:43 <ais523> I released a new version of the C-INTERCAL compiler today, and ehird is hosting it and therefore decided to spam everyone about it
22:01:45 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:02:04 <Deformative> ais523: ?
22:02:12 <ais523> I just pinged everyone in #esoteric
22:02:14 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and for cfunge you need to distrbuted version control system bazaar installed
22:02:14 -!- cherez has joined.
22:02:15 <ais523> out of interest, mostly
22:02:20 <AnMaster> version 0.92 or later
22:02:28 <AnMaster> 1.3 recommended
22:02:42 <ais523> strangely, not everyone replied, maybe because their clients don't do CTCP ping
22:02:43 <AnMaster> ais523, and bzr needs python, so for DOS you got to copy the files ;P
22:02:55 <ehird> that's more interesting
22:02:57 <ais523> RodgerTheGreat was fastest, by the way, and lament was slowest
22:03:08 <ehird> 'VERSION'
22:03:10 <ehird> not Version
22:03:22 <AnMaster> ehird, mine sent Version?
22:03:22 <ais523> [CTCP] Received Version request from ehird to channel #esoteric.
22:03:27 <ehird> oh
22:03:28 <ehird> okay then
22:03:30 <ais523> ehird: that's pretty bad
22:03:36 <AnMaster> I'm quite sure mine sent VERSION
22:03:37 <ehird> ais523: ?
22:03:39 <ehird> yeah
22:03:41 <ehird> konversation bug
22:03:51 <ehird> [22:02] [CTCP] Received CTCP-VERSION reply from Deewiant: Deewiantbot version NaN
22:03:55 <ais523> ehird: worked for me
22:04:03 <ais523> I wrote /ctcp #esoteric version
22:04:04 <AnMaster> -Deewiant- VERSION Deewiantbot version NaN
22:04:11 <AnMaster> * Received a CTCP version from ais523 (to #esoteric)
22:04:16 <AnMaster> ais523, you sent lower case
22:04:33 <ais523> so Konversation doesn't automatically upcase ctcps?
22:04:38 <AnMaster> no clue
22:04:39 <ais523> I got lots of responses, anyway
22:04:45 <ais523> some were also in lowercase
22:04:47 <AnMaster> it may do
22:04:53 <ais523> like the ones from RodgerTheGreat and clog
22:04:55 <AnMaster> I sent upper case I'm sure
22:04:59 <AnMaster> /ver #esoteric
22:05:08 <ehird> no
22:05:09 <AnMaster> and I got all upper case
22:05:12 <ehird> konversation titlecases thm
22:05:13 <ehird> on recieve
22:05:19 <ais523> AnMaster: you sent your answer in uppercase
22:05:24 <AnMaster> -RodgerTheGreat- VERSION Colloquy 2.1 (3761) - Mac OS X 10.4.11 (Intel) - http://colloquy.info
22:05:27 <AnMaster> that
22:05:35 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I know
22:05:47 <AnMaster> ais523, I love my irc client you know what one it is
22:06:08 <AnMaster> should put "made with emacs" on cfunge website
22:06:10 <AnMaster> ;P
22:06:10 <ais523> well, I like Konversation, and telnet, but for almost opposite reasons
22:06:12 <AnMaster> well got to sleep now
22:06:59 <ehird> byebye AnMaster
22:07:01 <ehird> :p
22:08:20 <ais523> BTW, the CLC-INTERCAL maintainer gave me some clues on how to do an IRC client in CLC-INTERCAL, so I may have a go at that
22:10:02 <ehird> ais523: you should make a graphical intercal
22:10:05 <ehird> program = tree structure
22:10:16 <ehird> it should be 'helpful' in various ways that are more useless than helpful
22:10:20 <ehird> also, use Athena or something else outdated
22:10:24 <ehird> but make it look like Motif
22:10:35 <ehird> because 'that's what you're used to on your SCO Unix desktop'
22:11:00 <ehird> 'You can see motiflook.c and modify it if you are used to another desktop look (such as Tk or Xt).'
22:14:05 <ehird> ais523: no? ;)
22:14:13 <ais523> ehird: not entirely sure what you mean
22:14:17 <ais523> do you mean graphical source code
22:14:21 <ais523> or a graphical IDE, or what
22:16:10 <ehird> ais523: both
22:16:20 <ehird> ais523: it gets 'serialized to INTERCAL for the compiler'
22:16:29 <ehird> but you can only serialize it from the program, and only to put it in the compiler
22:16:34 <ehird> to save it, it uses a complex format
22:16:38 <ehird> which is like a bitmap with semantic metadata
22:16:47 <ais523> ehird: no, I'd prefer to have some proper way to convert to INTERCAL
22:16:47 <ehird> ais523: but a graphical IDE using graphical source code
22:16:50 <ehird> i.e. the program is a tree
22:16:52 <ehird> :D
22:16:56 <ehird> ais523: offer a perl script
22:17:01 <ais523> although doing it using a decompiler that reverses C-INTERCAL's effect would be interesting
22:17:02 <ehird> it parses the bitmap, does OCR on the text
22:17:07 <ehird> and uses the semantic metadata to convert to text
22:17:52 <ehird> and say 'If you do not have a PERL implementation on your system, you can telnet in to my box at ais.cwrccu.mit.edu and copy it from /usr/sww6/r/bin/perl.'
22:17:54 <ehird> :D
22:20:27 <ehird> ais523: Maybe I'm the only person that is amused by that
22:20:32 <ehird> Prboably.
22:20:36 <ehird> Oh look, msnbot is poking around my site.
22:20:39 <ehird> I'm popular.
22:20:40 <ais523> I do like the idea of copying a binary acrss
22:20:54 <ais523> ehird: this just goes to show that Google and Yahoo! are faster at indexing than Windows Live
22:20:59 <ehird> Someone just tried with Lynx and w3m..
22:21:23 <ais523> ehird: are you getting some idea of what the popularity of INTERCAL is like, now?
22:21:34 <ais523> remember that many people will be downloading from the other websites
22:21:40 <ehird> :D
22:21:42 <ehird> ais523: Yeah, that's true
22:21:43 <ais523> ehird: it does work in w3m, presumably?
22:21:48 <ais523> actually, I'll test
22:21:52 <ehird> yeah, i'm sure it does
22:21:55 <ehird> look at the dir listing source
22:21:56 <ehird> very simple
22:22:11 <ais523> yep, it's fine
22:22:15 <ehird> just the skeleton, an H2, and a PRE
22:23:09 <ais523> and ehird, I wouldn't be at all surprised if text-browser usage and INTERCAL usage were positively correlated
22:23:42 <ehird> yeah
22:23:50 <ehird> but i think it was just someone trying to find something to whine about
22:23:56 <ehird> there's a lot of people who do that with text-only browsers
22:24:02 <ehird> like someone complained about reddit not being usable in lynx
22:24:23 <ais523> hmm... it seems the largest INTERCAL programs in the examples are unlambda.i, quine.i and interfunge.i in that order
22:24:27 <ehird> the dir listing is really usable via lynx actually
22:24:37 <ais523> ehird: yes, via w3m too
22:25:17 <ehird> -debug DO NOT USE -- w3m
22:25:20 <ehird> i love that doc
22:25:36 <ais523> there's a similar option in C-INTERCAL
22:25:41 <ehird> ais523: elinks too. of course it does, its an html, head, title, body, h2, and pre with a
22:25:45 <ehird> oh, and an hr
22:25:50 <ehird> hardly any possibility to go wrong
22:25:53 <ais523> generated programs have a +mystery option that is deliberately undocumented
22:26:42 <ehird> what DOES it do?
22:26:49 <ais523> ehird: normally nothing
22:27:08 <ais523> if you happened to compile with the constant-output optimiser, though, it cuts off the program after 4 billion steps
22:27:17 <ehird> ais523: btw c-intercal won't -F quine.i
22:27:17 <ais523> and returns with an unusual error code
22:27:20 <ehird> maybe runs a bit too long
22:27:43 <ais523> ehird: I doubt that's the problem, it's likely something else, because -F is pretty conservative
22:27:53 <ehird> beer.i too
22:28:47 <ais523> actually, -F isn't working at all for me at the moment
22:28:53 <ais523> it doesn't work on primes.i, but used to
22:29:18 <ais523> so I've probably broken it somewhere
22:29:35 <ais523> oh well, at least it still bumps gcc up to -O3
22:29:43 <ais523> I'll have to look into what's wrong there, as well
22:33:30 <ehird> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation
22:33:32 <ehird> the example there
22:33:39 <ehird> will it work with continuation.i?
22:33:42 <ais523> ehird: that requires an interactive program
22:33:51 -!- oklopol has quit (No route to host).
22:33:55 <ais523> you can't set up the calls in the right way, because the continuations themselves run off
22:34:11 <ais523> e.g. it calls theContinuation multiple times, but never gets control back again
22:35:45 <ehird> yeah
22:35:48 <ehird> i guess so
22:35:53 <ehird> ais523: implement an intercal repl!
22:36:00 <ais523> repl?
22:36:46 -!- wildhalcyon has joined.
22:37:24 <ehird> ais523: Read,Eval,Print,Loop
22:37:35 <wildhalcyon> Hi folks
22:37:37 <ais523> there's intercalc, which is a CLC-iNTERCAL version
22:37:39 <ais523> hi wildhalcyon
22:37:40 <ehird> You can actually define it like that in a forth-alike
22:37:44 <ais523> we were discussing INTERCAL
22:37:47 <ehird> : loop read eval print loop ;
22:37:57 <wildhalcyon> INTERCAL, huh?
22:38:07 <ais523> I released a new version of C-INTERCAL today
22:38:12 <wildhalcyon> oh? congrats
22:38:35 <ais523> and a new version of the rival CLC-INTERCAL was also released
22:39:20 <wildhalcyon> I didn't know you were in charge of C-INTERCAL development.
22:39:33 <ehird> DID I MENTION I HOST A MIRROR?
22:39:38 <ehird> ok, this sgeo imitation is getting old
22:39:45 <ehird> i'll stop now
22:39:52 <ais523> well, I just released the last few versions, and eventually decided that I was the de facto C-INTERCAL maintainer
22:40:30 <wildhalcyon> ehird, you could imitate me. Just claim that you've invented some particularly well-known entity.
22:40:34 <ehird> ais523: you seem to be the only one who actually works on it
22:40:45 <ehird> wildhalcyon: I invented mirrors! Take a look: http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/ick-0-28.tgz Aren't they cool?
22:40:46 <ehird> like that?
22:40:49 <ais523> ehird: Joris Huizer has sent me a lot of patches
22:40:56 <wildhalcyon> yeah, pretty much :-)
22:41:17 <ais523> I can normally expect a bugfix from Joris within a week or so of releasing a new version
22:42:12 <wildhalcyon> so who's Eric Raymond then?
22:42:22 <ehird> wildhalcyon: who's Eric Raymond?
22:42:22 <ehird> Hah!
22:42:37 <wildhalcyon> I've heard the name a few times.
22:42:44 <ehird> I'd say "an idiot", other people say "a revolutionary"
22:42:46 <wildhalcyon> man, I'm really sounding pretty ignorant these days
22:43:00 <wildhalcyon> I know he's kind of been pioneering the open source stuff
22:43:04 * ais523 remembers Raymond, Stallman and Torvalds as being some of the best known names in Open Source
22:43:07 <ehird> basically - apparently is 'integral to the open source movement' but doesn't really do anything
22:43:14 <ehird> and basically he himself claims that
22:43:25 <ehird> he wrote 'fetchmail', and that's about it. and fetchmail is more of a shame than a positive thing
22:43:36 <ais523> also gpsd
22:43:43 <ehird> also, he's very egotistical, a gun nut and intolerant. BUT that's just my opinion.
22:43:46 <ehird> Other people like him.
22:43:47 <ais523> and C-INTERCAL, of course
22:43:50 <ehird> ais523: Well, yes.
22:44:18 <ehird> i did find 'How to be a hacker' amusing, though, because it should have been titled 'How to be me'
22:44:20 <wildhalcyon> ... what's gpsd?
22:44:25 <ehird> wildhalcyon: Make your own decisions. http://www.catb.org/~esr/
22:44:41 <ais523> wildhalcyon: daemon for communicating with a GPS receiver
22:44:50 <ais523> I happened to be using it recently
22:45:04 <wildhalcyon> so ais, are you now the defacto maintainer of C-INTERCAL? Did Eric abandon it?
22:45:18 <ehird> eric abandoned it pretty much
22:45:43 <ais523> it hadn't been updated in a year
22:45:44 <wildhalcyon> Well, glad someone took it up
22:45:48 <ais523> well, more than a year
22:45:52 <wildhalcyon> INTERCAL is outstanding. I'd hate to lose it
22:45:57 <ais523> so I forked but used the next available version number
22:46:01 <ais523> and then it just continued from there
22:52:03 <ais523> oh well, conversation seems to have died now, and it seems unlikely I'll get many more requests for help, bugfixes, etc. right now, so I may as well go home
22:52:41 <RodgerTheGreat> bbl folks
22:52:44 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit.
22:52:48 <ehird> oop
22:52:55 <ehird> just as i was about to write an intercal program
22:52:55 <ehird> :)
22:53:03 <ehird> bye, ais523!
22:54:32 <ais523> umm... I didn't mean to set away
22:54:36 <wildhalcyon> oh, okay, bye
22:55:12 -!- ais523 has quit ("bye, everyone!").
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23:56:42 <ehird> hello
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