00:23:57 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:46:44 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 01:21:07 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 01:48:06 ehird, smalltalk is pretty cool. 01:54:34 heh :) 01:58:22 I'm starting to understand the syntax better, but I still think there are some superfluous semicolons. 01:58:50 I haven't figured out how to change syntax in squeak 02:00:12 which semicolons are superfluous? 02:02:00 For instance: Transcript show: 'hello world'; cr. (quoted from the Squeak By Example documentation, pg 12) 02:02:19 what does cr mean? 02:02:35 carriage return? 02:02:39 I believe so, yes 02:03:22 well.. compare that to what you would have in some other language 02:03:29 Transcript.show("hello world") 02:03:33 Transcript.cr() 02:04:04 I'm not saying its not better, or wicked cool. Because it is, on both counts. 02:04:23 the thing the semicolon does is called "cascade" 02:04:27 Maybe I should spend some more time on it 02:04:32 cascade? 02:04:49 both the message show: and the message cr are sent to Transcript 02:05:05 ohh, okay 02:05:06 ; is shortcut for "send to the same receiver the previous message was sent to" 02:06:05 Alright 02:06:24 I guess that makes sense 02:08:32 I was hoping something cool would happen if I typed in 3 + 4; + 2 02:08:36 but.. nothing exciting happened 02:09:54 right, you want side-effecty messages for that to make any sense 02:10:12 -!- ehird_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:10:46 I guess so, either that or I shouldn't have used a constant 02:11:10 self-modification is a side effect 02:12:10 Oh, well that makes sense from a purely functional perspective 02:13:54 ; makes you lose the return value of the first message 02:14:11 so if there were no side effects, nothing happens 02:16:05 Alright 02:27:27 -!- oklopol has quit (No route to host). 02:31:41 Thanks lament. Im off to bed now 02:31:43 g'night 02:32:20 -!- wildhalcyon has left (?). 02:43:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:49:44 -!- marshmallows has joined. 02:53:48 -!- kwertii has joined. 03:32:19 -!- okopol has joined. 03:38:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:45:09 -!- adu has joined. 03:59:45 -!- kwertii has quit ("bye"). 03:59:57 -!- kwertii has joined. 04:04:42 -!- calamari has joined. 05:42:12 http://veroz.vox.com/library/photo/6a00b8ea0717ec1bc000c2251f6997f219.html 05:53:09 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 06:11:00 hi 06:18:43 'night folks 06:18:47 cya adu 06:18:58 cya 06:19:04 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit. 07:33:29 -!- adu has quit (Client Quit). 07:33:48 -!- kwertii has quit ("bye"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("getting off, has headache"). 08:33:00 does halting problem ask: "will halt in finite time" vs. "will run forever", where that may include infinite loop or such? 08:33:37 if that is the case, you can partially solve the halting problem for befunge, any befuge program not containing, @, q, p or s will never halt I think 08:33:47 any program with one of those may halt 08:33:49 or may not 08:55:00 you can also partially solve the problem by running the program and waiting to see if it halts or not 08:59:01 -!- immibis has joined. 08:59:33 What happened to XKCD? 09:03:21 attacked by a bear 09:04:52 seriously? 09:29:12 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. and dlte ur files. and email ths to). 10:15:12 marshmallows, a 1 april joke I guess 10:17:01 just front page joke 10:22:13 -!- AnMaster_ has joined. 10:36:55 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection timed out). 10:37:20 -!- Iskr has joined. 10:55:58 marshmallows, there? 10:56:01 I finally got it 10:56:07 the xkcd thing 10:56:12 three web comics have rotated 10:56:14 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster. 10:57:13 eheh yes 10:57:31 today it's on qwantz.com 10:57:37 =) 10:58:12 basically three different webcomics are mixed up, so xkcd's front page display another comic, that other comic's front page display a third and the third one display xkcd 10:58:16 Iskr, exactly 11:00:07 Iskr, as I only read xkcd and userfriendly it took a while to find out 11:01:01 have you seen the thing about the penguins yet? 11:01:13 DOES NOT APPROVE 11:01:15 SimonRC, eh what? 11:01:15 PLEASE STOP MAKING COMICS 11:01:20 um, oops, wrong button 11:01:30 what are you talking about 11:01:35 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/01/npenguin101.xml 11:01:44 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23qDl1aH9l4 11:01:53 2 correct urls ^^ 11:02:01 * SimonRC curses the X clipboards 11:03:10 SimonRC, oh seen the google one? 11:03:14 and the youtube one? 11:03:57 for youtube. click on any "featured video" on front page 11:04:02 the star wars rube golberg machine? 11:04:04 http://www.google.com/virgle/index.html for google one 11:04:08 SimonRC, just click on any 11:04:12 see what happens 11:04:14 ah 11:04:34 I think it is some silly meme iirc? 11:04:42 yes 11:18:14 heh, the beeb have an iPlayer video about Rickrolling 12:12:34 I decided to try some fuzz testing 12:12:40 cat /dev/urandom | tr -Cd -- '-[:lower:][:digit:]\n\\ ;",.+*[](){}^<>@'\' | head -n 100 > fuzz.tmp 12:12:46 for befunge, just playing around 12:12:58 amzingly it turned out the program halted and produced output 12:13:06 "0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 i0 0 0 44 0 0 i32 0 0 0 44 0 0 0 i32 49 0 0 0 0 44 99 0 0 0 0 0 i32 49 \0 0 0 0 44 99 0 0 0 0 0 i32 49 \>0 0 0 0 0 0 44 99 108 0 0 0 0 0 0 i32 49 \>123 0 0 0 0 0 0 " 12:14:55 I ran it in sandbox mode of course 12:15:47 121 threads 12:19:12 hm and here is one producing a pattern like: 12:19:13 11 11 12:19:14 11 11 12:19:17 and so on 12:26:59 hah was useful found one that caused segfault, now to find out why 12:38:48 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:42:53 -!- marshmallows has quit ("Leaving"). 13:26:36 -!- jix has joined. 13:46:07 Deewiant, consider a program that is is just: 7kt 13:46:12 now that cause issues 13:46:20 valgrind screaming 13:46:30 * AnMaster wonders if ccbi handles that 13:46:56 $ ~/ccbi/ccbi_linux/ccbi tests/wtf.b98 13:46:57 Exited due to an error: at :0 13:47:00 Deewiant, seems like it didn't 13:47:01 hehehe 13:52:18 probably runs out of memory, what's there to 'handle'? :-P 13:52:33 Deewiant, hm would reflecting on that be allowed? 13:52:41 no? 13:52:45 hm 13:52:48 if you put something smart after that it's fine 13:52:55 eh? 13:53:02 7kt@ 13:53:20 perfectly valid 13:53:26 hm 13:54:08 makes 8 IPs, 7 of them go through the '7' before wrapping to the @, the original goes straight to the @, one goes through k7@ 13:55:54 hrrm 13:56:00 * AnMaster add kludges to k 13:58:28 if you put something smart on the stack beforehand and put some #s and branches there so that the IPs separate that's an OK way of making a bunch of threads 14:05:02 hrrm 14:12:13 -!- Judofyr has quit. 14:20:30 Deewiant, in the case of k, what ip should execute next? 14:21:18 Deewiant, because should it work as original ip spawned each time or as each new ip gets spawned? 14:25:19 "this duplicate is added to the IP list such that it is executed for the first time before the parent IP is next executed. " 14:25:29 yes indeed 14:25:36 among all those that are added by k, I suppose the order is undefined 14:25:41 indeed 14:25:43 as long as they're all before the one that came to the k 14:25:44 and would it matter? 14:25:53 Deewiant, yes that they should be 14:25:58 don't think it can matter 14:26:25 Deewiant, I'm doing fuzz testing atm btw: 14:26:32 cat /dev/urandom | tr -Cd -- '-[:lower:][:digit:]\n\\ ;",.+*[]{}^<>@`_|?:%$#!'\' | tr -d 'mhlior' | head -n 100 > fuzz.tmp 14:26:32 valgrind --leak-check=full ./cfunge -St 9 fuzz.tmp 14:26:34 over and over 14:26:43 yep, I saw that above :-) 14:26:44 aborting if the program gets into infinite loop 14:26:52 Deewiant, found two bugs so far 14:26:57 heh 14:26:58 of about 50 tests or so 14:27:08 what kind of stuff 14:27:23 one where I checked for (unsigend int - other unsigned int) > 0 14:27:25 XD 14:27:30 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:27:31 the other the t in k 14:27:48 aiee 14:27:52 ▒┴␋␍@├┤│ ·/␌/␌°┤┼±␊/├┤┼┐ $ 14:27:55 my terminal now 14:27:59 * AnMaster uses reset to reset it 14:29:20 I'd make a script which runs that repeatedly, piping cfunge to /dev/null, and only stopping when you hit a segfault 14:30:14 Deewiant, well some programs do have issues like infinite loop 14:30:20 so I'd need a timeout of some kind 14:30:37 of course 14:30:38 run for 1 second 14:30:47 Deewiant, also the t in k wasn't a segfault, it was just valgrind "invalid read" 14:30:55 ah 14:31:01 well, you can check for whatever of course 14:31:07 run once normally, check for segfault 14:31:12 run once under valgrind, check for segfault or errors 14:31:22 and any other mem/whatever testers you want 14:31:26 things do segfault under valgrind too normally 14:31:40 I haven't seen valgrind ever preventing a segfault from happening? 14:32:23 I have 14:32:29 hm 14:32:34 and programs that segfault only in valgrind 14:32:39 weird stuff 14:32:56 well the latter yes 14:33:09 if I link against boehm-gc it will segfault under valgrind 14:33:20 not odd considering both mess with memory in odd ways 14:34:34 tix=0 tid=0 x=324 y=0: (32) 14:34:34 tix=0 tid=0 x=325 y=0: (32) 14:34:36 huh 14:34:39 that shouldn't happen 14:34:58 it is a known issue that is does not print several space in row currently 14:34:59 so wtf 14:35:26 oh wait 14:35:30 it was in a string 14:35:32 that explains it 14:37:33 Deewiant, btw some output quite funny stuff 14:37:35 this was one: 14:37:36 http://rafb.net/p/ZtwV5r41.html 14:37:45 looks like a hillside viewed from the side IMO 14:37:51 heh 14:38:13 wait long enough and you'll get the works of Shakespeare ;-) 14:38:14 http://rafb.net/p/qq4XGt40.html was another such 14:38:17 Deewiant, XD 14:38:59 Deewiant, I wonder, you know, those that study evolving programs, using simulated genetics thing? 14:39:06 how would that work on befunge? 14:39:11 maybe a project for you? 14:39:16 :-P 14:39:33 I've got enough work as it is :-) 14:39:36 oh one that prints a endless stream of "ggggggggggggggggggggg" and so on 14:39:59 using a few thousands instructions for each g 14:40:10 hah 14:40:52 tix=64 tid=66 x=20 y=1: N (1128682830) <- the thing inside () is the ASCII code, I guess (char) wraps around heh 15:07:23 Well, I really have to go now. Bye all! 15:10:06 Deewiant, so I made an option to compile with alarm that causes program abort in case of too long running program 15:10:12 but yes I made a script now 15:10:36 Deewiant, ulimit -t didn't really work for a very simple reason: valgrind summary was not showed then 15:11:33 whoa another segfault 15:12:05 ==23783== Warning: client switching stacks? SP change: 0x7FEFFF1D0 --> 0x5E4CD4740 15:12:06 ==23783== to suppress, use: --max-stackframe=9029462672 or greater 15:12:06 ==23783== Invalid write of size 8 15:12:06 ==23783== at 0x4046E6: StackStackBegin (stack.c:364) 15:12:06 ==23783== Address 0x5e4cd4738 is on thread 1's stack 15:12:06 huh 15:13:03 err wtf 15:13:10 heh 15:13:27 Deewiant, random crash or infinite loop 15:13:38 a ? instruction duh 15:13:54 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 15:14:52 ah *replaces with <* 15:21:08 Deewiant, ccbi gives "Exited due to an error: at :0" at that thing 15:21:45 at same point that cfunge segfaults 15:21:55 Deewiant, oh wait on { does ccbi allocate stuff on the stack? 15:22:01 while copying elements? 15:23:35 Deewiant, this cause the issue for both ccbi and cfunge: 15:23:37 yy$c{{{ 15:24:42 well hmm, I wonder why 15:24:58 trying to move 1128481353 elements 15:25:05 Deewiant, yes indeed 15:25:26 Deewiant, mine allocates a variable length array on the stack and then overflows it 15:25:38 not sure if the heap would help 15:25:47 it would run out of memory either way right? 15:27:41 of course 15:27:52 mine uses the heap in all such cases 15:28:10 Deewiant, according to the specs you should reflect 15:28:14 nope 15:28:20 { may act like r if no more memory is available for another stack. 15:28:24 two things 15:28:26 right may 15:28:27 first, 'may' 15:28:35 second, there is mem for the other stack 15:28:45 the problem is the way I do { 15:28:46 actually why the temp storage hrrm 15:28:55 If the SOSS contains k elements, where k is less than n, the k elements are transferred as the top k elements and the remaining bottom (n-k) elements are filled in with zero-value cells. 15:28:56 I don't need it in fact 15:29:10 what I do is I just pop n elements from the SOSS 15:29:29 and they'll become zeroes after the SOSS is emptied, of course 15:30:11 but they need to be put in temp storage and allocating a 4-gigabyte array doesn't work 15:30:18 but in any case, it doesn't matter 15:30:27 since they wouldn't fit on the stack 15:30:30 actually if I can't allocate temp storage, there is no space for the new stack either 15:30:35 as growing the stack to 4 gigabytes doesn't work either :-P 15:34:41 hm what about } then 15:35:01 transfering 1128481353 elements that way doesn't work either 15:35:13 but can you reflect on that? 15:35:14 Deewiant, ? 15:35:21 up to you 15:35:30 can you detect whether the host machine has enough mem for that? 15:36:57 Deewiant, well other programs can use memory, then linux will overcommit memory and so on 15:37:03 so hard to say if it will work in advance 15:37:20 but I will make it reflect in both cases 15:37:30 Deewiant, I *can* check if malloc returns NULL 15:37:54 AnMaster: you'd have to check every time you grow the stack 15:38:02 if you want to, I guess that's fine 15:38:06 the alternative is to crash hard. 15:38:14 the specs, as usual, say nothing. 15:38:16 well yes I mean, I can check on allocating temp storage 15:38:18 for transfer 15:38:29 but you'd have to check on growing the stack as well 15:38:36 because you need to move all that temp to the stack :-P 15:38:47 I do that already 15:39:00 in that case I simply abort() 15:39:20 because no funge program will ever be coded to accept reflect on, say, 5 15:39:31 you can't know that 15:39:32 :-P 15:39:35 so normally reflecting on push is just pointless 15:39:41 and will mess up stuff even more 15:39:50 I just perror and abort 15:40:02 on stack transfer however 15:41:10 Deewiant, the thing that really confused me was valgrind's cryptic message when I overflowed stack space 15:41:24 seems clear enough to me 15:41:29 I think it is possible some kernel internals reallocated stack to make it grow 15:41:34 first time at least 15:48:34 there mine is fixed 15:48:35 hehe 15:48:37 Deewiant, ^ 15:49:13 AnMaster: ? 15:49:24 Deewiant, as in "does not crash" 15:49:35 oh and why does CCBI give such cryptic errors? 15:49:52 I /think/ it's an error thrown by the RTS 15:50:03 RTS? 15:50:10 since it's an OutOfMemoryError there's no guarantee that there's enough memory to allocate an error message 15:50:13 so it has no data 15:50:18 run-time system 15:50:20 aha 15:50:51 a lot of programs/libraries pre-allocates stuff for that in a static array 15:51:02 well there's not really much to say 15:51:14 you know it's an OOM exception since it has no msg :-) 15:52:35 and like said, I could fix CCBI (would be trivial, wrap try {} around the whole func instead of just the new stack creation bit), but I don't think there's much point 15:53:05 what should be done is checking it for every instruction 15:53:17 which would be slow 15:53:24 which would be mostly pointless 15:53:44 at this point, I defer to people: if somebody wants to use CCBI with an app using that much memory, I'll implement it 15:53:44 ah a false positive 15:53:47 but not until then :-P 15:53:59 I check if exit code is greater than 100, and not the one of alarm 15:54:09 so false positives can happen 15:54:22 -!- ehird has joined. 15:54:46 Deewiant, still a good script 15:55:18 I know, it was my idea ;-) 15:55:33 yeah but my implementation 15:55:34 ;P 15:56:36 installing realplayer on linux at the last minute is not fun 15:56:58 hurry UP you stupid computer 15:58:06 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:58:30 hello, ais523 15:58:36 hi, ehird 15:58:46 DID YOU KNOW: bbc's online radio player is hell to get working on linux 15:59:10 * ehird should probably rant about it other places than #esoteric though 15:59:11 ;) 16:01:57 Deewiant, want the script? it depends on the interpreter existing with the return code of alarm to detect "time out" 16:03:16 also I haven't tested if return codes for those are same on other systems 16:06:17 nah, I'm good as long as you test whatever crashes cfunge on CCBI as well ;-) 16:07:42 http://www.nethack.org/2008-04-01.html 16:07:48 ooh, new NH release 16:08:17 wow 16:08:24 is it at 1.0 yet 16:08:26 :p 16:08:29 or joke? 16:08:33 web integration? 16:08:33 ehird, duh it is 3.x 16:08:34 hah 16:08:35 april fools 16:08:44 yeah 16:08:54 ehird, I just opened it 16:08:56 internet jackass day is fun! 16:09:11 ehird, ah yes inspircd's one was very fun 16:09:27 http://mail.google.com/mail/help/customtime/index.html Brilliant! 16:09:28 http://www.inspircd.org/forum//showthread.php?t=2978 16:09:31 err 16:09:37 http://www.inspircd.org/forum/showthread.php?p=4972 16:09:39 I meant 16:09:47 ehird, yes and saw the Virgle thing? 16:09:53 Virgel 16:09:54 I mean 16:09:56 hmm 16:09:58 where's slashdots 16:09:59 err spelling 16:10:04 AnMaster: no i just got online 16:10:09 ehird, I don't read slashdot 16:10:13 neither do i 16:10:14 ehird, anyway google did several this year 16:10:15 except on april 1 16:10:23 ehird, Virgle was one 16:10:31 AnMaster: uuugh, i hate that inspircd community 16:10:32 'For those of you who didn't figure out already, (DUH) this is an April Fools joke :-)' 16:10:44 for everyone too retarded to be of any use to anyone, this was a joke! ha! ha! ha! 16:10:47 :D 16:11:01 ehird, you know both w00t and Brain are developers btw 16:11:11 it's still lame to point out april fools jokes :< 16:11:16 that comment wasn't there this morning though 16:11:21 and Brain should have waited 16:11:25 until tomorrow IMO 16:13:11 should've never posted, its more fun when people still don't get it days later 16:13:48 HAHA wow 16:13:50 youtube wins 16:13:54 try one of the featured videos 16:14:21 ehird, already know that 16:14:30 waiting for the RFC 16:14:37 oh joy, the rfc! 16:14:48 it may be after 12am here, but on the internets the fools have only just begun :D 16:15:00 it isn't out yet 16:15:01 sigh 16:15:04 tis apr 1 17:15:03 CEST 2008 16:15:07 already late here 16:15:07 :/ 16:15:15 16:15 16:15:21 no problem though 16:15:28 i can still enjoy the ones 16:15:39 the ones? 16:16:15 AnMaster: on the internets 16:16:57 ah 16:17:02 internets .... 16:17:03 :/ 16:17:50 hmm 16:17:55 ais523: did you see the bbcs april fool? 16:17:57 the flying penguins 16:18:08 ehird: I haven't seen any of them yet 16:18:16 but I hope that's a Linux joke 16:18:17 ais523: it was on bbc1 or something earlier today 16:18:23 ais523: and no, unfortunately 16:18:26 obviously not 16:18:30 it was on the BBC's main tv channel 16:18:31 ;p 16:19:24 ais523: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/page/item/epeng001.shtml?src=ip_potpw 16:19:51 "Sorry, this programme is only available to play in the UK (Why?)" 16:19:53 that's all? 16:19:54 ehird, ? 16:20:05 AnMaster: uh, because it's the bbc 16:20:12 so most ppl can't see it 16:20:15 legal issues etc with broadcasting 16:20:18 I read about it on another site though 16:20:20 BBC = british broadcasting corporation 16:20:25 they are a non-profit 16:20:26 ehird, I know what BBC is 16:20:29 well 16:20:30 kind of non-profit 16:20:35 a little bit is non-profit 16:20:36 it's public service yes 16:20:37 .. 16:20:37 pretending to be, at least 16:20:51 but with all the corporation on top of it i actually have no idea how you can define the BBC's status exactly 16:20:51 we got public service TV/radio in Sweden too 16:21:21 the reason being that all British people have to pay tax to the BBC to be allowed to watch their programs 16:21:25 yeah, ais523 16:21:30 you can get out of it, but only if you can prove that you don't have a television 16:21:32 ok I know how to work around that 16:21:37 tor exit node in UK 16:21:38 :) 16:21:46 AnMaster: that'll be sooo good for streaming videos.. 16:21:51 lovely and zippy and fast 16:21:54 ehird, yeah that's the downside :( 16:23:06 can you listen to bbc streaming radio outside of uk? 16:23:07 i imagine not 16:23:14 yes I think you can 16:23:17 or could at least 16:23:20 a year ago or so 16:23:40 and you could watch TV outside UK before too, at lower resolution 16:23:47 Rights agreements mean that BBC iPlayer television programmes are only available to users to download or stream (Click to Play) in the UK. However, BBC Worldwide is working on an international version, which we will make available as soon as possible. 16:23:47 16:23:47 Radio programmes are available outside the UK in addition to podcasts at http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/podcasts/directory/. Many BBC News programmes are available for viewers outside the UK at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/video_and_audio/default.stm, BBC Sport highlights are available at http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport and BBC Radio stations are available at http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/ 16:24:17 yeah it was news I watched 16:24:27 iPlayer has massive DRM, though 16:24:33 I see 16:24:38 so won't ever work on linux? 16:24:46 well, all the Linux people complained 16:25:00 so they made a 'streaming' version using Flash, which can of course be captured by tech-savvy people 16:25:09 ah 16:25:19 yeah, of course it can :) 16:25:26 but that doesn't work on the iPhone, so they also made a completely DRM-free version with a user-agent check to see if you're an iPhone 16:25:32 guess how well that secures it... 16:25:44 ais523: probably the drm was required 16:25:46 beyond their control 16:25:51 ehird: yes 16:25:55 btw: PHP is funny! "9999999999999999" == "10000000000000000", "0xa" == "1e1" 16:25:58 but they shouldn't have asked Microsoft to design it 16:26:16 ais523: meh. the flash version works ok for me 16:26:20 and i can always rip em 16:26:36 whoo, make install of libxslt fails with make -j2 16:26:36 heh 16:26:50 AnMaster: lots of things do 16:26:52 recursive make, etc 16:27:03 not like 'make' takes a long time .. 16:27:03 ehird, well I have seen recursive make that works with it 16:27:11 ehird: "0" == false == "" != "0" 16:27:18 ehird, depend on what you are building 16:27:26 ehird, say, firefox? 16:27:34 or qt? 16:27:38 AnMaster: C-INTERCAL also fails with make -j2, probably because the dependencies on header files generated by bison are slightly wrong 16:28:03 hm I wonder if I can make something not build without -j2 16:28:13 and not "work sometimes" with -j2 16:28:17 but always work with it 16:28:27 Deewiant: yeah, but ... "0xa" == "1e1" 16:28:32 AnMaster: just write the dependencies in such a way that there are hidden dependencies that are implied by the dependencies you've written, but not stated 16:28:46 ais523, yes but that could fail under -j2 too 16:28:48 ehird: 0xa==1e1 is true in C too 16:28:52 ehird: each integer in a PHP array takes 68 bytes of storage 16:28:58 ais523: not in strings 16:29:00 ais523: yeah, but these are strings. 16:29:05 Deewiant: yeah, i read reddit too ;) 16:29:11 AnMaster: sorry, I misread your question 16:29:31 Deewiant: I noticed, but string comparison of numbers is fine if you have a separate compare-as-strings operator 16:29:42 in perl, "02" == "2", but "02" ne "2" 16:29:54 ais523, so would it be possible? 16:30:06 I'm thinking 16:30:19 what about writing a hidden dependency 16:30:27 ais523: === compares type&value in php 16:30:28 but... 16:30:28 yes you will always need that 16:30:29 but having the file that's needed rmd at the end of the step 16:30:32 "0xa" == "1e1"!!!!!! 16:30:46 ais523, hm still I think order may fail 16:30:57 unless maybe build an app, and have make run it wait for a file to exist or something like that 16:30:58 so I have thing3:thing1 and thing2:thing1 16:31:21 thing3 creates thing2.h at the start of the instructions and deletes it at the end 16:31:22 ais523, still you can't know in what order they will be exectued 16:31:34 and thing2 needs thing2.h somewhere in the middle 16:31:50 ais523, hm you would still need some kind of mutex 16:32:06 you can't know for certain, but if those are the only two things that depend on thing1 and everything else depends on one of those, then make would be stupid not to put things in the order where the -j2 works 16:32:14 maybe building an app first and have that app called in both rules to sync them in some way? 16:32:24 AnMaster: named pipes 16:32:30 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:32:33 ais523, uhu? 16:32:37 have one rule write to a named pipe 16:32:41 and another rule read from it 16:32:43 a fifo? 16:32:45 yes 16:32:52 hm 16:32:54 ok 16:32:54 they'll both block until they're in sync 16:32:56 interesting 16:33:05 but without -j2 you'll get an infinite loop, because the one rule will block forever 16:33:10 yeah 16:33:23 ais523, and all package maintainers will forever curse me ;) 16:33:35 ehird: in essence, == in PHP is crap, never use it 16:33:51 Deewiant, not even when comparing numbers? 16:34:01 Deewiant: In essence, PHP is crap, never use it 16:34:05 say a=3; if ($a == 3) 16:34:14 AnMaster: you mean $a=3 16:34:17 ha! ha! ha! 16:34:21 AnMaster: only if you're 110% sure they're both numbers 16:34:22 oh 16:34:24 yes, you must prefix every variable, everywhere with $ 16:34:27 it isn't even a sigil 16:34:28 ehird, I'm not PHP programmer 16:34:28 AnMaster: but if you are, might as well use ===... 16:34:29 like % or @ 16:34:30 it's $ 16:34:33 for no reason 16:34:36 every variable must start with $ 16:34:37 Deewiant, eh ===? 16:34:38 oh 16:34:41 and variable variables! 16:34:48 AnMaster: essentially, typesafe == 16:34:50 $$foo, where $foo = 'hello', is $hello 16:34:51 :D 16:34:56 i believe they can nest 16:35:12 oh god 16:35:15 yep 16:35:18 its so funny 16:35:42 AnMaster: or rather, returns false if they're of differing types, so not really 'safe' but at least it's always right 16:35:56 hm the fuzz test isn't finding anything new any longer 16:36:22 anyway it isn't useful for fingerprints or IO 16:37:01 you can test fingerprints, too, just prepend "ASDF"4( to the program 16:37:05 oh god this REM song again 16:37:07 bloody hell 16:37:19 * ehird should shout at mplayer instead of konversation 16:37:21 probably. 16:37:21 Deewiant, true 16:37:53 Deewiant, need to know what fingerprint I want to test, not easily to do randomly though 16:38:31 Deewiant, and for IO I'm too lazy to set up a chroot for this 16:38:34 AnMaster: just run a couple (dozen/hundred/whatever) times for each print 16:38:41 hmm 16:38:45 i have a file in ~ called 1 16:38:51 another called _#84*\\1-:0\\:0\\#_5553ppppppppppppppppppppppppp 16:39:00 and one called ,,,,,[- 16:39:13 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:39:15 ehird, those latter look like funge 16:39:17 ehird: I often accidentally create files called 1 16:39:27 it's easy to type 2>1 rather than 2>&1 by mistake 16:39:37 ehird, yeah but that doesn't explain the other two 16:39:58 eh 16:39:59 ais523, ^ 16:40:18 hmm... the second one looks very like a Funge program in some ways, but the backslashes seem to imply it isn't 16:40:18 the second-last looks like funge 16:40:20 the last is brainfuck 16:40:27 yeah 16:40:41 ,,,,, isn't very useful Brainfuck anyway in most cases 16:40:46 ais523, \ exists in funge 16:40:53 and well ls may escape \ 16:40:54 iirc 16:40:56 AnMaster: always in pairs? 16:41:02 oh 16:41:09 ais523, as I said, something may have escaped it 16:41:25 what's the betting that there were < or > characters at the ends of the Brainfuck or (presumably Unefunge) programs? 16:41:28 ais523, but no, \ is used to swap top items of stack 16:41:58 ais523, for funge, why not, befunge at least 16:42:01 so yes, the second one is probably Unefunge assuming that the \ have been doubled by something 16:42:03 to wrap 16:42:15 because it would be unlikely to type Befunge in on the command line... 16:42:18 eh 16:42:20 ais523: Wow. apparently BBC Northwest rickroll'd the news. 16:42:34 that's just crazy 16:42:47 ais523, to me it looks quite like that "sucide program" someone made 16:42:51 not exactly but close 16:42:58 ie, it removed itself from memory 16:43:01 the row of ps is what makes it look like that 16:43:06 indeed 16:43:34 wow... 16:43:38 ehird, what? 16:43:39 webcomics are redirecting to each other 16:43:43 that's confusing 16:43:45 ehird, ah yes 16:43:50 xkcd and two other 16:43:51 hehe 16:43:52 xkcd.com takes 3 hops to actually get to xkcd 16:44:03 xkcd redir> questionablecontent redir> dinosaur comics redir> xkcd 16:44:13 ehird, I found out hours ago 16:44:34 * ais523 checks to see what Wikipedia are doing 16:44:36 i just got on the interwebs earlier this hour 16:44:37 :( 16:44:42 ais523, they do something? 16:44:47 haven't noticed before 16:45:10 Ima Hogg 16:45:11 lmao 16:45:11 AnMaster: generally they feature an article with the Main Page summary written to look like it's an April Fools' joke, but is actually true 16:45:11 AnMaster: featured article 16:45:18 last year they featured George Washington 16:45:27 ais523: not the president, though 16:45:29 but it was a different person with that name, not the American president 16:45:29 and? 16:45:43 jesus 16:45:46 Talk:Main_Page 16:45:48 has a notice about it 16:45:53 i hate the world :( 16:47:09 some admins are trying harder: see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Tagline&diff=next&oldid=202527747 for instance 16:47:19 for those who don't know, that line's on every page on the entire wiki 16:47:59 yeah I know 16:48:09 it's in the MediaWiki namespace after all 16:48:50 heh, the on this day is quite good as well 16:48:53 ais523: hmm 16:48:56 that revert is :( 16:49:06 there have been edit wars there all day 16:49:11 and admins are getting blocked, as usual 16:49:19 eh 16:49:19 April 1 must be the record day for admin blocks 16:49:20 what? 16:49:24 bureaucracy.. 16:49:27 oh? 16:49:29 weird 16:49:30 they're normally given an expiry time of 00:01 April 2 16:49:38 ah 16:52:38 oh yay, I Might Be Wrong 16:56:54 wow: http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2008/03/31/microsoft_india_tax_ruling/ 16:57:01 it's dated March 31, so is hopefully true 16:58:20 march 31 is popualr for april fools 16:58:21 unfortunately 16:58:29 its not like the Register is often accurate though 16:59:28 the BBC have an iPlayer thing about Rick "Roll" Astley 17:00:32 http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7320000/newsid_7323500/7323544.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&news=1&bbcws=1 17:01:46 SimonRC: apparently bbc northwest rickrolld the news 17:02:05 maybe that's it 17:02:06 um, how? 17:02:10 not watching, busy listening to the radio 17:02:17 SimonRC: um, by showing rickroll on the news 17:02:31 surely it doesn't count unless you are tricked into clicking it? 17:02:51 BTW, all YouTube's featured videos redirected to rr too 17:02:56 HAHAHA 17:02:57 on the fron page, at least 17:03:01 Now playing: 'Radio Head by Talking Heads' 17:03:05 that's just teasing 17:03:56 then there're the flying penguins... 17:04:09 including video on YouTube 17:05:12 of course, the bbc news rr is on YT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spOOo0oyM5U 17:05:31 i haven't seen the usual stupid ones yet 17:05:32 thank god 17:37:16 -!- timotiis has joined. 17:38:30 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:53:26 -!- okopol has changed nick to oklopo. 17:53:28 -!- oklopo has changed nick to oklopol. 18:10:58 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 18:11:12 hey everyone 18:11:20 hi 18:11:25 RodgerTheGreat: hi 18:11:37 hi ehird, ais523- what's up, guys? 18:11:47 ok, what I'm going to do is this: 18:12:16 C-INTERCAL 0.28 has just been released, so I'm going to announce the rival compiler CLC-INTERCAL instead 18:12:35 the latest version available at http://www.intercal.ukfsn.org/download/CLC-INTERCAL-1.-94.-2/ and claims to be dated today 18:12:42 I'm then going to let ehird announce the compiler I wrote 18:13:57 haha 18:14:09 that will be confusing :D 18:14:31 that will be my first comp.lang.intercal post 18:14:33 scary 18:14:57 oh, I thout you were just goign to announce it here 18:15:05 ah, that's a good point 18:15:11 but you've just told everyone 18:15:14 and it's actually alt.lang.intercal because nobody seriously thought the Big 8 would approve it 18:15:17 ehird: that was the joke 18:15:21 ah 18:15:22 :D 18:15:23 but I didn't say where it was 18:15:27 so it isn't really released 18:15:28 that's a good point 18:15:50 but isn't the joke kind of thin now, after me just misunderstanding it and you explaining what's funny about it? :p 18:16:22 yes 18:16:45 wait a moment 18:17:53 actually, even if you had suggested usenet, i'd have to post through google groups and that would be embarrasing ;) 18:17:59 don't think my isp offers usenet 18:18:56 C-INTERCAL is available at , , and 18:19:31 heh, did they just put it on freehsell? 18:19:31 :D 18:19:48 the changelog is at 18:19:50 ehird: yes 18:19:59 but it's nice to have multiple mirrors 18:20:00 i am fasterr! ;) 18:20:02 yes 18:20:03 it is 18:20:13 now I have to compose a witty message 18:20:29 ais523: you have donated C-INTERCAL to the gnu project 18:20:31 quoting continuation.i will probably be good 18:20:34 ehird: where? 18:20:40 ais523: i meant as a witty message 18:20:43 not really that funny though 18:21:01 hmm 18:21:04 ESR got there first: 18:21:07 " 18:21:07 Someday, maybe, this will be made part of GNU. 18:21:07 ;; But probably not unless they take many mind-eroding drugs first. 18:21:09 " 18:21:11 i'll put a README.txt on my site 18:21:18 comment in http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/ick-0.28/etc/intercal.el 18:21:22 in case anyone wonders who the hell this elliotthird guy is 18:21:30 and what he's doing hosting c-intercal expanded tarballs 18:21:51 ais523: ah :) 18:22:06 ais523: you could say that you are going to reimplement seaside in it 18:22:15 but that probably won't be familiar with most a.l.intercal people 18:22:34 maybe just something along the lines of C-INTERCAL being a pioneer in the next generation of web development as you can use continuations with them? 18:22:43 I'll say that you challenged me to write a continuation library in INTERCAL 18:22:47 and a blurb about productivity benefits over Java & COBOL ("two other well-known web languages") 18:22:48 and that I managed it in 24 hours 18:22:53 nobody will believe that 18:22:53 ais523: yes! 18:23:09 'INTERCAL is 10x more rapid than Java and COBOL, and 3x faster than Ruby.' 18:23:17 also a crap joke 18:23:21 (Ruby is slow as molasses) 18:23:25 make your own jokes 18:23:26 ;) 18:23:47 ais523: hmm, should i serve .doc as text/plain? 18:23:51 right now it's serving as a word file 18:23:54 probably 18:24:02 that extension scheme wasn't my fault 18:24:09 it's legacy stuff 18:24:17 probably dates from before Word became popular... 18:24:32 http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/ick-0.28/pit/t_tet 18:24:33 what is 'tet'? 18:24:40 not sure 18:24:48 that file has no extension 18:24:57 and is a data file either for the Intercal FFT, or for the Game of Life program 18:24:57 Content-Type: application/msword 18:24:58 i'll fix that 18:25:13 my server is ready to handle just about anything right now though 18:25:17 so feel free to post any urls publically 18:26:36 ais523: hmm 18:26:39 i can host the html documentation 18:26:40 if you want 18:27:05 that's being hosted at freeshell, but good idea 18:27:23 you'll have to regenerate it first, but doc/Makefile can do that easily enough 18:27:34 ais523: what directory name, though? 18:27:40 perhaps i should make a directory name for each release 18:27:53 http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/0.28/ick-0.28 18:27:56 http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/0.28/ick-0-28.tgz 18:28:02 http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/0.28/docs 18:28:12 decide quickly, before I finish writing this announcement! 18:28:18 ais523: haha, well 18:28:25 if you can give me a good name for a documentation url 18:28:27 without one like that 18:28:30 then i won't chang eit 18:29:02 c-intercal/doc-0.28 would be one way to do it 18:29:36 ais523: well, you decide. depends how you'd like it layed out, really 18:29:49 I don't really mind 18:30:04 ais523: yes, but there's no real distinction, and it's your compiler, so i'm going to let you decide :p 18:30:16 go for doc-0.28 then 18:30:20 okay 18:30:35 ais523: how would i go about building it without trashing the source tree? 18:31:20 easiest to copy the makefile, *.txi, and *.css from doc into a separate directory, and doing it there with make ickhtml 18:31:31 wait, you also need to copy *.pl across 18:31:43 because I use Perl to do a bit of formatting and touching-up 18:32:02 ais523: then just 'make'? 18:32:09 make ickhtml 18:32:19 there are different targets for each possible version 18:32:26 ais523: the other kinds of documentation are already in the source tree, right? 18:32:28 so i just need the html 18:32:42 ehird: only the .txt and .info are built by default 18:32:48 there's make all to generate it in all formats 18:32:57 ais523: what others are there? 18:33:03 pdf 18:33:05 and html i guess 18:33:07 PDF, info, plain text, two HTML formats 18:33:11 two? 18:33:12 ah 18:33:15 single file & multi file 18:33:19 i'll only do multi file 18:33:23 seems like the only useful one to me 18:33:43 make: *** No rule to make target `tidy.cfg', needed by `html/index.htm'. Stop. 18:33:56 copied that over too 18:33:56 that's in the dir too, I forgot it was needed 18:34:04 even though I remembered that tidy was 18:34:12 (texinfo produces lousy HTML, it badly needs the tidy) 18:34:43 ais523: i'll put it at http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/doc-0.28/html/ in case i ever need new formats 18:34:45 actually, wait 18:34:53 i doubt i'll ever publish more formats 18:34:53 so. 18:35:34 ais523: so it'll just be 18:35:36 http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/doc-0.28/ 18:35:40 OK? 18:35:41 OK 18:36:05 ok 18:36:07 have a canonical url 18:36:08 http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/doc-0.28/ 18:36:09 WITH the slash 18:36:16 since it's a directory 18:36:23 yes 18:36:31 okay 18:36:32 i think that's it 18:36:49 okies 18:36:51 now i'll announce here 18:36:54 *a-hem* 18:37:08 * Iskr claps 18:37:36 C-INTERCAL 0.28 is available at http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/ick-0-28.tgz. The changelog is at http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/ick-0.28/NEWS.txt, and documentation at http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/doc-0.28/. 18:37:57 It is also available at http://www.intercal.ukfsn.org/download/ick-0-28.tgz and http://intercal.freeshell.org/download/ick-0-28.tgz. 18:38:01 * Iskr reclaps 18:38:10 *end of release.txt 18:38:18 Iskr: i know, isn't it brilliant 18:38:41 well i wanted to ask 18:38:52 ais523: haha: 18:38:53 'RELEASE NOTES FOR THE RELEASE NOTES FOR C-INTERCAL VERSION 0.27' 18:38:53 does someone here use prolog? 18:39:01 Iskr: yeah quite a few 18:39:24 Iskr: I've read the manuals for a decades-old Prolog compiler, from which I learnt the language, but have never used it 18:39:32 #prolog channel seems dead 18:39:52 ais523: I can't wait for the continuation.i stuff 18:40:04 I bet people will think it's an infinite loop or something 18:40:16 Or something that spews garbage characters 18:40:23 But you can certainly use it as an advertising point 18:40:30 ehird: how do you suggest that I advertise it? 18:40:51 -!- Judofyr has joined. 18:40:52 for the time being I'm going to say that I wrote a continuation library in 24 hours, give lots of impossible-sounding details about how it was done which aren't very useful, and not link to it 18:40:56 ais523: INTERCAL is a tried-and-tested (since 70s), well-maintained language that can be used to rapidly develop new features like continuations 18:41:13 ehird: everyone on alt.lang.intercal know what INTERCAL is already 18:41:25 (if someone has used flora-2 or logtalk or other oo prolog please let me know) 18:41:26 ais523: yeah, but release notes often include things like that 18:41:29 but I'll paste my announcement so you can look at it and suggest improvements before sending it 18:41:32 i was just summarizing the joke 18:41:52 because most languages wouldn't let you implement continuations in them, let alone that fas 18:41:53 t 18:42:10 its a crap joke though 18:42:11 ignore me 18:42:12 :) 18:43:22 ais523: I wonder how many people have found it already 18:43:41 maybe Debian have, they have a bot watching intercal.freeshell.org for new releases 18:43:53 * SimonRC admires the new CodingHorror theme 18:43:59 SimonRC: codinghorror is a bunch of crap 18:44:01 on another note 18:44:04 i am tail -f'ing my log 18:44:09 ehird: huh? 18:44:11 91.105.71.115 =ais? 18:44:27 very nice, though visited links are rather similar in colour to plain text 18:44:28 SimonRC: never seen good content there 18:44:52 ehird: don't recognise the IP 18:44:59 I normally start with 147 18:45:12 ah 18:45:14 you have hits ther too 18:45:15 must be me 18:45:20 ehird: odd, I do find interesting stuff there 18:45:21 SimonRC: hah, the latest post is hilarious 18:45:29 jwz uses OS X on his personal computer 18:46:32 ais523: I am refreshing a.l.intercal in anticipation. ;) 18:46:40 ehird: haven't finished writing it yet 18:46:47 anything engineered, where mass-production is not a factor, will keep becoming harder and harder until humans can only just manage it 18:47:00 see: software, any buisness, spacecraft 18:48:29 ais523: ... http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.intercal/browse_thread/thread/5a0696843eeeb5b6/65b0d4a066a4c544#65b0d4a066a4c544 18:48:39 you are evil 18:48:43 hmm, maybe I am overstretching this 18:48:45 not implemented anywhere yet 18:48:51 it's still a drawing-board idea 18:49:36 -!- olsner has joined. 18:49:52 ais523: will c-intercal ever get a 1.0? 18:49:57 or is 0.99 followed by 0.100 18:50:03 ehird: it has a 1.27 18:50:09 the minor version number comes before the . 18:50:22 with the major version number afterwards 18:50:45 wow 18:51:00 ais523: i have a suggestion when you get to 9.99 18:51:18 invent a TC programming language for expressing version numbers 18:51:25 and make it fully alphanumeric 18:51:30 oh, and . 18:51:31 and - 18:51:32 so the release fater 9.99 18:51:34 migth be: 18:51:41 Da9-f.7 18:51:48 and you'd have to run the interpreter to find out what it is 18:51:57 :D 18:51:58 ehird: Debian would really like that! 18:52:08 ais523: isn't that a plus point? :D 18:52:12 they have to invent version number mangling schemes for INTERCAL as it is 18:52:21 so this will be 28:0.28-1 on Debian 18:52:37 you should see what they do to CLC-INTERCAL version numbers, though 18:52:54 ais523: when you release an Extra Special Release of some kind 18:53:00 it should be a program that outputs pi in increasing accuracy 18:53:04 so it starts 18:53:07 2,3,3.1 18:53:08 etc 18:53:14 or maybe just one that outputs pi 18:53:17 so its 18:53:19 3.14...... 18:53:21 there's a pi.i already 18:53:27 and the program never terminates because it keeps calculating 18:53:33 i propose that the program for that version should be 18:53:36 oh, for a version number 18:53:46 Da90df98asdDFa0sa.D-a048aASd-ASd--A..asdAS89d82axpA0i92 18:53:52 and then debian will kill themselves 18:53:56 because they can't mangle it sanely 18:54:04 well, they could try 3.14 18:54:13 but that would clash with a real release 18:54:17 ehird: they'll just stick a sequence number on the start 18:54:17 whose version evaluates to 3.14 18:54:22 ais523: that's true 18:54:27 ais523: but i still love my idea :D 18:54:31 hey, you've given me a great idea for an esolang 18:54:36 of course the version evaluator would be in INTERCAL 18:54:40 using C-INTERCAL extensions 18:54:42 and each version, 18:54:43 all programs and their results are stored in a central repository 18:54:47 you update it to require features from the latest one 18:54:54 so to find out the version, you have to download the tarball 18:54:56 compile it 18:54:58 compile version.i 18:55:00 then feed it through 18:55:14 to write a program, you just pick a random string of characters like Da90df98asdDFa0sa.D-a048aASd-ASd--A..asdAS89d82axpA0i92 that nobody has used yet, and define the result 18:55:39 that way programs have no resemblence at all to what they do 18:55:56 ais523: can you compose together programs? 18:55:59 then primitives are simple 18:56:07 just make a program ';' 18:56:11 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:56:12 and define the result via a primitive function 18:56:21 -!- jix has joined. 18:56:27 ehird: writing two programs in a row in INTERCAL normally has the effect of running the first and then quitting, unless they happen to have line numbers in common or use computed COME FROM 18:56:46 ah, you're talking about the new idea I had 18:56:54 the answer is maybe 18:57:59 ais523: make it graphical 18:58:05 you tag a value with a name 18:58:08 and that uploads it to the repository 18:58:14 but the value can also be the feeding of one program into another 18:58:25 so if you have an if, passing to several functions, it's a tree structure 18:58:33 and you have to come up with names for each 'if' or similar you write 18:58:40 ehird: http://pastebin.ca/966339 18:58:45 that's my draft for the announcement 18:58:56 what do you think, and have I spelt your name correctly? 18:59:18 ais523: Elliott 18:59:25 the URL does have it in it, you know 18:59:38 ais523: also, a link to the docs on mine may be helpful, since freeshell haven't updated yet 18:59:40 last i checked 18:59:47 yes 19:00:20 and about your name: I nearly always get it wrong first time for some reason 19:00:29 Everyone does :) 19:00:30 I think my fingers have memorised something else 19:00:59 elliot third 19:01:13 elliot III 19:01:24 ais523: also, you have no link to the changelog 19:01:35 which is available on mine (i think the only one, since i am the only one to expand afaik) 19:01:39 ehird: I don't normally, maybe I should 19:01:51 ais523: it's customary, but your call 19:01:53 http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/ick-0.28/NEWS.txt if so 19:01:59 actually, I will, so as to give an idea of the expanded version 19:02:06 and to give people a chance of finding continuation.i 19:02:13 Any other changes needed? 19:03:19 ais523: you might want to link to continuation.i directly 19:03:25 though it may be a bit of an 'easter egg hunt' 19:03:34 but yeah, apart from that it looks OK 19:03:36 the easter egg hunt was the whole point 19:03:40 apart from using < as the first character on a line 19:03:43 looks kind of odd 19:03:48 why? 19:04:07 Not sure. Think it's just pastebin.ca's font. 19:04:37 OK, I'll submit the message, then 19:05:40 grr, Google Groups screwed up the line breaks 19:05:40 ais523: 'thttpd/2.23beta1 26may2002' 19:05:48 funny 19:05:50 a beta 19:05:53 is the most stable web server out there 19:06:00 ais523: aww 19:06:12 ais523: you can cancel google groups posts iirc 19:06:13 if you do it fast 19:06:31 nah, I'll just post an unmangled version 19:06:58 cool 19:07:00 TWO links to my site 19:07:01 ;) 19:07:45 ais523: did you link to my html docs? 19:07:49 yes 19:07:53 ah 19:07:55 didn't read it properly 19:07:55 :) 19:08:01 yeah, i see 19:08:17 i'm surpised my server's that fast 19:08:34 its pretty darn good for $20/mo 19:08:45 256mb ram, 10gb storage, 100gb bandwidth 19:08:49 root access and all that 19:08:52 oh well, it mangled some on the correction, but they're /different/ URLs, so all the URLs have some correct version now 19:09:21 ais523: you could post it with 'Revised^3' in the title 19:09:25 that's probably not funny to intercalers though 19:09:27 the joke: 19:09:38 scheme's latest standard is Revised^6 Report On the Algorithmic Language Scheme 19:09:41 originally it want 19:09:47 Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme 19:09:50 Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme 19:09:56 but then it got too cumbersome 19:09:59 so to expand in full... 19:10:11 Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme 19:10:12 ehird: I won't try again, there'd just be too much of a chance of a further messup 19:10:51 yeah 19:11:28 ais523: maybe you should tell the debian people? 19:11:32 might speed up the flow of versions 19:11:50 ehird: as I said, they have a bot watching intercal.freeshell.org for new versions 19:11:56 ah 19:11:57 ooh 19:12:00 so generally you only have to tell them if you change the version number scheme 19:12:01 someone on Fedora just requested my site 19:12:07 not me 19:12:20 yeah 19:12:23 think it's an a.l.intercal 19:12:24 you have tail -f on the logs, presumably 19:12:27 yep 19:12:28 :D 19:12:40 unlikely that i'll get a flood of traffic though 19:13:30 speaking of which 19:13:34 it'd be helpful if I installed ick myself.. 19:13:34 :D 19:13:42 well, i have an EXCELLENT place to download it from.. 19:15:49 ais523: MAJOR BUG 19:15:50 ./config.sh: 910: Syntax error: "(" unexpected (expecting "fi") 19:16:01 oh no 19:16:05 let me try over here 19:16:30 works fine for me 19:16:42 and I generated it using the normal methods 19:16:47 what shell are you using, and what OS? 19:17:00 ais523: os - ubuntu 7.10 19:17:01 shell - bash 19:17:05 all i did was untar 19:17:05 so am I 19:17:07 then ./config.sh 19:17:16 and that's all I did too, on the exact same file 19:17:17 ais523, link so I can try it? 19:17:29 AnMaster: my server has it 19:17:34 ehird, and where si that? 19:17:35 http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/ick-0-28.tgz 19:17:36 is* 19:17:38 that's where 19:17:45 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Excess Flood). 19:18:01 ehird: there isn't a ( on line 910 19:18:23 INFODIRFILE=(irrelevant) 19:18:24 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 19:18:25 the next line 19:18:34 echo "configure: warning: Could not find Info directory file, set infodirfile in the Makefile by hand" 1>&2 19:18:38 else 19:18:42 echo "$ac_t""$INFODIRFILE" 1>&6 19:18:42 fi 19:18:42 else 19:18:42 INFODIRFILE=(irrelevant) 19:18:42 fi 19:18:42 relevant context 19:18:49 yes, there's a ( on line 911 19:18:55 so, what's up?! 19:18:56 but then why would it report a bug on 910 19:19:11 ais523, is config.sh configure? 19:19:15 by autotools? 19:19:19 yes 19:19:25 configure generated by autoconf version 2.13 19:19:26 old 19:19:31 AnMaster: boo hoo 19:19:39 AnMaster: but does i twork for you? 19:19:40 autoconf-2.61 is what I got locally 19:19:51 ais523: because shlels often get that wrong 19:19:52 ehird: I just downloaded it from your server a second time, untarred, cd and config.sh, and it worked 19:20:03 sdfsddfgdfghfh 19:20:03 ./config.sh --prefix=$HOME/local/ick works yes 19:20:07 ehird, ^ 19:20:15 maybe it's just be 19:20:21 GNU bash, version 3.2.25(1)-release (i486-pc-linux-gnu) 19:20:24 ehird: are you sure you were using bash? The default /bin/sh on Ubuntu is dash 19:20:31 GNU bash, version 3.2.17(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) 19:20:38 ehird, ah yes that may be it 19:20:40 ais523: ahh 19:20:44 another ubuntu mess up 19:20:45 Try bash ./config.sh 19:20:47 ubuntu is crap indeed 19:20:48 manually change config.sh 19:20:53 to /usr/bin/env bash 19:20:59 that's my suggestion 19:21:00 I set it to bash wonce I discovered dash was buggy 19:21:01 (for the next release) 19:21:12 AnMaster: ehm, depending on bash and saying '/bin/sh' is what is crap 19:21:15 s/w// 19:21:21 ehird: I don't depend on bash 19:21:24 ais523, file a bug for ubuntu or autoconf then? 19:21:26 it works on other shells too 19:21:27 ais523: ok, just non-dash 19:21:28 ? 19:21:36 add a check at the start 19:21:37 I know dash is buggy, but am not sure how 19:21:45 ais523: shouldn't be hard 19:21:47 ais523, file a bug against ubuntu! 19:21:49 check $SHELL for 'dash' 19:21:52 it went and added -e on lots of lines at random when I used it for a makefile elsewhere 19:22:00 and say 'please use a non-dash shell' and exit if it is 19:22:03 and I haven't pinned down the bug 19:22:07 ais523, 19:22:08 $ make install 19:22:08 cp bin/ick bin/convickt /home/arvid/local/ick/bin 19:22:08 cp: target `/home/arvid/local/ick/bin' is not a directory 19:22:08 make: *** [install-common] Error 1 19:22:12 mkdir first.... 19:22:25 ais523: '-DICK_HAVE_' is that.. intentional? :p 19:22:30 ehird: yes 19:22:37 not the -DICK, sorry 19:22:42 :p 19:22:44 I thought you were asking if I wrote that line in the first place 19:22:45 software naming 19:22:46 what fun 19:22:49 ais523, well your make install is broken 19:22:57 liboser.so 19:22:58 -loser 19:23:01 liburk.so -lurk 19:23:07 AnMaster: it expects the --prefix to be layed out like a typical /usr 19:23:15 so it needs to have a /bin, /share subdir, etc 19:23:18 gnu's libiberty is -liberty 19:23:23 ais523, all other software seem to be able to create those if missing 19:23:23 how about a libick that requires ICK to be defined :P 19:23:29 ais523, so I'd suggest it is a bug 19:23:33 AnMaster: I wasn't aware that people did that elsewhere 19:23:39 so I agree that it's a bug 19:23:39 olsner: -lick 19:23:42 ais523, well automake does iirc 19:23:44 a simple mkdir -p should sort it 19:23:46 ehird: -DICK 19:23:48 and cmake does and so on 19:23:57 ais523, except -p may not work on really old systems iircv 19:23:58 olsner: well, yeah 19:23:59 iirc* 19:24:03 olsner: but ick is the intercal compiler 19:24:05 AnMaster: yes, but I use it anyway 19:24:07 and it already defines stuff starting with ICK 19:24:11 so that joke is already done :) 19:24:18 -DICKDATADIR etc 19:24:24 I use ICK_ and ick_ as name-mangling prefixes for all externally-visible symbols in this version 19:24:26 beh 19:24:33 sh -c "(test -f /home/arvid/local/ick/info/ick.info.gz && install-info --quiet --dir-file=/usr/share/info/dir /home/arvid/local/ick/info/ick.info.gz) || true" 19:24:34 /usr/share/info/dir: Permission denied 19:24:37 ais523, another one 19:24:48 AnMaster: uhh 19:24:49 you need to sudo 19:24:51 you don't use --prefix at all? 19:24:55 or using sh 19:24:56 ah, a --prefix bug 19:24:57 oh 19:24:58 i see 19:24:59 ehird, I'm installing in my home dir using --prefix 19:24:59 yeah 19:25:00 ... 19:25:00 that's a bug 19:25:07 ais523: I'm happy to host 1.28 :p 19:25:20 that bug was in 0.27, anyway 19:25:28 ais523, oh and tell me wtf is this meant for: 19:25:29 sh -c ": -q" 19:25:30 it's just nobody caught it before 19:25:38 AnMaster: it does nothing 19:25:42 ais523, why? 19:25:45 it's a nice smiley 19:25:46 it would have updated the man database on a system that needed it 19:25:53 oh I see 19:25:59 but autoconf noticed that youre system didn't need that, and commented out the line 19:26:05 s/youre/you're/ 19:26:10 ah yes 19:26:12 well, coloned it out 19:26:35 unlambda.i is weird 19:26:38 ' PLEASE NOTE THAT IMMORTALITY IS TREASON' 19:26:41 ais523, what is convickt for? 19:26:53 AnMaster: converting INTERCAL files between different character sets and syntaxes 19:27:03 because some operators are written differently in different versions 19:27:04 ah 19:27:05 I see 19:27:08 also: 19:27:10 -b :reduce the probability of IE774 to zero 19:27:11 eh? 19:27:21 that's a typo, it should say E774 19:27:22 convickt.c -- translate between various INTERCAL formats 19:27:28 there's a random bug in the compiler 19:27:35 AnMaster: intercal specifies a random bug in the compiler 19:27:42 I see... 19:27:47 by N probability, the E774 will be trigggered 19:27:47 and what is that random bug? 19:27:55 AnMaster: random bug = E774 is triggered 19:27:59 I see 19:28:04 so basicall ify ou don't use -b it might randomly fail to compile 19:28:06 with E774 19:28:08 which is the random bug error 19:28:13 ehird: not fail to compile, E774 is runtime 19:28:26 ah, yes 19:28:30 $ bin/ick -b pit/continuation.i 19:28:30 ICL555I FLOW DIAGRAM IS EXCESSIVELY CONNECTED 19:28:36 ais523, you wrote the code, explain 19:28:43 you need to give -am as command-line options 19:28:50 i get 19:28:51 ICL017I DO YOU EXPECT ME TO FIGURE THIS OUT? 19:28:51 ON THE WAY TO 20 19:28:52 which is funnier 19:29:04 ehird: that's bad 19:29:06 ais523: -am is not valid 19:29:08 :\ 19:29:13 are you sure you're compiling with 0.28 and not 0.27? 19:29:21 it would have produced E017 on that file 19:29:23 ais523, god, it took over 10 seconds for ick to run on that file?! 19:29:26 but E017 has been toned down a lot 19:29:29 oh duh 19:29:31 i didn't make install 19:29:32 heh 19:29:41 AnMaster: most of it's gcc 19:29:45 yeah 19:29:46 gcc is slow 19:29:50 and the c files are huge 19:29:53 ah 19:29:55 AnMaster: try compiling with -c 19:29:57 that'll dump the c file 19:29:59 and you can take a look at it 19:30:03 that should help you understand ;) 19:30:05 ehird, I don't want to 19:30:12 or -g, which will dump the C file but complete the compilation anyway 19:30:14 ICL633I PROGRAM FELL OFF THE EDGE ? 19:30:21 ie how do I use ./continuation 19:30:32 you just use ./continuation, I thought, it's a test program 19:30:42 $ ./continuation 19:30:43 ICL633I PROGRAM FELL OFF THE EDGE 19:30:43 ON THE WAY TO THE NEW WORLD 19:30:43 CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT 19:30:45 really? 19:30:50 it should just output a bunch of roman numerals 19:30:55 it outputs that 19:31:00 hmm... maybe the test program was deleted by mistake 19:31:07 what's the very last line of your continuation.i? 19:31:20 DO RESUME #1 19:31:22 ais523: its fine for me 19:31:22 i don't really know anything about intercal, how did you make continuations? 19:31:24 :/ 19:31:34 ais523, ^ 19:31:39 oklopol: he wrote stuff that uses multithreading to do them 19:31:47 and used his compiler's CREATE to define syntax for them 19:31:55 oh 19:31:58 AnMaster: there shouldn't be an error 633 if there's a RESUME #1 as the last line 19:31:59 extendable syntax 19:32:09 oklopol: he just implemented it 19:32:09 ais523, well explain it then? 19:32:09 i really should learn it 19:32:10 that doesn't make any sense 19:32:23 AnMaster: uh you effed up 19:32:25 try redownloading 19:32:27 'cause it works for me 19:32:34 ehird, you got x86_64? 19:32:47 * AnMaster runs that platform 19:32:53 no idea if that would cause an issue 19:33:13 AnMaster: it wouldn't 19:33:17 just try redownloading 19:33:26 ehird, can I get md5sum for the tarball 19:33:27 AnMaster: use ick -abgm continuation.i, then tell me what's on line 4489 of continuation.c 19:33:49 bin/ick -abgm pit/continuation.i to correct for paths 19:33:51 67459c1a46e016d25de7c30968b676d7 19:33:53 md5sum 19:33:56 I assume that would not be an issue 19:34:03 no 19:34:06 oh, i should pubilsh .sum 19:34:08 shouldn't i? 19:34:11 $ md5sum ../ick-0-28.tgz 19:34:11 67459c1a46e016d25de7c30968b676d7 ../ick-0-28.tgz 19:34:17 ehird, same here 19:34:20 ick-0-28.sum is the filename to use right 19:34:21 so not a download error 19:34:31 AnMaster: beats me 19:34:39 ais523, what line did you say? 19:34:42 4489 19:34:58 ick_skipto = ick_resume(0x1); goto top; 19:35:00 should i publish an md5sum? 19:35:07 OK, that's correct 19:35:25 ais523, want md5sum for the c file? 19:35:36 no, I've just had another idea 19:35:43 oh? 19:35:54 nobody? :p 19:36:00 maybe the kill-all-threads code is being invoked early and turning off the RESUME 19:36:07 ehird: I thought it was .md5, but am not sure 19:36:22 normally the md5 sums are in the release message, not in the directory itself 19:36:27 ais523: ick-0-28.md5 19:36:29 67459c1a46e016d25de7c30968b676d7 ick-0-28.tgz 19:36:30 .md5 is the usual 19:36:33 and i think lots of mirrors include it 19:36:44 I think 19:36:51 yes, it's worthwhile having it in the same directory as that's where people will check 19:36:53 AnMaster: so 'ick-0-28.md5'? 19:36:56 ais523, well I didn't understand the " maybe the kill-all-threads code is being invoked early and turning off the RESUME" 19:36:58 ehird, not sure 19:37:22 AnMaster: I'm trying to figure out how the hell that code managed to error out with 663 when it had a RESUME as the last line 19:37:37 the only thing I can think of is that the RESUME got ABSTAINed from by mistake 19:37:45 ehird, gentoo use .DIGESTS 19:37:46 AnMaster: compile with -abgmw 19:37:50 http://ftp.ing.umu.se/linux/gentoo/releases/amd64/current/stages/stage1-amd64-2007.0.tar.bz2.DIGESTS 19:37:52 as in that 19:38:11 ais523, and then? 19:38:20 then run the code with +printflow (as in ./continuation +printflow), capture stdout, and paste it somewhere 19:38:28 I'll compare it to what I get over here 19:38:41 ais523: http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/ick-0-28.md5 19:38:47 feel free to post that url somewhere 19:38:49 if you want 19:39:01 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/uc3S5q93.html 19:39:02 ehird: it's pretty obvious, I think just having it in the same directory will be enough 19:39:06 okay 19:39:10 should I do CURRENT-doc? 19:39:13 and CURRENT.md5 19:39:23 i guess the advantage of version directories 19:39:27 is that i could just have one CURRENT 19:39:28 to the directory 19:39:31 ehird, hm http://ftp.ing.umu.se/linux/gentoo/releases/amd64/current/stages/stage1-amd64-2007.0.tar.bz2.DIGESTS 19:39:32 and then collect all of these inside it 19:40:22 ais523, any idea? 19:40:35 AnMaster: I'm comparing the files at the moment 19:41:01 ais523, what gcc options do you use? 19:41:03 ais523: however i won't switch to a different format until several releases forward 19:41:08 and even then i'll maintain redirects 19:41:11 because I tried to compile the c file by hand 19:41:12 for backwards compatibility 19:41:14 it didn't work 19:41:21 AnMaster: a bunch of -D and -I, -o and -O2 19:41:23 AnMaster: he links with his cmpiler 19:41:30 ok forget it then 19:41:40 AnMaster: the very top of the C file gives the compile command you need to use 19:41:40 ais523, was thinking of testing -m32 19:41:52 oh, and -l as well 19:41:59 because it links against the INTERCAL runtime library 19:42:03 ah then it won't work 19:42:10 can't link 32-bit and 64-bit objects 19:42:49 AnMaster: compile ick with -m32 19:42:56 ehird, too much work 19:43:05 $ echo $CFLAGS 19:43:05 -pipe -march=k8 -O2 -msse3 19:43:06 btw 19:43:07 sane ones 19:43:14 oh 19:43:16 undo that 19:43:18 while compiling ick 19:43:20 undo what? 19:43:21 actualy 19:43:24 $CFLAGS is a dumb idea 19:43:28 not really 19:43:30 projects require wildly different stuff 19:43:37 setting it is making far too many assumptions 19:43:45 i suggest trying CFLAGS='' make clean all 19:44:06 ehird, it still uses those btw 19:45:42 AnMaster: I'm pretty confused at this point 19:46:01 the two programs ran exactly the same, until your program just errored out with E663 at random 19:46:12 despite the two programs doing the same thing up to that point 19:46:28 the only thing that stands out about that point was that it was the first place where I access a function pointer 19:46:49 * ais523 checks something 19:46:56 ais523, want me to pastebin the C file? 19:47:10 ahh wait, ais523 19:47:11 AnMaster: no, I'm pretty sure it's identical to mine 19:47:16 AnMaster uses stack protection and stuff 19:47:22 maybe the function pointer was on the stack or.. i don't know 19:47:23 yes 19:47:26 I got a hardened system 19:47:30 using PaX and so on 19:47:45 ehird: a function pointer on the stack should still work, though 19:47:52 as for function pointer on stack it would still work 19:47:56 but I'm wondering if the function's prototype was accidentally wrong 19:48:06 ais523, so want the c file? 19:48:07 which is to say: AnMaster prefers the silly comfort of non-executable stack in favour of programs that work 19:48:21 ehird, very few programs fail 19:48:29 AnMaster: just tell me its md5 sum, and I'll compare it to the one I have over here 19:48:49 ais523, the first line will differ as it contains "-I/home/arvid/local/ick/include/ick-0.28" 19:48:55 so I can't see how that would work 19:48:59 AnMaster: remove the first line 19:49:00 oh, of course 19:49:05 might help 19:49:17 given that the lines far down the file were the same, I suspect the compiler produced the same output 19:49:29 so I remove the first line? 19:49:44 with first line removed: 43410b9d29f3e79ce17b80ff1dc972a1 19:50:42 it differs, pasting the .c file may be useful 19:50:56 AnMaster: what is sizeof(int) on x86_64? 19:50:58 http://rafb.net/p/1q4ZNK43.html 19:51:01 ais523, it is 4 19:51:07 long and long long are both 8 19:51:16 size_t and void* are also 8 19:51:19 OK, so that isn't the problem 19:51:34 I just noticed a typedef unsigned int ick_type32; that someone else had written 19:51:36 ais523, see the paste 19:51:40 debugging intercal compilers is so exciting 19:51:43 ais523, use int32_t 19:51:49 ehird, hahahr 19:51:53 woah 19:51:54 googlebot 19:51:55 on my site? 19:51:57 :O 19:52:01 thanx google groups 19:52:04 but i don't have content yet 19:52:09 i really should have put my site up before ;) 19:52:20 AnMaster: I know why it was different, the second line has the directory name of the file in 19:52:23 hahah wow 19:52:26 it's going to my dead links 19:52:29 as does the last one 19:52:35 ais523, ah ok 19:52:39 ais523, otherwise the same? 19:52:44 I did run from top directory yes 19:52:50 AnMaster: I think so 19:53:03 there are other things that differ to, as it uses randomish numbers for the names of function pointers 19:53:03 ais523, otherwise no differences? 19:53:13 ah 19:53:43 ais523: non-deterministic compiler output 19:53:44 I love you 19:53:45 :D 19:54:05 ehird: the numbers are actually pointers returned from malloc and written as hex 19:54:16 ew 19:54:19 ewwwwwwww 19:54:20 I could explain why if you wanted 19:54:43 brilliant 19:54:46 ais523, want the binary then? 19:54:48 AnMaster: why say 'ew' it's INTERCAL 19:54:49 jez 19:54:51 *jeez 19:54:55 AnMaster: I couldn't run it over here 19:54:58 I'm only on x86 19:55:04 ais523, oh and those pointer names? 19:55:14 are they cast to 32-bit? 19:55:22 because they look a bit short for being 64-bit ones 19:55:28 they're cast to unsigned long IIRC 19:55:38 ais523, size_t is the correct one 19:55:56 actually, intptr_t is the correct one, but it's C99 19:55:58 [u]intptr_t 19:56:10 hm 19:56:18 and most compilers don't have a printf size specifier for it 19:56:19 yeah indeed 19:56:28 ais523, I'm quite certain gcc does 19:56:35 ick_lose(IE000, 121, "PLEASE NOTE This double assignment is actually correct,\n\ 19:56:35 because :1602 is overloaded."); 19:56:36 huh 19:56:44 but pointer values tend to be 'small' for user programs on x86_64 19:56:46 why is a comment in the generated file? 19:56:57 AnMaster: in case it was execute 19:57:01 s/execute/executed/ 19:57:05 *blink* 19:57:08 there are no 'comments' in INTERCAL 19:57:16 but syntax errors happen at runtime, as E000 19:57:17 just invalid statements 19:57:20 that you make sure not to be executed 19:57:21 :) 19:57:28 god 19:57:36 so you write PLEASE NOT at the start and then they are ignored by default 19:57:41 AnMaster: it's INTERCAL, are you expecting it to be an elegant amazing language? 19:57:49 if you write PLEASE REINSTATE COMMENTS then your program will crash the next time it reaches a comment 19:58:01 no. I'm just amazed it is so silly 19:58:23 I thought you were complaining about what I put in the comment, which is also somewhat silly 19:58:26 ais523, oh and why pit and not examples 19:58:29 intercal is elegant for very small values of elegance 19:58:44 AnMaster: not entirely sure, that predates me by years 19:59:26 hm 19:59:29 hmm, so PLEASE NOTE in the "comment" is actually PLEASE NOT followed by an E? 19:59:33 olsner: yes 19:59:34 ais523, ok so got any idea what happened? 19:59:36 it's idiomatic 19:59:41 AnMaster: not yet 20:00:30 actually, that *is* kind of elegant 20:02:36 AnMaster: what's confusing me now is that for a PROGRAM FELL OFF THE EDGE is basically impossible to get when you're using the standard library (as continuation.i does), because it's appended to the program 20:02:45 and E663 is caused by falling off the end of the program 20:03:01 ais523, no clue then 20:03:04 falling off the program when the standard library is there gives you E000 PLEASE KNOCK BEFORE ENTERING intstead 20:03:11 ais523, beer.i example work 20:04:02 life2.i works 20:04:12 AnMaster: comment out line 33 of continuation.i by changing CREATE to DON'T CREATE 20:04:13 life.i is just odd not sure if it works 20:04:15 what happens then? 20:04:53 ICL777I A SOURCE IS A SOURCE, OF COURSE, OF COURSE 20:04:54 ON THE WAY TO 1 20:04:54 CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT 20:04:55 ??+ 20:04:55 ???? 20:04:59 did not compile 20:05:02 AnMaster: that means you wrote the wrong filename 20:05:06 ah thank you 20:05:10 that's 'Cannot read input file' in INTERCAL-speak 20:05:17 I see 20:05:26 ais523, is there a wimp mode for errors? 20:05:27 you must resubnit 20:05:38 AnMaster: no, but they're explained in plain language in the documentation 20:05:45 Deewiant: that typo's been preserved since 1972 20:05:50 ais523, still ICL633I PROGRAM FELL OFF THE EDGE 20:05:53 ais523: yes, I know :-) 20:06:09 ais523, assuming it did compile as well as create the C file? 20:06:17 when doing: 20:06:18 ../bin/ick -abgmw continuation.i 20:06:19 ? 20:06:22 AnMaster: yews 20:06:51 ais523, it did it seems 20:06:51 AnMaster: what happens when you delete lines 256 to 268 inclusive, and then try running again? 20:07:18 PLEASE DO REINSTATE (8205) AGAIN 20:07:18 to 20:07:19 PLEASE GIVE UP 20:07:20 ? 20:07:27 yes 20:07:46 same error 20:07:50 ??? 20:07:51 but compiled WAY faster 20:08:16 ais523, unless ick decided to not overwrite file if it existed? 20:08:24 AnMaster: it does overwrite existing files 20:08:29 good 20:08:34 can't be sure with intercal 20:08:37 you could delete the executable and .c and try again to check if that's the problem 20:09:03 no indeed not the issue 20:09:43 do you have gdb? 20:09:54 of course I do 20:10:01 try looking at the C file for the line where that error happens 20:10:11 (search for the string IE663) 20:10:22 then putting a breakpoint on it in gdb 20:10:35 (the -g option makes the output debuggable, for certain values of 'debuggable') 20:10:40 string "IE663" not found? 20:10:56 it should be near the bottom of main() 20:11:02 oh, and no quotes 20:11:08 it's a #defined constant 20:11:22 I didn't have quotes 20:11:30 kate had in "not found" message 20:11:34 ais523: he's deleted the lines 20:11:35 remember? 20:11:38 and no it isn't in main() 20:11:44 ehird: that wasn't in the deleted lines 20:12:00 AnMaster: what's the last occurence of ick_lose 20:12:09 192.139.27.18 - - [01/Apr/2008:19:06:01 +0000] "GET /mirror/c-intercal/ick-0.28/ HTTP/1.0" 200 50000 "http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.intercal/browse_thread/thread/9e9ad7d6875e9582/d930aa96e48e2f11" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET " 20:12:12 a real person 20:12:18 unfortunately their software sucks 20:12:19 but \o/ 20:12:24 IE6? 20:12:25 ais523, in ick_os687760 20:12:27 not me, then 20:12:29 ick_lose(IE277, ick_lineno, (char*) NULL); 20:12:33 that is the last in the file 20:12:35 AnMaster: what's the last occurence inside main? 20:12:49 I forgot about the errors about assigning to constants when I asked that 20:12:58 ais523, there are none? 20:13:15 and yet you're still getting error 663 when you run? 20:13:17 or do you mean ick_main ? 20:13:23 instead of main()? 20:13:32 is there an ick_main? 20:13:38 ICK_EC_FUNC_START(ick_main) 20:13:41 is there at least 20:13:45 AnMaster: that's #ifdeffed out 20:13:54 that's why I forgot about it 20:14:00 ais523, maybe, kate fails at the complexities of that file 20:14:23 OK, inside what appears to be ick_main due to kate not understanding #ifdef 20:14:48 ais523, it does handle #ifdef 20:14:55 just not that complex huge C file you got 20:15:13 if you paste your new version, I'll take a look and tell you which line I'm talking about 20:15:27 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/9rIGxf57.html 20:15:34 yeah I can't see where your ick_main ends 20:15:52 line 3824 20:15:57 sorry about the indentation 20:16:13 (that's the line to put a breakpoint on) 20:16:14 you said IE663 not IE633 20:16:17 (search for the string IE663) 20:16:22 ah 20:16:37 I must have remembered it incorrectly 20:16:50 Breakpoint 1, main (argc=, argv=0x401fb0) at continuation.c:3824 20:16:50 3824 ick_lose(IE633, 575, (char *)0); 20:16:54 right? 20:16:57 now what? 20:17:05 what does a backtrace say? 20:17:13 (gdb) bt 20:17:13 #0 main (argc=, argv=0x401fb0) at continuation.c:3824 20:17:19 and what's the value of the ick_next array? 20:17:20 as it is in main, what else *could* it say? 20:17:25 AnMaster: you'd be surprised 20:17:31 (gdb) print ick_next 20:17:32 $1 = (unsigned int *) 0x630320 20:17:38 (gdb) print *ick_next 20:17:38 $2 = 166 20:17:43 seems reasonable 20:17:57 the abstain status of the line before will be useful 20:17:58 what next? 20:18:06 ais523, how do I get that ... 20:18:07 wait a moment while I figure out what variable it is 20:18:22 you know, why not write a intercal debugger? 20:18:32 ick_abstained[464] 20:18:39 AnMaster: I did, but it can't handle the continuations code 20:18:48 (gdb) print ick_abstained[464] 20:18:48 $3 = 0 20:18:52 in much the same way that gdb can't handle longjmp 20:19:05 and longjmp *is* evil 20:19:24 I know, that's why I use it 20:19:29 -_- 20:19:56 OK, so the issue is that the if immediately above where you are ran 20:19:59 and ends with a goto 20:20:07 so there's no way that control could have reached that line 20:20:19 um 20:20:22 what's ick_lineno, by the way? 20:20:31 52 20:20:56 also telling me what the issue is won't help, 1) I do know C, but not this autogenerated *MESS* 2) I don't know intercal 20:21:15 I will be happy to run commands as long as they aren't along the lines of rm -rf / 20:21:48 you know enough C to see that switch(...){... if(1){... goto x} /* no labels here */} /*error*/ shouldn't reach the error line 20:21:57 ah, except if the switch finds no labels 20:22:08 I forgot to put an erroring default() in there as a paranoia check 20:22:12 what's the value of ick_skipto? 20:22:24 (gdb) print ick_skipto 20:22:24 $5 = 4294901750 20:22:38 that explains what's happened 20:22:46 well why didn't it fail for you then? 20:22:48 ais523: how come only AnMaster has the problem? 20:22:49 a negative number has been stored in an unsigned 32-bit integer 20:22:54 64-bit overf- 20:22:55 ah 20:22:58 and then assigned to a signed 64-bit integer 20:23:01 I wrote an implementation of MISC at least a year ago and never published it - it's still marked as unimplemented on the wiki :P 20:23:01 I see 20:23:02 ahaaaaaaa 20:23:07 and so has ended up with the wrong value 20:23:14 ais523, so you are broken on 64-bit? 20:23:15 GregorR: JSMMIX going anywhere? 20:23:21 GregorR, what is MISC? 20:23:24 AnMaster: presumably, but only very slightly 20:23:29 ais523: am I about to have to upload 1.28? ) 20:23:30 *;) 20:23:34 ais523, hope you can make a patch soon 20:23:37 AnMaster: A concrete OISC design, see wiki. 20:23:38 ehird: I'll collect some bugfixes soon 20:23:49 ehird: It's so slow it became insufferable. 20:23:54 AnMaster: it'll be a one-liner for that particular bug 20:24:11 ais523, ok, where should I change a line? 20:24:21 I'm trying to find it at the moment 20:24:55 line 89 of ick-wrap.c 20:25:00 cast ick_skipto to (int) 20:25:27 $ find . -iname ick-wrap.c 20:25:27 ./lib/ick-wrap.c 20:25:27 ./src/ick-wrap.c 20:25:29 which one? 20:25:34 the one in src 20:25:39 the one in lib is a temporary copy 20:25:45 which will be copied over by the makefile 20:25:53 GregorR: :( 20:26:16 GregorR: which instruction does it use? 20:26:26 ais523, oh and consider running astyle or some such tool to clean up your indention 20:26:34 AnMaster: I have considered it 20:26:38 { 20:26:39 case 0: 20:26:39 $G 20:26:39 } 20:26:41 the rest are spaces 20:26:48 that is just fuubared 20:27:01 also wtf "$G"? 20:27:02 I love how AnMaster always complains about style in possibl ythe most hacky, ugly language in existance 20:27:03 AnMaster: the generated code is mostly inside strings in feh2.c 20:27:06 making it hard to indent 20:27:09 'Your *C* contains *tabs*!' 20:27:19 AnMaster: its the SKELETON... $G is a placeholder 20:27:22 and that code is C plus placeholders for 'compiler generate things here' 20:27:26 ehird, either tabs or spaces 20:27:29 but not a MIX 20:27:36 ehird: it isn't particularly consistent 20:27:37 I use pure tabs for indention myself 20:27:38 AnMaster: boo hoo 20:27:46 I'll have to try to get the newlines fixed, first 20:27:53 ais523, I got a script for such 20:27:58 only once I've done that will the start-of-line indentation work better 20:28:00 i don't see a problem really. 20:28:05 and yes, I know I could just run the output through indent 20:28:16 ais523, can't really pastebin it as it contains a literal CR to be able to remove them 20:28:18 but as it's only an intermediate file I don't see what the point is 20:28:24 I'll upload it somewhere 20:28:28 ais523, it uses ed 20:28:48 if I'm going to regularise .c output, I'll write my own program 20:28:57 ais523, oh and still that error 20:28:58 because things like {;} aren't particularly useful in real life 20:29:01 did a make clean all 20:29:13 AnMaster: what's the value of ick_skipto this time? 20:29:21 a sec 20:29:31 ais523, I restored original file 20:29:36 so where should I break then? 20:29:49 on the E633 line 20:30:08 odd still 4498 20:30:28 $1 = 4294901748 20:30:29 still that 20:30:44 * AnMaster tries rebuilding again 20:30:58 AnMaster: but that seems reasonable based on what the patch does 20:30:59 maybe I didn't make install 20:31:03 what's (int)ick_skipto? 20:31:15 oh yes I forgot make install 20:31:17 that's all 20:31:23 working now? 20:31:27 ais523, assume so 20:31:28 not sure 20:31:31 I 20:31:32 III 20:31:32 II 20:31:34 is how it looks 20:31:38 yes, that's right 20:31:39 with blank lines in between 20:31:43 so 20:31:45 what was the problem? 20:31:49 ais523, ok what does it *mean* 20:31:52 sj 20:31:54 AnMaster: that's to give space for the overbars if they're needed 20:31:54 i see 20:31:55 *ah 20:31:59 AnMaster: it's just a simple test program 20:32:10 overbars? 20:32:11 the numbers are trace output so you can see it working 20:32:12 ??????????????? 20:32:17 AnMaster: for roman numerals over 1000 20:32:28 hm you just do MMM then? 20:32:30 iirc? 20:32:31 e.g. 5000 is V with a bar over it 20:32:33 AnMaster: intercals standard output is in roman numerals 20:32:58 ais523, sure that is the format used by Romans? 20:33:03 AnMaster: it isn't 20:33:14 INTERCAL uses lowercase for numerals like v which means 5000000 20:33:16 also why does pow not do ANYTHING? 20:33:21 it's known as 'butchered roman numerals' 20:33:30 AnMaster: which pow? 20:33:35 pow.i 20:33:37 from pit 20:33:45 is there any other? 20:34:00 I assumed you meant the C function, and was confused 20:34:03 or am I supposed to enter something? if yes, what? 20:34:24 a numer 20:34:27 s/numer/number/ 20:34:29 AnMaster: note 20:34:31 you must enter it in digits 20:34:31 spell it out as digits 20:34:32 like this 20:34:36 e.g. for 123, type ONE TWO THREE 20:34:37 THREE FOUR ZERO ZERO TWO 20:34:39 heh 20:34:43 (34002) 20:34:45 so ONE NINE? 20:34:48 yes 20:34:48 or NINER? 20:34:56 considering what befunge call 9 20:35:03 ais523, yes to which? 20:35:10 ais523: It's subtract-and-branch-if-negative 20:35:10 AnMaster: either 20:35:14 ais523, I see 20:35:21 ais523, err 20:35:22 ehird: I will gladly hand you the reigns if you want to continue work on JSMMIX :P 20:35:23 ICL000I (1999) DOUBLE OR SINGLE PRECISION OVERFLOW 20:35:23 ON THE WAY TO 66 20:35:23 CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT 20:35:28 GregorR: aieeee 20:35:29 AnMaster: try a smaller number, then 20:35:29 ais523, after entering ONE TWO 20:35:33 so 12 20:35:35 not large 20:35:46 yes, but I'm not entirely sure what that program does 20:35:49 ais523, it just runs on and on? 20:36:12 well, it'll take me a few hours to figure out what it does from the source 20:36:15 ICL129I PROGRAM HAS GOTTEN LOST 20:36:17 ais523, ?????????? 20:36:19 I didn't write all or even most of the programs there 20:36:28 AnMaster: which program? 20:36:30 $ ../bin/ick -b flonck.i 20:36:31 that 20:36:42 it needs lib/floatlib.i appended to it 20:37:00 same error 20:37:02 it says that in its docs, presumably assuming that people will read them 20:37:04 $ ../bin/ick -b flonck.i lib/floatlib.i 20:37:04 ICL129I PROGRAM HAS GOTTEN LOST 20:37:14 you need to append it 20:37:14 AnMaster: that's not appending floatlib.i to it 20:37:17 yourself 20:37:18 manually 20:37:19 oh 20:37:19 that's compiling both files 20:37:39 ICL533I YOU WANT MAYBE WE SHOULD IMPLEMENT 64-BIT VARIABLES? <-- yes! 20:37:45 ais523, add a -combine like gcc got? 20:37:52 (unlambda) 20:37:57 AnMaster: it's certainly a thought 20:37:58 AnMaster: it's meant to be awkward 20:38:04 but maybe ok 20:38:05 as a wimpmode 20:38:13 $ cat flonck.i lib/floatlib.i > stupid.intercal.i 20:38:14 $ ../bin/ick -b stupid.intercal.i 20:38:16 worked :) 20:38:20 ehird: what line was that ON THE LINE TO? 20:38:32 s/LINE/WAY/ 20:38:52 AnMaster: I strongly advise you to read the docs for flonck and floatlib, or you won't be able to figure out how the hell to use it 20:38:58 ais523: 324 20:39:03 ais523, I am reading the docs 20:39:09 and well I'm deciding to NOT use it 20:39:33 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:39:34 ais523, just one thing, if you add a befunge bridge, be sure to not make the messages from befunge silly ;) 20:39:34 ehird: I patched my version of unlambda.i because it had an error on line 323 20:39:44 (4402) DO RESUME '?'"?!101~#128'$!101~.101'"~#65535'$#2'~#3 20:39:46 is the correct lien 20:39:49 s/lien/line/ 20:40:00 ais523: maybe include that in the next release? 20:40:02 I thought I'd put the corrected version in the pit, though 20:40:05 ehird: yes 20:40:52 (oerjan didn't notice the error earlier because it was hidden by a bug in C-INTERCAL itself; when I corrected the C-INTERCAL bug, I had fix to unlambda.i which was relying on it) 20:41:37 ehird: does it work now? 20:42:01 ais523: gonna try 20:42:05 hmm 20:42:09 i want an editor that lets me: 20:42:25 $ eddy -l323 20:42:28 (4402) DO RESUME '?'"?!101~#128'$!101~.101'"~#65535'$#2'~#3 20:42:29 ^D 20:42:31 err 20:42:32 make that 20:42:36 ais523, you know all intercall errors in your head? 20:42:37 eddy -l323 unlambda.i 20:42:38 but yeah 20:42:42 something that lets me do quick edits like that 20:42:46 given precise information 20:42:48 AnMaster: not the numbers, but I do know the word descriptions 20:42:54 ais523, ah 20:43:01 most of them are related to the error in some way 20:43:14 ais523, "configdj.sh"? 20:43:17 things like "IT CAME FROM BEYOND SPACE", for instance, are reasonably obvious 20:43:22 AnMaster: for configuring it for DOS 20:43:25 oh 20:43:35 ais523, you don't do native windows binaries? 20:43:42 AnMaster: no, what would be the fun in that? 20:43:49 err, whateer 20:43:51 whatever* 20:43:53 you have to compile it yourself, I only distribute source 20:44:07 but you do dos binaries? 20:44:11 AnMaster: no 20:44:12 ah 20:44:19 but why support dos today? 20:44:24 who on earth will use that!? 20:44:25 AnMaster: because I don't support Windows 20:44:26 haha 20:44:28 yahoo! found me 20:44:29 :D 20:44:34 ais523, err? 20:44:39 you said it did work on windows? 20:44:42 AnMaster: Windows can run DOS programs 20:44:51 AnMaster: The same reason that the documentation's filenames are random 20:44:52 ais523, not in 64-bit windows 20:44:53 (e.g. 4589fjas.htm) 20:44:58 to maek them 8.3 20:45:00 for DOS 20:45:13 I'll have to go, this place closes at 9pm 20:45:13 That is: It's in INTERCAL's spirit to support old, dead platforms. 20:45:20 ais523, this place? 20:45:21 ais523: bye :) 20:45:24 AnMaster: library 20:45:24 ais523, cya 20:45:26 ah 20:45:28 I can move to another connection if you like 20:45:37 should I do that, or should I just go home? 20:45:42 ais523, would like that :) 20:45:49 ais523: me too 20:45:53 -!- ais523 has quit ("moving to a different connection"). 20:45:59 whee 20:46:29 i wish yahoo slurp and googlebot came at a time when i had stuff on 20:46:29 would it be possible to have a cleanly coded intercal compiler? 20:46:29 :| 20:46:40 AnMaster: Yes, but that would suck. 20:46:45 The whole point of INTERCAL is that it's, you know, fun. 20:46:50 And the compiler's obscurity reflects it 20:47:02 INTERCAL's weirdness isn't just the language itself. It's its culture 20:47:07 ehird, I find it fun to code perfect warning free code 20:47:09 but whatever 20:47:41 brb phone 20:48:19 that's because you're obsessive about clean C 20:48:22 an oxymoron if i ever heard one ;) 20:56:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:56:25 welcome back 20:56:27 where are you now? :p 20:57:13 common room in my department 20:57:19 in range of a wireless access point 20:58:09 heh! 20:58:39 how's the C-INTERCAL testing going? 20:58:54 AnMaster went brb phone 20:58:56 so nothing 20:58:58 oh looky 20:58:59 5242 A Generalized Unified Character Code: Western European and CJK 20:58:59 Sections. J. Klensin, H. Alvestrand. April 1 2008. (Format: TXT=31314 20:59:00 bytes) (Status: INFORMATIONAL) 20:59:03 * ehird grabs it from ftp 20:59:17 back 20:59:23 ehird: link? 20:59:27 ais523: getting one now 20:59:31 i got that from the big .txt index of rfcs 20:59:45 wow 20:59:48 ehird, link!!! 21:00:00 ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc5242.txt 21:00:09 it was published 20 minutes ago apparently 21:00:15 (it says 9:44 presumably +1) 21:00:17 err wait 21:00:18 hmm 21:00:19 maybe 9am 21:00:20 not sure 21:00:22 but whatever, it's new 21:00:32 I've been wondering about the April Fool's RFC 21:00:43 hmm 21:00:46 is this even april fools? 21:00:50 maybe i'm reading too quickly 21:01:16 unified-ccs@xn--iwem3b1f.xn--90ase1a.bogus.domain.name 21:01:19 http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5241.txt 21:01:20 that seems april foolsy 21:01:22 is the rfc 21:01:28 ehird: top of page 3 looks pretty aprilfoolsy 21:01:31 * SimonRC goes 21:01:40 it's basically the opposite of the Unicode guidelines for such things 21:01:52 ais523, ee 21:01:55 eeh* 21:02:07 middle of page 3 is even worse 21:02:45 if its an april fools, its not very funny 21:03:22 ehird: in that case, you've missed the joke entirely 21:03:26 maybe 21:04:01 wow, it allows you to define INTERCAL characters 21:04:10 ais523, ehird or maybe: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5241.txt is the joke one? 21:04:14 INTERCAL's been missing forever and has had to use a backspace as a replacement 21:04:50 AnMaster: maybe 21:04:51 "For example, the characters "b" and "d" are coded as o and o, respectively." 21:04:57 that surely isn't serious 21:05:07 ais523: 5241 seems like a joke though 21:05:16 maybe they're both jokes 21:05:43 Raising an additional US$1 M from the rental of naming rights could 21:05:43 significantly change the budget dynamics. Perhaps meeting fees could 21:05:43 be reduced for all attendees or special subsidies could be provided 21:05:43 to needy students, researchers, or job seekers. 21:05:43 or none of them are? 21:05:43 5242 wasn't produced by the IETF; apparently, more than one standards body can produce RFCs 21:06:37 6.1. Acceptable Taste-Wise 21:06:44 OK, 5242 is definitely a joke, no serious RFC leaves things as exercises for the reader 21:06:49 IP: Garmin GPS Destination Address 21:06:53 IP: White & Day Mortuary Time-to-live 21:06:57 TCP: Princess Cruise Lines Port Number 21:07:01 ARP: Springfield Preschool Timeout 21:07:04 ok 21:07:05 BGP: Sharpie Marker field 21:07:09 TFRC: Traveler's Insurance Loss Period 21:07:13 SCTP: Hershey's Chunk {type|flags|length} 21:07:13 SMTP: eHarmony HELO 21:07:13 5241 is certainl the funnier one 21:07:13 ais523: but its not as funny as 5241 21:07:13 because its the biggest bikeshed ever 21:07:23 Upon the adoption of this proposal the RFC Editor SHALL create XML 21:07:23 versions of all IETF RFCs. The XML must be such that a perfect copy 21:07:23 of the original RFC can be produced using a tool such as xml2rfc 21:07:23 [XML2RFC]. The XML versions of RFCs must identify all individual 21:07:23 protocol fields using an XML protocol field element of the form: 21:09:21 " between a term that would best represent the half-life of an Internet 21:09:22 startup (1 or 2 years)" 21:10:13 hah 21:12:38 http://www.google.com/virgle/images/opensource.jpg 21:12:43 that's a great image 21:14:03 ais523, what is the other figure? 21:14:06 the non-tux one 21:14:10 AnMaster: an alien 21:14:14 ah 21:14:15 virgle is a space travel joke 21:14:16 not a logo then 21:14:18 ehird: you beat me to it 21:14:25 its also one of the Google Talk avatars you can select 21:14:31 yes I read the Virgle stuff 21:14:32 -!- Judofyr has quit. 21:14:40 * ehird is full of knowledge 21:14:46 Google Talk? never used it 21:15:10 neither have I, but I think it's just an interface to Jabber 21:15:24 yeah 21:15:28 pretty much 21:15:36 i use the address for my jabber stuff 21:17:42 [21:17] Rienzilla, what do you mean by physical devices ... 21:17:46 [21:17] a thing 21:17:50 [21:17] if you throw it at someone, it might hurt :) 21:17:55 ehird: which channel was that in? 21:17:58 ais523: #debian 21:20:10 ais523, oh and I'd like to know more about details for funge <-> intercal stuff 21:20:14 ie, exactly what you mean 21:20:48 oh and any patches will not be accepted in the current coding style of ick ;P 21:20:48 well, maybe I should show you an example of INTERCAL <-> C, then we can discuss how it would apply to funge 21:20:54 AnMaster: they won't be 21:21:02 http://adsense.blogspot.com/2008/04/introducing-adsense-for-conversations.html 21:21:20 Orkut also displayed name as Yoghurt 21:21:28 'Google launches Dajare in Japan (google.co.jp), with the mission of "organizing the world’s laughter." [2]' 21:21:33 'Google announces gDay in Australia (http://www.google.com.au/intl/en/gday/press.html), a new beta search technology that will search web pages 24 hours before they are created.' 21:21:38 ehird, yes didn't get that one 21:21:40 'Google announces Google 사투리 번역 (Google dialect translation) for translating regional dialects of Korean to and from Standard Korean.[3]' 21:21:41 the last I mean 21:21:42 err 21:21:47 Dajare I mean 21:21:49 'Google added the "I'm Feeling Lucky" button to its calendar feature. When you tried to create a new event, you were given the regular option of entering the correct details and hitting "Create Event," and also the new option of "I'm Feeling Lucky" which would set you up with an evening date with, among others, Matt Damon, Eric Cartman, Tom Cruise, Jessica Alba, Pamela Anderson, Paris Hilton, Angelina Jolie, Britney Spears, Anna Kournikova, Johnny Depp, 21:21:49 George W. Bush, or Lois Griffin.' 21:21:56 'Google launched their "Wake Up Kit" as a calendar notification option. The option sends a series of increasingly aggressive alerts, starting with an SMS message to your cellphone, and ending with a bucket of water dumped into your bed, which would then flip over, tossing you out (all using apparently-free equipment).' 21:22:03 ehird, it is just easier to paste link to wikipedia you know 21:22:03 :P 21:22:03 'A little easter egg was added, where a user can click the file menu and directly under new document is "New Airplane" which immediately opens a copy of a Google branded paper airplane. To reach the file menu, click the new menu, then "Document" then a new window opens.' (google docs) 21:22:08 AnMaster: stuff you :D 21:22:13 'Google launches Manpower Search (谷歌人肉搜索) in China (google.cn). This new feature is powered by 25 million volunteers who do the searching around the clock. When the user entered a keyword, volunteers will search any possible answers from a mass of paper documents as well as online resources. The user is expected to get the search result within 32 seconds.' 21:22:18 'Google Books has a new section allowing users to 'scratch and sniff' certain books. Users are asked to "...please place your nose near the monitor and click 'Go'" which then 'loads odours'. When clicking on 'Help' users are redirected to a Google Book page entitled "Belgravia: A London Magazine"' 21:22:19 there 21:22:20 that's all of em 21:22:20 heh 21:22:51 AnMaster: the way INTERCAL <-> C linking works is this: 21:22:52 so far 21:23:01 you designate functions inside a C program using ICK_EC_FUNC_START 21:23:20 which basically defines a wrapper around a void(*)(void) 21:24:01 you can write COME FROM, NEXT, NEXT FROM, RESUME, FORGET, and CREATE inside the C function using C-named statements (like ick_comefrom) 21:24:31 when the INTERCAL program encounters a line label, it calls all the specially-marked C functions, and jumps between the ick_comefrom calls in them using a chain of gotos 21:24:47 hm 21:24:52 and if any of them want to do the comefrom, they can steal execution and transfer it to the body of the program 21:25:09 that will be terribly hard to do in befunge 21:25:11 (actually I pass through all of them once to verify that there's exactly one COME FROM, and then again to jump to the right one if there is) 21:25:22 even if you could say have M for come from 21:25:24 in Befunge, you'd have a fingerprint add COME FROM, etc., to the language 21:25:25 what parameters to M? 21:25:28 you couldn't know 21:25:32 until you hit it 21:25:33 AnMaster: it would have to take them from the playfield 21:25:42 ais523, they can be stored anyhow 21:25:44 as far as I can tell it's the only solution 21:25:48 vertically or whatever 21:26:13 or using x, anywhere at all 21:26:14 indeed 21:26:22 -!- Iskr has quit ("Leaving"). 21:26:31 you could write the char for 1666 followed by M, to do a COME FROM (1666) 21:26:35 well 21:26:41 and modify the playfield to do computed COME FROMs 21:26:42 char for it? 21:26:56 you need maths to push on the stack 21:26:59 like say 21:27:21 AnMaster: do you think it should run a Befunge program instead to calculate the line label? 21:27:30 ais523: c-intercal downloads are absolutely crushing my traffic 21:27:31 not 21:27:40 not one person apart from you three have downloaded the tgz yet 21:27:45 something like M1a*6+a*6+a*6+@ 21:27:52 would be COME FROM 1666 21:27:53 f7*6+ 21:27:56 to get 111 21:27:58 I think 21:28:26 but you could store that as: 21:28:29 ICL240I ERROR HANDLER PRINTED SNIDE REMARK 21:28:31 brilliant 21:28:32 and then when the line (1666) was reached, the Befunge program would gain control from the M, but going, for instance, downwards, so that it didn't hit the calculate line number code 21:28:37 M+6*7f< 21:28:39 ais523, ^ 21:28:43 or vertically or so on 21:29:05 or do you mean a marker in the code? 21:29:06 AnMaster: you mean it would look for < ^ > v on the same line as the COME FROM 21:29:14 the M would be the marker 21:29:15 ais523, wouldn't work 21:29:25 but I guess you could restrict it to a special format 21:29:25 AnMaster: what's the issue here? 21:29:42 ais523, using x it may be stored diagonally or whatever as well 21:29:55 so there needs to be some kind of marker 21:30:11 or you would have to restrict it to ordinary-moving IPs 21:30:26 you would have to restrict to cardinal IPs you mean? 21:30:31 yes 21:30:37 ^>v< is called cardinal ;P 21:30:38 cardinal, and one char at a time 21:30:40 in befunge-speak 21:30:56 which, considering how intercal speak looks, I feel isn't so bad 21:31:03 ;P 21:31:06 intercal looks so awesome 21:31:13 no comments 21:31:16 oklopol: you been playing with the new compiler too? 21:31:24 ais523: i haven't done anything with intercal 21:31:34 but i love the way it mixes ork and malgolbe 21:31:36 *malbolge 21:31:37 ais523, oh another thing, how would you locate Ms? 21:31:42 remember funge-space can change 21:31:47 AnMaster: look at the playfield 21:31:54 and well my funge-space doesn't work well for searching in 21:31:57 whenever you reached a line number you'd have to scan the playfield for Ms 21:32:10 and don't worry about the efficiency of COME FROM, it's inefficient more or less by definition 21:32:12 ais523, that would be awesomelly slow 21:32:25 ais523, because I use a hash library 21:32:27 what about caching a list of all playfield locations with Ms in 21:32:34 ais523, ok you could do that 21:32:40 wouldn't be to hard 21:32:50 you would need to hook into the loading routines for files 21:32:54 and into set routine 21:32:59 to notice when new are added 21:33:04 well all use the set one 21:33:08 so not too hard 21:33:24 no, not hard at all 21:33:31 FUNGE_FAST static inline void FungeSpaceSetNoBoundUpdate(FUNGEDATATYPE value, const fungePosition * restrict position) 21:33:33 that :) 21:33:42 FUNGE_FAST expands to regparam(3) attribute btw 21:33:46 on i386 21:34:01 # define FUNGE_FAST __attribute__((regparm(3))) 21:34:03 anyway, COME FROM, NEXT FROM, and line labels are the 'feral' things that can gain control from anywhere 21:34:22 ais523, hope you won't barf on that calling convention ;) 21:34:27 pancakes 21:34:30 AnMaster: I shouldn't 21:34:50 oklopol: why not download C-INTERCAL 0.28 and run some of the example programs? 21:35:24 oklopol: intercal predates ork and malbolge 21:35:35 ais523, hm, hope so, well stuff will fail if you compile one bit with gcc and another with another c compiler 21:35:44 AnMaster: -e requires gcc to work 21:35:45 AnMaster: I find your micro-optimization disturbing. 21:35:58 ehird, well you didn't like clean code did you? 21:35:58 ehird: i know it does 21:36:05 ehird: AnMaster put lots of effort into beating ccbi by as much as possible 21:36:06 that's a bit beside the point 21:36:11 ais523: quite 21:36:12 ais523, correct 21:36:20 and I beat it very very far on x86_64 21:36:20 oklopol: and if you do download it.. http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/ick-0-28.tgz :D 21:36:25 i'm like sgeo 21:36:28 without the psox 21:36:52 oklopol: actually, the command syntax of both ORK and INTERCAL parodies COBOL, so in that sense it's not surprising that they're similar 21:37:54 ais523, is intercal case sensitive? 21:38:02 AnMaster: yes by default 21:38:09 by default *sigh* 21:38:19 there's a define somewhere in the lexer that lets you change that 21:38:29 but it's compiled in, and I don't know of anyone who changed it 21:38:36 k 21:38:47 well I got nothing against case sensitivity 21:39:19 I just thought it would look very different with lower case 21:39:28 the point was not that intercal is like ork/malbolge, just that it mixed the two styles in a fun way. 21:39:41 i mean, superficially, i really don't know anything about it 21:40:01 oklopol: the flow control model is actually really interesting once you get used to it 21:40:02 ais523, as for "look for < on same line" 21:40:05 that wouldn't really work 21:40:23 AnMaster: agreed, it seems a bit hacky 21:40:24 ais523, another thing, the value in question you should look for should be in RPN notation, going towards M 21:40:28 that is what you need 21:40:28 like DO loops in Fortran 21:40:58 ais523, there are fingerprints that allow moving the ip one line down without changing delta anyway ;P 21:40:58 AnMaster: INTERCAL allows non-constants in COME FROMs, but Befunge can do that anyway using p 21:41:34 as for searching for < and so on, it wouldn't really be a case of doing it because that's the only way to reach the M 21:41:44 more a case of you have to write it like that so that the compiler can find it 21:43:04 ais523, well you would have to maintain a cache, because I want to be able to just take out most of the funge-space stuff and replace it 21:43:04 either that, or you could add some sort of marker character that marked the start of a COMEFROM input, with M at the end 21:43:17 ais523, as profiling show that is the slowest bit for x86_64 21:43:21 by far 21:43:49 well, it would be possible to write a search-for-Ms-script in pure Befunge 21:43:57 ridiculously slow, but avoid messing with the interpreter 21:44:04 ais523, well a hook would be easy 21:44:11 the general layout would be maintained for such stuff 21:44:42 just the actual calls to the hash library may change drastically 21:45:53 you could do the hook as a function call to a function that isn't in your compiler guarded by a #define 21:47:10 yes sure I could add a function pointer hook 21:47:25 I need something like that for my debugger protocol anyway 21:48:07 AnMaster: is cfunge reentrant? 21:48:40 ais523, depends, I may use non _r stuff 21:48:42 that is, can I simulate a function call by taking control from the hook, doing my own things, and then calling cfunge again to cause it to simulate things in a different place, with the old IP still on the C call stack? 21:48:44 but well what do you mean 21:48:53 ais523, I got no clue 21:48:55 I never tried 21:49:00 no, most people don't 21:49:13 ais523, I mean, that is not something I planned for 21:49:22 it would be needed for function calls out of Befunge to the INTERCAL program to work 21:49:34 if the INTERCAL program was allowed to call back to the Befunge from there 21:49:52 ais523, well I do use global variables for stuff 21:50:05 and if you do from hook into funge space code, well things would be uggly 21:50:20 the ideal situation would be if you used global variables for everything but the IP 21:50:32 but it's trivial to work around that being global too by making a local copy 21:50:35 ais523, the ip/ip list is a static variable 21:50:48 ip is then passed around 21:51:18 ip list is currently passed around as well but I plan to change that for performance reasons 21:51:23 OK, I think I could make that work with single-threaded Befunge, no idea how it would work with concurrency in the Befunge program 21:52:04 ais523, you know, I'm not sure how I made concurrency work with befunge at all in some places ;P 21:52:18 concurrency in befunge really makes stuff complex 21:52:30 one reason for the debugging protocol stuff 21:52:39 brb 21:54:36 tons o' Ubuntu users 21:54:38 or is that me 21:54:57 ehird: probably you and me 21:55:14 disregard your own IP range 21:55:30 and mine's 147.188.0.0/16 when I'm here 21:56:37 -!- cherez has joined. 21:56:53 ehird: now if you were really doing a Sgeo, you'd spam cherez at this point 21:57:35 oops 21:57:46 cherez: Tried out C-INTERCAL 0.28? 21:57:50 ... 21:57:52 cherez: ping 21:57:58 cherez: Hello?????? 21:58:03 :D 21:58:14 Gentoo 21:58:24 AnMaster: Windows 21:58:49 are you both calling out the names of operating systems at random, or is there some purpose to that? 21:58:57 i have no idea 21:59:07 is sgeo gone, by the way? 21:59:08 ehird: pong 21:59:11 i haven't seen him recently 21:59:17 cherez: ignore me, i was imitating Sgeo 21:59:24 I figured as such. 21:59:39 Always spamming me. 21:59:43 I released a new version of the C-INTERCAL compiler today, and ehird is hosting it and therefore decided to spam everyone about it 22:01:45 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:02:04 ais523: ? 22:02:12 I just pinged everyone in #esoteric 22:02:14 ais523, oh and for cfunge you need to distrbuted version control system bazaar installed 22:02:14 -!- cherez has joined. 22:02:15 out of interest, mostly 22:02:20 version 0.92 or later 22:02:28 1.3 recommended 22:02:42 strangely, not everyone replied, maybe because their clients don't do CTCP ping 22:02:43 ais523, and bzr needs python, so for DOS you got to copy the files ;P 22:02:55 that's more interesting 22:02:57 RodgerTheGreat was fastest, by the way, and lament was slowest 22:03:08 'VERSION' 22:03:10 not Version 22:03:22 ehird, mine sent Version? 22:03:22 [CTCP] Received Version request from ehird to channel #esoteric. 22:03:27 oh 22:03:28 okay then 22:03:30 ehird: that's pretty bad 22:03:36 I'm quite sure mine sent VERSION 22:03:37 ais523: ? 22:03:39 yeah 22:03:41 konversation bug 22:03:51 [22:02] [CTCP] Received CTCP-VERSION reply from Deewiant: Deewiantbot version NaN 22:03:55 ehird: worked for me 22:04:03 I wrote /ctcp #esoteric version 22:04:04 -Deewiant- VERSION Deewiantbot version NaN 22:04:11 * Received a CTCP version from ais523 (to #esoteric) 22:04:16 ais523, you sent lower case 22:04:33 so Konversation doesn't automatically upcase ctcps? 22:04:38 no clue 22:04:39 I got lots of responses, anyway 22:04:45 some were also in lowercase 22:04:47 it may do 22:04:53 like the ones from RodgerTheGreat and clog 22:04:55 I sent upper case I'm sure 22:04:59 /ver #esoteric 22:05:08 no 22:05:09 and I got all upper case 22:05:12 konversation titlecases thm 22:05:13 on recieve 22:05:19 AnMaster: you sent your answer in uppercase 22:05:24 -RodgerTheGreat- VERSION Colloquy 2.1 (3761) - Mac OS X 10.4.11 (Intel) - http://colloquy.info 22:05:27 that 22:05:35 ais523, yes I know 22:05:47 ais523, I love my irc client you know what one it is 22:06:08 should put "made with emacs" on cfunge website 22:06:10 ;P 22:06:10 well, I like Konversation, and telnet, but for almost opposite reasons 22:06:12 well got to sleep now 22:06:59 byebye AnMaster 22:07:01 :p 22:08:20 BTW, the CLC-INTERCAL maintainer gave me some clues on how to do an IRC client in CLC-INTERCAL, so I may have a go at that 22:10:02 ais523: you should make a graphical intercal 22:10:05 program = tree structure 22:10:16 it should be 'helpful' in various ways that are more useless than helpful 22:10:20 also, use Athena or something else outdated 22:10:24 but make it look like Motif 22:10:35 because 'that's what you're used to on your SCO Unix desktop' 22:11:00 'You can see motiflook.c and modify it if you are used to another desktop look (such as Tk or Xt).' 22:14:05 ais523: no? ;) 22:14:13 ehird: not entirely sure what you mean 22:14:17 do you mean graphical source code 22:14:21 or a graphical IDE, or what 22:16:10 ais523: both 22:16:20 ais523: it gets 'serialized to INTERCAL for the compiler' 22:16:29 but you can only serialize it from the program, and only to put it in the compiler 22:16:34 to save it, it uses a complex format 22:16:38 which is like a bitmap with semantic metadata 22:16:47 ehird: no, I'd prefer to have some proper way to convert to INTERCAL 22:16:47 ais523: but a graphical IDE using graphical source code 22:16:50 i.e. the program is a tree 22:16:52 :D 22:16:56 ais523: offer a perl script 22:17:01 although doing it using a decompiler that reverses C-INTERCAL's effect would be interesting 22:17:02 it parses the bitmap, does OCR on the text 22:17:07 and uses the semantic metadata to convert to text 22:17:52 and say 'If you do not have a PERL implementation on your system, you can telnet in to my box at ais.cwrccu.mit.edu and copy it from /usr/sww6/r/bin/perl.' 22:17:54 :D 22:20:27 ais523: Maybe I'm the only person that is amused by that 22:20:32 Prboably. 22:20:36 Oh look, msnbot is poking around my site. 22:20:39 I'm popular. 22:20:40 I do like the idea of copying a binary acrss 22:20:54 ehird: this just goes to show that Google and Yahoo! are faster at indexing than Windows Live 22:20:59 Someone just tried with Lynx and w3m.. 22:21:23 ehird: are you getting some idea of what the popularity of INTERCAL is like, now? 22:21:28 I bet they were going to say 'YOUR SITE DOESN'T WORK IN HIGHLY IMPORTANT TEXT ONLY BROWSERS. THEY CANNOT DOWNLOAD C-INTERCAL. ALSO BLIND PEOPLE CANNOT EITHER. FIX YOUR WEBSITE TO W3CSTANDARDX' 22:21:34 remember that many people will be downloading from the other websites 22:21:40 :D 22:21:42 ais523: Yeah, that's true 22:21:43 ehird: it does work in w3m, presumably? 22:21:48 actually, I'll test 22:21:52 yeah, i'm sure it does 22:21:55 look at the dir listing source 22:21:56 very simple 22:22:11 yep, it's fine 22:22:15 just the skeleton, an H2, and a PRE 22:23:09 and ehird, I wouldn't be at all surprised if text-browser usage and INTERCAL usage were positively correlated 22:23:42 yeah 22:23:50 but i think it was just someone trying to find something to whine about 22:23:56 there's a lot of people who do that with text-only browsers 22:24:02 like someone complained about reddit not being usable in lynx 22:24:23 hmm... it seems the largest INTERCAL programs in the examples are unlambda.i, quine.i and interfunge.i in that order 22:24:27 the dir listing is really usable via lynx actually 22:24:37 ehird: yes, via w3m too 22:25:17 -debug DO NOT USE -- w3m 22:25:20 i love that doc 22:25:36 there's a similar option in C-INTERCAL 22:25:41 ais523: elinks too. of course it does, its an html, head, title, body, h2, and pre with a 22:25:45 oh, and an hr 22:25:50 hardly any possibility to go wrong 22:25:53 generated programs have a +mystery option that is deliberately undocumented 22:26:42 what DOES it do? 22:26:49 ehird: normally nothing 22:27:08 if you happened to compile with the constant-output optimiser, though, it cuts off the program after 4 billion steps 22:27:17 ais523: btw c-intercal won't -F quine.i 22:27:17 and returns with an unusual error code 22:27:20 maybe runs a bit too long 22:27:43 ehird: I doubt that's the problem, it's likely something else, because -F is pretty conservative 22:27:53 beer.i too 22:28:47 actually, -F isn't working at all for me at the moment 22:28:53 it doesn't work on primes.i, but used to 22:29:18 so I've probably broken it somewhere 22:29:35 oh well, at least it still bumps gcc up to -O3 22:29:43 I'll have to look into what's wrong there, as well 22:33:30 ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation 22:33:32 the example there 22:33:39 will it work with continuation.i? 22:33:42 ehird: that requires an interactive program 22:33:51 -!- oklopol has quit (No route to host). 22:33:55 you can't set up the calls in the right way, because the continuations themselves run off 22:34:11 e.g. it calls theContinuation multiple times, but never gets control back again 22:35:45 yeah 22:35:48 i guess so 22:35:53 ais523: implement an intercal repl! 22:36:00 repl? 22:36:46 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 22:37:24 ais523: Read,Eval,Print,Loop 22:37:35 Hi folks 22:37:37 there's intercalc, which is a CLC-iNTERCAL version 22:37:39 hi wildhalcyon 22:37:40 You can actually define it like that in a forth-alike 22:37:44 we were discussing INTERCAL 22:37:47 : loop read eval print loop ; 22:37:57 INTERCAL, huh? 22:38:07 I released a new version of C-INTERCAL today 22:38:12 oh? congrats 22:38:35 and a new version of the rival CLC-INTERCAL was also released 22:39:20 I didn't know you were in charge of C-INTERCAL development. 22:39:33 DID I MENTION I HOST A MIRROR? 22:39:38 ok, this sgeo imitation is getting old 22:39:45 i'll stop now 22:39:52 well, I just released the last few versions, and eventually decided that I was the de facto C-INTERCAL maintainer 22:40:30 ehird, you could imitate me. Just claim that you've invented some particularly well-known entity. 22:40:34 ais523: you seem to be the only one who actually works on it 22:40:45 wildhalcyon: I invented mirrors! Take a look: http://elliotthird.org/mirror/c-intercal/ick-0-28.tgz Aren't they cool? 22:40:46 like that? 22:40:49 ehird: Joris Huizer has sent me a lot of patches 22:40:56 yeah, pretty much :-) 22:41:17 I can normally expect a bugfix from Joris within a week or so of releasing a new version 22:42:12 so who's Eric Raymond then? 22:42:22 wildhalcyon: who's Eric Raymond? 22:42:22 Hah! 22:42:37 I've heard the name a few times. 22:42:44 I'd say "an idiot", other people say "a revolutionary" 22:42:46 man, I'm really sounding pretty ignorant these days 22:43:00 I know he's kind of been pioneering the open source stuff 22:43:04 * ais523 remembers Raymond, Stallman and Torvalds as being some of the best known names in Open Source 22:43:07 basically - apparently is 'integral to the open source movement' but doesn't really do anything 22:43:14 and basically he himself claims that 22:43:25 he wrote 'fetchmail', and that's about it. and fetchmail is more of a shame than a positive thing 22:43:36 also gpsd 22:43:43 also, he's very egotistical, a gun nut and intolerant. BUT that's just my opinion. 22:43:46 Other people like him. 22:43:47 and C-INTERCAL, of course 22:43:50 ais523: Well, yes. 22:44:18 i did find 'How to be a hacker' amusing, though, because it should have been titled 'How to be me' 22:44:20 ... what's gpsd? 22:44:25 wildhalcyon: Make your own decisions. http://www.catb.org/~esr/ 22:44:41 wildhalcyon: daemon for communicating with a GPS receiver 22:44:50 I happened to be using it recently 22:45:04 so ais, are you now the defacto maintainer of C-INTERCAL? Did Eric abandon it? 22:45:18 eric abandoned it pretty much 22:45:43 it hadn't been updated in a year 22:45:44 Well, glad someone took it up 22:45:48 well, more than a year 22:45:52 INTERCAL is outstanding. I'd hate to lose it 22:45:57 so I forked but used the next available version number 22:46:01 and then it just continued from there 22:52:03 oh well, conversation seems to have died now, and it seems unlikely I'll get many more requests for help, bugfixes, etc. right now, so I may as well go home 22:52:41 bbl folks 22:52:44 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit. 22:52:48 oop 22:52:55 just as i was about to write an intercal program 22:52:55 :) 22:53:03 bye, ais523! 22:54:32 umm... I didn't mean to set away 22:54:36 oh, okay, bye 22:55:12 -!- ais523 has quit ("bye, everyone!"). 23:18:59 -!- kwertii has joined. 23:19:27 -!- timotiis has quit ("leaving"). 23:46:34 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 23:56:42 hello