00:04:56 i always disliked guitar's b and e, the fact you can play a few chords easier isn't really worth losing the simple structure of 4ths 00:05:05 same with piano 00:05:37 it would be such a nice instrument if you could put a black key between e&f and b&c 00:05:43 * oklofok hates 00:06:33 s/could/just 00:12:02 ... 00:12:32 If you put a black key between E&F, it would be (logarithmically) half the difference between any other two notes, that would be nonsense. 00:14:37 GregorR: naturally all intervals should be chromatic steps 00:14:42 whatever they're called 00:15:04 So, you're just saying that you don't like that the Piano is "tuned" to a C scale by default. 00:15:08 i mean, physically between e and f, not logically 00:15:12 yes 00:15:18 Got it, OK, that makes more sense :P 00:15:26 heh :D 00:15:51 well given my explanation about guitar you might have caught what i was going for... or not, i'm not that good at explaining. 00:16:21 I wasn't actually following the conversation, just caught that bit :P 00:16:28 I'm just waiting for RodgerTheGreat to reappear :P 00:17:05 it's not a conversation, it's a monologue! 00:20:23 oklofok: mandolins are tuned in fifths, GDAE, same as violins 00:20:47 the article said they sometimes do, indeed 00:20:54 it's the standard tuning 00:20:55 i assumed that's a rarer tuning 00:20:59 no, it's standard 00:21:04 but okay, that is better than guitar's 00:21:09 it's better than everything 00:21:13 for analogy with piano 00:21:16 imagine playing in the key of c 00:21:28 and now, imagine playing in the key of c no matter what key you're actually playing in :) 00:21:37 there's only one scale to remember 00:21:42 Imagine playing in the key of C... 00:21:46 duh 00:21:49 Then putting down your C trumpet and picking up a Bb trumpet ... 00:21:50 (well, not really. but more or less) 00:21:53 And playing in the key of Bb! 00:21:58 :P 00:22:08 lament: that is true of guitar too 00:22:25 on guitar, there's a whole bunch of scales to remember thanks mostly to that third between G and B 00:22:42 so there's at least 5 pretty different major scales 00:22:42 depends on the amount of frets 00:23:05 but true, pure 4ths or pure 5ths is better 00:23:39 5ths is a little better because you don't need to shift the position as often 00:23:48 because the majority of notes fall under your fingers anyway 00:24:09 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 00:24:20 on guitar, more notes are outside the position 00:24:33 and you have to shift or stretch to get them 00:26:02 dunno 00:26:28 5ths also reflect the structure of the scales themselves better 00:26:39 but i'd need to draw a picture to show that clearly 00:26:45 hmm 00:27:28 02302302 for guitar minor 00:27:28 on guitar, some of your fingers are wasted at any moment because they fall on frets which are out of the scale 00:27:38 02350135 for 5ths 00:28:13 adding another octave makes both crasg. 00:28:15 *crash 00:28:20 eg, you're playing minor, starting with the first finger, you play the first three notes 00:28:33 you use up first finger, third finger, fourth finger 00:28:42 and your second finger is wasted, you're unlikely to play that semitone 00:28:54 but on the mandolin, each finger corresponds to a note 00:28:58 not to a fret 00:29:13 (each finger corresponds to more or less two frets, and independently shifts between them) 00:29:24 true, true 00:29:27 so you play the first three notes with the first three fingers 00:29:40 yes, yes, i understand english, man :-) 00:30:42 the effect is somewhat like on the piano, where you don't waste your fingers either 00:30:54 i wont 00:30:56 * 00:30:56 if you're playing in C major, the fingers fall on the white keys, one finger per note 00:30:58 --- 00:30:58 won 00:31:03 okay, i can't type. 00:31:09 i won't disagree on that 00:31:10 anyway. 00:31:13 was what i tried to say 00:31:30 the thing about structure is better explained with a picture 00:31:36 that i'm too lazy / too at work to draw at the moment 00:32:25 i'm always interested to hear, so if you feel like drawing it later, do show 00:35:16 there's a particularly pretty correspondence with the cycle of fifths 00:35:24 and in particular, the cycle of modes 00:36:13 here's how it works 00:36:20 each scale is 2 tetrachords 00:36:34 tetrachord? 00:36:38 four notes in a row 00:36:46 ah 00:36:58 the cycle of modes goes lydian-ionian-mixolydian-dorian-etc 00:36:59 well scales are 7 notes 00:37:11 suppose we're in the key of c 00:37:22 lydian? 00:37:24 and ionian (major) mode 00:37:25 ionian? 00:37:29 mixolydian? 00:37:33 oh, okay, nevermind. 00:37:44 you can just tell me the numbes 00:37:46 *numbers 00:37:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode 00:38:09 i'll read after a while 00:39:44 better yet, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_musical_modes 00:39:56 that's something you should know regardless of the instrument you're playing 00:41:02 -!- timotiis has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:41:07 dunno 00:41:15 well i didn't read the second one yet 00:42:35 it's fairly basic music theory stuff 00:42:43 non-esoteric 00:44:33 well i know it 00:45:10 i mean, i know the keys of the piano, and memorizing a few names isn't really all that useful imo 00:46:09 of course interesting to memorize what scales are using in different music styles 00:46:21 but it all seems a bit... informal 00:46:34 eh? it's very formal 00:47:46 well i'm not going to argue you, it's just i feel the current formalization of music isn't really all that optimal 00:47:53 well 00:47:55 that may be 00:47:56 but i may be wrong, i've never really studied it. 00:47:59 but modes are a very useful concept 00:48:04 well sure 00:48:09 they actually do describe stuff well 00:48:59 so modes are names for the scales on piano, without black keys? 00:49:05 i mean, in short, is that it? 00:49:07 yes 00:49:16 okay, good 00:49:28 i guess it would be appropriate to learn the names 00:49:32 yes 00:49:41 i'll do that now 00:49:43 the most common modes are ionian (also known as major) 00:49:51 aeolian (also known as natural minor) 00:50:07 and mixolydian (major with the flattened seventh; the "dominant" scale) 00:51:12 dominant scale? 00:51:15 what's the name for 00:51:35 If you play it, it will seep into your soul and slowly start to dominate it. 00:51:47 :o 00:51:55 Eventually, you will no longer be oklofok, you will only be the mixolydian scale. 00:52:06 cool 00:52:07 oklofok: if you're in C major, and play G7 00:52:09 i'll go play it 00:52:18 that G7 is a dominant chord 00:52:23 did it 00:52:31 how long till i turn into it? 00:52:44 oh 00:52:46 i see 00:53:00 it's a mixolydian chord 00:53:43 as you see this isn't esoteric - 7 chords are used all the time in practically all styles of music 00:54:32 "lament: the cycle of modes goes lydian-ionian-mixolydian-dorian-etc" <<< can you explain this? 00:55:13 i do pretty chromatic stuff myself 00:55:19 sure 00:55:27 that's just the cycle of fifths 00:55:37 hmmhmm 00:56:05 ...i really need a picture at this point. 00:56:11 cycle of fifths... can you try to be more unambiguous, i'm not feeling all that bright today 00:56:14 hehe :D 00:56:27 gonna draw it? 00:56:32 do you know what the cycle of fifths is? 00:56:45 no. 00:57:02 explained in the article? 00:57:18 isn't 00:59:18 okay, forget about the modes. 00:59:43 cycle of fifths is the key concept of western harmony. 00:59:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_fifths 00:59:57 you absolutely need to know that. 00:59:58 -!- Slereah has joined. 01:00:31 Hello, world! 01:01:11 lament: oh that 01:01:11 i know that 01:01:39 the vicious circle 01:02:01 it was funny when they tried to teach us intervals and scales with that thing :D 01:02:23 so much work for something so simple 01:02:27 anyway, what about that 01:02:35 oh, right, i'll reread what you said 01:03:30 it seems you were only starting to explain something 01:06:15 oklofok: yes 01:06:50 do continue, i'll scream if i don't know a term. 01:07:18 so 01:07:38 a scale is made up of two tetrachords 01:07:53 for example, c-major: CDEF GABC 01:08:05 where the latter ends in the base note? 01:08:05 yeah 01:08:26 on the mandolin, if you start the scale on the first finger 01:08:45 each tetrachord fits on a string 01:08:57 and the second tetrachord starts on the first finger again 01:09:00 on a new string 01:09:04 well, sure 01:09:07 okay 01:09:10 now this second tetrachord 01:09:20 i think i see where this is going 01:09:21 is actually the first tetrachord of mixolydian mode: GABC DEFG 01:09:25 do go on 01:09:47 wait a sec 01:09:49 so 01:09:53 0245 01:09:57 0245 01:10:03 yes 01:10:08 0235 01:10:08 024 01:10:12 let's see 01:10:16 should this correspond to the cycle of fifths? 01:10:19 it does 01:10:26 because the strings are tuned a fifth apart 01:10:33 hmm 01:10:37 sure 01:10:39 i guess that's kinda neat 01:11:20 i never gave much thought to the western way to classify music 01:11:24 always used my own notations 01:11:29 now, let's see how it actually looks 01:11:40 let's 01:11:58 0245 == O O OO (on a string that goes from left to right) 01:12:01 makes sense? 01:12:13 makes me go duh, yes 01:12:16 normally you draw strings vertically but that's hard on irc 01:12:18 okay 01:12:33 so the first one, 0245 0245, and then 0235 etc 01:12:39 O O OO 01:12:41 O O OO 01:12:43 O OO O 01:12:54 yeah 01:12:56 and then you just continue the pattern 01:12:57 O OO O 01:13:01 OO O O 01:13:02 OO O O 01:13:07 see the pattern? 01:13:14 yes 01:13:16 neat 01:13:18 each two adjacent strings are the same 01:13:19 very neat 01:13:21 do minor 01:13:36 it would cycle after that, right? 01:13:41 that's the neat part, i already did minor :) 01:13:47 oh 01:13:48 right 01:13:54 it's the fourth of those lines 01:13:56 and the fifth 01:14:11 hmm 01:14:13 sorry, the fifth and the sixth 01:14:21 sorry, i can't count! 01:14:24 ...? 01:14:27 :D 01:14:27 the fourth and the fifth :) 01:14:31 O OO O 01:14:34 OO O O 01:14:36 yeah 01:14:44 so the overall pattern is 01:14:49 the first and the fourth fingers don't move 01:15:03 and in the middle there's this "ladder" that moves from the top to the bottom 01:15:27 . . |. 01:15:29 . . |. 01:15:37 . .| . 01:15:39 err 01:15:43 well yeah 01:15:48 better like this: 01:15:50 . . || 01:15:52 . . || 01:15:53 . || . 01:15:56 . || . 01:15:58 || . . 01:16:00 || . . 01:16:28 hmm 01:16:39 doesn't it go . . || three times after that 01:16:44 and then cycles from . || . 01:16:45 no 01:16:55 after that, the ladder "falls through the floor" 01:17:00 || . . 01:17:02 hehe 01:17:03 || . . 01:17:08 | . . . 01:17:13 oh 01:17:16 | . || 01:17:18 | . || 01:17:27 i don't get these last two 01:17:27 we have shifted one fret down 01:17:36 err 01:17:38 oh 01:17:41 the last two are supposed to be . . || 01:17:46 the position repeats 01:18:04 the ladder is back at the top 01:18:38 so the cycle is seven patterns long 01:18:41 errr 01:18:43 seven strings 01:18:43 patterns 01:18:44 yeah 01:18:48 yeah 01:18:53 and it's simple enough to vizualize 01:19:09 (you only need to vizualize the 4-string portion that actually fits on the instrument) 01:20:02 and for all modes, the cycle is the same (since all modes are generated from the same scale, just starting on different keys) 01:20:19 sure 01:21:23 you do realize an ideal model of strings 4ths apart will have as simple a pattern for the scales? 01:21:53 it's just played a bit differently. 01:21:59 wel 01:21:59 well 01:22:14 part of the prettiness and symmetry here is that the scale is split into two mostly symmetrical parts 01:22:18 look at the major again: 01:22:19 O O OO 01:22:21 O O OO 01:22:24 the two halves are identical! 01:22:37 you can't have that when you split it into 4ths 01:22:57 o o o 01:22:59 o o o 01:23:01 o o 01:23:05 on guitar 01:23:17 you can't split 7 in half 01:23:22 it's prime 01:23:40 you can split a subset of superset of it 01:23:44 in your case 7+1 01:23:50 in guitar's case 7+2 01:24:10 i don't think you'll get this symmetry with a 7+2 split 01:24:23 i mean, the symmetry around a 5th is not just a coincidence 01:24:31 the notes a fifth apart actually have similar "color" 01:24:45 1st and 5th are "the base" 01:24:48 o o o 01:24:48 o o o 01:24:50 oo 01:24:52 actually 01:24:54 sorry 01:25:12 3rd and 7th are "color", they define the character of a chord if we're playing a chord 01:25:16 the major scale has a lot of interesting properties, yes 01:25:19 maybe "character" rather than "color" 01:26:05 also 01:26:06 o o o 01:26:12 is a pain to play on the guitar :) 01:26:25 :D 01:26:27 well 01:26:28 guitar is not really meant for that 01:26:32 i have 25 frets 01:26:40 depends where you play 01:26:41 normally it's one finger per fret 01:26:44 and if it's acoustic or not 01:26:44 well, sure 01:26:54 i mean 01:27:02 if it's not acoustic, it depends on where you play :D 01:27:14 but yeah, it is hell. 01:27:43 i also have dropped a tuning, which adds a bit more hell 01:27:53 because you have two points of asymmetry 01:27:57 well not asymmetry 01:28:04 but... illogicality 01:28:06 dunno 01:28:13 yeah 01:28:24 how does drop A work? 01:28:33 aeadf#b 01:28:38 I know that some people who play primarily melody and not chords tune in all fourths 01:28:48 oh... ouch :) 01:28:58 dropped is for playing power chords easily. 01:29:09 right 01:29:14 looks cool or something 01:29:24 the annoying thing on guitar is that for chords, you want a specialized tuning 01:29:25 dunno, i've never really been into the popular part of band stuff 01:29:29 but for melody, you want a regular tuning 01:29:39 so you get a weird hybrid 01:29:40 yep 01:29:57 mandolin players resolve it by mostly sticking to the melody 01:30:15 (and in the styles where they mostly play chords, often retune) 01:30:33 well i only do power chords, so i could easily do with pure 4ths 01:30:55 but i only play in a band, and i'm the only mathematician there :P 01:31:29 pure 5ths work for power chords unless you want the octave there, too 01:31:46 for power chords you want 5-4-5-4-5-4 :) 01:31:59 but that's just silly 01:32:03 (maybe not) 01:32:05 44444 is actually nicer 01:32:31 because 0|2|2 is as easy to play as 0|0|0 01:32:31 hmm 01:32:31 you prolly don't get my notation 01:32:33 like 01:32:52 fret in lowest string|...|fret in highest string 01:32:56 relative fret 01:33:11 i understand 01:33:11 0|0|0 is with 5-4-5-4-5-4-5... tuning 01:33:22 but people use drop d often 01:33:24 yarrr i guess you understand english too 01:33:30 exactly because they think 0|0|0 is easier than 0|2|2 01:33:31 yeah 01:33:59 ...clearly it's easier, although clearly one should be able to play both :) 01:34:17 0|2|2 seems natural to me 01:34:25 but it's really the cornerstone of the kind of music i play 01:34:37 so... i may just be used to it 01:34:49 2|2|0 seems a lot harder to me 01:34:52 and 5-4-5-4-5-4 needs that 01:35:54 have you actually tried all 4ths? 01:36:03 no, never 01:36:05 it kinda seems like it has potential 01:36:12 yes 01:36:18 but i have invested too much time learning chords for the standard tuning 01:36:29 you do guitar? 01:36:36 (so might as well just switch to a whole different instrument for playing melody...) 01:36:39 yes 01:37:07 but i want to switch to mandolin and similarly tuned stuff 01:37:21 i would love cello 01:37:26 if that's the name 01:37:40 it's great but not having frets muddles things a bit 01:38:07 i'm planning to make my other guitar fretless 01:38:17 might be intesting 01:38:21 *interesting 01:38:52 nile does this in metal, although you probably don't appreciate that kind of stuff 01:39:10 i haven't heard it 01:39:21 fretless is fun but you pretty much say goodbye to chords 01:39:38 fairly hardcore stuff, i'm fairly sure you couldn't listen to it enough to hear any melody in it 01:39:54 eh, i like metal 01:39:59 you do? 01:40:03 umm 01:40:13 well, we may have a different view on what's metal 01:40:13 i don't listen to it, but i like it 01:40:39 i mean more like grindcore 01:40:55 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:41:55 search nile on youtube 01:41:58 if you have the time 01:42:36 they do interesting stuff with the fretless guitar in a few songs 01:42:51 unfortunately i can't name these songs, for one, the names are to long to remember anyway 01:42:59 *too 01:43:08 i don't really listen to music much 01:44:16 not *that* interesting, of course, metal is usually fairly limited, although probably one of the least limited genres 01:44:52 limitations are interesting too :) 01:45:01 true. 01:45:42