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01:31:12 <ehird> bye :)
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13:48:09 <ehird> ais523: hello
13:48:13 <ehird> Squeak just did the most retarded thing
13:48:14 <ais523> hello
13:48:16 <ehird> I had saved and quitted yesterday
13:48:18 <ehird> and I start it up
13:48:20 <ehird> and a lot of changes are gone
13:48:25 <ehird> so I've gone into the recent log
13:48:28 <ehird> and I'm selecting all non-conflicting ones
13:48:29 <ehird> by hand
13:48:37 <ehird> and then I'm gonna hope that thy apply cleanly
13:48:38 <ehird> :|
13:48:55 <ais523> ehird: now, if only you'd been saving your programs in a text file...
13:49:16 <ehird> ais523: no, i'm pretty sure this is just a squeak bug
13:49:22 <ais523> yes, exactly
13:49:25 <ehird> if my editor had a weird bug then it'd happen too, ais523
13:49:29 <ais523> you're vulnerable to bugs in a system when you're locked into it
13:49:34 <ehird> actually, it's probably that I just did it wrong
13:49:44 <ais523> and I can't see a weird bug affecting my backups as well as the original
13:49:49 <ehird> ais523: also, i have an idea - let's spin everything into an argument as to how locked-in systems suck
13:49:53 <ais523> at least, not unless it was very weird
13:50:17 <ais523> ehird: not everything, only when you're blatantly asking for it
13:52:23 <ehird> ais523: hm, there is a discussion in spanish going on in #squeak
13:52:27 <ehird> very interesting..
13:52:28 <ais523> anway, let's stop that line of discussion so as not to degenerate into another argument
13:52:39 <ais523> I've been thinking about your JS/Smalltalk mix
13:52:43 <ais523> where you just start with one object
13:52:46 <ehird> ais523: actually
13:52:50 <ehird> it's a Self/Smalltalk mix
13:52:54 <ais523> OK
13:52:56 <ehird> or an Io/Smalltalk mix
13:53:03 <ehird> but JS is a kind of class/prototype mix
13:53:21 <ais523> anyway, I planned a tarpit based on that on the way here
13:53:37 <ais523> I'm thinking of calling it Feather, because it's so lightweight compared to most Smalltalks
13:53:39 <ehird> ais523: cool
13:53:42 <ehird> my idea wasn't tarpitty
13:53:47 <ehird> but it was minimalist
13:53:53 <ehird> ais523: I wanted to keep it in the VM style
13:54:03 <ais523> my language has an unusual feature: it wouldn't work properly if it wasn't a tarpit
13:54:05 <ehird> ais523: basically, to still compile it to vm bytecode
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13:54:10 <ais523> but you can build on it as you like
13:54:15 <ehird> ais523: and then do the smalltalk thing of writing the vm in a restricted subset
13:54:18 <ehird> which can be compiled to c
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13:55:12 <ais523> the major problem with instantiating objects from objects is the mess that makes of reflection
13:55:20 <ehird> ais523: you don't
13:55:23 <ehird> you *clone* objects
13:55:36 <ais523> they're the same thing in my tarpit
13:55:41 <ais523> cloning is instantiatino
13:55:51 <ehird> ais523: yes
13:55:55 <ehird> but instantiation doesn't mean anything
13:55:57 <ehird> in a prototype system
13:56:01 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_%28programming_language%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_%28programming_language%29
13:56:04 <ehird> read 'er up
13:56:20 <ais523> I found a slightly unusual way to make it mean something, inspired by TwoDucks
13:57:28 * ehird wonders when someone who speaks english will enter #squeak and tell me wtf it just did last night
14:07:20 <Slereah_> ... mean something, inspired by twoducks?
14:07:31 <Slereah_> That's something you don't hear everyday.
14:08:32 <ais523> well, Self uses delegation in order to handle inheritance changes after the fact
14:09:01 <ais523> my method doesn't
14:09:21 <ehird> ais523: check out Io
14:10:28 <ais523> Io's method is likely what my method would be optimised into
14:10:58 <ais523> in my language, instead, when you add a method to a class (or a property, they're the same thing in my language), the program goes back in time and works out what would have happened if the change was made when the object was created
14:11:04 <ais523> s/class/object/
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14:49:06 <Slereah_> Guys, in Batman Begins.
14:49:27 <ehird> <Slereah_> Guys, in Batman Begins.
14:49:37 <Slereah_> Why doesn't the microwaves fry the people, and why are they worried about hallucinogens instead of about breathing raw boiling water
14:49:41 <ehird> <ehird> <Slereah_> Guys, in Batman Begins.
14:49:57 <Slereah_> Those people have no priorities.
14:50:56 <ehird> <Slereah_> Those people have no priorities.
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15:26:45 <ais523> hmm... I think Feather has to be lazy, to prevent it infinite-looping in loads of common cases
15:27:28 <Slereah_> Feather?
15:27:50 <ais523> it's an esolang I'm planning, based on Smalltalk, Io and TwoDucks
15:28:01 <ais523> but I'm trying to get it down to the computable level
15:28:15 <ais523> the problem is dealing sensibly with causation loops
15:29:50 <Slereah_> Need any flux capacitatorN
15:29:59 <ais523> I doubt it would help
15:30:12 <ais523> the problem is this:
15:30:15 <ais523> say you define an Array class
15:30:33 <ais523> then you want to retroactively change the clone method on the original object to do something involving Arrays
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19:10:14 <Slereah_> There was a link posted here once, about what was said to be a simple introduction to pi calculus
19:10:18 <Slereah_> Does someone still have it?
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19:32:57 <AnMaster> Slereah_, hm pi caculus?
19:33:10 <AnMaster> related to the famous irrational number in any way?
19:33:31 <Slereah_> Pi calculus.
19:33:31 <Slereah_> No.
19:33:31 <Slereah_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_calculus
19:34:02 <AnMaster> seems complex
19:34:19 <Slereah_> I'm trying to read the original paper, but I'm not familiar with calculus of communicating systems.
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19:36:46 <Slereah_> It's apparently based on communicating informations between participants through links.
19:39:10 <Slereah_> And apparently restrictions of informations along some links
19:40:17 <Slereah_> Problem is, I'm not understanding much of the notation.
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20:25:52 <AnMaster> Slereah_, interesting
20:26:28 <AnMaster> Slereah_, grep the logs maybe?
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20:32:39 <Slereah_> AnMaster : Already tried
20:56:05 <Slereah_> Hell, there's actually books on pi calculus on emule
20:56:23 <Slereah_> I think it's because apparently, it's used a lot in models for economic thingies.
20:56:47 * ais523 wonders what happened to ehird
20:56:55 <Slereah_> Eaten by a grue.
20:57:06 <ais523> that would explain the no route to host
20:57:16 <ais523> you can't get decent Internet access from inside a grue
21:00:16 <Slereah_> "Robert Milner Web hottest videos personal player"
21:00:29 <ais523> is that spam?
21:00:29 <Slereah_> I suppose that isn't the pi calculus book I was looking for.
21:00:34 <Slereah_> Yes, yes it is
21:01:02 <Slereah_> emule takes your researched terms and returns porn spam, even if it makes no sense
21:01:19 <ais523> what sort of strange website is that?
21:01:40 <Slereah_> Emule, the peer to peer software.
21:24:26 <GregorR> http://www.qdb.us/167654
21:25:12 <ais523> wow, I think that's the first time I've been pastebinned
21:27:00 <Slereah_> But, this isn't funny D:
21:27:10 <ais523> presumably it was to GregorR
21:27:18 <ais523> GregorR: explain?
21:32:07 <ihope> A pi calculus book? I was about to say it sounded interesting, but then I realized that pi calculus isn't pi and calculus.
21:32:55 <Slereah_> Or pie and calculus.
21:34:12 <ihope> You know, I think I know why I'm not writing a proof of the intermediate value theorem right now.
21:35:02 <Slereah_> You're a nerd?
21:36:06 <ihope> Would people who aren't nerds be writing a proof of the intermediate value theorem right now?
21:36:55 <Slereah_> No. Which is why I gave it as a reason.
21:37:12 <kar8nga> yes
21:37:22 <kar8nga> actually there are people who would do
21:37:28 <kar8nga> they are called mathematicans
21:37:37 <Slereah_> But mathematicians are nerds.
21:38:23 <kar8nga> then describe me your definition of nerd, please
21:39:50 <Slereah_> See : kar8nga
21:40:13 <kar8nga> good point *g
21:41:55 <kar8nga> but I think that went a bit by me (at least by the definition secured at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerd)
21:42:07 <kar8nga> I'm off to sports and check back later
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21:52:42 <lament> mathematicians don't normally write proofs of the intermediate value theorem
21:54:52 <Slereah_> What are they doing?
21:57:09 <ihope> Proof of the Intermediate Value Theorem: if there were an excluded value, the set of excluded values would be open, which is impossible.
21:57:59 <ihope> Make that "open and non-empty"/
21:59:03 <Slereah_> But, that uses the excluded middle, which isn't a constructive proof D:
22:01:40 <ihope> The excluded middle isn't a constructive proof?
22:01:54 <ihope> Oh.
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22:28:45 <kar8nga> well, that discussed the version on the reals, which is not really showing the point - I prefer the topological version
22:29:26 <ihope> How does that go?
22:29:53 <kar8nga> know what a topology is?
22:30:00 <ihope> Yes.
22:30:48 <kar8nga> well, then take f: (X,T) -> (Y,S)
22:31:02 <ihope> Assume f is continuous, then?
22:31:08 <kar8nga> yes
22:31:10 <kar8nga> X the space
22:31:18 <kar8nga> T the topology on X
22:31:59 <kar8nga> f is continous with respect to T an S if forall A in S: f^{-1}(A)\in T
22:32:05 <kar8nga> sorry for the tex notation
22:32:35 * ihope nods
22:32:49 <kar8nga> so continuity is just a topology preserving mapping
22:32:58 <ihope> What's the topological version of the sentence, then?
22:33:11 <kar8nga> of which one?
22:34:36 <ihope> The intermediate value theorem.
22:34:51 <ihope> "For every continuous function f from [a,b] to a subset of R, the image of f contains all real numbers from f(a) to f(b)", I suppose.
22:35:17 <kar8nga> yes
22:35:32 <kar8nga> just take the "natural" topologies on R
22:36:04 <kar8nga> which are based on open sets: I think in R this is called the \epsilon-\delta criterion
22:36:27 <kar8nga> f: A -> B cont (A,B \subset R) <=>
22:36:27 <ihope> The ordinary, usual, common, standard, regular topology on R? :-)
22:36:33 <kar8nga> yes
22:36:58 <ihope> Oh, it's just the intermediate value theorem stated topologically?
22:37:16 <kar8nga> it's a bit more general
22:37:28 <kar8nga> because R is strictly ordered
22:37:40 <kar8nga> so you can speak about something like "intermediate value"
22:38:08 <kar8nga> think of topologies on function spaces
22:38:56 <kar8nga> they are far more unamenable to such analysis: which function is bigger? f(x)=1 or f(x)=x^2 ?
22:39:11 * ihope nods
22:39:47 <kar8nga> but you can still have a topology there and therefore continuous functions
22:40:12 <kar8nga> the whole point of continuous function is in the end that you can do the following:
22:40:41 <kar8nga> lim x->y f(x) = f(lim x -> y) = f(y)
22:40:55 <kar8nga> well, easy on to visualize on R
22:41:15 * ihope nods
22:41:30 <kar8nga> but a topology allows for a more general notion of convergence and then you are really happy of you have somewhere continuous functions
22:41:42 <kar8nga> hope that explained a bit the thing
22:41:55 <ihope> Yes, it did.
22:42:29 <kar8nga> other question
22:42:34 <kar8nga> the reason why I came here
22:43:04 <kar8nga> is anyone here working at the moment at any objectoriented esolangs?
22:43:21 <ais523> depends if you consider Smalltalk-like languages object-oriented
22:43:36 * oerjan likes the topological form (1) the image of a connected set under a continuous function is connected (2) a subset of R is connected iff it contains every value between any two elements
22:43:37 <ihope> Object-oriented esolangs. Fun stuff.
22:43:50 <ihope> Let's make some object-oriented topological esolang, shall we? :-P
22:44:26 <oerjan> (1) is not restricted to R of course
22:44:39 <ihope> Ah, that is a nice form.
22:45:11 <Slereah_> I'm reading and readin
22:45:20 <Slereah_> But I still don't know what the fuck is an object :o
22:45:40 <kar8nga> well, but (1) only again works on strictly ordered spaces
22:45:52 <kar8nga> consider a holomorphic function
22:46:17 <kar8nga> C->C
22:46:23 <kar8nga> well, sorry, there it works
22:46:25 <kar8nga> in a way
22:46:36 <kar8nga> because C is separable
22:46:59 <kar8nga> I concede: (1) works in any separable topological space
22:47:00 <oerjan> kar8nga: no, it works for any topological space.  it's just that connected sets may be rare in some spaces
22:47:12 <ihope> Slereah_: I'd define an object as a value in memory that belongs to some class.
22:47:54 <ihope> The class lists its properties (but not their values) and defines its methods.
22:48:22 <kar8nga> oerjan: could be - now is the point where I would have to look up my old notes (topology is not my speciality, I admit)
22:49:10 <kar8nga> ais523: smalltalk is definitely object-oriented for me
22:49:28 <ais523> well, ehird's making a smalltalk-like language which is possibly not an esolang
22:49:32 <ihope> Gee. I'm having a sudden urge to integrate Brownian motion. :-P
22:49:34 <oerjan> the proof is really simple: if the image is not connected then it can be divided into two relatively open sets.  but then so must the domain.
22:49:37 <kar8nga> but it doesn't have to be class-based
22:49:38 <ais523> and I'm thinking about a smalltalk-like language which is definitely an esolang
22:49:43 <kar8nga> ihope: ever done?
22:49:56 <ihope> kar8nga: what ever done?
22:50:06 <ihope> Has it ever been done, you're asking?
22:50:44 <oerjan> (by taking their inverses)
22:50:53 <kar8nga> I took the course 2 years ago, so I remember .... - no, I asked if you ever took stochastic calculus?
22:51:27 <kar8nga> oerjan: I remember - thanks!
22:51:45 <ihope> If I've ever taken it? No, I'm in high school.
22:52:15 <kar8nga> ais523: any links/resources yet?
22:52:23 <ais523> no
22:52:25 <ais523> it's just in my head
22:52:40 <ais523> it's like Smalltalk, only objects and classes are merged (like in Io), and inheritance is done by time-travel
22:52:47 <ais523> oh, and it starts with only one object
22:53:53 <kar8nga> bootstrap with one object - remembers me of: beware of the god object
22:54:22 <kar8nga> so it's more like self, than smalltalk?
22:54:26 <ais523> yes
22:54:51 <ais523> but ehird and I have been discussing smalltalk for the last couple of days in about 5 different channels
22:56:06 <kar8nga> I think I saw somewhere some bits of that
22:56:38 <kar8nga> I'm more leaning to the metaobject approach: like in the piumata papers
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23:14:05 * ihope whistles: f(0) is 0, f(1) is selected randomly from a standard normal distribution, f(0.5) is... hmm, I've forgotten
23:14:44 <ais523> ?
23:15:23 <ihope> I'm trying to remember that method I supposedly thought of for computing Brownian motion.
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23:16:44 <ihope> I guess you ought to calculate the standard deviation of the difference between f(x) and f(x+c) given the standard deviation of the difference between f(x) and f(x+1).
23:18:42 <Slereah_> ihope : Try to make regions of particles with lowering entropy!
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