00:13:30 -!- evincar has joined. 00:14:07 It's been a while, eh? 00:14:19 Who are you? 00:14:24 :D 00:15:54 hi evincar 00:16:25 Slereah_: Ha. Bloody. Ha. 00:16:42 So yeah, hi, everybody. 00:20:31 Then again, I don't remember 00:33:13 evincar cracked corn, and I don't care. 00:33:36 Sho you right. 00:33:42 evincar - I don't care. 00:34:01 ehird: So I take it you stopped caring enough to make that interpreter? ^_^ 00:34:11 evincar: I kinda, er, lost it. 00:34:14 I believe. 00:34:16 Ha. 00:34:20 It's okay, I didn't finish mine, either. 00:34:31 I just got lazy when it came time to implement BECOME and ESCAPE. 00:34:43 Also, I didn't feel like coming up with semantics for ESCAPE. 00:46:52 -!- SirGeo has changed nick to Sgeo. 00:57:45 -!- evincar has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.82 [Firefox 2.0.0.14/2008040413]"). 01:04:22 Hmm 01:04:27 I found the Zen in Smalltalk 01:04:28 ProtoObject subclass: #ProtoObject 01:07:21 * Sgeo automatically goes to the #ProtoObject channel 01:07:42 Can't help it, it began with # 01:08:12 * Sgeo joins # 01:08:25 Sgeo: ################################################### 01:08:35 # is fun. 01:08:37 that'll keep him busy for a while 01:08:37 * ################################################### :Nick/channel is temporarily unavailable 01:08:42 oh, too long 01:08:46 try ########## 01:08:52 #, ##, ###, ####, #####, ######, ########, #########. 01:11:56 * ############### :Cannot send to channel 01:12:37 Indeed 01:13:41 Interesting. 01:14:09 Ask SWMTBot to release it. :-P 01:15:34 * ################### :You can't join that many channels 01:15:40 Bye you guys. See me in any channel starting with a #. 01:15:44 Preferably with 10 or less of 'em 01:15:47 Join me! 01:15:47 -!- ehird has left (?). 01:23:39 -!- ehird has joined. 01:29:07 zoooooooom 01:29:17 Zooooooooom? 01:29:21 ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 01:29:27 Hmm, that's not quite right. Zoooooooom? 01:38:01 Bye for today :) 01:38:16 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:42:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:17:09 -!- olsner has joined. 03:13:12 -!- revcompgeek has joined. 03:13:12 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:13:21 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 03:44:16 -!- GregorR has quit ("Leaving"). 04:02:27 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:07:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:08:34 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:26:34 -!- revcompgeek has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 3.0b5/2008032619]"). 05:19:45 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:15:00 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 07:01:25 -!- Iskr has joined. 07:31:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Unisex."). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:30:14 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:51:13 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 10:20:32 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:21:43 -!- GregorR has joined. 10:42:47 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:43:11 -!- GregorR has joined. 11:28:38 -!- Judofyr has joined. 11:35:49 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 12:40:54 -!- Corun has joined. 12:49:34 -!- ehird_ has joined. 12:50:18 So 12:55:08 -!- ehird_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:22:02 -!- ehird has joined. 13:49:45 Osk. 14:25:51 irc.slashnet.org, channel #nomic? 14:42:43 ihope: Thanks. 15:06:06 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:06:17 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 16:16:43 -!- Tritonio has joined. 16:37:30 -!- oklopol has joined. 17:16:02 okokokoko 17:18:46 okokokokokoko 17:19:07 -!- timotiis has joined. 17:30:15 ok? 17:30:35 ok? 17:31:44 ook ook 17:33:15 ofofofofofofofofofofo 17:33:36 -!- Judofyr has quit. 17:35:18 Okolopo. 17:35:43 Ca 17:36:14 zonyfo 17:36:56 Un pez dice al otro, "¿Qué hace tu papá?" El otro le responde, "Nada. 17:37:14 mi'e .Eli,at.xrd. 17:38:47 mu bise vatme do mitme luu kacmo mo 17:41:43 eljest rappakalja 17:42:02 now whaz that mean? 17:44:58 oklopol: mi'e ... gah, I forgot the quoting rules 17:45:04 I FORGOT THE LITTLE LOJBAN I KNOW :( 17:45:34 ehird: well i know what you said, wondering about olsner 17:45:48 oklopol: only gibberish 17:45:50 although i'd say xyrd 17:46:19 oklopol: I was trying to say "I say 'I am called Elliott Hird'" 17:46:21 I used to be able to do that 17:46:41 oklopol: anyway, we should invent a concatenative natural language ... but like Jo 17:46:42 y 17:46:44 with [quotations] 17:47:27 ehird: what was wrong with what you said? 17:47:33 fix ("I was trying to say '" ++) 17:47:41 oklopol: i is Elliott Hird os I called am o I say 17:47:47 stack-based concat! 17:47:49 (translate into:) 17:47:56 ["Elliott Hird" I called am] I say 17:49:02 ah 17:49:19 ehird: oklopol: I was trying to say "I say 'I am called Elliott Hird'" <<< i didn't really manage to read this 17:49:42 but wait... 17:49:56 i'm not sure about quoting either actually :D 17:50:58 lu ... l'iu 17:51:01 *li'ui 17:51:05 *li'u 17:51:10 hard key to press 17:52:47 oklopol: fuckit, the highlight ends at <<< again 17:52:49 HOW does that work 17:52:54 ehird: oklopol: I was trying to say "I say 'I am called Elliott Hird'" <<< i didn't really manage to read this 17:52:55 say that 17:52:57 with a space in front 17:55:21 umm 17:55:31 i don't know how to put a space in front 17:57:42 oklopol: like this 17:57:44 ' a' 17:57:48 You hit the space bar. 17:57:51 Then put the message. 17:58:03 okay 17:58:06 i'll do that. 17:58:07 a 17:58:09 done 18:00:43 Hmm. 18:01:12 What, your client automatically removes spaces in front? 18:01:29 yes 18:02:00 Interesting. 18:02:02 has probably saved many people from total embarrassment. 18:02:25 Putting a space in front is indeed very embarrassing. 18:02:31 i don't really see wtf the reason could be, perhaps they just wanted to add random functionality 18:03:00 oklopol: very funny 18:03:04 ehird: oklopol: I was trying to say "I say 'I am called Elliott Hird'" <<< i didn't really manage to read this 18:03:08 you actually have a space in front of that 18:03:08 :| 18:03:31 umm... k 18:03:39 in front of what exactly? 18:03:56 oklopol: let me show you 18:03:59 __ehird: oklopol: I was trying to say "I say 'I am called Elliott Hird'" <<< i didn't really manage to read this 18:04:02 the __ at the start are spaces 18:04:08 you say your client strps spaces at the beginning of messages 18:04:15 but you just sent one with a space at the beginning! 18:04:36 a-ha, well that implies there's something weird going on when i highlight someone with tab 18:04:38 let's retry 18:04:42 ehird: tabbed 18:04:46 ehird: non-tabbed 18:04:52 is there a space before the first no? 18:04:53 *one 18:04:56 hello everyone. can someone explain to me some things about gpg? 18:05:07 oklopol: nope 18:05:12 hmm 18:05:14 Tritonio: maybe. 18:05:15 (whenever you can) :-) 18:05:29 ehird: i shall test <<< then, is there a space? 18:05:53 oklopol: nope 18:06:01 ehird, I have subkeys related questions. 18:06:32 ehird: well i have no idea, perhaps mirc just occasionally removes the space, although it always shows the message without it on my screen. 18:06:41 Tritonio: that's nice 18:06:55 ;-D 18:13:53 -!- oklofok has joined. 18:15:54 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:39:44 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:00:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:04:01 test 19:04:12 hi oerjan 19:04:17 What was the test for? 19:04:23 space in front 19:04:35 hm the logs don't show 19:05:18 oh you didn't see the discussion before we both entered 19:06:24 ah it's in the tunes log 19:08:46 * pikhq is off hold in Agora. Wheee. 19:09:43 no holds barred anymore 19:10:37 LMAO 19:17:10 pikhq: Seen Duck & Platypuss? 19:17:13 *Platypuses 19:17:19 It's been epic. 19:18:21 pikhq: also 19:18:24 IRCNomic is now called Canada 19:18:26 so watch your words 19:18:33 -!- Corun has quit ("tired"). 19:18:43 And you're in #ircnomic and have not OPTOUT'd -- you're not former ;) 19:19:08 * oerjan blames Canada. Someone had to. 19:20:02 * oerjan realizes it's a long time since he saw that movie. 19:20:08 ehird: Urgh. That's painful. 19:20:26 pikhq: Hahaha. 19:20:47 pikhq: But I don't really like ircnomic any more either 19:20:53 pikhq: HaskellNomic is where it's at. 19:21:05 *shrug* 19:23:43 * oerjan blinks 19:24:04 Thou Wicked Tempter Thou 19:24:16 oerjan: Haha, I'm writing it actually. 19:24:17 Soon. 19:24:44 s/Wicked/Treacherous/ 19:25:12 p1 `bites` p2 = (p1{score=(score p1)+1}, p2{score=(score p2)-1}) 19:25:16 oerjan: write that to be more elegant 19:25:30 bites :: Player -> Player -> (Player,Player) -- of course 19:26:01 record syntax is rarely elegant :( 19:26:16 oerjan: indeed, but we're gonna have to use it if anyone may augment the structure 19:26:33 oerjan: actually, maybe `bites` should be in the Nomic monad, or something, since it'll never be used in functional form 19:26:36 and that removes the ugly tuple 19:26:37 agreed? 19:27:09 p1 `bites` p2 = do success <- p1 `canBite` p2; if success then damage p2 2 else return () 19:27:11 that's not too bad 19:27:30 oerjan: comments on that? 19:28:02 use when 19:28:18 oerjan: 'use when'? 19:28:19 oh 19:28:30 when :: (Monad m) -> m Bool -> m a -> m () 19:28:31 or something 19:28:32 right? 19:28:46 Bool -> m a -> m () 19:28:57 oerjan: OK 19:28:59 so 19:29:20 p1 `bites` p2 = do { success <- p1 `canBite` p2; when success $ damage p2 2 } 19:29:25 oerjan: is that what you had in mind? 19:29:32 when (p1 `canBite` p2) (damage p2 2) 19:29:34 yeah 19:29:37 ihope: nope 19:29:40 takes a Bool 19:29:44 whenM would be nice I guess 19:29:49 when takes a Bool? 19:29:54 whenM c x = do v <- c; when v x 19:29:57 Hmm. 19:29:59 ihope: yes 19:30:02 forall (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => Bool -> m () -> m () 19:30:34 btw, i am _not_ promising to give in to the temptation. 19:30:57 oerjan: :-) 19:31:17 oerjan: It would make sure your program actually compiles at proposal-time. 19:31:23 oerjan: So proposals would be typed. 19:31:41 Also, if a proposal causes another proposal to be invalidly typed, players can only vote on one. 19:32:00 If it causes another to be invalidly typed? 19:32:32 p1 writes a proposal using FloobDoob 19:32:43 p2 writes a proposal that removes FloobDoob and all the functions using it. 19:32:54 Now, these can both result in a valid system, but not both. 19:32:55 (XOR.) 19:32:59 So, you can't vote for both proposals. 19:33:10 How does a proposal remove FloobDoob? 19:33:32 ihope: Um, by removing the line saying 'data FloobDoob = ....'? 19:34:01 How does the system know that it's removing the line defining FloobDoob? Execute it safely and see if it's still there, I guess? 19:34:28 oerjan: can you translate what ihope is saying, i can't tell 19:34:30 it's gibberish 19:34:37 ihope: When you change a file in a proposal, it runs ghc on it. 19:34:47 If that succeeds, it's well-typed and accepted. 19:34:58 Ah, wait. 19:35:01 No, I think you're right. 19:35:09 OK, there's no way to solve the don't-mix issue. 19:38:29 actually this might make for some interesting voting strategies - if a proposal only takes effect if it gives a well-formed program 19:38:40 & typed 19:38:59 oerjan: yes, but you can do things like 19:39:04 which could depend on previous proposals 19:39:05 propose two proposals which on their own are well-typed 19:39:09 oerjan: but together, are invalidly-typed 19:39:12 oerjan: and pass them both 19:39:19 yes, so the last one will not take effect 19:39:21 oerjan: then, it'd just reject them at activation-time 19:39:22 but still 19:39:31 oerjan: so, really, the type-checking-at-proposal-creation is just a convenience 19:39:38 oerjan: and it helpfully removes all spammers 19:39:43 oerjan: unless spammers spam with valid haskell code now 19:39:52 heh 19:41:19 Make sure the spammers don't create an account, also. :-P 19:52:39 ihope: fun captcha: 19:52:44 'Enter some well-typed Haskell code:' 19:52:47 (\x -> x) would work 19:52:49 id would work 19:52:51 'a' would not 19:53:04 Well, rather, it'd be 'Enter some *compilable* Haskell code:' 19:53:19 So (\x -> x) and id wouldn't work? 19:53:48 make registration happen by writing an appropriate action in the Player monad 19:53:56 or something 19:54:58 ihope: they would 19:55:03 (\x -> x) is perfectly compilable 19:55:04 oerjan: of course 19:55:21 oerjan: PerlNomic ties %players to the right file, creates a Player object, then adds it to %players 19:55:24 oerjan: so that's not a new concept 19:55:40 the adduser just creates a proposal to do the right thing in the Nomic monad 19:55:46 (btw -- bites :: Player -> Player -> Nomic ()) 19:55:49 ehird: but 'a' isn't compilable? 19:56:14 i meant for the actual text the player writes to be that action :D 19:56:28 ihope: Uh, why don't you try? 19:56:53 __registrationCheck = (\x -> x) 19:56:54 compiles 19:56:56 __registrationCheck = id 19:56:57 compiles 19:56:58 __registrationCheck = a 19:56:59 doesn't 19:57:06 You said 'a', not a. 19:57:10 ihope: Oh. 19:57:12 Sorry. 19:57:33 What if it's a Freudian concept spammer, though? :-P 19:58:10 -!- Judofyr has joined. 20:02:08 ihope: Beats me. 20:02:14 I could require a minimal length 20:23:00 -!- AnMaster has quit ("will be back in a bit"). 20:31:05 -!- AnMaster has joined. 20:38:37 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:45:14 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:54:37 Hahahah, I totally forgot that my new system has KVM support, so even Qemu is fffffffffast! ^^ 20:57:48 hm 20:58:20 * SimonRC wonders why he dislikes Nomics so much. 20:59:21 I think it is the way that there are actually things that can't change. 21:00:08 The immutable rules in the default ruleset? 21:00:11 -!- RedDak has joined. 21:00:21 SimonRC: There isn't. 21:00:31 The immutable rules can be changed by a unanimous vote. 21:00:49 but there are some things that can't change. 21:01:10 Are were you referring more to the psychological fact that certain properties of the game will never by changed by the majority of the people playing? :) 21:01:30 no 21:01:46 like: people respond to information they receive in the past, and their response affects the future, not the other way round 21:02:19 so you couldn't make a rule that made the game "bounce" off a certain ppoint in time and "fold" backwards through time 21:02:25 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:03:03 and if you have a rule against laws that 21:03:17 SimonRC: you could make a rule like that 21:03:23 um, wrong button 21:03:24 it would just, unsuprisingly, fail to have an effect 21:03:45 SimonRC: Maybe codenomics would be more to your liking: Everything in the program can be changed. 21:03:52 And the outside world doesn't exist, so there's nothing you can't change 21:04:21 In ordinary rules: you can change any "rule" but you can't change the universe they're running in. 21:04:51 SimonRC: In codenomics: you can change any 'rule' (program) and you can change the program 21:04:52 :P 21:05:03 ehird: ok 21:05:51 actually my objection is rather flattened by the fact that people can disobey rules 21:06:00 it's much worse with physics 21:06:13 SimonRC: yeah, its impossible to disobey a program .. Unless you have a really weird language :P 21:06:32 Hahahaha, let's define an (impossible-to-play) Nomic where the physical laws of the universe are voted on! :P 21:06:37 well in that case "disobeying" the program is obeying it, in a correct implementation 21:06:41 GregorR: yeah! 21:07:14 I object more to a "you can change anything" attitude in languages actually. 21:07:31 there has to be something immutable at the bottom, or there can't be anything 21:07:39 SimonRC: You'll HATE Smalltalk. 21:07:45 smalltalk? 21:07:49 ... 21:07:53 SimonRC just said 'Smalltalk?' 21:07:54 nah, that's fine 21:08:02 SimonRC: smalltalk can change >anything< 21:08:11 even the 'immutable' stuff since it's written in a subset of ST ;) 21:08:17 depending on the implementation, you either can't change the virtual machine, or... 21:08:27 ... you can't change the computer hardware 21:08:29 Yeah, the underlying bytecode is immutable. 21:08:33 -!- oklopol has quit (No route to host). 21:08:43 And the accessible invariant procedures are just that. 21:08:53 you can't have a completely circular interpreter 21:09:00 SimonRC: You can change the VM in smalltalk 21:09:01 Or rather 21:09:03 in Squeak 21:09:05 SimonRC: OH 21:09:07 SimonRC: MY 21:09:09 SimonRC: FUCKING 21:09:09 i think you just have to tell it to recompile the irhgt part 21:09:10 SimonRC: GOD 21:09:13 GregorR: What the 21:09:18 SimonRC: I'm going to go write a completely-circular interpreter. 21:09:24 GregorR: ... All that for that? 21:09:26 SimonRC: It won't run, but it'll be AWESOME 21:09:30 GregorR: And someone beat you to it. 21:09:30 it would run infinitely slowly 21:09:37 John McCarthy beat you to it, in particular. 21:09:41 ehird: D_8 21:09:41 In the 50s. 21:09:43 *D-8 21:09:51 With lisp. 21:09:51 ehird: yeah, but that wasn't implemented completely circularly 21:10:01 SimonRC: Yes it was... there was no implementation for it for a while. 21:10:10 SimonRC: Just because someone manually translated it after doesn't make it any less circular 21:10:22 there was a definition that wasn't in lisp too 21:10:41 SimonRC: no there wasn't 21:11:06 if nothing else, there was the definition that one would come up with by trying to figure out the language from its self-interpreter 21:11:12 i.e. in one's head 21:12:17 and just to show that being an atheist doesn't stop you being irrational: 21:12:39 I also believe there are some immutable rules at the bottom of the universe too. 21:12:55 whatever certain physicists hyupothesise 21:13:13 an uncountable stack of rules might work too 21:13:14 maybe 21:23:41 and just to show that being an atheist doesn't stop you being irrational: 21:23:43 hehehe 21:23:54 the theists have enough fuel against us already don'tchathink :-) 21:26:08 hmm 21:26:43 IMO monroe was irrisposible when he drew friday's xkcd 21:27:04 I mean, after the rollercoaster chess incident... 21:27:32 :-P 21:35:14 Challenge: Write a BF self-interpreter and convince us that it's actually a self-interpreter for some other language. :-P 21:36:12 Make it reasonable, of course. 21:36:24 This interpreter is actually an ook interpreter 21:36:32 But instead of ooks, it has symbols. 21:37:26 Ook is the same language. 21:37:46 Especially if it uses symbols. 21:37:57 the obvious solution is of course to make a polyglot that _is_ also a self-interpreter for some other language 21:38:39 Challenge: don't say "I refuse" 21:38:58 oerjan: but would that be a BF self-interpreter? 21:39:06 ihope: Yus 21:39:07 it could be 21:39:10 I guess so. 21:39:50 Yeah. Take a reasonable language and come up with a reasonable self-interpreter for BF that's also a reasonable self-interpreter for the other language. 21:41:16 ihope: Not hard 21:41:22 Just get a language that doesn't use +-,.[]<> 21:41:25 and write a self-interp in it 21:41:28 Then munge the code together 21:41:55 No useless comments allowed. :-) 21:42:25 ihope: Well sheesh 21:42:42 :-P 21:44:32 Did I recommend my latesd obsessional game here yet? 21:44:54 I don't think so. 21:45:43 -!- oklopol has joined. 21:46:24 it's ROM CHECK FAIL 21:46:50 http://www.farbs.org/games.html 21:47:11 it's like a dozen classic games all got mixed up 21:47:20 alt-enter for fullscreen 21:49:24 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection reset by peer). 21:50:07 arrows to move, space to fire 21:50:27 SimonRC: You did. 21:50:40 ah, ok 21:51:13 Incidentally, the guy who made that game also made a Python binding to a C++ library that is now maintained by someone I know, despite them being a Python newbie and not knowing /any/ C++ 21:51:17 (Python is his first language) 21:51:27 The guy who made the library (and that game) was the one who suggested it. 21:51:32 One question: Double you tee EFF? 21:52:08 WTF at what? 21:52:33 you mean, that a noob is maintaining a library? 21:52:39 SimonRC: Why the maker of the library and the game would suggest that someone who only knew a little bit of Python and no C++, would maintain a Python binding to a C++ library 21:53:06 SimonRC: let me draw it 21:53:07 maybe a good way to learn? 21:53:44 Library: http://www.farbs.org/pycap.html --> It's a binding to Python of a C++ lib --> Maker of library sez to friend: 'You should maintain this!' --> Friend only knows a tiny bit of python and NO C++ --> Friend is maintaining it, by doing nothing 21:53:53 SimonRC: You must realize that this friend has no desire to learn C++ and won't. 21:54:01 So he will be totally unable to maintain it in any way. 21:55:46 -!- oklopol has joined. 21:58:17 um, so why did he maintain it then? 22:04:40 SimonRC: 'Cause the owner of the library suggested it. 22:04:44 I dunno, I thought 'WTF' too 22:04:53 But it's a great way to kill a project! 22:05:40 weird 22:06:21 'cause RCF almost likelyly uses the Python bindings for Pycap 22:06:54 SimonRC: indeed 22:06:59 SimonRC: and 22:07:03 python bindings for *popcap* 22:07:04 AKA pycap 22:07:08 AKA unmaintained ;) 22:07:37 hm 22:08:01 is this freind "W.P. van Paassen"? 22:09:17 SimonRC: err, I don't think so 22:09:18 why 22:09:28 just guessing 22:09:45 SimonRC: 'GNU/Linux (and Mac OSX) port of PopCap Games Framework ...' 22:09:50 obviously they know C++ then 22:09:51