00:00:02 lament banned him for some reason 00:00:07 and isn't unbanning him 00:00:38 KICKBAN ME DAMNIT LAMENT 00:00:43 Could be for that reason. 00:01:00 GregorR: well, he's silly 00:01:07 is that a reason to actually kickban him? i think not 00:01:56 lament: unban him 00:03:38 someguy, so why n=ehird? 00:03:42 looks like tusho finally went too far 00:03:52 oklopol, indeed 00:03:58 AnMaster: same irc bouncy thingy 00:04:02 not sure, he set it up 00:04:02 yeah, that's weird, isn't it illegal to have the same name for two kids? 00:04:16 someguy, he used n=tusho though 00:04:26 AnMaster: i guess he overrid the default then 00:04:32 which apparently is ehird, I guess 00:04:45 someguy, so you aren't as computer literate as he is? 00:05:10 AnMaster: you could say that, you could also say I'm very lazy 00:05:24 I'd call ehird pretty lazy too 00:05:35 heh 00:05:43 what with him prefering python to C and such 00:06:01 ouch, that's harsh 00:06:14 someguy, please tell him that you think cfunge is very nice 00:06:15 hehe 00:06:26 AnMaster: he probably reads logs, you know 00:06:31 ah true 00:06:50 someguy: you realize that as soon as i unban him, he would come back and ask to be banned again? 00:07:02 you know he *could* log on with a different nick 00:07:05 like his old ehird 00:07:06 lament: oh come on, he's not that silly 00:07:12 that he used before tusho 00:07:27 actually he could use tusho 00:07:35 just a different ident 00:07:46 * lament sets modes [#esoteric +b *!*n=tusho@91.105.124.*] 00:08:08 why should he have to? just unban him jeez 00:08:36 you're all nuts 00:08:42 that's my opinion 00:08:51 am i nuts? 00:08:54 lament: just unban my brother 00:08:55 lament, "all"? you mean me too? 00:09:00 No. You're all nuts except oklopol. 00:09:01 I'm not nuts! 00:09:05 !! 00:09:13 AnMaster: you so are. 00:09:17 Deewiant here isn't nuts 00:09:21 -!- lament has set channel mode: -b *!*n=tusho@91.105.124.*. 00:09:24 oklopol, no more than you are 00:09:27 BUT ARE YOU A WALNUT? 00:09:29 why would I be nuts? 00:09:32 thanks 00:09:34 * someguy tells him 00:09:37 at most I'm "nut" 00:09:41 not "nuts" 00:09:45 -!- tusho has joined. 00:09:47 AnMaster : Becayse you're dangling between my legs. 00:09:57 huh, hi someguy 00:10:01 Slereah, sod off 00:10:02 tusho : This means exactly what you think it means. 00:10:04 hi tusho 00:10:21 You will not silence the truth, AnMaster 00:10:35 Slereah, well I'm not anyway 00:10:39 i'm off i guess 00:10:41 bye tusho 00:10:44 -!- someguy has quit ("bye"). 00:10:50 huh. 00:10:51 aww why didn't he stay 00:10:52 ;P 00:11:06 it's hard being an op 00:11:07 AnMaster: i don't think my brother is interested in esolangs 00:11:12 (Regardless of how much he exists, which is none.) 00:11:16 aww bad luck 00:11:17 lament: TAKE IT OFF!! 00:11:24 um. Not in public. 00:11:28 DO IT 00:11:32 * tusho watches lament ban him for GROSS IMPERSONATION 00:11:36 i wanna see it 00:11:39 lament, well I could help sharing the burden of being an op if you want 00:11:39 removed 00:11:41 * AnMaster runs 00:12:19 tusho: here's a better idea 00:12:21 -!- lament has set channel mode: +o tusho. 00:12:25 AWESOME 00:12:25 there, now you can ban yourself 00:12:31 -!- tusho has set channel mode: -o lament. 00:12:32 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +b lament!*@*. 00:12:37 (and yes I'm op in other places, even oper on a network, so I know how irritating all those "could I be an op/oper please" questions are!) 00:12:38 xD 00:12:44 no! 00:12:51 You are doing it wrong! 00:13:02 AnMaster: am i DOING IT WRONG, though? 00:13:05 tusho, unban lament please 00:13:17 lament's brother lameguy is gonna be so pissed. 00:13:23 AnMaster: i was banning a disruptive character who bans people without warning. duh. 00:13:48 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +o oklopol. 00:13:55 let's start a new era of #esoteric, oklopol 00:14:02 one free from the draconian constraints of lament! 00:14:13 he can probably join 00:14:14 A CHAN THAT WILL LAST A THOUSAND YEAR! 00:14:21 Slereah: totally 00:14:34 oklopol: are you with me?? huh?? 00:14:35 -!- tusho has set channel mode: -o oklopol. 00:14:36 guess not 00:14:46 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +o Slereah. 00:14:57 o.o 00:15:22 well. this is cool. 00:15:29 tusho, can I have op too? 00:15:29 :) 00:15:33 AnMaster: you'll unban lam 00:15:34 ent 00:15:36 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +o oklopol. 00:15:43 sure? 00:15:45 why would I 00:15:45 Just give ops to everyone, it will be faster. 00:15:49 AnMaster: you wanted me to 00:15:54 Slereah: nah, i prefer exclusive cabals 00:16:01 tusho, I wanted him to unban you too 00:16:07 so I'm on both your sides 00:16:40 in fact I'm on my own side, the side of freedom and unbanning 00:16:46 tusho, ! 00:16:46 o.o; 00:16:58 AnMaster: we don't stand for that side here 00:17:01 FREE UNBAN TO THE PUBLIC 00:17:04 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +b AnMaster!*@*. 00:17:14 what a fitting way to go out. 00:17:16 Hm. 00:17:17 -!- tusho has set channel mode: -b AnMaster!*@*. 00:17:20 thanks 00:17:23 What if I banned everyone? 00:17:27 -!- tusho has set channel mode: -o Slereah. 00:17:29 .............. 00:17:30 good luck with that 00:17:32 :D 00:17:40 tusho, please I ask you to unban lament 00:17:44 * tusho considers writing a bot that ops just him when he joins and putting it in here, then opping it 00:18:05 tusho, there are ways to get around it using chanserv to ask you to unban yourself 00:18:14 I don't know if lament got that access 00:18:14 yeah but he's not using them 00:18:17 he has 00:18:21 ah 00:18:52 lament if you are reading the logs run: 00:18:56 /cs unban #esoteric 00:19:00 AnMaster: i doubt he cares 00:19:01 :P 00:19:05 why? 00:19:06 AnMaster: i doubt he doesn't know 00:19:20 * GregorR opens #jsmips . 00:19:29 he was one of the founders here 00:19:40 so i'm pretty sure he knows some shit about freenode 00:20:27 Guys. 00:20:42 Can we drop the whole mod thing and just discuss stupid languages? 00:20:45 Or something. 00:21:07 Slereah, agreed 00:21:20 -!- oppiebot has joined. 00:21:24 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +o oppiebot. 00:21:27 -!- tusho has changed nick to tusho_. 00:21:29 hahaha 00:21:50 -!- tusho has joined. 00:21:51 -!- oppiebot has set channel mode: +o tusho. 00:21:54 great 00:21:58 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit). 00:22:00 Fun fact : Concurency notation and BNF notation do not go well together. 00:22:01 -!- tusho_ has changed nick to tusho. 00:22:15 ok, now all we need is oppiebot to keep its connection 00:22:17 or at least 00:22:20 we need one op at all times 00:22:20 tusho, does it work for your ip only or just your nick? 00:22:25 to restore oppiebot's stuff 00:22:34 augur: err, my nick... nice exploit there 00:22:36 * tusho ponders 00:22:38 For instance, concurent process are defined by P ::= [...] | P1 | P2 | [...] 00:22:41 yeah. 00:22:59 augur: how do I check services identification? 00:23:01 slereah: im not really sure BNF is meant to model processes... 00:23:08 tusho: no fucking clue. i dontknow shit about irc. 00:23:16 No, but it is meant to describe syntax 00:23:20 And processes have a syntax 00:23:29 eh.. processes i wouldnt say have syntax 00:23:38 Pi calculus has one. 00:23:41 only code has syntax 00:23:59 The pi book get around this by making the BNF | longer than the concurrency | 00:24:05 no, pi calculus is a language that represents a model :P 00:24:11 But at a glance, it's not obvious 00:24:19 thats just silly 00:24:21 Oh stop nitpicking, you cockgoblin. 00:24:27 but theres a difference! 00:24:38 the map is not the territory! 00:24:48 Yes. 00:24:49 -!- oppiebot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:24:54 -!- oppiebot has joined. 00:24:57 But in a book, they use notations, augur 00:24:58 oh i'm op 00:25:02 -!- tusho has set channel mode: -o oklopol. 00:25:02 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oplopol. 00:25:05 :| 00:25:08 -!- oplopol has changed nick to oklopol. 00:25:08 They can't put abstract concepts in a book. 00:25:09 oplopol: ssh 00:25:11 i'll op you soon 00:25:12 They just spill out 00:25:13 once i get this working 00:25:21 thats just weird, slereah. 00:25:42 BNFs shouldnt define processes, only languages 00:25:47 Yes 00:25:53 -!- tusho has changed nick to dasf. 00:25:55 And it defines the language to express processes 00:26:00 -!- augur has changed nick to tusho_. 00:26:00 -!- tusho has joined. 00:26:03 excellent 00:26:10 -!- tusho has left (?). 00:26:10 -!- tusho has joined. 00:26:16 not so much 00:26:22 -!- tusho has left (?). 00:26:22 -!- tusho has joined. 00:26:25 It's not actually pi calculus in the chapter I'm reading, it's the more restricted "concurent processes" 00:26:26 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit). 00:26:27 haha 00:26:33 -!- tusho_ has changed nick to augur. 00:26:33 Slereah: reading that 00:26:35 err 00:26:36 book? 00:26:37 so it works then tusho? 00:26:38 are ya? 00:26:46 Indeed. 00:26:51 Slereah: good? 00:26:56 i'm going to buy it if so 00:27:21 -!- oppiebot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:27:25 -!- oppiebot has joined. 00:27:26 parents decided to buy me about $800 worth of books as a present 00:27:35 i'm so spoiled 00:27:49 -!- tusho has joined. 00:27:52 good, very good 00:27:55 -!- tusho has left (?). 00:28:00 Are you going to buy a hundred cheap books, or eight expensive ones? 00:28:06 -!- tusho has joined. 00:28:12 i wish to fuck things in the ass 00:28:14 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -b lament!*@*. 00:28:14 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit). 00:28:19 ... 00:28:20 -!- lament has joined. 00:28:25 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament. 00:28:26 loltusho. 00:28:30 -!- lament has set channel mode: -o dasf. 00:28:30 aw shit 00:28:39 i just wrote that bot for nothing! 00:28:39 -!- lament has set channel mode: -o lament. 00:28:53 what did you write it in? 00:28:54 -!- oppiebot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:29:06 lament: python, you like python right? 00:29:11 lol. dasf, you shouldn't de-opped the bot :P 00:29:19 right, i won't ban you then :) 00:29:21 how will you recover from my emotional damage lament? 00:29:27 augur: darn, that was the bug then 00:29:37 dasf: the question is when, not how 00:29:45 lament: when, then 00:29:49 never :( 00:29:55 fuck you lament 00:29:58 /kick lament 00:30:00 oh wait. 00:30:01 shit. 00:30:05 fuck you even more, lament 00:30:24 lament: how about opping me so i can ban myself for such gross conduct 00:30:36 hm 00:30:48 after last time, i think i learned not to trust you with ops 00:30:59 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o dasf. 00:31:00 lament: i was posessed by demons last time 00:31:09 damn straight 00:31:16 * AnMaster lols 00:31:41 -!- oppiebot has joined. 00:31:43 -!- dasf has set channel mode: +o oppiebot. 00:32:07 -!- tusho has joined. 00:32:12 -!- tusho has left (?). 00:32:17 -!- tusho has joined. 00:32:27 hm 00:32:30 -!- tusho has left (?). 00:32:32 -!- tusho has joined. 00:32:43 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit). 00:33:05 -!- oppiebot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:33:11 -!- oppiebot has joined. 00:33:19 -!- dasf has set channel mode: +o oppiebot. 00:33:38 -!- tusho has joined. 00:33:41 Tusho, stop being the scourge of the earth. 00:33:47 i refuse Slereah 00:35:35 -!- oppiebot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:35:44 -!- oppiebot has joined. 00:35:45 -!- tusho has left (?). 00:35:45 -!- tusho has joined. 00:35:50 interesting 00:36:18 whats tusho mean 00:36:30 -!- oppiebot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:36:40 augur: dickwad 00:36:44 -!- oppiebot has joined. 00:36:47 :( 00:36:48 -!- tusho has left (?). 00:36:49 -!- tusho has joined. 00:36:55 no, augur, it means dickwad 00:36:59 i know 00:37:00 :( 00:37:10 its too pretty a name to mean dickward 00:37:12 wad* 00:37:25 i was lying through my teeth 00:37:26 so yay 00:38:24 if urbandictionary doesn't know it, it doesn't exist 00:38:27 Tusho means tushy 00:38:30 But with an o. 00:38:33 heh 00:38:37 -!- oppiebot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:38:46 well, that is what i've always assumed 00:38:48 ::grabs slereahs tusho:: 00:38:57 Oy vey! 00:40:15 -!- oppiebot has joined. 00:40:17 -!- dasf has set channel mode: +o oppiebot. 00:40:20 -!- tusho has left (?). 00:40:20 -!- tusho has joined. 00:40:24 wtf 00:40:26 * Slereah watches X Men. 00:40:44 It is somehow incredible that it does not feature man on man sodomy, but it's still a good movie. 00:40:56 -!- tusho has left (?). 00:40:56 -!- tusho has joined. 00:40:56 -!- oppiebot has set channel mode: +o tusho. 00:40:59 excellent 00:41:00 -!- tusho has quit ("leaving"). 00:41:06 -!- dasf has changed nick to tusho. 00:41:25 so 00:41:29 oklopol: I like your new esolang 00:42:01 whats oklopols new esolang? 00:42:45 reactance 00:42:56 its not oklopols, its both of ours :P 00:43:02 whatever 00:43:05 Is it your baby? :o 00:43:09 it IS my babeh 00:43:15 its oklopol and my's babeh 00:43:22 im not sure which of us is the mother tho 00:43:31 oklopol, did i make you preggorz, or did you make me preggorz? 00:44:03 obviously it is magical 00:44:07 I think you came up with the idea. 00:44:27 So that would make you... 00:44:29 the father? 00:44:31 i came up with a lot of it, especially syntax, and oklopol provides vast insight 00:44:51 Then let me give you some advice. 00:44:54 so i spooged esocum into oklopol and he got preggorz? 00:44:59 The same I give for every new esolang. 00:45:07 its not an esolang either :P 00:45:11 Make an instruction that will play the Super Mario theme. 00:45:15 yes it is augur 00:45:19 it is not! :| 00:45:21 apart from your crappy implementation of it 00:45:24 slereah: BRILLIANT. MUST HAVE. 00:45:44 Fact : My first esolang was capable of playing the Super Mario theme. 00:45:57 Although I only made a program for the Monkey Island theme 00:46:01 Which is also acceptable. 00:46:50 tusho: what about the language do you like? 00:47:08 augur: i could make a silly game with it easily 00:47:08 :P 00:47:14 oh? 00:47:23 what sort of game? :P 00:47:35 A drinking game? 00:47:48 "Everytime an esolang is a brainfuck derivative, take a shot" 00:47:51 augur: i dunno. 00:47:59 a silly jumpy thingy. 00:48:14 tusho: reactance is mine and augur's, like straw and ob preferable, for exclusive liking of my esolangs 00:48:19 *preferably 00:48:24 ob is the one i use for the obt game 00:48:25 *bot 00:48:26 slereah: i dont think there are any other reactive esolangs 00:48:43 augur: you just admitted it's an esolang 00:48:43 congrats 00:48:49 oklopol, slereah has decided that it was you who got preggorz with reactance 00:48:58 For every original esolang, drink the whole bottle 00:49:00 tusho: you wont let it go so i might as well. 00:49:11 slereah: woo, i guess we get drunk tonight :o 00:49:22 augur: weren't you the butt receiver type exclusively? 00:49:31 yeah but not according to slereah 00:49:40 -!- ihope has joined. 00:49:40 Slereah: stop lying 00:49:42 I LOVE YOU TOO! 00:49:48 ihope: ;DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 00:50:02 Yay, I'm liked :-) 00:50:08 yes :-) 00:50:10 I LOVE MUDKIPS! 00:50:15 hi ihope 00:50:25 Ello. 00:50:34 mean op stoly my thunder 00:50:36 *stole 00:50:40 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +o oklopol. 00:50:41 o rly 00:51:00 If I mention rootnomic, I imagine I'll get banned. :-P 00:51:00 hmm 00:51:02 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +o ihope. 00:51:07 Yay! :-) 00:51:12 -!- ihope has set channel mode: -oo oppiebot tusho. 00:51:12 if oppiebot leaves 00:51:16 -!- tusho has left (?). 00:51:16 -!- tusho has joined. 00:51:20 -!- ihope has set channel mode: +o oppiebot. 00:51:25 Hmm. 00:51:25 -!- tusho has left (?). 00:51:26 -!- tusho has joined. 00:51:26 -!- oppiebot has set channel mode: +o tusho. 00:51:28 -!- tusho has set channel mode: -o ihope. 00:51:30 -!- tusho has set channel mode: -o oklopol. 00:51:32 :-P 00:51:32 :D 00:51:34 coolspam 00:52:04 anyone ever heard aza raskin talk? 00:52:11 no 00:52:13 he sounds like a kid trying to be a grownup 00:52:16 its fucking annoying 00:52:29 whatever. the stuff he does is cool 00:52:30 because theres a huge difference between a kid trying to sound mature, and actually BEING mature 00:52:42 i agree, his stuff is great, but his manner of speech is annoying 00:53:11 im actually going to be incorporating a lot of humane interface ideas into something im working on 00:53:24 Maturity is like my butt. 00:53:34 loose? 00:53:47 BUTT 00:53:53 flabby? 00:54:09 I'm too skinny to have a flabby butt. 00:54:10 Slereah: Tushy. 00:54:13 lololololololololol 00:54:20 i didn't actually think of that when i chose this name 00:54:20 :| 00:54:29 i like "tusho" 00:54:31 too-show 00:54:34 i just picked something nice looking that didn't get anything much on google 00:54:44 augur: oh, i was pronouncing it tuh-show 00:54:45 but that's nicer 00:54:47 Try XKCD 00:54:52 Oh dang, already taken 00:58:22 http://xkcd.com/437/ 01:01:11 tusho, have you watched SICP yet? 01:01:23 no 01:01:35 why not?! 01:01:52 Because it is full of urine 01:02:00 your moms full of urine 01:02:50 But not ill urine 01:02:57 Only healthy urine. 01:03:33 tusho, do you have the full syntax and evaluation model for reactance? 01:03:44 no 01:03:59 you -> #reactance and ill provide 01:04:53 so you can start writing your game. :P 01:05:10 augur: nope 01:05:11 #esoteric 01:05:22 ok, but itll clutter the place. :P 01:06:13 ok so: assignments like var = expression 01:06:20 sets var to the current value of expression 01:06:36 ok 01:06:56 var := expression creates a new variable var in the current frame if one doesnt exist 01:07:04 sort of like schemes define 01:07:15 ok 01:07:30 foo := foo 01:07:36 exp -> var is a reaction 01:07:42 did you choose := because it looks like cock and balls? 01:07:54 no, we chose := because it was a simple modification of = 01:08:02 := is common 01:08:07 anyway 01:08:07 exp -> var is a reaction ok 01:08:24 any time one of the variables in exp changes its value, var is immediately updated 01:08:25 e.g. 01:08:30 if we says x*x -> y 01:08:32 and then we did 01:08:33 x = 5 01:08:38 y is immediately updated to 25 01:08:47 yes 01:08:48 y <- x*x is equivalent 01:09:07 :-> and <-: make new scopes for their target variables 01:09:26 x = y is to x := y what y -> x is to y :-> x 01:09:46 ok 01:09:49 you also have conditional reactions like x > 5 ? x -> y : x -> z 01:10:21 which says that if x is greater then y, all changes of x's value goes into y 01:10:23 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:10:24 augur: ok 01:10:25 otherwise they go into z 01:10:30 what about functiony thingies 01:10:31 like 01:10:36 well just wait for those :p 01:10:40 mouse(x,y) -> cursor(x,y) 01:10:46 oh, those arent functiony things 01:10:55 ok so for that you have to understand shorthands 01:11:04 x, y = 1, 2 01:11:06 is shorthand for 01:11:07 x = 1 01:11:08 y = 2 01:11:13 ok 01:11:21 similarly, x,y -> z,w is short for 01:11:26 x -> z 01:11:28 y -> w 01:11:32 ok 01:11:34 yes 01:11:37 i'm familiar with that syntax 01:11:43 so doing something like 01:11:51 mouse.(x,y) -> thing.(x,y) 01:11:54 is just the same 01:12:01 mouse.x -> thing.x 01:12:02 etc? 01:12:07 mouse.y -> thing.y 01:12:08 yes 01:12:11 ok 01:12:20 mouse.(x,y) -> thing.(x/2,y/2) 01:12:22 so we allow this sort of paralleling to be deep within paranthesizing 01:12:30 that makes you have to move the mouse twice to get one move of the thing 01:12:32 right? 01:12:37 foo.(a,bar.(b,c)) is valid, for instance 01:12:50 eh.. no 01:12:56 :( 01:12:59 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 01:13:05 that would be a declarative statement, and we dont know if we're going to have declarativity 01:13:14 the targets of reactions can only be variables 01:13:16 not expressions 01:13:32 if you want thing to move half as far as mouse 01:13:38 augur: have declarativity 01:13:39 plz. 01:13:42 mouse.(x,y)/2 -> thing.(x,y) 01:13:44 mouse.(x,y) -> thing.(x/2,y/2) = my dream 01:13:47 Fun fact : The pi book talks of reaction :o 01:13:54 Although I doubt it's the same. 01:14:00 sure, but that wouldnt do what you said anyway, tusho :p 01:14:10 meh fine 01:14:11 :P 01:14:35 augur: 01:14:39 yes 01:14:40 ? 01:14:49 damnit, i have to go in five minutes 01:14:49 how could i, say, make 'enemy' always move away from 'player' 01:14:53 let me finish with this :P 01:14:55 given (enemy,player).(x,y) 01:15:01 yes? 01:15:06 so functions are just lambdas 01:15:09 lambdas look like 01:15:16 { body } 01:15:19 to get args 01:15:24 you do @ -> argnames 01:15:26 e.g. 01:15:36 @ -> a, b, c 01:15:47 that says "put the passed args into a, b, c" 01:15:54 augur: that's like perl 01:15:58 specifically, perl's @_ array 01:16:06 to output, you do val -> @ 01:16:16 so a lambda that adds might be 01:16:30 { @ -> a, b 01:16:30 a+b -> @ } 01:16:36 you can also ofcourse do @ = ... 01:16:38 its the same. 01:16:40 augur: needs moar sugar 01:16:48 to apply a lambda, you do 01:16:52 { \ a, b 01:16:56 : lambda arg1 arg2 ... 01:16:56 ^ a+b } 01:17:01 so 01:17:06 i actually want to sugar it like 01:17:08 \ X is @ -> X 01:17:09 @: a, b, c 01:17:18 ^ X is X -> @ 01:17:22 i dont know if oklopol is in agreement tho 01:17:30 augur: my sugar is more awesome 01:17:33 ok so heres how function application works tho 01:17:38 anyway answer my q. :P 01:17:51 what question? :P 01:17:55 you said "given ..." 01:18:00 oh sorry 01:18:02 there was a line above it 01:18:03 haha 01:18:51 move away like if player moves towards enemy, enemy moves in the same direction, maintaining distance? 01:18:57 you'd do some magic. :p 01:19:07 ok so function application can apply in reactions too 01:19:10 :foo a -> b 01:19:12 augur: I just mean, 01:19:17 says if a ever changes, put :foo a into b 01:19:18 the enemy's x and ys are always away from the player 01:19:20 what reaction is that? 01:19:26 itd be slightly more complicated 01:19:30 player.(x,y) -> enemy.(x+1,y+1)? 01:19:34 no 01:19:45 why not 01:20:03 any reaction like that will maintain a constant relative position 01:20:21 which means if player goes away from enemy, enemy follows 01:20:28 augur: well, yes 01:20:32 whatever 01:20:34 if player moves sideways, the so does enemy 01:20:35 augur: hmm 01:20:38 here's a way to fix that 01:20:42 give a history of the same reactions 01:20:46 we do :) 01:20:54 so that you could find the players direction by the previous trigger of that reaction 01:20:56 awesome 01:20:58 example? 01:21:05 we're not entirely sure how thats going to look 01:21:09 but something like 01:21:13 specifically, if player's x is one more than the previous time, then make your x less 01:21:14 delay 5 x -> y 01:21:14 etc 01:21:15 or something 01:21:22 guh 01:21:25 what's it got to do with delays augur 01:21:28 i mean like 01:21:28 or maybe x{-5} -> y 01:21:35 sorry 01:21:37 not waht I said 01:21:40 nothing to do with delays 01:21:48 what I mean is 01:21:52 in the reaction 01:21:56 you could see the player.x and player.y 01:22:00 from the last time it was triggered 01:22:04 right 01:22:06 and thus, depending on how it's changed 01:22:09 determine their direciton 01:22:11 thats just delay one change 01:22:15 hmm 01:22:21 augur: how do you get the last value, then? 01:22:24 you need the topmost value and the second topmost 01:22:30 tho yes, having x{t} would be more convenient 01:22:31 and in other cases often more 01:22:34 we've not worked it all out yet 01:22:59 also, we need some way of doing just change-detection i think. 01:23:02 so anyway 01:23:03 for "moving away from", you need to access old state. 01:23:04 i need to get going 01:23:09 for left expression 01:23:28 exactly 01:23:30 oklopol: that's what I said 01:23:30 oklopol, explain how function calls behave, as reaction instantiation 01:24:06 an dont fuck it up, otherwise i'll poke you. :P 01:24:09 and* 01:24:11 oklopol: and explain how to access old state for left expr! 01:24:11 ok byes 01:24:14 plz 01:24:23 you cant access values for whole expressions 01:24:26 just variables 01:24:44 bye 01:25:28 tusho: that's not defined yet, at all. 01:25:38 i mean, except for delayed stuff 01:25:38 oklopol: well, give me a random idea 01:25:56 tusho 01:25:58 like i said 01:26:04 we're maybe using delays, or we're using x{t} 01:26:10 neither makes any sense to me, augur 01:26:22 x{-5 ms} would be the value of x 5ms ago 01:26:32 x{-5} would be the value of x 5 changes ago 01:26:37 x{-1} would be the last value 01:26:44 x{0} is the current value 01:26:50 or just x 01:27:16 which is semantically identical to a delay. 01:27:29 ok im off bye 01:27:59 #enemy.(x,y) + (player.(x,y) - %player.(x,y)) -> enemy.(x,y), where # and % are random prefixes, # means "do not trigger on change on this expression" and % means "access the result before change in expression's result" 01:28:06 well 01:28:18 i failed there, because now it'd move the same way as player 01:28:22 but just revers players 01:28:41 and, this doesn't work, because tuples aren't data, i don't know how to make vecotrs 01:28:43 *vectors 01:29:49 # was needed there to avoid infloop, % is when you need derivative of change 01:29:56 well, not derivative of change 01:30:05 that's a second order derivative 01:30:12 anyway, that was very random, hope you liked it. 01:30:51 oklopol: cool 01:30:53 my game will rock 01:31:23 :P 01:31:52 btw, even more random idea: ZNYOGFYU is a mnemonic for doing exactly that. 01:32:31 heh what 01:34:34 move enemy away from player 01:37:22 oklopol: how is it a mnemonic 01:41:36 I wonder, is the variable bounding necessary in pi calculus? 01:42:14 tusho: it is, believe me 01:43:10 Slereah_: ask again when i feel like thinking :P 01:43:57 Do you feel like thinking? 01:44:05 -!- tusho has quit. 01:44:47 So far it looks like local variable naming 01:45:37 I hope there's an example where it can't just be replaced by renaming variables 01:47:04 We're not talking about a calculus programming language, are we? 01:47:54 Well, pi calculus 01:47:57 At least I am 01:49:56 Slereah_: yeah, that would be a bit stupid 01:50:03 but, i know at least that the scope can change 01:50:06 for a variable 01:50:20 it can extend if you send its value out of the inner scope 01:50:34 or something like that, i don't really remember that well 02:47:20 hello! :D 02:47:39 i see oklopol didnt explain function application 02:47:40 :p 02:47:56 also, oklopol, your notation sucks. its too limited. :P 02:48:03 tusho, you there? 02:49:50 o.o 02:56:56 lalala 02:57:01 tushotushotusho 02:57:12 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:57:19 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:58:54 oklopol, i like the idea of # as a way of pushing values to time-of-definition or some such 02:58:55 instead of 02:59:03 x = y+2 02:59:15 x*x + 3*z -> w 02:59:18 you could do like 02:59:43 #(y+2)*#(y+2) + 3*z -> w 03:00:20 tho im providing let sugar in my implementation so.. :P 03:00:36 let x = y+2 in x(x + 3*z -> w 03:00:41 s/(/*/ 03:00:58 or x*x + 3*z where x = y+2 03:01:23 er.. -> w* 03:04:38 Apparently, every process has a standard form like n (a,b,c,...) (P|Q|R|S|T|...) 03:04:49 What is your use, variable bounding! 03:04:55 I want to know! 03:06:31 bounding? 03:06:54 maybe we DO need to meet up, so i can teach you proper english :P 03:06:59 As said, so far it looks like local variable declaration. 03:07:13 Is the proper term bondage? 03:07:30 I'll sit in your lap and you can teach me how to use my tongue. 03:07:37 Or something. 03:12:23 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:12:30 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:44:46 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:45:56 -!- cherez has joined. 03:45:57 binding, slereah. 03:45:58 binding. 03:46:20 bondage is either slavery or sex. 03:46:22 or both. 03:47:47 So little man, do you have any idea if variable binding is actually indispensible in pi? 03:49:58 i have no understanding of pi calc 03:50:25 Well, imagine a bunch of dudes if you will. 03:50:42 One of this man is named Alice (it's better not to think why) 03:50:53 Another one is named Bob. 03:51:16 Now, imagine that they have some sort of communication channel. 03:51:29 It has a name. 03:51:36 Like a, for instance. 03:51:46 This is the essence of pi calculus. 03:51:53 Alice Cooper! :o 03:52:07 The calculus is a bunch of messages exchanged between the dudes. 03:52:23 By a number of processes. 03:52:37 It has the following thingies : 03:52:53 If you have two processes, P and Q. 03:53:03 i dont care :P 03:53:08 :( 03:56:25 Burn in hell, reactive dude 04:16:06 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:16:23 -!- oklopol has joined. 04:19:46 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -o oppiebot. 04:23:04 A pi calculus example in the book is a mobile phone system 04:23:14 For some reason, there's a biscuit truck in the schematics 04:26:47 dude, biscuit truck 04:26:51 ofcourse, it all makes sense 04:27:28 Apparently, each vehicle has a mobile phone in it 04:27:37 and I suppose that biscuit trucks need mobile phones 04:27:42 To call the biscuit factory 04:27:45 atleast one mobile phone 04:28:06 there's a natural isomorphism between mobile phones and bisquit trucks 04:29:32 It's sort of a recurring theme, somehow 04:29:50 One of the first example of communicating system was a vending machine, with tea and coffee. 04:30:02 of course 04:30:09 coffee is all about communication 04:30:29 For you see, if you input two pence in the machine 04:30:31 You get tea 04:30:35 But if you input 4 04:30:38 You get coffee. 04:31:02 It was used for an important point about determinism in communicating systems. 04:32:41 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/biskit.jpg 04:42:14 Hm. 04:42:27 Maybe I should fit the biscuit truck somewhere in Limp 05:30:50 "We begin with the monadic version of the calculus" 05:30:55 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 05:31:11 I hope that's not what I think. 05:31:27 HASKELL 05:31:29 It's apparently monadic in the old sense of the word though. 05:31:40 That is, "one" 05:31:52 ie one message sent 05:42:34 oklopolllll 05:55:14 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:11:04 lalala 08:46:13 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 09:54:12 Suuuure. 11:04:55 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Remote closed the previous member app"). 11:10:28 -!- Hiato has joined. 11:19:26 -!- Hiato1 has joined. 11:42:29 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:59:33 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:00:13 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:13:04 -!- Hiato1 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:13:20 auguuuuuuuuuuuuur 12:13:50 augur: also, oklopol, your notation sucks. its too limited. :P <<< how so? 12:30:01 Slereah_: that normal form does suggest variable bondage is futile 12:31:35 Slereah_: is the pi just for fun or do you have like a course or smth? 12:34:11 -!- Corun has joined. 12:51:23 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 12:51:57 -!- Corun has joined. 12:59:26 -!- ihope_ has joined. 13:29:04 -!- jix has joined. 13:32:33 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 13:33:08 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:48:47 -!- timotiis has joined. 13:58:58 -!- Hiato has joined. 13:59:13 -!- cherez1 has joined. 13:59:54 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:22:47 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:30:39 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:30:49 -!- jix has joined. 14:35:41 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:51:37 -!- tusho has joined. 14:51:42 hi tusho 14:51:58 fuck 14:52:00 ais523: script? 14:52:05 no, that was manual 14:52:18 ais523: well, I didn't have my irc client focused 14:52:21 neither did I 14:52:29 so it was a case of who happened to focus first 14:52:30 ais523: does it notice you whenever I join? 14:52:33 yes 14:52:36 .. 14:52:38 ahahah 14:52:42 i should set that up 14:52:42 wait, no 14:52:49 it notices me whenever ehird joins 14:52:51 let me fix that 14:53:00 LOL (literally) 14:53:40 ais523: I wonder if I tell it to highlight ais523, it'll highlight your joins too 14:53:50 really, though, I need it to auto-focus whenever I log on and you're there 14:53:56 heh, mine highlights server joins 14:54:00 not just channel joins 14:54:11 -!- oklopol has changed nick to hiall. 14:54:16 hah. 14:54:20 so I can get ready while waiting for you to connect 14:54:22 and hi, hiall 14:54:28 ais523: hiall is oklopol 14:54:29 i'm so gonna own you at greeting now. 14:54:36 tusho: I know, I just saw the nick change 14:54:41 -!- hiall has changed nick to oklopol. 14:54:44 ah, i thought you saw it as a join 14:54:50 i.e. it looked like a join thing but you didn't actually read it 14:54:53 nah, they look different to me 14:54:54 joke over, laugh time. 14:55:02 *** oklopol is now known as hiall 14:55:09 --> tusho has joined this channel 14:55:14 ah, okay 14:55:25 colloquy's default style is pretty retarded 14:55:29 it makes all stuff like that gray and in the middle 14:55:32 anyway, I have to reboot, I'll bbiab 14:55:33 also, it calls things 'chat rooms' 14:55:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:55:58 18:57:01 tushotushotusho 14:56:02 did you not notice i was not in the room 14:57:01 20:19:46 --- mode: ChanServ set -o oppiebot 14:57:04 very disappointed. 14:57:05 :( 14:57:28 everyone knows you're a logmongler 14:59:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:00:18 back 15:00:26 haha, this opera fanboy idiot is sending me private messages on reddit 15:00:37 first he replied to someone complaining opera was not free software, with 15:00:40 'Of course the world's best browser is free!! Has been for years :)' 15:00:45 tusho: anyway, the private back was to say back before you could wb me 15:00:50 i pointed out that he should look up 'free software' 15:00:56 then he private messaged me 15:01:00 'What did you mean by opera not being free? Link?' 15:01:07 I did it in the region of time between me joining the server and me autojoining the channels 15:01:08 I replied again telling him to look up free software 15:01:15 and he's replied with this lovely ditty: 15:01:16 tusho: maybe you should say FLOSS, it's less ambiguous 15:01:18 [[Opera was initially paid software, but then became free a few years ago. 15:01:18 http://www.download.com/Opera/3000-2356_4-10005498.html http://www.opera.com/free/ 15:01:18 note the word FREE. 15:01:18 Shame there are ignorants like you around, especially on reddit, who blindly blurt out the stupidest thing on their minds that they can't be bothered to substantiate. 15:01:19 So, you're either deluded or a retard. Now, YOU FAIL. 15:01:20 Don't bother answering.]] 15:01:30 So I'm either 12, mentally retarded ... or deluded. :-P 15:02:49 ais523: good idea 15:02:52 but even so 15:02:54 I specifically replied 15:02:58 'go look up free software' 15:03:02 if you google free software, you get relevant results 15:03:06 he obviously didn't and replied blindly 15:03:08 thus, I have no sympathy 15:03:10 you probably get irrelevant results too 15:03:24 ais523: first result - FSF 15:03:32 then a few results on, the wikipedia definition and FSF's definition 15:03:54 perhaps i should have tried 'open source' 15:04:06 but then he'd yell at me for being a FANATICAL DELUDED RETARD WHO CAN'T APRPECIATE THE MOST AWESOME POWER OF OPERA 15:04:33 Opera does have some good features, but they tend to be copied by Firefox extensions 15:04:41 yes 15:04:50 opera's rendering engine used to be far superior, though 15:05:09 well, Firefox's is excellent, but Opera's being even better makes sense 15:05:26 ais523: _used_ to be better 15:05:30 ff3 is superior 15:05:37 ok 15:05:41 a lot of Opera's marketshare comes from their mobile browsers, anyway 15:05:44 they're the de-facto standard 15:05:55 yes, FF would have trouble running on a mobile phone 15:07:57 Lawl, that email-spamming social network site that was on reddit a while ago just emailed me. 15:08:02 'Please respond or your friend will think you said no :(' 15:08:11 HOW SAD :((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((9999999999 15:08:23 an interesting chain message variant 15:08:40 ais523: it asks for your email password 15:08:43 and invites everyone on your list 15:08:52 by 'respond' they mean 'click the register button' 15:08:52 ok, that's stupid 15:08:58 and 'add this person as your friend' 15:09:00 especially for non-webmail clients 15:09:08 and I don't have an address list 15:09:10 ais523: it only supports a few, iirc 15:09:11 seriously 15:09:20 and i think it just does it to anyone you have ever emailed 15:09:22 or recieved email from 15:09:24 I just use reply, or remember addresses, or look in my sent items 15:09:35 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:09:39 gmail automatically maintains my address book 15:09:43 if i email people a lot they go higher up in it 15:09:47 rarely emailed people drop off it 15:11:04 i only answer, i never send emails otherwise. 15:12:07 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:12:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:39:52 -!- oppiebot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:46:30 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:51:28 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:00:20 Woohoo! It's quite likely that sweden will get its own firewall of china. 16:00:21 What fun. 16:00:29 what? 16:00:58 link? 16:01:33 ais523: http://swartz.typepad.com/texplorer/2008/06/mayday-mayday-internet-wall-of-china---around-sweden.html 16:01:35 via reddit 16:02:28 Aha 16:02:31 Not 'quite likely' 16:02:34 [[Good thing that this is on reddit, but the law was passed yesterday... :(]] 16:04:02 100% of finnish traffic goes through 'em 16:04:10 -!- hotidlerchick has joined. 16:04:20 said some paper 16:04:30 looks like Tor may end up getting a lot more use over in Sweden, then 16:05:05 ais523: hah! 16:05:17 a likely occurenc 16:05:18 e 16:09:01 http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-business/spoon-business-200806/msg00123.html 16:09:01 that retroactivity's so confused that it doesn't even make sense in Feather 16:09:01 normally I'd post that to #ircnomic, but really, some things deserve to be in #esoteric 16:13:28 ais523: could you express it in feather, though? 16:13:48 tusho: a retroactive Feather change has to be legal in the situation that was retroactively changed from 16:13:57 ais523: what would happen if you wrote that, then? 16:13:58 so a change can change the situation to make it have been illegal 16:14:23 tusho: nothing, it would be inexpressible, assuming that CANNOT in B Nomic == inexpressible in Feather 16:15:18 ais523: so it would be a syntax error? 16:15:27 what if you made it not one 16:15:39 oh, and is a feather compiler possible? :P 16:15:46 tusho: the change has to be legal in the version of the program's occurence that happened 16:16:07 so you can retroactively make what you just did illegal, but not do something illegal that retroactively makes itself legal 16:16:17 the other way leads to paradoxes very quickly 16:16:32 oh, and a Feather compiler would have to bundle an interp 16:16:41 because the interp is retroactively modifiable 16:16:45 and therefore has to exist 16:17:11 e.g. you can get the source code for a Feather interp by first retroactively modifying the language to expose the source code of all functions, and then looking at it 16:18:16 opTypeNames is not defined wtf. 16:18:24 tusho: in what? 16:18:42 ais523: narcissus 16:18:48 ok 16:20:09 GMAIL NOTIFIER STOP WELCOMING ME TO AGORA-BUSINESS 16:20:13 THAT WAS SENT LIKE YEARS AGO 16:20:19 * tusho marks everything read 16:20:36 'All 3352 conversations in All Mail are selected. Clear selection' 16:20:37 :-P 16:20:45 I only got this email in 2007 16:20:50 tusho, haven't checked email a lot? 16:21:16 AnMaster: No, I just ignore a lot of stuff 16:21:17 :P 16:27:19 ais523: eval() doesn't inject into global scope. bah. 16:27:22 I guess I need window.eval 16:31:12 ais523: I think we need #feather, because js2cps is a pretty big thingy 16:31:15 and I find myself flooding about it a lot 16:31:28 tusho: #feather already exists 16:31:33 about some other project with the same name 16:31:53 heh, in Merb too 16:31:55 a ruby framework 16:32:07 ais523: you could retroactively create it 16:32:20 tusho: not valid under Freenode's current rules, sorry 16:32:51 ais523: write an ircd in feather 16:33:02 alternatively, #rehtaef because it reverses time 16:33:09 tusho: ugh, Feather hates IO 16:33:13 and it doesn't reverse time 16:33:21 it just jumps back to a point in the past and does things differently 16:33:28 which effects the future evolution of the program 16:33:30 ais523: it occurs to me that Feathejs is like the ideal implementation of feather 16:33:36 tusho: why? 16:33:36 JS in a browser can do even less than squeak 16:33:42 it's the most closed world of them all 16:33:56 incidentally, Ubuntu sorts Squeak under "Education" 16:34:05 rather than "Development" like other programming languages 16:34:22 ais523: squeak is commonly used as an educational tool 16:34:29 it should be under both, really 16:34:36 well, it can't really be used for development 16:34:41 because it only develops itself 16:34:42 ais523: yes it can 16:34:48 people deploy squeak-based apps all the time 16:34:54 especially seaside apps 16:34:59 tusho: well, you'd have to distribute Squeak with the app, and it's massive 16:35:05 ais523: no 16:35:08 you just distribute the image 16:35:16 or if you're targetting people without squeak 16:35:20 then yes you do 16:35:24 but you can minimize the actual executable 16:35:28 and not include the standard image 16:35:30 pretty easily 16:35:44 * tusho tries to come up with a channel name that illustrates feather's retroactivity 16:36:03 tusho: what about we talk about it on irc.eso-std.org? 16:36:18 ais523: hm. it's an open programming language project though 16:36:30 yes, but then we wouldn't need a channel name... 16:36:34 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:36:37 #featherlanguage 16:36:37 :P 16:36:43 #featherlang 16:36:44 maybe? 16:36:46 it's shorter 16:36:48 ais523: #feather-lang 16:36:51 OK 16:36:53 (to keep with #ruby-lang) 16:38:20 ais523: irc.eso-std.org#canada? 16:38:36 tusho: OK, let me join it 16:41:31 what's feather? 16:41:45 jix: programming language 16:41:50 originally loosely based on Smalltalk 16:41:55 but ended up getting features of Haskell too 16:41:57 jix: it lets you change time, retroactively 16:42:00 its main feature is retroactive changes 16:42:01 that's all you need to know 16:42:09 where you can alter the value an object had at some point in the past 16:42:16 that's the only way objects can be modified 16:42:45 also, the language is completely reflective 16:42:58 you can even modify the parser retroactively, and have your program parsed differently as a result 16:43:05 initially, it's object-oriented, but you can change that 16:43:11 uhm 16:43:16 I'm also making a functional version, protoFeather 16:43:25 jix: 'uhm' is right 16:43:31 which is designed be a lang that can retroactively change itself so it was object-oriented all along 16:43:32 if you don't understand it, that's unsuprising ) 16:43:35 *;) 16:43:40 and thus become Feather 16:43:51 ais523: feathejs should implement protoFeather 16:43:54 but by default load a Feather image 16:43:55 tusho: yes 16:43:56 but if you change the parser retroactively to not understand the program that changed it in the first place.. 16:43:59 you get a paradoxon 16:44:05 jix: then you get a syntax error 16:44:06 jix: you'd get an error 16:44:11 obviously 16:44:18 because the program no longer conforms to the syntax of the language 16:44:18 why? 16:44:26 ais523: does it handle the grandfather paradox? 16:44:30 make the parent of an object never have existed 16:44:36 tusho: that's fine 16:44:40 then the object itself no longer exists either 16:44:42 in the rerun 16:44:43 heh 16:44:50 ais523: it's sci-fi time travel! 16:44:50 the change made itself illegal 16:44:51 ok so make it change the syntax so that the program itself wouldn't have changed the syntax but still is valid syntax 16:44:53 but that direction was fine 16:45:01 jix: that's fine, then the program just does something else 16:45:14 retroactive changes have to be consistent only in one direction 16:45:15 ais523: what would be the defined behaviour of such a case 16:45:24 ah ok 16:45:25 jix: the change is made as described by the old program 16:45:43 the new program is incapable of making that change again, because it means something else 16:45:50 in fact, you have to do that sort of thing to avoid timeloops 16:46:17 where you make a retroactive change, and the resulting program tries to make the same change, and so on forever 16:46:23 when that happens the interp goes into an infinite loop 16:46:26 which is not particularly useful 16:48:24 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:50:10 hmm what would be if the program is only run if the retroactivly change requested does change something acutally 16:50:38 jix: finding ways to do that is one major part of my effort in Feather 16:50:50 ah 16:50:51 the issue is that functions can't be compared, at least not in general 16:51:12 yeah 16:52:06 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:52:07 anyway, adding a new method or property to an object seems to be a safe retroactive change to make 16:52:13 because it's possible to tell if it was there 16:52:20 changing an existing method is harder, though 16:58:40 www.google.com could not be found. Please check the name and try again. 16:58:42 O.O 16:58:49 hmm nomic seems to be an interesting game... 16:58:59 jix: yep 16:59:06 heh, how did jix find nomic? 16:59:09 oh 16:59:10 /whois'd us? 16:59:14 it manages to get itself into worse situations than esolangs, normally 16:59:15 tusho: uhm 16:59:20 someone posted a link 16:59:25 tusho: probably he followed the link I posted 16:59:32 ahhh 16:59:39 ##nomic, yo :-P 16:59:46 though we still need comex to go there 17:00:00 tusho: I can't find how to set a redirect at all 17:00:04 it probably needs oper intervention 17:00:11 ais523: No, I doubt it. 17:00:13 I'll ask #freenode 17:00:55 UdontKnow: set guard on, and set mlock +if #destination 17:01:00 -!- tusho has changed nick to ehird. 17:01:08 -!- ehird has changed nick to tusho. 17:03:01 -!- tusho has changed nick to ehird. 17:03:32 -!- ehird has changed nick to tusho. 17:03:44 -!- tusho has changed nick to ehird. 17:04:05 -!- ehird has changed nick to tusho. 17:10:49 I'm back 17:11:13 hi Slereah_ 17:11:21 hi Slereah_ 17:36:13 hi Slereah_ 17:37:14 RABBIT! 17:37:40 FUCK YOU Slereah_ 17:37:46 GO AWAY. I WISH I HAD NEVER SAID HI 17:37:49 >:E 17:37:54 YOU BROKE OUR ... SACRED BOND 17:38:00 tusho: why can't Slereah_say RABBIT? 17:38:06 tusho does not appreciate fine music. 17:38:10 ais523: WE WERE SAYING HI TO HIM IN THE EXACTLY SAME WAY 17:38:13 HE BROKE THAT SPECIAL BOND 17:38:26 tusho: well, saying hi to yourself's a little stupid 17:38:34 http://www.4chan.org/flash/?file=megaloop/megaloop3.swf&title=Megaloop+v3.0 17:38:36 ais523: HE SHOULD HAVE KEPT IS DAMN MOUTH SHUT 17:38:37 :| 17:38:40 *HIS 17:39:10 18th button, then click on the big flashing button :o 17:39:38 RABBIT! 17:39:54 Slereah_: description? I choose not to look at things made in Flash 17:39:59 and in fact don't have Flash installed 17:40:12 It's said song, that contains the rabbit thing 17:40:24 Actually "rub it", but in the context, it is moar rabbit. 17:41:29 Context : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers4/Rub%20it.jpg 17:48:25 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving."). 17:50:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:50:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:51:16 back 17:51:26 Welcome back, mister ais. 17:51:31 thanks Slereah_ 17:51:34 Or should I say, ICE 17:51:36 sorry, dodgy connection... 17:52:48 It seems pi calculus is full of non-determinism :o 17:58:30 duh 17:59:08 how far along the book did that occur to you? :P 17:59:16 -!- olsner has joined. 18:00:02 Well, in the chapter that's actually about pi calculus 18:00:27 I thought they would drop the + operator, since it's not in most pi calculus conventions 18:04:00 owait 18:04:13 Apparently, with the replication operator, you can't have a standard form 18:04:24 Maybe n is useful somewhere! 18:04:46 Ah, it still exists :((( 18:05:12 n(a,b,c,d,...) (M1|M2|M3|...|Q1!|Q2!|Q3!|...) 18:25:35 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 18:27:35 I think I found an occurence where n can't be replaced :o 18:28:28 x(z).y | !(n y)x.Q 18:28:55 I think. 18:29:29 It needs a fresh supply of local variables to not get confused with any of the ones it already sent. 18:41:06 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:41:36 -!- tusho has joined. 18:41:42 -!- cherez1 has changed nick to cherez. 18:52:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:53:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:04:12 Cool. Thunks were invented in 1961 for ALGOL 60. 19:11:13 Thunks?* 19:11:20 Thunks 19:12:47 "The word thunk has at least three related meanings in computer science." 19:12:51 Which one is it! :o 19:13:07 Oh, delayed computation apparently 19:17:13 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 19:17:33 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:20:42 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:21:17 -!- oklofok has joined. 19:25:39 #lalala 19:25:47 a procedure of no arguments 19:26:52 tusho 19:26:59 hi augur 19:27:23 wanna learn about how reactance handles function calls? 19:27:34 augur: yes please, it could be useful for my degree 19:27:41 lolwut 19:28:02 ais523 is going for a degree in reactionism 19:28:12 awesome 19:28:12 Slereah_: not exactly 19:28:37 but VHDL is quite promininent in it 19:28:55 well i dont know if this is how VHDL does things, so dont rely on this :p 19:29:11 I may end up having to reimplement it or something silly like that, that's how projects often go 19:29:43 but anyway 19:29:48 so this is how functions work 19:29:51 by example 19:29:56 suppose you have a simple function 19:30:17 foo = ( @ -> a,b 19:30:17 a+b -> @ ) 19:30:32 when you apply it like x = :foo 1 2 19:30:58 those () should be {} sorry :p 19:31:00 old notation 19:31:01 anyway 19:31:06 @ is function inputs/outputs, right? 19:31:14 sort of. youll see. 19:31:19 ais523: @ is perl's @_, except if you write to it you return it. 19:31:20 i think. 19:31:25 tusho: no 19:31:31 the evaluator looks up foo, and finds that it's a 'lambda' 19:31:32 I've been listening in #reactivity a while ago 19:31:46 that channel doesn't exist 19:31:48 but it's nice 19:31:49 really, it finds that it's a sequence of sets and reactions 19:32:17 it then executes the sequence of sets and reactions in order 19:32:23 when it comes across something like @ -> ... 19:32:26 or ... = @ 19:32:31 maybe it was #reactance 19:32:34 but it was a temp channel anyway 19:32:38 so probably no longer exists 19:32:42 it says, ok, let me look at the arguments that were passed in 19:32:45 what are those arguments? 19:32:46 ais523: wasn't temp 19:32:49 yes, it's #reactance 19:32:51 augur has tried to stuff me in there twice 19:32:55 ok they're 1 2 19:33:04 augur: still listening 19:33:07 so it says, sure, @ == 1,2 19:33:08 -!- Corun has joined. 19:33:18 well if @ == 1,2, and @ -> a,b 19:33:21 then 1,2 -> a,b 19:33:28 -!- cherez has quit ("Leaving."). 19:33:30 which is just a normal parallel reaction 19:34:02 so the evaluator creates these two reactions, 1 -> a, 2 -> b 19:34:31 and then it turns to a+b -> @ 19:34:52 and it says, ok i need to now establish a reaction between a+b and whatever variable is on the output 19:34:59 but, uh oh, theres no variable on the output 19:35:05 i said x = :foo 1 2 19:35:22 -!- cherez has joined. 19:35:38 what does that = mean? 19:35:40 even if i had said :foo 1 2 -> x there wouldnt be a variable that the APPLICATION is outputing to 19:35:42 = is just = 19:35:53 I mean, in the context of your lang 19:36:00 gimme a second :p 19:36:15 what the evaluator does, then, is when it evaluates something like x = :foo 1 2 19:36:22 it replaces :foo 1 2 with a dummy variable 19:36:39 and when it builds/executes the body of the function 19:36:40 -!- hotidlerchick has quit ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'"). 19:36:48 it replaces -> @ with -> that_dummy_variable 19:37:26 ah, so it's pass-by-name 19:37:30 but for results as well as arguments 19:37:39 if we were doing something like 1,2,3 -> @, it would replace :foo 1 2 with three dummy variables 19:38:03 so its sort of like a return value 19:38:09 so what function calls REALLY do 19:38:13 is they build new reactions 19:38:19 using dummy variables and so on 19:38:53 if you want, you can imagine this like this: 19:39:06 step 1: evaluate ":foo x y -> z" 19:39:07 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:39:45 step 2: instantiate the body of foo somewhere, create @ -> a,b and a+b -> @ 19:39:51 replace @ with x,y 19:39:55 x,y -> a,b 19:40:13 step 4: replace @ with dummy 19:40:17 a+b -> dummy 19:40:33 and repace :foo x y with dummy in :foo x y -> z 19:40:36 dummy -> z 19:40:41 so now all we have is 19:40:49 x -> z 19:40:51 er 19:40:53 x -> a 19:40:55 that's pass-by-name, basically 19:40:57 y -> b 19:41:01 a+b -> dummy 19:41:02 dummy -> z 19:41:11 which is a trivial reaction set 19:41:28 I think that's what VHDL does 19:41:36 except it needs all input and output ports to be named explicitly 19:41:41 so the syntax is a lot more unwieldy 19:42:12 well, we're considering having some requirement on formals to the lambda 19:42:24 my preference is { @: a b c ... } 19:42:32 instead of { @ -> a, b, c ... } 19:43:25 well, as long as you don't have to define a separate prototype first 19:43:31 using keywords like BEGIN ENTITY 19:43:38 a separate prototype? 19:43:49 augur: you define prototypes for functions first 19:43:53 then one or more implementations for them 19:44:13 i dont follow 19:44:24 well, to define a 'function' 19:44:41 you first put a block of code that states all the arguments it takes, and all the return values, and their types 19:44:46 then, separately, you put the code for the function 19:44:48 ah no 19:44:55 I'm talking about VHDL 19:44:57 not your lang 19:45:05 yeah, i know. no we have nothing like that 19:45:12 in this, you just define what the reactions look like 19:45:18 yes, that's a lot simpler 19:45:25 I was talking about how VHDL is ridiculously verbose 19:45:36 functions are literally nothing more than shorthands for big reaction-creation sequences 19:45:49 yes, same in VHDL 19:46:06 all the dummy variables are unnamed, btw. they exist only in the mind of the evaluator or something like that, so theres no naming conflict 19:46:09 but, BUT 19:46:10 by the way, I had a great esolang idea a while ago 19:46:16 an esoteric language geared to creating electronic music 19:46:30 we do have lexical scoping 19:46:43 so these variables used in reactions exist in frames of environments 19:46:48 just like in lisp 19:46:59 so this is where we get to your question about what = does 19:47:08 when the evaluator comes to a = 19:47:28 it looks at the value of the right hand side _at the time of evaluation_ 19:47:35 and puts that value into the variable on the left 19:47:43 its not a reaction 19:47:49 so it y == 7 19:47:57 x = y*y sets x to 47 19:48:03 its just normal = 19:48:13 <- and -> on the other hand establish a reaction 19:48:18 so if y == 7 19:48:28 x <- y*y makes x 49 19:48:33 but if y changes, so does x 19:48:55 because theres lexical scope, if x doesnt exist in the environment, it creates x 19:49:25 in the evaluation frame 19:49:38 which is the global frame if you're in the main body of a reactance program 19:49:49 on the other hand, if you use := you say by default "create x in the current eval frame" 19:50:02 if you're in the global frame, no difference from = 19:50:09 if you're in a sequence 19:50:13 e.g. anything like { ... } 19:50:33 well, when you apply a function, you set up a new frame and extent the definition environment with that frame 19:51:06 so if := is in that sequence, it sets up a new variable in the frame created when applying the function 19:51:12 just like (define ... ) in lisp 19:51:23 :-> and <-: do the same for reactions 19:51:45 if the variable already exists in the frame, then thats an error. 19:52:37 does that make sense? 19:53:56 augur: let me read it first 19:53:59 then I'll tell you 19:54:56 what determines when = is evaluated? 19:55:09 oh, you can do things like x -> y = 5 19:55:18 so that y changes to 5 whenever x changes? 19:55:22 that should be x -> (y = 5) 20:10:29 no :) 20:10:34 you cant do x -> (y = 5) 20:10:42 ok 20:10:47 in that case I don't think I understand 20:10:51 when evaluation happens 20:10:51 you can do x -> {y = 5} tho 20:11:00 oh, a simple syntax difference? 20:11:02 well no 20:11:06 big semantic difference 20:11:08 or deeper than that 20:11:10 y = 5 is just an assignment 20:11:14 when does it happen? 20:11:16 _just_ an assigmnet 20:11:40 you can do it whenever you want in a series of = or -> statements 20:11:50 just like you can in, say, c 20:11:58 think of it basically like that 20:12:13 in x -> ... 20:12:24 so the program runs in sequence? 20:12:26 .. has to be a variable, or a bunch of variables 20:12:32 in reactive langs, it's normally hard to tell when things happen 20:12:36 it establishes reactions in sequence 20:13:32 if we eliminated =, then you'd never see the sequentiality 20:13:47 and it could be eliminated entirely 20:13:50 ok 20:14:00 so x <- y actually assigns a reaction to x 20:14:04 yeah 20:14:05 which makes it change value whenever y changes? 20:14:08 x <- y is identical to y -> x 20:14:19 but before that command was called, x had no value 20:14:19 but you never notice that 20:14:19 yeah, whenever y changes, x is updated as well 20:14:25 right 20:14:30 unless you had x -> @ 20:14:32 so if I write x <- y; z = x 20:14:36 does that make z react to x 20:14:36 or x -> io.output 20:14:37 or something 20:14:40 or does = just copy x's value 20:14:44 not its reactions 20:14:49 no, = are not reactions 20:14:56 I know 20:14:58 = is just a one time "whats the value _at this moment_" sort of thing 20:14:59 but x has a reaction there 20:15:08 so = looks at x's value, but not any reactions it has 20:15:14 right, and since y has no value, neither does x, and neither does z 20:15:25 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:15:53 -!- tusho has joined. 20:15:59 tusho: where did you go? 20:16:11 death land 20:16:31 ais does that make sense? 20:16:47 yes 20:16:51 ok :) 20:16:57 and when y's assigned a value, x will change but z won't 20:17:03 right 20:17:04 because it got a copy of x's value, but not its reactions 20:17:11 what if I write x <- y; x <- z 20:17:13 doing z = x is sort of like 20:17:15 does x get both reactions? 20:17:21 the evaluator gets to z = x 20:17:25 if evaluates x 20:17:29 and then instead says 20:17:38 z <- that_constant_that_x_was_equal_to 20:17:50 and { } can be used to get the evaluator to run after initial program load 20:17:57 uh 20:17:58 by making a block that's evaluated in reaction to something 20:18:00 if you do y -> x 20:18:02 z -> x 20:18:06 x only has one reaction 20:18:08 z -> x 20:18:13 the first one is destroyed. 20:18:24 ok 20:18:37 that's very different from VHDL 20:18:44 in fact it's the first major difference I've seen 20:18:48 tho that might be interesting to look into 20:18:59 ill note it, thank you. 20:19:01 as for {} 20:19:05 it seems reactance has changed a lot since my days 20:19:13 no it hasnt oklofok :P 20:19:22 you just never paid attention in the first place 20:19:24 y->x;z->x didn't use to eliminate y->x 20:19:29 {} just enclose sequences 20:19:35 yes it did, oklofok 20:19:38 sequences being the operative word here 20:19:42 so that they can be evaluated, in sequence 20:19:43 well no, but whatever 20:19:46 VHDL has those too 20:19:50 well yes, oklofok :P 20:19:52 look at your logs 20:19:53 augur: no. 20:20:01 including specifying what reaction causes them to happen 20:20:11 sequences are just a bunch of reactions 20:20:17 augur: oklofok: you two remind me of me and ehird 20:20:24 bickering about this sort of language detail 20:20:26 ais523: also me and ehird. 20:20:30 tusho: #jsmips 20:20:38 so when you do something like 20:20:39 and me and cakeprophet. 20:20:40 foo = { ... } 20:20:47 what you do is store the sequence in the variable foo 20:20:50 also ehird and X for any value of X 20:20:52 GregorR: Rule 1 of #esoteric: Your language does not need a channel, unless it's Feather. 20:20:56 :P 20:20:59 sequences have inputs and outputs, as you saw: @ -> ... and ... -> @ 20:21:05 so functions are really just sequences 20:21:10 tusho: It's not a language, nor is it that esoteric. 20:21:14 my languages are so awesome i could have seven channels for each 20:21:18 JSMIPS is totally esoteric, GregorR. 20:21:22 the whole program could infact be considered one giant {} 20:21:25 oklofok: You CAN! :D 20:21:36 MIPS by itself is esoteric. 20:21:40 * ais523 is laughing continuously 20:21:44 and out loud 20:21:50 does that make sense, ais? 20:21:55 ais523: who made you laugh? 20:21:59 {} is just sequence syntax 20:22:03 oklofok: the whole discussion 20:22:13 okay, aws just wondering if it was my second point. 20:22:15 *was 20:22:16 let's argue about whom argues with whom 20:22:17 but starting when two people joined #jsmips when GregorR asked someone else to 20:22:28 so when you do x -> { y = 5 } what you're doing is saying the value of x is the input to the sequence { y = 5 } 20:22:36 which is just the same as applying that sequence to x 20:22:41 :{ y = 5 } x 20:22:48 or if it was a named sequence 20:22:50 :seq x 20:23:19 tusho: about _who_ argues with whom 20:23:20 :P 20:23:31 shut up augur, you know i'm mentally retarded ;) 20:23:47 tusho: you started it this time 20:23:50 i can tell you precisely why it's _who_ anyway 20:23:53 ais523: actually, I was joking 20:23:57 ais: does all that make sense? 20:24:02 tusho: yes, but it may not come across that way 20:24:09 ais523: did last time I joked about it 20:24:09 augur: yes 20:24:09 :P 20:24:11 :P 20:24:12 o 20:24:15 oko 20:24:16 ok good. 20:24:29 if you have any questions, dont ask oklopol. he's confused. 20:24:50 i'm not confused, i'm just bicurious! 20:25:50 no, you're a faggot is what you are 20:26:13 be proud of it! 20:26:27 ok im off to pick up my glasses and go install Leopard on my aunts computer 20:26:28 ciao 20:26:45 bye 20:46:24 What a furry 20:46:51 Slereah_: ? 20:50:20 LEOPARD :o 20:51:59 wow, they just released a new version of Subversion, with some actual new features 20:52:05 that doesn't happen very often 20:52:17 ais523: and shouldn't, they still think it has a market segment... 20:52:25 tusho: it does 20:52:30 ais523: it shouldn't 20:52:41 tusho: think small projects with a few people, and a centralised server 20:52:52 DVCS' still have major advantages in that case 20:53:06 tusho: well, in this case, we didn't want branching at all anywhere 20:53:09 ais523: also, a subversion dev has stated that the market for svn is now 'medium-sized projects' 20:53:16 which is crap as DVCS' work well on them 20:53:23 brb 21:02:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:02:15 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 21:04:44 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:06:09 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:06:35 hi oerjan 21:06:39 (sorry, tried to say that earlier but my Internet connection malfunctioned) 21:06:54 Hello. 21:07:01 hi Slereah_ 21:07:51 -!- RedDak has joined. 21:09:09 the hi 21:09:19 heh, oerjan comes out in cyan 21:09:27 my client invents colours for everyone's nicks 21:09:34 presumably based on some username-based algorithm 21:09:48 Slereah_ is a sort of slightly bluish green 21:13:25 -!- Corun has joined. 21:13:45 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:14:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:14:30 sorry... 21:14:32 I have a dodgy Internet connection 21:14:44 ais523: who clever is the nick invention? 21:14:58 well, your nick is a rather nice shade of purple 21:15:06 and I didn't invent the nick thing 21:15:10 always manages to choose the same color for almost same nicks? 21:15:12 probably many clients have it 21:15:18 oklofok: no, very different for almost same nicks 21:15:26 presumably so you can tell them apart 21:21:42 BACQ 21:21:59 hm... tusho's almost the same colour as Slereah_ 21:22:34 in terms of nick colour 21:23:23 ais523: probably because Slereah_ and tusho are far apart nickwise 21:23:30 yes, probably 21:24:01 Far apart? 21:24:08 He's right under me alphabetically 21:24:28 well, most of the letters are different 21:24:41 wow, I'm not sure if I can tell the colours for you two apart 21:26:07 It's not hard. 21:26:09 ais523: http://live.gnome.org/Vala this is crazy 21:26:12 tusho will talk of computers. 21:26:15 it's a compiler that compiles to C-GObject 21:26:16 I will talk of butts. 21:26:21 and has things like lambdas 21:26:26 and non-null types 21:26:29 and generics, and type inferrence 21:27:16 Kitchen sink? 21:27:22 so it's designed to be a sane interface to what they have already? 21:31:06 ais523: pretty much 21:31:16 it's like all of C#'s functional&weird features plus the gobject type system 21:31:22 but still ... gobject is grossly horrible 21:31:25 so why build something so nice on top of it 21:31:36 tusho: well, it's TC, right? 21:31:44 ais523: so? 21:31:48 besides, why did you ask that question in #esoteric? 21:31:55 because GObject is esoteric 21:31:58 and there's nowhere else to ask it 21:32:02 "X is grossly horrible, so why build something so nice on top of it" 21:32:10 that question's rhetorical in #esoteric 21:32:12 ah, true 21:32:12 heh 21:32:14 but still 21:32:15 for something serious 21:32:43 ais523: how do I find out which channels I own? 21:33:27 I'm not sure if you can 21:33:37 try asking in #freenode 21:33:53 * ais523 is confused that tusho seems to think that ais523 is a ChanServ expert 21:34:21 If you are not, you have OUTLIVED YOUR USEFULNESS! 21:34:24 DESTROY HIM! 21:34:31 Aargh! 21:34:39 * ais523 ducks behind a filing cabinet 21:34:53 I find your lack of chanserv expertise disturbing. 21:35:01 * ais523 quickly leafs through their #esoteric handbook for the bit on protecting oneself from an angry Slereah_ 21:35:09 aha 21:35:16 * ais523 gets out some delicious cake to use as a distraction 21:36:23 The cake is a lie 21:36:32 oerjan: ssh, don't tell Slereah_ that! 21:37:11 I am already ssh'ing 21:37:19 classic 21:38:21 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:38:27 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 21:38:39 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:47:27 -!- tusho has quit ("And then-"). 21:47:49 -!- tusho has joined. 21:49:17 ais523: well I just had to do it .. I'm making a language that is a thin, slightly eso layer over c 21:50:33 ok 21:51:08 ais523: you'll be interested because it'll probably be prototype based 21:53:32 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 21:55:19 -!- Slereah has joined. 21:55:19 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:59:01 i'm going to make a language based on your mother 22:00:49 ais523: behold. http://pastebin.ca/1051458 22:03:38 ais523: most awful thing ever or what 22:04:07 not necessarily awful 22:04:09 I've seen worse 22:04:14 Java looks worse, for instance 22:05:59 ais523: but awful in how it'll translate to c 22:15:27 here, let me take an argument I had with tusho over to #esoteric 22:15:38 is it a good idea to provide version control information in multiple formats? 22:15:43 say, in both git and darcs foramt 22:15:46 s/foramt/format/ 22:15:51 ais523: that is so not what yousaid 22:15:52 I think it is, tusho thinks it isn't 22:15:57 and let's not inflame #esoteric 22:15:57 :p 22:16:06 tusho: no, I didn't say it like taht 22:16:15 but that's what I think it's most important to resolve 22:16:25 lets see what the others have to say 22:16:38 come on, denizens of #esoteric! 22:16:46 ais523: like 3 people here use version control. 22:16:52 more than 3, surely 22:17:00 GregorR, probably lament 22:17:03 maybe jix, Dewi 22:17:04 this channel is full of programmers 22:17:09 ais523: unconventional ones 22:17:11 most of whom will have used version control at some time 22:17:13 oklopol doesn't use any 22:17:27 RodgerTheGreat has an irrational hatred and prefers his 'vcs' which consists of a php script that lists zip files and lets you upload them 22:17:35 tusho: well, if e did, e'd appreciate having version control info in multiple format 22:17:36 dunno about oerjan, SimonRC 22:17:37 s/$/s/ 22:17:41 i wouldn't want to maintain a multiple vcs setup 22:17:53 jix: but it makes more sense as a user from a website 22:17:55 jix: especially since the differences in how they treat things, right? 22:17:59 I'm offering to maintain it myself 22:17:59 it wouldn't convert well 22:18:07 tusho: it does convert well, I tested 22:18:11 ais523: I question this assertion 22:18:16 well if some are read only it would work i guess 22:18:20 oh dear, we pinged RodgerTheGreat 22:18:21 and fuck you too, tusho 22:18:26 jix: that's it, all but one are read only 22:18:35 RodgerTheGreat: well you DID say that you hate them all except your zip uploader. 22:18:44 i can get the logs if you want... 22:18:50 well, provide RodgerTheGreatZipUploader as a format too 22:18:54 for people who like doing it like that 22:18:57 but then i don't really see the use... you could use some webinterface that enables downloads of revisions as tar.bz2 and everyone is happy 22:19:04 I don't really consider my uploader a CVS 22:19:08 downloads of that and patches or something 22:19:21 and the point I originally made was that I think they're usually overkill and poorly designed 22:19:22 i'd prefer that over loads of different vcs 22:19:22 jix: yes, that's how VCS converters work 22:19:38 ais523: yeah but just offer the bz2s and patches and the vcs you use 22:19:43 that should be enough for everyone! 22:19:43 I used to think version control systems were overkill. 22:19:55 jix: it's because ais523, although accepting that git would work totally fine and would be equal to darcs, wants to use darcs to develop even though ESO has some infrastructure [with more to come] built around git 22:19:57 Then I made a big change to a file that I couldn't easily revert. 22:19:58 e.g. the online repo viewer 22:19:59 And it broke everything. 22:20:01 :P 22:20:01 jix: well, the issue here is that I'm using a different VCS for my projects than tusho is for eirs 22:20:07 ais523: that's untrue 22:20:09 s/tusho/the rest of ESO/ 22:20:16 and the point is that we have infrastructure, with more to come, utilizing it 22:20:19 tusho: the rest of ESO is you 22:20:21 also, you've even said that git would work fine 22:20:23 ais523: yes, but not forever 22:20:32 tusho: what if the rest of ESO wants to use darcs? 22:20:43 ais523: that's not what I said 22:20:44 darcs rules 22:20:46 tusho: I am also somewhat curious as to why you've gone out of your way to criticize my opinions so many times recently for essentially no reason. 22:20:51 i don't like darcs 22:20:52 RodgerTheGreat: I haven't. 22:20:55 It was relevant to the discussion. 22:20:58 and i don't like git either 22:21:02 ais523: ESO has infrastructure, with more to come (important note) based on git. 22:21:12 Therefore, ESO is likely to use git more and more and not other VCS'. 22:21:14 tusho: there are two things based on git, because you chose to use it 22:21:20 for two projects you started 22:21:26 that's fine 22:21:32 ais523: you misunderstand 'infrastructure' 22:21:34 jix: I'm not a big fan of decentralized revision control in general, but I still Mercurial because it's soooooooo easy to set up on a server X-D 22:21:37 infrastructure = code browser, etc 22:21:45 GregorR: i use bazaar 22:21:48 and I'm willing to convert my projects to git to work in your browser 22:22:00 but that conversion does not work foolproof, ais523 22:22:03 GregorR: because switching from svn to it was the most easiest switch imho and it's soooo easy to setup 22:22:07 and since you have acknowlegded that git would work fine 22:22:11 you could just... you know. use it 22:22:14 tusho: well, it only needs to work for the things that the browser shows 22:22:19 or, you could just forfeit the code browser like earlier 22:22:27 but i have no problem of using different vcs for different projects 22:22:30 *with 22:22:31 which is revisions, commits and patches 22:22:36 I don't see how they could fail to convert 22:22:37 ais523: I am not happy with the duplication of the storage. 22:22:38 with any VCS 22:22:45 When it gets more revisions that will be a problem. 22:22:50 so if i work on a project that uses GIT i'd use git too 22:22:59 And I don't want C-INTERCAL taking up a lot of space just because you don't want to use git for no reason... 22:23:14 tusho: it's hardly likely to take up a lot of space 22:23:34 Darcs is not the most space-efficient VCS, ais523. 22:23:42 no, it isn't 22:23:44 uh and darcs vs git i'd vote for git because darcs dependencies aren't nice 22:23:48 so a git conversion won't take up much more 22:24:16 like compiling ghc isn't fun 22:24:25 jix: well, I have ghc already 22:24:33 jix: he has this brilliant idea of automatically converting darcs to git for the code browser & similar 22:24:36 and doing this routinely to keep it up to date 22:24:42 instead of using git (which he has acknowledged would be fine) 22:25:04 well if it makes no differences for anyone but him why shouldn't he do that 22:25:04 tusho: but annoying for someone like me, who likes the darcs interface but not the git interface 22:25:20 ais523: you could write some small shellscript wrapper for that couldn't you? 22:25:24 ais523: maybe you could spend some time with it? 22:25:27 I bet you'd come out more efficient. 22:25:46 jix: yes, I'm thinking about it 22:25:59 which imho would be a better solution that duplicating the repo 22:26:03 *tan 22:26:05 *than 22:26:17 * jix is too tired to write... 22:26:24 tusho: well, I'm reasonably efficient as is, and going much faster wouldn't give me time to review my changes 22:26:31 as is, I've caught quite a few errors at commit-time 22:26:41 ais523: Well, if you can get an equal speed with git and all these advantages... 22:26:52 If you wish, though, write that shell wrapper. 22:26:56 I'm sure lots of people would find it useful, actually. 22:29:08 Gaiz 22:29:15 What do you think of this so far : http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Slereah/Limp 22:30:53 Slereah: It rox my box. 22:31:11 tusho: I can't figure out how to use git commit --interactive at all 22:31:16 and that's the main reason I use darcs 22:31:21 ais523: You could ask #git. 22:31:28 Or the mailing list. 22:31:38 I think I'm going to have problems differenciating names from function values 22:31:38 tusho: if I ask them how to make git work exactly like darcs, most likely they'll say "use darcs" 22:31:45 whichis a sensible reply in the circumstances 22:31:50 ais523: I doubt it. 22:31:50 I'll have to do something moar rigorous for it. 22:31:56 Just ask them how to efficiently use git commit --interactive. 22:32:00 That's your real question. 22:32:14 It's just hidden in the layer of 'darcs thingy is efficient', 'I want git commit --interactive to be as efficient' 22:32:25 Which does not equate to 'I want it to work exactly like darcs', which would be a bad phrasing of it. 22:33:25 tusho: it's fundamentally different 22:33:31 darcs separates patches for showing them 22:33:35 git doesn't 22:33:43 ais523: Ask them how to do a similar workflow. 22:33:47 so you can't commit a change to a file but not an unrelated change elsewhere in that file 22:33:57 also you have to commit a diff before you can look at it 22:34:01 *ahem* I don't know why ais523 thinks I'm a git-workflow expert. 22:34:02 well, tentative-commit it 22:34:06 tusho: I don't 22:34:16 I'm just explaining why using git would be against my interests 22:34:23 can I not just use darcs as an interface to it? 22:34:56 Slereah: I'm not sure I understand it 22:35:24 ais523: It wouldn't be against your interests! Just ask #git, jeez. 22:35:37 (And don't say "tusho told me to come in here and ask you how to make git exactly like darcs". Because that's silly.) 22:35:45 what else should I say? 22:35:57 seriously 22:36:03 ais523 : What do you not understandy? 22:36:12 ais523: I'm used to 'darcs record'. How can I use 'git commit --interactive' for a similar workflow? 22:36:30 Slereah: the whole thing, my head isn't getting around it for some reason 22:36:58 Not even the recursive-lisp-lambda part? :o 22:37:13 I think I'm having trouble parsing the syntax in my head 22:37:17 possibly because I'm tired 22:38:07 ais523: I just told you how to ask them. :P 22:38:11 tusho: well, I've copy/pasted that question to #git 22:38:13 to see what happens 22:38:21 and nobody's replied so far 22:38:31 ais523: and if they suggest pointers to a different workflow, listen to them.. open mind and all that 22:38:41 Well, the syntax for processes is P ::= 0 | x.P | x[y].P | (n x)P | (P|P) | !P 22:38:42 yes, well actually they're just ignoring me 22:38:47 which is unsurprising 22:40:30 ais523: no they're not 22:40:39 guess what, irc channels are idle most of the time :| 22:40:49 and people only answer questions they can 22:40:55 #git asn't when I arrived 22:40:55 there you go 22:44:51 -!- ihope_ has joined. 22:44:57 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope. 22:47:42 -!- Phenax has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:47:50 -!- Phenax has joined. 22:52:40 ais523, hm? 22:52:51 ais523, how goes "interfunge"? 22:52:56 AnMaster: again not at all, so far 22:53:02 I've been too busy arguing with tusho 22:53:06 for the last month or so 22:53:16 ais523, try /ignore 22:53:16 ? 22:53:24 AnMaster: considering we're the two members of ESO 22:53:25 AnMaster: no, I enjoy the arguments 22:53:26 that might not be so productive 22:53:32 (and the two main people on Canada) 22:53:37 I admit that /ignore tusho would make me a lot more productive at many things, though 22:53:38 ais523, tell him to shut up then? 22:53:45 AnMaster: i could say the same! 22:54:00 hey, I didn't say the arguments were tusho's fault! 22:54:12 yes you did! fuck you ais523! 22:54:12 ais523, shut up yourself? 22:54:16 i hope you die in a fire! 22:54:22 a firey fire 22:54:23 with FIRE! 22:54:50 a hot one? 22:55:13 * ihope hugs tusho 22:55:24 oerjan: yes 22:55:25 with hot fire 22:55:51 AnMaster: that might work, but then how would I convince tusho of what I wanted to convince them of? 22:56:04 them? 22:56:11 split personality? 22:56:17 AnMaster: no, just singular they 22:56:19 singular they 22:56:26 I use it quite a bit 22:56:27 wtf is singular they? 22:56:29 "he"? 22:56:37 AnMaster: use of the word they to refer to one object 22:56:41 to avoid having to state a gender 22:56:42 it's common 22:56:46 ais523, that isn't correct English afaik? 22:56:51 and well tusho is *he* 22:56:51 afaik 22:56:55 AnMaster: even Shakespeare used the word themself 22:56:58 AnMaster: It _will_ be 22:57:02 despite knowing the gender of the person in question 22:57:06 so it's hardly new 22:57:09 let's all use spivak 22:57:12 ais523, ok, but this isn't old English 22:57:15 AnMaster, though, I don't think e might like that 22:57:27 It might get em enflamed. 22:57:28 spivak? 22:57:36 AnMaster: use of the word e as the singular of they 22:57:42 And e'll lose eir mind! 22:57:47 well e I accept 22:57:51 since I know what it means 22:57:57 anyway what is spivak? 22:59:03 "They" is correct English grammar. If anybody tells you otherwise, they're right. 22:59:15 ihope: s/right/wrong/? 22:59:22 you just contradicted yourself 22:59:26 Nope. :-) 23:00:14 maybe you mean "they's right"? 23:00:27 or 'they''s right? 23:00:37 wow, double-single-quote, I don't use that often 23:00:52 -!- Ilari has joined. 23:01:33 ais523, double single quote exist? 23:01:39 some langs use it, I think 23:01:50 e.g. TexInfo uses it for directed closing double-quotes 23:01:52 hard to keep apart from double quote... 23:01:59 you write `` for a directed opening double-quote 23:02:05 I mean in hard written text '' == " 23:02:11 and in some fonts it is 23:02:15 Ilari: tusho tells me that you recognised my quit message as INTERCAL 23:02:23 `` == '' 23:02:32 as a double-quoted ' == ' 23:02:33 ais523, they look different in my font 23:02:33 ``a'' is awful 23:02:42 tusho: yes 23:02:45 ais523: Yup. 23:02:51 Ilari: any idea what it does? 23:03:07 anyway, ais523, get back into #git so they can hit you with the force of a thousand reasoned arguments :-P 23:03:15 ais523: Nope. I haven't studied Intercal very much. 23:03:21 tusho: I got a very satisfactory answer from #git, thanks 23:03:32 :-P 23:03:39 wait, didn't you say it supports your workflow anyway? 23:03:45 just a second ago 23:03:51 yes 23:03:58 does that mean you'll be using git? 23:04:05 ais523, try mercurial 23:04:06 :) 23:04:09 way better than git 23:04:18 ignore AnMaster, as he is a complete liar. 23:04:18 AnMaster: that seems to be the other main alternative, after reading up on this online 23:04:26 apart from git and darcs 23:04:30 besides, the only reason git is on the table is because ESO are utilizing it already 23:04:32 ais523, well darcs is good too 23:04:39 ais523: anyway, is it time to do my victory dance? 23:04:46 AnMaster: I'm using darcs at the moment, tusho's trying to convince me to use git 23:04:55 whereas I just want to get on and write INTERCAL compilers... 23:04:57 ais523: and you just found out it supports your workflow fine... 23:05:01 ais523, I'd recommend "keep darcs" then 23:05:09 or "use mercurial" 23:05:12 AnMaster: yes, but he can't use the ESO code browser then 23:05:14 git really isn't that good 23:05:17 without his awful convert-to-git-regularly hack 23:05:28 anyway, /me dances the victory dance. 23:05:30 tusho, why would he want that code browser 23:05:37 AnMaster: because he said he did 23:05:42 just use trac? 23:05:46 and wrote an awful hack to get it working 23:05:49 AnMaster: trac handles darcs? 23:05:50 and trac is awful, awful 23:05:54 tusho: I like trac 23:05:55 sorry 23:06:01 ais523, I *think* there may be a plugin for it 23:06:08 ais523: i thought you said that git was designed for your workflow, anyway 23:06:21 ais523, I know there is a plugin for bzr in trac, and iirc one for mercurial 23:06:42 tusho: yes, its designed for lots of other workflows too 23:06:51 ais523: and that's good - think of all the other contributors 23:06:54 ais523, mercurial works well 23:07:01 if you've found that out, can't we just get on with it and live in esogitty harmony 23:07:08 tusho: well, why can't we serve to them in both git and darcs? 23:07:10 ais523, and mercurial got a VERY GOOD code browser 23:07:17 not this again, we've already argued about this 23:07:19 AnMaster: try telling tusho that 23:07:27 AnMaster: mercurial does not support ais523's darcs-esque workflow in any way 23:07:29 e's the one who installed the browsers 23:07:31 and I know, having used it for ages 23:07:47 ais523, isn't there a good code browser for darcs too? 23:07:49 tusho: the main issue is you wanting to have a list of all the repos on the front page 23:07:52 autogenerated by cgit 23:07:54 no 23:07:57 it us not 23:08:05 otherwise having different browsers for different formats would be fine 23:08:05 that's utterly untrue 23:08:09 that's utterly untrue 23:08:14 ais523, a quick google: http://progetti.arstecnica.it/trac+darcs/ 23:08:21 and this belongs in #ESO 23:08:23 tusho: there's no other good reason to have /everything/ in git format 23:08:25 ais523, worth trying 23:08:27 and this belongs in #ESO 23:08:35 tusho: but then AnMaster couldn't join in the argument 23:08:38 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:08:46 ais523, that is what he wants! 23:08:47 ais523: his part consists of endlessly repeating 'use mercurial'... 23:08:59 ais523, so I agree lets keep it here 23:09:09 tusho, http://progetti.arstecnica.it/trac+darcs/ 23:09:29 AnMaster: yay! now I can use the shitty trac with darcs! 23:09:32 that solves all the world's problems 23:09:50 ais523, note I haven't tried that trac plugin so no idea if it is good 23:09:55 ais523, but maybe worth a truy 23:09:56 try* 23:10:10 i thought you were discussing this in #ESO 23:10:13 ...so I voice AnMaster in #ESO, and tusho leaves in protest? 23:10:21 tusho, no since you parted there 23:10:28 it was an opt-out of an argument going nowhere 23:10:32 which I'm not interested in following 23:11:41 hmm... trac's got a bit spiffier since I last used it 23:11:47 last year, on a major University project 23:11:57 ais523, yeah trac 0.11 is quite good 23:12:03 compared with the previous one 23:12:08 and it was pretty good even then 23:12:11 iirc 0.11 is still in beta though 23:12:11 i could go on about all the hidden gotchas and failures of trac 23:12:12 not sure 23:12:16 although tusho seems not to like it for some reason 23:12:21 tusho: go on, you might convince me 23:12:23 but I won't, because I opt-outed of that argument 23:12:32 tusho: well, then you won't convince me 23:12:37 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 23:12:39 if you don't provide arguments 23:12:46 ais523: i didn't have any hope of convincing you in the first place 23:12:51 lament, care to kickban tusho again? ;) 23:13:10 can someone other than tusho explain what happened then? 23:13:12 yes, because I have flagrantly disturbed the channel 23:13:19 I've heard the story from them, but it may be biased 23:13:28 and deserve a kickban from not wanting to participate in this 23:13:42 lol 23:13:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 23:13:43 i lol'd 23:13:50 anyway, I requested the kickban as a joke 23:13:55 ais523, well trac can be a bit hard to setup I agree, and it is a "all in one solution" which means it isn't the best at any of the tasks 23:13:58 oh, and Phenax was the one who was legitimately going to be kickbanned 23:14:02 but the parts integrate well 23:14:07 because he talks like this: 23:14:22 ais523, for example the trac bug tracker is quite bad compared with, say, mantis 23:14:25 or bugzilla 23:14:32 AnMaster: it reminded me of bugzilla a lot 23:14:33 but it integrate well into the other parts 23:14:46 im too fucking badass to get kickbanned motherfuckas! 23:14:46 AnMaster: c-intercal already has a bug tracker, for what it's worth 23:14:53 tusho: actually two 23:14:57 both Debian and Ubuntu set one up 23:15:03 ais523, hah 23:15:05 I think they do it as a matter of course 23:15:31 ais523, I may write an ebuild for c-intercal 23:15:31 nobody's tried to use Ubuntu's but me, though 23:15:32 :) 23:15:34 15:24:49 one tyme my profesor did dat 2 and i was like holy shat i got like 4 routersa that are MIPS 23:15:34 15:30:20 augur: im lookin fo sometin i can drink durin class i dun rly wanna pop any pills durin class 23:15:35 15:30:26 campus securiy canna b liek waddat 23:15:35 15:31:15 BUT I ALSO WANT TO FUCKIHN BURP IN MY PROFESSORS FACE AND IT NEEDS TO SMELL LIEK ENERGY 23:15:35 15:34:30 randall is betta dan spinelli olol 23:15:36 and it failed 23:15:37 etc 23:15:38 Phenax: are you at all interested in esoteric languages, or only in talking like a gangsta? 23:15:39 AnMaster: ebuild? 23:16:08 ais523, ebuild = gentoo package (or rather building instructions) 23:16:17 trac is missing good dependency support on bugs 23:16:20 that's one issue 23:16:22 AnMaster: interesting idea 23:16:31 there was an RPM at one point, but it's unmaintained 23:16:35 ais523, yes agreed about the bugs dependency, there is a plugin for it 23:16:38 there's a .deb 23:16:44 not sure if 0.11 got it by default 23:16:51 and apparently Debian got an earlier version running on the Hurd 23:16:53 ais523, an ebuild should be rather simple 23:16:54 ais523: anyway, if you found out that git supports your workflow fine, ESO already has some stuff working on git and it's all fine, can't we just stop talking about this and get on with things? 23:16:57 just a random idea 23:17:01 it's very unproductive, this 23:17:11 isn't is basically ./configure --prefix=/usr && make && make install 23:17:12 ? 23:17:15 tusho: maybe I want to do something other than ESO 23:17:20 AnMaster: yes 23:17:20 ais523, or is there any other steps? 23:17:31 ais523: and? 23:17:34 there shouldn't be if everything goes to plan 23:17:39 it was just an extra reason to use it 23:17:43 (along with its large adoption) 23:17:48 ais523, what about cflags? does a general sane CFLAGS="-O2 -march= -pipe" work for it? 23:18:00 AnMaster: yes 23:18:08 although I think the Makefile specifies its own cflags in some cases 23:18:12 oh, I think -j might fail 23:18:19 I may have to look into that 23:18:25 ais523, should be quite simple to write an ebuild 23:18:30 yes 23:18:36 need some MAKEOPTS filtering maybe 23:18:38 AnMaster: do you use gentoo? 23:18:45 ais523, yes of course 23:18:50 Gentoo, Arch and FreeBSD 23:18:51 :) 23:18:55 oh and OpenBSD 23:19:03 well, I'm pretty sure it works on the BSDs now 23:19:08 also used to use slackware, don't do atm 23:19:18 ais523, well bsd I use for servers... 23:19:22 apparently it didn't work on Cygwin the last time someone tried 23:19:25 not going to try c-intercal there 23:19:45 ais523, but DOS works? ;P 23:19:46 AnMaster: well, unless you have INTERCAL programs running on the servers and need to compile the libraries for OpenBSD/FreeBSD 23:19:49 AnMaster: yes 23:19:57 but I think the Cygwin person was using it wrong 23:20:01 or got the build process wrong 23:20:10 anyway I've torn out and replaced the build process since 23:20:15 so maybe it works now 23:20:15 AnMaster: well, unless you have INTERCAL programs running on the servers and need to compile the libraries for OpenBSD/FreeBSD <-- I don't... 23:20:41 AnMaster: if INTERCAL takes off, maybe some day you will need to run INTERCAL programs on your servers 23:20:50 ais523, not likely 23:20:51 takes off since 197X? :P 23:20:57 tusho, indeed 23:21:05 tusho: well, it got a lot more active in the early 1990s 23:21:11 when someone actually wrote a modern compiler for it 23:21:14 ais523: that's called "the internet" 23:21:18 and now its control structure is almost nice 23:21:33 its just expressions and string-handling that need help 23:21:58 ais523: and its syntax. 23:22:02 ais523, what is the official url to c-intercal? 23:22:09 AnMaster: has none 23:22:14 intercal.freeshell.org hosts the downloads 23:22:19 ais523, I mean the download 23:22:22 AnMaster: release versions: http://intercal.freeshell.org/download 23:22:26 maybe c-intercal.eso-std.org will show something at one point, though :-P 23:22:26 a mirror that is always up 23:22:35 ais523, that mirror have been down sometimes 23:22:37 hrrm 23:22:49 development version: currently http://eso-std.org/darcs/c-intercal 23:22:50 wow 23:22:53 that links to elliotthird.org 23:22:57 tusho: yes 23:23:05 although your mirror of it's missing 23:23:06 ais523: and soon to be http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal.git right? ;)) 23:23:10 and yes, it is 23:23:14 elliotthird.org is zip for now 23:23:25 ah, you put it back up 23:23:35 no i didn't 23:23:37 it just goes to eso-std.org 23:23:39 tusho: yes, you can have that URL fine, let me just set up a cronjob... 23:23:46 AIEEEEEEEEE! 23:23:47 ;) 23:25:47 AIEEEEEEEEEs523 23:25:51 that is more fitting 23:32:16 tusho: you killed the conversation 23:32:37 AnMaster: intercal.freeshell.org's mirrored itself, btw 23:32:39 KILLA 23:32:48 ais523, hm ok 23:33:19 at least, the files to download are 23:33:24 not sure about the page that links to them 23:34:54 http://packages.debian.org/sid/hurd-i386/intercal/download <-- seriously, what a ridiculous thing to do 23:35:03 * ais523 doubts anyone tries to run Intercal under Hurd 23:37:07 it's automatic ais523 ... 23:37:09 * AnMaster doubts anyone tries to run Hurd 23:37:15 tusho: yes, I know 23:37:23 but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous 23:37:41 at least, when Hurd finally takes off and overtakes Linux, people will be able to run INTERCAL programs on it! 23:38:29 ais523, would dev-util fit for c-intercal? 23:38:33 as a package category 23:38:38 what's dev-util for? 23:38:43 c-intercal's a compiler and debugger 23:38:52 so it should be in the same package category as gcc, probably 23:39:00 in terms of what it does, not in terms of importance 23:39:03 gcc is sys-dev iirc 23:39:12 which is reserved for system packages 23:39:16 ok, so less important, but the same sort of thing 23:39:19 ais523, anyway: http://rafb.net/p/G6tQAh69.html 23:39:21 dev-util seems about right 23:39:43 sys-devel/gcc 23:39:44 yeah 23:39:56 dev-util doesn't look like it contains compilers 23:40:10 just development utilities that aren't compilers or interps 23:40:14 http://rafb.net/p/PHuaTE63.html 23:40:16 but maybe I just don't recognise any there 23:40:32 what's in dev-lang? 23:40:45 http://rafb.net/p/JISgdH87.html 23:41:25 seems like it will fit there 23:41:25 ah, that looks more like it 23:41:47 presumably convickt would go in dev-util 23:41:57 but make install installs both ick and convickt at the moment 23:42:00 how was the version number now again? 23:42:06 iirc there was something complex there 23:42:08 read it right to left 23:42:18 blergh 23:42:40 well that means I will have to actually call it 28.0 in portage I guess 23:42:42 so 0.28 = 28.0 in a normal system 23:42:51 or 28:0.28 is what Debian call it 23:42:52 or the package manager will freak out 23:42:58 ais523, well : won't work 23:43:00 they dupe the most significant part to the start 23:43:07 as : is reserved for something else 23:43:14 AnMaster: epoch number? 23:43:21 ais523, for "slots" 23:43:21 that's what it means in Debian 23:43:26 otherwise, 28.0.28 I guess 23:43:32 as you can install different ones side by side 23:43:36 SUP NIGGAS 23:43:38 like gcc 3.x and gcc 4.x 23:43:40 side by side 23:43:44 or kde 3.x and kde 4.x 23:43:45 augur: ? 23:43:47 hey 23:43:56 actually 3.5.x and 4.0.x 23:43:58 ais523, ^ 23:44:01 ah 23:44:15 well, I think it's unlikely that people would simultaneously install two versions of C-INTERCAL 23:44:32 well portage would barf on a version containing ; 23:44:33 err 23:44:34 : 23:44:43 so 28.0.28 then 23:44:47 yes 23:44:49 so it sorts properly, and also looks right 23:45:18 also it has to be c_intercal 23:45:33 that seems reasonable 23:45:35 portage uses - to separate package name and version 23:45:39 it's just 'intercal' to debian 23:45:46 but that's just biased 23:45:57 clc_intercal deserves a say, too 23:46:06 or you could call it ick after the binary, but that's probably a bad idea 23:46:58 ais523, care to give me a one line package description? 23:47:01 very short 23:47:17 C-INTERCAL - INTERCAL to binary (via C) compiler 23:47:19 "The GNU Compiler Collection. Includes C/C++, java compilers, pie+ssp extensions, Haj Ten Brugge runtime bounds checking" is about max lenght 23:47:26 ok! 23:47:41 HOMEPAGE=""? 23:47:50 intercal.freeshell.org 23:47:52 for the time being 23:48:29 "http://intercal.freeshell.org/download/ick-0-28.tgz" 23:48:32 why not a .? 23:48:36 AnMaster: for dos 23:48:37 it would make my life easier :P 23:48:39 8.3 filenames and all that 23:51:01 o 23:51:07 oko 23:52:10 KEYWORDS="~alpha ~amd64 ~ia64 ~ppc ~ppc64 ~sparc ~x86 ~x86-fbsd" 23:52:11 ais523, ? 23:52:18 or what platforms does it work on? 23:52:21 well, it should work on all platforms 23:52:27 thanks in part to your debugging 23:52:34 oh, int has to be at least 32 bit 23:52:35 LICENSE? 23:52:39 but everything does that nowadays 23:52:45 GPL-2? GPL-3? 23:52:46 AnMaster: nearly all of it's GPL2 23:52:51 apart from the documentation's GFDL 23:52:53 ais523, well what one should I put there 23:52:57 ok GPL-2 23:52:58 and the skeleton files are PD 23:53:07 DEPENDS? 23:53:14 on what 23:53:18 gcc, 23:53:25 and development headers like stdio.h 23:53:33 presumably Gentoo will have those already 23:53:42 well yes 23:53:47 or it couldn't build it 23:53:53 but if you can build it, you can run it, I think 23:54:00 it *could* have another compiler 23:54:02 technically 23:54:05 like icc or pcc 23:54:12 well, C-INTERCAL can run on other compilers, technically 23:54:16 but that hasn't been tested for years 23:54:22 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:54:26 and some advanced features require gcc 23:54:50 >>> Creating Manifest for /usr/local/portage/generic-overlay/dev-lang/c_intercal 23:54:55 * AnMaster tries to unpack it 23:55:18 I have to leave in a couple of minutes 23:55:19 >>> Unpacking source... 23:55:19 >>> Unpacking ick-0-28.tgz to /var/tmp/portage/dev-lang/c_intercal-28.0.28/work 23:55:19 >>> Source unpacked. 23:55:22 because of midnight 23:55:33 argh 23:55:36 config.sh? 23:55:42 instead of configure 23:55:42 yes 23:55:47 that's configure, 8.3ised 23:55:48 that really really makes it complex 23:55:57 and I mean it 23:55:59 AnMaster: just add a symlink from configure 23:56:00 if you like 23:56:03 hm 23:56:05 it'll work 23:56:10 or rename it 23:56:11 -!- edwardk has joined. 23:57:18 well I'm asking in #gentoo-dev-help now 23:57:42 -!- tusho has quit. 23:57:51 hi I need some help with a package that call it's configure for "config.sh" due to dos compatibility (yes!) 23:57:51 how do you tell econf about that? 23:58:13 gtg, sorry 23:58:20 but I'll see how it went tommorow, probably 23:58:22 bye 23:58:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:58:25 symlink 23:59:43 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).