etc. replace them and have real semantic meaning to boot) 17:18:14 if only HTML5 had the href on every element like XHTML2 is to have 17:18:32 Deewiant: no 17:18:39 they said why they don't do it 17:18:40 basically 17:18:55 oh, I didn't hear of this 17:19:12 it doesn't make sense for every element (form inputs etc), it's redundant to an inner (and isn't worth the few less keystrokes), and browser makers said it'd be _really, really damn hard_ to do with their current code 17:19:17 all in all not worth it 17:19:47 (ais523: also, the css is 11 lines when compacted a little.) 17:19:49 it's not always redundant to an inner , you also need some CSS in some cases 17:20:06 e.g.

bar

17:20:08 (though I don't style lists, blockquotes etc yet, I'll do that when I need them) 17:20:15 the a encompasses only the text, not the whole list element 17:20:21 Deewiant: even so, it overwhelmingly commonly is redundant 17:20:23 so. 17:20:29 true 17:20:35 I just think it's more semantic to not have an 17:21:20 oh, happy Windows XP end-of-line day, everyone! 17:22:06 it is still possible to obtain Windows XP by purchasing Vista Ultimate or Vista Business and then downgrading to Windows XP. 17:22:09 :-P 17:22:11 ais523, eh? 17:22:17 Sales of Windows XP ceased on June 30, 2008 17:22:32 no not EOL+ 17:22:35 er 17:22:37 EOL* 17:22:43 end of production line 17:22:46 I suppose 17:22:51 ais523: lolololololol 17:22:53 ah 17:22:56 microsoft just killed itself a bit more 17:23:01 yep 17:23:03 ais523, and it is sad 17:23:05 sad, seally 17:23:09 yes, it is 17:23:12 s/se/re/ 17:23:16 they were so close to actually getting better 17:23:16 because xp was good compared to vista 17:23:18 and they nose-dived instead 17:23:25 yep 17:23:41 developers developers developers developers. 17:23:46 >_< 17:23:49 haha 17:23:49 it sounds almost like an obituary now 17:28:13 -!- oklopol has quit (No route to host). 17:35:43 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:48:37 -!- timotiis has joined. 17:54:34 -!- oklopol has joined. 18:00:11 -!- ais523_ has joined. 18:00:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:00:44 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 18:04:47 -!- Judofyr has joined. 18:33:19 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 18:33:20 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:35:01 -!- Slereah has joined. 18:35:01 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:36:30 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:40:08 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 18:44:36 ah I found my compacted css 18:44:38 ais523: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1058380 19:01:56 ah, I found one bug that was causing IFFI to not work 19:02:00 although there may be others 19:02:11 it was a weird interaction of recursion and global variables 19:02:20 when I wrote that bit of code, I didn't expect it to be used recursively 19:07:58 -!- Corun has joined. 19:16:20 AnMaster: how do I turn trace-mode on in cfunge, internally? 19:16:25 as in, by manipulating the values of variables 19:16:28 rather than with command line args 19:16:37 ais523, check settings.h 19:16:53 ok 19:18:49 ais523, which is the same way that main.c do it when it parses command line arguments ;P 19:19:20 /// Out of order to make default initialise to 0. 19:19:20 /// (A few bytes smaller binary that way, The standard one should always be 0) 19:19:32 ais523, yes hehe :P 19:19:35 sorry, I can understand you optimising for speed, but binary size? 19:19:38 >_< 19:19:41 he's insane 19:19:46 ais523, yes that too, just to irritate everyone 19:19:47 :P 19:19:55 * AnMaster is laughing now 19:20:05 there is such an incongruity when C-INTERCAL and cfunge are linked together... 19:20:10 at least they both share the same naming scheme 19:20:13 ais523, a what? 19:20:17 "incongruity"? 19:20:31 AnMaster: you know, I think doing so many things just to irritate people is slightly disturbed 19:20:35 also what do you mean with same naming scheme? 19:20:40 AnMaster: ridiculously optimised on one hand vs. inherently slow on the other 19:20:43 tusho, thanks! 19:20:52 ais523, yes :P 19:20:55 thanks ais523 19:20:58 I mean, C-INTERCAL is optimised too, to some extent, but INTERCAL suffers from computational class problems 19:21:05 e.g. computed COME FROM 19:21:10 haha 19:21:12 s/class/order/ 19:21:43 incidentally, I'm pretty proud of the C-INTERCAL optimiser; me and one other person are working on it, and it can often optimise INTERCAL expressions into the C they were generated from in the first place 19:21:52 haha 19:21:54 :) 19:22:01 ais523, anyway yes cfunge is insane in parts 19:22:05 the debugger even has an explain-this-expression tool 19:22:32 what should I set the trace level to, by the way? 19:22:36 ais523, consider I spent about half a day reorganizing structs to avoid holes on 64-bit and 32-bit as much as possible :P 19:22:48 ais523, well depends on how much you want 19:22:49 the situation I have is that the main loop is looping, but the program isn't doing anything and it ought to and I don't know wh 19:22:51 3 or 9 19:22:52 s/$/y/ 19:22:53 try either 19:23:04 ais523, higher level = more tracing 19:23:11 is 9 the highest level? 19:23:19 ais523, well currently yes 19:23:23 maybe not in the future 19:23:30 ais523, anyway yes cfunge is insane in parts 19:23:31 in parts. 19:23:33 IN PARTS? 19:23:36 and what level should I use to see commands and stack as they execute 19:23:45 tusho: cfunge is saner than glue.c99 19:23:51 glue.c99? 19:23:52 ais523, hm trace print each instruction as it is executed 19:23:55 for stack: gdb 19:23:55 the file I'm writing which is half cfunge and half C-INTERCAL 19:23:57 sorry 19:24:00 ais523, :/ 19:24:16 ok, but I thought that if trace levels went up to 9 displaying stack was quite likely 19:24:16 ais523: well, that's because you have to work around AnMaster's mental disorder of optimization :-P 19:24:22 (joking, joking) 19:24:31 here, I'll paste glue.c99 as it is at the moment 19:24:36 so you can see it in all its glory 19:24:44 does not compute, debug info missing due to optimizing 19:24:49 ais523, I'd love to see 19:25:06 Can anyone explain how I would implement something like pointers in Brainfuck? For example, say a cell holds the value 10. How would I make the pointer move 10 places? 19:25:12 ais523, I don't have tracing of current stack atm, should be simple to implement 19:25:13 jamesstanley: i don't think you can 19:25:16 'cause you have to move back 19:25:18 so you need infinite counters 19:25:21 and even then I doubt it'd work 19:25:22 I can do that if you want 19:25:27 jamesstanley: however 19:25:30 you can do it 19:25:33 oh? 19:25:36 but you have to modify the space you move over 19:25:43 http://pastebin.ca/1059256 19:25:46 ENTRY 1 ENTRY 1 ENTRY 1 ... LASTENTRY 0 19:25:47 Yeah, I'd already though of that way 19:25:56 then you use a quick loop over going two elements at a time 19:26:07 I need to keep the data intact though 19:26:10 generally speaking you make every second (or third, or whatever) cell hold a 0 19:26:14 then you know you can clobber it safely 19:26:17 as temporaries 19:26:24 ais523: # 19:26:24 #ifdef CONCURRENT_FUNGE 19:26:24 # 19:26:24 #error The C-INTERCAL/cfunge external calls interface cannot be used concurrently 19:26:24 # 19:26:25 #endif 19:26:26 that would be UFN 19:26:27 it's quite hard to do things efficiently without temporaries 19:26:28 *FUN 19:26:33 OK 19:26:37 AnMaster: copyright notice OK, by the way 19:26:44 i like iffi 19:26:49 ais523, sure 19:26:49 ick, iffi... 19:26:50 jamesstanley: oh, if you only have one array there's a trick you can use where you put a couple of zeros before it 19:26:52 yuk... 19:27:01 ais523, I thought they were a bit longer, with info how to contact GNU and such? 19:27:18 and then move elements to the left as you scan through them and use the gaps for temporaries 19:27:22 AnMaster: whoops, yes, I'll add that 19:27:29 OK. Thanks 19:27:32 ais523, I don't like your indention style but ;P 19:27:49 oh, and someone who knows Befunge, verify that I got that hello, world right please 19:27:58 ais523, didn't you say that ick already did the srandom stuff? 19:28:11 AnMaster: I checked, sometimes it uses random and sometimes it uses rand 19:28:21 ais523, it looks correct 19:28:22 anyway, this time it seeds exactly twice at the start of the program 19:28:25 which isn't a problem 19:28:43 true 19:29:21 ais523, the tracing is done in the main loop, which could be a problem for you I guess 19:29:42 the hello world is correct 19:29:48 AnMaster: ugh, yes 19:29:52 because I'm replacing it 19:29:56 it had to be in an ICK_EC_FUNC really 19:30:04 which is like an ordinary function just more interesting 19:30:06 ais523, well copy and paste some code then :7 19:30:08 :/* 19:30:36 I really ought to merge the Befunge tracing with INTERCAL tracing, really 19:30:44 I have +printflow as a trace option in INTERCAL programs already 19:30:45 'Interesting functions' sounds like a haskell thing 19:30:48 I just need to make cfunge use it 19:30:52 there should be a formal definition for what makes a function interesting 19:30:56 (well, just mathematics when I think about it) 19:32:07 tusho: well, from a programmer's point of view the definition of an ICK_EC_FUNC is "one where people can goto() into anywhere in the function from outside 19:32:10 s/$/"? 19:32:15 s/?/\// 19:32:18 ais523: how does a macro do that? 19:32:28 oh, does it require yield statements? 19:32:32 lol@finite state machines 19:32:35 tusho: basically there's a global which switches the function between two modes of operation 19:32:43 one which acts as the target for gotos, with a protocol involved 19:32:48 and the other which just runs the function 19:33:10 ais523: can I see an expansion of an ICK_EC_FUNC? 19:33:15 the entire body of the function is wrapped in an if() 19:33:16 and the original source 19:33:26 and sure, I'll paste glue.cio for you 19:33:33 which is the expanded version 19:33:38 but minus all the blank lines at the start 19:33:39 glue.cio max.imus 19:33:44 and the preprocessor stuff 19:34:36 tusho: actually, do you mind if I run it through indent first? 19:34:39 it all comes out on the same line 19:34:40 nope 19:35:40 ais523, I'm adding that tracing now 19:35:49 http://pastebin.ca/1059264 19:35:57 that's the ICK_EC_FUNC at the end, in the .cio 19:36:08 that is, once it's been preprocessed twice, once by gcc -E, once by ick itself 19:36:44 oh, and the goto labels there are generated, not hardcoded 19:38:41 ais523: ah, so ick does the transformation itself 19:38:41 not the cpp 19:38:41 OK 19:38:49 tusho: they both do 19:38:53 well, yes 19:38:58 but ick actually mangles the function body 19:39:00 OK, i understand now 19:39:01 the cpp substitutes in most of the code 19:39:06 including the bits in the body 19:39:10 and ick does fixup 19:39:22 making all the gotos point to the right place and all the labels have unique names 19:42:12 but yes, ick does mess with the C source quite a bit 19:45:06 ais523, well it is done except it cases valgrind error 19:45:09 errors* 19:45:12 * AnMaster debugs 19:47:03 ah off by one error 19:47:13 hiya! :D 19:47:25 hi augur 19:47:33 hows it goin 19:47:42 augur: well, fffungi is making progress 19:47:44 slowly 19:47:48 fffungi? 19:47:57 ais523, pull 19:47:57 augur: Funge/INTERCAL ffi 19:48:04 oh boy 19:48:07 ais523, err wait 19:48:11 it is still pushing 19:49:01 ais523, the new main loop will now print the 5 top elements on the stack when trace level is 8 or higher 19:49:07 ok 19:49:07 you could copy that to your code? 19:49:19 oops 19:49:19 yes, I could, probably 19:49:21 sorry issue 19:49:29 ais523, I only did change for concurrent *fixes* 19:50:26 ais523, pushing again now 19:50:29 pushed 19:50:31 so pull 20:00:01 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 20:01:06 ais523, was it useful? 20:01:14 I'm pulling right now 20:01:24 I was reading something else before that 20:01:35 -!- Corun has joined. 20:05:57 AnMaster: you probably want >=8 rather than >8 in your tracelevel setting 20:06:19 ais523, ah I meant at 9 or above 20:06:21 :P 20:06:31 (actually I didn't 20:07:12 glue.c99:106: warning: implicit declaration of function ‘PrintStackTop’ 20:07:21 have you changed the list of include files for interpreter.c? 20:07:33 ais523, include stack.h 20:07:34 hmm, no, it doesn't link 20:07:41 is PrintStackTop a macro? 20:07:47 ais523, no a function 20:07:57 I wonder why the link failed, then 20:08:10 and stack.h is already included 20:08:11 ais523, well does your stack.h have it? 20:08:18 ah, that could be the issue 20:08:22 maybe you did something with the update 20:08:27 so you didn't include it 20:08:33 ais523, as I just added that function 20:08:38 it's new 20:08:53 ick -begOUY stub.i *.c99 */*.c99 */*/*.c99 ../lib/*/*.c99 20:09:03 just so I remember the command line 20:09:04 ais523, well that could be the issue 20:09:06 which is nontrivial at current 20:09:09 and yes, I think it was 20:09:16 it would be *.c vs *.c99 20:09:31 ais523, set up a system of symlinks? 20:09:37 would work better 20:09:50 AnMaster: actually, I'm keeping separate modified and unmodified source trees and copying the changes over 20:10:09 ais523, you could use bzr to keep track of your own branch ;P 20:10:26 this is distributed version control after all 20:10:34 yes, I suppose so 20:10:37 but I don't know bzr 20:10:55 and renaming all the files in a repo is not a common thing to do anyway 20:11:11 ais523, anyway if you build a debug build you get some more debugging from inside gdb: StackDump(stack *) and FungeSpaceDump() 20:11:24 that you can use with call 20:11:26 in gdb 20:11:34 ais523, that was how I did debugging mostly 20:11:59 ah, the error seems to be that the IP never moves for some reason 20:12:03 ais523, also see etc/example.gdbinit in cfunge top dir 20:12:28 ais523, care to pastebin the current code and I will try to read it 20:12:46 it's the same as what I've already pastebinned apart from turning on tracing 20:13:17 do I need to paste again, or will the previous paste do? 20:13:32 the old will do 20:13:57 ais523, hrrm 20:14:37 ais523, can you use gdb or something, there are some stuff I want you to run in it just *after* ExecuteInstruction() 20:14:42 but before the next statement 20:14:49 print IP->needMove 20:15:20 AnMaster: I'll try to load it in gdb, luckily it reaches that point before it gets confused 20:15:20 print IP->delta 20:15:31 those two I need to know 20:16:10 ok, stepping to the right point now 20:16:22 I guess breakpoint doesn't work heh 20:16:26 p IP->needMove 20:16:26 $1 = true 20:16:32 and the the other one? 20:16:43 p IP->delta 20:16:43 $2 = {x = 1, y = 0} 20:16:46 ok 20:16:57 let me step past the ipForward and see if its location changes 20:17:10 print IP->position 20:17:10 s 20:17:11 u 20:17:12 print IP->position 20:17:14 will do that 20:17:14 p IP->position 20:17:32 wait it won't 20:17:34 sorry: 20:17:39 not u but full until 20:17:52 or maybe not 20:18:06 $3 = {x = 0, y = 0} 20:18:06 apparently not, that's strange 20:18:11 ais523, anyway yes what is it after and before ipForward 20:18:32 0,0 is normal start value 20:18:50 1: IP->position = {x = 0, y = 0} 20:18:54 (gdb) n 20:18:54 115 ipForward(IP, 1); 20:18:54 1: IP->position = {x = 0, y = 0} 20:18:54 (gdb) n 20:18:54 98 while(!ick_iffi_breakloop) 20:18:55 1: IP->position = {x = 0, y = 0} 20:18:56 ok 20:18:59 that is wrong 20:19:03 yes 20:19:10 presumably the error's in ipForward somehow 20:19:21 ip->position.x += ip->delta.x * steps; 20:19:21 I'll try stepping into it 20:19:21 ip->position.y += ip->delta.y * steps; 20:19:26 really can't see how that can go wrong 20:19:28 oh wait 20:19:31 I think I see 20:19:41 ais523, a sec *need to figure out how to correctly do this call* 20:20:06 ais523, step into some function that fetches instruction from funge space 20:20:10 then do: 20:20:11 AnMaster: ah, I see what's happening 20:20:15 it does move inside ipForward 20:20:23 print fspace->bottomRightCorner 20:20:32 but then fungeSpaceWrap screws up 20:20:33 I suspect the wrapping is messed up by something 20:20:45 ais523, yes exactly 20:20:46 print fspace->bottomRightCorner 20:20:46 $6 = {x = 0, y = 1} 20:20:49 ugh, that's wrong 20:20:49 um 20:20:53 yes it is 20:21:00 now to find out why 20:21:08 presumably your load-from-string gets it wrong 20:21:17 after all, you said it was untested 20:21:22 yes 20:21:51 * AnMaster scratches head while reading it 20:22:28 ais523, the cheap way around would be to change FungeSpaceSetNoBoundUpdate to FungeSpaceSet but that would be less performant when loading the program ;P 20:22:47 * ais523 laughs 20:22:59 ais523, but I think that is what I will do anyway 20:25:30 ais523, pushing a new revision that uses FungeSpaceSet() instead of trying to do itself 20:25:33 pushed 20:25:40 updates funge-space.c 20:26:04 ais523, NOT TESTED except that it compiles 20:27:44 ok, let me try it 20:31:37 ais523, any luck? 20:35:52 AnMaster: just about to test now 20:38:25 In brainloller/copter does execution start at pixel 0,0? 20:38:47 AnMaster: also works 20:38:50 jamesstanley: yes, I think 20:38:55 OK, Thanks 20:38:55 AnMaster: s/also/almost/ 20:38:59 it's clipping off the last character 20:39:07 at least, that's how it's acting 20:39:13 I get an infinite loop of "Hello, world!2 20:39:15 s/2/"/ 20:39:16 And also, when execution reaches the edge of the image, what happens? 20:39:27 Or is this undefined and I should explicitly specify an IP rotate? 20:39:30 *rotater 20:39:41 let me read the spec 20:39:44 OK 20:39:50 Where is the spec? The wiki page? 20:39:59 ais523, wtf 20:40:03 generally if the spec isn't the wiki page it's linked from it 20:40:07 OK 20:40:09 ais523, that shouldn't happen 20:40:20 ais523, and I can't explain it 20:40:30 jamesstanley: ah, it's defined by a reference interp 20:40:30 * AnMaster writes some custom code to debug this 20:40:37 let me try to figure out what it's doing at that point 20:40:46 AnMaster: let me just check to make sure I didn't forget the @ 20:40:50 You needn't bother if you don't want to ais523 20:40:57 I can read it myself now I know where to look. Thanks! 20:41:11 -When the IP reaches the edge of the PNG image and goes outside, the program will stop (END). 20:41:15 jamesstanley, there are specs for funge 20:41:17 it's in a comment in the reference INTERP 20:41:18 OK 20:41:24 funge93 and funge98 20:41:26 AnMaster: he's referring to brainloller 20:41:30 see the esolang wiki 20:41:31 oh ok 20:41:37 and why did I write INTERP in allcaps? 20:41:51 I am going to add these two points to the wiki page. Thanks for your help. 20:42:44 well I get it too 20:43:23 ais523, I get this bug too and can't explain it *debugs* 20:44:40 ais523: H(intercal,interp) = 5 20:44:59 oklopol: an interesting but slightly pointless observation 20:45:17 ais523: and why did I write INTERP in allcaps? <<< 20:45:38 ah, yes, that's probably why 20:45:50 i thought that'd be a fun way to say it with only you getting it 20:46:08 heh? 20:46:25 oklopol, I don't get it 20:46:31 oh, still not? good 20:47:21 oklopol: wot 20:47:43 wot wot? 20:47:52 o 20:47:56 oko 20:49:00 code 20:49:02