00:04:08 it's all good 00:08:49 oh, and would I really have to be insane in order to idle here for a long time? 00:09:10 after all, this place has it's charm 00:09:22 since I can't say anything smart here 00:09:56 nobody can say anything smart here 00:09:58 or they will get banned 00:10:13 especially nothing smart-ass 00:10:24 oh 00:10:25 well 00:10:34 lilja: we're all stupid in here. 00:10:34 yeah, could be 00:10:37 lilja has a very smart ass 00:10:42 :\ 00:10:54 :D 00:11:37 in fact we should institute a maximum IQ law. 00:11:51 People with IQ higher than 98 are not allowed in the channel. 00:11:53 lament: of 4 00:11:56 98? shesh 00:11:58 *sheesh 00:11:58 I don't really know if you ever say anything that makes sense, since I hardly understand anything you're saying.. it's rather relaxing 00:11:59 the problem is we would have to be smart to measure that 00:12:07 oerjan: solution - 00:12:09 kickban everyone 00:12:15 lament: do the honours 00:12:18 ah yes! brilliant! 00:12:23 ban *!*@* and /cs #esoteric clean 00:12:24 i actually think i read somewhere that apart from the brain and the spinal cord, the ass is the cleverest thing in the human body 00:12:27 you can unban us after a few minutes. 00:12:29 but come on. 00:12:59 you mean, "Apart from the spinal cord and, sometimes, the brain..." 00:13:05 oklopol: how's so? 00:13:08 lament: it'd get rid of all the idiots in here! 00:13:12 lilja: crap control 00:13:20 ooh 00:13:21 the immune system is pretty smart, i think 00:13:27 your ass doesn't just spout it aroud all the time 00:13:41 eyes are pretty smart, unless you count them as part of the brain 00:13:44 oklopol: mine does 00:14:00 diarrhea is when crap beats your ass in chess 00:14:17 that's - mind boggling 00:14:23 ass boggling, too 00:14:25 oerjan: don't you mean - ass boggling? 00:14:28 hahahhahahaha 00:14:31 :) 00:14:51 we should have a too-obvious-joke policy here 00:14:54 great asses think alike 00:15:04 oklopol: you're required to say them? 00:15:18 Let's all say an obvious joke, then. 00:15:22 An obvious joke. 00:15:35 I don't think I can, my ass is shitting a lot right now. 00:15:36 ihope: actually the obvious joke would've been 00:15:36 Sorry 00:15:39 Your mom is an obvious joke. 00:15:45 That's what SHE said! 00:15:50 lament: haha, that was pretty good. 00:15:51 :\ 00:15:55 "let's start saying obvious jokes then" 00:15:59 -!- RedDak has joined. 00:16:06 you would've doubled tusho's joke 00:16:14 thus making the obvious joke, considering what i just said 00:16:20 ok. 00:16:41 PLEASE SAY AN OBVIOUS JOKE 00:16:50 * tusho craps 00:16:57 AN OBVIOUS JOKE. 00:17:14 we're good at this. 00:17:30 lament: yeah. 00:17:40 Holy crap, a talking lament. 00:17:53 totally lamentable 00:17:59 sorry, i'll shut up 00:18:10 I not know what is a shut up. Do not call me a shut up. 00:18:57 i don't get it 00:19:36 lament: please ban *!*@*? 00:19:54 unsafePerformBan *!*@* 00:20:05 lament: in IRC, not haskell 00:20:14 * ihope sets mode #esoteric: +b *!*@* 00:20:21 that's what she did 00:20:22 * lament bans *!*@* 00:20:23 ihope: Not in /me. 00:20:29 Not in /me. In /ban. 00:20:47 * ihope sets mode #esoteric: +b *!*@* 00:21:02 That was not in /me, but it was not in /ban, either. Whatever it was. 00:21:17 That was in /me, ihope 00:21:24 Or rather, in \1ACTION\1 00:21:36 \1ACTION\1 isn't /me. :-P 00:22:11 -!- lament has set topic: fuck man i'm haf fah m'i nam kcuf | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | *!*@* is banned. If you're banned, please leave the channel.. 00:22:16 It's what /me generates. 00:22:20 lament: type /ban *!*@* 00:22:22 and hit enter 00:22:25 note: not //ban *!*@* 00:22:28 but /ban *!*@* 00:22:43 done 00:22:49 [ERROR] You need to be an operator in #esoteric to do that. 00:22:55 lament: ok, instead 00:23:00 type /msg ChanServ op #esoteric 00:23:01 hit enter 00:23:04 type /ban *!*@* 00:23:06 hit enter 00:23:10 type /deop lament 00:23:10 hit enter 00:23:21 this is getting too complicated 00:23:33 you can't honestly expect me to follow all that 00:23:35 Is "MODE #esoteric :+b *!*@*" the correct syntax? 00:23:38 i'd get lost halfway 00:23:41 lament: good point, let me make it simpler 00:23:48 lament: ok 00:23:55 type /msg ChanServ ban #esoteric *!*@* 00:23:57 hit enter 00:23:58 that's it 00:24:27 lament: done that? 00:24:33 Yes. 00:24:37 at least the insanity quotient is coming along splendidly 00:24:38 ok, no more requests. :) 00:24:44 lament: how did you do that 00:24:47 we are still talking. 00:25:02 tusho: because it's not a valid chanserv command and never has been. 00:25:11 oh, true 00:25:16 details, i know. 00:25:24 lament: okay, can I give you one more, super easy request. 00:25:27 I'll make it all short 00:25:38 thn ... means 'type this: ... then hit enter' 00:25:40 o 00:25:42 thn /cs op #esoteric 00:25:45 thn /ban *!*@* 00:25:46 that's it 00:26:21 lament: simple enough? 00:26:24 what's "thn" how do you expect him to remember that? 00:26:43 oklopol: thn means 'type the following then enter' 00:26:50 Done. No more requests. 00:26:58 lament: .. How come? 00:27:06 :) 00:27:13 lament: What happened. 00:27:17 :) 00:27:43 :( 00:27:46 tusho: Why do you expect /cs to do anything? 00:27:52 from(ChanServ) You are not authorized to perform this operation. 00:27:59 lament: I know your client supports it. 00:28:01 kulkuset, kulkuset, kilvan helkkäilee 00:28:15 -!- Irssi: Unknown command: cs 00:28:33 You know wrong. 00:28:37 it should start an irc based counter strike 00:29:24 lament: can I give you one more request? 00:29:28 just pipe graphics through /privmsg's 00:29:28 No. 00:29:32 why not :( 00:30:36 because you're an antisocial freak who wants to ban everybody 00:31:17 besides, the topic already says everybody is banned. 00:31:30 tusho: I'll do something you want me to do! 00:31:45 i only wanna ban everyone for a second, lament 00:31:45 :( 00:32:00 Join #everyoneisbanned! 00:32:45 heh 00:32:59 Gasp! 00:33:20 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:34:20 N is fun 00:34:59 oklopol: miksi helkkäili? 00:35:08 tuntui siltä 00:35:10 ihope: nobody can join it 00:35:15 tusho: did you try? 00:35:20 Yes. 00:35:20 ehkä se oli tämä hulluusteema, joka sai haluni kohoamaan 00:35:25 ihope: you can't join a room you're banned from. 00:35:33 Oh. 00:35:46 Try now. 00:36:03 no 00:36:04 :P 00:36:09 mutta siinähän voisi olla järkeä! 00:36:15 You tried it again and it didn't work? 00:36:32 Oh, silly me. Try again. 00:36:37 -!- twistle has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:37:02 I unbanned ehird instead of tusho. 00:37:43 ihope: Are you good at N 00:37:56 What is N? 00:38:20 yksi kaksi kolme! 00:38:30 Germanic! 00:38:33 vittu koskenkorvaa pilluun 00:38:37 http://www.addictinggames.com/ngame.html 00:38:39 :\ 00:38:42 :\ 00:38:53 -!- twistle has joined. 00:38:57 go ski into a cunt! 00:39:00 Finno-Ugric! 00:39:00 lilja: don't worry, no one active is finnish 00:39:01 :\ 00:39:11 kyllä sinä taidat olla oudompi... 00:39:12 so no one can get offended 00:39:17 i'm offended 00:39:29 at least i know what vittu means 00:39:37 damn 00:39:46 the one fucking op on the whole chan! 00:39:46 jos se olisikin vittukoskenkorvaa? 00:39:55 vitunkorvaa 00:39:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_profanity 00:40:03 :\ 00:40:20 mikähän se on? 00:40:21 damn, that almost translates all of my sentence 00:40:27 yep 00:40:32 vitunkorva is the ear of the vagina 00:40:37 you should know 00:40:45 the what of the what? 00:41:00 ear is the thingie you hear through 00:41:00 hei hei! 00:41:04 minä tiedän! 00:41:25 lilja: i doubt the finnish is as fun to the others as it is for us :P 00:41:33 * oklopol is scared of lament 00:41:47 lament: did you catch my other dream about you? 00:41:53 no 00:41:53 klitoriksen luona on se sellainen tosi etäisesti korvaa muistuttava juttu, se sen täytyy olla 00:41:55 what happened? 00:42:12 lament: well basically 00:42:14 i shot this guy 00:42:18 and got really scared 00:42:26 you were on the cover of an energy drink 00:42:29 * oerjan points out that klitoris is an international word 00:42:30 half picture, half alive 00:42:31 oklopol: you started it :( 00:43:09 and i kinda wanted you to tell me it's okay or something 00:43:15 but you'd turned away 00:43:22 needless to say, i was devastated 00:44:07 awful 00:44:25 lmao 00:44:26 also, vittu _has_ to be related to the corresponding norwegian word. finnish doesn't have f does it? 00:44:32 it does 00:44:39 but f->v is common 00:45:22 oklopol: ep1lvl1 00:45:22 on n 00:45:23 halp 00:45:33 -!- twistle has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:45:52 wait 00:45:56 tusho's keyboard has defected on him 00:46:00 err can you link? i don't wanna ggl 00:46:11 oh wait 00:46:19 that actually _did_ make sense 00:46:34 episode 11 lvl 1 on the ninja game n, help 00:46:39 *episode 1 00:46:39 no 00:46:40 episode 1 00:46:43 level 1 00:46:47 err 00:46:47 yeah, typero 00:46:48 level 4 00:46:51 oklopol: it's "steps" 00:47:01 humm? 00:47:24 if "korva" means ear, what does "kosken" mean? 00:48:18 Easks? 00:48:31 o_O 00:49:17 koski is like, rapids 00:49:50 or rapid, dunno what the basic form is 00:50:05 and kosken is the genetive 00:50:55 ear of rapid? er... 00:51:27 yeah, literally speaking, it means that 00:51:29 :D 00:52:15 EAR OF RAPID 00:52:19 oerjan: you're an ear of rapid 00:52:22 but i think it's something like a whirlpool 00:52:26 ah, wikipedia has something to say 00:52:26 not that i have any idea 00:52:31 Koskenkorva is a small village - that belongs to municipality of Ilmajoki - in Finland that translates as "(area) by the rapids". The folk etymology "rapid's ear" is based on the fact that korva also means "ear". 00:52:44 oh, right 00:52:46 makes more sense 00:53:09 has to do with the form of the rapids, not the actual water flow 00:53:19 oerjan: you're an ear of a small village!!!!! 00:53:28 koskenkorvankorva 00:53:41 tusho: what? 00:53:58 just insulting you. 00:54:20 i see how you get ear from "oer" but not how you get a small village from "jan" :D 00:54:29 jan=town 00:54:38 clearly 00:54:45 Earton. 00:56:10 now, it _could_ be interpreted as "Jan with the ear(s)" 00:56:52 -!- tusho has set topic: Jan with the ear. Tunes dot org / ~nef / logs / esoteric.. 00:57:31 yay, i'm in the topic! 00:58:06 -!- oklopol has set topic: Jan with the ear. Tunes dot org / ~nef / logs / esoteric. Also oklopol is now in the topic, come and see.. 01:01:50 brb 01:01:52 er 01:01:54 I mean 01:01:55 bye 01:02:01 -!- tusho has quit. 01:04:12 he left, never to return 01:05:01 so oerjan, how's it going? 01:05:10 tell me one personal detail, right here, on the channel 01:05:23 i'm eating 01:05:47 holy shit 01:05:49 ? 01:05:51 bread with cod caviar 01:06:01 ah 01:06:05 now i will move on to the strawberry jam 01:06:14 go on, go on 01:06:35 then i shall delight on mackerel in tomato sauce 01:06:57 and finally a liver paté 01:13:10 :( 01:13:13 I'm hungry 01:38:16 Ooh, personal detail. 01:38:32 god i'm horny 01:38:35 My full name, including my middle name, contains an even number of letters. 01:38:55 I'm pretty sure, at least. 01:39:00 ooh, you have a middle name? 01:39:10 * oerjan doesn't 01:39:18 It's possible that my middle name contains one more letter than I think it does, but I don't think so. 01:40:44 i had sort of assumed you were able to spell your own name, here 01:42:46 I'd probably get the spelling right, but there's still a significant chance I wouldn't. 01:44:17 -!- kwertii has joined. 01:44:28 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:45:39 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 02:45:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:57:58 -!- Dewi has joined. 02:58:24 -!- atsampso1 has joined. 03:03:44 -!- atsampson has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:51:26 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 04:19:21 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 05:20:16 name the game, brother... I can't say but I know another way, brother. We ain't playin' we just sayin' that it's a dang shame, that you didn't take the blue pill, I hear you bitch but it means nill - I watch you kill the time like ya out of ya mind like the silver platter don't matter - ain't enough, ain't nothing to you. 05:21:59 yes 05:22:09 that's *exactly* what your mom said last night 05:54:55 -!- lilja has quit ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'"). 06:15:35 -!- kwertii has quit ("bye"). 06:19:44 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombgirl. 06:32:04 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 06:32:38 -!- bsmntbombgirl has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 07:16:01 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:46:57 -!- RedDak has joined. 10:05:07 -!- lilja has joined. 10:37:56 -!- lilja has quit ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'"). 10:38:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Remote closed the previous member app"). 10:39:26 -!- olsner has joined. 12:13:27 -!- Corun has joined. 12:50:23 -!- olsner has quit. 12:51:17 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:42:10 -!- RedDak has joined. 14:02:53 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:13:07 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:18:53 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:47:13 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 14:53:16 -!- Corun has joined. 14:58:08 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:04:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 15:19:44 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:49:54 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 15:50:58 -!- Corun has joined. 16:18:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:23:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:27:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:32:59 -!- tusho has joined. 16:33:32 hi ais523 16:33:36 hi tusho 16:33:54 I WON 16:33:56 er 16:33:58 i won 16:34:00 trivially 16:34:02 lol capslock 16:35:27 yes, I wasn't watching IRC at the time 16:35:30 but instead reading my email 16:36:57 my desk appears to have come loose 16:36:59 jaggling around as i type 16:46:14 -!- olsner has joined. 16:46:26 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:50:18 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 16:52:14 -!- olsner has quit. 17:08:58 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 17:13:21 Hello 17:13:27 hello 17:13:45 phew :P 17:13:56 Hiato: worrying whether your connection was working? 17:14:18 nope, I was worrying whether or not anyone was alive here 17:14:20 ;) 17:15:19 alright, this is a two parter 17:15:32 for those interested (or alive, or whose name is ais523) 17:15:37 http://www.mediafire.com/upload_complete.php?id=gxbfcxsyg2r 17:15:51 that is part one, I need to know where I have gone wrong so I can move to part two :P 17:15:53 it's a spec 17:16:30 Hiato: a two parter spec? 17:16:33 what is it, a word document? 17:16:37 ASCII. Do you speak it? 17:16:43 tusho, yes, I know you'll kill me 17:16:52 and no, a one parter spec 17:16:53 Rule 1. Your spec does not need to be in Word format. 17:16:55 -!- olsner has joined. 17:16:55 but a two parter process 17:17:03 Rule 2. Your spec will probably do fine as regular text. Use Notepad. 17:17:25 Rule 3. A Word spec on mediafire. Aah. 17:17:25 I realise, but it has nice formatting and OO seems to explode when saving as rtf or otherwise 17:18:02 so, the process to get you to read it is? 17:18:07 copy it into text? 17:18:20 Hiato: yes 17:18:25 then put it on a pastebin like pastebin.ca 17:18:29 ;) 17:18:37 9 pages, but ok 17:18:38 :P 17:28:00 http://rafb.net/p/LB8PDV38.txt 17:28:05 alright, there we are :) 17:29:22 ps, this applies to both ais523 and tusho, seeing as most likely ais523 agreed to tusho's hatred of all things ms 17:29:33 no he doesn't 17:29:38 he develops c-intercal on windows 17:29:46 well 17:29:47 not always 17:29:48 but he dose 17:29:49 *does 17:29:51 he's said 17:30:40 Hiato: I don't necessarily hate all things MS, but Word format is really hard for many people to read seeing as it requires either a massive converter (OpenOffice.org, which isn't perfect) or a program that costs lots of monet 17:30:43 s/monet/money/ 17:31:00 I do dislike many things MS, because I think they're going about things the wrong way 17:31:15 but I do put in effort to get C-INTERCAL working on Windows 17:32:57 ps: I tend to agree, it wasn't meant as an insult :) 17:33:17 blarg, curse the unemotional text based forms of communication 17:34:25 Hiato: he wasn't retorting it as an insult 17:34:27 just offering information 17:34:31 double misunderstanding! 17:36:15 aah, then all is well 17:37:20 some formatting mistakes corrected for the nitpicky http://rafb.net/p/6cEjVr14.txt 17:38:40 last formatting mistake corrected, saved as plain text as opposed to C++ :P http://rafb.net/p/6xzcyI52.txt 17:40:06 (and yeah, it's as of yet unnamed) 17:42:30 -!- tusho_ has joined. 17:50:04 My connection is rusty. 17:50:06 Am I still here? 17:50:23 ais523: 17:50:29 yes 17:50:31 you are 17:50:53 tusho_: pong 17:51:15 yay 17:54:57 any ideas on the spec? 17:57:47 Not sure, but it looks good. 17:57:55 I'm doing something else right now, it looked vaguely interesting though 17:58:22 -!- tusho has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:58:35 bye tusho... 17:58:43 yay, no fatal flaws then :) 17:58:48 strange quit message too 17:58:58 ais523: BWAHAHAHAHAA 17:58:59 it's like a netsplit with only one server 17:59:01 I AM A GHOST 17:59:02 I AM HAUNTING YOU 17:59:05 LOOK BEHIND YOU 17:59:09 no, actually tusho was the ghost 17:59:12 you're the real user 17:59:17 I'M THE GHOST'S GHOST, AIS523 17:59:29 STOP SHOUTING 17:59:50 (presumably the bold on that won't have come through due to the channel mode) 18:02:15 ais523: NO 18:07:23 ais523: have you seen that link to the message which originated the IMG tag? 18:07:33 no 18:07:40 with a discussion right next to it with Guido van Rossum of python fame arguing with someone about xmosaic 18:07:47 ais523: http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0182.html 18:07:52 proposed new tag: IMG 18:07:59 http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0184.html guido 18:08:06 ais523: and finally: 18:08:09 http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0189.html 18:08:15 {I seem to remember something about a patch to httpd to allow mapping 18:08:15 onto a command, rather than a file, but I can't remember where. Am I 18:08:15 hallucinating, or can someone let me know where this thing is?} 18:08:16 :-) 18:12:45 I'm almost certain that I was using the web in 1995, with pictures, reading about Y2K 18:12:53 Unless my memory is bad? 18:13:00 Sgeo: that discussion's from 1993, despite the subdomain 18:13:34 And from 1993 we got to 1995 a widely used web with IMG standardised? 18:13:34 * tusho_ got his first computer at 3 and a net connection at 4. 18:13:46 Sgeo: There wasn't much formal process then. 18:13:51 The guy just added it to the xmosaic code. 18:13:59 And all 5 users added to their pages. 18:14:19 But the net _did_ explode soon after mosaic came along. 18:14:20 So. 18:14:23 Er 18:14:24 Web 18:15:28 * Sgeo can't remember when he first used the web 18:15:38 Other than a possibly false memory from 1995 18:15:46 I adapted this name in 2001, I think 18:16:38 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:54:57 ais523: do you think my ambig-quotes might be a good basis for an esolang? 18:55:17 a lang requiring tons of nesting but with ambig-quotes as the only means 18:55:45 maybe 18:58:41 ambig-quotes? 19:01:04 Sgeo: parens with just one symbol 19:01:10 'a 'b'' -> (a (b)) 19:01:24 '''a' b' ''c' ''d''' e' 19:01:25 -> 19:01:35 (((a) b) ((c) ((d))) e) 19:01:43 whitespace sensitive of course 19:20:33 So then it isn't with one symbol D: 19:22:30 Slereah2: Yes it is. 19:22:37 It just happens to be in tune with the innate nature of whitespace. 19:31:25 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:37:36 -!- olsner has quit. 19:38:50 -!- olsner has joined. 19:45:41 Huh. 19:45:49 I have some code in a weird languge on my HD 19:45:54 oh no? 19:45:56 It's like a blend of C, Limbo, and Pascal. 19:46:02 Pretty sure I wrote it. :p 19:46:10 Pretty sure it's my language, too. 19:46:16 Don't think I ever wrote an implementation, either :| 19:46:25 was it like a fuck man i haf situation? 19:46:52 no, I don't think so 19:47:02 *i'm 19:47:29 it has some odd control structures 19:47:31 foreach is called 'iter' 19:47:50 seems I translated some SDL code into it too 19:48:10 maybe it's Ruby. 19:48:26 lament: how is ruby a blend of c, limbo and pascal? 19:48:29 which calls foreach 'iter'? 19:57:55 hmm 19:57:55 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Qq 19:57:56 tbh i don't think the name is all that important 19:57:59 that is pretty weird 19:58:17 qq, double queue, like a deque 19:58:20 Munges the quoted program argument with itself. 19:58:23 wtf does that mean 19:58:29 ais523? I think you helped me with that lang 19:58:40 i have no idea why i shared that random association. 19:58:47 but whaeva, i do what i want 19:58:47 # (arity 1+) The first argument must be an integer. An integer is returned, which when called as a command, is like calling the first argument with the arguments of the rest of the arguments to this command plus the arguments passed to the returned command. (...Of course!) 19:58:49 o_______o 19:58:50 tusho_: did I? I've never seen it before 19:59:00 ais523: -shrug- it's weird, either way 20:00:28 ais523: pretty sure you DID help 20:13:26 Ah, Xah Lee. 20:13:30 How your rants inspire laughter. 20:16:46 Good lord. 20:16:51 If[#1==0, 1, #1 #0[#1-1]]& 20:16:57 That's a factorial in Mathematica. 20:17:51 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:18:35 quite readable 20:18:55 i understood that instantly without knowing the language 20:19:16 except i have no idea what the & is. 20:19:24 oklopol: it denotes a magical function 20:19:28 that gets #N as its Nth argument 20:19:29 but the magic bit? 20:19:32 #0 is the function itself. 20:19:34 aiee! 20:19:40 well yeah, obviously 20:19:46 oklopol: that's pretty insane, though 20:19:55 well c does that too 20:19:55 tusho_: you can do the same in shellscript 20:20:07 ais523: but these can be anonymous 20:20:10 oklopol: only in arguments to main, giving you the name of the executable 20:20:15 yeah not the asme 20:20:18 yeah, but sae concept. 20:20:19 this works for unnamed function 20:20:19 tusho_: in a shellscript $0 is the name of the script itself 20:20:19 *same 20:20:19 s 20:20:27 ais523: doesn't work for unnamed functions 20:20:38 #0& <-- a function that returns itself 20:20:47 tusho_: it works whatever the name of the script, and unnamed functions have names really, pretty much, you just don't see them 20:20:54 anyway, quite a pretty syntax, perhaps i should learn mathematica 20:21:22 okokokokokokokoko 20:21:31 oklopol: it isn't a pretty syntax once you start using it, it badly needs to be reverse-polish or something because you get huge messes with lots of nested square brackets where you can't match a function to its arguments easily 20:21:33 hah, more xah lee rant 20:21:36 excellent 20:21:49 ais523: i see 20:21:52 "I consider arc a asshole creation, and Scheme with its people and r6rs motherfucking assholes." 20:22:01 I consider them to be motherfucking assholes, verily, indeed. 20:22:07 Would you like a cup of tea old bean? 20:24:34 Hmm. 20:24:40 UNIX pipes are kind of concatenative, right? 20:24:44 a | b | c -> a b c 20:24:50 I suppose so 20:25:05 in a concatenative lang all commands are functions from input to output mapping stacks to stacks 20:25:12 no 20:25:12 but UNIX pipes send streams rather than stacks 20:25:20 that's where the analogy fails 20:25:24 concatenative just requires forall programs a, b. ab == a.b 20:25:37 err 20:25:38 b.a 20:25:43 in this case, a|b=b.a 20:25:49 a b c cat | xyz grep | sort | uniqe *g* 20:25:52 well, I suppose so, but that's just a property, the paradigm is IMO more restrictive 20:25:52 *uniq 20:26:02 ais523: that's pretty much the definition of a concat lang 20:26:31 tusho_: well, I spent a while yesterday arguing that Forth wasn't "properly concatenative" because it didn't have a concatenative-lang-like flow structure 20:26:46 Forth's pretty much imperative in terms of program flow, despite being stack-based 20:26:47 concatenative?(L) = forall programs(L) => P, Q. concatenate(P,Q) = compose(P,Q). 20:27:01 and what you're saying is that forth isn't idiomatically concatenative 20:27:02 which is true 20:27:05 yes 20:27:08 but it's still a concatenative paradigm language 20:27:20 er, concatenative?(L) = forall programs(L) => P, Q. concatenate(P,Q) = compose(Q,P). 20:27:20 I treat "concatenative" as meaning more the idiom than the mathematical property 20:27:21 always mix that up 20:27:28 ais523: that's not how most people refer to it as 20:27:31 ah, ok 20:27:40 maybe I need a new word for my way of thinking 20:28:36 ais523: idiomaticity 20:28:47 mm, that's a nice word. 20:28:50 idiomaticity 20:31:20 ais523: thoughts on concatenative languages- 20:31:25 -!- Hiato has joined. 20:31:29 it's a good idea, because it's reduces nesting a lot 20:31:34 which is a problem with reading programs 20:31:36 the problem is ... 20:31:44 having the arguments in 'reverse' just isn't that nice 20:31:47 you end up reading it backwards 20:31:51 tusho_: especially Mathematica, that drove me to concat langs more or less after being forced to use it for a month or so 20:31:57 eyes shoot forward to the word, then shoot back 20:31:59 it's not natural 20:32:06 there must be a way to blend them satisfactorally 20:33:04 ais523: thoughts on how to blend them? 20:33:40 I find concatenative pretty natural, first you calculate the args and then you do something with them 20:33:55 ais523: yes, but 20:33:57 I tend to try to read langs in evaluation order (or for langs like Haskell, pseudo-evaluation order) 20:34:01 "Hello, " "world!" ++ print 20:34:11 Your eyes skip ahead to ++, and you read the two arguments. 20:34:13 Then you read 'print'. 20:34:22 So it's not like an applicative language, but it still has skipping forwards with your eyes 20:34:22 for concatenative langs that's left to right continuously, what could be simpler? 20:34:28 which is unnatural and distracting 20:34:36 I am uncertain of the solution 20:34:53 I'm not the only person like this, by the way, someone on proggit mentioned how they read functional langs right to left for this reason 20:35:22 i read stack-based shit left to right, usualy 20:35:23 *usually 20:35:37 i also read functional shit left to right, usually 20:35:46 oklopol: the point is that if you have a lot of string mangling, say 20:35:57 oklopol: well, I read Befunge in IP direction, which isn't always left to right 20:35:57 -!- RedDak has joined. 20:35:57 then your eyes will skip ahead to "what are we doing with these two piecesof data?" 20:36:11 ais523: well yeah, sure 20:36:14 tusho_: ah, you want to know how data's used before looking at how it's generated? 20:36:27 i can do it either way 20:36:32 I suppose for langs like Perl where a function's data type affects the evaluation of its arguments, that's necessary 20:36:35 ais523: when you have a lot of operations at once, yes 20:36:39 it's kind of an urge 20:36:41 but most lang the types of the argument affect the function 20:36:53 i'm not satisfied with seeing you build up data, then bam, oh, that's what we're doing with them 20:37:06 i'd like to hear "we're going to concatenate some stuff together" first 20:37:10 so I know wtf I'm reading 20:37:58 ais523: for example 20:38:01 tusho_: many Underload programs I see and/or write don't use the data immediately after calculating, they just let it sit on the stack for a while 20:38:01 if we go purely concatenative 20:38:05 then a function starts with a load of code 20:38:08 and then, only then 20:38:09 in fact how it's used may depend on calculations done later 20:38:11 I know what it's going to be caled 20:38:18 so only then will I get a rough, one-word idea of what it'll do 20:38:29 and it's only at the _very end_ when I even know we're defining a function! 20:39:59 hmm... XML has an interesting solution to this problem 20:40:04 because tags are labeled at both ends 20:40:22 -!- timotiis has joined. 20:40:30 ais523: impractical, though 20:40:36 not nice for coding, certainly 20:40:38 even for reading 20:40:46 "Define function! Stuff! Stop define function!" 20:40:54 Besides, with that, you have a fixed argument list. 20:40:54 tusho_: actually VHDL does that 20:40:57 == it's not really concatenative. 20:41:08 tusho_: yes, I know XML isn't concatenative 20:41:12 nor is VHDL for that matter 20:41:14 i want a tc language that has absolutely no modularity, so that you have to have it all in your head before you know what it does 20:41:18 but then arguably VHDL isn't nice for coding 20:41:22 oklopol: so do I! 20:41:33 I've been trying to think about a lang like that, but have been failing more or less 20:41:54 that would be so awesome, assuming it's done well, of course simple to do something like programs being some sort of a hash value that's expanded into the program... 20:42:17 one thing I thought of was hash-based in a different way 20:42:18 so that there's no non trivial way to make a wimpmode for it. 20:42:25 well how? 20:42:35 it took the md5 of your program, interpreted that as commands that were appended onto the end of the program, and repeated 20:42:36 something like a weird syntax definition mess might lead into that 20:42:44 heh 20:42:50 so it basically repeatedly md5'd a self-modifying program 20:42:58 and you had to modify it to give the correct hash results 20:43:12 but i don't want anything like that, i want something with graphs, so that when you actually do have the program in your head, you should have an idea what it does. 20:43:17 actually, using a simpler and reverse-engineerable hash (i.e. a bad one) might be able to create a practicallish program 20:43:21 graphs just because... well, i love em 20:46:39 ais523: is underload tc if ^ drops the code after it? 20:46:58 you mean like Muriel, ^ never returns? 20:47:03 not sure, I'll have to think about that 20:47:03 ya. 20:47:21 you can't encode sk as simply at least 20:47:57 'tis 20:48:03 you just need to put the rest of the program into the thing you're doing 20:48:06 probably via * 20:48:26 tusho_: but things like stack tricks normally use ^ to do 20:48:36 true 20:48:38 for instance I think you need ^ to swap elements 1 and 3 of the stack 20:49:23 that doesn't necessarily mean you couldn't just have whatever's after ^ now be before it, does it? 20:49:28 hmm 20:49:46 oklopol: abc^def is equivalent to abc(def)*^ 20:49:48 although you need some condition on the *... which prolly needs ^ 20:49:53 yeah 20:49:57 but unfortunately there's no obvious way to get programs into that form 20:50:20 what if you just do, err that? :P 20:50:31 i think it fails if you start passing ^'s around 20:51:13 s/\^(.+)/($1)*^/g 20:51:55 tusho_: that mangles (:^):^ badly, into (:():^)*^ 20:52:01 which isn't even in the required form 20:52:15 hm true 20:52:18 nor particularly meaningful, in fact it's an error 20:52:26 well, consider it to end at the ) :) 20:52:28 you know. 20:52:29 local to each () 20:52:38 doubt it still works that simply 20:52:47 quite simple to try raelly. 20:52:49 *really 20:52:58 well in that case (:^):^ fails if ^ obliterates the stack too and succeeds otherwise 20:53:05 but it probably fails on more complicated programs 20:53:45 (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^ => (()(*))(~:(:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^)*^):^ 20:54:26 oklopol: what did you change there? 20:54:28 ais523, hi 20:54:32 hi AnMaster 20:54:32 ais523, any issues? 20:54:36 oklopol: oh, I see now 20:54:38 i swoppered all ^'s. 20:54:53 but it doesn't actually keep it like that, when you evaluate it. 20:54:55 AnMaster: I haven't tried yet, been busy with ICFP, and then tired after that 20:54:59 oklopol: you forgot the first ^ 20:55:01 it's just when there's no nesting that this works 20:55:05 did i now` 20:55:06 no, sorry, the second 20:55:13 *? 20:55:17 ah. 20:55:22 i didn't see that there 20:55:25 lessee 20:56:13 ais523, care to make the rather simple fixes to make current cfunge work with c-intercal, I mentioned what was needed in a mail iirc 20:56:54 I'm still a bit tired and haven't been coding other than ICFP recently 20:56:59 but they'll definitely be done before release 20:57:16 valgrind --leak-check=full bin/ick -b pit/beer.i 20:57:19 interesting 20:57:26 well, it seems to work 20:57:30 AnMaster: what's interesting about that? 20:57:43 not sure if it works as it used to, but it seems to calculate fibs anyway 20:57:46 ais523, some leaks that look rather localized 20:57:48 * AnMaster checks 20:57:53 oklopol: the program will still work after that transformation, but not if you redefine ^ I don't think 20:58:01 also every time ^ is executed there, it is the last char 20:58:16 oklopol: ah, that is interesting 20:58:34 but, wonder if that is true for any tc subset of programs 20:58:53 blergh 20:58:57 -!- olsner has quit. 20:59:03 because it clearly isn't for all programs, as you can pass ^ around any way you like 20:59:27 -!- pikhq has left (?). 21:00:07 oklopol: what about when you have (^) 21:00:07 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 21:00:09 and end up calling that 21:00:11 -!- ihope has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.15/2008062306]"). 21:00:53 hwa? 21:02:09 i never said programs actually stay equal even if you do that transformation and drop the "call stack" 21:02:17 just that fibs seem to work 21:03:13 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 21:03:17 ais523, btw your interfunge is rather slow 21:03:29 ais523, but faster than zfunge and some other ones :D 21:03:42 AnMaster: interfunge isn't mine, it's J^4's 21:03:47 ah 21:03:58 ais523, do you understand how it works? 21:04:50 AnMaster: only vaguely, I haven't looked at it in detail but I patched a mistake in its go-away command 21:05:08 heh 21:06:56 an optimized cfunge really executes too fast for stuff like the game of life in b93 21:07:32 $ pit/interfunge < ~/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/mycology.b98 21:07:32 ICL241I VARIABLES MAY NOT BE STORED IN WEST HYPERSPACE 21:07:32 ON THE WAY TO 108 21:07:32 CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT 21:07:34 um 21:07:43 AnMaster: it's not befunge-98... 21:07:55 shouldn't it ignore everything outside the first 25x80 then... 21:07:56 come on, even you could have guessed that 21:08:01 I'm quite sure it should 21:08:09 so? 21:08:10 AnMaster: the spec doesn't say that 21:08:11 do you know it didn't? 21:08:13 it still crashed 21:08:15 ais523, hrrm 21:08:17 it just says programs are 25 by 80 21:08:25 ais523, also what does "WEST HYPERSPACE" mean? 21:08:36 interfunge is one of the few Befunge-93 interps I know that enforces this rule rather than ignoring the extra elements 21:08:40 AnMaster: it means array-out-of-bounds 21:08:40 -!- lilja has joined. 21:08:46 ais523, ah 21:09:18 normally the messages are related to the error pretty strongly, so they're easy to remember once you've seen them once 21:10:49 ais523: huh just realised what a nested/flat(concatenative) mix is 21:10:52 imperative :-) 21:10:58 x = ...; y = ...; x+y 21:11:02 no more nesting 21:12:00 ais523, I get same error when making the program 25x80 21:13:06 AnMaster: zomgz!!! Mycology fails on b93 interps! 21:13:07 So amazin 21:13:08 well, I've run it succesfully in the past 21:13:15 tusho_: it's meant to succeed, it has a b93 section 21:13:24 is the b93 section in 25x80? 21:13:27 yes 21:13:38 ah, ok 21:13:39 brb 21:13:49 tusho_, so stop being such a stupid git ;P 21:13:52 AnMaster: also for technical reasons the program has to end with a blank line in interfunge because INTERCAL has no EOF-detection 21:14:03 after the 25 original lines 21:14:07 ais523, I see, it didn't end in blank line 21:14:15 and use UNIX newlines 21:14:19 even with blank line same error 21:14:21 but you should get a different error if it doesn't end in a blank line 21:15:37 ais523, though this may not work for other reasons, it should still fit within 25x80 according to emacs http://rafb.net/p/2woPve50.html 21:15:54 ais523, and it cause west of hyperspace error 21:15:57 AnMaster: I just tested on my end and it worked 21:16:01 let me compare my version to yours 21:16:10 ais523, I used -bofF 21:16:18 to ick 21:16:18 could affect it? 21:16:31 err 21:16:32 O 21:16:33 not oi 21:16:36 not o* 21:16:39 AnMaster: shouldn't 21:16:44 let me run your program at my end 21:16:55 ais523, indeed doesn't affect it 21:17:14 ais523, what program? the pi one isn't mine, but it can be found in examples directory in cfunge 21:17:18 pi2.bf 21:17:32 AnMaster: mycology clipped to 25x80 21:18:03 I get a west-hyperspace error with your program 21:18:23 ais523, hm? my program == ? 21:18:31 == pi2.bf 21:18:31 pi2.bf? 21:18:33 AnMaster: look at the program 21:18:36 well check it's dimensions 21:18:38 look at line 2 specifically 21:18:50 reading backwards, >0399*p 21:18:54 ah 21:18:56 it's trying to p in (81,2) 21:18:59 s/2/3/ 21:19:04 ais523, well that you should error check for 21:19:07 which is out of bounds in Befunge-93 21:19:10 presumably not in Befunge-97 21:19:13 and I didn't write interfunge 21:19:19 hrrm 21:19:33 besides, interfunge just lets INTERCAL do the error checking and report an appropriate error message 21:19:58 $ wc -c << EOF 21:19:58 > 0#@>. 1#@v>#@,55+"skrow , :DOOG",,,,,,,,,,,,,,1#v:$v>"pud t'nseod : DAB",,,,,,,v 21:19:58 > EOF 21:19:58 79 21:20:06 so that line should be short enough 21:20:34 $ wc -l /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/my93.bf 21:20:34 24 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/my93.bf 21:20:37 $ pit/interfunge < /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/my93.bf 21:20:37 ICL241I VARIABLES MAY NOT BE STORED IN WEST HYPERSPACE 21:20:42 ais523, I'll pastebin 21:20:56 http://rafb.net/p/pynyck85.html 21:21:04 it even contains the blank line you wanted 21:21:38 $ ls -l mycology-stripped.bf 21:21:38 -rw-r--r-- 1 ais523 ais523 1864 2008-07-15 21:15 mycology-stripped.bf 21:21:44 is your version the same size? 21:22:16 -rw-r--r-- 1 arvid arvid 1968 15 jul 22.21 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/my93.bf 21:22:26 I wonder why it's bigger 21:22:32 ais523, CRLF 21:22:36 do you have crlf? 21:22:39 mycology use it 21:22:41 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lolwhut?"). 21:22:41 ah, that would be the problem 21:22:54 ais523, well in b93 you are allowed to not support it 21:22:58 but in b98 you have to 21:23:04 I recommend you support it 21:23:14 AnMaster: again, it's not my befunge-93 interp, ok? 21:23:18 complain to J^4 about it not me 21:23:22 $ du -b ~/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/my93.bf 21:23:22 1944 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/my93.bf 21:23:25 after change to LF 21:23:32 it works 21:23:36 however there is an issue 21:23:41 _ 21:23:41 I 21:23:41 II 21:23:48 with a lot of blank lines 21:23:54 that is not correct behaviour 21:24:01 for a befunge interpreter 21:24:16 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 21:24:19 AnMaster: it's using INTERCAL numeric output 21:24:22 ais523, it makes newlines where it shouldn't 21:24:29 back 21:24:34 I don't care about using roman numerals 21:24:40 AnMaster: INTERCAL always outputs numbers with newlines so that it can put the overbars on 21:24:45 but the newlines after numerals are just plain wrong 21:24:54 so it fails mycology in other words 21:24:55 e.g. 10000 in Roman numerals is X with an underscore above it 21:24:58 which is two lines tall 21:25:10 ais523, maybe, but it is still wrong in befunge93. period. 21:25:16 I don't think it's meant to be conforming in that respect 21:25:26 besides befunge93 says 'decimal' in the docs so it doesn't allow Roman numerals 21:25:39 ais523, also it fails in another point: 21:25:41 BAD: SGML spaces in Funge-93 21:25:54 err 21:25:54 wait 21:25:57 my fault 21:26:01 GOOD: Funge-93 spaces 21:26:02 AnMaster: it's written in frucking intercal 21:26:06 do you want it to be perfect?! 21:26:08 ais523, my fault 21:26:12 tusho_, so stop being such a stupid git ;P 21:26:18 also it was J^4's first INTERCAL program, cut them some slack 21:26:22 i don't think that was warranted, AnMaster 21:26:27 tusho_, maybe not 21:26:36 tusho_, I'm afraid I forgot the ~ 21:26:42 still not very nice 21:26:42 ais523, heh ok 21:26:51 though I guess curse levels are hard to learn in a foreign language :) 21:27:55 ja fy fan, det är det 21:27:58 * AnMaster runs 21:28:56 hrrm 21:29:03 should I implement TERM tonight? 21:29:12 which fingerprint's that? 21:29:17 terminal stuff 21:29:21 ais523, it would use ncurses 21:29:27 AnMaster: if you can do that then you can do trds! 21:29:36 tusho_, not really, this is easier 21:29:54 tusho_: trds is amazingly difficult to implement because of all the metadata you have to track 21:30:00 it's worse than call/cc 21:30:09 yes I have read ccbi sources for it 21:30:13 horrible 21:30:25 and well, not just feral, but positively wild 21:32:01 arguably it's worse than IFFI in terms of feralness 21:32:53 ais523, yes as IFFI doesn't have the issue of concurrency at the same time 21:32:58 while TRDS does 21:34:20 in fact I won't need ncurses, I will just need termcap 21:34:43 NCRS will be worse 21:42:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:54:51 -!- anjo has joined. 21:55:03 saluton 21:56:36 anjo: hi 21:56:41 you knew? 21:56:42 *new 21:57:12 hi anjo 21:57:14 and oerjan 21:57:55 hi 21:58:12 ais523: do you know xpath? 21:58:12 Deewiant, if you want TERM to work on linux see: man curs_terminfo 21:58:21 'evening 21:58:24 tusho_, do you know buzzwords? ;P 21:58:33 AnMaster: xpath isn't a buzzword.. 21:58:35 tusho_: no 21:58:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XPath 21:58:46 tusho_, well it was turned into one for a bit 21:59:01 same way as java isn't a buzzword, or .NET isn't 21:59:07 AnMaster: that's just the "OMG XML TECHNOLOGIES" buzzword categorisation system 21:59:13 tusho_, indeed 21:59:18 * AnMaster prefers S-Expressions 21:59:44 AnMaster: You say that but somehow I think you are just blindly repeating what you've heard. 21:59:51 tusho_: what advantages does that have over CSS? 21:59:51 XML has many use-cases, and they're not s-expressions'. 21:59:59 ais523: it can do more complex selectors 22:00:01 easier 22:00:02 tusho_, well I do prefer S-Expressions 22:00:06 I coded with them 22:00:11 supertux use it for data format 22:00:18 and since I worked a lot on that project... 22:00:21 AnMaster: XML and its assorted technologies are far more suitable in numerous cases. 22:00:22 And vise-versa. 22:00:24 XML got a lot of overhead 22:00:40 i prefer sandwiches over dog poo, even though dog poo has much more uses. 22:00:43 HTML works well, because it is mostly text with some markup in 22:00:45 I like using JSON for some of the things that people misuse XML for, but it has leigitimate uses too 22:00:47 basically 22:00:57 while xml for data storage gets a LOT of overhead 22:01:02 oklopol: really? Can you substantiate the second part of that statement? 22:01:31 AnMaster: look, XML is usable in a wide range of cases, and most "XML sucks, use s-expressions" people are totally wrong 22:01:40 in this case, I am manipulating a markup document. 22:01:46 tusho_, then it makes sense 22:01:47 ais523: you can make pretty much anything out of it, just have to dry it up 22:02:01 sandwiches, well, you can eat them. 22:02:10 AnMaster: eXtensible MARKUP language 22:02:16 you can also eat dog poo, which might be the xml equivalent of coding in xml 22:02:16 oklopol: have you never made sandwich sculptures before? 22:02:17 tusho_, however for some stuff XML overhead is just a quite huge 22:02:24 tusho_, yes indeed, problem is people misuse it 22:02:27 ais523: well no, but i doubt that'd work all that well 22:02:37 "xml equivalent of coding in xml" 22:02:38 AnMaster: that's a ridiculous argument 22:02:38 admittedly, I haven't, but it would seem like a reasonable pastime 22:02:39 because as you said 22:02:45 "X is bad because when you misuse it, it has huge overhead" 22:02:46 * oklopol sucks 22:02:48 "OMG XML TECHNOLOGIES" buzzword 22:02:56 tusho_, it does have overhead for a lot of stuff 22:03:02 that it is commonly used for 22:03:03 AnMaster: all of which are misuses. 22:03:10 yes 22:03:21 ais523: now i'm wondering if you have seen/made many dog poo sculptures... 22:03:27 tusho_: one issue is that XML has huge overhead even when used properly, e.g. look at XHTML vs. that ruby-based framework you used for the notary report 22:03:32 oerjan: no, I haven't 22:03:39 ais523++ 22:03:44 ais523: XHTML is crap 22:03:47 we can all accept that 22:03:55 it's a misuse of XML 22:04:06 and S-Expressions wouldn't be good for HTML 22:04:09 really wouldn't 22:04:12 because HTML should be lenient and basically nothing should result in a "BROKEN PAGE" 22:04:25 xml, however, requires a total abort on invalid documents (which is useful when it's used for the things it should be) 22:04:31 ergo, xhtml = broken for the web and always will be 22:04:48 why should HTML be lenient? 22:05:05 because tusho is lazy I guess 22:05:14 laziness has nothing to do with it 22:05:18 AnMaster: that's the stupidest thing you've said all day, ok. 22:05:22 tusho_, should an ADA compiler be lenient? 22:05:26 ~ 22:05:28 lament: you don't *really* want to be bombarded with links to many-paged articles about it, do you? 22:05:55 tusho_, also it was sarcasm... 22:06:23 AnMaster: also Haskell is lazy, is that an insult? 22:06:27 tusho_: no, because all those articles are dumb 22:06:33 ais523, hah! 22:06:41 lament: either you're reading the wrong ones or you're just wrong 22:06:42 :) 22:06:43 * AnMaster curses ncurses 22:07:03 * oerjan ncurses curses 22:07:04 tusho_: if all web browsers suddenly started rejecting all malformed HTML, it would not be that big of a deal 22:07:15 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA 22:07:23 lament: go and hack up a patch to your browser to do that. 22:07:26 go browse the web. 22:07:33 lament, I think you are wrong, a lot of pages doesn't validate 22:07:35 then come back to me and remark on how stupid that idea was 22:07:37 sadly 22:07:49 well, if enough people did that, a lot more pages would start validating 22:07:55 ais523, indeed! 22:08:01 just like when Firefox became popular a lot more sites stopped using IE-only markup 22:08:10 yes 22:08:14 ais523: actually, everyone would suddenly stop using firefox 22:08:18 because google won't work on it 22:09:10 AnMaster: ... you do realize I already tried to use those routines 22:09:27 Deewiant, well I'm using them with some limited success atm 22:09:48 AnMaster: i never said that many pages validate. 22:10:00 tusho_: I said "all web browsers", not "my browser" 22:10:08 tusho_: actually, I just looked at the source for Google, it looks like HTML 2 or something, maybe it is 22:10:16 Wikipedia validates 22:10:23 lament: People would ring up microsoft and yell at them that they broke the internet. 22:10:24 Deewiant, what was the problem for you? 22:10:27 Then microsoft would reverse it. 22:10:34 Then people would stop using FF because it still broke the internet. 22:10:35 tusho_: okay. 22:10:40 AnMaster: I can't remember 22:10:56 ais523: it doesn't have a doctype - right off the bat, it can't validate 22:10:58 I probably told you at the time, though :-P 22:11:04 tusho_: i agree that backwards compatibility is important, although in this case all it would take is microsoft saying "no, we won't revert it" to turn it into a non-issue. 22:11:20 tusho_: yes, also the content of the page doesn't correspond to any modern doctype, that's why I guessed html 2 22:11:22 AnMaster: the code I was using is still in term.d, just commented out there 22:11:26 backwards compatibility sucks ass 22:11:27 tusho_: but when it's the _only_ reason, then at least you can try to improve the situation in the future, and hope that eventually all the old pages will just die of old page. 22:11:28 lament: That would be called "Microsoft's stock drops because they broke the internet for the majority of users." 22:11:34 tusho_: and XHTML is an attempt to do that. 22:11:41 Followed by "Microsoft reverses decision to reject invalid pages." 22:11:50 (I am intentionally misusing 'internet' here.) 22:11:51 humanity should be erased every 10 years, with only the most pure inventions and top scientists to repopulate 22:11:53 tusho_: actually IE8 rejects invalid pages by default 22:11:59 err 22:12:00 ais523: invalid XHTML pages 22:12:03 because it's mandatory 22:12:04 perhaps a bigger interval 22:12:09 but anyway, i'm sure you agree 22:12:18 tusho_: so what's the problem, then? 22:12:20 but a lot of pages identifying as XHTML actually are 22:12:21 yes, and tries to parse pages standardsly even if they use markup that worked on IE7 22:12:27 because you have to know what XHTML is 22:12:29 which means you know what web standards are; etc 22:12:34 tusho_: in fact almost all of them, because the ones that don't don't work 22:12:42 ais523: no 22:12:44 that is not the reason 22:12:49 that is the reason 22:12:58 all modern browsers reject bad XHTML for obvious reasons 22:13:11 because the spec absolutely, completely requires them to 22:13:20 yes, so people trying to test an XHTML website will find it doesn't work in anything if it's broken 22:13:23 and because the only people who tag their pages as XHTML in the doctype already have checked their pages 22:13:39 i'd vouch that a hell of a lot of web page authors don't know what the w3c is 22:13:50 tusho_: well, if they tried without checking their page it wouldn't work 22:14:03 if HTML had acted the same way all along, pretty much the entire internet would be valid HTML 22:14:13 ais523: how about you draft a patch up for this and send it off to mozilla.org and watch them all laugh at you...? 22:14:18 and yes 22:14:23 but it'd also be a heck of a lot smaller 22:14:24 tusho_: it can't be changed /now/ for HTML, is what I'm saying 22:14:29 massively smallr 22:14:34 because the barrier to entry is immediately huge 22:14:40 Someone once sent me a link to a log on IM, and told me to read it in IE, because it was broken in Fx 22:14:41 there's such a thing as a "completely wrong" page, it won't show 22:14:45 you need to check it with a special thing 22:14:52 and it gives you messages telling you you're wrong 22:14:53 tusho_: nah, I don't think so, most people use tools like FrontPage or Dreamweaver nowadays and they could easily be fixed to produce valid HTML, I hope 22:14:56 and you have to fix them 22:14:59 until it stops yelling at you 22:15:13 ais523: ever seen a badge on a web page saying "Coded in NOTEPAD: the only true way" or whatever? 22:15:14 Something with encoding. Also, it was done in MS Word 22:15:23 There's a fair selection of people who think they're hardcore for handcoding invalid html 22:15:28 tusho_: no, actually I haven't seen that for any website bit vi 22:15:37 s/website bit/editor but/ 22:15:54 does vi automatically put advertising onto the bottom of websites it edits, or something? 22:15:54 ais523: you venture on the sane part of the internet, then :) 22:15:57 and no 22:16:03 that seems completely against vi spirit 22:16:10 vi just love waving their e-peen around 22:16:12 *vi users 22:16:15 I see it with vi quite a bit though 22:16:28 yes, because most of them think they're awesome for using a particular editor 22:16:32 it's quite common on emacs pages too 22:16:39 but emacs users seem to be less religious 22:16:40 generally 22:17:37 hrrrrrr 22:17:56 lilja: rrrrrrrrrrrrrh 22:18:00 tusho_: actually I thought emacs users tended to be even more religious than vi users, except me 22:18:16 ais523: depends 22:18:25 they're usually more religious but only if you talk to them about it 22:18:28 emacs was, of course, invented specifically as a program for Richard Stallman to be able to do everything he liked from one definitely-Stallman-free program 22:18:31 vi users are less religious but they're religious _all the time_ 22:18:47 and other people have benefitted from that by coincidence 22:18:51 sort of like free-loading 22:19:30 ais523: it amuses me that he would think "what I need is an OS" 22:19:33 i thought he already thought that... 22:19:58 tusho_: not exactly, he was building an OS, what he needed was an applicatoin 22:19:59 -!- Corun has joined. 22:20:04 not more than one though, he wasn't greedy 22:20:15 ais523: but the application is an OS, effectively 22:20:19 it's a platform for running applications 22:20:23 well, it has to be if it's only one application 22:20:28 that's what emacs is, it just happens to be structured like an editor 22:20:29 and yet it does everything 22:20:39 it's an OS that has an editor in its very core due to bad design 22:20:39 :) 22:20:54 tusho_: well, maybe a shell not an OS 22:20:57 it isn't really a kernel 22:21:02 by any stretch of the imagination 22:21:13 an os doesn't have to have a kernel 22:21:17 and it doesn't have its own filesystem, just integrates with other things 22:21:20 Ubuntu is an OS and it's a different one from Gentoo 22:21:24 ls has an Emacs option, I think 22:21:27 they share the kernel, filesystems, ... 22:21:39 and yes 22:21:40 --dired 22:21:43 well, Ubuntu's the whole OS, whereas Emacs is just the shell 22:22:15 ais523: a shell can run any program 22:22:20 Ubuntu comes bundled with Linux, Emacs doesn't 22:22:21 emacs can only run programs that are written for it 22:22:27 it's an OS> 22:22:40 tusho_: it can run other programs too, M-x shell-command and all that 22:23:01 ais523: that's totally cheating though :) 22:23:16 tusho_: no it isn't, it forks and execs just like any other shell does 22:23:29 that's totally not the point though :| 22:23:38 Emacs also happens to be a programming language interp, though, that's why it can run lots of programs written for it 22:23:53 if you write a program in JavaScript does that make a web browser an OS? 22:24:31 no... 22:24:36 but let's just drop this, it's going nowhere 22:24:37 :p 22:28:32 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:30:00 -!- anjo has left (?). 22:33:28 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 22:38:10 ok I got it to work partly Deewiant 22:38:17 by taking code from an ncurses example 22:38:23 not sure why clear works now 22:38:38 Confound you, quaterions! 22:38:55 cherez, um what has they got to do with this? 22:38:56 Confound you, cherez! 22:39:03 AnMaster: Why does he have to talk about your topic? 22:39:06 I'm not sure. 22:39:07 Why can't he talk about what he wants? 22:39:10 ah 22:39:25 well I just got confounded by him 22:39:50 I was just confounding them, and thought someone might come up with a quaternion based esolang. 22:39:51 * oerjan throws an octonion at cherez 22:39:54 so he was successful I guess 22:40:06 oerjan, that exists? 22:40:13 yes 22:40:24 Those are the non-associative ones, right? 22:40:27 non-associative multiplication 22:44:41 ais523: how is overload doing 22:44:49 not very much at present 22:44:51 aw 22:44:55 I'm interested in it 22:44:57 I think I may have to restart writing the interp a third time 22:45:05 ais523: what do you think about my longest-valid-command-name idea, btw? 22:45:05 because it's the ideal lang to implement Shove in, I think 22:45:13 from where? 22:45:16 abcdefg - if you have 'ab', 'cdef', and 'g' as commands, 22:45:16 that's 22:45:19 ab cdef g 22:45:27 tusho_: CLC-INTERCAL's parser does that 22:45:28 if you also have 'cde' and want it differently, ad a space 22:45:32 same 22:45:38 abcde fg 22:45:42 also Cyclexa does that 22:45:46 with @ rather than space 22:45:48 ais523: still, it's good for a golfing language 22:45:51 but it has tiebreak rules 22:46:00 it'd sure help with golfscript-competitors 22:46:10 so say if ab and bc are both commands, there'll be a defined parsing of abc 22:46:16 which depends on the priorities of ab and bc 22:46:29 and Cyclexa's deliberately designed to be golfable 22:46:41 abc would always be ab c 22:46:45 if ab is defined 22:46:47 whereas Overload was a golfing lang all along 22:46:55 ais523: remember, ninjacode needs to be fast too 22:46:55 tusho_: Cyclexa parses based on which combination has the most meaning 22:47:07 really fast 22:47:10 Overload intentionally ignores performance, on the basis that computers get better all the time 22:47:17 and so do optimisation techniques 22:47:27 -!- lilja has quit ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'"). 22:47:35 ais523: it's kind of like saying that you should use a string rewriting language because computers are getting faster 22:47:44 besides, my language is meant to be able to exceed c speed 22:47:45 this isn't a "should", it's a "can" 22:47:47 if you get down and dirty 22:47:59 the one thing ninjacode is not designed for is readability 22:48:04 incidentally, I was thinking about the cfunge-speed argument you and AnMaster had 22:48:10 which is how it achieves this seemingly-impossible feat 22:48:14 ais523: different goals 22:48:18 and decided the reason why golfing befunge for speed was silly was because it had no competitors 22:48:18 ninjacode is for totally pwning anagolf 22:48:37 so maybe I'll try to write a really fast befunge-93 to asm compiler using a techinique someone suggested on the talk page 22:48:48 of using self-modifying asm to do self-modifying Befunge 22:48:55 ais523: OMG THAT'S NOT BEFUNGE98!!!!!!!!!!!1112163717823612873681723612783 22:49:04 93's easier 22:49:07 and decided the reason why golfing befunge for speed was silly was because it had no competitors <-- huh? 22:49:13 Of course, but that's the argument AnMaster will give you, ais523 22:49:16 :) 22:49:36 AnMaster: the reason trying to get cfunge as fast as possible seems a bit strange to tusho is simply because there's nothing to compare it to 22:49:39 would be interesting 22:49:51 if there were two lightning-fast befunge implementatinos it would be more interesting 22:49:54 ais523, well I can compare against a previous revision 22:49:59 AnMaster: the reason trying to get cfunge as fast as possible seems a bit strange to tusho is simply because there's nothing to compare it to 22:50:01 and also, because, well 22:50:05 it's kind of a total waste of time. 22:50:12 nothing is a waste of time 22:50:14 tusho_: no it isn't, if you were 22:50:16 tusho_, well esoteric languages all are then 22:50:26 AnMaster: no they're not 22:50:28 tusho_: think about it this way: what esolang would you say is the most practically useful? 22:50:42 ais523: not the point - interestingness 22:50:45 I know it isn't a usual criterion for esolangs, but think about it 22:50:52 it doesn't make it any more interesting. it doesn't make it any more usable because nothing needs that speed. it's also blanketed (everything is optimized even if the optimization won't help much). 22:50:53 etc. 22:50:56 I'd probably say Befunge, which is why Befunge is a good choice for speeding up 22:51:04 thus, it is a waste of time 22:53:19 god i hate it when people tell others what they should or should not do in their own time. 22:53:33 oklopol: i'm not 22:53:50 i'm telling him it's a complete waste of time 22:53:53 * oerjan wonders which esolang wastes the _most_ time ... when running 22:54:06 well i guess you're just expressing your opinion a bit annoyingly 22:54:10 and that's why I argue with him when someone defends it 22:54:17 err, when I argue with the defender 22:54:23 note to self - don't modify one part of a sentence and leave the other 22:54:23 -!- Corun has joined. 22:54:38 tusho_: perhaps, perhaps, i'm very, very tired. 22:55:05 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1""). 22:57:52 Deewiant, if you are there, in TERM fingerprint, should negative counts for "lines to go upwards" work? 22:58:14 AnMaster: TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS 22:58:27 tusho_, you misread, I said TERM 22:58:31 TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS 22:59:33 someone reboot tusho please 22:59:52 oerjan: TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS 22:59:57 TRDS? TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS! TRDS. 23:07:57 what is this trds everyone keeps talking about? 23:08:11 oklopol: TRDS 23:19:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:22:44 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:31:15 oklopol, http://web.archive.org/web/20020816190021/http://homer.span.ch/~spaw1088/funge.html#trds 23:34:20 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:34:30 Deewiant, I added a TERM using the functions from term.h, you may want to take a look at mine 23:34:59 Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/fU6mi089.html 23:35:20 wow 23:35:31 that's like... calculated call/cc 23:35:31 -!- Corun has joined. 23:36:44 oklopol: it even rewinds stdout 23:36:46 and stdin 23:36:51 oklopol, yes painful 23:37:01 oklopol, and NOT something I will ever implement 23:37:05 ccbi does implement it however 23:40:11 Does it rewind stdout if you've piped it into something? 23:40:38 GregorR: Not sur. 23:40:39 e. 23:40:41 Maybe. 23:40:51 Think it detects tty-ness, GregorR 23:41:17 how can you rewind stdout? 23:41:54 to me that makes no sense 23:42:08 there is no unputc, just ungetc 23:45:42 AnMaster: Just erase the chars on the screen. 23:46:10 that may not work on some terminals 23:46:31 a putp(clr_screen); in konsole at least will still leave scrollback 23:48:09 AnMaster: It just uses ncurses or whatever 23:49:17 k 23:49:28 tusho_, well that is what putp(clr_screen); does 23:49:30 ncurses 23:49:35 sure, whatever 23:49:35 :) 23:57:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).