2008-07-01: 00:03:14 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:24:25 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:29:58 happy 1 july 00:33:47 -!- tusho has left (?). 00:33:50 -!- tusho has joined. 00:33:50 -!- tusho has left (?). 00:34:01 -!- tusho has joined. 00:34:12 -!- tusho has left (?). 00:34:16 -!- tusho has joined. 01:13:16 its not july first yet here! 01:13:58 yes it is 01:14:02 now goodbye :) 01:14:07 -!- tusho has quit. 01:14:08 im in florida 01:59:49 -!- Judofyr has quit. 03:48:10 http://www.amazon.com/Million-Random-Digits-Normal-Deviates/dp/0833030477/ 03:48:16 A bargain! 05:21:20 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 06:27:08 lol 06:59:20 -!- cc_toide has joined. 07:17:11 -!- cctoide has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:22:08 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:35:15 augur, happy 1 July too 07:35:17 no idea why 07:35:25 lolk 07:35:35 but it is 1 July in Sweden 07:35:36 i leave or europe at 11 07:35:37 in oh 07:35:38 8 hours 07:35:46 hm why? 07:37:23 fun and profit 07:43:46 AnMaster: see, good thing that I don't update the Mycology comparison, what with all these bugs still in your interpreter ;-) 07:44:04 Deewiant, none of them affected current mycology 07:44:30 Deewiant, anyway last was a pre-release so heh 07:44:33 ah, but I'd do some extra bug hunting just to spite you, and then add anything I find to Mycology ;-) 07:44:58 before next release I plan to create a test program for TURT on my own 07:45:02 will do that later today 07:45:07 going swimming shortly 07:47:37 Deewiant, well I will be happy to accept any bug reports 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:40 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:10:11 -!- oklofok has joined. 08:14:31 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:38:01 -!- lament has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:01 -!- AAA_AAA has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:02 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:03 -!- atsampson has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:04 -!- mtve has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:05 -!- cherez has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:05 -!- GregorR has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:05 -!- AnMaster has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:05 -!- Ilari has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:05 -!- cc_toide has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:06 -!- sebbu has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:07 -!- cmeme has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:08 -!- Polar has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:08 -!- dbc has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:08 -!- SimonRC has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:09 -!- fizzie has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:09 -!- shachaf has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:09 -!- lifthras1ir has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:10 -!- Deewiant has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:11 -!- jamesstanley has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:11 -!- Dewi has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:12 -!- puzzlet has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:39:08 -!- cc_toide has joined. 08:39:08 -!- AAA_AAA has joined. 08:39:08 -!- lament has joined. 08:39:08 -!- cmeme has joined. 08:39:08 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 08:39:08 -!- cherez has joined. 08:39:08 -!- dbc has joined. 08:39:08 -!- GregorR has joined. 08:39:08 -!- sebbu has joined. 08:39:08 -!- Dewi has joined. 08:39:08 -!- Polar has joined. 08:39:08 -!- AnMaster has joined. 08:39:08 -!- mtve has joined. 08:39:08 -!- shachaf has joined. 08:39:08 -!- jamesstanley has joined. 08:39:08 -!- atsampson has joined. 08:39:08 -!- Deewiant has joined. 08:39:08 -!- puzzlet has joined. 08:39:08 -!- fizzie has joined. 08:39:08 -!- lifthras1ir has joined. 08:39:08 -!- Ilari has joined. 08:39:08 -!- SimonRC has joined. 08:57:14 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 09:01:57 ESOTERIA 09:52:07 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:22:52 -!- Judofyr has joined. 10:50:03 Deewiant, there is some kind of error in ccbi TURT as well as cfunge TURT 10:50:05 different errors 10:50:24 but putting down pen and going forward by 10 pixels shouldn't result in a viewbox like this: 10:50:31 viewBox="-163839.0999 -0.0010 327679.0998 0.0020" 10:50:34 which it does for ccbi 10:50:39 "TRUT"4( 1P 5F D 0P I @ 10:50:41 was the program 11:00:35 Deewiant, also I get a closed path not an open one it seems 11:00:58 closed and filled 11:32:01 Deewiant, further: the instruction to clear the paper with some color doesn't work correctly 11:39:57 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:40:35 GLORIA ESOTERIA 12:02:42 Slereah_, ? 12:07:09 -!- cc_toide has changed nick to cctoide. 12:13:29 Hello people 12:27:06 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:27:10 hrrm 12:27:21 well I found quite a few bugs in TURT, both CCBI's and mine 12:27:25 mine is more or less fixed now 12:27:35 still the margins in the generated file are quite weird 12:27:39 but working on that now 12:28:01 what to learn from this: fixed point sucks 12:28:17 and hi ais523 12:28:22 hi AnMaster 12:30:13 Deewiant, why do you use fixed point in TURT btw? 12:30:42 (p.d.p.x < 0) ? "-" : "", getInt(p.d.p.x), getDec(p.d.p.x) <-- seems quite messy to me 12:30:50 just to print a fixed point number 12:31:18 * AnMaster added code to convert to a double 12:44:27 floating-point suffers from rounding errors when large and small numbers are combined 12:44:59 I've had that problem before; I was trying to cause something to change every second, but the time was in epoch-seconds and stored in a floating-point number 12:45:07 it worked fine when I changed it to fixed-point 12:54:36 wtf 12:54:44 I think Deewiant confused turn right and turn left 12:54:51 I can't explain it in any other way 12:54:54 in TURT? 12:54:58 yes 12:55:04 I'm pretty sure Deewiant wouldn't confuse [ and ] 12:55:10 well it is in TURT 12:55:14 not normal funge 12:55:21 void turnLeft() { turt.heading += toRad(ip.stack.pop); turt.normalize(); } 12:55:21 void turnRight() { turt.heading -= toRad(ip.stack.pop); turt.normalize(); } 12:55:33 is heading clockwise or anticlockwise? 12:55:38 ais523, trying to figure out that 12:56:03 ais523, problem it does it totally wrong anyway 12:57:06 0 is east 12:57:12 is all the specs say 12:57:21 when people set 0=east, then they tend to use anticlockwise angles 12:57:30 that's mathematician angle measurement 12:57:41 0=east, pi/2=north, pi=west, 3*pi/2=south 12:57:41 ais523, so 90 should be straight up? 12:57:47 AnMaster: radians 12:57:48 ais523, it is in degrees 12:57:51 according to specs 12:57:54 well, there's a toRad in that code 12:58:01 so Deewiant's storing it in radians internally 12:58:06 but 90 would be straight up in degrees, yes 12:58:10 wtf 12:58:16 ais523, the code treats that as downwards 12:58:37 I suppose you have to look at the original code for TURT 12:58:41 anyway 0 in his code is equal to going diagonally down 12:58:47 that's wrong 12:58:48 ais523, there is nothing but the specs 12:58:56 ais523, yes 12:58:58 http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/library/TURT.html 12:59:04 in that case, how did J^4 do the turt-quine? 12:59:11 "H 'Set Heading' (angle in degrees, relative to 0deg, east)" 12:59:28 ais523, well he implemented TURT in *his* way in *his own* interpreter 12:59:39 ah 12:59:46 problem is that no implementations agree on this simple test: 12:59:54 "TRUT"4( 29*N 0H 1P 55*F 9a*H 5F 9a*L 5F 0P 5B 0a*R aB 1P I @ 13:00:10 9a*L should turn 90 degrees to the left 13:00:14 * ais523 wonders what a non-esoprogrammer would think of your definition of a "simple test" 13:00:45 ais523, if 90 is straight down then it should draw as the ascii art: 13:00:46 ---. 13:00:48 | 13:00:53 ._ 13:01:06 and a dot a bit above the vertical line 13:01:29 except no interpreter agrees about this 13:02:21 ais523, the last direction change there, is 90 degrees to the left right? 13:02:41 I don't know TURT 13:02:47 what does H do? 13:02:49 and B? 13:02:54 H 'Set Heading' (angle in degrees, relative to 0deg, east) 13:02:57 B 'Back' (distance in pixels) 13:03:01 F 'Forward' (distance in pixels) 13:03:08 I guessed F 13:03:09 L 'Turn Left' (angle in degrees) 13:03:09 R 'Turn Right' (angle in degrees) 13:03:22 P 'Pen Position' (0 = up, 1 = down) 13:03:36 N? 13:03:40 N 'Clear Paper with Colour' (24-bit RGB) 13:03:43 * I 'Print current Drawing' (if possible) 13:04:03 anyway N is currently broken in both cfunge and ccbi 13:04:15 it clears but doesn't set bg color at all 13:04:54 0a*R is a NOP, surely? 13:05:03 should it say 9a*R? 13:05:07 AnMaster: I think SVG is the reason for fixed point, I might misremember though 13:05:08 yes it should 13:05:11 in any case, accuracy 13:05:19 but it breaks before that 13:05:39 well I think ccbi is quite broken on "TRUT"4( 29*N 0H 1P 55*F 9a*H 5F 9a*L 5F 0P 5B 9a*R aB 1P I @ 13:05:53 I think 90's more likely to be straight up 13:06:01 cfunge is slightly broken but not as broken 13:06:01 but then, Befunge uses mathematical notation with up and down exchanges 13:06:07 s/s$/d$/ 13:06:11 so maybe TURT does the same? 13:06:20 Deewiant, should 90 degrees in TURT be up or down? 13:06:31 I'm happy to use either but I need to know 13:08:27 well now cfunge does the right if 90 is down 13:08:35 still my margins are all messed up 13:10:35 Deewiant, it is clear you haven't tested your TURT ;P 13:10:57 as the generated paths are filled and closed and so on 13:11:01 we need a Turt version of Acid2 13:11:20 ais523, haha well mine test some stuff 13:11:36 as for your statement about it working differently on every interpreter 13:11:48 there's a bit of INTERCAL-72 that the original spec didn't define 13:12:09 and it turned out that J-INTERCAL, C-INTERCAL, and CLC-INTERCAL (the three INTERCAL interps I could get hold of) all implement it differently 13:15:38 hm 13:19:58 so it's sort of a handprint for INTERCAL interps 13:20:16 I've publically stated that I'd prefer it if all future INTERCAL interps do something different yet again upon encountering it 13:20:39 heh? 13:20:41 what is this thing 13:20:56 basically when you STASH a variable, IGNORE it, then RETRIEVE that variable 13:21:02 it's the interaction of read-only-ness and scoping 13:24:05 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklopol. 13:25:30 how can you figure out how to get a large number in befunge? 13:25:35 I need 0xFF0000 13:25:44 how do you write that out in Befunge... 13:25:53 generally speaking, I factorise and multiply 13:25:58 but there may be better ways 13:26:12 $ factor $((0xFF0000 )) 13:26:12 16711680: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 5 17 13:26:12 aha 13:26:26 well 17 is too large so... 13:26:33 add that up 13:26:34 also 2s can be bunched into 8s 13:26:37 yes 13:27:00 2f+8*8*8*8*8*6*5* 13:29:04 well well 13:29:24 Deewiant, your colors are broken 13:29:37 0xff0000 gets output as "#0000ff" 13:31:51 blergh 13:31:56 this is even more broken 13:32:18 I support that blergh 13:32:19 sorry 13:41:57 ok that is partly fixed now 13:42:19 need to close a path correctly 13:51:57 I found an old marble of mine :D 13:53:20 you lost them? 13:54:34 I didn't even know I still had one. 13:55:38 that's because you don't keep them in your head, remember 13:57:07 OR DO I 13:57:51 "Remember Adolf Hitler, the most famous Black Magick wizard in modern history?" 13:57:56 I'm not sure I do D: 14:00:20 -!- Corun has joined. 14:00:44 Deewiant, ais523: well cfunge is more conforming to TURT specs than ccbi now :P 14:00:51 still not perfect 14:00:54 heh 14:01:59 1) margins totally messed up, 2) it sometimes misses to add path segments when outputting (but not as much as ccbi does) 3) adding dots after lines are even more random operation it seems 14:02:05 is an even* 14:07:25 well my test program works in cfunge now 14:07:45 not saying that other programs will work 14:08:44 ais523, you may want to pull 14:08:56 did you update only TURT? 14:09:03 yes 14:09:18 well TODO and CMakeList.txt too 14:09:22 as I added a man page 14:16:43 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:18:00 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:32:35 -!- atsampson has quit ("back in a minute"). 14:36:03 -!- atsampson has joined. 14:51:10 ais523, there? 14:51:15 yes 14:51:19 I got ccbi to generate an invalid svg file 14:51:23 at least according to inkscape 14:51:29 and konqueror 14:51:39 L0.0020,0.0020 14:51:39 "/> 14:51:40 oh yes 14:51:44 that isn't valid xml 14:51:52 no, the quotes aren't matched properly 14:51:53 cfunge does this right 14:51:56 ais523, indeed 14:52:22 Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/tZQ61687.html <-- ccbi generates invalid code on that 14:52:31 cfunge can handle it 14:53:24 actually take http://rafb.net/p/o2X0l033.html, the ASCII art had an error 14:53:38 it would be nice to get the v> trick working in a vertical column rather than drifting to the left 14:53:43 I think it might be possible with flying IPs 14:54:01 instead of v, set the IP going diagonally down and to the right 14:54:02 ais523, well yes it would work in a jump table 14:54:09 but that needs more code 14:54:22 something like 11x instead of x 14:54:28 err "instead of v" 14:54:47 yep, 11x> at the end of each line should work 14:54:57 to make Befunge work more-or-less like 1D programming languages 14:55:03 haha 14:55:59 well flying ip is slower I think because it needs complex checks for wrapping 14:56:00 :P 14:56:17 AnMaster: most people writing Befunge programs don't optimise for speed 14:56:19 actually shouldn't matter as long as it doesn't actually wrap while flying 14:56:20 :P 14:56:31 but hehe 14:56:43 ais523, well removing white spaces would help with that 14:59:23 All in favor of me writing a Brainfuck interpreter that runs on raw hardware? 14:59:37 pikhq: you mean, creating hardware that runs BF natively? 14:59:41 I think that's been done before 14:59:43 but in favour anyway 14:59:49 ais523: No, just a kernel that runs Brainfuck. 15:00:06 oh, in that case you'd just write a BF interp that was also an OS 15:00:09 that isn't all that difficult 15:00:13 pikhq, make it portable! 15:00:13 ;P 15:00:18 I/O would probably be the hardest part 15:00:19 ais523: You're right. 15:00:29 Especially since I already have half of a kernel written. ;) 15:04:11 Deewiant, ais523: http://rafb.net/p/wPQrY673.html 15:04:14 new version 15:04:22 ais523, you will love that one ;P 15:04:41 heh 15:04:50 comments at the end too 15:05:18 the 11x> looks so much neater than the v> IMO 15:05:43 well since it stays in the same column it is useful indeed 15:05:56 and for a test suite I don't have time write compact code 15:05:57 I can do that too 15:05:59 a sec 15:06:17 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/t5usdB97.html 15:06:53 $ ./cfunge examples/count.b98 15:06:53 Enter a number: 34 15:06:53 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 15:09:18 http://rafb.net/p/rCRPk325.html 15:09:20 ais523, Deewiant ^ 15:10:18 stroke-width:0.00005px 15:10:24 that seems a bit small 15:10:34 I would have expected 1px 15:11:39 does TURT have a fill, by the way? 15:11:44 and does the TURT quine work in cfunge yet? 15:17:01 http://rafb.net/p/Haj5AB54.html <-- more extended 15:17:17 ais523, as for stroke, it is correct because everything is too small scale 15:17:19 it is a bug 15:17:25 I plan to rescale everything btw 15:17:38 ais523, as for turt quine I think it maybe be !Befunge specific 15:17:54 iirc !Befunge's TURT isn't completely correct 15:17:59 I don't think it uses any !Befunge-specific features except TURT 15:18:14 -!- Corun has joined. 15:18:15 ais523, it depends on differing implementation of TURT 15:18:19 yes 15:18:31 also debugging that quine is not something I plan to do 15:18:47 I make a test program, reason about it, then run it check if result is same 15:18:50 if it isn't it is a bug 15:19:00 or I reasoned wrongly 15:19:29 (that happened just now, what if you change pen color when it is down and then use T to teleport to another location, logically you got to lift the pen 15:20:03 anyway when Deewiant gets back I hope he can fix ccbi :) 15:20:12 * AnMaster ducks 15:20:55 ais523, also my turt is likely to still have bugs apart from very bad margins and stupid scale 15:21:18 well, most esocode has bugs 15:21:29 even something as simple as the original Malbolge interp had lots of vunerabilities 15:24:14 at least my margins doesn't cut off the image like ccbi does :P 15:28:40 ais523, btw you asked for function to execute on a fingerprint being unloaded? 15:28:46 that won't work 15:28:47 I don't plan to use it 15:28:50 I was just wondering 15:28:55 you can unload a fingerprint that isn't loaded 15:29:01 it is perfectly valid 15:29:24 consider A-Z as a set of stacks of function pointers 15:29:27 got that? 15:29:30 oh, does that rollback all the fingerprint commands it would define if it were loaded? 15:29:41 I think I get how fingerprints work 15:29:44 now load: push on the relevant stacks 15:29:47 the commands work the same way as variables in INTERCAL 15:29:58 a different stack for each command 15:30:01 but unload: pop *top item* if possible from the relevant stacks 15:30:18 so there is no way to know if it is the same fingerprint in fact that is unloaded 15:30:26 consider the NULL fingerprint for example 15:30:40 you can unload that a few time to clear anything loaded 15:31:01 so in effect "function on unload" is pointless 15:31:40 yes, I suppose so 15:31:50 unless you're using it as a 27th command rather than an unload hook 15:31:58 eh? 15:32:06 oh I see 15:32:13 how would that work? 15:32:17 Å? 15:32:31 well, the unload would do something, as would all the commands in the fingerprint 15:32:51 a fingerprint trying to unload itself in cfunge would cause havoc I bet 15:32:58 or rather, that depends 15:33:09 it couldn't even be sure it unloaded itself 15:33:52 the opcode stacks are quite simple: struct with size, top used item, pointer to memory block 15:34:56 -!- tusho has joined. 15:35:02 Dude fellows. 15:35:06 I wonder 15:35:07 hi ais523 15:35:08 hi tusho 15:35:09 ha 15:35:11 you won 15:35:11 I won that one any way you look at it 15:35:17 hi Slereah_ 15:35:22 ais523: i noticed you were in #canada when connecting 15:35:23 very amusing 15:35:24 Was Brainfuck developed independently of P''? 15:35:25 I was actually about to type hi to Slereah_ when you joined 15:35:30 Because if it is. 15:35:33 but I couldn't greet you until #esoteric was here, of course. 15:35:36 it was a bit offputting 15:35:41 Slereah_: i doubt it 15:35:48 he probably knew of it 15:35:49 With P'', BF and Spoon, it would have been invented three times D: 15:35:51 and thought it could be a could basis 15:35:58 So simple is the language. 15:36:06 and uh Slereah_ 15:36:08 spoon was based on BF 15:36:12 Was it? 15:36:16 yes 15:36:19 Slereah_, iirc BF was based on P'' 15:36:22 I seem to recall the guy saying that he did it independantly 15:36:36 Lemme check 15:36:53 "To be correct, I *re*discovered BrainF*** (known henceforth as simply 'Brain'). I thought wow! I thought oh! I thought damn - somebody's beaten me to it." 15:39:09 ais523, btw I wrote a few other tests for things that ccbi doesn't test. they are in tests/ in cfunge repo 15:39:33 some are cfunge specifc, like concurrent-issues.b98 iirc 15:39:57 (specifc as no other interpreter is likely to ever have the same issue) 15:55:35 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:55:49 wowee 15:55:53 zzo invented another language 15:55:59 he's a machine 15:56:59 ais523: lawl 15:57:07 a guy on the esolang wiki talked about a language on the Inflection page 15:57:07 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:57:13 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 15:57:15 without disclosing that it was his 15:57:17 and he linked to a wikipedia page 15:57:20 to add credibility I guess 15:57:22 it's been deleted 15:57:22 :p 15:57:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:57:30 well, you missed all of that 15:57:52 paste again? 15:57:54 oh, and hi tusho 15:58:03 lawl 15:58:04 tusho: a guy on the esolang wiki talked about a language on the Inflection page 15:58:08 tusho: without disclosing that it was his 15:58:08 [15:58] tusho: and he linked to a wikipedia page 15:58:08 [15:58] tusho: to add credibility I guess 15:58:08 [15:58] tusho: it's been deleted 15:58:08 [15:58] tusho: :p 15:58:26 zzo invented another language 15:58:29 what language? 15:58:36 AnMaster: see recent changes 15:58:36 varsig 15:58:37 i think 15:58:57 the deletion debate is gold 15:58:59 "The fact it exists makes it notable." 15:59:04 false 15:59:08 my right nostril's hairs are notable 15:59:08 :D 15:59:14 * tusho creates seventy articles about them posthaste 15:59:25 tusho: don't, that's probably speediable 15:59:33 ais523: duh, really?? i would never have guessed 15:59:34 under the "stop vandalising" criterion 15:59:36 which actually exists 15:59:37 I wish we were paid per pound of language. 15:59:44 Imagine what we could earn! 15:59:50 tusho, where on the esolang wiki? 15:59:59 http://esolangs.org/wiki/varsig 16:00:03 although I'm not tusho 16:00:11 yeah ignore him 16:00:14 he's an imposter 16:00:16 because he's not me 16:00:20 AnMaster: http://esolangs.org/wiki/varsig 16:00:22 ah 16:00:23 I am you. 16:00:24 there, I properly answered your question 16:00:27 Listen to me. 16:00:29 hahah 16:00:35 Slereah_: yes but you're the only one who's me 16:00:38 ais523 isn't me 16:00:46 if he was then we wouldn't argue so much 16:00:55 unless i have multiple personality disorder 16:01:01 I like the way varsig defines a convoluted way to do variables, but none of the examples use them, probably because they're not very easy to use 16:01:03 but that would be multi-threaded multiple personality disorder 16:01:10 which I don't think exists 16:01:17 seems like a rather crazy language 16:01:28 however what has this got to do with wikipedia I don't get 16:01:39 oh, and is it just me and tusho, or is ESME just random ramblings of nonsense? 16:01:47 ais523: yes 16:01:51 that's why I put it in the shame category 16:01:58 it's shameful 16:02:05 shame category? 16:02:05 Slereah_ suggested putting it in that category 16:02:06 so I did it 16:02:11 http://esolangs.org/wiki/ESME 16:02:12 ais523: oh, and also 16:02:18 he made a link like 16:02:20 [[Wikipedia:foo]] 16:02:21 or whatever 16:02:22 which is valid 16:02:23 then 16:02:24 "There is currently no text in this page, you can search for this page title in other pages or edit this page." 16:02:24 he changed it to 16:02:26 -!- Corun has joined. 16:02:29 [[WikiPedia:foo]] 16:02:33 i reverted, saying he was right the first time 16:02:38 he re-reverted, saying "I prefer it this way" 16:02:43 maybe it's http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esme 16:02:46 That's Like The People Who Type Like This 16:02:49 And If You Complain 16:02:50 I'm not sure, HTTP just stopped working for me 16:02:54 They Tell You To Stop Insulting Their Style 16:02:57 for no apparent reason 16:03:21 * ais523 resets eir Internet connection 16:03:24 ah yes that is it 16:03:26 -!- ais523 has quit ("resetting my Internet connection"). 16:03:43 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esme 16:03:45 i vandalised it a bit 16:03:48 since it'll probably be deleted soon 16:04:30 it lacks specs... 16:04:39 wow really 16:04:41 i didn't notice. 16:04:45 your eye is keen, AnMaster. 16:04:55 well wtf is it doing on the wiki without specs or link to specs? 16:05:07 AnMaster: Someone added it. 16:05:08 (WOW) 16:05:20 well seems to be way below quality standard 16:05:22 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Shameful :D 16:05:24 I think that he figured that, because it was a "joke language", it didn't need anything. 16:05:35 AnMaster: So is FURscript, but we keep it because it's funny. 16:05:36 "Boy I will be so random, and it will be amusing!" 16:05:37 Slereah_, even they need specs 16:05:52 "The structure is based off a mix of html, turbo pascal, and BASIC. " 16:05:54 heheh!? 16:05:55 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:06:00 AnMaster: furscript is totally serious 16:06:01 :| 16:06:04 read the talk page 16:06:15 a guy transferred it to esolang because someone put it on their wiki 16:06:22 but it was too bad to stay there. 16:06:27 oh and none of the lesser known programming languages have specs 16:06:29 they still have articles 16:06:33 ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Shameful 16:06:46 Well, the lesser known programming languages are somehow fun. 16:06:52 tusho: VALGOL and SARTRE both have specs 16:06:54 And they got sources, I think. 16:07:02 ais523: after the fact 16:07:07 tusho: yes 16:07:23 btw last time someone tried to create categories on Esolang they got blocked for it, by Graue 16:07:27 oh and none of the lesser known programming languages have specs 16:07:27 they still have articles 16:07:29 which ones? 16:07:33 I love the edit summary. 16:07:34 "(shame)" 16:07:39 so we codified it into policy "don't create categories without discussion" 16:07:42 either implementation, specs or link(s) to spec 16:07:46 are needed 16:07:48 ais523: i didn't create a category 16:07:51 just a warning, I won't block you for it 16:07:51 i never touched a category page 16:07:54 I just added category links 16:07:55 ais523 : Well, we discussed it here! 16:07:57 tusho: well, adding a redlinked category 16:07:59 so ha 16:08:03 And we all agree and all. 16:08:16 i'll revert "Esme is a shameful esoteric programming language created by User:Dagoth Ur, Mad God because he has no language creation talent." though 16:08:20 because shame should be untarnished 16:08:22 and authentic 16:08:35 -!- Slereah_ has set topic: Esme is a shameful esoteric programming language created by User:Dagoth Ur, Mad God because he has no language creation talent. | #esoteric - the international hub for esoteric language design, development and deployment | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 16:08:44 yes, it can stay there 16:10:45 tusho, IMO every language on the esoteric wiki should have specs, links reference implementation(s) or links to specs to be useful 16:10:58 AnMaster: uh what about unimplemented languages 16:10:59 even HQ8++ or whatever they are called got that 16:11:05 tusho, well then there are specs 16:11:08 under-construction ones, underspecified ones that are still interesting,... 16:11:10 or != and 16:11:15 hm true 16:11:19 but there is a limit for it 16:11:20 it's pointless to specify such rigorous standards for bloomin' esoteric languages 16:11:27 esme is way below that limit 16:11:34 AnMaster: yes, but it's rather amusing 16:11:41 it _should_ be deleted, but it's like a work of modern art 16:11:41 not really 16:11:45 hah 16:11:46 you can sit there and admire it 16:11:55 and try to take in the mental damage used to create it 16:11:56 well how does the example work? 16:11:58 but you can never envelop it all 16:12:03 AnMaster: that's the zen part of it 16:12:11 or what does the example do? 16:12:13 you don't know until you forget 16:12:19 Esme should stay there. 16:12:21 I think it's a language with a concept but no spec 16:12:27 And it should have the tag "NEVER FORGET" 16:12:33 basically the author things that the example should be what an Esme program should look like 16:12:38 ais523: not much of a concept 16:12:47 i think we should protect it so he can't flesh it out 16:12:51 Like a reminder for future generations. 16:12:51 well, it's an idea for an art-language 16:12:52 tusho, why? 16:12:54 :( 16:12:56 AnMaster: it would lose its appeal 16:12:58 and tusho, that's against the idea of a wiki 16:13:03 he should flesh it out IMO 16:13:21 AnMaster: well, maybe he'd make it less shameful 16:13:24 which would be a shame [ha] 16:13:31 good idea if he did 16:13:51 yeah but then Category:Shameful would only include furscript 16:13:56 :p 16:14:05 well furscript should be deleted 16:14:17 no it shouldn't 16:14:17 it isn't esoteric at all, it is just a bad failure 16:14:18 it actually has a spec 16:14:24 and it certainly is esoteric 16:14:28 just not in a good way 16:14:35 tusho, well less esoteric than the Perl entry 16:14:36 ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Dagoth_Ur%2C_Mad_God/monobook.js wtf? what does that do? 16:14:40 change 'special page' to 'special'? 16:14:43 AnMaster: hell no 16:14:45 perl is just concise 16:14:52 furscript is esoteric because it can't do anything useful 16:14:56 but it can do really weird things 16:15:01 tusho, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Perl 16:15:01 and it does them in a strange, awkward, and crazy way 16:15:05 i know 16:15:06 i've seen 16:15:13 it is very accurate 16:15:15 and funny 16:15:21 AnMaster: no it's not 16:15:28 the Interpretation is funny 16:15:34 but the program isn't funny 16:15:38 and the implication isn't true 16:15:42 tusho, well it is obscure 16:15:52 so is furscript 16:16:03 tusho: the interpretation is correct, you just don't understand the language it's written in 16:16:05 and obfuscated 16:16:14 it's a SARTRE-like language 16:16:15 ais523: *g* 16:16:20 and yes I know it counts lines in files and subtract files or something like that 16:16:23 AnMaster: not intentionally obfuscated 16:16:26 it looks pretty basic 16:16:30 tusho, that perl? 16:16:32 ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Esme look, he actually tried to explain it 16:16:34 zzo38 asked 16:16:58 hah 16:17:10 tusho: that explanation strikes me as being a joke, more or less, like the language 16:17:14 oh I think I see 16:17:16 it's clear to me he's describing a paradigm 16:17:22 rather than an actual specced-out language 16:17:23 it is *output* of the program 16:17:28 Is he? 16:17:35 so you can only type "esme" + some ! 16:17:36 ais523: the paradigm of 'lol, the name "esme" is funny and ESME!!esmeMEMEESMESMSME is funnier' 16:17:44 ahh I see 16:17:46 'esme esme' is the program 16:17:50 no wait 16:17:52 nope 16:17:59 it's on one line in the source 16:18:03 tusho, I *think* it may be like this: 16:18:05 emse 2 16:18:11 ESME!! 16:18:12 err 16:18:12 tusho: I didn't say it was a good paradigm 16:18:14 AnMaster: what does 'HE output' mean 16:18:15 esme* 16:18:19 Stop pondering, and let it remains in its category of SHAME 16:18:19 tusho, no clue 16:18:26 maybe THE output? 16:18:29 could be a typo 16:18:45 It's also the same "paradigm" as ook, cow or AAAAAAH 16:18:51 it's a SARTRE-like language <-- wtf is that? 16:19:08 AnMaster: SARTRE was one of the lesser-known langs, but Chris Pressey specced it 16:19:13 it's on catseye somewhere 16:19:17 ais523, hm 16:19:40 found it 16:19:47 http://catseye.tc/projects/sartre/doc/sartre.html 16:20:55 that's the first lang I've seen that mandates that comments must not be misspelled and allows compilers to spellcheck them 16:20:56 ais523: you know wikipedia, can you tell me why tony sidaway never stops changing his name 16:21:04 tusho: no, I can't 16:21:04 and why is it always something strange 16:21:11 I don't know 16:21:22 it's very confusing 16:21:27 ais523, haha 16:22:37 "A special command which, due to the resignation of the programmer, is permitted to perform a wide variety of tasks, among them, alter the direction of program flow, execute a random function, terminate the program, or positionally invert the bits in the data region." 16:23:00 that reminds me so much of the low-quality esolangs that some people turn out 16:23:06 have a command that can do more or less anything at random 16:23:52 has sartre ever been implemented? 16:24:27 I doubt it 16:24:41 normally there's an impl on catseye if it's been implemented and there's a spec 16:24:54 however, looking at that lang, it looks like it might potentially be TC 16:24:57 which disappoints me 16:25:08 I wanted a lang where every possible program was a NOP 16:25:19 that would be much more interesting IMO 16:25:33 there is some such program 16:25:56 oh, it wasn't Chris Pressey, apparently, even though it's on their website, it's John Colagioia 16:26:34 their? 16:26:42 singular they 16:26:48 I'm not sure of Chris Pressey's gender 16:26:57 ais523: i'm pretty sure he's a he. 16:26:57 the name doesn't give a clue eitehr 16:27:01 Chris is he isn't it? 16:27:03 tusho: well, it would seem likely 16:27:05 AnMaster: it's both 16:27:40 ais523: i mean, it's an unfortunate but true fact that the number of females doing esolangs is quite a bit less than males 16:27:45 and I'm sure he might refer to himself as male somewhere on his site 16:27:49 either way, it seems very likely 16:27:54 s/esolangs/programming/, probably, I suspect that's the reason 16:28:04 ais523: but esolangs even more, I'd say 16:28:13 but esolangs are an art form 16:28:15 or at least can be 16:28:24 most of the female programmers i've heard of generally program to get things done 16:28:29 instead of messing around with esolangs and similar 16:28:32 shrug 16:28:39 there's always nerds :p 16:28:42 ais523: Programming is an art form, IMO. 16:29:03 Of course, it's an art form filled with people who don't know a damned thing about artistry. 16:29:16 have you never seen a Perl koan? 16:29:23 s/koan/haiku/ 16:29:26 sorry, wrong art form 16:29:30 perl koan 16:29:31 wow 16:29:36 ais523: heh, pressey dislikes wolfram 16:29:36 '# pedlars of profundity (Penrose, Wolfram, Hofstadter...)' 16:29:44 (under Things I Could Do WIthout on his personal page) 16:29:53 I've seen quite a few gorgeous Perl hacks. . . 16:30:01 But not any haiku that I can think of. 16:30:25 http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Perl/Haiku/InPerl 16:30:26 Well, Penrose is okay. 16:30:33 His tensorial notation makes me smile 16:30:37 that seems to have been a challenge to write haiku that was also legal Perl 16:31:07 :) 16:31:26 ' no less can I say; 16:31:26 require strict, close attention 16:31:26 while you ... write haiku' 16:31:30 can you get that to run? 16:31:43 I suspect so 16:31:53 the first line unloads a library called "less", with three string arguments 16:31:59 yes 16:32:02 then require strict verifies that use strict is possible 16:32:04 which it is 16:32:05 require strict loads strict.pm? 16:32:07 ah, okay 16:32:07 so no problems there 16:32:10 close attention... 16:32:12 we need an attention file 16:32:15 but that should work 16:32:21 and it requires strict and closes attention 16:32:25 while you ... write haiku 16:32:30 My favorite one? 16:32:31 you and write haiku must evaluate to something rangable 16:32:32 wait, that's all one command 16:32:35 ais523: no 16:32:36 it repeatedly closes attention 16:32:38 'no less I can say;' 16:32:40 two commands 16:32:41 $my_args = shift;system("gcc $my_args");print "I prefer C\n"; 16:32:43 that's what the while is doing 16:33:02 "The Sartre scoping rules are somewhat complex in that it may only utilize data which has been accessed previously or any data which it makes up itself. Data which has not yet been accessed is unknown to the Sartre nihilist, however." 16:33:04 well 16:33:14 that means it is a NOP I think? 16:33:18 and you ... write is rangable, presumably, because you can range two strings 16:33:30 AnMaster: no, it can create variables and then access them 16:33:36 hrrm 16:33:45 ah, presumably write haiku has a return value? 16:33:49 that would be rangeable 16:35:14 presumably, programming language haiku only works properly in langs which allow lots of barewords 16:35:58 ais523: ruby poems are nice 16:36:07 does ruby have barewords too? 16:37:01 -!- timotiis has joined. 16:38:19 -!- augur has joined. 16:38:49 You know a package's build system is bad when you have to write a patch just to make the build system cross-compile. . . 16:38:56 Or use a different C compiler, for that matter. 16:39:07 ... Or use different *arguments* for said C compiler. . . 16:39:20 pikhq: I wonder if C-INTERCAL cross-compiles, I've never tried 16:39:27 ais523: Do you use autotools? 16:39:29 haha 16:39:35 it would probably need different arguments for config.sh 16:39:37 pikhq, autoconf but not automake iir 16:39:40 irc* 16:39:41 pikhq: autoconf but not the others 16:39:44 Ah. 16:39:49 That ought to suffice. 16:39:55 * tusho needs to get on his autotools-replacement thing sometime 16:40:10 Though using the rest of autotools would make it much easier. 16:40:10 pikhq, well you need some other stuff in config.sh too 16:40:11 tusho: what would you do differently from autotools? 16:40:19 ais523: Not be insane? :p 16:40:27 GET_CANNONICAL_TARGET or whatever it was 16:40:33 Just ./configure --target=some-other-target would work perfectly. 16:40:40 I don't find autotools that insane, it appears insane because it's trying to do something insane 16:40:50 pikhq, well you need that macro in configure.ac then 16:40:54 whatever it was 16:40:57 ais523: what it's doing isn't as insane as how insane it is, though 16:41:13 hmm... I have a cross-compiler to ARM here, maybe I can try seeing if C-INTERCAL works with that 16:41:15 AnMaster: Fine, so I assume that you have used Autotools *right*. 16:41:24 pikhq, a lot yes 16:41:30 Like, say, up to GNU's packaging standards. ;) 16:41:34 one problem is that it isn't in my path 16:41:35 pikhq, no 16:41:48 ... No? 16:41:52 pikhq, I used it but not "up to gnu's packaging standards" whatever they are 16:41:53 pikhq: well, C-INTERCAL had a configure script when I came to it but mostly ignored its output 16:42:06 I've redone the build system at least twice since then 16:43:51 ah wasn't it AC_CANONICAL_TARGET that was needed? 16:43:53 pikhq, no? 16:43:59 Dunno. 16:44:04 I'm not an Autotools expert. 16:44:09 (I should learn it this summer) 16:44:21 cmake is better 16:44:46 Probably. 16:44:47 I don't have AC_CANONICAL_TARGET in my config.ac for C-INTERCAL 16:44:52 But Autotools is fairly ubiquitous. 16:45:50 Though Cmake is probably going to become much more so, now that KDE uses it. 16:46:12 ais523, I may be wrong 16:46:40 AnMaster: well, I haven't tried at all 16:46:45 maybe I should persuade pikhq to try 16:46:56 e'd get a top-tier modern INTERCAL compiler too 16:46:59 hmm... I have a cross-compiler to ARM here, maybe I can try seeing if C-INTERCAL works with that <-- good idea 16:47:09 AnMaster: yes, but it was set up weirdly 16:47:15 oh? 16:47:27 Lemme learn Autotools, and then I'll go ahead and try Autotoolising C-INTERCAL. :p 16:47:32 I got it by building gcc from source in a subdir deep in my home dir 16:47:46 pikhq: that could be fun, given the way the build system currently works 16:47:50 it already uses autotools 16:47:55 AnMaster: no, only autoconf 16:48:02 I could probably change a sane build system to use automake 16:48:08 I have a lot of experience with it 16:48:28 ais523, however I'm not sure if c-intercal's build system qualify as sane 16:48:33 AnMaster: well, does it deal with having to compile your own compilers to compile the source into C, then compile the C into the finished version? 16:48:51 ais523, it can be done but not fun 16:49:07 you can add custom targets easily enough 16:49:20 also there's a point where one .oil file splits into lots of .c files 16:49:28 all of which have to be compiled and linked back into one executable 16:49:29 ais523, what sort of names? 16:49:44 AnMaster: they follow a pattern, oilout00.c, oilout01.c, oilout02.c and so on 16:49:45 in hex 16:49:51 ok 16:50:09 should be doable 16:50:39 oh, I imagine it's all doable 16:50:43 ais523, however I would begin with converting other directories 16:50:56 what do you mean by that? 16:51:17 ais523, you can use automake in one dir and just autoconf in another 16:51:31 so you don't need to convert all at once 16:51:43 well, all the source is in the same directory, /src 16:51:51 it compiles into things in /tmp 16:51:59 out of tree builds? 16:52:02 and the output goes in /bin and /lib 16:52:03 is that supported? 16:52:08 AnMaster: it doesn't do out of tree at present 16:52:13 ais523, ah 16:52:23 ais523, why the compile into tmp? 16:52:24 for much the same reason cfunge doesn't build if you lose the tree structure in its sources 16:52:26 is there any reason 16:52:33 AnMaster: because there are lots of temporary files that need to be created 16:52:39 all the .o files are kept out of src 16:52:43 ais523, cfunge builds out of tree however 16:52:45 also there are .c files to be generated, and .h files 16:52:48 or at least did recently 16:53:24 well, arguably C-INTERCAL always builds out of tree because the src directory is untouched 16:53:39 but it's always in the same out-of-tree place 16:53:44 well I mean: mkdir build; cd build; cmake ..; make 16:53:47 should work for cfunge 16:53:49 mixing the results of compilation up with the sources is ugly IMO 16:54:15 phone brb 16:55:21 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:57:25 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:02:56 back 17:03:15 ais523, well just do a true out of tree build IMO 17:03:47 well, you can simply duplicate the tree, that's easy enough, right? 17:04:01 hm? 17:04:05 cp -r 17:04:18 um I said out of tree build 17:04:23 * ais523 wonders if there's a way to do a recursive ln 17:04:29 AnMaster: I'm talking about how to do the same thing 17:04:33 you don't need to ln 17:04:45 make will overlay the build dir and the real dir 17:04:48 internally 17:04:51 well, yes 17:04:57 and you don't need to create any subdirs 17:05:04 just an empty dir and run like: 17:05:09 I'm trying to think of a simple way to do out-of-tree builds when the source wasn't set up for them 17:05:12 ../ick/configure 17:05:24 and I know how out-of-tree builds work normally 17:05:26 ais523, well imo it should support it :) 17:05:51 -!- augur has joined. 17:05:56 ais523, where is the makefile.in in subdirs!? 17:06:04 probably in sr 17:06:05 oh you only use one single top makefile? 17:06:06 s/sr/src/ 17:06:12 if it isn't in the top 17:06:16 yes, there's only one single makefile 17:06:20 what subdirs are you thinking of? 17:06:21 ah 17:06:25 well src 17:06:30 oh, there's a makefile in doc, but it's independent 17:06:33 * AnMaster is used to autotools + recursive make 17:06:44 not autotools + one top makefile 17:07:02 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 17:07:02 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:08:25 ais523, oh btw I can convert ick to use automake yes, however no idea about your @OBJEXT@ mess 17:08:36 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 17:08:37 doesn't automake handle that itself? I'm unsure 17:08:37 AnMaster: that's simple enough 17:08:52 object files end .o on Linux and .obj on DOS 17:09:00 likewise for @EXEEXT@ which puts on the .exe extensions if needed 17:09:05 right 17:09:09 it's a feature built into autoconf 17:09:10 what about .com then? 17:09:11 AnMaster: your TURT working yet? 17:09:30 AnMaster: gcc doesn't generate .com files 17:09:35 and C-INTERCAL doesn't use them 17:09:48 Deewiant, yes it does in trunk 17:09:56 Deewiant, better than yours at least :P 17:09:58 good 17:10:00 yep 17:10:09 like said, it was hardly tested at all :-) 17:10:13 Deewiant, mine doesn't handle bg colors yet but nor does your 17:10:29 Deewiant, see the link I gave earlier 17:10:38 I'll see everything later 17:10:44 can't be bothered today 17:11:08 I'll fix it on the weekend the latest 17:11:46 ais523, would this be correct for ick: 17:11:49 bin_PROGRAMS = ick convickt ial 17:11:49 noinst_PROGRAMS = oil 17:11:49 lib_LIBRARIES = libick.a libickmt.a libyuk.a libickec.a 17:11:59 yep, looks right 17:12:09 ais523, what is ial? 17:12:13 oh, no 17:12:17 ial's a dummy target 17:12:21 that handles the includes and libraries 17:12:24 it isn't an executable 17:12:28 apart from that it's right 17:12:29 I see 17:12:44 then apart from oil it should be pretty simple 17:13:16 ais523, does SOURCES contain files for ick or for all? 17:13:29 I need variables with source files for each target basically 17:13:38 AnMaster: for everything 17:13:43 some sources go in multiple targets 17:13:43 hm 17:13:49 ais523, right 17:13:53 look at the link lines for each library and executable 17:13:57 ah 17:13:58 that'll explain what goes where 17:14:08 temp/parser.o temp/lexer.o temp/feh2.o temp/dekludge.o temp/oilout-m.o temp/ick_lose.o temp/fiddle.o temp/perpet.o temp/uncommon.o 17:14:11 that is all for ick? 17:14:18 yes, looks like it 17:14:27 oh wait, there's another noinst_PROGRAM 17:14:31 that generates oilout-m.c 17:14:41 I think I called it bin2c 17:14:53 it just takes a binary file and converts it into a C file defining one variable 17:15:05 ah I see 17:15:29 what exactly is ial for? 17:15:33 I don't get iot 17:15:34 it* 17:15:48 AnMaster: it's a dummy target that causes all the includes and libraries to be copied into appropriate locations in the tree 17:15:55 I see 17:16:04 ick runs straight from the tree, checking ../lib and so on if it can't find things in the PREFIX 17:16:19 ais523, why the need to copy 17:16:31 basically, there are three forms of the distribution 17:16:37 before it's compiled, everything's in src 17:16:56 once it's compiled, it builds in /lib and /include and /bin 17:17:00 including copying things over if needed 17:17:03 and it can run from those 17:17:07 so that's a binary version in-tree 17:17:13 then make install copies the files from there into the PREFIX 17:17:25 basically it can run off a make with no make install 17:17:31 hrrm does the top oil.c include all the other parts or? 17:17:32 and there are cases in the code to check if that's happened 17:17:36 temp/oil.c: src/oil.y temp/config.h 17:17:38 you still got that 17:17:40 AnMaster: oil.c is output from oil.y 17:17:46 oh right 17:17:49 that is simple :) 17:18:31 yep, just a straightforward yacc parser that defines OIL, the translation, etc., is in the same source file 17:19:00 temp/parser.h temp/parser.c 17:19:05 how do you generate the header? 17:19:20 AnMaster: yacc does it automatically when compiling 17:19:24 it outputs both a .h and a .c 17:19:33 with silly filenames IIRC but I mv them into the correct place 17:19:43 aaargh 17:20:01 AnMaster: that isn't even my silliness 17:20:05 that's what yacc/bison do by default 17:20:13 yes but moving it is silly 17:20:15 and autoconf has checks to find out what filename it uses for its output 17:20:27 AnMaster: not if you have two files to build, both using yacc 17:20:34 moving it is not silly because it avoids name collisions 17:21:08 well automake will keep track of how the files depend on each other for you 17:21:12 no need to list headers 17:21:29 even when the headers depend on other headers? 17:21:34 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 17:21:38 and when the headers depend on config.h too? 17:21:45 yep 17:21:51 and which headers are included depends on config.h 17:21:53 it uses the compiler to extract the info 17:22:04 although admittedly that's system headers, not my headers 17:22:07 on first time the file is built 17:22:13 or after a re-configure 17:22:24 also, I think some of the headers include different files based on which file they're included into 17:22:26 so incremental builds work 17:22:55 ais523, this will happen on a C file by C file basis 17:22:59 ok 17:23:18 what can cause trouble is the oil splitting thing 17:23:40 I did that because not doing it was causing Debian trouble 17:23:47 the files were getting to large to reliably compile 17:23:55 s/to/too/ 17:24:02 that's not with /g so it only affects the first to 17:24:52 ais523, I'm not sure how to express that a unknown set of files is generated from one file 17:25:04 wildcards? 17:25:15 besides, Info does that too 17:25:17 not sure if they work at the time it is expanded 17:25:25 ais523, wtf is lextest? 17:25:38 AnMaster: it basically built the lexer with a main(), it's not used nowadays 17:25:43 it was used early on to test the lexer 17:25:48 INTERCAL is not trivial to lex... 17:26:05 temp/oilout-m.o? 17:26:07 what is that 17:26:22 it's the main file 17:26:28 that calls all the other oilout files 17:26:37 each other file contains a function 17:26:44 and oilout-m just calls all the functions in order 17:26:51 to effectively make one big function 17:26:55 hm 17:28:10 lib/syslibc.c:pit/explib/syslibc.c 17:28:11 -cp pit/explib/syslibc.c lib/syslibc.c 17:28:14 what is that good for? 17:28:32 AnMaster: basically, syslibc.c and some other files (like syslib.i) are used by the compiler 17:28:46 but are also example INTERCAL programs, or examples of the syscall thing, or whatever 17:28:51 basically, /src holds files for the compiler 17:29:00 /pit holds example programs 17:29:06 but why not just use it directly, why copy it around? 17:29:08 but some of those programs, like the system library, are needed for compilation 17:29:21 AnMaster: because eventually it has to be installed into /usr/share 17:29:42 and because the /bin /lib /include form a working binary distribution 17:30:04 basically, it's source distribution -make-> binary distribution -make install-> binary distribution in the correct place 17:30:13 the binary distribution runs from /bin /lib and /include 17:30:14 ah, you could just copy it directly, would be easier even with automake 17:30:19 which means all the files have to be there 17:30:33 and not requiring a make install is very useful for people just trying out INTERCAL 17:30:38 saves having to use prefixes and all that 17:30:44 besides, they used not to work 17:40:44 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 17:41:00 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:41:03 -!- tusho_ has joined. 17:41:31 stupid fucking router 17:47:53 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:51:45 ais523, I can figure out how to express a fixed set of files for oil 17:52:00 but not a variable set, wildcard doesn't work before the file is generated 17:52:06 we got a bootstrap issue in fact 17:52:07 AnMaster: well, the number of files used will increase over time as more idioms are added 17:52:19 exactly 17:52:32 ais523, apart from that I almost finished converting it 17:53:56 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:54:12 ais523, I think this would work apart from install and from the oil thing: http://rafb.net/p/z5P3TG52.html 17:54:19 maybe a few more variables but almost only that 17:55:09 ais523, much shorter as you can see 17:55:26 *.y -> *.c is handled automatically 17:55:28 that doesn't handle the install of things like coopt.sh and syslib.i 17:55:31 same for *.l 17:55:34 ais523, indeed 17:55:40 I said apart from install and oil 17:55:40 does it handle *.y -> *.h too? 17:55:47 ais523, well it should 17:56:09 what about all the command-line args needed 17:56:20 there are quite a few -Ds involved 17:56:23 -!- tusho has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:56:42 ais523, aren't they defined CFLAGS? 17:56:44 or such? 17:57:24 AnMaster: I use CFLAGS as well 17:57:24 -!- tusho_ has changed nick to tusho. 17:57:37 ah that would end up as: 17:57:37 AM_CFLAGS = -O2 -W -Wall -DICKINCLUDEDIR=\"$(incdir)\" -DICKDATADIR=\"$(datadir)\" -DICKBINDIR=\"$(bindir)\" -DICKLIBDIR=\"$(libdir)\" -DYYDEBUG -DICK_HAVE_STDINT_H=@HAVE_STDINT_H@ -I./src -I./temp 17:57:46 or CPPFLAGS for defines 17:57:56 as CPPFLAGS = for precompiler and CFLAGS for compiler 17:57:56 AnMaster: but things like $(incdir) rely on things higher up the makefile 17:58:00 which are set by autoconf 17:58:00 they should be split 17:58:04 how does automake handle those 17:58:19 well as autoconf is still used that will be set above 17:58:50 ais523, automake doesn't replace the syntax of autoconf, it simply extends it quite a bit 17:59:06 AnMaster: things like datadir are set in Makefile.in 17:59:09 from autoconf variables 17:59:19 I'm not sure if automake would have variables with the same name 17:59:20 ais523, yes that will still work 17:59:22 trust me 17:59:28 I could have called it pinkfluffyponies and it would still work 17:59:45 well if you had a line like: pinkfluffyponies = @pinkfluffyponies@ 17:59:47 then it would 17:59:50 :P 18:00:00 or whatever 18:00:02 hm, ok 18:00:47 ais523, automake will lump together lots of variables at the start (all those you don't explicitly define) and then put your defines and finally the targets 18:00:51 mostly that is what happen 18:01:23 ais523, anyway installing would take some time to convert 18:01:44 well, it isn't that hard, just making dirs and copying files 18:01:53 although I am disappointed that your way requires an install 18:02:01 ais523, well that could be changed 18:02:14 yes, I suppose so 18:02:19 ais523, however it wouldn't be as trivial 18:02:24 I'm not sure *I* could pull it off 18:02:27 also, where does automake put the obj files? 18:02:31 in the same place as the sources? 18:02:35 that strikes me as a bad idea 18:02:39 ais523, well I assume you will do a true out of tree build 18:02:44 :P 18:02:46 what if I have a .o in the sources with the same name as the .c 18:03:09 ais523, why would you have that? and as I said: I assume true out of tree builds will be done 18:03:15 or even enforced like gcc enforces it 18:03:47 AnMaster: it's not beyond the realms of possibility that I might want a .c and a .i with the same name 18:03:51 currently C-INTERCAL doesn't allow that 18:04:14 well... no idea :P 18:04:42 ais523, I have autotools on massive but *sane* projects, nothing like ick's all build system quirks 18:06:44 *.c: *.bin 18:06:45 ./bin2c blergh < $< > $@ 18:06:50 well blergh make that not work 18:06:53 otherwise it would work 18:07:10 ais523, see ? 18:07:14 AnMaster: I have to specify the names of the character sets somehow 18:07:21 as it happens, they're specified in the makefile 18:07:54 xpm makes the name of the variable in the file dependant on the file name iirc 18:08:03 something like that could make sense I guess 18:08:22 yep, I do that somewhere too 18:08:33 the .bin files are used for two things 18:08:41 they're installed, and used as .bin files, by convickt 18:08:55 but they're also converted into .c then .o and linked to the runtime libraries, for use by the I/O code 18:09:01 LOADLIBS = @LIBS@ @LEXLIB@ 18:09:03 it is never used 18:09:06 so what is it for? 18:09:29 that's been there forever, more or less, probably something to do with the last-but-one build system 18:09:44 ais523, well, it doesn't seem to be used at all? 18:10:11 well, quite possibly it isn't at present 18:10:23 I think it was probably used by an old install system, or something like that 18:10:39 ais523, anyway I fail at expressing the mutli-unknown-file dependency on the generated oil files in a way that can be resolved in advance (which is needed) 18:11:12 apart from that and some painful with with install my conversion probably works 18:12:24 so I give up 18:13:00 well, I'm not sure how much of an advantage automake would have over the current build system anyway 18:13:08 the current system is at least nice and expressive of what it does 18:13:13 showing all the steps explicitly 18:13:41 ais523, it would be considerably shorter and take care of tracking dependency on headers automatically, also it would be easier to maintain 18:14:21 ais523, most of the time you can shrink numbers of lines/chars/whatever considerably by using automake 18:14:34 it needs automake, though. Does it run on DOS? (Last I tried, configure scripts had to be built seperately for DOS.) Does it run on systems which don't have automake? 18:14:52 ais523, the files can be generated in advance 18:14:57 what about systems where the default shell isn't sh-compatible? (I have sh -c at various points for that reason.) 18:14:58 automake will generate autoconf files 18:15:06 which then will be processed by configure 18:15:38 ais523, also it should be as compatible as the generated configure 18:16:01 which iirc is pretty well 18:16:24 ais523, it does work on mingw+msys on windows too 18:16:31 I used projects which had to do that 18:16:52 ais523, as for DOS: no clue and I don't think anyone else knows either :P 18:17:19 AnMaster: well, there's evidence in the autoconf changelog that they tried to fix it to run on DOS 18:17:25 also in comments in the source code 18:17:31 ais523, I assume you will put cfunge in some separate source directory? 18:17:32 so I'm hopeful that it'll work next time I tried 18:17:41 AnMaster: I haven't thought about how to distribute cfunge yet 18:17:53 I'm thinking about distributing fffungi separately from ick 18:17:58 oh? 18:18:03 after all, different licences, different packaging, and so on 18:18:11 if you distribute it separately you should probably use cmake 18:18:13 I can help there 18:18:36 ais523, I don't think cmake works on DOS, but it does for about everything else :P 18:18:49 including MSVC project files 18:19:14 but cfunge won't compile under MSVC as it lacks C99 and you would also need to remove some fingerprints that depend on fork() and such 18:19:26 ais523, I guess ick has no problem with vfork() btw? 18:19:28 or fork() 18:19:31 forgot what one I use 18:19:37 AnMaster: if followed by an exec, no 18:19:45 otherwise yes 18:19:49 it is indeed followed by an exec 18:20:11 ais523, well a few pipe operations + an exec 18:20:17 // Do the FD stuff. 18:20:18 // Close unused end 18:20:18 close(outfds[0]); 18:20:18 // Dup the FD 18:20:18 dup2(outfds[1], 2); 18:20:22 yep, that's fine 18:20:23 things like that in the forked side 18:20:35 ais523, oh a strdup to build arguments array too it seems 18:20:37 as long as the forked side never returns 18:20:41 but that is a heap operation 18:20:49 indeed, it doesn't return 18:20:54 so no problem 18:21:25 it either exec() or _Exit()s 18:21:38 _Exit() in case of errors 18:21:43 _Exit? 18:21:46 I thought it was _exit 18:21:57 The function _exit() terminates the calling process "immediately". Any open file descriptors belonging to the process are closed; any children of the 18:21:57 process are inherited by process 1, init, and the process's parent is sent a SIGCHLD signal. 18:22:06 _Exit is C99 18:22:11 while _exit is POSIX 18:22:15 what's the difference? 18:22:16 anything? 18:22:18 Feature Test Macro Requirements for glibc (see feature_test_macros(7)): 18:22:18 _Exit(): _XOPEN_SOURCE >= 600 || _ISOC99_SOURCE; or cc -std=c99 18:22:20 ais523, only the name 18:23:12 and that one is C standard while the other is POSIX standard 18:23:28 "The function _Exit() is equivalent to _exit()." 18:23:28 well, you need both, right? 18:23:34 both C99 and POSIC 18:23:36 ais523, no why would I? 18:23:38 s/POSIC/POSIX/ 18:23:41 I'm C99 18:23:53 and POSIX.1-2001 defines _Exit() too 18:23:54 you use srandom() IIRC? 18:23:59 I thought that was POSIX 18:24:02 C has srand() 18:24:02 ais523, yes I do. I need both yes 18:24:12 I don't need both _exit() and _Exit() 18:24:17 I thought that was what you said :P 18:24:46 ah 18:25:07 and yes environ is POSIX too 18:25:14 there are a few more things like fork() and such 18:25:31 ais523: you know, integrating ccbi would probably have been less crazy.. 18:25:40 tusho, ccbi is D.... 18:25:42 tusho: ccbi's written in D 18:25:47 that would be painful and hard to compile 18:25:56 also, I think cfunge works really well with this 18:25:59 D isn't painful 18:25:59 :p 18:26:07 it's pretty well-behaved from ick's point of view 18:26:09 tusho, to integrate into a C program? yes 18:26:09 dunno how it interfaces with c, though 18:26:18 ok then, someone needs to write a sane funge interp in c 18:26:19 :P 18:26:37 ais523, and yes cfunge is quite well behaved compared to ick 18:26:42 tusho, look it is saner than ick 18:26:52 I never do longjmp() or such 18:27:12 AnMaster: well, longjmp() in C mirrors INTERCAL's FORGET perfectly 18:27:12 longjmp() is pretty sane 18:27:15 so how could I not use it? 18:27:19 hah 18:27:24 tusho, not really 18:27:25 __posix_tell_fuzzy_logic_cpu_central_board ... not so much 18:27:44 from man page: 18:27:47 "longjmp() and siglongjmp() make programs hard to understand and maintain. If possible an alternative should be used." 18:27:47 :P 18:27:57 * ais523 begins to wonder if C-INTERCAL could do with a few _posix_fadvises just to annoy tusho 18:28:07 AnMaster: yes, I know that line's in the man page 18:28:09 ais523, not _ in front iirc 18:28:18 AnMaster: ok 18:28:31 yep, no _ 18:28:34 otherwise I got the right name 18:28:34 ais523, just check the #ifdef and such to see if it is supported, for example FreeBSD 6.2 doesn't support it 18:28:49 AnMaster: I'd use autoconf to check if it's supported, it's simpler that way 18:28:59 ais523, that isn't what the standard says 18:29:04 you try to link it, and if it fails, it isn't supported 18:29:04 #if defined(_POSIX_ADVISORY_INFO) && (_POSIX_ADVISORY_INFO > 0) 18:29:06 code here 18:29:07 #endif 18:29:22 would be the correct way according to man posixoptions 18:29:23 :P 18:29:23 and the reason autoconf's useful is that it works even on things that don't obey the standards 18:29:25 which is most of them 18:29:43 ais523, well 1) only POSIX systems will ever define these 18:29:49 AnMaster: what will you be optimizing for next? cpu cache? 18:29:59 tusho: I thought you liked J 18:30:00 tusho, ooh cachegrind from valgrind? 18:30:01 :P 18:30:10 ais523: yes I do and? 18:30:17 well it's optimised for CPU cache 18:30:28 that's not why I like it, though 18:30:34 i like it for its paradigm & conciseness 18:30:37 it's refreshing 18:31:03 ais523, 2) then check using the way I suggested, as that is the correct way according to man page and a freebsd developer I asked 18:31:27 IIRC some systems don't define those even though they have them 18:31:39 ais523, well that is crazy 18:31:51 why support broken systems though? 18:31:55 not really, it's because they have to have C99-compatible headers too 18:32:09 I've done that by mistake simply by using -ansi in a file which was actually POSIX 18:32:10 eh? 18:32:16 hm 18:32:27 it went and turned off support for all the POSIX functions whose protos were in, say, string.h 18:32:32 or other headers that exist in non-POSIX C 18:32:42 ais523, if you write out a binary file and know how long it will be try posix_fallocate() 18:32:53 that does actually have a use: helps against fragmentation 18:32:54 AnMaster: I only write out text files of unknown length 18:32:59 again see _POSIX_ADVISORY_INFO 18:32:59 so not particularly helpful 18:33:01 ais523, ah 18:33:02 why support broken systems though? 18:33:07 why support any systems? 18:33:11 good question! 18:33:20 is it? 18:33:22 tusho: well, CLC-INTERCAL and C-INTERCAL both still support EBCDIC 18:33:32 and that's obsolete 18:33:39 ais523: I was telling AnMaster that all systems are broken 18:33:40 although for C-INTERCAL you need to use a conversion program 18:33:51 ais523, how would the code for C-INTERCAL be compiled on that? you would need to convert to tri-graphs right? 18:34:03 AnMaster: the C source code's ASCII 18:34:12 it's INTERCAL source it accepts in EBCDIC 18:34:14 yes but could it be converted? 18:34:17 but yes, converting to trigraphs is trivial 18:34:27 and any EBCDIC system should be capable of it nowadays 18:34:52 int main(void)?? 18:34:57 "and any EBCDIC system should be capable of it nowadays" 18:34:58 *g* 18:35:11 tusho: really, or they wouldn't be able to run most C 18:36:50 EBCDIC systems still exist? 18:36:59 AnMaster: probably not, but just in case... 18:37:15 dd still handles EBCDIC IIRC 18:37:21 hah 18:37:33 dd does binary doesn't it? 18:37:36 [[ 18:37:38 Each CONV symbol may be: 18:37:38 ascii from EBCDIC to ASCII 18:37:38 ebcdic from ASCII to EBCDIC 18:37:39 ]] 18:37:41 from man dd 18:37:43 oh 18:37:44 yes, it does binary 18:37:50 man recode :P 18:37:51 but also supports ascii/ebcdic conversion 18:37:58 which is binary, I suppose 18:38:06 because it isn't textmode from either system's point of view 18:38:09 at least, not at both ends 18:38:39 ais523: dd should not be doing that... 18:38:44 it should be a seperate program.. 18:38:55 the unix way, etc 18:39:14 tusho, yes like recode or such 18:39:22 dd isn't very unixy 18:39:30 dd if=foo of=blah bs=1234 18:39:31 AnMaster: O RLY 18:39:34 unixy would be 18:39:43 dd -i foo -o blah -b 1234 18:39:45 :P 18:39:52 so not very unixy indeed 18:39:56 AnMaster: dd itself isn't unix 18:40:01 'dd - convert and copy a file' 18:40:04 it is older yes 18:40:06 it has 'and' in the description of what it does 18:40:10 instant unix fail 18:40:31 tusho, ooh an idea: 18:40:46 funtoken - execute commands of the funge 18:40:53 funadd - add operand 18:40:54 and so on 18:41:06 so just one program calling one other program for each opcode! 18:41:07 XD 18:41:11 heh 18:41:14 with data sent over stdio 18:41:20 to handle changes to stack and such 18:41:27 -!- atsampson has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 18:41:27 -!- cmeme has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 18:41:30 because main program would need to keep track of that 18:41:39 oh no wait 18:41:49 a separate daemon for funge space and one for stack 18:41:51 tusho, XD 18:41:56 hey, cmeme came back! 18:41:57 talking over unix sockets 18:42:28 yes 18:42:30 you said that yesterday 18:42:35 just a netsplit 18:42:45 -!- atsampson has joined. 18:42:45 AnMaster: no, the netsplit caused it to leave 18:42:52 which is when I noticed that it was here in the first place 18:42:54 it was missing for weeks 18:43:02 but must have come back or the netsplit wouldn't have made it leave 18:44:36 oh, I have to go 18:44:39 bye, everyone 18:44:40 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1""). 18:44:40 -!- cmeme has joined. 18:45:09 -!- Judofyr has left (?). 18:45:19 -!- Polar has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:45:55 why does he have to go 18:45:57 he never said 18:48:38 -!- Polar has joined. 18:48:54 who wants to hear about my evil project 18:49:03 depends on what it is 18:49:08 AnMaster: dude, the guy is at uni and has to go to cafes and stuff regularly to get to computers and stuff. 18:49:16 why does it matter? 18:49:21 hm ok 18:49:26 what is your evil project then 18:49:32 i think you've heard it 18:49:38 not sure 18:49:44 yeah 18:49:44 you have 18:49:46 what one is it 18:49:57 you have so many evil projects 18:50:26 ah I see 18:50:35 well yes I heard about that one 18:56:13 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:11:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 19:57:23 -!- RedDak has joined. 20:28:44 Bye all 20:32:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:41:28 -!- timotiis has joined. 20:43:52 tusho, where is ais I wonder 20:43:53 :/ 20:44:23 AnMaster: at home 20:44:31 i guess 21:14:06 -!- puzzlet has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:14:06 -!- Dewi has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:15:34 -!- Dewi has joined. 21:15:34 -!- puzzlet has joined. 21:19:03 -!- pikhq has left (?). 22:06:13 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 22:26:43 -!- cctoide has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:27:03 -!- cctoide has joined. 22:36:45 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 22:39:28 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu3. 22:40:46 -!- sebbu has quit (Nick collision from services.). 22:43:27 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 22:48:29 Is there anything you can do to force a brainfuck program to halt, apart from letting it run to the end of it's code? 22:48:52 jamesstanley: no 22:48:56 OK, thanks 22:48:57 + - < > , . [ ] 22:48:58 that's it 22:49:01 learn to use it :-P 22:49:17 I was wondering if you can do anything with those that causes an undefined state which would cause it to halt. 22:49:26 jamesstanley: Nope. 22:49:32 OK 22:50:05 jamesstanley: Can I perhaps define each one for you? :P 22:50:17 I know what the commands do 22:50:25 I've written several small programs now 22:50:42 jamesstanley: Then you'd know that the commands have nothing about halting.. 22:50:42 I was just wondering if there was any way to make execution halt without letting it run to the end. Seems not. 22:51:02 Well, decrementing the memory pointer past 0 might make it stop 22:51:06 All sorts of undefined things like that 22:51:18 There are ways to terminate a C program without calling exit. ;) 22:51:40 Anyway, I'm going to bed now. 22:51:44 jamesstanley: generally that wraps it to 255 22:51:47 or whatever the max is 22:51:51 but it's exactly that undefined 22:54:26 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 23:18:31 -!- olsner has joined. 23:18:45 anyone know french? "Madame Camille obtient la crampe de chatte si vous ne mangez pas de tout son fromage." 23:19:20 she contracted a cramp because someone didn't eat all the cheese? 23:21:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 23:21:40 olsner: hahahahahah 23:23:14 or she *will* get a cramp *unless* you eat all the cheese? 23:26:18 jamesstanley: well, you can do beginning_of_code maybe_halt_code end_of_code ==> beginning_of_code {not halting_cond}[ end_of_code ] 23:27:23 and if you make an interp consider the end of the program an infinite supply of ]'s, you can have a "context-free" way to halt 23:27:32 hmm 23:27:44 actually not that simple in case you're inside a loop when you wanna halt. 23:27:56 sorry, i didn't think that through 23:28:43 jamesstanley: oklopol always talks like this 23:30:59 yeah, he always fails 23:32:02 hah 23:50:56 o 23:54:13 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:58:21 http://www.www.extra-www.org/ 23:58:57 GregorR: is this your response to no-www 23:59:03 Yes :P 23:59:04 (that's my pre-click prediction) 23:59:06 Yes it is :P 23:59:42 GregorR: you need a compliance checker 23:59:53 'struth :P 23:59:57 a four grade system: 2008-07-02: 00:00:05 err, four + a special one 00:00:12 BUNK - website won't load at all! 00:00:23 FAIL - www.www doesn't work 00:00:31 GOOD - www. redirects to www.www 00:00:41 BEST - no prefix and www. redirects to www.www 00:01:24 EVEN BESTERER - no prefix and www. redirect to www.www.extra-www.org, www.www works as expected 00:01:25 :P 00:02:00 How does no-www.org's checker work? Just looks at the HTTP headers, right, doesn't expect HTML-redirect or whatnot? 00:02:32 GregorR: headers, right 00:02:41 GregorR: oh, wait 00:02:43 instead of EVEN BESTERER 00:02:53 HARDCORE - www. and no prefix don't work at all, but www.www. does 00:03:03 (no-www's Class C) 00:03:21 i mean who wants to show an information page GregorR? 00:03:23 when you can just fail 00:04:16 I should make www. and no-prefix fail for www.www.extra-www.org . 00:04:22 Or maybe not :P 00:04:29 GregorR: No 00:04:32 no-www doesn't 00:04:35 I know 00:04:37 because how will people know when they find it 00:04:37 :P 00:04:42 But it would be HARD-EFFING-CORE!!! 00:04:42 :P 00:04:48 yes it would 00:05:01 GregorR: will codu.org adopt extra-www standards? 00:05:12 http://www.www.codu.org/ 00:05:16 not much of a Great Success ! 00:05:21 :P 00:05:31 It could POSSIBLY be that extra-www is a joke X-P 00:05:38 GregorR: Yes but adopting jokes is fun 00:05:56 Testing extra-www.org for HTTP access 00:05:56 Domain does not qualify. Error code: NA 00:06:18 GregorR: Wait, are you writing the qualifiers? 00:06:21 awesome 00:06:25 use my levels 00:06:27 they're pwnsome 00:06:38 That was the result from no-www.org on extra-www.org . 00:06:43 oh 00:06:43 ha 00:06:48 GregorR: 24 hour lag stuffs 00:06:49 also 00:06:52 you buy so many domains 00:06:55 buy tusho.org next time 00:06:58 i'll luff you forever 00:07:11 Is it not already owned by softcore porn? 00:07:32 GregorR: Shut up. 00:12:59 -!- Corun has joined. 00:15:27 * GregorR forgot how awful PHP is :P 00:18:44 GregorR: will codu.org adopt extra-www standards? 00:18:44 http://www.www.codu.org/ 00:18:46 GregorR: Ooh... a D web library... 00:18:48 extra www? 00:18:49 Now that sounds appealing. 00:18:55 AnMaster: http://www.www.extra-www.org/ 00:19:02 GregorR: Does it now? 00:19:03 *not 00:19:07 AnMaster: the answer is like 5 lines back 00:19:22 there is no-www I know 00:19:25 extra-www is new 00:19:36 AnMaster: GregorR just made it 00:19:38 it's a parody of no-www 00:19:48 aha 00:19:54 GregorR: y/n 00:20:09 "envbot.org previously reported as Class B. " 00:20:11 :P 00:20:22 tusho: No, it is not (yet?) extra-www compliant. 00:20:31 GregorR: uhh 00:20:32 www.envbot.org redirects to non-www version 00:20:32 what 00:20:35 I didn't repeat that, GregorR 00:20:39 if just the damn dns wasn't broken 00:20:43 GregorR: I was saying how a D web library sounded 00:21:00 Now that sounds appealing. GregorR: Does it now // /me didn't get this :P 00:21:01 because you complained about php 00:21:04 Idonno, I haven't really looked into one. 00:21:12 GregorR: Well I didn't mean using an existing one 00:21:13 Psht. 00:21:16 That would be LAYM 00:21:32 Unless I wrote it - which I'm now toying with... 00:22:00 :P 00:24:04 GregorR: Hmm. A D templating language just seems WRONG 00:24:16 Test <%= new Foo() %> 00:25:34 xD 00:26:03 -!- olsner has quit. 00:27:19 GregorR: wtf is the tango logo 00:27:45 it exists? 00:27:58 http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/chrome/theme/images/Logo5.png 00:28:10 tusho, cut off? 00:28:22 http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/chrome/theme/images/Head-NewTango3.png 00:28:22 tusho: How should I know? :P 00:28:31 GregorR: You do tango stuff! 00:28:39 Not the art. 00:28:44 Still. 00:28:44 :P 00:29:06 GregorR, why do you do D? 00:29:13 AnMaster: he likes it? 00:29:19 poor him 00:29:43 AnMaster: You don't like it? 00:29:46 AnMaster: why? 00:29:52 what's wrong with D apart from you not liking it? 00:29:54 GregorR, I know it is a hell to get working 00:30:01 AnMaster: no it's not 00:30:01 This is an unfortunate truth. 00:30:03 well 00:30:04 Heh 00:30:04 wasn't for me 00:30:05 I couldn't get tango to compile on gdc even 00:30:14 i mean, it was a little of fuss the first time 00:30:16 but not really that much 00:30:26 GregorR, so I gave up 00:30:34 I expect it to work out of box with gdc 00:30:41 that day I may consider D 00:30:50 because at syntax level D looks really nice 00:30:52 GregorR: say, what's the inline delegate syntax? 00:30:54 for passing to a function 00:31:02 for non performance critical applications 00:31:04 { /* place content here */ } 00:31:15 AnMaster: I take it cfunge is an enterprise performance critical application? 00:31:20 GregorR: so wut: 00:31:21 func({ ... }) 00:31:22 ? 00:31:25 Yeah 00:31:34 GregorR: maybe a plof web lib would be better 00:31:34 tusho, that is beside the point 00:31:36 mm? 00:31:47 (o, and how does it take arguments like that) 00:32:17 anyway I would just continue to use C idioms I bet :P 00:32:22 * AnMaster is used to that 00:33:13 GregorR: well? 00:33:35 Sure, why not. 00:33:49 You could have a whole HTML-compatible syntax built into Plof, so you just need to toss a HTML file through the interpreter. 00:34:20 GregorR: That would be the Plof Templating Language, I guess. But it'd be nice to write the backend in Real User Plof. :P 00:34:25 Now how do I take arguments to a delegate...? 00:35:38 GregorR: wal? :( 00:35:42 (int foo, int bar) { ... } 00:35:57 a 00:35:58 i c 00:36:40 gcc (GCC) 4.1.2 20070214 ( (gdc 0.24, using dmd 1.020)) (Gentoo 4.1.2 p1.0.2) 00:36:42 GregorR, ^ 00:36:44 GregorR: what does plof look like these days 00:36:48 can't compile any tango version 00:37:01 tusho: Like that, sort of ;) 00:37:06 AnMaster: E_WORKSFORME 00:37:11 GregorR: wot 00:37:14 GregorR, another thing: tango can't install into a prefix it seems 00:37:15 ? 00:37:30 which means I can't use it on systems with phobos where I don't have root 00:37:33 AnMaster: Tango needs to install over the Phobos GDC comes with: it is a replacement core library. 00:37:35 so totally useless 00:37:42 GregorR, I can't depend on that 00:37:56 And yet you CAN depend on having a D installation in the first place? That's weird. 00:38:00 I love AnMaster's enterprisey concerns 00:38:05 GregorR, the day it can be installed into a prefix, or is default maybe 00:38:09 "But ... something might break! Conceivably! So it's best I just don't use D." 00:38:12 GregorR, well let me tell you why 00:38:19 GregorR, 1) tango is hard to install correctly 00:38:23 no it's not 00:38:26 2) gdc is also hard, but less hard 00:38:32 no it's not 00:38:33 Tango can be installed to a prefix by nature of the fact that GDC can be installed to a prefix, btw. 00:38:44 GregorR, well not a different prefix 00:38:58 AnMaster: dude, tango more than just a libc replacement 00:39:02 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:39:06 it literally rips out everything that d does 00:39:08 and adds its new stuff 00:39:13 it HAS to replace the other stuff 00:39:22 it's not an opt-in thing, because of its very nature 00:39:25 GregorR, I don't know if this depends on me using x86_64 or not but it doesn't work for me (TM) 00:39:45 also it prevents using programs that wants phobos instead of tango 00:39:49 x86_64 has been historically more difficult than x86, but when I switched to x86_64 I didn't notice any difference. 00:39:57 That's what tangobos is for. 00:40:02 GregorR, why can't D just decide on *ONE* standard library 00:40:05 like C does 00:40:06 AnMaster: they have 00:40:08 nobody uses phobos 00:40:16 like C does // Hahaha 00:40:19 tusho, why is it default then? 00:40:22 GregorR: yeah I lol'd at that 00:40:24 GregorR, it is defined in specs 00:40:30 AnMaster: because walter bright uses phobos 00:40:32 they are compatible 00:40:33 and he made D 00:40:47 GregorR, even if they are not the same software they conform to the same specs 00:41:03 libc is very broken in a lot of places 00:41:07 I can take a program developed for glibc and drop it on freebsd and so on 00:41:08 and too minimalistic for any usage to boot 00:41:11 i'd much rather have tango 00:41:16 AnMaster: no you can't 00:41:28 tusho, as long as it only uses what is in the C specs 00:41:30 then yes 00:41:31 you have to think about it in advance 00:41:41 AnMaster: ... thus making glibc's improvements worthless! 00:41:42 great! 00:41:53 tusho, they are vendor specific functions, all got that 00:42:22 * GregorR chooses to completely ignore and not respond to this argument. 00:42:44 but the standard is rich enough for C (IMO, I know you will disagree) that apart from networking (which POSIX specs) the common "subset" works well 00:42:59 GregorR, anyway problem is it is hard to get D working 00:43:09 GregorR: so plof 00:43:11 show me a plof program 00:43:14 the language itself is beautiful IMO 00:43:17 GregorR, ^ 00:43:23 AnMaster: I admit that, but have neither the manpower nor skills to change that. 00:43:27 tusho: Uhhhh 00:43:33 GregorR: Scratch that 00:43:33 tusho: Idonno, what do you want? 00:43:36 GregorR: Write a plof program 00:43:36 :-P 00:43:40 (Since there are none.) 00:43:47 And I just want a basic syntax, stdlib using program. 00:43:48 You know 00:43:50 I can show you a chunk of the core library *shrugs* 00:43:58 GregorR: Yeah but the core library isn't what user code wil lbe 00:43:59 :P 00:44:07 Not the corest part of the core library. 00:44:19 Yeah well ;-; 00:44:26 GregorR, also it isn't as mature yet. How much will future D specs differ. Both C and C++ are quite mature by now (well FORTRAN beats them of course) 00:44:48 AnMaster: d 2.0 is pretty stable 00:44:50 AnMaster: I'm not even arguing for D here, tusho was :P 00:44:57 and you don't have to use the newer features if you don't want 00:45:06 tusho, and that is what gdc implements? 00:45:07 i don't think many backwards-incompatible changes have been made 00:45:12 how stable is gdc? 00:45:13 AnMaster: it implements a lot of 2.0 00:45:18 gdc is pretty stable 00:45:21 is gdc the only open source interpreter? 00:45:22 your code won't break overnight 00:45:25 'interpreter'? 00:45:28 err 00:45:29 compiler 00:45:31 and gdc just hooks in dmd into gcc 00:45:33 * AnMaster is half asleep 00:45:34 dmd's frontend is open source 00:45:40 just it's backend isn't because of other people's code 00:45:54 tusho, well there are no independent frontends are there? 00:46:03 tusho: http://www.codu.org/cgi-bin/hg/hgwebdir.cgi/plof/file/512a473fb11b/core/pul/collection.plof // this has a few psl{} bits, but, err, ignore those :P 00:46:05 AnMaster: no, so what? it's open source and alright 00:46:10 GregorR: "$DPLOF $FLAGS $INFILES -c $OUTFILE" 00:46:13 GregorR: WHAT ABOUT SPACES 00:46:17 tusho, for C there are quite a few implementations, both closed and open source 00:46:20 "QUOTE" "YOUR" "VARIABLES" 00:46:25 AnMaster: yeah, and it's the exception mostly 00:46:31 tusho: I know, I cringed when I wrote that, but the nested quoting was getting way complicated :P 00:46:33 tusho, hm? 00:46:41 AnMaster: perl 00:46:41 python 00:46:43 ruby 00:46:44 clean 00:46:45 yes 00:46:48 i can go on 00:46:49 forever 00:46:51 but they are interpreted 00:46:58 C++ got quite a few implementations too 00:46:58 AnMaster: uh 00:47:00 clean is not interpreted 00:47:02 AnMaster: Very, very few languages have multiple frontends. C++ has two, most of the commercial ones license the frontend from a single company. 00:47:14 tusho, oh I didn't see clean until I pressed enter 00:47:20 (There have been others for C++ in the past, but most are dead) 00:47:32 GregorR, hm? C++ got more, MSVC, g++ and icc iirc 00:48:02 oh doesn't Borland have one too? 00:48:03 MSVC and ICC are both EDG 00:48:07 So is Borland. 00:48:10 "EDG"? 00:48:12 They all license the EDG frontend. 00:48:17 AnMaster: http://www.edg.com/ 00:48:35 tusho, thanks 00:48:44 C got gcc, icc, MSVC (that one sucks), Borland's, pcc, and some more 00:48:50 AnMaster: wrong 00:48:54 MSVC = Borland = ICC 00:49:03 same frontend 00:49:04 for C too? 00:49:12 uh, I believe so 00:49:16 maybe 00:49:24 AnMaster, tusho: I'm not sure about C, I just know they share the C++ frontend. 00:49:36 AnMaster, tusho: In fact, they probably all have their own C frontend (if they don't just reuse the C++ one) 00:49:52 Except of course GCC which has all its own frontends. 00:49:52 I imagine there's a lot of reuse 00:49:53 But yeah 00:49:56 C is damn unique 00:50:03 GregorR, pcc got it's own I'm sure 00:50:11 GregorR: plof looks nice 00:50:14 one suggestion though, GregorR 00:50:21 GregorR, pcc is BSD licensed 00:50:21 make (binop) be the same as (x, y)(x binop y) 00:50:24 tusho: We're agreeing with you that C compilers usually have their own frontends. 00:50:28 product = { fold(0, (*)) } 00:50:41 (stolen from haskell, but very very nice) 00:50:49 tusho: I want to, but that's a bit obnoxious from how I've designed the parsing framework >_> 00:50:59 GregorR, anyway gdc is not a part of the official GCC tree is it? 00:51:00 (Unfortunately) 00:51:04 AnMaster: No. 00:51:09 GregorR: Well, if you do get it working - add (.meth) -> (o, ...){ o.meth(...) } 00:51:11 will it ever be? 00:51:12 GregorR: That's also useful 00:51:22 [1,2,3].map(.succ) 00:51:25 AnMaster: Not so long as Walter retains copyright over the frontend. 00:51:29 otherwise support can just drop in the future 00:51:35 tusho: That would be useful 8-D 00:51:38 GregorR, eh, I thought you said it was open source? 00:51:45 GregorR: Stole that from a common ruby extension-idiom :P 00:51:50 AnMaster: fsf requires copyright assignment 00:51:52 AnMaster: It is, but GCC only incorporates things which are both GPL and owned by the FSF. 00:51:53 GregorR, open source as defined by OSI? 00:51:57 aha 00:51:58 right 00:52:29 GregorR: [1,2,3].map(.succ).fold(0, (*)) 00:52:30 yum 00:52:31 well once tango is default and it is easy to set up I may consider D 00:52:31 actually 00:52:34 you could probably drop the parens 00:52:36 I doubt it's ambigious 00:52:38 until then: C for me 00:52:42 GregorR: [1,2,3].map(.succ).fold(0, *) 00:52:44 total win or what 00:52:48 D looks like a good language compared to C++ 00:53:02 tusho: Agreed :) 00:53:16 maybe a bit *too* much to easily learn but nicer syntax than C++ 00:53:30 GregorR: Does plof have varargs? What's the syntax? 00:53:31 GregorR, is it possible to skip the garbage collector in D? 00:53:37 GregorR, avoiding the runtime library at all? 00:53:50 AnMaster: if you avoid the runtime lib you have to fill out a lot of functions for it to run 00:53:51 but yes 00:53:55 that's only done for OS dev though 00:53:57 tusho: Sort of, but it's gross right now, haven't thought of a clean way to do it: Basically, every function has an args[] array *shrugs* 00:53:59 you CAN disable the gc though 00:54:01 AnMaster: Yes. 00:54:02 tusho, exactly what my point was 00:54:03 :P 00:54:12 but who would write a kernel in D... 00:54:12 AnMaster: you can disable the gc 00:54:13 AnMaster: Erm, you can do it even without tearing out the runtime library 00:54:15 in the code 00:54:17 I have seen kernels in C++ 00:54:27 and a lot in C 00:54:27 GregorR: well, how about this: (a, b, c...) { /* c is the rest of the args */ } 00:54:31 but none in D so far 00:54:31 AnMaster: Like tusho is saying, you can disable the GC - also, you can just never incur it by never using 'new' :P 00:54:32 GregorR: fairly simple syntax extension 00:54:36 AnMaster: xana has a d kernel 00:54:42 tusho, link? 00:54:49 i think xana 00:55:02 tusho: That's the ultimate plan (that's what Plof2 did), but I don't have .slice working, so it's not in yet ;) 00:55:12 AnMaster: http://code.google.com/p/projectxana/ 00:55:58 "xanalogical functionalities" 00:56:04 wtf is that :) 00:56:12 AnMaster: like xanadu 00:56:16 (the original hypertext system) 00:56:18 (vaporware :P) 00:56:31 so what exactly *is* it? 00:56:48 AnMaster: complicated to explain, that's what 00:56:48 Nobody really knows :P 00:58:17 GregorR: Will Plof make me toast? 00:58:26 If so, I'm sold. 00:58:36 Has anyone ... written any programs in Plof yet? 00:58:45 Aside from, um, test.plof 00:58:52 tusho: No, I keep on pulling the language out from under them ;) 00:59:09 GregorR: You forgot curry.plof!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 00:59:25 Also, GregorR, #plof time 00:59:27 wht is plof? 01:00:15 GregorR, tusho: is plof esoteric? 01:00:18 no 01:00:22 ah 01:22:50 -!- tusho has quit. 01:43:00 http://www.www.extra-www.org/validator.php 01:46:04 -!- kwertii has joined. 03:34:23 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:01:29 Checking www.www.google.com ... failed to connect 04:01:29 Checking www.google.com ... does not redirect 04:01:29 Checking google.com ... does not redirect 04:01:29 google.com class: FAIL 04:08:26 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 04:10:43 I think I'm going to contact no-www.org now. 04:25:42 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 04:36:13 -!- oklofok has joined. 04:39:42 GregorR: i would like it more if it had fewer exclamation marks 04:39:53 (www.www.extra-www.org) 04:40:24 Reduced. 04:40:43 better 04:40:56 and the color scheme sucks but of course that's not your fault :D 04:41:09 ^^ 04:41:11 (what were they thinking? it's genuinely hard to read) 04:45:01 Just added a link to no-www.org 04:45:05 Actually, to www.www.no-www.org , which works, awesomely enough. 04:46:35 hahaha 04:47:02 wow 04:47:11 not only it works, but it -does not redirect- 04:47:21 that is indeed awesome 04:47:27 Yup 04:47:43 they might fix that, though ;) 04:48:01 *eh* 04:48:02 :P 04:53:30 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out). 05:27:36 -!- kwertii has quit ("bye"). 07:26:03 ... 07:26:05 ... 07:26:07 ... 07:26:12 Befunge with portals! 07:26:16 Does this exist? 07:30:07 portal? 07:30:19 I'm thinking. 07:30:30 Although I'll have to read up on Befunge first 07:30:35 I don't know that much of i 07:30:35 t 07:32:29 Hm. 07:32:38 A bully automaton based on Portal. 07:33:25 ah you mean the game 07:33:51 Yes indeed. 07:34:36 It has plenty of crates, doors and buttons. 07:34:45 Maybe something could be done out of this. 07:34:49 Rube style. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:10:05 The hard part is to think up of a way to link the portals to each other and the doors to the buttons. 09:03:06 portal has two portals, the part where you shoot them is quite crucial 09:36:17 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 09:37:44 Actually, the first levels are full of already there portals 09:37:54 And shooting the portals would be quite a pain in the ass. 09:41:34 doubt 09:44:55 also, i doubt even sex with a man is as homoerotic as trying to open a bottle full of frozen energy drink. 09:45:40 it's like giving a blow job to a mechanical elephant 09:47:57 I'll trust you on that one. 09:48:41 first of all, you have to jam it in real good and twist it all around... and then it starts spraying fucking brown goo all around. 09:48:59 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklopol. 09:50:20 Isn't that more of a rimjob? 09:51:28 the brown part yeah (unless you bit it too hard or something) 09:53:09 oklopol has brown blood. 09:54:06 yeah i'm a klingon 09:54:40 this esme language seems very, very cool 09:55:05 If shameful D: 11:18:15 -!- olsner has joined. 11:28:49 -!- olsner has quit. 11:29:15 noodles 11:29:17 i wanna 11:50:44 Don't! 11:50:49 Remember the noodle incident? 11:51:47 i've been trying to forget... 12:48:23 -!- timotiis has joined. 13:01:43 -!- Corun has joined. 13:02:35 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:03:00 -!- Judofyr has joined. 13:20:54 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 13:55:55 -!- Corun has joined. 13:56:02 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:57:21 -!- atsampson has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:00:45 -!- atsampson has joined. 14:06:18 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:09:07 -!- oklopol has joined. 14:13:42 Will there EVER be specs for esme? 14:13:57 MKBL is better off than esme at this time' 14:16:20 http://www.viruscomix.com/page446.html 14:19:46 it would be so great working in a cubicle 14:19:52 in the dark 14:25:28 <3 cectic 14:25:43 Well, not this latest one 14:26:40 http://cectic.com/163.html 14:28:38 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:55:43 -!- Corun has joined. 15:10:20 Sgeo : What of Oklotalk? 15:10:26 Was there ever any specs? 15:24:20 yeah, right after the implementation 15:30:57 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:36:55 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:37:19 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 15:39:27 where is tusho and ais? 15:39:30 are* 15:45:05 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:45:37 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 15:59:26 PEOPLE DUDES 16:07:47 Slereah_, ? 16:08:11 I am back 16:10:22 -!- tusho has joined. 16:10:49 hi ais523 16:11:22 ais523 isn't here, you filthy noob! 16:11:24 [16:39:24] where is tusho and ais? 16:11:31 It seems you're right on time! 16:11:46 AnMaster, I usually get here around this time :p 16:11:51 but ais is probably, you know. Doing non-computer things 16:11:53 (WHOMFG) 16:12:09 oklopol: yes but if I check he could say hi first 16:15:42 tusho, hi 16:16:09 hi AnMaster 16:16:15 tusho, and ais isn't here 16:16:20 yes i know AnMaster 16:16:23 but it's the competition 16:16:23 that counts as failing 16:16:26 if I check, he'd count "hi ais523" 16:16:28 if the person isn't here 16:16:28 *say 16:16:32 AnMaster: sorry, no 16:16:34 there's only one rule 16:16:53 1. If ais523 and tusho are present whoever presses enter on "hi " wins 16:16:56 er 16:16:57 1. If ais523 and tusho are present whoever presses enter on "hi " first wins 16:19:23 but yes, ais, if you're logreading, do come 16:20:09 You know ais. When he's not here, he's just reading the logs all day 16:22:15 Slereah_: Pretty much. 16:41:32 tusho, your client took over half a minute from you joined to send 16:41:40 tusho, you want to fix your client 16:41:50 AnMaster: um 16:41:57 oklopol responded a few seconds after I hit enter 16:42:03 like 20 seconds after 16:42:10 * tusho (n=tusho@91.105.109.15) has joined #esoteric 16:42:21 err: 17:10:22 * tusho (n=tusho@91.105.109.15) has joined #esoteric 16:42:30 17:10:49 hi ais523 16:42:37 17:11:22 ais523 isn't here, you filthy noob! 16:42:41 whatever, AnMaster 16:42:42 that is what I saw 16:42:44 check clog 16:42:46 why do I care how long my client takes to join 16:42:51 20 seconds 16:42:52 so what 16:42:54 tusho, it does matter as you will loose 16:43:00 afk 16:43:00 AnMaster: i won yesterday 16:44:05 pfft, who cares about that now? 16:44:10 I know I don't 16:44:29 I care about who wins now 16:44:36 for at least another 10 seconds or so 16:45:00 this is the breakneck pace of the modern internets 16:47:29 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:47:39 -!- oklopol has joined. 16:49:33 -!- olsner has joined. 16:50:12 Dewi: but ais isn't here 16:59:08 GregorR: GRUGUR AR 17:27:21 Hate the new dilbert site design? http://www.dilbert.com/fast 17:29:06 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:29:23 -!- tusho has joined. 17:31:38 For that, I'd have to know the old design 17:33:14 It didn't use flash for everything 17:33:47 Flash is the great scourge of the new internet. 17:34:02 Flash should only be used to put together hilarious animations. 17:34:11 Web design using Flash makes me a sad panda. 17:35:11 Slereah_: Congrats, you're sane. 17:35:20 Well. 17:35:22 Partly. 17:36:28 One thing I like about the new design is the ability to read many on one page. The flash pain offsets that, though 17:36:35 Maybe I should make a dilbert.com scraper 17:36:56 it's hard to scrape flash, Sgeo ... 17:37:44 tusho, http://www.dilbert.com/fast 17:37:53 true 17:37:56 I might scrape that 17:37:59 It'd give me something to do 17:38:09 apart from all the other things I'm doing, that is 17:39:00 http://www.dilbert.com/fast/2008-06-15/ 17:43:11 http://www.dilbert.com/fast/2008-06-21/ 17:50:39 Holy fuck 17:50:45 Steam serves are fast. 17:51:00 But then again, they'd better be since they're annoying as fuck. 17:54:00 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:54:28 -!- olsner has joined. 18:03:10 -!- timotiis has joined. 18:03:21 no they're not you steam hater 18:03:37 anyway they're content servers of course they have the bandwidth of mr. hands 18:06:29 cctoide : Well, you know what would be better than the Steam system? 18:06:43 Not having to have internet when I want to play a fucking not online game. 18:07:47 Slereah_, wtf is steam in this context? 18:08:26 Steam is the system to activate Valve games. 18:08:32 Like Half Life or Portal. 18:08:48 GregorR: I just reddited extra-www. 18:08:51 To prevent piracy and such. 18:09:00 oh wow 18:09:03 someone already did 18:09:08 There's plenty of nice features in it 18:09:14 who is chromakode 18:09:23 But it doesn't change the fact that it's annoying when you've got connection trouble. 18:11:36 well go into offline mode then 18:11:57 Can I do such a thing? 18:12:46 Not having to have internet when I want to play a fucking not online game. 18:12:47 simple 18:12:52 redirect the call 18:13:01 record the traffic and write a fake server 18:13:10 you will need to tcpdump 18:13:13 AnMaster: 'simple' 18:13:16 REWRITE VALVE'S SERVER 18:13:21 tusho, hm? 18:13:23 WHICH PROBABLY USES CRAZY AUTHENTICATION AND ENCRYPTION 18:13:27 YEAH THAT'S TRIVIAL 18:13:31 Why didn't I think of that before! 18:13:43 Especially since Slereah_ is such a self-admitted EXPERT PROGRAMMER 18:13:51 tusho, I know someone who did it for some professional 3D software 18:13:53 :D 18:14:00 otherwise I wouldn't have suggested it 18:18:28 http://www.viruscomix.com/reducks.gif 18:18:35 Incest is the source of much comedy. 18:41:53 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:43:31 -_- 18:48:04 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:51:07 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:52:11 goood 18:52:17 i mean god 18:52:20 not good 18:52:28 "Brainfuck interpretter written in LolCode" is #1 on pr.reddit 18:54:59 yes 18:54:59 I know 18:55:02 it makes me sad 18:55:12 lolcode is so unique 18:55:13 so is brainfuck 18:55:16 ha-ha-ha 18:55:28 at least my comment got 33 points, right? 18:56:02 {Words cannot express the depth of my love for ridiculous esoteric programming languages being interpreted by other ridiculous esoteric programming languages.} 18:56:05 LOLCODE IS NOT FUCKING ESOTERIC 18:56:17 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:56:20 -!- tusho has set topic: LOLCode is NOT AN ESOLANG | #esoteric - the international hub for esoteric language design, development and deployment | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 18:58:05 -!- cherez has joined. 19:00:39 * pikhq waves at people 19:04:03 cherez: Care to get on IM? 19:07:05 pikhq: By the way, I have a Plof 3 resyntaxing proposal whirring around my head. Be prepared to hate me viciously when I show it. 19:07:20 tusho: I will. 19:07:34 However, if you keep the same bytecode-level ABI, then it won't even matter. 19:07:59 pikhq: No, but I'll rewrite the stdlib in it and try and convince GregorR it's the most awesomest thing ever. :P 19:08:19 If it's non-Plofy, then Gregor is liable to hate it. 19:08:25 Care to give some examples? 19:08:34 pikhq: Not non-Plofy, no. 19:08:41 Just cleaner. Less syntactic noise. More sugar, but not too much. 19:08:48 Oh. 19:08:49 Simple rules, but a little bit more complex for a great gain. 19:08:55 Well, then, he'll probably encourage it. 19:08:56 It's not THAT drastic. 19:09:14 pikhq: It borrows one or two things from Ruby, though, so I imagine you might dislike it :P 19:09:17 Though, it resembles Tcl too. 19:09:22 Well, not really. 19:09:25 But the bits it borrows do. 19:09:26 After all, he's made Plof 3's syntax runtime-definable just so that he can mess with things. 19:10:02 pikhq: I'll show you an initial prototype if you don't ask too many questions - I haven't worked out the formality yet :P 19:10:13 Mmkay. 19:10:16 (Two elements of it GregorR has already yes'd yesterday, so.) 19:10:39 Sheesh. The trac browser is slow. 19:11:12 There. 19:11:37 pikhq: 'K. sec. 19:13:03 Urgh. 19:13:04 SLOW 19:14:40 pikhq: JESUS, codu.org is slow 19:14:45 How can I rewrite a file if I can't get it? 19:14:49 That's not normal. 19:15:34 :| 19:17:09 KILL 19:19:16 pikhq: codu.org=down 19:19:42 That would explain it. 19:20:36 pikhq: I can has collection.plof? 19:20:58 Don't have a local copy; sorry. 19:21:16 Local machine. 19:21:18 Erm. 19:21:24 Work machine. 19:22:26 pikhq: Humph. 19:22:33 Wonder if it's in my cache 19:22:55 Wahey 19:22:56 Got it 19:23:10 Gah. 19:23:11 It has line numbers. 19:23:20 Aha 19:23:21 Got it 19:23:31 pikhq: Ok. Now I do it :P 19:23:37 Whoo. 19:23:53 I wonder if reddit'ing www.www.extra-www.org smashed my server :P 19:26:00 GregorR: Someone had submitted it before 19:26:01 o.o 19:26:03 I resubmitted it 19:26:06 Cause their title sucked 19:26:16 I didn't submit it, I just noticed that somebody else did. 19:26:19 Which is yours? 19:26:26 reddit.com/user/ehird 19:26:28 find it yourself 19:26:30 :P 19:26:42 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1060676 <-- Prototype initial Plof3-resyntaxing proposal. 19:26:47 Nothing is set in stone, but I think it looks a lot nicer. 19:26:56 (FYI, there's no extra special cases) 19:27:08 (And the fold(0, +) was already GregorR-approved yesterday) 19:27:17 it's not on the front page :( 19:27:20 Apart from that, it just looks way cleaner, i think 19:27:26 er 19:27:27 in 19:27:27 x this[i]; 19:27:30 the semicolon can be removed 19:27:31 http://www.www.reddit.com/info/6pyxu/comments/c04k3wy 19:28:21 GregorR: hahahahahahah 19:28:26 Getting rid of semicolons just doesn't look right in a C-esque syntax. 19:28:40 pikhq: Not with my revisions 19:28:47 Not that I'm going to be ubercritical of that. ;) 19:28:47 (Note how nicer 'each' calls look) 19:28:56 pikhq: specifically, parens are now optional in some cases 19:29:05 to keep functions as pass-aroundable, you have to do f() for zeroadic ones 19:29:05 but 19:29:07 f a, b 19:29:09 Huh. 19:29:11 works, because it's not ambiguous 19:29:14 and for things like if, for, each 19:29:19 That's actually handy. 19:29:19 you really notice it, a lot less clutter 19:29:33 It's now less C-esque. 19:29:33 *g* 19:29:41 That *is* fairly Ruby-esque, though. 19:29:47 And, IIRC, Perl-esque, as well. 19:29:50 pikhq: Yep. 19:29:55 However, in ruby, 'f' calls f() 19:30:02 so you have to reify functions into Proc objects with a .call method 19:30:05 This sidesteps all that nonsense 19:30:24 Of course, there'll be cases where you want to leave the parens in 19:30:32 But I can't see why you'd want return(ret) when you can do return ret :P 19:30:45 Couldn't you do: 19:30:50 fold 0 + 19:30:50 ? 19:30:56 pikhq: Not without the commas. 19:31:05 Then it'd be ambiguous where arguments start and end. 19:31:10 However, 'fold 0, +' would probably work. 19:31:11 Hmm. 19:31:13 Hmm. 19:31:15 Although 19:31:17 fold 0, + 19:31:18 2 19:31:21 would probably be fold 0, +2 19:31:27 So it'd be ambiguous in some cases. 19:31:31 pikhq: Actually 19:31:33 that'd be invalid 19:31:35 but this wouldn't: 19:31:37 fold 0, (*) 19:32:05 Oh, and (o,...){ o.foo(...) } is such a common case that I think (.foo) should be that 19:32:10 (Gregor said that was good yesterday too, so.) 19:32:50 * GregorR 'll just continue to wait to see what the result is:P 19:33:04 GregorR: Did you look at my pastebin post? :P 19:33:40 Apparently not, where? 19:33:53 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1060676 19:34:35 Semicolons are an operator, using line-based syntax turns this into a true imperative language, which it is not (unless newline is an operator, which is a gross thought) 19:35:05 GregorR: Newlines just add implicit semicolon tokens when it's not ambiguous. 19:35:22 What about my other change, though? 19:35:29 each (y) { 19:35:29 if (x == y), ( 19:35:29 ret = True 19:35:29 ) 19:35:30 } 19:35:32 is a lot better than what it was before, IMO 19:36:13 It's ambiguous in nearly every case you put there, as semicolons differentiate from functional-style expression-is-the-function and imperative-style I-expect-a-return-somewhere. 19:36:21 Well, those parens don't match :P 19:36:29 Those parens ... do match. 19:36:38 Your eyes are borken :P 19:36:43 Oh, so they do X-D 19:36:48 And, it's not ambiguous actually... 19:36:51 That looks like you're calling each(y), and then for god knows what reason, trying to create a function without arguments. 19:36:52 ;) 19:36:55 Because you can unify those two seperate styles, which aren't seperate. 19:37:08 pikhq: Yes, just like: 19:37:11 if (y) { ... } 19:37:19 reads as calling if(y) GNU-style 19:37:25 then doing some stuff in a block 19:37:26 in C 19:37:33 Except that in C, if isn't a function. 19:37:44 ;) 19:37:52 pikhq: And in plof, it is. :P 19:38:02 it's kinda really strange that if in C requires parens 19:38:07 Still, I think my style has less clutter; it's ambiguous in a few cases 19:38:14 but not many enough to outweigh the advantages 19:38:16 In Plof, reading if(foo) {bar} as calling if(foo) is a valid parse. 19:38:20 Ambiguity = bad 19:38:34 GregorR: Swarm of parentheses and semicolons coming to rip your face out = LOVELY 19:38:37 In C, since if isn't a function, there's no fucking way that'll parse right. 19:38:46 tusho: Clearly you don't like LISP :P 19:38:53 GregorR: I do, but it's not elegant in this case 19:39:33 tusho: Inelegance vs ambiguity? I'll take inelegance every time. 19:39:46 GregorR: The ambiguity isn't great. 19:39:51 who actually likes LISP? 19:39:52 :D 19:39:53 tusho: Your ambiguities need to be resolved. 19:39:54 And, uhh, I'd totally take the ambiguity. 19:39:59 GregorR: There aren't many. 19:40:10 Exactly, so the very few there are NEED TO BE RESOLVED 19:40:10 The ones you can see don't have to exist, as far as I can tell 19:40:14 Slereah: File>Go Offline..., you'll be able to play without an internet connection for a few weeks before it needs to reauthenticate 19:40:35 GregorR: I imagine they'll only come up when you're deliberately trying to make code that doesn't look like what it'll do... :P 19:40:49 That's what I spend all my days doing! 19:41:00 GregorR: Yes, and in that case, ambiguity is useful! 19:41:09 QED! 19:42:15 Oh, btw, why is it that you've removed the parens from function calls but not the commas? 19:42:24 GregorR: Because the commas are nice. 19:42:32 And removing the commas WOULD make it ambiguous. 19:42:33 To the MAX. 19:42:39 (Which, btw, are ambiguous because commas act like semicolons, but that requirement is removable) 19:42:59 GregorR: f(ret x) 19:43:00 that's either 19:43:02 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 19:43:03 f(ret, x) or f(ret(x)) 19:43:18 No, that's f ret(x), why else would you use the parens? 19:43:35 Do you want both func arg, arg and func(arg, arg) to work? 19:43:37 GregorR: Sometimes parens are nice, you know. :P 19:43:40 And yes, I do. 19:43:48 Blech 19:43:48 The parens are just implicit when it's not ambiguous. 19:43:54 (And you should always add them if it's confusing...) 19:44:21 If you want functional-language style application, you should disambiguate like so: (func arg, arg) 19:44:33 GregorR: But I don't want functional-language style application. 19:44:42 Precedent in imperative languages: Perl, Ruby, probably a lot more 19:45:11 Ohyeah, Perl has that ugly function application form, I forgot about that >_> 19:45:17 *g* 19:45:29 GregorR: Technically I stole it from Ruby, which does it _unambigiously_ 19:45:33 Though Ruby has some flaws related to it 19:45:39 (Which I'll skim over because my version doesn't) 19:45:49 But anyway, saying that something is good or OK because it's in Perl and/or Ruby is like saying that murder is OK because Americans do it. 19:46:22 GregorR: Well, I like Perl and Ruby so I'll disagree :P But yes, they have crazy things. 19:46:24 Even so. 19:46:36 using 'each' was a nightmare of ()()(){}{}) without my change. 19:46:47 as for 'for', well let me just say that 19:46:47 for var i = 0, i < size(), i = i + 1, ( 19:46:48 this[i] = x this[i] 19:46:48 ) 19:46:51 is a lot better IMO 19:47:56 * GregorR still finds that form kind of gross, but he'll have to mull it over. 19:48:09 (That is, no-parens, with-comma) 19:48:13 GregorR: It'll probably require a lot of thinking, but I'm pretty sure it can be parsed quite easily 19:48:25 (That being said, you're right that it helps with intrinsic-imitators) 19:48:32 Oh, and it helps when you're writing a DSL (although that kind of stuff is more liked by the Ruby people...) 19:48:35 has_many "users" 19:48:36 vs 19:48:38 has_many("users") 19:49:21 * GregorR goes to skooll 19:49:40 GregorR: Oh, and one more thing to mull over about it - 19:49:50 I'm pretty sure you can do it almost entirely in the lexer. 19:50:07 Which is nicer than polluting the parser. 19:50:09 Anyway, bye :) 19:54:03 There is no distinction between the lexer and parser in the runtime parser. 19:55:08 GregorR: Yes, well. :-P 19:55:14 It's nice IN THEORY 19:57:28 -!- snova has joined. 19:58:16 -!- snova has left (?). 20:10:30 what happened with EsoAPI? 20:11:32 it died 20:11:35 it's not an interesting idea 20:11:43 (obligatory meme: PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX) 20:24:10 tusho: Any idea what the status is on PSOX? 20:24:53 pikhq: Dead dead dead dead dead dead dead! 20:24:58 Even Sgeo has started to admit it. 20:24:59 ox 20:25:01 er 20:25:02 ok? 20:25:03 Ah. 20:25:03 *ox 20:25:05 why did I say ox 20:25:07 stupid keyboard 20:25:22 *pees on socks* 20:25:49 Dunno. 20:26:46 pikhq: Heh. 20:26:48 Last commit 4 months ago. 20:26:50 Deeeeeeeeeeeeeed 20:26:58 Sounds like PEBBLE. 20:26:58 He hasn't committed since the day I was added. 20:27:07 Well, except that PEBBLE is still fairly useful. 20:27:09 Err, wait. 20:27:11 A few days ago. 20:27:18 Er 20:27:19 I mean 20:27:21 a few days after I was added 20:27:23 was his last commi 20:27:25 t 20:27:37 pikhq: Oh, and one of his last commits was adding an easter egg. 20:27:39 Srsly. 20:27:42 Argh. 20:27:42 http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/changeset/95 20:27:49 Read and weep. 20:28:26 BTW, anyone wanting to develop on PEBBLE: lemme know what you're doing with it. I like hearing that my toys are being used by others. :p 20:28:47 what is PEBBLE? 20:29:18 The Practical Esoteric Brainfuck-Based Language, Eh? 20:29:23 http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pebble.php 20:34:46 -!- cherez1 has joined. 20:35:49 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:36:33 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:36:43 -!- cherez1 has quit (Client Quit). 20:36:54 -!- cherez has joined. 21:00:18 -!- pikhq has left (?). 21:01:44 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:06:16 does anyone know how you set a background color in a svg image? 21:25:10 -!- RedDak has joined. 21:56:33 -!- AnMaster has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:56:33 -!- Ilari has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:56:33 -!- GregorR has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:56:50 -!- GregorR has joined. 21:56:50 -!- AnMaster has joined. 21:56:50 -!- Ilari has joined. 22:08:49 -!- cherez1 has joined. 22:09:46 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:30:48 -!- moozilla has joined. 22:36:23 -!- jamesstanley has changed nick to Rory_the_poop. 22:40:03 anyone want to check out my esolang? 22:40:05 http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/27/428255/esoteric.txt 22:41:11 -!- Rory_the_poop has changed nick to jamesstanley. 22:41:23 fuck man i'm haf? 22:51:48 back 22:52:00 and yeah, lament++ 22:52:19 jamesstanley: fuck man i'm haf? 22:52:39 Huh? 22:53:01 jamesstanley: look at the bottom of your spec 22:53:25 My spec? 22:53:31 oh 22:53:35 sorry about the nick change thing 22:53:40 i forgot i was in this channel as well 22:53:46 og 22:53:49 you're not moozilla 22:53:52 *oh 22:53:54 lol 22:53:56 sorry 22:54:01 moozilla: fuck man i'm haf? 22:54:05 hmm 22:54:07 realname=kuonet 22:54:09 that's AnMaster's domain 22:54:10 Am I off the hook? 22:54:10 i think? 22:54:13 ;) 22:54:14 yes 22:54:15 :) 22:54:17 jamesstanley: no! get back here! 22:54:18 :P 22:55:11 tusho, yes kuonet is an irc server too why? 22:55:19 AnMaster: just odd 22:55:20 :P 22:55:24 anyway 22:55:28 moozilla: what is fuck man i'm haf. 22:55:38 i wrote that when i was on drugs 22:55:40 >_> 22:55:43 i could guess 22:55:48 tusho, a bit odd I agree to have it as realname 22:55:56 indeed quite odd 22:55:59 -!- tusho has set topic: fuck man i'm haf | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 22:56:00 i don't even know how that got there 22:56:04 now we can all be haf 22:56:06 haha 22:56:15 so what do you think of the language 22:56:36 hah 22:56:38 did you write the rest of the spec on drugs too 22:56:41 moozilla, remove that thing indeed 22:56:43 because it's very hard to read 22:56:50 tusho tbh, about half of it 22:56:57 i will remove that though 22:56:58 tusho, hah 22:57:00 i can't find the intelligable half 22:57:01 :P 22:57:15 paragraphs, man :p 22:57:29 it kind of makes sense though 22:57:31 pretty cool 22:57:35 tusho, anyway he mentioned this language there and I recommended him to visit this channel 22:57:41 I only glanced at the top bit 22:57:43 of the specs 22:57:56 but seemed "not too stupid" to me 22:58:02 seems interseting 22:58:10 yes after reading it more I agree 22:58:10 oh well it was just my notes 22:58:15 then i decided to share 22:58:19 moozilla, develop it more :) 22:58:21 it is worth it 22:58:27 in response to your comment in #maximilian, i like brainloller because of the pretty pictures ;) 22:58:34 AnMaster im planning on rewritting the interpreter tonight 22:58:38 don't develop it more on drugs, though, i don't think that would improve the language 22:58:46 tusho, agree 22:58:48 tusho i own at coding on drugs 22:58:48 you'd probably replace the spec with 'fuck man i'm haf' 22:58:50 :P 22:58:55 moozilla: ... but not speccing, perhaps 22:58:55 but if you say so 22:58:59 hahah 22:58:59 good point 22:59:19 so ill flesh out the spec 22:59:20 then code 22:59:26 yes seems nice 22:59:31 spell check too I think 22:59:38 heh :P 22:59:40 i wrote it in notepad 22:59:44 what do you expect 22:59:48 * AnMaster cringes 22:59:50 emacs :) 22:59:54 or some other editor 22:59:58 just not notepat 23:00:00 i'd be pissed if notepad had a spell checker 23:00:01 notepad* 23:00:05 why? 23:00:07 i use it for its simplicity 23:00:18 ED! 23:00:20 ED IS SIMPLE! 23:00:22 tusho, hah! 23:00:23 ED IS THE STANDARD EDITOR! 23:00:28 i dont even know what ED is 23:00:30 >_> 23:00:35 VITOR OR EMACSTOR? THOSE AREN'T EVEN WORDS! 23:00:36 tusho, you are talking to a windows user 23:00:37 :/ 23:00:42 ED IS AN EDITOR! ED IS THE STANDARD TEXT EDITOR! 23:00:42 ? 23:00:52 tusho, moozilla use windows 23:00:56 he don't know ed(1) 23:01:01 AnMaster: EDLIN! 23:01:08 i know a little vi 23:01:09 EDLINE IS SIMPLE! 23:01:09 moozilla, ed is one of the oldest and smallest editors on *nix 23:01:09 thats it 23:01:15 EDLIN IS THE STANDARD EDLINITOR! 23:01:20 VITOR OR EMACSTOR? THOSE AREN'T EVEN WORDS! 23:01:20 it sounds like my kind of editor 23:01:26 when i switch to linux i will check it out 23:01:28 EDLIN IS AN EDLINITOR! EDLIN IS THE STANDARD TEXT EDITOR! 23:01:29 ? 23:01:40 moozilla, really? it is weird 23:01:41 moozilla: it's line-based 23:01:48 and you type commands in it to editor 23:01:49 moozilla, line based indeed 23:01:52 (command-line) 23:01:54 oh 23:01:56 nvm then 23:01:57 and its only error reporting is: ? 23:01:59 ? 23:02:00 i just want to type 23:02:02 ? 23:02:02 and type 23:02:07 ?! 23:02:09 lament: 'fuck man i'm haf' is the result of drugs, apparently 23:02:14 mystery solved! 23:02:17 ah 23:02:18 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:02:25 hello pikhq! we're talking about drugs 23:02:27 except not really 23:02:40 hah 23:02:42 tusho, AnMaster if you're interested in the current interpretter i'll upload it 23:02:48 sure 23:02:49 but its in C# 23:02:50 what lang? 23:02:52 ah 23:02:54 that's okay 23:02:54 mono 23:02:55 :P 23:02:58 kk 23:02:59 C#, the language of the future 23:03:08 if C# improves long enough, it will become D 23:03:29 C#? 23:03:33 * pikhq vomits 23:03:37 lament: and then die like D? 23:03:41 pikhq: Hey, it has functional programming shizz. 23:03:44 That's good. 23:03:57 tusho: D is not dead. 23:04:00 moozilla, I do have mono 23:04:02 C# probably has the highest quality*popularity coefficient 23:04:05 if it runs under that 23:04:12 lament, um? 23:04:12 it should run under mono 23:04:14 pikhq: But it's not exactly getting more popular :P 23:04:14 i think 23:04:20 lament, what does that mean exactly for C? 23:04:24 ohh 23:04:27 well 23:04:27 C got a high in quality at least 23:04:30 And just because something has functional programming does not make it *good*. 23:04:33 C is wonderful but 23:04:41 for most things, C# is much better 23:04:41 lament, but what? 23:04:43 pikhq: No, but their integration of it is nice. 23:04:47 lament, not really 23:05:04 C is very verbose for some very basic tasks 23:05:08 D would be better than C for most things except where you need high performance or low level 23:05:09 C doesn't even have foreach loops 23:05:20 lament, C is the language of choice for stuff like kernels 23:05:22 lament: note - anmaster refused to use python because you can't write a kernel in it 23:05:25 AnMaster: absolutely 23:05:27 AnMaster: i agree 23:05:28 and i love c 23:05:31 sure you can do kernels in C++ or D 23:05:31 before you start trying to argue your point.. 23:05:33 C# is great for rapid prototyping 23:05:34 but... 23:05:35 but like i said, for most things, C# is much better 23:05:41 thats why i made my interpreter in it 23:05:42 -!- jix has joined. 23:05:43 that's because most things aren't kernels 23:06:01 moozilla: For rapid prototyping, use a scripting language. ;) 23:06:01 lament, I would prefer D really, except it is a pain to install and then install tango correclty 23:06:03 correctly* 23:06:13 pikhq: i use javascript usually :P 23:06:20 I don't want to have to install Mono to use a program; that's just a ridiculously large runtime. 23:06:29 dont worry 23:06:29 well python should be great for that 23:06:31 pikhq: That's why you have Mono installed anyway... 23:06:34 im porting it to haskell tonight 23:06:38 and yes I think python is great once you add braces 23:06:39 haskell, cool 23:06:43 i cant stand python 23:06:44 lol@AnMaster 23:06:47 tusho: Ugh. 23:06:47 I can't stand simple syntax 23:06:49 tusho, iirc I saw some m4 script that allowed braces in python :P 23:06:51 I neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed my delimiting braces 23:06:53 :'( 23:06:54 yeah, i hate python, its' too readable 23:06:54 yes it is true 23:06:54 I feel dirty just for installing Boost. 23:06:58 lament: totally 23:07:11 python makes me feel like being a programmer is too easy 23:07:15 it should be HARD! dammit, HARD! 23:07:19 pikhq, ewww 23:07:31 lament, yes that is called job security 23:07:32 :) 23:07:49 lament: python is used by homosexual masochists, obviously! 23:07:53 OH, MAKE ME INDENT THAT CODE, GUDIO 23:07:57 yep 23:08:01 AnMaster: I have the same thoughts on Mono. 23:08:04 that's really the spirit of the language 23:08:08 lol its other things about python that turned me off 23:08:10 pikhq, yes true 23:08:16 pikhq, however I do have both :( 23:08:21 because apps I use need them 23:08:22 it just was hard to leap into 23:08:35 the spirit of python is: there's one way to do it - guido's way, and if you don't like it, on your knees bitch 23:08:49 lol 23:09:01 perl then, that is the freedom of the heavens? 23:09:03 lament: and guido's way will involve going on your knees anyway, because it's for masochists 23:09:09 yep 23:09:11 hence the lack of braces 23:09:18 well 23:09:18 AnMaster: perl is for anarchists who are just generally in an orgy with everyone all the time 23:09:18 well from now on im coding only in brainfuck 23:09:22 and the lack of explicit references 23:09:27 I'm a Tcler, myself. The spirit of Tcl is: yes, Tcl supports that feature, though you may have to do some radical language modification at runtime. ;p 23:09:31 im gonna code my interpreter in brainfuck :P 23:09:32 *I saw an m4 script that added braces to python* 23:09:35 can't find the url 23:09:37 lament, ^ 23:09:38 brb 23:09:47 AnMaster: I've heard of an M4 script that added objects to C. 23:09:49 AnMaster: anybody who wants to add braces to python is a complete idiot 23:09:56 Ask Gregor for the link; he wrote it. 23:09:59 pikhq, yes didn't GregorR make that one? 23:10:00 lament: there's a python _encoding_ that makes it do braces 23:10:05 that hijacks the # encoding: foo line 23:10:08 it's evil but fun 23:10:09 (yes, it's a joke) 23:10:11 AnMaster: I said as much. 23:10:15 tusho, ooh nice 23:10:20 pikhq, why? 23:10:24 Dunno. 23:10:26 AnMaster: you'd actually use it, though 23:10:28 pikhq, objects in c would be fun with m4 23:10:29 see, python users go, 'hahaha, nice one' 23:10:31 tusho: there's also a python extension called iirc 'shootfoot' that gives you direct memory access 23:10:39 tusho, no I wouldn't 23:10:42 AnMaster: case in point: 23:10:45 >>> from __future__ import braces 23:10:45 File "", line 1 23:10:45 SyntaxError: not a chance 23:10:56 tusho, I know about that easter egg 23:11:27 braces are a historical accident. If you get too attached to historical accidents, that means You're Old. 23:11:38 lament, now just make a compiler for python :D 23:11:44 "ah, braces, just like in the good old days" 23:11:46 moozilla: When coding in C#, just keep in mind: in the esolang community, C# *is* an esolang. And not one of the ones we're fond of. 23:11:47 * AnMaster runs from tusho 23:11:52 :p 23:11:59 pikhq: err 23:12:02 AnMaster: why? 23:12:03 (I, at least, hold C# in the same regard as LOLCODE) 23:12:04 at least two people here like bracse 23:12:08 *braces 23:12:09 err 23:12:11 C# 23:12:14 damn multithreaded convos 23:12:16 lament, to write a kernel in python *ducks* 23:12:21 pikhq: C# is really quite wonderful 23:12:25 but yeah, I think, pikhq, you mean 'in the pikhq community' 23:12:30 Fine, fine. 23:12:36 because I respect C# and think it's quite a good language, and lament does too 23:12:42 AnMaster isn't _too_ against it :P 23:12:43 pikhq: they got lambdas and map/filter and some type inference 23:12:44 lament: Sure, if you like a standard library larger than you can hold in your head. 23:12:52 yes the syntax of C# is quite nice 23:12:56 however the runtime is horrible 23:13:00 pikhq: yes, of course i like it 23:13:01 both .NET and mono 23:13:02 yes .NET sucks 23:13:04 I agree 23:13:07 pikhq: i don't want to reinvent any wheels 23:13:08 tusho, both of them sucks 23:13:09 (not that, say, C++ is much better about that) 23:13:19 GREGOR HATE SHOE SHOPPING 23:13:27 pikhq: i don't need to hold it in my hand, there's MSDN for that 23:13:30 GregorR: And C#? :P 23:13:32 *head 23:13:34 THAT TOO 23:13:34 GregorR, link to m4 macro for object orientated C? 23:13:34 lament: Head. 23:13:40 Not hand. 23:13:42 AnMaster: Yeahyeahyeah, gimme a sec. 23:13:43 pikhq: head. I don't need that either. 23:13:44 Erm. 23:13:45 GregorR, and: was it serious? 23:13:46 lament: However. Obj-C > C#. Agreed? 23:13:50 tusho: No. 23:13:53 GregorR, should I use it, or was it a joke? 23:13:58 lament: Well, if it had a standard library/ 23:13:59 ObjC is kind of a joke 23:14:01 lament: Right? 23:14:04 AnMaster: It was somewhere in between serious and a joke ... 23:14:08 it does have a standard library, it's called cocoa 23:14:12 AnMaster: If you want to use it, I would recommend improving it a bit first. 23:14:12 lament: Yes but. 23:14:16 GregorR, ah 23:14:19 Obj-C isn't a joke :'( 23:14:21 GregorR, well I know some m4 23:14:25 tusho, sadly that is true 23:14:31 it is a tragedy 23:14:36 moozilla, well the link? did I miss it? 23:14:42 tusho: C# is an actual programming language. ObjC is a completely alien object system tacked onto C in a fairly ugly fashion. 23:14:51 lament: >:( 23:14:53 For all those backing C#: I also hate Java. 23:14:54 I DISLIKE YOU 23:15:05 So, anything C# has in common with Java, I despise. 23:15:23 Meaning: I just fucking hate C#. 23:15:26 tusho: even Java has generics nowadays 23:15:32 tusho: ObjC, not a chance 23:15:40 lament: Obj-C is a dynamic language. 23:15:50 if i want a dynamic language 23:15:56 i'll pick python over objc every time 23:16:02 _shrug_ 23:16:10 objc is incredibly verbose and stupid 23:16:20 python is amazingly concise and powerful 23:16:50 writing in objc involves a lot of writing stuff twice or even more 23:17:54 AnMaster: http://codu.org/m4c-2008-07-02.tar.bz2 23:18:01 consider: this is how you do string concatenation in objc/cocoa 23:18:07 GregorR, thanks! 23:18:09 [fooString stringByAppendingString: barString] 23:18:26 lament: yes, that's cocoa 23:18:34 cocoa/nextstep/gnustep 23:18:34 cocoa is fairly retarded in its verbosity. 23:18:37 lament: yes 23:18:41 but Obj-C itself 23:18:44 there's no alternative 23:18:46 with a nice standard library... 23:18:50 lament: i know there isn't 23:18:53 but, if there was 23:18:55 then it'd be very nice 23:18:56 and even if there was 23:18:58 python would still win 23:19:03 because in python it's fooString + barString 23:19:08 and in objc you can't have that 23:19:20 lament: [fooString concat: barString] 23:19:21 not that bad 23:19:50 Yay, www.www.extra-www.org is mentioned on no-www.org 8-D 23:19:53 oh, and how about 23:19:55 array access 23:20:00 GregorR: wot, really? 23:20:04 GregorR: that site hasn't been updated for like years 23:20:05 foo[bar]? 23:20:05 how do you access the last element of an array in cocoa? 23:20:15 GregorR, where? 23:20:26 [foo objectAtIndex:[foo length] - 1] 23:20:30 AnMaster: the news section 23:20:31 in python: foo[-1] 23:20:32 AnMaster: ... the very topmost post ... 23:20:37 ahaa 23:20:39 conclusion: objc just fucking sucks 23:21:04 In C: foo[sizeof(foo) - 1] or foo[size_t_of_foo_here - 1]. ;) 23:21:05 oh, sorry 23:21:09 GregorR: where have you spreaded this thing :P 23:21:12 Conclusion: I <3 C. 23:21:14 :p 23:21:17 actually, in cocoa, it's [foo lastObject] 23:21:26 it's a special case 23:21:33 which is even more retarded 23:21:48 because you need to memorize an extra method where in python there is no need for one 23:22:00 In Tcl? Good luck; arrays are associative arrays. 23:22:51 in python: foo[-1] 23:22:53 don't do that 23:23:00 that would be another object in C 23:23:03 you CONFUSE ME 23:23:05 :( 23:23:09 GregorR: where did you post this :P 23:23:13 AnMaster: C is not Python 23:23:28 tusho: basically almost all i like about objective C is that it's C :) 23:23:33 AnMaster: No, it wouldn't. It would be undefined behavior. ;) 23:23:37 GregorR: awesome :D 23:24:20 GregorR, btw I'm in no-www's B class iird 23:24:21 iirc* 23:24:33 my www redirects to non-www one 23:26:26 GregorR, and your validator is slow 23:26:30 GregorR: i love it how they link to you as http://extra-www.org 23:27:30 lament: Note that I link them as www.www.no-www.org :) 23:27:31 GregorR: dude, I can't access http://www.www.www.extra-www.org/ without a redirect 23:27:38 why can't we use grossly excessive amounts of wwww. 23:27:39 *www. 23:27:44 lol 23:27:58 tusho: Honestly, it's because I don't have direct access to the host system, so I can't set up arbitrary vhosts. 23:28:18 http://www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.extra-www.org.ogr.org.org.org.org.org.org/ 23:28:23 yes, ogr 23:28:28 it's spellign crocecitng 23:28:38 tusho: Once you own org.org, you may as well put ogr.org... under it :P 23:29:03 i'm all for deprecating www 23:29:15 omg, someone owns org.org 23:29:19 but a far more useful thing would be to eliminate TLDs 23:29:21 sweet 23:29:27 lament: well, they effectively did 23:29:31 now that you can buy tlds... 23:29:35 http://.foo/ 23:29:40 you can? That went through? 23:29:57 lament: yep 23:30:01 it costs a couple hundred thousand 23:30:04 ouch 23:30:05 but yay, now icann fucked up the internet 23:30:06 what fun 23:30:08 that's terrible 23:30:12 i just love corporate branding tlds 23:30:15 they're awesome 23:30:22 i guess it's not that bad 23:30:22 I'm on an alternate DNS root. Glee. 23:30:25 because nobody will buy those domains 23:30:28 lament: i want http://fuck.icann/ 23:30:31 so it's as if they never existed 23:30:32 and apparently ebay etc are considering it 23:31:04 anyway, GregorR wants libc6.so when somalia gets itself a government 23:31:06 I want so.and.so 23:32:03 oh, and the wordpress guy has ma.tt 23:32:07 how did he get that? 23:32:13 anyway, GregorR wants libc6.so when somalia gets itself a government 23:32:14 yay 23:32:40 tusho, in Sweden .nu is popular 23:32:44 yes 23:32:47 it means 'new' right? 23:32:48 or something 23:32:50 because nu is Swedish for now 23:32:58 new would be ny 23:33:00 right 23:33:19 you know, my world was shattered when i found out you couldn't get second-level .uk domains 23:33:25 tusho, oh? 23:33:28 I wanted xx.uk where xx is two letters 23:33:32 so i could have all the domains I ever wanted.. 23:33:34 um you can't 23:33:37 i know 23:33:42 "you know, my world was shattered when i found out you couldn't get second-level .uk domains" 23:33:49 it's like co.uk and such 23:33:57 AnMaster: YES THAT'S WHY I SAID IT 23:33:58 JEEZ 23:33:59 I think you need some such for private persons too 23:33:59 * GregorR reappears. 23:34:08 tusho, yes but I like the UK systems 23:34:09 tusho, AnMaster: Yes, I've stated that before, except libc.so, not libc6.so 23:34:10 way better 23:34:23 AnMaster: no, because everyone just uses .co.uk or .com 23:34:35 tusho, what does private persons use? 23:34:38 not .co.uk? 23:34:44 AnMaster: .co.uk 23:34:49 there is .me.uk but about 3 people use it 23:34:50 wtd 23:34:51 (kind of like .name) 23:34:51 wtf* 23:34:54 aha 23:35:01 AnMaster: and .com is for commercial stuff 23:35:02 tusho, I seen .info used too 23:35:05 does anyone respect that? 23:35:05 no 23:35:11 and .info is just a spam trap 23:35:15 Glee. OpenNIC. 23:35:15 choosemyhat.com is totally a commercial entity. 23:35:18 every website on .info ought to move 23:35:20 tusho, how so? 23:35:30 why is it a spam trap? 23:35:31 AnMaster: it's filled with viagra and google adspam 23:35:34 loads of people won't click .info 23:35:34 aha 23:35:36 * pikhq needs to get a site on .geek 23:35:38 and quite a few sites block .info referers 23:35:45 pikhq, opendns? 23:35:50 * pikhq nods 23:35:52 pikhq: I prefer domains people can reach 23:35:56 Bah. 23:36:00 well I don't use opendns 23:36:06 I use the normal dns root 23:36:22 .info domains cost like 3$ less 23:36:25 The normal DNS root pisses me off these days. 23:36:37 pikhq, oh? 23:36:57 pikhq, it is what the majority of the world's population use 23:37:08 moozilla: because they're unvaluable because of the spam 23:37:12 here's the interpreter: http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/27/428255/interpreter.rar 23:37:21 sorry took so long 23:37:25 moozilla, .rar.... 23:37:32 use unrar 23:37:33 :P 23:37:41 * AnMaster strangles moozilla instead 23:37:45 k 23:37:48 AnMaster: And it's getting fairly terrible. 23:37:50 but yes 23:37:59 moozilla, I could use unrar I guess 23:38:01 but it sucks 23:38:24 http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/27/428255/interpreter.zip 23:38:28 moozilla, in the future know that I prefer .tar.bz2 23:38:31 :) 23:38:33 zip is ok too 23:38:39 rar compresses better, though 23:38:43 i dont use 7zip or whatever 23:38:50 i like winrar 23:39:01 lament, well there is .tar.lzma too 23:39:03 AnMaster: BTW, OpenNIC also mirrors the standard ICANN TLDs. 23:39:10 rar = giant PITA on everything that isn't Windows. 23:39:11 pikhq, they may do 23:39:15 but I don't trust them 23:39:25 pikhq, also why don't you like the normal dns root 23:39:28 what's OpenNIC 23:39:31 GregorR: unrar works just fine for me. 23:39:39 *cough* 23:39:46 Not been paying attention in recent years? 23:39:54 pikhq, well I know about this new tld crap 23:39:58 but apart from that? 23:40:26 pikhq, ? 23:40:26 They've also jiggered the domain registration regulations specifically to allow domain camping. 23:40:40 pikhq, what is domain camping? 23:40:41 pikhq: lol, AnMaster trusts icann more than a non-profit 23:40:46 *lol* *lol* *lol* *lol* 23:40:51 tusho, I don't trust either 23:41:05 Buying a domain and just sitting on it, waiting for the highest bidder. 23:41:11 ah 23:41:27 i should start doing that 23:41:32 sounds like an easy way to make money 23:41:52 Among other things, domain campers can do a 'taste testing' of a domain, picking it up, waiting a week, and then asking for a refund now. 23:41:55 it is, that's why all the good ones are already bought 23:42:01 (and do that forever, actually) 23:42:23 when I was young and naive I thought i'd be able to get syntax-error.com 23:42:48 And, of course, they keep on creating pointless TLDs. 23:44:41 I prefer .org myself 23:45:01 can't write .orgasm without. org 23:45:02 i like .com 23:45:09 its easiest to remember 23:45:18 with org sites im like "fuck was it .org or .net" 23:45:19 um 23:45:33 .net is for network related stuff 23:45:35 http://asm.org/ 23:45:36 well was originally 23:45:56 you know the best bit? 23:46:00 if asm.org releases a java lib 23:46:05 they'll have to call it org.asm.stuff 23:46:05 oh? 23:46:10 tusho, haha 23:46:12 by the java package naming standards 23:46:16 GREGOR HATE SHOE SHOPPING ARGH 23:46:21 GregorR: Kittens 23:46:28 lolol 23:46:31 at org.asm 23:46:34 I've narrowed down the shoes I can wear to: non-leather, non-synthetic-leather, non-green (in the literal sense) shoes. 23:47:04 GregorR: choosemyshoes.com 23:47:14 problem solved 23:47:19 GregorR, why not leather? 23:47:35 I'm allergic to chromium, which is used to tan virtually all leather. 23:47:43 And, as I learned quite painfully, used to tan synthetic leather too. 23:47:53 GregorR, what about trainers or whatever they are called in English? 23:47:57 GregorR: choosemyshoes.com 23:48:02 AnMaster: Uh, canvas shoes? 23:48:06 GregorR, maybe 23:48:09 that could work 23:48:17 AnMaster: They usually have some supporting leather or stylistic leather in them. 23:48:32 AnMaster: (In my experience) 23:48:36 GregorR, what did you have before then? 23:48:39 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 23:49:02 AnMaster: I lucked out on a pair of totally-synthetic-leather-free vegan shoes, and before that there was one company that sold non-chromium-tanned leather shoes. 23:49:14 AnMaster: And before that I had severe dermatitis of the foot for ten years. 23:49:15 GregorR, hm 23:49:19 GregorR: Are you a vegan? :-P 23:49:38 GregorR, well contact a foot doctor and ask if they know of some good place to buy 23:49:39 tusho: No, and I try to make sure I eat a ham sandwich while I buy vegan shoes so that nobody thinks otherwise. 23:49:46 GregorR: Hahahahaha. 23:49:49 AnMaster: Where do you think I learned of my allergy in the first place? 23:49:56 GregorR, yes of course 23:49:57 I get that 23:50:02 GregorR, so ask them 23:50:02 AnMaster: My dermatologist's response was, paraphrasing, "you're screwed" 23:50:13 GregorR, damn 23:50:29 GregorR, wooden? 23:50:31 Believe me, I've had this for years, it's just that there's nowhere I can /consistently/ find chromium-free shoes. 23:50:34 AnMaster: Wooden would work :P 23:50:41 AnMaster: Tough to find wooden shoes in Portland, OR though :P 23:51:04 GregorR, guess so 23:51:39 GregorR, go on using old pair? 23:51:53 GregorR, and if you find any: buy a stock 23:51:56 for the future 23:52:00 maybe 3 or 4 pairs 23:52:02 -!- timotiis has quit (Connection timed out). 23:52:12 -!- AAA_AAA has changed nick to Quendus. 23:52:13 GregorR, also what country is that? 23:52:26 I'd guess US or Australia 23:52:29 AnMaster: 1) My shoes have holes in them :P, 2) I really should've thought to buy a stock in the first place, 3) US. 23:53:03 GregorR, get them repaired? 23:53:08 you know, craftmen 23:53:14 skomakare in Swedish 23:53:18 don't know English word 23:53:34 The English word is "we don't repair our shoes" :P 23:53:39 shoemaker? 23:53:45 But in reality, they're not very good shoes, I'd love to replace them. 23:53:49 AnMaster: shoemaker? 23:53:54 ah that's it 23:53:59 :P 2008-07-03: 00:13:18 -!- Corun has joined. 00:26:45 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:17:17 -!- tusho has quit. 02:08:12 -!- cherez1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:12:20 -!- cherez has joined. 02:26:14 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 02:48:21 -!- djgera has joined. 02:50:06 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 02:50:17 hey guys, what are people up to this evening? 02:58:27 Ah, sitting around waiting for something interesting to happen. Me too. 02:58:37 Indeed. 02:58:41 pikhq: done anything with Def-BF yet? 02:59:09 No. 02:59:21 anything about the spec you'd like clarified? 02:59:29 I've been busy muttering about how MST's "intro to" courses suck. 02:59:36 No, not at all; it's a fairly grokkable spec. 02:59:47 hm 03:19:37 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 03:47:27 I was bored, so I wrote a test program in high-level def-bf: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215053139.html 03:47:57 foreach/while loops ended up being very nice and clean looking 03:50:04 I agree. 03:50:13 ah christ, I forgot colons after my define statements: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215053310.html 03:50:16 The whole thing is ridiculously simple to understand. 03:50:21 can't even code in my own languages. :/ 03:50:41 yeah, I'm just insanely pleased with how nicely it comes together 03:51:52 what's interesting is that <> seem to become largely relegated to array manipulation 03:52:14 Insanely, if I write that so that it uses the C calling interface, then the C interface will be trivial. 03:52:38 that'll be pretty badass 03:52:50 To use printf: 03:53:12 var: string "Hello, world!\n\0" 03:53:15 printf[string] 03:53:29 yep 03:53:52 Wait, that's already null terminated, isn't it? 03:54:07 pikhq: uh, might be? 03:54:11 Anyways, that's really fucking cool. 03:54:17 define: print[a][ a [.>];// display a null-terminated string 03:54:17 do you think there's a need for ascii/asciiz? 03:54:27 ]That seems to imply that it's null terminated already. 03:54:44 there are a few things that might be inefficient without post-optimization, but it shouldn't be too much worse speed-wise than regular compiled BF 03:54:57 No; it seems like C gets along just fine without. 03:55:00 pikhq: good point 03:55:25 Hm. what do you think would be more useful in general? 03:57:29 Null termination. 03:57:30 seems like almost every time someone wants to iterate over array elements or characters in a string they'd want a null to easily break out of the loop anyway, so null-terminated seems good 03:57:44 it's not like we're shooting for mega space-efficiency, anyway 03:57:57 It's much, much nicer in Brainfuck than even in C. . . 03:58:12 And even in C, null termination is fairly handy for a few algorithms. 03:58:40 Though it'd be nice if C strings were size-encoded, hell: making a really simple C calling interface is a good idea in my book. 03:59:03 agreed 03:59:44 do you think there's a need for more than numbers->numbers quoted strings->null-terminated character sequence as far as ? is concerned? 04:01:40 I think you can make custom control structures for this language ridiculously cleanly- I haven't even touched the code pointers yet. 04:03:39 and it now occurs to me that there's a need for a convenient way to specify said pointers. I think it should be done as "label: name", and then the name can be used as a variable. 04:08:18 here's a trivial example: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215054391.html 04:08:39 you can extend this to something like a "while a>x" loop pretty easily 04:09:43 I think the "label: name" part is handy. 04:10:13 yeah, otherwise %/: are really crippled in high-level mode 04:10:27 Especially since this language seems to be, as far as hardware interfacing goes, somewhere between C and assembly. 04:10:40 yeah, I think it strikes a good balance 04:11:03 and it achieves a weird kind of LISP-esque elegance somehow 04:12:08 By just being so damned simple. 04:12:36 I should also note that it makes a lot of sense to make it possible to have literals in function calls and return statements, as this is not explicitly said in the spec 04:12:40 My favorite part is that, if you *really* wanted to, you could have this thing write arbitrary pre-assembled code into memory. :p 04:12:47 mmm. :) 04:13:01 -!- djgera has quit. 04:13:09 and you might even be able to use label: to then call it trivially depending on how the semantics work 04:13:11 And thereby forgo all actual assembly files. 04:13:21 ooh, goosebumps 04:13:33 Though I, personally, wouldn't use it. 04:13:35 this will be a grand systems programming language 04:14:03 Instead, I'd just do foreign_assembly_call%. 04:14:31 And let the linker handle the details of figuring out where the fuck that foreign assembly call is supposed to come from. 04:14:52 Indeed, this is a *perfect* esoteric systems programming language. 04:14:56 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:15:49 perhaps having a working compiler and some basic libraries will encourage yet another attempt at creating an esoteric OS from scratch? 04:16:39 -!- cherez has joined. 04:16:39 I plan on making said esoteric OS. 04:16:49 neato 04:16:52 I'll get on the compiler this weekend. 04:16:56 (and possibly finish) 04:17:07 I need to finish my Autotools kick, though. ;) 04:17:16 I'll write some bits and pieces for the std libs when I have free time 04:17:20 Cool. 04:17:40 I'm thinking stdio, stdmath and stdctrl are the main ones to shoot for 04:17:51 I agree. 04:17:55 maybe stdstring and stdarray as well for more complex stuff 04:18:07 I do have to wonder, however. . . 04:18:14 How am I going to implement '.'? 04:18:32 mm. probably a BIOS call at some level? 04:18:46 But what if we go into 32-bit mode? 04:19:00 then it'll probably get rather esoteric 04:19:05 lol 04:19:11 I know. . . 04:19:52 Are you shooting for making this self-hosting eventually? 04:19:57 I'll have '.' call a single function, which shall be my support library for the language. ;) 04:20:00 Yeah. 04:20:28 Said single function could equally well be written in Def-BF as in assembly. . . 04:20:47 yeah, with %/: and #/; it'll be a LOT easier than trying to make PEBBLE self-hosting 04:21:00 PEBBLE is simple not meant to self-host. 04:21:04 PEBBLE is quite powerful but data structures are still a bitch 04:21:05 s/simple/simply/ 04:21:28 I'm just saying that because we've discussed it passingly in the past 04:21:28 Whereas, in Def-BF, it's no harder than writing this in assembly. 04:21:48 Except that it's mildly quirky assembly, of course. 04:21:56 naturally 04:22:23 I like to think of it as a very clean RISC that pretends registers don't exist 04:22:33 Sounds about right. 04:25:06 oh, found another minor typo- there is no ; necessary after the "return a" in the while loop example. My curly-bracket reflexes are biting me. The program ought to compile right anyway, though. 04:28:03 After all, the ; won't ever be executed. 04:30:24 yup 04:30:36 still might trip somebody up if used as an example 04:30:42 True. 04:33:09 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:34:55 * pikhq should sleep. 04:34:57 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 04:35:01 well, good night- I've gotta turn in myself 04:35:26 -!- cherez has joined. 04:44:46 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:44:51 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 05:16:11 -!- jamesstanley has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:16:12 -!- Deewiant has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:17:31 -!- jamesstanley has joined. 05:17:31 -!- Deewiant has joined. 05:17:42 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:17:55 -!- Deewiant has joined. 05:21:46 -!- jamesstanley has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:24:51 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:28:59 -!- jamesstanley has joined. 05:30:44 -!- GreaseMonkey has changed nick to DarkPants. 06:04:41 -!- cherez has left (?). 06:07:15 Zipped files inside zipped files make me a sad panda. 06:22:47 Holy shit 06:22:56 Adobe Reader is 190 Mo? 06:23:15 I'd much rather have text files! 07:14:54 -!- DarkPants has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:18:29 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:18:48 -!- GreaseMonkey has changed nick to DarkPants. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:05:13 printn[val] <<< i don't get this in the Def-BF 08:05:28 unless it should be printn[tmp] or something 08:05:45 or 1/2 08:16:07 also 08:16:07 add1[val1,tmp] 08:16:07 add1[val2,tmp] // tmp = val1+val2 08:17:34 add1's params are copies, not the original var? 08:17:36 *vars 08:18:27 seems like it would be a bit of a space/efficiency to do that for all calls 08:18:53 define add1[a,b][ 08:18:53 a [- b+;];// add a to b 08:18:53 ] 08:20:03 well, i'll wait for rodgie 08:20:40 also i'll highlight him in case he's already awake, already slept like 3 hours: RodgerTheGreat 08:22:39 Adobe Reader is 190 Mo? 08:22:41 a sec 08:22:46 from copy's definition 08:22:46 add2[a,b,c]// make two copies 08:22:46 add1[c,a]// restore a 08:22:55 so add is clearly destructive 08:23:04 RodgerTheGreat: i do believe you have two errors 08:23:12 $ du -sh /usr/kde/3.5/bin/kpdf 08:23:12 265K /usr/kde/3.5/bin/kpdf 08:23:13 :D 08:23:25 but probably none, i'm a failer 08:25:45 what's this mo? 08:25:52 is it related to megabytor 08:25:53 s 08:28:21 fuck man i'm haf. 08:33:28 oklopol, s/megabytor/moozilla/ 08:33:41 it's related to moozilla? 08:33:48 lol 08:33:50 yes it is 08:33:50 im famous 08:33:58 okay 08:33:59 moozilla, it is in topic... 08:34:23 oklopol: talkin' bout mo here 08:34:25 i know 08:34:27 oklopol, he wrote it in some esoteric specs when he was high (the result of the specs were also written then it seems) 08:34:28 not fuck man i'm haf 08:34:55 http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/27/428255/esoteric.txt 08:35:18 hmm i missed the spec conversation, nnscript decided it doesn't show but about one page of logs now, and i have to use a fucking logviewer to read the rest 08:41:57 you have "h" as 8? 08:43:01 using ascii without the high byte? 08:43:06 *bit 08:45:08 moozilla: respond 08:45:14 how does output work? 08:45:22 second row designated for that? :\ 08:47:24 ah and you don't actually output, just make the second row contain hello world 08:52:54 moozilla: i think your example either fails miserably quite near the beginning, or then i misunderstood the language 08:53:29 but if i understood it correctly, i absolutely love the way you do args 08:56:09 as for tcness, you could set up an initial state and run a line of 110 08:56:55 so my suggestion is you infinitely execute the program for the first line, then move to the next, execute the program infinitely for it, and so on 08:57:03 this way you could easily write ca 08:57:14 moozilla: goddammit you were here 10 minutes ago :P 08:57:56 i'll write an interp for the current one as i understood it 09:01:39 hmm 09:01:57 it seems i managed to read only half of it, and thought it ended there :D 09:02:43 okay if second row indeed is output, as your hello world suggested, it might work 09:02:58 probably works, that is, at least the beginning does 09:05:04 replace(/[^+-*/%|&~#$?<>^v]*/g,''); //remove comments (javascript example) <<< this line is incomplete 09:09:00 hmm. actually i'm not sure how the looping shit works 09:10:02 you say something about looping grids letting you do flow control... not sure what you mean, but in case you either get flow control *or* an infinite grid, it's not tc 09:10:23 but you probably know that, now appear, o sweet moozilla. 09:10:44 i need a cool drink -> 09:12:21 heh, didn't even realize "cool" means cold :D 09:12:28 i meant in the other sense 09:13:52 i love python's "unstable" and/or driven flow control 09:14:02 should esolangify some of that 09:41:43 -!- DarkPants has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:42:32 perhaps i should make a small befunge interpreter in C 09:42:49 need more languages on my page 09:43:22 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/python.txt updated this, it used to be a fucking cartesian product i made in about 30 seconds :P 09:43:54 oklopol 09:43:58 the example works 09:44:02 in my interpreter 09:45:59 * AnMaster ponders writing a very slow interpreter 09:46:07 for some simple C-like language 09:46:25 it should be very slow 09:46:34 slower than bash 09:46:39 why? 09:46:42 moozilla: yep 09:46:43 just for fun 09:47:01 it's just you first start making the string on the second line 09:47:08 but @ l, you stack two in the same spot 09:47:28 moozilla: how does flow control work? 09:47:36 what order do you run the code in 09:47:50 just in order i think 09:47:51 oklopol, check his interpreter 09:47:57 check the spec 09:48:04 * AnMaster can read C# 09:48:10 however I got other stuff to do toda 09:48:12 today* 09:48:32 moozilla: i mean, how do you jump? 09:48:36 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/python.txt updated this, it used to be a fucking cartesian product i made in about 30 seconds :P <-- not readable! 09:48:42 AnMaster: why would i read it when i can just ask? 09:48:56 AnMaster: it's a one-expression bf interp 09:48:56 oklopol, oh you follow the lazy programmer paradigm? 09:48:57 i wrote the spec i year ago 09:48:58 i forget 09:49:04 AnMaster: what's that? 09:49:11 oklopol, "ask instead of read" 09:49:18 duh. 09:50:27 also, i have no idea where the interp is 09:50:53 AnMaster: i can't read code 09:50:54 in general 09:51:17 why not? 09:51:47 if there's a function the meaning of which i don't know, i will just try to read it over and over 09:51:58 oklopol, check man page? 09:52:02 often takes 5 minutes to realize i don't know what it is 09:52:14 it's not like that, i don't actually realize i don't know the function. 09:52:48 anyway, i have a lot of problems like that, when reading 09:53:34 i could probably read a small interp, tho 09:54:13 also i read code like a machine, the names of variables tell me absolutely nothing 09:55:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 10:18:49 -!- RedDak has joined. 10:39:38 -!- GreaseMonkey_ has joined. 10:48:32 -!- GreaseMonkey_ has quit ("Remote closed the previous member app"). 10:54:10 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:04:21 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:26:16 -!- jix has joined. 12:38:01 -!- RedDak has joined. 12:42:09 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:03:10 -!- olsner has joined. 13:09:31 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:22:40 RodgerTheGreat: wake yet? 13:23:08 yeah, but I'm leaving for classes in seconds 13:23:29 and I think you may be right about the program 13:24:56 what class? 13:25:03 if i may ask 13:38:40 The wiki page about Brainloller says 'Infinite loops due to the IP rotators can never happen because they're reversible and the IP starts at the top left.' Surely if execution encounters a square of 4 Rotate-Right instructions, there will be an infinite loop...? 13:39:31 Oh, I see. Never mind. 13:43:29 what did you see? 13:43:44 It is impossible to enter such a construction. 13:43:58 The rotations would prevent execution from getting to the right place to start the loop. 13:48:09 I can see that I'm going to waste a lot of time trying to come up with a shape that will cause an infinite loop because of IP rotators. 13:48:13 -!- Corun has joined. 14:12:01 right they're relative 14:14:48 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:16:03 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:34:32 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:37:25 -!- Corun has joined. 14:38:08 * pikhq <3 Def-BF 14:39:14 "Silly deontologist, cocoa crispies are for consequentialists!" 14:39:20 "I hold you morally responsible!" 14:57:13 -!- RedDak has joined. 15:00:42 "This means, if Azeroth really is a spherical planetoid with a diameter of 12 kms, that the planet must have an average density of roughly 5850 grammes per cubic centimetre. That makes its average density more than 500 times greater than lead. The extreme density of Azeroth would explain why it is impossible to pick up many objects from the ground, including ones that you have just dropped." 15:03:16 -!- olsner has quit. 15:15:06 -!- Slereah_ has quit ("kthxbai"). 15:15:23 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:16:36 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 15:17:55 -!- zolletta has joined. 15:18:37 -!- zolletta has left (?). 15:30:24 cctoide: how did you determine its mass? 15:31:53 it's from here: http://www.spaaace.com/cope/?p=111 15:45:30 -!- olsner has joined. 15:48:19 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 15:49:16 -!- Corun has joined. 15:49:30 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:49:38 -!- jix has joined. 15:55:02 ais523, hi there 15:55:07 hi AnMaster 15:55:13 ais523, how goes ffungi? 15:55:14 I got COME FROM INTERCAL to Befunge working 15:55:20 nice 15:55:26 and I've written much of the rest of the code but not tested it 15:55:34 ais523, oh in other news: envbot 0.1-beta1 was released today 15:55:35 all I need to do now is handle line labels in the Befunge 15:55:46 http://envbot.org/trac/wiki 15:56:20 ais523, oh befunge has goto using a fingerprint 15:56:24 * AnMaster checks what one it was 15:56:46 SUBR 15:56:47 :) 15:58:13 ais523, will it be possible to come from befunge to befunge? 15:58:15 I guess not 15:58:17 yes 15:58:19 oh? 15:58:27 it's possible to do all the combinations 15:58:32 even COME FROM C to Befunge if you like 15:58:36 you mean that some place in funge space will act as a teleporter to another place? 15:58:39 a wormhole? 15:58:40 :D 15:58:48 well, you can put in a line label like M5L 15:58:52 and a COME FROM like M5C 15:58:59 interesting 15:59:00 then if the M5L is evaluated, it teleports to the M5C 15:59:13 ais523, what is there are 2 places in funge space with same line label? 15:59:15 or errors if another COME FROM aims there 15:59:31 AnMaster: then it's unspecified which one is NEXTed to, and either can be COME FROM 15:59:40 the same behaviour as if you have two of the same line label in C 15:59:46 (duplicate labels are illegal in INTERCAL) 15:59:56 well that would cause an error if they are in same function right? 16:00:13 like: 16:00:14 no 16:00:17 foo: 16:00:20 code; 16:00:23 foo: 16:00:24 other code; 16:00:27 oh, yes if you were using C labels 16:00:33 I mean if you wrote ick_linelabel(5); for instance 16:00:33 ah you mean intercal ones 16:00:37 you can do that twice in the same function 16:00:43 ais523, well what will c-intercal do on that 16:00:59 COME FROMs target both of them, NEXTs switch to an unspecified one 16:01:10 and what one will happen in practise? 16:01:11 (that is, the compiler can choose either for any or no reason, but must choose exactly one) 16:01:13 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 16:01:18 AnMaster: I think it switches to the first one 16:01:21 ah 16:01:29 with a reasonably sensible definition of 'first' 16:01:47 -!- Corun has joined. 16:02:00 ais523, one intersting thing with your FFIs are that they are not really FFIs. They do far more 16:02:05 a FFI would just do function calls 16:02:07 yes, they do, really 16:02:19 they merge all the control structures of INTERCAL into the target language 16:02:29 except ABSTAIN/REINSTATE, but that would be even more feral than COME FROM 16:02:31 ais523, idea: inline C in intercal and vice versa 16:02:33 XD 16:02:49 AnMaster: ugh, both would be pretty difficult 16:02:52 hah 16:02:55 yeah guess so 16:03:08 actually, inline C in INTERCAL would be pretty easy with C-INTERCAL 16:03:12 I could just copy it verbatim to the output 16:03:22 what that actually did, though, would require a good knowlegde of the compiler's internals 16:03:28 hah 16:03:56 well the good thing is if you had that working and you used gcc you could then do inline asm inside that! 16:03:56 :D 16:04:24 anyway it is a bad idea 16:04:28 or inline c in inline intercal in inline c in inline intercal in inline c in intercal etc? 16:04:38 ugh 16:04:44 olsner: don't start on that, it would require writing a recursive compiler 16:05:40 ais523, does svg support background color? 16:05:47 colour* 16:05:48 AnMaster: I think so 16:05:50 but I don't know 16:05:50 extra evil points for requiring escapes for the inline code 16:06:01 olsner: INTERCAL has no escape characters 16:06:03 because it has no strings 16:06:07 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 16:06:08 haha 16:06:16 also, no particularly easy way to represent strings either 16:06:24 ais523: I'm not specifically talking about strings.. 16:06:25 string handling's a pain in INTERCAL 16:06:29 ais523, yet it can be done as it is turing complete I guess 16:06:34 AnMaster: yes, of course 16:06:37 it's just annoying 16:06:57 ais523, what about generating intercal code from some readable language? 16:06:58 just code in general - like have the end-of-inline-c character/syntax conflict with normal C syntax 16:07:11 AnMaster: I've been thinking about that 16:07:22 ais523, object orientated intercal maybe? 16:07:28 I think a C to INTERCAL compiler would be easier than compiling C into most other langs 16:07:34 oh? 16:07:34 and CLC-INTERCAL is optionally object-oriented 16:07:36 it has classes 16:07:38 and lectures 16:07:39 oh my! 16:07:42 lectures? 16:07:43 wtf 16:07:44 btw, do we still not have any programming language with time travel? if so, I'm building it 16:07:44 :P 16:08:02 olsner: TwoDucks (uncomputable), Feather (not properly specced and unimplemented) 16:08:05 olsner, well yes, TRDS in befunge 16:08:07 a fingerprint 16:08:15 cfunge won't implement TRDS 16:08:22 ccbi does 16:08:52 ccbi is a pain to compile, so just get binary downloads 16:08:59 bbl food 16:09:00 AnMaster: I compiled it 16:09:30 AnMaster: TRDS? google comes up almost empty-handed 16:09:38 olsner: see the CCBI docs 16:12:21 Deewiant: [[FBBI’s help text describes a flag -fast with the words “more speed, at the cost of locking up in infinite loops”. Interestingly, all it does is that it prevents the output of the string " \b" whenever the IP moves. I wonder: how exactly does outputting a character and then backspacing over it prevent infinite loops?]] 16:12:45 it's because in DOS, Control-C doesn't work until the next I/O operation by the running program 16:12:59 so it makes it possible to break an infinite loop with Control-C if you do useless IO 16:13:47 hmm, I found ccbi, but not the docs 16:14:37 I can't find its docs either 16:14:41 I found the source for TRDS, though 16:15:44 oh? 16:15:49 where? :D 16:15:56 inside the CCBI source package 16:16:12 there's a lengthy comment explaining how Deewiant managed to get bits of it working 16:17:55 there are two, actually, IIRC :-) 16:18:10 Deewiant: do you know where the TRDS specs are? 16:18:24 ah, fingerprints/rcfunge98/trds.d seems to contain the meat of the time-travel extension 16:18:36 olsner: yes, that's what I found 16:18:45 * olsner should learn befunge 16:18:47 ais523: in the readme of RC/funce-98 16:18:49 er 16:18:52 funge 16:18:53 -!- tusho has joined. 16:18:55 hi tusho 16:18:59 it's because in DOS, Control-C doesn't work until the next I/O operation by the running program 16:18:59 so it makes it possible to break an infinite loop with Control-C if you do useless IO 16:19:00 I see 16:19:14 very interesting 16:19:14 hi ais523 16:19:16 i won 16:19:18 no, I did 16:19:20 tusho, no you didn't 16:19:22 :D i love winning 16:19:32 i hit enter first, probably 16:19:39 as i said, networking is irrelevant 16:19:41 AnMaster: another weird DOS problem is with NTVDM (Windows emulation of DOS) 16:19:46 or in this case, my irc client being a retard 16:19:55 where it slows down to a crawl after a while if you don't give a program any input 16:20:01 ais523: that's odd 16:20:06 you can see individual characters being printed on the screen one at a time 16:20:14 08:18:53 --- join: tusho (n=tusho@91.105.109.15) joined #esoteric 16:20:14 08:18:55 hi tusho 16:20:18 ais523: http://web.archive.org/web/20020816190021/http://homer.span.ch/~spaw1088/funge.html for instance 16:20:19 08:18:59 it's because in DOS, Control-C doesn't work until the next I/O operation by the running program 16:20:19 08:18:59 so it makes it possible to break an infinite loop with Control-C if you do useless IO 16:20:19 08:19:00 I see 16:20:19 08:19:14 very interesting 16:20:20 pressing control, though, or any other modifier key, puts it back to full speed again 16:20:21 08:19:14 hi ais523 16:20:23 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.07.03 16:20:29 AnMaster: do you have to do that every day? I think I've made the game pretty clear 16:20:34 [16:18] hi tusho [16:19] hi ais523 16:20:38 _network_ _and_ _client_ _lag_ _are_ _irrelevant_ 16:20:40 it's about reflexes 16:20:44 tusho: well, I'm playing to different rules than you 16:20:47 ais523: the other long TRDS comment is in the main function or thereabouts 16:21:00 Deewiant, there is one in ip too 16:21:01 ais523: in that case, I'll DDoS freenode before connecting 16:21:02 iirc 16:21:16 quite possible 16:21:25 TRDS is pervasive, you'll find bits of it everywhere :-P 16:21:27 tusho: well, do your logs say when you sent the message? 16:21:27 hah, AnMaster is doing TRDS 16:21:32 ais523: yep 16:21:33 tusho, no I'm not 16:21:35 tusho: no he isn't 16:21:39 tusho, I'm talking about it 16:21:39 oh, okay 16:22:23 ais523: one sec, finding the logs 16:22:32 ais523, why is that slow down? 16:22:38 AnMaster: no idea 16:22:43 probably the Windows scheduler being stupid 16:22:59 ais523, does it only affect ntvdm? 16:23:06 AnMaster: as far as I know 16:23:12 uh, what's the date today ais523 16:23:15 :-| 16:23:22 2008-07-03 18:23:12 ( tusho) uh, what's the date today ais523 16:23:27 tor jul 3 17:23:27 CEST 2008 16:23:28 tusho: thurs July 3 108 16:23:35 ais523: LOL 16:23:40 that's in Unix years, of course 16:23:45 ais523, hehe :) 16:23:50 03-07. kay 16:23:52 unix years? wouldn't that be 38 16:24:00 Deewiant: well, C measures from 1900 16:24:08 and so does POSIX, I think 16:24:11 yes 16:24:14 even though 1970 is the epoch when counting in seconds 16:24:21 ok wtf 16:24:25 my client isn't logging right now 16:24:28 it's logging to the july 2 file 16:24:37 aha 16:24:38 got it 16:24:48 timezones? 16:25:07 AnMaster: tusho is, I suspect, in GMT+1 right now 16:25:12 as is ais523 , yes 16:25:32 ah 16:25:44 ais523, how does UTC and GMT differ? 16:25:51 GMT=UTC 16:25:53 GMT+1=BST 16:25:54 AnMaster: the handling of leap seconds, I think 16:25:56 ah yes 16:25:57 otherwise they're identical 16:25:57 aha 16:26:00 but for all practical purposes 16:26:02 I meant UTC, anyway 16:26:33 ais523: tushohi ais523 16:26:38 16:20:02 16:26:42 when did you send yours? 16:27:07 tusho: that can't be right, your message arrived for me a little after 16:19 16:27:16 tusho, sync your clock 16:27:18 ais523: yes, our clocks are different 16:27:20 and I sent mine in the last few seconds of 16:18 16:27:22 AnMaster: my clock is automatically sync'd 16:27:24 to nt 16:27:24 p 16:27:27 tusho: so's mine 16:27:27 it's ais523's that's wrong 16:27:29 17:19:14 hi ais523 16:27:37 right now 16:27:39 and before 16:27:39 17:18:55 hi tusho 16:27:41 it is 16:28 16:27:45 tor jul 3 15:27:45 UTC 2008 16:27:50 that is correct time 16:27:54 set using nytp 16:27:56 ntp* 16:28:06 ais523: your clock is wrong, I believe 16:28:20 tusho: I just checked, it's NTP'd 16:28:31 ais523: so is mine, to time.euro.apple.com 16:28:37 tusho, that could be it 16:28:47 I am going to write the time as I see it when I start typing the next line: 16:28:50 16:28:47 16:28:56 I use pool.ntp.org which is geodns iirc so it points to Swedish time servers 16:29:00 darn it, TRDS has almost entirely satisfied my thirt for implementing time travel 16:29:16 ais523: > Also, the HTML version of the Notary's report omits the AAA. 16:29:16 Really? I'll have to look into how that happened. 16:29:17 mine's synced to JANET 16:29:18 i think your input has a bug 16:29:30 ais523, what about pool.ntp.org? 16:29:33 enough to make me not want to spend the time, but not enough to not bother me anymore 16:29:55 olsner, what time? you won't spend it, you will gain it! 16:30:08 due to time paradoxes 16:30:09 :P 16:30:30 ais523, what is janet's ntp server? 16:30:32 AnMaster: I've added that one too 16:30:42 just because you suggested it 16:30:43 ais523, pool.ntp.org is good 16:30:44 :) 16:30:53 tell me the hostname for JANET? 16:30:58 ja.net 16:31:09 3 Jul 17:31:05 ntpdate[13404]: can't find host ja.net 16:31:09 ? 16:31:19 ntp2.ja.net 16:31:21 is the NTP server 16:31:38 3 Jul 17:31:32 ntpdate[13412]: adjust time server 193.62.22.98 offset 0.002959 sec 16:31:40 hm 16:31:53 just checked using -q 16:32:01 ais523, try: 16:32:03 ntpdate -q pool.ntp.org 16:32:11 AnMaster: I don't think janet want you using their servers... 16:32:24 tusho, I just checked their time server to see if it was off or not 16:32:25 ... 16:32:32 3 Jul 16:32:17 ntpdate[12689]: adjust time server 130.226.232.145 offset 0.013661 sec 16:32:35 well, apple's is highly likely to be correct :-) 16:32:41 them being a big corp and it being default-sync'd for all macs 16:32:48 3 Jul 17:29:05 ntpdate[13376]: adjust time server 17.72.255.11 offset 0.002143 sec 16:32:50 is the apple one 16:33:07 and my clock is synced to pool.ntp.org 16:33:21 anyway, I'm fairly certain as for hitting-enter-time I won as I did it immediately after it joined 16:33:27 vs typing hi t 16:33:33 but, network-wise 16:33:36 ais523 won and always will 16:33:45 tusho, fix your client maybe 16:34:27 AnMaster: i don't care that much 16:34:38 I guess you always start hacking on code that doesn't behave exactly as you want, too? 16:34:54 tusho, well I often do 16:34:56 tusho: maybe not always, but I did in the case of Nibbles 16:35:02 and sent off the patches to Gnome 16:35:03 I have fixed some issues in my irc client 16:35:04 erc 16:35:07 so this sort of thing is not unknown 16:35:12 ais523: of course, but 'So fix it!' does not really work for software. 16:35:24 and same I sent patches upstream to gentoo 16:35:41 for valgrind errors in the q tool suite 16:35:59 AnMaster: so YOU removed that MD_update call as an attempt to sabotage debian! 16:36:03 no 16:36:04 I didn't 16:36:07 :) 16:36:09 tusho, I fixed it the right way 16:36:12 when I fixed it 16:36:59 which was to check return value of readlink() 16:37:09 as it doesn't null-terminate the string 16:37:30 AnMaster: s/string/array of characters/ 16:37:41 in C, it isn't a string if it isn't null-terminated 16:38:14 ais523, well you could implement your own string 16:38:20 struct safestr { 16:38:24 size_t len; 16:38:29 char data[] 16:38:30 }; 16:38:41 that would be C99, but similar can be done otherwise too 16:38:45 AnMaster: yes, but it wouldn't be a C string 16:38:49 agreed 16:39:05 and yes, that works in practice but not in theory in C89 as long as you put something inside the square brackets 16:39:25 ais523, you could put it as a pointer 16:39:34 more or less same functionality 16:39:43 not exactly of course 16:40:40 or could probably be done with some macros 16:41:53 (char*)(mysafestrpointer + sizeof(size_t)) 16:41:54 XD 16:42:16 malloc would be painful though 16:47:13 ais523, can you paste current ffungi stuff somewhere? 16:47:19 I'm eager to see your fingerprint 16:47:24 AnMaster: doing something else right now, but I will soon 16:47:30 ok 16:53:49 ais523, do you understand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:INTERCAL_Circuitous_Diagram.svg 16:53:53 I certainly don't 16:54:00 I do 16:54:03 oh? 16:54:04 it's very simple 16:54:09 tusho, lier 16:54:10 I think it's a joke 16:54:12 it re-calculates the B/7 at each step, though 16:54:23 note that the bit at the end is defined so vaguely it could mean anything 16:54:26 also, there's an error in it 16:54:27 and it could get a Mornington Crescent in 3 16:54:33 one of the boxes has the wrong number of inputs 16:54:40 tusho, hey that is another game 16:54:57 ais523, oh what one? 16:55:15 AnMaster: I can't remember 16:55:19 it wasn't me who found the error 16:55:27 although it sparked a bit of discussion on Usenet a while back IIRC 16:55:37 ais523, anyway what does it mean exactly? 16:55:44 what is it trying to describe 16:55:50 AnMaster: the select operator 16:55:54 however, I think it's a joke 16:56:03 ais523, can you tell me what the select operator does then 16:56:03 because a circuit diagram for select wouldn't look like that 16:56:05 in the normal way 16:56:18 ais523: also, it's captioned Bus Line 8 and has place names along the side... 16:56:33 AnMaster: http://rafb.net/p/2BWylE78.html <--- IFFI so far 16:56:53 AnMaster: OK, select's a binary operator (i.e. it has two operands) 16:56:59 right 16:57:03 and it's bitwise, in that it operates on the binary representations of its operands 16:57:14 ok nothing odd so far 16:57:41 suppose you write both operands in binary; then the least significant bit of the output is the bit of the left operand corresponding to the least significant set bit of the right operand 16:57:49 same for the second-least, third-least, and so on 16:57:55 that's a bit confusing, so an example will probably help 16:58:10 oh you mean like: 16:58:14 00101 16:58:20 00011 16:58:22 results in 16:58:27 01000 16:58:29 or ? 16:58:32 no, 00001 16:58:40 basically, for 00101 ~ 00011 16:58:44 oh it is like bitwise and? 16:58:56 yes, imagine a right-justified bitwise and 16:59:07 right justified? ah 16:59:10 so 00101 ~ 00110 is 00010 16:59:14 well mine was left justified 16:59:17 right 16:59:18 I see 16:59:22 oh btw: char * ick_iffi_befungeString <-- one issue. try to compile that with -Wwrite-strings 16:59:29 it should be const char * 16:59:37 AnMaster: ah, ok 16:59:40 because literal strings in C are really const char * 16:59:48 it shouldn't be a problem because I only ever use it as const char * 16:59:53 however char * is supported for compatiblity 17:00:01 ais523, well it makes me feel ill :P 17:00:03 AnMaster: yes, and I declare strings as char * for compatibility 17:00:05 but OK 17:00:17 hah 17:00:45 AnMaster: could you try and explain your philosophy to me? C is the most ugly, hackish, awkward, low-level language that twiddles bits ever, and yet you try and encapsulate it and have 'clean', well-guarded code 17:00:47 it makes no sense 17:00:47 ais523, there is no need to declare it like that for compatibility really (unless your function prototypes are wrong) however compilers need to support it for compatiblity 17:00:58 tusho, that is your opinion 17:01:06 AnMaster: lots of library functions take char * arguments 17:01:12 AnMaster: no, i'm pretty sure C being a low-level, hacky bit-twiddling language is fact 17:01:14 and so give warnings if you try to pass const char * to them 17:01:24 ais523, in POSIX API? 17:01:24 even though they don't modify their argument 17:01:34 AnMaster: in POSIX/C99 they fixed it, I think 17:01:37 I'm not sure about C89, though 17:01:40 hm 17:01:50 it's definitely fixed for C++ 17:01:54 but C has a lot of inertia 17:02:18 static void ick_InterpreterRun() 17:02:21 that got another issue 17:02:23 static void ick_InterpreterRun(void) 17:02:29 oh, yes, of course 17:02:30 would be the prototype 17:02:37 sorry 17:02:42 not that it makes any difference in this case 17:02:48 indeed 17:03:01 so you write K&R C still? 17:03:01 ;P 17:03:04 does it actually matter for anything in practice 17:03:10 Deewiant, it may 17:03:15 Deewiant, if a header contains: 17:03:19 int foo(); 17:03:30 then a compiler will accept passing anything to it 17:03:35 I sometimes write K&R: it's much nicer to write void foo(x, y, z, w) const double x, y, z, w; than writing const double 4 times 17:03:36 without giving a warning or error 17:03:38 Deewiant: if you put void in the parens, a compiler will error if you try to pass the function arguments, if you leave it out, the compiler has to accept it but produces UB instead 17:03:42 AnMaster: yes, I realize that 17:03:52 my question was does it matter in practice 17:03:59 there's one point in C-INTERCAL where I deliberately leave the parens empty 17:04:01 Deewiant, as for double, well you got the horrible "expanding" type issue then 17:04:03 it protects from an error of accidentally passing an argument 17:04:07 you can't pass a float that way 17:04:08 after having been told to do so by comp.lang.c 17:04:17 but does it actually generate different code or anything like that 17:04:18 originally I had stuff there 17:04:24 but it required ugly casts 17:04:33 hm well I know one such case too 17:04:37 in crossfire server code 17:04:39 (Situation: I needed to write a function which was capable of taking a pointer to itself as an argument) 17:04:49 AnMaster: huh? the point was that K&R is sometimes more succint 17:04:52 the best would be to use a union of different function pointers 17:05:07 Deewiant, maybe, but I prefer ANSI C 17:05:20 (Situation: I needed to write a function which was capable of taking a pointer to itself as an argument) <-- ok, and? 17:05:21 AnMaster: K&R is legal in ANSI C 17:05:21 Ruby has an awful lot of K&R C code 17:05:24 at least in C89 17:05:29 there are a few files entirely or almost entirely using K&R C 17:05:29 AnMaster: try to figure out what type the function is 17:05:30 ais523, yes it is 17:05:34 but I don't like it 17:05:41 ais523: GCC at least accepts it in C99 mode as well 17:05:45 ais523, hm 17:05:51 haven't checked the standard to see if that's correct but I suspect it is 17:05:51 Deewiant, it is legal in C99 too yes 17:05:56 afaik 17:06:11 however I find I prefer compiler to be able to check arguments 17:06:52 anyway, the simple way to do that is to have an unprototyped function pointer, making the function void(*)(void(*)()) 17:07:04 more verified at compile time = less bugs at runtime 17:07:14 you can call prototyped functions through them, apparently, as long as you aren't using types that autopromote 17:07:34 ais523, idea: 17:07:46 union mydifferentvariants { 17:07:54 void(*)(void(*)(int foo)) 17:07:58 void(*)(void(*)(double bar)) 17:07:59 } 17:08:03 make the code valid of course 17:08:07 AnMaster: I only had one sort of function pointer 17:08:12 some ; and a lot more like names missing there 17:08:19 ais523, oh? 17:08:24 but it's impossible to write 17:08:24 void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void 17:08:24 (*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)( 17:08:27 void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)(void(*)( 17:08:29 in C 17:08:33 going on forever 17:08:36 ais523: awesome prototype 17:08:37 oh 17:08:38 haha 17:08:38 so the infinite regress has to stop somewhere 17:08:45 ais523: how about 17:08:51 ais523, yes then it makes sense to have it empty 17:08:55 taking the func ptr as (void *) ... wait, no, that's not valid 17:08:56 oh well 17:09:13 ais523, that is one rare case 17:09:13 (can't cast data ptr to func ptr) 17:09:27 tusho, well you have to, see dlsym 17:09:30 tusho: you can use void(*)() as a func ptr equivalent of void* 17:09:40 because function pointers can be freely casted back and forth 17:09:42 it needs casts though 17:09:43 AnMaster: dlsym requires you to break the standard 17:09:51 tusho, yes I know :/ 17:10:02 ais523: yes 17:10:08 besides, I've personally worked on systems where functions and data were in different memory 17:10:17 ais523, oh? 17:10:17 and function pointers and data pointers were different lengths 17:10:26 thus making intercasting kind-of difficult 17:10:28 ais523, they couldn't use shared libraries then? 17:10:42 AnMaster: well, seeing as they only had a few KB of RAM, the situation never came up 17:10:46 ah 17:13:11 ais523, why is ick_iffi_resuming an int? 17:13:16 shouldn't it be a bool? 17:13:31 I'm writing C89 there, more or less 17:13:31 you are C99 anyway as you use uint32_t 17:13:35 so there isn't a bool type 17:13:39 and I know I use uint32_t 17:13:54 but that's actually typedeffed in ick_ec.h if it doesn't exist already 17:14:11 so it works for me even in C89 17:14:33 besides, it's possible that some day I may want the rest of C-INTERCAL to look at those flags for some reason 17:14:43 %url:http://example.com <-- well I hope you fix that at some point, in the funge-108 specs, some form of URIs will be used to load fingerprints 17:14:53 AnMaster: I will fix that eventually 17:15:00 but I don't have an URL for it yet 17:15:03 ah 17:15:14 anyway it is likely to change to java style 17:15:26 because some issues I found with current 17:15:38 java style 17:15:39 ais523, I have to see how to solve it 17:15:39 eurgh 17:15:46 tusho, two fingerprints on one page 17:15:53 that is why a straight url won't work 17:15:55 AnMaster: that's not what a URI is 17:16:02 a URI doesn't have to resolve 17:16:06 tusho, true, uri is wider 17:16:08 a URI is just a universal locator 17:16:10 AnMaster: and 17:16:16 http://mypage.com/befunge#myext1 17:16:17 http://mypage.com/befunge#myext2 17:16:19 yes 17:16:24 hm maybe 17:16:26 so, keep them as just regular URIs 17:16:42 tusho, there were no anchors on that page 17:16:56 tusho: can you make a place on eso-std.org to act as somewhere to store databases required by esolangs 17:16:57 also it is gone, should I do way back machine link or what?! 17:17:02 such as for Funge-108 and for PSOX? 17:17:09 ais523: funge-108 will be distributed... 17:17:11 they'll just be uris... 17:17:15 yes 17:17:16 tusho: yes, I know 17:17:17 doesn't need a DB 17:17:24 tusho is right 17:17:25 but somewhere where people can create pages to describe fingerprints 17:17:27 so the URIs exist 17:17:31 ais523: uris don't have to _exist_ 17:17:39 ais523, well I assume they will use their own websites 17:17:42 tusho: no, but it would be helpful if they did 17:17:45 ais523: yes, true 17:17:45 ok 17:17:46 not everyone has their own website 17:17:46 how about 17:17:51 http://funge.eso-std.org/author/ext 17:17:52 like 17:18:04 http://funge.eso-std.org/tusho/replace_cfunge_with_sane_interp 17:18:05 ;) 17:18:17 anyway it could be: org.eso-std.funge.whatever 17:18:27 or maybe not 17:18:28 ;P 17:18:28 AnMaster: no 17:18:29 tusho: anyway, I think it fits ESO's mission to attempt to document all the fingerprints even if they're documented elsewhere 17:18:31 that's horrible and pointless 17:18:33 and not a real URI :) 17:18:34 tusho, yes I guess so 17:18:37 it omits http:// 17:18:40 true 17:18:42 so you can't use ftp:// or gopher:// 17:18:43 or whatever 17:18:47 ah true 17:18:52 -!- olsner has quit. 17:18:54 gopher://inspircd.dyndns.org :D 17:18:57 gopher:// would be fucking evil, though 17:18:57 :) 17:19:03 tusho, yes :) 17:19:09 AnMaster: nttp:// 17:19:11 *nntp 17:19:13 tusho, does eso-std have gopher? 17:19:18 no 17:19:21 why not? 17:19:25 why? 17:19:30 good question 17:19:31 we only have 256mb of ram 17:19:32 and apache is a hog 17:19:34 oh 17:19:36 true 17:19:39 lighttpd > apache 17:19:47 i've told you why we don't use lighttpd, AnMaster 17:19:51 ais523, one thing 17:19:59 ais523, why extern int in the source file 17:20:06 ais523, it should be in a header file IMO, but ok 17:20:16 oh wait 17:20:17 sorry 17:20:20 AnMaster: which occurence of extern int? 17:20:20 misread that 17:20:26 thought you used nested extern 17:20:45 I read in wrong place 17:21:55 ais523, for FingerIFFIload() the first load stuff seems odd? 17:22:11 oh wait I see what you do I think 17:22:12 AnMaster: basically loading IFFI for the first time signifies the end of the initialisation 17:22:22 reloading it in future has no effect because you aren't in initialisation 17:22:25 true 17:23:05 afk food 17:27:35 ais523: "CFJ 2028 assigned to root ais523" 17:27:36 hah 17:27:39 er, move to ##nomic 17:28:10 ais523, well IFFI looks quite nice 17:28:13 quite readable even 17:28:22 yes, the fingerprint itself is sane 17:28:24 AnMaster: it's not iffy enough then 17:28:28 glue.c99 is the silly part 17:28:33 ais523, well I don't fully agree with the brace style but heh 17:28:39 after all, I'm even using magic internal identifiers in it 17:28:46 I do separate for functions and same line for other stuff 17:28:47 :) 17:28:56 AnMaster: oh, I didn't realise, I'll try to fix taht 17:29:03 also IFFI.h has the wrong copyright information, but I'll fix that too 17:29:11 I forgot to credit me, and the GPL says I have to 17:29:17 yes you should 17:31:18 ais523, you should document each extern in the fingerprint header with doxygen to follow the style of cfunge ;P 17:31:36 AnMaster: maybe, but half of them don't make sense outside the concept of IFFI 17:31:48 well true, but I don't understand half of them either 17:31:49 as they're all flags to communicate with the main loop 17:31:53 ick_iffi_sucking? 17:32:24 ais523, what the heck is ick_iffi_sucking? 17:32:37 AnMaster: checking for suckpoints 17:32:43 and what are they? 17:32:51 AnMaster: COME FROMs and NEXT FROMs 17:33:01 referred to as suckpoints because they can suck in control from elsewhere in the code 17:33:17 ah 17:33:36 ais523, also why mixed spaces and tabs in the main file? 17:33:38 :( 17:33:55 the mix doesn't seem sane to me, sure I accept you use your own coding style 17:33:56 no problem 17:34:01 but why do you mix them? 17:34:04 AnMaster: it's the usual way to indent that most people use, 2 spaces = 1 indent, 1 tab = 4 indents 17:34:14 basically lots of spaces at the start of a line are turned into tabs by most editors 17:34:15 with tab = 8 17:34:28 well... mixed is the worst variant IMO 17:34:47 -*- mode: C; coding: utf-8; tab-width: 2; indent-tabs-mode: t; c-basic-offset: 2 -*- 17:34:54 ais523, that should work for your style? 17:35:17 AnMaster: not really, because I always have tab-width set to 8 so I can read everyone else's files 17:35:26 ais523: mixed spaces and tabs make me want to kill people 17:35:29 as it upsets you, I might set it to spaces only 17:35:30 stupid fucking emacs defaults 17:35:35 hmm 17:35:37 tusho, I agree there 17:35:41 ais523: SELL TICKET 17:35:44 5VP 17:35:45 ais523, well I'm happy with spaces only 17:35:48 Action: switch to tabs only 17:35:53 (i think that's a sell ticket) 17:35:55 or tabs only 17:35:59 issue is mixing them :( 17:36:01 tusho: yes, it would be, but wrong channel 17:36:07 ais523: no, note the action 17:36:18 tusho: it could be either 17:36:21 depending on who filed the ticket 17:36:27 ais523: I will pay you 5VP to switch to tabs only 17:36:32 :-P 17:36:36 then it's a Buy ticket with me as target 17:36:47 ais523, where is the middot? can't find it 17:37:00 AnMaster: 0xB7 17:37:06 but there isn't one in the code at the moment 17:37:10 ais523, I mean in your ick_iffi_befungeString 17:37:11 ah right 17:37:19 because that would be handled by a bit of ick I haven't written yet 17:37:33 what you see there is after that bit's been done 17:37:36 and I did it by hand 17:37:41 although I got it wrong and will need to fix that 17:38:02 ais523, any cfunge questions btw? 17:38:32 AnMaster: for a while I was thinking that an easy way to duplicate IPs would have been helpful, but after a while I realised it wouldn't be and in fact if it was there I wouldn't be using it 17:38:33 ais523, oh also you can remove the line "// TODO: Add code to template functions" from your fingerprint as you have done it 17:38:34 :P 17:39:02 ais523, there is an easy way if you compile with concurrency, so you could resuse that code I guess 17:39:10 AnMaster: yes, I noticed 17:39:13 but I don't need that any more 17:41:02 your fingerprint isn't safe? interesting, well I guess that is correct as you can't sandbox intercal? 17:41:21 AnMaster: INTERCAL's safe atm, but it's possible to link to C via that FFI too 17:41:24 and that can't be sandboxed 17:41:28 ah true 17:41:35 ais523, well it can technically 17:41:39 well, not easily 17:41:58 besides CLC-INTERCAL has file I/O so I may end up implementing that at some point 17:42:07 ais523, LD_PRELOAD trick maybe 17:42:08 0-bit variables and all 17:42:25 AnMaster: even then, the C could have inline asm and make syscalls directly 17:42:27 0-bit variable!? 17:42:34 ais523, hm true :/ 17:42:35 AnMaster: they have no value, but can have metadata 17:42:42 variables tend to gather a lot of metadata in CLC-INTERCAL 17:42:52 I see 17:42:56 sort of like a 0-length file can have a filename 17:42:59 which holds information 17:43:34 oh and attributes if the file system supports it 17:43:38 yep 17:43:47 -!- cherez1 has joined. 17:44:30 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:48:13 hi Sgeo 17:48:25 hi ais523 17:48:49 -!- cherez1 has left (?). 17:50:46 -!- timotiis has joined. 17:54:07 -!- cherez1 has joined. 17:57:21 damn 17:57:23 "SVG does not support specifying an image background color" 17:57:55 presumably you just have to draw a large filled rectangle, then, and put everything on top of it 17:58:44 hm 17:58:53 good ideq 17:58:54 idea* 18:00:55 -!- cherez1 has changed nick to cherez. 18:12:36 -!- Dewi has quit ("leaving"). 18:12:52 -!- Dewi has joined. 18:18:35 oklopol: ok, I'm back for a bit 18:19:57 RodgerTheGreat: "functions leave a 'return value' by storing a pointer to their result in the memory location the main pointer was at when the function was called." 18:19:59 Hmm. 18:20:07 How would that work with the C calling interface? 18:20:28 hm 18:20:40 that's one of the parts I haven't thought about much 18:20:41 (either the return value or the pointer to the return value is in eax, IIRC) 18:20:57 are return values really all that necessary? 18:21:18 so far all the examples we've worked with do great with just pass-by-reference for everything 18:21:31 Ah. 18:21:33 hm. although I imagine it would impair using some existing C libs 18:21:41 This is easy. 18:22:22 Just make the Brainfuck calling interface store the return value in eax, and then the calling function does 'mov eax, pointer'. 18:22:50 that makes sense 18:23:37 do we want a sort of dual nature to functions, so they can return a pointer or a value? 18:24:08 the method you described ought to work for either, the coder just has to remember which is which 18:24:32 and it might call for having two different kinds of return statements 18:24:56 Doesn't make sense to have two different kinds of return statements. 18:24:59 RodgerTheGreat, um? 18:25:01 what are you doing? 18:25:05 that isn't portable 18:25:08 The coder just needs to know if the value in question is a pointer or a value. 18:25:20 RodgerTheGreat, that totally breaks amd64 calling convention 18:25:21 and PPC one 18:25:29 AnMaster: it's his own cpu 18:25:30 i think 18:25:33 ah 18:25:35 AnMaster: we're discussing an x86-specific calling convention. 18:25:36 he said EAX 18:25:37 but the PPC doesn't have an eax I don't think 18:25:49 pikhq, I see 18:25:56 but the result will be portable I assume? 18:26:00 In fact, trying to make Def-BF's calling convention compatible with the standard C calling convention. 18:26:10 We're compiling to assembly, for crisssake. 18:26:14 oh you are 18:26:17 what a pitty 18:26:24 http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215028173.html 18:26:35 What about that reads 'portable code' to you? :p 18:26:38 Def-BF is more utilitarian than most esolangs 18:27:06 RodgerTheGreat, will it be portable to other platforms than x86 or not? 18:27:12 we also have this example of high-level code, which oklopol pointed out some issues with: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215053310.html 18:27:19 lemme debug that now, actually 18:27:34 AnMaster: eventually. x86 is the main target. 18:27:34 Sure, but the actual *code* will probably be only as portable as C code doing the same thing. 18:27:53 great 18:28:14 ais523, how goes ffungi? 18:28:23 I haven't started work on it yet today 18:28:32 but as you've seen, it went quite a way while I wasn't online 18:28:39 yes indeed 18:28:48 I, personally, plan to use Def-BF to write the holy grail of esolang coding. 18:28:49 ais523, maybe that was the cause of it getting that far? ;P 18:28:50 Brainfuck OS. 18:29:01 pikhq, hah 18:29:08 Brainfuck OS isn't very unique. 18:29:15 BF is a pretty typical low-level lang. 18:29:19 Things like Underload are interesting for OS 18:29:20 ' though, 18:29:25 *', though 18:29:40 ais523, could you make it possible to write an OS in intercal? 18:29:43 tusho: BF doesn't actually suffice for writing an OS, though. 18:29:49 AnMaster: what I have to do next is to figure out the other place I have to use ick_l1_ICK_EC_PP_1 18:29:50 well I guess it would be using the ec stuff 18:29:52 pikhq: So? :P 18:29:57 and those magic identifiers are a pain to think about 18:30:02 And I don't think anyone has really done it. 18:30:05 ais523, use what? 18:30:14 what is ick_l1_ICK_EC_PP_1? 18:30:17 basically it's the internals of the external calls code 18:30:23 it gets replaced by a goto label 18:30:25 The closest someone's gotten involves a very low-level Brainfuck interpreter. 18:30:30 http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215106118.html 18:30:34 and each occurence of it can get replaced by a different goto label 18:30:39 ^ that should fix what oklopol pointed out 18:30:42 ick is responsible for pointing them all at the right target 18:30:49 ais523, you mean you need to code intercal side? 18:30:56 and now there aren't any completely useless functions 18:31:05 AnMaster: no, the remaining stuff is on the glue.c99 side 18:31:15 where I have to use magic identifiers to hook into the NEXT targetting code 18:31:22 I see 18:31:55 RodgerTheGreat, is there any implementation? 18:32:06 this is what pikhq is working on 18:32:12 No; I plan to write one this weekend. 18:32:22 hrrm 18:32:22 Should be *ridiculously* simple to compile to assembly. 18:32:23 I wrote the original spec, and the two of us are refining it 18:32:23 I 18:32:34 I'm also helping with the standard libs 18:32:49 RodgerTheGreat, they are coded in the language itself I assume? 18:32:56 yes 18:33:01 Sure, but they don't need to be. 18:33:09 Def-BF will be self-hosting, in theory 18:33:25 Def-BF on Linux should, in theory, be able to use libc. 18:33:36 pikhq, well if you will write an OS in it you need raw access to stuff like interrupts 18:33:42 and certain other opcodes 18:33:44 and we already have some weak capabilities for doing inline assembly 18:33:52 you will need inline asm as far as I can see 18:33:58 RodgerTheGreat, nice 18:33:58 ^ 18:34:05 C doesn't need to be able to do that; it can call external asm functions. ;) 18:34:16 true 18:34:24 And Def-BF can do likewise. 18:34:30 C wrappers are a much cleaner way to do the assembly, but it's still possible without them 18:34:58 RodgerTheGreat, what about a C -> Def-BF compiler? 18:35:00 Def-BF's support is more like "inline machinecode" than inline assembly, really 18:35:16 AnMaster: I don't think that'd be terribly easy, but it should be possible 18:35:20 some parts would be easy 18:35:27 C -> Def-BF would look something like Gregor's CBF. 18:35:28 ;) 18:35:33 RodgerTheGreat, then you could compile linux to it? 18:35:38 and then compile linux to native 18:35:39 XD 18:35:40 theoretically 18:35:56 linux pretty much depends on gcc though 18:36:28 I doubt enough of linux is written in portable ANSI-C to count on being able to convert it 18:36:36 I'd be more likely to write a Def-BF backend for GCC. 18:36:52 and it'd probably run like molasses without proper optimization 18:37:24 RodgerTheGreat: if jsmips can run at acceptable speed... 18:37:31 * RodgerTheGreat shrugs 18:37:40 I never said it wasn't possible, just not easy 18:42:27 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1""). 18:43:31 RodgerTheGreat: jsmips is totally unoptimised 18:43:32 :-P 18:43:55 there's a difference between running a shell and running the linux kernel, dude. 18:44:08 RodgerTheGreat: Nonsense 18:44:08 :-P 18:46:02 And there's a huge difference when the Linux kernel is running a shell. ;) 18:46:04 Deewiant, there? 18:46:23 \o 18:46:25 I got a question: is "real" in D a double or a float? 18:46:33 it's a long double 18:46:47 or I guess that's the closest equivalent in C, anyway 18:46:51 Deewiant, well that is x86 specific iirc? 18:47:04 it's the biggest natively supported floating point type 18:47:05 iiuc, Def-BF solves the problem that's been bugging me that motivated me to start PSOX 18:47:18 largest hardware implemented floating point size (Implementation Note: 80 bits for Intel CPUs) 18:47:48 Sgeo: oh? 18:47:51 Deewiant, for x86_64 it would be a double as x86_64 use SSE instead of the "so called legacy" x87 18:48:19 AnMaster: surely x86-64 supports x87 as well 18:48:25 but in any case, I don't really care 18:48:27 Deewiant, it does, but it is marked as legacy 18:48:29 :) 18:48:33 if you do, run GDC on something and see what comes out 18:48:37 (DMD only generates x86 code) 18:48:41 The reason I started PSOX is because I noticed that "A BF program can do anything another computer program can do" was incorrect 18:48:48 Deewiant, anyway that isn't the issue here 18:48:51 Sgeo: Stunning observation there. 18:48:52 AnMaster: I'd suspect that on SSE-supporting CPUs, GDC and DMD make real SSE-sized. 18:49:00 DMD won't. 18:49:07 Deewiant, can you build ccbi will full debug info? 18:49:21 no optimizing 18:49:22 Sgeo: With Def-BF implemented, that will be true. 18:49:27 DMD doesn't generate code for MMX or SSE etc. extensions 18:49:27 I want to figure out something I don't get 18:49:28 ;) 18:49:33 what don't you get 18:49:55 Deewiant: Apparently, DMD sucks. 18:49:57 it'd be a fair bit of trouble for me to build a linux binary now so I'd rather not bother 18:50:01 pikhq: yep! 18:50:02 Deewiant, I want to trace your and mine TURT to see why mine get margins/scale all fucked up (your get the other stuff fucked up) 18:50:04 if nothing else, Def-BF gives BF programmers the ability to modularize and re-use code. When that's combined with interfacing to C, you have a tremendous amount of power, and it becomes quite feasible for systems programming (by esolang standards, anyway) 18:50:11 Deewiant, and that part of the code shouldn't differ 18:50:12 heh 18:50:19 and I can't figure out from my code 18:50:19 RodgerTheGreat: It becomes quite feasible by any standards. 18:50:22 can't you just trace your own 18:50:47 Deewiant, I have and well the logic seems correct but why does it come up at different answer than your? 18:50:57 it's a little more obscure than most high-level languages, but pikhq is right- it's astonishingly readable and clear 18:50:59 well that's what printf is for :-P 18:51:12 Link to Def-BF? 18:51:13 and valgrind, etc. 18:51:15 The big things you need for systems programming is being able to run without an interpreter, the ability to write directly to memory, and the ability to call arbitrary assembly. 18:51:19 http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215028173.html 18:51:34 Deewiant, I tried it, and I really want to trace your code, to check whenever the in memory path differ or if it is just the printing stuff that is broken 18:51:36 :/ 18:51:51 and once again, the example program: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215106118.html 18:52:07 Deewiant, so please make a debug build -O0 -ggdb3 style (well I don't know what your compiler call it) 18:52:20 Just being able to have functions makes the whole thing much, much easier to write in. 18:52:24 Deewiant, if gdb doesn't work on dmd binaries? maybe gdc? 18:52:40 (kinda like having macros makes PEBBLE much easier to write in than straight Brainfuck) 18:53:10 pikhq, how does unbalanced [] work? 18:53:19 does it keep track of where it was? 18:53:24 AnMaster: try iki.fi/deewiant/ccbi 18:53:31 Deewiant, asec 18:53:37 no idea what version of the source that is but at least it built :-P 18:53:42 AnMaster: dude, do it yourself 18:53:42 in my mind? Unbalanced [] works just the same as it does in Brainfuck. 18:53:44 :| 18:53:45 I basically tried to design a minimal extension to BF that made it possible to cleanly provide functions and other abstractions (code reuse, for example), and the side effect of that is that interfacing with other languages starts to become possible 18:53:46 Namely: it doesn't. 18:53:50 Deewiant, testing a sec 18:53:54 saying "Hey, you, recompile" isn't very nice 18:54:02 AnMaster: you can effectively make GOSUB/RETURN calls now 18:54:19 I wouldn't have done it but it turns out the machine I'm running irssi on has a copy of the source in a buildable state 18:54:24 so it wasn't as much work as I thought 18:55:33 RodgerTheGreat: You know, it might be nice to be able to do both pass by value and pass by reference. 18:55:37 Single stepping until exit from function main, 18:55:38 which has no line number information. 18:55:38 hm 18:55:40 hm 18:55:52 Deewiant, that is gdc or dmd? 18:56:04 hm 18:56:12 maybe I should actually build the object files too and not just link with -g :-P 18:56:14 It'd make calling out to C easier. 18:56:18 Deewiant, hah 18:56:27 AnMaster: try again 18:56:29 don't want to sacrifice usability or clarity, though 18:56:37 printf("%i", foo); wouldn't need a wrapper. 18:56:51 bbl- classes 18:57:01 Deewiant, still no line number info 18:57:11 (as it is, doing var: formatstring "%i", followed by printf[formatstring, foo] would print the pointer to foo) 18:57:13 * AnMaster tries more 18:57:38 and now? 18:57:42 a sec 18:58:00 RodgerTheGreat: I propose just using a $ to indicate that you're passing a value, not a pointer, to the function. . . 18:58:14 So, one could do printf[formatstring, $foo], and voila. 18:58:23 pikhq: Why can't you just make it implicit like how C does it? 18:58:30 (or, if you insist on making it C-esque, make that & instead of $) 18:58:43 s/&/*/ 18:58:48 Deewiant, slightly better 18:58:48 pikhq: That would be better. 18:58:58 tusho: In C, one needs to do & to pass by reference. ;) 18:59:04 pikhq: Sounds good to me. 18:59:12 I don't like things messing wit mah variblz. 18:59:15 AnMaster: that one's is the best I can do: "add symbolic debug info, pretend to be C" 18:59:28 Deewiant, yay it works kind of 18:59:29 :D 18:59:34 Hrm. Now that makes me want to add string literals. :p 18:59:48 But, that's not going to be that easy to add to the language, and it honestly isn't needed. 19:00:20 pikhq: But it'd be really convenient 19:00:33 I'm willing to do without. 19:00:52 Much, much easier to implement, after all. ;) 19:00:56 pikhq: It'll bite you... 19:01:01 It won't be fun :P 19:01:08 Deewiant, ahah, mangled names 19:01:15 that explains a lot 19:01:16 It'll be no worse than coding in assembly. 19:01:19 of course they're mangled 19:01:23 _D4ccbi12fingerprints8cats_eye4turt12printDrawingFZv 19:01:24 :/ 19:01:34 D has a module system, unlike C. :-P 19:01:36 AnMaster: Eagerly awaiting your suggestions on how else to compile an OO languge. 19:01:49 tusho, there must be some way 19:01:52 pikhq: Assembly has string literals. 19:02:02 tusho, storing it as meta data in some other way? 19:02:05 And what about when you've wrote the base and you're writing some slightly higher stuff? 19:02:11 AnMaster: But you need _multiple things_ with the _same name_. 19:02:19 AnMaster: And it has to be _fast_ - no performance penalty. 19:02:22 tusho, yes that sucks 19:02:30 No it doesn't. foo: .asciiz "String here.\n" doesn't count in my mind. 19:02:35 so well I guess this is sane 19:02:35 pikhq: Well okay. 19:02:36 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:02:36 Even so. 19:02:43 When you're writing slightly higher-level stuff... 19:02:44 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:02:44 It'll be painful 19:02:45 And that much, Def-BF supports. 19:03:46 Deewiant, any idea how to access the pic static variable? 19:04:00 nope 19:04:05 183 if (turt.movedWithoutDraw && turt.penDown) 19:04:05 (gdb) print turt 19:04:07 No symbol "turt" in current context. 19:04:08 :( 19:04:37 print _D4ccbi12fingerprints8cats_eye4turt4turt 19:04:39 I think 19:04:53 (gdb) print _D4ccbi12fingerprints8cats_eye4turt4turtS4ccbi12fingerprints8cats_eye4turt6Turtle 19:04:53 $1 = {} 19:04:54 hm 19:05:33 Deewiant, it is the pic variable I want though 19:05:55 ah wait 19:05:57 (gdb) print _D4ccbi12fingerprints8cats_eye4turt3picS4ccbi12fingerprints8cats_eye4turt7Drawing 19:05:57 $2 = {} 19:05:59 :/ 19:06:24 AnMaster: It's not C 19:06:36 tusho, how do I get data from that variable then? 19:06:50 AnMaster: Manually look at the memory. 19:07:04 tusho, well I don't know what internal structure it use 19:07:06 you might want to look at http://www.dsource.org/projects/gdb-patches 19:07:29 or use http://www.zero-bugs.com/ instead 19:07:30 AnMaster: you're using a C debugger on a non-C prorgam 19:07:32 zomgz 19:07:34 it doesn't wurk!!1 19:07:50 can't you get a list of variables in scope or something 19:07:59 tusho, gdb works for C++ so well it was a faulty but reasonable assumption 19:08:09 ah, but I guess you did anyway 19:08:10 AnMaster: c++'s object layout is esoteric, I believe 19:08:24 C++'s object layout is impl-defined 19:08:33 oh well 19:08:41 http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/abi.html 19:08:58 (gdb) print dot 19:08:58 $6 = (void *) 0xf7f71fd0 19:08:59 sigh 19:09:05 AnMaster: print *dot 19:09:07 yeah guess so 19:09:10 print *(dot+1) 19:09:11 print *(dot+2) 19:09:12 ... 19:09:16 tusho, not 19:09:22 (gdb) print *dot 19:09:22 Attempt to dereference a generic pointer. 19:09:24 :P 19:09:30 casting it to char 19:10:00 might as well use int instead 19:10:05 so you see more data at once :-P 19:10:16 Deewiant, still doesn't make sense 19:10:30 what 19:10:35 the data 19:10:44 how 19:11:07 who's in the mood of being really generous and giving me a domain 19:11:08 <.< 19:11:25 Deewiant, it doesn't match what should be there logically, so I guess metadata 19:11:28 Cannot insert breakpoint 0. 19:11:29 Error accessing memory address 0x1: Input/output error. 19:11:34 now that is nice 19:11:38 what should be where logically 19:11:50 Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 19:11:51 0x080936ef in _D9invariant12_d_invariantFC6ObjectZv () 19:11:51 nice 19:12:13 your debugger doesn't support the language being debugged 19:12:14 Deewiant, what D debugger is there then? 19:12:21 for linux 19:12:22 2008-07-03 21:07:06 ( Deewiant) you might want to look at http://www.dsource.org/projects/gdb-patches 19:12:25 2008-07-03 21:07:29 ( Deewiant) or use http://www.zero-bugs.com/ instead 19:12:38 Deewiant, that means compiling gdb again which I know is hard 19:12:39 for windows there's ddbg which is really great 19:12:39 aha 19:13:18 oh cost money, well gdb patches it is then 19:13:27 they offer the 15 day trial 19:13:34 which I suppose you can violate 19:13:40 {:d4} 19:13:45 Deewiant, what exactly does that do? 19:13:45 %4d 19:13:53 not %.4d? 19:14:01 AnMaster: just use the 15 day trial :-P 19:14:02 not sure 19:14:08 put your ideology aside for tools which actually work// 19:14:25 you can look up C# formatting, probably has the best docs on the subject 19:14:35 unless tango has improved in this area lately 19:15:20 evidently the API still only offers " 19:15:20 evidently the API still only offers "The format notation is influenced by that used by the .NET and ICU frameworks, rather than C-style printf or D-style writef notation. 19:15:28 uh? 19:15:29 AnMaster: Compiling GDB is hard?!? 19:15:30 how did that happen 19:15:40 pikhq, maybe I remember wrong 19:15:42 What's so hard about ./configure&&make&&make install? 19:15:50 pikhq, 64-bit and 32-bit 19:16:00 Oh. Well, then. 19:16:10 Prefix all those commands with linux32, and you're set. 19:16:16 http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/wiki/ChapterConversions#Layoutsformatstring 19:16:21 Or just do linux32 bash, and then compile it. 19:16:26 Deewiant, is your getDec correct? 19:16:35 beats me 19:16:45 enum : tc { 19:16:45 PADDING = 10, 19:16:45 MIN = -16383_9999 + PADDING, 19:16:45 MAX = 16383_9999 - PADDING 19:16:45 } 19:16:48 int getInt(tc c) { return (c < 0 ? -c : c) / 1000; } 19:16:49 uint getDec(tc c) { return abs(cast(int)c) % 1000; } 19:16:54 shouldn't it be / 10000 19:16:58 rather than / 1000 19:17:04 Deewiant, ? 19:17:07 yep, apparently 19:17:22 Deewiant, well that explains some part 19:17:38 or should it? 19:17:46 yeah, it should 19:17:51 I was thinking about the padding but no 19:18:13 well that explains *one* part of my problem 19:18:31 Deewiant, also you use a turt.min but no turt.max? 19:18:53 I must have misunderstood it's meaning if there should only be the turt.min 19:19:14 it looks like Turtle only contains a min 19:19:21 Deewiant, yes and I wonder why 19:20:37 RodgerTheGreat: I don't think the import: feature is strictly needed. 19:20:51 I'm imagining this thing just calling out to the linker, you see. . . 19:20:56 AnMaster: so do I :-D 19:21:36 And it's not like you really have prototypes in Def-BF. . . 19:21:41 Deewiant, look at lines 299-307 in turt.d 19:21:46 that doesn't make sense 19:21:48 am looking 19:21:56 so, say 19:22:02 or wait, where does min come from 19:22:03 ? 19:22:12 Deewiant, min is set in newDraw() 19:22:15 whenever something is drawn, yes 19:22:16 or whatever it was called 19:22:20 so it really is the minimum point 19:22:21 okay 19:22:21 Deewiant, but why not max 19:22:25 WHAT? 19:22:28 I don't know, like said 19:22:37 Deewiant, you can have negative coordinates after all 19:22:56 should min be smallest not largest? 19:24:00 that's what I was thinking 19:24:04 so 19:24:06 the area is always square 19:24:09 so it's symmetrical 19:24:12 so we only need to track min 19:24:15 as max is -min 19:24:15 um is it? 19:24:16 or something 19:24:21 I can draw something non-symetrical 19:24:22 well we make it so 19:24:26 so that we center in the middle 19:24:29 aha 19:24:33 I guess 19:24:56 so if min is (-20,-20) 19:25:22 that comes out to (-20,-20) and (40,40), hmm 19:25:41 TBH I think that's crap :-D 19:27:00 needs a partial or complete rewrite 19:27:09 which I'll try and do on the weekend 19:27:56 Deewiant, agreed 19:29:04 but yeah, min = -max doesn't work because as you said if somebody draws only from 0 to -20 then the image should be (-20,-20) to (0,0) not (-20,-20) (20,20), the centre is wrong 19:29:08 so that's crap 19:29:15 and I can't see what the * 2 is about 19:30:03 Deewiant, you wrote it! 19:30:04 ;P 19:30:15 so? :-P 19:33:36 yay I got my margins correct 19:33:41 Deewiant, now I see the 2* 19:33:44 you got: 19:33:59 x,y,width,height 19:34:02 in viewbox 19:34:10 oh, okay 19:34:12 so you need 2xmargins for width and such 19:34:18 I thought it was minx, miny, maxx, maxy 19:34:26 Deewiant, anyway your margins were still messed up 19:34:31 but yeah, that makes sense 19:34:35 and yeah, like said above it's not smart 19:34:52 Deewiant, I do it with min/max now 19:34:56 :D 19:35:24 Deewiant, try this: http://rafb.net/p/OFwhCX47.html 19:35:32 unlike some of ccbi's it won't crash your browser 19:35:32 :P 19:35:49 (well rather ccbi locked up both firefox and konqueror) 19:35:59 so how does yours do on the quine now 19:36:35 Deewiant, haven't tested yet 19:36:41 there are still some other issues to fix 19:37:26 what's with all the style=foo 19:38:22 stroke-width:0.00005px; --> I can't see any of what those paths draw as my monitor only supports 1-pixel pixels :-P 19:38:35 Deewiant: hahahahahahah 19:38:45 dude we've all moved onto fractional pixels 19:38:48 you're BEHIND 19:38:52 (what about my behind?) 19:38:58 oh noes >_< 19:39:14 Deewiant, it is to prevent filling and such 19:39:26 fill:none;fill-opacity:0.75;fill-rule:evenodd; 19:39:29 Deewiant, ccbi's path are filled by default 19:39:36 it seems to me that the latter two are pointless 19:39:36 Deewiant, that was copied from inkscape 19:39:40 because it worked 19:39:51 don't copy from inkscape, read the standard 19:40:05 Deewiant, well that didn't do you any good 19:40:06 :P 19:40:19 sure it did 19:40:22 Deewiant, I can get ccbi to generate invalid xml 19:40:24 it doesn't do me any good any more, though 19:40:39 since I can't remember what I read and what I read of course influenced the code :-) 19:40:45 cool, how 19:41:05 Deewiant: surely you used a proper xml production library 19:41:07 AnMaster: you too 19:41:26 tusho, yes the libc one 19:41:32 fputs()/fprintf() 19:41:34 Deewiant, and a sec 19:41:41 AnMaster: do NOT produce xml that way 19:41:42 just don't 19:41:53 just truthfully, honestly, don't 19:41:59 Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/uavl3h33.html 19:42:11 tusho, why not? 19:42:13 it validates 19:42:20 AnMaster: don't 19:42:25 tusho, why not? 19:42:26 use genx in 19:42:26 tusho: if you're doing something that simple you can 19:42:27 c 19:42:31 tusho, why not? 19:42:34 Deewiant: genx is trivial 19:42:39 AnMaster: because you ARE getting it wrong 19:42:42 printf is even more trivial 19:42:42 it's not even conditional 19:42:48 tusho, is my file wrong? 19:42:48 noi 19:42:50 no* 19:42:52 it validates 19:42:53 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:42:58 AnMaster: no, but it is almost certainly trivial to make it produce an invalid file 19:43:02 "This Page Is Valid SVG 1.1!" 19:43:03 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:43:05 AnMaster: no, but it is almost certainly trivial to make it produce an invalid file 19:43:18 tusho, yes maybe for , that needs more debugging 19:43:20 well 19:43:31 AnMaster: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/genx/docs/Guide.html 19:43:32 however is written atomically 19:43:38 if you can make it produce an invalid file, chances are that if you were using an XML library you can make it produce a valid file with incorrect contents 19:43:42 fix your code now 19:43:45 tusho, is it one source file? 19:43:48 so an invalid file may even be better 19:43:49 AnMaster: i believe so 19:43:56 http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/genx/ 19:43:58 Deewiant, agree 19:43:58 yep 19:44:01 well, two 19:44:06 tusho, ok 19:44:08 one lib and one auxillary lib that it uses 19:44:18 tusho, GPL compatible? 19:44:19 and quite a lot of software uses it 19:44:27 AnMaster: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/genx/COPYING 19:44:29 so I can just drop the source file into cfunge 19:44:30 looks like mit 19:44:35 I'm NOT going to depend on it being installed 19:44:39 tusho: and I suppose if you don't call genxEndDocument() then it can catch the error and complain loudly? 19:44:53 Deewiant: if you don't call endDocument it won't output anything 19:44:55 :) 19:45:12 so it buffers everything in-memory until the whole thing is done? 19:45:14 tusho, is it debugged with valgrind? 19:45:17 AnMaster's going to love this ;-) 19:45:19 Deewiant, yes that seems horrible 19:45:27 that's what every DOM lib does 19:45:30 your browser does it, for instance 19:45:42 tusho, why though? 19:45:42 and I imagine it'll work fine with valgrind, AnMaster 19:45:47 so, we do not want a DOM lib. :-) 19:45:57 well 19:46:00 Deewiant, I agree with you 19:46:01 i'm not sure if it stores it in memory 19:46:04 still, just use it 19:46:09 it's trivial, fast, and memory-efficient 19:46:11 and tons of stuff uses it 19:46:19 and Tim Bray made it, I'm pretty sure he knows xml pretty well 19:46:21 :P 19:46:23 tusho, it is not even in portage or freebsd ports 19:46:34 AnMaster: because you should just drop it in to your app 19:46:54 AnMaster: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/genx/COPYING <-- is that GPL compatible or not? 19:47:01 AnMaster: it's the MIT license 19:47:06 aha 19:47:07 right 19:47:23 it was explicitly designed so you could just drop a few files into your app and use it, AnMaster 19:47:27 "Writing XML or declarations. Of course, you could squeeze these into the output stream yourself before any Genx calls that generate output." 19:47:29 thus the license & 3-fileness, etc 19:47:33 well I guess I have to do that then 19:47:40 AnMaster: well yes, that's just: 19:47:46 19:47:48 tusho, BUT CAN I BE TRUSTED WITH THAT!? 19:47:48 19:47:53 AnMaster: yes. yes you can. 19:47:56 I NEED A DOCTYPE LIBRARY! 19:47:58 ARGH! 19:48:02 it's when variable data comes in that the problem arouses 19:48:20 tusho, so can I print fixed point numbers with it? 19:48:27 I don't feel like creating buffers for them 19:48:34 AnMaster: i haven't used genx that extensively. 19:48:41 but I have seen many uses of it 19:49:00 viewbox=\"%s%d.%04u %s%d.%04u %s%d.%04u %s%d.%04u\" 19:49:01 :P 19:51:18 -!- pikhq has left (?). 20:00:38 I may use genx later 20:00:44 tusho, not today however 20:00:55 alright 20:00:58 maybe in the weekend 20:00:59 actually 20:01:05 the week after next 20:01:14 I will be away to Norway for parts of next week 20:12:24 -!- RedDak has joined. 20:24:39 when did ais leave? 20:24:57 ages ago :( 20:26:08 yes 20:26:11 the place he was at closed 20:26:43 how would you store the notes for a homophonic tune? 20:26:51 tusho, I thought it was open until midnight? 20:26:57 not that place, evidently 20:27:01 :( 20:27:09 lament, huh? 20:27:10 lament: a list of (len,pitch) tuples? 20:27:11 lament: homophonic? sounds suited to #esoteric 20:27:16 har har har 20:27:24 what is homophonic? 20:27:24 hahahahaaaa 20:27:48 I would store normal tunes as (len,pitch,data for how hard the string was hit) 20:27:51 as midi does it 20:28:07 what if there's a pause 20:28:14 lament, ok maybe: 20:28:27 and it makes it difficult to calculate the absolute position of notes 20:28:31 time,len,pitch,data for how the instrument was played) 20:28:40 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:28:49 lament, I would simply use midi 20:28:54 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:28:56 instead of reinventing the wheel 20:29:04 lament, doesn't that seem saner? 20:29:18 isn't midi overcomplicated and a bitch to parse 20:29:21 yes 20:29:24 maybe 20:29:28 I would use a library 20:29:33 like tusho told me to for xml 20:29:34 :P 20:29:42 are there good midi libs? 20:29:45 if not I might write one in C 20:29:48 and bind it to stuff 20:29:48 thankfully midi doesn't do what i need, anyway 20:29:49 no clue 20:29:53 lament, oh? 20:30:04 tusho, I never tried to use midi that way 20:30:07 AnMaster: it doesn't store anything about ties, slurs, stem direction, etc. 20:30:16 lament, hm 20:30:25 lament, ohhh I know 20:30:27 use xml! 20:30:28 :P 20:30:30 no don't 20:30:34 use S-Expressions 20:30:35 really 20:30:36 very funny 20:30:36 xml might actually be sane for this... 20:30:38 :\ 20:30:44 lament, S-Expressions 20:30:45 :P 20:30:49 i'm not asking how to serialize stuff 20:30:56 i'm asking how to represent it 20:31:02 lament: a C structure? 20:31:02 :p 20:31:05 serialization isn't important 20:31:39 lament, well you need absolute point in time of note,length + data for how hard the person hit the key on he piano or whatever 20:31:48 lament, or what do you mean? 20:32:18 just notes? then store it as (type of entry,position in current clef,other data) 20:32:24 or something like that 20:33:39 -!- Deformalite has joined. 20:33:43 Wooohoo, ackermann function works. 20:33:45 :) 20:33:56 This interpreter is coming along nicely. 20:36:14 oh my 20:36:18 Deformalite, running out of memory? 20:36:26 also what language 20:36:39 Uhm, I have not released specs yet. 20:36:44 Sorry. :( 20:36:54 No memory issues. 20:36:54 Deformalite, do that first! 20:37:16 Deformalite, well with ackermann's function that is easy to do 20:37:20 But I do sortof wish I would have compiled to some sort of intermediate code instead of interpreting. 20:37:59 Deformalite, well compile it to C 20:38:00 :) 20:38:17 Not really possible. 20:38:18 Too weird. 20:40:44 It would be much easier to compile to assembly. 20:40:51 Or llvm ir. 20:42:48 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:43:51 Deformalite, do LLVM then 20:43:58 Deformalite, I'm not on x86 so I hate x86 asm 20:44:00 :P 20:44:20 I am on powerpc most of the time. 20:44:29 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:44:32 Deformalite, well x86_64 here mostly 20:44:46 AnMaster: Even on x86, most people hate x86 assembly. 20:45:03 My opinion is "It gets the job *done*, sure, but it's fairly kludgy." 20:45:15 My opinion is "KITTENS" 20:45:27 tusho: Good opinion, if you like lolcats. 20:45:33 pikhq: No. 20:45:34 Just "KITTENS" 20:45:37 With the quotes and uppercase. 20:45:44 "KITTENS" 20:45:59 x86 isn't all bad. 20:46:13 At least it isn't Harvard architecture. 20:46:19 * Deformalite huggles self modifying code. 20:46:39 * pikhq huggles self-modifying code, as well 20:46:46 * tusho huggles "KITTENS" 20:47:15 Self modifying code is terribly interesting, and very esoteric. :) 20:47:29 * pikhq nods 20:47:38 You want interesting, though? 20:47:42 Self-modifying C code. 20:47:48 >:D 20:48:03 Eh, not very difficult to pull off. 20:48:11 True. 20:48:14 But diabolical. 20:48:58 You can make a function for each instruction or procedure, then just utilize higher order functions. 20:49:11 It is essentially just making a cheap interpreter. 20:51:21 I didn't say it was impossible. Merely that it is ridiculously diabolical. 20:51:40 Some IOCCC entries use it; what does that tell you? :p 20:52:17 pikhq: And all IOCCC entries use C. 20:52:19 ZOMG 20:52:24 C is esoteric and obfuscated! 20:52:28 ... wait, yeah, it is 20:52:47 I, of course, meant the 'self-modifying code' bit. 20:52:53 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:52:56 C actually isn't terribly obfuscated. 20:53:02 O RLY 20:53:04 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:53:13 It's not the *greatest* language, but it's got a few things in its favor. 20:53:20 First, it's a fairly simple language. 20:53:37 Second, it's good for systems programming. 20:53:43 Third, it is ubiquitous. 20:53:46 MY Z IS Z 20:53:52 ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzZ 20:54:15 It's that bit about being ubiquitous that makes it handy. 20:54:41 Well, makes it insanely handy. 20:57:02 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 20:57:03 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:58:22 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:58:31 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 21:00:25 * Deformalite huggles self modifying code. 21:00:26 NX bit 21:00:28 :P 21:01:53 tusho, why do you hate C? 21:01:59 i don't 21:02:05 you like it? 21:02:05 i love c 21:02:13 tusho, "but" what? 21:02:18 but nothing 21:02:40 but you don't consider it a clean language? 21:03:01 tusho, ? 21:03:10 define clean 21:03:34 "not obfuscated" 21:03:40 wrong definition 21:03:54 tusho, also you can write obfuscated python 21:03:56 i know very clean obfuscated languages 21:03:58 and vise versa 21:03:58 C is nice, D is nicer. 21:03:59 I have seen oklopol's code 21:03:59 :) 21:04:09 oklopol's python code is lovely 21:04:13 Deewiant, D is a pain to get working (compiler and such) 21:04:15 because it's fun 21:04:26 dsss makes it a bit easier. 21:04:28 it can be, yes 21:04:33 AnMaster: I have never had any problems. 21:04:40 oklopol doesn't piss around for days indenting crap and making it all go fast and modularized and stuff 21:04:42 suggestion: go to tango's web site and get the package they offer 21:04:42 AnMaster: OS? 21:04:42 Deformalite, I couldn't get tango to compile 21:04:44 he just writes something really awful 21:04:46 Deewiant, 64-bit Linux 21:04:47 but it's fun and works 21:04:49 x86_64 21:04:49 Don't use tango then. 21:05:00 AnMaster: x86_64 is a bitch with D. 21:05:01 Deformalite, well the app I needed to use used it 21:05:03 he needs tango because I use it. :-) 21:05:03 * Deformalite is one of the few anti-tango left. 21:05:06 Tango just doesn't build there. 21:05:08 pikhq, well that is a bug 21:05:16 Deformalite: phobos is a bug 21:05:23 a glitch 21:05:25 an error 21:05:31 Phobos is a standard. 21:05:36 pikhq, well I'm anti tango if it doesn't build on x86_64 21:05:45 Deformalite: Who gives a shit about a standard that 3 people use? 21:05:48 pikhq, once it works properly I may be interested 21:05:48 Phobos is much simpler. 21:05:53 No it's not. 21:05:54 It's more trivial. 21:05:58 And less well-designed. 21:06:07 Tango is a terribly ugly api IMO. 21:06:09 AnMaster: can't you just build it as 32-bit code 21:06:10 Very javaish. 21:06:16 Deformalite: Very javaish? 21:06:17 But that's enough of that. 21:06:20 We're using a different Tango here... 21:06:21 ideally in a 32-bit chroot 21:06:24 Deewiant, then I need a 32-bit chroot to get that working for gdc 21:06:29 I don't have any currently 21:06:32 * Deformalite gets back to his interpreter. 21:06:37 set one up :-P 21:06:38 I won't spend that time on it 21:06:44 I just won't 21:06:57 Deformalite: are you Deformative? 21:07:03 once it works on x86_64 and is in portage I may be interested 21:07:04 Indeed. 21:07:06 can't be that hard 21:07:07 all these d guys are scary 21:07:16 Deformalite == Deewiant? 21:07:26 doubtful 21:07:29 err i doubt that 21:07:32 ah 21:07:35 AnMaster: You do not need chroot to get gdc working... 21:07:35 yeah, i doubt that 21:07:47 * tusho plays with the idea of writing a RubyCocoa gmail client 21:07:48 Deformalite, I need it working with tango in x86_64 21:07:59 * Deformalite doesn't know about that. 21:08:02 until that is possible out of box I consider D non-mature 21:08:04 But I know phobos works fine.. 21:08:08 AnMaster: your fault for running a 64-bit OS without support for 32-bit ;-) 21:08:16 Deewiant, I do support 32-bit 21:08:17 AnMaster: s/d/tango 21:08:18 nothing odd 21:08:20 Uh. People. 21:08:25 Tango works fine on 64-bit afaik 21:08:31 hm 21:08:44 Yeah, I have never heard of such problems. 21:08:47 really? 21:08:48 http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/ticket/1097 21:08:50 http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/ticket/865 21:08:56 http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/ticket/1082 21:09:00 http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/ticket/1071 21:09:07 possibly others :-P 21:09:07 Never said without issues, Deewiant 21:09:13 But I'm pretty sure, with dsss, you can 'net install 21:09:16 ' tango pretty easily 21:09:21 "works fine" means "without issues" to me :-) 21:09:38 Then no software works fine my dear Deewiant. 21:09:49 * Deformalite is tired of tango discussion. Back to my work. :P 21:09:59 'echo' works fine so far 21:09:59 work work work 21:10:16 but yeah, depends on your definition of 'issue' 21:10:21 I consider segfaults an issue :-P 21:10:22 oklopol: Before I leave, yeah, I am Deformative, not Deewiant. 21:10:31 Deewiant: I bet gnu 'true' has bugs - have you ever read it? 21:10:33 It's crazily bloated 21:10:41 maybe it does 21:10:47 but it hasn't segfaulted on me yet 21:11:00 and it works upwards of 99% of the time 21:11:07 Deformalite: no one sane thought you might be Deewiant, i was just afraid you might be another De... guy 21:11:08 so it has no issues. :-) 21:11:25 who's that one guy that's here sometimes, Dewi or something? 21:11:28 'D' at the start of the name signifies a D user. 21:11:28 hrrm 21:11:32 Deformative and Deformalite in the same room would probably collapse into singularity 21:11:32 he's somebody else too 21:11:40 'De' means 'Deewiformative clan' 21:11:42 Heh. 21:11:42 Deewiant: Liar 21:11:45 Dewi is not Deewiant 21:11:47 err 21:11:50 s/not// 21:11:52 Dewi is so Deewiant 21:11:58 Deewiant, dewi is in this channel 21:12:00 Eh, if De is grouped together, I need to change my nick. 21:12:02 Dewi is a whole another guy 21:12:02 Erm. 21:12:08 Actually. 21:12:08 is he 21:12:08 wow 21:12:09 AnMaster: ah, good point 21:12:12 No it's all fine. 21:12:14 my tab completion missed him 21:12:14 austarlian 21:12:17 australian 21:12:21 austaralrarian 21:12:26 alright 21:12:30 Austarlia is right next to Canadia 21:12:31 this is the part where I go to bed. :-P 21:12:32 * AnMaster is now known as tusha 21:12:37 j/k 21:12:46 but first I'll leave some reading with you. 21:12:46 http://www.math.sfu.ca/~cbm/errh/101_analysis_bedtime_stories_(epsilon_red_riding_hood).pdf 21:12:49 * AnMaster is now known as oklolop 21:12:50 I wanna be called tasho so I can have t@sho.org 21:12:50 XD 21:12:55 and good night then \o 21:12:58 Deewiant: lmao 21:13:01 Deewiant, not yet 21:13:04 Deewiant, :/ 21:13:36 timezones make me go :/ 21:13:43 tusho, stay! 21:13:51 err what 21:14:08 don't leave! 21:14:13 I wasn't leaving 21:14:21 what did you mean then? 21:14:27 timezones make me go ':/' 21:14:30 you went 'not yet :/' 21:14:35 when, err 21:14:40 obviously it was night where Deewiant is 21:14:59 he is one hour later than me 21:15:02 tor jul 3 22:15:01 CEST 2008 21:15:32 22:15 is totally night, AnMaster 21:15:39 tusho, blergh 21:15:43 not until midnight :P 21:15:57 tusho, anyway it would be 23:* for him 21:18:26 What other helloworldies are there? Hello world, factorial, ackermann, and what else? I am going to do a turing machine soon, but if there are any others it would be nice to test before I go on to the turing machine. 21:19:56 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:20:02 Deformalite: cat 21:20:10 ?cat 21:20:15 ... 21:20:20 Deformalite: open a terminal 21:20:22 run 'cat' 21:20:34 That isn't a helloworld. 21:21:02 All that does is prove use of streams and file io. 21:21:19 http://www.math.sfu.ca/~cbm/errh/101_analysis_bedtime_stories_(epsilon_red_riding_hood).pdf <-- that was fun 21:21:23 I need something that tests language features a bit more, recursion/iteration and stuff. 21:22:22 Deewiant, write a brainfuck interpreter in it? 21:22:47 of course that is the turing test 21:23:30 Deformalite: Y combinator 21:26:32 does anyone have a transparent-background version of the gmail envelope? 21:27:15 nop 21:28:47 :( 21:36:57 tusho, ask google? 21:37:09 AnMaster: tried that 21:37:19 tusho, what did they say= 21:37:22 I mean email them... 21:37:33 not "google for it" 21:38:23 AnMaster: oh 21:38:29 they're a bigcorp and it's copyrighted 21:38:30 no chance 21:39:00 tusho, is it fair use? 21:39:06 it's for my personal use 21:39:09 but think about it 21:39:14 most of their emails probably go straight to /dev/null 21:39:16 they're huge 21:39:20 they'll get 1k+ emails every day 21:39:27 and here I am, asking them for a high-res version of their logo, just like that? 21:39:29 so not happening 21:39:33 hm 21:39:49 tusho, say you are from new york times or something :P 21:40:06 xD 21:55:26 anyone in a domain-buying mood? <.< 22:07:03 Bah, how could I forget quicksort. 22:07:07 ._. 22:53:28 -!- olsner has joined. 23:03:19 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:09:05 -!- Deformalite has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:16:23 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:30:46 RodgerTheGreat: God, Def-BF will kick ass. 23:35:25 will it 23:38:15 Moscoooooow 23:38:30 Enter the Hymen Store, two men are scorched and burned, kite me a sign. 23:38:34 Moscoooooow 23:39:02 Don't worry Bill is dead, there lies the toy opened, Indians are high. 23:40:59 What, GregorR 23:41:17 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH8gtrD4_C4 23:41:59 hah 23:44:46 tusho: If you want your domain so badly, why don't you buy it? 23:45:48 GregorR: I already own ONE domain :'( 23:46:23 I own five, cry me a river. 23:46:33 GregorR: ok 23:46:34 :'''''''''''''''''( 23:46:37 :'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''( 23:46:39 :''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''( 23:46:44 :''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''( 23:46:46 :''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' 23:46:48 :''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' 23:46:54 :''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' 23:47:00 :''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' 23:48:02 (HALP!) 23:48:02 v 23:48:02 ~~~O/~~~~ 23:48:11 GregorR: Buy me a domain and I shall help! 23:49:16 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:51:53 tusho: If you already own ONE domain, what's one more? :P 23:52:11 GregorR: Money 23:52:34 -!- olsner has quit. 23:53:29 GregorR: How about. You buy a domain and I'll give you an account on rutian (the machine running eso-std.org) :-P 23:53:32 It is completely useless but fun! 23:53:41 You shall be dictated to by the two sudoers, me and ais523! 23:54:57 GregorR: AWSUM DEAL RITE 23:57:37 GregorR: No? :( 23:58:09 LIKE NO 23:58:14 GregorR: :( 2008-07-04: 00:01:56 -!- revcompgeek has joined. 00:02:11 -!- revcompgeek has left (?). 00:08:34 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 00:11:40 http://www.reddit.com/info/6q5cc/comments/c04kmyx grrr 01:01:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 01:01:55 -!- Deformalite has joined. 01:12:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:21:26 'sup, folks? 01:24:26 RodgerTheGreat: The sky; as always 01:24:44 that depends on your point of view 01:43:23 -!- tusho has quit. 02:30:11 -!- revcompgeek has joined. 02:30:21 -!- revcompgeek has left (?). 02:30:59 -!- revcompgeek has joined. 02:31:05 -!- revcompgeek has left (?). 02:59:43 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:00:28 * pikhq mutters about how Def-BF will kick ass 03:01:49 hey pikhq 03:02:02 and yes, as you said before, it's gonna kick ass 03:02:57 nobody paid much attention when I originally created the spec, so I thought it would languish in dusty folders forever 03:04:11 Actually, I thought it would kick ass, but that I didn't have the knowledge to actually implement it back then. . . 03:04:18 Well. . . Now I do. 03:04:24 woohoo 03:04:31 Hooray, knowledge! 03:14:49 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 03:44:24 -!- ihope has joined. 03:45:23 Sugar Cane Nomic is invading. >:-) 03:45:29 yeah, I'm not Deewiant or Dewin or any of the other names that trigger my highlight all the time 03:45:32 I propose that players be able to give points to each other. 03:46:15 oh, Deewiant only triggers the highlight when Deewiant is asking who I am 03:46:41 Hi, Deformalite. 03:50:32 ihope, how is sugar cane nomic invading? 03:50:37 Also, ##nomic 03:50:58 It's invading by being in this channel rather than ##nomic. :-P 03:51:14 Oh 04:29:41 -!- Parma-Quendion has joined. 04:34:47 -!- Quendus has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:50:35 how come ##nomic only has two #s? 04:51:02 there's probably a rule for it... 04:51:41 rules are meant to be broken! 05:00:39 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:02:37 * Sgeo files a criminal CFJ against lament for that statement. 05:03:23 I know postscript. Does anyone have any interesting project ideas for me to try to tackle? 05:03:51 in the past, I've made a handful of things like my self-randomizing bingo card: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/bingo.ps 05:06:52 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 05:55:25 Tell me, is it normal for you feet to itch the first day you wear new shoes? 06:06:52 GregorR, were your feet itching the last time you wore new shoes? /me thinks it's normal for feet to feel strange, but not to itch.. 06:07:55 Sgeo: I can't give a normal experience with shoes, I have a severe allergy. 06:08:07 oO 06:11:01 I just thought I might not be allergic to these shoes. 06:11:12 But I'm getting preliminary symptoms that suggest I could be. 06:12:49 New shoes usually feel weird, but not itchy 06:12:57 Also, why don't socks protect you? 06:13:40 I'm allergic to chromium, and a layer of non-chromium-tanned leather isn't sufficient to protect me, so socks are worthless. 06:14:24 I guess I can add microfibers to the list of materials I can't wear. So, I'm looking for those elusive non-leather, non-synthetic-leather, non-microfiber shoes. That leaves, what, moccasins and clogs. 06:15:06 Can that allergy actually hurt you? Or is it merely uncomfortable? 06:15:31 Suffice to say that I've had to throw out a lot of socks because I couldn't clean the blood out of them. 06:15:53 well, we have a clog in the channel, but only one... 06:16:34 * Sgeo winces for GregorR 06:17:06 How many people have this allergy? Not enough for shoemakers to care? 06:20:37 Approximately 0% :P 06:20:58 I've only found statistics within certain populations that have a high exposure to chrome, and even in those fields it's less than 1%. 06:22:33 Ah, here we go: "he prevalence of Cr(VI) sensitivity among the general U.S. population is estimated to be 0.08%." 06:23:25 That's specifically hexavalent chromium (the toxic variety), and I'm allergic to all forms of chromium (including the non-toxic kind that's used for tanning) 06:23:41 SO, suffice to say I won the really-effing-annoying-allergy lottery. 06:38:07 Better than being allergic to nothing because you have no immune system.. 06:46:47 you're special 06:47:09 i'm allergic to nothing 06:47:43 bsmntbombdood, have a healthy immune system? 06:52:22 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to PaulKarason. 06:52:24 yes 06:52:33 at least afaik 06:53:42 -!- PaulKarason has changed nick to Sgeo. 07:01:37 -!- cc_toide has joined. 07:05:48 it's been a while since i've been here, eh 07:16:51 -!- cctoide has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:18:35 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:48:14 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Remote closed the previous member app"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:08:28 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 08:14:22 -!- timmytron has joined. 08:16:14 -!- timmytron has left (?). 08:16:14 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:16:17 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 08:25:20 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:25:31 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 08:34:52 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:35:11 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 08:44:36 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 08:50:42 lament: i dreamt about you 08:52:04 23:12… Deewiant: http://www.math.sfu.ca/~cbm/errh/101_analysis_bedtime_stories_(epsilon_red_riding_hood).pdf <<< ha! i knew someone would link this sooner or later 08:58:14 awesome, what happened? 09:01:24 lament: i was here, talking to you about your new conlang. 09:01:44 for some reason, all its ideas were from lalna, my own conlang... 09:02:08 07:55… GregorR: Tell me, is it normal for you feet to itch the first day you wear new shoes? <<< no, you freak!! 09:02:52 oklopol: does that mean you identify me with that part of yourself that creates conlangs? 09:05:47 well there's this guy on #c++.fi that was talking about how he loves watching scat porn in another dream of mine... 09:06:23 perhaps i identify him with the part of me that loves watching scat porn 09:06:27 he wasn't too pleased 09:07:34 i'm having more and more irc dreams lately 09:08:12 the nice part is i can now say for sure it's bullshit you can't read stuff multiple times in your dreams without it changing 09:10:08 Deewiant: where did you see the link btw? the guy who linked to me was finnish too, and it was not that long ago, perhaps there's a simple chain 09:10:26 i love chains, i want to be an irc god 09:12:16 hawt 09:13:22 i never remember dreams :( 09:14:02 :( 09:15:29 i probably have hot oklopol scat sex 09:25:34 most likely 09:25:45 can't imagine why you wouldn't 09:37:54 -!- RedDak has joined. 10:08:25 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:13:59 -!- Deformalite has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:32:47 i'm having more and more irc dreams lately 10:32:49 weird 10:33:17 Deewiant: where did you see the link btw? the guy who linked to me was finnish too, and it was not that long ago, perhaps there's a simple chain 10:33:23 well now I linked that to a few other places 10:42:16 Guy dudes. 10:42:26 I think I found an error in one of Gdel's paper 10:42:32 Should I email him? 10:53:19 -!- olsner has joined. 11:26:36 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:39:17 -!- pgimeno has joined. 11:42:52 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:43:08 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:49:10 -!- jix has joined. 12:03:40 Slereah_, heh? 12:03:45 you found an error? 12:03:49 wtf 12:04:20 Slereah_, also isn't he dead? 12:11:16 -!- RedDak has joined. 12:21:37 -!- cc_toide has changed nick to cctoide. 12:37:03 -!- ihope has joined. 12:46:50 Email him, FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE 12:47:05 He describes a function b 12:47:42 "b(0,x)=b(x,0)=0 and b(x,y)=1 when x,y>0" 12:47:51 And then goes on to say that b is the or function 12:52:23 -!- Corun has joined. 13:04:43 Slereah_, sounds more like "and" to me? 13:05:02 check for erratas? 13:08:20 oklopol: I could answer you but you're not here, dammit! 13:09:03 No erratum 13:09:11 Deewiant, answer what? 13:09:21 But well, it isn't very important, as one can just as easily build logical operator with not and and 13:09:31 2008-07-04 12:33:17 ( AnMaster) Deewiant: where did you see the link btw? the guy who linked to me was finnish too, and it was not that long ago, perhaps there's a simple chain 13:11:00 It is the 4th of July. 13:11:13 Have you blew up stuff, like the Founding Fathers want you to? 13:11:39 Slereah_, we are not from America 13:11:48 I'm from Sweden and Slereah_ is from Finland 13:11:54 so stop being so US centric 13:11:57 I'm no Finn :( 13:12:04 err 13:12:06 I meant Deewiant is 13:12:07 Also, I'm no US man either 13:12:19 But I am partial to blowing stuff up. 13:17:27 -!- Corun_ has joined. 13:22:26 -!- olsner has quit. 13:36:43 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:48:23 Wikipedia has no article with a list of people that have the nickname "Butcher". 13:48:38 As in "The Butcher of [place]" 13:55:30 -!- Corun__ has joined. 14:04:57 -!- oklopol has joined. 14:09:30 -!- Corun__ has changed nick to Corun. 14:12:08 -!- Corun_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:34:32 okokokokokokokokoko 14:34:45 so what color am i? 14:46:04 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:48:20 White, you Finn. 14:50:07 ... 14:50:43 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:53:27 oklopol: ah, excellent, you're here. 14:53:41 oklopol: so, in response to your question, I saw it on reddit and posted it to two IRC channels I'm on. 14:54:19 are these channels the two channels whois shows you're one? 14:54:31 *on 14:56:07 Slereah_: clever answer, i didn't actually remember skin color existed 14:56:23 thought someone might cheat by using whatever color they see my nick as 14:56:39 but that was even cheatier 14:59:37 oklopol: on IRCnet, they are, so probably not 15:00:23 so esoteric wasn't one of those two? 15:01:03 (also you're only on one channel there, publicly) 15:01:13 (so # prolly was the other one) 15:01:54 which channel is that 15:02:06 ah, actually 15:02:10 the other is on quakenet 15:02:14 and the other on ircnet 15:02:16 my bad 15:02:19 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:07:29 on quakenet, you're on no public channel 15:08:20 then they're private :-) 15:09:44 * oklopol takes his magnifying glass and starts snooping 15:11:03 if you can tell me the nick of the guy you heard it from I can tell you whether he's in either of the channels where I announced the PDF 15:12:05 AKX 15:12:11 err 15:12:28 well he linked it ages before you, now i'm just being curious. 15:12:48 so, probably, he saw it on reddit as well. :-) 15:13:01 it was at the top of the math subreddit. 15:15:33 i would have preferred it with a bit more math, now it was more about just knowing what theorems have to do with what, and what names form punny funs. 15:15:40 s/names/terms/ 15:16:13 well, it's a bedtime story after all, so it can't be too complex. :-) 15:16:55 most of it was real! 15:18:06 only little imaginary stuff 15:18:20 i guess real stuff will always be complex stuff, tho. 15:18:38 i should really get to work 15:18:52 keep up the good work and shit ------> 15:25:53 -!- tusho has joined. 15:26:18 hi ais523 15:26:19 hi tusho 15:26:21 you win 15:26:31 only by a few fractions of a second at my end, though 15:26:33 yes, by any count 15:26:42 by about 20 seconds at mine 15:28:17 by 2 seconds at mine 15:28:37 but the message only arrived 25 seconds after you joined 15:28:44 yes 15:28:47 my client seems to WHO everyone 15:28:59 still, each of our clients log to the second when we hit enter 15:29:01 which is the measure 15:39:52 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/info/6pxzk/comments/c04k6o5 makes me sad 15:49:43 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:49:53 -!- jix has joined. 15:50:06 ais523: oh man 15:50:06 {It's not available for download yet. Which makes me suspect that this year's challenge will be writing "Hello World" on a system that has been so insidiously corrupted that it would make Ken Thompson faint.} 15:50:08 -!- Corun_ has joined. 15:50:10 that sounds like something you'd do 15:50:44 tusho: where's that from? 15:50:47 which competition? 15:50:51 ais523: ICFP 2008 15:50:57 when is it? 15:50:59 reddit thread 15:51:04 amd 15:51:06 it was a response to: 15:51:07 {I'm going to grab this CD just to see what a proper Linux development setup looks like! :)} 15:51:15 the submission was 15:51:15 http://www.icfpcontest.org/rules.html 15:51:36 ah, next Friday 15:51:43 I think it might be interesting to put a team together for that 15:51:48 out of #esotericers 15:51:59 -!- Corun_ has quit (Client Quit). 15:52:03 ais523: not really 15:52:11 i'd be in on it so we'd spend the whole time arguing 15:52:19 also, they have restrictions on what language you can use 15:52:27 I guess that means you can't choose C and write an interp in it and use that? 15:52:30 <.< 15:52:46 yes, you can 15:52:48 it's been done in the past 15:52:58 although I'm going to request INTERCAL as a matter of course... 15:53:05 actually, maybe not 15:53:32 hey, shinh's in #icfp-contest 15:56:09 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:56:29 -!- tusho has joined. 15:56:40 a better question - 15:56:42 where ISN'T shinh? 15:57:23 huh 15:57:27 is anagolf down? 15:58:00 ah no 15:59:51 -!- timotiis has joined. 16:04:28 RodgerTheGreat: Whee. 16:04:39 'sup? 16:05:07 Concerning the idea of adding label:. . . 16:05:22 Could we say that a function may also be used as a label? 16:06:03 (like in assembly, how it honestly doesn't *care* whether the address being jumped to is a function or not) 16:06:35 Hm. well, functions have header code related to calling the function 16:07:05 I never said that I'd recommend using one as the other is *sane*. 16:07:06 so maybe the function should be usable as a label immediately after the header? 16:07:32 I'm just saying that this makes it easier, I think, to compile to assembly. 16:07:46 seems like a decent idea, we just need to come up with at least one case where it would be useful, and then design around that 16:08:13 It's not actually useful, it's just easier to compile. Infinitely. :p 16:08:15 if we can't come up with any cases where it's useful, it's added complexity that we want to avoid 16:08:19 hm 16:08:22 pikhq: Self-modifying code, dude. 16:08:23 Well, actually, there is one case. 16:08:25 And code hidden in data. 16:08:27 And vise-versa. 16:08:36 Modifying data to modify code. 16:08:37 Vise-versa. 16:08:38 Tusho got it. 16:08:42 pikhq: write a little proof-of-concept or something 16:09:05 does anyone here apart from tusho fancy entering the ICFP in a #esoteric team? 16:09:13 i don't fancy it 16:09:15 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:09:15 i said why :p 16:09:18 yes, I know 16:09:39 I know how badly that would go too, so that's why I said "apart from tusho" 16:09:46 regardless of anything, I just don't think our way of coding overlaps at all 16:09:48 for all of #esoteric 16:10:11 I mean, for a start, language. 16:10:21 For every language someone uses in here, another person vehemently hates it. 16:10:26 I think it would be great to actually win with an INTERCAL program 16:10:35 that would never happen 16:10:39 but just entering one would be fun 16:10:39 Yes, but nobody here can code INTERCAL but you, ais523. :p 16:10:47 tusho: it's not that hard to learn 16:11:53 I'm willing to teach it over IRC to anyone who's willing to learn 16:11:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:11:57 Care to link to Def-BF again? 16:12:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:12:38 [Fri Jul 4 2008] [16:10:47] tusho: it's not that hard to learn 16:12:40 [Fri Jul 4 2008] [16:11:16] I'm willing to teach it over IRC to anyone who's willing to learn 16:12:47 seen it. 16:12:51 ok 16:12:51 even so 16:12:58 I wasn't sure, because my connection was playing up about then 16:13:04 an irc channel by nature is almost entirely too eclectic to manage anything like this 16:13:07 unless it's tight-knit 16:13:11 I'm willing to teach it to anyone who's willing to learn anyway 16:13:11 and when you consider this is #esoteric... 16:13:26 well, it would be possible to get a 24-hour coding effort going 16:13:36 pikhq: you should really save these to your computer or something: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215028173.html 16:13:43 http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215106118.html 16:14:42 at this point, the fibonacci sequence generator is becoming a more accurate and complete reference to the high-level language, so I suspect I'll need to revise the spec soon 16:15:10 ais523: will you teach face-to-face? 16:15:33 oklopol: only if someone happens to be in the same place in RL at the time 16:16:20 over IRC's just as easy, though 16:16:29 especially as it means that you don't have to crowd on computers 16:16:38 * tusho imagines #esoteric denizens meeting each other and shudders 16:16:50 yes, that would be bad, probably 16:17:58 :D 16:18:02 ais523: 'Well, I think this pizza should have X topping, because it's tastier.' / 'But Y is faster to eat!' / 'Let's roll a dice.' / 'OK, can I borrow your laptop?' *tap tap tap tap random.org* 16:18:04 *die 16:18:23 i often randomize my choices 16:18:24 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:18:32 makes life so much easier 16:18:35 oklopol: I even have a set of polyhedral dice on me right now 16:18:43 heh 16:18:44 not because I need them, but because I forgot to remove them from my laptop case 16:18:50 er, the joke was that you would use random.org and not a real ie. 16:18:51 *die 16:18:53 <.< 16:19:05 hmph, you know your life isn't perfect when you can't just decide to go to birmingham at a whim. 16:19:21 i could probably just go to birmingham at a whim 16:19:23 :p 16:19:54 tusho: i use python for randomization 16:20:03 i call it a die occasionally. 16:20:05 oklopol: that's a PSRNG 16:20:07 er 16:20:09 PRNG 16:20:14 random.org is a real RNG 16:20:19 maybe I should alter nomicdice_ to enter #esoteric, but it's a PRNG too 16:20:29 we need botte 16:20:31 it could use hotbits 16:20:46 :D 16:20:51 tusho: there's no difference 16:20:58 oklopol: yes there is 16:21:03 and what's that? 16:21:12 hotbits' atomic decay is pretty much fundamental randomness. 16:21:19 a computer just does some arithmetic based on the time. 16:21:27 all randomness is fundamental until proven otherwise 16:21:35 one cheap way to get a true-random number is through the sound input when there's no soundcard connected 16:21:43 you just pick up thermal drift, that way 16:21:52 pseudorandom works just as well 16:22:08 i liek hotbits 16:22:12 it's silly 16:23:23 sure thing 16:24:47 ais523, hi! 16:24:53 ais523, how goes ffungi? 16:25:03 AnMaster: I haven't updated it recently 16:25:09 mostly due to having nowhere to easily code 16:25:12 I'm on a sofa at the moment 16:25:15 which is not ideal for coding on 16:25:38 so instead I ran through the C-INTERCAL manual and corrected lots of typos 16:25:46 including a couple which were pretty nasty 16:25:48 ais523, heh 16:25:51 like what? 16:26:02 like accidentally comparing select to OR rather than AND 16:26:08 and saying all variables were read-only by default 16:26:08 oops 16:26:22 the second is exactly wrong, btw, all variables are read-write by default 16:26:48 well TURT works apart from bg color now 16:26:55 which I can't easily find how to fix 16:27:02 ais523: not exactly wrong 16:27:07 exactly wrong would be all variables are write-only 16:27:14 hah 16:27:24 read-only and read-write are the only possibilities in INTERCAL at the moment 16:27:45 ais523, is the intercal code self modifiable? 16:27:54 AnMaster: not exactly 16:28:00 C-INTERCAL isn't self-modifying 16:28:15 but you can turn bits of syntax on and off at will 16:28:35 basically, all syntax is compiled whether it has a meaning or not 16:28:52 it syntax-errors at runtime unless that syntax has been given a meaning (at runtime) before it's encountered 16:30:44 Guys. 16:30:50 hi Slereah_ 16:30:57 Should I buy a book just because it has a section "Care of Your Pet Combinator"? 16:31:08 no, not just for that 16:31:20 I mean, children are starving in Africa and everything. 16:31:21 although if it has a section like that, it may have other things you want too 16:31:29 RodgerTheGreat: http://pastebin.ca/1062312 16:31:34 i agree with ais 16:31:42 Gets a function from stdin, executes it. 16:31:49 hey, a #esoteric first, at least one person agrees with me 16:31:58 hmm... maybe that's because I normally talk to tusho 16:32:02 Erm. s/variable/var/ 16:32:12 ais523: Fuck you. :P 16:32:24 lol 16:32:27 I think I will not buy it. 16:32:45 Unless... 16:32:52 pikhq: can you elaborate 16:32:53 i don't get that 16:33:01 Abebooks has it for $79, but some website for 35 16:33:12 To the google converter! 16:33:28 Slereah_: that much? 16:33:33 definitely don't buy it, then 16:33:35 what's it about, anyway? 16:33:38 Well, it's a science book. 16:33:42 No science book is cheap. 16:33:51 Lambda calculus and all. 16:34:18 Unlike religion, where you can find books for free, Science has value D: 16:34:33 Perhaps it'd be easier to make that loop just: 16:34:48 bar ,[>,] 16:35:16 Slereah_: Turn into a fundie. You only need one book and it has everything! 16:35:20 And it's cheap! 16:35:37 http://macrochan.org/source/S/B/SBR5MBJZNWY4CSNASFFYCFGV4PZ4HUVX.jpeg 16:35:39 SCIENCE! 16:35:49 Well, I already have 30% of the bible. 16:36:05 (Most free bibles peddlers only give out the new testament) 16:37:00 "Carol Hindley (1986) has given some marvellous drawings of the outsides of several well known combinators in her hilarious note "Care of Your Pet Combinator". Here we find that they bear somewhat more resemblance to insects and reptiles than to conventional birds." 16:37:07 How hilarious do you think this is? 16:37:16 44 euros of hilarious? 16:37:22 Slereah_: probably not 16:37:32 I advise you to find it in a library or bookshop instead 16:37:39 that way you can look at it without having to pay for it 16:37:53 You want me to find an English book on lambda calculus here? 16:38:07 what is it called? 16:38:14 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lambda-Calculus-Combinators-Introduction-Roger-Hindley/dp/toc/0521898854 16:38:17 I'm in a library, there's always a chance it's here... 16:38:22 http://macrochan.org/source/S/B/SBR5MBJZNWY4CSNASFFYCFGV4PZ4HUVX.jpeg <-- hilarious 16:39:12 As for here, I already have a hard time finding any book at all on lambda calculus 16:39:20 Much less some obscure English one. 16:40:23 Also, why does that review call the author Carol? 16:40:31 "by J. Roger Hindley" 16:40:38 J. does not ring of Carol. 16:41:17 beh, it doesn't have Lambda-Calculus and Combinators: An Introduction but it does have Introduction to combinators and (the lambda)-calculus by the same authors 16:41:24 and now I'm puzzled as to whether it's the same book 16:41:33 ais523, check ISBN? 16:41:49 I'm not sure how to find it at the Amazon end 16:41:58 hm ok 16:42:04 ISBN-13: 9780521898850 16:42:24 ah, got it 16:42:26 it's a different ISBN 16:42:32 but it starts with the same few digits 16:42:37 at least, the library gives two different ISBNs 16:42:41 but it doesn't match either 16:42:48 maybe it's a different edition of the same book? 16:42:55 ais523: likely 16:42:57 or an american version 16:43:01 Do ISBN change with versions? 16:43:04 vs some other country 16:43:08 It's the ISBN of the same version 16:43:12 *second 16:43:12 Slereah_: not sure, probably yes if the contents change 16:43:23 anyway, the easy way for me to settle this is to log out and then go hunting around the shelves 16:43:30 bye for a while 16:43:35 -!- ais523 has quit ("looking for a book in RL"). 16:43:35 ais523, oh? 16:43:38 ah 16:43:38 kthxbai 16:45:27 Also, is it dangerous to use both bird combinators and insect combinators? 16:45:40 I fear they might try to consume them. 16:50:42 heh 16:51:06 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:51:31 Hulo ais523 16:51:37 Slereah_: I found the book 16:51:38 don't buy it 16:51:47 ais523: why not 16:51:52 the pet combinator stuff is just one page, not particularly interesting, and out of character with the rest of the book 16:51:58 which is just full of dry mathematical stuff 16:52:21 ais523: you just, because of someone on irc, went and found a book and made a micro-review which you carried in your head back to irc 16:52:27 you are a hero among us all 16:52:44 well, I checked the Internet catalogue first to see if it was here 16:52:47 and it was 16:52:54 and it was about 20m away from where I was sitting 16:52:59 so I thought it was worth having a look 16:53:00 'kay 16:54:01 Were there pix? :o 16:54:10 Slereah_: line drawings 16:54:15 which were basically just letters 16:54:28 with teeth 16:54:34 LETTERS 16:54:36 WITH TEETH 16:54:36 awesome 16:54:38 Like a S with giant teeth? 16:54:44 no, the S was drawn as a snake 16:54:50 but it was only one page of pics, in an appendix 16:54:59 and the pics weren't as good as it sounds over IRC 16:55:07 Hm. 16:55:14 Too bad I can't find it online 16:55:17 and it isn't really worth the 300+ pages of typewritten text with no illustrations that come with it 16:55:27 ais523: you could have stolen it and uploaded it then put it back 16:55:29 :D 16:55:35 Well, lambda calculus is always interesting 16:55:38 tusho: no, where would I find a scanner? 16:55:45 But there's free ressources for that 16:55:55 besides, I didn't need to steal it 16:56:00 pikhq: pastebin.ca is mind-bendingly slow for me 16:56:01 it is, as I said, in a library 16:56:04 ais523: oh 16:56:06 that's a good point 16:56:09 and therefore I could take it out legally 16:56:11 and, um, you could mail it to me 16:56:16 But scanning it would be STEALING ITS COPYRIGHT D: 16:56:19 take it out -> mail to me -> I scan -> mail it back -> back in library 16:56:20 AWESOME 16:56:53 Or you could reproduce the entire page using MS Paint 16:57:01 Pixel by pixel 16:57:11 Yes 16:57:12 Slereah_: I don't even have that here without changing computer, I'd have to try to do it in the GIMP 16:57:21 Heh. 16:57:30 or in KolourPaint, I suppose, which I downloaded specifically for doing the sort of thing that Paint is actually useful for 16:57:32 You Linux people. 16:57:45 ais523, kthat ksounds knice! 16:57:55 AnMaster: KDE naming, you have to love it 16:58:03 AnMaster: lol, kde starts every name with a k 16:58:06 it's funny because it is 16:58:17 ais523, kyes kI kdo kas kI'm ka KKDE kuser 16:58:18 XD 16:58:20 not quite, the RSS reader is kalled Akregator 16:58:25 gnome names an awful lot of things starting with 'G' 16:58:27 KKKDE D: 16:58:28 oh, that kalled was a typo but I decided to leave it like that 16:58:29 though they're actually removing that 16:58:40 ais523, hah 16:58:51 it's easy to thinko like that when thinking about KDE 16:59:05 kit kis? 16:59:22 Kit? The Knight Rider car? 16:59:32 Slereah_, the what? 16:59:36 pikhq: alright, finally loaded 16:59:44 and that looks quite interesting 17:00:00 I can definitely see how that would be useful- loading kernel modules, for example? 17:00:11 RodgerTheGreat, link? 17:00:26 ...Knight Rider? 17:00:32 You know, with David Hasslehoff? 17:00:32 Slereah_, yes what is that? 17:00:37 Slereah_, who is that? 17:00:41 ... 17:00:42 http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215187150.html 17:00:56 Slereah_: he's a filthy swede 17:00:57 In what hut do you live? D: 17:00:58 ^ I re-pastebinned it because the original is slow as fuck 17:00:58 and therefore knows nothing 17:01:03 (My logic is impeccable, shut up) 17:01:05 Slereah_, I haven't watched TV except for news for the past 2 years 17:01:13 two years? 17:01:14 lmao 17:01:17 Knight Rider isn't recent at all, AnMaster 17:01:22 Come on, even in France it aired! 17:01:23 Slereah_, and I haven't been at a cinema for several years 17:01:39 "Knight Rider is an American television series that ran from September 26, 1982, to August 8, 1986." 17:01:39 he doesn't close the scope for foo, though 17:01:42 Slereah_, I got no clue, anyway remember that I'm 18, so it may be too old 17:01:58 probably want a ; in there somewhere for good coding practice 17:02:02 RodgerTheGreat, oh that, saw it before, loaded very quickly 17:02:10 odd 17:02:10 Well, it was about a talking car, and a special agent, solving crimes. 17:02:11 RodgerTheGreat, don't get it 17:02:15 From what I can remember. 17:02:24 Slereah_, odd 17:02:28 Slereah_, I got no clue, anyway remember that I'm 18, so it may be too old 17:02:35 i'm 12 and I know about knight rider 17:02:36 tusho, ? 17:02:36 jeez 17:02:41 tusho, you aren't 12 17:02:42 terrible excuse 17:02:42 :P 17:02:44 I don't believe that 17:02:51 AnMaster: oh, did you miss that? 17:02:52 hah 17:03:03 Send nude pictures of yourself to prove it. 17:03:12 While wearing a cockring, if available. 17:03:18 Slereah_: A++ AWESOME IDEA 17:03:20 tusho, guess: 20-30 years old 17:03:25 you that is 17:03:27 looks like he uses foo as a temporary variable, and as long as he's reading things into input he copies foo into bar... 17:03:33 AnMaster: thanks I guess 17:03:35 hm. I'm not entirely sure this will work as given 17:03:42 tusho, you are older? 17:03:45 40 is upper limit 17:04:02 AnMaster: 12 17:04:09 tusho, I don't believe that I said 17:04:18 ehird is older than 12 17:04:27 i know, everyone here totally says they're like 10 years younger than they really are right 17:04:36 well, apart from Slereah_ and oklopol 17:04:41 because they'd probably do that 17:04:46 I'm the reverse of 12. 17:04:52 tusho, well I wasn't lying about being 18... 17:05:01 but 21 I guess is reasonable 17:05:05 or 22 17:05:10 well, WIkipedia says I'm 21 17:05:17 and everyone knows it's right, right? 17:05:33 Is it? 17:05:43 on my age, yes 17:05:48 as it is with a lot of other things 17:05:50 What of the rest? 17:05:51 however it does make mistakes occasionally 17:06:00 Slereah_: I don't know, I haven't read that article recently 17:06:05 Is it true that you molested six children in the early 90's? 17:06:09 I looked at the age, and then closed it without reading the rest 17:06:16 but I know it hasn't been edited recently 17:06:18 and so it doesn't say that 17:06:28 * tusho adds that 17:06:32 joking, before ais523 says anything 17:06:45 no, what I'm REALLY adding is a link to your wikipedia user page 17:06:48 :-P 17:06:51 tusho: no, that could get you banned 17:06:57 "Alex Smith grew up in Birmingham, attending King Edward VI Five Ways, and was an alternate for the UK International Mathematical Olympiad team. His parents are both teachers at University of Birmingham." 17:07:00 whereas the first will merely get you blocked 17:07:02 ais523: i could like slap a joke in your face until you died 17:07:07 and you wouldn't notice 17:07:17 tusho: and I could deliberately miss the joke because i think it's funnier that way 17:07:20 and you still wouldn't notice 17:07:27 ais523: and I could deliberately respond to that seriously 17:07:31 because it's funnier that way 17:07:34 yes 17:07:35 and you'd respond probably joking again 17:07:38 and I would do the same 17:07:43 and I have finally closed off the loop 17:07:59 tusho: now make it into an esolang! 17:08:17 Hm. 17:08:23 ais523: LOS 17:08:26 Levels of Sarcasm/Jokes 17:08:35 I remember a page where the theme song of Knight Rider was beat boxed 17:08:39 you write a program by building up levels of sarcasm or jokes in intricite layers 17:08:43 the program terminates when it goes back to 0 17:08:44 Does anyone know the link? 17:09:15 Also, what level of irony would be Knight Rider in that language? 17:09:29 Slereah_: 7.3/x^(y/pi+e) 17:10:00 Knight Rider aired in Sweden, sez Wikpedia 17:10:01 Sweden Nattens riddare 17:10:01 (Knight of the Night) Subtitled The show has three names, "Nattens riddare", "Riddaren i natten" and "Knightrider". 17:10:23 swedish is such a silly language 17:10:26 it makes everything sound ridiculous 17:11:38 tusho, why do you think so? 17:11:38 pikhq: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215187799.html 17:11:48 AnMaster: RIDDAREN I NATTEN 17:11:53 tusho, yes and? 17:12:15 tusho, try to pronouce it in Swedish for gods sake 17:12:41 Swedish doesn't exist. 17:12:49 The Swedes are just making stuff up. 17:13:05 they actually use their skin patterns to communicate. 17:13:25 Yes, Swedes have a bright skin pattern that can be consciously modified3 17:13:35 Quite beautiful, really. 17:15:41 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:17:42 -!- Judofyr has quit (Client Quit). 17:22:06 RodgerTheGreat: Thanks for the commenting. 17:22:14 I wasn't exactly thinking it through all that well. . . 17:22:18 Hmm. 17:22:43 it helps me figure out other people's code 17:23:04 IDEA! 17:23:22 I have a way to allow pointer manipulation to a fair degree without making the language more complicated! 17:23:36 Yes? 17:24:03 make it so you can do something like "varname?" to store the address representing the pointer to a cell, rather than it's dereferenced value 17:24:25 thus creating a third "literal type" accepted by ? 17:24:35 the problem is it's ambiguous syntactically 17:25:00 but with this facility, it'd be pretty trivial to create a function called "dereference"... gimme a sec 17:25:52 And thereby get the 'pass by value' feature that I proposed. . . 17:25:54 RodgerTheGreat: why not provide a function called dereference[] 17:25:58 and just have it primitive :P 17:26:09 :p 17:26:14 tusho: you are completely missing the point, congrats 17:26:30 RodgerTheGreat: that's nice of you 17:26:31 mind explaining? 17:26:39 instead of, you know, just blankly asserting that 17:26:40 tusho: We have no primitive functions. 17:26:49 pikhq: why not? It'd make a lot of things simpler. 17:26:50 Like C. ;) 17:26:53 Than just piling on syntax... 17:27:02 pikhq: I didn't say it wouldn't be useful, I just said we needed a way of doing it that didn't make the language nasty 17:27:02 It's meant as a systems programming language. 17:27:30 We can't assume that there is *anything* supporting the code at all. 17:27:36 pikhq: Doesn't have to be. 17:27:40 Just make dereference[x] compile specially. 17:28:27 The road to hell is paved with special cases. 17:28:40 pikhq: Yes, like extra syntax 17:28:41 ;) 17:29:37 "Let's make the semantics funkier so the syntax is more sparse!" 17:29:45 http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215188885.html <- how about this? 17:30:20 doesn't actually need ? and is unambiguous 17:30:46 the limitation is that you can only get a pointer's address when you create a new variable, but this doesn't actually restrict what you can do 17:31:39 mm 17:31:45 I'm still thinking here... 17:37:46 jesus christ I'm an idiot 17:37:54 there are already indirection capabilities 17:39:03 it's always fun to realize your language is cleverer than you 17:39:11 yeah, give me a moment 17:41:11 what do you say to this? http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215189574.html 17:42:13 a little nastier than some of the previous code examples, visually, but you can completely hide this shit in functions like I just did 17:49:00 Is there a unicode char for - with a dot over it I wonder? 17:49:17 Slereah_: you could do it with combining chars 17:49:20 why do you want one, though 17:49:21 It's the symbol used for positive integer substraction apparently 17:49:40 positive integer subtraction? 17:50:05 You know, x-.y = x-y if x>y, and x-.y = 0 else 17:50:20 the only trick with the current schema is that everything is effectively already a pointer. By allowing variable initialization as a pointer's address, you can "back off" a step and gain access to the address, to manipulate. Then, naturally, you have to doubly dereference to get the final pointed value, so an extra #/; does the trick 17:50:35 I hope I'm not just incoherently babbling 17:50:52 Since recursive functions only use positive integer, it's used in many proofs. 17:51:06 Plus you need it to define equality recursively 17:57:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:58:46 RodgerTheGreat, where can I get the implementation for your language? 17:59:02 AnMaster: pikhq is working on the first implementation 17:59:13 RodgerTheGreat, open development I assume 17:59:16 so path to repo? 17:59:27 I'm not aware of one yet 17:59:32 AnMaster: RodgerTheGreat doesn't believe in version control systems, dunno about pikhq 17:59:40 but you ought to be able to get one in a few days 17:59:45 cvs, svn, bzr, mercurial, darcs (and even git if I have to) 18:00:04 RodgerTheGreat, what will it compile to? 18:00:07 C or asm? 18:00:17 our main target is x86 asm 18:00:33 RodgerTheGreat, llvm would be nice 18:01:00 if the project becomes popular, I'm sure we'll support more architectures/intermediary forms 18:01:40 RodgerTheGreat, do you support custom calling conventions? 18:01:50 hmm... I knew for a while that one of the cocreators of INTERCAL now works for Microsoft, but I just found out that the other now works for Google 18:01:54 this puts a whole new spin on things 18:02:05 ais523, hahah 18:02:07 AnMaster: the main goal for now is to support C calling conventions 18:02:19 RodgerTheGreat, there are several 18:02:31 RodgerTheGreat, on x86 that is 18:02:39 hm 18:02:55 on x86_64 there is one basically 18:03:20 RodgerTheGreat, anyway win32 api make the callee clean up the stack in non-varargs function 18:03:31 while on *nix it is always the caller that does it 18:03:39 iirc 18:04:12 RodgerTheGreat, cdecl vs. stdcall 18:04:20 stdcall is the one windows use 18:04:28 well, you'd have to ask pikhq about that 18:04:41 he isn't here 18:04:47 so relay it to him 18:04:49 afk 18:05:00 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:05:53 incidentally, source: http://www.techworld.com.au/article/251892/-z_programming_languages_intercal?pp=1&fp=2&fpid=-1 18:06:01 which is dated today 18:07:11 ais523: ”the most widely-used programming languages" 18:07:13 someone's on drugs 18:07:16 tusho: no 18:07:18 read more carefully 18:07:26 they did a lot of widely-used languages 18:07:33 and then decided it would be fun to do INTERCAL too 18:08:18 Our compiler converted the INTERCAL program to SNOBOL (actually SPITBOL, which is a compilable version of SNOBOL) and represented INTERCAL datatypes using character strings in which all the characters were "0"s and "1"s. 18:08:22 a true hero among men 18:08:32 tusho: that's actually a sane representation of data in INTERCAL 18:08:36 although not the one that C-INTERCAL uses 18:08:41 {Do you use either C-INTERCAL or CLC-INTERCAL currently? } 18:08:47 because there are so many bit-wise operations 18:08:57 ais523: i think that's the fanciest-deisgned page that mentions C-INTERCAL 18:08:58 :p 18:09:07 I'm glad they noticed CLC-INTERCAL too 18:09:13 someone's keeping up with the world of INTERCAL 18:09:20 most INTERCAL websites are stuck in the past 18:10:07 ais523: c-intercal.eso-std.org, if it ever comes to pass, should utilize ajax and have web 2.0 stylings 18:10:11 just for the sheer cognitive dissonance 18:10:18 it should also be itself written in INTERCAL 18:10:28 ais523: that's a bit harder. 18:10:35 i'll write it in something, you translate it. :P 18:10:40 yes, OK 18:10:43 probably in CLC-INTERCAL 18:10:53 partly because it's the wrong one 18:11:02 and partly because it's slightly better at outputting constant strings 18:11:20 ais523: and to run it, i'll translate clc-intercal to ruby 18:11:26 so that it can run on Passenger 18:11:34 (I may just make it shell out to perl; dunno) 18:11:35 tusho: it compiles into Perl, so you may have problems doing that 18:11:39 ais523, I'm reading that link now 18:11:40 fun 18:11:41 ais523: then I'll just interface with perl 18:11:47 "adding a style guide for INTERCAL to go alongside Google's guides for C++, Java and other languages" XD 18:11:49 wrap it in a Rack interface 18:11:53 and voila 18:12:01 a Ruby app running CLC-INTERCAL running the C-INTERCAL site 18:13:45 :D 18:13:54 -!- Judofyr has joined. 18:14:21 tusho: it's probably a bad thing that I have a shell-script which reads strings from a file, each of which has ID numbers, and outputs CLC-INTERCAL code designed to output each of those strings 18:14:44 ais523: yes 18:14:56 actually, not a shell-script 18:14:58 I wrote it in sed 18:15:08 but convickt does most of the work 18:15:28 ais523, ""the division routine of the standard INTERCAL library has a really cool hack that I hadn't seen before"" <-- what is that hack I wonder? 18:15:32 from the link you pasted 18:15:45 AnMaster: it's how to do a greater-than in INTERCAL 18:15:58 ais523, describe it? 18:16:03 basically, you look for the most significant bit that differs between the two numbers 18:16:09 the greater number will have a 1 in that bit 18:16:20 yes sounds sane, and? 18:16:28 well, it isn't really sane 18:16:34 I assume that is what a computer does internally? 18:16:35 that's the easiest way to do greater-than in INTERCAL 18:16:41 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:16:47 AnMaster: no, computers subtract and see if the answer is negative 18:16:54 that doesn't require doing bit-searches 18:16:58 ah 18:17:25 s/negative/overflows/ if you're using unsigned numbers 18:28:16 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:33:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:33:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:33:49 wb, pikhq 18:34:10 back 18:34:28 http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215189574.html <- have a look at this and read the logs- I think I have a solution to the pointer issue 18:38:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:38:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:45:38 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1""). 18:52:17 Man. 18:52:27 The Inspector Gadget theme is way better in French 18:52:37 It actually has lyrics. 18:54:04 Slereah_: dunanunanun INSPECTOR GADGET 19:01:58 Slereah_, what is that? 19:02:04 or rather 19:02:05 who is that 19:03:55 ... 19:04:02 You don't know Inspector Gadget either? 19:04:17 What did you do with your childhood, being a productive member of society? 19:04:19 GO GO GADGET SURPRISE 19:04:36 What do they show you for cartoons in Sweden? 19:04:53 Little blue communists! 19:05:07 http://youtube.com/watch?v=IOOPsMNiiIM 19:05:13 Come on, there even was a movie of it! 19:05:33 The plot is that it's a dude with a robotic body fighting crime. 19:05:43 Even given the subject that movie was pretty terrible :P 19:05:51 But he's retarded, so it's actually his niece and the dog of the niece doing the actual crime fighting. 19:06:29 i loved inspector gadget so much 19:06:48 that intro is crazy though 19:06:50 the guy sounds mentally ill 19:07:07 Well, at least there's lyrics :o 19:07:14 who needs lyrics 19:07:21 Me. 19:07:38 I want to sing it without looking too retarded. 19:07:43 it totally blew my mind at the edit of the credits sequence when it said '1984' 19:07:44 i was like 19:07:49 I can't just sing "INSPECTOR GADGET WOO HOO3 19:07:50 HOLY SHIT THERE WERE PEOPLE IN 1984?????????????? 19:08:01 TELEVISIONS??????? 19:08:07 THE WORLD WAS IN _COLOUR_????????? 19:08:10 i almost died 19:08:29 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:09:31 AnMaster. 19:09:34 Answer us. 19:09:44 What the hell did you watch during your childhood. 19:09:46 yeah, what did you do 19:09:52 maybe he is like actually 3 19:09:55 and he's some kind of supercoder 19:09:56 Slereah_, watch? I didn't have TV 19:10:10 ok 19:10:12 maybe he's like 104 19:10:17 Well that would explain it. 19:10:17 that would work too 19:10:33 I mean, not knowing Inspector Gadget or Knight Rider? 19:10:43 tusho, nah just high hills and around where I lived so no TV was possible 19:10:44 That takes some hermit powers. 19:10:55 Slereah_: i'm a hermit and I know about them 19:11:00 tusho, nor mobile phone 19:11:16 I live in a town these days though 19:11:33 AnMaster : Go on the pirate bay 19:11:42 And download every Inspector Gadget cartoons. 19:11:46 Slereah_, no time, reading some interesting coding standard documents atm 19:11:47 Slereah_: SOUND ADVICE. 19:11:48 Also Knight Rider. 19:11:50 busy 19:12:03 AnMaster: I'm sure they're like 100x more fun than inspector gadget 19:12:06 Slereah_, also that would be illegal 19:12:11 They're thrilling and exciting! 19:12:14 tusho, what? US military C++ specs 19:12:18 quite interesting to read 19:12:20 public ons 19:12:22 ones* 19:12:24 What will you do if a guy asks you about Inspector Gadget at gunpoint, AnMaster? 19:12:32 A guy LIKE ME 19:12:39 Yeah anyone got a gun to lend me? 19:12:41 Slereah_, Use material arts 19:12:47 * AnMaster knows Aikido 19:12:48 MATERIAL ARTS 19:12:51 material arts 19:12:52 ahahahaha 19:13:00 AnMaster is a materialist 19:13:03 AnMaster: FYI, martial arts aren't very useful when you've just been shot 19:13:09 He uses some form of Marxist martial art. 19:13:11 Unless you're in a kung-fu movie. 19:13:12 tusho, agree 19:13:13 Marxial art. 19:13:15 haha 19:13:17 THE MORE YOU KNOW! 19:14:02 Fun fact : One of the top dude for "Hand to hand combat killing in a situation of actual war" didn't use martial arts at all. 19:14:09 He just strangled the dudes. 19:14:52 Slereah_: I should try that with ais523 19:15:09 Well, you could also use a gun 19:15:13 It's even better 19:15:22 Yeah more effective I guess 19:15:33 do you think he knows intricate details of each episode of inspector gadget? 19:15:46 he'd better unless he's like some kind of extreme masochist who loves being shot 19:16:22 Well, he seems like a smart lad, solving incredible problems of the 2,3 machine and all 19:16:32 He's probably wise on the whole Inspector Gadget thing. 19:16:36 Yes true 19:21:26 hey it's #friendsofcctoide 19:22:28 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:23:21 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 19:24:27 cctoide: what 19:35:01 cctoide: what 19:36:59 i = v[i++]; 19:37:00 i = ++i + 1; 19:37:00 p->mem_func(*p++); 19:37:01 hahah 19:37:18 3 undefined 19:37:34 p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) 19:37:44 tusho, evil! 19:37:44 I HAVE CREATED A MONSTER 19:37:54 AnMaster: it is coming to defeat us all 19:37:56 ..p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) 19:37:57 ....p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) 19:37:59 ......p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) 19:38:03 (it's walking oh god) 19:38:04 ........p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) 19:38:05 ..........p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) 19:38:06 ............p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) 19:38:06 hah 19:38:13 * AnMaster slays it 19:38:13 ............p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) <( ROAR ) 19:38:18 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH IT'S ROARING 19:38:24 ............p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) <( ROAR )|X 19:38:29 (that's your slaying being deflected) 19:38:32 ............p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) <( ROAR ).............|X 19:38:33 ............p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) <( ROAR )......................|X 19:38:36 ............p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) <( ROAR ) 19:38:40 ..............p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) 19:38:41 ................p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) 19:38:42 * AnMaster gets out his trusty Snickersnee 19:38:42 ..................p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) 19:38:44 ....................p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) 19:38:45 ......................p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) 19:38:46 ........................p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) 19:38:48 ..........................p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) 19:38:49 ............................p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) 19:38:55 ............................p->mem_func(*p++, i = v[++i] + 1) <( ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAR MOTHERFUCKER) 19:39:41 actually I meant vorpal blade 19:39:45 * AnMaster confused poems 19:39:51 "The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!" 19:39:54 is the correct quote 19:39:56 * tusho eats AnMaster 19:39:59 somehow I messed that up 19:40:00 OM NOM NOM NOM NOOM 19:40:06 * AnMaster cause indigestion 19:40:30 * tusho EATS INDIGESTION FOR BREAKFAST 19:40:35 tusho : WTF ARE YOU DOING 19:40:43 Slereah_: WTF ARE YOU DOING MAN 19:40:48 Noooo 19:40:54 You don't know the thing! 19:40:59 It goes like this : 19:41:05 1 : OM NOM NOM 19:41:12 2 : WTF R U DOING 19:41:25 3 : EATIN SUM [item being eaten] 19:41:33 Slereah_: i liek kittens 19:41:48 *turtles 19:41:57 no 19:41:58 kittens 19:41:59 fuck you 19:42:21 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:42:47 * Slereah_ fucks self 19:44:02 tusho, what?! I didn't know that 19:44:12 kittens fuck you <-- they do? 19:44:19 well I'm glad I don't have a cat 19:44:27 AnMaster: oh yes, yes they do 19:44:29 all the time 19:48:43 AnMaster : Man, in what kind of hut do you live in Sweden? 19:48:57 Have you never seen the rampant cat raping problem? 19:50:49 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 19:53:25 Slereah_, hah 19:54:23 You would know if you watched Inspector Gadgety 19:54:34 Slereah_, what about turtles then? 19:54:36 do they too? 19:55:27 hm I just got an idea: C with Objects 19:55:31 it would be less messy than C++ 19:55:39 and easier to set up than D 19:55:41 :D 19:55:51 (yes I know C++ was called C with objects once) 19:59:09 much smarter idea: help people make Tango work on x86-64 19:59:20 Deewiant: no, that'd involve TOUCHING D 19:59:26 how can AnMaster do that, with how much it is awful! 19:59:56 yes, writing your own language from scratch is a much better idea... at least you won't get CONTAMINATED 20:00:22 Deewiant: it'll be able to write kernels, too 20:00:28 that's important when writing a befunge interpreter 20:01:16 true 20:01:23 (but I note that one can write kernels in D, it's been done) 20:01:32 Deewiant: but it's NOT EASY 20:01:34 it has to be EASY 20:01:40 how will we develop kernels otherwise? 20:01:46 are you a kernel-hating COMMUNIST? 20:01:56 oh noes! I'm caught! 20:02:00 * Deewiant runs 20:02:14 Deewiant: I bet you don't even make sure your C code runs faster than POSIX 1.0 interface test module! 20:02:24 Deewiant, I think D will be nice 20:02:28 once it works properly 20:02:37 however phobos already does that iirc? 20:02:51 once it WORKS PROPERLY 20:02:52 tusho, IDEA: BEFUNGE KERNEL! 20:02:55 it is UNFIXABLY BROKEN 20:03:01 BEFUNGE KERNEL YAY! 20:03:01 because it doesn't work PERFECTLY on x86-64 20:03:04 that would rock 20:03:15 I suspect that the main reason phobos works in cases where tango doesn't is that phobos uses the C stdlib to implement much of its functionality 20:03:21 whereas tango uses kernel calls directly 20:03:33 Deewiant, eww 20:03:40 Deewiant, kernel may change 20:03:47 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:03:48 Deewiant, so tango will be hard to port to freebsd and so on 20:03:49 you know what I meant 20:03:50 I see 20:03:51 POSIX 20:03:52 nice... 20:03:56 and WinAPI 20:04:07 Deewiant, hm? doesn't both use libc routines? 20:04:17 you just said tango does syscalls itself 20:04:34 Deewiant, and no I don't know what you meant 20:04:51 what I meant is open(2) instead of open(3) 20:04:54 er 20:04:55 fopen(3) 20:05:01 ah right 20:07:43 (and on Windows, that'd be CreateFileW) 20:08:36 * tusho wonders if it's reasonable to require people posting on his blog to have an openid 20:08:38 (comments that is) 20:11:18 I think Tango only has a single line of code that doesn't build on x86_64 properly. 20:11:32 I would have fixed it if I knew WTF was going on in said line. 20:11:40 I pasted 4 open Tango tickets regarding x86_64 yesterday 20:11:44 pikhq: What is the line? 20:11:45 don't know which ones are critical, though. 20:12:00 Don't remember. 20:12:01 And does anyone have an opinion on what I said? :P 20:12:14 Somewhere in the regexp functions. 20:12:17 I comment on blogs only very rarely 20:12:20 and I don't have an openid 20:12:29 so my opinion is probably fairly worthless. 20:12:39 Deewiant: It only takes a second to get one: https://www.myopenid.com/ 20:12:47 why get one when I don't need one 20:13:00 True. But, like you said, you're unlikely to comment on my blog. :P 20:16:55 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:19:48 idea for crazy versioning system for software: 20:20:42 anyone re: the openid thing? 20:20:48 instead of alpha, beta, and so on, use omega, and backwards 20:21:23 so it would be: omega, psi, chi, phi, ... 20:24:07 :\ 20:27:23 -!- puzzlet has joined. 20:27:28 tusho, what is openid? 20:27:28 ... 20:27:35 Does it even go up to gamma? 20:27:37 AnMaster: yeah, I don't think I need your opinion 20:27:38 :p 20:27:40 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:27:44 Slereah_, huh? 20:27:47 Slereah_, what does? 20:27:59 I mean, I thought it was alpha->beta->finished 20:28:41 Hey, tusho. 20:28:50 Slereah_, gamma would be release candidate? 20:28:50 Let's talk of old cartoons to confuse AnMaster. 20:28:58 I dunno. 20:28:59 afk 20:42:30 Anywooon? 20:47:07 WOOOOOOOOOOO 20:47:12 Anyone? 20:47:15 Inspector Gadget! 20:47:17 WOO HOO 20:47:52 Anyone what? 20:48:07 ANSAH MY KWESTON 20:48:09 Actually wait. 20:48:14 oklopol: Do you have an OpenID? 20:53:16 oklopol: Oi. 20:58:30 oklopol: Ping 21:01:33 hommelette 21:02:51 cctoide: do you have an openid 21:03:27 probably, since I registered for an LJ account once 21:03:33 dinnertime 21:17:41 -!- RedDak has joined. 21:18:02 Slereah_: Some free software does alpha -> beta -> release candidate -> release. 21:30:13 But there is no gamma->delta->... 21:42:31 pikhq, so do I 21:42:32 indeed 21:42:42 or "pre-release" 21:42:48 depends on what project 22:17:42 -!- Sargun has joined. 22:19:08 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 22:20:08 -!- djgera has joined. 22:28:11 -!- djgera has left (?). 22:32:52 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:04:01 -!- ihope has joined. 23:08:22 oklopol: ping 23:09:50 -!- Judofyr has quit (Client Quit). 23:16:00 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:24:06 -!- ihope_ has joined. 23:26:02 -!- ihope has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.15/2008062306]"). 23:34:11 o 23:35:37 oklopol: do you have an openid 23:36:06 o no. 23:36:16 unless you can have it without knowing it. 23:36:33 oklopol: if you read the most awesome post about oko code on my blog and you wanted to leave a comment about how much you love me 23:36:45 would you still do it if you had to take about 2 seconds to get an openid at https://www.myopenid.com/ 23:36:49 before you could post it 23:37:40 oklopol: hmmmmmmmmmm? 23:37:54 whyaaaaaaa 23:37:56 lessee 23:38:04 i'm really just popping by 23:38:17 this is still super important <______________________________________________< 23:39:35 oklopol: WELL??????????????????????????!111111111111 ;_________; 23:40:11 :D 23:40:16 i registered 23:40:22 oklopol: oh good. so you would take the time 23:40:24 excellent 23:40:25 didn't get the confirmation thingie yet. 23:40:37 oklopol: o, btw. this is what you can now put into any openid enabled site 23:40:40 oklopol.myopenid.com 23:40:43 and use it without signing up 23:40:44 yaey 23:41:05 Which basically amounts to putting oklopol.myopenid.com in the OpenID field on my blog, really. :P 23:41:54 heh. 23:42:06 i made it send the confirmation to oklopol@gmain.com :) 23:42:14 GMAIN 23:42:16 :D 23:42:18 :DDD 23:42:44 i typoed gmail->gmain already once today 23:42:48 oklopol: when you get it working make sure you set your name thing to 'oklopol' 23:42:54 otherwise on my blahhg it'll show as oklopol.myopenid.com 23:42:59 which sux more than 'oklopol' 23:43:27 i don't really know how to get it working now 23:43:44 oklopol: you could resign up as oklofok 23:44:05 hmm indeed 23:44:12 but that's lame 23:44:15 surely there's something you can do 23:44:17 but i'm going to sleep now, so another day. 23:44:19 probably 23:44:29 they will hopefully drop me after a while 23:44:43 doubt it 2008-07-05: 00:28:49 0 00:44:00 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 01:26:40 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:44:23 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:44:28 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:51:47 -!- tusho has quit. 01:54:27 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:54:31 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:56:05 -!- Parma-Quendion has changed nick to Quendus. 05:07:27 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:39:27 -!- GreaseMonkey has changed nick to DarkPants. 06:37:04 -!- DarkPants has quit ("Remote closed the previous member app"). 06:40:27 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 07:15:41 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:00:56 tusho: i have openid. 09:01:39 also, i wouldn't say it's bad to require openid, not that hard to sign up for 09:02:30 (especially if the alternative is to require one to register on your blog separately :P) 09:03:46 why didn't that bitch actually link to the blogger. 09:04:07 hmm 09:04:17 linked earlier, perhaps i need to logsearch 09:10:11 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:17:19 found nothing, darn 09:18:38 -!- TheBlunderbuss has joined. 09:19:22 Slashdot led me here :o 09:19:53 TheBlunderbuss, heh? 09:19:58 we are slashdoted? 09:20:03 wtf 09:20:03 Not directly 09:20:08 oh? 09:20:20 http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/04/229213 09:20:24 I don't think we can take a slashdotish storm 09:20:53 TheBlunderbuss, yes I have seen the article yesterday 09:20:56 Article about spoof language. Comments containing brainfsck and whitespace. ##brainfuck mentions this channel in the topic *shrug* 09:21:03 hah 09:21:12 TheBlunderbuss, yes this is about all esoteric languages 09:21:21 from intercal to befunge and everything else too :) 09:21:35 Dear God 09:21:57 TheBlunderbuss, I myself like befunge 09:22:08 I like the idea though - some with the whole sort of romantic, industrial sense of trying to keep compiler size down. 240 bytes, shit. 09:22:19 * AnMaster has coded a fast interpreter for it (don't slashdot or digg it or anything, the server can't take that!) 09:22:25 google for cfunge 09:23:04 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 09:23:33 yes that too 09:23:40 I know of it 09:24:06 Just my reference 09:24:26 I don't want to be slashdotted. 09:24:33 If I get slashdotted, I'll scream. 09:24:39 "Befunge ... [invented] with the goal of being as difficult to compile as possible. " 09:24:53 Haha like it's from fiction 09:25:12 TheBlunderbuss, eh? 09:25:20 and yes it was invented with that in mind 09:25:37 I think it could be possible to JIT it though 09:25:43 but I lack the knowledge to do that 09:25:54 JIT? 09:26:19 Slereah_, JIT compile it 09:26:21 just in time 09:26:22 These languages are like they're lifted from science fiction. Ohh I'll have a good time telling my buddy about these :) 09:26:30 like java does with it's bytecode and such 09:27:00 Nah, they're lifted from incredibly stupid ideas 09:27:07 -!- deveah has joined. 09:27:22 mornin dudes 09:27:28 "Hey guys, let's make a language based on that obscure computing model" 09:27:43 "Hey dudes, let's make a language based on a stupid theme" 09:27:45 deveah, late morning :) 09:27:58 ooh yes 09:28:03 well it's 11:27 for me 09:28:07 TheBlunderbuss, check taxi on the esolang wiki 09:28:13 that is a stupid theme one 09:28:15 XD 09:28:37 XD 09:28:40 This is great. 09:28:40 Slereah_, I find Taxi to be one of the best theme languages 09:28:51 where's ma brotha when you need him? 09:28:57 And also http://esolangs.org/wiki/X-D a language based on emoticons :D 09:29:15 * AnMaster looks 09:29:26 Check out Rube, too, it's quite awesome 09:29:54 oh yes the "warehouse paradigm" 09:29:55 XD 09:31:14 Taxi looks fun! 09:31:32 Also check out NTCM and Lazy Birds, which are awesome because they're mine 09:31:43 ha 09:31:44 you know, altrough programmers are usually hardcore, i find you guys pretty "calm" 09:31:56 eh? 09:32:00 What do you mean by hardcore 09:32:35 Slereah_, ntcm does look interesting 09:32:39 verbally violent and capable of doing programming shit noone thought it would be possible 09:32:57 Lazybird. Cool :) 09:32:59 Slereah_, multiple memory segments basically 09:33:35 Well, I actually did it because I couldn't understand parts of Turing's article 09:33:44 Slereah_, oh? 09:33:51 Plus, the challenge is to not use the multiple tapes! 09:34:00 Since everything can be done on one. 09:34:22 Slereah_, yes but why did you make it then? 09:34:26 There's actually features that aren't discussed on the page because they don't work so well or they're OS-specific. 09:34:34 oh? 09:34:37 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbrain two commands! 09:34:40 Well, I wanted it to be complete. 09:34:49 yes of course 09:35:05 you could just do brainfuck + 2 commands to move up/down between the tapes 09:35:13 Yeah. The Love Machine 9000 (as is its real name) has a musical command. 09:35:28 Brainfuck is actually not at all a Turing machine. 09:35:42 Slereah_, oh? 09:35:45 You can write notes on the tape, and the interpreter would read them with the PC speaker 09:35:58 But in my interpreter, it uses winsound, so it doesn't work on Linux 09:36:01 Slereah_, eh read with pc speaker? 09:36:11 it is a speaker not a mic! 09:36:16 sure they logically work the same 09:36:24 but you can't listen to the pc speaker afaik 09:36:24 It reads the notes on the tape 09:36:31 Then plays them on the PC Speaker 09:36:35 and then? 09:36:44 Slereah_: doesn't work on Linux !? :O 09:36:48 and then you enjoy the fine music 09:36:59 Slereah_, so how is it a programming language? 09:37:03 winsound is windows specific (It's a python library) 09:37:06 pooort! 09:37:10 you mean the notes have side effects? 09:37:33 Nah. I just put them there to play the Monkey Island theme on a Turing machine 09:37:40 I still have the program somewhere. 09:38:24 is MIDI turing complete? 09:38:27 I guess not 09:38:33 Another feature that isn't on the wiki is the 2D option. 09:38:43 I never could get it to work right. 09:38:50 Slereah_, this is all NTCM? 09:38:56 Yes. 09:39:05 Slereah_, port it to POSIX :) 09:39:18 I do'nt even know what that is 09:39:32 POSIX as in FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris and so on 09:39:34 a standard 09:39:45 all (modern) *nix are POSIX 09:40:19 Slereah_, describes stuff like what libc functions should exist, how sockets should work, how the shell should work and so on 09:40:21 Here's a picture of the 2D version : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Hello.png 09:40:40 I was never able to get it to work correctly 09:40:43 Slereah_, what does UPP mean there? 09:40:47 UPP is Swedish for up btw 09:41:01 upp ner (up down) 09:41:27 Slereah_, why the extra P as I don't think that is Swedish? 09:41:30 Almost every instruction is 2 letters long, AnMaster. 09:41:42 Slereah_, it looks like 3 letters in that screenshot 09:41:42 Except for the musical notes. 09:41:46 No. 09:41:53 It's Up and Print space 09:41:56 ah 09:42:56 Here it is without spaces : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Hello2.png 09:43:43 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Omgrofl 09:43:55 Slereah_, why is there an odd line on it? 09:44:04 of white dots 09:44:15 That's the print screen of Linux. 09:44:26 TheBlunderbuss, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Perl too 09:44:32 Slereah_, eh? 09:44:34 The mouse cursor leaves a trail for some reason 09:44:39 No idea why 09:44:43 Slereah_, oh, never seen that on Linux 09:45:11 Slereah_, what terminal are you using? 09:45:19 Kubuntu 09:45:21 I don't see it in either xterm or konsole 09:45:22 Perl is esoteric? 09:45:25 Slereah_, what terminal 09:45:29 TheBlunderbuss, that is the joke... duh :P 09:45:44 Hey it's late. It went over my head. 09:45:59 Slereah_: is compiz running? 09:46:19 Slereah_, I asked what terminal, not what distro btw 09:46:33 Well I don't know what it means 09:46:39 TheBlunderbuss, well perl has in some parts an esoteric syntax 09:46:45 -!- deveah has left (?). 09:46:51 Slereah_, well does it say xterm? 09:46:57 Slereah_, or konsole? 09:46:59 or what? 09:47:11 Konsole, I think 09:47:21 ah, well I guess what TheBlunderbuss suggested 09:47:23 I can't check, because I can't access it no more. 09:47:42 The Linux, that is. 09:48:22 ah 09:48:32 Was it a recent Kubuntu? Like hardy? 09:48:54 I think. 09:49:01 Does it matter? 09:49:07 It's not like I can go back on it! 09:51:41 Yeah, because my compiz suggestion doesn't hold water if you weren't using that version, where it's on by default. It wreaks all kinds of havok on Wine 09:51:57 Can cause other display issues. 09:54:22 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 09:56:48 I'd like to redo the dual booting thing, but my hard drive seems brokin D: 09:57:29 :-\ 09:57:42 MBR? 09:57:52 wot? 09:57:59 I don't know computers, dude. 09:58:02 Remember this. 09:58:15 That seems kind of strange! 09:58:19 Indeed. 09:58:31 But esolangs can also be done using computation theory! 09:59:06 Kinda like a composer who doesn't know how a piano works 09:59:12 As with the current project : http://esolangs.org/wiki/Limp 10:00:04 Nothing in my languages use more than computational models and some sort of I/O. 10:00:21 It can still be a bitch to program though. 10:01:45 Here's a good themed http://esolangs.org/wiki/DOG 10:01:57 These are great. Yeah my friend will be impressed. 10:02:58 I only tried one themed language.It is horrible D: 10:02:59 http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Slereah/Arithmetica 10:03:56 just look at all those greek symbols! 10:04:36 I never could find a way to express priority 10:05:00 There's no grouping symbol in western mathematics until the 12th century 10:05:26 Like a bracket or parenthesis? 10:06:05 Yeah. 10:06:19 It was actually a bar over the grouped symbols first. 10:06:27 Parenthesis are... 15th century? 10:06:29 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:06:30 I forgot. 10:07:03 "Parentheses ( ) are "found in rare instances as early as the sixteenth century" (Cajori vol. 1, page 390)." 10:08:26 Before the Renaissance, western mathematics was pretty shitty on the notation side. 10:08:50 And before the Arithmetica, there were pretty much no notations at all. 10:08:57 Everything was in word form. 10:09:15 Slereah_, you don't need (), you could use RPN 10:10:09 Brainfuck is turing-complete, isn't it? 10:10:15 yes 10:10:17 why? 10:10:18 Thanks 10:10:22 Some site said 'Brainfuck is a minimalistic but almost Turing-complete programming language' 10:10:43 jamesstanley, of course no actual implementation is turing complete 10:10:48 Oh? 10:10:50 Why not? 10:10:51 as computers doesn't have infinite memory 10:10:55 Oh. 10:10:59 you need infinite memory to be turing complete 10:11:00 AnMaster : No I can't. 10:11:05 Greek math isn't RPN 10:11:06 which the language itself allows 10:11:10 OK 10:11:11 Thanks 10:11:31 Also infinite times 10:11:37 It can be rough on most computers. 10:11:47 jamesstanley, any implementation, like any computer, will be a bounded-storage machine 10:11:54 Yeah. 10:11:56 and yes you need infinite time too 10:12:05 I thought it was reasonable to call something turing-complete without that, that's all 10:12:22 jamesstanley, but yes brainfuck is Turing complete 10:12:27 Thanks 10:12:36 I once tried to make a language that had infinite memory without infinite storage. 10:12:42 Using time travel 10:12:48 But this was met with failure. 10:13:54 Heh I really like this DOG language. Cute! 10:14:06 -!- RobHu has joined. 10:14:09 Really, when I read those articles on theoretical machines better than Turing machines, I can't help but think that you first need to do somethig really TC D: 10:14:39 What is the name of the esoteric language that consists of coming on IRC and specifying your program (in this channel I think) ? 10:15:47 IRP 10:15:53 And it is on #irp 10:16:01 Thank you! 10:16:10 What's this now? 10:16:12 It used to be here, but then got annoying. 10:16:22 http://esolangs.org/wiki/IRP 10:16:55 haha that's awesome 10:17:15 IRP also offers great games 10:17:20 Usually involving cakes. 10:17:41 :) 10:17:58 Self interpreters are also quite easy. 10:18:06 This search all started when someone sent me a link to the Brainfuck interpreter someone recently released that is written in LOLcode 10:18:09 "Dude, be an IRP interpreter" 10:18:29 There's Brainfuck interpreters in a bajillio languages 10:18:34 There are, like 3 people in there :-\ 10:18:42 No, exactly! 10:18:47 Yeah, IRP isn't popular anymore 10:19:02 Brainfuck is usually the first language implemented on a new esolang 10:19:07 Or tag systems 10:19:23 I see that 10:19:51 Then you've got nuts like Oerjan who implements Unlambda on INTERCAL D: 10:21:23 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainloller thaaat's cool 10:22:00 Kinda like the SecondLife sculpted prims. 10:24:15 oh you programmers make me laugh. 10:24:41 -!- RobHu has quit. 10:29:40 * TheBlunderbuss discovers Quines. Holy cow. 10:30:10 But remember the noblest quine of all : the cheating quine. 10:30:36 the one that merely prints a file containing the source? 10:30:54 There are a number of ways to cheat. 10:31:09 You can just use a language that can literaly prints the source code, yes 10:31:20 The empty string is also a quine in many languages 10:31:43 And the most cheating quine I've ever seen is the kind where you use error messages. 10:32:22 Error message... like "command not recognized" ? 10:32:39 Well, for instance. 10:32:57 You write "Command not recognized" as your program, and the interpreter outputs that. 10:33:09 exactly what I was thinking 10:33:42 They have a special name, but I forgot 10:33:44 hehe yaaay DOG quine. 10:33:57 AnMaster: meh, evidently rafb only holds pastes for a day... you wouldn't happen to have any CCBI-breaking TURT code still around? 10:34:07 Deewiant, I do 10:34:08 a sec 10:34:51 http://rafb.net/p/GxNjSm13.html 10:34:54 I could use the quine but it's a bit too big :-) 10:35:09 and have you gotten it to work yet? 10:35:19 http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/self_kim.txt 10:35:21 Deewiant, haven't had time to test 10:35:22 There it is. 10:35:24 have been so busy 10:35:26 and thanks for that 10:37:28 Deewiant, currently configuring 2.6.25 kernel 10:38:14 and now building it 10:42:18 Deewiant, note that I expect there are bugs in my TURT too 10:42:28 Deewiant, however I will be away next week so 10:42:54 Deewiant, please point out any bugs today :) 10:43:11 Deewiant, and yes I know bg color is broken in both ccbi and cfunge 10:43:27 not "broken", just "forgot to implement it" :-P 10:43:31 What separates a 2 command language from just binary? Is it because the language is mathematical, and a binary is machine code? 10:43:38 Deewiant, svg doesn't support it 10:43:45 just draw a rectangle 10:43:56 Deewiant, that doesn't fill it all 10:44:04 TheBlunderbuss : Binary is a way to code it. 10:44:06 why not 10:44:17 1 and 0 don't have any meaning by themselves 10:44:21 TheBlunderbuss, why not use ternary? 10:44:22 :D 10:44:25 They're not commands 10:44:36 Slereah_, indeed 10:44:42 Slereah_, you could encode it as graycode too 10:44:50 Gaycode yourself 10:44:56 Slereah_, what? 10:45:03 Slereah_, google for graycode 10:45:05 it is quite cool 10:45:16 I don't follow :-\ 10:45:27 Deewiant, I guess the same size as the viewbox 10:45:35 of course 10:45:39 Deewiant, however I think having transparent image is cool 10:45:42 TheBlunderbuss : In Brainfuck, + alone makes sense. 10:45:46 It increments a cell. 10:45:59 in some binary encoding, 1 alone doesn't mean anything. 10:46:02 Deewiant, actually an idea would be to make that the default I guess 10:46:04 Yeah but the computer has to know what to do with it. 10:46:19 Well, the computer is just a way to implement it. 10:46:23 Think more abstractly. 10:46:36 Deewiant, and only if someone used the N instruction then draw the rectangle 10:46:52 AnMaster: I already did it like that :-) 10:46:59 Deewiant, doing it too 10:47:05 In order to give the computer instruction, it needs binary, right? 10:47:20 Depends. 10:47:27 You can build computers without binary. 10:47:43 hell, back in the days, computing models were meant to be used by people. 10:47:45 How do you go from a language to something the computer can understand? 10:47:55 The computer was a dude that had a pen and some paper 10:48:28 A bunch of dudes, for more complex algorithms. "Jane, you take all even numbers, and subtract five. Billy you take Janes numbers and..." 10:48:53 Plenty of algorithms are used by dudes! 10:49:00 Division, multiplication. 10:49:11 But computing models weren't meant to actually compute 10:49:21 Getting off topic here. 10:49:28 They were just theoretical bases to think on what it means to compute 10:49:35 There's no set topic here. 10:49:40 I mean currently. 10:49:50 Also, as you might now, not all computers are binary. 10:50:00 Brainfuck needs a compiler. So what does it compile to? 10:50:12 Well, machine code in most cases. 10:50:18 which consists of? 10:50:30 Binary. But this is implementation specific. 10:51:12 You could build for instance a mechanical machine for Brainfuck. 10:51:14 A single command in the language could compile into a huge block of 1's and 0's, yes? 10:51:34 Depends. With BF, you can go by with 3. 10:51:44 Or 2, if you use reduced versions. 10:52:00 Because someone asked me "if you have a 2-command language, why not just use binary?" 10:52:24 Well, you can. But 2 commands doesn't mean 2 symbols very often. 10:52:43 I'm not sure there's actually any 2 commands - 2 symbols languages. 10:53:00 That's what I told him. 10:53:04 Because there's the dreaded END OF FILE 10:53:11 heh 10:53:36 Even if you manage to trim it down to two nullary commands, you'll need end of file with 2 commands. 10:53:58 Lazy K gets by with 3 symbols - 2 functions and no need for end of file 10:54:38 Iota has 1 functions - 2 symbols and no need for EOF, but I feel it's a little cheaty. 10:54:48 It has underlying lambdas. 10:55:59 Well nooow it's time for bed 10:56:07 Bai* 10:57:07 Deewiant, ok now cfunge got it too 10:57:08 :P 10:59:19 -!- TheBlunderbuss has left (?). 11:31:21 Deewiant, the turt quine almost works 11:31:25 there are still some issues 11:31:36 odd horizontal lines on top of everything 11:32:38 I'm in the process of patching Tango so that my code compiles ^_^ 11:32:44 Deewiant, heh 11:32:54 Deewiant, does the TURT quine work for you? 11:33:01 well 11:33:04 given that my code doesn't compile 11:33:06 http://rafb.net/p/hjXLXn25.html 11:33:08 :) 11:33:08 I have no way of knowing 11:33:17 Deewiant, however that got odd horizontal lines 11:33:18 -!- jix has joined. 11:33:23 I think the code doesn't end the path when it should 11:33:34 have to figure out a test case for it 11:33:52 Deewiant, try to watch it, though it is huge 11:34:00 err 11:34:02 that looks wrong 11:34:35 http://rafb.net/p/zRq0yD49.html WARNING 256 KB 11:35:02 Deewiant, that is cfunge output 11:35:05 which is slightly off 11:35:36 Deewiant, however I got no idea if that is on fingerprint side or not 11:35:52 I mean is the quine correct 11:37:21 Deewiant, current output look more like hieroglyphs heh 11:47:40 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:19:43 AnMaster: okay, starting to look at your befunge finally... 12:20:08 first of all, you clear the background to color = 18 and then don't set a pen colour 12:20:40 so if the default pen colour is black (a reasonable assumption, though undefined) one can't really see much of anything there. :-P 12:25:10 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:44:46 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:45:03 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 12:59:07 Deewiant, hm 12:59:15 Deewiant, yes agree, fixed version a sec 12:59:29 Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/9bpxzO20.html 12:59:32 that is better 12:59:38 I did that myself some hours ago 13:00:44 um wait 13:00:52 is it RBG or RGB? 13:01:05 ah 13:01:15 then the line saying "green tint" should say "blue tint" 13:03:00 http://rafb.net/p/Gs1Ywl27.html 13:03:01 better? 13:06:42 -!- olsner has joined. 13:09:54 -!- RedDak has joined. 13:16:38 hrrm how to rewrite this as non-recursive: http://rafb.net/p/G3hrFO24.html 13:19:59 -!- Corun has joined. 13:25:52 what does static void mean? 13:25:57 As opposed to void 13:26:28 Slereah_, static means local to file 13:40:55 what language? 13:43:20 I assume C or something. 13:43:30 But I am utterly terrible at guessing D: 13:54:15 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 13:54:32 -!- deveah has joined. 14:14:25 -!- deveah has left (?). 14:15:48 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:19:34 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:35:02 whee, fixed TURT 14:37:43 Deewiant lieks turtles. 14:38:09 the quine does indeed seem to result in a bunch of lines 14:39:58 *series of tubes 14:40:46 Deewiant, nice you fixed it, now you are conforming again (more or less) 14:41:03 and the output in general is incorrect, the letters don't look like in the example 14:41:04 as for the lines, not sure of the cause, I guess either the quine assumes a off by one error in paths, or we do? 14:41:21 yes that is odd 14:41:47 "more or less"? :-P 14:42:19 Deewiant, there may be other bugs of course 14:42:34 always there may be 14:42:34 for example my test program doesn't test everything that is possible to test 14:42:46 but as long as there aren't, we're good. ;-) 14:43:02 Deewiant, I suspect there may be an error when doing "draw a line, pen up, *one* B or F instruction, pen down, print" 14:43:06 you noobs, my programs never have bugs 14:43:06 of course not, SOCK for instance would run for an hour if you tried to test every combination 14:43:09 it seems to miss the dot then 14:43:30 do you have an example ready 14:44:22 Deewiant, not ready no 14:44:31 it was something I noted and need to write a proper test for 14:45:16 anyway I think I fixed that bug myself 14:45:18 not sure 14:53:48 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:58:39 Sweet. INTERCAL on /. 15:00:23 It brought us some newbies! 15:01:51 Huh. 15:02:10 Someone new I can shove Dimensifuck on, perhaps? :p 15:02:34 AnMaster: haha, fixed that bug and now the quine looks even worse 15:02:49 Deewiant, what was the issue with that bug 15:02:54 I have been too busy now 15:03:06 Deewiant, so tell me about it to save me some work :D 15:03:07 to be honest I'm not sure 15:03:10 what I did was 15:03:11 if (penDown || (pic.path && pic.path.penDown)) { 15:03:19 I thought that the latter part of the || was redundant 15:03:21 so I removed it 15:03:23 and it fixed that 15:03:25 but broke the quine 15:03:33 so evidently it wasn't redundant 15:03:36 Deewiant, got a test program? 15:03:44 "TRUT"4(n0H1Pf1+:*::**1-Naa*F0PaF1PI@ 15:04:09 -!- Corun has joined. 15:04:10 now I need to figure out why it isn't redundant 15:04:30 Deewiant, interesting tell me when you find out, our code is quite similar 15:14:32 -!- olsner has quit. 15:14:45 muah, everything works now, quine included 15:17:39 although the quine is a bit buggy, as I suspected 15:17:47 because !Befunge doesn't implement the dots 15:18:03 so the correct result of the quine looks quite dotty 15:18:49 AnMaster: but yeah, the logic regarding addPath() in move() is wrong 15:19:06 the correct way to do it is to remove the latter part of the || mentioned above 15:19:20 and then add the following at the beginning of move() 15:19:22 "TRUT"4( 11x 15:19:22 a7+3*5*N 0C 11x> ; Clear with blue. Set pen to black ; 15:19:22 0H 1P 11x> ; Set direction, pen down. ; 15:19:22 52*1-F 0P 2F 1P 53*1-F 11x> ; Draw first line with a gap in it. ; 15:19:25 well 15:19:26 not that 15:19:35 if (penDown && movedWithoutDraw) 15:19:35 pic.addPath(p, false, 0); 15:19:37 that 15:19:43 hm? 15:20:06 that's the needed fix to make everything work 15:22:04 Deewiant, where in the code? 15:22:16 what I said 15:22:22 which part did you not get :-P 15:22:34 Deewiant, is this below the line: 15:22:36 "// a -> ... -> z is equivalent to a -> z if not drawing" 15:22:37 ? 15:22:42 yes 15:23:09 Deewiant, penDown == pic.penDown or turt.penDown? 15:23:29 2008-07-05 17:03:10 ( Deewiant) IIif (penDown || (pic.path && pic.path.penDown)) { 15:23:31 also 15:23:33 2008-07-05 17:19:05 ( Deewiant) the correct way to do it is to remove the latter part of the || mentioned above 15:23:33 0 can't be right 15:23:38 you drop color 15:23:51 it's a pen-up move 15:23:53 so color is irrelevant 15:26:03 Deewiant, hm 15:27:18 Deewiant, oh mycology got an error 15:27:23 it sets background color to 0x1 15:27:38 kmain[flimble, booble, babble] 15:27:41 ? 15:27:57 Deewiant, so yes it shows two circles in mycology's test of TURT 15:28:01 however.. they are not visible 15:28:07 against the black background 15:28:09 oh, right 15:28:13 true 15:28:16 in fact, I was going to ask you 15:28:25 do you feel like writing a proper mycology test for TURT 15:28:44 don't worry about making it tight enough to fit where it needs to, I can do that 15:29:20 hm 15:29:42 since I know you're averse to writing compact Befunge ;-) 15:29:46 Deewiant, yes maybe, however probably at end of next week, I'm going to Norway in a few days and no computer or internet 15:29:59 no worries, I'm in no hurry 15:30:09 AnMaster, you should totally meet Oerjan while you're there. 15:30:14 :p 15:30:16 pikhq, Oslo? 15:30:38 Don't remember where he is in Norway. 15:30:52 Deewiant, if (penDown && movedWithoutDraw) <-- that breaks 15:31:03 why 15:31:06 Deewiant, try my test case I made before 15:31:09 I did 15:31:11 and it works fine 15:31:42 it doesn't for me hrrm 15:31:58 it goes wrong when first changing color 15:32:13 Deewiant, or do you mean in addition to current test case 15:32:29 ? 15:33:23 for the mycology thing? I'd rather it be replaced completely 15:33:41 for all the rest? CCBI now works on all inputs I've tried, including your test case, the quine, and my little one-liner 15:34:27 Deewiant, I mean your D code 15:34:32 err 15:34:38 can you just post your move function in your D code? 15:34:50 because I think I misinterpreted it 15:34:53 you only need to do two changes, what's so hard >_< 15:34:59 Deewiant, that it doesn't work 15:35:05 :-P 15:35:14 at the very beginning of move() 15:35:15 I think Oerjan is in Trondheim, actually. 15:35:19 (He'll have to confirm that) 15:35:24 add 15:35:25 if (penDown && movedWithoutDraw) 15:35:25 pic.addPath(p, false, 0); 15:35:29 before everything else, that is 15:35:37 then, leave everything else as is 15:35:42 but change the last if 15:35:42 Deewiant, oh not to replace the similar lines just below "// a -> ... -> z is equivalent to a -> z if not drawing"? 15:35:46 so that it's only if (penDown) 15:35:50 not if (penDown || foo) 15:36:22 AnMaster: parse failed; invalid sentence 15:37:50 ah that works 15:38:17 of course it does, I did it ;-) 15:39:34 hah 15:39:49 with the difference that this time I actually thought it through instead of just writing code ;-P 15:40:19 Deewiant, anyway it is hard to properly test TURT 15:40:29 of course one can't test all possibilities 15:40:37 Deewiant, you couldn't test all the bugs of the original code in one run 15:40:39 but you can do a lot better than what mycology currently does :-) 15:40:45 sure you could, why not 15:41:22 (and if not, it doesn't necessarily matter) 15:41:23 no as one of them in your original code needed to happen at the end (the missing dot) while another in my code only happened if there was no dot at the end 15:42:11 yeah, one can't test every single case 15:42:15 so it doesn't matter 15:42:26 just try to be reasonably exhaustive 15:42:34 ok 15:43:14 draw something, then clear it, then draw some more (intersecting paths, stuff like making sure that a->b->c means that the color at b is the color of b->c), put a couple of dots 15:43:24 and query the heading/position reasonably often to see if it's correct 15:43:35 and whatever else there was 15:43:35 Deewiant, anyway you already do some tests of what the current functions return, I wouldn't replace that bit, I would just after that start with N to clear and draw some test picture 15:43:42 to test that they draw correctly 15:43:50 well, not really 15:43:54 no? 15:44:06 I did get a BAD for return value from querypen 15:44:14 IIRC the current thing tests only how many values are popped 15:44:22 hmm 15:44:29 Deewiant, well it tests that querypen returns what is expected 15:44:32 it could even be that it depends on some defaults 15:44:33 up/down I mean 15:44:35 which aren't specced 15:44:39 hah 15:44:39 i.e. does the pen start up/down 15:44:45 what's the pen colour by default 15:44:46 mine starts up 15:44:47 stuff like that 15:44:59 and it probably used to start down? ;-) 15:45:10 but yeah, stuff like that shouldn't be tested 15:45:15 no I put a ! too much in a place 15:45:15 except as UNDEFs 15:45:23 so I think it was just pure wrong 15:45:35 I returned opposite state compared to actual pen state 15:45:48 heh 15:46:05 but anyhoo, that's something that probably shouldn't be BAD with the current tests 15:46:07 Deewiant, anyway if it is supposed to be able to drive a real turtle bot (as the specs suggests) I don't see how it can handle pen color, or even clear instruction 15:46:14 also what is the display instruction supposed to do? 15:46:18 it can ignore them 15:46:26 just like CCBI ignores the display instruction ;-) 15:46:37 well what is display *supposed* to do= 15:46:40 it's supposed to display the picture 15:46:46 pretty obvious IMHO :-P 15:46:54 but I'm not going to link an SVG viewer into CCBI 15:47:05 or roll my own, even :-P 15:47:18 haha 15:48:59 of course that's not necessary 15:49:04 since it's only lines and dots 15:49:14 it would probably be fairly simple to draw it in OpenGL, say 15:49:22 but I can't be bothered, and hence CCBI just ignores it 15:49:29 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:49:39 -!- jix has joined. 15:50:17 yeah that is allowed iirc 15:50:29 yes, it says "if possible" or something like that 15:50:37 indeed 15:50:38 however 15:50:48 it doesn't say "if possible" for pen colour or clear iirc 15:51:01 yet it says "used to drive a real turtle bot" 15:51:16 it could be used to drive a real turtle bot 15:51:23 just don't have the bot move until it gets I 15:51:26 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:51:30 that handles clear 15:51:47 Deewiant, can't you clear and then run I again? 15:51:49 and as for pen colour, beats me, I haven't even seen a turtle bot that can draw something :-) 15:52:01 hmm, what do you mean? 15:52:03 I guess it want interpreter to pause with a message like: "Please change the pen to a green one with 1% red tint in" or "Please replace paper with a slightly yellowish one" 15:52:14 that works :-D 15:53:43 of course after that it would say "press any key to continue" 15:53:57 "no not the any key, I mean you can choose a key on your own" 15:55:30 Deewiant, anyway if you remove the dots from the quine output then the image gets a lot smaller (from 254K to 134K) 15:55:36 and it looks quite ok 15:55:46 though I would never use that font myself anywhere 15:56:08 yes, the dots take much space 15:56:23 svg is really quite a space wasting format 15:56:37 gzipping it probably saves much 15:56:42 and really, it depends on the situation 15:56:56 15:57:07 27K tmp.gz 15:57:08 yep 15:57:15 but you need to ungzip it 15:57:15 put that in a bitmap and watch it grow :-) 15:57:28 oh noes, teh CPU-waste!! 15:57:34 Deewiant, not an issue 15:57:35 however 15:57:44 can browsers view gzipped ones 15:57:46 just like that? 15:58:03 Deewiant, ? 15:58:05 HTTP supports compression 15:58:09 ah true 15:58:09 and that uses gzip 16:06:05 Deewiant, do you dare open this http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/tmp/tquine_result.svg ? 16:06:12 it is edited to remove the dots 16:06:18 wtf 16:06:27 Deewiant, firefox fails at displaying it 16:06:29 I checked it myself without the dots locally 16:06:36 and firefox displayed it fine here :-) 16:06:42 didn't check that one of yours though 16:06:46 Deewiant, does it display my link though 16:06:51 inkscape does 16:07:35 nope, doesn't 16:07:43 and so does konqueror if you are prepared to wait 16:07:52 Deewiant, how does my image differ from yours? scale? 16:08:00 I don't see a thing 16:08:01 it's all white 16:08:18 Deewiant, same, and firefox only displays dots from my test code 16:08:23 not the lines 16:08:31 while inkscape displays lines too 16:08:35 and so does konq 16:08:39 you're doing it wrong :-P 16:08:43 or something 16:08:44 Deewiant, no I think firefox is 16:08:58 let me save resave it in inkscape 16:09:00 it's possible that the "miter-join" or whatever is messing it up 16:09:10 Deewiant, that just tells corner style 16:09:13 or then the "width" and "height" specifiers, what's up with those 16:09:22 AnMaster: yes, but if it doesn't support it then boom, no? 16:09:45 Deewiant, it handles it as inkscape does that one by default 16:10:00 Deewiant, anyway the width/height were added by first resave in inkscape to remove the dots 16:10:33 and it fails from a full resave in inkscape too 16:10:49 Deewiant, how does the source differ from yours in the image file? 16:10:54 scale? 16:11:01 because that is only difference I can think of 16:11:09 what source differ from what in what 16:11:28 the output of ccbi for tquine 16:11:33 compared with my output 16:11:41 Deewiant, I don't have your last version with fixed TURT after all 16:12:29 Deewiant, ? 16:12:34 stroke-linejoin is present in yours, not in mine 16:12:37 I don't have a doctype 16:12:42 I don't have id, width, height 16:12:47 I don't have standalone="no" 16:13:00 beyond that, beats me 16:13:17 ah, one thing 16:13:19 I don't use style="", I use attributes directly 16:13:28 fill="none" instead of style="fill:none" 16:13:52 xmlns ? 16:14:05 same 16:14:20 so you have it? 16:14:24 k 16:15:25 Deewiant, anyway changing that didn't help either 16:15:31 Deewiant, does the viewbox or the numbers differ? 16:18:00 yes, they do 16:18:05 viewBox="-0.0002 -0.0002 0.0833 0.0244" 16:18:06 versus 16:18:13 ? 16:18:17 viewBox="-.0011 -.0011 .0851 .0262" 16:18:33 Deewiant, that is interesting. 16:18:56 and I can't explain it 16:19:11 Deewiant, however the image generated is correct in inkscape and konqueror 16:19:15 so I blame firefox 16:19:24 also it validates 16:19:35 Deewiant, does the numbers for the path also differ btw? 16:19:49 my guess why they differ, long double vs. double 16:19:50 I'm not going to go through the whole path >_< 16:19:53 I just use double 16:20:02 Deewiant, ok look at the first 10 numbers or so? 16:20:05 and then the last few 16:20:11 just to see if the differ in either place 16:20:18 the first line looks similar to me 16:20:25 Deewiant, last one? 16:20:39 yep 16:20:49 how similar? 16:21:20 same 16:21:23 as far as I can tell 16:22:27 Deewiant, using long double a few numbers change in the last decimal near the middle, nothing that could cause that much difference 16:22:44 one thing is, do you use padding or not 16:22:56 I do 16:23:00 always the same padding 16:23:02 because that's a difference of 10 right there 16:23:04 even if the image is large 16:23:11 hmm 16:23:17 while you only use it if it is small iirc 16:23:22 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:23:22 no, I always use it 16:23:40 anyway that padding translates to 0.0010 16:23:42 it only matters if the image is small 16:23:45 or is it 16:23:46 yep 16:23:46 anyway that padding translates to 0.00010 16:23:50 nope 16:23:53 right 16:23:58 10 is 0.0010 16:24:04 at least in my program :-P 16:24:08 same here 16:24:28 Deewiant, and the path formatting looks the same for my program? 16:24:36 I mean, M and L in the same places? 16:24:43 like said 16:24:48 the first and the last line looked similar to me 16:24:52 because "create new path segment" was one bug I fixed 16:25:20 Deewiant, right, however, not exactly the same numbers in them? 16:25:32 similar == I can't tell the difference 16:25:44 but looking at a line with 200 numbers doesn't mean they're the same 16:25:48 hence similar, not same 16:25:55 hmm, that was a bad sentence 16:25:58 Deewiant, well upload your pic then 16:26:05 so I can diff it 16:26:11 with the power of *nix tools! 16:26:11 ;P 16:26:27 diff won't help you much 16:26:32 no? 16:26:32 due to whitespace differences and such 16:26:33 :-P 16:26:37 Deewiant, we have that? 16:26:48 -!- tusho has joined. 16:27:15 hi ais523 16:27:15 yes 16:27:17 Deewiant, and yes kompare can be set to ignore whitespace differences 16:27:20 same for diff 16:27:40 whatever, I'll upload it in a minute 16:27:43 thanks 16:27:52 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 16:28:01 tusho, ais isn't here 16:28:08 AnMaster: yes, I noticed... 16:28:17 but it's a safe bet just to get it typed and hit enter 16:28:20 otherwise i'd have to check 16:28:22 and therefore never win 16:28:24 tusho, again it took about 30 seconds from when you connected :/ 16:28:29 Deewiant, hm how is the constant PI defined in D? 16:28:37 AnMaster: yes, that's my client 16:28:42 still, we have a good way of measuring it now 16:28:45 I guess depending on how exact it is... 16:28:48 our clients log, to the second, when we press enter 16:29:32 Deewiant, 3.14159265358979323846 for M_PI here (defined in /usr/include/gentoo-multilib/amd64/math.h) 16:30:06 psht, my M_PI contains every digit 16:30:21 Deewiant, also does casts of floats to ints in D round or truncate? 16:31:15 const real PI = 0x1.921fb54442d1846ap+1L; 16:31:17 truncate 16:31:20 01:32:39 verbally violent and capable of doing programming shit noone thought it would be possible 16:31:24 this is called 'elitist irc assholes' 16:31:27 I'm going to upload, post a link, and then go eat 16:31:29 and they can't program worth shit 16:31:31 Deewiant, eh that one is slightly crazy 16:31:34 it is in hex 16:31:39 yes, for maximum accuracy 16:31:42 for a float? 16:31:44 hrrm 16:32:09 tusho, hah agree 16:32:16 iki.fi/deewiant/CCBI_TURT.svg 16:32:17 and I'm gone -> 16:32:26 Deewiant: question 16:32:30 why do finnish people put -> 16:32:33 after their 'bye' messages 16:32:37 oklopol does it too 16:33:36 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:34:43 01:36:44 Slereah_: doesn't work on Linux !? :O 16:34:52 i could probably guess you came from slashdot if I hadn't read it earlier 16:34:52 :) 16:35:27 Deewiant, I notice you do floating point now? 16:38:09 tusho: because it's the superior way to say you're gone 16:38:26 oklopol: but why only fins 16:38:47 didn't know it was only finns 16:39:05 i guess we're the superior race then? 16:39:10 true 16:40:42 I was going to say something like that 16:41:28 but yeah, it's quick and to the point, if you put "->" somewhere it means the next thing you do after pressing enter is leave 16:42:01 AnMaster: where do you see that? 16:42:19 M2e-4,0 L2e-4,2e-4 M4e-4,0 L4e-4,2e-4 M.0014,1e-4 L.001,1e-4 L.0012,1e-4 L.0012,7e-4 M.0018,3e-4 L.0021,6e-4 16:42:22 in your output 16:42:28 and where does that imply floating point 16:42:30 doesn't look like fixed point at all 16:42:37 it is 16:42:37 Deewiant, oh so why is it formatted like that then? 16:42:42 %d wouldn't do it 16:42:49 because I format it manually so that it takes minimal space 16:43:29 be warned, though: firefox has an open bug that scientific notation doesn't work 16:44:09 Deewiant, ok... 16:44:28 Deewiant, well I think whatever makes cfunge output fail in firefox is also a firefox bug 16:44:36 same happens for the paths in my simple test case 16:44:38 certainly possible 16:44:47 what version do you have 16:44:54 Deewiant, it works in konqueror, safari, opera, inkscape 16:45:01 Deewiant, firefox 2.0.14 16:45:11 ah, that would explain 16:45:12 or something thing that, could be .15 I guess 16:45:15 2.0's SVG support is poor 16:45:18 I have 3.0 16:45:29 Deewiant, and still don't see it? 16:45:41 well, your simple test case worked fine 16:45:45 but the quine doesn't 16:45:46 Deewiant, well ccbi tquine crashes firefox 16:45:56 yes, that's because of the scientific notation 16:46:02 without it it works fine 16:46:11 that shouldn't crash however 16:46:12 but I chose to use it anyway 16:46:21 true, but it does 16:46:40 and just turning off the scientific notation makes it work fine :-) 16:47:07 Deewiant, anyway if you select to ever update the mycology results page remember that firefox should not be used to check cfunge, instead use inkscape or such 16:47:20 or any of the other browsers I mentioned 16:48:48 Deewiant, you said you had no doctype? in the file you uploaded there is a doctype 16:48:53 "" 16:48:56 is first line 16:49:14 you really don't need to inform me about these things, I do know you know :-) 16:49:16 I added it 16:49:21 aha 16:49:29 to make the validator warning shut up? 16:49:38 no 16:49:40 where's the validator 16:49:46 http://validator.w3.org/ 16:49:49 it can do svg too 16:49:59 I just checked the SVG spec and it seemed that doctype is used 16:50:54 hmm, wrong doctype actually 16:51:04 oh? 16:51:53 Deewiant, what is the correct doctype for tiny then? 16:52:10 http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/REC-SVGMobile-20030114/#sec-conformance 16:52:32 ah wait tiny doesn't support style sheets 16:52:40 oh well I will change to use full 16:52:43 there we go, valid tiny 16:52:43 nothing wrong in that 16:53:17 and sure it does 16:53:20 doesn't it? 16:53:27 I tried: 16:53:29 "Error Line 12, Column 12: there is no attribute "style". 16:53:29 validator gives you that? 16:53:58 weird 16:53:59 http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/REC-SVGMobile-20030114/#sec-styind 16:54:09 http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/REC-SVGMobile-20030114/#sec-styling 16:54:34 Deewiant, it says it isn't valid for 16:54:43 ah 17:00:51 hmm 17:01:42 one could save potentially a lot of space by using a class="p" instead of repeating stroke-width &c. in every 17:01:49 but it's not Tiny 17:01:56 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 17:02:46 Deewiant, well I would need to define the class in a 17:08:02 that should work right? 17:08:11 no 17:08:15 Deewiant, no? 17:08:17 it needs to be in 17:08:20 and it needs to be CDATA 17:08:21 oh 17:08:27 AnMaster: genx 17:08:28 :p 17:08:28 and I'm not sure about the media 17:08:48 tusho, genx doesn't know how a svg is built 17:08:55 tusho, so that won't help at all for this 17:09:13 AnMaster: genx knows how xml is built 17:09:14 e.g. cdata 17:09:18 I'm using Tango's XML writer 17:09:19 One of the old style negation symbol looks in between ~ and the infinity symbol 17:09:21 surprisingly handy 17:09:24 Heh. 17:09:53 Deewiant: yeah, genx is basically that for c 17:09:57 Deewiant, just 19:25:57 yes I now correctly set width and height 19:26:03 like said, I use tango's XML generator 19:26:09 I'm not sure why I have to multiply it by 10000 19:26:19 but only when I do that do I get the correct size in inkscape 19:27:00 okay, interesting 19:27:10 using scientific notation -> ram usage boom 19:27:25 is this a bug in every single SVG viewer out there? :-P 19:27:35 Deewiant, I guess it is harder to parse? 19:27:54 not so hard that it takes 100* more memory 19:27:57 and CPU 19:28:14 Deewiant, no clue 19:28:29 Deewiant, anyway you have solved your problem then 19:28:35 now report this as a bug to inkscape ppl 19:28:39 and other too 19:28:52 Deewiant, certainly konqueror doesn't like scientific notation either 19:29:04 weird 19:29:15 * AnMaster watch the spinning K as it tries to preview the image 19:29:45 while the cfunge one takes maybe 10 seconds to create a preview from (yes konq 3.5.9 sucks at svg, it has problems with open/closed paths too) 19:30:46 size goes up by 8 Kio 19:30:47 ah well 19:31:11 Deewiant, as for the 255 line length limit , are you aware of that inkscape never puts a linebreak in a path? 19:31:13 so it ignores that 19:31:22 I do not care 19:31:43 the spec says that some viewers have or may have restrictions so it's best to keep to 255 byte lines 19:31:47 so I keep to 255 byte lines 19:31:52 Deewiant, oh be sure to use LF not CRLF even on windows, that will save a few bytes 19:31:54 :P 19:31:56 (rather, 10-path-node lines, but it's the same thing) 19:32:07 nah, I stick to my platform :-) 19:32:23 Deewiant, the file I wgeted from you was LF not CRLF 19:32:45 yes, I know, I figured that if you checked the filesize you'd say I was wrong 19:32:52 hahaha 19:32:52 and that would have been because the filesize I quoted was LF 19:33:08 but instead you come complaining to me that it's LF not CRLF, so that didn't work out too well 19:33:16 Deewiant, well if that is what you quote, then that is what you shall use too 19:33:33 of course I quoted the optimal filesize :-P 19:33:42 Deewiant, I'm not complaining it is LF, I like it 19:34:59 Deewiant, btw you use 10 bit floats right? 19:35:04 well cfunge now use 16-bit ones 19:35:05 XD 19:35:13 floats? 19:35:14 I changed to long double, on amd64 that use sse 19:35:15 80 bit? 19:35:18 err 19:35:21 I meant byte 19:35:21 byte 19:35:22 right 19:35:22 not bits 19:35:23 sorry 19:35:34 anyhoo, like said, real is the max the platform supports 19:35:39 so it's just a compiler issue henceforth 19:35:43 yep 19:35:54 long double is in C99 so I can use it 19:36:05 it is not part of C89 though iirc 19:43:11 -!- jamesstanley has quit ("Leaving"). 19:43:26 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:44:06 -!- Corun has joined. 19:44:35 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:44:41 :[ ] 19:46:31 * ihope_ gives Slereah_ a tall sandwich 19:46:37 :[||||||||||] 19:47:18 ihope_, wrong size 19:47:21 he still got: 19:47:25 :[|||||||||| ] 19:47:26 now 19:47:37 But can you give me advices on how to recover data from a hard dive, which does notwork? 19:47:45 Slereah_, use backups 19:47:49 that is what I would do 19:47:51 Oh. 19:48:03 Well, now he has chewing room. 19:48:09 Slereah_, I assume you got daily, or at least weekly backup? 19:48:23 Slereah_, but first, is it a *hardware* error 19:48:29 as in, read errors 19:48:30 Slereah_, I assume you got daily, or at least weekly backup? 19:48:33 HOLIER THAN THOU 19:48:35 or just corrupted file system 19:48:37 I don't have a fucking clue. 19:48:42 tusho, I do backups to tape 19:48:49 AnMaster: Expert tape backuper 19:48:50 It says that I can't access the HD. 19:48:51 Slereah_, boot from a good linux live cd 19:48:59 Already tried. 19:49:00 FUN FACT: Most people don't do backups. 19:49:06 Slereah_, checked with smart tools? 19:49:09 It does not detect the HD either 19:49:14 tusho, yes, and that is bad 19:49:24 Slereah_, doesn't detect, what do you mean? 19:49:28 AnMaster: It's hard to get the space. 19:49:28 Moneys. 19:49:29 I barely know how to use Linux, I don't know what the fuck that means 19:49:47 tusho, tapes got high density and aren't very expensive 19:50:08 I need a total of 10 tapes that I change about once a year to new unused ones 19:50:15 That's what the error message tells me when I try to open it. 19:50:16 two tapes for full backup 19:50:16 AnMaster: Backing up to a tape is totally trivial rite guyz 19:50:20 then the rest for incremental 19:50:20 "Can't be accessed". 19:50:23 But, you know 19:50:24 In French 19:50:34 Also some sort of message involving parameters. 19:50:36 Slereah_, so ls /dev/hdb or whatever it is 19:50:53 export LC_ALL=C 19:51:00 smartctl -H /dev/hdx 19:51:07 where hdx is the harddrive with issues 19:51:11 tell me what that outputs 19:51:18 boot from a livecd that has smartmontools 19:51:23 Slereah_, want a link to a good one? 19:51:25 if yes a sec 19:51:26 Well, if your solution is Linux, we'll discuss that again on an occasion where I'm on the liveCD 19:51:46 Slereah_, http://www.sysresccd.org/Main_Page 19:51:52 Slereah_, and I can't give any windows help 19:52:07 But then again, who can? 19:52:09 -!- olsner has quit. 19:52:17 Slereah_, why not boot to a livecd like that 19:52:22 it got recovery tools 19:52:38 I'll try tomorrow. 19:52:47 Slereah_, why not now, if you wanted help 19:53:03 you don't care for the harddrive? 19:53:12 Slereah_, until then please unplug the disk in that case 19:53:29 to prevent further damage from the disk spinning if it is a hardware failure 19:53:37 I have seen that happen 19:54:02 Slereah_, because if the disk is dying, well you don't have until "tomorrow" sometimes 19:54:08 but that is your choice 19:54:12 It's been down for months, AnMaster. 19:54:19 I can wait another day. 19:54:40 Slereah_, well then it is likely too late already 19:55:27 There are many Star Trek episodes at stake here, AnMaster. 19:55:39 This is serious matters. 19:55:58 Slereah_, well I'm serious but you are not 19:57:12 AnMaster: BTW, re: SVG and doctypes and doctype-based validation: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/message/48562 19:57:35 "Your browser is not accepting our cookies. To view this page, please set your browser preferences to accept cookies. (Code 0) " 19:57:37 blergh 19:58:29 Well, I tried to save the HD many times. 19:58:39 It's actually why I installed Linux in the first place. 19:58:42 Slereah_, and I asked you two commands which you refused to run 19:58:48 But many problem arose. 19:58:55 Well, I can't run them here. 19:59:12 Slereah_, so reboot to a livecd if you want my help, I will not be here tomorrow mostly 19:59:26 and next week I will be in Norway without computer or internet 20:01:04 Deewiant, well give me xml schema then? 20:02:03 Deewiant, also that was in 2005, and the w3c validator now have specific support for svg 20:02:05 so... 20:02:20 not saying it is perfect, but it is better than back then 20:07:19 Deewiant, anyway I checked by hand that my output is as well formed as yours 20:07:28 apart from not using e notation 20:09:14 Deewiant: what was interesting was rather that SVG developers consider that the doctype is useless 20:09:34 of course, what we generate is so simple that it hardly matters either way 20:09:47 I just thought it was interesting in general, not trying to bash you or anything 20:12:18 but yeah, yay, TURT is finally done for ever now 20:12:24 AnMaster: what fingerprint's next for you 20:15:11 Deewiant, not sure 20:15:17 Deewiant, maybe SOCK, don't know 20:15:27 not TRDS? :-P 20:15:31 Deewiant, currently I'm in bug fixes only before next release 20:15:39 so no new fingerprint now 20:15:48 alright, whatever 20:15:56 unless I fork to a branch and trunk (have only done feature branches so far) 20:16:27 one excuse that I haven't updated the mycology results page is that you still haven't released a version which is done so far as (mycology-tested) fingerprints are concerned ;-) 20:16:40 Deewiant, hm? 20:16:54 Deewiant, well some I won't implement, and some I may implement later 20:17:12 but yes I plan a mostly stable release in the near future 20:17:14 yeah, so one excuse for me is your "may implement later" part 20:17:25 Deewiant, what? you could just update it next year 20:17:37 yeah, I said it's an excuse, not a good reason :-P 20:17:40 Deewiant, I got other open source projects to 20:17:42 too* 20:17:50 like implement new socket engine for crossfire 20:17:56 which is what I will do after this release 20:18:01 crossfire? 20:18:16 Deewiant, the first mmorpg, first line of code written back in 1992 20:18:25 I'm a developer on it since a few months 20:19:01 I beg to differ on "the first" 20:19:08 me too 20:19:14 Deewiant, really? what one was before? 20:19:39 if you count MUDs, the first were in the late 70s I think 20:19:41 if you don't, LORD 20:19:43 MMORPG, certainly not the first RPG or the first MMO game, but could you give an example of a older MMORPG 20:19:50 Deewiant, a MUD isn't a MMORPG 20:19:57 it is IMO 20:20:04 but like said, even if you don't think so, LORD 20:20:25 LORD was for BBS iirc 20:20:32 quite 20:20:41 does that count as online? 20:21:05 if you need a modem to play it counts as online. 20:21:06 I will now reboot to der Linux. 20:21:10 brb 20:21:27 Deewiant, well crossfire is the first graphical MMORPG then 20:21:54 AnMaster: that's not a huge achivement 20:22:44 Neverwinter Nights was earlier 20:22:51 the AOL one 20:23:07 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_(AOL_game) 20:23:29 crossfire may be the first /graphical and open-source/ one though 20:23:46 Deewiant, and it was certainly an early one 20:23:48 Deewiant: ah yes neverwinter nights 20:23:59 Deewiant: lol, though 20:24:03 the first graphical, open-source MMORPG! 20:24:06 what an amazing accomplishment! 20:24:13 that's totally not highly specific! 20:24:41 like cfunge, the first C99 Befunge-98 interpreter ;-) 20:24:45 tusho, certainly nethack wasn't the first rouge, yet wouldn't you call it a game with a long and deep history 20:24:48 * AnMaster slaps Deewiant 20:24:59 Deewiant: AnMaster is full of new ideas 20:25:00 I guess I deserved that ^_^ 20:25:02 Deewiant, according you your mycology page the first conforming befunge98 one in C 20:25:13 yes, but not C99 20:25:25 Deewiant, or the second conforming one at all 20:25:30 We all know compilers have impeccable C99 support 20:25:47 tusho, it should be possible to convert it to c89, tell me when you are done 20:25:49 ~ 20:25:57 do you use VLAs 20:26:17 Deewiant, that can be replaced with malloced buffers 20:26:38 same for variable sized arrays at end of structs (which I do use) 20:26:41 so you do? hmm, that's an exploit waiting to happen 20:26:42 I don't use the other VLA 20:26:46 Deewiant, ^ 20:27:04 the stack only has so much size, namely 20:27:15 Deewiant, indeed, which is why I no longer use it 20:27:30 Deewiant, while variable sized struct is perfectly ok on the heap 20:27:33 and I do use that 20:28:30 Deewiant, as for VLAs on the stack, there are certain safe contexts for it, when you know the range 20:28:42 like "2-200 bytes" 20:28:45 or such 20:28:48 of course 20:29:02 Deewiant, but no I don't use it at all I think 20:29:33 Deewiant, I do use a few *static* buffers on the heap though 20:29:43 where I read a file in chunks of 1024 bytes for example 20:30:05 s/heap/stack/ probably? 20:30:12 but ah yes 20:30:35 AnMaster: have you fuzz-tested cfunge? 20:30:40 tusho, I have indeed 20:30:46 LOL 20:30:54 tusho, the script is in the cfunge bzr repo 20:30:59 or in the release tarballs 20:31:02 tusho, why? 20:31:14 it's a befunge interpreter 20:31:17 tusho, I found quite a few bugs that way 20:31:22 it was very useful 20:31:40 I like how AnMaster's befunge interpreter uses more hyper-optimizing POSIX functions than extremely popular (& in need of speed) languages like Python or Ruby. 20:31:46 It's deliciously ridiculous. 20:31:57 I forget, did you only find bugs that caused segfaults or others as well 20:32:03 tusho, yes you just didn't see the "~" 20:32:11 I think it is in the spirit of the language 20:32:30 tusho: the difference is, Guido and Matz know where the optimizations apply and where they don't, and where they're just pointless. 20:32:41 Deewiant++++++++ 20:32:45 (It's a hyper-optimized ++) 20:33:00 Deewiant @repeat ++ 20:33:02 thx lambdabot 20:33:08 Deewiant, well segfaults and valgrind errors, and once iirc a bug happened to happen as well in the same function 20:33:11 :-) 20:33:19 but yes in general only segfaults and valgrind errors 20:33:23 which isn't too bad at all 20:33:41 Deewiant: 20:33:46 > var $ "Deewiant" ++ cycle "++" 20:33:46 Deewiant++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++... 20:33:48 Deewiant, but of course they help other stuff too, like when 5kt caused errors, or when 2k@ did 20:34:02 tusho: yes, I am on #haskell. :-) 20:34:14 yes but I wanted AnMaster to see 20:34:16 dunno why 20:34:21 tusho, infinite, right 20:34:50 tusho, anyway I have been thinking of porting it to quantum computers for additional speed. 20:34:55 tusho, what do you think of that? 20:35:00 ~~~~ 20:35:00 AnMaster: do it 20:35:01 use java 20:35:04 haha 20:35:04 it's enterprisey 20:35:07 hehe 20:36:26 anyway a quantum fingerprint could be interesting 20:36:40 but same category as TRDS 20:36:48 use MPI so that you can run multiple threads on multiple machines 20:37:02 not only feral, but wild 20:37:20 Deewiant, hah 20:37:31 ~ 20:37:47 Deewiant, I realized that.. 20:37:48 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:37:59 ~ 20:38:08 -!- Slereah- has joined. 20:38:15 Well, liveCD won't boot 20:38:18 I think it's too dirty 20:38:30 Slereah-, try the one I suggested 20:38:38 Slereah-, http://www.sysresccd.org/ 20:38:41 that one is good 20:38:45 AnMaster: Dirty as in LITERALLY DIRT. 20:38:46 and got the needed tools 20:38:52 tusho, yes I realize that 20:39:11 Slereah-, but if he is burning a new anyway 20:39:15 err 20:39:16 tusho, ^ 20:39:45 Deewiant: Dude, shapr. 20:39:49 Dude, he's addicted to dude. 20:39:49 I'll get a new CD. 20:39:51 Dude, he hates spam. 20:39:54 Dude, dude. 20:40:33 AnMaster : Once I boot that CD, what do I do? 20:40:41 Slereah-, same commands as before 20:40:42 Slereah-: Come here. 20:40:46 Because from the look of it, I won't have the interwebs with it 20:40:55 Is there interbutts on that CDN 20:40:56 ? 20:40:57 tusho, no idea if it got irc client 20:41:03 AnMaster: Telnet. 20:41:11 tusho, could Slereah- manage that? 20:41:14 No :P 20:41:15 Wait 20:41:24 Slereah-: Get a pen and paper. 20:41:34 http://www.sysresccd.org/Detailed-packages-list 20:41:36 Slereah-, it has irssi 20:41:39 ah 20:41:39 okay 20:41:42 run 'irssi' 20:41:45 '/server irc.freenode.net' 20:41:46 -!- oklopol has quit (No route to host). 20:41:46 (wait) 20:41:48 '/join #esoteric' 20:41:54 what tusho said 20:42:00 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:42:06 Slereah-, if you use wlan you could have issues 20:42:07 (In a kommunistline, of course.) 20:42:14 tusho, in a what? 20:42:19 What type of issues? 20:42:32 Slereah-, "better connect to ethernet" issues 20:42:33 Gender confusion? 20:42:43 as in wlan may not work out of box 20:42:45 try ethernert 20:42:47 ethernet* 20:42:52 that is way more likely to work 20:43:14 I don't understand a word of it. 20:43:36 Slereah-, do you use wireless network? 20:43:38 yes or no? 20:43:48 Yes. 20:43:57 Slereah-, try using cable network instead 20:44:02 it is more likely to work 20:44:26 Slereah-, wireless network may have issues with drivers that would require some linux knowledge to solve 20:44:32 What, you want me to find a giant cable and somehow plug it in the Livebox in the next room? 20:44:55 It's not because I like it that I'm on wireless. 20:45:19 Slereah-, well if internet doesn't work, anyway why not just boot directly to an ubuntu install or such 20:45:24 then from there connect to irc 20:45:47 Slereah-: Dude. Livebox. 20:45:49 I have one of those. 20:45:49 Slereah-, then I can tell you what packages to install and what to run and such 20:45:51 Shittiest router ever. 20:46:02 Indeed. 20:46:19 AnMaster, are you suggesting using a LiveCD or reinstalling Linux? 20:46:29 Slereah-, you don't have linux any longer? 20:46:40 I suggest installing ubuntu or kubuntu 20:46:40 As explained before, I still have it 20:46:48 Slereah-, well boot it then 20:46:52 But during the last windows reinstalling 20:47:00 It removed the dual booting I had installed 20:47:08 tusho, you help him to reinstall dual boot! 20:47:15 no 20:47:17 I can only do it by hand with grub 20:47:20 When I tried to put it back on, with the hard drive stuff, I had a giant ass error. 20:47:22 from command line 20:47:32 Segment something something 20:47:40 segmentation fault? 20:47:41 I can't work on my partitions anymore for some reason 20:47:44 Slereah-, ? 20:47:45 Something like that. 20:47:50 Slereah-, well that is bad 20:47:55 Indeed. 20:48:04 Plus, it's the main hard drive. 20:48:06 Slereah-, just reinstall ubuntu or something then 20:48:08 -_- 20:48:09 So it's probably not a good sign 20:48:36 (This is why I'm anxious to get that new computer) 20:48:43 Slereah-, it may work with wireless 20:48:47 worth a try 20:48:59 Well, Linux does work with wireless. 20:49:01 Slereah-, if it doesn,t get a long ethernet cable I guess 20:49:08 Even the liveCD, actually. 20:49:11 Slereah-, yes it does, but it is sometimes not trivial to get working 20:49:22 Actually, it is with Kubuntu. 20:49:27 Slereah-, it depend on what livecd and such too 20:50:06 Slereah-, systemrescuecd will need you to activate it yourself from command line I suspect 20:50:15 something I don't know how, as I don't use wireless myself 20:50:23 I use ethernet (cable) 20:50:24 Then no dice. 20:50:30 Slereah-, an issue yeah 20:50:40 Slereah-, get kubuntu or whatever working again 20:50:43 then ask for more helpo 20:50:55 Slereah-, trying to recover from inside windows will *NOT* work 20:51:02 I'll do the LiveCD. 20:51:17 I don't want to lose my datas on windows by reinstalling Linux. 20:51:22 *data 20:51:30 Slereah-, anyway if it is only star trek movies, why not just torrent them 20:51:44 Well, it's not just that. 20:51:47 ah 20:51:58 of course I didn't say that 20:52:10 torrenting copyrighted material is illegal 20:52:58 AnMaster: zomg 20:54:05 well I'm just a bit careful, "Note that I didn't suggest that" style 20:54:06 ... 20:55:01 AnMaster. 20:55:05 Knock knock. 20:55:06 Slereah-, yes? 20:55:11 Who's there? 20:55:28 AnMaster: you're liek the anti-fuck man i'm haf 20:55:40 tusho, uh? 20:55:41 It's the 4chan Partyvan. 20:55:53 Slereah-, the 4chan Partyvan who? 20:56:06 "yeah, I was on drugs when I wrote that" "I may or may not have been under the influence of halluciogenic effects when I wrote that message. Note that I don't support the use of drugs in any way or form" 20:56:09 -!- cherez has quit (Success). 20:56:11 or someting 20:56:13 *something 20:56:15 Don't you know the partyvan AnMaster? 20:56:31 Slereah-, no but I know you ruined the "knock knock" joke 20:56:51 (which IMO is a rather bad joke anyway) 20:56:58 Fine, let's try again. 20:57:01 Knock knock. 20:57:08 Who's there? 20:57:11 9/11 20:57:16 9/11 who? 20:57:24 YOU SAID YOU'D NEVER FORGET D: 20:57:31 HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA 20:57:31 -!- cherez has joined. 20:57:37 that isn't how it goes 20:57:42 but fun yes 20:57:43 It so is. 20:57:44 kind of 20:57:59 AnMaster: the only funny knock knock jokes are the irregular ones 20:58:05 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knock-knock_joke 20:58:13 tusho, well I think this one was macabre 20:58:21 it was MACABRE 20:58:23 Because people DIED. 20:58:30 They DIED and therefore you can NEVER joke about it. 20:58:39 It's INSULTING to the people who don't have MINDS any more. 20:58:55 tusho, not saying that, but how would you feel about joking about if your father died or so? 20:58:58 not fun I bet 20:59:07 well you may not be 12, but you sometimes do act like it 20:59:07 AnMaster: It was in 2-thousand-and-fucking-1. 20:59:16 how would that make the joke less funny? 20:59:21 Actually, my dad often jokes about his cancer :o 20:59:24 If it was September 12st, you could get away with 'TOO SOON' 20:59:27 It's not. 20:59:37 Slereah-, anyway what did you want? 20:59:47 wat? 20:59:50 Anyone have a joke about hitler and jews? AnMaster will die of shock. 21:00:08 How did Hitler die? 21:00:08 knock knock 21:00:20 Slereah-: I don't know how did he die. 21:00:22 oklopol: Who's there. 21:00:25 tusho, I will find it bad taste 21:00:30 HE SAW HIS GAS BILL 21:00:34 tusho: hitler killed a lot of jews 21:00:48 Slereah-: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA 21:00:51 oklopol: HAHAAHAHAHAHAHA 21:00:56 Slereah-: old 21:01:04 Yeah 21:01:05 I like oklopol's 21:01:11 <3 21:01:11 But I had no time to find an awesome one. 21:01:20 Knock knock. 21:01:31 who's there? 21:02:12 oklopol: You fucking ruined my life. God, why did you cheat on me? After all I've done for you ... what did I do wrong? Why have you done this to me? My life is worthless. I spend every day crying until I can't cry any more. I am going to fucking kill myself. Then this will all be over. 21:02:17 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 21:02:35 tusho: You fucking ruined my life. God, why did you cheat on me? After all I've done for you ... what did I do wrong? Why have you done this to me? My life is worthless. I spend every day crying until I can't cry any more. I am going to fucking kill myself. Then this will all be over. who? 21:02:57 Slereah-, anyway what did you want really? 21:03:07 You fucking ruined my life. God, why did you cheat on me? After all I've done for you ... what did I do wrong? Why have you done this to me? My life is worthless. I spend every day crying until I can't cry any more. I am going to fucking kill myself. Then this will all be over my shepard! 21:03:08 What do you mean by this, AnMaster 21:03:40 tusho: good one :D 21:03:45 Slereah-, I assume you did the highlight above for some other reason that just a knock knock joke... 21:03:48 oklopol: yeah I know 21:04:27 Well, the partyvan means, on internet grounds, the FBI. 21:04:39 It was a joke to refer to your mention of illegal download 21:04:51 Slereah-, I see, well I don't go on 4chan 21:05:04 No need 21:05:09 It is everywhar D: 21:05:23 Slereah-, yes, it's sad freenode doesn't offer ssl 21:05:44 ssl? 21:06:12 Slereah-, offers encrypted connection 21:06:18 did you even try to google? 21:06:39 Slereah-, first hit is en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Sockets_Layer here 21:07:03 Then again, you answered in 30 seconds. 21:07:09 So it probably was quicker to ask. 21:07:21 well that is the wrong attitude 21:07:51 It's the wrong attitude, mister Slereah-! 21:07:53 You'd better behave. 21:07:58 AnMaster: and yet, you always ask me things about D that you could easily look up from the spec. :-) 21:08:02 Will I get a spanking? D: 21:08:04 You fucking ruined my life. God, why did you cheat on me? After all I'--wait, what? 21:08:07 (or SVG, today.) 21:08:17 Deewiant, well nobody is perfect 21:08:22 :-P 21:08:46 ihope_: Hi! 21:08:52 Ello. 21:09:40 (I also by the way don't understand why you mention ssl here) 21:12:05 -!- Corun has joined. 21:26:05 -!- olsner has joined. 21:28:45 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 21:29:13 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:30:54 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 21:33:59 -!- olsner has quit. 21:35:35 tusho: should I refrain from mentioning rootnomic entirely, or just from pestering you about it? 21:36:03 ihope_: Pestering. 21:36:11 And mentioning it just to make me work on it. 21:36:18 * ihope_ nods 21:47:26 Ah fuck 21:47:35 Not enough disk space to burn the CD 21:48:26 I need a new computer. 21:52:49 Slereah-, free up some diskspace 21:52:52 delete what you don't need 21:54:07 My partition is 2 GB large. 21:54:20 Well, 2.63 21:54:47 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:54:58 I can round up enough free space, but that usually mean uninstalling adobe reader and such 21:55:03 It's quite annoying. 21:59:32 I be going to sleep. 22:00:27 bye Slereah- 22:01:51 I leave you with this : http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comics/guest5/scottmale42.png 22:02:06 hah 22:47:44 -!- GregorR has joined. 22:59:03 -!- Judofyr has quit. 23:17:10 -!- Corun has joined. 23:29:01 -!- RedDak has joined. 23:56:01 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2008-07-06: 00:09:34 a 00:09:46 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:26:45 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:39:45 -!- immibis has joined. 00:40:06 i don't suppose anyone happens to have a FukYorBrane binary compiled for windows? 00:40:53 nope 00:40:58 compile it yourself 00:45:26 well then does anyone have the FukYorBrane source code that isn't bzipped? 00:49:10 gzipped is fine though, i'm on a computer without bzip2 01:10:26 -!- tusho has quit. 01:26:06 hi immy! 01:38:34 hi 01:42:46 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit. 01:48:07 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 02:03:49 how would i check if a number in a cell is less than zero in brainfuck, btw? 02:13:31 * pikhq shoves Cygwin at immibis 02:31:05 ...? 02:31:15 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. and dlte ur files. and email ths to). 03:54:10 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 05:32:14 -!- selb has joined. 05:36:45 -!- calamari has joined. 05:36:54 hi 06:05:45 Esoteric languages! 06:06:14 :D 07:54:22 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:43:13 Hai 08:53:47 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 08:58:59 o 08:59:03 hei vaan 09:08:41 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 09:09:01 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:18:43 -!- Slereah- has joined. 09:18:44 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:33:05 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 10:51:37 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 10:51:38 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:52:40 -!- Slereah- has joined. 10:52:51 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:55:08 -!- RedDak has joined. 11:03:25 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:03:25 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:25:48 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:30:26 -!- ubuntu__ has joined. 11:30:38 -!- ubuntu__ has changed nick to Slereah. 11:30:56 People dudes. 11:31:13 -!- Judofyr has joined. 11:42:06 -!- olsner has joined. 11:54:10 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:56:13 -!- kar8nga has joined. 12:03:42 -!- Slereah- has joined. 12:03:48 AnMaster, you here? 12:04:36 Slereah-, yes why? 12:04:54 I made the linux CD work. 12:05:02 Although Gparted does not work at all. 12:05:04 Slereah-, nice you are on it now? 12:05:17 Nah, but let me reboot on it. 12:05:17 Slereah- try these commands then: 12:05:21 ah... 12:05:24 Slereah-, internet on it? 12:05:30 Yes. 12:05:34 good get on it then 12:05:43 I just have to enter the WEP key in it 12:05:56 k 12:11:28 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:11:58 -!- ubuntu__ has joined. 12:12:11 -!- ubuntu__ has changed nick to Slereah-. 12:12:19 Aaanmaster 12:13:05 Slereah-, yes? 12:13:20 Slereah-, first is it set to English? 12:13:29 Yes it is 12:13:35 open a terminal, and run: 12:13:42 smartctl 12:13:49 does it return an error or does the command exist? 12:13:52 Which is awkward with the qwerty and all 12:14:15 Slereah-, ah you can change that 12:14:26 The program 'smartctl' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing: 12:14:26 sudo apt-get install smartmontools 12:14:26 bash: smartctl: command not found 12:14:40 ok 12:14:41 run: 12:14:43 sudo apt-get install smartmontools 12:14:44 then I guess 12:15:20 How do I get on azerty 12:15:40 Slereah-, are you in X? as in graphical windows 12:15:45 or in just a console? 12:16:02 I have a graphical interface yes 12:16:22 Slereah-, ah a bit harder then a sec 12:16:47 Wel I know that I can change it in the install screen. 12:17:05 I could maybe launch it and then cancel after the AZERTY 12:17:18 Slereah-, without a graphical interface it would be loadkeys /usr/share/keymaps/i386/azerty/fr-latin1.map.gz 12:17:19 iirc 12:17:23 something like that anyway 12:17:28 maybe not with .gz at the end 12:17:41 Slereah-, but yes that could work I guess 12:17:42 :) 12:18:13 Yes, it work 12:18:18 Slereah-, great 12:18:29 ubuntu@ubuntu:~$ smartctl 12:18:29 smartctl version 5.36 [i686-pc-linux-gnu] Copyright (C) 2002-6 Bruce Allen 12:18:29 Home page is http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net/ 12:18:29 ERROR: smartctl requires a device name as the final command-line argument. 12:18:29 Use smartctl -h to get a usage summary 12:18:36 Slereah-, good it is installed now 12:18:41 Slereah-, what is the harddrive with the issues? 12:18:49 Slereah-, something like /dev/hdb likely 12:18:56 /dev/hda is probaly your first 12:19:08 I have five hard drives plugged in. 12:19:20 Only three show up on Linux. 12:19:25 Slereah-, well ok, is the bad harddrive SATA or PATA? 12:19:36 Slereah-, ls /dev/hd* /dev/sd* 12:19:58 Slereah-, what does that say? 12:20:56 Slereah-, ? 12:20:58 I actually only have 4 now that I think of it 12:21:07 Because of stuff from yesterday 12:21:11 oh? 12:21:15 ls: /dev/hd*: No such file or directory 12:21:15 /dev/sda /dev/sda3 /dev/sdb /dev/sdc1 /dev/sdd /dev/sde1 12:21:15 /dev/sda1 /dev/sda4 /dev/sdb1 /dev/sdc2 /dev/sdd1 12:21:15 /dev/sda2 /dev/sda5 /dev/sdc /dev/sdc5 /dev/sde 12:21:29 Slereah-, ah 12:21:46 Slereah-, now we need to figure out what one is the broken harddrive 12:21:58 sudo su - 12:22:05 run that so we get a root shell 12:22:12 then we do: 12:22:16 file /dev/sd? 12:22:24 lets see what that says 12:22:34 /dev/sda: block special (8/0) 12:22:34 /dev/sdb: block special (8/16) 12:22:34 /dev/sdc: block special (8/32) 12:22:34 /dev/sdd: block special (8/48) 12:22:34 /dev/sde: block special (8/64) 12:22:41 ok 12:22:46 file -s /dev/sd? 12:22:47 then 12:22:52 (sorry I forgot the -s first time) 12:23:20 /dev/sda: block special (8/0) 12:23:25 /dev/sdb: block special (8/16) 12:23:29 eh 12:23:29 /dev/sdc: block special (8/32) 12:23:30 that's odd 12:23:33 /dev/sdd: block special (8/48) 12:23:37 /dev/sde: block special (8/64) 12:23:38 Slereah-, it should say something else when you use -s 12:23:40 root@ubuntu:~# file -s /dev/sd? 12:23:41 /dev/sda: x86 boot sector; partition 1: ID=0x83, starthead 1, startsector 63, 26426862 sectors; partition 2: ID=0x83, starthead 0, startsector 26426925, 7181055 sectors; partition 3: ID=0x7, active, starthead 0, startsector 33607980, 120921255 sectors; partition 4: ID=0xf, starthead 0, startsector 154529235, 5526360 sectors 12:23:41 /dev/sdb: x86 boot sector, Microsoft Windows XP MBR, Serial 0x6873a38c; partition 1: ID=0xb, active, starthead 1, startsector 63, 976768002 sectors 12:23:41 /dev/sdc: x86 boot sector, Microsoft Windows XP MBR, Serial 0xeb9eeb9e; partition 1: ID=0x7, active, starthead 1, startsector 63, 78156162 sectors; partition 2: ID=0xf, starthead 0, startsector 78156225, 78140160 sectors 12:23:43 /dev/sdd: x86 boot sector, mbr; partition 1: ID=0xc, starthead 1, startsector 63, 234436482 sectors, extended partition table (last)\011 12:23:46 /dev/sde: x86 boot sector, Microsoft Windows XP MBR, Serial 0xc2514d40; partition 1: ID=0xc, starthead 1, startsector 63, 976768002 sectors, extended partition table (last)\011 12:23:49 What should it say. 12:23:56 Slereah-, ah like that last 12:23:58 right 12:24:00 seems ok 12:24:03 I misread 12:24:15 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 12:24:15 Slereah-, well ok, all of these drivers seems ok at a quick look 12:24:17 so lets do: 12:24:26 smartctl -d ata -H /dev/sda 12:24:32 smartctl -d ata -H /dev/sdb 12:24:33 smartctl -d ata -H /dev/sdc 12:24:37 smartctl -d ata -H /dev/sdd 12:24:38 smartctl -d ata -H /dev/sde 12:24:41 Well, what I could do is, turn off most of the hard drives. 12:24:41 see what happens 12:24:45 does all say PASSED? 12:24:57 or such 12:25:00 And just leave the broken one and one with enough memory left 12:25:16 Slereah-, each drive should say: 12:25:18 === START OF READ SMART DATA SECTION === 12:25:19 SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED 12:25:27 a works 12:25:35 if it doesn't include that, we know the drive is bad 12:25:46 root@ubuntu:~# smartctl -d ata -H /dev/sdb 12:25:46 smartctl version 5.36 [i686-pc-linux-gnu] Copyright (C) 2002-6 Bruce Allen 12:25:46 Home page is http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net/ 12:25:46 Smartctl: Device Read Identity Failed (not an ATA/ATAPI device) 12:25:46 A mandatory SMART command failed: exiting. To continue, add one or more '-T permissive' options. 12:25:54 Slereah-, um ok is it usb? 12:26:04 that could cause it 12:26:04 c-d-e also give that error 12:26:11 Slereah-, are they usb or? 12:26:15 All the sd are usb I think 12:26:26 Slereah-, oh they don't support SMART then 12:26:31 Wait 12:26:34 right a sec 12:26:41 a-b-c-d aren't. 12:26:45 and e too 12:26:50 hm 12:26:53 They're my partitions on my hard drive 12:27:03 Slereah-, on that would be /dev/sda2 12:27:05 And as you know, it has problems and such 12:27:07 the number is the partitions 12:27:16 the letter the disk 12:27:50 How come they contain exactly what the hard drive contains then? 12:27:58 eh, they do? 12:27:59 Three Windows installations and two linux. 12:28:10 (It was a rough couple of months) 12:28:29 -!- timotiis has joined. 12:28:31 Slereah-, ok lets just disconnect all drives that works 12:28:39 and leave the broken disk only 12:28:43 Slereah-, that should help 12:28:45 Done. 12:28:53 Slereah-, ls /dev/sd? 12:28:56 to see what one that is 12:29:12 root@ubuntu:~# ls /dev/sd? 12:29:12 /dev/sda /dev/sdd 12:29:35 aha 12:29:43 it is sdd then 12:29:50 ls /dev/sdd* 12:29:54 I sure hope so 12:29:55 to see what partitions it got 12:30:09 root@ubuntu:~# ls /dev/sdd* 12:30:09 /dev/sdd /dev/sdd1 12:30:13 then, file -s /dev/sdd* 12:30:24 lets see what they contain 12:30:35 /dev/sdd: x86 boot sector, mbr; partition 1: ID=0xc, starthead 1, startsector 63, 234436482 sectors, extended partition table (last)\011 12:30:35 /dev/sdd1: x86 boot sector, Microsoft Windows 98 Bootloader, code offset 0x5a, OEM-ID "MSWIN4.1", sectors/cluster 64, Media descriptor 0xf8, heads 255, hidden sectors 63, sectors 234436482 (volumes > 32 MB) , FAT (32 bit), sectors/FAT 28611, reserved3 0x800000, serial number 0x17ea3758, unlabeled 12:30:41 interesting 12:30:45 let me thing a second 12:30:50 Why the fuck does it contain windows 98. 12:31:00 think* 12:31:06 I mean, sure, it's the oldest one and I used 98 for quite a while. 12:31:21 yes it was *made* by windows98 12:31:22 Although maybe I did use it to install it on. 12:31:23 that is what it means 12:31:27 Oh. 12:31:36 How peculiar. 12:31:51 Slereah-, anyway so far it doesn't seem to be a broken harddrive 12:32:23 fsck.vfat -t -r /dev/sdd1 12:32:23 Well, is there a way to check what it contains? 12:32:37 Slereah-, that will do a disk check 12:32:38 including checking for bad sectors 12:33:05 Slereah-, brb need to get some water 12:33:09 root@ubuntu:~# fsck.vfat -t -r /dev/sdd1 12:33:09 dosfsck 2.11, 12 Mar 2005, FAT32, LFN 12:33:09 Got 12058624 bytes instead of 14648708 at 16384 12:33:23 SOMEONE STOLE MY BYTES D: 12:34:16 Slereah-, eh 12:34:22 Slereah-, well it is some harddrive error 12:34:32 Slereah-, say yes when it asks if you want to fix stuff 12:34:34 this may take a bit 12:34:44 I sure want to fix it 12:35:16 But by that, do you mean that it will ask me, or that you're going to give me a command that will then ask me to do it 12:35:30 Because now, it's over and I wasn't asked anything 12:35:38 Slereah-, it will ask you 12:35:40 wtf 12:35:43 Slereah-, that is odd 12:35:48 root@ubuntu:~# fsck.vfat -t -r /dev/sdd1 12:35:48 dosfsck 2.11, 12 Mar 2005, FAT32, LFN 12:35:48 Got 12058624 bytes instead of 14648708 at 16384 12:35:48 root@ubuntu:~# 12:35:53 that's all? 12:36:03 I cannot tell a lie! 12:36:06 odd 12:36:08 I also must go nom nom 12:36:14 I will come back soon 12:36:29 fsck.vfat -t -a -f /dev/sdd1 12:36:31 maybe 12:36:39 actually 12:36:41 fsck.vfat -t -a -v -f /dev/sdd1 12:36:46 that is the best guess 12:37:45 I will brb too, highlight me so I notice you are back 12:41:58 -!- Corun has joined. 12:46:14 -!- olsner_ has joined. 12:49:27 Slereah-, if that last command gives the same bad result, try this: 12:49:59 badblocks -n /dev/sdd1 12:50:05 don't abort that command! 13:01:25 I'm back 13:02:04 root@ubuntu:~# fsck.vfat -t -a -v -f /dev/sdd1 13:02:08 dosfsck 2.11 (12 Mar 2005) 13:02:12 dosfsck 2.11, 12 Mar 2005, FAT32, LFN 13:02:24 Checking we can access the last sector of the filesystem 13:02:28 Boot sector contents: 13:02:32 System ID "MSWIN4.1" 13:02:36 Media byte 0xf8 (hard disk) 13:02:40 512 bytes per logical sector 13:02:44 32768 bytes per cluster 13:02:48 32 reserved sectors 13:02:52 First FAT starts at byte 16384 (sector 32) 13:02:56 2 FATs, 32 bit entries 13:03:00 14648832 bytes per FAT (= 28611 sectors) 13:03:04 Root directory start at cluster 2 (arbitrary size) 13:03:08 Data area starts at byte 29314048 (sector 57254) 13:03:12 3662175 data clusters (120002150400 bytes) 13:03:12 63 sectors/track, 255 heads 13:03:12 63 hidden sectors 13:03:12 234436482 sectors total 13:03:12 Got 12058624 bytes instead of 14648708 at 16384 13:03:12 root@ubuntu:~# 13:03:27 And badblocks is giving me numbers. Of blocks, I assume. In a state of badness. 13:03:54 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:04:11 Owait 13:04:23 Linux just found the hard drive in question 13:04:30 (Outside the terminal) 13:04:42 I recognized the name of the volume 13:04:58 Although the clicking on open does not give many openings. 13:05:29 AnMaster 13:10:56 back 13:11:09 And badblocks is giving me numbers. Of blocks, I assume. In a state of badness. 13:11:10 hm? 13:11:27 it is probably giving you how many blocks it checked 13:12:02 Slereah-, give me an example of the badblocks output 13:12:21 Slereah-, if there are a lot listed then the disk is probably not recoverable 13:12:42 Welcome back then. 13:12:42 I certainly hope so, because there's a whole lot of numbers. 13:12:42 It would probably be a bad sign if it were the bad sectors. 13:13:14 So far : 13:13:15 root@ubuntu:~# badblocks -n /dev/sdd1 13:13:15 11776 13:13:15 11777 13:13:15 11778 13:13:15 11779 13:13:17 11780 13:13:19 11781 13:13:21 11782 13:13:21 -!- Slereah- has quit (Excess Flood). 13:13:36 -!- Slereah- has joined. 13:13:49 If those are the bad blocks, it would indeed be a bad sign 13:15:40 Although so far, it's the most I've seen of this hard drive for months. 13:16:12 I can see its actual volume name, the free space left on it, its size, its number of folders and files. 13:16:24 The only thing it lacks is the ability to actually open it. 13:17:46 Before, I would either not see it at all on Linux or see it as "Disk E" on windows. 13:17:46 Where it would say that it had a size of 0B. 13:18:27 ok 13:18:33 that are broken blocks 13:18:34 :( 13:19:00 Slereah-, they are broken blocks indeed 13:19:03 so not much we can do 13:19:05 sadly 13:19:32 Slereah-, that harddrive is dead in other words. rest in peace and piece 13:19:54 Slereah-, in the future remember to make backups 13:21:38 -!- olsner_ has quit. 13:23:30 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:25:22 -!- ubuntu__ has joined. 13:27:39 :/ 13:27:47 ubuntu__, the drive is dead I'm afraid 13:27:50 not much you can do 13:33:01 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 13:33:58 -!- ubuntu__ has changed nick to Slereah_. 13:34:11 Is there no way to get back some data? 13:34:54 Also can I stop badblocks. It saud nothing since 26263 13:38:22 -!- SchrodingersCat has joined. 13:42:32 Holy snowcone 13:42:37 I just stopped badblocks 13:42:43 And opened the hard drive 13:42:46 And it actually opened 13:42:56 Quick, to save that on the other hard drive! 13:44:26 hm 13:44:39 Slereah_, ok try it 13:44:42 Slereah_, worth a try! 13:44:47 Like hell I am! 13:44:50 badblocks disables the bad blocks, right? 13:44:59 I don't have a fucking clue 13:45:02 yeah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badblocks 13:45:06 It marks these sectors so that they are not used in the future and thus do not cause corruption of data. 13:45:11 I'm gonna download this sucker dry. 13:45:32 I hope that there's not too many corrupted files. 13:47:12 Of course, since there's a hundred gig of data in there, it might take a while. 13:47:32 This is also why I don't do back up : I have somewhere around 500 gigs of Data. 13:47:50 And I don't have a hundred DVDs. 13:48:02 -!- SchrodingersCat has left (?). 13:48:10 so buy a 500 gig hard disk 13:48:12 and back up to it 13:48:37 Well, 500 gig HD don't grow on trees 13:48:39 probably cheaper than the hundred DVDs, too. 13:48:44 That is, except the data tree 13:48:58 no, but somehow they wind up in shops anyway 13:49:14 Yeah, but they ask for pieces of papers. 13:49:18 Made from trees. 13:49:24 If you catch my drift. 13:49:29 >_< 13:50:31 That's the problem : I'm already buying a hard drive a year just to have free space 13:51:13 So buying one for back up would start to cost a lot. 13:51:34 you don't have to necessarily backup everything 13:51:40 I used to do CD back up, and I still have them, but now it would just be unpractical 13:51:56 but I think storage is fairly cheap these days 13:52:03 Yeah, probably 13:52:09 a hard drive a year isn't that much, to be honest 13:52:14 like a hundred euros 13:52:34 From where I'm standing, I get the impression that the latest hard drive storage is always around a hundred euros. 13:52:42 yes, and it generally doubles your capacity each time 13:52:46 Of course, 4 years ago, it was 80 Go. 13:53:03 I suppose that now, the 500 would cost a hundred too. 13:53:16 yes, it's a bit less than that, I think. 13:53:41 an external drive that size costs around a hundred, an internal can be got cheaper. 13:53:57 I don't care about external-internal. 13:54:12 All my ex-internal hard drives are now external. 13:54:25 The box to make them external is quite cheap. 13:54:33 so even better, you can spend around 150 euros a year to get a lot more capacity + a backup for it 13:54:42 what kind of box do you have? 13:54:58 I don't know the name. 13:55:10 It's like an external hard drive, but without the drive in it. 13:55:18 So you can put in any HD you want. 13:55:33 ah, so you have one of those for each ex-internal drive? 13:55:36 I've got two of them. 13:55:41 eah. 13:55:53 Although I'm not sure my current hard drive will go there. 13:56:13 Not only because it seems broken, but also because the plug on it is of a different shape 14:00:21 -!- ubuntu__ has joined. 14:00:21 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:00:34 -!- ubuntu__ has changed nick to Slereah_. 14:00:57 I should sort my files one day. 14:06:52 -!- jix has joined. 14:12:42 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:13:10 Ah balls, now I can't open it again. 14:13:24 The file transfer blocked on a file, I assume it was a bad block D: 14:13:36 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:14:08 I'll just redo the badblocks thingy I suppose. 14:14:30 "/dev/sdd1 is mounted; it's not safe to run badblocks!" 14:14:33 Shit. 14:16:04 -!- olsner has joined. 14:17:30 Owait, it seems to load now. 14:17:51 It just needs a unholy amount of time or something 14:18:06 I'd better throw it in a well as soon as I'm done with it 14:34:44 Hm. 14:34:44 Two of the defective files are from the old DnD cartoon. 14:34:44 Fuck that cartoon, breaking my hard drive. 14:37:55 badblocks disables the bad blocks, right? 14:37:57 no 14:38:03 that is what fsck.vfat would do 14:39:00 Ah fuck. Now there's a Highlander cartoon fucking it up. 14:39:15 Remember kids : cartoons are bad for hard drives. 14:40:40 hah 14:40:58 I'd better throw it in a well as soon as I'm done with it 14:41:03 bad for environment 14:41:05 recycle it 14:41:07 correctly 14:41:35 Like make a festive adornment out of it? 14:42:30 By the way AnMaster, do you know how to access my linux partition? 14:42:42 Slereah_, find what one it is 14:42:46 like /dev/sd4 14:42:48 err 14:42:49 like /dev/sda4 14:42:51 or whatever 14:42:52 then 14:42:57 Since I can't access it from windows, I'd like to get the data out of it 14:43:02 mkdir /mnt/linux 14:43:05 So I can nuke that disk without remorse 14:43:07 mount /dev/sda4 /mnt/linux 14:43:12 and go there 14:43:18 Slereah_, that should work ^ 14:43:28 assuming it is /dev/sda4 14:43:29 mount: mount point /mnt/linux does not exist 14:43:35 Slereah_, I said... 14:43:38 mkdir /mnt/linux 14:43:41 Oh. 14:43:54 mount: /dev/sda4: can't read superblock 14:44:05 Slereah_, find what one it is 14:44:07 Slereah_, find what one it is 14:44:19 Slereah_, check using file -s /dev/sda* 14:44:23 as root 14:44:24 'kay 14:44:36 Slereah_, to see what one say ext3 or such 14:44:56 -!- olsner has quit. 14:45:04 Well, 1 and 2 are Linux rev 1.0 ext3 filesystem data (large files) 14:45:18 If they're classed by dates, it should be 1 14:46:45 Ah yes, it works 14:46:48 Thanks. 14:46:57 It's a good thing too, because that's where all my eso stuff are. 14:47:03 Slereah_, hehe 14:47:20 Slereah_, backup everything and just install linux on the entire disk 14:47:21 :D 14:47:29 Are you madly insane? 14:47:32 no need for dirty windows 14:47:35 Slereah_, why? 14:47:42 ok spilt it half/half then 14:47:47 Almost no software works on Linux. Or at least that I can make them work there 14:48:04 As I said, the current hard drive seems fucked up. 14:48:17 Neither GParted or Partition Magic seems to be able to touch it 14:48:39 I tried to resize the partitions and all, but to no avail 14:48:51 Slereah_, tried fdisk to remove and readd 14:48:59 Slereah_, also a tip how to get dual boot to work 14:49:13 assuming you have same partition for windows as before: 14:49:14 Well, I'll try that as soon as my data are safe and sound 14:49:24 Slereah_, did you mount it on /mnt/linux 14:49:26 then: 14:49:35 chroot /mnt/linux /bin/bash 14:49:39 wait 14:49:40 no 14:49:45 Slereah_, don't run that first 14:49:47 you need: 14:49:57 mount -t proc proc /mnt/linux/proc 14:50:04 Don't worry. Rioght now, I'm moving my files on the HD. 14:50:09 mount --bind /dev /mnt/linux/dev 14:50:11 And it might take a while. 14:50:17 mount --bind /sys /mnt/linux/syc 14:50:28 chroot /mnt/linux /bin/bash 14:50:29 then 14:50:31 grub-install 14:50:34 that should solve it 14:50:35 :D 14:50:52 Slereah_, if it doesn't tell me what error that command gives 14:50:55 and we can try again 14:51:20 you will probably need to run *after* chroot: mount /boot 14:51:24 then grub-install /dev/sda 14:51:25 even 14:55:32 Ah fuck. 14:55:41 "You need permission to copy such file" 15:00:51 Slereah_, ah 15:00:56 Slereah_, you need to be root 15:01:38 Slereah_, not sure how on the livecd outside shells 15:01:42 in shells it is simple 15:01:46 just the sudo su - 15:03:03 Well, I'll do the Linux part afterward. 15:03:12 Right now, I'll do the hard drive before it explodes. 15:11:57 Slereah_, good point 15:12:02 Slereah_, is it ticking? 15:12:03 RUN 15:15:38 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 15:21:05 -!- ubuntu__ has joined. 15:21:05 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:23:01 -!- ubuntu__ has changed nick to Slereah_. 15:35:33 "erlang: the movie" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKfKtXYLG78 15:39:54 sinit, but good 15:40:57 it looks like it wwas made about 20 years befoer the language existed 15:46:41 that's the main thing I enjoy about it 15:48:24 Nce acting too 15:48:40 "Hello Joe" "Hello Mike" 15:48:57 "Stalled". 15:49:05 I suppose I'll let it cool or something. 15:49:17 well, I think these guys were actually developers, rather than professional actors 15:49:26 for engineers, they do a pretty damn good job 15:49:35 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:49:45 -!- jix has joined. 15:50:22 Slereah_: ""Stalled""? 15:50:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:51:10 File transfer 15:51:29 A fancy word for "0kB/s" 15:54:41 doesn't HTTP have some feature to resume transferring a file partway through? 15:54:51 Not internet 15:54:57 From one HD to the other 15:55:04 maybe not, as I don't recall firefox ever doing it 15:55:07 A hard drive that has known better days 15:55:38 ah, ok 16:03:46 oh deary deary me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKfKtXYLG78 16:03:52 um, wron one 16:03:57 I meantt: 16:04:06 oh deary deary me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mal6XbN5cEg&NR=1 16:06:07 I swear I've seen this before 16:10:06 -!- olsner has joined. 16:11:03 -!- olsner has quit (Client Quit). 16:14:02 -!- tusho has joined. 16:14:33 hi ais523 16:17:27 Hello Tush. 16:23:31 Hi Slerea. 16:31:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:31:53 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzYoKCl883c&feature=related 16:32:48 'Lo, Doctor. 16:33:26 pikhq: confirmed 16:36:38 oh jesus christ: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP1wPFICdUY&feature=related 16:39:02 RodgerTheGreat: Awaiting turing machine. 16:39:34 * oerjan is awaiting the Analytic Engine :D 16:39:54 How's life near the artic circle? 16:40:07 oerjan: Gah, I want an Analytical Engine. 16:40:14 How come nobody has built one? 16:40:14 Srsly. 16:40:17 surprisingly hot 16:40:30 well, not today, but a couple days ago 16:40:57 tusho: a virtual one _should_ be feasible, you'd think 16:41:08 perhaps someone did that 16:41:09 tusho: There's an interpreter for it on the internet 16:41:11 oerjan: yes, and why not a real one? 16:41:21 I'm not that hot with the analytical engine so I dunno if it's really hard or something 16:41:23 tusho: because of $$$$ 16:41:26 but it's been like 5 billion years 16:41:26 :( 16:41:35 Well, because a real one would be gigantic 16:41:43 Slereah_: precisely! 16:42:21 the problem with building an analytical engine comes mainly from the fact that it needs thousands and thousands of complex, precisely machined custom parts 16:42:48 * oerjan is disappointed that "fuck man i'm haf" isn't a palindrome. or is it? 16:43:05 it's sort of close 16:43:12 oerjan: it's the produce of moozilla writing a spec on drugs, according to official (moozilla-approved) reports 16:43:17 but yes, it'd be more fun as a palindrome 16:43:22 it's not all that different from why babbage failed to make one in his day 16:43:26 fah m'i nam kcuf 16:43:40 -!- tusho has set topic: fuck man i'm haf fah m'i nam kcuf. 16:43:42 now it's a palindrome 16:43:51 -!- tusho has set topic: fuck man i'm haf fah m'i nam kcuf | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 16:43:53 NAM NAM 16:44:25 I think you mean "NAM MAN" 16:45:15 NAM MAN NAM MAN 16:45:18 yum 16:45:20 a nam, a man, a plan 16:46:27 tusho: do you mean there is something on the outerloom about "fuck man i'm haf"? google fails me 16:46:37 oerjan: moozilla posted a spec here 16:46:39 at the bottom was 16:46:39 lol: 16:46:41 fuck man i'm haf 16:46:52 we enquired wtf that means and it turns out he wrote half of the spec on drugs 16:46:53 oh here in the channel? 16:46:56 yes 16:47:34 I bet 'fuck man i'm haf' actually transforms the language 16:47:39 into a thing of beauty and amazingness 16:47:43 but we'll never comprehend it.. 16:48:40 well not without the right drugs anyhow 16:49:38 -!- pgimeno has left (?). 16:50:37 oerjan: that'll be a problem if the US government selects it to replace ada 16:51:02 not really, since they would only do that if they were on the right drugs anyhow 16:51:36 oerjan: no, we're assuming that 'fuck man i'm haf' actually transforms it into the perfect language 16:52:08 well, then do the transformation first. 16:52:33 -!- cybergirl has joined. 16:52:46 oerjan: can't 16:52:48 it's too magical 16:53:52 "erlang: the movie" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKfKtXYLG78 <-- great! 16:55:34 -!- cybergirl has quit (Client Quit). 16:56:45 oh deary deary me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mal6XbN5cEg&NR=1 <-- ARGG! 16:56:47 ARGH* 16:58:25 { 16:58:26 This is the first ever music video about programming that has been written and performed by an actual programmer. } 16:58:26 what 17:00:15 hah 17:00:20 you know those nabaztag bunny things 17:00:25 that acn speak out rss feeds and email 17:00:27 and have an api? 17:00:29 -!- selb has left (?). 17:00:34 Some idiot set up a text box that lets you make it say anything. 17:00:45 I wonder if it's saying "FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK" as we speak? 17:04:47 oerjan: that'll be a problem if the US government selects it to replace ada 17:05:00 isn't the JSF using C++ 17:05:07 I'm pretty sure it is for some parts 17:05:14 shrug 17:05:15 so they already gave up ADA 17:05:19 sadly 17:05:25 ADA looks like a very interesting language 17:06:43 oh lord: 17:06:43 'Programmers suck balls' 17:06:47 a reddit comment 17:06:56 I've replied explaining that programmers _might_ have made reddit 17:07:25 Nah, they're too busy sucking balls. 17:07:36 Ah. 17:07:39 Who made it then? 17:07:52 Well, it clearly was intelligent design 17:07:59 So I think Jesus was involved. 17:08:37 ah 17:09:03 rubbish, it clearly evolved, that explains why it sucks so much (balls). 17:11:45 hahah 17:12:38 erlang looks like a very nice language, I even have it installed because wings3d use it 17:13:15 * SimonRC reads up 17:13:31 (was distracted by google tech talk) 17:15:39 erlang is cool 17:15:52 tusho, but those actors were quite bad 17:16:03 AnMaster: i haven't seen it, but, um, it's about programming 17:16:05 suprise suprise, then 17:16:08 *surprise 17:16:24 tusho, well maybe they were real engineers not actors 17:16:36 Very likely. 17:16:43 that could explain it 17:18:28 tusho, have you seen this: http://www.oddmusic.com/gallery/om24550.html 17:18:38 not programming but quite cool IMO 17:18:55 that is cool 17:19:19 http://www.oddmusic.com/clips/sea_organ.mp3 17:19:19 lovely 17:19:59 really lovely 17:20:28 tusho, yes I was surprised that it sounded as good as it did 17:20:48 i love non-human-made music 17:22:03 -!- olsner has joined. 17:26:20 tusho, really? 17:26:25 yes 17:26:32 what OS are you on? 17:26:38 Linux: aplay /dev/sda 17:26:39 :P 17:26:44 hehe, os x 17:26:44 freebsd: 17:26:46 I used to like: 17:26:55 cat /dev/whateveritis > /dev/dsp 17:26:59 cat /dev/random >/dev/audio 17:27:08 don't think OS X has a /dev/ file for audio though, I may be wrong 17:27:14 tusho, that is white noise more or less! 17:27:24 AnMaster: yes but if you turn it down it's quite soothing 17:27:28 rustly leavy 17:28:12 tusho, you should not do it, don't deplete the entropy pool in /dev/random 17:28:16 maybe /dev/urandom ok 17:28:29 AnMaster: i hope you're joking 17:28:39 tusho, partly yes 17:28:44 the UNIX POLICE will come after me for REDUCING ENTROPY by LISTENING TO /DEV/RANDOM 17:28:46 :D 17:28:51 hah 17:28:58 SAVE THE UNIVERSE, PRESERVE ENTROPY 17:29:16 Preserve entropy: rm /dev/*random 17:29:31 pikhq, XD 17:29:42 oerjan, nice twist! 17:29:42 pikhq: :D 17:30:10 tusho, anyway listening to an NTFS partition is quite interesting 17:30:16 tusho, it actually produces tone 17:30:19 tones* 17:30:24 AnMaster: maybe that's the origin of ntfs 17:30:26 an audio generator 17:30:30 hah XD 17:30:31 that would explain why it's a crappy filesystem 17:31:02 some noise and after a while a series of low tones about 1/10-1/4 seconds long 17:31:54 -!- Sargun has quit (No route to host). 17:32:47 tusho, it even got a nice beat, a bit noise in the sound though 17:32:55 upload an ogg? 17:33:05 tusho, how to capture from /dev/dsp? 17:33:26 AnMaster: don't pipe it to /dev/dsp 17:33:29 pipe it to an ogg encoder.. 17:33:36 (and ^C after a bit) 17:33:36 like what? 17:33:38 can you make emelets by crushing oggs? 17:33:39 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:33:48 oerjan, ha! 17:34:01 AnMaster: uh, the xiph.org ogg encoder? 17:34:03 oggenc, I believe? 17:34:05 you know ... just do 17:34:08 oggenc --raw /dev/fs -o foo.ogg 17:34:09 or something 17:34:12 and ^C after a bit 17:34:24 tusho, well lets see what that turns out in 17:35:09 tusho, doesn't sound right at all 17:35:15 tusho, it get much higher freq 17:35:22 AnMaster: you'll have to manually specify it 17:35:26 since it's raw pcm data 17:35:33 tusho, well I got no idea what to specify for it! 17:35:40 AnMaster: play around with values 17:35:46 oggenc --help, anything related to sample rate? 17:35:48 # aplay /dev/sdb1 17:35:49 Playing raw data '/dev/sdb1' : Unsigned 8 bit, Rate 8000 Hz, Mono 17:35:52 that produces useful 17:36:04 AnMaster: then .. feed it 8000 17:36:05 :\ 17:36:10 and specify mono 17:36:15 `man oggenc` 17:36:31 ah 17:36:44 tusho, ah yes works 17:37:31 tusho, you could extract my file system info from it! 17:37:35 :/ 17:37:41 AnMaster: are you being serious 17:37:43 please don't be serious 17:37:47 haha 17:38:00 tusho, well this is likely just the header 17:38:05 exactly 17:38:09 besides, I couldn't do anything with the data 17:38:14 it'd depend on all the rest... 17:38:19 and finally, the ogg encoding is lossy 17:38:23 thus major quality lossage 17:38:27 thus i couldn't recover it 17:38:35 AnMaster: oh, wait 17:38:38 redo the oggenc with 17:38:40 -q 6 17:38:41 blergh it encoded 18 mb 17:38:43 (ultra-high quality) 17:38:51 since, uh, otherwise it'll compress badly 17:38:51 tusho, why? 17:38:55 'cause of the white noise and similar 17:39:02 haha very funny 17:39:15 wasn't a joke, actually :\ it's likely to compress badly 17:39:19 but whatever, just upload it 17:39:36 sounds nice 17:39:49 yep, upload it somewhere 17:40:16 maybe we need fractal compression to deal with white noise properly 17:40:23 haha 17:40:26 a sec 17:42:25 tusho, http://omploader.org/vbDV6 17:43:18 tusho, like it? 17:43:23 loading 17:43:26 that is my old ntfs disk 17:43:30 no longer in use 17:43:48 the more modern ntfs disk doesn't sound as good 17:43:51 it is just noise 17:44:13 -!- cc_to_ide has joined. 17:44:14 this is good 17:44:25 tusho, odd that NTFS should sound good eh? 17:44:32 it's like what would happen if Autechre were tasked with making rock 17:44:43 tusho, who? 17:44:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autechre 17:45:07 tusho, I don't like rock music myself 17:45:13 but it is better than white noise 17:45:32 i like most kinds of music 17:45:40 tusho, rap? 17:45:50 * AnMaster HATES rap 17:45:54 nothing is worse than rap 17:46:01 most rap is terrible 17:46:16 but some indie-label underground rap is pretty good 17:47:10 tusho, but odd that ntfs sounds like that eh? 17:47:14 yep 17:47:40 AnMaster: care to release that under CC by-sa 3.0? :-P 17:47:45 tusho, no 17:47:49 aww 17:47:51 tusho, don't spread it 17:47:59 :( i wanna make something out of it 17:48:04 tusho, get your own 70 GB NTFS 17:48:09 or whatever it was 17:48:14 the disk was 80 GB 17:48:15 it's just the header ... and it's too distorted to be able to recover _any_ data 17:48:38 tusho, maybe CC-by-sa-nc-nd? 17:48:49 AnMaster: i said I wanted to make something out of it 17:48:53 tusho, maybe CC-by-sa-nc? 17:48:56 & i wouldn't use a -nc sample 17:49:05 tusho, well it would be -nc then 17:49:07 AnMaster: ahem 17:49:12 no discrimination against fields of endeavour, AnMaster 17:49:21 thought you liked free software? 17:49:34 tusho, well yes but music is different 17:49:39 is it, now? 17:49:42 why? 17:49:50 tusho, anyway it is likely to be copyright microsoft? 17:50:01 AnMaster: by that logic MS own your whole disc 17:50:06 because it's encoded with ntfs 17:50:09 yeah wrong 17:50:48 tusho, also I don't believe it is too distorted to recover data from unless you can prove it 17:50:53 * SimonRC wonders if there are any really good Shepard Scales out there... 17:51:02 SimonRC, any good what? 17:51:12 tusho, what did you plan to make with it though? 17:51:14 AnMaster: uh, do you know anything about lossy compression? 17:51:17 all the ones I can find sound like they have a distinct jump up.down in them 17:51:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepard_tone 17:51:25 the information loss will be _huge_ especially at the low quality (khz etc) it's at 17:51:27 just human ears suck 17:51:38 notes that go up continuously without getting anywhere 17:51:44 AnMaster: anyway, I'd probably just make some kind of track out of it 17:51:54 or rather with it 17:53:20 SimonRC, the one on wikipedia sounds good 17:54:25 It might be good to be able to tweak the volumes to fit your own ears 17:55:25 the frequency response of human ears is complicated 17:56:09 SimonRC, I didn't hear any gap in it 17:57:55 the fade-in seems quite sudden around the 21s and 42s mark 17:59:27 -!- cc_toide has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:02:43 yeah... I think there must be quite a sharp change in my frequency response at some point 18:02:55 presumably software can be made to hide it 18:05:18 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit. 18:11:00 SimonRC, I see what you mean at high volumne 18:11:02 volume* 18:11:41 SimonRC, but you mean 23 and 45 18:25:41 the rhythmic equivalent: http://swiki.hfbk-hamburg.de:8888/MusicTechnology/uploads/826/Risset_accelerando_beat1.mp3 18:29:34 in fact that kinda has a shepard tone in it too 18:29:47 SimonRC, that got a clear "jump" 18:30:19 yeah, the point at which one of the tones gains a lower component and the other doesn't 18:30:45 SimonRC, and it horrible 18:31:49 that too 18:32:02 it's all those infinitely-fast notes I expect 18:32:02 SimonRC, how long is it? 18:32:12 in total? 18:32:15 yes 18:32:19 few minutes I think 18:32:23 ugh 18:32:27 * AnMaster stops listening 18:32:50 * AnMaster starts listing to what he was listing to be before (restful music, enya to be exact) 18:34:43 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 18:36:04 well, it is supposed to be paradoxical, not necessarily nice-sounding 18:40:21 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 18:41:46 http://swiki.hfbk-hamburg.de:8888/MusicTechnology/uploads/826/Risset_accelerando_beat1.mp3 is lovely 18:43:15 are you being sarcastic? 18:43:22 SimonRC: no, i really like it 18:43:25 he must be 18:43:26 ok 18:43:36 AnMaster: nope 18:43:42 tusho, odd 18:43:51 well, I found an apparently improved version... 18:44:00 and the software that renders it is free 18:44:02 ... 18:44:15 SimonRC, open source? Linux? 18:44:19 AnMaster: hey, it has like infinity times more structure than a lot of stuff I listen to 18:44:21 ooh, sourecforge has a windows port... 18:44:24 AnMaster: yes, yes 18:44:34 SimonRC, link then? 18:44:41 http://elists.resynthesize.com/sc-users/2006/09/1634650/Re-Risset-accelerando.html 18:44:45 http://supercollider.sourceforge.net/downloads 18:44:52 * SimonRC tries it out 18:46:45 the mp3 I posted was a rendering of some code that is earlier in the thread that the "improved" code is in 18:47:28 nice either way 18:51:17 * SimonRC comes up with a random filesystem idea.. 18:51:21 "lurking mounts" 18:52:05 it means: if such-and-such directory is created, it should also have a certain filesystem atomically mounted there 18:52:54 SimonRC, why is that interesting/good/esoteric? 18:52:59 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:59:20 Hmm. 18:59:31 I had an idea so that you could REALLY filter /dev/random to make something. 18:59:32 -!- cc_toide has joined. 18:59:39 Specifically a music maker which by default read from /dev/random 18:59:43 And you'd just tweak it until it sounded good. 18:59:56 UNIX editor wars hardcority won! 19:01:21 AnMaster: I was think about windows 19:01:32 oh, wait... 19:01:32 SimonRC, oh? 19:01:34 ah 19:01:53 if you know the director stucture that some program will create... 19:02:02 and you want to split it across devices... 19:02:07 tusho, /dev/urandom or /dev/random? 19:02:14 you don't get a lot from /dev/random 19:02:16 AnMaster: /dev/random 19:02:22 it'd buffer it 19:02:28 it would take time 19:02:37 but you can't mount the directories until the installer has created them 19:02:38 AnMaster: yes, you'd have to leave it starting up for a while 19:02:40 but after that... 19:03:05 SimonRC, well if the installer didn't accept pre-created directories it would be crap 19:03:12 and the installer puts files in the directories immediately after creating them 19:03:34 -!- Slereah- has joined. 19:04:18 I am back people. 19:05:34 Slereah-: Read as 'black'. 19:05:47 Well I am not black. 19:05:54 You know what they say. 19:06:04 "Once you go black, we don't want you back" 19:06:04 no? 19:06:13 ugh 19:07:22 Slereah-: Being black is a choice! Just like being gay! 19:07:34 (The sarcasm level in #esoteric today is more than AnMaster can handle.) 19:07:59 The hard drive is almost downloaded. 19:08:17 * tusho downloads a harddrive 19:08:26 -_- 19:08:33 tusho, WHERE? 19:08:41 AnMaster: /dev/sda1 19:08:45 tusho, haha 19:08:50 Oh, wait, you mean the black and gay people? 19:08:53 tusho, that would be ext3 19:09:04 AnMaster: Fine then. 19:09:06 tusho, no where you can you download a 2 GB drive 19:09:18 And I didn't lose too much data 19:09:18 And most of it, I can probably get back. 19:09:21 Hmm. I wonder where OS X stores its HD devices. 19:09:25 I know the mounts are in /Volumes.. 19:09:38 tusho, see what mount outputs? 19:09:51 /dev/disk0s2 on / (local, journaled) 19:09:53 The more you know! 19:10:41 ok, this is harder than I though... 19:10:45 -!- timotiis has quit (Connection timed out). 19:11:18 the language appears to be smalltalk-based 19:11:28 Whut language, SimonRC 19:12:44 -!- olsner has quit. 19:14:26 -!- cc_to_ide has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:17:13 tusho: The supercollider one 19:39:47 well, it turns ou that the code was corrupted by the email-address-removed in the archiving software 19:39:47 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:40:28 I am using my amazing hacker powers to repair this and learn enough of the language to do so 19:41:29 -!- Slereah- has joined. 19:41:36 oh yea 19:41:38 Back on the windows. 19:41:47 I got it working 19:41:48 I think 19:41:50 The last bit of the hard drive will wait for tomorrow 19:42:25 it sounds more convincing that the other rhythm 19:42:40 summary: 19:42:50 take this code: http://elists.resynthesize.com/sc-users/2006/09/1634650/Re-Risset-accelerando.html 19:43:11 repair the "[EMAIL REMOVED]" with "pulses[1] + pulses[2] + pulses[3]" 19:43:35 how about upload it for u 19:43:35 :P 19:43:38 *us 19:43:42 will do 19:43:54 then set the Server.default to server.internal 19:43:58 then run 19:44:01 'cause, you know 19:44:03 running programs 19:44:05 booooooooooooooooooooooooring 19:44:12 yes, doing it. 19:44:29 suggest where to upload it to 19:54:26 SimonRC, pastebin? 19:54:46 SimonRC, in a way that doesn't need any external program 19:54:56 *sigh* 19:55:00 j/k 19:55:15 I fiddled the fading formula though 19:56:38 SimonRC, upload sample at ompload 19:56:42 that would be good 19:56:50 if that is what you meant 19:57:05 * SimonRC tries to figure out how to record 20:14:00 -!- Ilari has quit ("Won't be back here for at least some time..."). 20:28:13 * SimonRC gives up on that 20:35:59 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:36:00 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:37:12 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 20:38:14 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:45:04 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:45:10 -!- Slereah- has joined. 20:49:57 dudes 20:49:57 http://nic.sh/ 20:50:01 think about it 20:50:03 install.sh 20:50:05 GregorR: you'll like that 20:53:02 * SimonRC fails to see the joke 20:56:23 * SimonRC realises that a 22MB audio file is rather large 20:56:41 oh fuck this 20:57:00 SimonRC: shell files 20:57:00 .sh 20:58:16 ah, ok 20:58:25 I thought that nic.sh was the joke itself 20:58:36 but of course, it is the NIC 20:59:15 configure.sh 20:59:20 aw 20:59:21 fi.sh 20:59:22 taken 21:00:05 http://nic.sh/cgi-bin/whois?query=fi.sh&search=Search 21:00:05 * SimonRC looks at the cayman islands' NIC 21:00:06 :( 21:00:13 a.k.a nic.ky 21:06:53 -!- olsner has joined. 21:23:15 SimonRC: hahaha 21:24:39 ba.sh? 21:25:07 unfortunately, .ho isn't a domain 21:25:09 tus.ho 21:25:23 Yet. 21:25:32 (TLDs are for sale) 21:25:36 pikhq: I don't have 50k 21:25:40 What a shame. 21:26:02 pikhq: We should get, collectively, .eso 21:26:05 wiki.eso 21:26:06 eso.eso (for ESO) 21:26:09 brainfuck.eso 21:26:17 http://wiki.eso/Brainfuck 21:28:13 $50/yr? Lame 21:28:38 GregorR: Hmm. Most awesome TLD ever: . 21:28:42 Why? 21:28:44 Because .tld works. 21:28:47 So. 21:28:52 See me at http colon slash slash dot! 21:29:05 GregorR: OR 21:29:08 .www 21:29:11 http://www.www.www/ 21:29:14 com.google.www ! 21:29:21 bah 21:29:22 Oh god it smells of java. 21:29:26 HAHAHA 21:29:43 * SimonRC wishes that domain names were big-endian 21:30:12 and not just so someone could register sh.it 21:30:32 it would fit in properly with the rest of URLs 21:31:09 I would register com.munist 21:31:17 And org.asm 21:31:21 currently the heirarchy goes: 1://4.3.2/5/6/7 which is just ridiculous 21:31:33 GregorR: then sell them for 1000 times the amount? 21:31:48 By what stretch of the imagination is the protocol the highest precedence? 21:31:54 Uh SimonRC 21:31:57 We can register sh.it. 21:32:02 tusho: good point 21:32:11 GregorR: maybe not then 21:32:27 ok: http://3.2.1/4/5/6 21:32:32 er no 21:32:36 protocol is 7 21:32:46 no 21:32:49 No, because the path needs the protocol to be meaningful. 21:32:52 True. 21:32:53 Okay. 21:32:56 Then protocol is 4. 21:33:00 I agree. 21:33:02 4://3.2.1/5/6/7 21:33:04 some protocols don;t have paths 21:33:06 That's not too illogical. 21:33:09 waitamo... 21:33:11 It descends for a bit then rises. 21:33:12 But, to be honest 21:33:15 You want to know the site name 21:33:17 not that it's in .com 21:33:21 protocol must come first... 21:33:30 Admittedly, you generally don't care about the protocol, but still. 21:33:32 It's semi-logical. 21:33:44 (a) it determines what code one uses to access the data 21:33:55 (b) some protocols don't have servers or paths 21:34:04 e.g. file:// or news:// 21:34:05 you can always attach a protocol to a server 21:34:09 that's what dns is all about 21:34:58 tusho: except some protocols don't have servers specified 21:35:08 that's not a URI then 21:35:11 i mean, well 21:35:15 sigh, I'm not explaining this right 21:35:47 anyway, this is distracting from my main point, which is that domains are backwards 21:35:52 which sucks 21:36:18 no 21:36:19 it doesn't 21:36:53 well, it is inelegant 21:37:19 no 21:37:21 not imo 21:37:43 !seen ais523? 21:38:08 I would prefer the endianness of domains to match the rest of the URL (disregarding the protocol for the moment) 21:43:28 -!- timotiis has joined. 21:50:47 -!- olsner has quit. 22:11:34 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 22:24:45 -!- Judofyr__ has joined. 22:25:53 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:26:58 -!- Judofyr___ has joined. 22:27:42 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:28:05 -!- Judofyr___ has quit (Client Quit). 22:28:32 -!- Slereah- has joined. 22:38:50 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:42:37 -!- Judofyr__ has quit (Connection timed out). 22:47:18 -!- RedDak has joined. 22:49:33 * RedDak saluta a tutti! 22:50:17 RedDak: wut 22:57:00 -!- Corun has joined. 23:01:15 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 23:01:41 RedDak, wtf? 23:24:52 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 23:30:34 * SimonRC goes to bed. 2008-07-07: 00:09:11 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:41:16 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:17:26 -!- cc_to_ide has joined. 01:29:33 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:36:03 -!- cc_toide has quit (Connection timed out). 01:45:36 -!- Corun has joined. 01:45:51 -!- tusho has quit. 02:35:54 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 02:42:37 -!- cc_to_ide has changed nick to cctoide. 02:56:02 -!- cctoide has quit ("Leaving"). 04:37:26 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:06:18 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 05:27:18 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 05:27:24 'sup, folks? 05:53:25 'lo 05:54:25 what are you up to this evening, GreaseMonkey? 05:54:55 coding a new bot 05:55:04 piemonkey is pretty hackish 05:56:15 neat 05:56:49 I've been working on stuff for a comic book I plan to make 06:31:51 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:32:29 -!- cherez has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:20 G'night all 08:04:14 -!- jix has joined. 08:19:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:49:55 -!- Hiato has joined. 10:04:58 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 10:56:14 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Remote closed the previous member app"). 11:35:34 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:03:15 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 12:03:15 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:05:01 -!- Slereah- has joined. 12:05:01 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:25:50 People, never go three years without sorting your files 12:25:54 You'll regret it 12:30:40 -!- timotiis has joined. 12:46:10 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:48:16 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 12:48:46 -!- sebbu has quit (Nick collision from services.). 12:48:48 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 12:48:54 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 13:20:36 hm 13:20:49 no one seen ais? 13:20:53 or tusho? 13:21:05 (the place is boring without them) 13:21:14 ;) 13:22:21 Deewiant, there? 13:22:22 -!- planofish has joined. 13:22:30 -!- planofish has left (?). 13:22:35 does a D program made for phobos compile and work with tango? 13:29:15 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:30:29 AnMaster: you'll need tangobos and might need to make some small changes 13:30:38 ah 13:31:06 well that genx that tusho recommended, LOTS of compiler warnings 13:31:20 mostly casting const char* to non-const ones 13:31:37 so compile that file without warnings. :-P 13:31:51 Deewiant, no, rather fix them 13:32:51 I generally don't bother if it's somebody else's code and known to work 13:33:00 but yes, that works too. :-P 13:36:00 Deewiant, I have high quality standards for code I use in my own projects, way higher than if I just depend on it already being installed (and currently I only depend on libc, and optionally boehm-gc) 13:50:07 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:54:11 Deewiant, down to 2 warnings now 13:54:16 these two will be hard to fix 14:37:52 Deewiant, also it uses sprintf in some places instead of snprintf 14:37:56 UGH 14:41:51 nothing wrong with that if you have a buffer of the max possible size 14:42:00 e.g. %d and 11 14:53:11 Deewiant, indeed, but that wasn't the case here 14:53:13 it was strings 14:53:23 static constUtf8 storePrefix(genxWriter w, constUtf8 prefix, Boolean force) 14:53:30 sprintf((char *) buf, "xmlns:%s", prefix); 14:53:40 and if they're internal, they might now the size 14:53:55 Deewiant, I traced the code backwards, it is not checked before it is sent to said function 15:03:13 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:03:41 AnMaster: there? 15:04:25 ais523, yes? 15:04:32 AnMaster: I finished fffungi 15:04:36 wow! 15:04:44 but there are some things I'd like to discuss with you about it 15:04:50 yes, go ahead 15:04:59 the main issue is distributing it 15:05:07 at the moment I have patches + a script that applies them 15:05:12 hm 15:05:27 but the patches being GPLv3 makes it kind of tricky to distribute with C-INTERCAL 15:05:41 ais523, isn't C-INTERCAL "gpl2 or later"? 15:05:44 yes 15:05:49 the distribution's fine 15:06:01 it's just having two files that aren't normally used with a different licence is a pain to explain on the 'packaging' 15:06:24 ais523, well cfunge already contains some BSD code in lib, and shortly also some MIT 15:06:29 ofc I could just licence the patches under gpl2+ as it would come to the same thing when combined with your gpl3 code, but I'd need your permission to do that 15:06:34 included and customized libraries basically 15:06:45 oh, I found a bug in cfunge's string load 15:06:51 oh? 15:06:54 Deewiant: also a bug in mycology 15:06:56 details so I can fix it 15:07:03 AnMaster: off-by-one in the loop counter 15:07:14 you basically put the trailing NUL of the string onto the end of the program 15:07:23 ais523: \o 15:07:23 so if you try to wrap round the bottom row, it hits the NUL and reflects 15:07:33 ah 15:07:40 Deewiant: if negative k reflects, then it prints 'reflects' but also another message 15:07:42 ais523, got a patch for that? ;) 15:07:46 AnMaster: yep 15:07:53 also another patch which it would be helpful for you to apply 15:08:03 which doesn't affect cfunge at all when not combined with C-INTERCAL 15:08:08 ais523, oh btw your patch is your custom interpreter main loop file + your fingerprint right? in that case, go ahead with GPL2+ 15:08:12 Deewiant: I think you have a missing semicolon 15:08:17 AnMaster: yes, that's all 15:08:25 ais523, care to upload the patches somewhere? 15:08:26 I've pushed fffungi to the C-INTERCAL repo 15:08:29 so I can review and such 15:08:32 so you can get it from there 15:08:56 * AnMaster darcs pull 15:09:21 ais523, where in c-intercal repo? 15:09:34 the patch is etc/cfunge.patch 15:09:47 for the whole thing, the script's etc/cftoec.sh 15:09:53 which compiles cfunge into a library 15:10:03 ais523: hmm, doesn't look like that to me... what does it print? 15:10:16 Deewiant: maybe I have an older version 15:10:18 let me run it again 15:10:42 UNDEF: k with a negative argument executes more often than the absolute value of the argumenteflects 15:10:48 ais523, the other patch hm I see yes 15:10:59 lets me use a command-line define to change the handprint 15:11:08 um 15:11:14 that sounds like an old mycology? 15:11:17 ais523: looks like what it actually does is it executes more often and then prints something extra 15:11:37 Deewiant: nah, it reflects, but after pushing the string "reflects" to the stack it ends up in a different string by mistake 15:11:45 hmm 15:11:47 there's a semicolon meant to skip that bit, but it doesn't match another semicolon 15:11:49 6443244db122653f5479bd1751988175 *mycology.b98 15:12:03 Deewiant, didn't you fix that bug some ages ago iirc? 15:12:07 there should be a semicolon in column 110 which it skips to 15:12:15 (from column 47) 15:12:30 and yes, this is from the latest version of mycology which dates back to may 15:12:44 -!- Corun has joined. 15:13:24 I only have a changelog up to march and I don't see me messing with that, but it could be it was earlier 15:13:24 ah yes, I think I just have an old version 15:13:36 2007-12-02 16:35 mycology.b98 15:13:46 yes, that's old :-) 15:13:46 I'm going to have to get a newer version, I think 15:15:18 ais523, they are commited locally (with minor changes to add a comment explaining why I did that in global.h) but not pushed as the local code is broken (changing TURT to use the a library for xml generation, library is added under lib/genx/*.c) 15:15:34 ah, ok 15:15:45 I'll remove the bit of my code that patches cfunge once the newer version is pushed 15:15:58 oh, and the fingerprint still says example.com as the URL 15:16:08 I'll fix that once I have a website up describing it 15:16:30 there's a page in the C-INTERCAL manual describing IFFI now, so I just need to put the manual online and I can link to that 15:16:37 incidentally, have you tried the test program? 15:16:51 pit/tests/iffit1.i with pit/tests/iffit2.b98 15:17:57 ais523, haven't tried it yet as my local cfunge source doesn't compile atm 15:18:06 ok 15:18:10 try it with an older revision 15:18:19 too lazy, it will be fixed soon 15:28:15 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:45:20 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:49:28 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:49:38 -!- jix has joined. 16:07:06 ais523, there? 16:07:10 yes 16:07:11 would this be valid C: 16:07:12 genxStartElement(g_path) || return false; 16:07:14 just wondering 16:07:21 no, return isn't a function 16:07:27 ah right 16:07:28 you can do || exit(EXIT_FAILURE) though 16:07:29 true 16:07:36 ais523, no I don't want that 16:07:39 except that exit returns void 16:07:56 so I suggest you use an if 16:08:53 -!- tusho has joined. 16:09:24 hi ais523 16:09:27 hi tusho 16:09:30 you win 16:09:54 yep 16:10:23 ais523: when did it arrive at your end? 16:10:26 16:09 16:10:35 before I focused Konversation 16:10:51 anyway, I finished my C-INTERCAL/cfunge FFI 16:11:00 ais523: i meant to the second, really 16:11:00 :P 16:11:04 and cool 16:14:32 tusho, btw you said genx handled CDATA? it doesn't 16:14:37 also the code is way ugglier now 16:14:41 huh, I was pretty sure it did. 16:14:47 I will mention this is thanks to you in a comment 16:14:49 well, it may be uglier but it's more correct 16:14:54 a lot of static buffers 16:15:01 as I need to do stuff like: 16:15:09 snprintf(sminx, sizeof(sminx), FIXEDFMT, PRINTFIXED(minx)); 16:15:09 snprintf(sminy, sizeof(sminy), FIXEDFMT, PRINTFIXED(miny)); 16:15:15 genxAddAttributeLiteral(gw, gns, (constUtf8)"x", (constUtf8)sminx); 16:15:15 genxAddAttributeLiteral(gw, gns, (constUtf8)"y", (constUtf8)sminy); 16:15:19 and so on and so on 16:15:23 AnMaster: send patches to tim bray making it better. 16:15:26 i'm sure he'd love them 16:15:53 tusho, also it contained sprintf() for untrusted data instead of snprintf() (fixed that) and lots and lots of compiler warnings 16:16:09 fixed all but two compiler warings 16:16:11 warnings* 16:16:18 it was developed circa 2004 16:16:22 so gcc is probably more pedantic now 16:16:24 again thanks to you cfunge will no longer compile with -Werror 16:16:29 unless you plan to send me a patch 16:16:39 AnMaster: fix the other two maybe...? 16:16:55 tusho, they are quite complex cases of casting a const char * to a char * 16:17:03 that will need major redesign to work 16:17:42 this is why you don't use const :) 16:17:47 tusho, ... 16:17:51 the code already does 16:17:58 also a string literal is a const char * 16:18:46 tusho, also creating a path is much harder as the path goes inside an attribute 16:18:57 so I need to malloc() a buffer for them and grow it as needed 16:19:06 AnMaster: ok, are you going to complain at me for like five hours about it? 16:19:16 as I can't just append like I could with fprintf() before 16:19:30 tusho, why would I? 16:19:47 tusho, I think you overcomplicate stuff though 16:19:51 AnMaster: you've managed 5 minutes already 16:19:51 :) 16:20:02 [... and me overcomplicating stuff? Coming from you?] 16:20:24 I would prefer S-Expressions 16:20:29 way more elegant than XML 16:21:18 AnMaster: Produce s-expressions and use the scheme SXML library to turn them into XML. 16:21:26 I think it runs on Guile so you should be able to embed it. 16:21:31 haha 16:21:43 that would be even more overcomplicated and bloated 16:22:24 anyway, anyone who likes looking at Befunge-98 code with COME FROMs in: http://eso-std.org/darcs/c-intercal/pit/tests/iffit2.b98 16:22:35 that interfaces with http://eso-std.org/darcs/c-intercal/pit/tests/iffit1.i 16:22:50 just a test program, all they do is print out numbers in sequence as they do various tests 16:23:29 oh, I went a bit overboard in the Befunge program 16:23:56 it's pretty dense, with code interleaving around other code, and also self-modifying 16:24:05 not only that, but it alters the syntax of the INTERCAL program 16:24:08 because I wanted to test that 16:25:14 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 16:25:15 that befunge code is write only heh 16:25:27 AnMaster: you can read individual bits 16:25:31 by tracing them in your head 16:25:40 start at the start, and also in each possible direction from each middot 16:26:06 I find Befunge isn't usually as hard to read as it looks 16:26:12 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 16:26:17 compared to something like Unlambda, for instance, which is usually as hard to read as it looks 16:27:04 -!- Corun has joined. 16:28:37 blregh I got to write a generic string builder with append or this will be painful 16:28:45 actually that could be useful in other parts too 16:29:00 oh wait I think I can take that from crossfire maybe, it got a stringconstructor iirc 16:33:59 Deewiant: "BAD: O opened 'mycotemp.tmp' for reading, won't overwrite it and thus won't test fingerprint" <-- what does that mean? 16:34:13 ais523: it means just what it says 16:34:19 ais523, that you should do rm mycotemp.tmp 16:34:22 and then try again 16:34:22 it managed to open 'mycotemp.tmp' so it won't overwrite it 16:34:28 ah 16:34:32 just in case you actually put something important in a file called mycotemp.tmp :-P 16:35:02 well, in that case ick passes mycology 16:35:18 although it's cfunge doing all the work behind the scenes, of course 16:35:21 so not that surprising 16:36:26 maybe I should write a test for IFFI... 16:36:36 that works Mycology-style 16:36:45 rather than just writing numbers 16:36:51 although I suppose Mycology writes numbers to start with 16:37:36 it has to since it only assumes that the few instructions in sanity.bf work :-) 16:37:45 yes, I know 16:37:52 in my case I wrote out numbers to save program size 16:38:01 of course I could easily have assumed that , works and not . 16:38:05 and also because reading out strings is a pain in INTERCAL 16:38:16 heh 16:38:21 Deewiant: not that easily, you'd be limited to control codes until you got arithmetic working 16:38:38 ah, true 16:38:47 that explains why I chose it like that ;-) 16:38:59 incidentally, for testing = 16:39:05 I think the echo command does the same thing on all platforms 16:39:18 as it just happens to have the same meaning in DOS, in Windows and in UNIX 16:39:32 that would work for C-system-style = 16:39:49 ais523: it's not exactly the same, as you might imagine 16:39:54 no, it isn't 16:40:05 but when given one argument consisting of nothing but letters it is 16:40:11 if that argument isn't "on" or "off" 16:40:15 :) 16:40:49 just pedantic enough now, I approve 16:41:07 ais523: echo doesn't exist in Windows or DOS except as a builtin of the shell 16:41:22 Deewiant: yep, but C system() always invokes the shell in DOS/Windows 16:41:25 ah, but = was C system() 16:41:51 except under DJGPP it optimises it if it notices that the shell isn't needed, but invokes the shell if it is 16:42:01 so it always works as if the shell was invoked 16:42:15 how can it know that at compile-time? O_o 16:42:41 Deewiant: it doesn't, there's a check in their version of libc 16:42:50 ah 16:42:56 but hmm 16:43:01 how can it know it even then 16:43:14 the shell in DOS is pretty dumb 16:43:29 yes compared to a UNIX shell 16:43:35 but it's still usable, just about 16:43:37 I mean there's the short list of builtins 16:43:45 but no globbing 16:43:55 not much interesting chaining of commands 16:43:56 Deewiant: checks to see if it refers to an executable on the PATH that isn't a shell builtin 16:44:02 does the shell handle piping ? 16:44:08 Dewi: not exactly 16:44:09 it does 16:44:13 yeah, I just realized that being DOS-only means that you only have to worry about one shell :-) 16:44:14 but DOS is single-threaded 16:44:25 so it pipes through tempfiles 16:44:31 ais523: ew 16:44:38 ais523: that sounds familiar 16:44:42 ais523: I wonder if I suppressed that memory 16:44:53 ais523: winnt cmd.exe doesn't do that does it? 16:45:04 Dewi: not sure, cmd.exe is somewhat improved 16:45:10 I don't have a copy here to try it on 16:45:17 I'd have to switch to a Windows computer to test 16:45:18 it doesn't 16:45:40 a few years ago when I was in the transitional phase from thinking in windows to thinking in unix... I used to write a lot of batch files that invoked inline perl 16:45:50 i.e. yes | head terminates 16:45:59 ah, that's good 16:46:02 and I was surprised how hard I could push windows piping 16:46:11 Dewi: i hate you for not being Deewiant 16:46:12 :( 16:46:14 people act like cmd.exe almost doesn't have it, but it's actually rather good 16:46:30 tusho: me too 16:46:38 Dewi: start being Deewiant 16:46:47 A quote I remember, not sure where from: "Microsoft shoved a lot of standard UNIX shell functionality into cmd.exe while no-one was looking" 16:46:51 tusho: but I also reserve some hatred for Deewiant choosing such a name 16:47:01 but cmd.exe still has insane variables 16:47:20 yeah the rest of it's hideous 16:47:40 the quoting rules of process execution on windows are brilliant 16:47:44 but it's surprising how similar a batch file can be to a simple shell script if you have enough textutils installed 16:47:50 let me dig them up for your viewing pleasure 16:48:02 Deewiant: nobody ever, EVER quotes correctly in windows batch files 16:48:08 Deewiant: I've run into them before 16:48:16 Deewiant: people think it's bad in unix, but... urgh 16:48:26 hm 16:48:28 and I have managed to quote correctly before, but only in situations where all the things I was quoting were string literals 16:48:31 even then it can be tricky 16:48:56 I always manage to invoke the crazy thing to do filenames correctly 16:49:03 the fish shell never requires quoting 16:49:04 hmm, can't find them 16:49:05 I kinda like that 16:49:09 argh too much to read 16:49:09 it seems like a sane shell 16:49:10 but the other day I found even that got me into trouble because doing so expands the full path, and I needed a relative form 16:49:12 anything important? 16:49:14 Dewi: well, cmd.exe tab-completes the quoting correctly 16:49:14 I thought I remembered a place where they're linked but it wasn't there after all 16:49:17 ais523, ^ 16:49:21 that's a useful trick to know 16:49:29 ais523: I meant for variables 16:49:32 AnMaster: not really, we were just discussing Windows shells 16:49:37 oh ok 16:49:41 bbl food 16:49:42 Dewi: yep, that's harder 16:49:44 ais523: the big problem is this, the shell doesn't remove quotes on batch file invocations 16:50:13 Dewi: not even if you use call? 16:50:18 ais523: so if your batch file needs to pass the param on again, it's going to either add another layer of quotes if the original user included them, or fail to add them and possibly break stuff 16:50:28 ugh 16:50:32 ah, here we are 16:50:33 http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.environment.getcommandlineargs.aspx 16:50:38 recursive batch files were always a bad idea under DOS 16:50:46 If a double quotation mark follows two or an even number of backslashes, each proceeding backslash pair is replaced with one backslash and the double quotation mark is removed. If a double quotation mark follows an odd number of backslashes, including just one, each preceding pair is replaced with one backslash and the remaining backslash is removed; however, in this case the double quotation mark is not removed. 16:50:57 especially as they acted like UNIX exec when called by default, and you needed a special prefix to be able to return from them 16:51:29 ais523: so to feel a little bit safe you can go "%~1" 16:51:30 same under windows 16:51:34 the prefix is "call" 16:51:37 Deewiant: that page doesn't open correctly in Konqueror at all, there are no scrollbars so I can't read more than the first few sentences 16:51:40 Deewiant: yes, I know 16:51:54 ais523: not surprising... I pasted the relevant bit 16:52:01 ais523: aah see that's the correct thing, "%~1" but I sometimes forget, the other day I was using something like "%~dpnx1" which is fine but it does expand to a full absolute canonical path, which can be bad 16:52:04 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:52:21 HALO AIS523 16:52:24 Deewiant: that definition's the way C strings are quoted 16:52:33 ais523: but these are invocations you never see in batch files you encounter, those are just pretty much always wrong 16:52:53 Deewiant: ooh, that's eeevil 16:53:08 ais523: hm, is it? darn 16:53:31 Deewiant: except that it strips unquoted double-quotes rather than using them as string delimiters 16:54:19 Dewi: well, utilities like find on UNIX/Linux have similar quoting problems when used on files that contain literal newlines in their names 16:54:37 ais523: any kind of space, I thought 16:54:51 Dewi: it's possible to quote spaces more easily than newlines 16:54:56 although they can also be problems 16:55:20 ais523: that's something I find really odd about 'find'. By default, filenames with spaces break it. You can use \0, and usually I do, but newlines feel "good enough" in a lot of cases 16:55:29 ais523: but only the most recent gnu finds allow you to use newline as delimeter 16:55:51 to the point where I usually end up doing - perl -pe 's/\n/\0/;' | xargs -0 16:56:03 Dewi: well, I use newline-delimited find when compiling cfunge, because I know that AnMaster's unlikely to put newlines or spaces in filenames there 16:56:23 ais523: in my view, spaces in filenames is pretty common. Newlines is... really odd 16:56:25 AnMaster: also, let me know if you plan to give two files the same filename in different directories, my current code will break if you do that 16:56:39 Dewi: spaces in filenames is common on Windows but not on Unices 16:57:02 here we are 16:57:03 http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb776391.aspx 16:57:13 2n backslashes followed by a quotation mark produce n backslashes followed by a quotation mark. 16:57:14 whereas newlines in filenames is impossible on Windows before the most recent versions (and impossible through the normal interfaces) and very rare on Unices 16:57:16 (2n) + 1 backslashes followed by a quotation mark again produce n backslashes followed by a quotation mark. 16:57:20 n backslashes not followed by a quotation mark simply produce n backslashes. 16:57:34 Deewiant: ugh, that is pretty different from C quoting 16:57:40 ais523: yeah. So I'd be pretty comfortable using newlines 16:57:52 ais523: yeah, and that's what I was looking for. :-) 16:57:56 ais523: but xargs on lots of machines won't let me. -0 works everywhere though 16:58:25 * for provincial values of everywhere 16:58:29 Dewi: well, keeping in with the normal INTERCAL method of finding an unusual way to do things, I used find -printf to print out shell commands and piped find's output to sh 16:58:45 unfortunately that is a bit insane 16:58:54 ais523: actually... I invoke find like this really very often 16:59:04 normally I try to find a way that's sane but nobody uses it for some reason 16:59:21 find -print0 | xargs -0r -n1 bash -c 'mv -i "$0" "$0.bak"' 16:59:27 such as C-INTERCAL running just fine after a configure and make but no install, you simply have to give the path to the executable explicitly 16:59:30 ^ rename filename to filename.bak. 16:59:51 totally safe. *bash* making things *safe*. Hard to imagine isn't it 17:00:02 Dewi: find -printf 'mv %f %f.bak' | sh 17:00:14 and that method breaks if the filenames contain literal double-quotes, surely? 17:00:20 that is, your method 17:00:20 ais523: less safe, spaces, newlines, etc 17:00:24 otoh my method breaks a lot more 17:00:24 ais523: nope 17:00:29 it wasn't meant to be safe 17:00:30 just insane 17:01:19 ais523: because bash gets exactly 3 parameters with that invocation, and $0 is the one that came after the command 17:01:32 and since I have double-quoted the $0, that's watertight, or should be 17:01:46 oh, of course 17:02:22 the key is avoiding talking directly about the param until the last moment. Xargs passes it through onto the end of the list without any of that troublesome parsing 17:02:51 it's funnny the awkward recipies I end up using on a daily basis because they seem safe 17:02:58 (safe like the defaults should have been, damn it!) 17:03:21 it's dangerously close to cargo cult programming 17:06:20 -!- Slereah- has joined. 17:06:30 AnMaster: also, let me know if you plan to give two files the same filename in different directories, my current code will break if you do that <-- hm possible that will happen, indeed 17:06:41 AnMaster: what would you use it for? 17:06:45 ais523: that method shouldn't be underestimated though, just because it makes it easy to review the craziness before it runs 17:06:51 ais523: that can prevent a lot of grief 17:06:51 ais523, when I replace the funge space with a faster version I'm likely to offer both as alternatives at compile time for a while 17:06:52 :) 17:06:54 like I did last time 17:07:11 AnMaster: ah, but it wouldn't be right to compile both in at once? 17:07:17 ais523, indeed not both at once 17:07:20 at the moment I just compile and link together all the .c files in /lib and /src 17:07:22 both at once would be an error 17:07:29 so it's right for it to break when that happens 17:07:35 right 17:07:39 and I'll need to not compile one or the other depending on circumstances 17:07:44 that's fine, just let me know when it happens 17:07:48 sure 17:08:01 ais523, do you use lib/*/*.c or lib/blah/*.c atm? 17:08:11 because in the next commit two subdirs to lib will be added 17:08:24 AnMaster: recursive find atm 17:08:37 so effectively lib/*/*.c 17:08:41 but with any number of */ 17:09:16 lib/**/*.c in zsh 17:09:19 ais523, also in that commit cfunge will contain MIT code as well as current GPL3, LGPL and BSD (see COPYING, it contains several licenses, due to the libraries) 17:09:27 Deewiant, hah 17:09:37 hah? 17:09:45 "yet another zsh user" 17:09:46 AnMaster: that isn't an issue really 17:09:51 but zsh is quite bloated IMO 17:09:57 yes some nice features 17:10:02 I don't care all that much about the licences of things I link to as long as they're compatible 17:10:02 that I would like to see in bash 17:10:05 I suppose you use sh then 17:10:07 :-P 17:10:07 but some are just bloat IMO 17:10:15 Deewiant, I think average is best 17:10:15 and anything GPLv3-compliant can legally link to LGPL, BSD and MIT 17:10:20 so there aren't any legal problems there 17:10:30 ais523, yes I checked that before 17:10:48 however GPLv3 is more restrictive than GPLv2 so I have to take care that I don't relicence something under GPLv3 under GPLv2 without permission 17:11:03 oh and also some gpl2+, I reused some code from the MMORPG crossfire (on which I'm a developer), for string buffers (don't worry it is on the heap) 17:11:24 because stringbuffer_append(sb, "foo"); is so much easier than doing realloc yourself 17:11:57 AnMaster: don't worry about things on stack vs. heap, etc., because the way I've set it up I'm just about immune to anything but stack-smashing and your interpreter recursively calling mine, neither of which are likely 17:12:07 hah 17:12:42 ais523, well I can think of two things that would cause major messup (but that I don't plan to do): 1) pthreads 2) fork() which returns 17:12:53 but don't worry, I don't plan to do either 17:13:11 AnMaster: AFAICT the second would simply fork the running INTERCAL interp with no problems except confusion for the user 17:13:19 haha 17:13:21 you're right in that the first could cause interesting results, though 17:13:40 that sounds like an understatment 17:14:10 AnMaster: yes, but compared to the number of interesting interactions that there are in INTERCAL at the moment, most likely it would fit right in 17:14:45 ais523, is IFFI valgrind clean btw? 17:15:02 AnMaster: the fingerprint side has to be, it does nothing but toggle static variables 17:15:12 in fact I don't think either side mallocs 17:15:20 except for allocating an IP on startup 17:15:24 right 17:15:27 which is used throughout the entire progra 17:15:29 s/$/m/ 17:15:34 thus I don't see how it could fail 17:16:19 ais523, well cfunge doesn't free everything at end unless it is built as DEBUG. But I mainly meant no "real" memory leaks and no invalid read/writes and such 17:16:35 AnMaster: why do you ask? interest? 17:16:57 AFAIK the programs that C-INTERCAL outputs, and its runtime libraries, are valgrind clean, and the compiler itself leaks like a sieve 17:17:03 ais523, yes because of interest and because I like good code 17:17:14 hah 17:17:52 now I wonder if TURT will work, time to test with new code 17:19:10 ah yay segfault 17:23:27 :-D 17:24:07 tusho, there? 17:24:11 tusho, this is the result: 17:24:11 yes 17:24:16 <![CDATA[path{fill:none;stroke-width:0.00005px;stroke-linecap:round;stroke-linejoin:miter}]]> 17:24:25 tusho, as you suggested genx, how do I fix that? 17:24:40 AnMaster: Well, you're doing something wrong. Dunno what. 17:24:58 tusho, I just use genxAddText() 17:25:03 tell me what I should use instead 17:25:09 AnMaster: Read the docs. 17:25:13 tusho, I have... 17:25:24 I told you, I haven't used genx for anything big. But I've heard of people using it to much success and I know it works well. 17:27:05 tusho, also how do I get it to write this type of tags instead of 17:27:22 You don't, AnMaster. That's not part of the Canonical XML that genx writes. 17:27:34 It aims for the maximum compatibility and correctness. 17:28:40 tusho, in fact it seems impossible to do CDATA 17:28:53 do you even need it in this case? 17:28:55 it's for convenience of writing 17:28:55 you don't need it 17:29:00 you can just add the text without the cdata wrapper 17:29:04 and genx will handle it for you 17:30:21 tusho, it also fails to generate paths btw 17:30:29 that works 17:30:33 then i guess that's your fault :p 17:32:13 according to Deewiant svg should have a max line length of 256 chars, however genx writes it all on one line... 17:35:08 of course you need to add the newlines yourself 17:35:16 generic XML has no such limitation suggestions 17:36:19 yeah nothing will enforce that. 17:36:20 :P 17:36:25 that's just a reccomendation 17:36:27 ignore it, it's silly 17:37:05 interesting, konq can no longer view the image 17:38:34 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:39:17 well it seems the order of width and viewBox elements matters, both for konq and inscape 17:39:19 inkscape* 17:39:29 genx refuses to put width first 17:39:31 which is needed 17:39:36 * AnMaster shrugs 17:39:44 I put width last 17:39:51 worked fine for me 17:40:07 AnMaster: nothiing can enforce that 17:40:09 xml specifically says: 17:40:11 no ordering 17:40:44 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:44:04 -!- cherez has quit (Connection timed out). 17:45:49 -!- cherez has joined. 17:48:37 oh I see what the issue is 17:48:40 genx again 17:48:57 tusho, it added svg: to every single element, if that is done, it doesn't work for some reason 17:49:08 you didn't set the namespace, then 17:49:10 or whatever 17:49:15 genx is not the problem 17:49:16 your use of it is 17:49:19 I did 17:49:20 most likely 17:49:23 I did set the namespace 17:49:25 that was the issue 17:49:35 if I don't, and just add xmlns by hand it works 17:57:06 ais523, pushed the fixed code so that patch no longer is needed 17:57:17 AnMaster: ok 17:58:06 tusho, two things: the file is now way larger than before, it generates svg file that doesn't work in konq 17:58:21 AnMaster: I am not your personal genx support team. 17:58:25 Please stop bothering me about it. 18:13:08 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:15:26 -!- cherez has joined. 18:19:48 Deewiant, it seems I misunderstood width/height values before, they are "how wide should it show up as" 18:19:54 that is why the odd *10000 worked 18:19:54 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Connection reset by peer). 18:19:56 and so 18:20:00 best is to just not set it 18:20:07 it then defaults to 100% of viewport 18:20:12 -!- Slereah- has joined. 18:22:57 hmm, I thought I read somewhere in the standard that it's good form to set them 18:23:03 but I can't find it any more so I guess not 18:23:17 well I'm not 100% either 18:23:48 all I can find now is 18:23:49 SVG content itself optionally can provide information about the appropriate viewport region for the content via the width and height XML attributes on the outermost 'svg' element. 18:23:52 "absolute units identifiers are only recommended for the width and the height on outermost 'svg' elements and situations where the content contains no transformations and it is desirable to specify values relative to the device pixel grid or to a particular real world unit size. 18:23:53 " 18:24:00 so it's just optional 18:24:26 rather the correct way would be to do something like 800xwhatever the other unit scales to 18:24:27 or such then 18:30:25 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:30:30 for the element it just defines how large you want the entire image to be displayed as 18:41:34 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:45:18 -!- ais523 has quit ("brb, hopefully"). 18:56:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:03:29 hm 19:03:58 ais523, just decided cfunge got large enough to need a credits/thanks to file, should I use your real name or? 19:04:05 (same question for Deewiant btw) 19:04:34 real name is fine 19:04:46 ok 19:04:49 AnMaster: ais523 I think 19:04:49 well 19:04:49 what does c-intercal's copyright file say? 19:04:49 use that 19:04:57 AnMaster: link a url too 19:05:00 it has a COPYING file 19:05:05 as in just a list of licenses 19:05:08 make sure to use Deewiant's permalink, too 19:05:30 also ick doesn't have a COPYRIGHT one 19:05:41 all it got is a "Discredits" section in README 19:06:51 also I don't know url to use for ais523 19:07:03 AnMaster: call me Alex Smith, no url 19:07:04 I don't have one 19:07:09 ok 19:07:13 ais523: yes you do 19:07:18 http://eso-std.org/~ais523/ 19:07:54 tusho: look at what's there 19:07:58 it's hardly a homepage right now 19:08:06 ais523: it only takes a `vi index.html` 19:08:07 and it would be an inappropriate URL for AnMaster's purposes 19:08:20 really? for thanking you? Don't see why. 19:08:40 for thanking ais523 for finding bugs and for writing IFFI 19:08:59 yes 19:09:16 tusho: you're suggesting he links to a directory listing that contains nothing but some Agora stuff? 19:09:25 ais523: at the very second that's all it has 19:09:32 but it will likely have a homepage at one point 19:09:40 and it's a canonical unchanging URL now, so what's the problem? 19:09:49 it's also an identifying URI 19:09:54 to distinguish you from any other Alex Smith 19:09:54 tusho: eventualism in changelogs is rarely a good idea... 19:10:05 ais523: not a changelog 19:10:08 it's a THANKS file 19:10:23 tusho: well, exactly 19:10:36 "THANKS to some random agoran ramblings for finding out bugs and writing a fingerprint..."? 19:11:09 ais523: Thanks to Alex Smith for being an awesome person 19:11:09 tusho, could I also have a url at eso-std.org then? XD 19:11:37 AnMaster: 3 goats. Then I'll consider it. 19:11:43 tusho, 3 goats? 19:11:52 tusho, for what purpose? 19:11:53 Sacrificed. 19:11:57 Religious. 19:12:05 tusho, animal rights! 19:12:17 Shut up, my religion says I can do it QED. 19:12:33 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:12:42 tusho: presumably you'd go mad if I created an account for AnMaster, too? 19:12:48 not that I would without your permission 19:12:52 ais523: In the insanity sense? 19:12:52 Yes. 19:12:57 tusho: in the anger sense? 19:13:01 at least, would you try to stop me? 19:13:12 insanity isn't really that hard to come by in #esoteric 19:13:18 also, can I? 19:13:23 I'd be too busy dancing around like a chicken and barking out the Zimbabwean anthem to be angry. 19:13:31 And no. Not unless he joins ESO (oh god) :p 19:13:51 what is ESO? 19:14:03 AnMaster: an Esoteric Standards Organisation 19:14:04 uh.. yeah. 19:14:07 which is just me and tusho at the moment 19:14:08 ais523, nice 19:14:13 ais523: in the pop standards sense, actually 19:14:15 I got some work which would fit in that 19:14:19 we aren't getting any standardisation done because tusho's too busy doing other things 19:14:21 the standards part is a subdivision 19:14:21 the funge108 standard 19:14:24 that I'm working on 19:14:25 like repeatedly moving everything around the website 19:14:31 ais523, tusho ^ 19:14:36 and wanting to reinvent everything from scratch 19:14:40 AnMaster: yes, well, we'll see when it's done 19:14:45 ais523: do you object? :) 19:14:45 AnMaster: Funge-108 is exactly the sort of thing it ought to be for 19:14:50 tusho: to what? 19:14:56 ais523: reinventing everything! 19:15:02 tusho: not particularly 19:15:08 but it would be nice to get some standardisation done at some point 19:16:04 ais523, http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge-108/ 19:16:15 a bit old have been too busy until now 19:16:26 AnMaster: btw, one thing that came to mind: if UTF isn't mandated in Funge-108, mandate it 19:16:28 AnMaster: maybe we should just work on the standard ourselves (mostly you), and then put it up on ESO when tusho's ready 19:16:31 and tomorrow I will be busy packing to go to Norway for some days 19:16:45 Deewiant, oh you mean load it as utf8 file? 19:16:48 no I disagree 19:16:55 it should be every char is 8 bits 19:17:01 AnMaster: that's dated as of my birthday, thanks for the present 19:17:03 unportable 19:17:06 ais523: that sounds reasonable, I don't really care about funge-108 19:17:17 Deewiant, well ok "as native byte size" 19:17:19 imagine "det här er iso-8859-1" 19:17:23 and then i 19:17:57 Deewiant, issue: It would be exceedingly hard to write a funge-108 interpreter in funge then 19:18:05 or in brainfuck 19:18:11 no, not really 19:18:15 Deewiant, do you want to try to parse utf8 by hand? 19:18:17 it would be easier in fact 19:18:27 since you can assume that it's utf-8 19:18:36 on windows, you can then convert to utf-16 19:18:40 i vote FOR Deewiant's proposal 19:18:41 :) 19:18:46 everywhere else, just pass it directly to functions 19:18:51 Deewiant, it is easier to just read it in to char * 19:18:58 (since anybody with a locale other than utf-8 is wrong anyway ;-)) 19:19:05 AnMaster: no, it's not. it's not portable. 19:19:09 or rather 19:19:14 you will still be reading it in to char* 19:19:18 Deewiant, it is not easy in C without using an external library 19:19:24 the difference is that if you need to convert it to a certain encoding, you can do so. 19:19:30 AnMaster: you do not need to 19:19:52 Deewiant, like what if you fread() in chunks of 1024 and a char end up over a boundary, you need to parse utf8 and load every utf8 char into one cell 19:19:57 even if it is multibyte 19:20:03 after converting it to unicode too I assume? 19:20:05 ugh IMO 19:20:17 no, I didn't say that 19:20:17 because utf8 chars can be up to 5 bytes iirc 19:20:20 4 19:20:28 quite sure it can be 5 19:20:31 no, 4. 19:20:46 I've implemented UTF-8 decoders and encoders; don't bother questioning me on this. :-) 19:21:05 up to 6 is theoretically allowed but if the UTF-8 is used to encode Unicode, it's 4. 19:21:26 um 19:21:31 AnMaster: but yeah, you have two options there 19:21:37 there are only 17*65536 characters in Unicode 19:21:41 how would you load it then 19:21:44 so it can't end up more than 4 bytes long 19:21:44 1) like you said, every utf-8 char in one cell 19:22:03 2) you don't have to change your program at all: multibyte chars are multiple cells. 19:22:20 personally I'd favour combining chars loading into the same cells as the char they're combining onto if you're going down that route 19:22:20 the only difference in case 2 from now being that a string can be assumed to be valid UTF-8. 19:22:23 oh, and y should tell the program which is the case? 19:22:29 Deewiant: even if read backwards? 19:22:48 Deewiant, because then a program written for variant 1 and variant 2 won't work vertically in same interpreter 19:22:54 as columns won't match 19:23:01 ais523: if you pass it to any instruction which uses a string, yes. 19:23:15 AnMaster: I meant, pick one for the standard. 19:23:22 right 19:23:25 there are no string-based instructions in Funge-98, only in some of the fingerprints 19:23:30 ais523: i and o 19:23:38 and = 19:23:41 Deewiant: I thought they read onto the playfield 19:23:43 oh "ö"< 19:23:45 but I forgot about = 19:23:54 ais523: they take filenames 19:23:59 from 0gnirts 19:24:03 Deewiant: ah 19:24:20 idea: replace 0gnirts with gnirts 19:24:32 -!- Corun has joined. 19:24:34 yes, but that's another issue. 19:24:35 would break existing programs though 19:25:20 Deewiant, fingerprint loading will be extended to accept urls, retaining the old fingerprint system for compatibility with old fingerprints 19:25:25 but new ones should use URIs 19:25:28 not URLs 19:25:31 I meant URIs 19:25:39 tusho managed to brainwash you then :-) 19:25:59 Brainwash? 19:26:00 ) 19:26:02 *:) 19:26:09 anyway, AnMaster 19:26:13 all URLs are URIs 19:26:13 Deewiant, no? I talked to Pressy about it too and he agreed assuming existing fingerprints still would work 19:26:15 but still, I think it's somewhat annoying that I have to use legacy APIs just because I don't know the encoding of a given file 19:26:15 so just say URIs 19:26:16 and it's fine 19:26:22 ah, wait, I see 19:26:22 okay 19:26:23 tusho, yes it was a typo on irc 19:26:24 so UTF-8 would be nice 19:26:29 or UTF-whatever 19:26:31 AnMaster: anyway 19:26:33 16 and 32 are fine too 19:26:34 forget about old extensions 19:26:36 :) 19:26:48 just have a funge-98 mode, AnMaster 19:26:55 and let funge-108 be nice and URIy without kludges 19:26:58 tusho, I already have different modes 19:27:10 to handle space issue in strings in befunge93 programs 19:27:18 and handle experimental stuff in funge108 19:27:21 as I try them out 19:27:29 like extending y instruction to have more info 19:27:39 also the support for trinary funges would be nice 19:27:41 XD 19:27:55 but I may drop that 19:28:42 AnMaster: see, exactly, different modes 19:28:53 so funge-108 doesn't need to keep back-compat 19:28:55 also future compatibility for quantum funges I guess 19:29:08 heh 19:29:38 tusho, in the link I gave above to the draft read section 5.5 19:29:41 to see some wild ideas 19:29:44 for that 19:30:10 tusho, oh and Chris Pressy which I talked to in email did suggest retaining some backward compatiblity 19:30:19 mph 19:30:25 miles per hour 19:30:28 ? 19:30:31 AnMaster: no, 'mmph' 19:30:33 like 'meh' 19:30:35 but mmmph 19:30:52 many multiple miles per hour? ~~~ 19:31:10 ;p 19:32:53 AnMaster: about cfunge's page - 19:32:57 the page is in english but you have Mars 19:33:00 it should be March.. 19:33:03 oops 19:33:05 unless it's not in english 19:33:11 in which case, my eyes are deceiving me! 19:33:33 fixed 19:33:35 tusho: there are several English problems in the Funge-108 standard too, mostly nonidiomatic things and using slightly the wrong word, but I should be able to fix them once I've had time to look at it properly 19:33:51 ais523, that would be helpful 19:34:21 ais523, please work with the lyx file when doing so to make it easier to co-operate 19:35:11 AnMaster: one English mistake you make a lot: "The Funge-98 (Pressey, 1998) standard got several unclear corner cases and is also missing definitions for non-binary funges (like ternary ones)." 19:35:14 "got" should be "has" there 19:35:23 ah 19:35:43 ais523: that's always bothered me when talking to anmaster 19:35:49 but I just noticed now exactly what it is that bothered me 19:35:49 :P 19:36:42 ais523, according to search that was the only case of "got" in the file 19:36:55 AnMaster: good 19:37:00 you do that a lot in speech, I meant 19:37:10 I wasn't sure how much it had ended up in the standard 19:37:11 ah 19:37:34 ais523, a lot of it is just reformatted and clarified funge98 19:37:44 I noticed 19:37:57 because funge108 is a good language 19:38:19 AnMaster: Of course you'd think that. 19:38:34 tusho, heh 19:41:35 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:43:51 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 19:48:11 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:51:46 -!- tusho has quit ("And then-"). 19:52:25 -!- tusho has joined. 19:59:55 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 20:03:33 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 20:07:19 AnMaster: anyway, for Funge-108, something that's been bothering me a lot is what happens if a file with mixed newlines uses \r then \n to do a blank line 20:10:17 it won't do a blank line 20:10:27 simple as that :-P 20:10:31 Deewiant: yes, I know 20:10:39 personally I think the standard should state that 20:10:50 by saying that \r\n is a line break, I think it does 20:10:59 Deewiant: but it also says that \r and \n are line breaks 20:11:02 so that's ambiguous 20:11:05 well 20:11:08 ais523, not really 20:11:08 it should say which takes precedence 20:11:11 maximal munch 20:11:14 hm 20:11:22 alternately, disallow mixed newlines 20:11:34 same type throughout the file or it's invalid 20:11:38 Deewiant, mixed in one file? should be allowed 20:11:41 IMO 20:11:46 I assume ccbi can handle it? 20:12:04 of course 20:12:13 but why should it be allowed 20:12:30 Deewiant, is there any good reason to disable it? 20:12:47 ais523's ambiguity is one 20:13:02 another is the fact that vim doesn't like them 20:13:23 Deewiant: nor does Emacs 20:13:28 well most editors won't like it 20:13:34 however I feel it should be allowed 20:13:40 vim is the first editor I found that doesn't :-P 20:13:49 I thought it was the only one, TBH 20:13:51 Deewiant, does nano handle it? 20:13:59 I don't know, haven't used it 20:14:13 um nano transparently converts everything to LF iirc 20:15:13 so it probably works then 20:15:16 but still, why allow it 20:15:29 in the end it can be considered erroneous 20:16:00 hmm 20:16:48 "A Funge source file SHOULD not mix different styles of line ending. If a file does the result is implementation defined." 20:16:50 what about that? 20:16:56 it's almost certainly unintentional, unless someone is writing Mycology 20:16:59 AnMaster: just make it invalid 20:17:06 and must-reject 20:17:08 -!- ihope has joined. 20:17:17 tusho, an implementation should not need to detect this condition 20:17:18 IMO 20:18:21 implementation defined = This indicates the implementation can do whatever it wants (either from a list of alternatives or completely freely). However an interpreter MUST NOT error out or crash. 20:18:24 does that seem sane? 20:18:26 -!- timotiis has joined. 20:18:30 for a definition of it 20:18:32 AnMaster: yes 20:18:34 However, a Funge-108 interpreter MAY also expose any number of proprietary instructions above 20:18:34 ASCII 127 or below ASCII 0. 20:18:38 implementation defined, in general, also means that the implementation should document it 20:18:38 is that based on my middot 20:18:43 or did it say that beforehand? 20:18:47 ais523, no it was in funge98 too 20:18:51 ah, good 20:19:01 Deewiant, good point 20:19:04 so fffungi is legal in funge98 20:19:11 AnMaster: oh, and another thing I was musing 20:19:16 implementation defined = This indicates the implementation can do whatever it wants (either from a list of alternatives or completely freely). However an interpreter MUST NOT error out or crash. 20:19:17 NOT SANE 20:19:18 Deewiant, hm what? 20:19:18 default bindings for A-Z 20:19:27 An interpreter SHOULD be able to error out on undefined behaviour. 20:19:29 so that they don't just reflect by default 20:19:29 Saying otherwise is madness! 20:19:41 ais523, yes but not in pure funge98 of course, as in it is a proprietary extension 20:19:46 tusho: implementation defined and undefined are two quite separate things 20:19:48 AnMaster: normally "implementation defined" means "must be documented from this list of choices" 20:19:51 tusho, undefined yes 20:19:56 tusho, implementation defined no 20:20:13 ais523: a list? not usually in my experience 20:20:22 whereas "unspecified" means "must be from this list of choices but need not be documented nor chosen consistently" 20:20:38 ais523, and "undefined"? 20:20:40 Deewiant: maybe not a list, but a description of a set of choices is given 20:20:46 AnMaster: "can do anything at all when this happens" 20:20:51 ais523: sometimes, but not always 20:21:08 ais523, even crash? I would like to define it as "error out gracefully but not crash" 20:21:12 is valid 20:21:13 or at least, the set contains "or something else" 20:21:26 Deewiant, in some cases it is a list of valid ways to do it, and in other it is just totally implementation defined 20:21:29 examples: 20:21:36 kk <--- implementation defined from a list 20:21:38 yes, I know 20:21:41 you don't need to list them 20:21:52 201-% <-- implementation defined, not from a list 20:21:52 I just said that usually, in my experience, one is not given a list 20:21:57 but yes, that can happen 20:22:12 Deewiant, both cases exist in funge108 20:22:27 uninteresting, that wasn't the point 20:24:13 AnMaster: anyhoo, I was thinking that handy stack instructions or something for A-Z would be nice 20:24:26 Deewiant, hm? 20:24:36 what do you mean? 20:24:40 when no fingerprints are loaded 20:24:42 default behaviour 20:24:45 ah true 20:24:50 isn't that documented to reflect? 20:25:08 Deewiant, oh you mean use it for other instructions? 20:25:09 personally I think that such handy stack instructions should be in a fingerprint 20:25:13 not by default 20:25:18 ais523, I tend to agree 20:25:44 I just think that it's a bit of a waste to have 27 instructions all of which reflect 20:26:30 a b -- a a b is one which would have eliminated a lot of uses of p and g in mycology 20:27:06 Deewiant, that one is simple: \: 20:27:08 err 20:27:10 :\: 20:27:10 even 20:27:11 nope 20:27:18 Deewiant, no? 20:27:26 that's a b -- a b b 20:27:31 note that \ after : is a no-op 20:27:36 actually that's a b -- a b b 20:27:38 er 20:27:38 crap 20:27:41 a b -- a b b b 20:27:44 since you dup twice 20:27:49 ah wait 20:27:52 \:\ 20:27:54 is what I mean 20:27:55 meant* 20:28:02 a b -- b a a 20:28:02 but that doesn't work either 20:28:04 couldn't you do that with the stack stack? 20:28:13 ais523, that would need even more code 20:28:27 it needs a secondary data store 20:28:35 Deewiant, you *could* have a fingerprint for it 20:28:38 whether it's the stack stack or a cell in funge-space or a variable or whatever 20:28:43 sure I could 20:28:49 I could have a fingerprint for a lot of things 20:28:54 but mycology couldn't depend on that of course 20:28:57 Deewiant: or what about doing it with the y instruction with a massively high argument? 20:29:01 with minifunge fingerprints are obsoleted anyway :-) 20:29:19 ais523, that would need g/p to store how massively 20:29:32 Deewiant, well I'm not sure cfunge will ever implement that 20:29:33 no it wouldn't actually 20:29:46 but anyhoo 20:29:51 + minifunge can't do anything that C/D/whatever fingerprints can do 20:29:55 I still think 26 extra instructions for 'r' is kinda pointless 20:30:08 Deewiant: the point is that they aren't for 'r' 20:30:15 AnMaster: it can do everything they can without requiring an interpreter update 20:30:16 rather they're undefined, so error until you give them a definition 20:30:26 sort of like CREATE-able instructions in INTERCAL 20:30:27 might as well define them to be useful by default 20:30:27 Deewiant, really? open sockets? read files? 20:30:34 DO T .1 is an error by default 20:30:43 but it's in iffit1.i and it gains a meaning by the time that line runs 20:31:05 AnMaster: not sure, if = is there then yes but nonportably 20:31:08 Deewiant, implement TRDS in pure minifunge and I may be interested 20:31:15 heh 20:31:21 just writing a simple test for TRDS took weeks 20:31:32 Deewiant, yes I know how mad it is 20:31:34 (including implementing it in D, though) 20:31:40 but still 20:31:46 the point is that you can ship fingerprints with your program 20:32:03 Deewiant, or the forth stack one? could that be done in minifunge? 20:32:04 besides, you could have a fingerprint called 0 20:32:10 AnMaster: yes, it could 20:32:12 so all you needed to do was ( at the start of the program to load it 20:32:17 ais523, not in cfunge without a major crash atm 20:32:25 many interpreters don't support 0 20:32:27 ... cfunge included 20:32:35 Deewiant, well I could support it with some change 20:32:41 not that hard 20:32:41 well, technically speaking there are no limitations on fingerprint names 20:32:44 of course, they all could 20:32:45 they're just numbers 20:32:48 but many don't, regardless 20:32:52 just need to store the last valid fingerprint in some other way 20:33:08 Deewiant, currently I know that I reached end of the fingerprint array by a 0 20:33:19 uninteresting 20:33:40 ais523, and yes indeed 20:34:03 however there are two things to note for funge 108 20:34:31 1) each fingerprint will be able to be loaded by URI, existing fingerprints by the "legacy fingerprint" too 20:34:51 2) how do do the "push one cell with data for unloading fingerprint" 20:34:58 anyone got a good idea for the latter? 20:35:11 how will you differentiate between an URI and a legacy fingerprint 20:35:15 if they're both done by ( 20:35:31 AnMaster: just say it's an implementation-defined value 20:35:37 like in REFC 20:35:41 where it's an array index 20:36:11 ah good idea 20:36:14 how will you differentiate between an URI and a legacy fingerprint 20:36:15 well 20:36:37 1) first try to load it as a uri (it will be gnirts like currently) 20:36:43 2) if none match, try to load it the old way 20:36:58 does that seem sane? 20:37:11 do URIs have some defined syntax? 20:37:17 Deewiant: yes 20:37:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Resource_Identifier 20:37:26 ah, apparently so 20:37:28 then that works 20:37:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/URI_scheme#Generic_syntax 20:37:33 rather 20:37:54 Deewiant, anyway the implementation can, I assume, know what fingerprints it got 20:38:01 but, still, that breaks old code 20:38:15 not a bother I guess since other stuff does too 20:38:15 Deewiant, well "TRUT"4( will still work with that scheme 20:38:35 while new fingerprints may be uri only 20:39:02 yes but something sneakier like "TRUT//:ptth"a1+( won't 20:39:25 um what, would it currently? 20:39:29 -!- RedDak has joined. 20:39:32 sure 20:39:35 not that, exactly, of course 20:39:39 but something equivalent 20:39:42 Deewiant, also does any code do that? 20:39:43 since the rules are given 20:39:48 maybe, I don't know 20:39:57 it could be written 20:40:19 I think the majority of the code does it the normal way at least 20:40:38 certainly 20:40:47 but I was only saying that that's not fully backwards-compatible 20:40:57 Deewiant, and funge-98 broke quite some funge-93 code 20:41:02 a lot of code with spaces in strings 20:41:15 which wasn't that ucommon at all 20:41:28 yes, I am aware of this 20:41:29 also that space thing broke for no good reason IMO 20:41:37 while I got a good reason for URIs 20:41:41 name clashes 20:41:47 you can still get name clashes 20:41:51 it's just less likely 20:42:12 Deewiant, yes much less likely, as you should use some domain you own 20:42:18 given the number of potential funge-108 users it's even less likely ;-P 20:42:32 yes, you should, but you might not. 20:42:37 Deewiant, well will you port mycology to it? if it becomes a standard 20:42:48 Deewiant, well I'm sure eso-std.org will be happy to help then 20:42:50 nope 20:42:51 right tusho? 20:42:55 Deewiant, no? 20:42:59 nope 20:42:59 depends if it's any good 20:43:31 Deewiant, and there is always stuff like free webhosting pages with lots of ads if you are really desperate 20:43:47 ccbi and mycology were fun, and I can keep them up to date and free of bugs, but I won't completely rehaul them unless I get /really/ bored 20:46:14 also we should try to reach the wider befunge community outside this channel, where else is there 20:46:17 any mailing lists? 20:46:37 AnMaster: there's alt.lang.intercal, it's used for all esolangs but is pretty dead at the moment 20:46:44 it still has several avid readers, just nobody writes anything there 20:46:55 ais523, I don't have anywhere I can *post* on usenet afaik 20:46:59 I posted CCBI only to the esolang wiki 20:47:02 well maybe google groups? I don't know 20:47:05 I figured it's the only place with any readers 20:47:28 ais523, don't you make release announcements there? 20:51:30 Google groups is usenet, AnMaster. 20:51:56 tusho, yeah I should learn how to use that 20:52:25 google groups also has its own groups which aren't usenet 20:52:38 hm 20:52:43 Deewiant: yes 20:52:45 Deewiant, they use different namespaces? 20:52:53 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:54:37 beats me 20:54:50 I don't use google groups other than for searching 20:54:57 same so far 20:55:42 Deewiant, one undef that I plan to change: fingerprints loaded by child ips 20:55:45 what do you suggest 20:55:49 that they are loaded or not? 20:55:57 I'd go for "loaded by child ips too" 20:56:04 whatever 20:56:25 Deewiant, hm? yes I know ccbi does it the other way, but I feel keeping them loaded makes more sense 20:56:28 but maybe that is just me 20:56:47 yes it probably does 20:56:48 they do use diferent namespaces 20:56:51 *different 20:57:05 what does tusho and ais523 think about this issue? 20:57:12 -!- pikhq has left (?). 20:58:01 Deewiant, after all they are clones 20:58:27 AnMaster: which issue? I'm not too good with concurrent execution 20:58:42 -!- Slereah- has joined. 20:58:59 ais523, should the list of loaded fingerprints be duplicated to the child ip, or should new threads start out with no fingerprints loaded? 20:59:17 duplicated IMO 20:59:27 because you have two threads the same as one old thread 20:59:46 right, what I think too (but not what ccbi does) 20:59:50 it was undefined in 98 21:02:07 Deewiant, should URI matching be case insensitive or case sensitive? 21:02:17 I don't know anything about URIs 21:02:20 probably the latter 21:02:26 ais523, tusho ^ 21:02:31 insensitive in the domain name, definitely 21:02:36 the rest can be case-sensitive, though 21:02:42 probably you should make it so it isn't 21:02:42 ais523 is right 21:02:45 dns is case insensitive 21:02:46 URIs aren't 21:03:27 so. "case insensitive in domain name part but implementation defined for the rest" (said clearer obviously) 21:03:30 or? 21:03:44 makes sense 21:03:50 recommend that programs get the case right anyway 21:03:56 yep 21:04:16 not implementation defined AnMaster! 21:04:18 then it's not a URI 21:04:21 URIs are CASE SENSITIVE 21:04:30 tusho, except for the domain name part? 21:04:38 AnMaster: stop 21:04:40 read http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986 21:04:41 start again 21:05:42 "An implementation should accept uppercase letters as equivalent to lowercase in scheme names (e.g., allow "HTTP" as well as "http") for the sake of robustness but should only produce lowercase scheme names for consistency." 21:05:43 hm 21:05:49 * AnMaster searches onwards 21:06:23 tusho, best is to just refer to that RFC in other words 21:06:37 yes 21:06:38 tusho, what is the *authoritative* url to that rfc? 21:06:45 AnMaster: 'RFC 3986' 21:06:49 is it the html version you linked? 21:07:00 AnMaster: http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt 21:07:02 AnMaster: that one's on the IETF website so it's likely pretty authoritative 21:07:04 ah 21:07:17 ais523, yes but probably the text version is, not the html one 21:07:30 * AnMaster opens kbibtex 21:09:47 AnMaster: in my opinion # at the edge should always jump over a space 21:09:55 and so execute the first command at the other side, not the second 21:10:06 the playfield should act as though it's surrounded by infinite spaces 21:10:26 otherwise the playfield size is actually relevant to the way programs behave, and it shouldn't be IMO 21:10:53 ais523, well I think Deewiant will disagree with that 21:10:59 likewise for j off the edge of the map (does mycology test that, by the way?) 21:11:17 (no) 21:11:33 AnMaster: and why would I disagree 21:11:43 that's the smartest way of fixing it IMO 21:11:58 hm 21:12:02 but currently it's ambiguous with 3 or 4 different interpretations 21:12:02 Deewiant, what does ccbi do for it 21:12:16 void trampoline() { ip.move(); } 21:12:19 nothing else 21:12:25 what happens, happens 21:13:40 hm 21:15:34 Berners-Lee, T., Fielding, R., and Masinter, L. (2005). Uniform Resource Identifier (URI): Generic 21:15:34 Syntax. 21:15:34 URL http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt 21:15:41 I love BibTex 21:15:43 :D 21:22:47 AnMaster: as for k, it would likely be good to describe what 1k^ does; does the pointer start moving upwards from the ^ or from the cell after? 21:23:01 ais523, that is in my local copy already 21:23:09 ok 21:23:10 I wrote it just about half an hour ago 21:23:23 and yes k is tricky 21:23:29 what does it do? move from the current location if the IP or delta changed, from the next location otherwise? 21:23:43 // The weird stuff below, is, as described by CCBI: 21:23:43 // Instruction executes *at* k 21:23:43 // If the instruction k executes, changes delta or position, we are finished. 21:23:43 // If it doesn't we should jump to *after* the instruction k executed. 21:23:58 what if it changes position and then changes it back again? 21:23:59 I just rewrote that for the standard to be more generic 21:24:05 ais523, like what? 21:24:08 or delta 21:24:10 say, like 4k[ 21:24:28 Deewiant, help! ;P 21:25:06 ais523, I think that should be treated as "If it doesn't we should jump to *after* the instruction k executed." 21:25:24 yes 21:25:30 but does it count as changing delta or position there? 21:25:37 ais523, I'd say: no 21:25:40 it did, it just changed it bacj 21:25:44 AnMaster: wut 21:25:44 s/bacj/back/ 21:25:49 Deewiant: what does 4k[ do? 21:25:57 varies 21:25:58 :-P 21:25:59 it changes the delta, but then changes it back to its original value 21:26:05 Deewiant: what should 4k[ do? 21:26:08 Deewiant, what *should* 4k[ do then? 21:26:25 I honestly don't know 21:26:31 the problem is stuff like 0k^ 21:26:35 which you'd like to do nothing 21:26:46 and yet have 4k[ also do nothing 21:26:53 personally, I think 1k^z should be equivalent to zzz^ 21:26:56 you can't really have both at once 21:26:58 it's a lot more orthogonal that way 21:27:12 1k^z or 1kz^ 21:27:16 ais523, err, k only takes one tick 21:27:17 ever 21:27:21 AnMaster: not wrt ticks 21:27:24 yes 21:27:28 wrt where the IP ends up 21:27:33 ah 21:27:36 um 21:28:36 ais523: 1k^z or 1kz^ 21:28:47 1k^z 21:28:52 i.e. do ^ once, then do nothing 21:29:11 Deewiant, wrt fingerprint loading and implementation defined index: should that index also be usable to load the fingerprint with? 21:29:14 and if it does ^... it doesn't hit the z 21:29:18 because, say, 1k4z pushes only one 4 21:29:23 AnMaster: up to you 21:29:24 I mean, it should do the ^ at the z 21:29:29 i.e. after the command finishes executing 21:29:34 ah, that's interesting 21:29:42 haven't thought of that 21:29:45 hmm 21:30:15 so it changes the delta, but still executes the z afterwards? 21:30:16 um? 21:30:26 well that doesn't seem sane 21:30:28 so more like zz^z 21:30:35 because I can't see zzz^ making sense 21:30:51 Deewiant: basically, consider what 1k4z does, it pushes 4 once, right? 21:31:01 aye 21:31:01 that's because after the 1k4, the next command to execute is the z 21:31:15 so after doing 1k^z, the next command to execute should likewise be the z 21:31:27 yes, I see all this 21:31:31 ais523, doesn't make sense really as it changed direction 21:31:32 but why zzz^ and not zz^z 21:32:09 AnMaster: well, what would 1k>z do? Would it run the > twice? 21:32:25 I think I see what you're getting at now 21:32:33 ais523: 2k#12345 21:32:35 ais523, um that doesn't change so that would execute z the next tick 21:32:39 also there is the issue of: 2k; blah blah;4 21:32:41 what's the next instruction after the k 21:32:44 what do you do then? 21:32:57 Deewiant, that is a good question! 21:33:00 AnMaster: I treat that identically to 2k4, the bit in-between is invisible 21:33:15 ais523, right like spaces then 21:33:22 well, 1k#12345 should be identical to zz#12345 21:33:34 so 2k#12345 should be identical to zzz#2345 21:33:39 because in funge-108 Chris Pressy said that spaces should be skipped, I can paste the emails somewhere if you want 21:33:57 so your rule of thumb is, 1kX is always zzX and 0kX is zzz (forgetting about ticks)? 21:33:58 AnMaster: I'm not surprised, IMO that was the intention all along, it's just # that acts oddly 21:34:03 Deewiant: yes 21:34:21 then 1k^z is zz^z which makes sense 21:34:28 yes, exactly 21:34:31 ais523, he also said: 21:34:31 and not zzz^ like you said :-) 21:34:32 My feeling is that #2 is the right answer: reach past the space and 21:34:33 execute the c instruction 4 times. That is, when the spec says "next" 21:34:33 it means "next instruction that would be executed if the k wasn't even 21:34:33 there". 21:34:33 However... if you take this as a principle, it suggests that the # 21:34:36 instruction should skip the next instruction that would be executed, 21:34:38 in the same way, no matter how many spaces there are between the # and 21:34:40 the next instruction. I don't think anybody expects # to work that 21:34:42 way! 21:34:46 (#2 was execute next instruction after the spaces) 21:34:53 AnMaster: so he's thought about it the same way I have. :-) 21:35:04 AnMaster: # to me seems to be 'wrong' in a sense 21:35:07 Deewiant, yes but you all got be so confused now 21:35:08 in that it's un-Fungey 21:35:10 have you forwarded him my thoughts (which I forwarded to you) 21:35:16 ais523, k over a lot of stuff is not well defined really 21:35:18 2k@ 21:35:19 it might save him some thinking :-P 21:35:21 for concurrent 21:35:22 or 21:35:25 2kt 21:35:27 because it cares about the dimensions of the playfield, not of the current situation 21:35:40 right 21:35:45 thinking about this INTERCAL style, k would 'supercharge' the next instruction to act multiple times 21:35:51 so it should always execute first instruction then? 21:36:04 AnMaster: examples? I'm not sure exactly what you mean 21:36:32 ais523, I mean, when # wraps it is always the first instruction after wrapping that will execute next 21:36:39 as in it won't skip first after wrapping 21:36:49 yes, that makes sense too 21:36:55 however 21:36:57 # f 21:37:01 will execute f 21:37:02 right? 21:37:18 actually, what would make the most sense would be for 2k#12345 to be identical to 2k;;2345 and for # to take no ticks 21:37:21 but that would be quite a change 21:37:27 and yes, # f should execute f 21:38:04 it's clear to me that space and semicolon change the shape of the playfield, rather than being commadns 21:38:11 maybe # should do the same thing? 21:38:20 yes space and ; are markers 21:38:25 should # be too? 21:38:29 not sure 21:38:34 what does Deewiant think? 21:38:45 sounds interesting to be sure 21:39:07 AnMaster: forward Chris my stuff since he seems to be thinking about it, I've done a lot of the thinking already 21:39:07 but k always take one tick ais523 21:39:23 AnMaster: yep 21:39:23 is that a problem? 21:39:24 Deewiant, you want me to paste this discussion to him? 21:39:30 AnMaster: no, I mean my e-mails 21:39:41 which I'm fairly sure I forwarded to you many months ago 21:39:47 on original discussion of k 21:39:49 Deewiant, you sent me emails? from what mail 21:40:01 I got several thousands mails around 21:40:02 probably from my iki.fi-address 21:40:07 Deewiant, which is 21:40:09 let's see... does it make sense for space # space to be equivalent to ; space ; 21:40:11 /msg if you want 21:40:13 just search for my name 21:40:20 (which is in /whois) 21:40:26 i.e. # is changing the shape of the playfield rather than moving the IP 21:40:57 * AnMaster waits for it to search 21:41:05 could take a while heh 21:41:18 ais523, um? 21:41:22 O_o 21:41:33 AnMaster: I have Google's over-a-decade worth of work on search powering my email search. 21:41:34 :) 21:41:41 "No matches found" for you last name in message body 21:41:43 Deewiant, ^ 21:41:51 in body? how about in sender? 21:41:54 well, in my view spaces are actually not commands, but instead cause the cells on either side to become adjacent 21:42:07 likewise semicolons cause the commands either side to become adjacent over a longer distance 21:42:08 the "From:" header, that is 21:42:12 nor in from 21:42:22 might it make sense for # to screw around with adjacencies too, rather than being a command? 21:42:23 meh, guess I just put em in a pastebin then 21:42:24 sec 21:42:38 em? you gone nomic too!? 21:42:44 oh wait 21:42:47 misread that 21:42:58 ais523, err 21:43:00 ais523, example 21:43:05 AnMaster: I object to that insult. 21:43:13 Ha! So much for #ESOTERICAN CONSENT 21:43:17 tusho, what insult? 21:43:25 AnMaster: gimme an address 21:43:32 Deewiant, for email? sure 21:43:41 Deewiant, see /msg 21:43:46 cheers 21:44:22 Deewiant, one new mail "Get a bigger one with v1agra" 21:44:25 not that I guess? 21:44:26 ;P 21:44:46 will check later 21:45:49 sent it now 21:47:24 k 21:47:42 didja get it? 21:48:15 yes 21:48:17 reading it atm 21:48:19 great 21:48:22 I'm off to bed 21:48:35 forward it to Chris if there's something new there 21:48:38 AnMaster: example: 2k#12 is equivalent to 2k;;2 or to zzz22 (not counting ticks) 21:48:50 and go ahead and send snippets of this discussion too 21:48:54 but I'm gone now -> 21:49:22 bye 21:50:02 "The problem with that is with nested k, for instance (something I need to add to 21:50:02 Mycology as soon as I can figure out what should happen): " 21:50:04 you never did 21:50:07 hm 21:50:19 anyway, I've been thinking about other languages to add as FFIs to INTERCAL 21:50:23 I think I can do Brainfuck 21:50:24 and that is implementation defined 21:50:27 possibly also Unlambda 21:50:33 although COME FROM in Unlambda will be fun 21:50:39 ais523, brainfuck would be trivial 21:50:48 AnMaster: not quite, but reasonably easy 21:50:54 ais523, oh why? 21:50:59 because of loops? 21:51:06 AnMaster: because of computed COME FROM, etc 21:51:20 ais523, well how would that be done at all? 21:51:25 you'd practically need to invent a new temporary tape for doing the computations in 21:51:36 e.g. (++++++C) would be equivalent to M6C in Funge-98+IFFI 21:51:42 the parens are like markers 21:51:47 um 21:51:51 and the computed come from is done on a new temporary tape 21:51:56 very non-brainfucky 21:51:57 ais523: make . turn into 'execute FFI command' in the (tape) 21:52:02 AnMaster: yes, I know 21:52:05 that's the issue 21:52:11 but gotos are non-brainfucky as it is 21:52:16 at least, gotos with line labels 21:52:19 ais523, indeed 21:52:19 and so so are come froms 21:52:45 ais523, what about a CLC/C-INTERCAL FFI? 21:52:50 that could be pretty interesting 21:52:54 using libperl I guess 21:52:55 AnMaster: yes, also difficult 21:53:03 given the way CLC-INTERCAL works 21:53:06 ais523, oh? 21:53:12 practically it would have to be done by sending commands over a socket or something 21:53:21 ais523, why is that? 21:53:37 AnMaster: the way CLC-INTERCAL works is so complicated that even I have trouble describing it 21:53:46 probably only me and Claudio have much of an idea of how it works 21:53:49 him more than me 21:54:17 but basically, you couldn't just call functions in CLC-INTERCAL to get things to happen 21:54:25 because the control structures are so convoluted 21:54:28 and they act non-locally 21:54:29 I see 21:54:33 you can even change the syntax at runtime 21:54:42 ais523, pretty much like C-INTERCAL then? 21:54:44 also, programs aren't even compiled until after they start running 21:54:48 AnMaster: much more so than in C-INTERCAL 21:55:01 C-INTERCAL allows you to give meaning to syntax that didn't have a meaning beforehand, within limits 21:55:01 ais523, you mean they are compiled in CLC? 21:55:07 not just interpreted? 21:55:09 in CLC-INTERCAL you can even change the grammar at runtime 21:55:13 is it JITTING?! 21:55:15 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 21:55:18 AnMaster: worse than jitting 21:55:23 worse than jitting? 21:55:28 wtf is worse than that in perl 21:55:44 it actually runs the program until it errors, then goes back and compiles the bit of the program that didn't work under the current compiler 21:55:46 ais523: i think you should abandon C-INTERCAL, 'cause CLC totally has you beat 21:55:51 and the compiler can be changed from within the program 21:55:57 ais523, oh my 21:56:00 tusho: C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL have different goals completely 21:56:16 yes, CLC-INTERCAL has C-INTERCAL beat on sheer esotericness, and probably it will always be that way 21:56:33 but C-INTERCAL is faster, and compiles to something relatively sane 21:56:39 ais523, you need posix_fadvise(), that will beat CLC on "get tusho madiness" 21:56:46 * AnMaster runs 21:57:25 ais523, maybe even make C-INTERCAL a sleek and beautiful beast (could that be done?) 21:57:34 AnMaster: well, it is compared to CLC-INTERCAL 21:57:41 possibly it was always meant to be 21:57:42 oh my 21:57:51 the compiler's a mess, but the result is not too bad 21:57:59 especially when neither -e nor -m is used 21:58:05 that way it doesn't do any stupid stack tricks 21:58:06 ais523, making the compiler nicer would be cool 21:58:08 it just becomes a C program 21:58:16 I may make some patches to fix valgrind issues if I have time 21:58:21 AnMaster: well, the problem is trying to track all the allocations and deallocations 21:58:27 it gets confusing very quickly 21:58:50 ais523, at least some should be pretty clear like "this is never visible outside this function, so add a free() at the end"? 21:59:17 AnMaster: yes, but those aren't responsible for memory leaks 21:59:27 the issue is that the entire program is compiled into a massive binary tree in memory 21:59:30 ais523, of course is way harder to fix existing code than when you are writing it 21:59:39 and the issue is freeing bits of it in the right order 21:59:46 which is why I always debug each fingerprint in valgrind before even committing it 21:59:52 and each new feature 22:00:29 AnMaster: yes, but those aren't responsible for memory leaks <-- yes they are to a certain extent 22:01:21 AnMaster: I mean, not in this code 22:01:30 those are all caught by splint 22:01:36 which I've run over the whole code 22:01:48 I even tried to annotate, but I gave up on some bits because the referencing was so weird 22:01:54 haha 22:02:03 well I'd used splint on parts 22:02:13 but it fails horribly on even simple C99 stuff like: 22:02:22 for (int i = 0; i < foo; i++) 22:02:27 that is putting int there 22:03:25 well, C-INTERCAL isn't C99, so I didn't have that problem 22:03:32 in fact, it originally wasn't even C89 22:03:33 but older 22:03:58 right 22:04:14 ais523, apart from mem leaks, are there any other valgrind errors? 22:05:34 AnMaster: no, I don't think so 22:06:06 -!- Corun has joined. 22:06:21 ais523, :) 22:06:39 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 22:06:42 -!- Judofyr has quit. 22:07:07 AnMaster: at least all the commonly-used codepaths are fine 22:07:12 ais523, heh 22:07:22 every now and then, though, someone comes up with some strange way of using ick that malfunctions 22:07:35 ais523, I pondered writing a test suite for cfunge using check but gave up on that idea 22:07:38 maybe I should just try every single possible combination of command-line args to see which ones work 22:07:58 ais523, I tried running ick on some CLC-INTERCAL code and it generated invalid C as output iirc 22:08:08 AnMaster: that's strange, it shouldn't do that 22:08:15 let me find the code 22:08:26 oh, btw, cfunge goes into an infinite loop if you enter input with no numeric characters when asked to input a number 22:08:39 ais523, yes it will "try again" then basically 22:08:46 until you enter a valid number 22:08:53 if that is what you mean, it is intentional 22:09:08 ah, I assumed it was just broken 22:09:16 maybe it should print "Redo from start" like in BASIC 22:09:24 ais523, http://intercal.freeshell.org/examples/hello.i <-- that, after fixing PLEASE ratio to conform to what ick wants 22:09:26 what if it gets an EOF in the input when inputting a number? 22:09:30 or a character, for that matter? 22:09:36 ais523, good question 22:09:38 let me try 22:09:59 ais523, Ctrl-D seems to be ignored 22:10:00 AnMaster: I tested on that program too... 22:10:06 AnMaster: redirect from /dev/null 22:10:14 can you reproduce the problem at your end? 22:10:26 ais523, with cfunge or ick? 22:10:29 brb 22:10:30 AnMaster: with ick 22:10:33 it was last release of ick 22:10:35 not darcs 22:10:48 AnMaster: what did you modify in it? 22:11:07 ais523, just the PLEASE ratio to remove some please on the line that said "PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE (PRETTY PLEASE)" 22:11:13 or ick didn't like it 22:11:17 AnMaster: ah, ok 22:11:26 because to C-INTERCAL, the whole of the rest of the program is one statement 22:11:36 no, sorry 22:11:40 each of the ERROR lines is one statement 22:11:43 let me try 22:11:58 ais523, wait not invalid c 22:12:00 linker error 22:12:12 remove the whole "please please please pretty please" line 22:12:17 $ bin/ick hello.i 22:12:17 /tmp/ccBpzVat.o: In function `ick_og6669c0': 22:12:17 hello.c:(.text+0x1ca): undefined reference to `ick_or0' 22:12:19 and so on 22:12:26 ais523, is that supposed to happen? 22:12:36 ais523, other programs work 22:12:37 no, it isn't 22:12:41 in pit of ick 22:12:49 it seems to have utterly confused the type-checker 22:12:53 that's what that error always means 22:13:01 that something wasn't given a data-type at all 22:13:03 ais523, well that's a bug then I guess? 22:13:07 yes, definitely 22:13:14 A BUG A BUG! 22:13:15 I'll have to look into what it is that failed to type-check 22:13:20 ON THE WAY TO ANYWHERE 22:13:31 CORRECT COMPILER AND RESUBNIT 22:13:33 * AnMaster runs 22:13:46 or better: 22:14:06 ON THE WAY TO CALIFORNIA 22:14:08 XD 22:14:09 ah, I think I get what's happening 22:14:15 let me see if I can create a minimal test case 22:14:18 to send off to me... 22:14:26 ais523, got that yet in your program? in the way to ? 22:14:35 AnMaster: there's ON THE WAY TO THE NEW WORLD 22:14:36 could be quite fun for something I guess 22:14:39 on something 22:14:45 ais523, which means? 22:14:46 also ON THE WAY TO THE CLOSET 22:14:48 neither is mine 22:14:53 k 22:14:59 and I can't remember what error message they correspond to 22:15:04 because that's the last line 22:15:13 not the bit at the start, which is normally related to the error somehow 22:15:18 true 22:15:22 the one's that aren't aren't that hard to memorise 22:15:23 um 22:15:25 last line is 22:15:27 CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT 22:15:28 right? 22:16:15 PLEASE DO .1/.?2 SYNTAX:ERROR 22:16:19 AnMaster: I think so 22:16:24 and that's my minimal test case 22:16:27 to reproduce the error 22:16:38 ais523, and that what is that supposed to do? 22:16:44 nothing, it's an error 22:16:52 the point is, it gets halfway through compiling the code 22:16:54 well not a linker error right? 22:17:00 AnMaster: yes, let me explain 22:17:05 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:17:11 the .1/.?2 is a symlink 22:17:22 um 22:17:23 what 22:17:30 symlink inside a language? 22:17:30 There's far too many cool things to do. 22:17:34 meaning that from now on, .1 should mean the value of .?2 22:17:39 pikhq, very true 22:17:40 AnMaster: yep, symlinked variables 22:17:45 pikhq, life is too short 22:17:49 you can have great fun with that 22:17:50 ais523, oh god 22:17:59 Do I want to work on Def-BF? 22:18:01 My kernel? 22:18:03 Learning D? 22:18:07 ais523, well in C you could do aliased pointers 22:18:07 now, this means I have to generate code to calculate the XOR of .2 if needed 22:18:10 Helping Gregor with Plof? 22:18:13 because something might be symlinked to it 22:18:21 however, then there's a syntax drror 22:18:23 pikhq, call fork(), problem solved 22:18:24 s/drror/error/ 22:18:28 so that wasn't a real command after all 22:18:39 so the typecaster is never run on it 22:18:49 ais523, right 22:19:06 ais523, and that means? 22:19:08 therefore, it generates code that is never used in the program, without typecasting it first 22:19:15 ais523, ouch 22:19:19 ais523, hard to fix? 22:19:21 so it tries to do a (undefined memory)-bit XOR rather than a 16-bit or 32-bit XOR 22:19:31 and you get a linker error 22:19:37 because that sort of XOR isn't in the runtime library 22:19:48 as for hard to fix, probably not 22:19:57 k 22:19:59 I can think of a reasonably easy way to fix it that generates a lot of dead code 22:20:07 I'm currently wondering if there's a better way 22:20:23 after all, that function is never actually called 22:20:28 so the linker error doesn't matter 22:20:31 just the linker doesn't know that 22:20:42 if C was like INTERCAL, then the error would be just fine as long as it was never encountered 22:20:59 ais523, what about "generate the unneeded code in case we get a linker error" XD 22:21:09 or use llvm 22:21:12 which does runtime linking 22:21:21 no, those are both insane methods 22:21:31 besides, the unneeded code is generated at present 22:21:33 ais523, yes very intercallish though XD 22:21:37 and the linker error is in that code 22:21:45 so there's an error because it can't find a function it'll never use 22:22:29 ais523, does intercal have floating or fixed point at all? 22:22:35 could you do sin() and such in it? 22:22:55 AnMaster: it doesn't have any sort of maths by default, but libraries are available both for integer arithmetic and for floating-point arithmetic 22:23:04 both work by bitwise manipulation 22:23:13 ais523, and for sin() and such high level stuff? 22:23:22 yep, that's in the floating-point library too 22:23:28 ais523, oh god 22:23:30 I was quite astounded that someone was actually bothered to write that 22:23:33 it isn't standard 22:23:40 but it's one of the examples bundled with the compiler 22:23:41 asin()? cos() acos() too? 22:23:50 let me find the list of what's supported 22:24:16 ais523, cfunge supports trigonometry by 3 different fingerprints, FIXP, FPDP, FPSP 22:24:35 ugh, tusho's doing one of their big reorganisations at the moment, so it isn't online 22:24:35 (fixed point, various math functions, double floating point, single floating point) 22:24:39 I'll find it on my own compute 22:24:44 AnMaster: yes, but those fingerprints are written in C 22:24:49 ais523, is the repo down? 22:24:50 the floating-point library is written in INTERCAL 22:24:53 ais523, yes they are 22:24:56 AnMaster: yes, temporarily 22:24:59 and they just use libmath 22:25:06 err 22:25:08 libm 22:25:24 ais523, well I wouldn't know how to write it in C even 22:25:28 sin and such I mean 22:25:51 I would use lookup tables or a calculator, I couldn't calculate it by hand 22:26:15 well if I had sin() I could calculate cos() and tan() 22:26:27 and possibly arcsin() and such too 22:26:40 + - floor (both integer and real result) * / mod cast-from-integer sqrt ln exp pow sin cos tan random 22:26:44 that's what's supported 22:26:51 ah 22:27:03 ais523, do you optimize those into C? 22:27:08 no 22:27:10 iirc you said you did for some parts in syslib 22:27:16 it would be easy enough to write an expansion library that does 22:27:33 and no, what I have is a version of syslib in both C and in INTERCAL, and you can link either 22:27:39 ah 22:27:45 ais523, does one need ec then? 22:28:09 you need -e to link syslibc 22:28:18 whereas the INTERCAL version needs no command-line options 22:28:20 oh so can't be done with threads then 22:28:25 yes, that's it 22:28:44 ais523, hm could you optimize syslib to work even with threads? 22:29:03 AnMaster: yes, probably, but it would be quite a bit of effort 22:29:26 ais523, is the C one much faster? 22:29:33 AnMaster: I'm not sure 22:29:39 the INTERCAL one's not all that slow, actually 22:29:44 C-INTERCAL is pretty optimised for an INTERCAL compiler 22:29:47 -!- Slereah- has quit (Connection timed out). 22:29:58 let me try something 22:30:03 k 22:30:44 I'm going to time primes.i with various different command-line arguments 22:31:21 nice 22:31:34 ais523, what about a pure C version just to compare 22:31:37 would be very nice 22:31:58 (using sieve of Atkins maybe?) 22:32:16 a pure C version using the same algorithm as the INTERCAL would be an interesting comparison 22:32:16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sieve_of_Atkin 22:32:35 ais523, ah, what algorithm does intercal use then? 22:32:49 simple try-all-odd-factors, I think 22:33:02 ais523, up to the square root I assume? 22:33:36 AnMaster: probably, actually probably to half the number as square roots are slow to calculate 22:33:39 I didn't write primes.i 22:33:43 but it's a well-known benchmark 22:33:46 hm 22:34:04 ais523, well you could calculate square root once and then be done with it 22:34:13 store it in a variable or whatever 22:34:34 AnMaster: primes.i finds all primes from 0 to 65535 22:34:43 and yes, obviously you'd do it like that 22:35:08 hm 22:36:59 http://pastebin.ca/1065027 22:37:25 -beEO is slightly faster than -bfO, but not by a significant amount 22:37:49 AnMaster: what do you think? 22:37:52 hm 22:38:03 what about that instruction that generates a shell script to output it? 22:38:04 XD 22:38:10 that's -F 22:38:13 note how quick that was 22:38:16 hahaha 22:38:41 what is -f? and what is -e? 22:38:50 -f is flow optimisation 22:39:03 and -e is the external-calls system, which is needed to link in syslibc 22:39:09 -bfeEO <-- what about that 22:39:14 -E disables the auto-linking of the INTERCAL version of the system library 22:39:19 Back 22:39:29 ais523, or doesn't that work? 22:39:37 AnMaster: -f and -e contradict 22:39:43 ais523, oh? how so? 22:39:52 you can't flow-optimise the external-calls system ATM 22:39:56 aha 22:40:07 the repo will be up soon 22:40:11 ais523, what about a pure C version then? 22:40:16 I'd have to write one... 22:41:11 ais523, ah right 22:46:12 "ge/gro.elpmaxe//:ptth"37*( ... v"tset/pf/0/ten.elpmaxe.oof//:rehpog"a7+2*( ... v>"lmth.krow/moc.elpmaxe.www//:ptth"84*( ... S v>... ) ... ) ... ) > 22:46:13 um 22:46:14 wtf 22:46:27 "ge/gro.elpmaxe//:ptth"37*( ... v 22:46:27 "tset/pf/0/ten.elpmaxe.oof//:rehpog"a7+2*( ... v> 22:46:27 "lmth.krow/moc.elpmaxe.www//:ptth"84*( ... S v> 22:46:27 ... ) ... ) ... ) > 22:46:29 is what I ,eam 22:46:34 meant* 22:46:34 did you just paste some Funge-108 into the channel? 22:46:38 if so, why? 22:46:41 ais523, yes 22:46:44 for URI 22:46:49 does it look nice or not 22:46:59 AnMaster: maybe you should make it be reversed 22:47:05 tusho, oh? 22:47:15 AnMaster: so that you could write it the right way around 22:47:17 tusho, the original example was: 22:47:18 although I admit it looks pretty as is 22:47:23 ".G.E"4( ... "TSET"4( ... "KROW"4( ... S ... ) ... ) ... ) 22:47:37 I just assigned some uris and translated the funge98 example 22:47:48 in a way that would fit within the width of the pdf file 22:47:53 AnMaster: but, try reversing those strings 22:47:56 it'll look a lot nicer 22:47:57 simple 22:48:12 $ echo "ge/gro.elpmaxe//:ptth" | rev 22:48:12 http://example.org/eg 22:48:24 AnMaster: exactly 22:48:30 tusho, they should be gnirts, not strings 22:48:34 "http://example.org/eg"37* 22:48:40 as befunge does 0"gnirts" elsewhere 22:48:47 AnMaster: fine 22:48:48 tusho, like for i and o instructions 22:48:57 tusho, I just try to keep it consistent 22:49:03 AnMaster: well, personally I like writing strings with left-to-right execution 22:49:07 so they look good in the source 22:49:11 ais523: ditto... 22:49:12 s/left-to-right/right-to-left/ 22:49:16 oh 22:50:01 hsi-egnufeB yrev t'nera uoy sey ,ohsut 22:50:02 ! 22:50:19 tusho, that was to you btw 22:50:31 heh 22:50:49 ais523, is there any emacs command to reverse a selection? 22:50:53 would be very useful 22:54:14 tusho, also iirc there is some fingerprint that can read strings from funge-space 22:54:21 not sure if I implement that yet 22:54:34 AnMaster: I don't know 22:54:36 it is one I most likely will implement however 22:55:01 I'm going to upload a new pdf and lyx file btw 22:56:48 uploading 22:57:10 http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge-108/funge108.pdf and http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge-108/funge108-lyx.tar.bz2 22:57:13 ais523, ^ 22:57:18 contains last updates as of today 22:58:23 ais523, 55 pages now 22:58:39 I wonder if we can make it as long as the C standard 22:58:41 just kidding 22:59:56 AnMaster: tusho has just moved the C-INTERCAL repo to http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/ 23:00:06 ais523: but with consent from you! 23:00:10 ais523, how do I make darcs switch 23:00:11 jeez, stop twisting words 23:00:11 :P 23:00:17 tusho: yes, but I'd still like a redirect 23:00:23 AnMaster: specify the new URL the next time you pull 23:00:30 in fact, try that now, I made a change 23:00:30 ais523: i'd like to not innundate eso-std.org with cruft before it even gets started 23:00:36 to make it compatible with your fixes to cfunge 23:00:56 tusho: well, it'll never get started if nobody can link to it 23:01:01 ais523, is there any way to auto say y when you pull? 23:01:08 ais523: oh shush :) 23:01:08 AnMaster: yep, a return 23:01:17 ais523, I mean for all changes 23:01:29 that says y to all changes 23:01:40 but I think there's a command-line arg for that too if you find it easier 23:01:41 ais523, no that says: 23:01:44 "Invalid response, try again!" 23:01:58 darcs pull -a http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/ 23:02:09 ah 23:02:20 ais523: you might wanna tell a.l.intercal about the new url 23:02:34 tusho: not until its stable for a while, until then, you use redirects 23:02:37 ais523, cftoec.sh is no longer chmod +x? 23:02:42 Wikipedia has redirects in that are years old in case people link to them 23:02:52 AnMaster: darcs is really bad at versioning permissions, it's a major problem 23:02:55 it's meant to be +x 23:03:02 but darcs tends to forget the permissions on things 23:03:08 I see 23:03:44 ais523, will c-intercal modify cfunge source in place or copy it? 23:04:05 AnMaster: it compiles it into a .cio file 23:04:07 because my cfunge trunk contains lots of cruft like test files and such 23:04:10 which is a modified version with some metadata 23:04:19 so .cio and .c files with the same name are overwritten 23:04:23 oh, cfunge 23:04:26 it copies it 23:04:43 you probably want to do it from a clean source-tree, though 23:04:51 because it just compiles all .c files it finds in the source tree 23:04:58 regardless of what they're called 23:05:31 ais523, fun trick with cfunge that I use myself to test speed: 23:05:46 -combine 23:06:04 AnMaster: well, I don't use that when compiling the library 23:06:07 that makes certain inter-file optimization possible 23:06:16 AnMaster: well, I don't really care about speed for fffungi 23:06:18 ais523, also it helps me detect certain bugs 23:06:24 computed COME FROM is inherently slow 23:06:35 like extern of variable in source file (forbidden in my coding standard) 23:06:46 I used it on crossfire however to detect conflicting such extern 23:07:05 ais523, well what about having non-computed ones as well? 23:07:32 ais523, I could provide a place to hook in and monitor changes to funge-space so you could just update the info as you need it 23:07:49 AnMaster: you're overthinking this, really 23:07:54 haha 23:07:55 besides, -e treats all COME FROMs as computed 23:07:59 ais523, well I always tend to do that 23:08:10 even the ones in the INTERCAL program 23:08:15 due to dynamic line labels and such 23:08:47 ais523, where was the example to try then? 23:08:48 I forgot 23:08:51 for cfunge 23:09:04 pit/tests/iffit1.i and pit/tests/iffit2.b98 23:09:07 you compile them together 23:09:18 as ick -bea iffit1.i iffit2.b98 23:09:25 bin/ick -eba pit/tests/iffit2.b98 pit/tests/iffit1.i ? 23:09:27 what is -a? 23:09:32 AnMaster: enables CREATE support 23:09:36 otherwise the very last test fails 23:09:41 oh I see 23:09:43 because the thing it's testing isn't supported 23:09:43 what is CREATE? 23:09:52 AnMaster: gives meaning to syntax that previously didn't have any 23:09:59 there's a DO T .1 in the INTERCAL file 23:10:02 that means nothing to start with 23:10:08 $ bin/ick -eba pit/tests/iffit1.i pit/tests/iffit2.b98 23:10:08 ICL127I SAYING 'ABRACADABRA' WITHOUT A MAGIC WAND WON'T DO YOU ANY GOOD 23:10:10 but the Befunge file gives it a definition 23:10:12 ON THE WAY TO THE CLOSET 23:10:14 wtf? 23:10:17 AnMaster: that's an installation problem 23:10:31 ais523, so what is wrong? 23:10:45 AnMaster: did you reinstall C-INTERCAL after generating the library? 23:10:50 otherwise it won't have been installed 23:10:53 oh no I forgot that 23:10:58 make install 23:11:00 still same error 23:11:05 strange 23:11:11 there's an option to debug that 23:11:14 let me remember which one it is 23:11:24 $ ls /home/arvid/local/ick/lib/ 23:11:25 libick.a libickec.a libickmt.a libyuk.a 23:11:26 add -u to the command line 23:11:28 isn't there 23:11:36 ah, why not? 23:11:51 ais523, no idea 23:11:53 anyway 23:11:55 from that command 23:12:02 is it in lib in the C-INTERCAL development sources? 23:12:09 http://rafb.net/p/IusI1X29.html 23:12:24 $ ls lib/ 23:12:24 COPYING.txt compunex.c coopt.sh ick-wrap.c libick.a libick_ecto_b98.a libickec.a libickmt.a libyuk.a pickwrap.c syslibc.c 23:12:33 libick_ecto_b98.a I guess? 23:12:37 AnMaster: that one's fine 23:12:44 it's missing the other half, ecto_b98.c 23:12:45 ais523, so make install is broken? 23:12:54 AnMaster: try make lib/ecto_b98.c 23:13:03 I may have screwed up make's dependencies somewhere 23:13:06 $ make lib/ecto_b98.c 23:13:06 make: *** No rule to make target `lib/ecto_b98.c'. Stop. 23:13:12 yep 23:13:18 AnMaster: ah, reconfigure 23:13:18 ais523, looks like you fail at detecting when to re-generate makefile 23:13:25 something automake would do for you 23:13:28 I don't regenerate the makefile except on request 23:13:33 so this would be handled automatically in automake 23:13:37 I thought that was normal 23:13:54 config.status will regenerate it 23:13:57 ais523, well I'm used to smart build systems 23:14:07 cmake is semi smart in that aspect 23:14:16 working now? 23:14:23 waiting 23:14:26 it is recompiling it all now 23:14:38 ugh, I must have changed something relevant 23:14:47 sh -c "[ `whoami` = root ] && : -q" 23:14:47 make: [install] Error 1 (ignored) 23:14:48 hm? 23:14:53 yep, that's fine 23:15:08 I should have put || : at the end of that, though 23:15:13 ok 23:15:16 because that's meant to be able to fail 23:15:17 ais523, now where is the outfile 23:15:19 and it surpresses the error 23:15:21 can't find it 23:15:24 AnMaster: should be iffit1 23:15:26 with no extension 23:15:34 and it'll be in the same dir as the sources 23:15:34 $ bin/ick -eba pit/tests/iffit1.i pit/tests/iffit2.b98 23:15:38 oh ok 23:15:39 so pit/tests/iffit1 23:16:13 basically it just chops off the extension of the INTERCAL source to give the output file 23:16:19 ais523, some cool things to write would be some thing to make use of fingerprints to in befunge to make it possible to do stuff you can't normally in intercal easily 23:16:23 as examples 23:16:29 yes, probably 23:16:38 although that would be a good example for the C things too 23:16:43 did it work, anyway? 23:16:48 http://rafb.net/p/zIUcbS97.html 23:16:51 if that is correct then yes 23:16:55 run it with +wimpmode if you find Roman numerals hard to read 23:16:58 it should just count up to 18 23:17:04 ==4763== still reachable: 3,208,940 bytes in 287 blocks. 23:17:05 hm 23:17:15 AnMaster: it isn't deallocating the cfunge stuff on exit 23:17:19 it can't, really 23:17:23 without messing with atexit 23:17:23 that could be cfunge I guess in RELEASE mode 23:17:26 ais523, ah 23:17:28 I see 23:17:42 I checked, it's all cfunge internals, and all still-reachable 23:17:43 well if you study cfunge you will notice it only does it in DEBUG 23:17:46 most of it's the hash thing 23:17:59 and it's pretty hard to figure out when the deallocation's needed 23:18:05 DEBUG deallocate EVERYTHING at exit 23:18:14 RELEASE: assume OS can do it's job 23:18:28 ais523, well it is needed in atexit() if ever 23:18:37 I assume OS will do it's job unless DEBUG is set 23:18:55 ais523, because the only things I deallocate in atexit() are such that need to persist to the very last moment 23:18:59 that stuff's all being used until the last moment 23:19:04 that is, all the Befunge stuff 23:19:17 because everything else is freed by cfunge 23:19:24 that's just funge-space and one IP that you're seeing there 23:19:33 yes cfunge is valgrind clean apart from stuff that aren't really leaks 23:19:37 and yes, that is expected output 23:19:52 pit/tests/iffit.doc for the expected output with an explanation, by the way 23:20:12 I assume this is ASCII text? 23:20:17 AnMaster: yes 23:20:23 ah good no word:) 23:20:29 "No, it's an MS Word 2007 document." 23:20:32 all the C-INTERCAL examples are documented like that 23:20:32 "OOXML!" 23:20:35 tusho: that would be .docx 23:20:38 tusho, that would be .docx 23:20:43 No it wouldn't. 23:20:46 oops ais523 was first 23:20:46 That's not DOS-compatible! 23:20:48 and I think the C-INTERCAL extension predates Word becoming popular 23:20:55 They'd have to compromise and use .doc. 23:21:12 tusho: .dcx with DJGPP's mangling scheme, I think, it favours removing vowels 23:21:14 tusho, well they haven't done that 23:21:29 ais523, that is pretty wtf ;P 23:22:06 I Printed at the start of the INTERCAL program; tests Y. 23:22:10 ais523, what does that mean? 23:22:18 AnMaster: I is 1 in Roman Numerals 23:22:28 I mean Y 23:22:28 ... 23:22:34 and Y is "yield", which the Funge program runs once to start the INTERCAL program running 23:22:48 i.e. the Funge program starts first, does its initialisation, then runs Y and the INTERCAL program starts 23:22:59 you can't use anything else in the fingerprint until you use Y 23:23:03 except for A 23:23:05 ais523, I see, does C program also run first when doing that FFI? 23:23:15 AnMaster: C programs can define blocks which run first 23:23:18 ais523, where are the fingerprint docs btw? 23:23:20 once they end, the program starts 23:23:26 AnMaster: they're in the texinfo source 23:23:30 so doc/ick.txi 23:23:39 there's a makefile there that'll compile it to a lot of formats you know 23:23:50 ais523, pure text would be a good one atm 23:23:53 doc/ick.txt 23:23:58 but you'll have to search for it 23:24:04 because that's one long file that documents everything 23:24:14 the text is pregenerated for people who don't have texinfo 23:24:18 arvid@tux ~/src/c-intercal/doc $ make 23:24:19 make: *** No rule to make target `x.mm', needed by `x.txt'. Stop. 23:24:22 it that supposed to happen? 23:24:24 yep 23:24:25 make allnew 23:24:31 for the new documentation 23:24:39 why the odd error then? 23:24:46 actually, I've often wondered why the makefile deliberately chokes when not given a target 23:24:58 it's done that since before I started maintaining C-INTERCAL 23:25:05 so I assumed there was a good reason... 23:25:10 ais523, may be worth fixing it then 23:25:10 probably there isn't, though 23:25:17 it's clearly deliberate 23:25:26 although a bit of a strange way to do it 23:25:28 ais523, well give it something like: 23:25:29 all: 23:25:38 echo "Please use one of these targets:" 23:25:41 or something like tyhat 23:25:49 well, I have an all target that builds everything too, I think 23:25:50 that* 23:25:56 um? 23:26:03 I think normally people don't want everything, though 23:26:04 all is the default target isn't it? 23:26:12 AnMaster: no, the first target is the default 23:26:16 no matter what it's called 23:26:22 ais523, well right, but make default target explain what is going on 23:26:29 yes, I should do 23:26:43 "This section will not make much sense to a non-Funge programmer; 23:26:43 therefore, if you are not used to Funge, you probably want to skip it." 23:26:52 well same for a non-intercal programmer ;/ 23:26:52 yep, that's the one 23:27:06 yes, but the whole manual's about INTERCAL 23:27:11 yes right 23:27:16 I know 23:27:22 and actually, I think it's suitable for people who don't know INTERCAL as long as you read it in order 23:27:25 as a learning aid 23:27:39 c-intercal should require clc-intercal 23:27:39 :D 23:27:41 I tried to explain everything reasonably carefully, as a reference 23:27:45 tusho: why? 23:27:50 for crazity 23:28:19 ais523, has anyone coded an intercal interpreter or compiler in intercal? 23:28:19 tusho: C-INTERCAL isn't crazy, it's the sane end of the INTERCAL implementation market 23:28:22 that would be crazy 23:28:30 AnMaster: I don't think so, INTERCAL's a pain to parse 23:28:34 it's even kind-of tricky to lex 23:28:40 ais523, so a C->INTERCAL compiler 23:28:42 ais523: which is still pretty crazy... 23:28:46 then compile C-INTERCAL using that? 23:28:48 XD 23:28:53 AnMaster: yes, that would probably be easier 23:28:56 which is worrying 23:28:59 ais523, indeed 23:29:14 ais523, is there a limit of number of lines in INTERCAL? 23:29:19 AnMaster: available memory 23:29:24 there is a limit to line length, though 23:29:25 so it is turing complete then 23:29:27 and number of line numbers 23:29:33 but not all lines need be numbered 23:29:39 and it's turing complete quite easily 23:29:41 ah right 23:29:48 in fact, I think it's even turing complete without variables 23:29:59 the flow structure is rich enough 23:30:29 haha 23:30:45 I tried to prove that once but got confused 23:31:09 anyway, I'm going home now 23:31:16 but I'm glad it works 23:31:31 hmm... I'd like to give INTERCAL lessons some time, but I'm not sure who'd be interested 23:31:37 it's an interesting idea 23:31:41 but bye for now, anyway 23:31:45 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1""). 23:31:49 I would be! 23:31:49 heh 23:31:53 Real-life ones, I assume. 23:32:00 :D 23:32:01 well I couldn't go to UK 23:32:05 need to sleep as well 23:32:07 i could, very easily 23:32:08 watch: 23:32:09 boom! 23:32:11 I just went to the UK 23:32:17 hah 23:32:21 you were in UK... 23:32:22 didn't have to do much 23:32:27 but it's the thought that counts 23:33:40 hah 23:33:51 hrrm.... 23:33:57 INTERCAL and Befunge 23:34:00 the dynamic duo! 23:34:02 * AnMaster runs 23:35:15 :D 23:36:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 23:36:30 ./src/fingerprints/IFFI/IFFI.c:38: warning: no previous prototype for 'ick_SaveIPPosDelta' 23:36:30 ./src/fingerprints/IFFI/IFFI.c:46: warning: no previous prototype for 'ick_RestoreIPPosDelta' 23:36:30 ./src/fingerprints/IFFI/IFFI.c:54: warning: no previous prototype for 'ick_InterpreterRun' 23:36:30 ./src/fingerprints/IFFI/IFFI.c:79: warning: no previous prototype for 'ick_iffi_InterpreterOneIteration' 23:36:31 hm 23:37:29 will have to tell ais tomorrow 23:39:06 tusho, but very few warnings :D 23:39:19 Yayyyyyyyyyyy. 23:39:41 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:40:03 tusho, just those from IFFI 23:44:23 tusho, 23:44:28 AnMaster, 23:44:34 I want a permalink to the darcs repo for ick 23:44:42 one that will work for the next few years 23:44:43 at least 23:44:51 AnMaster: And I want a pony. 23:44:59 But http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/ should be stable. 23:45:02 (With the ending slash.) 23:45:07 really? good 23:45:29 AnMaster: But, you know. There's never any guarantees 23:45:37 Who knows if ESO will exist in the next few years? 23:45:58 I also doubt people will be desperately trying to follow links to the repository in a few years, AnMaster. 23:46:04 Especially not so much that they're disappointed before you can fix it. 23:46:23 tusho, well a few months then 23:46:31 I expect this will be stable now :) 23:46:37 AnMaster: It'll probably be. 23:46:39 It's a reasonable URL. 23:46:47 tusho, /msg me if you change it 23:47:02 AnMaster: I'll just tell you in here... 23:47:11 (Actually, I was going to change it and NOT TELL ANYONE about the new URL.) 23:47:13 tusho, msg is better in case I'm away 23:47:14 (Great idea right?) 23:47:33 tusho, or if I'm not here just use memoserv 23:47:41 and if I'm here and marked away just use /msg 23:47:57 I'll just highlight you. 23:47:58 AnMaster. 23:49:57 tusho, no thanks I don't have a long scrollback 23:50:19 if I'm not here (I'm going to Norway the day after tomorrow), just use memoserv 23:50:22 AnM*ster: if I ever highlight you again, it'll mean I moved it! 23:52:49 tusho, my client won't be online when I'm in Norway 23:52:52 thus memoserv 23:53:02 AnM*ster: Grep logs! 2008-07-08: 00:00:29 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:17:36 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:42:25 -!- Corun has joined. 00:51:28 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 01:14:48 -!- kwertii has joined. 01:34:08 -!- tusho has quit. 01:46:56 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:58:37 -!- kwertii has quit ("bye"). 02:46:14 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:30:52 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:31:56 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:32:31 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:36:58 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:56:39 -!- immibis has joined. 04:57:18 ...what happened to the topic? 05:07:11 and where's egobot? i was going to submit a fukyorbrane program but he's not here 05:18:35 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 05:54:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 06:03:58 also i found several bugs in fukyorbrane-a0.6 07:25:57 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. and dlte ur files. and email ths to). 07:27:40 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:41:51 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 08:53:53 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:54:36 -!- immibis has joined. 08:54:48 -!- puzzlet_ has changed nick to puzzlet. 08:55:28 -!- immibis has changed nick to computerdude_. 08:55:47 -!- computerdude_ has changed nick to immibis. 08:56:35 -!- immibis has changed nick to Bobby. 09:06:42 -!- Bobby has changed nick to immibis. 09:06:55 morning 09:06:56 ...why was my name bobby...even my real names not bobby... 09:07:19 immibis, egobot: no idea what happened to it 09:07:28 topic: what do you mean? 09:07:38 probably nobody decided to run it 09:07:49 topic: "fuck man i'm haf fah m'o nam kcuf" 09:07:51 someone wrote "fuck man i'm haf" in a esolang spec 09:08:02 turned out he was high when he did it 09:08:09 ... 09:08:18 somehow, not sure who did it, it ended up in topic 09:08:29 immibis, ask tusho/ehird when he gets here 09:08:36 he should know why it is in topic 09:08:37 ok 09:20:38 -!- Slereah- has joined. 09:34:05 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 09:34:05 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:35:18 -!- Slereah- has joined. 09:35:19 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:56:06 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 09:56:06 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:12:25 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 10:15:31 ais523: i want a lesson. would've wanted earlier, but i was seriously wondering whether i could fly to england for the lesson 10:16:01 but i don't think i have the balls for that. 10:16:16 * oklopol slaps oklopol with a serious trout 10:24:11 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:35:37 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:35:53 -!- Slereah- has joined. 10:39:11 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:41:53 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 10:41:53 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:48:47 -!- Slereah- has joined. 10:49:21 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:50:16 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:50:21 -!- Slereah- has joined. 10:53:22 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:53:48 -!- Slereah- has joined. 10:56:06 -!- atsampson has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 10:56:36 -!- atsampson has joined. 11:01:53 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:01:53 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:06:12 -!- Slereah- has joined. 11:09:27 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:11:33 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:11:33 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:12:43 -!- Slereah- has joined. 11:12:43 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:13:43 -!- Corun has joined. 11:14:13 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:14:17 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:16:50 -!- Slereah- has joined. 11:16:50 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:37:59 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:46:32 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:47:59 Slereah-, fix your connection 11:53:42 As soon as I'll know how to do it. 11:55:44 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:56:46 ok 11:57:11 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:24:00 Deewiant, I updated the mini-funge specs to work with Funge-108 and included it as an appendix and an optional extension "but if you do something like this, it is RECOMMENDED you select this variant" 12:24:05 * AnMaster uploads 12:25:43 http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge-108/ 12:36:22 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:37:44 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:54:38 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 12:58:04 -!- Slereah- has joined. 12:58:24 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:26:53 -!- Hiato has joined. 13:40:05 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 13:53:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:54:07 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 13:57:12 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:11:02 -!- Corun has joined. 14:11:10 -!- oklopol has joined. 14:38:31 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:38:39 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:06:19 Bye all 15:07:07 hm 15:08:05 AnMaster: so which minifunge specs did you pick 15:09:13 Deewiant, the !Befunge one 15:09:40 Deewiant, see appendix C in http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge-108/ 15:10:16 Deewiant, slightly modified to support the more modern URI fingerprints 15:10:23 fingerprints should be renamed I think btw 15:10:28 called extensions 15:10:36 as fingerprint is the string like TURT 15:10:38 btw, some of the D.1 interpreters can do 93 as well as 98 15:10:46 otherwise we would call them URIs 15:10:50 D.1? 15:10:52 eh? 15:10:58 section D.1 15:11:06 ah 15:11:17 Deewiant, what ones? 15:11:31 not sure 15:11:37 CCBI? 15:11:37 but some of them definitely can 15:11:42 no 15:11:44 FBBI? 15:11:47 maybe 15:12:13 FBBI, !Befunge, RC/Funge-98 - maybe 15:12:20 jsbef and zfunge, don't think so 15:12:28 but not sure of those either 15:12:59 and cfunge can semi-handle b93 15:13:05 it can handle all important differences 15:13:16 spaces and such 15:13:32 Deewiant, but thanks I'll insert a note 15:13:41 AnMaster: eh, "this system is based around the mini-funge..." you said it's !Befunge but you don't even mention it there :-) 15:14:06 Deewiant, I do mention Lee (2003) 15:14:07 iirc 15:14:13 so see reference list 15:14:41 it looks contradictory to me 15:14:59 since you say "here are the specs... see Lee (2003) for current version" 15:15:06 and then you say "these specs are based on " 15:15:22 Deewiant, hm 15:17:06 also, contradiction 15:17:22 will fix that section 15:17:25 * AnMaster rewrites 15:17:26 err crap, how do I copy from foxit 15:17:31 foxit? 15:17:42 kpdf is easy 15:17:44 my pdf reader 15:17:49 no clue 15:17:50 I just can't see the icon 15:17:56 ah, there 15:18:04 Dynamic fingerprints (Lee, 2003), also known as mini-funge, is a standard for cross-funge-implemenation fingerprint implementations. This is completely optional in Funge108 and will not be mandated in future standards either. However if a dynamic finger print system is implemented it is RECOMMENDED that the one described here is used for maximum compatiblity with other implementations. This is a revis 15:18:05 ed version of the ``Dynamic fingerprints 1.2'' as implemented in !Befunge (Jeffrey Lee, 2005). The changes that have been done is to change filename and related syntax to allow Funge-108 style URIs for fingerprints. 15:18:07 what about that? 15:18:16 um should say just (Lee, 2005) 15:18:20 * AnMaster checks bibtext file 15:18:22 bibtex* 15:18:25 Note that the dynamic fingerprint may inherit some of the constraints of the callee’s 15:18:28 environment, such as limited fungespace/stack size or lack of file access commands. The y 15:18:32 instruction should be used to query these if needed. 15:18:35 then, later 15:18:44 y Kill haunted Causes the haunted IP (and its ghost) to be killed. 15:18:44 yes 15:18:50 but that is from his original specs 15:18:54 so you have two conflicting meanings for y 15:18:56 what does !Befunge do? 15:19:02 I don't know 15:19:09 but y has specifically been redefined for that purpose 15:19:27 and then there's Y 15:19:50 yes 15:19:58 but that's for the haunted and not the ghost 15:20:46 AnMaster: also, eh, "finally tracked down copies of"... I have copies of everything on my mycology comparison page :-P 15:21:04 Deewiant, that is copied from his version 15:21:05 ... 15:21:12 ah, okay 15:21:32 and btw, CCBI's system is RC/Funge-98's 15:22:17 Deewiant, how does it differ? 15:22:24 not much iirc 15:22:57 somewhat, I don't remember 15:23:08 Deewiant, I checked the !befunge dynafing.c, it doesn't even mention that use for y 15:23:10 enough, I think, that I won't bother to switch :-P 15:23:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Success). 15:23:49 -!- timotiis has joined. 15:24:00 so what about using X for killing? 15:24:01 AnMaster: you can see it here for instance: http://www.imaginaryrobots.net/projects/funge/rcfunge.txt 15:24:09 doesn't use y, Y 15:24:19 doesn't have the =t =@ hooks 15:24:36 and probably more differences 15:24:58 like that said, "this is going against the grain a bit" ;-) 15:25:17 I think the !Befunge one is neater 15:25:38 Deewiant, maybe I'll combine them 15:25:39 more featured at least 15:25:49 it'd be nice if you enumerated the differences 15:25:58 even nicer 15:25:59 Deewiant, I'd combine them 15:26:04 have a table in your PDF which compares all three 15:26:33 all three? 15:26:36 um 15:26:57 !Befunge-type, zfunge-type, your combination 15:27:01 Deewiant, anyway rcfunge one is more restricted 15:27:13 as it doesn't allow stuff like loading fingerprints inside the ghost 15:27:26 that one does? O_o 15:27:46 Deewiant, certainly, you could load FILE and use something 15:27:53 Deewiant, you can't use t however 15:29:02 Deewiant, another difference: g and G are reversed 15:29:09 same for p and P 15:29:21 in !befunge P and G changes in the haunted ip 15:29:31 and g/p in the ghost 15:29:38 while in rc-funge that is reversed 15:30:19 Deewiant, apart from that !Befunge one just have more features it seems 15:31:18 Deewiant, if not noted otherwise the !befunge one's instruction by default work on the fingerprint, nothing else 15:32:03 Deewiant, is this a problem? 15:32:05 or what? 15:32:13 a problem? why? 15:32:20 you went "O_o" 15:32:29 I was just surprised 15:32:45 and I thought it might mean a lot of changes to my current mini-funge hac^Wimpl 15:32:54 but I'm not sure actually 15:32:58 ok 15:33:01 might be fairly easy if I wanted to do it 15:33:05 heh 15:33:18 even my current mini-funge is hardly tested 15:33:25 for cfunge I would just need multiple funge spaces + different main loop 15:33:31 I wrote it really quickly after I thought I had everything done 15:33:40 hah 15:33:49 I was like "oh, crap, yeah, mini-funge" 15:33:52 takatakataka 15:33:59 some hello-worldish test 15:34:03 "great, it works, done." 15:34:22 AnMaster: do you pass the IP to instructions? 15:34:24 Deewiant, well I'm not sure cfunge will implement mini-funge 15:34:29 Deewiant, hm? 15:34:32 what do you mean? 15:34:34 or do you use a global or some such 15:34:35 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 15:34:38 in cfunge? 15:34:41 depends on where 15:34:45 I pass ip around 15:34:50 I don't pass funge space around 15:34:59 funge space is a global? 15:35:14 well a static + interface using functions only 15:35:20 so you can't just modify it directly 15:36:26 in CCBI the current IP is a global but a funge-space pointer is carried around by each Ip 15:36:35 Deewiant, odd! 15:36:43 :-D 15:36:49 I think funge-space was originally a global too 15:37:01 and the main one actually still is 15:37:08 Deewiant, well I don't plan to change the main funge space from a global 15:37:22 it's way faster to access it in the current way 15:37:37 it might even be faster when it's local, actually 15:37:45 um? 15:37:51 might explain the speed difference between CCBI and cfunge ;-) 15:37:55 accessing a static variable 15:38:00 vs. passing it around 15:38:06 Deewiant, there are other parts too 15:38:17 like using switch not function pointers 15:38:19 D vs. C 15:38:25 and a lot more 15:38:37 the only significant difference that I suspect is the associative array 15:38:43 Deewiant, what is the ccbi MHz / native MHz ratio? 15:38:51 beats me 15:39:04 and what do you mean by that 15:39:22 instructions per second 15:39:44 haven't measured 15:39:45 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 15:39:56 or actually 15:39:58 cfunge can do about 15 MHz / second in mycology when no fingerprints are done and environment is small 15:40:01 doesn't it measure that 15:40:08 Deewiant, eh? 15:40:11 "Hz / second"? non-unit 15:40:23 Deewiant, typo 15:40:50 Deewiant, that assumes non-concurrent support too 15:40:58 for concurrent support around 12 MHz 15:41:13 this is on a 2 GHz box 15:41:15 Sempron 15:41:20 so small cpu cache 15:41:23 so that's just a timing from start of main loop (after loading) to after? 15:41:46 or the whole program runtime? 15:41:55 Deewiant, actually just runtime 15:41:59 so a bit faster indeed 15:42:05 if you discard loading time 15:42:13 quite a bit faster then 15:42:23 then you can get it from CCBI easily, since ccbi -c gives the number of instructions executed (and ticks) 15:42:46 Deewiant, well that isn't fair unless you can give be a 64-bit ccbi 15:42:54 amd64 got a way better calling convention 15:43:04 and more CPU registers 15:43:16 whatever 15:44:08 anyway I hoped ais would show up before I went to norway tomorrow 15:44:15 guess I'll send him a mail 15:44:38 I renamed a #define he uses, to be able to do funge98 and funge108 handprints 15:45:01 which is an URI 15:48:43 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 15:52:44 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 15:52:44 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:57:58 -!- Corun has joined. 15:59:26 Deewiant, I'm adding a bulk copy instruction. 16:01:13 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:01:24 to transfer data between haunted and ghost 16:09:59 as i and o in ghost would operate on ghost funge space 16:11:34 -!- tusho has joined. 16:11:57 hi ais523 16:12:27 hmm 16:12:29 AnMaster: why isn't he here? 16:13:16 ais? no idea 16:13:21 I need to reach him today 16:13:30 email him 16:13:33 but still 16:13:34 he's normally here.. 16:13:42 typical, he goes one day after rebuilding the eso machine 16:13:47 :) 16:14:08 tusho, I wish to join eso after I get back from Norway in two days time 16:14:18 as I'm leaving tomorrow morning and then staying one night 16:14:33 so the day after the day after tomorrow 16:14:55 AnMaster: as long as you don't argue too much, me and ais fill up the argument space just fine as it is :P 16:15:02 tusho, hah 16:15:10 tusho, well I'll mainly work with funge108 16:15:29 AnMaster: yes, we'll have to see about that once we figure out what format we're using for the standards 16:15:33 it's not as simple as you think 16:15:44 we want _semantic_ data (NOT the typesetting data that tex does) 16:15:53 lyx gives semantic 16:15:54 but we don't want it to be unusable for our purposes (xml2rfc), 16:16:04 or really horrible (loads of stuff) 16:16:09 also, we want superb HTML support 16:16:17 which kind of excludes LyX 16:16:18 tusho, ok maybe Funge108 will not be done under eso then 16:16:22 because I will do LaTeX 16:16:31 even if LaTeX does support exporting to html 16:16:31 AnMaster: it's not that hard to convert it at the end 16:16:36 it doesn't look good 16:16:47 tusho, well the pdf one will be the official one 16:16:48 period 16:17:02 AnMaster: A propietary format as the official version? 16:17:07 Yeah, um, no, ESO will NOT do that. 16:17:15 tusho, no right, I can export to text 16:17:16 No way. 16:17:26 anyway LaTeX one will be official 16:17:27 :) 16:17:36 that isn't propietary 16:18:15 tusho, issue solved :P 16:18:58 AnMaster: I thought LyX was going to be the official 16:19:15 tusho, well that is a semi-proprietary compared to LaTeX 16:19:20 so I said LaTeX to be sure 16:19:20 wtf 16:19:22 lyx is open source 16:19:27 ... 16:19:28 isn't it 16:19:30 tusho, yes but just one implementation 16:19:31 :P 16:19:38 so not as free and open as LaTeX 16:19:47 LaTeX is more established 16:19:51 fine by me 16:19:58 but LyX could work too 16:20:01 ESO will use ruby heavily, that's a language without a spec :P 16:20:09 tusho, it got no spec!? 16:20:16 AnMaster: just like python, perl, ... 16:20:16 does python have a spec then? 16:20:19 oh my 16:20:34 well you just gave me another reason to not use those languages 16:20:45 AnMaster: work on a ruby spec is underway 16:20:47 and going quite well 16:20:49 nice 16:20:51 the same cannot be said for python, perl 16:20:56 tusho, erlang! 16:21:03 AnMaster: does erlang have a spec? 16:21:04 beats me 16:21:09 tusho, it does iirc 16:21:13 ok 16:21:19 there's only one implementation that I know of, though 16:21:19 tusho, and there is always ADA 16:21:24 It's Ada 16:21:25 not ADA 16:21:28 kk 16:21:40 AnMaster: oh, and we don't actually use the official ruby interp 16:21:52 we use a fork of it which has a copy-on-write garbage collector and uses quite a bit less memory 16:21:58 and is faster at serving web apps 16:22:02 nice 16:22:07 the only bad bit about it is its awful awful name 16:22:10 'Ruby Enterprise Edition', I mean wtf 16:22:34 it is open source? 16:22:42 yes 16:22:45 which makes the name even more ridiculous 16:22:51 indeed 16:23:14 it's from the same company that makes Passenger 16:23:17 tusho, why is this not in official ruby? 16:23:25 Passenger? 16:23:31 AnMaster: i'm not exactly sure _why_ they forked and didn't try and integrate 16:23:41 but, that's how it is 16:23:43 Passenger? 16:23:55 AnMaster: it's that apache module I talked about 16:24:00 ah right 16:24:02 now I remember 16:24:11 it also supports python's WSGI 16:24:16 but that's just a proof of concept kinda thing 16:24:20 and there's already mod_wsgi for that :-P 16:24:40 (wsgi=webserver gateway interface, basically a standard for python webframeworks to use so that they can plug into any web server) 16:25:07 tusho, anyway lyx's own format sometimes breaks with updates, while LaTeX won't for years and years to come 16:25:15 so that is another good reason to export it to latex 16:25:17 real men use TeX 16:25:19 :) 16:25:25 very fun 16:25:40 anyway, maybe once we've devised the format you might change your mind, it'll look just like LyX, probably :-P 16:25:42 we'll see 16:25:46 either way we'll provide hosting 16:26:06 tusho, however I may not be a real man, if you define that as masochism 16:26:26 AnMaster: do you code in any language other than single bits of machine code? 16:26:44 eh of course I code in C 16:26:51 AnMaster: REAL MAN STATUS: REVOKED 16:26:59 tusho, you code in python 16:27:08 so you are no real man either 16:27:21 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:27:24 AnMaster: you wouldn't know a joke if it hit you in the face until you died a bloody death after it whips away all your skin 16:27:33 tusho, sorry I forgot the ~ 16:27:51 AnMaster: and I intentionally left mine off 16:27:53 :) 16:27:56 hah 16:28:09 -!- jix has joined. 16:28:34 tusho, well maybe you reached the level of $\approxeq$ then? 16:28:39 hah 16:28:43 two ~ over a _ 16:28:55 AnMaster: oh, and we have decided never to let PHP or MySQL hit the server 16:29:00 I mean, one because ... no, just no 16:29:06 and two because it doesn't support Apache's worker version 16:29:08 you have to use prefork 16:29:12 the last time we used prefork? 16:29:14 well... postgre rocks 16:29:15 we got like 16MB left 16:29:16 always 16:29:20 AnMaster: yeah, we'll have postgre 16:29:42 and lighttpd > apache 16:30:01 AnMaster: yes, but we use Passenger and also a variety of crazy setups so it's not really an option 16:30:08 (e.g. no /var/www) 16:30:11 tusho, what about arc? 16:30:15 will you support arc!? 16:30:17 * AnMaster runs 16:30:21 AnMaster: yes! 16:30:25 Arc Enterprise Edition 16:30:26 tusho, really? 16:30:28 :D 16:30:32 hah 16:30:49 tusho, you want a good front page too 16:31:05 tusho, something looking like IETF one 16:31:07 or something 16:31:14 or ISO one 16:31:18 bbiab 16:31:24 AnMaster: IETF's looks like it's from 1996 16:31:25 which it is 16:31:26 :p 16:31:30 but yes, we'll have a nice main page 16:31:44 right now, eso-std.org just gives you a directory listing with this: http://eso-std.org/infinite-nah.html (requires JS) 16:32:00 though http://code.eso-std.org/ has C-INTERCAL 16:32:09 -!- RedDak has joined. 16:33:26 -!- Slereah- has joined. 16:33:27 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:36:53 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 16:39:59 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:41:28 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 16:48:08 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:52:42 -!- Polar has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 16:54:26 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 16:58:35 tusho, will you host svn and bzr too? 16:58:42 and what about mercurial? 16:59:03 AnMaster: mercurial, yes 16:59:13 bzr, yes, but I'll complain quietly :p 16:59:23 svn ... only if absolutely, definitely, completely required 16:59:46 -!- Polar has joined. 17:00:36 -!- Polar has quit (Connection reset by peer). 17:01:57 tusho, cvs? 17:02:05 AnMaster: OVER MY DEAD BODY 17:02:08 hah :D 17:02:16 rcs? 17:02:28 * AnMaster watches tusho go spare 17:02:31 AnMaster: if an implementation of rcs in arc is provided, yes! 17:02:41 tusho, what about cvs in arc? 17:02:49 AnMaster: it'd have to be in arc-php 17:02:53 haha 17:03:00 tusho, but you don't do php you said? 17:03:03 and be controlled entirely with your mind and ajax 17:03:24 tusho, so that only leaves git 17:03:30 which you will host I guess 17:03:32 wait there are more 17:03:35 tusho, monotone? 17:03:37 tla? 17:03:42 AnMaster: yep 17:03:45 monotone is kinda neat 17:03:50 tla is weiiiiiiiiird, but in a kind of cute way 17:03:53 -!- Polar has joined. 17:03:59 bzr is like improved tla 17:04:11 AnMaster: yes, but without the craziness 17:04:14 oh, and arch2.. 17:04:15 tusho, indeed 17:04:26 arch2 is fun because it is even crazier 17:04:27 :) 17:04:32 it is? 17:04:35 AnMaster: no bitkeeper though ;) 17:04:36 hm 17:04:36 and yes 17:04:41 it has filenames like {arch}/+foo 17:04:46 ouch 17:04:52 and weird concepts of branches and trees and stuff 17:04:56 that i never could really grasp 17:05:05 steep learning curve, and I doubt it's any more useful than other VCS' 17:05:09 but its fun for its craziness 17:05:11 *it's 17:05:24 tusho, anyway bzr is happy with any http server, even if there is no directory listing, it only requires that 404 works correctly and doesn't do something crazy as redirecting 17:05:35 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 17:05:54 AnMaster: yeah 17:05:59 no pushing over http, though 17:06:00 or https 17:06:01 we'll never do that 17:06:03 always ssh 17:06:09 indeed 17:06:21 bzr can do smart server (bzr+ssh) or even plain sftp 17:06:30 that doesn't need any server side support 17:07:35 tusho, anyway does git need special server side support? 17:07:38 I know svn does 17:08:12 AnMaster: no, you need git on the server though 17:08:13 same for darcs 17:08:16 same for just about any vcs, really 17:08:18 (most of them at least) 17:08:28 well bzr can handle without that 17:08:29 ! 17:08:30 :P 17:08:36 bzr > * in that aspect 17:08:41 so what 17:08:46 that's liket he least important thing ever 17:08:47 nothing... 17:08:52 bzr+ssh is faster than sftp 17:09:28 tusho, anyway I host the funge108 spec in a bzr repo locally, could I get an account and push it to eso-std? XD 17:09:49 yes yes yes :p 17:09:53 never sudoers though 17:09:54 for bzr repo browser I recommend logger head 17:09:54 :-P 17:10:02 and we don't have browsers up right now 17:10:02 tusho, does ais have that? 17:10:05 and yes 17:10:06 tusho, ah 17:10:08 me and ais are sudoers 17:10:09 loggerhead is good 17:10:33 AnMaster: we are probably waiting until we find a browser that does multiple vcs' in one 17:10:35 tusho, bzr 1.0 or later :D 17:10:35 for consistency in the ui 17:10:42 tusho, ah, is there any such? 17:10:45 not sure 17:10:48 if there isn't, we'll write one 17:10:48 viewvc does svn and cvs 17:10:49 :) 17:11:03 tusho, you will write bzr support? 17:11:09 you'd need to do python then 17:11:09 yes 17:11:12 no 17:11:15 to talk to lib.bzr 17:11:20 err 17:11:21 i could shell out :-P 17:11:22 bzrlib 17:11:23 though 17:11:27 I think there's a ruby-python bridge 17:11:28 tusho, that would be slow 17:11:29 i could use that 17:11:30 :/ 17:12:38 loggerhead runs as fcgi done the right way btw 17:13:20 if I write it it'll predictably be in ruby+passenger 17:13:21 :p 17:13:38 and probably sinatra for the framework - http://sinatrarb.com/ - it's nice and minimal 17:13:39 tusho, trac is also great 17:13:51 * tusho stabs AnMaster repeatedly 17:13:57 why? 17:14:01 why do you hate trac? 17:14:03 trac 17:14:09 why do you hate trac? 17:14:13 AnMaster: i'd tell you but i'm lazy :D 17:14:23 well you got no reason to hate it then? 17:14:34 yes I have 17:14:39 tell me! 17:14:40 I'm just too lazy to share all the reasons right now 17:14:41 :D 17:15:04 share some? 17:15:07 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 17:15:16 yes it isn't the best bug tracker out there or the best wiki 17:15:18 however 17:15:23 all parts integrate nicely 17:15:31 AnMaster: Buy me tusho.org and I'll post an article on it. :-P 17:16:34 never 17:18:34 AnMaster: WELL THEN 17:18:35 :D 17:26:55 tusho, trac+cvs 17:27:01 * AnMaster watches tusho cringe in pain 17:27:05 AnMaster: i died 17:27:18 does track even support cvs? 17:27:22 trac* 17:27:22 yes 17:27:23 *trac 17:27:28 and CVSTrac certainly does 17:27:31 (trac's inspiration) 17:27:33 (made by sqlite author) 17:27:39 interesting 17:27:45 sqlite rocks thoug 17:27:48 though 17:27:55 or do you hate it too? 17:28:00 i like sqlite 17:38:19 it doesn't even implement all of SQL92 though :-/ 17:39:04 o 17:39:05 Deewiant: whatever 17:39:29 http://www.sqlite.org/omitted.html for anybody who's a bit more interested 17:39:36 Deewiant: yes, and? 17:40:03 and? I find myself missing said omissions 17:40:16 beyond that there is no "and". 17:50:01 -!- tusho_ has joined. 17:58:05 -!- tusho has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:32:39 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:39:06 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 18:39:19 Hello gentlemen. 18:40:26 hully 18:40:33 AnMaster gentlemen, are you thar? 18:41:05 Slereah_, yes packing 18:41:12 leaving for norway tomorrow morning 18:41:15 so kind of busy 18:41:16 why? 18:41:27 Oh, forget it then. 18:41:37 o 18:43:00 oklopol, why? 18:43:05 oklopol, going to oslo 18:43:25 seeing the Fram Museum, Viking ship museum, and so on 18:43:47 oklopol, family too 18:43:50 Fram? 18:43:56 Slereah_, google? 18:45:03 "Fram ("Forward") is a ship that was used in expeditions in the Arctic and Antarctic regions" 18:45:06 'is one? 18:46:39 aýe 18:46:41 aye* 18:46:44 Ah fuck. 18:46:50 Slereah_, why? 18:47:11 Since I can't use any partition editing on my hard drive, the "chose your partition" part of the Linux install gets awkward. 18:47:59 Is a segfault or whatever that is a physical flaw? 18:48:44 Can't use any partition editing on your hard drive?!? 18:49:10 What, are those blocks read-only or something? 18:49:14 pikhq, he got some weird issue with his partition table that crash all partition editor 18:49:17 editors' 18:49:18 * 18:49:27 AnMaster: i think you somewhat confused me with Slereah_ there, but err, have a nice trippie. 18:49:36 I tried Gparted, the partition list never loads. 18:49:50 Well, then, wipe the partition table. 18:49:50 I tried Partition Magic, and the reboot gives me an error. 18:50:07 How do I do this? 18:50:11 Slereah_, gparted can take up to 10 minutes to load 18:50:14 And will it wipe out what's on it. 18:50:14 did you wait that long? 18:50:28 I waited for quite a while. 18:50:36 I got it to work before, so I knew what to expect. 18:50:38 o 18:50:39 oklopol, why? 18:50:39 oklopol, going to oslo 18:50:43 oklopol, that was what I meant 18:50:44 Although I could give it another try. 18:51:14 AnMaster: well i just thought it was a rather weird response to my o 18:51:49 Slereah_: To wipe the partition table, dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hard_drive_here count=1 18:52:03 It is 17H51, and I am launching the "How do you want to partition the disk?" part of the Linux install. 18:52:11 And it won't necessarily wipe what's on it, it'll just make it *insanely* hard to access it. . . 18:52:15 Let's see if something happens! 18:52:28 Well then I'd better save what's left on it 18:52:32 oklopol, I thought the o was a rather weird response to my "leaving for norway tomorrow morning" 18:52:33 .. 18:52:53 Slereah_, that will wipe everything on the disk 18:52:58 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:53:02 Unless you know *exactly* what the partition table looks like (meaning: exactly how many blocks each partition is, and at which block those partitions start) 18:53:03 o is never a weird response 18:53:08 if you plan to install windows do it first 18:53:15 AnMaster: The count=1 makes it only wipe the first block of the hard disk. 18:53:22 Which is the boot sector and the partition table. 18:53:28 pikhq, yeah but do you know the details of it? 18:53:34 could Slereah_ re-create it? 18:53:37 I bet he couldn't 18:53:38 What I actually really want to do is to save the rest of what remains on the disk (the Linux part that was admin only from yesterday) 18:53:42 And njust nuke the disk 18:53:45 Because fuck it 18:53:56 There's a million partition on it and it's falling apart 18:54:01 Slereah_, if you plan to install windows too, install it first! 18:54:06 Well, then, take backups and nuke the partition table. 18:54:14 Slereah_, then linux 18:54:25 And AnMaster is right about that. 18:54:37 Windows is a bitch about installing alongside a working OS install. 18:54:43 Well, for the backup, I must first access the Linux partition with admin priviledges :o 18:54:53 root yes 18:54:59 Linux is like "Oh, you've got Windows there. Care if I resize the partition to make some room?" 18:55:31 pikhq, nah, depends on distro 18:55:44 gentoo is more like: well I expect you know what you are doing 18:55:47 * AnMaster use gentoo 18:55:54 AnMaster: Most distros are automated. 18:56:02 <3 gentoo 18:56:04 Gentoo, though, definitely assumes you know what you're doing. 18:56:06 * pikhq <3 gentoo 18:56:15 The same applies for Slackware. 18:56:19 While FreeBSD is like http://isometric.sixsided.org/_/the_power_of_freebsd/ 18:56:19 * pikhq <3 Slackware 18:56:19 indeed 18:56:32 * AnMaster loves freebsd too 18:56:49 Why don't you and freebsd geta room! 18:56:51 Never really seriously used any of the BSDs. 18:57:00 While FreeBSD is like http://isometric.sixsided.org/_/the_power_of_freebsd/ <-- eh? don't get it 18:57:06 freebsd even got a ncurses installer 18:57:10 openbsd is just pure text 18:57:17 both assumes you know what you are doing however 18:57:34 pikhq, and then what does LFS assume? 18:57:37 Except for using OS X as what amounts to a Darwin box with an insanely complex terminal display library. 18:57:57 pikhq, coca? XD 18:58:32 That you a) know what you're doing b) *really* know what you're doing c) don't care about the potential for turning into an evil genius. 18:58:35 I had an OpenBSD router for a couple of years, back when Linux didn't have working IPv6 source-based routing. Can't remember the installer at all, though; the machine in question had only a serial terminal, so I'm guessing it must've been text-oriented. 18:58:38 And, yes, Cocoa is that library. 18:58:50 pikhq, I have done hardened lfs a few times btw 18:58:57 I think c already hit me 18:59:04 I've only done normal LFS a few time. 18:59:07 Times, even. 18:59:23 * pikhq needs to get back on it, and try to make one insanely tiny Linux distro. 18:59:28 fizzie, it is just a lot of questions 18:59:31 like: 18:59:35 blah blah blah 18:59:46 Do you want to blah blah [Yn]? 18:59:50 and so on 18:59:57 Sounds familiar. 19:00:18 fizzie, oh and checkboxes for package sets 19:00:47 pikhq, use a 2.2 kernel then 19:00:58 because 2.6 or even 2.4 is too large 19:01:11 Are you familiar with the linux-tiny tree? 19:01:19 pikhq, never heard of it 19:01:26 uclinux I know 19:02:06 It's a set of patches to the 2.6 kernel which allow one to make 2.6 really, really small. . . 19:02:12 nice 19:02:17 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 19:02:19 what do the patches remove then? 19:03:12 Let's see here. . . 19:03:18 They allow you to remove sysfs. . . 19:03:49 They allow you to remove all printk calls (thereby getting rid of all the various error messages in the kernel). . . 19:04:26 Except for using OS X as what amounts to a Darwin box with an insanely complex terminal display library. 19:04:27 *g* 19:04:35 They get rid of /proc, should you wish. . . 19:04:41 hah 19:04:50 pikhq, that will break stuff like strace 19:04:57 omg 19:04:59 removing /proc... 19:05:01 BREAKS THINGS 19:05:04 yes 19:05:04 * tusho_ has a seizure 19:05:11 * AnMaster joins tusho_ 19:05:16 No more than using Linux 2.2. 19:05:16 I CAN'T BELIEVE IT 19:05:24 * tusho_ rolls around crazily 19:05:28 Busybox can handle it, BTW. 19:05:30 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGG 19:05:32 * AnMaster joins tusho_ 19:05:40 * tusho_ joins #tusho_ 19:05:40 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGg 19:06:06 Getting rid of sysfs breaks a lot of things, too. . . 19:06:33 You can't say root=/dev/hda1, because sysfs is what allows the kernel to map that without /dev/ up and running. 19:06:52 pikhq, so what do you say then? 19:06:59 For /dev/hda1? 0x0301. 19:07:09 pikhq, for /dev/sda2? 19:07:17 it being SCSI 19:07:22 or maybe SATA 19:07:28 0x0802. 19:07:40 (major and minor of the device node in question) 19:07:52 Major and minor device numbers there. So 'ls -l' in a working /dev will tell you. 19:08:00 * pikhq nods 19:09:30 ah 19:09:34 -!- tusho_ has changed nick to tusho. 19:10:43 tusho, can you /msg email for ais? 19:10:53 ais523@bham.ac.uk 19:11:06 k thanks 19:14:36 The various linux-tiny patches are currently being updated so that they can be stuck into the mainline kernel. 19:16:04 People using these patches have gotten the kernel down to... 197K. 19:16:05 :-O 19:17:39 impressive 19:19:22 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:20:30 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 19:20:38 I'm definitely going to have to play around with this. 19:21:05 Hmm. How much space would you say uclibc+busybox would take? 19:22:30 no clue 19:22:37 depend on what features? 19:24:10 * pikhq wants to see the OS be able to run in situations that DOS would find a bit confining. :p 19:24:39 pikhq: I wonder how small you could get Plan 9. 19:24:45 With rio and acme, of course. 19:24:53 Plan 9's GUI is one of the nicest things about it. 19:25:09 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:26:36 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:37:08 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:40:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:42:03 * pikhq is also curious if uclinux would be even smaller 19:42:28 * pikhq will be pleased if he can get a Unix up and running on an 8086. 19:43:51 pikhq: busybox is kinda big 19:43:55 reimplement the stuff yourself! 19:44:02 Bah. 19:44:17 If I reimplement stuff myself, then I'll end up with something that's not UNIX. 19:44:18 ;) 19:44:29 "I call it... UNIX++" 19:44:36 :p 19:45:42 pikhq: Well, okay then 19:45:46 tiny-linux + busybox 19:45:47 But not uclibc. 19:45:51 There's more minimal, I think 19:45:59 -!- GregorR has joined. 19:46:09 How big is dietlibc? 19:46:15 I think really small. 19:46:53 pikhq, linux 0.1? 19:47:02 AnMaster: That's not linux-tiny. 19:47:14 indeed 19:47:15 it is not 19:47:19 but should be pretty small 19:47:31 tusho, also what about newlib? 19:47:41 AnMaster: It also can't run anything made in the past ever. 19:47:42 And shrug. 19:47:43 It also won't run on most systems. 19:47:56 Among other things, Linux 0.1 has a hard-coded keyboard map. . . 19:47:57 Pretty sure dietlibc is the smallest. 19:47:59 true :/ 19:48:02 A Swedish keyboard map. 19:48:12 And it doesn't do this newfangled 'IDE' thing, either. 19:48:13 pikhq, oh? that's very useful :) 19:48:24 Swedish keyboard 19:48:28 it matches what I got here 19:48:29 :D 19:48:41 pikhq: Say, you should make the focus of your kernel the smallest POSIX system evar. 19:48:57 :) 19:49:03 busybox isn't POSIX is it? 19:49:14 I thought it was. 19:49:14 AnMaster: No, he'd have to reimplement just about everything. 19:49:16 But still. 19:49:25 Hm. 19:49:26 *shrug* 19:49:26 Well maybe it is. 19:49:41 I'm pretty sure it's shell isn't fully posix compatible 19:49:56 Well, if I try to make the smallest POSIX system ever, I'm going to have 'fun' in 8086 assembly. 19:51:02 pikhq: Sounds good! 19:51:12 Don't tell AnMaster though. 19:51:17 He'll want you to make the smallest POSIX system ever PORTABLE. 19:51:19 :) 19:51:29 hah 19:51:47 an OS can't be portable on that level 19:51:57 AnMaster: He'll have to do just about all of it in assembly. 19:52:04 For smallness. 19:52:05 tusho, true I guess 19:52:34 Well, the linux partition is back on /mnt/linux/ 19:52:40 How do I gain access to it? 19:52:41 pikhq, what calling convention would be the smallest? I bet passing stuff in registers would be best 19:52:51 and afk now 19:54:10 Passing stuff in registers is the standard convention on x86. 19:54:54 -!- RedDak has joined. 19:55:00 (the 8086 instruction set makes passing stuff in registers the easiest thing to do) 19:55:10 pikhq, well what about cdecl? 19:55:43 pikhq, I'm pretty sure linux pass stuff on the stack 19:55:43 Erm. 19:55:49 Sorry, I was thinking of x86_64. XD 19:55:58 pikhq, and yes I know it is for x86_64 19:56:45 Well, at this point, it almost makes me want to say 'fuck POSIX' and just make a ridiculously small OS. 19:56:59 With multitasking, of course. 19:57:10 pikhq, and network 19:57:24 If I bother to port uIP. 19:57:24 ipv6 19:57:36 (uIP: a TCP/IP stack in 8k or less) 19:57:51 ipv6 too? 19:58:01 IPv6? Fuck no. That's kinda hard to do with the 'ridiculously small' portion. 19:58:20 pikhq, another idea: would memory footprint have to be as small? 19:58:36 otherwise if it is just disk space... compressing + a loader for that 19:58:57 Memory footprint would have to be damned small, too. 19:58:57 pikhq: But the POSIX is the fun. 19:58:58 X11! 19:59:18 Not necessarily the same as on-disk, but dammit, if it can't run on an 8086, I'm not happy. :p 19:59:24 (kidding. I think.) 20:00:00 tusho, is X11 required for POSIX really!? 20:00:09 it should do x11 20:00:12 Hrm. Getting it to run on an 8086 means that the idea of a driver layer is not strictly required. 20:00:13 it'd rock 20:00:26 BIOS calls are actually useful from 16-bit code, after all. 20:00:58 pikhq, you can thunk yes 20:01:17 heck you can do that from 32-bit mode too 20:01:26 Nowhere near as easily. 20:01:51 indeed 20:02:41 Poppler is worse than sendmail when it comes to security bugs... 20:02:53 it is the pdf library used on linux most time 20:03:39 -!- Hiato has joined. 20:06:07 sendmail 20:06:08 more like 20:06:09 sendspam 20:06:13 hah 20:07:23 Good lord. Now, I'm imagining an OS which actually takes advantage of the x86's segmented architecture. 20:07:29 Yes, I am insane. 20:08:22 pikhq, how would it take advantage of it? 20:09:35 pikhq: As long as it runs x11! 20:10:00 Each process has 1 or more segments. The kernel stores each process's program counter every time the kernel is entered. . . To task switch, it just jumps into that segment. . . 20:10:19 pikhq: As long as it runs x11! 20:11:44 Also, by doing so, it actually gets protected memory from the 286. 20:12:51 And I don't have to worry about malloc. 20:13:39 And, yes, this is ridiculously simple. 20:17:51 pikhq: X11. 20:18:10 tusho: Not unless you want to write the X11 driver. 20:18:16 pikhq: Shut up. :p 20:19:56 haha 20:27:05 so 20:36:50 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:39:52 -!- Hiato has joined. 20:40:57 Who here is using XChat and is willing to answer a quick question? 20:42:36 Not me. 20:42:48 -!- Hiato1 has joined. 20:42:50 Heh, why thank you Slereah_ 20:43:03 Well, I have no xchat. 20:43:12 Naah, no worries :) 20:43:25 Hiato: yse? 20:43:27 *yes 20:43:54 tusho: how do you set it to automatically go /msg what what password for Freenode? 20:44:12 Hiato: check the server settings 20:44:14 it's Server password 20:45:51 err... right, I can't seem to find the said setting (pardon my ignorance) 20:46:32 Hiato: go into the connection list 20:46:33 find freenode 20:46:34 click edi 20:46:35 t 20:46:38 and fill in the password field 20:46:41 righty o 20:46:44 heh, thanks :) 20:47:14 -!- Hiato1 has quit (Client Quit). 20:47:26 -!- Hiato has quit ("Hello, I must be going"). 20:47:40 -!- Hiato has joined. 20:47:50 yay, thanks :) 20:49:13 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 20:49:28 -!- Hiato has joined. 21:00:42 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 21:01:27 -!- pikhq has left (?). 21:15:20 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:15:34 Well, I got my stuff out of the Linux partition. 21:15:51 Now, all there is is to squeeze out the last files from the broken HD. 21:15:54 And then, BAM! 21:15:56 POW! 21:16:11 Fuck you hard drive, you're going to hell. 21:17:05 Against all laws of physics, not a single piece of information will remain. 21:17:35 If the hard drive emitted EM waves during its life, they will disappear, just like that! 21:23:43 going to norway for 2 days cya 21:24:15 Bai 21:24:28 And remember : Get Inspector Gadget 21:24:56 -!- AnMaster has quit ("going to norway for 2 days"). 21:29:50 inspector gadget is in norway? 21:29:59 oerjan: anywhere but sweden, apparently 21:30:00 No. 21:30:12 But Anmaster never saw Inspector Gadget 21:30:13 * oerjan sidles to his underground shelter, just in case 21:30:19 He doesn't even know what it is D: 21:31:34 Also Knight Rider. 21:31:51 hm 21:32:00 * oerjan doesn't know what that is 21:32:05 DDD: 21:32:21 Come on, David Motherfucking Hasselhoff! 21:32:25 oerjan: ! 21:32:46 You... you do know what Inspector Gadget is, at least, yes? 21:33:01 Mind you, i don't actually watch TV other than when visiting family 21:33:16 What, not even in the last 20 years? 21:33:27 so, since i have small cousins, i do barely know Inspector Gadget 21:33:45 It's not like it's a recent thing or anything 21:34:20 20 years, hm almost 21:35:14 Hm. 21:35:38 On the matter of the getting-my-last-files-out, I'm still on the letter A. 21:35:45 I'm in for the whole night it seems 21:37:42 Slereah_: doodaloodaloo inspector gadget 21:38:07 tusho: The French theme song is way awesomer 21:38:12 Shut up. 21:38:39 It has words and everything! 21:38:40 Well, it has words, at least. 21:38:47 it is possible knight rider was big in norway - there appears to be no norw. wikipedia entry on it 21:38:53 *was never 21:40:22 Let me fill you in then : 21:40:26 There's a secret agent 21:40:29 And a talking car 21:40:33 SOLVING CRIMES 21:41:37 http://www.theyfightcrime.org/ 21:42:33 "He's an otherworldly ninja senator from the 'hood. She's a sarcastic snooty bounty hunter from a family of eight older brothers. They fight crime!" 21:42:40 I would vote for a ninja senator. 21:43:24 He's a one-legged bohemian master criminal with nothing left to lose. She's a hard-bitten psychic schoolgirl who dreams of becoming Elvis. They fight crime! 21:43:28 Win. 21:44:39 * oerjan was going to link to the corresponding tv-tropes trope he recalled, but thinks this may be better 21:46:05 ah there i found it too: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyFightCrime 21:46:43 (usual warnings about tvtropes addictivity apply) 21:47:02 "He's a giant robot made out of robotic lions!" 21:47:04 Holy shit 21:47:27 hahahahh 21:47:50 He's a lonely arachnophobic senator in a wheelchair. She's a time-travelling green-skinned detective from the wrong side of the tracks. They fight crime! 21:57:34 "''I Was Kidnapped By Lesbian Pirates From Outer Space'' is a complicated post-feminist statement with shifting grounds of metaphor and symbolism, aiming to deconstruct both the uber-manly hero and the Amazon Brigade. Also, there are lesbian pirates. In outer space. Sometimes they kidnap people." 21:58:28 Also he's a ninja! 21:58:53 *nunchucks noise* 21:58:53 Slereah_: Wow. 21:59:25 how much nuns could .. erm .. 22:03:09 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 22:07:21 "He's a suicidal drug-addicted vagrant on the hunt for the last specimen of a great and near-mythical creature. She's a tortured cat-loving nun with a flame-thrower. They fight crime!" 22:07:29 A nun would FIGHT CRIME, oerjan 22:09:26 but of course. there was an example on the tvtropes page. 22:13:15 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 22:13:41 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:18:26 Ah, the speed is picking up 22:18:30 I'm up to L 22:19:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 22:23:36 It are done, yay :D 22:24:54 A man proposed me the following command to nuke fucking everything : dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/... 22:25:01 Is it wise? 22:32:31 -!- oerjan has quit ("Nuking fucking everything is never wise"). 22:35:11 back 22:35:17 Slereah_: Hmm. 22:35:22 Are you sure it's all copied 22:35:46 As much as I'm going to get out of this. 22:36:38 Slereah_: OK. First make sure you have the right /dev/ entry for the HD. 22:36:45 then $ sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/THEHD 22:36:55 Slereah_: But... 22:36:57 don't you want to keep it? 22:37:01 Maybe you can leech more some other day 22:37:35 I leeched everything from /home 22:37:53 Which is pretty much all I want out of it 22:38:30 -!- jix has joined. 22:39:37 * Slereah_ turns off every HD 22:41:51 The big HD seems to be sda. 22:42:01 With the five partitions, sda1 through 5. 22:42:39 Do I just use sda as the HD name? 22:46:45 Fuck it, let's go with sda. 22:46:50 Slereah_: Yes. That's right. 22:47:00 Prepare for BURN 22:47:08 Well, I'll see you as soon as I reinstall XP. 22:47:15 Slereah_: wut 22:47:17 If the HD works, that is. 22:47:17 you have to wipe it first 22:47:21 Yeah 22:47:24 But after I wipe it 22:47:30 I will reinstall XP. 22:47:32 Slereah_: OK. But keep us updated on the wipe 22:47:33 :D 22:47:37 Also. 22:47:40 Why not just install jewnix. 22:47:45 *lewnix 22:47:53 Because it is fucking terrible 22:48:07 Slereah_: No it's... not? 22:48:13 YES IT IS D: 22:48:20 Slereah_: It DID just save all your data. 22:48:50 Yeah, and I had to ask every step of the way 22:48:52 Problem is 22:48:59 Even for everyday things 22:49:03 I don't know how to use it 22:49:09 Slereah_: But with US you have POWER! 22:49:14 Which lunix are you using anyway 22:49:20 Kubuntu 22:49:34 Slereah_: Ubuntu's a bit more, uhh, retarded. 22:49:42 What will I get once it's done? Five empty partition? 22:49:45 One empty? 22:49:50 Slereah_: Who knows?! 22:49:57 You? 22:50:00 I hoped! 22:50:07 Nope. I just know that that'll trash it. 22:50:52 I hope for one. 22:51:30 Slereah_: Anyway, if you don't install Ubuntu at the end of all of this, I'll eat you. For breakfast. 22:51:35 It shall be painful. 22:52:03 tusho: I get a new computer in roughly one month. 22:52:23 I'm not getting involved in all that with that shit 22:52:30 Slereah_: And you shall never boot into its windows, ever? First thing being putting an Ubuntu CD in? IF SO, THEN I SALUTE YOU 22:52:32 IN A SALUTATIONAL WAY 22:52:57 The new computer will be DUAL BOOTIES 22:53:07 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:53:30 Slereah_: Who will get a larger penis^H^H^H^H^Hpartition? 22:53:55 WINDOWS 22:54:07 It's only fair, since it will be the one to use it 22:54:17 You know, with games that don't run at all on Linux. 22:54:44 Slereah_: VMWare 22:54:46 ;---------; 22:55:01 Stop inventing names. 22:55:07 VMWare is not a name 22:55:15 http://www.vmware.com/ 22:56:18 I still don't know what it is 22:56:51 Slereah_: It lets you run windows in linux. And it's not like WINE, because it actually emulates a computer. (But it's not slow.) 22:56:55 So it works perfectly. Always. 22:57:13 I don't trust "It always works perfectly" 22:57:15 The most recent games probably won't run on it because of graphicscardy stuff but you can always boot into windows for those. 22:57:19 Slereah_: It actually emulates a whole CPU. 22:57:22 And all the hardware. 22:57:24 I also heard "You never have to reboot Linux" 22:57:27 IT IS LIES 22:57:28 There's not much place for it to go wrong. 22:57:37 Also. 22:57:40 Trust me tusho 22:57:47 You only have to reboot linux for kernel upgrades. But it's a lot more fuss if you don't. 22:57:49 I will find a way to make it go wrong. 22:58:06 Slereah_: no, I don't think you understand 22:58:16 it actually builds, in software, a mini-computer 22:58:18 then installs windows on it 22:59:04 Slereah_: However. 22:59:06 If you do make it go wrong. 22:59:11 They'd love to know about it - their whole business depends on it. 22:59:12 Wouldn't it be less efficient than using the actual computer 22:59:17 And indeed loads of corporations use VMWare a lot. 22:59:37 Slereah_: Yes. But most stuff should work on it, just not the most recent intensive games. 22:59:42 So, yes, you still need a dualboot. 22:59:49 But windows can have a smaller pen- partition 23:00:21 What would I do with a giant partition for Linux? 23:01:12 Slereah_: What you would do with the giant partition for Windows! 23:01:24 Install giant games on it. 23:01:32 So. Do that. 23:02:10 Also by the way, what would you recommand as a distro 23:02:21 Keeping in mind my savyness. 23:02:44 Ubuntu. 23:02:48 It's like Kubuntu, but easier. 23:02:53 'kay 23:05:05 ubuntu@ubuntu:~$ sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda 23:05:05 dd: writing to `/dev/sda': Input/output error 23:05:05 34580841+0 records in 23:05:05 34580840+0 records out 23:05:05 17705390080 bytes (18 GB) copied, 1014.53 seconds, 17.5 MB/s 23:05:07 wat 23:05:33 Slereah_: How big is the harddrive? 23:05:54 80 gigs. 23:06:00 Slereah_: O dear. 23:06:02 Well. 23:06:04 Why are you wiping it, again? 23:06:21 Because all else have failed. 23:06:37 Slereah_: OK. Well. Odd. 23:06:41 I don't know why that would happen. 23:08:00 I'm trying it again. 23:08:33 Slereah_: Godspeed. 23:08:45 A thousand second isn't very speedy. 23:09:05 Slereah_: Wait. 23:09:06 Cancel it. 23:09:08 (Ctrl-C) 23:09:15 Done. 23:09:22 Slereah_: OK: 23:09:59 Slereah_: Meh 23:10:03 Just make it go again 23:10:30 If that fails too, I'll just try the tools on the XP CD to wipe it out. 23:10:38 If that fails... Well, I dunno. 23:11:01 does anyone have an irc bot written in an esoteric programming language? 23:11:21 poiuy_qwert: yes 23:11:26 sgeo has a brainfuck+psox one 23:11:31 nice 23:11:31 (Oblig.: PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX) 23:11:57 i should finish mine 23:13:30 -!- immibis has joined. 23:14:21 * pikhq = 100% insane 23:14:36 I'm thinking of an 8086 exokernel. 23:14:44 pikhq: POSIX? 23:15:00 tusho: What part of '8086 exokernel' says POSIX to you? 23:15:08 The part saying 'AWESOME' 23:15:14 The O is in common 23:15:19 Slereah_: ? 23:15:22 oh. 23:15:22 hah 23:15:51 Also, 080 = P D: 23:16:38 And... 6 = SIX 23:16:40 DDD: 23:18:24 :DDDD 23:20:38 lol 23:21:28 Hm. Could I wipe out a hard drive with an electric toothbrush? 23:21:35 Ideas are forming 23:21:44 I got one on my desk 23:22:00 "Take that, hard drive!" 23:27:10 ubuntu@ubuntu:~$ sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda 23:27:10 dd: writing to `/dev/sda': Input/output error 23:27:10 34580841+0 records in 23:27:10 34580840+0 records out 23:27:10 17705390080 bytes (18 GB) copied, 998.844 seconds, 17.7 MB/s 23:27:19 It's toothbrush time. 23:27:23 Slereah_: There's something bad about those 18 GB! 23:27:43 I'll try the XP way. 23:30:36 No, seriously, your hard drive is probably in the midst of failure. 23:47:30 -!- puzzlet has joined. 23:48:05 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:57:34 -!- puzzlet__ has joined. 23:58:21 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 2008-07-09: 00:00:28 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:01:06 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:05:09 -!- Corun has joined. 00:14:22 ZOOOOOP 00:24:36 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. and dlte ur files. and email ths to). 01:01:11 -!- tusho has quit. 01:13:04 -!- oklopol has joined. 01:13:05 10 points to anybody who can guess what this fractal is: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1215562214-fractal.png 01:15:10 i can tell how it's generated 01:15:23 i don't know what you mean by "is" otherwise 01:15:38 ok, that'll do 01:17:08 Looks vaguely like the Sierpinski Triangle. 01:17:38 *Very* vaguely 01:17:40 pikhq: yeah, the structure this represents has some similarities to the sierpinski carpet 01:18:23 (split a square into 9 sections, then continue iteratively; omit the bottom left subsquare of the main square, and in each child, omit all those squares omitted in the parents, plus the subsquare that's related spatially to the child the same way that the child is related to its parent. Alternate red and blue for division lines) 01:18:45 not a true fractal since you stop very quickly 01:19:01 that's mostly accurate, but you're missing what this represents. It's a meaningful system. 01:19:29 it could represent a bunch of things... 01:19:41 tic-tac-toe game trees? 01:20:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:20:19 lament: bingo! 01:20:32 here's my source, if anyone's curious: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215562712.html 01:21:01 shame on me for not noticing right away, and shame on you for not starting one iteration above 01:21:47 * RodgerTheGreat shrugs 01:22:17 looks neat though, eh? 01:22:58 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:23:00 sure, now do the same for chess 01:23:22 or at least go 01:24:06 lament: buy me more ram and a couple of crays and I'll get right on it 01:24:15 RodgerTheGreat: weak 01:24:28 you only need to handle as much of the game tree as the output resolution allows 01:24:32 and by "more ram" I mean "enough ram to enumerate 2^54 (or whatever) states" 01:24:34 should be doable 01:24:40 oh, hm. 01:24:44 that's a good point 01:24:51 people draw mandelbrots despite them being infinite, after all 01:24:59 (s/infinite/actually fractal) 01:25:05 I imagine both chess and go would look pretty boring within visible range, though 01:25:08 true 01:25:16 but if you can zoom in and out 01:25:23 like in a fractal viewer 01:25:35 ...and "bookmark" specific places 01:25:48 corresponding to specific go or chess games... 01:25:59 hehehe 01:26:05 (nah, it'd still be pretty boring) 01:26:10 this looks like a job for something vaguely resembling seadragon 01:26:18 GO MICROSOFT GOONS GO 01:26:40 haha 01:27:16 i have worked on some seadragon stuff actually 01:27:26 oh, really? nifty stuff 01:27:37 i am not impressed 01:27:59 well, the TED demo was pretty cool 01:28:12 a lot of it is just eye-candy, but it's well-executed eye candy 01:29:16 have you seen deep zoom composer? 01:29:32 nope 01:30:06 (seadragon is now called deep zoom) 01:30:18 oh 01:34:12 but really 01:34:28 microsoft sucks and will screw everything up 01:34:52 -!- puzzlet__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:52:37 -!- augur has joined. 01:52:39 :O 01:52:55 WHATVE I MISSED 01:54:28 augur: a cool visualization of Tic-Tac-Toe: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1215562214-fractal.png 02:32:06 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:09:35 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 03:18:59 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 03:22:16 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:15:03 -!- cherez has quit ("Leaving."). 05:15:14 -!- cherez has joined. 05:22:10 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 07:15:51 -!- Polar has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:16:49 -!- Polar has joined. 07:17:37 -!- Polar| has joined. 07:18:28 -!- Polar has quit (Connection reset by peer). 07:56:55 -!- nokmar has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:52:21 -!- Hiato has joined. 09:17:00 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 09:30:34 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 09:30:38 Dudes. 09:30:51 I tried to reinstall Windows XP. 09:31:00 Then my DVD player fucking ATE THE CD 09:31:06 Holy shit 09:46:26 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:48:50 -!- Polar| has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:53:23 -!- Polar| has joined. 09:54:34 -!- Polar| has quit (No route to host). 09:54:59 -!- Polar has joined. 09:55:49 -!- nokmar has quit ("insert quit message here"). 09:56:38 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 09:58:16 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:01:47 -!- Polar has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:07:30 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers4/Om%20nom%20nom.jpg 10:07:31 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers4/Om%20nom%20nom%20XP.jpg 10:07:34 OM NOM NOM 10:15:54 -!- Polar has joined. 10:17:29 -!- Polar has quit (Network is unreachable). 10:19:52 -!- Polar has joined. 11:19:02 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 11:19:02 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:52:10 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:52:22 -!- puzzlet has joined. 11:56:59 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:56:59 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:03:07 -!- Corun has joined. 12:14:37 -!- augur has joined. 12:24:22 -!- Hiato has joined. 12:40:08 -!- timotiis has joined. 12:49:07 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:59:41 -!- sebbu2 has quit (No route to host). 13:07:53 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 13:11:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:12:52 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 13:20:03 how is that tic tac toe visualization done actually? 13:20:07 i mean 13:20:18 what do the colors represent exactly? 13:20:24 victories and losses 13:20:38 how come every bottom-left one is black? 13:20:43 shouldn't it be symmetric? 13:21:20 because this displays from the second iteration probably because I didn't unroll my recursion properly 13:21:32 it was a quick hack 13:22:39 so one move has already been made there? 13:22:58 yes 13:23:41 what was that move? 13:24:27 bottom left, clearly 13:24:41 oh, right xD 13:25:02 didn't actually give it absolutely any thought 13:30:02 I think I'm going to try rewriting it so that you can zoom through the entire fractal 13:30:20 the game tree itself should only take up a few megabytes 13:30:45 -!- Hiato has joined. 13:30:58 and I can precalculate it in about two seconds, so the only limiting factor is drawing speed 14:04:12 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:09:29 -!- RedDak has joined. 14:16:52 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:28:54 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:37:35 -!- Corun has joined. 15:08:09 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:09:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:14:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:33:37 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:36:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:13:14 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:19:13 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:00:42 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 17:01:15 -!- tusho has joined. 17:01:26 hi ais523 17:01:30 hi tusho 17:01:35 i won 17:01:43 pretty sure 17:01:50 tusho: well, if you're going to join after me and have the text on the clipboard, there's no point in playing really 17:01:57 that's true. 17:02:01 i'll stop clipboarding it 17:02:13 I reckon you'll still win then, but it'll make it fairer 17:02:23 the point is that I don't really have to react 17:02:24 you do 17:03:40 anyway, I'll only be here for another 2 hours or so 17:03:59 ah, ok why? 17:04:03 you weren't here yesterday too 17:04:07 have to get home by 8 17:04:12 OK 17:04:13 and yesterday I didn't get to sleep until 10am 17:04:23 not because I was doing anything, just because my sleep patterns went haywire 17:04:33 and this meant that I didn't wake up until pretty late 17:04:48 :) 17:06:17 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:06:34 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:14:36 ais523: regarding intercal lessons, i'm a taker. 17:14:47 oklopol: sounds good 17:15:36 do you have an INTERCAL compiler or interpreter on you? 17:15:47 ais523: he meant real-life ones, actually 17:15:51 :) 17:15:57 (remembered from yesterday/few days ago) 17:16:11 tusho: I remembered that too, but isn't it possible that oklopol's happy to learn either way? 17:16:15 possibly, yes 17:16:16 :P 17:16:24 i'd so go to take INTERCAL lessons from ais523, though 17:16:28 i'm happy with either way 17:16:38 well, over IRC's likely easier to organise 17:16:43 and saves on plane fares 17:16:43 and no, i don't have anything intercal related on this comp 17:16:50 ais523: i don't need a plane! 17:16:52 also i don't have anything unix related on this comp 17:16:55 oklopol: what OS does it run? 17:16:58 is that a prob? 17:16:59 win 17:17:00 dows 17:17:06 oklopol: not necessarily a problem 17:17:16 I do maintain C-INTERCAL on Windows 17:17:25 but you have to compile from sources 17:17:27 which is a pain 17:17:37 I can step you through that if you like, though 17:18:00 you probably will have to, in case you want me to get it 17:18:32 i'm more the plug-n-play type 17:18:33 yes, it'll be hard to learn INTERCAL with no way to run it 17:18:37 indeed 17:18:51 well, you need to install a C compiler first 17:18:53 do you have one already? 17:19:15 not sure 17:19:19 i'll check 17:19:37 try opening up a command prompt (start|run then type cmd and return) and typing in the command gcc 17:19:52 i don't have gcc 17:20:13 well, I used the DJGPP version, available from http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/zip-picker.html 17:20:35 Though personally, I'd recommend Mingw or Cygwin. 17:20:47 pikhq: yes, I know they're better 17:20:52 I should get around to installing cygwin some time 17:20:53 pikhq: c-intercal can run natively 17:20:53 so. 17:20:55 hmm 17:20:59 also, cygwin is like slow as hell 17:21:00 i have cygwin 17:21:00 mingw is good 17:21:09 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:21:10 oklopol: probably best to do it natively 17:21:11 I'd say 17:21:16 oklopol: try opening up a cygwin prompt and typing gcc in that 17:21:37 bash: gcc: command not foudn 17:21:45 it typoed, silly prompt. 17:21:46 yeah, just install djgpp 17:22:59 oklopol: I suggest you use the defaults for everything on the webpage I linked 17:23:32 FTP Site: ftp://ftp.delorie.com/pub/djgpp/current/ <<< so, help the retard, i click this shiny link, right? 17:23:38 no 17:23:40 scroll down 17:23:46 and you'll see links to a bunch of zipfiles 17:23:46 heh, okay 17:23:52 unzip them all into the same directory 17:23:54 it doesn't matter where 17:23:59 except it can't be called /dev 17:24:00 oh, i see. 17:25:25 incidentally, what version of Windows are you running? 17:25:34 vista 17:25:43 ah, could be interesting 17:25:45 hmm.... 17:25:48 but I think it'll work 17:25:55 as long as you put everything into your documents area 17:25:58 i wonder if the default was xp/2000 or smth 17:26:02 so it doesn't trigger UAC every 5 minutes 17:26:10 oklopol: DJGPP was never officially ported to Vista 17:26:23 but it works, I think, as long as you avoid certain filenames 17:26:30 such as patch.exe doesn't work unless renamed to something else 17:26:40 because Vista assumes it's an installer, and so forgets its command-line arguments 17:27:08 because Vista assumes it's an installer, and so forgets its command-line arguments 17:27:08 WJW 17:27:21 tusho: what's that an abbrev for? 17:27:24 Wow Just Wow 17:29:07 oklopol: unzipped yet? 17:29:34 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 17:30:13 just the first two 17:30:28 the rest of this one, and then 5 to go 17:30:31 ok 17:31:09 i'm a bit sceptic, in my experience things don't work unless you can install them with a oneliner or a double-click 17:31:16 but we'll see 17:31:29 oklopol: in my experience the things that need double-clicks are the things that normally fail 17:31:36 at least with the big mess installs they can be fixed by hand 17:31:44 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:31:49 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:32:20 never met an msi that didn't manage to install the program correctly 17:32:43 oklopol: no, but I /have/ met msis that messed up all the other programs on my computer at the time 17:33:20 well, you've probably installed about ten times more stuff than me. 17:33:32 probably written about infinity times more installers than you, too 17:33:37 :D 17:33:48 i've made a few installers in vb! 17:34:15 wow 17:34:17 that means ... 17:34:23 i think installing is an ugly concept 17:34:23 ais523 has made INFINITE installers! 17:34:26 :D 17:34:31 well, "written" 17:34:38 in vb, you click "make installer" 17:34:49 and there's a wizard 17:36:24 now 4 to go 17:36:24 In GNU-land, it's implicit when you use Autotools. 17:36:24 :) 17:36:26 well, arguably they are the installer 17:36:30 in python land, you don't install 17:36:33 -!- spxza has joined. 17:36:34 you just run 17:36:44 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:37:14 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 17:37:47 well, yes, that's pretty much how DJGPP works, except you have to set a couple of environment variables first, then you can just run 17:37:51 except there are a lot of binaries involved 17:38:01 because it has to pretend to be UNIX sufficiently well that gcc will run 17:39:18 after a minute i should have everything 17:39:40 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:40:34 okay, i think i have them all 17:40:48 oklopol: ok 17:41:00 everything unzipped into the same directory? 17:41:05 i.e. you have one bin subdirectory 17:41:14 yeah 17:41:19 ok 17:41:33 now you need to set two environment variables 17:41:48 Version information is in manifest/*.ver within each zip. Contents 17:41:48 are in manifest/*.mft in each zip. 17:41:53 probably making a shortcut's easiest 17:41:54 whaat 17:41:55 hmm 17:41:56 okay 17:41:59 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:41:59 what are those? 17:42:14 oklopol: basically they're like system-wide variables that tell your computer how to do things 17:42:19 ais523: i mean 17:42:23 what vars? 17:42:25 what's the name of the dir you installed into? 17:42:29 oklopol: PATH and DJDIR 17:42:35 wugupol. hoped you wouldn't ask 17:42:52 hmmhmm 17:42:52 oklopol: you need the full path, starting with c:\ 17:43:03 i thought this would be a temporary store 17:43:14 oklopol: well, you can move it anywhere you like 17:43:18 well okay, i'll add, djdir is what exactly? 17:43:29 djdir points to the djgpp.env file 17:43:34 whereever it unpacked to 17:43:45 and you need to add the bin subdir to PATH 17:44:14 -!- tritonio_ has joined. 17:44:31 oklopol: done? 17:44:37 hello 17:44:44 hi tritonio_ 17:44:48 no, just got to the environment variables thingie 17:45:03 ok, I forgot how inaccessible it was in Windows for a while, it's probably even harder to find in Vista 17:45:13 i need to add to PATH the dir i unzipped the stuff to? 17:45:21 -!- tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:45:23 oklopol: no, its bin subdirectory 17:45:28 ah, right 17:45:40 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 17:45:42 that's basically the standard UNIX trick, you have a subdir called bin and put everything there to avoid having to change the PATH 17:45:43 okay, done 17:45:58 oki 17:45:59 oklopol: ok, try opening up a command prompt and running the command go32-v2 17:46:08 if it works, then the install worked 17:46:18 it should do nothing but print out a few lines of information and exit 17:46:26 worked 17:46:27 and the information's irrelevant unless it's "bad command or filename" 17:46:39 oklopol: great! Now let's see if the C-INTERCAL install works 17:46:53 okay 17:47:02 awaiting orders. 17:47:09 http://www.intercal.ukfsn.org/download/ick-0-28.tgz 17:47:19 download that, again anywhere you like 17:47:47 done 17:48:06 you need to extract it 17:48:09 done 17:48:17 ok, then open up a command prompt 17:48:20 done 17:48:20 and cd into the resulting directory 17:48:30 done 17:48:38 then makeick.bat 17:48:49 hmm... that's the first time anyone's tried to run that script except me 17:48:51 I hope it works... 17:48:57 oh 17:49:08 oklopol: is it working? 17:49:10 gcc.exe: environment variable DJGPP not defined 17:49:10 gcc.exe: environment variable DJGPP not defined 17:49:10 gcc.exe: environment variable DJGPP not defined 17:49:10 gcc.exe: environment variable DJGPP not defined 17:49:13 ... 17:49:22 ugh 17:49:35 i didn't add djdir either 17:49:36 it's set it to the same thing as DJDIR 17:49:42 s/it's// 17:49:44 so... that might be the prob 17:49:48 yep 17:50:03 i'll add, wait a mo 17:51:10 djdir didn't actually exist before, should it have? 17:51:14 no 17:51:28 gives same errors 17:51:40 did you add DJGPP as well? 17:51:41 do i add the env var djgpp or smth? 17:51:43 nope. 17:51:49 yes, same target as DJDIR 17:52:34 about a million more errors now :P 17:52:41 ugh 17:52:43 what are the first few? 17:52:56 it sounds like I may have to do a few fixes to the Windows build system... 17:53:00 too many to see, unless you tell me how to limit how much results it shows. 17:53:15 i can give a few from the middle 17:53:19 ok 17:53:25 I may be able to guess based on those 17:53:34 feh2.c:1919: warning: comparison between pointer and integer 17:53:37 feh2.c:1919: warning: comparison between pointer and integer 17:53:40 feh2.c:1936: error: 'SUB' undeclared (first use in this function) 17:53:41 -!- timotiis has joined. 17:53:43 feh2.c:1936: warning: comparison between pointer and integer 17:53:44 hmm... maybe a missing header-file 17:53:52 hmm 17:54:01 try hitting pause just after you start 17:54:05 hmm 17:54:05 it's a rarely-used key on the ketboard 17:54:06 k 17:54:10 that might get the first few 17:55:01 Trying to build parsers and lexers (if this fails, e.g. if you do not 17:55:04 have bison/flex, this will produce errors but the compiler will build 17:55:07 anyway using prebuilt versions)... 17:55:08 those ones are fine 17:55:10 'bison' is not recognized as an internal or external command, 17:55:11 oh 17:55:15 then you should get a couple of errors 17:55:17 about bison and flex 17:55:19 those are fine 17:55:20 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:55:21 yeah 17:55:31 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:55:45 then what? 17:55:57 you can unpause by pressing a key other than pause and then repause by pressing pause again 17:56:15 idiotism.c:11:20: error: parser.h: No such file or directory (ENOENT) 17:56:18 idiotism.c: In function 'optimize_pass1': 17:56:21 idiotism.c:39: error: 'MINGLE' undeclared (first use in this function) 17:56:24 idiotism.c:39: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once 17:56:26 ok, that's what's causing the problems 17:56:27 idiotism.c:39: error: for each function it appears in.) 17:56:32 let me think how to fix it 17:56:37 okily dokily. 17:56:57 oklopol: open up makeick.bat in an editor 17:57:17 and at the end of the set CFLAGS= line, write 17:57:21 -I./src 17:57:23 done 17:57:28 i mean 17:57:30 the opening. 17:57:31 then try running again 17:57:40 that's a capital I by the way 17:58:21 yeah i have a good font 17:58:45 erroooooors 17:58:56 ok, first few this time? 17:58:57 the same? 17:59:29 i failed the pause. wait a mo.. 17:59:54 idiotism.c:11:20: error: parser.h: No such file or directory (ENOENT) 17:59:56 idiotism.c: In function 'optimize_pass1': 17:59:58 same ones 17:59:59 idiotism.c:39: error: 'MINGLE' undeclared (first use in this function) 18:00:04 oklopol: ah, try -I ./../src 18:00:19 actually, wait 18:00:25 how many files are in the temp subdir 18:00:28 of the INTERCAL directory? 18:00:32 does it have the .h files in? 18:00:36 hmm 18:00:45 temp has a lot of stuff 18:00:48 it should do 18:00:52 does it have parser.h? 18:01:15 no 18:01:21 parser.c and parser.o, but no .h 18:01:33 also .y is there 18:01:38 i don't even know what that is 18:01:48 how did the .h not end up there? 18:01:57 http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/temp/parser.h 18:01:58 quite hard to say 18:02:27 try downloading that and putting it there 18:02:30 and then trying again 18:02:40 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:02:46 yeah, wait a bit 18:03:14 cc1.exe: out of memory allocating 1448 bytes after a total of 25243592 bytes 18:03:14 lex.yy.c:2350: warning: 'yyunput' defined but not used 18:03:18 are these okay? 18:03:35 Not the first one... 18:03:48 doesn't sound like it, no 18:04:01 the second one's ok 18:04:10 the first one is pretty mysterious, though 18:04:22 was that when it was compiling idiotism.c, by any chance? 18:04:40 right after "Compiling..." 18:04:47 ah, of course 18:04:49 it only happened once? 18:04:53 then i paused 18:05:00 ah, unpause then 18:05:16 I think I know how to fix the out-of-memory by simplifying stuff 18:05:35 cc1.exe: out of memory allocating 1448 bytes after a total of 25243592 bytes 18:05:38 lex.yy.c:2350: warning: 'yyunput' defined but not used 18:05:41 cesspool.c: In function 'ick_pin': 18:05:44 cesspool.c:153: warning: the address of 'buf' will never be NULL 18:05:47 gcc.exe: CFLAGS$: No such file or directory (ENOENT) 18:05:50 cset-l.c:3: error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before '-' t 18:05:53 oken 18:05:56 gcc.exe: idiotism.o: No such file or directory (ENOENT) 18:05:59 The system cannot find the file specified. 18:06:02 1 file(s) copied. 18:06:05 Compiling..., then this, then the copy messages 18:06:12 and it ends 18:06:29 try backing up src/idiotism.oil, then deleting most of the lines in it and trying again 18:06:29 that's a file full of optimiser idioms, so you can delete any of the lines in it and it'll still work 18:06:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:06:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:07:12 sorry, connection trouble 18:07:16 [Wed Jul 9 2008] [18:05:15] I think I know how to fix the out-of-memory by simplifying stuff 18:07:18 [Wed Jul 9 2008] [18:05:47] try backing up src/idiotism.oil, then deleting most of the lines in it and trying again 18:07:21 [Wed Jul 9 2008] [18:06:02] that's a file full of optimiser idioms, so you can delete any of the lines in it and it'll still work 18:07:39 except you probably want to put [oklopol] or something like that at the start so it has at least one section 18:08:15 or the compiler'll get confused 18:08:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:08:19 can i just scrape it? 18:08:20 hmm 18:08:22 bye bye 18:08:27 he'll be back. 18:08:31 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:08:31 o rly 18:08:37 can i just scrape the whole file? 18:08:45 empty it 18:08:57 and put [oklopol] in the beginning 18:08:59 oklopol: I think it may get confused if it doesn't have at least one line 18:09:03 try just one section line and one idiom 18:09:23 [minglefold] 18:09:23 (#{1}1$#{1}2)->(#{mingle(x1,x2)}0) 18:09:28 there, that's a minimal OIL file 18:09:34 I picked the most useful idiom from it, too 18:09:40 [oritself] 18:09:40 (_1|_1)->(_1) 18:09:45 this is the contents now 18:09:48 is that k? 18:09:49 oklopol: that one's less useful, but will work too 18:09:53 that's fine 18:09:56 now try recompiling 18:09:57 okay 18:10:09 the next version of C-INTERCAL will have an automatic workaround for that sort of thing, by the way 18:10:14 Debian reported the out-of-memory to me 18:10:27 apparently one of their build machines doesn't have enough memory to process idiotism.c by default 18:10:31 it says "I'm confused, idiotism.oil seems a bit empty." now, and fails to install 18:10:38 really? 18:10:42 well no 18:10:43 I don't remember writing that message anywhere 18:10:46 :P 18:10:55 just joking to pass the time 18:11:01 hmm 18:11:02 almost 18:11:07 not outta mem, but 18:11:09 ais523: C-INTERCAL should have a 'modern messages' mode 18:11:13 where all error messages are of the form: 18:11:16 I'm confused, X. 18:11:25 cesspool.c: In function 'ick_pin': 18:11:28 cesspool.c:153: warning: the address of 'buf' will never be NULL 18:11:29 "I'm confused, you seem to have a COME FROM where I didn't expect one..." 18:11:31 gcc.exe: CFLAGS$: No such file or directory (ENOENT) 18:11:34 cset-l.c:3: error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before '-' t 18:11:37 oken 18:11:40 eroror. 18:12:00 the CFLAGS$ thing is really confusing 18:12:15 as for the cesspool.c warning, I've never seen that one 18:12:31 but I can understand that it may just be there because they improved the compiler 18:12:51 oklopol: heh, there's a typo in makeick.bat 18:12:53 so... err... what do i do? 18:12:58 is that so 18:13:02 where it says FLAGS$ change that to FLAGS% 18:13:06 okay 18:13:30 (Konversation stripped the %C at the start of each of those) 18:13:37 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 18:13:47 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Connection reset by peer). 18:13:57 oklopol: and the other error is another typo 18:14:09 ick-clc_cset_latin1 should be ick_clc_set_latin1 18:14:13 hmm... I thought I tested this file 18:14:23 maybe some last minute changes snuck in after I tested it... 18:14:31 -!- spxza has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:14:49 same error 18:14:55 which one? 18:14:56 oklopol: change it to %CFLAGS^ 18:14:57 err 18:15:00 %CFLAGS% 18:15:02 %CFLAGS% 18:15:11 instead of %CFLAGS$ 18:15:23 it's exactly as the lines before and after it now 18:15:27 good 18:15:32 the never be null warning isn't a problem, I think 18:15:37 unless it was the last one, hard to say as they're all identical now 18:15:39 hmm 18:16:36 heh, the never-be-null warning is warning me that my assert is always true 18:16:58 errors this time? 18:19:32 err 18:19:41 20:14… oklopol: same error 18:19:46 which one? 18:19:50 you haven't given me instructions after that 18:19:52 err 18:20:04 20:11… oklopol: cset-l.c:3: error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before '-' t 18:20:04 20:11… oklopol: oken 18:20:24 oklopol: did you fix "ick-clc_cset_latin1 should be ick_clc_set_latin1" 18:20:26 it's another typo 18:20:36 in makeick.bat 18:21:10 well no i didn't 18:21:11 so wait 18:21:30 oklopol: you'll get credit for finding the bugs in the next release... 18:21:39 although I was planning to write a script to generate makeick.bat automatically 18:21:46 so I don't have to do it by hand every time and make typos 18:22:08 "ick-clc_cset_latin1 should be ick_clc_set_latin1" 18:22:09 hmm 18:22:12 set or cset? 18:22:15 cset 18:22:17 sorry 18:22:55 i think it worked 18:23:06 oklopol: try running bin/ick -@ 18:23:16 if that produces a usage message, it worked 18:23:32 it did 18:23:37 yay! 18:23:43 now on to the actual INTERCAL 18:23:44 so i have intercal now? 18:23:48 oh :) 18:23:49 yep 18:23:55 i do, so cool 18:24:03 probably best to start with a NOP 18:24:06 how do the lessons work, were you leaving soon? 18:24:11 oklopol: I am leaving soon 18:24:15 how soon? 18:24:16 so I'll just start until I have to leave 18:24:21 oklopol: about 20 minutes 18:24:25 okay. 18:24:30 let's see... 18:24:38 INTERCAL's an imperative language 18:24:39 do you lessonize on #eso? 18:24:43 i know that much 18:24:49 oklopol: I was going to 18:24:54 although I can start a new channel if you like 18:25:01 do it here 18:25:04 i'd like to dig it up in the logs 18:25:07 yes 18:25:20 ok, so you write all the commands in sequence 18:25:20 yeah here is good 18:25:25 which is already more normal than befunge 18:25:35 all statements start with a "statement identifier" 18:25:47 okay 18:25:48 that marks where one statement starts and the previous statement ends 18:25:51 sort of like a semicolon in C 18:25:58 the most common statement identifier is DO 18:26:02 you can use PLEASE as well 18:26:12 and you need to have about one PLEASE for every three DOs on average 18:26:17 or the program won't compile 18:26:18 okay 18:26:30 the GIVE UP command ends the program 18:26:38 so DO GIVE UP is the shortest non-erroring INTERCAL program 18:26:41 actually DOGIVEUP 18:26:47 because the spaces are optional 18:26:49 * oklopol tries 18:26:55 ...how do i compile? 18:27:00 the file will need to have a .i extension so it's treated as INTERCAL 18:27:06 then just ick filename.i 18:27:19 where you need to give the path to ick, either that or add it to your PATH 18:27:23 is it case sensitive? 18:27:28 oklopol: not on Windows 18:27:35 i mean 18:27:36 oh, INTERCAL itself is 18:27:38 do give up 18:27:43 it has to be allcaps 18:27:55 there's only one lowercase letter in INTERCAL, and it's part of an operator 18:28:13 ick nop.i seems to crash 18:28:18 in what way? 18:28:22 hangs 18:28:27 so doesn't really crash 18:28:29 ok, that's strange 18:28:36 try unhanging it with control-C 18:28:41 and if that fails, control-break 18:28:44 actually, do control-break first 18:28:52 because sometimes on windows control-C exits your DOS prompt 18:29:09 also, check to see if it's hanging because a UAC prompt popped up behind the window you're in 18:29:22 ctrl-c is fine 18:29:22 that shouldn't have triggered one, but you never know... 18:29:34 didn't trigger one 18:29:51 try ick -o nop.i 18:29:55 that dumps the output to stdout 18:29:59 so you can see where it hangs 18:30:06 hangs. 18:30:11 ugh 18:30:14 try ick -d nop.i 18:30:19 :P 18:30:21 that should spurt out debug info from the parser 18:30:26 see if it reaches that stage 18:30:33 or if anything makes ick hang 18:30:37 infloops at parsing i think 18:30:45 what, after or before the parse? 18:30:46 lotsa output 18:30:52 pages after pages of stuff 18:30:55 -d 18:30:56 that's wrong 18:31:05 oklopol: try putting a newline at the end of your program 18:31:12 you may have hit a known bug I forgot about 18:31:17 i think i have already 18:31:50 ok, then two newlines 18:32:41 Entering state 1 18:32:44 Reading a token: lexer: returning token 292 18:32:47 Next token is token PLEASE () 18:32:50 Shifting token error () 18:32:53 Entering state 3 18:32:56 Reducing stack by rule 7 (line 189): 18:32:59 $1 = token error () 18:33:02 lexer: returning token 292 18:33:05 -> $$ = nterm command () 18:33:07 Stack now 0 1 18:33:11 Entering state 7 18:33:14 Reducing stack by rule 2 (line 169): 18:33:17 $1 = nterm program () 18:33:20 $2 = nterm command () 18:33:23 -> $$ = nterm program () 18:33:26 Stack now 0 18:33:27 this repeats, no matter how many newlines. 18:33:32 ok 18:33:49 your program is just PLEASE GIVE UP 18:34:00 DO GIVE UP actually 18:34:07 ok, let me see if it works over here 18:34:19 nope, infiniloop for me too... 18:34:19 k 18:34:30 actually no, it worked 18:34:31 it was just slow 18:34:35 oh. 18:34:55 oklopol: ah, did you write your program in Notepad? 18:35:06 edit.exe actually 18:35:12 i don't have a hex editor 18:35:17 I was wondering if it had a BOM that was screwing things up 18:35:23 BOM? 18:35:37 oklopol: binary at the start of a text file that Notepad adds to say what format a file's in 18:35:46 notepad does no such thing 18:36:01 yes it does 18:36:06 it's just invisible 18:36:07 err, no it does not. 18:36:12 invisible? 18:36:21 yep, because it encodes a zero-width space 18:36:38 so if you load the file as a text file, you can't see the difference 18:36:40 let's call your assertion 18:36:44 * oklopol opens python 18:36:59 make sure there's at least one non-ASCII character in the file 18:37:18 oklopol: python handles it 18:37:18 I believe 18:37:23 so that won't help 18:37:31 >>> open("C:\\Users\\oklopol\\intercool\\ick-0.28\\bin\\nop.i","rb").read() 18:37:31 'PLEASE GIVE UP' 18:37:32 PHP doesn't, and that screwed up MediaWiki once 18:37:38 oklopol: python handles it 18:37:49 the trick is to compare the file's size as reported by dir with a count of the characters 18:37:57 wtf, doesn't show weird space chard in __repr__? 18:38:02 hmm... let me add a BOM by hand to my nop.i and see what happens 18:38:05 if so, i'm switching off python 18:38:15 *characters 18:38:17 oklopol: it does, 18:38:21 but python's file reading handles it 18:38:23 i believe 18:38:28 anyway 18:38:28 that's retarded 18:38:29 you used edit.com 18:38:30 so. 18:38:32 and no, it's not 18:38:35 it's called 18:38:37 "HANDLING UNICODE PROPERLY" 18:38:48 how do i actually open a file then? 18:38:56 that is opening a file. 18:39:00 unicode support is a feature 18:39:01 sheesh 18:39:15 :| 18:39:26 well, my BOM by hand went and printed out (null) in a comment where it should have printed out the source code 18:39:47 which means that a null-pointer's being derefed somewhere 18:40:01 not sure if a BOM's the problem, though 18:40:03 probably it isn't 18:40:07 oklopol: try one of the example programs 18:40:13 e.g. ick pit/primes.i 18:40:29 does that work or does it infiniloop? 18:40:46 yeah infoops 18:40:56 same parser error 18:41:12 * ais523 wonders why the parser's doing that 18:41:31 Reading a token: lexer: returning token 292 18:41:34 tusho: is there any way to open a file without it having been preprocessed? 18:41:36 does it say that inside the infinite loop? 18:41:38 or just before it? 18:41:41 i mean, get the binary data 18:41:43 oklopol: i don't think you understand 18:41:48 unicode support is a good thing 18:41:49 oklopol! 18:41:51 im in europe! 18:41:59 wanting to turn it off is, well 18:41:59 you don't 18:42:01 ais523: says it all the time 18:42:05 lets get together and make out 18:42:22 so the lexer's returning an infinite number of token 292 for some reason 18:42:28 augur: i'll think about it 18:42:40 :3 18:42:44 augur: where in europe 18:42:49 tusho: no, it's not a good thing 18:42:57 * ais523 looks up what 292 means 18:42:58 nuremberg. i was in london last week 18:42:59 oklopol: #python 18:43:08 why tusho? did you want me to come up and make you a man? :p 18:43:17 augur: just curious, sheesh 18:43:17 :p 18:43:18 tusho: i want to see if there's a BOM, that thing prevents me from doing that 18:43:18 DO, apparently 18:43:21 PLEASE is 293 18:43:22 (And not in a bi-curious sense) 18:43:26 oklopol: #python 18:43:29 why? 18:43:29 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Connection timed out). 18:43:30 oklopol: you know that parser.h was missing? 18:43:35 ::makes tusho a man:: 18:43:40 ais523: wha? 18:43:44 oklopol: #python is generally a better channel for python than #esoteric 18:43:44 try downloading http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/temp/parser.c too 18:43:56 maybe the versions of parser.c and parser.h you got don't match for some bizarre reason 18:44:02 yes, that's what happend 18:44:03 tusho: i'm sure they'll agree with you, i don't see the point. 18:44:11 you got parser.c from C-INTERCAL 0.28 18:44:15 oklopol: actually pythoners generally disagree with me 18:44:16 so that's bull 18:44:19 but I gave you parser.h from C-INTERCAL 0.29 by mistake 18:44:21 i believe it's good to have unicode support that can't be turned off for some reason. 18:44:28 so all the tokens are wrong... 18:44:29 oklopol: #python 18:44:37 tusho: nah. 18:44:40 so whats be goin on since i vanished a few days ago? anything interesting? 18:44:44 oklopol: ok then stop whining about it 18:44:51 augur: well, I'm teaching oklopol INTERCAL 18:44:58 oh joy 18:45:01 tusho: no. 18:45:03 and teaching myself how it's a good thing if the header file matches the file it's referencing 18:45:21 oklopol: actually, I'll dig out the C-INTERCAL 0.28 version of parser.h 18:45:28 okay. 18:45:30 probably easier than it mismatching everything else in 0.29 18:46:49 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1066874 18:47:25 i'll just paste that in parser.h and retry makeick? 18:47:39 yep 18:48:31 that has PLEASE=292 like it should be 18:49:13 yay 18:49:16 it did nothing! 18:49:32 so 18:49:36 seems to work now 18:49:37 what, it compiled, and you ran the result, and nothing happened? 18:49:47 I have to go very soon 18:49:55 but as another test try writing DO READ OUT #123 18:49:59 before the DO GIVE UP line 18:50:12 and running the result of that 18:50:14 you should get some output 18:51:02 okay 18:51:39 * ais523 has to go in about 3 minutes 18:51:51 CXXIII 18:51:52 ICL633I PROGRAM FELL OFF THE EDGE 18:51:52 ON THE WAY TO THE NEW WORLD 18:51:52 CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT 18:52:00 oklopol: that means you missed the GIVE UP line 18:52:00 resubnit 18:52:05 anyway, that's the correct output 18:52:07 what does that mean 18:52:17 it's a typo for resubmit that was originally made in 1972 18:52:21 and has been preserved ever since 18:52:24 heh :P 18:52:34 anyway, I'll continue this some other time 18:52:37 maybe tomorrow? 18:52:44 I should be able to stay longer then, too 18:52:48 perhaps. 18:52:52 ok, bye 18:52:56 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1""). 18:52:57 i should be available pretty much 24/7 18:52:59 bye 18:54:48 so, tusho, in the unicode world, you don't store arbitrary raw binary data anymore, but only unicode stuff? 18:54:53 even with stuff like pictures 18:55:22 fine by me, although i don't see the point; still i'd say it's quite weird not letting you at least *read* arbitrary data. 18:57:39 -!- GregorR has joined. 18:57:42 i don't really know anything about unicode, and i don't really care at all, so no need to answer. 19:05:17 -!- Corun has joined. 19:06:28 -!- Corun has quit (Success). 19:06:36 -!- Corun_ has joined. 19:06:44 -!- Corun_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:07:58 lalala 19:09:15 lololol 19:11:18 -!- Corun has joined. 19:21:34 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 19:22:41 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:26:02 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:32:39 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:32:43 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:32:43 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:32:56 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:34:57 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 19:35:00 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:35:32 back 19:36:46 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:37:33 -!- timotiis has joined. 19:41:10 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:44:37 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:46:52 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 19:50:47 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:52:28 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 19:54:36 ::rapes tusho:: 19:54:42 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:59:01 -!- Corun_ has joined. 19:59:11 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:00:40 augur is such a bad dood 20:00:43 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:00:55 im so bad 20:00:59 oh man am i bad 20:01:22 i just type-raped a 13 year old. thats how bad i am. oh yes. 20:01:51 imaginary rape is the baddest thing on all the internets. im so bad ive done the baddest thing on all the internets! 20:02:12 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:03:01 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 20:03:01 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:03:47 o yeah i' is. 20:05:45 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:05:45 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:25:23 -!- Corun_ has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 20:35:38 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 20:36:24 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:45:34 -!- Corun_ has joined. 21:08:58 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:56:17 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 21:59:41 -!- atrapado has joined. 22:12:34 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:13:43 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 22:31:17 -!- tusho has joined. 22:31:27 what i miss. 22:32:21 rape 22:32:37 lament: by augur? 22:32:52 ofcourse. 22:32:55 i raped you. 22:33:02 you missed it because i drugged you to make you more complacent. 22:33:11 roofies mess with your memory 22:33:34 augur: no, but there were people in the room and it highlighted it in a box 22:33:41 i don't want someone to see ::rapes tusho::, strangely 22:33:52 that's why I disconnected 22:33:53 :p 22:33:59 ::rapes you again:: 22:34:23 12:01:22 i just type-raped a 13 year old. thats how bad i am. oh yes. 22:34:24 12 22:34:35 awesome. 22:34:40 im even badder. 22:34:46 ::really bad:: 22:35:25 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 22:59:07 ::rapes augur:: 22:59:10 JUST GOTTA BE DIFFERENt 22:59:12 ALWAYS REINVENTING MYSELF 22:59:17 ::enjoys it: 22:59:39 o 22:59:55 klpl. 23:01:12 augur: do you want to look at the rather nifty objective-c-and-smalltalk-and-ruby inspired language I'm cooking up 23:01:15 it's not esoteric but it's rather nice. 23:01:24 sure! 23:01:24 i can only give you a few samples, though 23:01:28 anything for the children 23:01:29 :p 23:01:36 I can write the code natively, but can't tell you the rules that dictate it :p 23:01:55 well you give me samples and ill write up a grammar, hows that? 23:01:58 and a semantics if you want 23:02:00 it uses indentation-based syntax so if you don't like that beware 23:02:08 and I think I can grammar-ize it 23:02:09 oh god 23:02:09 nevermind 23:02:10 just tell me about it 23:02:12 but it's not finalized yet 23:02:17 augur: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1067226 23:02:26 that's just an extremely basic sample 23:02:31 cooked it up in like 2 seconds 23:02:47 might need a 4 space indent 23:02:48 not sure 23:02:59 to look good I mean 23:03:06 i take it you're providing imaginary hooks for Cocoa? :P 23:03:14 augur: its object system is Objective-C's 23:03:26 no layer or binding or hooks 23:03:30 it IS the obj-c object system 23:03:48 no i mean you're providing the ability to run Cocoa stuff 23:03:57 augur: well yeah, the interp will be in obj-c 23:03:58 :) 23:04:04 ok. 23:04:14 it does seem to look a bit better with 4-space indents 23:04:28 but yeah, it's basically - take the objective-c language, make the syntax smalltalky, and take some hints from ruby 23:04:33 add some of my own stuff. 23:04:39 oh, and those type declarations it has are optional 23:04:41 you could do 23:04:43 initWithName: name 23:04:44 i think 23:04:48 not finalized that yet 23:04:50 but probably 23:04:56 (it wouldn't be inferred, though, just dynamic) 23:04:59 i can see the inspiration 23:05:16 well 23:05:27 in my opinion 23:05:34 (Shouter initWithName: ...) is wrong 23:05:42 oh, you're right 23:05:43 heh 23:05:45 it'd be 23:05:52 Shouter withName: ... 23:05:58 or 23:06:14 (Shouter new) initWithName: ... 23:06:22 yes 23:06:27 it'd be (Shouter alloc) initWithName:... 23:06:31 as is objective-c 23:06:44 its interpreted, dont use allocs. :P 23:06:47 no memory management! 23:06:50 make it fully interpreted! 23:07:22 augur: dude, it's the objective-c system 23:07:27 'alloc' just means 'create object' 23:07:28 that's not mine 23:07:31 that's what objective-c does 23:07:33 don't think you understand - 23:07:35 when you say 'class' 23:07:38 alloc doesnt mean "create object" 23:07:39 that actually makes an objective-c class 23:07:44 well yes I know 23:07:46 but the point is 23:07:48 NSString is the real nsstring 23:07:51 no layers or anything 23:07:57 when you send messages to it, you really send messages to it directly 23:08:17 does RubyCocoa use alloc messages and stuff? 23:08:36 yes 23:08:40 it has a layer for .new 23:08:41 huh. 23:08:45 but Objective-C has 'new' anyway 23:08:50 it's just [alloc] init, I think 23:08:58 but, you know. rarely do you just want to use 'init' 23:09:03 augur: you could also write this as 23:09:05 why are we talking about objective c 23:09:10 ((Shouter new) name:'joe') 23:09:14 which is ... nicer 23:09:15 ::rapes lament:: 23:09:24 and you can remove initWithName 23:09:26 tusho: that makes no sense. 23:09:26 don't rape me :( 23:09:26 so yeah 23:09:34 the new: message should not return the object itself. 23:09:37 augur: it does. 23:09:40 why? 23:09:45 it doesnt in ObjC 23:09:46 because that is what it does in objective-c. 23:09:51 (Class new) returns a new Class. 23:09:56 yes. 23:10:05 but setName: @"Joe" doesn't 23:10:17 hmph, okay 23:10:19 i'll revise it 23:10:29 in smalltalk, it probably would 23:10:30 so you cant do (((Shouter new) name:"Joe") sayName) 23:10:37 lament: yeah 23:10:40 in smalltalk it's standard practice to have otherwise void functions return self 23:10:42 but this is the objective-c system 23:10:48 so, it inherits its quirks 23:10:50 because ((Shouter new) name:"Joe") is undefined 23:11:22 yes 23:11:23 oky 23:11:24 *okay 23:11:25 :P 23:11:32 hmm 23:11:36 what syntax for class-methods.... 23:11:50 +- 23:11:55 augur: i mean in my language 23:12:04 so do i. 23:12:05 use +- 23:12:12 that's not smalltalky 23:12:15 i'd like to keep smalltalky _syntax_ 23:12:19 but it is ObjC-y 23:12:26 yes, but syntax-wise, I'm going for smalltalk 23:12:37 hm 23:12:50 augur: considering just having a forClass seperator 23:12:50 like 23:12:52 method 23:12:53 foo 23:12:55 forClass 23:12:59 [all methods here are class-side] 23:13:02 eh. 23:13:14 augur: how about 23:13:17 + and - 23:13:20 but - is implicitly assumed 23:13:25 and you don't really ever need to specify it 23:13:26 whatever. 23:13:29 its your language :P 23:14:05 augur: version two: 23:14:12 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1067241 23:14:21 oh, and look at the first line of talker, it's actually some neat magic 23:14:40 yes, clearly very Ruby-ish 23:14:45 yeah 23:14:48 @ basically means: 23:14:54 run this code in the context of the class I'm making 23:14:55 so it runs 23:15:01 Talker attr: #name is: NSString 23:15:03 why not just get rid of the @? 23:15:08 which defines some accessors and stuff 23:15:14 augur: because it's ambiguous with message defs 23:15:21 and instead just use method names instad 23:15:25 attr: ... 23:15:33 that'd define a method called attr in the class 23:15:33 its not ambiguous since it lacks a type definition 23:15:43 no it wouldnt 23:15:44 augur: they're not required 23:15:45 like I said 23:15:48 oh. 23:15:56 then self attr: ... 23:16:08 could work 23:16:29 to be consistent with self-directed message passing style 23:16:48 augur: OK, yes, it just seemed nice to have an explicit marker 23:16:51 but i agree 23:17:04 well, its explicit in that its a method call. :P 23:17:33 also, "self new"? 23:17:35 that makes no sense 23:17:40 self is the class, augur 23:17:42 it's a class method 23:17:48 oh wait yes 23:17:50 nevermind :p 23:17:58 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1067246 <-- a version with and without type declarations 23:18:01 of course you can mix and match 23:18:12 i forget, in ObjC, are classes objects too? 23:18:27 augur: even if they aren't, my language will reify them into objects 23:18:28 :) 23:18:47 will work fine either way 23:19:45 in objc, classes are fucked-up pseudo-objects without instance variables 23:19:55 err, "class" variables :) 23:19:59 lament: then i'll make a reified version with class variables :-p 23:20:01 uh 23:20:10 i think classes have class variables in objC 23:20:19 it's basically aiming to be smalltalk, but the obj-c object system is more useful because it can interact with all of cocoa 23:20:34 'cause, you know, getting all that stuff for free is nice 23:20:40 all of cocoa is in objc so it'd better be able to interact with cocoa. :P 23:21:06 augur: yes, but it's more elegant to just use the obj-c object system 23:21:11 and thus not having to 'interact' with it - it Just Works 23:21:14 because that's all the language knows 23:21:17 no, there're no class variables in objc 23:21:21 saves me implementing an object system, you know :p 23:21:51 which leads to all sorts of problems 23:21:54 there must be lament 23:22:01 and yet, there aren't 23:22:10 even if there isn't, I can wrap around a class and implement them without any real trouble 23:22:11 so i'm happy 23:22:31 and yet lots of cocoa classes have class variables.. 23:22:31 no, they don't 23:22:34 yes, they do. 23:22:36 because there're no class variables in objc 23:22:46 augur: name a class? 23:22:48 'cause, you know 23:22:50 or something that works just the same. 23:22:52 this discussion is unproductive 23:22:56 augur: yes, it's something that works just the same 23:23:02 namely, plain old global variables from C 23:23:10 except of course they don't work just the same 23:23:11 heh 23:23:11 then its a class variable. 23:23:20 how its implemented is irrelevant, its a class variable. 23:23:22 no, it's a global variable 23:23:26 it has global scope 23:23:31 its not treated like one. 23:23:36 um 23:23:37 its accessed via the class. 23:23:42 yeah, um, augur 23:23:44 that's a pretty bad argument 23:23:46 you can access it from everywhere else in the program, too 23:23:47 you can treat C as OOP too 23:23:51 doesn't mean it has objects and methods 23:23:56 what's worse 23:24:04 suppose you have a method initialize 23:24:06 for your class 23:24:06 Objective C is just a layer on top of C. 23:24:11 and it initializes a "class variable" 23:24:15 which is just a global variable 23:24:21 and then, you have a subclass 23:24:26 this subclass dosen't have an initialize method 23:24:33 so its parent's initialize is called instead 23:24:41 and the "class variable" gets initialized a second time 23:24:53 if you didn't put in a check that initialization already happened, you may well be screwed 23:24:57 you know that objective c classes do get initialized, right? 23:25:12 lament: yeah, i agree that that's bad, so I'll layer proper variables then :p 23:25:22 augur: ...isn't that exactly what i was describing on the past ~5 lines? 23:25:25 anyway, the point is, objective c has what amounts to class variables. 23:25:31 no, it does not. 23:25:36 it doesn't 23:25:36 yes it does. 23:25:36 :\ 23:25:45 you show me how you can access these supposed globals. 23:25:45 augur: objective c has global variables. 23:25:54 they're not supposed globals 23:25:57 they're just globals 23:26:00 like any other global in C 23:26:01 then show me how you access them. 23:26:06 they ARE supposed 23:26:08 like you would access any other global 23:26:11 because you're supposing they're globals. 23:26:15 augur: dude 23:26:16 lament means 23:26:19 they are literall 23:26:20 y 23:26:22 at the top scope 23:26:26 'int MyClass_global;' 23:26:30 and then as a class method 23:26:32 they're at the top scope of the respective .m file 23:26:34 or 23:26:38 anywhere else where you wish to put them 23:26:39 + (int)global { return MyClass_global; } 23:26:40 or whatever 23:26:43 show me how to access [NSColor redColor] 23:26:44 and THAT's how cocoa classes do it 23:26:52 augur: step 1. find out what global name they used step 2. use it 23:26:58 or [NSNotificationCenter defaultCenter] 23:26:58 augur: that's a method, not a variable. 23:27:05 tusho: prove there IS a global name. 23:27:06 those are methods 23:27:09 yes its a method lament 23:27:13 augur: implement a class method without it 23:27:14 go on 23:27:16 it's just NOT in the spec 23:27:21 but there are other methods for setting values returned by class methods 23:27:23 but [NSColor redColor] probably constructs an NSColor anyway 23:27:27 augur: yes 23:27:29 which does 23:27:37 + (void)setGlobal:(int)newone { MyClass_global = newone; } 23:27:40 show me that its actually a global. 23:28:01 augur: link us to the part of the objective c spec that gives you another way to implement a class variables 23:28:03 I'll wait here. 23:28:13 i dont have to because im not claiming it ISNT global 23:28:21 i dont know how its implemented. 23:28:22 show me that its actually a global. 23:28:26 im not making a positive claim. 23:28:33 uh, tusho, thats not a claim 23:28:38 thats a demand for evidence. 23:28:42 i don't know how [NSColor redColor] is implemented, but it has nothing to do with class variables anyway 23:28:48 you might not know the difference, let me find you a dictionary definition 23:29:24 but [NSColor redColor] == [NSColor redColor] 23:29:36 augur: yes, it's a method returning a constant value 23:29:40 how's a constant a variable? 23:30:18 indeed, its body probably simply constructs the NSColor object 23:30:26 by creating it with specific red, blue and green components 23:30:26 lament: that's not true 23:30:28 since its == 23:30:29 so same object 23:30:30 oh 23:30:34 still 23:30:35 durr. 23:30:37 way to go lament. 23:30:53 i suppose it's stored in a global variable, then, after all :) 23:30:56 lament doesnt even know what == means or what its implications are. 23:31:01 you suppose 23:31:02 lol @ augur 23:31:03 and yet its not supposed? 23:31:10 ? 23:31:13 lament, you're pulling this out of your ass. 23:31:20 you said earlier its not a supposed global variable 23:31:24 "AHA! Because you are not COMPLETELY STATING without ONE SHADOW OF A DOUBT that it's a global-- You're wrong. Therefore, I am right.@ 23:31:26 and now you just said you suppose it is a global variable 23:31:34 stop trolling 23:31:37 tusho, im not claiming anything 23:31:39 so i cant be "right" 23:31:42 im asking for proof. 23:31:47 lament is refusing to provide any. 23:31:48 Proof. With SCIENCE! 23:31:56 augur: As a counter - how else could you make a class variable? 23:31:56 15:31 you said earlier its not a supposed global variable 23:32:00 15:31 and now you just said you suppose it is a global variable 23:32:04 either learn to read english, or stop trolling 23:32:09 Tell us one way. Otherwise, obviously, since a global will work, it's the only way, if there's no other way. 23:32:18 tusho: the same way you make instance variables instance variables 23:32:23 augur: which is? 23:32:34 having some struct in memory representing the class variables. 23:32:49 augur: show us an example 23:32:51 that actually runs 23:32:52 augur: objc has instance variables because there's language-level support for them. 23:33:00 there's no langugae-level support for class variables. 23:33:04 so you say 23:33:12 yep 23:33:16 and yet you show no proof that these things are global 23:33:19 ugh 23:33:32 hey, im just asking you to show me that this is the case 23:33:40 here watch, i'll be you, but not you 23:33:41 augur: Show us a runnable example. Now. 23:33:51 please, just go read an objective c reference - that part of it that says "objective c does not have class variables" 23:33:51 Either that or you have no case. 23:33:58 actually they're not global variables 23:33:59 As, if there isn't any other way to do it, it has to be the one way that you _can_ do it. 23:34:06 they're really is language level support 23:34:09 there* 23:34:11 augur: show us 23:34:16 show us. show us. show us. show us. 23:34:23 if you say 'i don't have to', you have no leg to stand on 23:34:27 ill show you as much as lament shows. 23:34:33 troll 23:34:33 troll 23:34:33 troll 23:34:51 im doing nothing more than lament 23:35:02 you're proving your point! In a totally EDGY way. 23:35:04 You go, man! 23:35:05 ofcourse im doing it for irony 23:35:12 theres no point to prove 23:35:13 Irony fuck yeah! You rock! 23:35:15 Show it to the man./ 23:35:19 ... 23:35:23 tusho stop being an idiot 23:35:31 augur: what you're doing is destroying your credibility as somebody worth talking to 23:35:49 not your credibility in terms of how much you know or don't know objective c, that's not the point 23:35:54 how? by demanding you show me? 23:35:59 by being an asshole 23:36:06 im not being an asshole 23:36:09 im asking you to just show me 23:36:10 and you wont 23:36:12 just 23:36:13 fucking 23:36:15 show 23:36:16 me 23:36:24 otherwise you're full of shit 23:36:44 and its your credibility thats been destroyed 23:36:54 because you're now logged as making claims without backing them upo 23:37:00 Unfortunately, augur tends to think everything that is not exactly what he personally thinks (whether backed up by evidence or not) is completely wrong, and since we are not providing 100% scientific proof, we are obviously wrong, he is obviously right, and because you're not providing perfect and utter proof (even if you are), he does not have to back up his opinions whatsoever. 23:37:09 tusho stop being a child. 23:37:18 ive said multiple times that i dont know how its done 23:37:23 okay, this is from the apple objc reference: "For all the instances of a class to share data, you must define an external variable of some sort." 23:37:23 hence why im asking for evidence 23:37:36 link. 23:37:43 google 23:37:50 augur: you are accusing lament of fabricating a quote from apple's objective c reference 23:37:51 you obviously have the link 23:37:52 are you fucking kidding 23:38:04 he obviously has the link 23:38:06 no, i obviously have the document stored locally on my computer because i need to refer to it 23:38:09 and yet he wont copy and paste it 23:38:11 ok. 23:38:16 because i program in objective c for work 23:38:33 googled, verified, and accepted. 23:38:37 you suck. 23:38:40 finally! 23:38:41 jeez 23:38:56 tusho: you're 12. you're an idiot. go away. 23:39:03 you know. at the start of writing that long message. 23:39:07 I considered saying 23:39:13 'and now watch augur bring up my age because he's out of arguments' 23:39:15 i thought 23:39:18 'no, that'll just inflame him' 23:39:22 'he hasn't done that since forever.' 23:39:27 so. fucking. typical 23:39:36 im not the only one who's noticed that you act like a child. 23:39:50 you're making a fool of yourself, augur 23:39:50 but others have been kind to you and not mentioned in in public. 23:40:06 and you're still an idiot who thinks i was making an argument that trying to prove somthing 23:40:09 yes, they've obviously had intense discussions in #omg-tusho-is-12 23:40:13 giggling behind my backs 23:40:16 obviously. 23:40:18 *back 23:40:41 hey, you've gotta make shit up to argue. 23:40:45 not me. 23:40:55 augur: so what, how do you know people have noticed it? do they confide in you? 23:40:58 im not the one going around making up things to attack. 23:40:58 are you a priest or something? 23:41:08 shall i quote them to you? 23:41:10 sure. 23:41:11 go ahead. 23:41:52 augur: come on. 23:41:56 this is the first time i see personal insults between channel regulars 23:42:10 lament: i'd like to know what these people have had to say. 23:42:11 let him quote. 23:42:16 you know, forget it, im not playing your game tusho. 23:42:30 augur: quote it, or you're fabricating evidence to scare me or something 23:42:36 it's not a game, I'm intrigued. 23:42:54 because you're trolling, and by responding to your childishness i've already lost to it. 23:43:00 augur: i'll stop trolling. 23:43:02 just quote. 23:43:04 augur: you keep insulting him. 23:43:13 yep, im fabrication evidence. 23:43:18 lament: just let him quote. i'm interested. 23:43:23 or rumored evidence. 23:43:29 augur: tell. 23:43:31 as the case may be. 23:43:36 tell. 23:44:04 augur: come on.. 23:44:36 ask rodger the great. 23:44:44 he's stated that in public, actually 23:44:49 did he? 23:44:50 but do show your non-public quotes 23:44:52 oh well nevermind then. 23:44:55 i'd love to see them 23:45:44 ok im off to bed. 23:45:58 augur: quote 23:46:17 night lament, thank you for (frustratingly) enlightening me to how ObjC handles "class variables" 23:46:40 lament: he pulled it out of his arse, didn't he. 23:46:57 probably 23:47:44 aw tusho are you really that eager to see rodger say you act like a child? 23:47:51 sure. 23:48:10 oh but how do you know i didn't just make it up with my magical typing skills? 23:48:20 i don't. so show me. 23:48:39 RodgerTheGreat: Tusho needs to die in a fire. 23:48:52 * RodgerTheGreat nods 23:49:08 actually i made that up but hey, what he said. 23:49:24 you're retarded, augur. :) 23:49:34 oh, I thought you were just making a statement to me 23:49:38 you claimed that I was the one who needed to fabricate stuff for my arguments 23:49:39 how ironic 23:49:51 i do like RodgerTheGreat's implicit attack, though 23:49:52 very smooth. 23:49:53 i dont, it was another attempt to make a point 23:49:57 one that flew over your head. 23:50:05 woooooosh! 23:50:17 btw, fuck you RodgerTheGreat :) 23:50:24 if i quoted something to you, you'd just come back and say that i made it up 23:50:31 fuck you too, you little pest 23:50:49 that its just text in a log file on my computer and i have no proof rodger ever said it 23:51:04 so theres no point in even quote it at all. 23:51:17 there's a reason people don't take youngsters seriously on the internet, and you, tusho, are a shining example of this. 23:51:20 because you dont want to see the quote, you just want to call me a liar. 23:51:21 :) 23:51:40 RodgerTheGreat: I note that, pre anyone knowing anything about my age, people used to use reasoned arguments in here. 23:51:43 Crazy, isn't it? 23:51:52 reasoned arguments? 23:51:56 http://bash.org/?14207 23:51:58 you mean like the one you used earlier against me? 23:52:08 the one where im trying to prove some point 23:52:15 when all i was doing was asking for evidence 23:52:15 ? 23:52:19 that reasoned argument? 23:52:25 RodgerTheGreat: Everything can be backed up by bash.org! 23:52:34 (Especially when it's totally irrelevant) 23:52:43 tusho 23:52:51 what hes saying is that we didnt need to find out you were 12 23:52:53 we could tell 23:52:55 because you act like it 23:53:12 I don't recall anyone saying anything like that in the past, ever, actually 23:53:19 ofcourse you dont 23:53:20 If you have secret logs of that too I'd enjoy seeing them. 23:53:24 tusho: reading comprehension, dude 23:54:34 you need to fucking chill, tusho. and learn how to argue. you make shit up, and thats bad form. 23:54:57 augur: i am pretty chill right now, actually - you're the one who said 'tusho needs to die in a fire', then RodgerTheGreat called me a little pest 23:55:02 thank god, while tusho is a stupid 12-year old, the rest of us are mature and reasonable 23:55:11 perhaps some chilling might be warranted on both of your parts. 23:55:12 as exemplified by " tusho: you're 12. you're an idiot. go away." 23:55:17 actually i said that as a fake quote to prove a point 23:55:24 you're doing well with your point-proving 23:55:26 you still dont get that. 23:55:27 keep it up 23:55:49 you're 12, i should know better to expect you to be smart enough to grasp these things 23:56:11 this is a lovely ridiculous conversation, it's quite fun. 23:56:33 lament: nevermind the fact that i was talking to you and he was being childish and distracting? please. 23:57:26 i was asking you for evidence, and he was being noise, screaming his head off in typical childlike fashion. what i said valid and relevant. 23:57:38 and if you dont grasp why, you're an idiot too, and you should go away. 23:57:57 augur: you just told the chanop that he's an idiot and he should go away 23:57:58 grats 23:58:28 well, for one 23:58:41 tusho actually said exactly how you can do globals in objc 23:58:45 with code examples 23:58:54 before i bothered to quote the reference 23:58:57 saying that you can is not evidence of how its done 23:59:04 first of all. 23:59:14 you claimed it was done with globals and all i did was ask you to show me how it was done. 23:59:20 all he did after that point was troll. 23:59:40 you claim i was trolling but he was the one contributing nothing to the conversation at all, other than noise. 2008-07-10: 00:00:01 "Proof. With SCIENCE!" 00:00:06 oh thats very constructive. 00:00:10 (apparently you can use static rather than global, which is better since now it's confined to the file where the class is defined. So it's almost like a real class variable. Still it's just a C feature, and doesn't really work as a class variable due to the initialization issue) 00:00:23 i showed you how it was done, augur. 00:00:25 you just ignored me. 00:00:43 no, you said it could be done like so and so. 00:00:46 you showed nothing. 00:00:56 Lament, on the other hand, provided a quote from the specs. 00:01:04 or from the docs, rather. 00:01:31 the fact that you mock requests for evidence is all the demonstration anyone needs of your idiocy. 00:01:35 i said, and then showed code examples, augur. 00:01:47 see, if i go to ##c and ask them whether C has objects, and they say no, and if I then ask them to provide evidence from documentation for that 00:01:51 while lament backed up why this was as it was. 00:02:02 that would be somewhat unreasonable of me 00:02:03 the fact that you then go on to request evidence of your own, when i humorously make counter claims, is further proof. 00:02:26 i understand that lament, but this is not #objectivec 00:02:45 and its not unreasonable in this context 00:03:01 well, does C have objects? :) 00:03:11 given that Objective C is an OO language that has something that looks and behaves fairly similarly to class variables. 00:03:20 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:03:21 'humorously make counter claims' = 'troll while stating your point without any evidence after we have provided quite a bit' 00:03:46 tusho, you have yet to learn to finer points of parody. 00:03:59 you never provided evidence. 00:04:03 lament did, eventually. 00:04:06 if that was the finer points of parody, I prefer the coarser type 00:04:19 lament: just kick the kid :P 00:04:28 oklopol: kid is whom in this case? 00:04:34 pretty sure lament and me are arguing with augur 00:04:36 not any other combination 00:04:45 tusho: well, i usually agree with lament 00:04:52 (and while lament was telling you why it was the only way, I provided a code example showing that you _could do it that way_) 00:05:02 so, you figure 00:05:03 i think i agree with lament here too, for the most part. lol 00:05:05 (why would I be a duplicate of lament? we were sharing the work out.) 00:05:13 tusho 00:05:16 augur: ... but not me, even though I am making the same damn argument? 00:05:19 i never said you couldnt do it using global variables 00:05:41 you guys are funny 00:05:43 night -> 00:05:49 you werent making any arguments, which is the problem. you were making noise. 00:05:54 augur: fine, it sounded like you were. 00:06:01 you could have specified further. 00:06:09 specified what further? 00:06:14 there was nothing to specify 00:06:15 even so, the attacks made on me after that were completely unneccessary 00:06:35 i wasn't making any argument so there was nothing i could specify 00:08:20 i dont even know why it was such a fucking big deal to begin with 00:08:47 it wasn't, but you kept talking about it 00:08:49 so we did. 00:08:52 "er.. doesn't objc have class vars?" "no." "oh? but..." "actually, they're just globals: " 00:09:06 uh, tusho, i asked for evidence. 00:09:10 we gave it 00:09:11 after that it was all up to you. 00:09:16 no 00:09:18 LAMENT gave it 00:09:22 twenty minutes later 00:09:26 you gave nothing. 00:09:48 augur: instead of "oh? but...", there actually was a bunch of "yes it does. yes it does." 00:09:52 Anyone has trouble with ICQ? 00:10:11 actually lament, there was not "yes it does yes it does" 00:10:12 there was 00:10:22 but what about this: [NSColor redColor] and other examples. 00:10:35 which is the "but..." 00:10:36 and we explained actually augur 00:10:46 then you went back to yes it does. yes it does. 00:10:53 Slereah_: anyone who spells IQ with a C has trouble with their IQ! 00:11:10 tusho, read your logs. 00:11:34 always with the logs 00:11:39 i did. 00:11:41 same thing. 00:11:41 irc would be a better place without them 00:11:44 (gasp) 00:11:58 i said yes it does once 00:12:10 in saying that objective c has what amounts to class variables. 00:12:41 anyway this is silly. 00:12:45 now were arguing about arguing. 00:12:55 and all this does is breed bad blood. 00:13:03 im sorry i brought up your age against you, tusho. 00:13:25 pretty sure it bled bad blood when you faked a quote from RodgerTheGreat about me burning and them him agreeing, but I agree. let's shut up about it. this is ridiculous 00:13:26 :) 00:13:33 i promised not to do that and i broke that promise. 00:13:39 yes, okay. 00:13:41 apology accepted 00:14:02 uh.. i faked the quote with the fairly obvious fact that it was fake. :P 00:14:12 yeah, I was referring to his following up of it, not you 00:14:13 :p 00:14:15 but yeah. 00:14:21 let's talk about esolangs 00:14:21 :p 00:14:31 (LIKE OBJ-C CAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE CLASS VARIABLES HUR HUR HUR) 00:15:26 some people would say Obj C isnt object oriented. 00:15:53 then again, its a good question what object oriented really means, in the context of ObjC, given that Obj C is just sugar. 00:16:22 i think it's best to not attempt to define object-oriented 00:16:24 smalltalk is pretty close to 'real object orientation', i guess 00:16:36 there're programming languages, and they have features 00:16:53 i think Java is probably justifiably called object oriented 00:17:00 not ... really. 00:17:01 atleast in that it forces you to write with objects 00:17:08 alan kay would certainly barf 00:17:10 you cant do shit in Java without using objects 00:17:15 oh im sure alan kay would 00:17:20 doesn't make it object oriented though :) 00:17:39 and while i agree with him on this matter, he's not the smartest guy in the world. 00:17:53 so i wouldn't use his approval as the benchmark of OOness. 00:17:56 he's not, no 00:18:02 but java has several bad stuff 00:18:08 oh ofcourse it does 00:18:09 e.g. public slots 00:18:11 its horrible and vil 00:18:11 that's just wrong 00:18:12 :) 00:18:13 evil* 00:18:19 Java needs to die 00:18:22 and it is dying 00:18:28 just not fast enough 00:18:30 it uses them as a clutch because it doesn't haev sufficient metaprogramming abilities to define accessors easily 00:18:34 augur: thankfully the JVM isn't all that bad 00:18:41 so lots of languages are going on it 00:18:43 and reaping it's stdlib 00:18:45 which is nice 00:18:46 (or raping) 00:18:47 everything Java based i've ever used has been shitty 00:18:49 _everything_. 00:19:02 except tiny programs written by science people 00:19:19 raping? whats this about raping? 00:19:23 raping java's stdlib 00:19:25 for their own benefit 00:19:30 the new jvm languages 00:20:14 and here i thought we were talking about you again. 00:20:19 hahaha 00:20:22 you mean they're compiling to JVM byte code? 00:20:44 what the fuck is it that makes Java so fucking shitty? can someone explain this to me? 00:20:48 i mean, its always slow 00:20:50 buggy 00:21:06 and its supposed multiplatformality is a joke 00:21:10 augur: well, observer effect [ i think ] for one 00:21:15 it's not actually THAT bad 00:21:20 oh my god dude it is 00:21:20 but since you dislike it for being bad 00:21:28 its so fucking slow 00:21:28 it gets in your mind really really bad 00:21:31 and it's not slow 00:21:34 that's crap 00:21:36 it has a slow startup 00:21:39 but it is not slow, no way 00:21:42 no dude 00:21:48 it's not slow, augur :\ 00:21:48 everything ive used in Java is slow as fuck 00:21:59 ive written JAVASCRIPT that runs faster than these things 00:22:01 which is sad 00:22:06 :| 00:22:19 you say its not slow, but run azureus/vuze 00:22:31 its also a resource hog for no fucking reason 00:22:39 i just hate java 00:22:47 everything ive ever used that was java sucked. 00:22:50 thats all i know. 00:23:00 people tell me it doesnt suck but ive never seen it do anything but suck 00:23:01 azuerus is a memory hog and slow, augur 00:23:03 java itself isn't 00:23:08 it has a slow startup, but the language itself is fast 00:23:15 then i must be getting all the shit programs 00:23:25 because azureus is like all the rest ive used. 00:23:26 yes 00:23:32 there's a lot of shit java programs, no doubt :p 00:23:38 it makes it pretty darn easy to write them 00:23:42 but one thing it is not is particularly slow 00:23:59 but i can only form an opinion based on what ive used so my opinion is still that java blows. 00:24:12 s/java/a huge load of java applications/ 00:24:13 anyway 00:24:14 java does blow 00:24:21 but not quite as much as it seems to via applications 00:25:01 i think a lot of java hating is because people disagree with its philosophy 00:25:08 verbosity, etc 00:25:12 it's all for a reason 00:25:21 it promotes a specific type of software engineering 00:25:29 lament how old are you? 00:25:32 that many people justifiably dislike 00:25:40 augur: 11 00:25:58 damn. too young for the #esoteric orgy im planning. 00:26:07 i'm also straight. 00:26:10 lament: don't pretend. 00:26:14 we all know you're 7. 00:26:18 and gay 00:26:18 -!- timotiis has quit (Connection timed out). 00:26:20 we can tell from the way you speak! 00:26:21 :p 00:26:35 you have a lisp. we can hear it over the interwebs. 00:26:50 -!- Corun_ has changed nick to Corun. 00:27:03 slereah, are you coming? oklopol'll be there :o 00:27:09 define 'coming' 00:27:09 ::orgies with oklopol and slereah:: 00:27:18 <3youtusho 00:30:19 i don't have a lisp 00:30:20 PG has a lisp 00:30:41 it's a shitty lisp though 00:30:44 he even named it 00:31:16 ARC - stands for A Really Crappy 00:31:33 "ARC language" 00:31:46 lol 00:31:55 i dont know how much Arc varies from clisp 00:31:59 uh. 00:31:59 i like scheme tho. 00:32:00 very. 00:32:06 arc is just ... intolerably crap 00:32:12 why? 00:32:20 HOW TO MAKE ARC: 00:32:23 1. Announce it. 00:32:26 2. Hype it. For 5 years. 00:32:39 3. Write a 1000-line Arc->Scheme compiler that renames 'lambda' to 'fn' and makes a few names shorter. 00:32:42 yeah that was a long time to make a language for 00:32:46 4. Make sure it doesn't support unicode. 00:32:54 but atleast its not JS2 00:32:56 5. Write a crappy, crappy web app library that won't scale and frankly sucks. 00:32:57 JS2 has been in the works for on 00:32:58 oh 00:33:00 10 years 00:33:06 6. OMG!!!!! ARC!!! FUCK YEAH BITCHES I ROCK SUCK MY DICK <3 00:33:13 and its just Javariffic 00:33:29 i mean 10 years? 00:33:31 really? 00:33:41 who takes 10 years to design a language? 00:33:52 especially given the small amount thats been added 00:37:34 i've been learning a simple piano piece for 10 years 00:38:03 there's just always other stuff for me to do :) 00:42:48 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 00:44:57 you can learn a simple piano piece for life and still not grasp it, if its the right piece 00:45:18 but thats a completely different thing than adding classes to JS. 00:45:26 which is really all that JS2 amounts to. 00:45:50 er 00:45:57 js2 adds optional static typing with quite some nice types 00:46:01 namespaces 00:46:12 and tons more 00:46:28 including better debugging 00:46:33 a nicer browser api 00:46:34 (I believe) 00:46:45 and the type system is in fact very good 00:46:49 it can type higher order functions and all 00:48:21 oh, and does anyone find it funny how MS guys can never say javascript on their blogs 00:48:23 it's always jscript 00:53:27 -!- Slereah__ has quit ("kthxbai"). 01:01:06 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:01:23 thats because ms is afraid of getting sued by sun. 01:01:36 and i dont think any of those things warrant a 10 year development time. 01:01:44 they don't 01:01:46 but 01:01:55 'adding classes to JS./which is really all that JS2 amounts to' 01:01:59 i was responding to that 01:03:18 i dont think those other features will be used terribly much. 01:03:29 i think the only thing that will really be used extensively, and rightfully so, is the classes. 01:03:57 the debugging sure, but the API yes ofcourse 01:04:24 namespaces? probably not. 01:04:27 types? possibly. 01:04:38 uhm, all the ecmascript4 code people are prototyping up is in namespaces 01:04:41 they're just java packages 01:04:44 namespace foo.bar.baz; 01:05:01 quite a bit of it uses types, too 01:05:18 i mean in real programs, not the imaginary beta programs. :P 01:05:28 there are prototype compilers 01:05:33 so tusho are you coming to the #esoteric orgy? 01:05:35 and there are people using them for real to semi-real things 01:05:37 soo.. 01:05:39 and yes 01:05:43 awesome 01:05:48 oklopols place 01:05:56 why not my place 01:06:11 because you live with your parents. 01:06:28 and i dont think they want a bunch of guys from #esoteric fucking their son 01:06:31 and i don't? 01:06:31 i mean lets be serious 01:06:48 who wants #esoterics fucking their kids, its a terrifying prospect 01:06:54 many 19-year-olds live with their parents here 01:06:55 augur: same problem with oklopol, you know. 01:07:13 oklopol, you live with your parents? hm. i had figured you lived with your girlfriend. 01:07:21 since she seems to be around so much. 01:07:23 i haven't said either one of those 01:07:35 hotidlerchick! 01:07:56 well, i may have, but that data may be outdated 01:08:09 hot idler chick? 01:08:19 how i live isn't public info really 01:08:22 yeah very hot. 01:08:30 idler??? 01:08:37 oh 01:08:40 idle-er 01:08:41 ? 01:08:48 yes. 01:08:51 hotidlerchick. 01:09:01 -!- oklopol has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:09:01 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:09:02 now i see 01:09:11 -!- oklopol has joined. 01:09:13 theres a female in #esoteric? 01:09:15 and she's oklopol's girlfriend? 01:09:17 :O 01:09:26 supposedly 01:09:29 i think it's just oklopol though 01:09:32 his other machine 01:09:34 oklo, youre girlfriend lurks here? 01:09:37 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 01:09:40 hes netsplit augur 01:09:41 your* 01:09:49 you and your wild fantacies 01:09:51 first it was me, then it was my gf 01:09:53 when there's no proof it was either 01:09:55 not for me any more. 01:10:06 what? 01:10:07 ok then oklopol who is hotidlerchick 01:10:26 do i know who it is? 01:10:32 on what grounds 01:10:42 oklo, lemme see your girly 01:10:55 you guys are silly :) 01:10:55 oklopol: same ip, dude 01:10:56 same ip 01:11:07 and they type like you 01:11:10 and you never talk at the same time 01:11:39 tusho: i doubt we've ever had the same ip, but otherwise that sounds pretty sound. 01:11:41 now hes gonna write a script that lets him randomize message send times by half a second 01:12:00 oklopol, show me your girly 01:12:11 :D 01:12:11 or better yet, show me you, naked, in high resolution 01:12:18 i'll show you everything 01:12:24 and more 01:12:27 hot 01:12:27 ::waits:: 01:13:45 well? cmon! 01:14:18 * oklopol presses send 01:14:38 uh huh 01:14:42 augur: i assume you will be posting it in here for scientific study relating to the orgy. 01:14:44 wait wut 01:15:08 tusho, i agree with you: wait wut 01:15:12 nooo it was just fo you my darling 01:15:14 *for 01:15:14 cmon oklopol. WHERE IS IT 01:15:41 i will share nothing, have no fear! 01:15:59 i think the hotness of the pic made the tubes tighten up. 01:16:09 augur: he's pulling an augur 01:16:11 and it didn't get through 01:16:12 lolololololol 01:16:27 its not a dumptruck its a series of tubes! 01:18:27 i don't understand 01:18:40 please speak slowlier 01:19:02 its a quote from an the american senator from alaska 01:19:17 the quote that spawned the whole "tubes" thing 01:19:19 augur: dude. he knows that. 01:19:22 :p 01:19:32 he might not, hes finnish. 01:19:39 and lives in finland. 01:19:41 they dont have the internet there! 01:19:59 augur: i don't understand what you meant by that, yes, that was what i was referring to 01:20:13 hey we have lots of internet! 01:20:39 we basically eat it for dinner 01:20:56 i hear its tasty smoked 01:27:36 -!- tusho has quit. 01:30:31 ok night guys 01:30:42 n 01:44:32 -!- cherez has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:44:58 -!- cherez has joined. 02:22:05 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:16:11 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:24:11 -!- moozilla has joined. 04:29:19 oklopol: oh haha, I get the joke- you type with your hands 04:32:32 <:D 05:13:45 -!- Parma-Quendion has joined. 05:14:21 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 05:15:40 -!- Quendus has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:17:37 -!- Parma-Quendion has changed nick to Quendus. 06:15:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:10:19 -!- augur has joined. 09:12:26 RodgerTheGreat: good for you, i was not as lucky 09:16:50 o.o 10:49:00 -!- Corun has joined. 11:05:41 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:50:06 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 12:54:33 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 13:05:34 -!- fizzie has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:05:34 -!- atsampson has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:05:34 -!- Dewi has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:05:34 -!- lifthras1ir has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:05:34 -!- shachaf has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:08:22 -!- atsampson has joined. 13:08:22 -!- Dewi has joined. 13:08:22 -!- shachaf has joined. 13:08:22 -!- lifthras1ir has joined. 13:08:22 -!- fizzie has joined. 13:53:10 -!- Corun has joined. 14:22:53 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:35:17 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:06:53 -!- oklopol has joined. 15:28:11 -!- timotiis has joined. 15:36:22 -!- pikhq has left (?). 15:40:51 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:49:30 ooo 15:58:52 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:04:06 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:20:34 -!- tusho has joined. 16:20:51 hi ais523 16:20:53 hi tusho 16:21:04 at least that time I started writing before your message arrived 16:21:11 but yours came before I finished typing it 16:21:18 I typed it after joining. 16:21:25 yes 16:21:26 So yay. that was fair. 16:21:30 you win that one fairly 16:27:18 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:29:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:34:23 -!- Oyama has joined. 16:40:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:40:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:59:17 -!- Oyama has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:09:30 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 17:30:29 -!- oklopol has joined. 17:33:09 -!- atrapado has joined. 17:34:48 hi oklopol 17:36:28 hi 17:36:44 are you in the mood for learning more INTERCAL? 17:36:48 or should I do something else? 17:37:27 i'm in the mood 17:37:53 well, before I had to go yesterday I gave you a simple program that did output to run 17:38:03 READ OUT is the output command 17:38:15 and #123 is how you write the constant 123 in INTERCAL 17:38:23 yep 17:38:29 although INTERCAL supports numbers up to 32-bit, constants can be at most 16-bit 17:38:41 and you need to use expressions in order to create larger values 17:38:48 yeah 17:39:11 also, READ OUT outputs in Roman Numerals 17:39:16 yeah, noticed 17:39:26 and it can only be used to output variables or constants 17:39:32 also think i've heard oerjan or you mention it 17:39:36 okay 17:39:39 if you want to output an expression, you have to assign it to a variable first 17:39:57 ok, probably best to move onto variables now 17:40:05 you have 65535 16-bit variables 17:40:10 and 65535 32-bit variables 17:40:20 a 16-bit's variable's name is . followed by a number 17:40:21 okay 17:40:21 such as .1 17:40:32 and a 32-bit variable's name is : followed by a number 17:40:33 like :10 17:40:37 okay 17:40:46 you assign to a variable using the <- command 17:40:50 as in DO .1 <- #10 17:40:55 yep 17:41:41 so you can write a simple test program like this: 17:41:49 DO .1 <- #10 DO READ OUT .1 PLEASE GIVE UP 17:42:00 yeah would print X 17:42:02 (whitespace is unimportant in INTERCAL, sort of like it is in C) 17:42:19 also, note that the DO/PLEASE ratio becomes important once you have at least 3 commands 17:42:31 the ratio must be from 2:1 to 4:1 to avoid an error 17:42:33 i'm assuming #'s are in base 10 17:42:38 oklopol: yes, they are 17:42:41 because you didn't mention anything about a base 17:42:43 okay. 17:42:52 the opposite of READ OUT is WRITE IN, by the way 17:42:58 you have to spell out the number as digits in allcaps 17:43:00 like ONE TWO THREE 17:43:01 sounds feasible 17:43:03 when entering the number 17:43:14 oki 17:43:18 that accepts several non-English language, though, most of which you're unlikely to know 17:43:25 Latin's probably the second-most-popular on the list 17:43:27 what are they? 17:43:47 -!- atrapado has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:43:51 also Volapuk, Tagalog, Basque, Georgian, Nahaiutl, and a few others I can't remember 17:43:55 you can look it up, though 17:43:58 i know some volapük 17:44:01 cool 17:44:05 do you know numbers in it? 17:44:09 no :) 17:44:14 i used to 17:44:17 probably best to stick to English, then 17:44:21 ya 17:44:25 besides, the accents are a pain to get right 17:44:43 now, INTERCAL-72 has 5 operators 17:44:48 none of which are entirely standard 17:45:02 volapük has accents? 17:45:04 ais523: i'd quite like to have intercal lessons, but i'd prefer them personally, so not now 17:45:06 as in, they're standard in INTERCAL 17:45:13 but not used by other languages 17:45:20 oklopol: well, there's an accent on the u for starters 17:45:21 ais523: um yes 17:45:24 ö 17:45:27 and ü 17:45:27 ais523: you mean the umlaut? 17:45:30 yes 17:45:36 and 17:45:37 it's not really an accent, I suppose 17:45:37 ä 17:45:38 but that's it 17:45:39 but not in ASCII 17:45:41 accent is a weird term for it 17:45:49 since it isn't an accent :P 17:45:52 anyway, do continue 17:45:52 oklopol: it's because I'm used to thinking in English 17:45:57 ya. 17:46:14 there are three unary operators, AND, OR, and XOR 17:46:21 the unusual thing about them comes from them being unary 17:46:32 basically, if you imagine a number written in binary 17:46:45 then the bottom bit of AND of that number is the AND of its bottom two bits 17:47:00 the second-least-significant bit is AND of the second- and third- least-significant bits 17:47:03 and so on 17:47:15 with the most significant bit of the result being the AND of the most and least significant bits 17:47:15 can you show more graphically? 17:47:22 yes, I think so 17:47:25 i'm a bit slow atm. 17:47:34 13 in binary is 1101 17:47:45 ya¨ 17:47:46 *ya 17:47:59 #&13 is 0100, which is 0&1 1&1 1&0 0&1 17:48:21 (in INTERCAL, unary operators come after the first character of their argument) 17:48:38 okay i get it. 17:48:51 AND is & and OR is V 17:48:53 all work like that? 17:48:56 yes 17:49:00 XOR is an interesting one 17:49:09 the portable way to write it is V then a literal backspace then - 17:49:14 -!- augur has joined. 17:49:19 but C-INTERCAL also accepts ? because it's easier to type 17:49:27 morning! 17:49:28 well 17:49:30 not really but 17:49:35 morning augur 17:49:36 morn 17:49:39 afternoon augur! 17:49:45 ais523: this is very late morning. 17:49:55 im in ansbach so its really 7pm but its morning back in the states :p 17:49:57 :p 17:50:00 tusho: it's about 10 to 6 in your time zone 17:50:07 ais523: very very very late morning, yes 17:50:10 :) 17:50:21 oklopol: anyway, those operators aren't particularly useful by themselves 17:50:26 there are two binary operators too 17:50:28 -!- timotiis has joined. 17:50:30 -!- jix has joined. 17:50:34 which are called ~ and $ 17:50:45 $ is probably easier to explain, it alternates bits in its arguments 17:50:53 so the last bit of $'s result is the last bit of its second argument 17:51:02 the penultimate bit is the last bit of its first argument 17:51:14 the 3rd-last bit of its result is the 2nd-last bit of its second argument 17:51:15 and so on 17:51:21 (binary_operator number) = (binary_operator number (leftshift number 1)), right? 17:51:22 okay 17:51:46 oklopol: rotate, rather than shift, also it's a rightshift 17:52:13 $ is pronounced 'mingle' or 'interleave', by the way 17:52:46 okay 17:52:56 also, mingles are a pain to do in your head 17:53:03 more so than any of the other operators, I find 17:53:20 CLC-INTERCAL's guestbook uses them for its CAPTCHA 17:53:25 which I often get wrong 17:53:37 the remaining operator, ~, is called 'select' 17:53:51 #&1101 = 00001101 & 10000110 in case it's a right rotate, guess i didn't get it after all. 17:54:00 alright 17:54:06 i think i can guess that one 17:54:09 but do go on 17:54:12 #&1101 = 00001101 & 10000110 = 00000100 17:54:19 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:54:28 haha, right. 17:54:43 oklopol: well, it does an ordinary bitwise-and between its arguments (like in C), but then sorts the bits of the result by the bits of the second argument 17:54:43 okay, go one 17:54:44 *pon 17:54:47 *on, hmph 17:55:30 so, say, #12 ~ #5 is 00001100 ~ 00000101 is 000000 10 (the 6 bits corresponding to 0s in the right argument come first, then the 2 bits corresponding to 1s in the right argument) 17:55:40 that's actually the most useful and interesting operator in INTERCAL 17:55:49 although it needs to be combined with the others to do useful work 17:55:57 oh, and it's a stable sort 17:56:10 as in, the bits end up in the same order if they correspond to 1s in the second argument 17:56:30 okay it was a bit more interesting than i though. 17:56:32 *thought 17:56:58 strangely enough, select's the only INTERCAL operator that was ever independently implemented in hardware 17:57:18 as in, implemented by someone unaware of INTERCAL, by coincidence 17:57:29 one final thing: INTERCAL has no operator precedence 17:57:39 so explicit "'s 17:57:46 you must specify precedences yourself where ambiguous by using explicit ' ' and " " 17:57:51 which act like parentheses in other langs 17:57:54 ya 17:58:04 can you start with either @ toplevel? 17:58:06 yep 17:58:17 you can even mix them within a level as long as it's unambiguous 17:58:22 but doing so can leave the result hard to read 17:58:34 alternating on different levels is the standard for relatively readable code 17:59:06 okay, i'm with you sofar, go on. 17:59:23 for instance, one common way to simulate C's & operator: " '& .1 $ .2' ~ '#0 $ #65535' " 17:59:34 can you see how that works? 17:59:50 hmm. 17:59:51 no. 18:00:01 well, .1 $ .2 alternates bits in .1 and .2 18:00:04 then you & the result 18:00:15 then you select every second bit from the result 18:00:16 so there is precedence 18:00:25 oklopol: no, there isn't 18:00:33 the & is applying to '.1 $ .2' 18:00:34 well, unary after binary in this case 18:00:42 but it comes one character later than the start of the group 18:00:49 oh, left-to-right? 18:01:03 well, unary always applies to the thing it's one character inside 18:01:05 i assumed you'd have to do & ".1 $ .2". 18:01:20 oklopol: that's a syntax error, the & is one character too early 18:01:22 oh, i see. 18:01:30 ais 18:01:32 i meant 18:01:37 '& ".1 $ .2". ' 18:01:43 ah, that's legal too 18:01:48 yes, there's unary before binary precedence 18:01:54 yeah, but i get how unaries work now, i think. 18:01:56 but the manual won't admit to it 18:01:57 syntactically 18:02:13 can you do 18:02:17 .&35 18:02:20 yes 18:02:23 cool 18:02:25 i like it 18:02:31 so 18:02:36 ais523: can I name a variable after an expr result 18:02:38 i do get the and now, at least somewhat 18:02:45 tusho: what do you mean? 18:02:45 : #34 18:02:53 tusho: no, you can't 18:02:54 would make : 18:02:55 aww 18:03:04 heh 18:03:05 after all, Perl does that 18:03:18 besides, #34's a syntax error 18:03:29 bah 18:03:29 oh, one other important point to mention: in INTERCAL, syntax errors happen at runtim 18:03:30 e 18:03:39 you're allowed to put them in your program 18:03:43 so long as they never run 18:03:46 : #34 <- . #34 18:03:52 put .(that) into :(that) 18:04:07 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:04:26 tusho: as I've sead before, #34's meaningless anyway 18:04:34 So's your face :( 18:04:50 oklopol: here's another common idiom for you to try: what does " .1 ~ .1 " ~ #1 do? 18:05:06 hmm 18:05:28 checks for zero? 18:05:41 yep 18:05:54 because it ANDs .1 with itself 18:05:56 which does nothing 18:05:58 ya 18:05:59 then sorts the bits in the result 18:06:12 so if there are any 1 bits in the result, they'll be selected by the ~ #1 18:06:15 yeah i can see the bits flying about in my head 18:06:30 time to move on to flow control, then 18:06:35 ya 18:06:45 it's possible to give any line a line label 18:06:49 by putting a number in parens before it 18:06:51 like (10) 18:06:57 so you could do (10) DO .1 <- #1 18:07:06 sorry, s/line/command/ 18:07:07 yeah 18:07:12 because INTERCAL's whitespace-insensitive 18:07:20 and INTERCAL-72 has three control-flow commands 18:07:23 NEXT, RESUME, and FORGET 18:07:31 NEXT is like a procedure call in other langs 18:07:36 it jumps to the line you specify 18:07:43 and saves the return address on the NEXT stack 18:07:48 ya 18:07:53 it's written as DO (10) NEXT 18:07:54 it has an arbitrary limit on height? 18:07:57 oklopol: yep, 80 18:08:06 okay, easy to remember 18:08:19 RESUME takes one argument, which is an expression 18:08:21 as in DO RESUME #1 18:08:28 and returns 18:08:32 then it pops that many entries from the NEXT stack and returns at the last one popped 18:08:36 hmm 18:08:42 so DO RESUME #1 returns from the procedure you're in 18:08:44 i see 18:08:50 but DO RESUME #2 returns from the procedure that called that one 18:08:59 so you can do try-catch 18:09:16 yes, also, RESUME with a non-constant expression is the main way to do a conditional jump in INTERCAL-72 18:09:26 haha 18:09:29 that's awesome :D 18:09:34 finally, FORGET removes entries from the NEXT stack 18:09:38 as in DO FORGET #1 removes 1 entry 18:09:48 btw, RESUME's an error if the argument is 0 or too large 18:09:57 whereas FORGET just removes no entries or all the entries respectively 18:10:21 let's see: the typical way to do a conditional jump's like this: 18:11:20 DO .5 <- expression that returns 1 or 2 DO (2) NEXT code if 2 DO GIVE UP (2) DO (3) NEXT DO FORGET #1 code if 1 DO GIVE UP (3) DO RESUME .5 18:11:21 ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Antonio_Perez_Ayala 18:11:26 this article needs to go away, methinks 18:11:34 it starts with {{db-author}} 18:11:36 which makes me lol 18:11:52 even if you've made esolangs we're not your personal wikipedia outcast! 18:12:12 tusho: I'm not sure whether to delete it or not 18:12:15 db-author has no meaning in Wikipedia 18:12:21 s/Wikipedia/Esolang/ 18:12:23 ais523: look at brainsub: 18:12:24 # (cur) (last) 23:18, 8 July 2008 Smjg (Talk | contribs) m (hangon (continuing the idea of referencing templates that exist on Wikipedia but not here)) 18:12:24 # (cur) (last) 03:25, 8 July 2008 Aacini (Talk | contribs) (Replacing page with '{{db-author}}') 18:12:29 let me check the history to see if it was always there 18:12:37 i say we nuke antonio perez ayala, and BrainSub 18:12:42 hmm 18:12:43 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=BrainSub&oldid=11350 18:12:45 ok, so he made an article 18:12:49 and now wants it deleted 18:12:54 wtf, man, whatever. 18:13:18 well, the page about the author should probably be deleted, I think, due to the db-author 18:13:24 Brainsub's a real esolang, though, isn't it? 18:13:28 at least I've heard of it 18:13:31 yes, but the author replaced it with db-author 18:13:34 oklopol: understand my example above? 18:13:37 and besides, the article is way too long 18:13:40 much longer than the brainfuck article. 18:13:41 i'm just starting to read it 18:13:48 tusho: that doesn't mean necessarily delete it, it doesn't on Wikipedia if someone else wants the article 18:13:48 what's "if" 18:14:00 ais523: shrug they're both vanity pages 18:14:02 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:14:02 oklopol: oh, stuff in lowercase is just placeholders 18:14:06 (started by the subject and mostly only revised by them) 18:14:07 it's not part of INTERCAL syntax 18:14:27 tusho: so, most of the stuff on Esolang's like that, and besides that's specifically allowed there 18:14:40 o 18:14:42 i'm just saying 18:14:47 (that o was a mistake) 18:14:54 that I don't think either of them are particularly valuable articles 18:14:57 maybe if it was stripped down a lot 18:15:08 ais523: let me think a sec. 18:15:15 ais523: ooo 18:15:15 http://esolangs.org/wiki/FlogScript 18:15:20 zzo38's golfscript answer 18:15:42 80 char underload 18:16:03 ais523: 18:16:03 Ia:{[{\}{.}{;}{+}{_{)()}S0\:}{{(}\+{)}+}{_+:}{P.}{}]_(\:{~:!*(a^S}1/?=~_,0=!F[}~ 18:16:09 not bad 18:16:13 wjw 18:16:33 ais523: i got it. 18:16:45 I wonder if that's actually implementing Underlambda, i.e. does S preserve the source code or just paraphrase? 18:17:02 oklopol: well, what I've told you is enough to write real and working INTERCAL-72 programs 18:17:09 that's the more commonly used subset of the language 18:17:13 but there are other useful commands too 18:17:51 come from didn't exist in 72? 18:17:56 oklopol: no 18:17:57 but it's useful 18:18:05 it's the most common extension 18:18:12 so common that it's effectively standard 18:18:17 even J-INTERCAL implemented it 18:18:23 I wonder if that's actually implementing Underlambda, i.e. does S preserve the source code or just paraphrase? 18:18:23 try it? 18:19:33 underload in cise, need to make 18:19:41 yes, definitely 18:19:56 I'd like to have a go in Underlambda too when I finish speccing it, it'll be short but probably not that short 18:20:00 i should make ninjascript some time 18:20:13 cise in something, need to implement... 18:20:21 it was going to be the only language that could consistently win both speed and size 18:20:44 cise doesn't currently have that much support for parsing 18:21:16 here's how to take the factorial of the top element on the stack in ninjacode 18:21:17 2..* 18:21:26 nice, is it not? 18:21:37 hmm... Overload (my aborted mammoth project for writing very short langs that I eventually tarpitted into Underload) was going to use Cyclexa for parsing 18:21:51 overload is aborted?! 18:21:56 well, not really 18:21:56 an infinite list of factorials in cise is 1::Il,)&* 18:21:57 just on hold 18:22:04 ais523: like 2..*? 18:22:08 tusho: why the 2? 18:22:13 1 * x = x 18:22:19 so you can start factorials at 2* 18:22:21 basically 18:22:25 .. = inclusive range 18:22:30 tusho: that fails on factorial 1 18:22:37 oh, true 18:22:38 okay 18:22:39 1..* 18:22:46 and 18:22:49 the product of [] is 1 18:22:56 arithmetic ops, if given a list, do the folding version 18:23:02 so * on a list is product 18:23:18 tusho: factorial of TOS would be U'*t in Overload 18:23:28 what does that mean? 18:23:32 or possibly a capital T, it's a while since I did Overload programming 18:23:33 let me check 18:24:02 oh, and fun fact: if you defined the function '..*', that code's meaning would change 18:24:09 (longest name possible, if you want a shorter one, add a space after it) 18:24:42 tusho: basically, U produces a list from 1 to TOS, then '* is like (*) in Underload (i.e. push * onto the stack), then t uses the code on TOS to combine all elements of a list 18:24:54 U produces a list from 1 to TOS total cheat 18:24:55 :) 18:25:00 tusho: no, it's useful 18:25:03 i can do that, though 18:25:04 U* 18:25:05 very useful for looping, and so 18:25:08 if U = 1.. 18:25:15 s/so/such/ 18:25:26 J uses a similar method to do loop-like objects, I believe 18:25:42 :U 1..;:F U*; 18:25:47 then F is factorial 18:25:47 or just 18:25:50 :F 1..* 18:25:51 err 18:25:52 :F 1..*; 18:25:53 of course 18:26:00 though hm 18:26:05 {1..*}:F 18:26:08 that's shorter. 18:26:13 [1..*]:F 18:26:14 that's nice 18:26:20 well, if you wanted to risk redefining F, you could do (U'*t)'F# 18:26:24 to define F as factorial 18:26:31 [1..*]:! 18:26:36 though ! will probably be already used 18:26:38 tusho: what exactly are the semantics of all of that? 18:26:43 2..* 18:26:49 is it stacky? 18:26:49 oklopol: 1..* actually 18:26:51 and yes 18:26:54 1 = push a 1 18:27:02 hm wait 18:27:03 it'll have to be 18:27:06 1~..* 18:27:08 1 = push a 1 18:27:10 ~ = swap 18:27:11 1..*, push 1, n 1 .. => [1.. n], * => 1*2*...*n ? 18:27:12 .. = inclusive range 18:27:15 thought so 18:27:16 * = multiply or product for list 18:27:17 tusho: anyway, many lists in Overload are created using u or U and the map operator e 18:27:26 [1~..*]:fact 18:27:28 [...] = lambda 18:27:38 : = syntax that reads up to a space and uses that as a name with quotation on TOS 18:27:39 let me compile Overload for Linux, it's so long since I last messed with it that the only compiler executable here is for DOS 18:27:46 s.compiler.interp. 18:28:28 there is an overload interp? 18:28:32 not really 18:28:35 why didn't i know that 18:28:36 I have at least two interps 18:28:38 not really? 18:28:43 neither is finished 18:28:51 the first is more finished but was rapidly becoming unmaintainable 18:29:02 and the second is less finished and also very slow and probably wouldn't scale 18:29:19 and 18:29:21 the third is ninjacode 18:29:52 cool ninjas 18:31:08 hmm... my current C++ Overload interp segfaults whenever I load the program from a file 18:31:22 that needs fixing before I can start messing with it 18:31:25 also, it's unmaintainable 18:31:36 because just about every command there messed with the internals of stuff 18:31:39 I hadn't abstracted properly 18:31:48 come to think of it, the Perl version didn't really abstract properly either 18:35:20 hmm... ok, fixed the segfault, it seemed I was fclosing the same file twice 18:35:29 now to fix the other valgrind errors... 18:38:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:39:48 hi oerjan 18:40:33 hi ais523 18:43:05 -!- oklofok has joined. 18:43:42 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:48:42 oklofok: anyway, if you're planning to do some INTERCAL programming, it's probably a good idea to look up the system library 18:48:54 it's documented in pit/lib/syslib.doc in the distribution 18:49:06 basically there are a lot of pre-defined routines for things like addition (that's (1000)) that you can use 18:49:19 -!- Corun has joined. 18:50:57 i'll probably go for a simple interp later on 18:51:14 i'll probably make addition myself 18:51:21 i like to reinvent the wheel 18:51:45 addition is nontrivial in INTERCAL, see my sig for the shortest example I know (although my sig has whitespace added for readability) and that uses lots of nonstandard extensions 18:51:57 -!- ais523 has left (?). 18:51:57 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:52:09 * ais523 cycles to show the sig in question 18:53:48 don't worry, i don't get scared of[f] the language if i fail. 18:54:15 anyway, to implement addition in INTERCAL yourself, think of the way long addition works in binary, and use a loop 18:54:55 i'm not doing it right now, but i'll try tomorrow, perhaps 18:59:08 ais523: i think i'll write an intercal compiler 18:59:15 it doesn't sound like lexing is too hard 18:59:20 i mean, 5 operators 18:59:20 tusho: lexing isn't normally that hard 18:59:25 a few syntaxes 18:59:27 and that's about it 18:59:29 ais523: nor parsing 18:59:38 tusho: read the array subscript syntax when it comes to parsing, that's an utter pain to get right 18:59:44 ais523: what is it 18:59:47 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:59:56 so much so that there's a clause in the INTERCAL-72 standard designed to make things easier for implementors 19:00:19 tusho: tail1[1][2][3] in C is equivalent to ,1 SUB #1 #2 #3 in INTERCAL 19:00:28 wow, what 19:00:29 the issue being that there's nothing between the arguments to SUB 19:00:37 that sounds impossible 19:00:39 :\ 19:00:40 this makes nested array subscripting ambiguous unless you're very careful 19:00:46 ais523: so what' s the clause 19:00:53 and does it need arrays for tc 19:01:01 tusho: no, it doesn't need arrays for TC 19:01:10 lemme guess, everything uses them 19:01:16 yes 19:01:56 anyway, the clause states that you can't open a ' ' or " " group an array subscript if the character you use could theoretically close a group 19:02:17 otherwise, you need infinite lookahead to be able to parse nested array subscripting 19:02:26 with that clause you only need one-token lookahead 19:02:36 and 'theoretically close a group' means 'based on the tokens received so far' 19:03:55 afair, arrays actually don't even help with TC since each array is limited in size by its type and dimension 19:04:07 yes, that's it 19:04:11 you can declare very large arrays 19:04:18 but each has a number of dimensions fixed at compile time 19:04:32 and the size of each dimension has to fit in a 32-bit integer, although can be changed at runtime 19:05:51 anyway, http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/pit/tests/arrtest.doc is an essay I wrote on the subject of parsing array subscripts in INTERCAL 19:05:58 it's actually a text file, though, although it ends .doc 19:06:33 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:06:34 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:08:39 afair from previous discussion, one way of getting TC is by the STASH and RETRIEVE commands which give you an unbounded stack for each variable 19:08:41 it's a testament to the difficulty of parsing array syntax that C-INTERCAL didn't get it right until version 0.25 19:08:46 oerjan: that's the main way 19:08:52 you can also do it using multithreaded programming 19:10:18 CLC-INTERCAL definitely gets it right nowadays, it can even handle nondeterministic grammars 19:25:33 -!- oklofok has joined. 19:26:16 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:27:42 -!- Corun has joined. 19:39:07 * ais523 downloads the ICFP contest LiveCD 19:39:21 does anyone here want to help make an ICFP contest team? 19:39:31 atm I have nobody to work with 19:41:08 * oerjan won't, but his mind suddenly ponders the very hypothetical idea of an INTERCAL entry winning... 19:41:42 oerjan: I seriously doubt I'll win, but it would be interesting to have at least enough INTERCAL in the entry for it to register on the leaderboard 19:43:06 that would be beautiful 19:43:27 (i don't really have have time for the contest :( ) 19:43:43 maybe I should quickly code up a practical language that compiles into INTERCAL to use 19:43:48 ais523: it'd be nicer to win it with unlambda 19:43:50 and just submit the resulting INTERCAL 19:43:59 because you know. you can read intercal. 19:44:00 tusho: yes, but Unlambda's near-impossible to modify once you've written it 19:44:10 I want to use something I can read 19:44:26 can't you compile something sane to unlambda? 19:44:45 lament: yes, you can 19:44:49 but then you'd just submit the sane program 19:44:52 ais523: how about iota 19:44:55 sane->iota 19:44:57 submit the iota 19:45:10 (input is passed as an argument to the function evaluates to) 19:45:11 (result is output) 19:45:16 using lambda calculus lists 19:45:18 and integer characters 19:45:29 tusho: jot has IO, or possibly that was zot 19:46:06 iota is more fun though 19:50:07 an iota more fun 19:50:56 heh 19:56:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("Rebooting"). 19:58:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:07:40 -!- jix has joined. 20:20:54 -!- hotidlerchick has joined. 20:21:46 * ais523 is loading up the ICFP contest disk image under qemu 20:21:52 it works pretty well, actually 20:22:42 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 20:26:15 -!- jix has joined. 20:29:35 -!- ais523 has quit ("rebooting, will be back soon"). 20:33:32 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:40:38 GregorR: I figured out how to blocks/functions in plof, really elegantly 20:41:03 err 20:41:05 how to differenciate 20:49:53 -!- ais523_ has joined. 20:50:09 Hello from inside the ICFP live-cd! 20:50:20 ais523_: screenshot or it didn't happen 20:50:32 ok 20:52:18 uploading now 20:52:32 (I took the screenshot outside the live-CD, which is why I'm posting this here) 20:52:57 http://imagebin.ca/view/D3w7z0Iy.html 20:53:40 It seems I was one of the few people to actually download the image 20:54:26 ais523: ow 20:54:27 why the bars 20:54:32 annoyingly, it seems to use a US keyboard mapping 20:54:46 * Sgeo <3 VMware Server 20:54:55 I think they're part of the default theme in Knoppix 20:55:06 ais523: not in the right place, obviously 20:55:11 * Sgeo thinks it might be virtualization issues 20:55:17 Sgeo: Nice freedom zero you got there eh. 20:56:03 Sgeo: I doubt it, the bars are only on the panel at the bottom and inside the Konsole window 20:56:17 It's easy-to-use, and free (as in beer). For some reason, that beats out difficult-to-use and Free (although it's free too) 20:56:53 the bars don't go over the icons, the desktop background, nor text whether white or black, so I think it's the theme 20:56:53 Sgeo: I'm pretty sure I've seen you go 'eww, propietary software' in the past. 20:56:57 Just letting you reflect over the irony. 20:57:29 maybe I'm less of an open-source fanatic now? 20:57:40 Sgeo: I didn't find qemu hard to use at all 20:57:41 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 20:59:17 -!- ais523_ has quit ("that's enough showing off for now, I think"). 20:59:34 Sgeo: Pretty abrupt change 20:59:38 anyway qemu is trivial 20:59:49 but you seem to balk whenever the console comes up so maybe not 20:59:56 anyway, it seems I'm one of the few people who downloaded the LiveCD before they slashdotted their own servers 21:00:05 I noticed it was up for download before they announced it, you see 21:00:20 so this could in theory give me a headstart if they don't get the problems fixed within a day 21:00:22 somehow I doubt it though 21:00:52 -!- pikhq has left (?). 21:03:49 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 21:10:43 -!- AnMaster has joined. 21:11:56 back, and night 21:15:36 nack, and bite. 21:15:46 hi AnMaster 21:16:05 ais523, yeah been on train for about 5 hours, so going to sleep 21:16:12 makes sense 21:16:13 just got back from norway 21:16:47 it's all his fault! 21:19:02 ais523, just send a /msg if you want something and I'll read it tomorrow 21:19:07 ok 21:51:02 la. 21:53:23 oklopol! 21:53:26 well 21:53:29 oklofok! 21:54:22 cool 21:54:29 quite cool indeed yes. 22:07:54 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:08:17 -!- sohotidlerchick has joined. 22:09:09 -!- hotidlerchick has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:10:30 -!- Corun has joined. 22:14:36 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 22:14:44 tusho: Uh 22:14:51 tusho: Blocks and functions are differentiated. 22:14:55 GregorR: I mean 22:14:57 without extra syntax 22:15:01 like you had before 22:15:41 ... I don't have any extra syntax. 22:17:07 GregorR: You did, though 22:17:08 :{} vs {} 22:17:15 That's Plof 2, man. 22:17:17 Get up to date. 22:17:29 -!- oklopol has joined. 22:17:39 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:17:44 -!- wookie has joined. 22:21:50 GregorR: Yeah, well, shush and listen. 22:21:59 The problem is essentially that of dynamic variables. 22:22:04 You want it to return from where you put it in the code. 22:22:10 But it returns it in someone else's code jabbering with it. 22:22:14 GregorR: Solution - lexical returns. 22:22:16 Problem solved. 22:30:28 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:38:00 I have to get around to writing my functional extensions to INTERCAL some day 22:40:01 making, finally, the ultimate Greenspun language! 22:55:47 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 22:58:21 -!- sohotidlerchick has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:01:17 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:13:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 23:28:09 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 23:41:08 -!- timotiis has quit ("leaving"). 23:41:15 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1""). 23:45:59 oklopol: so now it's sohotidlerchick 23:46:03 not hotidlerchick? 23:53:16 so it seems 23:53:59 oh, it left 23:57:19 oklopololol 23:59:02 -!- oklofok has joined. 23:59:02 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:59:05 oklofok: 'IT'? 23:59:37 tusho: he doesnt know the persons gender 23:59:45 seemed appropriate 23:59:51 augur: that's not what i use in that case, in general. 23:59:56 i had no reason 23:59:58 augur: 'chick' 2008-07-11: 00:00:06 tusho: 'internet' 00:00:22 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:00:31 i guess i was referring to the nick, dunno. 00:00:36 augur: i could be female 00:00:37 am i? 00:00:59 I DONT KNOW 00:01:02 OMG HAVE I RAPED A GIRL? 00:01:03 ::cries:: 00:01:15 are ya? 12-yr-olds are the best :o 00:01:35 12 year old girls, boo. 00:01:44 12 year old boys, thats where its at 00:01:47 :P 00:01:52 you and your silly funs 00:02:00 I AM AFRAID SO AUGUR 00:02:07 ::silly funs oklofok:: 00:02:26 FUN FOR YOUR LIFE 00:04:05 ::lovelove:: 00:38:13 augur: Only if you're a priest. 00:38:29 (the boy need not be an altar boy, though it is prefered) 00:38:34 oh right 00:38:37 -!- wookie has quit. 00:38:45 but 12 year old boys are still fun to rape over the internets 01:21:31 -!- tusho has quit. 01:40:47 -!- oklofok has quit (Connection timed out). 01:45:32 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 01:48:55 -!- oklopol has joined. 01:52:10 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:52:30 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 01:52:38 -!- cherez has quit ("Leaving."). 01:57:46 http://flickr.com/photos/psygnisfive/collections/72157606093628410/ 01:57:55 my trip in europe so far :D 02:10:07 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:28:51 Get your ass here you faggot queer 02:41:32 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:17:42 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:27:21 -!- cherez has joined. 04:15:10 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:52:59 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 05:37:11 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:37:38 -!- GregorR has joined. 06:02:20 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 06:12:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:12 -!- cherez has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:12 -!- AnMaster has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:15 -!- moozilla has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:16 -!- cmeme has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:16 -!- dbc has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:16 -!- SimonRC has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:16 -!- fizzie has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:16 -!- lifthras1ir has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:16 -!- shachaf has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:16 -!- atsampson has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:16 -!- Dewi has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:16 -!- Polar has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:17 -!- Quendus has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:17 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:19 -!- Deewiant has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:19 -!- lament has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:19 -!- mtve has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:19 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:20 -!- GregorR has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:21 -!- oklopol has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:22 -!- sebbu has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:22 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:18:28 -!- Corun has joined. 06:18:28 -!- GregorR has joined. 06:18:28 -!- cherez has joined. 06:18:28 -!- oklopol has joined. 06:18:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:18:28 -!- AnMaster has joined. 06:18:28 -!- fizzie has joined. 06:18:28 -!- lifthras1ir has joined. 06:18:28 -!- shachaf has joined. 06:18:28 -!- Dewi has joined. 06:18:28 -!- atsampson has joined. 06:18:28 -!- Quendus has joined. 06:18:29 -!- moozilla has joined. 06:18:29 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:18:29 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 06:18:29 -!- sebbu has joined. 06:18:29 -!- Polar has joined. 06:18:29 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 06:18:29 -!- Deewiant has joined. 06:18:29 -!- cmeme has joined. 06:18:29 -!- lament has joined. 06:18:29 -!- dbc has joined. 06:18:29 -!- mtve has joined. 06:18:29 -!- SimonRC has joined. 06:19:16 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=44.932650,+-123.228470&ie=UTF8&ll=44.93315,-123.228471&spn=0.017226,0.025578&t=h&z=15 06:25:39 does your mum live there? 06:26:00 we'd have to zoom out to see her 06:27:07 -!- mtve has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:33:52 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 06:38:03 oklopol, lament: YOU'VE BEEN RICKREALL'D 06:42:43 rick is your mum? 06:44:38 but thanks for clearing that up, i didn't actually open that 06:45:47 GregorR: i don't get it 06:46:05 oh 06:46:10 ha 06:53:37 -!- vinicius has joined. 07:05:51 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:05:51 -!- oklofok has joined. 07:29:47 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:30:30 -!- GregorR has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:18:50 -!- mtve has joined. 09:01:53 -!- sohotidlerchick has joined. 09:04:31 -!- oklopol has joined. 09:05:01 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:17:00 -!- wookie has joined. 09:41:21 from SSE instruction set: PSADBW Packed Sum of Absolute Differences of Bytes Into a Word 09:41:23 what's next? an instruction to take the difference of two numbers and add that to the distance to the sun in millimeters? 09:41:39 RISC is way saner than CSIC 10:00:27 -!- augur has joined. 10:31:35 -!- atsampson has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 10:52:56 -!- atsampson has joined. 11:02:10 -!- jix has joined. 11:13:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Remote closed the previous member app"). 11:15:47 -!- Hiato has joined. 11:20:35 -!- sohotidlerchick has changed nick to hotidlerchick. 12:08:37 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 12:38:12 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:56:18 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 13:07:43 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 13:14:14 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:14:25 -!- oklopol has joined. 13:24:02 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:29:31 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:38:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:53:13 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:07:54 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:07:57 -!- oklofok has joined. 14:10:33 -!- augur has joined. 14:12:46 hi everyone 14:22:53 or noone 14:23:01 pity 14:23:13 maybe I could just sit here monologuing until someone tells me to stop spamming 14:23:20 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 14:25:19 I had a new idea for a language 14:25:25 I've long liked the spirit behind Java2K 14:25:28 but I don't like the implementation 14:25:44 because you basically just have to repeat your program lots of times to increase the chance that it works 14:25:54 and having one command that always works and tells you if another command did seems like cheating 14:26:14 so I've been pondering the idea of a Funge-like language where all the instructions have a small chance of being NOPs rather than what they normally do 14:26:22 o 14:26:32 I think that the language may end up deterministically Turing-complete 14:26:34 but I'm not sure yet 14:26:41 because things like wrapping will still be reliable 14:27:00 and I was trying to do cat in my head, although I haven't succeded yet 14:27:10 java2k has an instruction like that :o 14:27:22 oklofok: yes, I know, I don't want any instructions like that 14:27:24 i knew it wasn't as great as it sounded. 14:27:40 it should be possible to determine whether instructions were buggy using nothing but buggy instructions 14:27:48 as an example, you can reliably test whether the top of the stack is 0 14:27:56 by using an if at right angles to your current program flow 14:28:10 because that will go up/down according to if the TOS is 0 14:28:21 but if it's buggy, it'll go right instead because that's the way the IP was going beforehan 14:28:25 s/$/d/ 14:28:29 indeed.yep 14:29:35 so you can do that reliably given wrapping 14:32:00 oklo :D 14:32:08 :D 14:33:15 * ais523 deletes http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainSub 14:33:30 it seems it wasn't intended to be an esolang, and the person who wrote the text didn't post it to Esolang originally 14:33:37 therefore, it was probably a copyvio too 14:33:57 What exactly *was* it? 14:34:12 it was a bit like PEBBLE, I think 14:34:17 but written entirely in asm 14:34:27 intended to be a serious language for teaching purposes, it seems 14:34:29 read the talk page 14:34:33 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:BrainSub 14:34:57 "2- The idea behind BrainSub is to eliminate the "esoteric" label of a Brainfuck derivative." 14:35:20 also, apparently Esolang isn't good enough for the author... 14:35:36 -!- wookie has left (?). 14:38:03 did anyone say anything in the last two minutes, apart from me? 14:38:09 my connection went down for a bit 14:40:09 so 14:40:18 any really interesting and different esolangs you know of ais? 14:40:32 it depends on what you mean by different, here 14:40:34 different from what? 14:40:37 langs in general? 14:40:39 esolangs in general? 14:40:41 usual paradigms? 14:40:43 different as in not your typical esolang 14:40:47 usual paradigms yes. 14:40:52 i like weird paradigms 14:40:54 well, HQ9+ is pretty strange 14:40:57 esoteric paradigms 14:41:03 HS9+ is stupid :P 14:41:09 yep 14:41:17 although it makes a good counterexample for lots of stuf 14:41:19 s/$/f/ 14:41:34 if you've never come across concatenative langs before, look up Underload 14:41:37 that's one of mine 14:41:47 it's /almost/ a mainstream paradigm by now, though 14:43:00 concatenative languages are ancient 14:43:06 and mainstream if you're a nasa engineer :p 14:43:10 really? 14:43:11 or they were 14:43:15 do they use Joy 14:43:18 nasa used to, or still uses, forth 14:43:18 or is there another one by now? 14:43:28 well, forth doesn't really count 14:43:41 ofcourse it does 14:43:44 or so says wiki 14:43:45 :p 14:43:46 it's quite different from the typical eso concatenative language 14:43:55 eso concatenatives, feh. :P 14:44:02 oh dude 14:44:21 it seems that brains might work fundamentally like forth, when it comes to concept manipulation 14:45:23 postscript is supposedly concatenative 14:45:27 I'm not convinced that FOrth is concatenative 14:45:48 its if-then structure is wrong, for instance 14:46:15 concatenative langs work by manipulating code as data on the stack and then running it 14:46:26 /stack-based/ langs are common 14:46:36 but most of them have more conventional control structures 14:46:59 i dont get its if-then structure, to be honest 14:47:04 PostScript looks concatenative to me 14:47:07 though 14:47:15 it is manipulating code on the stack to do conditionals 14:47:16 i wonder 14:47:38 we should do an experiment to see if kids of certain kinds of languages learn certain kinds of programming languages easier than others 14:47:50 e.g. do irish kids learn lisp more easilly than forth? 14:48:14 do japanese kids learn forth more easily that smalltalk? 14:48:15 etc 14:48:33 ah, the issue with Forth is that it doesn't have formalised code quotations 14:48:39 ah 14:48:40 so it doesn't fit my idea of what a concatenative lang is like 14:48:56 16:44… augur: it seems that brains might work fundamentally like forth, when it comes to concept manipulation <<< hmm? 14:49:02 it doesn't have concatenative flow structure, even though it has a stack 14:49:16 just read an article about someone having written some bogus about this 14:49:40 augur: anyway, other unusual paradigms: have you seen SMATINY? 14:49:44 oklofok: some research has suggested that regardless of the languages people, they mentally represent events with the order Actor-Patient-Action 14:49:53 ais523: no, whats smatiny? 14:50:02 http://esolangs.org/wiki/SMATINY 14:50:08 i read an article written by someone who had read that article :P 14:50:17 the one on Language Log? 14:50:25 have no idea. 14:50:34 my http://esolangs.org/wiki/BackFlip has the same paradigm, I think, although BackFlip is two-dimensional 14:50:37 anyway, that sounds very counterintuitive 14:50:37 it probably was 14:50:43 i think you misread the post 14:50:48 perhaps 14:50:58 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=326 14:51:06 it was during the night, near morning, and i just quickly browsed through 14:51:11 hes talking about how it doesnt reveal anything about language structure but rather about cognitive structure 14:51:22 the newspapers are talking about language structure tho 14:51:27 ah, indeed. 14:51:31 whereas the article is about cognitive structure 14:51:32 and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hannah has some similarities, but isn't reversible 14:51:50 as does http://esolangs.org/wiki/Black for that matter, which I created trying to make BackFlip TC 14:52:00 well anyway, i doubt that has any truth in it, what the brain sucks most at, is storing info before knowing how it's going to be used 14:52:21 actor patient action does exactly that, makes you remember two objects, and then gives the relation 14:52:34 but i'm no psychologist ofc, just counterintuitive imo. 14:53:41 ill take a look 14:54:10 it doesnt seem counter intuitive to me actually 14:54:26 i mean, think about it, youve got a big semantic jumble of things 14:54:39 ok, pick any one or two and relate them somehow 14:54:45 and then relate that 14:54:47 and so on 14:55:06 once youve gotten the two things, you just look up the relation 14:55:26 tho it might be the case that there is nothing to look it up in, that these ARE the fundamental structures the brain manipulates 14:56:18 perhaps, perhaps. i don't really believe there are any "fundamental structures" like that 14:56:43 there seem to be tho, if this study is correct. 14:57:08 interesting stuff, if it is 14:58:36 so those languages are silly. :P 14:59:22 silly languages, so sad :( 14:59:39 quite 15:00:49 black is "symmetric"? what does that mean? 15:01:19 symmetric pieces of code are equal? 15:01:25 reversible? 15:01:42 augur: err what languages are silly? :D 15:01:59 the ones ais linked me to 15:02:33 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 15:02:57 both seem nice 15:03:29 you know me, im not hugely a fan of unusable languages ;) 15:03:32 ais523, hi 15:03:38 hi AnMaster 15:03:40 ais523, any questions related to ffungi? 15:03:46 not yet 15:03:53 although I haven't yet updated C-INTERCAL for your changes 15:04:50 ais523, as for the warnings? :) 15:05:07 AnMaster: they're functions which aren't static because they're linked against code the compiler doesn't know about 15:05:18 the warnings are mostly legit, just gcc fails to appreciate exactly what is going on 15:05:26 ais523, well then shouldn't they be in the header of the file? 15:05:41 then they'd be visible externally, but I can put them there if you think it's cleaner 15:05:46 hm 15:05:55 it seems wrong to me to put prototypes that are only used by one file in a header 15:06:00 at least, one file visible to the compilation 15:06:02 I guess so 15:06:12 maybe I could put the prototypes in the .c file? 15:06:17 you could 15:06:21 that would shut up the warnings, I think 15:06:42 do you put extern in the file that use those functions? 15:06:50 yes 15:06:56 in the C file? 15:07:08 there isn't a corresponding header for technical reasons which would take a while to explain 15:07:23 one issue is that such stuff can get out of sync and cause bugs that are hard to track down 15:07:39 happened in crossfire for example (I found it using gcc's -combine) 15:08:02 AnMaster: yes, I know, but it would be utterly impractical to try to create a header file that prototyped for both the cfunge end and the C-INTERCAL end 15:08:19 hm 15:08:26 I guess so 15:09:08 ais523, be sure to put in a comment or something to say "if you change these also change..." 15:09:18 maybe a good idea 15:09:28 * ais523 wonders if anyone would dare change them anyway 15:14:01 hm? 15:14:33 AnMaster: how many people in the world do you think are likely to mess around with the internals of fffungi? 15:14:40 or even attempt to do so? 15:14:48 well not me at least 15:14:51 I bet only you 15:14:59 yes, that's what I thought too 15:15:00 but even you could forget, say after a few years 15:15:28 AnMaster: changing the proto of a function that apparently isn't used at all should be a red flag for any programmer 15:16:43 what if it gets used in the future from inside the same file? 15:17:06 an interesting concept 15:17:22 maybe a comment would be worthwhile 15:17:29 especially as there's a struct that has to be the same too 15:17:35 indeed 15:17:47 the struct, what is the name of it? 15:18:35 ick_ipposdeltatype 15:19:22 struct ick_ipposdeltatype 15:19:22 { 15:19:22 long long ix, iy, dx, dy; 15:19:22 }; 15:19:23 hrrm 15:19:31 why long long? 15:19:34 see ya guys 15:20:06 ais523, those are funge coordinates then FUNGEVECTORTYPE would be the type to use 15:20:06 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:21:35 AnMaster: to ensure that it's long enough to fit IPs and deltas even if I switch to 64-bit Funge some day 15:21:35 and because it doesn't matter if it's too long 15:21:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:21:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:21:55 hm 15:22:18 I have been pondering a 128-bit funge, but it wouldn't be portable 15:22:37 gcc extensions 15:24:34 __int128_t or something like that iirc 15:25:01 well, if they do have a 128-bit type, then int128_t would be a perfectly portable name for it 15:25:16 but presumably they wanted intmax_t to be 64 bit for some reason... 15:26:38 also it would be insanely slow on 32-bit platforms 15:27:10 not really, most platforms should have the instruction set to generalise their arithmetic to any number of bits 15:27:21 it would only take 4 times as long on 32-bit, if I remember correctly 15:27:36 except for things like multiplication where you wouldn't have hardware acceleration 15:27:51 * ais523 is used to having to do arithmetic by hand when programming in INTERCAL, anyway 15:27:58 hah 15:28:27 well due to cache size 32-bit funge is quite a lot faster than 64-bit funge on my 64-bit sempron 15:28:37 cpu[1 x AMD Sempron(tm) Processor 3300+ (AuthenticAMD) @ 1.80GHz w/ 128 KB L2 Cache] 15:28:44 (max speed 2 GHz) 15:29:05 AnMaster: are you planning to enter the ICFP, by the way? 15:29:11 ICFP? 15:29:12 s/,/ contest,/ 15:29:17 http://icfpcontest.org 15:29:20 it starts this evening 15:29:23 it's a programming competition 15:29:38 in what language? 15:29:41 what type of tasks 15:29:43 any lang of your choice 15:29:49 and as for what type of tasks, they've varied a lot 15:30:02 there's a lot of informal rivalry as to which programming language is the best, you see 15:30:10 and the ICFP seems designed as an attempt to settle it 15:30:22 ah, no I don't plan to enter it 15:30:39 pity really, I don't have anyone to team up with so I'll have to try it by myself 15:30:45 not any lang this year 15:31:05 Deewiant: yes, you can submit an executable 15:31:14 also you can bundle an interp with a program 15:31:15 oh, okay 15:31:17 they intend it to be any lang 15:31:23 just they couldn't fit them all on the CD 15:31:29 ah, right 15:31:31 Deewiant: are you entering 15:31:32 that's what that was about then 15:31:37 probably not 15:31:45 I'll take a look at the problems 15:32:00 I doubt I'll bother to solve it but who knows :-) 15:32:27 there's a lot of informal rivalry as to which programming language is the best, you see 15:32:27 and the ICFP seems designed as an attempt to settle it 15:32:31 that is silly 15:32:43 well, yes 15:32:48 but it's an interesting task anyway 15:32:50 some languages are good at some tasks but not at other ones 15:32:51 and so on 15:32:55 again, yes 15:33:00 normally it's biased in favour of functional langs 15:33:04 that's what the F stands for 15:33:29 ais523, if I ever needed to program a telephony switch I would probably use erlang 15:33:35 not really, C++ won a couple. 15:33:45 vinicius: I didn't say their attempt to bias worked 15:33:46 It's just that reality is biased in favour of functional langs. ;) 15:34:18 -!- tusho has joined. 15:34:41 hi ais523 15:34:45 hi tusho 15:34:49 tusho won 15:34:53 i win 15:34:59 by 4 seconds 15:49:49 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:49:59 -!- jix has joined. 15:59:18 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 16:16:11 tusho: AnMaster: anyway, what do you think of my Funge/Java2K crossover idea? 16:16:24 pretty pointless 16:16:41 well, it's meant as a challenge to code in 16:16:50 certainly it's less usable than ordinary Funge 16:17:53 we already have malbolge for that :-P 16:18:23 Deewiant: well, yes, but having multiple interesting coding challenges is one of the things that draws me to esolangs 16:18:34 I don't think anyone but me's ever used INTERCAL due to its expressiveness, for instance 16:18:43 heh 16:19:33 ais523, hm? 16:19:53 AnMaster: basically a Funge version where commands have a small chance of being NOPs rather than doing what they're meant to do 16:20:08 so combining Java2Ks randomness with Funge to make a lang which is similar to Java2K but more interesting 16:21:05 ais523, is there ever any way to code something that works every time using that? 16:21:10 I think so 16:21:14 but I'm not sure 16:21:18 that's why I find it interesting 16:23:49 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:25:00 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:53:18 -!- hotidlerchick has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:53:33 -!- hotidlerchick has joined. 16:56:27 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 17:07:59 -!- ijxo has joined. 17:18:46 -!- Hiato has joined. 17:49:33 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:49:51 No all. 17:49:56 no? 17:50:11 no=hi in Sine 17:59:53 Nu... 17:59:59 hey all 17:59:59 :D 18:05:33 z 18:06:52 -!- ais523 has quit ("brb"). 18:20:08 -!- timotiis has joined. 18:23:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:23:14 wb ais523 18:23:17 HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA 18:23:36 that was quick 18:23:52 you managed to say that before my GUI had got into a sufficient state to view what you said 18:23:58 brilliant 18:26:15 * ais523 loads up the ICFP LiveCD 18:26:25 ready for the start in an hour and a half or so 18:26:37 ICFP? 18:26:50 Sgeo: ICFP contest = a programming competition 18:26:54 I'm looking for teammates 18:27:14 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 18:27:24 held over the internet, there are generally two contests with identical tasks, one lasting 24 hours, one lasting 72 hours, starting simultaneously 18:27:55 * Sgeo thinks the IRTC results in prettier stuff 18:28:04 IRTC? 18:28:17 The Internet Ray Tracing Competition apparently 18:28:21 so Sgeo doesn't get what the icfp is about at al 18:28:21 l 18:28:25 cool 18:28:26 Internet Ray-Tracing Competition 18:28:34 different nature of tasks, though 18:28:37 I know 18:28:39 programming vs. computer graphics 18:28:39 Still totally different, Sgeo 18:29:07 ais523: so I take it you won't be doing much else while it's on 18:29:18 I know. I'm not allowed to mention a different unrelated competition>? 18:29:23 other than constantly asking #esoteric for programming help? 18:29:27 ais523: syes 18:29:28 *yes 18:29:33 probably not 18:29:42 shame 18:32:06 * ais523 wonders why the code has to run on their servers this year 18:32:19 maybe they're having another AI-for-a-simple-game competition 18:32:22 they like doing those 18:32:53 i'd probably like doing those too 18:33:10 oklofok: maybe you could help? 18:33:46 ais523: I'LL HELP 18:34:05 tusho: actually, you may be able to, depending on the task 18:34:13 ais523: I think you should do X. 18:34:16 And not Y. 18:34:17 Y is wrong. 18:34:17 if it's something where we can just code independently without treading on each other's toes 18:34:26 No. Your system is wrong. Rewrite it. Now. 18:34:28 ais523: i could help, most likely, if i had slept last night. 18:34:32 (2 hours later) Oh look, the deadline just passed. 18:34:53 tusho: well, if you say such things after the first few minutes, I'll ignore them 18:34:56 also trying to get ten thousand polygon zombies to run on pygame is not as easy as you might think. 18:35:11 but feel free to read the problem and submit suggestions as to how I should tackle it 18:35:13 did i say ten thousand? actually going for a hundred thousand 18:35:18 I'll probably ignore those too, but it will make me feel better 18:36:04 the problem is i'm too stubborn to make any real optimizations until i know i don't have any stupid bottlenecks as it it. 18:36:06 *is 18:36:12 and i don't really have any debugging tools 18:36:14 except print 18:36:31 -!- ais523_ has joined. 18:36:59 hi tusho 18:37:11 darn 18:37:14 :P 18:37:21 * ais523_ is on mibbit on Iceweasel on Knoppix on qemu on Ubuntu 18:37:27 trying to see how slow I can get this to go 18:37:32 it's reasonable, actually 18:37:36 ais523_: talk about "colossus on clay feet" 18:37:42 considering that I'm using qemu not kqemu at the moment 18:37:53 and so this is on an entirely software-virtualised system 18:38:20 ais523_: run safari in pearpc in jsmips 18:38:25 and then load mibbit 18:38:30 on top of all that other stuff 18:38:43 the window's tiny, though, I think it's emulating 640 by 480 res, and Mibbit has a lot of stuff around the IRC window itself 18:39:11 * ais523_ wonders why they have Iceweasel on here when they were so short of space 18:39:46 obviously, you have to make a digital rube goldberg machine 18:39:49 that runs 'hello world' 18:40:10 do you know of a hello-world in RUBE? 18:40:18 probably someone's done one already 18:40:21 heh 18:40:52 http://catseye.tc/projects/rube/eg/hello.rub 18:42:17 -!- ais523_ has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 18:42:27 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:42:58 -!- ais523__ has joined. 18:43:41 ais523_: there? 18:43:46 apparently not 18:43:55 this is from Mibbit under Konqueror 18:44:09 so why they included two web browsers when they needed space for programming language interps I don't know 18:44:15 ais523__: hi 18:44:24 (the interps are more important than the compilers because you can submit an executable) 18:44:27 and hi tusho 18:44:49 anyway, that's enough silly virtualisation for now, I think 18:44:56 -!- ais523__ has quit (Client Quit). 18:56:03 does anyone here know how to artifically limit the number of lines of the screen a Linux terminal uses? 19:00:53 apparently not 19:01:06 never mind, I think I found a different way to work around the problem 19:07:20 -!- vinicius has left (?). 19:27:00 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:27:02 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:29:16 okokoko 19:30:53 hotidlerchick: ha 19:30:55 you're obviously oklopol 19:30:57 you just proved it 19:32:13 :) 19:32:53 only oklopol can say okokoko? 19:34:11 besides 19:34:17 I think he'd go more like 19:34:18 o 19:34:19 oko 19:34:22 okoko 19:34:26 okokoko 19:34:29 okokokoko 19:34:53 and so on 19:36:34 enthusiastically 19:36:36 hotidlerchick: you are oklopol :p 19:36:54 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 19:37:29 whatever you say 19:37:51 * ais523 definitely remembers whoising hotidlerchick and geting the same hostname as someone in this channel before 19:37:59 I can't remember who, though 19:38:11 -!- hotidlerchick has changed nick to oklopolor. 19:38:18 a88-113-91-209.elisa-laajakaista.fi 19:38:33 vs 19:38:33 dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe6cdf00-4.dhcp.inet.fi 19:38:40 tusho: there isn't a hostname clash right now, hotidlerchick's getting better at sockpuppeting 19:38:49 :) 19:38:49 bah 19:41:58 in theory, though, I still have the results of that old /whois in my logs 19:42:04 let me try grepping them, if they haven't rotated yet 19:44:31 [[ 19:44:34 [Tue Jun 3 2008] [21:43:28] Join oklopol has joined this channel (n=nnscript@spark.turku.fi). 19:44:34 [Tue Jun 3 2008] [21:44:22] Quit hotidlerchick has left this server (Remote closed the connection). 19:44:34 [Tue Jun 3 2008] [21:45:20] http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=163168 19:44:34 [Tue Jun 3 2008] [21:45:30] 314 hotidlerchick n=idler spark.turku.fi * Idler 19:44:34 ]] 19:44:41 I knew I had the near-proof somewhere! 19:44:54 that 314 is a /whowas result, BTW 19:44:55 i guessed 19:45:29 -rw-r--r-- 1 ais523 ais523 5300086 2008-07-11 19:44 irc.freenode.net_#esoteric.log 19:45:33 just for reference 19:45:35 that's a pretty big log 19:45:41 5MB of text is a lot of text 19:50:19 -!- oklofok has joined. 19:51:41 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:53:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:55:02 ais523: i rotate my logs daily 19:55:04 well 19:55:08 colloquy rotates my logs daily 19:55:23 I intend to never rotate, it's not like they're likely to run me out of disk space 19:56:26 what's a smart way of rotating irssi logs 19:56:34 Deewiant: logrotate? 19:57:01 ais523: it's more that it's quicker to view them 19:57:02 does that work while it's running 19:57:04 and grep only what I need 19:57:11 Deewiant: I think so 19:57:22 tusho: I like to be able to grep everything 19:57:29 grep foo * 19:57:31 tada 19:57:33 I need to be able to grep things more than a day old every now and then 19:57:49 also Konversation only shows the tail of the logs 19:57:53 so it's just as easy to read 19:57:57 and I can change the tail amount 19:58:35 * oerjan wonders. if you accidentally delete the whole log directory, will it then be rotating in its grave? 20:00:22 <- now close to 100% puns, on this channel 20:00:43 nah (/me quickly improves the ratio slightly...) 20:01:23 can anyone else load http://icfpcontest.org ? 20:01:59 apparently not 20:02:06 their server's gone down under the traffic of the contest starting... 20:02:30 icfp.eso-std.org! 20:02:40 tusho: no good until I actually find the task description 20:02:47 which is hosted on a mirror as it is, apparently 20:02:52 someone has it i'll mirror it 20:03:03 Sargun: MIRROR: http://xbmodder.us/task.pdf 20:03:14 http://smlnj.org/icfp08-contest/task.html is the original site 20:03:18 wow 20:03:20 it's for NASA 20:03:21 :-P 20:03:23 ah, got it 20:03:25 tusho: probably not 20:03:29 i know 20:03:30 but heh 20:03:31 Recent breakthroughs in higher-order, statically-typed, metaspatial communication will enable data 20:03:31 to be transferred between Mars and Earth almost instantaneously. As such, NASA is seeking exam- 20:03:31 ples of real-time control software to operate its latest model Martian rovers from control centers on 20:03:31 Earth. Since it is well known that the ICFP contest attracts the cr `eme de la cr `eme of programmers 20:03:32 from around the world, NASA has decided to use the current contest as a means of gathering soft- 20:03:34 ware prototypes for their new control system. We are pleased to announce that this year’s winning 20:03:36 entry will in fact be used to control the rover on NASA’s very next mission to Mars!1 20:04:40 why would it be a joke? 20:04:42 UH I DUNNO LOL 20:05:14 who is boegel? 20:06:08 ah 20:06:12 someone in #icfp-contest 20:06:38 oh it's about NASA again. i hate NASA 20:06:39 :| 20:08:30 has anyone a real good visual basic manual? 20:09:24 this also on #icfp-contest? :D 20:09:32 yes 20:14:17 ais523: y u leaf 20:14:27 heh. intercal. 20:14:29 *g* 20:14:31 tusho: it was spamming me with notifications 20:14:52 ais523: http://smlnj.org/icfp08-contest/simulator.html 20:14:55 icfp simulator 20:15:06 haha, I told a1k0n that you maintained c-intercal 20:15:07 tusho: that's terrible. my condolances. 20:19:57 ais523: saml is either an idiot or a troll 20:20:04 I just want the money! I hate NASA! 20:29:58 It's a bit silly to require the program to open a tcp socket. Just as well it could have communicated via stdio. 20:29:59 truth 20:32:07 ais523: aha 20:32:09 this is realtime apparently 20:32:12 eek. 20:32:13 -!- ais523_ has joined. 20:39:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:39:45 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 20:46:32 -!- ijxo has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 20:52:20 THe real task is efficent routing and data gathering. WHich seems pretty functional to me. 20:52:22 no it's not 20:52:22 :| 20:57:11 { I'd like the opposite, actually. The power of Ruby without the strange BS of Rails. } 20:57:16 I've no idea how you could get that mate. 20:57:17 Sorry! 21:01:47 -!- jix has joined. 21:03:08 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit). 21:07:29 -!- pikhq has left (?). 21:08:23 -!- jix has joined. 21:17:06 -!- Hiato has joined. 21:21:19 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 21:50:02 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 21:50:13 Hello dudes. 21:50:37 That computer must hold on for two weeks. 21:50:46 And boy it ain't gonna be easy. 21:50:48 Slereah_: which computer? the one you're on? 21:51:51 Yes. 21:52:04 The fan broke down today. 21:52:20 It's sort of back on again, now that most of the hair inside are out 21:52:32 Slereah_: and why only two weeks? 21:52:40 ais523: he is getting a new one 21:53:03 remember, kids, never let your cat play inside the computer. 21:53:15 They're mine 21:53:53 remember, kids, never play inside the computer. 21:54:13 Bye all 21:54:44 bye 21:54:55 The case is open. 21:55:11 So hair get in the fan sometimes. 21:55:24 And after a few years, it had a luxurious mane. 22:09:10 HALP MY MIDDLE MOUSE BUTTEN DON'T BE DOIN' NOTHIN' 22:11:14 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:12:41 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:12:50 -!- oklopol has joined. 22:13:28 :( 22:13:39 Middle button? 22:13:45 tusho: does it scroll up and down? 22:13:52 My CPU almost melted, so I cannot feel sympathy for your button. 22:14:05 Yes, but it does not open links in new tabs or show a scrollwheel if I click anywhere else! 22:15:06 tusho: control-leftclick? 22:15:15 okokokokokokokokokoko 22:15:15 night 22:15:15 that's open in new tab in Firefox, at least 22:15:37 for people with broken middle buttons 22:15:38 -!- oklopolor has quit ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'"). 22:15:40 ais523: No, that's "right click", from before we invented TWO-BUTTON MICE. 22:15:46 I still want my middle button to work. 22:15:49 It's probably a software problem 22:16:47 less likely, it could be a physical constant of nature shifting slightly. 22:17:58 -!- fxkr has joined. 22:18:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:18:33 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:18:50 wb ais523 22:18:52 HAHAHAHhAHAHAHAHAHHAHA 22:19:07 tusho: well, I said hi to #ESO 22:19:09 I wonder who won? 22:19:14 me 22:19:14 by far 22:19:56 on the other hand, you both just lost the game. 22:20:08 oerjan: aaaaaaaaaaaaar 22:20:10 gh 22:20:13 dfgdfsdfdfsgtju 22:20:14 rw 22:20:31 oerjan: that's mean, you're making tusho spam Agora again 22:20:44 he did that last time? 22:20:52 oerjan: he does that every time he loses the game 22:20:58 ah 22:20:58 he made the game into an Agoran contract 22:20:58 oerjan: i'm in a contractial version of The Game 22:21:09 ooh 22:21:09 however, i'm ignoring it right now, because it's broken 22:21:14 it says 'when a gamer thinks' 22:21:17 not 'when a winning gamer thinks' 22:21:19 tusho: hah, evidence! 22:21:25 so after you lose 22:21:28 you have to spam the lists 22:21:30 forever 22:21:37 since you'll have to think about it to send the message 22:23:03 nasty 22:24:44 so yeah 22:24:45 that needs fixing 22:24:54 tusho: but you can't fix it 22:24:57 because it's a pledge 22:25:00 you'd need without-objection 22:25:04 which takes 4 days... 22:25:07 exactly. 22:25:21 I act on behalf of tusho to think about The Game. 22:25:27 Hah. 22:36:09 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 22:36:16 It's going to be two long weeks :( 22:36:58 ouch 22:38:55 -!- Corun has joined. 22:40:36 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:55:04 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:56:04 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 22:56:17 My god, this is ridiculous 22:56:24 doo doo 22:56:29 I actually have to spin the fan manually before booting the computer 22:56:45 hahahhahahhahah 22:56:48 flinstones pc 22:57:38 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1""). 22:57:46 I hope it won't stop 22:57:55 well, don't lose any fingers 22:58:05 I just can't stand the cries of an overheating CPU. 22:58:19 ("Beep beep beep beep beep") 22:59:31 Slereah2: Open some windows. 23:01:31 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 23:01:33 tusho : I don't think opening a window will help much if the fan stops. 23:01:47 True. 23:01:49 I don't live in Antarctica. 23:02:00 ... 23:02:01 :O 23:02:32 What could help is an actual fan to put above, but I don't have any. 23:08:23 lick it 23:08:41 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:19:48 lament: Om nom nom nom nom. 23:19:49 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:26:49 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:29:37 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 23:45:36 X 23:45:37 Discuss 23:47:47 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:47:56 that's a cross way of putting it 23:51:58 oerjan: how punny 23:52:47 <- now close to 100% puns, on this channel 23:55:10 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 23:55:17 oerjan: what pun 23:56:33 -!- Corun has joined. 2008-07-12: 00:37:35 -!- tusho has quit. 00:43:57 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:44:19 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:52:42 -!- Slereah2 has quit ("kthxbai"). 01:42:38 hey ais 01:42:54 nevermind, hes not here 01:42:55 :_< 01:42:56 >_< 01:43:10 oklopol! :o 01:55:25 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 02:47:41 o 02:57:33 -!- fxkr_ has joined. 03:09:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:10:53 night oklolove 03:10:56 ::bite:: 03:11:33 -!- fxkr has quit (Connection timed out). 03:11:54 -!- fxkr_ has quit. 03:18:18 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:18:20 -!- oklofok has joined. 03:41:33 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:03:57 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:26:06 -!- oklopol has joined. 06:02:33 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:09 ais523 and tusho: if you are reading logs I won't be reachable today, I'm leaving for an airshow 08:26:46 -!- hotidlerchick has joined. 09:14:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 09:24:35 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:32:39 -!- augur has joined. 09:56:05 -!- AnMaster has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:02:09 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:03:56 -!- augur has joined. 10:20:39 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1""). 10:42:01 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Remote closed the previous member app"). 10:54:59 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 11:26:38 -!- Hiato has joined. 11:29:58 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 11:34:03 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 11:46:47 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:56:15 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:43:26 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:43:41 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:46:46 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:41:41 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 14:47:17 holy shit 14:47:25 oklopol: what? 14:47:27 lament: you were in my dream 14:47:33 a-fucking-gain 14:47:39 this time it wasn't irc. 14:48:33 let me start from the beginning, unless someone has something interesting to talk about 14:48:50 so 14:49:04 i was on some page, where you kinda bidded about something 14:49:33 highest bid won, don't remember what i was bidding about, but i won some guy who was apparently like the god of that page, won every bid 14:49:40 well, he got mad 14:49:52 we met at a mall 14:50:07 and turned out i had also kissed his girlfriend 14:50:17 and for some reason this made me take out my gun 14:50:22 and point it at him 14:50:34 he started yelling "shoot me you fucking pussy" 14:50:45 and i was like "give me a reason and i totally will" 14:51:20 he pressed the trigger himself, then, probably realizing i was a pussy 14:51:37 fell down on the floor, no one in the mall noticed 14:51:54 but i figured they might at some point, so i kinda paniced 14:52:03 and then came the lament part 14:52:21 lament was on the cover of an energy drink can 14:52:25 but kinda alive. 14:52:53 and my first thought was looking at his face would instantly tell me what to do :D 14:53:02 kinda warm feeling 14:53:09 not kinda disturbing. 14:53:17 but, all the cans had turned away 14:53:24 and i was devastated 15:08:24 it's not all that weird in writing, but somehow lament was my mentor or something, it was important to see his face after the incident. 15:08:50 no anal sex yet, but it's quite clear the obsession is starting 15:09:10 ais523: how's coding going? 15:09:16 ok I think 15:09:29 but my program still steers the rover into craters too much 15:10:23 can you link the rules? 15:11:58 hmm 15:20:09 this sounds quite fun 15:20:09 -!- tusho has joined. 15:20:26 i should've done it too 15:20:34 hi ais523 15:20:47 i totally wont hat one 15:20:52 *won that 15:20:58 Communication between the server and controller will be over a TCP/IP socket using plain-text messages encoded in ASCII. <<< because martians don't understand english? :P 15:34:34 weird they don't give out the details of the rotation / acceleration, as they're easy to calculate from the state info they give 15:35:33 hmm, actually they give quite a lot of details :P 15:36:19 just have to calc acceleration 15:36:21 oklopol: well, my program calculates the rotation rules atm 15:36:27 from the telemetry 15:36:32 that still doesn't stop it crashing into things, though 15:39:03 how does the server thing work, you use a public server for testing or smth? 15:39:21 oklopol: no, they supplied binaries for it 15:39:26 ah okay. 15:39:26 and you run it on your own system 15:39:38 no source, though, thus causing lots of people to fail to get it working 15:39:38 did you write a visualization so you can see it run? 15:39:45 oklopol: it has its own visualization 15:39:48 oh. 15:40:10 in that case, i would have loved this 15:40:24 oklopol: it's not too late to enter 15:40:29 it doesn't run on Windows, though 15:40:37 only on Linux and Mac OS X, and not easily in either case 15:41:28 well in that case i can't enter, i don't have a linux computer here. 15:41:55 perhaps next year 15:42:07 oklopol: use qemu 15:42:09 they provide a livecd 15:43:38 guess i could. 15:43:58 any restrictions on the language? 15:44:27 oklopol: yes 15:44:30 whatever's on the licd 15:44:32 *livecd 15:44:40 http://www.icfpcontest.org/live-cd.html 15:44:46 if you <3 me, use the eso-std.org mirror that's linkd 15:44:54 unless you want to use scheme or something, 'cause the mzscheme is broken on 1.5 15:50:31 -!- timotiis has joined. 15:56:38 it'd prolly take me till midnight to get that working, don't really feel like it, since the competition has already been on for about 20 hours. 15:58:46 would be so cool doing this in Ob 15:59:06 (the declarative bot ai language) 15:59:24 oklopol: there's a 72-hour competition as well as the lightning round... 16:00:19 i know 16:00:27 i guess i could go for it... 16:01:04 it's just getting the live-cd to work sounds like something i will fail at. 16:01:15 compared to that, the actual programming task seems trivial :P 16:01:29 anyone else here making an entry? 16:08:13 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 16:09:47 I was going to, but I spent most of today failing at getting the server working 16:09:58 so I figured "screw it". 16:10:11 Deewiant: maybe you can help me instead 16:11:45 TBH I just wanted to see how hard it actually was, I didn't really do anything, and now I'm not in the mood any more :-/ 16:11:59 if you want to ask me about something feel free, of course :-P 16:13:27 oklopol: tusho was inaccurate BTW, you can submit a binary in any language 16:13:46 well yes 16:13:49 rather, a binary compiled from any language 16:13:50 but oklopol uses interppy languages 16:14:08 Deewiant: tusho was inaccurate BTw, i use *python* 16:14:10 *BTW 16:14:14 :-) 16:14:26 not Ob? 16:14:30 i know a lot of languages well enough to do something like this 16:14:40 Ob is one of my own langs, haven't implemented yet. 16:15:01 it's an event-based declarative language for making bot ai's for a game of mine 16:26:06 does anyone know how bad an idea it is to mount the same drive in two OSs simultaneously? 16:26:18 anyone here, that is 16:26:18 probably bad 16:26:22 I was about to try 16:26:25 not with my hard drive though 16:26:27 with a disk image 16:26:28 ais523: give it a go 16:30:14 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:44:02 tusho: it worked 16:44:09 heh 16:44:10 also, that's the first time I've ever reformatted a hard drive 16:44:12 http://mathworld.wolfram.com/TuppersSelf-ReferentialFormula.html 16:44:19 although it was a virtual one on my filesystem 16:47:18 RodgerTheGreat: always liked that, wonder if you could make a program that creates equations like that 16:47:23 i mean, obviously it's possible 16:47:28 dunno if it'd be trivial or not 16:47:29 seems pretty likely 16:47:40 the thing about that formula i don't like 16:47:42 is the big 'n' 16:47:45 which is outside the formula 16:47:51 it seems like a bit of a cheat. 16:47:54 Well, it certainly looks like the N is large enough to contain the bitmap the function "generates" 16:48:02 kind of like writing a drawing program 16:48:07 then feeding it itself as an image 16:48:20 so it's a function that unpacks a base-10 number into a bitmap, somehow 16:48:21 there's no actual self-reference, it's indirect 16:48:42 still impressive, of course 16:48:43 still quite intriguing 16:48:48 but not what I hoped when I first saw it 16:48:53 yeah 16:49:19 an _actual_ self-plotting formula would probably be very long, kind of like those huge quines 16:49:22 not very pretty 16:49:37 makes you wonder if a "plot quine" would be possible, though. It would undoubtedly be really nasty and complicated. 16:49:53 tusho: mounting the same file on two OSs at once doesn't work, because neither understands when it's changed 16:49:53 * tusho toys with writing a program to write it 16:50:01 they end up with different internal versions of it 16:50:03 ais523: I imagined that would happen, yeah. 16:50:12 maybe if I don't mount both at the same time... 17:23:51 http://mathworld.wolfram.com/TuppersSelf-ReferentialFormula.html is a cheat 17:24:09 that's trivial to do, except perhaps not one that short. 17:25:07 as i now see you discussed already. 17:26:23 yeah 17:28:25 * ais523 submits an initial solution 17:28:30 so there's something there if I run out of time 17:29:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:31:25 or if you run out of connection. 17:31:30 *zing* 17:32:54 okay, i'm going to code A in language B now, anyone feel like supplying A and B? 17:34:51 Malbolge in Malbolge. 17:35:26 pass 17:35:47 oklopol: python in python 17:35:51 Brainfucks in recursive functions. 17:35:58 passpass 17:36:10 oklopol: c in python 17:36:18 perhaps i could just make befunge in c. 17:36:18 Motherfucking snakes in a motherfucking plane. 17:36:23 no. 17:36:25 c in python. 17:36:28 :D 17:36:43 c in python doesn't sound too hard 17:36:50 not the basics, anyway 17:36:52 you'll have to simulate memory 17:36:55 for pointers and shizz 17:36:58 but apart from that... 17:37:04 yeah, i know that 17:37:04 lexing + parsing's a bit hard, some ambiguities 17:37:06 but the actual language 17:37:07 pretty simple 17:37:10 yeah. 17:37:12 it'd be a fun project 17:37:30 most likely, but B can't be python 17:37:30 'cause, you know, C "feels" substantial 17:37:40 why not 17:37:45 C interp in Python sounds fun 17:38:15 sure does, but i want a different language. 17:38:50 and i haven't used C in ages, should see if i get anything to work aymore 17:38:51 *anymoer 17:38:53 *anymore 17:39:25 c in c would be pretty hard 17:40:15 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:40:42 wow, my empty program worked! 17:40:46 now befunge 17:43:14 hi tusho 17:43:18 you were slow there... 17:43:26 meh 17:43:27 wasn't paying attention 17:43:28 oklopol: what lang? 17:43:32 tusho: neither was I 17:44:58 ais523: C 17:51:43 ais523: z 17:51:56 hi tusho 17:51:58 again 17:52:00 ais523: o 17:52:02 hi ais523 17:52:06 ooh 17:52:08 shall we play a game 17:52:08 z 17:52:23 tusho: not right now, only 2 hours to the lighning deadline, at least not with me 17:52:23 o 17:52:26 hehe 17:53:10 okokoko 17:53:46 ooooooooookokokoko. 17:53:47 hotidlerchick: hi oklopol 17:54:09 tusho: hi elliott 17:54:21 hotidlerchick: hi oklopol 17:55:26 cool stuff 17:55:29 oklopol: wanna swap identities? 17:55:34 [17:54] If the martians run into each other, do they turn into cheese? 17:55:34 [17:55] aSmig: the cheese may be Brie or provolone; which one it is is deliberately unspecified ;-) 17:55:37 from #icfp-contest 17:55:45 heh 17:55:46 there's so much deliberately unspecified there... 17:55:48 hotidlerchick: lol sure :) 17:56:37 -!- hotidlerchick has changed nick to oklo. 17:56:44 -!- oklopol has changed nick to hotidlerchick. 17:56:52 -!- oklo has changed nick to oklopol. 17:57:01 oklopol: can i still continue coding? 17:57:11 * ais523 so wants an IRC client command to do that automatically, without the other person knowing 17:57:12 this is fucking disturbing 17:57:17 and automatically rewriting all the messages 17:57:29 hotidlerchick: oooh, that would be so hot 17:57:38 ;) 17:59:40 tbh. i'm not entirely sure how to be you 17:59:56 *-. 18:00:11 o 18:01:00 ask tusho, I'm sure he knows 18:01:39 "just be yourself"? :P 18:02:20 also i think i'll just implement 93... possibly because i've lost most of my awesome man brain? 18:02:41 ... 18:02:46 :D 18:02:46 oklofok: it shouldn't be too hard to implement 93 in such a way you can later generalise it to 98 18:02:54 ais523: true 18:03:09 except for the extending the program space part 18:03:25 but that should be easy too, some kinda wrapper that autoextends where necessary 18:11:48 ais523: oklofok: it shouldn't be too hard to implement 93 in such a way you can later generalise it to 98 18:11:48 hotidlerchick: ais523: true 18:11:51 CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE 18:12:00 tusho: they swapped nicks 18:12:02 look up a bit 18:12:03 yes 18:12:04 still 18:12:22 tusho: I was nickpinging oklofok, who isn't even in the channel, to avoid getting confused about the nicks 18:13:47 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 18:16:03 anyone who wants to help (tusho? Deewiant?): I've been programming for several hours now and am having problems sorting out my thinking: what's the formula to calculate a turning circle from a turn speed in degrees per second and a forward speed in meters per second? 18:16:25 74*buttcake 18:16:30 sorry, don't know 18:16:51 hmm... it shouldn't be that hard to work out... 18:17:02 let's see... after turning 360 degrees you've done one complete turning circle 18:17:08 so presumably work out how far you go in that time 18:17:17 and that's the circumference of the circle 18:17:21 then divide by 2pi 18:17:28 r = v^2 / a where v is velocity forward, a is acceleration towards centre of circle 18:17:34 I think 18:17:45 Deewiant: wrong formula, but quite possibly 18:17:53 I know the turn rate, not the acceleration 18:18:08 I think you can find the acceleration 18:18:22 yes, but there has to be an easier way, surely... 18:18:56 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:18:58 possibly 18:28:50 hmm 18:29:36 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:30:02 i think you can solve it from that formula 18:31:00 I tried to figure it and got v * 360 / (dtheta/dt) 18:31:02 but that's wrong 18:31:11 the 360 because it's in degrees 18:31:59 hmmm 18:32:02 i think i have an idea 18:32:17 the object is always moving towards the tangent 18:32:36 hmm, wait... i'm a bit slow atm 18:32:46 have to think a bit 18:33:08 yes, that's my problem, being a bit slow thinking mathematically due to being in super-coding mode 18:34:38 i think i have it 18:35:07 let me know what it is? 18:35:14 circumference = motion_length_per_sec * (angs_per_sec / 360) 18:35:21 hmm 18:35:30 that's the same formula I came up with 18:35:33 yarr 18:35:43 maybe there was a units problem in my implementation... 18:36:13 I have angular speed in .1s of degrees per second, and speed in mm per second 18:36:13 most likely, i'm quite sure it's like that, although my derivation wasn't mathematical 18:36:20 so I made the constant 3600 18:36:38 wait, your formula's different from mine 18:36:45 I got the * and / the wrong way round 18:36:52 hmm, right 18:37:01 ...except wouldn't turning faster give a smaller turning circle? 18:37:06 hmm 18:37:11 your formula's clearly wrong with angs_per_sec = 0 18:37:13 yeah. 18:37:15 the circle's infinite then 18:38:18 ais523: maybe you should code another part 18:38:20 time is ticking 18:38:39 tusho: this is the most important part currently left 18:38:47 although I'm coding a different bit of that part right now 18:38:47 :\ 18:38:56 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 18:39:23 ais523: i actually just swapped them accidentally 18:39:32 basically 18:39:36 you move at speed v 18:39:37 but 18:40:21 you also move @ (circumference * (degrees / 360)) / sec for rotation speed degrees/sec 18:40:46 turningcircle = maxspeed*3600/maxhardturn; 18:40:57 maxhardturn is in .1s of degrees per second 18:41:02 maxspeed's in mm per second 18:41:16 yeah that should be right 18:41:23 let me recompile and rerun 18:41:25 to see what happens 18:41:34 that's just the circumference ofc 18:41:49 hotidlerchick: not radius? 18:41:53 no. 18:42:16 why would it be radius? 18:42:31 when moving 5 degrees per second 18:42:32 hotidlerchick: ah, good point 18:42:41 we're moving at circumference * 5/360 18:42:48 radius has nothing to do with anything 18:42:54 still, 120m is far too large for the turning circle because I've seen it turn faster than that 18:43:02 this is the classical problem of doing math and programming simultaneously 18:43:21 yes, this is why I could do with someone else to do the math for me... 18:43:23 @ math, you don't think, when getting the result, you often don't have a clear idea what it is, and assume it's what you wanted 18:43:49 well, you prolly had less speed? 18:43:54 it was accelerating at first 18:44:03 which made it turn most of the circle fast 18:44:05 dunno. 18:46:28 ais523: why the silence, trying to figure out circumference -> radius? ;) 18:46:33 that wouldn't happen 18:46:37 okay 18:46:39 and circumference->radius is easy 18:46:42 that's not the problem 18:46:47 yeah it was a joke, kinda. 18:46:53 anyway, you saying that's wrong? 18:47:04 the formula looks right, but acts wrong 18:47:14 I'll get it to printf its arguments to see if they're right 18:47:40 * hotidlerchick opens python 18:48:25 ah, i think it is right 18:48:30 I know what's happening 18:48:37 the return value's correct, it just looks wrong 18:56:38 ais 18:56:42 yes 18:56:57 how would you do conditionals in an RPN-like language?? 18:57:09 oklopol: ::pounce:: 18:58:08 augur: put two subprograms on stack, then pop one of them and run tos 18:58:28 augur: yeah, quotations. 18:58:38 on, quote the cod?e? 18:58:46 augur: quotations are lambdas, basically 18:58:47 [program] 18:58:49 so you end up with 18:58:55 cond [iftrue] [iffalse] if 18:59:06 generally you have combinators manipulating the subprograms 18:59:09 [x] i == x 18:59:15 oh i see, so instead of code, you'd have lambdas 18:59:18 x y [z] dip == x z y 18:59:18 ok that makes sense. 18:59:21 etc 18:59:24 (dip is a very useful combinator) 18:59:29 (you can build lots of swap-rot-etc things out of it) 19:01:45 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p265444122.txt the formula is correct 19:02:32 took ages, since i kinda managed to confuse angles of complexes and angles on the screen 19:02:38 i mean the y axis 19:02:46 thanks 19:03:05 if you don't get that, i can explain it 19:03:07 BREAKING NEWS: ais523+hotidlerchick win ICFP 19:03:07 but it's kinda simple 19:03:14 :D 19:03:28 radizee is the formula 19:03:52 I'm using that formula now, thanks 19:03:54 the for loop moves the point "pos" around by turning it by the angle all the time 19:04:10 and you're credited (as oklopol, your nick before you swapped) in the README for the mathematical help 19:04:24 and its distance from origo is printed, wavering is because of the discrete simulation ofc 19:04:29 yay :) 19:04:31 ais523: at least use his real name 19:04:36 tusho: well, I don't know it 19:04:37 oklopol omniovorol 19:04:40 anyway I credited you as tusho 19:04:40 ais523: /whois! 19:04:44 wait 19:04:45 *ominovorol 19:04:46 what did I do 19:05:18 ais523: :\ 19:05:30 anyway, don't use oklopol ominovorol, oklopol or ask my actual real name :P 19:05:35 whoops. 19:05:43 anyway, don't use oklopol ominovorol period. use oklopol or ask my actual real name :P 19:05:47 tusho: I'll credit you with your realname if you like 19:05:53 hotidlerchick: 'don't use my real name, oklopol or my real name'?!!12121212 19:05:56 and I was using oklopol, and will do except on request 19:05:56 ais523: no but I mean what did I do 19:05:58 :p 19:06:03 tusho: punctuation was funny. 19:06:25 was talking about the redundancy actually hotidlerchick 19:06:32 since oklopol ominovorol is your real name 19:07:40 is this a oklopol=hotidlerchick reference, do you actually think that's anyone's irl name? 19:07:56 it's obviously your irl name. 19:07:58 why would you lie? 19:07:59 :D 19:08:16 ais523: what am I credited -for- 19:08:16 you speak a cool truth 19:08:18 i don't know what i did 19:08:19 :p 19:08:46 you had a helpful mindset 19:08:52 awwww 19:08:58 tusho: eso-std.org, actually 19:09:19 "TUSHO. FOR BEING ESO-STD.ORG. 19:09:21 " 19:09:25 .strip 19:10:05 hmph, can't talk on #eso with this nick, "long time no be" was my official join pun. 19:10:31 heh 19:12:06 ais523: wait 19:12:08 can you credit me as 19:12:12 tusho 19:12:24 (you can keep the eso-std.org thing, just, you know, I'd like to have a pointer) 19:12:26 tusho: even though it isn't registered? 19:12:35 that'll just get people to domain-squat you, but OK 19:12:36 yes; I've linked to it quite a lot 19:12:38 i'll register it sometime 19:12:43 maybe even today 19:14:45 i know a guy who registers every domain he sees. 19:14:48 you be careful 19:14:56 hotidlerchick: who, GregorR? 19:15:02 http://www.vjn.fi/domains/ 19:15:18 also GregorR 19:15:25 hotidlerchick: you need oklopol.org 19:15:26 :p 19:15:33 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/ 19:15:35 the url is just too ugly 19:15:38 for such a masterpeice of a page 19:15:39 right? 19:15:43 :) 19:15:51 true, true 19:16:43 i'll be more likely to get com 19:17:47 hotidlerchick: is oklopol going to be selling things?!?!?! 19:17:48 awesome 19:17:52 Buy oklopol today! 19:17:54 At oklopol.com! 19:19:05 :) 19:19:36 com is what i assume 19:19:40 if i don't know what it is 19:19:51 hotidlerchick: you could just type 'foo' 19:19:56 and firefox will try .com,.org,google,etc 19:19:59 o wait 19:20:00 you use ie 19:20:11 i use firefox 19:20:16 i just like ie better 19:26:39 olp 19:27:37 you know hotidlerchick, you haven't really done your idling properly 19:32:12 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 19:45:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:49:03 * tusho just made his blog design even more minimal 19:49:11 not even the header paragraph any more 19:49:15 I snook an archives link into the footer 19:49:22 '[All posts] licensed under CC by-sa 3.0.' 19:49:24 all posts links to the archives 19:49:25 yay 19:51:24 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:56:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:56:39 wb ais523 20:01:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:01:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:16:53 argh 20:16:54 wb ais523 20:17:22 sorry for the connection trouble... 20:17:33 at least I got the latest version of my ICFP contest entry in on time 20:17:37 even though it was buggy 20:17:40 clap clap 20:17:42 ;) 20:17:50 ais523: i take it you'll do more revisions 20:17:53 not just the lightning 20:17:56 ofc 20:40:24 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1""). 20:48:47 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 20:58:51 okokokokokokokoko 20:59:04 good night, hotties 20:59:09 -!- oklopol has quit ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'"). 21:05:19 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:06:47 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 21:06:58 :) 21:08:42 -!- timotiis_ has joined. 21:09:10 Can anyone link me to SAIOCP 21:11:22 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:12:40 -!- hotidlerchick has changed nick to oklopol. 21:14:45 SAIOCP? itym SICP 21:16:59 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 21:17:04 oooooooooooooo 21:17:11 good to be myself again 21:17:33 oklopol: i didn't notice any change. 21:20:15 23:12… hotidlerchick is now known as oklopol 21:20:17 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:21:16 oklopol: yes what's the difference 21:21:21 nick? 21:21:29 it's entirely different 21:22:38 oklopol: same person though 21:22:55 :P 21:23:03 i guess nothing happened 21:23:14 no idea why it felt like it 21:34:00 -!- augur has changed nick to psygnisfive. 21:34:15 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:42:35 -!- ihope has joined. 21:42:43 We ought to do a BF busy beaver project on the wiki. 21:44:17 Is the most usual format tape infinite in both directions, cells 8-bit and wrapping? 21:44:39 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit. 21:50:01 just infinite to the right 21:50:27 The tape is generally finite to the left? 21:51:14 And is going left while on the leftmost cell undefined? 21:51:43 i'd say so 21:52:04 and you generally start at the leftmost cell 21:52:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:52:19 hi oerjan 21:52:26 what's going on? 21:53:47 well someone down in Tnsberg gave the wrong phone number in a paper advertisement today... the number given happened to be mine :D 21:54:17 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 21:54:45 *newspaper 21:55:01 other than that, not much 21:56:06 that sounds awesome 21:56:08 A personal? 21:56:16 Are you getting sexay chat? 21:56:39 no, just requests for renting an apartment, alas 21:57:08 oerjan: AWESOME 21:57:16 "I don't have an apartment for you ... but I've got something else for you, baby ;)" 21:57:26 you should find out what its an ad for and answer the phone as tho you were the advertiser 21:57:37 sell the product to everyone that calls 21:57:39 or whatever 21:57:53 otoh i have so far failed to answer a single of the calls 21:58:12 lame 22:00:05 mostly because i accidentally had the phone turned off until late afternoon 22:02:20 (i did find the ad though, since one of the recorded calls mentioned the name of the newspaper) 22:02:54 sucks that you didnt know about it earlier 22:04:30 Hmm. +[.+] 22:04:49 lolwhat 22:04:58 new smily? :D 22:05:28 well-known bf spamming program 22:05:34 ? 22:05:40 brainfuck 22:06:09 hm actually that one stops after one cycle 22:06:24 It does? 22:06:33 Oh, right. 22:06:39 although can still be messy with > 8 bit bf 22:07:04 why does it stop after one cycle? 22:07:07 oh 22:07:10 egobot if it were here, uses 16 bit by default 22:07:11 one cycle through chars. 22:07:36 * oerjan wonders if that was grammatical 22:09:33 no it was NOT 22:10:33 excuse me while i go feed arrows to my time flies 22:11:05 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:11:17 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 22:11:31 i nearly have enough for my time machine now. BWAHAHAHA! 22:13:40 on the other hand, i have conclusively shown that apples fly almost, but not quite like bananas. 22:14:42 * oerjan for clarity wishes to stress that he is on nothing stronger than coffee 22:15:35 caffeine! that's what i was missing 22:15:46 * oklopol starts drinking 22:15:55 GregorR: i want egobot back 22:17:09 Yay, a non-trivial program that outputs a number of characters equal to its length: +++[-...] 22:19:07 is this some new kind of quinoid concept? 22:19:20 I guess it is like a quine. 22:19:49 Something Haskellian: replicate 16 '.' 22:24:03 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:24:58 http://scarybuggames.com/2008/05/chronotron/ 22:25:02 awesome game 22:31:29 ihope: better are programs which output their length 22:31:32 as an ascii char 22:31:37 so a 36 char program would print \36 22:41:39 ihope: so: 22:41:49 putChar'\12' 22:41:54 Yeah. 22:42:10 Hmm. 22:42:16 What's a brainfuck version of that 22:43:03 something +++[->+++<] -like probably 22:43:14 (with . at the end) 22:43:41 +++[->+++<]. 22:44:03 * tusho has no BF interp atm 22:46:29 ++[->+++++++++<]>. i think 22:52:19 tusho: that doesn't work 22:52:30 hmm 22:52:31 better - 22:52:36 output the decimal of the length 22:52:38 +++[->+++<]>. 22:52:43 that's harder 22:52:45 * pikhq takes a break from the distro development. 22:53:04 I almost have a distro which can boot from a single *5 1/4"* floppy. 22:53:04 Just one problem. . . 22:53:14 I've cut out too much of the kernel for it to boot. 22:53:22 Or, for that matter, for it to tell me why it won't boot. 22:56:28 pikhq: Are you using linux_tiny? 22:57:02 Of course. 22:57:45 tusho: whatever the rest of the program does with the length, the ++[->listofplusses<]restofprogram method can be used to initialize a cell with it 22:57:57 yeah 23:09:47 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 23:10:06 D:< 23:10:20 Slereah__: lol 23:11:48 Let's build a device that will pour liquid nitrogen on the CPU. 23:12:09 and make icecream at the same time! 23:13:33 :D 23:17:32 psygnisfive: the game is a bit too slow for me 23:17:56 especially as you can't skip the trivial levels 23:18:05 yeah i know 23:18:40 What game? 23:19:55 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:38:14 psygnisfive: cool idea for a game 23:38:16 very cool 23:38:26 its not time travel though 23:38:29 it's "replaying" 23:38:29 :p 23:39:04 Someone help me prove that there isn't a 9-character BF program that uses the . instruction more than 9 times. :-) 23:39:04 no you can cause paradoxes 23:39:26 ihope: +[.+].... 23:39:28 Disproved. 23:39:31 psygnisfive: and what happens 23:39:38 and the universe explodes 23:39:45 psygnisfive: unlikely. 23:40:04 well the game universe does 23:40:09 tusho: not if cells never wrap. 23:40:18 ihope: that calls . more than 9 times/ 23:40:31 But it never terminates. 23:40:41 So? 23:40:44 One that uses the . instruction more than 9 times and then terminates. 23:40:53 psygnisfive: paradoxes don't make it time travel, you being able to play multiple characters simulataneously would 23:41:14 i guess the make it more time travelish 23:41:25 what's the deelio with level 19? 23:41:32 ihope: +++[...-] 23:41:40 how would that be time travel, oklopol. 23:41:52 That does not use . more than 9 times. 23:42:00 whatchu mean whats the deal with 19? 23:42:15 ihope: ++[....-] 23:42:16 that does 23:42:19 wait 23:42:21 no it doesn't 23:42:26 oerjan: you're provey 23:42:27 disprove it 23:42:48 what 23:43:08 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/BF_busy_beaver 23:43:24 psygnisfive: well things could react to their past/future selves 23:43:39 but they can now, too, except the control is simplified for the past versions 23:43:42 Prove that a 9-character BF program can't output more than 9 characters before terminating. 23:44:11 Oh, you're not oerjan, are you? 23:44:15 oklopol: what? 23:44:58 psygnisfive: just that the past self should already see the future self when playing the first round 23:45:14 right. .. 23:45:14 ihope: Gee, I should write a program to find these things. 23:45:15 ;) 23:45:26 and this is achievable how? :P 23:45:36 psygnisfive: time travel isn't achievable 23:45:37 an exhaustive search does seem possible 23:45:45 :P 23:45:46 i'm not saying this isn't the best way to do it 23:45:58 psygnisfive: It was a joke, since of course it's one of the funnest impossible things. 23:46:04 i'm just saying it's not as close to time travel as one might've hoped 23:46:32 o 23:46:35 psygnisfive weren't talkin' to me 23:46:46 oklo 23:46:48 how would you do it 23:46:54 probably like that 23:47:11 hope has nothing to do with reason 23:47:38 im having problems with the timing :( 23:47:45 what lev? 23:47:48 the more guys i have on the screen the crummier it gets 23:47:53 the frustrating thing about this game 23:47:54 i don't know 19 is solved 23:47:56 all levels 23:47:57 is that I see myslef make the same mistakes 23:48:01 :| 23:48:01 i've only needed 4 23:48:31 hmm, actually 5 for one of the simple levels, but i think i could've done with less 23:48:31 ?? 23:48:36 psygnisfive: wanna help with 19? 23:48:43 no i can get it 23:48:47 i simply don't know how the lazer works 23:49:36 if i were really coy, i'd use special magic to reuse the same guy like 5 times 23:49:54 the game should let you do that 23:49:58 would be tons more fun. 23:49:59 it does 23:50:05 it does? 23:50:10 you just have to envision where you'll be 23:50:17 remember the puzzle where you had to change the past? 23:50:22 but non-destructively? 23:50:28 brb 23:50:55 i meant use part of your past self's movement. 23:51:28 so you don't have to play all of the the round n times if there are n triggers that need to be held simultaneously 23:51:51 and can you help with #19? 23:52:00 so do i, oklopol 23:52:04 you can do that 23:52:07 you just have to do it right 23:52:09 hmph 23:52:11 I caused a paradox 23:52:13 and nothing happened 23:52:20 ah 23:52:21 ey? 23:52:22 i see 23:52:24 it error'd 23:52:27 yeah 23:52:32 universe asplode 23:52:36 it's easy to see how this game really works though 23:52:38 it stores all your moves 23:52:39 psygnisfive: i don't get how you do it 23:52:40 then replays them 23:52:41 as another sprite 23:52:45 and if it waits a while 23:52:48 and you're not back at the time pod 23:52:51 it considers it a paradox 23:52:57 you have to be predictive 23:53:01 say i move to place A, then multiply into 7 guys 23:53:03 plan everything 23:53:12 how do i secord the place, and start from there every time? 23:53:15 *record 23:53:19 time travel is the best way to get a clone army though 23:53:27 you dont record anything dude 23:53:29 just go back to 10 minutes ago repeatedly 23:53:30 :D 23:53:36 you have to act as tho you were going to do it 23:53:40 walking against walls and stuff 23:53:47 and then when you press the buttons it works 23:53:55 tusho: sucks rather badly when a clone dies 23:54:04 01:50… oklopol: i meant use part of your past self's movement. <<< i meant "to get the level done faster" 23:54:06 i mean 23:54:07 like 23:54:11 oerjan: if we have time travel i hope we have invincibility 23:54:18 use part of the fucking move-around macro that's being recorded, twice. 23:55:29 i still dont get you 23:56:09 01:52… oklopol: say i move to place A, then multiply into 7 guys ||| 01:52… oklopol: how do i record the place, and start from there every time? <<< i want there to be an answer to this question. 23:56:32 psygnisfive: he knows there isn't one 23:56:32 i dont get what youre asking 23:56:34 but he wants one 23:56:36 often, you need to walk n guys into a place, then put each on a different button 23:56:45 so 23:56:50 i want to walk there *once* 23:56:56 because it's trivial to walk them all there 23:57:07 but it takes fucking hours 23:57:25 anyway, i don't care whether you get it, i want you to help me with #19 23:57:30 or tell me you won't 23:57:49 19 is easy 23:57:53 just go through the motions :P 23:58:01 you have to pause before you walk through the laser 23:58:01 how do i get past the lazer? 23:58:10 oh, right, it was a pause :) 23:58:18 heh, i got that, but didn't use it 23:58:19 thx. 23:59:35 :p 23:59:52 ihope: I wonder what BFBB(10) is 2008-07-13: 00:00:40 It'll output 12, I believe. 00:00:55 ihope: I mean the prorgam 00:00:57 *program 00:01:39 +++[-....] 00:01:55 Eek. I paradox'd. 00:02:38 Level 7 is hard 00:04:07 i haven't met a nontrivial level yet 00:04:17 but i'm not at the hard ones yet, so shouldn't be surprising 00:05:00 oklopol: I need halp with 7 00:06:27 more weight 00:07:15 oklopol: yes 00:07:18 but I get a pime taradox 00:07:22 because the other makes him too low 00:07:25 to get back to the pod with a jump 00:07:28 and I can't jump off fast enough 00:08:15 i cant get 21 00:10:14 i beat 7! 00:10:29 lol 00:10:46 i'm at 21 too 00:10:53 psygnisfive: didn't you say you've beaten them all? 00:10:59 no. o.o 00:11:14 01:47… oklopol: what lev? 00:11:18 01:47… psygnisfive: all levels 00:11:20 but indeed 00:11:25 you were talking about the timeing 00:11:27 *timing 00:11:35 actually 00:11:37 i just beat 21 00:11:42 it's trivial 00:11:42 how? 00:11:46 errr 00:11:49 i didn't really plan 00:11:50 but 00:12:02 you just go up&right to the button 00:12:17 and another guy is high on the leftmost rising thingie 00:12:29 i can get the flap open 00:12:30 and jumps on the see-saw to whip another one in the air 00:12:45 yeah but i cant get the seesaw to push me high enough 00:12:47 what's hard to do? 00:12:49 oh 00:12:50 well 00:13:10 you need to have the leftmost lift as high as it goes 00:13:14 and jump on the see-saw 00:13:28 and the guy on it will jump about as high as you dropped onto it from 00:14:20 ok 00:15:58 i beat level 8! 00:16:35 Oh, wow. That walkthrough video for level 7 makes it look really difficult. :-) 00:16:47 Haha. 00:16:51 I haven't used the walkthroughs 00:17:16 walkthroughs? 00:17:24 oklopol: click 'walkthrough' 00:18:31 actually, what this game needs is a speed-up key 00:18:50 ironically it's the only button left out 00:19:25 yeah 00:19:26 its so slow 00:20:56 also, about interactivity, you could let the player have as many copies as he likes, and let him choose what player to move, and how much 00:20:58 lvl9 halp 00:21:02 and you could do this as long as you'd like 00:21:04 how do i get to the thing I need 00:21:05 err 00:21:11 i mean, you could do in any order 00:21:15 tusho: fast going there 00:21:18 :\ 00:21:33 you were just doing 19, can the levels be skipped? :P 00:21:38 *9 00:22:19 nope 00:22:19 :( 00:22:52 what I mean is 00:22:55 how do you get to the chip 00:22:57 its too high up 00:23:25 tusho 00:23:28 half the fun is figuring it out 00:23:29 :P 00:23:39 not if you can't 00:23:57 :P 00:24:50 l v L 9 00:24:56 well done, oklo. 00:25:30 i need halp oklopol 00:25:39 i only like figuring things out "from the inside", meaning i don't actually have to react with the world when solving. 00:25:49 tusho: i'll ook 00:25:51 look 00:25:59 yay 22 00:26:19 tusho: there are just two things your first guy can do 00:26:28 can you figure those out? only one is non trivial 00:26:33 psygnisfive: passed or are there? 00:26:38 use the box to go to the button and press it. 00:26:39 passed 00:26:43 tusho: yes 00:26:48 and then? 00:27:04 the next guy jumps to the forwarder and beats the level 00:27:16 you have to *think* two guys at once, even when just moving one 00:27:50 oklopol: i can't get the datachip I need, dude 00:28:05 i love the faux tardis design 00:28:06 :D 00:29:33 tusho: jump there 00:29:51 its too high oklopol 00:29:52 i can't reach it 00:29:58 stand on something 00:29:59 even jumping from a bawx 00:30:03 then 00:30:07 jump from something higher 00:30:15 how do you get a box higher? 00:30:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:30:57 psygnisfive: when you get 22, help me @ it 00:31:06 im done with it 00:31:10 just use lots of guys and be patient 00:31:19 i can't get up if i get down 00:31:31 so atm, i have to figure out how to pass that without going down. 00:31:32 be patient. 00:32:06 oklopol: how do you get a box higher? 00:32:07 how? 00:32:54 aha, you can stand on the bomb 00:33:12 games should tell all this data, i hate not knowing what to do. 00:33:32 tusho: err... lift it? 00:33:36 sheesh 00:33:41 oklopol: even jumping off a lifted box 00:33:43 i can't reach it 00:34:19 the box is on top of a guy 00:34:23 how do you get a guy higher? 00:34:36 -!- calamari has joined. 00:34:45 hi 00:34:46 ah 00:34:53 hi calamari 00:35:11 hello 00:36:01 lvl 22 needs two guys, psygnisfive 00:36:10 and you don't need patience 00:36:18 you need to know you can jump onto the bomb :< 00:36:44 i used like 10 guys just for simplicity 00:36:53 for 22 00:38:31 Agh. 00:38:34 I killed mysef 00:38:50 yay 00:38:53 i got 10 00:38:55 on to 11 00:41:05 uh, which game is this? 00:41:16 also, hi calamari. 00:41:17 @ 25, again, i simply don't know a way to get back up if i fall down, and if i don't, i can't do anything. 00:41:34 http://scarybuggames.com/2008/05/chronotron/ 00:41:39 a trivial time travel game 00:41:41 -!- wigyan has joined. 00:42:03 i need help with level 11, oklopol 00:42:03 :| 00:42:32 uh.. 00:42:37 25 was easy... 00:43:22 psygnisfive: only if you know boxes fall after a few seconds when you stand on the button. 00:43:28 i didn't know that 00:43:36 the puzzles suck bad. 00:43:38 lol 00:43:46 the first thing i did was stand on the button a few seconds. lol 00:44:06 i stand on it until i know what it does 00:44:16 Halp oklopol. 00:44:19 okay 00:44:35 tusho: well, you need to get the block down 00:44:40 ya 00:44:42 did that 00:44:42 errrr 00:44:46 actually not sure if you do 00:44:47 but 00:44:48 the gist is 00:45:00 you lift the elevator up 00:45:08 and jump down, prolly need to have the box 00:45:17 and another guy is on the other side of the see-saw 00:45:23 ah right 00:45:24 and, err, that's it 00:45:55 psygnisfive: anyway, if you happen to stand on the button for more than two seconds, the level is trivial, otherwise it's trivially impossible 00:46:02 either way it sucks ass 00:46:08 yes well it took me five seconds to do :P 00:46:18 me too 00:46:36 once i found out about the boxes 00:47:02 which ar you on? 00:47:32 i did 11 00:48:35 27 now 00:48:41 was looking at 11 00:49:01 im on 27 too 00:49:09 i do it by brute force tho 00:49:10 XD 00:49:19 so it takes a while for me lol 00:50:21 I pime taradox'd 12. 00:50:26 Well, they all got back. 00:50:27 But 00:50:38 brute force? 00:51:00 Gah. 00:51:02 12 is hard. 00:51:04 :( 00:51:05 -!- timotiis_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:53:07 every level is so fucking trivial :< 00:53:10 yeah, brute force 00:53:14 like ill use lots of guys for now reason 00:54:04 ah. 00:56:03 or ill use a lot of time 00:57:08 i have the same approach 00:57:19 except i tried a different thing first 00:58:40 ? 00:59:17 let's just say stealing is never the answer 01:00:21 plzx halp oklopol 01:00:22 s 01:01:12 damn this game, need to stand still for half a minute just to realize you've been standing in the wrong spot 01:01:23 plz halp oklopol 01:01:33 -!- wigyan has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:01:45 tusho: after this lev 01:03:28 27 is annoying 01:03:51 yeah 01:04:03 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 01:06:03 timing is fucking annoying >_< 01:11:46 28 bugs. 01:12:01 28 requires backwards thinking i think 01:14:05 it was trivial once the glitch didn't happen 01:15:45 hmph, i accidentally took another guy in, when i was trying to enter the exit 01:15:55 and the glitch started happening again :) 01:18:08 yay didn't glitch 01:18:10 now how did you pass it? 01:18:24 perhaps it was the way i was doing it 01:18:43 the box, when falling on a door, usually stays in the air 01:18:46 can't be lifted 01:18:56 and waits for the block to pass from under it 01:18:59 then falls down 01:19:08 about every fourth try, it didn't happen 01:19:21 i'm pretty sure nondeterminism is a bug in a game like this 01:19:21 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:19:31 hmm 01:19:36 i havent passed it yet 01:19:36 :P 01:19:37 first "impossible" level 01:19:48 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 01:19:49 wonder if these require some thought 01:19:54 you'd think... 01:20:00 which are you on now? 01:21:44 28 pisses me off because the floor only sometimes catches the block 01:22:17 29 01:22:21 yeah, that's the bug. 01:22:40 29 could easily be the first level of this game 01:22:53 it's so straight-forward i'm not even sure what i did 01:24:40 heh 01:24:51 * tusho wnats cheatkoed 01:28:56 okay, 30 seems to be a bit hard. 01:28:56 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:28:59 tusho: what lev? 01:29:10 dunno 01:29:13 29 is ridiculous 01:29:17 indeed 01:29:30 i cant get past it due to that fucking bug 01:29:40 29? do you mean 28? 01:29:53 yeaqh that 01:29:58 29 is ridiculously simple 01:29:58 :P 01:33:08 okay, 30 is trivial, but it misleads you. 01:34:31 fucking finally 01:34:43 had to use the walkthrough 01:34:43 :( 01:36:15 also, i think the gam engine has trouble with paradoxes 01:36:23 of course it does 01:36:27 it doesn't actually time travel 01:36:30 it just does some sanity checks 01:36:34 'that guy should really be in there by now' 01:36:41 '(skips forward simulation 10 days) bah, he's still not in' 01:36:46 'HAY U GOT PIME TARADOX' 01:40:11 okay, it seems the "impossible" puzzles are hard mainly because they're fucking misleading. 01:40:42 "oh did we forget to mention this thing you've seen 100 times and which kills you, works differently in this level?" 01:44:03 its like that insane modification of super mario brothers 01:44:10 where all the places you need to jump have invisible blocks 01:52:16 -!- tusho has quit. 02:00:36 okay, 32 is genuinely hard. 02:04:27 okay, it was actually simple 02:04:34 but it definitely wasn't trivial 02:20:45 34 was actually quite fun 02:20:59 could even be called a level. 02:26:29 33 was annoying. 02:28:34 what was it? 02:31:17 okay passed the game 02:32:31 a few of the last ones required about a minute of though even after knowing everything about the triggers 02:33:01 but the think/do ratio of that game is so small i wouldn't really recommend it for anything but a monkey 02:33:24 cuz monkeys like doing repetitive things? 02:33:28 not sure what i mean here 02:33:31 care to elaborate? 02:33:56 no 02:34:14 i don't have time for that, it's half past 4 02:34:26 lol 02:35:10 yes, lol 02:35:42 i thought 33 was rather nice and clean 02:36:04 it's like hippity-hop-hoppity 02:36:10 and it's done 02:36:14 hmm 02:36:25 wonder if you could get something to eat at this a.m. 02:36:45 there's a place near here that's supposedly open till 5 02:36:51 it says that on their door 02:37:02 but i've tried 3 times now, and they've always been closed all night 02:37:13 perhaps i should try once more 02:39:37 at least here the fast food places often have open longer during weekends 02:40:08 *are 02:40:13 i think 02:40:50 of course 7/11 is _always_ open, and has some food 02:46:23 "Thank you, come again". 02:57:02 ugh 02:57:07 i wasted so much time on that game 02:57:33 time travel does tend to do that 02:57:59 i literally spent the last 5 or 6 hours on it 02:58:00 x_x 03:02:43 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:07:40 I'm glad I got bored before finishing level 7. :-P 03:08:57 i'm not 03:32:28 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:56:37 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 04:27:54 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 04:49:03 anyone here? 05:34:59 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 06:38:25 of course 7/11 is _always_ open, and has some food 06:38:29 Depends on your definition of "food" 06:56:52 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:07:55 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 08:08:19 :o 09:07:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:07:19 -!- lament has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:07:19 -!- Deewiant has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:08:20 -!- lament has joined. 09:09:00 -!- Deewiant has joined. 09:09:14 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 09:17:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Killed by douglas.freenode.net (Nick collision)). 09:17:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 09:18:02 -!- DarkPants has joined. 09:19:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Nick collision from services.). 09:19:18 -!- DarkPants has changed nick to GreaseMonkey. 09:27:44 -!- jix has joined. 09:36:54 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 10:12:23 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("i'm the second... gnight!"). 10:26:35 -!- Hiato has joined. 10:46:26 -!- AnMaster has joined. 11:45:45 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:48:12 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 11:55:45 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 12:06:07 -!- augur has joined. 12:21:51 oklo! :D 12:22:19 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 12:33:21 hey you 12:33:22 hows it goin 13:25:51 my befunge interp isn't working :< 13:26:28 mostly because i didn't test the intermediate versions, but implemented all at once, and am now testing a bigger program right away 13:35:35 -!- oklopolor has joined. 13:39:03 :( 13:45:09 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:47:54 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 13:57:58 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:58:29 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 14:11:23 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:23:13 mostly because i didn't test the intermediate versions, but implemented all at once, and am now testing a bigger program right away 14:23:15 dumb 14:24:45 oklopol, I guess you should check out an earlier revision, fix any errors in it, then port those fixes forward 14:24:51 then go back and do the same a bit later 14:25:02 I assume you used an VCS 14:25:07 a VCS* 14:25:30 if not: even dumber 14:28:26 hey dont call oklopol dumb! >| 14:28:56 AnMaster: i don't use a VCS, i may be dumb, but i'm not a loser. 14:29:18 oklopol, well not using a vcs is loosing 14:29:42 sure, sure 14:29:58 * AnMaster would go as far as calling oklopol a moron for not using something like mercurial, bzr, darcs, svn, cvs or even git 14:30:24 well do go, i don't give that many shits :D 14:31:11 i've never not been able to track an error, and i've never installed a vcs 14:31:26 with python, i don't make errors really, so even less use for a vcs 14:32:41 and no matter how useful it is to use a vcs, a true coder does not use one imo. 14:33:12 i like to write my program, and a boolean output of success 14:33:18 i like to write my program, and debug with a boolean output of success 14:34:39 also a good enough reason for me not to use a vcs is people saying i should, fuck those idiots 14:43:26 oklopol, you MUST NOT use a vcs 14:43:28 ;P 14:43:49 :) 14:44:27 * oklopol starts up mercurial 14:58:00 ::murders anmaster:: 14:58:17 augur, why? 15:00:35 he's very protective of me 15:00:40 -!- jix has joined. 15:09:05 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 15:12:45 <3oklopol 15:16:11 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:19:01 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 15:24:10 -!- jix has joined. 15:55:30 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 15:57:58 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:01:26 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:04:45 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 16:12:50 -!- tusho has joined. 16:13:19 hi ais523 16:13:21 oh. 16:34:26 Ello. 16:34:32 ﷐ 16:35:03 o 16:35:17 oklopol: how did you survive that 16:35:54 survive WHAT 16:36:28 oklopol: that 16:37:20 WHAT *IS* THAT?!?!?!?!? 16:37:30 can't say i care tho 16:38:52 ﷐ 16:41:13 W-H-A-T?? 16:41:34 * oklopol puts his glasses on 16:57:10 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 17:04:31 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:05:36 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:07:08 -!- Hiato has joined. 17:07:48 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 17:25:52 you killed oklopol! 17:25:53 :( 17:25:59 oh well 17:26:03 ::pounces oklopolor:: 17:39:02 Furfaaaag 17:54:57 o 17:55:15 oklopol are you a fur? 17:55:17 you should be a fur 17:55:19 right slereah? 17:55:25 :( 17:56:10 what :(? 17:59:46 furs aren't really my thing 18:00:30 and now, I assumed you were talking to me, although perhaps that wasn't the case 18:01:00 hmm hmm 18:06:34 -!- timotiis has joined. 18:09:24 -!- olsner has joined. 18:11:56 -!- oklopolor has changed nick to lilja. 18:30:14 -!- calamari has joined. 18:36:30 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:37:02 hi tusho 18:37:07 oh, hi ais523 18:37:10 odd to see you arrive so late 18:37:12 esp. on sunday 18:37:18 yes, blame the ICFP 18:37:35 for both the fact I'm here late, and the fact I'm here on Sunday 18:42:24 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 18:44:18 http://www.lix.polytechnique.fr/Labo/Dale.Miller/lolli/lolli_seq.gif This is the logo of a language called 'Lolli'. 18:44:22 That must be intentional. 18:46:03 -!- calamari has joined. 18:46:27 -!- atrapado has joined. 18:55:45 Say, I should get around to properly rewriting that Underload compiler 18:55:47 Shouldn't I? 18:55:50 yep 18:56:04 incidentally, I'm thinking about a new lang which is a cross between Underload and Befunge 18:56:21 although I won't discuss it much further until after the ICFP contest 19:00:02 so ais 19:00:09 no real interesting paradigms huh? :( 19:00:20 you didn't like SMETANA? 19:00:24 sorry, SMATINY? 19:00:28 the improved version 19:00:44 no, it was silly. 19:00:54 smatiny is silly? 19:00:56 :| 19:01:05 sorry. ihope :P 19:01:09 what about Flip? I don't know much about it but it's got a pretty interesting paradigm 19:01:49 pointlessly odd. 19:02:06 i don't think augur actually likes esolangs. 19:02:15 How durst thou disturb my slumber? 19:02:23 I don't think OscarMeyr likes my INTERCAL style either... 19:02:43 ais523: i informed him that too many more PLEASEs would make it not compile 19:02:52 yes, I saw that 19:03:02 tusho: i wasnt asking about esolangs when i asked about interesting paradigms 19:03:15 not that i like these either 19:03:17 augur: guess what, all the new and interesting paradigms are generally esoteric 19:03:21 augur: new paradigms generally end up in esolangs first 19:03:27 sure but these are uninteresting. :P 19:03:31 augur: have you seen J? 19:03:40 i like J actually 19:03:46 that's not very esoteric, and an unusualish paradigm 19:04:00 i like J. :P 19:04:16 also Mathematica takes its paradigm to extreme levels, although other langs use bits of it, I don't really like Mathematica though 19:04:20 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 19:04:49 j can be a bit hard to read but 19:05:43 -!- Corun has joined. 19:06:04 -!- calamari has joined. 19:13:26 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 19:18:14 Oh, MacVim is nice. 19:19:29 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:20:54 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 19:22:22 ais523: Any snappy name for the UL->C compiler? 19:22:40 not that I can think of right now 19:43:38 -!- Corun has joined. 19:48:45 -!- calamari has joined. 19:55:58 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 19:59:24 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 20:04:55 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:06:57 ais523: Is your ICFP entry open source? 20:06:59 That'd be something. 20:07:09 tusho: it will be after the contest ends 20:07:13 it'd totally change the contest climate if everything was open source 20:07:19 for the better i think 20:07:24 in what way? 20:08:14 people would continually build upon each others work 20:08:22 and then people would take someone's derivation back and merge it in, etc 20:08:31 and loads of fun stuff 20:08:42 tusho: you mean source published during the contest? 20:08:51 yes 20:13:35 ais523: someone made a whole website about spectateswamp 20:13:36 http://www.spectateswamp.com/ 20:13:46 tusho: yes, I came across that before you 20:13:57 totally over the top, and I like that 20:14:14 two whole websites, in fact 20:14:32 wow 20:14:33 the second? 20:15:11 from memory, http://thestupidestmanintheuniverse.com, but I never visited it partly because I thought the name was a bit unfair 20:15:23 SpectateSwamp is at least intelligent enough to write VB, after all 20:15:43 ais523: i don't see any incompatibility ;) 20:15:56 also 20:15:57 probably: http://thestupidestmanonearth.com/ 20:16:06 aha 20:16:07 http://www.thestupidestmanonearth.com/ 20:16:08 it's the same site 20:16:11 just two domains 20:16:14 ah, ok 20:16:41 I can't believe that someone actually went to the trouble of buying that name simply to spread anti-SSDS FUD, though... 20:17:00 I think it's great :p. But, ssds? 20:17:40 tusho: SpectateSwamp's Desktop Search 20:17:50 the program that started the whole thread in the first place 20:17:52 ah, is that the video thing 20:17:54 yes 20:18:19 it's like a video player + grep with a more confusing interface 20:25:32 ais523: SS' biography is epic 20:25:33 { Swampie's future plans are detailed and well established in his mind. Basing his belief on an ancient and little-used calender system, it is Mr Pederson's conviction that the world is due to end in 2012. Whilst a belief in the world ending imminently would have crushed lesser men, Spectate thinks that due to his self-proclaimed 'Shaman' status and 'magic' stones, he can and will literally 'dance the problem away'. Whether he will be able to do so is yet t 20:30:08 ah, the swampthing from TDWTF forums 20:30:35 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 20:30:36 thedailywtf.com is funny! visit it! 20:32:16 it's not that funny any more. 20:32:28 tusho: it is often funny, I find 20:32:31 I still read every article 20:32:40 and MfD has improved to the point it's occasionally slightly amusing 20:33:30 the mutilations of it are funnier 20:33:47 a former employer of mine were on there once 20:34:12 ais523: mfd ... amusing? 20:34:23 ok, someone kill ais523, or he'll start imitating mfd in the future 20:34:27 -!- Corun has joined. 20:34:27 they replaced it with something utterly unlike the previous one 20:34:30 but yes, the imitations are better 20:34:32 and you don't want to know what happens when he does that 20:34:43 mfd 2.0, now with artistic ability! 20:34:58 ais523 is an artist too? 20:35:06 SimonRC: no I'm not 20:35:17 the only sort of art I do is the output of mathematical algorithms 20:35:17 so how would he imitate it? 20:35:26 and music 20:35:31 and esolangs of course, they're art too 20:36:51 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:37:26 mörn 20:37:31 morning 20:37:36 or evening from my point of view 20:37:55 I had some kind fof esolang dream 20:38:58 all I can remember was that the first action any non-trivial program had to take was to get the hastable of all variables and stuff it into a macro quick, before it disappeared 20:39:10 and that doesn't really make sense 20:39:22 it might do in a rewriting lang 20:39:45 ais523: music? 20:39:49 INTERCAL-produced music, I hope 20:39:55 about INTERCAL, and sounding like INTERCAL 20:39:56 no, I write music for fun 20:39:56 i like the "quick, before before it disappears" idea :P 20:40:01 *-before 20:40:21 SimonRC: that's great 20:40:23 call it Hasty 20:40:29 oklopol: there is a before before it disappears, that's where you get ready to delete it in the time before it disappears 20:41:00 :) 20:41:27 ais523: hmph, I just wrote a 46 line underload parser 20:41:33 how? 20:41:34 that's a bit better than what we got before ... 20:41:44 and pretty trivially 20:41:48 oh, it does other things than parsing 20:41:49 shall I show? 20:42:00 I thought 46 was a bit excessive given that Underload and Brainfuck are equally easy to parse 20:42:10 and yes, do show 20:42:17 http://paste.lisp.org/display/63637 20:43:26 (maybe a lang with a really enthusiastic garbage collector?) 20:43:41 (one must keep two references to everything around to prevent collection) 20:43:46 SimonRC: maybe a lang where all objects needed at least 2 references to them to prevent collection 20:43:51 ha, snap 20:43:56 just 'two references' seems kinda sucky 20:43:56 indeed 20:44:01 it must be a good idea in that case 20:44:01 it should be relative to how many references to everything there are 20:44:09 so you had to continually try and add more references 20:44:13 tusho: maybe a number of references proportional to the object's value and complexity 20:44:14 or it'd come and get you 20:44:20 so a large hashtable would need, say ten 20:44:23 ais523: yes, but you shouldn't just be able to get it right then leave it 20:44:27 in addition to all the internal references it had 20:44:27 maybe there must be a reference on the heap, and stack ones don't count 20:44:30 you should have to stay wary over time 20:44:34 tusho: most objects grow over time 20:44:40 at least, most big objects 20:44:41 yes, but still 20:45:02 but people would end up creating a web of objects each of which referenced everything else and also each other 20:45:04 ais523: like the parser? 20:45:07 and use malloc-like functions to manage memory 20:45:09 tusho: yes 20:45:09 i tried to make it as haskelly as possible 20:45:35 and that is just a parser, and it would take 45 lines to parse Brainfuck the same way... 20:45:42 * tusho writes a deparse :: [AST] -> String 20:45:50 ais523: yes, but remember our other haskell one 20:45:55 the parser was hideous and going on 100 lines 20:46:40 anyway, when I get round to speccing it, I think you'll like Shove (my Befunge-Underload hybrid) 20:46:51 it's the first lang in which I've ever used INTERCAL quotes to make things easier 20:47:00 heh, awesome 20:47:16 undirected quotes help a lot in two dimensions, what happens if you hit a paren from underneath, for instance? 20:47:34 ais523: indeed 20:47:39 you can just use '" and "' as ( and ) respectively to simulate parens 20:49:50 What's insane, is to bury textual information in video files. - SpectateSwap 20:49:54 isn't that what he reccomends? 20:49:58 *recommends 20:51:29 AnMaster: if you're actually there, I'm in a situation where I could actually benefit from the C speed tricks of yours tusho doesn't like 20:51:41 I'm already using register and inline where appropriate, anything else I should do? 20:51:55 s/actually// (the first one) 20:51:58 ais523: i like it when justified 20:51:59 sorry, thinko 20:52:00 like ICFP 20:52:09 i don't like it when it's a befunge compiler more optimised than python and ruby 20:52:12 like ICFP in a realtime-performance problem, yes 20:52:16 and s/compiler/interpreter/ 20:52:23 (deewiant's quote on this was good, it was basically: guido and matz know when the optimisations actually _apply_) 20:52:31 ick is a Befunge 'compiler' but it just bundles an interpreter 20:52:38 tusho: I like the Rules of Optimisation 20:52:41 First rule: Don't do it. 20:52:46 Second rule: Don't do it /yet/. 20:52:47 :) 20:53:08 The third rule is: Don't do it until you've figured out, by testing, what bit actually needs optimising 20:53:16 but that one isn't as funny, although still just as important 20:53:22 Foruth rule: Don't do it. 20:54:34 ais523: it occurs to me that the only actual hard bit (to write) about compiling underload is the 'unrolling' 20:54:43 yes 20:54:59 of course a parser in C does that for you, more or less, with the pointers 20:55:03 unrolling? 20:55:08 ah 20:55:09 oklopol: basically 20:55:14 well go on 20:55:17 a(b(c)d)e 20:55:18 -> 20:55:34 a1e 1=b2d 2=c 20:55:36 maybe, if one can do some sort of dataflow analysis on underload, quoted things can be turned into actual control structures 20:55:37 {a<1>e,b<2>d,c} 20:55:41 oklopol: see? 20:55:43 you 'unroll it' 20:55:46 by replacing nested structures 20:55:48 with references to another 20:55:51 in a flat list 20:56:06 you use this because you can't get proper nested functions in c 20:56:12 so you compile each unrolled element seperately 20:56:14 with references 20:56:29 yep 20:56:55 but, yeah 20:56:59 it's pretty hard to write neatly in source 20:57:03 i think I can do it, though :p 20:57:19 each unrolled element is called a blimp, btw 20:57:21 neat. 20:57:25 tusho: lol 20:57:31 SimonRC: lol? 20:57:48 yes, lol at the "blimp" terminology 20:58:06 ah 20:58:07 :) 20:58:09 tusho: Underload will compile into Shove too, I think 20:58:11 it was a spur of the moment thing! 20:58:33 * tusho wonders how to open a file in the same directory as the current one in vim easily 21:03:04 :e filename 21:03:05 surely? 21:03:18 SimonRC: vim doesn't change dir to the dir of your current file 21:03:21 that'd be confusing with tabs 21:14:39 ais523: ([[Enclose],[Enclose,Blimp 0,Enclose]],[Enclose,Blimp 1,Enclose]) 21:14:42 hmph. 21:14:47 technically it's right. 21:14:50 but it's the wrong way around. 21:16:06 you can work with that, though? 21:17:15 ais523: yes, but I like nice numbering, so i'll tweak 21:17:15 ;) 21:17:18 also - (10,000 lines of Visual Basic code in One routine) 21:17:21 that's a pro?! 21:17:39 brb 21:19:11 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 21:19:24 tusho: generated? 21:21:11 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:31:43 -!- ihope has joined. 21:37:15 -!- Corun has joined. 21:41:13 -!- oklopol has left (?). 21:41:13 -!- oklopol has joined. 21:44:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:46:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:47:29 back 21:47:34 SimonRC: no 21:48:53 Co-incidentally, there was an article on rgrd that mentionned how the most fun amature games in a certain BASIC dialect tended to be 10000 lines in one routine. 21:50:19 Depends on your definition of "food" 21:50:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:50:27 wb ais523 21:50:48 thanks 21:50:50 and you win 21:50:57 i'm speaking of the norwegian part of 7-eleven here. it may be different elsewhere 21:52:11 (the scandinavian parts are licensed to a company (Reitan group) based here in trondheim) 21:52:14 http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=tusho&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a tusho's are appearing 21:52:23 (yahoo answers, something called 'piczo') 21:52:27 better start registering places 21:54:12 (although this does not seem to include finland afaict) 21:54:42 * SimonRC goes to bed. 21:56:47 GregorR: ^^^ slight followup to yesterday 22:01:35 ais523: can I randomly prod you about wikipedia administrative matters, I keep seeing drama whenever I click to a meta-page from a page without any real explanation of what actually happened 22:01:44 you're a wp administrator so obviously ominipotent 22:01:48 tusho: ok, but in a query or another channel 22:02:21 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 22:06:43 oerjan: Yeah, I see :P 22:07:07 oerjan: Suffice to say that 7/11 is not a place you go for food in the US ... sure, they advertise food, and they sell antacids so you can eat their food, but it's not a happy experience. 22:07:32 heh 22:08:09 GregorR: lmao 22:08:14 oh, and: 22:08:32 Deranged in-denial spammer from #haskell has conversation. http://rafb.net/p/10WLBR49.txt 22:09:51 Wow. 22:09:53 That's bizarre. 22:10:25 a place like that would probably not be able to survive in norway. we're so rich no one can sell cheap lousy food here :D 22:10:37 GregorR: More batshit insane: 22:10:38 http://rafb.net/p/xgGJRI55.txt 22:15:09 AnMaster: if you're actually there, I'm in a situation where I could actually benefit from the C speed tricks of yours tusho doesn't like 22:15:11 oh? 22:15:17 AnMaster: it's the ICFP 22:15:18 I'm already using register and inline where appropriate, anything else I should do? 22:15:22 it's full of realtime stuff 22:15:23 well I wouldn't use register 22:15:30 I believe the compiler is better at that 22:15:30 AnMaster: it's a realtime program 22:15:31 literally realtime 22:15:36 he needs all the speed he can get 22:15:40 I only use it for quick throwaway variables, anyway I think gcc ignores it 22:15:54 because it's better at figuring it than me 22:15:55 or so it thinks 22:15:59 who knows, maybe it actually is 22:16:16 ais523, well what are you trying to do? if you want hard real time you need an OS supporting it 22:16:19 like QNX 22:16:27 AnMaster: it has to run on Linux 22:16:35 ais523, well linux 2.6.what? 22:16:38 and I'm trying to do lots of simulations in realtime so I can pick the best one 22:16:41 AnMaster: I can check 22:16:53 and with what compile time options 22:17:01 AnMaster: I choose the compile time options 22:17:08 right now I'm just using -O3 though 22:17:12 what about getting better nice level? 22:17:20 ais523, try profile feedback 22:17:43 AnMaster: can't be root 22:17:52 hrrm 22:17:53 and profile feedback sounds good, I can't remember how to do it though 22:17:57 a sec 22:18:18 * oerjan thinks someone needs to add a filter to the esolangs wiki for those latest spams 22:18:28 I can't do it, I'm only an admin 22:18:32 ic 22:18:43 I can alter the site JS but that won't help against bot spammers, as they'll just ignore it 22:18:45 -!- CakeProphet_ has joined. 22:18:50 -O3 -fprofile-generate -combine -fwhole-program -fno-ident -fvisibility=hidden -funsafe-loop-optimizations -funsafe-math-optimizations 22:18:54 what about that? 22:18:59 then run program 22:19:00 after that 22:19:16 not under gprof, just by itself? 22:19:18 -O3 -fprofile-use -freorder-functions -combine -fwhole-program -fno-ident -fvisibility=hidden -funsafe-loop-optimizations -funsafe-math-optimizations 22:19:23 ais523, indeed 22:19:26 also -combine is pointless because I only have one input file 22:19:31 :) 22:19:34 ais523, ok skip combine then 22:19:44 ais523, this may be worth a try 22:19:56 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:20:04 ais523, if you need real time, do you know what CPU? 22:20:09 AnMaster: yes 22:20:12 -!- CakeProphet_ has changed nick to CakeProphet. 22:20:21 AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2700+ 22:20:22 because if you got something fancy you will want inline asm for prefetching data and such 22:20:26 SSE stuff 22:20:30 uh 22:20:37 ais523: you don't know what cpu the final will be run on 22:20:39 just yours 22:20:41 AnMaster: I couldn't trust myself to write inline asm safely, not having an Athlon myself to test on 22:20:43 tusho: yes I do 22:20:46 oh 22:20:46 okay 22:20:48 I'm not on an Athlomn 22:20:50 ah... 22:20:53 s/mn/n/ 22:20:54 qemu can emulate an athlon 22:20:54 ais523: 22:20:55 can't i 22:20:56 t 22:21:03 ais523, well you want to know what sort of SSE it support 22:21:03 probably but I'm not risking inline asm 22:21:18 flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 mmx fxsr sse syscall mmxext 3dnowext 3dnow up ts 22:21:23 from the info provided by the organisers 22:22:02 -march=athlon-xp -msse -mfpmath=sse,387 22:22:03 ais523: if you win this, you'll be the official #Esoterician With Money again 22:22:04 ;P 22:22:06 *maybe* 22:22:22 I'm not sure if -mfpmath=sse,387 or -mfpmath=sse will be fastest on that thing 22:22:23 tusho: wait, did he stop being it? 22:22:32 I've already decided that I daren't mess about with -march 22:22:40 ais523: do you still have the wolfram prize money? 22:22:45 ais523, you want the correct -march for the target 22:22:45 simply because if I get it wrong the program dumps core and I'm disqualified 22:22:46 really 22:22:49 tusho: I'm using it to live off 22:22:54 ais523: thought so 22:22:55 :p 22:23:18 AnMaster: he can't touch the final server 22:23:21 ah 22:23:24 so I couldn't test it 22:23:24 it's the ICFP contest 22:23:29 he has to test it on his machine 22:23:32 then it's run on their servers 22:23:38 and if it breaks, zzt, disqualified 22:23:56 hrrm 22:24:01 ais523, use -mtune then 22:24:05 not -march 22:24:15 ah, that means tune for that, but still work on other x86s? 22:24:16 and skip -msse and -mfpmath 22:24:22 ais523, indeed that is the case 22:24:40 also, ais523, you can ask in #icfpcontest 22:24:44 i'm sure they can tell you about the machinaes 22:24:45 ais523, you probably want -march=i686, because if they use a 486 or 386 they should go to hell anyway ;P 22:25:52 Ooh! A new installation of Batshit Insane coming up! I'm sure GregorR will love this one! 22:25:58 ais523, also what gcc version? 22:26:15 AnMaster: I can use whatever compiler I like 22:26:19 I have to submit the binary 22:26:23 ais523, aha 22:26:26 either that or I can submit sources and a compile script 22:26:33 and compile it on their servers, which will have gcc 22:26:36 but compiling here seems safer 22:26:41 ais523, binary then so you can select *version* of gcc 22:26:50 which version do you suggest 22:26:57 ais523, however profiling will depend on target 22:27:03 so maybe compile script is better 22:27:18 AnMaster: I couldn't profile then run over there 22:27:24 because the first run will be the official one... 22:27:27 think about it 22:27:29 I see 22:27:50 well any profiling is likely to help somewhat 22:28:05 as for gcc version, I guess a recent one 22:28:10 try them 22:28:15 gcc 4.2 or gcc 4.3 22:28:29 I still admit I use gcc 4.1.2 here :P 22:28:37 I admit I still use* 22:29:17 ais523, also you want to try -Wunreachable-code 22:29:23 and 22:29:29 -Wunused-function -Wunused-label -Wunused-value -Wunused-variable 22:29:36 to find anything you don't use 22:29:44 will that speed up the program? 22:29:52 ais523, however, be warned that -Wunreachable-code can give false positives 22:29:57 ais523, it will point out dead code 22:30:06 so you can remove it (if it isn't a false positive) 22:30:09 that could help 22:30:15 well, I have if(0) deliberately 22:30:19 to keep out debug code 22:30:23 I think it'll be optimised away 22:30:24 ais523, also, move test conditions outside loops 22:30:30 ais523, remove it from final 22:30:39 use #ifdef instead 22:30:40 yes, I know that trick, I'll have to see where I can use it 22:30:45 and I do use #ifdef in most places 22:30:50 -!- olsner has quit. 22:31:04 ais523, if you know your least x86 CPU, consider using SSE if you can 22:31:18 ais523, btw what is the task? 22:31:40 http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/photos/flight/ESOE-2008-07-12/ <-- btw I guess no one here is interested in that 22:31:55 AnMaster: http://smlnj.org/icfp08-contest/task.html 22:33:27 * ais523 generates some profiling ingo 22:33:30 s/ingo/info/ 22:33:36 wow 22:33:38 that is hard 22:34:02 I'm doing the task by simulating possibilities faster than realtime 22:34:04 to see which one's best 22:34:13 I see 22:34:18 thus the need for speed 22:34:21 ais523, well what is real time here 22:34:32 AnMaster: the speed at which the rover and the Martians move 22:34:36 I see 22:34:40 that depends on cpu a lot 22:34:49 not really because there are delays involved 22:34:54 although a faster CPU will be better 22:34:58 but theirs isn't very good 22:35:04 neither is mine, really 22:35:09 ais523, also I guess inline x86 asm wouldn't be popular here, if NASA really plans to reuse it 22:35:11 but mine's better than theirs 22:35:16 AnMaster: I think that bit's a joke 22:35:22 ah... 22:37:34 AnMaster: scroll a bit and see the martians... :P 22:37:41 yes 22:37:55 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:38:05 GregorR: THE NEXT INSTALLATION!!!!!! 22:38:05 http://rafb.net/p/oAmySM83.txt 22:38:07 It's huge. 22:38:10 And hilariously awful. 22:38:36 rover.c:138: warning: no coverage for function ‘projectstep’ found 22:38:57 AnMaster: why didn't the profiling work? Do you have any ideas? 22:39:03 do I have to run under a profiler? 22:39:06 ais523, um 22:39:10 how did you build it 22:39:21 AnMaster: with the command line you gave for profiling 22:39:29 ais523, and no if you did it the way I said (NOT -pg, that is another type of profiling) it should work 22:39:31 I have a no coverage warning for all my functions 22:39:43 ais523, I assume you used the line I said...? 22:39:46 yes 22:39:53 it made a .gcda file 22:39:56 and a .gcnu file 22:40:01 err 22:40:04 http://rafb.net/p/vkcFS963.html 22:40:06 ais523, ^ 22:40:13 that is what I use for speed runs of cfunge 22:41:04 it is not in the repo because I don't support anyone using it 22:41:07 it is insane 22:41:12 for anything but speed runs 22:41:52 unsafe-loop-optimizations? Seriously? I checked the unsafe-math-optimizations to make sure they were safe in the context of my program, but loop optimizations, did you check all the loops in your program by hand for safety? 22:42:11 good. we cannot have anything insane in #esoteric. no sir! 22:42:56 "did you check all the loops in your program by hand for safety?" <-- yes 22:43:04 !!! 22:43:06 "did you check all the loops in your program by hand for safety?" <-- yes 22:43:08 Ladies and gentlemen. 22:43:09 AnMaster. 22:43:12 actually, I was planning to do the same in my program 22:43:15 so tusho can laugh at me too 22:43:22 thanks ais523! 22:43:23 Crazy person who has no idea what is appropriate for optimization. 22:43:29 ais523: No, you need realtime performance. 22:43:33 Befunge does not. 22:43:40 tusho, what about real time befunge 22:43:45 Not even Ruby, the slowest of the slow, would be reasonable like that. 22:43:45 what are the rules? no infinite loops with a nonconstant condition is one of them 22:43:48 what's the other? 22:43:48 AnMaster: It does not exist. 22:43:48 a planned extension in the future 22:43:55 It should not exist. 22:44:01 tusho, for use in nuclear reactors! 22:44:03 Why? Because it is a pointless and ridiculous idea that nobody will ever toy with. 22:44:03 actually, there's nothing intriniscally slow about Befunge 22:44:29 what are the rules? no infinite loops with a nonconstant condition is one of them <-- well see the -Wunsafe..., that will tell you 22:45:20 GregorR: oh lord, it continues 22:45:25 he has a pretty shitty personality. 22:45:28 incidentally, I googled the error message I got 22:45:36 and found nothing but the gcc source code, and patches to it 22:45:46 ais523, what error? 22:45:53 the no coverage found error 22:46:03 ah 22:46:15 ais523, well my script works for cfunge, I checked 22:46:26 THE FINAL INSTALLATION 22:46:27 http://rafb.net/p/Eou8W588.txt 22:46:35 personally, I don't see anything wrong with optimising Befunge for speed 22:46:40 actually, it's an interesting challenge 22:46:43 sort of like golfing an esolang 22:46:46 but for speed not size 22:46:57 except he's serious about it, ais523 22:47:12 or if he's not, he's very good at hiding that fact and prolonging it for as long as possible 22:47:17 _very_ good 22:47:33 but for speed not size <-- thanks for defending me! 22:47:40 tusho: why do you think there's a -F option in C-INTERCAL? 22:47:56 ais523: but that's funny 22:47:58 his is just not 22:48:12 tusho, well I find posix_fallocate quite fun! ;P 22:48:17 oh, and the first person to point out the wonderful irony at the top of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Smith_Jones wins a cookie 22:48:18 well, ok, -F was mostly a joke, but you have to admit that INTERCAL wins on many benchmarks now 22:49:05 tusho: I don't have to point out the irony, you did 22:49:16 static inline int tusho_fadvise(int fd, off_t offset, off_t len, int advice) { posix_fallocate(fd, offset, len, advice); } 22:49:18 * AnMaster runs 22:49:20 well yes, but you have to specify what it is, ais523 22:49:41 ais523, what does -F do now again? 22:49:52 tusho: the same thing that happened to Esperanza, except that it's a project to prevent that happening in the first place 22:50:18 ais523: actually, it's the box and the line directly below it 22:50:18 AnMaster: verifies that the program is deterministic and takes no input, runs it to see what happens, records the output and generates a program that contains all the output and just cats it out 22:50:24 {a principled scientist} 22:50:28 {join the wikiproject Homeopathy} 22:50:43 tusho, indeed 22:50:55 tusho: I thought the irony was setting up a bureaucratic process to complain about bureaucratic processes 22:50:59 or did you miss that one? 22:51:07 that's ironic too 22:51:09 -!- CakeProphet_ has joined. 22:51:12 that's a lot of irony 22:51:15 too much for one day 22:51:15 -!- CakeProphet_ has changed nick to CakeProphet. 22:51:16 and I chuckled a bit 22:51:17 ;P 22:51:24 but I grinned madly when I saw the next sentence 22:51:26 posix_irony(); 22:51:31 * AnMaster ducks 22:54:02 I'm annoyed, both AnMaster and Google say that it should work fine, but gcc is saying that it isn't and won't tell me why not 22:54:21 ais523, try that script on the cfunge sources 22:54:23 --fexplain-yourself 22:54:28 AnMaster: he doesn't have time for that! 22:54:37 about 21 hours left 22:54:48 AnMaster: what does -fno-ident do, by the way? 22:54:51 ais523, it should work out of box 22:54:54 he needs to refine, refine, optimize, optimize 22:55:01 ais523, just remove some pointless metadata 22:55:01 as much as he can 22:55:20 ais523, about what gcc version was used 22:55:38 that gcc puts in a .comment section in the binary 22:55:58 ah, I forgot the -O3 on the original compile... 22:56:22 ais523, oh btw you also want -Wl,-O1,--hash-style=both,--as-needed,-z,combreloc 22:56:35 optimize the /linker/? 22:56:40 but I'm only linking one file 22:56:44 "both" instead of "gnu" because the target may not support the both style 22:56:49 ais523, yes that is correct 22:56:51 but 22:56:55 you link libc 22:56:57 I bet 22:56:59 yes 22:57:08 maybe libm too 22:57:11 yes 22:57:15 for trig 22:57:16 AnMaster, you scare me 22:57:18 there you are then 22:57:30 maybe I should generate a lookup table for sin and cos at the start of the program 22:57:41 ais523: yes 22:57:43 or just hardcode it 22:57:45 "both" instead of "gnu" because the target may not support the both style <-- "may not support the gnu style" was what I meant 22:57:47 because all angles are only accurate to 1/10 degree 22:57:50 so that's only 2600 angles to check 22:57:57 ais523: hardcoding it = huuuuuuuuuge file, but still 22:57:58 very fast 22:58:04 aye 22:58:09 very fast 22:58:13 but no idea if it is sane 22:58:17 ah, ais523 22:58:22 generate tables.c 22:58:22 and do 22:58:24 #include "tables.c" 22:58:28 in your program 22:58:28 XD 22:58:31 then it's easier to edit 22:58:33 tusho: yes, that's the trick 22:58:40 and I've put lookup tables into programs before 22:58:40 yeah, give that a go 22:58:54 including C files, nice one, but oh so devilous 22:58:55 once spent 9 hours debugging a program where I'd accidentally written the first half of the lookup table twice 22:58:58 rather than the whole table 22:59:17 AnMaster: you are /so/ getting a mention in the README for this... 22:59:19 ais523, auto generate lookup table 22:59:24 ais523, oh? 22:59:28 I'll write a script to generate it 22:59:29 thanks I guess 22:59:46 * tusho is mentioned in the readme too 22:59:47 i'm special! 22:59:56 ais523, BE SURE TO NOT USE A PENTIUM WITH THE FDIV BUG! 22:59:59 ;P 23:00:09 whoa, it's 1999 23:00:13 what did you do AnMaster 23:00:16 tusho, haha ;P 23:00:25 I thought he had an old computer 23:00:28 tusho: nah, it's 1993 23:00:30 and it's Septembe 23:00:33 s/$/r/ 23:00:35 ais523: oh, yeah, forgot 23:00:39 I installed sdate yesterday 23:00:42 haha :D 23:00:45 Evolution seems not to like it, though 23:00:50 ais523, oh? 23:00:58 the september that never ended until usenet got shut down? 23:01:02 AnMaster: sdate wraps libc to return dates in September 1993 23:01:07 lament: it hasn't been shut down. 23:01:12 besides, it's the internet as a whole 23:01:23 but many programs barf on getting a day of month greater than 31 23:01:24 ais523, oh some usenet joke 23:01:38 but many programs barf on getting a day of month greater than 31 <-- well not odd 23:01:42 AnMaster: sept 1993 was when aol gave its users usenet accses 23:01:49 tusho, I know........ 23:02:01 the regular september influx of newbies never ended 23:02:05 because AOL had them in abundance 23:02:09 tusho, I know......................................... 23:02:11 and after AOL, Google 23:02:14 so it's still ongoing 23:02:21 ........................................................... 23:02:22 fucking newbies 23:02:25 ........................................................................................................................................... 23:02:50 another problem is that the number of newbies reached a critical mass, and so people stayed as being newbies rather than becoming more sensible over time 23:02:57 in fact, everybody born after sept. 1993 is automatically a moron 23:03:06 lament: you just indirectly insulted me 23:03:07 :( 23:03:14 that's how bad it was 23:03:21 lament: I think the problem is that although some newbies are good, you get a lot of bad ones too 23:03:34 I was a sufficiently good newbie on comp.lang.c that nobody complained much when I posted 23:03:48 and if you see the amount of complaining about trivialities that happens there, that's quite an impressive achievement 23:03:53 isn't comp.lang.c very elitist? 23:04:00 tusho: not exactly, but it's very pernickety 23:04:07 i've read it a bit 23:04:09 you have to do things exactly right or all the regulars complain 23:04:12 people just sweat over everything 23:04:19 so it gives off the impression of being elitist 23:04:21 AHA!! But seciton 3.348979c8qw79127398237498234798234 of the standard says YOU CAN'T CALL IT THAT 23:04:26 I am refusing to help you. Goodbye. 23:04:44 ##C is just the same way. 23:04:56 ##c's worse 23:04:57 incidentally, I asked for help to see if a bit of C-INTERCAL was legal, they helped me improve it a lot and asked why on earth I was trying to do what I was doing 23:04:59 because it's realtime communication 23:05:00 and I said it was in the spec 23:05:04 and they said weird spec 23:05:06 so they don't bother detailing exactly what you got wrong 23:05:10 for fun, you can always go to ##C and suggest that arrays and pointers are the same. 23:05:25 lament: oo, think i'll do that 23:05:33 be careful 23:05:40 tusho: are you really going to? 23:05:43 let me watch... 23:05:44 ais523: i just did 23:05:50 arrays and pointers are the same right? 23:06:09 * ais523 waits to see how quickly tusho's kickbanned as an obvious troll 23:06:10 asking it was probably bad, should have somehow stated it 23:06:20 asking is not trollish enough 23:06:20 lament: i'm going to say that now 23:06:27 it was a rhetorical question 23:06:31 for fun, you can always go to ##C and suggest that arrays and pointers are the same. 23:06:34 well they are 23:06:39 on a machine level 23:06:41 AnMaster: say it there. 23:06:45 AnMaster: go to ##C and defend tusho. 23:06:48 but not on a logical level 23:06:50 AnMaster: actually, on the machine level they have different lengths 23:06:52 lament: hah 23:07:00 a pointer is 4 bytes long on x86, most arrays are longer 23:07:08 but you normally deal with pointers to the array's element 23:08:57 tusho, C is about details. if you cannot keep them in mind, you will fail. 23:09:00 that's the crux of the issue 23:09:02 yep, it sounds just like comp.lang.c to me, but I rather like comp.lang.c 23:09:14 it explains both the behaviour of comp.lang.c and of ##C 23:09:18 ais523: feel glad that poppavic isn't there 23:09:25 poppavic is the only being worse than a markov chain 23:09:28 unless you're really anal, you'll just fail at writing C 23:09:35 that's why they're anal 23:09:40 it's a necessity 23:09:46 ais523: you ruin all my fun 23:09:57 poppavic is probably banned 23:10:01 after you left: Coward. 23:10:14 ais523: well, at least I trolled him 23:10:15 :) 23:10:16 lament: seriously? 23:10:20 awesome. 23:12:51 unless you're really anal, you'll just fail at writing C 23:12:55 well hm 23:13:00 does tusho think I'm anal? 23:13:04 AnMaster: C, not AnMasterC 23:13:17 * AnMaster slaps tusho with a super-large, super-smelly, decaying digitally-enhanced reinforced IRC-grade trout 23:13:33 (lame alias yes) 23:13:47 * tusho slaps AnMaster 23:13:53 hah 23:14:16 -!- Algonquian has joined. 23:14:35 hi Algonquian 23:14:36 who be you 23:16:27 * oerjan summons a bigger fish 23:16:39 oerjan: this channel is pg-13. 23:17:01 * oerjan lies on the floor, screaming with laughter 23:17:32 well I'm glad I can make someone laugh 23:17:56 -!- timotiis has quit (Connection timed out). 23:18:31 also, http://www.darthsanddroids.net/ 23:21:15 oerjan, fun! 23:21:40 AnMaster: thanks for the advice, it's really helped, I actually just got 3/5 on a version of the spiral map where all the obstacles were 3 times as large and I've never got anywhere near that at all 23:21:45 the extra performance helped it find better paths 23:22:03 ais523, interesting 23:24:14 4/5 on another run 23:24:18 although it bounced off things a lot 23:24:25 ICFP? 23:24:30 lament: yes 23:24:31 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 23:25:46 are you winning with intercal? 23:25:54 lament: no, I'm using C 23:26:03 ais523: you promised to include some intercal 23:26:05 you'd better 23:26:07 this contest requires pretty much all the thing that INTERCAL is bad at 23:26:18 all the more reason to use it 23:26:24 tusho: I didn't promise, I just thought it would be nice to use it for something 23:26:37 but if you write me a JSON library in INTERCAL, I'll use it to generate some maps 23:26:46 hmph. 23:26:49 i will 23:26:51 if you write me a string lib 23:26:57 ugh, that'll take weeks 23:27:02 INTERCAL really does need a decent string lib 23:27:08 and I have weeks but not now 23:27:15 that seems like a decent summer holiday project 23:27:27 ideally it would work with both C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL string handling rules 23:27:52 ais523: Ideally, it would be a C{,LC}-INTERCAL polyglot, that when run, would generate a C-INTERCAL or CLC-INTERCAL version to stdout 23:27:59 the opposite of what you ran it on 23:28:02 so run it on C-INTERCAL for CLC 23:28:04 and vise-versa 23:28:34 that would be neat 23:28:39 can't you at least pick some other, saner language 23:28:40 there are several ways to tell between them 23:28:44 befunge or something 23:28:59 lament: he'd have to use cfunge 23:29:00 QED 23:29:03 ignorret is different on all three INTERCAL compilers I can find nowadays 23:29:07 ;) 23:29:19 and the syntax differs between CLC-INTERCAL and C-INTERCAL by default 23:29:23 also language features can be tested 23:29:34 ais523: When run on J-INTERCAL it should output "AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHHAHA" and exit. 23:29:36 e.g. computed come from to rule out J-INTERCAL, lectures to rule out C-INTERCAL 23:31:38 lalala 23:31:57 tusho: when run on J-INTERCAL it should output itself in Java bytecode 23:32:23 ais523: ... and the bytecode version, when run with J-INTERCAL, should output that and exit 23:32:41 you mean it shouldn't contain DO anywhere? 23:32:52 that="AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHHAHA 23:32:57 oh, ok 23:33:07 a Java bytecode/INTERCAL quine is probably impossible, though 23:33:14 maybe I should implement reverse comments in something 23:33:23 a comment syntax "comment backward to the beginning of the program" 23:33:29 so you can write whatever you like before it 23:33:36 the last one in the program would be honoured 23:33:47 anyway, going home 23:33:51 thanks everyone for the help 23:33:55 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1""). 23:34:08 bye ais 23:34:09 :) 23:34:29 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 23:41:21 -!- CakeProphet_ has joined. 23:41:29 -!- CakeProphet_ has changed nick to CakeProphet. 23:42:53 oklopol: ok 23:49:16 oklopol: augur: another fun game: 23:49:20 http://www.jeffwu.net/games/ngame.swf 23:49:28 hmm, that one's distorted 23:49:28 try 23:49:29 http://www.addictinggames.com/ngame.html 23:57:51 This is not very addictive 23:57:57 Try "Crash" 23:58:01 That was an awesome game 23:58:07 Also awesome music 23:58:18 Slereah2: This IS addictive. 23:59:37 HAHAHAHA 23:59:40 I did a huge leap from one side to the other 23:59:43 cause I had 4 seconds left 23:59:45 and had to get to the door 23:59:46 I reached it 23:59:49 but splatted onthe ground 23:59:51 and died 2008-07-14: 00:41:38 addicting games? 00:41:39 hm 00:41:41 nethack! 00:41:45 anyway, night 00:43:38 nethack isn't addicting 00:55:26 nethack is addictive 00:56:31 no it's not 00:58:50 ...this game is very addicting 00:58:51 but 00:58:53 how do you jump? 00:59:05 CakeProphet: which one 00:59:10 n? 00:59:12 and if so, shift 00:59:28 x apparently works too 01:01:59 tusho: if you're not addicted to nethack, it's because you're young and stupid. 01:02:19 lament: 2 out of 2 01:06:08 I'm pretty bad at this game 01:06:14 it's actually kind of laggy on my computer. 01:06:30 and 01:06:33 I don't know what nethack is. 01:06:47 CakeProphet: I don't know what nethack is.CakeProphet: I don't know what nethack is.CakeProphet: I don't know what nethack is.CakeProphet: I don't know what nethack is.CakeProphet: I don't know what nethack is.CakeProphet: I don't know what nethack is.CakeProphet: I don't know what nethack is.CakeProphet: I don't know what nethack is.CakeProphet: I don't know what nethack is.CakeProphet: I don't know what nethack is.CakeProphet: I don't know what nethack is. 01:06:49 CakeProphet: I don't know what nethack is. 01:09:53 ...so sue me 01:10:41 * oerjan calls CakeProphet Sue 01:10:49 that's what you meant, right? 01:15:48 ...-facepalm.jpg- 01:16:48 ....restarting. 01:16:53 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lolwhut?"). 01:17:38 Gaiz 01:17:49 I discovered esolangs with this very picture D: 01:17:50 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/langs.png 01:18:01 Ugly picture, yes, but.. 01:18:12 no tusho stop 01:18:18 i have to be up at 8 tomorrow :( 01:18:22 Slereah2: COBOL is totally wrong there. 01:18:29 augur: Tough. Now you will be playing N. 01:18:30 Forever. 01:19:13 Isn't COBOL an old businessman? D: 01:19:28 COBOL is evil. 01:20:39 ah but if you squint just right it looks like he's got horns 01:21:30 Also why is Lisp a hairy oriental monk? 01:22:19 Slereah2: Because Scheme is a monk. 01:22:26 And Common Lisp is Scheme with gnarly cruft. 01:23:28 What's the difference between common and scheme? 01:23:37 Scheme is minimalistic and useless. 01:23:42 Common Lisp is useful and crufty. 01:23:45 scheme is awesome :P 01:24:37 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 01:25:00 augur: and useless, admit it :p 01:25:08 so I finally switched over to Linux. 01:25:19 Well, since I only programmed in scheme and the only LISP I know is the original article, I'm not too sure why 01:26:07 that reminds me... can anyone link me to that MIT book that used scheme? 01:26:08 I lost it 01:26:16 SICP 01:26:24 SICP SICP SICP SICP SICP SICP SICP SICP SICP SICP 01:26:26 Ill urine. 01:27:18 What's .nb? 01:33:25 yes.... what's the link to it 01:34:05 CakeProphet: USE THE GOOGLE 01:35:22 done 01:39:30 I have an article titled "Fecal vomiting of rare origin". 01:43:58 Slereah2: o.o 01:45:57 It's medical, don't worry 01:46:19 From "California and western medicine", volume XXII, n8 01:46:30 *XXIII 01:47:46 "N. 4986: Male, age 29. Admitted November, 1923, complaining of "vomiting at weekly intervals, frequent diarrhea and eructions of gas without colic." 01:54:22 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:55:35 fecal vomiting is fun 01:56:10 All the cool kids are doing it. 01:57:20 -!- tusho has quit. 02:07:28 What's an eruction? 02:07:46 Burping? 02:23:19 I think so. 02:31:31 -!- Corun has quit ("Macros are cheating"). 02:44:52 I hope so. 03:10:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("Macaroni is not"). 03:12:01 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:26:35 i pray it is so. 03:53:10 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:05:15 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 04:05:35 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:01:23 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:02:29 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:36:05 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 06:08:08 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 06:09:34 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:10:52 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:23:43 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:34:54 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lolwhut?"). 06:37:51 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 07:10:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("squeezing resources for nexuiz"). 07:13:42 -!- augur has joined. 07:30:12 -!- CakeProphet_ has joined. 07:30:34 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Nick collision from services.). 07:30:44 -!- CakeProphet_ has changed nick to CakeProphet. 07:34:31 -!- CakeProphet has changed nick to nickesrv. 07:35:09 -!- nickesrv has changed nick to CakeProphet. 07:44:07 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:05:33 -!- jix has joined. 08:12:03 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 08:14:16 -!- jix has joined. 08:20:52 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:26:01 -!- puzzlet has joined. 08:26:43 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 08:34:13 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:35:13 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 08:45:14 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 08:45:34 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:01:16 -!- sebbu has quit ("reboot"). 09:13:49 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:44:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 10:08:22 -!- RedDak has joined. 10:08:58 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 10:10:35 -!- puzzlet has joined. 10:11:29 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:45:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Remote closed the previous member app"). 10:57:05 -!- Algonquian has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:05:30 -!- lilja has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:11:12 -!- olsner has joined. 12:14:01 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:34:55 -!- lilja has joined. 12:35:01 -!- AnMaster has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:51:16 -!- lilja has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 12:55:42 -!- lilja has joined. 13:14:25 tusho: i've completed n a few times 13:14:25 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:14:29 -!- puzzlet has joined. 13:14:54 nethack is not that interesting 13:16:58 well, i only like games where the way to move around is interesting, or where you can build things 13:17:25 the first one is the esolang type, the second is the conventional programming type 13:19:04 also that online version is only the first 30 levs 13:19:10 they're trivial 13:19:36 that was the first version of n, i think i passed it in like 2 sessions 13:20:11 n? 13:20:11 but perhaps i'll play now, anyway 13:20:16 http://www.addictinggames.com/ngame.html 13:21:41 -!- lilja has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:26:50 oh, right, that's the episode view, long time since i played, i don't think i did 150 levels in two sessions :=) 13:29:13 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:34:21 -!- Judofyr has joined. 13:43:23 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:43:30 -!- puzzlet has joined. 13:54:36 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 13:55:19 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:12:05 -!- AnMaster has joined. 14:29:59 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:30:15 I've still got a couple of highscores online in N, I think 14:30:25 N? 14:30:26 haven't played it for a year or two though 14:31:00 http://www.harveycartel.org/metanet/n.html 14:31:00 http://www.addictinggames.com/ngame.html 14:31:05 ya 14:31:42 it's quite fun, one of the few ones where you really feel you're in control of the guy 14:31:55 aye 14:32:11 apart from enemies that can follow you, i really never die because i fail a jump or something 14:32:26 well 14:32:34 unless i'm playing for a record time or something 14:33:37 I'ma check my N_score_parser.rb to see if I have any highscores up 14:35:42 evidently not :-/ 14:36:01 2007-05-21 I still had 75 14:36:13 in what levs? 14:36:32 ah, back in february I had 357, w00t 14:36:40 all around 14:36:41 Found 357/600 highscores - 59.5000% - under the name Deewiant. 14:36:41 Average position 9.1849. 14:36:56 a year later... 14:36:57 Found 75/600 highscores - 12.5000% - under the name Deewiant. 14:36:57 Average position 14.0400. 14:37:04 and now nothing 14:38:11 the earliest two are episode 1 and level 1-4, the last are episode 99 and levels 99-0 through 99-3 14:38:37 so yeah, I played it quite a bit back then :-P 14:40:16 heh 14:40:37 no matter what the subject, someone here owns me at it 14:45:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:53:33 -!- olsner has quit. 15:01:21 -!- lilja has joined. 15:16:19 -!- olsner has joined. 15:56:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:57:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:02:03 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:12:34 -!- AnMaster has quit ("thunderstorms"). 16:13:42 -!- calamari has joined. 16:44:45 -!- tusho has joined. 16:45:16 hi ais523 16:45:22 hi tusho 16:45:34 i won 16:45:50 yep 16:49:30 the tables have turned 16:49:59 like, 90 degrees, but they may still have angular velocity left. 16:52:53 i have been winning lately oklopol 16:53:12 well, I'm kind of distracted atm... 16:53:26 quite 16:58:06 huh? 17:00:36 olsner: icfp 17:00:43 and our say-hi-first competition 17:01:00 oh, is it icfp now? 17:01:01 it's still on? I thought it was over already 17:01:22 ais523: almost over, right? 17:01:25 I've consistently missed icfp until it's already over the last few years 17:01:34 tusho: yes, it ends at 8pm our time 17:01:39 7pm UTC 17:01:46 or at least until it's definitely too late to organize some kind of participation 17:01:55 olsner: would you have participated otherwise? 17:02:18 ais523: judging from past experience with ICFP, no :) 17:02:39 but I would definitely have intended to 17:03:56 -!- atrapado has joined. 17:06:19 here's a snippet for my entry, by the way: 17:06:19 [[ 17:06:21 register long long timetoupdateto=timeinus(); 17:06:21 /* Just in case the contest takes place past midnight... */ 17:06:21 if(timetoupdateto ]] 17:06:32 I seriously doubt if that'll ever become relevant, but just in case... 17:07:23 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:08:07 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 17:18:04 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:18:16 it feels so wrong submitting binaries as well as sources... 17:20:57 if nothing else, there's the question of what platform you submit binaries for... what if your development platform happened to be a PDP-11? 17:21:06 olsner: they give full details 17:21:10 and a LiveCD with the OS on 17:21:34 also you can submit a shell-script that calls gcc as the binary if you like 17:21:36 but still... 17:23:16 they'll probably run it virtualised, but still it's not really quite sane to run randomly submitted binary code 17:25:04 olsner: it'll be heavily sandboxed 17:28:18 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 17:48:52 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 17:53:11 -!- timotiis has joined. 17:57:10 -!- atsampson has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:57:22 -!- atsampson has joined. 18:05:51 It can't be difficult to create a Game of Life pattern that goes at, say, 5/12c. You can make it move forward at 1/2c for 5,000,000 steps and stop for 1,000,000 steps. 18:13:55 Then do it. ;) 18:15:32 :-) 18:18:24 -!- AnMaster has joined. 18:18:49 -!- olsner has quit. 18:24:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:28:37 -!- olsner has joined. 18:38:10 ais523: what optimizations can you do to underload 18:38:12 apart frmo the trivial ones 18:38:23 number optimisation can be important 18:38:30 you have special tokens for Church numerals 18:38:40 ais523: i don't wanna change the language at all 18:38:47 you don't change the language 18:38:51 OK 18:39:00 you just change the internal representations of things like (*****:::::) 18:39:12 what about more complex versions of that? 18:39:16 unfortunately its hard to optimise that sort of thing too much because of the S comman 18:39:18 s/$/d/ 18:39:18 it seems unclean to only target *+:+ 18:39:29 so you remember the numeric value of all strings of *s and :s which are matched 18:39:50 i.e. always no fewer *s than :s at any given point, and hte same number overall 18:39:53 ais523: what about more complex phrasings of the same thing though? 18:39:55 then, when you have to execute one of tose 18:40:01 you just make repetitions of the preceding element 18:40:18 e.g. (***:*:::) is a number 18:40:29 also you can have things like !() in the middle which cancels things out 18:40:34 ais523, hi 18:40:35 but that can be peephole-optimised 18:40:37 hi AnMaster 18:40:38 ais523, how goes stuff? 18:40:41 pretty well 18:40:50 I've submitted what I think will be my final entry 18:40:55 nice 18:41:29 I'll post source once the competition ends 18:41:53 k 18:42:02 ais523, I hope you win 18:43:57 as I, but I'm skeptical 18:44:00 it's a pretty big contest 18:44:09 I don't really expect to win 18:44:14 although I think I've done reasonably well 18:45:18 ais523: very well I'd say 18:46:02 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:52:04 -!- timotiis_ has joined. 19:02:46 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:13:08 -!- fxkr has joined. 19:13:12 he all 19:13:19 + he tusho ^^ 19:13:22 hi fxkr 19:13:28 Oo you too here ^^ 19:13:31 tusho: pick an esolang at random 19:13:42 or I'll link to one of mine 19:13:44 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload 19:13:46 well, i used to hang around here under various nicknames, none of which shall be mentioned here 19:13:51 that one got reasonably popular for a bit 19:14:02 underload is pretty cool 19:14:07 yep 19:14:12 fxkr: Can I try and guess? 19:14:18 -!- timotiis has joined. 19:14:26 guess what? 19:14:31 your nick 19:14:49 tusho: I suspect fxkr stopped coming here after you started 19:14:55 ?! 19:14:56 ais523: ouch 19:14:57 :) 19:15:03 s/after/before/ 19:15:05 sorry 19:15:07 not ouch :) 19:15:08 stupid typo 19:15:33 i think i wrote too much crap under those nicks =) 19:15:48 and i think you wont find them (at least i hope so) 19:15:50 ah, I know the nick 19:15:56 quick grep of logs 19:16:09 -!- John___ has joined. 19:16:10 but it's someone I only remember as lurking 19:16:30 -!- John___ has changed nick to memento. 19:16:44 ^^ 19:16:47 now this is fun 19:16:50 -!- memento has changed nick to nmemento. 19:17:18 -!- nmemento has changed nick to twistle. 19:17:31 Anybody know me? 19:17:43 If not, look on the wiki. 19:18:09 hi twistle 19:18:31 hi twistle. i dont know you, but hi :) 19:18:41 ais523: 19:18:41 # (diff) (hist) . . Sean Heber‎; 17:40 . . (+8) . . 84.12.214.3 (Talk) (droncabasb) 19:18:42 # (diff) (hist) . . Category:Self-modifying‎; 16:07 . . (+12) . . 87.234.234.66 (Talk) (sitrelrelle) 19:18:47 plz to be blocking? 19:18:57 twistle: ah, the inventor of tflabtijtslwi? 19:19:17 and hexish? 19:19:25 Yeah. I have a feeling you JUST looked that up 19:19:29 yes, I did 19:19:34 just making sure I got the right person 19:20:26 And you are the inventor of thutu 19:20:34 Isn't that you? 19:20:50 And did you invent DZZZZZ? 19:20:55 Wait, no 19:20:56 twistle: thutu and underload, I believe 19:20:57 and 19:20:59 tons of others 19:21:12 http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ais523 <-- this many, it seems 19:21:12 I'ma look at the wiki 19:21:23 lol 19:21:24 e also maintains C-INTERCAL, you might have seen the name there 19:27:59 -!- timotiis_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:29:00 I like BackFlip and ABCDXYZ 19:29:26 -!- ais523_ has joined. 19:30:13 wb ais523_...? 19:30:18 hi 19:30:24 hm... my nick's changed 19:30:32 ais523_: ais523 is still here 19:30:35 but you rejoined as ais523_ 19:30:37 yes, I know 19:30:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 19:30:44 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 19:30:55 * ais523 keeps sending ghost commands to ChanServ by mistake... 19:31:14 I like Black too 19:31:25 thanks 19:32:22 But my favorite esoteric language is probably Zetaplex 19:32:29 What's yours? 19:32:35 i don't really have a favourite esolang 19:33:05 it's nice be able to do lots of different things with esolangs 19:33:18 ais523: that's just given me an idea 19:33:20 liiiiike 19:33:23 similar to your mashup languages like iffi and stuff 19:33:39 tusho: what is it? 19:33:45 I had an idea for a grand esoteric language FFI once 19:33:54 which expressed relationships between programs with ASCII art 19:33:55 ais523: an esolang to bind multiple esolangs together 19:34:00 (Including different instances of itself if you want.) 19:34:09 and I'm thinking of splitting ick-ec off into its own core 19:34:20 with compilers and interps for various langs as plugins 19:34:41 ais523: hmm, mine is similar except i don't think it'll require language changes 19:34:44 i think you can use existing interps 19:35:12 What y'all talkin' bout? 19:35:29 twistle: Shrug 19:35:30 :P 19:36:36 ais523, what's your favorite esolang? 19:36:54 well, I don't play favourites all that much, I've put the most time into INTERCAL but it isn't a typical esolang 19:38:01 ah, INTERCAL 19:38:12 I maintain C-INTERCAL at the moment 19:38:29 ESR abandoned it more or less, probably because he was busy with other things 19:38:31 how long have you maintained it, btw ais523? 19:38:36 tusho: not sure, I can check 19:38:37 INTERCAL, BF and Malbolge deserve a trophy 19:38:43 twistle: and Befunge 19:38:50 twistle: add befunge and unlambda 19:38:51 and yes 19:39:02 INTERCAL, Brainfuck, Malbolge, Befunge, Unlambda 19:39:06 I LOVE UNLAMBDA! 19:39:14 the prime examples of paradigm-extremes 19:39:20 tusho: 2 years and almost a month 19:39:31 ais523: OK 19:39:38 well, Underload's a paradigm-extreme too, that's probably why it caught on 19:39:42 and OISC is too 19:39:51 ais523: yes, but those are the biggies 19:39:53 I like OISC 19:40:03 Actually, I change my mind 19:40:04 underload builds on unlambda quite a bit, really 19:40:14 tusho: yep 19:40:18 zetaplex isn't my favorite language. 19:40:28 LAZY K IS! 19:40:32 lazy k is fun 19:40:57 -!- djgera has joined. 19:41:06 Yes, lazy k is more "pure" 19:41:30 I didn't like the idea of side-effects 19:42:52 ais523: Is underload REALLY a paradigm extreme? 19:43:04 twistle: you can't get much more concatenative than Underload 19:43:28 is underload minimal in operators? 19:43:35 pretty much 19:43:39 you can combine some like in BF 19:43:44 ah 19:43:45 but not remove any without modifying some 19:43:49 but can you *drop* some? 19:43:51 okay 19:44:07 you can 19:44:09 you can drop (...) 19:44:13 with the power of DEI 19:44:18 tusho: you added a new operator 19:44:20 (you need an un-S though) 19:44:21 to replace (...) 19:44:26 so that's cheating 19:44:26 ais523: yes 19:44:30 but (...) is conceptually 'heavy' 19:44:36 dei isn't so much 19:44:41 I think dei's a lot heavier than (...) 19:45:10 ais523: you sure about this as in "no set of operators can emulate the dropped operator", or that you actually know no subset is tc? 19:45:37 oklopol: I'm reasonably sure but haven't proved it 19:45:47 well, you can drop S because that's just output 19:45:50 Hey, has anybody seen my language MSG? Standing for MonoSodium Glutamate? 19:45:55 twistle: I don't think so 19:45:55 ais523: it's certainly easier to parse 19:45:58 It's on the wiki 19:46:04 a local chinese restaurant has it on the tables. 19:46:15 salt, pepper and MSG. 19:46:16 that looks cool twistle 19:46:27 it's like smalltalk 19:46:28 and feather 19:46:32 without the time travel part 19:46:34 and io 19:46:42 twistle: however 19:46:45 your syntax is ambiguous 19:46:45 Yeah, I like smalltalk 19:46:55 main 'passon stdout 'Hello, world!' ' 19:46:56 you need (...) instead 19:46:57 or the intercal method 19:47:00 (alternate " and ') 19:47:05 but (...) or [...] is saner 19:47:10 main [passon stdout [Hello, world!]] 19:47:25 oooh pretty! 19:47:39 That IS less ambiguous. 19:48:42 main (passon stdout (Hello, world!)) 19:48:48 i prefer the ambiguous way 19:48:50 yayus! 19:49:21 twistle: hmm 19:49:23 I prefer [] 19:49:29 otherwise yours just looks like lisp 19:49:29 :) 19:49:41 twistle: say, can you write a longer program 19:49:42 just on the spot? 19:49:48 not too long 19:49:49 just longer than that 19:50:18 have "..." on toplevel, '...' inside the "...", and prevent further nesting 19:50:18 like... 19:50:43 oklopol: in INTERCAL you can just alternate '' and "" from level to level, that's unambiguous 19:51:07 twistle: i dunno 19:51:09 how about cat 19:51:13 (copies input to output) 19:51:20 I know what cat is 19:51:23 ais523: 1. i know 2. that's obvious 19:53:56 twistle: :3? 19:54:36 main 'passon stdout ' 19:55:00 main 'passon engineer 'exit' ' 19:55:20 twistle: Bah. I was hoping for something with more nesting. 19:56:26 Ooh, nesting! 19:56:37 What would require nesting... 19:57:01 everything 19:57:08 twistle: Just a heavily-nested expression. 19:57:12 That program didn't! 19:57:13 So I can toy around with different syntaxes. 19:57:40 twistle: i'm sure it did 19:58:19 A slightly more complex hello world: 19:59:25 main 'passon main 'create hiya' ' 19:59:27 twistle: do something like fibonacci, or even factorial 19:59:40 twistle: go on 19:59:50 -!- djgera has quit. 20:00:11 hiya 'passon main 'hello world' ' 20:00:20 That's the same level of nesting, twistle. 20:00:28 ICFP contest just finished, by the way 20:00:31 I agree with oklopol, do factorial 20:00:58 main 'passon stdout ' 20:01:02 EOF 20:01:40 MSG is just a concept, so to do factorial, I need some arithmetic operators 20:01:45 anyway, for esoteric purposes, i like the idea of not letting you have arbitrary nesting 20:01:48 A math object! 20:02:01 passon is a strange word 20:02:28 it looks french 20:02:51 twistle: a math object? 20:02:52 ugh 20:02:54 just make integers obejcts 20:02:56 *objects 20:03:08 1 '+ 2' 20:03:10 see? 20:03:23 lament: passon = pass on 20:03:32 twistle: he got that 20:03:46 twistle: 1 + '3 '+ 2' ' 20:03:51 = 6 20:03:52 It does look french 20:03:58 twistle: sure, but it takes me a while to understand that that's what's meant every time i look at it. 20:04:05 and btw your current syntax is unambiguous if you depend on whitespace 20:04:07 like how I wrote it 20:04:09 and I like it better that way 20:04:32 The syntax in the "Grammar" section of the article is incorrect 20:05:23 It's " 'action... Oh, nevermind. It's time for a syntactic change! 20:05:38 Quite. 20:06:27 The new syntax is: 20:07:00 oklopol: i'm writing a parser for ambiguous quotes! 20:07:01 ''a b' 'c 'd 'e'''' -> ((a b) (c (d (e)))) 20:07:13 '' 20:07:17 it's the solution to lisp's parentheses! 20:07:21 There! 20:07:23 twistle: isn't sender always self? 20:07:31 tusho: well that's basically how nopol works 20:07:34 except a bit different 20:07:43 It's unambiguous! 20:07:49 oklopol: yeah, except yours is just for diff. pos/neg 20:07:53 mine is a whole paren replacement 20:08:10 well i have two chars for two parens, you have one char for one paren 20:08:17 paren as in parenthesis type 20:08:23 tusho: Sender isn't self, because this isn't a declaration! 20:08:29 but the idea is the same, you could probably parse that with my nopol parser 20:08:36 OK twistle 20:09:27 Actually, it's '' 20:10:24 unambigous! 20:10:53 *unambiguous! 20:10:55 you'd think 20:11:04 hmmmm? 20:11:14 well, depends on what the message can be 20:11:26 oklopol: an arbitary string 20:11:27 I think 20:11:40 let's call this '' thing a a coolxpression, can you have multiple coolxpressions in a message? 20:11:48 coolxpression? 20:12:08 What contains is a metalanguage 20:12:25 ais523: want to see the definition again, or what? 20:13:15 sorry, I haven't really been paying attention recently... 20:13:24 let me read the start of your sentence this time 20:13:31 when do the results of icfp come? 20:13:37 coolxpressions don't go into messages. 20:13:49 twistle: o 20:13:56 oklopol: in the ICFP conference in September 20:14:04 although they may release some info before then 20:14:23 The syntax of a message is 20:14:47 Wait, I just realized something 20:15:03 What if each object was interpreter? 20:15:19 You could combine multiple languages into one! 20:16:23 well yeah the issue is whether you actually want to send messages unparsed to each thingie 20:16:28 but i think that'd be awesome 20:17:16 each object HAS to be an interpreter 20:17:33 ya 20:18:56 One object could be called os, like the module in python 20:20:22 This sounds like an interesting discussion. 20:20:51 "The Pursuit of Happyness". I'll be back in a moment. 20:20:55 awesome, I wrote my '-parser in 6 lines of ruby 20:21:03 using regexes 20:21:08 cool 20:21:15 happyness? 20:21:22 oklopol: twistle: http://rafb.net/p/AVfy9w26.txt 20:21:25 behold 20:21:49 Try writing it in malbolge :) 20:22:51 tusho: well you don't actually parse yet, just convert into an easily parsible form 20:23:04 oklopol: converting to s-exprs is basically parsing. 20:23:05 or parseable 20:23:07 since the rest is trivial. 20:23:11 this is the actually interesting part 20:23:15 turning it into a nested structure 20:23:18 sure 20:23:27 its not perfect yet, though: 20:23:27 (define (factorial n) 20:23:28 (if (zero? n) 20:23:28 1 20:23:28 (* n (factorial (- n 1(((() 20:24:52 (define (factorial n) 20:24:52 (if (zero? n) 20:24:52 1 20:24:52 (* n (factorial (- n 1))))) 20:24:53 yay 20:25:58 oklopol: it fails horribly if you don't whitespace it right of course 20:28:20 where does it do " ''''" -> "(((("? 20:28:25 hmm 20:28:38 oklopol: wait 20:28:40 lemme give you the new version 20:28:58 oklopol: http://rafb.net/p/JmKjLL87.txt 20:31:31 what does it say about '''a' b' d' 20:32:06 oklopol: try it? 20:32:17 but 20:32:18 => "(() a) b) d)" 20:32:20 oh 20:32:20 uh 20:32:21 I typed it 20:32:22 wrong 20:32:29 oklopol: 20:32:29 irb(main):002:0> parenize("'''a' b' d'") 20:32:29 => "(((a) b) d)" 20:33:52 say 20:33:53 right, of course 20:33:54 this gives me a crazy idea 20:34:00 does anyone want to hear it? :p 20:34:58 err suuure 20:35:23 twistle: can arithmetic be implemented in this language of yours? 20:35:50 oklopol: you know when you said 20:35:54 {what does it say about '''a' b' d'} 20:36:09 oklopol: ? 20:36:57 oklopol: . 20:37:32 ok, since oklopol has died I'll just explain 20:37:48 what about a pastebin where you can paste a function in $LANGUAGE, and it gives you a pastebin url, and also a form 20:37:55 this form lets you input arguments to the function 20:37:59 and it'll show you the result 20:38:07 so oklopol could have tried it himself, right after taking a look at the code 20:38:13 it'd have to be sandboxed etc but? 20:39:37 functionbin 20:39:45 Hmm, interesting. 20:39:53 oklopol: pretty much 20:40:06 you'd have to specify a few things either on paste or use 20:40:09 that is, the types 20:40:16 huh? 20:40:16 e.g. if you put 2 in the argument box 20:40:20 is that 2 or "2"? 20:40:23 oh 20:40:30 i'd probably get around that with: 20:40:32 2 is 2 the int 20:40:32 i assumed it's the parsing rules of the lang 20:40:35 "2" is "2" the string 20:40:37 oklopol: yeah 20:40:38 BUT 20:40:44 if e.g. it's a string reverser 20:40:49 then you just want to be able to put text in the box 20:40:57 like in this case, you don't want to have to put "" around the string 20:41:06 so at paste-time you could say "we are going to get a string, that's it" 20:41:13 sure 20:42:40 Seems that, in MSG, objects you create never respond to messages, so the only objects that matter are main and engineer, and the only messages that matter are passon and wire. And there apparently isn't a way to repeat an instruction or any such. 20:42:53 Now, a language consisting entirely of flow control would be interesting. 20:43:05 ihope: i think those exist 20:43:09 but yes, definitely 20:43:15 Do they? 20:43:25 well there's that goto thingie 20:43:27 :P 20:43:30 oklopol: does my functionbin thing sound useful? 20:43:35 tusho: sure 20:43:39 if you had made an esolang interp you could just put it there and let people try it out 20:45:07 And we all know that flow control can be implemented entirely using callCC. >:-) 20:45:36 ihope: Feather. :P 20:45:47 tusho: Feather has lambda too 20:46:03 Is lambda a control structure? 20:46:04 I guess so. 20:46:15 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 20:46:25 tusho: well, otherwise there'd be langs with no control structures at all which are still TC, which is clearly impossible 20:46:25 What is Feather? 20:46:33 Hello, poiuy 20:46:33 ihope: a lang idea I'm working on 20:46:43 ais523: True. 20:46:49 Wait, no. 20:46:52 hello twistle 20:46:54 ais523: LC has one control structure - apply 20:47:07 it's a bit like Smalltalk, some of the syntax is inspired by Haskell but it's nothing like it, and it uses time travel to do inheritance 20:47:39 I guess SKI consists entirely of S, K, I and application. Is S, K or I a control structure? 20:48:05 ihope: No. 20:48:11 Apply is the only control structure there. 20:48:43 i'd say s is a control structure 20:48:44 I have a programming language that has only control structures, then. 20:48:50 Unfortunately, there are no valid programs. 20:49:09 ya taht one 20:49:14 Unless `````````````````````... is a valid program. Even if it is, it doesn't do anything. 20:49:36 Thereby proving once again that -1 is infinite. 20:49:37 you can have infinite programs in it? 20:49:46 You can have infinite BF programs. 20:50:11 oh? i thought languages are generally considered to implicitly disallow that 20:50:25 Hey, you can have infinite HQ9+ programs and call it Turing-complete. 20:50:52 ihope: wanna tell me how that -1 = inf got proven there? 20:51:19 hq9+ isn't tc even with infinite programs 20:52:06 if there is an infinite pattern, it needs to be generated with a less-than-tc automaton imo 20:52:17 here you'd have to have calculated the result in order to write the program 20:52:38 but really turing completeness is a matter of opinion 20:53:21 In an "Unlambda-like" language, the number of apply operators must be 1 minus the number of values. In the ``````````````````... language, there are no values, so the number of apply operators must be -1. The infinite ` program is valid, so the number of apply operators it contains must be -1. 20:53:43 Broken logic, indeed, but kind of fun, perhaps. 20:53:55 right, right 21:04:02 -!- pikhq has left (?). 21:22:54 -!- ihope has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.15/2008062306]"). 21:39:04 who likes my parenizer 21:39:42 tusho: which one? 21:40:01 sorry I really am not paying much attention right now 21:40:08 probably I should just go to sleep 21:40:13 and sort things out tomorrow 21:40:19 ais523: http://rafb.net/p/JmKjLL87.txt 21:40:32 converts ambiguous quoting to parenthesized forms 21:40:37 in 6 lines 21:40:46 well, 4 really 21:40:51 yes, seems pretty simple 21:41:04 didn't think it would be that trivial 21:41:05 but it is 21:41:05 that's how you convert INTERCAL quotes to parens when there are no array subscripts involved 21:41:15 ais523: no, intercal has ' and " 21:41:15 so I knew that algorithm before you showed me 21:41:16 this just has ' 21:41:31 tusho: you can write INTERCAL expressions with just ' as long as they're unambiguous 21:41:32 and mine is whitespace sensitive 21:41:38 ais523: whitespace sensitive? 21:41:41 which they are if you have no array subscripts 21:41:48 tusho: sensitive to operand vs. operator which comes to the same thing 21:41:57 not whitespace but something else which serves the same purpose 21:42:08 ais523: anyway, I'm going to describe the algo in plain english just in case you see any major flaws: 21:42:38 ', followed by one or more bits of whitespace, is replaced with ) followed by the whitespace. 21:42:57 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 21:43:12 ', followed by zero or more occurences of ' or a whitespace character, followed by the end of the input, is handled like so: Replace all 's in the matched string with )s. 21:43:18 Every other ' is replaced with a (. 21:43:26 yes, that's about right 21:43:40 ofc you can do it symetrically for error checking but there's no point 21:43:51 ais523: symetrically? 21:44:00 wait, <<'''' >> should become <<)))) >> 21:44:07 where I'm using << >> for quoting 21:44:11 and I meant symmetrically 21:45:06 and, ais523 21:45:10 i don't want to produce invalid output like that 21:45:14 oh, wait 21:45:14 hm 21:45:18 i see 21:45:29 it actually produces => "))))" 21:45:33 because I strip the string at the start 21:45:35 (otherwise it breaks) 21:46:23 well, I mean a situation like <<'a 'b 'c'' d 'e f'' 21:46:26 s/$/>>/ 21:46:29 does your code handle that? 21:47:22 it produces 21:47:23 => "(a (b (c() d (e f))" 21:47:24 so no 21:47:41 the first two rules should be combined 21:47:56 Ah yes, can't I just remove the first rule 21:48:00 into "any number of ' followed by whitespace or end of input become )s followed by the whitespace" 21:48:15 that's not the same 21:48:16 what about 21:48:17 the two first rules you have are different specialisations of that 21:48:19 ''' ''' ''' 21:48:21 for ends 21:48:26 it's /'['\s]*$/ 21:48:33 and the case I gave was the case you didn't cover 21:48:54 ais523: s 21:48:54 o 21:48:55 gsub(/'+(\s+|$)/) {|m| m.gsub("'", ')')}. 21:49:12 tusho: sorry, normally I'd help but I'm too tired to think really right now 21:49:12 irb(main):001:0> parenize("'a 'b 'c'' d 'e f''") 21:49:13 => "(a (b (c)) d (e f))" 21:49:14 seems right 21:49:15 :D 21:49:21 it's now a oneliner 21:49:21 input.strip.gsub(/'+(\s+|$)/) {|m| m.gsub("'", ')')}.gsub("'", '(') 21:50:09 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 21:50:17 -!- Corun has joined. 21:52:04 I just ran SLOCcount on C-INTERCAL for fun 21:52:11 Total Estimated Cost to Develop = $ 301,198 21:52:42 it suggests that it would take 3 programmers working for 8.72 months to reproduce 21:52:50 which implies to me that most programmers aren't very good 21:52:57 they aren't 21:52:59 isn't it amazing you've spent 300k of your spare time on an intercal compiler? :P 21:53:07 olsner: it's not just me 21:53:12 C-INTERCAL's a group effort 21:53:14 * tusho tries to think of substantial software he's written 21:53:15 um.... 21:53:22 I'm not sure how much is mine, actually 21:53:27 hmm, yeah, so... maybe 100k of your time, if you're the main developer? 21:53:31 maybe I should try to find the sources for the version before the one I released 21:53:32 nope, can't come up with anything 21:53:34 and compare 21:53:40 s/the one/the first one/ 21:53:46 but it wasn't all me from then on either 21:54:00 the unreleased version 0.29 is going to credit lots of people, including four from #esoteric 21:54:19 also a computer which I don't know the name of, belonging to Debian 21:54:26 which found a bug in the build process on Itanium 21:55:02 Thank you, anonymous debian computer! 21:55:03 ansic: 8335 (83.86%) 21:55:03 yacc: 1077 (10.84%) 21:55:03 lex: 516 (5.19%) 21:55:03 sh: 11 (0.11%) 21:55:08 a breakdown of the languages used 21:55:23 it missed OIL, unfortunately 21:55:25 ais523: do you know of any substantial software I've written? 21:55:41 579 /home/ais523/esoteric/intercal/latest/src/idiotism.oil 21:55:50 tusho: I don't think so 21:55:54 :) heh 21:55:57 guess I haven't written any 21:56:02 -!- lilja has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:56:06 * tusho toys with running sloccount all over ~/Code 21:56:15 % ls ~/Code|wc -l 21:56:16 581 21:56:31 tusho: what about ls -R ~/Code|wc -l 21:56:35 ais523: just did that 21:56:37 15851 21:56:45 but I think I have a few downloaded pieces of code in here 21:56:46 still 21:56:51 it's notable that most of these files are empty 21:56:53 or near-empty 21:56:54 :) 21:56:55 ls /home/ais523/esoteric/ | wc -l gives 55 21:57:04 but throwing away 0 byte files, sheesh 21:57:06 I could never do that 21:57:13 13004 when I put -R in there 21:57:24 although there's several VCS repos and things I didn't write in that count 21:58:08 ais523: let's put it this way, I've opened up Code and found lines I never recall writing 21:58:20 among tiny, often syntaxly ill-formed files 21:58:26 of unfinished work that will stay as such 21:58:36 well, for instance, I have at least 3 versions of cfunge beneath ~/esoteric in various states of modification 21:58:48 I have ~/Code/esolangs but I don't use it. 21:58:49 :p 21:59:18 $ ls ~ -R | wc -l 21:59:21 this could take a while to run... 21:59:34 ais523: I think I have the Eclipse source somewhere in my home directory 21:59:39 so I'm not so sure that would give a reasonable number 21:59:53 tusho: I have an entire Linux distro somewhere in my home directory, unless I've deleted it since 22:00:02 built from sources via someone else's buggy Makefile 22:00:04 eclipse is bigger I think ais523 22:00:16 eclipse is closer to booting than emacs 22:00:19 probably, but it's a distro I'm talking about not just the kernel 22:00:40 [ehird:~] % ls -R | wc -l 22:00:40 ls: cannot open directory ./Documents/Code/pysandbox/jail: Permission denied 22:00:40 181829 22:01:04 tusho: it's great to have unreadable folders in your home dir 22:01:12 ais523: do I smell sarcasm? 22:01:18 no, I'm not being sarcastic 22:01:24 it's nice to think about the reasons 22:01:33 I think I may have an encryption key that's 000 somewhere 22:01:34 not sure 22:01:37 you can guess what that one was for 22:01:48 no, I didn't have one, and that looks like somewhere to put chroots 22:01:55 378139 anyway 22:01:59 so more than you 22:02:02 despite you having Eclipse 22:02:20 however that counts most of my files about 3 times due to all the backups I take 22:02:27 ais523: I think it was me trying to sandbox python 22:02:35 ah, ok 22:04:46 c,i=STDIN.read.split'!';i||="";i=i.split'';f=[];d=Hash.new 0;p=0;c.size.times{|x|f<<(case c[x];when ?>;"p+=1";when ?<;"p-=1";when ?+;"d[p]+=1";when ?-;"d[p]-=1";when ?[;"while d[p]!=0";when ?];"end";when ?.;"putc d[p]";when ?,;"d[p]=i.delete_at(0)||0";end)};eval f.join("\n") 22:04:47 -!- lilja has joined. 22:04:58 one line bf interpreter, i think for anagolf 22:05:03 STDIN.read = $<.read 22:05:06 I'm not even going to attempt to mentally parse that right now, paste it later when I'm more awake 22:05:10 i evidently was not an export 22:05:12 *expert 22:08:16 ais523: try writing a non-trivial intercal program just now 22:08:22 i bet it'll be amazing and impossible to read the next day 22:08:26 sleep deprivation coding! 22:08:29 :p 22:08:34 I'm not in a mood for non-trivial INTERCAL programs 22:08:41 and besides I don't find INTERCAL that hard to read 22:08:43 only the expressions 22:08:50 and I have a debugger to read them for me 22:08:55 all debuggers should have the e command 22:09:27 I'm not in a mood for non-trivial INTERCAL programs 22:09:30 exactly why i suggested it :p 22:09:58 my guess is that the resulting program would just error out 22:10:33 Presumably you'd fix it, then. :-P 22:10:45 It's like Extreme Programming. 22:10:48 tusho: it's kind-of hard to fix errors in INTERCAL programs 22:10:48 Except it's more like Insane Programming. 22:11:00 J^4's interfunge had a syntax error for years and nobody noticed 22:11:14 I patched that earlier this month and sent him the patch 22:11:24 ais523: I am basing this on the psychological theory "sleep deprivation makes you an awesome monster of amazing" 22:11:28 It is not very well tested. 22:14:16 -!- olsner has quit. 22:16:18 :o 22:16:22 so scary 22:16:42 lilja: wot 22:16:46 you 22:17:07 suddenly writing differently 22:17:21 I got totally confused for a moment 22:18:03 lilja: suddenly writing differently? 22:18:20 usually like this 22:18:27 And then like this. 22:18:46 tusho: lilja's right, you used a capital letter 22:18:52 that's pretty unusual 22:18:59 oh, right 22:18:59 in fact you did it several times in a row 22:19:03 Well, I flick between styles. 22:19:10 I also flick between :p, :P and :-P 22:19:20 :P is the least used nowadays, odd, recently it was the most-used 22:19:20 :-p 22:19:28 fxkr: ugly. 22:19:43 tusho: of course, but it was the missing one 22:19:51 fxkr: but I don't flick to that one 22:19:56 tusho: anyways, that's scary 22:20:02 don't do it :) 22:20:04 lilja: not really 22:20:16 I tend to mold my style to people I'm talking to, or sometimes the opposite 22:20:29 When I start typing like this and using :-P I think that's me imitating ihope. 22:20:32 He uses :-P a lot. 22:20:50 tjaja 22:21:15 tjjaja? 22:21:19 oh, jeez 22:21:23 lilja: you are oklopol 22:21:34 okay, even if it's not scary, it's confusing 22:21:43 if oklopol != hotidlerchick, then at least you are hotidlerchick 22:21:49 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood_. 22:23:30 well, yes, lilja has the same hostname as hotidlerchick 22:23:44 even the bit before the @ sign 22:23:49 ais523: and realname Idler 22:23:49 yeah yeah, I'm hotidlerchick, just felt like using a more... appropriate nick :) 22:23:57 and username ohsohot 22:24:21 anyway, I'm going home 22:24:28 I'm too tired to do anything intelligent, really 22:24:30 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1""). 22:27:10 tusho: would you tell me a story? 22:27:20 lilja: yes 22:27:22 once upon a time 22:27:24 your face 22:27:25 the end 22:27:33 :\ 22:28:28 you are a mean person 22:29:30 lilja: aw okay 22:29:32 once upon a time 22:29:34 there was an irc channel 22:29:38 it was called #esoteric 22:29:39 one day 22:29:41 it died 22:29:43 it went to heaven 22:29:45 where it killed god 22:29:48 and exploded into the clouds 22:29:55 the clouds blossomed into pure psychedelia and began their journey 22:29:57 up onto the plains 22:30:01 where there are goats and trees and cabbage 22:30:08 and only three remaining things were old and everything was is 22:30:14 against, when they went to hell, to deplete 22:30:26 the devil say 'no' but as it blossom more and more as it surplus the place into itself 22:30:35 and it disappears but turns into more psychedelia folding into itself 22:30:39 they went back to the plains 22:30:43 where the goats were unhappy and died 22:30:51 but they blossomed yet again psychedelia and merged with the whole 22:30:54 by now it was a hive 22:30:56 everything became it 22:31:00 it was it 22:31:01 it died 22:31:05 and blossomed into psychedelia 22:31:06 which died 22:31:07 and blossomed into psychedelia 22:31:11 over and over again, forever 22:31:12 until one day 22:31:16 it grew sentience 22:31:19 but each time it died 22:31:23 forgot everything 22:31:24 at one point 22:31:25 it remembers just 22:31:27 just enough 22:31:28 enough 22:31:28 to 22:31:29 to 22:31:40 the psychedelia exploded and there was a new universe. 22:31:57 everything happened again but in a totally different way, and it ended again blossoming into psychedelia, and thus this story repeats forever. 22:31:58 the end. 22:32:16 thanks 22:32:56 :) 22:33:17 lilja: good story? 22:33:24 -!- ihope has joined. 22:33:33 ihope: you missed the story 22:33:49 What story? 22:34:11 i'll paste 22:34:23 http://rafb.net/p/BkGDM926.txt 22:36:51 ihope: do you like it. 22:37:04 It's kind of confusing. 22:37:36 ihope: how so 22:38:13 It's not clear where one sentence ends and another begins, or even if it consists of actual sentences. 22:39:36 ihope: just read it as one long thing 22:39:41 unless there's a clear break 22:39:45 though 22:39:47 pause between lines 22:39:48 for the pacing 22:41:38 tusho: well, it had the orthodox formula, so it can't be all bad 22:42:25 lilja: it had the what. :| 22:42:28 I'd ask what the point of it is. 22:42:43 ihope: lilja asked me to tell a story, besides, what fiction has a true point? A lot of it surely, but not all. 22:43:25 But it's been a while since I've made a blog post. 22:44:25 ihope: You have a blog? 22:44:36 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:44:49 Yep. 22:45:12 Link? 22:45:25 Here's a maybe-inconvenient link to it: http://www.blogger.com/posts.g?blogID=8621589558979843004 22:45:45 And a convenient one: http://ff-rtl.blogspot.com/ 22:45:48 Thoroughly inconvenient; it wants me to sign in :) 22:46:18 :-) 22:46:28 {So, I have a blog. Another blog, in fact. I don't think you'd like the other one, though.} 22:46:33 I DISLIKE ASSUMPTIONS BEING PUSHED ON ME 22:46:41 THEY FEEL PAINFUL AND CRUSHING 22:46:43 OUCH 22:47:57 Want me to edit that post to say "Unless you're ehird."? :-P 22:49:04 ihope: that's still an assumption 22:49:06 :( 22:49:37 tusho: typical formula of traditional fairy tales 22:49:40 Well, don't read that post, then. :-) 22:50:09 lilja: Not really. 22:50:13 It was EXPERIMENTAL. 22:51:29 yet not that different from traditional fairy tales 22:51:40 lilja: But a nice change, no? 22:52:39 hmm 22:52:54 lilja: It was improvised. 22:52:57 No prior thought. 22:52:59 honestly said, I don't really have an opinion about that 22:53:01 Just, wrote a sentence, now I gotta write another one. 22:53:03 Flow. 22:53:45 I rarely hear any other kind when I ask people to tell a story :) 22:54:00 Yes. But mine used short sentences. 22:54:01 So. 22:54:02 Harder. 22:54:06 :D 22:54:10 yeah right 22:54:13 ---> 23:04:54 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:05:25 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:06:00 -!- twistle has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:11:14 -!- fxkr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:15:29 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 23:17:58 -!- Corun has joined. 23:19:59 Ello, CakeProphet. 23:20:40 Corun is denied my hello for having a nick whose length is a Fibonacci number that's also a prime number congruent to 1 modulo 4 and has alternating consonants and vowels. 23:21:27 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:21:29 I hope you don't say hello to yourself, either. 23:21:31 :-) 23:21:49 Hello, me. 23:23:04 :) 23:23:27 Indeed, I'd have to be insane to say hello to myself. And by insane, I mean silly. 23:25:05 i believe both are mandatory on this channel, unless you are an operator, in which case only the first one is 23:26:10 oh, or a girl. 23:33:13 Which, contrary to popular belief, can occur here. 23:34:29 girls need not be insane? 23:40:07 they need not be silly. i guess if you somehow found a girl that was silly but not insane, that would be allowed too 23:41:07 my guess is sukoshi was just that 23:41:08 that may not be possible in this universe, though 23:41:41 i don't recall sukoshi being silly... 23:41:45 not sure how silly she was 23:41:51 yeah, indeed 23:41:58 but definitely not insane enough 23:42:12 perhaps that's why she's stopped visiting :\ 23:42:15 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:45:32 -!- twistle has joined. 23:49:22 All girls are silly. No girl is insane. 23:50:00 :\ 23:51:13 sukoshi is the same person as razor-x? 23:51:19 yes 23:51:44 if i remember correctly, she just talked about anime all the time? 23:52:06 i only saw her talk about esolangs 23:52:11 and, random stuff to pikhq 23:52:28 japanese, anime, c, scheme, esolangs 23:52:33 in japanese, so it may very well have been about anime for all i know :D 23:52:48 heh 23:53:48 oklopol: am I silly or insane? 23:54:02 hmm 23:54:11 i'd say more silly than insane 23:54:15 but definitely both 23:54:20 lilja: we shall see, depending on whether you'll stop visiting or not. 23:54:25 heh 23:56:35 well, at least I'm silly, I'm quite certain about that 23:57:22 i think it's the insanity that keeps one here, silliness is mostly required for interaction 23:57:39 we're not all that insane, you know 23:57:41 just geeky 23:57:49 despite jokes to the contrary 23:58:11 fuck man i'm haf 23:58:16 yeah like those elaborate girlfriend jokes where you fake you have a girl sitting next to you 23:58:32 roll eyes 23:58:42 :) 23:58:43 lament: i didn't say we weren't all on drugs. 23:58:45 I never said that. 23:59:03 speaking of drugs, i need caffeine 23:59:14 i'm drinking my fourth coffee of the day :( 23:59:32 but it's monday... it's fine 2008-07-15: 00:04:08 it's all good 00:08:49 oh, and would I really have to be insane in order to idle here for a long time? 00:09:10 after all, this place has it's charm 00:09:22 since I can't say anything smart here 00:09:56 nobody can say anything smart here 00:09:58 or they will get banned 00:10:13 especially nothing smart-ass 00:10:24 oh 00:10:25 well 00:10:34 lilja: we're all stupid in here. 00:10:34 yeah, could be 00:10:37 lilja has a very smart ass 00:10:42 :\ 00:10:54 :D 00:11:37 in fact we should institute a maximum IQ law. 00:11:51 People with IQ higher than 98 are not allowed in the channel. 00:11:53 lament: of 4 00:11:56 98? shesh 00:11:58 *sheesh 00:11:58 I don't really know if you ever say anything that makes sense, since I hardly understand anything you're saying.. it's rather relaxing 00:11:59 the problem is we would have to be smart to measure that 00:12:07 oerjan: solution - 00:12:09 kickban everyone 00:12:15 lament: do the honours 00:12:18 ah yes! brilliant! 00:12:23 ban *!*@* and /cs #esoteric clean 00:12:24 i actually think i read somewhere that apart from the brain and the spinal cord, the ass is the cleverest thing in the human body 00:12:27 you can unban us after a few minutes. 00:12:29 but come on. 00:12:59 you mean, "Apart from the spinal cord and, sometimes, the brain..." 00:13:05 oklopol: how's so? 00:13:08 lament: it'd get rid of all the idiots in here! 00:13:12 lilja: crap control 00:13:20 ooh 00:13:21 the immune system is pretty smart, i think 00:13:27 your ass doesn't just spout it aroud all the time 00:13:41 eyes are pretty smart, unless you count them as part of the brain 00:13:44 oklopol: mine does 00:14:00 diarrhea is when crap beats your ass in chess 00:14:17 that's - mind boggling 00:14:23 ass boggling, too 00:14:25 oerjan: don't you mean - ass boggling? 00:14:28 hahahhahahaha 00:14:31 :) 00:14:51 we should have a too-obvious-joke policy here 00:14:54 great asses think alike 00:15:04 oklopol: you're required to say them? 00:15:18 Let's all say an obvious joke, then. 00:15:22 An obvious joke. 00:15:35 I don't think I can, my ass is shitting a lot right now. 00:15:36 ihope: actually the obvious joke would've been 00:15:36 Sorry 00:15:39 Your mom is an obvious joke. 00:15:45 That's what SHE said! 00:15:50 lament: haha, that was pretty good. 00:15:51 :\ 00:15:55 "let's start saying obvious jokes then" 00:15:59 -!- RedDak has joined. 00:16:06 you would've doubled tusho's joke 00:16:14 thus making the obvious joke, considering what i just said 00:16:20 ok. 00:16:41 PLEASE SAY AN OBVIOUS JOKE 00:16:50 * tusho craps 00:16:57 AN OBVIOUS JOKE. 00:17:14 we're good at this. 00:17:30 lament: yeah. 00:17:40 Holy crap, a talking lament. 00:17:53 totally lamentable 00:17:59 sorry, i'll shut up 00:18:10 I not know what is a shut up. Do not call me a shut up. 00:18:57 i don't get it 00:19:36 lament: please ban *!*@*? 00:19:54 unsafePerformBan *!*@* 00:20:05 lament: in IRC, not haskell 00:20:14 * ihope sets mode #esoteric: +b *!*@* 00:20:21 that's what she did 00:20:22 * lament bans *!*@* 00:20:23 ihope: Not in /me. 00:20:29 Not in /me. In /ban. 00:20:47 * ihope sets mode #esoteric: +b *!*@* 00:21:02 That was not in /me, but it was not in /ban, either. Whatever it was. 00:21:17 That was in /me, ihope 00:21:24 Or rather, in \1ACTION\1 00:21:36 \1ACTION\1 isn't /me. :-P 00:22:11 -!- lament has set topic: fuck man i'm haf fah m'i nam kcuf | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | *!*@* is banned. If you're banned, please leave the channel.. 00:22:16 It's what /me generates. 00:22:20 lament: type /ban *!*@* 00:22:22 and hit enter 00:22:25 note: not //ban *!*@* 00:22:28 but /ban *!*@* 00:22:43 done 00:22:49 [ERROR] You need to be an operator in #esoteric to do that. 00:22:55 lament: ok, instead 00:23:00 type /msg ChanServ op #esoteric 00:23:01 hit enter 00:23:04 type /ban *!*@* 00:23:06 hit enter 00:23:10 type /deop lament 00:23:10 hit enter 00:23:21 this is getting too complicated 00:23:33 you can't honestly expect me to follow all that 00:23:35 Is "MODE #esoteric :+b *!*@*" the correct syntax? 00:23:38 i'd get lost halfway 00:23:41 lament: good point, let me make it simpler 00:23:48 lament: ok 00:23:55 type /msg ChanServ ban #esoteric *!*@* 00:23:57 hit enter 00:23:58 that's it 00:24:27 lament: done that? 00:24:33 Yes. 00:24:37 at least the insanity quotient is coming along splendidly 00:24:38 ok, no more requests. :) 00:24:44 lament: how did you do that 00:24:47 we are still talking. 00:25:02 tusho: because it's not a valid chanserv command and never has been. 00:25:11 oh, true 00:25:16 details, i know. 00:25:24 lament: okay, can I give you one more, super easy request. 00:25:27 I'll make it all short 00:25:38 thn ... means 'type this: ... then hit enter' 00:25:40 o 00:25:42 thn /cs op #esoteric 00:25:45 thn /ban *!*@* 00:25:46 that's it 00:26:21 lament: simple enough? 00:26:24 what's "thn" how do you expect him to remember that? 00:26:43 oklopol: thn means 'type the following then enter' 00:26:50 Done. No more requests. 00:26:58 lament: .. How come? 00:27:06 :) 00:27:13 lament: What happened. 00:27:17 :) 00:27:43 :( 00:27:46 tusho: Why do you expect /cs to do anything? 00:27:52 from(ChanServ) You are not authorized to perform this operation. 00:27:59 lament: I know your client supports it. 00:28:01 kulkuset, kulkuset, kilvan helkkäilee 00:28:15 -!- Irssi: Unknown command: cs 00:28:33 You know wrong. 00:28:37 it should start an irc based counter strike 00:29:24 lament: can I give you one more request? 00:29:28 just pipe graphics through /privmsg's 00:29:28 No. 00:29:32 why not :( 00:30:36 because you're an antisocial freak who wants to ban everybody 00:31:17 besides, the topic already says everybody is banned. 00:31:30 tusho: I'll do something you want me to do! 00:31:45 i only wanna ban everyone for a second, lament 00:31:45 :( 00:32:00 Join #everyoneisbanned! 00:32:45 heh 00:32:59 Gasp! 00:33:20 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:34:20 N is fun 00:34:59 oklopol: miksi helkkili? 00:35:08 tuntui siltä 00:35:10 ihope: nobody can join it 00:35:15 tusho: did you try? 00:35:20 Yes. 00:35:20 ehkä se oli tämä hulluusteema, joka sai haluni kohoamaan 00:35:25 ihope: you can't join a room you're banned from. 00:35:33 Oh. 00:35:46 Try now. 00:36:03 no 00:36:04 :P 00:36:09 mutta siinhn voisi olla jrke! 00:36:15 You tried it again and it didn't work? 00:36:32 Oh, silly me. Try again. 00:36:37 -!- twistle has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:37:02 I unbanned ehird instead of tusho. 00:37:43 ihope: Are you good at N 00:37:56 What is N? 00:38:20 yksi kaksi kolme! 00:38:30 Germanic! 00:38:33 vittu koskenkorvaa pilluun 00:38:37 http://www.addictinggames.com/ngame.html 00:38:39 :\ 00:38:42 :\ 00:38:53 -!- twistle has joined. 00:38:57 go ski into a cunt! 00:39:00 Finno-Ugric! 00:39:00 lilja: don't worry, no one active is finnish 00:39:01 :\ 00:39:11 kyll sin taidat olla oudompi... 00:39:12 so no one can get offended 00:39:17 i'm offended 00:39:29 at least i know what vittu means 00:39:37 damn 00:39:46 the one fucking op on the whole chan! 00:39:46 jos se olisikin vittukoskenkorvaa? 00:39:55 vitunkorvaa 00:39:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_profanity 00:40:03 :\ 00:40:20 mikhn se on? 00:40:21 damn, that almost translates all of my sentence 00:40:27 yep 00:40:32 vitunkorva is the ear of the vagina 00:40:37 you should know 00:40:45 the what of the what? 00:41:00 ear is the thingie you hear through 00:41:00 hei hei! 00:41:04 min tiedn! 00:41:25 lilja: i doubt the finnish is as fun to the others as it is for us :P 00:41:33 * oklopol is scared of lament 00:41:47 lament: did you catch my other dream about you? 00:41:53 no 00:41:53 klitoriksen luona on se sellainen tosi etisesti korvaa muistuttava juttu, se sen tytyy olla 00:41:55 what happened? 00:42:12 lament: well basically 00:42:14 i shot this guy 00:42:18 and got really scared 00:42:26 you were on the cover of an energy drink 00:42:29 * oerjan points out that klitoris is an international word 00:42:30 half picture, half alive 00:42:31 oklopol: you started it :( 00:43:09 and i kinda wanted you to tell me it's okay or something 00:43:15 but you'd turned away 00:43:22 needless to say, i was devastated 00:44:07 awful 00:44:25 lmao 00:44:26 also, vittu _has_ to be related to the corresponding norwegian word. finnish doesn't have f does it? 00:44:32 it does 00:44:39 but f->v is common 00:45:22 oklopol: ep1lvl1 00:45:22 on n 00:45:23 halp 00:45:33 -!- twistle has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:45:52 wait 00:45:56 tusho's keyboard has defected on him 00:46:00 err can you link? i don't wanna ggl 00:46:11 oh wait 00:46:19 that actually _did_ make sense 00:46:34 episode 11 lvl 1 on the ninja game n, help 00:46:39 *episode 1 00:46:39 no 00:46:40 episode 1 00:46:43 level 1 00:46:47 err 00:46:47 yeah, typero 00:46:48 level 4 00:46:51 oklopol: it's "steps" 00:47:01 humm? 00:47:24 if "korva" means ear, what does "kosken" mean? 00:48:18 Easks? 00:48:31 o_O 00:49:17 koski is like, rapids 00:49:50 or rapid, dunno what the basic form is 00:50:05 and kosken is the genetive 00:50:55 ear of rapid? er... 00:51:27 yeah, literally speaking, it means that 00:51:29 :D 00:52:15 EAR OF RAPID 00:52:19 oerjan: you're an ear of rapid 00:52:22 but i think it's something like a whirlpool 00:52:26 ah, wikipedia has something to say 00:52:26 not that i have any idea 00:52:31 Koskenkorva is a small village - that belongs to municipality of Ilmajoki - in Finland that translates as "(area) by the rapids". The folk etymology "rapid's ear" is based on the fact that korva also means "ear". 00:52:44 oh, right 00:52:46 makes more sense 00:53:09 has to do with the form of the rapids, not the actual water flow 00:53:19 oerjan: you're an ear of a small village!!!!! 00:53:28 koskenkorvankorva 00:53:41 tusho: what? 00:53:58 just insulting you. 00:54:20 i see how you get ear from "oer" but not how you get a small village from "jan" :D 00:54:29 jan=town 00:54:38 clearly 00:54:45 Earton. 00:56:10 now, it _could_ be interpreted as "Jan with the ear(s)" 00:56:52 -!- tusho has set topic: Jan with the ear. Tunes dot org / ~nef / logs / esoteric.. 00:57:31 yay, i'm in the topic! 00:58:06 -!- oklopol has set topic: Jan with the ear. Tunes dot org / ~nef / logs / esoteric. Also oklopol is now in the topic, come and see.. 01:01:50 brb 01:01:52 er 01:01:54 I mean 01:01:55 bye 01:02:01 -!- tusho has quit. 01:04:12 he left, never to return 01:05:01 so oerjan, how's it going? 01:05:10 tell me one personal detail, right here, on the channel 01:05:23 i'm eating 01:05:47 holy shit 01:05:49 ? 01:05:51 bread with cod caviar 01:06:01 ah 01:06:05 now i will move on to the strawberry jam 01:06:14 go on, go on 01:06:35 then i shall delight on mackerel in tomato sauce 01:06:57 and finally a liver pat 01:13:10 :( 01:13:13 I'm hungry 01:38:16 Ooh, personal detail. 01:38:32 god i'm horny 01:38:35 My full name, including my middle name, contains an even number of letters. 01:38:55 I'm pretty sure, at least. 01:39:00 ooh, you have a middle name? 01:39:10 * oerjan doesn't 01:39:18 It's possible that my middle name contains one more letter than I think it does, but I don't think so. 01:40:44 i had sort of assumed you were able to spell your own name, here 01:42:46 I'd probably get the spelling right, but there's still a significant chance I wouldn't. 01:44:17 -!- kwertii has joined. 01:44:28 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:45:39 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 02:45:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:57:58 -!- Dewi has joined. 02:58:24 -!- atsampso1 has joined. 03:03:44 -!- atsampson has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:51:26 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 04:19:21 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 05:20:16 name the game, brother... I can't say but I know another way, brother. We ain't playin' we just sayin' that it's a dang shame, that you didn't take the blue pill, I hear you bitch but it means nill - I watch you kill the time like ya out of ya mind like the silver platter don't matter - ain't enough, ain't nothing to you. 05:21:59 yes 05:22:09 that's *exactly* what your mom said last night 05:54:55 -!- lilja has quit ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'"). 06:15:35 -!- kwertii has quit ("bye"). 06:19:44 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombgirl. 06:32:04 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 06:32:38 -!- bsmntbombgirl has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 07:16:01 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:46:57 -!- RedDak has joined. 10:05:07 -!- lilja has joined. 10:37:56 -!- lilja has quit ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'"). 10:38:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Remote closed the previous member app"). 10:39:26 -!- olsner has joined. 12:13:27 -!- Corun has joined. 12:50:23 -!- olsner has quit. 12:51:17 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:42:10 -!- RedDak has joined. 14:02:53 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:13:07 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:18:53 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:47:13 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 14:53:16 -!- Corun has joined. 14:58:08 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:04:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 15:19:44 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:49:54 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 15:50:58 -!- Corun has joined. 16:18:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:23:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:27:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:32:59 -!- tusho has joined. 16:33:32 hi ais523 16:33:36 hi tusho 16:33:54 I WON 16:33:56 er 16:33:58 i won 16:34:00 trivially 16:34:02 lol capslock 16:35:27 yes, I wasn't watching IRC at the time 16:35:30 but instead reading my email 16:36:57 my desk appears to have come loose 16:36:59 jaggling around as i type 16:46:14 -!- olsner has joined. 16:46:26 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:50:18 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 16:52:14 -!- olsner has quit. 17:08:58 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 17:13:21 Hello 17:13:27 hello 17:13:45 phew :P 17:13:56 Hiato: worrying whether your connection was working? 17:14:18 nope, I was worrying whether or not anyone was alive here 17:14:20 ;) 17:15:19 alright, this is a two parter 17:15:32 for those interested (or alive, or whose name is ais523) 17:15:37 http://www.mediafire.com/upload_complete.php?id=gxbfcxsyg2r 17:15:51 that is part one, I need to know where I have gone wrong so I can move to part two :P 17:15:53 it's a spec 17:16:30 Hiato: a two parter spec? 17:16:33 what is it, a word document? 17:16:37 ASCII. Do you speak it? 17:16:43 tusho, yes, I know you'll kill me 17:16:52 and no, a one parter spec 17:16:53 Rule 1. Your spec does not need to be in Word format. 17:16:55 -!- olsner has joined. 17:16:55 but a two parter process 17:17:03 Rule 2. Your spec will probably do fine as regular text. Use Notepad. 17:17:25 Rule 3. A Word spec on mediafire. Aah. 17:17:25 I realise, but it has nice formatting and OO seems to explode when saving as rtf or otherwise 17:18:02 so, the process to get you to read it is? 17:18:07 copy it into text? 17:18:20 Hiato: yes 17:18:25 then put it on a pastebin like pastebin.ca 17:18:29 ;) 17:18:37 9 pages, but ok 17:18:38 :P 17:28:00 http://rafb.net/p/LB8PDV38.txt 17:28:05 alright, there we are :) 17:29:22 ps, this applies to both ais523 and tusho, seeing as most likely ais523 agreed to tusho's hatred of all things ms 17:29:33 no he doesn't 17:29:38 he develops c-intercal on windows 17:29:46 well 17:29:47 not always 17:29:48 but he dose 17:29:49 *does 17:29:51 he's said 17:30:40 Hiato: I don't necessarily hate all things MS, but Word format is really hard for many people to read seeing as it requires either a massive converter (OpenOffice.org, which isn't perfect) or a program that costs lots of monet 17:30:43 s/monet/money/ 17:31:00 I do dislike many things MS, because I think they're going about things the wrong way 17:31:15 but I do put in effort to get C-INTERCAL working on Windows 17:32:57 ps: I tend to agree, it wasn't meant as an insult :) 17:33:17 blarg, curse the unemotional text based forms of communication 17:34:25 Hiato: he wasn't retorting it as an insult 17:34:27 just offering information 17:34:31 double misunderstanding! 17:36:15 aah, then all is well 17:37:20 some formatting mistakes corrected for the nitpicky http://rafb.net/p/6cEjVr14.txt 17:38:40 last formatting mistake corrected, saved as plain text as opposed to C++ :P http://rafb.net/p/6xzcyI52.txt 17:40:06 (and yeah, it's as of yet unnamed) 17:42:30 -!- tusho_ has joined. 17:50:04 My connection is rusty. 17:50:06 Am I still here? 17:50:23 ais523: 17:50:29 yes 17:50:31 you are 17:50:53 tusho_: pong 17:51:15 yay 17:54:57 any ideas on the spec? 17:57:47 Not sure, but it looks good. 17:57:55 I'm doing something else right now, it looked vaguely interesting though 17:58:22 -!- tusho has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:58:35 bye tusho... 17:58:43 yay, no fatal flaws then :) 17:58:48 strange quit message too 17:58:58 ais523: BWAHAHAHAHAA 17:58:59 it's like a netsplit with only one server 17:59:01 I AM A GHOST 17:59:02 I AM HAUNTING YOU 17:59:05 LOOK BEHIND YOU 17:59:09 no, actually tusho was the ghost 17:59:12 you're the real user 17:59:17 I'M THE GHOST'S GHOST, AIS523 17:59:29 STOP SHOUTING 17:59:50 (presumably the bold on that won't have come through due to the channel mode) 18:02:15 ais523: NO 18:07:23 ais523: have you seen that link to the message which originated the IMG tag? 18:07:33 no 18:07:40 with a discussion right next to it with Guido van Rossum of python fame arguing with someone about xmosaic 18:07:47 ais523: http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0182.html 18:07:52 proposed new tag: IMG 18:07:59 http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0184.html guido 18:08:06 ais523: and finally: 18:08:09 http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0189.html 18:08:15 {I seem to remember something about a patch to httpd to allow mapping 18:08:15 onto a command, rather than a file, but I can't remember where. Am I 18:08:15 hallucinating, or can someone let me know where this thing is?} 18:08:16 :-) 18:12:45 I'm almost certain that I was using the web in 1995, with pictures, reading about Y2K 18:12:53 Unless my memory is bad? 18:13:00 Sgeo: that discussion's from 1993, despite the subdomain 18:13:34 And from 1993 we got to 1995 a widely used web with IMG standardised? 18:13:34 * tusho_ got his first computer at 3 and a net connection at 4. 18:13:46 Sgeo: There wasn't much formal process then. 18:13:51 The guy just added it to the xmosaic code. 18:13:59 And all 5 users added to their pages. 18:14:19 But the net _did_ explode soon after mosaic came along. 18:14:20 So. 18:14:23 Er 18:14:24 Web 18:15:28 * Sgeo can't remember when he first used the web 18:15:38 Other than a possibly false memory from 1995 18:15:46 I adapted this name in 2001, I think 18:16:38 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:54:57 ais523: do you think my ambig-quotes might be a good basis for an esolang? 18:55:17 a lang requiring tons of nesting but with ambig-quotes as the only means 18:55:45 maybe 18:58:41 ambig-quotes? 19:01:04 Sgeo: parens with just one symbol 19:01:10 'a 'b'' -> (a (b)) 19:01:24 '''a' b' ''c' ''d''' e' 19:01:25 -> 19:01:35 (((a) b) ((c) ((d))) e) 19:01:43 whitespace sensitive of course 19:20:33 So then it isn't with one symbol D: 19:22:30 Slereah2: Yes it is. 19:22:37 It just happens to be in tune with the innate nature of whitespace. 19:31:25 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:37:36 -!- olsner has quit. 19:38:50 -!- olsner has joined. 19:45:41 Huh. 19:45:49 I have some code in a weird languge on my HD 19:45:54 oh no? 19:45:56 It's like a blend of C, Limbo, and Pascal. 19:46:02 Pretty sure I wrote it. :p 19:46:10 Pretty sure it's my language, too. 19:46:16 Don't think I ever wrote an implementation, either :| 19:46:25 was it like a fuck man i haf situation? 19:46:52 no, I don't think so 19:47:02 *i'm 19:47:29 it has some odd control structures 19:47:31 foreach is called 'iter' 19:47:50 seems I translated some SDL code into it too 19:48:10 maybe it's Ruby. 19:48:26 lament: how is ruby a blend of c, limbo and pascal? 19:48:29 which calls foreach 'iter'? 19:57:55 hmm 19:57:55 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Qq 19:57:56 tbh i don't think the name is all that important 19:57:59 that is pretty weird 19:58:17 qq, double queue, like a deque 19:58:20 Munges the quoted program argument with itself. 19:58:23 wtf does that mean 19:58:29 ais523? I think you helped me with that lang 19:58:40 i have no idea why i shared that random association. 19:58:47 but whaeva, i do what i want 19:58:47 # (arity 1+) The first argument must be an integer. An integer is returned, which when called as a command, is like calling the first argument with the arguments of the rest of the arguments to this command plus the arguments passed to the returned command. (...Of course!) 19:58:49 o_______o 19:58:50 tusho_: did I? I've never seen it before 19:59:00 ais523: -shrug- it's weird, either way 20:00:28 ais523: pretty sure you DID help 20:13:26 Ah, Xah Lee. 20:13:30 How your rants inspire laughter. 20:16:46 Good lord. 20:16:51 If[#1==0, 1, #1 #0[#1-1]]& 20:16:57 That's a factorial in Mathematica. 20:17:51 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:18:35 quite readable 20:18:55 i understood that instantly without knowing the language 20:19:16 except i have no idea what the & is. 20:19:24 oklopol: it denotes a magical function 20:19:28 that gets #N as its Nth argument 20:19:29 but the magic bit? 20:19:32 #0 is the function itself. 20:19:34 aiee! 20:19:40 well yeah, obviously 20:19:46 oklopol: that's pretty insane, though 20:19:55 well c does that too 20:19:55 tusho_: you can do the same in shellscript 20:20:07 ais523: but these can be anonymous 20:20:10 oklopol: only in arguments to main, giving you the name of the executable 20:20:15 yeah not the asme 20:20:18 yeah, but sae concept. 20:20:19 this works for unnamed function 20:20:19 tusho_: in a shellscript $0 is the name of the script itself 20:20:19 *same 20:20:19 s 20:20:27 ais523: doesn't work for unnamed functions 20:20:38 #0& <-- a function that returns itself 20:20:47 tusho_: it works whatever the name of the script, and unnamed functions have names really, pretty much, you just don't see them 20:20:54 anyway, quite a pretty syntax, perhaps i should learn mathematica 20:21:22 okokokokokokokoko 20:21:31 oklopol: it isn't a pretty syntax once you start using it, it badly needs to be reverse-polish or something because you get huge messes with lots of nested square brackets where you can't match a function to its arguments easily 20:21:33 hah, more xah lee rant 20:21:36 excellent 20:21:49 ais523: i see 20:21:52 "I consider arc a asshole creation, and Scheme with its people and r6rs motherfucking assholes." 20:22:01 I consider them to be motherfucking assholes, verily, indeed. 20:22:07 Would you like a cup of tea old bean? 20:24:34 Hmm. 20:24:40 UNIX pipes are kind of concatenative, right? 20:24:44 a | b | c -> a b c 20:24:50 I suppose so 20:25:05 in a concatenative lang all commands are functions from input to output mapping stacks to stacks 20:25:12 no 20:25:12 but UNIX pipes send streams rather than stacks 20:25:20 that's where the analogy fails 20:25:24 concatenative just requires forall programs a, b. ab == a.b 20:25:37 err 20:25:38 b.a 20:25:43 in this case, a|b=b.a 20:25:49 a b c cat | xyz grep | sort | uniqe *g* 20:25:52 well, I suppose so, but that's just a property, the paradigm is IMO more restrictive 20:25:52 *uniq 20:26:02 ais523: that's pretty much the definition of a concat lang 20:26:31 tusho_: well, I spent a while yesterday arguing that Forth wasn't "properly concatenative" because it didn't have a concatenative-lang-like flow structure 20:26:46 Forth's pretty much imperative in terms of program flow, despite being stack-based 20:26:47 concatenative?(L) = forall programs(L) => P, Q. concatenate(P,Q) = compose(P,Q). 20:27:01 and what you're saying is that forth isn't idiomatically concatenative 20:27:02 which is true 20:27:05 yes 20:27:08 but it's still a concatenative paradigm language 20:27:20 er, concatenative?(L) = forall programs(L) => P, Q. concatenate(P,Q) = compose(Q,P). 20:27:20 I treat "concatenative" as meaning more the idiom than the mathematical property 20:27:21 always mix that up 20:27:28 ais523: that's not how most people refer to it as 20:27:31 ah, ok 20:27:40 maybe I need a new word for my way of thinking 20:28:36 ais523: idiomaticity 20:28:47 mm, that's a nice word. 20:28:50 idiomaticity 20:31:20 ais523: thoughts on concatenative languages- 20:31:25 -!- Hiato has joined. 20:31:29 it's a good idea, because it's reduces nesting a lot 20:31:34 which is a problem with reading programs 20:31:36 the problem is ... 20:31:44 having the arguments in 'reverse' just isn't that nice 20:31:47 you end up reading it backwards 20:31:51 tusho_: especially Mathematica, that drove me to concat langs more or less after being forced to use it for a month or so 20:31:57 eyes shoot forward to the word, then shoot back 20:31:59 it's not natural 20:32:06 there must be a way to blend them satisfactorally 20:33:04 ais523: thoughts on how to blend them? 20:33:40 I find concatenative pretty natural, first you calculate the args and then you do something with them 20:33:55 ais523: yes, but 20:33:57 I tend to try to read langs in evaluation order (or for langs like Haskell, pseudo-evaluation order) 20:34:01 "Hello, " "world!" ++ print 20:34:11 Your eyes skip ahead to ++, and you read the two arguments. 20:34:13 Then you read 'print'. 20:34:22 So it's not like an applicative language, but it still has skipping forwards with your eyes 20:34:22 for concatenative langs that's left to right continuously, what could be simpler? 20:34:28 which is unnatural and distracting 20:34:36 I am uncertain of the solution 20:34:53 I'm not the only person like this, by the way, someone on proggit mentioned how they read functional langs right to left for this reason 20:35:22 i read stack-based shit left to right, usualy 20:35:23 *usually 20:35:37 i also read functional shit left to right, usually 20:35:46 oklopol: the point is that if you have a lot of string mangling, say 20:35:57 oklopol: well, I read Befunge in IP direction, which isn't always left to right 20:35:57 -!- RedDak has joined. 20:35:57 then your eyes will skip ahead to "what are we doing with these two piecesof data?" 20:36:11 ais523: well yeah, sure 20:36:14 tusho_: ah, you want to know how data's used before looking at how it's generated? 20:36:27 i can do it either way 20:36:32 I suppose for langs like Perl where a function's data type affects the evaluation of its arguments, that's necessary 20:36:35 ais523: when you have a lot of operations at once, yes 20:36:39 it's kind of an urge 20:36:41 but most lang the types of the argument affect the function 20:36:53 i'm not satisfied with seeing you build up data, then bam, oh, that's what we're doing with them 20:37:06 i'd like to hear "we're going to concatenate some stuff together" first 20:37:10 so I know wtf I'm reading 20:37:58 ais523: for example 20:38:01 tusho_: many Underload programs I see and/or write don't use the data immediately after calculating, they just let it sit on the stack for a while 20:38:01 if we go purely concatenative 20:38:05 then a function starts with a load of code 20:38:08 and then, only then 20:38:09 in fact how it's used may depend on calculations done later 20:38:11 I know what it's going to be caled 20:38:18 so only then will I get a rough, one-word idea of what it'll do 20:38:29 and it's only at the _very end_ when I even know we're defining a function! 20:39:59 hmm... XML has an interesting solution to this problem 20:40:04 because tags are labeled at both ends 20:40:22 -!- timotiis has joined. 20:40:30 ais523: impractical, though 20:40:36 not nice for coding, certainly 20:40:38 even for reading 20:40:46 "Define function! Stuff! Stop define function!" 20:40:54 Besides, with that, you have a fixed argument list. 20:40:54 tusho_: actually VHDL does that 20:40:57 == it's not really concatenative. 20:41:08 tusho_: yes, I know XML isn't concatenative 20:41:12 nor is VHDL for that matter 20:41:14 i want a tc language that has absolutely no modularity, so that you have to have it all in your head before you know what it does 20:41:18 but then arguably VHDL isn't nice for coding 20:41:22 oklopol: so do I! 20:41:33 I've been trying to think about a lang like that, but have been failing more or less 20:41:54 that would be so awesome, assuming it's done well, of course simple to do something like programs being some sort of a hash value that's expanded into the program... 20:42:17 one thing I thought of was hash-based in a different way 20:42:18 so that there's no non trivial way to make a wimpmode for it. 20:42:25 well how? 20:42:35 it took the md5 of your program, interpreted that as commands that were appended onto the end of the program, and repeated 20:42:36 something like a weird syntax definition mess might lead into that 20:42:44 heh 20:42:50 so it basically repeatedly md5'd a self-modifying program 20:42:58 and you had to modify it to give the correct hash results 20:43:12 but i don't want anything like that, i want something with graphs, so that when you actually do have the program in your head, you should have an idea what it does. 20:43:17 actually, using a simpler and reverse-engineerable hash (i.e. a bad one) might be able to create a practicallish program 20:43:21 graphs just because... well, i love em 20:46:39 ais523: is underload tc if ^ drops the code after it? 20:46:58 you mean like Muriel, ^ never returns? 20:47:03 not sure, I'll have to think about that 20:47:03 ya. 20:47:21 you can't encode sk as simply at least 20:47:57 'tis 20:48:03 you just need to put the rest of the program into the thing you're doing 20:48:06 probably via * 20:48:26 tusho_: but things like stack tricks normally use ^ to do 20:48:36 true 20:48:38 for instance I think you need ^ to swap elements 1 and 3 of the stack 20:49:23 that doesn't necessarily mean you couldn't just have whatever's after ^ now be before it, does it? 20:49:28 hmm 20:49:46 oklopol: abc^def is equivalent to abc(def)*^ 20:49:48 although you need some condition on the *... which prolly needs ^ 20:49:53 yeah 20:49:57 but unfortunately there's no obvious way to get programs into that form 20:50:20 what if you just do, err that? :P 20:50:31 i think it fails if you start passing ^'s around 20:51:13 s/\^(.+)/($1)*^/g 20:51:55 tusho_: that mangles (:^):^ badly, into (:():^)*^ 20:52:01 which isn't even in the required form 20:52:15 hm true 20:52:18 nor particularly meaningful, in fact it's an error 20:52:26 well, consider it to end at the ) :) 20:52:28 you know. 20:52:29 local to each () 20:52:38 doubt it still works that simply 20:52:47 quite simple to try raelly. 20:52:49 *really 20:52:58 well in that case (:^):^ fails if ^ obliterates the stack too and succeeds otherwise 20:53:05 but it probably fails on more complicated programs 20:53:45 (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^ => (()(*))(~:(:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^)*^):^ 20:54:26 oklopol: what did you change there? 20:54:28 ais523, hi 20:54:32 hi AnMaster 20:54:32 ais523, any issues? 20:54:36 oklopol: oh, I see now 20:54:38 i swoppered all ^'s. 20:54:53 but it doesn't actually keep it like that, when you evaluate it. 20:54:55 AnMaster: I haven't tried yet, been busy with ICFP, and then tired after that 20:54:59 oklopol: you forgot the first ^ 20:55:01 it's just when there's no nesting that this works 20:55:05 did i now` 20:55:06 no, sorry, the second 20:55:13 *? 20:55:17 ah. 20:55:22 i didn't see that there 20:55:25 lessee 20:56:13 ais523, care to make the rather simple fixes to make current cfunge work with c-intercal, I mentioned what was needed in a mail iirc 20:56:54 I'm still a bit tired and haven't been coding other than ICFP recently 20:56:59 but they'll definitely be done before release 20:57:16 valgrind --leak-check=full bin/ick -b pit/beer.i 20:57:19 interesting 20:57:26 well, it seems to work 20:57:30 AnMaster: what's interesting about that? 20:57:43 not sure if it works as it used to, but it seems to calculate fibs anyway 20:57:46 ais523, some leaks that look rather localized 20:57:48 * AnMaster checks 20:57:53 oklopol: the program will still work after that transformation, but not if you redefine ^ I don't think 20:58:01 also every time ^ is executed there, it is the last char 20:58:16 oklopol: ah, that is interesting 20:58:34 but, wonder if that is true for any tc subset of programs 20:58:53 blergh 20:58:57 -!- olsner has quit. 20:59:03 because it clearly isn't for all programs, as you can pass ^ around any way you like 20:59:27 -!- pikhq has left (?). 21:00:07 oklopol: what about when you have (^) 21:00:07 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 21:00:09 and end up calling that 21:00:11 -!- ihope has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.15/2008062306]"). 21:00:53 hwa? 21:02:09 i never said programs actually stay equal even if you do that transformation and drop the "call stack" 21:02:17 just that fibs seem to work 21:03:13 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 21:03:17 ais523, btw your interfunge is rather slow 21:03:29 ais523, but faster than zfunge and some other ones :D 21:03:42 AnMaster: interfunge isn't mine, it's J^4's 21:03:47 ah 21:03:58 ais523, do you understand how it works? 21:04:50 AnMaster: only vaguely, I haven't looked at it in detail but I patched a mistake in its go-away command 21:05:08 heh 21:06:56 an optimized cfunge really executes too fast for stuff like the game of life in b93 21:07:32 $ pit/interfunge < ~/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/mycology.b98 21:07:32 ICL241I VARIABLES MAY NOT BE STORED IN WEST HYPERSPACE 21:07:32 ON THE WAY TO 108 21:07:32 CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT 21:07:34 um 21:07:43 AnMaster: it's not befunge-98... 21:07:55 shouldn't it ignore everything outside the first 25x80 then... 21:07:56 come on, even you could have guessed that 21:08:01 I'm quite sure it should 21:08:09 so? 21:08:10 AnMaster: the spec doesn't say that 21:08:11 do you know it didn't? 21:08:13 it still crashed 21:08:15 ais523, hrrm 21:08:17 it just says programs are 25 by 80 21:08:25 ais523, also what does "WEST HYPERSPACE" mean? 21:08:36 interfunge is one of the few Befunge-93 interps I know that enforces this rule rather than ignoring the extra elements 21:08:40 AnMaster: it means array-out-of-bounds 21:08:40 -!- lilja has joined. 21:08:46 ais523, ah 21:09:18 normally the messages are related to the error pretty strongly, so they're easy to remember once you've seen them once 21:10:49 ais523: huh just realised what a nested/flat(concatenative) mix is 21:10:52 imperative :-) 21:10:58 x = ...; y = ...; x+y 21:11:02 no more nesting 21:12:00 ais523, I get same error when making the program 25x80 21:13:06 AnMaster: zomgz!!! Mycology fails on b93 interps! 21:13:07 So amazin 21:13:08 well, I've run it succesfully in the past 21:13:15 tusho_: it's meant to succeed, it has a b93 section 21:13:24 is the b93 section in 25x80? 21:13:27 yes 21:13:38 ah, ok 21:13:39 brb 21:13:49 tusho_, so stop being such a stupid git ;P 21:13:52 AnMaster: also for technical reasons the program has to end with a blank line in interfunge because INTERCAL has no EOF-detection 21:14:03 after the 25 original lines 21:14:07 ais523, I see, it didn't end in blank line 21:14:15 and use UNIX newlines 21:14:19 even with blank line same error 21:14:21 but you should get a different error if it doesn't end in a blank line 21:15:37 ais523, though this may not work for other reasons, it should still fit within 25x80 according to emacs http://rafb.net/p/2woPve50.html 21:15:54 ais523, and it cause west of hyperspace error 21:15:57 AnMaster: I just tested on my end and it worked 21:16:01 let me compare my version to yours 21:16:10 ais523, I used -bofF 21:16:18 to ick 21:16:18 could affect it? 21:16:31 err 21:16:32 O 21:16:33 not oi 21:16:36 not o* 21:16:39 AnMaster: shouldn't 21:16:44 let me run your program at my end 21:16:55 ais523, indeed doesn't affect it 21:17:14 ais523, what program? the pi one isn't mine, but it can be found in examples directory in cfunge 21:17:18 pi2.bf 21:17:32 AnMaster: mycology clipped to 25x80 21:18:03 I get a west-hyperspace error with your program 21:18:23 ais523, hm? my program == ? 21:18:31 == pi2.bf 21:18:31 pi2.bf? 21:18:33 AnMaster: look at the program 21:18:36 well check it's dimensions 21:18:38 look at line 2 specifically 21:18:50 reading backwards, >0399*p 21:18:54 ah 21:18:56 it's trying to p in (81,2) 21:18:59 s/2/3/ 21:19:04 ais523, well that you should error check for 21:19:07 which is out of bounds in Befunge-93 21:19:10 presumably not in Befunge-97 21:19:13 and I didn't write interfunge 21:19:19 hrrm 21:19:33 besides, interfunge just lets INTERCAL do the error checking and report an appropriate error message 21:19:58 $ wc -c << EOF 21:19:58 > 0#@>. 1#@v>#@,55+"skrow , :DOOG",,,,,,,,,,,,,,1#v:$v>"pud t'nseod : DAB",,,,,,,v 21:19:58 > EOF 21:19:58 79 21:20:06 so that line should be short enough 21:20:34 $ wc -l /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/my93.bf 21:20:34 24 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/my93.bf 21:20:37 $ pit/interfunge < /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/my93.bf 21:20:37 ICL241I VARIABLES MAY NOT BE STORED IN WEST HYPERSPACE 21:20:42 ais523, I'll pastebin 21:20:56 http://rafb.net/p/pynyck85.html 21:21:04 it even contains the blank line you wanted 21:21:38 $ ls -l mycology-stripped.bf 21:21:38 -rw-r--r-- 1 ais523 ais523 1864 2008-07-15 21:15 mycology-stripped.bf 21:21:44 is your version the same size? 21:22:16 -rw-r--r-- 1 arvid arvid 1968 15 jul 22.21 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/my93.bf 21:22:26 I wonder why it's bigger 21:22:32 ais523, CRLF 21:22:36 do you have crlf? 21:22:39 mycology use it 21:22:41 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lolwhut?"). 21:22:41 ah, that would be the problem 21:22:54 ais523, well in b93 you are allowed to not support it 21:22:58 but in b98 you have to 21:23:04 I recommend you support it 21:23:14 AnMaster: again, it's not my befunge-93 interp, ok? 21:23:18 complain to J^4 about it not me 21:23:22 $ du -b ~/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/my93.bf 21:23:22 1944 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/my93.bf 21:23:25 after change to LF 21:23:32 it works 21:23:36 however there is an issue 21:23:41 _ 21:23:41 I 21:23:41 II 21:23:48 with a lot of blank lines 21:23:54 that is not correct behaviour 21:24:01 for a befunge interpreter 21:24:16 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 21:24:19 AnMaster: it's using INTERCAL numeric output 21:24:22 ais523, it makes newlines where it shouldn't 21:24:29 back 21:24:34 I don't care about using roman numerals 21:24:40 AnMaster: INTERCAL always outputs numbers with newlines so that it can put the overbars on 21:24:45 but the newlines after numerals are just plain wrong 21:24:54 so it fails mycology in other words 21:24:55 e.g. 10000 in Roman numerals is X with an underscore above it 21:24:58 which is two lines tall 21:25:10 ais523, maybe, but it is still wrong in befunge93. period. 21:25:16 I don't think it's meant to be conforming in that respect 21:25:26 besides befunge93 says 'decimal' in the docs so it doesn't allow Roman numerals 21:25:39 ais523, also it fails in another point: 21:25:41 BAD: SGML spaces in Funge-93 21:25:54 err 21:25:54 wait 21:25:57 my fault 21:26:01 GOOD: Funge-93 spaces 21:26:02 AnMaster: it's written in frucking intercal 21:26:06 do you want it to be perfect?! 21:26:08 ais523, my fault 21:26:12 tusho_, so stop being such a stupid git ;P 21:26:18 also it was J^4's first INTERCAL program, cut them some slack 21:26:22 i don't think that was warranted, AnMaster 21:26:27 tusho_, maybe not 21:26:36 tusho_, I'm afraid I forgot the ~ 21:26:42 still not very nice 21:26:42 ais523, heh ok 21:26:51 though I guess curse levels are hard to learn in a foreign language :) 21:27:55 ja fy fan, det är det 21:27:58 * AnMaster runs 21:28:56 hrrm 21:29:03 should I implement TERM tonight? 21:29:12 which fingerprint's that? 21:29:17 terminal stuff 21:29:21 ais523, it would use ncurses 21:29:27 AnMaster: if you can do that then you can do trds! 21:29:36 tusho_, not really, this is easier 21:29:54 tusho_: trds is amazingly difficult to implement because of all the metadata you have to track 21:30:00 it's worse than call/cc 21:30:09 yes I have read ccbi sources for it 21:30:13 horrible 21:30:25 and well, not just feral, but positively wild 21:32:01 arguably it's worse than IFFI in terms of feralness 21:32:53 ais523, yes as IFFI doesn't have the issue of concurrency at the same time 21:32:58 while TRDS does 21:34:20 in fact I won't need ncurses, I will just need termcap 21:34:43 NCRS will be worse 21:42:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:54:51 -!- anjo has joined. 21:55:03 saluton 21:56:36 anjo: hi 21:56:41 you knew? 21:56:42 *new 21:57:12 hi anjo 21:57:14 and oerjan 21:57:55 hi 21:58:12 ais523: do you know xpath? 21:58:12 Deewiant, if you want TERM to work on linux see: man curs_terminfo 21:58:21 'evening 21:58:24 tusho_, do you know buzzwords? ;P 21:58:33 AnMaster: xpath isn't a buzzword.. 21:58:35 tusho_: no 21:58:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XPath 21:58:46 tusho_, well it was turned into one for a bit 21:59:01 same way as java isn't a buzzword, or .NET isn't 21:59:07 AnMaster: that's just the "OMG XML TECHNOLOGIES" buzzword categorisation system 21:59:13 tusho_, indeed 21:59:18 * AnMaster prefers S-Expressions 21:59:44 AnMaster: You say that but somehow I think you are just blindly repeating what you've heard. 21:59:51 tusho_: what advantages does that have over CSS? 21:59:51 XML has many use-cases, and they're not s-expressions'. 21:59:59 ais523: it can do more complex selectors 22:00:01 easier 22:00:02 tusho_, well I do prefer S-Expressions 22:00:06 I coded with them 22:00:11 supertux use it for data format 22:00:18 and since I worked a lot on that project... 22:00:21 AnMaster: XML and its assorted technologies are far more suitable in numerous cases. 22:00:22 And vise-versa. 22:00:24 XML got a lot of overhead 22:00:40 i prefer sandwiches over dog poo, even though dog poo has much more uses. 22:00:43 HTML works well, because it is mostly text with some markup in 22:00:45 I like using JSON for some of the things that people misuse XML for, but it has leigitimate uses too 22:00:47 basically 22:00:57 while xml for data storage gets a LOT of overhead 22:01:02 oklopol: really? Can you substantiate the second part of that statement? 22:01:31 AnMaster: look, XML is usable in a wide range of cases, and most "XML sucks, use s-expressions" people are totally wrong 22:01:40 in this case, I am manipulating a markup document. 22:01:46 tusho_, then it makes sense 22:01:47 ais523: you can make pretty much anything out of it, just have to dry it up 22:02:01 sandwiches, well, you can eat them. 22:02:10 AnMaster: eXtensible MARKUP language 22:02:16 you can also eat dog poo, which might be the xml equivalent of coding in xml 22:02:16 oklopol: have you never made sandwich sculptures before? 22:02:17 tusho_, however for some stuff XML overhead is just a quite huge 22:02:24 tusho_, yes indeed, problem is people misuse it 22:02:27 ais523: well no, but i doubt that'd work all that well 22:02:37 "xml equivalent of coding in xml" 22:02:38 AnMaster: that's a ridiculous argument 22:02:38 admittedly, I haven't, but it would seem like a reasonable pastime 22:02:39 because as you said 22:02:45 "X is bad because when you misuse it, it has huge overhead" 22:02:46 * oklopol sucks 22:02:48 "OMG XML TECHNOLOGIES" buzzword 22:02:56 tusho_, it does have overhead for a lot of stuff 22:03:02 that it is commonly used for 22:03:03 AnMaster: all of which are misuses. 22:03:10 yes 22:03:21 ais523: now i'm wondering if you have seen/made many dog poo sculptures... 22:03:27 tusho_: one issue is that XML has huge overhead even when used properly, e.g. look at XHTML vs. that ruby-based framework you used for the notary report 22:03:32 oerjan: no, I haven't 22:03:39 ais523++ 22:03:44 ais523: XHTML is crap 22:03:47 we can all accept that 22:03:55 it's a misuse of XML 22:04:06 and S-Expressions wouldn't be good for HTML 22:04:09 really wouldn't 22:04:12 because HTML should be lenient and basically nothing should result in a "BROKEN PAGE" 22:04:25 xml, however, requires a total abort on invalid documents (which is useful when it's used for the things it should be) 22:04:31 ergo, xhtml = broken for the web and always will be 22:04:48 why should HTML be lenient? 22:05:05 because tusho is lazy I guess 22:05:14 laziness has nothing to do with it 22:05:18 AnMaster: that's the stupidest thing you've said all day, ok. 22:05:22 tusho_, should an ADA compiler be lenient? 22:05:26 ~ 22:05:28 lament: you don't *really* want to be bombarded with links to many-paged articles about it, do you? 22:05:55 tusho_, also it was sarcasm... 22:06:23 AnMaster: also Haskell is lazy, is that an insult? 22:06:27 tusho_: no, because all those articles are dumb 22:06:33 ais523, hah! 22:06:41 lament: either you're reading the wrong ones or you're just wrong 22:06:42 :) 22:06:43 * AnMaster curses ncurses 22:07:03 * oerjan ncurses curses 22:07:04 tusho_: if all web browsers suddenly started rejecting all malformed HTML, it would not be that big of a deal 22:07:15 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA 22:07:23 lament: go and hack up a patch to your browser to do that. 22:07:26 go browse the web. 22:07:33 lament, I think you are wrong, a lot of pages doesn't validate 22:07:35 then come back to me and remark on how stupid that idea was 22:07:37 sadly 22:07:49 well, if enough people did that, a lot more pages would start validating 22:07:55 ais523, indeed! 22:08:01 just like when Firefox became popular a lot more sites stopped using IE-only markup 22:08:10 yes 22:08:14 ais523: actually, everyone would suddenly stop using firefox 22:08:18 because google won't work on it 22:09:10 AnMaster: ... you do realize I already tried to use those routines 22:09:27 Deewiant, well I'm using them with some limited success atm 22:09:48 AnMaster: i never said that many pages validate. 22:10:00 tusho_: I said "all web browsers", not "my browser" 22:10:08 tusho_: actually, I just looked at the source for Google, it looks like HTML 2 or something, maybe it is 22:10:16 Wikipedia validates 22:10:23 lament: People would ring up microsoft and yell at them that they broke the internet. 22:10:24 Deewiant, what was the problem for you? 22:10:27 Then microsoft would reverse it. 22:10:34 Then people would stop using FF because it still broke the internet. 22:10:35 tusho_: okay. 22:10:40 AnMaster: I can't remember 22:10:56 ais523: it doesn't have a doctype - right off the bat, it can't validate 22:10:58 I probably told you at the time, though :-P 22:11:04 tusho_: i agree that backwards compatibility is important, although in this case all it would take is microsoft saying "no, we won't revert it" to turn it into a non-issue. 22:11:20 tusho_: yes, also the content of the page doesn't correspond to any modern doctype, that's why I guessed html 2 22:11:22 AnMaster: the code I was using is still in term.d, just commented out there 22:11:26 backwards compatibility sucks ass 22:11:27 tusho_: but when it's the _only_ reason, then at least you can try to improve the situation in the future, and hope that eventually all the old pages will just die of old page. 22:11:28 lament: That would be called "Microsoft's stock drops because they broke the internet for the majority of users." 22:11:34 tusho_: and XHTML is an attempt to do that. 22:11:41 Followed by "Microsoft reverses decision to reject invalid pages." 22:11:50 (I am intentionally misusing 'internet' here.) 22:11:51 humanity should be erased every 10 years, with only the most pure inventions and top scientists to repopulate 22:11:53 tusho_: actually IE8 rejects invalid pages by default 22:11:59 err 22:12:00 ais523: invalid XHTML pages 22:12:03 because it's mandatory 22:12:04 perhaps a bigger interval 22:12:09 but anyway, i'm sure you agree 22:12:18 tusho_: so what's the problem, then? 22:12:20 but a lot of pages identifying as XHTML actually are 22:12:21 yes, and tries to parse pages standardsly even if they use markup that worked on IE7 22:12:27 because you have to know what XHTML is 22:12:29 which means you know what web standards are; etc 22:12:34 tusho_: in fact almost all of them, because the ones that don't don't work 22:12:42 ais523: no 22:12:44 that is not the reason 22:12:49 that is the reason 22:12:58 all modern browsers reject bad XHTML for obvious reasons 22:13:11 because the spec absolutely, completely requires them to 22:13:20 yes, so people trying to test an XHTML website will find it doesn't work in anything if it's broken 22:13:23 and because the only people who tag their pages as XHTML in the doctype already have checked their pages 22:13:39 i'd vouch that a hell of a lot of web page authors don't know what the w3c is 22:13:50 tusho_: well, if they tried without checking their page it wouldn't work 22:14:03 if HTML had acted the same way all along, pretty much the entire internet would be valid HTML 22:14:13 ais523: how about you draft a patch up for this and send it off to mozilla.org and watch them all laugh at you...? 22:14:18 and yes 22:14:23 but it'd also be a heck of a lot smaller 22:14:24 tusho_: it can't be changed /now/ for HTML, is what I'm saying 22:14:29 massively smallr 22:14:34 because the barrier to entry is immediately huge 22:14:40 Someone once sent me a link to a log on IM, and told me to read it in IE, because it was broken in Fx 22:14:41 there's such a thing as a "completely wrong" page, it won't show 22:14:45 you need to check it with a special thing 22:14:52 and it gives you messages telling you you're wrong 22:14:53 tusho_: nah, I don't think so, most people use tools like FrontPage or Dreamweaver nowadays and they could easily be fixed to produce valid HTML, I hope 22:14:56 and you have to fix them 22:14:59 until it stops yelling at you 22:15:13 ais523: ever seen a badge on a web page saying "Coded in NOTEPAD: the only true way" or whatever? 22:15:14 Something with encoding. Also, it was done in MS Word 22:15:23 There's a fair selection of people who think they're hardcore for handcoding invalid html 22:15:28 tusho_: no, actually I haven't seen that for any website bit vi 22:15:37 s/website bit/editor but/ 22:15:54 does vi automatically put advertising onto the bottom of websites it edits, or something? 22:15:54 ais523: you venture on the sane part of the internet, then :) 22:15:57 and no 22:16:03 that seems completely against vi spirit 22:16:10 vi just love waving their e-peen around 22:16:12 *vi users 22:16:15 I see it with vi quite a bit though 22:16:28 yes, because most of them think they're awesome for using a particular editor 22:16:32 it's quite common on emacs pages too 22:16:39 but emacs users seem to be less religious 22:16:40 generally 22:17:37 hrrrrrr 22:17:56 lilja: rrrrrrrrrrrrrh 22:18:00 tusho_: actually I thought emacs users tended to be even more religious than vi users, except me 22:18:16 ais523: depends 22:18:25 they're usually more religious but only if you talk to them about it 22:18:28 emacs was, of course, invented specifically as a program for Richard Stallman to be able to do everything he liked from one definitely-Stallman-free program 22:18:31 vi users are less religious but they're religious _all the time_ 22:18:47 and other people have benefitted from that by coincidence 22:18:51 sort of like free-loading 22:19:30 ais523: it amuses me that he would think "what I need is an OS" 22:19:33 i thought he already thought that... 22:19:58 tusho_: not exactly, he was building an OS, what he needed was an applicatoin 22:19:59 -!- Corun has joined. 22:20:04 not more than one though, he wasn't greedy 22:20:15 ais523: but the application is an OS, effectively 22:20:19 it's a platform for running applications 22:20:23 well, it has to be if it's only one application 22:20:28 that's what emacs is, it just happens to be structured like an editor 22:20:29 and yet it does everything 22:20:39 it's an OS that has an editor in its very core due to bad design 22:20:39 :) 22:20:54 tusho_: well, maybe a shell not an OS 22:20:57 it isn't really a kernel 22:21:02 by any stretch of the imagination 22:21:13 an os doesn't have to have a kernel 22:21:17 and it doesn't have its own filesystem, just integrates with other things 22:21:20 Ubuntu is an OS and it's a different one from Gentoo 22:21:24 ls has an Emacs option, I think 22:21:27 they share the kernel, filesystems, ... 22:21:39 and yes 22:21:40 --dired 22:21:43 well, Ubuntu's the whole OS, whereas Emacs is just the shell 22:22:15 ais523: a shell can run any program 22:22:20 Ubuntu comes bundled with Linux, Emacs doesn't 22:22:21 emacs can only run programs that are written for it 22:22:27 it's an OS> 22:22:40 tusho_: it can run other programs too, M-x shell-command and all that 22:23:01 ais523: that's totally cheating though :) 22:23:16 tusho_: no it isn't, it forks and execs just like any other shell does 22:23:29 that's totally not the point though :| 22:23:38 Emacs also happens to be a programming language interp, though, that's why it can run lots of programs written for it 22:23:53 if you write a program in JavaScript does that make a web browser an OS? 22:24:31 no... 22:24:36 but let's just drop this, it's going nowhere 22:24:37 :p 22:28:32 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:30:00 -!- anjo has left (?). 22:33:28 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 22:38:10 ok I got it to work partly Deewiant 22:38:17 by taking code from an ncurses example 22:38:23 not sure why clear works now 22:38:38 Confound you, quaterions! 22:38:55 cherez, um what has they got to do with this? 22:38:56 Confound you, cherez! 22:39:03 AnMaster: Why does he have to talk about your topic? 22:39:06 I'm not sure. 22:39:07 Why can't he talk about what he wants? 22:39:10 ah 22:39:25 well I just got confounded by him 22:39:50 I was just confounding them, and thought someone might come up with a quaternion based esolang. 22:39:51 * oerjan throws an octonion at cherez 22:39:54 so he was successful I guess 22:40:06 oerjan, that exists? 22:40:13 yes 22:40:24 Those are the non-associative ones, right? 22:40:27 non-associative multiplication 22:44:41 ais523: how is overload doing 22:44:49 not very much at present 22:44:51 aw 22:44:55 I'm interested in it 22:44:57 I think I may have to restart writing the interp a third time 22:45:05 ais523: what do you think about my longest-valid-command-name idea, btw? 22:45:05 because it's the ideal lang to implement Shove in, I think 22:45:13 from where? 22:45:16 abcdefg - if you have 'ab', 'cdef', and 'g' as commands, 22:45:16 that's 22:45:19 ab cdef g 22:45:27 tusho_: CLC-INTERCAL's parser does that 22:45:28 if you also have 'cde' and want it differently, ad a space 22:45:32 same 22:45:38 abcde fg 22:45:42 also Cyclexa does that 22:45:46 with @ rather than space 22:45:48 ais523: still, it's good for a golfing language 22:45:51 but it has tiebreak rules 22:46:00 it'd sure help with golfscript-competitors 22:46:10 so say if ab and bc are both commands, there'll be a defined parsing of abc 22:46:16 which depends on the priorities of ab and bc 22:46:29 and Cyclexa's deliberately designed to be golfable 22:46:41 abc would always be ab c 22:46:45 if ab is defined 22:46:47 whereas Overload was a golfing lang all along 22:46:55 ais523: remember, ninjacode needs to be fast too 22:46:55 tusho_: Cyclexa parses based on which combination has the most meaning 22:47:07 really fast 22:47:10 Overload intentionally ignores performance, on the basis that computers get better all the time 22:47:17 and so do optimisation techniques 22:47:27 -!- lilja has quit ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'"). 22:47:35 ais523: it's kind of like saying that you should use a string rewriting language because computers are getting faster 22:47:44 besides, my language is meant to be able to exceed c speed 22:47:45 this isn't a "should", it's a "can" 22:47:47 if you get down and dirty 22:47:59 the one thing ninjacode is not designed for is readability 22:48:04 incidentally, I was thinking about the cfunge-speed argument you and AnMaster had 22:48:10 which is how it achieves this seemingly-impossible feat 22:48:14 ais523: different goals 22:48:18 and decided the reason why golfing befunge for speed was silly was because it had no competitors 22:48:18 ninjacode is for totally pwning anagolf 22:48:37 so maybe I'll try to write a really fast befunge-93 to asm compiler using a techinique someone suggested on the talk page 22:48:48 of using self-modifying asm to do self-modifying Befunge 22:48:55 ais523: OMG THAT'S NOT BEFUNGE98!!!!!!!!!!!1112163717823612873681723612783 22:49:04 93's easier 22:49:07 and decided the reason why golfing befunge for speed was silly was because it had no competitors <-- huh? 22:49:13 Of course, but that's the argument AnMaster will give you, ais523 22:49:16 :) 22:49:36 AnMaster: the reason trying to get cfunge as fast as possible seems a bit strange to tusho is simply because there's nothing to compare it to 22:49:39 would be interesting 22:49:51 if there were two lightning-fast befunge implementatinos it would be more interesting 22:49:54 ais523, well I can compare against a previous revision 22:49:59 AnMaster: the reason trying to get cfunge as fast as possible seems a bit strange to tusho is simply because there's nothing to compare it to 22:50:01 and also, because, well 22:50:05 it's kind of a total waste of time. 22:50:12 nothing is a waste of time 22:50:14 tusho_: no it isn't, if you were 22:50:16 tusho_, well esoteric languages all are then 22:50:26 AnMaster: no they're not 22:50:28 tusho_: think about it this way: what esolang would you say is the most practically useful? 22:50:42 ais523: not the point - interestingness 22:50:45 I know it isn't a usual criterion for esolangs, but think about it 22:50:52 it doesn't make it any more interesting. it doesn't make it any more usable because nothing needs that speed. it's also blanketed (everything is optimized even if the optimization won't help much). 22:50:53 etc. 22:50:56 I'd probably say Befunge, which is why Befunge is a good choice for speeding up 22:51:04 thus, it is a waste of time 22:53:19 god i hate it when people tell others what they should or should not do in their own time. 22:53:33 oklopol: i'm not 22:53:50 i'm telling him it's a complete waste of time 22:53:53 * oerjan wonders which esolang wastes the _most_ time ... when running 22:54:06 well i guess you're just expressing your opinion a bit annoyingly 22:54:10 and that's why I argue with him when someone defends it 22:54:17 err, when I argue with the defender 22:54:23 note to self - don't modify one part of a sentence and leave the other 22:54:23 -!- Corun has joined. 22:54:38 tusho_: perhaps, perhaps, i'm very, very tired. 22:55:05 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1""). 22:57:52 Deewiant, if you are there, in TERM fingerprint, should negative counts for "lines to go upwards" work? 22:58:14 AnMaster: TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS 22:58:27 tusho_, you misread, I said TERM 22:58:31 TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS 22:59:33 someone reboot tusho please 22:59:52 oerjan: TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS 22:59:57 TRDS? TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS! TRDS. 23:07:57 what is this trds everyone keeps talking about? 23:08:11 oklopol: TRDS 23:19:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:22:44 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:31:15 oklopol, http://web.archive.org/web/20020816190021/http://homer.span.ch/~spaw1088/funge.html#trds 23:34:20 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:34:30 Deewiant, I added a TERM using the functions from term.h, you may want to take a look at mine 23:34:59 Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/fU6mi089.html 23:35:20 wow 23:35:31 that's like... calculated call/cc 23:35:31 -!- Corun has joined. 23:36:44 oklopol: it even rewinds stdout 23:36:46 and stdin 23:36:51 oklopol, yes painful 23:37:01 oklopol, and NOT something I will ever implement 23:37:05 ccbi does implement it however 23:40:11 Does it rewind stdout if you've piped it into something? 23:40:38 GregorR: Not sur. 23:40:39 e. 23:40:41 Maybe. 23:40:51 Think it detects tty-ness, GregorR 23:41:17 how can you rewind stdout? 23:41:54 to me that makes no sense 23:42:08 there is no unputc, just ungetc 23:45:42 AnMaster: Just erase the chars on the screen. 23:46:10 that may not work on some terminals 23:46:31 a putp(clr_screen); in konsole at least will still leave scrollback 23:48:09 AnMaster: It just uses ncurses or whatever 23:49:17 k 23:49:28 tusho_, well that is what putp(clr_screen); does 23:49:30 ncurses 23:49:35 sure, whatever 23:49:35 :) 23:57:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2008-07-16: 00:03:22 night 00:21:37 oklopol: 00:35:23 -!- Corun has changed nick to Coreina. 00:45:04 -!- Coreina has changed nick to Corun. 00:47:21 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:50:09 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 01:25:53 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 01:32:43 -!- ihope has joined. 01:34:57 * ihope comes and sees 01:35:16 ? 01:35:21 O_O oh noes! he knows about us! 01:35:47 * ihope chases oerjan while screaming, "IT'S GOOD FOR YOU!" 01:37:05 BUT I'M ALLERGIC TO IT! 01:37:28 Oh. 01:37:34 * ihope switches vegetables 01:37:35 * ihope chases oerjan while screaming, "IT'S GOOD FOR YOU!" 01:37:40 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit). 01:37:47 BUT IT'S YUCKY! 01:37:56 AND IT MOVES! 01:38:50 Eating crunchy vegetables is good for me, and it's good for you, so eat them too, something about the bunch! Three cheers for me, Captain Vegetable! Crunch, crunch, crunch! 01:39:20 * oerjan eats Captain Vegetable to end this travesty 01:39:53 Yay, Crunchy! 01:40:41 My name is Oerjan, and I like coerjan / If it's... um, poured on, gimme some coerjan! 01:41:52 * oerjan wonders what the original of that was 01:43:08 My name is Andy/Eddie, (and) I like candy/spaghetti / If it's handy/ready, gimme (some) candy/spaghetti! 01:43:43 Add and and some to taste. And make sure the syllable count remains the same, and all. 01:48:51 just don't get Huck involved in this 01:57:21 -!- puzzlet_ has changed nick to puzzlet. 02:32:18 I think I'm allergic to my damn shoes. 02:32:23 That's pair #4 02:32:28 I'm so tired of shoes. 02:33:25 Don't wear shoes. 02:33:34 Find public places that don't say "no shoes, no service". 02:33:45 I find walking on gravel to be unpleasant without shoes. 02:34:02 clearly you need to walk upside down, since you like hats 02:35:31 You'll get used to it. 03:00:44 I find that developing hobbits-feet is handy. 03:08:32 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 03:12:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:15:14 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:03:23 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 04:11:22 :D 04:11:38 I grow weary of working 04:11:39 perhaps 04:11:46 I should create a robot 04:11:48 that works for me 04:12:25 Surely there's some mindless task that people still pay other people to do... that I could automate into a bot. 04:30:16 Surely. 04:30:24 * ihope ponders 04:30:29 Zamboni driving. 05:12:46 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 05:31:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 05:49:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:15:03 Deewiant, I got an issue, I think my V and S in STRN are correct (checked what it pushes with gdb), mycology however doesn't agree 08:15:34 BAD: "0987654321"VS isn't 1234567890 08:15:41 that would in the end push the string again 08:16:28 are you sure the mycology check is correct? 08:18:41 one can never be sure of anything 08:18:53 Deewiant, bbiab, going to swim 08:18:57 it's open source you know, just check what it checks for and check that it's right :-P 08:32:02 -!- lilja has joined. 08:46:39 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:47:10 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 09:21:17 i recall getting quite strange looks when walking to the shop in the winter without shoes on 09:21:30 used to dislike shoes a lot 09:23:02 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 09:23:28 think i went one whole summer without shoes, after which shoes actually hurt... not sure why, perhaps a psychosomatic thing 09:28:33 ah, i'd forgotten how nice the c++ template system actually was 09:28:42 it's just so convenient 09:40:22 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:41:38 -!- Judofyr_ has left (?). 09:42:15 -!- lilja has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:48:55 ah, i'd forgotten how nice the c++ template system actually was 09:49:02 BLERGH 10:03:08 Deewiant, actually it was an off by one error on my side 10:04:51 Deewiant, hrrm my my mycouser STRN always fails to load, I guess this isn't the last version? 10:11:48 if there's an "r" instruction somewhere there then it's one of the versions where I forgot an "r" where a "(" should be 10:12:32 ah 10:12:38 right there was an r 10:15:24 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p134452546.txt <<< changed phase rules a bit, you can now be in multiple states 10:15:32 always is just a boolean variable that evaluates to true 10:15:41 so the phase always: is always on 10:16:08 oklopol, huh is that for a programming language 10:16:16 yeah 10:16:56 oklopol, hello world in it please 10:16:57 that should be a fully legal program in it, except it would do nothing unless actually piped into something that knows how to do the primitive operations 10:17:10 you can't output 10:17:14 ah ok 10:17:16 well 10:17:25 it's really a language template 10:17:53 turing complete language? 10:17:57 i can choose print to be a member variable that's printed 10:18:09 the program would then be first => print "Hello world!" 10:18:28 oklopol, ok... what sort of language is this? 10:18:30 so it would once, when the program starts, set print to "Hello world!", then do nothing more 10:18:41 it's a declarative language disguised as event-based 10:18:47 ah 10:18:50 basically condition => result 10:19:05 but it's kinda OO, you're always describing an object 10:19:12 bbiab food 10:19:23 that changes its state and it's member variables 10:19:33 it's designed for making bot ai's 10:19:54 basically, that would be the thing that changes the bot's state, and queries its surroundings 10:20:23 the actual physics / graphics for a game, or things like that, would be supplied in another language 10:20:55 although you could of course make a language over Ob to give you the graphics shit too 10:21:21 but it always needs to be plugged into something eventually, as there is no preset IO functionality 10:21:47 it's kinda purely functional, although completely imperative, except, of course, entirely declarative. 10:22:39 well it's not really purely functional in any way :P 10:22:46 just got caught up in the moment or something 10:23:27 about tcness, i have a forall construct /X in the language, so it's superturing :P 10:23:47 and an exists construct, \X 10:25:28 you can do something like {/X: \Y: (length Y) > 1 && (product Y) = X} to test if all numbers are composite 10:26:04 although it doesn't actually have functions yet 10:28:55 hmm, actually i'm wrong, it already has functions 10:29:18 actually also boolean equality checks are basically calling booleans with other booleans 10:29:36 state killing: is equal to state = killing: 10:29:55 it's just englishier to drop the = 10:30:57 the language is quite flexible, implicit comments, whitespace based nesting, explicit nesting & lines separators, whitespace based operator precedence 10:31:00 all that shit 10:31:33 i haven't really made languages without whitespace based operator precedence after "inventing" it when making graphica 10:31:51 not that it's complex enough to need inventing, more like found its sexiness 10:39:57 back 10:40:12 (now adding objects without changing syntax, god i'm perverted) 10:40:21 basicaly 10:40:23 *basically 10:40:41 i was thinking objects could be created by "calling" a phase. 10:40:43 so 10:40:59 it's kinda purely functional, although completely imperative, except, of course, entirely declarative. <-- haha 10:41:03 if you have the phase "object human:" 10:41:12 "superturing"? 10:41:20 which would normally become active when the variable object is set to human 10:41:23 err 10:41:23 yeah 10:41:34 superturing, can evaluate H() 10:41:39 anyway 10:41:47 H()? 10:41:51 if you have the "object human:" phase 10:41:52 err 10:41:55 halting test 10:41:58 anyway 10:41:58 ah 10:42:00 if you have the "object human:" phase 10:42:03 yes? 10:42:06 and you do something like 10:42:15 myHuman = object human 10:42:34 it will actually start a new thread that executes the code in the object human phase 10:42:43 oh my 10:42:50 and you get an id that links to that thread 10:42:55 which is basically an object 10:43:43 wait a mo, i'll add "movement" to that guy i just defined, by using it as an object in another environment 10:44:06 oklopol, so what about thread sync? 10:44:10 like mutexes? 10:45:45 oklopol, are you got at perl regex? 10:46:00 I forgot the syntax for a negative lookbehind 10:46:24 (? thanks 10:46:39 Only fixed-width contents, though. 10:46:45 yeah I know that 10:47:18 I just wanted to find any american spelling in my source, so I grepped for ize, but "size" matches that too 10:47:39 pcregrep '(? :D 10:48:18 [^s]ize probably would've been easier; of course it's not the same since it won't match if you've got a line starting with "ize", but I hardly think that's a real issue. 10:48:38 fizzie, I could have one with size as well as normalize 10:48:41 in fact I had one 10:48:58 wait that would still match 10:49:13 Well, I guess you'd miss things like "resize", but... 10:49:22 that one would be size too 10:50:31 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p565145255.txt 10:50:45 AnMaster: i'm working at a much higher level than thread sync 10:50:55 oklopol, ah 10:50:55 the threads cannot be just "threads". 10:50:59 i mean 10:51:01 if someone says something 10:51:11 everything that triggers @ that must be executed 10:51:56 there are many subtleties, the language is meant to be trivial to code, and very extendable; it is not meant to be feasible to implement :P 10:52:09 but it should be fast enough if used wel 10:52:11 well 10:52:19 and it's compilable, in many senses of that word 10:52:54 -!- tusho has joined. 10:52:59 for instance, many times you can leave the explicit type of X out, because the fact X.name is used makes it possible to optimize X to a human variable 10:53:31 hi ais523 10:53:34 this is because fields are not first class, and it can easily be deduced the global object will never set its name field to anything 10:53:37 (that was intentional) 10:53:41 we know 10:53:47 too slow not to 10:54:15 tusho: read my rant about ob if you have the... err.. guts? 10:54:21 oklopol: link to logs? 10:54:26 hehe 10:54:28 also 10:54:33 you should totally make fields first class. 10:54:46 http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ 10:54:52 why is that? 10:55:02 'cause nobody's done it before oklopol 10:55:09 oklopol, you know of applescript? 10:55:13 you can do that in oklotalk... 10:55:26 oklopol: just field nams 10:55:28 not field 10:55:28 oklopol, your language looks too much like English :( 10:55:29 s 10:55:36 AnMaster: ob does not look lik eenglish dude 10:55:45 AnMaster: they're comments 10:55:51 hm 10:55:53 ah 10:55:59 you can remove all the english, it's no 10:56:00 nop 10:56:05 oklopol, so what string marks it as a comment? 10:56:12 nothing 10:56:17 that's what marks it 10:56:19 AnMaster: invalidness is ignored I imagine 10:56:20 um 10:56:22 ah 10:56:22 like intercal 10:56:25 right 10:56:28 it's certainly esoteric 10:56:28 :) 10:56:41 also, I like how you say it's too close to english 10:56:43 " Implicit always condition for toplevel definitions. SeeFood is not a lambda, but basically a 10:56:43 string substitution, which by default uses X for what's bound. A slight difference is seen when 10:56:43 a condition variable like seeFood is negated, where an implicit "forall X" is added." 10:56:45 that's not "close" :) 10:57:13 => is for an event, : in the end is for a phase, := or = is for setting a variable 10:57:15 -!- timotiis has joined. 10:57:15 otherwise ignored 10:57:59 perhaps a language should be made where programs are sentences explaining the language in english :P 10:58:33 the implicit forall is actually quite impure when explained like that 10:59:15 actually, even as a concept it's kinda impure 10:59:34 hmm 10:59:50 actually not, i guess 11:00:01 if we forget all practicality for a moment 11:00:15 now 11:00:22 condition X => result 11:00:37 means that we try to find an X such that for that value of X condition is true 11:00:56 usually this is trivial, but condition here can be any expression, so it can be impossible just as well 11:01:01 now if we do 11:01:34 !(condition X), we should actually choose an X such that this is not true 11:01:42 and clearly this is what is often wanted 11:02:03 like, condition X && !(X\human) 11:02:39 wait, father called... 11:06:37 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Remote closed the previous member app"). 11:06:40 okay, i'll continue 11:06:43 basically 11:06:50 if the implicit forall was used here 11:07:36 then this would be always false, if there were any humans, because for some X's, the latter thingie, !(X\human), would be true 11:07:51 so clearly we usually want an implicit existential quantification 11:07:58 like in functional programming 11:08:17 well in functional programming the existential quantification is just pattern matching, prolog is a better example 11:09:11 oklopol: ic ic 11:09:27 but, anyway, i'm going for intuitive in these kind of cases 11:09:42 for most situations, it should do what a stupid programmer might think it does 11:10:12 well, not because i want idiots to be able to use it, it's actually because i like compactness 11:11:39 anyway, the "/X: X\human => print X + " is in state " + X.state" line is not right 11:11:48 i'm going for "do this to all humans" 11:12:01 but the scope of /X would be the condition 11:12:29 in which case you could not actually use X on the right side, as you usually can't @ universal quantification 11:13:41 *nos* 11:13:43 *nod* 11:15:18 father called again 11:15:21 anyway 11:16:42 i'll prolly do like "/X: condition X => result" == "if for all X condition X, then result", and "/X: (condition X => result)" = "for all X for which condition X is true, evaluate result" 11:16:50 which is quite intuitive 11:17:20 basically i could just say \X: has only condition scope by default, and you could prolly guess how to extend it like that, and what it would mean 11:18:11 this only applies when you're using events as expressions in a result thingie 11:18:18 oklopol: i am reading 11:18:18 btw 11:18:20 :) 11:18:33 like, when @ condition => result, result contains a (condition => result) 11:18:37 tusho: reading what? P: 11:18:38 :P 11:18:40 my rant? 11:18:46 yea! 11:18:49 hehe :P 11:20:00 anyway it only applies there, because otherwise it's not actually defined what order shit happens in, although i'm going to add specific rules where there's an obvious order to do thing in 11:20:21 like, in case there are two conditions on field x, one of which changes x 11:20:25 hmm... 11:20:36 i guess you'd go with appearance order in that case. 11:21:07 i could perhaps make the evaluation order fully explicit. with the exception you could change it in cases where the result is the same 11:21:45 which is not all that rare, and which is quite a stupid thing to explicitly allow :P 11:22:06 "you can do this differently, if the result is the same" in a spec would be kinda retarded 11:22:14 oooooooooooooooo 11:22:32 i think i'm done, need to do some shopping 11:22:55 tusho: if you wanna know more about the actual language, i'd of course love to explain :P 11:23:08 heh 11:23:29 hmm 11:23:41 now what if you want to call a state 11:23:55 perhaps every variable should implicitly be a stack :))) 11:24:02 so you could just d 11:24:03 o 11:24:08 state 1: 11:24:13 something here 11:24:16 state 2: 11:24:33 condition => push state; state 3 11:24:36 state 3: 11:24:40 condition => pop state 11:24:49 although as always, i don't do keywords 11:24:52 so prolly < and > 11:24:59 as prefix operators 11:25:23 oklopol: maybe you should do a lang with some keywords 11:25:23 just to see 11:25:31 maybe it's awesome 11:25:32 well there's straw 11:25:36 it has a lot of them. 11:25:42 although you can't see that from the example 11:26:21 but in this language, i don't want any keywords, as the user should be able to assume everything that's ascii is either their own, or defined fully outside the language 11:26:38 because otherwise there's three separate things a lowercase string can represent 11:27:39 anyway, in oklotalk, doing A!Field yields a reference, so you *can* pass fields around 11:27:48 well 11:28:07 you can't pass !FieldName around :P 11:28:10 well actually 11:28:16 {_!FieldName} 11:29:54 pixles or pixels? what is the correct spelling 11:30:03 pixel 11:30:11 oklopol, in plural too? 11:30:15 pixels 11:30:18 thanks 11:30:31 although i use the alternative form pixulos 11:30:50 oklopol: pixelli 11:30:59 actually las pixulas 11:31:14 with a mexican accent 11:32:14 Pixies. 11:32:44 Deewiant, there? 11:33:27 Deewiant, in TOYS, should L wrap? 11:37:15 beware 5 lines of paste 11:37:15 variable stacks: 11:37:18 Variables can be used as stacks. This is done as Var< < In a statement with multiple pops, or pops and normal value retrievals, all < refer to the value under that, Var's value after the statement. Var can thus only be popped once in a statement. 11:37:31 tusho: opinion, please 11:37:36 hm wot 11:37:38 * tusho reads 11:37:41 good, good 11:37:42 * AnMaster reads too 11:37:59 yeah anyone can read, i just assume tusho has the most energy to care :P 11:38:06 well seems good 11:38:07 this is usually the case 11:38:36 i have 0 energy oklopol 11:38:37 i don't want many such side-effects in expressions that would require an explicit evaluation order 11:38:42 your stuff is interesting enough, though 11:38:44 AnMaster: what's L 11:38:53 L ('corner') works like ' except it picks up the cell to the "left" of the IP's line and does not skip over anything. (Historians may note that this works like "Get Left Hand" did in Befunge-97.) The cell to the "left" of the IP is the IP's position, plus its delta rotated -90 degrees about the Z axis (a la [) 11:38:56 yay i'm interesting :)) 11:38:58 anyway 11:39:01 Deewiant, that one 11:39:23 Deewiant, for that matter, should ' wrap? 11:39:28 depends on your view of Funge-Space I guess 11:39:50 actually i think it's fully side-effect free, unless you consider the cases where you call a function outside the Ob environment, and that one has side-effects 11:39:53 I think the principle is that the program is in a void surrounded by spaces 11:40:05 and thus if you grab something off the edge it's a space 11:40:15 because you can't really make any functions... although perhaps you should... not sure 11:40:26 and only if you actually move in the direction of an edge would you wrap 11:40:42 it's somewhat debatable since the spec isn't clear about it, but I think that's the intent 11:40:42 hrrm I think ccbi may wrap on TOYS L 11:40:46 and I'm not sure what CCBI does 11:40:59 at least i'm not going to add anything like that, or methods, before they're needed 11:41:08 since the spec isn't unambiguous about it I don't really care 11:41:52 it'd be too much work to rethink a way in which everything works properly 11:44:01 Deewiant, btw how would you do bitwise operations in Funge without using any fingerprints? 11:44:14 say, bitwise xor or bitwise and 11:44:57 x & 1 is the same as x % 2 11:45:11 yes true but what about other masks than that? 11:45:21 just iterate 11:45:24 x >> 1 is x / 2 11:45:57 so if you want x & 1101 do x % 2, then x / 4, x & 2, x / 2, x % 2 11:57:04 hmm 11:57:46 you can easily do addition recursively by toying with carries, given binary and & xor & bitshift 11:57:52 can you do it the other way around 11:58:06 with like + and * 11:58:16 A + B = (A ^ B) + (A & B) * 2 11:58:20 clearly 11:58:41 so we get (A ^ B) = A + B - (A & B) * 2, now can you do & with ^ and * or something? 12:01:10 hmm... i have an idea 12:04:10 damn, doesn't work 12:06:59 beh... 12:07:15 Deewiant, what about x xor y? 12:14:59 multiplication 12:15:08 or just if 12:15:19 it's trivial if you first cut into a list of bits 12:16:50 Deewiant, I think a C function ffi in cfunge would be quite doable 12:17:03 I have read docs on libffi and it doesn't see too hard 12:17:11 just need to figure out how to interface it with befunge 12:18:30 you befunge people are mad :P 12:18:48 oklopol, well intercal already got something even worse 12:18:53 it's C FFI is worse 12:18:58 way worse 12:19:08 while mine would be quite sane in fact 12:20:45 blergh, libffi can't currently call variable argument functions 12:25:10 i don't mean the C extension, just the fact your constantly talking about it :P 12:27:01 oklopol, hm? 12:27:08 I'm writing some specs for said fingerprint now 12:32:12 hm 12:32:15 how to handle pointers? 12:32:27 marshaling structs will be hard 12:33:41 say char** 12:52:23 char** 12:52:59 char** 12:53:28 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 12:57:02 Slereah2: do it 13:02:17 -!- Corun has joined. 13:08:21 ... 13:08:22 haha 13:08:55 does anyone want to read my draft at specs? It is likely to contain contradictions, so please point them out! 13:09:12 http://rafb.net/p/u5HsHE34.html 13:09:23 oklopol, tusho, Deewiant ^ 13:09:35 AnMaster: not a perfect time, sorry. 13:09:39 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:09:42 hm ok 13:11:25 I think I managed what is needed to handle about everthing, and if not it could call malloc amd memcpy from inside befunge to construct more advanced structures and pointers 13:15:01 -!- RedDak has joined. 13:15:08 int ID of function (from F). 13:15:13 from F? not R? 13:15:25 eh R 13:15:28 was a typo 13:15:43 oklopol, I renamed F to R 13:16:20 oklopol, issue fixed in http://rafb.net/p/sCTJCz33.html 13:17:04 thought so, as the inconsistence was present in the latter part too 13:17:05 oooooooooo 13:18:20 oklopol, what do you mean with that "oooooooooo"? 13:18:31 oh, nothing. 13:18:38 anyway, looks okay. 13:18:58 -!- olsner has joined. 13:19:03 :) 13:19:45 now I just want Deewiant, maybe ais if he gets here, and tusho to look at it 13:19:53 Deewiant, tusho: http://rafb.net/p/sCTJCz33.html 13:19:56 although befunge isn't exactly that great with, err, id's 13:20:12 oklopol, oh? REFC already does that 13:20:19 is there like a variable fingerprint? i mean, so that you'd have a unary space for storing shit 13:20:24 it's just a handle that is stored somewhere 13:20:35 refc? 13:20:39 not refc 13:20:41 REFC 13:20:46 oklopol: refcount 13:20:54 ais will get here, AnMaster 13:20:55 it's just 1pm 13:21:03 you're being mislead by the fact i was here at 11am 13:21:04 what's refcount have to do with anything? 13:21:04 :P 13:21:05 tusho, oklopol : http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/library/REFC.html 13:21:08 instead of 4pm 13:21:11 not refcount 13:21:28 oklopol, the id list will work the same here 13:22:27 i mean, if you load a library, and load a function out of it, you have to pass around that function id in order to call it, right? 13:23:33 oklopol, yes indeed 13:23:39 you could store it in some cell 13:23:43 p/g intructions 13:23:47 instructions* 13:24:03 well yeah, but those are a bit bothersome in more than 2-ary funges 13:24:31 maybe, but FILE fingerprint does the same 13:24:32 http://web.archive.org/web/20020816190021/http://homer.span.ch/~spaw1088/funge.html#file 13:24:36 i want a n-ary funge where codespace is defined with graphica 13:24:47 huh? 13:24:52 btw. solved the problem of infinite structures i had with graphica 13:24:57 AnMaster: do you know graphica? 13:25:07 don't google 13:25:08 GRAPHICA PSOX ESCO TRDS 13:25:15 the best #esoteric memes, and one non-meme 13:25:18 :P 13:25:19 spot the non-meme! 13:25:19 oklopol, I think I heard the name before 13:25:26 well it's my graph definition language 13:25:36 Correct! The non-meme is "TRDS"! 13:25:48 tusho: do i win if i knew that? 13:25:54 yes 13:25:57 nice. 13:25:58 anyway 13:26:00 errr 13:26:15 does anyone know the problem with infinite structures in graphica? 13:26:24 oklopol, anyway there is no sane way to do this except IDs 13:27:04 basically, graphica is about creating nodes, and giving them unique id's withing the namespace given to the construction, and connecting nodes to each other by either recursion, or predefined id 13:27:14 AnMaster: i know 13:27:18 that's why i asked 13:27:23 err 13:27:30 "is there like a variable fingerprint? i mean, so that you'd have a unary space for storing shit" 13:27:46 so, the problem with infinite structures is as follows 13:27:52 let's say you have an infinite grid 13:28:25 ah 13:28:31 I see what you mean 13:28:42 no I don't think a variable fingerprint exists 13:28:55 it's trivial to define, just Grid = Node 0 0; Node X Y :: [] <-> Node X+1 Y <-> Node X-1 Y <-> Node X Y+1 <-> Node X Y-1 13:29:14 so, basically, just saying create all nodes to this one, and connect to them 13:29:16 whoops 13:29:24 *Grid = Node 0 0; Node X Y :: [X Y] <-> Node X+1 Y <-> Node X-1 Y <-> Node X Y+1 <-> Node X Y-1 13:29:36 :: [X Y] names the cell 13:29:45 right 13:29:50 and? 13:29:59 so when you get to [1 1] twice, you don't actually make it twice 13:30:04 now the infinite problem 13:30:06 there is not 13:30:08 in general 13:30:25 a way to know whether something will later on make a connection between, say, [0 0] and itself 13:30:41 so 13:30:43 if you mean how to represent arbitrary vectors for n-funge where n may change at runtime you would need 13:31:01 currently a *funge program using vectors at all can only be written for a specific funge 13:31:02 you'd have to generate all the infinite cells before you could enter [0 0] 13:31:05 so you'd know what it links to 13:31:11 http://forums.xkcd.com/download/file.php?id=5799 13:31:15 oklopol, eh? 13:31:43 now, the obvious solution is to detect when n-ary lists are being used as id's, as in this case, and just check what directions recursive calls can move 13:31:58 in this case, the moves are [[1 0] [-1 0] [0 1] [0 -1]] 13:32:11 these calls, that is: Node X+1 Y <-> Node X-1 Y <-> Node X Y+1 <-> Node X Y-1 13:32:29 it's trivial to see there are no jumps, although this can't be done in general 13:32:30 tusho, that looks like a variant of a "main page" strip 13:32:31 ? 13:32:33 now the clever part 13:32:52 AnMaster: yes, it's from the 'make xkcd slightly worse' thread 13:32:57 the original has a flash of perl and no crash. 13:33:03 ( instead of ) 13:33:03 if there's only connections of the form ->, after some point in the recursion, you can always stop evaluation of the graph there 13:33:09 (And he doesn't hit the monitor.) 13:33:11 tusho, yes indeed, link to that thread? 13:33:19 http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22741&st=0&sk=t&sd=a 13:33:30 because in that case, you know something may later on link to [0 0], but you know [0 0] can never be added an away-from link 13:33:32 oklopol, sorry but you totally lost me quite early on and I couldn't catch up 13:33:36 :) 13:33:38 you are too smart 13:34:06 "AnMaster: if you mean how to represent arbitrary vectors for n-funge where n may change at runtime you would need " <<< i'd prolly go for a larger change in semantics 13:34:18 oklopol, oh? 13:34:28 so smart, so smart, nah, i'm just bad at explaining. 13:34:41 it would just be the number of elements followed by the values in each dimension 13:34:42 where did you drop? i can try to rephrase, this is simple stuff 13:35:00 like: null terminated string vs. a string prefixed by a length value 13:35:06 AnMaster: i get it, it's just i'd most likely have lists. 13:35:09 *Grid = Node 0 0; Node X Y :: [X Y] <-> Node X+1 Y <-> Node X-1 Y <-> Node X Y+1 <-> Node X Y-1 13:35:10 there 13:35:13 oh, right 13:35:25 well there i assumed you know graphica syntax. 13:35:28 oklopol, I don't 13:35:29 smart? i doubt that. 13:35:40 i'll explain, should be simple to grasp 13:35:43 oh 13:35:44 k 13:35:50 that line was just the correction of the earlier one 13:35:53 but yeah, so 13:35:57 Grid = Node 0 0 13:36:00 this is just 13:36:16 a grid? 13:36:19 "when you create a grid, actually create the Node 0 0, and return a reference to it" 13:36:28 this is a graph definition 13:36:30 now 13:37:07 hm? 13:37:26 "Node X Y :: [X Y] <-> Node X+1 Y <-> Node X-1 Y <-> Node X Y+1 <-> Node X Y-1" == "to create a node @ X, Y, create an id entry to the global node id table for it as [X Y], then create all nodes next to it, and interconnect this with all of them" 13:37:49 a bit more complex, ":: tag" just globally names the cell 13:38:12 "<-> smth" creates the node smth, and connects this to it, with a two-way connection 13:38:17 you do know what a graph is? 13:38:21 that's kinda important 13:38:21 :P 13:38:27 yes I know what a graph is 13:38:33 good, good 13:38:38 however that doesn't mean i understand it always 13:38:45 well 13:38:49 but well I think I get it now 13:38:56 okay. 13:38:58 oklopol, are you not defining a quadtree it seems? 13:39:05 quadtree? 13:39:08 what's that :) 13:39:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadtree 13:39:21 ah 13:39:22 oh no. 13:39:24 actually no 13:39:32 that's very different 13:39:33 see 13:39:42 you are defining something like each cell is connected to each other 13:39:46 so not a tree 13:39:59 the thing about graphica is, the seemingly treeform structure actually becomes an arbitrary graph, because you can name cells. 13:40:33 and yeah 13:40:40 i'm doing exactly that 13:40:44 it's a 2d grid actually 13:41:04 right 13:41:14 oklopol, all of it have to be allocated right now? 13:41:21 or is it allocated as needed 13:41:30 well 13:41:32 (remember I'm a C programmer, I think low level) 13:41:38 that's exactly the infinite structure problem 13:41:43 as you can clearly see there 13:41:46 there is no size limit 13:41:52 oklopol, I would store it in some sort of hash map 13:42:02 currently, my implementation does not allow infinite structures 13:42:14 and evaluates it all right away 13:42:18 yeah, i do that too. 13:42:39 btw for an n-ary hypercube http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/graphica.txt 13:42:55 err not -ary. 13:42:58 n-dimensional 13:42:59 because you seem to define this: 13:43:01 struct node { 13:43:01 size_t datasize; 13:43:01 void * data; 13:43:01 struct node * up; 13:43:01 struct node * left; 13:43:02 struct node * right; 13:43:04 struct node * down; 13:43:06 } 13:43:10 yes. 13:43:26 oklopol, way easier to read than "Node X Y :: [X Y] <-> Node X+1 Y <-> Node X-1 Y <-> Node X Y+1 <-> Node X Y-1" 13:43:26 that is what i do 13:43:27 :P 13:43:39 not really, if you format it correctly 13:43:47 oklopol, well for a C programmer ;P 13:43:49 but now i'm getting a deja vu we already had this discussion :P 13:43:55 we did? 13:44:00 well anyway, that C definition isn't exactly the same 13:44:05 no? 13:44:09 if you write that, the actual graph is not generated 13:44:12 that's the whole point 13:44:15 oh wait you can access by index 13:44:18 or? 13:44:30 well yes, [X Y] will contain that object 13:44:32 so you need a lookup table to find the node in fact 13:44:36 there is a global id table as i said 13:44:44 or you need to go from 0,0 downwards then sideways 13:44:51 which would be slow 13:45:05 well, in this case all id's a lists of length 2, so it will make a 2d array. 13:45:08 oklopol, anyway this is far from an optimal data structure to store funge code in 13:45:11 *id's are 13:45:16 you want a hash map 13:45:23 that allows negative indexes too 13:45:34 because -1,-1 is valid in Befunge98 13:45:38 completely valid 13:45:42 duh 13:45:49 "duh"? 13:45:51 [-1 -1] would also be generated by that 13:45:56 ah 13:45:56 well duh, why wouldn't it be 13:46:02 um 13:46:05 ok 13:46:24 anyway, you can store into a 2d grid even with negatives 13:47:15 either by reallocating, or having multiple grids all extending to different directions 13:47:30 but this is not the programmer's problem 13:47:45 anyway, that structure of yours 13:47:58 is nothing but a thingie, that takes 4 id's and connects to them 13:48:06 yes it needs more code 13:48:07 you can do that with graphica too 13:48:10 to allocate and set it yp 13:48:13 up* 13:48:17 Node A B C D <-> A <-> B <-> C <-> D 13:48:28 that's not the actual form of course 13:48:30 i''ll whoe 13:48:32 *show 13:48:35 *i'll 13:48:41 however no way I would use that type of data structure for befunge, I would use a hashmap of some sort 13:49:14 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p446352642.txt 13:49:22 a node is something that connects to four given things 13:49:33 i'd say that's quite a lot prettier than the C thingie 13:49:36 but whatever 13:49:43 err, that type of data structure? 13:49:52 graphica has nothing to do with computers, man. 13:49:58 it's a language for defining graphs. 13:50:23 so you can't exactly talk about structures, if you're referring to physical representation 13:50:35 graphica does not define what structure should be used 13:51:32 just like Ob is just a way to add declarative, intelligent events to some preset external functionality, graphica is just a way to define arbitrary graphs for use in some other lower level program. 13:51:51 hm 13:52:19 "preset"? scratch preset. 13:52:36 well preset for the current use of the language, but just confusing there 13:53:02 -!- atsampso1 has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:54:00 currently, you can't have values for the nodes, partly because haven't decided on the operator for adding them :P 13:54:17 = is redirection, :: is tagging, <-, <-> and -> are connections 13:54:28 what should be "setting the value of" 13:54:59 perhaps >> could be redirection and = could set the value 13:55:07 although i'd have to change the cube 13:56:48 -!- atsampson has joined. 13:57:36 AnMaster: anyway, this is what it looks like with newlines and tabbing: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p466261364.txt 13:57:48 i'd say that's pretty darn pretty 13:57:52 don't you think so, atsampson? 13:57:58 hm 13:58:32 oklopol: in a purely aesthetic sense, certainly 13:58:43 atsampson: see a problem with the semantics? 13:58:55 this should define a 2d grid infinite in all directions 13:59:07 what's the language? 13:59:12 graphica 13:59:21 it's mine, and the infinity part is not yet implemented 13:59:40 just realized today how it can be done easily, made the language ages ago 14:00:45 oklopol: do you have a description of it somewhere? 14:01:18 oklopol, yes where are the specs 14:01:24 i have one that's slightly outdated somewhere 14:01:27 well 14:01:45 just lacks the infinite structures really, and that's basically an implementation detail as it doesn't change the language 14:02:02 hmmhmm, just wonder *where* i have it 14:03:49 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p123363511.txt 14:04:08 i was too lazy to write a declarative explanation of the semantics :P 14:05:58 the two-dimensional grid in those examples is much less pretty, but should be grokkable 14:06:06 yes, that's neat :) 14:07:04 do you need the [] in the tag in your short example? 14:07:10 hmm 14:07:14 probably not 14:07:26 in the node example, no i actually wouldn't 14:07:35 it should be semantically equivalent either way 14:07:54 there were no lists actually when that spec was written 14:08:30 i have them now, although functional programming without first-class functions sucks ass :P 14:08:34 so 14:09:11 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/graphica.txt 14:09:15 as you can see, wtf. 14:09:36 not that it's that complicated, it's just very hard to read 14:09:48 and there isn't really a way to abstract it further 14:10:18 basically the point is, err 14:10:37 you create the node [0 0 0... 0] 14:10:57 where 0 exists n times for the number of dimensions n given 14:11:36 you then do some weird redirection shit to get each node where one zero has been changed [] 14:11:39 *-[] 14:11:51 and repeat, until all elements in the list are ones 14:12:18 should extend that to an arbitrary-size arbitrary-dimentional one, shouldn't be hard raelly 14:12:21 *really 14:13:20 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:14:00 actually i'm not sure it's that obvious :P 14:14:27 if anyone wants to give it an attempt, go for it 14:14:48 although i doubt anyone even gets the hypercube :) i wouldn't 14:16:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:16:29 ais523, hi 14:16:48 hi tusho 14:16:50 I'm pretty sure I won that time 14:16:52 agh!!!! 14:16:56 ais523++ 14:16:57 ais523: well, I've been here since 11am 14:17:00 so I wasn't paying attention 14:17:04 I did plan to get you, though 14:17:05 so what? 14:17:07 tusho: that's early for you 14:17:07 you still lost 14:17:10 yes, it is 14:17:15 i normally get on ~4pm 14:17:20 i decided not to. :) 14:17:21 ais523, tusho, Deewiant: http://rafb.net/p/sCTJCz33.html 14:17:26 ais523, please check if it makes sense 14:18:54 * AnMaster pokes ais523 14:18:56 AnMaster: I would have expected P and R to be combined 14:19:01 ais523, hm 14:19:03 maybe 14:19:04 and no need to poke me, I'm trying to read it... 14:19:15 ais523: did i mention the infinite graph problem with graphica to *you*, ever? :P 14:19:32 ais523, could be a good idea, however I'm not sure 14:19:39 oklopol: I don't think so 14:19:43 damn 14:20:06 well i'll be non-graphica when explaining, you might enjoy the concept anyway 14:20:26 AnMaster: "doesn't must end with a \0 byte."? 14:20:40 err typo 14:20:50 apart from that, seems reasonable 14:20:51 remove doesn't 14:20:57 "This one must end with a \0 byte." 14:21:37 ais523, as I can't think of a sane way to say that some other parameter or return value contains the size of that one 14:22:07 AnMaster: why not use 0gnirts like everything else in Befunge? 14:22:11 or are you moving away from that? 14:22:28 length-prefix seems like it could be hard to maintain, especially on a stack which can only be edited from the top 14:22:30 ais523, yes I am in the funge108 standard too 14:22:43 ais523, the length is stored on top after all 14:22:47 ais523: the graphica way to create a graph is to create kind of a tree, so that when you call a function F, that function chooses an id to itself, then calls some set of functions that themselves make nodes, and return their id's, then F takes these id's, and connects with them 14:22:49 IFFI uses 0gnirts 14:22:59 so you get a graph from the recursion 14:23:04 ais523, and for here, well, char* types can be used to pass other stuff than strings, like say structs 14:23:04 ais523: with me? 14:23:11 oklopol: I'm not quite sure I understand 14:23:14 that you can later marshall yourself 14:23:17 ais523, if you see what I mean 14:23:21 darn, i'll show you the simplest example 14:23:40 AnMaster: sort of, couldn't you have a separate string and char* though? Then you could do C++ as well 14:24:02 ais523, uh? 14:24:13 AnMaster: C++ has a separate string type in the standard libraries 14:24:17 ais523, how the heck would I marshall to std:string from inside C code? 14:24:25 there is no way I'm adding C++ code to cfunge 14:24:33 AnMaster: by using C++ code to link them, not in cfunge itself just in a linking module 14:24:46 just like there's INTERCALness in ecto_b98.c in IFFI 14:24:46 well I'd rather not 14:24:50 but not part of cfunge 14:24:51 hm 14:25:10 ais523: 14:25:13 you construct a std::string 14:25:15 from a char* 14:25:22 tusho: yes, you can, and vice versa 14:25:22 ais523, I plan this fingerprint to be part of the official cfunge distribution, but optional at compile time (as libffi can be hard to install on some distros) 14:25:23 so he's pretty much right 14:25:40 basically libffi is both a part of gcc installed when gcj is, and a separate library, both can 14:25:44 can't* be installed at once 14:25:59 on distros like gentoo this cause a slight issue as you may see 14:26:47 I'm not sure I understand libffi at all, IFFI uses compile-time linking like everything else has done for years 14:26:51 so optional at compile time, I'll use it if it exists (with an option to disable it anyway) 14:27:00 ais523, libffi resolves at runtime 14:27:17 AnMaster: does that require both programs to be running beforehand? 14:27:24 ais523, the L and R would basically call dlopen() and dlsym() 14:27:26 ais523, eh? 14:27:31 it is for library functions 14:27:34 ok 14:27:49 ais523: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p213633331.txt makes a graph representing a ring 14:27:51 ais523: libffi just lets you do things like 14:27:53 first you dlopen(), then dlsym(), then use libffi to marshal the data to the ABI 14:28:01 foo = mylib("abc.so"); callfunc(foo, "hello_world", 2) 14:28:04 ais523, like "what thing goes in what register" 14:28:05 not that trivial 14:28:07 but you know 14:28:11 it's basically just dlopen/dlsym 14:28:18 tusho, yes + stuff to handle the ABI 14:28:25 so #node 0 connects to #node 1 connects to ... #node n, which is tagged as #node 0, so it becomes a ring 14:28:51 asdasdasdadsd, i want someone to understand the way to resolve infinite structures :D 14:29:13 ais523: read/got that? 14:29:24 not read it yet 14:29:27 I was reading email 14:29:28 let me read it now 14:29:41 first line has a typo s/the graph a node/a node/ 14:29:57 ais523, but yes I guess making R and P one function could make sense 14:30:11 oklopol: what there is causing edges to be made between nodes? 14:30:13 except that there would be a lot of arguments in one go to keep track of 14:30:18 ais523: -> 14:30:23 it means 14:30:34 ais523, rather 2 functions with 5 arguments each than 1 with 10 ;) 14:30:40 "-> A" connect this cell to the cell A 14:31:11 oklopol, would <-> be a double linked list then? 14:31:17 AnMaster: yes 14:31:21 well not list, could be anything of course 14:31:22 you can also do <- 14:31:38 yeah, in this case it would be a double linked list 14:31:42 *doubly 14:31:48 do you name the connections? 14:31:53 no, not currently 14:32:06 so you can't have one called up and another down? 14:32:07 or such 14:32:17 that's going to be added 14:32:18 /*@maynotreturn@*/ uint32_t ick_dounop(char*, uint32_t, uint32_t, int, unsigned long, unsigned long, unsigned long, ick_type32(*)(ick_type32), ick_type32(*)(ick_type32), ick_type32(*)(ick_type32), void(*)(ick_type32, void(*)()), void(*)(ick_type32, void(*)()), void(*)(ick_type32, void(*)()), char*); 14:32:19 or one called previous and another next, and a third down 14:32:21 but not yet possible 14:32:21 oklopol, ^ 14:32:26 -!- olsner has joined. 14:32:28 yep, that would be nice 14:32:30 because that is one useful one 14:32:37 that's a real function prototype from C-INTERCAL; as you see, I don't care how many arguments a function has if it needs them all 14:32:38 could be used to represent brainfuck 14:32:41 a loop has a down 14:32:48 and especially if i add traversing, it would be useful 14:32:48 pointing to the code of the loop 14:32:53 something like that 14:32:55 yeah 14:33:08 hmm... 14:33:09 ais523, ARGH 14:33:13 let's try parsing brainfuck :-) 14:33:20 ais523, typedef each type of function pointer before 14:33:25 that makes it a bit simpler to read 14:33:50 oklopol, for speed you'd want to collapse a [-] into a "set cell to zero" 14:33:59 AnMaster: You are talking about a compiler that has a part made of idiomatic perl written in c 14:34:03 why would he make it easier to read? Honestly. 14:34:05 and +++ to "3x +" 14:34:07 AnMaster: it was worse before, comp.lang.c suggested removing the params from void(*)() to get rid of some cells 14:34:17 ais523, heh 14:34:22 s/cells/casts/ 14:34:46 tusho, well making it easier to read would really be a strange action right? 14:34:58 tusho, so in a round-about way it could be esoteric ;P 14:35:03 AnMaster: heh 14:35:41 tusho, I believe it is justify almost any action as esoteric in a way similar to this 14:35:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:36:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:36:31 ais523, what was the last you saw? 14:36:44 tusho, well making it easier to read would really be a strange action right? 14:36:55 tusho, so in a round-about way it could be esoteric ;P 14:36:55 AnMaster: heh 14:36:55 tusho, I believe it is justify almost any action as esoteric in a way similar to this 14:39:54 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:40:10 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 14:43:25 ais523, actually I can see reasons to not combine R and P 14:43:34 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p532125636.txt <<< okay, i added named returns, as graphica doesn't have anything for that 14:43:44 1) not combining makes error handling easier, you know a bit more why it reversed 14:43:53 2) tracking all parameters as I said above 14:44:17 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:44:29 Nodefunctioncall Arg1 Arg2.. Argn ?? Ret1 Ret2 Ret3, although ? in the file 14:44:50 oh btw fingerprint will be CFFI 14:44:59 Ret1.. Retn now become free variables that the function call should set using !! 14:45:11 thus getting a prolog-like named return 14:45:11 AnMaster: so your fingerprint equals my handprint, but I don't think that will cause problems 14:45:39 indeed it shouldn't 14:45:47 and with funge108 it will get an url 14:46:00 but cfunge doesn't fully support loading by URI yet 14:46:17 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:46:20 ais523, oh btw you will need to add a library when you build the last cfunge for the ffungi 14:46:23 -lncurses 14:46:32 ah, ok 14:46:45 ais523: wait, what fingerprint 14:46:50 tusho: IFFI 14:46:51 (name) 14:46:53 ah 14:46:58 why is AnMaster calling it IFFI 14:47:01 no 14:47:01 why not CFFI 14:47:02 I'm not 14:47:04 ... 14:47:05 but the clash is on CFFI 14:47:07 duh 14:47:11 oh btw fingerprint will be CFFI 14:47:12 .... 14:47:14 ais523: but yours is IFFI 14:47:15 my fingerprint's IFFI, AnMaster's is CFFI, my handprint is CFFI 14:47:18 see 14:47:20 why is your handprint CFFI 14:47:22 that makes no sense 14:47:22 hmm 14:47:26 it should be IFFI 14:47:28 tusho: cfunge for intercal 14:47:34 it should still be IFFI, ais523 14:47:34 if it was IFFI it would have nothing to do with cfunge 14:47:51 uh IFFI is to do with cfunge. 14:47:52 which I think is wrong, it should at least share some of the letters as it's effectively the same program 14:47:54 * AnMaster gets some popcorn and watches the fight 14:48:01 AnMaster: shut up 14:48:05 tusho: no, IFFI's for Intercal-like Foreign Function Interface 14:48:11 which has nothing intrinsically to do with cfunge 14:48:12 ais523: i thought it was just for cfunge 14:48:14 OK 14:48:20 that's as it should be, handprint = interp, fingerprint = semantic 14:48:23 s/$/s/ 14:48:27 tusho, btw I got an idea, if you want TRDS in cfunge, make a patch 14:48:39 AnMaster: like I want to hack your crazy code 14:48:42 and if not, just shut up about it 14:48:43 AnMaster: but it would change every single line of your program, probably 14:48:47 nobody would want to touch that with a 10 foot pole 14:48:52 p.s. TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS 14:48:54 ais523, yeah not saying I would accept it 14:49:05 ;Å 14:49:06 er 14:49:08 ;P* 14:50:18 okay i fixed quite a lot, the first one was total crap 14:50:19 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p251463225.txt 14:50:23 luckily no one read it :P 14:50:27 anyway, that's a brainfuck parser 14:50:33 interesting 14:50:34 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 14:50:39 should work now, gave it a but more thought 14:50:49 (::) is the current node id 14:50:51 oklopol, where is an implementation so I can test it? 14:50:53 because i'm not naming these 14:50:56 for graphica 14:50:56 oklopol: so it's basically recursion, but making a graph as you go along 14:51:04 ais523: yes, except there's a but 14:51:06 hmm... that looks like it might compile into Prolog nicely 14:51:14 you can give id's to things 14:51:23 and connect to id's instead of calling a function 14:51:28 so you can do stuff like my ring there 14:51:29 oklopol, no implementation? 14:51:44 AnMaster: there is one, but i've added a few constructs to make this work 14:51:51 hm ok 14:52:01 (::) doesn't exist in it, ?? doesn't exist in it, and !! doesn't exist in it 14:52:04 specifically 14:52:14 ...and at the end of the day this may win in beauty, but C based implementation will win in speed... 14:52:20 as usual... 14:52:27 (no offence meant) 14:52:43 well i don't really see your point, but yeah, that is prolly the case 14:52:56 except in C, you'd prolly not parse at all, as it's just so fucking complicated :P 14:53:04 hm? 14:53:16 oklopol, brainfuck is not very complex to parse 14:53:43 you just load it into a tree, doing some on the fly optimizing (combining ++-- and such, >>>>, [-] and some more) 14:54:01 AnMaster: Interesting esolang! By the way, I wouldn't write any serious programs in it, because it's slower than C. Wow. 14:54:10 tusho, not saying that 14:54:12 :D 14:54:23 tusho, erlang is slower than C, yet erlang got other strengths 14:54:42 same for a lot of other non-esoteric languages 14:54:46 it is all about what you want to do 14:54:48 well i would say graphica is by far the easiest way to make a graph. 14:55:05 i simply don't know any notation nearly as nice for it 14:55:17 well that is it's strength then 14:55:22 oklopol: I must spec up eodermdrome some time, it has an even nicer (or at least more eso) notation 14:55:34 tell me 14:55:45 although you can't specify graphs with more than 26 nodes at a time, that should be a clue, but you can combine them to make larger graphs 14:55:54 however I'm just saying, you can't get much more faster than a good C compiler, asm if you are *really good* at it, but I couldn't write faster asm than C 14:56:10 simply because most of the time the C compiler generates quite good code 14:56:14 oklopol: just a string of letters, each letter represents a node, adjacent letters represent arcs between nodes 14:56:18 thus eodermdrome = K_5 14:57:07 ais523, wait, you mean it is like ascii art? 14:57:11 that could be a nice idea 14:58:13 +--------c 14:58:13 | ^ 14:58:13 | | 14:58:13 +->a<--->b 14:58:27 not sure how to handle crossing lines 14:58:56 also you couldn't have more than 4 connections I guess 14:59:28 ais523: can't use non-alphabetical? 14:59:29 (incidentally, that word was invented for that purpose, and not by me) 14:59:29 should be 255 14:59:29 ais523: that doesn't sound very extendable 14:59:29 err 14:59:29 256 14:59:30 oklopol: well you use it to specify bits of graphs, and build them out of that 14:59:30 can you show me a ring? 14:59:30 oklopol: abcdefga 14:59:30 can you show me a parametrizable 14:59:30 one 14:59:31 oklopol: you'd have to get input somehow, eodermdrome's a bit of a tarpit 14:59:31 and you'd build it from a small ring by making it bigger 14:59:32 for instance you could start with abcdec 14:59:32 anyway that's the basic idea of graphica too, i will have ways to do that exact thing, except i might not have that nice a notation 14:59:32 well 14:59:32 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:59:33 and have a rule edcbca edcbcfa 14:59:33 perhaps i could let you use eodermdrome as a kinda syntactical extension for shorthands, you'd get your name on the credits :P 14:59:33 which adds an extra element to the ring, at the 'tail' I put there to give a starting point 14:59:33 hmm 14:59:33 rings of various sizes are one way to store data 14:59:33 also, it's a rewriting lang 14:59:34 and ideally you use it to write poetry, like in Haify 14:59:34 s/Haify/Haifu/ 14:59:34 ah rewriting. 14:59:34 yeah that's nice 14:59:34 also, the initial string that's rewritten from wouldn't be user-specifiable, but instead thequickbrownfoxjumpsoverthelazydog 14:59:34 well, the graph that that turns into 14:59:40 wtf, I lagged a lot 14:59:50 AnMaster: no, it isn't like ASCII art, you can use a letter more than once and it refers to the same node each time 15:00:03 i.e. eodermdrome has 4 connections to the e, but eodermdromes would have 5 15:00:13 " ais523: can't use non-alphabetical?" and " well, the graph that that turns into" came at the same second 15:00:26 must have been some really bad lag there for a while 15:00:36 AnMaster: probably your connection went strange for a while, that happens to me every now and then too 15:00:43 what 15:00:46 i didn't see tusho say that 15:00:55 i did 15:00:56 oh 15:00:56 :p 15:00:57 oklopol, quite a bit ago 15:00:58 up there 15:04:26 actually it wasn't my connection ais523 I think 15:04:35 I think it is between freenode servers 15:04:43 or was rather 15:05:05 ais523, it isn't ctcp pong... 15:05:07 * Ping reply from ais523: 1.32 second(s) 15:05:10 I got that before 15:05:19 AnMaster: well, why can't I send you a CTCP pong when you ping me/ 15:05:24 s/\//?/ 15:05:24 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 15:05:25 no reason 15:05:33 ais523, except it contradicts the specs 15:05:37 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:05:39 and stop spamming tusho 15:05:43 ctcp has no specs for messages 15:05:45 it's extensible 15:05:56 yay: 15:05:57 abcdec with edcbca edcbcfa, can you show me how that actually evolves? 15:06:07 can b represent multiple nodes? 15:06:14 ! CTCP flood from tusho, automatically putting on ignore for 5 minutes 15:06:17 hehee 15:06:21 awesome 15:06:21 oklopol: the letters only matter within an expression 15:06:24 can AnMaster see this 15:06:26 tusho, ctcp ignore only 15:06:28 ais523: i know 15:06:29 aww 15:06:30 not other types of messages 15:06:35 can you show the evolution? 15:06:37 * tusho can AnMaster see this 15:06:39 did you see that AnMaster 15:06:41 and each letter only represents one node within an expressoin 15:06:42 yes I did 15:06:57 so abcdec becomes abcdefc becomes abcdefgc and so on 15:07:00 tusho, and now I removed the ignore for other types of CTCP too 15:07:03 forever 15:07:20 you need a more complicated rewrite expression to put bounds on it 15:07:27 but it shouldn't be too hard to do, say, a BCT interpreter 15:07:35 BCT? 15:07:41 bitwise cyclic tag 15:07:44 ah 15:07:47 * AnMaster googles 15:07:51 out of all the langs I know, it's probably the easiest to implement 15:07:56 [[e:Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] 15:08:01 umm... http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitwise_Cyclic_Tag 15:08:18 ais523: iota is easy in languages with good functionality 15:08:39 tusho: this is langs with bad functionality I'm talking about, the langs in which even implementing Brainfuck's a stretch 15:09:12 ais523: but if the initial state is abcdec, then how can it even be matched with edcbca? 15:09:33 wouldn't b represent the de in c -> d -> e -> c then 15:09:50 oklopol: the first expression is a triangle with a two-element tail 15:10:06 whereas the second expression is a Y shape with one side two elements long and the other two one element long 15:10:09 s/element/edge/ 15:10:18 so they match each other 15:10:39 however I got the rewrite expressions a bit wrong, because you can't reuse letters unless they correspond to each other 15:10:46 err 15:11:02 it should be edcbca edfbfga 15:11:09 rebooting, be back soon 15:11:11 -!- ais523 has quit ("rebootin"). 15:11:25 oh, right. got it 15:12:16 simple to write, but takes a sec to actually read 15:12:36 tusho, didn't ais use BCT for that proof he won a lot of money for? 15:12:52 no 15:12:54 i don't think so 15:13:08 what was it then he implemented in said language? 15:13:13 AnMaster: why not read the paper 15:13:21 http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/TM23Proof.pdf 15:13:24 tusho, well iirc it was BCT, but I may be wrong 15:13:31 no 15:14:00 it involves cyclic systems 15:14:01 not bct 15:14:05 ah 15:14:11 well close then 15:14:20 -!- olsner has quit (Connection timed out). 15:14:44 not really. 15:15:07 tusho, two of the words matches ;P 15:15:07 hmm 15:15:10 not sure 15:15:11 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:15:16 "The main part of the proof proceeds by showing that the initial conjecture (conjecture 0, that system 0 can emulate any cyclic tag system for an arbitrary number of steps (and a few extra conditions)) is either 15:15:16 " 15:15:19 ais523: is the cyclic tag in your tm23 proof a BCT 15:15:22 or another cyclic tag 15:15:25 maybe not BCT but a CT at least 15:15:32 ais523: that notation is awesome 15:15:39 hi tusho 15:15:43 tusho: it's just plain cyclic tag 15:15:45 well, it could be either 15:15:47 it doesn't read from source, it compiles it into a crazy representation 15:15:49 and BCT is just one particular notation for CT 15:16:03 ais523: that notation is awesome <-- what one? 15:16:06 ais523: also you link to wolframprize.org 15:16:09 that graph notation 15:16:10 that domain does not go anywhere 15:16:12 did it ever? 15:16:17 tusho: yes, it did 15:16:21 has it gone down? 15:16:24 it used to be the main URL 15:16:27 ais523: WOLFRAM ARE EVIL THEY BREAK URLS 15:16:29 AnMaster: my graph notation, I expect 15:16:33 ah 15:16:41 ais523: i do admit that's a nicer way to represent a certain graph 15:16:48 tusho: the URL works for me 15:16:50 was it ever published in that Complex Systems thing ais523? 15:16:57 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:16:59 tusho: no, it probably will be eventually 15:17:06 but the paper's still being worked out 15:17:06 ah, science 15:17:09 such a fast-moving world 15:17:09 :) 15:17:27 ais523: i love how they link to the mathematica version of the programs right next to your proof 15:17:29 oklopol: your lang's probably better for expressing graph operations than mine, I just wanted a tarpit graph-rewrite lang 15:17:31 like 'PLESAE IGNORE THE PERL' 15:17:38 ais523: there are no graph operations 15:17:54 it's better for representing the actual graph structures 15:18:02 tusho: well the Perl's a factor of N faster than the Mathematica, even though I tried to optimise the Mathematica to a decent speed, I just failed 15:18:07 oklopol: ah, yes 15:18:16 ais523: mathematica is based on term-rewriting 15:18:16 but 15:18:19 that pretty much says it all 15:18:23 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 15:19:12 you could do something like let you define a starting pattern, then have a syntax for doing substitutions n times 15:19:23 this would make something like a ring easy to do 15:19:54 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:19:59 tusho: I know it is, and tried to optimise for it 15:19:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:20:07 -!- Corun has joined. 15:21:06 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:21:37 sorry about that... 15:21:43 [Wed Jul 16 2008] [15:19:08] maybe I should have simulated a linked list; I wonder if {a, {b, {c, {d}}}} is faster to modify in Mathematica than {a, b, c, d}? 15:21:43 [Wed Jul 16 2008] [15:19:26] however in the end I just went with the naive way because all my attempts to modify made things worse 15:22:43 ais523: something like "1ab1 a1b => a1cb N-3" where numbers let you have concrete handles for convenience 15:23:03 yes, that would be more practical (but less tarpitty) 15:23:06 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 15:24:25 ais523: well i'm thinking more in terms of making graph shorthands for graphica atm 15:24:33 you definitely keep yours as it is 15:24:44 why add that number thing when you can just have tails 15:24:56 oklopol: I'd gathered that, just thinking out loud 15:25:03 pure graphs with no extra information are just so goddamn sexy 15:25:21 ais523: well i guess i knew that too, and was just thinking out loud :D 15:25:24 eodermdrome's pretty simple, but I don't have much of an idea how to implement it efficiently 15:25:41 say, I think I can make that strongly-typed lazy self-rewriting language 15:25:42 because I can't think of a decent way to do graph-matching 15:25:49 it requires 'chunking' 15:25:51 but i think it's possible 15:26:11 ais523: yeah, it's a complex subject 15:27:47 ais523: links go both ways? 15:28:08 oklopol: yes, nondirected 15:28:23 although you can direct them by hand using tails and dangling cycles and other little ornaments 15:28:35 true, true, i know graphs. 15:28:49 I think probably the easiest way to program in eodermdrome is to have your data store of large structures with little things hanging off them to provide information and certain types 15:29:27 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:30:13 is there a sort that always uses the optimal amount of swaps? 15:30:47 oklopol: interesting, you're going for writing efficiency rather than reading efficiency, and I don't know 15:30:55 well, there is of course, but I'm not sure if there's a sane one 15:31:08 bogosort can be adapted to always use the optimal amount of swaps 15:31:35 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:33:04 "you're going for writing efficiency rather than reading efficiency" <<< huh? 15:33:19 oklopol: normally sorts try to do the minimum number of comparisons 15:33:28 whereas you're trying to do the minimum amount of writing to memory 15:33:35 or to wherever the data's stored 15:33:38 ah. 15:33:43 well 15:33:59 is there one that always does the optimal amount of reads? 15:34:02 oh, right, ofc not 15:34:20 for a sorted list the optimal amount is 0, so that's kinda trivially impossible 15:36:53 ais523, bogosort? 15:37:11 AnMaster: the original bogosort is to rearrange the data at random, check if it's sorted, if not repeat 15:37:26 however I was thinking of a modified version where you just try all possible permutations to see which one is sorted 15:37:32 ais523, I see, fairly unlikely to be fast 15:37:42 haha 15:37:43 bogosort can fail though 15:37:49 assuming a shite random number generator 15:37:51 what about quicksort? 15:37:55 ais523's would work 15:38:05 AnMaster: no. 15:38:05 AnMaster: it's somewhat faster than bogosort 15:38:21 incidentally, there's an article somewhere on the Internet where some mathematicians wrote a paper about optimising bogosort 15:38:22 ais523, a lot I'd imagine 15:38:36 it still ended up worse than most sane sorting algorithms though 15:38:41 ais523: well it was about a few other pessimal algos too 15:38:52 all were exponential iirc 15:39:24 there is also, of course, quantum bogosort, which will hopefully never be used as it has a large chance of destroying the universe if the many-worlds theorem turns out to be false, or the anthropic principle does 15:39:27 they plotted sorting times for the test cases, sorting lists of up to length 7 :P 15:39:32 but in theory it's the only way to do an O(n) comparison sort 15:39:35 Bogosort is on average O(n × n!) 15:39:40 ais523: anyway bogosort isn't trivial to make optimal in this fashion 15:39:42 according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorting_algorithm 15:39:56 worst is infinite 15:39:56 AnMaster: yep, O(n) to see if it's sorted and you need O(n!) tries on average 15:39:57 hmm 15:41:05 well i guess you could do it, but i think it'd be still much slower than bogosort, as you'd have to try the same permutations many, many times 15:41:28 and "much slower than bogosort" is not good 15:41:50 yes, especially as i think it's in the order of n^O(bogosort) 15:41:56 but not sure 15:41:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bead_sort <-- interesting 15:42:18 * ais523 wonders if n^(n*n!) is better or worse than 2^2^n 15:42:35 the second is the order of the 2,3 Turing machine, I calculated it a few months ago because lots of people were asking 15:42:52 http://i34.tinypic.com/15ogt4k.png <-- who likeys/not likeys this 15:42:59 (it's for the top of tusho.org, obvciously (that was intentional)) 15:43:04 ais523: much worse 15:43:14 2^(n!) is worse than that 15:43:15 tusho: I like it, but fix the vertical alignment 15:43:23 ais523: it's correct, I believe 15:43:28 oklopol: ah, of course 15:43:31 textedit did it 15:43:31 :) 15:43:33 tusho: it looks off-centre 15:43:41 as in the section sign dips too low relative to your name 15:43:48 ais523: it's meant to, I think 15:43:50 probably because the word "tusho" has no decenders 15:43:53 exactly 15:43:55 s/decenders/descenders/ 15:43:56 so that's correct 15:44:05 tusho: looking right is usually better than being right in graphic design 15:44:07 besides, it looks kinda nice this way 15:44:16 ais523: i'm not going for graphic design 15:44:21 it's only a graphic because most people don't have the font. 15:44:24 (non-OS X users) 15:44:33 i'm more interested in -typographically- nice 15:45:36 ais523: which I think it achieves :p 15:45:45 anyway, I kinda like it like this 15:48:10 ais523: the graph rewriting is at least trivial to implement, and i think it's not *that* slow, usually 15:48:12 the gist is 15:48:24 if you have a small number of connections from nodes 15:48:34 then you don't get the exponential search problem 15:49:02 and if you do have many connections, you can often just drop most of the searching, because a node with N connections must match with one with N connections 15:49:07 1. abcdec 15:49:09 &/sp 15:49:09 a->b 15:49:12 whoops. 15:49:25 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p152546313.txt using something like this it's at least trivial to implement 15:49:41 heuristics are, always start with the node with the largest number of connections 15:49:58 that's it, the rest is trivial recursion & backtracting 15:50:15 ais523: hmm, if there's no images or they're disabled or whatever, should I fallback to 'tusho' or '(symbol) tusho'? 15:50:18 but of course does not solve the actual problem. 15:50:33 tusho: use the HTML character entity for the section sign, in the alt text, along with your name 15:50:41 you can put something else in the tilte 15:50:44 s/tilte/title/ 15:50:44 the image is added with a css background, ais523 15:50:54 ... 15:51:01 that's actually better, ais523 15:51:08 but it doesn't give you alt text 15:51:10 because an img is for an actual image semantically 15:51:13 and yes it does ais523 15:51:15 the actual markup is

tusho

15:51:22 and css gets rid of the text and adds the background 15:51:52 oklopol: that's clever, it'll help in many situations 15:52:36 hmm 15:52:47 actually, there's another quick cut 15:52:58 let's say you're matching nodes A and B 15:52:59 hm... 15:52:59 now 15:53:05 is log n always less than n? 15:53:11 AnMaster: no. 15:53:26 so, they both have N connections, if they had a different amount, you'd backtract already 15:53:27 so 15:53:50 you take all the connections, follow them, and count the number of connections of each thing found in the other end 15:53:51 now 15:53:53 is that natural logarithm btw? 15:54:07 oklopol: are you sure on that? I thought log n always was less than n, because log 1 = 0, and it's worse on both sides of 1 15:54:07 AnMaster: depends on notation 15:54:20 ais523: right. 15:54:25 oklopol, as in big-O notation 15:54:28 for all bases > 1, that is 15:54:30 hmm 15:54:55 yeah, it's always less 15:54:58 wasn't thinking 15:55:01 anyway, to continnue 15:55:03 *continue 15:55:07 what about n log n then? 15:55:12 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:55:15 O(n log n) vs. O(n) 15:55:20 you count the connections of each child of A, and you count the connections of each child of B 15:55:31 you then sort these lists, and do an O(n) comparison 15:55:40 only then do you need to start trying to match the children 15:55:48 which i already showed an example of 15:56:14 and, also, if A's children's child counts are [3,3,2,2,1], and thereby B's too 15:56:14 then 15:56:30 O(n log n) is worse than O(n) for large values of n it seems 15:56:51 oklopol: one bit of semantics that you might have guessed but I didn't explain, letters in both sides of a rewrite rule can have additional connections because they're where the rule 'plugs into' the graph, letters on only one side can't have any more connections than are specified in the subgraph in question 15:56:55 you just need to try to match #1A to #1B and #2A to #2B 15:57:03 either one must succeed 15:57:15 AnMaster: yes, it is, n log n is always worse than n for large n 15:57:17 (if both succeed, you better hope the next step fails ofc) 15:57:18 although it takes a while sometimes 15:57:37 ais523: i actually did *not* take that into account. 15:57:40 ais523, what about O(n √(log log n)) 15:57:52 it actually voids this optimization completely :) 15:57:59 AnMaster: still going to be worse than O(n) eventually because root log log n is unbounded 15:58:06 hm true 15:58:27 well. I guess there is no sorting algorithm with a upper bound of O(n) 15:58:59 AnMaster: there can be, but only given prior knowledge about the data 15:59:04 err 15:59:10 for instance if you know all the data are integers in a given range, you can sort in O(n) 15:59:16 O(n) is trivial unless it's a comparison sort 15:59:17 ais523, what about custom hardware, see bead sort for example 15:59:32 oklopol, yeah but then you need custom hardware right? 16:00:00 AnMaster: err, well if you count random access as O(log n), then, err, well still not 16:00:10 but usually random access is considered O(1) 16:01:05 what is the fastest sorting algorithm (not specialized for a specific data set, but generic) on "normal" PCs 16:01:11 as in no special hardware needed 16:01:17 anyway, O(n) is trivial, and the O(n lg_a n) bound for a sort using a O(1) function that sorts a list of a elements is trivially seen from the choice tree 16:01:23 *decision tree 16:01:35 AnMaster: well the one you linked, for on 16:01:36 *one 16:01:57 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:02:10 oklopol, um bead sort need custom hardware to be that fast, "O(S), where S is the sum of the integers in the input set: Each bead is moved individually. This is the case when bead sort is implemented without a mechanism to assist in finding empty spaces below the beads, such as in software implementations." 16:02:32 "O(n): The beads are moved one row at a time. This is the case used in the analog and digital hardware solutions." 16:02:56 AnMaster: bead sort's actually O(n^2) in my opinion, because you're doing n O(n) operations in parallel 16:03:09 well okay, use a less retarded counting sort then, anyway, it doesn't require much brain power to come up with a O(n) sort 16:03:12 ais523, hm 16:03:13 I think it's cheating to not count each thread separately 16:03:22 oklopol: pigeonhole sort's O(n) 16:03:30 but only works on certain data sets 16:03:38 ais523: yes, that for instance is incredibly trivial 16:04:08 Having fun with non-comparison sorts? ;) 16:04:30 pikhq: yep 16:04:56 idea 16:04:56 My preferred one is bucket sort. 16:05:00 multi-threaded sort 16:05:01 *g* 16:05:11 pikhq, in fact we are looking for the fastest one 16:05:13 Mostly because I came up with it before knowing that it was a well-known algorithm. :p 16:05:23 pikhq: Many people do./ 16:05:35 Which is understandable. . . 16:05:55 It is a fairly obvious algorithm when you start thinking about actually sorting something. 16:06:24 i like heapsort, because there actually exist people who don't know it 16:06:40 that makes it special 16:07:02 well, I'm surprised how many people don't know mergesort 16:07:05 Say, what's the unicode char for section-thingymabob? 16:07:16 given that it's easy to implement and guaranteed n log n performance 16:07:39 tusho: 0xA7 16:07:50 so §? 16:07:52 I forget how those work. 16:07:54 Heapsort is a fairly. . . Odd algorithm, IMO. 16:07:56 tusho: yep 16:08:01 apart from the question mark 16:08:02 well heapsort is rather nice, though slower in practise 16:08:08 but that clearly isn't part of the entity 16:08:15 ais523: well if one understands recursion, they grasp it in about a microsecond 16:08:25 ais523: it sucks that I even have to use an entity, i should just be able to serve it as utf-8 16:08:26 but, you know 16:08:29 editors and shit are retarded. 16:08:29 heapsort, especially when done in-place, takes a while to explain 16:08:32 Basically, I don't get it just because I don't get the idea of a binary heap. 16:08:37 which is an odd sentence out of context 16:08:46 smoothsort seems nice 16:08:53 pikhq: basically 16:08:57 it's a binary tree 16:09:08 Hmm. 16:09:13 but for all nodes n with children a and b, n tusho: most browser/webserver combinations are rubbish at handling encodings 16:09:42 ais523: well, apache is fine at it if configured 16:09:44 and browsers too 16:09:47 but it's Other Software that's the problem 16:09:53 really it's just pointless trying 16:09:57 Oh. 16:09:58 this is O(n) to build, and the sort basically consists of taking the top, which is naturally the smallest value in the heap, and then fixing the heap property 16:09:59 yes, but you'd be surprising how often the configuration isn't done properly 16:10:11 maybe in XHTML it would be better, because XML has encodings figured more or less 16:10:19 Hmm. Looking at seeing a heap stored in an array makes that make sense. 16:10:21 now as a heap is always a perfect binary tree, you can optimize this by storing the heap as a list 16:10:46 Well, that makes using a heap make sense, rather. 16:11:16 heap sort is fun, no doubt about it 16:12:05 only my minimum space quicksort beats it in coolness 16:12:11 * tusho tries to figure what entries he should clutter his new blog design with (right now I can only think "archives") 16:12:12 :p 16:12:34 also i should stop calling it minimum space as it's O(n lg lg n) afaik 16:12:39 tusho: do you have tusho.org yet? 16:13:01 no, wanna give me it? ;p 16:13:08 I don't have it either 16:14:31 tusho: what's so hard about getting it? 16:14:38 moneys 16:14:43 i mean, sure, i could get it 16:14:46 but beh 16:15:12 I support that beh... 16:15:23 oklopol: wanna support it? 16:15:25 Great. Now I'm thinking about implementing sorting algorithms in Def-BF. 16:15:28 tusho: well it's like 10 units 16:15:35 Which means that I should definitely *implement* Def-BF. 16:15:41 Rather than merely talk about it. 16:15:47 pikhq: bubblesort is the way to go 16:15:47 yes, but there's a huge difference between £0 and 1p, oklopol 16:16:10 Def-BF makes arrays trivial; I can do a lot of sorting algorithms from there. ;) 16:16:11 tusho: 10 units is nothing, no matter what the unit 16:16:17 pikhq, what about introsort? 16:16:22 pikhq, it seems popular 16:16:27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introsort 16:16:34 oklopol: The difference is between 'nothing' and 'something' 16:16:54 pikhq, and bubble sort is O(n^2) iirc 16:17:12 Conditional vote: FOR if nobody states in a public forum during the 16:17:13 voting period that they are retracting my vote on proposal 5646, PRESENT 16:17:13 otherwise 16:17:14 er 16:17:15 Bah; bogosort. 16:17:30 tusho: Clever. 16:17:40 pikhq, if you want something useful try introsort 16:17:49 tusho: well okay, it's about less euros, to be exact, less in pounds 16:17:55 *about 10 euros 16:17:57 lol 16:18:13 introsort is an ugly sort 16:18:22 oklopol, but fast isn't it? 16:18:29 on an average computer 16:18:33 it's very good in practise 16:18:39 which is quite irrelevant 16:18:46 what about smoothsort? 16:19:07 never heard 16:19:11 I don't really like introsort 16:19:14 "The smoothsort algorithm [1] [2] is a variation of heapsort developed by Edsger Dijkstra in 1981. Like heapsort, smoothsort's upper bound is O(n log n). The advantage of smoothsort is that it comes closer to O(n) time if the input is already sorted to some degree, whereas heapsort averages O(n log n) regardless of the initial sorted state. Due to its complexity, smoothsort is rarely used." 16:19:29 ah 16:19:30 yeah 16:19:32 besides, isn't introsort still O(n log n) on contrived inputs? 16:19:37 {Digging this subject up a bit. What do we gain with this current situation other than a lot of spam? I still think editing should be disabled for the non-registered, or then there needing to be something picture code for those who aren't logged in, or something. If unregistered people really want to contribute something they could just as well register, afterall, registering to use a site shouldn't be anything extraordinary practice in modern web. --Keymake 16:19:39 s/n log n/n^2/ 16:19:41 ais523: i'm fairly sure 16:19:41 keymaker sooooooo opened a can of worms there 16:19:44 but it'll never happen 16:19:46 ais523, um no don't think so 16:19:54 tusho: I think we need an antivandalbot for esolangs.org 16:19:55 ais523: It seems like introsort is meant as a good practical sorting algorithm, not a particularly elegant one. 16:19:56 because for the forum graue specifically picked one requiring no registration & anonymous 16:20:03 so register-to-edit won't happen 16:20:03 And you, of course, go for elegance. 16:20:05 ais523: yes 16:20:09 I might write one 16:20:28 ais523, introsort basically switches to heapsort after some limit, so it's upper bound would be same as for heapsort 16:20:41 which is O(n log n) 16:20:46 purity > elegance > practicalityu 16:20:49 *practicality 16:20:52 blargh 16:21:00 AnMaster: the bit before the limit could be engineered to work badly 16:21:15 pikhq: anyway, my point was quicksort would most likely be slower than bubble sort in bf 16:21:16 p.s. the esolangs wiki tagline is Weirder Than You 16:21:21 but, an interesting subject 16:21:21 confirm via Blue Colonge skin 16:21:32 haven't seen much order talk considering esolangs 16:21:32 oklopol: Def-BF != Brainfuck. 16:21:32 ;) 16:21:53 pikhq: isn't it meant for bf translation though? 16:21:59 No. 16:22:05 tusho: yes, I knew that was the tagline, quite a good one I think 16:22:13 It's meant to be Brainfuck-esque, but for systems programming. 16:22:15 pikhq, where can I get Def-BF specs? 16:22:21 pikhq, and what about implementation? 16:22:25 pikhq: ah, i guess the name misleaded me 16:22:32 I'd hand them to you, but my bookmark is at home, not at work. 16:22:34 and the fact you can have brainfuck code in it :P 16:22:40 And the implementation? I have yet to write it. 16:22:46 oklopol: It's a superset of Brainfuck. ;) 16:23:02 yeah 16:23:10 Lessee here. . . Array access in Def-BF. . . 16:23:31 i'm considerably less interested if it's not compilable to brainfuck :P 16:23:36 i mean, sensibly 16:23:41 now food -> 16:26:18 Well, it is compilable to Brainfuck. . . 16:26:31 in theory /everything/'s compilable to Brainfuck 16:26:39 Though that would be a minor pain. Especially the bit about having a call stack. . . 16:26:43 apart from I/O mechanisms 16:27:03 Gregor's done it in C2BF, so it wouldn't be *too* painful, I guess. 16:27:09 stacks aren't too hard to implement in BF, though 16:27:32 but that's stacks of 8-bit integers or whatever the interp uses, not of call addresses 16:28:29 Well, I *think* that I have the Def-BF array access code here. . . 16:28:37 function: array[pointer, array_start] [ array_start pointer [ - ; > pointer ]] 16:29:27 Yes, it's hard to understand. 16:29:42 Erm. That's destructive of pointer. 16:30:14 function: array[pointer, array_start] [ var: tmp_pointer pointer array_start tmp_pointer [ - ; > tmp_pointer ]] 16:30:20 Viola. 16:32:52 Deewiant, well if you are there, please take a look at 16:32:54 http://rafb.net/p/V4MrQS18.html 16:36:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:37:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:39:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:39:15 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:45:41 "In order to build the Ada compiler (GNAT) you must already have GNAT installed because portions of the Ada frontend are written in Ada (with GNAT extensions.) Refer to the Ada installation instructions for more specific information. " 16:45:46 wtf 16:45:50 how did they think there? 16:45:54 AnMaster: you have to start from a binary 16:46:01 just like with many other similar projects 16:46:04 AnMaster: ghc only builds on ghc 16:46:05 ais523, what if there is no binary for a specific arch? 16:46:10 and then you write the compiler 16:46:13 compile it on itself 16:46:14 (cross-compile) 16:46:16 then move the binary over 16:46:17 ah 16:46:17 AnMaster: then you cross-compile, obviously 16:46:22 right 16:46:30 for instance DJGPP only compiles on DOS using itself 16:46:49 but you can use a Linux version of gcc to cross-compile it to get a version of DJGPP that runs on Linux and outputs DOS executables 16:46:59 then compile that with itself to get a DOS version of DJGPP 16:47:08 um, how do you get that djgpp version that works on linux? 16:47:18 oh wait right 16:47:21 you cross compile it 16:47:25 blergh still 16:48:11 well the first GNAT version couldn't have depended on GNAT I assume? 16:48:46 They probably bootstrapped the compiler. 16:48:57 or used some earlier compiler 16:49:04 gnat wasn't the first one afaik 16:49:11 AnMaster: That's ... what pikhq said. 16:49:15 right 16:49:22 Writing GNAT in a subset of Ada supported by a simple C compiler is possible. . . 16:49:29 Or even hand-compiling the Ada code. 16:49:29 why are compilers for a lang often written in the lang itself/ 16:49:32 s/\//?/ 16:49:34 AnMaster: no long long, ptrdiff_t, size_t, wchar_t, clock_t, time_t, possibly others missing 16:49:35 ais523: It's more fun. 16:49:44 maybe because people implementing a lang are likely to be proficient in that lang 16:49:46 and therefore like using it? 16:49:49 And, besides, if your language is TOTAL FREAKIN' AWESOMENESS, wouldn't you want to write the complex compiler for it in that lang 16:49:51 so that it's easier? 16:49:57 Because it's TOTAL FREAKIN' AWESOMENESS. 16:49:57 Deewiant, ah true, however that isn't easy with libffi, they are missing from there 16:50:02 Deewiant, brb, phone 16:50:05 Also. It gets you major geek points. 16:50:08 I don't know about libffi 16:50:14 * pikhq gives Gregor major geek points 16:50:20 I'm just thinking of C stuff that's missing 16:50:51 (Plof 2 has multiple implementations: a D interpreter, a Plof->C compiler in Plof, and a Plof->Js compiler in Plof) 16:50:53 AnMaster: structs 16:51:58 also, especially for a C FFI, just use 0gnirts 16:52:12 but in general for -98 just use 0gnirts 16:52:16 since everything else does 16:52:16 ais523: if i have the time, ill implement a stupid graph matcher / eodermdrome parser tonight, if you have any examples, do gimme 16:52:20 tusho: like Chris Pressey writing Shelta in itself, when the only other interp from it was in asm 16:52:27 oklopol: haven't written any yet, maybe I should 16:52:29 just saying because i don't have the time yet 16:52:29 YES 16:52:37 s/from/for/ 16:52:39 unintentional caps 16:52:41 but i prefer it that way 16:52:54 but yeah, shelta is pretty much the archetypical bootstrapping example 16:53:01 ais523: just something so i can test parsing and matching 16:53:14 dunno your rewriting semantics exactly 16:53:18 oh, actually i think i do. 16:53:22 that's trivial 16:53:32 well, one other rule: commas toggle commentness 16:53:37 e.g. ,this is a comment, 16:53:43 Haifu has that rule and it works well there 16:53:55 ais523: comments? In a tarpit? 16:54:07 tusho: BF has comments 16:54:34 yes 16:54:35 implicit ones 16:54:37 that's OK 16:54:43 it's less effort than erroring out on invalid instructions 16:54:48 tusho: I wasn't really using punctuation marks for anything else 16:54:50 thus more tarpitty than explicit comments or explicit errors 16:55:01 ais523: but this way you force people to use leetspeak 16:55:04 AnMaster: structs 16:55:07 well 16:55:10 that is hard to do 16:55:16 |-| |= |_ |_ 0! 16:55:16 how to marshall bitfields? 16:55:18 packing? 16:55:20 and so on 16:55:26 but in general for -98 just use 0gnirts 16:55:32 two reasons 16:55:41 char * will be useful when the data isn't a string 16:55:56 that allows marshalling structs 16:56:01 then separate the two cleanly 16:56:04 or maybe you already did 16:56:08 I didn't go through it in that much detail 16:56:14 but use 0gnirts where it makes sense 16:56:21 Deewiant, hm? char * here is just a binary string 16:56:43 as for "gnirts", that is what funge-108 is moving to in new places 16:56:53 yes, but where it points to a character string use 0gnirts 16:56:57 and yes, I know 16:57:07 and yes those types you mentioned, some may be useful 16:57:09 which is why I explicitly said "for -98" 16:57:11 AnMaster: gnirtslen strikes me as being much harder to handle than 0gnirts 16:57:30 ais523, oh? it allows embedding nulls in a string 16:57:38 which is kind of important here 16:57:52 maybe it should be 01-"gnirts", then 16:58:01 but yes library name could be 0gnirts 16:58:04 also your method bounds string length, whereas mine doesn't 16:58:14 ais523, you still have the problem of in-band data 16:58:33 ais523, huh? 16:58:46 you mean to the size of the funge cell type? 16:58:50 AnMaster: yes 16:58:53 -!- olsner has joined. 16:59:03 in Funge-98 there's nothing bounding string length AFAICT 16:59:24 this could be important when processing very long documents, the stack's the only place to store them 16:59:24 if you have strings bigger than size_t you're screwed anyway :-P 16:59:32 Deewiant, yes indeed 16:59:38 Deewiant: not all langs use a size_t 16:59:45 hm? 16:59:58 some langs are theoretically capable of unlimited growth in data storage 17:00:01 if your interpreter doesn't support cells of size_t size then you're also screwed anyway 17:00:07 and Funge-98's one of them 17:00:43 I changed to 0"gnirts" in the places it won't cause loss of functionality 17:01:02 http://rafb.net/p/YKOpiP40.html 17:01:36 Deewiant, anyway I looked at how to marshal complex types, like structs 17:01:48 you just have to do it manually 17:01:50 there isn't really a sane way I'm afraid. 17:01:52 pointer to struct 17:01:57 pointer to next field of struct 17:01:59 hence you get the offset 17:02:01 etc. 17:02:08 Deewiant, well I need to describe the type of the struct too 17:02:11 like bitfields 17:02:12 and so on 17:02:23 stuff which libffi can't always handle 17:02:29 bitfields are messy and not necessarily important 17:02:29 libffi can handle some structs 17:02:43 actually, they're usually padded too 17:02:43 Deewiant, I use bitfields in cfunge in some places 17:02:46 so they're just integers 17:02:58 Deewiant, sometimes they are merged with the padding of other fields 17:03:08 yes, and 17:03:18 which makes it a lot more complex 17:03:33 how 17:03:41 for example: short; int:1; 17:03:56 struct foo bar[2]; 17:04:18 Deewiant, if the int wasn't a bitfield, then there would have been a padding of 2 bytes between 17:04:24 now it is merged into that padding 17:04:27 &bar[0] <-- start address 17:04:31 &bar[0].short <-- address of short 17:04:37 Anyone want to give me a unicode down-arrow? 17:04:38 &bar[0].int <-- address of int 17:04:38 Deewiant, so what interface are you suggesting for it? 17:04:48 &bar[1] <-- end of &bar[0] 17:05:05 ↓ 17:05:12 0x2193 17:05:20 without stalk? 17:05:23 tusho: ↑ 17:05:36 ... 17:05:38 Deewiant, ? 17:05:41 without the stalk. going downwards. 17:05:51 I don't know how it would work in practice with befunge, but something like that would work, i.e. manually giving the offsets as addresses 17:05:51 tusho: I was trying to say that before your request to get you to look up 17:06:06 ah 17:06:19 Deewiant, well that needs knowledge of the details of the ABI in question 17:06:37 Deewiant, otherwise you can't know how a pointer, or a long double would be padded 17:06:37 there's 0x2304 but for some reason I can't paste it into Konversation's text box⌄⌄⌄⌄ 17:06:40 that's just an arrowhead 17:06:54 hmph 17:06:58 I just want a filled v, essentially 17:06:59 :-) 17:07:04 AnMaster: first of all, the C ABI is standardized. second of all, what does padding matter 17:07:06 I guess I need a define struct type function 17:07:10 ▼ 17:07:14 that's what you want? 17:07:17 Deewiant, padding matters for where it is in a struct 17:07:32 U+25BC BLACK DOWN-POINTING TRIANGLE 17:07:39 Deewiant, because of alignment 17:07:42 AnMaster: I direct you to my &bar[0] above 17:07:46 all the info is there 17:07:49 tusho: there's ▾ as well 17:08:00 which is apparently the same thing but smaller 17:08:10 ah yes 17:08:12 thanks 17:08:24 which one do you prefer? 17:08:33 Deewiant, um I don't get what you mean with it 17:08:41 tusho: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/block/geometric_shapes/utf8test.htm and http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/category/So/list.htm 17:08:51 what about a short followed by a long 17:08:54 thanks Deewiant 17:08:55 :) 17:08:58 that will differ between 32-bit and 64-bit 17:09:03 ▾ seems right 17:09:04 AnMaster: you can get the position of a field in a struct by taking the difference of &struct.field and &struct 17:09:18 U+25BE, then 17:09:21 on x86: short <16 bits padding> long 17:09:34 on x86_64: short <48 bits padding> long 17:10:05 Deewiant, well if it was at the start of a struct, it would be aligned at the start 17:10:08 AnMaster: and &struct.long - &struct.short will be 16 and 48, respectively. 17:10:11 Deewiant, also this is all about resolving at runtime 17:10:18 so offsetof() doesn't work 17:10:22 someone should invent a UTF-1 17:10:26 yes, of course it is at runtime 17:10:34 there's already UTF-6, UTF-7, UTF-8 and UTF-9, after all 17:10:42 and Punycode has been described as UTF-5 17:10:47 and taking the address of something works at runtime 17:10:51 it's called 'lea', look into it 17:11:10 ais523: what would utf-1 be? 17:11:17 tusho: it would be a stream of bits 17:11:17 Deewiant, well I won't know how the struct looks until runtime, so where would I have a prepared struct to do that on 17:11:24 I can't generate one at runtime and compile it... 17:11:25 which is self-delimiting, not split into bytes in any way 17:11:26 ais523: of zeroes, rather 17:11:32 ais523: that's impossible? 17:11:43 Deewiant: no, UTF-8 uses 8-bit integers, so UTF-1 would use 1-bit integers 17:11:49 Deewiant: you just described UTF-0 17:11:56 ah, right 17:11:58 my bad 17:12:11 tusho: not impossible, in fact quite easy, you could use base-Fibonacci for instance 17:12:15 AnMaster: well, one assumes that the C program is compiled 17:12:45 the befunge program can maybe request the info via the FFI, since the C part knows it? 17:12:47 Deewiant: I assumed lea was just a clever way to get the adressing unit of the CPU to do calculations 17:12:56 s/adressing/addressing/ 17:13:11 it doesn't do anything that couldn't be done with MOV and arithmetic, I don't think 17:13:15 yes, that was its original purpose all along ;-P 17:13:24 UTF-1.5849625. 17:13:33 Deewiant, C library you mean 17:13:49 ihope: what's with those decimals? Base-fibonacci would be about UTF-1.618 17:13:49 Deewiant, and I can't see how a struct looks from a binary 17:13:50 I don't mean anything 17:14:05 Deewiant, the binary doesn't have that metadata unless it contains debug info 17:14:16 ais523: this is base 3. 17:14:25 ihope: ah 17:14:34 AnMaster: ... so you're essentially trying to implement something which allows calling C library functions without seeing the corresponding .h file? 17:14:44 Fibonacci coding, where every string is valid unless it contains a 11? 17:14:48 Deewiant, of course, that is what libffi does 17:14:51 Deewiant: that's ... what libffi does 17:14:59 I don't know anything of libffi 17:15:20 UTF-log(phi)/log(2), surely. 17:15:22 Deewiant, you tell libffi what parameters a function takes, then it handles the ABI details 17:15:23 but, so, if you have a function which takes a struct argument... how would you know what to put in, in any other language 17:15:29 like what stuff to pass in registers and so on 17:15:31 and alignment 17:16:05 AnMaster: doesn't answer my question 17:16:30 you can tell it about structs too and it fixes alignment, but the interface for befunge code would be painful 17:16:41 Deewiant, and I guess you read the docs 17:17:02 libffi docs? no, I didn't nor will I 17:17:09 no... 17:17:12 docs for whatever you call 17:17:14 and yeah, I've essentially been describing such an interface 17:17:23 and now you tell me that there's already support for that 17:17:28 so why am I talking again? :_P 17:17:58 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 17:18:04 Deewiant, I don't parse header files when I use a native function in C#, instead I do something like: 17:18:05 [DllImport(X52_SO), SuppressUnmanagedCodeSecurityAttribute] 17:18:05 internal static extern X52Type x52_gettype(IntPtr hdl); 17:18:17 to tell it how it looks 17:18:19 AnMaster: you use C#? I thought you didn't like the Windows API 17:18:27 ais523, I have used C# + mono 17:18:30 I don't any longer 17:18:36 AnMaster: it still uses the Windows API 17:18:41 or maybe that's how you came to hate it? 17:18:42 AnMaster: your point, I do not see it 17:18:46 ais523, yep, I used to use it, but I don't use it any longer I said 17:19:03 Deewiant, my point is: what would I need a header file for!? 17:19:49 Deewiant, I saw how you did some prototypes for C functions in TERM fingerprint (commented out POSIX part, I got TERM to work using those functions btw) 17:19:56 you didn't use the C header file it seemd 17:20:00 seemed* 17:20:05 if the docs properly describe the internals of course you don't need one 17:20:09 so why would not befunge code also declare it's own extern stuff 17:20:12 but there the docs serve the equivaelnt purpose 17:20:16 s/elnt/lent/ 17:20:37 Deewiant, you looked at the header file and translated it for use in D basically I assume? 17:20:38 the point is that, at some point in time, you have to see what exactly struct Foo contains to be able to call int f(struct Foo); 17:20:43 yes. 17:20:51 so the befunge programmer have to do the same 17:20:57 yes, exactly. 17:21:22 so what's the problem with being able to tell libffi via befunge instructions "i haz a struct which contains a char and an int in that order" 17:21:28 then what was the issue? apart from missing ability to declare structs 17:21:35 where I can't come up with a good interface 17:21:38 Deewiant: you only need to know how big it is 17:21:45 to be able to pass it to a function 17:21:50 ais523: sure, but I'm assuming we don't know that 17:21:58 ais523, and if you want the info out of it, a lot more 17:21:58 putting the values in it in the first place might be difficult if you don't know its internal structure, though 17:22:05 and exactly that 17:22:12 you beat me to it 17:22:18 and that is where I can't come up with a good befunge interface 17:22:27 apart from bitfields, libffi can do it 17:22:39 just have a one-to-one mapping between libffi functions and befunge instructions? 17:22:42 I guess I have to do struct ids 17:22:46 and so on 17:22:54 Deewiant, not so easy really :/ 17:22:59 and yeah, so you support at most size_t.max structs at a time, or something 17:23:00 Deewiant, it uses a lot of pointers 17:23:12 so I need a lot of unique ids 17:23:15 well, you have to deal with pointers anyway, neh? 17:23:19 yes 17:23:21 how did you do that, actually 17:23:27 a pointer doesn't necessarily fit in an int 17:23:34 what about function pointers, too 17:23:36 see details in specs 17:23:41 " On 64-bit platforms with 32-bit funges this may be stored in some array 17:23:42 in the interpreter and the programs get an unique ID for it instead that 17:23:42 will be looked up if a pointer is passed later." 17:24:02 as for function pointers, more unique ids 17:24:18 you're too specific, "64-bit with 32-bit"... what about 69-bit with 7-bit?? 17:24:26 Deewiant, same applies of course 17:24:46 just say it generally "this is an int which represents a pointer value in some implementation-dependant way" 17:25:04 On platforms with large pointer than funge space cells this may be stored 17:25:04 in some array in the interpreter and the programs get an unique ID for it 17:25:04 instead that will be looked up if a pointer is passed later. 17:25:08 maybe that? 17:25:15 too specific 17:25:18 Deewiant, basically it would work about the same as refc 17:25:22 why an array, why not a binary tree 17:26:01 it's a spec, you don't have to talk about implementation details 17:26:14 unless you want to have subsections like "suggestions for implementers: ..." 17:27:03 well I will make it more generic 17:27:40 * ais523 just googled "C-INTERCAL" 17:27:49 anyway generic pointers are useful for 1) you don't care what it contains, 2) you need something too complex to express using the FFI, then you could use memcpy on said pointer later on 17:27:54 and got these as related links from Ohloh (which I've never heard of): CCBI, cfunge, CLISP - an ANSI Common Lisp, GNU Smalltalk, Pike 17:27:59 the first two I can understand 17:28:05 the other three not so much 17:28:08 ais523, well I can't get the other ones 17:28:16 ais523: ohloh is ... 17:28:17 uh... 17:28:19 inaccurate. 17:28:27 well, the first two were spot on 17:28:43 it missed CLC-INTERCAL, but other than that CCBI and cfunge are both pretty similar, probably with cfunge being more accurate 17:29:03 ais523, CLC-INTERCAL doesn't have an entry on ohloh 17:29:14 AnMaster: I'm not that surprised 17:29:15 * AnMaster just checked 17:29:49 and I think I added C-INTERCAL there some months ago 17:30:04 AnMaster: why? 17:30:14 ais523, why not? 17:30:17 makes sense 17:30:19 it was missing 17:30:20 I was just wondering 17:30:47 ais523, check my stack size there, for some time I added a lot of stuff that I used 17:38:06 wow... http://www.freebsdsoftware.org/lang/intercal.html 17:38:15 it seems that C-INTERCAL's being ported all over the place nowadays 17:40:27 ah well I got an idea for structs 17:40:41 ais523, does it need porting? 17:40:56 AnMaster: nah, it compiles out-of-box on FreeBSD 17:41:06 although I think they fixed the prefix thing independently of you reporting it 17:41:19 date: 1998/04/17 21:52:16; author: mph; state: Exp; lines: +0 -0 17:41:22 was the first one 17:41:24 it seems 17:42:07 ais523, is one of the change log entries a poem!? 17:42:11 1.8 17:42:12 no idea 17:42:21 v. 1.8 17:42:21 date: 2003/03/07 06:05:31; author: ade; state: Exp; lines: +1 -0 17:42:21 Clear moonlight beckons. 17:42:21 Requiem mors pacem pkg-comment, 17:42:21 And be calm ports tree. 17:42:22 E Nomini Patri, E Fili, E Spiritu Sancti. 17:42:24 wtf 17:44:09 :-DD 17:45:43 Deewiant, anyway my structs api basically allows converting structs to and from generic pointers 17:49:00 you 1) define a struct type 2) you instantiate a struct object and get a generic pointer 3) you can then set and get individual fields 17:49:15 you can also replace step 2 if you get the pointer from a function you called 17:49:25 Deewiant, does the generic idea seem sane? 17:50:17 Deewiant, ? 17:50:23 sure, why not, you just use POD functionality but of course it's befunge so I don't think it matters that much :-P 17:50:29 POD? 17:50:38 AnMaster: I do do other things you know, just because I don't answer in a minute... 17:50:42 plain old data 17:50:47 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:50:55 um... and what does this mean in this contex? 17:50:57 context* 17:51:25 it generally refers to how structs don't have any metadata, no vtable or anything, just what the definition says + padding 17:51:51 in this case I was thinking that since you manipulate them only through pointers they become kinda opaque 17:51:58 well of course, why would they have anything else? 17:52:07 in C they certainly don't 17:52:52 they could have vtables to allow inheritance, for instance 17:52:55 but they don't, and hence they're POD. 17:52:58 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:53:04 17:53:55 Deewiant, well this isn't a C++ FFI, it is a C FFI 17:54:00 so not an issue 17:54:11 you're completely missing my point 17:54:13 as usual 17:54:15 :-P 17:54:21 Deewiant, well what did you mean then? 17:54:21 2008-07-16 19:51:50 ( Deewiant) in this case I was thinking that since you manipulate them only through pointers they become kinda opaque 17:54:29 yes and? 17:54:44 there is no sane way other than pointers if you don't know data at compile time 17:55:27 I don't know if it actually matters to be honest 17:55:30 just came to mind 17:55:39 hm 17:55:55 I mean, you can still do memcpy and stuff even though it's behind a pointer... 17:56:03 shrug, guess it doesn't matter 17:56:13 except for efficiency but hey, this is befunge :-P 17:56:29 Deewiant: I hope that was sarcasm 17:56:39 haha 17:56:45 no, not for me it wasn't 17:56:49 for AnMaster it might be ;-) 17:56:50 Deewiant: well yeah 17:56:50 :) 17:56:59 hahah 17:57:19 well anyway this CFFI isn't efficient 17:57:22 I never said it was 17:57:48 it is just about: because I can 18:05:24 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:10:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:15:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:15:42 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:24:10 actually I can't implement struct stuff until how I understands exactly how it is done in libffi 18:24:12 the rest I can do 18:24:50 I do understand how it passes structs by value, but now how it pass them by pointer 18:26:48 `ffi_type_pointer' 18:26:48 A generic `void *' pointer. You should use this for all pointers, 18:26:48 regardless of their real type. 18:26:54 however I don't get how to convert then 18:27:04 AnMaster: by assignment 18:27:16 ais523, sure? it doesn't seem to make sense here 18:27:18 i.e. if you assign that to a struct foo*, it becomes a struct foo * 18:27:38 well at runtime using libffi I mean... 18:27:50 ais523: i'll prolly go offline soon 18:27:51 so 18:28:05 do you have any examples / a spec of some sort for the language? 18:28:20 oklopol, offline for how long? 18:28:32 AnMaster: for an unspecified amount of time 18:28:36 is that important? 18:28:55 i don't see how anyone could need me :o 18:29:10 oklopol: unfortunately not 18:29:14 it's only in my head atm, nowhere else 18:29:28 oklopol, hope you get back within a few days 18:29:31 ais523: if you feel like writing down examples, would be nice 18:29:42 AnMaster: i will definitely come back within a few days. 18:30:01 oklopol, going somewhere without internet? 18:30:03 ok, maybe this evening or something, now is not a good type for coding from my point of view, I'm sitting on a wooden chair in a cafe of a library which closes in about 30 mins 18:30:24 ais523, will you move to somewhere else with internet after? 18:30:27 I hope you do :) 18:30:31 AnMaster: no 18:30:35 ais523, :( 18:30:37 I have to get sleep sometime 18:30:40 and I'm a bit low on it atm 18:30:44 ais523, did you make the updates for cfunge? 18:30:48 AnMaster: no 18:30:51 ah ok 18:31:23 i will prolly leave like in half an hour. 18:31:29 AnMaster: well no 18:31:30 but 18:31:34 ais523, anyway the libffi will be optional, and I suspect it could cause issues when used at the same time as IFFI 18:31:39 i'm going somewhere where i will not use the internet 18:31:43 it is not impossible it does stack tricks you see 18:31:59 oklopol, ah, have fun whatever the reason is 18:32:01 and yeah, i don't mind people being nice, it's actually quite nice. 18:32:14 * oklopol has always fun 18:32:39 ais523, and libffi isn't that common, so yeah optional 18:33:29 okay i'll write the parser now, that should be a trivial task 18:34:32 ais523, I suspect CFFI will be more messy than IFFI 18:34:38 AnMaster: ugh 18:34:39 also it will take quite a bit of time to implement 18:34:48 ais523, haha 18:34:53 ais523, well maybe not 18:35:09 ais523, more mess before the preprocessor, but less messy after 18:35:16 however, it will not be feral 18:35:27 that is a main difference 18:35:43 AnMaster: I suspect it will be less full-featured than IFFI, it doesn't allow calling back into the Befunge from outside for instance 18:36:13 ais523, yes indeed, as I would need a function pointer to call back to 18:36:45 and I can't see how to do that 18:37:49 ais523, however I can't think of a lot of libc functions that I would even think about using from inside befunge, and that accepts callbacks 18:37:52 qsort maybe 18:37:56 but that's it 18:38:06 AnMaster: but what if you want to use Befunge routines in a C program? 18:38:08 atexit from in there makes no sense 18:38:13 ais523, um what? 18:38:24 AnMaster: it's not an unreasonable request, surely? 18:38:33 you mean call a befunge program from C? 18:38:38 well that isn't what this does 18:38:38 yes 18:38:50 it is not an intended goal 18:38:58 the goal here is to call library functions at runtime 18:39:06 >>> parse_eodermdrome("eodermdrome") 18:39:06 {'e': set(['r', 'm', 'd', 'o']), 'd': set(['m', 'r', 'e', 'o']), 'm': set(['r', 'e', 'd', 'o']), 'o': set(['m', 'r', 'e', 'd']), 'r': set(['m', 'e', 'd', 'o'])} 18:39:10 ais523: looks correct? 18:39:25 oklopol: yes 18:39:39 took a while, since i'm coding straight into the prompt 18:39:46 too lazy to make a file :P 18:39:55 oklopol, make a file now then 18:40:14 NEVER 18:40:14 well i guess. 18:40:16 unless you want to loose your works? 18:40:35 ais523, well afk for a few hours 18:43:43 -!- olsner has quit. 18:44:00 *lose 18:44:20 also a few lines of python isn't really that dangerous to lose :D 18:44:42 especially as most of it was stuff real languages like oklotalk hace built in 18:44:43 *have 18:44:52 oklopol: betcha python has them 18:44:53 what were they 18:45:05 err well a default value dictionary 18:45:20 and dropping all references to a certain object from a data structure 18:45:32 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:46:18 and do remember the key issue is having them built-in, i don't want to import shit. 18:47:02 gosh, a modularized standard library! 18:47:04 how evil! 18:47:06 ais523: write me a small example please, i don't wanna think! :P 18:47:09 'import x' is so hard 18:47:15 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1""). 18:47:26 tusho: it's not hard 18:47:31 that's not the point 18:58:30 back 18:59:48 * AnMaster is happy to see someone else than himself being the target for tusho's sarcasm for once 19:00:06 * tusho rolls eyes 19:00:27 in fact, module systems are for losers! 19:00:40 Real men code in C and put all the code in one big file so they don't have to include anything! 19:00:40 lament: and assholes 19:01:40 lament, well I code C but split it into many files, you could call them modules even 19:02:29 They're modules because they're multiple files. 19:02:36 not really 19:03:03 it is possible to split the c files into a totally non-logical manner 19:03:09 say, one function per file 19:03:17 then include all the C files into one main C file 19:03:28 tusho: to me, 'module system' implies compartmentalized namespaces 19:03:33 making sure none of the "modules" work without any other 19:03:38 lament: this is called ``sarcasm''. 19:03:51 lament, ah... well yes I do that most time 19:04:01 I have Stack* FungeSpace* and so on for function names 19:04:03 Input* 19:04:13 there are a few in the "global" name space then 19:04:37 lament, of course these are not true namespaces like in C++ or whatever 19:04:44 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/706950 19:04:47 masturbating monkeys! 19:04:55 tusho, seen it 19:06:22 lament: Real men code in C and put all the code in one big file so they don't have to include anything! <<< exactly, except unlike you i'm serious :D 19:07:51 well tusho you should stop picking on me for using posix_fadvise() ;P 19:07:53 this is worse 19:08:04 AnMaster: oklo-coding is art. 19:08:09 twisted, outsider art 19:08:10 but art 19:08:21 tusho, well mine is another sort of art then 19:08:27 annoy-tusho art 19:08:29 AnMaster: yeah ... 'awful' art 19:08:34 :) 19:08:39 modern expressionism 19:08:39 :P 19:08:42 anyway, me goes, see ya later 19:08:47 oklopol, cya 19:08:49 PREMODERN POSTEXPRESSIONISM 19:08:51 ISM 19:09:14 i'm almost finished with eodermdrome, that is, haven't started yet but i'm sure it's trivial 19:09:20 hm? Postmodern preexpressionism maybe? 19:09:21 so, you'll see that tomorrow, ais 19:09:22 right 19:09:25 not here 19:09:29 anyway, bye 19:09:30 -> 19:09:32 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 19:09:53 btw tusho, why did you change from the nick ehird? 19:10:16 i had invented it earlier, didn't really like 'ehird', and right to vanish 19:10:30 right to vanish is harder if you use your real name. 19:10:34 ah 19:10:35 true 19:11:21 anyway CFFI draft will need some more work 19:11:29 before I can even think about implementing it 19:11:49 it won't work the way I did it, but now I think I can see how to do it properly 19:14:39 tusho, also if you read the cfunge readme you would know that there are a few other fingerprints except TRDS that I won't implement 19:14:48 like? 19:14:50 I wonder why you haven't bugged me 19:14:53 tusho, see readme 19:15:11 like I've downloaded cfunge 19:15:17 tusho, haha :P 19:15:23 well I won't say 19:15:29 so that is the only way to find out 19:15:41 heck, even ccbi doesn't implement some of those 19:15:49 i am so excited 19:15:54 i will download it immediately to see. 19:16:05 tusho, well one because it contradicts Funge98 specs 19:16:57 oh? 19:17:29 yes, iirc the mycology readme or the ccbi readme mentions it 19:17:36 mycology certainly doesn't test it 19:18:30 oh wow 19:18:37 lament, what? 19:18:38 i just realized that i can't type !!!!!!111 by accident 19:18:45 you can't? 19:18:49 nope 19:18:51 different keyboard layout? 19:18:59 i think it's an OS X feature. 19:18:59 dvorak or azerty maybe? 19:19:04 lament, eh? 19:19:06 what?! 19:19:11 If i press shift and hold 1 19:19:15 yes? 19:19:25 once I release shift, it stops typing. 19:19:31 interesting 19:19:38 same with any other key 19:19:52 <3 OS X 19:19:52 yeah 19:19:54 clearly Apple want's to kill l33t sp33k 19:19:55 ;P 19:19:56 it's good behaviour 19:20:01 but a good idea 19:20:13 it's the little things 19:20:16 it's one of those things that seem completely obvious in retrospect 19:20:38 lament, well I could probably set something in X to cause same effect I think 19:20:47 maybe. 19:21:12 I think I even seen an option for it 19:21:24 but with little things, it's very important that the default setting is sane 19:21:51 and it's all about the little things :) 19:21:52 lament, defaults? blargh 19:22:04 lament, but how do you change that on os x 19:22:11 AnMaster: well, case in point: YOU didn't change your X setting. 19:22:12 AnMaster: system preferences->keyboard 19:22:13 so the shift thing works as it does on other platforms 19:22:18 if it's in there 19:22:19 you can do it 19:22:23 lament, because I don't need it 19:22:32 AnMaster: will you ever need the opposite? 19:22:36 I don't see a good case for it 19:22:42 tusho, well, nostalgia? 19:22:42 safe for games, which already override that stuff 19:22:43 ;P 19:23:04 oh yes, in games 19:23:11 because shift may mean run 19:23:12 but games already get keypresses directly 19:23:14 so they don't get that behaviour 19:23:16 they do 19:23:23 indeed 19:23:30 tusho, anyway a reason: nostalgia :P 19:23:36 not a good reason I knoiw 19:23:38 know* 19:23:54 yeah see os x is designed for using :-) 19:24:16 defaults are important because there's thousands of little things like this 19:24:28 none of which, taken individuall, matters a whole lot 19:27:47 hm I got a better idea for providing the parameter details, basically giving the info as a string of some sort 19:27:50 that I then parse 19:27:53 like say: 19:28:01 "double, double, int" 19:28:17 easier to write the befunge code than having to worry about integer values for them 19:29:07 -!- olsner has joined. 19:58:53 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 20:26:23 Deewiant, a bug in ccbi, I was implementing FRTH and got: 20:26:27 GOOD: L rolls value correctly 20:26:30 GOOD: P picks value correctly 20:26:33 both are lies 20:26:41 the functions are still empty 20:26:55 I just tested that my D in FRTH worked 20:27:26 AnMaster: a bug in MYCOLOGY 20:27:52 meh 20:27:58 ah yes 20:28:00 tusho, a typo 20:28:03 indeed 20:28:07 of course you know that if the function is empty, it doesn't work :-P 20:28:20 but if it would pop even one value it would detect it correctly :-P 20:29:06 Deewiant, I'm not clear on what they should do 20:29:08 in general I assume that the instruction at least pops the right number of arguments 20:29:19 "Forth Roll command" 20:29:23 is the only docs for it 20:29:26 I can't remember either, read up on FORTH and find out 20:29:29 and I don't know Forth 20:29:36 so look at the forth docs 20:29:41 ah well... 20:29:47 or just reverse engineer ccbi 20:29:55 * AnMaster takes the second, easier, path 20:37:04 Deewiant, ooh I was studying your stack code 20:37:11 seems you *do* care about performance 20:37:25 according to a comment in container.d lines 44 to 58 20:37:41 * AnMaster pokes tusho to inform him 20:37:47 whatever 20:38:35 tusho, http://rafb.net/p/tJYDmC47.html 20:38:43 whatever 20:38:53 also, C got /**/, D have /++/ 20:39:03 anyone with /%%/ or /--/? 20:39:28 AnMaster: /++/ is just nestable comments 20:39:31 /**/ works too 20:39:33 ah 20:39:35 interesting 20:39:38 and useful 20:39:45 why not make /**/ nestable in D? 20:40:02 because it's useful 20:40:06 after all D, unlike C++, doesn't aim for supporting C 20:40:15 tusho, how is non-nestable comments useful? 20:40:23 AnMaster: Think a bit. 20:40:36 I guess with some crazy macros it could be useful? 20:40:37 think a bit, you fucking stupid moron retard. 20:41:02 but I can't think of a place where I used the feature that /**/ aren't nestable 20:41:13 plenty of places where I wanted it nestable (in macros) 20:41:40 tusho, thought, no result returned 20:41:51 maybe lament can tell me 20:41:52 lament: I concur! 20:41:55 :-P 20:42:30 tusho, tell me then 20:43:13 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 20:43:28 AnMaster: i have no clue :D 20:43:36 lament, haha 20:43:39 so tusho, tell us 20:43:49 i'm allowed to be lazy and unhelpful 20:43:49 AnMaster: rather, it's because I first implemented a Stack before finding out I needed a Deque. 20:43:50 :-) 20:44:04 tusho: Stop reopening the bug!!! 20:44:26 Deewiant, ok, but why that comment then? 20:44:29 but sure, I care about performance, I'm just not stupid about it. :-P 20:44:40 well, it explains why we don't just use a Deque all the time. 20:44:51 ah 20:44:59 yes I can see how it would be slower 20:45:06 a stack can be pretty fast really 20:45:17 but if you need to move the base of the stack too... slower 20:47:49 AnMaster: the reason /**/ isn't nestable in D is because Walter thinks it's a good idea to be as close to C/C++ as possible if the syntax looks like C/C++. 20:48:09 I see 20:48:28 Deewiant, still I'm all for using the other arithmetic operators too! :P 20:48:49 a lot of people, including me, disagree about that, but in this case it doesn't matter since we can just use /++/ for nesting. 20:48:55 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:48:55 sure, but for what purpose? :-P 20:49:11 Deewiant, to poke fun at Walter 20:49:33 anyway yes there are good reasons to keep some syntax similar to C 20:49:43 less steep learning curve 20:49:44 that wasn't the point 20:49:49 but non-nestable comments... wtf 20:49:52 the point was that if the syntax is similar the semantics should also be 20:50:04 Deewiant, that makes sense in some cases 20:50:12 often there are good arguments against it though, but Walter's stubborn 20:50:15 but for this. just wtf 20:50:27 like said, for this I think it's fine 20:50:32 especially since they are useful in some cases 20:50:35 is the D language an ISO standard? 20:50:39 like C is 20:50:40 no :-D 20:50:47 what a pitty 20:50:57 then just one man can have too much power over it 20:51:09 Deewiant, ok, why are non-nestable comments useful 20:51:10 tell me 20:51:14 yeah, kinda like linux 20:51:30 they're sometimes handy in debugging for commenting out large blocks of code 20:51:58 you just put one */ at some point and keep adding /* earlier and earlier 20:52:08 hmm 20:52:25 I normally prefer to use gdb 20:52:40 to print the value at each specific time point 20:53:01 I generally prefer just printf debugging, but that's an opinion 20:53:05 there are some cases where you can't use a debugger 20:53:10 oh? 20:53:26 for instance, when the code behaves differently with and without -g 20:53:39 or when you're debugging a concurrent app running on multiple computers 20:53:54 to name two cases that I've run into :-P 20:55:44 for instance, when the code behaves differently with and without -g <-- thankfully that never happened to me 20:56:03 or even, differently with or without gdb attached 20:56:05 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:56:07 anyway -g wouldn't make a difference, unless your program is actually reading the debug info, say if you are writing a debugger 20:56:11 i.e. -g is fine as long as you don't actually debug :-P 20:56:16 Deewiant, and in that case, try core dump 20:56:20 that would work 20:56:35 -!- olsner has joined. 20:56:58 unless you're on a machine with the hard ulimit for core dumps set to 0 :-) 20:57:15 I've actually never debugged from core dumps 20:57:33 wouldn't necessarily know what to do with one, I haven't actually looked at one in years :-P 20:57:52 haha 20:57:57 Deewiant, you run: 20:58:08 gdb path/to/program path/to/core 20:58:25 that will be like entering gdb just at the time of SIGSEGV or whatever 20:58:39 ah, handy 20:58:49 although, I rarely have bugs that lead to core dumps 20:59:12 that is because you don't code much in C I assume 20:59:23 ;P 20:59:28 could be that, but even in C not so much 20:59:39 the few segfaults that I get I can usually pin down quickly and easily 20:59:40 anyway wth did I put that music file 20:59:45 after that it's just logic errors 20:59:47 locate can't find it 20:59:55 so use find 20:59:59 but it is because /home is too big to index 21:00:06 Deewiant, yes I am doing that atm 21:01:25 hrrm not there 21:01:35 oh xine history may have it *greps* 21:01:47 aha.... on a partition not mounted by default.... 21:01:55 >_< 21:02:00 you need to get organized 21:03:02 Deewiant, aye, mount | wc -l outputs 37 21:03:14 not that 21:03:19 although, maybe that too ;-P 21:03:24 because of all bind mounts for 32-bit chroot 21:03:35 but, keep your stuff in one place 21:03:40 if it's music, it's on the music partition 21:03:41 or whatever 21:03:42 a chroot I haven't needed for over half a year 21:03:45 Deewiant, music partition? 21:03:53 I got like 100 MB of music at most 21:03:54 or music directory on the data partition 21:03:57 on the computer 21:03:58 whatever 21:04:00 in one place 21:04:33 Deewiant, well that makes no sense, some music I like is in the src partition, because it is game music from open source games I play (I use svn version of them) 21:04:41 yet I like to listen to that music anyway 21:05:06 so softlink from your music directory to there, or just copy 21:05:16 I'm short on disk space too 21:05:24 so softlink 21:05:37 too many svn checkouts 21:05:38 :P 21:05:40 So save up $200 and get a terabyte drive. :p 21:05:48 that works too. :-P 21:06:03 yeah maybe 21:06:07 200 U.S. dollars = 1 201.31664 Swedish kronor 21:06:08 hrrm 21:06:37 -!- strokov has joined. 21:06:46 -!- strokov has quit. 21:07:17 -!- ihope has changed nick to Normish. 21:07:27 NOT another bind bug 21:07:28 gah 21:07:32 -!- pikhq has left (?). 21:07:51 -!- Normish has changed nick to ihope. 21:17:28 -!- olsner has quit. 21:22:37 Deewiant, blergh 21:22:41 at FRTh 21:22:42 FRTH* 21:23:01 blergh? 21:23:08 yes blergh 21:23:14 okay. 21:23:15 anyway I can't find docs 21:23:19 Firefox can't find the server at www.google.com. 21:23:22 blergh for everyone! 21:23:24 my DNS is broken 21:23:44 hence, memorize google's IP 21:24:04 or one such IP, I guess there are many 21:24:08 209.85.129.99 21:34:19 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lolwhut?"). 21:38:47 ah dns works now 21:39:05 ok, this is strange, L that was rather complex to implement worked on first try 21:39:16 however P that looks easy, well I can't manage it 21:40:51 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:41:43 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:42:59 aha I think I got it 21:59:04 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 22:03:40 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 22:09:04 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:09:24 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 22:13:39 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:15:11 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 22:17:50 tusho, there? 22:17:55 Yes 22:17:57 tusho, what do you think of colorforth? 22:18:36 charles moore is vaguely creepy and a little insane, colorforth is kind of neat but prone to crashing (its kind of elitist - KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING!!!!!!!21212), colorforthray.info reminds me of time cube. 22:18:45 I think it sucks, because as far as I understand of how it works it discriminates colour blind people. 22:19:49 tusho, right? 22:20:11 AnMaster: lol. no. 22:20:16 no? 22:20:18 he's written a paper on colorforth using just typography 22:20:22 bold, underlined etc 22:20:25 I see 22:20:34 also, rejecting technology just because it isn't available to everyone is pretty crap thinking 22:20:39 give it a try before calling judgement like that 22:20:46 it's certainly not a sole reason for anything to suck 22:20:49 tusho, what about those that can only read using braille? 22:20:58 AnMaster: i hope you're not being serious 22:21:03 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:21:11 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:21:27 tusho, there is a school for blind ppl just a few kilometers from here, so I got quite a few blind friends 22:21:31 so yes I'm serious 22:21:33 -!- RedDak has joined. 22:21:37 yes 22:21:43 but you can obviously do typography with braille. 22:21:48 hm 22:24:45 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:25:08 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 22:29:24 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 22:33:40 -!- Judofyr has quit. 22:35:24 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:35:42 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 22:41:27 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:42:26 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 22:47:53 Bye all! 22:48:55 bye 22:48:57 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:06:15 night too 23:14:08 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 23:19:15 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:43:43 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 23:49:45 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:56:34 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:56:43 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 2008-07-17: 00:03:21 -!- Corun has joined. 00:38:08 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 00:44:08 -!- augur has joined. 00:44:27 ize back! 00:46:01 Ize in the back of ur hed! 00:46:07 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 00:47:41 zomg 00:47:44 GET OUT OF THURR 00:51:21 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:54:25 So, I'm going to make a web site where multiple people can upload separate one-track MIDIs given a predetermined key, time signature and tempo, and then it mixes them together so you can see how terrible the result is. 00:54:40 The concept was invented (probably re-invented) by some friends of mine, they call them masterpieces. 00:54:50 Anyway, I think this website deserves a time challenge. 00:55:06 e.g. how fast can I make a sort-of-complicated web site :P 01:01:27 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:06:49 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:12:23 -!- tusho has quit. 01:12:41 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 01:22:54 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:23:04 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 02:05:00 GregorR: :) 02:26:34 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 02:30:01 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 02:35:59 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 02:38:54 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 02:48:08 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 02:50:37 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 02:53:01 -!- calamari has joined. 03:05:35 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 03:05:40 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:13:41 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 03:20:26 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:20:37 -!- adu has joined. 03:21:11 oklopol? nice 03:28:06 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:44:13 oklopol isnt here :( 03:44:24 its ok 03:44:29 you are :) 03:44:59 -!- Corun has quit ("Yarr."). 03:47:11 i am! :o 04:07:10 augur: so what do you do? 04:07:32 augur: I like to learn about as many proglangs as possible 04:07:45 augur: then I focus on ones I like in detail 04:08:51 uh 04:08:59 i like to find interesting and new paradigms 04:29:23 -!- ihope has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.15/2008062306]"). 04:40:22 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:05:23 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 05:14:12 augur: my favorite so far is a certain thing I don't have a name for 05:14:30 ? 05:14:46 its like OOP only the kind that only Smalltalk and Io are good approximations to 05:15:09 its like Javascript's prototype-based classes 05:15:25 its like Python and Mathematica 05:16:01 have you used Prolog? 05:16:08 its a mind-f*** 05:16:40 i like prolog. but its nothing magical. 05:16:53 Have you heard of Meta? 05:17:00 Have you heard of Subtext? 05:17:26 Have you heard of Funge? 05:17:27 meta no, subtext maybe 05:17:29 funge, boring. 05:18:00 http://www.cwi.nl/htbin/sen1/twiki/bin/view/Meta-Environment 05:18:01 http://www.subtextual.org/ 05:18:41 augur: have you heard of the language i'm designing? 05:19:14 i dont know, whats it called 05:20:12 I don't have a name for it yet, but was thinking of calling it "uh" or "xylo" or "rose" 05:21:46 the core idea of my lang is that it is a strongly-typed language with both homogeneous and heterogeneous built-in data structures 05:22:59 the major benefit I see from this is that it allows reflection since you can represent a for-loop or a function-def as a first-class object 05:25:39 by having sets, maps, lists, ordered maps builtin, it adds new expressiveness to seemingly simple operators 05:26:46 so "case x [a: b, c: d]" would be different than "case x {a: b, c: d}" 05:33:41 -!- adu has quit. 05:35:35 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:41:54 GregorR, about MIDI: it is painful to parse 05:43:00 funge, boring. <-- stop insulting ;P 05:43:23 :P 06:40:52 AnMaster: That's why you use preexisting libraries, of course. 07:35:52 -!- CakeProphet has left (?). 07:44:41 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:22:15 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 09:07:07 GregorR, I don't know any for parsing midi 09:07:25 I would actually find one useful 09:07:35 so where can I find one? 09:27:28 http://www.flickr.com/photos/psygnisfive/tags/sky/ 09:27:44 AnMaster: http://staff.dasdeck.de/valentin/midi/ 09:27:52 AnMaster: First result searching for "PHP MIDI" 09:34:54 php ugh 09:35:02 GregorR, for use in C? 10:23:32 -!- tusho has joined. 10:40:14 GregorR: not one track 10:40:16 it should be like 10:40:19 10 second samples 10:40:28 which are looped and mixed and effect'd and repeat'd randomly 10:40:31 as the full track in the result 10:40:43 if you submitted stuff droney enough you'd end up with some weiiird ambient music :P 10:46:01 GregorR: i mean, it might actually sound good. 11:03:34 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Remote closed the previous member app"). 11:08:04 -!- olsner has joined. 11:16:09 1200 spänn för en terabyte-disk är ju helt okay 11:18:16 ... but 500-750GB seems to be cheaper per GB than the terabyte disks 11:18:28 -!- tusho has left (?). 11:18:32 -!- tusho has joined. 11:18:33 -!- tusho has left (?). 11:18:38 -!- tusho has joined. 11:32:21 tusho, already here 11:32:25 early for you 11:32:34 1200 spänn för en terabyte-disk är ju helt okay 11:32:35 ... but 500-750GB seems to be cheaper per GB than the terabyte disks 11:32:51 hrrm 11:32:57 AnMaster: same time as yesterday, roughly 11:33:01 Well, about 30 minutes earlier. 11:33:03 AnMaster: that's what *I* said :P 11:33:08 jag har bara plats för en SATA-disk till 11:33:22 aj då, då är du väl så illa tvungen att köpa den största som finns 11:33:36 well better use English or tusho will feel left out 11:33:52 quite 11:34:09 unless you replace one or more disks with a new one, or get a wardrobe computer as a receptacle for additional disks 11:34:15 in any way I would do a clean gentoo install on it, my current partitioning scheme is quite messed up 11:34:27 -!- seveninchbread has quit ("lolwhut?"). 11:34:41 olsner, I mean the mobo only got one more SATA connector 11:34:47 I think the case can hold 3 more disks 11:34:53 or maybe 2 more 11:35:17 as I already got an old PATA (80 gb) + a SATA (350 GB) 12:09:42 % uptime 12:09:42 12:09pm up 105 days 15:54, 0 users, load average: 1.59, 2.04, 2.00 12:09:44 105 days uptime 12:09:45 :D 12:10:50 14:10:42 up 228 days, 4:46, 12 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 12:10:58 228 days and completely useless (load 0). 12:11:34 And no UPS. I can pretty much use "uptime" to check when the previous blackout was. 12:12:57 Hmm, the laptop-turned-Xen-server apparently survived previous electricity problems, because it's got an uptime of 273 days now. 12:17:30 fizzie: Thing is, this computer goes on standby at night. 12:17:32 So it's kind of cheating 12:19:46 Ohhh. Yes, it's a bit easier that way. 12:20:40 fizzie: I _have_ left it on overnight. 12:20:42 And it's not that loud. 12:20:47 But, you know. I don't need it in the night. 12:20:50 Unless I'm running a torrent. 12:23:42 Yes, I was actually thinking of doing the suspend-it-at-night thing for my workstation (which is bit of loudish for bedroom use) if I ever get motivated enough to move elsewhere the one last service (postgres) running on it that the web-server-laptop depends on. 12:32:36 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 12:32:56 Might be an idea :-p 12:38:16 On the other had, the irregular cat-induced noises are more distracting than the low hum from the computer, and I still manage to sleep well enough to need two alarm clocks to actually wake up. So I guess it's not a priority. 12:38:48 Of course turning it off would conserve power and Save The Planet, I guess. 12:40:07 fizzie: But standby KILLS TREES 12:40:18 p.s. lol colloquy is using 98% of cpu brb. 12:40:21 -!- tusho has quit ("And then-"). 12:40:44 -!- tusho has joined. 12:54:24 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:55:06 back 12:55:08 turned out i'm not sure how the rewrites work 12:55:18 perhaps it's pen and paper time 12:56:15 oklopol: want another infuriating game? 12:56:27 http://www.geocities.jp/z_gundam_tanosii/home/applet/Main.html 13:15:47 what's it about?= 13:15:54 ah, loaded at last 13:17:06 tusho: that's a retarded game 13:17:15 oklopol: no it 13:17:17 's not! 13:17:22 it's super mario bros 13:17:24 but crazy 13:19:07 well yes, it's similar in graphics, just worse movement, uglier, and tons more annoying levels 13:19:20 and i don't even like smb 13:25:05 but yeah, that's kinda infuriating, another game where everything is trivial, you just don't know what you have to do, and have to explore blindly. 13:25:33 iwbtg at least offered a few minutes of challenge once you figured out what hazards the level held 13:26:17 i think i know the rewrite rules now, time to do the pythonification 13:26:43 the movement is intentional 13:28:48 and that has to do with anything because..? 13:30:17 your face 13:30:19 of course it's intentional, it's not like the code to make it slide around and always jump the same amount wrote itself 13:31:06 right, my face, forgot all about it 14:03:23 -!- Corun has joined. 14:38:15 but yeah, that's kinda infuriating, another game where everything is trivial, you just don't know what you have to do, and have to explore blindly. 14:38:18 text adventure! 14:41:20 -!- olsner has quit. 14:42:01 AnMaster: *BEEP* 14:42:04 tushoia 14:42:12 revision 5461 (C) 1987 Ifnocmo systems 14:42:15 -!- seveninchbread has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:42:24 LOADING tush.glo......................................Done 14:42:28 hahah 14:42:28 Initializing... 14:42:31 ^L^L^L 14:42:33 Room 14:42:35 You are in a room. 14:42:36 > 14:42:37 Ifnocmo? 14:42:48 I don't understand. 14:42:49 > 14:42:51 can't speel can you? 14:42:55 revision 5461 (C) 1987 Ifnocmo systems 14:43:11 Infocom stole my name, actually. 14:43:13 > 14:43:15 hah 14:43:21 look 14:43:31 You are in a room. It is infinitely large. There is a cat here. 14:43:32 > 14:43:33 KILL 14:43:37 You kill the kat. 14:43:40 DIE YOU UGLY FUCKER 14:43:42 It grows a k in the process. 14:43:43 thx. 14:43:45 Inventory: kat 14:43:46 > 14:43:56 right 14:44:07 two can play this game! 14:44:17 yes right was "go to right"... 14:44:48 unless it is one of those games using compass direction instead? 14:45:21 Correct. 14:45:21 > 14:45:38 > west 14:45:42 > right 14:45:54 You go west forever and end at the edge of the infinite room. 14:45:58 There is a model of the earth there. 14:46:19 investigate earth 14:46:59 You look carefully and can see yourself typing away on the keyboard the line "investigate earth". 14:47:06 Interestingly, a few seconds later, you see tusho typing the line: 14:47:08 You look carefully and can see yourself typing away on the keyboard the line "investigate earth". 14:47:09 > 14:47:42 > get earth 14:47:54 You pick up the earth and stick it in your endless pockets along with the kat. 14:47:54 > 14:48:11 > north 14:49:04 tusho? 14:49:06 You go north forever. 14:49:13 In front of you is everything. 14:49:13 > 14:49:19 > look 14:49:42 You look at everything. 14:49:43 -!- atsampson has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 14:49:45 It's vaguely disconcerting. 14:49:50 You are there. 14:49:51 > 14:49:57 dig 14:50:27 > dig 14:50:27 You dig everything, by which you mean the slang term for appreciating it. 14:50:31 Yourself says "Hello". 14:50:31 > 14:50:33 ahaha 14:50:46 > up 14:50:59 You fly into the sky. Yourself flies up too. 14:50:59 > 14:51:12 > east 14:51:33 You go east and bash into yourself. 14:51:40 You say "oof". Yourself says "ow". 14:51:40 > 14:51:55 > say "What is the goal of this game?" 14:52:06 "You must find that in yourself." 14:52:06 > 14:52:13 > south 14:52:23 You go south, and see a door. Yourself opens it. 14:52:23 > 14:52:25 -!- atsampson has joined. 14:52:28 > enter 14:52:42 You enter the door, and yourself follows behind. 14:52:47 You are in heaven. 14:52:48 > 14:52:53 > score 14:53:20 You have 4 points. 14:53:20 > 14:53:30 > look 14:53:44 You stub your toe. 14:53:44 > 14:54:02 eh? what do you mean? 14:54:56 .. 14:54:59 What do you mean. 14:55:20 "stub your toe"? I'm sorry but I don't understand what that means, I'm not a native speaker after all 14:55:37 Bashing your toe on the end of it, basically. 14:55:46 often happens when you trip when walking. 14:55:52 ah 14:55:59 > 14:56:59 > 14:57:24 south 14:57:48 You go south. There is a forth wall there. 14:57:49 > 14:58:05 dig 14:58:09 look 14:58:19 AnMaster: Wait, is forth wall an english idiom that you don't get 14:58:24 oh? 14:58:28 no I don't get it indeed 14:58:42 The 'forth wall' is the imaginary world seperating, e.g., characters in a TV show from the audience. 14:58:53 'breaking the forth wall' is like when a character looks at the camera and talks to the audience 14:58:58 ah 14:59:41 > 15:00:05 hrrm... 15:00:12 > inventory 15:00:24 You have a kat and the world. 15:00:47 loot world 15:01:48 You loot the world. 15:01:49 You get TNT. 15:01:50 > 15:02:18 use TNT and back away to a safe distance from the wall 15:02:35 You break it. You see two people typing at computers behind the wall. 15:02:39 You look at them. They look at you. 15:02:40 > 15:02:57 > chat 15:03:39 You turn to them. They turn to you. "Hi, I'm AnMaster" you say. "No, you're the character I'm playing. _I'm_ AnMaster." "Nuh-uh. In this game, you are your own character." 15:03:40 > 15:04:34 > chat to the other one 15:05:05 """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""stack overflow 15:05:06 > 15:05:21 what? 15:05:34 (I am the narrator, so I am relaying messages in "quotes". However, I am quoting what I am saying, which is the current line I'm typing. So, infinite loop.) 15:05:41 ahah 15:05:43 hehe 15:06:39 > 15:08:08 > quit 15:08:40 You quit the room into the portal which contains the rooms of both tusho and AnMaster. 15:08:44 > 15:09:24 > exit 15:09:27 ^C 15:09:39 You can never quit this game. 15:09:40 > 15:09:50 [Adventure Lad sez: This game is real life!] 15:13:06 > 15:35:14 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:49:54 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:50:22 hi tusho 15:50:34 aaaagh! 15:50:36 and I just came back too 16:01:41 -!- tusho has quit ("And then-"). 16:01:59 -!- tusho has joined. 16:03:51 oklopollll! 16:09:11 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 16:17:11 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:22:30 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:23:12 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 16:30:32 augurrrrrrrrrrrrr 16:30:39 hey :) 16:30:41 ::bite:: 16:30:43 hows it goin 16:31:31 chillin 16:33:45 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:34:00 -!- olsner has joined. 16:38:40 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 16:45:34 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 16:49:17 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:53:23 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 16:56:01 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:56:25 -!- olsner has quit. 16:58:40 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:01:02 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:06:12 ais523: didn't notice you there 17:06:16 i implemented eodermdrome 17:06:20 well, the part of it i know 17:06:22 oklopol: great 17:06:25 graph rewriting & parsing 17:06:48 that's probably the most important part, doing the rest of it should be easy from there 17:06:56 atm i'm using python lists of the form (node, [connection]) as the graph representation. 17:07:01 so it's slow like hell 17:07:13 but quite easy to fix, i just didn't want to make a nice interface for myself 17:07:29 I didn't expect it to be fast 17:07:32 -!- lilja has joined. 17:08:17 well it's not that slow 17:08:27 except for the fact i'm using a sucky data representation 17:08:53 but it's basically just a matter of abstracting all the weirdness away and i can change the structure easily 17:09:14 the problem is i just have that one ring example to test with 17:09:25 no idea if it works for others, as the code is very, very ugly atm :P 17:13:21 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p565155612.txt 17:13:42 looks good 17:13:46 not very readable output, i could make a parser into the letter form i guess 17:13:49 maybe I'll have to come up with an example... 17:13:59 just checked, and at least @ step 7 it seems to be correct 17:14:35 i'll prettify the code a bit now, do you read python? 17:14:48 yes, I can read python 17:14:53 I've written bits in it before 17:15:02 but I normally only use it for OO stuff, and I don't do OO very often 17:19:27 -!- ais523_ has joined. 17:19:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:19:57 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 17:20:10 [17:20] [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 21 seconds. 17:20:17 sorry about that, I'm having connection trouble 17:20:22 what did you say recently, if anything? 17:20:49 back 17:21:08 wb tusho 17:24:25 -!- timotiis has joined. 17:24:55 i didn't say anything 17:24:59 ok 17:25:03 i will now though 17:25:04 so 17:25:13 i haven't taken into account the case where 17:25:14 err 17:25:43 you have like a rewrite abcd abc == drop more than just a connection 17:25:50 i mean drop an actual node 17:26:02 the original example just had a connection drop 17:26:06 ah, ok 17:26:11 but it should be simple 17:26:25 although abcd abc would be a bit strange, it would drop a 'tail' at the end of any three connected nodes 17:26:32 because anything could link to the a, b, or c 17:26:40 but the d would have to link only to the c 17:27:12 #define cons(a,b) a,b 17:27:16 #define car(a,...) a 17:27:25 #define cdr(a,...) __VA_ARGS__ 17:27:29 :D 17:27:40 you need extra parens 17:27:41 but yeah 17:27:41 tusho: but you can't have an eval, so that's of limited use 17:27:54 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p646231414.txt 17:27:58 ais523: well cpp isn't tc 17:27:59 but it's still fun 17:28:00 besides you can do it even in C89, using nested parens 17:28:05 i don't expect you to be able to read that, but you might be able to test it 17:28:27 it's not too unreadable oklopol 17:28:29 rewrite does have some comments, they might give some hints 17:28:32 oh? 17:28:34 nice 17:28:37 oklopol: OMFG - 17:28:37 import copy 17:28:39 it's an import!!1111 17:28:40 :DDDDDDD 17:28:46 your oklo license is revoked. 17:28:47 yeah, someone slap me 17:29:22 but hey, i'm using it because i'm doing functional & imperative changes so randomly dispersed i have no idea whether i even need the copies! 17:29:30 well i do, but i didn't when i imported it 17:32:50 okay i think it can drop nodes now 17:34:55 okay, it looks like it works 17:35:50 oklopol: starting with bacadae, what happens when you use the rewrite rule ab dcbcecf? 17:36:04 rewriting abc with ab->a and ab->b give results a_c and bc, of course could both produce either result, but in practise this somewhat proves it worked 17:36:07 hmm 17:36:09 let's see 17:36:17 just coming up with another example off the top of my head 17:37:38 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p545325321.txt 17:37:43 dunno if that's correct. 17:38:10 * tusho notices the irony of supertux on os x 17:38:43 basically you have a star, and you kinda blow it up into new starts 17:38:45 *stars 17:38:46 yep 17:38:50 can you explain the format you're using? 17:38:53 yeah 17:39:05 [(Node, [Node])] 17:39:25 why are there a lot of nodes that don't link to anything? 17:39:29 each element E in the list represent the node first E connected to all of (second E) 17:39:34 err 17:39:39 because the a that's dropped 17:39:47 can be the link to what's keeping it together 17:39:53 also everything seems to be connected to [11] 17:39:55 which doesn't seem to exist 17:40:02 oh, well that is prolly wrong. 17:40:38 i'll try and debug 17:44:15 -!- timotiis_ has joined. 17:45:34 ais523: it correctly leaves some guys without connectinos 17:45:36 connections 17:45:42 ok 17:45:47 but, i need to rename shit as i rewrite 17:45:47 so 17:45:58 well anyway, i need to 17:46:02 and i have a bug there 17:46:09 forgot to rename some of the connections, so 17:46:18 the 11 you see there, is only 11 in the connection lists, and 13 as the actual node 17:48:49 ah, right, right, the problem is just that i'm doing the renamings one by one 17:49:14 so if you have *interconnected* new cells, some of them will refer to the old guys, some to the renamed ones 17:49:23 so i just need to do a separate renaming loop 17:54:48 after 1 rewrites 17:54:48 [(0, []), (2, []), (4, []), (5, []), (13, [14, 15, 16, 17]), (15, [13]), (16, [13]), (17, [13])] 17:54:56 looks correct now 17:55:02 wait 17:55:25 wait i'll show the actual result 17:55:30 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:56:21 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p535322355.txt 17:56:45 first step looks correct, unless you want it to do something cleverer in that situation, i didn't check the rest 17:56:51 that's wrong, I think 17:56:54 hmm 17:56:58 because it isn't changing the graph at all 17:57:03 you end up with the same graph on every step 17:57:10 is that so 17:57:16 just looked at the first one 17:57:17 * oklopol debugs 17:57:28 the first one is also wrong 17:57:54 umm, what should the result be then? 17:58:03 initial state: 17:58:06 [(3, [0, 2, 4, 5]), (0, [3]), (2, [3]), (4, [3]), (5, [3])] 17:58:09 rewriting from 17:58:12 [(8, [6]), (6, [8])] 17:58:15 to 17:58:18 [(11, [6, 9, 10, 12]), (6, [11]), (9, [11]), (10, [11]), (12, [11])] 17:58:21 current match: 17:58:25 [(3, 8), (0, 6)] 17:58:27 after 1 rewrites 17:58:30 [(0, []), (2, []), (4, []), (5, []), (13, [14, 15, 16, 17]), (15, [13]), (16, [13]), (17, [13])] 17:58:34 so 17:58:44 current match tells us what was matched against what 17:58:59 hmm... 17:59:03 oklopol: that match is incorrect; because the 8 is on only one side of the rewrite rule, it's not allowed to match 3 because they have different degrees 17:59:17 oh? 17:59:26 i see, didn't know that 17:59:29 things on both sides of the rewrite rule can have extra connections 17:59:33 things on only one side can't have 17:59:40 I think I said this before, but possibly I wasn't clear 17:59:43 okay, that's fixable 17:59:51 well i missed all your rewriting explanations 17:59:54 ah, ok 18:00:03 just took the obvious approach 18:00:06 and I need to get around to writing a spec and some examples 18:00:10 but yeah, that's an obvious enhancement 18:00:13 ya 18:00:19 i'll fix that, should be a simple job 18:03:35 I'll spec up the I/O too while I'm at it 18:07:40 hi ais523 18:07:58 hi AnMaster 18:08:19 ais523, anything you wish to speak about? 18:08:22 cfunge or such 18:08:26 not immediately 18:10:48 -!- timotiis_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:16:11 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:17:49 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p311541526.txt 18:17:58 ais523: what about this one? in case you can see right away 18:18:00 i'd have to draw 18:18:14 well i'll drawify 18:19:47 it fails. 18:19:48 darn 18:20:25 not much though 18:20:36 and the match is correct 18:21:08 it seems 3 is, for some reason, renamed to 14 18:24:13 how about now? http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p463545331.txt 18:24:21 hehe 18:24:24 forgot debug info there :P 18:24:35 also a typo in the debug info. 18:24:48 that looks right 18:24:50 but i now realize that's almost crucial 18:24:55 good, good 18:25:01 let's make sure the old one still works :) 18:28:02 lol, actually seems the match now fails for that one. 18:28:34 i'll debug, damn i wish i wasn't this stubborn, i could just have written the program well-structured to begin with :P 18:31:11 oklopol: a well-structured oklopol program would be weird 18:31:15 but perhaps fun 18:31:35 classes when appropriate, legible names, use of the standard library features, whitespace in the right places... 18:31:37 it'll never happen 18:31:37 :p 18:31:57 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:32:07 bye tusho... 18:32:09 oh actually once again the actual program logic was correct, i just failed to call the functions right \o/. 18:32:13 -!- tusho has joined. 18:32:14 wb tusho 18:32:17 specifically 18:32:25 if you rewrite from A to B 18:32:29 you need the same namespace for them 18:32:39 i forgot to pass the same namespace, passed the empty dict 18:33:06 oklopol: one thing which would be nice but not necessary would be to put the graphs back into eodermdrome-format for printing 18:33:10 classes when appropriate, legible names, use of the standard library features, whitespace in the right places... 18:33:12 yay! 18:33:13 ;P 18:33:22 ais523: i know, wondered whether i should do that 18:33:37 tusho: i actually use classes quite a lot 18:33:48 but true, not always where appropriate 18:33:52 makes it too easy 18:33:53 oklopol: well yeah, but not very consistently and you have loads of standalone functions operating on classes 18:33:55 and too verbose 18:33:55 which is weird :p 18:33:59 yeah 18:34:09 also, i think a more legible oklo program could actually be shorted 18:34:11 *shorter 18:34:18 due to the whole 'pillage the standard library' thing 18:34:33 usually i just import functions, my own random shit library 18:34:43 yes, this is hypothetical 18:34:44 :p 18:35:16 whitespace will indeed probably never happen 18:35:23 why? 18:35:23 in python, that is, gets so ugly 18:35:29 oklopol, you code in python right? 18:35:32 usually 18:35:41 so your indention whitespaces will be right at least? 18:35:42 i don't like it when there are empty spots. 18:35:55 well yes 18:35:58 oklopol, foo(bar, quux) 18:36:02 space should be there 18:36:04 ;P 18:36:06 i always do indentation correct, python has taught me that 18:36:09 god no 18:36:14 that looks awful 18:36:14 why not? 18:36:17 ... 18:36:30 dunno, why yes? 18:36:31 oklopol, why does it "looks awful" 18:36:44 objectively 18:36:48 it is more readable 18:36:49 err, because there isn't a space between foo and bar anywhere, i guess 18:36:54 makes it look kinda unbalanced. 18:37:03 well do GNU style then: 18:37:07 foo (bar, quux) 18:37:13 "objectively, it is more readable"? 18:37:26 that's definitely subjective 18:37:34 oklopol, I remember reading some paper on it 18:37:38 I reserve a space between foo and the rest for when foo is a keyword 18:37:40 years ago 18:37:54 Deewiant, as in sizeof? 18:37:54 AnMaster: some papers suck 18:38:03 or for, while, whatever... 18:38:09 oklopol, a scientific studdy yes 18:38:16 while (x); but foo(x); 18:38:18 Deewiant, yes I do put in a space for if/while and such 18:38:23 but not for sizeof() 18:38:41 AnMaster: i don't really believe in stuff that stuff can inherently be easier to read. 18:38:47 i can get used to anything in about a day 18:38:58 but whatever, who cares about this shit 18:39:03 oklopol, well then you can get used to the style I suggest too ;P 18:39:06 whitespace is trivial to add yourself 18:39:10 AnMaster: but it's more work for him 18:39:14 hm 18:39:14 AnMaster: or you can get used to mine. 18:39:15 heh 18:39:34 or we can do what i was originally doing: not read each others code :) 18:39:38 oklopol, not really, because I do believe that certain stuff "can inherently be easier to read" 18:39:48 well have fun believing 18:40:06 oklopol, compare a hex dump of machine code to asm 18:40:09 which is easier to read? 18:40:16 -!- Corun has joined. 18:40:23 ais523: more examples / IO rules done soon? 18:40:30 oklopol, ? 18:40:34 I was working on something else 18:40:46 oklopol, don't tell me they are the same, because then you are lying 18:40:48 AnMaster: okay, i agree some structures of whole programs are easier to navigate within. 18:40:49 but the IO rules are pretty simple: 18:40:54 than others 18:41:04 rules can have a set of characters in parens before or after them 18:41:08 or both 18:41:10 oklopol, and indention is better than all the code on one line? 18:41:26 as in the whole file on one line 18:41:30 a rewrite rule with chars in parens before it can only be applied by removing one of those chars from the start of stdin 18:41:37 duh, you can't navigate if there isn't an easy way to find where logical lines begin or end 18:41:45 and a rewrite rule with a char in parens after it writes that char to stdout when it's applied 18:42:03 and ofc there can be more than one rewrite rule, and they run like in Thue, that is whichever rule matches will run 18:42:30 oklopol, and what about newlines but no indention, just lots of nested { } but no indention change at all? 18:42:43 (this doesn't apply to python of course) 18:42:51 AnMaster: this is all a navigational issue. 18:42:51 oklopol: just grep for DO or PLEASE 18:42:58 -!- lilja has quit ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'"). 18:42:59 I believe that {} always implies indentation, but just stuff like if/for/while necessarily doesn't 18:43:01 i believe some structures are easier to navigate through 18:43:17 oklopol, inherently easier? 18:43:49 well yes, but this is an algorithmic difference; not something people are born with, but something you get for any visual system. 18:43:52 Deewiant, well C doesn't force you to indent 18:43:57 in fact only python does afaik 18:44:10 yes, and I find it annoying that python does 18:45:32 bah 18:45:40 I support that bah... 18:45:56 bahs for everyone 18:45:58 well, I like to not be able to indent sometimes 18:46:16 before python, i didn't indent at all, thought indenting was lame 18:46:17 I like the Haskell method: pretty indentation-based blocks, but you can just use { } instead if you prefer 18:46:26 later, i've realized it actually is handier 18:46:36 lame :-D 18:46:56 well yeah, you shouldn't make programming too easy for yourself :D 18:47:04 >_< 18:47:15 or, well, easy for others to read, i guess that was another issue 18:47:19 the thing that annoys me about indented code is that the indentation doesn't really help with very long block 18:47:21 s/$/s/ 18:47:32 it always helps 18:47:33 haskell does it pretty prefectly 18:47:37 it's just diminishing returns 18:47:55 I like the Haskell method: pretty indentation-based blocks, but you can just use { } instead if you prefer <-- sounds very nice 18:48:26 yes 18:48:31 DM also does that, iirc 18:48:47 dm? 18:49:09 dangermouse? 18:49:10 the thing that annoys me about indented code is that the indentation doesn't really help with very long block <-- it doesn't help as much you mean?, well... I got to say long blocks should be refactored when possible 18:49:25 well, yes 18:49:35 I mean it's no good for visual matching of the start and end of a block if you have to scroll 18:50:12 yes which is why you shouldn't have a block longer than about 30 lines if you can avoid it 18:50:16 there are exceptions 18:50:22 for example a huge switch case 18:50:25 DM = DreamMaker language 18:50:30 It's used by BYOND 18:50:33 Sgeo, and wtf is that? 18:50:35 BYOND? 18:50:44 developer.byond.com 18:50:49 Build Your Own Net Dream 18:50:54 err.. !? 18:51:06 byond.com it lets people make their own 2d tile-based-ish games somewhat easily 18:51:13 Windows-only though :( 18:51:20 sigh. not yet another toolkit for such 18:51:21 And not Free, but it is free 18:53:04 i recall making stuff in games factory 18:53:07 god that was shitty 18:53:32 is that the thing with little 32x32 pictures flying around? 18:53:45 gf? 18:53:52 or byond 18:54:54 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:54:55 gf let you have pictures of any sizes, and calculated normals from the drawings quite well 18:55:18 byond uses icons of fixed size 18:56:24 although the collisions did fail especially with a larger amount of objects 18:56:33 not that my games usually work any better in that sense :P 18:57:00 *occasionally 18:57:23 the best is to code it in a real language 18:57:28 say, C or even C++ 18:57:32 ais523: AnMaster distracted me and i'm too lazy to scroll up, so i'll go over what i think i recall you said 18:57:33 so 18:57:40 AnMaster: it's not a very good troll any more. 18:57:40 ()ab->rf would 18:57:42 you can stop saying 18:57:52 err... 18:57:52 tusho, well compared to game factory 18:57:53 or such 18:57:54 ... 18:57:57 "AHA! But I'll end this discussion with: Your language is not real and lazy. C and C++ winzorz!!12121123123123817812381689`923`9223" 18:57:58 tusho, read before you troll 18:58:01 actually i have little idea 18:58:04 . 18:58:06 oklopol: never work because there's nothing in parens 18:58:06 tusho, I agree python would work too 18:58:07 AnMaster: 'the best is to code it in a real language' 18:58:08 that would be enough 18:58:10 (efg) abc rf 18:58:12 'say, C or even C++' = useless 18:58:19 ais523: can you go over the semantics once more? 18:58:23 tusho, they were just examples 18:58:31 would replace abc with rf (i.e. delete it and create a two-element graph elsewhere) if e, f, or g was next on the input string 18:58:36 tusho, sorry I forgot: "INCLUDING BUT LIMITED TO" 18:58:45 I didn't know I would have to write a legal document... 18:58:47 but limited to, yeah. 18:58:50 :) 18:58:51 err 18:58:56 NOT LIMITED TO. 18:58:58 oklopol: ok, something in parens before a rule means that one of those characters has to be on stdin for the rule to match (the character is removed afterwards) 18:59:02 see I suck I writing legalspeak 18:59:04 tusho, :P 18:59:07 oklopol: and something in parens after a rule is printed out whenever the rule matches 18:59:09 so I'd rather not 18:59:47 ais523: so basically all this happens at a separate level from the subst-engine 18:59:52 yes 18:59:57 it's just preconditions and side effects 19:00:12 also, a program is just multiple rules like that 19:00:23 and they can be matched whenever they match 19:00:24 like Thue 19:00:29 \n-separated= 19:00:30 s/matched/used/ 19:00:30 ? 19:00:44 oklopol: I was going to have whitespace-separated, but that's ambiguous with the parens 19:00:50 so you could write eodermdrome poetry 19:00:50 yes 19:00:56 ya. 19:01:01 maybe output should be parens in the middle of a rule 19:01:05 then it's unambiguous 19:01:47 or just, like, require them everywhere, and have . be the null requirement / null input 19:01:57 err. 19:02:03 null input / output, that is 19:02:17 a bit ugly, probably, most of the time you won't be doing I/O 19:02:23 and presumably, a program ends when no rules match 19:02:24 but yeah, this is just bikeshedding, if i'm using the term correctly 19:02:55 right there's prolly be like a few rules that do the actual io 19:03:38 btw looks like it's IO-complete in that you can have an arbitrary function between I and O 19:03:42 is that the case? 19:04:10 say you have a separate input for each char, and a separate output for each char 19:04:29 since you can also have the arbitrary rule, you can do anything between taking the inputs 19:04:52 output can be anything quite trivially 19:06:11 hmm, actually... 19:06:18 let's say it's IO-complete 19:06:34 you have to have all inputs ready and usable all the time 19:06:49 so it's possible they all trigger at once, and you can't know the order in which the inputs came 19:07:05 oklopol: no, they only trigger on the first char of stdin 19:07:09 because it's not specified whether any possible locking will reach the other input nodes before the next input is taken 19:07:12 and remove the char when they trigger 19:07:20 ais523: yes, that's not what i said 19:07:22 i meean 19:07:23 *mean 19:07:24 so I think it's IO-complete 19:07:37 let's say you need to read a's and b's, and the order is important 19:07:47 then you have a rule marked (a) that makes a change 19:07:54 now you need to have your program in a state where it can read either 19:07:54 and a rule marked (b) that changes the same thing a different way 19:08:10 it can flunctuate between these two states, but i think the problem still occurs 19:08:15 the problem is... 19:08:17 err... 19:08:20 say a comes first 19:08:24 hmm 19:08:57 actually, if it flunctuates, and it's in the a state, getting the a in would prolly trigger the lock on taking b as input, before the state could fluctuate to taking b in 19:09:10 *fluctuate/flunctuate everywhere, i don't remember which it is 19:09:22 fluctuate's the real world 19:09:29 s/world/word/ 19:09:31 well i remember it's the first, but i didn't when i wrote that 19:09:34 ya 19:09:50 anyway, forget what i said there, i'm pretty sure it's io complete too, now. 19:09:53 let me see if I can come up with an example which would record the sequence of a and b 19:09:56 so I think it's IO-complete 19:09:59 go for it 19:09:59 what does that mean? 19:10:01 STDIO? 19:10:03 File IO? 19:10:06 Network IO? 19:10:13 AnMaster: like Brainfuck, can manage arbitrary IO on stdin and stdout 19:10:17 AnMaster: that it can input to output through any function 19:10:20 ah STDIO then 19:10:31 *map input to output 19:10:37 AnMaster: no 19:10:38 AnMaster: different concept 19:10:45 if you have "..." outputs ... 19:10:47 it's not IO-complete 19:10:48 we're higher up here :P 19:10:51 you can't write a fibonacci prorgam 19:11:36 starting with abcdefgab, you can use (a) ab acdaf (b) ab acdeaf 19:11:43 wait 19:11:52 (a) ab acdafg (b) ab acdeafg 19:12:02 basically, for every function F from strings to strings, a program can be written to map input to output through the function F 19:12:09 means IO-completeness 19:12:31 yes, that's it 19:12:38 well, every computable function 19:12:39 ais523: why abcdefgab, why not just abcdefga? 19:12:58 and yeah, every computable function 19:13:01 oklopol: giving it a tail to start with 19:13:12 err, i think those are equivalent 19:13:13 it works by extending the tail, putting triangles and squares on it for a and b 19:13:19 whoops 19:13:22 I meant abcdefgah 19:13:27 yeah, thought so 19:13:46 that even ends with gah 19:14:13 ais523: that says nothing about order 19:14:33 oklopol: what, you mean order on the input? 19:14:38 ababbbab will give an equivalent result to what aaabbbbb gives 19:14:44 well, equivalent set of possible results 19:14:55 ais523: well yeah, that was what my point above was about 19:15:14 oklopol: no, they give different results 19:15:29 at least with my corrected version 19:15:29 hmm, well yeah, but there are results both can give 19:15:33 hmm 19:15:34 (a) ab acdafg (b) ab acdeafg 19:15:39 oklopol: I don't think there are 19:15:42 why not try it? 19:15:52 i haven't added input 19:15:59 but yeah 19:16:03 i could on paper 19:16:55 ais523: well 19:17:06 let's say you have "ab" @ stdin 19:17:14 yes 19:17:19 then the first rule can run 19:17:26 but the second rule can't, because there isn't a b at the start of stdin 19:17:32 now you take two random adjacent nodes in the ring 19:17:44 oklopol: ab doesn't mean two random adjacent nodes! 19:17:45 these random nodes can be the exact same ones with input ba too 19:17:47 the b isn't in the second string 19:17:55 so it only matches a node of degree 1 19:17:57 * oklopol slaps head 19:18:14 ais523, btw my CFFI won't work but now I see how I could make it work 19:18:26 yes, yes, i corrected your typo, so it's only fair you correct my massive semantical error :P 19:18:29 will need a few days work on the specs though (no pun intended) 19:18:41 -!- cherez has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:18:57 -!- cherez has joined. 19:19:33 and the ab after the first sub will again only match the tail 19:19:37 god i'm stupid. 19:19:52 yes, that's how it works 19:20:17 although i do think this kind of stuff is tons easier to write than read 19:20:32 probably 19:20:34 like Unlambda 19:20:37 ya 19:20:56 shop closes soon, need to visit it now 19:21:12 i'll add io tonight, and make the actual interp, that should be quite trivial 19:21:29 decide on the syntax before that, if you have the time 19:21:31 -> 19:21:57 ok 19:24:43 -!- olsner has joined. 19:32:18 god i love graphs 19:32:53 i need to make something to draw them up for me, might be nice to make a graphical IDE to eodermdrome. 19:32:59 not many tarpits have one :D 19:33:29 of course the ascii part of it is the point 19:33:31 -!- atsampson has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:33:31 but anyway 19:33:39 -!- atsampson has joined. 19:34:28 i've always considered graph rewriting something very fundamental and conceptually beautiful, but i now realize this is actually the first time i implement it, or even see it in action, except for manual runs 19:34:57 we've played a graph rewriting game with a few friends, but that got a bit too complex 19:36:10 also another idea i had, i should make something that converts a graphica graph, a graph with values and tags for nodes, and tags for the possibly directed connections 19:36:14 into 19:36:28 an undirected graph with no extra info 19:36:45 and back, of course 19:37:14 so that you'd encode all the direction data, and contents of the nodes into pure graph structures 19:37:32 graphica just has numbers and lists 19:37:55 as data types 19:38:22 well actually my implementation also has strings, but you can't see that anyway 19:38:32 ais523: done with syntax possible? 19:38:46 i'm going to leave soon, for about an hour 19:38:59 and i imagine you'll be gone just before i get back :P 19:39:12 oklopol: I suggest whitespace-delimited, input in parens before a command, output in parens inside a command 19:39:12 so, if you finish it, leave a link or something behind 19:39:15 that's unambiguous 19:39:23 yes 19:39:28 i like it 19:39:30 and a command is the two halves of the rewrite rule separated by whitespace 19:39:43 also you can have input and output on the same command if you like 19:39:52 and closing paren must be the first char 19:39:57 if it's any of the chars given 19:40:03 huh? 19:40:06 ah. 19:40:12 right, nice 19:40:14 like in [] in regexes 19:40:23 yeah. output is limited by that ofc 19:40:30 though 19:40:40 i mean 19:40:47 i need to make something to draw them up for me, might be nice to make a graphical IDE to eodermdrome. 19:40:47 not many tarpits have one :D 19:40:48 heheh 19:40:52 limited as in, makes some stuff harder. 19:41:09 not limited as in makes it non io-complete 19:41:20 except for characters you can't write on the prog code 19:41:39 ais523, does the language have comments? 19:41:43 and where are the specs.. 19:41:53 ,, is a comment 19:42:00 , comment in between these , 19:42:03 ah 19:42:04 ok 19:42:09 AnMaster: specs are this channel 19:42:13 hehe :P 19:42:14 but I should write them up sometime 19:42:18 ais523, good :) 19:42:21 tomorrow? 19:43:05 AnMaster: maybe 19:43:13 ais523: you'll get the full interp tomorrow, unless i'm given an excessive amount of sexual tasks or something tonight 19:43:18 see ya all -> 19:43:19 is offsetof() standard C? 19:43:22 -!- oklopol has quit (Client Quit). 19:43:25 no 19:43:32 )(/%=(/% 19:43:45 or hmm, it might be a macro somewhere actually 19:43:49 Deewiant, does all major implementations have? 19:43:54 why do you need it, anyway 19:43:57 AnMaster: it's C99 I think 19:44:18 evidently it's C90: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offsetof 19:44:20 anyway it's possible to write it yourself, just difficult 19:44:27 and exactly 19:44:31 except that I'd have said it's trivial :-P 19:44:52 ah 19:45:25 AnMaster: you can write it yourself 19:45:36 #define offsetof(st, m) ( (char *)&((st *)(0))->m - (char *)&((st *)(0)) ) 19:45:36 it's trivial, it's trivial 19:45:37 :P 19:45:45 tusho: you just copied that off Wikipedia 19:45:48 besides it doesn't always work 19:45:55 why not 19:45:56 that depends on the way pointers are implemented 19:46:03 what about typeof(), that is a GCC extension right? 19:46:06 how so 19:46:07 Deewiant: because adding offsets to NULL isn't defined on some architectures 19:46:09 AnMaster: yes 19:46:09 AnMaster: yes 19:46:12 hrrm 19:46:36 ais523: wow, what kind of architectures 19:46:49 Deewiant: all the ones on which NULL is a special value and isn't just some value in memory 19:47:11 i.e. the ones that represent NULL differently from all other pointers, think struct pointer {void* address, bool isnull} 19:47:21 wow 19:47:25 what arches does that? 19:47:28 well, surely the compiler can anyway tell that that boils down to essentially the offset of ->m 19:47:36 Deewiant: if it could 19:47:38 then it'd support offsetof 19:47:54 "support offsetof"? what do you mean 19:48:13 it would be possible to implement offsetof still, just more difficult 19:48:20 tusho: it still can support offsetof, you just have to implement it differently 19:48:20 no, it'd be just as easy 19:48:24 what i mean is 19:48:28 they'd implement is natively 19:48:29 the difference would be that you have to give it a variable 19:48:30 if they were clever enough to tell 19:48:35 well sure 19:48:38 but that'd be a compiler extension 19:48:42 Deewiant: I agree that when you have variables it's easy 19:48:50 and since this is C, we do have variables. :-) 19:48:58 gcc has __builtin_offsetof 19:49:06 where is oklopol :< 19:49:10 use that, it's probably more optimal!! 19:49:14 see ya all -> 19:49:17 * oklopol has quit (Client Quit) 19:49:20 Deewiant, duh :P 19:49:24 Deewiant, stop being an idiot 19:49:33 Deewiant, it is just for those arches 19:49:34 ~ 19:49:34 Deewiant: it's 7 seconds faster 19:49:43 (so it actually takes -7 seconds to run) 19:49:50 over 9000 times faster 19:49:53 you LOSE 7 seconds running time 19:49:57 just by including it in your program! 19:49:58 Deewiant, also there is another case where that is useful: macros can evaluate parameters more than once 19:50:00 remember that 19:50:14 AnMaster: quick, make a file consisting of 1000000000000 __builtin_offsetof's 19:50:17 unless it's documented that they don't 19:50:24 cfunge will finish running before it's even started! 19:50:24 Deewiant, http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Offsetof.html#Offsetof 19:50:43 stop being idiots you two 19:50:44 and, in the case of offsetof, why would you give it anything in which how many times it's evaluated matters 19:50:52 Deewiant, no reason 19:51:04 i'd comment that i'm not being an idiot and arguably the way you optimise cfunge is more idiotic 19:51:05 but i won't 19:51:06 :) 19:51:08 yeah, so in this case it doesn't matter at all 19:51:19 anyway the only issue here was if offsetof() was standard C or not 19:51:22 but it is standard 19:51:24 so :) 19:51:30 no it's not 19:51:34 :| 19:51:34 ah 19:51:35 yes it is 19:51:35 yes it is 19:51:36 :P 19:51:38 it is... 19:51:40 >_< 19:51:50 >_< 19:51:53 our eyes hurt 19:51:56 why? 19:52:08 mine don't 19:52:21 <>_<> 19:52:34 >>_<< 19:52:43 ><_>< 19:52:46 <<_>> 19:52:58 >>_>> 19:53:02 <<_<< 19:53:05 ><_<< 19:53:11 <<_<> 19:53:11 <>_<> 19:53:19 tusho, that one has been done... 19:53:22 yes 19:53:26 i felt like breaking it 19:53:27 COMBO BREAKER!! 19:53:32 :/ 19:53:34 and yeah 19:53:35 ROUND 2 19:53:35 <>_>< 19:53:41 >_< 19:53:49 fail 19:53:51 ~_~ 19:54:04 ø–ø 19:54:09 ö_ö 19:54:10 ¬…¬ 19:54:19 »_« 19:54:20 µ_µ 19:54:20 ç≈ç 19:54:28 ∑_∑ 19:54:37 o¸o 19:54:44 ô†ô 19:54:46 $\inf\_\inf$ 19:54:53 ×_× 19:54:54 -!- lilja has joined. 19:55:04 Deewiant, hey TeX is fun :P 19:55:15 ›_‹ 19:55:20 ≥_≤ 19:55:27 ≥≤ 19:55:39 ∞_∞ 19:55:41 ≤≥ 19:55:42 ≤_≥ 19:55:43 o§o 19:55:43 ≤__≥ 19:55:45 ≤___≥ 19:55:50 anyway 19:55:54 ∞_∞ 19:55:59 I already did that one... 19:56:02 $\inf\_\inf$ 19:56:04 see? 19:58:12 AnMaster: you did it in tex. 19:58:20 ·‚· 19:58:27 yes and? 19:58:29 ⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄ 19:58:37 °‹‡°· °‚·°—‚‚‚‚±—°°·‡⁄ ‚·°™⁄fl‡fifi⁄™‹›fi 19:58:43 ŒËÈ„ŒÊÁ„ÊÁ‰„ËÁÊŒ„‰ÈËÁÁÁÁÈØ∏ÈØ∏”ØØ”’∏”’”’ 19:58:43 ⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄⁄ 19:58:43 err? 19:58:45 that's just a lot of /? 19:58:48 ÅÍÓÌÏÌÅÍÎÌÓÔJHDKJFHÒÔÒÚÍÅÚÚÆÒÚÆ 19:58:49 what is that good for 19:58:53 ÛÛÇı◊ÙÇıˆÇ˜ˆı˜ˆ¯ˆ¯˜˜˜ˆ˘¯˜¯˘¿˘¯¿¿˘ 19:59:01 AnMaster: Not /. ⁄. 19:59:09 they look the same here 19:59:11 ............ 19:59:15 1/3. 1⁄3 19:59:17 compare 19:59:21 the same 19:59:23 exactly 19:59:29 not exactly the same, AnMaster. 19:59:30 except one got a . 19:59:31 ... 19:59:33 after it 19:59:42 ⁄ 19:59:44 / 19:59:45 / 19:59:47 ⁄ 19:59:48 / 19:59:49 tusho, they are exactly the same in bitstream vera sans 19:59:49 compare. 19:59:56 a/b 19:59:57 a⁄b 20:00:01 tusho, they are exactly the same in bitstream vera sans 20:00:09 then bitstream vera sans is broken. 20:00:18 Bitstream Vera Sans Mono 9 20:00:25 well duh 20:00:26 monospaced 20:00:30 yes 20:00:33 of course I sue that on irc 20:00:34 ... 20:00:45 I'm using Dejavu Sans Mono and I just get boxes for the latter :-/ 20:00:48 I wouldn't use a variable font width in my terminal would I 20:00:58 ˘¯¯¯˜¯˘ˆ¯˘˜ 20:00:59 Deewiant, well dejavu got it here too 20:01:38 on linux, programs can generally fill in from other fonts 20:01:40 Deewiant, try a more recent version of dejvavu? 20:01:43 or it depends on the program I guess 20:01:46 I have the most recent 20:01:49 hrrm 20:01:53 Deewiant, this is konsole 20:01:55 on windows, firefox at least does it 20:02:00 but PuTTY doesn't seem to 20:02:07 Ò˜ÍÚÅˆËÈ„Ó·°ÊÍÎ87Y*‡Á*&Y*¥•¶¥•¶¥•¶¥ª•¨ªº^ºª¡`˚ªº˚ 20:02:09 so if it's not in the font, it just displays a box 20:02:11 same result in the xchat on the same bnc 20:02:16 same font there 20:02:40 like said, on linux most programs do it, on windows I'm not sure but at least PuTTY doesn't. :-P 20:02:44 k 20:02:53 Deewiant, rather GTK and KDE does it 20:02:58 but maybe not other onew 20:02:59 ones* 20:03:11 tusho, they differ in the monospaced courier new btw 20:03:12 maybe, I don't know at what level this kind of thing would happen 20:03:14 slightly 20:03:29 Deewiant, the font engine I guess 20:03:38 which for gtk apps would be pango 20:03:44 for KDE I think it is in QT 20:03:47 as well as for firefox. 20:04:10 Deewiant, I do sometimes get boxes even here though 20:04:19 or was it cairo? well, whatever 20:04:32 um cairo draws images iirc 20:04:40 Description: A vector graphics library with cross-device output support 20:04:42 that's cairo 20:04:49 [I] x11-libs/pango 20:04:51 Description: Text rendering and layout library 20:08:32 -!- Corun has joined. 20:14:01 oklo is gone? did we have to remove him from the channel to put him in the topic? 20:15:15 olsner: yes 20:15:19 it was painful 20:15:24 he screamed for days 20:15:27 but it had to be done 20:15:52 well, I understand your reasoning, but isn't he less fun in the topic than in the channel? 20:16:09 you'd think, but just wait until he wakes up 20:16:19 the topic will be more fun than that time I wrote a bot that did rule 101 in the topic. 20:17:26 tusho, rule 101? 20:17:31 rule 101? is that one of the TC ones? 20:17:34 cellular automata, dude 20:17:37 olsner: yuppers 20:17:37 ah 20:17:44 i also wrote a bot that made the topic into a ticker 20:17:45 tusho: nicers 20:17:47 hello world 20:17:50 dhello worl 20:17:50 tusho, where are these rules classified? 20:17:52 ldhello wor 20:17:54 rldhello wo 20:17:56 orldhello w 20:17:58 etc 20:18:03 and a 'folder' 20:18:05 hello world 20:18:07 hello wordl 20:18:11 hello wodlr 20:18:13 hello wdlro 20:18:15 hello dlrow 20:18:18 hellodlrow 20:18:21 helldlrow o 20:18:24 heldlrow ol 20:18:27 hedlrow oll 20:18:29 hdlrow olle 20:18:31 dlrow olleh 20:18:36 repeat ad infinitum 20:18:51 tusho, where are the rules like rule 101 classified? 20:19:12 AnMaster: google 20:21:33 it's kind of like an 8-dimensional categorization of the possible cellular automaton rules 20:27:02 olsner: what do you mean? 20:28:08 lilja: nah, just obfuscating 20:28:38 hrrr 20:56:06 -!- pikhq has left (?). 20:56:36 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:58:00 i was thinking about something like, you have a global time, and call/cc, a continuation will carry the time stamp of whenever it was created, and the global time will tick each time something is called, and evaluation order is explicit 20:58:11 hi oklopol 20:58:23 now, you can have conditions on the timestamps 20:58:23 so 20:58:42 hi ais523 20:59:04 oklopol: having fun in the topic, are we? 20:59:27 so that you get like, say, five continuations in, and if the first is earlier than the second, then the third is called with the fifth, otherwise the forth is called with the fifth 20:59:55 also i thought it was the fourth wall 21:00:22 olsner: yes, very 21:00:51 now say you could output a continuation as its timestamp 21:00:52 lol 21:00:53 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mwKq7_JlS8 21:00:57 12 year old explaining jQuery 21:01:04 must be Tusho :D 21:01:07 ? 21:01:11 augur: that link is so old he's probably died of age 21:01:12 oh 21:01:13 youre 12 and a total jQuery whore 21:01:13 I saw that ages ago 21:01:14 ha 21:01:42 i recall tusho calling me names for not having seen it about a year ago when he showed it to me 21:01:48 oh god this is so funny 21:01:54 oklopol: no i didn't 21:01:59 hes so adorable! 21:02:02 of course no name calling was actually present, and it was less than a year ago, but you get my point 21:02:05 tusho: indeed you didn't 21:02:05 augur: he's not a very good speaker is he 21:02:08 um, er, uhhhh 21:02:08 that's irrelevant 21:02:14 no hes not 21:02:17 i'd be worse 21:02:19 hes horrible 21:02:19 id be like 21:02:22 21:02:23 hi 21:02:24 er 21:02:25 can i go now 21:02:35 im not watching this, even if he explains lots 21:02:41 yeah, tusho's the master of adorable 21:03:00 he needs to relax 21:03:07 someone should've gotten high with him before he went on stage 21:03:30 it'd been more awesome if he was a star presenter ala presentation zen stuff 21:03:39 yeah it's not good if kids get high alone 21:03:48 they shuold always have their parents with them 21:03:51 *should 21:04:16 what's jquery? in 7 words 21:04:29 oklopol: javascript library 21:04:29 a really shitty javascript framework tusho loves. 21:04:34 does ajax and dom manipulation 21:04:39 and augur hates it because he can't get it working 21:04:42 i didn't actually watch that when tusho showed it, just memorized the beginning so i could tell people it's old! 21:04:46 its not me who cant get it working 21:04:50 and calls its writer an idiot because he can't personally get it working 21:04:58 uh 21:05:07 ive never even bothered to touch it 21:05:17 its the ressig's own examples that dont work 21:05:43 when the person who designed it cant make his shit work in Safari or Firefox, then I'm not going to give it much attention. 21:06:49 * tusho rolls eyes 21:06:52 he works for mozilla. 21:06:56 of course it works in firefox. 21:07:01 thats even worse 21:07:05 since ive seen it NOT work in FF. 21:07:25 i guess the thousands of people using jquery in ff and safari are just hallucinating huh 21:07:42 and because you, one person, can't get it working in either, it's obviously totally broken and shit in both and could not possibly be a problem at your end 21:07:45 i dont know, i cant speak for thousands of people that i'm not. 21:08:07 but i can only make judgements based on my experience. 21:08:07 Try other sites that use jquery? 21:08:23 im not saying nothing in jQuery works, mind you 21:08:44 but that its unnecessarily buggy. 21:08:50 i'm saying that "augur's computer is made out of sticks and rocks so its FF is different from everyone else's" 21:08:58 ais523, hm updated IFFI yet? 21:09:00 to work? 21:09:05 AnMaster: no, sorry 21:09:18 ais523, any other work in C-INTERCAL? 21:09:24 where is all the flamewar, people 21:09:25 no, I've been doing other things 21:09:28 ICFP, then sleeping 21:09:29 I still look forward to seeing a C/CLC-INTERCAL FFI 21:09:31 at some point 21:09:33 how old was tusho again, augur?' 21:09:35 :P 21:09:43 my memory's a bit fuzzy 21:09:47 25 and hot as fuck 21:09:53 lol wot 21:10:26 you know its true! 21:10:56 i think theres a t-shirt hell shirt that says 21:11:05 "I swear officer, I didn't know she was 13!" 21:11:42 *12 21:11:51 does the t-shirt say 12? 21:11:52 whatever 21:12:04 also, bash 21:12:07 augur: does the t-shirt say that tusho's female? 21:12:22 "Women try to act all mature, but then you stick your cock up their ass and they're like, 'I'm only 13!!!'" 21:12:22 also, zsh 21:12:37 zsh.org is not a site of funny quotes from irc. 21:12:44 nor is bash.org 21:12:46 oh snap 21:12:58 hah 21:13:01 ksh? 21:13:14 http://youtube.com/watch?v=TcxpbhM0DaA 21:13:44 i was recently in germany and i can confirm that all germans are exactly like that. 21:15:29 anyone look at my continuation idea? 21:15:49 oklopol: I did, it reminded me a bit of Feather and a bit of TwoDucks 21:15:53 augur, I don't get it... 21:16:09 anmaster: what? 21:16:14 http://youtube.com/watch?v=TcxpbhM0DaA 21:16:34 tusho: oh snap 21:16:52 ais523: well they're just continuations though, there can be no paradoxes or anything 21:17:03 augur, context? 21:17:15 oh snap 21:17:39 oklopol: yes, I know, but that sort of lang is good for implementing Feather in 21:17:59 augur, context of video 21:18:00 ... 21:18:05 oh. 21:18:15 its from a volkswagen commercial. 21:18:21 I see... 21:18:33 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv157ZIInUk 21:18:48 -!- olsner has quit. 21:18:54 its not from that one 21:18:59 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1vxfGBEMmM&feature=related 21:19:01 it's from that one 21:19:05 i know its not but thats not the point 21:19:23 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv157ZIInUk <-- contains the "oh snap"? 21:19:55 however one comment is highly accurate "He sounds like a german forrest gump! LOL" 21:19:56 all you need is to see one video to understand it. 21:19:57 yes I agree 21:20:09 but I still don't get the point of that strange commercial 21:20:23 yes I can see why he says "oh snap" because the car broke 21:20:40 but I just don't get the point of that commercial 21:20:52 there is no point! 21:20:57 um 21:21:02 the point is to be completely bizarre and strange and thus memorable 21:21:07 blergh 21:21:14 I hardly ever watch TV 21:21:26 neither do i but i remember these from a few years back 21:21:33 I do read newspapers which has some ads but are normally logical ones 21:21:41 I use adblock when browsing 21:21:44 they were quite humorous back when they came out because they were hilarious 21:22:02 augur, well are commercials still as absurd? 21:22:16 dunno, i dont watch tv anymore. 21:22:23 podcasts have replaced by TV watching habits 21:22:26 save BSG 21:22:35 which is now off the air for a fucking year those cunt motherfuckers 21:22:43 I remember seeing an *OLD* commercial 21:22:51 from the 1950s 21:22:55 some time back then 21:23:02 for a VW 21:23:24 something about a cowboy driving in a VW instead of using a horse 21:23:33 I wish I could find it again it was fun 21:24:38 http://youtube.com/watch?v=tRghMpfZXig 21:24:41 this one? 21:25:25 * AnMaster checks 21:26:08 yes but the narrator spoke in English 21:26:20 yeah well thats nowhere near as funny then. 21:26:23 :P 21:26:35 eh? 21:26:44 I don't understand german 21:26:54 anyway it was a Texas accent I remember that 21:28:00 its humorous to have a german dude hawking a VW by saying that cowboys rustle cattle with them 21:28:33 as if thats going to make any sense to an german urbanite in the 70s 21:29:46 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 21:36:15 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to RightBack. 21:36:37 -!- RightBack has changed nick to Sgeo. 21:44:11 ais523, I didn't know you had a page on wikipedia before 21:44:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Smith_%28The_Simplest_Universal_Computer_Proof_contest_winner%29 21:44:20 just found it 21:44:24 yes, I know of that page 21:50:15 ais, is that really you? 21:50:19 yes 21:50:24 http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/alex_smith_bio.html << oh. 21:50:30 I thought everyone here knew that by now 21:50:32 i was gonna rape you but you're not my type 21:50:36 also: neckbeard. :( 21:50:48 nah, just a bad photo 21:51:20 still, not my type. :P 21:51:42 back 21:51:43 so, how DID you proove 2,3 was universal? 21:51:52 augur: my proof is online, if you want to read i 21:51:54 not mathematically but conceptually 21:51:54 s/$/t/ 21:52:10 augur: by describing a compiler from cyclic tag systems into it 21:52:11 augur: scared of math? 21:52:27 it caused a bit of controversy, because the resulting programs were infinitely long, but they're pretty simply structured 21:52:44 i dont know enough of the math to grasp the proof. ive never found anything that can explain it in any reasonable way. 21:52:47 infinitely long programs? lol 21:52:59 augur: well, you can't give a finitely long tape to a Turing Machine, it would barf 21:53:00 jeez, even I grasped the proof a little 21:53:05 and I sux at mafs 21:53:07 so you code 2,3 with Java? 21:53:13 I don't think there's anything particularly difficult in the proof 21:53:15 it's just long 21:53:20 augur: no, no Java there at all 21:53:21 lol! he made a joke about java! 21:53:23 i grasped the 4 pages i read completely :) 21:53:27 they're just as fresh as jokes about MS 21:53:28 I wrote some example Perl programs 21:53:30 tusho, i havent even looked at the proof yet so i 21:53:31 ais523: he meant: infinitely long programs 21:53:36 tusho: oh 21:53:38 he was making an incredibly witty comment about the verbosity of java 21:53:39 oh ho ho 21:53:40 dont even know what it will be like. :P 21:53:48 then they made me translate them into Mathematica, and the resulting programs were a lot slower 21:53:52 also harder to read 21:54:15 tusho dont be so confrontational 21:54:18 ::rapes tusho:: 21:54:26 raping is pretty confrontational 21:54:27 I find 21:54:35 not that, you know, I have any prior experience. 21:54:37 quiet you! ::rapes your mouth:: 21:54:53 you and your silly games 21:55:12 dont worry, oklopol, you know i only love you. 21:55:28 :) 21:56:10 tusho's just a receptacle of imaginary interblog cum 21:56:24 :\ 21:56:26 it's vaguely creepy when you word it like that. 21:56:26 :| 21:56:33 actually it's vaguely creepy anyway but,. 21:56:42 its absolutely hilarious, dont deny it 21:59:20 perhaps i should read the proof someday 22:01:14 olp 22:06:25 o 22:06:30 oko 22:06:56 okoko 22:07:01 okokoko 22:07:26 o 22:07:26 o 22:07:46 -!- atsampson has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 22:08:10 http://www.ubergizmo.com/photos/2007/2/username-panties.jpg 22:08:18 the first thing i thought of after seeing that was oklopol. x.x 22:09:28 Username: [ oklopol ] 22:09:30 Password: [ augur ] 22:09:36 :D 22:14:22 <3 22:17:38 -!- atsampson has joined. 22:17:58 i'd so buy them for you oklopol 22:18:14 but then i feel i'd seem like some weird old chickenhawk 22:18:32 so i think i'll have to deliver them to you in person to reassure that i am not, infact, a chicken hawk. 22:18:50 -!- augur has set topic: augur <3 oklopol. 22:18:53 :P 22:19:44 -!- tusho has set topic: augur <3 violating freenode topic policy. 22:20:06 you know it baby 22:20:20 what policy? 22:20:27 AnMaster: logs must be linked 22:20:33 in the topic 22:20:35 -!- tusho has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:20:41 what if there is no logs for a channel? 22:20:45 AnMaster: that's fine 22:20:46 hubhubhuub 22:20:50 most channels aren't logged 22:20:54 -!- augur has set topic: augur <3 oklopol. also, logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:20:56 -!- tusho has set topic: http:tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:20:56 but if there are logs, you have to let people know they exist 22:20:57 GOLF 22:21:02 -!- augur has set topic: augur <3 oklopol. also, logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:21:05 -!- tusho has set topic: http:tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:21:05 >| 22:21:08 i hate you :( 22:21:14 -!- AnMaster has set topic: logs at http:tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:21:16 <3 22:21:18 -!- tusho has set topic: http:tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:21:19 but that link doesnt work :D 22:21:20 Where's the // 22:21:28 -!- AnMaster has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:21:31 Sgeo: tuso's golfing the topic 22:21:36 s/tuso/tusho/ 22:21:41 ais523, also that would be per-channel policy, not network wide... 22:21:41 it works without ?/ 22:21:42 *// 22:21:45 AnMaster: no 22:21:47 it's network wide 22:21:49 check freenode's tos 22:22:00 if you have public logs you must link them otherwise it is a violation of privacy 22:22:00 $ w3m http:tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric 22:22:00 w3m: Can't load http:tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 22:22:03 it works without ?/ 22:22:06 LIAR 22:22:08 whatevs 22:22:08 -!- ais523 has set topic: http://tinyurl.com/6bts8x. 22:22:13 tinyurl? 22:22:14 Pfft. 22:22:15 More lik 22:22:15 lynx says: 22:22:15 e 22:22:17 HUGE URL 22:22:17 Alert!: Unsupported URL scheme! 22:22:25 tusho: I was golfing it 22:22:35 http://hugeurl.com/ 22:22:36 besides hugeurls don't fit in IRC, generally speaking 22:22:41 we need a largebutnothugeurl.com 22:22:47 -!- tusho has set topic: http://vjn.cc/e. 22:22:53 thx to oklopol's url service 22:22:59 does not work. 22:23:10 shit 22:23:14 http.com ? 22:23:22 -!- tusho has set topic: vjn.cc/x. 22:23:23 INTERNET.COM 22:23:31 * Sgeo likes alnk.org 22:23:34 ITS HOW YOU GET ONTO THE INTERNET 22:24:51 The following URL: 22:24:51 http://hugeurl.com/ 22:24:51 has a length of 19 characters and resulted in the following TinyURL which has a length of 23 characters: 22:24:51 http://tinyurl.com/z0cx 22:24:53 how ironic 22:24:57 it is longer... 22:25:05 Eww vjn.cc uses 302 22:25:20 IMO, URL redirection services should use the permanent one 22:25:24 EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW1!1q212683782346823462934612936213872e12ye8734y458ty5487ty54t87 22:25:53 -!- ais523 has set topic: Logs: http://tinyurl.com/6d9eog. 22:25:56 try previewing that 22:26:10 tinyurl should have something in its script that will only return a new url if its actually shorter. 22:26:19 ah, pity 22:26:21 it doesn't work directly 22:26:29 augur, lie 22:26:30 I went and redirected TinyURL to itself multiple times 22:26:32 augur, see above 22:26:46 ais523: that's LONGER 22:26:49 -!- tusho has set topic: http://vjn.cc/x. 22:26:50 anmaster: what? 22:26:53 how is that a lie? 22:26:56 it was a SUGGESTION 22:27:06 suggestions cant be lies as they contain no claims to truth 22:27:11 tusho: yes, I know it is 22:27:16 who owns vjn.cc, btw? 22:27:24 #vjn, it's some channel oklopol is in 22:27:29 ah 22:27:30 volimo or something I think the owner is called? 22:27:35 vjn.fi is their main site 22:27:37 alnk.org has something like that 22:27:44 ais523, 22:27:46 "Custom alias (optional):" 22:27:48 yay 22:27:56 The following URL: 22:27:56 http://tinyurl.com/recursive 22:27:56 has a length of 28 characters and resulted in the following TinyURL which has a length of 28 characters: 22:27:56 http://tinyurl.com/recursive 22:27:56 [Open in new window] 22:28:16 -!- atsampson has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:28:21 AnMaster: classic 22:28:23 try clicking on that link 22:28:25 Well, not quite.. http://alnk.org/1gingerpuppy 22:28:28 yes doesn't work 22:28:29 I know 22:28:31 -!- atsampson has joined. 22:28:34 is it supposed to do something special? :( 22:28:58 ais523, the link that the error page provides is broken 22:29:13 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 22:29:17 http://www.urlfan.com/local/slereah_23_machine/73267573.html 22:29:19 xrl.us is probably the shortest one 22:29:21 What the hell is this? :o 22:29:32 Sgeo: yes, I know 22:29:57 looks like ais's proof of 2,3 22:30:01 Slereah__: I don't get that at all 22:30:03 Nah. 22:30:08 AnMaster: vjn.cc/one-letter 22:30:09 vs 22:30:11 xrl.us/sdfsdf 22:30:13 It's a thing I put on pastebin 22:30:17 And it somehow ended here 22:30:24 What is this website? 22:30:26 Slereah__: Someone linked to it. 22:30:30 And that website saw the link. 22:30:31 oh, wait 22:30:34 So it noted that it had been linked. 22:30:34 that IS 2,3 22:30:37 hahahahahahahahaha 22:30:44 oh man 22:30:46 (Someone = the pastebin's main page) 22:30:49 thats funny 22:30:50 tusho, www.vjn.cc/c 22:31:00 What, does it gater every damn link in the universe? 22:31:03 AnMaster: don't use them all ;) 22:31:06 www.vjn.cc/n 22:31:07 :) 22:31:07 Slereah__: no, it spiders sites lookin' for links 22:31:11 by blahhhgers 22:31:24 Bleh, I searched myself, only 1 hit 22:31:26 How peculiar 22:31:26 i have nothing to blog about :( 22:31:37 but ive started taking photos like CRAZY! :O 22:31:44 http://vjn.cc/z *PARENTAL GUIDANCE* 22:31:50 have i shown? 22:31:55 wtf. 22:31:57 goatse is down. 22:32:03 But... How did it end here? 22:32:11 I only posted the link here, I think 22:32:13 Slereah__: their spider found it. 22:32:15 goatse.ca? 22:32:15 tusho: is that a scam to get people to look at goatse? 22:32:16 lame. 22:32:17 and the pastebin main page 22:32:19 will have found it 22:32:20 ais523: maybe :) 22:32:46 Meh. 22:32:51 Goatse is so pass. 22:33:22 Quite. 22:33:39 yeah. 22:33:48 i jerked off to that shit when i was tushos age! 22:34:15 What, 52? 22:34:35 :O 22:34:38 tusho you lied to me! 22:34:38 T_T 22:34:46 Here's a tip : if he invites you for candies 22:34:47 i thought you were 51! 22:34:49 Refuse. 22:35:02 unless they're tasty rohypnol candies. i love those. 22:35:02 I think he is around 22-30 22:35:04 in age 22:35:19 We should cut him in half 22:35:27 And count the rings. 22:35:48 AnMaster: you're logical, right? what evidence do you have for believing i'm not 12? 22:36:06 tusho, the way you act 22:36:19 you act too much grown up to be that youn 22:36:19 elaborate? 22:36:30 yet you act too young to be over 30 22:36:45 tusho, this is just a subjective feeling of course 22:36:49 nothing I can prove 22:36:59 I can prove it. 22:37:01 if i acted too grown up why the heck would I pretend to be 12 22:37:13 that's not a very grown up thing to do unless I was a paedophile 22:37:15 tusho, well why the heck are we all in this irc channel? 22:37:18 Because I am tusho's father. 22:37:24 I did his mom. 22:37:41 Slereah__, blergh you should have gone on some star wars line 22:37:41 #esoteric isn't the best channel for pedos 22:37:42 not that 22:37:48 Try #naruto 22:37:51 .. 22:37:55 anmaster: lol. 22:37:55 that wasn't what I meant 22:38:01 we all do strange things here 22:38:05 code esolangs for example 22:38:14 I haven't done anything in a while 22:38:16 so pretending you are 12 when you aren't, not that strange 22:38:20 I'm back to warhammer right now :o 22:38:24 anmaster thinks tusho acts grown up, and rodger and i think he acts childish. 22:38:47 i think anmaster is 2 years old. 22:38:48 augur, he does act childish in some ways yes 22:38:52 augur, what?! 22:39:03 stop insulting me :( 22:39:04 well if a 12 year old is a grown up to you 22:39:11 you must be REALLY young 22:39:15 augur, no but I don't think he is 12 22:39:18 in reality 22:39:21 I think he is lying 22:39:24 you have no sense of humor 22:39:29 augur, anyway I'm 18 22:39:37 AnMaster: would you like proof. 22:39:37 augur, correct. I'm from Sweden 22:39:40 omg i got a plushy bear when was in riquewir :o 22:39:42 what did you expect? 22:39:50 sweden huh 22:39:51 are you a hot swedish boy? 22:39:52 most people here act older than they actually are, I think 22:39:57 oh tusho, i want proof! :o 22:40:04 it would prove one of two things: either i'm a chipmunk, i'm 12, or there's another 12 year old/chipmunk who has said 'octothorpe esoteric' 22:40:06 Guys 22:40:13 augur, I'm a slightly fat (trying to exercise) Swedish 18 years old male 22:40:14 How long has tusho been 12? 22:40:21 tusho, your social security number + stuff I can verify it? 22:40:22 since august 22, 2007 22:40:26 AnMaster: lawl. 22:40:26 probably for under a year 22:40:30 there see? i was right 22:40:35 tusho, what? 22:40:56 tusho, send me a scan of your ID documents 22:40:59 both front and back 22:41:00 very funny 22:41:08 augur: what should i say 22:41:08 for the $10000000 22:41:14 I think I started chatting when I was 12 22:41:20 what? 22:41:21 to be able to transfer to your bank account 22:41:22 ;P 22:41:24 tusho, :Å 22:41:27 ;P* 22:41:33 what should you say?? 22:41:40 anmaster: give me your pic. 22:41:43 I started internet 8 years ago :o 22:41:50 augur, I don't have any on the computer 22:41:54 Man was I retarded 22:41:57 take some, bitch 22:42:04 ive been on the net since like.. 22:42:09 1996 maybe? 22:42:10 augur, nor will I put it up on internet 22:42:11 I used things like "ne1" 22:42:20 1998 or so for me 22:42:32 tusho dont lie 22:42:38 200n where n i a number I don't remember 22:42:38 you would've been 2 years old 22:42:42 I had modem before 22:42:48 so I used it a little 22:42:50 not much 22:42:52 augur: ... 22:42:53 4 22:42:59 uh 22:42:59 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998 22:43:03 I definitely chose "Sgeo" 2001 or earlier 22:43:05 er 22:43:06 well 22:43:08 3.5 kind of thing 22:43:14 but it definitely was 1998-early1999 22:43:26 well ok, obviously it depends on the part of the year you were born 22:43:40 well as I'm 18, our family had internet since 1665 or 1996 22:43:42 err 22:43:45 1995* 22:43:45 i was just doing 12-(2008-1998) 22:43:47 augur: so for my audial proof, what should I say 22:43:49 or 1996* 22:43:56 who said anything about audio proof? 22:43:57 1665 22:43:57 XD 22:44:03 1665!!! 22:44:03 augur: i am recording a sample of my voice as proof of my age. 22:44:06 typo that I corrected 22:44:07 duh 22:44:09 ....................... 22:44:12 anyway 22:44:15 oh. i was hoping for video. 22:44:16 Can't voice be manipulated? 22:44:28 augur: but i look crap. 22:44:29 I had internet myself since 2002 or 2003 iirc 22:44:31 Sgeo: yes, but not particularly effectively 22:44:33 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5AJYqQFYTw 22:44:34 2004 maybe 22:45:01 <3galipoka 22:45:03 i don't think older people act any different than younger ones. 22:45:05 i wanna be galipoka :O 22:45:19 augur: hokay - 22:45:20 galipoka? 22:45:32 ^ link ^ 22:45:38 * tusho uploads 22:45:43 the kids hilarious. 22:45:48 tusho: did you fail the upload of the logs, or did vjn.cc fail? 22:46:01 hes like 8 years old or something and hes pretty funny 22:46:16 i think volimo just hacked that together without testing it, it may suck 22:46:27 http://filebin.ca/kdyagq/wtf.mp3 22:46:33 also in case people use up all the god ones, i may steal them back :P 22:46:41 http://filebin.ca/kdyagq/wtf.mp3 <-- official voice proof 22:46:51 regular voice version followed by chipmunk version (not modified) 22:47:15 tusho: do a galipoka style video. 22:47:19 augur: no. 22:47:24 aw cmon, it'd be funny! 22:47:24 XD 22:47:31 if the second part of the mp3 doesn't convince you nothing will 22:47:33 :p 22:48:06 augur: listened to it? 22:48:16 AnMaster: and you. 22:48:18 i so dont believe it 22:48:22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5AJYqQFYTw <-- I watched half a minute, well quite well done, but I hate that music style 22:48:23 augur: believe what 22:48:24 whatever it is 22:48:24 its too high pitched 22:48:32 and, uh, well 22:48:33 i'm 12 22:48:34 what can I say :p 22:48:45 yes but it doesnt sound like a twelve year olds voice. 22:48:54 what does it sound like then 22:49:04 like you pitch shifted it. 22:49:08 i didn't :| 22:49:11 yes it does 22:49:16 although I agree it sounds like it 22:49:18 but i didn't 22:49:29 if you didnt then you're hilarious 22:50:06 look I think tusho is way older 22:50:15 he even admitted at one point iirc 22:50:15 AnMaster: what would prove it. 22:50:16 ignoring that you sound like a horribly stereotypical proper english kid 22:50:21 a few days agoi 22:50:23 ago* 22:50:27 what 22:50:28 no i didn't 22:50:38 gasp! 22:50:39 that "he like everyone else had substracted 10 years from his age" 22:50:40 ... 22:50:41 tusho you've lied to me! 22:50:47 hah 22:50:48 not that I have 22:50:50 I am 18 22:50:53 augur: AnMaster: http://filebin.ca/upgdhg/wtfb.mp3 22:50:53 well, Wikipedia says I'm 21 22:50:57 note the quite isn't correct 22:51:01 that one fades in pitches 22:51:05 so you know it's not altered 22:51:22 fades in pitch? whats that in real audio speak 22:51:29 augur: i start off low and go high smoothly. 22:51:32 :P 22:51:37 that means nothing lol 22:51:48 pitch shifting can is unaffected by that 22:51:51 that can be edited 22:51:55 yes, but it goes low at the start 22:51:58 well 22:51:59 relatively low 22:52:00 yes and? 22:52:11 i'm not an EXPERT AUDIO MODIFICATIONER, that's what 22:52:12 :p 22:52:12 the beginning is clearly a child taklign 22:52:15 *talking 22:52:16 so you say 22:52:24 regarding the tusho clip 22:52:25 oklopol, well no 22:52:41 tusho, so what do you work with? 22:52:51 ok seriously 22:52:51 AnMaster: ? 22:52:53 is it just me 22:53:03 or is tusho's most recent voice sample absolutely hilarious 22:53:12 i like the 'five' at the end 22:53:13 augur, I think it is unfunny 22:53:21 AnMaster: why 22:53:31 anmaster has no sense of humor 22:53:35 because he fail so much at audio editing 22:53:36 we've already established this 22:53:45 augur, I do like some humours books 22:53:52 i have not edited it once, AnMaster 22:53:54 jesus 22:53:54 :p 22:53:57 like the Discworld novels 22:53:59 oh 22:54:00 i swear. 22:54:04 and I do like monty python 22:54:11 tusho, is this your little brother then? 22:54:17 no, it's me 22:54:18 tusho, look you *act* all grown up 22:54:20 jesus fuck. 22:54:36 you admitted to having used internet in 1998-1999 22:54:38 here, i'll say "fuck you AnMaster", do you think my little brother would say that? :p 22:54:39 well wtf 22:55:11 look there is no way I will believe you are anything below 16-17 22:55:17 AnMaster: what about photo evidence. 22:55:23 would that be my little brother too? 22:55:25 i'll take video evidence. 22:55:27 tusho, could be someone else 22:55:31 but photo evidence is fine. 22:55:32 a random pic from the net 22:55:36 or a random video 22:55:37 AnMaster: what if I held up a sign saying #esoteric 22:55:42 i could put it on 4chan. 22:55:46 yes, i think it's the funniest thing i've ever heard 22:55:48 augur: nothx. 22:55:52 hmph 22:55:54 XD 22:55:56 tusho, photoshop or gimp? 22:55:59 i wouldnt anyway. i cant stand 4chan 22:56:03 i gotta stop takling without being @ the bottom of the backlog 22:56:11 AnMaster: you seem to think I'm an awesome image and audio manipulator 22:56:13 :p 22:56:16 but I'll hand-write it 22:56:26 even so 22:56:30 take a pic of that 22:56:32 merge 22:56:41 *I* could do it with a few minutes work 22:56:44 what evidence can I give you, AnMaster 22:56:47 what would be conclusive :P 22:56:57 tusho, nothing except meeting you in person 22:57:01 or real time talking 22:57:06 real time talking 22:57:06 over voip with pic 22:57:06 I can do that 22:57:09 got skype? 22:57:15 open source software only 22:57:20 i figured that :) 22:57:24 cmon tusho, pics 22:57:25 link me one that isn't gtk 22:57:26 tusho, got fgcom? 22:57:27 and that has os x binaries 22:57:31 and i'll do it 22:57:33 tusho, got fgcom? 22:57:35 yeah pics 22:57:37 what is fgcom 22:57:48 nude pics so we see yours haven't descented yet 22:57:52 tusho, 22:57:53 http://squonk.abacab.org/dokuwiki/fgcom 22:57:59 yes, definitely nudes. 22:58:04 i'll decline. 22:58:10 darn, so close 22:58:12 XD 22:58:27 AnMaster: i don't want to download a flight simulator 22:58:28 now *i* could easily be 12. 22:58:31 thankyouverymuch 22:58:33 ah, how about ninjam 22:58:39 tusho, that's the only voip I got installed, but sure point me to some other 22:58:42 oklopol, you'd be too sexy for a 12 year old 22:58:44 ninjam is open source 22:58:45 will need to set it up though 22:58:46 ninjam.com/download.php 22:58:59 asterix? 22:59:05 hah 22:59:05 i have skype, do i need to skype with you tusho? 22:59:12 augur: that wouldn't prove it to _anmaster_ 22:59:13 err 22:59:14 but you could record it 22:59:18 ill record it yes 22:59:21 asteriks 22:59:26 err 22:59:28 asterisk 22:59:31 that is the spelling 22:59:46 augur: k, in a min 22:59:47 asterix was a comic from france 22:59:47 tusho, and yes doing it with augur would work 22:59:59 augur, yes and asterisk is a open source voip system 23:00:06 i'll only do it with oklopol. 23:00:06 asterisk is bloated 23:00:09 and stuff. 23:00:10 but i'll skype with tusho. 23:00:17 tusho: psygnisfive 23:00:20 tusho, well fgcom use asterisk 23:00:30 do what with me? 23:00:32 ofcourse, if you and anmaster had ichat we could just use that to get a 3 way going 23:00:35 augur, you need video conference 23:00:39 IT oklopol 23:00:39 ID 23:00:41 i have ichat, but you know. 23:00:44 otherwise you could use a filter 23:00:45 IT even 23:00:45 it's CLOSED SOURCE!!2871628112 23:00:47 (besides that it's os x only) 23:00:56 AnMaster: I am not doing a video conference 23:00:58 augur, does it exist for 64-bit linux? 23:00:59 anmaster is lame for now using os x 23:01:00 you are totally paranoid 23:01:09 not* 23:01:14 ahah 23:01:17 so that is it 23:01:22 you will use a voice filter 23:01:23 good try 23:01:24 anmaster: dunno. you could install GNUStep and maybe it'll work 23:01:26 -!- RedDak has joined. 23:01:30 AnMaster: wtf. 23:01:38 augur, different ABI of course 23:01:38 does anyone else think AnMaster is mentally insane. 23:01:42 :D 23:01:43 ABI? 23:01:48 i think AnMaster is mentally hilarious 23:01:50 oklopol, get skype :O 23:01:56 augur, Application Binary Interface 23:02:06 i wanna hear sexy finnish 23:02:19 :D 23:02:25 lol 23:02:34 perhaps some day 23:02:45 make some day today 23:02:51 oklopol, yxi kaxi kolmi (free style spelling league) 23:02:57 I guess I'm totally wrong about spelling 23:03:15 cmon tusho 23:03:20 yes 23:03:21 in a second 23:03:22 jeez 23:03:22 yksi kaksi kolme 23:03:27 while you get your little brother? 23:03:37 a womb 23:03:37 :p 23:03:44 i suggest you ask him something about monads 23:03:51 oklopol, interesting 23:03:52 BUT I DONT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THEM MYSELF 23:03:55 HOW WILL I UNDERSTAND 23:04:11 well hrrm 23:04:32 augur: everyone knows enough to test whether the other one knows 23:04:40 i dont :( 23:04:40 augur, what about lambda calculus? 23:04:47 oh yes i know about that :D 23:04:55 well I don't much 23:04:59 i know what ill do! :o 23:05:07 i cant say it here tho, he might coach his little brother 23:05:12 indeed 23:05:12 but i know just the thing! :D 23:05:22 back 23:05:25 AnMaster: you don't know lc? 23:05:37 oh man itll be brilliant having a 12 year old comment on this. 23:05:38 haha 23:05:43 quite. 23:05:44 so 23:05:45 anmasters lying 23:05:48 i'll add you on skype augur 23:05:48 everyone knows LC 23:06:04 oklopol, not much 23:06:13 anmaster, its simple 23:06:24 ok augur 23:06:25 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:06:26 what is your skype name 23:06:26 AnMaster: you should, it's the most important thing in the world 23:06:26 also 23:06:27 lambda . 23:06:28 set up a recorder 23:06:29 thats all there is 23:06:30 psygnisfive 23:06:32 tusho: psygnisfive? 23:06:34 im doing the recorder now 23:06:39 ok 23:06:42 augur: ready? 23:06:49 no wait 23:06:57 ask me something about monads or something 23:07:31 oh dont worry 23:07:33 i know what to ask ;D 23:07:54 um 23:07:55 :| 23:07:58 ready? 23:08:09 no child wait 23:08:10 jesus 23:08:50 call refused 23:08:51 :-| 23:09:46 o 23:11:54 ok. recording imminent 23:13:25 AnMaster: will you accept this as evidence 23:13:56 tusho, video? 23:14:00 no video 23:14:05 why not? 23:14:06 i don't want to do a video chat. 23:14:06 he refuses video 23:14:09 :| 23:14:11 until later 23:14:17 first date, etc. 23:14:18 oh snap 23:14:20 then we're gonna have cyber video sex 23:14:29 hahha 23:15:25 anyway I can see several flaws: 23:15:26 perhaps i should leave esoteric and return with another nick, and tell everyone i was 7. 23:15:33 1) tusho said he used internet back in 1998 23:15:37 and?! 23:15:41 he would have been 4 years then 23:15:44 yes 23:15:48 I got my first computer at 3 23:15:51 as a christmas present.. 23:16:00 and you programmer on it? 23:16:04 you could do that back then? 23:16:08 no 23:16:14 i learned to program like early 2004 23:16:25 tusho, and you where how old then? 23:16:30 also what is your IQ? 23:16:32 because... 23:16:40 i dunno my iq 23:16:46 did that work 23:17:00 2) You seem to have a larger "knowledge base" than an average or even unusual 12 year old would have 23:17:02 tusho started the same age as i then 23:17:13 oklopol, good one 23:17:19 because I think ehird was older 23:17:20 except we had a comp when i was born 23:17:36 i was like 7 when i started programming 23:17:53 oklopol, so ehird claimed he was older? 23:17:57 did he? 23:18:06 tusho: i learned to program like early 2004 23:18:16 oklopol: whatevs 23:18:23 well due to these flaws I will not fully accept until I see a video conference 23:18:25 doesn't that make it like 7 23:18:55 I will "slightly accept" it after the audio stuff 23:18:56 hahaha 23:19:05 hahahaha 23:19:05 augur refuses to talk about monads 23:19:06 >:| 23:19:17 he doesn't know shit! 23:19:19 bust him 23:19:21 bust him bad 23:19:23 so ignoring that tusho sounds like hes on helium 23:19:24 augur, what about that lc then? 23:19:34 augur: here, shall I quote the y combinator 23:19:36 oh its over, i think youll be convinced enough 23:19:47 so ignoring that tusho sounds like hes on helium 23:19:52 you mean: voice filter 23:19:53 ? 23:20:02 :D 23:20:03 augur: i am going to call you 23:20:08 and quote the two basic monad function's types 23:20:10 BE PREPARED 23:20:25 what funcs? 23:20:33 bind and return 23:20:37 ah right 23:20:38 wtf 23:20:40 it's still ringing 23:20:43 but it's connected 23:20:47 i can hear you fine 23:20:53 LET'S TRY THAT AGAIN 23:21:09 -!- Corun has joined. 23:21:17 tada 23:21:18 :D 23:21:19 ais523, there? 23:21:21 lol. 23:21:27 yes 23:21:29 ais523, what was the name of the intercal compiler? 23:21:29 oh this was brilliant 23:21:37 C-INTERCAL, or ick 23:21:42 ick is the filename 23:21:42 err 23:21:44 augur: post the monad types! 23:21:44 ais523, I mean 23:21:46 debugger 23:21:47 i wanna hear the monad types 23:21:49 sorry for typo 23:21:50 yuk 23:21:50 ais523, ^ 23:21:54 but you invoke it as ick -y 23:21:59 oh ok 23:22:02 that explains 23:22:05 why I couldn't find it 23:22:17 the debugger's stored as a .a file 23:22:21 and compiled into your program 23:22:27 augur: filebin.ca 23:22:30 for uploading the NOMADZ 23:22:51 ais523, I see but bleh 23:22:57 aw it didnt capture my voice so noone has context 23:23:03 looks like we'll have to do this again 23:23:03 augur: duh 23:23:04 it has two sources 23:23:07 pick Skype on one 23:23:07 ais523, which reminds me, I had an idea of cfunge debugger over sockets 23:23:09 QUIET YOU 23:23:09 and Microphone on the other 23:23:12 either unix sockets or tcp ones 23:23:16 incidentally, why don't people use ar rather than tar for packaging files? 23:23:19 it was invented for the purpose 23:23:40 augur: SHUT UP ABOUT SCHEME 23:23:43 <_______________________________________< 23:23:43 hahaha 23:23:57 SCHEME MAKES ME KILL MYSELF 23:23:58 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:24:00 DO YOU WANT ME TO KILL MYSELF 23:24:02 ;__________________________________________________; 23:24:12 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 23:24:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 23:24:18 hi greasie :PDD 23:24:18 oklopol: GET SKYPE 23:24:21 you need to be there for this 23:24:28 lilja has scype 23:24:32 *skype 23:24:33 oh my god XD 23:24:36 i said oklopol 23:24:37 not lilja 23:24:44 anmaster im so sorry this was useless XD 23:24:46 but i don't wanna dl :< 23:24:50 augur: fine. 23:24:54 i'll quote the nomad types again. 23:24:55 i asked him about scheme and he muttered "oh god" 23:25:09 I FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH NOMADS. MONADS. 23:25:20 well 23:25:23 i asked him about web 2.0 and he muttered it again 23:25:24 he can't do scheme? 23:25:27 that's not 23:25:32 oh well 23:25:41 there we go 23:25:44 monamonads. 23:25:48 oh god that was hilarious 23:25:51 tusho isn't that clever, he just reads wikipedia fast 23:25:55 haha 23:25:56 oklopol, haha 23:26:10 ok 23:26:13 video chat 23:26:17 no 23:26:19 augur: upload the file 23:26:21 is the only thing that will convince me 23:26:22 of that monomads 23:26:27 HAHAHA 23:26:29 monomads? 23:26:29 it should be sufficiently convincing 23:26:31 wtf is that 23:26:33 AnMaster: nomads/monads 23:26:38 even if it's not convincing it's funny 23:26:40 nomads? 23:26:42 monads I heard 23:26:48 though I don't know what it is 23:26:51 AnMaster: NOMADS!!!!!!!111 23:26:52 or 23:26:54 rather I do 23:26:58 but I don't understand monads 23:27:00 augur: I am eagerly awaiting the mp3. 23:27:01 ;_; 23:27:08 im trying to figure out how to save it lol 23:27:12 augur, I'm awaiting the ogg 23:27:18 hahaha 23:27:20 as mp3 is a semi-closed format 23:27:25 nomads are quite a lot easier to understand than monads 23:27:29 AnMaster: ... thus proof that I am older than 12! 23:27:39 oklopol: I disagree 23:27:50 "Nomadic people, also known as nomads, are communities of people that move from one place to another, rather than settling down in one location. There are an estimated" 23:27:50 hmm, well i can't say i know much about nomads. 23:27:51 yes... 23:27:52 augur: anyway 23:27:54 you select it 23:27:55 in the library 23:27:57 then choose export to disk 23:27:57 but that is unrelated 23:28:00 voila 23:28:03 oh theres a library 23:28:04 yeah, that was what i knew 23:28:12 if that is all, i'd say that is simpler than monads 23:28:14 ! 23:28:36 oklopol, help: # For Haskell Nomads, see Monad (functional programming). 23:28:38 click that 23:28:42 nothing about nomads 23:28:46 only about monads 23:28:51 or are they the same? 23:28:54 HEY AUGUR 23:28:56 I'M WAITING 23:29:09 AnMaster: if you think i'm wrong about functional programming, just assume you misunderstood my joke :P 23:29:16 you C bitch! 23:29:30 oklopol, I think that *I* know next to nothing about functional programming 23:29:32 I admit that 23:29:36 ok uploading 23:29:41 yay 23:29:48 oklopol, I do know enough to hack a bit of elisp 23:29:57 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1""). 23:29:59 AnMaster: here comes yer EVIDENZE 23:30:09 wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Tusho%20on%20Monads.mp3 23:30:24 that could have been rehearsed 23:30:33 what about the lambda calculus bit? 23:30:33 AnMaster: oh just listen to it 23:31:09 AnMaster: listened to it? 23:31:14 and I guess you still think it's a voice filter huh 23:31:21 it sounds too much like one, tusho :P 23:31:27 oh thanks 23:31:31 doesn't convince as it doesn't check knowledge 23:31:31 I love your assesment of my voice 23:31:39 you decide exact topic 23:31:47 fine 23:31:53 i tell you what AnMaster 23:31:55 i'll call augur 23:31:55 tusho, however... "EVIDENZE" 23:31:57 you say a subject 23:31:59 and i'll talk about it 23:32:02 that proves you are 12 23:32:03 no dont say it HERE 23:32:05 ;P 23:32:07 say it to ME in PM 23:32:10 so no coaching can occur 23:32:12 tusho, ^ 23:32:12 OK 23:32:15 ready for that? 23:32:16 hm 23:32:21 let me think of one 23:32:27 multiple ones, AnMaster 23:32:29 switch half-way 23:32:32 so you know it's not rehearsed 23:32:39 hm good point 23:32:43 im beginning to hope you're not 12, tusho 23:32:48 why 23:33:13 because your personality and mannerisms in skype are almost attractive in their completely psychotic nature 23:33:18 lmao 23:33:43 i loved the nomads cry :P 23:33:47 yes 23:33:47 :D 23:33:55 and it doesn't match tusho on irc 23:33:58 and the clap of hands 23:34:02 that was brilliant 23:34:07 AnMaster: ready? 23:34:11 i would be terribly disappointed if i were attracted to a 12 year old 23:34:14 I told augur yes 23:34:14 your cock is way too small. 23:34:17 lmao 23:34:24 wait 23:34:31 * tusho waits 23:34:46 * tusho WAITS 23:34:49 AnMaster: /me WAITS 23:35:08 i am waiting AnMaster HOW LONG DO YOU WANT ME TO WAIT 23:35:23 i'm beginning to hope tusho is not 12 too 23:35:28 im waiting AnMaster 23:35:30 :______: 23:35:37 elaborate lies like that are awesome 23:35:45 ok topic decided 23:35:52 or topics rather 23:35:54 wish i was a mythomaniac or something 23:35:56 augur, ready? 23:36:02 augur, do it 23:36:19 lmao 23:36:40 i dont know funge AnMaster 23:36:48 also I can't do voice atm due to ppl sleeping in next room, however if anyone want any proof I can do it around UTC tomorrow over asterisk 23:36:58 there is another topic too 23:37:01 so... 23:37:16 you only need one of them 23:37:39 AnMaster: done. 23:37:48 i assume augur will be uploading 23:37:48 anyway another odd thing: why is it that you seem so eager to convince me 23:37:52 yes I hope so 23:37:56 and because you're so eager to deny it 23:38:32 tusho, it is just that most time, on irc, you act like in the range 15-25 23:38:39 or maybe even 17-25 23:38:40 http://www.wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Tusho%20doesnt%20know%20Funge%20damnit.mp3 23:38:51 AnMaster: there you go 23:38:54 augur, and the other topic? 23:39:04 the first thing I said was "i've got my wikipedia page ready, hah" 23:39:07 ah 23:39:10 the net connection is skippy 23:39:15 oh well 23:39:59 omg tusho is so funny :D 23:40:07 okay, after this one i have to say i'm not all that sure that's tusho :P 23:40:26 hes so british :D 23:40:32 lol 23:40:40 AnMaster: is that evidence enough? 23:40:42 and not 12 at all 23:40:52 tusho, you were reading from wikipedia I think 23:40:59 and yes I agree with augur 23:41:02 AnMaster: find that quote on wikipedia. 23:41:05 that doesn't seem all that interactive 23:41:10 and it looks like photo evidence will have to be had. 23:41:11 fine. 23:41:12 oklopol, indeed 23:41:14 i'll take a fuckin' photo 23:41:15 :/ 23:41:17 video! 23:41:20 video, fine 23:41:21 just a sec 23:41:38 well now i have to find my recordy app 23:42:15 i'll take a photo meanwhile 23:42:56 actually i'll wait 23:43:09 guys, were gonna have to do this in 15 minutes 23:43:12 dinner. :P 23:43:25 augur: aw come on. 23:43:28 :-| 23:43:35 * oklopol installed skype 23:43:42 well I'm going to sleep shortly 23:43:45 oklopol: your name? 23:43:56 oklopol 23:44:31 god 23:44:38 you actually calling me? 23:44:40 yes 23:44:51 just a sec, need to prepare my little brother 23:44:54 tell him what to say, etc. 23:44:58 OK 23:44:58 yeah 23:45:02 he's ready 23:45:06 nice 23:45:13 i can hear you typing. 23:45:16 tell him to say "hi oklo i like scheme" 23:45:24 hehe :P 23:45:34 say it more like *sch*eme 23:45:38 not sceme 23:45:40 oh 23:45:45 hmmhmm 23:45:50 :D 23:46:02 i make everyone laugh 23:46:03 :D 23:46:17 i don't even know where the microphone is here 23:46:18 oklopol! :D 23:46:29 night 23:46:32 augur: i am dictating everything people say in here! 23:46:44 tusho: is that actually you tyuping 23:46:44 ? 23:46:46 typing 23:46:52 no jkersjkesjkjoopkopklklml 23:46:53 ah :) 23:47:01 oklopol are you on skype? 23:47:05 dfx ,.fjvail;djtlsdfgjdslkgjklsdjgsdlfjg ldsgjas;ldgjklsdfghklsdhrpaeishtweiohtdfogiuhsdfighsitvhjoi[cf jeiosqwjiofherioarhtiudutypitsrotpjkrjneilrjnflksdthwijftiupow4nrtfiojrtw 23:47:21 i just wrote an os in oklotalk 23:47:23 in like 5 seconds 23:47:23 :D 23:47:24 gotta say i'm not entirely sure what to think about tusho now. i never really doubted he was 12 before this :P 23:47:28 :D 23:47:35 oklopol, are you getting video? 23:47:36 or just talking 23:47:37 :'( 23:47:39 ok afk 23:47:41 that's actually like 7 different tokens 23:47:49 augur: he's making some noise 23:47:55 i was whimpering because YOU DOUBTED ME 23:47:57 i don't really talk 23:47:59 :D 23:48:02 what, ever 23:48:15 i don't talk either 23:48:20 as you can see ,I only say unintelligable things 23:48:30 well i like it 23:48:33 grauh nuer glayi beurn 23:48:39 hmm 23:48:49 say that again, k? 23:49:01 :) 23:49:03 HUHUHUH GEDDIT 23:49:03 so funny. 23:49:06 SAY "THAT" AGAIN 23:49:08 AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAH 23:49:10 :D 23:49:12 shit 23:49:15 my voice filter broke 23:49:20 fixed it 23:49:40 lilja: I CAN HEAR YOU 23:49:41 WITH MY EYES 23:49:42 ER 23:49:43 EARS 23:49:49 that was really a typo 23:49:53 :| 23:50:07 tusho: that's just my voice filter. 23:50:09 your keyboard is loud 23:50:09 tjaja 23:50:14 klunk clank krunk 23:50:23 i could say the same thing about yours 23:50:25 KLUNK CLANK 23:50:25 KRUNK 23:50:27 CLUNAK 23:50:30 CHICKEN 23:50:46 should I say 23:50:47 nomads 23:50:49 ???????????? 23:50:50 yeah 23:50:51 do :D 23:51:09 tusho: so, you live with your pants? 23:51:12 as in, parents 23:51:22 i don't live with my pants. i don't have pants 23:51:24 i am a poor orphan 23:51:25 :( 23:51:29 :D 23:51:38 well i was just wondering, are trey like deaf? 23:51:42 *they 23:51:52 they're DEAD you insensitive clod 23:51:55 I just told you I'm an ORPHAN 23:51:56 :( 23:52:14 well you're a funny orphan, then, but sorry for your loss 23:52:23 yeah i'm the funniest orphan ever 23:52:41 tap tap tap tap 23:52:47 dfgkljkljdgrjklfgjknefvkl;tkl;rtkjlvciodfl;56l;,copt5 23:52:48 you'reso funny you could prolly get your parents to laugh by telling a joke about the accident they died in 23:52:56 *you're so 23:52:56 that hurts my brain 23:53:15 i hope you're not actually an orphan, or i might be conceived as mean :) 23:53:21 hah 23:53:23 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 23:53:29 krrrrrrr 23:53:33 say 23:53:36 shall I read out lines in #haskell 23:53:41 :D 23:53:47 err, shuuure 23:54:12 one wacky style per line! 23:54:15 that's what you get with my irc reading service 23:55:13 lilja: it sounds like you're talking in english played back 23:55:17 :-| 23:55:24 FINNISH: English, backawrds. 23:55:29 or backwards 23:55:48 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:55:49 you're just talking nonsense now to fuck with me 23:55:49 admit it 23:56:11 :D 23:56:16 yes, that's the case 23:56:21 have a video of my empty chair 23:56:39 ize back! 23:56:53 tusho: can you tell us a story? 23:57:02 about what 23:57:06 but not the same as before 23:57:08 oklopol, are you on skype 23:57:09 damnit 23:57:11 augur: yes 23:57:13 let's have a group chat! 23:57:13 augur: well yeah 23:57:16 xD 23:57:30 group chat GO 23:57:34 augur: you'd better record this 23:57:34 oh god 23:57:51 depends, augur 23:57:53 do you want to record video of 23:57:54 people... i will not talk :P 23:57:55 MY EMPTY CHAIR? 23:58:25 well a silent chat like this is fine by me+ 23:58:28 *me 23:58:34 oh my god i'm BLACK 23:58:54 :-| 23:58:57 I AM GIVING YOU INSTRUCTIONS 23:58:58 STERNLY 23:58:59 :-| 23:59:08 wait 23:59:09 it's pronounced 23:59:12 oh klo pol?! 23:59:13 wow 23:59:19 thats how i say it 23:59:20 I THOUGHT IT WAS PRONOUNCED: 23:59:51 this is ridiculously ridiculous 2008-07-18: 00:00:06 well, well thank you 00:01:03 i hope my dramatic music is sufficient 00:01:08 yes 00:01:12 shes an independent 3rd party 00:01:15 she has no bias 00:01:56 sorry about that 00:02:06 I CAN SPEAK FINNISH NOW 00:02:08 :D 00:02:23 :) 00:02:23 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDddddddddd 00:02:26 english = finnish ^ -1 00:02:29 omg omg omg XD 00:03:01 you're abandoning meeeeeeeeeeeeee 00:03:02 :( 00:03:17 :) 00:03:19 cool orgy 00:03:50 i am the best finnish speaker ever 00:04:11 omg that was ridiculous 00:04:13 augur: upload that 00:04:14 now 00:04:37 god wtf was that XD 00:04:56 hello 00:05:01 welcome to skype call testing service 00:05:04 tusho: i think the joke got old :P 00:05:13 skype test call is kinda shy 00:06:06 don't hold my call 00:06:07 bitch 00:06:07 :( 00:06:19 hrrrr 00:06:26 but 00:06:26 but 00:06:28 nomads 00:06:29 :( 00:06:39 but 00:06:39 nomads 00:06:48 piano! 00:07:07 ill show you an empty chair augur 00:07:09 AN EMPTY CHAIR 00:07:14 just accept that call 00:07:15 ;__; 00:08:09 :) 00:08:20 perhaps some other day 00:09:34 lets retry that 00:10:42 i think tusho is a little girl 00:10:52 then 00:10:57 could you please stop raping her 00:11:09 see 00:11:10 you saw me 00:11:11 ;_; 00:11:22 i did not! youre going to have to do it again 00:11:49 you saw that 00:11:52 did you not 00:12:01 ... 00:12:02 WELL? 00:12:05 yes 00:12:08 >:| 00:12:10 there 00:12:12 is that proof enough 00:12:14 :P 00:12:16 get ready to take a screenshot for anmaster! 00:12:20 unfortunately yes :( 00:12:22 hold on 00:12:25 WAIT 00:12:39 ok 00:12:41 lol 00:12:48 screenshot acquired? 00:12:52 oh do it again wont you 00:12:55 see, that was a video filter. 00:12:57 it's like an audio filter. 00:13:00 but it makes you look younger. 00:13:06 and of the opposite gender 00:13:18 SHUT UP YOU 00:13:19 >:( 00:13:24 you look like this south african lesbian i know 00:13:32 you have footage? 00:13:34 10 00:13:34 9 00:13:35 8 00:13:36 7 00:13:37 6 00:13:39 5 00:13:39 4 00:13:41 3 00:13:42 2 00:13:43 1 00:13:57 well if you didn't get a screenshot then you suck 00:14:00 omg tusho 00:14:07 but i hope I have proved beyond monadical doubt 00:14:09 that i am in fact 12 00:14:12 oh you have 00:14:19 however it looks like i have to prove i'm male now 00:14:20 :| 00:14:22 either that or you're a woman with a glandular problem 00:14:29 no please dont 00:14:29 lmao 00:14:30 where's the pic? 00:14:35 oklopol: i'm sure augur has it. 00:14:35 oh theres VIDEO oklopol 00:14:36 VIDEO 00:14:39 VIDEO 00:14:39 WHAT 00:14:40 oh 00:14:41 I SAID SCREENSHOT 00:14:44 :| 00:14:44 that's better 00:14:46 -!- Corun has joined. 00:14:51 i did take screen shots 00:14:53 lots of them 00:14:55 you can't just go taking videos of our cybersex augur 00:14:58 that's not fair 00:14:58 one every 30th of a second 00:15:08 you have to ask my permission first! 00:15:27 * tusho eagerly awaits video 00:15:32 did you actually see tusho talk about monads or something? 00:15:42 ill show you the video dont worry 00:15:46 good, good 00:15:48 is that all the calls for toda 00:15:49 good 00:15:56 i didnt capture him speaking, unfortunately, but i saw him speaking 00:16:17 well i don't think you have any reason to lie, so i'll believe that 00:17:14 tusho you're way too girly for a guy 00:17:17 seriously 00:17:21 how am i girly 00:17:21 :| 00:17:22 and its not the hair 00:17:26 YOU LOOK LIKE A WOMAN 00:17:30 no i don't. 00:17:35 that was because my headphones were pulling my hair back 00:17:36 :| 00:17:37 oh my god you do 00:17:42 no i fucking don't :q 00:17:46 yes you do 00:17:50 no i don't. 00:18:08 i feel weird talking to this 12 year old boy who looks like he belongs in a lesbian outfit 00:18:10 I FEEL WEIRD TUSHO 00:18:13 ITS NOT RIGHT 00:18:14 :-| 00:18:21 i am not female. nor am I a lesbian. 00:18:26 being a lesbian requires me to be female. I am not female. 00:18:57 http://www.wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Tusho%20is%20a%20girl%20part%201.mov 00:18:58 http://www.wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Tusho%20is%20a%20girl%20part%202.mov 00:19:00 THIS 00:19:01 OS 00:19:02 *IS 00:19:04 LESBOS 00:19:10 indeed 00:19:15 * tusho watches the feature film 00:19:17 Tusho Is A Girl 00:19:18 Part One 00:19:19 in sparta the guys fucked one another. 00:19:20 :D 00:19:27 oh god 00:19:29 I look horrible 00:19:33 and like a girl. 00:19:35 i should have PREPARED 00:19:36 :| 00:19:39 not horrible as-a-girl 00:19:45 you just look like a girl 00:19:53 you look like an attractive lesbian 00:19:57 which is frightening 00:19:57 lmao. 00:20:08 i can't bear to watch it 00:20:10 it's that awful 00:20:14 I do not normally look like that 00:20:17 srsly 00:20:18 it is! 00:20:24 you look like a girl! 00:20:30 we've established that 00:20:43 if you were actually a girl itd be fine but youre a guy and its weird x.x 00:20:46 ok, it looks best near the very end 00:20:46 :| 00:20:50 i don't look like a girl then 00:20:51 much 00:21:07 anyway 00:21:12 do you think that'll convince anmaster 00:21:27 -!- tusho has set topic: http://vjn.cc/x | HEY ANMASTER: http://www.wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Tusho%20is%20a%20girl%20part%201.mov and http://www.wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Tusho%20is%20a%20girl%20part%202.mov. 00:21:36 youre a very girly boy, tusho. 00:21:36 my work here... 00:21:37 ...is done 00:21:56 when you go through puberty you might end up being quite attractive tho. 00:22:10 don't be creepy. 00:22:10 :p 00:22:12 but right now, WAY too girly. 00:22:14 anyway, i don't normally look like that 00:22:15 seriously. 00:22:27 well then we'll talk again next time you look like a man 00:22:35 :-| 00:22:43 :D 00:22:46 now i cant insult you 00:22:51 you're too adorable to insult 00:22:54 i fucking hate you 00:22:54 <3 00:22:56 oklopol: what is your opinion on the matter 00:23:01 errr 00:23:03 augur: you just broke your rule two messages after stating it 00:23:17 what? 00:23:21 i did no suck thing. 00:23:22 augur: now i cant insult you 00:23:25 augur: i fucking hate you 00:23:29 male == hasPenis, female == !male 00:23:35 saying i hate you isnt an insult. :P 00:23:39 oklopol: do you believe i'm 12 00:23:40 :-| 00:23:42 i'd say you're a person 00:23:45 HAHAHA 00:24:05 well yeah, i've always believed that 00:24:08 Saying you hate someone is an insult if they respect your opinion. 00:24:11 because i don't really care whether you are 00:24:19 tusho doesnt respect my opinion, be serious 00:24:28 GregorR: Do YOU believe i'm 12? And male? :P 00:24:34 (Evidence: In topic.) 00:24:38 tusho: I have no reason not to *shrugs* 00:24:39 augur: i did no suck thing. <<< you suck things all the time 00:24:41 tusho 00:24:52 augur: i need a leigon to fight AM 00:24:53 so shut up 00:24:53 those videos are not evidence you're a male. not by far. :P 00:24:54 :p 00:25:03 anyway 00:25:05 near the end of part 2 00:25:07 i look male 00:25:07 :-| 00:25:10 i've been told i'd make a pretty girl 00:25:10 lies 00:25:22 you're just pretty, oklopol. 00:25:26 augur: Any further evidence that could be provided would suffice for child porn ;P 00:25:42 xD 00:25:48 The international child porn hub, also some esoteric programming. 00:25:52 its only child porn if you believe hes 12 00:25:59 lmao 00:26:06 who thinks tusho's really a 29 year old woman? ::raises hand: 00:26:17 and a lesbian. 00:26:25 I AM A 12 YEAR OLD MALE YOU IDIOT 00:26:29 you look like my friend karma 00:26:31 its weird 00:26:34 what are those videos in topic?> 00:26:39 those are videos of tusho 00:26:42 bsmntbombdood: proof that I am 12. 00:26:43 and male. 00:26:45 pretending to be a young male. 00:26:49 or female, if you listen to augur 00:26:53 actually you look pretty female 00:26:56 i'm pondering about taking a tour to meet all the active people here. 00:26:57 HAH 00:27:00 fuck you bsmntbombdood 00:27:00 OWNED. 00:27:00 :| 00:27:05 although i may steer clear of augur :P 00:27:08 AnMaster: ping 00:27:12 WAKE UP BASTARD 00:27:19 well you'd have to bring your girlfriend if we meet up, oklopol. 00:27:27 she wouldnt want us fucking unless she could watch. 00:27:34 it'd be totally unfair to her. 00:27:42 i don't think she'd mind either way 00:27:43 don't bring your girlfriend if we meet up, oklopol 00:27:48 i wouldn't want her jealous 00:27:59 VISIT ME 00:27:59 you wouldn't want grammar either 00:28:00 wait wot 00:28:18 :P 00:28:32 oklopol, you sound way too archetypally northern european. 00:28:36 Do they make speakers hi-fidelity enough to play sound at roughly 500MhZ? 00:28:46 GregorR: depends. If I'm 12 and male, yes. 00:28:47 yes they do 00:28:48 Otherwise, no. 00:28:51 but you'd never hear it. 00:29:03 augur: Naturally. 00:29:06 and theyre not real speakers. 00:29:10 augur: okay 00:29:16 not like.. magnet and cone speakers 00:29:24 augur: leave those videos up by the way 00:29:25 they'd be some crazy custom plasma speaker or something 00:29:26 AnMaster must see. 00:29:32 oh those videos arent going anywhere 00:29:34 augur: But if you play a sine wave at 44540 Hz, then record it with your computer, a perfect middle A will come out even though you couldn't hear anything with your human ears :) 00:29:47 harmonics? 00:29:47 augur: what purpose do you have for them?! :P 00:29:51 (Record it at 44100 that is) 00:29:53 the videos? 00:29:59 yes 00:30:01 augur: Nope, just insufficient sample rate and bad timing :P 00:30:08 oh i see. yes, well thats sampling issues. 00:30:18 nyquist frequency is relevant here, im sure. 00:30:34 augur: WAIT 00:30:37 reencode them as ogg 00:30:40 otherwise AnMaster won't watch them 00:30:49 i dont know if i can 00:31:09 :| 00:31:10 oklopol! 00:31:12 add me on skype! 00:32:36 i can try. 00:33:00 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:33:04 -!- augur has joined. 00:33:11 you're already there 00:33:17 O_O 00:33:21 are you online? 00:33:39 yeah 00:36:35 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 00:36:52 seveninchbread, is "bread" a euphemism for penis? 00:38:05 hi prohpet 00:38:09 *prophet 00:38:20 how's it hanging? 00:39:00 why do i have audio of someone paddling through a lake? x.x 00:39:19 its me 00:39:20 duh 00:40:12 -!- seveninchbread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 00:40:22 i lost my data a while back and now all my music is garbage :( 00:40:24 well 00:40:27 600 files anyway 00:40:37 augur: no 00:40:39 but 00:40:42 it is what I intended you to think 00:40:52 so congratulations for being manipullable. 00:40:56 a hot dog bun? 00:41:40 anyway. augur. i am one-two 12 years old. i am m-a-l-e male. now accept that :p 00:41:41 im speaking english words and you're understanding them. congratulations for being manipulable. 00:41:53 ITS TOO WEIRD, TUSHO 00:41:54 TOO 00:41:55 WEIRD 00:42:01 : - | 00:43:17 i dont know what any of this music is but a lot of it is really good :( 00:43:27 -!- tusho has set topic: http://vjn.cc/x | HEY ANMASTER: http://vjn.cc/tusho1 and http://vjn.cc/tusho2. 00:44:16 how the fuck do you loose all meta data on a song, thats ridiculous. >_< 00:44:34 augur: dude 00:44:37 use musicbrainz picard 00:44:40 it tags it from an audio hash 00:44:42 :> 00:44:44 it doesnt work 00:44:49 yes it doe 00:44:49 oklopol, excellent... as usual 00:44:50 s 00:44:56 when did they change "lose" to "loose"? 00:45:01 ok ill use it and if it doesnt work will you admit you're a 29 year old woman? 00:45:11 WHEN I SAID IT DID, OKLOPOL. 00:45:14 IM THE LINGUIST HERE, NOT YOU 00:45:18 ah okay 00:45:23 thats right. 00:45:24 augur: use the foosic tagger? 00:45:26 there's tons of options 00:45:30 best reco'nize 00:45:38 well i thought it might've been a few days ago, since AnMaster used it twice 00:45:54 its a common misspelling which will probably become standard soon 00:46:04 i also "corrected" him twice, although i now realize it must've changed while i wasn't looking. 00:46:28 btw 00:46:29 oklopol: AnMaster isn't very good at english 00:46:29 hot chip 00:46:31 over and over 00:46:32 <3 00:46:43 befunge 98 got some X 00:47:13 tusho: i've seen worse 00:47:37 if i feel the need to correct someone's "loose", he can't suck *that* much 00:47:55 but he definitely fucks too much 00:48:01 yes, that's a given 00:48:04 kegels. gotta do kegels. 00:48:10 otherwise you gape! :( 00:48:15 and im not into that. 00:48:16 hf, just remember to flush 00:48:29 tusho has a skype smiley to help you visualize it 00:48:42 what, the goatse hands? 00:48:45 yes 00:49:19 i wanna do a podcast. we should do a podcast. it can be about esolangs. 00:49:30 perhaps i should code eodermdrome, this has been fun but very pointless :) 00:49:49 augur: with me? 00:49:52 that'd be fun 00:49:59 yes, and oklopol. 00:50:05 and anyone else who wants to join. 00:50:06 NOMAAAAAAAAADS 00:50:07 augur and tusho talk about esolangs while oklopol & lilja laugh in the background 00:50:12 no 00:50:15 whos lilja anyway 00:50:23 augur talks about esolangs, while we laugh, and tusho screams 00:50:27 oklopol's girlfriend i think? 00:50:29 i mean 00:50:30 i assume so. 00:50:45 lilja is my other persona i use over a voice filter 00:50:47 duh 00:50:52 oh 00:50:52 yeah 00:51:06 but really now 00:51:10 is that your girlfriend? 00:51:30 omg i love this song :( 00:54:01 i need an eodermdrome program 00:55:14 augur: we should hack on a language implementation while talking about it over skype some time, i'd just spend all the time replacing the file with NOMADS 00:55:21 and you'd spend it laughing and prodding me about scheme 00:55:40 id prod you about being a girl is what i'd prod you about 00:56:06 lol. 00:56:12 whyd you have to ruin it tusho 00:56:18 now i cant joke about raping you :( 00:56:57 music brainz is also giving me either no matches or a million matches 00:56:59 fix it. 00:59:11 lawl 00:59:30 ais523: i think it's a non trivial task to do graph -> eodermdrome. 00:59:59 FIX IT TUSHO 01:00:08 no 01:02:52 :( 01:03:24 I can has Portal. 01:03:36 (or: no, Def-BF ain't happening tonight) 01:04:28 I'm just oklopol's pet chipmunk 01:04:39 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 01:05:47 lol 01:09:21 * tusho watches iphone upgrade 01:11:18 but hey, augur, you had a really nice voice 01:11:23 and way of talking 01:11:26 if anyone feels like playing, this should work now http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p316213521.txt 01:11:47 i didn't make the io yet, as i'm not entirely sure how to unparse shit, and i kinda want that next 01:11:57 ais prolly has some clue about that 01:11:57 i sounded like a complete poof 01:11:58 XD 01:12:10 mainly cause i am a complete poof 01:12:20 oklopol: What is it? 01:12:25 oh well, then poofs sound nice 01:12:33 CakeProphet: ais523's graph rewriting language 01:12:35 lol 01:13:05 i got interested in it as a possible extension for kinda graph lambdas for graphica 01:13:36 augur: let's talk about SCHEME 01:13:42 but i doubt i'll do that even if he lets me use it 01:14:04 i figured you'd get angry at scheme and have lots to say 01:14:09 i envisoned this: 01:14:31 GRAR SCHEME GRR SGLASGJ SHITTY UNDERPOWERED TOO MINIMAL GRR RARG 01:14:32 you envisioned................... 01:14:37 heh 01:14:41 when have I ever said that 01:14:58 doesn't tusho like scheme? 01:15:03 i do 01:15:05 the other day when you kids were talking about scheme and lisp 01:15:12 you were all hardcore anti scheme 01:15:12 just for writing actual apps it's a bit on the minimal side 01:15:12 :) 01:15:14 ITS IN THE LOGS' 01:15:23 i must've been otherwheres then 01:15:45 iphone 2.0 01:15:46 be quicker 01:15:48 you stupid shit. 01:16:01 what now 01:16:03 ANTISCHEME, WHERE THE PARENS ARE BACKWARDS AND LISTS ARE FUCKING NEGATIVE 01:16:10 oh god 01:16:18 WHAT IS A NEGATIVE FUCKING LIST 01:16:21 you dont even know yourself 01:16:22 >P 01:16:26 don't you know nopol? 01:16:48 oklopol your girlfriend is going all :D on me 01:16:49 :( 01:16:52 augur: it's a list that instead of being wrapped inwards like nested list 01:16:52 s 01:16:52 that's one way to do negative lists 01:16:54 is wrapped outwards 01:17:01 ya 01:17:02 im going to start confusing her for you and then im gonna be hitting on your girlfriend :( :( :( 01:17:05 negative in depth 01:17:18 that doesnt make any sense 01:17:19 augur: lol go for it :d 01:17:24 no i dont like girls! :( 01:17:25 augur: yes it does 01:17:27 think about it 01:17:28 they have vaginas 01:17:30 (a b c) 01:17:33 ((a b c)) 01:17:34 (a b c) 01:17:38 and one more down 01:17:39 what? lol 01:17:45 a )(b c 01:17:49 see? it sort of folds out 01:17:51 :) 01:18:00 that makes no sense :P 01:18:02 well the level before (a b c) is trivial 01:18:09 you will just expand whatever it's inside of 01:18:16 zero-depth list 01:18:34 you can match that on a list to get a certain amount of elements from the middle of it 01:19:21 oklopol I would have guessed a negative list 01:19:30 it's the negative lists that are complicated 01:19:31 contained everything else besides what it was defined with 01:19:47 right now, my nopol semantics aren't really all that pretty 01:19:51 iphone update sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww 01:19:57 cakeprophet: how would that work? 01:20:01 which... isn't really possible to implement--yeah 01:20:04 not as a sequence 01:20:08 it's very possible for negative sets 01:20:09 for instance ([...]) != [(...)], where ()=positive, []=negative 01:20:11 that do not have an order 01:20:16 and do not necessarily need to be iterated over. 01:20:17 like.. test membership is just like normal but negated? 01:20:21 even though both should obviously be a zero depth ... 01:20:21 mhm 01:20:29 it's easy to do in any OO language. 01:20:32 where you can define datattypes 01:20:34 )a b c( is the negative list containing everthing but a, b, and c 01:20:34 though 01:20:35 CakeProphet: it's not negative length 01:20:40 it would be tricky 01:20:47 to define how you iterate over it 01:20:50 and indexing and such 01:20:52 so (member 'a ')a b c() returns false? 01:20:53 but for a set that doesn't matter. 01:21:00 also no, negative != infinite's complement 01:21:00 yep 01:21:06 e.g. (member 'a ')a b c() == (not (member 'a '(a b c))) 01:21:07 ? 01:21:13 oklopol: hmmm... yeah 01:21:14 well you can define it like that, if you wanna 01:21:30 but i'd prefer a set that has kinda antielements. 01:21:36 this is bordering on the closed universe issue with prolog 01:21:39 only sort of not 01:21:40 but anyway, this is not about a negative length, it's negative depth 01:21:51 I'm not exactly sure 01:21:52 which kinda escapes the tree form in very, very weird ways 01:21:52 what depth is 01:21:54 in a list. 01:21:55 oklopol, you and your negatives. 01:22:01 as in 01:22:10 [[1,1], [1,2]] 01:22:12 has a depth of 2? 01:22:17 so basically, if you have a negative list inside your positive list, the negative list will actually kinda pop up. 01:22:19 but in a negative list it has a depth of... -2? 01:22:28 and the rest will be inside it 01:22:33 ........that's a very cool, confusing concept. 01:23:12 its nonsensical is what it is! 01:23:14 CakeProphet: yes, and i'm not sure how it should be done, nopol has it, but it's not all that pretty yes 01:23:16 *yet 01:23:19 oklopol loves to do these crazy things 01:23:22 so you can effect outside data by defining data within a negated list that's inside a list of the opposite polarity? 01:23:25 dont let him make you nuts 01:23:41 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/nopol.txt <<< map function with a negative list 01:23:42 augur: I love to do these crazy things to 01:23:44 just wish I did them more. 01:23:56 youre both mad! >_< 01:24:00 oklopol: that reads as gibberish to me. 01:24:07 I'm assuming 01:24:09 the <>'s define lists 01:24:12 CakeProphet: no matter 01:24:12 and the :::'s are... something 01:24:29 i'm going to explain, the gist at least 01:24:36 alright, I'm game. 01:24:39 * CakeProphet is interested. 01:24:54 basically, map does (1,2,3...n) -> (f 1,f 2,f 3...f n), right 01:25:21 ........yeah.... what? 01:25:32 now what we do, is take a function, and do (f (1,2,3...n)), after which we lift the list given to f by two steps 01:25:34 I know what a map function does, yes. 01:25:42 so we first get (f 1 2 3 4... n) 01:25:43 then 01:25:45 but I'm not familiar with that notation. 01:25:50 (f [1,2,3,4...n]) 01:25:51 oh... 01:25:53 wait 01:25:54 where [] is a negative list 01:25:54 ...yeah 01:25:56 lol I'm dumb. 01:26:01 a negative list is a sick thing. 01:26:04 what it does is.. 01:26:07 err 01:26:15 if the negative list has depth -1 01:26:18 ...so then it's like 01:26:26 then it will kinda rise above one level of normal list surrounding it 01:26:29 list[::2]? 01:26:34 in this case it will rise above the (f ...) thing 01:26:41 or am I misinterpreting the "step"? 01:26:52 CAKE PROPHET IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE 01:26:53 and it will iterate through its elements, making a copy of the whole list surrounding it, for each of its elements 01:26:54 hmm 01:26:57 even oklopol doesnt understand it 01:27:00 :) 01:27:07 oi! oklopol! PMs! read them! 01:27:08 CakeProphet: oh, no, it's not like that 01:27:13 oh, i will 01:27:31 you're welcome :) 01:27:35 CakeProphet: anyway, err 01:27:38 ...oh. 01:27:41 that's....... weird. 01:27:57 after doing the negative -> positive transformation 01:27:59 it becomes 01:28:10 ((f 1) ,(f 2) ... (f n)) 01:28:21 as you can see, (f ...) was done for each elem in the list 01:28:32 so... for notational purposes... if (f ...) is a function call... [1,2,3,...] is a positive list... and <1,2,3...> is a negative list 01:28:34 if you have 01:28:54 well sure, except it doesn't actually differentiate between a list and a function call 01:29:02 ............sdfiohsuidfhisryetu7wruygsfdg 01:29:04 well it kinda does, but not conceptually 01:29:09 this is lisp right oklopol? 01:29:12 motherfuck 01:29:16 augur: yes, exactly. 01:29:21 CRAZY FINNISH LISP 01:29:26 WITH DIARESIS 01:29:33 lisp doesn't differentiate between a list and a function call? 01:29:36 x = [y = <1,2,3>, <1,2,3>] 01:29:39 (1 2 3 4) gives an error 01:29:45 LÏÏSPONËËN 01:29:47 or something 01:29:54 that's a list in nopol, because 1 can't be called 01:29:58 if you were to write a function (f x) 01:29:59 it's just rewriting 01:30:00 and then 01:30:07 and NEGATIVE LISTS 01:30:07 er.... 01:30:11 how about (f y) instead 01:30:14 except in practise it's closer to lisp, but irrelevant here 01:30:18 then (map f x) 01:30:19 oklopol 01:30:24 (1 2 3 4) should not be a list in lisp 01:30:27 it should be an error 01:30:31 augur: asd. 01:30:32 would make y = x 01:30:35 for each call to f? 01:30:39 ... 01:30:50 hmm 01:30:53 you know its true! 01:31:01 '(1 2 3 4) is a list 01:31:05 CakeProphet: it's purely functional 01:31:06 (list 1 2 3 4) is a list 01:31:11 except for negative list rewriting 01:31:13 but (1 2 3 4) is an application that fails 01:31:17 which is not, but close to it 01:31:27 augur: duh 01:31:33 but its not a list 01:31:43 oklopol: hmmm... so what was not purely functional in my description? I've never fully grasps pure functionalness completely. 01:31:49 okay you got me i didn't know that 01:32:00 hmm 01:32:07 language metalanguage oklopol. language metalanguage. :P 01:32:19 CakeProphet: basically, that there is just one tree specifying the program state at a given time, in this case 01:32:29 no variables, no streams, just a tree 01:32:41 oklopol: so... like brainfuck has an array... this will have a tree? 01:33:03 well kinda. 01:33:11 -nod- alright, I gotcha 01:33:25 but unlike brainfuck, there is no pointer that moves around 01:33:34 there is just state, and rules for rewriting parts of it 01:33:39 no other state. 01:33:43 ... /just/ a tree. 01:33:46 alright. 01:33:47 yes 01:33:50 just one tree 01:33:57 hmmm... so then 01:34:08 to help me understand the rewriting (I've /never/ grasped graph rewriting) 01:34:17 ...that's like uh... damnit what's it called. 01:34:22 I have not esolanged in forever. 01:34:26 graph rewriting is more complex than tree rewriting 01:34:33 the string-rewiriting language that I should know instantly. 01:34:39 thue 01:34:42 yes 01:35:09 in terms of how you describe things... as rewrite rules. 01:35:15 but its a tree now instead of a string. 01:35:21 string rewriting is simple 01:35:26 i dont know how to do graph rewriting 01:35:29 okay let's consider an example 01:36:07 -updates his hideous and outdated picture on frappr- 01:36:16 CakeProphet: let's say you have the initial state [append, [1, [2, [3, []]], [2, [3, [4, []]]]] 01:36:33 hmmm... alright. 01:36:40 [append [1 [2 [3 []]] [2 [3 [4 []]]]] if you prefer without commas 01:36:42 now 01:36:45 what does that even do, oklopol. lol 01:36:47 if it's all linked lists 01:36:53 augur: it does absolutely nothing 01:36:54 you can just do [1 2 3 ...] 01:36:57 and I'll getcha 01:36:59 this is a tree with numbers and atoms. 01:37:06 nothing more added 01:37:15 now, we can make a purely syntactic rewrite rule 01:37:17 ok so its a boring binary tree. 01:37:18 something like this 01:38:29 [append A []] => A; [append [A B] C] => [append B [A C]] 01:38:37 now here we have two rewrite rules 01:38:49 which will actually not work, sorry. 01:38:52 i'll rewrite 01:38:54 rofl 01:38:57 alright. 01:39:09 I see how it works though... I believe 01:39:15 [append A []] => A; [append A [B C]] => [append [B A] C] 01:39:17 A matches anything. 01:39:17 something like this 01:39:21 yes 01:39:25 and is substitued as the A in the second expression 01:39:27 that's nice. 01:39:33 this will actually be kinda bugged, as the latter list will reverse 01:39:35 but you get the idea 01:40:01 we're just doing a global rule, each time there is some append in the program state, we can rewrite it using these rules. 01:40:02 hmmm... the first rule won't match anything will it? 01:40:14 it will match only if the latter list is empty 01:40:24 there is not empty node after an anything-node after append 01:40:25 in which case the branch will be rewritten as just the list A 01:40:34 it matches 4 [] no? 01:40:37 with A = 4 01:40:39 it will not match right away, CakeProphet 01:40:52 the second rule would match exactly 3 times, then the first one would match once 01:40:57 ah 01:40:59 gotcha 01:41:04 the evolution of the program state tree would be something like 01:41:24 [append, [1, [2, [3, []]], [2, [3, [4, []]]]] => [append, [2, [1, [2, [3, []]]], [3, [4, []]]] 01:41:37 => [append, [3, [2, [1, [2, [3, []]]]], [4, []]] 01:41:45 it'd transform [1 [2 [3 [4 []]]]] into [[[[[] 1] 2] 3] 4] right? 01:41:54 => [append, [4, [3, [2, [1, [2, [3, []]]]]], []] 01:42:01 and now the first rule would match 01:42:05 afk gotta go 01:42:09 and the result would be [4, [3, [2, [1, [2, [3, []]]]]] 01:42:21 aha 01:42:26 are you sure oklopol? i dont think thats what would result. 01:42:40 atleast not with the second 2 and 3 01:42:49 augur: why would it transform a list into its reverse? 01:42:57 there are only rules for lists that start with append 01:43:02 well i didnt trace it out in my head but 01:43:06 anyway, the point is 01:43:23 A [B C] => [B A] C which is a reordering of the nesting from right to left 01:43:30 you can do curried functional programming with first-class functions just by doing simple tree rewrite rules 01:43:46 augur: err 01:43:50 when do the functions get "called"? 01:43:55 the left side of the second rule 01:44:06 is [append A [B C]] 01:44:08 starts with append 01:44:09 yeah 01:44:14 B will match head, C will match tail 01:44:23 whatever :P 01:44:27 head is consed to A 01:44:29 tail C is left there 01:44:35 your notation is confusing anyway 01:44:35 CakeProphet: you don't calle 01:44:36 *call 01:44:41 ok im off 01:44:41 augur: no it's not 01:44:43 see ya 01:44:46 yes it is oklopol 01:44:47 :P 01:44:48 bye 01:44:54 [A B] is a list of two elems, A and B 01:45:03 [A B C] is a list of three elems, A, B and C 01:45:07 what's confusing about that? 01:45:11 ...nothing 01:45:14 well okay i had commas 01:45:15 he might have meant 01:45:22 nevermind 01:45:23 im off 01:45:24 that there's a lot of them 01:45:25 but that's not notation 01:45:27 but anyway, i think augur just sucks ass, as he's gay ;))))) 01:45:28 see ya 01:45:30 it doesnt help to discuss further 01:45:37 yeah, indeed not 01:45:41 anyway, bye you 01:45:51 yeah... I'd ditch the commas... not needed in this notation really. 01:45:52 less typing. 01:45:54 easier to read. 01:46:17 CakeProphet: so, functions don't get called, it's just if you have something with a "function name" as the first element and something as it's arguments, the rewrite rule will trigger 01:46:20 yes, true 01:46:29 ooooooooooh 01:46:31 that 01:46:34 is 01:46:35 cool 01:46:39 the function definition 01:46:39 yes 01:46:42 is the rewrite rule 01:46:44 fuck yeah 01:46:52 ......okay... now we have negative lists. 01:46:57 :P 01:47:54 well i explained them before, already, a list of negative depth -N will rise N levels upwards, and it will multiply that whole list N times, and put each of its elements where the negative list used to be 01:47:59 and collect these in a list 01:48:08 ...oh 01:48:11 so for [...] a positive list and <...> a negative list 01:48:12 that makes sense 01:48:16 but it will take me several minutes 01:48:19 to understand it in detail 01:48:21 ... 01:48:23 because that is confusing. 01:48:39 here, k l m is the negative list [a b [d e <> f g] c [h i j]] 01:48:42 of depth -2 01:48:48 no let's see how to evaluate that 01:48:56 first, we separate the negative list's contents 01:49:18 we get the list [k l m] and the list "lambda" [a b [d e * f g] c [h i j]] 01:49:29 -!- lilja has quit ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'"). 01:49:32 we then just put each of k, l and m where the * is 01:49:35 and get... 01:49:49 [[a b [d e k f g] c [h i j]] [a b [d e l f g] c [h i j]] [a b [d e m f g] c [h i j]]] 01:50:00 if you get that, you should get my negative list semantics 01:50:23 ....I am getting it... 01:50:33 but I am not going to be able to think about it sanely. 01:50:35 yet. 01:50:39 the list is -2 in depth, so if we had something around the original, like [X Y Z [a b [d e <> f g] c [h i j]] W P R] 01:50:43 the rewrite would be 01:50:57 [X Y Z [a b [d e k f g] c [h i j]] [a b [d e l f g] c [h i j]] [a b [d e m f g] c [h i j]]] W P R] 01:51:06 err, sorry 01:51:07 ....can you take 01:51:13 [[a b [d e k f g] c [h i j]] [a b [d e l f g] c [h i j]] [a b [d e m f g] c [h i j]]] 01:51:20 hmm 01:51:22 and newline it where it doubles? 01:51:26 sure 01:51:28 so I can read that thing 01:51:35 wait a sex 01:51:57 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p564464542.txt 01:52:35 hmmm... 01:52:38 but actually [X Y Z [[a b [d e k f g] c [h i j]] [a b [d e l f g] c [h i j]] [a b [d e m f g] c [h i j]]] W P R] was the latter, i had a small error 01:52:40 but the depth was -2 01:52:44 so why are there three? 01:52:44 yes 01:52:49 hmm 01:52:52 well 01:52:57 if it was depth 0 01:53:06 ........what is depth - 01:53:07 er 01:53:09 0 01:53:09 then it'd just be expanded into the list [d e k l m f g] 01:53:16 oh 01:53:24 how do you represent a depth 0 negative list? 01:53:40 [a b [d e |k l m| f g] c [h i j]] ==> [a b [d e k l m f g] c [h i j]] 01:53:43 well 01:53:49 i represented with |...| here 01:54:04 alright... that'll work for our purposes. 01:54:12 because [<...>] != <[...]>, sadly 01:54:25 and neither is the 0-depth list i think. 01:54:32 i need to hone this concept a bit, still 01:54:35 -!- tusho has quit. 01:54:35 but it's nice already 01:54:38 so 01:54:40 it's pretty neat 01:54:43 I have to say 01:54:43 now that was depth 0 01:54:46 and vaguely makes sense 01:54:49 let's do depth -1 01:54:52 as it is sort of like... negative depth 01:55:04 in the way it evaluates into positive depth lists. 01:55:16 [a b [d e f g] c [h i j]] ==> [a b [[d e k f g] [d e l f g] [d e m f g]] c [h i j]] 01:55:19 do you get that? 01:56:03 the negative list makes a list lambda, that is, a list stub that is given some value to fill in a place 01:56:11 yeah 01:56:12 that part makes sense 01:56:19 you get this stub, or the lambda, by removing the negative list, and replacing with * 01:56:30 hmmm... alright. 01:56:33 you then just "call" the stub for all elems of the negative list 01:56:36 ah okay 01:56:44 so for each duplicate of the original list 01:56:55 you fill in a * with just /one/ value from the negative list 01:57:22 I see it now. 01:57:28 yes. except the "original list" here means whatever list is N levels up from the negative one, where N is the negative depth 01:57:31 it's a bit hard to read 01:57:33 but yeah, I got it. 01:57:45 well try reading the actual notation :P 01:57:50 <...> for positive lists 01:57:55 >...< for negative ones 01:58:08 I'm not sure how that could be useful computationally yet, but it makes sense now. 01:58:19 well you can basically do mapping with it. 01:58:31 hmmm 01:58:33 yeah 01:58:37 it does map 01:58:39 over all the elements 01:58:55 but it copies everything else too 01:59:01 is that sort of like 01:59:16 to give each element a local state? 01:59:20 yep. it's just it can rise over multiple levels, and a decent implementation would do this with iterators or something, so you could do pretty sick mapping tricks 01:59:23 hmm 01:59:27 like 01:59:30 you could use the duplicate lists 01:59:45 as a state for your "mapping function" 01:59:47 maybe 01:59:49 I don't know. 01:59:53 :) 01:59:53 well 02:00:01 if i had something like a "strong list" 02:00:07 let's mark that with {...} 02:00:12 awwww yeah 02:00:14 curly brackets for the win. 02:00:18 and i had a kinda strong negative list 02:00:22 ....rofl 02:00:30 let's mark that with... err... \.../ 02:00:32 :P 02:00:38 ...sure 02:00:51 now, we could have some code, say a function, within a strong list 02:01:04 strong lists, both positive and negative ones, work just like the normal ones 02:01:05 except 02:01:22 a strong negative will go upwards its depth in strong positive lists 02:01:30 so you don't have to calculate how deep you are 02:01:31 because 02:01:40 you can just surround where you wanna jump out of with a strong list 02:01:48 aaaah 02:01:51 that would be nice. 02:02:05 like {... [... [... \.../ ...] [...] ...] ...} 02:02:08 strong list isn't really a good description... I think. 02:02:11 but 02:02:14 it differentiates for now 02:02:18 here, the \.../ would jump @ the {...} level 02:02:26 -nod- 02:02:38 well let's call them thick or something 02:02:38 now 02:02:38 by jump you mean map and make duplicates? 02:02:53 hmm 02:02:56 yes. 02:03:00 alright. 02:03:20 now, what i didn't actually go through about negative lists, is that they're a bit cleverer than i said earlier 02:03:20 (I'm seriously surprised this is all making sense) 02:03:23 i'll explain 02:03:29 alright 02:03:36 [a b c d e f] 02:03:48 now, we have two negatives that both map the upper list 02:03:54 ...oshi 02:04:11 in this case, the mappings happen at the same time, and we get the cartesian product on one mapping level. 02:04:20 in case cartesian product is a weird term, just ignore it 02:04:20 ........uh oh 02:04:23 i'll show an example 02:05:07 [a b c d e f] ==> [[a b g c d j e f] [a b g c d k e f] [a b h c d j e f] [a b h c d k e f] [a b i c d j e f] [a b i c d k e f]] 02:05:17 do you get that? 02:06:04 ....one sec 02:06:20 I get that there's 3*2 duplicates of the positive list surrounding the negatives. 02:06:23 this is not what my current nopol interpreter would do, and there are no thick lists yet, this is all just to show you another possible use, which you might see in a while 02:06:27 yes 02:06:35 I'm still 02:06:42 using my shitty-pattern-matching-brain 02:06:43 and we are doing all possible substitutions from the two lists 02:06:46 to see how they substitute in 02:06:47 well 02:06:52 basically 02:06:56 it's like 02:07:03 if you were to describe the substitutes as pairs 02:07:24 we take the lists and , and we take the list lambda [a b #1 c d #2 e f] 02:07:25 (g,j) (h,j) (i,j) 02:07:31 then 02:07:54 (g k) (h k) (i k) 02:07:57 then we take all the possible pairs formed by the elements of and 02:08:02 exactly the ones you just listed 02:08:08 ...-nod- alright I got it. 02:08:12 that's cool... 02:08:14 except the latter ones would be evaluated first 02:08:23 yes, but let's see how that works out for thick lists 02:08:27 so, basically 02:08:43 you could probably do some neat computations using that implementation. 02:09:03 we can have an arbitrary list inside {...}, containing all kinds of stuff 02:09:09 and, some thick negative lists. 02:09:23 now, can you see how we can do declarative programming with this model? 02:09:56 ....not yet. 02:10:09 let's say we have {(== (+ \4 5 6/ \2 3 4/) 6)} 02:10:28 now, 4 5 6 and 2 3 4 would be extracted from inside the thick upper list 02:11:06 so we take the cartesian product of \4 5 6/ and \2 3 4/, and put the pairs, one by one, into {(== (+ #1 #2) 6)} 02:11:23 as this effectively becomes a list of all the possible combinations 02:11:37 ah ha 02:11:40 we can easily just traverse this thick list until we find a "true" value 02:12:04 in fact, that would produce the list {true false false false false false false false false} 02:12:15 ...neat. 02:12:21 it's like 02:12:25 map and filter 02:12:28 but way more awesome. 02:12:44 well it's somewhat like amb. 02:12:49 ...what's amb. 02:12:51 ... 02:12:53 but this is a bit higher level 02:12:55 well 02:13:07 amb is a function that takes some list of args 02:13:33 and it returns, conceptually, such an arg that nowhere later in the program amb will be called without arguments 02:13:33 does the language you currently have declare builtin rewrite rules, or does it assume nothing initially? 02:13:59 it has some rewrite rules, and it actually has quite pretty lambdas and stuff like that 02:14:07 it's not a tarpit really 02:14:12 I think it would be nice. 02:14:32 if it started off with no functions defined... just for the possibility of being like a typical tree-rewriting esolang 02:14:50 and then have a way to, dare I say, import in function defintions... 02:14:57 well sure, at least if i let you make thicker lists, it would own 02:14:58 so that you have some builtins in various files. 02:15:07 well sure 02:15:18 i guess you could define the concept of lambda yourself 02:15:22 i should try some time 02:15:36 but, i'll be sleeping now, perhaps more lessons about my languages later :P 02:15:44 lambda as in the [(blah blah *)] stuff 02:15:49 ...that was very lazily typed 02:15:51 like 02:15:56 I didn't even pay attention to which brackets I was using. 02:16:12 .....alright. night. 02:16:29 I shall ponder on all of this. it's pretty ridiculously genius. 02:17:26 hehe, thanks :P 02:17:32 you should see graphica! 02:17:37 okay, err, night :D 02:17:38 -> 02:18:15 ... 02:18:17 night 02:39:59 it's nice to actually see esolangs that can explore an utterly new concept and retain practicality (i.e. not a tarball) 02:45:02 hmmm... 02:45:14 you could have 02:45:53 a more robust pattern-matching syntax 02:47:01 a - before a single capital letter matches negative lists only... so you could have. 02:47:36 well... no that wouldn't work. 02:47:50 but it would be nice to have a neg function defined somehow. 02:48:12 that would non-recursively flip the polarity of a list. 02:48:32 which would be useful if you had a list that you didn't want to negative-immediately. 02:48:37 sort like quote in lisp. 02:48:41 *sort of 02:50:55 in a pseudo-rewrite-language it would be 02:51:50 [neg [A...]] => [neg ]; 02:51:59 ...er 02:52:39 [neg [A...]] => ; 02:52:41 [neg ] => [A...]; 02:53:12 then abs 02:54:09 [abs [A...]] => [A...]; 02:54:11 [neg ] => [A...]; 02:54:22 ... 02:54:24 god damnit 02:54:40 [abs [A...]] => [A...]; 02:54:42 [abs ] => [A...]; 02:55:07 and then absneg... which does the opposite of abs 02:55:12 or negabs 02:55:42 [negabs A] => [neg [abs A]]; 03:15:03 oklop :D 03:15:05 .. 03:15:07 oklo* 03:15:23 hey! whered tuulia go? >| 03:31:43 wheres EVERYONE gone?! 03:33:43 ... 03:42:42 hi :P 04:13:49 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:29:23 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 04:35:18 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lolwhut?"). 04:40:41 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 04:47:20 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:51:02 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 05:08:57 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 05:15:33 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:17:00 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 05:40:49 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 06:01:06 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lolwhut?"). 06:10:13 -!- cherez has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:10:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:09 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 06:12:30 -!- cherez has joined. 06:12:30 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:44:59 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:45:52 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 07:04:46 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:01:57 -!- RedDak has joined. 09:49:43 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lolwhut?"). 09:52:31 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 09:52:50 after seeing the later levels of those youtube clips 09:52:58 stage 1 looks relatively easy. 10:18:37 -!- tusho has joined. 10:19:14 AnMaster: ping 10:21:15 tusho, yes? 10:21:30 AnMaster: i have definitive proof 10:21:33 recorded by augur 10:21:36 ah 10:21:39 http://vjn.cc/tusho1 10:21:41 http://vjn.cc/tusho2 10:21:47 quicktime mov, so propietary but what the hell 10:21:48 you can convert it 10:21:49 i'm sure 10:21:59 think there's a FOSS decoder for it too 10:22:08 I think xine or mplayer can do it 10:22:23 "Tusho is a girl part 1.mov"!? 10:22:30 wtf are you? 10:22:37 augur thinks I look like a girl 10:22:39 :p 10:23:13 wow 10:23:23 i do actually kind of look like a girl 10:23:25 until near the end 10:23:29 :\ I don't normally look like that. 10:24:07 no sound? 10:24:22 he did record sound 10:24:23 I just didn't speak 10:24:27 ah xine has sound 10:24:30 mplayer doesn't 10:24:48 AnMaster: of course, it's obviously a video filter :p 10:24:57 or incredibly skilled makeup application 10:25:00 ok tusho I admit it, you are a 12 year old girl :P 10:25:04 lmao 10:25:07 nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 10:25:12 tusho, oh yes you are 10:25:22 its my headphones that make me look like that 10:25:24 jeez 10:25:31 i put them on crappily 10:25:53 tusho, or as there was no proof it was you in fact, no talking about monads or so on, could be your little sister ;) 10:25:56 just kidding 10:26:04 well I do think you are a 12 year old girl now 10:26:14 i am male. 10:26:32 i put my headphones on crappily so I looked like a girl. 10:26:36 i do not normally look like a girl. 10:26:37 qed 10:26:48 well what about the long hair 10:26:58 lawl 10:27:20 anyway, I certainly didn't know about monads when I was 12... 10:27:50 *NOMADS 10:27:52 you act like you are quite a few years older than 12. 10:27:57 tusho, berlgh ;P 10:28:01 blergh* 10:28:35 tusho, but I'm convinced you are a girl now. ;P 10:28:52 :| 10:28:57 young one, maybe not 12, hard to say, more like 13-14 10:29:01 * tusho searches for birth certificate 10:29:06 "AH BUT YOU COULD HAVE HAD A SEX CHANGE" 10:29:14 no you couldn't 10:29:17 not at that age 10:29:20 duh 10:29:23 i was mimicking the quality of your arguments 10:29:24 :) 10:29:43 tusho, well augur also thought you were a girl I assume? 10:29:58 well yeah but. i'm not. 10:30:14 besides, a 12 year old male talking about monads in #esoteric is improbable enough 10:30:19 think of the Internet Female Factor added on to that 10:30:24 i'd have to be jesus 10:30:54 besides, a 12 year old male talking about monads in #esoteric is improbable enough 10:30:57 yes exactly 10:31:07 that's what you claim youself to be? 10:31:08 I've been mistakenly thought of being a girl occasionally, too. Both based on physical appearance and because of the IRC nickname, neither of which I think are very girly. 10:31:12 it is like 0.00000000000000000000000001% probability 10:31:18 AnMaster: yes well, I believe i've proved beyond reasonable doubt the -first- part 10:31:21 no one is going to believe you 10:31:22 it's the gender we're arguing over now :p 10:31:25 that's how it is 10:32:08 AnMaster: so wait, i'm not a crazy person who spins a huge story about being 12, so therefore i'm obviously a crazy person who spins a huge story about being male? :) 10:32:36 I guess "obviously crazy" is a given here. 10:32:42 haha 10:32:42 Well, yes. 10:32:44 But. More so. 10:32:52 besides, a 12 year old male talking about monads in #esoteric is improbable enough 10:32:55 it is indeed 10:33:00 so how do you explain it? 10:33:30 uhh, i spent way too much time on the computer and the interwebs since 1997-1998 and 1998-1999 respectively? :) 10:33:42 besides, even if I can't explain it, i've given sufficient evidence 10:33:45 when you were 4 10:33:51 apart from the 'male' part, evidently 10:33:55 your parents let you use internet freely? 10:34:07 AnMaster: can't really remember 10:34:13 i have a vague recollection of the interwebs, but not beyond that 10:35:02 Raised by the internets. 10:35:22 fizzie: I'd be a lot more fscked up if -that- were true :-) 10:40:19 AnMaster: obviously it's good camerawork and a voice filter, right 10:40:20 :) 10:42:24 Photoshopped! 10:42:50 The generic term for any digital manipulation. 10:43:15 tusho, not really 10:43:24 I admit you are a 12-13 year old female 10:43:26 fizzie: i don't think i could photoshop video in realtime 10:43:29 I already said that 10:43:31 I am awesome, but not that awesome. 10:43:38 And shut the hell up AnMaster, I'm of the male gender. 10:44:21 "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." 10:44:29 * tusho rolls eyes 10:45:07 fizzie, stop being a sexist to poor tusho 10:45:20 hah 10:45:25 it can't be easy being female on irc 10:45:35 what with all us male sexists around 10:45:46 isn't that so tusho? 10:46:08 oh shut up 10:48:31 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("HydraIRC -> http://google.com <- Go find something better"). 10:49:00 ha 10:49:05 I like that modified quit message 10:49:24 yeah 10:50:07 tusho, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_culture#In_Popular_Culture 10:50:33 AnMaster: reverted vandalism 10:50:44 tusho, eh? 10:50:54 that section was just added a few minutes ago, AnMaster 10:50:55 i removed it 10:50:59 see: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Popular_culture&action=history 10:51:02 blergh 10:51:17 tusho, it was there a few hours ago 10:51:30 shrug - it's only been there for three revisions of changing it 10:51:32 it has no citations 10:51:36 it's a silly joke 10:51:37 so. 10:51:37 tusho, blergh 10:51:44 you have no humor! 10:52:03 68.112.185.178 (that's not me), obviously had 10:53:09 AnMaster: do you think we should have copious amounts of humour in an encyclopedia? 10:53:23 what if britannica had 'Infinity' saying 'see Infinity' 10:53:26 not really 10:53:27 but 10:53:31 would you consider that a quality encyclopedia entry? 10:53:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wood#In_Popular_Culture_.28see_http:.2F.2Fxkcd.com.2F446.2F.29 10:53:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Popular_culture#Popular_Culture_in_Popular_Culture 10:53:49 see those 10:54:01 1. Needs citations 10:54:06 2. The article does not need that section. 10:54:07 "For my money, it's not necessarily an Encyclopaedic sort of thing to leave out the jokes. Didn't Denis Diderot cross-list the Eucharist with Cannibalism in one of his editions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.118.228 (talk) 22:33, 9 July 2008 (UTC) 10:54:07 I was reading through a C++ dictionary this morning to find "recursion n.: See recursion." Some idea, I suppose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.31.203.186 (talk) 18:48, 14 July 2008 (UTC) 10:54:07 * I wonder how many people died of starvation after getting stuck in that loop. — BRIAN0918" 10:54:08 It's a silly joke. 10:54:21 from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wood 10:54:29 And? 10:54:35 and what? 10:55:28 and what what? 11:59:01 -!- olsner has joined. 12:45:39 -!- Hiato has joined. 12:55:08 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:56:31 Holy shit 12:56:38 Guys, help me. 12:56:43 I solved the halting problem 12:56:52 But the margin is too small to write it down! 13:00:14 Slereah__: quick! grab a new piece of paper and write it all down 13:00:31 at least, get around to doing that before you die :P 13:02:11 Meh. I'll do it when I'm terminally ill. 13:02:11 It can wait 13:02:21 haha 13:02:38 fermats last theorem or what was it where the margin was too small? 13:03:14 The very same 13:03:26 Lazy fuck 13:03:29 Can't go get a piece of paper. 13:03:48 "I'll just let people spend three hundred years looking for it" 13:12:05 he's been laughing in the afterlife for 300 years :D easily worth it! 13:16:07 -!- RedDak has joined. 13:19:32 I think it's most likely that his proof was flawed 13:20:05 given that the only solid proofs we have now are based on maths that didn't exist at the time 13:43:48 what are these maths? 13:45:22 Deewiant: yeah, it was probably really trivial 13:45:24 and really wrong 13:49:18 -!- lilja has joined. 14:04:06 -!- Corun has joined. 14:07:34 log time 14:07:53 oklopol: ? 14:08:03 -!- tusho has set topic: http://vjn.cc/x. 14:13:15 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 14:15:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:26:52 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:34:06 11:52… CakeProphet: after seeing the later levels of those youtube clips 14:34:07 11:52… CakeProphet: stage 1 looks relatively easy. 14:34:09 what game? 14:38:57 tusho: the time i read logs 14:39:05 although i didn't start then 14:41:26 For the record: The Orange Box? Totally awesome. 14:41:53 * pikhq tends to buy games months after they come out. (obviously) 14:42:42 pikhq: *months*? 14:43:24 tusho: Due to apathy + small budget. 14:43:28 pikhq: The Orange Box came out more than months ago. 14:43:46 Probably been about a year now. 14:44:00 Not far off 14:44:14 Also, it doesn't help that I didn't even play Half-Life until recently. . . 14:44:28 Meaning that, until recently, I didn't give a flying fuck about Valve. 14:51:06 what's this box you're referring to? 14:52:24 oh, that. 14:52:44 i don't get why portal gets so much credit for being original and shit 14:52:53 everyone invents the game when learning about portal culling 14:53:44 I didn't 14:53:51 I give Portal credit for being a wonderful implementation of the idea. 14:54:04 but yeah, there was Narbacular Drop and Prey before it 14:54:17 and yeah, Portal is the best implementation. :-) 14:54:22 pikhq: well in my opinion the flash version looked nicer :P 14:54:37 Valve actually hired the guys who wrote Narbacular Drop for Portal. . . 14:54:48 yep 14:55:04 I've also enjoyed Half-Life 2 immensely so far. 14:55:19 Though "so far" doesn't cover much, since I just got the crowbar. 14:55:28 well that one i won't even bother touching 14:55:43 unless someone actually points out something interesting about it 14:55:54 Play Half-Life 1, and you'll get it. 14:55:57 i doubt it differs much from wolfenstein, which sucked ass 14:56:02 i think i've played that 14:56:23 depends on when it came out 14:56:29 '98 14:56:47 then i most likely have played it 14:56:52 "Doubt it differs much from Wolfenstein"? 14:56:53 WTF? 14:57:05 well you move around and shoot people 14:57:17 Well, yes. 14:57:19 there's no cool gravity tricks or portals or anything :O 14:57:36 gravity tricks do not a game make 14:57:44 i rarely enjoy games for anything but an esoteric movement or possibility to built shit 14:57:48 *build 14:58:19 Half-Life is loved not for it being a FPS, but for it being one with an insanely good story. . . 14:58:35 (and generally being realistic) 14:58:39 well yeah, that instantly makes it sound boring 14:58:41 not story or realism, I'd say 14:58:44 more the gameplay 14:58:55 half-life 2 has the best overall gameplay of all FPSs I've played, I think 14:59:00 it just rolls along so nicely 14:59:08 Deewiant: I'd say its story is part of what makes the gameplay so damned wonderful. 14:59:11 though that of course means that it's rather linear 14:59:15 maybe 14:59:17 fps is not an interesting paradigm tho, imo, so that doesn't say much 15:02:37 It seems that Half-Life is the greatest FPS. 15:02:51 At least, according to reviews. . . 15:03:18 And personal experience. 15:06:22 for single player, yes, probably. 15:06:30 the series as a whole, at least. 15:08:07 Given that Half-Life's 'multiplayer mode' entails another game on the same engine, I'd say Half-Life has no chance of being the best multiplayer FPS. :p 15:09:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:09:22 hi ais523 15:09:23 OH YEAH 15:09:28 hi tusho 15:09:38 [15:09] [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 20 seconds. 15:09:40 I think I typed first 15:09:46 but I understand why you wouldn't have seen my reply 15:09:48 I shall check the logs 15:09:55 tusho: I think they'll show you winning 15:10:00 given how bad that ping time was 15:10:02 ais523: and you can check yours 15:10:06 they log when you type 15:10:07 ah, of course 15:10:55 [Fri Jul 18 2008] [15:09:04] hi tusho 15:11:01 [Fri Jul 18 2008] [15:09:22] hi ais523 15:11:07 I'll check mine. 15:11:09 [Fri Jul 18 2008] [15:09:24] OH YEAH 15:11:16 that should be enough to calculate the relative clock skew 15:11:25 wow, we're taking this /far/ too seriously... 15:13:04 ais523: 15:13:05 tushohi ais523 OH YEAHais523hi