00:16:18 You know, I think we need Egobot back. 00:16:25 Only much, much more robust. 00:16:31 that would be botte 00:16:37 If Only It Were Done(TM) 00:17:16 If only I'd bother. 00:17:38 pikhq: botte's planned to have fun stuff like an #esoteric link log 00:17:46 '.l url description' in the channel adds it to the link log 00:17:55 and an atom feed will be provided 00:18:13 I think it'd need to start with being robust. 00:18:22 Which Egobot sure as hell was not. 00:18:27 Didn't it crash daily? 00:18:51 Yes. 00:18:54 Botte should be pretty stable. 00:19:09 It'll be written in Ruby (yeah, yeah, I know you hate it) 00:19:26 but C++ programs, especially ones written like they're in C like egobot, generally are prone to crash more than scripting language ones 00:19:35 esp. since egobot's parser was ... rusty, to say the least 00:21:07 Bullshit. 00:21:14 C++ programs can be written damned well. 00:21:20 pikhq: I didn't deny that, of course. 00:21:28 And, actually, I'm ashamed at Gregor for *not* doing it right. 00:21:34 But what I'm saying is for a bloomin' IRC bot, C++ is an unneccesary fuss. 00:21:37 Of course, that was one of his earlier programs. 00:21:40 Okay, okay. 00:21:43 Tcl it is. 00:21:43 :p 00:21:45 :p 00:31:05 -!- Corun has joined. 00:57:40 -!- tusho has quit. 01:18:39 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:39:36 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 01:43:22 -!- lilja has quit ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'"). 02:08:16 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 02:33:21 -!- mib_jclua3 has joined. 02:34:21 -!- mib_jclua3 has quit (Client Quit). 02:43:49 Interesting updates to calamari's Facebook page recently: Mormon->no religion, joined the groups "I'm a Secular Humanist" and "Ex-Mormons Worldwide". 02:49:20 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 02:49:20 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:33:07 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:39:47 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 04:47:06 traitor!!! 05:33:57 -!- calamari has joined. 06:10:19 -!- olsner has joined. 06:19:49 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:57:37 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 07:27:08 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:18:06 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 08:29:57 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:21:27 -!- Mony has joined. 09:22:08 hi there ! 09:25:42 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving."). 09:28:30 -!- jemarch has joined. 10:03:27 -!- ErkiDerLoony has joined. 10:31:06 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:31:18 -!- oklopol has joined. 10:54:03 -!- jix has joined. 11:04:49 -!- ErkiDerLoony has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:08:43 -!- ErkiDerLoony has joined. 11:12:11 -!- tusho has joined. 11:37:32 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:37:39 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:07:52 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 12:28:35 -!- kar8nga has joined. 12:32:44 bye 12:32:48 -!- Mony has quit ("A FATAL ERROR WAS ENCOUNTERED"). 14:03:58 tusho, when you see ais523 please point him to http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=18937 \o/ 14:04:06 my first arch linux package is c-intercal :D 14:04:14 AnMaster: given up on gentoo? 14:04:23 http://intercal.freeshell.org/download/ick-${pkgver/./-}.tgz 14:04:23 tusho, nah 14:04:27 fun bug in the web interface 14:04:40 tusho, I just use arch on this old p3 14:04:44 still gentoo on my amd64 14:04:56 this off-handedly reminds me that I need to write that article about os x 14:05:06 tusho, eh? 14:05:09 bbl guests 14:10:03 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:11:37 tusho, indeed it seems the web interface can't handle bash substitutions, but the program used to build packages can do that 15:01:17 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:07:44 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 15:17:31 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:34:40 -!- fizzie has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:34:41 -!- moozilla has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:34:41 -!- shachaf has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:36:01 concatenative languages are fun 15:38:06 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 15:39:21 blergh I don't understand how to translate the versioning of clc-intercal 15:39:32 -!- moozilla has joined. 15:39:32 -!- fizzie has joined. 15:39:32 -!- shachaf has joined. 15:45:11 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:47:54 -!- Hiato1 has joined. 15:50:23 -!- MikeRiley has joined. 15:59:46 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:59:50 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:01:16 -!- navaburo has joined. 16:02:21 -!- MikeRiley has quit ("Leaving"). 16:12:14 -!- lament has joined. 16:19:36 -!- olsner has joined. 16:31:02 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 17:01:12 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:14:01 -!- jemarch has quit ("ERC Version 5.0 (CVS) $Revision: 1.1.1.1 $ (IRC client for Emacs)"). 17:17:33 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:18:01 hi tusho 17:18:06 hi ais523 17:18:14 bad time, I'm about to disappear soon for ~25m 17:18:25 ok, that's fine, it normally takes me about that long to read my email 17:18:30 and I'm not very communicative during that time 17:31:27 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:05:05 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 18:06:58 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 18:06:58 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:17:24 -!- Mony has joined. 18:17:55 ruse 18:19:31 Mony: ? 18:20:18 oh... in french, we say "Re", when we see again a person 18:20:49 but, i say "ruse", 'cause i think it's pretiest 18:20:57 ah 18:27:49 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving."). 18:49:20 -!- jix has joined. 18:56:26 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 18:56:49 -!- jix has joined. 19:25:58 bye 19:26:01 -!- Mony has quit ("A FATAL ERROR WAS ENCOUNTERED"). 19:33:33 ais523, hi 19:33:42 ais523, http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=18937 <-- c-intercal 19:34:31 AnMaster: is that your fault or did you just come across it? 19:34:43 ais523, look at maintainer :P 19:34:46 ah, it's yours by the look of it 19:34:57 ais523, is there some RSS feed or news letter for new C-INTERCAL releases? 19:35:04 * AnMaster ducks 19:35:07 news://alt.lang.intercal 19:35:13 hahah 19:35:20 no, seriously, that's the official place 19:35:23 * AnMaster fires up usenet client 19:35:26 and it doesn't seem to be used by anyone else atm 19:35:32 although it ought to be 19:35:45 it's known to have a large number of lurkers despite having no traffic 19:35:57 so it's an unusual case of a newsgroup that lots of people read but nobody writes in 19:36:06 well, large for esolang stuff 19:36:08 ais523, yes it got traffic "Get Green-Fuel Solution$$$ 65482" 19:36:09 :P 19:36:11 I hate spam 19:36:24 oh, I just ignore the spam 19:36:30 same 19:36:36 but there is no good spam filter 19:37:09 besides it's so dead that even the spam doesn't come up very often 19:37:25 at work, I have like 30k actual e-mails and (so far) 0 spam e-mails :D 19:39:08 Does anyone know a free news server? 19:39:21 Because I changed my provider and the new one does not have a news server ... 19:39:40 ErkiDerLoony, newszilla6.xs4all.nl is a free ipv6 readonly one 19:39:53 don't know of any that allow posting 19:39:59 apart from google groups 19:40:06 Hm, k. 19:41:39 ais523, and what did you mean "fault" with the package 19:41:50 AnMaster: responsibility 19:41:59 thanks that better 19:42:07 it is as if you didn't like packages ;P 19:42:22 ais523, however the Arch guidelines say version number should be same as upstream 19:42:26 which will cause issues of course 19:43:08 use major.minor.major 19:43:29 well they prefer same as upstream exactly 19:43:38 well, let them figure it out 19:43:48 ais523, anyway AUR = user maintained 19:43:54 eso stuff is useful for pressure-testing other people's systems 19:43:55 not part of official repo 19:44:04 oh yes it is 19:44:13 for instance CLC-INTERCAL exposed a bug in mandb that was capable of crashing man completely 19:44:22 ais523, I doubt it will ever become part of the community repo 19:44:25 apparently it doesn't like man pages to have spaces in their filenames 19:44:42 well spaces in filenames 19:44:49 why the heck did CLC-INTERCAL want that? 19:44:58 ais523, also it isn't like anyone except debian use mandb 19:45:12 how do they get apropos databases then? 19:45:17 makewhatis 19:45:29 ah, good to know 19:45:39 I'll stick with my autoconf thing anyway, as it should recognise that mandb isn't needed 19:45:40 NAME 19:45:40 makewhatis - Create the whatis database 19:46:07 ais523, makewhatis is run by cron once a week here 19:46:28 well an install isn't really an install if your program isn't properly installed until next week 19:46:41 ais523, hah 19:47:00 anyway I have to patch the change of /usr/share/info/dir away on all systems 19:47:08 because it cause errors when you install to DESTDIR 19:47:11 which is the normal way 19:47:22 AnMaster: I downgraded that to a warning for the next version 19:47:25 ais523, in fact arch strips all info pages by default 19:49:14 anyway I tried C-INTERCAL on cygwin, it worked 'out of the box' 19:49:19 -F didn't work but I wasn't really sure if it would 19:49:22 you told us 19:49:38 hmm... what OS should I try next? 19:49:46 ais523, IRIX? 19:49:48 the issue is that I've done pretty much all the OSs I have access to now 19:49:48 Sun OS? 19:49:55 ais523, ah well 19:49:57 AnMaster: SunOS was the first OS I ran it on 19:50:01 hah ok 19:50:04 before I even got a computer that ran Linux 19:50:14 does it still work on that? 19:50:21 I don't see why it wouldn't 19:50:28 although I'll probably test again some time before the next release 19:50:36 it needs a bit of tweaking to work around the limitations of Sun lex 19:50:41 but there's information on that in the README 19:51:04 (basically you need to preallocate memory with a set of directives, the error messages tell you exactly what to do so it's surprising that lex doesn't just do it itself 19:51:06 s/$/)/ 19:51:26 ais523, what about Solaris then? 19:51:33 I don't have a copy of it to try 19:51:41 ais523, iirc it is free nowdays 19:51:45 could work in a vm 19:51:52 yes, there's OpenSolaris 19:52:04 although all sorts of interesting questions for that were opened up by the SCO vs. Novell case 19:52:04 no even normal solaris too 19:52:20 apparently SCO sold Sun a license to open-source Solaris that they weren't allowed to sell 19:52:29 and nobody's entirely sure what the result of that will be 19:52:56 wait SCO wasn't allowed? by who? 19:53:25 AnMaster: basically they were trying to sell something that wasn't theirs in the first place 19:53:33 which was the rights to open-source AT&T Unix 19:53:39 at least that's what the court ruled 19:53:42 weird 19:53:50 so why did they even try to sell it? 19:53:57 to get the money? 19:54:40 well I mean, if AT&T owns the stuff how could they sell any of what they tried to claim they did 19:54:51 well, they said they owned it and presumably Sun believed them 19:54:58 and they claimed they owned it in the courts too, they just lost 19:55:31 but solaris isn't based on AT&T unix is it? 19:55:45 not sure, probably bits of it are 19:55:59 I can't imagine that it's all BSD 19:56:13 some of it is probably from scratch 19:56:53 well, they can open-source those bits legally 19:56:54 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:56:59 but bits of it are likely to not be owned by them 19:57:03 nor SCO, as it turned out 19:57:22 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:57:37 ais523, and what did AT&T say then? 19:57:48 well, Novell claim that they own the copyrights now 19:57:52 which hasn't been proven either way 19:57:58 but SCO claimed to have bought them from Novell 19:58:07 and Novell have proved that they didn't sell them to them 19:58:13 SCO vs. Novell went to court a while back. 19:58:26 pikhq: yes, that's what I'm talking about, I'm giving a quick summary for AnMaster 19:58:40 It is the verdict of the court that Novell owns the copyright to UNIX. 19:58:49 how did they do that? 19:58:51 Well, those parts which are under copyright at all. 19:58:52 pikhq: not quite, it is the verdict of the court that Novell didn't sell it to SCO 19:59:14 I don't think it's been conclusively proved that Novell ever owned it in the first place, but it does seem plausible 19:59:18 it certainly changed hands a lot 19:59:23 (a very, *very* solid chunk of UNIX is in the public domain, thanks to AT&T vs. BSDi) 19:59:42 pikhq: yes, I agree with that, BSD is pretty safe 19:59:47 but there are non-BSD Unices 20:00:03 well linux isn't based on that either 20:00:07 so not an issue for linux 20:00:15 well, obviously, SCO were claiming it were but nobody believes them 20:00:42 it's pretty clear Linux was written from scratch, even if it does have a file called errno.h in it 20:00:59 of course it does, that is in the damn POSIX specs 20:01:07 (most of SCO's arguments seem obviously wrong to a programmer but might possibly confuse a non-tech-savvy judge) 20:01:55 Actually, that case ruled that early non-BSD Unices were public domain, IIRC. 20:02:07 (ones before AT&T started selling UNIX) 20:02:44 but it's been modified since then 20:02:50 True. 20:03:20 Of course, the Unices not in public domain or under the BSD license are not exactly floating around in the open... 20:03:44 pikhq, hm? 20:04:02 I'm afraid I didn't understand that idiom(?) 20:04:40 pikhq, ^ 20:04:48 AnMaster: Meaning: you're not exactly going to *see* various non-free Unices' source code. 20:04:54 indeed 20:06:07 Of course, SCO seems to operate under the influence of a variety of hallucinogens, explaining their court case. 20:06:08 ;) 20:06:34 well, there's a major conspiracy theory that someone was paying them to keep it going as long as possible 20:06:47 also it increased their share price for a bit while people thought they actually had a chance, that didn't last long though 20:07:27 Actually, the only conspiracy theory is concerning the *purpose* of Microsoft's fairly large licensing agreement with them. 20:07:45 pikhq: you aren't reading enough conspiracy theories, then 20:08:13 Insanely large payouts to SCO for no apparent reason are a matter of public record. ;) 20:08:31 (I mean, honestly: Microsoft buying SCOsource licenses? Why?!?) 20:08:36 well, they found out what Microsoft had allegedly bought 20:09:15 zoop 20:09:32 i dislike Novell 20:09:40 even if it was a sound contract 20:09:44 they got bullied in to it 20:09:49 and caved in as one of the largest commercial linux outfits 20:10:18 tusho, eh? 20:10:23 AnMaster: what? 20:10:31 tusho, what contract? 20:10:37 the Novell-Microsoft contract 20:10:39 read up dude... 20:10:43 ah 20:10:43 ^^^^ up that way 20:10:48 where Novell and Microsoft agreed not to sue each other over patents 20:10:54 ah 20:10:59 Microsoft paid Novell a lot of money for it too 20:11:09 and the result was bad press for Novell 20:12:05 microsoft are probably on the death row 20:12:14 recovering from vista will be nigh-on impossible 20:12:21 it'll be a loooooooooooooong trawl though... 20:12:28 they've already announced the vaporware for the next version 20:12:34 in fact two next versions 20:12:39 both Windows 7 and something they call Midori 20:12:50 although loads of things are called Midori because it's a common Japanese word 20:12:55 yes 20:13:01 Midori, in concept, seems very, *very* insecure. 20:13:08 what does Midori mean? 20:13:14 AnMaster: green as in ecological 20:13:16 like trees and shit 20:13:17 (I believe) 20:13:19 AnMaster: it's a word for a colour, it has a similar meaning to "green" 20:13:23 ah 20:13:32 but the two aren't exactly the same 20:13:32 "similar meaning"? 20:13:43 midori kind of signals how out of touch microsoft are 20:13:44 ais523, so what shade of green then? 20:13:45 Basically, their security model: if the kernel is secure, then the OS is secure. If the kernel is insecure, then welcome to DOS. 20:13:51 they come up with a project which is like a bastardised TUNES 20:13:52 I don't know, I'm not an expert on Japanese 20:13:54 AnMaster: It's just green. 20:13:57 except, more crap 20:13:58 * pikhq knows Japanese. 20:14:21 oh and 20:14:29 WINDOZE "MO' HA VEY" 20:14:33 It does happen to also have the same 'ecological' connotations. 20:14:39 tusho, windows what? 20:14:47 [spoiler]WINDOZE MO HA VEY IS PEOPLE^W VISTA[/spoiler] 20:14:50 AnMaster: Mojave. 20:14:55 ah 20:14:58 They showed Vista to some people who had never used it 20:15:01 but had heard bad things about it 20:15:03 and thus disliked it 20:15:12 they all loved "Mojave" then they told them it was Vista. 20:15:22 Of course, they've carefully selected whose responses they've shown, etc. 20:15:25 tusho: I wonder which bit of it they showed them, though? 20:15:28 They showed a 10 minute demo. 20:15:34 well, yes exactly 20:15:38 ah, so they didn't interact with it themselves? 20:15:38 pikhq: didn't they let them use it a bit? 20:15:42 It wasn't "here, use this for a few days." 20:15:42 in a limited fashion 20:15:47 their website seemed to suggest that 20:15:50 It was a scripted demo. 20:15:54 like, a 30-hour tour of it that they could actually use 20:15:56 oh, ok 20:15:57 that's even worse 20:16:01 no copies from network shares to USB sticks? 20:16:06 Nope. 20:16:22 Just "Oooh, look. It can run Windows Media Player!" 20:16:29 Jeez. 20:16:31 "Oh, wow. you mean the computer can play vidoes now?" 20:16:40 vidoes indeed 20:16:42 but the last good version of Windows Media Player was the one that came with Windows 98 20:16:54 ais523: it has a continuation in Media Player Classic 20:16:59 which has the interface of WMP 7 20:17:00 ah, that's good to know 20:17:03 but modern codecs, etc 20:17:04 (not official) 20:17:14 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Player_Classic 20:17:21 ah, 6.4 20:17:21 not 7 20:17:32 I just use mplayer, with win32codecs 20:17:38 AnMaster: this is for windows 20:17:48 mplayer on windows, while technically possible, is a bit pointless 20:17:54 tusho, well vlc got a windows version iirc 20:17:54 well, normally I'm playing things on Linux so there isn't a problem 20:18:03 AnMaster: yes, I've got VLC on my USB stick 20:18:04 vlc has some major shortcomings 20:18:11 it's the usual way to play ogg on Windows, I think 20:19:25 anyway I haven't used windows for years 20:19:44 well yes, I have, helped parents with computer problems, but not as my own OS 20:28:51 you know 20:29:02 for once i'd like to see a scifi show where computer programs look like computer programs 20:29:23 I've seen scifi shows where they're apparently written in COBOL 20:29:48 I'd like to see sci-fi shows written by good sci-fi authors. 20:29:52 well, i do know that some stargate has used some JS stuff for replicator code 20:29:55 Neon Genesis Evangelion had a snapshot of HTML 20:30:11 but i'd like to see some real potential code 20:30:54 like.. some forth code that actually looks like it does what its supposed to do 20:31:12 (i say forth because the NASA types use forth a lot, i hear) 20:32:02 Deewiant: lisp too 20:32:05 (why do I know this?) 20:32:37 oh, where was that 20:32:52 * tusho shrugs. I have never watched the series. 20:32:58 I know so much trivia about things I know nothing about... 20:33:26 hmm, I seem to recall that Serial Experiments Lain had something in Lisp 20:33:40 but not NGE, though 20:35:19 i can imagine SEL having it, definitely 20:35:25 they were total nerds, the writers and animators 20:35:28 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfive. 20:35:49 hmm, i think this is another anime series I know nothing about sans some trivia - doesn't it reference the knights of the lambda calculus? 20:35:53 or am I confusing it with something else 20:36:07 it could 20:36:09 its lain 20:36:10 who the fuck knows 20:36:18 I think it did 20:36:31 but I'd really like to know where you got the Lisp in NGE :-P 20:36:33 In the anime series Serial Experiments Lain, there is a secret society called the Knights of the Eastern Calculus which is a reference to the Knights of the Lambda Calculus.[1] 20:37:05 Deewiant: it might have been c 20:37:11 i am not good at -accurate- trivia 20:37:23 tusho: are you good at making up inaccurate trivia on the spot? 20:37:35 ais523: no, but Alan Turing was 20:37:41 haha 20:37:42 he won a competition for making up inaccurate trivia on the spot in 1931 20:37:43 turing 20:37:44 <3 20:37:49 (a year before he was born) 20:37:57 tusho <3 20:37:59 :D 20:38:04 * ais523 laughs at that, too 20:38:27 i love making up trivia at random 20:38:48 someone comments that such and such doesnt seem very much like something some group of people would do 20:39:11 tusho: alright, then I'd like to know where you got anything-besides-HTML in NGE »_« 20:39:12 ill turn around and make up a long and extensive account of the cultural/historical significance of doing exactly that 20:39:20 Deewiant: no idea, sorry 20:39:33 meh 20:39:53 we should totally start a contest like that dude omg 20:47:46 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:48:22 -!- Judofyr has joined. 20:54:39 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:04:56 -!- Hiato1 has quit ("Leaving."). 21:07:56 -!- megatron has joined. 21:07:59 -!- pikhq has left (?). 21:18:31 -!- moozilla has quit (Connection timed out). 21:45:11 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 21:47:02 "MSGQ" 21:47:05 now that seems cool 21:47:12 ais523, ^ 21:47:20 but what the heck does it actually do? 21:47:41 shouldn't it, like, have an introduction 21:47:52 it seems to maintain a message queue, a bit like the one Windows uses for all its API communications between processes 21:47:59 oh my 21:48:01 although based on the errno values this seems to be a UNIXised version of that 21:48:03 "REXP" 0x52455850 21:48:03 C(0gnirts flags -- )Compile a regular expression 21:48:05 wtf :P 21:48:09 just wtf 21:48:14 we are going to get lazy it seems 21:48:24 AnMaster: that's an optimisation for speed, I thought you liked those? 21:48:30 "SETS" I don't get at all 21:48:40 it's a Pascal data type 21:48:41 ais523, no I mean having a regular expression extension at all 21:48:53 AnMaster: what's WTF about that, regexen are useful 21:48:59 ais523, assume it was over 7 years since I last messed with pascal 21:49:19 ok, basically a set is to an enum as checkboxes are to radio boxes 21:49:22 ais523, tell of any other esolang with regex as a loadable extension 21:49:25 an enum can have exactly one value from its set 21:49:30 ah 21:49:33 so a bitmask? 21:49:35 whereas a set can have 0, 1, or more 21:49:37 like a bitmask 21:49:57 {ais523, tell of any other esolang with regex as a loadable extension} 21:50:01 or struct { bool first:1; bool second:1; and so on 21:50:02 tell me another esolang with loadable extensions. 21:50:05 or TRDS. 21:50:08 tusho, good point ;P 21:50:11 or TOYS. 21:50:12 well there is perl 21:50:12 or anything, really. 21:50:17 it got loadable extensions 21:50:17 perl is not an esolang 21:50:18 tusho: C-INTERCAL has compilable-in extensions 21:50:19 it got regex 21:50:26 tusho, see entry on esolang wiki :P 21:50:26 as much as cheap jokes would like you to believe. 21:50:28 but I haven't done a regex one yet 21:50:33 tusho, yeah I know :P 21:50:41 loadable extensions are boring 21:50:47 "SMEM" 21:50:47 we need an esolang with unloadable extensions 21:50:48 lol 21:50:51 "shared memory segment" 21:50:54 wtf is this :! 21:50:59 AnMaster: it's a communication primitive 21:51:05 to communicate between threads and/or processes 21:51:12 you have memory that more than one process can read/write 21:51:14 ais523, yes but I mean the whole fucking funge space is shared for gods sake! 21:51:15 lament: a cannibalistic esolang 21:51:23 it can end with removing the remove instruction itself 21:51:28 yep 21:51:32 BEGIN 21:51:35 REMOVE BEGIN 21:51:38 REMOVE END 21:51:40 REMOVE REMOVE 21:51:44 ais523, semaphore tooo 21:51:57 ais523, for gods sake, we got >< and p for a reason 21:51:58 AnMaster: what if you're sharing memory with a non-Befunge program? 21:52:05 ais523, is that what it does? 21:52:08 it isn't clear at all then 21:52:09 it looks like it can 21:52:21 that's why it mentions all that POSIX stuff 21:52:31 well shared memory is optional in POSIX iirc 21:52:55 lament: don't see why you need begin/end 21:53:02 anyway it's more mind-fucking if you can remove them using their own syntax 21:53:03 like this: 21:53:04 so there's more stuff to remove 21:53:09 !(!) 21:53:16 it's a language with unloadable extensions 21:53:16 ais523, oh god a "STCK" too 21:53:18 !(}) 21:53:20 I've written INTERCAL programs that end by ABSTAINING from all commands 21:53:21 so it needs some extensions to unload 21:53:28 except GIVE UP 21:53:38 "TRGR" 0x54524752 21:53:42 ais523, I don't get that one at all 21:53:50 it needs some introduction 21:54:04 because no one will be able to understand what it does from the current docs 21:54:19 ah, I think I get what it does 21:54:24 oh? 21:54:24 you have a set of subroutines 21:54:28 which any thread can activate 21:54:34 right 21:54:36 and if you activate one it creates a new thread to run it 21:54:45 so it's just shorthand for t followed by a jump 21:55:04 ok... now I'm just waiting for PTHD (pthreads) 21:55:05 ;P 21:55:10 anyone want to define it? 21:55:12 anyone? 21:55:21 (no I won't implement it) 21:55:39 "EMEM" 0x454d454d 21:55:39 A(size -- hnd)Allocate memory 21:55:40 oh god 21:55:47 argh!" 21:55:55 "This is essentially an interface into malloc." 21:55:56 yep 21:56:00 ok, I think e's just trying to port the whole of C's stdlib into Befunge 21:56:07 ais523, :( 21:56:19 ais523, he should have gone for a FFI simply 21:56:22 I can see how a malloc-alike would be useful in Befunge, though 21:56:43 ais523, oh? 21:56:48 because although Funge-without-fingerprints is fine for things like variable-length arrays 21:56:58 it's no good for things like linked lists or n-ary trees 21:57:08 ais523, this will mess up with stuff like garbage collector 21:57:08 (it can do a binary tree with the heapsort storage trick, though) 21:57:13 and non-C implementations 21:57:32 AnMaster: not really 21:57:49 AnMaster: I've implemented malloc in Perl before 21:57:50 slowly 21:57:55 ais523, it can do any of those things without fingerprints, it's Turing complete for gods sake 21:58:01 but I rewrote the program in C for speed and just used built-in malloc 21:58:05 e.g. for python just have a dictionary from int to list of bytes or whatever 21:58:17 AnMaster: Turing completeness is not necessary good enough to do shared memory though 21:58:22 ais523, agreed 21:58:26 but why the heck do you want it 21:58:32 (except python already has an interface to malloc) 21:58:37 ais523, I never used shared memory in any program I ever wrote 21:59:01 that doesn't mean it's useless 21:59:12 indeed not 21:59:16 but still 21:59:19 I haven't used it either, but I haven't written the sort of program where it would be useful 21:59:27 well what sort of program is that? 21:59:50 one that needs high-speed communication with a known server 21:59:51 ais523, anyway of those listed there I will most likely implement LONG when I have time 21:59:55 not sure about the other ones 22:00:00 probably one or two at most 22:00:03 think clients for database programs communicating with a database daemon for instance 22:00:04 and night 22:00:17 ais523, mysql use sockets at least 22:00:28 yes, it does, but shared memory could be faster for some things 22:00:35 e.g. if you were storing bitmaps in the database 22:00:50 and the database was stored in memory for some reason 22:00:54 like performance 22:01:01 night 22:01:23 night 22:02:16 night 22:03:56 ais523: Does the memory need to be shared as such at any point? 22:04:23 for a start, transactions will need duplication 22:04:28 SimonRC: you can blit it from one process to the other 22:04:34 and I was thinking of reading rather than writing 22:04:41 ok 22:04:47 writing would have to be slower I expect, due to the need for transactions 22:05:01 if one process wants to write, transferring ownership is usually good enough 22:05:05 but there are asm instructions for blitting nowadays 22:05:14 ais523: are there? 22:05:21 how fast are they? 22:05:22 I think so, not sure though 22:05:27 and probably faster than doing it the regular wayy 22:05:30 s/y$// 22:06:00 I have some ideas for an esoteric programming style that relies on really really fast blitting. 22:06:35 like, a few 100 cycles to transfer 64kb of data 22:07:10 it would need Smart Memory to be done well 22:07:24 I don't think anything blits /that/ fast... 22:07:34 except copy-on-write, but that just delays the blit 22:07:57 I am thinking of reference-free programming 22:08:18 programmming without pointers or references 22:08:27 in Feather, pass by reference and pass by value are indistinguishable 22:08:29 the idea is very undeveloped 22:08:32 because all variables are read-only 22:08:36 ais523: where is Feather? 22:08:49 in my head, I've talked about it a lot but never managed to write a spec for it 22:08:49 ais523: or Haskell for that matter 22:08:54 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 22:08:54 I've tried but it's difficult 22:09:09 what, Haskell or Feather? 22:09:28 Feather 22:09:36 speccing it is non-trivial 22:09:41 I think I'll have to write an interp first 22:09:47 to see what is and isn't possible 22:09:52 and use that as a guide for the spec 22:10:16 how does it get round the no-mutation problems? 22:10:26 the same way as most functional langs? 22:10:36 you go back in time to the moment a variable received its value 22:10:40 and change the value it received 22:10:45 so no, not the same way as most functional langs 22:10:50 oh wow! 22:11:10 this should be good 22:11:30 SimonRC: it has eval as a function 22:11:32 and you can change the langauge 22:11:34 by changing eval 22:11:40 it starts off as a prototype-based language 22:11:44 that handles inheritance through time travel 22:11:50 lol 22:11:59 you think I'm joking? 22:12:18 no 22:13:00 it's a bit hard to get it usable and self-consistent, though 22:15:17 -!- megatron has changed nick to moozilla. 22:15:52 ais523: you don't say... 22:26:23 who here wants to test a little design for a site I've been working on 22:26:28 technically powered by mediawiki but that's irrelevant 22:26:42 just looking for comments & suggestions, realy 22:26:43 *really 22:26:47 http://91.105.115.23/on/FooBarBaz:Sandbox 22:28:01 * SimonRC goes to bed in a moment. 22:28:38 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 22:37:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:38:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:56:22 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:58:10 lively channel today 22:59:30 tusho: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/81438/ 22:59:43 more vab 23:00:17 it reminds me a bit of Deadfish 23:00:19 my first code in C :) 23:00:26 ais523: it is basically 23:00:31 that french guy's first lang 23:00:36 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 23:00:41 marty or whatever 23:04:21 is the name of this language Deadfish ? 23:04:47 no 23:21:30 Deadfish has a square command rather than double and halve, and uses different characters for the commands 23:21:40 also it sets the value to 0 if it ever becomes 256 or -1 23:33:04 ZOOOOOOOOOOM 23:33:10 s/M/P/ 23:33:17 ZOOOOOOOOOOT 23:44:06 anybody here? 23:44:21 i am reading about cutting down brainfuck's commands... 23:44:25 about the unified i/o 23:44:27 I'm here for a few minutes 23:44:29 [<,>]@[<.>@] 23:44:30 possibly less 23:44:38 have you read the Esolang page about cutting it down? 23:44:40 is this thing right? 23:44:45 yeap 23:44:52 that what's i am reading now 23:44:56 gosh, ais523 is still here 23:45:00 and it's almost midnight 23:45:12 tusho: you can tell if I'm here by looking to see if I'm still here, I disconnect when I leave 23:45:19 but the first loop in the code I posted seems like an infinite one... or not? 23:45:35 yes, it is 23:45:43 ??? then? 23:45:44 ais523: http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/b/b5/Exploding-head.gif 23:45:47 half the BF minimisation page looks wrong to me 23:45:56 ah ok... 23:46:04 i'll put a note there... 23:46:47 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1""). 23:48:01 zot 23:54:17 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).