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00:18:54 <psygnisfive> i accidentally snorted cayenne pepper powder x.x
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00:28:35 <lament> describe your sensations
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01:41:52 <bsmntbombdood> i know that actually insufflating cayenne paper will incapacitate you for at least half an hour
01:42:06 <psygnisfive> oh im sure it will if you snort a line of it, yeah
01:43:41 <pikhq> ... Snorting cayenne?
01:43:56 <bsmntbombdood> i once made a batch of popcorn and accidentally used cayenne instead of paprika. it was left unedible but for some reason i left it on the counter for a few days, and every time i walked past i would forget and be like "oooh popcorn!" and eat some and spend a while sneezing and crying
01:43:57 <pikhq> I may be a bit of a capsaicin nut, but that seems a bit much, even for me.
01:44:29 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Um, how would that be unedible?
01:44:39 <pikhq> Cayenne isn't *that* hot.
01:44:54 <pikhq> Okay, fine, so it might taste shitty...
01:45:06 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: the airborne powder was most of the problem
01:45:43 <bsmntbombdood> like i said, eating it caused sneezing, sniffling, and crying
01:46:17 <pikhq> Some people react like that to jalepenos. ;)
01:46:25 <psygnisfive> did you know that paprika is just dried powderized red bell peppers?
01:46:42 <psygnisfive> and that almost all hot peppers, and bell peppers as well, are actually just different varieties of the same species?
01:47:01 <pikhq> Actually, there's about 3 or 4 different species of capsicum.
01:47:38 <pikhq> Most of them are cultivars of one capsicum species, IIRC, but there are a few other species.
01:47:47 <psygnisfive> pikhq: i know there are three or four species, but most, e.g. cayennes, jalapenos, habaneros, etc. are all the same species
01:48:10 <pikhq> Habaneros are a different species from jalepenos, IIRC.
01:48:29 <pikhq> But jalepenos, cayennes, bell peppers, etc. are definitely the same species.
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01:52:45 <bsmntbombdood> ...M-c closes the current window, M-space shows/hides the scratchpad
01:53:04 <pikhq> For the record: pvmove fuckups *suck*.
01:54:50 <psygnisfive> space and c are really close together and its silly to assign that functionality to them
01:55:08 <psygnisfive> itd be like assigning "save" and "close without save" to two adjacent keys
01:56:07 <pikhq> Of all the typos I've done, c instead of space is not among them.
01:56:54 <pikhq> Okay, so my right thumb is on meta.
01:57:11 <pikhq> And my left thumb on space.
01:57:22 <psygnisfive> good user interface design dictates that such things should not be so close together
02:20:33 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | <bsmntbombdood> lol tornado brb.
02:26:44 <pikhq> Who the hell uses the right index finger on space?
02:27:09 <pikhq> I mean, honestly; the index finger just damned well better not be moving that damned far.
02:28:01 <Dewi> pikhq: actually I do
02:28:18 <Dewi> pikhq: not consciously, but occasionally I have encountered these insane keyboards where the right half of the spacebar is backspace
02:28:35 <Dewi> pikhq: and it's quite possibly the worst design decision in the history of human interface devices
02:29:03 <Dewi> (oh actually I mean thumb, not index finger)
02:31:36 <pikhq> ... The right half of the spacebar is backspace?
02:31:44 <pikhq> That is *terrible*.
02:32:01 <pikhq> Next person to move backspace from the upper right of the keyboard gets shot, IMO.
02:32:20 * pikhq thinks that Sun should be shot, for what it's worth
02:34:26 <bsmntbombdood> if i were to use my other thumb i'd have to take my hand off the mouse, my drink, my cock, whatever
02:37:38 <Dewi> pikhq: yeah, I tried using it for like half an hour and eventually conceded defeat. I just could *not* use it
02:38:03 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: "Mouse"?
02:38:03 <Dewi> pikhq: I can't even remember where this was. Maybe some ancient computer lab at university
02:38:29 <pikhq> Oh, that's that pointless input device that sits next to my keyboard, isn't it?
02:38:49 <bsmntbombdood> "ooooh i don't use a mouse my epeen is huuuuuuuuge look at me!"
02:38:56 <Dewi> Why *do* we have separate devices for mouse and cock? They could probably be merged...
02:39:15 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: My epeen is only huge because I wrote PEBBLE. :p
02:39:29 <pikhq> My lack of a mouse is only for personal sanity purposes.
02:39:51 <Dewi> pikhq: the mouse is useful for web browsing and games
02:40:08 <pikhq> Web browsing? Meh.
02:40:17 <Dewi> pikhq: speaking of which, did they ever fix hit-a-hint or come up with any decent keyboard browsing tools?
02:40:18 <pikhq> Link numbering is very handy.
02:40:35 <Dewi> pikhq: if you're using lynx, yeah. What about in firefox?
02:40:47 <pikhq> I use the Conkeror web browser. . .
02:41:14 <Dewi> except it says "inspired by emacs" at the top
02:41:15 <pikhq> Which is a browser with an Emacs-like interface in XULrunner.
02:41:32 <pikhq> It also has a Vi mode, though I'm not sure how useful that is.
02:41:42 <Dewi> the only thing emacs inspires is fear, misery, and wretchedness
02:41:55 <Dewi> or maybe I should do that tutorial
02:42:00 <Dewi> and join the cult
02:42:19 <Dewi> I certainly feel more inclined to do so now that I know there is xemacs made by people who think stallman is nuts
02:42:31 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: That would be Conkeror.
02:43:02 <pikhq> Conkeror used to be a Firefox plugin; they've found that it's much easier to get it to play nicely by just using XULrunner.
02:43:54 <bsmntbombdood> i tried conkeror for a while, but it was pretty poorly done
02:44:07 <Dewi> anyway there is a firefox extension that allows you to hold a key and it renders chord-key-sequences next to every link
02:44:20 <Dewi> which works nicely but they made some stupid change like breaking the spacebar
02:44:26 <Dewi> and I haven't used it since
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02:48:11 <pikhq> It's much better done now.
02:48:28 <pikhq> If you will excuse me, I need to go into single user mode to futz with LVM.
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02:57:42 <bsmntbombdood> broke any other extensions that use the ui if i remember right
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03:30:23 <pikhq> Well, I'm logged in and still pvmove'ing.
03:30:41 <pikhq> Though I *am* here with /home readonly.
03:37:44 <pikhq> I've developed an extreme sense of paranoia towards LVM recently...
03:44:14 <lament> this chinese food smells remarkably like ass.
03:49:58 <lament> i'm afraid you can have all of it
04:05:39 <psygnisfive> whos interested in a competition for who can come up with the best on-the-fly random trivia?
04:08:45 <lament> curse the ipod for not having a sound recorder
04:20:37 <pikhq> I'll also laugh at it.
04:20:52 <pikhq> And, for that matter, laugh at all MP3 players not running Rockbox. :p
04:22:17 <psygnisfive> because they sell microphones for your ipod to do just that
04:22:38 <psygnisfive> tho i dont know if they're actually using software on the ipod or not
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04:31:31 <lament> i don't think the ipod itself has any software for sound recording
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06:47:54 <GregorR> *whew*, almost blew the cover of the EVIL WALKING PENIS PEOPLE
06:49:53 <psygnisfive> ugh, i hate stupidity in science fiction :|
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07:53:44 <psygnisfive> so in stargate atlantis theyve constructed this string of stargates from one galaxy to another, right
07:53:59 <psygnisfive> and halfway across theres a station for security purposes
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07:54:24 <psygnisfive> but, instead of doing like they do in every other facility they build, they DONT build an iris over the gate
07:54:36 <psygnisfive> result? absolutely no ability to resist an incursion.
07:55:58 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, assume I don't know what stargate is :)
07:56:00 <fizzie> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iris_(Stargate)
07:56:15 <psygnisfive> its basically a thing that closes over the stargate to prevent things from coming through
07:56:25 <fizzie> It's mentioned in the "iris" disambiguation page.
07:56:42 <fizzie> Wikipedia: a big bag of trivia about TV series.
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09:16:57 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I have indeed never seen stargate
09:17:32 <psygnisfive> well if you say indeed enough people will think you have
09:19:00 <psygnisfive> one of the main characters, Teal'C, says "Indeed" quite a bit
09:19:08 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, how should I know?
09:19:17 <psygnisfive> it's a bit of a spock-ish "Fascinating, captain" trait
09:19:19 <ErkiDerLoony> Well there are more people saying indeed quite often.
09:19:28 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, ah yes I have seen some Star Trek though
09:21:04 <AnMaster> for example in the Discworld series, "Havelock Vetinari" tend to say indeed quite a bit
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09:53:42 <tusho> psygnisfive: NOMADICALLY
09:55:34 <tusho> NOMADS HAVE THREE FUNCTIONS
09:55:43 <tusho> TERURN :: M A -> A
09:56:10 <tusho> BIDN :: A -> (M A -> B) -> B
09:56:16 <tusho> FIAL :: STRING -> A
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10:49:42 * tusho writes a parser for a restricted subset of querying english
10:49:53 <tusho> rabbit's tails' lengths -> rabbit.tails.map(length)
10:50:08 <tusho> and then I can parse "x is y", "x has y" and build up a silly little knowledge databse
11:01:26 <tusho> "the length of the rabbit's tail is 5cm" -> (is (rabbit tail length) (5cm)) is kind of non-trivial...
11:02:22 <fizzie> Everything automatically becomes non-trivial when natural languages are involved.
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11:10:20 <tusho> fizzie: But of course.
11:10:31 <tusho> Still, "rabbit's tail" and "the length of the rabbit's tail" are trivial.
11:10:36 <tusho> It's those pesky assignments
11:22:10 <AnMaster> tusho, what about "x got y" ;P
11:22:21 <tusho> AnMaster: botte might automatically correct you for that
11:22:30 <tusho> say, kicks you from ESO each time you have it wrong
11:22:37 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway that wouldn't work
11:22:47 <AnMaster> because there have to be cases where got is correct
11:22:59 <AnMaster> tusho, which I would then make a point of using
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11:33:04 -!- tusho has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | <bsmntbombdood> lol tornado brb | ☃.
11:57:14 <AnMaster> what did they think when adding such a symbol
11:57:15 <tusho> ☃⚆ snowman with circle with dot
11:57:20 <tusho> AnMaster: it's in the misc. symbols section
11:57:26 <tusho> presumably signs used it
11:57:41 <AnMaster> they don't like that "a picture can say more than a thousand words"
11:57:50 <tusho> unicode has 'REVERSED ROTATED FLORAL HEART BULLET'
11:57:55 <AnMaster> so they prefer "an unicode char can say more than a thousands words"
11:58:04 <tusho> 'Comments: a binding signature mark'
11:58:06 <fizzie> Unicode is the fun. I like U+203d "INTERROBANG".
11:58:26 <tusho> who doesn't like the interoobang‽
11:58:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, well that is sane compared to some other stuff
11:58:44 <tusho> AnMaster: why not‽
11:58:53 <AnMaster> tusho, just because you like it
11:58:59 <AnMaster> can't share an opinion with you
11:59:01 <tusho> AnMaster: you're not seeing these are you‽
11:59:15 <fizzie> The out-of-BMP characters get very bizarre, too: U+1d337 "TETRAGRAM FOR VASTNESS OR WASTING".
11:59:21 <AnMaster> but in this font and at this size it looks like a blurry question mark
11:59:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, indeed, how does it look?
11:59:38 <tusho> AnMaster: out of BMP
11:59:41 <tusho> your font probably doesn't have it
12:00:16 <tusho> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1d337/index.htm for a better view
12:00:58 <tusho> it looks nothing like a chinese character, dude
12:01:04 <AnMaster> *sounds* like Chinese char too
12:01:15 <tusho> and it looks nothing like a chinese char
12:01:43 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language
12:01:45 <tusho> that's what chinese looks like
12:01:46 <fizzie> Well, it _is_ Chinese, in a sense.
12:01:53 <tusho> but it's a tetragram
12:01:56 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_Xuan_Jing
12:04:23 <AnMaster> An unicode character can say more than a thousand ASCII characters
12:04:31 <AnMaster> new version of "a picture can..."
12:04:51 <fizzie> They could replace the traffic STOP signs with the "tetragram for stoppage".
12:05:48 <fizzie> I guess the joke would be lost on most people.
12:08:35 <fizzie> stoppage: 1. Deduction from payments; a sum "stopped" or deducted from the pay of a soldier, workman, or servant. 1465 Paston Lett. II. 221, I told hym that..I wold pay hym his dewte without any stoppage.
12:09:11 <tusho> note the year - 1465
12:10:10 <tusho> amusingly reminds me of "womyn"
12:10:16 <tusho> and wold = would, etc.
12:10:51 <fizzie> They haven't been too carefull with the spelling. OED quotations for "duty" include deuyte (1297), duetee (1386), dewte (1440), dywtes (1476), dewtie (1573) and more.
12:11:02 <tusho> I see you haven't either :P
12:11:04 <fizzie> And I don't seem to be very care-full either, yes.
12:11:10 <tusho> AnMaster: oxford english dictionary
12:11:20 <tusho> let's start spelling it duti
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12:12:09 <AnMaster> tusho, I recently saw some unicode char like _ but at the top of the line
12:12:36 <tusho> use your ⌨ to type a ☃ using unicode technologies
12:13:41 <AnMaster> anyway... what about that under line thing
12:14:01 <tusho> AnMaster: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/index.htm
12:14:07 <tusho> and it's some unicode char
12:14:14 <tusho> it is literally "strong )" or something
12:14:32 <AnMaster> tusho, and yet they rejected Klingon?
12:14:40 <tusho> AnMaster: i didn't say there was no use
12:14:44 <tusho> I said I did not know what it was
12:14:55 <AnMaster> tusho, no but snowman char has no use IMO
12:15:13 <tusho> AnMaster: and obviously you personally know more about what characters are useful than the entire unicode consortium
12:16:02 <AnMaster> tusho, nop, but I don't think some of those are usefuk
12:16:15 <tusho> AnMaster: you can safely assume you're wrong
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12:17:08 <deveah> the International 1kb-of-code roguelike contest is awesome
12:18:12 <deveah> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.development/browse_thread/thread/ec8714cda9f0c8bc#
12:18:16 <tusho> i have a 20-line mud written in ruby somewhere around here
12:18:35 <deveah> if it's <=1kb, you should post it on usenet
12:19:03 <tusho> it's not a rougelike
12:19:05 <tusho> and I didn't write it
12:20:35 <tusho> p.s. I'd call that first one more like non-real-time pacman ;)
12:22:26 <deveah> btw, I made an esolang based on OISC, "^" - with a different instruction: Reverse-Substract-and-Jump-if-Negative
12:22:58 <AnMaster> deveah, what computational class?
12:23:27 <deveah> it only has one memory cell
12:23:33 <deveah> so it can't be Turing-complete
12:23:38 <deveah> if that's what you mean
12:24:10 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Computational_class
12:24:40 * tusho considers writing a little forth/factor-alike for writing silly things like fibonacci programs and tiny rougelike games like deveah's
12:25:24 <deveah> you should participate
12:26:23 <deveah> my game rules http://pastie.org/249060
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12:29:11 <deveah> because freebasic = basic + C++
12:30:07 <AnMaster> what the heck has C++ got to do with it?
12:30:27 <AnMaster> anyway C++ is a correct name, it is a post increment
12:30:38 <AnMaster> meaning... that it is no better than C
12:30:54 <AnMaster> if they meant it was better they should have called it ++C
12:30:54 <deveah> freebasic can include any C++ header file, it's the fastest BASIC ever
12:31:04 <tusho> AnMaster: your trolling is much appreciated
12:31:09 <tusho> unfortunately it's completely irrelevant
12:31:20 <deveah> because it's the only language I know
12:31:45 <tusho> AnMaster: no. trolling
12:33:10 <tusho> 0 1 [dup [+ printnl] dip swap] loop
12:33:22 <tusho> println = .n, I guess, it's common enough
12:33:32 <tusho> 0 1 [dup [+ .n] dip swap] loop
12:33:53 <AnMaster> some forth like language I think
12:34:01 <AnMaster> considering it is doing what seems to be stack operations
12:34:10 <AnMaster> I'm not very familiar with forth though
12:34:24 <tusho> a language i'm making yeah
12:34:48 <AnMaster> and heavily influenced by forth?
12:35:02 <AnMaster> but made for golfing? It seems rather compact
12:35:11 <tusho> heavily influenced by forth and factor
12:35:19 <tusho> not made for golfing, but made to be concise
12:35:21 <tusho> 0 .n 0 1 [dup [+ .n] dip swap] loop
12:35:24 <tusho> full fibonacci program
12:35:26 <AnMaster> tusho, not familiar with factor
12:35:27 <tusho> will output like this
12:35:38 <tusho> might call it spork
12:35:44 <tusho> AnMaster: anyway i'll lead you through that prog
12:35:50 <tusho> 0 .n 0 1 [dup [+ .n] dip swap] loop -> first we print out 0 and a nelwine
12:35:54 <AnMaster> tusho, it looks very interesting
12:35:59 <tusho> then we put 0 and 1 on the stack (let's call them a and b)
12:36:05 <tusho> then we put a lambda which we loop forever which does this:
12:36:13 <tusho> duplicates the top entry (-> a b b)
12:36:15 <deveah> or The Might Forkthor Masmerizer Language That's Actually Named Spork
12:36:38 <tusho> then "dips under" one element for a lambda: inside the lambda we have (a b), we add them together giving (c), then we output that and a newline
12:36:45 <tusho> we come out of the dip so it's now (c b)
12:36:50 <tusho> we swap that (b c)
12:36:54 <tusho> and then it goes to the next loop
12:37:01 <tusho> duplicates - (b c c), etc
12:37:19 <tusho> the equivalent python:
12:37:28 <tusho> you should be able to make out the c from that, presumably
12:37:36 <tusho> that python needs 'print 0' in front of it
12:37:44 <tusho> but yeah, very happy with that conciseness
12:37:55 <AnMaster> tusho, I'm unable to parse "a, b = b, a + b"
12:38:08 <tusho> AnMaster: it's "a = b, b = a + b"
12:38:13 <tusho> except in the b assignment, the a is the old a
12:38:17 <tusho> you can swap vars like this
12:38:34 <tusho> AnMaster: that is, in C, you'd have to use a temp var
12:38:43 <tusho> temp = a; a = b; b = tmp + b (b += tmp)
12:40:33 <tusho> AnMaster: here's a cat program
12:40:34 <tusho> >n [] [.n >n] while
12:40:56 <tusho> the first argument - the block that sets up the condition - does nothing, so it evaluates the truth-value of the top thing on the stack
12:41:03 <tusho> the body of the while outputs a line then reads in another one
12:41:09 <tusho> (>n returns false on EOF)
12:41:44 <tusho> a shorter version:
12:41:53 <tusho> looping through a file object goes through all the lines
12:45:21 * tusho thinks about function definitions
12:45:56 <tusho> AnMaster: oh shush you :D
12:46:30 <tusho> and here's a quine
12:47:13 <tusho> stdin reverse [.n] each
12:47:25 <tusho> for input a\nb\nc\n, outputs c\nb\na\n
12:48:52 <AnMaster> tusho, write a reverse char by char one please :D
12:49:06 <tusho> stdin chars reverse [.] each
12:49:20 <AnMaster> tusho, hey you make up the syntax to make it as short as possible
12:49:30 <tusho> the semantics are well-defined
12:49:36 <tusho> AnMaster: no, i don't want to
12:49:40 <AnMaster> tusho, where is chars and reverse defined
12:49:41 <tusho> but I can tell you how that works
12:49:59 <tusho> it has methods (which are really just functions specializing on the type of their arguments)
12:50:05 <tusho> {stdin} is an opaque data structure
12:50:11 <tusho> and, it implements all the list methods
12:50:13 <AnMaster> tusho, reverse pairs of chars: so abcdef becomes efcdab
12:50:23 <tusho> 'chars' just creates a "view" object on stdin
12:50:25 <tusho> which has the same FD
12:50:30 <tusho> but as a list, is of chars
12:50:45 <tusho> and that pair thing would require a bit of work
12:50:48 <tusho> I'll have to think about it
12:50:58 <AnMaster> tusho, yes, don't make up another method or view for it
12:51:20 <tusho> i won't, but it occurs to me that 'grouping' a certain number of elements in an array into sub-arrays is a really common operation
12:51:29 <tusho> i've seen it implemented as an extension to Array on ruby before
12:51:37 <tusho> stdin chars 2 group [.] each
12:51:42 <AnMaster> tusho, sure, but what about increasing size of groups?
12:51:42 <tusho> stdin chars 2 group reverse [.] each
12:51:49 <tusho> AnMaster: stdin chars 5 group reverse [.] each
12:52:15 <AnMaster> tusho, the groups should increase while the program runs, according to the fibbonaci sequence
12:52:27 <tusho> then you'll have to write your own group replacement
12:52:32 <tusho> and I haven't decided on an elegant implementation for group yet
12:52:46 <tusho> once I figure out an elegant way of implementing group
12:52:52 <AnMaster> tusho, I assume it is turing complete so you can do it I hope?
12:53:10 <AnMaster> tusho, where would these stuff be implemented?
12:53:26 <AnMaster> tusho, when will you write implementation?
12:57:09 <tusho> AnMaster: any other programs you'd like me to write? :P
12:57:29 <AnMaster> tusho, A ray tracer that renders to png?
12:57:45 <tusho> though with enough stdlib it could be possible
12:57:54 -!- deveah has left (?).
12:58:22 <AnMaster> tusho, oh yes core.3d.raytrace function, with the core.image.png view?
12:58:45 <tusho> understanding how 'stdin chars' works isn't that hard
12:58:57 <tusho> chars takes an IO object and makes its list methods work on characters instead of lines
12:59:30 <AnMaster> tusho, but no, can't think of any such programs now
12:59:37 <AnMaster> I'm sure I will come up with other ones later
13:00:16 <tusho> there should be a recursive patent
13:00:24 <tusho> METHOD FOR PATENTING THIS METHOD
13:00:39 <tusho> it'd cause its own prior art!
13:18:35 <tusho> UL[ *(online_users.map {|u| LI[A(:href => "/users/#{u.id}")[u.name]]} ]
13:18:44 <tusho> nifty little dom creation mini-lang
13:19:00 <tusho> TAGNAME[ child, child... ]
13:19:09 <tusho> TAGNAME(:attr => val, ...)[child, child...]
13:19:28 <tusho> hmm needs a ) before the ]
13:19:35 <tusho> UL[ *online_users.map {|u| LI[A(:href => "/users/#{u.id}")[u.name]]} ]
13:19:59 <tusho> the map is quite elegant, really - you're mapping the data directly on to the output html tree
13:20:09 <tusho> which is essentially what web apps are
13:36:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, your last ccbi segfaults for me
13:36:22 <AnMaster> no debug info so I can't provide a traceback
13:36:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, happens without -t too
13:36:35 <Deewiant> I'll see about it when I get home
13:37:26 <AnMaster> Enter cell value to break on: t
13:38:21 <Deewiant> t isn't a value, for starters, it has to be an integer
13:38:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you should mention that
13:38:45 <Deewiant> why do you think it says "value"
13:39:15 <Deewiant> 't' is a value only in C-family languages
13:39:37 <Deewiant> type error, got: Char, expected: Int
13:41:34 <AnMaster> Breakpoint 1 at 0x40ce83: file /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/interpreter.c, line 106.
13:42:26 <AnMaster> need to check if it is in string mode too
13:43:46 <AnMaster> break ExecuteInstruction if (opcode == $arg0 && ip->mode != 0x1)
13:44:38 <tusho> AnMaster: that is almost, almost ruby
14:00:32 <AnMaster> tusho, it is just a gdb macro for gods sake
14:03:09 <tusho> I have a line of CSS that is 217015 characters long. Quiz: What does it do?
14:05:05 -!- pikhq has joined.
14:07:09 <tusho> AnMaster: It starts with background: url("data:image/png,
14:07:36 <AnMaster> what is wrong with the normal way?
14:07:43 <tusho> AnMaster: this way is funny
14:07:52 <AnMaster> tusho, this way disabling images won't save any bw
14:08:24 <tusho> tons of webpages are over 200kb
14:08:27 <tusho> this one just happens to be really short
14:08:49 <tusho> AnMaster: its just one page
14:09:31 <tusho> AnMaster: if I get complaints I'll change it
14:09:59 <tusho> also it guarantees to break IE
14:10:09 <AnMaster> Tick: 75466 --- Index/IPs: 1/2 --- ID: 1 --- Stacks: 1 --- Mode:
14:10:14 <tusho> and old versions of opera too
14:10:24 <AnMaster> well I guess a binary search on the tick id is the way to go now
14:10:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is there any way to make the CCBI debugger break on a specific tick?
14:12:17 <tusho> funge extension idea
14:12:21 <tusho> it lets you search fungespace
14:12:31 <tusho> e.g. if you had "test", you could pass "test" to GOOG and it'd give you the co-ords
14:12:35 <tusho> and stuff like that
14:12:42 <tusho> (list of all co-ords its at)
14:12:59 <tusho> google's stock symbol
14:13:00 <AnMaster> tusho, well you need to write up proper specs
14:13:55 <tusho> 're listed as on the stock exchange
14:13:59 <tusho> google's is GOOG, sun's is JAVA
14:14:32 <AnMaster> why not just use google or sun or microsoft or whatever
14:16:44 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:22:58 <tusho> AnMaster: it's ancient
14:23:20 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticker_symbol
14:28:18 <pikhq> Because the finance world is run by old crufty COBOL code.
14:28:34 -!- ErkiDerLoony has left (?).
14:28:36 <tusho> It amuses me the symbols some use.
14:28:44 <tusho> It's like domains, but there's more available.
14:28:54 <tusho> And you can't use more than 4 letters.
14:29:06 <tusho> Formerly, a glance at a U.S. stock symbol and its appended codes would allow an investor to determine where a stock trades; however in July 2007, the SEC approved a plan to allow companies moving from the New York Stock Exchange to the Nasdaq to retain their three letter symbols. When first implemented, the change did not apply to companies with one or two letter symbols,[2] but subsequently any stock was able to move from the NYSE to the Nasdaq without chan
14:29:09 <pikhq> It amuses me to look at SCOXQ's stock prices.
14:29:14 <tusho> OUR PRECIOUS ONE-TO-THREE-LETTER SYMBOLS
14:30:15 <pikhq> Sorry; that's SCOXQ.PK
14:32:01 <tusho> AnMaster: {.PK - A Pink Sheet, indicating over-the-counter}
14:32:18 <pikhq> And {Q - in bankruptcy}. ;)
14:32:49 <pikhq> They filed chapter 11 a year ago...
14:33:02 <pikhq> I'm surprised the bankruptcy court hasn't tried to push that into chapter 7.
14:33:06 <tusho> SCO must be run by some real fucked up people if they think all of this is still a good idea.
14:39:11 <tusho> AnMaster: please, before demonstrating abject ignorance about the topic we're discussing, google it
14:50:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I checked the tick count difference in ccbi at the beginning and ending of "a b", and I also checked the same difference in cfunge, result: same difference (5)
14:50:07 <AnMaster> so why does mycology claim that is bad
14:52:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is the tick count difference between start of t and end of thread testing always the same when it is all "good"?
14:52:28 <Deewiant> the IPs are probably desynced somehow: as to why, I do not know
14:52:47 <Deewiant> they do not ask y for the tick count or anything like that
14:53:12 <Deewiant> that would be the reason then :-P
14:53:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I try a binary search to see when the difference between first t and some point to find where it first differs with tick/location
14:54:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so in the ccbi debugger, what is the command to break after a certain number or ticks?
14:54:38 <Deewiant> have you tried looking at the help
14:55:43 <Deewiant> de(l)ay -- Set the tick until which to delay
14:55:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is that absolute or relative current?
14:56:10 <Deewiant> absolute or otherwise it would be "Set the number of ticks to delay for"
14:57:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, have you seen Riley's new fingerprints?
14:58:00 <AnMaster> EMEM, LONG, EXEC, REXP, MSGQ, STCK, SMEM, SMPH, TRGR
14:58:16 <AnMaster> http://www.elf-emulation.com/funge/rcfunge_manual.html
14:58:29 <AnMaster> SMPH seems to be interface to POSIX semaphores
14:59:47 <Deewiant> bunch of Unix-only stuff I see
15:00:44 <tusho> stupid firefox doesn't have colour adjustment profiles enabled by default
15:00:52 <Deewiant> and bunch of stuff that looks like it would be a pain to implement :-P
15:00:52 <tusho> so my photoshop-made image is brighter than the background it fades in to
15:00:55 <tusho> and I don't know how to fix that
15:01:05 <tusho> i can't seem to make photoshop save the image _as it appears now_
15:01:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you mean STCK and LONG and EXEC?
15:01:10 <tusho> without a colour profile
15:01:37 <AnMaster> tusho, try saving it to a file format lacking support for profiles?
15:01:48 <tusho> AnMaster: it'll just save it as the brighter version
15:02:01 <tusho> i want the darker one
15:02:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: MACR and EXEC at least
15:02:05 <tusho> (the one photoshop & safari show)
15:02:08 <tusho> (with colour profiles)
15:02:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well MACR would be a pain yes
15:02:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, are you going to write test suites for them?
15:02:39 <Deewiant> my mini-funge is such a hack that I couldn't do MACR easily
15:02:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: only if I implement them
15:03:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I will probably implement LONG, and maybe EXEC
15:03:19 <Deewiant> STCK and SETS and EMEM should be easy
15:03:31 <AnMaster> STCK would be a pain with my stack system
15:03:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, even FRTH is currently a pain
15:03:40 <Deewiant> still need to add 'D' to FILE...
15:03:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well that makes no sense
15:04:05 <Deewiant> makes sense as it seems like an obvious omission
15:04:08 <AnMaster> fingerprints are fixed when they are done
15:04:16 <Deewiant> and since we're the only implementers I figured it's fine
15:04:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I told him to not go crazy with messing with earlier fingerprints and he said this was all he was thinking of changing so far
15:04:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh well, but that seems like it could cause issues
15:05:08 <Deewiant> and like said, I figure it belongs and since we're the only implementers it's OK
15:05:32 <tusho> AnMaster: yours is just a hyper-optimized port of ccbi to c
15:05:53 <Deewiant> as in, people in this channel who can easily be poked to change their code :-P
15:06:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, will you add a mycology test for it?
15:07:10 <Deewiant> and I'll use it to remove the mycotmp files
15:07:27 <Deewiant> so you finally don't have to remove them manually any more :-P
15:08:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: btw, http://www.rcfunge98.com/ works too
15:09:09 <Deewiant> and oh yeah, FING is probably doable as well
15:09:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, EMEM would be doable
15:09:36 <AnMaster> but I don't think I like it very much
15:09:39 <Deewiant> yeah, I think I said so already
15:09:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and well FING I could easily do
15:09:57 <Deewiant> you already have an infinite funge-space
15:09:58 <tusho> shouldn't it be rcfunge98.org
15:10:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oooh but it can't be used for posix shared memory can it? ;P
15:10:36 <Deewiant> I'm not going to respond to either of those >_<
15:10:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it was a parody
15:10:52 <AnMaster> I think those are silly reasons
15:11:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, would the D be equal to unlink()
15:12:00 <Deewiant> Dewi: (0gnirts -- )Delete specified file
15:12:06 <AnMaster> remove() deletes a name from the file system. It calls unlink(2) for files, and rmdir(2) for directories.
15:12:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I assume you use some irc client that is console based
15:12:40 <Deewiant> certainly doesn't delete directories
15:12:48 <AnMaster> as GUI ones would see pasted tab differently
15:13:07 <Deewiant> not if they're not implemented to see the difference :-P
15:13:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, of course it doesn't delete the file, it unlinks the file, which may still leave the file around if there are other hardlinks
15:13:53 <tusho> Deewiant: yea they would
15:14:03 <tusho> tab = {KEYPRESS,\t}
15:14:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and of course one can't truly delete the file
15:14:10 <tusho> paste tab = {ADDCHAR,inputbox,\t}
15:14:23 <Deewiant> tusho: yes, but like said, if they're implemented to treat those the same way...
15:14:30 <Deewiant> which would be stupid, of course
15:14:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed not overwrite
15:14:32 <tusho> they wouldn't, though
15:14:36 <tusho> they'd have to explicitly duplicate the behaviour
15:14:48 <tusho> and well technically you could do just about anything
15:14:55 <tusho> but "⌘ undecided.domain
15:14:55 <tusho> Introductions are a lot of fun, some crap, crapidoodle... mmm, crapidoodle. Introductions are a lot of fun, some crap, crapidoodle... mmm, crapidoodle. Introductions are a lot of fun, some crap, crapidoodle... mmm, crapidoodle. Introductions are a lot of fun, some crap, crapidoodle... mmm, crapidoodle. Introductions are a lot of fun, some crap, crapidoodle... mmm, crapidoodle.
15:15:01 <tusho> I guess here is when I link to some crap about me and maybe info about this site. I don't know, this is placeholder. Blah blah blah de blah blah."
15:15:15 <Deewiant> tusho: more likely they'd do something like move KEYPRESSes and ADDCHARs to a common handler
15:15:21 <tusho> AnMaster: plz be to the reading: [[stupid pasting]]
15:15:36 -!- Deewiant has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | <bsmntbombdood> lol tornado brb | ☃ | mmm, crapidoodle..
15:15:37 <tusho> Deewiant: that would be monumentally ridiculous
15:16:01 <Deewiant> tusho: not monumentally, but somewhat, yes. :-)
15:17:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: btw, that segfault was a regression introduced in the last version and was a one-liner fix :-)
15:18:01 <AnMaster> have <uri> refer to the last and <uri>-1.2.3 and such
15:18:06 <tusho> Deewiant: i take it you don't like test internal suites :P
15:18:13 <tusho> just use a seperate uri
15:18:18 <tusho> http://foo.org/trds/1.0
15:18:19 <tusho> http://foo.org/trds/1.1
15:18:23 <AnMaster> tusho, it would be up to the fingerprint writer of course
15:18:36 <tusho> but you don't have to do anything special
15:18:39 <AnMaster> he could say that http://foo.org/trds would point to the last? or couldn't he?
15:19:00 <tusho> AnMaster: well, that'd just be making the http://foo.org/trds fingerprint load http://foo.org/trds/version
15:19:11 <Deewiant> tusho: compiling this on linux is just enough of a pain due to my lack of my own linux computer that I usually can't be bothered to test it on linux
15:19:18 <tusho> ah it was a linux bug
15:19:34 <AnMaster> tusho, rather a bug in CCBI's code for linux I assume
15:19:37 <Deewiant> well, the bug affects everything
15:19:45 <Deewiant> the segfault only happened on linux though :-P
15:20:15 <Deewiant> a 'delete' was no longer valid after a change I made in 1.0.11
15:20:45 <AnMaster> which caused a memory corruption before you removed it?
15:21:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, suggestion: use tools like valgrind :D
15:21:18 <tusho> valgrind doesn't work on d
15:21:24 <Deewiant> what I think is that on windows, the return value of a tango call is allocated by 'new', but on linux it isn't
15:21:37 <Deewiant> or, on windows, deleting something random is simply ignored
15:22:04 <Deewiant> valgrind can be made to work on D, at least
15:22:40 <AnMaster> valgrind is a very useful tool
15:22:41 <Deewiant> since all DMD-generated executables fail valgrind in some places
15:22:51 <tusho> cue "DMD IS EVIL REWRITE IT"
15:23:04 <Deewiant> and it's quite possible that the GC does tricks valgrind doesn't like
15:23:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed, or the reverse
15:23:39 <Deewiant> and in any case, changing my code can not possibly fix valgrind errors
15:23:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for example when I compile cfunge with boehm-gc and then run it under valgrind, cfunge will segfault
15:23:51 <Deewiant> since it's all through the GC which comes from the stdlib
15:24:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can't you deselect GC?
15:24:34 <Deewiant> I could use tango without a GC, sure
15:24:38 <Deewiant> but that would be monumentally stupid
15:24:49 <Deewiant> because I don't delete even close to all of what I allocate
15:26:44 <AnMaster> cfunge does in debug build, but it doesn't free everything allocated at startup in release build
15:27:03 <Deewiant> yes, because freeing memory is sooo slow :-P
15:27:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nah, but it does slow down a bit indeed. but that isn't the reason
15:27:32 <tusho> Deewiant: it takes a positive number of miliseconds!
15:27:33 <AnMaster> freeing like 20 000 separate mallocs() are slow
15:27:47 <Deewiant> yeah, at least 20 milliseconds
15:28:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway my FILE now does D
15:28:05 <tusho> *sigh* he just doesn't get me and my speed...
15:28:10 <tusho> why does nobody understand me?
15:28:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, tell me when mycology does it too
15:29:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway EMEM will be painful, you need to index the entries if you will ever target 64-bit platforms
15:30:24 <AnMaster> well except you can free stuff too
15:31:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway another issue, LONG for 64-bit funges won't be very fun
15:31:21 <AnMaster> __int_128 and such aren't portable
15:31:28 <AnMaster> so I will have to do it on my own
15:31:46 <Deewiant> or you can just be non-portable
15:32:01 <Deewiant> and say LONG is only available for compilers which implement 128-bit integers
15:32:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I am not now, I plan to support non-GCC in the future too
15:32:26 -!- tusho has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | mmm, crapidoodle. | ☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃.
15:32:30 <AnMaster> as long as it is C99 and proper POSIX I can run it
15:33:03 <AnMaster> which all POSIX I know of implement anyway
15:33:17 <AnMaster> (and I really don't give a fuck about cygwin)
15:34:00 <tusho> AnMaster: You realise that you care about things that 0.0000000000000000000000000000001% of people use, but not things that ~90% of people use.
15:34:17 <AnMaster> tusho, more than 0.0000000000000000000000000000001% use linux
15:34:26 <AnMaster> and in the eso lang community, much more
15:34:29 <Deewiant> and more than that use windows
15:34:35 <tusho> AnMaster: I am talking about ObscuroUnix2000.
15:34:37 <tusho> It doesn't run gcc.
15:34:45 <tusho> It only supports perfect POSIX and has a C99 compiler.
15:34:54 <tusho> And you are being a fine, upstanding citizen and supporting them! Good on you.
15:35:00 <tusho> However, you're annoying 90-fucking-%
15:35:37 <AnMaster> tusho, POSIX is an international standard, so is C99
15:35:49 <tusho> Shut the hell up about your goddamn international standards.
15:35:54 <tusho> SOME OBSCURE SYSTEM - 0%
15:36:00 <tusho> You care more about the former
15:36:02 <tusho> and it is utterly stupid
15:36:25 <AnMaster> "The family of POSIX standards is formally designated as IEEE 1003 and the international standard name is ISO/IEC 9945. The standards emerged from a project that began near 1985. Formerly known as IEEE-IX, the term POSIX was suggested by Richard Stallman in response to an IEEE request for a memorable name.[2]"
15:36:36 <AnMaster> tusho, also I suppose it will work on OS X
15:36:42 <AnMaster> but I don't have any OS X to try on
15:36:56 <tusho> THE FACT REMAINS: You are ignoring 90% and concentrating on 0% instead.
15:37:01 <tusho> This is a waste of time and effort.
15:37:05 <AnMaster> which are the only systems I have
15:37:18 <AnMaster> tusho, I don't have windows, so how could I test it?
15:37:28 <tusho> navaburo: SomeObscureUnix is not 10%.
15:37:32 <tusho> The 10% is heavily fragmented.
15:37:38 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway I care about Linux and such
15:37:51 <navaburo> posix is what binds them togeather
15:37:52 <tusho> Linux is less than OS X.
15:37:55 <AnMaster> tusho, at least i don't make it RiscOS or whatever only!
15:38:04 <AnMaster> which is what !Befunge almost did
15:38:21 <AnMaster> navaburo, so this means all those 10%
15:38:21 <Deewiant> except that !Befunge runs on windows fairly fine
15:38:22 <tusho> You should still concentrate on Windows instead of a mythical system that you don't even have to test on.
15:38:35 <AnMaster> cfunge - Bringing Befunge-98 to the minority!
15:38:46 <tusho> AnMaster: ccbi already works on linux, pop
15:38:49 <tusho> and I imagine OS X too
15:39:16 <AnMaster> tusho, I DON'T HAVE WINDOWS SO HOW THE FUCK COULD I TEST ON IT!?
15:39:36 <tusho> and possibly make Deewiant even more your slave
15:39:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, gcc cross compile to wine?
15:39:41 <tusho> i hear he has a windows installation.
15:39:59 <Deewiant> you do realize that the whole goal of wine is that you can test on it and then your stuff will run on windows
15:40:04 <navaburo> Deewiant, a few years ago people would have laughed at that. Amazing how wine has come along isnt it?
15:40:16 <Deewiant> and if GCC doesn't cross compile to wine, you can get VC or whatever.
15:40:23 <tusho> you just use mingw
15:40:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nop, because VC doesn't do C99
15:40:38 <Deewiant> navaburo: oh? I would have said that even a few years ago. But then, I've never used wine. :-)
15:40:48 <tusho> and you can compile mingw on linux
15:40:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: MinGW, DMC, others...
15:40:55 * navaburo finds it hilarious that there is a standards debate going on in #esoteric
15:40:55 <AnMaster> tusho, and yes, quite a few parts work under mingw
15:40:56 <tusho> and use it to compile for windows
15:40:59 <Deewiant> there is more than one C compiler for windows
15:41:00 <tusho> and then run it under wine
15:41:03 <tusho> AnMaster: THAT is how you test on windows.
15:41:08 <AnMaster> when I did have access to windows
15:41:16 <tusho> you do have access to windows
15:41:20 <tusho> we just told you exactly how
15:41:30 <tusho> mingw cross compiler + wine
15:41:30 <Deewiant> navaburo: oh, tusho and AnMaster do stuff like this all the time. :-)
15:41:41 <tusho> AnMaster: and why not
15:41:45 <tusho> this is its whole purpose
15:41:50 <AnMaster> I had temp access to a computer with win xp, mingw and msys
15:41:57 <tusho> but you still have windows
15:41:59 <tusho> in the form of mingw+wine
15:42:18 <AnMaster> but I can't be arsed to set it up
15:42:18 <tusho> aka "no, because."
15:42:27 <AnMaster> give windows environ and mmap()
15:42:28 <tusho> oh, i like that one
15:42:40 <tusho> "EXCUSE!" "Trivial solution to the excuse." ":( CBA"
15:43:18 <AnMaster> no way I will ever use that in cfunge
15:43:20 <tusho> you'd hardly need to use it
15:43:22 <Deewiant> there are these things called libraries
15:43:27 <Deewiant> which do this thing called abstraction
15:43:32 <AnMaster> tusho, how do you get environment variables then?
15:43:35 <Deewiant> which implies this thing called portability
15:43:40 <tusho> AnMaster: it has getenv, does it now?
15:43:45 <tusho> if not, what Deewiant said
15:44:27 <AnMaster> tusho, maybe, I just used extern char ** environ;
15:44:32 <Deewiant> tusho: doesn't suffice even if it does since it doesn't have putenv (or setenv, I can't remember which is only POSIX)
15:44:55 <AnMaster> tusho, valid POSIX, but I guess I will have to mess up the code and use a more complex solution
15:44:55 <tusho> Deewiant: does AnMaster do that?
15:45:12 <AnMaster> tusho, I would if I implement EVAR at some time
15:45:17 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, you can't just abide to standards and expect it to magically work on everything
15:45:26 <AnMaster> http://www.elf-emulation.com/funge/rcfunge_manual.html#EVAR
15:45:37 <tusho> AnMaster: so it's one #ifdef WINDOWS
15:45:44 <tusho> and like 3 lines of gnarly windows api call
15:45:47 <AnMaster> static const char * environ[] = {
15:45:47 <AnMaster> "SUPPORTS=not environ at least, get a sane system if you want this to work.",
15:45:47 <AnMaster> "REALLY=we mean it, cfunge on windows is NOT SUPPORTED."
15:46:17 <tusho> #error HAHAHAHAHHAHA
15:46:59 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway there are couple of fingerprints that need fork() and such, and really, I got no clue how to set up pipes and such to talk to perl on windows...
15:47:13 <AnMaster> win32 api is not something I intend to learn
15:47:19 <tusho> use a goddamn library
15:47:26 <tusho> besides, it's not learning the win32 api
15:47:31 <tusho> it's learning like THREE FUNCTIONS
15:47:44 <AnMaster> tusho, point me to such a library
15:48:26 <tusho> it might even take 60 seconds
15:48:37 * AnMaster goes back debugging threading issue
15:49:46 * navaburo has been playing with finite brainfuck, quite joyfully
15:49:53 -!- dogface_ has joined.
15:50:40 <navaburo> brainfuck with a very small memory
15:50:50 <tusho> navaburo: are you new here? :)
15:50:55 <AnMaster> navaburo, ah, so a limited interpreter basically?
15:51:13 <AnMaster> well no implementation is of course
15:51:26 <dogface_> I should come up with a complete set of rewrite rules for BF.
15:51:26 <navaburo> right, so why make it seem Turing-complete?
15:51:40 <navaburo> why not just cut to the chase and use 3 cells of memory?
15:51:48 <tusho> navaburo: 'cause then you can't do a mandelbrot
15:52:10 <tusho> navaburo: Of course, if they're bignums, then you can just use 2.
15:52:15 <navaburo> tusho, you can do anything supposing your cells can hold sufficiently large numbers
15:52:16 <tusho> And it's memory-bound once more.
15:52:22 <tusho> navaburo: that's still making it seem TC
15:52:23 <navaburo> tusho, mmm, i think you need 3 cells
15:52:26 <dogface_> No real-world implementation of anything is Turing-complete. Still, computer programmers love pretending things are.
15:52:31 <tusho> you can't have infinitely-sized numbers, navaburo
15:52:35 <tusho> it's the same problem as infinite memory cells
15:52:48 <navaburo> just sufficiently large for your application
15:52:55 <oklopol> dogface_: what do you mean?
15:53:01 <tusho> navaburo: then why not just have as many cells as you need for your app
15:53:10 <oklopol> find the normal form for a bf program? :)
15:53:11 <navaburo> because it is more esoteric this way
15:53:51 <tusho> navaburo: not really
15:53:55 <tusho> it's just more difficult
15:54:48 <navaburo> i guess it is a matter of taste. but more importantly, i was concerned with the minimum space complexity for an algorithm in finite bf, and i think it's 3.
15:54:52 <dogface_> oklopol: what do I mean by BF rewrite rules?
15:55:58 <tusho> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_machine
15:56:01 <dogface_> A couple Thue-style rules to transform any BF program into any other with the same I/O behavior, considering halting to be a form of output.
15:56:16 <AnMaster> does anyone know where I could find info on how you do arithmetics on a number larger than the size the compiler supports?
15:56:35 <tusho> AnMaster: look up on how cpus do addition
15:56:40 <tusho> then just do that on a struct with multiple ints
15:57:00 <tusho> navaburo: 2-cell BF with bignums = TC
15:57:17 <dogface_> Did AnMaster say e wanted bounded?
15:57:24 <tusho> dogface_: I know what he's doing it for.
15:57:25 <AnMaster> dogface_, I need exactly twice the size of int32_t or int64_t depending on implementation
15:57:32 <AnMaster> dogface_, and tusho knows what I want it for
15:57:39 <AnMaster> "long integers are 2 cell integers, if the interpreter's cell size is 32, then long integers are 64-bits."
15:57:40 <oklopol> dogface_: and by complete you mean that two programs identical in behavior would become the same resulting program, which would be in its normal form?
15:57:45 <AnMaster> well that is easy, but I got 64-bit cells
15:57:57 <AnMaster> which I need to emulate somehow
15:58:09 <AnMaster> dogface_, also you are a nomic player I assume?
15:58:20 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what's "long long" with 64-bit
15:58:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is 64-bit sitll
15:58:38 <tusho> dogface_: you should join ##nomic
15:58:52 <AnMaster> dogface_, I stoppped playing nomics some time ago
15:59:00 <oklopol> dogface_: you should answer me!
15:59:09 <tusho> (AnMaster's only nomic was ircnomic, which I founded with ais523 and ihope)
15:59:11 <AnMaster> dogface_, I need to figure out how do do maths on 128-bit signed integers
15:59:23 <oklopol> AnMaster: what's hard about that?
15:59:35 <AnMaster> oklopol, I got no clue how to do it
15:59:37 <dogface_> oklopol: well, they'd be nondeterministic and all, so they wouldn't be able to produce a normal form on ordinary computers, of course.
15:59:48 <oklopol> AnMaster: do you know how to calculate 253*5642
15:59:58 <AnMaster> oklopol, by hand on paper sure
16:00:23 <oklopol> AnMaster: do that on-paper version, and generalize base, then?
16:00:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, hrrm, seems suboptimal, I found some routines in freebsd kernel for doing it
16:00:53 <AnMaster> maybe I can adapt (read: steal) those
16:01:18 <dogface_> Good luck being faster than the paper methods without using fast Fourier transforms.
16:01:35 <dogface_> And with only two integers, I highly doubt the FFTs will get you anywhere.
16:01:48 <oklopol> dogface_: not faster asymptotically, just faster
16:02:34 <AnMaster> dogface_, I just want to do +-*/%, bitshift and conversion from/to ascii
16:02:44 <AnMaster> http://www.elf-emulation.com/funge/rcfunge_manual.html#LONG
16:02:55 <oklopol> AnMaster: you can hardcode all carries
16:03:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, what sucks is knowning that x86 puts the carry if any in the carry flag in the rFLAGS register
16:03:26 <AnMaster> and there is no way to get at it from C ;P
16:03:49 <dogface_> Hope that the compiler is smart.
16:03:54 <navaburo> tusho, does the proof of 2-cell BF with bignums = TC use Minsky machines?
16:04:03 <tusho> it is a minsky machine
16:04:12 <tusho> it's pretty trivial
16:04:16 <AnMaster> dogface_, not that smart that it can figure it out from a struct of two integers
16:04:50 <dogface_> A smarter compiler is needed, then. :-P
16:05:18 <oklopol> i'm gonna go buy something fun ->
16:07:44 <tusho> dogface_: You are ihope.
16:09:45 <AnMaster> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/src/sys/libkern/Attic/subdi3.c?rev=1.6;content-type=text%2Fplain
16:10:23 <AnMaster> that gives me the general idea of how to do it at least
16:10:45 <dogface_> tusho: I'm glad you noticed, because otherwise, you wouldn't have been able to notify me that you were going to start work on the proposal system for Normish. :-P
16:11:15 <dogface_> I do have a set of ideas I call "Not the Tallest of Orders". I may implement them.
16:11:52 <tusho> Shaddap dogface_, Normish will be like 5 years of thinking and then like 2 seconds of implementing enlightenment itself
16:13:11 <AnMaster> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/src/sys/libkern/quad.h?rev=1.19;content-type=text%2Fplain
16:15:48 <tusho> played on a linux box
16:16:23 <tusho> people submit proposals as scripts
16:16:26 <tusho> if they're accepted
16:16:28 <tusho> they're run as root
16:16:33 <tusho> simple as. except the current proposal system sux0r
16:16:38 <tusho> and i'm going to write the successor
16:16:47 <tusho> just been busy with other stuffs
16:17:27 <AnMaster> tusho, and the goal is to get root powers?
16:17:31 <dogface_> tusho: as punishment for taking so ling, I've devised a very complicated new proposal and player system. :-P
16:17:37 <tusho> nomics don't have goals, AnMaster
16:17:46 <tusho> dogface_: oh shush you, I've been really busy
16:17:53 <AnMaster> tusho, reaching a certain number of points?
16:18:01 <dogface_> The goal is to have fun. If you do bad things with root powers, you get... disliked.
16:18:02 <tusho> AnMaster: no purpose by default!
16:18:16 <AnMaster> tusho, but this specific normish then?
16:18:27 <tusho> AnMaster: NO DEFINED PURPOSE
16:18:29 <tusho> IT'S ADDED BY PROPOSAL
16:18:31 <tusho> OR NOT ADDED AT ALL!
16:18:36 <tusho> same with ircnomic
16:18:41 <tusho> heck agora has no goal
16:18:42 <AnMaster> tusho, so no such proposal have been made?
16:18:47 <tusho> AnMaster: it isn't up yet
16:18:53 <tusho> I mean, it is, but the proposal system sucks
16:18:58 <tusho> and as far as I know it doesn't have much activity
16:19:03 <tusho> since everyone's waiting for my proposal system
16:19:22 <dogface_> If it has any activity... well, I think it's had no activity for at least a week.
16:19:34 <dogface_> Sgeo, ais523 and Norgg would have to collaborate to make something happen.
16:19:43 <tusho> Or I could implement it
16:19:48 <tusho> And it'd magically gain all the activity :P
16:19:52 <tusho> (ok this injoke is silly :D)
16:20:00 <dogface_> AnMaster, help me (or tusho) with my ideas. :-P
16:20:05 <tusho> But srsly. I've almost finished stuff.
16:20:05 <dogface_> I should tell you what they are.
16:20:08 <tusho> Proposal system: soon.
16:20:11 <tusho> And yes, but in ##nomic
16:20:49 <dogface_> AnMaster: to ##nomic with ye. :-)
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17:01:45 -!- Tritonio_ has joined.
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17:36:19 <pikhq> To ###nomic with ye.
17:47:30 -!- lament has joined.
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18:12:36 <tusho> pikhq: Oh, you were talking about the double-hash.
18:12:52 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: kind of an ironic thing to say in here huh
18:13:03 <tusho> Deewiant: channel names
18:13:14 <Deewiant> tusho: so what's the difference between # and ##
18:13:16 <tusho> since we don't own nomic, we have to have ##nomic (pronounced "about nomic")
18:13:25 <tusho> wordpress can have #wordpress beacuse it's official
18:13:28 <tusho> but it's ##windows
18:14:14 <lament> We do, on the other hand, own Esoteric.
18:14:17 -!- atrapado has joined.
18:20:47 <tusho> apart from the fact that nothing matters
18:20:58 <tusho> (apart from the fact that nothing matters (apart from the fact that nothing matters (apart from the fact that nothing matters (apart from the fact that nothing matters (apart from the fact that nothing matters ...
18:33:37 <dogface_> Every nickname is a religion, you know. "Sgeo" says we should worship the Earth, "ihope" says we should worship Apple, "ais523" says we should worship 523.
18:34:06 <tusho> dogface_: And tusho?
18:34:27 <dogface_> "tusho" says that we cannot assume anything is true unless we've seen it with our own eyes.
18:34:30 <Sgeo> Actually, "Sgeo" says we should worship geometry or something. Apparently Sgeo stands for Sacred Geometry
18:34:43 <tusho> No, it stands for Sir Gay, Oh!
18:34:51 <dogface_> Oh, I thought the "geo" meant Earth.
18:35:12 <dogface_> Well, doesn't "geometry" literally mean "measuring the Earth" or something?
18:35:32 <Sgeo> http://www.charlesgilchrist.com/SGEO/index.html
18:38:31 <dogface_> "oklopol"... hmm, that's a tricky one, as it's in some other language, I believe.
18:38:50 <tusho> dogface_: actually it's meaningless
18:38:55 <dogface_> If my knowledge of Proto-Germanic is correct, that nick contains many indications that we should worship the government.
18:39:13 <tusho> seems a bit incorrect for oklopol
18:39:23 <oklopol> i don't believe in governments
18:39:23 <dogface_> Well, what do you think "pol" means?
18:39:35 <tusho> oklopol: in the literal sense as you don't believe they exist?
18:39:40 <dogface_> You see it in words like "police" and "politics".
18:39:40 <tusho> or in the "we don't need one" sense
18:39:43 <tusho> i hope it's the former
18:39:45 <oklopol> i refuse to admit any such beliefs
18:40:00 -!- dogface_ has changed nick to dogfreud_.
18:40:01 <lament> oklopol sounds mesoamerican to me
18:40:46 <oklopol> tusho: the former was definitely what i meant
18:40:52 <dogfreud_> Ah, you do not THINK you believe in governments. I know from experience with a patient of mine that the names we adopt ALWAYS reveal our true beliefs.
18:41:30 -!- dogfreud_ has changed nick to dogface_.
18:41:44 <tusho> dogface_: what about bsmntbombdood
18:42:21 <dogface_> He practices hate and extremism. And stereotype.
18:42:31 <tusho> dogface_: "lament" is about lamenting, presumably?
18:43:05 <dogface_> It's actually mutated Spanish for "the mind".
18:43:24 <Deewiant> how do you get "atheism" out of "dogface"
18:43:52 <tusho> actually dogface is an insult at bush
18:43:56 <dogface_> So clearly, lament's belief is that the universe exists only in our minds.
18:43:58 <tusho> though generally he's compared to a monkey
18:44:05 <tusho> dogface_: Pantheism?
18:44:10 <tusho> urgh, I always mix up terms
18:44:12 <dogface_> Neither "dogface" nor "monkeyface" contains a "w".
18:44:22 <tusho> dogface_: Oh, of course. dog/god.
18:44:22 <dogface_> Seems like "pantheism" would mean "everything is God".
18:44:35 <tusho> A pantheistic ... thing view would be funny/
18:44:35 <lament> you got it backwards, dogface_
18:44:42 <lament> i believe that our minds only exist in the universe
18:44:46 <tusho> The universe only exists in my head, but it's everyone's head.
18:44:57 <dogface_> Don't make me /nick dogfreud_ again.
18:45:34 <tusho> dogface_: You need to be dogfreud_ to say that
18:45:41 <dogface_> Quiet, tusho, there are 12-year-olds in here.
18:46:06 <dogface_> The nick "Deewiant" is obvious, if you take of the "ant" and treat "Deewi" as a verb.
18:46:30 <tusho> So it's an ant that has a lot of dew on it.
18:46:44 <dogface_> The "ant" just indicates that it's a verb.
18:46:49 <tusho> Deewiant: He has a lot of dew on himself.
18:47:03 <dogface_> The "Dee" is the prefix "de-", and given "wi", I think Deewiant is an advocate of celibacy.
18:48:19 <dogface_> Who was it that thought it would be cruel to bring children into the world because the world would end soon?
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18:53:48 * oerjan thought his client was broken there for a moment.
18:54:09 <tusho> what does it show as for you
18:54:52 <oerjan> XC lots of times, the last two inverted
18:55:22 <dogface_> The nick "oerjan" says we are living in a false vacuum which could be broken by human experiments at any moment.
18:56:04 <oerjan> the human experiments part, that is
18:56:22 <Deewiant> I got a bunch of XCs when tusho set the topic, but not in the topic itself
18:56:37 <Mony> hey dogface_, do u guess the personality of a person using his nick ? :p
18:56:52 <dogface_> Mony: no, I'm interpreting people's nicks as religions.
18:57:07 <Mony> and, with my nick ?
18:57:21 <dogface_> Your nick says that there is one God, and that that God is the number 0.
18:57:21 <tusho> Mony: Yours is the religion of devotion to money.
18:57:26 <tusho> Oh, I prefer dogface_'s.
18:57:31 <tusho> Is God's name "vab"?
18:57:55 -!- Mony has changed nick to M0ny.
18:58:08 -!- Deewiant has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 1337 powa.
18:58:31 <oerjan> finally an accurate topic
19:00:03 <oerjan> dogface_'s nick is more the animist spirit type, i think, believing obviously in a dog totem
19:00:49 <Deewiant> 2008-08-07 20:39:14 ( dogface_) "dogface" advocates atheism.
19:01:42 -!- tusho has quit ("And then-").
19:02:01 -!- tusho has joined.
19:02:06 -!- olsner has joined.
19:02:17 -!- tusho has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~.
19:02:27 <dogface_> To be loved, a whole life long.
19:02:48 <tusho> should I put rule 110 in the topic again?
19:03:02 <dogface_> Put the Four Axioms in it, too.
19:03:05 <tusho> What is Wolfram's Rule 34? :P
19:03:08 <oerjan> also, since my name was adopted by my parents, not me, i think it may say less about my religion. except that i'm kind of person who uses his real name on irc
19:03:31 <tusho> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:CA_rule_2.png
19:03:32 <oerjan> tusho: use the binary force luke
19:03:35 <tusho> Good luck with Rule 34 of THAT.
19:03:36 <dogface_> oerjan: your religion states that the path to enlightenment is to be proud of oneself.
19:04:15 <oerjan> hm, you may be getting closer there
19:04:24 <tusho> dogface_: It was actually a bot that ran the cellular automata in the topic.
19:04:33 <oerjan> _too_ close. i may have to kill you now.
19:04:35 <tusho> Every second it'd step the topic a bit further (obviously I'd set it to 30 minutes or whatever)
19:04:48 <tusho> oerjan: would that make you proud of yourself?
19:07:07 <oerjan> that's more the running-away-from-enlightenment path. of course many people are following that one.
19:12:47 <tusho> lament: approval for cellular automata topic bot?
19:12:52 <tusho> Changes topic once every 30 mins or 1 hr
19:14:23 -!- dogface_ has changed nick to lamenth.
19:14:28 -!- lamenth has changed nick to dogface_.
19:15:02 <tusho> lament: But do YOU approve?!
19:34:55 <tusho> Make an esoteric linux/unix distribution.
19:35:08 <tusho> Hopefully, it should be bad enough to make Ken Thompson commit suicide.
19:35:11 <tusho> (Don't say Ubuntu.)
19:39:11 <oerjan> now what _is_ the swahili for "incomprehensible"? :D
19:40:09 <oerjan> hm wait that should be zulu
19:44:49 <oerjan> comprehensible v. -qedakala; -qondakala
19:46:05 <oerjan> ooh, zulu has negative inflection of verbs
19:51:47 <oerjan> hm, uhlelo means both system, list and programme
19:51:48 -!- dogface_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:52:55 <oerjan> n. 11/10, does that mean the verb should use inflection 11 with an uhlelo singular subject?
19:54:16 <oerjan> conclusion: aluqondakali means "It is not comprehensible" for a class 11 noun, like uhlelo might be
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19:55:19 <oerjan> (http://isizulu.net/?aluqondakali )
19:56:34 <oerjan> ah indeed class 10 seems to be only for plurals
19:56:54 <oerjan> (http://isizulu.net/?aziqondakali )
19:57:11 -!- Judofyr has quit (Client Quit).
19:57:41 <oerjan> although since uhlelo may also mean a single program, as well as system, both might be appropriate
19:59:43 <oerjan> tusho: there's your OS name
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20:04:04 <olsner> combine a C-to-BF compiler + BF interpreter and you can build a fully BF-based system
20:04:40 <pikhq> So, C2BF + Egobfi.
20:04:59 <pikhq> In other words: Gregor has a fully BF-based system's development environment. :D
20:06:02 <oerjan> running on a simulated processor in Javascript, iirc
20:06:29 <olsner> I wonder how long a linux kernel would take to load in that environment
20:06:40 <pikhq> Well, Gregor *could* probably manage to get Egobfi running in JSMIPS...
20:07:16 <pikhq> GregorR: You simply must do so... As a demonstration of your coding might.
20:08:33 <olsner> what I would like is an infinite tower of recursive interpreters, such that e.g. the underlying jsmips is actually interpreted by itself by ways of jsmips/spidermonkey/c2bf/egobfi/jsmips :D
20:09:04 <olsner> fix (jsmips . spidermonkey . c2bf . egobfi) -- in pseudo-haskell
20:10:07 <oerjan> if we take Moore's law into account, it should work :D
20:11:05 <pikhq> C2BF sure as hell won't compile anything useful... Yet.
20:11:10 -!- revcompgeek has joined.
20:11:15 -!- revcompgeek has left (?).
20:11:40 <olsner> I've been thinking about building a (linux) distribution where everything is llvm:ized
20:11:58 <tusho> guess i'll show the active peeps my concatenative lang
20:11:58 <tusho> 0 .n 0 1 [dup [+ .n] dip swap] loop
20:12:03 <tusho> ^ infinite fibonacci program
20:12:49 <olsner> user-space that is, basically just a normal linux kernel, a hardware-specific llvm jit interpreter, and then every binary is just llvm bitcode files
20:16:09 <pikhq> OMFG; Gregor wrote a 9th opus.
20:16:29 <pikhq> http://codu.org/music.php
20:21:44 -!- Judofyr has joined.
20:23:52 * Sgeo growls at the fact that it's .mid
20:26:45 * Sgeo wonders if listening to the growing rendering might be a bad idea
20:30:06 <tusho> what's wrong with midi Sgeo
20:30:35 <Deewiant> you never know what it's supposed to sound like
20:31:07 <Sgeo> tusho, can't keep timidity running, when I do, the MIDIs always stutter or something. The sound card or whatever doesn't do MIDI, apparently. So I wrote something to pass through MIDI files to timidity
20:31:08 <Deewiant> plus, the Roland VSTi crashes foobar2000 so I have to convert them to .oggs :-P
20:31:30 * tusho has a real mt-32, bitches
20:31:44 * Sgeo has a lot of files on his computer with filenames ending with .mid.ogg
20:32:51 <Deewiant> tusho: well, for /you/ there's nothing wrong with midi then >_<
20:33:06 <tusho> Deewiant: It's not plugged in, though.
20:33:13 <tusho> I don't know if I could even plug it in to an iMac.
20:33:24 <tusho> Deewiant: I have no power adapter for it.
20:33:27 <tusho> I bought it like 2-3 years ago. :P
20:33:31 <tusho> It is rather dusty.
20:33:47 <Deewiant> if you can deliver it here, and for free :-P
20:38:06 * oerjan _thinks_ you are both within the EU, at least
20:38:22 <oerjan> practically next door, that
20:38:58 <tusho> I also have a theremin.
20:39:02 <tusho> It cost, uh, £200?
20:39:24 <Deewiant> theremins are supposed to be built, not bought :-)
20:41:40 <tusho> it's a moog and all :P
20:41:52 <Deewiant> aren't moogs like the only ones worth getting anyway
20:42:10 * oerjan smells a citation needed
20:42:19 <tusho> its an etherwave though, not one of those fancy wooden ones
20:43:13 <oerjan> actually maybe just delete it
20:43:46 <tusho> theremins are hugely popular
20:43:59 <tusho> do you really want to delete that article oerjan
20:45:37 <oerjan> no, just the last change :D
20:46:26 <oerjan> "One of the greatest theremin players resides in League City, Texas. he is 20 years old and has been playing for 21 years."
20:46:42 <tusho> that doesn't even make sense
20:46:47 <tusho> did he play it in the womb
20:47:11 <oerjan> i didn't notice it was 1 year _more_ than he'd lived
20:47:43 <Deewiant> I'll undo your undo and add [citation needed]
20:47:51 <oerjan> although i did remark it needed a citation
20:52:23 <oerjan> maybe you _could_ play it in the womb - it doesn't need to be touched, after all :D
20:53:10 <Deewiant> maybe he rounded the 21 years but not his age, as is standard
20:53:19 <Deewiant> i.e. he's 20 years and 10 months old, or whatever
20:58:02 <tusho> For the 2-cell unbounded integer brainfuck - which is TC -
20:58:06 <tusho> what minimalisations can you do?
20:59:56 <oerjan> 2-cell? is that enough?
21:00:40 <tusho> it's a minsky machine
21:01:03 <RodgerTheGreat> so you encode the tape in a single digit and use the other cell as the machine's state?
21:01:05 <oerjan> i'd have thought you needed one more bf cell to simulate minsky cells
21:01:12 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: pretty sure, yeah
21:01:17 <tusho> but yeah, I wonder what instruction minimalisations you could do with that
21:01:36 <RodgerTheGreat> it'd be pretty awful to use for anything nontrivial. :|
21:02:22 <oerjan> i'd think the bf program position would be the state
21:03:12 <tusho> to be able to do all the IO bf programs can you'd need a 3rd cell
21:03:19 <tusho> (for tmp storage to extract a single cell to output)
21:03:29 <oerjan> i did not consider IO there
21:03:42 <tusho> i think 2 is TC and 3 for IO-complete
21:03:47 <oerjan> i just think simulating a tape with 2 BF cells seems too hard
21:03:52 <RodgerTheGreat> you might actually need temp storage just to extract cells for manipulation, really.
21:04:08 <tusho> ok, 3-4 cells then
21:04:14 <oerjan> recall that a tape needs 2 stacks
21:04:23 <tusho> either way, I wonder what instruction minimalisation we could do when applying these restrictions
21:04:58 <RodgerTheGreat> let's prove it ourselves. How would we go about encoding a tape in a small number and then accessing and altering specific cells using BF commands?
21:05:30 <oerjan> i think a stack can be emulated with 2 BF cells.
21:05:50 <oerjan> 2 stacks, i.e. a tape, requires 3 if you can share one cell as tempspace
21:06:01 <RodgerTheGreat> I imagine you'd do an algorithm similar to how you extract the digits of a number, unless there's an easier way
21:06:26 <oerjan> binary digits is enough
21:09:26 <oerjan> hm the wiki is not helpful, it talks about 5-register minsky machines
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21:17:08 * Sgeo <3 the KQ music
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21:44:21 <lament> cellular automata topic bot?
21:47:18 <psygnisfive> we should just have an automata topic bot.
21:47:43 <psygnisfive> tho that might as well be me. i can tell you about automata. maybe. :X
21:48:20 <oerjan> i say automayta, you say automahta
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21:49:14 <psygnisfive> actually i say it like its supposed to be said: /OtAm@4@/
21:51:15 * oerjan throws a rotten automaton at psygnisfive
21:51:18 <psygnisfive> tho obviously in normal speech the second t is tapped and sounds more like a d
21:51:22 <tusho> lament: it runs a rule 110 automation in the topic
21:51:27 <tusho> by stepping it every 30 mins/1 hr/whatever
21:51:44 <tusho> in continuing with the tradition of crazy topics...
21:51:49 <tusho> it'd also allow extra stuff in the topic
21:51:51 <lament> tusho: how does it look like?
21:51:52 <tusho> that is you could do
21:52:00 <tusho> log url | cellular state | some stuff
21:52:04 <tusho> and it'd only modify the middle
21:52:20 <tusho> lament: I had one in #esoteric-blah a while back, it basically did it with * and - or whatever
21:52:23 <tusho> it looked really neat
21:52:34 <tusho> i'll have to rewrite it due to different machine but that'd only take a second
21:53:04 <psygnisfive> i propose we use Kraftwerks We are the Robots
21:53:20 <tusho> nah it'd have to be made by fuge
21:53:25 <tusho> whatever that lang is called
21:53:47 -!- tusho has changed nick to meowbot.
21:53:52 <meowbot> (C.A.T get it arf arf arf)
21:54:19 <meowbot> Nick MeowBot is already registered to Jerick.
21:54:23 -!- meowbot has changed nick to catbot.
21:54:24 * oerjan thought arf was a dog sound
21:54:39 -!- catbot has changed nick to OerjansTerribleP.
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21:56:29 <psygnisfive> i propose that the song we have as a themesong
21:56:37 <tusho> which rule should I use?
21:56:40 <tusho> 110 is the most interesting right
21:57:02 <tusho> rule 110 grows leftwards
21:57:11 <tusho> it'd be nicer just to have one of the patterny ones
21:57:23 <tusho> even though TCness in the topic is fun
21:57:34 <psygnisfive> ofcourse, im convinced that playing the full Art of the Fugue to the Fugue interpreter would summon god or some other magnificent event
21:58:03 <oerjan> you could always use wrapping
21:58:05 <tusho> cellular automata are more fun
21:59:07 <tusho> need a pretty cellular automata that doesn't grow...
21:59:27 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They're_Coming_to_Take_Me_Away_Ha-Haaa!
22:00:05 <oerjan> tusho: i said, just use wrapping
22:00:12 <tusho> oerjan: in what way?
22:00:28 <oerjan> left end wraps to right end
22:02:02 <oerjan> although rule 110 tends to degrade into a small number of gliders on the ether pattern
22:02:17 <tusho> what would you suggest then?
22:02:31 <oerjan> (possibly zero, although you can prevent that by having the width _not_ be a multiple of 14)
22:03:36 <oerjan> i think rule 30 is also an interesting one?
22:03:52 <tusho> but it grows both ways
22:04:25 <oerjan> i still suggest wrapping regardless of rule
22:06:25 <tusho> I implemented rule 30
22:06:27 <tusho> but it never grows..
22:06:56 <tusho> it needs to pretend it has an infinite list
22:07:35 <tusho> I suck at implementing this :D
22:16:36 <tusho> oerjan: I'm unsure how to do wrapping
22:17:07 <tusho> but yeah, I'm just not sure the general algorithm
22:17:10 <tusho> for wrapping the cellular automata
22:18:55 <oerjan> you can modify the string by adding the first and last chars at the opposite end
22:19:16 <tusho> how does that wrap it though?
22:19:53 <tusho> 'then remove afterward'?
22:20:24 <oerjan> it depends how your base algorithm does things
22:21:33 <oerjan> another possibility would be to use mod to look up indices
22:23:55 <tusho> I just have a black-box function that changes a global array atm :)
22:24:00 <tusho> shaped like ["0","0","1"]
22:24:24 <oerjan> right and what does that function do at the ends
22:24:31 <tusho> width = 3 + $cells.length
22:24:31 <tusho> $cells = (['0','0'] + $cells + ['0','0']).enum_cons(3).map {|l| $rule[l]}
22:24:39 <tusho> hm it doesn't even use width
22:24:43 <tusho> $cells = (['0','0'] + $cells + ['0','0']).enum_cons(3).map {|l| $rule[l]}
22:24:50 <tusho> $rule = {["0", "0", "0"]=>"0", ["1", "1", "0"]=>"0", ["1", "1", "1"]=>"0", ["0", "1", "0"]=>"1", ["0", "1", "1"]=>"1", ["1", "0", "1"]=>"0", ["0", "0", "1"]=>"1", ["1", "0", "0"]=>"1"}
22:25:37 <oerjan> i see so you add ['0','0'] at both ends. well just add the opposite end chars instead.
22:26:02 <tusho> $cells[-2, -1] + $cells + $cells[0, 1]?
22:26:55 <oerjan> except i'm not sure why you add 2 chars rather than just 1
22:27:36 <tusho> oerjan: $cells = ([$cells[-1]] + $cells + [$cells[0]]).enum_cons(3).map {|l| $rule[l]}
22:27:38 <tusho> just makes it go 1
22:27:40 <tusho> then 0 0 0 0 0 0...
22:30:36 <tusho> the arrows in the pattern
22:32:01 <tusho> i've put it on speed mode
22:32:04 <oerjan> ah yes i guess adding two zeros at the end is the thing if you _want_ to grow
22:32:04 <tusho> (one change per sec)
22:32:10 <tusho> so we can see it in action a bit
22:32:35 <tusho> otpbot.rb:20:in `write': Broken pipe (Errno::EPIPE)
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22:33:09 <oerjan> one change per sec may be above the flooding limit
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22:33:14 <tusho> i did it every 3 secs
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22:33:44 <tusho> hmph, it was more exciting in #esoteric-blah
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22:34:29 <oerjan> verdickt: verdammt! :D
22:35:06 <M0ny> wtf, topic flood :p
22:35:42 <tusho> M0ny: cellular automata floo
22:37:35 <oerjan> sadly my client won't show long enough lines to see the topic messages nicely
22:37:55 <lament> my irc client doesn't even display the topic (but it does display topic changes)
22:38:15 <tusho> there has to be _something_ we can do to spruce up the topic
22:38:20 <tusho> maybe a markov chain topic?
22:39:18 <oerjan> i _do_ see the topic itself at the top, it was like a movie. but 1d automata are nicest when shown in 2d
22:39:35 <lament> in 1d, we ought to be showing 0d automata
22:39:41 <tusho> it's the triangles that do it
22:39:44 <lament> (0d automaton = markov chain!)
22:40:19 <tusho> lament: WELL THEN!
22:40:22 <tusho> it looks like it's decided
22:40:34 <tusho> should it just regurgitate #esoteric or something else too?
22:41:20 <lament> that would make us look smart
22:41:46 <tusho> maybe it should regurgitate some hacking channel on another server
22:42:39 <lament> #haskell uses a bunch of advanced terminology
22:42:57 <tusho> zygomorphic prehistormimes
22:43:11 <tusho> lament: so it should listen to #esoteric _and_ haskell
22:43:18 <tusho> so we get things like 'bounded turing zygomorphisms'
22:43:22 <oerjan> proteocategorically memeographic
22:44:19 * oerjan wonders if there is a paleontology channel
22:44:34 <lament> although i think in #esoteric we mostly talk about gay rape
22:44:38 <lament> and not the Turing kind
22:45:20 <tusho> main.c:7:20: error: malloc.h: No such file or directory
22:45:25 <oerjan> i don't know that Turing was ever convicted of rape
22:45:26 <tusho> STUPID FREAKING ABANDONWARE
22:46:09 <oerjan> of course if he had, it would have been gay
22:46:45 <tusho> i686-apple-darwin8-gcc-4.0.1: unrecognized option '-shared'
22:47:19 <oerjan> at this rate i think we should just regurgitate tusho
22:47:49 <lament> or just put direct quotes in the topic
22:48:08 -!- lament has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | STUPID FREAKING ABANDONWARE.
22:48:55 * tusho contemplates feeding the entire backlog of #esoteric to the bot
22:49:53 -!- lament has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | STUPID FREAKING ABANDONWARE.
22:50:36 <tusho> goddamn I just want a megahal binary
22:51:30 <tusho> oerjan: a markov chain bot
22:51:42 -!- Corun has joined.
22:51:43 <tusho> it has something like two opposite-direction 4-order markov chains one for punctuation or something
22:51:45 <tusho> I don't understand it
22:52:21 <tusho> ARGH FUCKING .SIT FILE
22:52:51 <oerjan> hm the WP page has disputed notability
22:57:34 <tusho> woop woop installed
22:58:22 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Woop_Woop <- this you mean?
22:58:23 * tusho downloads all the logs
23:00:45 <tusho> wget isn't mirroring prop'ly
23:01:03 <oerjan> you should leave out those that contain elder god names
23:01:21 <oerjan> wget may be doing that automatically
23:01:34 -!- RedDak has joined.
23:02:00 <tusho> Disallow: /~nef/logs/
23:02:08 <tusho> how can I tell wget to ignore robots.txt
23:03:34 <tusho> A long time will take this.
23:06:44 <tusho> lament: how often should it change the topic?
23:20:12 -!- dogface has joined.
23:20:52 <dogface> Are there compilers to Unlambda?
23:24:04 * tusho watches it be train'd
23:27:03 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:28:58 <tusho> help. have not memory for this
23:29:05 <tusho> megahakl be import slow
23:29:53 -!- olsner has joined.
23:30:23 <oerjan> my memory is going. i can feel it.
23:31:08 <tusho> though still slow.
23:31:16 <dogface> We only need one compiler.
23:31:52 <dogface> Why write a new compiler when you can take two compilers, compose them, and compile the result?
23:32:32 <tusho> how long will this take
23:32:58 <pikhq> Because new compilers can be more efficient when compiling.
23:33:20 <tusho> can't wait this long.
23:33:21 <dogface> I guess some hand-optimization is necessary.
23:33:48 <pikhq> tusho: Doing what?
23:33:56 <dogface> I know of a simple extension to Unlambda that would make it Much Better
23:33:57 <tusho> megahal import of this whole channel
23:34:18 * pikhq is slowly doing pvmove magic
23:34:24 <tusho> 544673 megahal.trn
23:34:33 <dogface> ``Exy returns either x or y. `Rx makes the interpreter happy and returns x. `Px makes the interpreter sad and returns x.
23:34:46 <tusho> pikhq: how many lines do you think I should train it with
23:35:35 <dogface> Actually, 1337*ln(1337) would be a good number.
23:36:26 <pikhq> Oh, the fun that can be had with uparrow notation.
23:36:35 * tusho tries again with shorter train
23:36:42 <pikhq> 2^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^2
23:36:56 <tusho> it'll have to learn the more recent gay sex
23:37:12 <dogface> Do you consider "(G_)^1334 64" to be unambiguous?
23:37:34 <dogface> Hmm, we really need a system for representing Very Large Numbers.
23:38:10 <tusho> Training from file: 100%
23:39:24 <dogface> { x } y means the string x repeated y times. ( x | y ) means x y x. 0 means 0. + x means x+1.
23:39:50 <dogface> Well, let's not just say 0 means 0; let's say all natural numbers are themselves.
23:40:42 <dogface> "{+}5 5" is "+ + + + + 5", which is 10. How to interpret braces inside braces is left as an exercise for the reader.
23:41:47 <pikhq> dogface: There's been a ton of them.
23:42:11 <pikhq> Asimov did one, Knuth did one, I think oerjan did one, I bet ais523 did one...
23:42:27 <dogface> Coming up with a system for representing Very Large Numbers is a lot like coming up with a system for representing ordinal numbers.
23:42:29 <tusho> -rw-r--r-- 1 ehird ehird 2.4M 2008-08-07 23:42 megahal.brn
23:42:49 <tusho> >>> mh_python.doreply("How are you today?")
23:42:49 <tusho> zsh: bus error python
23:43:07 <tusho> >>> mh_python.doreply("How are you today?")
23:43:08 <tusho> 'Machine, secondly, implement the turing paper uses a delta symbol in lambda calculus.'
23:43:18 <tusho> >>> mh_python.doreply("What is the meaning of life?")
23:43:19 <tusho> zsh: bus error python
23:44:04 * dogface thinks about why "the smallest ordinal number not expressible in ZFC" cannot be written in ZFC
23:44:20 <tusho> > What is the meaning of life?
23:44:21 <tusho> zsh: bus error ~/megahal-9.1.1/megahal -d .
23:44:27 <tusho> ENTERPRISE-GRADE SOFTWARE
23:44:43 <psygnisfive> isnt megahal one of those loebner prize bots?
23:45:06 <tusho> its gonna be changing the topics around here
23:45:08 <tusho> if it stops crashing
23:45:24 <dogface> Hmm, making a ZFC in ZFC. Add some axioms: there's a set called Mini-ZFC, and the sets in Mini-ZFC satisfy the ZFC axioms themselves.
23:45:31 <tusho> >>> mh_python.doreply("What should the next topic be?")
23:45:36 <dogface> Is there some other prize that isn't shit?
23:45:37 <tusho> psygnisfive: megahal is pretty good
23:46:06 <tusho> Yeah. It has to be strong AI otherwise it's trash, right?
23:46:06 <dogface> I should turn GHC into a chatbot.
23:46:08 <psygnisfive> and dont say the loebner prize is a turing test
23:46:10 <tusho> It can't just be amusing.
23:49:12 <oerjan> dogface: there's probably some way to get from "the smallest ordinal number not expressible in ZFC exists" to "ZFC is consistent" or similar
23:49:30 <oerjan> which hits against godel's incompleteness theorem
23:50:11 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving").
23:50:58 <dogface> The opposite of "the smallest ordinal number not expressible in ZFC exists" is "all ordinal numbers are expressible in ZFC".
23:51:34 <oerjan> i did say "or similar". there is probably some technical work to be done.
23:52:11 <psygnisfive> There exists some number that is not expressible in ZFC that is smaller than all other numbers not expressible in ZFC
23:52:27 <psygnisfive> the opposte of that would be that there does NOT exist some number ...
23:52:43 <psygnisfive> which would say that there is no smallest number not expressible in ZFC
23:53:04 <tusho> who has non-markov-chain ideas
23:53:14 <oerjan> i don't think that makes much difference. with ordinal numbers there always is a smallest one
23:53:14 <psygnisfive> which is not the same at all as saying that all ordinal numbers are expressible in ZFC
23:53:17 <dogface> tusho: turn GHC into a chatbot.
23:53:45 <oerjan> ordinal number is a technical term
23:53:49 <lament> tusho: create a virtual machine with a really small memory, put memory in the topic
23:53:51 <dogface> Very few real numbers are ordinal, and very few ordinal numbers are real.
23:55:03 <lament> tusho: and execute an instruction every so often.
23:55:33 <psygnisfive> well either way, the two statements are not the same
23:55:56 <lament> very few real numbers are real.
23:57:16 <dogface> psygnisfive: you say "there is no minimal ordinal number not expressible in ZFC" is not the same as "there is no ordinal number not expressible in ZFC"?
23:58:37 <tusho> lament: how often should it change the topic
23:58:46 <dogface> As statements of ZFC + "ZFC is consistent" (I like to call it ZFC_1), both are false anyway.
23:59:05 <psygnisfive> i dont do good with logical statements rendered in plain english :(
23:59:48 <dogface> ZFC + "ZFC is inconsistent" is definitely inconsistent, isn't it?