00:00:44 <pikhq> Intentional vagueness is not humor.
00:01:00 <pikhq> It is an offense punishable by death.
00:01:10 <tusho> pikhq: So's your face.
00:01:12 <tusho> And that's what SHE said!
00:01:49 <pikhq> http://www.xkcd.com/169/
00:02:30 <tusho> pikhq: I was being very specific.
00:02:34 <tusho> i was asking what I was full of.
00:03:06 <pikhq> You suck at punctuation.
00:03:11 <pikhq> And for that, you die.
00:04:23 <tusho> pikhq: Hey, I have an idea. Let's make people die for various unimportant reasons.
00:05:19 <pikhq> "Hey, you there!" "Yeah?" "You're in front of me." *bang*
00:06:09 <tusho> "Hi, how are you?" *bang* "How dare you use abbreviations like 'hi'. The English language demands blood."
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04:40:54 <Slereah_> Tell me what the fuck is this shit.
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06:41:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you want to use abs() or arg() (or corresponding maxima functions) if you want to see the strange-ness I mentioned..
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07:53:29 <asiekierka> I'm making a Tap Code interpreter/decoder in BF
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07:54:01 <asiekierka> I wonder how to check if a value is more than 10, because if it is, i need to add 1 to it
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09:18:34 <AnMaster> <optbot> Mony: (I only have 807 comment karma too. People just can't accept someone who's INFALLABLY RIGHT)
09:18:34 <optbot> AnMaster: modern mail clients, probably including gmail, make it really difficult not to :(
09:18:39 <AnMaster> that sounds like tusho saying it
09:27:27 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you could make almost anything, after all brainfuck is turing complete
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09:34:55 <asiekierka> A non-text adventure BF Game is impossible
09:35:32 <asiekierka> If there was a delay command, EVERYTHING would be possible
09:36:42 <AnMaster> asiekierka, hm? you could wait for input if that is what you mean
09:37:04 <AnMaster> and a turn based game with ASCII art like nethack is perfectly possible
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09:37:31 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well that would need more advanced IO, like async IO
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09:43:50 <AnMaster> asiekierka, not really, you will still block on user inpuyt
09:43:58 <AnMaster> so it will still be turn based
09:45:04 <AnMaster> wait I just got an idea for making Funge98 sound enterprisy!
09:46:00 <oklopol> you will always find IO shit you need to make new stuff possible
09:46:01 <AnMaster> 'Concurrent Funge-98, features advanced "green threads"'
09:46:11 <oklopol> adding | will not let you shoot lazers.
09:46:12 <AnMaster> you could probably extend that
09:46:26 <AnMaster> "no need for special sync primitives"
09:46:49 <asiekierka> I think i will make something BF-like but simpler
09:47:03 <asiekierka> Input will need to be the map, then user input
09:47:27 <asiekierka> my friend is doing a BF selfbooting floppy disk
09:47:46 <AnMaster> lostkingdom is around 2 MB iirc?
09:48:03 <asiekierka> but it wouldn't fit on a floppy drive anyway
09:49:01 <asiekierka> Maybe if the author will convert the un-enhanced version
09:49:08 <asiekierka> And my friend will get rid of the 64kb limit
09:49:11 <oklopol> you can trivially compress it into a meg
09:49:32 <AnMaster> and you can optimize it in various ways
09:50:05 <AnMaster> for example I generated a C version from it, optimized but used a lot of space for other reasons, the binary was around as large as the source
09:50:07 <asiekierka> I think we could just ask the author to convert the original non-extended version
09:50:14 <AnMaster> but the compiler did all kinds of optimizing
09:50:22 <asiekierka> Since most of the bonus space is long room version text
09:50:24 <AnMaster> like combining ++-- and <> and so on
09:50:51 <asiekierka> copying only BF chars, without newlines and stuff
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09:51:14 <AnMaster> but what I talked about was very un-bft
09:51:31 <AnMaster> as it replaced +++ with "add 3"
09:52:05 <AnMaster> if the number of > and < in a loop is balanced you could probably optimize that too
09:53:01 <AnMaster> say [+>-<+] could be changed into [>-<++] which could then be changed into "substract 1 from next cell, add two to current cell"
09:53:29 <AnMaster> so the resulting code didn't even need to move the pointer
09:54:06 <AnMaster> yet I haven't figured out a good algorithm to do it
09:54:52 <asiekierka> about my turnbased map thing, it wouldnt be that easy
09:55:09 <AnMaster> asiekierka, programming in a tarpit is never easy IMO
09:55:17 <asiekierka> I can store it like: Xsize, Ysize, playerx, playery, (map for X*Y cells)
09:55:48 <AnMaster> well it is pretty easy, just 8 instructions :P
09:56:22 <asiekierka> i dont know ways to do cool stuff in it yet
09:57:06 <asiekierka> Im still slightly wondering how to check whether a value is 10 or more. I thought subtracting 9 from it, but that wouldn't work if the value is < 9
09:58:21 <asiekierka> Subtracting while checking if it goes zero? Uh, no. I'd need to check the other value too.
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10:59:02 <asiekierka> I am going to make a BF Function Collection
11:02:43 <oklopol> what algos were you thinking?
11:02:52 <oklopol> there's a bunch in existance already on esolangs.org
11:03:43 <oklopol> asiekierka: Subtracting while checking if it goes zero? Uh, no. I'd need to check the other value too. <<< what other value?
11:07:22 <asiekierka> ,>,[>+++++<-]<[->>+<<]>>> now we have the tap code value in cell 3; Yay
11:07:39 <asiekierka> how to check if the value is larger than 10
11:07:53 <asiekierka> It doesn't have K and substitutes C for K
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11:08:43 <asiekierka> and J is at position 10, K isn't there, so L is at 11
11:09:05 <asiekierka> If the tap code position value is greather than 10, i must add one to it
11:09:26 <oklopol> don't you just find all k's and substitute c for them?
11:11:10 <oklopol> well tap code wasn't just english with k->c
11:11:49 <oklopol> now that the wikipedia page opened
11:13:24 <oklopol> -[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[current cell != 0, add 10 to get original]]]]]]]]]]
11:14:00 <oklopol> if it goes in, it was more than 10.
11:14:14 <oklopol> if not, then it either already was in, or it was less than 10
11:14:34 <oklopol> when you go in, you can set up a flag to signify you were in, so when you get out, you can check whether you were in
11:14:39 <oklopol> this is a simple way to do if's
11:14:52 <asiekierka> What if it doesn't go in? How to get the value back to normal
11:15:23 <oklopol> if it doesn't go in, current cell has become 0.
11:17:26 <asiekierka> I needed to check how to skip the second code part if i executed the first one
11:20:53 <asiekierka> Now i must add 65 to the output value, output it, return to cell 0 and close the loop. Yay.
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11:24:49 <oklopol> one out of 1542623412 of all possible functions done then.
11:25:20 <asiekierka> I must check if i followed all the cell positions correctly
11:25:26 <asiekierka> I think i'm adding A to the wrong place
11:25:47 <asiekierka> I forgot to decrase 48 from both values
11:28:20 <asiekierka> 1) The first loop (multiplying) wasnt executed at all.
11:29:04 <tusho> i love it when I wake up to an alive #esoteric!
11:33:35 <asiekierka> except that i must add 3 characters near the end:
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11:34:09 <asiekierka> hopefully i have this bffilter app my friend made for me
11:34:21 <asiekierka> it filters everything, only the bf chars go through
11:37:59 <asiekierka> when fixed everything (a one-time run now)
11:38:08 <fizzie> I'm not sure I'd call a brainfuck filter an "app", given that you can just pipe your file through something like ... | perl -pne 's/[^,.<>\[\]+-]//g' | ...
11:38:51 <fizzie> Bhrrrr. I'd feel all lost and alone on a system without a Perl.
11:40:50 <tusho> fizzie: He's on windows.
11:41:44 <fizzie> Hey, I found the brainfuck interpreter I wrote for the C programming course homework.
11:42:03 <fizzie> main(j,a,n,t)int*a;{unsigned short p=-1;char*r=calloc(n=p+1,6),*i=r+n,**k=i+n;for(read(open(*++a,t=0),i,p);n=*i-43,t<0?n-48?n-50||++t:--t:n?n-2?n-19?n-17?n-3?n-48?n-50?n-1||read(0,r+p,1):p[r]?i=k[j]:j--:p[r]?k[++j]=i:t--:putchar(p[r]):p--:p++:p[r]--:p[r]++,*i++;);}
11:42:40 <tusho> asiekierka: Er, you've been nabbing on about organizing brainfuck contests and thinking of various large projects (like games) to code in BF since 2007.
11:42:49 <tusho> And you've only just wrote your first trivial brainfuck program?
11:43:48 <tusho> fizzie: As the other active person, can you share in my facepalm?
11:43:53 <tusho> One just doesn't seem to be enough
11:44:21 <asiekierka> But no, seriously. I just liked the BF concept
11:44:26 <asiekierka> but was too lazy to do something in it
11:44:32 <asiekierka> I was learning all the esolangs in 2007
11:44:35 <tusho> asiekierka: perhaps you should focus on the text editor instead of the irc window :)
11:45:04 <asiekierka> Now i was finally bored enough to make a BF app.
11:45:21 <asiekierka> also, does optbot have bf running functionality
11:45:22 <optbot> asiekierka: hush tusho
11:46:02 <tusho> probably psygnisfive said it to me when I was talking
11:46:06 <tusho> he doesn't like me talking, generally.
11:46:14 <asiekierka> But tusho, does optbot have BF code running functionality?
11:46:14 <optbot> asiekierka: i might just try that CW6670 one
11:46:20 <tusho> asiekierka: yes. just ask it
11:46:52 <asiekierka> optbot, !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@
11:46:52 <optbot> asiekierka: too bad you can't use UPnP or whatever
11:47:00 <asiekierka> !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@
11:47:09 <tusho> asiekierka: you have to ask him in plain english!
11:47:32 <tusho> be without brainfuck code running functionality
11:47:40 <tusho> optbot: Can you interpret BF?
11:47:40 <optbot> tusho: Swhacks were voluntary point deduction.
11:48:03 <tusho> it just has operating hours
11:48:09 <tusho> it makes sense every now and then
11:48:13 <asiekierka> Im just going to put up my own BF bot here
11:48:13 <tusho> and spews crap all the other times
11:48:23 <tusho> why not just use optbot
11:48:28 <optbot> asiekierka: would it go 50 times faster?
11:48:49 <optbot> asiekierka: >>> bf ,[.,] <<< ?infinite loop
11:51:22 <fizzie> I pasted a C brainfuck interpreter just few lines ago; does your Perl-less system also lack a C compiler?
11:52:05 <asiekierka> I will need a BF self-interpreter for it xD
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11:52:25 <tusho> fizzie: He wants it as an irc bot.
11:52:43 <tusho> fizzie: Also, now that he has written his first trivial BF program, seems he is back to aspirations of writing an OS in it.
11:53:00 <fizzie> Well, his mirc script can execute the compiled C interpreter. Or something.
11:53:55 <tusho> Sketch for a very short brainfuck interp in C:
11:54:15 <tusho> Implement each instruction in asm.
11:54:20 <tusho> Then, have a character array with it all in
11:54:26 <tusho> (pad it out with nops so they're all the same length)
11:54:44 <tusho> Then do some modulo stuff into the table and cast it to a function and call it or something.
11:55:31 <fizzie> I'm not convinced it would be much shorter than, say, my 270-character one.
11:56:51 <tusho> fizzie: Well, [[main="machine code";]] would probably be shorter. :P
11:57:47 <tusho> How do you say "return 0" in machine code...
11:58:15 <fizzie> Depends on the calling convention. Usually something like "mov eax, 0; ret"
11:58:26 <tusho> Yes, I know the asm.
11:58:32 <tusho> I guess I'll just have to assemble it huh
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11:59:59 <fizzie> 0x66, 0x31, 0xc0, 0xc3.
12:00:15 <fizzie> If you do xor eax, eax; ret. The 'mov' instruction is longer, what with the four-byte literal in there.
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12:01:23 <tusho> zsh: illegal hardware instruction ./a.out
12:02:42 <fizzie> Actually I think it might be just "0x31 0xc0 0xc3" in the normal automatically-32-bit x86 mode. I'm not sure of my nasm flags.
12:02:59 <tusho> fizzie: The \0 that C puts at the end of strings wouldn't break it, would it?
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12:04:23 <tusho> Looks like I'm not saving much if anything. :P
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12:10:07 <fizzie> I couldn't get a raw-assembler .c file that GCC would bother compiling without doing:
12:10:11 <fizzie> char main[3] __attribute__ ((section (".text"))) = "1\300\303";
12:10:25 <fizzie> (It wanted to segfault without the section attribute.)
12:10:34 <tusho> That kind of sucks.
12:10:41 <tusho> Wasn't there an IOCCC entry that took the form:
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12:11:08 <fizzie> Haven't seen, but could be. I'm not sure if x86_64 is a bit pickier with this stuff, anyway.
12:11:32 <tusho> hahahahh linkinus grabs ops when it c an
12:11:33 <tusho> [12:11:08] ← asiekierka left the channel. ()
12:11:33 <tusho> [12:11:08] ← tusho left the channel. ("Boing!")
12:11:33 <tusho> [12:11:08] → tusho joined the channel.
12:11:44 <tusho> as soon as the channel goes empty it seems to cycle to get ops
12:12:08 <fizzie> An opportunistic client.
12:12:32 <asiekierka> you know i wouldnt come in that channel back anyway
12:12:40 <asiekierka> and who'd even like to have a channel #lold
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12:29:51 <asiekierka> Inspired by the newest userfriendly comic: "I need an esoteric language that will make me into a millionaire. Can you code it for me?"
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12:33:46 <asiekierka> what you worked on in esolangs lastly?
12:41:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | simply.
12:41:59 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i'm too tired to implement any trig functions.
12:42:09 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | the pencil sharpener in my biology classroom is so good that the PPS is actually blowing out of the pencil sharpener, so that if you put a pencil too close to it, the pencil becomes sharpened..
12:45:21 <asiekierka> I hate it when i'm back and everyone is off
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13:34:00 <asiekierka> If you were given a chance to buy something computer-related, but only one thing, no matter how much it costs, what would you buy?
13:34:45 <tusho> asiekierka: a machine that can make any machine
13:35:39 <tusho> asiekierka: I'd wait until someone made such a machine.
13:35:52 <asiekierka> But you'll be given a chance only for one day
13:36:15 <asiekierka> the #1 or #2 supercomputer on the TOP 500 list
13:36:23 <asiekierka> Then i'll set it to compute BF programs
13:36:54 <asiekierka> i wake up, and there waits a 1GB BF program
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14:14:33 <tusho> asiekierka: go outside
14:15:03 <asiekierka> as i have like, 2-3 hours of free time
14:15:17 <tusho> not that many BF programs that are yet to be written by now :P
14:15:41 <asiekierka> except optimizing "hello world" of course
14:16:03 <tusho> egobot has pretty much got hello world down
14:16:08 <tusho> as far as optimizing goes
14:16:33 <asiekierka> what's the smallest BF code that says "Hello World!" then
14:19:56 <tusho> use the genetic evolution thing
14:20:12 <asiekierka> wait, BF has a "genetic evolution thing"?
14:20:50 <asiekierka> ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@
14:20:56 <asiekierka> Is there a way to optimize THAT hello world?
14:21:19 <tusho> i've seen a 104-byte
14:26:35 <tusho> asiekierka: you are obsessing over BF too much
14:27:34 <tusho> asiekierka: it's a good language but there are other esolangs...
14:27:35 <asiekierka> So propose me another esolang to obsess over
14:27:42 <tusho> how about underload
14:28:07 <tusho> and that's a ridiculous reason
14:28:31 <Deewiant> 106 bytes: ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.
14:28:37 <tusho> asiekierka: Esoteric != "has little commands."
14:28:41 <tusho> That's called a tarpit.
14:28:45 <tusho> There is interestingness beyond tarpits
14:28:46 <Deewiant> (from http://helloworldsite.he.funpic.de/hello.htm#BrainFuck )
14:29:11 <tusho> asiekierka: And turing tarpits tend to be the least interesting esolangs.
14:29:53 <tusho> don't be surprised if people don't seem to respond to you then.
14:30:01 <tusho> most of us are bored of tarpits by now
14:30:45 <asiekierka> No, srsly, befunge has a little too much stuff for me
14:31:07 <tusho> asiekierka please look up the befunge page on the wiki
14:31:25 <tusho> if that has too many commands your taste in esolangs is terminally boring
14:32:47 <asiekierka> i would need to get a selfbootable befunge interpreter
14:32:58 <tusho> asiekierka: HAVING A FEW COMMANDS DOES NOT MAKE AN ESOLANG BAD
14:33:09 <tusho> HAVING TO RUN AN INTERPRETER ON AN OPERATING SYSTEM DOES NOT MAKE AN ESOLANG BAD EITHER
14:34:01 <asiekierka> BEING AN IDIOT DOES NOT MAKE A PERSON BAD EITHER
14:34:35 <tusho> asiekierka: are you calling me an idiot?
14:35:22 <tusho> why do you always call yourself an idio
14:35:27 <tusho> you spend like half of your time doing that
14:41:16 <tusho> i think cfunge can interpret -93 as well as -98
14:42:19 <asiekierka> made a Tap Code decoder in Befunge (nearly)
14:47:08 <Deewiant> 88*1+ -> "A" (or 'A for Funge-98)
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14:49:34 <asiekierka> ,>++++++++[<------>-],>++++++++[<------>-]<[>+++++<-]<[->>+<<]>>[->+>+<<]>>[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[+++++++++++>+>]]]]]]]]]]]<[-<[-]<[->+<]>>]++++++++[<++++++++>-]<+.
14:49:58 <tusho> asiekierka: Yes. :P
14:50:10 <tusho> Offtopic, what would you people use to register a .se domain?
14:50:25 <tusho> All the registrars I've found either are ridiculously expensive or don't let you change the nameservers
14:55:35 <tusho> asiekierka: a registrar
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15:01:26 <asiekierka> untested finished tap code decoder for befunge-93:
15:03:06 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what is it trying to do
15:03:26 <AnMaster> you take two numbers, modulo 5
15:04:10 <asiekierka> You input the number of taps, and get the letter
15:04:11 <AnMaster> then 8*8 (64), then add 1 to it, then add 65 to the the second number you read (times 5)
15:04:25 <AnMaster> then add the first number to that
15:05:49 <AnMaster> asiekierka, it checks if the final number is smaller than 5*2?
15:06:30 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well the final number would be larger than 10
15:07:04 <AnMaster> which you then *add* to maybe 0
15:07:28 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I got no clue what it is
15:07:34 <AnMaster> but I can see it will always be larger yes
15:08:35 <tusho> what registrar would you use to register an .se domain
15:09:32 <asiekierka> not > ^, but >xx^ or something, to indicate code flow?
15:10:11 <AnMaster> in 98 there are such chars you could use
15:10:24 <asiekierka> Well, i'm going to use funge-93 because tusho said i should use it since 98 is harder
15:10:25 <AnMaster> tusho, I never looked for registrar
15:10:35 <tusho> AnMaster: still ... all of them seem to suck
15:10:40 <tusho> AnMaster: can't change nameserver
15:10:43 <tusho> or hideously expensive
15:10:44 <AnMaster> asiekierka, 98 is harder to *implement*
15:10:51 <tusho> i didn't say that asiekierka
15:10:53 <tusho> i said it's simple
15:10:59 <asiekierka> <asiekierka> uh, should i stay at befunge-93 or migrate to befunge-98?>
15:11:00 <AnMaster> asiekierka, and it is the opposite of a tarpit if you see what I mean
15:11:24 <AnMaster> asiekierka, 93 is easier to learn too, less commands
15:11:40 <asiekierka> does Befunge-93 have commands 98 doesn't?
15:11:41 <AnMaster> asiekierka, in funge98 every printable char have some meaning
15:12:19 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well, there are some semantic differences with spaces in strings between 93 and 98
15:12:43 <AnMaster> ie, 98 does it like html, multiple spaces are ignored
15:12:54 <AnMaster> but apart from that it is a true superset
15:13:05 <asiekierka> well, i replaced 88*1+ with "A" for a little space optimization
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15:24:39 <asiekierka> Befunge also has every program possible made, right
15:25:02 <tusho> asiekierka: we're not like ... program idea generations
15:25:27 <asiekierka> But, anything you want to do but are too lazy maybe
15:26:29 <tusho> asiekierka: how about a web server
15:26:34 <tusho> you'll need -98 to do that
15:26:42 <tusho> for the networking & filesystem fingerprints(modules)
15:28:25 <asiekierka> How about i'll do an interpreter for something in -93
15:28:34 <tusho> probably a good idea
15:28:40 <tusho> asiekierka: what about an underload interp
15:28:42 <tusho> that's quite complicated
15:28:44 <asiekierka> Since an interpreter is the hardest thing in an esolang 50% of the time
15:28:45 <tusho> but still interesting
15:28:57 <tusho> it's not too complicated
15:28:59 <tusho> a little tricky, though
15:29:12 <asiekierka> with a builtin module to read BMP data
15:29:23 <asiekierka> I'd so like Befunge-93 without the limit
15:29:42 <tusho> asiekierka: yes, -98 has no limit
15:29:49 <tusho> 80x25 is an advantage in some ways
15:29:54 <tusho> it forces you to think about using the most of the space
15:33:31 <asiekierka> Anything for my first time making an esolang interpreter in an esolang?
15:33:55 <tusho> asiekierka: well, I guess underload would be a bit too hard
15:34:00 <tusho> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BCT
15:34:19 <tusho> (though your impl won't be TC - befunge-93 isn't TC)
15:34:25 <tusho> (close enough for a lot of things though)
15:35:33 <asiekierka> 0 is removing the bit that's the farthest one left?
15:36:31 <tusho> and 11 = if leftmost data is 1: append 1 to end of data
15:36:35 <tusho> and 10 = if leftmost data is 1: append 0 to end of data
15:36:40 <asiekierka> 1 if the leftmost data-bit is 0, skips the next command?
15:37:06 <tusho> the next command is never skipped
15:37:16 <asiekierka> so 1 if the leftmost bit is 0 just nops?
15:37:27 <tusho> asiekierka: but note the bit below it
15:37:31 <tusho> you don't just execute it and finish
15:37:33 <tusho> you have to "cycle" it
15:37:46 <tusho> it's pretty trivial
15:38:16 <tusho> yeah read the paragraph below :P
15:38:52 <AnMaster> tusho, I wonder, irc bot in erlang, I assume it has already been done though
15:39:04 <AnMaster> anyway not today I think, I think I got a cold
15:39:05 <tusho> AnMaster: obviously :P
15:39:09 <tusho> asiekierka: it describes it on the page
15:39:12 <tusho> read the BCT page all the way through
15:39:16 * AnMaster will probably go to bed soon due to this cold
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15:42:11 <tusho> AnMaster: what do you think about ESO using befunge.org for its fingerprint-URI-service?
15:42:43 <tusho> http://befunge.org/fp/tusho/tardis
15:43:06 <AnMaster> you know I hate time travel :P
15:43:18 <tusho> AnMaster: for legacy ones
15:43:29 <tusho> http://befunge.org/fp/-legacy/TRDS
15:43:35 <tusho> then it's still a valid URI
15:43:36 <AnMaster> well legacy ones can still be loaded with the old names in funge-108
15:43:42 <tusho> as opposed to funge-fingerprint-legacy://
15:43:56 <AnMaster> it should be possible to run most existing programs under funge-108 without modifications
15:43:58 <asiekierka> Still don't quite get it. I think it's just that 10/11 are paired.
15:44:01 <AnMaster> some small needed for k and such
15:44:16 <asiekierka> 10 appends 0 to the end if the leftmost bit is 1
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15:44:18 <tusho> AnMaster: i don't think you should bother with backwards-compatibility for funge-108 really
15:44:34 <tusho> AnMaster: just have a --98 switch or whatever
15:44:46 <tusho> probably, make --98 the default
15:44:46 <AnMaster> tusho, sure cfunge will have that. but still...
15:44:53 <tusho> and have --108 for the 3 108 programs :P
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15:45:05 <tusho> AnMaster: it'd remove a lot of clutter from the spec
15:45:06 <AnMaster> cfunge already got a -s {93,98,108}
15:45:13 <asiekierka> I think i'll just check an interpreter source code
15:45:19 <tusho> and as you said it doesn't have full compatibility atm
15:45:38 <tusho> [15:44:03] <AnMaster> some small needed for k and such
15:45:45 <tusho> you're already backwards-incompatible, might as well take the oppertunity
15:46:07 <AnMaster> tusho, think of the existing codebase ;P
15:46:25 <tusho> AnMaster: gasp, you might have to put a few if (FungeVersion == 98)s in! :P
15:47:04 <AnMaster> where currently I only handle spaces differently, because the space in string is the only thing I seen causing issues
15:47:23 <AnMaster> but rather a semi-compatibility mode
15:47:30 <asiekierka> I think i'll implement Cyclic Tag instead
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15:47:40 <tusho> asiekierka: bitwise is simpler than cyclic tag
15:47:43 <tusho> since it's, uh, only bits
15:47:58 <AnMaster> tusho, depend on what language you implement it in
15:48:06 <AnMaster> bitwise operations in befunge wouldn't be fun
15:48:19 <AnMaster> asiekierka, if you want to compare some number you want 98 btw
15:48:46 <Deewiant> I actually prefer -#v_ sometimes
15:48:55 <asiekierka> How to store the datastring in Befunge-93
15:48:58 <tusho> funge.org would be more fun than befunge.org
15:49:50 <tusho> asiekierka: the stack is probably the best idea
15:49:54 <asiekierka> Yeah, i'd need to put a value at the very bottom
15:50:04 <tusho> but if you hyper-optimized your code you could leave the rest of the fungespace for the code/datastring
15:50:15 <asiekierka> as the leftmost will be the top (okay) and rightmost will be the bottom
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15:50:43 <Deewiant> asiekierka: to the bottom of the stack?
15:50:54 <Deewiant> you'll need a fingerprint for that
15:51:19 <AnMaster> v > "2 is greater than 1">:#,_@
15:51:20 <AnMaster> > 1 2 w "2 and 1 are equal Equal">:#,_@
15:51:22 <Deewiant> well, of course you can store the stack in funge-space
15:51:25 <AnMaster> of course that won't print it correctly
15:51:48 <Deewiant> asiekierka: i.e. 'p' all values on the stack now somewhere, then push your new value, then 'g' them back
15:52:02 <Deewiant> you might have to keep track of the stack size though
15:52:31 <asiekierka> if it'll exceed 80 bytes, i'm going to remove the rightmost databit
15:52:37 <AnMaster> i<tusho> funge.org would be more fun than befunge.org
15:52:55 <tusho> and the interpreter name puns
15:53:09 <AnMaster> tusho, then what about CC.funge.org.I? ;P
15:53:17 <AnMaster> tusho, then what about CC.be.funge.org.I? ;P
15:53:39 <tusho> AnMaster: ccbe.funge.org/i
15:54:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well his domain name...
15:54:11 <tusho> Deewiant: what would you suggest?
15:54:17 <tusho> .com? it's not commercial
15:55:08 <tusho> i am actually a billionare
15:55:14 <tusho> that 12 year old thing was just a disguise
15:55:17 <tusho> you guys want .funge?
15:55:17 <Deewiant> but of course we don't need to use http and hence can drop the .org altogether
15:55:46 <tusho> mailto:c@funge.org
15:55:56 <tusho> mailing to it will be replied to with information about cfunge
15:56:00 <Deewiant> do we have to use a standardized one?
15:56:06 <asiekierka> Ok, i have processing lines ready for ;, 1 and 0
15:56:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, of course, we need URIs
15:56:12 <tusho> otherwise it's not a valid uri
15:57:02 <asiekierka> is g/p's x and y positions calculated from 0-79/0-24 or 1-80/1-25
15:57:02 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you need funge-98 then
15:57:11 <AnMaster> because funge-93 is not turing complete
15:57:24 <Deewiant> tusho, AnMaster: where in the RFC does it say that they need to be officially registered
15:57:26 <tusho> he doesn't need tc AnMaster
15:57:31 <Deewiant> I can't find it in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986
15:57:35 <AnMaster> tusho, well CT would need it right?
15:57:36 <tusho> Deewiant: shrug - I know it's true though
15:57:36 <asiekierka> No language ever on the universe is TC
15:57:48 <tusho> asiekierka: langs are tc
15:57:50 <Deewiant> tusho: wikipedia says only "should"
15:57:55 <tusho> AnMaster: he can implement CT without infinite memory
15:57:59 <tusho> Deewiant: it's somewhere in there
15:58:06 <AnMaster> Individual schemes are not specified by this document. The process
15:58:07 <AnMaster> for registration of new URI schemes is defined separately by [BCP35].
15:58:07 <AnMaster> The scheme registry maintains the mapping between scheme names and
15:58:11 <AnMaster> there are lots of stuff like it
15:58:55 <tusho> Deewiant: yes but ESO are going to give away http uris
15:58:59 <tusho> because it's nicer to be able to just load it and get info
15:59:03 <tusho> instead of googling it or whatever
15:59:25 <AnMaster> tusho, you could document other ones not hosted by you in some standard format as well
15:59:37 <tusho> AnMaster: possibly
15:59:45 <asiekierka> Also, with g/p, do you put x, then y, or the other way around?
15:59:45 <tusho> i'd prefer to keep it away from centralizationt hough
15:59:51 <AnMaster> at least for the *old* established ones
16:00:01 <AnMaster> tusho, I mean the already existing common ones,
16:00:02 <tusho> AnMaster: that'll be under -legacy
16:00:07 <AnMaster> or at least provide info where to find themn
16:00:09 <tusho> http://befunge.org/fp/-legacy/TRDS
16:00:21 <AnMaster> tusho, and I will still allow loading programs with old style name
16:00:32 <tusho> AnMaster: i've argued for why you shouldn't
16:00:52 <AnMaster> URI scheme names, as defined by <scheme> in Section 3.1, form a
16:00:53 <AnMaster> registered namespace that is managed by IANA according to the
16:00:53 <AnMaster> procedures defined in [BCP35]. No IANA actions are required by this
16:01:20 <AnMaster> tusho, changing existing applications to new scheme may be hard
16:01:35 <tusho> put http://befunge.org/fp/-legacy/ in front of it
16:01:46 <AnMaster> tusho, there may be lack of space in funge programs
16:01:48 <tusho> or an appropriate urn:, if that's the legacy route taken
16:01:55 <tusho> AnMaster: um, fungespace is infinite
16:02:07 <AnMaster> tusho, but you need to readjust a lot of existing code sometimes
16:02:18 <tusho> AnMaster: what conceivable new features in funge-108 would justify porting a program over?
16:02:20 <tusho> it's just a clarification
16:02:25 <tusho> not anything worth upgrading to
16:02:26 <AnMaster> at least if you wrote the original program idiomatically
16:02:35 <tusho> therefore, backwards-compatibility is a non-issue
16:02:57 <AnMaster> tusho, what if you want to extend it to use some new fingerprint, I mean in another module of the program ;P
16:03:12 <tusho> AnMaster: yeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssss....
16:03:21 <tusho> the problem is you use your jokes to actually justify changing the standard
16:03:26 <AnMaster> tusho, of course this is not very probable :P
16:03:55 <AnMaster> tusho, but we need to maintain compatibility with existing enterprise level applications!
16:04:20 <tusho> AnMaster: give me a non-joking justification
16:04:33 <tusho> if you can't, then surely you must face what I said and remove it
16:04:42 <AnMaster> tusho, making it possible to run existing code
16:04:56 <tusho> AnMaster: just run it as --98
16:05:09 <tusho> if you think there are going to be any funge-108 interps you are pretty deluded
16:05:11 <AnMaster> the issue of selecting URIs for existing ones
16:05:14 <tusho> funge-108 only that is
16:05:22 <tusho> AnMaster: use an urn
16:05:34 <AnMaster> um yes, they are also a specific name space
16:06:23 <AnMaster> http://www.iana.org/assignments/urn-namespaces/
16:06:44 <tusho> there is a generic one though
16:06:48 <tusho> that you can arbitarily use
16:08:59 <asiekierka> >62*54*3+g:"O"|>55*pv>program continues here
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16:10:43 <asiekierka> and it gives me some optimization in this thing
16:10:46 <tusho> asiekierka: crazy but cool :D
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16:12:29 <AnMaster> asiekierka, where is entry point in that code
16:12:43 <AnMaster> <asiekierka> ^< < < < < < < < < <<
16:13:09 <asiekierka> I wonder if i didn't swap something up
16:13:47 <AnMaster> asiekierka, all the un-needed arrows are confusing
16:14:10 <AnMaster> well for me they signal "something will need to turn here"
16:14:19 <AnMaster> so I look for stuff entering from other directions
16:14:37 <asiekierka> But the code for stack cleaning looks so obfuscated
16:14:51 <AnMaster> you could make it more compact I think
16:14:56 <asiekierka> it generates the value 12 (X), 20+3=23 (Y)
16:15:06 <asiekierka> Then it takes the value from it (loopty loop position
16:15:49 <AnMaster> the :) was a smiley, not funge code btw
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16:16:00 <asiekierka> If it's not, it goes to enter another number, and repeats the code
16:16:02 <AnMaster> I think it may be funge-98 only
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16:16:27 <tusho> AnMaster: can you believe asiekierka only decided to learn befunge two hours ago?
16:17:39 <asiekierka> I think i know how to cut it to 3 lines
16:18:37 <tusho> asiekierka: how much of the full interp have you written?
16:19:07 <asiekierka> Then the actual function implementation
16:19:54 <tusho> asiekierka: remember, you can fit code in vertically
16:20:00 <tusho> and then use horizontal if
16:20:05 <asiekierka> is there a way to check whether the stack is empty?
16:20:08 <tusho> asiekierka: you can even make code execute in different directions
16:20:18 <tusho> so that it goes a different way depending on which way it hits
16:20:26 <tusho> asiekierka: no way to check for an empty stack
16:20:46 <asiekierka> So, if i output from the stack when it's empty
16:21:02 <tusho> asiekierka: undefined, I guess
16:21:15 <asiekierka> So my cyclic tag interpreter may crash
16:21:41 <asiekierka> i may make an interp for a different lang maybe
16:21:53 <tusho> just find a way around your problem
16:22:11 <tusho> asiekierka: o rly?
16:22:15 <tusho> put false on the bottom of the stack
16:22:21 <tusho> increase each other element on the stack by 1
16:22:23 <tusho> then, stack empty = if
16:22:34 <asiekierka> i could put a "EOS sign" at the bottom of the stack
16:22:37 <tusho> (This means that the maximum integer that you can put on the stack is 1 less, but who cares)
16:22:40 <tusho> asiekierka: yes, and that's the best way to do it
16:23:16 <Deewiant> asiekierka: empty stack is defined to pop 0
16:23:28 <tusho> ah, there we go then
16:23:56 <tusho> but E could appear on the stack
16:24:08 <tusho> asiekierka: best way: use a 0, then increase every other one by one
16:24:17 <tusho> then just use an E
16:26:20 <asiekierka> this is the "0" current implementation
16:26:32 <tusho> asiekierka: really cool
16:26:38 <tusho> how do you pick up languages so fast?
16:26:48 <tusho> so am i, i'm 12 :p
16:26:51 <tusho> but i could not write that with only 2 hours of befunge knowledge
16:27:20 <tusho> i can type pretty darn quickly too
16:27:24 <asiekierka> And i just look at the docs frequently
16:27:25 <tusho> dunno how that ties in with learning befunge though
16:27:37 <Deewiant> I think befunge is really simple...
16:27:47 <tusho> Deewiant: well, i couldn't write that :p
16:28:11 <asiekierka> So, as you see, the stack clean© code is done.
16:28:15 <Deewiant> tusho: well why not, what's so complicated about it :-P
16:28:27 <tusho> Deewiant: just the organization i guess
16:28:30 <tusho> i would continually have to shift it about
16:28:32 <tusho> and probably give up
16:28:56 <Deewiant> so the problem isn't befunge knowledge, it's that you're an untidy person with little patience ;-)
16:29:36 <tusho> got me down to a T there
16:29:58 <tusho> asiekierka: i find it hard to believe -that- :P
16:30:15 <asiekierka> how else could i write that piece of code
16:30:45 <tusho> asiekierka: you're hyperactive
16:32:18 <fizzie> Wahh, every time people speak about Befunge, it reminds me of the Befunge turing machine interpreter thing I wrote, syntax-highlighted with horrible HTML/CSS, and then subsequently lost.
16:32:44 <tusho> fizzie: It can't have been TC though unless it was -98
16:32:45 <Deewiant> fizzie: rewrite it from memory
16:33:17 <fizzie> tusho; The tape length was limited to the width of the funge-space, yes.
16:33:18 <Deewiant> tusho: what if it uses , and & to store/retrieve from the user's mind
16:33:25 <asiekierka> Hopefully i don't use any ascii char after "N"
16:34:38 <asiekierka> So now goes implementing 0, 1 and the stack removal stuff. Oh man, how i want to take a break from this
16:35:11 <tusho> asiekierka: but ... befunge has too many commands!
16:35:13 <Deewiant> befunge is like that, you can't stop
16:35:27 <asiekierka> tusho: but... befunge's commands are just good enough
16:35:37 <tusho> i was just copying what you said earlier asiekierka
16:35:51 <AnMaster> <tusho> AnMaster: can you believe asiekierka only decided to learn befunge two hours ago?
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16:37:23 <AnMaster> <tusho> asiekierka: no way to check for an empty stack <-- in funge-98 you could use y
16:37:43 <AnMaster> as for empty funge stack you always get 0
16:39:08 <AnMaster> asiekierka, this would probably be easier in Funge-98
16:39:24 <asiekierka> but i'm making it in funge-93 to practice it
16:39:30 <AnMaster> anyway using y is not trivial ;P
16:39:47 <AnMaster> problem is, getting the right info out of it
16:40:18 <asiekierka> Hopefully, just fixed every order stuff
16:41:03 <AnMaster> asiekierka, there is a lisp->befunge-98 compiler
16:41:09 <AnMaster> not very good an the code is slow
16:41:49 <Deewiant> http://cubonegro.orgfree.com/sponge/sponge.html
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16:42:12 * sebbu a un hérisson dans son jardin | have a hedgedog in the garden
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16:43:34 <asiekierka> But how tired i am... I must take a break. For 17 minutes.
16:44:22 <asiekierka> I.E. add stack reputting. Then just get over with it.
16:45:38 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I don't think you can fit a debugger into it as well
16:45:57 <tusho> AnMaster: he wants a befunge debugger
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16:46:23 <Deewiant> for befunge-93, RC/Funge-98 has a debugger
16:46:37 <Deewiant> if it's befunge-98 compatible (probably is), CCBI's debugger is better ;-)
16:46:55 <LinuS> do you have any news about IRC-related eso languages a part from the one found on 99bottles of beer which seem to be called IRC?
16:47:16 <LinuS> i've done one, then i realized there might be more :(
16:48:13 <asiekierka> i think he means the esolang called "IRC"
16:48:22 <LinuS> oh i see, there is also IRP
16:49:06 <AnMaster> LinuS, IRP can be *done* over IRC (as in IRC chat)
16:49:12 <LinuS> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/IRC
16:49:20 <LinuS> well mine is kind of different
16:49:34 <LinuS> it is a turing complete one that sends commands to an irc server aswell
16:49:49 <LinuS> it uses channels as functions and +b as variables
16:49:56 <LinuS> and everything is sent to the server
16:50:14 <LinuS> i've got an example but it is in italian, you should still understands commands anyway, wait a moment
16:50:41 <LinuS> http://rafb.net/p/Hcfjqb90.html
16:50:52 <tusho> LinuS: that's cool
16:51:06 <LinuS> is it? i was scared someone else already did this
16:51:36 <tusho> LinuS: it's funny, because that would be useful for both crazy ESO things and making silly little IRC bots
16:51:39 <tusho> (if you can read from the server too)
16:52:01 <LinuS> well, at the moment it just send commands
16:52:14 <LinuS> the fact is i tried to store everything on IRC
16:52:32 <LinuS> so you'd need to use +b in a channel to pass info to another process
16:52:53 <LinuS> but channels have +lk flags (used for passing parameters to functions) so that might be a problem
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16:53:15 <AnMaster> LinuS, write an interpreter for IRC maybe?
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16:54:22 <asiekierka> working on the stack recopying module of my Cyclic Tag interpreter for Befunge
16:54:28 <LinuS> AnMaster: the problem is you can't see every command, i was thinking about writing an interpreter that both: executes the command (the only main thing he does is reading variables and calling functions, and the + - / * operations) and sends it to the irc server
16:55:05 <LinuS> in the link you can see it calculating a power
16:55:08 <AnMaster> LinuS, you would to use a custom irc server to handle multiple clients, no rate limits and so on
16:55:36 <LinuS> well i can just delay the messagges and change nick/channel for every new program
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16:55:44 <AnMaster> LinuS, a normal ircd limits number of client per host
16:55:45 <LinuS> so that you can run it in every irc server
16:55:56 <LinuS> well, why do you need more then one?
16:56:10 <LinuS> rates for commands is solver by delaying every command
16:56:13 <AnMaster> LinuS, one for "op, input, output, voiced" and so on
16:56:27 <LinuS> i'm not using that!
16:56:35 <LinuS> i store variables in channel's +b
16:56:43 <LinuS> i'm not the IRC guy
16:56:45 <asiekierka> This part of code will recopy the stack from codespace to the stack, append whatever's needed, and return to the beginning
16:56:48 <LinuS> http://rafb.net/p/Hcfjqb90.html
16:56:55 <AnMaster> LinuS, number of bans are also limited
16:56:58 <asiekierka> Oh wait, i didn't check for endofcode the whole time
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16:57:16 <AnMaster> LinuS, also I can't read that language you pasted
16:57:27 <LinuS> fine, just read the examples
16:57:33 <LinuS> without taking care of the * comments
16:57:43 <LinuS> the second one is a power calculator
16:58:04 <AnMaster> ais523, formed any opinion of erlang yet?
16:58:06 <LinuS> passing the parameters via the +l and +k "spaces"
16:58:19 <ais523> AnMaster: no, I've been asleep pretty much all the time I haven't been online recently
16:58:22 <AnMaster> LinuS, hm ok, well, English comments would help (or Swedish)
16:58:29 <LinuS> i'll translate it asap
16:58:30 <ais523> also I'm not connected to the Internet when I'm not on IRC, more or less
16:58:35 <ais523> unless I'm at a cybercage
16:58:42 <ais523> although I like the typo
16:58:54 <asiekierka> that's what describes what i'm doing right now
16:59:54 <AnMaster> asiekierka, 98 would give more freedom, I mean allow you to use a lot more space
17:00:05 <AnMaster> and also make some stuff simpler
17:00:06 <ais523> asiekierka: writing a cyclic tag interp in Befunge-93?
17:00:15 <ais523> I'm not sure it's possible in general, cyclic tag's TC and Befunge-93 isn't
17:00:22 <ais523> so you're going to run out of fungespace eventually
17:00:30 <AnMaster> ais523, well no implementation is TC
17:00:40 <tusho> you forgot to greet me
17:00:54 <ais523> AnMaster: I consider an implementation to be TC if the only reason it isn't TC is the standard library erroring
17:01:02 <ais523> tusho: yes, I want to move away from a greeting race
17:01:07 <ais523> besides AnMaster won this time
17:01:08 <tusho> ais523: how dare you
17:01:27 <ais523> AnMaster: no, that's what makes it better
17:01:37 <AnMaster> ais523, also what do you mean "standard library erroring"
17:01:38 <ais523> saying hi for the sake of saying hi is so much better than saying hi for racing
17:01:41 <ais523> AnMaster: malloc failing
17:01:54 <AnMaster> the only reason no funge-98 is TC is that you run out of funge space at some point
17:01:59 <AnMaster> say 32-bit, 64-bit or whatever
17:02:04 <tusho> ais523: it's also a useful indication that #esoteric is gonna get a lot more active
17:02:06 <ais523> AnMaster: wrong, you can use the stack stack
17:02:07 <tusho> as it always does when you join
17:02:16 <AnMaster> ais523, well that will also run out
17:02:16 <ais523> to create infinite storage
17:02:27 <asiekierka> I forgot i'm using the stack for the stack reader
17:02:34 <asiekierka> So nope, all hour of my work was wasted.
17:02:34 <AnMaster> ais523, because you need to be able to put stack size in y
17:02:46 <ais523> AnMaster: ugh, Funge-98 hits the sizeof problem
17:02:59 <AnMaster> ais523, aye, you need to be able to store the size
17:03:22 <asiekierka> If anyone wants to take it, feel free too
17:03:27 <tusho> asiekierka: i'm sure you can fix it
17:03:32 <ais523> C is only TC due to file I/O, the existence of sizeof prevents anything else being TC because sizeof(void*) has to be finite
17:03:52 <AnMaster> ais523, however I think cfunge will allow larger size than funge cell if it uses 32-bit cells on a 64-bit host
17:03:56 <AnMaster> not sure what the result would be
17:04:02 <AnMaster> I don't have enough ram to test it
17:04:09 <asiekierka> forgot commands remove the stack values
17:04:46 <AnMaster> ais523, hm... sizeof is useful still
17:05:08 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway you could have a bignum funge
17:05:25 <AnMaster> nothing really forbids in in 98
17:05:32 <AnMaster> well actually there is one small issue
17:05:45 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that's good, unfortunately sizeof has to be finite in C and you have to be able to do bitwise arithmetic so that solution doesn't work there
17:05:48 <AnMaster> (number of bytes per cell, how do you say "bignum")
17:05:56 <AnMaster> (funge-108 says you should use -1 for that)
17:06:35 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, how would LONG work on a Funge with BIGNUMs?
17:06:38 <asiekierka> I just got to the point i didn't understand my own code, you know?
17:06:47 <asiekierka> Who did experience it? As in, you don't understand your code
17:06:58 <MikeRiley> LONG should use double the cell size as the size to use
17:07:15 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well with BIGNUM you could fit any value into any cell
17:07:27 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bignum
17:07:29 <asiekierka> You know, i forgot to increase the cell value
17:07:49 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, so 1 cell will always be enough for any value
17:08:40 <MikeRiley> BigNum looks like arbitary length,,,have another fingerprint for that!!!
17:08:50 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, but what if the interpreter uses Bignums for it's cells
17:08:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so a LONG with a bignum would just always push 0 for the other half of the value...
17:08:55 <MikeRiley> LONG is just integers that are double the cell size...
17:09:10 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, point is, cell size *could be bignum*
17:09:25 <MikeRiley> in which case LONG may have no application...
17:09:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how would mycology handle a bignum Funge-98 interpreter?
17:09:58 <MikeRiley> but without some way to support it,,,anybody who wrote software using LONG would not work..
17:10:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what should cell size be? ;)
17:10:13 <AnMaster> but what about cell size in 98
17:10:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well what would you recommend in y
17:10:28 <MikeRiley> the spec says any size can be used...
17:10:35 <AnMaster> Funge-108 already defines it to -1
17:10:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, won't that make mycology go spare?
17:11:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: it might say that it has to be at least 1 to make sense
17:12:31 <asiekierka> Oh god, i still don't understand my code anymore
17:13:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: looking at the code, I don't think it would say anything though
17:13:21 <asiekierka> MAAAN, i need to rewrite half of my code
17:13:25 <Deewiant> although that code is so hairy one can never be sure ;-)
17:13:34 <tusho> just think about it
17:13:37 <Deewiant> asiekierka: hey, I've written the Befunge-93 section of Mycology 4 times now
17:14:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway efunge only does 93 (and still input is broken as it always display prompt and so on)
17:14:06 <asiekierka> and so it'll copy it to the same spot over
17:14:34 <ais523> Deewiant: incidentally, Mycology isn't valid Befunge-93 because it's so large, interfunge chokes on it unless I trim it down to size by hand, and nowhere in the Befunge-93 spec does it say overlarge programs are allowed
17:14:47 <Deewiant> ais523: but neither does it say they are disallowed ;-)
17:15:02 <ais523> Deewiant: well you can't assume an interpreter disregards them, I know at least one that errors instead
17:15:32 <MikeRiley> i believe a befunge-93 interpreter should just ignore anything outside the 80x25...
17:15:34 <Deewiant> but it's easy enough to rip out the first 80*25
17:15:48 <Deewiant> or 24, I think I had a line left over ;-)
17:16:28 <Deewiant> ais523: I guess I could add a note to the readme about that
17:16:47 <tusho> asiekierka: no its not
17:16:49 <tusho> stop being hyperactive
17:16:52 <ais523> Deewiant: yes, that's what I did, I used a sed script (or possibly Perl, I can't remember) to trim it down to size
17:16:57 <tusho> asiekierka: so refactor it
17:17:00 <ais523> tusho: Befunge is quite hard to modify retroactively
17:17:10 <ais523> because often you haven't left enough space for whatever you want to add
17:17:14 <tusho> ais523: he has space.
17:17:26 <asiekierka> I do, but it's hard to restructure all the code.
17:17:44 <dogface_> A compiler from Unlambda to 80x24 Befunge.
17:19:42 <asiekierka> Hopefully i'm nearly done with fixing it, i have the snippet, now paste it in all 3 places
17:19:55 <asiekierka> the snippet as in, the part of code to add everywhere
17:20:26 <ais523> dogface_: impossible in general, Unlambda's TC and Befunge-93 isn't
17:20:45 <asiekierka> So how is it possible i'm nearly done with a Cyclic Tag implementation
17:20:57 <asiekierka> No implementation on the universe is turing complete anyway
17:21:01 <tusho> ais523: it is possible.
17:21:04 <tusho> he just has limits
17:21:15 <ais523> that's why I said "in general"
17:21:20 <AnMaster> ais523, you could fake it by connecting input to output for IO
17:21:29 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, IIRC that's how Malbolge-T works
17:21:57 <ais523> if you output character code 59048 it backs the last char of the output into the first char of the input
17:22:02 <dogface_> ais523: then the compiler should either give you the program or tell you it can't be done.
17:22:04 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway Funge-98 is turing complete then, it got file IO
17:22:05 <ais523> so doing it repeated times lets you read further back in your own output
17:22:10 <dogface_> Or else run forever, looking for a solution.
17:22:37 <ais523> AnMaster: unfortunately, not quite, as the files are limited in size and the filenames are limited in length
17:22:51 <AnMaster> ais523, well that depends on platform
17:23:17 <ais523> hmm... actually, maybe the filenames aren't limited in length
17:23:23 <ais523> although filesize is limited to the size of fungespace
17:23:51 <ais523> filenames have to be stored on the stack, and as they're 0gnirts it might be possible to get some sort of bootstrapping up where you generated ever longer filenames using ever more files to store your temporary data
17:25:26 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway assuming filesystem is infinite then you could at least make size of funge space (2^32 * 2^32 for example) * 2^32 bytes of filename (a lot of possible combinations)
17:25:34 <AnMaster> so TC "for all practical purposes"
17:25:44 <AnMaster> which I'd claim any 32-bit Funge-98 already is!
17:25:48 <ais523> I like to think about the general case, though...
17:25:59 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway Funge-93 is turing complete if you use bignums
17:26:16 <AnMaster> bignums, because that is what erlang use
17:36:44 <asiekierka> I don't remember whether my code works
17:36:54 <asiekierka> But i'll put it up because i'm tired of work on it
17:40:47 <asiekierka> AnMaster: funge space is 18446744073709551616 bytes?
17:41:12 -!- tusho has changed nick to tusho|away.
17:41:23 <ais523> most Befunge programs aren't written to use bignums and store data Minsky-machine-style though
17:42:15 <ais523> asiekierka: I'm not really in a mood to try to read it right now
17:42:21 <ais523> I'm pretty tired, for one thing
17:42:44 <ais523> I don't know, Befunge code often looks like that whether or not it's well-written
17:44:31 <AnMaster> in funge-98 negative funge space is valid
17:44:34 <ais523> 2^32 == 0 on a 32 bit system
17:44:57 <asiekierka> we still get 4611686018427387904 bytes
17:45:08 <AnMaster> it is a signed 32-bit number for each dimension
17:45:15 <ais523> asiekierka: it's known that there's a bug in calc.exe, someone found it when testing for the OMGWTF competition but forgot how to reproduce it
17:45:24 <ais523> which is annoying because now nobody knows what it is
17:45:28 <AnMaster> asiekierka, oh I got a 64-bit funge interpreter here btw
17:46:00 <asiekierka> So it's 4096 exabytes of addressible space if we don't count negative :O
17:46:19 <AnMaster> asiekierka, something like that yeah
17:46:33 <ais523> when you're up to exa vs. exbi it makes a lot of difference
17:46:50 <ais523> I'm not sure but that seems right
17:47:15 <AnMaster> asiekierka, is that still 32-bit one?
17:47:28 <asiekierka> it's the 32-bit one counting negatives
17:47:48 <AnMaster> (%i4) ( 2 ^ 32 * 2 ^ 32 ) * 4 ;
17:48:02 <AnMaster> can't get it to "4611686018427387904" at all
17:48:21 <asiekierka> since i was not counting negative numbers
17:48:58 <AnMaster> (%i6) ( ( 2 ^ 64 ) * ( 2 ^ 64 ) ) * 8 ;
17:48:58 <AnMaster> (%o6) 2722258935367507707706996859454145691648
17:49:19 <AnMaster> asiekierka, my cfunge allows it to be 64-bit at compile time
17:49:34 <AnMaster> that is compile time of interpreter
17:49:37 <asiekierka> a roleplay where... maybe uh... we're in a world where all esolangs control the universe.
17:49:48 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what is the time over there?
17:50:10 <asiekierka> I should make a am/pm->24h converter in BF or Befunge
17:50:14 <AnMaster> seems too early for being *that* silly then ;P
17:50:38 <asiekierka> Let's just play that roleplay, shall we?
17:50:50 <asiekierka> a roleplay where... maybe uh... we're in a world where all esolangs control the universe. You can "program" the universe in this world.
17:50:56 <AnMaster> read number, read 2 chars (am or pm), select depending on a or p if you just output or add 12 and then output
17:51:02 <ais523> asiekierka: sounds great
17:51:22 <ais523> I had a nightmarish thing last night where some terrorists had effectively sandboxed the universe
17:51:34 <AnMaster> I don't actually code much in esolangs, I normally code interpreters for esolangs in non-esolangs
17:51:36 <ais523> thus were capable of allowing/preventing anything they liked happening more or less
17:51:43 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I see what you mean
17:52:41 <AnMaster> ais523, would implementing intercal in a functional language be much harder than in a non-functional one?
17:52:47 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think so
17:52:53 <ais523> possibly it would even be easie
17:53:25 <AnMaster> though erlang got a parser generator called yrl
17:53:39 <ais523> AnMaster: in general functional langs can handle parsing better than imperative langs
17:53:49 <ais523> although declarative langs lead to parsers which are easier to read but slower
17:54:03 <ais523> Haskell's Parsec library is effectively declarative in the way it works
17:54:06 <AnMaster> yecc - LALR-1 Parser Generator
17:54:19 <ais523> oh and INTERCAL isn't quite LALR-1
17:54:31 <ais523> but there are a few weirdnesses with ti
17:54:31 <AnMaster> ais523, what are those? I don't know really
17:54:38 <ais523> AnMaster: parser models
17:54:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I see, yacc is LALR-1?
17:54:55 <asiekierka> Who's going to play the roleplay (i allowed real langs too), raise a hand
17:54:59 <ais523> basically LR(1) means that you can always parse the lang based on what you've seen so far and the next character
17:55:29 <AnMaster> ais523, yet you use those to parse it?
17:55:39 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, although bison also allows ELR(1) (I think that's what its called) which can parse anything but is inefficient on things that aren't LR(1)
17:55:51 <ais523> AnMaster: well, what I do is I put some of the parsing in the lexer
17:56:09 <ais523> bison sets flags which causes the lexer to lex differently
17:56:13 <AnMaster> ais523, there is no lexer generator for erlang I think
17:56:19 <ais523> and I maintain a stack of paren states by hand
17:56:35 <ais523> and that's enough to make the lang LR(1) and LALR(1) from the parser's point of view
17:56:56 <ais523> (LALR(1) is an optimisation of LR(1), which doesn't work on as many langs but is faster on the ones where it does, and is normally good enough in practice)
17:56:57 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well, I got no idea about that game
17:57:12 <AnMaster> ais523, what doesn't it work on then?
17:57:35 <ais523> AnMaster: no, the things which are LALR(1) and not LR(1) are mostly pathological
17:57:42 <ais523> whoops, got that backwards
17:57:51 <ais523> I mean the things that are LR(1) and not LALR(1) are mostly pathological
17:57:55 <ais523> AnMaster: INTERCAL is neither
17:58:00 <ais523> due to its array syntax
17:58:04 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:58:12 <ais523> in fact it isn't even LR(n) for any finite n
17:58:19 <ais523> I went and proved that and wrote a little essay about it
17:58:36 <ais523> AnMaster: lookahead amount
17:58:46 <ais523> you need infinite lookahead to parse INTERCAL's array syntax in general
17:59:10 <ais523> however there's a restriction in the spec that programmers aren't allowed to write array expressions that require more than one char lookahead to parse
17:59:17 <ais523> that was actually in the INTERCAL spec...
17:59:22 <ais523> AnMaster: LR(1) + backtracking, I think
17:59:31 <ais523> or not exactly backtracking as I think it multithreads
17:59:33 -!- asiekierka has joined.
17:59:35 <ais523> rather than backtracks
17:59:38 <ais523> but it comes to the same thing
17:59:41 <AnMaster> ok so what are these array expressions that are a problem?
17:59:57 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I won't take part in it
18:00:04 <ais523> asiekierka: I have no idea what you're going on about really, I don't see how you could easily roleplay something like that
18:00:06 -!- tusho|away has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:00:27 <ais523> asiekierka: I really don't understand what you're trying to do
18:00:44 <ais523> yes, but those traditionally work very badly
18:01:00 <ais523> you may as well make it a coderoleplay if you're doing it with programming langs
18:01:04 <ais523> and you'll end up inventing Second Life
18:01:39 <AnMaster> "k on @ SHALL only kill the current IP in concurrent Funge." or "k on @ MUST only kill the current IP in concurrent Funge."
18:02:00 <ais523> SHALL and MUST are equivalent in specs IIRC, I'm more used to SHALL
18:02:29 <ais523> they're both correct in English, MUST is heard more often in conversations
18:02:54 <ais523> SHALL has an implication of future-tense about it when said casually, although that isn't part of its meaning
18:05:08 <AnMaster> ais523, % on negative numbers is undefined in funge-98, this led to the MODU fingerprint
18:05:16 <AnMaster> should it be well defined in 108?
18:05:28 <ais523> probably, define it the same way as C99 i suggest
18:05:40 <AnMaster> well I'm not sure everyone will be happy with that
18:06:13 <ais523> because the C standardisation committee had the same problem, and whatever solution they settled on is likely to have been chosen for a good reason
18:07:45 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, % for negative numbers
18:07:48 <ais523> MikeRiley: % with negative numbers
18:08:00 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, right, question is, to what
18:08:04 <MikeRiley> even MODU was not well enough defined...
18:08:32 <MikeRiley> that is what i would select as well...
18:08:32 <AnMaster> but I need your and Deewiant's input on this
18:08:55 <MikeRiley> the C99 one makes more sense to me,,,,
18:09:54 <AnMaster> 1. Remainder by zero is subject to the same rules as division by zero. This rules take priority over rule two.
18:09:55 <AnMaster> 2. If either argument is negative, the result should be the same as in C99.
18:10:22 <ais523> incidentally, x/0 is just 0 nowadays?
18:10:37 <AnMaster> "This rule takes priority over rule two."
18:10:51 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes x/0 is 0 in Funge-98 and later
18:10:54 <ais523> I admit to rather liking the Befunge-93 ask-the-user-on-division-by-zero
18:10:58 <ais523> but it isn't very professional
18:11:11 <ais523> and Funge /looks/ like a professional esolang
18:11:15 <ais523> even though there is no such thing
18:11:18 <AnMaster> hm efunge implements "result=0"
18:11:29 <AnMaster> no idea what it does for negative numbres
18:11:43 <AnMaster> cfunge *is* C99, so it will do C99 % in that case
18:12:16 <AnMaster> ais523, even better, you could give a funny message on it in 93
18:12:52 <AnMaster> "Oops, we hit a division by zero (12/0), hm what should we use here?"
18:13:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so what about this for % in 108:
18:13:06 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> 1. Remainder by zero is subject to the same rules as division by zero. This rules take priority over rule two.
18:13:06 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> 2. If either argument is negative, the result should be the same as in C99.
18:13:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: might as well define it, I don't see why not
18:13:16 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> "This rule takes priority over rule two."
18:13:22 <Deewiant> I think C99 has it defined the wrong way
18:13:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh? what way do you prefer?
18:14:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so that the result is always positive
18:14:49 <AnMaster> ais523, me and MikeRiley are all for C99 way
18:14:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I guess this is because D does "always positive"?
18:15:04 <MikeRiley> the c99 way i think is reasonable...
18:15:11 <Deewiant> I think D is implementation-defined actually, not sure
18:15:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: in number theory, it's the convention that it's always positive
18:16:09 <ais523> Deewiant: always positive with negative first argument in number theory
18:16:17 <ais523> but number theory doesn't use a negative second argument
18:16:19 <Deewiant> in programming languages, it tends to be the same sign of the dividend/divisor
18:17:08 <AnMaster> C99 seems to bascially x%abs(y)
18:17:21 <Deewiant> in any case I'd prefer choosing the sign of the divisor over that of the dividend
18:17:26 <ais523> AnMaster: that seems wrong, surely
18:17:30 <Deewiant> i.e. the sign of y in that case
18:17:47 -!- olsner has joined.
18:19:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: is the funge frontend protocol meant to be fully textual? e.g. the integer 64 is sent as 0x36 0x34 and not 0x40
18:19:47 <ais523> AnMaster: oh dear, that certainly looks wrong to me
18:19:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: the first should be 1 IMO
18:20:02 * ais523 agrees with Deewiant, that's what it is in number theory
18:20:29 <asiekierka> oh, does anyone want to check http://rafb.net/p/w0ZNlj53.html - that befunge untested Cyclic Tag interpreter
18:20:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the protocol is fully textual yes apart from the funge space dump thing iirc
18:20:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or maybe that one too?
18:20:54 <AnMaster> anyway it is simply easier to parse
18:21:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I don't know, but in any case I think you should state this explicitly, it wasn't completely clear to me :-)
18:21:31 <Deewiant> FSPACEDUMP looks to be textual as well
18:21:44 <Deewiant> unless "as an integer" means something different
18:21:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you are actually implementing it?
18:21:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it is probably textual then
18:22:11 <Deewiant> as I was reading it and pondering
18:22:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I consider the front end protocol more or less something I don't plan to do now
18:22:44 <AnMaster> at least "put on hold from my side"
18:23:00 <asiekierka> As in, a version of befunge-93 for the c64
18:23:04 <Deewiant> then maybe I should implement it, so that I can set up a de facto standard which you need to follow when you write the spec ;-)
18:23:09 <asiekierka> For one thing, the boardsize is limited to 40x25
18:23:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but yes it is fully textual
18:23:49 <asiekierka> Another, there's a command s, to move the value that's on top of the stack to the very bottom of the stack
18:24:07 <asiekierka> and q, to remove the value from the very bottom of the stack
18:24:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well, I doubt you'd be so stupid as to do completely the opposite to every choice I'd make, so it's not a bad plan ;-)
18:24:24 <ais523> <asiekierka> Another, there's a command s, to move the value that's on top of the stack to the very bottom of the stack
18:24:28 <ais523> does that make Befunge TC?
18:24:44 <ais523> ah, yes, it does I think
18:25:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ask me if stuff is unclear please
18:25:03 <ais523> because you can reserve a special sentinel value to separate stacks
18:25:12 <ais523> and use multiple stacks as unbounded storage
18:25:21 <asiekierka> But you can only have a single 4KB stack
18:25:22 <ais523> rotating between stacks by repeatedly using s until you hit the sentinel
18:25:31 <ais523> asiekierka: well if there's a 4KB limit it isn't TC
18:25:44 <asiekierka> there's only 4KB free ram while using C64 Basic
18:25:50 <ais523> but if the stack is unbounded, which it is in Befunge-93 in theory, then it's TC with your s instructio
18:25:54 <AnMaster> asiekierka, also s is a bad thing to select
18:26:11 <AnMaster> like all other printable chars below 127 they are already in use in 98
18:26:23 <AnMaster> asiekierka, also note you should use ASCII
18:26:31 <AnMaster> because it is code point 32 that is space
18:26:39 <AnMaster> even if it doesn't look like a space on the local system
18:26:40 <asiekierka> I can put a custom charset for the c64
18:26:54 <asiekierka> you can put a custom 256-char charset on the c64
18:27:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: why is s a bad choice if he's doing Befunge-93
18:28:06 <AnMaster> asiekierka, anyway messing with the bottom of the stack will make it slow
18:28:18 <AnMaster> asiekierka, larger space is not an issue if it is unused
18:28:20 <asiekierka> Nope if i start the stack at the middle
18:28:26 <asiekierka> And just change the stack pointer value
18:28:37 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what if you need more than what you can fit on one side?
18:28:48 <AnMaster> you will need to reallocate the stack then
18:29:07 <AnMaster> wouldn't you reallocate the stack?
18:29:14 <asiekierka> but it'll make befunge64 a pain to use
18:29:45 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well start in the middle, and reallocate if you hit either edge and there is free space at the other edge
18:30:10 <ais523> asiekierka: no idea, try searching for them on the web, there's got to be one somewhere
18:30:23 -!- tusho has joined.
18:30:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: are all errors meant to be sendable from either end? RANGE and FILEERR seem like they could only come from the interpreter
18:31:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm I'd need to check that
18:31:24 <asiekierka> e - replace the last value on the stack with the current error code
18:31:36 <tusho> wish I could learn languages as fast as asiekierka :P
18:32:04 <asiekierka> want to play a freestyle irc roleplay; w/o an irc bot
18:32:14 <optbot> ais523: gimp and inkscape
18:32:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed they can probably only come from the interpreter
18:32:44 <tusho> optbot: you should be in more channels shoudln't you
18:32:44 <optbot> tusho: You should be in a quantum superposition of dancing and not dancing!
18:33:04 <AnMaster> ais523, Deewiant, by the way I got an interesting idea, *real* concurrent funge, like concurrency in erlang
18:33:17 <AnMaster> could be a pretty interesting fingerprint
18:33:28 <tusho> i guess optbot is saying that it's impossible for him to be in multiple channels like that
18:33:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and how would that work
18:34:02 <ais523> incidentally, optbot, I like the topic
18:34:02 <optbot> ais523: NAND is the only operator you ever need.
18:34:08 <Deewiant> I've thought about "real" concurrency in funge
18:34:20 <Deewiant> but it seems to me the current model is as concurrent as you can get
18:34:23 <tusho> AnMaster: asiekierka: he has operating hours of intelligence
18:34:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well distributed funge would be fun
18:34:37 <tusho> sometimes he makes perfect sense
18:34:45 <ais523> optbot: you do, don't you?
18:34:46 <optbot> ais523: how about we'll test its usefuless with the competition:
18:34:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: unless you want to have multiple threads executing in the interpreter, so that order of execution is undefined?
18:35:02 <asiekierka> optbot: No, but, what's the competition?
18:35:02 <optbot> asiekierka: nice of bc
18:35:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: as for distributed, just make your CFFI and use MPI...
18:35:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but distributed funge *sounds* fun
18:35:20 <ais523> Deewiant: strangely, Threaded INTERCAL has 'ticks' too, at least in all known implementations
18:35:36 <optbot> asiekierka: stillllll going
18:35:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what's the difference in style between erlang and MPI
18:35:44 <optbot> asiekierka: If you *insist* on doing the basic bootstrapping, you need to start with a system where you can input the individual bits yourself, and go up from there.
18:35:53 <AnMaster> but does it use shared memory=
18:35:54 <optbot> asiekierka: !glass {M[m(_e)(Emote)!"is not!"(_e)e.?]}
18:35:58 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so why'd you say "nah, erlang style" :-P
18:36:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if it uses shared memory it will be different
18:36:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, it doesn't, Message Passing Interface
18:36:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, probably similar then
18:36:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and you know... we were talking distributed
18:36:25 <Deewiant> how exactly would you run distributed using shared memory
18:36:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, to the erlang program it all seems like they run on the same node
18:36:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: or rather, one can't tell the difference
18:36:57 <Deewiant> although I think version 2 has something for finding out if they're on the same machine or not
18:37:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there are ways to find out in erlang
18:37:19 <Deewiant> but anyhoo, I think they're quite similar in style
18:37:32 <AnMaster> and even way to use a specific system
18:37:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway concurrency work the same way in erlang
18:37:53 <optbot> asiekierka: I thought that Easel, ESOapi or the like would be used for the os
18:38:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway distributed funge *sounds* fun, even if it can't be done
18:38:25 <AnMaster> it it worth thinking about imo
18:38:31 <optbot> asiekierka: The internet lacks a Guy Fawkes smiley.
18:38:38 <optbot> asiekierka: Though I use vim all the time (in the vim-emacs war, there is only one), I don't know that I would qualify it as "good" in the modern world :)
18:38:49 <optbot> asiekierka: there's just pronouns and noun genders, so i don't see how you could have less than finnish
18:38:49 <optbot> Deewiant: G'night (or morning) everyone.
18:39:03 <optbot> asiekierka: "how's t going"?
18:39:10 <optbot> asiekierka: Fuck you reader of my code
18:39:10 <AnMaster> optbot, yes emacs is better than vim!
18:39:10 <optbot> AnMaster: Passed validation
18:39:11 <optbot> Deewiant: ~exec self.raw("QUIT :Excess Flood")
18:39:18 <optbot> asiekierka: I've gotten 5 applications from them. . .
18:39:19 <optbot> asiekierka: up to you. do you want your real name in the source code of befunge interpreters? :-P
18:39:19 <optbot> asiekierka: OK I'll implement selector
18:39:20 <optbot> asiekierka: My bfgolf code is, in fact, 31 characters.
18:39:20 <optbot> asiekierka: MWAHAHAHA SOON MY CREATION IS COMPLETE
18:39:20 <optbot> asiekierka: We can add a character to be `a', and accented it becomes ``an''.
18:39:21 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> optbot, yes emacs is better than vim! <optbot> AnMaster: Passed validation
18:39:22 <optbot> AnMaster: that was just the wrong channel :P
18:39:24 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Argh..
18:39:30 <AnMaster> asiekierka, stop the spam please
18:39:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i'm still wondering where the conversation with oerjan was....
18:39:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | no please dont.
18:39:44 <AnMaster> asiekierka, stop spamming please
18:39:46 <tusho> or I will make optbot ignore you
18:39:46 <optbot> tusho: abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmnt_bot
18:39:51 <tusho> learn your goddamn limits
18:40:04 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: asiekierka was spamming
18:40:12 <tusho> asiekierka: you just don't know _when_ to stop
18:40:16 -!- MikeRiley has quit ("Leaving").
18:40:40 <tusho> "you don't know when to stop" is a statement of fact and I think after that most here will agree
18:40:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, what is team in funge? it is mentioned in y in funge-98, but I can't find any info on it
18:41:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "1 cell containing a unique team number for the current IP (ip)"
18:41:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Spelling out:.
18:41:33 * tusho will never understand why asiekierka will say I'm wrong, then I'll say why I said something, then he agrees with it (and it is always criticism of him)
18:41:43 <ais523> AnMaster: not sure, but to me it seemed to imply some sort of code-wars style competition where multiple programs were busy trying to overwrite each other, but with teammates
18:41:58 <ais523> possibly that's too fanciful, but it sounds like a great idea
18:41:59 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | The big ones are Brainfuck, Befunge and Intercal..
18:42:05 <AnMaster> ais523, "Only significant for NetFunge, BeGlad, and the like."
18:42:14 <ais523> wow, we have a meaningful topic for once
18:42:21 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that line was what got me thinking
18:42:37 <fizzie> ITYM corewars; that's the program-overwriting game.
18:42:47 <ais523> fizzie: yes, that's it
18:43:00 <ais523> there's FYB as a Brainfuck version but it's broken, it has a degenerate strategy
18:43:19 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't find any info on those
18:43:39 <tusho> ais523: i started to make BeYourFunge a while back
18:43:44 <ais523> AnMaster: esoprogramming stuff tends to disappear quickly, that's the problem
18:44:00 <AnMaster> ais523, I'll have to mail Pressy then...
18:44:04 <ais523> tusho: would probably work better than the Brainfuck version, and Befunge-93 is good as it would help to keep the playfield small
18:44:14 <tusho> AnMaster: gregorr made FYB
18:44:18 <ais523> I suggest you just use regular Befunge-93, no modifications
18:44:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that is the only mention of teams I have found, ask Chris
18:44:38 <ais523> each program is 40x25, and each program's fungespace is the other's upside-down
18:44:53 <Deewiant> I was just thinking of corewars in befunge a while ago
18:45:04 <Deewiant> don't think it would work out too well
18:45:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but is that what it is?
18:45:08 <ais523> and you win by getting the other program to execute @
18:45:20 <AnMaster> ais523, you need to disallow q then...
18:45:24 <ais523> AnMaster: basically multiple programs/processes running at the same time, trying to overwrite each other
18:45:26 <ais523> AnMaster: in Befunge-93?
18:45:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: like said, I only know what the spec says, which is to say, nothing
18:45:39 <AnMaster> ais523, if you want multiple programs on each side?
18:45:53 <Deewiant> hmm, befunge-93 instructions only might even make it meaningful
18:45:54 <ais523> AnMaster: then you'd need team numbers, presumanbly
18:46:12 <AnMaster> ais523, which means 98 or at least 93+threads
18:52:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: fatal ERRs shouldn't be responded to, right?
18:53:08 -!- Corun has joined.
18:53:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: say you get ERR MYCUSTOMERROR 1, in theory one would send "ERR UNSUPPARAM 1 what the hell kind of error is that"
18:53:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but since it's fatal anyway one it might make sense to not send anything
18:53:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so which is it? The PDF is silent :-)
18:54:06 <AnMaster> I think you should send "ERR UNSUPPARAM 1" to that then...
18:54:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no reply needed since original one is fatal
18:55:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway custom error should have been negotiated with CAP first
18:56:15 <AnMaster> also the example for error got an error
18:56:26 <AnMaster> "ERR NOMEM 1 Could not allocate memory for setting cell."
18:56:49 <AnMaster> I will put up a fixed version before I go to bed, not now in case you got more questions
18:58:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes it should have been, but there's the possibility of bugs in either frontend or interpreter
18:59:22 <AnMaster> well since it is fatal it is probably pointless to send an error back
18:59:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, of course it may not be if there is a bug in the other end ;P
18:59:52 <ais523> "All errors except those not causing immediate termination of program execution are treated as fatal.2
18:59:53 <AnMaster> so it sends fatal when it shouldn't ;P
19:00:07 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well that's its problem
19:00:11 <ais523> AnMaster: the original INTERCAL-72 manual
19:00:28 <ais523> well, my memory of it, I might have misquoted slightly
19:00:29 <AnMaster> if it wasn't intercal I would say it was a typo
19:00:46 <ais523> AnMaster: no, it's just a double negative which leads to a tautology
19:01:16 <ais523> AnMaster: a statement that is true no matter what the state of the world due to its logical structure
19:01:24 <ais523> for instance "Either the sky is blue or the sky is not blue"
19:01:52 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, unless X is NaN
19:02:44 <tusho> an example closer to home :P
19:05:27 <tusho> AnMaster: tip - if I say something you don't understand ignore me
19:07:00 <oklopol> anyone here expert on movies?
19:07:14 <oklopol> i'm kinda having a hard time searching a movie based on the outline of the plot.
19:07:17 <optbot> tusho: HARDWARE SUPPORT FOR LINKED LIST OPERATIONS.
19:07:21 <tusho> optbot: feather has that? cool
19:07:22 <optbot> tusho: I'm disappointed
19:10:04 <olsner> tusho: p(x) => p(x) for any x and p :P
19:10:36 <olsner> I mean... logical meme is logical
19:10:49 <ais523> olsner: what about p is the string "false; //" without the quotes
19:11:01 <asiekierka> optbot: What did you watch on youtube lately?
19:11:02 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:11:02 <ais523> or can I not do comment injection into tautologies?
19:11:19 <optbot> asiekierka: do you return EXIT_SUCCESS; from main() on a successful termination?
19:11:19 <Deewiant> oklopol: you can, of course, ask anyway, in case somebody knows the movie. :-P
19:11:27 <ais523> wow, EsoBot hasn't been in here for ages
19:11:29 <optbot> asiekierka: isn't it just a certain kind of corn?
19:11:38 <ais523> and E! was its command prefix IIRC
19:11:49 <tusho> ais523: the shell thing?
19:11:49 <oklopol> well, there's this monster that eats a town full of people about every 10000 years.
19:12:02 <ais523> tusho: I'm not entirely sure what it did, just Brainfuck I think
19:12:10 <tusho> ais523: no calamari's EsoBot was a shell
19:12:13 <tusho> a full virtualised system
19:12:17 <oklopol> movie starts with two women entering a town, and finding that everyone is dead
19:12:25 <oklopol> cuz, the monster has decided to eat them ofc
19:12:33 <tusho> ais523: he got rid of it because he threw a tizzy fit when we started messing with it and messing up the system
19:12:48 <oklopol> the monster looks kinda like a butterfly, and can shoot massive fireballs, apparently.
19:12:52 <ais523> tusho: what would people expect, this is #esotericc
19:12:55 <tusho> ais523: blabbing like "IT'S MEANT FOR TESTING NEW ESOLANGS!!!11" and we told him that we had perfectly good computers for that, but we liked EsoBot because it's fun to see how it can survive
19:12:56 <oklopol> you only see it once, very briefly
19:12:59 <ais523> well, without the extra c
19:13:06 <tusho> ais523: and he just whined about how we were immature and got rid of it
19:13:28 <ais523> IIRC bsmntbombdood actively encouraged people to try to hack into the computer bsmnt_bot was running on via the bot
19:13:54 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: can bsmnt_bot return?
19:13:57 <tusho> we need brainfuck and stuff
19:13:58 <tusho> and egobot is dead
19:14:09 <bsmntbombdood> tusho: i've kind of, er, lost access to the server it ran on
19:14:16 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: I have a nice server
19:14:20 <AnMaster> tusho, what happened to egobot
19:14:45 <ais523> it was open-source, though
19:14:47 <tusho> AnMaster: a while back he was in prague
19:14:49 <oklopol> Deewiant: did you know it? :)
19:14:55 <ais523> and the source is in the Esoteric Files Archive
19:15:02 <Deewiant> oklopol: maybe one of http://www.imdb.com/keyword/giant-monster/giant-insect/ ?
19:15:02 <ais523> so someone could try to resurrect it, though
19:15:02 <tusho> ais523: i'd prefer to revive bsmnt_bot, though
19:15:07 <tusho> because we can make it behave the exact same
19:15:15 <ais523> it wasn't perfect, though, someone DOSed Gregor's server using EgoBot
19:15:16 <tusho> and it has more extensibility
19:15:28 -!- Iskr has left (?).
19:15:29 <AnMaster> tusho, maybe I'd code one in erlang ;P
19:15:33 <ais523> tusho: EgoBot was extensible, I added Underload to it using Keymaker's Underload-in-Brainfuck program
19:15:40 <tusho> ais523: but not via IRC
19:15:44 <asiekierka> and also i can't really do it at fast speed
19:15:53 <AnMaster> tusho, actually hooking up a esolang server to a bot framework would be easy in erlang
19:15:58 -!- tusho has changed nick to bsmnt_bot.
19:16:02 <ais523> tusho: yes I did, I got it to load the Underload interpreter from pastebin by sending commands over IRC
19:16:04 <AnMaster> tusho, what do you think of that idea?
19:16:10 <bsmnt_bot> bsmntbombdood: if you want it back, drop this nick and gimme the source
19:16:37 <asiekierka> Also, does anyone have a shell-like utility for windows
19:16:38 <ais523> tusho: botte is nonexistent
19:16:40 <AnMaster> erlang irc bot + esolang servers
19:17:03 * bsmnt_bot sets up egobot and maybe bsmnt_bot if bsmntbombdood gives me the source
19:17:35 <asiekierka> or at least something to put an esolang bot
19:17:53 -!- lament has joined.
19:17:57 <AnMaster> a shell server should run *nix
19:18:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: haha, nice sentence in your spec
19:18:12 <Deewiant> "The identifier is used in for when activating extensions to refer to these them."
19:18:16 <lament> asiekierka: a common mistake
19:18:17 <ais523> tusho: GregorR didn't want people using the "Ego" prefix
19:18:32 -!- bsmnt_bot has changed nick to ErgoBot.
19:18:52 <ais523> what, by you or by someone else?
19:18:53 -!- ErgoBot has changed nick to IdBot.
19:18:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I'm not sure what it meant
19:19:07 <asiekierka> !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@
19:19:21 <IdBot> asiekierka: be patient
19:19:27 <AnMaster> "The identifier is used when activating extensions to refer to them."
19:19:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does that make sense?
19:19:38 <optbot> lament: me having PSOX on highlight?
19:19:48 <optbot> lament: I guess it checks hardlinks
19:19:53 <asiekierka> i do /brainfuck (code) and what i /msg to the chan i said it in is the output
19:19:55 <lament> optbot: so you have PSOX hardlinked?
19:19:55 <optbot> lament: I resubmitted it
19:19:56 <asiekierka> for example, i'll /brainfuck ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@
19:19:58 <Deewiant> AnMaster: "The identifier is used to refer to extensions when activating them."?
19:20:04 <IdBot> asiekierka shut up :P
19:20:07 <lament> optbot: ok, i'll check the mailbox
19:20:08 <optbot> lament: CPU lag/queue? you dont get your water till something else comes down the pipe...
19:20:27 <IdBot> ais523: EgoBot isn't registered
19:20:27 <lament> optbot: i know, i thought that would be an issue, but it seems to work in practice
19:20:27 <optbot> lament: Lincoln's Gettysburg Address?
19:20:30 <IdBot> shall I just call it that?
19:20:33 <IdBot> as it is just egobot
19:20:35 <IdBot> until gregorr is here
19:20:37 <lament> optbot: okay, now you're just talking nonsense
19:20:40 -!- IdBot has changed nick to EgoBot.
19:20:48 -!- EgoBot has changed nick to IdBot.
19:20:52 <IdBot> egobot itself doesn't identify
19:20:57 <ais523> this is getting confusing
19:21:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: oh, and I think protocol negotiation needs a "DONE" msg or some such from interpreter, or empty CAP
19:21:12 <IdBot> ais523: ok, I'm setting up egobot
19:21:13 -!- IdBot has changed nick to tusho.
19:21:14 <ais523> oh, I /so/ want to implement CTCP SWAPNICK now...
19:21:26 <tusho> bsmntbombdood is apparently getting the bsmnt_bot source
19:21:29 <tusho> so that will be back too
19:21:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: because it now says "may activate extensions by sending CAP"
19:21:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but the state should change to pre-run, where CAP is invalid, after that
19:22:18 <tusho> /usr/bin/ld: safe.o: relocation R_X86_64_32 against `a local symbol' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC
19:22:24 <tusho> i fucking hate ckpt
19:22:26 <bsmntbombdood> i probably won't even be able to get bsmnt_bot working again
19:22:35 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: i just need the source
19:22:40 <tusho> for it to return :P
19:22:41 <AnMaster> "If the front end doesn't want to activate any extensions, it should send an empty CAP."
19:22:49 <tusho> ais523: linux process suspend library
19:22:55 <tusho> doesnt' compile on anything
19:23:06 <ais523> "process suspend library"?
19:23:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: s/front end/frontend/
19:23:15 <asiekierka> Also, tusho, could you please add a befunge interpreter?
19:23:31 <ais523> asiekierka: no it isn't, EgoBot implemented it
19:23:41 <AnMaster> tusho, and yeah use -fpic when you compile libraries
19:23:43 <ais523> you pastebinned the Befunge and gave it a link to the pastebin
19:23:54 <tusho> AnMaster: egobot's makefile doesn't
19:23:57 <tusho> I had to edit the makefile
19:24:00 <tusho> gcc -shared -fPIC -nostartfiles -Xlinker -Bsymbolic \
19:24:01 <tusho> -o librestart.so safe.o /usr/lib/libc.a
19:24:01 <tusho> gcc -shared -fPIC -nostartfiles -Xlinker -Bsymbolic \
19:24:05 <tusho> -o librestart.so safe.o /usr/lib/libc.a
19:24:12 <AnMaster> tusho, well you'd need -fpic on x86_64
19:24:13 <tusho> gcc -shared -fPIC -nostartfiles -Xlinker -Bsymbolic \
19:24:13 <tusho> -o librestart.so safe.o /usr/lib/libc.a
19:24:26 <tusho> AnMaster: I did -fpic!!!!
19:24:27 <tusho> But it gives the same error.
19:24:35 <AnMaster> tusho, not -fPIC but -fpic yes
19:24:45 <tusho> AnMaster: SAME ERROR
19:25:14 <tusho> AnMaster: it links /usr/lib/libc.a
19:25:26 <tusho> THAT'S HOW CKPT WORKS
19:25:32 <AnMaster> tusho, err that makes no sense
19:25:38 <AnMaster> make ckpt a static library then
19:25:43 <tusho> AnMaster: i can't!
19:25:54 <tusho> i'm not some magical genie who can understand crazy code like ckpt as soon as I see it!
19:26:12 <asiekierka> Also, can you put up Frotz or something, for IF games
19:27:00 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:27:10 -!- Judofyr has joined.
19:28:15 <asiekierka> you want me to put up my own bot for that
19:28:43 <tusho> not in here it won't be
19:29:00 <tusho> do you want a spammy interactive fiction bot in here?
19:29:10 <asiekierka> it'll only work when you enable it, tusho.
19:29:10 <tusho> I was asking lament asiekierka
19:29:23 <tusho> yes, I'd so love to have a command that spams up this channel on demant
19:29:42 <tusho> I wouldn't use one
19:29:46 <tusho> I have no incentive to write/download one
19:30:03 <asiekierka> so what will it have except esolang support
19:30:27 <tusho> what egobot supported
19:30:37 <tusho> ais523: any ideas about ckpt
19:30:41 <tusho> asiekierka: i don't know. lots
19:30:58 <ais523> tusho: no, I don't know what it is
19:31:08 <tusho> ais523: cd ~tusho/egobot*/ckpt
19:31:09 <ais523> asiekierka: quite a lot of popular ones
19:31:16 <ais523> tusho: I'm in the middle of two other things atm
19:31:38 <ais523> figuring out why normish was blacklisted for spamming, and writing a technology report for Wikipedia
19:32:08 <ais523> it did at least one image-based language I think, not sure if it did piet though
19:32:29 <asiekierka> since it'd be just running a brainloller/braincopter2bf and running !bf
19:33:05 <AnMaster> that ought to work if you have multilib
19:33:22 <AnMaster> also where is the source for that library
19:34:55 <tusho> AnMaster: what is the name for the libc.a for 32 bit?
19:34:58 <tusho> if I have multilib
19:35:12 <AnMaster> tusho, it would be in /usr/lib32 probably
19:35:35 <tusho> mem.c: In function 'call_with_new_stack':
19:35:36 <tusho> mem.c:291: error: 'JB_SP' undeclared (first use in this function)
19:35:57 <AnMaster> tusho, well that is an error related to something not being declared
19:36:02 <AnMaster> you'd need to check the source
19:36:12 <tusho> AnMaster: I know C god damnit
19:36:21 <tusho> JB_SP is an internal elf/linux thing I believe
19:36:31 <tusho> /* FIXME: Looks like there are about 16 bytes on the
19:36:31 <tusho> stack that will be unwound by the return and call
19:36:32 <tusho> jbuf[0].__jmpbuf[JB_SP] = stack_base;
19:36:35 <AnMaster> tusho, what does that ckpt thing do?
19:36:41 <tusho> AnMaster: suspends processes to disk
19:36:54 <AnMaster> tusho, err, like core dumps that can be resumed?
19:37:06 <ais523> AnMaster: well emacs does that
19:37:07 <AnMaster> tusho, that sounds like what emacs does
19:37:11 <tusho> AnMaster: egobot uses it for keeping state on all the esolang interps it uses
19:37:19 <AnMaster> ais523, as I said just half a second before (from my side)
19:37:39 <ais523> well I said it about half a second before at my end, so the messages must have crossed
19:37:49 <AnMaster> tusho, what I find most interesting is that it could probably be done pretty easily and cleanly in erlang
19:38:00 <ais523> AnMaster: even more cleanly and easily in Smalltalk
19:38:06 <tusho> AnMaster: Could it survive a system crash?
19:38:14 <ais523> or Underlambda for that matter because its continuations can be written out to disk
19:38:22 <tusho> AnMaster: Yes because I have 50 servers to run egobot on
19:38:27 <AnMaster> and then restart the first node
19:38:37 <AnMaster> tusho, or you could probably suspend a erlang process to disk
19:38:48 <AnMaster> tusho, why the heck does it need to suspend state across a crash?
19:38:57 <tusho> AnMaster: I DON'T KNOW HOW EGOBOT WORKS
19:39:01 <tusho> WHY DOES EVERYONE THINK I DO
19:39:07 <ais523> AnMaster: imagine an esolang like Network Headache
19:39:08 <AnMaster> if it need permanent data, use a database
19:39:15 <tusho> AnMaster: IT USES THIRD-PARTY INTERPS
19:39:29 <ais523> AnMaster: all Network Headache programs everywhere share the same IP and variables
19:39:38 <ais523> and bits of code from all of them are run one after another
19:39:42 <ais523> AnMaster: I think so, there's an interp somewhere
19:39:55 <ais523> ofc the nature of the language is that there can only ever possibly be one interp for it
19:40:12 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Network_Headache
19:40:19 <asiekierka> you know, befunge-93 with the command s that takes the top of the stack to the bottom
19:40:37 <tusho> asiekierka: you don't need it
19:40:39 <tusho> befunge-93 is almost TC
19:40:40 <asiekierka> I just wanted to make a Robot Finds Kitten game for befunge
19:40:43 <tusho> you can implement tc
19:40:46 <tusho> tusho@rutian:~/egobot-0.12/ckpt$ find /usr/include -exec grep JB_SP {} \;
19:40:47 <tusho> tusho@rutian:~/egobot-0.12/ckpt$
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19:41:24 <AnMaster> tusho, is it elf related you said?
19:41:28 <tusho> AnMaster: setjmp related
19:41:33 <tusho> some internal thing
19:41:54 <AnMaster> tusho, it shouldn't mess in internal stuff
19:41:57 <ais523> the initials JB did remind me of setjmp
19:42:09 <tusho> AnMaster: YEAH BECAUSE SUSPENDING PROCESSES IS TRIVIAL TO DO PORTABLY RIGHT
19:42:09 <AnMaster> $ grep -R JB_SP /usr/lib/binutils/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/2.18/include/
19:42:16 <AnMaster> $ grep -R JB_SP /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/include/
19:42:31 <ais523> tusho: it is, just use Underlambda
19:42:45 <ais523> it's specified in the Underlambda specs that you can write functions out to disk and reload them from disk
19:42:49 <ais523> and a continuation is a type of function
19:42:58 -!- tusho has changed nick to IdBot.
19:43:03 -!- IdBot has changed nick to tusho.
19:43:26 <AnMaster> ais523, what about haskell then?
19:43:38 <ais523> I don't think you can do that i nHaskell
19:43:47 <ais523> or indeed in most langs
19:43:58 <ais523> most langs don't have an output-a-function command
19:44:02 <AnMaster> ais523, I think you may be able to seralize a erlang process, but not sure
19:44:02 <ais523> nor an input-a-function
19:44:36 <AnMaster> ais523, erlang certainly got "(un)seralize a term"
19:44:47 <ais523> AnMaster: and terms can be functions?
19:44:54 <ais523> does it have continuations?
19:45:06 <ais523> if you can serialise a continuation you can freeze the program
19:45:29 <ais523> continuations are like TRDS only saner
19:46:03 <AnMaster> erlang got closures I think, but continuations... no idea
19:46:34 <AnMaster> tusho, I guess JB_SP is some deprecated thing then
19:46:55 <AnMaster> /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-i386/archsetjmp.h:#define JB_SP __esp
19:46:55 <AnMaster> /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-x86_64/archsetjmp.h:#define JB_SP __rsp
19:47:33 <AnMaster> nothing in non-um arch either it seems
19:48:52 <AnMaster> tusho, doesn't really help at all
19:49:26 <ais523> wait... is it actually manipulating the individual registers on the processor?
19:49:48 <ais523> those defines are named after the stack pointer for x86 and x86_64
19:49:59 <AnMaster> /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-i386/archsetjmp.h-#define JB_IP __eip
19:49:59 <AnMaster> /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-i386/archsetjmp.h:#define JB_SP __esp
19:50:04 <AnMaster> /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-x86_64/archsetjmp.h-#define JB_IP __rip
19:50:05 <AnMaster> /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-x86_64/archsetjmp.h:#define JB_SP __rsp
19:50:19 <AnMaster> it doesn't occur outside user mode linux
19:50:42 <AnMaster> asiekierka, most likely "not at all"
19:51:14 <AnMaster> btw who owns the esolangs.org server?
19:51:38 <AnMaster> ais523, never seen that nick here
19:52:11 <ais523> AnMaster: he doesn't come here often, although he tends to respond quickly to email when I email him about a server problem
19:52:31 <AnMaster> ais523, so who can put stuff up on the file archive and such on the server?
19:52:40 <ais523> there were a few others, I think
19:52:53 <ais523> IIRC Keymaker had write access
19:53:01 <AnMaster> again someone I never heard of
19:53:03 <ais523> AnMaster: no idea, presumably they still have access
19:53:07 <asiekierka> is there any link to a ckpt website in source code
19:53:09 <ais523> AnMaster: you should have heard of Keymaker
19:53:19 <ais523> quite the prolific esolangers
19:53:37 <ais523> he wrote an Underload intepreter, and lots of other things, in Brainfuck
19:53:50 <AnMaster> tusho, maybe there is a newer version of the library?
19:54:09 <AnMaster> "This software is no longer being maintained."
19:54:22 <asiekierka> ckpt runs on Linux 2.4 and 2.6 with (or without) the NPTL thread system (but it does not checkpoint programs that use threads).
19:54:27 <asiekierka> there are notes for users of Debian woody and related version
19:54:35 <asiekierka> and users of systems with exec-shield such as Fedora Core 2
19:54:52 <asiekierka> ckpt currently does not work out of the box on systems that
19:54:59 <asiekierka> # echo 0 > /proc/sys/kernel/exec-shield-randomize
19:55:23 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you know we can read too
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19:58:37 <AnMaster> tusho, I don't think you will have much luck with ego bot
19:58:56 <tusho> I just need to find out what to define JB_SP to
19:59:08 <AnMaster> tusho, see what I pasted above then
19:59:21 <AnMaster> on 32-bit probably the rsp register
19:59:21 <tusho> that's for user mode linux
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20:02:30 <LinuS> how is you work going?
20:02:39 <LinuS> i'm not translating my language description into english
20:02:44 <LinuS> then i'll let you see
20:03:34 <LinuS> ais523: i've developed an esoteric language
20:03:45 <LinuS> but description is in italian at the moment :)
20:03:59 <ais523> well if you link it I'll see how well babelfish does on it
20:04:38 <LinuS> i'm glad you're interested :)
20:04:47 <tusho> ais523: it executes via irc servers
20:04:51 <tusho> it uses ban flags as variables
20:05:15 <LinuS> http://rafb.net/p/rgoM3S98.html
20:05:15 <ais523> arguably it uses people's mental state as variables
20:05:58 -!- Hiato has joined.
20:06:43 <LinuS> the points of the language are not storing variables in his own memory but only use IRC resources and all the commands should be valid for the IRC protocol (a client sending them to a server)
20:07:03 <ais523> looks interesting, it translated pretty well
20:07:08 <LinuS> that is, when the program is run the interpreter will "do" them into the selected irc server aswell
20:09:49 <psygnisfive> i just prefer it when your mouth is doing other things
20:09:57 <tusho> oh shut up psygnisfive
20:13:40 <dogface_> Here's an esoteric programming language: all statements are things such as "5. Statement 3 takes precedence over statement 8.", and the result of the program is a description of what takes precedence over what.
20:13:55 <tusho> dogface_: get rid of my normish account, please
20:14:23 <AnMaster> as number of bans are limited on all ircds
20:14:47 <psygnisfive> dogface: i dont think that could computer anything
20:16:09 <AnMaster> LinuS, unless you have some other form of *infinite* storage
20:16:12 <dogface_> tusho: did you somehow get one?
20:16:19 <LinuS> but isn't memory limited anyway on a pc?
20:16:21 <tusho> dogface_: I was the second user...
20:16:33 <dogface_> As far as I can tell, you don't have a user on Normish.
20:16:35 <AnMaster> LinuS, sure it is, but no implementation is TC
20:16:44 <AnMaster> but you would limit yourself more than that
20:16:56 <dogface_> Oh, a proposal to remove you more is in the works.
20:17:07 <AnMaster> unless you make a special ircd with unlimited bans of course
20:17:28 <LinuS> that's not what i want to do, it'll work on every RFC-compliant ircds
20:17:40 <AnMaster> LinuS, anyway it wouldn't be TC even in theory I think
20:18:00 <ais523> LinuS: how do you do loops?
20:18:01 <AnMaster> you need some other form of storage as well
20:18:10 <LinuS> ais523 the WHILE block
20:18:16 <LinuS> uses topic as condition
20:18:35 <LinuS> While block: TOPIC (condition) { } (there is no IF block because you can use the While one)
20:18:39 <AnMaster> tusho, how is egobot coming along?
20:18:49 <LinuS> like in the power example
20:18:52 <tusho> AnMaster: Not until I find out what to define JB_SP to.
20:19:10 <AnMaster> tusho, try the same as for um, it may work
20:19:25 <ais523> tusho: I suggest whatever the stack pointer is called in the compiler you're using
20:19:50 <LinuS> have you got any suggestions, clues?
20:19:55 <tusho> mem.c:294: error: '__esp' undeclared (first use in this function)
20:20:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: two things, firstly what do you see as the difference between events and breakpoints, secondly I think there should be events "standard/file IO happened"
20:20:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, good point about the second
20:20:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and events doesn't stop interpreter do they?
20:21:04 <AnMaster> while a break point does break
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20:21:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: the second isn't that important for the standard since you can just trace ,.&~ but for fingerprints it matters
20:21:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: okay, so how do you break on an event
20:21:51 <ais523> register int __esp asm("esp");
20:21:54 <ais523> you need to declare it first
20:22:02 <ais523> that's gcc-specific syntax for that, it seems
20:22:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: BRK in 5.7.2 (btw typo, says BRKGEN at one point) has type 5: "break from change notification"
20:22:24 <tusho> ais523: I could do register int JB_SP asm("esp")
20:22:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: which refers to an event
20:22:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I think it should say "break from event"
20:22:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: (since not all events are necessarily change notifications)
20:23:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and anyway, how does one request to stop at event FOO for instance
20:23:30 <AnMaster> indeed it needs to be expanded, as there was only one event before
20:23:34 <tusho> AnMaster: it needs libdl
20:23:38 <dogface_> tusho: can you log out so we can delete you?
20:23:38 <tusho> how can I get a 32-bit libdl?
20:23:44 <tusho> dogface_: I am not logged in.
20:23:45 <AnMaster> tusho, should be one in /lib32
20:23:51 <dogface_> tusho: don't log in again, then.
20:23:52 <ais523> tusho: yes you are, w proves it
20:24:41 <tusho> now it wants libgcc
20:24:45 <AnMaster> 00.00.0000 action An integer describing what should happen on the change being triggered:
20:24:46 <AnMaster> • 0 indicates a change notification.
20:24:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there seem to be that
20:24:59 <tusho> how can I get a 32-bit libgcc
20:25:18 <tusho> I have libgcc_s.so.1
20:25:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, every such type got a break point action it seems
20:26:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: maybe it should be a boolean and not integer, true if should break false if not (still 1 and 0 as now)
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20:26:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and maybe the CHG* should all start with EV as well as the others
20:27:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes it already does?
20:27:59 <LinuS> i've translated the language description in english, if someone's interested
20:28:21 <AnMaster> tusho, libgcc should be in /lib32 too
20:28:32 <tusho> libgcc_s.so.1 is AnMaster
20:28:36 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway gcc normally links it automatically
20:28:55 <LinuS> http://rafb.net/p/7hgQVs52.html
20:28:57 <tusho> it just says skipping incompatible /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.2.3/libgcc.a when searching for -lgcc twice
20:29:06 <AnMaster> /usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/32/libgcc.a
20:29:07 <tusho> gcc -Xlinker --script=restart.script -o restart restart.o mem.o util.o uri.o remote.o sockaddr.o wrapsafe.o elfrestart.o -ldl -L/usr/lib32
20:29:09 <AnMaster> /usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/libgcc.a
20:29:24 <AnMaster> tusho, I guess something like that?
20:29:36 <tusho> i do not have a 32 bit libgcc.a AnMaster!!!
20:29:50 <AnMaster> /usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/32/libgcc.a
20:29:58 <AnMaster> tusho, it may be somewhere else on your system
20:30:10 <AnMaster> it may be in a totally different place
20:30:21 <AnMaster> /usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/4.3.1/libgcc.a
20:30:33 <tusho> gcc -Xlinker --script=restart.script -o restart restart.o mem.o util.o uri.o remote.o sockaddr.o wrapsafe.o elfrestart.o -ldl -L/usr/lib32 -L/usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.2.3/32/lib
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20:30:47 <AnMaster> it was just a case of changing compiler version
20:31:23 <LinuS> let me also know if you notice some bad english
20:31:42 <AnMaster> tusho, you need -m32 for *all* calls to gcc
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20:32:51 <AnMaster> *Quits returning the 1 value (ok) to the system
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20:33:20 <LinuS> i believe this one will unmatch more
20:33:20 <LinuS> QUIT "Now this is a nice language!"
20:33:22 <AnMaster> LinuS, on Linux and also all other systems except VMS that I know about 0 is normal exit and 1 is bad
20:33:33 <AnMaster> if you mean exit code of program
20:33:41 <LinuS> yes, i forgot them
20:33:49 <AnMaster> LinuS, I think VMS however uses 1 for OK and 0 for bad
20:34:02 <AnMaster> may have been some other platform
20:34:04 <LinuS> i wanted to write 0, it was a "typo"
20:34:12 <LinuS> what about returning a string to the system?
20:34:26 <AnMaster> LinuS, well depends on what you want
20:34:39 <AnMaster> you could print it out at the end I guess
20:34:53 <AnMaster> or you could send a quit message on irc
20:35:22 <LinuS> yeah i'll threat the quit message as a comment, but i'll still send it to IRC
20:35:23 <AnMaster> $ true; echo $?; false; echo $?
20:35:38 <ais523> AnMaster: was that on VMS?
20:35:49 <ais523> and actually VMS uses odd for success, even for failed
20:36:00 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah I said it was reversed
20:36:14 <ais523> AnMaster: well it has more than one success code
20:36:28 <ais523> and the C stdlib does weird stuff to translate exit codes
20:36:48 <AnMaster> ais523, there is some #defines for "bad" and "good" exits iirc
20:36:57 <ais523> EXIT_SUCCESS and EXIT_FAILURE
20:37:00 <ais523> EXIT_SUCCESS is always 0
20:37:05 <ais523> EXIT_FAILURE can vary though
20:37:08 <AnMaster> (oh btw, I should have known you knew about weird systems!)
20:37:16 <AnMaster> ais523, aren't they flipped on VMS then?
20:37:16 <ais523> on VMS EXIT_SUCCESS is 0 and EXIT_FAILURE is some random large even number, I think
20:37:29 <ais523> and exit() and return from main swap 0 and some random large odd number
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20:37:39 <ais523> and all other numbers are preserved unchanged
20:37:44 <ais523> the C standard allows that behaviour
20:38:04 <ais523> and that's why you can use 0 for successful exit but on non-posix should use EXIT_FAILURE for failed exit
20:38:12 <ais523> (on posix you can use any non-zero for failed)
20:38:28 <AnMaster> ais523, well... why is there EXIT_SUCCESS at all then?
20:38:40 <LinuS> now that i'm thinking
20:38:50 <LinuS> my language is interpreted
20:39:00 <LinuS> so well, i can't actually return anything to the system
20:39:03 <LinuS> just to the interpreter
20:39:17 <AnMaster> LinuS, which can then return it to the system if it wants
20:39:49 <LinuS> oh well, i'll think i'll just display the quit messagges on the interpreter console
20:39:56 <fizzie> Actually EXIT_SUCCESS need not be 0; the standard says that you can signal a successful termination using either zero or EXIT_SUCCESS; so 0 always works, but EXIT_SUCCESS might be something else.
20:40:26 <ais523> fizzie: ah yes, that's it, I don't think there were any implementations that had it non-zero though
20:40:28 <AnMaster> ah well our other standard expert (fizzie)
20:41:07 <fizzie> I can't really think of any very sensible reasons to #define it non-zero, since they must anyway handle the 0 case.
20:41:15 <AnMaster> anyway if someone ever need to ask about a weird system, just ask ais523, if it was made after 72, there is a good chance he know about it
20:41:27 <ais523> even before, on occasion
20:41:37 <ais523> after all Baudot was invented in the 1800s
20:41:55 <ais523> I only know Baudot from INTERCAL, though
20:42:15 <ais523> unlike most langs which are being updated to progressively newer technologies, INTERCAL is updated to progressively older technologies
20:42:40 <LinuS> well, have you got other clues or suggestions?
20:43:11 <LinuS> seems like this is the only place in which i can talk about this, other people tend not to understand me or tells me to stop wasting my time :p
20:43:23 <dogface_> Does INTERCAL have any instructions for operating a Babbage analytical engine?
20:43:34 <AnMaster> LinuS, not really my type of language
20:43:57 <LinuS> why? is it too "simple"?
20:44:16 <ais523> dogface_: not yet, but patches are welcome
20:48:41 <AnMaster> LinuS, I'm more into languages like befunge and such
20:49:30 <tusho> egobot's compilin'
20:49:46 <tusho> ais523: i had to fuck about with ckpt's makefile a lot
20:49:49 <tusho> hopefully it works
20:49:59 <ais523> LinuS: it reminds me of my study into incidental programmability
20:50:03 <tusho> I installed jikes-classpath
20:50:08 <tusho> but it still can't do it
20:50:09 <ais523> like when I wrote noughts-and-crosses in Paint
20:50:11 <tusho> *** Semantic Error: You need to modify your classpath, sourcepath, bootclasspath, and/or extdirs setup. Jikes could not find package "java.lang" in:
20:50:26 <ais523> I thought it was written in C
20:50:30 <tusho> ais523: remember, egobot uses third-party interps
20:50:34 <tusho> so it compiles them all
20:50:38 <LinuS> uhm ais523, you mean using piet?
20:50:43 <tusho> C with Classes, in this case
20:50:46 <tusho> C with Classes badly, really
20:50:49 <ais523> using the floodfill tool
20:50:49 <LinuS> or how did you write that on paint?
20:51:06 <tusho> cd lazyk ; g++ -O2 -g lazy.cpp -o lazyk
20:51:06 <tusho> lazy.cpp:66: error: 'operator new' takes type 'size_t' ('long unsigned int') as first parameter
20:51:12 <ais523> I rigged it up so that you could click with floodfill on various places
20:51:15 <tusho> static void* operator new(unsigned) {
20:51:26 <ais523> and it would mark your and its rules onto the board
20:51:37 <ais523> but it always went first
20:51:38 <tusho> ais523: i want that
20:51:42 <tusho> ghc -O --make Main -o rhotor-hi
20:51:42 <tusho> ./build.sh: 4: ghc: not found
20:51:46 <tusho> egobot depends on ghc ahahahaha
20:51:48 <ais523> tusho: I've sent it to you before
20:51:53 <LinuS> lol that's really kewl
20:52:09 <ais523> I also did noughts-and-crosses in the Windows 3.1 help system
20:52:15 <ais523> by using lots and lots of hyperlinks
20:52:21 <ais523> and automatically generating all the possible grids
20:52:34 <LinuS> i don't know it, is it different from html pages?
20:52:36 <ais523> winhelp was great, it had variables and everything
20:52:42 <ais523> and it was a bit different
20:52:50 <tusho> GreaseMonkey has made a third account
20:53:06 <ais523> it took Word documents as input
20:53:08 <tusho> can't he remember a goddamn password
20:53:13 <ais523> and you specified commands using foornotes
20:53:18 <tusho> however [[If you find some archaic license on any of these languages, disregard it. I don't care what you do with it anymore. I'd like to see it simply used as it should be. I am cleaning up all the licence crap now. --Ben Russell 05:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC) ]]
20:53:18 <ais523> it was quite esoteric, really
20:53:22 <tusho> so no more "Oerjan fucked with it" I guess
20:53:43 <ais523> it's the only programming lang I've ever come across which used a rich-text source
20:54:03 <ais523> section breaks to separate pages, and footnotes for things like onload scripts
20:54:09 <ais523> you did links using underlines and hidden text
20:54:12 <tusho> !!! EGOBOT JUST COMPILED !!!
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20:55:43 <tusho> now to figure out the arcane netcat construction it uses
20:56:09 <ais523> netcat? What lang is EgoBot written in anyway (the core, not the third-party interps)?
20:56:36 -!- IdBot has joined.
20:57:05 -!- IdBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:57:27 -!- IdBot has joined.
20:57:42 <ais523> tusho: is the command prefix ! by default?
20:57:47 <tusho> ais523: it isn't configurable
20:57:53 -!- IdBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:58:00 <LinuS> what should the bot do?
20:58:02 <dogface_> How did you get it to be IdBot?
20:58:06 <ais523> LinuS: interpret esolangs
20:58:10 <tusho> :tusho!n=ehird@91.105.83.185 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help
20:58:12 <ais523> EgoBot used to be a major feature of this channel
20:58:26 <ais523> I remember when I got 3 of the bots here to form an infinite loop
20:58:28 <LinuS> interpret esolangs? how many? :O
20:58:30 <ais523> of sending commands to each other
20:58:47 <LinuS> oh my god, wonderful
20:58:48 <ais523> dogface_: I won at my end
20:58:55 <tusho> ais523 beat dogface_ though
20:58:56 * LinuS 's autojoining the channel
20:58:58 <ais523> we'll just have to check the logs, I suppose
20:59:06 <ais523> at least both of you think I beat the other
20:59:15 <ais523> dogface_ beat tusho over here
20:59:50 <tusho> I bet it's that pesky ckpt, ais523
20:59:59 <dogface_> oklopol: fourth place isn't bad.
21:00:15 <optbot> ais523: tusho, there are 12-year-olds in here.
21:00:15 <tusho> I need to compile them all as 32 bit don't I
21:00:21 <optbot> ais523: It's BIZARRO ESOTERIC
21:00:35 <oklopol> tusho: please comment on my joke so i can repeat it!
21:00:40 <tusho> oklopol: no, I'm busy
21:00:42 <ais523> * kicks optbot (trolling)
21:00:42 <optbot> ais523: Is this transferrable? If I get aard to worship me, will your aard worships be transferred to me too?
21:00:58 <tusho> ais523: that's from 2002
21:01:03 <tusho> reading fizzie's logs
21:01:11 <ais523> what were they talking about in 2002?
21:01:14 <tusho> aard of course refers to H. Founder and FALSE creator
21:01:21 <tusho> ais523: how much the channel was dead.
21:01:28 <ais523> well it isn't dead nowadays
21:01:32 <tusho> ais523: and Life In Genearl
21:01:34 <ais523> it's been going strong for several years now
21:01:35 <tusho> so no, not just esolangs
21:01:37 <dogface_> Does "H." mean he's a player of Agora?
21:01:42 <tusho> dogface_: No, it means he's Honorable.
21:03:07 <dogface_> Okay, what would the little tune in this comic sound like: http://www.theclassm.com/d/19990826.html
21:04:53 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:08:06 <tusho> Egobot is segfaulting.
21:08:09 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: ping
21:08:19 <ais523> tusho: as it probably would be if you were messing around with the stack, like it sounds like it does
21:08:27 <tusho> ais523: I got rid of ckpt,.
21:12:03 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: want bsmnt_bot.
21:18:17 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: plzz0r
21:20:15 <dogface_> bsmnt_bot-like thing is coming.
21:21:10 <tusho> I asked for bsmnt_bot.
21:21:12 <tusho> From bsmntbombdood.
21:21:33 <tusho> dogface_: bsmnt_bot executed arbitary python and that's how we added esolangs.
21:21:36 <tusho> Are you going to go and sandbox it?
21:21:45 <tusho> Have fun with that. I think asking bsmntbombdood for it will be quicker.
21:21:47 <tusho> He replied earlier.
21:21:59 <ais523> tusho: e chrooted it, I think
21:22:32 <tusho> ais523: Yes. ihope seems to be reimplementing bsmnt_bot on the spot.
21:22:42 <tusho> Either I'll have it from bsmntbombdood way before he's done,
21:22:52 <tusho> or it'll be incredibly insecure and I can wipe ihope's system with one line on IRC,
21:22:56 <tusho> or it won't be extensible
21:23:08 <tusho> (and thus the list of esolangs will be restricted)
21:23:17 <tusho> (whereas it was one of the best things about bsmnt_bot)
21:23:18 <ais523> dogface_: seriously, don't put something there that allows your computer to be wiped with one line of IRC
21:23:21 <tusho> dogface_: Then it's not "bsmnt_bot".
21:23:23 <ais523> or someone here will probably do it
21:23:24 <tusho> It's "a random IRC bot".
21:23:26 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:23:30 <dogface_> Well, it will be extensible, I guess.
21:23:38 <tusho> dogface_: With Python code to add a handler?
21:23:41 <tusho> Hope you secure that well.
21:23:50 <ais523> what would be amusing would be if you hacked into tusho's computer and got it to run there, then tusho wiped eir own computer with one line of IRC
21:23:57 <ais523> but I doubt that will ahppen
21:24:04 -!- Judofyr has joined.
21:24:06 <dogface_> Actually, that's exactly what I'm planning.
21:24:08 <tusho> ais523: Like I run things as high-privileged users.
21:25:28 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: ping
21:27:50 <dogface_> My bot wouldn't be nearly as good as bsmnt_bot.
21:28:04 <dogface_> I don't suppose anyone other than me has a copy of it handy.
21:28:20 <tusho> You have bsmnt_bot?
21:28:22 <tusho> Well, then give me it!
21:28:32 <tusho> I -have- been trying to get it from bsmntbombdood for hours...
21:29:48 <dogface_> Just want about three... no, five moments.
21:30:29 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: let me butt your sex
21:33:31 <oklopol> dogface_: the comic opened!
21:33:45 <oklopol> not that i have any idea what you asked about it
21:34:21 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: gimme
21:34:35 <tusho> it's just one file of python, sheesh
21:35:12 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: is it a trade secret or something
21:35:16 <tusho> I mean I downloaded it on the other box
21:35:18 <tusho> I COULD go and get it
21:35:21 <tusho> but that would be annoying
21:35:36 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: it's a chroot running one file of python.
21:35:41 <dogface_> oklopol: I asked what that tune would sound like?
21:35:43 <tusho> I know, blahbot` ran on it.
21:36:05 <oklopol> dogface_: 0.330.3.7.523.0. assuming the fifth note is 1/4 in length
21:36:10 <oklopol> looks like 1/2, but that makes less sense.
21:36:28 <dogface_> tusho: wait one moment and ask again.
21:36:34 <tusho> dogface_: (one moment) bsmnt_bot please.
21:37:01 <dogface_> tusho: did you wait one moment?
21:37:04 -!- tusho has left (?).
21:37:07 -!- tusho has joined.
21:38:10 <dogface_> File with bsmnt is not existed. Sorry.
21:38:26 <oklopol> basically we have the rhythm theme |.|||.|., repeated two times, first time going up, then back down, jumps around in thirds, first and second third from 0 to 3, then we quickly play 7, and come back down with thirds again
21:38:35 <ais523> dogface_: what generates that sort of error?
21:38:45 <tusho> ais523: ihope-speecherizer.
21:38:59 <ais523> it sounds like the sort of thing INTERCAL would come up with if it did file I/O
21:39:11 <tusho> if i turned off nicks on irc, I could still distinguish oklopol, ais523, psygnisfive and ihope.
21:39:22 <dogface_> How do you turn off nicks on irc?
21:39:23 <ais523> as a change from the normal snarky message there's at least one with broken English instead
21:39:31 <tusho> dogface_: Remove them from my template.
21:39:49 <tusho> psygnisfive is also trivial as we can see
21:39:53 <ais523> tusho: there are others who are easily distinguishable too
21:39:57 <tusho> and I've talked to ais523 that i can easily detect him
21:39:57 <dogface_> I think I have a distinctive habit of using both capital letters and periods.
21:40:06 <psygnisfive> where are my pictures of you in boyscout short shorts?
21:40:09 <oklopol> psygnisfive: that was ages ago, but it was okay
21:40:10 <tusho> I wouldn't be able to distinguish fizzie and lament
21:40:14 <oklopol> except for this one retarded kid
21:40:19 <tusho> I could distinguish AnMaster
21:40:22 <tusho> probably not Deewiant
21:40:29 <ais523> dogface_: I do sometimes, but normally I adhere to the IRC custom of no full stop at the end of a line nor capital letter at the start of a line.
21:40:45 <ais523> sometimes I write two sentences on a line. When I do it looks like this, which is strange
21:41:02 <tusho> AnMaster: talking about who we could distinguish on IRC if we didn't display nicknames
21:41:05 <ais523> AnMaster: we were discussing how to tell who said what when nicks were turned off
21:41:10 <tusho> ais523: I type like this. sometimes like this
21:41:13 <tusho> Occasionally, even like this.
21:41:20 <ais523> tusho: could you recognise optbot, do you think?
21:41:21 <optbot> ais523: although the numbers are sometimes different
21:41:31 <tusho> sometimes even like this, and i sometimes even say I although generally i go back to I sometime in the sentence if i do that
21:41:46 <tusho> if im very lazy ill abstain from all punctuation whatsoever
21:41:58 <ais523> nah, I normally leave apostrophes in except for typos
21:42:05 <ais523> and I use commas and semicolons more than other people
21:42:08 <tusho> most importantly, though, my typing style adapts to those who are around me.
21:42:10 <oklopol> i like to write long obscure messages
21:42:14 <tusho> if someone types a certain way, I do too after a while
21:42:17 <tusho> until I'm comfortable with them
21:42:21 <tusho> when I pick up my own style of the momen
21:42:24 <ais523> Sgeo would be easy too, you look for who types about nomic and PSOX
21:42:24 <oklopol> ^ not an example of which, sadly
21:42:41 <tusho> oklopol has a habit of being crazily concise
21:42:51 <tusho> and packing loads of info along with loads of punctuation diagrams into one message
21:43:02 <tusho> that while incredibly comprehensive are hard to read
21:43:14 <tusho> ais523: asaufabcaufonasuchg
21:43:15 <AnMaster> tusho, I could pick out MikeReily anywhere
21:43:22 <dogface_> I want to be incredibly consise.
21:43:22 <tusho> AnMaster: i couldn't,,,,ehehehehhee...
21:43:29 <lament> pretty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ecliptic_path.jpg
21:43:44 <tusho> dogface_: so do I, I think it's an acquired skill
21:43:46 <ais523> and thanks for linking the image correctly
21:43:46 <tusho> oklopol is the only one who
21:43:51 <tusho> consistently manages to do it in here
21:43:54 <AnMaster> tusho, how would you pick me out?
21:44:12 <tusho> AnMaster: general awkward sentence structure :P
21:44:27 <ais523> AnMaster: not exactly, it's just nonidiomatic
21:44:30 <tusho> your english is very good
21:44:35 <tusho> just non-idiomatic, like ais523 said :P
21:44:37 <ais523> you tend to use different constructions from native English people
21:45:06 <oklopol> AnMaster: tusho, I got bad English? <<< intended to make a joke? :D
21:45:08 <tusho> psygnisfive: 'the standard got some issues'
21:45:12 <tusho> oklopol: i hope so :)
21:45:12 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, general issue of saying "got" instead of "have"
21:45:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes it was so this time
21:45:37 <tusho> has got some issues
21:45:37 <AnMaster> and I don't have why I say got instead
21:45:40 <tusho> even then it's still awkawrd
21:45:53 <tusho> 'have got' is grating
21:46:35 <ais523> I tend to typo a lot but I also tend to correct it before sending it to IRC
21:46:38 <ais523> unless the typo is particularly amusing
21:46:43 <psygnisfive> infact, i dare say that saying "have" in such situations would sound quite awkward in american english
21:46:52 <tusho> ais523: navigating in single-line text is my enemy
21:46:59 <tusho> because while I hate using the keyboard to pinpoint an error a while back,
21:47:03 <ais523> tusho: I correct immediately after typing the typo
21:47:03 <tusho> i can't use the mouse for such a small thing
21:47:08 <oklopol> psygnisfive: tusho's point exactly
21:47:09 <tusho> ais523: I don't notice, often
21:47:16 <AnMaster> <tusho> ais523: navigating in single-line text is my enemy <-- eh?
21:47:16 <tusho> however, I often type 'm', backspace then 'o'
21:47:17 <ais523> tusho: get used to control-arrow if you want to do single-line navigation
21:47:21 <tusho> I start off the first two or so letters rwong
21:47:23 <psygnisfive> oklopol: actually the opposite of his point, which was that "Got" is awkward
21:47:30 <psygnisfive> whereas i mean to say "have" would be awkward
21:47:46 <tusho> psygnisfive: weird?
21:47:48 <oklopol> psygnisfive: my point exactly!
21:47:50 <ais523> is control on a Mac like Super on Linux
21:47:59 <ais523> as in, hardly ever used except by a few dedicated programs?
21:48:03 <oklopol> i have a hard time following the ways of the world atm :D
21:48:06 <AnMaster> but I'm on too many IRC channels
21:48:15 <AnMaster> where American English is used
21:48:20 <oklopol> you're exceeding my reading speed.
21:48:20 <psygnisfive> but this is a difference between american english and british english
21:48:25 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm British but normally end up typing in a weird mix of British and American
21:48:41 <psygnisfive> british english uses "to have" more extensively than american english
21:48:59 <AnMaster> ais523, I also end up with a mix, I try to make a point of using ou instead of o in colour and such, but I often end up using z instead of s
21:49:08 <psygnisfive> "I'm sorry, I haven't got a clue" is more appropriate
21:49:12 <ais523> I've ended up using both color and colour in the same sentence before
21:49:19 <psygnisfive> american english much prefers "have got" to "have"
21:49:39 <psygnisfive> in american english, it seems "have" is become just an indicator of perfective aspect
21:49:52 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I have a car or I got a car?
21:50:01 <ais523> I have a car is correct English
21:50:08 <ais523> but I don't have one either
21:50:18 <ais523> tusho: I've programmed in too many langs that spell it color
21:50:22 <psygnisfive> but the second would have to be "i've got a car"
21:50:26 <AnMaster> well I don't say colour or color, I say färg
21:50:28 <ais523> although refreshingly Allegro uses British English
21:50:48 <tusho> ais523: I bet gecko aliases colour->color
21:50:51 <tusho> because it must be pretty common
21:51:08 <ais523> actually I think Allegro has #defines for American spellings
21:51:09 <tusho> i kind of dislike that though
21:51:11 <tusho> since it won't work in anything else
21:51:12 <ais523> but the british ones are used internally
21:51:15 <tusho> it's just promoting a habit that doesn't exist
21:51:17 <dogface_> American English prefers "have got" to plain old "have"?
21:51:19 <tusho> because before they implemented that
21:51:20 <tusho> nobody would use it
21:51:22 <AnMaster> reminds me of mysql ANALYSE vs. ANALYZE
21:51:22 <tusho> beacuse it wouldn't work
21:51:26 <dogface_> I thought that was British English that did that.
21:51:26 <psygnisfive> tusho: did you know that colour->color spelling changes were actually intentionally introduced by Webster with the intent of making a distinctly american dialect?
21:51:48 <ais523> AnMaster: that was just awful, I haven't told them yet, I wonder if anyone else has noticed?
21:51:50 <oklopol> dogface_: i'd say they prefer "'ve got".
21:51:55 <psygnisfive> dogface_: all i know is, there seem to be many cases where "have" is unacceptable for possession
21:52:05 <oklopol> "'ve" is a separate verb in american english, clearly
21:52:25 <ais523> just like "was like" is a separate verb in modern English teenage slang, and one that sounds terrible
21:52:29 <psygnisfive> its either a verbal clitic, or something else
21:52:35 <ais523> AnMaster: made a famous dictionary
21:52:40 <lament> i know what program i want to write!
21:52:47 <tusho> ais523: when I was younger I despised teenage slang
21:52:52 <lament> a curses-based constellation map!
21:52:52 <tusho> somehow "dude" has creeped into my vocabulary
21:52:57 <ais523> tusho: do you still despise it?
21:53:01 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway how are my sentences non-ideomatic?
21:53:03 <dogface_> psygnisfive: can you give an example?
21:53:04 <ais523> and "dude" is outdated teenage slang
21:53:13 <tusho> ais523: true, it should be homie
21:53:25 <tusho> i mostly use it as "dude..." though
21:53:25 <dogface_> psygnisfive: a case where "have" is unacceptable for possession.
21:53:28 <tusho> as in a "i cannot believe this"
21:53:37 <ais523> AnMaster: looking up, you have more of a tendency than other people to write noun phrases as a line by themselves
21:54:00 <ais523> <AnMaster> tusho, well any other ways?
21:54:06 <AnMaster> ais523, eh? You mean breaking the line in the middle on irc, that is because otherwise I can't keep up
21:54:09 <ais523> that's one example of non-idiomaticness
21:54:09 <dogface_> ais523 said "made a famous dictionary" without a subject to it.
21:54:10 <oklopol> dogface_: no one says "i have a car", you say "i's like a car and shit"
21:54:14 <psygnisfive> dogface_: i gave examples above. as i said, "the standard has some problems" sounds more akward than "the standard's got some problems"
21:54:24 <ais523> AnMaster: I mean without the rest of the sentence
21:54:28 <AnMaster> ais523, <ais523> <AnMaster> tusho, well any other ways? <-- what would a native say?
21:54:32 <ais523> dogface_: that's a verb phrase
21:54:37 <tusho> AnMaster: "any other ways?" :P
21:54:38 <psygnisfive> tho its not completely awkward. but "got" sounds more natural to me
21:54:48 <ais523> "are there any other ways" or just "any other ways"
21:54:56 <AnMaster> tusho, you mean just drop the "well"?
21:54:56 <ais523> "well" without a comma at the start of a sentence is strange
21:54:59 <dogface_> psygnisfive: I guess I have little preferece.
21:55:07 <ais523> even "well, any other ways" would be more common
21:55:17 <tusho> oh, and people hate me on irc
21:55:18 <psygnisfive> dogface_: maybe. anyway, obviously tusho's dialect forbids "got"
21:55:21 <ais523> but I don't see "well" written that often at the start of a sentence nowadays
21:55:22 <tusho> because I do stream-of-conciousness lines
21:55:42 <tusho> I think it stems from an urge I've always had to beat people giving incorrect information
21:55:44 <AnMaster> tusho, and I do such lines too sometimes
21:55:47 <tusho> so I try and get it in before that
21:55:50 <tusho> subconcious now though
21:55:59 <ais523> I wonder what the record for keeping up a stream of conciousness is on IRC?
21:56:04 <dogface_> "Excuse me, have you got a . . ." seems pretty British.
21:56:11 <ais523> I imagine there are some people who can keep one going for hours
21:56:12 <oklopol> i usually start my sentences with "err"
21:56:18 <ais523> regardless of what goes on in the rest of the channel
21:56:20 <psygnisfive> dogface_: yes but thats a different reason
21:56:20 <dogface_> ais523: me, at 45 lines unbroken?
21:56:23 <tusho> ais523: well, I planned this sentence in advance
21:56:28 <tusho> and now I am writing this one on the spot
21:56:34 <ais523> dogface_: when did you do that?
21:56:42 <oklopol> by this i *always* mean to imply anything other people may have said earlier is wrong, and erroneous
21:56:44 <dogface_> ais523: the first time or the second? :-P
21:56:51 <tusho> also, whenever I look at my irc client I always find myself having loads
21:56:55 <tusho> of lines just by me
21:56:56 <psygnisfive> so theres clearly some other stuff going on beyond just got-have alternation
21:56:57 <tusho> and like 2-3 of others
21:56:58 <ais523> my record is 10 or so, I think
21:56:59 <tusho> and it makes me feel weird
21:57:01 <dogface_> Why don't I just give a demonstration? :-)
21:57:10 <ais523> telling the channel about a new esolang even though nobody was listening
21:57:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, I use "err" to mark "wtf" or "hey, wait, that..."
21:57:26 <ais523> dogface_: because the chance of getting the rest of #esoteric to shut up while you do it is quite low at the moment
21:57:57 <oklopol> tusho: i've filled pages with just myself even writing slow and long lines.
21:58:01 <AnMaster> ais523, any other non-idiomatic examples from me?
21:58:12 <tusho> in fact I think I'll do that
21:58:16 <tusho> iwthout the slow and long bit
21:58:20 <tusho> I mean I am just so awesome, right?
21:58:26 <tusho> new esolang ideas...
21:58:29 <tusho> well, something involving TRDS
21:58:33 <tusho> I always thought that could work well standalone
21:58:34 <oklopol> the key is to speak about something no one cares about, just obscurely enough that people don't ask me what the fuck i'm talking about
21:58:38 <tusho> BF+TRDS isn't very interesting...
21:58:45 <dogface_> oklopol: that's what I do all the time.
21:59:05 <AnMaster> ais523, what languages apart from English do you know?
21:59:12 <dogface_> Have you ever heard me talk about alternative tunings in #music?
21:59:14 <oklopol> 23:57… AnMaster: oklopol, I use "err" to mark "wtf" or "hey, wait, that..." <<< yes, so do i, forgot my joke tag
21:59:27 <tusho> AnMaster: well, I know C
21:59:31 <ais523> AnMaster: just English, I have a GCSE in Latin but that isn't really enough to "know" it
21:59:39 <ais523> and lots of programming langs of course
21:59:45 <tusho> oh you mean natural languages
21:59:49 <tusho> nope, I have/got nothing
21:59:58 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
22:00:03 <tusho> ais523: i was making a joke
22:00:19 <ais523> I thought it would be funny to correct you for once rather than AnMaster
22:00:36 <oklopol> 23:55… AnMaster: tusho, and I do such lines too sometimes <<< i'd say "doing" lines is non-idiomatic
22:00:58 <oklopol> unless you're rehearsing for a play or somehting
22:01:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, um, I consider line a first class object with the operator do ;P
22:01:26 <oklopol> AnMaster: well i'd use that too, but i don't usually care if i'm non-idiomatic, just sharing my feelings.
22:03:22 <oklopol> psygnisfive: the act of eating
22:04:10 <oklopol> oh! right! thank you language wizard!
22:05:23 <AnMaster> eatance is obviously the "essence" of performing eating
22:05:45 <psygnisfive> "essence" is already the essence of eating :)
22:06:40 <oklopol> "das essen" is the essence of eating in german. :)
22:06:56 <psygnisfive> essen means eating in german. or something.
22:07:19 <oklopol> essen = eat, fressen = eat if you're an animal, messen = measure
22:07:54 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire...").
22:07:56 <olsner> das essen = the eating?
22:08:15 <AnMaster> olsner, sounds like a movie tittle
22:08:24 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, c is rather rare in Swedish
22:08:52 <AnMaster> as we don't have -ing form really
22:09:17 <olsner> no, but I think it corresponds to one of the possible meanings of the -ing form at least
22:09:40 <olsner> AnMaster: think wavy-equals-sign
22:09:58 <olsner> maybe tilde-backspace-equals would do it in ebcdic :D
22:10:17 <oklopol> which either means me or my subconscious is a stinking liar, or that i rock at swedish
22:10:21 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, for me it means bash regex match :P
22:10:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, gör du det? vad trevligt
22:11:12 <olsner> oklopol: you're finnish, right? so it's no surprise you have some command of swedish
22:11:35 <AnMaster> kanske kan vi bilda the hemliga svenska säskapet om esoteriska programmeringsspråk?!
22:12:00 <oklopol> olsner: finnish people hate swedish, that's the official status
22:12:16 <AnMaster> Hemliga svenska esoteriska programmeringssälskapet
22:12:20 <oklopol> AnMaster: finland has a greater percentage here
22:13:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, depends on where in Finland
22:13:35 <psygnisfive> a way of querying a Freebase-style database using JSON
22:13:38 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, hm and what is "metaweb"?
22:13:57 <oklopol> greater percentage on this channel, and fizzie
22:14:08 <oklopol> also others but not online atm
22:14:22 <olsner> AnMaster: noterade bara din felstavning... sl + skap = slskap... vilket borde betyda ngonting i stil med "egenskapen att vara en sl"
22:14:24 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:14:33 <oklopol> unless torvalds was a LinuS joke
22:14:47 <AnMaster> olsner, ingen svensk stavningskontroll
22:15:01 -!- Judofyr has joined.
22:15:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, Torvalds speak Swedish iirc
22:15:44 <AnMaster> oklopol, iirc Torvalds is finlandssvensk
22:16:05 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:16:05 <oklopol> i was thinking more like spelling police, so had to check.
22:16:21 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
22:16:38 <AnMaster> oh no the spelling police is out underlining words in red!!!!!!!
22:16:46 <olsner> if there was a spelling police, spell checks and spellcheckers is what they would have
22:17:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, Sälarnas sällskap för sälskap?
22:18:09 <AnMaster> olsner, borde låta mer formelt hrrm
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23:01:58 <lament> http://pastebin.com/m29548d1d
23:02:10 <lament> big dipper on the left, cassiopeia on the right, polaris in the middle
23:02:28 <ais523> lament: ASCII-art stars?
23:02:35 <ais523> or is that a new constellation-based esolang?
23:03:23 <lament> now if i pick a bunch of cool dots from unicode, i could make this look passable
23:04:00 <lament> one problem is, i suppose you can't really guess the aspect ratio
23:04:58 <lament> one thing i actually want to have
23:05:02 <tusho> lament: use curses to animate it
23:05:05 <lament> is a realistic planetarium
23:05:06 <tusho> then it should be clear
23:05:23 <lament> by realistic i mean "looks the way the sky actually does"
23:05:38 <lament> probably impossible, though
23:06:07 <lament> (without a hemispherical display, anyway)
23:10:04 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"").
23:14:48 <tusho> psygnisfive: Yeah, I bet he goes to channels about esoteric programming languages.
23:22:27 <lament> tusho: i would never do such a thing
23:22:44 <tusho> I prefer channels like this.
23:22:51 <tusho> Gay sex is a far less insane topic.
23:23:56 <lament> old enough that you won't rape me.
23:24:08 <tusho> lament is 2something isn't he
23:24:16 <tusho> i am probably totally wrong
23:24:29 <lament> psygnisfive: would you rape me if i were 89?
23:25:05 <tusho> lament: so how old are you actually
23:25:56 <tusho> and 10x more mature :P
23:26:01 <tusho> which doesn't mean lament is mature
23:26:05 <tusho> so much as psygnisfive ... isn't
23:26:16 <psygnisfive> lament, are you gonna take that shit form tusho? saying you're not mature?
23:26:28 <tusho> psygnisfive: Yes. Yes he is.
23:26:56 <lament> psygnisfive: No. In fact, I'm going to ban him right away.
23:29:23 <tusho> lament: you're slow
23:29:35 <lament> tusho: slowness comes with maturity
23:29:45 <tusho> lament: how long until my ban?
23:31:13 <tusho> lament: what is the latest possible date
23:31:54 <tusho> lament: i hope you remember that
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23:32:28 <tusho> lament: computers won't exist then
23:32:35 <tusho> it'll be one big glob of singularity!
23:32:52 <psygnisfive> i wonder if the singularity will run on unix
23:33:40 <dogface_> The singularity will actually first be achieved in a COBOL compiler.
23:33:48 <tusho> psygnisfive: Worse is better.
23:33:57 <tusho> Unix is a bunch of decentralized, tiny, flowing nodes.
23:34:02 <dogface_> This will mean that everything will be written in COBOL, and computers will use COBOL for data storage.
23:34:07 <psygnisfive> we can program the singularity in intercal!
23:34:07 <tusho> Unified into one task.
23:34:11 <tusho> That is basically what a singularity is, is it not?
23:34:13 <lament> unix is a series of tubes.
23:34:40 <psygnisfive> its not a dumptruck, its a series of pipes!
23:35:14 <dogface_> The Singularity is actually a lot more like an event horizon than a singularity.
23:35:43 <psygnisfive> an event horizon, in that its hard to see beyond it
23:36:00 <psygnisfive> but a singularity is that the models break down in it
23:36:09 <dogface_> No, it's an event horizon in that once you go past it, there's no going back.
23:36:27 <psygnisfive> dogface_: well, we don't know that as such
23:36:41 <dogface_> Actually, we could even call it something like the technological escape speed.
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23:37:10 <dogface_> (I don't like the term "escape velocity" because it implies that direction is important. A space shuttle pointed straight down would be just as effective, if Earth didn't get in the way.)
23:38:05 <psygnisfive> dogface_: "escape velocity" is non-compositional. :P
23:38:13 <alexbobp> "escape speed" sounds like a custom drug
23:38:51 <alexbobp> so who thinks it would be a good idea to make a bot that implements a simple functional language, and allows anybody to upload and run arbitrary functions?
23:39:01 <alexbobp> in a well-sandboxed way, of course.
23:39:14 <tusho> http://yudkowsky.net/essays/aibox.html sorta freaks me out. Intuitively obviously I believe I could trivially pass it but considering that two big AI peopley thingies failed it that kind of scares me.
23:39:26 <tusho> alexbobp: You mean EgoBot?
23:39:33 <LinuS> array[0] = 1; array[1] = 1; for (i=2;i<maxfib;i++) array[i] = array[i-1] + array[i-2];
23:39:42 <tusho> alexbobp: EgoBot runs esolangs.
23:39:45 <tusho> bsmnt_bot runs Python.
23:39:46 <dogface_> psygnisfive: what does that mean?
23:39:51 <alexbobp> I personally had Object Disoriented in mind.
23:39:54 <LinuS> is this the quickest way to do fibonacci without using recursion
23:40:02 <LinuS> or are there other smartest one?
23:40:10 <tusho> LinuS: That seems reasonable.
23:40:13 <dogface_> Why do you want to not use recursion?
23:40:21 <LinuS> because my eso language doesn't support it!
23:40:24 <alexbobp> LinuS: Do you want to compile a list or find a specific element?
23:40:26 <dogface_> I'm pretty sure there are much faster ways.
23:40:32 <LinuS> compile a list alexbobp
23:40:48 <alexbobp> LinuS: Because there is a formula with exponentiation and shit for just a single element, but that's the way to go for making a list.
23:41:01 <tusho> I dislike the secrecy element of the AI box.
23:41:01 <alexbobp> dogface_: Because using recursion is way slower unless you memoize, and then it's still slower
23:41:09 <tusho> I want to see how it was done. It should bepublic knowledge
23:41:34 <LinuS> i've wrote another example for my irc-related esoteric language then :P
23:41:54 <dogface_> I'll look at AI box in a moment; first, I'll tell LinuS the faster way to calculate Fibonacci numbers, if there is one.
23:42:04 <tusho> alexbobp: http://yudkowsky.net/essays/aibox.html
23:42:16 <dogface_> psygnisfive: non-compositional.
23:42:45 <dogface_> phi^2 = phi + 1. The fastest way to calculate phi^n is not by repeated multiplication; it's exponentiation by squaring.
23:42:55 <psygnisfive> the meaning of the phrase is not composed solely of the meaning of its parts
23:43:11 <psygnisfive> "escape velocity" is not "velocity" to "escape"
23:43:24 <LinuS> http://rafb.net/p/Zrn36t47.html if someone wants :)
23:43:49 <tusho> LinuS: beware, psygnisfive will probably claim it's trivial now
23:44:13 <tusho> psygnisfive: The languge he just pasted.
23:44:27 <alexbobp> I'm going to need to clean up the syntax a bit though. Object Disoriented looks like it was designed to be totally unreadable.
23:44:41 <LinuS> the fibonacci example is at bottom
23:47:48 <psygnisfive> tusho: i dont even know what his language is doing there.
23:47:59 <tusho> psygnisfive: maybe you could read the text
23:48:02 <tusho> instead of just the code samples
23:50:49 <psygnisfive> in my opinion code should be vaguely transparent. :(
23:52:03 <tusho> psygnisfive: you are arguing that you should be able to read languages you don't know
23:52:08 <tusho> you'd have to dumb them down
23:52:26 <psygnisfive> no, im not saying that you should be able to read it
23:52:33 <LinuS> i think ircepl is quite transparent to be honest o.o'
23:52:33 <psygnisfive> just that it should be generally followable
23:52:54 <psygnisfive> i mean, when i first looked at some haskell code it was obvious what it was doing, to some extent
23:53:30 <tusho> psygnisfive: just read the damn text
23:57:37 <tusho> psygnisfive: thoughts?
23:57:52 <tusho> I think it's funny that you could use it for both weird esoteric programming AND silly little irc bots