←2008-08-11 2008-08-12 2008-08-13→ ↑2008 ↑all
00:00:44 <pikhq> Intentional vagueness is not humor.
00:01:00 <pikhq> It is an offense punishable by death.
00:01:10 <tusho> pikhq: So's your face.
00:01:12 <tusho> And that's what SHE said!
00:01:49 <pikhq> http://www.xkcd.com/169/
00:01:58 <Mony> 'night
00:02:30 <tusho> pikhq: I was being very specific.
00:02:34 <tusho> i was asking what I was full of.
00:03:06 <pikhq> You suck at punctuation.
00:03:11 <pikhq> And for that, you die.
00:04:23 <tusho> pikhq: Hey, I have an idea. Let's make people die for various unimportant reasons.
00:05:19 <pikhq> "Hey, you there!" "Yeah?" "You're in front of me." *bang*
00:05:42 <pikhq> :)
00:06:09 <tusho> "Hi, how are you?" *bang* "How dare you use abbreviations like 'hi'. The English language demands blood."
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03:06:01 <psygnisfive> oklopol!
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04:40:43 <Slereah_> Eso people!
04:40:47 <Slereah_> Tell me!
04:40:54 <Slereah_> Tell me what the fuck is this shit.
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06:41:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you want to use abs() or arg() (or corresponding maxima functions) if you want to see the strange-ness I mentioned..
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07:53:23 <asiekierka> Hi
07:53:29 <asiekierka> I'm making a Tap Code interpreter/decoder in BF
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07:54:01 <asiekierka> I wonder how to check if a value is more than 10, because if it is, i need to add 1 to it
07:55:14 <asiekierka> oh wait
07:55:17 <asiekierka> i found how maybe
07:55:26 <asiekierka> or not
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08:29:19 <asiekierka> lol, ASM to BF
08:29:21 <asiekierka> hard to hard
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09:17:23 <AnMaster> morning
09:18:34 <AnMaster> <optbot> Mony: (I only have 807 comment karma too. People just can't accept someone who's INFALLABLY RIGHT)
09:18:34 <optbot> AnMaster: modern mail clients, probably including gmail, make it really difficult not to :(
09:18:39 <AnMaster> that sounds like tusho saying it
09:23:17 <asiekierka> hi
09:23:27 <asiekierka> I wonder what can i make in BF
09:23:29 <asiekierka> Maybe a game?
09:27:27 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you could make almost anything, after all brainfuck is turing complete
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09:34:43 <asiekierka> AnMaster: But a BF game!
09:34:55 <asiekierka> A non-text adventure BF Game is impossible
09:35:00 <asiekierka> since there's no command like, delay
09:35:10 <asiekierka> Heh
09:35:32 <asiekierka> If there was a delay command, EVERYTHING would be possible
09:36:42 <AnMaster> asiekierka, hm? you could wait for input if that is what you mean
09:37:00 <asiekierka> Possibly
09:37:04 <AnMaster> and a turn based game with ASCII art like nethack is perfectly possible
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09:37:11 <asiekierka> Yes
09:37:16 <asiekierka> But what about a game needing timing
09:37:31 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well that would need more advanced IO, like async IO
09:37:38 <asiekierka> Or just one more command
09:37:46 <asiekierka> | - delay for 1/60th of a second
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09:43:50 <AnMaster> asiekierka, not really, you will still block on user inpuyt
09:43:52 <AnMaster> input*
09:43:58 <AnMaster> so it will still be turn based
09:45:04 <AnMaster> wait I just got an idea for making Funge98 sound enterprisy!
09:46:00 <oklopol> you will always find IO shit you need to make new stuff possible
09:46:01 <AnMaster> 'Concurrent Funge-98, features advanced "green threads"'
09:46:03 <AnMaster> user space ones
09:46:04 <AnMaster> :)
09:46:11 <oklopol> adding | will not let you shoot lazers.
09:46:12 <AnMaster> you could probably extend that
09:46:26 <AnMaster> "no need for special sync primitives"
09:46:27 <AnMaster> and so on
09:46:49 <asiekierka> I think i will make something BF-like but simpler
09:46:53 <asiekierka> i meant
09:46:55 <asiekierka> nethack-like
09:47:03 <asiekierka> Input will need to be the map, then user input
09:47:04 <oklopol> do it !
09:47:17 <asiekierka> Also
09:47:27 <asiekierka> my friend is doing a BF selfbooting floppy disk
09:47:28 <asiekierka> For now
09:47:33 <asiekierka> it'll support up to 64KB of BF code
09:47:35 <asiekierka> enough?
09:47:40 <AnMaster> asiekierka, not really
09:47:46 <AnMaster> lostkingdom is around 2 MB iirc?
09:47:49 <AnMaster> isn't it?
09:47:54 <asiekierka> JUST lostkingdom
09:47:56 <asiekierka> and yeah
09:48:03 <asiekierka> but it wouldn't fit on a floppy drive anyway
09:48:24 <AnMaster> 2.1 MB
09:48:40 <asiekierka> and a floppy disk
09:48:42 <asiekierka> is 1.44MB
09:48:45 <AnMaster> true
09:48:45 <asiekierka> so forget about it
09:49:01 <asiekierka> Maybe if the author will convert the un-enhanced version
09:49:08 <asiekierka> And my friend will get rid of the 64kb limit
09:49:09 <AnMaster> hm
09:49:10 <asiekierka> both unlikely
09:49:11 <oklopol> you can trivially compress it into a meg
09:49:16 <oklopol> into bf bytecode
09:49:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, ah yes
09:49:25 <asiekierka> BF bytecode, yeah
09:49:27 <asiekierka> but no
09:49:32 <AnMaster> and you can optimize it in various ways
09:50:05 <AnMaster> for example I generated a C version from it, optimized but used a lot of space for other reasons, the binary was around as large as the source
09:50:07 <asiekierka> I think we could just ask the author to convert the original non-extended version
09:50:14 <AnMaster> but the compiler did all kinds of optimizing
09:50:22 <asiekierka> Since most of the bonus space is long room version text
09:50:24 <AnMaster> like combining ++-- and <> and so on
09:50:33 <asiekierka> Oh yeah
09:50:38 <asiekierka> and from a BFBASIC direct conversion
09:50:42 <asiekierka> we can except that stuff, right
09:50:45 <asiekierka> With a simple filter
09:50:46 <AnMaster> oh and [-] -> "zero cell"
09:50:51 <asiekierka> copying only BF chars, without newlines and stuff
09:50:58 <asiekierka> i got it down by 50kb
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09:51:05 <AnMaster> asiekierka, yeah that too
09:51:14 <AnMaster> but what I talked about was very un-bft
09:51:17 <AnMaster> bfy*
09:51:31 <AnMaster> as it replaced +++ with "add 3"
09:52:05 <AnMaster> if the number of > and < in a loop is balanced you could probably optimize that too
09:52:08 <AnMaster> by renumbering
09:53:01 <AnMaster> say [+>-<+] could be changed into [>-<++] which could then be changed into "substract 1 from next cell, add two to current cell"
09:53:29 <AnMaster> so the resulting code didn't even need to move the pointer
09:53:35 <Mony> hi
09:54:06 <AnMaster> yet I haven't figured out a good algorithm to do it
09:54:52 <asiekierka> about my turnbased map thing, it wouldnt be that easy
09:54:56 <asiekierka> Or it will
09:55:09 <AnMaster> asiekierka, programming in a tarpit is never easy IMO
09:55:17 <asiekierka> I can store it like: Xsize, Ysize, playerx, playery, (map for X*Y cells)
09:55:31 <asiekierka> Also, i dont know BF well yet
09:55:48 <AnMaster> well it is pretty easy, just 8 instructions :P
09:56:16 <asiekierka> but as in
09:56:22 <asiekierka> i dont know ways to do cool stuff in it yet
09:56:33 <AnMaster> well that is the hard bit :P
09:57:06 <asiekierka> Im still slightly wondering how to check whether a value is 10 or more. I thought subtracting 9 from it, but that wouldn't work if the value is < 9
09:58:21 <asiekierka> Subtracting while checking if it goes zero? Uh, no. I'd need to check the other value too.
09:58:58 <asiekierka> brb, going to toy around with Portals
10:45:10 <asiekierka> ok
10:45:11 <asiekierka> backkkk
10:45:26 <asiekierka> Is there a good brainfuck tutorial
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10:57:11 <AnMaster> no clue
10:57:15 <AnMaster> I prefer befunge
10:59:02 <asiekierka> I am going to make a BF Function Collection
10:59:05 <asiekierka> collection of BF functions
11:02:43 <oklopol> what algos were you thinking?
11:02:52 <oklopol> there's a bunch in existance already on esolangs.org
11:03:43 <oklopol> asiekierka: Subtracting while checking if it goes zero? Uh, no. I'd need to check the other value too. <<< what other value?
11:05:29 <asiekierka> Everything
11:05:32 <asiekierka> Every useful piece of code
11:06:01 <asiekierka> But something like that
11:07:22 <asiekierka> +[>
11:07:22 <asiekierka> ,>,[>+++++<-]<[->>+<<]>>> now we have the tap code value in cell 3; Yay
11:07:31 <asiekierka> That's what i did before i was stuck
11:07:39 <asiekierka> how to check if the value is larger than 10
11:07:41 <oklopol> tap code?
11:07:45 <asiekierka> Yes.
11:07:53 <asiekierka> It doesn't have K and substitutes C for K
11:07:53 <oklopol> now what is that?
11:08:08 <asiekierka> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_Code
11:08:08 <asiekierka> :(
11:08:12 <oklopol> ...lice this?
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11:08:22 <asiekierka> Yes
11:08:30 <oklopol> k.
11:08:33 <asiekierka> Centrainly, you're right, oclopol.
11:08:37 <asiekierka> And since K isn't there
11:08:43 <asiekierka> and J is at position 10, K isn't there, so L is at 11
11:08:46 <asiekierka> Oops! A problem
11:09:05 <asiekierka> If the tap code position value is greather than 10, i must add one to it
11:09:09 <asiekierka> otherwise leave it ALONE
11:09:18 <oklopol> what?
11:09:26 <oklopol> don't you just find all k's and substitute c for them?
11:09:30 <asiekierka> No.
11:09:42 <asiekierka> Not that easy.
11:09:51 <asiekierka> A=1, B=2, C=3... got it?
11:09:52 <asiekierka> J=10
11:09:59 <asiekierka> K isn't there, L=11... ha.
11:10:09 <asiekierka> Normally, it'll be K=11, L=12
11:10:15 <asiekierka> And i'm decoding tap code
11:10:17 <asiekierka> not ENcoding
11:11:10 <oklopol> well tap code wasn't just english with k->c
11:11:17 <oklopol> this i didn't know
11:11:26 <asiekierka> And it works like this
11:11:40 <oklopol> i know how it wors
11:11:42 <oklopol> *works
11:11:49 <oklopol> now that the wikipedia page opened
11:11:59 <asiekierka> That's why i need to check if x > 10
11:12:02 <asiekierka> without destroying it
11:12:21 <asiekierka> If it is, add one to x
11:12:28 <asiekierka> If it is not, leave x alone
11:12:51 <asiekierka> You can use every cell after cell 3
11:13:08 <asiekierka> counting from cell 0
11:13:24 <oklopol> -[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[current cell != 0, add 10 to get original]]]]]]]]]]
11:13:41 <asiekierka> But it can't be just != 0
11:13:48 <asiekierka> This isn't enough
11:13:53 <asiekierka> Oh wait
11:14:00 <oklopol> if it goes in, it was more than 10.
11:14:14 <oklopol> if not, then it either already was in, or it was less than 10
11:14:30 <asiekierka> Ok
11:14:34 <oklopol> when you go in, you can set up a flag to signify you were in, so when you get out, you can check whether you were in
11:14:39 <oklopol> this is a simple way to do if's
11:14:52 <asiekierka> What if it doesn't go in? How to get the value back to normal
11:14:55 <asiekierka> wait, i can just copy it
11:14:59 <asiekierka> If i dont get inside the loop
11:15:03 <asiekierka> I can just re-copy the value
11:15:23 <oklopol> if it doesn't go in, current cell has become 0.
11:15:30 <oklopol> and yes
11:15:31 <oklopol> exactly
11:16:42 <asiekierka> Now let me think.
11:16:58 <asiekierka> Ok.
11:17:26 <asiekierka> I needed to check how to skip the second code part if i executed the first one
11:17:28 <asiekierka> A flag
11:17:29 <asiekierka> :)
11:20:35 <asiekierka> Oh, nearly done.
11:20:53 <asiekierka> Now i must add 65 to the output value, output it, return to cell 0 and close the loop. Yay.
11:20:59 <asiekierka> Writing the rest of code
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11:24:49 <oklopol> one out of 1542623412 of all possible functions done then.
11:24:59 <asiekierka> Now debugging
11:25:01 <asiekierka> lolololol
11:25:08 <asiekierka> Since i think I did something wrong
11:25:20 <asiekierka> I must check if i followed all the cell positions correctly
11:25:26 <asiekierka> I think i'm adding A to the wrong place
11:25:38 <asiekierka> Oh
11:25:47 <asiekierka> I forgot to decrase 48 from both values
11:26:32 <oklopol> o
11:26:57 <asiekierka> But thats not the problem
11:28:20 <asiekierka> 1) The first loop (multiplying) wasnt executed at all.
11:29:04 <tusho> i love it when I wake up to an alive #esoteric!
11:29:04 <tusho> :)
11:29:42 <asiekierka> oklopol, must fix your bit
11:32:32 <asiekierka> Fixing
11:32:36 <asiekierka> currently half of code fixed
11:33:20 <asiekierka> OMG
11:33:23 <asiekierka> IT'S DONE
11:33:35 <asiekierka> except that i must add 3 characters near the end:
11:33:36 <asiekierka> [-]
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11:34:09 <asiekierka> hopefully i have this bffilter app my friend made for me
11:34:21 <asiekierka> it filters everything, only the bf chars go through
11:35:11 <asiekierka> 174 bytes for a tap code decoder
11:37:52 <asiekierka> nope
11:37:59 <asiekierka> when fixed everything (a one-time run now)
11:38:02 <asiekierka> it's 162 bytes
11:38:06 <asiekierka> But it only works on BrainfuckMachine
11:38:08 <fizzie> I'm not sure I'd call a brainfuck filter an "app", given that you can just pipe your file through something like ... | perl -pne 's/[^,.<>\[\]+-]//g' | ...
11:38:17 <asiekierka> right
11:38:20 <asiekierka> but i dont have perl :P
11:38:35 <asiekierka> it's not a real app
11:38:37 <asiekierka> an utility
11:38:51 <fizzie> Bhrrrr. I'd feel all lost and alone on a system without a Perl.
11:39:20 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/UlJIr252.html
11:39:25 <asiekierka> can anyone test it on his machine
11:39:38 <asiekierka> Input numbers: 3 and 2, respectively
11:39:44 <asiekierka> as in, ascii chars "3" and "2"
11:39:48 <asiekierka> should output N
11:40:18 <asiekierka> oh wait it works
11:40:30 <asiekierka> you dont need to test
11:40:40 <asiekierka> Oh wait
11:40:49 <fizzie> It does seem to work.
11:40:50 <tusho> fizzie: He's on windows.
11:41:09 <asiekierka> The first line doesnt work
11:41:13 <asiekierka> it always outputs A
11:41:23 <asiekierka> if you use 3, 1; 4, 1; etc
11:41:44 <fizzie> Hey, I found the brainfuck interpreter I wrote for the C programming course homework.
11:41:56 <asiekierka> My program is very buggy AFAIK though
11:42:01 <asiekierka> But it's my first BF program
11:42:03 <fizzie> main(j,a,n,t)int*a;{unsigned short p=-1;char*r=calloc(n=p+1,6),*i=r+n,**k=i+n;for(read(open(*++a,t=0),i,p);n=*i-43,t<0?n-48?n-50||++t:--t:n?n-2?n-19?n-17?n-3?n-48?n-50?n-1||read(0,r+p,1):p[r]?i=k[j]:j--:p[r]?k[++j]=i:t--:putchar(p[r]):p--:p++:p[r]--:p[r]++,*i++;);}
11:42:04 <asiekierka> so let's do a YAY
11:42:40 <tusho> asiekierka: Er, you've been nabbing on about organizing brainfuck contests and thinking of various large projects (like games) to code in BF since 2007.
11:42:49 <tusho> And you've only just wrote your first trivial brainfuck program?
11:42:56 <asiekierka> Yeeeesss... i think
11:43:02 * tusho facepalm
11:43:07 <asiekierka> you mean
11:43:15 <asiekierka> oh wait
11:43:19 <asiekierka> no, nothing
11:43:30 <asiekierka> Maybe i did something else
11:43:37 <asiekierka> but i don't really recall
11:43:48 <tusho> fizzie: As the other active person, can you share in my facepalm?
11:43:53 <tusho> One just doesn't seem to be enough
11:43:58 <asiekierka> :/
11:44:11 <tusho> :p
11:44:21 <asiekierka> But no, seriously. I just liked the BF concept
11:44:26 <asiekierka> but was too lazy to do something in it
11:44:32 <asiekierka> I was learning all the esolangs in 2007
11:44:35 <tusho> asiekierka: perhaps you should focus on the text editor instead of the irc window :)
11:44:38 <asiekierka> s/learning/reading about
11:44:48 <asiekierka> in 2008 i continued it
11:45:04 <asiekierka> Now i was finally bored enough to make a BF app.
11:45:21 <asiekierka> also, does optbot have bf running functionality
11:45:22 <optbot> asiekierka: hush tusho
11:45:36 <asiekierka> hash tusho? okay
11:45:41 <tusho> hush
11:45:45 <asiekierka> i know
11:45:49 <asiekierka> but i just dont get "hush tusho"
11:46:02 <tusho> probably psygnisfive said it to me when I was talking
11:46:06 <tusho> he doesn't like me talking, generally.
11:46:14 <asiekierka> But tusho, does optbot have BF code running functionality?
11:46:14 <optbot> asiekierka: i might just try that CW6670 one
11:46:20 <tusho> asiekierka: yes. just ask it
11:46:52 <asiekierka> optbot, !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@
11:46:52 <optbot> asiekierka: too bad you can't use UPnP or whatever
11:46:57 <asiekierka> :(
11:47:00 <asiekierka> !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@
11:47:08 <asiekierka> Nope.
11:47:09 <tusho> asiekierka: you have to ask him in plain english!
11:47:14 <tusho> he has an AI...
11:47:17 <asiekierka> I know you're lying
11:47:20 <asiekierka> I know you're lying
11:47:24 <tusho> well, I'm not
11:47:26 <tusho> but fine
11:47:30 <asiekierka> Try it, then
11:47:32 <tusho> be without brainfuck code running functionality
11:47:40 <tusho> optbot: Can you interpret BF?
11:47:40 <optbot> tusho: Swhacks were voluntary point deduction.
11:47:48 <asiekierka> Uh
11:47:52 <asiekierka> i thought it has an AI
11:47:56 <tusho> it does
11:47:57 <asiekierka> or at least
11:47:58 <asiekierka> you told me
11:48:01 <asiekierka> Ok
11:48:03 <tusho> it just has operating hours
11:48:06 <asiekierka> :(
11:48:09 <tusho> it makes sense every now and then
11:48:13 <asiekierka> Im just going to put up my own BF bot here
11:48:13 <tusho> and spews crap all the other times
11:48:23 <tusho> why not just use optbot
11:48:24 <optbot> tusho: to python
11:48:28 <asiekierka> optbot, do you love tusho?
11:48:28 <optbot> asiekierka: would it go 50 times faster?
11:48:32 <tusho> LMAO
11:48:48 <asiekierka> optbot, if you love him, it will
11:48:49 <optbot> asiekierka: >>> bf ,[.,] <<< ?infinite loop
11:48:57 <asiekierka> Haha
11:48:58 <asiekierka> he made sense
11:49:02 <asiekierka> no
11:49:03 <asiekierka> he made sense
11:49:06 <asiekierka> i didn't make sense at all
11:49:41 <asiekierka> I need to put up a BF bot here
11:49:50 <asiekierka> how to run raw .java files?
11:49:56 <asiekierka> do you need to compile them
11:50:02 <asiekierka> oh wait
11:50:05 <asiekierka> i have a bf interpreter for mirc
11:50:10 <asiekierka> maybe
11:51:22 <fizzie> I pasted a C brainfuck interpreter just few lines ago; does your Perl-less system also lack a C compiler?
11:51:28 <asiekierka> no
11:51:31 <asiekierka> i have a C compiler
11:51:53 <asiekierka> Also, i need to make an OS for BF
11:52:05 <asiekierka> I will need a BF self-interpreter for it xD
11:52:19 <Sgeo> Bye all
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11:52:25 <tusho> fizzie: He wants it as an irc bot.
11:52:43 <tusho> fizzie: Also, now that he has written his first trivial BF program, seems he is back to aspirations of writing an OS in it.
11:52:56 <asiekierka> Not necessairly
11:53:00 <fizzie> Well, his mirc script can execute the compiled C interpreter. Or something.
11:53:01 <asiekierka> Just fantasying around
11:53:40 <tusho> Hmm.
11:53:55 <tusho> Sketch for a very short brainfuck interp in C:
11:54:15 <tusho> Implement each instruction in asm.
11:54:20 <tusho> Then, have a character array with it all in
11:54:26 <tusho> (pad it out with nops so they're all the same length)
11:54:44 <tusho> Then do some modulo stuff into the table and cast it to a function and call it or something.
11:54:46 <tusho> I don't know. :P
11:55:31 <fizzie> I'm not convinced it would be much shorter than, say, my 270-character one.
11:56:51 <tusho> fizzie: Well, [[main="machine code";]] would probably be shorter. :P
11:57:42 <tusho> Hmm...
11:57:47 <tusho> How do you say "return 0" in machine code...
11:58:00 <tusho> x86 obviously
11:58:15 <fizzie> Depends on the calling convention. Usually something like "mov eax, 0; ret"
11:58:26 <tusho> Yes, I know the asm.
11:58:32 <tusho> I guess I'll just have to assemble it huh
11:58:33 <tusho> :P
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11:59:59 <fizzie> 0x66, 0x31, 0xc0, 0xc3.
12:00:15 <tusho> Hmm.
12:00:15 <fizzie> If you do xor eax, eax; ret. The 'mov' instruction is longer, what with the four-byte literal in there.
12:00:21 <tusho> Ah. :P
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12:01:03 <tusho> So: "f1\300\303"
12:01:23 <tusho> Hmph.
12:01:23 <tusho> zsh: illegal hardware instruction ./a.out
12:02:42 <fizzie> Actually I think it might be just "0x31 0xc0 0xc3" in the normal automatically-32-bit x86 mode. I'm not sure of my nasm flags.
12:02:59 <tusho> fizzie: The \0 that C puts at the end of strings wouldn't break it, would it?
12:03:31 <tusho> No. Seems not.
12:03:57 <tusho> Geh. Same error.
12:04:03 * tusho main(){return 0;}
12:04:05 <tusho> er
12:04:08 <tusho> main(){return 0;}
12:04:11 <tusho> main="foobarbaz";
12:04:16 <tusho> Hmm.
12:04:23 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:04:23 <tusho> Looks like I'm not saving much if anything. :P
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12:10:07 <fizzie> I couldn't get a raw-assembler .c file that GCC would bother compiling without doing:
12:10:11 <fizzie> char main[3] __attribute__ ((section (".text"))) = "1\300\303";
12:10:25 <fizzie> (It wanted to segfault without the section attribute.)
12:10:31 <tusho> fizzie: Hmph.
12:10:34 <tusho> That kind of sucks.
12:10:41 <tusho> Wasn't there an IOCCC entry that took the form:
12:10:43 <tusho> main="...";?
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12:11:08 <fizzie> Haven't seen, but could be. I'm not sure if x86_64 is a bit pickier with this stuff, anyway.
12:11:32 <tusho> hahahahh linkinus grabs ops when it c an
12:11:33 <tusho> [12:11:08] ← asiekierka left the channel. ()
12:11:33 <tusho> [12:11:08] ← tusho left the channel. ("Boing!")
12:11:33 <tusho> [12:11:08] → tusho joined the channel.
12:11:44 <tusho> as soon as the channel goes empty it seems to cycle to get ops
12:12:08 <fizzie> An opportunistic client.
12:12:32 <asiekierka> you know i wouldnt come in that channel back anyway
12:12:40 <asiekierka> and who'd even like to have a channel #lold
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12:29:51 <asiekierka> Inspired by the newest userfriendly comic: "I need an esoteric language that will make me into a millionaire. Can you code it for me?"
12:31:41 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
12:32:45 -!- asiekierka has joined.
12:32:55 <asiekierka> Crashed mIRC with /brainfuck +[].
12:32:58 <asiekierka> Was bored.
12:33:46 <asiekierka> what you worked on in esolangs lastly?
12:41:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | simply.
12:41:58 <asiekierka> optbot!
12:41:59 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i'm too tired to implement any trig functions.
12:42:09 <asiekierka> optbot!
12:42:09 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | the pencil sharpener in my biology classroom is so good that the PPS is actually blowing out of the pencil sharpener, so that if you put a pencil too close to it, the pencil becomes sharpened..
12:42:20 <asiekierka> that stays
12:45:21 <asiekierka> I hate it when i'm back and everyone is off
12:47:22 <tusho> meh
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13:34:00 <asiekierka> If you were given a chance to buy something computer-related, but only one thing, no matter how much it costs, what would you buy?
13:34:45 <tusho> asiekierka: a machine that can make any machine
13:34:59 <asiekierka> but the thing you want to get
13:35:00 <asiekierka> must exist
13:35:02 <asiekierka> right now
13:35:07 <asiekierka> or
13:35:10 <asiekierka> it could be from the past
13:35:11 <asiekierka> or the present
13:35:13 <asiekierka> but NOT the future
13:35:39 <tusho> asiekierka: I'd wait until someone made such a machine.
13:35:52 <asiekierka> But you'll be given a chance only for one day
13:35:59 <asiekierka> I'd personally buy a supercomputer
13:36:15 <asiekierka> the #1 or #2 supercomputer on the TOP 500 list
13:36:23 <asiekierka> Then i'll set it to compute BF programs
13:36:26 <asiekierka> and go to sleep...
13:36:54 <asiekierka> i wake up, and there waits a 1GB BF program
13:36:59 <asiekierka> That is in fact a port of NetHack.
13:37:04 <asiekierka> with a lot of bonuses
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14:12:14 <asiekierka> I'm bored.
14:12:18 <asiekierka> Any ideas on what to do?
14:14:16 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:14:33 <tusho> asiekierka: go outside
14:14:39 <asiekierka> can't
14:14:42 <tusho> why
14:14:46 <asiekierka> i'm alone in the house, it's locked
14:14:50 <asiekierka> can't go outside
14:14:51 <tusho> ah
14:14:55 <asiekierka> I meant
14:14:58 <asiekierka> something in BF maybe
14:15:03 <asiekierka> as i have like, 2-3 hours of free time
14:15:17 <tusho> not that many BF programs that are yet to be written by now :P
14:15:29 <asiekierka> What is there left to do
14:15:41 <asiekierka> except optimizing "hello world" of course
14:16:03 <tusho> egobot has pretty much got hello world down
14:16:08 <tusho> as far as optimizing goes
14:16:33 <asiekierka> what's the smallest BF code that says "Hello World!" then
14:17:10 <asiekierka> also wheres egobot
14:18:25 <tusho> 1. esowiki page
14:18:28 <tusho> 2. gone
14:19:16 <asiekierka> I have a smaller hello world
14:19:44 <asiekierka> 113bytes
14:19:56 <tusho> use the genetic evolution thing
14:20:12 <asiekierka> wait, BF has a "genetic evolution thing"?
14:20:29 <Slereah_> Only if it could reproduce
14:20:50 <asiekierka> ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@
14:20:56 <asiekierka> Is there a way to optimize THAT hello world?
14:21:01 <asiekierka> i found in my collection
14:21:07 <asiekierka> is there a smaller one
14:21:10 <tusho> i think so.
14:21:19 <tusho> i've seen a 104-byte
14:21:21 <tusho> from egobot
14:22:23 <asiekierka> no, its not mine
14:22:28 <asiekierka> What
14:22:31 <asiekierka> a 104-byte
14:22:36 <asiekierka> Oh god
14:22:51 <asiekierka> Egobot must be back. NOW.
14:26:35 <tusho> asiekierka: you are obsessing over BF too much
14:27:14 <asiekierka> But i like BF
14:27:26 <asiekierka> Ok
14:27:34 <tusho> asiekierka: it's a good language but there are other esolangs...
14:27:35 <asiekierka> So propose me another esolang to obsess over
14:27:42 <tusho> how about underload
14:27:43 <tusho> or befunge
14:27:47 <asiekierka> Befunge is out
14:27:48 <tusho> SNUSP
14:27:48 <tusho> Path
14:27:51 <tusho> and why
14:27:55 <asiekierka> SNUSP and Path are ones of my favs
14:28:00 <asiekierka> Befunge has too many commands
14:28:04 <tusho> no it doesn't
14:28:07 <tusho> and that's a ridiculous reason
14:28:27 <asiekierka> in my opinion it has too much
14:28:31 <Deewiant> 106 bytes: ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.
14:28:37 <tusho> asiekierka: Esoteric != "has little commands."
14:28:41 <tusho> That's called a tarpit.
14:28:45 <asiekierka> Oh
14:28:45 <tusho> There is interestingness beyond tarpits
14:28:46 <Deewiant> (from http://helloworldsite.he.funpic.de/hello.htm#BrainFuck )
14:28:52 <asiekierka> so i like Turing tarpits then.
14:29:11 <tusho> asiekierka: And turing tarpits tend to be the least interesting esolangs.
14:29:23 <asiekierka> I like them the most
14:29:29 <asiekierka> Also, useful joke languages.
14:29:41 <asiekierka> (like any exist)
14:29:46 <Deewiant> (like Befunge)
14:29:53 <tusho> don't be surprised if people don't seem to respond to you then.
14:30:01 <tusho> most of us are bored of tarpits by now
14:30:13 <asiekierka> I'm bored of being bored
14:30:19 <tusho> we can tell
14:30:22 <tusho> or at least I can
14:30:45 <asiekierka> No, srsly, befunge has a little too much stuff for me
14:30:52 <asiekierka> It can do everything
14:30:53 <asiekierka> But
14:30:55 <asiekierka> But...
14:31:07 <tusho> asiekierka please look up the befunge page on the wiki
14:31:12 <asiekierka> I'm looking
14:31:25 <tusho> if that has too many commands your taste in esolangs is terminally boring
14:31:45 <asiekierka> 36 (or 27 if you count 0-9 as one).
14:31:48 <asiekierka> Compare it to 8.
14:32:34 <asiekierka> also
14:32:47 <asiekierka> i would need to get a selfbootable befunge interpreter
14:32:48 <asiekierka> then
14:33:12 <tusho> jee
14:33:12 <tusho> z
14:34:25 <asiekierka> But oh well
14:34:30 <asiekierka> I will do something in Befunge
14:34:32 <asiekierka> If you want
14:34:35 <tusho> asiekierka: are you calling me an idiot?
14:34:40 <tusho> well, thanks
14:34:44 <asiekierka> no
14:34:46 <asiekierka> i'm calling myself
14:34:47 <asiekierka> an idiot
14:34:59 <asiekierka> because i behave like one
14:35:04 <asiekierka> saying 25 commands is too much
14:35:22 <asiekierka> and staying with BF
14:35:22 <tusho> why do you always call yourself an idio
14:35:23 <tusho> t
14:35:27 <tusho> you spend like half of your time doing that
14:35:39 <asiekierka> Because everyone convinces me i am
14:36:25 <asiekierka> Also
14:36:29 <asiekierka> is there a befunge tutorial
14:37:07 <tusho> not sure
14:37:08 <tusho> probably
14:37:50 <asiekierka> there is
14:40:28 <asiekierka> ugh
14:40:32 <asiekierka> Two links failed
14:40:36 <asiekierka> (for an interpreter
14:40:42 <asiekierka> )
14:40:50 <asiekierka> three!
14:40:54 <asiekierka> yayz :/
14:41:08 <asiekierka> finally found something
14:41:16 <tusho> i think cfunge can interpret -93 as well as -98
14:41:16 <tusho> :P
14:42:10 <asiekierka> Ok
14:42:19 <asiekierka> made a Tap Code decoder in Befunge (nearly)
14:44:25 <tusho> that was quick
14:44:37 <asiekierka> but i must fix the "K" problem
14:44:39 <asiekierka> now
14:45:55 <asiekierka> &6%&6%5*88*1+++,
14:45:57 <asiekierka> the code for now
14:46:05 <asiekierka> It works nearly
14:46:08 <asiekierka> now to fix the K
14:46:29 <asiekierka> Now i must learn how to use IFs
14:47:08 <Deewiant> 88*1+ -> "A" (or 'A for Funge-98)
14:47:14 <asiekierka> yes
14:47:36 <asiekierka> it is in the 0-4 array
14:47:50 <asiekierka> change &6%&6% to &5%&5%
14:49:09 <asiekierka> Compare this to...
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14:49:28 <asiekierka> Back
14:49:30 <asiekierka> well
14:49:32 <asiekierka> compare my befunge code with...
14:49:34 <asiekierka> ,>++++++++[<------>-],>++++++++[<------>-]<[>+++++<-]<[->>+<<]>>[->+>+<<]>>[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[+++++++++++>+>]]]]]]]]]]]<[-<[-]<[->+<]>>]++++++++[<++++++++>-]<+.
14:49:37 <asiekierka> ...this.
14:49:46 <asiekierka> And i'm using befunge-93!
14:49:58 <tusho> asiekierka: Yes. :P
14:50:04 <tusho> Hmm.
14:50:10 <tusho> Offtopic, what would you people use to register a .se domain?
14:50:25 <tusho> All the registrars I've found either are ridiculously expensive or don't let you change the nameservers
14:50:29 <tusho> (for a friend)
14:50:29 <asiekierka> ihatewindows98.se
14:50:32 <asiekierka> haha
14:50:35 <asiekierka> or
14:50:38 <asiekierka> ilikewindows98.se
14:50:56 <asiekierka> or
14:51:02 <asiekierka> myfriendisslimniceandwi.se
14:52:21 <asiekierka> Or
14:52:26 <asiekierka> iwanttobewi.se
14:52:27 <asiekierka> or
14:52:35 <asiekierka> tusho_is_slim_and_wi.se
14:52:37 <asiekierka> or
14:52:40 <asiekierka> esolangs_are_wi.se
14:52:45 <asiekierka> or... i'm out of ideas
14:54:27 <asiekierka> I'm going to move to befunge-98
14:54:31 <asiekierka> Or should i stay at -93?
14:54:57 <asiekierka> hello?
14:55:35 <tusho> asiekierka: a registrar
14:55:36 <tusho> not a domain
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15:01:26 <asiekierka> untested finished tap code decoder for befunge-93:
15:01:27 <asiekierka> &5%&5%5*88*1+++:52*`v
15:01:27 <asiekierka> v+1_v
15:01:27 <asiekierka> @, <
15:01:27 <asiekierka> @
15:01:47 <asiekierka> And this one
15:01:49 <asiekierka> actually works!
15:02:17 <asiekierka> minimised it to 3 lines
15:02:18 <asiekierka> Compare that
15:02:21 <asiekierka> with
15:02:21 <asiekierka> my BF code
15:02:24 <asiekierka> Please.
15:02:33 <asiekierka> the code is tested and works
15:02:47 <AnMaster> lets see... *reads b93 code*
15:03:06 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what is it trying to do
15:03:22 <asiekierka> Wait
15:03:24 <asiekierka> it's broken!
15:03:26 <AnMaster> you take two numbers, modulo 5
15:03:30 <asiekierka> actually
15:03:37 <AnMaster> then multiply the last with 5
15:03:48 <asiekierka> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_Code
15:03:52 <asiekierka> decode tap codes.
15:04:10 <asiekierka> You input the number of taps, and get the letter
15:04:11 <AnMaster> then 8*8 (64), then add 1 to it, then add 65 to the the second number you read (times 5)
15:04:15 <asiekierka> But it seems that thing is broken
15:04:20 <asiekierka> It's "true" no matter what
15:04:25 <AnMaster> then add the first number to that
15:05:49 <AnMaster> asiekierka, it checks if the final number is smaller than 5*2?
15:06:01 <asiekierka> larger
15:06:06 <asiekierka> if it is, should add one
15:06:14 <AnMaster> yeah... hm
15:06:16 <asiekierka> if it isn't, should leave it alone
15:06:30 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well the final number would be larger than 10
15:06:35 <AnMaster> as far as I can work out
15:06:38 <asiekierka> Not necessairly
15:06:43 <asiekierka> 0*0=0
15:06:49 <asiekierka> no wait
15:06:50 <asiekierka> it's
15:06:55 <asiekierka> 0*(0*5)
15:06:56 <AnMaster> 8*8 + 1 = 65
15:07:00 <asiekierka> Yes
15:07:02 <asiekierka> oh wait
15:07:04 <AnMaster> which you then *add* to maybe 0
15:07:05 <asiekierka> didn't spot that bit
15:07:23 <asiekierka> thanks for finding that bit
15:07:28 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I got no clue what it is
15:07:32 <asiekierka> It's broken
15:07:34 <AnMaster> but I can see it will always be larger yes
15:07:36 <asiekierka> a broken tap code decoder
15:07:53 <asiekierka> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_Code
15:07:55 <asiekierka> it decodes that
15:08:26 <tusho> hey AnMaster
15:08:29 <tusho> you're swedish
15:08:35 <tusho> what registrar would you use to register an .se domain
15:08:41 <asiekierka> Okay
15:08:42 <asiekierka> v >1+>88*1++,@
15:08:43 <asiekierka> >&5%&5%5*+:52*`|
15:08:43 <asiekierka> > ^
15:08:44 <asiekierka> this should work
15:09:07 <asiekierka> also
15:09:21 <asiekierka> can i do like
15:09:32 <asiekierka> not > ^, but >xx^ or something, to indicate code flow?
15:09:49 <AnMaster> eh
15:09:53 <tusho> yes but why
15:09:59 <AnMaster> asiekierka, not in funge 93
15:10:04 <asiekierka> Oh
15:10:11 <AnMaster> in 98 there are such chars you could use
15:10:24 <asiekierka> Well, i'm going to use funge-93 because tusho said i should use it since 98 is harder
15:10:25 <tusho> AnMaster: ?
15:10:25 <AnMaster> tusho, I never looked for registrar
15:10:28 <tusho> AnMaster: ok
15:10:30 <AnMaster> tusho, I use *.org mostly
15:10:35 <tusho> AnMaster: still ... all of them seem to suck
15:10:40 <tusho> AnMaster: can't change nameserver
15:10:43 <tusho> or hideously expensive
15:10:44 <AnMaster> asiekierka, 98 is harder to *implement*
15:10:48 <asiekierka> Oh.
15:10:51 <tusho> i didn't say that asiekierka
15:10:53 <tusho> i said it's simple
15:10:54 <tusho> r
15:10:59 <asiekierka> <asiekierka> uh, should i stay at befunge-93 or migrate to befunge-98?>
15:11:00 <asiekierka> <tusho> stay with -93 for now
15:11:00 <asiekierka> <tusho> it's a _lot_ simpler
15:11:00 <AnMaster> asiekierka, and it is the opposite of a tarpit if you see what I mean
15:11:07 <AnMaster> 98 is positively bloated :P
15:11:23 <asiekierka> Also
15:11:24 <AnMaster> asiekierka, 93 is easier to learn too, less commands
15:11:28 <asiekierka> Yeah
15:11:29 <asiekierka> but
15:11:40 <asiekierka> does Befunge-93 have commands 98 doesn't?
15:11:41 <AnMaster> asiekierka, in funge98 every printable char have some meaning
15:11:47 <AnMaster> and 98 is a superset of 93
15:11:55 <asiekierka> oh
15:12:03 <asiekierka> So i should first master funge93
15:12:14 <asiekierka> Then get around to 98
15:12:19 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well, there are some semantic differences with spaces in strings between 93 and 98
15:12:43 <AnMaster> ie, 98 does it like html, multiple spaces are ignored
15:12:54 <AnMaster> but apart from that it is a true superset
15:13:05 <asiekierka> well, i replaced 88*1+ with "A" for a little space optimization
15:13:08 <AnMaster> eh
15:13:09 <AnMaster> a
15:13:10 <AnMaster> not A
15:13:15 <AnMaster> A is different from a in 98
15:13:19 <asiekierka> oh
15:13:21 <asiekierka> but im using -93
15:13:23 <asiekierka> as i told
15:13:24 <AnMaster> a = 10
15:13:32 <AnMaster> oh you mean as a string
15:13:34 <AnMaster> right
15:13:34 <asiekierka> yes
15:13:35 <AnMaster> sure
15:13:38 <asiekierka> also, i use -93 anyway
15:13:46 <AnMaster> k
15:21:30 <asiekierka> Any ideas on what program to do?
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15:24:30 <asiekierka> Oh, i see.
15:24:39 <asiekierka> Befunge also has every program possible made, right
15:24:41 <asiekierka> RIGHT
15:24:52 <tusho> no
15:24:53 <tusho> :P
15:25:02 <tusho> asiekierka: we're not like ... program idea generations
15:25:11 <tusho> generators
15:25:20 <asiekierka> Oh
15:25:27 <asiekierka> But, anything you want to do but are too lazy maybe
15:26:29 <tusho> asiekierka: how about a web server
15:26:34 <tusho> you'll need -98 to do that
15:26:42 <tusho> for the networking & filesystem fingerprints(modules)
15:28:25 <asiekierka> How about i'll do an interpreter for something in -93
15:28:27 <asiekierka> For practice
15:28:31 <tusho> sure
15:28:32 <asiekierka> THEN i'll get around to -9
15:28:34 <tusho> probably a good idea
15:28:34 <asiekierka> -98
15:28:40 <tusho> asiekierka: what about an underload interp
15:28:42 <tusho> that's quite complicated
15:28:44 <asiekierka> Since an interpreter is the hardest thing in an esolang 50% of the time
15:28:45 <tusho> but still interesting
15:28:49 <asiekierka> Nothing much complicated
15:28:56 <asiekierka> I'd like to do a Piet interpreter xD
15:28:57 <tusho> it's not too complicated
15:28:59 <tusho> a little tricky, though
15:29:12 <asiekierka> with a builtin module to read BMP data
15:29:16 <asiekierka> But 80x25 is a problem
15:29:23 <asiekierka> I'd so like Befunge-93 without the limit
15:29:40 <asiekierka> in moments like that
15:29:42 <tusho> asiekierka: yes, -98 has no limit
15:29:44 <tusho> however
15:29:49 <tusho> 80x25 is an advantage in some ways
15:29:54 <tusho> it forces you to think about using the most of the space
15:29:57 <asiekierka> Yeah, it motivates you to optimize
15:33:31 <asiekierka> Anything for my first time making an esolang interpreter in an esolang?
15:33:32 <asiekierka> something easyt
15:33:34 <asiekierka> easy*
15:33:38 <asiekierka> but for the love of God NOT BF
15:33:55 <tusho> asiekierka: well, I guess underload would be a bit too hard
15:33:56 <tusho> BCT?
15:34:00 <tusho> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BCT
15:34:03 <tusho> very very simple
15:34:05 <tusho> and TC
15:34:19 <tusho> (though your impl won't be TC - befunge-93 isn't TC)
15:34:25 <tusho> (close enough for a lot of things though)
15:35:33 <asiekierka> 0 is removing the bit that's the farthest one left?
15:35:40 <asiekierka> as in, the first on the "stack"
15:36:09 <tusho> yes asiekierka
15:36:31 <tusho> and 11 = if leftmost data is 1: append 1 to end of data
15:36:35 <tusho> and 10 = if leftmost data is 1: append 0 to end of data
15:36:40 <asiekierka> 1 if the leftmost data-bit is 0, skips the next command?
15:36:43 <tusho> but
15:36:45 <tusho> note that
15:36:46 <tusho> 110
15:36:47 <tusho> executes as
15:36:53 <tusho> 11, 10, 0
15:37:01 <tusho> asiekierka: no
15:37:06 <tusho> the next command is never skipped
15:37:07 <asiekierka> oh
15:37:16 <asiekierka> so 1 if the leftmost bit is 0 just nops?
15:37:23 <tusho> yes
15:37:27 <tusho> asiekierka: but note the bit below it
15:37:31 <tusho> you don't just execute it and finish
15:37:33 <tusho> you have to "cycle" it
15:37:44 <tusho> but that's it
15:37:46 <tusho> it's pretty trivial
15:37:51 <asiekierka> cycle?
15:37:51 <asiekierka> 0 <-- 10
15:37:51 <asiekierka> 1 <-- 11
15:37:51 <asiekierka> ; <-- 0
15:37:53 <asiekierka> you mean that
15:38:03 <asiekierka> oh wait
15:38:03 <asiekierka> no
15:38:05 <asiekierka> it's not that
15:38:16 <tusho> yeah read the paragraph below :P
15:38:50 <asiekierka> I wonder what's "cycling"
15:38:52 <AnMaster> tusho, I wonder, irc bot in erlang, I assume it has already been done though
15:39:04 <AnMaster> anyway not today I think, I think I got a cold
15:39:05 <tusho> AnMaster: obviously :P
15:39:09 <tusho> asiekierka: it describes it on the page
15:39:12 <tusho> read the BCT page all the way through
15:39:12 <tusho> :P
15:39:16 * AnMaster will probably go to bed soon due to this cold
15:39:17 <tusho> it's short
15:39:20 <tusho> AnMaster: aw
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15:41:57 <tusho> by the way
15:42:11 <tusho> AnMaster: what do you think about ESO using befunge.org for its fingerprint-URI-service?
15:42:41 <AnMaster> tusho, sure, ok for me
15:42:43 <tusho> http://befunge.org/fp/tusho/tardis
15:42:47 <tusho> or whatever :P
15:43:06 <AnMaster> you know I hate time travel :P
15:43:08 <tusho> :D
15:43:10 <tusho> AnMaster: hmm
15:43:18 <tusho> AnMaster: for legacy ones
15:43:29 <tusho> http://befunge.org/fp/-legacy/TRDS
15:43:30 <tusho> or something
15:43:30 <tusho> ?
15:43:35 <tusho> then it's still a valid URI
15:43:36 <AnMaster> well legacy ones can still be loaded with the old names in funge-108
15:43:42 <tusho> as opposed to funge-fingerprint-legacy://
15:43:45 <tusho> AnMaster: why?
15:43:56 <AnMaster> it should be possible to run most existing programs under funge-108 without modifications
15:43:58 <asiekierka> Still don't quite get it. I think it's just that 10/11 are paired.
15:44:01 <AnMaster> some small needed for k and such
15:44:16 <asiekierka> 10 appends 0 to the end if the leftmost bit is 1
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15:44:18 <tusho> AnMaster: i don't think you should bother with backwards-compatibility for funge-108 really
15:44:19 <tusho> :P
15:44:25 <AnMaster> tusho, well hm....
15:44:34 <tusho> AnMaster: just have a --98 switch or whatever
15:44:46 <tusho> probably, make --98 the default
15:44:46 <AnMaster> tusho, sure cfunge will have that. but still...
15:44:53 <tusho> and have --108 for the 3 108 programs :P
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15:45:05 <tusho> AnMaster: it'd remove a lot of clutter from the spec
15:45:06 <AnMaster> cfunge already got a -s {93,98,108}
15:45:13 <asiekierka> I think i'll just check an interpreter source code
15:45:17 <asiekierka> C source code
15:45:19 <tusho> and as you said it doesn't have full compatibility atm
15:45:21 <tusho> due to 'k' etc
15:45:28 <AnMaster> tusho, k etc?
15:45:38 <tusho> [15:44:03] <AnMaster> some small needed for k and such
15:45:45 <tusho> you're already backwards-incompatible, might as well take the oppertunity
15:45:51 <AnMaster> hm
15:46:07 <AnMaster> tusho, think of the existing codebase ;P
15:46:25 <tusho> AnMaster: gasp, you might have to put a few if (FungeVersion == 98)s in! :P
15:46:29 <AnMaster> hehehe
15:46:33 <AnMaster> tusho, I already got that ;P
15:46:37 <AnMaster> for 93
15:47:04 <AnMaster> where currently I only handle spaces differently, because the space in string is the only thing I seen causing issues
15:47:11 <AnMaster> so not a full 93 mode
15:47:23 <AnMaster> but rather a semi-compatibility mode
15:47:30 <asiekierka> I think i'll implement Cyclic Tag instead
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15:47:40 <tusho> asiekierka: bitwise is simpler than cyclic tag
15:47:43 <tusho> since it's, uh, only bits
15:47:44 <tusho> :P
15:47:54 <asiekierka> in befunge it's not a difference
15:47:58 <AnMaster> tusho, depend on what language you implement it in
15:48:06 <AnMaster> bitwise operations in befunge wouldn't be fun
15:48:16 <asiekierka> i wouldn't use bitwise
15:48:19 <AnMaster> asiekierka, if you want to compare some number you want 98 btw
15:48:20 <tusho> yeah okay
15:48:22 <asiekierka> I would use 0 and 1 in digits anyway
15:48:23 <AnMaster> much easier
15:48:23 <AnMaster> w
15:48:32 <AnMaster> say:
15:48:46 <Deewiant> I actually prefer -#v_ sometimes
15:48:50 <tusho> you know
15:48:51 <Deewiant> since you only need two lines
15:48:55 <asiekierka> How to store the datastring in Befunge-93
15:48:56 <asiekierka> i wonder
15:48:58 <tusho> funge.org would be more fun than befunge.org
15:48:59 <tusho> c.funge.org
15:49:03 <tusho> rc.funge.org
15:49:27 <asiekierka> since g/p operations take away space
15:49:29 <asiekierka> and the stack
15:49:50 <tusho> asiekierka: the stack is probably the best idea
15:49:54 <asiekierka> Yeah, i'd need to put a value at the very bottom
15:49:56 <asiekierka> How!?
15:50:04 <tusho> but if you hyper-optimized your code you could leave the rest of the fungespace for the code/datastring
15:50:15 <asiekierka> as the leftmost will be the top (okay) and rightmost will be the bottom
15:50:19 <asiekierka> Now how to add numbers to the bottom
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15:50:43 <Deewiant> asiekierka: to the bottom of the stack?
15:50:46 <asiekierka> Yes
15:50:54 <Deewiant> you'll need a fingerprint for that
15:50:58 <Deewiant> MODE or FRTH
15:51:00 <asiekierka> in befunge-93
15:51:04 <Deewiant> impossible
15:51:19 <AnMaster> v > "2 is greater than 1">:#,_@
15:51:20 <AnMaster> > 1 2 w "2 and 1 are equal Equal">:#,_@
15:51:20 <AnMaster> > "2 is less than 1">:#,_@
15:51:22 <Deewiant> well, of course you can store the stack in funge-space
15:51:25 <AnMaster> of course that won't print it correctly
15:51:28 <AnMaster> asiekierka, ^
15:51:32 <AnMaster> but very useful w.
15:51:48 <Deewiant> asiekierka: i.e. 'p' all values on the stack now somewhere, then push your new value, then 'g' them back
15:51:55 <asiekierka> I wanted to do it
15:52:02 <Deewiant> you might have to keep track of the stack size though
15:52:10 <asiekierka> right
15:52:31 <asiekierka> if it'll exceed 80 bytes, i'm going to remove the rightmost databit
15:52:35 <asiekierka> or
15:52:36 <asiekierka> not put it
15:52:37 <AnMaster> i<tusho> funge.org would be more fun than befunge.org
15:52:39 <AnMaster> aye
15:52:43 <AnMaster> trefunge
15:52:44 <AnMaster> unefunge
15:52:45 <AnMaster> too
15:52:49 <tusho> be.funge.org :P
15:52:54 <asiekierka> I could keep track by g/p
15:52:55 <tusho> and the interpreter name puns
15:53:09 <AnMaster> tusho, then what about CC.funge.org.I? ;P
15:53:14 <AnMaster> err
15:53:17 <AnMaster> tusho, then what about CC.be.funge.org.I? ;P
15:53:18 <AnMaster> even
15:53:38 <AnMaster> or FBBI
15:53:39 <tusho> AnMaster: ccbe.funge.org/i
15:53:46 <tusho> fbbe.funge.org/i
15:54:00 <Deewiant> why .org
15:54:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well his domain name...
15:54:11 <tusho> Deewiant: what would you suggest?
15:54:17 <tusho> .com? it's not commercial
15:54:20 <AnMaster> tusho, buy a tld from ICANN?
15:54:23 <AnMaster> .funge
15:54:24 <AnMaster> XD
15:54:26 <tusho> AnMaster: heh
15:54:28 <Deewiant> exactly :-)
15:54:35 <AnMaster> how much would that cost?
15:54:39 <tusho> AnMaster: $500K
15:54:41 <tusho> I believe
15:54:42 <AnMaster> ouch
15:54:45 <AnMaster> not an option then
15:54:48 <tusho> o rly
15:54:49 <tusho> :p
15:54:54 <AnMaster> well not for me
15:55:08 <tusho> i am actually a billionare
15:55:14 <tusho> that 12 year old thing was just a disguise
15:55:17 <tusho> you guys want .funge?
15:55:17 <Deewiant> but of course we don't need to use http and hence can drop the .org altogether
15:55:20 <Deewiant> unless we want to
15:55:26 <tusho> Deewiant: gopher!
15:55:29 <tusho> no wait
15:55:33 <tusho> hmm
15:55:41 <tusho> Deewiant: mailto
15:55:46 <tusho> mailto:c@funge.org
15:55:51 <AnMaster> eww
15:55:56 <tusho> mailing to it will be replied to with information about cfunge
15:55:57 <tusho> :-P
15:56:00 <Deewiant> do we have to use a standardized one?
15:56:06 <asiekierka> Ok, i have processing lines ready for ;, 1 and 0
15:56:10 <tusho> Deewiant: yes
15:56:10 <Deewiant> if so, just urn:
15:56:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, of course, we need URIs
15:56:12 <tusho> otherwise it's not a valid uri
15:56:19 <tusho> asiekierka: uh
15:56:21 <tusho> ; isn't in bct
15:56:28 <asiekierka> but i'm writing a CT interpreter
15:56:31 <tusho> oh
15:56:31 <tusho> ok
15:56:37 <asiekierka> Also
15:57:02 <asiekierka> is g/p's x and y positions calculated from 0-79/0-24 or 1-80/1-25
15:57:02 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you need funge-98 then
15:57:09 <asiekierka> Why
15:57:11 <AnMaster> because funge-93 is not turing complete
15:57:21 <AnMaster> it is restricted to 25x80
15:57:24 <Deewiant> tusho, AnMaster: where in the RFC does it say that they need to be officially registered
15:57:26 <tusho> he doesn't need tc AnMaster
15:57:31 <Deewiant> I can't find it in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986
15:57:35 <AnMaster> tusho, well CT would need it right?
15:57:36 <tusho> Deewiant: shrug - I know it's true though
15:57:36 <asiekierka> No language ever on the universe is TC
15:57:40 <asiekierka> we don't have unbounded storage
15:57:48 <tusho> asiekierka: langs are tc
15:57:49 <tusho> impls are not
15:57:50 <Deewiant> tusho: wikipedia says only "should"
15:57:55 <tusho> AnMaster: he can implement CT without infinite memory
15:57:59 <tusho> Deewiant: it's somewhere in there
15:58:06 <AnMaster> Individual schemes are not specified by this document. The process
15:58:07 <AnMaster> for registration of new URI schemes is defined separately by [BCP35].
15:58:07 <AnMaster> The scheme registry maintains the mapping between scheme names and
15:58:07 <AnMaster> their specifications.
15:58:11 <AnMaster> there are lots of stuff like it
15:58:43 <Deewiant> tusho: but anyway, urn: works
15:58:55 <tusho> Deewiant: yes but ESO are going to give away http uris
15:58:59 <tusho> because it's nicer to be able to just load it and get info
15:59:03 <tusho> instead of googling it or whatever
15:59:25 <AnMaster> tusho, you could document other ones not hosted by you in some standard format as well
15:59:37 <tusho> AnMaster: possibly
15:59:45 <asiekierka> Also, with g/p, do you put x, then y, or the other way around?
15:59:45 <tusho> i'd prefer to keep it away from centralizationt hough
15:59:47 <tusho> *though
15:59:51 <AnMaster> at least for the *old* established ones
16:00:01 <AnMaster> tusho, I mean the already existing common ones,
16:00:02 <tusho> AnMaster: that'll be under -legacy
16:00:07 <AnMaster> or at least provide info where to find themn
16:00:09 <AnMaster> them*
16:00:09 <tusho> http://befunge.org/fp/-legacy/TRDS
16:00:21 <AnMaster> tusho, and I will still allow loading programs with old style name
16:00:32 <tusho> AnMaster: i've argued for why you shouldn't
16:00:33 <tusho> shrug
16:00:52 <AnMaster> URI scheme names, as defined by <scheme> in Section 3.1, form a
16:00:53 <AnMaster> registered namespace that is managed by IANA according to the
16:00:53 <AnMaster> procedures defined in [BCP35]. No IANA actions are required by this
16:00:53 <AnMaster> document.
16:01:20 <AnMaster> tusho, changing existing applications to new scheme may be hard
16:01:29 <tusho> AnMaster: err no
16:01:35 <tusho> put http://befunge.org/fp/-legacy/ in front of it
16:01:36 <tusho> or whatever
16:01:46 <AnMaster> tusho, there may be lack of space in funge programs
16:01:48 <tusho> or an appropriate urn:, if that's the legacy route taken
16:01:49 <AnMaster> just look at mycology
16:01:55 <tusho> AnMaster: um, fungespace is infinite
16:02:03 <tusho> anyway
16:02:07 <AnMaster> tusho, but you need to readjust a lot of existing code sometimes
16:02:18 <tusho> AnMaster: what conceivable new features in funge-108 would justify porting a program over?
16:02:20 <tusho> it's just a clarification
16:02:21 <tusho> for new programs
16:02:25 <tusho> not anything worth upgrading to
16:02:26 <AnMaster> at least if you wrote the original program idiomatically
16:02:27 <AnMaster> :P
16:02:35 <tusho> therefore, backwards-compatibility is a non-issue
16:02:57 <AnMaster> tusho, what if you want to extend it to use some new fingerprint, I mean in another module of the program ;P
16:03:12 <tusho> AnMaster: yeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssss....
16:03:21 <tusho> the problem is you use your jokes to actually justify changing the standard
16:03:23 <tusho> :|
16:03:26 <AnMaster> tusho, of course this is not very probable :P
16:03:30 <tusho> exactly
16:03:55 <AnMaster> tusho, but we need to maintain compatibility with existing enterprise level applications!
16:03:59 <AnMaster> ;P
16:04:20 <tusho> AnMaster: give me a non-joking justification
16:04:27 <asiekierka> CTiBE is a hard job
16:04:33 <tusho> if you can't, then surely you must face what I said and remove it
16:04:42 <AnMaster> tusho, making it possible to run existing code
16:04:51 <AnMaster> also
16:04:56 <tusho> AnMaster: just run it as --98
16:05:09 <tusho> if you think there are going to be any funge-108 interps you are pretty deluded
16:05:11 <AnMaster> the issue of selecting URIs for existing ones
16:05:14 <tusho> funge-108 only that is
16:05:14 <AnMaster> or new 98 ones
16:05:22 <tusho> AnMaster: use an urn
16:05:28 <tusho> urn:
16:05:34 <AnMaster> um yes, they are also a specific name space
16:06:23 <AnMaster> http://www.iana.org/assignments/urn-namespaces/
16:06:26 <AnMaster> are the valid URN ones
16:06:44 <tusho> there is a generic one though
16:06:48 <tusho> that you can arbitarily use
16:06:51 <tusho> forgot which
16:08:06 <AnMaster> bbiab
16:08:58 <asiekierka> >v
16:08:59 <asiekierka> >62*54*3+g:"O"|>55*pv>program continues here
16:08:59 <asiekierka> ^ < < < < < < < < < <
16:08:59 <asiekierka> > > > > ^
16:09:06 <asiekierka> my stack copy thing
16:09:20 <asiekierka> wait
16:09:21 <asiekierka> it's broken
16:09:49 -!- Slereah has joined.
16:09:50 <asiekierka> >v
16:09:51 <asiekierka> >62*54*3+g:"O"|>55*pv>code here
16:09:51 <asiekierka> ^< < < < < < < < < <<
16:09:51 <asiekierka> > > > >^
16:09:52 <asiekierka> here we go
16:09:54 <tusho> hi Slereah_
16:10:02 <asiekierka> How's that
16:10:09 <asiekierka> my stack copying code
16:10:35 <asiekierka> O is char 79
16:10:43 <asiekierka> and it gives me some optimization in this thing
16:10:46 <tusho> asiekierka: crazy but cool :D
16:10:54 <asiekierka> xD
16:10:59 <asiekierka> also, optimized i think
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16:12:29 <AnMaster> asiekierka, where is entry point in that code
16:12:37 <asiekierka> it's just a part of my code
16:12:43 <AnMaster> <asiekierka> ^< < < < < < < < < <<
16:12:43 <AnMaster> <asiekierka> > > > >^
16:12:47 <AnMaster> that looks unbalanced
16:12:57 <asiekierka> It's meant to look like it
16:13:01 <AnMaster> ah ok
16:13:09 <asiekierka> I wonder if i didn't swap something up
16:13:19 <asiekierka> yes i did
16:13:21 <asiekierka> up with down
16:13:47 <AnMaster> asiekierka, all the un-needed arrows are confusing
16:13:55 <asiekierka> They help me see what is where
16:13:57 <asiekierka> a bit
16:13:59 <asiekierka> but oh well
16:14:10 <AnMaster> well for me they signal "something will need to turn here"
16:14:19 <AnMaster> so I look for stuff entering from other directions
16:14:20 <asiekierka> > v
16:14:20 <asiekierka> >62*54*3+g:"O"|>55*pv>code here
16:14:20 <asiekierka> ^ <
16:14:20 <asiekierka> >^
16:14:21 <asiekierka> what about THIS
16:14:25 <AnMaster> ah yes :)
16:14:37 <asiekierka> But the code for stack cleaning looks so obfuscated
16:14:41 <asiekierka> I hardly understand it
16:14:51 <AnMaster> you could make it more compact I think
16:14:56 <asiekierka> it generates the value 12 (X), 20+3=23 (Y)
16:15:06 <asiekierka> Then it takes the value from it (loopty loop position
16:15:08 <asiekierka> )
16:15:16 <asiekierka> duplicates it for IF purposes
16:15:22 <asiekierka> Compares it with "O" (79)
16:15:34 <asiekierka> If it's 79 already, it's over!
16:15:35 <AnMaster> " :rebmun a retnE" >:#,_v
16:15:35 <AnMaster> v_v#!`g00:+1<np00& <
16:15:35 <AnMaster> .:< >a,@ ^
16:15:37 <AnMaster> :)
16:15:39 <AnMaster> one of mine
16:15:49 <AnMaster> the :) was a smiley, not funge code btw
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16:16:00 <asiekierka> If it's not, it goes to enter another number, and repeats the code
16:16:02 <AnMaster> I think it may be funge-98 only
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16:16:08 <asiekierka> It's all of my code.
16:16:10 <AnMaster> actually, not sure
16:16:12 <asiekierka> That's what it does
16:16:17 <AnMaster> brb
16:16:17 <asiekierka> Not quite a lot, right?
16:16:27 <tusho> AnMaster: can you believe asiekierka only decided to learn befunge two hours ago?
16:17:39 <asiekierka> I think i know how to cut it to 3 lines
16:17:58 <asiekierka> no wait
16:18:00 <asiekierka> not that easy
16:18:02 <asiekierka> after all
16:18:18 <asiekierka> oh well
16:18:37 <tusho> asiekierka: how much of the full interp have you written?
16:18:43 <tusho> wait
16:18:44 <tusho> all of it?!
16:18:47 <asiekierka> The stack copying code is 10-20%
16:18:49 <asiekierka> nope
16:18:51 <tusho> ah
16:18:53 <asiekierka> Only the stack copying code
16:18:57 <asiekierka> It's the most important part
16:19:02 <asiekierka> Then goes a stack re-copying part
16:19:07 <asiekierka> Then the actual function implementation
16:19:09 <asiekierka> And done. :)
16:19:30 <asiekierka> I wasted 12/22 lines so far
16:19:35 <asiekierka> as 3 are reserved for stack/etc data
16:19:40 <asiekierka> I could minimize it to 2
16:19:54 <asiekierka> Also
16:19:54 <tusho> asiekierka: remember, you can fit code in vertically
16:19:58 <asiekierka> yeah
16:19:59 <asiekierka> i know
16:20:00 <tusho> and then use horizontal if
16:20:05 <asiekierka> is there a way to check whether the stack is empty?
16:20:08 <tusho> asiekierka: you can even make code execute in different directions
16:20:12 <tusho> same code
16:20:17 <asiekierka> or cross instructions together
16:20:18 <asiekierka> as in
16:20:18 <tusho> so that it goes a different way depending on which way it hits
16:20:19 <tusho> etc
16:20:24 <asiekierka> > g >
16:20:26 <tusho> asiekierka: no way to check for an empty stack
16:20:26 <asiekierka> and
16:20:27 <tusho> but yes
16:20:28 <asiekierka> v
16:20:29 <asiekierka> g
16:20:29 <asiekierka> v
16:20:34 <asiekierka> g is in the same spot
16:20:46 <asiekierka> So, if i output from the stack when it's empty
16:20:48 <asiekierka> i get a null value?
16:21:02 <tusho> asiekierka: undefined, I guess
16:21:04 <tusho> maybe an error
16:21:15 <asiekierka> So my cyclic tag interpreter may crash
16:21:25 <tusho> perhaps
16:21:41 <asiekierka> i may make an interp for a different lang maybe
16:21:49 <tusho> asiekierka: nah
16:21:53 <tusho> just find a way around your problem
16:21:53 * asiekierka is all deadfish
16:21:53 <tusho> :P
16:21:59 <asiekierka> Tusho: but there's none!
16:22:11 <tusho> asiekierka: o rly?
16:22:15 <tusho> put false on the bottom of the stack
16:22:16 <asiekierka> ya rly
16:22:20 <asiekierka> oh
16:22:21 <tusho> increase each other element on the stack by 1
16:22:23 <tusho> then, stack empty = if
16:22:34 <asiekierka> i could put a "EOS sign" at the bottom of the stack
16:22:37 <tusho> (This means that the maximum integer that you can put on the stack is 1 less, but who cares)
16:22:40 <tusho> asiekierka: yes, and that's the best way to do it
16:22:41 <asiekierka> EOS - End Of Stack (xD)
16:23:16 <Deewiant> asiekierka: empty stack is defined to pop 0
16:23:28 <tusho> ah, there we go then
16:23:31 <asiekierka> in funge-93?
16:23:40 <Deewiant> yes, there as well
16:23:47 <asiekierka> but i'll use an E
16:23:49 <asiekierka> safety is important
16:23:50 <asiekierka> :)
16:23:53 <tusho> asiekierka: errr
16:23:56 <tusho> but E could appear on the stack
16:23:59 <tusho> couldn't it?
16:24:07 <asiekierka> nope
16:24:08 <tusho> asiekierka: best way: use a 0, then increase every other one by one
16:24:09 <tusho> oh
16:24:10 <tusho> okay then
16:24:12 <asiekierka> only 0 and 1 can
16:24:15 <tusho> ah ok
16:24:16 <asiekierka> in CT, right
16:24:17 <tusho> then just use an E
16:24:18 <tusho> or whatever
16:26:10 <asiekierka> v
16:26:12 <asiekierka> " >v >$ v
16:26:12 <asiekierka> E >62*54*3+g:"O"|>:"E"|>55*pv>
16:26:12 <asiekierka> " ^ > ^
16:26:12 <asiekierka> >~:"0" | >^
16:26:12 <asiekierka> v
16:26:15 <asiekierka> a full excerpt from my code
16:26:20 <asiekierka> this is the "0" current implementation
16:26:26 <asiekierka> I.E. stack cleaning and initalization
16:26:32 <asiekierka> without the real "0" interpretation
16:26:32 <tusho> asiekierka: really cool
16:26:38 <tusho> how do you pick up languages so fast?
16:26:42 <asiekierka> I'm a kid.
16:26:45 <asiekierka> Kids learn quickly.
16:26:47 <asiekierka> :P
16:26:48 <tusho> so am i, i'm 12 :p
16:26:51 <tusho> but i could not write that with only 2 hours of befunge knowledge
16:27:01 <asiekierka> 3 hours.
16:27:04 <asiekierka> i think 3.
16:27:07 <tusho> nor 3 hours :P
16:27:10 <asiekierka> Also, i can write quickly
16:27:20 <tusho> i can type pretty darn quickly too
16:27:24 <asiekierka> And i just look at the docs frequently
16:27:25 <tusho> dunno how that ties in with learning befunge though
16:27:26 <tusho> :P
16:27:31 <asiekierka> when i dont know what to do
16:27:34 <asiekierka> i look at the docs
16:27:35 <asiekierka> if still no idea
16:27:37 <tusho> true
16:27:37 <Deewiant> I think befunge is really simple...
16:27:38 <asiekierka> i ask here :D
16:27:45 <asiekierka> EAP
16:27:47 <tusho> Deewiant: well, i couldn't write that :p
16:27:47 <asiekierka> (Easy As Pie)
16:28:11 <asiekierka> So, as you see, the stack clean&copy code is done.
16:28:15 <Deewiant> tusho: well why not, what's so complicated about it :-P
16:28:17 <asiekierka> Now i must copy it to all 3 functions
16:28:27 <tusho> Deewiant: just the organization i guess
16:28:30 <tusho> i would continually have to shift it about
16:28:32 <tusho> and probably give up
16:28:56 <Deewiant> so the problem isn't befunge knowledge, it's that you're an untidy person with little patience ;-)
16:29:25 <tusho> Deewiant: :p
16:29:36 <tusho> got me down to a T there
16:29:42 <asiekierka> I have a little too much patience
16:29:43 <asiekierka> ya know? :D
16:29:58 <tusho> asiekierka: i find it hard to believe -that- :P
16:30:15 <asiekierka> how else could i write that piece of code
16:30:20 <asiekierka> so fastly
16:30:20 <asiekierka> w/o a break
16:30:41 <asiekierka> Ok
16:30:45 <tusho> asiekierka: you're hyperactive
16:30:45 <asiekierka> so stack cleaning is done
16:30:45 <tusho> :P
16:30:51 <asiekierka> Maybe
16:30:53 <tusho> that's how :D
16:31:02 <asiekierka> I just like doing stuff
16:32:18 <fizzie> Wahh, every time people speak about Befunge, it reminds me of the Befunge turing machine interpreter thing I wrote, syntax-highlighted with horrible HTML/CSS, and then subsequently lost.
16:32:18 <asiekierka> Done the function for ";"
16:32:29 <asiekierka> now 0, 1 and the stack readding code
16:32:32 <tusho> fizzie: Aww.
16:32:44 <tusho> fizzie: It can't have been TC though unless it was -98
16:32:45 <Deewiant> fizzie: rewrite it from memory
16:32:57 <asiekierka> I forgot about something
16:32:59 <asiekierka> checking conditions
16:33:17 <fizzie> tusho; The tape length was limited to the width of the funge-space, yes.
16:33:18 <Deewiant> tusho: what if it uses , and & to store/retrieve from the user's mind
16:33:25 <asiekierka> Hopefully i don't use any ascii char after "N"
16:33:53 <asiekierka> Ok, fixed
16:34:38 <asiekierka> So now goes implementing 0, 1 and the stack removal stuff. Oh man, how i want to take a break from this
16:34:43 <asiekierka> but can't really, it's so awesome
16:35:02 <tusho> heh
16:35:11 <tusho> asiekierka: but ... befunge has too many commands!
16:35:13 <Deewiant> befunge is like that, you can't stop
16:35:14 <tusho> :P
16:35:27 <asiekierka> tusho: but... befunge's commands are just good enough
16:35:37 <tusho> i was just copying what you said earlier asiekierka
16:35:37 <tusho> :P
16:35:51 <AnMaster> <tusho> AnMaster: can you believe asiekierka only decided to learn befunge two hours ago?
16:35:52 <AnMaster> nop
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16:37:23 <AnMaster> <tusho> asiekierka: no way to check for an empty stack <-- in funge-98 you could use y
16:37:43 <asiekierka> FUNGE-98 DAMMIT
16:37:43 <AnMaster> as for empty funge stack you always get 0
16:37:44 <tusho> he is using -93
16:37:46 <asiekierka> I USE FUNGE-93
16:37:54 <asiekierka> Please remember that.
16:37:55 <AnMaster> in 93 too
16:37:55 <asiekierka> OH PLEASE
16:38:01 <tusho> asiekierka: chill
16:38:03 <asiekierka> i'm using an "E" already
16:38:08 <asiekierka> to check for "EOS"
16:38:14 <asiekierka> oh wait
16:38:19 <asiekierka> forgot conditions on the "E" too :(
16:38:35 <asiekierka> That'll require so much remapping
16:38:40 <asiekierka> now, as i completed 50% of "1"
16:39:08 <AnMaster> asiekierka, this would probably be easier in Funge-98
16:39:24 <asiekierka> but i'm making it in funge-93 to practice it
16:39:27 <asiekierka> before migrating to funge-98
16:39:30 <AnMaster> anyway using y is not trivial ;P
16:39:39 <AnMaster> y is "system information"
16:39:47 <AnMaster> problem is, getting the right info out of it
16:40:18 <asiekierka> Hopefully, just fixed every order stuff
16:40:21 <asiekierka> Now to implement
16:41:03 <AnMaster> asiekierka, there is a lisp->befunge-98 compiler
16:41:09 <AnMaster> not very good an the code is slow
16:41:28 <AnMaster> or was it scheme->befunge-98?
16:41:30 <AnMaster> one of those
16:41:35 <AnMaster> and only handled a subset
16:41:49 <Deewiant> http://cubonegro.orgfree.com/sponge/sponge.html
16:42:00 <AnMaster> ah yes
16:42:03 <asiekierka> Ok, implemented 1
16:42:09 -!- tusho has quit.
16:42:12 * sebbu a un hérisson dans son jardin | have a hedgedog in the garden
16:42:23 -!- tusho has joined.
16:43:17 <asiekierka> Woo
16:43:20 <asiekierka> 0 is implemented too!
16:43:34 <asiekierka> But how tired i am... I must take a break. For 17 minutes.
16:43:40 <asiekierka> Then i'll work on stack readding
16:43:47 <tusho> 17?
16:43:48 <tusho> pretty precise
16:43:57 <asiekierka> since it'll be 6 PM at that time here
16:44:01 <asiekierka> And finally fnish the code then.
16:44:22 <asiekierka> I.E. add stack reputting. Then just get over with it.
16:44:23 <asiekierka> oh wait
16:44:29 <asiekierka> i don't have output in my interpreter
16:44:30 <asiekierka> :((((
16:44:33 <asiekierka> Oh man.
16:44:41 <asiekierka> and i dont have a debugger
16:44:50 <asiekierka> I will get it later
16:44:52 <asiekierka> now, a break.
16:44:59 <asiekierka> 6 minutes away, then going to talk
16:45:38 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I don't think you can fit a debugger into it as well
16:45:57 <tusho> AnMaster: he wants a befunge debugger
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16:46:08 <asiekierka> since the stack has the memory
16:46:09 <LinuS> hi there
16:46:18 <asiekierka> and the code is the input
16:46:19 <asiekierka> hi
16:46:23 <Deewiant> for befunge-93, RC/Funge-98 has a debugger
16:46:37 <Deewiant> if it's befunge-98 compatible (probably is), CCBI's debugger is better ;-)
16:46:55 <AnMaster> wait
16:46:55 <LinuS> do you have any news about IRC-related eso languages a part from the one found on 99bottles of beer which seem to be called IRC?
16:46:58 <AnMaster> what?
16:47:16 <LinuS> i've done one, then i realized there might be more :(
16:47:26 <AnMaster> what about IRP?
16:48:13 <asiekierka> i think he means the esolang called "IRC"
16:48:22 <LinuS> oh i see, there is also IRP
16:48:43 <AnMaster> there is one called IRC?
16:48:59 <LinuS> yes
16:49:06 <AnMaster> LinuS, IRP can be *done* over IRC (as in IRC chat)
16:49:12 <LinuS> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/IRC
16:49:17 <LinuS> AnMaster: i see
16:49:20 <LinuS> well mine is kind of different
16:49:34 <LinuS> it is a turing complete one that sends commands to an irc server aswell
16:49:49 <LinuS> it uses channels as functions and +b as variables
16:49:54 <AnMaster> haha
16:49:56 <LinuS> and everything is sent to the server
16:49:59 * AnMaster reads up on it
16:50:14 <LinuS> i've got an example but it is in italian, you should still understands commands anyway, wait a moment
16:50:41 <LinuS> http://rafb.net/p/Hcfjqb90.html
16:50:52 <tusho> LinuS: that's cool
16:51:06 <LinuS> is it? i was scared someone else already did this
16:51:36 <tusho> LinuS: it's funny, because that would be useful for both crazy ESO things and making silly little IRC bots
16:51:39 <tusho> (if you can read from the server too)
16:52:01 <LinuS> well, at the moment it just send commands
16:52:14 <LinuS> the fact is i tried to store everything on IRC
16:52:32 <LinuS> so you'd need to use +b in a channel to pass info to another process
16:52:53 <LinuS> but channels have +lk flags (used for passing parameters to functions) so that might be a problem
16:53:06 -!- Mony has joined.
16:53:15 <AnMaster> LinuS, write an interpreter for IRC maybe?
16:53:30 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:53:41 <asiekierka> ok i'm back
16:53:53 <asiekierka> 7 minutes and im back to work
16:54:07 <AnMaster> asiekierka, hm?
16:54:22 <asiekierka> working on the stack recopying module of my Cyclic Tag interpreter for Befunge
16:54:26 <AnMaster> ah yes
16:54:28 <LinuS> AnMaster: the problem is you can't see every command, i was thinking about writing an interpreter that both: executes the command (the only main thing he does is reading variables and calling functions, and the + - / * operations) and sends it to the irc server
16:55:01 <asiekierka> oh well
16:55:05 <LinuS> in the link you can see it calculating a power
16:55:06 <asiekierka> gonna start doing it slowly
16:55:08 <AnMaster> LinuS, you would to use a custom irc server to handle multiple clients, no rate limits and so on
16:55:24 <AnMaster> and to give +o to set clients
16:55:36 <LinuS> well i can just delay the messagges and change nick/channel for every new program
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16:55:44 <AnMaster> LinuS, a normal ircd limits number of client per host
16:55:45 <LinuS> so that you can run it in every irc server
16:55:50 <AnMaster> well normal ircd setup
16:55:56 <LinuS> well, why do you need more then one?
16:55:58 <AnMaster> and also rates for commands
16:56:10 <LinuS> rates for commands is solver by delaying every command
16:56:13 <AnMaster> LinuS, one for "op, input, output, voiced" and so on
16:56:27 <LinuS> i'm not using that!
16:56:34 <AnMaster> LinuS, um what?
16:56:35 <LinuS> i store variables in channel's +b
16:56:43 <LinuS> i'm not the IRC guy
16:56:45 <asiekierka> This part of code will recopy the stack from codespace to the stack, append whatever's needed, and return to the beginning
16:56:48 <AnMaster> errgh what?
16:56:48 <LinuS> http://rafb.net/p/Hcfjqb90.html
16:56:50 <LinuS> i've done this
16:56:51 <LinuS> lol
16:56:55 <AnMaster> LinuS, number of bans are also limited
16:56:57 <AnMaster> normally 64
16:56:58 <asiekierka> Oh wait, i didn't check for endofcode the whole time
16:57:00 <LinuS> yeah well
16:57:07 <LinuS> it is enought
16:57:11 <LinuS> enough*
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16:57:16 <AnMaster> LinuS, also I can't read that language you pasted
16:57:20 <AnMaster> hi ais523
16:57:27 <LinuS> fine, just read the examples
16:57:27 <AnMaster> LinuS, French? Spanish?
16:57:33 <LinuS> without taking care of the * comments
16:57:34 <LinuS> italian :)
16:57:42 <ais523> hi AnMaster
16:57:43 <LinuS> the second one is a power calculator
16:57:49 <LinuS> it calculates 2^4
16:58:04 <AnMaster> ais523, formed any opinion of erlang yet?
16:58:06 <LinuS> passing the parameters via the +l and +k "spaces"
16:58:19 <ais523> AnMaster: no, I've been asleep pretty much all the time I haven't been online recently
16:58:22 <AnMaster> LinuS, hm ok, well, English comments would help (or Swedish)
16:58:29 <LinuS> i'll translate it asap
16:58:30 <ais523> also I'm not connected to the Internet when I'm not on IRC, more or less
16:58:35 <ais523> unless I'm at a cybercage
16:58:39 <ais523> s/cage/cafe/
16:58:42 <ais523> although I like the typo
16:58:46 <LinuS> cybercage.. :D
16:58:47 <AnMaster> ais523, hahaha
16:58:47 <asiekierka> cybercage xD
16:58:54 <asiekierka> that's what describes what i'm doing right now
16:58:58 <LinuS> lol
16:58:58 <AnMaster> asiekierka, oh?
16:59:36 <asiekierka> making this is like sitting in a cage
16:59:45 <asiekierka> this cyclic tag interpreter
16:59:50 <asiekierka> It's not a cybercage
16:59:53 <asiekierka> It's a fungecage
16:59:54 <AnMaster> asiekierka, 98 would give more freedom, I mean allow you to use a lot more space
17:00:05 <AnMaster> and also make some stuff simpler
17:00:06 <ais523> asiekierka: writing a cyclic tag interp in Befunge-93?
17:00:12 <AnMaster> ais523, yes he is
17:00:15 <ais523> I'm not sure it's possible in general, cyclic tag's TC and Befunge-93 isn't
17:00:22 <ais523> so you're going to run out of fungespace eventually
17:00:30 <AnMaster> ais523, well no implementation is TC
17:00:38 <tusho> ais523
17:00:40 <tusho> you forgot to greet me
17:00:54 <ais523> AnMaster: I consider an implementation to be TC if the only reason it isn't TC is the standard library erroring
17:01:02 <ais523> tusho: yes, I want to move away from a greeting race
17:01:07 <ais523> besides AnMaster won this time
17:01:08 <tusho> ais523: how dare you
17:01:18 <AnMaster> ais523, I didn't race
17:01:22 <AnMaster> I just wanted to say hi
17:01:27 <ais523> AnMaster: no, that's what makes it better
17:01:37 <AnMaster> ais523, also what do you mean "standard library erroring"
17:01:38 <ais523> saying hi for the sake of saying hi is so much better than saying hi for racing
17:01:41 <ais523> AnMaster: malloc failing
17:01:46 <ais523> or similar
17:01:54 <AnMaster> the only reason no funge-98 is TC is that you run out of funge space at some point
17:01:59 <AnMaster> say 32-bit, 64-bit or whatever
17:02:04 <tusho> ais523: it's also a useful indication that #esoteric is gonna get a lot more active
17:02:06 <ais523> AnMaster: wrong, you can use the stack stack
17:02:07 <tusho> as it always does when you join
17:02:16 <AnMaster> ais523, well that will also run out
17:02:16 <ais523> to create infinite storage
17:02:19 <asiekierka> aaaahhh!
17:02:27 <asiekierka> I forgot i'm using the stack for the stack reader
17:02:34 <asiekierka> So nope, all hour of my work was wasted.
17:02:34 <AnMaster> ais523, because you need to be able to put stack size in y
17:02:46 <ais523> AnMaster: ugh, Funge-98 hits the sizeof problem
17:02:59 <AnMaster> ais523, aye, you need to be able to store the size
17:03:02 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/loi2iT93.html
17:03:03 <asiekierka> :(
17:03:05 <asiekierka> it's all broken
17:03:11 <asiekierka> :(
17:03:21 <AnMaster> asiekierka, then fix it :)
17:03:22 <asiekierka> If anyone wants to take it, feel free too
17:03:24 <asiekierka> to*
17:03:27 <tusho> asiekierka: i'm sure you can fix it
17:03:28 <asiekierka> But it'll take at least two hours
17:03:28 <tusho> don't give up
17:03:32 <ais523> C is only TC due to file I/O, the existence of sizeof prevents anything else being TC because sizeof(void*) has to be finite
17:03:52 <AnMaster> ais523, however I think cfunge will allow larger size than funge cell if it uses 32-bit cells on a 64-bit host
17:03:54 <asiekierka> no wait
17:03:56 <AnMaster> not sure what the result would be
17:03:57 <asiekierka> it IS okay, actually
17:04:02 <AnMaster> I don't have enough ram to test it
17:04:09 <asiekierka> forgot commands remove the stack values
17:04:09 <asiekierka> T_T
17:04:46 <AnMaster> ais523, hm... sizeof is useful still
17:05:08 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway you could have a bignum funge
17:05:25 <AnMaster> nothing really forbids in in 98
17:05:32 <AnMaster> well actually there is one small issue
17:05:37 <AnMaster> but that is fixed in 108
17:05:45 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that's good, unfortunately sizeof has to be finite in C and you have to be able to do bitwise arithmetic so that solution doesn't work there
17:05:48 <AnMaster> (number of bytes per cell, how do you say "bignum")
17:05:56 <AnMaster> (funge-108 says you should use -1 for that)
17:06:23 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, there?
17:06:29 <asiekierka> Woo, everything was right
17:06:30 <MikeRiley> ;yes i am
17:06:35 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, how would LONG work on a Funge with BIGNUMs?
17:06:38 <asiekierka> I just got to the point i didn't understand my own code, you know?
17:06:47 <asiekierka> Who did experience it? As in, you don't understand your code
17:06:58 <MikeRiley> LONG should use double the cell size as the size to use
17:07:15 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well with BIGNUM you could fit any value into any cell
17:07:16 <asiekierka> But i forgot about something
17:07:27 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bignum
17:07:29 <asiekierka> You know, i forgot to increase the cell value
17:07:44 <MikeRiley> looking
17:07:49 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, so 1 cell will always be enough for any value
17:08:26 <MikeRiley> LONG is not the same as that...
17:08:32 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, indeed not
17:08:40 <MikeRiley> BigNum looks like arbitary length,,,have another fingerprint for that!!!
17:08:50 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, but what if the interpreter uses Bignums for it's cells
17:08:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so a LONG with a bignum would just always push 0 for the other half of the value...
17:08:55 <MikeRiley> LONG is just integers that are double the cell size...
17:08:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah good point
17:09:10 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, point is, cell size *could be bignum*
17:09:25 <MikeRiley> in which case LONG may have no application...
17:09:28 <AnMaster> indeed
17:09:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how would mycology handle a bignum Funge-98 interpreter?
17:09:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: just fine...
17:09:58 <MikeRiley> but without some way to support it,,,anybody who wrote software using LONG would not work..
17:10:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what should cell size be? ;)
17:10:08 <AnMaster> in 108 that is solved
17:10:13 <AnMaster> but what about cell size in 98
17:10:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: UNDEF
17:10:21 <MikeRiley> cell size in 98 is undefined,,,
17:10:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well what would you recommend in y
17:10:27 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I mean for y
17:10:28 <MikeRiley> the spec says any size can be used...
17:10:29 <Deewiant> -1 seems good to me
17:10:35 <AnMaster> Funge-108 already defines it to -1
17:10:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, won't that make mycology go spare?
17:11:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: it might say that it has to be at least 1 to make sense
17:11:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well ok
17:12:31 <asiekierka> Oh god, i still don't understand my code anymore
17:12:36 <asiekierka> And i think it has a large problem
17:13:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: looking at the code, I don't think it would say anything though
17:13:21 <asiekierka> MAAAN, i need to rewrite half of my code
17:13:25 <Deewiant> although that code is so hairy one can never be sure ;-)
17:13:33 <tusho> asiekierka: no
17:13:34 <tusho> just think about it
17:13:35 <tusho> P
17:13:37 <tusho> *:P
17:13:37 <Deewiant> asiekierka: hey, I've written the Befunge-93 section of Mycology 4 times now
17:13:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm
17:13:42 <Deewiant> at least, maybe more
17:13:52 <asiekierka> You know, it's about that
17:13:59 <asiekierka> i never decrease the loop value
17:14:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway efunge only does 93 (and still input is broken as it always display prompt and so on)
17:14:06 <asiekierka> and so it'll copy it to the same spot over
17:14:06 <asiekierka> and over
17:14:07 <asiekierka> and over
17:14:34 <ais523> Deewiant: incidentally, Mycology isn't valid Befunge-93 because it's so large, interfunge chokes on it unless I trim it down to size by hand, and nowhere in the Befunge-93 spec does it say overlarge programs are allowed
17:14:47 <Deewiant> ais523: but neither does it say they are disallowed ;-)
17:15:02 <ais523> Deewiant: well you can't assume an interpreter disregards them, I know at least one that errors instead
17:15:19 <Deewiant> yep, I know
17:15:32 <MikeRiley> i believe a befunge-93 interpreter should just ignore anything outside the 80x25...
17:15:34 <Deewiant> but it's easy enough to rip out the first 80*25
17:15:48 <Deewiant> or 24, I think I had a line left over ;-)
17:16:28 <Deewiant> ais523: I guess I could add a note to the readme about that
17:16:38 <asiekierka> My code is such a mess by now
17:16:47 <tusho> asiekierka: no its not
17:16:49 <tusho> stop being hyperactive
17:16:50 <tusho> and read it :P
17:16:52 <ais523> Deewiant: yes, that's what I did, I used a sed script (or possibly Perl, I can't remember) to trim it down to size
17:16:52 <asiekierka> Yes it is.
17:16:57 <tusho> asiekierka: so refactor it
17:17:00 <ais523> tusho: Befunge is quite hard to modify retroactively
17:17:10 <ais523> because often you haven't left enough space for whatever you want to add
17:17:14 <tusho> ais523: he has space.
17:17:26 <asiekierka> I do, but it's hard to restructure all the code.
17:17:28 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/EvOysD42.html
17:17:33 <asiekierka> That's what it looks like now
17:17:38 <asiekierka> I have a lot of space
17:17:42 <asiekierka> But it just looks like a mess
17:17:44 <tusho> looks fine to me
17:17:44 <dogface_> A compiler from Unlambda to 80x24 Befunge.
17:19:42 <asiekierka> Hopefully i'm nearly done with fixing it, i have the snippet, now paste it in all 3 places
17:19:55 <asiekierka> the snippet as in, the part of code to add everywhere
17:20:26 <ais523> dogface_: impossible in general, Unlambda's TC and Befunge-93 isn't
17:20:45 <asiekierka> So how is it possible i'm nearly done with a Cyclic Tag implementation
17:20:48 <AnMaster> befunge-98 is TC
17:20:57 <asiekierka> No implementation on the universe is turing complete anyway
17:21:01 <tusho> ais523: it is possible.
17:21:04 <tusho> he just has limits
17:21:15 <ais523> that's why I said "in general"
17:21:20 <AnMaster> ais523, you could fake it by connecting input to output for IO
17:21:24 <AnMaster> in 93
17:21:29 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, IIRC that's how Malbolge-T works
17:21:36 <AnMaster> yep
17:21:57 <ais523> if you output character code 59048 it backs the last char of the output into the first char of the input
17:22:02 <dogface_> ais523: then the compiler should either give you the program or tell you it can't be done.
17:22:04 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway Funge-98 is turing complete then, it got file IO
17:22:05 <ais523> so doing it repeated times lets you read further back in your own output
17:22:10 <dogface_> Or else run forever, looking for a solution.
17:22:37 <ais523> AnMaster: unfortunately, not quite, as the files are limited in size and the filenames are limited in length
17:22:51 <AnMaster> ais523, well that depends on platform
17:22:58 <AnMaster> ais523, same as for C
17:23:17 <ais523> hmm... actually, maybe the filenames aren't limited in length
17:23:23 <ais523> although filesize is limited to the size of fungespace
17:23:51 <ais523> filenames have to be stored on the stack, and as they're 0gnirts it might be possible to get some sort of bootstrapping up where you generated ever longer filenames using ever more files to store your temporary data
17:25:26 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway assuming filesystem is infinite then you could at least make size of funge space (2^32 * 2^32 for example) * 2^32 bytes of filename (a lot of possible combinations)
17:25:34 <AnMaster> so TC "for all practical purposes"
17:25:41 <ais523> well, yes
17:25:44 <AnMaster> which I'd claim any 32-bit Funge-98 already is!
17:25:48 <ais523> I like to think about the general case, though...
17:25:59 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway Funge-93 is turing complete if you use bignums
17:26:01 <AnMaster> like efunge does
17:26:16 <AnMaster> bignums, because that is what erlang use
17:36:44 <asiekierka> I don't remember whether my code works
17:36:54 <asiekierka> But i'll put it up because i'm tired of work on it
17:37:16 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/w0ZNlj53.html
17:37:18 <asiekierka> check it out
17:39:27 <asiekierka> and?
17:40:47 <asiekierka> AnMaster: funge space is 18446744073709551616 bytes?
17:41:12 -!- tusho has changed nick to tusho|away.
17:41:23 <ais523> most Befunge programs aren't written to use bignums and store data Minsky-machine-style though
17:41:56 <asiekierka> ais523: how's my code thing
17:42:04 <asiekierka> the Cyclic Tag untested interpreter
17:42:09 <asiekierka> i don't even know if it's all ok
17:42:15 <ais523> asiekierka: I'm not really in a mood to try to read it right now
17:42:21 <ais523> I'm pretty tired, for one thing
17:42:28 <asiekierka> it's a mess, right?
17:42:31 <asiekierka> or is it not
17:42:44 <ais523> I don't know, Befunge code often looks like that whether or not it's well-written
17:43:09 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well in befunge
17:43:47 <AnMaster> it is 2^32 * 2^32
17:43:54 <AnMaster> logically
17:44:01 <asiekierka> of addressible space
17:44:01 <AnMaster> err, the number is signed
17:44:05 <AnMaster> so that means
17:44:11 <AnMaster> -1?
17:44:19 <AnMaster> or not?
17:44:28 <asiekierka> my number is unsigned
17:44:31 <AnMaster> in funge-98 negative funge space is valid
17:44:32 <asiekierka> well
17:44:34 <ais523> 2^32 == 0 on a 32 bit system
17:44:42 <asiekierka> i use calc.exe
17:44:43 <asiekierka> :P
17:44:43 <AnMaster> as in -43,-13
17:44:44 <asiekierka> also
17:44:45 <AnMaster> or whatever
17:44:54 <asiekierka> if we don't count negative space
17:44:57 <asiekierka> we still get 4611686018427387904 bytes
17:45:01 <AnMaster> err
17:45:08 <AnMaster> it is a signed 32-bit number for each dimension
17:45:15 <ais523> asiekierka: it's known that there's a bug in calc.exe, someone found it when testing for the OMGWTF competition but forgot how to reproduce it
17:45:15 <asiekierka> or 4294967296 terabytes
17:45:18 <AnMaster> assuming a 32-bit interpreter
17:45:24 <ais523> which is annoying because now nobody knows what it is
17:45:28 <AnMaster> asiekierka, oh I got a 64-bit funge interpreter here btw
17:46:00 <asiekierka> So it's 4096 exabytes of addressible space if we don't count negative :O
17:46:19 <AnMaster> asiekierka, something like that yeah
17:46:22 <ais523> exbibytes, surely?
17:46:23 <AnMaster> so 4 times that
17:46:28 <AnMaster> for each quadrant
17:46:28 <asiekierka> yeah
17:46:33 <asiekierka> 16384 exabytes
17:46:33 <ais523> when you're up to exa vs. exbi it makes a lot of difference
17:46:34 <asiekierka> oh wait
17:46:38 <asiekierka> what's after exabytes
17:46:45 <ais523> yottabytes?
17:46:47 <AnMaster> (%i2) 2 ^ 32 * 2 ^ 32 ;
17:46:47 <AnMaster> (%o2) 18446744073709551616
17:46:50 <ais523> I'm not sure but that seems right
17:46:52 <AnMaster> that is what maxima gives me
17:46:56 <asiekierka> 16 yottabytes
17:47:02 <asiekierka> oh my god
17:47:09 <asiekierka> or yotbibytes
17:47:10 <AnMaster> well...
17:47:15 <AnMaster> asiekierka, is that still 32-bit one?
17:47:28 <asiekierka> it's the 32-bit one counting negatives
17:47:37 <asiekierka> 2^32 * 2^32
17:47:38 <asiekierka> of course
17:47:48 <AnMaster> (%i4) ( 2 ^ 32 * 2 ^ 32 ) * 4 ;
17:47:48 <AnMaster> (%o4) 73786976294838206464
17:47:51 <AnMaster> hm
17:47:54 <AnMaster> that is number of bytes
17:48:02 <AnMaster> can't get it to "4611686018427387904" at all
17:48:06 <asiekierka> i got it
17:48:07 <asiekierka> by
17:48:15 <asiekierka> (2 ^ 31 * 2 ^ 31)
17:48:21 <asiekierka> since i was not counting negative numbers
17:48:22 <AnMaster> -1?
17:48:35 <AnMaster> wait not -1
17:48:37 <asiekierka> nope
17:48:43 <AnMaster> as 0 is in positive quadrant
17:48:58 <AnMaster> (%i6) ( ( 2 ^ 64 ) * ( 2 ^ 64 ) ) * 8 ;
17:48:58 <AnMaster> (%o6) 2722258935367507707706996859454145691648
17:49:00 <AnMaster> for a 64-bit funge
17:49:02 <AnMaster> :D
17:49:12 <asiekierka> also
17:49:17 <asiekierka> what if we'd play a roleplay?
17:49:19 <AnMaster> asiekierka, my cfunge allows it to be 64-bit at compile time
17:49:34 <AnMaster> that is compile time of interpreter
17:49:37 <asiekierka> a roleplay where... maybe uh... we're in a world where all esolangs control the universe.
17:49:48 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what is the time over there?
17:49:51 <AnMaster> 24h please
17:49:55 <AnMaster> I can't think in am/pm
17:49:56 <asiekierka> 18:49
17:49:59 <asiekierka> I ca
17:50:01 <asiekierka> I can
17:50:02 <AnMaster> well
17:50:10 <asiekierka> I should make a am/pm->24h converter in BF or Befunge
17:50:14 <AnMaster> seems too early for being *that* silly then ;P
17:50:20 <AnMaster> asiekierka, rather easy
17:50:30 <asiekierka> but oh well
17:50:38 <asiekierka> Let's just play that roleplay, shall we?
17:50:50 <asiekierka> a roleplay where... maybe uh... we're in a world where all esolangs control the universe. You can "program" the universe in this world.
17:50:56 <AnMaster> read number, read 2 chars (am or pm), select depending on a or p if you just output or add 12 and then output
17:51:02 <ais523> asiekierka: sounds great
17:51:11 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I'd opt out
17:51:22 <ais523> I had a nightmarish thing last night where some terrorists had effectively sandboxed the universe
17:51:34 <AnMaster> I don't actually code much in esolangs, I normally code interpreters for esolangs in non-esolangs
17:51:36 <ais523> thus were capable of allowing/preventing anything they liked happening more or less
17:51:37 <AnMaster> if you see what I mean
17:51:43 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I see what you mean
17:52:41 <AnMaster> ais523, would implementing intercal in a functional language be much harder than in a non-functional one?
17:52:47 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think so
17:52:53 <ais523> possibly it would even be easie
17:52:56 <ais523> s/$/r/
17:53:01 <AnMaster> even?
17:53:09 <AnMaster> it is hard to parse!
17:53:25 <AnMaster> though erlang got a parser generator called yrl
17:53:39 <ais523> AnMaster: in general functional langs can handle parsing better than imperative langs
17:53:41 <AnMaster> or something like that
17:53:42 <asiekierka> Well
17:53:43 <asiekierka> you know
17:53:48 <asiekierka> I think i'll allow real langs too
17:53:49 <ais523> although declarative langs lead to parsers which are easier to read but slower
17:53:53 <AnMaster> ah yecc
17:53:54 <AnMaster> that is it
17:54:00 <AnMaster> yrl is the file extension
17:54:03 <ais523> Haskell's Parsec library is effectively declarative in the way it works
17:54:06 <AnMaster> MODULE
17:54:06 <AnMaster> yecc - LALR-1 Parser Generator
17:54:15 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
17:54:19 <ais523> oh and INTERCAL isn't quite LALR-1
17:54:21 <ais523> or even LR-1
17:54:23 <ais523> it is almost
17:54:25 <asiekierka> ok
17:54:27 <asiekierka> will we play it!?
17:54:30 <asiekierka> that roleplay
17:54:31 <ais523> but there are a few weirdnesses with ti
17:54:31 <asiekierka> finally
17:54:31 <AnMaster> ais523, what are those? I don't know really
17:54:33 <ais523> s/ti/it/
17:54:34 <asiekierka> Please
17:54:38 <ais523> AnMaster: parser models
17:54:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I see, yacc is LALR-1?
17:54:55 <asiekierka> Who's going to play the roleplay (i allowed real langs too), raise a hand
17:54:57 * asiekierka raises a hand
17:54:59 <ais523> basically LR(1) means that you can always parse the lang based on what you've seen so far and the next character
17:55:00 <AnMaster> according to man page it is
17:55:06 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, it is
17:55:16 <asiekierka> hello?
17:55:18 <AnMaster> ais523, same for bison then?
17:55:20 <ais523> hi asiekierka
17:55:29 <AnMaster> ais523, yet you use those to parse it?
17:55:34 <asiekierka> Ok
17:55:39 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, although bison also allows ELR(1) (I think that's what its called) which can parse anything but is inefficient on things that aren't LR(1)
17:55:51 <ais523> AnMaster: well, what I do is I put some of the parsing in the lexer
17:55:56 <asiekierka> :/
17:56:00 <asiekierka> :/
17:56:09 <ais523> bison sets flags which causes the lexer to lex differently
17:56:13 <AnMaster> ais523, there is no lexer generator for erlang I think
17:56:19 <ais523> and I maintain a stack of paren states by hand
17:56:35 <ais523> and that's enough to make the lang LR(1) and LALR(1) from the parser's point of view
17:56:56 <ais523> (LALR(1) is an optimisation of LR(1), which doesn't work on as many langs but is faster on the ones where it does, and is normally good enough in practice)
17:56:57 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well, I got no idea about that game
17:57:12 <AnMaster> ais523, what doesn't it work on then?
17:57:13 <AnMaster> C?
17:57:35 <ais523> AnMaster: no, the things which are LALR(1) and not LR(1) are mostly pathological
17:57:42 <ais523> whoops, got that backwards
17:57:50 <AnMaster> ais523, ah like INTERCAL?
17:57:51 <ais523> I mean the things that are LR(1) and not LALR(1) are mostly pathological
17:57:55 <ais523> AnMaster: INTERCAL is neither
17:58:00 <ais523> due to its array syntax
17:58:03 <AnMaster> ais523, which is even worse?
17:58:04 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:58:06 <ais523> yes
17:58:12 <ais523> in fact it isn't even LR(n) for any finite n
17:58:19 <AnMaster> eh?
17:58:19 <ais523> I went and proved that and wrote a little essay about it
17:58:29 <AnMaster> what does the n mean?
17:58:36 <ais523> AnMaster: lookahead amount
17:58:46 <ais523> you need infinite lookahead to parse INTERCAL's array syntax in general
17:59:08 <AnMaster> well what is ELR then?
17:59:10 <ais523> however there's a restriction in the spec that programmers aren't allowed to write array expressions that require more than one char lookahead to parse
17:59:17 <ais523> that was actually in the INTERCAL spec...
17:59:22 <ais523> AnMaster: LR(1) + backtracking, I think
17:59:31 <ais523> or not exactly backtracking as I think it multithreads
17:59:33 -!- asiekierka has joined.
17:59:35 <ais523> rather than backtracks
17:59:36 <asiekierka> ok back
17:59:38 <ais523> but it comes to the same thing
17:59:41 <AnMaster> ok so what are these array expressions that are a problem?
17:59:41 <asiekierka> So
17:59:47 <asiekierka> when we will get to the roleplay?
17:59:57 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I won't take part in it
18:00:04 <ais523> asiekierka: I have no idea what you're going on about really, I don't see how you could easily roleplay something like that
18:00:05 <asiekierka> But there are real langs too
18:00:06 -!- tusho|away has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:00:09 <asiekierka> and it's about virtually everything
18:00:12 <asiekierka> No
18:00:13 <asiekierka> no rules
18:00:17 <asiekierka> It's just to HAVE FUN.
18:00:23 <asiekierka> }}|{{
18:00:27 <ais523> asiekierka: I really don't understand what you're trying to do
18:00:34 <asiekierka> A roleplay
18:00:37 <asiekierka> With no rules
18:00:39 <asiekierka> We just walk around and do stuff
18:00:41 <asiekierka> and create stuff.
18:00:44 <ais523> yes, but those traditionally work very badly
18:00:44 <asiekierka> Yes, we create stuff.
18:00:50 <asiekierka> One didn't work out as bad
18:00:52 <asiekierka> i made tons of them
18:00:56 <asiekierka> and they turned out good
18:01:00 <ais523> you may as well make it a coderoleplay if you're doing it with programming langs
18:01:04 <ais523> and you'll end up inventing Second Life
18:01:31 <asiekierka> in Befunge-98
18:01:39 <AnMaster> "k on @ SHALL only kill the current IP in concurrent Funge." or "k on @ MUST only kill the current IP in concurrent Funge."
18:01:40 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
18:02:00 <ais523> SHALL and MUST are equivalent in specs IIRC, I'm more used to SHALL
18:02:09 <AnMaster> ais523, yes they are the same
18:02:16 <AnMaster> but which is best English
18:02:19 <AnMaster> that is what I wonder
18:02:29 <ais523> they're both correct in English, MUST is heard more often in conversations
18:02:34 <AnMaster> ok
18:02:54 <ais523> SHALL has an implication of future-tense about it when said casually, although that isn't part of its meaning
18:03:33 <asiekierka> You know
18:03:37 <asiekierka> I just want to have fun.
18:03:39 <asiekierka> Roleplay around.
18:03:42 <asiekierka> A lot
18:05:08 <AnMaster> ais523, % on negative numbers is undefined in funge-98, this led to the MODU fingerprint
18:05:16 <AnMaster> should it be well defined in 108?
18:05:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and MikeRiley too ^
18:05:28 <ais523> probably, define it the same way as C99 i suggest
18:05:40 <AnMaster> well I'm not sure everyone will be happy with that
18:05:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and MikeRiley: PING
18:06:13 <ais523> because the C standardisation committee had the same problem, and whatever solution they settled on is likely to have been chosen for a good reason
18:07:37 <MikeRiley> what what what???
18:07:45 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, % for negative numbers
18:07:48 <ais523> MikeRiley: % with negative numbers
18:07:51 <AnMaster> the reason for MODU
18:07:52 <MikeRiley> i think it should be defined...
18:08:00 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, right, question is, to what
18:08:04 <MikeRiley> even MODU was not well enough defined...
18:08:16 <AnMaster> true
18:08:21 <AnMaster> same way as C99?
18:08:25 <AnMaster> that is what I'd select
18:08:32 <MikeRiley> that is what i would select as well...
18:08:32 <AnMaster> but I need your and Deewiant's input on this
18:08:55 <MikeRiley> the C99 one makes more sense to me,,,,
18:09:54 <AnMaster> 1. Remainder by zero is subject to the same rules as division by zero. This rules take priority over rule two.
18:09:55 <AnMaster> 2. If either argument is negative, the result should be the same as in C99.
18:09:58 <AnMaster> what about that?
18:10:14 <ais523> sounds good
18:10:22 <ais523> incidentally, x/0 is just 0 nowadays?
18:10:25 <AnMaster> takes
18:10:27 <AnMaster> not take?
18:10:28 <AnMaster> err
18:10:29 <AnMaster> and rule
18:10:37 <AnMaster> "This rule takes priority over rule two."
18:10:38 <AnMaster> even
18:10:40 <ais523> yes, that's better
18:10:51 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes x/0 is 0 in Funge-98 and later
18:10:54 <ais523> I admit to rather liking the Befunge-93 ask-the-user-on-division-by-zero
18:10:58 <ais523> but it isn't very professional
18:10:59 <AnMaster> in funge-93 it was "ask user"
18:11:11 <ais523> and Funge /looks/ like a professional esolang
18:11:15 <ais523> even though there is no such thing
18:11:18 <AnMaster> hm efunge implements "result=0"
18:11:23 <AnMaster> for % and /
18:11:29 <AnMaster> no idea what it does for negative numbres
18:11:32 <AnMaster> numbers*
18:11:43 <AnMaster> cfunge *is* C99, so it will do C99 % in that case
18:12:16 <AnMaster> ais523, even better, you could give a funny message on it in 93
18:12:20 <AnMaster> something like:
18:12:52 <AnMaster> "Oops, we hit a division by zero (12/0), hm what should we use here?"
18:12:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: POING
18:13:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so what about this for % in 108:
18:13:06 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> 1. Remainder by zero is subject to the same rules as division by zero. This rules take priority over rule two.
18:13:06 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> 2. If either argument is negative, the result should be the same as in C99.
18:13:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: might as well define it, I don't see why not
18:13:12 <AnMaster> I fixed grammer
18:13:16 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> "This rule takes priority over rule two."
18:13:22 <Deewiant> I think C99 has it defined the wrong way
18:13:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh? what way do you prefer?
18:14:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ?
18:14:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so that the result is always positive
18:14:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm why?
18:14:49 <AnMaster> ais523, me and MikeRiley are all for C99 way
18:14:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I guess this is because D does "always positive"?
18:15:04 <MikeRiley> the c99 way i think is reasonable...
18:15:11 <Deewiant> I think D is implementation-defined actually, not sure
18:15:52 <AnMaster> erlang seems to use C99 way
18:15:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: in number theory, it's the convention that it's always positive
18:16:09 <ais523> Deewiant: always positive with negative first argument in number theory
18:16:17 <ais523> but number theory doesn't use a negative second argument
18:16:19 <Deewiant> in programming languages, it tends to be the same sign of the dividend/divisor
18:16:47 <Deewiant> ais523: hmm, that's a point
18:17:08 <AnMaster> C99 seems to bascially x%abs(y)
18:17:15 <AnMaster> and use the sign of x
18:17:19 <AnMaster> or?
18:17:21 <Deewiant> in any case I'd prefer choosing the sign of the divisor over that of the dividend
18:17:26 <ais523> AnMaster: that seems wrong, surely
18:17:30 <Deewiant> i.e. the sign of y in that case
18:17:32 <AnMaster> err maybe I'm wrong then
18:17:47 -!- olsner has joined.
18:19:34 <AnMaster> $ ./a.out
18:19:34 <AnMaster> -3 % 2 = -1
18:19:34 <AnMaster> -3 % -2 = -1
18:19:34 <AnMaster> 3 % -2 = 1
18:19:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: is the funge frontend protocol meant to be fully textual? e.g. the integer 64 is sent as 0x36 0x34 and not 0x40
18:19:47 <ais523> AnMaster: oh dear, that certainly looks wrong to me
18:19:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: the first should be 1 IMO
18:19:58 <AnMaster> ais523, could be a GCC bug?
18:20:02 * ais523 agrees with Deewiant, that's what it is in number theory
18:20:04 <ais523> AnMaster: I doubt it
18:20:29 <asiekierka> oh, does anyone want to check http://rafb.net/p/w0ZNlj53.html - that befunge untested Cyclic Tag interpreter
18:20:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the protocol is fully textual yes apart from the funge space dump thing iirc
18:20:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or maybe that one too?
18:20:48 <AnMaster> don't remember
18:20:54 <AnMaster> anyway it is simply easier to parse
18:21:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I don't know, but in any case I think you should state this explicitly, it wasn't completely clear to me :-)
18:21:31 <Deewiant> FSPACEDUMP looks to be textual as well
18:21:40 <AnMaster> ok
18:21:44 <Deewiant> unless "as an integer" means something different
18:21:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you are actually implementing it?
18:21:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it is probably textual then
18:22:05 <Deewiant> just came to mind
18:22:11 <Deewiant> as I was reading it and pondering
18:22:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I consider the front end protocol more or less something I don't plan to do now
18:22:33 <AnMaster> maybe sometime in the future
18:22:44 <AnMaster> at least "put on hold from my side"
18:22:53 <asiekierka> I need to make Befunge-64
18:22:59 <AnMaster> asiekierka, eh?
18:23:00 <asiekierka> As in, a version of befunge-93 for the c64
18:23:04 <AnMaster> ah
18:23:04 <Deewiant> then maybe I should implement it, so that I can set up a de facto standard which you need to follow when you write the spec ;-)
18:23:09 <asiekierka> For one thing, the boardsize is limited to 40x25
18:23:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, very funny :P
18:23:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but yes it is fully textual
18:23:49 <asiekierka> Another, there's a command s, to move the value that's on top of the stack to the very bottom of the stack
18:23:51 <AnMaster> 40?
18:24:07 <asiekierka> and q, to remove the value from the very bottom of the stack
18:24:13 <asiekierka> Yes
18:24:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well, I doubt you'd be so stupid as to do completely the opposite to every choice I'd make, so it's not a bad plan ;-)
18:24:19 <asiekierka> C64's screen resolution is 40x25
18:24:24 <ais523> <asiekierka> Another, there's a command s, to move the value that's on top of the stack to the very bottom of the stack
18:24:28 <ais523> does that make Befunge TC?
18:24:32 <ais523> Befunge-93, that is?
18:24:32 <asiekierka> nopr
18:24:37 <asiekierka> nope, i think
18:24:42 <asiekierka> It only makes a possibility
18:24:44 <ais523> ah, yes, it does I think
18:24:48 <asiekierka> whoah
18:24:49 <asiekierka> how?
18:25:02 <asiekierka> There's still no unbounded storage
18:25:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ask me if stuff is unclear please
18:25:03 <ais523> because you can reserve a special sentinel value to separate stacks
18:25:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: certainly
18:25:12 <ais523> and use multiple stacks as unbounded storage
18:25:21 <asiekierka> But you can only have a single 4KB stack
18:25:22 <ais523> rotating between stacks by repeatedly using s until you hit the sentinel
18:25:31 <ais523> asiekierka: well if there's a 4KB limit it isn't TC
18:25:38 <asiekierka> but that's the limit of the c64
18:25:44 <asiekierka> there's only 4KB free ram while using C64 Basic
18:25:50 <ais523> but if the stack is unbounded, which it is in Befunge-93 in theory, then it's TC with your s instructio
18:25:54 <AnMaster> asiekierka, also s is a bad thing to select
18:26:08 <asiekierka> why
18:26:11 <AnMaster> like all other printable chars below 127 they are already in use in 98
18:26:23 <AnMaster> asiekierka, also note you should use ASCII
18:26:29 <asiekierka> Possible.
18:26:31 <AnMaster> because it is code point 32 that is space
18:26:39 <AnMaster> even if it doesn't look like a space on the local system
18:26:40 <asiekierka> I can put a custom charset for the c64
18:26:44 <AnMaster> the 98 specs say so clearly
18:26:54 <asiekierka> you can put a custom 256-char charset on the c64
18:26:57 <AnMaster> ok
18:27:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: why is s a bad choice if he's doing Befunge-93
18:27:09 <AnMaster> hm
18:27:11 <Deewiant> it doesn't matter
18:27:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok good point
18:27:18 <AnMaster> for 93 it doesn't matter
18:28:01 <asiekierka> Also, i'd allow 80x25 size
18:28:06 <AnMaster> asiekierka, anyway messing with the bottom of the stack will make it slow
18:28:06 <asiekierka> either 40x25 or 80x25
18:28:18 <AnMaster> asiekierka, larger space is not an issue if it is unused
18:28:20 <asiekierka> Nope if i start the stack at the middle
18:28:26 <asiekierka> And just change the stack pointer value
18:28:37 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what if you need more than what you can fit on one side?
18:28:48 <AnMaster> you will need to reallocate the stack then
18:28:52 <asiekierka> It wouldn't get saved then.
18:29:01 <AnMaster> asiekierka, eh?
18:29:02 <asiekierka> Or something else
18:29:06 <asiekierka> I can use reallocation anyway
18:29:07 <AnMaster> wouldn't you reallocate the stack?
18:29:14 <asiekierka> but it'll make befunge64 a pain to use
18:29:45 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well start in the middle, and reallocate if you hit either edge and there is free space at the other edge
18:29:47 <asiekierka> Also, where can i play irc roleplays?
18:30:10 <ais523> asiekierka: no idea, try searching for them on the web, there's got to be one somewhere
18:30:18 <asiekierka> but not a "ircbot irc roleplay"
18:30:22 <asiekierka> a "freestyle irc roleplay"
18:30:23 -!- tusho has joined.
18:30:32 <ais523> wb tusho
18:30:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: are all errors meant to be sendable from either end? RANGE and FILEERR seem like they could only come from the interpreter
18:30:56 <tusho> When did I disco?
18:31:06 <asiekierka> Oh
18:31:11 <asiekierka> i don't need to reallocate
18:31:13 <asiekierka> i can do
18:31:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm I'd need to check that
18:31:24 <asiekierka> e - replace the last value on the stack with the current error code
18:31:36 <tusho> wish I could learn languages as fast as asiekierka :P
18:31:39 <tusho> whatcha doin now
18:32:04 <asiekierka> want to play a freestyle irc roleplay; w/o an irc bot
18:32:13 <ais523> optbot: hi
18:32:14 <optbot> ais523: gimp and inkscape
18:32:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed they can probably only come from the interpreter
18:32:44 <tusho> optbot: you should be in more channels shoudln't you
18:32:44 <optbot> tusho: You should be in a quantum superposition of dancing and not dancing!
18:32:57 <ais523> optbot: good counter
18:32:57 <optbot> ais523: What?
18:33:04 <AnMaster> ais523, Deewiant, by the way I got an interesting idea, *real* concurrent funge, like concurrency in erlang
18:33:17 <AnMaster> could be a pretty interesting fingerprint
18:33:28 <tusho> i guess optbot is saying that it's impossible for him to be in multiple channels like that
18:33:29 <optbot> tusho: yes
18:33:52 <AnMaster> wait
18:33:52 <asiekierka> why is he intelligent now
18:33:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and how would that work
18:33:57 <AnMaster> that made *sense*
18:34:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not sure
18:34:02 <ais523> incidentally, optbot, I like the topic
18:34:02 <optbot> ais523: NAND is the only operator you ever need.
18:34:04 <AnMaster> just an idea
18:34:08 <Deewiant> I've thought about "real" concurrency in funge
18:34:20 <Deewiant> but it seems to me the current model is as concurrent as you can get
18:34:23 <tusho> AnMaster: asiekierka: he has operating hours of intelligence
18:34:24 <tusho> I told you
18:34:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well distributed funge would be fun
18:34:37 <tusho> sometimes he makes perfect sense
18:34:45 <ais523> optbot: you do, don't you?
18:34:46 <optbot> ais523: how about we'll test its usefuless with the competition:
18:34:50 <tusho> xD
18:34:53 <asiekierka> optbot: What's the competition?
18:34:54 <optbot> asiekierka: yo
18:34:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: unless you want to have multiple threads executing in the interpreter, so that order of execution is undefined?
18:35:02 <asiekierka> optbot: No, but, what's the competition?
18:35:02 <optbot> asiekierka: nice of bc
18:35:06 <asiekierka> :(
18:35:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah
18:35:11 <asiekierka> the operation hour just ended
18:35:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: as for distributed, just make your CFFI and use MPI...
18:35:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but distributed funge *sounds* fun
18:35:20 <ais523> Deewiant: strangely, Threaded INTERCAL has 'ticks' too, at least in all known implementations
18:35:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nah, erlang style
18:35:36 <asiekierka> optbot: can you make sense?
18:35:36 <optbot> asiekierka: stillllll going
18:35:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what's the difference in style between erlang and MPI
18:35:44 <asiekierka> optbot: great.
18:35:44 <optbot> asiekierka: If you *insist* on doing the basic bootstrapping, you need to start with a system where you can input the individual bits yourself, and go up from there.
18:35:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't know MPI
18:35:53 <AnMaster> but does it use shared memory=
18:35:53 <asiekierka> optbot: oh, i see.
18:35:54 <optbot> asiekierka: !glass {M[m(_e)(Emote)!"is not!"(_e)e.?]}
18:35:54 <AnMaster> ?
18:35:58 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so why'd you say "nah, erlang style" :-P
18:35:59 <asiekierka> Whaaaatt?
18:36:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if it uses shared memory it will be different
18:36:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, it doesn't, Message Passing Interface
18:36:09 <AnMaster> ah
18:36:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, probably similar then
18:36:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and you know... we were talking distributed
18:36:25 <Deewiant> how exactly would you run distributed using shared memory
18:36:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, to the erlang program it all seems like they run on the same node
18:36:35 <AnMaster> it is all abstracted away
18:36:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: or rather, one can't tell the difference
18:36:43 <Deewiant> same in MPI
18:36:55 <AnMaster> well one can, by using node()
18:36:57 <Deewiant> although I think version 2 has something for finding out if they're on the same machine or not
18:37:03 <Deewiant> not sure
18:37:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there are ways to find out in erlang
18:37:19 <Deewiant> but anyhoo, I think they're quite similar in style
18:37:32 <AnMaster> and even way to use a specific system
18:37:33 <Deewiant> or paradigm, whatever
18:37:37 <AnMaster> but you don't need it
18:37:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, probably
18:37:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway concurrency work the same way in erlang
18:37:52 <AnMaster> message passing
18:37:53 <asiekierka> optbot: do you love someone?
18:37:53 <optbot> asiekierka: I thought that Easel, ESOapi or the like would be used for the os
18:38:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes, I know
18:38:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway distributed funge *sounds* fun, even if it can't be done
18:38:25 <AnMaster> it it worth thinking about imo
18:38:30 <asiekierka> optbot: do you love someone?
18:38:31 <optbot> asiekierka: The internet lacks a Guy Fawkes smiley.
18:38:37 <asiekierka> optbot: do you love Guy Fawkes?
18:38:38 <optbot> asiekierka: Though I use vim all the time (in the vim-emacs war, there is only one), I don't know that I would qualify it as "good" in the modern world :)
18:38:49 <asiekierka> optbot: by it, you mean him?
18:38:49 <Deewiant> optbot: !
18:38:49 <optbot> asiekierka: there's just pronouns and noun genders, so i don't see how you could have less than finnish
18:38:49 <optbot> Deewiant: G'night (or morning) everyone.
18:38:59 <AnMaster> optbot, emacs!
18:38:59 <optbot> AnMaster: um
18:39:03 <asiekierka> optbot: what?
18:39:03 <optbot> asiekierka: "how's t going"?
18:39:03 <Deewiant> optbot: mu
18:39:03 <optbot> Deewiant: lCons
18:39:10 <asiekierka> optbot: deewiant
18:39:10 <optbot> asiekierka: Fuck you reader of my code
18:39:10 <AnMaster> optbot, yes emacs is better than vim!
18:39:10 <optbot> AnMaster: Passed validation
18:39:11 <Deewiant> optbot: rSnoc
18:39:11 <optbot> Deewiant: ~exec self.raw("QUIT :Excess Flood")
18:39:14 <AnMaster> :D
18:39:18 <asiekierka> optbot, ur cool
18:39:18 <optbot> asiekierka: I've gotten 5 applications from them. . .
18:39:19 <asiekierka> optbot, ur cool
18:39:19 <asiekierka> optbot, ur cool
18:39:19 <optbot> asiekierka: up to you. do you want your real name in the source code of befunge interpreters? :-P
18:39:19 <optbot> asiekierka: OK I'll implement selector
18:39:20 <asiekierka> optbot, ur cool
18:39:20 <asiekierka> optbot, ur cool
18:39:20 <asiekierka> optbot, ur cool
18:39:20 <optbot> asiekierka: My bfgolf code is, in fact, 31 characters.
18:39:20 <optbot> asiekierka: MWAHAHAHA SOON MY CREATION IS COMPLETE
18:39:20 <optbot> asiekierka: We can add a character to be `a', and accented it becomes ``an''.
18:39:21 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> optbot, yes emacs is better than vim! <optbot> AnMaster: Passed validation
18:39:22 <optbot> AnMaster: that was just the wrong channel :P
18:39:23 <Deewiant> optbot!
18:39:24 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Argh..
18:39:30 <AnMaster> asiekierka, stop the spam please
18:39:30 <asiekierka> optbot!
18:39:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i'm still wondering where the conversation with oerjan was....
18:39:36 <asiekierka> optbot!
18:39:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | no please dont.
18:39:42 <tusho> asiekierka: stop
18:39:44 <AnMaster> asiekierka, stop spamming please
18:39:46 <tusho> or I will make optbot ignore you
18:39:46 <optbot> tusho: abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmnt_bot
18:39:51 <tusho> learn your goddamn limits
18:39:57 <bsmntbombdood> what
18:40:01 <asiekierka> i stopped!
18:40:04 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: asiekierka was spamming
18:40:06 <tusho> like always
18:40:12 <tusho> asiekierka: you just don't know _when_ to stop
18:40:15 <asiekierka> :/
18:40:16 -!- MikeRiley has quit ("Leaving").
18:40:18 <asiekierka> ehird, that was mean
18:40:22 <tusho> no it wasn't
18:40:26 <asiekierka> yes it was
18:40:28 <asiekierka> as alays
18:40:31 <asiekierka> always*
18:40:40 <tusho> "you don't know when to stop" is a statement of fact and I think after that most here will agree
18:40:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, what is team in funge? it is mentioned in y in funge-98, but I can't find any info on it
18:40:53 <asiekierka> agreed
18:40:56 <asiekierka> with ehird
18:41:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "1 cell containing a unique team number for the current IP (ip)"
18:41:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Spelling out:.
18:41:33 * tusho will never understand why asiekierka will say I'm wrong, then I'll say why I said something, then he agrees with it (and it is always criticism of him)
18:41:37 * tusho shrugs
18:41:43 <ais523> AnMaster: not sure, but to me it seemed to imply some sort of code-wars style competition where multiple programs were busy trying to overwrite each other, but with teammates
18:41:58 <ais523> possibly that's too fanciful, but it sounds like a great idea
18:41:59 <ais523> optbot!
18:41:59 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | The big ones are Brainfuck, Befunge and Intercal..
18:42:05 <AnMaster> ais523, "Only significant for NetFunge, BeGlad, and the like."
18:42:14 <ais523> wow, we have a meaningful topic for once
18:42:21 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that line was what got me thinking
18:42:37 <fizzie> ITYM corewars; that's the program-overwriting game.
18:42:45 <asiekierka> i like corewars
18:42:47 <ais523> fizzie: yes, that's it
18:43:00 <ais523> there's FYB as a Brainfuck version but it's broken, it has a degenerate strategy
18:43:19 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't find any info on those
18:43:39 <tusho> ais523: i started to make BeYourFunge a while back
18:43:44 <ais523> AnMaster: esoprogramming stuff tends to disappear quickly, that's the problem
18:43:47 <tusho> befunge-93 wars
18:44:00 <AnMaster> ais523, I'll have to mail Pressy then...
18:44:04 <ais523> tusho: would probably work better than the Brainfuck version, and Befunge-93 is good as it would help to keep the playfield small
18:44:08 <ais523> which is important
18:44:14 <tusho> AnMaster: gregorr made FYB
18:44:18 <ais523> I suggest you just use regular Befunge-93, no modifications
18:44:19 <tusho> (FuckYorBrane)
18:44:26 <AnMaster> tusho, err...
18:44:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that is the only mention of teams I have found, ask Chris
18:44:38 <AnMaster> tusho, what?
18:44:38 <ais523> each program is 40x25, and each program's fungespace is the other's upside-down
18:44:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm
18:44:53 <Deewiant> I was just thinking of corewars in befunge a while ago
18:45:04 <Deewiant> don't think it would work out too well
18:45:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but is that what it is?
18:45:08 <ais523> and you win by getting the other program to execute @
18:45:20 <AnMaster> ais523, you need to disallow q then...
18:45:24 <ais523> AnMaster: basically multiple programs/processes running at the same time, trying to overwrite each other
18:45:26 <ais523> AnMaster: in Befunge-93?
18:45:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: like said, I only know what the spec says, which is to say, nothing
18:45:39 <AnMaster> ais523, if you want multiple programs on each side?
18:45:53 <Deewiant> hmm, befunge-93 instructions only might even make it meaningful
18:45:54 <ais523> AnMaster: then you'd need team numbers, presumanbly
18:46:12 <AnMaster> ais523, which means 98 or at least 93+threads
18:52:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: fatal ERRs shouldn't be responded to, right?
18:53:08 -!- Corun has joined.
18:53:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err let me check
18:53:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: say you get ERR MYCUSTOMERROR 1, in theory one would send "ERR UNSUPPARAM 1 what the hell kind of error is that"
18:53:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but since it's fatal anyway one it might make sense to not send anything
18:53:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so which is it? The PDF is silent :-)
18:54:06 <AnMaster> I think you should send "ERR UNSUPPARAM 1" to that then...
18:54:12 <AnMaster> and then close connection
18:54:26 <AnMaster> wait no
18:54:29 <AnMaster> probably not
18:54:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no reply needed since original one is fatal
18:55:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway custom error should have been negotiated with CAP first
18:55:41 <AnMaster> logically
18:56:15 <AnMaster> also the example for error got an error
18:56:26 <AnMaster> "ERR NOMEM 1 Could not allocate memory for setting cell."
18:56:29 <AnMaster> should be like that
18:56:49 <AnMaster> I will put up a fixed version before I go to bed, not now in case you got more questions
18:58:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes it should have been, but there's the possibility of bugs in either frontend or interpreter
18:59:22 <AnMaster> well since it is fatal it is probably pointless to send an error back
18:59:38 <Deewiant> alright
18:59:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, of course it may not be if there is a bug in the other end ;P
18:59:52 <ais523> "All errors except those not causing immediate termination of program execution are treated as fatal.2
18:59:53 <AnMaster> so it sends fatal when it shouldn't ;P
18:59:54 <ais523> s/2/"/
19:00:03 <AnMaster> ais523, eh?
19:00:06 <AnMaster> what is that from
19:00:07 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well that's its problem
19:00:11 <ais523> AnMaster: the original INTERCAL-72 manual
19:00:16 <AnMaster> ais523, oh um
19:00:28 <ais523> well, my memory of it, I might have misquoted slightly
19:00:29 <AnMaster> if it wasn't intercal I would say it was a typo
19:00:30 <AnMaster> :P
19:00:46 <ais523> AnMaster: no, it's just a double negative which leads to a tautology
19:00:56 <AnMaster> "tautology"?
19:01:16 <ais523> AnMaster: a statement that is true no matter what the state of the world due to its logical structure
19:01:21 <AnMaster> oh
19:01:24 <ais523> for instance "Either the sky is blue or the sky is not blue"
19:01:36 <AnMaster> or X = X?
19:01:52 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, unless X is NaN
19:02:06 <AnMaster> ais523, assuming algebra
19:02:11 <AnMaster> not computer arithmetics
19:02:41 <tusho> "longcat is long"
19:02:44 <tusho> an example closer to home :P
19:05:11 <AnMaster> tusho, eh?
19:05:26 <AnMaster> "closer to home"?
19:05:27 <tusho> AnMaster: tip - if I say something you don't understand ignore me
19:05:28 <tusho> :D
19:07:00 <oklopol> anyone here expert on movies?
19:07:07 <ais523> possibly, but I'm not
19:07:14 <oklopol> i'm kinda having a hard time searching a movie based on the outline of the plot.
19:07:17 <tusho> optbot: feather
19:07:21 <tusho> optbot: feather has that? cool
19:07:22 <optbot> tusho: I'm disappointed
19:10:04 <olsner> tusho: p(x) => p(x) for any x and p :P
19:10:36 <olsner> I mean... logical meme is logical
19:10:49 <tusho> haha
19:10:49 <ais523> olsner: what about p is the string "false; //" without the quotes
19:11:01 <asiekierka> optbot: What did you watch on youtube lately?
19:11:01 <optbot> asiekierka: Hi oerjan
19:11:02 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:11:02 <ais523> or can I not do comment injection into tautologies?
19:11:10 <asiekierka> The operating hours ended :(
19:11:14 <asiekierka> optbot: Aww.
19:11:14 <optbot> asiekierka: E!ps
19:11:19 <asiekierka> optbot: I knew it!
19:11:19 <optbot> asiekierka: do you return EXIT_SUCCESS; from main() on a successful termination?
19:11:19 <Deewiant> oklopol: you can, of course, ask anyway, in case somebody knows the movie. :-P
19:11:27 <ais523> wow, EsoBot hasn't been in here for ages
19:11:29 <asiekierka> optbot: your operating hours ended :(
19:11:29 <optbot> asiekierka: isn't it just a certain kind of corn?
19:11:38 <ais523> and E! was its command prefix IIRC
19:11:49 <tusho> ais523: the shell thing?
19:11:49 <oklopol> well, there's this monster that eats a town full of people about every 10000 years.
19:12:02 <ais523> tusho: I'm not entirely sure what it did, just Brainfuck I think
19:12:10 <tusho> ais523: no calamari's EsoBot was a shell
19:12:13 <tusho> a full virtualised system
19:12:15 <tusho> with root
19:12:17 <ais523> wow
19:12:17 <oklopol> movie starts with two women entering a town, and finding that everyone is dead
19:12:25 <oklopol> cuz, the monster has decided to eat them ofc
19:12:33 <tusho> ais523: he got rid of it because he threw a tizzy fit when we started messing with it and messing up the system
19:12:48 <oklopol> the monster looks kinda like a butterfly, and can shoot massive fireballs, apparently.
19:12:52 <ais523> tusho: what would people expect, this is #esotericc
19:12:55 <tusho> ais523: blabbing like "IT'S MEANT FOR TESTING NEW ESOLANGS!!!11" and we told him that we had perfectly good computers for that, but we liked EsoBot because it's fun to see how it can survive
19:12:56 <oklopol> you only see it once, very briefly
19:12:59 <ais523> well, without the extra c
19:13:06 <tusho> ais523: and he just whined about how we were immature and got rid of it
19:13:13 * tusho shrugs
19:13:28 <ais523> IIRC bsmntbombdood actively encouraged people to try to hack into the computer bsmnt_bot was running on via the bot
19:13:39 <bsmntbombdood> lol that's right
19:13:48 <tusho> hah that's great
19:13:54 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: can bsmnt_bot return?
19:13:57 <tusho> we need brainfuck and stuff
19:13:58 <tusho> and egobot is dead
19:14:09 <asiekierka> yeah
19:14:09 <bsmntbombdood> tusho: i've kind of, er, lost access to the server it ran on
19:14:16 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: I have a nice server
19:14:16 <tusho> :3
19:14:20 <AnMaster> tusho, what happened to egobot
19:14:23 <tusho> AnMaster: dunno
19:14:28 <AnMaster> who owned it?
19:14:33 <tusho> AnMaster: gregor
19:14:36 <ais523> GregorR I think
19:14:40 <AnMaster> where is he then?
19:14:41 <tusho> greEGOrr
19:14:45 <ais523> it was open-source, though
19:14:47 <tusho> AnMaster: a while back he was in prague
19:14:49 <oklopol> Deewiant: did you know it? :)
19:14:55 <ais523> and the source is in the Esoteric Files Archive
19:14:58 <Deewiant> oklopol: nope :-P
19:15:02 <Deewiant> oklopol: maybe one of http://www.imdb.com/keyword/giant-monster/giant-insect/ ?
19:15:02 <ais523> so someone could try to resurrect it, though
19:15:02 <tusho> ais523: i'd prefer to revive bsmnt_bot, though
19:15:07 <tusho> because we can make it behave the exact same
19:15:15 <ais523> it wasn't perfect, though, someone DOSed Gregor's server using EgoBot
19:15:16 <tusho> and it has more extensibility
19:15:28 -!- Iskr has left (?).
19:15:29 <asiekierka> I could try to host it
19:15:29 <AnMaster> tusho, maybe I'd code one in erlang ;P
19:15:31 <AnMaster> j/k
19:15:32 <asiekierka> But i have windows
19:15:33 <ais523> tusho: EgoBot was extensible, I added Underload to it using Keymaker's Underload-in-Brainfuck program
19:15:40 <tusho> ais523: but not via IRC
19:15:44 <asiekierka> and also i can't really do it at fast speed
19:15:45 <tusho> tell you what
19:15:46 <tusho> I'll put up both
19:15:53 <AnMaster> tusho, actually hooking up a esolang server to a bot framework would be easy in erlang
19:15:55 <asiekierka> 3kbps
19:15:57 <AnMaster> I mean adding new ones
19:15:58 <asiekierka> upload
19:15:58 -!- tusho has changed nick to bsmnt_bot.
19:16:02 <ais523> tusho: yes I did, I got it to load the Underload interpreter from pastebin by sending commands over IRC
19:16:04 <AnMaster> tusho, what do you think of that idea?
19:16:10 <bsmnt_bot> bsmntbombdood: if you want it back, drop this nick and gimme the source
19:16:10 <bsmnt_bot> :P
19:16:22 <AnMaster> bsmnt_bot, ^
19:16:24 <AnMaster> tusho ^
19:16:27 <AnMaster> ehird ^
19:16:28 <bsmnt_bot> AnMaster: botte is superior
19:16:30 <bsmnt_bot> :)
19:16:33 <bsmnt_bot> anyway.
19:16:37 <asiekierka> Also, does anyone have a shell-like utility for windows
19:16:37 * bsmnt_bot finds egobot source
19:16:38 <ais523> tusho: botte is nonexistent
19:16:40 <AnMaster> erlang irc bot + esolang servers
19:16:41 <asiekierka> so i can put up a shell on windows
19:16:42 <AnMaster> :D
19:16:43 <AnMaster> would
19:16:44 <bsmnt_bot> ais523: and so is AnMaster's
19:16:44 <AnMaster> rock
19:16:52 <AnMaster> indeed
19:16:53 <AnMaster> it is
19:16:56 <AnMaster> it was just an idea
19:16:57 <asiekierka> Is there a windows shell server?
19:17:02 <AnMaster> that I may never implement
19:17:03 <asiekierka> supporting irc
19:17:03 * bsmnt_bot sets up egobot and maybe bsmnt_bot if bsmntbombdood gives me the source
19:17:11 <AnMaster> I don't even pretend I do
19:17:14 <AnMaster> asiekierka, eww
19:17:20 <AnMaster> windows shell server!?
19:17:21 <AnMaster> wtf
19:17:28 <asiekierka> a shell server running on windows
19:17:34 <AnMaster> does that exist?
19:17:35 <asiekierka> or at least something to put an esolang bot
19:17:40 <AnMaster> it shouldn't exist
19:17:42 <asiekierka> Yeah, sorta, for telnet/ssh
19:17:43 <AnMaster> it is a horrible idea
19:17:49 <bsmnt_bot> !! here comes egobot !!
19:17:51 <bsmnt_bot> ais523: name our egobot
19:17:53 -!- lament has joined.
19:17:56 <lament> saluton
19:17:57 <AnMaster> a shell server should run *nix
19:18:00 <AnMaster> asiekierka, ^
19:18:00 <bsmnt_bot> Egorbot? :P
19:18:00 <asiekierka> oh, hi, egobot
19:18:03 <asiekierka> wait, you're not egobot
19:18:08 <asiekierka> you're lament
19:18:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: haha, nice sentence in your spec
19:18:12 <bsmntbombdood> give me a minute
19:18:12 <Deewiant> "The identifier is used in for when activating extensions to refer to these them."
19:18:16 <lament> asiekierka: a common mistake
19:18:17 <bsmnt_bot> yay
19:18:17 <ais523> tusho: GregorR didn't want people using the "Ego" prefix
19:18:19 <bsmnt_bot> bsmnt_bot will come too!
19:18:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, some typo
19:18:23 <bsmnt_bot> ais523: ah true
19:18:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what section?
19:18:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 4.2.3
19:18:31 <bsmnt_bot> ais523: ErgoBot?
19:18:32 -!- bsmnt_bot has changed nick to ErgoBot.
19:18:35 <ais523> ah, I like that
19:18:42 <ErgoBot> taken
19:18:42 <lament> fi, beautiful
19:18:52 <ais523> what, by you or by someone else?
19:18:53 -!- ErgoBot has changed nick to IdBot.
19:18:56 <IdBot> freud!
19:18:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I'm not sure what it meant
19:19:07 <asiekierka> !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@
19:19:14 <asiekierka> :(
19:19:17 <asiekierka> not yet?
19:19:17 <lament> :(
19:19:21 <IdBot> asiekierka: be patient
19:19:26 <asiekierka> Oh well, i'll run it on my mIRC
19:19:26 <asiekierka> as in
19:19:27 <AnMaster> "The identifier is used when activating extensions to refer to them."
19:19:27 <lament> !optbot
19:19:28 <optbot> lament: heh
19:19:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does that make sense?
19:19:37 <lament> !optbot
19:19:38 <optbot> lament: me having PSOX on highlight?
19:19:48 <lament> optbot: yes.
19:19:48 <optbot> lament: I guess it checks hardlinks
19:19:53 <asiekierka> i do /brainfuck (code) and what i /msg to the chan i said it in is the output
19:19:55 <lament> optbot: so you have PSOX hardlinked?
19:19:55 <optbot> lament: I resubmitted it
19:19:56 <asiekierka> for example, i'll /brainfuck ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@
19:19:58 <Deewiant> AnMaster: "The identifier is used to refer to extensions when activating them."?
19:19:59 <asiekierka> HelloWorld!
19:20:01 <asiekierka> Done
19:20:04 <IdBot> asiekierka shut up :P
19:20:07 <lament> optbot: ok, i'll check the mailbox
19:20:08 <optbot> lament: CPU lag/queue? you dont get your water till something else comes down the pipe...
19:20:09 <asiekierka> So tell me what code shall i run
19:20:24 <IdBot> hmm
19:20:24 <Deewiant> asiekierka: []
19:20:27 <IdBot> ais523: EgoBot isn't registered
19:20:27 <lament> optbot: i know, i thought that would be an issue, but it seems to work in practice
19:20:27 <optbot> lament: Lincoln's Gettysburg Address?
19:20:30 <IdBot> shall I just call it that?
19:20:33 <IdBot> as it is just egobot
19:20:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, probably
19:20:35 <IdBot> until gregorr is here
19:20:37 <lament> optbot: okay, now you're just talking nonsense
19:20:37 <optbot> lament: squyyyyyy
19:20:40 -!- IdBot has changed nick to EgoBot.
19:20:41 <EgoBot> hm
19:20:42 <EgoBot> it IS taken
19:20:46 <EgoBot> odd
19:20:48 -!- EgoBot has changed nick to IdBot.
19:20:52 <IdBot> egobot itself doesn't identify
19:20:57 <asiekierka> let's call him ehirdbot
19:20:57 <ais523> this is getting confusing
19:21:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: oh, and I think protocol negotiation needs a "DONE" msg or some such from interpreter, or empty CAP
19:21:12 <IdBot> ais523: ok, I'm setting up egobot
19:21:13 -!- IdBot has changed nick to tusho.
19:21:14 <ais523> oh, I /so/ want to implement CTCP SWAPNICK now...
19:21:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah hm...
19:21:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: er, from frontend
19:21:21 <tusho> ais523: as IdBot
19:21:26 <tusho> bsmntbombdood is apparently getting the bsmnt_bot source
19:21:29 <tusho> so that will be back too
19:21:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: because it now says "may activate extensions by sending CAP"
19:21:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh yes for no caps
19:21:50 <AnMaster> empty CAP I'd say
19:21:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but the state should change to pre-run, where CAP is invalid, after that
19:22:00 <Deewiant> yeah, that's what I'd do too
19:22:13 <bsmntbombdood> i haven't written code for like 6 months
19:22:18 <tusho> /usr/bin/ld: safe.o: relocation R_X86_64_32 against `a local symbol' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC
19:22:24 <tusho> i fucking hate ckpt
19:22:26 <bsmntbombdood> i probably won't even be able to get bsmnt_bot working again
19:22:35 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: i just need the source
19:22:37 <tusho> and the nick
19:22:40 <tusho> for it to return :P
19:22:41 <AnMaster> "If the front end doesn't want to activate any extensions, it should send an empty CAP."
19:22:42 <ais523> tusho: ckpt?
19:22:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ^
19:22:49 <tusho> ais523: linux process suspend library
19:22:51 <tusho> that egobot uses
19:22:53 <tusho> its so broken
19:22:55 <tusho> doesnt' compile on anything
19:23:06 <ais523> "process suspend library"?
19:23:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: s/front end/frontend/
19:23:15 <asiekierka> Also, tusho, could you please add a befunge interpreter?
19:23:15 <AnMaster> tusho, "suspend library"?
19:23:16 <bsmntbombdood> tusho ain't got teh skillz
19:23:20 <asiekierka> Oh wait, befunge is impossible
19:23:26 <asiekierka> Except if you do a shell script
19:23:31 <ais523> asiekierka: no it isn't, EgoBot implemented it
19:23:35 <asiekierka> Wha?
19:23:37 <asiekierka> In 2D?
19:23:40 <tusho> as a URI
19:23:41 <AnMaster> tusho, and yeah use -fpic when you compile libraries
19:23:43 <ais523> you pastebinned the Befunge and gave it a link to the pastebin
19:23:44 <AnMaster> tusho, really
19:23:47 <asiekierka> oh
19:23:54 <tusho> AnMaster: egobot's makefile doesn't
19:23:57 <tusho> I had to edit the makefile
19:24:00 <tusho> gcc -shared -fPIC -nostartfiles -Xlinker -Bsymbolic \
19:24:01 <tusho> -o librestart.so safe.o /usr/lib/libc.a
19:24:01 <tusho> gcc -shared -fPIC -nostartfiles -Xlinker -Bsymbolic \
19:24:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, right
19:24:05 <tusho> -o librestart.so safe.o /usr/lib/libc.a
19:24:12 <tusho> err
19:24:12 <AnMaster> tusho, well you'd need -fpic on x86_64
19:24:13 <tusho> gcc -shared -fPIC -nostartfiles -Xlinker -Bsymbolic \
19:24:13 <tusho> -o librestart.so safe.o /usr/lib/libc.a
19:24:18 <AnMaster> but not on x86
19:24:21 <asiekierka> Will there be a contest to hack on it
19:24:22 <AnMaster> tusho, and use lower case pic
19:24:23 <AnMaster> really
19:24:23 <asiekierka> xD
19:24:25 <tusho> sorry
19:24:25 <tusho> basically
19:24:26 <tusho> AnMaster: I did -fpic!!!!
19:24:27 <tusho> But it gives the same error.
19:24:35 <AnMaster> tusho, not -fPIC but -fpic yes
19:24:45 <tusho> AnMaster: SAME ERROR
19:24:50 <AnMaster> tusho, make clean in between?
19:25:03 <tusho> SAME ERROR
19:25:05 <tusho> :|
19:25:09 <tusho> because AnMaster
19:25:09 <asiekierka> Why does it use ckpt? For what?
19:25:11 <AnMaster> tusho, link to this source?
19:25:14 <tusho> AnMaster: it links /usr/lib/libc.a
19:25:14 <asiekierka> process suspend
19:25:20 <AnMaster> tusho, well fix that then
19:25:23 <tusho> AnMaster: I CAN'T
19:25:26 <tusho> THAT'S HOW CKPT WORKS
19:25:32 <AnMaster> tusho, err that makes no sense
19:25:38 <AnMaster> make ckpt a static library then
19:25:40 <AnMaster> that would work
19:25:42 <AnMaster> brb food
19:25:43 <tusho> AnMaster: i can't!
19:25:54 <tusho> i'm not some magical genie who can understand crazy code like ckpt as soon as I see it!
19:26:12 <asiekierka> Also, can you put up Frotz or something, for IF games
19:26:20 <asiekierka> So we can play interactive fiction
19:26:27 <asiekierka> Anyone will be able to issue commands
19:26:32 <tusho> no
19:26:42 <asiekierka> why :(
19:27:00 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:27:02 <asiekierka> why (._.( yhw
19:27:10 -!- Judofyr has joined.
19:28:09 <asiekierka> oh
19:28:10 <asiekierka> i see
19:28:15 <asiekierka> you want me to put up my own bot for that
19:28:24 <tusho> no
19:28:28 <tusho> this is not #if
19:28:36 <asiekierka> But it'll be there for fun
19:28:43 <tusho> not in here it won't be
19:28:44 <asiekierka> just like a channel about an old GCS
19:28:48 <asiekierka> has a werewolf engine
19:28:55 <tusho> hey lament
19:29:00 <tusho> do you want a spammy interactive fiction bot in here?
19:29:01 <tusho> hmm?
19:29:04 <asiekierka> Nope
19:29:10 <asiekierka> it'll only work when you enable it, tusho.
19:29:10 <tusho> I was asking lament asiekierka
19:29:13 <asiekierka> and by you i mean YOU.
19:29:23 <tusho> yes, I'd so love to have a command that spams up this channel on demant
19:29:24 <tusho> *demand
19:29:33 <asiekierka> You can put it to #irp
19:29:39 <tusho> no i couldn't
19:29:40 <tusho> I don't want one
19:29:42 <tusho> I wouldn't use one
19:29:46 <tusho> I have no incentive to write/download one
19:29:47 <tusho> end
19:30:03 <asiekierka> so what will it have except esolang support
19:30:08 <tusho> nothin
19:30:08 <tusho> g
19:30:20 <asiekierka> what esolangs will it support then
19:30:27 <tusho> what egobot supported
19:30:35 <asiekierka> what did he support
19:30:37 <tusho> ais523: any ideas about ckpt
19:30:41 <tusho> asiekierka: i don't know. lots
19:30:58 <ais523> tusho: no, I don't know what it is
19:31:08 <tusho> ais523: cd ~tusho/egobot*/ckpt
19:31:09 <ais523> asiekierka: quite a lot of popular ones
19:31:16 <ais523> tusho: I'm in the middle of two other things atm
19:31:21 <asiekierka> ais523: INTERCAL!?
19:31:25 <ais523> no
19:31:38 <ais523> figuring out why normish was blacklisted for spamming, and writing a technology report for Wikipedia
19:31:49 <asiekierka> what about brainfork
19:31:52 <asiekierka> or piet
19:32:08 <ais523> it did at least one image-based language I think, not sure if it did piet though
19:32:17 <asiekierka> it could do brainloller/braincopter
19:32:29 <asiekierka> since it'd be just running a brainloller/braincopter2bf and running !bf
19:32:56 <AnMaster> tusho, idea then
19:32:57 <AnMaster> -m32
19:33:05 <AnMaster> that ought to work if you have multilib
19:33:22 <AnMaster> also where is the source for that library
19:34:55 <tusho> AnMaster: what is the name for the libc.a for 32 bit?
19:34:58 <tusho> if I have multilib
19:35:12 <AnMaster> tusho, it would be in /usr/lib32 probably
19:35:35 <tusho> mem.c: In function 'call_with_new_stack':
19:35:36 <tusho> mem.c:291: error: 'JB_SP' undeclared (first use in this function)
19:35:37 <tusho> wtfoo :\
19:35:57 <AnMaster> tusho, well that is an error related to something not being declared
19:36:02 <AnMaster> you'd need to check the source
19:36:12 <tusho> AnMaster: I know C god damnit
19:36:21 <tusho> JB_SP is an internal elf/linux thing I believe
19:36:26 <AnMaster> oh my
19:36:31 <tusho> /* FIXME: Looks like there are about 16 bytes on the
19:36:31 <tusho> stack that will be unwound by the return and call
19:36:31 <tusho> to fn */
19:36:32 <tusho> jbuf[0].__jmpbuf[JB_SP] = stack_base;
19:36:35 <AnMaster> tusho, what does that ckpt thing do?
19:36:41 <tusho> AnMaster: suspends processes to disk
19:36:42 <tusho> I told you
19:36:54 <AnMaster> tusho, err, like core dumps that can be resumed?
19:36:59 <AnMaster> wtf
19:37:00 <tusho> pretty much
19:37:06 <ais523> AnMaster: well emacs does that
19:37:07 <AnMaster> tusho, that sounds like what emacs does
19:37:11 <tusho> AnMaster: egobot uses it for keeping state on all the esolang interps it uses
19:37:19 <AnMaster> ais523, as I said just half a second before (from my side)
19:37:26 <AnMaster> tusho, which is pretty wtf
19:37:39 <ais523> well I said it about half a second before at my end, so the messages must have crossed
19:37:49 <AnMaster> tusho, what I find most interesting is that it could probably be done pretty easily and cleanly in erlang
19:37:49 <AnMaster> ;P
19:38:00 <ais523> AnMaster: even more cleanly and easily in Smalltalk
19:38:06 <tusho> AnMaster: Could it survive a system crash?
19:38:07 <tusho> No.
19:38:10 <AnMaster> tusho, yes
19:38:12 <asiekierka> How's egobot coming?
19:38:13 <AnMaster> distributed
19:38:14 <ais523> or Underlambda for that matter because its continuations can be written out to disk
19:38:15 <AnMaster> tusho, :)
19:38:15 <ais523> and reloaded
19:38:21 <AnMaster> tusho, another node could
19:38:22 <tusho> AnMaster: Yes because I have 50 servers to run egobot on
19:38:27 <AnMaster> and then restart the first node
19:38:37 <AnMaster> tusho, or you could probably suspend a erlang process to disk
19:38:39 <AnMaster> also
19:38:48 <AnMaster> tusho, why the heck does it need to suspend state across a crash?
19:38:57 <tusho> AnMaster: I DON'T KNOW HOW EGOBOT WORKS
19:39:07 <ais523> AnMaster: imagine an esolang like Network Headache
19:39:08 <AnMaster> if it need permanent data, use a database
19:39:15 <AnMaster> ais523, what is that one?
19:39:15 <tusho> AnMaster: IT USES THIRD-PARTY INTERPS
19:39:17 <tusho> NOT ITS OWN
19:39:29 <ais523> AnMaster: all Network Headache programs everywhere share the same IP and variables
19:39:36 <AnMaster> ais523, it exists?
19:39:38 <ais523> and bits of code from all of them are run one after another
19:39:42 <ais523> AnMaster: I think so, there's an interp somewhere
19:39:55 <ais523> ofc the nature of the language is that there can only ever possibly be one interp for it
19:39:58 <asiekierka> I must add one command to Befunge
19:40:04 <asiekierka> Befunge-64 of course
19:40:12 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Network_Headache
19:40:14 <AnMaster> oh my
19:40:19 <asiekierka> you know, befunge-93 with the command s that takes the top of the stack to the bottom
19:40:31 <asiekierka> or not
19:40:35 <AnMaster> hm
19:40:37 <tusho> asiekierka: you don't need it
19:40:39 <tusho> befunge-93 is almost TC
19:40:40 <asiekierka> I just wanted to make a Robot Finds Kitten game for befunge
19:40:41 <AnMaster> you mentioned s before
19:40:43 <tusho> you can implement tc
19:40:46 <tusho> tusho@rutian:~/egobot-0.12/ckpt$ find /usr/include -exec grep JB_SP {} \;
19:40:47 <tusho> tusho@rutian:~/egobot-0.12/ckpt$
19:40:47 <tusho> :|
19:41:00 <asiekierka> yes, robotfindskittenfunge
19:41:07 <asiekierka> Or even invent a fungeoid
19:41:10 <asiekierka> a RobotFindsKittenfunge
19:41:20 -!- Judofyr_ has joined.
19:41:24 <AnMaster> tusho, is it elf related you said?
19:41:28 <tusho> AnMaster: setjmp related
19:41:33 <tusho> some internal thing
19:41:54 <AnMaster> tusho, it shouldn't mess in internal stuff
19:41:57 <ais523> the initials JB did remind me of setjmp
19:41:59 <AnMaster> probably broke it
19:42:09 <AnMaster> $ grep -R JB_SP /usr/lib/binutils/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/2.18/include/
19:42:16 <AnMaster> $ grep -R JB_SP /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/include/
19:42:17 <AnMaster> nothing
19:42:29 * AnMaster checks 3.x too
19:42:31 <ais523> tusho: it is, just use Underlambda
19:42:45 <ais523> it's specified in the Underlambda specs that you can write functions out to disk and reload them from disk
19:42:49 <ais523> and a continuation is a type of function
19:42:51 <ais523> so it's easy
19:42:58 -!- tusho has changed nick to IdBot.
19:43:03 -!- IdBot has changed nick to tusho.
19:43:20 <AnMaster> hm
19:43:26 <AnMaster> ais523, what about haskell then?
19:43:38 <ais523> I don't think you can do that i nHaskell
19:43:47 <ais523> or indeed in most langs
19:43:58 <ais523> most langs don't have an output-a-function command
19:44:02 <AnMaster> ais523, I think you may be able to seralize a erlang process, but not sure
19:44:02 <ais523> nor an input-a-function
19:44:36 <AnMaster> ais523, erlang certainly got "(un)seralize a term"
19:44:47 <ais523> AnMaster: and terms can be functions?
19:44:54 <ais523> does it have continuations?
19:44:55 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't *think* so
19:44:57 <AnMaster> but not sure
19:45:02 <AnMaster> ais523, continuations hm
19:45:06 <ais523> if you can serialise a continuation you can freeze the program
19:45:15 <AnMaster> what one is that now again
19:45:24 <AnMaster> closures and continuations
19:45:26 <AnMaster> always mix them up
19:45:28 <AnMaster> :/
19:45:29 <ais523> continuations are like TRDS only saner
19:45:42 <AnMaster> ais523, ah no idea then
19:46:03 <AnMaster> erlang got closures I think, but continuations... no idea
19:46:34 <AnMaster> tusho, I guess JB_SP is some deprecated thing then
19:46:53 <AnMaster> tusho, I found it...
19:46:55 <AnMaster> /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-i386/archsetjmp.h:#define JB_SP __esp
19:46:55 <AnMaster> /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-x86_64/archsetjmp.h:#define JB_SP __rsp
19:47:10 <AnMaster> which is very wtf
19:47:11 <AnMaster> :P
19:47:33 <AnMaster> nothing in non-um arch either it seems
19:47:47 * AnMaster waits for grep to finish
19:48:03 <AnMaster> nop
19:48:17 <AnMaster> and um = user mode linux
19:48:52 <AnMaster> tusho, doesn't really help at all
19:49:09 <ais523> what does __esp do?
19:49:26 <ais523> wait... is it actually manipulating the individual registers on the processor?
19:49:48 <AnMaster> esp is a register yes
19:49:48 <ais523> those defines are named after the stack pointer for x86 and x86_64
19:49:59 <AnMaster> /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-i386/archsetjmp.h-#define JB_IP __eip
19:49:59 <AnMaster> /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-i386/archsetjmp.h:#define JB_SP __esp
19:50:04 <AnMaster> /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-x86_64/archsetjmp.h-#define JB_IP __rip
19:50:05 <AnMaster> /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-x86_64/archsetjmp.h:#define JB_SP __rsp
19:50:11 <AnMaster> from context grep
19:50:12 <AnMaster> and
19:50:19 <AnMaster> it doesn't occur outside user mode linux
19:50:33 <asiekierka> how's egobot coming?
19:50:42 <AnMaster> asiekierka, most likely "not at all"
19:51:07 <AnMaster> thanks to broken lib
19:51:14 <AnMaster> btw who owns the esolangs.org server?
19:51:20 <ais523> AnMaster: graue
19:51:38 <AnMaster> ais523, never seen that nick here
19:52:11 <ais523> AnMaster: he doesn't come here often, although he tends to respond quickly to email when I email him about a server problem
19:52:17 <AnMaster> ah
19:52:31 <AnMaster> ais523, so who can put stuff up on the file archive and such on the server?
19:52:34 <AnMaster> only him?
19:52:40 <ais523> there were a few others, I think
19:52:52 <AnMaster> no longer?
19:52:53 <ais523> IIRC Keymaker had write access
19:53:01 <AnMaster> again someone I never heard of
19:53:03 <ais523> AnMaster: no idea, presumably they still have access
19:53:07 <asiekierka> is there any link to a ckpt website in source code
19:53:09 <ais523> AnMaster: you should have heard of Keymaker
19:53:13 <AnMaster> ais523, nop
19:53:14 <asiekierka> a website about ckpt
19:53:17 <asiekierka> even a dead link
19:53:19 <ais523> quite the prolific esolangers
19:53:24 <ais523> s/s$//
19:53:33 <AnMaster> asiekierka, tried google?
19:53:37 <ais523> he wrote an Underload intepreter, and lots of other things, in Brainfuck
19:53:37 <AnMaster> first hit it seems
19:53:50 <AnMaster> tusho, maybe there is a newer version of the library?
19:54:09 <AnMaster> "This software is no longer being maintained."
19:54:11 <AnMaster> oh well
19:54:13 <AnMaster> probably not
19:54:22 <asiekierka> It was last updated april 13 2005
19:54:22 <asiekierka> and is no longer maintained
19:54:22 <asiekierka> ckpt runs on Linux 2.4 and 2.6 with (or without) the NPTL thread system (but it does not checkpoint programs that use threads).
19:54:27 <asiekierka> there are notes for users of Debian woody and related version
19:54:35 <asiekierka> and users of systems with exec-shield such as Fedora Core 2
19:54:52 <asiekierka> ckpt currently does not work out of the box on systems that
19:54:52 <asiekierka> have exec-shield installed.
19:54:55 <ais523> Debian /woody/?
19:54:58 <ais523> that was years ago...
19:54:59 <asiekierka> # echo 0 > /proc/sys/kernel/exec-shield-randomize
19:55:01 <AnMaster> ais523, yes...
19:55:05 <asiekierka> that was the exec-shield workaround
19:55:11 <AnMaster> so was fedora core 2
19:55:20 <asiekierka> as root, you execute that
19:55:23 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you know we can read too
19:55:25 <AnMaster> ....
19:55:33 <asiekierka> i just felt like it
19:55:44 <AnMaster> stop the pointless spam
19:55:59 <asiekierka> okay
19:57:52 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:58:37 <AnMaster> tusho, I don't think you will have much luck with ego bot
19:58:52 <tusho> why not AnMaster
19:58:56 <tusho> I just need to find out what to define JB_SP to
19:59:08 <AnMaster> tusho, see what I pasted above then
19:59:21 <AnMaster> on 32-bit probably the rsp register
19:59:21 <tusho> that's for user mode linux
19:59:25 <AnMaster> tusho, true....
19:59:51 <asiekierka> ....but....
20:00:47 -!- comex has joined.
20:02:08 <LinuS> hello
20:02:14 <AnMaster> hi
20:02:30 <LinuS> how is you work going?
20:02:30 <asiekierka> hi
20:02:39 <LinuS> i'm not translating my language description into english
20:02:44 <LinuS> then i'll let you see
20:03:22 <ais523> LinuS: ?
20:03:34 <LinuS> ais523: i've developed an esoteric language
20:03:45 <LinuS> but description is in italian at the moment :)
20:03:49 <ais523> ah
20:03:59 <ais523> well if you link it I'll see how well babelfish does on it
20:04:31 <LinuS> one moment
20:04:38 <LinuS> i'm glad you're interested :)
20:04:47 <tusho> ais523: it executes via irc servers
20:04:51 <tusho> it uses ban flags as variables
20:05:03 <ais523> tusho: what, IRP?
20:05:07 <LinuS> nay
20:05:08 <LinuS> mine
20:05:15 <LinuS> http://rafb.net/p/rgoM3S98.html
20:05:15 <ais523> arguably it uses people's mental state as variables
20:05:58 -!- Hiato has joined.
20:06:43 <LinuS> the points of the language are not storing variables in his own memory but only use IRC resources and all the commands should be valid for the IRC protocol (a client sending them to a server)
20:07:03 <ais523> looks interesting, it translated pretty well
20:07:08 <LinuS> that is, when the program is run the interpreter will "do" them into the selected irc server aswell
20:09:33 <psygnisfive> aww tusho
20:09:39 <psygnisfive> ofcourse i like it when you're talking
20:09:41 <psygnisfive> ::pet::
20:09:49 <psygnisfive> i just prefer it when your mouth is doing other things
20:09:57 <tusho> oh shut up psygnisfive
20:10:15 <psygnisfive> OH THE IRONY
20:13:21 <AnMaster> hahaha
20:13:40 <dogface_> Here's an esoteric programming language: all statements are things such as "5. Statement 3 takes precedence over statement 8.", and the result of the program is a description of what takes precedence over what.
20:13:55 <tusho> dogface_: get rid of my normish account, please
20:14:15 <AnMaster> LinuS, it wouldn't be TC
20:14:23 <AnMaster> as number of bans are limited on all ircds
20:14:47 <psygnisfive> dogface: i dont think that could computer anything
20:15:51 <LinuS> AnMaster oh i see
20:16:09 <AnMaster> LinuS, unless you have some other form of *infinite* storage
20:16:12 <dogface_> tusho: did you somehow get one?
20:16:19 <LinuS> but isn't memory limited anyway on a pc?
20:16:21 <tusho> dogface_: I was the second user...
20:16:33 <dogface_> As far as I can tell, you don't have a user on Normish.
20:16:35 <AnMaster> LinuS, sure it is, but no implementation is TC
20:16:44 <AnMaster> but you would limit yourself more than that
20:16:51 <LinuS> oh i see
20:16:56 <dogface_> Oh, a proposal to remove you more is in the works.
20:17:07 <AnMaster> unless you make a special ircd with unlimited bans of course
20:17:28 <LinuS> that's not what i want to do, it'll work on every RFC-compliant ircds
20:17:40 <AnMaster> LinuS, anyway it wouldn't be TC even in theory I think
20:17:55 <AnMaster> well no luck then
20:18:00 <ais523> LinuS: how do you do loops?
20:18:01 <AnMaster> you need some other form of storage as well
20:18:10 <LinuS> ais523 the WHILE block
20:18:16 <LinuS> uses topic as condition
20:18:18 <asiekierka> How's egobot
20:18:35 <LinuS> While block: TOPIC (condition) { } (there is no IF block because you can use the While one)
20:18:39 <AnMaster> tusho, how is egobot coming along?
20:18:49 <LinuS> like in the power example
20:18:52 <tusho> AnMaster: Not until I find out what to define JB_SP to.
20:19:10 <AnMaster> tusho, try the same as for um, it may work
20:19:25 <ais523> tusho: I suggest whatever the stack pointer is called in the compiler you're using
20:19:26 <AnMaster> tusho, if it doesn't *shrug*
20:19:36 <ais523> so __esp on 32-bit
20:19:38 <tusho> ais523: k
20:19:50 <LinuS> have you got any suggestions, clues?
20:19:55 <tusho> mem.c:294: error: '__esp' undeclared (first use in this function)
20:20:01 <AnMaster> um
20:20:15 <AnMaster> that seems strange
20:20:16 <AnMaster> oh well
20:20:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: two things, firstly what do you see as the difference between events and breakpoints, secondly I think there should be events "standard/file IO happened"
20:20:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, good point about the second
20:20:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and events doesn't stop interpreter do they?
20:21:04 <AnMaster> while a break point does break
20:21:05 <psygnisfive> lmfao
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20:21:10 <psygnisfive> theres an article in usatoday
20:21:12 <AnMaster> an even just reports
20:21:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: the second isn't that important for the standard since you can just trace ,.&~ but for fingerprints it matters
20:21:15 <psygnisfive> about how kids today are getting high
20:21:17 <psygnisfive> and addicted
20:21:22 <psygnisfive> using DIGITAL DRUGS
20:21:24 <psygnisfive> like binaural music
20:21:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah
20:21:32 <psygnisfive> ZOMG THE BINAURALS
20:21:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: okay, so how do you break on an event
20:21:51 <ais523> register int __esp asm("esp");
20:21:54 <ais523> you need to declare it first
20:22:02 <ais523> that's gcc-specific syntax for that, it seems
20:22:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, good pont
20:22:08 <AnMaster> point*
20:22:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: BRK in 5.7.2 (btw typo, says BRKGEN at one point) has type 5: "break from change notification"
20:22:24 <tusho> ais523: I could do register int JB_SP asm("esp")
20:22:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: which refers to an event
20:22:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah yes that is it
20:22:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, renamed thing
20:22:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I think it should say "break from event"
20:22:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: (since not all events are necessarily change notifications)
20:22:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I renamed it before
20:22:58 <AnMaster> that is the issue
20:23:04 <AnMaster> events got expanded
20:23:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and anyway, how does one request to stop at event FOO for instance
20:23:30 <AnMaster> indeed it needs to be expanded, as there was only one event before
20:23:34 <tusho> AnMaster: it needs libdl
20:23:38 <dogface_> tusho: can you log out so we can delete you?
20:23:38 <tusho> how can I get a 32-bit libdl?
20:23:44 <tusho> dogface_: I am not logged in.
20:23:45 <AnMaster> tusho, should be one in /lib32
20:23:51 <dogface_> tusho: don't log in again, then.
20:23:52 <ais523> tusho: yes you are, w proves it
20:24:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm looking now
20:24:41 <tusho> now it wants libgcc
20:24:42 <tusho> :|
20:24:45 <AnMaster> 00.00.0000 action An integer describing what should happen on the change being triggered:
20:24:46 <AnMaster> • 0 indicates a change notification.
20:24:46 <AnMaster> • 1 indicates a breakpoint.
20:24:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there seem to be that
20:24:53 <AnMaster> and such
20:24:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: where's that
20:24:59 <tusho> how can I get a 32-bit libgcc
20:25:01 <AnMaster> 2.8.3
20:25:04 <AnMaster> err
20:25:06 <AnMaster> 5.8.3
20:25:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ^
20:25:14 <tusho> hmm
20:25:18 <tusho> I have libgcc_s.so.1
20:25:30 <asiekierka> so how's egobot now
20:25:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, every such type got a break point action it seems
20:25:44 <tusho> asiekierka: shush
20:25:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: hmm, okay
20:26:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: maybe it should be a boolean and not integer, true if should break false if not (still 1 and 0 as now)
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20:26:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and maybe the CHG* should all start with EV as well as the others
20:27:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes it already does?
20:27:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: only the title
20:27:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oops
20:27:35 <AnMaster> typo then
20:27:45 <AnMaster> fixed locally
20:27:59 <LinuS> i've translated the language description in english, if someone's interested
20:28:06 <asiekierka> i am!
20:28:08 <AnMaster> LinuS, sure
20:28:21 <AnMaster> tusho, libgcc should be in /lib32 too
20:28:32 <tusho> libgcc_s.so.1 is AnMaster
20:28:36 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway gcc normally links it automatically
20:28:55 <LinuS> http://rafb.net/p/7hgQVs52.html
20:28:57 <tusho> it just says skipping incompatible /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.2.3/libgcc.a when searching for -lgcc twice
20:28:59 <tusho> then gives up
20:29:05 <tusho> for
20:29:06 <AnMaster> /usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/32/libgcc.a
20:29:07 <tusho> gcc -Xlinker --script=restart.script -o restart restart.o mem.o util.o uri.o remote.o sockaddr.o wrapsafe.o elfrestart.o -ldl -L/usr/lib32
20:29:09 <AnMaster> /usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/libgcc.a
20:29:14 <AnMaster> I got those here
20:29:24 <AnMaster> tusho, I guess something like that?
20:29:30 <AnMaster> the 32 one probably
20:29:34 <AnMaster> tusho, tried locate first?
20:29:36 <tusho> i do not have a 32 bit libgcc.a AnMaster!!!
20:29:39 <AnMaster> it helped me find it
20:29:46 <AnMaster> tusho, I do in said location
20:29:50 <AnMaster> /usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/32/libgcc.a
20:29:50 <tusho> and I do not
20:29:58 <AnMaster> tusho, it may be somewhere else on your system
20:30:01 <AnMaster> because you must have it
20:30:10 <AnMaster> it may be in a totally different place
20:30:11 <tusho> ah tehre it is
20:30:21 <AnMaster> /usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/4.3.1/libgcc.a
20:30:26 <AnMaster> on my 32-bit arch
20:30:33 <tusho> gcc -Xlinker --script=restart.script -o restart restart.o mem.o util.o uri.o remote.o sockaddr.o wrapsafe.o elfrestart.o -ldl -L/usr/lib32 -L/usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.2.3/32/lib
20:30:34 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:30:34 <tusho> still fails
20:30:39 <AnMaster> tusho, see!
20:30:47 <AnMaster> it was just a case of changing compiler version
20:31:19 <AnMaster> tusho, you are missing a -m32
20:31:21 <AnMaster> on that line
20:31:23 <LinuS> let me also know if you notice some bad english
20:31:24 <AnMaster> not very odd then
20:31:26 <LinuS> ^^
20:31:42 <AnMaster> tusho, you need -m32 for *all* calls to gcc
20:31:45 <tusho> yes yes
20:32:05 * AnMaster reads LinuS paste
20:32:32 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
20:32:42 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:32:51 <AnMaster> *Quits returning the 1 value (ok) to the system
20:32:52 <AnMaster> QUIT 1
20:32:53 <AnMaster> err
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20:33:01 <AnMaster> that doesn't match *nix
20:33:20 <LinuS> i believe this one will unmatch more
20:33:20 <LinuS> QUIT "Now this is a nice language!"
20:33:22 <AnMaster> LinuS, on Linux and also all other systems except VMS that I know about 0 is normal exit and 1 is bad
20:33:30 <LinuS> oh, indeed
20:33:33 <AnMaster> if you mean exit code of program
20:33:41 <LinuS> yes, i forgot them
20:33:42 <Deewiant> oh, VMS has it flipped?
20:33:49 <AnMaster> LinuS, I think VMS however uses 1 for OK and 0 for bad
20:33:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think so
20:33:55 <AnMaster> at least I read that I think
20:34:02 <AnMaster> may have been some other platform
20:34:04 <LinuS> i wanted to write 0, it was a "typo"
20:34:12 <LinuS> what about returning a string to the system?
20:34:15 <LinuS> can i do it?
20:34:26 <AnMaster> LinuS, well depends on what you want
20:34:29 <AnMaster> not as a exit code
20:34:39 <AnMaster> you could print it out at the end I guess
20:34:45 <AnMaster> in the interpreter
20:34:53 <AnMaster> or you could send a quit message on irc
20:35:22 <LinuS> yeah i'll threat the quit message as a comment, but i'll still send it to IRC
20:35:23 <AnMaster> $ true; echo $?; false; echo $?
20:35:23 <AnMaster> 0
20:35:23 <AnMaster> 1
20:35:38 <ais523> AnMaster: was that on VMS?
20:35:44 <AnMaster> ais523, nop
20:35:46 <AnMaster> it was on linux
20:35:49 <ais523> and actually VMS uses odd for success, even for failed
20:35:49 <AnMaster> I don't have any vms
20:35:50 <AnMaster> ...
20:36:00 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah I said it was reversed
20:36:14 <ais523> AnMaster: well it has more than one success code
20:36:18 <AnMaster> ok
20:36:28 <ais523> and the C stdlib does weird stuff to translate exit codes
20:36:48 <AnMaster> ais523, there is some #defines for "bad" and "good" exits iirc
20:36:57 <ais523> EXIT_SUCCESS and EXIT_FAILURE
20:37:00 <ais523> EXIT_SUCCESS is always 0
20:37:05 <ais523> EXIT_FAILURE can vary though
20:37:08 <AnMaster> (oh btw, I should have known you knew about weird systems!)
20:37:16 <AnMaster> ais523, aren't they flipped on VMS then?
20:37:16 <ais523> on VMS EXIT_SUCCESS is 0 and EXIT_FAILURE is some random large even number, I think
20:37:29 <ais523> and exit() and return from main swap 0 and some random large odd number
20:37:34 -!- dogface has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:37:38 <AnMaster> ok weird
20:37:39 <ais523> and all other numbers are preserved unchanged
20:37:44 <ais523> the C standard allows that behaviour
20:38:04 <ais523> and that's why you can use 0 for successful exit but on non-posix should use EXIT_FAILURE for failed exit
20:38:12 <ais523> (on posix you can use any non-zero for failed)
20:38:28 <AnMaster> ais523, well... why is there EXIT_SUCCESS at all then?
20:38:33 <ais523> symmetry I think
20:38:36 <LinuS> err
20:38:38 <AnMaster> I see
20:38:40 <LinuS> now that i'm thinking
20:38:50 <LinuS> my language is interpreted
20:38:57 <AnMaster> LinuS, yes of course
20:39:00 <LinuS> so well, i can't actually return anything to the system
20:39:03 <LinuS> just to the interpreter
20:39:17 <AnMaster> LinuS, which can then return it to the system if it wants
20:39:26 <AnMaster> q in befunge work like that
20:39:49 <LinuS> oh well, i'll think i'll just display the quit messagges on the interpreter console
20:39:52 <LinuS> :)
20:39:56 <fizzie> Actually EXIT_SUCCESS need not be 0; the standard says that you can signal a successful termination using either zero or EXIT_SUCCESS; so 0 always works, but EXIT_SUCCESS might be something else.
20:40:02 <LinuS> messages*
20:40:26 <ais523> fizzie: ah yes, that's it, I don't think there were any implementations that had it non-zero though
20:40:28 <AnMaster> ah well our other standard expert (fizzie)
20:41:07 <fizzie> I can't really think of any very sensible reasons to #define it non-zero, since they must anyway handle the 0 case.
20:41:15 <AnMaster> anyway if someone ever need to ask about a weird system, just ask ais523, if it was made after 72, there is a good chance he know about it
20:41:16 <ais523> yes
20:41:17 <AnMaster> ;P
20:41:27 <ais523> even before, on occasion
20:41:37 <ais523> after all Baudot was invented in the 1800s
20:41:38 <AnMaster> really?
20:41:42 <AnMaster> ah true
20:41:47 <AnMaster> ais523, and roman numerals!
20:41:55 <ais523> I only know Baudot from INTERCAL, though
20:42:15 <ais523> unlike most langs which are being updated to progressively newer technologies, INTERCAL is updated to progressively older technologies
20:42:27 <AnMaster> hahah
20:42:40 <LinuS> well, have you got other clues or suggestions?
20:43:11 <LinuS> seems like this is the only place in which i can talk about this, other people tend not to understand me or tells me to stop wasting my time :p
20:43:23 <dogface_> Does INTERCAL have any instructions for operating a Babbage analytical engine?
20:43:34 <AnMaster> LinuS, not really my type of language
20:43:57 <LinuS> why? is it too "simple"?
20:44:16 <ais523> dogface_: not yet, but patches are welcome
20:48:16 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, nah
20:48:17 <AnMaster> err
20:48:19 <AnMaster> LinuS, ^
20:48:22 <AnMaster> mistab
20:48:23 <AnMaster> sorry
20:48:33 <LinuS> gh
20:48:41 <AnMaster> LinuS, I'm more into languages like befunge and such
20:49:05 <LinuS> i see :)
20:49:30 <tusho> egobot's compilin'
20:49:32 <tusho> LinuS: I like it
20:49:33 <tusho> it's creative
20:49:35 <tusho> your first?
20:49:35 <ais523> tusho: wow
20:49:43 <LinuS> yes tusho
20:49:46 <tusho> ais523: i had to fuck about with ckpt's makefile a lot
20:49:49 <tusho> hopefully it works
20:49:59 <ais523> LinuS: it reminds me of my study into incidental programmability
20:50:00 <tusho> guh
20:50:03 <tusho> I installed jikes-classpath
20:50:08 <tusho> but it still can't do it
20:50:09 <ais523> like when I wrote noughts-and-crosses in Paint
20:50:11 <tusho> *** Semantic Error: You need to modify your classpath, sourcepath, bootclasspath, and/or extdirs setup. Jikes could not find package "java.lang" in:
20:50:11 <tusho> .
20:50:20 <tusho> aha
20:50:21 <ais523> Java now?
20:50:26 <ais523> I thought it was written in C
20:50:30 <tusho> ais523: remember, egobot uses third-party interps
20:50:34 <tusho> so it compiles them all
20:50:35 <ais523> ah yes
20:50:37 <tusho> and it's C++
20:50:38 <LinuS> uhm ais523, you mean using piet?
20:50:43 <tusho> C with Classes, in this case
20:50:46 <ais523> LinuS: no
20:50:46 <tusho> C with Classes badly, really
20:50:49 <ais523> using the floodfill tool
20:50:49 <LinuS> or how did you write that on paint?
20:51:06 <tusho> cd lazyk ; g++ -O2 -g lazy.cpp -o lazyk
20:51:06 <tusho> lazy.cpp:66: error: 'operator new' takes type 'size_t' ('long unsigned int') as first parameter
20:51:08 <tusho> lol wut
20:51:12 <ais523> I rigged it up so that you could click with floodfill on various places
20:51:15 <tusho> static void* operator new(unsigned) {
20:51:18 <tusho> ah I see
20:51:20 * tusho changes
20:51:21 <LinuS> ooh i see :)
20:51:23 <LinuS> got it now
20:51:26 <ais523> and it would mark your and its rules onto the board
20:51:31 <ais523> s/rules/moves/
20:51:33 <ais523> it never lost either
20:51:37 <ais523> but it always went first
20:51:38 <tusho> ais523: i want that
20:51:42 <tusho> ghc -O --make Main -o rhotor-hi
20:51:42 <tusho> ./build.sh: 4: ghc: not found
20:51:46 <tusho> egobot depends on ghc ahahahaha
20:51:48 <ais523> tusho: I've sent it to you before
20:51:53 <LinuS> lol that's really kewl
20:52:09 <ais523> I also did noughts-and-crosses in the Windows 3.1 help system
20:52:15 <ais523> by using lots and lots of hyperlinks
20:52:21 <ais523> and automatically generating all the possible grids
20:52:34 <LinuS> i don't know it, is it different from html pages?
20:52:36 <ais523> winhelp was great, it had variables and everything
20:52:42 <ais523> and it was a bit different
20:52:46 <tusho> oh jesus christ
20:52:50 <tusho> GreaseMonkey has made a third account
20:53:06 <ais523> it took Word documents as input
20:53:08 <tusho> can't he remember a goddamn password
20:53:13 <ais523> and you specified commands using foornotes
20:53:18 <tusho> however [[If you find some archaic license on any of these languages, disregard it. I don't care what you do with it anymore. I'd like to see it simply used as it should be. I am cleaning up all the licence crap now. --Ben Russell 05:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC) ]]
20:53:18 <ais523> it was quite esoteric, really
20:53:22 <tusho> so no more "Oerjan fucked with it" I guess
20:53:43 <ais523> it's the only programming lang I've ever come across which used a rich-text source
20:54:03 <ais523> section breaks to separate pages, and footnotes for things like onload scripts
20:54:09 <ais523> you did links using underlines and hidden text
20:54:12 <tusho> !!! EGOBOT JUST COMPILED !!!
20:54:14 <tusho> wholly shit
20:55:05 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:55:38 <tusho> hmm
20:55:39 -!- MikeRiley has quit ("Leaving").
20:55:43 <tusho> now to figure out the arcane netcat construction it uses
20:56:09 <ais523> netcat? What lang is EgoBot written in anyway (the core, not the third-party interps)?
20:56:36 -!- IdBot has joined.
20:56:36 <dogface_> A C-oid, isn't it?
20:56:39 <tusho> hi IdBot
20:56:39 <dogface_> !help
20:56:40 <tusho> !help
20:56:43 <tusho> mmf
20:57:05 -!- IdBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:57:27 -!- IdBot has joined.
20:57:29 <tusho> !help
20:57:33 <tusho> :|
20:57:36 <LinuS> lol
20:57:39 <tusho> !bf +.
20:57:42 <ais523> tusho: is the command prefix ! by default?
20:57:42 <dogface_> !bf8 +[+.]
20:57:42 <tusho> !say hi
20:57:47 <tusho> ais523: it isn't configurable
20:57:48 <tusho> so yes :P
20:57:53 -!- IdBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:58:00 <LinuS> what should the bot do?
20:58:02 <dogface_> How did you get it to be IdBot?
20:58:02 <ais523> at least it's joining
20:58:06 <ais523> LinuS: interpret esolangs
20:58:10 <tusho> :tusho!n=ehird@ PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help
20:58:12 <ais523> EgoBot used to be a major feature of this channel
20:58:13 <tusho> it's alive, then
20:58:26 <ais523> I remember when I got 3 of the bots here to form an infinite loop
20:58:28 <LinuS> interpret esolangs? how many? :O
20:58:30 <ais523> of sending commands to each other
20:58:33 <dogface_> Twentyabouts.
20:58:33 <ais523> LinuS: 20 or so
20:58:33 <tusho> LinuS: like 20
20:58:37 <tusho> hahahaha
20:58:37 * dogface_ wins
20:58:44 <tusho> no
20:58:44 <tusho> I did
20:58:45 <tusho> :P
20:58:47 <LinuS> oh my god, wonderful
20:58:48 <ais523> dogface_: I won at my end
20:58:50 <LinuS> :P
20:58:55 <dogface_> ais523 beat tusho.
20:58:55 <tusho> ais523 beat dogface_ though
20:58:56 * LinuS 's autojoining the channel
20:58:58 <ais523> we'll just have to check the logs, I suppose
20:59:06 <ais523> at least both of you think I beat the other
20:59:15 <ais523> dogface_ beat tusho over here
20:59:19 <dogface_> Yay. :-P
20:59:43 <tusho> Ah.
20:59:45 <tusho> EgoBot segfaults.
20:59:46 <oklopol> abotu 20
20:59:48 <oklopol> *about
20:59:50 <tusho> I bet it's that pesky ckpt, ais523
20:59:59 <dogface_> oklopol: fourth place isn't bad.
21:00:05 <ais523> oklopol: heh
21:00:11 <tusho> ah of course
21:00:14 <ais523> optbot: meet IdBot
21:00:15 <optbot> ais523: tusho, there are 12-year-olds in here.
21:00:15 <tusho> I need to compile them all as 32 bit don't I
21:00:21 <ais523> optbot: stop that!
21:00:21 <optbot> ais523: It's BIZARRO ESOTERIC
21:00:26 <tusho> since ckpt is
21:00:27 <tusho> :\
21:00:35 <oklopol> tusho: please comment on my joke so i can repeat it!
21:00:40 <tusho> oklopol: no, I'm busy
21:00:42 <ais523> * kicks optbot (trolling)
21:00:42 <optbot> ais523: Is this transferrable? If I get aard to worship me, will your aard worships be transferred to me too?
21:00:55 <tusho> wow
21:00:58 <tusho> ais523: that's from 2002
21:01:00 <tusho> i remember
21:01:03 <tusho> reading fizzie's logs
21:01:11 <ais523> what were they talking about in 2002?
21:01:13 <ais523> apart from that?
21:01:14 <tusho> aard of course refers to H. Founder and FALSE creator
21:01:16 <tusho> Aardappel
21:01:21 <tusho> ais523: how much the channel was dead.
21:01:28 <ais523> well it isn't dead nowadays
21:01:32 <tusho> ais523: and Life In Genearl
21:01:34 <ais523> it's been going strong for several years now
21:01:35 <tusho> so no, not just esolangs
21:01:37 <tusho> *General
21:01:37 <dogface_> Does "H." mean he's a player of Agora?
21:01:42 <tusho> dogface_: No, it means he's Honorable.
21:03:07 <dogface_> Okay, what would the little tune in this comic sound like: http://www.theclassm.com/d/19990826.html
21:04:30 <oklopol> Didn't Load
21:04:53 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:08:03 <tusho> Great.
21:08:06 <tusho> Egobot is segfaulting.
21:08:09 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: ping
21:08:19 <ais523> tusho: as it probably would be if you were messing around with the stack, like it sounds like it does
21:08:27 <tusho> ais523: I got rid of ckpt,.
21:10:44 <bsmntbombdood> wut
21:12:03 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: want bsmnt_bot.
21:12:05 <tusho> egobot is teh fux
21:16:27 <dogface_> Hmm.
21:18:17 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: plzz0r
21:18:18 <tusho> :P
21:20:15 <dogface_> bsmnt_bot-like thing is coming.
21:21:07 <tusho> dogface_: What?
21:21:10 <tusho> I asked for bsmnt_bot.
21:21:12 <tusho> From bsmntbombdood.
21:21:19 * dogface_ relearns regexes
21:21:33 <tusho> dogface_: bsmnt_bot executed arbitary python and that's how we added esolangs.
21:21:36 <tusho> Are you going to go and sandbox it?
21:21:45 <tusho> Have fun with that. I think asking bsmntbombdood for it will be quicker.
21:21:47 <tusho> He replied earlier.
21:21:59 <ais523> tusho: e chrooted it, I think
21:22:32 <tusho> ais523: Yes. ihope seems to be reimplementing bsmnt_bot on the spot.
21:22:42 <tusho> Either I'll have it from bsmntbombdood way before he's done,
21:22:52 <tusho> or it'll be incredibly insecure and I can wipe ihope's system with one line on IRC,
21:22:56 <tusho> or it won't be extensible
21:22:57 <dogface_> The latter.
21:23:06 <dogface_> And the lattest.
21:23:08 <tusho> (and thus the list of esolangs will be restricted)
21:23:17 <tusho> (whereas it was one of the best things about bsmnt_bot)
21:23:18 <ais523> dogface_: seriously, don't put something there that allows your computer to be wiped with one line of IRC
21:23:21 <tusho> dogface_: Then it's not "bsmnt_bot".
21:23:23 <ais523> or someone here will probably do it
21:23:23 <dogface_> I won't.
21:23:24 <tusho> It's "a random IRC bot".
21:23:26 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:23:30 <dogface_> Well, it will be extensible, I guess.
21:23:38 <tusho> dogface_: With Python code to add a handler?
21:23:41 <tusho> Hope you secure that well.
21:23:50 <ais523> what would be amusing would be if you hacked into tusho's computer and got it to run there, then tusho wiped eir own computer with one line of IRC
21:23:55 <dogface_> :-)
21:23:57 <ais523> but I doubt that will ahppen
21:24:04 -!- Judofyr has joined.
21:24:06 <oklopol> hacking is impossible.
21:24:06 <dogface_> Actually, that's exactly what I'm planning.
21:24:08 <tusho> ais523: Like I run things as high-privileged users.
21:24:16 <oklopol> i don't believe in it
21:25:28 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: ping
21:27:50 <dogface_> My bot wouldn't be nearly as good as bsmnt_bot.
21:28:04 <dogface_> I don't suppose anyone other than me has a copy of it handy.
21:28:20 <tusho> You have bsmnt_bot?
21:28:22 <tusho> Well, then give me it!
21:28:32 <tusho> I -have- been trying to get it from bsmntbombdood for hours...
21:29:35 <dogface_> Okay.
21:29:48 <dogface_> Just want about three... no, five moments.
21:30:29 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: let me butt your sex
21:30:36 <oklopol> this'll sure wake him up.
21:33:31 <oklopol> dogface_: the comic opened!
21:33:45 <oklopol> not that i have any idea what you asked about it
21:33:48 <bsmntbombdood> ihope? reimplimenting bsmnt_bot?!?!
21:33:51 <bsmntbombdood> impossible!
21:33:56 <bsmntbombdood> there can be no replacement
21:34:05 <bsmntbombdood> that bot is a marvel of engineering
21:34:21 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: gimme
21:34:22 <tusho> it :(
21:34:30 <tusho> we need it!
21:34:35 <tusho> it's just one file of python, sheesh
21:35:12 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: is it a trade secret or something
21:35:16 <tusho> I mean I downloaded it on the other box
21:35:18 <tusho> I COULD go and get it
21:35:19 <bsmntbombdood> <tusho> it's just one file of python, sheesh
21:35:21 <oklopol> see? i woke him up
21:35:21 <bsmntbombdood> lololol
21:35:21 <tusho> but that would be annoying
21:35:30 <bsmntbombdood> the setup is actually really complicated
21:35:36 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: it's a chroot running one file of python.
21:35:41 <dogface_> oklopol: I asked what that tune would sound like?
21:35:43 <tusho> I know, blahbot` ran on it.
21:36:05 <oklopol> dogface_: 0.330.3.7.523.0. assuming the fifth note is 1/4 in length
21:36:05 <bsmntbombdood> i don't have it
21:36:10 <oklopol> looks like 1/2, but that makes less sense.
21:36:28 <dogface_> tusho: wait one moment and ask again.
21:36:34 <tusho> dogface_: (one moment) bsmnt_bot please.
21:37:01 <dogface_> tusho: did you wait one moment?
21:37:04 -!- tusho has left (?).
21:37:07 -!- tusho has joined.
21:37:08 <tusho> yes
21:37:21 <dogface_> Okay.
21:38:10 <dogface_> File with bsmnt is not existed. Sorry.
21:38:26 <oklopol> basically we have the rhythm theme |.|||.|., repeated two times, first time going up, then back down, jumps around in thirds, first and second third from 0 to 3, then we quickly play 7, and come back down with thirds again
21:38:35 <ais523> dogface_: what generates that sort of error?
21:38:42 <dogface_> ais523: me.
21:38:45 <tusho> ais523: ihope-speecherizer.
21:38:59 <ais523> it sounds like the sort of thing INTERCAL would come up with if it did file I/O
21:39:00 <oklopol> 0 .|||.|. 7 .|||.|.
21:39:11 <tusho> if i turned off nicks on irc, I could still distinguish oklopol, ais523, psygnisfive and ihope.
21:39:22 <dogface_> How do you turn off nicks on irc?
21:39:23 <ais523> as a change from the normal snarky message there's at least one with broken English instead
21:39:23 <oklopol> well i'm trivial
21:39:29 <oklopol> as is dogface_
21:39:31 <tusho> dogface_: Remove them from my template.
21:39:32 <psygnisfive> oklopol! :D
21:39:34 <oklopol> he's even easier
21:39:39 <oklopol> psygnisfive :DDDDDD
21:39:44 <psygnisfive> ::pounce::
21:39:46 <psygnisfive> <3you
21:39:49 <tusho> psygnisfive is also trivial as we can see
21:39:53 <ais523> tusho: there are others who are easily distinguishable too
21:39:56 <psygnisfive> how was boyscouting?
21:39:57 <tusho> and I've talked to ais523 that i can easily detect him
21:39:57 <dogface_> I think I have a distinctive habit of using both capital letters and periods.
21:40:06 <psygnisfive> where are my pictures of you in boyscout short shorts?
21:40:09 <oklopol> psygnisfive: that was ages ago, but it was okay
21:40:10 <tusho> I wouldn't be able to distinguish fizzie and lament
21:40:13 <tusho> most of the time
21:40:14 <oklopol> except for this one retarded kid
21:40:19 <tusho> I could distinguish AnMaster
21:40:22 <tusho> probably not Deewiant
21:40:29 <ais523> dogface_: I do sometimes, but normally I adhere to the IRC custom of no full stop at the end of a line nor capital letter at the start of a line.
21:40:45 <ais523> sometimes I write two sentences on a line. When I do it looks like this, which is strange
21:40:51 <AnMaster> tusho, ?
21:41:02 <tusho> AnMaster: talking about who we could distinguish on IRC if we didn't display nicknames
21:41:05 <ais523> AnMaster: we were discussing how to tell who said what when nicks were turned off
21:41:10 <tusho> ais523: I type like this. sometimes like this
21:41:13 <tusho> Occasionally, even like this.
21:41:16 <AnMaster> ais523, ah
21:41:20 <ais523> tusho: could you recognise optbot, do you think?
21:41:21 <optbot> ais523: although the numbers are sometimes different
21:41:31 <tusho> sometimes even like this, and i sometimes even say I although generally i go back to I sometime in the sentence if i do that
21:41:46 <tusho> if im very lazy ill abstain from all punctuation whatsoever
21:41:58 <ais523> nah, I normally leave apostrophes in except for typos
21:42:00 <AnMaster> posix_fadvise_fast()
21:42:01 <AnMaster> ;P
21:42:05 <ais523> and I use commas and semicolons more than other people
21:42:07 <AnMaster> easy to pick me out ;P!
21:42:08 <tusho> most importantly, though, my typing style adapts to those who are around me.
21:42:10 <oklopol> i like to write long obscure messages
21:42:14 <tusho> if someone types a certain way, I do too after a while
21:42:17 <tusho> until I'm comfortable with them
21:42:19 <AnMaster> tusho, ^
21:42:21 <tusho> when I pick up my own style of the momen
21:42:24 <ais523> Sgeo would be easy too, you look for who types about nomic and PSOX
21:42:24 <oklopol> ^ not an example of which, sadly
21:42:37 <AnMaster> tusho, posix_fadvise_fast()!
21:42:38 <AnMaster> ;P
21:42:41 <tusho> oklopol has a habit of being crazily concise
21:42:50 <psygnisfive> and cryptic
21:42:51 <tusho> and packing loads of info along with loads of punctuation diagrams into one message
21:43:02 <ais523> siltweaaabidnbncui
21:43:02 <tusho> that while incredibly comprehensive are hard to read
21:43:14 <tusho> ais523: asaufabcaufonasuchg
21:43:15 <AnMaster> tusho, I could pick out MikeReily anywhere
21:43:22 <dogface_> I want to be incredibly consise.
21:43:22 <tusho> AnMaster: i couldn't,,,,ehehehehhee...
21:43:29 <AnMaster> tusho, hahah! :P
21:43:29 <lament> pretty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ecliptic_path.jpg
21:43:37 <ais523> hi lament
21:43:44 <tusho> dogface_: so do I, I think it's an acquired skill
21:43:46 <ais523> and thanks for linking the image correctly
21:43:46 <tusho> oklopol is the only one who
21:43:51 <tusho> consistently manages to do it in here
21:43:54 <AnMaster> tusho, how would you pick me out?
21:43:58 <tusho> AnMaster: got
21:44:04 <AnMaster> tusho, well any other ways?
21:44:10 <dogface_> Is this incredibly concise?
21:44:12 <tusho> AnMaster: general awkward sentence structure :P
21:44:14 <tusho> dogface_: no
21:44:19 <dogface_> This?
21:44:20 <AnMaster> tusho, I got bad English?
21:44:21 <AnMaster> that bad?
21:44:27 <AnMaster> :(
21:44:27 <ais523> AnMaster: not exactly, it's just nonidiomatic
21:44:28 <tusho> no
21:44:30 <tusho> your english is very good
21:44:33 <AnMaster> thanks
21:44:35 <tusho> just non-idiomatic, like ais523 said :P
21:44:36 <AnMaster> apart from got/have
21:44:37 <ais523> you tend to use different constructions from native English people
21:44:38 <psygnisfive> anmaster where you from?
21:44:40 <lament> hi ais523
21:44:40 <AnMaster> ah
21:44:43 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, Sweden
21:44:46 <psygnisfive> ah.
21:44:49 <psygnisfive> right.
21:44:57 <psygnisfive> what got/have swap do you do?
21:44:58 <ais523> o
21:45:06 <oklopol> AnMaster: tusho, I got bad English? <<< intended to make a joke? :D
21:45:08 <tusho> psygnisfive: 'the standard got some issues'
21:45:12 <tusho> oklopol: i hope so :)
21:45:12 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, general issue of saying "got" instead of "have"
21:45:14 <psygnisfive> oh
21:45:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes it was so this time
21:45:21 <psygnisfive> actually that's almost ok
21:45:29 <psygnisfive> you just need an extra have in there.
21:45:35 <tusho> psygnisfive: has
21:45:36 <psygnisfive> "the standard has got some issues"
21:45:37 <tusho> has got some issues
21:45:37 <AnMaster> and I don't have why I say got instead
21:45:39 <AnMaster> err I mean got
21:45:40 <AnMaster> ;P
21:45:40 <tusho> even then it's still awkawrd
21:45:42 <psygnisfive> or "i have got bad english"
21:45:52 <psygnisfive> but mainly you'd contract it
21:45:53 <tusho> 'have got' is grating
21:45:57 <psygnisfive> "i've got"
21:46:03 <psygnisfive> or "the standard's got"
21:46:18 <oklopol> i've bad englishes
21:46:23 <oklopol> is how i'd say it
21:46:35 <ais523> I tend to typo a lot but I also tend to correct it before sending it to IRC
21:46:38 <ais523> unless the typo is particularly amusing
21:46:41 <tusho> no hablas espanol
21:46:43 <psygnisfive> infact, i dare say that saying "have" in such situations would sound quite awkward in american english
21:46:52 <tusho> ais523: navigating in single-line text is my enemy
21:46:59 <tusho> because while I hate using the keyboard to pinpoint an error a while back,
21:47:03 <ais523> tusho: I correct immediately after typing the typo
21:47:03 <tusho> i can't use the mouse for such a small thing
21:47:08 <oklopol> psygnisfive: tusho's point exactly
21:47:09 <tusho> ais523: I don't notice, often
21:47:16 <AnMaster> <tusho> ais523: navigating in single-line text is my enemy <-- eh?
21:47:16 <tusho> however, I often type 'm', backspace then 'o'
21:47:17 <ais523> tusho: get used to control-arrow if you want to do single-line navigation
21:47:21 <tusho> I start off the first two or so letters rwong
21:47:23 <psygnisfive> oklopol: actually the opposite of his point, which was that "Got" is awkward
21:47:25 <tusho> ais523: opt-arrow
21:47:26 <tusho> but even so
21:47:27 <tusho> it's tedious
21:47:30 <psygnisfive> whereas i mean to say "have" would be awkward
21:47:32 <ais523> tusho: ah, Mac
21:47:38 <psygnisfive> "the standard has some issues" <- weird
21:47:46 <tusho> psygnisfive: weird?
21:47:47 <psygnisfive> especially with adverbs
21:47:47 <tusho> hardly
21:47:48 <oklopol> psygnisfive: my point exactly!
21:47:50 <ais523> is control on a Mac like Super on Linux
21:47:50 <AnMaster> aha
21:47:53 <psygnisfive> "the standard still has some issues"
21:47:59 <tusho> ais523: no
21:47:59 <ais523> as in, hardly ever used except by a few dedicated programs?
21:47:59 <AnMaster> I prefer British English
21:48:03 <oklopol> i have a hard time following the ways of the world atm :D
21:48:04 <psygnisfive> "the standard's still got some issues"
21:48:06 <AnMaster> but I'm on too many IRC channels
21:48:08 <psygnisfive> better
21:48:15 <AnMaster> where American English is used
21:48:20 <oklopol> you're exceeding my reading speed.
21:48:20 <psygnisfive> but this is a difference between american english and british english
21:48:23 <AnMaster> I guess it influenced me
21:48:25 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm British but normally end up typing in a weird mix of British and American
21:48:41 <psygnisfive> british english uses "to have" more extensively than american english
21:48:48 <psygnisfive> "I'm sorry, I haven't a clue"
21:48:57 <psygnisfive> which is pretentious to american ears
21:48:59 <AnMaster> ais523, I also end up with a mix, I try to make a point of using ou instead of o in colour and such, but I often end up using z instead of s
21:49:06 <Mony> 'night
21:49:08 <psygnisfive> "I'm sorry, I haven't got a clue" is more appropriate
21:49:12 <ais523> I've ended up using both color and colour in the same sentence before
21:49:14 <ais523> and night mony
21:49:18 <Mony> thx :)
21:49:19 <psygnisfive> american english much prefers "have got" to "have"
21:49:20 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, blergh american!
21:49:20 <oklopol> i ain't a clue
21:49:33 <AnMaster> <ais523> and night mony <--??
21:49:39 <psygnisfive> in american english, it seems "have" is become just an indicator of perfective aspect
21:49:40 <ais523> <Mony> 'night
21:49:52 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I have a car or I got a car?
21:50:00 <AnMaster> I don't have or got a car btw
21:50:01 <ais523> I have a car is correct English
21:50:08 <ais523> but I don't have one either
21:50:08 <tusho> i never say color
21:50:10 <psygnisfive> actually thats more acceptable
21:50:18 <ais523> tusho: I've programmed in too many langs that spell it color
21:50:22 <psygnisfive> but the second would have to be "i've got a car"
21:50:26 <AnMaster> well I don't say colour or color, I say färg
21:50:27 <AnMaster> :P
21:50:28 <ais523> although refreshingly Allegro uses British English
21:50:34 <AnMaster> I *write* colour
21:50:35 <AnMaster> :P
21:50:48 <tusho> ais523: I bet gecko aliases colour->color
21:50:51 <tusho> because it must be pretty common
21:50:59 <ais523> quite possibly
21:51:08 <ais523> actually I think Allegro has #defines for American spellings
21:51:09 <tusho> i kind of dislike that though
21:51:11 <tusho> since it won't work in anything else
21:51:12 <ais523> but the british ones are used internally
21:51:15 <tusho> it's just promoting a habit that doesn't exist
21:51:17 <dogface_> American English prefers "have got" to plain old "have"?
21:51:19 <tusho> because before they implemented that
21:51:20 <tusho> nobody would use it
21:51:22 <AnMaster> reminds me of mysql ANALYSE vs. ANALYZE
21:51:22 <tusho> beacuse it wouldn't work
21:51:26 <dogface_> I thought that was British English that did that.
21:51:26 <psygnisfive> tusho: did you know that colour->color spelling changes were actually intentionally introduced by Webster with the intent of making a distinctly american dialect?
21:51:32 <tusho> psygnisfive: Yes.
21:51:34 <tusho> Fuck Webster.
21:51:48 <ais523> AnMaster: that was just awful, I haven't told them yet, I wonder if anyone else has noticed?
21:51:50 <oklopol> dogface_: i'd say they prefer "'ve got".
21:51:55 <psygnisfive> dogface_: all i know is, there seem to be many cases where "have" is unacceptable for possession
21:51:56 <AnMaster> ais523, tell them
21:52:05 <oklopol> "'ve" is a separate verb in american english, clearly
21:52:17 <psygnisfive> oklopol: maybe :)
21:52:25 <ais523> just like "was like" is a separate verb in modern English teenage slang, and one that sounds terrible
21:52:27 <AnMaster> who is Webster?
21:52:29 <psygnisfive> its either a verbal clitic, or something else
21:52:35 <psygnisfive> perfective clitic maybe
21:52:35 <ais523> AnMaster: made a famous dictionary
21:52:36 <psygnisfive> something
21:52:38 <AnMaster> ah
21:52:40 <lament> i know what program i want to write!
21:52:47 <tusho> ais523: when I was younger I despised teenage slang
21:52:47 <AnMaster> lament, oh?
21:52:52 <lament> a curses-based constellation map!
21:52:52 <tusho> somehow "dude" has creeped into my vocabulary
21:52:57 <ais523> tusho: do you still despise it?
21:53:01 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway how are my sentences non-ideomatic?
21:53:03 <tusho> ais523: yes
21:53:03 <dogface_> psygnisfive: can you give an example?
21:53:04 <ais523> and "dude" is outdated teenage slang
21:53:08 <AnMaster> err
21:53:10 <AnMaster> idiomatic
21:53:11 <psygnisfive> dogface_: example of?
21:53:13 <tusho> ais523: true, it should be homie
21:53:13 <tusho> :P
21:53:22 <AnMaster> lament, nice one
21:53:25 <tusho> i mostly use it as "dude..." though
21:53:25 <dogface_> psygnisfive: a case where "have" is unacceptable for possession.
21:53:28 <tusho> as in a "i cannot believe this"
21:53:37 <ais523> AnMaster: looking up, you have more of a tendency than other people to write noun phrases as a line by themselves
21:54:00 <ais523> <AnMaster> tusho, well any other ways?
21:54:06 <AnMaster> ais523, eh? You mean breaking the line in the middle on irc, that is because otherwise I can't keep up
21:54:09 <ais523> that's one example of non-idiomaticness
21:54:09 <dogface_> ais523 said "made a famous dictionary" without a subject to it.
21:54:10 <oklopol> dogface_: no one says "i have a car", you say "i's like a car and shit"
21:54:14 <psygnisfive> dogface_: i gave examples above. as i said, "the standard has some problems" sounds more akward than "the standard's got some problems"
21:54:22 <psygnisfive> and modifiers make it worse.
21:54:24 <ais523> AnMaster: I mean without the rest of the sentence
21:54:28 <AnMaster> ais523, <ais523> <AnMaster> tusho, well any other ways? <-- what would a native say?
21:54:32 <ais523> dogface_: that's a verb phrase
21:54:37 <tusho> AnMaster: "any other ways?" :P
21:54:38 <psygnisfive> tho its not completely awkward. but "got" sounds more natural to me
21:54:48 <ais523> "are there any other ways" or just "any other ways"
21:54:56 <AnMaster> tusho, you mean just drop the "well"?
21:54:56 <ais523> "well" without a comma at the start of a sentence is strange
21:54:59 <dogface_> psygnisfive: I guess I have little preferece.
21:55:00 <tusho> AnMaster: yes
21:55:03 <AnMaster> ais523, and that , was a typo
21:55:07 <ais523> even "well, any other ways" would be more common
21:55:07 <AnMaster> the , was there
21:55:10 <ais523> ah
21:55:12 <AnMaster> just failed to hit the keyu
21:55:13 <AnMaster> key*
21:55:17 <tusho> oh, and people hate me on irc
21:55:18 <psygnisfive> dogface_: maybe. anyway, obviously tusho's dialect forbids "got"
21:55:21 <ais523> but I don't see "well" written that often at the start of a sentence nowadays
21:55:22 <tusho> because I do stream-of-conciousness lines
21:55:23 <tusho> like this
21:55:24 <AnMaster> tusho, that is correct
21:55:31 <AnMaster> ;P
21:55:42 <tusho> I think it stems from an urge I've always had to beat people giving incorrect information
21:55:44 <AnMaster> tusho, and I do such lines too sometimes
21:55:47 <tusho> so I try and get it in before that
21:55:50 <tusho> subconcious now though
21:55:54 <AnMaster> ah yes
21:55:59 <ais523> I wonder what the record for keeping up a stream of conciousness is on IRC?
21:56:03 <AnMaster> I got the same tendency
21:56:04 <dogface_> "Excuse me, have you got a . . ." seems pretty British.
21:56:04 <AnMaster> I think
21:56:11 <ais523> I imagine there are some people who can keep one going for hours
21:56:12 <oklopol> i usually start my sentences with "err"
21:56:18 <ais523> regardless of what goes on in the rest of the channel
21:56:20 <psygnisfive> dogface_: yes but thats a different reason
21:56:20 <dogface_> ais523: me, at 45 lines unbroken?
21:56:21 <AnMaster> ais523, hahah
21:56:23 <tusho> ais523: well, I planned this sentence in advance
21:56:28 <tusho> and now I am writing this one on the spot
21:56:34 <ais523> dogface_: when did you do that?
21:56:34 <psygnisfive> in american english itd obviously be
21:56:38 <psygnisfive> "do you have a ..."
21:56:42 <oklopol> by this i *always* mean to imply anything other people may have said earlier is wrong, and erroneous
21:56:44 <dogface_> ais523: the first time or the second? :-P
21:56:47 <ais523> either
21:56:51 <ais523> I'd like to see it
21:56:51 <tusho> also, whenever I look at my irc client I always find myself having loads
21:56:52 <tusho> and loads
21:56:55 <tusho> of lines just by me
21:56:56 <psygnisfive> so theres clearly some other stuff going on beyond just got-have alternation
21:56:57 <tusho> and like 2-3 of others
21:56:58 <ais523> my record is 10 or so, I think
21:56:59 <tusho> and it makes me feel weird
21:57:01 <dogface_> Why don't I just give a demonstration? :-)
21:57:07 <psygnisfive> theres illocutionary point or whatever
21:57:10 <ais523> telling the channel about a new esolang even though nobody was listening
21:57:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, I use "err" to mark "wtf" or "hey, wait, that..."
21:57:26 <ais523> dogface_: because the chance of getting the rest of #esoteric to shut up while you do it is quite low at the moment
21:57:35 * dogface_ nods
21:57:46 <dogface_> I'll have to do it in #lobby.
21:57:57 <oklopol> tusho: i've filled pages with just myself even writing slow and long lines.
21:58:01 <AnMaster> ais523, any other non-idiomatic examples from me?
21:58:09 <tusho> oklopol: let
21:58:10 <tusho> 's do that
21:58:12 <tusho> in fact I think I'll do that
21:58:16 <tusho> iwthout the slow and long bit
21:58:20 <tusho> I mean I am just so awesome, right?
21:58:20 <tusho> hmm.
21:58:24 <tusho> I wonder ...
21:58:26 <tusho> new esolang ideas...
21:58:29 <tusho> well, something involving TRDS
21:58:33 <tusho> I always thought that could work well standalone
21:58:34 <tusho> But what?
21:58:34 <oklopol> the key is to speak about something no one cares about, just obscurely enough that people don't ask me what the fuck i'm talking about
21:58:38 <tusho> BF+TRDS isn't very interesting...
21:58:39 <tusho> Hm.
21:58:45 <dogface_> oklopol: that's what I do all the time.
21:58:46 <oklopol> err
21:58:50 <oklopol> *just sanely enough
21:59:05 <AnMaster> ais523, what languages apart from English do you know?
21:59:12 <dogface_> Have you ever heard me talk about alternative tunings in #music?
21:59:14 <oklopol> 23:57… AnMaster: oklopol, I use "err" to mark "wtf" or "hey, wait, that..." <<< yes, so do i, forgot my joke tag
21:59:27 <tusho> AnMaster: well, I know C
21:59:29 <tusho> and ruby
21:59:31 <ais523> AnMaster: just English, I have a GCSE in Latin but that isn't really enough to "know" it
21:59:31 <tusho> and python
21:59:33 <tusho> and ...
21:59:39 <ais523> and lots of programming langs of course
21:59:45 <tusho> oh you mean natural languages
21:59:49 <tusho> nope, I have/got nothing
21:59:56 <ais523> tusho: it's "have"
21:59:58 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
22:00:00 <ais523> in that sentence
22:00:03 <tusho> ais523: i was making a joke
22:00:09 <ais523> tusho: so was I
22:00:19 <ais523> I thought it would be funny to correct you for once rather than AnMaster
22:00:22 <AnMaster> oklopol, hah
22:00:25 <AnMaster> well night all
22:00:30 <ais523> night AnMaster
22:00:36 <oklopol> 23:55… AnMaster: tusho, and I do such lines too sometimes <<< i'd say "doing" lines is non-idiomatic
22:00:58 <oklopol> unless you're rehearsing for a play or somehting
22:00:59 <ais523> oklopol: agreed
22:00:59 <oklopol> dunno
22:01:01 <oklopol> *something
22:01:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, um, I consider line a first class object with the operator do ;P
22:01:03 <oklopol> eat ->
22:01:05 <AnMaster> j/k
22:01:26 <oklopol> AnMaster: well i'd use that too, but i don't usually care if i'm non-idiomatic, just sharing my feelings.
22:01:31 <oklopol> hmm
22:01:35 <oklopol> eatance ->
22:01:39 <AnMaster> (esobable btw)
22:01:47 <AnMaster> ok
22:01:55 <psygnisfive> eatance?
22:01:56 <psygnisfive> :P
22:03:03 <AnMaster> night really now
22:03:11 <ais523> night
22:03:18 <tusho> night
22:03:21 <ais523> o
22:03:22 <oklopol> psygnisfive: the act of eating
22:03:30 <psygnisfive> :p
22:03:34 <psygnisfive> "eating" is the act of eating. :)
22:04:10 <oklopol> oh! right! thank you language wizard!
22:04:32 <psygnisfive> :p
22:04:55 <AnMaster> um
22:05:01 <ais523> night AnMaster
22:05:23 <AnMaster> eatance is obviously the "essence" of performing eating
22:05:33 <AnMaster> niggt
22:05:36 <AnMaster> night*
22:05:39 <psygnisfive> or if you're german
22:05:45 <psygnisfive> "essence" is already the essence of eating :)
22:06:40 <AnMaster> eh?
22:06:40 <oklopol> "das essen" is the essence of eating in german. :)
22:06:41 <AnMaster> what?
22:06:54 <AnMaster> that makes no sense
22:06:56 <psygnisfive> essen means eating in german. or something.
22:07:12 <AnMaster> ah
22:07:19 <psygnisfive> essence :D
22:07:19 <oklopol> essen = eat, fressen = eat if you're an animal, messen = measure
22:07:23 <AnMaster> well I'm Swedish
22:07:29 <AnMaster> and I really need to sleep
22:07:33 <psygnisfive> whats swedish for "eating"?
22:07:40 <AnMaster> to eat = äta
22:07:48 <AnMaster> we don't have the -ing form
22:07:48 <psygnisfive> ätance
22:07:54 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire...").
22:07:56 <olsner> das essen = the eating?
22:08:02 <AnMaster> and ance makes no sense
22:08:08 <psygnisfive> thats not the point, anmaster
22:08:15 <AnMaster> olsner, sounds like a movie tittle
22:08:24 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, c is rather rare in Swedish
22:08:27 <AnMaster> we prefer k
22:08:28 <olsner> eating ~= tande
22:08:35 <AnMaster> olsner, better
22:08:42 <AnMaster> though not exactly same form
22:08:52 <AnMaster> as we don't have -ing form really
22:09:11 <AnMaster> olsner, also what language
22:09:17 <olsner> no, but I think it corresponds to one of the possible meanings of the -ing form at least
22:09:20 <oklopol> ätande?
22:09:23 <AnMaster> in bash ~= is regex match
22:09:26 <oklopol> isn't that -ing
22:09:32 <oklopol> in some cases that is
22:09:40 <olsner> AnMaster: think wavy-equals-sign
22:09:49 <oklopol> oh
22:09:49 <AnMaster> olsner, ah
22:09:53 <AnMaster> use the unicode symbol
22:09:55 <oklopol> olsner said that already
22:09:58 <olsner> maybe tilde-backspace-equals would do it in ebcdic :D
22:10:00 <psygnisfive> ~= usually means "roughly equal to"
22:10:17 <oklopol> which either means me or my subconscious is a stinking liar, or that i rock at swedish
22:10:21 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, for me it means bash regex match :P
22:10:29 <psygnisfive> in MQL it means pseudoregex
22:10:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, gör du det? vad trevligt
22:11:12 <olsner> oklopol: you're finnish, right? so it's no surprise you have some command of swedish
22:11:35 <AnMaster> kanske kan vi bilda the hemliga svenska säskapet om esoteriska programmeringsspråk?!
22:11:43 <AnMaster> ;)
22:11:54 <AnMaster> eller bättre
22:12:00 <oklopol> olsner: finnish people hate swedish, that's the official status
22:12:16 <AnMaster> Hemliga svenska esoteriska programmeringssälskapet
22:12:20 <oklopol> AnMaster: finland has a greater percentage here
22:12:26 <AnMaster> olsner, vad tycker du?
22:12:30 <AnMaster> oklopol, aww :/
22:12:32 <olsner> slskap <3
22:12:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you, who else?
22:12:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, haha
22:12:53 <AnMaster> olsner, I vilken betydelse?
22:12:56 <AnMaster> ;P
22:13:06 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, what is MQL?
22:13:13 <psygnisfive> Metaweb Query Language
22:13:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, depends on where in Finland
22:13:26 <AnMaster> what about Torvalds?
22:13:35 <psygnisfive> a way of querying a Freebase-style database using JSON
22:13:38 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, hm and what is "metaweb"?
22:13:44 <psygnisfive> metaweb is a company :)
22:13:49 <oklopol> AnMaster: what?
22:13:57 <oklopol> greater percentage on this channel, and fizzie
22:14:08 <oklopol> also others but not online atm
22:14:12 <AnMaster> hrrm
22:14:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh well
22:14:22 <olsner> AnMaster: noterade bara din felstavning... sl + skap = slskap... vilket borde betyda ngonting i stil med "egenskapen att vara en sl"
22:14:24 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:14:33 <oklopol> unless torvalds was a LinuS joke
22:14:35 <AnMaster> olsner, oh
22:14:36 <oklopol> :D
22:14:47 <AnMaster> olsner, ingen svensk stavningskontroll
22:14:48 <AnMaster> :P
22:14:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, eh?
22:15:01 -!- Judofyr has joined.
22:15:02 <oklopol> AnMaster: long story.
22:15:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, Torvalds speak Swedish iirc
22:15:10 <oklopol> stavning? typing?
22:15:19 <AnMaster> oklopol, stavning == spelling
22:15:25 <AnMaster> so spellchecker
22:15:27 <oklopol> err well yes
22:15:43 <oklopol> ah right.
22:15:44 <AnMaster> oklopol, iirc Torvalds is finlandssvensk
22:15:48 <AnMaster> or whatever it is called
22:16:05 <AnMaster> but thatis just iirc
22:16:05 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:16:05 <oklopol> i was thinking more like spelling police, so had to check.
22:16:21 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
22:16:38 <AnMaster> oh no the spelling police is out underlining words in red!!!!!!!
22:16:40 <AnMaster> ;)
22:16:45 <AnMaster> haha
22:16:46 <olsner> if there was a spelling police, spell checks and spellcheckers is what they would have
22:17:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, Sälarnas sällskap för sälskap?
22:17:34 <AnMaster> ;P
22:17:36 <AnMaster> err
22:17:37 <AnMaster> olsner, ^
22:17:40 <AnMaster> wrong nick
22:17:50 <olsner> hihi
22:18:09 <AnMaster> olsner, borde låta mer formelt hrrm
22:18:21 <AnMaster> oh well
22:49:50 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection reset by peer).
22:50:08 -!- oklopol has joined.
23:01:58 <lament> http://pastebin.com/m29548d1d
23:02:10 <lament> big dipper on the left, cassiopeia on the right, polaris in the middle
23:02:28 <ais523> lament: ASCII-art stars?
23:02:35 <ais523> or is that a new constellation-based esolang?
23:02:45 <lament> haha
23:03:23 <lament> now if i pick a bunch of cool dots from unicode, i could make this look passable
23:04:00 <lament> one problem is, i suppose you can't really guess the aspect ratio
23:04:58 <lament> one thing i actually want to have
23:05:02 <tusho> lament: use curses to animate it
23:05:05 <lament> is a realistic planetarium
23:05:06 <tusho> then it should be clear
23:05:23 <lament> by realistic i mean "looks the way the sky actually does"
23:05:38 <lament> probably impossible, though
23:05:46 <LinuS> aww
23:06:07 <lament> (without a hemispherical display, anyway)
23:10:04 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"").
23:13:52 <psygnisfive> lament: lmfao you're insane. :)
23:14:48 <tusho> psygnisfive: Yeah, I bet he goes to channels about esoteric programming languages.
23:15:01 <psygnisfive> man, if he does, he's DEFINITELY insane
23:22:27 <lament> tusho: i would never do such a thing
23:22:39 <tusho> lament: Good.
23:22:44 <tusho> I prefer channels like this.
23:22:51 <tusho> Gay sex is a far less insane topic.
23:22:58 <lament> gay sex is natural.
23:23:29 <psygnisfive> lament how old are you again?
23:23:56 <lament> old enough that you won't rape me.
23:24:03 <psygnisfive> 90? D:
23:24:08 <tusho> lament is 2something isn't he
23:24:11 <tusho> or early 30s
23:24:16 <tusho> i am probably totally wrong
23:24:17 <tusho> :D
23:24:29 <lament> psygnisfive: would you rape me if i were 89?
23:24:36 <psygnisfive> no. :p
23:25:05 <tusho> lament: so how old are you actually
23:25:10 <lament> 23
23:25:25 <psygnisfive> ah so you're a year older than me
23:25:39 <lament> and twice as wise
23:25:56 <tusho> and 10x more mature :P
23:25:56 <psygnisfive> lol
23:26:01 <tusho> which doesn't mean lament is mature
23:26:05 <tusho> so much as psygnisfive ... isn't
23:26:16 <psygnisfive> lament, are you gonna take that shit form tusho? saying you're not mature?
23:26:28 <tusho> psygnisfive: Yes. Yes he is.
23:26:56 <lament> psygnisfive: No. In fact, I'm going to ban him right away.
23:27:05 <psygnisfive> D:
23:29:23 <tusho> lament: you're slow
23:29:35 <lament> tusho: slowness comes with maturity
23:29:45 <tusho> lament: how long until my ban?
23:29:46 <tusho> 3 months?
23:30:05 <lament> if you're lucky!
23:31:13 <tusho> lament: what is the latest possible date
23:31:41 <lament> January 19
23:31:54 <tusho> lament: i hope you remember that
23:32:02 <lament> ...2038
23:32:22 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
23:32:28 <tusho> lament: computers won't exist then
23:32:30 <psygnisfive> GASP
23:32:30 <tusho> nor will humans
23:32:35 <tusho> it'll be one big glob of singularity!
23:32:36 <psygnisfive> 19 JAN 2038?!
23:32:39 <psygnisfive> THE END!!!
23:32:52 <psygnisfive> i wonder if the singularity will run on unix
23:32:54 <psygnisfive> surely not
23:32:57 <psygnisfive> probably lisp or haskell
23:33:40 <dogface_> The singularity will actually first be achieved in a COBOL compiler.
23:33:48 <tusho> psygnisfive: Worse is better.
23:33:57 <tusho> Unix is a bunch of decentralized, tiny, flowing nodes.
23:34:00 <psygnisfive> intercal!
23:34:02 <dogface_> This will mean that everything will be written in COBOL, and computers will use COBOL for data storage.
23:34:07 <psygnisfive> we can program the singularity in intercal!
23:34:07 <tusho> Unified into one task.
23:34:11 <tusho> That is basically what a singularity is, is it not?
23:34:13 <lament> unix is a series of tubes.
23:34:19 <psygnisfive> tusho: no.
23:34:40 <psygnisfive> its not a dumptruck, its a series of pipes!
23:35:14 <dogface_> The Singularity is actually a lot more like an event horizon than a singularity.
23:35:22 <psygnisfive> dogface: its both! :o
23:35:43 <psygnisfive> an event horizon, in that its hard to see beyond it
23:36:00 <psygnisfive> but a singularity is that the models break down in it
23:36:09 <dogface_> No, it's an event horizon in that once you go past it, there's no going back.
23:36:27 <psygnisfive> dogface_: well, we don't know that as such
23:36:41 <dogface_> Actually, we could even call it something like the technological escape speed.
23:36:43 -!- alexbobp has joined.
23:37:10 <dogface_> (I don't like the term "escape velocity" because it implies that direction is important. A space shuttle pointed straight down would be just as effective, if Earth didn't get in the way.)
23:37:51 <alexbobp> so "escape speed" then?
23:38:05 <psygnisfive> dogface_: "escape velocity" is non-compositional. :P
23:38:13 <alexbobp> "escape speed" sounds like a custom drug
23:38:19 <LinuS> lol
23:38:51 <alexbobp> so who thinks it would be a good idea to make a bot that implements a simple functional language, and allows anybody to upload and run arbitrary functions?
23:39:01 <alexbobp> in a well-sandboxed way, of course.
23:39:14 <tusho> http://yudkowsky.net/essays/aibox.html sorta freaks me out. Intuitively obviously I believe I could trivially pass it but considering that two big AI peopley thingies failed it that kind of scares me.
23:39:26 <tusho> alexbobp: You mean EgoBot?
23:39:29 <tusho> Or bsmnt_bot?
23:39:33 <LinuS> array[0] = 1; array[1] = 1; for (i=2;i<maxfib;i++) array[i] = array[i-1] + array[i-2];
23:39:36 <alexbobp> tusho: oh, there are them?
23:39:40 <dogface_> alexbobp: everyone.
23:39:40 <bsmntbombdood> tusho: working on it
23:39:42 <tusho> alexbobp: EgoBot runs esolangs.
23:39:45 <tusho> bsmnt_bot runs Python.
23:39:46 <dogface_> psygnisfive: what does that mean?
23:39:51 <alexbobp> I personally had Object Disoriented in mind.
23:39:52 <psygnisfive> what does what mean?
23:39:54 <LinuS> is this the quickest way to do fibonacci without using recursion
23:40:02 <LinuS> or are there other smartest one?
23:40:10 <tusho> LinuS: That seems reasonable.
23:40:13 <dogface_> Why do you want to not use recursion?
23:40:16 <dogface_> :-)
23:40:21 <LinuS> because my eso language doesn't support it!
23:40:24 <alexbobp> LinuS: Do you want to compile a list or find a specific element?
23:40:26 <dogface_> I'm pretty sure there are much faster ways.
23:40:32 <LinuS> compile a list alexbobp
23:40:48 <alexbobp> LinuS: Because there is a formula with exponentiation and shit for just a single element, but that's the way to go for making a list.
23:41:01 <tusho> I dislike the secrecy element of the AI box.
23:41:01 <alexbobp> dogface_: Because using recursion is way slower unless you memoize, and then it's still slower
23:41:09 <tusho> I want to see how it was done. It should bepublic knowledge
23:41:24 <alexbobp> tusho: what's the AI box?
23:41:34 <LinuS> i've wrote another example for my irc-related esoteric language then :P
23:41:54 <dogface_> I'll look at AI box in a moment; first, I'll tell LinuS the faster way to calculate Fibonacci numbers, if there is one.
23:41:57 * dogface_ ponders
23:42:03 <psygnisfive> dogface_ what does what mean?
23:42:04 <tusho> alexbobp: http://yudkowsky.net/essays/aibox.html
23:42:16 <dogface_> psygnisfive: non-compositional.
23:42:21 <psygnisfive> oh
23:42:45 <dogface_> phi^2 = phi + 1. The fastest way to calculate phi^n is not by repeated multiplication; it's exponentiation by squaring.
23:42:55 <psygnisfive> the meaning of the phrase is not composed solely of the meaning of its parts
23:42:56 <psygnisfive> that is
23:43:11 <psygnisfive> "escape velocity" is not "velocity" to "escape"
23:43:19 <psygnisfive> it more than just that
23:43:19 <LinuS> rofl
23:43:24 <LinuS> http://rafb.net/p/Zrn36t47.html if someone wants :)
23:43:30 <LinuS> IRCEPL
23:43:49 <tusho> LinuS: beware, psygnisfive will probably claim it's trivial now
23:43:57 <LinuS> i see
23:44:08 <psygnisfive> whats trivial?
23:44:13 <tusho> psygnisfive: The languge he just pasted.
23:44:17 <tusho> I quite like it.
23:44:23 <psygnisfive> i shall look at it
23:44:27 <alexbobp> I'm going to need to clean up the syntax a bit though. Object Disoriented looks like it was designed to be totally unreadable.
23:44:41 <LinuS> the fibonacci example is at bottom
23:47:48 <psygnisfive> tusho: i dont even know what his language is doing there.
23:47:59 <tusho> psygnisfive: maybe you could read the text
23:48:02 <tusho> instead of just the code samples
23:50:47 <bsmntbombdood> remember that language i invented?
23:50:49 <psygnisfive> in my opinion code should be vaguely transparent. :(
23:50:52 <bsmntbombdood> that was an awesome language
23:50:56 <psygnisfive> but then, it wouldnt be entirely esoteric
23:52:03 <tusho> psygnisfive: you are arguing that you should be able to read languages you don't know
23:52:04 <tusho> which is silly
23:52:08 <tusho> you'd have to dumb them down
23:52:26 <psygnisfive> no, im not saying that you should be able to read it
23:52:33 <LinuS> i think ircepl is quite transparent to be honest o.o'
23:52:33 <psygnisfive> just that it should be generally followable
23:52:39 <LinuS> isn't it?
23:52:54 <psygnisfive> i mean, when i first looked at some haskell code it was obvious what it was doing, to some extent
23:52:56 <psygnisfive> not ALL of it but
23:53:30 <tusho> psygnisfive: just read the damn text
23:53:31 <tusho> it won't kill you
23:53:37 <psygnisfive> ;)
23:57:37 <tusho> psygnisfive: thoughts?
23:57:52 <tusho> I think it's funny that you could use it for both weird esoteric programming AND silly little irc bots
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