00:00:44 Intentional vagueness is not humor. 00:01:00 It is an offense punishable by death. 00:01:10 pikhq: So's your face. 00:01:12 And that's what SHE said! 00:01:49 http://www.xkcd.com/169/ 00:01:58 'night 00:02:30 pikhq: I was being very specific. 00:02:34 i was asking what I was full of. 00:03:06 You suck at punctuation. 00:03:11 And for that, you die. 00:04:23 pikhq: Hey, I have an idea. Let's make people die for various unimportant reasons. 00:05:19 "Hey, you there!" "Yeah?" "You're in front of me." *bang* 00:05:42 :) 00:06:09 "Hi, how are you?" *bang* "How dare you use abbreviations like 'hi'. The English language demands blood." 00:28:34 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:41:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | tix=0 tid=0 x=4 y=6: (32). 01:12:00 -!- tusho has quit ("Leaving..."). 02:28:45 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 03:06:01 oklopol! 03:22:02 -!- dogface_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:40:36 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 04:40:43 Eso people! 04:40:47 Tell me! 04:40:54 Tell me what the fuck is this shit. 04:56:42 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:00:01 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:16:29 -!- cathyal has joined. 05:17:53 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 05:30:53 -!- cherez has left (?). 05:31:11 -!- cathyal has left (?). 06:09:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:19:21 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 06:41:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you want to use abs() or arg() (or corresponding maxima functions) if you want to see the strange-ness I mentioned.. 07:53:21 -!- asiekierka has joined. 07:53:23 Hi 07:53:29 I'm making a Tap Code interpreter/decoder in BF 07:53:42 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:54:01 I wonder how to check if a value is more than 10, because if it is, i need to add 1 to it 07:55:14 oh wait 07:55:17 i found how maybe 07:55:26 or not 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:29:19 lol, ASM to BF 08:29:21 hard to hard 08:34:12 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:34:50 -!- Judofyr has joined. 08:36:04 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 08:46:43 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 08:55:37 -!- jemarch has joined. 08:55:37 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:08:22 -!- asiekierka has joined. 09:10:41 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:17:23 morning 09:18:34 Mony: (I only have 807 comment karma too. People just can't accept someone who's INFALLABLY RIGHT) 09:18:34 AnMaster: modern mail clients, probably including gmail, make it really difficult not to :( 09:18:39 that sounds like tusho saying it 09:23:17 hi 09:23:27 I wonder what can i make in BF 09:23:29 Maybe a game? 09:27:27 asiekierka, you could make almost anything, after all brainfuck is turing complete 09:29:31 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:34:12 -!- asiekierka has joined. 09:34:43 AnMaster: But a BF game! 09:34:55 A non-text adventure BF Game is impossible 09:35:00 since there's no command like, delay 09:35:10 Heh 09:35:32 If there was a delay command, EVERYTHING would be possible 09:36:42 asiekierka, hm? you could wait for input if that is what you mean 09:37:00 Possibly 09:37:04 and a turn based game with ASCII art like nethack is perfectly possible 09:37:11 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:37:11 Yes 09:37:16 But what about a game needing timing 09:37:31 asiekierka, well that would need more advanced IO, like async IO 09:37:38 Or just one more command 09:37:46 | - delay for 1/60th of a second 09:42:42 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 09:43:50 asiekierka, not really, you will still block on user inpuyt 09:43:52 input* 09:43:58 so it will still be turn based 09:45:04 wait I just got an idea for making Funge98 sound enterprisy! 09:46:00 you will always find IO shit you need to make new stuff possible 09:46:01 'Concurrent Funge-98, features advanced "green threads"' 09:46:03 user space ones 09:46:04 :) 09:46:11 adding | will not let you shoot lazers. 09:46:12 you could probably extend that 09:46:26 "no need for special sync primitives" 09:46:27 and so on 09:46:49 I think i will make something BF-like but simpler 09:46:53 i meant 09:46:55 nethack-like 09:47:03 Input will need to be the map, then user input 09:47:04 do it ! 09:47:17 Also 09:47:27 my friend is doing a BF selfbooting floppy disk 09:47:28 For now 09:47:33 it'll support up to 64KB of BF code 09:47:35 enough? 09:47:40 asiekierka, not really 09:47:46 lostkingdom is around 2 MB iirc? 09:47:49 isn't it? 09:47:54 JUST lostkingdom 09:47:56 and yeah 09:48:03 but it wouldn't fit on a floppy drive anyway 09:48:24 2.1 MB 09:48:40 and a floppy disk 09:48:42 is 1.44MB 09:48:45 true 09:48:45 so forget about it 09:49:01 Maybe if the author will convert the un-enhanced version 09:49:08 And my friend will get rid of the 64kb limit 09:49:09 hm 09:49:10 both unlikely 09:49:11 you can trivially compress it into a meg 09:49:16 into bf bytecode 09:49:21 oklopol, ah yes 09:49:25 BF bytecode, yeah 09:49:27 but no 09:49:32 and you can optimize it in various ways 09:50:05 for example I generated a C version from it, optimized but used a lot of space for other reasons, the binary was around as large as the source 09:50:07 I think we could just ask the author to convert the original non-extended version 09:50:14 but the compiler did all kinds of optimizing 09:50:22 Since most of the bonus space is long room version text 09:50:24 like combining ++-- and <> and so on 09:50:33 Oh yeah 09:50:38 and from a BFBASIC direct conversion 09:50:42 we can except that stuff, right 09:50:45 With a simple filter 09:50:46 oh and [-] -> "zero cell" 09:50:51 copying only BF chars, without newlines and stuff 09:50:58 i got it down by 50kb 09:50:58 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving."). 09:51:05 asiekierka, yeah that too 09:51:14 but what I talked about was very un-bft 09:51:17 bfy* 09:51:31 as it replaced +++ with "add 3" 09:52:05 if the number of > and < in a loop is balanced you could probably optimize that too 09:52:08 by renumbering 09:53:01 say [+>-<+] could be changed into [>-<++] which could then be changed into "substract 1 from next cell, add two to current cell" 09:53:29 so the resulting code didn't even need to move the pointer 09:53:35 hi 09:54:06 yet I haven't figured out a good algorithm to do it 09:54:52 about my turnbased map thing, it wouldnt be that easy 09:54:56 Or it will 09:55:09 asiekierka, programming in a tarpit is never easy IMO 09:55:17 I can store it like: Xsize, Ysize, playerx, playery, (map for X*Y cells) 09:55:31 Also, i dont know BF well yet 09:55:48 well it is pretty easy, just 8 instructions :P 09:56:16 but as in 09:56:22 i dont know ways to do cool stuff in it yet 09:56:33 well that is the hard bit :P 09:57:06 Im still slightly wondering how to check whether a value is 10 or more. I thought subtracting 9 from it, but that wouldn't work if the value is < 9 09:58:21 Subtracting while checking if it goes zero? Uh, no. I'd need to check the other value too. 09:58:58 brb, going to toy around with Portals 10:45:10 ok 10:45:11 backkkk 10:45:26 Is there a good brainfuck tutorial 10:51:31 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Jesus loves you"). 10:57:11 no clue 10:57:15 I prefer befunge 10:59:02 I am going to make a BF Function Collection 10:59:05 collection of BF functions 11:02:43 what algos were you thinking? 11:02:52 there's a bunch in existance already on esolangs.org 11:03:43 asiekierka: Subtracting while checking if it goes zero? Uh, no. I'd need to check the other value too. <<< what other value? 11:05:29 Everything 11:05:32 Every useful piece of code 11:06:01 But something like that 11:07:22 +[> 11:07:22 ,>,[>+++++<-]<[->>+<<]>>> now we have the tap code value in cell 3; Yay 11:07:31 That's what i did before i was stuck 11:07:39 how to check if the value is larger than 10 11:07:41 tap code? 11:07:45 Yes. 11:07:53 It doesn't have K and substitutes C for K 11:07:53 now what is that? 11:08:08 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_Code 11:08:08 :( 11:08:12 ...lice this? 11:08:14 -!- Sgeo has joined. 11:08:22 Yes 11:08:30 k. 11:08:33 Centrainly, you're right, oclopol. 11:08:37 And since K isn't there 11:08:43 and J is at position 10, K isn't there, so L is at 11 11:08:46 Oops! A problem 11:09:05 If the tap code position value is greather than 10, i must add one to it 11:09:09 otherwise leave it ALONE 11:09:18 what? 11:09:26 don't you just find all k's and substitute c for them? 11:09:30 No. 11:09:42 Not that easy. 11:09:51 A=1, B=2, C=3... got it? 11:09:52 J=10 11:09:59 K isn't there, L=11... ha. 11:10:09 Normally, it'll be K=11, L=12 11:10:15 And i'm decoding tap code 11:10:17 not ENcoding 11:11:10 well tap code wasn't just english with k->c 11:11:17 this i didn't know 11:11:26 And it works like this 11:11:40 i know how it wors 11:11:42 *works 11:11:49 now that the wikipedia page opened 11:11:59 That's why i need to check if x > 10 11:12:02 without destroying it 11:12:21 If it is, add one to x 11:12:28 If it is not, leave x alone 11:12:51 You can use every cell after cell 3 11:13:08 counting from cell 0 11:13:24 -[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[current cell != 0, add 10 to get original]]]]]]]]]] 11:13:41 But it can't be just != 0 11:13:48 This isn't enough 11:13:53 Oh wait 11:14:00 if it goes in, it was more than 10. 11:14:14 if not, then it either already was in, or it was less than 10 11:14:30 Ok 11:14:34 when you go in, you can set up a flag to signify you were in, so when you get out, you can check whether you were in 11:14:39 this is a simple way to do if's 11:14:52 What if it doesn't go in? How to get the value back to normal 11:14:55 wait, i can just copy it 11:14:59 If i dont get inside the loop 11:15:03 I can just re-copy the value 11:15:23 if it doesn't go in, current cell has become 0. 11:15:30 and yes 11:15:31 exactly 11:16:42 Now let me think. 11:16:58 Ok. 11:17:26 I needed to check how to skip the second code part if i executed the first one 11:17:28 A flag 11:17:29 :) 11:20:35 Oh, nearly done. 11:20:53 Now i must add 65 to the output value, output it, return to cell 0 and close the loop. Yay. 11:20:59 Writing the rest of code 11:23:34 -!- tusho has joined. 11:24:49 one out of 1542623412 of all possible functions done then. 11:24:59 Now debugging 11:25:01 lolololol 11:25:08 Since i think I did something wrong 11:25:20 I must check if i followed all the cell positions correctly 11:25:26 I think i'm adding A to the wrong place 11:25:38 Oh 11:25:47 I forgot to decrase 48 from both values 11:26:32 o 11:26:57 But thats not the problem 11:28:20 1) The first loop (multiplying) wasnt executed at all. 11:29:04 i love it when I wake up to an alive #esoteric! 11:29:04 :) 11:29:42 oklopol, must fix your bit 11:32:32 Fixing 11:32:36 currently half of code fixed 11:33:20 OMG 11:33:23 IT'S DONE 11:33:35 except that i must add 3 characters near the end: 11:33:36 [-] 11:33:53 -!- RedDak has joined. 11:34:09 hopefully i have this bffilter app my friend made for me 11:34:21 it filters everything, only the bf chars go through 11:35:11 174 bytes for a tap code decoder 11:37:52 nope 11:37:59 when fixed everything (a one-time run now) 11:38:02 it's 162 bytes 11:38:06 But it only works on BrainfuckMachine 11:38:08 I'm not sure I'd call a brainfuck filter an "app", given that you can just pipe your file through something like ... | perl -pne 's/[^,.<>\[\]+-]//g' | ... 11:38:17 right 11:38:20 but i dont have perl :P 11:38:35 it's not a real app 11:38:37 an utility 11:38:51 Bhrrrr. I'd feel all lost and alone on a system without a Perl. 11:39:20 http://rafb.net/p/UlJIr252.html 11:39:25 can anyone test it on his machine 11:39:38 Input numbers: 3 and 2, respectively 11:39:44 as in, ascii chars "3" and "2" 11:39:48 should output N 11:40:18 oh wait it works 11:40:30 you dont need to test 11:40:40 Oh wait 11:40:49 It does seem to work. 11:40:50 fizzie: He's on windows. 11:41:09 The first line doesnt work 11:41:13 it always outputs A 11:41:23 if you use 3, 1; 4, 1; etc 11:41:44 Hey, I found the brainfuck interpreter I wrote for the C programming course homework. 11:41:56 My program is very buggy AFAIK though 11:42:01 But it's my first BF program 11:42:03 main(j,a,n,t)int*a;{unsigned short p=-1;char*r=calloc(n=p+1,6),*i=r+n,**k=i+n;for(read(open(*++a,t=0),i,p);n=*i-43,t<0?n-48?n-50||++t:--t:n?n-2?n-19?n-17?n-3?n-48?n-50?n-1||read(0,r+p,1):p[r]?i=k[j]:j--:p[r]?k[++j]=i:t--:putchar(p[r]):p--:p++:p[r]--:p[r]++,*i++;);} 11:42:04 so let's do a YAY 11:42:40 asiekierka: Er, you've been nabbing on about organizing brainfuck contests and thinking of various large projects (like games) to code in BF since 2007. 11:42:49 And you've only just wrote your first trivial brainfuck program? 11:42:56 Yeeeesss... i think 11:43:02 * tusho facepalm 11:43:07 you mean 11:43:15 oh wait 11:43:19 no, nothing 11:43:30 Maybe i did something else 11:43:37 but i don't really recall 11:43:48 fizzie: As the other active person, can you share in my facepalm? 11:43:53 One just doesn't seem to be enough 11:43:58 :/ 11:44:11 :p 11:44:21 But no, seriously. I just liked the BF concept 11:44:26 but was too lazy to do something in it 11:44:32 I was learning all the esolangs in 2007 11:44:35 asiekierka: perhaps you should focus on the text editor instead of the irc window :) 11:44:38 s/learning/reading about 11:44:48 in 2008 i continued it 11:45:04 Now i was finally bored enough to make a BF app. 11:45:21 also, does optbot have bf running functionality 11:45:22 asiekierka: hush tusho 11:45:36 hash tusho? okay 11:45:41 hush 11:45:45 i know 11:45:49 but i just dont get "hush tusho" 11:46:02 probably psygnisfive said it to me when I was talking 11:46:06 he doesn't like me talking, generally. 11:46:14 But tusho, does optbot have BF code running functionality? 11:46:14 asiekierka: i might just try that CW6670 one 11:46:20 asiekierka: yes. just ask it 11:46:52 optbot, !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@ 11:46:52 asiekierka: too bad you can't use UPnP or whatever 11:46:57 :( 11:47:00 !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@ 11:47:08 Nope. 11:47:09 asiekierka: you have to ask him in plain english! 11:47:14 he has an AI... 11:47:17 I know you're lying 11:47:20 I know you're lying 11:47:24 well, I'm not 11:47:26 but fine 11:47:30 Try it, then 11:47:32 be without brainfuck code running functionality 11:47:40 optbot: Can you interpret BF? 11:47:40 tusho: Swhacks were voluntary point deduction. 11:47:48 Uh 11:47:52 i thought it has an AI 11:47:56 it does 11:47:57 or at least 11:47:58 you told me 11:48:01 Ok 11:48:03 it just has operating hours 11:48:06 :( 11:48:09 it makes sense every now and then 11:48:13 Im just going to put up my own BF bot here 11:48:13 and spews crap all the other times 11:48:23 why not just use optbot 11:48:24 tusho: to python 11:48:28 optbot, do you love tusho? 11:48:28 asiekierka: would it go 50 times faster? 11:48:32 LMAO 11:48:48 optbot, if you love him, it will 11:48:49 asiekierka: >>> bf ,[.,] <<< ?infinite loop 11:48:57 Haha 11:48:58 he made sense 11:49:02 no 11:49:03 he made sense 11:49:06 i didn't make sense at all 11:49:41 I need to put up a BF bot here 11:49:50 how to run raw .java files? 11:49:56 do you need to compile them 11:50:02 oh wait 11:50:05 i have a bf interpreter for mirc 11:50:10 maybe 11:51:22 I pasted a C brainfuck interpreter just few lines ago; does your Perl-less system also lack a C compiler? 11:51:28 no 11:51:31 i have a C compiler 11:51:53 Also, i need to make an OS for BF 11:52:05 I will need a BF self-interpreter for it xD 11:52:19 Bye all 11:52:25 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 11:52:25 fizzie: He wants it as an irc bot. 11:52:43 fizzie: Also, now that he has written his first trivial BF program, seems he is back to aspirations of writing an OS in it. 11:52:56 Not necessairly 11:53:00 Well, his mirc script can execute the compiled C interpreter. Or something. 11:53:01 Just fantasying around 11:53:40 Hmm. 11:53:55 Sketch for a very short brainfuck interp in C: 11:54:15 Implement each instruction in asm. 11:54:20 Then, have a character array with it all in 11:54:26 (pad it out with nops so they're all the same length) 11:54:44 Then do some modulo stuff into the table and cast it to a function and call it or something. 11:54:46 I don't know. :P 11:55:31 I'm not convinced it would be much shorter than, say, my 270-character one. 11:56:51 fizzie: Well, [[main="machine code";]] would probably be shorter. :P 11:57:42 Hmm... 11:57:47 How do you say "return 0" in machine code... 11:58:00 x86 obviously 11:58:15 Depends on the calling convention. Usually something like "mov eax, 0; ret" 11:58:26 Yes, I know the asm. 11:58:32 I guess I'll just have to assemble it huh 11:58:33 :P 11:58:55 -!- asiekierka has quit. 11:59:59 0x66, 0x31, 0xc0, 0xc3. 12:00:15 Hmm. 12:00:15 If you do xor eax, eax; ret. The 'mov' instruction is longer, what with the four-byte literal in there. 12:00:21 Ah. :P 12:00:50 -!- asiekierka has joined. 12:01:03 So: "f1\300\303" 12:01:23 Hmph. 12:01:23 zsh: illegal hardware instruction ./a.out 12:02:42 Actually I think it might be just "0x31 0xc0 0xc3" in the normal automatically-32-bit x86 mode. I'm not sure of my nasm flags. 12:02:59 fizzie: The \0 that C puts at the end of strings wouldn't break it, would it? 12:03:31 No. Seems not. 12:03:57 Geh. Same error. 12:04:03 * tusho main(){return 0;} 12:04:05 er 12:04:08 main(){return 0;} 12:04:11 main="foobarbaz"; 12:04:16 Hmm. 12:04:23 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:04:23 Looks like I'm not saving much if anything. :P 12:04:48 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 12:05:26 -!- asiekierka has quit. 12:10:07 I couldn't get a raw-assembler .c file that GCC would bother compiling without doing: 12:10:11 char main[3] __attribute__ ((section (".text"))) = "1\300\303"; 12:10:25 (It wanted to segfault without the section attribute.) 12:10:31 fizzie: Hmph. 12:10:34 That kind of sucks. 12:10:41 Wasn't there an IOCCC entry that took the form: 12:10:43 main="...";? 12:11:04 -!- asiekierka has joined. 12:11:08 Haven't seen, but could be. I'm not sure if x86_64 is a bit pickier with this stuff, anyway. 12:11:32 hahahahh linkinus grabs ops when it c an 12:11:33 [12:11:08] ← asiekierka left the channel. () 12:11:33 [12:11:08] ← tusho left the channel. ("Boing!") 12:11:33 [12:11:08] → tusho joined the channel. 12:11:44 as soon as the channel goes empty it seems to cycle to get ops 12:12:08 An opportunistic client. 12:12:32 you know i wouldnt come in that channel back anyway 12:12:40 and who'd even like to have a channel #lold 12:17:26 -!- asiekierka has quit (Nick collision from services.). 12:29:14 -!- asiekierka has joined. 12:29:51 Inspired by the newest userfriendly comic: "I need an esoteric language that will make me into a millionaire. Can you code it for me?" 12:31:41 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:32:45 -!- asiekierka has joined. 12:32:55 Crashed mIRC with /brainfuck +[]. 12:32:58 Was bored. 12:33:46 what you worked on in esolangs lastly? 12:41:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | simply. 12:41:58 optbot! 12:41:59 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i'm too tired to implement any trig functions. 12:42:09 optbot! 12:42:09 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | the pencil sharpener in my biology classroom is so good that the PPS is actually blowing out of the pencil sharpener, so that if you put a pencil too close to it, the pencil becomes sharpened.. 12:42:20 that stays 12:45:21 I hate it when i'm back and everyone is off 12:47:22 meh 12:52:31 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 12:52:31 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:53:14 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:04:10 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:32:01 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:34:00 If you were given a chance to buy something computer-related, but only one thing, no matter how much it costs, what would you buy? 13:34:45 asiekierka: a machine that can make any machine 13:34:59 but the thing you want to get 13:35:00 must exist 13:35:02 right now 13:35:07 or 13:35:10 it could be from the past 13:35:11 or the present 13:35:13 but NOT the future 13:35:39 asiekierka: I'd wait until someone made such a machine. 13:35:52 But you'll be given a chance only for one day 13:35:59 I'd personally buy a supercomputer 13:36:15 the #1 or #2 supercomputer on the TOP 500 list 13:36:23 Then i'll set it to compute BF programs 13:36:26 and go to sleep... 13:36:54 i wake up, and there waits a 1GB BF program 13:36:59 That is in fact a port of NetHack. 13:37:04 with a lot of bonuses 13:43:16 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:43:46 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:02:05 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 14:12:14 I'm bored. 14:12:18 Any ideas on what to do? 14:14:16 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:14:33 asiekierka: go outside 14:14:39 can't 14:14:42 why 14:14:46 i'm alone in the house, it's locked 14:14:50 can't go outside 14:14:51 ah 14:14:55 I meant 14:14:58 something in BF maybe 14:15:03 as i have like, 2-3 hours of free time 14:15:17 not that many BF programs that are yet to be written by now :P 14:15:29 What is there left to do 14:15:41 except optimizing "hello world" of course 14:16:03 egobot has pretty much got hello world down 14:16:08 as far as optimizing goes 14:16:33 what's the smallest BF code that says "Hello World!" then 14:17:10 also wheres egobot 14:18:25 1. esowiki page 14:18:28 2. gone 14:19:16 I have a smaller hello world 14:19:44 113bytes 14:19:56 use the genetic evolution thing 14:20:12 wait, BF has a "genetic evolution thing"? 14:20:29 Only if it could reproduce 14:20:50 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@ 14:20:56 Is there a way to optimize THAT hello world? 14:21:01 i found in my collection 14:21:07 is there a smaller one 14:21:10 i think so. 14:21:19 i've seen a 104-byte 14:21:21 from egobot 14:22:23 no, its not mine 14:22:28 What 14:22:31 a 104-byte 14:22:36 Oh god 14:22:51 Egobot must be back. NOW. 14:26:35 asiekierka: you are obsessing over BF too much 14:27:14 But i like BF 14:27:26 Ok 14:27:34 asiekierka: it's a good language but there are other esolangs... 14:27:35 So propose me another esolang to obsess over 14:27:42 how about underload 14:27:43 or befunge 14:27:47 Befunge is out 14:27:48 SNUSP 14:27:48 Path 14:27:51 and why 14:27:55 SNUSP and Path are ones of my favs 14:28:00 Befunge has too many commands 14:28:04 no it doesn't 14:28:07 and that's a ridiculous reason 14:28:27 in my opinion it has too much 14:28:31 106 bytes: ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+. 14:28:37 asiekierka: Esoteric != "has little commands." 14:28:41 That's called a tarpit. 14:28:45 Oh 14:28:45 There is interestingness beyond tarpits 14:28:46 (from http://helloworldsite.he.funpic.de/hello.htm#BrainFuck ) 14:28:52 so i like Turing tarpits then. 14:29:11 asiekierka: And turing tarpits tend to be the least interesting esolangs. 14:29:23 I like them the most 14:29:29 Also, useful joke languages. 14:29:41 (like any exist) 14:29:46 (like Befunge) 14:29:53 don't be surprised if people don't seem to respond to you then. 14:30:01 most of us are bored of tarpits by now 14:30:13 I'm bored of being bored 14:30:19 we can tell 14:30:22 or at least I can 14:30:45 No, srsly, befunge has a little too much stuff for me 14:30:52 It can do everything 14:30:53 But 14:30:55 But... 14:31:07 asiekierka please look up the befunge page on the wiki 14:31:12 I'm looking 14:31:25 if that has too many commands your taste in esolangs is terminally boring 14:31:45 36 (or 27 if you count 0-9 as one). 14:31:48 Compare it to 8. 14:32:34 also 14:32:47 i would need to get a selfbootable befunge interpreter 14:32:48 then 14:32:58 asiekierka: HAVING A FEW COMMANDS DOES NOT MAKE AN ESOLANG BAD 14:33:09 HAVING TO RUN AN INTERPRETER ON AN OPERATING SYSTEM DOES NOT MAKE AN ESOLANG BAD EITHER 14:33:12 jee 14:33:12 z 14:34:01 BEING AN IDIOT DOES NOT MAKE A PERSON BAD EITHER 14:34:25 But oh well 14:34:30 I will do something in Befunge 14:34:32 If you want 14:34:35 asiekierka: are you calling me an idiot? 14:34:40 well, thanks 14:34:44 no 14:34:46 i'm calling myself 14:34:47 an idiot 14:34:59 because i behave like one 14:35:04 saying 25 commands is too much 14:35:22 and staying with BF 14:35:22 why do you always call yourself an idio 14:35:23 t 14:35:27 you spend like half of your time doing that 14:35:39 Because everyone convinces me i am 14:36:25 Also 14:36:29 is there a befunge tutorial 14:37:07 not sure 14:37:08 probably 14:37:50 there is 14:40:28 ugh 14:40:32 Two links failed 14:40:36 (for an interpreter 14:40:42 ) 14:40:50 three! 14:40:54 yayz :/ 14:41:08 finally found something 14:41:16 i think cfunge can interpret -93 as well as -98 14:41:16 :P 14:42:10 Ok 14:42:19 made a Tap Code decoder in Befunge (nearly) 14:44:25 that was quick 14:44:37 but i must fix the "K" problem 14:44:39 now 14:45:55 &6%&6%5*88*1+++, 14:45:57 the code for now 14:46:05 It works nearly 14:46:08 now to fix the K 14:46:29 Now i must learn how to use IFs 14:47:08 88*1+ -> "A" (or 'A for Funge-98) 14:47:14 yes 14:47:36 it is in the 0-4 array 14:47:50 change &6%&6% to &5%&5% 14:49:09 Compare this to... 14:49:09 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:49:24 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:49:28 Back 14:49:30 well 14:49:32 compare my befunge code with... 14:49:34 ,>++++++++[<------>-],>++++++++[<------>-]<[>+++++<-]<[->>+<<]>>[->+>+<<]>>[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[+++++++++++>+>]]]]]]]]]]]<[-<[-]<[->+<]>>]++++++++[<++++++++>-]<+. 14:49:37 ...this. 14:49:46 And i'm using befunge-93! 14:49:58 asiekierka: Yes. :P 14:50:04 Hmm. 14:50:10 Offtopic, what would you people use to register a .se domain? 14:50:25 All the registrars I've found either are ridiculously expensive or don't let you change the nameservers 14:50:29 (for a friend) 14:50:29 ihatewindows98.se 14:50:32 haha 14:50:35 or 14:50:38 ilikewindows98.se 14:50:56 or 14:51:02 myfriendisslimniceandwi.se 14:52:21 Or 14:52:26 iwanttobewi.se 14:52:27 or 14:52:35 tusho_is_slim_and_wi.se 14:52:37 or 14:52:40 esolangs_are_wi.se 14:52:45 or... i'm out of ideas 14:54:27 I'm going to move to befunge-98 14:54:31 Or should i stay at -93? 14:54:57 hello? 14:55:35 asiekierka: a registrar 14:55:36 not a domain 14:57:02 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:01:26 untested finished tap code decoder for befunge-93: 15:01:27 &5%&5%5*88*1+++:52*`v 15:01:27 v+1_v 15:01:27 @, < 15:01:27 @ 15:01:47 And this one 15:01:49 actually works! 15:02:17 minimised it to 3 lines 15:02:18 Compare that 15:02:21 with 15:02:21 my BF code 15:02:24 Please. 15:02:33 the code is tested and works 15:02:47 lets see... *reads b93 code* 15:03:06 asiekierka, what is it trying to do 15:03:22 Wait 15:03:24 it's broken! 15:03:26 you take two numbers, modulo 5 15:03:30 actually 15:03:37 then multiply the last with 5 15:03:48 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_Code 15:03:52 decode tap codes. 15:04:10 You input the number of taps, and get the letter 15:04:11 then 8*8 (64), then add 1 to it, then add 65 to the the second number you read (times 5) 15:04:15 But it seems that thing is broken 15:04:20 It's "true" no matter what 15:04:25 then add the first number to that 15:05:49 asiekierka, it checks if the final number is smaller than 5*2? 15:06:01 larger 15:06:06 if it is, should add one 15:06:14 yeah... hm 15:06:16 if it isn't, should leave it alone 15:06:30 asiekierka, well the final number would be larger than 10 15:06:35 as far as I can work out 15:06:38 Not necessairly 15:06:43 0*0=0 15:06:49 no wait 15:06:50 it's 15:06:55 0*(0*5) 15:06:56 8*8 + 1 = 65 15:07:00 Yes 15:07:02 oh wait 15:07:04 which you then *add* to maybe 0 15:07:05 didn't spot that bit 15:07:23 thanks for finding that bit 15:07:28 asiekierka, I got no clue what it is 15:07:32 It's broken 15:07:34 but I can see it will always be larger yes 15:07:36 a broken tap code decoder 15:07:53 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_Code 15:07:55 it decodes that 15:08:26 hey AnMaster 15:08:29 you're swedish 15:08:35 what registrar would you use to register an .se domain 15:08:41 Okay 15:08:42 v >1+>88*1++,@ 15:08:43 >&5%&5%5*+:52*`| 15:08:43 > ^ 15:08:44 this should work 15:09:07 also 15:09:21 can i do like 15:09:32 not > ^, but >xx^ or something, to indicate code flow? 15:09:49 eh 15:09:53 yes but why 15:09:59 asiekierka, not in funge 93 15:10:04 Oh 15:10:11 in 98 there are such chars you could use 15:10:24 Well, i'm going to use funge-93 because tusho said i should use it since 98 is harder 15:10:25 AnMaster: ? 15:10:25 tusho, I never looked for registrar 15:10:28 AnMaster: ok 15:10:30 tusho, I use *.org mostly 15:10:35 AnMaster: still ... all of them seem to suck 15:10:40 AnMaster: can't change nameserver 15:10:43 or hideously expensive 15:10:44 asiekierka, 98 is harder to *implement* 15:10:48 Oh. 15:10:51 i didn't say that asiekierka 15:10:53 i said it's simple 15:10:54 r 15:10:59 uh, should i stay at befunge-93 or migrate to befunge-98?> 15:11:00 stay with -93 for now 15:11:00 it's a _lot_ simpler 15:11:00 asiekierka, and it is the opposite of a tarpit if you see what I mean 15:11:07 98 is positively bloated :P 15:11:23 Also 15:11:24 asiekierka, 93 is easier to learn too, less commands 15:11:28 Yeah 15:11:29 but 15:11:40 does Befunge-93 have commands 98 doesn't? 15:11:41 asiekierka, in funge98 every printable char have some meaning 15:11:47 and 98 is a superset of 93 15:11:55 oh 15:12:03 So i should first master funge93 15:12:14 Then get around to 98 15:12:19 asiekierka, well, there are some semantic differences with spaces in strings between 93 and 98 15:12:43 ie, 98 does it like html, multiple spaces are ignored 15:12:54 but apart from that it is a true superset 15:13:05 well, i replaced 88*1+ with "A" for a little space optimization 15:13:08 eh 15:13:09 a 15:13:10 not A 15:13:15 A is different from a in 98 15:13:19 oh 15:13:21 but im using -93 15:13:23 as i told 15:13:24 a = 10 15:13:32 oh you mean as a string 15:13:34 right 15:13:34 yes 15:13:35 sure 15:13:38 also, i use -93 anyway 15:13:46 k 15:21:30 Any ideas on what program to do? 15:22:06 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 15:23:28 -!- dogface_ has joined. 15:24:30 Oh, i see. 15:24:39 Befunge also has every program possible made, right 15:24:41 RIGHT 15:24:52 no 15:24:53 :P 15:25:02 asiekierka: we're not like ... program idea generations 15:25:11 generators 15:25:20 Oh 15:25:27 But, anything you want to do but are too lazy maybe 15:26:29 asiekierka: how about a web server 15:26:34 you'll need -98 to do that 15:26:42 for the networking & filesystem fingerprints(modules) 15:28:25 How about i'll do an interpreter for something in -93 15:28:27 For practice 15:28:31 sure 15:28:32 THEN i'll get around to -9 15:28:34 probably a good idea 15:28:34 -98 15:28:40 asiekierka: what about an underload interp 15:28:42 that's quite complicated 15:28:44 Since an interpreter is the hardest thing in an esolang 50% of the time 15:28:45 but still interesting 15:28:49 Nothing much complicated 15:28:56 I'd like to do a Piet interpreter xD 15:28:57 it's not too complicated 15:28:59 a little tricky, though 15:29:12 with a builtin module to read BMP data 15:29:16 But 80x25 is a problem 15:29:23 I'd so like Befunge-93 without the limit 15:29:40 in moments like that 15:29:42 asiekierka: yes, -98 has no limit 15:29:44 however 15:29:49 80x25 is an advantage in some ways 15:29:54 it forces you to think about using the most of the space 15:29:57 Yeah, it motivates you to optimize 15:33:31 Anything for my first time making an esolang interpreter in an esolang? 15:33:32 something easyt 15:33:34 easy* 15:33:38 but for the love of God NOT BF 15:33:55 asiekierka: well, I guess underload would be a bit too hard 15:33:56 BCT? 15:34:00 http://esolangs.org/wiki/BCT 15:34:03 very very simple 15:34:05 and TC 15:34:19 (though your impl won't be TC - befunge-93 isn't TC) 15:34:25 (close enough for a lot of things though) 15:35:33 0 is removing the bit that's the farthest one left? 15:35:40 as in, the first on the "stack" 15:36:09 yes asiekierka 15:36:31 and 11 = if leftmost data is 1: append 1 to end of data 15:36:35 and 10 = if leftmost data is 1: append 0 to end of data 15:36:40 1 if the leftmost data-bit is 0, skips the next command? 15:36:43 but 15:36:45 note that 15:36:46 110 15:36:47 executes as 15:36:53 11, 10, 0 15:37:01 asiekierka: no 15:37:06 the next command is never skipped 15:37:07 oh 15:37:16 so 1 if the leftmost bit is 0 just nops? 15:37:23 yes 15:37:27 asiekierka: but note the bit below it 15:37:31 you don't just execute it and finish 15:37:33 you have to "cycle" it 15:37:44 but that's it 15:37:46 it's pretty trivial 15:37:51 cycle? 15:37:51 0 <-- 10 15:37:51 1 <-- 11 15:37:51 ; <-- 0 15:37:53 you mean that 15:38:03 oh wait 15:38:03 no 15:38:05 it's not that 15:38:16 yeah read the paragraph below :P 15:38:50 I wonder what's "cycling" 15:38:52 tusho, I wonder, irc bot in erlang, I assume it has already been done though 15:39:04 anyway not today I think, I think I got a cold 15:39:05 AnMaster: obviously :P 15:39:09 asiekierka: it describes it on the page 15:39:12 read the BCT page all the way through 15:39:12 :P 15:39:16 * AnMaster will probably go to bed soon due to this cold 15:39:17 it's short 15:39:20 AnMaster: aw 15:40:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:41:57 by the way 15:42:11 AnMaster: what do you think about ESO using befunge.org for its fingerprint-URI-service? 15:42:41 tusho, sure, ok for me 15:42:43 http://befunge.org/fp/tusho/tardis 15:42:47 or whatever :P 15:43:06 you know I hate time travel :P 15:43:08 :D 15:43:10 AnMaster: hmm 15:43:18 AnMaster: for legacy ones 15:43:29 http://befunge.org/fp/-legacy/TRDS 15:43:30 or something 15:43:30 ? 15:43:35 then it's still a valid URI 15:43:36 well legacy ones can still be loaded with the old names in funge-108 15:43:42 as opposed to funge-fingerprint-legacy:// 15:43:45 AnMaster: why? 15:43:56 it should be possible to run most existing programs under funge-108 without modifications 15:43:58 Still don't quite get it. I think it's just that 10/11 are paired. 15:44:01 some small needed for k and such 15:44:16 10 appends 0 to the end if the leftmost bit is 1 15:44:16 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:44:18 AnMaster: i don't think you should bother with backwards-compatibility for funge-108 really 15:44:19 :P 15:44:25 tusho, well hm.... 15:44:34 AnMaster: just have a --98 switch or whatever 15:44:46 probably, make --98 the default 15:44:46 tusho, sure cfunge will have that. but still... 15:44:53 and have --108 for the 3 108 programs :P 15:45:02 -!- asiekierka has joined. 15:45:05 AnMaster: it'd remove a lot of clutter from the spec 15:45:06 cfunge already got a -s {93,98,108} 15:45:13 I think i'll just check an interpreter source code 15:45:17 C source code 15:45:19 and as you said it doesn't have full compatibility atm 15:45:21 due to 'k' etc 15:45:28 tusho, k etc? 15:45:38 [15:44:03] some small needed for k and such 15:45:45 you're already backwards-incompatible, might as well take the oppertunity 15:45:51 hm 15:46:07 tusho, think of the existing codebase ;P 15:46:25 AnMaster: gasp, you might have to put a few if (FungeVersion == 98)s in! :P 15:46:29 hehehe 15:46:33 tusho, I already got that ;P 15:46:37 for 93 15:47:04 where currently I only handle spaces differently, because the space in string is the only thing I seen causing issues 15:47:11 so not a full 93 mode 15:47:23 but rather a semi-compatibility mode 15:47:30 I think i'll implement Cyclic Tag instead 15:47:30 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire..."). 15:47:40 asiekierka: bitwise is simpler than cyclic tag 15:47:43 since it's, uh, only bits 15:47:44 :P 15:47:54 in befunge it's not a difference 15:47:58 tusho, depend on what language you implement it in 15:48:06 bitwise operations in befunge wouldn't be fun 15:48:16 i wouldn't use bitwise 15:48:19 asiekierka, if you want to compare some number you want 98 btw 15:48:20 yeah okay 15:48:22 I would use 0 and 1 in digits anyway 15:48:23 much easier 15:48:23 w 15:48:32 say: 15:48:46 I actually prefer -#v_ sometimes 15:48:50 you know 15:48:51 since you only need two lines 15:48:55 How to store the datastring in Befunge-93 15:48:56 i wonder 15:48:58 funge.org would be more fun than befunge.org 15:48:59 c.funge.org 15:49:03 rc.funge.org 15:49:27 since g/p operations take away space 15:49:29 and the stack 15:49:50 asiekierka: the stack is probably the best idea 15:49:54 Yeah, i'd need to put a value at the very bottom 15:49:56 How!? 15:50:04 but if you hyper-optimized your code you could leave the rest of the fungespace for the code/datastring 15:50:15 as the leftmost will be the top (okay) and rightmost will be the bottom 15:50:19 Now how to add numbers to the bottom 15:50:27 -!- MikeRiley has joined. 15:50:43 asiekierka: to the bottom of the stack? 15:50:46 Yes 15:50:54 you'll need a fingerprint for that 15:50:58 MODE or FRTH 15:51:00 in befunge-93 15:51:04 impossible 15:51:19 v > "2 is greater than 1">:#,_@ 15:51:20 > 1 2 w "2 and 1 are equal Equal">:#,_@ 15:51:20 > "2 is less than 1">:#,_@ 15:51:22 well, of course you can store the stack in funge-space 15:51:25 of course that won't print it correctly 15:51:28 asiekierka, ^ 15:51:32 but very useful w. 15:51:48 asiekierka: i.e. 'p' all values on the stack now somewhere, then push your new value, then 'g' them back 15:51:55 I wanted to do it 15:52:02 you might have to keep track of the stack size though 15:52:10 right 15:52:31 if it'll exceed 80 bytes, i'm going to remove the rightmost databit 15:52:35 or 15:52:36 not put it 15:52:37 i funge.org would be more fun than befunge.org 15:52:39 aye 15:52:43 trefunge 15:52:44 unefunge 15:52:45 too 15:52:49 be.funge.org :P 15:52:54 I could keep track by g/p 15:52:55 and the interpreter name puns 15:53:09 tusho, then what about CC.funge.org.I? ;P 15:53:14 err 15:53:17 tusho, then what about CC.be.funge.org.I? ;P 15:53:18 even 15:53:38 or FBBI 15:53:39 AnMaster: ccbe.funge.org/i 15:53:46 fbbe.funge.org/i 15:54:00 why .org 15:54:09 Deewiant, well his domain name... 15:54:11 Deewiant: what would you suggest? 15:54:17 .com? it's not commercial 15:54:20 tusho, buy a tld from ICANN? 15:54:23 .funge 15:54:24 XD 15:54:26 AnMaster: heh 15:54:28 exactly :-) 15:54:35 how much would that cost? 15:54:39 AnMaster: $500K 15:54:41 I believe 15:54:42 ouch 15:54:45 not an option then 15:54:48 o rly 15:54:49 :p 15:54:54 well not for me 15:55:08 i am actually a billionare 15:55:14 that 12 year old thing was just a disguise 15:55:17 you guys want .funge? 15:55:17 but of course we don't need to use http and hence can drop the .org altogether 15:55:20 unless we want to 15:55:26 Deewiant: gopher! 15:55:29 no wait 15:55:33 hmm 15:55:41 Deewiant: mailto 15:55:46 mailto:c@funge.org 15:55:51 eww 15:55:56 mailing to it will be replied to with information about cfunge 15:55:57 :-P 15:56:00 do we have to use a standardized one? 15:56:06 Ok, i have processing lines ready for ;, 1 and 0 15:56:10 Deewiant: yes 15:56:10 if so, just urn: 15:56:11 Deewiant, of course, we need URIs 15:56:12 otherwise it's not a valid uri 15:56:19 asiekierka: uh 15:56:21 ; isn't in bct 15:56:28 but i'm writing a CT interpreter 15:56:31 oh 15:56:31 ok 15:56:37 Also 15:57:02 is g/p's x and y positions calculated from 0-79/0-24 or 1-80/1-25 15:57:02 asiekierka, you need funge-98 then 15:57:09 Why 15:57:11 because funge-93 is not turing complete 15:57:21 it is restricted to 25x80 15:57:24 tusho, AnMaster: where in the RFC does it say that they need to be officially registered 15:57:26 he doesn't need tc AnMaster 15:57:31 I can't find it in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986 15:57:35 tusho, well CT would need it right? 15:57:36 Deewiant: shrug - I know it's true though 15:57:36 No language ever on the universe is TC 15:57:40 we don't have unbounded storage 15:57:48 asiekierka: langs are tc 15:57:49 impls are not 15:57:50 tusho: wikipedia says only "should" 15:57:55 AnMaster: he can implement CT without infinite memory 15:57:59 Deewiant: it's somewhere in there 15:58:06 Individual schemes are not specified by this document. The process 15:58:07 for registration of new URI schemes is defined separately by [BCP35]. 15:58:07 The scheme registry maintains the mapping between scheme names and 15:58:07 their specifications. 15:58:11 there are lots of stuff like it 15:58:43 tusho: but anyway, urn: works 15:58:55 Deewiant: yes but ESO are going to give away http uris 15:58:59 because it's nicer to be able to just load it and get info 15:59:03 instead of googling it or whatever 15:59:25 tusho, you could document other ones not hosted by you in some standard format as well 15:59:37 AnMaster: possibly 15:59:45 Also, with g/p, do you put x, then y, or the other way around? 15:59:45 i'd prefer to keep it away from centralizationt hough 15:59:47 *though 15:59:51 at least for the *old* established ones 16:00:01 tusho, I mean the already existing common ones, 16:00:02 AnMaster: that'll be under -legacy 16:00:07 or at least provide info where to find themn 16:00:09 them* 16:00:09 http://befunge.org/fp/-legacy/TRDS 16:00:21 tusho, and I will still allow loading programs with old style name 16:00:32 AnMaster: i've argued for why you shouldn't 16:00:33 shrug 16:00:52 URI scheme names, as defined by in Section 3.1, form a 16:00:53 registered namespace that is managed by IANA according to the 16:00:53 procedures defined in [BCP35]. No IANA actions are required by this 16:00:53 document. 16:01:20 tusho, changing existing applications to new scheme may be hard 16:01:29 AnMaster: err no 16:01:35 put http://befunge.org/fp/-legacy/ in front of it 16:01:36 or whatever 16:01:46 tusho, there may be lack of space in funge programs 16:01:48 or an appropriate urn:, if that's the legacy route taken 16:01:49 just look at mycology 16:01:55 AnMaster: um, fungespace is infinite 16:02:03 anyway 16:02:07 tusho, but you need to readjust a lot of existing code sometimes 16:02:18 AnMaster: what conceivable new features in funge-108 would justify porting a program over? 16:02:20 it's just a clarification 16:02:21 for new programs 16:02:25 not anything worth upgrading to 16:02:26 at least if you wrote the original program idiomatically 16:02:27 :P 16:02:35 therefore, backwards-compatibility is a non-issue 16:02:57 tusho, what if you want to extend it to use some new fingerprint, I mean in another module of the program ;P 16:03:12 AnMaster: yeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssss.... 16:03:21 the problem is you use your jokes to actually justify changing the standard 16:03:23 :| 16:03:26 tusho, of course this is not very probable :P 16:03:30 exactly 16:03:55 tusho, but we need to maintain compatibility with existing enterprise level applications! 16:03:59 ;P 16:04:20 AnMaster: give me a non-joking justification 16:04:27 CTiBE is a hard job 16:04:33 if you can't, then surely you must face what I said and remove it 16:04:42 tusho, making it possible to run existing code 16:04:51 also 16:04:56 AnMaster: just run it as --98 16:05:09 if you think there are going to be any funge-108 interps you are pretty deluded 16:05:11 the issue of selecting URIs for existing ones 16:05:14 funge-108 only that is 16:05:14 or new 98 ones 16:05:22 AnMaster: use an urn 16:05:28 urn: 16:05:34 um yes, they are also a specific name space 16:06:23 http://www.iana.org/assignments/urn-namespaces/ 16:06:26 are the valid URN ones 16:06:44 there is a generic one though 16:06:48 that you can arbitarily use 16:06:51 forgot which 16:08:06 bbiab 16:08:58 >v 16:08:59 >62*54*3+g:"O"|>55*pv>program continues here 16:08:59 ^ < < < < < < < < < < 16:08:59 > > > > ^ 16:09:06 my stack copy thing 16:09:20 wait 16:09:21 it's broken 16:09:49 -!- Slereah has joined. 16:09:50 >v 16:09:51 >62*54*3+g:"O"|>55*pv>code here 16:09:51 ^< < < < < < < < < << 16:09:51 > > > >^ 16:09:52 here we go 16:09:54 hi Slereah_ 16:10:02 How's that 16:10:09 my stack copying code 16:10:35 O is char 79 16:10:43 and it gives me some optimization in this thing 16:10:46 asiekierka: crazy but cool :D 16:10:54 xD 16:10:59 also, optimized i think 16:11:06 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:12:29 asiekierka, where is entry point in that code 16:12:37 it's just a part of my code 16:12:43 ^< < < < < < < < < << 16:12:43 > > > >^ 16:12:47 that looks unbalanced 16:12:57 It's meant to look like it 16:13:01 ah ok 16:13:09 I wonder if i didn't swap something up 16:13:19 yes i did 16:13:21 up with down 16:13:47 asiekierka, all the un-needed arrows are confusing 16:13:55 They help me see what is where 16:13:57 a bit 16:13:59 but oh well 16:14:10 well for me they signal "something will need to turn here" 16:14:19 so I look for stuff entering from other directions 16:14:20 > v 16:14:20 >62*54*3+g:"O"|>55*pv>code here 16:14:20 ^ < 16:14:20 >^ 16:14:21 what about THIS 16:14:25 ah yes :) 16:14:37 But the code for stack cleaning looks so obfuscated 16:14:41 I hardly understand it 16:14:51 you could make it more compact I think 16:14:56 it generates the value 12 (X), 20+3=23 (Y) 16:15:06 Then it takes the value from it (loopty loop position 16:15:08 ) 16:15:16 duplicates it for IF purposes 16:15:22 Compares it with "O" (79) 16:15:34 If it's 79 already, it's over! 16:15:35 " :rebmun a retnE" >:#,_v 16:15:35 v_v#!`g00:+1 .:< >a,@ ^ 16:15:37 :) 16:15:39 one of mine 16:15:49 the :) was a smiley, not funge code btw 16:15:54 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 16:16:00 If it's not, it goes to enter another number, and repeats the code 16:16:02 I think it may be funge-98 only 16:16:03 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:16:08 It's all of my code. 16:16:10 actually, not sure 16:16:12 That's what it does 16:16:17 brb 16:16:17 Not quite a lot, right? 16:16:27 AnMaster: can you believe asiekierka only decided to learn befunge two hours ago? 16:17:39 I think i know how to cut it to 3 lines 16:17:58 no wait 16:18:00 not that easy 16:18:02 after all 16:18:18 oh well 16:18:37 asiekierka: how much of the full interp have you written? 16:18:43 wait 16:18:44 all of it?! 16:18:47 The stack copying code is 10-20% 16:18:49 nope 16:18:51 ah 16:18:53 Only the stack copying code 16:18:57 It's the most important part 16:19:02 Then goes a stack re-copying part 16:19:07 Then the actual function implementation 16:19:09 And done. :) 16:19:30 I wasted 12/22 lines so far 16:19:35 as 3 are reserved for stack/etc data 16:19:40 I could minimize it to 2 16:19:54 Also 16:19:54 asiekierka: remember, you can fit code in vertically 16:19:58 yeah 16:19:59 i know 16:20:00 and then use horizontal if 16:20:05 is there a way to check whether the stack is empty? 16:20:08 asiekierka: you can even make code execute in different directions 16:20:12 same code 16:20:17 or cross instructions together 16:20:18 as in 16:20:18 so that it goes a different way depending on which way it hits 16:20:19 etc 16:20:24 > g > 16:20:26 asiekierka: no way to check for an empty stack 16:20:26 and 16:20:27 but yes 16:20:28 v 16:20:29 g 16:20:29 v 16:20:34 g is in the same spot 16:20:46 So, if i output from the stack when it's empty 16:20:48 i get a null value? 16:21:02 asiekierka: undefined, I guess 16:21:04 maybe an error 16:21:15 So my cyclic tag interpreter may crash 16:21:25 perhaps 16:21:41 i may make an interp for a different lang maybe 16:21:49 asiekierka: nah 16:21:53 just find a way around your problem 16:21:53 * asiekierka is all deadfish 16:21:53 :P 16:21:59 Tusho: but there's none! 16:22:11 asiekierka: o rly? 16:22:15 put false on the bottom of the stack 16:22:16 ya rly 16:22:20 oh 16:22:21 increase each other element on the stack by 1 16:22:23 then, stack empty = if 16:22:34 i could put a "EOS sign" at the bottom of the stack 16:22:37 (This means that the maximum integer that you can put on the stack is 1 less, but who cares) 16:22:40 asiekierka: yes, and that's the best way to do it 16:22:41 EOS - End Of Stack (xD) 16:23:16 asiekierka: empty stack is defined to pop 0 16:23:28 ah, there we go then 16:23:31 in funge-93? 16:23:40 yes, there as well 16:23:47 but i'll use an E 16:23:49 safety is important 16:23:50 :) 16:23:53 asiekierka: errr 16:23:56 but E could appear on the stack 16:23:59 couldn't it? 16:24:07 nope 16:24:08 asiekierka: best way: use a 0, then increase every other one by one 16:24:09 oh 16:24:10 okay then 16:24:12 only 0 and 1 can 16:24:15 ah ok 16:24:16 in CT, right 16:24:17 then just use an E 16:24:18 or whatever 16:26:10 v 16:26:12 " >v >$ v 16:26:12 E >62*54*3+g:"O"|>:"E"|>55*pv> 16:26:12 " ^ > ^ 16:26:12 >~:"0" | >^ 16:26:12 v 16:26:15 a full excerpt from my code 16:26:20 this is the "0" current implementation 16:26:26 I.E. stack cleaning and initalization 16:26:32 without the real "0" interpretation 16:26:32 asiekierka: really cool 16:26:38 how do you pick up languages so fast? 16:26:42 I'm a kid. 16:26:45 Kids learn quickly. 16:26:47 :P 16:26:48 so am i, i'm 12 :p 16:26:51 but i could not write that with only 2 hours of befunge knowledge 16:27:01 3 hours. 16:27:04 i think 3. 16:27:07 nor 3 hours :P 16:27:10 Also, i can write quickly 16:27:20 i can type pretty darn quickly too 16:27:24 And i just look at the docs frequently 16:27:25 dunno how that ties in with learning befunge though 16:27:26 :P 16:27:31 when i dont know what to do 16:27:34 i look at the docs 16:27:35 if still no idea 16:27:37 true 16:27:37 I think befunge is really simple... 16:27:38 i ask here :D 16:27:45 EAP 16:27:47 Deewiant: well, i couldn't write that :p 16:27:47 (Easy As Pie) 16:28:11 So, as you see, the stack clean© code is done. 16:28:15 tusho: well why not, what's so complicated about it :-P 16:28:17 Now i must copy it to all 3 functions 16:28:27 Deewiant: just the organization i guess 16:28:30 i would continually have to shift it about 16:28:32 and probably give up 16:28:56 so the problem isn't befunge knowledge, it's that you're an untidy person with little patience ;-) 16:29:25 Deewiant: :p 16:29:36 got me down to a T there 16:29:42 I have a little too much patience 16:29:43 ya know? :D 16:29:58 asiekierka: i find it hard to believe -that- :P 16:30:15 how else could i write that piece of code 16:30:20 so fastly 16:30:20 w/o a break 16:30:41 Ok 16:30:45 asiekierka: you're hyperactive 16:30:45 so stack cleaning is done 16:30:45 :P 16:30:51 Maybe 16:30:53 that's how :D 16:31:02 I just like doing stuff 16:32:18 Wahh, every time people speak about Befunge, it reminds me of the Befunge turing machine interpreter thing I wrote, syntax-highlighted with horrible HTML/CSS, and then subsequently lost. 16:32:18 Done the function for ";" 16:32:29 now 0, 1 and the stack readding code 16:32:32 fizzie: Aww. 16:32:44 fizzie: It can't have been TC though unless it was -98 16:32:45 fizzie: rewrite it from memory 16:32:57 I forgot about something 16:32:59 checking conditions 16:33:17 tusho; The tape length was limited to the width of the funge-space, yes. 16:33:18 tusho: what if it uses , and & to store/retrieve from the user's mind 16:33:25 Hopefully i don't use any ascii char after "N" 16:33:53 Ok, fixed 16:34:38 So now goes implementing 0, 1 and the stack removal stuff. Oh man, how i want to take a break from this 16:34:43 but can't really, it's so awesome 16:35:02 heh 16:35:11 asiekierka: but ... befunge has too many commands! 16:35:13 befunge is like that, you can't stop 16:35:14 :P 16:35:27 tusho: but... befunge's commands are just good enough 16:35:37 i was just copying what you said earlier asiekierka 16:35:37 :P 16:35:51 AnMaster: can you believe asiekierka only decided to learn befunge two hours ago? 16:35:52 nop 16:36:23 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:36:32 -!- Iskr has joined. 16:36:59 -!- Iskr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:37:21 -!- Iskr has joined. 16:37:23 asiekierka: no way to check for an empty stack <-- in funge-98 you could use y 16:37:43 FUNGE-98 DAMMIT 16:37:43 as for empty funge stack you always get 0 16:37:44 he is using -93 16:37:46 I USE FUNGE-93 16:37:54 Please remember that. 16:37:55 in 93 too 16:37:55 OH PLEASE 16:38:01 asiekierka: chill 16:38:03 i'm using an "E" already 16:38:08 to check for "EOS" 16:38:14 oh wait 16:38:19 forgot conditions on the "E" too :( 16:38:35 That'll require so much remapping 16:38:40 now, as i completed 50% of "1" 16:39:08 asiekierka, this would probably be easier in Funge-98 16:39:24 but i'm making it in funge-93 to practice it 16:39:27 before migrating to funge-98 16:39:30 anyway using y is not trivial ;P 16:39:39 y is "system information" 16:39:47 problem is, getting the right info out of it 16:40:18 Hopefully, just fixed every order stuff 16:40:21 Now to implement 16:41:03 asiekierka, there is a lisp->befunge-98 compiler 16:41:09 not very good an the code is slow 16:41:28 or was it scheme->befunge-98? 16:41:30 one of those 16:41:35 and only handled a subset 16:41:49 http://cubonegro.orgfree.com/sponge/sponge.html 16:42:00 ah yes 16:42:03 Ok, implemented 1 16:42:09 -!- tusho has quit. 16:42:12 * sebbu a un hérisson dans son jardin | have a hedgedog in the garden 16:42:23 -!- tusho has joined. 16:43:17 Woo 16:43:20 0 is implemented too! 16:43:34 But how tired i am... I must take a break. For 17 minutes. 16:43:40 Then i'll work on stack readding 16:43:47 17? 16:43:48 pretty precise 16:43:57 since it'll be 6 PM at that time here 16:44:01 And finally fnish the code then. 16:44:22 I.E. add stack reputting. Then just get over with it. 16:44:23 oh wait 16:44:29 i don't have output in my interpreter 16:44:30 :(((( 16:44:33 Oh man. 16:44:41 and i dont have a debugger 16:44:50 I will get it later 16:44:52 now, a break. 16:44:59 6 minutes away, then going to talk 16:45:38 asiekierka, I don't think you can fit a debugger into it as well 16:45:57 AnMaster: he wants a befunge debugger 16:46:05 -!- LinuS has joined. 16:46:08 since the stack has the memory 16:46:09 hi there 16:46:18 and the code is the input 16:46:19 hi 16:46:23 for befunge-93, RC/Funge-98 has a debugger 16:46:37 if it's befunge-98 compatible (probably is), CCBI's debugger is better ;-) 16:46:55 wait 16:46:55 do you have any news about IRC-related eso languages a part from the one found on 99bottles of beer which seem to be called IRC? 16:46:58 what? 16:47:16 i've done one, then i realized there might be more :( 16:47:26 what about IRP? 16:48:13 i think he means the esolang called "IRC" 16:48:22 oh i see, there is also IRP 16:48:43 there is one called IRC? 16:48:59 yes 16:49:06 LinuS, IRP can be *done* over IRC (as in IRC chat) 16:49:12 http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/IRC 16:49:17 AnMaster: i see 16:49:20 well mine is kind of different 16:49:34 it is a turing complete one that sends commands to an irc server aswell 16:49:49 it uses channels as functions and +b as variables 16:49:54 haha 16:49:56 and everything is sent to the server 16:49:59 * AnMaster reads up on it 16:50:14 i've got an example but it is in italian, you should still understands commands anyway, wait a moment 16:50:41 http://rafb.net/p/Hcfjqb90.html 16:50:52 LinuS: that's cool 16:51:06 is it? i was scared someone else already did this 16:51:36 LinuS: it's funny, because that would be useful for both crazy ESO things and making silly little IRC bots 16:51:39 (if you can read from the server too) 16:52:01 well, at the moment it just send commands 16:52:14 the fact is i tried to store everything on IRC 16:52:32 so you'd need to use +b in a channel to pass info to another process 16:52:53 but channels have +lk flags (used for passing parameters to functions) so that might be a problem 16:53:06 -!- Mony has joined. 16:53:15 LinuS, write an interpreter for IRC maybe? 16:53:30 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:53:41 ok i'm back 16:53:53 7 minutes and im back to work 16:54:07 asiekierka, hm? 16:54:22 working on the stack recopying module of my Cyclic Tag interpreter for Befunge 16:54:26 ah yes 16:54:28 AnMaster: the problem is you can't see every command, i was thinking about writing an interpreter that both: executes the command (the only main thing he does is reading variables and calling functions, and the + - / * operations) and sends it to the irc server 16:55:01 oh well 16:55:05 in the link you can see it calculating a power 16:55:06 gonna start doing it slowly 16:55:08 LinuS, you would to use a custom irc server to handle multiple clients, no rate limits and so on 16:55:24 and to give +o to set clients 16:55:36 well i can just delay the messagges and change nick/channel for every new program 16:55:41 -!- Mony has joined. 16:55:44 LinuS, a normal ircd limits number of client per host 16:55:45 so that you can run it in every irc server 16:55:50 well normal ircd setup 16:55:56 well, why do you need more then one? 16:55:58 and also rates for commands 16:56:10 rates for commands is solver by delaying every command 16:56:13 LinuS, one for "op, input, output, voiced" and so on 16:56:27 i'm not using that! 16:56:34 LinuS, um what? 16:56:35 i store variables in channel's +b 16:56:43 i'm not the IRC guy 16:56:45 This part of code will recopy the stack from codespace to the stack, append whatever's needed, and return to the beginning 16:56:48 errgh what? 16:56:48 http://rafb.net/p/Hcfjqb90.html 16:56:50 i've done this 16:56:51 lol 16:56:55 LinuS, number of bans are also limited 16:56:57 normally 64 16:56:58 Oh wait, i didn't check for endofcode the whole time 16:57:00 yeah well 16:57:07 it is enought 16:57:11 enough* 16:57:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:57:16 LinuS, also I can't read that language you pasted 16:57:20 hi ais523 16:57:27 fine, just read the examples 16:57:27 LinuS, French? Spanish? 16:57:33 without taking care of the * comments 16:57:34 italian :) 16:57:42 hi AnMaster 16:57:43 the second one is a power calculator 16:57:49 it calculates 2^4 16:58:04 ais523, formed any opinion of erlang yet? 16:58:06 passing the parameters via the +l and +k "spaces" 16:58:19 AnMaster: no, I've been asleep pretty much all the time I haven't been online recently 16:58:22 LinuS, hm ok, well, English comments would help (or Swedish) 16:58:29 i'll translate it asap 16:58:30 also I'm not connected to the Internet when I'm not on IRC, more or less 16:58:35 unless I'm at a cybercage 16:58:39 s/cage/cafe/ 16:58:42 although I like the typo 16:58:46 cybercage.. :D 16:58:47 ais523, hahaha 16:58:47 cybercage xD 16:58:54 that's what describes what i'm doing right now 16:58:58 lol 16:58:58 asiekierka, oh? 16:59:36 making this is like sitting in a cage 16:59:45 this cyclic tag interpreter 16:59:50 It's not a cybercage 16:59:53 It's a fungecage 16:59:54 asiekierka, 98 would give more freedom, I mean allow you to use a lot more space 17:00:05 and also make some stuff simpler 17:00:06 asiekierka: writing a cyclic tag interp in Befunge-93? 17:00:12 ais523, yes he is 17:00:15 I'm not sure it's possible in general, cyclic tag's TC and Befunge-93 isn't 17:00:22 so you're going to run out of fungespace eventually 17:00:30 ais523, well no implementation is TC 17:00:38 ais523 17:00:40 you forgot to greet me 17:00:54 AnMaster: I consider an implementation to be TC if the only reason it isn't TC is the standard library erroring 17:01:02 tusho: yes, I want to move away from a greeting race 17:01:07 besides AnMaster won this time 17:01:08 ais523: how dare you 17:01:18 ais523, I didn't race 17:01:22 I just wanted to say hi 17:01:27 AnMaster: no, that's what makes it better 17:01:37 ais523, also what do you mean "standard library erroring" 17:01:38 saying hi for the sake of saying hi is so much better than saying hi for racing 17:01:41 AnMaster: malloc failing 17:01:46 or similar 17:01:54 the only reason no funge-98 is TC is that you run out of funge space at some point 17:01:59 say 32-bit, 64-bit or whatever 17:02:04 ais523: it's also a useful indication that #esoteric is gonna get a lot more active 17:02:06 AnMaster: wrong, you can use the stack stack 17:02:07 as it always does when you join 17:02:16 ais523, well that will also run out 17:02:16 to create infinite storage 17:02:19 aaaahhh! 17:02:27 I forgot i'm using the stack for the stack reader 17:02:34 So nope, all hour of my work was wasted. 17:02:34 ais523, because you need to be able to put stack size in y 17:02:46 AnMaster: ugh, Funge-98 hits the sizeof problem 17:02:59 ais523, aye, you need to be able to store the size 17:03:02 http://rafb.net/p/loi2iT93.html 17:03:03 :( 17:03:05 it's all broken 17:03:11 :( 17:03:21 asiekierka, then fix it :) 17:03:22 If anyone wants to take it, feel free too 17:03:24 to* 17:03:27 asiekierka: i'm sure you can fix it 17:03:28 But it'll take at least two hours 17:03:28 don't give up 17:03:32 C is only TC due to file I/O, the existence of sizeof prevents anything else being TC because sizeof(void*) has to be finite 17:03:52 ais523, however I think cfunge will allow larger size than funge cell if it uses 32-bit cells on a 64-bit host 17:03:54 no wait 17:03:56 not sure what the result would be 17:03:57 it IS okay, actually 17:04:02 I don't have enough ram to test it 17:04:09 forgot commands remove the stack values 17:04:09 T_T 17:04:46 ais523, hm... sizeof is useful still 17:05:08 ais523, anyway you could have a bignum funge 17:05:25 nothing really forbids in in 98 17:05:32 well actually there is one small issue 17:05:37 but that is fixed in 108 17:05:45 AnMaster: yes, that's good, unfortunately sizeof has to be finite in C and you have to be able to do bitwise arithmetic so that solution doesn't work there 17:05:48 (number of bytes per cell, how do you say "bignum") 17:05:56 (funge-108 says you should use -1 for that) 17:06:23 MikeRiley, there? 17:06:29 Woo, everything was right 17:06:30 ;yes i am 17:06:35 MikeRiley, how would LONG work on a Funge with BIGNUMs? 17:06:38 I just got to the point i didn't understand my own code, you know? 17:06:47 Who did experience it? As in, you don't understand your code 17:06:58 LONG should use double the cell size as the size to use 17:07:15 MikeRiley, well with BIGNUM you could fit any value into any cell 17:07:16 But i forgot about something 17:07:27 MikeRiley, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bignum 17:07:29 You know, i forgot to increase the cell value 17:07:44 looking 17:07:49 MikeRiley, so 1 cell will always be enough for any value 17:08:26 LONG is not the same as that... 17:08:32 MikeRiley, indeed not 17:08:40 BigNum looks like arbitary length,,,have another fingerprint for that!!! 17:08:50 MikeRiley, but what if the interpreter uses Bignums for it's cells 17:08:51 AnMaster: so a LONG with a bignum would just always push 0 for the other half of the value... 17:08:55 LONG is just integers that are double the cell size... 17:08:58 Deewiant, ah good point 17:09:10 MikeRiley, point is, cell size *could be bignum* 17:09:25 in which case LONG may have no application... 17:09:28 indeed 17:09:47 Deewiant, how would mycology handle a bignum Funge-98 interpreter? 17:09:57 AnMaster: just fine... 17:09:58 but without some way to support it,,,anybody who wrote software using LONG would not work.. 17:10:06 Deewiant, what should cell size be? ;) 17:10:08 in 108 that is solved 17:10:13 but what about cell size in 98 17:10:14 AnMaster: UNDEF 17:10:21 cell size in 98 is undefined,,, 17:10:21 Deewiant, well what would you recommend in y 17:10:27 MikeRiley, I mean for y 17:10:28 the spec says any size can be used... 17:10:29 -1 seems good to me 17:10:35 Funge-108 already defines it to -1 17:10:43 Deewiant, won't that make mycology go spare? 17:11:02 AnMaster: it might say that it has to be at least 1 to make sense 17:11:13 Deewiant, well ok 17:12:31 Oh god, i still don't understand my code anymore 17:12:36 And i think it has a large problem 17:13:13 AnMaster: looking at the code, I don't think it would say anything though 17:13:21 MAAAN, i need to rewrite half of my code 17:13:25 although that code is so hairy one can never be sure ;-) 17:13:33 asiekierka: no 17:13:34 just think about it 17:13:35 P 17:13:37 *:P 17:13:37 asiekierka: hey, I've written the Befunge-93 section of Mycology 4 times now 17:13:41 Deewiant, hm 17:13:42 at least, maybe more 17:13:52 You know, it's about that 17:13:59 i never decrease the loop value 17:14:01 Deewiant, anyway efunge only does 93 (and still input is broken as it always display prompt and so on) 17:14:06 and so it'll copy it to the same spot over 17:14:06 and over 17:14:07 and over 17:14:34 Deewiant: incidentally, Mycology isn't valid Befunge-93 because it's so large, interfunge chokes on it unless I trim it down to size by hand, and nowhere in the Befunge-93 spec does it say overlarge programs are allowed 17:14:47 ais523: but neither does it say they are disallowed ;-) 17:15:02 Deewiant: well you can't assume an interpreter disregards them, I know at least one that errors instead 17:15:19 yep, I know 17:15:32 i believe a befunge-93 interpreter should just ignore anything outside the 80x25... 17:15:34 but it's easy enough to rip out the first 80*25 17:15:48 or 24, I think I had a line left over ;-) 17:16:28 ais523: I guess I could add a note to the readme about that 17:16:38 My code is such a mess by now 17:16:47 asiekierka: no its not 17:16:49 stop being hyperactive 17:16:50 and read it :P 17:16:52 Deewiant: yes, that's what I did, I used a sed script (or possibly Perl, I can't remember) to trim it down to size 17:16:52 Yes it is. 17:16:57 asiekierka: so refactor it 17:17:00 tusho: Befunge is quite hard to modify retroactively 17:17:10 because often you haven't left enough space for whatever you want to add 17:17:14 ais523: he has space. 17:17:26 I do, but it's hard to restructure all the code. 17:17:28 http://rafb.net/p/EvOysD42.html 17:17:33 That's what it looks like now 17:17:38 I have a lot of space 17:17:42 But it just looks like a mess 17:17:44 looks fine to me 17:17:44 A compiler from Unlambda to 80x24 Befunge. 17:19:42 Hopefully i'm nearly done with fixing it, i have the snippet, now paste it in all 3 places 17:19:55 the snippet as in, the part of code to add everywhere 17:20:26 dogface_: impossible in general, Unlambda's TC and Befunge-93 isn't 17:20:45 So how is it possible i'm nearly done with a Cyclic Tag implementation 17:20:48 befunge-98 is TC 17:20:57 No implementation on the universe is turing complete anyway 17:21:01 ais523: it is possible. 17:21:04 he just has limits 17:21:15 that's why I said "in general" 17:21:20 ais523, you could fake it by connecting input to output for IO 17:21:24 in 93 17:21:29 AnMaster: yes, IIRC that's how Malbolge-T works 17:21:36 yep 17:21:57 if you output character code 59048 it backs the last char of the output into the first char of the input 17:22:02 ais523: then the compiler should either give you the program or tell you it can't be done. 17:22:04 ais523, anyway Funge-98 is turing complete then, it got file IO 17:22:05 so doing it repeated times lets you read further back in your own output 17:22:10 Or else run forever, looking for a solution. 17:22:37 AnMaster: unfortunately, not quite, as the files are limited in size and the filenames are limited in length 17:22:51 ais523, well that depends on platform 17:22:58 ais523, same as for C 17:23:17 hmm... actually, maybe the filenames aren't limited in length 17:23:23 although filesize is limited to the size of fungespace 17:23:51 filenames have to be stored on the stack, and as they're 0gnirts it might be possible to get some sort of bootstrapping up where you generated ever longer filenames using ever more files to store your temporary data 17:25:26 ais523, anyway assuming filesystem is infinite then you could at least make size of funge space (2^32 * 2^32 for example) * 2^32 bytes of filename (a lot of possible combinations) 17:25:34 so TC "for all practical purposes" 17:25:41 well, yes 17:25:44 which I'd claim any 32-bit Funge-98 already is! 17:25:48 I like to think about the general case, though... 17:25:59 ais523, anyway Funge-93 is turing complete if you use bignums 17:26:01 like efunge does 17:26:16 bignums, because that is what erlang use 17:36:44 I don't remember whether my code works 17:36:54 But i'll put it up because i'm tired of work on it 17:37:16 http://rafb.net/p/w0ZNlj53.html 17:37:18 check it out 17:39:27 and? 17:40:47 AnMaster: funge space is 18446744073709551616 bytes? 17:41:12 -!- tusho has changed nick to tusho|away. 17:41:23 most Befunge programs aren't written to use bignums and store data Minsky-machine-style though 17:41:56 ais523: how's my code thing 17:42:04 the Cyclic Tag untested interpreter 17:42:09 i don't even know if it's all ok 17:42:15 asiekierka: I'm not really in a mood to try to read it right now 17:42:21 I'm pretty tired, for one thing 17:42:28 it's a mess, right? 17:42:31 or is it not 17:42:44 I don't know, Befunge code often looks like that whether or not it's well-written 17:43:09 asiekierka, well in befunge 17:43:47 it is 2^32 * 2^32 17:43:54 logically 17:44:01 of addressible space 17:44:01 err, the number is signed 17:44:05 so that means 17:44:11 -1? 17:44:19 or not? 17:44:28 my number is unsigned 17:44:31 in funge-98 negative funge space is valid 17:44:32 well 17:44:34 2^32 == 0 on a 32 bit system 17:44:42 i use calc.exe 17:44:43 :P 17:44:43 as in -43,-13 17:44:44 also 17:44:45 or whatever 17:44:54 if we don't count negative space 17:44:57 we still get 4611686018427387904 bytes 17:45:01 err 17:45:08 it is a signed 32-bit number for each dimension 17:45:15 asiekierka: it's known that there's a bug in calc.exe, someone found it when testing for the OMGWTF competition but forgot how to reproduce it 17:45:15 or 4294967296 terabytes 17:45:18 assuming a 32-bit interpreter 17:45:24 which is annoying because now nobody knows what it is 17:45:28 asiekierka, oh I got a 64-bit funge interpreter here btw 17:46:00 So it's 4096 exabytes of addressible space if we don't count negative :O 17:46:19 asiekierka, something like that yeah 17:46:22 exbibytes, surely? 17:46:23 so 4 times that 17:46:28 for each quadrant 17:46:28 yeah 17:46:33 16384 exabytes 17:46:33 when you're up to exa vs. exbi it makes a lot of difference 17:46:34 oh wait 17:46:38 what's after exabytes 17:46:45 yottabytes? 17:46:47 (%i2) 2 ^ 32 * 2 ^ 32 ; 17:46:47 (%o2) 18446744073709551616 17:46:50 I'm not sure but that seems right 17:46:52 that is what maxima gives me 17:46:56 16 yottabytes 17:47:02 oh my god 17:47:09 or yotbibytes 17:47:10 well... 17:47:15 asiekierka, is that still 32-bit one? 17:47:28 it's the 32-bit one counting negatives 17:47:37 2^32 * 2^32 17:47:38 of course 17:47:48 (%i4) ( 2 ^ 32 * 2 ^ 32 ) * 4 ; 17:47:48 (%o4) 73786976294838206464 17:47:51 hm 17:47:54 that is number of bytes 17:48:02 can't get it to "4611686018427387904" at all 17:48:06 i got it 17:48:07 by 17:48:15 (2 ^ 31 * 2 ^ 31) 17:48:21 since i was not counting negative numbers 17:48:22 -1? 17:48:35 wait not -1 17:48:37 nope 17:48:43 as 0 is in positive quadrant 17:48:58 (%i6) ( ( 2 ^ 64 ) * ( 2 ^ 64 ) ) * 8 ; 17:48:58 (%o6) 2722258935367507707706996859454145691648 17:49:00 for a 64-bit funge 17:49:02 :D 17:49:12 also 17:49:17 what if we'd play a roleplay? 17:49:19 asiekierka, my cfunge allows it to be 64-bit at compile time 17:49:34 that is compile time of interpreter 17:49:37 a roleplay where... maybe uh... we're in a world where all esolangs control the universe. 17:49:48 asiekierka, what is the time over there? 17:49:51 24h please 17:49:55 I can't think in am/pm 17:49:56 18:49 17:49:59 I ca 17:50:01 I can 17:50:02 well 17:50:10 I should make a am/pm->24h converter in BF or Befunge 17:50:14 seems too early for being *that* silly then ;P 17:50:20 asiekierka, rather easy 17:50:30 but oh well 17:50:38 Let's just play that roleplay, shall we? 17:50:50 a roleplay where... maybe uh... we're in a world where all esolangs control the universe. You can "program" the universe in this world. 17:50:56 read number, read 2 chars (am or pm), select depending on a or p if you just output or add 12 and then output 17:51:02 asiekierka: sounds great 17:51:11 asiekierka, I'd opt out 17:51:22 I had a nightmarish thing last night where some terrorists had effectively sandboxed the universe 17:51:34 I don't actually code much in esolangs, I normally code interpreters for esolangs in non-esolangs 17:51:36 thus were capable of allowing/preventing anything they liked happening more or less 17:51:37 if you see what I mean 17:51:43 AnMaster: yes, I see what you mean 17:52:41 ais523, would implementing intercal in a functional language be much harder than in a non-functional one? 17:52:47 AnMaster: I don't think so 17:52:53 possibly it would even be easie 17:52:56 s/$/r/ 17:53:01 even? 17:53:09 it is hard to parse! 17:53:25 though erlang got a parser generator called yrl 17:53:39 AnMaster: in general functional langs can handle parsing better than imperative langs 17:53:41 or something like that 17:53:42 Well 17:53:43 you know 17:53:48 I think i'll allow real langs too 17:53:49 although declarative langs lead to parsers which are easier to read but slower 17:53:53 ah yecc 17:53:54 that is it 17:54:00 yrl is the file extension 17:54:03 Haskell's Parsec library is effectively declarative in the way it works 17:54:06 MODULE 17:54:06 yecc - LALR-1 Parser Generator 17:54:15 ais523, ^ 17:54:19 oh and INTERCAL isn't quite LALR-1 17:54:21 or even LR-1 17:54:23 it is almost 17:54:25 ok 17:54:27 will we play it!? 17:54:30 that roleplay 17:54:31 but there are a few weirdnesses with ti 17:54:31 finally 17:54:31 ais523, what are those? I don't know really 17:54:33 s/ti/it/ 17:54:34 Please 17:54:38 AnMaster: parser models 17:54:49 ais523, I see, yacc is LALR-1? 17:54:55 Who's going to play the roleplay (i allowed real langs too), raise a hand 17:54:57 * asiekierka raises a hand 17:54:59 basically LR(1) means that you can always parse the lang based on what you've seen so far and the next character 17:55:00 according to man page it is 17:55:06 AnMaster: yes, it is 17:55:16 hello? 17:55:18 ais523, same for bison then? 17:55:20 hi asiekierka 17:55:29 ais523, yet you use those to parse it? 17:55:34 Ok 17:55:39 AnMaster: yes, although bison also allows ELR(1) (I think that's what its called) which can parse anything but is inefficient on things that aren't LR(1) 17:55:51 AnMaster: well, what I do is I put some of the parsing in the lexer 17:55:56 :/ 17:56:00 :/ 17:56:09 bison sets flags which causes the lexer to lex differently 17:56:13 ais523, there is no lexer generator for erlang I think 17:56:19 and I maintain a stack of paren states by hand 17:56:35 and that's enough to make the lang LR(1) and LALR(1) from the parser's point of view 17:56:56 (LALR(1) is an optimisation of LR(1), which doesn't work on as many langs but is faster on the ones where it does, and is normally good enough in practice) 17:56:57 asiekierka, well, I got no idea about that game 17:57:12 ais523, what doesn't it work on then? 17:57:13 C? 17:57:35 AnMaster: no, the things which are LALR(1) and not LR(1) are mostly pathological 17:57:42 whoops, got that backwards 17:57:50 ais523, ah like INTERCAL? 17:57:51 I mean the things that are LR(1) and not LALR(1) are mostly pathological 17:57:55 AnMaster: INTERCAL is neither 17:58:00 due to its array syntax 17:58:03 ais523, which is even worse? 17:58:04 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:58:06 yes 17:58:12 in fact it isn't even LR(n) for any finite n 17:58:19 eh? 17:58:19 I went and proved that and wrote a little essay about it 17:58:29 what does the n mean? 17:58:36 AnMaster: lookahead amount 17:58:46 you need infinite lookahead to parse INTERCAL's array syntax in general 17:59:08 well what is ELR then? 17:59:10 however there's a restriction in the spec that programmers aren't allowed to write array expressions that require more than one char lookahead to parse 17:59:17 that was actually in the INTERCAL spec... 17:59:22 AnMaster: LR(1) + backtracking, I think 17:59:31 or not exactly backtracking as I think it multithreads 17:59:33 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:59:35 rather than backtracks 17:59:36 ok back 17:59:38 but it comes to the same thing 17:59:41 ok so what are these array expressions that are a problem? 17:59:41 So 17:59:47 when we will get to the roleplay? 17:59:57 asiekierka, I won't take part in it 18:00:04 asiekierka: I have no idea what you're going on about really, I don't see how you could easily roleplay something like that 18:00:05 But there are real langs too 18:00:06 -!- tusho|away has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:00:09 and it's about virtually everything 18:00:12 No 18:00:13 no rules 18:00:17 It's just to HAVE FUN. 18:00:23 }}|{{ 18:00:27 asiekierka: I really don't understand what you're trying to do 18:00:34 A roleplay 18:00:37 With no rules 18:00:39 We just walk around and do stuff 18:00:41 and create stuff. 18:00:44 yes, but those traditionally work very badly 18:00:44 Yes, we create stuff. 18:00:50 One didn't work out as bad 18:00:52 i made tons of them 18:00:56 and they turned out good 18:01:00 you may as well make it a coderoleplay if you're doing it with programming langs 18:01:04 and you'll end up inventing Second Life 18:01:31 in Befunge-98 18:01:39 "k on @ SHALL only kill the current IP in concurrent Funge." or "k on @ MUST only kill the current IP in concurrent Funge." 18:01:40 ais523, ^ 18:02:00 SHALL and MUST are equivalent in specs IIRC, I'm more used to SHALL 18:02:09 ais523, yes they are the same 18:02:16 but which is best English 18:02:19 that is what I wonder 18:02:29 they're both correct in English, MUST is heard more often in conversations 18:02:34 ok 18:02:54 SHALL has an implication of future-tense about it when said casually, although that isn't part of its meaning 18:03:33 You know 18:03:37 I just want to have fun. 18:03:39 Roleplay around. 18:03:42 A lot 18:05:08 ais523, % on negative numbers is undefined in funge-98, this led to the MODU fingerprint 18:05:16 should it be well defined in 108? 18:05:25 Deewiant, and MikeRiley too ^ 18:05:28 probably, define it the same way as C99 i suggest 18:05:40 well I'm not sure everyone will be happy with that 18:05:45 Deewiant, and MikeRiley: PING 18:06:13 because the C standardisation committee had the same problem, and whatever solution they settled on is likely to have been chosen for a good reason 18:07:37 what what what??? 18:07:45 MikeRiley, % for negative numbers 18:07:48 MikeRiley: % with negative numbers 18:07:51 the reason for MODU 18:07:52 i think it should be defined... 18:08:00 MikeRiley, right, question is, to what 18:08:04 even MODU was not well enough defined... 18:08:16 true 18:08:21 same way as C99? 18:08:25 that is what I'd select 18:08:32 that is what i would select as well... 18:08:32 but I need your and Deewiant's input on this 18:08:55 the C99 one makes more sense to me,,,, 18:09:54 1. Remainder by zero is subject to the same rules as division by zero. This rules take priority over rule two. 18:09:55 2. If either argument is negative, the result should be the same as in C99. 18:09:58 what about that? 18:10:14 sounds good 18:10:22 incidentally, x/0 is just 0 nowadays? 18:10:25 takes 18:10:27 not take? 18:10:28 err 18:10:29 and rule 18:10:37 "This rule takes priority over rule two." 18:10:38 even 18:10:40 yes, that's better 18:10:51 ais523, and yes x/0 is 0 in Funge-98 and later 18:10:54 I admit to rather liking the Befunge-93 ask-the-user-on-division-by-zero 18:10:58 but it isn't very professional 18:10:59 in funge-93 it was "ask user" 18:11:11 and Funge /looks/ like a professional esolang 18:11:15 even though there is no such thing 18:11:18 hm efunge implements "result=0" 18:11:23 for % and / 18:11:29 no idea what it does for negative numbres 18:11:32 numbers* 18:11:43 cfunge *is* C99, so it will do C99 % in that case 18:12:16 ais523, even better, you could give a funny message on it in 93 18:12:20 something like: 18:12:52 "Oops, we hit a division by zero (12/0), hm what should we use here?" 18:12:53 AnMaster: POING 18:13:02 Deewiant, so what about this for % in 108: 18:13:06 1. Remainder by zero is subject to the same rules as division by zero. This rules take priority over rule two. 18:13:06 2. If either argument is negative, the result should be the same as in C99. 18:13:06 AnMaster: might as well define it, I don't see why not 18:13:12 I fixed grammer 18:13:16 "This rule takes priority over rule two." 18:13:22 I think C99 has it defined the wrong way 18:13:30 Deewiant, oh? what way do you prefer? 18:14:11 Deewiant, ? 18:14:29 AnMaster: so that the result is always positive 18:14:41 Deewiant, hm why? 18:14:49 ais523, me and MikeRiley are all for C99 way 18:14:58 Deewiant, I guess this is because D does "always positive"? 18:15:04 the c99 way i think is reasonable... 18:15:11 I think D is implementation-defined actually, not sure 18:15:52 erlang seems to use C99 way 18:15:55 AnMaster: in number theory, it's the convention that it's always positive 18:16:09 Deewiant: always positive with negative first argument in number theory 18:16:17 but number theory doesn't use a negative second argument 18:16:19 in programming languages, it tends to be the same sign of the dividend/divisor 18:16:47 ais523: hmm, that's a point 18:17:08 C99 seems to bascially x%abs(y) 18:17:15 and use the sign of x 18:17:19 or? 18:17:21 in any case I'd prefer choosing the sign of the divisor over that of the dividend 18:17:26 AnMaster: that seems wrong, surely 18:17:30 i.e. the sign of y in that case 18:17:32 err maybe I'm wrong then 18:17:47 -!- olsner has joined. 18:19:34 $ ./a.out 18:19:34 -3 % 2 = -1 18:19:34 -3 % -2 = -1 18:19:34 3 % -2 = 1 18:19:35 AnMaster: is the funge frontend protocol meant to be fully textual? e.g. the integer 64 is sent as 0x36 0x34 and not 0x40 18:19:47 AnMaster: oh dear, that certainly looks wrong to me 18:19:51 AnMaster: the first should be 1 IMO 18:19:58 ais523, could be a GCC bug? 18:20:02 * ais523 agrees with Deewiant, that's what it is in number theory 18:20:04 AnMaster: I doubt it 18:20:29 oh, does anyone want to check http://rafb.net/p/w0ZNlj53.html - that befunge untested Cyclic Tag interpreter 18:20:33 Deewiant, the protocol is fully textual yes apart from the funge space dump thing iirc 18:20:46 Deewiant, or maybe that one too? 18:20:48 don't remember 18:20:54 anyway it is simply easier to parse 18:21:11 AnMaster: I don't know, but in any case I think you should state this explicitly, it wasn't completely clear to me :-) 18:21:31 FSPACEDUMP looks to be textual as well 18:21:40 ok 18:21:44 unless "as an integer" means something different 18:21:50 Deewiant, you are actually implementing it? 18:21:58 Deewiant, well it is probably textual then 18:22:05 just came to mind 18:22:11 as I was reading it and pondering 18:22:29 Deewiant, I consider the front end protocol more or less something I don't plan to do now 18:22:33 maybe sometime in the future 18:22:44 at least "put on hold from my side" 18:22:53 I need to make Befunge-64 18:22:59 asiekierka, eh? 18:23:00 As in, a version of befunge-93 for the c64 18:23:04 ah 18:23:04 then maybe I should implement it, so that I can set up a de facto standard which you need to follow when you write the spec ;-) 18:23:09 For one thing, the boardsize is limited to 40x25 18:23:15 Deewiant, very funny :P 18:23:33 Deewiant, but yes it is fully textual 18:23:49 Another, there's a command s, to move the value that's on top of the stack to the very bottom of the stack 18:23:51 40? 18:24:07 and q, to remove the value from the very bottom of the stack 18:24:13 Yes 18:24:17 AnMaster: well, I doubt you'd be so stupid as to do completely the opposite to every choice I'd make, so it's not a bad plan ;-) 18:24:19 C64's screen resolution is 40x25 18:24:24 Another, there's a command s, to move the value that's on top of the stack to the very bottom of the stack 18:24:28 does that make Befunge TC? 18:24:32 Befunge-93, that is? 18:24:32 nopr 18:24:37 nope, i think 18:24:42 It only makes a possibility 18:24:44 ah, yes, it does I think 18:24:48 whoah 18:24:49 how? 18:25:02 There's still no unbounded storage 18:25:02 Deewiant, ask me if stuff is unclear please 18:25:03 because you can reserve a special sentinel value to separate stacks 18:25:11 AnMaster: certainly 18:25:12 and use multiple stacks as unbounded storage 18:25:21 But you can only have a single 4KB stack 18:25:22 rotating between stacks by repeatedly using s until you hit the sentinel 18:25:31 asiekierka: well if there's a 4KB limit it isn't TC 18:25:38 but that's the limit of the c64 18:25:44 there's only 4KB free ram while using C64 Basic 18:25:50 but if the stack is unbounded, which it is in Befunge-93 in theory, then it's TC with your s instructio 18:25:54 asiekierka, also s is a bad thing to select 18:26:08 why 18:26:11 like all other printable chars below 127 they are already in use in 98 18:26:23 asiekierka, also note you should use ASCII 18:26:29 Possible. 18:26:31 because it is code point 32 that is space 18:26:39 even if it doesn't look like a space on the local system 18:26:40 I can put a custom charset for the c64 18:26:44 the 98 specs say so clearly 18:26:54 you can put a custom 256-char charset on the c64 18:26:57 ok 18:27:06 AnMaster: why is s a bad choice if he's doing Befunge-93 18:27:09 hm 18:27:11 it doesn't matter 18:27:13 Deewiant, ok good point 18:27:18 for 93 it doesn't matter 18:28:01 Also, i'd allow 80x25 size 18:28:06 asiekierka, anyway messing with the bottom of the stack will make it slow 18:28:06 either 40x25 or 80x25 18:28:18 asiekierka, larger space is not an issue if it is unused 18:28:20 Nope if i start the stack at the middle 18:28:26 And just change the stack pointer value 18:28:37 asiekierka, what if you need more than what you can fit on one side? 18:28:48 you will need to reallocate the stack then 18:28:52 It wouldn't get saved then. 18:29:01 asiekierka, eh? 18:29:02 Or something else 18:29:06 I can use reallocation anyway 18:29:07 wouldn't you reallocate the stack? 18:29:14 but it'll make befunge64 a pain to use 18:29:45 asiekierka, well start in the middle, and reallocate if you hit either edge and there is free space at the other edge 18:29:47 Also, where can i play irc roleplays? 18:30:10 asiekierka: no idea, try searching for them on the web, there's got to be one somewhere 18:30:18 but not a "ircbot irc roleplay" 18:30:22 a "freestyle irc roleplay" 18:30:23 -!- tusho has joined. 18:30:32 wb tusho 18:30:47 AnMaster: are all errors meant to be sendable from either end? RANGE and FILEERR seem like they could only come from the interpreter 18:30:56 When did I disco? 18:31:06 Oh 18:31:11 i don't need to reallocate 18:31:13 i can do 18:31:13 Deewiant, hm I'd need to check that 18:31:24 e - replace the last value on the stack with the current error code 18:31:36 wish I could learn languages as fast as asiekierka :P 18:31:39 whatcha doin now 18:32:04 want to play a freestyle irc roleplay; w/o an irc bot 18:32:13 optbot: hi 18:32:14 ais523: gimp and inkscape 18:32:40 Deewiant, indeed they can probably only come from the interpreter 18:32:44 optbot: you should be in more channels shoudln't you 18:32:44 tusho: You should be in a quantum superposition of dancing and not dancing! 18:32:57 optbot: good counter 18:32:57 ais523: What? 18:33:04 ais523, Deewiant, by the way I got an interesting idea, *real* concurrent funge, like concurrency in erlang 18:33:17 could be a pretty interesting fingerprint 18:33:28 i guess optbot is saying that it's impossible for him to be in multiple channels like that 18:33:29 tusho: yes 18:33:52 wait 18:33:52 why is he intelligent now 18:33:54 AnMaster: and how would that work 18:33:57 that made *sense* 18:34:02 Deewiant, not sure 18:34:02 incidentally, optbot, I like the topic 18:34:02 ais523: NAND is the only operator you ever need. 18:34:04 just an idea 18:34:08 I've thought about "real" concurrency in funge 18:34:20 but it seems to me the current model is as concurrent as you can get 18:34:23 AnMaster: asiekierka: he has operating hours of intelligence 18:34:24 I told you 18:34:28 Deewiant, well distributed funge would be fun 18:34:37 sometimes he makes perfect sense 18:34:45 optbot: you do, don't you? 18:34:46 ais523: how about we'll test its usefuless with the competition: 18:34:50 xD 18:34:53 optbot: What's the competition? 18:34:54 asiekierka: yo 18:34:57 AnMaster: unless you want to have multiple threads executing in the interpreter, so that order of execution is undefined? 18:35:02 optbot: No, but, what's the competition? 18:35:02 asiekierka: nice of bc 18:35:06 :( 18:35:08 Deewiant, yeah 18:35:11 the operation hour just ended 18:35:16 AnMaster: as for distributed, just make your CFFI and use MPI... 18:35:17 Deewiant, but distributed funge *sounds* fun 18:35:20 Deewiant: strangely, Threaded INTERCAL has 'ticks' too, at least in all known implementations 18:35:26 Deewiant, nah, erlang style 18:35:36 optbot: can you make sense? 18:35:36 asiekierka: stillllll going 18:35:41 AnMaster: what's the difference in style between erlang and MPI 18:35:44 optbot: great. 18:35:44 asiekierka: If you *insist* on doing the basic bootstrapping, you need to start with a system where you can input the individual bits yourself, and go up from there. 18:35:49 Deewiant, I don't know MPI 18:35:53 but does it use shared memory= 18:35:53 optbot: oh, i see. 18:35:54 asiekierka: !glass {M[m(_e)(Emote)!"is not!"(_e)e.?]} 18:35:54 ? 18:35:58 AnMaster: so why'd you say "nah, erlang style" :-P 18:35:59 Whaaaatt? 18:36:05 Deewiant, if it uses shared memory it will be different 18:36:06 AnMaster: no, it doesn't, Message Passing Interface 18:36:09 ah 18:36:17 Deewiant, probably similar then 18:36:18 AnMaster: and you know... we were talking distributed 18:36:25 how exactly would you run distributed using shared memory 18:36:30 Deewiant, to the erlang program it all seems like they run on the same node 18:36:35 it is all abstracted away 18:36:41 AnMaster: or rather, one can't tell the difference 18:36:43 same in MPI 18:36:55 well one can, by using node() 18:36:57 although I think version 2 has something for finding out if they're on the same machine or not 18:37:03 not sure 18:37:16 Deewiant, there are ways to find out in erlang 18:37:19 but anyhoo, I think they're quite similar in style 18:37:32 and even way to use a specific system 18:37:33 or paradigm, whatever 18:37:37 but you don't need it 18:37:39 Deewiant, probably 18:37:50 Deewiant, anyway concurrency work the same way in erlang 18:37:52 message passing 18:37:53 optbot: do you love someone? 18:37:53 asiekierka: I thought that Easel, ESOapi or the like would be used for the os 18:38:08 AnMaster: yes, I know 18:38:18 Deewiant, anyway distributed funge *sounds* fun, even if it can't be done 18:38:25 it it worth thinking about imo 18:38:30 optbot: do you love someone? 18:38:31 asiekierka: The internet lacks a Guy Fawkes smiley. 18:38:37 optbot: do you love Guy Fawkes? 18:38:38 asiekierka: Though I use vim all the time (in the vim-emacs war, there is only one), I don't know that I would qualify it as "good" in the modern world :) 18:38:49 optbot: by it, you mean him? 18:38:49 optbot: ! 18:38:49 asiekierka: there's just pronouns and noun genders, so i don't see how you could have less than finnish 18:38:49 Deewiant: G'night (or morning) everyone. 18:38:59 optbot, emacs! 18:38:59 AnMaster: um 18:39:03 optbot: what? 18:39:03 asiekierka: "how's t going"? 18:39:03 optbot: mu 18:39:03 Deewiant: lCons 18:39:10 optbot: deewiant 18:39:10 asiekierka: Fuck you reader of my code 18:39:10 optbot, yes emacs is better than vim! 18:39:10 AnMaster: Passed validation 18:39:11 optbot: rSnoc 18:39:11 Deewiant: ~exec self.raw("QUIT :Excess Flood") 18:39:14 :D 18:39:18 optbot, ur cool 18:39:18 asiekierka: I've gotten 5 applications from them. . . 18:39:19 optbot, ur cool 18:39:19 optbot, ur cool 18:39:19 asiekierka: up to you. do you want your real name in the source code of befunge interpreters? :-P 18:39:19 asiekierka: OK I'll implement selector 18:39:20 optbot, ur cool 18:39:20 optbot, ur cool 18:39:20 optbot, ur cool 18:39:20 asiekierka: My bfgolf code is, in fact, 31 characters. 18:39:20 asiekierka: MWAHAHAHA SOON MY CREATION IS COMPLETE 18:39:20 asiekierka: We can add a character to be `a', and accented it becomes ``an''. 18:39:21 optbot, yes emacs is better than vim! AnMaster: Passed validation 18:39:22 AnMaster: that was just the wrong channel :P 18:39:23 optbot! 18:39:24 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Argh.. 18:39:30 asiekierka, stop the spam please 18:39:30 optbot! 18:39:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i'm still wondering where the conversation with oerjan was.... 18:39:36 optbot! 18:39:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | no please dont. 18:39:42 asiekierka: stop 18:39:44 asiekierka, stop spamming please 18:39:46 or I will make optbot ignore you 18:39:46 tusho: abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmnt_bot 18:39:51 learn your goddamn limits 18:39:57 what 18:40:01 i stopped! 18:40:04 bsmntbombdood: asiekierka was spamming 18:40:06 like always 18:40:12 asiekierka: you just don't know _when_ to stop 18:40:15 :/ 18:40:16 -!- MikeRiley has quit ("Leaving"). 18:40:18 ehird, that was mean 18:40:22 no it wasn't 18:40:26 yes it was 18:40:28 as alays 18:40:31 always* 18:40:40 "you don't know when to stop" is a statement of fact and I think after that most here will agree 18:40:44 Deewiant, anyway, what is team in funge? it is mentioned in y in funge-98, but I can't find any info on it 18:40:53 agreed 18:40:56 with ehird 18:41:27 Deewiant, "1 cell containing a unique team number for the current IP (ip)" 18:41:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Spelling out:. 18:41:33 * tusho will never understand why asiekierka will say I'm wrong, then I'll say why I said something, then he agrees with it (and it is always criticism of him) 18:41:37 * tusho shrugs 18:41:43 AnMaster: not sure, but to me it seemed to imply some sort of code-wars style competition where multiple programs were busy trying to overwrite each other, but with teammates 18:41:58 possibly that's too fanciful, but it sounds like a great idea 18:41:59 optbot! 18:41:59 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | The big ones are Brainfuck, Befunge and Intercal.. 18:42:05 ais523, "Only significant for NetFunge, BeGlad, and the like." 18:42:14 wow, we have a meaningful topic for once 18:42:21 AnMaster: yes, that line was what got me thinking 18:42:37 ITYM corewars; that's the program-overwriting game. 18:42:45 i like corewars 18:42:47 fizzie: yes, that's it 18:43:00 there's FYB as a Brainfuck version but it's broken, it has a degenerate strategy 18:43:19 ais523, I can't find any info on those 18:43:39 ais523: i started to make BeYourFunge a while back 18:43:44 AnMaster: esoprogramming stuff tends to disappear quickly, that's the problem 18:43:47 befunge-93 wars 18:44:00 ais523, I'll have to mail Pressy then... 18:44:04 tusho: would probably work better than the Brainfuck version, and Befunge-93 is good as it would help to keep the playfield small 18:44:08 which is important 18:44:14 AnMaster: gregorr made FYB 18:44:18 I suggest you just use regular Befunge-93, no modifications 18:44:19 (FuckYorBrane) 18:44:26 tusho, err... 18:44:29 AnMaster: that is the only mention of teams I have found, ask Chris 18:44:38 tusho, what? 18:44:38 each program is 40x25, and each program's fungespace is the other's upside-down 18:44:41 Deewiant, hm 18:44:53 I was just thinking of corewars in befunge a while ago 18:45:04 don't think it would work out too well 18:45:07 Deewiant, but is that what it is? 18:45:08 and you win by getting the other program to execute @ 18:45:20 ais523, you need to disallow q then... 18:45:24 AnMaster: basically multiple programs/processes running at the same time, trying to overwrite each other 18:45:26 AnMaster: in Befunge-93? 18:45:30 AnMaster: like said, I only know what the spec says, which is to say, nothing 18:45:39 ais523, if you want multiple programs on each side? 18:45:53 hmm, befunge-93 instructions only might even make it meaningful 18:45:54 AnMaster: then you'd need team numbers, presumanbly 18:46:12 ais523, which means 98 or at least 93+threads 18:52:42 AnMaster: fatal ERRs shouldn't be responded to, right? 18:53:08 -!- Corun has joined. 18:53:18 Deewiant, err let me check 18:53:21 AnMaster: say you get ERR MYCUSTOMERROR 1, in theory one would send "ERR UNSUPPARAM 1 what the hell kind of error is that" 18:53:35 AnMaster: but since it's fatal anyway one it might make sense to not send anything 18:53:42 AnMaster: so which is it? The PDF is silent :-) 18:54:06 I think you should send "ERR UNSUPPARAM 1" to that then... 18:54:12 and then close connection 18:54:26 wait no 18:54:29 probably not 18:54:40 Deewiant, no reply needed since original one is fatal 18:55:32 Deewiant, anyway custom error should have been negotiated with CAP first 18:55:41 logically 18:56:15 also the example for error got an error 18:56:26 "ERR NOMEM 1 Could not allocate memory for setting cell." 18:56:29 should be like that 18:56:49 I will put up a fixed version before I go to bed, not now in case you got more questions 18:58:50 AnMaster: yes it should have been, but there's the possibility of bugs in either frontend or interpreter 18:59:22 well since it is fatal it is probably pointless to send an error back 18:59:38 alright 18:59:45 Deewiant, of course it may not be if there is a bug in the other end ;P 18:59:52 "All errors except those not causing immediate termination of program execution are treated as fatal.2 18:59:53 so it sends fatal when it shouldn't ;P 18:59:54 s/2/"/ 19:00:03 ais523, eh? 19:00:06 what is that from 19:00:07 AnMaster: well that's its problem 19:00:11 AnMaster: the original INTERCAL-72 manual 19:00:16 ais523, oh um 19:00:28 well, my memory of it, I might have misquoted slightly 19:00:29 if it wasn't intercal I would say it was a typo 19:00:30 :P 19:00:46 AnMaster: no, it's just a double negative which leads to a tautology 19:00:56 "tautology"? 19:01:16 AnMaster: a statement that is true no matter what the state of the world due to its logical structure 19:01:21 oh 19:01:24 for instance "Either the sky is blue or the sky is not blue" 19:01:36 or X = X? 19:01:52 AnMaster: yes, unless X is NaN 19:02:06 ais523, assuming algebra 19:02:11 not computer arithmetics 19:02:41 "longcat is long" 19:02:44 an example closer to home :P 19:05:11 tusho, eh? 19:05:26 "closer to home"? 19:05:27 AnMaster: tip - if I say something you don't understand ignore me 19:05:28 :D 19:07:00 anyone here expert on movies? 19:07:07 possibly, but I'm not 19:07:14 i'm kinda having a hard time searching a movie based on the outline of the plot. 19:07:17 optbot: feather 19:07:17 tusho: HARDWARE SUPPORT FOR LINKED LIST OPERATIONS. 19:07:21 optbot: feather has that? cool 19:07:22 tusho: I'm disappointed 19:10:04 tusho: p(x) => p(x) for any x and p :P 19:10:36 I mean... logical meme is logical 19:10:49 haha 19:10:49 olsner: what about p is the string "false; //" without the quotes 19:11:01 optbot: What did you watch on youtube lately? 19:11:01 asiekierka: Hi oerjan 19:11:02 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:11:02 or can I not do comment injection into tautologies? 19:11:10 The operating hours ended :( 19:11:14 optbot: Aww. 19:11:14 asiekierka: E!ps 19:11:19 optbot: I knew it! 19:11:19 asiekierka: do you return EXIT_SUCCESS; from main() on a successful termination? 19:11:19 oklopol: you can, of course, ask anyway, in case somebody knows the movie. :-P 19:11:27 wow, EsoBot hasn't been in here for ages 19:11:29 optbot: your operating hours ended :( 19:11:29 asiekierka: isn't it just a certain kind of corn? 19:11:38 and E! was its command prefix IIRC 19:11:49 ais523: the shell thing? 19:11:49 well, there's this monster that eats a town full of people about every 10000 years. 19:12:02 tusho: I'm not entirely sure what it did, just Brainfuck I think 19:12:10 ais523: no calamari's EsoBot was a shell 19:12:13 a full virtualised system 19:12:15 with root 19:12:17 wow 19:12:17 movie starts with two women entering a town, and finding that everyone is dead 19:12:25 cuz, the monster has decided to eat them ofc 19:12:33 ais523: he got rid of it because he threw a tizzy fit when we started messing with it and messing up the system 19:12:48 the monster looks kinda like a butterfly, and can shoot massive fireballs, apparently. 19:12:52 tusho: what would people expect, this is #esotericc 19:12:55 ais523: blabbing like "IT'S MEANT FOR TESTING NEW ESOLANGS!!!11" and we told him that we had perfectly good computers for that, but we liked EsoBot because it's fun to see how it can survive 19:12:56 you only see it once, very briefly 19:12:59 well, without the extra c 19:13:06 ais523: and he just whined about how we were immature and got rid of it 19:13:13 * tusho shrugs 19:13:28 IIRC bsmntbombdood actively encouraged people to try to hack into the computer bsmnt_bot was running on via the bot 19:13:39 lol that's right 19:13:48 hah that's great 19:13:54 bsmntbombdood: can bsmnt_bot return? 19:13:57 we need brainfuck and stuff 19:13:58 and egobot is dead 19:14:09 yeah 19:14:09 tusho: i've kind of, er, lost access to the server it ran on 19:14:16 bsmntbombdood: I have a nice server 19:14:16 :3 19:14:20 tusho, what happened to egobot 19:14:23 AnMaster: dunno 19:14:28 who owned it? 19:14:33 AnMaster: gregor 19:14:36 GregorR I think 19:14:40 where is he then? 19:14:41 greEGOrr 19:14:45 it was open-source, though 19:14:47 AnMaster: a while back he was in prague 19:14:49 Deewiant: did you know it? :) 19:14:55 and the source is in the Esoteric Files Archive 19:14:58 oklopol: nope :-P 19:15:02 oklopol: maybe one of http://www.imdb.com/keyword/giant-monster/giant-insect/ ? 19:15:02 so someone could try to resurrect it, though 19:15:02 ais523: i'd prefer to revive bsmnt_bot, though 19:15:07 because we can make it behave the exact same 19:15:15 it wasn't perfect, though, someone DOSed Gregor's server using EgoBot 19:15:16 and it has more extensibility 19:15:28 -!- Iskr has left (?). 19:15:29 I could try to host it 19:15:29 tusho, maybe I'd code one in erlang ;P 19:15:31 j/k 19:15:32 But i have windows 19:15:33 tusho: EgoBot was extensible, I added Underload to it using Keymaker's Underload-in-Brainfuck program 19:15:40 ais523: but not via IRC 19:15:44 and also i can't really do it at fast speed 19:15:45 tell you what 19:15:46 I'll put up both 19:15:53 tusho, actually hooking up a esolang server to a bot framework would be easy in erlang 19:15:55 3kbps 19:15:57 I mean adding new ones 19:15:58 upload 19:15:58 -!- tusho has changed nick to bsmnt_bot. 19:16:02 tusho: yes I did, I got it to load the Underload interpreter from pastebin by sending commands over IRC 19:16:04 tusho, what do you think of that idea? 19:16:10 bsmntbombdood: if you want it back, drop this nick and gimme the source 19:16:10 :P 19:16:22 bsmnt_bot, ^ 19:16:24 tusho ^ 19:16:27 ehird ^ 19:16:28 AnMaster: botte is superior 19:16:30 :) 19:16:33 anyway. 19:16:37 Also, does anyone have a shell-like utility for windows 19:16:37 * bsmnt_bot finds egobot source 19:16:38 tusho: botte is nonexistent 19:16:40 erlang irc bot + esolang servers 19:16:41 so i can put up a shell on windows 19:16:42 :D 19:16:43 would 19:16:44 ais523: and so is AnMaster's 19:16:44 rock 19:16:52 indeed 19:16:53 it is 19:16:56 it was just an idea 19:16:57 Is there a windows shell server? 19:17:02 that I may never implement 19:17:03 supporting irc 19:17:03 * bsmnt_bot sets up egobot and maybe bsmnt_bot if bsmntbombdood gives me the source 19:17:11 I don't even pretend I do 19:17:14 asiekierka, eww 19:17:20 windows shell server!? 19:17:21 wtf 19:17:28 a shell server running on windows 19:17:34 does that exist? 19:17:35 or at least something to put an esolang bot 19:17:40 it shouldn't exist 19:17:42 Yeah, sorta, for telnet/ssh 19:17:43 it is a horrible idea 19:17:49 !! here comes egobot !! 19:17:51 ais523: name our egobot 19:17:53 -!- lament has joined. 19:17:56 saluton 19:17:57 a shell server should run *nix 19:18:00 asiekierka, ^ 19:18:00 Egorbot? :P 19:18:00 oh, hi, egobot 19:18:03 wait, you're not egobot 19:18:08 you're lament 19:18:10 AnMaster: haha, nice sentence in your spec 19:18:12 give me a minute 19:18:12 "The identifier is used in for when activating extensions to refer to these them." 19:18:16 asiekierka: a common mistake 19:18:17 yay 19:18:17 tusho: GregorR didn't want people using the "Ego" prefix 19:18:19 bsmnt_bot will come too! 19:18:21 Deewiant, some typo 19:18:23 ais523: ah true 19:18:24 Deewiant, what section? 19:18:29 AnMaster: 4.2.3 19:18:31 ais523: ErgoBot? 19:18:32 -!- bsmnt_bot has changed nick to ErgoBot. 19:18:35 ah, I like that 19:18:42 taken 19:18:42 fi, beautiful 19:18:52 what, by you or by someone else? 19:18:53 -!- ErgoBot has changed nick to IdBot. 19:18:56 freud! 19:18:57 Deewiant, well I'm not sure what it meant 19:19:07 !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@ 19:19:14 :( 19:19:17 not yet? 19:19:17 :( 19:19:21 asiekierka: be patient 19:19:26 Oh well, i'll run it on my mIRC 19:19:26 as in 19:19:27 "The identifier is used when activating extensions to refer to them." 19:19:27 !optbot 19:19:28 lament: heh 19:19:31 Deewiant, does that make sense? 19:19:37 !optbot 19:19:38 lament: me having PSOX on highlight? 19:19:48 optbot: yes. 19:19:48 lament: I guess it checks hardlinks 19:19:53 i do /brainfuck (code) and what i /msg to the chan i said it in is the output 19:19:55 optbot: so you have PSOX hardlinked? 19:19:55 lament: I resubmitted it 19:19:56 for example, i'll /brainfuck ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@ 19:19:58 AnMaster: "The identifier is used to refer to extensions when activating them."? 19:19:59 HelloWorld! 19:20:01 Done 19:20:04 asiekierka shut up :P 19:20:07 optbot: ok, i'll check the mailbox 19:20:08 lament: CPU lag/queue? you dont get your water till something else comes down the pipe... 19:20:09 So tell me what code shall i run 19:20:24 hmm 19:20:24 asiekierka: [] 19:20:27 ais523: EgoBot isn't registered 19:20:27 optbot: i know, i thought that would be an issue, but it seems to work in practice 19:20:27 lament: Lincoln's Gettysburg Address? 19:20:30 shall I just call it that? 19:20:33 as it is just egobot 19:20:33 Deewiant, probably 19:20:35 until gregorr is here 19:20:37 optbot: okay, now you're just talking nonsense 19:20:37 lament: squyyyyyy 19:20:40 -!- IdBot has changed nick to EgoBot. 19:20:41 hm 19:20:42 it IS taken 19:20:46 odd 19:20:48 -!- EgoBot has changed nick to IdBot. 19:20:52 egobot itself doesn't identify 19:20:57 let's call him ehirdbot 19:20:57 this is getting confusing 19:21:03 AnMaster: oh, and I think protocol negotiation needs a "DONE" msg or some such from interpreter, or empty CAP 19:21:12 ais523: ok, I'm setting up egobot 19:21:13 -!- IdBot has changed nick to tusho. 19:21:14 oh, I /so/ want to implement CTCP SWAPNICK now... 19:21:16 Deewiant, ah hm... 19:21:19 AnMaster: er, from frontend 19:21:21 ais523: as IdBot 19:21:26 bsmntbombdood is apparently getting the bsmnt_bot source 19:21:29 so that will be back too 19:21:32 AnMaster: because it now says "may activate extensions by sending CAP" 19:21:47 Deewiant, oh yes for no caps 19:21:50 empty CAP I'd say 19:21:52 AnMaster: but the state should change to pre-run, where CAP is invalid, after that 19:22:00 yeah, that's what I'd do too 19:22:13 i haven't written code for like 6 months 19:22:18 /usr/bin/ld: safe.o: relocation R_X86_64_32 against `a local symbol' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC 19:22:24 i fucking hate ckpt 19:22:26 i probably won't even be able to get bsmnt_bot working again 19:22:35 bsmntbombdood: i just need the source 19:22:37 and the nick 19:22:40 for it to return :P 19:22:41 "If the front end doesn't want to activate any extensions, it should send an empty CAP." 19:22:42 tusho: ckpt? 19:22:42 Deewiant, ^ 19:22:49 ais523: linux process suspend library 19:22:51 that egobot uses 19:22:53 its so broken 19:22:55 doesnt' compile on anything 19:23:06 "process suspend library"? 19:23:08 AnMaster: s/front end/frontend/ 19:23:15 Also, tusho, could you please add a befunge interpreter? 19:23:15 tusho, "suspend library"? 19:23:16 tusho ain't got teh skillz 19:23:20 Oh wait, befunge is impossible 19:23:26 Except if you do a shell script 19:23:31 asiekierka: no it isn't, EgoBot implemented it 19:23:35 Wha? 19:23:37 In 2D? 19:23:40 as a URI 19:23:41 tusho, and yeah use -fpic when you compile libraries 19:23:43 you pastebinned the Befunge and gave it a link to the pastebin 19:23:44 tusho, really 19:23:47 oh 19:23:54 AnMaster: egobot's makefile doesn't 19:23:57 I had to edit the makefile 19:24:00 gcc -shared -fPIC -nostartfiles -Xlinker -Bsymbolic \ 19:24:01 -o librestart.so safe.o /usr/lib/libc.a 19:24:01 gcc -shared -fPIC -nostartfiles -Xlinker -Bsymbolic \ 19:24:01 Deewiant, right 19:24:05 -o librestart.so safe.o /usr/lib/libc.a 19:24:12 err 19:24:12 tusho, well you'd need -fpic on x86_64 19:24:13 gcc -shared -fPIC -nostartfiles -Xlinker -Bsymbolic \ 19:24:13 -o librestart.so safe.o /usr/lib/libc.a 19:24:18 but not on x86 19:24:21 Will there be a contest to hack on it 19:24:22 tusho, and use lower case pic 19:24:23 really 19:24:23 xD 19:24:25 sorry 19:24:25 basically 19:24:26 AnMaster: I did -fpic!!!! 19:24:27 But it gives the same error. 19:24:35 tusho, not -fPIC but -fpic yes 19:24:45 AnMaster: SAME ERROR 19:24:50 tusho, make clean in between? 19:25:03 SAME ERROR 19:25:05 :| 19:25:09 because AnMaster 19:25:09 Why does it use ckpt? For what? 19:25:11 tusho, link to this source? 19:25:14 AnMaster: it links /usr/lib/libc.a 19:25:14 process suspend 19:25:20 tusho, well fix that then 19:25:23 AnMaster: I CAN'T 19:25:26 THAT'S HOW CKPT WORKS 19:25:32 tusho, err that makes no sense 19:25:38 make ckpt a static library then 19:25:40 that would work 19:25:42 brb food 19:25:43 AnMaster: i can't! 19:25:54 i'm not some magical genie who can understand crazy code like ckpt as soon as I see it! 19:26:12 Also, can you put up Frotz or something, for IF games 19:26:20 So we can play interactive fiction 19:26:27 Anyone will be able to issue commands 19:26:32 no 19:26:42 why :( 19:27:00 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:27:02 why (._.( yhw 19:27:10 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:28:09 oh 19:28:10 i see 19:28:15 you want me to put up my own bot for that 19:28:24 no 19:28:28 this is not #if 19:28:36 But it'll be there for fun 19:28:43 not in here it won't be 19:28:44 just like a channel about an old GCS 19:28:48 has a werewolf engine 19:28:55 hey lament 19:29:00 do you want a spammy interactive fiction bot in here? 19:29:01 hmm? 19:29:04 Nope 19:29:10 it'll only work when you enable it, tusho. 19:29:10 I was asking lament asiekierka 19:29:13 and by you i mean YOU. 19:29:23 yes, I'd so love to have a command that spams up this channel on demant 19:29:24 *demand 19:29:33 You can put it to #irp 19:29:39 no i couldn't 19:29:40 I don't want one 19:29:42 I wouldn't use one 19:29:46 I have no incentive to write/download one 19:29:47 end 19:30:03 so what will it have except esolang support 19:30:08 nothin 19:30:08 g 19:30:20 what esolangs will it support then 19:30:27 what egobot supported 19:30:35 what did he support 19:30:37 ais523: any ideas about ckpt 19:30:41 asiekierka: i don't know. lots 19:30:58 tusho: no, I don't know what it is 19:31:08 ais523: cd ~tusho/egobot*/ckpt 19:31:09 asiekierka: quite a lot of popular ones 19:31:16 tusho: I'm in the middle of two other things atm 19:31:21 ais523: INTERCAL!? 19:31:25 no 19:31:38 figuring out why normish was blacklisted for spamming, and writing a technology report for Wikipedia 19:31:49 what about brainfork 19:31:52 or piet 19:32:08 it did at least one image-based language I think, not sure if it did piet though 19:32:17 it could do brainloller/braincopter 19:32:29 since it'd be just running a brainloller/braincopter2bf and running !bf 19:32:56 tusho, idea then 19:32:57 -m32 19:33:05 that ought to work if you have multilib 19:33:22 also where is the source for that library 19:34:55 AnMaster: what is the name for the libc.a for 32 bit? 19:34:58 if I have multilib 19:35:12 tusho, it would be in /usr/lib32 probably 19:35:35 mem.c: In function 'call_with_new_stack': 19:35:36 mem.c:291: error: 'JB_SP' undeclared (first use in this function) 19:35:37 wtfoo :\ 19:35:57 tusho, well that is an error related to something not being declared 19:36:02 you'd need to check the source 19:36:12 AnMaster: I know C god damnit 19:36:21 JB_SP is an internal elf/linux thing I believe 19:36:26 oh my 19:36:31 /* FIXME: Looks like there are about 16 bytes on the 19:36:31 stack that will be unwound by the return and call 19:36:31 to fn */ 19:36:32 jbuf[0].__jmpbuf[JB_SP] = stack_base; 19:36:35 tusho, what does that ckpt thing do? 19:36:41 AnMaster: suspends processes to disk 19:36:42 I told you 19:36:54 tusho, err, like core dumps that can be resumed? 19:36:59 wtf 19:37:00 pretty much 19:37:06 AnMaster: well emacs does that 19:37:07 tusho, that sounds like what emacs does 19:37:11 AnMaster: egobot uses it for keeping state on all the esolang interps it uses 19:37:19 ais523, as I said just half a second before (from my side) 19:37:26 tusho, which is pretty wtf 19:37:39 well I said it about half a second before at my end, so the messages must have crossed 19:37:49 tusho, what I find most interesting is that it could probably be done pretty easily and cleanly in erlang 19:37:49 ;P 19:38:00 AnMaster: even more cleanly and easily in Smalltalk 19:38:06 AnMaster: Could it survive a system crash? 19:38:07 No. 19:38:10 tusho, yes 19:38:12 How's egobot coming? 19:38:13 distributed 19:38:14 or Underlambda for that matter because its continuations can be written out to disk 19:38:15 tusho, :) 19:38:15 and reloaded 19:38:21 tusho, another node could 19:38:22 AnMaster: Yes because I have 50 servers to run egobot on 19:38:27 and then restart the first node 19:38:37 tusho, or you could probably suspend a erlang process to disk 19:38:39 also 19:38:48 tusho, why the heck does it need to suspend state across a crash? 19:38:57 AnMaster: I DON'T KNOW HOW EGOBOT WORKS 19:39:01 WHY DOES EVERYONE THINK I DO 19:39:07 AnMaster: imagine an esolang like Network Headache 19:39:08 if it need permanent data, use a database 19:39:15 ais523, what is that one? 19:39:15 AnMaster: IT USES THIRD-PARTY INTERPS 19:39:17 NOT ITS OWN 19:39:29 AnMaster: all Network Headache programs everywhere share the same IP and variables 19:39:36 ais523, it exists? 19:39:38 and bits of code from all of them are run one after another 19:39:42 AnMaster: I think so, there's an interp somewhere 19:39:55 ofc the nature of the language is that there can only ever possibly be one interp for it 19:39:58 I must add one command to Befunge 19:40:04 Befunge-64 of course 19:40:12 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Network_Headache 19:40:14 oh my 19:40:19 you know, befunge-93 with the command s that takes the top of the stack to the bottom 19:40:31 or not 19:40:35 hm 19:40:37 asiekierka: you don't need it 19:40:39 befunge-93 is almost TC 19:40:40 I just wanted to make a Robot Finds Kitten game for befunge 19:40:41 you mentioned s before 19:40:43 you can implement tc 19:40:46 tusho@rutian:~/egobot-0.12/ckpt$ find /usr/include -exec grep JB_SP {} \; 19:40:47 tusho@rutian:~/egobot-0.12/ckpt$ 19:40:47 :| 19:41:00 yes, robotfindskittenfunge 19:41:07 Or even invent a fungeoid 19:41:10 a RobotFindsKittenfunge 19:41:20 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 19:41:24 tusho, is it elf related you said? 19:41:28 AnMaster: setjmp related 19:41:33 some internal thing 19:41:54 tusho, it shouldn't mess in internal stuff 19:41:57 the initials JB did remind me of setjmp 19:41:59 probably broke it 19:42:09 AnMaster: YEAH BECAUSE SUSPENDING PROCESSES IS TRIVIAL TO DO PORTABLY RIGHT 19:42:09 $ grep -R JB_SP /usr/lib/binutils/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/2.18/include/ 19:42:16 $ grep -R JB_SP /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/include/ 19:42:17 nothing 19:42:29 * AnMaster checks 3.x too 19:42:31 tusho: it is, just use Underlambda 19:42:45 it's specified in the Underlambda specs that you can write functions out to disk and reload them from disk 19:42:49 and a continuation is a type of function 19:42:51 so it's easy 19:42:58 -!- tusho has changed nick to IdBot. 19:43:03 -!- IdBot has changed nick to tusho. 19:43:20 hm 19:43:26 ais523, what about haskell then? 19:43:38 I don't think you can do that i nHaskell 19:43:47 or indeed in most langs 19:43:58 most langs don't have an output-a-function command 19:44:02 ais523, I think you may be able to seralize a erlang process, but not sure 19:44:02 nor an input-a-function 19:44:36 ais523, erlang certainly got "(un)seralize a term" 19:44:47 AnMaster: and terms can be functions? 19:44:54 does it have continuations? 19:44:55 ais523, I don't *think* so 19:44:57 but not sure 19:45:02 ais523, continuations hm 19:45:06 if you can serialise a continuation you can freeze the program 19:45:15 what one is that now again 19:45:24 closures and continuations 19:45:26 always mix them up 19:45:28 :/ 19:45:29 continuations are like TRDS only saner 19:45:42 ais523, ah no idea then 19:46:03 erlang got closures I think, but continuations... no idea 19:46:34 tusho, I guess JB_SP is some deprecated thing then 19:46:53 tusho, I found it... 19:46:55 /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-i386/archsetjmp.h:#define JB_SP __esp 19:46:55 /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-x86_64/archsetjmp.h:#define JB_SP __rsp 19:47:10 which is very wtf 19:47:11 :P 19:47:33 nothing in non-um arch either it seems 19:47:47 * AnMaster waits for grep to finish 19:48:03 nop 19:48:17 and um = user mode linux 19:48:52 tusho, doesn't really help at all 19:49:09 what does __esp do? 19:49:26 wait... is it actually manipulating the individual registers on the processor? 19:49:48 esp is a register yes 19:49:48 those defines are named after the stack pointer for x86 and x86_64 19:49:59 /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-i386/archsetjmp.h-#define JB_IP __eip 19:49:59 /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-i386/archsetjmp.h:#define JB_SP __esp 19:50:04 /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-x86_64/archsetjmp.h-#define JB_IP __rip 19:50:05 /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-x86_64/archsetjmp.h:#define JB_SP __rsp 19:50:11 from context grep 19:50:12 and 19:50:19 it doesn't occur outside user mode linux 19:50:33 how's egobot coming? 19:50:42 asiekierka, most likely "not at all" 19:51:07 thanks to broken lib 19:51:14 btw who owns the esolangs.org server? 19:51:20 AnMaster: graue 19:51:38 ais523, never seen that nick here 19:52:11 AnMaster: he doesn't come here often, although he tends to respond quickly to email when I email him about a server problem 19:52:17 ah 19:52:31 ais523, so who can put stuff up on the file archive and such on the server? 19:52:34 only him? 19:52:40 there were a few others, I think 19:52:52 no longer? 19:52:53 IIRC Keymaker had write access 19:53:01 again someone I never heard of 19:53:03 AnMaster: no idea, presumably they still have access 19:53:07 is there any link to a ckpt website in source code 19:53:09 AnMaster: you should have heard of Keymaker 19:53:13 ais523, nop 19:53:14 a website about ckpt 19:53:17 even a dead link 19:53:19 quite the prolific esolangers 19:53:24 s/s$// 19:53:33 asiekierka, tried google? 19:53:37 he wrote an Underload intepreter, and lots of other things, in Brainfuck 19:53:37 first hit it seems 19:53:50 tusho, maybe there is a newer version of the library? 19:54:09 "This software is no longer being maintained." 19:54:11 oh well 19:54:13 probably not 19:54:22 It was last updated april 13 2005 19:54:22 and is no longer maintained 19:54:22 ckpt runs on Linux 2.4 and 2.6 with (or without) the NPTL thread system (but it does not checkpoint programs that use threads). 19:54:27 there are notes for users of Debian woody and related version 19:54:35 and users of systems with exec-shield such as Fedora Core 2 19:54:52 ckpt currently does not work out of the box on systems that 19:54:52 have exec-shield installed. 19:54:55 Debian /woody/? 19:54:58 that was years ago... 19:54:59 # echo 0 > /proc/sys/kernel/exec-shield-randomize 19:55:01 ais523, yes... 19:55:05 that was the exec-shield workaround 19:55:11 so was fedora core 2 19:55:20 as root, you execute that 19:55:23 asiekierka, you know we can read too 19:55:25 .... 19:55:33 i just felt like it 19:55:44 stop the pointless spam 19:55:59 okay 19:57:52 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:58:37 tusho, I don't think you will have much luck with ego bot 19:58:52 why not AnMaster 19:58:56 I just need to find out what to define JB_SP to 19:59:08 tusho, see what I pasted above then 19:59:21 on 32-bit probably the rsp register 19:59:21 that's for user mode linux 19:59:25 tusho, true.... 19:59:51 ....but.... 20:00:47 -!- comex has joined. 20:02:08 hello 20:02:14 hi 20:02:30 how is you work going? 20:02:30 hi 20:02:39 i'm not translating my language description into english 20:02:44 then i'll let you see 20:03:22 LinuS: ? 20:03:34 ais523: i've developed an esoteric language 20:03:45 but description is in italian at the moment :) 20:03:49 ah 20:03:59 well if you link it I'll see how well babelfish does on it 20:04:31 one moment 20:04:38 i'm glad you're interested :) 20:04:47 ais523: it executes via irc servers 20:04:51 it uses ban flags as variables 20:05:03 tusho: what, IRP? 20:05:07 nay 20:05:08 mine 20:05:15 http://rafb.net/p/rgoM3S98.html 20:05:15 arguably it uses people's mental state as variables 20:05:58 -!- Hiato has joined. 20:06:43 the points of the language are not storing variables in his own memory but only use IRC resources and all the commands should be valid for the IRC protocol (a client sending them to a server) 20:07:03 looks interesting, it translated pretty well 20:07:08 that is, when the program is run the interpreter will "do" them into the selected irc server aswell 20:09:33 aww tusho 20:09:39 ofcourse i like it when you're talking 20:09:41 ::pet:: 20:09:49 i just prefer it when your mouth is doing other things 20:09:57 oh shut up psygnisfive 20:10:15 OH THE IRONY 20:13:21 hahaha 20:13:40 Here's an esoteric programming language: all statements are things such as "5. Statement 3 takes precedence over statement 8.", and the result of the program is a description of what takes precedence over what. 20:13:55 dogface_: get rid of my normish account, please 20:14:15 LinuS, it wouldn't be TC 20:14:23 as number of bans are limited on all ircds 20:14:47 dogface: i dont think that could computer anything 20:15:51 AnMaster oh i see 20:16:09 LinuS, unless you have some other form of *infinite* storage 20:16:12 tusho: did you somehow get one? 20:16:19 but isn't memory limited anyway on a pc? 20:16:21 dogface_: I was the second user... 20:16:33 As far as I can tell, you don't have a user on Normish. 20:16:35 LinuS, sure it is, but no implementation is TC 20:16:44 but you would limit yourself more than that 20:16:51 oh i see 20:16:56 Oh, a proposal to remove you more is in the works. 20:17:07 unless you make a special ircd with unlimited bans of course 20:17:28 that's not what i want to do, it'll work on every RFC-compliant ircds 20:17:40 LinuS, anyway it wouldn't be TC even in theory I think 20:17:55 well no luck then 20:18:00 LinuS: how do you do loops? 20:18:01 you need some other form of storage as well 20:18:10 ais523 the WHILE block 20:18:16 uses topic as condition 20:18:18 How's egobot 20:18:35 While block: TOPIC (condition) { } (there is no IF block because you can use the While one) 20:18:39 tusho, how is egobot coming along? 20:18:49 like in the power example 20:18:52 AnMaster: Not until I find out what to define JB_SP to. 20:19:10 tusho, try the same as for um, it may work 20:19:25 tusho: I suggest whatever the stack pointer is called in the compiler you're using 20:19:26 tusho, if it doesn't *shrug* 20:19:36 so __esp on 32-bit 20:19:38 ais523: k 20:19:50 have you got any suggestions, clues? 20:19:55 mem.c:294: error: '__esp' undeclared (first use in this function) 20:20:01 um 20:20:15 that seems strange 20:20:16 oh well 20:20:32 AnMaster: two things, firstly what do you see as the difference between events and breakpoints, secondly I think there should be events "standard/file IO happened" 20:20:46 Deewiant, good point about the second 20:20:59 Deewiant, and events doesn't stop interpreter do they? 20:21:04 while a break point does break 20:21:05 lmfao 20:21:06 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 20:21:10 theres an article in usatoday 20:21:12 an even just reports 20:21:12 AnMaster: the second isn't that important for the standard since you can just trace ,.&~ but for fingerprints it matters 20:21:15 about how kids today are getting high 20:21:17 and addicted 20:21:22 using DIGITAL DRUGS 20:21:24 like binaural music 20:21:25 Deewiant, yeah 20:21:32 ZOMG THE BINAURALS 20:21:47 AnMaster: okay, so how do you break on an event 20:21:51 register int __esp asm("esp"); 20:21:54 you need to declare it first 20:22:02 that's gcc-specific syntax for that, it seems 20:22:05 Deewiant, good pont 20:22:08 point* 20:22:19 AnMaster: BRK in 5.7.2 (btw typo, says BRKGEN at one point) has type 5: "break from change notification" 20:22:24 ais523: I could do register int JB_SP asm("esp") 20:22:26 AnMaster: which refers to an event 20:22:27 Deewiant, ah yes that is it 20:22:31 Deewiant, renamed thing 20:22:37 AnMaster: I think it should say "break from event" 20:22:51 AnMaster: (since not all events are necessarily change notifications) 20:22:57 Deewiant, I renamed it before 20:22:58 that is the issue 20:23:04 events got expanded 20:23:10 AnMaster: and anyway, how does one request to stop at event FOO for instance 20:23:30 indeed it needs to be expanded, as there was only one event before 20:23:34 AnMaster: it needs libdl 20:23:38 tusho: can you log out so we can delete you? 20:23:38 how can I get a 32-bit libdl? 20:23:44 dogface_: I am not logged in. 20:23:45 tusho, should be one in /lib32 20:23:51 tusho: don't log in again, then. 20:23:52 tusho: yes you are, w proves it 20:24:18 Deewiant, I'm looking now 20:24:41 now it wants libgcc 20:24:42 :| 20:24:45 00.00.0000 action An integer describing what should happen on the change being triggered: 20:24:46 • 0 indicates a change notification. 20:24:46 • 1 indicates a breakpoint. 20:24:51 Deewiant, there seem to be that 20:24:53 and such 20:24:54 AnMaster: where's that 20:24:59 how can I get a 32-bit libgcc 20:25:01 2.8.3 20:25:04 err 20:25:06 5.8.3 20:25:07 Deewiant, ^ 20:25:14 hmm 20:25:18 I have libgcc_s.so.1 20:25:30 so how's egobot now 20:25:41 Deewiant, every such type got a break point action it seems 20:25:44 asiekierka: shush 20:25:44 AnMaster: hmm, okay 20:26:13 AnMaster: maybe it should be a boolean and not integer, true if should break false if not (still 1 and 0 as now) 20:26:33 -!- MikeRiley has joined. 20:26:35 AnMaster: and maybe the CHG* should all start with EV as well as the others 20:27:18 Deewiant, yes it already does? 20:27:24 AnMaster: only the title 20:27:33 Deewiant, oops 20:27:35 typo then 20:27:45 fixed locally 20:27:59 i've translated the language description in english, if someone's interested 20:28:06 i am! 20:28:08 LinuS, sure 20:28:21 tusho, libgcc should be in /lib32 too 20:28:32 libgcc_s.so.1 is AnMaster 20:28:36 tusho, anyway gcc normally links it automatically 20:28:55 http://rafb.net/p/7hgQVs52.html 20:28:57 it just says skipping incompatible /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.2.3/libgcc.a when searching for -lgcc twice 20:28:59 then gives up 20:29:05 for 20:29:06 /usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/32/libgcc.a 20:29:07 gcc -Xlinker --script=restart.script -o restart restart.o mem.o util.o uri.o remote.o sockaddr.o wrapsafe.o elfrestart.o -ldl -L/usr/lib32 20:29:09 /usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/libgcc.a 20:29:14 I got those here 20:29:24 tusho, I guess something like that? 20:29:30 the 32 one probably 20:29:34 tusho, tried locate first? 20:29:36 i do not have a 32 bit libgcc.a AnMaster!!! 20:29:39 it helped me find it 20:29:46 tusho, I do in said location 20:29:50 /usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/32/libgcc.a 20:29:50 and I do not 20:29:58 tusho, it may be somewhere else on your system 20:30:01 because you must have it 20:30:10 it may be in a totally different place 20:30:11 ah tehre it is 20:30:21 /usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/4.3.1/libgcc.a 20:30:26 on my 32-bit arch 20:30:33 gcc -Xlinker --script=restart.script -o restart restart.o mem.o util.o uri.o remote.o sockaddr.o wrapsafe.o elfrestart.o -ldl -L/usr/lib32 -L/usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.2.3/32/lib 20:30:34 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:30:34 still fails 20:30:39 tusho, see! 20:30:47 it was just a case of changing compiler version 20:31:19 tusho, you are missing a -m32 20:31:21 on that line 20:31:23 let me also know if you notice some bad english 20:31:24 not very odd then 20:31:26 ^^ 20:31:42 tusho, you need -m32 for *all* calls to gcc 20:31:45 yes yes 20:32:05 * AnMaster reads LinuS paste 20:32:32 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:32:42 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:32:51 *Quits returning the 1 value (ok) to the system 20:32:52 QUIT 1 20:32:53 err 20:32:53 -!- Judofyr has joined. 20:33:01 that doesn't match *nix 20:33:20 i believe this one will unmatch more 20:33:20 QUIT "Now this is a nice language!" 20:33:22 LinuS, on Linux and also all other systems except VMS that I know about 0 is normal exit and 1 is bad 20:33:30 oh, indeed 20:33:33 if you mean exit code of program 20:33:41 yes, i forgot them 20:33:42 oh, VMS has it flipped? 20:33:49 LinuS, I think VMS however uses 1 for OK and 0 for bad 20:33:51 Deewiant, I think so 20:33:55 at least I read that I think 20:34:02 may have been some other platform 20:34:04 i wanted to write 0, it was a "typo" 20:34:12 what about returning a string to the system? 20:34:15 can i do it? 20:34:26 LinuS, well depends on what you want 20:34:29 not as a exit code 20:34:39 you could print it out at the end I guess 20:34:45 in the interpreter 20:34:53 or you could send a quit message on irc 20:35:22 yeah i'll threat the quit message as a comment, but i'll still send it to IRC 20:35:23 $ true; echo $?; false; echo $? 20:35:23 0 20:35:23 1 20:35:38 AnMaster: was that on VMS? 20:35:44 ais523, nop 20:35:46 it was on linux 20:35:49 and actually VMS uses odd for success, even for failed 20:35:49 I don't have any vms 20:35:50 ... 20:36:00 ais523, yeah I said it was reversed 20:36:14 AnMaster: well it has more than one success code 20:36:18 ok 20:36:28 and the C stdlib does weird stuff to translate exit codes 20:36:48 ais523, there is some #defines for "bad" and "good" exits iirc 20:36:57 EXIT_SUCCESS and EXIT_FAILURE 20:37:00 EXIT_SUCCESS is always 0 20:37:05 EXIT_FAILURE can vary though 20:37:08 (oh btw, I should have known you knew about weird systems!) 20:37:16 ais523, aren't they flipped on VMS then? 20:37:16 on VMS EXIT_SUCCESS is 0 and EXIT_FAILURE is some random large even number, I think 20:37:29 and exit() and return from main swap 0 and some random large odd number 20:37:34 -!- dogface has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:37:38 ok weird 20:37:39 and all other numbers are preserved unchanged 20:37:44 the C standard allows that behaviour 20:38:04 and that's why you can use 0 for successful exit but on non-posix should use EXIT_FAILURE for failed exit 20:38:12 (on posix you can use any non-zero for failed) 20:38:28 ais523, well... why is there EXIT_SUCCESS at all then? 20:38:33 symmetry I think 20:38:36 err 20:38:38 I see 20:38:40 now that i'm thinking 20:38:50 my language is interpreted 20:38:57 LinuS, yes of course 20:39:00 so well, i can't actually return anything to the system 20:39:03 just to the interpreter 20:39:17 LinuS, which can then return it to the system if it wants 20:39:26 q in befunge work like that 20:39:49 oh well, i'll think i'll just display the quit messagges on the interpreter console 20:39:52 :) 20:39:56 Actually EXIT_SUCCESS need not be 0; the standard says that you can signal a successful termination using either zero or EXIT_SUCCESS; so 0 always works, but EXIT_SUCCESS might be something else. 20:40:02 messages* 20:40:26 fizzie: ah yes, that's it, I don't think there were any implementations that had it non-zero though 20:40:28 ah well our other standard expert (fizzie) 20:41:07 I can't really think of any very sensible reasons to #define it non-zero, since they must anyway handle the 0 case. 20:41:15 anyway if someone ever need to ask about a weird system, just ask ais523, if it was made after 72, there is a good chance he know about it 20:41:16 yes 20:41:17 ;P 20:41:27 even before, on occasion 20:41:37 after all Baudot was invented in the 1800s 20:41:38 really? 20:41:42 ah true 20:41:47 ais523, and roman numerals! 20:41:55 I only know Baudot from INTERCAL, though 20:42:15 unlike most langs which are being updated to progressively newer technologies, INTERCAL is updated to progressively older technologies 20:42:27 hahah 20:42:40 well, have you got other clues or suggestions? 20:43:11 seems like this is the only place in which i can talk about this, other people tend not to understand me or tells me to stop wasting my time :p 20:43:23 Does INTERCAL have any instructions for operating a Babbage analytical engine? 20:43:34 LinuS, not really my type of language 20:43:57 why? is it too "simple"? 20:44:16 dogface_: not yet, but patches are welcome 20:48:16 lifthrasiir, nah 20:48:17 err 20:48:19 LinuS, ^ 20:48:22 mistab 20:48:23 sorry 20:48:33 gh 20:48:41 LinuS, I'm more into languages like befunge and such 20:49:05 i see :) 20:49:30 egobot's compilin' 20:49:32 LinuS: I like it 20:49:33 it's creative 20:49:35 your first? 20:49:35 tusho: wow 20:49:43 yes tusho 20:49:46 ais523: i had to fuck about with ckpt's makefile a lot 20:49:49 hopefully it works 20:49:59 LinuS: it reminds me of my study into incidental programmability 20:50:00 guh 20:50:03 I installed jikes-classpath 20:50:08 but it still can't do it 20:50:09 like when I wrote noughts-and-crosses in Paint 20:50:11 *** Semantic Error: You need to modify your classpath, sourcepath, bootclasspath, and/or extdirs setup. Jikes could not find package "java.lang" in: 20:50:11 . 20:50:20 aha 20:50:21 Java now? 20:50:26 I thought it was written in C 20:50:30 ais523: remember, egobot uses third-party interps 20:50:34 so it compiles them all 20:50:35 ah yes 20:50:37 and it's C++ 20:50:38 uhm ais523, you mean using piet? 20:50:43 C with Classes, in this case 20:50:46 LinuS: no 20:50:46 C with Classes badly, really 20:50:49 using the floodfill tool 20:50:49 or how did you write that on paint? 20:51:06 cd lazyk ; g++ -O2 -g lazy.cpp -o lazyk 20:51:06 lazy.cpp:66: error: 'operator new' takes type 'size_t' ('long unsigned int') as first parameter 20:51:08 lol wut 20:51:12 I rigged it up so that you could click with floodfill on various places 20:51:15 static void* operator new(unsigned) { 20:51:18 ah I see 20:51:20 * tusho changes 20:51:21 ooh i see :) 20:51:23 got it now 20:51:26 and it would mark your and its rules onto the board 20:51:31 s/rules/moves/ 20:51:33 it never lost either 20:51:37 but it always went first 20:51:38 ais523: i want that 20:51:42 ghc -O --make Main -o rhotor-hi 20:51:42 ./build.sh: 4: ghc: not found 20:51:46 egobot depends on ghc ahahahaha 20:51:48 tusho: I've sent it to you before 20:51:53 lol that's really kewl 20:52:09 I also did noughts-and-crosses in the Windows 3.1 help system 20:52:15 by using lots and lots of hyperlinks 20:52:21 and automatically generating all the possible grids 20:52:34 i don't know it, is it different from html pages? 20:52:36 winhelp was great, it had variables and everything 20:52:42 and it was a bit different 20:52:46 oh jesus christ 20:52:50 GreaseMonkey has made a third account 20:53:06 it took Word documents as input 20:53:08 can't he remember a goddamn password 20:53:13 and you specified commands using foornotes 20:53:18 however [[If you find some archaic license on any of these languages, disregard it. I don't care what you do with it anymore. I'd like to see it simply used as it should be. I am cleaning up all the licence crap now. --Ben Russell 05:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC) ]] 20:53:18 it was quite esoteric, really 20:53:22 so no more "Oerjan fucked with it" I guess 20:53:43 it's the only programming lang I've ever come across which used a rich-text source 20:54:03 section breaks to separate pages, and footnotes for things like onload scripts 20:54:09 you did links using underlines and hidden text 20:54:12 !!! EGOBOT JUST COMPILED !!! 20:54:14 wholly shit 20:55:05 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:55:38 hmm 20:55:39 -!- MikeRiley has quit ("Leaving"). 20:55:43 now to figure out the arcane netcat construction it uses 20:56:09 netcat? What lang is EgoBot written in anyway (the core, not the third-party interps)? 20:56:36 -!- IdBot has joined. 20:56:36 A C-oid, isn't it? 20:56:39 hi IdBot 20:56:39 !help 20:56:40 !help 20:56:43 mmf 20:57:05 -!- IdBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:57:27 -!- IdBot has joined. 20:57:29 !help 20:57:33 :| 20:57:36 lol 20:57:39 !bf +. 20:57:42 tusho: is the command prefix ! by default? 20:57:42 !bf8 +[+.] 20:57:42 !say hi 20:57:47 ais523: it isn't configurable 20:57:48 so yes :P 20:57:53 -!- IdBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:58:00 what should the bot do? 20:58:02 How did you get it to be IdBot? 20:58:02 at least it's joining 20:58:06 LinuS: interpret esolangs 20:58:10 :tusho!n=ehird@91.105.83.185 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help 20:58:12 EgoBot used to be a major feature of this channel 20:58:13 it's alive, then 20:58:26 I remember when I got 3 of the bots here to form an infinite loop 20:58:28 interpret esolangs? how many? :O 20:58:30 of sending commands to each other 20:58:33 Twentyabouts. 20:58:33 LinuS: 20 or so 20:58:33 LinuS: like 20 20:58:37 hahahaha 20:58:37 * dogface_ wins 20:58:44 no 20:58:44 I did 20:58:45 :P 20:58:47 oh my god, wonderful 20:58:48 dogface_: I won at my end 20:58:50 :P 20:58:55 ais523 beat tusho. 20:58:55 ais523 beat dogface_ though 20:58:56 * LinuS 's autojoining the channel 20:58:58 we'll just have to check the logs, I suppose 20:59:06 at least both of you think I beat the other 20:59:15 dogface_ beat tusho over here 20:59:19 Yay. :-P 20:59:43 Ah. 20:59:45 EgoBot segfaults. 20:59:46 abotu 20 20:59:48 *about 20:59:50 I bet it's that pesky ckpt, ais523 20:59:59 oklopol: fourth place isn't bad. 21:00:05 oklopol: heh 21:00:11 ah of course 21:00:14 optbot: meet IdBot 21:00:15 ais523: tusho, there are 12-year-olds in here. 21:00:15 I need to compile them all as 32 bit don't I 21:00:21 optbot: stop that! 21:00:21 ais523: It's BIZARRO ESOTERIC 21:00:26 since ckpt is 21:00:27 :\ 21:00:35 tusho: please comment on my joke so i can repeat it! 21:00:40 oklopol: no, I'm busy 21:00:42 * kicks optbot (trolling) 21:00:42 ais523: Is this transferrable? If I get aard to worship me, will your aard worships be transferred to me too? 21:00:55 wow 21:00:58 ais523: that's from 2002 21:01:00 i remember 21:01:03 reading fizzie's logs 21:01:11 what were they talking about in 2002? 21:01:13 apart from that? 21:01:14 aard of course refers to H. Founder and FALSE creator 21:01:16 Aardappel 21:01:21 ais523: how much the channel was dead. 21:01:28 well it isn't dead nowadays 21:01:32 ais523: and Life In Genearl 21:01:34 it's been going strong for several years now 21:01:35 so no, not just esolangs 21:01:37 *General 21:01:37 Does "H." mean he's a player of Agora? 21:01:42 dogface_: No, it means he's Honorable. 21:03:07 Okay, what would the little tune in this comic sound like: http://www.theclassm.com/d/19990826.html 21:04:30 Didn't Load 21:04:53 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:08:03 Great. 21:08:06 Egobot is segfaulting. 21:08:09 bsmntbombdood: ping 21:08:19 tusho: as it probably would be if you were messing around with the stack, like it sounds like it does 21:08:27 ais523: I got rid of ckpt,. 21:10:44 wut 21:12:03 bsmntbombdood: want bsmnt_bot. 21:12:05 egobot is teh fux 21:16:27 Hmm. 21:18:17 bsmntbombdood: plzz0r 21:18:18 :P 21:20:15 bsmnt_bot-like thing is coming. 21:21:07 dogface_: What? 21:21:10 I asked for bsmnt_bot. 21:21:12 From bsmntbombdood. 21:21:19 * dogface_ relearns regexes 21:21:33 dogface_: bsmnt_bot executed arbitary python and that's how we added esolangs. 21:21:36 Are you going to go and sandbox it? 21:21:45 Have fun with that. I think asking bsmntbombdood for it will be quicker. 21:21:47 He replied earlier. 21:21:59 tusho: e chrooted it, I think 21:22:32 ais523: Yes. ihope seems to be reimplementing bsmnt_bot on the spot. 21:22:42 Either I'll have it from bsmntbombdood way before he's done, 21:22:52 or it'll be incredibly insecure and I can wipe ihope's system with one line on IRC, 21:22:56 or it won't be extensible 21:22:57 The latter. 21:23:06 And the lattest. 21:23:08 (and thus the list of esolangs will be restricted) 21:23:17 (whereas it was one of the best things about bsmnt_bot) 21:23:18 dogface_: seriously, don't put something there that allows your computer to be wiped with one line of IRC 21:23:21 dogface_: Then it's not "bsmnt_bot". 21:23:23 or someone here will probably do it 21:23:23 I won't. 21:23:24 It's "a random IRC bot". 21:23:26 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:23:30 Well, it will be extensible, I guess. 21:23:38 dogface_: With Python code to add a handler? 21:23:41 Hope you secure that well. 21:23:50 what would be amusing would be if you hacked into tusho's computer and got it to run there, then tusho wiped eir own computer with one line of IRC 21:23:55 :-) 21:23:57 but I doubt that will ahppen 21:24:04 -!- Judofyr has joined. 21:24:06 hacking is impossible. 21:24:06 Actually, that's exactly what I'm planning. 21:24:08 ais523: Like I run things as high-privileged users. 21:24:16 i don't believe in it 21:25:28 bsmntbombdood: ping 21:27:50 My bot wouldn't be nearly as good as bsmnt_bot. 21:28:04 I don't suppose anyone other than me has a copy of it handy. 21:28:20 You have bsmnt_bot? 21:28:22 Well, then give me it! 21:28:32 I -have- been trying to get it from bsmntbombdood for hours... 21:29:35 Okay. 21:29:48 Just want about three... no, five moments. 21:30:29 bsmntbombdood: let me butt your sex 21:30:36 this'll sure wake him up. 21:33:31 dogface_: the comic opened! 21:33:45 not that i have any idea what you asked about it 21:33:48 ihope? reimplimenting bsmnt_bot?!?! 21:33:51 impossible! 21:33:56 there can be no replacement 21:34:05 that bot is a marvel of engineering 21:34:21 bsmntbombdood: gimme 21:34:22 it :( 21:34:30 we need it! 21:34:35 it's just one file of python, sheesh 21:35:12 bsmntbombdood: is it a trade secret or something 21:35:16 I mean I downloaded it on the other box 21:35:18 I COULD go and get it 21:35:19 it's just one file of python, sheesh 21:35:21 see? i woke him up 21:35:21 lololol 21:35:21 but that would be annoying 21:35:30 the setup is actually really complicated 21:35:36 bsmntbombdood: it's a chroot running one file of python. 21:35:41 oklopol: I asked what that tune would sound like? 21:35:43 I know, blahbot` ran on it. 21:36:05 dogface_: 0.330.3.7.523.0. assuming the fifth note is 1/4 in length 21:36:05 i don't have it 21:36:10 looks like 1/2, but that makes less sense. 21:36:28 tusho: wait one moment and ask again. 21:36:34 dogface_: (one moment) bsmnt_bot please. 21:37:01 tusho: did you wait one moment? 21:37:04 -!- tusho has left (?). 21:37:07 -!- tusho has joined. 21:37:08 yes 21:37:21 Okay. 21:38:10 File with bsmnt is not existed. Sorry. 21:38:26 basically we have the rhythm theme |.|||.|., repeated two times, first time going up, then back down, jumps around in thirds, first and second third from 0 to 3, then we quickly play 7, and come back down with thirds again 21:38:35 dogface_: what generates that sort of error? 21:38:42 ais523: me. 21:38:45 ais523: ihope-speecherizer. 21:38:59 it sounds like the sort of thing INTERCAL would come up with if it did file I/O 21:39:00 0 .|||.|. 7 .|||.|. 21:39:11 if i turned off nicks on irc, I could still distinguish oklopol, ais523, psygnisfive and ihope. 21:39:22 How do you turn off nicks on irc? 21:39:23 as a change from the normal snarky message there's at least one with broken English instead 21:39:23 well i'm trivial 21:39:29 as is dogface_ 21:39:31 dogface_: Remove them from my template. 21:39:32 oklopol! :D 21:39:34 he's even easier 21:39:39 psygnisfive :DDDDDD 21:39:44 ::pounce:: 21:39:46 <3you 21:39:49 psygnisfive is also trivial as we can see 21:39:53 tusho: there are others who are easily distinguishable too 21:39:56 how was boyscouting? 21:39:57 and I've talked to ais523 that i can easily detect him 21:39:57 I think I have a distinctive habit of using both capital letters and periods. 21:40:06 where are my pictures of you in boyscout short shorts? 21:40:09 psygnisfive: that was ages ago, but it was okay 21:40:10 I wouldn't be able to distinguish fizzie and lament 21:40:13 most of the time 21:40:14 except for this one retarded kid 21:40:19 I could distinguish AnMaster 21:40:22 probably not Deewiant 21:40:29 dogface_: I do sometimes, but normally I adhere to the IRC custom of no full stop at the end of a line nor capital letter at the start of a line. 21:40:45 sometimes I write two sentences on a line. When I do it looks like this, which is strange 21:40:51 tusho, ? 21:41:02 AnMaster: talking about who we could distinguish on IRC if we didn't display nicknames 21:41:05 AnMaster: we were discussing how to tell who said what when nicks were turned off 21:41:10 ais523: I type like this. sometimes like this 21:41:13 Occasionally, even like this. 21:41:16 ais523, ah 21:41:20 tusho: could you recognise optbot, do you think? 21:41:21 ais523: although the numbers are sometimes different 21:41:31 sometimes even like this, and i sometimes even say I although generally i go back to I sometime in the sentence if i do that 21:41:46 if im very lazy ill abstain from all punctuation whatsoever 21:41:58 nah, I normally leave apostrophes in except for typos 21:42:00 posix_fadvise_fast() 21:42:01 ;P 21:42:05 and I use commas and semicolons more than other people 21:42:07 easy to pick me out ;P! 21:42:08 most importantly, though, my typing style adapts to those who are around me. 21:42:10 i like to write long obscure messages 21:42:14 if someone types a certain way, I do too after a while 21:42:17 until I'm comfortable with them 21:42:19 tusho, ^ 21:42:21 when I pick up my own style of the momen 21:42:24 Sgeo would be easy too, you look for who types about nomic and PSOX 21:42:24 ^ not an example of which, sadly 21:42:37 tusho, posix_fadvise_fast()! 21:42:38 ;P 21:42:41 oklopol has a habit of being crazily concise 21:42:50 and cryptic 21:42:51 and packing loads of info along with loads of punctuation diagrams into one message 21:43:02 siltweaaabidnbncui 21:43:02 that while incredibly comprehensive are hard to read 21:43:14 ais523: asaufabcaufonasuchg 21:43:15 tusho, I could pick out MikeReily anywhere 21:43:22 I want to be incredibly consise. 21:43:22 AnMaster: i couldn't,,,,ehehehehhee... 21:43:29 tusho, hahah! :P 21:43:29 pretty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ecliptic_path.jpg 21:43:37 hi lament 21:43:44 dogface_: so do I, I think it's an acquired skill 21:43:46 and thanks for linking the image correctly 21:43:46 oklopol is the only one who 21:43:51 consistently manages to do it in here 21:43:54 tusho, how would you pick me out? 21:43:58 AnMaster: got 21:44:04 tusho, well any other ways? 21:44:10 Is this incredibly concise? 21:44:12 AnMaster: general awkward sentence structure :P 21:44:14 dogface_: no 21:44:19 This? 21:44:20 tusho, I got bad English? 21:44:21 that bad? 21:44:27 :( 21:44:27 AnMaster: not exactly, it's just nonidiomatic 21:44:28 no 21:44:30 your english is very good 21:44:33 thanks 21:44:35 just non-idiomatic, like ais523 said :P 21:44:36 apart from got/have 21:44:37 you tend to use different constructions from native English people 21:44:38 anmaster where you from? 21:44:40 hi ais523 21:44:40 ah 21:44:43 psygnisfive, Sweden 21:44:46 ah. 21:44:49 right. 21:44:57 what got/have swap do you do? 21:44:58 o 21:45:06 AnMaster: tusho, I got bad English? <<< intended to make a joke? :D 21:45:08 psygnisfive: 'the standard got some issues' 21:45:12 oklopol: i hope so :) 21:45:12 psygnisfive, general issue of saying "got" instead of "have" 21:45:14 oh 21:45:16 oklopol, yes it was so this time 21:45:21 actually that's almost ok 21:45:29 you just need an extra have in there. 21:45:35 psygnisfive: has 21:45:36 "the standard has got some issues" 21:45:37 has got some issues 21:45:37 and I don't have why I say got instead 21:45:39 err I mean got 21:45:40 ;P 21:45:40 even then it's still awkawrd 21:45:42 or "i have got bad english" 21:45:52 but mainly you'd contract it 21:45:53 'have got' is grating 21:45:57 "i've got" 21:46:03 or "the standard's got" 21:46:18 i've bad englishes 21:46:23 is how i'd say it 21:46:35 I tend to typo a lot but I also tend to correct it before sending it to IRC 21:46:38 unless the typo is particularly amusing 21:46:41 no hablas espanol 21:46:43 infact, i dare say that saying "have" in such situations would sound quite awkward in american english 21:46:52 ais523: navigating in single-line text is my enemy 21:46:59 because while I hate using the keyboard to pinpoint an error a while back, 21:47:03 tusho: I correct immediately after typing the typo 21:47:03 i can't use the mouse for such a small thing 21:47:08 psygnisfive: tusho's point exactly 21:47:09 ais523: I don't notice, often 21:47:16 ais523: navigating in single-line text is my enemy <-- eh? 21:47:16 however, I often type 'm', backspace then 'o' 21:47:17 tusho: get used to control-arrow if you want to do single-line navigation 21:47:21 I start off the first two or so letters rwong 21:47:23 oklopol: actually the opposite of his point, which was that "Got" is awkward 21:47:25 ais523: opt-arrow 21:47:26 but even so 21:47:27 it's tedious 21:47:30 whereas i mean to say "have" would be awkward 21:47:32 tusho: ah, Mac 21:47:38 "the standard has some issues" <- weird 21:47:46 psygnisfive: weird? 21:47:47 especially with adverbs 21:47:47 hardly 21:47:48 psygnisfive: my point exactly! 21:47:50 is control on a Mac like Super on Linux 21:47:50 aha 21:47:53 "the standard still has some issues" 21:47:59 ais523: no 21:47:59 as in, hardly ever used except by a few dedicated programs? 21:47:59 I prefer British English 21:48:03 i have a hard time following the ways of the world atm :D 21:48:04 "the standard's still got some issues" 21:48:06 but I'm on too many IRC channels 21:48:08 better 21:48:15 where American English is used 21:48:20 you're exceeding my reading speed. 21:48:20 but this is a difference between american english and british english 21:48:23 I guess it influenced me 21:48:25 AnMaster: I'm British but normally end up typing in a weird mix of British and American 21:48:41 british english uses "to have" more extensively than american english 21:48:48 "I'm sorry, I haven't a clue" 21:48:57 which is pretentious to american ears 21:48:59 ais523, I also end up with a mix, I try to make a point of using ou instead of o in colour and such, but I often end up using z instead of s 21:49:06 'night 21:49:08 "I'm sorry, I haven't got a clue" is more appropriate 21:49:12 I've ended up using both color and colour in the same sentence before 21:49:14 and night mony 21:49:18 thx :) 21:49:19 american english much prefers "have got" to "have" 21:49:20 psygnisfive, blergh american! 21:49:20 i ain't a clue 21:49:33 and night mony <--?? 21:49:39 in american english, it seems "have" is become just an indicator of perfective aspect 21:49:40 'night 21:49:52 psygnisfive, I have a car or I got a car? 21:50:00 I don't have or got a car btw 21:50:01 I have a car is correct English 21:50:08 but I don't have one either 21:50:08 i never say color 21:50:10 actually thats more acceptable 21:50:18 tusho: I've programmed in too many langs that spell it color 21:50:22 but the second would have to be "i've got a car" 21:50:26 well I don't say colour or color, I say färg 21:50:27 :P 21:50:28 although refreshingly Allegro uses British English 21:50:34 I *write* colour 21:50:35 :P 21:50:48 ais523: I bet gecko aliases colour->color 21:50:51 because it must be pretty common 21:50:59 quite possibly 21:51:08 actually I think Allegro has #defines for American spellings 21:51:09 i kind of dislike that though 21:51:11 since it won't work in anything else 21:51:12 but the british ones are used internally 21:51:15 it's just promoting a habit that doesn't exist 21:51:17 American English prefers "have got" to plain old "have"? 21:51:19 because before they implemented that 21:51:20 nobody would use it 21:51:22 reminds me of mysql ANALYSE vs. ANALYZE 21:51:22 beacuse it wouldn't work 21:51:26 I thought that was British English that did that. 21:51:26 tusho: did you know that colour->color spelling changes were actually intentionally introduced by Webster with the intent of making a distinctly american dialect? 21:51:32 psygnisfive: Yes. 21:51:34 Fuck Webster. 21:51:48 AnMaster: that was just awful, I haven't told them yet, I wonder if anyone else has noticed? 21:51:50 dogface_: i'd say they prefer "'ve got". 21:51:55 dogface_: all i know is, there seem to be many cases where "have" is unacceptable for possession 21:51:56 ais523, tell them 21:52:05 "'ve" is a separate verb in american english, clearly 21:52:17 oklopol: maybe :) 21:52:25 just like "was like" is a separate verb in modern English teenage slang, and one that sounds terrible 21:52:27 who is Webster? 21:52:29 its either a verbal clitic, or something else 21:52:35 perfective clitic maybe 21:52:35 AnMaster: made a famous dictionary 21:52:36 something 21:52:38 ah 21:52:40 i know what program i want to write! 21:52:47 ais523: when I was younger I despised teenage slang 21:52:47 lament, oh? 21:52:52 a curses-based constellation map! 21:52:52 somehow "dude" has creeped into my vocabulary 21:52:57 tusho: do you still despise it? 21:53:01 ais523, anyway how are my sentences non-ideomatic? 21:53:03 ais523: yes 21:53:03 psygnisfive: can you give an example? 21:53:04 and "dude" is outdated teenage slang 21:53:08 err 21:53:10 idiomatic 21:53:11 dogface_: example of? 21:53:13 ais523: true, it should be homie 21:53:13 :P 21:53:22 lament, nice one 21:53:25 i mostly use it as "dude..." though 21:53:25 psygnisfive: a case where "have" is unacceptable for possession. 21:53:28 as in a "i cannot believe this" 21:53:37 AnMaster: looking up, you have more of a tendency than other people to write noun phrases as a line by themselves 21:54:00 tusho, well any other ways? 21:54:06 ais523, eh? You mean breaking the line in the middle on irc, that is because otherwise I can't keep up 21:54:09 that's one example of non-idiomaticness 21:54:09 ais523 said "made a famous dictionary" without a subject to it. 21:54:10 dogface_: no one says "i have a car", you say "i's like a car and shit" 21:54:14 dogface_: i gave examples above. as i said, "the standard has some problems" sounds more akward than "the standard's got some problems" 21:54:22 and modifiers make it worse. 21:54:24 AnMaster: I mean without the rest of the sentence 21:54:28 ais523, tusho, well any other ways? <-- what would a native say? 21:54:32 dogface_: that's a verb phrase 21:54:37 AnMaster: "any other ways?" :P 21:54:38 tho its not completely awkward. but "got" sounds more natural to me 21:54:48 "are there any other ways" or just "any other ways" 21:54:56 tusho, you mean just drop the "well"? 21:54:56 "well" without a comma at the start of a sentence is strange 21:54:59 psygnisfive: I guess I have little preferece. 21:55:00 AnMaster: yes 21:55:03 ais523, and that , was a typo 21:55:07 even "well, any other ways" would be more common 21:55:07 the , was there 21:55:10 ah 21:55:12 just failed to hit the keyu 21:55:13 key* 21:55:17 oh, and people hate me on irc 21:55:18 dogface_: maybe. anyway, obviously tusho's dialect forbids "got" 21:55:21 but I don't see "well" written that often at the start of a sentence nowadays 21:55:22 because I do stream-of-conciousness lines 21:55:23 like this 21:55:24 tusho, that is correct 21:55:31 ;P 21:55:42 I think it stems from an urge I've always had to beat people giving incorrect information 21:55:44 tusho, and I do such lines too sometimes 21:55:47 so I try and get it in before that 21:55:50 subconcious now though 21:55:54 ah yes 21:55:59 I wonder what the record for keeping up a stream of conciousness is on IRC? 21:56:03 I got the same tendency 21:56:04 "Excuse me, have you got a . . ." seems pretty British. 21:56:04 I think 21:56:11 I imagine there are some people who can keep one going for hours 21:56:12 i usually start my sentences with "err" 21:56:18 regardless of what goes on in the rest of the channel 21:56:20 dogface_: yes but thats a different reason 21:56:20 ais523: me, at 45 lines unbroken? 21:56:21 ais523, hahah 21:56:23 ais523: well, I planned this sentence in advance 21:56:28 and now I am writing this one on the spot 21:56:34 dogface_: when did you do that? 21:56:34 in american english itd obviously be 21:56:38 "do you have a ..." 21:56:42 by this i *always* mean to imply anything other people may have said earlier is wrong, and erroneous 21:56:44 ais523: the first time or the second? :-P 21:56:47 either 21:56:51 I'd like to see it 21:56:51 also, whenever I look at my irc client I always find myself having loads 21:56:52 and loads 21:56:55 of lines just by me 21:56:56 so theres clearly some other stuff going on beyond just got-have alternation 21:56:57 and like 2-3 of others 21:56:58 my record is 10 or so, I think 21:56:59 and it makes me feel weird 21:57:01 Why don't I just give a demonstration? :-) 21:57:07 theres illocutionary point or whatever 21:57:10 telling the channel about a new esolang even though nobody was listening 21:57:20 oklopol, I use "err" to mark "wtf" or "hey, wait, that..." 21:57:26 dogface_: because the chance of getting the rest of #esoteric to shut up while you do it is quite low at the moment 21:57:35 * dogface_ nods 21:57:46 I'll have to do it in #lobby. 21:57:57 tusho: i've filled pages with just myself even writing slow and long lines. 21:58:01 ais523, any other non-idiomatic examples from me? 21:58:09 oklopol: let 21:58:10 's do that 21:58:12 in fact I think I'll do that 21:58:16 iwthout the slow and long bit 21:58:20 I mean I am just so awesome, right? 21:58:20 hmm. 21:58:24 I wonder ... 21:58:26 new esolang ideas... 21:58:29 well, something involving TRDS 21:58:33 I always thought that could work well standalone 21:58:34 But what? 21:58:34 the key is to speak about something no one cares about, just obscurely enough that people don't ask me what the fuck i'm talking about 21:58:38 BF+TRDS isn't very interesting... 21:58:39 Hm. 21:58:45 oklopol: that's what I do all the time. 21:58:46 err 21:58:50 *just sanely enough 21:59:05 ais523, what languages apart from English do you know? 21:59:12 Have you ever heard me talk about alternative tunings in #music? 21:59:14 23:57… AnMaster: oklopol, I use "err" to mark "wtf" or "hey, wait, that..." <<< yes, so do i, forgot my joke tag 21:59:27 AnMaster: well, I know C 21:59:29 and ruby 21:59:31 AnMaster: just English, I have a GCSE in Latin but that isn't really enough to "know" it 21:59:31 and python 21:59:33 and ... 21:59:39 and lots of programming langs of course 21:59:45 oh you mean natural languages 21:59:49 nope, I have/got nothing 21:59:56 tusho: it's "have" 21:59:58 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:00:00 in that sentence 22:00:03 ais523: i was making a joke 22:00:09 tusho: so was I 22:00:19 I thought it would be funny to correct you for once rather than AnMaster 22:00:22 oklopol, hah 22:00:25 well night all 22:00:30 night AnMaster 22:00:36 23:55… AnMaster: tusho, and I do such lines too sometimes <<< i'd say "doing" lines is non-idiomatic 22:00:58 unless you're rehearsing for a play or somehting 22:00:59 oklopol: agreed 22:00:59 dunno 22:01:01 *something 22:01:02 oklopol, um, I consider line a first class object with the operator do ;P 22:01:03 eat -> 22:01:05 j/k 22:01:26 AnMaster: well i'd use that too, but i don't usually care if i'm non-idiomatic, just sharing my feelings. 22:01:31 hmm 22:01:35 eatance -> 22:01:39 (esobable btw) 22:01:47 ok 22:01:55 eatance? 22:01:56 :P 22:03:03 night really now 22:03:11 night 22:03:18 night 22:03:21 o 22:03:22 psygnisfive: the act of eating 22:03:30 :p 22:03:34 "eating" is the act of eating. :) 22:04:10 oh! right! thank you language wizard! 22:04:32 :p 22:04:55 um 22:05:01 night AnMaster 22:05:23 eatance is obviously the "essence" of performing eating 22:05:33 niggt 22:05:36 night* 22:05:39 or if you're german 22:05:45 "essence" is already the essence of eating :) 22:06:40 eh? 22:06:40 "das essen" is the essence of eating in german. :) 22:06:41 what? 22:06:54 that makes no sense 22:06:56 essen means eating in german. or something. 22:07:12 ah 22:07:19 essence :D 22:07:19 essen = eat, fressen = eat if you're an animal, messen = measure 22:07:23 well I'm Swedish 22:07:29 and I really need to sleep 22:07:33 whats swedish for "eating"? 22:07:40 to eat = äta 22:07:48 we don't have the -ing form 22:07:48 ätance 22:07:54 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire..."). 22:07:56 das essen = the eating? 22:08:02 and ance makes no sense 22:08:08 thats not the point, anmaster 22:08:15 olsner, sounds like a movie tittle 22:08:24 psygnisfive, c is rather rare in Swedish 22:08:27 we prefer k 22:08:28 eating ~= tande 22:08:35 olsner, better 22:08:42 though not exactly same form 22:08:52 as we don't have -ing form really 22:09:11 olsner, also what language 22:09:17 no, but I think it corresponds to one of the possible meanings of the -ing form at least 22:09:20 ätande? 22:09:23 in bash ~= is regex match 22:09:26 isn't that -ing 22:09:32 in some cases that is 22:09:40 AnMaster: think wavy-equals-sign 22:09:49 oh 22:09:49 olsner, ah 22:09:53 use the unicode symbol 22:09:55 olsner said that already 22:09:58 maybe tilde-backspace-equals would do it in ebcdic :D 22:10:00 ~= usually means "roughly equal to" 22:10:17 which either means me or my subconscious is a stinking liar, or that i rock at swedish 22:10:21 psygnisfive, for me it means bash regex match :P 22:10:29 in MQL it means pseudoregex 22:10:46 oklopol, gör du det? vad trevligt 22:11:12 oklopol: you're finnish, right? so it's no surprise you have some command of swedish 22:11:35 kanske kan vi bilda the hemliga svenska säskapet om esoteriska programmeringsspråk?! 22:11:43 ;) 22:11:54 eller bättre 22:12:00 olsner: finnish people hate swedish, that's the official status 22:12:16 Hemliga svenska esoteriska programmeringssälskapet 22:12:20 AnMaster: finland has a greater percentage here 22:12:26 olsner, vad tycker du? 22:12:30 oklopol, aww :/ 22:12:32 slskap <3 22:12:35 Deewiant, you, who else? 22:12:37 oklopol, haha 22:12:53 olsner, I vilken betydelse? 22:12:56 ;P 22:13:06 psygnisfive, what is MQL? 22:13:13 Metaweb Query Language 22:13:20 oklopol, depends on where in Finland 22:13:26 what about Torvalds? 22:13:35 a way of querying a Freebase-style database using JSON 22:13:38 psygnisfive, hm and what is "metaweb"? 22:13:44 metaweb is a company :) 22:13:49 AnMaster: what? 22:13:57 greater percentage on this channel, and fizzie 22:14:08 also others but not online atm 22:14:12 hrrm 22:14:21 oklopol, oh well 22:14:22 AnMaster: noterade bara din felstavning... sl + skap = slskap... vilket borde betyda ngonting i stil med "egenskapen att vara en sl" 22:14:24 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:14:33 unless torvalds was a LinuS joke 22:14:35 olsner, oh 22:14:36 :D 22:14:47 olsner, ingen svensk stavningskontroll 22:14:48 :P 22:14:53 oklopol, eh? 22:15:01 -!- Judofyr has joined. 22:15:02 AnMaster: long story. 22:15:06 oklopol, Torvalds speak Swedish iirc 22:15:10 stavning? typing? 22:15:19 oklopol, stavning == spelling 22:15:25 so spellchecker 22:15:27 err well yes 22:15:43 ah right. 22:15:44 oklopol, iirc Torvalds is finlandssvensk 22:15:48 or whatever it is called 22:16:05 but thatis just iirc 22:16:05 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:16:05 i was thinking more like spelling police, so had to check. 22:16:21 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 22:16:38 oh no the spelling police is out underlining words in red!!!!!!! 22:16:40 ;) 22:16:45 haha 22:16:46 if there was a spelling police, spell checks and spellcheckers is what they would have 22:17:33 oklopol, Sälarnas sällskap för sälskap? 22:17:34 ;P 22:17:36 err 22:17:37 olsner, ^ 22:17:40 wrong nick 22:17:50 hihi 22:18:09 olsner, borde låta mer formelt hrrm 22:18:21 oh well 22:49:50 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection reset by peer). 22:50:08 -!- oklopol has joined. 23:01:58 http://pastebin.com/m29548d1d 23:02:10 big dipper on the left, cassiopeia on the right, polaris in the middle 23:02:28 lament: ASCII-art stars? 23:02:35 or is that a new constellation-based esolang? 23:02:45 haha 23:03:23 now if i pick a bunch of cool dots from unicode, i could make this look passable 23:04:00 one problem is, i suppose you can't really guess the aspect ratio 23:04:58 one thing i actually want to have 23:05:02 lament: use curses to animate it 23:05:05 is a realistic planetarium 23:05:06 then it should be clear 23:05:23 by realistic i mean "looks the way the sky actually does" 23:05:38 probably impossible, though 23:05:46 aww 23:06:07 (without a hemispherical display, anyway) 23:10:04 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1""). 23:13:52 lament: lmfao you're insane. :) 23:14:48 psygnisfive: Yeah, I bet he goes to channels about esoteric programming languages. 23:15:01 man, if he does, he's DEFINITELY insane 23:22:27 tusho: i would never do such a thing 23:22:39 lament: Good. 23:22:44 I prefer channels like this. 23:22:51 Gay sex is a far less insane topic. 23:22:58 gay sex is natural. 23:23:29 lament how old are you again? 23:23:56 old enough that you won't rape me. 23:24:03 90? D: 23:24:08 lament is 2something isn't he 23:24:11 or early 30s 23:24:16 i am probably totally wrong 23:24:17 :D 23:24:29 psygnisfive: would you rape me if i were 89? 23:24:36 no. :p 23:25:05 lament: so how old are you actually 23:25:10 23 23:25:25 ah so you're a year older than me 23:25:39 and twice as wise 23:25:56 and 10x more mature :P 23:25:56 lol 23:26:01 which doesn't mean lament is mature 23:26:05 so much as psygnisfive ... isn't 23:26:16 lament, are you gonna take that shit form tusho? saying you're not mature? 23:26:28 psygnisfive: Yes. Yes he is. 23:26:56 psygnisfive: No. In fact, I'm going to ban him right away. 23:27:05 D: 23:29:23 lament: you're slow 23:29:35 tusho: slowness comes with maturity 23:29:45 lament: how long until my ban? 23:29:46 3 months? 23:30:05 if you're lucky! 23:31:13 lament: what is the latest possible date 23:31:41 January 19 23:31:54 lament: i hope you remember that 23:32:02 ...2038 23:32:22 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:32:28 lament: computers won't exist then 23:32:30 GASP 23:32:30 nor will humans 23:32:35 it'll be one big glob of singularity! 23:32:36 19 JAN 2038?! 23:32:39 THE END!!! 23:32:52 i wonder if the singularity will run on unix 23:32:54 surely not 23:32:57 probably lisp or haskell 23:33:40 The singularity will actually first be achieved in a COBOL compiler. 23:33:48 psygnisfive: Worse is better. 23:33:57 Unix is a bunch of decentralized, tiny, flowing nodes. 23:34:00 intercal! 23:34:02 This will mean that everything will be written in COBOL, and computers will use COBOL for data storage. 23:34:07 we can program the singularity in intercal! 23:34:07 Unified into one task. 23:34:11 That is basically what a singularity is, is it not? 23:34:13 unix is a series of tubes. 23:34:19 tusho: no. 23:34:40 its not a dumptruck, its a series of pipes! 23:35:14 The Singularity is actually a lot more like an event horizon than a singularity. 23:35:22 dogface: its both! :o 23:35:43 an event horizon, in that its hard to see beyond it 23:36:00 but a singularity is that the models break down in it 23:36:09 No, it's an event horizon in that once you go past it, there's no going back. 23:36:27 dogface_: well, we don't know that as such 23:36:41 Actually, we could even call it something like the technological escape speed. 23:36:43 -!- alexbobp has joined. 23:37:10 (I don't like the term "escape velocity" because it implies that direction is important. A space shuttle pointed straight down would be just as effective, if Earth didn't get in the way.) 23:37:51 so "escape speed" then? 23:38:05 dogface_: "escape velocity" is non-compositional. :P 23:38:13 "escape speed" sounds like a custom drug 23:38:19 lol 23:38:51 so who thinks it would be a good idea to make a bot that implements a simple functional language, and allows anybody to upload and run arbitrary functions? 23:39:01 in a well-sandboxed way, of course. 23:39:14 http://yudkowsky.net/essays/aibox.html sorta freaks me out. Intuitively obviously I believe I could trivially pass it but considering that two big AI peopley thingies failed it that kind of scares me. 23:39:26 alexbobp: You mean EgoBot? 23:39:29 Or bsmnt_bot? 23:39:33 array[0] = 1; array[1] = 1; for (i=2;i tusho: oh, there are them? 23:39:40 alexbobp: everyone. 23:39:40 tusho: working on it 23:39:42 alexbobp: EgoBot runs esolangs. 23:39:45 bsmnt_bot runs Python. 23:39:46 psygnisfive: what does that mean? 23:39:51 I personally had Object Disoriented in mind. 23:39:52 what does what mean? 23:39:54 is this the quickest way to do fibonacci without using recursion 23:40:02 or are there other smartest one? 23:40:10 LinuS: That seems reasonable. 23:40:13 Why do you want to not use recursion? 23:40:16 :-) 23:40:21 because my eso language doesn't support it! 23:40:24 LinuS: Do you want to compile a list or find a specific element? 23:40:26 I'm pretty sure there are much faster ways. 23:40:32 compile a list alexbobp 23:40:48 LinuS: Because there is a formula with exponentiation and shit for just a single element, but that's the way to go for making a list. 23:41:01 I dislike the secrecy element of the AI box. 23:41:01 dogface_: Because using recursion is way slower unless you memoize, and then it's still slower 23:41:09 I want to see how it was done. It should bepublic knowledge 23:41:24 tusho: what's the AI box? 23:41:34 i've wrote another example for my irc-related esoteric language then :P 23:41:54 I'll look at AI box in a moment; first, I'll tell LinuS the faster way to calculate Fibonacci numbers, if there is one. 23:41:57 * dogface_ ponders 23:42:03 dogface_ what does what mean? 23:42:04 alexbobp: http://yudkowsky.net/essays/aibox.html 23:42:16 psygnisfive: non-compositional. 23:42:21 oh 23:42:45 phi^2 = phi + 1. The fastest way to calculate phi^n is not by repeated multiplication; it's exponentiation by squaring. 23:42:55 the meaning of the phrase is not composed solely of the meaning of its parts 23:42:56 that is 23:43:11 "escape velocity" is not "velocity" to "escape" 23:43:19 it more than just that 23:43:19 rofl 23:43:24 http://rafb.net/p/Zrn36t47.html if someone wants :) 23:43:30 IRCEPL 23:43:49 LinuS: beware, psygnisfive will probably claim it's trivial now 23:43:57 i see 23:44:08 whats trivial? 23:44:13 psygnisfive: The languge he just pasted. 23:44:17 I quite like it. 23:44:23 i shall look at it 23:44:27 I'm going to need to clean up the syntax a bit though. Object Disoriented looks like it was designed to be totally unreadable. 23:44:41 the fibonacci example is at bottom 23:47:48 tusho: i dont even know what his language is doing there. 23:47:59 psygnisfive: maybe you could read the text 23:48:02 instead of just the code samples 23:50:47 remember that language i invented? 23:50:49 in my opinion code should be vaguely transparent. :( 23:50:52 that was an awesome language 23:50:56 but then, it wouldnt be entirely esoteric 23:52:03 psygnisfive: you are arguing that you should be able to read languages you don't know 23:52:04 which is silly 23:52:08 you'd have to dumb them down 23:52:26 no, im not saying that you should be able to read it 23:52:33 i think ircepl is quite transparent to be honest o.o' 23:52:33 just that it should be generally followable 23:52:39 isn't it? 23:52:54 i mean, when i first looked at some haskell code it was obvious what it was doing, to some extent 23:52:56 not ALL of it but 23:53:30 psygnisfive: just read the damn text 23:53:31 it won't kill you 23:53:37 ;) 23:57:37 psygnisfive: thoughts? 23:57:52 I think it's funny that you could use it for both weird esoteric programming AND silly little irc bots