←2008-09-05 2008-09-06 2008-09-07→ ↑2008 ↑all
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03:48:07 <CO2Games> Ahh!
03:48:16 <CO2Games> err wrong channel
04:02:48 <CO2Games> Yay my parser works again
04:03:18 <CO2Games> And now with nested loops!
04:03:44 <CO2Games> Someone got a test program with nested loops for me?
04:15:18 <CO2Games> Nevermind then
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08:28:27 <Mony> hi
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09:42:10 <AnMaster> yay, efunge now handles input correctly, buffered like cfunge and ccbi
09:42:26 <AnMaster> efunge is still just befunge93, but :)
09:45:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i guess there doesn't have to be a reason.
09:46:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there?
09:47:05 <AnMaster> mycouser.b98 only *almost* work in befunge-93
09:47:10 <AnMaster> there is one cosmetic bug
09:47:15 <AnMaster> "UNDEF: STRN fingerprint not loaded, wo<n't check I."
09:47:24 <AnMaster> prints a < extra in befunge-93
09:47:48 <AnMaster> I verified it was related to 93 vs. 98 spaces by using cfunge
09:52:26 <oklopol> CO2Games: a nested bf program or what?
09:53:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: might not be able to do anything about that without moving that stuff out of befunge-93 :-/
09:53:40 <Deewiant> I remember that particular < being a pain
09:53:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah ok...
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09:54:29 <oklopol> hi KingOfKarlsruhe
09:54:30 <oklopol> !
09:54:33 <Deewiant> i.e. I can make it work in either -93 or -98 but not both
09:54:43 <KingOfKarlsruhe> hi oklopol
09:55:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw if I make efunge 98 at any point the only part I will keep of current code will be the stack code, because the stack code is beautiful
09:56:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh and I figured out how to do FPDP, I can't do a union hack, so I thought, why not push a tuple like {float, <data>} on the stack, then handle tagged tuples like that specially elsewhere
09:56:34 <AnMaster> so if normal + ever tries to use it I could push a 0 or whatever
09:56:39 <AnMaster> see what I mean?
09:56:50 <AnMaster> or even reflect
09:56:55 <Deewiant> you'd have to ask Mike whether that's valid
09:57:08 <AnMaster> well the specs doesn't say it isn't
09:57:41 <Deewiant> well the specs don't say squat anyway
09:57:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also the erlang shell will always print the return value of the program, so that will be the exit code
09:57:54 <AnMaster> it will not be possible to run directly from shell I think
09:58:01 <Deewiant> I think referring to Mike's specs is always a mistake since they're so vague that they allow most anything anyway :-P
09:58:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well either that way or skip implementing FPDP at all
09:58:30 <AnMaster> FPSP will be impossible
09:58:36 <AnMaster> since erlang doesn't have single
09:58:54 <AnMaster> it have integer bignum or double
09:58:59 <AnMaster> that's all for numbers
09:59:29 <AnMaster> of course I guess you could mess around with <<>> binaries and bit packing...
09:59:37 <AnMaster> probably not for float though
10:01:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: hmm, I suppose you have a -93 interpreter around: can you change the last char in line 13 in mycouser.b98 from a space to X and add a $ near the right edge of line 2 and see if that works in -93
10:02:18 <AnMaster> a sec
10:02:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, where on line 2?
10:03:00 <AnMaster> before the v$ ?
10:03:03 <Deewiant> the right edge, where there are many $s anyway
10:03:11 <Deewiant> just add a third after the two that are there
10:03:20 <AnMaster> a sec
10:03:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, worked
10:04:03 <Deewiant> yay
10:11:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/7VdQNs57.html
10:11:33 <AnMaster> see why normal rules about exit code can't apply
10:11:39 <AnMaster> yes 0 is the return value
10:11:45 <AnMaster> but...
10:11:53 <AnMaster> the erlang shell always print it
10:12:11 <Deewiant> well if you can't do it then you can't do it
10:12:13 <AnMaster> and q(). was me exiting the erlang vm
10:12:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so can it still be valid Befunge-98?
10:12:29 <AnMaster> if I took it that far
10:12:36 <Deewiant> depends on how strictly you want to read the standard
10:13:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does it say OS return code? If you could interpret it as return code to the interpreters environment that environment could mean the erlang shell
10:13:23 <AnMaster> :)
10:13:28 <Deewiant> if you want, you can read "the operating system" as "the host system" and it becomes your interpreter
10:13:33 <Deewiant> so yes, exactly
10:13:50 <AnMaster> would you read it that way?
10:14:00 <Deewiant> I don't care
10:14:23 <AnMaster> assuming you updated your mycology results page at some point I mean ;P
10:15:15 <AnMaster> anyway if I would make this befunge-98 I would rewrite everything but the stack code from scratch
10:15:19 <Deewiant> if I were you I'd just put it in a readme or somewhere that because of the way Erlang works, can't return to the OS, return it as result of function call (or whatever that is) instead
10:16:31 <Deewiant> so I'd say "as close to 100% compliant as is possible in Erlang" or whatever
10:16:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it can do free standing programs... but: 1) it is messier 2) I plan to use this integrated into other software + mix this up to implement async style MVRS. It would not be a free standing program but a distributed befunge node network ;)
10:16:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I guess I could try to write a wrapper
10:17:06 <AnMaster> still think that will print the return value though
10:17:07 <Deewiant> well then I'd say "100% compliant but the OS is not the host OS, it's the Erlang OS"
10:17:28 <Deewiant> I mean, whatever. It's not important :-P
10:17:33 <AnMaster> also I haven't got command line parameter parsing to work at all
10:17:40 <AnMaster> have to figure that out
10:17:48 <AnMaster> heh
10:18:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm also considering the possibility to have weird fingerprints like: W^X. that is memory protection on cell regions in befunge
10:19:06 <AnMaster> so you can mark code as write protected or no-execute or such
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10:19:16 <Deewiant> feral much? ;-)
10:19:18 <AnMaster> just because it would be so weird to do that in befunge
10:19:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, a lot :)
10:19:37 <AnMaster> but cfunge really have problems with feral fingerprints, really bad problems
10:19:43 <AnMaster> hard to add stuff to code
10:19:57 <AnMaster> with efunge I think a lot of stuff that would be feral in cfunge would actually be rather tame
10:20:25 <AnMaster> for example adding per-ip data? Just use a dict
10:20:42 <AnMaster> type-tagged values on stack too
10:20:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, basically the initial design will allow much more feral stuff
10:21:00 <Deewiant> exactly, feralness is dependent on many things which is why I think it's a stupid concept
10:21:03 <AnMaster> still... *NO* TRDS
10:21:08 <AnMaster> never
10:21:09 <Deewiant> REFC is feral in a purely functional language because global state is ferla
10:21:11 <Deewiant> s/la/al/
10:21:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, TRDS is always feral
10:21:22 <Deewiant> probably yes
10:21:45 <AnMaster> everything is relative except the feralness(sp?) of TRDS ;P
10:21:52 <Deewiant> so the only ones we can really call feral thus far are TRDS and MVRS, the rest are relative :-P
10:22:18 <AnMaster> MVRS would be highly feral too, but efunge will be designed to support that from the beginning
10:22:42 <AnMaster> since the only current code I will keep is the stack code which actually came out clean, working and near perfect the first time
10:22:49 <AnMaster> while the other efunge code is kind of messy
10:23:11 <AnMaster> I need to look deeper into the design though before
10:23:36 <AnMaster> for example k will be painful I think
10:24:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, will you implement MVRS in ccbi?
10:25:05 <AnMaster> and if yes: will mycology test it?
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10:35:50 <Deewiant> probably, probably
10:38:08 <AnMaster> ok
10:43:05 <oklopol> OOOOOO
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11:02:26 <Mony> bye
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11:07:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I got a TRDS question
11:08:04 <AnMaster> do you have time?
11:08:12 <AnMaster> heh (no pun intended)
11:08:16 <AnMaster> basically the issue is:
11:08:35 <AnMaster> * assume one ip (no t ever)
11:08:48 <AnMaster> 1. ip run to 200
11:09:01 <AnMaster> 2. the ip jumps back to 100
11:09:09 <AnMaster> 3. the ip does some changes
11:09:18 <AnMaster> 4. the ip jumps forward to 200 again.
11:09:22 <AnMaster> Will that work?
11:09:23 <AnMaster> because:
11:09:29 <AnMaster> "Time travel into the future is not quite so punishing. The ip that time travels will merely be frozen until time catches up with it, at which point it will continue to execute."
11:09:44 <AnMaster> that indicates that this would cause a lockup that can't be fixed
11:09:51 <AnMaster> or does the original ip still continue to run?
11:10:56 <AnMaster> what if it killed the old copy of itself at 3?
11:11:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ?
11:17:10 <oklopol> zzzzzzermelo
11:22:18 <tusho> oklopol: zermellllllo
11:27:57 <oklopol> wonder if he insisted on his friends calling him "sir mellow"
11:30:38 <Ilari> AnMaster: The way I see it, yes, the original IP continues to run. And if the original was killed, the jump to future just creates gap in time where nothing happens (but which can be jumped to)...
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11:33:53 <oerjan> oklopol: since he spoke german not english, i doubt it
11:35:22 <oklopol> way to ruin my life there
11:36:00 <oerjan> well you can probably do something with "Herr" instead
11:36:50 <oerjan> since z = ts in german, it's not really a worse fit
11:37:13 <oerjan> (also in italian, where his name is probably from)
11:38:17 <oklopol> your head is full of lies!
11:38:56 <oerjan> according to buddhism, all words are lies
11:39:32 <oklopol> are you a buddhist?
11:39:56 <oerjan> not exactly
11:40:13 <oerjan> i don't hold much with that nirvana theory
11:41:50 <oklopol> i know a few people who call themselves buddhists, with the exception that they don't actually believe in anything
11:42:38 <oerjan> ah that's not me. i believe in something. i'm just not sure what it is.
11:42:45 <oerjan> :D
11:43:08 <oklopol> well i meant they only believe in their own senses, and in science where it seems appropriate
11:43:35 <Ilari> Hmm... How do TRDS and IIPC interact? :-) In practicular, IIPC:L looks bit problematic with time-travel...
11:43:44 <oklopol> what was iipc again?
11:44:06 <Ilari> oklopol: Inter Instruction Pointer Communication.
11:44:08 <oerjan> i vaguely recall that buddhism says you _shouldn't_ believe your own senses. or thoughts.
11:44:33 <oerjan> not too much, at any rate.
11:44:38 <Ilari> oklopol: L is stack peek (for another IP).
11:45:47 <oklopol> oerjan: well that makes no sense.
11:46:20 <oklopol> well, i guess you could believe in your own senses just enough to realize you shouldn't
11:46:41 <oerjan> well it is pretty scientifically established that senses are not entirely reliable
11:46:45 <oklopol> and i don't really know anything about buddhism, and don't really want to
11:46:50 <Ilari> Well, the question really is: Which copy should be poked?
11:47:15 <oklopol> they are reliable in the sense that you sense what you sense.
11:47:38 <oklopol> doesn't really matter whether it's the real world or a mirage
11:48:21 <oerjan> i am sure that all this discussion is really prejudiced compared to some deep, buddhist philosophical writing which neither of us have heard about
11:48:25 <oklopol> basically, that when you see something, you believe you experience seeing it.
11:48:44 <oklopol> :)
11:49:43 <oklopol> oerjan: that may be, but i'm sure whoever wrote that's mother.
11:49:55 <oerjan> er what
11:50:01 <oklopol> (whoever wrote that)'s mother
11:50:13 <oklopol> as a genetive
11:50:33 <oerjan> and also, buddhist probably don't agree more than anyone else on details
11:50:37 <oerjan> *buddhists
11:51:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, I would call myself an agnostic with a hint of Buddhism, a lot of Buddhism makes sense, and it doesn't conflict with science really, so well...
11:51:53 <oklopol> religion usually doesn't conflict with science, it's just it's useless
11:52:05 <AnMaster> after all the texts doesn't claim they are true, they are just a metaphor to describe something else
11:52:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, well just look at southern US then...
11:52:34 <oklopol> fuck, why did i promise to go see our bass player's other band play
11:52:39 <AnMaster> <Ilari> Hmm... How do TRDS and IIPC interact? :-) In practicular, IIPC:L looks bit problematic with time-travel...
11:52:59 <oklopol> AnMaster: i don't get the reference
11:53:02 <AnMaster> Ilari, TRDS probably conflicts with a lot...
11:53:07 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm?
11:53:08 <oklopol> what about southern us?
11:53:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, well you know how much they are against evolution?
11:53:26 <AnMaster> preferring "god did it"
11:53:43 <oklopol> well sure, i'm not saying religion can't be a bad thing
11:53:48 <oklopol> just that it can't be a good thing
11:53:54 <AnMaster> oklopol, "religion usually doesn't conflict with science"
11:53:56 <AnMaster> that isn't true
11:54:30 <AnMaster> oklopol, you still need some type of philosophy or such to provide a set of moral rules
11:54:48 <AnMaster> that is basically what religion is actually useful for
11:54:51 <oklopol> not really.
11:55:08 <AnMaster> oklopol, no?
11:55:12 <oklopol> no
11:55:28 <oklopol> but you're right from the perspective of someone who likes the society to work
11:55:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm?
11:55:41 <oklopol> it's just you can supply these morals without adding a god
11:55:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, agreed
11:56:06 <oklopol> "likes it if the society works", ig uess
11:56:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, Buddhism doesn't add any god
11:56:12 <oklopol> *i guess
11:56:18 <oklopol> maybe "prefers a working society"
11:56:39 <oklopol> AnMaster: god as in something that cannot be proved
11:56:50 <oklopol> an axiom
11:57:21 <oklopol> we don't need an axiom, we need a set of rules, and a set of physical punishments for breaking them
11:57:24 <AnMaster> oklopol, go tell that to the string theory scientists :P
11:58:35 <AnMaster> oklopol, also, you need some axioms according to Gödel
12:00:03 <oklopol> in life, they shouldn't be given externally, people should decide their own axioms on the basis of the rules, and the punishments, perhaps even on their own beliefs about whether other people actually exist
12:00:28 <oklopol> i find it a bit silly to believe others exist, but it seems some people do believe that
12:00:49 <oklopol> can you imagine that, you being real, yeah right :D
12:00:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, you mean you don't think other people exist?
12:00:59 <AnMaster> huh
12:01:06 <oklopol> definitely not, it's all me
12:01:17 <AnMaster> oklopol, I suspect you are trolling now
12:01:36 <AnMaster> or need to visit a doctor to help with those heads *in* your head ;P
12:01:39 <oklopol> somewhat, i don't really believe either way :)
12:02:00 <oklopol> oh i have a lot of issues with my head
12:02:03 <oklopol> but i like them
12:02:11 <oklopol> i wish i were totally insane
12:02:13 <oklopol> well
12:02:21 <oklopol> not insane enough not to be able to appreciate it
12:02:27 <oerjan> "As against solipsism it is to be said, in the first place, that it is psychologically impossible to believe, and is rejected in fact even by those who mean to accept it. I once received a letter from an eminent logician, Mrs. Christine Ladd Franklin, saying that she was a solipsist, and was surprised that there were no others. Coming from a logician and a solipsist, her surprise surprised me." (Bertrand Russell)
12:02:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, a "solipsism" is?
12:03:05 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysical_solipsism
12:03:31 <oerjan> the theory that others don't exist
12:04:07 <oklopol> you gotta draw the line somewhere, i don't see why not draw it where the evidence stops
12:04:28 <oklopol> hmm
12:05:08 <oklopol> well i guess there's a great difference between not believing in anything but yourself, and believing you're the only one with a mind
12:06:04 <oklopol> also russell's argument works as a joke, but i don't see why a solipsist should be disallowed to personify the zombies where it's a useful abstraction
12:07:03 <oerjan> hm Franklin actually has a WP article
12:08:43 <oklopol> cool stuff
12:08:49 <oklopol> is it time to read?
12:08:51 <oklopol> i think so.
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13:22:38 <AnMaster> impressive, clang can compile large parts of ick
13:38:09 <tusho> AnMaster: if only they weren't liars
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14:10:05 <Mony> hi
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15:45:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ~exec print >>sys.stdout, self.raw_regex_queue[-1][1].f_code.
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15:50:12 <oklopol> i think the halting problem proof is just circular logic
15:50:39 <oklopol> does the definition of turing-completeness actually say there must be programs that never halt?
15:51:01 <oklopol> hmm, actually i guess it does
15:51:34 <oklopol> i hate computability, every once in a while i start questioning it, only to find myself making an old mistake once again
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16:26:00 <CO2Games> Hey I need some information
16:26:30 <CO2Games> Does lost kings depend on wrapping or is it ok if it goes into negative areas?
16:32:46 <AnMaster> CO2Games, memory should never wrap, however the integers in the cells must wrap and be 8-bit
16:32:50 <AnMaster> as we said before
16:33:12 <CO2Games> they absolutely must be 8-bit for lost kingdom?
16:33:13 <AnMaster> the tape iself not defined to wrap when you use < and/or >
16:33:26 <AnMaster> CO2Games, you know we discussed this before
16:33:35 <CO2Games> Uhh no
16:33:40 <CO2Games> I don't know
16:33:40 <AnMaster> yes we did
16:33:44 <AnMaster> yesterday
16:33:45 <CO2Games> Really?
16:33:52 <AnMaster> try your logs
16:33:57 <CO2Games> Err
16:33:57 <AnMaster> or logs in topic
16:34:06 <CO2Games> I don't keep logs
16:34:23 <AnMaster> links to logs are in /topic
16:34:42 <CO2Games> oh
16:34:46 <fizzie> Current topic is also perhaps a bit uninspired.
16:34:48 <fizzie> optbot!
16:34:49 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ok let me make it more familiar to you.
16:35:21 <fizzie> That just sounds like a come on.
16:35:26 <AnMaster> optbot!
16:35:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and most generate "Hello, world!\n" this one generates "Hello World!\n".
16:35:59 <fizzie> optbot: Please try to think of something funnier next time.
16:35:59 <optbot> fizzie: 1 to go
16:36:12 <fizzie> Let's see that one, then.
16:36:14 <fizzie> optbot!
16:36:14 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and what is "Reaumure"?.
16:36:22 <AnMaster> well what is it?
16:36:28 <fizzie> No clue.
16:36:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, topic good enough?
16:36:50 <CO2Games> optbot!
16:36:50 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | makes me appreciate python a lot more, thats for sure.
16:36:52 <olsner> it's a unit for something iirc
16:36:59 <fizzie> For temperature, it seems.
16:37:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw what funge interpreter do you use for fungot now?
16:37:11 <fungot> AnMaster: eval ( person-integer forcer)
16:37:13 <tusho> optbot!
16:37:13 <AnMaster> optbot!
16:37:14 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | main = putStr s >> print s where s = "main = putStr s >> print s where s = ".
16:37:20 <tusho> optbot!
16:37:21 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric |.
16:37:23 <tusho> hahahah
16:37:24 <tusho> win
16:37:25 <AnMaster> good one
16:37:26 <AnMaster> :D
16:37:30 <fizzie> Aw, the last one was quite appropriate for #esoteric.
16:37:34 <AnMaster> tusho, someone did a space line?
16:37:46 <AnMaster>
16:37:47 <tusho> AnMaster:
16:37:48 <AnMaster> like that?
16:37:58 <AnMaster> tusho, ah you think it was just that way?
16:38:07 <tusho> it strips a name
16:38:13 <CO2Games> Can someone here write me something with nested loops in brainfuck?
16:38:18 <tusho> and it didn't put a space
16:38:18 <AnMaster> tusho, oh and does it just handle <nick>: or also <nick>,
16:38:19 <tusho> just nothing
16:38:24 <tusho> AnMaster: both
16:38:32 <oklopol> CO2Games: ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
16:38:34 <AnMaster> CO2Games, sure, there is lost kingdom for example
16:38:38 <oklopol> oh nested loops
16:38:39 <tusho> oklopol: that isn't nested
16:38:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, not *nested* loops
16:38:45 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's still RC/Funge-98, with a tiny patch so that it can do the chroot/setuid stuff all by itself. Haven't bothered to change yet, even though cfunge would work now too.
16:38:52 <AnMaster> ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
16:38:52 <fungot> A
16:39:17 <CO2Games> My interperter doesn't support lost kingdom so something else
16:39:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, well cfunge need a more complex chroot I guess
16:39:25 <CO2Games> interpreter*
16:39:28 <AnMaster> and well chroot by itself.. you could add that
16:40:00 <CO2Games> chroot? are we talking bash?
16:40:20 <AnMaster> hm I think I have to ignore someone here soon....
16:41:05 <oklopol> me me me!
16:41:09 <CO2Games> lol
16:41:15 <fizzie> Heh, fungot actually does s/^\S+[;:,]\s+// to the text, so it supports even my nonstandard "nick; foo" attributions. Although I've been using : lately because of you people.
16:41:16 <fungot> fizzie: i would suppose he is. but the same code on every other register, in which we use different names for integer-set and char-set. or change lexmod-name to fnord or keep logs
16:41:35 <oklopol> fizzie: because of us people?
16:42:01 <fizzie> oklopol: Someone here (tusho?) asked me why I don't use ":" like all right-thinking people.
16:42:07 <oklopol> oh
16:42:17 <fizzie> I didn't really have a good answer for that.
16:42:43 <tusho> fizzie: the problem with ; is that \S+[,:] is already cutting tons out
16:42:53 <CO2Games> Ok I've added dowhile {} and if () to my interpreter
16:43:05 <CO2Games> no ifelse yet though :\
16:43:17 <tusho> AnMaster: ignore CO2Games? why?
16:43:34 <tusho> because you think you're smarter than him for knowing more unix terminology and being better at implementing brainfuck?
16:44:07 <CO2Games> hey AnMaster, rm -rf /*, do it now
16:44:25 <tusho> CO2Games: hm, clever, that'll actually work
16:44:28 <tusho> as opposed to rm -rf /
16:44:31 <tusho> which is specialcased
16:44:42 <CO2Games> heh I know from experience
16:44:59 <tusho> CO2Games: i doubt he's stupid enough to shell as root, though
16:45:05 <pikhq> CO2Games: ++[>++[>--<+]<+]
16:45:06 <CO2Games> sudo
16:45:10 <CO2Games> oh alright
16:45:12 <tusho> CO2Games: you didn't specify sudo
16:45:21 <CO2Games> oh well :\
16:45:42 <CO2Games> thanks
16:45:44 <AnMaster> there are two versions it wouldn't work
16:45:44 <oklopol> AnMaster is clever enough to append sudo when that doesn't work
16:45:47 <AnMaster> 1) not using root
16:45:53 <AnMaster> 2) I'm not that stupid
16:45:58 <AnMaster> and actually 3 reasons:
16:46:00 <tusho> 2) disputed
16:46:07 <AnMaster> 3) / is mounted read only
16:46:11 <CO2Games> 1 is probably the case
16:46:16 <fizzie> There isn't really much in my logs that starts with \S+; and isn't either me doing "nick;", mooz doing "nick;" or some sort of code snippet.
16:46:18 <CO2Games> fine
16:46:19 <AnMaster> all 3 apply
16:46:22 <CO2Games> sudo mount
16:46:38 <CO2Games> now get the name of what's mounted at /
16:46:49 <CO2Games> and mount it again
16:46:58 <CO2Games> Or an even simpler idea
16:47:11 <CO2Games> Get a bucket of salt water, pull out the drive, and drop it right in.
16:48:04 <CO2Games> I think he actually did it rofl
16:48:12 <CO2Games> That or he has me on ignore
16:48:18 <CO2Games> Or he doesn't like talking
16:48:33 <CO2Games> Or he's established a background privmsg through nicknames network
16:48:37 <tusho> he has you on /ignore, i imagine.
16:48:48 <tusho> don't worry. you're not missing much.
16:48:55 <CO2Games> lol
16:49:45 <Ilari> More funky way for removing access to suid/sgid binaries would to fork in new namespace and then remount everything nosuid... And unmount /home and /var while at it... :->
16:50:11 <CO2Games> that's interesting
16:50:47 <CO2Games> I hate how windows can deny me access to my folders
16:51:20 <CO2Games> D:\My backup - blah blah\backup\Documents and Settings\Owner\ - Permission Denied\
16:51:27 <oklopol> :-)
16:51:42 <CO2Games> Even when I'm logged in as an administrator
16:52:35 <CO2Games> Oh but I boot into linux, I get them all fine
16:52:57 <CO2Games> Although I still have to teach it that it needs a different mounting setup at start
16:53:42 <CO2Games> /dev/sda1 is supposed to go to /media/library, and /dev/sda2 to /media/ruins
16:54:33 <CO2Games> and /dev/hda1 to /media/xp, /dev/hda2 to /media/backup
16:54:33 -!- oklofok has joined.
16:54:52 <CO2Games> Hmm
16:54:55 <CO2Games> 1 sec
16:56:24 <CO2Games> pikhq...
16:56:32 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:56:38 <CO2Games> Is the code you gave supposed to loop infinitely?
16:56:48 <CO2Games> err
16:56:53 <CO2Games> Almost infinitely?
16:57:14 <ais523> hi tusho
16:57:16 <ais523> <tusho> oh no
16:57:23 <tusho> :D
16:57:24 <tusho> hi ais523
16:57:41 <tusho> you'll note (probably not) that http://eso-std.org/ has changed, because I'm testing the design I'm going to use for my blog on it
16:57:51 <tusho> (note: try with firefox 3 or ie 7 everything else is too stupid to get it right)
16:57:58 <tusho> (and it is fully valid, it's just they have a stupid bug)
16:58:30 <ais523> tusho: does it work on IE8? And what in particular does everyone else get wrong?
16:58:38 <pikhq> CO2Games: It should eventually terminate.
16:58:43 <ais523> besides, it looks good on Konqueror
16:58:45 <tusho> ais523: it also works in webkit-based stuff but less so
16:58:50 <tusho> and no, it doesn't
16:58:52 <tusho> konqueror gets it wrong
16:58:53 <pikhq> It'll take a fairly long time to do so, of course.
16:58:58 <tusho> badly wrong
16:59:18 <tusho> ais523: anyway, the bug is that they don't let you style elements they don't recognise, which means that they don't let you style the HTML 5 elements I use
16:59:21 <tusho> that is 100% a bug on their side
16:59:33 <tusho> and since the only people who're gonna read my blog are people i know who use one of those two browsers, i don't care
16:59:36 <CO2Games> Hmm it seems to loop a lot
16:59:43 <pikhq> ... You use HTML 5 elements?
16:59:46 <CO2Games> maybe it's the fact that it's an unsigned short
16:59:52 <pikhq> I'm afraid that your website's the bug.
16:59:59 <tusho> pikhq: Why?
17:00:15 <tusho> http://intertwingly.net/, http://diveintomark.org/ <- two html5 websites, i could find more if i cared.
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17:00:28 <pikhq> HTML5 is not a standard.
17:00:32 <ais523> tusho: it's generally considered to be a bad idea to code your website for standards that hardly anything supports yet, for pragmatic reasons
17:00:36 <pikhq> It's a series of draft documents.
17:00:40 <tusho> ais523: pragmatic reasons don't apply right now, though
17:00:45 <tusho> pikhq: the bits I use are stable, more or less.
17:00:51 <tusho> and i know very well, thanks, I'm in #whatwg
17:01:05 * pikhq beats tusho with a cluebat.
17:01:26 * tusho beats pikhq with a "it works on everything I care about, it's valid, the bits I use have been stable since forever, and most importantly I don't give a shit" bat
17:01:31 <pikhq> It's not a bug to not support an unfinished standard.
17:01:33 -!- oklofok has left (?).
17:01:39 <pikhq> Tusho: a man of anticlue.
17:01:41 <tusho> No, see, it's not specified in HTML 5.
17:01:46 <tusho> It's a bug in css
17:02:00 <tusho> in their css impl
17:02:13 <tusho> it should apply to html 4, even
17:02:23 <CO2Games> It's not terminating!
17:02:27 <pikhq> Funny, I didn't know CSS was supposed to apply style to unsupported elements.
17:02:50 <ais523> tusho: maybe the default stylesheet for an unsupported element has an !important in it somewhere, you can't prove otherwise
17:02:50 <tusho> It is.
17:03:07 <tusho> ais523: quite possible
17:03:18 <tusho> but unlikely ;)
17:03:23 <pikhq> CO2Games: You're doing it wrong.
17:03:25 <tusho> aalso I can prove otherwise
17:03:27 <tusho> firefox is open source.
17:03:31 <tusho> well, gecko in specific
17:03:36 <CO2Games> What why
17:04:01 <pikhq> tusho: BTW, your doctype declaration is wrong. :p
17:04:16 <tusho> pikhq: no.
17:04:16 <pikhq> CO2Games: Because the loop terminates.
17:04:20 <tusho> <!DOCTYPE html> is the html5 doctype.
17:05:36 <CO2Games> Interesting
17:05:37 * pikhq beats HTML5 with a stick.
17:05:43 <tusho> pikhq: http://annevankesteren.nl/2005/07/html5-doctype
17:05:46 <tusho> please read. thanks.
17:05:48 <CO2Games> Does this only work if they are unsigned CHARs?
17:06:42 <fizzie> Heh, I wasn't the only one who was surprised by that html5 doctype. (I'm probably still the only one who thinks it's somehow unclean without a reason.)
17:07:10 <CO2Games> I hate doctypes
17:07:20 <CO2Games> If it has html as the root tag, it's html
17:07:29 <CO2Games> I mean seriously
17:07:42 <pikhq> tusho: I'm one of the crazy people who thinks web browsers should use SGML parsers.
17:07:47 -!- ihope has joined.
17:07:57 <tusho> pikhq: You're in #esoteric, I'm pretty sure craziness is a given.
17:08:03 <ihope> So, an artificial intelligence operating system.
17:08:08 <tusho> But yea, less HTML 5 talk in here, I was just trying to inform ais523 :P
17:08:12 <CO2Games> GLaDOS?
17:08:13 <tusho> How does it look in FF3, ais523?
17:08:17 <tusho> I assume fine as it looks ok here
17:08:19 <tusho> but you never know...
17:08:24 <pikhq> I'm afraid that that's not a valid SGML doctype, so it's not strictly speaking valid HTML, even if it does validate.
17:08:25 <ihope> CO2Games: if someone's actually written GLaDOS, yes.
17:08:25 <ais523> tusho: it looks fine, ye
17:08:27 <pikhq> :p
17:08:28 <ais523> s/$/s/
17:08:39 <ais523> grr, I seem to be in the habit of missing off the last letter of my sentences agai
17:08:42 <tusho> ais523: any suggestions?
17:08:55 <ihope> Seems simple enough: take an AI engine and stick an operating system on top of it.
17:08:57 <ais523> not particularly, as I actually like it, which is probably a first
17:09:05 <tusho> hm... maybe ESO could use it given a colour/font/background/etc rejiggle
17:09:09 <CO2Games> GLaDOS isn't AI
17:09:15 <ais523> by the way, I had a brilliant idea for designing a shell recently
17:09:23 <ais523> people get confused if they're new to the command line
17:09:27 <CO2Games> GLaDOS is real intelligence.
17:09:38 <CO2Games> It learns. AI is pre-programmed
17:09:46 <tusho> er, no
17:09:46 <ais523> so there should be a command which you just give various filenames to and it figures out for itself some of the things you might want to do with them
17:09:52 <tusho> any sort of reasonable AI will have some for m of learning
17:09:56 <fizzie> AI is bogus, as was famously said.
17:09:57 <tusho> intelligence requires it
17:10:04 <ais523> e.g. if you give an existing file and a nonexistent file, it suggests copying or moving
17:10:09 <tusho> ais523: that's clever
17:10:13 <ais523> and if they have different extensions, it suggests various programs to do the translation
17:10:39 <CO2Games> That would be AI
17:11:43 <tusho> no it wouldn't
17:11:47 <tusho> CO2Games: your definition of "AI" is very strange
17:11:53 <CO2Games> What do you define AI
17:12:09 <tusho> non-organism-based intelligence
17:12:17 <CO2Games> lol
17:12:53 <CO2Games> I define AI as something that is a sample of intelligence, but does not learn from previous mistakes or successes
17:13:12 <tusho> that is a terrible definition :)
17:13:15 <tusho> and not what anyone means by AI
17:13:23 <tusho> heck, even SHRDLU learned, iirc
17:13:24 <CO2Games> Ever watch iRobot?
17:13:33 <tusho> no, I'm not a masochist
17:13:40 <CO2Games> A what?
17:13:44 <tusho> ...
17:13:51 <ais523> I didn't because I heard how much of a mess it made of the book, which I rather like
17:13:58 <tusho> CO2Games: go look it up.
17:14:04 <CO2Games> Oh well
17:14:08 <ais523> Asimov was pretty clear on the reasons why his book didn't do various things, and the film did all of them...
17:14:09 <ihope> A masochist is one who enjoys pain.
17:14:12 <CO2Games> fuck the book
17:14:15 <CO2Games> books suck
17:14:31 <CO2Games> I've only really liked one book.
17:19:34 * tusho kicks CO2Games
17:19:51 <CO2Games> lol
17:20:05 <CO2Games> Well I'm not sure what this program is supposed to do
17:20:31 <CO2Games> drainfuck::++[>++[>--<+]<+]
17:20:43 <CO2Games> I mean...
17:21:23 <CO2Games> It loops until it wraps, and does that over and over until it wraps as well
17:21:31 <CO2Games> No wonder it's so slow
17:21:56 <pikhq> It takes a few milliseconds in EgoBF.
17:23:03 <CO2Games> Yeah but I'm using shorts not chars
17:23:21 <CO2Games> Also my parser is interpreting, not compiling.
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17:57:49 <ihope> What's the book you've really liked?
18:02:32 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:06:45 <AnMaster> ihope, asking anyone?
18:07:27 <ihope> CO2Games, what's the book you've really liked?
18:07:39 <AnMaster> well if I had K&R would probably answer that, since obviously that would be the right geek answer :D
18:07:48 <AnMaster> sadly I don't have a copy of K&R
18:08:17 <ihope> K&R isn't some Lisp book, is it?
18:09:21 <Deewiant> meh, ran into a bug in DMD which pretty much halts my CCBI work until it's fixed
18:09:39 <ais523> Deewiant: what is it?
18:09:43 <ais523> and does it affect gdc?
18:09:50 <Deewiant> probably, since it's a frontend bug
18:09:55 <Deewiant> http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=2339
18:11:16 <tusho> "K&R isn't some Lisp book, is it?"
18:11:24 <tusho> K&R is The C Programming Language
18:11:31 <tusho> written by dennis richie and kercan'tspellhisname
18:11:40 <Deewiant> kernighan
18:11:42 <tusho> came out before even the spec was finalized, iirc
18:11:53 <Deewiant> and ritchie, not richie
18:11:57 <tusho> whatevs.
18:14:11 <Deewiant> ██■██
18:16:10 <AnMaster> <ihope> K&R isn't some Lisp book, is it?
18:16:11 <AnMaster> no
18:16:17 <AnMaster> *the* C one
18:16:46 <ais523> AnMaster: I guess the -fstd=c89 is autoconf getting confused
18:16:53 <AnMaster> ais523, ah hi
18:17:12 <AnMaster> ais523, also clang almost works, and the bug that happens I think is in ccc itself
18:17:20 <Deewiant> ccc?
18:17:21 <AnMaster> it got problems passing the right order to llvm-ld
18:17:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wrapper for clang to accept GCC command line arguments
18:17:43 <Deewiant> ah
18:17:43 <AnMaster> and to handle standard POSIX ones
18:17:44 <ais523> oh, the old-style protos are just a couple I didn't catch, everything was like that originally but the ones which took no arguments looked correct enough that I didn't notice them, nor did the other person who ANSIfied the source before I got to it
18:17:46 <AnMaster> so you can do ccc -c
18:17:51 <AnMaster> normal clang doesn't support -c
18:18:17 <AnMaster> ais523, gcc with the right -W flags catches it
18:19:08 <ais523> AnMaster: iffi.diff has a bit of a ring to it, anyway
18:19:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you need that static assert btw?
18:19:20 <AnMaster> ais523, hm?
18:19:46 <ais523> AnMaster: I just like the way your filename sounds
18:19:51 <AnMaster> ok
18:19:59 <AnMaster> ais523, diffi sure I could see it
18:20:01 <AnMaster> .diff no
18:20:04 <AnMaster> oh well
18:20:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: ?
18:20:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=2339
18:20:26 <Deewiant> what I need is for it to work properly
18:20:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why do you need static asserts? sure they are nice for preventing bugs
18:20:39 <Deewiant> I'm not using it in an assert
18:20:40 <AnMaster> but apart from that?
18:20:44 <AnMaster> oh ok
18:20:46 <Deewiant> it's just there to make a simple testcase
18:21:04 <Deewiant> the basic problem is that mixin("FooMixin.x") can't be passed to a template as an alias parameter
18:21:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, go do some work on llvmdc or whatever the D compiler targeted at llvm is called
18:21:31 <AnMaster> does it use a custom frontend or DMD?
18:21:32 <Deewiant> doesn't help
18:21:36 <Deewiant> they all use the same crap-ass frontend
18:21:55 <AnMaster> so write a new frontend targeted at LLVM
18:21:59 <AnMaster> all issues solved
18:22:00 <Deewiant> I did
18:22:00 <AnMaster> ;)
18:22:07 <Deewiant> only finished the lexer, then got bored
18:22:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you did?
18:22:11 <AnMaster> oh?
18:22:15 <AnMaster> hm
18:22:18 <Deewiant> then donated the code to dang just a few days ago
18:22:26 <Deewiant> which is essentially D clang, just like mine was
18:22:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that "was not the answer I had expected"
18:22:43 <Deewiant> I know :-P
18:22:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what happened to dang?
18:22:52 <Deewiant> it exists
18:22:59 <Deewiant> also dil exists
18:23:05 <AnMaster> dil? .NET?
18:23:07 <AnMaster> ew
18:23:07 <Deewiant> but DMD is the only one near production-quality
18:23:09 <Deewiant> no
18:23:35 <Deewiant> http://code.google.com/p/dil/
18:24:04 <Deewiant> currently it's mostly a documentation generator from what I understand
18:24:20 <AnMaster> ah well
18:24:33 <Deewiant> the smartest thing for me to do would be to fix the DMD frontend
18:24:42 <Deewiant> but meh, it's C++, and not exactly obvious
18:24:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yep, and then use gdb
18:24:47 <AnMaster> gdc*
18:24:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, huh C++? not D?
18:24:54 <AnMaster> weird
18:25:01 <Deewiant> the DMC compiler backend was C++
18:25:10 <Deewiant> hence, llvmdc is also C++
18:25:25 <Deewiant> which annoyed me, which is why I started writing that frontend
18:25:32 <AnMaster> ah I see
18:25:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: using gdc doesn't matter here
18:25:39 <Deewiant> it's all the same frontend
18:25:42 <AnMaster> yep
18:26:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so well maybe time to updated the mycology results page with the current mycology (excluding myco edge since CCBI can't pass it)
18:26:22 <Deewiant> the other option would be to get dil to a usable state but that's too much work :-P
18:26:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well, mycoedge doesn't exist yet :-P
18:26:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you think so I will have a new cfunge release out by tomorrow morning which support SOCK and SCKE
18:26:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, dil or dang you mean?
18:27:06 <Deewiant> dil, it's much more complete than dang
18:27:10 <AnMaster> ah ok
18:27:19 <Deewiant> of course I'd probably prefer working on dang
18:27:31 <Deewiant> but that would be another order of magnitude more work :-P
18:27:39 <Deewiant> and in any case, none of this is practical
18:28:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well anyway do you plan to update the mycology result page soon, considering rc/funge got better too?
18:28:12 <Deewiant> maybe
18:28:23 <AnMaster> if yes cfunge with SOCK SCKE will be released this evening or before noon tomorrow
18:39:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, 0.3.1 release in progress...
18:41:53 <Deewiant> first I'll update old results, so Language::Befunge followed by RC/Funge (and removing jvh and other versions, just the latest)
18:42:01 <Deewiant> so now I'm installing a new version of Perl :-P
18:43:41 <AnMaster> very nice
18:44:03 <Deewiant> oh now this is sad
18:44:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh?
18:44:11 <Deewiant> At present, Strawberry Perl must be installed in C:\strawberry
18:44:24 <Deewiant> I wonder how they managed to hardcode that
18:44:27 <AnMaster> ok why that perl?
18:44:51 <Deewiant> evidently it's a smart option
18:45:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, a what?
18:45:11 <ais523> Deewiant: what about non-Windows systems, does it still have to be installed in C:\strawberry
18:45:20 <Deewiant> ais523: it's for Windows only
18:45:39 <Deewiant> but screw that, I refuse to install it in such a place
18:45:53 <Deewiant> so activestate it is
18:45:59 <ais523> Deewiant: you can hardlink directories on Windows, you could use that to install it...
18:46:11 <Deewiant> across partitions?
18:46:17 <ais523> probably not
18:46:19 <ais523> not sure though
18:46:24 <Deewiant> I think not
18:46:28 <ais523> Windows' filesystem is weird
18:46:43 <ais523> on Linux you can hardlink files but not directories, Windows is the other way round...
18:46:47 <AnMaster> https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=221310&package_id=267309&release_id=624578
18:46:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there you are ^
18:47:10 <AnMaster> note, that probably doesn't work on windows, since I don't have cygwin available
18:47:16 <AnMaster> cygwin does not run under wine
18:47:18 <Deewiant> I can test it on cygwin
18:47:21 <AnMaster> and I got no other windows
18:47:40 <ais523> AnMaster: I have cygwin available although not here, do you want me to test it when I get home?
18:47:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I can't do much if it doesn't compile under that, if it is something either part of C99 or POSIX.1-2001 that it can't handle
18:49:57 <ais523> I have to go now, forgot it was Saturday...
18:49:59 -!- ais523 has quit ("9").
18:51:18 <CO2Games> ihope: The curious incident of the dog in the night-time
18:51:33 <CO2Games> I'm able to relate to the main character in it, unlike other books.
19:20:30 * pikhq needs to read that book some time.
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19:30:36 <fizzie> Yes, and you can "mount --bind" directories around on Linux, across anything obviously.
19:32:05 -!- oklopol has joined.
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19:38:01 <M0ny> optbot...
19:38:02 <optbot> M0ny: going to investigate
19:38:05 <M0ny> yeah
19:38:13 <M0ny> i love investigations
19:41:09 <Deewiant> the new k testing dropped Language::Befunge and pyfunge out earlier than before :-/
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20:05:55 <Deewiant> and oh snap, !Befunge loops infinitely on k at "2k ;;;5"
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20:18:15 <fizzie> What should that sort of thing do? Skip the first ;, then do the ;; normally and push a 5?
20:18:43 <Deewiant> ;;; is a no-op assuming no other semicolons on that line
20:19:01 <Deewiant> first ; goes to second, third to first, second to third, and then we're through
20:19:27 <fizzie> And k, will it pick the 5 as the instruction to execute?
20:19:31 <Deewiant> yes
20:20:27 <fizzie> I'm not really a Funge-98 person, so fungot doesn't use either 'k' or ';', I think. There's two 'j's, though.
20:20:28 <fungot> fizzie: when a schemer says " this"
20:20:41 <fizzie> fungot: Then what?
20:20:42 <fungot> fizzie: depending on the viewer. some may like to think befunge, but still
20:22:19 <fizzie> And a single ], all other turns are plain old <>v^, even though I could've saved characters with []. And no w. It's very crappy code. :/
20:23:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you around?
20:36:51 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:37:07 <Deewiant> well, with a lot of hacking (removing the mmap check as well as a bunch of fingerprints) I managed to get cfunge to compile under cygwin
20:37:15 <Deewiant> crashes in o:
20:37:15 <Deewiant> Trying to write to it with o...
20:37:15 <Deewiant> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
20:41:40 <Deewiant> guess that testing cfunge is for tomorrow then
20:54:16 -!- kar8nga has joined.
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21:02:18 <CO2Games> Ok I know what the problem in my interpreter is
21:02:24 <CO2Games> Well
21:02:28 <CO2Games> Sort of
21:03:01 <oklopol> brainfuck interpreter?
21:03:13 <CO2Games> drainfuck
21:03:24 <CO2Games> Although it's supposed to support most brainfuck
21:03:41 <CO2Games> The wrapping not so much because they are 16-bit cells not 8-bit
21:03:48 <oklopol> you added a few loop constructs?
21:03:53 <CO2Games> Yeah
21:04:14 <CO2Games> The [ and ] aren't working when nested
21:04:24 * oerjan wonders if this is another case of not skipping loops properly
21:04:26 * KingOfKarlsruhe eat streusel cake like this http://tinyurl.com/5b469r
21:04:27 <CO2Games> Actually they might be entirely broken
21:04:29 <oklopol> i can fix your code you wanna
21:04:34 <oklopol> *if you
21:04:45 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:04:52 <CO2Games> The problem is it won't exit the loop once it is 0
21:05:00 <oklopol> if it's in python, otherwise i can't promise anything :P
21:05:05 <CO2Games> c++
21:05:32 <oerjan> CO2Games: does it avoid entering loops if they're 0 at the start?
21:05:32 <oklopol> KingOfKarlsruhe: you're a king, how hard can it be to get some cake?
21:05:37 <oklopol> also that looks delicious
21:05:53 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
21:06:17 <CO2Games> Ye...errrr
21:06:20 <CO2Games> hmm
21:06:24 <CO2Games> I don't know
21:06:33 <KingOfKarlsruhe> oklopol: i have a lot of grandmas
21:06:37 <CO2Games> eww
21:07:00 <oklopol> KingOfKarlsruhe: i read that as "wants to eat"
21:07:27 <KingOfKarlsruhe> oklopol; no i eat it now ^^
21:07:37 <oerjan> kings always have to let them eat cake. and they may _still_ lose their head for it
21:07:38 <CO2Games> Lemee check if it does or not
21:07:55 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat, GreyKnight and KingOfKarlsruhe, we have a lot of majestetic names here
21:08:08 -!- oklopol has changed nick to OkloThePol.
21:08:40 <GreyKnight> Oklob Police? :-)
21:08:45 <CO2Games> oerjan: Yeah it skips the loop
21:08:58 <OkloThePol> Oklob?
21:09:01 <oerjan> ok so it's not that common newbie mistake :)
21:09:05 <CO2Games> Well, [] does, but {} doesn't as intended
21:09:19 <OkloThePol> CO2Games: give us some code or start debugging, whining doesn't help :P
21:09:24 <CO2Games> [] is a while, and {} is a dowhile
21:09:29 <CO2Games> and () is an if :D
21:09:43 <CO2Games> ok
21:09:44 <GreyKnight> OkloThePol: "oklob plants" are a dastardly and widely-feared monster from the game Crawl (see ##crawl)
21:09:50 * oerjan is with Pol the Great
21:09:56 <OkloThePol> KingOfKarlsruhe: hey! you can only have 2 grandmas, i just realized :--)
21:10:28 <oerjan> hm was it gilgamesh who had two mothers?
21:10:29 <CO2Games> biological*
21:10:42 <oerjan> or was it three
21:10:50 <ihope> No, that was Florence Ambrose.
21:10:56 <ihope> And maybe Gilgamesh, too.
21:10:58 <CO2Games> I've always wondered if eggs could fuse resulting in two or more fathers
21:11:31 <GreyKnight> CO2Games: you could put some code in a pastebin if you want help, then we could see the problem more easily
21:11:33 <ihope> I doubt it, given that horses and donkeys can't exactly mix, and they have almost the same number of chromosomes.
21:11:38 <CO2Games> Alright
21:11:39 <CO2Games> 1 sec
21:11:40 <oerjan> what? i don't remember florence having - oh, that. but only one was biological right?
21:11:42 <ihope> Or something like that, anyway.
21:11:51 <ihope> Right.
21:11:53 <GreyKnight> (you are the guy that is doing YA bf-alike, right?)
21:12:16 <KingOfKarlsruhe> OkloThePol: thats enough
21:12:20 <oerjan> er is wikipedia down?
21:12:28 <ihope> Why did EU have both a mother and a father, anyway? You don't need two people to make a clone.
21:12:31 <OkloThePol> KingOfKarlsruhe: okay i'll stop
21:12:41 <KingOfKarlsruhe> oerjan: yes wikipedia is down
21:12:59 <ihope> Wikipedia doesn't seem to be down here.
21:13:02 <GreyKnight> WP works for me
21:13:09 <GreyKnight> (en-wp, that is)
21:13:48 -!- OkloThePol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
21:13:52 -!- OkloThePol has joined.
21:14:32 <CO2Games> http://pastebin.com/da33c84b
21:14:58 <ihope> no.wikipedia.org works, ja.wikipedia.org works, fi.wikipedia.org works, zh.wikipedia.org works.
21:15:21 <GreyKnight> so only http://oerjan.wikipedia.org is the problem :-)
21:15:29 <ihope> Now I need to look at the Hungarian, German, Spanish, Klingon, Lojban, and French Wikipedias.
21:15:31 <CO2Games> moveleft and moveright move the pointer for the data tape
21:15:36 <CO2Games> or code tape
21:15:40 <CO2Games> whichever is used
21:15:44 <ihope> Oh, and Hindi.
21:15:47 <CO2Games> I know for a fact that they work
21:16:05 <GreyKnight> ihope: wasn't the tlhingan Hol one discontinued?
21:16:08 <oerjan> i still cannot reach en.wikipedia
21:16:10 <GreyKnight> hi btw :-)
21:16:33 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ihope: de.wikipedia is not available
21:17:14 <CO2Games> +[>+[>-<+]<+] - Works but not on my interpreter
21:17:15 <GreyKnight> KingOfKarlsruhe: I can get at de-wp as well, there must be disruption on the path from you to them somewhere
21:17:20 <oerjan> no. was fine
21:18:02 <CO2Games> So any ideas?
21:19:06 <CO2Games> It seems to be looping back to the start of its loop regardless of the result.
21:19:14 <GreyKnight> Topic for #wikipedia is "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Status: Down in Europe | Maintain civility and respect at all times | No public logs allowed | No speaking bots allowed. | For an op, join #wikimedia-ops"
21:19:15 <CO2Games> but only the outside loop not the inside one
21:19:25 <GreyKnight> "Status: Down in Europe" being the important bit :-)
21:19:53 <CO2Games> optbot, help
21:19:53 <optbot> CO2Games: Ouch.
21:19:57 <CO2Games> optbot, please
21:19:58 <optbot> CO2Games: I really need to learn LISP and Perl, and practice Scheme and C.
21:20:05 <CO2Games> optbot!
21:20:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I think you broke EgoBot..
21:20:13 <GreyKnight> anyway :-)
21:20:23 <OkloThePol> i can get to wp
21:20:39 <CO2Games> Guys?
21:20:43 <GreyKnight> OkloThePol: yeah, I can from Ireland too. It is probably the mainland or else patchy
21:20:53 <GreyKnight> CO2Games: we could probably help more with pasted code and/or copious debugging output :-)
21:21:08 <GreyKnight> GreyKnight's First Rule of Debugging: When in doubt, print it out
21:21:10 <CO2Games> debugging output? There isn't an error
21:21:14 <CO2Games> Oh
21:21:16 <CO2Games> I did
21:21:19 <CO2Games> It takes too long
21:22:01 <OkloThePol> guys my code doesn't work can you help me
21:22:09 <CO2Games> Ok what's the code
21:22:21 <oerjan> OkloThePol: there's a missing semicolon on line 43
21:22:27 <GreyKnight> CO2Games: I mean that, while the executable is running, it should append information to a file on what its current status is
21:22:49 <GreyKnight> that way you could trace through said output to see where it is deviating from expectations
21:23:11 <CO2Games> Oh so you want me to output each operation to a file and upload the file?
21:24:01 <CO2Games> Code symbol - Cell being pointed to before the operation - its value before the operation
21:24:17 <CO2Games> I already have it setup for stdout so I can get that out to a file instead
21:24:36 <fizzie> Wasn't oklopol a Python guy? Missing semicolon in Python code sounds fishy.
21:24:52 <GreyKnight> basically, write out everything you can think of, run a short test of what doesn't work, and then go through the output performing the code operations by hand to see which ones are wrong :-)
21:26:24 <ihope> Doesn't Python have traditional braces-and-semicolon type syntax?
21:26:47 <OkloThePol> NO
21:27:20 <OkloThePol> haven't you seen
21:27:20 <OkloThePol> >>> from __future__ import braces
21:27:21 <OkloThePol> SyntaxError: not a chance (<pyshell#2>, line 1)
21:28:09 <fizzie> Python is (in)famous for its indentation-sensitive syntax.
21:29:42 <GreyKnight> I was under the impression that it's not so much that the syntax is *sensitive* to indentation as that the indentation *is* the syntax :-)
21:30:12 <fizzie> Although you can use ;s to put multiple statements on a single line, so I guess there could be a missing ;.
21:30:44 <oerjan> fizzie: are you doubting my oracular powers?
21:30:53 <ihope> I like doubting people.
21:31:16 <oerjan> ihope: hey, you're back to your old self!
21:31:18 <ihope> I'm doubting... everyone except oerjan right now.
21:31:28 <ihope> Did I change temporarily?
21:31:32 <fizzie> Doubt, doubt, doubt the boat.
21:31:52 <GreyKnight> I doubt that ihope likes doubting people
21:32:06 <oerjan> ihope: you had that sorta weredog look
21:32:51 <ihope> Ah.
21:33:06 <ihope> So I didn't change from always doubting myself to thinking I'm always right, or vice versa.
21:33:21 <oerjan> you may have, i didn't notice
21:34:21 <oerjan> although i doubt that. and i'm always right.
21:37:21 <CO2Games> guys
21:37:45 <CO2Games> the debug output is 28.3 MB
21:37:56 <GreyKnight> for what kind of input?!
21:38:02 <CO2Games> huh?
21:38:04 <CO2Games> +[>+[>-<+]<+]
21:38:19 <oerjan> what is your cell size?
21:38:25 <CO2Games> what?
21:38:29 <CO2Games> oh
21:38:32 <CO2Games> unsigned short
21:39:13 <oerjan> how many bits on your system?
21:39:18 <CO2Games> bits of what
21:39:25 <CO2Games> you mean per short?
21:39:28 <CO2Games> 16-bit cells
21:39:32 <oerjan> OF COURSE
21:39:45 <CO2Games> Sorry I thought you meant ram heh
21:39:51 <oerjan> oh
21:40:30 <CO2Games> +[>+[>-<+]<+] takes a fraction of a second on brainfucking machine
21:40:30 <oerjan> good grief someone is doing fireworks outside
21:41:25 <GreyKnight> CO2Games: put the first bunch of lines of the debug output on a pastebin and let's see if it's doing something wrong early on
21:41:32 <CO2Games> alright
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21:43:36 <CO2Games> http://pastebin.com/d7efc8647
21:43:39 <oerjan> mind you that should take 2^32 steps of the inner loop, right?
21:43:59 <CO2Games> errr ok
21:44:01 <CO2Games> 1 sec
21:44:58 <CO2Games> 32^2 or 2^32
21:45:06 <oerjan> 2^32
21:45:10 <CO2Games> damn
21:45:18 <CO2Games> That's a lot of lines
21:45:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | just use ssh instead.
21:45:46 <oerjan> take the first 2^16 steps
21:45:58 <oerjan> until the inner cell should wrap around
21:46:17 <oerjan> that's the first place you'd expect something could be wrong
21:46:51 <GreyKnight> better idea might be to take the section around that, cutting off both before *and* after?
21:47:00 <CO2Games> notepad crashed
21:47:05 <CO2Games> wait nevermind
21:47:05 <oerjan> well that's what i meant.
21:47:27 <GreyKnight> oerjan: ok, ignore my misunderstanding then :-)
21:47:31 <CO2Games> Wait what?
21:48:07 <oerjan> CO2Games: you want to see what happens around the point when cell 2 wraps around to 0 for the first time
21:48:47 <CO2Games> ok
21:49:00 <oerjan> er or cell 1
21:49:13 <oerjan> i guess that should be about simultaneous
21:49:30 <tusho> OkloThePol:
21:49:34 <tusho> Oklo my pol.
21:49:42 -!- tusho has changed nick to TuTheSho.
21:50:34 <oerjan> CO2Games: should be around line 5*65536
21:50:53 <CO2Games> oh ok 1 sec then
21:51:06 <oerjan> = 327680
21:52:01 <CO2Games> http://pastebin.com/d7ed995ad
21:53:28 <oerjan> i see, so it _does_ end the inner loop
21:53:44 <CO2Games> Yez
21:53:47 <CO2Games> Yes*
21:54:03 <CO2Games> But never the outer one
21:54:23 <CO2Games> I'm thinking it has something to do with my usage of shorts instead of chars
21:54:35 <CO2Games> like the code needs to wrap to work or something
21:54:39 <oerjan> well sure that makes it much slower
21:54:51 <GreyKnight> hm
21:54:53 <oerjan> but shorts should wrap just as well
21:54:58 <CO2Games> Yes
21:55:02 <oerjan> and clearly they do in the inner loop
21:55:04 <CO2Games> But not at the same point
21:55:12 <GreyKnight> is your cell type typedef'd? If so you could temporarily change it to char and see what happens
21:55:24 <CO2Games> typedef'd?
21:55:53 <CO2Games> I haven't used the typedef keyword
21:56:25 <GreyKnight> that is, do you refer to your tape explicitly as "unsigned short tape[];" or use "typedef unsigned short cellvalue; cellvalue tape[];"
21:56:27 <GreyKnight> oh
21:56:36 <CO2Games> err
21:56:43 <CO2Games> tapes are actually classes
21:56:52 <GreyKnight> well, you get what I mean :-P
21:57:06 <oerjan> CO2Games: anyway you need to get beyond line 5*2^32 and a bit more for the big one
21:57:24 <CO2Games> Ok I'll look for it in my log
21:57:32 <oerjan> 21474836480
21:57:38 <CO2Games> k 1 sec
21:57:40 <GreyKnight> phreeow
21:57:59 <CO2Games> Uhh
21:58:07 <CO2Games> Is that a whole terrabyte
21:58:33 <oerjan> something like that
21:58:37 <CO2Games> jesus christ thats fucking huge
21:59:18 <CO2Games> ok well 1 sec
21:59:44 <CO2Games> 2006689 is as far as the log goes
22:00:06 <CO2Games> so 1 sec
22:01:37 <GreyKnight> I think charification might be the order of the day, to be honest :-)
22:01:45 <GreyKnight> and see if that shows it up any better
22:02:02 <GreyKnight> (with a typedef you could switch between them easily!)
22:02:41 <CO2Games> Well I can make it unsigned chars pretty easy so 1 sec
22:03:00 <oerjan> that should be fast enough
22:04:55 <CO2Games> ...
22:05:01 <CO2Games> ................................
22:05:03 <CO2Games> It worked
22:05:06 <CO2Games> wtf
22:05:10 <CO2Games> WTF
22:05:16 <oerjan> yay
22:05:22 <CO2Games> wtf did I do D:
22:05:49 <CO2Games> it works now that I changed them to unsigned chars
22:05:51 <oerjan> i guess 5*2^32 + 65536 steps is just a bit slow...
22:06:04 <oerjan> (that's my latest calculation)
22:06:09 <CO2Games> no no no it couldn't be
22:06:40 <CO2Games> I used if's to check if I was at zero and it was like I was always not.
22:07:41 <CO2Games> So it was the goddamned shit...
22:07:46 <CO2Games> well 1 sec in that case
22:09:13 * oerjan envisions some if (cell=0) ;D
22:12:19 <CO2Games> huh
22:12:38 <oerjan> (that was a joke. i hope.)
22:13:11 <CO2Games> dude you need to use ==
22:13:27 <oerjan> that _was_ the joke :D
22:13:28 <CO2Games> And I meant my if commands in drainfuck
22:13:33 <CO2Games> oh rofl
22:14:02 <CO2Games> (^0+++++++.V)
22:14:22 <CO2Games> Prints a beep without altering the current cell's contents
22:14:37 <CO2Games> Although you could also
22:14:48 <CO2Games> X0+++++++.X
22:15:00 <CO2Games> the () is an if
22:15:19 <CO2Games> it has the effect of a [. but the ) doesn't do anything but sit there
22:15:40 <CO2Games> And the opposite {}
22:15:43 <CO2Games> { does nothing
22:15:48 <CO2Games> } has the effect of ]
22:16:05 <CO2Games> So now I have while, if, do-while
22:16:20 <CO2Games> I simplified the loop
22:16:31 <CO2Games> +[>+[+]<+]
22:16:59 <CO2Games> Brainfuck did it in .02 seconds
22:17:09 <CO2Games> drainfuck is still working on it
22:17:23 <OkloThePol> many brainfuck interps parse [+] as (set cell to zero)
22:17:33 <CO2Games> Yeah mine too
22:17:46 <CO2Games> Didn't know about the wrapping until after I made the 0 though
22:17:48 <OkloThePol> or, preferably, optimize it
22:17:57 <OkloThePol> well
22:18:07 <CO2Games> although 0 is much faster
22:18:19 <CO2Games> especially in an interpreter
22:18:29 <GreyKnight> more wrapping-dependent code? I wonder how BF ever managed to get so vilely popular with all this carryon.
22:19:02 <CO2Games> Mine doesn't directly parse [+] or [-], it just goes [ then + then ] then + then ] etc.
22:19:25 <OkloThePol> CO2Games: i'm not following you
22:19:28 <CO2Games> Still gotta add X and L for my parser
22:19:41 <OkloThePol> does yours optimize [+] into a single action setting the current cell to 0?
22:19:44 <CO2Games> No
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22:19:49 <CO2Games> But I have the 0 command for that
22:19:57 <OkloThePol> err okay.
22:20:00 <CO2Games> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Drainfuck#Examples
22:20:02 <CO2Games> err
22:20:05 <CO2Games> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Drainfuck
22:20:44 <CO2Games> My parser sees [+] as three commands, not one
22:20:49 <CO2Games> same with [-]
22:21:12 <OkloThePol> i know
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22:23:32 <OkloThePol> hmm, muriel + brainfuck, all loops balanced, ^ runs tape as a bf program with a new empty tape
22:24:01 <CO2Games> Hot damn that's interesting
22:24:02 <OkloThePol> also i guess you could have 1 mean +, 2 mean - etc, so it's easier to create the code
22:24:42 <CO2Games> I use ^ to store the current cell's data into the cache
22:25:27 <OkloThePol> cache is like a one-byte buffer for temporary storing?
22:25:32 <CO2Games> Yeah
22:25:32 <OkloThePol> well one-word
22:25:36 <CO2Games> 2 bytes
22:25:39 <OkloThePol> yarrrr
22:25:54 <CO2Games> And it isn't affected by swapping tapes
22:26:08 <CO2Games> ^XV
22:26:15 <CO2Games> I just copied a byte to the other tape
22:26:17 <CO2Games> err
22:26:19 <CO2Games> a cell
22:26:25 <OkloThePol> yah
22:26:51 <CO2Games> Each tape has an independant reel, so if you start the program and >X you are still at 0
22:27:12 <CO2Games> But the other tape is at 1
22:27:28 <CO2Games> I intend to add a function to swap the data tape out
22:28:10 <CO2Games> YAY
22:28:21 <CO2Games> The loop I fed my program finished
22:28:25 <OkloThePol> CO2Games: what country are you in?
22:28:32 <CO2Games> United States
22:28:47 <CO2Games> why?
22:28:51 <OkloThePol> for some reason "reel" immediately gave it away for me that you were native
22:28:53 <OkloThePol> dunno.
22:28:55 <CO2Games> lol
22:29:13 <CO2Games> I have a 5.25" working floppy drive in my dos 6.22 computer
22:29:19 <CO2Games> right now that is
22:29:50 <CO2Games> If I could I would also have an 8" drive
22:29:58 <CO2Games> but noo they don't sell those
22:30:12 <CO2Games> I had to get my 5.25" off ebay
22:30:13 <OkloThePol> the ones commodore 64 used?
22:30:14 <CO2Games> drive that is
22:30:23 <CO2Games> They use 5.25"
22:30:27 <OkloThePol> oh
22:31:08 <CO2Games> Now Playing: Mutato Muzika - N. Cortex
22:32:10 <CO2Games> I love the crash bandicoot 2 background music
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22:38:56 <TuTheSho> .0
22:40:21 <oklofok> o
22:40:35 <GreyKnight> .o0o.
22:44:04 <oerjan> _.00._
22:54:01 <CO2Games> Alright I've got a working drainfuck-specific program now
22:54:08 <CO2Games> drainfuck::{++++++++++>,----------}@>[.>]E
23:07:25 <TuTheSho> cool
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23:36:01 <GreyKnight> finally, I was half-tempted to /nick GreyTheKnight for a while there
23:36:55 <GreyKnight> Unlambda is neat, maybe I should roll together a program to interpret or compile it
23:37:04 <GreyKnight> hmm effort
23:37:31 <oklofok> unlambda rocks ass
23:40:06 <tusho> compiling unlambda is quite difficult
23:40:07 <tusho> due to d
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