←2008-09-16 2008-09-17 2008-09-18→ ↑2008 ↑all
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01:28:01 <oerjan> Oh great prophet, will I get any cake today?
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03:07:55 <CO2Games> Horray for brainstack
03:08:23 <CO2Games> It has FUNCTIONS :D
03:08:32 <CO2Games> And MACROS
03:08:58 <CO2Games> #i10{++++++++++}
03:08:59 <CO2Games> !i32{%i10%%i10%%i10%++}
03:09:00 <CO2Games> (,[*i32**i32**i32**i32*.0,])
03:09:47 <CO2Games> # declares a macro, % inserts it
03:10:34 <moozilla> you should only be able to define functions and macros to symbols
03:10:43 <moozilla> or else it isnt esoteric enough :P
03:10:48 <CO2Games> ! declares a function, * calls it
03:10:58 <CO2Games> pfft
03:11:19 <moozilla> or i guess you could just compile into brainfuck
03:11:57 <CO2Games> why D:
03:14:06 <CO2Games> it turns into !i32{++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++}
03:14:08 <CO2Games> (,[*i32**i32**i32**i32*.0,])
03:15:50 <CakeProphet> you could really just combine function and macro
03:15:58 <CakeProphet> if all a function does is textually inserts its parameters
03:16:15 <CakeProphet> which is what it appears to do
03:17:07 <CO2Games> what?
03:17:30 <CO2Games> Macro is just for cleaning up code
03:17:52 <CO2Games> functions actually CALL and RET
03:18:11 <CO2Games> BSFunci32:
03:18:11 <CO2Games> MOV EAX,[pos]
03:18:11 <CO2Games> INC [tape+EAX]
03:18:12 <CO2Games> ...
03:18:13 <CO2Games> MOV EAX,[pos]
03:18:14 <CO2Games> INC [tape+EAX]
03:18:15 <CO2Games> RET
03:18:16 <CO2Games> start:
03:18:31 <CO2Games> NOP
03:18:32 <CO2Games> MOV EAX,[pos]
03:18:33 <CO2Games> CMP [tape+EAX],0
03:18:34 <CO2Games> JE BSWhile1E
03:18:35 <CO2Games> BSWhile1B:
03:18:36 <CO2Games> CALL BSFunci32
03:18:38 <CO2Games> CALL BSFunci32
03:18:38 <CO2Games> CALL BSFunci32
03:18:55 <CO2Games> CALL BSFunci32
03:18:55 <CO2Games> NOP
03:18:56 <CO2Games> NOP
03:18:56 <CO2Games> NOP
03:18:57 <CO2Games> MOV EAX,[pos]
03:18:58 <CO2Games> CMP [tape+EAX],0
03:18:59 <CO2Games> JNE BSWhile1B
03:19:00 <CO2Games> BSWhile1E:
03:19:15 <CO2Games> end start
03:21:31 <oerjan> the question is whether a macro can do anything a function cannot
03:21:57 <oerjan> (functions could recurse, i hope)
03:31:47 <CO2Games> If assembly can recurse functions, so can this
03:33:29 <CO2Games> Unfortunately functions don't get their own tape.
03:34:09 <oerjan> so then any macro could be assembled as if it was a function instead, and the behavior of the program would still be the same
03:34:36 <CO2Games> Wait, functions can't recurse?
03:34:48 <oerjan> sure, i think
03:34:59 <CO2Games> How would a macro recurse?
03:35:14 <oerjan> it cannot. but it cannot do anything a function cannot, either
03:35:30 <CO2Games> true...
03:35:48 <CO2Games> macros are essentially #defines in c++
03:36:06 <CO2Games> Except they don't take parameters
03:36:09 <oerjan> so i thought
03:37:01 <CO2Games> Although they can pop from the stack, and push back onto it.
03:37:04 <oerjan> you could let them take parameters, that would be a difference. easier to implement than for functions, too
03:37:23 <CO2Games> hmm...
03:37:25 <oerjan> (i think)
03:37:52 <CO2Games> I could give functions their own tape to work with.
03:38:26 <CO2Games> Implementing parameters on macros sounds interesting
03:39:19 <CO2Games> Although I'm not sure how they would work
03:40:52 <CO2Games> I mean macros are exactly the same except they are inline instead of seperate code.
03:42:11 <CO2Games> Here's an interesting ordeal...
03:42:56 <CO2Games> ...how would parameters be passed to the macro?
03:43:09 <CO2Games> Obviously not through the stack like functions.
03:43:26 <oerjan> they would be expanded inline of course
03:43:39 <CO2Games> expanded inline?
03:43:48 <oerjan> like C's #define is one way
03:44:10 <CO2Games> There isn't a parameter list for brainstack macros though
03:44:39 <oerjan> so it would require some added syntax
03:44:48 <CO2Games> hmm...
03:45:13 <CO2Games> ok, so how would these parameters be accessed?
03:45:39 <CO2Games> inside the macro I mean
03:45:39 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ...if I'm not identified..
03:46:05 <oerjan> C's #define does it by name, you might access them as if they were macros themselves. or you could do it by argument position.
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03:47:49 <CO2Games> oh, so something like %macroname|9|+% for the call?
03:48:14 <oerjan> perhaps
03:48:37 <oerjan> yeah that would be the wiki style wouldn't it
03:48:54 <oerjan> (mediawiki templates)
03:49:11 <oerjan> (or resembling it)
03:54:53 <CO2Games> and then maybe something like #macroname{@looper$u:@@MOV ECX,$0@+@loopc looper@}
03:55:32 <CO2Games> $u for a unique id, incrementing every time the macro is used
03:55:42 <CO2Games> So we don't get label conflicts
03:55:58 <CO2Games> $0 for the 0th argument...
03:56:00 <CO2Games> oh shit
03:56:11 <CO2Games> #macroname{@looper$u:@@MOV ECX,$0@$1@loopc looper@}
03:56:12 <CO2Games> there
03:56:51 <oerjan> shouldn't there be a $u at the end too
03:57:01 <CO2Games> so %macroname|9|+% increments the ...oh right
03:57:09 <CO2Games> #macroname{@looper$u:@@MOV ECX,$0@$1@loopc looper$u@}
03:57:20 <CO2Games> so %macroname|9|+% increments the cell 9 times
03:57:53 <CO2Games> %macroname|57|V% pops the stack 57 times
03:58:47 <CO2Games> @ surrounds inline assembly
03:58:52 <CO2Games> Which I should add right now
04:00:50 <CO2Games> ok, added
04:00:51 <CO2Games> case '@':fputs(gets_until('@'),asmout);break;
04:01:35 <oerjan> gets O_O
04:02:07 * oerjan runs away screaming
04:02:27 <CO2Games> I wrote a function that uses getchar and keeps doing that until it gets the given character
04:02:53 <CO2Games> And then dumps it out as a string
04:03:00 <CO2Games> Err wait no it does fgetc
04:03:22 <oerjan> but where are you putting it? gets is just begging for buffer overrun
04:03:46 <CO2Games> what?
04:04:01 <CO2Games> It's used by the converter
04:04:22 <oerjan> how is the string allocated, i mean
04:04:35 <CO2Games> char buffer [1024]
04:04:52 <CO2Games> Yeah yeah I know I know
04:05:20 <CO2Games> blah blah string std vector blah buffer overflow blah segfault win32 blah blah access violation, I GET IT.
04:05:39 <CO2Games> I chose char arrays, and I stuck to it
04:06:10 <CO2Games> But hey, I'm using vectors for the macros, and strings for the macro contents
04:06:29 <CO2Games> uhh except the names
04:06:33 <CO2Games> the names are 256 chars
04:10:16 * oerjan does a little segfault da
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05:06:55 <CO2Games> Holy shit, can I eat you?
05:10:13 <GregorR> calamari: What's your involvement with Qemu?
05:11:13 <calamari> hi
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05:11:32 <GregorR> calamari: Oh yeah ... blah blah blah pleasantries etc :P
05:12:05 <calamari> GregorR: I use it.. and they needed someone to host the FAQ.. so I made it into a wiki, and it went from there
05:12:22 <calamari> I haven't contributed much content.. mostly grammar and link fixing
05:12:25 <GregorR> Okidoke. Just had seen the URL and was wondering :P
05:13:13 <calamari> although I had to use non-free virtualbox to communicate with my timex data link watch :( qemu usb kept giving data errors
05:13:26 <GregorR> Durn :(
05:13:40 <calamari> I gave it a good try tho
05:13:51 <calamari> qemu is faster
05:14:03 <GregorR> I'm using an array of Qemus to build things across multiple platforms automatically ^^
05:14:18 <calamari> it installed windows 98 at least 3 times as quickly as vbox
05:14:24 <calamari> as->more
05:14:44 <calamari> need to port bf to my watch
05:14:50 <GregorR> Whoot.
05:15:02 <calamari> 125 bytes of ram
05:15:28 <calamari> plus whatever I can reclaim from my 900 bytes of program code
05:15:43 <GregorR> 125 bytes D-8
05:16:35 <calamari> well, bf interpreters aren't terribly large
05:16:46 <calamari> so I'm hoping to get at least another 500 bytes
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05:16:54 <GregorR> Is the SDK actually provided by Timex, or is it a user hack?
05:17:03 <calamari> provided, amazingly
05:17:10 <GregorR> That is amazing.
05:17:14 <GregorR> My watch is nonprogrammable :(
05:17:29 <calamari> and they even coded a build system.. windows only, but I guess the watch was codeveloped my microsoft so I can't blame them
05:17:33 <calamari> my->by
05:17:56 <calamari> I guess the earlier ones even had microsoft printed on the face
05:18:14 <calamari> maybe that's why I didn't look into it.. hmm
05:27:16 <GregorR> My watch is ultrapowerful, but still no SDK *sigh*
05:27:26 <calamari> which?
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05:28:07 <GregorR> http://www.chinavasion.com/product_info.php/pName/super-cool-mobile-phone-wrist-watch/
05:28:35 <calamari> you got one of those? hahaha
05:29:08 <calamari> does it work well as a phone?
05:29:13 <GregorR> Extremely.
05:29:20 <GregorR> I consider it to have been an excellent buy.
05:29:30 <calamari> neat.. whats the typical battery life like?
05:31:11 <GregorR> One day with moderate phone use, two days on average.
05:31:30 <GregorR> It comes with two batteries, which is nice since you can just swap them out whenever and never have the phone off for long.
05:31:49 <calamari> anyone working on hacking it?
05:32:02 <GregorR> Not to my knowledge.
05:34:29 <calamari> well it might be possible.. does it allow firmware upgrades?
05:40:27 <bsmntbombdood> i need a hash function that incorporates something like levenshtein distance
05:40:40 <bsmntbombdood> strings with a levenshtein distance of less than n hash the same
05:42:25 <bsmntbombdood> or s/levenshten/similar algo/
05:50:06 <bsmntbombdood> OOOOOH, generate the set of strings, sort it and hash the concatenation
05:50:08 <bsmntbombdood> of course
05:51:31 <oerjan> um this sounds like everything must hash the same, by transitivity
05:52:04 <bsmntbombdood> oh
05:52:05 <bsmntbombdood> duh
05:52:06 <bsmntbombdood> :(
05:52:43 <bsmntbombdood> except not
05:54:22 <calamari> bbl, tired
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06:33:47 <CO2Games> oerjan: Ok I think everything's working now
06:33:53 <CO2Games> But I need to test the converter
06:34:31 <oerjan> aye
06:41:17 <bsmntbombdood> ok i was wrong
06:42:58 <oerjan> people often are
06:43:32 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder if this is even possible
06:44:18 <oerjan> depends what "this" is
06:45:00 <bsmntbombdood> i need to find the fuzzy-union of two sets in O(n)
06:46:58 <oerjan> i don't know what that is
06:49:21 <bsmntbombdood> ...i meant interesection
06:50:06 <oerjan> right, there was something intuitively trivial about that union
06:53:29 <CO2Games> God damnit
06:53:38 <CO2Games> I can't figure out a way to get nested loops working
06:55:26 <Deewiant> O(m+n) then for two sets, or what?
06:55:40 <CO2Games> My brainstack converter
06:56:29 <bsmntbombdood> Deewiant: yeah
06:58:48 <bsmntbombdood> unfuzzy intersection is easy, you just use a hash table
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09:45:40 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | And this somehow has to do with /translating/ the specs?.
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11:52:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I know this is picking at irrelevant details but...
11:52:11 <AnMaster> GOOD: 1y and 5y do not disagree about =
11:52:11 <AnMaster> No reliable cross-platform method of testing: assume = works
11:52:24 <AnMaster> well you could test it in this case, check that it reflects :P
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11:52:33 <AnMaster> since y indicates it is not implemented
11:52:37 <AnMaster> bbl
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17:20:29 <AnMaster> bbl
17:54:56 <Deewiant> heh, Mike is working hard getting Rc/Funge-98 to behave on MycoTRDS the same way CCBI does :-)
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18:21:54 <psygnisfive> hey tusho
18:21:57 <psygnisfive> hey oklobol
18:22:35 <psygnisfive> hey oerjan
18:22:38 <psygnisfive> hey anmaster
18:22:43 <psygnisfive> hey pikhq
18:22:44 <Deewiant> hey psygnisfive
18:22:50 <psygnisfive> hey deewiant
18:22:52 <psygnisfive> :P
18:23:30 <GregorR> I guess I don't get a "hey." *sobs uncontrollably*
18:24:06 <ae5ir> GregorR: hey.
18:24:18 <Deewiant> hey all
18:24:23 <Deewiant> done, problem solved.
18:24:52 <GregorR> X-P
18:24:59 <tusho> ae5ir: who are you
18:25:12 <ae5ir> I am the terror that flaps in the night
18:25:14 <ae5ir> not really.
18:25:34 <ae5ir> used to come in here maybe a couple years ago
18:25:36 <ae5ir> as Robdgreat
18:25:38 <Deewiant> no? you totally had me going there
18:27:27 <GregorR> No way that was on the order of years.
18:29:06 <psygnisfive> i dont know you much gregor D:
18:30:28 <ae5ir> 10/10/05 was when I registered the nick
18:31:53 <ae5ir> and iirc this channel was the reason I first came to this network
18:33:44 <GregorR> I am an enigma.
18:35:02 <ae5ir> better than an enema
18:35:06 <GregorR> I am an enigma wrapped in a mystery wrapped in questions wrapped in a warm flour tortilla served with chips and guacamole for only $4.95 for a limited time only.
18:35:43 <Slereah_> Here's a five!
18:35:50 <ae5ir> plus tax
18:36:12 <Slereah_> Taxes?
18:36:16 <Slereah_> RON PAUL!
18:36:19 <Slereah_> PLON RAU!
18:36:32 <GregorR> No sales tax in OR :)
18:36:43 <GregorR> (I'm not in OR, but my point stands)
18:37:17 <ae5ir> true? yes. relevant? perhaps not.
18:37:18 <ae5ir> ;)
18:37:32 <GregorR> TOUCHÉ SIR
18:37:45 <ae5ir> :D
18:50:33 <oerjan> i'll have that and a medium coke, thank you
18:51:04 <tusho> oerjan: which kind of coke?
18:51:17 <oerjan> zero
18:52:13 <oerjan> it's either that or infinity
18:53:01 <tusho> oerjan: that is not quite what i was referring to
18:53:19 <oerjan> ah. maybe.
18:53:25 <oerjan> the legal kind.
18:54:02 <oerjan> boring, i know.
18:56:26 <oerjan> also, i am sure i've seen robdgreat earlier this year. i kept confusing him with robert.
18:56:39 <oerjan> who isn't here much either?
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19:01:09 <ae5ir> yeah I've been in here since back when, just not very frequently
19:05:49 <tusho> I am confusing robdgreat with RodgerTheGreat
19:05:52 <tusho> rodgort: Ok, who are YOU?
19:06:06 <tusho> SirDayBat: Or you!
19:06:35 <oerjan> SirDayBat smells finnish
19:06:44 <SirDayBat> yeah
19:06:57 <ae5ir> heh yeah I came back after a long absence and he accused me of stealing his nick -_-
19:07:18 <GregorR> OH YEAH
19:07:21 <GregorR> That's my confusion.
19:07:36 <tusho> ae5ir: rodgerthegreat is an asshole, so i'm not surprised
19:07:39 <oerjan> s/robert/rodger/
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20:36:07 <fizzie> Here's what graphviz thinks of fungot's fingerprint-loading parts: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/bg.png
20:36:07 <fungot> fizzie: thanks for your help
20:36:26 <fizzie> fungot: I'm not sure that graph will help you any, but sure, no problem.
20:36:26 <fungot> fizzie: hold on a second
20:38:35 <Deewiant> fizzie: did you do that yourself or generate it somehow
20:39:28 <Deewiant> I guess there's some generation involved in any case, but you know what I meant
20:41:24 <fizzie> Wrote a bit of Java (since oklopol was talking about it the other day) to do a tiny amount of static Funge source code analysis.
20:42:28 <Deewiant> neat - what can it do? checks for # _ or something or is it more clever?
20:42:56 <fizzie> Basically there's a "collect cells to a graph" function which, when coming across things like _| or "# followed by something that might reflect" calls itself recursively to handle the two branches, and then some more code to combine "uninteresting" (single in-edge, single out-edge type) vertices to longer strings.
20:43:39 <Deewiant> cool :-)
20:43:49 <fizzie> Currently there's branching only for _| and the #-reflect case, but I guess I'll need to add some sort of heuristic for the "j" jump tables, as well as '?', if I intend to be able to pass whole fungot through it.
20:43:49 <fungot> fizzie: it's n being shifted by k. dick fellow writes crap. at least i can
20:44:30 <fizzie> Currently it gets confused somewhere in fungot sources. Must fix later. Should go to sleep early today, so maybe tomorrow.
20:44:30 <fungot> fizzie: don't worry about that stuff.
20:44:43 <fizzie> fungot: You're being surprisingly coherent today.
20:54:06 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Wrote a bit of Java (since oklopol was talking about it the other day) to do a tiny amount of static Funge source code analysis. <-- wow?
20:54:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, where can you see the source?
20:54:44 <AnMaster> find*
20:55:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, also you need to handle x and w, + some other
20:56:00 <AnMaster> of course when the program is self modifying it will be harder
20:56:10 <Deewiant> it's impossible
20:56:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes at least unless you can see no code cell get overwritten
20:56:45 <Deewiant> and you can't see that, it's impossible.
20:56:51 <AnMaster> you could tell the analyser "all stores in negative funge space are for data"
20:56:58 <AnMaster> give it that hint
20:57:06 <tusho> Deewiant: not impossible
20:57:07 <tusho> superturing
20:57:12 <AnMaster> and make the actual source code non-modifying
20:57:53 <Deewiant> tusho: i.e. impossible. :-P
20:57:55 <AnMaster> I agree there will always be cases it *can't* handle of course
20:58:03 <tusho> Deewiant: :D
20:58:06 <AnMaster> but you can make it more or less good
20:58:11 <tusho> really want a goddamn oracle machine
20:58:12 <tusho> also
20:58:14 <tusho> wanna write stuff with language.c
20:58:15 <tusho> like
20:58:19 <tusho> graph of control flow in c
20:58:26 <tusho> have functions be bubbles, and flowcharts inside
20:58:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how come a human can work out the flow of such a program then?
20:58:31 <AnMaster> are humans super turing?
20:58:33 <tusho> with little arrows pointing to other bubbles and back again
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20:58:35 <tusho> into the flowchar
20:58:37 <tusho> t
20:58:38 <tusho> AnMaster: no
20:58:38 <AnMaster> or do we just execute them in our head?
20:58:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: a human can't do it either.
20:58:42 <tusho> AnMaster: no, we just have reasoning skills
20:58:45 <tusho> they are not perfect
20:58:49 <AnMaster> tusho, indeed
20:58:50 <tusho> we cannot do it for all cases
20:58:54 <AnMaster> very true
20:58:59 <tusho> and most likely our reasoning could be simulated by a computer
20:59:00 <Deewiant> and most likely humans do execute them in their heads.
20:59:01 <tusho> we just don't know how
20:59:04 <tusho> but yes
20:59:08 <Deewiant> I know I do. :-P
20:59:09 <tusho> we execute in our heads in a limited form
20:59:23 <AnMaster> yes, follow the code flow to see what happens
20:59:57 <AnMaster> what about "formally verified" programs. Obviously someone must have reasoned a lot about those?
21:00:17 <AnMaster> no clue how you actually "formally verify" a program
21:00:23 <oklopimp> i wonder if on any other media there's been as much leasurely chatter about turing completeness as in here
21:00:47 <tusho> AnMaster: they are just theorem proving systems
21:00:51 <tusho> the theorems could be written badly
21:00:58 <Deewiant> or you can prove something yourself
21:00:59 <tusho> -> same problem
21:01:05 <tusho> Deewiant: that's even more flawfilled though
21:01:12 <Deewiant> flawfilled? :-P
21:01:16 <fizzie> Yes, I'm just trying to make it good enough to handle fungot, not any sort of funge-98 program. I don't think I'll even do 'x' (even though in many cases a simple constant-folding-type of thing would work) since I don't use it.
21:01:35 <tusho> those c graphs would be win
21:01:35 <tusho> <3
21:02:21 <oklopimp> AnMaster: formally verifying is proving things work as they're supposed to
21:02:32 <oklopimp> proving is a vast subject with tons of techniques
21:02:45 <oklopimp> some of which you most likely are aware of
21:02:52 <Deewiant> induction, for instance
21:03:04 <oklopimp> that's one of the techniques he doesn't understand
21:03:10 <Deewiant> >_<
21:03:26 * oklopimp is a confident guesser
21:03:37 <tusho> agreed with oklopimp on the not understanding
21:03:37 <tusho> :P
21:04:42 <oklopimp> Deewiant: induction isn't really something many people use in their thinking unless been taught to
21:05:15 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> induction, for instance <-- certainly, I used it in math in school
21:05:22 <oklopimp> (i invented it for a math test once, but well i'm a pimp that's just how i roll)
21:05:28 <oklopimp> damn
21:05:31 <oklopimp> i was wrong
21:05:38 <AnMaster> at least if it is what I think it is in Swedish
21:05:45 <AnMaster> "bevis genom induktion"
21:05:57 <oklopimp> it's what you think it is
21:06:17 <tusho> some people do not understand induction
21:06:23 <tusho> therefore AnMaster does not understand induction
21:06:59 <AnMaster> like, f(n) = .... for any integer n always returns (n-1)/n, then you prove that it is true for n = 1, and then that if it is true for n = 1, then it have to be true for any integer n
21:07:17 <oklopimp> err
21:07:30 <AnMaster> err?
21:07:32 <oklopimp> more like if it's true for all integers up to a certain number, it will be true for that number + 1
21:07:54 <AnMaster> oklopimp, right, what I meant. Except I'm just home from Aikido, so kind of sleepy
21:08:12 <oklopimp> yeah, i'm sure you get it, i just found your explanation confusing
21:08:28 <oklopimp> aaaaanyway, induction is one of the ways you can verify algos
21:08:35 <AnMaster> oklopimp, probably since I'm almost sleeping on the keyboard
21:08:50 <AnMaster> so heading to bed shortly
21:08:57 <oklopimp> have fun, i just slept like 4 hours
21:09:18 <AnMaster> oklopimp, well did you just came home from a two hour session of Aikido?
21:09:35 <oklopimp> no, i just woke up from a 4 hour sleep
21:09:40 <AnMaster> ah well
21:09:40 <oklopimp> i did aikido as a kid
21:09:42 <oklopimp> it was fun
21:09:45 <oklopimp> i kicked ass
21:09:47 <oklopimp> then i quit
21:09:50 <oklopimp> see you later ->
21:09:55 <AnMaster> oklopimp, you quit? why?
21:10:10 <oklopimp> (actually i guess you don't kick much ass in aikido)
21:10:18 <AnMaster> oklopimp, indeed you don't
21:10:23 <oklopimp> i quit because i was a kid and i got bored with things
21:10:27 <oklopimp> shop ->
21:10:36 <AnMaster> I suspected you meant it metaphorically(sp?)
21:10:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can you explain why Finnish ppl seem to use "->" for "afk"?
21:10:51 <AnMaster> at least all in here
21:11:19 <tusho> AnMaster: stop ripping me
21:11:20 <tusho> i asked that first
21:11:21 <tusho> like 5 times
21:11:27 <AnMaster> tusho, did you get any answer?
21:11:33 <tusho> i think its just the culture, from what i gather
21:11:38 <AnMaster> tusho, and yes I know you asked too
21:11:39 <tusho> irc started in finland, right?
21:11:45 <AnMaster> it did
21:11:48 <tusho> so it just kind of grew, someone used it, it continued, but then we imported our chatspeak
21:11:53 <tusho> and ... the divide just kinda grew
21:12:00 <tusho> so finnish irc channels use it
21:12:01 <AnMaster> anyway then I'm going to start using "<=" at the beginning of lines or something
21:12:02 <tusho> but english ones don't
21:12:07 <AnMaster> oooh no I got a better one
21:12:08 <tusho> so when finns are on english ones
21:12:10 <tusho> they use what's natural to them
21:12:12 <tusho> so they use ->
21:12:13 <tusho> brb
21:13:53 <AnMaster> well I'm heading to bed now
21:13:54 <AnMaster> Exeunt
21:15:14 <fizzie> Hey, the funge-graphery actually helped me notice a bug: there in ^save if 'O' fails, the code will go nowhere.
21:16:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, ok, pastebin the code please
21:16:35 <AnMaster> does it have some nice GUI btw?
21:17:34 <fizzie> There's a lot of files, and no GUI, and I won't be sharing the code just yet, still playing with it a bit.
21:17:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, aww, would like to see it
21:18:20 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
21:19:00 <fizzie> Are you sure? It's Java, of all things.
21:19:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I got a jdk 1.6 around
21:19:24 <AnMaster> for other apps I need
21:19:37 <AnMaster> no I don't like coding java, but I accept using it
21:19:55 <AnMaster> it is not my primary choice no, but if that app is good it is ok
21:20:21 <AnMaster> (basically I need it to run a level editor on a game where I develop on the server code, which is in C)
21:21:13 <fizzie> Okay, I've got a 4920x15464-pixel image of fungot sources made with that thing; it might be the buggy. http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/fungot.png
21:21:41 <AnMaster> warning do not open in firefox
21:21:58 <AnMaster> it crashed
21:21:58 <fizzie> I just opened it in firefox.
21:22:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, firefox 2.x or 3.x?
21:22:25 <fizzie> 3.something.
21:22:36 <AnMaster> ah still 2.x due to stable in distro
21:22:44 <fizzie> 3.0.2, OS X.
21:23:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, there are a lot of empty bubbles?
21:23:27 <fizzie> Yes, I think it's because the node-combinatator removes <>^v from those nodes, but isn't intelligent enough to remove empty nodes.
21:23:28 <AnMaster> also I would like to try it on some smaller program
21:23:30 <AnMaster> to understand it
21:23:31 <fizzie> Must fixery that.
21:24:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/eg/life.bf
21:24:28 <AnMaster> no clue if it is too self modifying
21:24:49 <AnMaster> since I *can't* reason about that program
21:25:37 <fizzie> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/life.png says dot.
21:26:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, where is the *start* node
21:26:27 <fizzie> There in the middle.
21:26:35 <fizzie> It's the one with a incoming "->" from nowhere.
21:26:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, well that doesn't make it a lot clearer
21:27:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about the program in http://bzr.kuonet.org/cfunge/trunk/annotate/418?file_id=count.b98-20080502072851-9xxna708q7kcdybc-1
21:27:14 <fizzie> Must remove those empty nodes, it'll be better then. And neato would produce nicer graphs except that it needs some serious adjustments to make nodes not overlap.
21:27:14 <AnMaster> it is html that link
21:27:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, ^
21:27:33 <AnMaster> very simple program
21:28:37 <AnMaster> however it is golfed for space
21:28:49 <AnMaster> more or less
21:28:53 <fizzie> count.png there.
21:28:55 <AnMaster> could be smaller I bet
21:29:28 -!- Corun has joined.
21:29:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah it fails at program wrapping around edge
21:29:43 <AnMaster> which that one does for space reasons
21:30:05 <AnMaster> see on line 3, .:<
21:30:09 <AnMaster> that one will wrap
21:30:16 <AnMaster> wait or does it fail?
21:30:18 <AnMaster> hard to say
21:30:32 <fizzie> It should work.
21:30:40 <fizzie> Doesn't that ".:" go to the correct 1+... node?
21:30:49 <fizzie> count2.png is how neato layouts it.
21:30:50 <AnMaster> ah yes it does
21:31:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, you mean upside down compared to program
21:31:12 <AnMaster> I find count.png easier to read
21:31:36 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando").
21:32:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I think I can understand count.png since I wrote the original program
21:32:22 <fizzie> dot does hierarchic graphs better, since it gives a "rank" for each node.
21:32:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, you mean count.png? yeah count.png is better
21:32:58 <AnMaster> straight lines too
21:33:09 <AnMaster> I mean vertically
21:33:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, try antialias, it would help a lot
21:33:30 <AnMaster> on the lines and the circles
21:34:18 <fizzie> If you insist on looking at the sources, they're at http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/bg.tar.gz -- builds with ant, uses Runtime.exec to invoke Graphviz. And is very very incomplete and work-in-progress.
21:34:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, I didn't insist at looking at source, but I insisted at running it
21:35:25 <AnMaster> BUILD SUCCESSFUL
21:35:26 <AnMaster> Total time: 6 seconds
21:35:31 <AnMaster> for 6 files heh
21:35:34 <AnMaster> err
21:35:35 <AnMaster> 8 files
21:35:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, how do I run it? there is no jar file?
21:36:32 <fizzie> Haven't bothered to add a "dist" target to the build.xml.
21:36:48 <fizzie> Just do "java -cp build befgraph.BefGraph program.b98 output.png" in the top dir.
21:37:11 <fizzie> It is, after all, not a distribution yet.
21:37:35 <AnMaster> wow
21:37:40 <AnMaster> I just found a bug in cfunge...
21:37:45 <AnMaster> wtf
21:37:46 * AnMaster fixes
21:37:58 <AnMaster> it ignored - for integer input...
21:38:43 <AnMaster> wait
21:38:48 <AnMaster> so does ccbi?
21:39:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, are implementations supposed to ignore - in &?
21:39:08 <AnMaster> Please input a number: -4
21:39:08 <AnMaster> UNDEF: got 4 which is hopefully correct.
21:39:11 <AnMaster> for both cfunge and ccbi
21:39:29 <AnMaster> Please input a number: -4
21:39:29 <AnMaster> UNDEF: got -4 which is hopefully correct.
21:39:31 <AnMaster> for efunge
21:39:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, which is right I wonder?
21:40:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, lets see what happens on mycology
21:40:38 <AnMaster> $ file mycology.png
21:40:38 <AnMaster> mycology.png: PNG image data, 1859 x 1832, 8-bit/color RGBA, non-interlaced
21:40:48 <fizzie> That's surprisingly small.
21:40:58 <AnMaster> lots of nodes on each other
21:41:10 <fizzie> Uh, I think I left "neato" there as the layout engine.
21:41:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, where would I change it?
21:41:22 <fizzie> You can change it in BefGraph.java, just s/neato/dot/
21:42:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, it seems to be antialiased at least
21:42:02 <fizzie> - is a digit, so I guess "4" is more right: & specs say "reads and discards characters until it encounters decimal digit characters".
21:42:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, well hm
21:42:50 <fizzie> I think the graphviz version at the SuSE box I was running it on might be a bit old and not support any antialiasationary stuff. Not sure.
21:42:53 <AnMaster> $ file mycology.png
21:42:53 <AnMaster> mycology.png: PNG image data, 1856 x 5019, 8-bit/color RGBA, non-interlaced
21:42:58 <AnMaster> smaller?
21:43:02 <AnMaster> wait
21:43:05 <AnMaster> very very wide?
21:43:16 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:43:16 <AnMaster> ah no tall
21:43:24 <AnMaster> so that is Y x X
21:43:26 <AnMaster> not X x Y
21:43:28 <AnMaster> weird
21:43:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, my dot seems to do antialiasing
21:43:47 <AnMaster> weird
21:44:01 <AnMaster> looks way nicer than the output you got
21:45:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://omploader.org/vcjZl
21:46:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, somehow I don't think that graph is complete
21:48:42 <fizzie> The dot I have at work is very very old, but since I started that program there, I've been running it there too.
21:48:58 <fizzie> And it might easily get confused by unexpected code flow.
21:49:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, better check where it gets confused
21:49:16 <AnMaster> I want to see everything up to y :D
21:49:53 <AnMaster> oh wait it hits the "p does not modify space" I think
21:50:19 <AnMaster> well you can't solve that
21:50:31 <fizzie> Yes, self-modification is no good.
21:50:46 <fizzie> Also it doesn't do x and ; yet; at least ';' is used in mycology. Although ; is easy.
21:51:00 <AnMaster> yes it is
21:51:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about []?
21:51:29 <AnMaster> also the p check is way earlier
21:51:34 <fizzie> Those neither. Hey, fungot graph must be also semi-broken because of that.
21:51:42 <fizzie> There's at least one ] in there.
21:51:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, w?
21:51:51 <fizzie> Nope. Don't use 'w' in fungot. :p
21:51:58 <AnMaster> why not?
21:52:00 <AnMaster> I like w
21:52:01 <AnMaster> very useful
21:52:17 <fizzie> Sure, I just have my Befunge-93 roots.
21:52:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, if you use [] then...?
21:56:37 <fizzie> That was just because I had to rearrange some code and got a >< pair that would've needed to overlap that was solvable with a single ].
22:00:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, err I mean those two instructions
22:00:12 <AnMaster> not that specific construct
22:00:58 <fizzie> Yes, I had a "coming from up, do <; coming from down, do >" case which I did with a ]; I think that's the only place where fungot uses either [ or ]. Although there might be a second place somewhere.
22:01:50 <fizzie> I rather like the generated fungot.png scaled to 25% of the size. It sort-of looks very enterprisey. Now if I could just fix the empty-node-removal. I thought I got it right, but now it got confused because an empty node had two outgoing edges, which shouldn't really be possible.
22:02:43 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/xVQ6FN79.html <-- hm nice format
22:04:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I'd like to see the static analysis as complete as possible
22:04:51 <AnMaster> would be very nice
22:06:24 <fizzie> I'll do some improvements, but I doubt I'll care enough to start analyzing the state of the stack, for example. I did do that once for a Befunge-93 compiler which did constant-folding, though.
22:06:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, nice!
22:07:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, except well that would not work for self modifying programs
22:07:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, but I'd like to see the code
22:07:30 <AnMaster> I think you could JIT it though
22:08:14 <fizzie> I'm not sure where I have the code.
22:09:09 <fizzie> It was also written in Java, and it was supposed to target the Java VM so that it could recompile stuff when self-modification occurs. Got bored midway through and only did a proof-of-concept code-generation backend that generated C code.
22:10:00 <AnMaster> ehehe?
22:11:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, also most funge programs tend to use self modification to store variables at least
22:11:24 <AnMaster> so lazy recompilation
22:12:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, in fact I planned to rewrite that count program to use self modification and a '
22:12:58 <fizzie> That's curious, I enabled the empty-node filtering and fungot.png grew in size.
22:14:17 <fizzie> I guess it's because I also added [ and ] instructions.
22:15:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, where can I check out last version?
22:15:51 <AnMaster> I got bzr, hg, darcs, svn, cvs, git and monotone installed
22:16:02 <tusho> i still wanna make that c control flow graph it would pwnz0r
22:16:24 <AnMaster> tusho, would certainly be interesting, but aren't there already such things?
22:16:30 <tusho> probably
22:16:32 <tusho> don't care
22:16:34 <tusho> mine is better
22:16:43 <AnMaster> tusho, go code it, maybe after botte?
22:17:18 <tusho> i don't actually give a shit about botte right now since nobody is actually in a situation requiring it
22:17:22 <tusho> i might code it if i can be bothered, that would be something
22:20:00 -!- ihope has joined.
22:23:04 <fizzie> AnMaster: I guess you can do a "git clone http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/git/befgraph" but don't expect updates very often.
22:23:14 <fizzie> I guess I'll sleep now.
22:23:22 <tusho> warning: AnMaster hates git
22:23:36 <fizzie> Well, git was listed there in the list of acceptable methods.
22:25:01 <AnMaster> hm
22:25:08 <AnMaster> tusho, I accept using git if I *have* to
22:25:10 <AnMaster> so ok
22:25:24 * tusho points a gun at AnMaster's head
22:25:28 <tusho> Use git for all your projects.
22:25:32 <AnMaster> never
22:25:34 <tusho> Or- bang.
22:25:34 <AnMaster> and busy
22:25:50 <tusho> I guess death doesn't fall under the umbrella of have to.
22:27:41 * AnMaster points a gun at tusho's head
22:27:49 <AnMaster> Never use git again, use mercurial or bzr!
22:27:54 <AnMaster> Or- bang.
22:27:58 <tusho> Sure.
22:28:04 <AnMaster> really?
22:28:13 <tusho> AnMaster: No, because you didn't really point a gun at my head.
22:28:20 <tusho> But I was acting in the context of the fictional gun-pointing
22:28:23 <AnMaster> ah
22:28:24 <tusho> as IRC is a virtual environment
22:28:29 <tusho> If you pointed the gun at my head in real life, yes, of course I would.
22:28:33 <oerjan> that's what you _think_
22:28:38 <AnMaster> tusho, well I was breaking the fifth wall before ;P
22:28:40 <tusho> oerjan: dun dun dun
22:28:44 <tusho> AnMaster: Fourth wall.
22:28:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, no no
22:28:49 <AnMaster> and no tusho
22:28:51 <AnMaster> maybe sixth
22:28:58 <AnMaster> not not fourth
22:29:23 <AnMaster> tusho, a channel like #esoteric got a non-trivial space time geometry ;P
22:29:27 * oerjan is starting to wonder if the room is 3d at all
22:29:31 <AnMaster> (warning: probably technobable)
22:29:39 <tusho> i don't think #esoteric obeys any kind of geometry
22:29:42 <tusho> it's all sort of wishy-washy
22:29:46 <AnMaster> also
22:29:59 <oklopimp> there are things i wouldn't do even with a gun pointed at my head
22:30:05 -!- oklopimp has changed nick to oklopol.
22:30:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, s/you _think_/she said/
22:30:08 <oerjan> it's a Hausdorff compactum. we are still unclear on whether it is metrizable.
22:30:51 <oerjan> um wait
22:31:01 <AnMaster> Hausdorff compactum?
22:31:03 <oerjan> s/compactum/compact space/
22:31:22 <AnMaster> ah well I can kind of guess now what thing it may be
22:31:25 <oerjan> i forgot the slight difference
22:31:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, aspell doesn't like metrizable, please explain it
22:32:26 <oerjan> a topological space is metrizable if its topology can be got from some possible distance metric
22:33:02 <oerjan> (metric = distance function, essentially)
22:33:19 <AnMaster> ah well that clarified one, no two, things at least: 1) we were talking about topology as I thought 2) You know way more than I do about it
22:33:29 <AnMaster> oh and 3) I didn't get what you just said :P
22:33:32 * oerjan cackles evilly
22:34:05 <oklopol> i'm not entirely sure what he's saying either
22:34:31 <oklopol> but i'm hoping ihope is the only other guy here who understood that
22:34:50 <ihope> Hum.
22:34:59 <tusho> <oklopimp> there are things i wouldn't do even with a gun pointed at my head
22:35:00 <tusho> name some
22:35:01 <oerjan> well it was just an attempt at technobabble. the fact that the terms actually exist should not detract from that point.
22:35:52 <tusho> oerjan: can I have some technobabble on the subject of oko
22:35:57 <ihope> So, it's a Hausdorff compact space and we don't know whether it's a metric space thingy.
22:36:06 <oerjan> yeah
22:36:34 <oerjan> tusho: oko calls more for spiritual babbling, i feel
22:36:42 <ihope> I think I've forgotten what Hausdorffness is. It's a separation axiom, I know.
22:36:48 <tusho> oerjan: do that then
22:37:00 <oerjan> ihope: any two points are in disjoint open sets
22:37:09 <ihope> Ah, disjoint.
22:37:27 <ihope> I don't know if there's any particular Hausdorff compact space whose metrizability is unknown.
22:37:43 <oerjan> tusho: the essence of oko is in a transcendental logosphere of infinite reproduction
22:37:45 <oklopol> tusho: i would never kiss a guy in public, for instance
22:38:11 <tusho> two guys kissing with a gun pointed at one of their heads
22:38:15 <tusho> that would be ... an odd situation
22:38:21 <oklopol> avoiding death does not have an infinite priority for me.
22:38:41 <ihope> Does asiekierka have an email address out there somewhere?
22:38:46 <tusho> oklopol: I imagine it does, instinct-wise.
22:38:55 <oklopol> well okay i guess that's a bad example since i've kissed a guy while drunk once
22:38:58 <oklopol> but
22:39:06 <oklopol> if there was something i really didn't wanna do, i wouldn't do it
22:39:37 <oklopol> for instance, if someone pointed a gun at me and told me to tell them they're more intelligent than me, i probably wouldn't.
22:39:56 <oerjan> ihope: i'm sure there is something involving extra unprovable ZFC axioms or something.
22:40:55 <ihope> I like adding true-but-unprovable axioms to things.
22:41:10 <oklopol> i like adding your mum to things
22:41:13 <AnMaster> ihope, how do you know they are true then?
22:41:24 <oklopol> axioms aren't true
22:41:38 <oklopol> they're nothing
22:41:45 <ihope> AnMaster: by the lack of a counterexample.
22:42:11 <oerjan> ihope: his nick at gmail.com popped up on the third google page
22:42:28 <AnMaster> I'm not sure that makes it true, only a relative probability that it is in fact true
22:42:54 <oklopol> nothing can be proved, there can always be a mistake in the proof
22:43:28 <oklopol> but other than that, you seem to have misunderstood everything about math, AnMaster
22:43:49 <AnMaster> oklopol, hah
22:44:01 <AnMaster> if you had to guess (with a gun at your head), would you say that the Riemann hypothesis is 1) false 2) true and provable 2) true but unprovable
22:44:22 -!- CO2Games has joined.
22:44:26 <AnMaster> yes I realize this is the wrong question to ask. But that makes it even more interesting (IMHO)
22:44:40 <oerjan> well (2) is the most interesting
22:44:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, agreed
22:44:50 <oerjan> er, (3)
22:44:52 <oklopol> err, i don't know if it's true, because i've forgotten what that is
22:44:53 <AnMaster> oh
22:44:57 <AnMaster> hm I guess so
22:45:01 <CO2Games> Ok, my brainstack compiler now supports macro parameters
22:45:05 <oerjan> your numbering was off
22:45:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, off compared to?
22:45:27 <CO2Games> Unfortunately my current problem involves std i/o
22:45:27 <oerjan> AnMaster: you used 2) twice
22:45:30 <AnMaster> oh
22:45:31 <AnMaster> right
22:45:32 <AnMaster> sorry
22:45:34 <AnMaster> meant 3
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22:46:11 <oklopol> AnMaster: axioms are not "probably true", as in "things that cannot be proved but might be true", they are things we've decided to hold as true, to see what happens should we do so
22:46:36 <oklopol> what's riemann? explain it in an irc message
22:46:38 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes I know what an axiom is
22:46:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_hypothesis
22:46:55 <oklopol> that's just a link with the word in it
22:46:59 <oklopol> hardly an explanation
22:47:02 <AnMaster> *shrug*
22:47:06 <CO2Games> %repeat|65|+%%repeat|25|.+%
22:47:19 <CO2Games> Prints the alphabet in allcaps
22:47:29 <CO2Games> But I still need to fix . and ,
22:47:33 <AnMaster> CO2Games, you know this is hardly a turing tarpit any more
22:47:36 <CO2Games> And I need to implement [ and ]
22:47:37 <AnMaster> night everyone
22:47:41 <CO2Games> I know
22:48:29 * oklopol clicks link
22:52:03 <CO2Games> btw AnMaster, it supports inline assembly via the @ command
22:52:37 <AnMaster> CO2Games, ewwwwwww
22:52:42 <AnMaster> and night really now
22:52:49 * AnMaster turns off screen
22:52:53 <CO2Games> lol
22:53:03 <CO2Games> AnMaster is gay
22:53:22 <CO2Games> He has sex with pigs
22:53:44 <CO2Games> litterally like oink oink
22:53:58 <CO2Games> Yeah ok maybe he did turn off the screen
22:54:08 <oerjan> CO2Games is a bit confused about the word "gay" i think
22:54:25 <CO2Games> No, he's gay *and* has sex with pigs
22:54:40 <oerjan> [citation needed]
22:54:41 <CO2Games> not limited to pigs
22:54:43 <CO2Games> lol
22:55:02 <CO2Games> So anyway macro parameters work now
22:55:38 <CO2Games> But I can't run the programs assembled and linked by masm compiled by BFToASM
22:55:41 <CO2Games> :\
22:56:38 <CO2Games> shit I just can up with a really bad pun
22:56:57 <oerjan> it's infectious
22:57:05 <CO2Games> "or-gasm", using or's in gasm
22:57:09 <oerjan> also, madness
22:57:13 <CO2Games> madness?
22:57:21 <CO2Games> THIS IS #ESOTERIC!
22:57:27 <oerjan> exactly
22:57:32 <oerjan> madness is mandatory here
22:57:38 <CO2Games> heh yeah you got a point there
22:58:26 <oerjan> so is andgasm the dual concept?
22:59:37 <oerjan> of course it was. well, nearly.
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23:04:38 <CO2Games> xorg-asm
23:04:43 <CO2Games> xor-gasm
23:05:10 <oklopol> gorgasm
23:09:32 <CO2Games> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD4bn5pp32w&feature=related
23:11:11 <ihope> Too bad that's actually a gasm-or.
23:12:04 <CO2Games> "You know I'm molestin` ox's now."
23:20:16 <oerjan> it must be true. everyone knows people who misuse apostrophes are sexual deviants.
23:21:29 <oerjan> also, bathyspheres.
23:25:28 <ihope> That's not a misuse of an apostrophe, it's a misuse as an apostrophe.
23:25:55 <oerjan> ?
23:27:22 <oklopol> because it wasn't actually an apostrophe character?
23:27:25 <oklopol> or what
23:27:37 <oklopol> err
23:27:43 <oklopol> actually i guess it was about the ox's
23:27:47 <oklopol> so i have no idea
23:27:52 <olsner> misuse of accents *brr*
23:27:59 <oklopol> i'm just squintering my way through the world of scent and danger
23:29:23 <oerjan> scent-based UI _sound_ nice, until you get spam
23:30:47 -!- CO2Games has quit ("And I invented doors, no joke!").
23:31:07 <ihope> I wouldn't want a scent-based UI unless I were Florence Ambrose...
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