00:05:16 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:18:54 -!- Ogy has joined. 00:19:09 -!- Ogy has left (?). 00:25:51 -!- hotidlerchick has quit ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'"). 00:38:25 YO 00:38:28 WHO PINGED ME 00:43:56 ah. 00:43:58 oklopol and AnMaster 00:44:01 oklopol: cool 00:44:02 AnMaster: fuck you 00:44:08 (just my canned responses to those people) 00:46:48 AnMaster: just joking by the way 00:46:51 i'm not actually angry with you 00:46:53 that's too much work 00:46:54 :D 00:46:57 just don't say something stupid. 00:51:39 tusho: u sux0rz (but he won't actually read this since he just uses canned responses) 00:51:51 GregorR: butts 01:27:20 -!- tusho has quit. 01:33:38 -!- ihope has joined. 02:17:05 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 02:17:05 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:08:45 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 03:10:49 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 03:11:37 -!- Calamous has joined. 03:17:15 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:32:26 -!- Calamous has quit ("Leaving"). 03:36:55 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 03:40:19 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:41:01 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 03:48:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and there would be no CAR to JESUS CHRIST GET INTO. 04:00:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:13:11 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:40:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:49:50 but but there were no cars at the time of Jesus 04:50:02 unless he made one with a miracle 04:50:30 but they didn't put it into the gospels because no one could wrap their mind around the concept 04:53:18 optbot! 04:53:18 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | or even partial. 04:53:22 optbot! 04:53:22 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | trying 1.5s. 05:02:06 I'm petting my cat, and she's kneading, but she gets such a good grip on the carpet, she's actually dragging herself forward slowly :P 05:05:19 so you will slowly be leaving us, then 05:13:12 Heh. 05:30:01 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 06:33:49 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 06:58:35 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("So, how much do you love noodles?"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:13:39 -!- Mony has joined. 08:13:45 hi 09:43:49 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire..."). 09:48:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | does it have a good module/function browser? Does it provide good autocompletion? Tooltips which show the types of functions as you type them in? Does it have a good debugger? A refactoring tool? How well is it integrated with QuickCheck?. 09:49:38 -!- Mony has joined. 09:57:27 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 09:57:27 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:16:59 yeah 10:17:32 optbot ? 10:17:33 Mony: WOOH! 10:17:43 optbot ^^ 10:17:43 Mony: Urgh. Missed some stuff. 10:18:05 hum .... optbot ? 10:18:05 Mony: if you have an interpreter, you can do all sorts of neat stuff 10:18:15 that's right ^^ 10:33:42 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:36:13 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 10:44:29 -!- tusho has joined. 11:25:12 -!- Corun has joined. 11:49:43 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:49:44 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:55:13 -!- lilja has joined. 12:11:48 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 12:11:48 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:14:41 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 12:14:41 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:22:26 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 12:22:26 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:46:07 -!- kar8nga has joined. 12:46:30 http://www.piratejesus.com/nerdcore/nerdcore017.gif ahahahahahhaha 12:55:38 wow 12:55:43 written by the guy who made that Chronotron time travel game 12:55:45 :S 12:55:46 *:D 13:00:28 lol 13:10:38 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:34:17 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:03:39 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 14:12:09 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:17:42 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 14:17:47 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:05:03 -!- Corun has joined. 15:05:25 optbot, 15:05:26 Mony: Just change the name to COMPLICATED and you've got an esoteric programming language :-) 15:05:34 lol 15:08:40 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 15:08:51 -!- Corun has joined. 15:16:15 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:21:38 -!- lilja has quit ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'"). 15:30:30 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:30:46 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 15:33:23 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 15:33:27 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 15:33:29 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:33:41 -!- Corun has joined. 15:43:08 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:43:09 hi ais523 15:44:57 hi tusho 15:45:03 hi ais523! 15:45:03 hi Mony 15:45:10 hi Mony 15:45:11 need some help with your sql query in a min 15:45:12 ;P 15:45:18 tusho: I didn't even realise there was a memoserv on here... 15:45:21 hi ais523 ;) 15:45:23 yep 15:48:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i wasn't making any argument so there was nothing i could specify. 15:48:43 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:01:38 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:11:29 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 16:12:56 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:22:23 -!- Corun has quit (Connection timed out). 16:23:17 -!- ihope has joined. 16:28:18 -!- Corun has joined. 16:28:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:29:41 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:35:08 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 16:36:34 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:37:06 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 16:38:05 -!- Corun has joined. 16:39:25 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 17:06:48 -!- Corun_ has joined. 17:12:41 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:45:36 hm this is undefined in C right: 17:45:37 -!- Corun_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:45:37 *(i++) == *(i++); 17:45:47 AnMaster: yes, modifies i twice between sequence points 17:45:54 right, exactly what I need 17:45:58 (for a quiz) 17:46:15 ah, OK, I wondered what on earth you were trying to write therer 17:46:17 s/r$// 17:47:09 something like: "What does this code do in C: *(i++) == *(i++);" 1) blah 2) blah 3) It is undefined 4) blah 17:47:23 now if you can come up with hilarious stuff for the other 3 answers I would like to know 17:47:57 well, I imagine much hilarity could ensue if i were a macro 17:48:14 hum? 17:48:45 imagine #define i (char*)0x05),(intptr 17:48:52 on a machine with memory-mapped addresses 17:49:01 haha 17:49:19 ais523, nah assume is is char *i; 17:49:26 and is set before at some point 17:49:29 to the start of a string 17:49:47 most compilers will increment i by either 1 or 2 given that code 17:50:01 gcc will error out on it if given the right settings 17:50:28 also, it's likely to return false if i increments by 2 and the two characters in question are different, could be either true or false but more likely true if i increments by 1 17:50:42 however this is just based on what compilers normally do in practice, not on what they could do 17:53:28 heh, I just tried it in gcc and it optimised it into 1; because I never used the value of i after that 17:53:33 let me make my test program more interesting... 17:55:10 ais523, hehe 17:55:26 well I already made up the bogus answers 17:57:06 btw does php really not have either tuples or structs? 17:57:10 that seems very very odd 17:58:27 AnMaster: well what gcc-bf does is equivalent to (i+=2,1) 17:58:38 it seems that it increments i twice because there are two i++s in it 17:58:50 but because the expression on each side of the == is the same it does common subexpression elimination 17:59:00 and decides that the two sides are always the same 17:59:05 hm ok 17:59:22 still, just goes to show that you can't guarantee any sensible behaviour from code like taht 18:00:15 * ais523 is annoyed that so much stuff assumes 32-bit int nowadays 18:00:39 gcc spends ages zero-extending the argument to putchar from char to int 18:01:10 also the algorithm it uses is something like typedef char int[4]; int i; i[0]=c; i[1]=0; i[2]=i[1]; i[3]=i[2]; 18:01:14 which does not translate well into brainfuck 18:01:36 as in BF register=constant is a lot easier than register=register 18:01:55 putchar has been putchar(int) for, well, ever... 18:01:59 maybe there's some setting somewhere to influence what code it generates 18:02:15 pikhq: I'm fine with that, just not fine with people assuming 32-bit int when 16 is perfectly allowed by the standard 18:02:24 that would double the speed of all my calls to putchar... 18:03:08 anyway, putchar's slow enough anyway due to stdio overhead 18:03:13 -!- Corun has joined. 18:03:27 probably I'll implement __builtin_fastputchar and __builtin_fastgetchar that just map to . and , directly 18:03:37 so people can avoid using stdio in short programs and produce considerably shorter output 18:03:53 ais523, will it be possible to cross compile gcc to brainfuck some day? 18:03:59 that is compile gcc itself with gcc-bf 18:04:11 there are various obstacles to doing that 18:04:13 and how much disk space would you need? 18:04:18 the main one being that the result wouldn't run even on a supercomputer 18:04:28 hahah 18:04:30 and gcc needs more than 16MB of memory to run, normally 18:04:31 and the other ones? 18:04:37 ah well 18:04:42 that's another big problem, I'd need to make bigger pointers 18:04:50 is that hard? 18:05:03 not very, but it would make the marker code even more inefficient than it already is 18:05:17 it's bad enough that calculating *i is O(n) in the value of i 18:05:28 something which doesn't even make sense in the context of pointers in normal C 18:05:29 ouch 18:05:40 wait, O(n^2) 18:05:43 ais523, what about i[a] then? 18:05:57 AnMaster: that's O(n^2) in i+a 18:06:02 ouch 18:06:11 however if i points somewhere on the stack it's a lot faster 18:06:22 pointers to auto variables can be accessed faster than pointers to heap if you have a big heap 18:06:24 hm 18:06:42 and yes, brainfuck is really bad at pointers, yet gcc seems to think they're fast 18:06:53 they are normally... 18:06:54 heh 18:06:57 I need to get gcc to stop all those backwards optimisations 18:07:27 like optimising x*=10; into {int a, b; a=x; b=x<<3; x+=a; x+=b;} 18:07:41 the first is quite a lot better in brainfuck with char x 18:07:43 ais523, so for gcc-bf -O0 is better than -O3? 18:07:50 no, unfortuately 18:07:50 or maybe -Os? 18:07:59 -Os is an interesting one, I might try that 18:08:06 but things like register variables speed things up a lot 18:08:17 maybe I should look at all the optimisations individually to see if they help 18:08:26 and redefine -O1, -O2 and -O3 accordingly 18:08:37 you're not supposed to do that, by the way 18:08:40 bye 18:08:44 but I may as well if it leads to better code 18:08:44 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire..."). 18:08:46 and bye Mony 18:08:46 ais523, about register variables... doesn't GCC handle that itself? and ignore the register keyword? 18:08:53 AnMaster: it depends on the optimisation level 18:08:57 yes at -O2 up, I think 18:09:00 GCC does that kind of optimization at a higher level than at machine code generation level? O_o 18:09:00 ah 18:09:14 Deewiant: yes, and IMO it shouldn't, at least in gcc-bf 18:09:16 Deewiant, no one said GCC had a clean architecture 18:09:22 probably it does it at the RTL level 18:09:27 though gcc-bf is certainly not a normal case 18:09:36 in which case I could get round it by wrapping multiplications in an unspec, but that's kind-of hacky 18:09:50 still, I've done all sorts of other things in my code to hack around limitations in gcc 18:09:53 ais523, unspec? 18:09:53 AnMaster: I've heard it doesn't, doesn't mean I can't be surprised at that anyway :-P 18:10:14 AnMaster: something that gcc doesn't know about but can manipulate 18:10:20 ais523, huh 18:10:34 the archetypal example would be an __asm__ statement 18:10:41 ah right 18:10:41 where gcc has no clue what the asm does, but can move it around anyway 18:10:54 except that ironically __asm__ isn't an unspec, it's something else that acts similarly 18:11:10 ais523, um what about the "automatic select registers to use" feature of __asm__ in gcc 18:11:22 I'm pretty sure that exists 18:11:33 AnMaster: yes, that's reasonably irrelevant here though 18:11:37 an unspec can operate on pseudos 18:11:48 which are things which will eventually go into registers, just gcc hasn't decided which one yet 18:11:57 anyway, an example of ridiculous hackiness: (match_test "GET_MODE(op) == mode || GET_MODE(op) == VOIDmode))) || (((0") 18:12:09 from the gcc-bf code 18:12:32 ais523, I don't understand it 18:12:37 apart from that it isn't C 18:12:43 AnMaster: the bit inside the quotes is C 18:12:46 the bit outside is almost lisp 18:12:47 ah 18:12:58 and the bit inside is unbalanced 18:13:04 yes, that's what I was getting at 18:13:16 well I don't know the context of that 18:13:16 the unbalancing being to work around a bug which makes it impossible to write your own predicates that match constants 18:13:26 and lisp heh.... 18:13:32 because in gcc constants don't have data types 18:13:36 at least, internally 18:13:46 just whether they're integers or floating points 18:13:50 isn't there some famous quote about complex C projects and clisp interpreters 18:13:54 forgot the wording 18:14:10 so everywhere where you want to compare data-types, you have to special-case constants 18:14:15 they forgot to so I had to do it by hand 18:14:24 and yes, gcc's .md files are written in a sexp-based language 18:14:26 ugh 18:14:34 which is basically lisp expressions without any sort of flow control 18:14:56 yes I know what sexp are. I like that as a generic data format 18:14:59 much nicer than xml 18:15:18 also it's basically like writing a polyglot as the .md files are compiled into two stages of the program 18:15:28 for example, the game supertux use sexp for all it's levels, and other non-binary data files (that is, everthing except images and sounds) 18:15:30 one that converts GIMPLE to RTL, one that converts RTL to asm 18:16:01 so you have to write code that works in both directions 18:17:41 btw, does PHP really lack both tuples and structs? 18:17:48 I don't know PHP, really 18:17:51 but I wouldn't be surprised 18:17:55 hm 18:17:56 it has objects and arrays 18:18:00 and objects can be used as structs 18:18:09 well arrays sure, but objects aren't POD 18:18:31 as far as I understand it 18:19:10 I want an array of tuples really 18:19:21 can't you use an array as a tuple? 18:19:31 you mean an array of arrays? 18:19:35 seeing as in PHP you can index arrays with arbitrary objects 18:19:42 well nice except the tuple contains one nested array 18:19:42 they work sort-of like hashes 18:19:43 hm 18:19:46 yes could work 18:19:50 messy though 18:20:00 AnMaster: it's PHP, it's messy whatever you do 18:20:04 ais523, true 18:23:51 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:33:52 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:03:21 off topic: how do I create an iso image from a cd, using command line tools. 19:03:45 dd 19:03:55 well actually a dvd in this case. 19:04:04 what is a good block size for dd then? 19:04:15 some large size, doesn't matter much 19:04:16 considering the dvd is 5.3 GB 19:04:32 olsner, it will handle when the disk doesn't match in block size right? 19:04:43 yeah 19:05:04 you could probably just as well use cat if you wanted to 19:05:10 or cp 19:05:16 actually, probably not cp 19:05:22 as that doesn't copy the content of devices by default 19:05:25 but the devices themselves 19:05:56 hm, also I don't have enough free disk space on any computer with a dvd reader, I guess I'll use nfs 19:06:00 hope that works 19:08:52 -!- Corun has joined. 19:15:41 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 19:23:46 2.5 of 5.3 GB copied... 19:26:06 whoa! 19:26:09 ais523 is STILL HERE 19:26:17 i forgot all about that, and I need major SQL help still, damn 19:26:28 tusho: they fixed the door 19:26:39 ais523: goddamn 19:26:48 go so I can be annoyed that you're not here to fix the problem 19:26:50 why is that bad? 19:26:50 and then come back tomorrow 19:26:56 and continually remind me of your prescence 19:27:00 so that I have time to get the help I need 19:27:00 ok 19:27:15 I may go soon, just because I need something to drink 19:27:23 just getting caught up with this week's Agora stuff first 19:28:33 ais523, what door? 19:28:52 AnMaster: the door to the building in which my normal Internet connection is 19:28:57 oh 19:29:02 ais523, ah what was the issue with it? 19:29:02 i thought you meant to #esoteric 19:29:04 lulz 19:29:04 I had problems connecting for ages because the door was broken and I couldn't get in 19:29:15 AnMaster: they had to lock it by hand because it kept opening in the middle of the night 19:29:17 and I didn't have a key 19:29:21 ais523: have a drink of SQL 19:29:25 ah 19:29:45 ais523, so you connected from elsewhere? 19:30:02 ais523, how goes gcc-bf btw? Solved the divide 64-bit ints but yet? 19:30:03 bit* 19:30:14 AnMaster: I've been working on something else completely unrelated to esoprogramming 19:30:29 deadline coming up in real life and none of the other people who are supposed to be helping me have noticed, it seems 19:30:33 or even responded to my emails about it 19:30:43 I know the freebsd kernel source contains an efficient (for normal processors) implementation of signed and unsigned quad word divide 19:30:51 ais523: that made me laugh 19:30:55 ais523, ouch 19:31:04 but, not offensively 19:31:07 good luck and all 19:31:11 BF efficiency follows completely different rules to normal processor efficiency 19:31:12 but it made me laugh for an unrelated reason 19:31:47 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:32:53 4.5 GB copied... 19:33:29 hm the drive is slow I guess 19:35:52 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:38:28 tusho: SQL totally sounds like an obscure energy drink. maybe it is. 19:38:37 it is 19:38:50 it uses I.N.D.E.X.E.s for that extra boost 19:38:56 anyway, I'm zooming off for a bit 19:38:57 there are some health concerns (makes you fat), but meh 19:39:03 if you shout loudly enough now I'll come back a bit later though 19:39:07 AIS523! 19:39:12 AAIISS552233! 19:39:13 ok, that'll do! 19:39:13 AAIISS552233!! 19:39:16 yay 19:39:19 -!- ais523 has quit ("coming back in a bit"). 19:39:29 apparently too obscure to have a wikipedia page ;) 19:40:14 is he using the echo to find his way back? 19:40:50 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:40:57 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 19:41:43 did they delete his page?! 19:41:54 no 19:41:55 they didn't 19:42:00 oh 19:42:01 you meant SQL 19:42:02 hah 19:42:06 heh 19:43:25 tusho, OS X question: in OS X, how do you eject an unmounted CD. say I unmounted it using umount as root in a terminal 19:43:29 then later want to eject it 19:43:30 * oerjan wonders why Buck Godot doesn't update regularly when Girl Genius does 19:43:48 AnMaster: simple 19:43:51 i mean the frequency is regular but not the time of day 19:43:51 oh? 19:44:00 the eject button on the keyboard. if your keyboard is stupid, try the F12 key. 19:44:05 er, not F12 19:44:06 sorry 19:44:18 lemme remember what it was for retarded keyboards :D 19:44:27 tusho, didn't work 19:44:28 I tried 19:44:39 this is a macbook 19:44:43 so it got an eject key 19:44:51 AnMaster: you have to hold it down possibly? 19:44:54 just tapping it doesn't work 19:45:00 to avoid inadvertently ejecting 19:45:03 tusho, yes and the "eject" symbol showed up on screen 19:45:10 huh 19:45:12 i don't see why 19:45:22 the only other thing i know then is 'drutil tray eject' in a terminal 19:45:34 if that fails, i guess you'll have to re-mount it and i don't know why any of these would fail 19:45:34 :P 19:45:35 tusho, ah thanks 19:46:00 tusho, how would you remount it under /Volumes, I get a "permission denied" as root 19:46:31 AnMaster: put the disc back in? 19:46:31 :P 19:46:48 anyway, what does mount say? 19:46:50 it shouldn't say that 19:47:07 mount should work fine 19:47:11 tusho, "mount: Permission denied" 19:47:18 AnMaster: yeah, but how did you call it 19:47:19 :P 19:48:10 mount -o nodev,nosuid,read-only /dev/disk1s3 "/Volumes/Mac OS X Install Disc 1" 19:48:19 AnMaster: with sudo in front of it? 19:48:39 tusho, no since I had used sudo su - 3 lines above 19:48:55 didn't think you would need sudo when you were in a root shell 19:49:01 AnMaster: did you mkdir /Volumes/Mac OS X Install Disc 1? 19:49:15 mount for me has always required you mkdir the target dir... 19:49:15 tusho, it still exist from when I ran unmount 19:49:20 umount* 19:49:28 ls confirms that 19:49:30 then...that should work perfectly 19:49:36 and does for me 19:49:45 AnMaster: try rmdiring it and mkdiring it, just in case 19:49:50 tusho, Tiger? 10.4.11 19:49:52 other than that...shrug, your machine is crazy 19:49:53 and yes 19:50:13 surely it remounted when you plugged the disc back in though 19:50:16 s/plugged/put/ 19:50:22 tusho, apple hardware test (booting cd with d pressed) reports no errors 19:50:32 surely it remounted when you put the disc back in though 19:51:08 tusho, well issue was I couldn't eject it, but drutil worked and yes it remounted on insert 19:51:21 don't you think I tried to mount it again before I asked you in the first place? 19:51:34 if it remounted on insert ... why do you need to mount it 19:51:34 :P 19:51:54 tusho, well I was just curious there. But thanks for that drutil line 19:52:08 yeah, well, closed as WFM 19:52:09 :P 19:52:16 tusho, eh? 19:52:20 worksforme 19:53:29 tusho, also the "drutil tray" seems strange to me 19:53:37 it is a slot type drive 19:53:41 can't see any tray 19:53:47 * tusho slaps AnMaster 19:53:51 stop being so silly :P 19:54:09 oh and drutil is named as such because it uses the DiscRecording framework to interact with the drive 19:54:19 Common verbs include burn, erase, eject, help, info, list, 19:54:19 status, and tray. 19:54:24 Info, status and tray are now verbs. 19:54:26 ah 19:54:28 * tusho trays AnMaster 19:54:41 I thought it was maybe "DRiveUtil" 19:54:48 that would make sense too :P 19:54:58 perhaps it's Doctor Utility 19:55:54 -!- jix has joined. 19:59:33 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:59:42 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 20:00:03 verbs verb verbally 20:02:52 tusho, also verbs: "subchannel" "version" "cdtext" 20:02:57 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:02:57 hi ais523 20:02:58 and a few more 20:03:03 and hi ais523 20:03:08 AnMaster: Shut up or I'll subchannel you 20:03:31 haha 20:03:39 wb ais523 20:03:40 that actually sounds as it make sense on irc 20:03:43 oh dear, has an argument grown up while I've been missing? 20:03:45 wow, I haven't logread for months 20:03:47 I used to logread all the time... 20:03:58 ais523, no we are *for once* in agreement 20:04:09 which is extremely unlikely relly 20:04:12 really* 20:04:27 i'm not! 20:04:39 oerjan: what are you disagreeing about, then? 20:04:44 I could do with some context, really 20:04:45 ais523, no clue 20:04:53 ais523: 20:04:55 oh and drutil is named as such because it uses the DiscRecording framework to interact with the drive 20:04:55 Common verbs include burn, erase, eject, help, info, list, 20:04:55 status, and tray. 20:04:55 Info, status and tray are now verbs. 20:04:59 tusho, also verbs: "subchannel" "version" "cdtext" 20:05:03 from same man page 20:05:18 that's such a load of trash! 20:06:25 Common verbs include burn, erase, eject, help, info, list, status, and tray. 20:06:25 The rest of the verbs are: bulkerase, cdtext, discinfo, dumpiso, dumpudf, filename, getconfig, poll, subchannel, trackinfo, and version. 20:06:32 that is the complete list 20:06:40 tusho: in INTERCAL "NEXT" is a verb 20:06:45 obviously there are no other verbs 20:06:45 at all 20:06:46 people talk about "NEXTING" and so on 20:06:54 this caused me issues translating it into Latin, though 20:07:17 the Apple made man page (as opposed to "a self made man [page]") states so 20:07:26 20:07:48 so what's NEXT in latin? 20:08:19 DEINDE 20:08:35 which I formed into an infinitive as DEINDERE 20:08:41 and from there the gerundive as DEINDENDUM 20:08:51 probably the best that can be done 20:10:44 ais523, wtf is "gerundive"? 20:11:19 trying to remember now 20:11:47 in INTERCAL English uses gerunds, which makes gramattical sense, but the Latin version uses gerundives probably because someone mistranslated years ago 20:12:15 let's see... a latin gerundive like "deindendum" translates best into English as "having/needing/wanting to be nexted" 20:12:33 well they have some common uses iirc 20:12:46 the Hogwarts motto is a good example 20:12:57 "draco dormiens numquam tittilandus [est]" 20:13:07 ais523: um that's a different use 20:13:16 "It is never the case that a dragon is needing to be tickled", more or less literally 20:13:24 and so in my view it's the same case, pretty much 20:13:33 oerjan: what do you think the difference is? 20:14:50 there's a different use of the gerundium, similar to -ing in english 20:15:01 oerjan: that's just the pure gerund IIRC 20:15:08 which would be "deindens" in this case, meaning "nexting" 20:15:12 no! 20:15:14 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:15:20 that's the one that ought to be used in INTERCAL but isn't 20:15:21 english -ing has two different meanings 20:15:24 yes, agreed 20:15:29 "nexting" as in "the act of nexting" 20:15:34 the noun version of -ing 20:15:34 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:15:44 that's gerund in both English and Latin 20:15:51 yeah 20:15:53 Latin has gerundive, too, which doesn't correspond directly to anything in English 20:16:09 wait, deindens isn't the gerund, is it 20:16:12 that's the other sort of -ing 20:16:13 yes but iirc those have the same form in latin, with -ndum 20:16:20 ah, that's why I was confused 20:16:30 Hogwarts motto is definitely gerundive not gerund though 20:17:06 "A sleeping dragon is never tickling" is nonsense semantically in English, and gramatically in Latin as participles are never used like that in Latin and a gerund would be a noun not an adjective 20:17:10 ais523, "gerunds"? 20:17:28 AnMaster: "programming", referring to the noun, for instance 20:17:36 hm 20:17:41 "I am programming" is a participle, whereas "Programming is my favourite subject" is a gerund 20:17:48 English uses -ing for two different things and confuses the issue 20:17:52 ais523: the hogwarts use is definitely the "needing to be" use 20:17:59 yes, the gerundive 20:18:04 "needing" isn't exactly the right word 20:18:12 ugh 20:18:14 but it's enough to get the sense of the translation 20:18:15 Latin is complex 20:18:23 actually, i am programming in the gerund sense. 20:18:24 AnMaster: no, Latin is simple, English is complex 20:18:26 and in Swedish we don't even have a -ing form really. 20:18:46 AnMaster: you have -ande, don't you? 20:18:50 oklopol: for pretty much everyone in this channel, I'd disagree, but for you, that's perfect 20:19:05 :-) 20:19:07 oerjan, well yes, but we don't use it for "I am programming", we use the "present tense" form then 20:19:12 not sure if that is the right English name for it 20:19:12 tusho: ping, by the way 20:19:15 because you asked me to 20:19:31 AnMaster: that's the two meanings english confuses 20:19:32 AnMaster: pretty much only English uses forms of "is" with a participle 20:19:34 finnish does it that way too 20:19:38 oh wait 20:19:39 it can be expressed in many other languages but they never use it 20:19:50 but both finnish and swedish have the awkwards -ing form too 20:19:53 no, the progressive is a third thing, really 20:19:59 *awkward 20:20:08 like Latin, for instance, "deindens sum" makes sense, sort of, but is so anti-idiomatic that they never used it 20:20:13 argh, I don't even know the terminology for this in English 20:20:21 I can manage it fine *in Swedish* I think 20:20:25 AnMaster: progressive is the am -ing thing 20:20:34 and it seems ais523 has generalized my point and thus owned me quite bad. 20:20:49 i'll go read some more math -> 20:20:51 well, except that deindere isn't actually a verb, because INTERCAL doesn't date back to ancient Roman times 20:20:55 well what is the "present tense" then in English? 20:21:03 as in am/is 20:21:07 AnMaster: I program. 20:21:13 i, program. 20:21:13 that's pretty rarely used in conversation though 20:21:18 ais523, is present tense the right word? 20:21:20 or alternatively "I am programming" 20:21:21 and yes 20:21:25 it's the new movie 20:21:28 well that is what we would use instead of -ing in Swedish 20:21:32 "I am programming" would be the most common way to do it, that's the progressive active 20:21:33 for "I am programming" 20:21:42 "I program" would be most commonly used for speech acts 20:21:47 we wouldn't use our rarely used -ande form that oerjan mentioned 20:22:07 or the start of formal complainy letters: "I write to you because I am very upset about the way you have treated my computer..." 20:22:33 ais523, well we would use it informally too, our -ing form is very seldom used 20:22:36 AnMaster: in swedish and norwegian i guess that's used only for forming adjectives, not as a part of verb tenses 20:22:48 AnMaster: yes, as I said English is unusual in this respect 20:22:51 oerjan, ah yes that is a use for it 20:22:57 confuses foreigners quite a lot until they get used to it 20:23:12 ithkuil uses both quite a lot 20:23:23 ithkuil? 20:23:24 wtf is that 20:23:29 it's the language 20:23:39 AnMaster: anyway, the gerundive is pretty useful, it's annoying not having it in English, it's sort of the opposite of the participle 20:23:40 from what country? 20:23:55 ais523, "participle"? 20:24:07 AnMaster: itkuil is a conlang 20:24:08 AnMaster: a conlang i presume 20:24:11 "I am programming", in English, but "Feather is correct-to-program", in Latin literally translated to English 20:24:16 also I don't think we have gerundive in Swdish 20:24:19 AnMaster: a participle is an adjective made from a verb 20:24:20 one with a reputation of being so hard there's no use trying to learn it 20:24:48 strangely using them in English is non-idiomatic 20:24:52 it's hard in that you need to master all of its aspects before being able to say the simplest thing 20:24:56 AnMaster: i think we use the infinitive for the other -ing use 20:25:08 (Norw. and Sw.) 20:25:16 "The running policeman shouted at the burglar" is about the closest I can get to an idiomatic uses of a participle 20:25:24 which isn't part of a verb phrase like "I am running" 20:25:41 there are no words, just kinda word bodies consisting of two consonants; you create words by inserting the details of how you want to use those bodies to make the actual objects 20:25:47 that's a present active participle, Latin has past passive participles and sometimes past active participles too 20:25:47 oerjan, yes 20:25:58 (mind you not _everything_ is the same in Norwegian and Swedish. they use -st passive much more than us i think) 20:26:17 for instance sea, ocean, lake, river, rain and such would probably just be the "water" word body, with a lot of infliction 20:26:17 oerjan, I can think stuff like "Programmerandets skönhet" would be plausible but sound rather strange 20:26:31 everyone should learn it, hkuil, i mean 20:26:36 rather I would use "skönheten i programmering" or something like that 20:26:50 AnMaster: heh that wouldn't even be possible in norwegian, another difference 20:27:09 oerjan, it wouldn't? 20:27:14 have to use -ing 20:27:37 oerjan, err the noun you mean? 20:27:41 -ende is purely present participle, and also completely uninflectable 20:27:58 oerjan, also doesn't Norwegian come in two flavours? 20:28:09 Nynorsk and BokmÃ¥l 20:28:13 well yeah it would -ande in Nynorsk 20:28:16 not sure what the real difference is 20:28:20 and which is the most common 20:28:29 Bokmål is the most common 20:28:38 bokmal is the one that non-Norwegians come across most often 20:28:48 in fact Nynorsk is probably closer to swedish on this point 20:29:07 at least, I've heard of them both but never seen Nynorsk in a language list but Bokmal crops up all the time 20:29:35 ais523: its abbreviation is nn iirc 20:29:52 nb for bokmal, they changed it from no pretty recently IIRC 20:30:01 nn is presumably nynorsk 20:30:11 and you _do_ sometimes see it in wikipedia's left panel 20:30:30 why are there two ones then? 20:30:33 It make no sense 20:31:02 tusho, there? 20:31:06 AnMaster: why are there both American and British English? 20:31:17 tusho, how do you set the "package" property on a directory in OS X using command line 20:31:52 ais523, because there are two different countries, and until the last 100 years or so travel between them was not something you did easily 20:32:06 so they took separate paths in the "evolution" of the language 20:32:22 well, I can imagine the same happening to two dialects of Norwegian until they became two different languages 20:32:31 but Norway is one rather small country 20:32:50 norway was under denmark. 20:32:54 ais523, Nynorsk literally means "New Norse" 20:32:57 until 1814. 20:33:02 no, new norwegian 20:33:02 so sounds like not that old 20:33:05 ah right 20:33:07 sorry 20:33:20 (bad translation of "Norska") 20:33:35 until then, the official language in norway was danish. obviously we wanted to change that. 20:33:42 right 20:33:49 AnMaster: new means absolutely nothing in a name. 20:33:49 but what was wrong with BokmÃ¥l? 20:34:06 oklopol, really? 20:34:06 except that the thing was new when it was born... which is true of quite a lot of things. 20:34:20 ah right 20:34:24 Windows NT 20:34:28 bokmål was created by gradually norwegianizing the danish spoken in the capital and cities 20:34:29 (New Technology iirc) 20:34:42 oerjan, and Nynorsk? 20:34:44 an upper class dialect 20:34:52 nynorsk on the other hand 20:35:05 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out). 20:35:43 was created by a linguist (Ivar Aasen) collecting samples from various norwegian dialects, and creating a new written language out of it (with some norse inspiration too, i think) 20:35:45 AnMaster: yes. Even worse was Microsoft advertising "new NT technology" in one of their adverts, which is doubly redundant 20:36:27 thus in the beginning Nynorsk was more obviously "Norwegian" i guess. 20:36:41 ais523, ouch 20:36:49 while Bokmål had the support of the upper classes 20:37:19 oerjan, yet BokmÃ¥l (Book language???????) "won"? 20:37:41 nynorsk grew quickly, and somewhere around 1950 was used in about 50% of municipalities i think 20:37:50 oh? 20:37:58 then, came television. 20:38:05 right and? 20:38:22 well I know that when television came in the UK the BBC managed to basically standardise English by themselves 20:38:27 presumably something similar happened in Norway 20:38:35 mostly sent from Oslo, where the language was bokmål-like 20:38:45 that's what i think happened in norway too 20:39:11 aha 20:39:26 why didn't Radio have this effect? 20:39:29 television is required to have a part Nynorsk, but only 25%, and they apparently cheat by including actual dialects in it, or they did 20:39:31 after all that is still sound 20:39:38 well maybe radio did too 20:39:59 also i am telling this from somewhat vague impression 20:40:24 not to mention (or i just did) the Samnorsk disaster of that age 20:40:59 they attempted to _merge_ nynorsk and bokmål, by using only the common forms 20:41:16 the result was .. ugly, from both points of view 20:42:25 ugh 20:42:51 there were reports of parents correcting their children's school books :D 20:42:57 oerjan, also what do you mean with including "actual dialects" 20:43:38 well bokmål and nynorsk are both in principle written forms. this does not prevent them from having somewhat standardized pronunciation 20:44:00 which is used by official newscasters and such 20:44:20 (also, some people speak natively quite close to bokmål, and maybe a few to nynorsk) 20:44:44 this is a great channel, where else could I get up-to-the minute interesting information about Norwegian dialects that actually developed from something ontopic? 20:45:28 but in norway, spoken dialects have an unusually high prestige, and so many people _don't_ standardize when they speak 20:45:36 (I don't, for example) 20:45:59 this developed from the 60's or so, i think 20:46:44 and the TV channels included those that did this in their "Nynorsk" quota, for a while 20:47:00 (well there was just one channel really until around 1980) 20:47:17 which meant nynorsk itself was marginalized even further 20:47:18 isn't mÃ¥l goal in both swedish and norwegian 20:47:39 both goal and speech 20:48:01 not sure if there's any relation between the meanings 20:49:01 can't think of anything 20:49:03 i think maybe it also means "paint" in swedish? (norw. "mal") 20:49:22 actually that's nynorsk too 20:49:45 yes 20:50:07 heh, in Latin "latus" means both "having been carried" and "wide", you can get all sorts of weird combinations like that 20:51:16 ferre, tuli, latus. that's one weird verb. 20:51:25 yes, definitely 20:51:53 at least the "ferro" and "ferre" forms almost form a pattern 20:52:23 although to fit with other verbs it should really be ferrere not ferre 20:53:17 how well do you ppl know latin? 20:53:30 fero actually 20:53:48 * oerjan read a grammar 20 years ago. impressive memory, really. 20:54:00 i mean even i am impressed 20:54:18 i remember things from 20 years back too 20:54:19 few actual words though 20:54:44 grammar sticks in your mind, vocab I've forgotten most of really 20:55:03 although English is sufficiently based on Latin that most Latin words correspond to some English word 20:55:05 ais523: more like ferere, except dropping the middle -e- all over the place iirc 20:55:07 just not normally the most common one 20:55:09 it was a few weeks after conception, i was checking out the wall of the uterus 20:55:13 it was kinda dark 20:55:19 so there's not much to it 20:55:35 oklopol: heh 20:55:46 also a baby's vision is in black and white for the first few days 20:55:55 the rods are ready immediately but the cones take some time 20:56:06 i've had the same experience with grammar, i can imagine being able to perfectly learn a language in a few weeks, apart from the vocab 20:56:06 ais523: [citation needed] :D 20:56:26 oerjan: this is me remembering it from somewhere, not sure where, so not sure if it was a reliable source or not 20:56:45 there are lots of random data I remember from years back, most of which are true by chance but many of which are likely complete nonsense, or urban legends 20:56:53 so take that with 0.294 of a pinch of salt 20:57:07 oklopol: maybe that's something we esolangers have in common 20:57:11 is that a volume unit joke, ais? 20:58:01 oklopol: yes, also I'm poking fun at the whole pinch of salt metaphor 20:58:12 well usually i can just take a few pages of data from the grammar book, and summarize them in a more general rule 20:58:27 and since these are usually pretty simple concepts, it's not like you can forget them 20:58:41 Latin grammar is pretty regular, except when it isn't 20:58:47 but lots more regular than English, anyway 20:59:05 apparently Hungarian has an even more regular grammar, but I would probably never be bothered to learn the vocab 20:59:14 english has no grammar! it just has sentences, and you have to memorize them 20:59:34 * ais523 laughs out loud in real life 20:59:37 try lojban, it's fun and nice :-) 20:59:42 luckily there's nobody to hear me and throw me out this time 20:59:52 like there often is when people in #esoteric make me laugh a lot 21:00:07 have you been thrown out? :P 21:00:52 not quite, although I got a warning once 21:01:02 and some funny looks more than once 21:01:45 at the moment though I'm on my own in an empty lab 21:01:51 we have a pretty fun course at the uni, the project is to code a texas hold'em ai, and there's a tournament at the end of the period 21:01:51 even have music blaring as nobody else is here 21:02:06 and all the lights in the building have turned themselves off due to nobody being around 21:02:11 was thinking esolangs :-) 21:02:11 apart from the ones in here 21:02:17 oklopol: are there money prices? :D 21:02:41 sadly no, and since i don't think the actual playing part is part of the grade, many will just make a randomizing ai 21:03:19 it's actually about distributed computing, basically the grade is for getting java to connect to the server and to coordinate the ai threads :) 21:03:39 you have multiple ai's that can cheat by reading each other's data 21:03:51 so it's really strategically quite different from normal texas hold'em 21:04:10 you can say that o_O 21:04:11 not that it matters of course, since i doubt i'll need anything that sophisticated to beat everyone to the ground 21:04:26 oerjan: not everyone's data 21:04:41 ah 21:04:48 you have a few agents, the opponents have a few agents, and your agents are kinda allies. 21:05:48 this was just a warning, as in 1.5 months i shall disconnect from irc forever in case i lose 21:06:10 or not, but you know, i'll change my nick to okloser or something, and cry for a few days 21:06:20 * oklopol is a bad loser 21:06:54 hah you're just an okloposer 21:07:10 * oerjan ducks 21:11:39 oklopol: your multithreaded networked Java assignment is a lot more interesting than ours 21:11:50 I had to create a multiplayer networked Snakes and Ladders game 21:11:56 with a server and any number of clients connecting to it 21:12:18 it's probably one of the most pointless projects ever, given that Snakes and Ladders has no inputs from the user so all players could do was click a button whenever it was their turn 21:12:45 yeah, snakes and latters make no sense 21:12:56 but we actually implement it on another course. 21:13:03 but that's more about the gui 21:13:04 anyway, I overengineered it in protest 21:13:08 heh 21:13:23 i had to make a poker hand class for one of the introductory courses 21:13:37 server automatically quitting at the right moment, handling disconnections and players quitting gracefully, could make multiple attempts to connect if you screwed up the parameters first time, and so on 21:13:42 so i made a full-blown poker game 21:13:43 * ais523 often overengineers things in protest 21:14:08 ais523, hehehe 21:14:10 :D 21:14:10 of course it was not that complicated, but as what i was supposed to do was basically a 2-tuple, it was something. 21:14:13 I do the same 21:14:18 I just write things in brainfuck in protest. 21:14:18 what, no 3d engine? 21:14:34 oerjan: we had to use a pre-provided class for the actual gameplay itself 21:14:40 which drew snakes-and-ladders boards 21:14:46 and just interface to it 21:14:51 ah 21:15:02 source code for it wasn't provided either, just the compiled version 21:15:17 so I had to do a bit of reverse-engineering to get it working in my AWT program, as it was Swing itself 21:15:24 figuring out what sort of wrappers it needed 21:15:30 you should've reverse-engineered what it output to the screen, and rerender it to 3d 21:15:38 For the Scheme "introduction to programming" course one of the weekly assignments was "draw something including some text and an ellipse" (using the provided "xdraw" library/app); a friend wrote a raytracer for that. 21:15:44 * ais523 dislikes Swing as they don't see why Java should force their GUI on users rather than the one they're used to 21:15:53 ais523, for example "make a php page that implements a quiz with three 4-possible-answers questions". Pointless IMO. So I made a extensible quiz engine that can handle any amount of predefined questions with any amount of answers 21:16:16 (And received 0 points, I think, since the metacircular evaluator used by the automatical-grading-bot was so slow it didn't finish rendering the scene.) 21:16:32 probably everyone in here overengineers the answers to stupid programming questions 21:16:35 tusho: what about you? 21:16:39 ais523, what is the diff between Swing and AWT? 21:16:57 AnMaster: AWT uses the platform's widgets, Swing is almost an OS of its own 21:17:06 with rendering the entire window, and everything 21:17:09 fizzie, automated grading bot. Ugh 21:17:23 fizzie, I hope he/she talked to the teacher about that! 21:17:30 * ais523 agrees with AnMaster 21:17:49 ais523, and well I prefer using native widgets 21:17:51 looks better 21:17:54 so do I 21:18:14 ais523: tusho doesn't have assignments 21:18:16 that's why I used AWT, whereas everyone else used Swing because it was easier to interface with the teacher's code and what I was taught 21:18:18 ais523, though arguably, on Linux "native" widgets aren't well defined 21:18:29 AnMaster: It's the "introduction to programming" course with gazillion students, and with N weekly programming assigments I don't think the department has the resources to manually grade them; at least the final "programming project" part was looked at by a human. 21:18:31 ais523, I'd argue on my desktop that happens to be KDE 21:18:35 * ais523 remembers another teacher, where we both spent most of the lessons complaining about how stupid the syllabus was 21:18:49 AnMaster: well native is whatever AWT uses on your system, from Java's point of view 21:18:56 fizzie, well didn't he/she complain about that specific issue to the teacher 21:19:15 fizzie: complaining about bugs in the grading system is worthwhile IMO, even if autograders are fine normally 21:19:21 ais523, "syllabus"? 21:19:43 AnMaster: the set of knowledge that a university or school course is meant to teach 21:19:48 ah 21:20:07 in this case, it was how to write ELIZA-alikes and expert systems using POP11 21:20:28 Well, it's more of a "feature" that it doesn't get stuck in infinite loops; I think it was the only "sensible" program that went over the execution time limit. Don't know whether he complained or not, it might not have made any difference in the course grade. I'm sure he at least talked about it with the teacher. 21:20:28 and POP11 is a pretty uninteresting and annoying-to-use imperative language 21:20:43 ais523, or "print all primes between 0 and 100 using php" -> full blown Sieve of Atkins(!) in PHP, took about a day. 21:21:06 it had rudimentary pattern matching, and did loops with recursion, and that's about it for its interesting features 21:21:11 ais523, not auto grading, the teacher did give me a strange look the lesson after, but didn't comment on it 21:21:12 Oh, and he also wrote a patch to the "xdraw" drawing thing, because that was the major reason the raytracer was so slow. The silly thing had a putpixel performance that was (at least) O(n) where n is the amount of colors used in the image. 21:21:40 AnMaster: you could have done that without even a but then that's the -F method of programming 21:22:04 ais523, hah well I bet the teacher wouldn't have liked that 21:22:21 it's a valid solution, though, arguably even the best one if you're going for efficiency 21:22:32 change 100 to 10000 and the problem gets more interesting 21:22:41 ais523, I suspect the teacher expected either "loop, test if prime, print" or sieve of Eratosthenes 21:23:23 was an introductionary(sp?) course 21:23:45 AnMaster: indroductory 21:23:52 *introductory 21:24:20 what was the typo? 21:24:27 third letter d->t 21:24:40 in the part of the word that was obvious, rather than the confusing part 21:24:40 I mean in mine 21:25:07 you left the tion in, it disappears in the inflected word in this case 21:25:24 ah well, that is one part I dislike in English 21:25:28 more exceptions than rules 21:26:11 as i said, no exceptions, no rules, just sentences :) 21:26:45 oklopol: but that isn't even a sentence... 21:32:29 module random: 21:32:31 EXPORTS 21:32:31 seed() -> ran() 21:32:31 Seeds random number generation with default (fixed) values in the process dictionary, and returns the old state. 21:32:32 heh 21:32:50 (there is a seed(A, B, C) too, that you can use if you want something random) 21:33:07 Like {A1,A2,A3} = now(), random:seed(A1, A2, A3) 21:34:40 Who pinged me, why 21:34:42 I will kill them 21:34:53 tusho, ais523 I think 21:35:09 tusho: I pinged you because you asked em to 21:35:11 s/em/m/e 21:35:19 ah 21:35:20 s/\/e$/e\// 21:35:26 s/em/m/e <-- wtf? 21:35:36 AnMaster: a typo, I fixed it on the next line 21:35:49 I could also have fixed it with sub m () {"me";} 21:35:51 ais523, hey use a different separator whe you use sed on an existing sed expression! 21:35:56 it's sed 21:35:58 not perl 21:36:01 very clear 21:36:02 but that would have been a lot more obscure 21:36:04 yes it is perl 21:36:06 also my corrections are in Perl 21:36:08 no it's sed 21:36:11 no, it's not 21:36:14 ais523 knows, he wrote it 21:36:17 yes it is 21:36:20 if you've seen how complicated my regex corrections get sometimes you'd know why 21:36:38 "The sky is green" "No it's not, it's blue" "Yes it is" "No it's not" "Yes it's green" "No, it is most definitely blue" 21:37:02 tusho, it[who?] has been proved that if there are only two people in Finland, and 5 of them are in #esoteric then ais523's corrections are in sed not perl 21:37:12 mine is based on logic 21:37:14 yours is not 21:37:19 plus darwin (the pope) agrees with me 21:37:19 qed 21:37:21 AnMaster: luckily there are more than 2 people in finland 21:37:27 also your argument is correct but irrelevant 21:37:36 ais523, well tusho said there were only two 21:37:41 a few days ago 21:37:47 there are only two 21:37:49 and six or so are in here 21:37:51 see! 21:38:01 i can link you to the logs with my elaborate proof 21:38:02 if you wish 21:38:04 -!- ais523 has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | there are only two people in Finland, and 5 of them are in #esoteric. 21:38:08 tusho, well that still holds true, thanks to the extended hypothesis 21:38:23 Darwin was a pope? 21:38:26 fizzie: Yes 21:38:31 I can link you to the proof of that too 21:38:36 fizzie, not the one I know of 21:39:09 AnMaster: Yes 21:39:10 Yes he was 21:39:17 Also, 1 darwin = 10 darwins 21:39:25 but, popes are antidarwins 21:39:27 so in actual fact 21:39:29 the pope is darwin 21:39:31 in denial 21:39:36 that gets confusing when you realise that the pope was darwin to start with 21:39:36 only if darwin == infinite 21:39:45 because darwin cannot doubt himself. 21:39:52 therefore, we must all hail darwin, defeater of human preconceptions 21:39:53 only then does 1 darwin = 10 darwin hold true 21:39:56 AnMaster: wrong 21:40:03 tusho, oh? 21:40:04 it's okay, because 1 darwin = 10 darwin holds only in africa 21:40:07 it's african mathematicis 21:40:10 *mathematics 21:40:10 What the fuck are you people talking about 21:40:15 Slereah_, no clue 21:40:15 Does it involve any bees 21:40:15 Slereah_: darwin 21:40:17 * ais523 agrees with Slereah_ 21:40:17 his Supreme Popeity 21:40:39 * AnMaster agrees with ais523 21:40:40 this is actually just an elaborate collection of injokes that actually makes sense in its own closed world with warped logic, btw 21:40:51 (now we just need Slereah_ to agree with me to form a cycle) 21:41:04 I agree with Darwin 21:41:12 i am darwin 21:41:12 ok that was interesting 21:41:14 and so are you 21:41:19 therefore you agreed with me 21:41:29 tusho: actually Darwin is an operating system 21:41:31 the statement was: "Slereah_ should eat his hat and post pictures on the internet" 21:41:36 ais523: no, that ismerely a manifestation 21:41:41 of the darwin time cube 21:41:50 do not let the popes pope drone mobiles from sheffield take you away 21:42:00 you know they are coming when...you hear... the... sound..... 21:42:07 ais523, I think I'm going to put tusho on ignore now, and I hope so are you 21:42:34 #esoteric is a serious business zone! 21:42:44 AnMaster: before I came here I used to read Usenet a lot, although I never killfiled anyone I got quite adept at ignoring them mentally 21:42:45 Only 100% serious enterprise business - like the cfunge committee - can be discussed here. 21:42:47 Curiously in Discordianism, according to their scripture (such as it is), everyone is a Pope; so Darwin would've been one too. 21:42:49 It is of great importance. 21:42:57 ais523, "killified"? 21:42:58 fizzie: Discordianism is the pope 21:43:06 AnMaster: killfiled 21:43:11 not quite the same 21:43:18 ais523, which is? 21:43:19 ais523: am I on mental ignore 21:43:35 also AnMaster still has not figured out a way to get his computer to search the web for information, is ee 21:43:35 tusho: depends on what you say 21:43:37 *i see 21:43:43 AnMaster: killfiling on Usenet is like /ignore on IRC 21:43:47 ais523: time cube educated stupid darwin pope am i on mental ignore 21:43:52 ais523, ah 21:43:54 although good newsreaders let you killfile threads as well as people 21:44:08 the IRC equivalent is /part, I think... 21:44:25 ais523, hah 21:44:49 That's more like unsubscribing. 21:45:21 fizzie, ah yes 21:45:27 We could all add a conversation identifier prefix to our messages so it would be possible to ignore "threads". 21:46:21 fizzie, wouldn't work well 21:47:03 AnMaster: why not? 21:47:08 just have multiple convo tags 21:47:11 on linux how do you mount one partition on a cd when the cd got several? like a hfs one and an iso one 21:47:21 like, timecube and linux 21:47:25 oh and tusho is on mental ignore 21:47:30 timecube linux @ AnMaster: You educate stupid! 21:47:32 see 21:47:46 AnMaster: do the partitions have separate filenames? 21:47:50 the timecube operating system 21:47:53 if so, it's easy, just use the mount command by hand 21:47:54 ais523, all I see is /dev/sr0 21:48:01 # file -s /dev/sr0 21:48:01 /dev/sr0: Apple Partition data block size: 512, first type: Apple_partition_map, name: Apple, number of blocks: 63, second type: Apple_Driver_ATAPI, name: Macintosh, number of blocks: 4, third type: Apple_Free, name: , number of blocks: 0, 21:48:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | see ed murphy's reply. 21:48:28 I got no idea how to look at the separate partitions of it 21:48:44 hm, can we use the timecube to implement twoducks? 21:48:51 ais523, //dev/sr0 is my dvd reader btw 21:48:55 oerjan: twoducks is HARMONIOUS TIME CUBE POPE 21:49:05 that would be low-level stuff, I'm not too sure how it works but there may be some way to mknod a block-special-device for that partition 21:49:39 But 21:49:41 ais523, udev should handle it 21:49:43 If time is cube 21:49:45 How is space 21:50:04 i guess i should read some timecube stuff to find out. or maybe i should try to preserve the last vestiges of sanity. 21:50:45 oerjan, I suggest the latter 21:50:50 AnMaster: ah, not sure if it isn't working, I don't know that much about that sort of thing 21:50:57 Slereah_: to answer that, you need a space time pair of ducks 21:51:03 luckily there are lots of other Linux users on IRC, some of them will probably know 21:51:09 oerjan : Boo! 21:51:10 ais523, guess so 21:51:21 will look at it tomorrow 21:51:24 Slereah_: see Triangle and Robert 21:51:25 You also need a kernel with CONFIG_MAC_PARTITION=y to get those partition tables read. 21:52:20 (Probably.) 21:52:37 I'm not quite sure about hfs/iso hybrid-CDs. 21:54:17 fizzie, I have that option 21:55:00 anyway I asked in #linux, but issue is no one ever responds there (though a few respond to the newbie questions all the time, none responds to advanced ones) 21:58:29 I just remember that mkisofs/genisoimage can do iso/hfs hybrids, don't know about mounting. Although if you yourself can read the relevant formats, usually you can mount just about anything with -o loop=/dev/sr0,offset=magic-number-to-start-of-partition. 21:58:42 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 21:59:34 fizzie, hm I don't know the offsets 21:59:40 AnMaster: why do you always bother me about your os x troubles 21:59:41 why not fizzie 21:59:44 he uses os x too 21:59:53 tusho, well I didn't know that 21:59:56 thanks for the info 22:00:00 uh 22:00:02 i guess you're deaf 22:00:08 since he's talked about running cfunge on os x 22:00:13 and misc. mentions of os x 22:00:17 and also answered your os x qs before 22:00:22 yes but I thought that was some temp thing 22:01:12 No Man or God exists as One, for _Cubic fish of Opposites_, divide the Egg into 4 Opposing Quadrants. 22:02:51 I have a iBook laptop that just seems to work better with OS X. And actually I'm currently writing this using it, since my main desktop managed to get some mysterious hardware issues during the move to this new apartment. 22:08:09 fizzie, I have an really old ibook. first model of ibook. PPC, 3.2 GB harddrive 22:08:15 OS 9 or 8 iirc 22:08:23 32 MB RAM(!) 22:08:47 though extended with another 32 MB module to 64 MB 22:09:25 a home built laptop would own 22:09:29 I wonder why that is so hard 22:09:37 home built towers sure 22:09:40 but why never laptops 22:10:25 GregorR: deep 22:10:39 oerjan: Good ol' Time Cube gave me that one :P 22:10:59 ooh 22:10:59 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:11:42 time cube is a joke right? 22:11:47 or is someone actually that mad? 22:12:23 (1) _someone_ is actually that mad, for whatever value of mad (2) don't know about time cube 22:12:23 oerjan, GregorR ^ 22:12:47 oerjan, huh? 22:12:49 time cube is not a joke, no 22:12:55 gene ray is just a deranged old man with schizophrenia 22:13:10 i did quite a bit of idle research in to it 22:13:24 AnMaster: for whatever value of mad, there is always someone that mad 22:13:56 ouch 22:14:15 AnMaster: Time Cube is a joke to everyone except Gene Ray :P 22:14:45 but yeah gene ray is quite thoroughly mentally ill 22:14:51 and i doubt anything can really be done for him 22:15:02 best thing to do: laugh heartily 22:15:15 theory: by an amazing coincidence, everything gene ray says is actually perfectly correct, but it will take humanity millennia to discover this 22:15:59 ftp://ftp.mklinux.apple.com/pub/Other_Tools/ 22:16:02 http://www.timecube.com/TheWisestHuman_newimg_GeneRayCube.jpg 22:16:04 mac-fdisk 22:16:06 ^ deranged old man. 22:16:29 well 22:16:32 the url is broken 22:16:38 [I] sys-fs/mac-fdisk 22:16:38 Available versions: 0.1-r6 22:16:38 Installed versions: 0.1-r6(23.15.49 2008-09-20) 22:16:38 Homepage: ftp://ftp.mklinux.apple.com/pub/Other_Tools/ 22:16:38 Description: Mac/PowerMac disk partitioning utility 22:16:54 AnMaster: this is our problem and we can fix it, certainly 22:17:01 but download worked 22:17:02 however.... that is OLd by the looks of it 22:17:04 PowerMac? 22:17:07 from gentoo mirrors 22:17:15 tusho, well... lets see... 22:17:24 I remember using one 22:17:29 ages ago 22:17:31 whatevs 22:17:36 probably before you were born tusho 22:17:38 ;P 22:17:40 * AnMaster ducks 22:17:44 pre-1995? 22:17:48 nah ok 22:17:52 after you were born 22:17:54 right 22:18:05 but before you started school 22:18:10 heh. 22:18:10 (1997 or so) 22:18:10 so when. 22:18:14 ah 22:18:22 tusho, maybe 1998 22:18:24 not sure 22:18:34 but something like that 22:18:37 time cube was founded in 1997 22:18:41 ouch 22:18:41 coincidence? I think not. 22:18:47 coincidence 22:19:03 no 22:19:06 time cubincidence 22:19:10 a carefully-planned coincidence 22:19:20 like all coincidences 22:21:04 oerjan: i seem to recall you believe in syncronicity :P 22:21:05 sp 22:21:37 ok 22:21:43 I fixed mounting the dvd 22:21:54 use mac-fdisk on dvd to get offsets 22:22:01 then, mount with offset parameter 22:23:35 tusho: on my better days 22:23:59 oerjan: clearly it is synchronicity when your better days are 22:24:05 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 22:24:15 -!- jix has joined. 22:24:17 grammar your excellent is 22:24:31 yoda am i 22:25:03 someone pointed out there was no International like Yoda speak Day 22:25:14 found it let us 22:25:38 (in IWC's ITLA Pirate D thread, i think) 22:25:57 too much work it is 22:26:19 naw 22:26:27 a website need we make just 22:26:40 actually, in Latin the Yoda word order was one of the most commonly-used 22:26:55 you seen my website have? clearly for me still too much work it is 22:27:09 oerjan: then volunteer do i 22:27:14 in Latin you could more or less randomly jumble the order of words in sentences and they would still mean the same thing if they weren't too complex 22:27:22 but Yoda word order popular was... 22:28:06 My dick you can suck 22:28:07 maybe google absolutely sure it not already does exist to make i should do 22:28:29 oerjan: idea good is that 22:28:37 darn they were lying 22:28:51 ?? 22:28:58 http://www.talklikeyoda.com/ 22:29:08 Damnit 22:29:14 also a bit out of date that website is 22:29:18 slightly 22:29:24 CODE LIKE YODA 22:29:29 Wait 22:29:36 Is "code like Yoda" RPN? 22:29:38 LIKE YODA CODE 22:29:50 oerjan: What about an International Talk Like a ...! 22:29:57 (Whereinst you talk like a Ninja) 22:30:02 (Ninjay.) 22:30:08 Ninjas don't talk, tusho 22:30:11 They don't make noises 22:30:15 Slereah_: exactly. 22:30:16 thus the 22:30:17 ...! 22:30:23 the ... is eerie silence 22:30:27 the ! is them cutting your throat 22:30:42 ais523: actually i think Yoda order is OSV while Latin was fond of SOV? 22:31:06 oerjan: Yoda order is SOV IIRC 22:31:12 Word order free english talk am I in experiment as. 22:31:15 but yes, Latin is definitely SOV by default 22:31:17 OS being rare but not unknown in human languages (Malagasy e.g.) 22:31:20 Understand you can me? 22:31:38 tusho : Go further 22:31:41 Letter order 22:31:41 although adjectives make things more interesting as in Latin they needn't be attached to the noun they affect 22:31:48 Slereah_: Confusing that is too. 22:31:56 Like this let us talk 22:32:02 ais523: no, definitely OSV or close, _it_ _is_ 22:32:10 ah 22:32:17 but then, "it is" is one word in Latin 22:32:25 so when the subject's a pronoun, Latin is OSV 22:32:26 true that is 22:32:54 Amazing monocles 22:33:59 Monocles sounds like a Greek name, if you pronounce it Mono-cles 22:34:02 with a long e 22:34:04 Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres 22:34:20 monnasdas 22:34:21 oerjan: that's hardly typical word order, it's poetic word order 22:34:26 where you anagram the sentence to make it scan well 22:34:39 yeah but it separates the adjective from the noun 22:34:40 Hey guys let's talk in RPN english 22:34:43 and pack everything into one sentence 22:34:48 so we get tons of nouns and adjectives such 22:34:49 well, maybe 22:34:50 and it's confusing 22:34:52 until the verbs at the end 22:34:53 sort it all out 22:35:14 i that idea good is think 22:36:26 I idea good all you think not see 22:36:28 should prepositions be postponed? 22:36:35 I know not 22:36:54 it experiment with perhaps 22:37:11 way optimal the to find 22:38:14 brain almost hard grammar thinking quota out of is 22:39:03 I I that got think 22:39:42 I game the lost just 22:39:50 tusho: how? 22:40:53 http://i27.tinypic.com/zxts7d.gif this image, which I've already forgotten where it was posted due to the annoyance of losing it but I think it was wikipedia or a forum or something 22:41:55 bah, i forgot about the rpn 22:42:09 that would have been epic in rpn 22:42:35 * ais523 reads http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/agora-horoscope/ again 22:43:11 what exactly the rules for yoda grammar are? 22:43:14 ... 22:43:28 AnMaster: the force you must use 22:45:27 http://www.talklikeyoda.com/howto/ 22:45:52 although there was an essay linked to that i just gave up on 23:13:24 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 23:14:08 tusho: I idea good all you think not see <<< could someone parse this for me 23:14:14 yes 23:14:18 here 23:14:25 bracketize it 23:14:41 I ((idea good) (all you) think not) see 23:14:48 it should be (you all), possibly 23:15:02 in regular english: 23:15:15 I see you all think not good idea 23:16:07 y'all think that? 23:16:26 what 23:16:33 with you all it's pretty sensible yeah 23:50:00 -!- ais523 has quit ("9").