←2008-10-02 2008-10-03 2008-10-04→ ↑2008 ↑all
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02:29:35 <psygnisfive> :O
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05:49:02 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | we can have nil = \x y -> y.
05:59:02 <CO2Games> who here might be willing to write me a simple test program that utilizes all of the commands in this instruction set I made?
06:00:10 <CO2Games> I'll take that as a nobody
06:37:03 <slereah> Well, it's school time
06:37:04 <slereah> So mehbe later
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11:49:02 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but we originally (mists of time) come from Scotland.
11:51:06 <AnMaster> hm that topic makes sense in the context of the first section
11:51:20 <AnMaster> "the backlog, but we came from scotland", is that true?
11:51:43 <AnMaster> it *almost* makes sense
11:54:02 <fizzie> Yes; the "mists of time" remark makes it sound like "but even before the backlog, though it says 'entire', there was the time when we came from Scotland".
11:54:53 <fizzie> fungot: Why don't you ever say anything clever like that?
11:54:53 <fungot> fizzie: at least, it mostly works, but it
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12:09:22 <AnMaster> mostly yeah
12:09:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, how often do you update the language db for fungot with new logs?
12:09:49 <fungot> AnMaster: yeah the first one
12:10:05 <AnMaster> fungot, first what?
12:10:05 <fungot> AnMaster: i understand f has an alternative syntax
12:10:19 <AnMaster> fungot, what f?
12:10:20 <fungot> AnMaster: are we allowed to submit an interpreter in basic and don't release the source
12:11:01 <AnMaster> fungot, Interpreter for what? And also it sounds like a truly horrible idea to use BASIC for it anyway....
12:11:01 <fungot> AnMaster: i got the control wrong?
12:11:09 <AnMaster> fungot, Control for what?
12:11:26 <AnMaster> ^echo optbot
12:11:26 <fungot> optbot optbot
12:11:27 <optbot> AnMaster: amb(1,2,3) returns 1 2 or 3
12:11:27 <optbot> fungot: good
12:11:27 <fungot> optbot: yeah drscheme from debian package installed nicely but drscheme wont launch, complains about that?
12:11:29 <optbot> fungot: :DD
12:11:29 <fungot> optbot: thats worse than fnord
12:11:30 <optbot> fungot: <3::=3<*3*; *3*3::=3*3*; *3*>::=3>
12:11:30 <fungot> optbot: it's in the
12:11:31 <optbot> fungot: How about have integer literals repeat? So + adds 1 to top of stack, and +9 adds ten.
12:11:32 <fungot> optbot: works nicely enough in w3m, but i
12:11:32 <optbot> fungot: It is suppose to give me a message that it knows the we are ~exec in somethine
12:11:55 <AnMaster> worse than fnord?
12:11:58 <AnMaster> *shudder*
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12:34:31 <ais523> <CO2Games> who here might be willing to write me a simple test program that utilizes all of the commands in this instruction set I made?
12:34:46 <ais523> CO2Games: I'm busy right now, but I might try later depending on how easy it is
12:34:49 <ais523> could you give me a link?
12:42:21 <AnMaster> ais523, wasn't it he that made the bloated brainfuck based lang without support for nested loops?
12:42:29 <AnMaster> though he fixed that iirc
12:42:33 <ais523> not sure
12:42:53 <ais523> still, BF-based langs are common ways to get into esoprogramming
12:42:58 <ais523> even I wrote one
12:43:12 <ais523> (I changed the semantics of [ and , to make the language reversible, not sure how usable the result is)
12:56:22 <ais523> hi ehird
12:57:04 <AnMaster> Hm
12:57:11 <AnMaster> what will memcpy() do on size = 0
12:57:20 <ais523> not sure, it might be undefined
12:57:26 <ais523> if it isn't, almost certainly nothing
12:57:57 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't find any mention in any man page about the behaviour at least
12:58:15 <ehird> no mention = undefined
12:58:17 <ais523> try looking at the C standard?
12:58:21 <ehird> <AnMaster> ais523, wasn't it he that made the bloated brainfuck based lang without support for nested loops?
12:58:24 <ais523> also, yes, no mention = undefined
12:58:25 <ehird> it was interesting, actually
12:58:46 <ais523> and you don't need nested loops for TCness, one loop + if is enough
12:59:10 <ais523> hmm... come to think of it, BF is probably Turing-complete with only two levels of nested []
12:59:58 * AnMaster fixes that code
13:02:11 <AnMaster> ais523, C99 makes no mention of it either
13:02:33 <ais523> no mention = undefined, it's a general rule in that standard
13:02:52 <AnMaster> The memcpy function copies n characters from the object pointed to by s2 into the
13:02:52 <AnMaster> object pointed to by s1. If copying takes place between objects that overlap, the behavior
13:02:52 <AnMaster> is undefined.
13:02:54 <AnMaster> is all
13:03:11 <AnMaster> ais523, however for n = 0 that should mean "copies 0 bytes"
13:03:22 <AnMaster> so not sure if that counts as "no mention"
13:09:19 <ehird> AnMaster
13:09:22 <ehird> if you're not sure
13:09:23 <ehird> and it's not mentioned
13:09:25 <ehird> it's undefined
13:09:45 <ehird> Hm.
13:09:48 <ehird> I imagine he still has me on ignore.
13:10:00 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on how you interpret 7.21.2.1.2
13:10:12 <AnMaster> which was what I quoted above
13:10:17 <ais523> AnMaster: in which numbering scheme? ISO's or ANSI's?
13:10:19 <ehird> AnMaster: if you're not sure, or you think it's ambiguous, and it's not mentioned, it's undefined.
13:10:21 <ehird> end
13:10:59 <AnMaster> ais523, the section number in the pdf + paragraph number. File says "ISO/IEC 9899:TC3"
13:11:10 <ais523> ah, ok, ISO numbering scheme
13:11:28 <ais523> C standardisation is a bit stupid, as ANSI and ISO both put out identical standards except they numbered the sections differently
13:11:34 <AnMaster> ais523, heh
13:11:36 <ais523> which makes it very hard to cite part of the standard correctly...
13:12:22 <AnMaster> ais523, this was the most uptodate version of the standard I could get hold of. I think it has some spelling corrections and similiar. Considering it is dated 2007 Sep 7.
13:12:41 <ais523> yes
13:12:51 <ais523> interestingly, the ones you get hold of are newer than the official published versions
13:13:02 <AnMaster> ais523, hm? I think I found it using google
13:13:10 <ais523> due to some crazy ISO copyright stuff, the official standards cost money and aren't legally online anywhere
13:13:11 <AnMaster> it was a pain to find what seemed to be the right version
13:13:14 <ais523> but all the drafts are published
13:13:14 <ais523> and open
13:13:22 <ais523> thus you most likely found the newest drafy
13:13:23 <ais523> *draft
13:13:33 <AnMaster> ais523, it was from ISO or IEEE or IEC website iirc
13:13:37 <ais523> yes
13:13:41 <AnMaster> or maybe open-std or whatever
13:13:43 <ais523> due to the working group publishing them there
13:13:54 <ais523> 9899:TC3 is the third correction to C99, if I remember correctly
13:14:01 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I think so
13:14:08 <ais523> which will be incorporated into the next version of C if they ever put one out
13:14:46 <AnMaster> ais523, however as far as I can tell compiler vendors such as GNU and Intel, seem to refer to last such correction version
13:15:06 <AnMaster> pretty sure I saw references to that in both cases
13:15:28 <ehird> i haaaaaaaate IEEE and ISO and all closed standards organizations
13:15:29 <ehird> ffff
13:15:34 <AnMaster> ehird, agreed
13:15:40 <AnMaster> standards should be open
13:15:47 <AnMaster> that is the point of a standard
13:16:07 <ehird> you cant even get the fucking ISO date format standard without paying like $100
13:16:10 <ehird> that's bullcrap.
13:16:19 <ais523> yes, I share in your anger, both of you
13:18:01 <ehird> also
13:18:02 <AnMaster> Err is stddef.h C89, C99 or POSIX?
13:18:02 <ehird> iso dates
13:18:05 <ehird> actually kinda suck:
13:18:12 <ehird> 2008-W40-5
13:18:13 <ehird> W = week number.
13:18:14 <ehird> seriously.
13:18:16 <ehird> what the christ.
13:18:34 <ehird> AnMaster: headers really need manpages...
13:18:39 <ais523> AnMaster: can't remember off the top of my head
13:18:49 <ehird> also
13:18:51 <ehird> what ISO idiot
13:18:56 <ehird> decied that 'T' was a good separator
13:18:58 <AnMaster> ehird, it got one here, but it doesn't say where it comes from
13:19:09 <ehird> T just makes it impossible to make out the day from the time
13:19:42 <AnMaster> <ehird> 2008-W40-5 <-- Y10K....
13:19:59 <AnMaster> and if you want to avoid months, just use "day of year" or something
13:20:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, ISO 8601 doesn't support more than 4 digits to a year.
13:20:15 <ehird> AnMaster: But the example I pasted: valid iso 8601 date
13:20:16 <AnMaster> though both week and day of year seriously fuck up on leap years
13:20:20 <ehird> However
13:20:27 <AnMaster> so month is pretty sane
13:20:28 <ehird> I don't give a shit about the Y10K problem.
13:20:41 <AnMaster> ehird, heh ok
13:20:43 <AnMaster> too far off
13:20:43 <ais523> well, it's maybe not a problem when referring to now
13:20:51 <AnMaster> we won't ever need more than 640 KB RAM either
13:20:53 <ehird> Yes, software from the 1970s should be made to work in 2000.
13:20:55 <ais523> but Y10K is certainly a problem when referring to things that will happen in the far future
13:20:59 <ehird> (2038 is a reasonable problem)
13:21:02 <ehird> but
13:21:11 <ehird> think about how far Y10K is away
13:21:15 <ehird> and think about in history
13:21:18 <ehird> the progression of technology
13:21:21 <AnMaster> what if your lifespan was 10000 years?
13:21:21 <ehird> also moore's law
13:21:21 <ais523> very near on geological scales
13:21:25 <ehird> and...y10k is bullshit
13:21:25 <AnMaster> then would you worry?
13:21:32 <ais523> also, half the date formats I see have a Y1BC problem
13:21:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but it's not.
13:21:47 <AnMaster> ais523, Y1BC?
13:21:48 <ais523> and dates BC are certainly within the scope of things that people might want to refer to
13:21:50 <AnMaster> oh
13:21:50 <AnMaster> right
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13:22:02 <AnMaster> you mean 0/1 problem
13:22:03 <ehird> hmm
13:22:06 <AnMaster> which is plain messy
13:22:07 <ehird> AnMaster: i think that's a new kind of fallacy
13:22:25 <ehird> "You don't think X? Well, what about <completely untrue thing>? Would you think X then?"
13:23:01 <AnMaster> ehird, it is a philosophical construct for exploring your mind or something
13:23:02 <AnMaster> ;P
13:23:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Deeeeeep.
13:23:11 <ais523> AnMaster: not just that, try writing, say 15 March 4 BC in ISO format
13:23:19 <ais523> there isn't an obvious way to do it
13:23:22 * ehird considers making all his programs test for >= Y10K
13:23:25 <ais523> and yes, 0/1 is messy too
13:23:29 <AnMaster> ais523, Well, the calender changed since then
13:23:29 <AnMaster> soo
13:23:35 <AnMaster> what calender
13:23:35 <ehird> and if so, print "Why the fuck are you using this outdated piece of shit, seriously, it's thousands of years old!"
13:23:36 <ais523> ehird: also test for more than 30 days in September
13:23:40 <ehird> "8 thousand or so years old!"
13:23:42 <ehird> "Christ!"
13:23:50 <ais523> AnMaster: hmm... the one they were using at the time, so Julian, I reckon
13:24:04 <AnMaster> ais523, what about other cultures?
13:24:16 <AnMaster> Why so centered on Europe?
13:24:19 <ais523> and there was a big row at Wikipedia about autoformatting dates, because they claimed that reformatting a date implies a different calendar
13:24:20 <AnMaster> what about China?
13:24:29 <ais523> AnMaster: well the date I used was significant in Roman history if I have my dates right
13:24:44 <ais523> and taking the format in China would make more sense if I had used a Chinese date format to start with
13:24:48 <ais523> but yes, I agree with you
13:25:31 <AnMaster> ais523, + they didn't use leapyears for a long time, so you would have to consider that too
13:25:40 <AnMaster> probably
13:25:50 <ais523> back then they definitely used leapyears
13:25:54 <ais523> but 1 every 4 years
13:25:58 <ais523> no corrections for centuries
13:26:05 <AnMaster> ais523, ah right.
13:26:12 <ais523> this explains why the extra day was added to February
13:26:18 <ais523> because for ages it was the last month of the year
13:26:32 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure why or when new year moved from March 1 to January 1
13:26:37 <AnMaster> anyway considering when a date more than maybe 100-200 years old actually *was* is just too painful
13:26:52 <ais523> this is why proleptic Gregorian was invented, I think
13:26:55 <AnMaster> ais523, what weekday was it for example?
13:27:06 <ais523> it's the current calendar, but projected backwards through time
13:27:09 <AnMaster> which as far as I understand it, you need for ISO format
13:27:10 <AnMaster> right?
13:27:15 <oerjan> ais523: you don't mean 15 March 44 BC?
13:27:17 <ais523> and yes, probably
13:27:21 <ais523> oerjan: yes, that was it
13:27:31 <ais523> I knew there was something wrong with it, just wasn't sure what...
13:27:51 <oerjan> the 15 March itself is enough of a clue there :)
13:27:58 <ais523> yes
13:27:59 <AnMaster> ais523, it would have been different, iirc the romans moved the point of their new year once in their history at least. No idea when that was
13:28:05 <AnMaster> but I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere
13:28:34 <AnMaster> could have been earlier or later
13:28:37 <ehird> <ais523> I'm not entirely sure why or when new year moved from March 1 to January 1
13:28:49 <ehird> its quite odd
13:28:53 <AnMaster> ehird, ah thanks, must have missed that line
13:28:55 <ehird> shouldnt the start of the year be the start of a season, really
13:29:00 <AnMaster> and I think I heard the reason
13:29:09 <ehird> i mean...
13:29:14 <ehird> year starting in december would make sense
13:29:20 <AnMaster> something about having time to prepare for wars after elections
13:29:22 <AnMaster> or such
13:29:34 <AnMaster> ehird, why December? that is the middle of the winter
13:29:39 <AnMaster> no not the middle
13:29:42 <AnMaster> but well in it
13:29:49 <AnMaster> far from the start of the season
13:30:05 <ehird> wait
13:30:12 <ehird> AnMaster: what are the swedish seasons
13:30:20 <ehird> see, i forgot to think
13:30:25 <ehird> that other countries had different seasons :-P
13:30:51 <ais523> ehird: what about it?
13:30:54 <oerjan> AnMaster: winter solstice
13:30:59 <ehird> ais523: wat
13:31:03 <ais523> well, mostly the northern hemisphere has one set, the southern hemisphere has the opposite, and places near the equator are weird
13:31:03 <AnMaster> ehird, spring (vår), summer (sommar), autumn (höst), winter (vinter)
13:31:08 <ais523> but there are lots of exceptions
13:31:09 <AnMaster> or what did you mean?
13:31:13 <oerjan> it's logical to start on a solstice or equinox
13:31:19 <ehird> AnMaster: same months, then, ok, it's probably my fault
13:31:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes
13:31:22 <ehird> its early
13:31:23 <ais523> [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 119 seconds.
13:31:25 <ais523> not bad!
13:31:28 <AnMaster> ehird, well months are mostly the same too
13:31:33 <ehird> what months are in winter this hemisphere...
13:31:37 <ehird> i was thinking it started in december
13:31:40 * ehird is tired, confused, bla
13:31:45 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on how far north you are
13:31:51 * ehird nods
13:32:10 <ehird> which, i think, explains why start of a season is a crap year start point
13:32:11 <ehird> :-p
13:32:26 <AnMaster> if you define winter based on mean temperature. Which iirc is the the basis for the official definitions used in Sweden
13:32:49 <AnMaster> something like Spring when mean temperature have been over x degrees for at least y days in a row
13:32:56 <AnMaster> don't know exact values
13:33:23 <AnMaster> (so even if it get colder just a few days later, it is still spring then)
13:33:28 <ehird> winter here starts in december
13:33:31 <ehird> not december 1 though obviously
13:33:34 <ais523> in the UK they have a whole television series dedicated to trying to determine when Spring starts by watching the behaviour of the wildlife
13:33:50 <ehird> ais523: haha, i haven't heard of that
13:33:56 <AnMaster> ehird, well the temperature for winter usually happens in middle of November or earlier
13:34:08 <ais523> with people sending in evidence from over the country
13:34:14 <ehird> well its october right now, and i'm freezing :-)
13:34:14 <AnMaster> here that is
13:34:15 <ais523> although mostly it's just an excuse to show cute pictures of baby foxes and such
13:34:18 <AnMaster> ehird, so am I
13:34:26 <AnMaster> but still just autumn iirc
13:34:33 <ehird> yea
13:34:46 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_(season)#Definition_of_spring
13:34:58 <ais523> ehird: I'm surprised you missed it, they generally advertise it furiously in the weather programs on the BBC during March
13:35:10 <ehird> ais523: i don't generally watch all that much tv
13:35:15 <ais523> ah, ok
13:35:18 <AnMaster> wtf, "Summer" have a "popular culture" section
13:35:20 <AnMaster> that's insane
13:35:20 <ais523> I mostly watch it for the theme music
13:35:21 <AnMaster> hehe
13:35:32 <AnMaster> has*
13:35:33 <ehird> ais523: you still haven't named it, i may have heard of it in the back of my mind :-)
13:35:35 <ehird> but forgotten about it
13:35:38 <ais523> AnMaster: everything on Wikipedia has a popular culture section or will have one eventually, it's one of the Rules of the Internet
13:35:44 <ais523> ehird: Springwatch
13:35:51 <ehird> ahh, that thing
13:36:01 <ehird> yeah, i knew of it but forgotten
13:36:14 <AnMaster> ais523, it is easy in Sweden, since it is officially defined based on mean temperature
13:36:24 <ehird> ais523: is that the official story though, it's trying to figure out the start of spring?
13:36:26 <ehird> hahahahah
13:36:28 <oerjan> ais523: i vaguely recall an xkcd on that
13:36:31 <ais523> yes, it is the official story
13:36:33 <AnMaster> "SMHI definierar vår som när dygnsmedeltemperaturen är stigande och över noll grader i minst sju dagar."
13:36:38 <AnMaster> translation shortly
13:36:49 <ais523> but as I said it's mostly an excuse to show cute wildlife pictures
13:38:37 <oerjan> "The first month of the year continued to be Ianuarius, as it had been since 153 BC." from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar
13:38:42 <AnMaster> SMHI (Swedish Met office basically) defines spring as: when the mean temperature of the full-24 hour period (don't know English word, in Swedish dag indicates the 12 hours the sun is up, but dygn the full 24 hours) is increasing and is over 0 degrees for at least 7 days in a row
13:39:01 <ais523> oerjan: ok, so it was a pretty old change
13:39:02 <AnMaster> would really like to know the name for 24 hour period in English, I assume there is one
13:39:15 <AnMaster> assuming day is just the 12 "non-night" hours
13:39:27 <AnMaster> if it isn't then what is the name for just that part
13:39:32 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
13:39:43 <ais523> AnMaster: they're both called "day"
13:39:45 <ais523> which is really confusing
13:39:52 <AnMaster> ais523, how confusing indeed
13:39:52 <ais523> occasionally you have to say which you mean
13:40:33 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway is there no such easy definition of spring in UK?
13:40:46 <ais523> no, I don't think so
13:40:55 <AnMaster> there are similar ones for the other seasons
13:41:09 <ehird> day is 24 hours to me
13:41:16 <ehird> but "today" means:
13:41:24 <ehird> if it's day, -> this day
13:41:28 <ehird> if it's night, -> following day
13:41:33 <ehird> (where day in that definition means 12 hours)
13:41:42 <ehird> it's only confusing if you think about it.
13:42:02 <AnMaster> ah the summer definition is when it is over 10 degrees for 7 days in a row
13:42:10 <oerjan> http://xkcd.com/446/ was it
13:42:16 <ehird> 10 degrees, lol
13:42:24 <ehird> you poor cold swedes :}
13:42:28 <AnMaster> ehird, in north sweden that is reasonable
13:42:48 <AnMaster> however where I live it is mostly 18-25 or so during the summer holidays
13:42:58 <oerjan> it's recently dipped below 10 C here
13:42:59 <AnMaster> at least in July and August
13:43:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, did that a few weeks ago here
13:43:21 <oerjan> maybe a couple weeks
13:44:42 <oerjan> 9 today, says yr.no
13:44:54 <ehird> idea
13:45:16 <ehird> someone write an esolang for composing music (kind of an anti-fuge, i guess)
13:45:17 <ehird> then
13:45:24 <ehird> set some base characteristics about music
13:45:24 <ehird> then
13:45:32 <ehird> divide it into seperate parts for people
13:45:39 <ehird> and we each write a program
13:45:42 <ehird> and then they're stuck together
13:45:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, what is the Norwegian equivalent for SHMI btw?
13:45:46 <ehird> and that is #esoteric's anthem
13:45:53 <oerjan> what does SHMI stand for
13:45:59 <oerjan> ah
13:46:03 <AnMaster> "Sveriges meteorologiska och hydrologiska institut"
13:46:20 <oerjan> "Meteorologisk institutt" in norway too
13:46:45 <oerjan> (that website is from them btw)
13:47:09 <AnMaster> according to Swedish wikipedia, they also do oceanography stuff
13:47:19 <oerjan> although they compete with Storm Weather Center
13:48:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw how is "yr.no" an abbreviation for "Meteorologisk institutt"..? I don't get it
13:48:31 <oerjan> it's not their main website
13:48:40 <AnMaster> why yr.no though..
13:48:43 <oerjan> it's a site they operate together with NRK
13:48:59 <oerjan> yr = er, wait a second
13:49:25 <AnMaster> NRK is like SVT + SR right?
13:49:36 <oerjan> "drizzle", i think
13:49:37 <AnMaster> (or for the UK ppl here: Like BBC)
13:49:43 <oerjan> AnMaster: yeah
13:50:12 -!- moozilla has quit (Connection timed out).
13:50:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, "drizzle"? What is the Norwegian word for that?
13:50:20 <oerjan> "yr" :D
13:50:25 <AnMaster> oh
13:50:26 <AnMaster> right
13:50:51 <ais523> hmm... there must be even more drizzle in Norway than there is in the UK for it to have a short name like that
13:50:52 <AnMaster> read that as abbreviation... so I thought it was the y part only
13:51:11 <ehird> haha
13:51:13 <ehird> yr = drizzle
13:51:20 <ehird> what a waste of a two letter word
13:51:21 <oerjan> don't know if there's a backronym for it
13:51:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, intersting the Swedish word "yr" means vertigo
13:51:58 <oerjan> that's "r" in norwegian
13:52:03 <AnMaster> and I suggest ais523 doesn't try to read something into *that*
13:52:05 <oerjan> well, the adjective
13:52:11 <ais523> AnMaster: heh
13:52:34 <oerjan> actually "yr" also has another meaning which is slightly close
13:53:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm yrsel would be the noun vertigo I think.
13:53:22 <AnMaster> yr is indeed adjective in Swedish too
13:53:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, also was that ör btw?
13:53:32 <ehird> vertigo...ry?
13:53:36 <ehird> how is vertigo an adjective
13:53:37 <oerjan> AnMaster: o with slash
13:54:17 <oerjan> "yr" also means "wild"
13:54:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think "ör" in Swedish have something to do with fishing, though I may very well be confusing it with some similar word. Fishing never really interested me
13:54:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah yes you can be "yr av glädje" in Swedish as well
13:54:55 <AnMaster> which is not same yr as "yr av att stå i toppen på ett torn och titta ned"
13:55:29 <oerjan> cannot find "r" in swedish wiktionary
13:55:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, may be dialect then
13:56:11 <AnMaster> Swedish wikipedia says it is a place name
13:56:12 <AnMaster> hm
13:56:17 <AnMaster> well that too
13:57:30 <oerjan> actually there's a norwegian fish known as "uer", pronounced "ur" in my dialect at least
13:57:31 <AnMaster> hm apperently I was wrong, it is an old word, still found in placenames: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svenska_ortnamns%C3%A4ndelser#-.C3.B6r
13:57:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, that may in fact be öring?
13:57:43 <AnMaster> or whatever
13:57:44 <oerjan> also, "rret" = "trout"
13:57:55 <AnMaster> trout, no clue what that is in Swedish
13:58:01 <AnMaster> I probably know the Swedish word
13:58:08 <AnMaster> I just don't know which one it actually is
13:58:08 <oerjan> that's ring
13:58:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh
13:58:36 <oerjan> or wait
13:58:47 <oerjan> "salmon trout"
13:59:32 <oerjan> apparently there are several "trouts"
13:59:48 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trout
14:00:06 <oerjan> also, a favorite fish for slapping people with
14:00:09 <oklocod> well, it's not exactly an endangered specie
14:00:13 <oklocod> *species
14:00:18 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol.
14:00:27 <oklopol> i don't want a trout vs. cod joke.
14:00:29 <oerjan> oklopol: trying to be less fishy?
14:00:49 <oklopol> :P
14:00:56 <AnMaster> trout vs. cod?
14:00:57 <AnMaster> eh
14:00:58 <oklopol> you can't use that joke forever
14:00:58 <AnMaster> what?
14:01:12 <oerjan> "uer" = "redfish" in english i believe
14:01:14 <oklopol> AnMaster: well aren't they like fisherizers?
14:01:22 * AnMaster googles fisherizers
14:01:30 <AnMaster> one hit
14:01:38 <AnMaster> 1. Lists (PondTasksRemaining) - View All Lists Edit List Item Web ...
14:01:44 <oerjan> oh what the heck
14:02:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, doesn't seem related
14:02:22 <oerjan> i'm not quite sure
14:02:45 <oerjan> uer = "Sebastes marinus"
14:02:51 <oklopol> fisherizers are fish
14:02:59 <oerjan> i thinking going via latin is the safest way of getting the terms correct
14:03:20 <oerjan> ring = "Salmo Trutta"
14:03:57 <oerjan> ah, "rose fish" the first
14:04:24 <Asztal> we would probably have all these cool fish names if the normans didn't invade :(
14:05:20 <oerjan> that redfish article is messed up
14:06:29 <oerjan> some vandalism
14:14:35 <ehird> ssssss
14:14:54 * oerjan watches in horror as ehird turns into a snake
14:15:00 <ehird> SSSSSSSSSSSsssssssssssss!!!
14:15:03 <ehird> SSSSsssssssssssSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!
14:15:08 * ehird spits poison at oerjan
14:15:09 <ehird> SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
14:15:22 <oerjan> note to self: stop encouraging ehird :D
14:15:26 * ehird decides poison is too slow-acting
14:15:32 * ehird gobbles up oerjan
14:15:35 <ehird> *gulp*
14:15:37 <ehird> SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
14:15:52 * oerjan digs himself out ---|)
14:16:06 * ehird eats his own stomach to stop oerjan
14:16:07 <ehird> SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
14:16:41 * oerjan watches in horror as ehird turns into a singularity by eating himself
14:16:55 <ehird> MWAHAHAH- I mean, SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
14:18:15 * oerjan buys an antidote on ebay
14:18:37 <oerjan> fortunately this is very slow poison
14:19:03 * ehird cuts ethernet cable
14:19:06 <ehird> >:D
14:19:07 <ehird> SSSSSSSSSS
14:19:34 * oerjan curses his landlady for not getting the wireless fixed
14:21:55 <oerjan> don't tell me i have to do something drastic like walking outside to a pharmacy
14:22:30 <oklopol> just buy them on the way to the bus
14:22:53 <oerjan> there are no shops between here and the bus stop
14:23:02 <ehird> oerjan: how can you walk outside
14:23:05 <ehird> i've eaten you
14:23:11 <oklopol> did you know one of your things is you need to hurry to get into the bus in time?
14:23:11 <ehird> er
14:23:13 <ehird> i mean...
14:23:15 <ehird> SSSSSSSSSSSSSsssssssssssSSSSSS
14:24:16 <oerjan> oklopol: you mean, i don't log off until i have to leave. that's different.
14:24:51 <oklopol> oerjan: but you need to get in the bus. the hurrying isn't the point i guess.
14:25:19 <oerjan> if i'm _really_ in a hurry for a given bus i usually wait until the next bus
14:25:53 <oerjan> usually because i didn't manage to tear myself off the computer
14:25:55 <oklopol> but you still need to get in the bus :P it's your thing
14:26:06 <oerjan> ok ok
14:26:15 <oerjan> for a certain value of "need"
14:27:09 <oerjan> there _used_ to be a grocery shop next to the bus stop, but they tore it down and built a home for the elderly
14:27:21 <ehird> oerjan: Stop talking. I have eaten you.
14:27:34 <ehird> hi ais523
14:27:42 <oerjan> and without my cell phone too
14:27:44 <oklopol> oerjan: okay, perhaps your thing is just mentioning the bus occasionally? it's just that's a bit more boring.
14:28:48 * oerjan resigns to being digested
14:29:32 * ehird gives oerjan a laptop
14:29:47 <ehird> Go hack in to the firewall mainframe IP with visual basic.
14:29:54 <ehird> You can route the DLL past my stomach walls.
14:29:57 <ehird> SSSSSSSSSSSssssssss
14:30:17 <oerjan> visual basic? i think i prefer death.
14:30:21 * oerjan ducks
14:30:35 * ehird watches his stomach acids nibble at oerjan's fingers
14:30:46 <oerjan> also i don't think i ever claimed to be that kind of hacker
14:30:57 <oerjan> or much of any kind of hacker, really
14:31:08 <ehird> Bah.
14:31:13 * ehird opens the door to his stomach.
14:31:21 <ehird> Ther's the boring way out.
14:31:23 * oerjan rolls out
14:31:32 * ehird figurse out what to do with his singularity.
14:31:36 <ehird> ...
14:31:37 <ehird> eat it!
14:31:38 * ehird eats it
14:31:43 <ehird> Mm.
14:31:45 <ehird> Infinitely wholesome.
14:31:49 <oerjan> LHC eat your heart out
14:32:48 <oerjan> if our society were based on magic, the LHC might actually have _had_ a heart
14:33:39 <oerjan> and probably been an acronym for something else
14:33:54 <oerjan> Living Hell Converter or something
14:39:11 <ehird> So.
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14:41:56 <Slereah_> Legendary Hat Collector
14:42:58 <oklopol> i think it's not much more than it was before it was what it now is it now?
14:43:42 * oerjan refuses to believe oklopol is trying to make sense
14:44:32 <oklopol> well what to refuse when you're being asked and if they think they already know then what can you do really i don't think anything much what do you think?
14:45:06 <oklopol> i don't, definitely not what it thinks they are.
14:45:28 <oklopol> encyclopedia of algorithms, that's one sexy book
14:45:38 <oklopol> it's like condensed sex
14:45:44 <oklopol> only algorithms
14:50:10 <Slereah_> oklopol, you are perverted
14:50:16 <Slereah_> Does bubble sorting make you hard?
14:51:05 <oerjan> only merge sort i would imagine
14:51:23 <oerjan> maybe also heap sort
14:51:45 <oklopol> i like heap sort and mergesort better than quicksort at least
14:51:58 <oklopol> but can't say i don't enjoy bubble sort as well
14:54:20 <Slereah_> What about bogosorting?
14:54:23 <Slereah_> Are you into that?
14:54:30 <Slereah_> It's okay, nothing to be ashamed about
15:08:11 <oklopol> not particularlyy
15:08:33 <oklopol> *particularly
15:08:41 <oklopol> i'm not that interested in sorting altogether
15:08:48 <oerjan> those finns and their double vowels
15:12:44 <Slereah_> mse
15:14:57 <ehird> Today on the "Paths that make me RAGE" channel:
15:15:00 <ehird> /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.5/lib/python2.5/site-packages/
15:39:04 <oerjan> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7650103.stm
15:39:50 <oerjan> "Medicine: Dan Ariely for demonstrating that expensive fake medicine is more effective than cheap fake medicine."
15:40:10 <ehird> xDDDDD
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16:28:33 <ais523> hmm... anyone here know any lazy imperative languages?
16:28:49 -!- Hiato has joined.
16:28:56 <ais523> hi Hiato
16:29:16 <Hiato> hey ais523
16:29:32 <Hiato> what's cooking?
16:29:32 * ais523 is idling and saying hi to people in the hope of starting a conversation
16:29:49 <ais523> and working on an insane project for University which many would consider esolang-related
16:30:59 <Slereah_> :o
16:31:10 <Hiato> quite
16:31:27 <ais523> that's why I asked if anyone knew of any lazy imperative languages earlier
16:31:42 <oerjan> i think those would be esoteric by definition
16:31:58 <ais523> well, there's one involved in my University project
16:32:01 <oerjan> sane laziness requires purity, imperativeness is the opposite of purity
16:32:13 <ais523> but it acts like an eager language really
16:32:33 <ais523> we're implementing it by compiling into a functional lanugage
16:32:42 <ais523> with variables stored in what is similar to a State monad
16:32:58 <ais523> commands happen eagerly due to the monad-chains, it's just expressions that are lazy
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16:33:33 <oerjan> ic so a language with strict distinction betwen commands and expressions might work
16:33:50 <oerjan> aka haskell, really :D
16:34:29 <oerjan> someone said haskell is the world's finest imperative language
16:34:44 <ais523> yes, the language reminds me of a language which is Haskell really
16:34:48 <ais523> just disguised as Algol
16:35:38 <ais523> also, my experiences with it, and other experiences with brainfuck, convince me that reading the value of a variable is not as fundamental an operation as was first thought
16:35:42 <oerjan> Simon Peyton-Jones, apparently
16:35:52 <ais523> in brainfuck, reading the value of a variable sets it to 0, in most cases
16:36:01 <ais523> thus you have to be clever to duplicate a variable's value
16:36:15 <ais523> hardware compilation has the same problem, but with functions
16:36:30 <ais523> if you call a function more than once, you need some way to return the result to the right physical location
16:36:45 <ais523> and if you call a function more than once simultaneously, you need two physical copies of the function
16:38:06 <ais523> does all this sound esoteric enough for this channel?
16:38:16 <oerjan> yeah
16:38:41 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaafssfggjtykuyiliuio;;;opp;p;pp;p;p;;p;p;ikkhbnfcccdregrjukuyllikjujugtfrdeddfrghhhjjhugyfgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgddgdgdgdgdgdgddddd
16:38:42 <ehird> ^ discuss
16:39:12 <oerjan> ehird: i thought you were 13, not 3
16:39:25 <ehird> oerjan: oh, that 1 was a typo
16:39:30 <ehird> 3 year olds can't type very well
16:39:37 <Slereah_> butt
16:39:40 <oerjan> probably
16:40:03 <oerjan> those french and their double consonants
16:41:31 <oerjan> there is actually remarkably little keyboard repetition in that
16:41:56 <oerjan> mostly at the ends
16:42:51 <oerjan> also, you have failed to provide a semantics for your language
16:43:12 <ais523> I don't know the semantics or the syntax of the language in question yet
16:43:14 <ais523> just the paradigm
16:43:19 <oerjan> i was speaking to ehird :D
16:43:24 <ais523> yes, I guessed
16:43:35 <ais523> also, what's the name for the paradigm VHDL uses?
16:43:39 <ais523> I can't remember
16:43:42 <ehird> VHDLy
16:45:11 <ehird> brrrrrrrrrrr
16:45:14 <ehird> freeeeeeeeeeeezing
16:45:18 <oerjan> "Hardware description languages" is in the category list
16:51:35 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
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17:20:32 * ais523 ponders what a fully functional hardware description language would be like
17:23:11 <Slereah_> Well, I am fully functional.
17:23:16 <Slereah_> And trained in many techniques.
17:23:22 <ais523> heh
17:23:26 <Slereah_> Also, what about the Lisp machines?
17:23:29 <ais523> are you a hardware description language?
17:23:38 <ais523> but yes, Lisp machines are interesting
17:23:45 <ais523> they're functional hardware interpreters, though
17:23:57 <Slereah_> Hurray, I don't know the difference! :D
17:23:57 <ais523> I'm wondering if it's possible to /compile/ a functional program into hardware
17:24:05 <Slereah_> Oh.
17:24:14 <Slereah_> I thought that's what Lisp machines did.
17:24:22 <ais523> no, they run Lisp nativelt
17:24:23 <ais523> *natively
17:24:28 <ais523> that's an interpreter, not a compiler
17:24:37 <ais523> hardware compilation produces a piece of hardware that only runs one program
17:25:12 <Slereah_> Isn't the very fact of writing the program on a lisp machine kinda compiling it?
17:25:19 <Slereah_> Like writing machine code on a usual computer
17:25:35 <ais523> well, a Lisp machine has lisp as its machine code
17:26:00 <Slereah_> Yes.
17:28:28 <ehird> ais523: wrong.
17:28:33 <ais523> about what?
17:28:35 <ais523> Lisp machines?
17:28:42 <ais523> certainly they were capable of running more than one program
17:28:42 <ehird> 'a lisp machine has lisp as its machine code'
17:28:52 <ais523> which makes them interps
17:29:13 <ais523> even in imperative languages, an x86 processor (for instance) is an interpreter for x86 machine language
17:29:30 <ais523> hardware compilation goes a step further, you start with a program and end up with a piece of hardware which runs only that program
17:30:12 <Slereah_> Isn't it more like a piece of code on the hardware?
17:30:28 <ais523> Slereah_: what, Lisp machines, x86, or hardware compilation?
17:31:06 <Slereah_> I'm getting confused
17:31:15 <Slereah_> I should go back to watching this Batman reveiw
17:39:55 -!- Mony has joined.
17:41:27 <Mony> plop
17:42:00 <Slereah_> Hulo tharn french people
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18:11:36 <AnMaster> hm this computer's inside really makes no sense...
18:13:11 <AnMaster> like that main connector thing for the mobo, huge unruly thing normally even. But here the connector is mounted such that the cable is resting against the cpu heatsink to reach the contact. there is no other way
18:13:20 <AnMaster> wtf did whoever built this computer think?
18:14:26 <AnMaster> (constrast with the dell close to it, while it's inside is pretty strange, it is all very organised, and easy to service
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18:40:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: Re fungot's language model, I haven't bothered to update it at all with new logs yet.
18:40:38 <fungot> fizzie: never heard of it before and after it now
18:45:40 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:48:07 <oerjan> fungot: what, you have anterograde amnesia? how awful!
18:48:08 <fungot> oerjan: i'm starting to think there's no way it could conceivably be interpreted as ellipsis for the internal macro, which *is* a function.
18:51:13 <ehird> a person who can only remember the future would rock
18:51:41 <oerjan> iirc Merlin did that in some legends or books
18:52:34 <ehird> oerjan: hmm
18:52:46 <ehird> so you could remember your teachings, you would have to have been taught some time in the future
18:52:47 <ehird> BUT
18:52:52 <ehird> you'll immediately forget your teaching as soon as you recieve it
18:53:00 <ehird> so: you need to be taught in your craft on your deathbed
18:53:31 <oerjan> for added weirdness, also age backwards
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18:59:23 <psygnisfive> mm lovely
18:59:40 <psygnisfive> guys i discovered something interesting about english syntax/semantics that might be interesting in an esolang :o
18:59:52 <oerjan> it's insane?
19:00:05 <psygnisfive> :P
19:00:06 <oerjan> but we all knew that already!
19:00:22 <psygnisfive> english has disjunction scope quantifiers. :o
19:00:25 <psygnisfive> er
19:00:27 <psygnisfive> not quantifiers
19:00:28 <psygnisfive> indicators
19:00:42 <oerjan> [citation needed]
19:00:58 <psygnisfive> consider:
19:01:15 <psygnisfive> John is looking for a fedora or a bowler
19:01:18 <psygnisfive> this could mean either
19:01:49 <psygnisfive> John is looking for some hat X | (X is-a fedora) or (X is-a bowler)
19:01:56 <psygnisfive> or it could mean
19:02:12 <Slereah_> Fedoras are bettar
19:02:22 <psygnisfive> (John is looking for some hat X | X is-a fedora) or (John is looking for some hat X | X is-a bowler)
19:02:34 <oklopol> what's the difference?'
19:02:47 <psygnisfive> the difference is that in the first one
19:02:52 <psygnisfive> john is just looking for a hat
19:02:58 <psygnisfive> and the hat can be a fedora
19:03:01 <oklopol> oh, right
19:03:02 <psygnisfive> or it can be a bowler
19:03:05 <psygnisfive> he'd be happy with either
19:03:10 <psygnisfive> he just needs one or the other
19:03:13 <psygnisfive> in the SECONd however
19:03:20 <psygnisfive> he wants a specific kind of hat
19:03:25 <psygnisfive> only one kind of hat
19:03:28 <oklopol> but the speaker doesn't know which
19:03:30 <oklopol> yeah
19:03:33 <psygnisfive> right
19:03:42 <psygnisfive> so the disjunction has two different scopes
19:03:52 <psygnisfive> in one it has scope over the lower predication
19:04:00 <psygnisfive> fedora(x) | bowler(x)
19:04:15 <psygnisfive> while in th other it has scope over the whole statement
19:04:40 <psygnisfive> (seeks(John, x) & fedora(x)) | (seeks(John, x) & bowler(x))
19:05:10 <psygnisfive> seeks(John, x) & (fedora(x) | bowler(x))
19:05:23 <psygnisfive> but now consider what happens when we introduce "either"
19:05:30 <psygnisfive> John is looking for either a fedora or a bowler
19:05:36 <psygnisfive> here we still have both potential readings
19:05:54 <psygnisfive> "John is looking for either a fedora or a bowler and he doesn't care which"
19:05:59 <psygnisfive> "John is looking for either a fedora or a bowler and I know know which"
19:06:01 <psygnisfive> but but but!
19:06:10 <oerjan> and and and and
19:06:13 <psygnisfive> Either John is looking for a fedora or a bowler
19:06:20 <psygnisfive> this ONLY has the higher scope reading!
19:06:32 <psygnisfive> "Either John is looking for a fedora or a bowler, and he doesn't care which" == BAD
19:06:42 <oklopol> yes
19:06:43 <psygnisfive> "Either John is looking for a fedora or a bowler and I don't remember which" == FINE
19:07:05 <psygnisfive> so "either" can be used to force higher scope readings by placing it further left in the structure of the sentence
19:07:07 <psygnisfive> :o
19:07:14 <oklopol> that's actually quite an interesting scoping ambiguity
19:07:20 <psygnisfive> yeah
19:07:22 <psygnisfive> it totally is
19:07:32 <oklopol> there should be more ambiguity in programming languages
19:07:33 <psygnisfive> theres lots of crazy scope stuff like that in languages
19:07:49 <psygnisfive> there should more ambiguity with cool ambiguity resolution techniques
19:07:55 <oklopol> cise is really the only language i can think of where there's any ambiguity
19:08:09 <psygnisfive> we need a language where you have a disjunctive or, but you also have an or-scope indicator
19:08:24 <ais523> oklopol: lexing Cyclexa
19:08:34 <ais523> but it has precedence rules to resolve the ambiguity
19:08:57 <psygnisfive> theres also some cool scope stuff regarding question words
19:09:08 <oklopol> ais523: precedence rules aren't really distinct from just unambiguous parsing
19:09:09 <psygnisfive> for instance, in english
19:09:20 <oklopol> in cise, you may need to reparse at runtime, if types change
19:09:25 <ais523> well, there's more than one way to tokenise things
19:09:25 <oerjan> oklopol: perl has some ambiguity in its syntax afair
19:09:30 <ais523> but it's done statically
19:09:35 <psygnisfive> "what did john buy" has the reading "for what x's, john bought x"
19:09:39 <ais523> in Cyclexa, anyway
19:09:52 <ais523> in Perl there's more than one way to interpret some of the tokens
19:09:59 <ais523> and which is chosen can vary at BEGIN-time
19:10:12 <oklopol> begin-time?
19:10:15 <ais523> with the result that parsing Perl in finite time is impossible
19:10:18 <oklopol> i don't know shit about perl
19:10:20 <psygnisfive> and "who bought a hat" has the reading "for what people x, x bought a hat"
19:10:27 <oklopol> psygnisfive: yes
19:10:28 <psygnisfive> but what if you have two wh-phrases?
19:10:39 <ais523> oklopol: you can set code that runs before the rest of the code is parsed
19:10:43 <psygnisfive> "who bought what" reads as "for what x and what y, x bought y"
19:11:06 <psygnisfive> so NORMALLY if you want scope over the sentence, you raise the WH phrase to the top/beginning of the sentence
19:11:21 <psygnisfive> but with two or more WH phrases, one has to remain low, and it STILL gets scope
19:11:53 <psygnisfive> hungarian, bulgarian, and serbocroatian, on the other hand, REQUIRE that you raise the WH phrases to get scope with them
19:11:54 <oerjan> psygnisfive: who bought, and what?
19:12:00 <oklopol> well i think it's just convention, because you *can* do "you bought what?" it's just that has quite a strongly emphasizing connotation on the what
19:12:06 <oklopol> hmm
19:12:09 <psygnisfive> "who bought, and what" is completely ungrammatical, oerjan :p
19:12:23 <oerjan> psygnisfive: no it isn't
19:12:24 <psygnisfive> oklopol: "you bought what?" is actually not g enerally a question
19:12:24 <psygnisfive> like
19:12:39 <psygnisfive> oerjan, yes it is.
19:12:47 <psygnisfive> oklopol: you're not just asking what the person bought
19:12:52 <psygnisfive> you're asking for CONFIRMATION of what you heard
19:13:09 <psygnisfive> "you bought WHAT? a COCKRING? no!"
19:13:27 <oklopol> psygnisfive: it's still a question
19:13:30 <psygnisfive> sure
19:13:38 <psygnisfive> but its a different kind of question
19:13:41 <psygnisfive> called an echo question
19:14:05 <psygnisfive> where you're not asking for new information but rather asking for a repetition of the phrase targeted by the WH replacement
19:14:12 <oklopol> that's true.
19:14:41 <psygnisfive> and similarly, you'd never ask "what did you buy?" when you want confirmation or repetition
19:14:43 <oerjan> ^echo what?
19:14:43 <fungot> what? what?
19:14:44 <oklopol> but i don't find this that interesting
19:14:44 <psygnisfive> you'd sound deaf
19:14:48 <psygnisfive> "I bought a hat!"
19:14:53 <psygnisfive> "What did you buy?"
19:14:57 <psygnisfive> well, you could, actually
19:15:01 <psygnisfive> you'd just need special intonation
19:15:06 <oklopol> yes
19:15:16 <psygnisfive> but its not normal question intonation
19:15:26 <psygnisfive> its the same intonaiton on "what" in both echo questions
19:15:27 <psygnisfive> anyway
19:15:35 <psygnisfive> thats not what i meant to talk about :p
19:15:43 <oklopol> i see
19:15:54 <psygnisfive> there are interesting cases in english where scope can be pulled from a REALLY deeply embedded element
19:15:55 <psygnisfive> consider:
19:17:04 <oklopol> i will consider, although briefly
19:17:10 <psygnisfive> gumme a sec :p
19:17:19 <psygnisfive> i forgot the examples
19:17:31 <oklopol> only had time to read like 20 pages yesterday, so my quota for today is enough to keep me awake all night
19:17:48 <oerjan> do not consider, lest ye be considered
19:17:50 <oklopol> i don't want to slip from my 500p/week minimum
19:18:26 <psygnisfive> 'ok consider:
19:18:42 <psygnisfive> *what* does John think [mary bought t]
19:18:48 <psygnisfive> where t indicates what *what* targets
19:19:00 <psygnisfive> e.g. for what X, John thinks [mary bought x]
19:19:17 <psygnisfive> now consider:
19:19:37 <psygnisfive> BAD: John thinks [*what* mary bought t]
19:19:42 <psygnisfive> but on the other hand:
19:19:49 <psygnisfive> John wonders [*what* mary bought t]
19:20:02 <psygnisfive> BAD: *what* does John wonder [Mary bought t]
19:20:29 <oklopol> that's just normal nesting
19:20:39 <psygnisfive> sure
19:20:42 <psygnisfive> in english it makes sense right
19:20:43 <oklopol> "what mary bought" there is a question embedded
19:20:50 <psygnisfive> yes it is!
19:20:54 <oklopol> yes!
19:21:01 <psygnisfive> but now check this out from chinese:
19:21:05 <oklopol> i'm probably missing your point
19:21:08 <oklopol> i will
19:21:13 <psygnisfive> well you need to see the chinese too ;)
19:21:20 <oklopol> ah
19:21:22 <oklopol> okily doc
19:21:32 <psygnisfive> keep in mind, chinese does NOT have any movement, so all the *what* phrases are in their original positions
19:21:34 <oerjan> it's all martian to me
19:21:38 <psygnisfive> glossing the chinese:
19:22:10 <psygnisfive> Zhangsan thinks [Lisi bought *what*] == *what* does Zhangsan think Lisi bought *t*
19:22:28 <psygnisfive> Zhangsan wonders [Lisi bought *what*] == Zhangsan wonders [*what* Lisi bought *t*]
19:22:42 <psygnisfive> the lower clauses are IDENTICAL in chinese
19:22:47 <pikhq> You and your linguistics.
19:22:53 <oklopol> psygnisfive: that's not all that interesting
19:23:10 <psygnisfive> but the verb specifies whether or not the lower clause can be interpreted as a question or a statement clause
19:23:12 <oklopol> question particles just happen to be context-insensitive, and can jump multiple levels up
19:23:14 <oklopol> hmm
19:23:19 <oklopol> oh
19:23:21 <psygnisfive> and thus BECAUSE the verb specifies this
19:23:26 <psygnisfive> if there IS a WH-phrase in the lower clause
19:23:41 <psygnisfive> the VERB decides whether or not the sentence AS A WHOLE is a question, or a statement.
19:23:56 <oklopol> that's actually quite an interesting type theoretical issue
19:24:19 <psygnisfive> simply because the verb specifies only one kind of clausal complement, and if there's a WH-phrase in that clausal complement, you can only interpret it one what, given the verb
19:24:20 <psygnisfive> its funky
19:24:20 <psygnisfive> :D
19:24:22 <oerjan> so how do you ask in chinese what someone is wondering about? :D
19:24:32 <oklopol> X wonders what
19:24:35 <psygnisfive> you wonder what
19:24:35 <psygnisfive> :P
19:24:56 <psygnisfive> but that's a *what* that targets the ENTIRE clausal complement
19:25:00 <psygnisfive> not something INSIDE the clausal complement
19:25:31 <oklopol> oerjan: it's a different issue how you ask what someone is wondering someone else bought
19:25:36 <oklopol> hmm
19:25:48 <oklopol> i think i failed to construct that
19:25:49 <psygnisfive> theres actually all sorts of really weird stuff that goes on with WH phrases
19:25:59 <psygnisfive> oklopol: yes you did
19:26:30 <psygnisfive> but you did so for precisely the same reasons we were just talking about :)
19:26:34 <psygnisfive> wonder takes a question phrase
19:26:45 <psygnisfive> a question clausal complement
19:26:57 <oklopol> psygnisfive: how do you say that?
19:27:02 <psygnisfive> and so that what, as in "ask *what* someone is wondering someone else bought" is a violation
19:27:04 <oklopol> it's not exactly something you ever need to ask
19:27:05 <psygnisfive> i mean, just look:
19:27:22 <psygnisfive> ask [*what* someone is wondering [someone else bought *t*]]
19:27:28 <psygnisfive> that's a violation as we pointed out earlier! :)
19:27:51 <psygnisfive> exact same violation as "*what* does john wonder [Mary bought *t*]"
19:27:52 <oklopol> well you gotta be able to ask that somehow
19:28:01 <psygnisfive> yes, you can ask, but periphrastically
19:28:11 <oerjan> but you can do it with two questions intermingled
19:28:11 <oklopol> and actually i think that's perfect english
19:28:17 <oklopol> oerjan: tru
19:28:22 <psygnisfive> oklopol, its not perfect english :p
19:28:25 <psygnisfive> its HORRIBLE english
19:28:37 <oklopol> psygnisfive: give me a better construction for it, will you?
19:28:39 <psygnisfive> but you're not native, you don't have these intuitions about english
19:28:42 <oerjan> what are you wondering whether i bought
19:28:47 <ehird> that is not horrible english psygnisfive
19:28:50 <psygnisfive> horrible oerjan
19:28:53 -!- LinuS has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:28:55 <psygnisfive> absolutely horrible
19:29:05 <ehird> oerjan's is horrible yes
19:29:06 <oerjan> but semantically meaningful
19:29:11 <psygnisfive> yes
19:29:14 <psygnisfive> but thats not the point oerjan
19:29:19 <psygnisfive> semantically we can understand a lot of stuff
19:29:29 <oklopol> psygnisfive: could you show me how to construct it better?
19:29:32 <psygnisfive> thats because we have a pragmatics system that can "make it work"
19:29:37 <psygnisfive> oklopol: its tricky to do in english
19:29:39 <psygnisfive> it'd be like..
19:30:12 <psygnisfive> what is the thing such that john wonders i mary bought that thing
19:30:17 <psygnisfive> wonders if**
19:30:40 <oklopol> well yeah you used like a variable there
19:30:45 <psygnisfive> yep
19:30:50 <oklopol> that's better, i do admit that
19:30:55 <psygnisfive> theres no WH-raising construction in english that lets you get that reading tho
19:31:03 <psygnisfive> and thats just part of english syntax
19:31:03 <oklopol> i disagree on not having an intuition about english.
19:31:14 <psygnisfive> well you're wrong ;)
19:31:37 <ehird> no psygnisfive
19:31:38 <ehird> hes not
19:31:39 <ehird> :|
19:31:41 <oklopol> my intuition has owned many natives.
19:31:46 <psygnisfive> you might have some intuition, yes ok. but i'd question it.
19:31:51 <psygnisfive> anyway
19:31:52 <oklopol> being native is not a magical way to know a language perfectly
19:31:57 <oerjan> all this linguistics is something up with which i will not put
19:32:10 <psygnisfive> interestingly, some languages DO let you say "what does john wonder mary bought"
19:32:12 <oklopol> :P
19:32:24 <oklopol> mitä john miettii maryn ostaneen
19:32:25 <oklopol> finnish
19:32:34 <oklopol> john miettii mitä mary osti
19:32:35 <oklopol> mitä is what
19:32:36 <ehird> 'What does John wonder Mary bought?' is fine english
19:32:47 -!- atrapado has joined.
19:32:53 <psygnisfive> oerjan: are you saying that linguists would not approve of "all this linguistics is something that i will not put up with"?
19:33:05 <psygnisfive> ehird: no its not, go ask some other people.
19:33:13 <oerjan> psygnisfive: perish the thought :D
19:33:17 <oklopol> psygnisfive: i think he was just making a complicated sentence for linguistic fun's sake
19:33:20 <ehird> psygnisfive: yes, because one person saying its not fine english without evidence against two people saying it's fine...
19:33:25 <ehird> you evidently win
19:33:33 <psygnisfive> oerjan: linguists wouldnt say that tho.
19:33:40 <oerjan> argh!!!!!!!!
19:33:42 <ehird> so much evidence and arguments we're seeing here
19:33:45 <psygnisfive> ehird: unfortunately, ehird, there's actually been RESEARCH into this
19:33:57 <ehird> psygnisfive: researching doesn't change the fact that its fine english
19:34:00 <psygnisfive> and the RESEARCH shows that most english speakers do not accept that sentence.
19:34:07 <ehird> you can stamp 'THIS IS CRAP ENGLISH' on a sentence all you want, and it does not make it so
19:34:07 <oerjan> psygnisfive: they will however argue incessantly about how they don't say that ;D
19:34:12 <psygnisfive> meaning that its NOT fine in english.
19:34:24 <psygnisfive> oerjan: no, they wont
19:34:28 <psygnisfive> infact
19:34:38 <psygnisfive> most theories of syntax REQUIRE that such things are permitted
19:34:47 <ehird> lol psygnisfive is proving oerjan's piont
19:34:48 <ehird> :D
19:34:50 <ehird> *point
19:35:03 <psygnisfive> oh, i see what you meant there
19:35:07 <psygnisfive> yes, we WILL argue that we dont say that :P
19:35:18 <oerjan> :D
19:35:28 <psygnisfive> because most people think we will. but they're confusing linguists with gradeschool english professors
19:35:43 <ehird> same thing
19:35:44 <ehird> :-)
19:35:55 <psygnisfive> linguists actually care about what SPEAKERS say, gradeschool english professors care what STRUNK AND WHITE say
19:36:24 <oerjan> THIS CRAP IS ENGLISH. THIS IS ENGLISH CRAP. ENGLISH IS THIS CRAP.
19:36:39 <ehird> English: Is this crap?
19:36:39 <psygnisfive> oh thats another english thing
19:36:40 <ehird> Yes.
19:36:57 <psygnisfive> "is" is the only main verb in american english that has sentential negation AFTER it.
19:37:02 <psygnisfive> consider:
19:37:09 <psygnisfive> I run <> I do not run
19:37:15 <ehird> butts
19:37:18 <ehird> Slereah_: butts
19:37:20 <psygnisfive> I eat pizza <> I do not eat pizza
19:37:24 <psygnisfive> etc etc
19:37:26 <psygnisfive> but
19:37:31 <ehird> Slereah_: many butts?
19:37:37 <psygnisfive> I am a student <> I am not a student
19:37:44 <psygnisfive> interesting!
19:37:47 <ehird> psygnisfive: I butts <> I not butts
19:37:59 <psygnisfive> auxiliary verbs do similar stuff.
19:38:03 <oklopol> psygnisfive: interestingness approved
19:38:08 <psygnisfive> :)
19:38:26 <psygnisfive> i think we should have an esolang with movement and funky scope.
19:38:31 <oklopol> well isn't that the way auxiliary verbs do it, and "is" is interesting because it does it *without* the subsentence
19:38:47 <psygnisfive> yeah, auxiliaries behave exactly like that
19:38:58 <oklopol> "i will not pizza"
19:39:03 * ehird pizzas
19:39:07 <psygnisfive> well thats not an auxiliary actually
19:39:11 <psygnisfive> its slightly different
19:39:11 <oklopol> but will wants an event, so... pizza would be converted to a verb
19:39:16 <psygnisfive> but yeah
19:39:20 <psygnisfive> more precisely, the FIRST auxiliary in the sentence appears before sentential negation
19:39:20 * ais523 remembers our discussion about gerunds
19:39:23 <ehird> I'LL PIZZA YOU
19:39:26 <ehird> IF YOU DON'T SHUT UP
19:39:29 <psygnisfive> unless theres a MODAL verb, like will, can, might, etc.
19:39:30 <ais523> we now know that oklopol is programming
19:39:36 <ais523> but what does "I am burning" mean?
19:39:40 <psygnisfive> in which case the first non-modal auxiliary appears AFTER the sentential negation
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19:39:50 <psygnisfive> ais: i means at the moment you're in the process of burning
19:39:51 <psygnisfive> it*
19:40:06 <psygnisfive> do you really need that explained to you? come now.
19:40:11 <psygnisfive> plus
19:40:13 <psygnisfive> thats not a gerund
19:40:16 <psygnisfive> thats a progressive
19:40:22 <oklopol> or that you *are* the process of burning, although i'm not sure that can be literally true
19:40:34 <ais523> no, I don't think I am
19:40:38 <psygnisfive> tho gerunds and progressives do share morphology in english.
19:40:41 <ais523> but am I on fire, or am I performing the action of burning
19:40:44 <oklopol> psygnisfive: it's a gerund
19:40:48 <oklopol> the speaker decides it
19:40:51 <psygnisfive> oklopol: it's not.
19:40:55 <psygnisfive> gerund is a technical term.
19:40:58 <psygnisfive> it means something specific.
19:40:59 <ais523> (actually neither, but the sentence I gave is ambiguous 3 ways)
19:41:12 <psygnisfive> most people learn it, but forget that it means what it means
19:41:20 <oklopol> as a gerund, wouldn't it mean "i am the act of burning"
19:41:21 <psygnisfive> and they confuse it with progressives.
19:41:30 <psygnisfive> yes, it could, i suppose
19:41:33 <oklopol> which, of course, is ambiguous still
19:41:34 * ehird gerunds
19:41:36 <oklopol> psygnisfive: then it was a gerund.
19:41:39 <ehird> also psygnisfive
19:41:42 <oklopol> that was what the conversation was about
19:41:43 <ehird> ##linguistics exists
19:41:44 <ehird> :-p
19:41:53 <oklopol> *is what
19:41:58 <oerjan> i am thinking of burning this channel down
19:42:06 <psygnisfive> also ehird: notice i dont care
19:42:13 <psygnisfive> im talking about the esoteric properties of a language.
19:42:18 <psygnisfive> hence its appropriate for #esoteric.
19:42:22 <psygnisfive> OH NOW WHAT
19:42:30 <psygnisfive> anyway, yeah, oklopol
19:42:33 <ehird> #esoteric is officially a channel about programming languages, not esoterica in general
19:42:36 <ehird> OH NOW WHAT
19:42:39 <oerjan> and it is not the first natlang discussion here today, either
19:42:43 <psygnisfive> OTHERS HAVE DISAGREED WITH YOU.
19:42:53 <psygnisfive> oklopol: lets design a language with movement and weird scope stuff. :D
19:43:02 <ehird> psygnisfive: ChanServ agrees with me.
19:43:04 -!- ehird has left (?).
19:43:04 -!- ehird has joined.
19:43:08 <oklopol> conteric!
19:43:11 <ehird> 'Welcome to the esoteric programming channel!'
19:43:30 <oerjan> this is where you are programmed to become esoteric
19:43:36 <psygnisfive> english is a language for programming other peoples minds to think what you want them to think
19:43:54 <oerjan> IS NOT
19:43:55 <ehird> psygnisfive: psygnisfive sucks
19:44:00 <ehird> HAHAHAA
19:44:01 <ehird> TAKE THAT
19:44:06 <ehird> psygnisfive: psygnisfive wants to commit suicide right now
19:44:10 <psygnisfive> and swallow.
19:44:26 * oerjan whacks ehird with a pizza platter ---\____
19:44:29 <psygnisfive> but not you, since you're a horrible human being.
19:44:34 * ehird eats pizza platter
19:44:42 <psygnisfive> oklopol and slereah on the other hand..
19:44:47 <psygnisfive> oklopol!
19:44:50 <psygnisfive> lets design this language
19:44:52 <psygnisfive> :T
19:44:55 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host).
19:44:56 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
19:45:04 <oklopol> if "little death" is an orgasm, then i guess "small suicide" would be like masturbation
19:45:07 <psygnisfive> it can have that weird quantification stuff i was on about a few months ago too
19:45:12 <oerjan> oklopol: deep
19:45:16 <psygnisfive> hahahahahahahahaha
19:46:06 <psygnisfive> not a perfect parallel but still :D
19:47:10 <oklopol> well i guess i should've made a pun, but that was a bit too far-fetched for me to be able to think of a way, without explicitly explaining the reference.
19:47:32 <psygnisfive> well, its just a non-analogy when an actual analogy would've been better
19:47:46 <psygnisfive> death : suicide !:: orgasm : masturbation
19:47:49 <psygnisfive> but still
19:47:51 <psygnisfive> it was funny
19:47:54 <psygnisfive> so shut up
19:48:01 <oklopol> :P
19:48:09 <oklopol> yes, i guess it's not a perfect parallel
19:48:22 <oerjan> is !:: a technical symbol?
19:48:22 <psygnisfive> btw guys
19:48:25 <oklopol> but "self-induced orgasm" sounds a bit booky
19:48:25 <psygnisfive> i just want to say
19:48:26 <psygnisfive> i love you
19:48:34 <oklopol> ...booky?
19:48:39 <psygnisfive> because i can make shut up like !:: and you understand what i mean
19:48:41 <oklopol> what the fuck.
19:48:43 <psygnisfive> oerjan: no its not but still :D
19:48:56 <psygnisfive> you understood it, did you not?
19:49:16 <oerjan> oklopol: bookish perhaps?
19:49:51 <oerjan> psygnisfive: no if you don't use the proper obscure technical terms how can it possibly be understandable?
19:49:56 <oklopol> oerjan: yes, that's what i meant, it's just i really tried to write "ish".
19:50:06 <psygnisfive> :P
19:50:22 <psygnisfive> noone else would understand the adhoc invention or extention or symbols like that
19:50:25 <psygnisfive> except programs
19:50:31 <psygnisfive> and ESPECIALLY except esopeople
19:50:32 <psygnisfive> <3
19:50:46 <oerjan> <4
19:50:52 <oklopol> i invent symbols all the time when explaining stuff to ppl
19:51:12 <oklopol> the problem is, as you just said, that this is really the only place where i don't need to explain the symbols
19:51:20 <oerjan> oklopol: what about when you're talking aloud?
19:51:41 <psygnisfive> he doesn't talk aloud.
19:51:56 <oerjan> oh that's right, he's finnish
19:52:00 <oerjan> they are always silent
19:52:07 <oklopol> :)
19:52:17 <psygnisfive> see?
19:52:21 <psygnisfive> even now he tries not to talk
19:52:27 <oklopol> !
19:52:36 <oerjan>
19:52:49 <oklopol> money!
19:52:54 <oklopol> munny munny munny
19:52:56 <oklopol> i want munnies
19:52:57 <AnMaster> hm
19:53:03 <oklopol> hi AnMaster, join the fun.
19:53:07 * oerjan wonders what that char showed up as
19:53:10 <psygnisfive> AnMster, hey
19:53:10 <AnMaster> anything interesting being discussed?
19:53:14 <psygnisfive> oerjan:
19:53:16 <psygnisfive> ? in a diamond
19:53:17 <psygnisfive> like..
19:53:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, what char?
19:53:19 <psygnisfive> <?>
19:53:24 <AnMaster> <oerjan> € <-- that?
19:53:27 <AnMaster> Euro
19:53:35 <psygnisfive> anmaster's i can see, interestingly
19:53:36 <oerjan> that explains the "money!"
19:53:38 <psygnisfive> i wonder why
19:53:57 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:53:57 <oerjan> i see EUR, spelled out
19:53:58 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, my client always sends as utf8, but it does auto detection on incoming data
19:53:58 <psygnisfive> oh btw oklopol
19:54:00 <psygnisfive> i love you.
19:54:04 <AnMaster> so the copy-paste would have translated
19:54:07 <AnMaster> to utf8
19:54:11 <oklopol> ais523: if you recall the muture thing, i still have problems translating programs to a search that can work with partial solutions, which doesn't rule any search techniques out, but does make things harder
19:54:15 <oklopol> well
19:54:17 <AnMaster> however I recommend oerjan change to utf8 encoding too
19:54:26 <oklopol> i guess you lack context to understand what i'm talking about
19:54:29 <AnMaster> instead of whatever legacy encoding he use
19:54:52 <oklopol> psygnisfive: that's kinda cool
19:54:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, ?
19:55:09 <oerjan> AnMaster: i tried earlier and failed
19:55:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, it is easy in for example xchat
19:55:23 <oklopol> ¤
19:55:25 <AnMaster> just /charset UTF-8
19:55:26 <AnMaster> there
19:55:29 <CO2Games> Ok anyone here willing to write me a program that uses all of the language's functions and outputs something to test whether the functions worked as intended?
19:55:38 <AnMaster> oklopol, generic currency?
19:55:46 <AnMaster> CO2Games, depends on what language it is?
19:55:46 <psygnisfive> generic currency indeed
19:55:52 <oerjan> apparently irssi does _some_ autodetection
19:55:57 <CO2Games> it's a kind of assembly language
19:56:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, well send in utf8 still
19:56:05 <AnMaster> CO2Games, no thanks
19:56:12 <CO2Games> http://co2games.com/wiki/index.php?title=N2CPU#Instruction_Set
19:56:15 <AnMaster> CO2Games, do it yourself :)
19:56:22 <CO2Games> mmm
19:56:24 <oklopol> assemblyyyyyyy
19:56:31 <oklopol> assembly is nice
19:56:34 <oklopol> and fuzzy
19:56:47 <CO2Games> the syntax on this one is different
19:56:48 <AnMaster> I want purely functional asm
19:56:58 <oklopol> that would be fun
19:57:02 <CO2Games> AnMaster: that's what assembly is
19:57:07 <AnMaster> CO2Games, no...
19:57:07 <CO2Games> well, x86 assembly
19:57:11 <oklopol> what? :P
19:57:17 <AnMaster> you got no idea what "pure functional" is?
19:57:22 <CO2Games> err
19:57:29 <CO2Games> idk?
19:57:37 <AnMaster> well don't claim that x86 asm is that then
19:57:39 <AnMaster> :P
19:57:43 <CO2Games> what is it then
19:57:45 <oklopol> single-assignment registers! :D
19:57:52 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
19:58:02 <CO2Games> My assembly language instruction set doesn't have any ram
19:58:06 <AnMaster> first class functions, single assignment,
19:58:08 <AnMaster> for example
19:58:16 <oklopol> hmm
19:58:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, also I admit that idea needs to be worked on
19:58:24 <AnMaster> since it could cause issues
19:58:47 <oklopol> well, it might work if you allowed one to bind and unbind them on procedure bound
19:58:54 <CO2Games> 16 8-bit registers and two jump flags
19:58:58 <AnMaster> oklopol, consider that you can compile java to bytecode, and that bytecode you could decompile to some asm... So... hm
19:59:04 <oklopol> and have dataflow variables, so you could return values from functions
19:59:09 <AnMaster> if one can make OO asm
19:59:16 <AnMaster> which both .NET and Java have
19:59:20 <AnMaster> why not some functional one
19:59:30 <AnMaster> not very low level asm I agree
19:59:38 <CO2Games> And there's an additional 8-bit output register
19:59:45 <oklopol> i want single-assignment registers
19:59:47 <AnMaster> oklopol, how would you define "asm" code? I mean formally
19:59:49 <oerjan> ok is this utf8: æ, ø, å?
19:59:49 <AnMaster> what makes it asm
19:59:50 <oklopol> that's like the coolest idea ever
19:59:55 <CO2Games> the emulator is fully CLI
19:59:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, ?
19:59:59 <oklopol> AnMaster: the fact it seems asmy to me
20:00:00 <oklopol> that's all
20:00:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, not that it is a very simple translation to the machine's own format?
20:00:21 <CO2Games> assembly means each command is a single processor instruction
20:00:26 <oklopol> well, no nesting, and integers the only store
20:00:38 <AnMaster> oklopol, because with that definition you could argue LISP *is* asm. Just fire up a LISP machine!
20:00:54 <psygnisfive> turning leaves are so very pretty
20:00:55 <oklopol> what definition?
20:00:59 <oklopol> psygnisfive: yes
20:01:04 <oklopol> lisp has nesting.
20:01:08 <Slereah_> Isn't anything ASM for some machine? :o
20:01:11 <psygnisfive> turing leaves are pretty too
20:01:14 <oklopol> lisp has data types other than int
20:01:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, an asm language is a language that is basically a 1-to-1 mapping to machine code
20:01:29 <CO2Games> oklopol: each assembly command has a single instruction
20:01:35 <AnMaster> then lisp would qualify on lisp-machines!
20:01:40 <oklopol> CO2Games: what does that mean?
20:01:48 <oklopol> how can a command have an instruction
20:01:52 <CO2Games> it's just text names for binary commands
20:02:01 <oklopol> AnMaster: i haven't said that's a definition for being an asm
20:02:05 <oklopol> my definition
20:02:06 <CO2Games> aliases, the assembler just takes that and de-aliases them
20:02:07 <oklopol> i mean
20:02:12 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh well
20:02:24 <oklopol> CO2Games: my definition is more general than *that*
20:02:29 <CO2Games> ouch
20:02:30 <oklopol> well
20:02:46 <oklopol> really quite different, i'm going by what the language feels like, not what it's used for
20:02:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: ok i think i found the right option
20:02:47 <CO2Games> you need to learn about what an assembly language is
20:02:52 <oklopol> which i always do
20:02:56 <oklopol> i don't give a shit about usage
20:02:59 <psygnisfive> these leaves smell like lea
20:03:00 <psygnisfive> f
20:03:01 <psygnisfive> :o
20:03:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, well I can't check since my client auto detect on lines
20:03:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, ask psygnisfive
20:03:11 <oklopol> CO2Games: i've programmed ten times more asm than you :P
20:03:24 <oklopol> (for some values of true.)
20:03:25 <CO2Games> But have you made an assembly instruction set
20:03:28 <oklopol> many
20:03:44 <CO2Games> have you intended to make your own hardware to run them?
20:03:53 <AnMaster> so asm is basically stuff like <instr> <arg>, <arg> and instr should be a TLA if possible?
20:04:03 <psygnisfive> has anyone ever tried to design a Lisp processor that doesn't use registers and so on but processes sort of exactly like lisp does?
20:04:07 <AnMaster> oklopol, like mov, add, sub
20:04:10 <oklopol> CO2Games: no. except once in wireworld, but turned out that'd been done
20:04:11 <CO2Games> In assembly each command is a single cpu instruction
20:04:18 <CO2Games> fail
20:04:29 <CO2Games> I intend to make hardware for my design
20:04:33 <CO2Games> I've already made an emulator
20:04:35 <Slereah_> So how does a Lisp machine works exactly?
20:04:38 <oklopol> CO2Games: fail?
20:05:00 <psygnisfive> slereah_: the way im familiar with, lisp machines work similar to non-lisp machines
20:05:03 <CO2Games> You haven't intended to make hardware matching your assembly languages, that natively runs the output
20:05:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, would you consider it asm if "mov %eax, %edx" was *written as*: "Move register eax to register edx"? or "(move eax edx)"
20:05:08 <psygnisfive> in that there are registers, and so forth
20:05:13 <AnMaster> oklopol, I mean it wouldn't look like asm
20:05:17 <psygnisfive> and that stuff gets pushed onto a stack, etc.
20:05:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, but in effect it would only be a trivial text transformation
20:05:27 <oklopol> CO2Games: indeed i haven't, i fail to see anything interesting in that
20:05:27 <Slereah_> I think there was a rough description in the original Lisp article
20:05:32 <CO2Games> EWW AT&T syntax, yucky
20:05:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, since nesting wouldn't work
20:05:43 <AnMaster> CO2Games, better than intel syntax at least
20:05:50 <psygnisfive> i just wonder if there are any machines that actually implement lisp directly, not through registers and so on
20:05:51 <psygnisfive> i mean
20:05:52 <CO2Games> pfft
20:05:53 <CO2Games> no way
20:06:02 <psygnisfive> register machines are like implementations of Assembly
20:06:05 <CO2Games> intel syntax kicks at&t ass
20:06:06 <Slereah_> psygnisfive : Does a man qualify as a machine?
20:06:07 <AnMaster> CO2Games, I consider all x86 asm ugly
20:06:09 <AnMaster> RISC please
20:06:15 <psygnisfive> the machine IS the instruction set and vice versa, to an extent
20:06:16 <AnMaster> CISC is just horrible to code in
20:06:19 <oklopol> x86 is the ugliest thing mankind has ever devised.
20:06:24 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
20:06:26 <CO2Games> x86 is easy
20:06:29 <oklopol> it should be destroyed and fed to pigs
20:06:32 <psygnisfive> oklopol, lets design a CPU
20:06:32 <AnMaster> oklopol, indeed
20:06:34 <psygnisfive> :D
20:06:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, x86_64 is even worse
20:06:39 <psygnisfive> a sexy CPY
20:06:39 <oklopol> yes, it's easy, but it's the ugliest thing mankind has ever devised.
20:06:42 <AnMaster> I suggest PPC or SPARC
20:06:42 <psygnisfive> CPU*
20:06:44 <oklopol> it should be killed and fed to pigs
20:06:48 <CO2Games> x86 supports nested loops
20:06:50 <AnMaster> both seem sane compared to x86
20:06:52 <ehird> for all topic in topics: psygnisfive.say('oklopol: lets design ' + topic)
20:06:52 <AnMaster> really
20:06:55 <oklopol> CO2Games: does it?
20:06:57 <CO2Games> yes
20:07:03 <oklopol> what do you mean
20:07:10 <CO2Games> a:
20:07:13 <CO2Games> ;something
20:07:15 <CO2Games> b:
20:07:17 <CO2Games> ;something
20:07:19 <oklopol> 8|
20:07:21 <CO2Games> loop b
20:07:21 <oklopol> god you're a noob
20:07:23 <CO2Games> ;something
20:07:24 <ehird> CO2Games: ...
20:07:25 <CO2Games> loop a
20:07:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, I agree
20:07:29 <ehird> lol CO2Games
20:07:30 <Slereah_> optbot, say something
20:07:30 <optbot> Slereah_: take some, bitch
20:07:35 <Slereah_> D:
20:07:39 <Slereah_> I AM OUTRAGED
20:07:40 <psygnisfive> infact, lets design an instruction set that can be compiled down to some turing machine cpu relatively trivially
20:07:50 <oklopol> noob trigger activated, time to go read my book
20:08:02 <CO2Games> If you guys are using assembler-specific loop structures, you're doing it wrong
20:08:06 <AnMaster> anyway
20:08:10 <psygnisfive> and also the turing machine. :P
20:08:15 <AnMaster> I want purely functional ASM!
20:08:17 <AnMaster> really
20:08:23 <AnMaster> I would like to see what it looked like
20:08:24 <psygnisfive> Lisp ASM?
20:08:32 <psygnisfive> i agree anmaster. it would be interesting.
20:08:34 <AnMaster> single assignment
20:08:35 <psygnisfive> let us begin work!
20:08:44 <CO2Games> AnMaster: what do you mean purely functional
20:08:46 <oklopol> CO2Games: what do you mean? not that i'm not already cone
20:08:47 <oklopol> *gone
20:08:52 <ehird> psygnisfive: um
20:08:52 <AnMaster> and higher order functions
20:08:54 <ehird> psygnisfive: lisp machine
20:08:54 <ehird> :|
20:08:58 <Slereah_> oklopol is a cone
20:09:06 <CO2Games> yes, yes he is
20:09:06 <psygnisfive> lisp machines are not functional ASM CPUs tho, ehird
20:09:07 <AnMaster> ehird, yes... but by oklopol's definition of asm
20:09:09 <psygnisfive> havent you been listening?
20:09:15 <ehird> yes
20:09:16 <ehird> yes i have
20:09:18 <psygnisfive> well
20:09:19 <AnMaster> ehird, I suggested it above
20:09:20 <AnMaster> and
20:09:20 <psygnisfive> they sort of are
20:09:25 <ehird> no
20:09:26 <ehird> they are
20:09:27 <AnMaster> oklopol disagreed
20:09:32 <psygnisfive> but they're really just register machines with built in lisp interpreters
20:09:36 <ehird> no
20:09:37 <ehird> no they
20:09:38 <ehird> 're not
20:09:41 <psygnisfive> yes
20:09:42 <psygnisfive> they
20:09:42 <psygnisfive> are
20:09:42 <oklopol> AnMaster: it's just what i meant by asm in that context.
20:09:45 <ehird> fi you knew anything about them you wouldn't say that
20:09:50 <psygnisfive> actually
20:09:53 <psygnisfive> since ive seen their designs
20:09:57 <CO2Games> AnMaster: seriously, what do you mean purely functional
20:09:58 <psygnisfive> i think i can say that fairly confidently
20:10:12 <AnMaster> ehird, and they were not single assignment. I want single assignment registers!
20:10:13 <psygnisfive> atleast one of them, anyway. and from what i know most others are similar.
20:10:16 <oklopol> CO2Games: purely functional means blocks give the same output for the same input
20:10:18 <AnMaster> single assignment memory
20:10:31 <AnMaster> CO2Games, the normal definition that everyone else use
20:10:36 <AnMaster> you could google
20:10:39 <psygnisfive> single assignment is for putzes.
20:10:49 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, huh?
20:11:01 <AnMaster> single assignment rocks
20:11:08 <psygnisfive> single assignment isnt really a huge benefit
20:11:13 <oklopol> i'm all about dataflow variables atm
20:11:14 <AnMaster> and I want higher order opcodes!
20:11:14 <AnMaster> :D
20:11:21 <AnMaster> err
20:11:22 <psygnisfive> higher order opcodes huh
20:11:24 <AnMaster> first-class opcodes
20:11:25 <AnMaster> rather
20:11:26 <AnMaster> :)
20:11:27 <oklopol> with them, single assignment simply become damn elegant
20:11:34 <oklopol> *becomes
20:11:39 <psygnisfive> opcodes that take opcodes as arguments and return opcodes as values?
20:11:43 <oklopol> :D
20:11:47 <oklopol> holy shit that's pretty
20:12:03 <AnMaster> first-class opcodes, single assignment registers. higher order... err stuff
20:12:13 <AnMaster> not sure you can have higher order *functions* in asm
20:12:16 <psygnisfive> now we're really just talking about building hardware that runs Lisp/Haskell
20:12:25 <oklopol> AnMaster: well you can't easily have closures
20:12:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm call/cc need to be supported too
20:12:45 <AnMaster> or something like ti
20:12:46 <AnMaster> it*
20:12:47 <oklopol> but you can have higher-order functions in anything that allows pointers really
20:12:48 <AnMaster> maybe
20:12:49 <AnMaster> anyway
20:12:55 <AnMaster> first class opcodes
20:12:55 <oklopol> i mean unrestricted pointers
20:12:58 <AnMaster> that would rock
20:13:06 <oklopol> well that's not exactly true, but you know what i mean.
20:13:12 <oklopol> well that may not be true either.
20:13:18 <oklopol> i don't know anything
20:13:20 <AnMaster> oh we need gc too
20:13:23 <AnMaster> at asm level
20:13:28 <oklopol> AnMaster: do you know what call/cc is?
20:13:40 <oklopol> if so, damn, dude, stop becoming functional
20:13:44 <oklopol> it's scary.
20:13:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, I know it, and I understand it *partly*, but it makes my head spin
20:14:09 <oklopol> well it needs some time to sink in before you see how to actually use it
20:14:17 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes. like lisp macros
20:14:20 <AnMaster> they are as bad
20:14:23 <AnMaster> kind of
20:14:47 <oklopol> i don't think they are that hard to see the use of
20:14:55 <AnMaster> I mean scheme without macros and call/cc is easy to understand really... Add either of those and it gets confusing
20:15:16 <oklopol> those are the tricky parts i guess
20:15:27 <oklopol> but hey, people, i'm really gonna go
20:15:34 <oklopol> well, unless CO2Games wants to answer
20:15:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, anyway I suspect we need garbage collector for the asm or something
20:15:39 <CO2Games> what?
20:15:47 <CO2Games> answer what
20:15:52 <oklopol> 22:07:51 CO2Games: If you guys are using assembler-specific loop structures, you're doing it wrong
20:15:55 <oklopol> what do you mean
20:16:07 <CO2Games> masm has it's own loop structure
20:16:21 <oklopol> like, one that understands nested blocks
20:16:21 <AnMaster> you are thinking way too low level
20:16:22 <oklopol> ?
20:16:25 <CO2Games> if you use it, or its if structures, you're doing it wrong
20:16:29 <AnMaster> most of us in here thinks high level
20:16:35 <CO2Games> Apparently
20:16:37 * AnMaster pokes ehird
20:16:41 <ehird> what
20:16:50 <ehird> <AnMaster> most of us in here thinks high level
20:16:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I claimed someone else was thinking too low-level
20:16:53 <ehird> excluding AnMaster ...
20:16:53 <oklopol> CO2Games: do you mean loopthisblock { }
20:16:55 <AnMaster> just above
20:16:59 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't you see it?
20:17:01 <ehird> :-)
20:17:11 <ehird> actually
20:17:14 <ehird> CO2Games was thinking too high level.
20:17:17 <CO2Games> I'm pretty sure it used something like .IF EAX or something
20:17:28 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you mean?
20:17:34 <oklopol> CO2Games: what the fuck does a loop structure mean
20:17:35 <AnMaster> ehird, oh it wrapped around?
20:17:41 <oklopol> a branch instruction?
20:17:48 <CO2Games> no
20:17:48 <oklopol> or that you can wrap code in a block
20:17:49 <AnMaster> oklopol, f() -> f().
20:17:50 <AnMaster> maybe
20:17:56 <AnMaster> ;)
20:18:04 <AnMaster> and actually
20:18:08 <AnMaster> then functional asm exists
20:18:10 <AnMaster> kind of
20:18:14 <CO2Games> I mean masm and some others have support for preprocessing a while loop on a register
20:18:19 <AnMaster> oklopol, want to hear the details?
20:18:25 <oklopol> CO2Games: and that's fail to use because...?
20:18:30 <ais523> CO2Games: gcc-bf has an asm command for a while loop on a register
20:18:36 <CO2Games> because that's not low-level enough
20:18:58 <AnMaster> oklopol, erlang compiles the code to byte code, functional byte code... However you can make it dump that as erlang asm
20:18:59 <Slereah_> http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/recursive/node4.html
20:19:00 <AnMaster> for debugging
20:19:01 <oklopol> CO2Games: it's simpler to code with, and gives the same results
20:19:04 <Slereah_> Would this be useful?
20:19:04 <AnMaster> oklopol, it is scarry
20:19:09 <AnMaster> and it looks like nothing else
20:19:25 <oklopol> CO2Games: you mean you shouldn't do it because you shouldn't take the easy way out?
20:19:26 <CO2Games> Using low level languages like asm is used for more control over what the program is doing
20:19:46 <CO2Games> using assembler-specific things just ruins the fun
20:20:05 <oklopol> CO2Games: well anyway, no, i've never used a loop structure like that, no fun progging in an esolang if you use a wimpmode
20:20:07 <AnMaster> {function, module_info, 1, 36}.
20:20:07 <AnMaster> {label,35}.
20:20:07 <AnMaster> {func_info,{atom,intercal},{atom,module_info},1}.
20:20:07 <AnMaster> {label,36}.
20:20:07 <AnMaster> {move,{x,0},{x,1}}.
20:20:08 <AnMaster> {move,{atom,intercal},{x,0}}.
20:20:10 <AnMaster> {call_ext_only,2,{extfunc,erlang,get_module_info,2}}.
20:20:12 <AnMaster> oklopol, like that ^
20:20:22 <AnMaster> that was an auto generated function
20:20:29 <AnMaster> that contains module meta data
20:20:29 <oklopol> CO2Games: yeah, okay, if you mean it ruins the fun, then i agree 100%
20:20:44 <CO2Games> it's like an esoteric language but they pay people to use it
20:20:49 <CO2Games> don't spoil it
20:20:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, what do you think?
20:20:59 <ais523> <CO2Games> it's like an esoteric language but they pay people to use it
20:21:01 <ais523> what language?
20:21:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, call_only is tail recursion
20:21:05 <oklopol> asm
20:21:07 <CO2Games> x86 assembly
20:21:21 <oklopol> AnMaster: also called a "jump" :P
20:21:26 <CO2Games> it's the big hit in the drivers and hardware control industry
20:21:28 <AnMaster> oklopol, yep
20:21:44 <CO2Games> your sata drivers are probably written in raw assembly
20:21:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, actually it was a generic tail call
20:21:50 <CO2Games> assuming you have any install
20:21:52 <CO2Games> ed
20:22:01 <AnMaster> CO2Games, hardly
20:22:08 <AnMaster> they are coded in C mostly
20:22:11 <CO2Games> wow
20:22:13 <CO2Games> they fail bad
20:22:16 <AnMaster> no
20:22:20 * oklopol goes ->
20:22:29 <CO2Games> that's like writing a kernel in C, you should've used asm
20:22:31 <AnMaster> CO2Games, they are coded in C mostly everywhere
20:22:36 <AnMaster> and kernels are coded in C
20:22:39 <CO2Games> then they fail
20:22:40 <AnMaster> with tiny bits of asm
20:22:48 <CO2Games> see, that's their problem
20:22:54 <AnMaster> oh god.. you are a troll really?
20:22:58 <CO2Games> nobody wants to work with low level
20:23:10 <oklopol> well, i agree with CO2Games, and i'm not a troll
20:23:19 <AnMaster> oklopol, about what?
20:23:21 <ais523> CO2Games: there are lower levels than asm
20:23:31 <ais523> even asm is still interpreted by a physical object
20:23:35 <CO2Games> yes
20:23:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, http://rafb.net/p/k0Bx1911.html <-- this may interest you
20:23:38 <ais523> my University project is about compilation into hardware
20:23:41 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you too ^
20:23:42 <CO2Games> I'm talking software
20:23:46 <AnMaster> and ais523 ^
20:23:49 <ais523> where the only interpretation, if any, is done by the laws of physics
20:23:55 <oklopol> AnMaster: that even things that absolutely need to be correct should be coded in a language that makes enforcing correctness as hard as possible
20:24:02 <oklopol> but, i guess i'm a bit of a troll by nature
20:24:13 <ais523> it makes the hardware/software line blurry if you're compiling directly into hardware from a C-like language...
20:24:15 <CO2Games> eww yucky get it away
20:24:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, haha
20:24:32 <oklopol> ais523: are you making a hdl? :O
20:24:46 <ais523> oklopol: no
20:24:47 <ais523> better
20:24:54 <oklopol> ..better? 8|
20:24:56 <ais523> I'm compiling into an hdl from a C-like language
20:24:56 <AnMaster> CO2Games, compiling into hardware is fun :)
20:24:57 <CO2Games> I'm thinking of making my own computer system thingy
20:25:00 <ais523> which is imperative but lazy
20:25:08 <oklopol> ais523: oh my god
20:25:09 <CO2Games> and expensive if it's one of those hardcore chips
20:25:21 <oklopol> ais523: verilog is pretty much c...
20:25:27 <ais523> oklopol: don't believe it
20:25:32 <oklopol> i've seen itt
20:25:33 <oklopol> *it
20:25:35 <ais523> it looks like C but the paradigm is totally different
20:25:38 <oklopol> hmm
20:25:40 <oklopol> true.
20:25:41 <ais523> in C the commands generally have some sort of order...
20:25:45 <oklopol> heh
20:25:49 <ais523> anyone can make a programming language look like C
20:25:52 <oklopol> yeah okay, it's totally different
20:25:53 <ais523> that doesn't mean it is C
20:26:02 <CO2Games> See: Jugs
20:26:07 <CO2Games> looks like c
20:26:10 <CO2Games> it isn't c
20:26:23 <AnMaster> ais523, a functional language should work well for that, since you could potentially easily figure out what you can evaluate in parallel
20:26:29 <AnMaster> better than imperative
20:26:49 <ais523> AnMaster: we're compiling via a functional language
20:26:50 <oklopol> ais523: well that sounds incredibly cool, i'd love to help, even, were i of any use.
20:26:51 <ais523> except it isn't
20:27:02 <AnMaster> ais523, so something with single assignment, no side effects should be best
20:27:02 <ais523> it's sort of a limited functional language
20:27:07 <ais523> where you aren't allowed to do recursion
20:27:13 <ais523> and no, single assignment doesn't help
20:27:15 <oklopol> just read a book about processor design, and i kinda wanna play with that
20:27:27 <AnMaster> ais523, is it tc without recursion?
20:27:32 <CO2Games> my machine's emulator is 1781 lines long before preprocessing
20:27:40 <ais523> AnMaster: no, no real piece of hardware can be TC
20:27:51 <ais523> the language therefore has to deliberately be sub-TC, if you think about it
20:27:53 <oklopol> ais523: asmtc
20:27:58 <AnMaster> ais523, true but you could run loops on them
20:28:11 <oklopol> asmtcness is a concept designed for this exact purpose
20:28:11 <ais523> it allows tail-recursion in the intermediate lang
20:28:18 <ais523> which is compiled from loops in the source lang
20:28:25 <oerjan> ais523: the compiling step could still be TC
20:28:31 <CO2Games> 10101 instructions
20:28:32 <oklopol> FUCK
20:28:32 <AnMaster> ais523, bounded storage yes. Preventing loops: not needed
20:28:33 <oklopol> ->
20:28:39 <AnMaster> as far as I can see
20:28:42 <ais523> AnMaster: loops are allowed, so are nested loops
20:28:47 <ais523> but non-tail recursion isn't
20:28:52 <AnMaster> ais523, ah
20:28:55 <ais523> you can convert all imperative-style loops into tail recursin
20:28:57 <ais523> *recurison
20:29:01 <ais523> *recursion
20:29:11 <AnMaster> ais523, yes if nothing else you can do it as continuation passing
20:29:14 <AnMaster> iirc
20:29:22 <AnMaster> probably there are better ways
20:29:25 <CO2Games> 10101 instructions in binary that is
20:29:28 <ais523> AnMaster: continuation passing in hardware?
20:29:31 <ais523> are you serious?
20:29:35 <AnMaster> ais523, no....
20:29:36 <ais523> remember you don't have pointers...
20:29:41 <AnMaster> ais523, oh ok
20:29:46 <AnMaster> ais523, so how then?
20:29:55 <ais523> so how what, loops?
20:30:03 <CO2Games> no it's while, not what
20:30:05 <ais523> you just get a function to call itself at the end
20:30:09 <ais523> to loop, if the loop hasn't ended
20:30:13 <ais523> pretty trivial really
20:30:32 <AnMaster> ais523, a language can be tc without recursion but with while-style loops. Just look at for example brainfuck
20:30:42 <ais523> yes, I know
20:30:47 <ais523> but there's a limited amount of memory
20:30:48 <CO2Games> So anyways guess what
20:30:55 <ais523> the TC problems aren't due to the control structures
20:31:07 <CO2Games> My machine is not turing complete on its own
20:31:10 <AnMaster> ais523, recursion without imperative-style loops is tc.
20:31:12 <ais523> recursion does create an infinite amount of memory, if you have either local variables or arguments
20:31:20 <AnMaster> ais523, so is just tail-recursion
20:31:20 <CO2Games> unless you force the user to write down a tape of bits
20:31:21 <AnMaster> but
20:31:27 <Slereah_> What about that SMITH language? :o
20:31:32 <AnMaster> how without continuations
20:31:33 <AnMaster> ?
20:31:37 <AnMaster> that is my question
20:31:38 <Slereah_> That just rewrites itself at the end
20:31:43 <ais523> AnMaster: how what?
20:31:50 <ais523> I don't get what you're getting at...#
20:31:56 <ais523> s/#//
20:31:59 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you transform any loop into a tail recursive call
20:32:15 <AnMaster> ais523, if you can't use continuations
20:32:31 <ais523> a; while(c) b; d; becomes a; f(); d; sub f() {b; if(c) f();}
20:32:38 <ais523> pretty simple really...
20:33:38 <AnMaster> ais523, hm since body recursion got the same "tc-ness" as that style of loops... Is it that easy to transform any recursion into tail recursion?
20:34:09 <ais523> no, it fails if you have to maintain state and retrieve it later
20:34:22 <AnMaster> ais523, for example the traditional non-tail (body for short in this context) recursive fibonacci.
20:34:23 <CO2Games> Ok I've come to a conclusion
20:34:24 <ais523> or if you need to know the recursion height
20:34:32 <CO2Games> The machine cannot store data.
20:34:38 <AnMaster> ais523, you can transform it to normal loops though
20:34:39 <CO2Games> well, enough data
20:34:43 <ais523> here's some C code:
20:34:44 <AnMaster> or bf wouldn't be tc
20:34:47 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
20:34:47 <CO2Games> there's only 16 registers
20:34:58 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, you have to maintain a stack by hand
20:35:02 <CO2Games> It'd need a tape device
20:35:02 <ais523> to do that transformation
20:35:04 <ais523> in some cases
20:35:17 <AnMaster> ais523, right. (Though there are ways around for fib iirc)
20:35:35 <AnMaster> ais523, but stack needs pointer doesn't it? And you didn't have pointers you said
20:36:08 <ais523> void f(void) {if(getchar()!='a') {if(getchar()=='!') return; abort();} f(); if(getchar()!='b') abort();}
20:36:16 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that's why my program isn't TC
20:36:24 <ais523> although it has loops, there are some things you can't compile into it
20:36:35 <ais523> due to the lack of having infinite storage
20:36:47 <ais523> look at my one-liner C program above, and assume you've included the header files and call f from main
20:36:48 <AnMaster> ais523, a fib for 32-bit integers :)
20:36:53 <CO2Games> You can use a register to be a stack pointer
20:37:18 <AnMaster> yes there are various other ways to make fib tail recursive
20:37:18 <fizzie> It's nit-picking time! ais523's tail-recursion example implements "a; do { b; } while(c); d;" and not "a; while(c) b; d;" as advertised.
20:37:19 <AnMaster> I know that
20:37:29 <ais523> fizzie: whoops, I need an extra if
20:37:40 <ais523> it doesn't really change the nature of it, though
20:37:59 <fizzie> Sure, that's why the call it picking nits. (What's the etymology of that anyway?)
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20:43:32 <AnMaster> Oct 3 13:30:21 tux [3293016.218037] readonly.exe[6652]: segfault at 4005bc ip 4004c1 sp 7fffe6b1bf80 error 7 in readonly.exe[400000+1000]
20:43:32 <AnMaster> Oct 3 20:00:06 tux [ 4886.698062] rarian-sk-get-c[9053]: segfault at 0 ip 35fae73af0 sp 7fff6d5db9b8 error 4 in libc-2.6.1.so[35fae00000+136000]
20:43:33 <AnMaster> wtf
20:43:42 * AnMaster searchs disk
20:43:44 <ais523> readonly.exe?
20:43:49 <AnMaster> ais523, what I'm wondering too
20:43:52 <ais523> that sounds very like a Windows program name...
20:43:53 <AnMaster> rootkit?
20:43:58 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and I don't have wine
20:44:14 <ais523> it seems unlikely that your computer would get rooted...
20:44:18 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed
20:45:53 <ais523> AnMaster: http://web.archive.org/web/20030521231823/http://www.essenz.com/support/comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc/Oct/29/207663.html
20:46:03 <oerjan> fizzie: nits are the eggs of lice iirc
20:46:11 <AnMaster> ais523, ah yes I upgraded ksh
20:46:17 <AnMaster> ais523, the other one then
20:46:18 <AnMaster> hm
20:46:19 <ais523> seems it only happens on FreeBSD when compiling ksh
20:46:23 <AnMaster> ais523, Gentoo
20:46:25 <AnMaster> not freebsd
20:46:28 <ais523> ok
20:46:31 <ais523> maybe the same problem though
20:46:35 <ais523> I'd guess it's a confused Makefile
20:46:41 <ais523> which tries to do Windows stuff by mistake
20:46:50 <oerjan> CO2Games: a limited amount of registers can still be TC if they are unbounded, see Minsky Machine on the wiki
20:47:25 <AnMaster> ais523, found anything on the other process?
20:47:32 <ais523> haven't searched yet
20:47:38 <AnMaster> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=234489
20:47:38 <AnMaster> hm
20:47:45 <CO2Games> the registers are 8-bit
20:47:49 <CO2Games> not infinite
20:47:49 <AnMaster> app-text/rarian
20:47:52 <AnMaster> seems I got it installed
20:47:55 <CO2Games> and there are only 16 of them
20:47:55 <AnMaster> some dep
20:48:01 <CO2Games> not infinite
20:48:14 <AnMaster> ais523, I think segfault log messages should record path info too
20:48:16 <AnMaster> just IMO
20:48:17 <CO2Games> A tape device or memory device would have to be attached
20:48:51 <oerjan> CO2Games: yeah then you need a tape device, a RAM is not technically enough since the pointer sizes would be bounded too
20:49:03 <AnMaster> ais523, if it had said something like /var/tmp/portage/app-shells/ksh-1.2.3/work/ksh-1.2.3/readonly.exe then I wouldn't have got scared like that
20:49:14 <AnMaster> or whatever the ksh version is
20:49:53 <ais523> oerjan: you could use a RAM if you had bignum pointers
20:50:06 <oerjan> ais523: he had 8-bit registers
20:50:34 <AnMaster> 16 registers?
20:50:35 <AnMaster> eww
20:50:39 <AnMaster> that few
20:50:48 <AnMaster> a real arch should have at least 64 GPR
20:50:57 <AnMaster> of reasonable size
20:51:01 <AnMaster> like 32-bit or 64-bit
20:51:04 <ehird> um
20:51:05 <AnMaster> depending on platform
20:51:07 <ehird> 64 registers?
20:51:09 <ehird> fuck. that. shit.
20:51:13 <ais523> bff-gc has 64 general-purpose 8 bit registers
20:51:15 <AnMaster> ehird, yes iirc PPC got that
20:51:17 <ais523> *bf-gcc
20:51:22 <ais523> which seems to be about the right number
20:51:24 <AnMaster> think RISC
20:51:26 <ais523> gcc generally ends up using 50 or so
20:51:27 <AnMaster> not CISC
20:51:31 <AnMaster> and you get more registers
20:51:32 <AnMaster> :)
20:51:34 <ehird> AnMaster: 16 registers is perfect
20:51:39 <AnMaster> ehird, for a CISC
20:51:42 <AnMaster> not for a RISC
20:51:45 <ehird> no
20:51:47 <ehird> for a risc
20:52:03 <AnMaster> ehird, you had this discussion with RodgerTheGreat (iirc?) before
20:52:05 <AnMaster> I agree with him
20:52:08 <AnMaster> or whoever it was
20:52:13 <AnMaster> and refer you to that convo
20:52:15 <ehird> no, i didn't
20:52:18 <AnMaster> was a few weeks/months ago
20:52:27 <ehird> also, rodgerthegreat mostly agreed with me on the topic of asm
20:52:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it was him that wanted to have more registers
20:52:46 <ehird> as he rightly critiqued your cpu architechture which had an instruction to switch 32/64 bits but not the actual vitals.
20:53:21 <AnMaster> ehird, it wasn't complete, it was a draft
20:53:45 <AnMaster> and I was thankful for that he pointed out the issue
20:53:51 <ehird> yes, but i think it's kind of fitting that it was very portable to various large-scale applications, it just didn't have anything else they'd need...
20:54:03 <ehird> like..
20:54:06 <AnMaster> ehird, however. You disliked register count
20:54:09 <ehird> program execution
20:54:18 <AnMaster> and there rodger the great agreed with me
20:54:42 <AnMaster> ehird, if you meant cpu rings, context switching and such then it wasn't intended
20:55:35 <ais523> AnMaster: it seems quite a few other people are getting those rarian-sk-get-c errors, Googling doesn't show why though
20:57:55 <AnMaster> ais523, yes
20:57:58 <AnMaster> and wtf is rarian
20:57:59 <AnMaster> really
20:58:01 <oerjan> cosmic rays, clearly
20:58:30 <AnMaster> ais523, hit number 2 at google for "rarian-sk-get-c" (http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=234489) seems relevant I guess
20:58:33 <ais523> librarian-dev - Rarian is a documentation meta-data library (
20:58:46 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and that doesn't say anything really
20:58:55 <ais523> no
20:59:04 <ais523> but at least it gives some clue as to why it was on your system
20:59:05 <AnMaster> ais523, I mean it could be doxygen metadata, but I doubt that
20:59:15 <ais523> I can certainly imagine something like that running during the compile of something
20:59:20 <ais523> that used it for documentation
20:59:35 <AnMaster> # equery depends app-text/rarian
20:59:35 <AnMaster> [ Searching for packages depending on app-text/rarian... ]
20:59:35 <AnMaster> app-text/scrollkeeper-9999-r1 (app-text/rarian)
20:59:44 <AnMaster> huh?
20:59:49 <AnMaster> 9999?
20:59:49 <ais523> what depends on scrollkeeper?
20:59:54 <ais523> quite a lot AFAIR
20:59:59 <AnMaster> [I] app-text/scrollkeeper
21:00:01 <AnMaster> Description: Dummy scrollkeeper for testing rarian
21:00:06 * AnMaster growls
21:00:46 * oerjan howls
21:00:56 <AnMaster> ais523, ah about all gnome packages that I happen to have installed because some bloody app I want depends on them instead of using something lightweight and portable such a wxwidgets
21:01:02 <ais523> AnMaster: it seems that almost all of gnome depends on rarian
21:01:13 <AnMaster> ais523, yes 5 packages
21:01:20 <ais523> well this is a Gnome system
21:01:23 <ais523> so it's a lot more packages for me
21:01:28 <AnMaster> ais523, however I haven't updated rarian recently afaik
21:01:28 <ais523> it's both Gnome and KDE, actually
21:01:34 <ais523> but I normally boot into Gnome
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21:18:33 <AnMaster> ais523, well here startx to KDE loading dialog done takes about 10 seconds
21:18:37 <AnMaster> so no big issue
21:18:38 <AnMaster> to use KDE
21:18:48 <AnMaster> ais523, also I hardly ever reboot
21:18:57 <AnMaster> today I did for reasons out of my control
21:19:05 <AnMaster> but I had over a month of uptime before that
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21:20:42 <ehird> AnMaster: ais523 is not online
21:23:13 <AnMaster> * [ais523] is away (Gone away for now.)
21:23:15 <AnMaster> correct
21:23:21 <ehird> <-psyBNC> Fri Oct 3 20:13:37 :User ais523 quitted (from 147.188.254.96)
21:23:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I assume he have away log :)
21:23:23 <ehird> Even more correct.
21:23:32 <AnMaster> has*
21:23:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Since his client isn't connected to the server, no.
21:23:44 <AnMaster> ehird, err? the bnc should have an away log
21:23:47 <AnMaster> or disconnect-log
21:23:48 <ehird> Yes.
21:23:49 <AnMaster> or whatever
21:23:49 <ehird> Yes it does.
21:23:50 <ehird> But he doesn't.
21:23:59 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean he doesn't use it?
21:24:07 <ehird> It's the server's, not his personally.
21:24:17 <AnMaster> ehird, oh same bnc for both of you?
21:24:23 <ehird> Yes.
21:24:25 <AnMaster> I find that really confusing
21:24:30 <ehird> Why?
21:24:44 <AnMaster> ehird, also security issues. And shared away log
21:24:45 <AnMaster> and such
21:24:47 <ehird> Running two instances of it would just be wasteful.
21:24:48 <AnMaster> should be per-user
21:24:50 <AnMaster> not per-server
21:24:54 <ehird> AnMaster: The latter: it is.
21:24:57 <ehird> But it is on the server.
21:25:01 <ehird> Not his machine.
21:25:12 <ehird> Anyway, as for security issues,
21:25:14 <AnMaster> ehird, of course I expect him to read it when he get back
21:25:16 <ehird> we both have root on the server.
21:25:17 <AnMaster> like an away log
21:25:25 <ehird> AnMaster: I can nitpick if I want, can't I?
21:25:36 <AnMaster> ehird, well I can't stop you :P
21:25:41 <ehird> Anyway, security issues: since we're both sudoers, we could impersonate eacho ther even with seperate instances
21:26:14 <pikhq> Holy fuck.
21:26:18 <ehird> pikhq: What.
21:26:29 <pikhq> When I was doing an emerge --sync, I think I saw some KDE 4.1 packages go by.
21:26:38 <ehird> Dun dun DUNN
21:27:00 <pikhq> I thought KDE 4 wasn't in official Portage since KDE 4 ebuilds used EAPI 2, which got approved... 2 days ago.
21:27:22 <ehird> Jeez, Gentoo.
21:27:26 <ehird> You're either 5 years out of date...
21:27:31 <ehird> or 2 seconds bleeding edge.
21:27:50 <pikhq> I'm using an overlay, so I'm 2 seconds bleeding edge. Whee.
21:28:18 * ehird looks at pikhq's outline.
21:28:21 <ehird> Yes, that is quite some blood.
21:28:28 <ehird> I think you wanna get that checked out
21:29:01 <oerjan> that's not blood, it's just ketchup
21:29:29 * ehird bites pikhq's arm off.
21:29:29 <ehird> Now it
21:29:32 <ehird> 's blood.
21:29:45 <oerjan> it's just a flesh wound.
21:33:41 <pikhq> Oooh. baselayout-2 is about to hit Gentoo stable, too.
21:41:20 <ehird> cc
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22:18:59 -!- ihope has joined.
22:19:06 <ihope> Are Unlambda programs worth turning into music?
22:19:31 <ihope> If not, I'll have to use Thue stuff instead.
22:19:34 <ehird> Yes. Yes.
22:19:36 <ehird> To both.
22:19:37 <oerjan> bop boppeti bop boop beep
22:19:39 <ehird> ihope: c-b-l
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23:01:52 <AnMaster> <pikhq> I thought KDE 4 wasn't in official Portage since KDE 4 ebuilds used EAPI 2, which got approved... 2 days ago.
23:01:53 <AnMaster> <ehird> Jeez, Gentoo.
23:01:53 <AnMaster> <ehird> You're either 5 years out of date...
23:01:53 <AnMaster> <ehird> or 2 seconds bleeding edge.
23:01:54 <AnMaster> wrong
23:02:02 <AnMaster> the ones in the tree were converted
23:02:05 <AnMaster> to not use EAPI 2
23:02:13 <AnMaster> at least they were before
23:02:13 <ehird> Ha. How typical.
23:02:19 <ehird> Gentoo patches stuff and fails to give a shit about the maintainers.
23:02:33 <ehird> Things break, people complain upstream, developers tell them to go away because Gentoo just fucks with their stuff and doesn't tell them.
23:02:35 <ehird> Everyone loses.
23:02:49 <AnMaster> ehird, err how did it break?
23:03:02 <ehird> AnMaster: I did not say this specific case.
23:03:23 <AnMaster> ehird, your comment about "typical" indicated that you considered the current case representative for what you said
23:03:27 <AnMaster> that is the common usage of it
23:03:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Can you guarantee that it won't break?
23:03:46 <ehird> No.
23:03:58 <ehird> That interpretation could be correct.
23:04:00 <ehird> But that's not the point.
23:04:23 <AnMaster> EAPI-2 is an extension to the package format, it was used in the development repo for KDE for a while. Now EAPI-2 have become standard.
23:05:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: Can you guarantee that it won't break? <-- no, doing that for anything non-trivial would solve the halting problem I think
23:05:35 <AnMaster> ehird, however iirc the EAPI-2 change is minor
23:05:37 <ehird> Nothing is BROKEN.
23:05:40 <AnMaster> so "probably won't"
23:05:45 <ehird> The computer always does what you tell it to.
23:05:52 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed
23:05:55 <ehird> Detecting such wouldnt' be halting problem,
23:05:58 <ehird> it'd just be impossible.
23:06:12 <AnMaster> ehird, "broken algorithm" however
23:06:41 <AnMaster> ehird, "does this algorithm do what it says on the box"?
23:06:48 <ehird> Impossible to detect :-P
23:06:49 <AnMaster> that would solve halting problem
23:07:20 <AnMaster> "this algorithm returns true if the Riemann hypothesis is true
23:07:29 <AnMaster> ehird, just consider something like that ;P
23:08:04 <oerjan> i smell a logical fallacy
23:08:09 <AnMaster> or "this algorithm returns true if the function passed to it will halt"
23:08:14 <ehird> oerjan: Ditto.
23:08:15 <AnMaster> may not be halting problem
23:08:23 <AnMaster> however impossible indeed
23:08:38 <oerjan> just because it's impossible for _some_ programs doesn't mean it's impossible for _every_ program
23:08:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, indeed
23:08:52 <AnMaster> you could make a trivial case
23:09:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, I was talking about the general case however
23:09:07 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
23:09:34 <oklopol> if the moon is on the sky then one plus one equals two
23:11:04 <ihope> This just in: Famous Oklopolian mathematician proves that basic arithmetic derives from celestial bodies.
23:11:12 * ihope yawns disavowingly
23:11:40 <ehird> oklopolian
23:11:41 <ehird> :D
23:11:53 <AnMaster> what about this.... hm
23:12:06 <oerjan> i think that should be oklopolitan
23:12:12 <oklopol> or perhaps oklopolar
23:12:27 <oklopol> oklopolitan would probably be the most logical one
23:12:32 <AnMaster> no doesn't work
23:12:39 <oklopol> oklopolous
23:12:39 <AnMaster> ok I admit my wording was bad
23:12:45 <oerjan> anyway it's moot as Oklopolis sunk in the ocean thousands of years ago
23:13:01 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, "does this algorithm do what it says on the box"? <ehird> Impossible to detect :-P <-- why? If it isn't the halting problem, then what is it?
23:13:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Uh, that's called "reading your mind".
23:14:03 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? Proving if a certain algorithm does what it says is mind reading?
23:14:08 <ehird> Yes.
23:14:09 <AnMaster> huh
23:14:12 <ehird> How do you codify what it says?
23:14:13 <ehird> :-P
23:14:22 <AnMaster> ehird, using some format syntax
23:14:28 <oklopol> ehird: says on the box == satisfies a declarative specification, i assume
23:14:29 <ehird> AnMaster: ... which can have bugs in it.
23:14:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes
23:14:41 <ehird> So now you have to verify the specification via another specification.
23:14:43 <oerjan> _every_ algorithm does exactly what it says. remarkable, that.
23:14:44 <ehird> Ooh, I love infinite regress.
23:14:47 <ehird> oerjan++
23:14:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, except my wording was less format ;P
23:14:57 <ihope> Oklopolitan, yes.
23:16:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm I suspect you could construct something like: "this algorithm: Don't run this algorithm", though that may just be a plain boring paradox
23:16:18 <oklopol> ehird: well yes, that's true, you cannot achieve what the original intention was.
23:16:23 <oklopol> i mean
23:16:41 <oklopol> cannot check whether the algorithm does what the creator wanted it to
23:17:19 <oklopol> "to run this algorithm: do not run this algorithm" isn't exactly a set of well-defined computational steps
23:17:28 <oklopol> well
23:17:44 <AnMaster> oklopol, well that is true
23:17:48 <oklopol> you can either think it means do not run this algorithm as in "do not recurse" == nop
23:17:51 <oklopol> but
23:18:02 <ihope> "Don't do ..." is not much of an algorithm.
23:18:08 <AnMaster> oklopol, "s/do not/do never have and never will/"
23:18:09 <AnMaster> ;P
23:18:21 <AnMaster> and true
23:18:21 <oklopol> you can also think in a logical sense, that it means "do not do such a sequence of operations that the result is the same as after running this algorithm"
23:18:23 <ihope> Well, I guess it's a nondeterministic algorithm.
23:18:24 <oklopol> which i'm sure you meant
23:18:34 <AnMaster> This statement is not a statement.
23:18:42 <ihope> The possible results of that algorithm are precisely those results that the algorithm cannot produce.
23:18:45 <oklopol> the latter is a declarative specification, a constraint, it's not an "algorithm" in the sense normally used
23:19:07 <oklopol> read what i said, it will answer all.
23:19:24 <AnMaster> oklopol, ah hm. Yes that was what I meant
23:20:20 <AnMaster> night all
23:20:28 <oklopol> night.
23:20:36 <oklopol> so, anyone wanna share some food with me?
23:21:35 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:22:05 <oerjan> hm, food
23:22:16 <ehird> oklopol: sure.
23:22:36 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
23:23:13 <oklopol> ehird: send via mail asp
23:23:17 <ihope> I'll put a bit of sugar in an envelope and mail it to you.
23:23:23 <ehird> oklopol: i didn't agree to supply the food!
23:23:24 <oklopol> that would be nice
23:23:57 <oklopol> ehird: touche
23:24:03 <ihope> You'll have to send me a SASE, though.
23:24:24 <ihope> I'll give you the address.
23:25:06 <oklopol> what's a SASE
23:25:44 <ihope> Self-addressed stamped envelope.
23:26:04 <oklopol> ah
23:26:22 <oklopol> are you in high-school?
23:26:39 <ihope> Yep.
23:26:49 <ihope> Maybe you'll have to use one of those fancy international reply coupon things.
23:27:13 <oklopol> ihope: could you send me a SASSASE
23:27:21 <oklopol> like, so i can send you the sase
23:28:22 <ihope> I won't send you anything unless you first send me a SASE to send it in.
23:28:30 <ihope> I'm cheap.
23:31:44 <ihope> Either that, or I can't afford the 42 cents for a stamp.
23:32:01 <Slereah_> 42 cents?
23:32:06 <Slereah_> That's like... 0 euros
23:35:15 <oerjan> about 30 euro cents
23:35:59 <oerjan> or 2.5 NOK
23:36:15 <Slereah_> NOK NOK
23:36:17 <oerjan> which i'm sure is far less than it would cost from norway...
23:40:11 <oerjan> 7 NOK for standard priority letter within norway
23:42:26 -!- CO2Games has quit ("And I invented doors, no joke!").
23:42:49 <oerjan> 11 NOK to outside europe. about 1.84 USD.
23:46:33 * oerjan notes that freaking out ihope with norwegian price levels doesn't seem to be working
23:46:48 <oerjan> either that, or he's in shock :D
23:49:02 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and i dont know what "other dos emulators" is.
23:55:42 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, there?
23:56:00 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, was the fedora/bowler hat grammar your idea? Or someone else?
23:56:16 <AnMaster> whoever it was: did the discussion get anywhere?
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