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06:37:04 <fizzie> immibis: You were asking about setting the Funge-98 storage offset to an arbitrary value? 0{<y><x>02-u0}$$ -- it uses 'u' to push an arbitrary address for } to pop off; the final $$ gets rid of the pos+delta vector pushed by {.
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06:50:20 <fungot> asiekierka: that part of the def-bf reference implementation, too
06:50:29 <asiekierka> fungot: No, no definitions, are you intelligent?
06:50:29 <fungot> asiekierka: that's not a good day for house, this is even trickier
06:50:42 <asiekierka> so, fungot, intelligence is tricky for you?
06:50:42 <fungot> asiekierka: of course people should prefer fnord software. they should've used gmp
06:50:59 <asiekierka> fungot, intelligence is fnord software? and gmp?
06:50:59 <fungot> asiekierka: ( ( apply xs) ( length fnord))
06:52:37 <asiekierka> hackles - les hack, hels ack!, hak lecs,
06:58:44 * asiekierka dies infinity times until i say "wakeup time"
07:11:05 <immibis> [18:51] <asiekierka> Let's clog cmeme! <!-- is that a pun
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07:17:56 <immibis> because clog and cmeme are both logging bots
07:23:59 <fungot> ab5tract: i sleep 10-12 hours a day but i can't
07:24:17 <fungot> immibis: well turt say it is possible....
07:24:25 <fungot> immibis: and how to classify rest-of-name. this
07:24:27 <fizzie> fungot: Do you dream of fungeoid sheep?
07:24:27 <fungot> fizzie: there isn't a fnord compiler i know of.
07:24:37 <immibis> fungot: Do you dream at all
07:24:38 <fungot> immibis: optimize ( case 1...
07:24:48 <fungot> immibis: ( has anyone messed with the fnord teachpack?), so it sounds like
07:24:59 <immibis> where's it getting its phrases from?
07:25:13 <fizzie> IRC logs of this channel + freenode's #scheme.
07:25:20 <fizzie> Although it doesn't quote directly.
07:25:40 <fizzie> I've tried a couple of other data sources, with various levels of success.
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07:26:12 <fizzie> Next on the TO-DO list are Wikipedia talk pages (I just extracted 1/256th of them -- around 9000 pages -- and would just need to clean the wiki-markup out of the way.)
07:28:18 <fizzie> So far there's been a Pratchett mode (a dozen or so Discworld books), a Charles Darwin mode (similar amount of his books), a Lovecraft mode (ditto), one based on a thousand transcribed ten-minute telephone conversations, and the politician mode based on European Parliament speeches.
07:29:26 <fizzie> The Europarl thing was a great success in a way, it babbled out completely content-free but certainly impressive-sounding text. Not very amusing, but...
07:29:46 <fizzie> fungot: Act like a politician, please.
07:29:46 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, that we still have three very important reports to deal with all human beings to drugs and arms trafficking.
07:30:09 <fungot> ab5tract: madam president, ladies and gentlemen, of the fact that here in parliament to certain acts and decisions that were taken by the bureau, then it poses a very urgent task, that of the structural policies and the stability pact is dead or not, will the commissioner make this announcement this evening a three-way dialogue is to define the rights of the committee of the columbian communist youth and representative of a eur
07:30:29 <fizzie> Oh, and it starts just about every sentence with "mr/madam president" since it's one complete statement/speech it's using.
07:30:40 <fizzie> Also tends to ramble for so long that the IRC line length limits cut it off.
07:30:43 <immibis> fungot: This sentence is too long because this sentence is too long so Justin killed and this sentence is too long so this sentence is too long
07:30:43 <fungot> immibis: mr president, i am the spokesman, will be allowed to be, but that parliament has now made a couple of months have passed since these proposals were adopted.
07:30:59 <immibis> the phrases don't make that much sense...
07:31:11 <ab5tract> fizzie: you should give it a terrence mckenna mode
07:31:12 <fizzie> I'm not sure the source material makes very much sense either.
07:31:29 <fizzie> All these modes are based on stuff I had readily available.
07:31:49 <fizzie> fungot: Try Lovecraft next.
07:31:49 <fungot> fizzie: facts concerning the priory. when i was inside i saw that my host was sitting there with fnord stiffness in the dark.
07:31:56 <immibis> fizzie: for wikipedia talk mode, just leave the markup in :)
07:32:01 <fizzie> The Lovecraft stuff is full of fnords.
07:32:07 <fungot> immibis: my first vivid impression of my own will at most lead only to suffocation when my air is gone."
07:32:19 <immibis> fungot: how long will that take?
07:32:19 <fungot> immibis: " you came through the devil's woods last night and alone?" the old man lapsed into a fnord chair, he commenced to eye me intently.
07:32:22 <lament> why are there fnords in lovecraft?
07:32:41 <immibis> fungot: where are the devils woods?
07:32:41 <fungot> immibis: that such regions in truth existed, seemed amply clear from many things. faint cries and groans unmistakably came up now and then my touch would reveal a doorless intersecting passage, and i believe i may rely on my judgement of men enough to have you hear the record i got. i have seen a symbol of conquest over the old gods and beings of th, and as i writhe in my guilty agony, frantic to save the city from their accurs
07:32:55 <fizzie> lament: It maps all words that occur only once to a special "unknown" token, and then expands that to "fnord" when textifying.
07:33:02 <fizzie> lament: Apparently Lovecraft was fond of rare words.
07:33:11 <ab5tract> fizzie: would add a mode if i submit a tar of terrence's writing?
07:33:29 <fungot> lament: but now that he was overcome with the vastness, profundity, and fnord.
07:33:54 <fungot> ab5tract: fnord at four dr. willett recalled and recorded his conversation of that afternoon is due to the lack of fnord fnord and fnord in the
07:34:53 <fizzie> fungot: Okay, do the telephone talk now.
07:34:53 <fungot> fizzie: yeah i call them mindless games because i don't
07:35:10 <fizzie> That... might've been a commentary on this whole babbling thing.
07:35:12 <ab5tract> fungot: you said what they said you said
07:35:16 <immibis> and its written entirely in befunge? impressive.
07:35:41 <fizzie> Well, the language model building and text tokenization is a mix of Perl, C++ and now Python.
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07:36:07 <fizzie> But the part that generates a random-ish string of tokens based on the model, and converts that to text, is Befunge. As is all the other IRC stuff.
07:36:49 <immibis> so the python/perl/c++ program reads input and builds the language model and word list?
07:37:37 <fizzie> Yes. The Funge-98 program uses the FILE fingerprint to seek around the tree-structured n-gram model (it's something like 200 megabytes for the IRC logs).
07:39:09 <immibis> why not have it ignore rare words, btw, to avoid saying fnord all the time?
07:39:24 <fungot> immibis: actually i mean watched you know
07:39:33 <fungot> immibis: uh members of the couple can be employed right um
07:39:43 <fungot> immibis: yeah i i'm on line like two or three
07:39:59 <immibis> fungot: are you written in only a few lines
07:39:59 <fungot> immibis: when i smoked other people's smoke didn't bother me
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07:40:20 <immibis> at least that kind of makes sense
07:40:34 <fizzie> I'm not sure how he's been smoking anything; I certainly haven't noticed any smoke in the room the computer is in, and he can't really step outside for a while.
07:41:20 <fizzie> fungot: When have you been smoking, huh?
07:41:20 <fungot> fizzie: ( ( hm)) and they were asking
07:41:34 <fizzie> fungot: Stop dodging the question.
07:41:34 <fungot> fizzie: to where i live
07:42:03 <fizzie> fungot: I know where you live; it's my apartment. At least don't smoke inside there!
07:42:11 <fizzie> I'm not sure I trust that.
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07:42:37 <immibis> fungot: What part of you is smoking?
07:42:44 <fungot> immibis: it'd be neat to see and for me it's stuff like that when my mother and my grandmother uh she taught me a little to far didn't they
07:42:58 <immibis> fungot: fizzie already told you not to avoid the question
07:42:59 <fungot> immibis: twenty thirteen and four a big gap
07:43:16 <fungot> immibis: fuel gasoline and they do
07:43:27 <immibis> fungot: yeah... you've been smoking gasoline?
07:43:38 <immibis> i think its in ignore-me mode'
07:43:49 <fizzie> Yeah, it's four replies per person consecutively.
07:44:03 <fizzie> Based on the output, I'd say it's more likely he's been sniffing gasoline than smoking it.
07:44:18 <fizzie> fungot: Not too many brain cells left in there, eh?
07:44:18 <fungot> fizzie: restaurant laughter and we
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07:46:29 <immibis> fungot: you should be careful smoking gasoline, you might burn down fizzie's apartment
07:46:30 <fungot> immibis: yeah everybody already so how are you)) to talk to
07:46:43 <immibis> fungot: er, pretty good. Now back on the subject.
07:46:44 <fungot> immibis: ( ( no laughter it laughter)) babies
07:46:55 <immibis> where do all the brackets come from?
07:47:10 <fizzie> It's a notation in the telephone transcriptions.
07:47:23 <fizzie> They use (( foo )) when the transcriber isn't quite sure what was said.
07:47:45 <fizzie> Also the "noise" and "laughter" things used to be [noise] and [laughter] but the bot apparently ignores [].
07:47:48 <immibis> fungot: you might even blow up your fnord supply
07:47:49 <fungot> immibis: ( ( how are ya))
07:48:01 <fungot> immibis: at any age should they read it out loud and i'm like
07:48:10 <immibis> fungot: yes. Stop smoking gasolinwe.
07:48:16 <fizzie> (And the extra spaces in "( ( " are a bug in the funge code I really should fix.)
07:59:08 <fizzie> Uh.. where have the pratchett files gone?
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08:00:16 <fizzie> Well, I'll just rebuild it.
08:01:17 <fizzie> fungot: Okay, do you feel Discworldy now?
08:01:17 <fungot> fizzie: the sergeant scratched his head.
08:01:37 <immibis> if i have a fingerprint which uses C and R (call it AAAA) and one that uses C and R and W (call it TEST) is there a way to have the C from AAAA but the R and W from TEST? (in funge 98)
08:01:48 <immibis> fungot: What is your name?
08:01:48 <fungot> immibis: he half ran, half limped with one squawking foot past the stalls.
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08:02:11 <immibis> fungot: Welcome to the discworld.
08:02:11 <fungot> immibis: " so put all this wizard nonsense out of your fnord be baked hard while others'd still be green.'
08:02:26 <fizzie> immibis: You can use the FING fingerprint to swap/copy/delete instructions.
08:02:32 <immibis> fungot: i haven't got an fnord
08:02:32 <fungot> immibis: he had set up an easel. " i thought it ended just as it did on the day.
08:03:44 <immibis> so: load FING, load TEST, map R to X, load AAAA, and use X instead of TEST's R?
08:04:05 <fizzie> I think you could, for example, load AAAA, then TEST, then FING, and then use 'CY to delete the C semantics loaded from TEST which would leave AAAA's C visible.
08:04:20 <fizzie> But you can remap to some other letter too if you think you have a use for TEST's C too.
08:05:20 <immibis> also have you noticed in rc/funge, 6k will actually execute the next instruction 7 times?
08:06:13 <fizzie> I don't think I've used 'k' in fungot. There are some RC/Funge-98 bugs (one or two) I've noticed when writing the bot, should probably have reported them via email back when I still remembered them.
08:06:13 <fungot> fizzie: " oh, a nice day, was sitting up in bed.
08:06:37 <immibis> fungot: where do you live?
08:06:37 <fungot> immibis: ' ronnie?' she said. " by the same teachers. but an fnord pair of nostril holes at the top of the steps leading up to some bronze doors, you say?
08:06:59 <immibis> fungot: yes, the bronze doors were nostril holes. makes perfect sense.
08:07:00 <fungot> immibis: people were disappearing and the first lot should be in a mood to confront vorbis there and then..
08:07:36 <immibis> fungot: ah so the first lot of people who disappeared wanted to confront vorbis?
08:07:37 <fungot> immibis: it had two streets in the sense of something. at the moment
08:08:27 <AnMaster_> <immibis> also have you noticed in rc/funge, 6k will actually execute the next instruction 7 times?
08:08:49 <AnMaster_> since it doesn't, and shouldn't, skip the next instruction
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08:09:10 <AnMaster> (who wrote the funge-98 spec after all)
08:09:52 <fizzie> I guess the spec doesn't say it should skip it. It just makes the 0 argument ("Note that some instructions don't make much sense within the context of k unless you include zero as one of the possibilities for how many times the instruction is repeated. For example, no matter how many times after the first time k execute ^, the result is the same. However, you may pass a zero count to k, and the ^ instruction will not be executed; this can be a valuable behaviou
08:09:53 <AnMaster> that is, unless it would be executed 0 times
08:10:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, no it doesn't, but the official catseye diagnosis did
08:11:21 <fizzie> That's very strange. I would've assumed 1kX to execute X only once.
08:12:41 <fizzie> It also makes it harder to use k$ to get rid of things on stack that have the format "x1 x2 .. xn n" since zero needs to be special-cased. Aw.
08:14:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, well in funge-108 k will skip over next instruction if it was the one it iterated on
08:14:59 <AnMaster> meaning you have to check if delta and pos are the same at the end of k
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08:20:00 <fizzie> Heh, apparently at least in RC/Funge-98 you can use "k#" to achieve something very close to "1-j".
08:20:51 <fizzie> Oh, _that's_ why EXEC has that K instruction; "what k should have been". I remember wondering about that.
08:21:27 <AnMaster> k searches past spaces and ;; pairs
08:21:47 <fizzie> Yes, which is why it'll "execute" the jumping, multiple times.
08:22:17 <fizzie> What it seems to do is to just add n*delta to the IP's position, which is initially at the 'k'.
08:22:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, as for K in EXEC, that fingerprint was added after long discussion over how k should work between me, Deewiant and Mike Riley
08:23:10 <AnMaster> and k in funge-108 mode in cfunge should work like that I believe
08:29:15 <AnMaster> immibis, C. Pressy suggested that name, and yes it is a draft I'm working on
08:29:56 <immibis> [20:29] ->> AnMaster is away: sleeping
08:30:11 <AnMaster> immibis, just forgot to change it
08:30:13 <AnMaster> http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge-108/funge108.pdf
08:30:22 -!- immibis has changed nick to immibis[A].
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08:30:28 * immibis is no longer away : Gone for X minutes and Y seconds
08:31:26 <AnMaster> * [AnMaster] is away (may be away)
08:31:56 <AnMaster> anyway I'm out for an hour or two. Cya
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09:57:15 <fizzie> Heh, ran the fungot training on the completely unstripped Wikipedia data (because I don't have time to handle the markup right now); it will probably sound really messed-up.
09:57:15 <fungot> fizzie: i randomly hit all keys until i knew what a raytracer was.
09:57:30 <fizzie> fungot: Does your brain feel scrambled now?
09:57:30 <fungot> fizzie: " his birth name. you can find an appropriate place in the article
09:57:43 <fizzie> fungot: That was surprisingly text-like.
09:57:43 <fungot> fizzie: ' ' ' :image:faith yang dame cover.jpg'" is being used on this article.
09:58:04 <fizzie> fungot: Uh, right... what article?
09:58:04 <fungot> fizzie: the number of speakers, whereas now it actually is due to to using that version of the enfield 8000 car to greece was
09:58:58 <fizzie> That's surprisingly legible.
10:20:01 <fizzie> fungot: Why are you not quoting the talk page signatures?
10:20:01 <fungot> fizzie: ' ' ' this'" wikipedia article constitutes fair use. in addition to the wikipedia:image copyright tags/ fair useboilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with wp:fufair use.
10:20:18 <fungot> fizzie: yes, according to the rules you fnord. user:stephen turnerstephen turner ( user talk:stephen turnertalk) 18:07, 18 december 2006 ( utc
10:20:34 <fizzie> fungot: Hey, that was a signature.
10:20:35 <fungot> fizzie: http://commons.wikimedia.org/ wiki/ fnord,
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11:58:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, odd there wasn't a lot of === and such
11:59:24 <AnMaster> fungot, where was the wiki markup
11:59:24 <fungot> AnMaster: so let's put it up as im in a fnord
11:59:25 <fizzie> Those probably get stripped out by the script.
11:59:55 <fizzie> It keeps only the punctuation I've provided names for, like parentheses and commas and such.
12:00:21 <fizzie> Yes, although I should really fix it manually to handle [[link|title]] and things.
12:00:27 <fungot> AnMaster: in the movie, he emphatically claims that he was suspect in this crime along with his brother. the case is made that is not the case.
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12:01:13 <fizzie> I don't think there's any real specification for the MediaWiki markup except "whatever it is our PHP parser does".
12:01:23 <fizzie> fungot: What movie was that?
12:01:23 <fungot> fizzie: as far as i can. three specific comments:
12:01:49 <fizzie> The conversation is really unfocused, which is understandable given that it's a really random selection of stuff.
12:02:03 <fizzie> Maybe I should've selected a couple of categories and use all talk pages in those.
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12:08:42 <fizzie> It keeps talking about fair use of images a lot.
12:16:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | there is....
12:18:27 <fizzie> optbot: There is... what?
12:18:27 <optbot> fizzie: i guess i'll give the new parser, then, since otherwise my paste has been a waste of bytes
12:29:53 <fungot> AnMaster: miss scarlet? my recollection is of all the important relevant facts on the topic of graphic photos within the greater context of its coverage of activism for specific causes. the pictures of pro-life and pro-choice arguments.
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12:30:30 <Slereah> A pro-choice argument picture would be a picture of you.
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12:41:37 <fizzie> That was quite a zing indeed.
12:41:46 <fizzie> fungot: Do you feel offended?
12:41:46 <fungot> fizzie: fnord 28 aos sin fnord fnord fnord fnord fnord
12:41:58 <fizzie> I don't quite know how to interpret that.
12:45:07 <ehird> <Slereah> A pro-choice argument picture would be a picture of you
12:45:14 <ehird> IF FUNGOT HAD A PICTURE
12:45:18 <ehird> fizzie: Plz draw picture of fungot
12:45:18 <fungot> ehird: i found the book i thought would have a range of different meanings depending on context, including variations by academic discipline and cultural setting, among others.
13:11:40 <oklopol> 22:52… asiekierka: which can be up to 140gigs or so
13:11:40 <oklopol> 22:52… asiekierka: I'd need a gigantic hard drive
13:12:03 <ehird> with liek 100 free
13:12:30 <LinuS> if you don't have any porn 100gb is gigantic
13:13:30 <ehird> i'll bet £1,000,000 that asiekierka doesn't have any porn
13:16:17 <fizzie> I was about to comment about the gigantic-ness of it, but thought it unnecessary. And besides, 140 gigs *is* gig-antic.
13:16:55 <AnMaster> I have 6 gb free. And no porn.
13:17:00 <fizzie> Still, I don't see why the HD would have to be particularly *fast* if you need a random line out of it; it's not like you'd have to read it all.
13:17:08 <ehird> AnMaster_: I would have also bet £1,000,000 on you not having any porn.
13:17:19 <ehird> If only someone was stupid enough to take these bets so I could be rich.
13:18:09 <AnMaster> also what was these 140 GB about?
13:18:11 <fizzie> There's 482 GB (out of 600 GB) free on my raid-1 /space partition; and 20 GB (out of 233 GB) in /home. I refuse to comment on any porn I may or may not have.
13:18:28 <fizzie> AnMaster: Uncompressed wikipedia dump. I'm not sure how large it really is, but that's a reasonable estimate, I guess.
13:18:36 <ehird> Wait. ENKI-][ == hakware?
13:18:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, does that include history or just last revision?
13:19:08 <fizzie> s/600/700/ up there, typoed.
13:19:09 <ehird> a wikipedia dump is about 2gb
13:19:16 <ehird> including full revisions, iirc
13:19:18 <fizzie> I think the 140 GB dump is the one with all revisions.
13:19:29 <ehird> images would likely be a few TB
13:19:37 <fizzie> It's already 8 gigabytes bzip2'ed with only the last revision (but including user and talk pages).
13:19:38 <AnMaster> also fizzie downloaded an 8 gb dump iirc
13:19:42 <ehird> AnMaster_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download
13:19:48 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download
13:19:55 <AnMaster> why do you keep saying AnMaster_?
13:19:56 <ehird> <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download
13:20:02 <AnMaster> my client suggests I'm AnMaster
13:20:08 <ehird> AnMaster_ is in here.
13:20:12 <ehird> And my client completes it as AnMaster_ first.
13:20:25 <fizzie> I don't see an AnMaster_ here either.
13:20:28 <AnMaster> should report the issue to freenode staff then ehird
13:20:35 <ehird> Well, it claims you're offline, despite being in here.
13:20:36 <AnMaster> after you checked it isn't just your client
13:20:40 <ehird> So that's a delicious client bug.
13:20:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Hi, welcome to 3 seconds ago.
13:20:58 <ehird> Currently Wikipedia does not allow or provide facilities to download all Images
13:20:58 <ehird> As of May 17, 2007, Wikipedia disabled or neglected all viable bulk downloads of images including torrent trackers. Therefore, there is no way to download image dumps other than scraping Wikipedia pages up or using Wikix, which converts a database dump into a series of scripts to fetch the images.
13:21:07 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> after you checked it isn't just your client
13:21:08 <AnMaster> <ehird> Well, it claims you're offline, despite being in here.
13:21:12 <ehird> heh: [[As of March 24, 2008, using a cable modem, the entire set of Wikipedia images can be downloaded in about 96 hours using this program (420 GB as of 3/24/08).]]
13:21:21 <ehird> AnMaster: I said that before you on my end.
13:21:34 <ehird> Yours was a few sceonds later for me.
13:21:48 <AnMaster> ehird, so, well your comment makes no sense on irc
13:22:07 <ehird> I can trivially talk about the relative times that I received.
13:22:16 <ehird> I am not psychic. I cannot tell if there is large server lag.
13:22:51 <ehird> Since when did you need to be?
13:23:07 <AnMaster> ehird, since you implied that I should have read a message before it arrived on my end
13:23:39 <ehird> I did not know there was large server lag.
13:23:50 <ehird> Therefore, since your message came 3 or so seconds later, it was reasonable to refer to it in the past.
13:24:59 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway it is odd that your client didn't see a part or nick change
13:25:09 <ehird> I am using a bouncer.
13:25:22 <ehird> It likely didn't sent the proper quit message, or something.
13:25:23 <AnMaster> 09:09:00 I changed nick from AnMaster_ to AnMaster
13:25:29 <ehird> But when I do a whois it rightly tells me it's offline.
13:25:46 <ehird> I am not particularly interested in the time.
13:25:56 <AnMaster> well just telling it was a nick change, not a quit
13:26:15 <AnMaster> AnMaster would have quit before that (time out)
13:26:41 <fizzie> fungot: Say something interesting to distract those two from their going-nowhere conversation.
13:26:41 <fungot> fizzie: you need fnord 02:18, 13 june 2008 ( utc
13:27:02 <fizzie> Oh. Well, I don't have any fnords. :/
13:27:24 <fungot> AnMaster: does it really add to general information? some more germane questions the section might answer:
13:27:36 <fungot> AnMaster: video on demand
13:33:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, this language model for fungot is quite interesting actually
13:33:28 <fungot> AnMaster: 17. institute of home science ( 1980), basic sciences ( 1981). fnord
13:33:45 <fungot> AnMaster: 11. so the fnord fnord
13:34:11 <ehird> AnMaster: it sjust a markov chain
13:34:21 <ehird> me and oklopol wrote them a lot a while back, they're like 30 lines
13:34:22 <ehird> including irc code
13:34:38 <ehird> well, it's not "quite interesting", really
13:35:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean this is more interesting than when he loaded the telephone convos
13:35:28 <ehird> that'd be "dataset", then
13:35:32 <ehird> not "language model"
13:40:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I define "language model" to mean "dataset" using be (not become) ;P
13:41:00 <fizzie> Well, it's a language model I built from a particular set of data.
13:42:26 <fizzie> The speech-recognition terminology I'm most familiar with calls a particular set of n-grams "a language model".
13:42:52 <AnMaster> well then it was the right word I guess
13:43:18 <fizzie> I guess it's an issue of definition; you could argue that it'ss the algorithm that's more like "a model of language", and the data it's now running with is just one instance of it.
13:43:23 <oklopol> 108 isn't n-dimensional :<
13:43:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, and? It would break too much stuff
13:43:44 <AnMaster> you can extend it to n dimensions
13:43:57 <oklopol> don't you make a new language exactly when you don't want to worry about breaking stuff :o
13:44:13 <AnMaster> oklopol, it is not a new language, it is a revision of a current one
13:44:36 <AnMaster> I think it clearly states that in the abstract and/or introduction
13:45:21 <oklopol> you can extend it to n dimensions only up to a fixed n
13:45:42 <oklopol> you would need a drastic language change for it to be truly n-dimensional
13:46:16 <oklopol> but you have to realize i'm also disappointed it doesn't run on reals, for instance.
13:46:38 <oklopol> i'm a man of desire for such purity that things simply don't make sense anymore.
13:47:15 <fizzie> Yes, it does seem a bit like Funge-98 Technical Corrigendum 1. :p
13:47:39 <ehird> funge-108 is goign to be implemented by one person and have programs written by only one person.
13:47:56 <ehird> and they will be ugly because it just consists of clarifications everyone agrees on anyway, and stuff that makes code ugly like the uri fingerprints
13:50:28 * oklopol considers making a funge-109, object-oriented statically typed n-dimentional funge on reals
13:52:00 <ehird> oklopol: funge-109 is so ugly, call it a nice pretty name
13:52:04 <ehird> like Delicious Funge
13:52:12 <ehird> who wouldn't use a language called Delicious Funge?
13:53:02 <oklopol> it would be pretty delicious.
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13:53:46 <ehird> oklopol: just think about delicious funge, imagine a kind of... block of funge, pure eso goodness
13:53:49 <ehird> and you can eat it
13:53:52 <ehird> and it is delicious
13:54:42 <oklopol> but can i officially call it funge-109, so that all the funge-people will be pissed?
13:54:59 <LinuS> there's no officiality in esolangs
13:55:03 <ehird> oklopol: no, because that is not a delicious name
13:55:13 <ehird> it has to be Delicious Funge
13:55:31 <oklopol> well 109 is leet for "lop", which sounds like someone taking a lick with their tongue
13:56:19 <ehird> oklopol: funge-1851982739541962225011
13:57:16 <ehird> oklopol: pfft, hex english is stupid
13:57:22 <ehird> 1851982739541962225011 wtf
13:59:32 <oklopol> but it's okay if translated to base 10
13:59:56 * oklopol slaps oklopol for saying something good about base 10
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14:14:48 <oklopol> i solved my noprob problem, turns out it's *impossible* to do what i tried to do!
14:15:15 <oklopol> the example, A = B ^ C, where A is not known, B = 1%2, and C = 1, it does indeed set A to 1%2
14:15:29 <oklopol> but, it doesn't set A to an *independent* 1%2
14:15:54 <oklopol> so, while all these relations are symmetric
14:16:21 <oklopol> A = B ^ C where A and B are 1%2 and C is not known doesn't make C 1, because A and B are independent, this is not a symmetric case.
14:16:50 <oklopol> point being: i'm an idiot, and it's again an open case whether noprob is tc.
14:18:51 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH I JUST SAW A COMMENT BY ais523 ON WIKIPEDIA
14:18:58 <ehird> stuff like that always weirds me out
14:19:27 <oklopol> yeah it's weird bumping into irc people in the real world
14:20:22 <ehird> lol, he's arguing for moving the main page to portal:something (or was, in jan 07)
14:21:59 <oklopol> always thinking in portals
14:22:15 <ehird> oklopol: is that just a completely random, nonsensical comment for no reason?
14:22:28 <oklopol> actually that was a portal pun
14:25:01 <oklopol> they woman says "now you're thinking in portals" in the trailer-thingie
14:25:06 <oklopol> i haven't actually played the game
14:25:20 <ehird> now you're thinking WITH portals
14:26:31 <oklopol> i'd prefer "thinking in portals", that's an inherently more portal way to think
14:45:18 <oklopol> Author of the Funge-98 interpreter CCBI and contriubtor of many valuable
14:46:52 <oklopol> This inducates the implementation is free to do whatever it wants,
14:46:52 <oklopol> even error out. However an implementation SHOULD not crash or
14:46:52 <oklopol> lock up, it SHOULD error out gracefully.
14:48:14 <fizzie> There are typos, yes. Also page 43, first item of the first bullet-point list, "implmenetation".
14:49:39 <ehird> also the grammar and phrasage is really really awkawrd
14:49:44 <ehird> like most of AnMaster's speech >.<
14:51:17 <oklopol> how are the ranges wrong on page 5?
14:51:46 <oklopol> and heh, i was just thinking it was much better than his usual speech.
14:51:48 <fizzie> Page 51 second line: "implemenation". Although I'm not sure how much sense it makes to manually list these; some sort of a spell-checker would catch real typos.
14:52:12 <fizzie> (My page numbers were pdf-pages, not real page numbers.)
14:52:18 <oklopol> well yeah, guess i could stop listing those, i'm not comfortable listing anything other than typos anyway
14:52:36 <oklopol> because only with typos am i confident i can fix them all
14:52:52 <ehird> <oklopol> and heh, i was just thinking it was much better than his usual speech.
14:52:57 <ehird> because we keep correcting him.
14:53:38 <fizzie> I don't know about the ranges, on first glance they seem to be [-2^31, 2^31 - 1] like they should.
14:54:58 <oklopol> hmm, actually i may be reading things chris has written atm, because there are "comments for chris" right after them questioning the text.
14:55:23 <oklopol> i'm not actually sure what i'm reading, but who cares, it's better than learning to use microsoft word for tomorrow's test :-D
14:55:44 <ehird> AnMaster: Why do you say what whenever I mention your name?
14:55:49 <ehird> Other people mentioned it before me, too.
14:55:53 <fizzie> Also isn't it Pressey, not Pressy?
14:55:59 <AnMaster> ehird, not since the last line I said
14:57:11 <AnMaster> ehird, if you point out the specific grammar problems I'm more than happy to correct them
14:57:30 <ehird> I would, except I'd flood the channel by pasting the entire thing in...
14:57:31 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Yes, it does seem a bit like Funge-98 Technical Corrigendum 1. :p <-- intended
14:57:59 <AnMaster> * oklopol considers making a funge-109, object-oriented statically typed n-dimentional funge on reals <-- funge-108 may turn into 109 depending on how much time I have
14:58:10 <AnMaster> probably will get more free time at the end of next month
14:58:20 <oklopol> AnMaster: well 110 then, but i guess i'd have to include the automaton somehow, then.
14:58:42 <ehird> oklopol: DELICIOUS FUNGE
14:59:31 <ehird> delicious funge is what i told oklopol to name his amazing funge
15:00:15 <fizzie> "Funge With A Flavor" could be the name of a Funge programming book; with a picture of a cat licking something fungeoid on the cover.
15:01:09 <ehird> (on O RLY...) a bad one, albeit
15:01:29 <fizzie> Yes, I caught it a few seconds too late, when I started to wonder why it was in all caps.
15:01:33 <AnMaster> also fixed the typos I saw mentioned above,
15:01:44 <AnMaster> and yes I need to run a spell checker over it
15:04:08 <ehird> meanwhile, we seem to have established a bit of informal precedent in agora that an ascii art picture of a whale is in fact a noun
15:04:18 <ehird> and that an ascii art picture of the cookie monster is the word "Monster"
15:05:13 <AnMaster> heh, specific pictures of them, or any pictures depicting those items (rendered as ASCII art of course)
15:06:15 <ehird> probably all pictures but the precedent is for one bit
15:06:47 <ehird> AnMaster: mad scientist is an agora office that every week publishes a proposal to add to the Monster rule, a few sentences from a randomly selected rule with a certain noun replaced with Monster throughout
15:06:51 <ehird> i am currently the mad scientist
15:06:56 <ehird> and the random rule picked was 2105
15:06:59 <ehird> the ascii art map of agora
15:07:04 <ehird> see The Map of Agora in http://agora.qoid.us/current_flr.txt
15:07:10 <ehird> i replaced the whale with an ascii art cookie monster
15:07:17 <ehird> hopefully it will pass
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15:08:10 <ehird> cmeme doesn't talk.
15:08:27 <asiekierka> Also, ehird, will you give me the implementation(s) of DOBELA you (supposedly) made?
15:08:46 <AnMaster> ehird, that map seems like based on Australia, but with most names (all? Unsure about "Darwin", could be a real location) replaced
15:09:46 <fizzie> Canberra is in Australia, and approximately at the correct location too.
15:10:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah and so is Brisbane iirc?
15:10:03 <ehird> AnMaster: agora was founded in an australian university
15:10:09 <AnMaster> not sure if it is correct placement
15:10:13 <ehird> and its birthday is officially in the australian timezone
15:10:17 <ehird> even though everything else uses utc
15:10:26 <AnMaster> "MANUBOURNE" is typo for Melbourne I guess
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15:10:46 <ehird> unlikely to be a typo.
15:10:47 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:10:50 <ehird> there are very few typos in the ruleset
15:10:53 <fizzie> Intentional misspellings might not be callable typos.
15:11:31 <fizzie> Must move home now, away for a while.
15:11:51 <AnMaster> ehird, how would you output an ascii value using thutu I wonder...
15:12:15 <AnMaster> asiekierka, anyway spam elsewhere ;P
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15:14:08 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:14:42 <asiekierka> i will stop if ehird gives me what he said he did
15:15:04 <ehird> Actually, if you keep spamming we'll just /ignore you.
15:16:16 <asiekierka> Just, can someone get thutubot to #-blah?
15:16:38 <asiekierka> woahwoahwoah, wait, is it HARDWIRED to #esoteric? T_T
15:16:47 <ehird> It runs on my server.
15:16:48 <ehird> I would be able to do it if I knew thutu.
15:17:00 <ehird> asiekierka: It is written in a string rewriting langue.
15:17:04 <ehird> You were perhaps expecting a configuration file?
15:17:15 <asiekierka> I was expecting that you can go Edit-Find...
15:18:07 <ehird> I'm not modifying ais523's code, it's in his account.
15:19:07 <asiekierka> It's sad there can't be an Regular Expressions IRC bot
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15:41:10 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you said you resumed working on that taxibot?
15:43:37 <asiekierka> 08:50:12 <asiekierka> Someone remembers my TaxiBot project?
15:43:38 <asiekierka> 08:50:21 <AnMaster> you gave it up yes
15:43:38 <asiekierka> 08:50:24 <asiekierka> No, i'm not going back to work on it
15:43:46 <asiekierka> 08:50:28 <asiekierka> But i planned to make a Taxi-like languagwe
15:44:09 <AnMaster> since it started with "No," the "not" made no sense there
15:44:28 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well you got a too short attention span
15:45:03 <ehird> AnMaster: 'well, your attention span is too short'
15:45:41 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well and then decided to not implement it
15:45:56 <asiekierka> but "i don't know HOW TO implement it"
15:45:57 <AnMaster> and that is fine, except you tried to get other ppl to implement it
15:46:11 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I recommend learning then :)
15:46:30 <asiekierka> I wonder if i can implement DOBELA in ALPACA
15:46:52 <AnMaster> asiekierka, isn't alpaca for cell automatons?
15:47:03 <AnMaster> which iirc it turned out dobela wasn't
15:47:52 <asiekierka> The hard thing (for me) about it is that i must manage up to (infinity) number of dots
15:48:11 <asiekierka> because you don't know how many you'll need
15:49:44 <asiekierka> Some things (a binary BF/BCT interpreter) would need about infinity dots
15:51:15 <AnMaster> I just had a look at the wikipedia article for F#... It seems like a horrible language, taking the worst from functional and the worst from imperative and gluing it together with a horrible syntax
15:52:49 <oklopol> asiekierka: what'a hard about infinite dots?
15:53:22 <fizzie> It's not Fortran-inspired? A shame.
15:53:59 <asiekierka> oklopol: I don't know programming this well to make dynamic stuff
15:54:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, no it seems to be a mix of the worst of lisp, haskell and C# using a messy infix notation.
15:54:41 <oklopol> asiekierka: there's really no difference between a finite and an infinitely extendable amount, except that you need to change your container.
15:55:05 <oklopol> assuming a language capable of that
15:55:21 <oklopol> if the language isn't capable of that, it's not good for a noober imo
15:55:25 <AnMaster> yes and many high-level languages provide such stuff in either the syntax of the language or in the standard library
15:56:07 <oklopol> delphi isn't a language, it's an anima
15:56:30 <oklopol> the animal is not a delphin, dear oklopol
15:56:31 <AnMaster> anime? Doesn't make more sense
15:57:26 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, but my pun-engine is a bit borken, it confused dolphin with the finnish version for the purpose of dropping the last character
15:57:36 * asiekierka sees AnMaster have won, so he gives him something, that is, a box of DOBELA characters. Paper cutouts, to be exact.
15:57:56 <AnMaster> hm seems like wikipedia had a page moving vandal since "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphi" redirects to "H,,,,Ě,,,,R,,,,M,,,,E,,,,E ?"
15:58:18 <AnMaster> oklopol, delfin in Swedish btw
15:58:35 <ehird> Revision history of H,,,,Ě,,,,R,,,,M,,,,E,,,,E ?
15:58:35 <ehird> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
15:58:35 <ehird> View logs for this page
15:58:35 <ehird> There is no revision history for this page.
15:58:46 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah got no idea about that...
15:58:49 <oklopol> it's with an "e" in all other languages
15:59:12 <asiekierka> what i hate is the 0/0 0/1 1/0 1/1 collision rules!
15:59:16 <ehird> probably a database glitch.
15:59:25 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean corrupted database?
15:59:33 <ehird> or encoding issues
16:00:17 <asiekierka> Basically, i can't check topleftmostness for 30000 dots without taking up a lot of CPU time
16:00:26 <asiekierka> So i will just do it in the order of "first created"
16:00:39 <oklopol> what's your dot representatino
16:01:01 <oklopol> and 30000 checks is nothing
16:01:38 <oklopol> but, when programming, an arbitrary number *anywhere* is usually a sign of bad design.
16:02:25 <asiekierka> even the Hello! program needs 56 dots or so
16:02:48 <AnMaster> you don't want to check everything
16:02:54 <AnMaster> you only want to check what is relevant
16:02:58 <asiekierka> How will i know what is the topleftmost
16:03:26 <oklopol> what the fuck is that number
16:03:34 <AnMaster> asiekierka, there could be more
16:03:34 <fizzie> Keep them dots in the correct order all the time?
16:03:44 <asiekierka> fizzie: I'd need to move the array all around
16:04:02 <asiekierka> Except if i'd store the directions and just update them on a map X,Y array
16:04:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think asiekierka don't know about "malloc" assuming you have to do static foo myarray[30000]
16:04:14 <AnMaster> that is the only way I can explain it
16:04:31 <asiekierka> and not assuming my program has max 30000 dots
16:04:40 <asiekierka> but the program in DOBELA currently has 30000 dots on the board
16:04:47 <ehird> AnMaster: asiekierka can't program beyond trivial stuff
16:05:16 <ehird> oklopol: presumably, runs on the nintendo ds
16:05:35 <oklopol> "wireworld ds" sounded more like a wireworld console than wireworld in a console
16:05:44 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well then that program is large enough to be slow I guess. While you can't directly use Game of Life algorithms, they may provide some useful insight in how to handle stuff like this.
16:06:26 <asiekierka> I still need to store what's the dot's X,Y
16:07:19 <asiekierka> so every dot and generator has it's ID
16:07:22 <AnMaster> as long as it isn't statically allocated...
16:07:47 <asiekierka> By default i'm taking as much dot memory as large the map is
16:08:01 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you need a well defined processing order. What cell do you start with? Do you process it line by line?
16:08:12 <asiekierka> The topleftmost, line by line, left-right
16:08:44 <AnMaster> asiekierka, Well you need to use a sparse structure really.
16:09:09 <AnMaster> and, you need to remember other stuff than dots, such as walls and so on
16:09:31 <asiekierka> only the | wall, generators and dots are really changeable
16:09:44 <AnMaster> asiekierka, and collision could lead to new walls
16:09:56 <asiekierka> and they will be checked on the map array
16:10:26 <asiekierka> or i could just wait for my friend who'll do it for me
16:10:31 <AnMaster> why two arrays? It seems a waste of memory, since no dots can ever exists on the same cell as an object
16:10:55 <asiekierka> but i need to store information about every dot
16:11:16 <AnMaster> well do it in the record for the object?
16:11:40 <asiekierka> basically, have X, Y, type, data1, data2, data3
16:11:56 <AnMaster> well you don't need to store stuff for all types
16:12:20 <AnMaster> in fact with clever encoding I suspect one byte will be enough for everything
16:12:39 <AnMaster> basically dot-going-up, dot-going-down, dot-going-left
16:12:49 <asiekierka> actually, it can either go up, down, left, right
16:12:50 <AnMaster> asiekierka, x/y would be the key
16:13:06 <AnMaster> asiekierka, in the associative array
16:13:49 <AnMaster> you have 4 variants of 1-dot, 4 variants of 0-dot, two variants of |
16:14:28 <oklopol> AnMaster: please don't teach people to program here, at least i find it a lot more annoying than botflood :P
16:14:45 <oklopol> well i guess you're talking about ways to implement this
16:15:06 <oklopol> i'm just annoyed because i want to read everything and i should be doing something else.
16:15:06 <AnMaster> asiekierka, so treat the different directions of dots as different objects, meaning you can all encode it in one byte
16:15:59 <AnMaster> asiekierka, everything is one byte, coordinates (key for map) would be 8 bytes assuming 32-bit integers for x and for y.
16:16:46 <AnMaster> now I think a balanced tree may be a good representation
16:16:57 <AnMaster> better implement different alternatives to see which one works best
16:17:24 <AnMaster> you need to be able to insert/delete fast and iterate in order fast.
16:17:40 <AnMaster> so some type of associative array.
16:17:54 <asiekierka> i don't really care about optimization
16:18:25 <AnMaster> as long as you separate the storage logic from the computation logic it shouldn't be hard to replace
16:18:44 <AnMaster> now I leave the rest up to you
16:19:04 <asiekierka> oh, and i have a global 1-bit fifo to maintain too
16:19:30 <fizzie> You also have an AnMaster to maintain. :p
16:20:26 <fizzie> fungot: How would you implement this?
16:20:26 <fungot> fizzie: 20:25, june 1, 2007.
16:20:38 <fizzie> fungot: Oh, you already did.
16:20:39 <fungot> fizzie: why does the hollyoaks page still refer to essentially the same throughout every revision. this article mentions that a helix cannot be rotated or ' ' land" into either of them to the article.
16:23:05 <asiekierka> [ ] [ ] [ [ ] ] ] ] [ ] [ ] ] ] ] [ [ [ [ ]
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16:28:13 <asiekierka> + [ + [ + [ + [ + [ + [ + [ + [ + [ + [ ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] - hrh
16:29:34 <fizzie> That's a not terribly interesting infinite loop.
16:29:59 <AnMaster> <asiekierka> isn't Proton inspired from DOBELA <-- not much
16:30:16 <AnMaster> it was inspired by reading half a line you said about particles bouncing off walls
16:30:25 <AnMaster> + having a physics test the day after
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16:41:36 <asiekierka> what are the ways to prove that something IS turing-complete
16:42:07 <Deewiant> show that it can run brainfuck ;-)
16:43:17 <fizzie> Show that it can simulate a universal Turing machine.
16:43:20 <Deewiant> show that it can run anything which can run brainfuck
16:43:42 <Deewiant> Depends on the situation, I suspect
16:43:47 <fizzie> Whatever most naturally maps to the language in question, I guess.
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16:45:11 <fizzie> For some reason I find the "99% turing-complete" thing amusing.
16:45:34 <fizzie> But tag systems are pretty primitive and *might* be easier to do than brainfuck.
16:46:02 <oklopol> if there's a queue, a cyclic tag system, if there's a stack, sk, if you can move around the memory as you like, brainfuck, minsky machine if you have unbounded registers of some sort
16:46:06 <GregorR> This is not a continuous measurement :P
16:46:12 <Slereah_> Like, there's one particular function that you can't do?
16:46:19 <asiekierka> 99% is "command/rule compatible, probably"
16:46:35 <GregorR> Sounds like you're 99% sure it's Turing complete.
16:46:36 <oklopol> GregorR: that's what makes it funny, it's like saying something is 99% infinite
16:46:40 <GregorR> But it's either 0% or 10)% Turing complete.
16:46:53 <asiekierka> GregorRRRRRRRRRR: 10)%??????????????????
16:47:05 <Slereah_> Let's imagine some godel encoding of a Turing machine
16:47:06 <fizzie> GregorR: That's what the DOBELA esolangs-wiki-page says: it's "quite surely" 99% TC.
16:47:18 <Slereah_> For every program description that is =0 mod 100
16:47:24 <Slereah_> This program does not exist in our language
16:48:10 <oklopol> but it may well be it's true for all encodings
16:49:15 <GregorR> You pronounce it doo-BEE-lah?
16:49:55 <GregorR> Slereah_: That reminds me, why is your ident jewbutt? :P
16:50:46 <Slereah_> So I use the first word that springs to mind
16:51:14 <GregorR> Deewiant: WTF I say to that URL.
16:54:16 <Slereah_> I changed from butt to jewbutt yesterday, actually, or two days ago I think
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16:55:31 <fizzie> That was quite a "bam!".
16:55:49 <Slereah_> http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/0/01/Dsfargeg_thread.jpg
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17:05:48 <Deewiant> +ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
17:05:49 <thutubot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/******************************************************* ...too much output!
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17:12:18 <asiekierka> +ul (:~SaS(iekierka)!):~SaS(iekierka)!
17:12:18 <thutubot> :~SaS(iekierka)!(:~SaS(iekierka)!)
17:12:53 <asiekierka> +ul (:a~*S(iekierka)!):a~*S(iekierka)!
17:12:53 <thutubot> (:a~*S(iekierka)!):a~*S(iekierka)!
17:27:37 <ratification> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7680641.stm *snerk*
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18:01:40 <GregorR> "Snerk"ing at the title of that article is both extremely offensive and hilarious.
18:16:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | leave out the -F.
18:16:51 <asiekierka> http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20081023 - check it out
18:17:04 <oklopol> hmm, was the joke that ms can mean microsoft?
18:17:14 <oklopol> well i don't care, i don't wanna be offended
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18:24:25 <fizzie> The "leave out the -F" was about grep's command line arguments.
18:31:25 <oklopol> ehird: i said i didn't wanna be offended! :|
18:32:27 <asiekierka> but i don't know what the article is about
18:32:32 <asiekierka> so i'll be quietlyquietlysuperquietultra
18:33:48 <asiekierka> Since i got the bandwidth speed equal to what i'd have if i downloaded above 5GB/month
18:33:54 <asiekierka> the first day when the limit was reset!
18:34:40 <oklopol> 20:32:08 asiekierka: but i don't know what the article is about <<< how about read the caption :P
18:35:15 <asiekierka> how about saying my internet is 32kbits/s due to a stupid ISP problem and rrrreemain quiet
18:36:49 <asiekierka> i started to realize how -1 in UL worked
18:37:06 <asiekierka> And I started to have some ideas on how UL subtraction works
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18:39:22 <asiekierka> I forgot about my fixer, or "adding 1 before"
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18:40:59 <oklopol> that doesn't really look like a "substraction block", more like... just creating a number
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18:52:46 <GregorR> http://purdueextremecroquet.org/
19:00:02 <fizzie> I have a strange urge to say "maybe you should be implementing DOBELA", but I intend to resist it and not say anything.
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19:11:36 <oklopol> GregorR: that's a fun game
19:20:36 <asiekierka> fizzie: not really in the implementimood
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20:08:37 <oerjan> YOUR INTERNETS ASPLODE
20:11:43 <oerjan> something's wrong - that phrase only gives 2 google hits
20:18:05 <asiekierka> 4294967296*4294967296=18446744073709551616
20:18:36 <AnMaster> ** exception error: no match of right hand side value 4294967297
20:19:07 <AnMaster> anyway asiekierka is obviously using a calculator for the latter ones
20:19:47 <oerjan> after 65536 i only know 1048576 by heart
20:20:23 <oerjan> of course someone _could_ be memorizing further
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20:22:58 <oerjan> now memorizing powers of 3, _that_ would be geeky
20:24:13 <oklopol> prolly wrong already, and why do i keep ircing.
20:24:33 <oerjan> actually you missed two
20:25:24 <oerjan> oh you were trying to square?
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20:25:44 <Deewiant> yes, the operative word being "trying" :-P
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20:31:54 <fizzie> After 65536 I only remember 131072, 262144, 1048576 and 16777216.
20:32:21 <fizzie> That last one was at least some "our displays can show this many colours" advertisement.
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20:34:23 <AnMaster> I only remember 2 4 6 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192
20:35:21 <oerjan> memory is such a fickle thing
20:35:59 <fizzie> 16384, 32768 and 65536 appear quite often too.
20:36:31 <oklopol> i remember all powers of two in binary
20:36:59 <oklopol> do you want a list or something?
20:37:08 <AnMaster> well no because I see the joke
20:37:30 <fizzie> Oh, and 1474560 -- the size of the standard "1.44 MB" floppy.
20:38:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, really? Well I might have said I haven't used floppies for years, except I recently (two months ago) did a BIOS update
20:38:11 <AnMaster> but apart from that it is true
20:38:44 <oklopol> floppies? i recall using those when moving some of my games from a comp to another, i think that was some 10 years ago
20:39:19 <oklopol> after that i don't recall any instance of using them
20:39:21 <fizzie> I probably used a floppy for some booting purposes as recently as ~5 years ago.
20:39:26 <oklopol> but i've probably seen a lot of them
20:39:43 <oerjan> fizzie: except that's not actually a power of 2
20:39:50 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, it's just a number I recall.
20:40:32 <fizzie> And it's almost a power of 2, anyway; there's a 3^2*5 in there, but that's not much.
20:41:05 <fizzie> 2^15*3^2*5; the factors of 2 dominate.
20:41:55 <fizzie> ~3.14159265359; that's all I remember of that particular number. Some people remember pi to a ridiculous amount of digits.
20:42:14 <fizzie> I think mooz used to remember the first 100, at least.
20:42:33 <oklopol> 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944...
20:42:48 <fizzie> I just remember that it's the ..18281828 and then it goes confusing.
20:43:46 <fizzie> Can't say I've ever *needed* to remember those numbers.
20:44:26 <Deewiant> oklopol: heh, that's exactly as much as I remember
20:44:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you remember THAT MUCH?
20:45:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is near the start
20:46:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is near the start too
20:46:09 <Deewiant> I think I never memorized beyond the "81640" there
20:46:20 <Deewiant> yes, and it's an infinite number of times later too
20:49:15 <fizzie> ^bf >++++[-<++++++++>]>+++++++[-<+++++++>]<[[.<]>[>]<[->+>+<<]>>-[-<<+>>]<]
20:49:16 <fungot> 1 10 100 1000 10000 100000 1000000 10000000 100000000 1000000000 10000000000 100000000000 1000000000000 10000000000000 100000000000000 1000000000000000 10000000000000000 100000000000000000 100000000000000000 ...
20:49:21 <fizzie> There's them powers of two in binaery.
20:49:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is that true for every finite sequence?
20:50:04 <fizzie> My brainfuck-fu is weak, took me almost five minutes to write that much.
20:51:19 <oerjan> AnMaster: it is probable but unknown, for all finite sequences
20:51:46 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_number
20:51:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so how do you know that "592" occurs an infinite number of times?
20:52:16 <oerjan> AnMaster: he _doesn't_ know
20:52:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes that is a button on google
20:52:34 <oerjan> but most who have considered it, think it is
20:52:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: didn't even occur to me
20:52:58 <Deewiant> (that it is a button on the main google page)
20:53:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I was trying to make a joke yes
20:53:29 <AnMaster> and it was quite good. YET NO ONE GOT IT!
20:53:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes, and I didn't get it :-P
20:55:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw, what is that "----###"?
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22:38:35 <fizzie> ^bf ++[[<+++++++[-<+++++++>]>[-<+<+>>]<[->+<]<--.[-]<]++++[->++++++++<]>.[-]>>[-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<-[>-------->+>[->+>+<<]+>>[<<->>[-]]<<[>+<-]>[-<+>]<<<<-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<[-]]]]]]]]]]<[->+<]>+>[-<+>]>>]<<<]
22:38:35 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 42949672 ...
22:38:45 <fizzie> I suck at the brainfuck; that's way longer than it really should.
22:39:13 <ehird> http://blog.wired.com/music/2008/10/dr-pepper-to-ma.html Awesome!
22:57:22 <fizzie> Er, it just keeps the decimal digits on the tape; goes from the most significant end to the least significant printing them out; and then does a *2 operation on its way back.
22:57:26 <oklopol> i'd prolly store the number reversed on the array, and each cycle, multiply all cells by two, then do carries, then print with 48 added
22:58:05 <fizzie> It's that mostly -[>++<-[>++<-[... -looking part.
22:58:43 <oklopol> it's pretty, but i'd probably have to manually execute it for a while to be able to understand it.
22:58:49 <fizzie> Except that the carry-setting part is a bit overcomplicated since it needs to make the number longer.
22:59:02 <oklopol> that's why i'd've stored it reversed
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23:00:07 <fizzie> It is reversed, but I keep track of where the number ends by using a 1 to store a 0 and so on; so it needs to change a potential 0 there to 1 so that there's something to add the carry to.
23:00:26 <fizzie> Since the tape wraps, it doesn't really matter if it's "reversed" or not, it's just a matter of tr/<>/></ anyway.
23:00:39 <fizzie> ^def pow2 bf ++[[<+++++++[-<+++++++>]>[-<+<+>>]<[->+<]<--.[-]<]++++[->++++++++<]>.[-]>>[-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<-[>-------->+>[->+>+<<]+>>[<<->>[-]]<<[>+<-]>[-<+>]<<<<-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<[-]]]]]]]]]]<[->+<]>+>[-<+>]>>]<<<]
23:00:47 <fizzie> Whoops, that was the def part, not the ^bf part.
23:00:52 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 42949672 ...
23:01:52 <ais523|mibbit> really, I need to come up with a better base-10-output routine for Underload
23:01:52 <fizzie> If you can call it "arithmetic", since it only does *2.
23:02:12 <ais523|mibbit> also, what base does it store numbers in? Decimal?
23:02:15 <fizzie> No. Well, when the number reaches the tape length.
23:02:20 <fizzie> Decimal, for easy output.
23:03:16 <fizzie> The fungot implementation has a... what was it? Some reasonable number, I didn't want a huge funge-space.
23:03:16 <fungot> fizzie: in the final example given fnord),
23:03:43 <ais523|mibbit> I know Thutubot cuts off at 65534 bytes of internal memory used
23:03:47 <oklopol> i know, thought i'd make the point anyway, though
23:03:53 <ais523|mibbit> because that's the largest number you can put in a {} block in a Perl regex
23:04:26 <fizzie> I think it's just a thousand cells in fungot. It probably runs out of time or output length for anything that seriously needs more.
23:04:26 <fungot> fizzie: under the major heading " renewable energy support mechanisms
23:04:31 <ais523|mibbit> I cheat with implementing the regexen in Thutu, I just copy them verbatim into Perl and let it interpret them
23:05:12 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>]
23:05:37 <fizzie> Yes. Although that would probably show the bf version even if I had a built-in command of the same name.
23:06:07 <ais523|mibbit> hmm... I'm surprised at how tolerant Keymaker's Underload-in-BF is
23:06:26 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output!
23:06:53 <fizzie> Is there any way of getting Underload to output characters that do not appear in the program? I guess not. (Well, except parentheses maybe.)
23:07:15 <fizzie> Heh, there's a difference.
23:07:39 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(::**)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^(x)~^S
23:07:50 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(::::::******)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^(x)~^S
23:07:55 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(:::::*****)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^(x)~^S
23:07:56 <AnMaster> ais523|mibbit, ... "guild council"?
23:08:05 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(:::::*****)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S
23:08:14 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(::::::******)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S
23:08:19 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(:::::::*******)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S
23:08:31 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(::::::::********)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S
23:08:38 <AnMaster> ^ul (::::::******)(::::::::********)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S
23:08:45 <ais523|mibbit> AnMaster: sort of like Parliament, but for a University, not a country
23:08:53 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(:::::::::*********)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S
23:09:00 <ais523|mibbit> we decide what the university's student's should be campaigning for
23:09:06 <oklopol> +ul (a)(::::::******)(:::::::::*********)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S
23:09:16 <oklopol> +ul (a)(b)(::::::******)(::::::::::**********)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S
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23:09:35 <AnMaster> ais523|mibbit, I think that may be an error "<thutubot> ...a out of stack!"?
23:09:41 <oklopol> okily. so subtraction isn't exactly well-defined for negatives.
23:10:14 <AnMaster> ais523|mibbit, how comes fungot handled it?
23:10:16 <fizzie> It's not very clear that 'a' is an instruction in this case, though.
23:10:25 <ais523|mibbit> AnMaster: because its Underload program is written in BF
23:10:37 <fungot> AnMaster: should this be reverted, because you can't read their mind. it is
23:11:08 <fungot> ais523|mibbit: potential references to use for citations. --special:contributions/ 131.216.41.16131.216.41.16 ( user talk:131.216.41.16talk) 19:26, 8 july 2006 ( utc
23:11:23 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/src/bef$ echo 'aS' | ~/inst/rcfunge/rcfunge/funge -q underload.b98
23:11:30 <fizzie> The Funge-98 version will error out.
23:11:34 <AnMaster> ais523, so thutubot is "fail-fast" while fungot is "fail-ignore"?
23:11:35 <fungot> AnMaster: the constant use of " coup" here is simply incorrect. first uncertainty can be incorporated into the section on company officers, but it states there that the ep peaked at 2 ' ' fnord
23:11:37 <fizzie> When/if I get it integrated.
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23:12:09 <oklopol> +ul (a)(b)(::::::******)((!)~^^)^S
23:12:09 <ais523|mibbit> it seems that the BF version has an infinite number of empty strings at the bottom of the stack
23:12:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, using { it is easy to integrate
23:12:28 <oklopol> +ul (a)(b)(::::::******)((!)~^)^S
23:12:44 <oklopol> +ul (a)(b)(::::::******)((~)~^^)^S
23:12:48 <oklopol> +ul (a)(b)(:::::::*******)((~)~^^)^S
23:12:52 <oklopol> +ul (a)(b)(::::::::********)((~)~^^)^S
23:12:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: It still needs to store the program somewhere; and currently the program storage format is a bit hardcoded to the brainfuck bytecode, expects all programs to consist of two-cell pair elements and so on.
23:13:17 <ais523|mibbit> that's really quite clever, and utterly different from the way I did divide-by-10
23:13:22 <oklopol> that's where i'm trying to head, but that's just modulo...
23:13:41 <fizzie> Still, shouldn't be too difficult; there's already a "language id" number stored with the program, I just need to add a branching on columns 5 and 6 for that, and fix the things that deal with programs a bit.
23:13:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm? Just store the underload stuff somewhere else?
23:13:46 <oklopol> my idea was, to get, using that, the parity bit, so i can subtract it, and do safe division; or something.
23:13:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, like 50 cells away or whatever
23:14:05 <ais523|mibbit> you would need to store something in the program each time round
23:14:05 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't want to have to have two completely different lists to check for "^foo".
23:14:25 <fizzie> (As well as two completely different lists to store to the state file and list with ^show and so on.)
23:14:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, maybe you could compile them to befunge? :D
23:15:10 <AnMaster> I believe threaded code would be awfully slow
23:15:25 <fizzie> I think I'll just store the program string (there where the brainfuck version converts to bytecode); it's just that the state-file saving and such need to be fixed to understand that.
23:15:44 <oklopol> +ul (::::::::********)(:((this)S)~((that)S)~(~)~^^^!)^S
23:15:48 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::*********)(:((this)S)~((that)S)~(~)~^^^!)^S
23:16:48 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::*********)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^S
23:16:48 <fizzie> Fortuitously the number "0" never appears in the brainfuck bytecode (except as the terminating instruction) so I can just make it deal with programs as arbitrary zero-terminated lists of cells. (Even though the brainfuck bytecode "really" is pairs of (operation, argument) values.)
23:16:54 <ais523|mibbit> AnMaster: it's Underload, it's not that bad once you're used to it
23:16:59 <ehird> http://upsilon.cc/~zack/blog/posts/2008/10/from_Vim_to_Emacs_-_part_1/ LOL :D Debian vim maintainer switches to emacs
23:17:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh btw for state file saving, if you ever use i and/or o be aware of that cfunge reads stuff as unsigned char
23:17:10 <ais523|mibbit> except in Mibbit because it keeps replacing bits of code with smileys
23:17:15 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::*********)(:(~~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^S
23:18:40 <fizzie> I think I'll stick to FILE's G/P for the state file, it's so easy to use even if it's a bit inefficient.
23:19:20 <ehird> unikitten is still the ultimate 2d language
23:19:33 <oklopol> +ul (:::***)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S
23:19:41 <fizzie> And in the language model (which I'm reading with FILE's R) I just use only byte values [0, 127] in order to not get into problems with that.
23:19:49 <oerjan> +ul ((:^S~aSS)(+ul )):^S~aSS
23:19:51 <oklopol> ...could someone find decrement in that? :P
23:19:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, as for GP I don't remember how they are supposed to read but probably char or unsigned char
23:20:19 <oklopol> +ul (:::***)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)^S
23:20:22 <fizzie> I just store decimal integers, one per line, so I don't really care. :p
23:20:28 <AnMaster> if the spec doesn't say otherwise it should be unsigned in cfunge, if it is still signed be sure to mention it
23:20:45 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::*********)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^S
23:20:52 <oklopol> +ul (::::::::::**********)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^S
23:20:58 <fizzie> (Except that the ^def command names are there as plaintext...)
23:21:01 <oklopol> +ul (::::::::::**********)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^(x)~^S
23:21:04 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::::***********)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^(x)~^S
23:21:08 <oklopol> +ul (::::::::::::************)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^(x)~^S
23:21:12 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::::::*************)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^(x)~^S
23:21:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, so all below 128 in other words?
23:21:37 <AnMaster> that is probably the only portable way
23:21:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, also I don't know if cfunge truncates or wraps larger integer
23:22:08 <AnMaster> ie, if 278 ends up as 255 or some low number
23:22:35 <AnMaster> possibly it may vary between different instructions
23:24:56 <oklopol> the rest, it is not trivial.
23:25:04 <oklopol> it's as hard as the beginning was.
23:29:48 <oerjan> +ul ((:^SaS:aS^!S)(+ul ))((:^SaS:aS^!S)(*ul )):^SaS:aS^!S
23:29:48 <thutubot> *ul (:^SaS:aS^!S)((:^SaS:aS^!S)(*ul )):^SaS:aS^!S
23:31:55 <oerjan> +ul ((:^S!aS:aS^!S)(+ul ))((:^S!aS:aS^!S)(*ul )):^S!aS:aS^!S
23:31:55 <thutubot> *ul ((:^S!aS:aS^!S)(*ul ))((:^S!aS:aS^!S)(+ul )):^S!aS:aS^!S
23:32:11 <AnMaster> ehird, oh I just sent to a few friends who use vim
23:32:40 <ehird> Good to know you're caught up in the childish editor wars.
23:32:52 <oerjan> ^ul ((:^S!aS:aS^!S)(+ul ))((:^S!aS:aS^!S)(*ul )):^S!aS:aS^!S
23:34:14 <oerjan> was probably for the best
23:34:42 <oerjan> that fungot couldn't run my program
23:34:42 <fungot> oerjan: this article was automatically assessed because at least one reliable source that says that latin is a timeless language. it is
23:35:17 <oerjan> because then someone might want to test it properly...
23:35:49 <fungot> ais523|mibbit: please go to fnord image description page and edit it to include a wikipedia:fair use rationale guidelineexplanation or rationale as to why its use in ' ' '
23:36:12 <ais523|mibbit> fungot: you seem to be confused by the markup for bold
23:36:12 <fungot> ais523|mibbit: the 4wp car is mine, no it is not the case.
23:36:24 <oerjan> oh right, it's the wp pages
23:36:29 -!- ais523|mibbit has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
23:36:58 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::::::*************)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)^S
23:36:59 <thutubot> ::::::::::::::!!()()**************
23:40:00 <AnMaster> actually a better idea would be fungot <-> thutubot loop
23:40:01 <fungot> AnMaster: and then who knows, dr spooner may prove right in the end... fnord 02:25, 15 oct 2004 ( utc)
23:40:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, you probably want to avoid loops with thutubot
23:40:36 <oklopol> +ul (:::::*****)((:)~*(*)*)^(x)~^S
23:40:37 <AnMaster> with ul that would be possible
23:40:58 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::::::*************)(::(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^:*~((:)~*(*)*)~^~*^)^S
23:41:10 <oerjan> AnMaster: er i did just that a bit above?
23:42:02 <oerjan> except that fungot couldn't run the program through because it was too complicated
23:42:03 <fungot> oerjan: what about all the other controversial statements basically summarise what he says, dec. 25, 1989, friday jerusalem post
23:42:25 <fizzie> Didn't we already have one fungot-thutubot loop.
23:42:25 <fungot> fizzie: this article was automatically assessed because at least one tank fnord as a subspecies of the black on white violence. clear, unedited and in no way constitute a " massive attack on free speech" but aiming to insult and defame holocaust victims and fnord and their meanings. i don't think anybody calls it the " power stroke"
23:42:54 <oerjan> yeah but i wanted to try a loop with both in underload
23:43:11 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::::::*************)(::((:)~*(*)*)~^:*~(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^~*^)^S
23:43:12 <thutubot> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::!!()()*****************************
23:43:18 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::::::*************)(::((:)~*(*)*)~^:*~(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^~*^)^(x)~^S
23:43:33 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::::::*************)(x)~^S
23:43:42 <oklopol> well that's one complicated multiplication.
23:43:50 <oklopol> that was *not* what i was trying to do.