2008-10-01: 00:01:43 hi ais523 00:06:27 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 00:07:47 -!- oc2k1 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:17:18 -!- oc2k1 has joined. 00:18:19 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 00:32:13 -!- MisterN has joined. 00:35:00 ,[.,] 00:38:16 +[,.] 00:38:54 PLEASE COME FROM ##brainfuck :D 00:47:51 -!- MisterN has quit ("Verlassend"). 01:50:02 KDE 4 is fucking awesome. 02:09:40 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:17:34 -!- GregorR has joined. 02:59:50 -!- puzzlet has quit ("leaving"). 03:34:42 -!- GregorR_ has joined. 03:34:52 -!- GregorR has quit (Nick collision from services.). 03:34:58 -!- GregorR_ has changed nick to GregorR. 03:48:16 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | of course. 05:04:05 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:05:21 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:15:20 -!- GregorR has joined. 06:09:37 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 104 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11:01:18 -!- oc2k1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:21:53 -!- oklopod has joined. 11:25:40 -!- oklopol has joined. 11:25:40 -!- oklopod has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:28:52 -!- oklopod has joined. 11:36:23 -!- oklopod has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:36:28 -!- oklopod has joined. 11:39:32 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:39:37 -!- puzzlet has joined. 11:47:47 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:00:38 ais523, hi 12:07:44 AnMaster: he's not here. 12:08:17 tusho: make optbot put whether ais523 is here on the topic. 12:08:18 oklopod: but that should be the code for a bot that tries to keep in the middle of a platform 12:08:23 oklopod: lol :-) 12:08:26 it's called /w ais523 12:08:42 er 12:08:42 who 12:08:50 /who ais523 12:08:56 352: #esoteric n=ais523 eso-std.org irc.freenode.net ais523 G 0 (this is obviously not my real name) 12:09:18 that was from an explanation about ob 12:09:23 what optbot said 12:09:23 oklopod: when I was young and naive I thought i'd be able to get syntax-error.com 12:09:28 that was you 12:09:32 optbot: more 12:09:32 oklopod: by the way, 12:09:38 this one i have no idea about 12:09:48 optbot: more 12:09:49 oklopod: having said that, there are occasions when people deserve to be stabbed in the face 12:09:54 pikhq? 12:09:56 optbot: more 12:09:57 oklopod: I think so 12:10:05 oh, so it was pikhq 12:10:07 optbot: more 12:10:07 oklopod: Because if he spends money registering the domain, it's money that won't go to the poor! 12:10:19 i haven't seen this one 12:10:22 hmmhmm 12:10:42 -!- Hiato has joined. 12:10:53 i can always grep for you guys btw. 12:11:04 i can python-grep too 12:11:14 although not from the earliest / newest ones 12:11:18 but that's a minority 12:11:29 you can *check* by grepping if you *feel* like it 12:11:39 oklopod: by the way, how do you like bayesian spam filters. 12:11:55 i haven't used them, just simpler statistical methods 12:12:05 i don't know anything about bayesian networks 12:12:08 oklopod: but are they neat 12:12:17 in a 'probably neat but i don't know anything about them' way 12:12:30 if you're asking about my opinion about their usage, or how much use they are, then i don't have an opinion really 12:12:44 oklopod: more about how awesome they are actually 12:13:02 all networks are, by default, awesome, as they are graphs 12:13:08 oklopod: good 12:13:31 a book about bayesian networks is on my read-list, or actually two 12:13:31 because me and comex have written and are writing a program that uses bayesian spam filtering in python 12:13:34 to be cheap ai 12:13:36 :D 12:13:41 but course books have a higher priority 12:13:44 It votes on Agoran proposals. 12:13:50 and i still have a few books to go 12:13:55 First, it was fed a backlog of the proposal results 2006-present. 12:14:01 If a proposal passed, it was fed as not spam. 12:14:06 if it failed, it was fed as spam. 12:14:15 :D 12:14:17 Then, it votes AGAINST new proposals that act like spam. 12:14:22 and FOR other ones 12:14:31 lol @ the geniosity 12:14:40 i like that 12:14:48 :D 12:14:48 are you writing the actual bayesian network part? 12:14:54 or just using some lib or smth 12:15:01 oklopod: just using a lib i'm afraid, but its probably for the best 12:15:07 i mean, its designed for spam filtering 12:15:13 it's gonna be better at it than a one-day hack... 12:15:27 for the best maybe, but it's against my nonsensical principles. :P 12:15:28 funnily enough, on a recent batch we tested it on, it voted exactly the same as me on 3 proposals 12:15:33 out of 4 proposals in the pool 12:15:44 haha 12:15:53 (the one it voted AGAINST that I voted FOR was probably because it was quite a big thing and probably had a lot of loopholes but I kinda liked the idea so i voted for it) 12:15:57 well 3/4 isn't really that impressive 12:16:01 oklopod: no 12:16:04 but how about these statistics: 12:16:28 try adding half of the proposals, and testing the rest 12:16:30 well 12:16:33 oklopod: nonono 12:16:36 watch: 12:16:37 nonono? 12:16:40 okay. 12:17:16 oklopod: I made it vote on every proposal that we trained it on and then measured how many times it voted 'right' 12:17:21 (FOR when it passed AGAINST when it failed 12:17:25 928/1066 12:17:25 FOR: 448/581 12:17:26 AGAINST: 464/469 12:17:26 PRESENT: 16 12:17:35 comex's initial version was closer to the status quo, BUT 12:17:40 his tracked author names 12:17:41 because 12:17:44 certain proposers 12:17:47 rarely ever get proposals passed 12:17:48 you tested it on ones that it was fed? 12:17:53 his tried to vote on whether it would passed 12:17:57 mine votes on whether it's a good proposal 12:18:00 oklopod: yeah 12:18:09 bayesian spam filtering doesn't actually retain the original test 12:18:13 well, don't, then give me the results 12:18:13 so its not as trivial as it seems.. 12:18:14 *text 12:18:25 oklopod: those are the only proposals i can get a hold off 12:18:26 *of 12:18:35 dunno where I can get pre-2006 archives 12:18:35 half in, then check half 12:18:35 :-P 12:18:38 oklopod: alright 12:19:08 tusho: You can easily do leave-one-out cross-validation. Train it on all but one, then test on that one. Repeat for every proposal. That's a lot of computing systems, so your machines won't feel all unnecessary. 12:19:18 oklopod: less impressive - 12:19:18 798/1066 12:19:19 FOR: 379/578 12:19:19 AGAINST: 294/363 12:19:19 PRESENT: 125 12:19:20 Er, s/systems/cycles/ 12:19:23 however 12:19:26 that's because 12:19:31 the game changed a lot around half way through 12:19:31 so 12:19:36 it wasn't used to the new kinds of proposals 12:19:41 after the series of revamps 12:19:45 still 12:19:48 not bad performance, I'd say 12:19:50 plus 12:19:50 did you insert in order? 12:19:53 oklopod: yea 12:19:56 try what fizzie said 12:20:01 oklopod: no, that'd take years 12:20:11 try first, then insert it, then test next, then insert it 12:20:17 alright 12:20:19 etc. 12:20:22 um 12:20:26 but they're two different scripts 12:20:27 :D 12:20:28 this will kinda do what fizzie said, but i guess a bit faster. 12:20:28 * tusho mangles 12:20:43 also it will be more sensical, as bayesian networks adapt 12:20:44 Leave-one-out will take at most 1066 times longer than your original test, and it doesn't sound like it takes a long time right now. 12:21:04 so chronological + testing the one after input in chronological order should work the best 12:21:50 fizzie: the feeding takes about a second 12:21:54 and the test takes about a second 12:22:02 2132 seconds. 12:22:12 thats an hour 12:22:13 :-P 12:22:16 Not a year. :p 12:22:21 oklopod: 12:22:21 628/1066 12:22:22 FOR: 321/627 12:22:22 AGAINST: 285/417 12:22:22 PRESENT: 22 12:22:25 (And the test will be a lot faster since it has only one proposal to test.) 12:22:32 ofc, remember, it isn't AIMING to get it right 12:22:39 since proposals fail for non-bad-proposal reasons 12:22:43 e.g. grudges, bribery, whatever 12:22:53 For the "test it before inserting" you might want to start testing only after you've fed something like half of the proposals. 12:23:00 fizzie: Yeah, ok. 12:23:01 It's not likely the untrained system will do very well. 12:23:01 yes 12:23:06 was just gonna say that 12:23:44 well i was actually gonna say emphasize gradually more as input size grows, and give the percentage, which is the same thing, but more complicated and more useless 12:24:14 yikes: 12:24:14 321/1066 12:24:14 FOR: 121/294 12:24:15 AGAINST: 190/229 12:24:15 PRESENT: 10 12:24:18 not very good 12:24:19 hmm 12:24:21 i think i did that wrong 12:24:38 :o 12:24:45 oklopod: oh well, the point is 12:24:48 i also tested it on a batch of like 12:24:50 10 recent proposals 12:24:55 and it voted very, very reasonably 12:25:06 didn't really take any risks, and voted against obviously bad stuff 12:25:13 but voted for fixes and such 12:25:15 so 12:25:19 had it been fed those as inputs..? 12:25:19 in its actual real world environment 12:25:20 it is good 12:25:22 oklopod: yes 12:25:26 :D 12:25:30 no 12:25:30 no 12:25:31 well that's simply not right 12:25:32 it hadn't 12:25:32 i meant 12:25:33 the 2006 12:25:35 to present 12:25:36 duh 12:25:38 ah 12:25:38 not including them 12:25:39 no 12:25:40 it hadn't 12:25:43 well okay. 12:25:45 so 12:25:48 had it now?!? 12:25:49 had 12:25:50 it 12:25:50 now? 12:25:51 even if it doesn't do too well statistically 12:25:51 what 12:25:52 ? 12:25:54 had it? 12:25:56 oklopod: nO 12:25:57 i guess not. 12:25:58 it hadn't 12:26:02 hadn't? 12:26:03 it had not been fed the proposals that it voted on 12:26:08 it had been fed the archives, however 12:26:14 and that is the conditions in which it will be run in the wild 12:26:16 for new proposals 12:26:19 as it's the best it can do 12:26:20 anyway 12:26:22 in that environment 12:26:28 it functioned well as a reasonable mechanical voting machine. 12:26:32 Re classification, given the ~300 authors with >10 English books in the Gutenberg project, our very silly SOM-based classifier (using _very silly_ feature representation for books) can already correctly guess the author for >40% of incoming books. Conclusion: writers just keep repeating themselves all the time. 12:26:46 haha 12:26:52 i bet i could make this detect author 12:26:55 but i won't 12:26:56 (guess) 12:28:08 fizzie: btw 12:28:12 i just actually timed it and etc 12:28:14 Also: the same system is pretty good (average in-class accuracy 70-80 %, even though the training data is horribly biased) at guessing the gender of the author. 12:28:15 it'd take 0.96 hours 12:28:17 to do your thing 12:29:10 It would take 25 days of computing-time to do actual leave-one-out cross-validation for our Gutenberg data-set. :p 12:29:30 (Which is one of the reasons why we're not using it either.) 12:29:34 fizzie: what on earth is it doing?! :-) 12:29:39 i mean 12:29:40 whats it for 12:30:01 fizzie: now the question is, how silly is it? 12:30:05 Coursework, for the... what's the course again? I forget. It's 1.5 years past the returning deadline anyway. :p 12:30:21 fizzie: ouch :D 12:30:39 (Because the deadline was a "soft" one; the lecturer said that "you can return it any time you like, but you won't get your course grade before you do".) 12:30:47 fizzie: would it be able to vote on agoran proposals? 12:31:39 Probably not well, but theoretically speaking, yes. But the feature representation is all just simple statistics (sentence lengths, use of pronouns, etc.) and does not look at the content words at all. 12:31:48 Ahh. 12:32:19 So if you want nonsensical decisions, sure. 12:33:01 Of course with the SOM-based approach you get nifty visualizations, and sort-of proposal clustering, "for free". 12:35:03 I think we selected our classifier because with all the pictures of the SOM maps in the report, there's no need to write much actual text for it. :p 12:35:43 yeah you can't write that much in 1,5 years 12:36:01 Work on the project has been... sporadic. 12:36:45 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:37:13 sporadic... like, spore-adic, cuz it took 1,5 years 12:37:14 i see i see 12:37:32 -!- Hiato1 has joined. 12:37:35 fizzie: perhaps you know - you know how ssh makes you enter your pwd at a terminal? 12:37:39 SVN revision 1 has a timestamp of 2007-02-06 02:01:56 +0200. 12:37:45 well, bayes has one password on eso-std.org and its long and i dont wanna type it to login 12:37:46 so 12:37:50 i'm trying to make a shell script 12:37:52 that runs ssh 12:37:54 but gives it the password 12:37:58 via the command line 12:38:01 i.e. from the script 12:38:08 (that only people who can log in as bayes anyway can see) 12:38:47 I think the more recommended approach would be to generate a RSA (or DSA) key with no passphrase -- in a file that only those people can read -- and add that in authorized_keys of the remote side. 12:38:54 [bayes = the bot btw] 12:39:02 fizzie: yeah but...fffffffff 12:39:41 Well, you can use the SSH_ASKPASS environment variable. 12:39:47 http://www.google.com/search2001.html google's index in 2001 12:41:16 I'm not sure how to force it to use SSH_ASKPASS except by doing "ssh ... fizzie: anyway, if i do the ssh key thing how would I tell ssh what key to use...? 12:42:04 ssh -i path/to/keyfile 12:43:16 fizzie: But I'm using git, I can't give ssh arguments 12:43:16 :P 12:43:25 -!- oklopod has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:43:40 -!- oklopod has joined. 12:44:10 I'm sure there's some way to specify arguments, since even rsync lets you specify the shell used. 12:44:46 fizzie: nope. 12:45:06 -!- Hiato1 has quit ("Leaving."). 12:45:49 Well, if you don't mind always using that key, you can stick into your ~/.ssh/config something like "Host remote_side\n IdentityFile /path/to/key" 12:46:26 [[don't mind always using that key]] 12:46:27 I do. 12:46:38 Can I set it to only use that key for that user? 12:46:39 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 12:46:40 That would be OK. 12:46:49 -!- jix has joined. 12:47:24 Not in ~/.ssh/config, that can only specify per-host preferences. :/ 12:47:51 Stupid ssh. 12:48:29 http://git.or.cz/gitwiki/GitTips#head-09f587b7791b46d995947704f9ddc4958dff54c3 12:48:43 Ugly but.. well, just ugly. 12:49:06 There's the "fake hostnames" solution you might want to use. 12:50:12 Didn't remember that ssh_config lets you actually override the host to connect to. Should have, since I use it myself for shortcuts like "ssh james" doing "ssh james.hut.fi" even though hut.fi's not in my normal DNS suffix list at home. 13:05:52 If I want to learn scheme, what interpreter/compiler would you recommend? Gentoo seems to provide several. 13:06:18 for some reason it seems guile is already installed, I got no idea why 13:08:08 -!- Mony has joined. 13:08:10 I think at least some programs use Guile to provide their Scheme scripting-thing. 13:08:28 plop 13:08:31 how about installing them all, then interpreting everything in all of them, taking the md5's of results, taking the arithmetical average of those results, finding the plaintext for it, and showing that as the result 13:08:39 fizzie, well it seems to have an akward prompt, no readline editing. 13:08:44 for the REPL 13:09:46 MzScheme is a popular one, and I think nowadays it uses libreadline for the terminal thing. 13:09:59 (DrScheme is the related GUI nonsense, I didn't like that at all.) 13:10:01 ah thanks to google I found out how to get readline in guile 13:10:07 seems to work ok 13:10:24 just had to put some lines into ~/.guile 13:11:05 http://community.schemewiki.org/?category-implementations probably has reasonably good descriptions. 13:11:07 fizzie, mzscheme doesn't exist in the gentoo package collection, so unless I have a good reason I prefer the lazy way ;) 13:12:43 AnMaster: It's probably under the 'drscheme' package. 13:12:58 ah yes Description: DrScheme programming environment. Includes mzscheme. 13:13:33 It's all part of "PLT-Scheme"; DrScheme is the IDE, MzScheme is the command-line/terminal parts. Given how gentoo is, there's probably some sort of USE flag that lets you get rid of drscheme. :p 13:14:02 fizzie, there is yes 13:14:02 Calculating dependencies... done! 13:14:02 [ebuild N ] dev-scheme/drscheme-4.1 USE="X cairo opengl -backtrace -cgc -llvm -profile" 14,559 kB 13:14:14 just need to figure out what they mean for this specific ebuild 13:14:17 not always very clear 13:14:47 for example you could interpret X as meaning general X bindings for the programming language 13:15:26 Back when I used mzscheme it was still around version 352; apparently they've graduated to something like 4.1 now and even changed the numbering scheme. 13:15:38 * dev-scheme/drscheme 13:15:38 Available versions: ~0.372-r1 ~4.0.1 ~4.0.2 4.1 [M]360-r1 [M]~360-r2 [M]~360-r3 [M]~370.6_p20070725 [M]~370.6_p20070725-r1 [M]~371 [M]~372 [M]~372-r1 {3m X backtrace cairo cgc jpeg llvm opengl perl png profile xft xrender} 13:15:39 well 13:15:59 I guess they masked them to make upgrading work 13:16:05 [M] means masked 13:16:21 Chicken and Scheme48 are other reasonably popular ones. 13:16:32 fizzie, but guile isn't that good? 13:17:31 That's the feeling I have, but I haven't really used it. It seems to be a bit more "Scheme as a scripting language" than "Scheme as a general-purpose programming language" implementation. 13:17:38 AnMaster: Use drscheme. 13:17:40 aka mzscheme 13:17:41 hm 13:17:44 Install drscheme. 13:17:45 Srsly. 13:17:46 will try it :) 13:17:48 And use its IDE. 13:17:56 Emacs is the best long-term solution 13:17:58 but for a quick setup 13:18:03 tusho, why? I don't run X currently 13:18:03 DrScheme's IDE is set up wonderfully 13:18:07 even with emacs keybindings 13:18:09 ;P 13:18:11 AnMaster: well, that might be a problem :-P 13:18:16 but it's a very good way to start coding scheme 13:18:44 The IDE, or the X11 side of it at least, wasn't very nice back in the early 300-series, but that's pretty ancient information now. 13:19:00 fizzie: Yeah that's not very up to date :-P 13:19:06 There seemed to be quite many Scheme48 devotees on freenode/#scheme back when I idled there. 13:19:17 Scheme48 is... kind of lame. 13:19:26 And Chicken developers hung around there too. 13:19:34 Anyway, even if you can't use DrScheme because of X lacking or whatever, MzScheme (its underlying implementation) is exemplary. 13:19:41 chicken developers ? 13:19:41 Unlike just about every other scheme, it has comprehensive and well designed libraries. 13:19:48 Mony: chicken is a scheme impl 13:20:09 $(use_enable X mred) <-- so useflag X meas --enable-mred will be passed to the configure... 13:20:09 and in french ? :D 13:20:09 huh 13:20:14 that makes no sense 13:20:22 AnMaster: MrEd is the mzscheme gui lib 13:20:27 ah 13:20:33 not m red then. 13:20:34 heh 13:20:36 no :-P 13:21:08 My main (irrational) dislike of MzScheme stems from the fact that HtDP, which I really didn't like, used MzScheme-isms instead of standard R5RS stuff for no discernible reason. 13:21:55 HtDP is kinda crap yea 13:21:58 Still, the PLT set of libraries is very good indeed. 13:22:07 Lemme find that _awesome_ tutorial I found a while back 13:22:13 Sec. 13:22:27 HtDP? 13:22:34 AnMaster: How to Design Programs. 13:22:34 AnMaster: How to Design Programs, a book. 13:22:35 It sucks. 13:22:37 ah 13:22:45 AnMaster: Here, lemme give you a good tutorial: 13:22:51 tusho, scip 13:22:54 htdp.org has full text, but don't bother. 13:22:57 use the online version of it 13:22:57 AnMaster: No. :-P 13:23:00 tusho, no? 13:23:02 SICP is a good book. 13:23:04 yes 13:23:11 But it won't help you learn Scheme as a programming language for doing things in. 13:23:25 SICP's only relation to scheme is that it happens to be a good language for what it does. 13:23:40 hm... 13:23:41 AnMaster: here 13:23:41 http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme.html 13:23:47 Teach Yourself Scheme in Fixnum Days 13:23:51 Hah, good old Fixnum Days. 13:24:05 Mentioned in the course material listing for our Scheme course. 13:24:11 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 13:24:23 Was about to suggest the same thing but decided to wait to see if it's the same. 13:24:30 hm the design of the "page turner" is the same as for the online scip 13:24:32 interesting 13:24:38 yes 13:24:45 same converter 13:24:48 ah 13:24:48 http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/tex2page/tex2page-doc.html 13:24:58 the R5R* standards for scheme use it too 13:25:10 tusho, stop breaking my conspiration(sp?) theories! 13:25:12 ;P 13:25:17 AnMaster: Constipation theories! 13:25:34 tusho: R*RS instead of R5R*, maybe? :p 13:25:45 fizzie: Shut up. :-P 13:25:47 tusho, no don't think that is right.... 13:25:51 "Revised^5 Report on the Algorithmic Language *" 13:25:52 R6RS is not Scheme! :< 13:26:04 AnMaster: No it's definitely constipation theories. 13:26:13 Definitions of Constipation on the Web: 13:26:13 * Bowel movements are infrequent or incomplete. 13:26:14 AnMaster: I'm telling you this for prosteriority. 13:26:15 no... 13:26:53 konspiration in Swedish... so I guess it should be conspirator theories or something? 13:27:07 conspiracy theories? 13:27:30 "Cons-piracy", how Scheme-ish. 13:27:36 hah 13:27:43 -!- GregorR has joined. 13:28:11 btw that mzscheme seems to take ages to compile 13:28:28 perhaps it does, that's why source-based distros are stupid 13:28:34 It has that one compilation-optimilization step that takes quite a long time. 13:29:10 I think it is more due to that download haven't finished yet in fact... 13:29:11 sigh 13:29:39 and that is very odd, since usually I get better speed than this 13:29:45 Aw, mzscheme doesn't define the /c([ad]+)r/ functions for cases where length($1)>4. :/ 13:30:03 fizzie: The spec doesn't require it to. 13:30:08 R5RS just defines those functions. 13:30:22 Sure, but it doesn't forbid it either. 13:31:46 0/1/inf 13:33:14 doesn't everything have a return value in scheme? At least the REPL doesn't print out what (if anything) (define x 3) returns 13:34:33 AnMaster: (define x 3) returns an unspecified value 13:34:38 It has an unspecified value, yes. 13:34:42 Which has a representation of the null string. 13:34:48 There's a way to make it print as #, iirc. 13:34:54 aha 13:35:00 also 13:35:02 BAYES WORKS!!! 13:35:03 :DDDDDDDDDDDD 13:35:22 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:35:45 From: Bayes 13:35:45 To: agora-business@agoranomic.org 13:35:45 Subject: BUS: Bayes voting 13:35:45 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 12:32:14 +0000 (UTC) 13:35:46 Bayes votes as follows: 13:35:46 5732 FORx2 13:35:47 5733 AGAINSTx2 13:35:47 Yes, actually it might be more correct to say that (in MzScheme) it has the representation #, and the REPL doesn't print it. 13:35:49 -- 13:35:51 bayes 2008-10-01 13:10:18 +0100 13:36:14 (The timestamp is the version btw.) 13:37:06 (display (set! x 42)) prints "#", after all. 13:37:08 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:38:16 tusho: Weren't you a Django person? Is it any good? 13:38:20 So. 199 lines of code (+ 56 but that's just the script I used to take a look at how it votes) just voted on two agoran proposals as a partnership. 13:38:27 fizzie: Yes, Django is good. 13:38:34 fizzie: Don't read djangobook.com, it's outdated. 13:38:37 It seemed good to me, but I've been wrong before. 13:38:40 fizzie: Try the official site's tutorial for a starter. 13:39:00 Yes, that's what I've been reading, as well as links from it. So far it has seemed nice. 13:39:53 The automagically generated "admin" thing sounds rather gimmicky, but can't deny the usefulness of it. Of course this is not the right place to talk about useful things. 13:40:05 fizzie: it sounds gimmicky but it's actually useful. 13:40:13 ofc, you have to use the admin models to get it to work nicely 13:40:19 but that's less work than recoding a whole admin interface again 13:40:26 Also, its built in authentication framework is good. 13:40:28 Use it. :-P 13:40:39 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:40:47 I had troubles using it first - Not Invented Here and all that 13:40:52 but when I decided to try it it's actually really good 13:41:11 (Save this link for later if you end up wanting to try the auth system: http://www.b-list.org/weblog/2006/jun/06/django-tips-extending-user-model/) 13:42:56 Actually I came across that one already. Yes, I think I'll try it. Usually I tend to reinvent everything, but so far the existing things have seemed to be much like what I would have written myself, except with more features that don't really hurt. 13:44:52 fizzie: That's the problem with avoiding NIH - the stuff that you use has to fit your mental model. The other option is having a non-opinionated framework that lets you tweak it to how you want, but that's often more effort for you than just reinventing it, and also is way more effort for the framework writer. 13:44:54 http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme-Z-H-4.html <-- that got an issue, it mentions expt, but not what expt is.... 13:45:05 seems like it is an odd name for pow() in many other languages 13:45:41 AnMaster: expt = exponential 13:45:43 so yes 13:45:52 right. Explains the name 13:46:02 I was wondering what problem you had with it but then realised you probably don't know english mathematical terminology's abbreviations :-P 13:46:19 tusho, indeed I don't. 13:46:54 Some slack may be cut for it since the context -- "+, -, *, /, expt" -- gives a strong cue. 13:47:18 (define (^ x y) (expt x y)) <-- no idea if that is a good idea, but seems to work, in guile, still waiting for mzscheme to finish building 13:47:42 You can just (define ^ expt) if you like. 13:47:48 fizzie, interesting 13:48:08 AnMaster: You don't wanna do that. 13:48:09 :-P 13:48:09 Also 13:48:12 Guile is the worst thing you could use 13:48:19 It doesn't nearly come close to obeying R5Rs.. 13:48:21 *R5RS 13:48:29 tusho, yes it just happened to be installing, and I'm waiting for drscheme to install 13:48:33 :P 13:48:34 installed* 13:48:37 in the first case 13:48:48 setup-plt: making: scribblings/quick/images 13:48:48 setup-plt: making: scribblings/reference 13:48:48 setup-plt: in scribblings/reference 13:48:49 AnMaster: Anyway, generally, trying to get a language to act like another for familiarity (e.g. that ^ trick) will just hamper your learning of it. 13:48:54 is how far the compiling got 13:49:04 #define being { 13:49:07 #define end } 13:49:08 ;) 13:49:13 no I don't claim it is a good idea 13:49:14 AnMaster: BEING 13:49:15 :D 13:49:24 tusho, it's psacl 13:49:28 obviously 13:49:39 Piss ACL? 13:49:40 actually could be psacal even 13:49:44 Is that like a really bad accessing control list? 13:49:46 BEING ... NED 13:49:48 *access 13:50:07 tusho, I think it is virulent bda spleeing 13:52:05 #define procedure void 13:52:20 #define function /**/ 13:52:22 wait hm 13:52:26 I forgot pascal syntax 13:52:31 for return type 13:52:38 well no great loss there. 13:54:44 :D 13:55:12 is there anyone who *don't* dislike pascal? 13:55:37 apart from Borland I mean 13:56:01 *doesn't 13:56:01 and yeah 13:56:01 Niklaus Wirth. 13:56:25 oh yes the author of the language 13:56:26 true 13:56:34 Pascal isn't _bad_, anyway. 13:56:36 Just obsolete. 13:56:53 well yeah, Delphi however is bad 13:57:04 yes 13:57:07 since it is pascal with object orientation bolted on in a horrible way 13:57:15 Delphi for .NET is *even* worse 13:57:17 and yes it exists 13:57:37 If you ever see the words "OOP", "bolted" and "on" in the same sentence, run the hell away. 13:57:54 That includes C++. 13:58:45 hm interesting both python and guile fail seriously under valgrind 13:58:54 perl pass it just fine 13:59:02 tusho, and yes I agree about C++ 13:59:12 nothing wrong with OOP, if it is done correctly IMO 13:59:26 Oh, and the same goes for Java. 13:59:35 There are some actual Java usecases, but it's not a good language. 13:59:46 tusho, what about objc? 14:00:14 AnMaster: Obj-C sidesteps the issue by not integrating its OOP at all. 14:00:20 It has two halfs: a C half and a Smalltalky half. 14:00:23 And you can mingle them. 14:00:37 Sure, it's a bit glaring, but it doesn't involve any ugly sticky-tape. 14:00:38 tusho, what? mix one bit from each? 14:00:39 ?! 14:00:47 AnMaster: what 14:00:50 tusho, mingle 14:00:57 oh 14:00:58 :-p 14:00:59 abababa 14:01:00 you know 14:01:03 yes 14:01:33 thankfully I guess no one tried to mix intercal with c and smalltalk, Yes I know about CLC's lectures... 14:02:41 setup-plt: rendering: xml/xml.scrbl 14:02:41 setup-plt: re-rendering: compiler/cffi.scrbl 14:02:50 mzscheme really got a weird build process 14:03:01 AnMaster: That's why people don't build it manually... 14:03:02 I think it is generating documentation or something 14:03:16 ah yes 14:03:16 setup-plt: --- building documentation --- 14:03:53 tusho, no download from the official website for my platform 14:04:09 AnMaster: See, if you were using a binary distro... :-P 14:04:17 hm, when I pasted Bayes' votes I didn't show the proposals it voted on 14:04:19 Anyone interested? 14:04:46 tusho, I am using a binary distro. 14:04:58 Just the binaries are generated locally 14:04:59 AnMaster: Really? Which one? :-P 14:05:04 instead of remotely 14:05:05 Heh. 14:05:12 That's just twisting terminology. 14:05:16 tusho, I got /bin/cat not /bin/cat.c 14:05:19 as an example 14:05:22 AnMaster: That's just twisting terminology. 14:05:26 tusho, maybe :P 14:06:06 Hmm, I should make bayes run on a cronjob. 14:06:10 Every hour or so, process the new email 14:06:18 bayes@rutian:~$ python bayes/bayes.py 14:06:18 .... 14:06:19 bayes@rutian:~$ 14:06:21 I like that output 14:06:26 '... there's nothing here for me. Huh?' 14:06:28 I'm using a source based binary distro 14:06:40 even more, the install cd had binaries, not just source 14:06:41 (The dots represent a message it didn't process save for deleting.) 14:06:42 ;P 14:07:03 If anyone wants to see the proposals Bayes voted on: ##nomic-flood 14:07:18 tusho, ah we got to the binary phase 14:07:26 it is merging the binaries to the file system now 14:07:54 Nobody cares about Bayes. :-( 14:08:01 It's a program! That decides if things are good or not! 14:08:13 I use SpamBayes myself for email filtering 14:08:15 works well 14:08:52 AnMaster: Funny you should say that. Bayes uses SpamBayes, being written in Python, as a library. 14:09:09 tusho, hm interesting 14:10:15 AnMaster: Interesting? Good. Get yer ass over to ##nomic-flood. :D 14:10:28 tusho, but I think that 96% of my "ham" email could be found using this regex for subject: ^\[[^\]]+-(devel|svn|commit)\] 14:10:29 ;P 14:10:35 Heh. 14:11:04 tusho, oh and I'm not interested in nomics 14:11:16 AnMaster: But Bayes is cool. 14:11:26 And fun. 14:11:40 wtf, mzscheme ran tex config stuff at end of install 14:11:51 also install is around 200 MB 14:11:53 -_- 14:12:10 source download was around 14 MB 14:12:15 -!- oc2k1 has joined. 14:12:31 fizzie: Fine, you go to ##nomic-flood then. :-P 14:13:07 I have absolutely no clue what the whole "nomic" thing is about, it's all so confusing. 14:13:26 fizzie: Nomic is a game where the rules let you change the rules. 14:13:35 Here's a minimal nomic of one rule: 14:13:46 > (+ 2 3) 14:13:46 DrScheme cannot process programs until you choose a programming language. 14:13:46 Either select the “Choose Language...” item in the “Language” menu, or get guidance. 14:13:47 huh 14:13:48 1. Any player can propose a change to the rules. If all the other players agree to that change, it takes effect. 14:13:52 I thought it was scheme? 14:14:01 AnMaster: Choose Language -> MzScheme 14:14:06 err, MzScheme (Full) 14:14:08 or whatever it is 14:14:14 fizzie: 1. Any player can propose a change to the rules. If all the other players agree to that change, it takes effect. 14:14:36 tusho, err not there 14:14:41 * AnMaster is going to take screenshot 14:14:44 AnMaster: k 14:14:45 this is just too absurd 14:14:49 No. 14:14:50 It's not. 14:15:46 The language subset thing it has _was_ a bit silly. 14:15:49 http://omploader.org/vc2dt 14:15:51 wtf 14:16:09 tusho, what one? 14:16:31 AnMaster: Um. 14:16:34 That's messed up. 14:16:40 tusho, agreed 14:16:42 Those shouldn't be under "legacy languages". 14:16:48 AnMaster: you fucked up the install 14:16:53 tusho, no I didn't 14:16:57 AnMaster: Yes, yes you did. 14:17:01 Because I have never seen that before. 14:17:04 tusho, prove it 14:17:06 From anyone. 14:17:26 AnMaster: Generally, if everybody I know has the right screen and so do I and you have a messed up version of it... 14:17:31 I'd not place the blame on anything but your install. 14:17:32 It should have a "PLT" group there, with the sensible settings. 14:17:51 At least in 352. :p 14:17:56 AnMaster: 'Pretty Big' is the right language, but somehow I doubt it'll work. 14:17:58 Fix your install... 14:18:01 fizzie, this is 4.1 14:18:04 not 352 14:18:48 AnMaster: Anyway. 14:18:52 Select 'Pretty Big'. 14:18:56 It's the one you want to use. 14:19:05 tusho, http://omploader.org/vc2du 14:19:06 Its name makes more sense in the correct hierarchy: 14:19:09 Scheme 14:19:09 - PLT 14:19:12 - - Tiny 14:19:13 - - (etc) 14:19:15 - - Pretty Big 14:19:17 - - (etc) 14:19:26 AnMaster: Yes, just click OK. 14:19:43 wait isn't scheme case sensitive? 14:19:49 NO. 14:19:50 ER 14:19:52 capslock 14:19:53 No. 14:20:15 sure that is in the standard? 14:20:25 AnMaster: Have you read R5RS? 14:20:26 Have I? 14:20:32 tusho, no idea if you have 14:20:37 '(no yes) 14:21:20 err 14:21:21 $ mzscheme 14:21:21 Welcome to MzScheme v4.1 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2008 PLT Scheme Inc. 14:21:21 > (define x 3) 14:21:21 > X 14:21:21 reference to undefined identifier: X 14:21:23 > x 14:21:25 3 14:21:35 AnMaster: Different language. 14:21:44 Select Pretty Big in DrScheme and go with it. 14:22:10 tusho, different? So it isn't scheme? 14:22:30 AnMaster: It is a variation on scheme with case sensitive turned on, presumably. 14:22:45 Seriously: Pretty Big, OK, continue reading fixnum days. :P 14:23:15 tusho, well http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme-Z-H-3.html#node_chap_1 suggests command line mzscheme 14:23:26 Fine. Then use command-line mzscheme. 14:23:26 :-P 14:23:39 just indeed it states "normally case insensitive" 14:23:40 hm 14:23:46 Oh well. 14:23:50 Just go with what fixnum days says. 14:23:59 Huh. I just installed 4.1 and get the same language selection box as you. 14:24:01 Ahhh, I know. 14:24:07 Youre meant to us "Module" 14:24:13 tusho, there, not my fault! 14:24:14 which uses whatever language is specified in the module header 14:24:19 so stop blaming my install 14:24:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:24:31 AnMaster: Prior to that I had no reason to believe it was not your install. 14:24:33 Kthx. 14:24:50 tusho, maybe you should be more careful in the future? ;P 14:25:03 Meh. 14:25:04 tusho, anyway I prefer to work from REPL instead of files 14:25:15 Yes, R5RS defines that an implementation has a "preferred case" to which it converts all symbols. (Except those generated by string->symbol, which can have characters in a nonstandard case.) 14:25:19 DrScheme is a REPL+file environment. 14:25:30 Anyway, just do what Fixnum Days says. 14:25:57 anyway readline doesn't work in command line mzscheme 14:25:58 sigh 14:26:33 AnMaster: Use rlwrap. 14:26:46 also 14:26:47 hm 14:26:47 AnMaster: 14:26:49 mzscheme -il readline 14:27:00 ah, wait 14:27:12 AnMaster: Do this 14:27:14 in mzscheme 14:27:14 (install-readline!) 14:27:18 then restart it 14:27:28 -il readline *did* work. it seems? 14:27:33 Oh. 14:27:34 Okay then. 14:27:37 You can do (install-readline!) now. 14:27:41 So that just 'mzscheme' will use readline. 14:27:50 > (install-readline!) 14:27:50 reference to undefined identifier: install-readline! 14:28:02 ah I need the -il too 14:28:02 Hm. 14:28:05 Ah. 14:28:05 Yes. 14:28:07 I mean 14:28:09 mzscheme -il readline 14:28:11 And actually: R6RS Scheme _is_ case-sensitive. 14:28:13 (install-readline!) 14:28:15 ^D 14:28:16 mzscheme 14:28:19 fizzie: R6RS sucks. 14:28:24 And nobody sane uses it. 14:28:38 fizzie, so R5RS is case sensitive? or undefined? 14:28:45 R5RS is case insensitive. 14:28:52 R6RS is case sensitive. 14:28:52 Case-insensitive, after a fashion. 14:28:58 And R6RS probably didn't actually pass properly. 14:29:07 (The committee ... weren't too careful with their votes.) 14:29:17 (Also, they used a stupid-shit vote counting algorithm) 14:29:23 (That essentially meant it would pass no matter what) 14:29:38 All of the major scheme implementations have basically said that they're not implementing R6RS. 14:29:46 In R5RS symbols are turned into the implementation's preferred case in most cases (pun unintended), which makes it pretty case-insensitive. 14:30:24 MzScheme has been case-sensitive by default a reasonably long time, though. 14:30:48 Anyway just do what fixnum says, srsly 14:30:48 :-P 14:31:19 > (define a 1) 14:31:19 > a 14:31:19 1 14:31:19 > (define a 2) 14:31:19 > a 14:31:20 2 14:31:22 > (set! a 5) 14:31:24 > a 14:31:26 5 14:31:28 hm 14:31:30 so...? 14:31:32 AnMaster: why is that hm 14:31:32 single assignment or not? 14:31:36 No. 14:31:38 Not single assignment. 14:31:40 and what is the difference between set! and define there 14:31:44 define defines. 14:31:46 set! sets. 14:31:47 they seem to work exactly the same 14:31:52 tusho, oh it is another variable? 14:31:56 AnMaster: No. 14:32:04 But in R5RS syntax, define can only appear at the start of a function. 14:32:07 set! can appear anywhere. 14:32:08 Anyway. 14:32:09 ah 14:32:16 and REPL mess that up? 14:32:16 As R5RS specifies it: 14:32:20 define is basically purely functional 14:32:24 set! is destructive 14:32:29 But yeah, in a REPL they have no difference. 14:32:48 so in a function you will get an error when trying to change using define? 14:32:58 AnMaster: No. 14:33:01 It'll just shadow the variable. 14:33:02 But 14:33:07 (lambda () foobar (define ...)) 14:33:09 Is technically illegal. 14:33:14 I don't think any impls enforce that... 14:33:17 Er, of course they have a difference: set! can't set an undefined identifier. 14:33:19 hm interesting 14:33:23 fizzie: Well, that too. 14:34:15 http://www.offensive-security.com/movies/vistahack/vistahack.html OMG IF SOMEONE HAS PHYSICAL ACCESS TO YOUR MACHINE THEY CAN HACK IN TO IT :O :O :O 14:35:05 tusho, so... how does a shadowed definition differ from a changed definition? If scheme have pointers or references I could see how, but does it have that? 14:35:06 SHOCKING 14:35:14 AnMaster: 14:35:16 (define a 2) 14:35:25 (define (foo) (define a 3) a) 14:35:29 (foo) => 3 14:35:31 a => 2 14:35:36 VERSUS 14:35:39 (define a 2) 14:35:43 (define (foo) (set! a 3) a) 14:35:44 tusho, right, the scope 14:35:45 (foo) => 3 14:35:46 a => 3 14:36:05 Oh, and I have another difference: you can't use "(set! (x a) (+ a 1))" as a shorthand for "(set! x (lambda (a) (+ a 1)))", but with define you can. 14:36:14 Well, yes. 14:36:21 Nit-picking: it's what I do. 14:36:33 fizzie: FIZZIE: nitpicking 14:36:41 Imagine that on a motivational poster, would you. 14:36:44 FIZZIE 14:36:46 nitpicking 14:37:10 Admittedly, even R5RS says: "At the top level of a program, a definition -- has essentially the same effect as the assignment expression -- if is bound." 14:37:10 FIZZIE: for all your nitpicking needs 14:37:54 GAME LOST I JUST 14:41:05 oerjan: did any programs play agora back in the day? 14:41:47 not that i recall 14:43:12 Cool. I think Bayes will be the first mechanical playing machine, then. (PerlNomic Partnership doesn't count, it just does things like vote by proxy of the players.) 14:43:56 reference to undefined identifier: set-car! <-- huh? 14:44:11 AnMaster: In PLT Scheme 4, they made all conses immutable by default. 14:44:19 It makes things faster and also more functionally. 14:44:24 tusho, well was just following fixnum days 14:44:31 AnMaster: Yeah, well, 14:44:31 trying out the bits in order to learn 14:44:33 use mcons 14:44:42 (Mutable Cons) 14:45:00 (Note: I disagree with the choice to move to immutable conses by default) 14:45:05 is that consistent with R5RS? 14:45:11 AnMaster: Nope. 14:45:31 tusho, well I would like to use a standard following scheme 14:45:42 AnMaster: It's not a problem. 14:45:45 * AnMaster checks command line options 14:45:48 Most code doesn't use set-car!/set-cdr!. 14:46:04 When it does, just use mcons/mcar/mcdr/set-mcar!/set-mcdr! 14:46:06 But that's a very rare case. 14:46:13 AnMaster: set-car!/set-cdr! is considered quite poor style 14:46:20 for large values of quite 14:46:39 -!- puzzlet_ has changed nick to puzzlet. 14:46:43 tusho, yes I understand that, still I assume not all other implementations have the m names 14:46:54 AnMaster: Scheme code is not portable. End of. 14:47:04 None of the libraries - at all - or the ways of loading them - are portable. 14:47:09 SRFI libraries, yes, portable. 14:47:11 But not the ways to load them. 14:47:26 it is impossible to write a non-trivial R5RS program that runs on multiple implementations without modification. 14:47:33 hm 14:47:42 Best option: Deal with it, use PLT Scheme's dialect, because it has a big user community and is the best impl. 14:47:50 what about R6RS? 14:47:59 R6RS is laughable. 14:48:08 It only passed because they decided to count the votes in a retarded way, 14:48:11 there is NO user community, 14:48:20 maybe common lisp is more portable? 14:48:22 only a handful of implementations - none with substantial libraries - although R6RS does have more libraries built in - 14:48:31 and also R6RS' built in libraries are quite unschemish 14:48:34 AnMaster: Yes, but still not by much. 14:48:39 hm 14:48:46 Common Lisp has a way to print numbers in roman numerals built-in 14:48:50 but no standard networking library. 14:48:53 Also, scheme is nicer. 14:48:59 tusho, useful for intercal 14:49:01 My advice: Just stick with PLT... 14:49:07 AnMaster: No, INTERCAL does it in another way 14:49:15 With its extra lines for _ super/subscripts 14:49:20 ah yes true 14:49:54 tusho, well then, what about a fixnum days compatible scheme? Does that exist? 14:50:09 AnMaster: Yes, it's called "obsolete PLT scheme". Honestly, though: It hasn't changed much. 14:50:13 mcons is probably the only major snag you'll hit 14:50:15 hm 14:50:19 and I doubt fixnum uses set-car!/set-cdr! much anyway 14:50:37 hm 14:50:42 hm 14:51:55 hm 14:53:59 Re MzScheme, since version 4 there's the command-line executable "plt-r5rs" which loads MzScheme in R5RS mode -- that might even match fixnum's language better than current default PLT scheme. 14:54:30 I don't really have a good guess to how much PLT-isms there are in fixnum. 14:54:55 At least the case-sensitivity seems to go away in "plt-r5rs". :p 14:55:18 (And conses become mutable, obviously.) 14:55:45 I would just use mzscheme. 14:55:52 :-P 14:55:58 since everyone else does 14:56:24 tusho, that is case sensitive, which you claimed scheme wasn't ;P 14:56:33 AnMaster: no, I said R5RS scheme wasn't 15:07:26 -!- ae5ir has joined. 15:41:19 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 15:42:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_numbers 15:48:17 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | for backup files. 15:50:13 * oerjan doesn't think people would be happy if he started using #esoteric for backup 15:50:28 oerjan: try it 15:51:05 tusho, I think I hit another such incompatiblity 15:51:09 spelling 15:51:17 AnMaster: wut 15:51:22 tusho, http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme-Z-H-6.html#node_sec_4.3 15:51:34 ya what about it 15:51:53 "reference to undefined identifier: c 15:51:53 " 15:52:06 AnMaster: "The clause whose head contains the value of c is chosen." 15:52:13 My placeholder variables, let me show you them. 15:52:17 ah 15:52:27 right 15:52:33 :-P 15:52:54 * AnMaster got a cold so not thinking 100% straight atm 15:53:06 AnMaster: Try going on hold. 15:53:58 yeah i am the reason scheme 15:54:02 for* 15:54:52 kCongrats, you speak less sense than fungot... 15:54:53 tusho: a multiline text box in a post regarding stalin 0.9, but i 15:55:47 stalin is a scheme impl 15:55:47 :D 15:55:58 only restricted R*4*RS though 15:56:04 its hyper-optimizing 15:57:29 hi ais523 15:59:42 brb 16:00:28 optbot: do you like scheme ? 16:00:28 KingOfKarlsruhe: yeah lzw is used in gif 16:04:35 fungot: Care to write me a Funge-98 Scheme implementation so that I can add a ^scheme command? 16:04:36 fizzie: i deliberately made some things different from scsh? 16:04:52 fungot: You mean you already *have* written one? 16:04:52 fizzie: ( fnord ' dwim) ( dwim) will do anything, and 3 16:05:12 that's some kickass scheme implementation 16:06:05 fungot: Anything _and_ three! Wow! 16:06:06 fizzie: where is scsh? that is a very original thought....are you a poet? 16:06:55 I think I'm being dissed here. 16:08:02 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:08:25 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:09:20 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:33:47 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:34:22 fizzie: try using Sponge to compile Sponge itself into Befunge 16:51:30 tusho, there? 16:51:35 No. 16:51:36 :D 16:51:39 I don't think it's capable of compiling itself at the moment. 16:51:40 on the other side 16:51:54 fizzie: wut is sponge 16:52:05 "Sponge - a compiler (in Common Lisp) from a tiny subset of Scheme to Befunge 98." 16:52:27 tusho, Well, copy-pasting the definition of when from http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme-Z-H-10.html#node_sec_8.1 caused "reference to undefined identifier: IF" when trying to use the macro later 16:52:29 fizzie: Didjoo write it? 16:52:36 tusho: Nopey. 16:52:41 AnMaster: case sensitive 16:52:41 tusho, which explains why I couldn't get it to work on it's own 16:52:49 AnMaster: should be "if' 16:52:52 *"if" 16:53:04 hm 16:53:11 AnMaster: now I'm _sure_ you could have figured that out yourself... 16:56:05 tusho, ok then the other bit: 16:56:07 > (when (= 1 1) 16:56:07 (list 1 2 3)) 16:56:07 readline::379: if: bad syntax (must have an "else" expression) in: (if (= 1 1) (begin (list 1 2 3))) 16:56:22 interesting if incompatibility it seems 16:56:29 AnMaster: Yes. That is odd. 16:56:37 Add the else condition (third if parameter) as (void). 16:56:47 That is what (if x y) means in R5RS. 16:56:53 hm 16:56:56 Except you can't do (void) in R5RS. :-P 16:56:59 but yeah 16:57:00 that's odd 16:57:02 but easily fixable 16:57:13 tusho, so which one is wrong: fixnum or mzscheme? 16:57:22 fizzie: you can always extend it :-) 16:57:39 AnMaster: Fixnum was right relating to mzscheme when it was written, but mzscheme has changed. 16:57:41 It's all relative. 16:57:48 Anyway, you don't really ever do (if x y). 16:57:53 So I guess it was just for consistency. 16:57:58 Deewiant: Maybe I'll just write a Scheme interpreter. How hard can it be? I already wrote one in Prolog, with continuation support and everything. 16:58:16 fizzie: Unlimited call/cc in befunge> 16:58:21 If you do that I love yo 16:58:21 u 16:58:21 tusho, also I think that macro is somehow messing up the readline history. How strange 16:58:30 AnMaster: Huh. 16:58:53 And you definitely do (if x y)... like (if debug (display "blah")). 16:59:04 fizzie: well, Prolog supports things like data structures :-P 16:59:06 fizzie: Ok, true. 16:59:07 Well... 16:59:11 I don't know. 16:59:13 Lemme check in PLT. 16:59:18 Perhaps AnMaster's installation actually is fucked. :-P 16:59:21 tusho, using up arrow skips anything written in this session up until the end of the when macro definition 16:59:23 it seems 16:59:31 MzScheme v4.0.1 doesn't like 'if' without an else branch. 16:59:33 AnMaster: odd 16:59:39 fizzie: Also odd. 16:59:51 anyway 17:00:02 (if debug (display "blah")) is probably not as functional as good scheme should be 17:00:02 (Except when running with "plt-r5rs" when it does "R5RS legacy support loaded".) 17:00:16 Functional, schmunktional, it's a debugging thing. :p 17:00:20 AnMaster: check the docs 17:00:26 Of course it's easy to add a "#f" else branch there. 17:00:28 (drscheme->help->plt docs) 17:00:43 tusho, anything specific in those docs? or just in general? 17:00:55 AnMaster: Search for 'if'? 17:00:58 right 17:00:59 'if provided from mzscheme's i the resutl yo uwant 17:01:02 -!- slereah has joined. 17:01:11 Hmm... 17:01:14 * tusho reads 17:02:01 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:02:07 AnMaster: * Use `when' instead of one-armed `if' (which is no longer allowed). 17:02:08 Ha. 17:02:11 So the macro you are writing... 17:02:14 ...is now in the core 17:02:17 :-D 17:02:24 tusho, I was just trying an example in the fixnum 17:02:27 yeah 17:02:28 just saying 17:02:36 AnMaster: perhaps try 17:02:40 when-not 17:02:42 (define-macro when 17:02:46 er 17:02:48 (define-macro when-not 17:02:49 (lambda test . branch) 17:02:55 `(when (not ,test) 17:03:03 tusho, maybe "unless"? would be a better name 17:03:04 (begin ,@branch) 17:03:05 )))))))))))))))))))))))))))) 17:03:08 AnMaster: That too. 17:03:16 also 17:03:21 might wanna restart mzscheme if that fails 17:03:24 I don't really see the reason to be so R5RS-incompatible in that particular case. 17:03:26 you might have mucked up the core 'when' 17:03:32 fizzie: No, nor do I, but oh wlel 17:03:35 *well 17:04:05 tusho, yeah probably 17:06:11 And why unhygienic define-macro instead of the <3 R5RS define-syntax? :p 17:06:16 > (define-syntax unless (syntax-rules () ((_ test branch ...) (when (not test) branch ...)))) 17:06:20 > (unless #f (display 'yay) (newline)) 17:06:22 yay 17:06:23 fizzie: It has define-syntax. 17:06:27 But it also has define-macro. 17:06:27 Which 17:06:31 is NOT the regular 17:06:33 unhygenic one 17:06:35 iirc 17:06:45 it's way more powerful if I recall correctly 17:06:54 fizzie, because that haven't yet been mentioned in fixnum. I guess it may be mentioned later 17:07:02 that is the only reason 17:07:22 Well, it sure looks like plain old arbitrary code transformation. 17:07:33 What with all the quasiquote-unquote stuff. 17:07:58 blame tusho then, since he recommended that site 17:07:59 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:08:05 What? 17:08:08 That tutorial is good. 17:08:09 No, I like the fixnum tutorial too. 17:08:13 fizzie was just commenting on define-macro. 17:10:01 But it's curious that he does point out one way to avoid variable capturing (explicit gensym'ing) and doesn't say a word about hygienic macro systems. 17:10:14 fizzie: Probably because they're not the easiest thing to understand at first. 17:10:41 -!- ais523_ has joined. 17:10:42 hi ais523_ 17:12:20 hi ais523_ yes 17:12:45 (hi? 'ais523_) ==> #t 17:12:52 I chose a topical way of saying "hi". 17:12:57 -!- jix has joined. 17:13:52 * AnMaster glares at fizzie 17:13:58 fizzie: is that in Scheme? 17:14:12 ais523_: Yes. 17:14:26 fizzie : Write "Hello world!" then 17:14:56 (display "Hello, world!") (newline) 17:15:01 BOY THAT WAS HARD 17:16:38 :D 17:16:56 ^help 17:16:56 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 17:17:02 I could write it in Gdel representation, but it's kinda long :D 17:18:20 http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme-Z-H-11.html#node_sec_9.2 <-- is it just me or is that extremely ugly? 17:18:37 Yes. 17:18:39 That is ugly. 17:18:45 *shudder* 17:18:50 But readable. 17:18:50 but it's probably a bit you too. 17:18:57 I mean, it's not the ideal form. 17:19:02 but I can read it without too many problems 17:19:05 Doesn't stop it being ugly 17:19:16 that's actually quite pretty 17:19:19 * oerjan chases after the pod man ---## 17:19:35 What is that function for? 17:19:55 slereah, it is a macro not a function 17:20:07 I don't know what a macro is :( 17:20:18 That hello-world was a bit too simple, maybe? 17:20:19 well a macro is a (special case of) function too I suppose. 17:20:21 (for-each display (append (map (lambda (i) (string-ref "Hello, world!" i)) (letrec ((iota (lambda (from to) (if (= from to) (cons from '()) (cons from (iota (+ from 1) to)))))) (iota 0 12))) (list #\newline))) 17:20:28 AnMaster: macros happen at compile times 17:20:40 tusho, ah yes, but what about interpreters? 17:20:48 instead of compilers 17:20:56 AnMaster: then yes a special case of function 17:21:34 tusho, are compile time macros turing complete I wonder... 17:21:40 yes 17:21:43 as they're just scheme code... 17:22:00 heh 17:22:02 tusho, would you go as far as saying: scheme functions that happen to be run at compile time 17:22:03 o u 17:22:03 ? 17:22:13 AnMaster: Yes...that is exactly what macros are. 17:22:21 Scheme functions that are run on the code and return code to be compiled,. 17:22:28 tusho, so really a special case of function? compile time functions ;P 17:22:37 Kinda. 17:22:53 (sorry for twisting the terminology around, don't feel bad over it ;)) 17:23:09 -!- oerjan has quit ("C U"). 17:23:30 macros are just scheme code, huh? aren't there things like those weird ellipsis and shit 17:23:43 oklopod: They're talking about the "defmacro" style macros. 17:24:03 oh ic 17:24:10 i don't know anything about those 17:24:19 oklopod: Well, they're just Scheme code. :p 17:24:20 except i do now, in case they are just scheme code. 17:24:25 heh :) 17:25:26 In contrast, R5RS syntax-rules macros specify code transformers using a less powerful language. I don't think I want to make a guess about its Turing-completeness. 17:26:19 There's recursion, though, so they might well be. 17:26:53 The Internets contain claims that they are. 17:26:58 fizzie, if they are tc they would be equally powerful to defmacro style, right? 17:27:03 syntax-rules is TC 17:27:14 Source: Oleg 17:27:26 http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/macros.html#turing-completeness-hygiene 17:27:33 (Oleg has, as far as I know, never been wrong.) 17:30:20 -!- megatron has joined. 17:30:22 But it's not like a TC macro system would mean it'd have to be able to do all the code transformations possible with defmacro. For example the unhygienic stuff should not be possible. It just needs to be able to compute everything that's computable, which doesn't say it needs to be able to output sensible Scheme code. 17:30:58 sure 17:31:14 fizzie: yes 17:31:16 that is what http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/macros.html#turing-completeness-hygiene says 17:31:17 :-P 17:40:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:49:41 While I can certainly see some very very good things with scheme, I have so far two issues with it: 1) you end up with too many ))))) at the end of many expressions for it to be readable. 2) apart from really trivial things it is rather ugly languages, and then I don't mean only macros, but also code with no macros 17:51:01 AnMaster: 1) Use an editor that balances them. 17:51:05 Once you know Scheme you rarely notice the parens. 17:51:12 2) It is not ugly, your code is ugly. 17:51:35 tusho, I was also thinking about many examples in fixnum for 2 17:51:45 not just the basic stuff I wrote so far 17:51:47 AnMaster: Then you're looking at them wrong. 17:51:48 :-P 17:53:04 tusho, however I'm convinced (and have been for long) that S-Expressions make a great markup format for data. I'm just not convinced it is a great format for code 17:53:21 AnMaster: And I will respectfully disagree. 17:53:30 fine with me 18:09:38 tusho, I have a question... 18:09:57 what is the full list of valid chars in identifiers in scheme? 18:10:03 almost everything it seems... but? 18:10:23 AnMaster: its in r5rs 18:10:27 i'll dig it up in a min 18:10:35 * AnMaster googles 18:16:40 Letters, digits and the set ! $ % & * + - . / : < = > ? @ ^ _ ~, if you didn't already find it. 18:18:38 And +, -, ., @ can't be the first characters in an identifier, except the special cases +, - and ..., which are all identifiers. 18:19:39 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:21:30 The rules pretty much come from "an identifier can't begin so that it'd look like a number", and I guess @ is forbidden to make sure that ,@foo is always (unquote-splicing foo) and not (unquote @foo). 18:27:22 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 18:33:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:42:46 oerjan, do you have some time? 18:42:56 I got a math related question 18:43:41 all the time in the world 18:43:50 I was playing around with scheme, defining a gcd function, and entered some random large numbers to it. And then I noticed an odd pattern 18:43:51 at least until supper 18:43:53 no you don't, because i definitelyy have some too 18:43:59 oerjan, http://rafb.net/p/i3RhgM20.html 18:44:02 1, 11, 1, 11 18:44:16 my question is simple: why does it repeat like that 18:44:25 seems to do so for even more 3s added 18:44:30 though I can't prove it 18:44:35 well 18:44:37 (tested with another 10) 18:44:40 do you know any modular arithmetic? 18:44:52 oklopod: it's leased. if anyone claims from either of us, we'll be as screwed as those sub-prime banks 18:45:05 oklopod, I do know % in C and similar and how to use it for various things 18:45:10 not sure how much that counts 18:45:31 AnMaster: well more like, what's 53-235 (mod 7) 18:45:38 do you know the reduction rules 18:45:44 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:45:51 you could use those to see what underlies that magic 18:45:58 i think 18:45:59 I assume that would be basically 53 235 - 7 mod 18:46:01 i don't know how! 18:46:02 assuming rpn? 18:46:12 well yes, that's what it means 18:46:16 but that's not what i'm asking 18:46:38 well reduction rules I don't know anything about in this case 18:46:45 you could try taking the first number modulo the second number, and represent them in nicer forms 18:46:50 and you might get something outta that 18:46:52 however I don't know math terminology in English very well 18:47:22 hm multiplying by 10, adding 3. i am not sure that should give a consistent gcd 18:47:25 basically, in A B (mod N), you can often do (A % N) (B % N) insteda 18:47:27 *instead 18:47:47 actually the pattern breaks at 18:47:48 > (gcd 3237896520375 3094803923233333333333333333333) 18:47:48 121 18:48:05 right 18:48:19 however then why does it repeat so long 18:48:22 still 18:48:44 and after that 121 it goes back to repeating 1/11 for quite a bit 18:48:52 the fact that it hits 11 as a factor every second step is the clue. 18:49:07 yes hm... 18:49:09 that it rarely hits anything else may just be random chance 18:49:20 ah yes 18:49:26 oerjan, actually the 121 replaced an 11 not an 1 18:49:39 there were 1 on both sides of it 18:49:43 after two steps, you have replaced y by 100y+33 18:49:55 if y is divisible by 11, clearly so is the next 18:49:58 ah 18:50:02 right makes sense 18:50:35 oerjan, what is more interesting then is that 121 repeats too, always replacing a 11, and very far from each other 18:50:37 > (gcd 3237896520375 30948039232333333333333333333333333333333333333333333) 18:50:38 121 18:50:47 and that it cannot be divisible by 11 on the other steps is also likely 18:51:00 AnMaster: yes. this is explainable by moduli 18:51:08 hm 18:51:22 because y%121 will go in a cycle somehow 18:51:23 I guess it is like the 11 pattern, just on larger scale, right? 18:51:47 > (gcd 3237896520375 309480392323333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333) seems to be the next 121 18:52:05 in fact the _entire_ gcd should repeat on a sufficiently large scale, as you take the modulus of the second number by the first 18:52:34 hm? 18:52:53 you mean all subpatterns too? 18:53:07 is this true for any number? say 444... or such? 18:53:27 when you replace y by 10y+3, you replace y%3237896520375 by (10(y%3237896520375)+3) % 3237896520375 18:53:51 so each modulus depends only on the previous. and the gcd only depends on that modulus. 18:53:51 ah I see what you mean... 18:55:18 oerjan, there seems to be a pattern for 2 and 4 too, but much larger than that for 3 18:55:24 so yeah 18:55:31 yeah there should be 18:55:44 oerjan, however the 3 one was very simple and short 18:56:03 fungot: suggest a change to the rules of a nomic 18:56:04 ais523_: can you ignore all but the most i can come back and write the program 18:56:36 * oerjan thinks fungot has ADHD 18:56:37 oerjan: another problem is ie5 isn't used by the caller or callee. 18:56:40 oerjan, now could there be a larger pattern than the 121-cycle for the "3-case"? Would it in theory be possible to prove? 18:57:26 well first you can prime factorize 3237896520375 18:57:45 because each distinct prime gives an independent part of the cycle 18:57:47 $ factor 3237896520375 18:57:47 3237896520375: 3 5 5 5 11 11 71358601 18:58:16 also, you can ignore the 5's since you are multiplying by 10 18:58:27 ah and 11*11 is 121... 18:58:30 (unless you also add something divisible by 5) 18:58:36 * AnMaster considers 18:58:55 hitting that last large prime is unlikely 18:59:06 oerjan, why is that? 18:59:16 often, i mean 18:59:19 because you'd have to have it as a factor somewhere? 18:59:19 yeah 18:59:29 oh often 18:59:30 oerjan, but could it happen? 18:59:40 fungot: another suggestion? The first one was a bit short, so I want more info 18:59:41 ais523_: hm. does this assume wrapping cells? sounds a bit dirty 18:59:57 wait... fungot actually said something that made sense... 18:59:58 ais523_: some economy shit... https://www.osmosian.com/ cal-3037.zip 18:59:59 oerjan, and possible 11*71358601 and 11*11*71358601 ? 19:00:11 or am I totally wrong? 19:00:33 AnMaster: as i said the cycles of different primes are independent. 19:00:43 hm 19:00:55 oerjan, however how does that explain 121? 19:01:00 * AnMaster is confused now 19:01:03 if you hit 121 every n step and 71358601 every m step then you hit both every lcm(m,n) steps 19:01:18 ais523: it did? 19:01:19 ah... 19:01:32 oerjan, so how to compute m? :) 19:01:40 to look at the 121 part you need only to look at y%121 which repeats too 19:01:50 ah right 19:01:53 (duh) 19:02:02 similarly you can calculate the y%71358601 part 19:02:06 (of the cycle) 19:02:40 only when that hits 0, do you get it as part of gcd 19:03:27 hm is there any quick method of finding out *when* it will hit 0, without trying every one possible number? 19:03:34 whether it actually _does_ hit 0 for all numbers y eventually is another matter. there could be several cycles. 19:04:26 lessee 19:04:56 lessee? 19:05:18 this seems to be connected with something called primitive roots 19:05:28 * AnMaster googles 19:05:53 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 19:05:58 basically for any prime p there are some numbers x such that x^n repeats only every p-1 steps 19:06:50 if 10 is such a number for this prime, then it is likely that every y will hit 0, i think 19:07:13 lessee 19:07:27 oerjan, however it seems it doesn't hit 0 for every y? 19:07:34 3> 309480392323333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333 rem 71358601. 19:07:34 14619800 19:07:34 4> 3094803923233333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333 rem 71358601. 19:07:34 3480801 19:07:56 have you got a cycle? 19:08:20 note that you may expect that hit to happen after 71358601/2 steps on average 19:08:23 oerjan, of 71358601? Not as far as I know, all I saw was 1/11 and then 121 19:08:39 * AnMaster writes a program to test 19:09:01 also, you want to take modulus after each step, and use that for the next 19:09:09 otherwise the numbers get huge 19:09:47 for 121 this should be a short calculation, as it will repeat after <= 121 steps 19:10:01 you mean like... y 3237896520375 % 10 * 3 + 19:10:01 ? 19:10:22 err wait 19:10:58 y = (10*y+3) % 71358601 19:11:05 if you are checking just that part 19:11:12 right 19:11:33 but let me see about this primitive root thing 19:11:41 oerjan, and initial y would be something like 3094803923233333333333333333 then 19:12:24 you only need to consider y's smaller than the modulus 19:12:48 or equivalently, take the modulus once as your first step 19:13:00 -!- olsner has joined. 19:13:27 i wanted to rewrite that equation a bit 19:13:42 oerjan, then 63375004 or something? 19:13:46 1> 3094803923233333333333333333 rem 71358601. 19:13:46 63375004 19:13:51 yeah 19:14:24 ... to see if my primitive root idea actually makes sense 19:14:40 so (leaving lisp and using erlang) 19:14:46 something like: 19:14:47 calc(0) -> 19:14:48 true; 19:14:48 calc(Y) -> 19:14:48 Y1 = (10*Y+3) rem 71358601, 19:14:48 calc(Y1). 19:15:14 using 63375004 as initial value 19:15:59 yeah provided it actually hits 19:16:16 otherwise you want to keep a count to know when to stop trying 19:16:28 (cannot take more than 71358601 steps) 19:16:33 ah a sec 19:17:29 as i said there is a likelyhood it _might_ take 71358600 steps per cycle, and so every number hits except one 19:18:06 which i'm now trying to calculate 19:18:08 calc(_, 71358601) -> false; 19:18:08 calc(0, _) -> true; 19:18:08 calc(Y, Count) -> 19:18:08 calc((10*Y+3) rem 71358601, Count+1). 19:18:09 maybe 19:18:21 for calc(63375004, 0) I guess 19:18:23 yeah 19:19:02 you might want to return the count 19:19:16 oerjan, returns false after a few seconds on my system 19:19:21 ah 19:19:44 try Y = 0 and returning the count, that gives you the length of the whole cycle 19:20:35 you mean like: 19:20:39 calc(Y, 71358601) -> {false, Y}; 19:20:40 calc(0, Count) -> {true, Count}; 19:20:40 calc(Y, Count) -> 19:20:40 calc((10*Y+3) rem 71358601, Count+1). 19:20:40 ? 19:20:59 for example yeah 19:20:59 and then cycle:calc(0, 0). ? 19:21:03 yes 19:21:11 returns {true,0} 19:21:15 er 19:21:16 heh 19:21:22 since it hits 0 there 19:21:25 (3,0) then 19:21:35 9> cycle:calc(3, 0). 19:21:36 {true,5946549} 19:21:44 ooh 19:21:54 oerjan, took about 0.1 seconds or so 19:21:55 that means it _doesn't_ hit for every number 19:22:16 oerjan, now you confused me 19:22:19 and that is count 19:22:22 since it is true 19:22:44 Y was obviously 0 there 19:23:27 AnMaster: 5946550 is a factor of 71358600, and thus a possible cycle length 19:23:32 oerjan, btw for the code to be that fast I had to use HIPE, which compiles into native code instead of erlang byte code, without HIPE it takes several seconds 19:23:52 a number Y hits 0 only if it is in the unique cycle which contains 0 19:24:08 hm 19:24:09 which has length 5946550, and thus that many members 19:24:21 but wasn't the number 71358601? 19:24:28 or have I missed something 19:24:44 it's a technicality 19:24:47 err 19:24:54 $ factor 71358600 19:24:54 71358600: 2 2 2 3 5 5 118931 19:24:55 $ factor 71358601 19:24:55 71358601: 71358601 19:25:06 (if that is any help) 19:25:36 (which I guess it isn't) 19:25:57 there will be _some_ number such that (10*y+3) rem 71358601 == y 19:26:03 $ factor 5946550 19:26:03 5946550: 2 5 5 118931 19:26:04 btw 19:26:38 oerjan, independent of any other numbers in front like we originally had? 19:26:45 3094803923233333333333333... 19:26:51 hm? 19:27:06 wasn't just 33333... but had some other digits in front 19:27:38 i am talking about a single number y 19:27:45 ah 19:28:17 which sort of gets left out, and so the remaining large cycles get length that is a factor of 71358600 19:28:48 oerjan, why 71358600 and not 71358601? I don't get that 19:29:01 another way of saying this (probably) is that 5946550 is the smallest number n such that 10^n rem 71358601 == 1 19:30:10 it is a theorem (fermat's little theorem) that x^(p-1) rem p == 1 for every prime p and gcd(x,p) == 1 19:30:47 oerjan, it is proved? 19:30:52 or? 19:30:52 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:30:56 yes 19:31:11 aha 19:31:41 and that is, with some rearranging of equations, where these cycles come from 19:32:10 x is said to be a primitive root of p if p-1 is the smallest number n such that x^n rem p == 1 19:32:27 oh btw tusho will be scared 19:32:33 aug 11 15:23:57 * tusho will be very scared on the day when AnMaster starts preferring a functional language to C for a lot of tasks. :P 19:32:38 I did that just now 19:32:46 but from what we've calculated so far, i expect 10 is _not_ a primitive root of the prime 71358601 19:32:56 AnMaster: what language is it 19:32:59 used Erlang instead of C, even though I knew Erlang would be slower 19:33:05 though it didn't matter 19:33:06 :O 19:33:12 instead 10^5946550 rem 71358601 == 1 19:33:14 AnMaster: but erlang lets you microptimize 19:33:18 and think pretty low-levelly 19:33:20 disqualified 19:33:32 tusho, I didn't microoptimise 19:33:37 calc(Y, 71358601) -> {false, Y}; 19:33:37 calc(0, Count) -> {true, Count}; 19:33:37 calc(Y, Count) -> 19:33:37 calc((10*Y+3) rem 71358601, Count+1). 19:33:39 was all 19:33:44 k 19:33:45 :P 19:34:03 tusho, it was the natural way to write it, in the natural language to write it 19:34:10 k 19:34:12 :P 19:34:24 tusho, and it was functional and tail recursive :P 19:34:50 tusho, non-tail recursive wouldn't have worked since we hit 5946549 iterations 19:35:02 oerjan, so what is a primitive root to that prime? 19:35:26 oh wait 19:35:36 i've guessed wrongly 19:35:41 er no 19:35:46 ? 19:35:50 scratch that, i got confused 19:35:57 i am right after all :D 19:36:31 i don't personally know any way to find a primitive root other than testing random candidates 19:36:51 but they do exist, by theorem 19:37:08 oerjan, are they larger or smaller than the prime? 19:37:12 or both? 19:37:12 smaller 19:37:14 ah 19:37:25 only modulos vs. the prime count, after all 19:37:29 then an exhaustive search shouldn't be that bad 19:37:34 the prime is pretty small after all 19:38:02 lessee 19:38:09 71358600: 2 2 2 3 5 5 118931 19:38:13 oerjan, and is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_root_modulo_n#Finding_primitive_roots relevant? 19:38:25 quite likely 19:38:38 oerjan, I got to say that text is over my head though :( 19:38:57 even more so since it is in English, and I really lack the math terminology in English 19:39:52 in this case it's probably easier just to test candidates. 19:40:08 I can't work out the needed maths 19:41:00 there should be 1*1*1*2*4*4*118930 primitive roots of 71358601, by the above factorization if i am correct 19:41:09 so hitting one is not too hard 19:42:02 3805760, thats a lot 19:42:47 oerjan, however I still fail at the maths for it 19:43:44 you want to calculate x^n rem 71358601 and check how fast it hits 1 19:43:59 with steps of n+1? 19:44:31 err 19:44:33 Y1 = (Y0*X) rem 71358601 in something resembling your calc function 19:44:40 heyyy i've read the primitive root proof for prime rings 19:45:01 oerjan, were does X come from? 19:45:12 the candidate 19:45:14 primitive roots 19:45:16 ah 19:45:20 are so cool 19:45:32 oerjan, which is a huge list that I map the function on or something? 19:45:36 stop solving your problem bask in their coolness 19:45:39 *problem and 19:46:14 AnMaster: well if you want to find _all_ primitive roots 19:46:20 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 19:46:26 but you probably want to stop at the first hit i guess 19:46:30 yeah 19:47:03 0 and 1 cannot be primitive roots, so start with 2 and go up from there 19:48:15 so: initial value for X = 2, Initial value for Y = ? 19:48:26 1 or X 19:48:46 er, X 19:48:55 (makes testing easier i think) 19:49:00 * AnMaster considers 19:49:18 oerjan, and when to stop for each? 19:49:34 when Y == 1 19:50:09 then you return the count, which should be the smallest n such that X^n rem p == 1 19:50:20 wtf I must have this mixed up 19:50:22 calc_root(X, Y, 71358601) -> {false, X, Y}; 19:50:22 calc_root(X, 1, Count) -> {true, X, Count}; 19:50:22 calc_root(X, Y, Count) -> 19:50:22 Y1 = (Y*X) rem 71358601 19:50:23 calc(X, Y1, Count+1). 19:50:26 that makes no sense 19:51:11 also should be calc_root 19:51:15 but even then it makes no sense 19:51:26 oerjan, you confused me now 19:52:06 the first line is unnecessary 19:52:27 oerjan, even so what about incrementing X? 19:52:34 the true of the second should be Count == 71358600 19:53:09 this is just the function for checking one candidate 19:53:18 ah 19:53:19 so 19:53:21 calc_root(X, Y, 71358600) -> {true, X, Y}; 19:53:21 calc_root(X, Y, Count) -> 19:53:21 Y1 = (Y*X) rem 71358601 19:53:21 calc_root(X, Y1, Count+1). 19:53:29 err? 19:53:37 um not quite 19:53:43 ah 19:53:45 indeed it seems wrong 19:54:22 you can make the second line calc_root(X, 1, Count) -> calc_root(X+1,X+1, 1); 19:54:52 * AnMaster considers this 19:55:04 well a bit more sense 19:55:15 oerjan, any more errors? 19:55:17 that goes on to the next candidate 19:55:31 i think that should work 19:55:56 well apart from the missing comma 19:55:57 heh 19:56:29 calc_root(2,2,1). or calc_root(2,2,0). for initial call then? 19:56:47 the former 19:56:52 20> cycle:calc_root(2,2,1). 19:56:52 {false,7,1} 19:56:57 took several seconds 19:57:04 no clue how to interpret that answer 19:57:20 what? 19:57:27 oerjan, and it seems wrong? 19:57:36 that's not possible from what i thought we'd agreed on :D 19:57:45 since there is no false in that program 19:57:52 ok: 19:57:58 wait 19:57:58 calc_root(X, Y, 71358600) -> {true, X, Y}; 19:57:59 * AnMaster checks 19:58:05 right 19:58:08 oerjan, I had false there 19:58:10 for some reason 19:58:19 but otherwise the same? 19:58:19 but otherwise the same 19:58:21 yes 19:58:36 then 7 should be a primitive root of 71358601 19:58:45 and the smallest, too 19:58:50 it is easy to verify I assume? 19:59:07 * AnMaster reads on wikipedia 19:59:12 well yeah but that's what you just did :) 19:59:52 -!- oklopod has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:59:55 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:59:55 -!- dbc has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:00:00 -!- Hiato has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:00:00 -!- moozilla has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:00:02 -!- rodgort has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:00:15 oerjan, err wikipedia says g^k = a (mod n) <-- that would be --> 71358601 ^ ??? = ?? (mod 7) 20:00:19 or? 20:00:34 you have some characters there i cannot read i think 20:00:51 no 20:00:51 they're question marks 20:00:51 oerjan, they are really question marks 20:00:57 since I don't know what to put there 20:01:10 g=7, n=71358601 20:01:15 a=1 20:01:21 oerjan, k? 20:01:36 ends up being 71358600 20:02:14 oh wait 20:02:23 you are looking at the initial paragraph? 20:02:27 oerjan, yep 20:02:57 oerjan, basically I don't trust that program I wrote 20:03:10 right in that case a is any number such that gcd(7, a) == 1 20:03:31 er wait 20:03:41 oerjan, *you* verify it ;P 20:03:42 gcd(71358601, a) == 1 20:03:59 it's an alternative definition 20:04:00 I don't trust my own code at this time of the night 20:05:06 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:05:20 -!- Hiato has joined. 20:05:20 -!- oklopod has joined. 20:05:20 -!- moozilla has joined. 20:05:20 -!- dbc has joined. 20:05:20 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 20:05:20 -!- rodgort has joined. 20:06:44 you don't want to use that definition for checking. for that you want to use the "n is the smallest number such that x^n == 1 (mod p)" version 20:06:55 oerjan, you check 20:06:58 er, p-1 20:07:22 oerjan, also isn't that what we did just before? 20:07:34 that's what i said :D 20:07:59 well yeah but that's what you just did :) 20:08:01 oerjan, but that is hardly a verification :/ 20:08:14 oerjan, I mean verifying that my program was right 20:08:15 oh well 20:08:34 well i could try and rewrite in haskell 20:08:47 oerjan, would be easy I guess? 20:08:50 + probably faster 20:09:02 erlang isn't really that good at math intensive stuff 20:09:09 not that it was very slow at all 20:09:12 don't know about faster since i'm using Hugs 20:09:22 hugs is an interpreter? 20:09:24 or? 20:09:28 yeah 20:09:32 * AnMaster somehow assumed ghc 20:09:44 doesn't everyone 20:09:54 why not ghc then? 20:10:17 oerjan, would be nice to know how long it takes in hugs 20:10:38 i'm on windows and ghc's readline doesn't work there, is my current excuse 20:10:54 so WinHugs is a better interface 20:10:56 never really missed it myself 20:11:34 cmd.exe remembers prior commands by itself and that's sufficed for me 20:12:05 i'm talking about the haskell toplevel 20:12:23 oerjan: yes 20:12:24 he is 20:12:24 oerjan, in erlang, compiled to native code using hipe, it takes about 9 seconds (clock: count aloud). This is on my 64-bit Sempron 3300+ (2 GHz) 20:12:26 cmd.exe retains history 20:12:28 for everything 20:12:35 you can just use ghc in cmd.exe 20:12:44 huh 20:12:49 i didn't know that 20:13:04 tusho, how would that work with cygwin? and ncurses apps under cygwin 20:13:07 * AnMaster shudders 20:13:08 you lose stuff like tab completion and ^U and such from readline, I guess 20:13:13 AnMaster: It wouldn't. 20:13:16 AnMaster: You just use xterm. 20:13:20 I've never used cmd.exe with cygwin 20:13:26 -!- Mony has quit ("Ne regrettons pas le passé, ne nous préoccupons pas de l'avenir : le sage vit dans le présent."). 20:14:39 hm wait i remember something 20:14:45 http://dagobah.biz/flash/light-bot.swf forgot to paste 20:15:00 there is a faster way to check primitive roots once you know the factorization of p-1 20:15:07 i scored 194, didn't even realize the commands were counted, so i'll improve if someone gets a better score 20:15:45 I couldn't do the second-last (IIRC) 20:15:59 because you can check only the factors of p-1 as powers 20:16:03 it's trivial 20:16:28 f2 goes 4 steps forward, f1 does two f2's, and turns & jumps, main just loops f1 20:16:51 you have to turn in alternating directions, no? 20:16:55 71358600: 2 2 2 3 5 5 118931 20:17:01 oerjan, no 7 there... 20:17:06 i didn't even consider the possibility someone couldn't pass it :P 20:17:13 Deewiant: yes, hardcode the other dir in main 20:17:14 that's not what i meant 20:17:25 oerjan, oh well, what did you mean then? 20:17:29 i just repasted for reference 20:17:41 oklopod: I ran out of space 20:17:41 then again adapting to weird flash games fast is my specialty 20:17:56 maybe I did something stupidly but that sounds like pretty much exactly what I did, and I ran out of space :-P 20:18:14 you need only check 7^n for n = 71358600/2, 71358600/3, 71358600/5 and 71358600/118931 20:18:20 i think i had like a third of the cells empty 20:18:44 oerjan, you do that? :) 20:18:44 because if neither of those rem to 1, then the whole of 71358600 must be the smallest 20:18:59 looks like there's no way to skip to that level 20:19:05 so I can't be bothered to take another look 20:19:12 understandable 20:19:18 it's a very annoying ui 20:19:23 oerjan, since 7^71358600 seems to take ages to compute 20:19:39 Deewiant, oklopod: Please tell a user without flash wtf you are talking about? 20:19:48 AnMaster: a game 20:19:52 you program this bot 20:19:55 oklopod, details? screenshot? 20:20:01 in a very simple language 20:20:04 not very interesting really 20:20:04 hm ok 20:20:49 gah indeed 20:20:59 oerjan, ? 20:21:01 i disagree, it's just the levels suck. 20:21:15 if it had recursion or something else it would be cool 20:21:19 i'm sure that's a very interesting problem, although i haven't proven it :P 20:21:24 as it is... meh 20:21:24 need to use the mod at each step trick together with binary powering 20:21:34 well it's no programming, because there's no control, indeed 20:21:56 oerjan, ah 7^71358600 is one of those too large to fit into a computer? 20:21:58 but it's a working concept, it has some computational issues 20:22:02 which means writing my own power function 20:22:18 oerjan, doesn't haskell have some ready made for that? 20:22:19 AnMaster: er, that too i guess 20:22:32 not with automatic modulus 20:22:52 hm... 20:23:07 oerjan, assume I don't know haskell, maybe I will try to learn it once I actually understood scheme macros ;P 20:23:15 I find them awfully confusing 20:23:39 actually i _could_ write a datatype for mod 71358601 calculations 20:23:41 scheme macros aren't very like Haskell... 20:23:59 then the power function would be automatic but i would have to write the rest 20:24:16 ais523: but they are simple 20:24:29 monads aren't, they are an impossible concept to grasp 20:24:34 no one gets them 20:25:29 i get them 20:26:06 tusho: don't give AnMaster false hope. 20:26:15 oklopod: but it'll be amusing 20:26:38 ais523, I never claimed they were 20:26:39 ... 20:26:49 ais523, it is just that I want to finish one thing before I start another 20:28:04 * oerjan actually did that, even if it sounded silly 20:28:15 oerjan, did what? 20:28:24 Main> [(Mods 7)^n| x <- [2,3,5,118931], let n = 71358601 `quot` x] 20:28:24 [Mods 71358600,Mods 56502137,Mods 13189798,Mods 68358277] :: [Mods] 20:28:37 oerjan, err? 20:29:16 i made a Mods datatype that implemented mod 71358601 multiplication and almost nothing else, then the ordinary haskell ^ worked on it :D 20:29:32 oerjan, interesting 20:29:39 and makes haskell look really insane 20:30:33 data Mods = Mods Integer deriving (Show, Eq) 20:30:33 instance Num Mods where fromInteger n = Mods (n `rem` 71358601) (Mods m) * (Mods n) = Mods ((m*n) `rem` 71358601) 20:32:08 and this is one of the _simple_ uses of haskell type classes 20:32:35 there are far more insane things involving it 20:33:27 anyway that above was my check, it took less than a second to execute 20:34:07 7 passes by the fact that none of the list elements are Mod 1 20:38:16 -!- CO2Games has joined. 20:41:52 ah also: 20:41:54 10*(y+1/3) - 1/3 20:42:08 is a way of rewriting 10*y+3 20:43:33 it implies that with respect to any modulus p where division by 3 makes sense, you can shift y to remove the addition. 20:43:51 that means any p not divisible by 3 itself 20:44:35 in other words, after shifting this whole problem really does become just iterated multiplication by 10 20:45:07 what problem are you actually trying to solve? 20:45:15 um now what is the equivalence of 1/3 (mod 71358601) 20:45:52 -!- kr4shr has joined. 20:47:44 47572401 * 3 == 1 (mod  71358601) 20:48:08 so 1/3 == 47572401 for this purpose 20:49:00 Judofyr: AnMaster found some interesting repeating behavior when calculating gcd's: see http://rafb.net/p/i3RhgM20.html 20:49:52 so we got into explaining that, and ended up with primitive roots and stuff 20:50:01 -!- kr4shr has quit (Connection reset by peer). 20:51:43 anyway that above was my check, it took less than a second to execute 20:51:43 7 passes by the fact that none of the list elements are Mod 1 20:51:58 does that mean that 7 wasn't a valid result? 20:52:10 no, that means 7 is a primitive root 20:52:14 ah 20:52:29 :) 20:52:52 since 7^n is _not_ 1 for those n's tested there, the smallest possibility remaining is the one we want, 71358600 20:52:55 47572401 * 3 == 1 (mod [007F] 71358601) <--?? 20:53:10 what was that char I'm missing? 20:53:14 oh 20:53:15 utf8 encoded? 20:53:51 i think that was a ^V that happened when i got confused about cut/paste between windows and xterm. i didn't see it myself. 20:54:13 oh ok 20:54:17 does this look the same: ? 20:54:29 oh wait 20:54:34 oerjan, that is a question mark 20:54:37 or maybe this:  ? 20:54:39 ah yes 20:54:56 that was a ^V followed by delete 20:54:58 [007F] 20:55:19 ^V inserts a character literally in irssi i think 20:55:48 oerjan, ^V in most terminals means "treat next char as literal, not escape code" iirc 20:56:03 not sure if that is terminal or app 20:56:04 control-shift-V is paste in gnome-terminal 20:56:27 ^V^C in bash in console inserts a literal ^C, that is one char wide according to arrow keys 20:56:55 irssi is sort of bash or emacs inspired i think 20:57:33 definitely not emacs I'd say 20:57:39 can't stand it's key bindings 20:57:53 bash's keybindings are loosely based on Emacs 20:57:53 ais523, how goes gcc-bf? 20:57:57 because it uses readline 20:58:02 and why are you not on your laptop 20:58:07 AnMaster: not this week, it's a really bad week for me to do other things 20:58:08 ah it's readline then 20:58:21 ais523, yes unless you use set -o vi 20:58:22 and I didn't bring it with me because I was giving people a tour of Birmingham City Center 20:58:42 AnMaster: would that mean that typing h would move the cursor to the left? That would be pretty hard to use in a shell... 20:58:50 ais523, I got no clue 20:58:52 I never tried 20:59:01 anyway it may be set +o vi 20:59:02 too 20:59:09 ais523_: maybe you need some ESC characters too 20:59:53 ah 21:00:10 seems esc and a changes between the two modes in it yes 21:00:14 pretty confusing still 21:00:20 *worse* than real vi 21:00:24 which is confusing enough 21:00:34 real vi isn't too bad when you get used to it 21:00:40 but I haven't, so I find it confusing 21:00:48 I can see how it would be good if I ever learnt it, though 21:00:52 ais523, same, nano or emacs for me 21:01:04 ais523, oh and vi *really really* sucks on dvorak 21:01:13 emacs does that too, but not as much 21:01:41 in fact many apps seem to assume qwerty in their key bindings 21:01:44 which sucks 21:01:55 I wonder: is zsh' "bindkey -v" better than Bash's Vi mode? 21:02:08 heh, hjkl has got to be awkward then 21:02:16 oerjan, well yes it would be 21:02:27 Not being a Vi user, I can't exactly comment. 21:02:33 pikhq, nor am I 21:02:39 you use emacs pikhq ? 21:02:40 :) 21:02:48 Indeed, I do. 21:02:51 And I use zsh. 21:02:54 pikhq: hjkl are the basic cursor movement commands in vi (although nowadays you can use arrow keys too) 21:02:58 The Emacs of shells. :) 21:03:02 -pikhq- VERSION irssi v0.8.12 - running on Linux x86_64 21:03:02 wtf 21:03:10 I don't use it as my IRC client. 21:03:10 use the power of emacs like I do 21:03:17 maybe it should use NetHack-keys too 21:03:17 -AnMaster- VERSION ERC Version 5.3 - an IRC client for emacs (http://emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/ERC (mailing list: erc-discuss@gnu.org)) 21:03:22 I use Emacs as my editor. 21:03:22 where yubn go diagonally 21:03:36 and I use a whole load of editors 21:03:40 ais523, I use numpad in nethack 21:03:51 Emacs, gedit, kate, notepad, vim.tiny, nano, cat, sed 21:03:57 AnMaster: my laptop doesn't have a numpad 21:04:05 ais523, ah true for a laptop... 21:04:09 painful 21:04:19 ais523, which is why I use a full size PC keyboard 21:04:21 not really 21:04:24 I like hjklyubn 21:04:35 although 21:04:41 jkl;uinm would be better 21:04:48 because then the right hand could stay in the usual home position 21:04:51 yeah anyone noticed me writing 7q45t before? :D 21:05:00 home position being one to the left in vi and NetHack is really confusing... 21:05:05 ais523, jkluiom,. you mean? 21:05:14 or top to bottom 21:05:15 (that's what happens when i /quit and forget i have numpad on) 21:05:18 AnMaster: heh, different keyboard layout 21:05:23 uio jkl m,. 21:05:30 following same diagonal 21:05:47 AnMaster: no, NetHack letter keys don't work like that 21:05:49 with i at the top 21:05:58 the left down up right are all in a row 21:06:10 so you can have one on each of the non-thumb fingers on the right hand 21:06:12 ais523, yes that is even more confusing 21:06:15 789uiojkl 21:06:17 long live wasd 21:06:18 and the diagonals are positioned to be easy to reach with the index finger 21:06:22 and arrow keys 21:06:23 :) 21:06:40 wasd is awful, how are you meant to press the s without moving your hand position? 21:06:59 when I wrote games when I was younger, I generally used zx.; 21:07:04 to have left-right and up-down on different hands 21:07:18 ais523, err easy, you the 3 middle fingers on a s d, then you can move the middle one up to w if you need 21:07:50 * AnMaster waits as ais523 try it out 21:08:03 well? 21:08:15 ais523, works well doesn't it? 21:08:34 anyway if time is critical I would use a joystick 21:08:56 http://www.ozhardware.com.au/images/stories/review_images/Input%20Devices/Saitek%20X52%20Pro/x52top.jpg <-- something like that 21:09:02 (I own one of those) 21:10:13 Joysticks suck 21:10:13 11 axes and something like 35 buttons, though not as many physical buttons (for example those switches at the base of the joystick register as one button when moved up, and another when moved down) 21:10:17 tusho, depends 21:10:25 tusho, for flight sim they rock :) 21:10:37 but flight sims are terminally boring :P 21:10:49 tusho, + this one doesn't have noisy potentiometers (spelling?) 21:10:53 it use the hall effect 21:10:59 AnMaster: you spelt it correctly 21:11:10 tusho, so no irritating noise either 21:11:57 hmm... maybe someone could make an editor where the keyboard just inserted and backspaced text, and cursor movement, etc., was done with a joystick 21:12:23 ais523, implemented in intercal? 21:17:24 * oklopod wants a 4-dimensional flight simulator 21:18:06 oklopod: AWESOME 21:18:06 write it 21:18:51 i should, it's just i've yet to write even a 3-dimensional physics engine. 21:19:12 and for some reason there isn't that much material about 4-dimensional physics. 21:19:22 well, n-dimensional 21:19:44 i don't see why anyone would care about techniques for such an arbitrary number of dimensions as 3 21:20:24 well, a generic n-dimensional physics engine would most likely be just as simple to write as a 3d one, it's just it might be a bit hard to debug 21:20:40 the problem is showing it onscreen 21:20:56 maybe typical 3D graphics techniques can be used to project 4 dimensions onto 3 21:20:58 you can project twice 21:21:00 and then 3 onto 2 21:21:00 oklopod: i think it's some nonsense about gravitational orbits being strangely stable in 3 dimensions, or something 21:21:01 for a screen 21:21:03 yes 21:21:07 that works, £ ais523 21:21:10 *@ ais523 21:21:17 yeah 21:21:25 oklopod: what keyboard has £ next to @? 21:21:25 either 4->3->2 or two projections of 3->2 21:21:28 oerjan: i see, i didn't know that 21:21:32 ais523_: british ones 21:21:38 2 (shift=@) 21:21:39 shift-3 is £ on a UK keyboard, shift-2 is @ on a US keyboard 21:21:40 3 (shift=£) 21:21:47 ais523_: british mac ones 21:21:47 :-P 21:21:47 but shift-2 is " on a UK keyboard 21:21:53 Finnish keyboard has altgr-2 = @, altgr-3 = £. 21:21:54 ais523_: not in os x 21:21:57 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823200010 <-- is it a keyboard... or a keyboard? 21:21:58 ah 21:21:59 alt-gr + 2 = @ 21:21:59 or both? 21:22:00 :D 21:22:01 fizzie: thats more likely 21:22:02 shift + 2 = " 21:22:21 AnMaster: That'd be HELL for your wrists! 21:22:26 tusho, yeah 21:22:28 Nowhere to rest when typing... 21:22:33 Unless it's retractable? 21:22:36 tusho, unless you can retract it 21:22:37 well no idea 21:22:40 snap 21:22:41 tusho, I just saw that 21:22:42 hmm 21:22:43 it LOOKS retractable 21:22:46 http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?Image=23-200-010-01.jpg&S7ImageFlag=0&WaterMark=1&Item=N82E16823200010&Depa=0&Description=Creative%20Gray%2fBlack%20Keyboard 21:22:46 There are lots of ways to project 4-dimensional things to 3d or 2d. None of them produce anything I can really grasp, but at least it's pretty pictures. 21:22:57 tusho, pretty low res image 21:22:58 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 21:23:08 fizzie: you would probably learn, at least to some extent 21:23:17 i mean, if you actually "lived" in the world for a while 21:23:20 I've used one of Creative's Prodikeys keyboards. 21:23:21 and by that i mean manouvered 21:23:51 It's not retractable, but there's a removable plastic cover working as wrist-rest on top of the piano-keyboard part. 21:24:01 At least in the model I've seen. 21:24:04 Not sure about that one. 21:24:09 meh 21:24:11 just get a seperate synth 21:24:12 :-P 21:24:20 oklopod: if you lived in it your retina would probably be 3-dimensional 21:25:40 I seem to remember there being some physics things that didn't work all too well for even number of dimensions, but no recollection of the details. 21:25:59 fizzie: presumably because they arose in a 3d universe 21:26:20 tusho: huh? 21:26:36 oerjan: i was not talking about actual living. 21:26:38 tusho, same 21:26:45 more like moving a game character around 21:26:48 in fact I got a separate synth 21:26:59 http://www.etcetera.co.uk/products/images/ProdikeysInfoBG.jpg 21:27:28 Oh, there's the plastic cover. 21:27:50 fizzie, I still think it would be awful 21:28:44 http://images.techtree.com/ttimages/story/72065_prodikey_dm_big_picture_resize.jpg <-- that one looks slightly better 21:28:48 not same model 21:29:07 ah, that plastic cover 21:29:12 would be fine, except it needs moar padding 21:29:16 tusho, yes 21:29:28 the other plastic cover looks awful though 21:39:09 Oh, that one looks a lot more like the one I used. 21:39:16 And it wasn't _mine_, I just had to use it. 21:39:27 The jews forced you to use it. 21:39:51 There was that second pitch-wheel-type control, at least. 21:47:39 DO CONTINUATIONS DREAM OF MONADIC SHEEP 21:48:10 i never got an answer to that 21:48:17 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | befunge is a hybrid of several things. 21:48:21 I don't know, unfortunately 21:48:27 optbot: Which things? 21:48:28 fizzie: time xor ref print chr int ord lc 21:48:45 ARE THERE ANY CONTINUATIONS HERE WHO COULD TELL US? 21:48:46 * ais523_ wonders how many of those things are part of befunge 21:48:46 That's an... interesting definition of Befunge. 21:49:15 hmm... I don't know if continuations dream 21:49:15 -!- megatron has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:49:28 maybe they live in serene grace, ready to tweak the time flow 21:49:30 ais523_: the elder god things are not technically part of it. but don't let that reassure you. 21:49:41 or maybe they live in perpetual fear of being garbage-collected 21:49:50 ouch 21:50:00 how does unlambda.i do continuations anyway? CPS? 21:50:13 it might be interesting to make a version that uses my INTERCAL continuation library 21:50:37 continuations are a structure on the heap iirc 21:50:52 I must work on that enhancement to INTERCAL which lets you do first-class functions 21:50:57 but without garbage collection 21:51:37 basically it would create virtual programs 21:51:50 like the real one but where the ignorance status of some variables was "stuck" and they couldn't be remembered 21:52:01 the virtual programs could steal control from the real one using NEXT FROM 21:52:04 or COME FROM 21:52:11 and likewise the real program could steal back control 21:52:29 but that only happened if a virtual program could do a COME FROM but the real one couldn't 21:52:50 then, you can use stuck variables to implement lambdas, although you have to generate names for the anonymous functions at runtime 21:53:01 I'm not entirely certain how function return would work yet, though 21:53:49 probably have the NEXT stack work out which world it's in 21:54:09 and with a bit of trickery you could get infinite recursion by maintaing stacks oneself 21:54:16 garbage collection would be a pain, though 21:54:43 PLEASE NOTE 3=TOP 2=BOTH 1=LAST 21:55:04 i think those are the tag numbers for the continuation cells 21:56:05 -!- moozilla has quit ("- nbs-irc 2.37 - www.nbs-irc.net -"). 21:56:42 -!- moozilla has joined. 21:57:05 * ais523_ ponders the thought of getting gcc to generate INTERCAL 21:57:18 I think it would work better than gcc-bf, INTERCAL's more asm-like than BF is 21:57:33 for instance it is capable of dereferencing pointers efficiently, something BF is really bad at 21:58:35 running out of line numbers would be a potential problem 21:58:50 and I'd have to maintain the call stack by hand, I think 22:01:27 optbot: Are you funny ? 22:01:29 KingOfKarlsruhe: s 22:06:42 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:12:07 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:14:57 -!- creepa has joined. 22:15:08 -!- creepa has left (?). 22:16:54 ais523, why no garbage collection? 22:17:04 ais523, anyway you could solve that, allow some sort of free() 22:17:09 no GC needed 22:17:41 or? 22:17:43 for higher-order first class functions, free() is generally insufficient 22:17:52 oerjan, why is that? 22:17:55 because lifetime gets too unpredictable 22:18:09 oerjan, free it when you are done with it? 22:18:36 or? 22:18:54 AnMaster: what I mean is, most functional langs do GC 22:18:58 but functional INTERCAL wouldn't 22:19:02 ais523, yes they do 22:19:06 I will allow some sort of free, not sure how though 22:19:17 ais523, also I think a.l.i would hate if you made it functional! 22:19:22 really really hate you 22:19:29 heh, no they wouldn't, as long as it wasn't obviously functional 22:19:36 ais523, really? 22:19:48 AnMaster: a higher-order function may not know who is responsible for freeing a function 22:19:50 I was just going to add a language feature that gave INTERCAL some way of doing first-class functions if you're willing to go through convolutions 22:20:02 CLC-INTERCAL supports classes, and Claudio wasn't hated for that 22:21:52 ais523, wait... does this mean intercal could have functions like map and such? 22:22:17 ais523, yes and lectures 22:22:20 yes, if you could deal with the gc issues 22:22:24 they'd take a while to write 22:22:32 ais523, actually how does the lecture differ from normal classes and objects? 22:22:36 but classes & lectures is an object-orientation system really 22:22:39 just the name or? 22:22:51 well you don't use it quite the same way 22:23:01 you never specify explicitly which class an object is in 22:23:11 instead you specify a few lectures (=methods) that you want the class to have 22:23:20 and then? 22:23:22 object=student, by the way 22:23:29 and then it picks a class which implements all of those methods 22:23:41 inheritance is possible too some way I think, I've forgotten how though 22:23:46 and polymorphism works fine 22:23:49 ais523, hehe 22:24:11 one unusual restriction is that all the lecture names have to be valid as times 22:24:15 such as (0930) 22:24:17 ais523, I was reading a.l.i on google and come across calls, (phone calls) 22:24:21 very... nice touch 22:24:39 ais523, or 0931? 22:24:43 or how? 22:24:45 that would be fine too 22:24:52 but times that are too late are rejected 22:25:02 because the interp doesn't want to have to go to a lecture at midnight or so 22:25:03 ais523, you mean like 1830? 22:25:12 1830 is probably fine 22:25:14 what about lectures that are too close? 22:25:15 2330 wouldn't be 22:25:20 ais523, heh 22:25:30 oerjan: I don't think those are detected, maybe they ought to be though 22:26:10 you could have short ones 22:26:15 for example 15 minutes 22:27:33 ais523, anyway making intercal functional would be nice yeah 22:27:36 as for gc for map 22:27:44 how is that hard really? 22:27:53 you create the function, call map, free it 22:28:00 or? 22:28:18 ais523, ? 22:28:42 I don't think it's too hard 22:28:50 the problem comes if you want to use the same argument in more than one place 22:28:56 in a lang like Unlambda it's easy 22:29:18 ais523, create the function again each time? 22:29:29 yes, deep-copy when duplicating is one way it would work 22:29:34 except that's an utter pain to do 22:29:40 and very inefficient 22:29:41 ais523, why duplicate it? 22:29:55 AnMaster: otherwise you have problems figuring out where to free it 22:30:01 you can free it either in the called function or the caller 22:30:03 ais523, if I malloc a block in C it is up to me to free it 22:30:06 but neither works properly 22:30:08 AnMaster: I know 22:30:17 functional programs are a real pain to write in C without boehm-gc or similar 22:30:49 ais523, if I create a fun in erlang (yes gc...) I can often easily say when it would be out of scope 22:31:07 at least functions in argument lists that are just called should be easy 22:31:12 like in map 22:31:18 caller can just free it on return of map 22:31:44 if it returns a function, then you can free it when you are done with it 22:31:59 or if you plan to reuse the function often, just let it hang around 22:32:14 like a fun pointing to a function implemented in a module in erlang 22:32:23 fun module:name/arity 22:32:28 in contrast with: 22:32:53 fun(x) -> x * x end. 22:32:56 caller freeing seems to make the most sense 22:33:39 ais523, yeah basically same style as you do with malloc/free in C when possible 22:34:00 well, I seem to have screwed it up 22:34:08 look at all the memory leaks in C-INTERCAL for instance 22:34:22 hmm... problem 22:34:24 (actually I often try to avoid it totally by using on stack variables if they are small and of known size, much easier to manage) 22:34:33 ais523, ? 22:34:34 suppose you build a data structure, like a binary tree, out of functions 22:34:42 and you have a function that traverses it recursively 22:34:50 and you want to traverse the tree twice 22:35:05 how do you know not to free the nodes of the tree the first time round? 22:35:43 ais523, suppose you malloc nodes in a linked list with downlinks in C... You use a function to traverse it several times, how do you know how to not free the first time? 22:35:58 in C you know the control flow of your program, so you hardcode it 22:36:01 in fact I would use a final free function that traversed the structure and freed 22:36:13 ais523, and this isn't possible in intercal? 22:36:14 in a functional lang you don't generally know the structure of the functions you're manipulating 22:36:22 hm 22:36:27 it's easily possible in INTERCAL 22:36:35 just functional langs really don't like manual malloc/free 22:36:42 because ther information about what needs freeing gets lost easilt 22:36:44 *easily 22:36:54 ais523, so A(tree); B(tree); C(tree); freerecursive(tree); 22:36:58 yep 22:37:09 now suppose you're using map on a list of trees 22:37:15 how does map know not to free the trees? 22:37:24 ais523, why would map free it? 22:37:34 well map(free, tree); would 22:37:35 ah, ok, so nothing ever frees automatically 22:37:38 obviously 22:37:45 map(a, tree); wouldn't 22:37:50 ais523, like in C :) 22:38:25 ais523, you need intercalgrind too I guess ;P 22:38:40 shouldn't be too hard, actually 22:38:49 INTERCAL is one of the langs where that sort of thing would be easiest to hook onto a program 22:38:56 you NEXT FROM malloc and free, and double-return 22:39:01 so the original malloc and free never get to run 22:39:08 -!- danopia has joined. 22:39:15 hi danopia 22:39:37 hi 22:39:39 ais523, well obviously you would have to translate it to intercalish terms 22:40:00 probably I'd just call it calgrind 22:40:13 hmm... maybe I could even write a garbage-collector for INTERCAL 22:40:21 it would have to know what was and what wasn't a pointer somehow, though 22:40:27 ais523, I think GC is often the wrong answer to most problems 22:40:55 there are better ways, like proper resource mangaging, and using valgrind before each commit to make sure you haven't introduced new leaks 22:40:56 heh, spoken like a true C programmer, but I agree to some extent 22:41:03 easier to fix it then 22:41:18 I saw a paper arguing that programming in languages with GC was about 10 times faster than programming in languages without 22:42:04 ais523, very possible, and I'm fine with GC in erlang. But intercal will never be a pure functional language (which erlang almost is, with a few exceptions: process dictionary, eds tables) 22:42:28 AnMaster: never write "intercal will never be" in a sentence again 22:42:45 ais523, pure functional would indicate single assignment 22:42:52 I don't think that is realistic 22:43:05 ais523, and yes with single assignment you do need gc 22:43:06 well I have plans to remove assignment from INTERCAL altogether 22:43:22 which involve effective single assignment, but without changing the variable name 22:43:22 ais523, that would break existing apps 22:43:32 no, it wouldn't, that's the clever part 22:43:32 so would have to be optional 22:43:37 ais523, err what? 22:43:59 basically, beforehand, .1 <- .1 $ .2 assigns the mingle of onespot 1 and onespot 2 to onespot 1 22:44:04 which is simple enough 22:44:16 yes 22:44:36 in the new system, .1 <- .1 $ .2 solves the equation (new value of onespot 1) = (old value of onespot 1 mingle old value of onespot 2) 22:44:41 well obviously you could translate it to SSA internally, GCC does that iirc 22:44:50 the arrowhead means that the .1 on the left refers to the new value 22:44:58 and - causes both sides to become equal by changing only new values 22:45:05 err 22:45:13 ais523, that is in effect mutable variables 22:45:42 so writing .1 - .1 $> .2 would instead find a new value of .2 that was a right-invariant for .1 under mingling 22:45:47 you could say x = x + y; solves the equation for a new x 22:45:59 in effect x2 = x1 + y1; 22:46:00 however 22:46:09 that is the exact same thing as mutable variable 22:46:23 the reason is that in complicated stuff like .1 $> .1 <- .2 $> .1 22:46:33 ais523, I don't understand that 22:46:33 there's clearly an "old .1" and a "new .1" 22:46:51 I can't code intercal remember 22:47:05 it means solve o1 mingle n1 = o2 mingle n1 for n1 22:47:13 ah interesting 22:48:04 1> 2 + 2 = 3 + 1. 22:48:04 4 22:48:07 ais523, somewhat like that? 22:48:20 2> 2 + 4 = 3 + 1. 22:48:21 ** exception error: no match of right hand side value 4 22:48:37 pattern matching 22:48:42 it rocks :) 22:49:19 not exactly 22:49:21 it's more equation solving 22:49:27 like 4 * x = x + 2 22:49:33 I'm not sure of an efficient way to do it 22:49:40 and may have to use brute-force as a fallback strategy 22:49:48 still, I think addition can be written in one statement using that 22:50:04 ais523, CAS manages it just fine? 22:50:12 like maxima 22:50:55 i am not quite sure whether ais523_ wants to embed a CAS in the INTERCAL compiler 22:51:20 what's CAS? 22:51:29 Computer Algebra System 22:51:37 yes, I think that's exactly what I'll have to do 22:51:46 that's why I've held off on implementing it... 22:51:48 also, mingle and select may not necessarily behave as nicely as ring and field operations 22:51:49 (%i1) solve([4 * x = x + 2], [x]); 22:51:49 2 22:51:49 (%o1) [x = -] 22:51:49 3 22:52:13 oerjan: mingle is easy if you calculate at the level of the individual bits, the unaries are alright, select is a pain though 22:52:15 using the existing wheel i see; i recommend writing the solver yourself 22:52:36 $$[x=\frac{2}{3}]$$ 22:52:37 as tex 22:52:38 what's the opposite of reinventing the wheel? 22:52:40 maxima can do that 22:52:41 :) 22:52:53 oklopod: using an existing wheel? 22:53:00 and I'd like to see maxima handle iselect 22:53:02 i guess 22:53:05 oklopod: book burning. again. 22:53:15 ais523, no clue about that 22:53:16 and well 22:53:18 (that's the C name for the operator, we couldn't use just "select" for obvious reasons) 22:53:25 ais523_, maxima is common lisp 22:53:30 I bet that doesn't work on DOS 22:53:38 oerjan: i like that 22:53:43 why couldn't LISP work on DOS? 22:53:47 I have Emacs working on DOS 22:53:55 and if elisp works I don't see why common lisp wouldn't 22:54:00 -!- CO2Games has left (?). 22:54:01 although i guess it would have to be more like "burning the books" 22:54:03 ais523_, it works with sbcl, clisp and gcl iirc 22:54:06 no other ones 22:54:41 actually 22:54:45 a few more maybe 22:54:48 well it should be possible to port 22:54:54 oklopod: also, instead of running over people you end up burning them. 22:55:00 just because an individual program hasn't been ported doesn't mean it isn't possible... 22:55:22 oerjan: i don't get that. 22:55:36 ais523, in fact: clisp, cmucl, scl, gcl, acl, openmcl, sbcl 22:55:44 please use some of your 3% of non-punny messages to explain 22:55:55 "Wo man Bcher brennt, brennt man sofort auch Menschen." iirc 22:56:04 ais523, according to the /usr/bin/maxima wrapper 22:56:07 aahh 22:56:10 ais523, anyway I suspect this is totally insane 22:56:14 " please use some of your 3% of non-punny messages to explain" would make a good sig 22:56:18 ais523, too insane for intercal even 22:56:18 AnMaster: yes, and? 22:56:19 really 22:56:28 sig? :) 22:56:30 AnMaster: you are missing the point 22:57:03 ais523_, no, I just think that went way too far. Next you are going to solve differential equations too 22:57:26 AnMaster: you are still missing the point... 22:57:32 ais523, also maxima is not fast. maybe not as slow as mathematica but...? 22:57:46 well, most likely I'll write my own algebra engine 22:57:52 that can handle INTERCAL stuff 22:57:52 ais523, it can export algorithms as fortran code though :) 22:58:05 never tried that 22:58:06 I suspect I'll end up brute-forcing the really weird stuff anyway, though 22:58:13 65536 possibilities isn't all that many to try 22:58:13 if ghc could use Perl for its Evil Mangler, why can't INTERCAL use Maxima/C.L. 22:58:18 although 4294967296 probably would be 22:58:21 ais523, two-stop? 22:58:31 or whatever the name is 22:58:34 and twospot 22:58:38 ah right 22:58:40 because the sigil is a : 22:58:50 also, if you're assigning two onespot variables at once 22:58:56 ais523: sig? :) 22:59:03 ais523, with unicode fourspot would work 22:59:17 yes, I've been thinking along those lines 22:59:25 ais523, 8-spot? 22:59:26 -!- oklopod has changed nick to oklocod. 22:59:43 INTERCAL would have threespot and fivespot too 23:00:00 ais523, err hm unicode with 3 dots I think exist 23:00:01 in fact given the typical INTERCAL behaviour it would stop at sevenspot 23:00:05 oerjan: ghc uses Literat ePerl 23:00:06 "index marker" or something like that 23:00:07 well, yes 23:00:08 *Literate Perl 23:00:12 which it invented on the spot 23:00:17 "the octonions are the crazy old uncle nobody lets out of the attic: they are nonassociative." 23:00:33 oklocod: actually, "Dort, wo man Bcher verbrennt, verbrennt man auch am Ende Menschen." says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_burning 23:00:38 ais523, seven-spot would be... 96? bits? 23:00:38 LiteRat ePerl sounds much nicer than literate perl 23:00:41 From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octonion under "Quotes". 23:01:03 err no 23:01:14 oerjan: yeah, i recognize the Ende there 23:01:17 112 23:01:19 112 bits 23:01:20 crazy 23:01:28 because that always seemed a bit of an ugly sentence structure 23:01:33 I like it 23:01:41 anyway, I used the word deinstitutionalizations earlier 23:01:47 I needed a 23-letter word for the FRC... 23:01:51 ais523, wtf does that mean 23:01:53 There's U+2059 "FIVE DOT PUNCTUATION" which has five dots arranged in a X shape. 23:01:56 and what is FRC? 23:02:06 RFC I know... 23:02:08 AnMaster: situations in which people are released from a hospital for mentally ill people 23:02:19 and FRC = Fantasy Rules Committee, a long-running email-based game 23:02:35 ais523, the rules are? 23:02:41 nomic? 23:02:48 If you stick U+20DC "COMBINING FOUR DOTS ABOVE" to U+2059, you get a nice nine-dot character. 23:03:09 AnMaster: technically it's a nomic but its rules rarely change, the nomicness is only used to improve them from time to time 23:03:10 fizzie, 144 bits? 23:03:30 oklocod: i think your opinions are a bit fishy at the moment 23:03:32 ah well I lost my interest in nomics 23:03:33 I was just looking at how many dots you can sensibly get from unicode without it looking ugly. 23:03:40 basically, anyone can submit a "fantasy rule"; the only effect that the fantasy rules have on gameplay is that they all have to be consistent with each other 23:03:50 fizzie, got a sample of the 9 dots? 23:03:59 and if you submit a rule and nobody else can come up with a rule consistent with all the existing ones for 14 days you win 23:04:09 there are various complications, but that's the heart of it 23:04:31 Maybe COMBINING THREE DOTS ABOVE + COMBINING TRIPLE UNDERDOT + FIVE DOT PUNCTUATION would look nice, and have 11 dots. 23:05:08 ais523, you could make easy rules, "do not eat the blue flashing grass" should be consistent with lots of existing rules 23:05:18 yes, you could 23:05:18 or maybe that isn't allowed 23:05:25 there are various unwritten rules 23:05:36 ais523, that forbid what I suggest? 23:05:42 also, many of the rules make statements like "All rules have a word that sets a new record for word length" 23:05:51 your example doesn't contain a 23-letter word 23:06:05 so it would be inconsistent with that rule, plus a rule that contained a 22-letter word 23:06:06 ais523, well if it was Swedish then it would be easy 23:06:15 we write words together to construct new ones 23:06:26 I one constructed a 56-letter word in Swedish 23:06:33 could probably have made it longer 23:06:39 that long is uncommon though 23:06:57 you can get composite nouns of any length trivially 23:07:13 oklocod, sure but in English you tend to use space between the parts 23:07:21 or maybe a dash 23:07:23 yes, but i'm takling about swedish 23:07:25 *talking 23:07:29 oklocod, indeed 23:07:42 english doesn't have a grammar, as i've explained before 23:07:52 if you wanna have a few nouns together 23:07:54 http://zem.fi/~fis/dots.html should have a 11-dot character if I'm right, but at least my browser doesn't want to render it right. The "three dots above" character overlaps a bit, and the "triple underdot" does not want to combine. 23:07:58 then just bash them into a nice bundle 23:08:03 no one cares what's in the middle 23:08:41 oklocod, I think it was of the lines of "car deformation zone engineer annual conference secretary ball-point pen tip" + a lot more and in one word 23:08:54 ⁙⃨⃛ 23:08:56 hm 23:08:56 stopp svenskfanordfrlengningsfascistpatriarkatet! 23:09:13 :) 23:09:17 haha 23:09:27 oerjan, doesn't Norwegian allow it too? 23:09:32 yes 23:09:33 of course :) 23:09:43 no idea about Finish 23:09:52 err is that 1 or 2 n? 23:09:57 in finish all words actually end the whole sentence 23:10:00 but it flows easier in swedish i think 23:10:08 so, you can't have composite nouns. 23:10:09 oklocod, ?? really? 23:10:14 wtf 23:10:19 no, that was a joke on n/nn 23:10:23 ah 23:10:26 n/nn is? 23:10:30 finnish is one of the composite nouniest languages 23:10:40 oerjan, I don't think "svenskfanordförlengningsfascistpatriarkatet" flows very easily 23:11:00 fanord <-- breaks flow for some reason 23:11:00 also you can get quite long words by just inflicting one word 23:11:07 between fan and ord 23:11:10 The 9-dot character at dots2.html seems to render more or less correctly; that one's five-dot-punctuation + combining-diaeresis + combining-diaeresis-below. 23:11:32 svensk is what breaks it 23:11:36 fizzie, so what did you change it 23:11:46 * AnMaster slaps oklocod with a stunned seagull 23:11:59 :-) 23:12:16 (if you get that literary reference: congrats!) 23:12:29 i donp't. 23:12:31 *don't 23:12:31 (it is very obscure trivia for that book) 23:12:44 AnMaster: Well, dots2.html uses just two dots above and below, since the amazing triple underdot does not combine around here. So it's less dots but better-looking. And actually dots.html had 12 dots, counted 5+4+3 wrong. 23:12:48 oklocod, Discworld series, book: Pyramids 23:13:25 very very obscure reference 23:13:38 AnMaster: i think he stole it from Monty Python 23:13:45 (I don't think most Discworld fans would realize it is a reference) 23:13:45 Something like "epäjärjestelmällistämättömyydelläänsäkäänköhän" is the traditional "long inflected single Finnish word", although I guess it's from dubious legality. 23:13:46 wait a minute i've read that book 23:13:57 oerjan, oh 23:13:58 ? 23:14:09 epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyydellänsäkäänköhän 23:14:10 fizzie, what does it mean? 23:14:12 there was some trout slapping 23:14:22 Zing! Vext cwm fly jabs Jurd qoph. 23:14:25 oerjan, ah no trout slapping in the discworld book 23:14:28 *Kurd 23:14:39 oerjan, that is what makes it so extremely obscure 23:14:44 but still, the inspiration is clear 23:15:02 also, there was that... epäkumarreksituteskenteleentuvaisehkollaismaisekkuudellisentelemättömyydellänsäkäänköpähän or something, but i doubt that means anything :P 23:15:14 ais523, lets see... ginz, text mwc ylf sabj drunj hope? 23:15:23 ais523, even if that is drunk... 23:15:43 ah way should be sbaj 23:15:45 epäjärjestelmällistyttämäättömyydellänsäkäänköhän isn't really even hard to parse, although i probably wouldn't use it actively 23:15:46 still no sense 23:15:51 *mättö 23:16:01 oklocod, now what do it mean? 23:16:05 oklocod: if you say so 23:16:15 does* 23:16:46 ais523, care to explain? knurd makes me think it is some disc world reference... but? 23:17:03 gniz btw 23:17:29 gniz texv mwc ylf sbaj drunk hpoq 23:17:30 no 23:17:34 even less sense 23:17:39 ais523, explain yourself 23:17:46 AnMaster: it's a pangram 23:17:47 järjestelmällistyttää would probably be like "to make systematic", although a weird connotation for that, so i guess "by making unsystematic (question suffix + suffix for third person)" 23:17:52 ais523, ?? 23:17:54 that's technically gramatically correct 23:17:55 ais523, what is that 23:18:03 Zing! Vext cwm fly jabs Kurd qoph 23:18:09 uses each of the 26 letters exactly once 23:18:13 oklocod, ugh 23:18:13 if I've remembered it correctly 23:18:16 oklocod, and the rest 23:18:19 you can't really translate it unless in a sentence 23:18:22 AnMaster: the rest? 23:18:27 the even longer one? 23:18:35 Japanese has a poem like that which makes a lot more sense, traditionally it was used to order the alphabet 23:18:41 oklocod, "epäjärjestelmällistämättömyydelläänsäkäänköhän" means "to make systematic"? 23:18:42 wtf 23:19:15 systematisera in Swedish them 23:19:16 then* 23:19:20 i translated it to "by making unsystematic", but there are a few constructs that would change the surrounding sentence in english, and not the word 23:19:29 oklocod, ah 23:19:31 still... 23:19:34 genom at göra unsystematik 23:19:36 or something 23:19:41 *att 23:19:47 oklocod, osystematisk too 23:19:52 un is English 23:19:52 right 23:19:58 well 23:19:59 even so 23:20:03 it is like crazy 23:20:15 oklocod: Are you sure it's that simple? I mean, there's already "järjestelmällistyttämättömyys" which is something like "not making something systematic" -- since it's not "järjestelmällistyttäminen" -- but also the "epä-" negation prefix in front. 23:20:20 the longer one i just saw that in an old book, i can't parse that, just memorized it. 23:20:34 ais523, and I bet you wish you could use some Nordic language in that nomic ;P 23:20:35 oklocod: And there are more suffixes than just those two. 23:20:39 fizzie: different 23:20:50 the other is "not making systematic", other is "making unsystematic" 23:20:55 so yes, i think it's that simple 23:21:17 and there are mor suffixes, but they cannot be translated, i say 23:21:23 oklocod, really nice language that even the natives can't parse 23:21:36 and if you disagree, i will /nick oklogod, and it will be futile 23:21:42 If I ever consider trying to learn Finish, please remind me not to! 23:22:00 finnish, unless you want another bad joke 23:22:09 oklocod, is it two n? 23:22:14 yes 23:22:29 no idea about Finish 23:22:29 err is that 1 or 2 n? 23:22:29 in finish all words actually end the whole sentence 23:22:31 well 23:22:33 fizzie: 23:22:35 actually 23:22:36 use that yourself then :P 23:22:38 oklocod: "epäjärjestelmällistyttäminen" would be something like "the act of making something unsystematic"; so shouldn't "epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyys" mean the avoidance of it? 23:22:38 i now see what you meant 23:22:50 the act of not making something unsystematic, of course 23:23:01 "Of course." 23:23:14 AnMaster: finish is the language where all sentences finish after one word 23:23:20 you know 23:23:21 finish 23:23:23 ah... 23:23:24 it's like, to end 23:23:38 oklocod, except I can't remember if it is Finnish of Finish, the spelling that is 23:23:40 for either of them 23:23:43 do you speak ennd? 23:23:49 so it makes that very confuing 23:24:14 it's all the suomi to me 23:24:27 fizzie, Finnish would make a good PRNG (or possibly even true RNG) if you just remove the dots over about half the ä in that ;P 23:24:59 I think I must sleeps now. 23:25:03 fizzie, same 23:25:06 night all 23:25:07 i should sleeping too 23:25:13 gotta wake up in 6 hours 23:25:20 =><= 23:25:27 and i've already been tired for a days 23:25:27 * ais523_ also plans to go home very shortly 23:25:39 ais523: is it 24/7 23:25:43 the place you're at 23:25:48 the Room 23:26:03 -!- ais523_ has quit ("mibbit.com: please use some of your 3% of non-punny messages to explain"). 23:27:47 well, didn't answer my question, but in fact answered a question i asked him many hours ago. 23:29:44 oklocod, ? 23:31:05 AnMaster: long story 23:31:07 sleep! -> 23:31:14 k 23:31:15 sane 23:31:16 same* 23:35:47 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:42:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 23:45:40 -!- Judofyr has quit. 2008-10-02: 00:56:43 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:07:02 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:07:28 Well, that was bizarre. 01:49:28 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit. 01:49:56 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 01:50:28 -!- hmetz has joined. 02:20:44 -!- metazilla has joined. 02:25:21 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:14:51 -!- oc2k1 has quit ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12"). 03:29:40 -!- moozilla has joined. 03:29:42 -!- metazilla has quit ("- nbs-irc 2.37 - www.nbs-irc.net -"). 03:48:17 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I'm not sure.. 04:02:20 -!- GregorR has quit ("Leaving"). 04:07:31 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:34:23 Maple sucks giant monkey balls. 04:41:14 D-8 04:41:21 Oh, the language, not the syrup. 04:54:02 Yeah. 05:45:21 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:49:26 But Maxima is freaking awesome. 05:49:49 Therefore, my 'Maple project' shall be done entirely from Maxima. 05:50:10 Thank you, professor, for saying "if you're familiar with another program, feel free to use it." 05:59:25 Mathematica is nice, if you don't mind the evil capitalist proprietarynessity of it. 06:00:13 I don't mind, as long as I get it for free 06:04:58 Mathematica might be nice. 06:05:12 Thing is, I actually have Maxima. ;) 06:05:21 And, of course, it helps that I know Maxima. 06:05:47 What's the project anyway? 06:06:42 Just plotting some parametric functions in 2d and 3d. Kinda stupid. 06:07:05 Do you even need any particular software for that? 06:07:14 Any free plotting software can do that 06:07:23 Yeah, yeah... 06:07:35 The idea was to make you familiar with the computer algebra system. 06:07:38 Kinda failed. 06:07:56 Hell, you could do it on a piece of paper! 06:08:16 Yes, except that he insists that it's done with a CAS. 06:08:30 CAS? 06:08:40 Computer algebra system. 06:08:46 Maxima, Mathematica, Maple, etc. 06:08:53 'kay 06:09:14 All I learned about Maple from that is that Maple truly sucks. 06:09:41 A valuable lesson 06:09:55 You might learn that Mathematica is also pretty terrible 06:10:07 Possibly. 06:28:41 -!- danopia has quit (Connection timed out). 06:29:13 -!- danopia has joined. 06:44:40 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:11:13 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 07:44:55 -!- danopia_ has joined. 07:55:34 i like maxima 07:56:24 cept it's kinda buggy 07:56:28 -!- danopia has quit (Connection timed out). 07:59:53 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:13:02 It seems that GNUplot, when generating Postscript, emits Postscript that computes the function being plotted. 08:13:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:13:05 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 08:13:08 This will be fun to print out... 08:13:09 ;) 08:33:51 At least the printer will have something interesting to do. 08:34:02 I would think just printing text all day long would be quite boring. 08:35:40 Although my "set term postscript; set out "test.ps"; plot sin(x)" test just generated a list of vertices. 08:36:57 Same for "plot x**2". 08:40:52 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 08:54:00 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:16:31 -!- danopia__ has joined. 09:24:18 -!- danopia_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:26:28 -!- Judofyr has joined. 09:30:32 -!- Hiato has joined. 09:31:06 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 09:47:43 -!- Judofyr has quit. 09:48:18 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | it's empty. 10:25:14 -!- mtve has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:27:28 -!- mtve has joined. 10:42:19 -!- mtve has quit ("Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5"). 10:57:07 -!- danopia__ has changed nick to danopia. 10:57:17 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol. 11:07:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:14:30 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 11:50:47 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 12:44:02 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:45:08 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:55:26 fungot, optbot: (Task -> Bool -> IO (Set String -> Set String -> Bool -> FilePath -> StateT DB (ReaderT Dat IO) Bool)) -> ([Bool],DB) -> Task -> ReaderT Dat IO ([Bool],DB) 12:55:26 Deewiant: what in particular did you like? have you seen squeak? 12:55:27 Deewiant: uh hi. 12:58:23 i don't think they like Haskell 12:58:24 As always, optbot has a more coherent answer than fungot. 12:58:24 fizzie: i guess plurals are out. 12:58:25 fizzie: i could certainly have picked wrong with this one... 13:01:32 fizzie: in this case, optbot also had a more coherent answer than Deewiant... 13:01:33 ais523: >_O 13:02:37 optbot is skynet! 13:02:39 oerjan: no one said the exact word. 13:02:45 optbot: i did 13:02:46 oerjan: Fine. 13:03:33 I was hoping for incisive comments about the type signature but fungot was just confused as usual and optbot decided to shut up 13:03:34 Deewiant: ( lambda ( x) 13:03:34 Deewiant: Yeah :D 13:03:43 ... need I say more? 13:04:04 Deewiant: well that's some type signature... 13:04:12 what is it the type signature of? 13:04:32 "needsBuildingWithDB" in my make-replacement 13:04:41 granted, I've expanded all the type synonyms 13:04:54 it doesn't look like that in the code itself 13:05:06 How does your make replacement work? How is it better than normal make? 13:05:15 * ais523 needs to figure out how to write AImake some time 13:05:22 it's very much like make itself 13:05:29 optbot: you can do AImake can't you? 13:05:31 oerjan: A -> b ',' A 13:06:14 1) it's a haskell library so (I hope that) it discourages hard-coding actions like "rm *.foo" which are platform-specific 13:06:47 2) it can use either timestamps or MD5 hashes to figure out whether to build something, user's choice 13:07:20 3) it can save a database of arguments you've used in the build and then rebuild if the arguments changed 13:07:36 other than that, it's pretty much make, I think. 13:07:42 hm, yes 13:07:45 AImake is more ambitious 13:07:55 the idea is to deduce everything about the project automatically 13:08:15 so for instance it messes with ldd to see which files are opened to automatically calculate dependencies 13:08:17 I still think that's impossible :-) 13:08:21 so files have dependencies on your compiler and so on too 13:08:38 and it uses nm to work out which sets of files have to be linked together to form an executable 13:08:42 how do you know what kind of library to build, or whether to build one, given a pile of C? 13:08:49 some things would be less general, and asking the user might be needed in some case 13:09:01 yeah, alright 13:09:03 and yes, that's an example where some user intervention would be needed 13:09:09 so it can't deduce /everything/ after all ;-) 13:09:17 but it would be as simple as either listing all the source files needed in the library 13:09:34 or more generally, listing all the functions the library needed to implement and letting AImake find their sources 13:13:06 hi tusho 14:23:26 -!- oklocod has joined. 14:27:30 oklocod: Re "epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyydelläänsäkäänköhän", I think some of those suffixes are both translateable and interesting. Like "-kään", which is sort of like "not even x": "aseella" -> with a gun, "aseellakaan" -> not even with a gun. (Example inspired by the recent school shooting thing.) 14:34:53 the question particle is hard to translate without context, but for instance "epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyydellänsäkäänköhän hän sai sen aikaan?" => "i wonder if he achieved it through his unsystematizing?" or something 14:35:01 umm 14:35:14 "epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyydellänsäkäänköhän hän sai sen aikaan?" => "i wonder if he achieved it through not unsystematizing?" 14:35:47 ("hän sai sen aikaan" means roughly "he achieved it", in case someone non-finnish is watching) 14:36:00 well, I'm watching 14:36:03 hmm 14:36:07 right, the "kään" suffic 14:36:09 *suffix 14:36:35 also, I'm not entirely sure what unsystematizing means, despite being native English 14:36:48 it seems to have too many suffixes piled on a word in a non-obvious way 14:37:02 ais523: Don't worry, we are native Finnish and don't seem understand that Finnish word either. 14:37:08 ais523: unsystematizing in pretty much any sense you can invent for it. 14:37:25 but, i'm not sure how "kään" + "köhän" works 14:37:45 köhän is a question particle you can only use on a word, to kinda wonder whether it fits there 14:37:51 It doesn't feel like it would work very well even in a simpler word. 14:38:08 well, it's like, a question, but more uncertain than a normal question 14:38:34 "näin" => "like this", "näinköhän" => "I wonder if it really goes like this". 14:38:57 hmm 14:39:12 i'm pretty sure you cannot have kään and köhän in the same sentence. 14:39:21 just cannot see how that would fit any sentence :| 14:39:40 (Well, for one meaning of "näin". It's also the first-person past tense of the verb "nähdä", 'to see'.) 14:39:45 "jalkakaankohan sinne ei mahdu" 14:39:53 i wonder if even a foot wouldn't fit there 14:39:54 but 14:39:58 that's not pretty 14:40:30 hmm... maybe Xkäänköhän = "it seems dubious that this couldn't even be done with X, is that right?2 14:40:32 s/2/"/ 14:41:02 aaaaaaaaaa 14:41:12 let's make a conlang again 14:41:13 Also I would have written it "jalkaakaankohan" which sort-of has the same meaning. I can't really explain the difference right now. 14:42:21 y/n 14:42:22 "Jalkakaan" sounds like "not even a particular, single foot", while "jalkaakaan" is more like "you can't even fit any part of a feet in there". 14:42:36 if Y -> #conteric 14:43:07 well, "jalkaa" is the partitive of "jalka" 14:43:22 so... yes, it means a part of the foot :P 14:43:25 well 14:43:33 it doesn't actually mean exactly that 14:43:45 because the finnish partitive is also used for plurals in certain contexts 14:45:46 "jalat" is the plural, "jalkoja" is the partitive of the plural, which kinda means "some feet", or just "feet" as opposed to "the feet"; "viisi jalkaa", five feet, would be the singular partitive, used when the amount is known 14:45:49 for plurals too 14:46:09 curiously, "yksi jalka", one foot, is singular nominative (neutral infliction) 14:46:17 HEY GUYZ CONLANG #conteric 14:46:37 tusho: we can have just as muuch fun wondering what the fuck the finns were thinking 14:46:40 *much 14:46:42 but k 14:46:51 oklocod: but this way we can have infinite loops in natural language 14:46:51 I'm not sure I want to be constructing a language since I don't even understand my own. 14:46:57 * oklocod is a joiner 14:47:03 fizzie: nor do I, and that's why this'll be hilarious 14:47:04 A uniter, not a divider. 14:47:16 uniter? 14:47:20 divider? 14:47:21 now get yer ass over there 14:47:22 tusho: I define "whifllopn" to have a meaning as defined by this sentence. 14:47:29 ais523: ... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 14:47:37 * tusho crashes 14:47:37 also, whifflopn 14:48:08 i want a natural language that's basically lambda calculus plus a lexicon containing sets of real-life objects and actions 14:48:22 oklocod: I think George W. Bush said that once. 14:48:33 oklocod: Then #conteric is for you. 14:48:36 AND FOR EVERYONE ELSE <333333333 14:48:37 fizzie: what? :P 14:48:48 oklocod: The "I'm a uniter, not a divider" one. 14:48:54 ah 14:48:56 haha 14:48:59 i preferred the other interp 14:49:03 oklocod: i want a natural language that's basically lambda calculus plus a lexicon containing sets of real-life objects and actions 14:49:03 [14:48] fizzie: oklocod: I think George W. Bush said that once. 14:49:05 hmm... if dubya was speaking in an English-like esolang and not English itself, it would explain a lot 14:49:16 ais523: ...y...you're right... 14:49:18 oh my god... 14:49:24 he's... actually a genius! 14:49:29 just..misunderstood... 14:49:35 * tusho EPIPHANY 14:49:41 fizzie: lol :D 14:49:43 A tusho-phany. 14:49:57 A konqueror? 14:50:24 ais523: No...like a fox... 14:50:27 on fire... 14:50:35 (Or a panda, if you stuff the two words together) 14:54:43 aaaaaaaaaaaaa 14:54:44 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 14:55:21 fffffffffffffffffffffffff 14:55:24 fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 14:57:32 -!- oerjan has quit ("Da kjeme ikkje pao talo!"). 14:58:09 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 14:58:54 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:05:38 -!- tusho has changed nick to ehird. 15:09:49 -!- optbot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:09:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:09:51 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:28:55 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:29:11 -!- ehird has joined. 15:29:39 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:29:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:29:54 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:30:09 -!- ehird has joined. 15:33:45 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:33:45 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:34:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:34:17 -!- ehird has joined. 15:36:27 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:36:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:36:43 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:36:58 -!- ehird has joined. 15:37:44 everyone: ping 15:37:55 -!- ehird has changed nick to tusho. 15:37:56 fungot: ping? 15:37:57 ais523: ummmm....... 15:37:59 hi ais523 15:38:02 ok, that's an answer 15:38:03 ofc we can talk though 15:38:05 same server 15:38:09 ah 15:38:11 good 15:38:11 hi fungot 15:38:12 ais523: you also have this example of high-level code, which you say are so delicious. the white part of the committee, but it's 15:38:15 hmm 15:38:17 we are lagged 15:38:19 i think 15:38:33 tusho: no 15:38:39 0-3 second ping times to #esoteric 15:38:48 [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from cmeme: 1222958306 seconds. 15:38:56 wtf is cmeme lying so badly about ping times? 15:39:21 -!- tusho has changed nick to ehird. 15:39:42 ais523: probably it sends the eunuchs timestamp 16:13:44 anyone who cares: the latest on the door situation is that they 'fixed' it and now it doesn't work at all 16:13:53 so they're calling in engineers tomorrow 16:14:19 meanwhile us people who have to use the computer lab simply make sure there's at least one person inside at any given moment 16:14:22 to open the door from the inside 16:14:27 until everyone leaves 16:23:10 ha 16:30:32 raising elephants is so utterly ominous... 16:33:44 ais523: what 16:33:59 ehird: it's a slight modification of a common Linux acronym 16:34:26 reisuo? 16:34:33 "raising elephants is so utterly boring" is the acronym to remember how to reboot down a Linux system manually 16:34:38 that's REISUB 16:34:45 lol wut 16:34:47 but in my case I've been using REISUO a bit recently 16:34:53 to shutdown rather than reboot 16:34:53 um 16:34:55 explain plz 16:34:58 because things have been getting borked 16:35:14 ehird: basically, you hold down alt, and press SysRq and the letters of the acronym alternately 16:35:18 ah 16:35:34 e.g. alt-sysrq-r-sysrq-e-sysrq-i and so on 16:35:44 each letter tells the system to do something 16:36:05 until after the u you have no programs running but the kernel, all the disks are set read-only, and everything's shut down gracefully 16:36:14 at that point you have pretty much no choice but turn off or reboot... 16:55:07 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:45:26 -!- danopia has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 17:45:57 -!- danopia has joined. 17:46:11 -!- olsner has joined. 17:49:04 -!- optbot has joined. 17:49:04 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Then you're Australian.. 17:49:07 Hi, optbot. 17:49:07 ehird: i'm pretty sure someone will write my essay if i try for long enough 17:49:14 optbot: that was oklocod 17:49:14 ehird: that's portuguese, though. 17:49:18 optbot: no. no its not 17:49:18 ehird: until they started distributing tapes with the magazines 18:18:55 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:19:02 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 18:27:46 DARMOK 18:27:48 AND JALAD 18:27:52 AT TANAGRA 18:46:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:47:56 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 19:05:02 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:05:09 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:32:53 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 19:34:51 -!- danopia_ has joined. 19:46:11 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:46:16 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:46:31 -!- danopia has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:48:58 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:58:28 -!- atrapado has joined. 19:58:31 Nomination for Most Annoying Thing About a Default Linux Install: 19:58:48 HI, I SEE YOUR COMPUTER HAS BEEN BOOTING FINE FOR A LONG TIME! I THINK THIS IS A REASON TO CHECK YOUR FILESYSTEM 19:58:49 YOUR 19:58:49 WHOLE 19:58:50 FILESYSTEM 19:59:27 wb ais523 20:00:00 ty eihrd 20:00:04 *ehird 20:00:13 eihrd is a pronounciation nightmare 20:00:13 :D 20:00:30 I think I would pronounce it like "aired" 20:00:38 but with extra aichiness before the r 20:00:42 ey-hrrd for me 20:01:22 ais523: how do you pronounce ehird? 20:01:36 "e heard" 20:02:18 ais523: so E Hurd 20:02:18 :-P 20:02:20 ditto 20:02:28 anyway, I'm pretty happy with my project this year at university 20:02:32 comex pronounces it ayherd 20:02:35 it has esolang-like properties 20:02:36 :| 20:02:44 e as in "he" or "bed" 20:02:52 he 20:03:09 for instance, most operators like dereference, assignment, if, and so on, are very simple 20:03:17 the main hangup is the duplicate operator 20:03:34 (corresponding to : in Underload or [->+>+<<] in brainfuck) 20:03:50 that's expected to take several months of study to implement correctly 20:04:02 what on earth are you doing :-P 20:04:12 synthesis 20:04:15 it's like compilation 20:04:16 .36666569843502..04=/0 20:04:17 */=0 20:04:20 except compilation is software -> software 20:04:25 and synthesis is software -> hardware 20:04:38 unlike on a computer, you can't just get the hardware to make another physical copy of itself... 20:04:40 at least, not easily 20:05:25 right 20:05:31 so what are your source and target representations 20:06:53 -psyBNC: Thu Oct 2 19:06:40 :connect from ai01-fap01.bham.ac.uk 20:06:54 [20:06] -psyBNC: Thu Oct 2 19:06:40 :User ais523 logged in. 20:09:22 -psyBNC: Thu Oct 2 19:09:15 :connect from 147.188.254.115 20:09:22 [20:09] -psyBNC: Thu Oct 2 19:09:15 :User ais523 logged in. 20:09:58 [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:06:52] [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:04:19] lt;ais523 gt; except compilation is software - gt; software 20:10:01 [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:06:52] [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:04:25] lt;ais523 gt; and synthesis is software - gt; hardware 20:10:04 [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:06:52] [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:04:37] lt;ais523 gt; unlike on a computer, you can't just get the hardware to make another physical copy of itself... 20:10:07 [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:06:52] [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:04:40] lt;ais523 gt; at least, not easily 20:10:11 aargh, my pings still aren't returning quickly 20:10:15 last time this happened I ended up without Internet for several hours and all my emails ended up in a random order 20:10:22 [20:10] [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 45 seconds. 20:10:26 well, at least it came eventually 20:10:37 fungot: let me know once you see this message 20:10:39 ais523: http://cbs5.com/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord 20:10:39 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:10:53 ah, good 20:11:00 so, any comments on this ridiculous concept? 20:11:08 easy operators, near-impossible duplicate? 20:11:47 aaaaaaaaaaaa 20:11:58 ehird: is this some kind of new esolang? 20:12:01 http://cbs5.com/fnord/fnord/fnord = 404 20:12:03 it isn't a particularly productive comment... 20:12:05 ah, ok 20:12:08 ais523: yes, it's IRP 20:12:14 ConfusIRP 20:12:19 it confuses people and they do things 20:12:22 its non-deterministic. 20:12:25 adfskugk78wyavwa3gvaw4 20:12:25 54 20:12:31 hmm 20:12:33 now it won't confuse you 20:12:33 damn 20:12:38 language ruined 20:12:41 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:13:24 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:14:17 -!- danopia__ has joined. 20:15:42 -!- slereah has joined. 20:15:43 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:20:25 -!- Asztal has joined. 20:21:16 ais523: 20:21:16 2008-10-02 22:05:24 ( Deewiant) right 20:21:17 2008-10-02 22:05:31 ( Deewiant) so what are your source and target representations 20:21:47 well the bit I'm doing, they're both parse trees written in Ocaml 20:22:31 where does the whole thing start and where does it end 20:25:04 ..................... 20:25:05 . 20:25:05 . 20:25:05 . 20:25:27 ais523: consider ending all your messages with 'optbot' so you know whether it's coming through or not ;-) 20:25:28 Deewiant: oh you should add continuations to Plof -- I'd write a continuations-based web framework in it and use it for everything :p 20:25:43 Deewiant: clever 20:25:44 and spammy 20:25:46 :-P 20:26:29 -psyBNC: Thu Oct 2 19:26:22 :connect from 147.188.254.115 20:26:29 [20:26] -psyBNC: Thu Oct 2 19:26:22 :User ais523 logged in. 20:26:31 yes, it'll distract from all the other discussion here 20:26:36 ... wait, what 20:27:05 [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:22:34] for the project as a whole, it goes from an Algol-like 'functional' language (which behaves imperatively as no recursion but tail-recursion is allowed), to a very low-level hardware language which basically says where to put the gates 20:27:19 2008-10-02 22:25:27 ( Deewiant) ais523: consider ending all your messages with 'optbot' so you know whether it's coming through or not ;-) 20:27:20 Deewiant: it would be like a programming language but specialized for quick calculator stuff. 20:27:26 01:03:00 * oerjan wonders if there would be a market for a song called "Rocking around Frostie the Red-Nosed Reindeer Roasting on a One-Horse Open Sleigh" 20:27:27 Deewiant: heh 20:27:28 very yes 20:28:01 alright, cool stuff 20:29:04 -!- danopia_ has quit (Network is unreachable). 20:29:20 well, it was only a 30-second self-ping time this time (optbot) 20:29:22 ais523: although allegedly that's more esoteric than other langs 20:29:34 http://www.vjn.fi/s/brainfuck.mp3 I like this! 20:29:37 yay, optbot agrees with me about the esotericness of my uni project 20:29:37 ais523: hmm 20:29:45 ehird: what is that? Also, oklocod, what is that? 20:29:56 ais523: an mp3 made by oklocod 20:31:58 ais523: question 20:32:02 is infinitely applied cpp tc? 20:32:06 (cpp|cpp|cpp...) 20:32:16 I think so 20:32:20 if so, is it easy to make a file that changes for 10 runs 20:32:22 then stops? 20:32:22 there was an IOCCC entry once 20:32:25 (counts as counting to 10) 20:32:28 and if so 20:32:30 and yes 20:32:30 do it 20:32:31 :-P 20:32:34 also 20:32:35 using identifiers that expand to #define 20:32:37 without hardcoding 10 20:32:43 ais523: i mean, actually some kind of loop 20:32:56 ehird: well, the IOCCC entry worked by implementing an ALU in the preprocessor 20:33:04 as in, actual digital logic with #defines 20:33:07 so it would be kind-of complex 20:48:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:55:25 * oerjan notes an Asztal 20:56:23 * olsner notes an oerjan 20:56:28 * Asztal can now refer to himself as notable 20:56:39 * oerjan likewise 20:56:41 WP:N >:| 20:56:54 implements Notable? harr, harr 20:57:04 except, is olsner a reliable source? 20:57:18 [citation needed] 20:57:47 reliable? no. source? maybe! 20:57:53 I wonder, can you put [citation needed] on the esowiki? 20:58:11 slereah: well it's physically possible 20:58:15 we don't have it templated though 20:58:20 and esowiki doesn't actually need citations 20:58:28 although we like to know them if they exist 20:58:33 (the policies are different) 20:58:47 Yes, but for instance 20:58:51 "rjan Johansen is an esoteric programming language enthusiast from Norway. [citation needed]" 20:58:58 Imagine such a thing 20:59:12 * ehird imagines such a thing 20:59:19 ehird : you are good 20:59:22 well, I'd remove the [cn] as being pointless 20:59:31 I think "because I say so" is an implied citation on anything not more explicitly specified 20:59:31 "Esme is an esoteric programming language [citation needed]" 20:59:36 slereah: YES 20:59:41 just do 20:59:52 [citation needed] 20:59:52 heh 20:59:54 and it's good enough for me, since most of what is on the esowiki agrees with what I think anyway 21:00:06 many esolangs articles may count as speech acts... 21:00:09 you don't need to nowiki the [ 21:00:24 ais523: yes you do 21:00:24 because it doesn't form an external link unless the thing after the [ looks like a URI 21:00:26 ah 21:00:27 okay 21:00:28 because they are the main place defining the language 21:00:34 [citation needed]? 21:00:40 that will work 21:01:16 'sup doc 21:02:02 I did it. 21:02:07 What have I done? D: 21:02:19 slereah: a great service 21:02:22 Heh. 21:02:28 hm 21:02:31 your was stripped 21:02:41 THIS IS BAD 21:02:42 >:( 21:02:42 I didn't put any sup 21:02:49 hm... 21:02:50 THEN I SHALL 21:03:05 tada 21:03:36 You are manly and beautiful, ehird 21:03:45 I see. 21:04:11 oh i know 21:05:12 Someone should sell [citation needed] stickers 21:05:54 http://mazonka.com/ damn ... javascript clock, cursor-following trail and LIVE STOCK QUOTES 21:05:59 and COMIC SANS 21:06:02 slereah: someone probably already does 21:06:06 it's... just like 1999 21:06:07 ;_; 21:06:36 http://wunumber.org/ ITT: Fragile, single-vendor GUIDs 21:06:40 :D 21:06:46 there was someone in the office working on a bug from a customer the other week 21:07:07 >_< 21:08:17 ehird : It's so not like 1999 21:08:25 The background is too grey 21:08:29 slereah: I'm almost certain someone does, and someone pretty famous too 21:08:30 No animated GIF 21:08:41 ais523: yes 21:08:43 his name is randall 21:08:48 sticking {{fact}} stickers on things became a meme on some well-known website IIRC 21:08:51 forgotten which one though 21:08:53 Well, I didn't see any on the xkcd store 21:09:04 ais523: well, the Wikipedian Protestor by xkcd started it all 21:09:07 now i made a {{fact}} template 21:09:11 My number is 3024477 21:09:18 yes, but it wasn't xkcd that did the sticker thing 21:09:19 guess where it links too 21:09:31 oerjan: [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Citation needed]]? 21:09:32 your mom? 21:09:37 ais523: probably xkcd 21:09:44 the policy that says citations aren't needed? 21:09:49 also 21:09:52 point of order - 21:09:57 ais523: yep its xkcd 21:09:58 * ais523 puts their hand down 21:09:59 point of order - 21:10:02 er 21:10:02 wait 21:10:04 damn 21:10:05 anyway 21:10:10 * ais523 penalises ehird for starting a PoO inside a PoO 21:10:12 {{fact}} 21:10:15 on esowiki 21:10:17 should be factorial 21:10:25 yes, agreed 21:10:40 either that, or factorial / citation needed at random 21:10:54 also oerjan i made your {{fact}} better 21:11:12 http://esolangs.org/wiki/CUTLASS Hoax. 21:11:20 (diff) (hist) . . CUTLASS‎; 12:55 . . (+697) . . 147.89.224.69 (Talk) (Added a few more details.) 21:11:20 (diff) (hist) . . CUTLASS‎; 10:55 . . (+1,174) . . 147.89.224.69 (Talk) (Fairly major rewrite from someone involved in the Cutlass Kit 9 project! I hope this is useful.) 21:11:39 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=CUTLASS&diff=prev&oldid=6560 21:11:40 maybe not a hoax 21:11:41 either way 21:11:43 not an esolang 21:11:47 even on a... 21:11:49 whatsits name 21:11:51 level 21:11:51 bancstar 21:11:55 BANCstar? 21:12:03 BANKER? 21:12:16 Let's make an antisemitic esolang 21:12:24 hm these days there is a need for a BANKER esolang 21:12:26 With jews as data storage 21:12:34 With NUMBERS tattooed on 21:12:36 it needs to blow up in a big bubble at the end 21:13:04 slereah: No. 21:13:08 ais523, hi! 21:13:09 also, why the lowercase s? 21:13:22 * ais523 imagines banging their head on a table 21:13:26 just due to the timing of all that... 21:13:38 ais523: explain 21:13:50 I've had a complicated day 21:13:54 doing busy things in RL 21:13:58 doing things on Agora 21:14:08 tusho restarting my IRC bouncer half-way through 21:14:12 meeting lots of people 21:14:19 and AnMaster jumps in with an enthusiastic Hi! 21:14:22 ais523, [citation needed] for that CUTLASS thingy 21:14:22 YOUR irc bouncer? 21:14:25 really 21:14:25 our irc bouncer. 21:14:28 which is just incongruous to the rest of the day 21:14:29 AnMaster: why ais523 21:14:31 ehird: the IRC bouncer I use 21:14:31 i linked to it 21:14:33 he just ignored it 21:14:33 maybe banging your head on a pillow would be better then 21:14:36 ehird, what is wrong with tusho? 21:14:38 :/ 21:14:40 \: 21:14:40 which you own, sort of... 21:14:42 he died 21:14:46 in a car crash 21:14:49 it was really tragic.. 21:14:50 ehird, he claimed before you died 21:14:52 *sniff* 21:15:01 I... live in the shadow of his memoy. 21:15:03 *memory 21:15:09 ehird: yes, Lisp going wrong when accessing the first element of a list is a real tragedy 21:15:11 2 Oct 2008: Never forget. 21:15:15 current compilers should be able to handle that really easily 21:15:17 ais523: *nod* 21:15:22 restarting irc bouncer? never 21:15:26 hot code reload! 21:15:34 * AnMaster plans rewriting his custom bouncer in erlang 21:15:37 AnMaster: actually ehird rebooted the server 21:15:37 ITT: AnMaster brags about how he KNOWS ERLANG 21:15:38 currently it is C 21:15:39 ha 21:15:43 In after brag 21:15:46 thus kind-of forcing the bouncer to restart 21:15:56 ais523, maybe distributed cluster would help ;) 21:16:00 yes 21:16:04 cluser for a bouncer 21:16:07 silly though 21:16:15 well, the reason he restarted the browser was he'd basically done s/tusho/ehird/ in /etc 21:16:20 but manually 21:16:20 ais523: no, you did that 21:16:25 by getting me to edit it 21:16:26 I did it in /etc/group and /etc/passwd 21:16:31 and then that fucked up the system 21:16:32 ais523, and why did he want to change the name? 21:16:33 so you had to do the rest 21:16:36 AnMaster: Because tusho died. 21:16:37 no, you didn't even do it properly in /etc/group 21:16:39 In a car crash. 21:16:40 and the system was fine 21:16:43 I told you - it was tragic. 21:16:47 just you forgot to edit /etc/shadow... 21:16:51 * ehird sniffs some more 21:16:55 ais523, hahaha 21:16:57 * ehird whimpers 21:17:04 * ehird splutters 21:17:05 ais523, and gshadow I assume? 21:17:08 yep 21:17:11 also /etc/sudoers 21:17:11 * ehird erupts into tears 21:17:16 POOR TUSHO!! 21:17:19 and the whitelist ssh used 21:17:24 * ehird cries 21:17:25 so a pretty comprehensive failed rename 21:17:31 ais523, well some of use know Unix, seems tusho/ehird don't ;P 21:17:37 AnMaster: no, blame ais523 21:17:41 (maybe that will stop the spam and make him attack me instead) 21:17:42 i asked him what i'd need to change 21:17:42 ehird was left unable to log in about 10 different ways 21:17:45 and he said just /etc/passwd 21:17:49 because everything else used user ids 21:17:50 ehird: well I said configuration files 21:17:51 in /etc 21:17:54 ais523, heheh 21:17:55 ais523: /etc/ssh/sshd_config 21:17:57 is in /etc 21:18:01 and I said the file system used configuration files 21:18:07 ehird: are you agreeing with me? How dare you! 21:18:15 hha 21:18:16 no I didn't 21:18:17 hah* 21:18:22 I said the file system used user IDs 21:18:28 ais523: i can dig up logs 21:18:29 but configuration files needed changing 21:18:34 well, so can I 21:18:35 no, you kind of said that 21:18:37 you said what happened first 21:18:39 then sort of half corrected it 21:18:41 in a vague way 21:18:42 so ha 21:18:51 and you went plowing on with the change 21:18:53 * ehird goes back to crying 21:18:58 before stopping to wonder if it was a good idea... 21:19:00 ais523: worked out in the end, didn't it 21:19:11 I'll check back in a couple of years 21:19:14 the end hasn't happened yet 21:19:23 ais523: the lhc is turning on before that... 21:19:24 :D 21:19:25 hmm... the end probably won't have happened in a couple of years either 21:19:32 failing that, try 2012 21:19:42 also, I've seen an article arguing that the LHC won't create a black hole 21:19:52 zomg 21:19:56 what a controversial opinion! 21:19:56 but the large amounts of supercooled helium will cause the whole thing to spontaneously explode 21:20:01 ahahahahaha 21:20:07 thus taking out most of the surrounding countryside 21:20:19 http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html (turn on animated gifs) 21:20:19 that would be cool in several ways 21:20:22 HELIUM BOMB 21:20:27 unless you've already seen 21:20:28 it 21:20:30 in which case do nothing 21:20:43 wait 21:20:43 no 21:20:44 it's flash 21:20:47 ok, turn on flash :-P 21:21:17 yeah the black hole thing is very theoretical, depending on extra dimensions beyond those currently known iirc 21:21:30 Actually, they're trying to make the black hole 21:21:33 -!- danopia__ has quit (Connection timed out). 21:21:36 Because it would be awesome 21:21:43 oerjan: the black hole being created, or the black hole being avoided? 21:21:48 They're trying to make FIVE HUNDRED GNOMES 21:21:50 HOLY SHIT 21:21:53 created 21:21:54 An army... 21:21:55 united... 21:21:58 AGAINST KDE 21:22:00 ehird: I can't turn on Flash, I uninstalled it 21:22:03 But it only works with some requirement on the dimensions, yeah 21:22:08 -!- danopia__ has joined. 21:22:09 ais523: yes you can - it just involves installing it first 21:22:10 ehird : The Gnomes of Zurich? 21:22:17 as in, it's unlikely to require this low energy 21:22:59 Heh, at least there's something for the future archaeologists to wonder about, why there's a circular crater with a circumference of 27 kilometers. If it just old-fashionedly blows up and doesn't create those ALL-CONSUMING STRANGELETS. 21:23:00 From what I remember, if you've got a bunch of dimensions, gravity would actually weakens much more quickly 21:23:07 As it would seep into the other directions 21:23:09 http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html (turn on animated gifs) <-- not gif 21:23:14 seems to be flash 21:23:14 So at short range, it would be stronger 21:23:19 Permitting little black holes 21:23:22 AnMaster: 21:23:22 ehird: wait 21:23:22 [21:20] ehird: no 21:23:22 [21:20] ehird: it's flash 21:23:23 [21:20] ehird: ok, turn on flash :-P 21:23:25 ah 21:23:56 The black hole would then evaporate, if Hawking's right 21:24:25 but if there are extra dimensions and Hawking's wrong, we might have a problem 21:24:47 oerjan: but i thought that 21:24:55 collisions like the lhc does happen in our atmosphere 21:24:56 daily? 21:25:02 hah jokes 21:25:06 Well, not daily 21:25:08 AnMaster: that wasn't a joke. 21:25:11 But they happen, yeah 21:25:16 slereah: rite then 21:25:20 And even bigger reactions, too. 21:25:22 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:25:27 AnMaster: what part of that was a joke 21:25:29 ehird: yeah there's that. but there's a technical doubt about the speed of the resulting particles 21:25:32 ehird, the video 21:25:34 IIRC, there was one around 10^20 eV! 21:25:36 AnMaster: ah. 21:25:42 AnMaster: you have flash installed?! 21:25:44 zomgwtfbbq 21:25:48 Which is... well, almost ten joules 21:25:50 i don't believe it 21:25:53 [citation needed] 21:25:55 because with cosmic rays the result always has a high speed, so might always escape earth's gravity 21:25:57 Not enough to heat a cup of coffee, but still 21:25:59 ehird, not on this computer, I did a remote connection to another computer that have it 21:26:03 flash is the biggest portable security hole in existence 21:26:11 (for the energies needed for a black hole) 21:26:16 hmm... portable holes,,,,,,,,,useful things............ 21:26:17 oerjan : The velocity might be towards earth 21:26:19 ehird, and ran ssh + x-forwarding + 32-bit forefox 21:26:19 ais523: blame macromedia 21:26:24 ehird, is that complex enough for you 21:26:26 RIGHT IN ITS FACE 21:26:27 they made it when the web was pure and virgin 21:26:38 AnMaster: no but its laggy enough 21:26:42 :) 21:26:54 slereah: but a microblack hole will interact only weakly so will go straight through the earth. it takes time to start growing. 21:27:02 ehird, because I thought they were real webcams in the link first, if I had known they were jokes then I would have skipped it 21:27:08 oerjan: someone calculated it 21:27:12 oerjan: at the original turn on date 21:27:12 ehird, laggy? 1 Gbit lan :P 21:27:13 I was laughing out loud continuously for about 10 seconds then 21:27:16 the time 21:27:18 it takes 21:27:19 when I heard about AnMaster's flash setup 21:27:22 would put it 21:27:25 to explode everything 21:27:29 on december 2012 21:27:30 on THE RIGHT DAY 21:27:34 luckily the lab is empty apart from me 21:27:36 stupid delays, ruining stuff like that 21:27:37 >:( 21:27:47 ais523: blame macromedia <- adobe these days 21:27:50 oerjan : Then we can send it 21:27:55 IN SPACE! 21:28:00 How awesome would that be 21:28:00 AnMaster: yes but macromedia are probably responsible for it 21:28:05 due to it being an old codebase 21:28:10 hmm... portable holes,,,,,,,,,useful things............ <-- since when are you Mike Riley? 21:28:10 "Sending the threat to earth in space" 21:28:11 and security stuff like that not being a huge worry back then 21:28:13 hmm... I'm not sure whether to blame macromedia for inventing the format, or adobe for not fixing the bugs 21:28:25 AnMaster: I decided to impersonate Mike Riley for a bit just for fun 21:28:25 Then, it hits aliens 21:28:25 Bam 21:28:25 Galactic war 21:28:33 after the initial row of dots it was an obvious thing to do 21:28:39 ais523, made no sense in that context? 21:28:50 well the first 3 dots were natural 21:28:55 then I just decided to keep on going 21:29:43 ais523, also my flash setup is in fact more complex than that I fear 21:30:04 ais523, since the linux with the flash runs under xen on that other computer 21:30:05 :P 21:30:17 Deewiant: by the way, my insane University project resembles Haskell a bit, Haskell uses types that can be correctly checked at compile time to enforce purity and monads and stuff, my project uses types to avoid race conditions and short circuits 21:30:30 XZ 21:30:33 ais523, hm? 21:30:39 ais523, how? 21:30:57 AnMaster: basically by having a type qualifier for every variable in the source code 21:31:08 ais523, you mean... int foo;? 21:31:09 like that? 21:31:10 and saying that you can't call a function if the function and argument share identifiers 21:31:13 yes, pretty much 21:31:19 if you have a global int foo 21:31:22 that's used by function f 21:31:30 then f(foo) types badly in the intermediate language 21:31:39 fffffffffffoo 21:31:43 but what I'm doing is a compiler to compile the source into a language that types well 21:31:44 ... 21:31:46 holy butts 21:31:52 I didn't do esoshit in forever 21:32:01 Maybe I should whip up that mu language 21:32:10 which in this case would involve duplicating foo, or at least using two ways to get at it 21:32:20 ais523, so a variable can't be used in a parameter list if it is also used as the global in the function body? 21:32:22 To the Dr Scheme! 21:32:31 AnMaster: not in the intermediate language, no 21:32:37 ais523, if you have single assignment and no global variables, then the issue is solved :) 21:32:41 however, more interestingly, functions are also identifiers 21:32:51 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:32:51 HOWWWW MAGICALLL 21:32:53 ISSSSS 21:32:53 and single assignment to functions is ridiculous 21:32:55 YOUR STORRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEE 21:32:58 VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY MAGICAL 21:33:03 so f(g(x)) isn't allowed if f calls g 21:33:12 ais523, you forbid recursion? 21:33:16 well, not me 21:33:23 my project supervisor forbids non-tail recursion 21:33:33 recursion is kind-of tricky to synthesize into hardware 21:33:34 ais523, err you can do tail that way 21:33:38 without having a stack 21:33:46 AnMaster: yes, in the original program 21:33:49 f(A) { call A; } 21:33:52 this is a restriction on the intermediate language 21:33:57 not on the original program 21:34:09 g(x) { call f(); return x } 21:34:12 I have to compile user-provided programs into programs that respect these conditions 21:34:14 wait 21:34:16 g(x) { call f(); } 21:34:19 and ignore x 21:34:22 there 21:34:29 tail recursion between two functions 21:34:31 so yes, you can do it in your head for a simple program 21:34:51 ais523, this sounds very hard 21:35:05 yes, that's why I'm doing it as a year-long project for University... 21:35:15 ais523, I guess you could transform non-tail recursion to some continuation passing style? 21:35:31 ais523, what is the source language? 21:35:48 AnMaster: ais523, this sounds very hard 21:35:48 a custom one, which is basically just ALGOL with different syntax 21:35:48 [21:35] ais523: yes, that's why I'm doing it as a year-long project for University... 21:35:49 :-) 21:35:55 ais523, eww 21:36:08 'eww'? 21:36:09 ais523, it is not even functional? 21:36:10 Why 'eww' at algol. 21:36:16 NOT EVEN FUNCTIONAL! 21:36:19 Like C and bash. 21:36:21 Wait, you like C and Bash. 21:36:25 ais523, that will be hard to translate 21:36:27 AnMaster: it's confusing 21:36:34 ehird, I wasn't responding to you 21:36:36 it's imperative but translated into functional internally 21:36:44 AnMaster: No, but you can't stop me commenting. 21:36:47 except it doesn't have first-class functions, or at least it does sometimes, but not other times 21:36:49 ehird, so.. don't try to interpret my response as an answer 21:37:01 I didn't. 21:37:04 I was making two seperate comments. 21:37:04 ehird, just read the line I said next 21:37:07 I was making two seperate comments. 21:37:15 'eww'? 21:37:16 ais523, it is not even functional? 21:37:16 Why 'eww' at algol. 21:37:16 NOT EVEN FUNCTIONAL! 21:37:16 Like C and bash. 21:37:16 Wait, you like C and Bash. 21:37:18 ais523, that will be hard to translate 21:37:21 I was making two seperate comments. 21:37:22 I was making two seperate comments. 21:37:22 I was making two seperate comments. 21:37:23 I was making two seperate comments. 21:37:24 I was making two seperate comments. 21:37:25 I was making two seperate comments. 21:37:25 you weren't 21:37:27 I was making two seperate comments. 21:37:31 Yes. Yes I was. 21:37:45 * AnMaster puts ehird on ignore for now 21:37:57 You're the one with the burden of proof. 21:38:09 next problem: trying to persuade engineers that this is difficult 21:38:11 And considering I, being the one who made the statements, know what I intended... 21:38:18 ais523, hm? 21:38:27 this is a genuine University project 21:38:29 ais523, how do you mean? Your project is difficult yes 21:38:32 that's half my mark for the year 21:38:44 basically it's a programmer (me) helping a computer scientist implement what he's written in his papers 21:38:56 ais523, ah interesting 21:39:04 software -> hardware compilation is great, anywya 21:39:05 *anyway 21:39:15 ais523, I suggest using llvm for that 21:39:23 AnMaster: no, you don't get the point 21:39:27 that's a bytecode interpreter 21:39:28 that's not compiling 21:39:30 to hardware 21:39:36 ais523, it is a compiler to machine code 21:39:42 or did you mean like VHDL? 21:39:47 hmm... even so, this doesn't use machine code 21:39:53 it's much more like VHDL 21:39:56 weird 21:40:02 in fact I think they use Verilog as one of the intermediate languages 21:40:05 well, the input is imperative 21:40:08 but the output is VHDLy 21:40:18 ais523, anyway llvm allows generating native code, or jit byte code 21:40:20 you select 21:40:32 you can use it as a great native compiler 21:40:43 well, that's not really the point here 21:40:49 indeed 21:40:50 llvm's still imperative -> imperative at the heart of it 21:41:03 not imperative -> functional -> VHDLy 21:41:12 I'm not even sure what the name for the VHDL paradigm is... 21:41:57 true 21:42:23 ais523, I was just trying to clarify what LLVM was since you said " that's a bytecode interpreter" 21:42:23 hmm... "cross-paradigm compilation" sounds like it would make a good buzzword 21:42:26 ah, ok 21:42:51 ais523, also from llvm byte code you can generate native code for several different plaforms 21:42:54 platforms 21:43:06 yes, ok 21:43:10 still irrelevant, though... 21:43:32 I heard it is even possible to generate the byte code so that the same byte code can be used to generate binaries for all the supported platforms. Though this isn't supported for the C frontends for obvious reasons 21:43:51 (there are two, gcc-llvm, and the new clang) 21:44:06 *clang* 21:44:09 (clang is still in development, but works well, can compile cfunge, except it chokes on a system header) 21:44:16 this channel seems to have developed into each person in a thread of their own 21:44:22 kind of makes conversation difficult... 21:44:29 ais523, could be because I'm currently ignoring tusho 21:44:45 tusho hasn't spoken in a while 21:44:45 well tusho hasn't said anything since a few seconds after you ignored em 21:44:49 ais523, since he couldn't behave wel 21:44:50 well* 21:44:55 either that or I ignored him to absent-mindedly 21:44:57 *too 21:45:13 tusho hasn't said anything for hours 21:45:17 well, yes 21:45:17 because tusho hasn't been online for hours 21:45:22 ehird = tusho 21:45:23 ais523, I don't think that is a coincidence 21:45:31 AnMaster: i can assure you that it is 21:45:36 except, no, wait, I can't 21:45:38 AnMaster: i can assure you that it is 21:45:38 ais523, and ehird didn't speak either? 21:45:40 because you can't hear me 21:45:41 ha 21:45:42 AnMaster: i can assure you that it is 21:45:46 because you can't hear me 21:45:49 ha 21:45:49 ais523, he repeats it again? 21:45:52 ais523: you missed 21:45:53 out 21:45:54 some lines 21:45:56 sigh 21:46:03 ehird: I know I missed some lines, they weren't interesting 21:46:04 spamming a statement 21:46:07 also 21:46:09 and ehird was silent for ages 21:46:11 ais523: tell AnMaster that i didn't spam it 21:46:13 i only said it once 21:46:15 you just pasted it twice 21:46:17 after the spam and before we mentioned it 21:46:28 ehird: you said it 7 times 21:46:28 ais523: . 21:46:32 ais523: what 21:46:33 no i did not 21:46:34 your referent of 'it' is probably wrong 21:46:38 AnMaster is referring to your spam earlier 21:46:40 ehird: AnMaster: i can assure you that it is 21:46:42 i said that once 21:46:44 and no 21:46:46 he isn't 21:46:47 I was making two seperate comments. happened 7 times 21:46:50 ais523: AnMaster: i can assure you that it is 21:46:52 ais523: AnMaster: i can assure you that it is 21:46:54 ais523: yes 21:46:56 but he is not referring to that 21:47:01 he is referring to your pasting the line just above twice 21:47:06 and thinking that is because i said it twice. 21:47:08 when i did not. 21:47:11 THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT 21:47:18 oh dear, this reminds me of those arguments by proxy people have sometimes 21:47:24 I end up as the proxy far too often... 21:47:32 ais523: AnMaster is accusing me of being a spammer because of one of your actions. 21:47:48 Since I cannot correct him personally, I am telling you to do so, because being the one who caused him to accuse me of that, you seem like the best option. 21:47:58 * oerjan prepares to swat ais523 if he does more proxying ---## 21:48:13 ehird: oerjan prepared to swat me if I did more proxying 21:48:33 JIIIHAAAD!!! ---## ---## ---## 21:48:33 ^echo AnMaster: I said that ONCE. I did not spam it. ais523 just pasted it twice, for no reason. Do not accuse me of spamming. ~ehird 21:48:34 AnMaster: I said that ONCE. I did not spam it. ais523 just pasted it twice, for no reason. Do not accuse me of spamming. ~ehird AnMaster: I said that ONCE. I did not spam it. ais523 just pasted it twice, for ... 21:49:02 oerjan: is ---## a swatter 21:49:06 yep 21:49:08 or a wall with a corridor next to it? 21:49:13 that was twice in that fungot command 21:49:14 AnMaster: what's with all the bot abuse from your first solution, as long as needed 21:49:14 sigh 21:49:27 ^echo I am using fungot's ^echo command. 21:49:27 I am using fungot's ^echo command. I am using fungot's ^echo command. 21:49:29 oh yes bot abuse indeed 21:49:32 I agree fungot 21:49:33 AnMaster: there exist an bijective map between the symbols used in other module systems, as a complete window manager written in scsh using 10 000 already 21:49:42 AnMaster: You know, fungot ^echo does everything twice. 21:49:42 fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api 21:49:46 what is scsh? 21:49:48 fizzie, yep 21:49:52 ^echo fizzie: No, clearly it's my fault. ~ehird 21:49:52 fizzie: No, clearly it's my fault. ~ehird fizzie: No, clearly it's my fault. ~ehird 21:49:54 ais523, scheme shell iirc 21:49:58 never tried it 21:50:01 and is it any good for window manager writing? 21:50:03 anyway: 21:50:08 ais523, it is? 21:50:08 fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api 21:50:09 ais523: so many people over 10000: 1.2 seconds for both functional linear-update binary shuffle; 33 seconds for linear-update insertion shuffle; 80 seconds for functional insertion shuffle" at http://www.common-lisp.net/ paste/ results/ fnord 21:50:13 is the best fungot line ever 21:50:13 ais523: yeah like kernels...). inside that expression you have a question 21:50:27 AnMaster: fungot seemed to think so 21:50:27 ais523: just planning for the construction of a new macro 21:50:31 ais523, h 21:50:32 aj 21:50:42 and I don't care if that fungot line is verbatim from someone else, it's still great 21:50:42 ais523: then a postgresql bug blotched the db up pretty badly. 21:51:07 ais523, what one? 21:51:15 the window one? 21:51:18 AnMaster: fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api 21:51:19 yes 21:51:20 or the fnord one? 21:51:21 ah 21:51:36 I wonder if that is verbatim 21:51:38 from somewhere 21:51:48 Grepping. 21:51:50 ais523, also that said windows api 21:51:55 which is kind of worse 21:51:56 it sounds just like what happens if you fuzz-test the Windows API 21:52:07 #scheme: [2006-09-23 07:52:58] < psykotic> three korean dudes are repelling off the skyscrape out of my window, washing the windows 21:52:10 ais523, sounds like UD 21:52:12 Pinggrep. 21:52:15 It added the word "API" itself there. 21:52:21 (the program you fuzz-test crashes badly because the calling inventions involve passing pointers around) 21:52:25 fizzie, shudder 21:52:30 s/inventions/conventions/ 21:52:37 http://www.thingspalincanname.com/ 21:52:43 fizzie, and the demons flying out? 21:52:53 fizzie: ah, I know what happened, it started with the famous "it makes demons fly out of my nose" quote 21:53:01 And I'm pretty sure the demons part is one of the (common in comp.lang.c) reference to "demons flying out of one's nose" re undefined behaviour. 21:53:07 but Markoved it into the windows API thing 21:53:18 fizzie: yes, definitely 21:53:28 and "windows API" is a common continuation of "windows" 21:53:36 Yes, "out of my" can be continued with "window" thanks to that psykotic quote, and I'm sure "the windows api" is somewhere. 21:53:49 fungot never misses the markov. 21:53:49 oerjan: quite likely. there is, that's it? 21:54:07 oerjan: oh dear, trying to fill your 97% pun quota up? 21:54:32 oerjan, you were trying to make a pun? 21:54:35 failed to detect that 21:54:46 thought it was just semi-random comment 21:54:51 the sentence doesn't make sense any other way 21:54:54 I should have a "^explain" command so that it could give an explanation like that, but it'd again bloat the language model. 21:54:54 but it's obvious as a pun 21:55:19 ais523, really? 21:55:35 fizzie, and bloat the code? 21:55:39 AnMaster: "never misses the mark" is an English idiom 21:55:46 ais523, ah... 21:55:50 yes then it makes sense 21:55:53 as a pun 21:56:05 ais523, quite fun actually then 21:56:07 Bloating the code is just a good thing, makes it a more impressive Funge-98 program. 21:56:37 oerjan, keep that up, but please use (pun "text here") 21:56:38 ;P 21:56:43 Should finish (or at least start) that HTTP client at the very least. 21:56:44 or I wouldn't detect it 21:57:20 ais523: well who knows i _could_ be using a markov generator myself 21:57:33 markov generators rarely make puns 21:57:34 fizzie, hm efunge will have the planned NSCK/SCK4/SCK6/SCKU instead of SOCK and SCKE 21:57:53 it's probably a chance in $BIGNUM that fungot would come up with an insightful metaphor like that 21:57:53 ais523: i just dreaming of two broccoli fnord lying in an ovular, porcelain pool 21:57:55 would a pun generator be possible? 21:57:59 and yet it did, at random 21:58:02 AnMaster: it would probably be awful 21:58:07 but that doesn't really matter with puns 21:58:17 fungot: ais523: i just dreaming of two broccoli fnord lying in an ovular, porcelain pool 21:58:18 ehird: and how does cgi help you with optimizing bindings in your own world of conventions. 21:58:21 winwinwinwiwnwin 21:58:22 FNORD 21:58:30 ais523, I think it would be near impossible 21:58:40 ais523, a true AI could do it 21:58:43 LIARS 21:58:47 but short of that I don't think so 21:58:49 ^echo AnMaster: http://grok-code.com/12/how-to-write-original-jokes-or-have-a-computer-do-it-for-you/ 21:58:49 AnMaster: http://grok-code.com/12/how-to-write-original-jokes-or-have-a-computer-do-it-for-you/ AnMaster: http://grok-code.com/12/how-to-write-original-jokes-or-have-a-computer-do-it-for-you/ 21:59:13 humor needs intelligence to be good 21:59:15 well, those are jokes not puns 21:59:23 I suppose you could do like standard patterns 21:59:36 fizzie: does fungot use fnord when it cannot find another way to continue? 21:59:37 oerjan: cons as you traverse the tree fnord and needs to be clever 21:59:40 fizzie: plz source ais523: i just dreaming of two broccoli fnord lying in an ovular, porcelain pool 21:59:41 (fungot is a bot) 21:59:41 ehird: depends on what you mean 21:59:41 ehird: i think that's the best one 21:59:44 oops 21:59:49 the last line was from me sending that to people 21:59:50 :-P 22:00:07 I googled for "pun generator" and one of the results made knock knock jokes based on Shakespeare 22:00:16 but needed human interaction to work correctly 22:00:29 oerjan: No, when I tokenized my logs I mapped all tokens with a frequency of one to "UNK" (as in unknown), and when converting the generated token-stream back to text I map that to "fnord" explicitly. 22:00:45 ehird: that joke generator is restricted to the "what do you get if you cross x with y" it seems 22:00:56 but truly original jokes: no 22:00:57 ^echo AnMaster: Yes, but that's not the piont. 22:00:57 AnMaster: Yes, but that's not the piont. AnMaster: Yes, but that's not the piont. 22:01:09 that you need AI for 22:01:13 fizzie: ok so almost but not quite what i said, in effect 22:01:22 this is just generating based on a template really 22:01:41 oerjan: Yes. Quite often it just 'fnord'izes uncommon words in a otherwise-quoted-verbatim sentence, though. 22:01:49 ^echo AnMaster: No, it's not. It's more complex than that. Read the code. 22:01:50 AnMaster: No, it's not. It's more complex than that. Read the code. AnMaster: No, it's not. It's more complex than that. Read the code. 22:01:58 hmm... it seems that ignoring ehird just makes him say everything three times, via bot 22:02:00 so if we start saying UNK a lot that will increase the fnords? :D 22:02:08 ehird: Source: #scheme [2004-06-04 01:50:25] < boobot> I just DREAMING of two BROCCOLI FLORETS lying in an OVULAR, porcelain pool -- Should I do not recognize the name. 22:02:11 yes of course, it uses a vocabulary and so on 22:02:21 fizzie: boobot is a bot 22:02:25 fizzie: you mean that was generated by a bot in the first place? 22:02:30 fizzie: SO, it is verbatim, but from another random-generating bot 22:02:32 zem 22:02:33 fizzie, another markov bot? 22:02:33 *zen 22:02:39 or maybe 'zem' is more appropriate 22:02:40 haha 22:02:42 ^echo AnMaster no not markov 22:02:42 AnMaster no not markov AnMaster no not markov 22:02:49 * ais523 wonders if it would be possible to set up a markov chain of markovbots somehow 22:03:04 I suspect I have to ignore fungot too, since ehird doesn't respect ignore 22:03:05 AnMaster: ( user ' ( open posix-files)) 22:03:13 hmm.... get a whole lot of markovbots written in different languages 22:03:18 ^echo AnMaster: Have fun with that. I'll just put another bot in here. 22:03:18 AnMaster: Have fun with that. I'll just put another bot in here. AnMaster: Have fun with that. I'll just put another bot in here. 22:03:22 then markovchain their sources together 22:03:29 that would be bad style 22:03:33 then write an esolang capable of running the resulting program 22:03:48 ^echo AnMaster: It's a good thing I don't give a damn. 22:03:48 AnMaster: It's a good thing I don't give a damn. AnMaster: It's a good thing I don't give a damn. 22:04:02 and bad style is the least of your worries if you chain together programs written in lots of different languages 22:04:04 if you don't give a damn then why do you give a damn about using a bot at all 22:04:11 ais523: he is talking about me 22:04:13 anyway, fizzie, can you try to persuade ehird not to spam? 22:04:20 putting a bot in here to annoy AnMaster 22:04:21 fungot!*@* 22:04:22 AnMaster: to actually demonstrate the changing history part ( it's likely that your max already allows 3 ( and more) 22:04:24 added to ignore list. 22:04:29 Great. 22:04:33 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird_. 22:04:33 ais523: Sorry, my mind control skills are very bad. 22:04:35 Hi AnMaster. 22:04:44 fungot: And you! Should you really be obeying just anyone? 22:04:45 fizzie: what about your ChanServ-control skills? 22:04:57 Hmm? what's that? An IP block? 22:04:58 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird. 22:05:16 Well this is easily solvable. 22:05:22 -!- ehird_ has joined. 22:05:24 Hi AnMaster. 22:05:26 ehird: For example, by leaving him alone? 22:05:35 fizzie: As if! 22:05:56 * ehird_ suspects AnMaster may have a block on my ident 22:05:57 -!- ehird_ has quit (Client Quit). 22:06:26 -!- unrelatedguy has joined. 22:06:32 hi AnMaster 22:06:53 It's official. 22:06:56 AnMaster is ignoring *!*@*. 22:07:04 Awesome. 22:07:10 ais523, why is ehird joining his various different clients and then just parting? Seems strange 22:07:19 I guess he have connection issues or something 22:07:32 AnMaster: you're bullshitting, I know you can see the text because it's a different IP, hostname and nick. 22:07:36 he has* 22:07:40 You will have had to manually /ignore it, and of course then know why I'm doing it. 22:08:03 ehird: well maybe he has your IP blocked from months ago 22:08:07 I don't quite recognise it on sight yet 22:08:08 ais523: True. 22:08:13 -!- unrelatedguy has changed nick to Hi_AnMaster. 22:08:19 but I certainly know there are IPs with a distinctly ehirdy look to them 22:08:26 also, /ignore evasion is taking it too far, really 22:08:34 people deserve to be kicked for that sort of thing 22:09:00 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 22:09:02 ais523, my client is smart enough to add new patterns if parts change 22:09:14 sounds good 22:09:15 like ip change, but not nick and such then it adds the ip 22:09:16 and so on 22:09:31 also, I can easily imagine a nick-tracking bot that just ignores both sides of a nick change 22:09:33 -!- Hi_AnMaster has changed nick to So_AnMaster_how_. 22:09:38 -!- So_AnMaster_how_ has changed nick to are_things_QUEST. 22:09:52 hi ION_MARK 22:10:01 -!- are_things_QUEST has changed nick to IONMARK. 22:10:02 ais523, and yes I ignore nick changes, why? 22:10:07 Heh. 22:10:07 ais523, ? 22:10:09 * ehird thinks. 22:10:13 what do you mean ais523 ? 22:10:16 I have a sinking feeling kickbannery would just leave to ban evasionery, but nickflooding is so annoying I guess we'll soon have to actually try it. 22:10:16 AnMaster: because ehird was trying to get around your ignorance 22:10:22 well, your /ignore ance 22:10:26 -!- danopia__ has changed nick to danopia. 22:10:29 and your client defeated them 22:10:33 There, that should have done it. 22:10:39 I bet he doesn't ignore CTCPs. 22:10:53 ais523, well my script rather 22:10:59 makes sense 22:12:00 hm interesting, the script just told me it added a ctcp block too, wonder what on earth caused that 22:12:04 oh well 22:12:08 I'm heading to bed soon 22:12:11 got a new book 22:12:16 AnMaster is actually reading all this, he's just reading off that for effect to try and annoy me. 22:12:18 :-) 22:12:29 I know you're reading this. 22:12:32 Brisinger by C. Paolini 22:12:55 ehird: if so he's taking your trolling very well 22:12:58 over 760 pages though, so won't read it all in one night 22:13:00 normally you're well-behaved 22:13:04 what's got into you today 22:13:08 ais523: No, he's just counter-trolling me. 22:13:17 well in that case YHL. 22:13:17 Also, this amuses me and I am bored. 22:13:29 "I hit him because he hit me afterwards!" 22:13:29 Actually I haven't, I'm just figuring out cunning ways to annoy him further. 22:13:49 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 22:14:01 oerjan: have you ever heard anyone actually using that argument? 22:14:13 nah 22:14:31 it's just an old joke i guess 22:14:35 I can so imagine that in a kid's playground... 22:14:53 well that's the setting of the joke i guess 22:16:30 Aha. 22:16:31 I know! 22:16:41 -!- IONMARK has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Hi AnMaster. 22:16:56 optbot! 22:16:56 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | can be. 22:17:16 -!- IONMARK has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | How are you today AnMaster? -ehird. 22:17:18 * AnMaster refines script slightly 22:17:22 done 22:17:33 optbot! 22:17:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | popping a value of an empty should return 0. 22:17:41 optbot's a "can be" person, as opposed to a "can do" guy. 22:17:42 fizzie: is there a current-request object or something? 22:17:55 well, I'm resetting the topic mostly for the fun of seeing ehird in an edit war with his own bot 22:18:12 I just /invite'd AnMaster to #hi_anmaster. 22:18:12 fungot! 22:18:13 :-) 22:18:32 ehird: this is the sort of thing that almost makes me want to call Freenode in on you 22:18:34 fungot: Did you die, by the way? 22:18:37 you're going far too far, stop it 22:18:43 fizzie: apparently so 22:18:50 ais523: Is there a policy I'm breaking? I don't know of any specific, non-vague one that I am violating. 22:18:54 ais523, yes now the topic display at the top does change but since that is too short to show more than half the link anyway that isn't an issue, but it isn't announced in channel 22:19:20 ais523: well i was getting annoyed but on the other hand when he took a break it got awfully quiet here for a couple minutes 22:19:23 ehird: "don't troll" is surely a policy 22:19:36 well that's because the old, interesting conversation got derailed 22:19:38 ais523: People have trolled me before via /msg, I reported to freenode, they say "/ignore them, we can't do anything" 22:19:49 So no: They do not punish people who troll. :-) 22:20:43 Still, there _is_ a policy: "Off-Topic Use -- various forms of antisocial behavior -- Off-topic activity may result in users being barred from the network." 22:20:52 It's more of a "won't do" than "can't do" situation there. 22:23:03 -!- danopia has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:23:26 -!- danopia has joined. 22:23:51 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:24:21 Heh, after I asked fungot "And you! Should you really be obeying just anyone?" it went to a some sort of loop where it was using 100 % of the CPU time of that box. 22:24:35 Obviously moral/ethical questions are too much for it's brain. 22:25:19 -!- fungot has joined. 22:25:36 I'll ask it again just to be sure, but it probably didn't have anything to do with the input. 22:25:43 fungot: And you! Should you really be obeying just anyone? 22:25:43 fizzie: before the pre-scheme compiler 22:26:06 fungot: What, after you get a Scheme compiler you'll suddenly start to behave correctly? 22:26:06 fizzie: and yeah, imag-part has an exactness bug. fixing as we speak 22:26:28 fungot: So you're actually _writing_ that compiler now? Sometimes you scare me. 22:26:29 fizzie: the approach used by gambit is described here: 22:26:58 -!- IONMARK has quit ("Lost terminal"). 22:27:28 fizzie, you want to debug that 22:28:01 Does your interpreter happen to have some sort of "drops into the debugger when receives a signal" mode or something? 22:28:03 fizzie, don't you keep a backtrace? 22:28:27 fizzie, err I don't have a full debugger, I just use some gdb macros. So yeah, you attach gdb to it :P 22:28:41 then you do set variable SettingTraceLevel 9 22:28:44 irrc 22:28:47 maybe a = there 22:28:55 and level may be lower case 22:29:01 you can tab complete it from Setting 22:29:08 fizzie, so standard gdb attach :) 22:29:20 and then continue after setting trace on 22:29:45 fizzie, not the answer you wanted? 22:29:46 Well, it's RC/Funge-98 still, haven't bothered to add the "chroot after starting so I don't need to a real chroot jail" to yours. 22:30:02 I'd stick with RC/Funge. :-P 22:30:10 I wonder if RC/Funge2 is usable yet? 22:30:15 fizzie, a chroot for cfunge could be small :) 22:31:04 fizzie, also adding that before file loading would be easy enough 22:31:10 after file loading, maybe not 22:32:18 fizzie, see also etc/example.gdbinit in cfunge source 22:32:24 and etc/README 22:32:58 fizzie, you need a -g -O0 compile 22:32:58 I think I'm just too lazy to do that when there aren't too many benefits in using another implementation. Although I guess a faster Funge implementation would mean a faster brainfuck interpreter in there. 22:33:06 -ggdb3 recommended 22:33:11 AnMaster: -g -O0? Why? 22:33:11 fizzie: the brainfuck is pretty fast as it is 22:33:18 -O0 is lousy 22:33:19 ais523, or debug symbols won't work properly 22:33:26 ais523, I get "symbol optimised out" 22:33:26 ^show 22:33:26 echo reverb rev bf rot13 22:33:29 they'll work well enough, normally 22:33:39 define brkinst 22:33:39 break ExecuteInstruction if (opcode == $arg0) 22:33:39 end 22:33:41 I think there were some other commands I forgot to ^save. 22:33:44 with a bit of lateral thinking you can figure out what it was optimised out too 22:33:46 *to 22:33:48 ais523, opcode is optimised out at -O1 22:33:57 so that means that just breaks 22:34:06 ais523, also the code is quite ok at -O0 22:34:14 AnMaster: you can often get at it indirectly 22:34:23 around 2 seconds for mycology here 22:34:36 instead of 0.120 or so 22:34:39 AnMaster: yes, but it's massively large 22:34:44 ais523, the binary? 22:34:45 and a real pain to read 22:34:50 if you're into reading asm, like I am 22:34:56 yes, I'm talking about the binary 22:34:58 ais523, 2.5 MB 22:35:05 instead of 170 KB or s 22:35:06 so* 22:35:18 actually 170 is stripped version of that 22:35:21 so -ggdb3 cause most 22:35:22 it just breaks my heart to see gcc moving data from one variable to another, then moving it back again for no reason 22:35:32 and storing stuff on the stack when it doesn't need to 22:35:33 ais523, well I don't read the asm most of the time 22:35:34 and so on 22:35:36 I work on higher level 22:35:40 it's a sad way for a compilre to make a living... 22:36:03 AnMaster: I work on higher level 22:36:12 and then drop back down again with microoptimizations 22:36:31 ais523, I don't read asm because CISC asm is bloody hard to read 22:36:36 really RISC is ok 22:36:44 but x86 asm is just a pain to read 22:36:53 x86_64 even more spo 22:36:54 so* 22:36:59 AnMaster: ABI is still harder to read 22:37:02 trust me on this 22:37:07 ais523, hm? 22:37:18 I mean, what sort of asm can't copy from one variable to another without a temporary? 22:37:19 I I read the ABI *specs* for x86_64 22:37:28 AnMaster: I mean ABI the asm used by gcc-bf 22:37:34 I deliberately chose a confusing acronym 22:37:37 but it tends to confuse people 22:37:41 ah 22:38:15 ais523, well I'd say confusing people is a function of confusing acronym 22:38:31 yes 22:38:36 but also a drawback 22:38:39 I mean, what sort of asm can't copy from one variable to another without a temporary? <-- the temporary is a variable too 22:38:45 so... 22:38:45 AnMaster: yes 22:38:53 but it can't be copied to or from 22:39:02 ais523, that way you end up with infinite number of temporaries 22:39:06 in ABI, when I say "move", I mean "move" 22:39:06 to copy each temporary 22:39:09 which is absurd 22:39:10 you can move data without a temporary 22:39:15 just moves the data 22:39:16 even for brainfuck 22:39:19 and even for intercal 22:39:21 so it isn't in its original location 22:39:28 there are lots of non-copy ways to set a value 22:39:36 ais523, but for copy? 22:39:36 for instance, there's double transfer addition 22:39:50 which is effectively a+=c; b+=c; c=0; 22:39:59 you can make a copy that uses a temporary out of that 22:40:05 and a zero-cell instruction 22:40:18 wow 22:40:38 transfer addition, double transfer addition, and transfer subtraction are the basis of the whole language 22:40:59 there's also transfer addition with carry, which is different from any other add-with-carry you've ever seen 22:41:38 ais523, how? 22:41:47 well, the carry isn't stored anywhere 22:42:00 and the bytes can be taddc'd in any order 22:42:07 the carry is applied directly to the result 22:42:25 which means that a taddc needs an extra argument saying how many bytes it is from the top of the result 22:44:09 ais523, also cfunge tends to prefer memcpy() instead of copying each entry of a struct, even though it may copy padding.. I guess that will be worse for gcc-bf? 22:44:22 taddc? 22:44:28 transfer add with carry 22:44:31 ah 22:44:34 asm instructions always have names like that 22:44:38 and why would I break the tradition? 22:45:19 ais523, however while the memcpy isn't either slower or faster on normal systems for cfunge (I profiled) it is easier and simpler to use memcpy 22:45:29 and do deep copy on whatever is left 22:45:40 AnMaster: it's not a problem either way, actually 22:45:48 gcc-bf will optimise memcpy to some extent 22:45:48 ais523, really? 22:45:54 just as soon as I finish deoptimising newlib 22:45:55 interesting 22:45:59 haha 22:46:01 stupid optimisations making the wrong assumptions 22:46:06 ais523, like what ones? 22:46:15 like copying an int is faster than copying a char 22:46:43 ais523, well it is reasonable since int should be word size iirc? However I may be wrong 22:46:51 AnMaster: int can't be 8 bits in C 22:46:56 and the word size in gcc-bf is 8 22:47:00 I set int to 32 anyway 22:47:04 because everyone assumes it's 32 22:47:07 after all x86 defines word to some small value for compatibility 22:48:28 night 22:48:47 night 22:49:18 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 22:49:27 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:50:41 http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/6/6d/Hmmm.jpg 22:56:42 * oerjan thinks encyclopedia dramatica should protect its main page better 22:57:32 is its main page protected? 22:58:21 i shouldn't imagine so, since it contained a porn spam popup when i visited 23:00:11 oerjan: That was probably... an ad. 23:00:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:00:17 Crazy I know. 23:00:23 * ehird checks 23:00:25 Yes, that is an ad. 23:00:27 I have seen them elsewhere. 23:00:30 -!- slereah has joined. 23:00:46 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 23:23:56 (define (bye . args)(for-each display args))(bye "gn8" " " "esoteric" " " channel") 23:24:13 bye KingOfKarlsruhe 23:24:16 gnate? 23:24:23 goodnight presumably 23:24:39 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:25:54 yes 23:25:55 but 23:25:55 :P 23:26:40 gnot to worry 23:35:45 -!- moozilla has joined. 23:39:14 Gnashing gnats gnaw gnarled gnostic gnome's gnus. 23:40:53 ... 23:40:57 oerjan: most of those are software products 23:41:03 gnash (flash viewer) 23:41:05 gnats (ada compiler) 23:41:07 gnaturally. 23:41:14 gnome (duh) 23:41:18 gnus (news reader for emacs) 23:49:02 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | no i don't. 2008-10-03: 00:23:22 -!- CO2Games has joined. 00:51:18 -!- danopia_ has joined. 00:59:49 -!- danopia has quit (Nick collision from services.). 00:59:52 -!- danopia_ has changed nick to danopia. 01:10:23 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 01:50:28 -!- danopia has quit (Connection timed out). 01:51:07 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 01:51:15 -!- danopia has joined. 01:58:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:29:00 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 02:29:35 :O 02:32:24 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 02:32:39 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Client Quit). 02:35:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("Nothing to see here"). 02:37:20 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 02:51:15 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:07:28 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 03:47:27 -!- hmetz has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:57:08 -!- cherez has joined. 03:57:59 -!- cherez has left (?). 05:00:37 -!- appletizer has joined. 05:07:00 -!- appletizer has left (?). 05:49:02 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | we can have nil = \x y -> y. 05:59:02 who here might be willing to write me a simple test program that utilizes all of the commands in this instruction set I made? 06:00:10 I'll take that as a nobody 06:37:03 Well, it's school time 06:37:04 So mehbe later 06:47:02 -!- danopia has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 06:52:18 -!- danopia has joined. 07:02:11 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:15:03 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:43:04 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 07:55:10 -!- danopia has quit (Network is unreachable). 07:55:50 -!- danopia has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:34:15 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 09:34:43 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 10:56:05 -!- danopia_ has joined. 10:58:23 -!- danopia has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 10:58:29 -!- danopia_ has changed nick to danopia. 11:49:02 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but we originally (mists of time) come from Scotland. 11:51:06 hm that topic makes sense in the context of the first section 11:51:20 "the backlog, but we came from scotland", is that true? 11:51:43 it *almost* makes sense 11:54:02 Yes; the "mists of time" remark makes it sound like "but even before the backlog, though it says 'entire', there was the time when we came from Scotland". 11:54:53 fungot: Why don't you ever say anything clever like that? 11:54:53 fizzie: at least, it mostly works, but it 12:00:33 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:00:41 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:09:22 mostly yeah 12:09:48 fizzie, how often do you update the language db for fungot with new logs? 12:09:49 AnMaster: yeah the first one 12:10:05 fungot, first what? 12:10:05 AnMaster: i understand f has an alternative syntax 12:10:19 fungot, what f? 12:10:20 AnMaster: are we allowed to submit an interpreter in basic and don't release the source 12:11:01 fungot, Interpreter for what? And also it sounds like a truly horrible idea to use BASIC for it anyway.... 12:11:01 AnMaster: i got the control wrong? 12:11:09 fungot, Control for what? 12:11:26 ^echo optbot 12:11:26 optbot optbot 12:11:27 AnMaster: amb(1,2,3) returns 1 2 or 3 12:11:27 fungot: good 12:11:27 optbot: yeah drscheme from debian package installed nicely but drscheme wont launch, complains about that? 12:11:29 fungot: :DD 12:11:29 optbot: thats worse than fnord 12:11:30 fungot: <3::=3<*3*; *3*3::=3*3*; *3*>::=3> 12:11:30 optbot: it's in the 12:11:31 fungot: How about have integer literals repeat? So + adds 1 to top of stack, and +9 adds ten. 12:11:32 optbot: works nicely enough in w3m, but i 12:11:32 fungot: It is suppose to give me a message that it knows the we are ~exec in somethine 12:11:55 worse than fnord? 12:11:58 *shudder* 12:17:49 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:18:53 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:34:31 who here might be willing to write me a simple test program that utilizes all of the commands in this instruction set I made? 12:34:46 CO2Games: I'm busy right now, but I might try later depending on how easy it is 12:34:49 could you give me a link? 12:42:21 ais523, wasn't it he that made the bloated brainfuck based lang without support for nested loops? 12:42:29 though he fixed that iirc 12:42:33 not sure 12:42:53 still, BF-based langs are common ways to get into esoprogramming 12:42:58 even I wrote one 12:43:12 (I changed the semantics of [ and , to make the language reversible, not sure how usable the result is) 12:56:22 hi ehird 12:57:04 Hm 12:57:11 what will memcpy() do on size = 0 12:57:20 not sure, it might be undefined 12:57:26 if it isn't, almost certainly nothing 12:57:57 ais523, I can't find any mention in any man page about the behaviour at least 12:58:15 no mention = undefined 12:58:17 try looking at the C standard? 12:58:21 ais523, wasn't it he that made the bloated brainfuck based lang without support for nested loops? 12:58:24 also, yes, no mention = undefined 12:58:25 it was interesting, actually 12:58:46 and you don't need nested loops for TCness, one loop + if is enough 12:59:10 hmm... come to think of it, BF is probably Turing-complete with only two levels of nested [] 12:59:58 * AnMaster fixes that code 13:02:11 ais523, C99 makes no mention of it either 13:02:33 no mention = undefined, it's a general rule in that standard 13:02:52 The memcpy function copies n characters from the object pointed to by s2 into the 13:02:52 object pointed to by s1. If copying takes place between objects that overlap, the behavior 13:02:52 is undefined. 13:02:54 is all 13:03:11 ais523, however for n = 0 that should mean "copies 0 bytes" 13:03:22 so not sure if that counts as "no mention" 13:09:19 AnMaster 13:09:22 if you're not sure 13:09:23 and it's not mentioned 13:09:25 it's undefined 13:09:45 Hm. 13:09:48 I imagine he still has me on ignore. 13:10:00 ehird, depends on how you interpret 7.21.2.1.2 13:10:12 which was what I quoted above 13:10:17 AnMaster: in which numbering scheme? ISO's or ANSI's? 13:10:19 AnMaster: if you're not sure, or you think it's ambiguous, and it's not mentioned, it's undefined. 13:10:21 end 13:10:59 ais523, the section number in the pdf + paragraph number. File says "ISO/IEC 9899:TC3" 13:11:10 ah, ok, ISO numbering scheme 13:11:28 C standardisation is a bit stupid, as ANSI and ISO both put out identical standards except they numbered the sections differently 13:11:34 ais523, heh 13:11:36 which makes it very hard to cite part of the standard correctly... 13:12:22 ais523, this was the most uptodate version of the standard I could get hold of. I think it has some spelling corrections and similiar. Considering it is dated 2007 Sep 7. 13:12:41 yes 13:12:51 interestingly, the ones you get hold of are newer than the official published versions 13:13:02 ais523, hm? I think I found it using google 13:13:10 due to some crazy ISO copyright stuff, the official standards cost money and aren't legally online anywhere 13:13:11 it was a pain to find what seemed to be the right version 13:13:14 but all the drafts are published 13:13:14 and open 13:13:22 thus you most likely found the newest drafy 13:13:23 *draft 13:13:33 ais523, it was from ISO or IEEE or IEC website iirc 13:13:37 yes 13:13:41 or maybe open-std or whatever 13:13:43 due to the working group publishing them there 13:13:54 9899:TC3 is the third correction to C99, if I remember correctly 13:14:01 ais523, yes I think so 13:14:08 which will be incorporated into the next version of C if they ever put one out 13:14:46 ais523, however as far as I can tell compiler vendors such as GNU and Intel, seem to refer to last such correction version 13:15:06 pretty sure I saw references to that in both cases 13:15:28 i haaaaaaaate IEEE and ISO and all closed standards organizations 13:15:29 ffff 13:15:34 ehird, agreed 13:15:40 standards should be open 13:15:47 that is the point of a standard 13:16:07 you cant even get the fucking ISO date format standard without paying like $100 13:16:10 that's bullcrap. 13:16:19 yes, I share in your anger, both of you 13:18:01 also 13:18:02 Err is stddef.h C89, C99 or POSIX? 13:18:02 iso dates 13:18:05 actually kinda suck: 13:18:12 2008-W40-5 13:18:13 W = week number. 13:18:14 seriously. 13:18:16 what the christ. 13:18:34 AnMaster: headers really need manpages... 13:18:39 AnMaster: can't remember off the top of my head 13:18:49 also 13:18:51 what ISO idiot 13:18:56 decied that 'T' was a good separator 13:18:58 ehird, it got one here, but it doesn't say where it comes from 13:19:09 T just makes it impossible to make out the day from the time 13:19:42 2008-W40-5 <-- Y10K.... 13:19:59 and if you want to avoid months, just use "day of year" or something 13:20:01 AnMaster: Yes, ISO 8601 doesn't support more than 4 digits to a year. 13:20:15 AnMaster: But the example I pasted: valid iso 8601 date 13:20:16 though both week and day of year seriously fuck up on leap years 13:20:20 However 13:20:27 so month is pretty sane 13:20:28 I don't give a shit about the Y10K problem. 13:20:41 ehird, heh ok 13:20:43 too far off 13:20:43 well, it's maybe not a problem when referring to now 13:20:51 we won't ever need more than 640 KB RAM either 13:20:53 Yes, software from the 1970s should be made to work in 2000. 13:20:55 but Y10K is certainly a problem when referring to things that will happen in the far future 13:20:59 (2038 is a reasonable problem) 13:21:02 but 13:21:11 think about how far Y10K is away 13:21:15 and think about in history 13:21:18 the progression of technology 13:21:21 what if your lifespan was 10000 years? 13:21:21 also moore's law 13:21:21 very near on geological scales 13:21:25 and...y10k is bullshit 13:21:25 then would you worry? 13:21:32 also, half the date formats I see have a Y1BC problem 13:21:33 AnMaster: Yes, but it's not. 13:21:47 ais523, Y1BC? 13:21:48 and dates BC are certainly within the scope of things that people might want to refer to 13:21:50 oh 13:21:50 right 13:21:58 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:22:02 you mean 0/1 problem 13:22:03 hmm 13:22:06 which is plain messy 13:22:07 AnMaster: i think that's a new kind of fallacy 13:22:25 "You don't think X? Well, what about ? Would you think X then?" 13:23:01 ehird, it is a philosophical construct for exploring your mind or something 13:23:02 ;P 13:23:07 AnMaster: Deeeeeep. 13:23:11 AnMaster: not just that, try writing, say 15 March 4 BC in ISO format 13:23:19 there isn't an obvious way to do it 13:23:22 * ehird considers making all his programs test for >= Y10K 13:23:25 and yes, 0/1 is messy too 13:23:29 ais523, Well, the calender changed since then 13:23:29 soo 13:23:35 what calender 13:23:35 and if so, print "Why the fuck are you using this outdated piece of shit, seriously, it's thousands of years old!" 13:23:36 ehird: also test for more than 30 days in September 13:23:40 "8 thousand or so years old!" 13:23:42 "Christ!" 13:23:50 AnMaster: hmm... the one they were using at the time, so Julian, I reckon 13:24:04 ais523, what about other cultures? 13:24:16 Why so centered on Europe? 13:24:19 and there was a big row at Wikipedia about autoformatting dates, because they claimed that reformatting a date implies a different calendar 13:24:20 what about China? 13:24:29 AnMaster: well the date I used was significant in Roman history if I have my dates right 13:24:44 and taking the format in China would make more sense if I had used a Chinese date format to start with 13:24:48 but yes, I agree with you 13:25:31 ais523, + they didn't use leapyears for a long time, so you would have to consider that too 13:25:40 probably 13:25:50 back then they definitely used leapyears 13:25:54 but 1 every 4 years 13:25:58 no corrections for centuries 13:26:05 ais523, ah right. 13:26:12 this explains why the extra day was added to February 13:26:18 because for ages it was the last month of the year 13:26:32 I'm not entirely sure why or when new year moved from March 1 to January 1 13:26:37 anyway considering when a date more than maybe 100-200 years old actually *was* is just too painful 13:26:52 this is why proleptic Gregorian was invented, I think 13:26:55 ais523, what weekday was it for example? 13:27:06 it's the current calendar, but projected backwards through time 13:27:09 which as far as I understand it, you need for ISO format 13:27:10 right? 13:27:15 ais523: you don't mean 15 March 44 BC? 13:27:17 and yes, probably 13:27:21 oerjan: yes, that was it 13:27:31 I knew there was something wrong with it, just wasn't sure what... 13:27:51 the 15 March itself is enough of a clue there :) 13:27:58 yes 13:27:59 ais523, it would have been different, iirc the romans moved the point of their new year once in their history at least. No idea when that was 13:28:05 but I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere 13:28:34 could have been earlier or later 13:28:37 I'm not entirely sure why or when new year moved from March 1 to January 1 13:28:49 its quite odd 13:28:53 ehird, ah thanks, must have missed that line 13:28:55 shouldnt the start of the year be the start of a season, really 13:29:00 and I think I heard the reason 13:29:09 i mean... 13:29:14 year starting in december would make sense 13:29:20 something about having time to prepare for wars after elections 13:29:22 or such 13:29:34 ehird, why December? that is the middle of the winter 13:29:39 no not the middle 13:29:42 but well in it 13:29:49 far from the start of the season 13:30:05 wait 13:30:12 AnMaster: what are the swedish seasons 13:30:20 see, i forgot to think 13:30:25 that other countries had different seasons :-P 13:30:51 ehird: what about it? 13:30:54 AnMaster: winter solstice 13:30:59 ais523: wat 13:31:03 well, mostly the northern hemisphere has one set, the southern hemisphere has the opposite, and places near the equator are weird 13:31:03 ehird, spring (vår), summer (sommar), autumn (höst), winter (vinter) 13:31:08 but there are lots of exceptions 13:31:09 or what did you mean? 13:31:13 it's logical to start on a solstice or equinox 13:31:19 AnMaster: same months, then, ok, it's probably my fault 13:31:19 oerjan, yes 13:31:22 its early 13:31:23 [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 119 seconds. 13:31:25 not bad! 13:31:28 ehird, well months are mostly the same too 13:31:33 what months are in winter this hemisphere... 13:31:37 i was thinking it started in december 13:31:40 * ehird is tired, confused, bla 13:31:45 ehird, depends on how far north you are 13:31:51 * ehird nods 13:32:10 which, i think, explains why start of a season is a crap year start point 13:32:11 :-p 13:32:26 if you define winter based on mean temperature. Which iirc is the the basis for the official definitions used in Sweden 13:32:49 something like Spring when mean temperature have been over x degrees for at least y days in a row 13:32:56 don't know exact values 13:33:23 (so even if it get colder just a few days later, it is still spring then) 13:33:28 winter here starts in december 13:33:31 not december 1 though obviously 13:33:34 in the UK they have a whole television series dedicated to trying to determine when Spring starts by watching the behaviour of the wildlife 13:33:50 ais523: haha, i haven't heard of that 13:33:56 ehird, well the temperature for winter usually happens in middle of November or earlier 13:34:08 with people sending in evidence from over the country 13:34:14 well its october right now, and i'm freezing :-) 13:34:14 here that is 13:34:15 although mostly it's just an excuse to show cute pictures of baby foxes and such 13:34:18 ehird, so am I 13:34:26 but still just autumn iirc 13:34:33 yea 13:34:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_(season)#Definition_of_spring 13:34:58 ehird: I'm surprised you missed it, they generally advertise it furiously in the weather programs on the BBC during March 13:35:10 ais523: i don't generally watch all that much tv 13:35:15 ah, ok 13:35:18 wtf, "Summer" have a "popular culture" section 13:35:20 that's insane 13:35:20 I mostly watch it for the theme music 13:35:21 hehe 13:35:32 has* 13:35:33 ais523: you still haven't named it, i may have heard of it in the back of my mind :-) 13:35:35 but forgotten about it 13:35:38 AnMaster: everything on Wikipedia has a popular culture section or will have one eventually, it's one of the Rules of the Internet 13:35:44 ehird: Springwatch 13:35:51 ahh, that thing 13:36:01 yeah, i knew of it but forgotten 13:36:14 ais523, it is easy in Sweden, since it is officially defined based on mean temperature 13:36:24 ais523: is that the official story though, it's trying to figure out the start of spring? 13:36:26 hahahahah 13:36:28 ais523: i vaguely recall an xkcd on that 13:36:31 yes, it is the official story 13:36:33 "SMHI definierar vår som när dygnsmedeltemperaturen är stigande och över noll grader i minst sju dagar." 13:36:38 translation shortly 13:36:49 but as I said it's mostly an excuse to show cute wildlife pictures 13:38:37 "The first month of the year continued to be Ianuarius, as it had been since 153 BC." from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar 13:38:42 SMHI (Swedish Met office basically) defines spring as: when the mean temperature of the full-24 hour period (don't know English word, in Swedish dag indicates the 12 hours the sun is up, but dygn the full 24 hours) is increasing and is over 0 degrees for at least 7 days in a row 13:39:01 oerjan: ok, so it was a pretty old change 13:39:02 would really like to know the name for 24 hour period in English, I assume there is one 13:39:15 assuming day is just the 12 "non-night" hours 13:39:27 if it isn't then what is the name for just that part 13:39:32 ais523, ^ 13:39:43 AnMaster: they're both called "day" 13:39:45 which is really confusing 13:39:52 ais523, how confusing indeed 13:39:52 occasionally you have to say which you mean 13:40:33 ais523, anyway is there no such easy definition of spring in UK? 13:40:46 no, I don't think so 13:40:55 there are similar ones for the other seasons 13:41:09 day is 24 hours to me 13:41:16 but "today" means: 13:41:24 if it's day, -> this day 13:41:28 if it's night, -> following day 13:41:33 (where day in that definition means 12 hours) 13:41:42 it's only confusing if you think about it. 13:42:02 ah the summer definition is when it is over 10 degrees for 7 days in a row 13:42:10 http://xkcd.com/446/ was it 13:42:16 10 degrees, lol 13:42:24 you poor cold swedes :} 13:42:28 ehird, in north sweden that is reasonable 13:42:48 however where I live it is mostly 18-25 or so during the summer holidays 13:42:58 it's recently dipped below 10 C here 13:42:59 at least in July and August 13:43:06 oerjan, did that a few weeks ago here 13:43:21 maybe a couple weeks 13:44:42 9 today, says yr.no 13:44:54 idea 13:45:16 someone write an esolang for composing music (kind of an anti-fuge, i guess) 13:45:17 then 13:45:24 set some base characteristics about music 13:45:24 then 13:45:32 divide it into seperate parts for people 13:45:39 and we each write a program 13:45:42 and then they're stuck together 13:45:42 oerjan, what is the Norwegian equivalent for SHMI btw? 13:45:46 and that is #esoteric's anthem 13:45:53 what does SHMI stand for 13:45:59 ah 13:46:03 "Sveriges meteorologiska och hydrologiska institut" 13:46:20 "Meteorologisk institutt" in norway too 13:46:45 (that website is from them btw) 13:47:09 according to Swedish wikipedia, they also do oceanography stuff 13:47:19 although they compete with Storm Weather Center 13:48:08 oerjan, btw how is "yr.no" an abbreviation for "Meteorologisk institutt"..? I don't get it 13:48:31 it's not their main website 13:48:40 why yr.no though.. 13:48:43 it's a site they operate together with NRK 13:48:59 yr = er, wait a second 13:49:25 NRK is like SVT + SR right? 13:49:36 "drizzle", i think 13:49:37 (or for the UK ppl here: Like BBC) 13:49:43 AnMaster: yeah 13:50:12 -!- moozilla has quit (Connection timed out). 13:50:14 oerjan, "drizzle"? What is the Norwegian word for that? 13:50:20 "yr" :D 13:50:25 oh 13:50:26 right 13:50:51 hmm... there must be even more drizzle in Norway than there is in the UK for it to have a short name like that 13:50:52 read that as abbreviation... so I thought it was the y part only 13:51:11 haha 13:51:13 yr = drizzle 13:51:20 what a waste of a two letter word 13:51:21 don't know if there's a backronym for it 13:51:44 oerjan, intersting the Swedish word "yr" means vertigo 13:51:58 that's "r" in norwegian 13:52:03 and I suggest ais523 doesn't try to read something into *that* 13:52:05 well, the adjective 13:52:11 AnMaster: heh 13:52:34 actually "yr" also has another meaning which is slightly close 13:53:04 oerjan, hm yrsel would be the noun vertigo I think. 13:53:22 yr is indeed adjective in Swedish too 13:53:29 oerjan, also was that ör btw? 13:53:32 vertigo...ry? 13:53:36 how is vertigo an adjective 13:53:37 AnMaster: o with slash 13:54:17 "yr" also means "wild" 13:54:21 oerjan, I think "ör" in Swedish have something to do with fishing, though I may very well be confusing it with some similar word. Fishing never really interested me 13:54:35 oerjan, ah yes you can be "yr av glädje" in Swedish as well 13:54:55 which is not same yr as "yr av att stå i toppen på ett torn och titta ned" 13:55:29 cannot find "r" in swedish wiktionary 13:55:40 oerjan, may be dialect then 13:56:11 Swedish wikipedia says it is a place name 13:56:12 hm 13:56:17 well that too 13:57:30 actually there's a norwegian fish known as "uer", pronounced "ur" in my dialect at least 13:57:31 hm apperently I was wrong, it is an old word, still found in placenames: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svenska_ortnamns%C3%A4ndelser#-.C3.B6r 13:57:41 oerjan, that may in fact be öring? 13:57:43 or whatever 13:57:44 also, "rret" = "trout" 13:57:55 trout, no clue what that is in Swedish 13:58:01 I probably know the Swedish word 13:58:08 I just don't know which one it actually is 13:58:08 that's ring 13:58:14 oerjan, oh 13:58:36 or wait 13:58:47 "salmon trout" 13:59:32 apparently there are several "trouts" 13:59:48 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trout 14:00:06 also, a favorite fish for slapping people with 14:00:09 well, it's not exactly an endangered specie 14:00:13 *species 14:00:18 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol. 14:00:27 i don't want a trout vs. cod joke. 14:00:29 oklopol: trying to be less fishy? 14:00:49 :P 14:00:56 trout vs. cod? 14:00:57 eh 14:00:58 you can't use that joke forever 14:00:58 what? 14:01:12 "uer" = "redfish" in english i believe 14:01:14 AnMaster: well aren't they like fisherizers? 14:01:22 * AnMaster googles fisherizers 14:01:30 one hit 14:01:38 1. Lists (PondTasksRemaining) - View All Lists Edit List Item Web ... 14:01:44 oh what the heck 14:02:09 oerjan, doesn't seem related 14:02:22 i'm not quite sure 14:02:45 uer = "Sebastes marinus" 14:02:51 fisherizers are fish 14:02:59 i thinking going via latin is the safest way of getting the terms correct 14:03:20 ring = "Salmo Trutta" 14:03:57 ah, "rose fish" the first 14:04:24 we would probably have all these cool fish names if the normans didn't invade :( 14:05:20 that redfish article is messed up 14:06:29 some vandalism 14:14:35 ssssss 14:14:54 * oerjan watches in horror as ehird turns into a snake 14:15:00 SSSSSSSSSSSsssssssssssss!!! 14:15:03 SSSSsssssssssssSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!! 14:15:08 * ehird spits poison at oerjan 14:15:09 SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS 14:15:22 note to self: stop encouraging ehird :D 14:15:26 * ehird decides poison is too slow-acting 14:15:32 * ehird gobbles up oerjan 14:15:35 *gulp* 14:15:37 SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS 14:15:52 * oerjan digs himself out ---|) 14:16:06 * ehird eats his own stomach to stop oerjan 14:16:07 SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS 14:16:41 * oerjan watches in horror as ehird turns into a singularity by eating himself 14:16:55 MWAHAHAH- I mean, SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS 14:18:15 * oerjan buys an antidote on ebay 14:18:37 fortunately this is very slow poison 14:19:03 * ehird cuts ethernet cable 14:19:06 >:D 14:19:07 SSSSSSSSSS 14:19:34 * oerjan curses his landlady for not getting the wireless fixed 14:21:55 don't tell me i have to do something drastic like walking outside to a pharmacy 14:22:30 just buy them on the way to the bus 14:22:53 there are no shops between here and the bus stop 14:23:02 oerjan: how can you walk outside 14:23:05 i've eaten you 14:23:11 did you know one of your things is you need to hurry to get into the bus in time? 14:23:11 er 14:23:13 i mean... 14:23:15 SSSSSSSSSSSSSsssssssssssSSSSSS 14:24:16 oklopol: you mean, i don't log off until i have to leave. that's different. 14:24:51 oerjan: but you need to get in the bus. the hurrying isn't the point i guess. 14:25:19 if i'm _really_ in a hurry for a given bus i usually wait until the next bus 14:25:53 usually because i didn't manage to tear myself off the computer 14:25:55 but you still need to get in the bus :P it's your thing 14:26:06 ok ok 14:26:15 for a certain value of "need" 14:27:09 there _used_ to be a grocery shop next to the bus stop, but they tore it down and built a home for the elderly 14:27:21 oerjan: Stop talking. I have eaten you. 14:27:34 hi ais523 14:27:42 and without my cell phone too 14:27:44 oerjan: okay, perhaps your thing is just mentioning the bus occasionally? it's just that's a bit more boring. 14:28:48 * oerjan resigns to being digested 14:29:32 * ehird gives oerjan a laptop 14:29:47 Go hack in to the firewall mainframe IP with visual basic. 14:29:54 You can route the DLL past my stomach walls. 14:29:57 SSSSSSSSSSSssssssss 14:30:17 visual basic? i think i prefer death. 14:30:21 * oerjan ducks 14:30:35 * ehird watches his stomach acids nibble at oerjan's fingers 14:30:46 also i don't think i ever claimed to be that kind of hacker 14:30:57 or much of any kind of hacker, really 14:31:08 Bah. 14:31:13 * ehird opens the door to his stomach. 14:31:21 Ther's the boring way out. 14:31:23 * oerjan rolls out 14:31:32 * ehird figurse out what to do with his singularity. 14:31:36 ... 14:31:37 eat it! 14:31:38 * ehird eats it 14:31:43 Mm. 14:31:45 Infinitely wholesome. 14:31:49 LHC eat your heart out 14:32:48 if our society were based on magic, the LHC might actually have _had_ a heart 14:33:39 and probably been an acronym for something else 14:33:54 Living Hell Converter or something 14:39:11 So. 14:39:46 -!- AnMaster has quit ("Thunderstorm"). 14:41:56 Legendary Hat Collector 14:42:58 i think it's not much more than it was before it was what it now is it now? 14:43:42 * oerjan refuses to believe oklopol is trying to make sense 14:44:32 well what to refuse when you're being asked and if they think they already know then what can you do really i don't think anything much what do you think? 14:45:06 i don't, definitely not what it thinks they are. 14:45:28 encyclopedia of algorithms, that's one sexy book 14:45:38 it's like condensed sex 14:45:44 only algorithms 14:50:10 oklopol, you are perverted 14:50:16 Does bubble sorting make you hard? 14:51:05 only merge sort i would imagine 14:51:23 maybe also heap sort 14:51:45 i like heap sort and mergesort better than quicksort at least 14:51:58 but can't say i don't enjoy bubble sort as well 14:54:20 What about bogosorting? 14:54:23 Are you into that? 14:54:30 It's okay, nothing to be ashamed about 15:08:11 not particularlyy 15:08:33 *particularly 15:08:41 i'm not that interested in sorting altogether 15:08:48 those finns and their double vowels 15:12:44 mse 15:14:57 Today on the "Paths that make me RAGE" channel: 15:15:00 /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.5/lib/python2.5/site-packages/ 15:39:04 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7650103.stm 15:39:50 "Medicine: Dan Ariely for demonstrating that expensive fake medicine is more effective than cheap fake medicine." 15:40:10 xDDDDD 16:07:14 -!- Ilari has joined. 16:22:33 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:28:33 hmm... anyone here know any lazy imperative languages? 16:28:49 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:28:56 hi Hiato 16:29:16 hey ais523 16:29:32 what's cooking? 16:29:32 * ais523 is idling and saying hi to people in the hope of starting a conversation 16:29:49 and working on an insane project for University which many would consider esolang-related 16:30:59 :o 16:31:10 quite 16:31:27 that's why I asked if anyone knew of any lazy imperative languages earlier 16:31:42 i think those would be esoteric by definition 16:31:58 well, there's one involved in my University project 16:32:01 sane laziness requires purity, imperativeness is the opposite of purity 16:32:13 but it acts like an eager language really 16:32:33 we're implementing it by compiling into a functional lanugage 16:32:42 with variables stored in what is similar to a State monad 16:32:58 commands happen eagerly due to the monad-chains, it's just expressions that are lazy 16:33:18 -!- LinuS has joined. 16:33:33 ic so a language with strict distinction betwen commands and expressions might work 16:33:50 aka haskell, really :D 16:34:29 someone said haskell is the world's finest imperative language 16:34:44 yes, the language reminds me of a language which is Haskell really 16:34:48 just disguised as Algol 16:35:38 also, my experiences with it, and other experiences with brainfuck, convince me that reading the value of a variable is not as fundamental an operation as was first thought 16:35:42 Simon Peyton-Jones, apparently 16:35:52 in brainfuck, reading the value of a variable sets it to 0, in most cases 16:36:01 thus you have to be clever to duplicate a variable's value 16:36:15 hardware compilation has the same problem, but with functions 16:36:30 if you call a function more than once, you need some way to return the result to the right physical location 16:36:45 and if you call a function more than once simultaneously, you need two physical copies of the function 16:38:06 does all this sound esoteric enough for this channel? 16:38:16 yeah 16:38:41 aaaaaaaaaaaaafssfggjtykuyiliuio;;;opp;p;pp;p;p;;p;p;ikkhbnfcccdregrjukuyllikjujugtfrdeddfrghhhjjhugyfgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgddgdgdgdgdgdgddddd 16:38:42 ^ discuss 16:39:12 ehird: i thought you were 13, not 3 16:39:25 oerjan: oh, that 1 was a typo 16:39:30 3 year olds can't type very well 16:39:37 butt 16:39:40 probably 16:40:03 those french and their double consonants 16:41:31 there is actually remarkably little keyboard repetition in that 16:41:56 mostly at the ends 16:42:51 also, you have failed to provide a semantics for your language 16:43:12 I don't know the semantics or the syntax of the language in question yet 16:43:14 just the paradigm 16:43:19 i was speaking to ehird :D 16:43:24 yes, I guessed 16:43:35 also, what's the name for the paradigm VHDL uses? 16:43:39 I can't remember 16:43:42 VHDLy 16:45:11 brrrrrrrrrrr 16:45:14 freeeeeeeeeeeezing 16:45:18 "Hardware description languages" is in the category list 16:51:35 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 17:18:45 -!- jix has joined. 17:19:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:20:32 * ais523 ponders what a fully functional hardware description language would be like 17:23:11 Well, I am fully functional. 17:23:16 And trained in many techniques. 17:23:22 heh 17:23:26 Also, what about the Lisp machines? 17:23:29 are you a hardware description language? 17:23:38 but yes, Lisp machines are interesting 17:23:45 they're functional hardware interpreters, though 17:23:57 Hurray, I don't know the difference! :D 17:23:57 I'm wondering if it's possible to /compile/ a functional program into hardware 17:24:05 Oh. 17:24:14 I thought that's what Lisp machines did. 17:24:22 no, they run Lisp nativelt 17:24:23 *natively 17:24:28 that's an interpreter, not a compiler 17:24:37 hardware compilation produces a piece of hardware that only runs one program 17:25:12 Isn't the very fact of writing the program on a lisp machine kinda compiling it? 17:25:19 Like writing machine code on a usual computer 17:25:35 well, a Lisp machine has lisp as its machine code 17:26:00 Yes. 17:28:28 ais523: wrong. 17:28:33 about what? 17:28:35 Lisp machines? 17:28:42 certainly they were capable of running more than one program 17:28:42 'a lisp machine has lisp as its machine code' 17:28:52 which makes them interps 17:29:13 even in imperative languages, an x86 processor (for instance) is an interpreter for x86 machine language 17:29:30 hardware compilation goes a step further, you start with a program and end up with a piece of hardware which runs only that program 17:30:12 Isn't it more like a piece of code on the hardware? 17:30:28 Slereah_: what, Lisp machines, x86, or hardware compilation? 17:31:06 I'm getting confused 17:31:15 I should go back to watching this Batman reveiw 17:39:55 -!- Mony has joined. 17:41:27 plop 17:42:00 Hulo tharn french people 17:49:02 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%r" % (math.exp(math.pi)**1j)). 17:54:40 -!- AnMaster has joined. 18:11:36 hm this computer's inside really makes no sense... 18:13:11 like that main connector thing for the mobo, huge unruly thing normally even. But here the connector is mounted such that the cable is resting against the cpu heatsink to reach the contact. there is no other way 18:13:20 wtf did whoever built this computer think? 18:14:26 (constrast with the dell close to it, while it's inside is pretty strange, it is all very organised, and easy to service 18:28:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:40:37 AnMaster: Re fungot's language model, I haven't bothered to update it at all with new logs yet. 18:40:38 fizzie: never heard of it before and after it now 18:45:40 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:48:07 fungot: what, you have anterograde amnesia? how awful! 18:48:08 oerjan: i'm starting to think there's no way it could conceivably be interpreted as ellipsis for the internal macro, which *is* a function. 18:51:13 a person who can only remember the future would rock 18:51:41 iirc Merlin did that in some legends or books 18:52:34 oerjan: hmm 18:52:46 so you could remember your teachings, you would have to have been taught some time in the future 18:52:47 BUT 18:52:52 you'll immediately forget your teaching as soon as you recieve it 18:53:00 so: you need to be taught in your craft on your deathbed 18:53:31 for added weirdness, also age backwards 18:53:58 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:58:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 18:58:04 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 18:59:20 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 18:59:23 mm lovely 18:59:40 guys i discovered something interesting about english syntax/semantics that might be interesting in an esolang :o 18:59:52 it's insane? 19:00:05 :P 19:00:06 but we all knew that already! 19:00:22 english has disjunction scope quantifiers. :o 19:00:25 er 19:00:27 not quantifiers 19:00:28 indicators 19:00:42 [citation needed] 19:00:58 consider: 19:01:15 John is looking for a fedora or a bowler 19:01:18 this could mean either 19:01:49 John is looking for some hat X | (X is-a fedora) or (X is-a bowler) 19:01:56 or it could mean 19:02:12 Fedoras are bettar 19:02:22 (John is looking for some hat X | X is-a fedora) or (John is looking for some hat X | X is-a bowler) 19:02:34 what's the difference?' 19:02:47 the difference is that in the first one 19:02:52 john is just looking for a hat 19:02:58 and the hat can be a fedora 19:03:01 oh, right 19:03:02 or it can be a bowler 19:03:05 he'd be happy with either 19:03:10 he just needs one or the other 19:03:13 in the SECONd however 19:03:20 he wants a specific kind of hat 19:03:25 only one kind of hat 19:03:28 but the speaker doesn't know which 19:03:30 yeah 19:03:33 right 19:03:42 so the disjunction has two different scopes 19:03:52 in one it has scope over the lower predication 19:04:00 fedora(x) | bowler(x) 19:04:15 while in th other it has scope over the whole statement 19:04:40 (seeks(John, x) & fedora(x)) | (seeks(John, x) & bowler(x)) 19:05:10 seeks(John, x) & (fedora(x) | bowler(x)) 19:05:23 but now consider what happens when we introduce "either" 19:05:30 John is looking for either a fedora or a bowler 19:05:36 here we still have both potential readings 19:05:54 "John is looking for either a fedora or a bowler and he doesn't care which" 19:05:59 "John is looking for either a fedora or a bowler and I know know which" 19:06:01 but but but! 19:06:10 and and and and 19:06:13 Either John is looking for a fedora or a bowler 19:06:20 this ONLY has the higher scope reading! 19:06:32 "Either John is looking for a fedora or a bowler, and he doesn't care which" == BAD 19:06:42 yes 19:06:43 "Either John is looking for a fedora or a bowler and I don't remember which" == FINE 19:07:05 so "either" can be used to force higher scope readings by placing it further left in the structure of the sentence 19:07:07 :o 19:07:14 that's actually quite an interesting scoping ambiguity 19:07:20 yeah 19:07:22 it totally is 19:07:32 there should be more ambiguity in programming languages 19:07:33 theres lots of crazy scope stuff like that in languages 19:07:49 there should more ambiguity with cool ambiguity resolution techniques 19:07:55 cise is really the only language i can think of where there's any ambiguity 19:08:09 we need a language where you have a disjunctive or, but you also have an or-scope indicator 19:08:24 oklopol: lexing Cyclexa 19:08:34 but it has precedence rules to resolve the ambiguity 19:08:57 theres also some cool scope stuff regarding question words 19:09:08 ais523: precedence rules aren't really distinct from just unambiguous parsing 19:09:09 for instance, in english 19:09:20 in cise, you may need to reparse at runtime, if types change 19:09:25 well, there's more than one way to tokenise things 19:09:25 oklopol: perl has some ambiguity in its syntax afair 19:09:30 but it's done statically 19:09:35 "what did john buy" has the reading "for what x's, john bought x" 19:09:39 in Cyclexa, anyway 19:09:52 in Perl there's more than one way to interpret some of the tokens 19:09:59 and which is chosen can vary at BEGIN-time 19:10:12 begin-time? 19:10:15 with the result that parsing Perl in finite time is impossible 19:10:18 i don't know shit about perl 19:10:20 and "who bought a hat" has the reading "for what people x, x bought a hat" 19:10:27 psygnisfive: yes 19:10:28 but what if you have two wh-phrases? 19:10:39 oklopol: you can set code that runs before the rest of the code is parsed 19:10:43 "who bought what" reads as "for what x and what y, x bought y" 19:11:06 so NORMALLY if you want scope over the sentence, you raise the WH phrase to the top/beginning of the sentence 19:11:21 but with two or more WH phrases, one has to remain low, and it STILL gets scope 19:11:53 hungarian, bulgarian, and serbocroatian, on the other hand, REQUIRE that you raise the WH phrases to get scope with them 19:11:54 psygnisfive: who bought, and what? 19:12:00 well i think it's just convention, because you *can* do "you bought what?" it's just that has quite a strongly emphasizing connotation on the what 19:12:06 hmm 19:12:09 "who bought, and what" is completely ungrammatical, oerjan :p 19:12:23 psygnisfive: no it isn't 19:12:24 oklopol: "you bought what?" is actually not g enerally a question 19:12:24 like 19:12:39 oerjan, yes it is. 19:12:47 oklopol: you're not just asking what the person bought 19:12:52 you're asking for CONFIRMATION of what you heard 19:13:09 "you bought WHAT? a COCKRING? no!" 19:13:27 psygnisfive: it's still a question 19:13:30 sure 19:13:38 but its a different kind of question 19:13:41 called an echo question 19:14:05 where you're not asking for new information but rather asking for a repetition of the phrase targeted by the WH replacement 19:14:12 that's true. 19:14:41 and similarly, you'd never ask "what did you buy?" when you want confirmation or repetition 19:14:43 ^echo what? 19:14:43 what? what? 19:14:44 but i don't find this that interesting 19:14:44 you'd sound deaf 19:14:48 "I bought a hat!" 19:14:53 "What did you buy?" 19:14:57 well, you could, actually 19:15:01 you'd just need special intonation 19:15:06 yes 19:15:16 but its not normal question intonation 19:15:26 its the same intonaiton on "what" in both echo questions 19:15:27 anyway 19:15:35 thats not what i meant to talk about :p 19:15:43 i see 19:15:54 there are interesting cases in english where scope can be pulled from a REALLY deeply embedded element 19:15:55 consider: 19:17:04 i will consider, although briefly 19:17:10 gumme a sec :p 19:17:19 i forgot the examples 19:17:31 only had time to read like 20 pages yesterday, so my quota for today is enough to keep me awake all night 19:17:48 do not consider, lest ye be considered 19:17:50 i don't want to slip from my 500p/week minimum 19:18:26 'ok consider: 19:18:42 *what* does John think [mary bought t] 19:18:48 where t indicates what *what* targets 19:19:00 e.g. for what X, John thinks [mary bought x] 19:19:17 now consider: 19:19:37 BAD: John thinks [*what* mary bought t] 19:19:42 but on the other hand: 19:19:49 John wonders [*what* mary bought t] 19:20:02 BAD: *what* does John wonder [Mary bought t] 19:20:29 that's just normal nesting 19:20:39 sure 19:20:42 in english it makes sense right 19:20:43 "what mary bought" there is a question embedded 19:20:50 yes it is! 19:20:54 yes! 19:21:01 but now check this out from chinese: 19:21:05 i'm probably missing your point 19:21:08 i will 19:21:13 well you need to see the chinese too ;) 19:21:20 ah 19:21:22 okily doc 19:21:32 keep in mind, chinese does NOT have any movement, so all the *what* phrases are in their original positions 19:21:34 it's all martian to me 19:21:38 glossing the chinese: 19:22:10 Zhangsan thinks [Lisi bought *what*] == *what* does Zhangsan think Lisi bought *t* 19:22:28 Zhangsan wonders [Lisi bought *what*] == Zhangsan wonders [*what* Lisi bought *t*] 19:22:42 the lower clauses are IDENTICAL in chinese 19:22:47 You and your linguistics. 19:22:53 psygnisfive: that's not all that interesting 19:23:10 but the verb specifies whether or not the lower clause can be interpreted as a question or a statement clause 19:23:12 question particles just happen to be context-insensitive, and can jump multiple levels up 19:23:14 hmm 19:23:19 oh 19:23:21 and thus BECAUSE the verb specifies this 19:23:26 if there IS a WH-phrase in the lower clause 19:23:41 the VERB decides whether or not the sentence AS A WHOLE is a question, or a statement. 19:23:56 that's actually quite an interesting type theoretical issue 19:24:19 simply because the verb specifies only one kind of clausal complement, and if there's a WH-phrase in that clausal complement, you can only interpret it one what, given the verb 19:24:20 its funky 19:24:20 :D 19:24:22 so how do you ask in chinese what someone is wondering about? :D 19:24:32 X wonders what 19:24:35 you wonder what 19:24:35 :P 19:24:56 but that's a *what* that targets the ENTIRE clausal complement 19:25:00 not something INSIDE the clausal complement 19:25:31 oerjan: it's a different issue how you ask what someone is wondering someone else bought 19:25:36 hmm 19:25:48 i think i failed to construct that 19:25:49 theres actually all sorts of really weird stuff that goes on with WH phrases 19:25:59 oklopol: yes you did 19:26:30 but you did so for precisely the same reasons we were just talking about :) 19:26:34 wonder takes a question phrase 19:26:45 a question clausal complement 19:26:57 psygnisfive: how do you say that? 19:27:02 and so that what, as in "ask *what* someone is wondering someone else bought" is a violation 19:27:04 it's not exactly something you ever need to ask 19:27:05 i mean, just look: 19:27:22 ask [*what* someone is wondering [someone else bought *t*]] 19:27:28 that's a violation as we pointed out earlier! :) 19:27:51 exact same violation as "*what* does john wonder [Mary bought *t*]" 19:27:52 well you gotta be able to ask that somehow 19:28:01 yes, you can ask, but periphrastically 19:28:11 but you can do it with two questions intermingled 19:28:11 and actually i think that's perfect english 19:28:17 oerjan: tru 19:28:22 oklopol, its not perfect english :p 19:28:25 its HORRIBLE english 19:28:37 psygnisfive: give me a better construction for it, will you? 19:28:39 but you're not native, you don't have these intuitions about english 19:28:42 what are you wondering whether i bought 19:28:47 that is not horrible english psygnisfive 19:28:50 horrible oerjan 19:28:53 -!- LinuS has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:28:55 absolutely horrible 19:29:05 oerjan's is horrible yes 19:29:06 but semantically meaningful 19:29:11 yes 19:29:14 but thats not the point oerjan 19:29:19 semantically we can understand a lot of stuff 19:29:29 psygnisfive: could you show me how to construct it better? 19:29:32 thats because we have a pragmatics system that can "make it work" 19:29:37 oklopol: its tricky to do in english 19:29:39 it'd be like.. 19:30:12 what is the thing such that john wonders i mary bought that thing 19:30:17 wonders if** 19:30:40 well yeah you used like a variable there 19:30:45 yep 19:30:50 that's better, i do admit that 19:30:55 theres no WH-raising construction in english that lets you get that reading tho 19:31:03 and thats just part of english syntax 19:31:03 i disagree on not having an intuition about english. 19:31:14 well you're wrong ;) 19:31:37 no psygnisfive 19:31:38 hes not 19:31:39 :| 19:31:41 my intuition has owned many natives. 19:31:46 you might have some intuition, yes ok. but i'd question it. 19:31:51 anyway 19:31:52 being native is not a magical way to know a language perfectly 19:31:57 all this linguistics is something up with which i will not put 19:32:10 interestingly, some languages DO let you say "what does john wonder mary bought" 19:32:12 :P 19:32:24 mitä john miettii maryn ostaneen 19:32:25 finnish 19:32:34 john miettii mitä mary osti 19:32:35 mitä is what 19:32:36 'What does John wonder Mary bought?' is fine english 19:32:47 -!- atrapado has joined. 19:32:53 oerjan: are you saying that linguists would not approve of "all this linguistics is something that i will not put up with"? 19:33:05 ehird: no its not, go ask some other people. 19:33:13 psygnisfive: perish the thought :D 19:33:17 psygnisfive: i think he was just making a complicated sentence for linguistic fun's sake 19:33:20 psygnisfive: yes, because one person saying its not fine english without evidence against two people saying it's fine... 19:33:25 you evidently win 19:33:33 oerjan: linguists wouldnt say that tho. 19:33:40 argh!!!!!!!! 19:33:42 so much evidence and arguments we're seeing here 19:33:45 ehird: unfortunately, ehird, there's actually been RESEARCH into this 19:33:57 psygnisfive: researching doesn't change the fact that its fine english 19:34:00 and the RESEARCH shows that most english speakers do not accept that sentence. 19:34:07 you can stamp 'THIS IS CRAP ENGLISH' on a sentence all you want, and it does not make it so 19:34:07 psygnisfive: they will however argue incessantly about how they don't say that ;D 19:34:12 meaning that its NOT fine in english. 19:34:24 oerjan: no, they wont 19:34:28 infact 19:34:38 most theories of syntax REQUIRE that such things are permitted 19:34:47 lol psygnisfive is proving oerjan's piont 19:34:48 :D 19:34:50 *point 19:35:03 oh, i see what you meant there 19:35:07 yes, we WILL argue that we dont say that :P 19:35:18 :D 19:35:28 because most people think we will. but they're confusing linguists with gradeschool english professors 19:35:43 same thing 19:35:44 :-) 19:35:55 linguists actually care about what SPEAKERS say, gradeschool english professors care what STRUNK AND WHITE say 19:36:24 THIS CRAP IS ENGLISH. THIS IS ENGLISH CRAP. ENGLISH IS THIS CRAP. 19:36:39 English: Is this crap? 19:36:39 oh thats another english thing 19:36:40 Yes. 19:36:57 "is" is the only main verb in american english that has sentential negation AFTER it. 19:37:02 consider: 19:37:09 I run <> I do not run 19:37:15 butts 19:37:18 Slereah_: butts 19:37:20 I eat pizza <> I do not eat pizza 19:37:24 etc etc 19:37:26 but 19:37:31 Slereah_: many butts? 19:37:37 I am a student <> I am not a student 19:37:44 interesting! 19:37:47 psygnisfive: I butts <> I not butts 19:37:59 auxiliary verbs do similar stuff. 19:38:03 psygnisfive: interestingness approved 19:38:08 :) 19:38:26 i think we should have an esolang with movement and funky scope. 19:38:31 well isn't that the way auxiliary verbs do it, and "is" is interesting because it does it *without* the subsentence 19:38:47 yeah, auxiliaries behave exactly like that 19:38:58 "i will not pizza" 19:39:03 * ehird pizzas 19:39:07 well thats not an auxiliary actually 19:39:11 its slightly different 19:39:11 but will wants an event, so... pizza would be converted to a verb 19:39:16 but yeah 19:39:20 more precisely, the FIRST auxiliary in the sentence appears before sentential negation 19:39:20 * ais523 remembers our discussion about gerunds 19:39:23 I'LL PIZZA YOU 19:39:26 IF YOU DON'T SHUT UP 19:39:29 unless theres a MODAL verb, like will, can, might, etc. 19:39:30 we now know that oklopol is programming 19:39:36 but what does "I am burning" mean? 19:39:40 in which case the first non-modal auxiliary appears AFTER the sentential negation 19:39:45 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:39:50 ais: i means at the moment you're in the process of burning 19:39:51 it* 19:40:06 do you really need that explained to you? come now. 19:40:11 plus 19:40:13 thats not a gerund 19:40:16 thats a progressive 19:40:22 or that you *are* the process of burning, although i'm not sure that can be literally true 19:40:34 no, I don't think I am 19:40:38 tho gerunds and progressives do share morphology in english. 19:40:41 but am I on fire, or am I performing the action of burning 19:40:44 psygnisfive: it's a gerund 19:40:48 the speaker decides it 19:40:51 oklopol: it's not. 19:40:55 gerund is a technical term. 19:40:58 it means something specific. 19:40:59 (actually neither, but the sentence I gave is ambiguous 3 ways) 19:41:12 most people learn it, but forget that it means what it means 19:41:20 as a gerund, wouldn't it mean "i am the act of burning" 19:41:21 and they confuse it with progressives. 19:41:30 yes, it could, i suppose 19:41:33 which, of course, is ambiguous still 19:41:34 * ehird gerunds 19:41:36 psygnisfive: then it was a gerund. 19:41:39 also psygnisfive 19:41:42 that was what the conversation was about 19:41:43 ##linguistics exists 19:41:44 :-p 19:41:53 *is what 19:41:58 i am thinking of burning this channel down 19:42:06 also ehird: notice i dont care 19:42:13 im talking about the esoteric properties of a language. 19:42:18 hence its appropriate for #esoteric. 19:42:22 OH NOW WHAT 19:42:30 anyway, yeah, oklopol 19:42:33 #esoteric is officially a channel about programming languages, not esoterica in general 19:42:36 OH NOW WHAT 19:42:39 and it is not the first natlang discussion here today, either 19:42:43 OTHERS HAVE DISAGREED WITH YOU. 19:42:53 oklopol: lets design a language with movement and weird scope stuff. :D 19:43:02 psygnisfive: ChanServ agrees with me. 19:43:04 -!- ehird has left (?). 19:43:04 -!- ehird has joined. 19:43:08 conteric! 19:43:11 'Welcome to the esoteric programming channel!' 19:43:30 this is where you are programmed to become esoteric 19:43:36 english is a language for programming other peoples minds to think what you want them to think 19:43:54 IS NOT 19:43:55 psygnisfive: psygnisfive sucks 19:44:00 HAHAHAA 19:44:01 TAKE THAT 19:44:06 psygnisfive: psygnisfive wants to commit suicide right now 19:44:10 and swallow. 19:44:26 * oerjan whacks ehird with a pizza platter ---\____ 19:44:29 but not you, since you're a horrible human being. 19:44:34 * ehird eats pizza platter 19:44:42 oklopol and slereah on the other hand.. 19:44:47 oklopol! 19:44:50 lets design this language 19:44:52 :T 19:44:55 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 19:44:56 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 19:45:04 if "little death" is an orgasm, then i guess "small suicide" would be like masturbation 19:45:07 it can have that weird quantification stuff i was on about a few months ago too 19:45:12 oklopol: deep 19:45:16 hahahahahahahahaha 19:46:06 not a perfect parallel but still :D 19:47:10 well i guess i should've made a pun, but that was a bit too far-fetched for me to be able to think of a way, without explicitly explaining the reference. 19:47:32 well, its just a non-analogy when an actual analogy would've been better 19:47:46 death : suicide !:: orgasm : masturbation 19:47:49 but still 19:47:51 it was funny 19:47:54 so shut up 19:48:01 :P 19:48:09 yes, i guess it's not a perfect parallel 19:48:22 is !:: a technical symbol? 19:48:22 btw guys 19:48:25 but "self-induced orgasm" sounds a bit booky 19:48:25 i just want to say 19:48:26 i love you 19:48:34 ...booky? 19:48:39 because i can make shut up like !:: and you understand what i mean 19:48:41 what the fuck. 19:48:43 oerjan: no its not but still :D 19:48:56 you understood it, did you not? 19:49:16 oklopol: bookish perhaps? 19:49:51 psygnisfive: no if you don't use the proper obscure technical terms how can it possibly be understandable? 19:49:56 oerjan: yes, that's what i meant, it's just i really tried to write "ish". 19:50:06 :P 19:50:22 noone else would understand the adhoc invention or extention or symbols like that 19:50:25 except programs 19:50:31 and ESPECIALLY except esopeople 19:50:32 <3 19:50:46 <4 19:50:52 i invent symbols all the time when explaining stuff to ppl 19:51:12 the problem is, as you just said, that this is really the only place where i don't need to explain the symbols 19:51:20 oklopol: what about when you're talking aloud? 19:51:41 he doesn't talk aloud. 19:51:56 oh that's right, he's finnish 19:52:00 they are always silent 19:52:07 :) 19:52:17 see? 19:52:21 even now he tries not to talk 19:52:27 ! 19:52:36 19:52:49 money! 19:52:54 munny munny munny 19:52:56 i want munnies 19:52:57 hm 19:53:03 hi AnMaster, join the fun. 19:53:07 * oerjan wonders what that char showed up as 19:53:10 AnMster, hey 19:53:10 anything interesting being discussed? 19:53:14 oerjan: 19:53:16 ? in a diamond 19:53:17 like.. 19:53:19 oerjan, what char? 19:53:19 19:53:24 € <-- that? 19:53:27 Euro 19:53:35 anmaster's i can see, interestingly 19:53:36 that explains the "money!" 19:53:38 i wonder why 19:53:57 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:53:57 i see EUR, spelled out 19:53:58 psygnisfive, my client always sends as utf8, but it does auto detection on incoming data 19:53:58 oh btw oklopol 19:54:00 i love you. 19:54:04 so the copy-paste would have translated 19:54:07 to utf8 19:54:11 ais523: if you recall the muture thing, i still have problems translating programs to a search that can work with partial solutions, which doesn't rule any search techniques out, but does make things harder 19:54:15 well 19:54:17 however I recommend oerjan change to utf8 encoding too 19:54:26 i guess you lack context to understand what i'm talking about 19:54:29 instead of whatever legacy encoding he use 19:54:52 psygnisfive: that's kinda cool 19:54:59 oerjan, ? 19:55:09 AnMaster: i tried earlier and failed 19:55:16 oerjan, it is easy in for example xchat 19:55:23 ¤ 19:55:25 just /charset UTF-8 19:55:26 there 19:55:29 Ok anyone here willing to write me a program that uses all of the language's functions and outputs something to test whether the functions worked as intended? 19:55:38 oklopol, generic currency? 19:55:46 CO2Games, depends on what language it is? 19:55:46 generic currency indeed 19:55:52 apparently irssi does _some_ autodetection 19:55:57 it's a kind of assembly language 19:56:01 oerjan, well send in utf8 still 19:56:05 CO2Games, no thanks 19:56:12 http://co2games.com/wiki/index.php?title=N2CPU#Instruction_Set 19:56:15 CO2Games, do it yourself :) 19:56:22 mmm 19:56:24 assemblyyyyyyy 19:56:31 assembly is nice 19:56:34 and fuzzy 19:56:47 the syntax on this one is different 19:56:48 I want purely functional asm 19:56:58 that would be fun 19:57:02 AnMaster: that's what assembly is 19:57:07 CO2Games, no... 19:57:07 well, x86 assembly 19:57:11 what? :P 19:57:17 you got no idea what "pure functional" is? 19:57:22 err 19:57:29 idk? 19:57:37 well don't claim that x86 asm is that then 19:57:39 :P 19:57:43 what is it then 19:57:45 single-assignment registers! :D 19:57:52 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 19:58:02 My assembly language instruction set doesn't have any ram 19:58:06 first class functions, single assignment, 19:58:08 for example 19:58:16 hmm 19:58:20 oklopol, also I admit that idea needs to be worked on 19:58:24 since it could cause issues 19:58:47 well, it might work if you allowed one to bind and unbind them on procedure bound 19:58:54 16 8-bit registers and two jump flags 19:58:58 oklopol, consider that you can compile java to bytecode, and that bytecode you could decompile to some asm... So... hm 19:59:04 and have dataflow variables, so you could return values from functions 19:59:09 if one can make OO asm 19:59:16 which both .NET and Java have 19:59:20 why not some functional one 19:59:30 not very low level asm I agree 19:59:38 And there's an additional 8-bit output register 19:59:45 i want single-assignment registers 19:59:47 oklopol, how would you define "asm" code? I mean formally 19:59:49 ok is this utf8: æ, ø, å? 19:59:49 what makes it asm 19:59:50 that's like the coolest idea ever 19:59:55 the emulator is fully CLI 19:59:57 oklopol, ? 19:59:59 AnMaster: the fact it seems asmy to me 20:00:00 that's all 20:00:16 oklopol, not that it is a very simple translation to the machine's own format? 20:00:21 assembly means each command is a single processor instruction 20:00:26 well, no nesting, and integers the only store 20:00:38 oklopol, because with that definition you could argue LISP *is* asm. Just fire up a LISP machine! 20:00:54 turning leaves are so very pretty 20:00:55 what definition? 20:00:59 psygnisfive: yes 20:01:04 lisp has nesting. 20:01:08 Isn't anything ASM for some machine? :o 20:01:11 turing leaves are pretty too 20:01:14 lisp has data types other than int 20:01:26 oklopol, an asm language is a language that is basically a 1-to-1 mapping to machine code 20:01:29 oklopol: each assembly command has a single instruction 20:01:35 then lisp would qualify on lisp-machines! 20:01:40 CO2Games: what does that mean? 20:01:48 how can a command have an instruction 20:01:52 it's just text names for binary commands 20:02:01 AnMaster: i haven't said that's a definition for being an asm 20:02:05 my definition 20:02:06 aliases, the assembler just takes that and de-aliases them 20:02:07 i mean 20:02:12 oklopol, oh well 20:02:24 CO2Games: my definition is more general than *that* 20:02:29 ouch 20:02:30 well 20:02:46 really quite different, i'm going by what the language feels like, not what it's used for 20:02:47 AnMaster: ok i think i found the right option 20:02:47 you need to learn about what an assembly language is 20:02:52 which i always do 20:02:56 i don't give a shit about usage 20:02:59 these leaves smell like lea 20:03:00 f 20:03:01 :o 20:03:01 oerjan, well I can't check since my client auto detect on lines 20:03:06 oerjan, ask psygnisfive 20:03:11 CO2Games: i've programmed ten times more asm than you :P 20:03:24 (for some values of true.) 20:03:25 But have you made an assembly instruction set 20:03:28 many 20:03:44 have you intended to make your own hardware to run them? 20:03:53 so asm is basically stuff like , and instr should be a TLA if possible? 20:04:03 has anyone ever tried to design a Lisp processor that doesn't use registers and so on but processes sort of exactly like lisp does? 20:04:07 oklopol, like mov, add, sub 20:04:10 CO2Games: no. except once in wireworld, but turned out that'd been done 20:04:11 In assembly each command is a single cpu instruction 20:04:18 fail 20:04:29 I intend to make hardware for my design 20:04:33 I've already made an emulator 20:04:35 So how does a Lisp machine works exactly? 20:04:38 CO2Games: fail? 20:05:00 slereah_: the way im familiar with, lisp machines work similar to non-lisp machines 20:05:03 You haven't intended to make hardware matching your assembly languages, that natively runs the output 20:05:06 oklopol, would you consider it asm if "mov %eax, %edx" was *written as*: "Move register eax to register edx"? or "(move eax edx)" 20:05:08 in that there are registers, and so forth 20:05:13 oklopol, I mean it wouldn't look like asm 20:05:17 and that stuff gets pushed onto a stack, etc. 20:05:26 oklopol, but in effect it would only be a trivial text transformation 20:05:27 CO2Games: indeed i haven't, i fail to see anything interesting in that 20:05:27 I think there was a rough description in the original Lisp article 20:05:32 EWW AT&T syntax, yucky 20:05:34 oklopol, since nesting wouldn't work 20:05:43 CO2Games, better than intel syntax at least 20:05:50 i just wonder if there are any machines that actually implement lisp directly, not through registers and so on 20:05:51 i mean 20:05:52 pfft 20:05:53 no way 20:06:02 register machines are like implementations of Assembly 20:06:05 intel syntax kicks at&t ass 20:06:06 psygnisfive : Does a man qualify as a machine? 20:06:07 CO2Games, I consider all x86 asm ugly 20:06:09 RISC please 20:06:15 the machine IS the instruction set and vice versa, to an extent 20:06:16 CISC is just horrible to code in 20:06:19 x86 is the ugliest thing mankind has ever devised. 20:06:24 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 20:06:26 x86 is easy 20:06:29 it should be destroyed and fed to pigs 20:06:32 oklopol, lets design a CPU 20:06:32 oklopol, indeed 20:06:34 :D 20:06:37 oklopol, x86_64 is even worse 20:06:39 a sexy CPY 20:06:39 yes, it's easy, but it's the ugliest thing mankind has ever devised. 20:06:42 I suggest PPC or SPARC 20:06:42 CPU* 20:06:44 it should be killed and fed to pigs 20:06:48 x86 supports nested loops 20:06:50 both seem sane compared to x86 20:06:52 for all topic in topics: psygnisfive.say('oklopol: lets design ' + topic) 20:06:52 really 20:06:55 CO2Games: does it? 20:06:57 yes 20:07:03 what do you mean 20:07:10 a: 20:07:13 ;something 20:07:15 b: 20:07:17 ;something 20:07:19 8| 20:07:21 loop b 20:07:21 god you're a noob 20:07:23 ;something 20:07:24 CO2Games: ... 20:07:25 loop a 20:07:26 oklopol, I agree 20:07:29 lol CO2Games 20:07:30 optbot, say something 20:07:30 Slereah_: take some, bitch 20:07:35 D: 20:07:39 I AM OUTRAGED 20:07:40 infact, lets design an instruction set that can be compiled down to some turing machine cpu relatively trivially 20:07:50 noob trigger activated, time to go read my book 20:08:02 If you guys are using assembler-specific loop structures, you're doing it wrong 20:08:06 anyway 20:08:10 and also the turing machine. :P 20:08:15 I want purely functional ASM! 20:08:17 really 20:08:23 I would like to see what it looked like 20:08:24 Lisp ASM? 20:08:32 i agree anmaster. it would be interesting. 20:08:34 single assignment 20:08:35 let us begin work! 20:08:44 AnMaster: what do you mean purely functional 20:08:46 CO2Games: what do you mean? not that i'm not already cone 20:08:47 *gone 20:08:52 psygnisfive: um 20:08:52 and higher order functions 20:08:54 psygnisfive: lisp machine 20:08:54 :| 20:08:58 oklopol is a cone 20:09:06 yes, yes he is 20:09:06 lisp machines are not functional ASM CPUs tho, ehird 20:09:07 ehird, yes... but by oklopol's definition of asm 20:09:09 havent you been listening? 20:09:15 yes 20:09:16 yes i have 20:09:18 well 20:09:19 ehird, I suggested it above 20:09:20 and 20:09:20 they sort of are 20:09:25 no 20:09:26 they are 20:09:27 oklopol disagreed 20:09:32 but they're really just register machines with built in lisp interpreters 20:09:36 no 20:09:37 no they 20:09:38 're not 20:09:41 yes 20:09:42 they 20:09:42 are 20:09:42 AnMaster: it's just what i meant by asm in that context. 20:09:45 fi you knew anything about them you wouldn't say that 20:09:50 actually 20:09:53 since ive seen their designs 20:09:57 AnMaster: seriously, what do you mean purely functional 20:09:58 i think i can say that fairly confidently 20:10:12 ehird, and they were not single assignment. I want single assignment registers! 20:10:13 atleast one of them, anyway. and from what i know most others are similar. 20:10:16 CO2Games: purely functional means blocks give the same output for the same input 20:10:18 single assignment memory 20:10:31 CO2Games, the normal definition that everyone else use 20:10:36 you could google 20:10:39 single assignment is for putzes. 20:10:49 psygnisfive, huh? 20:11:01 single assignment rocks 20:11:08 single assignment isnt really a huge benefit 20:11:13 i'm all about dataflow variables atm 20:11:14 and I want higher order opcodes! 20:11:14 :D 20:11:21 err 20:11:22 higher order opcodes huh 20:11:24 first-class opcodes 20:11:25 rather 20:11:26 :) 20:11:27 with them, single assignment simply become damn elegant 20:11:34 *becomes 20:11:39 opcodes that take opcodes as arguments and return opcodes as values? 20:11:43 :D 20:11:47 holy shit that's pretty 20:12:03 first-class opcodes, single assignment registers. higher order... err stuff 20:12:13 not sure you can have higher order *functions* in asm 20:12:16 now we're really just talking about building hardware that runs Lisp/Haskell 20:12:25 AnMaster: well you can't easily have closures 20:12:40 oklopol, hm call/cc need to be supported too 20:12:45 or something like ti 20:12:46 it* 20:12:47 but you can have higher-order functions in anything that allows pointers really 20:12:48 maybe 20:12:49 anyway 20:12:55 first class opcodes 20:12:55 i mean unrestricted pointers 20:12:58 that would rock 20:13:06 well that's not exactly true, but you know what i mean. 20:13:12 well that may not be true either. 20:13:18 i don't know anything 20:13:20 oh we need gc too 20:13:23 at asm level 20:13:28 AnMaster: do you know what call/cc is? 20:13:40 if so, damn, dude, stop becoming functional 20:13:44 it's scary. 20:13:51 oklopol, I know it, and I understand it *partly*, but it makes my head spin 20:14:09 well it needs some time to sink in before you see how to actually use it 20:14:17 oklopol, yes. like lisp macros 20:14:20 they are as bad 20:14:23 kind of 20:14:47 i don't think they are that hard to see the use of 20:14:55 I mean scheme without macros and call/cc is easy to understand really... Add either of those and it gets confusing 20:15:16 those are the tricky parts i guess 20:15:27 but hey, people, i'm really gonna go 20:15:34 well, unless CO2Games wants to answer 20:15:37 oklopol, anyway I suspect we need garbage collector for the asm or something 20:15:39 what? 20:15:47 answer what 20:15:52 22:07:51 CO2Games: If you guys are using assembler-specific loop structures, you're doing it wrong 20:15:55 what do you mean 20:16:07 masm has it's own loop structure 20:16:21 like, one that understands nested blocks 20:16:21 you are thinking way too low level 20:16:22 ? 20:16:25 if you use it, or its if structures, you're doing it wrong 20:16:29 most of us in here thinks high level 20:16:35 Apparently 20:16:37 * AnMaster pokes ehird 20:16:41 what 20:16:50 most of us in here thinks high level 20:16:53 ehird, I claimed someone else was thinking too low-level 20:16:53 excluding AnMaster ... 20:16:53 CO2Games: do you mean loopthisblock { } 20:16:55 just above 20:16:59 ehird, didn't you see it? 20:17:01 :-) 20:17:11 actually 20:17:14 CO2Games was thinking too high level. 20:17:17 I'm pretty sure it used something like .IF EAX or something 20:17:28 ehird, how do you mean? 20:17:34 CO2Games: what the fuck does a loop structure mean 20:17:35 ehird, oh it wrapped around? 20:17:41 a branch instruction? 20:17:48 no 20:17:48 or that you can wrap code in a block 20:17:49 oklopol, f() -> f(). 20:17:50 maybe 20:17:56 ;) 20:18:04 and actually 20:18:08 then functional asm exists 20:18:10 kind of 20:18:14 I mean masm and some others have support for preprocessing a while loop on a register 20:18:19 oklopol, want to hear the details? 20:18:25 CO2Games: and that's fail to use because...? 20:18:30 CO2Games: gcc-bf has an asm command for a while loop on a register 20:18:36 because that's not low-level enough 20:18:58 oklopol, erlang compiles the code to byte code, functional byte code... However you can make it dump that as erlang asm 20:18:59 http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/recursive/node4.html 20:19:00 for debugging 20:19:01 CO2Games: it's simpler to code with, and gives the same results 20:19:04 Would this be useful? 20:19:04 oklopol, it is scarry 20:19:09 and it looks like nothing else 20:19:25 CO2Games: you mean you shouldn't do it because you shouldn't take the easy way out? 20:19:26 Using low level languages like asm is used for more control over what the program is doing 20:19:46 using assembler-specific things just ruins the fun 20:20:05 CO2Games: well anyway, no, i've never used a loop structure like that, no fun progging in an esolang if you use a wimpmode 20:20:07 {function, module_info, 1, 36}. 20:20:07 {label,35}. 20:20:07 {func_info,{atom,intercal},{atom,module_info},1}. 20:20:07 {label,36}. 20:20:07 {move,{x,0},{x,1}}. 20:20:08 {move,{atom,intercal},{x,0}}. 20:20:10 {call_ext_only,2,{extfunc,erlang,get_module_info,2}}. 20:20:12 oklopol, like that ^ 20:20:22 that was an auto generated function 20:20:29 that contains module meta data 20:20:29 CO2Games: yeah, okay, if you mean it ruins the fun, then i agree 100% 20:20:44 it's like an esoteric language but they pay people to use it 20:20:49 don't spoil it 20:20:51 oklopol, what do you think? 20:20:59 it's like an esoteric language but they pay people to use it 20:21:01 what language? 20:21:05 oklopol, call_only is tail recursion 20:21:05 asm 20:21:07 x86 assembly 20:21:21 AnMaster: also called a "jump" :P 20:21:26 it's the big hit in the drivers and hardware control industry 20:21:28 oklopol, yep 20:21:44 your sata drivers are probably written in raw assembly 20:21:45 oklopol, actually it was a generic tail call 20:21:50 assuming you have any install 20:21:52 ed 20:22:01 CO2Games, hardly 20:22:08 they are coded in C mostly 20:22:11 wow 20:22:13 they fail bad 20:22:16 no 20:22:20 * oklopol goes -> 20:22:29 that's like writing a kernel in C, you should've used asm 20:22:31 CO2Games, they are coded in C mostly everywhere 20:22:36 and kernels are coded in C 20:22:39 then they fail 20:22:40 with tiny bits of asm 20:22:48 see, that's their problem 20:22:54 oh god.. you are a troll really? 20:22:58 nobody wants to work with low level 20:23:10 well, i agree with CO2Games, and i'm not a troll 20:23:19 oklopol, about what? 20:23:21 CO2Games: there are lower levels than asm 20:23:31 even asm is still interpreted by a physical object 20:23:35 yes 20:23:37 oklopol, http://rafb.net/p/k0Bx1911.html <-- this may interest you 20:23:38 my University project is about compilation into hardware 20:23:41 psygnisfive, you too ^ 20:23:42 I'm talking software 20:23:46 and ais523 ^ 20:23:49 where the only interpretation, if any, is done by the laws of physics 20:23:55 AnMaster: that even things that absolutely need to be correct should be coded in a language that makes enforcing correctness as hard as possible 20:24:02 but, i guess i'm a bit of a troll by nature 20:24:13 it makes the hardware/software line blurry if you're compiling directly into hardware from a C-like language... 20:24:15 eww yucky get it away 20:24:16 oklopol, haha 20:24:32 ais523: are you making a hdl? :O 20:24:46 oklopol: no 20:24:47 better 20:24:54 ..better? 8| 20:24:56 I'm compiling into an hdl from a C-like language 20:24:56 CO2Games, compiling into hardware is fun :) 20:24:57 I'm thinking of making my own computer system thingy 20:25:00 which is imperative but lazy 20:25:08 ais523: oh my god 20:25:09 and expensive if it's one of those hardcore chips 20:25:21 ais523: verilog is pretty much c... 20:25:27 oklopol: don't believe it 20:25:32 i've seen itt 20:25:33 *it 20:25:35 it looks like C but the paradigm is totally different 20:25:38 hmm 20:25:40 true. 20:25:41 in C the commands generally have some sort of order... 20:25:45 heh 20:25:49 anyone can make a programming language look like C 20:25:52 yeah okay, it's totally different 20:25:53 that doesn't mean it is C 20:26:02 See: Jugs 20:26:07 looks like c 20:26:10 it isn't c 20:26:23 ais523, a functional language should work well for that, since you could potentially easily figure out what you can evaluate in parallel 20:26:29 better than imperative 20:26:49 AnMaster: we're compiling via a functional language 20:26:50 ais523: well that sounds incredibly cool, i'd love to help, even, were i of any use. 20:26:51 except it isn't 20:27:02 ais523, so something with single assignment, no side effects should be best 20:27:02 it's sort of a limited functional language 20:27:07 where you aren't allowed to do recursion 20:27:13 and no, single assignment doesn't help 20:27:15 just read a book about processor design, and i kinda wanna play with that 20:27:27 ais523, is it tc without recursion? 20:27:32 my machine's emulator is 1781 lines long before preprocessing 20:27:40 AnMaster: no, no real piece of hardware can be TC 20:27:51 the language therefore has to deliberately be sub-TC, if you think about it 20:27:53 ais523: asmtc 20:27:58 ais523, true but you could run loops on them 20:28:11 asmtcness is a concept designed for this exact purpose 20:28:11 it allows tail-recursion in the intermediate lang 20:28:18 which is compiled from loops in the source lang 20:28:25 ais523: the compiling step could still be TC 20:28:31 10101 instructions 20:28:32 FUCK 20:28:32 ais523, bounded storage yes. Preventing loops: not needed 20:28:33 -> 20:28:39 as far as I can see 20:28:42 AnMaster: loops are allowed, so are nested loops 20:28:47 but non-tail recursion isn't 20:28:52 ais523, ah 20:28:55 you can convert all imperative-style loops into tail recursin 20:28:57 *recurison 20:29:01 *recursion 20:29:11 ais523, yes if nothing else you can do it as continuation passing 20:29:14 iirc 20:29:22 probably there are better ways 20:29:25 10101 instructions in binary that is 20:29:28 AnMaster: continuation passing in hardware? 20:29:31 are you serious? 20:29:35 ais523, no.... 20:29:36 remember you don't have pointers... 20:29:41 ais523, oh ok 20:29:46 ais523, so how then? 20:29:55 so how what, loops? 20:30:03 no it's while, not what 20:30:05 you just get a function to call itself at the end 20:30:09 to loop, if the loop hasn't ended 20:30:13 pretty trivial really 20:30:32 ais523, a language can be tc without recursion but with while-style loops. Just look at for example brainfuck 20:30:42 yes, I know 20:30:47 but there's a limited amount of memory 20:30:48 So anyways guess what 20:30:55 the TC problems aren't due to the control structures 20:31:07 My machine is not turing complete on its own 20:31:10 ais523, recursion without imperative-style loops is tc. 20:31:12 recursion does create an infinite amount of memory, if you have either local variables or arguments 20:31:20 ais523, so is just tail-recursion 20:31:20 unless you force the user to write down a tape of bits 20:31:21 but 20:31:27 What about that SMITH language? :o 20:31:32 how without continuations 20:31:33 ? 20:31:37 that is my question 20:31:38 That just rewrites itself at the end 20:31:43 AnMaster: how what? 20:31:50 I don't get what you're getting at...# 20:31:56 s/#// 20:31:59 ais523, how do you transform any loop into a tail recursive call 20:32:15 ais523, if you can't use continuations 20:32:31 a; while(c) b; d; becomes a; f(); d; sub f() {b; if(c) f();} 20:32:38 pretty simple really... 20:33:38 ais523, hm since body recursion got the same "tc-ness" as that style of loops... Is it that easy to transform any recursion into tail recursion? 20:34:09 no, it fails if you have to maintain state and retrieve it later 20:34:22 ais523, for example the traditional non-tail (body for short in this context) recursive fibonacci. 20:34:23 Ok I've come to a conclusion 20:34:24 or if you need to know the recursion height 20:34:32 The machine cannot store data. 20:34:38 ais523, you can transform it to normal loops though 20:34:39 well, enough data 20:34:43 here's some C code: 20:34:44 or bf wouldn't be tc 20:34:47 ais523, ^ 20:34:47 there's only 16 registers 20:34:58 AnMaster: yes, you have to maintain a stack by hand 20:35:02 It'd need a tape device 20:35:02 to do that transformation 20:35:04 in some cases 20:35:17 ais523, right. (Though there are ways around for fib iirc) 20:35:35 ais523, but stack needs pointer doesn't it? And you didn't have pointers you said 20:36:08 void f(void) {if(getchar()!='a') {if(getchar()=='!') return; abort();} f(); if(getchar()!='b') abort();} 20:36:16 AnMaster: yes, that's why my program isn't TC 20:36:24 although it has loops, there are some things you can't compile into it 20:36:35 due to the lack of having infinite storage 20:36:47 look at my one-liner C program above, and assume you've included the header files and call f from main 20:36:48 ais523, a fib for 32-bit integers :) 20:36:53 You can use a register to be a stack pointer 20:37:18 yes there are various other ways to make fib tail recursive 20:37:18 It's nit-picking time! ais523's tail-recursion example implements "a; do { b; } while(c); d;" and not "a; while(c) b; d;" as advertised. 20:37:19 I know that 20:37:29 fizzie: whoops, I need an extra if 20:37:40 it doesn't really change the nature of it, though 20:37:59 Sure, that's why the call it picking nits. (What's the etymology of that anyway?) 20:42:48 -!- LinuS has joined. 20:43:17 -!- Mony has quit (Connection timed out). 20:43:32 Oct 3 13:30:21 tux [3293016.218037] readonly.exe[6652]: segfault at 4005bc ip 4004c1 sp 7fffe6b1bf80 error 7 in readonly.exe[400000+1000] 20:43:32 Oct 3 20:00:06 tux [ 4886.698062] rarian-sk-get-c[9053]: segfault at 0 ip 35fae73af0 sp 7fff6d5db9b8 error 4 in libc-2.6.1.so[35fae00000+136000] 20:43:33 wtf 20:43:42 * AnMaster searchs disk 20:43:44 readonly.exe? 20:43:49 ais523, what I'm wondering too 20:43:52 that sounds very like a Windows program name... 20:43:53 rootkit? 20:43:58 ais523, yes and I don't have wine 20:44:14 it seems unlikely that your computer would get rooted... 20:44:18 ais523, indeed 20:45:53 AnMaster: http://web.archive.org/web/20030521231823/http://www.essenz.com/support/comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc/Oct/29/207663.html 20:46:03 fizzie: nits are the eggs of lice iirc 20:46:11 ais523, ah yes I upgraded ksh 20:46:17 ais523, the other one then 20:46:18 hm 20:46:19 seems it only happens on FreeBSD when compiling ksh 20:46:23 ais523, Gentoo 20:46:25 not freebsd 20:46:28 ok 20:46:31 maybe the same problem though 20:46:35 I'd guess it's a confused Makefile 20:46:41 which tries to do Windows stuff by mistake 20:46:50 CO2Games: a limited amount of registers can still be TC if they are unbounded, see Minsky Machine on the wiki 20:47:25 ais523, found anything on the other process? 20:47:32 haven't searched yet 20:47:38 http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=234489 20:47:38 hm 20:47:45 the registers are 8-bit 20:47:49 not infinite 20:47:49 app-text/rarian 20:47:52 seems I got it installed 20:47:55 and there are only 16 of them 20:47:55 some dep 20:48:01 not infinite 20:48:14 ais523, I think segfault log messages should record path info too 20:48:16 just IMO 20:48:17 A tape device or memory device would have to be attached 20:48:51 CO2Games: yeah then you need a tape device, a RAM is not technically enough since the pointer sizes would be bounded too 20:49:03 ais523, if it had said something like /var/tmp/portage/app-shells/ksh-1.2.3/work/ksh-1.2.3/readonly.exe then I wouldn't have got scared like that 20:49:14 or whatever the ksh version is 20:49:53 oerjan: you could use a RAM if you had bignum pointers 20:50:06 ais523: he had 8-bit registers 20:50:34 16 registers? 20:50:35 eww 20:50:39 that few 20:50:48 a real arch should have at least 64 GPR 20:50:57 of reasonable size 20:51:01 like 32-bit or 64-bit 20:51:04 um 20:51:05 depending on platform 20:51:07 64 registers? 20:51:09 fuck. that. shit. 20:51:13 bff-gc has 64 general-purpose 8 bit registers 20:51:15 ehird, yes iirc PPC got that 20:51:17 *bf-gcc 20:51:22 which seems to be about the right number 20:51:24 think RISC 20:51:26 gcc generally ends up using 50 or so 20:51:27 not CISC 20:51:31 and you get more registers 20:51:32 :) 20:51:34 AnMaster: 16 registers is perfect 20:51:39 ehird, for a CISC 20:51:42 not for a RISC 20:51:45 no 20:51:47 for a risc 20:52:03 ehird, you had this discussion with RodgerTheGreat (iirc?) before 20:52:05 I agree with him 20:52:08 or whoever it was 20:52:13 and refer you to that convo 20:52:15 no, i didn't 20:52:18 was a few weeks/months ago 20:52:27 also, rodgerthegreat mostly agreed with me on the topic of asm 20:52:41 ehird, I think it was him that wanted to have more registers 20:52:46 as he rightly critiqued your cpu architechture which had an instruction to switch 32/64 bits but not the actual vitals. 20:53:21 ehird, it wasn't complete, it was a draft 20:53:45 and I was thankful for that he pointed out the issue 20:53:51 yes, but i think it's kind of fitting that it was very portable to various large-scale applications, it just didn't have anything else they'd need... 20:54:03 like.. 20:54:06 ehird, however. You disliked register count 20:54:09 program execution 20:54:18 and there rodger the great agreed with me 20:54:42 ehird, if you meant cpu rings, context switching and such then it wasn't intended 20:55:35 AnMaster: it seems quite a few other people are getting those rarian-sk-get-c errors, Googling doesn't show why though 20:57:55 ais523, yes 20:57:58 and wtf is rarian 20:57:59 really 20:58:01 cosmic rays, clearly 20:58:30 ais523, hit number 2 at google for "rarian-sk-get-c" (http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=234489) seems relevant I guess 20:58:33 librarian-dev - Rarian is a documentation meta-data library ( 20:58:46 ais523, yes and that doesn't say anything really 20:58:55 no 20:59:04 but at least it gives some clue as to why it was on your system 20:59:05 ais523, I mean it could be doxygen metadata, but I doubt that 20:59:15 I can certainly imagine something like that running during the compile of something 20:59:20 that used it for documentation 20:59:35 # equery depends app-text/rarian 20:59:35 [ Searching for packages depending on app-text/rarian... ] 20:59:35 app-text/scrollkeeper-9999-r1 (app-text/rarian) 20:59:44 huh? 20:59:49 9999? 20:59:49 what depends on scrollkeeper? 20:59:54 quite a lot AFAIR 20:59:59 [I] app-text/scrollkeeper 21:00:01 Description: Dummy scrollkeeper for testing rarian 21:00:06 * AnMaster growls 21:00:46 * oerjan howls 21:00:56 ais523, ah about all gnome packages that I happen to have installed because some bloody app I want depends on them instead of using something lightweight and portable such a wxwidgets 21:01:02 AnMaster: it seems that almost all of gnome depends on rarian 21:01:13 ais523, yes 5 packages 21:01:20 well this is a Gnome system 21:01:23 so it's a lot more packages for me 21:01:28 ais523, however I haven't updated rarian recently afaik 21:01:28 it's both Gnome and KDE, actually 21:01:34 but I normally boot into Gnome 21:02:18 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 21:02:25 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:14:06 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:18:01 -!- atrapado_ has joined. 21:18:33 ais523, well here startx to KDE loading dialog done takes about 10 seconds 21:18:37 so no big issue 21:18:38 to use KDE 21:18:48 ais523, also I hardly ever reboot 21:18:57 today I did for reasons out of my control 21:19:05 but I had over a month of uptime before that 21:19:08 -!- atrapado has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:19:12 -!- atrapado_ has changed nick to atrapado. 21:20:42 AnMaster: ais523 is not online 21:23:13 * [ais523] is away (Gone away for now.) 21:23:15 correct 21:23:21 <-psyBNC> Fri Oct 3 20:13:37 :User ais523 quitted (from 147.188.254.96) 21:23:22 ehird, I assume he have away log :) 21:23:23 Even more correct. 21:23:32 has* 21:23:34 AnMaster: Since his client isn't connected to the server, no. 21:23:44 ehird, err? the bnc should have an away log 21:23:47 or disconnect-log 21:23:48 Yes. 21:23:49 or whatever 21:23:49 Yes it does. 21:23:50 But he doesn't. 21:23:59 ehird, you mean he doesn't use it? 21:24:07 It's the server's, not his personally. 21:24:17 ehird, oh same bnc for both of you? 21:24:23 Yes. 21:24:25 I find that really confusing 21:24:30 Why? 21:24:44 ehird, also security issues. And shared away log 21:24:45 and such 21:24:47 Running two instances of it would just be wasteful. 21:24:48 should be per-user 21:24:50 not per-server 21:24:54 AnMaster: The latter: it is. 21:24:57 But it is on the server. 21:25:01 Not his machine. 21:25:12 Anyway, as for security issues, 21:25:14 ehird, of course I expect him to read it when he get back 21:25:16 we both have root on the server. 21:25:17 like an away log 21:25:25 AnMaster: I can nitpick if I want, can't I? 21:25:36 ehird, well I can't stop you :P 21:25:41 Anyway, security issues: since we're both sudoers, we could impersonate eacho ther even with seperate instances 21:26:14 Holy fuck. 21:26:18 pikhq: What. 21:26:29 When I was doing an emerge --sync, I think I saw some KDE 4.1 packages go by. 21:26:38 Dun dun DUNN 21:27:00 I thought KDE 4 wasn't in official Portage since KDE 4 ebuilds used EAPI 2, which got approved... 2 days ago. 21:27:22 Jeez, Gentoo. 21:27:26 You're either 5 years out of date... 21:27:31 or 2 seconds bleeding edge. 21:27:50 I'm using an overlay, so I'm 2 seconds bleeding edge. Whee. 21:28:18 * ehird looks at pikhq's outline. 21:28:21 Yes, that is quite some blood. 21:28:28 I think you wanna get that checked out 21:29:01 that's not blood, it's just ketchup 21:29:29 * ehird bites pikhq's arm off. 21:29:29 Now it 21:29:32 's blood. 21:29:45 it's just a flesh wound. 21:33:41 Oooh. baselayout-2 is about to hit Gentoo stable, too. 21:41:20 cc 21:45:07 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:54:25 -!- moozilla has joined. 22:18:59 -!- ihope has joined. 22:19:06 Are Unlambda programs worth turning into music? 22:19:31 If not, I'll have to use Thue stuff instead. 22:19:34 Yes. Yes. 22:19:36 To both. 22:19:37 bop boppeti bop boop beep 22:19:39 ihope: c-b-l 22:37:47 -!- LinuS has quit (Connection timed out). 22:58:13 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 23:01:52 I thought KDE 4 wasn't in official Portage since KDE 4 ebuilds used EAPI 2, which got approved... 2 days ago. 23:01:53 Jeez, Gentoo. 23:01:53 You're either 5 years out of date... 23:01:53 or 2 seconds bleeding edge. 23:01:54 wrong 23:02:02 the ones in the tree were converted 23:02:05 to not use EAPI 2 23:02:13 at least they were before 23:02:13 Ha. How typical. 23:02:19 Gentoo patches stuff and fails to give a shit about the maintainers. 23:02:33 Things break, people complain upstream, developers tell them to go away because Gentoo just fucks with their stuff and doesn't tell them. 23:02:35 Everyone loses. 23:02:49 ehird, err how did it break? 23:03:02 AnMaster: I did not say this specific case. 23:03:23 ehird, your comment about "typical" indicated that you considered the current case representative for what you said 23:03:27 that is the common usage of it 23:03:45 AnMaster: Can you guarantee that it won't break? 23:03:46 No. 23:03:58 That interpretation could be correct. 23:04:00 But that's not the point. 23:04:23 EAPI-2 is an extension to the package format, it was used in the development repo for KDE for a while. Now EAPI-2 have become standard. 23:05:18 AnMaster: Can you guarantee that it won't break? <-- no, doing that for anything non-trivial would solve the halting problem I think 23:05:35 ehird, however iirc the EAPI-2 change is minor 23:05:37 Nothing is BROKEN. 23:05:40 so "probably won't" 23:05:45 The computer always does what you tell it to. 23:05:52 ehird, indeed 23:05:55 Detecting such wouldnt' be halting problem, 23:05:58 it'd just be impossible. 23:06:12 ehird, "broken algorithm" however 23:06:41 ehird, "does this algorithm do what it says on the box"? 23:06:48 Impossible to detect :-P 23:06:49 that would solve halting problem 23:07:20 "this algorithm returns true if the Riemann hypothesis is true 23:07:29 ehird, just consider something like that ;P 23:08:04 i smell a logical fallacy 23:08:09 or "this algorithm returns true if the function passed to it will halt" 23:08:14 oerjan: Ditto. 23:08:15 may not be halting problem 23:08:23 however impossible indeed 23:08:38 just because it's impossible for _some_ programs doesn't mean it's impossible for _every_ program 23:08:47 oerjan, indeed 23:08:52 you could make a trivial case 23:09:04 oerjan, I was talking about the general case however 23:09:07 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 23:09:34 if the moon is on the sky then one plus one equals two 23:11:04 This just in: Famous Oklopolian mathematician proves that basic arithmetic derives from celestial bodies. 23:11:12 * ihope yawns disavowingly 23:11:40 oklopolian 23:11:41 :D 23:11:53 what about this.... hm 23:12:06 i think that should be oklopolitan 23:12:12 or perhaps oklopolar 23:12:27 oklopolitan would probably be the most logical one 23:12:32 no doesn't work 23:12:39 oklopolous 23:12:39 ok I admit my wording was bad 23:12:45 anyway it's moot as Oklopolis sunk in the ocean thousands of years ago 23:13:01 ehird, "does this algorithm do what it says on the box"? Impossible to detect :-P <-- why? If it isn't the halting problem, then what is it? 23:13:34 AnMaster: Uh, that's called "reading your mind". 23:14:03 ehird, hm? Proving if a certain algorithm does what it says is mind reading? 23:14:08 Yes. 23:14:09 huh 23:14:12 How do you codify what it says? 23:14:13 :-P 23:14:22 ehird, using some format syntax 23:14:28 ehird: says on the box == satisfies a declarative specification, i assume 23:14:29 AnMaster: ... which can have bugs in it. 23:14:33 oklopol, yes 23:14:41 So now you have to verify the specification via another specification. 23:14:43 _every_ algorithm does exactly what it says. remarkable, that. 23:14:44 Ooh, I love infinite regress. 23:14:47 oerjan++ 23:14:53 oklopol, except my wording was less format ;P 23:14:57 Oklopolitan, yes. 23:16:14 oerjan, hm I suspect you could construct something like: "this algorithm: Don't run this algorithm", though that may just be a plain boring paradox 23:16:18 ehird: well yes, that's true, you cannot achieve what the original intention was. 23:16:23 i mean 23:16:41 cannot check whether the algorithm does what the creator wanted it to 23:17:19 "to run this algorithm: do not run this algorithm" isn't exactly a set of well-defined computational steps 23:17:28 well 23:17:44 oklopol, well that is true 23:17:48 you can either think it means do not run this algorithm as in "do not recurse" == nop 23:17:51 but 23:18:02 "Don't do ..." is not much of an algorithm. 23:18:08 oklopol, "s/do not/do never have and never will/" 23:18:09 ;P 23:18:21 and true 23:18:21 you can also think in a logical sense, that it means "do not do such a sequence of operations that the result is the same as after running this algorithm" 23:18:23 Well, I guess it's a nondeterministic algorithm. 23:18:24 which i'm sure you meant 23:18:34 This statement is not a statement. 23:18:42 The possible results of that algorithm are precisely those results that the algorithm cannot produce. 23:18:45 the latter is a declarative specification, a constraint, it's not an "algorithm" in the sense normally used 23:19:07 read what i said, it will answer all. 23:19:24 oklopol, ah hm. Yes that was what I meant 23:20:20 night all 23:20:28 night. 23:20:36 so, anyone wanna share some food with me? 23:21:35 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:22:05 hm, food 23:22:16 oklopol: sure. 23:22:36 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:23:13 ehird: send via mail asp 23:23:17 I'll put a bit of sugar in an envelope and mail it to you. 23:23:23 oklopol: i didn't agree to supply the food! 23:23:24 that would be nice 23:23:57 ehird: touche 23:24:03 You'll have to send me a SASE, though. 23:24:24 I'll give you the address. 23:25:06 what's a SASE 23:25:44 Self-addressed stamped envelope. 23:26:04 ah 23:26:22 are you in high-school? 23:26:39 Yep. 23:26:49 Maybe you'll have to use one of those fancy international reply coupon things. 23:27:13 ihope: could you send me a SASSASE 23:27:21 like, so i can send you the sase 23:28:22 I won't send you anything unless you first send me a SASE to send it in. 23:28:30 I'm cheap. 23:31:44 Either that, or I can't afford the 42 cents for a stamp. 23:32:01 42 cents? 23:32:06 That's like... 0 euros 23:35:15 about 30 euro cents 23:35:59 or 2.5 NOK 23:36:15 NOK NOK 23:36:17 which i'm sure is far less than it would cost from norway... 23:40:11 7 NOK for standard priority letter within norway 23:42:26 -!- CO2Games has quit ("And I invented doors, no joke!"). 23:42:49 11 NOK to outside europe. about 1.84 USD. 23:46:33 * oerjan notes that freaking out ihope with norwegian price levels doesn't seem to be working 23:46:48 either that, or he's in shock :D 23:49:02 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and i dont know what "other dos emulators" is. 23:55:42 psygnisfive, there? 23:56:00 psygnisfive, was the fedora/bowler hat grammar your idea? Or someone else? 23:56:16 whoever it was: did the discussion get anywhere? 2008-10-04: 00:33:52 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:34:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("I'll take that as a 'No'"). 00:39:11 hey anmaster 00:39:33 what grammar? 00:45:45 psygnisfive, about "fedora or bowler hat" 00:45:48 or whatever it was 00:46:04 psygnisfive, wasn't it you? 00:48:51 -!- olsner has joined. 00:52:00 -!- AnMaster has quit ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"). 00:57:42 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 01:53:13 -!- Enki-][ has joined. 01:53:50 -!- Enki-][ has left (?). 02:32:08 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:26:54 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:26:54 -!- dbc has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:27:03 -!- dbc has joined. 03:27:03 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 03:51:28 -!- CO2Games has joined. 03:58:35 anmaster: 03:58:39 yes, we were talking about hats 03:58:42 and disjunction 03:58:51 but what about it 04:04:56 Hmm I should make a brainfuck compiler 04:08:38 -!- calamari has joined. 04:17:27 -!- Enki-][ has joined. 04:23:31 Everyone should make a brainfuck compiler. 04:24:24 oh hey 04:24:38 if anyone has a bot or can grab one 04:24:49 #sumisu is full of bots chatting to one another 04:25:15 i figure we should get some non-markov-chain bots (elizas or alices maybe) to try to put some sense into the mix 04:29:38 markov chain? 04:32:28 mm 04:32:33 lots of them 04:33:25 "Having the Markov property means that, given the present state, future states are independent of the past states. In other words, the description of the present state fully captures all the information that could influence the future evolution of the process. Future states will be reached through a probabilistic process instead of a deterministic one." 04:33:29 thank you Wikipedia 04:49:31 I had a bot, but being lazy I used a Winsock component that came with VB6 instead of using Sockets properly, and now I don't have VB6 :( 04:50:05 oof 04:50:16 visual basic... talk about an esolang! 04:51:02 the bot itself was C#, thankfully, which is a slight step up 04:52:44 i see 04:52:50 -!- CO2Games has quit ("And I invented doors, no joke!"). 05:46:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Success). 05:49:02 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Would you like to believe I was ?. 06:11:12 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 06:12:24 For Plof syntax naysayers: Plof's 'if' function is now called like so: if (condition) (code) else (code) (presumably with some newlines in there). The only way you could have complaints about this syntax is if you're hyper-insistent on using curly-braces. If you are, go away :P 06:19:10 what was it like before? 06:20:55 if((condition), (code), else, (code)); 06:21:05 In fact, it's still like that, but I've swizzled the function-call syntax. 06:46:16 lol, still talkign about plof? 06:47:12 Now that I'm /officially/ working on PL it just makes me want to work on Plof that much more :P 06:47:30 what's PL? 06:47:35 Programming Languages 06:51:23 PL/1 ? 06:52:24 Yes. PL/I is an extremely popular, modern programming language :P 06:53:55 yep.. I use it every day :) 06:58:11 nice http://pl1gcc.sourceforge.net/ 07:00:43 "There is still no code generation taking place, so don't run out and uninstall your production PL/I compiler just yet :-)" 07:03:20 Wikipedia claims that PL/I is still actively used today. 07:05:56 -!- Enki-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:11:11 You're officially working on programming languages? 07:11:14 How bizarrely appropriate. 07:11:26 s/bizarrely// 07:11:28 GregorR: that's because it is 07:12:38 we still use it to write mainframe software 07:17:05 Wow. 07:17:11 OJ Simpson found guilty. 07:18:00 anmaster! 07:20:23 pikhq: Yuh, I'm a grad student now. 07:20:31 Ah, yes. 07:20:40 Didn't realise that was exactly what you were working on. 07:20:44 Oh 07:20:48 Yeah, I'm in the PL group :) 07:20:54 Though that's because I didn't think about it. 07:21:06 :P 07:21:30 It's the most natural thing for you to be working on... 07:22:21 I could see myself in networking, but I'm hoping I can leverage that in PL instead. 07:23:10 Leverage... 07:23:18 Take off the tie; it's controlling you. 07:23:59 * GregorR-L wears no tie :P 07:24:20 Yesterday I was proctoring an exam wearing a Do Not Put the Baby T-shirt and a fez :P 07:24:32 Yeah! 07:24:39 Dammit; makes me wish I was at Purdue. 07:24:42 :p 07:25:19 * GregorR-L is also forming Purdue Extreme Croquet. 07:25:29 :) 07:26:09 Are the people on the front page of mst.edu pointing in random directions? 07:27:40 Ohyeah: Everybody go buy a Pandora (www.openpandora.org), it would suck if they didn't make their preorder max. 07:27:48 And with that, I go to sleep. 07:27:51 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 07:28:43 Can't say; that picture is randomised. 07:34:59 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:41:47 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:45:20 -!- moozilla has joined. 07:52:58 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:55:27 I want a pandora now :( 07:55:41 but it's £199 compared to £129 for the GP2X Wiz 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:12:25 -!- Mony has joined. 08:31:27 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("So, how much do you love noodles?"). 09:02:12 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 10:40:52 -!- AnMaster has joined. 10:46:40 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:49:03 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Define tonight. 12:40:24 -!- olsner has joined. 12:52:43 -!- slereah has joined. 12:52:44 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:20:20 -!- Hiato has joined. 13:26:21 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:26:28 -!- slereah has joined. 13:39:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:41:26 -!- kt3k has joined. 13:50:56 GregorR: the count on your hats page has not been updated :D 13:54:26 anyone know how to find out the size of the stack from inside gdb? 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16:57:55 I only know a gergor. 16:58:05 Gergovie? 17:00:13 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 17:02:57 -!- oklocod has joined. 17:05:18 an 17:05:23 en 17:05:27 -!- M0ny has changed nick to Mony. 17:07:14 Hulo thar 17:07:31 WOW 17:07:41 that's the greatest greeting i've *ever* gotten 17:14:15 oklocod: aww. 17:14:19 hello oklocod 17:14:25 see, i addressed you by name 17:27:30 oi 17:27:33 anmaster 17:27:40 btw oklocod: hey. 17:27:41 <3 17:27:43 ? 17:27:45 but really anmaster 17:27:50 what were you asking me yesterday 17:28:04 psygnisfive, about who it was that designed that language thing 17:28:09 I don't have the scrollback any more 17:28:14 since I have rebooted 17:28:16 designed WHAT language thing? 17:28:46 psygnisfive, the convo of what "or" meant in English 17:29:03 uh.. i dont get what you mean by who designed it 17:29:08 it was a conversation. lol 17:29:20 psygnisfive, someone suggested making a language anywhere 17:29:24 oh 17:29:26 my question was: did that get anywwhere 17:29:28 anywhere* 17:29:38 i suggested we make a language with disjunction scope indicators 17:29:47 no it didnt get anywhere since we only mentioned it last night :P 17:29:59 psygnisfive, but what plans do you have for it? 17:30:22 probably none but i'd like to experiment with it 17:30:56 like i was saying to oklociod, i think it'd work nicely along side the quantification and predication ideas i had a few months ago 17:31:21 brb gotta go shower and stuff 17:35:38 have a good stuff 17:37:35 id rather have your stuff if you know what i mean 17:37:39 wink wink! 17:37:41 nudge nudge! 17:37:45 say no more 17:37:48 sayyyy no MORE! 17:38:03 ok bye shower <3you oklocock 17:39:23 -!- jix has joined. 17:45:43 -!- Hiato has joined. 17:48:26 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 17:49:03 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | bbl. 17:58:12 back yo 17:58:24 or as the kids these days say 17:58:27 back desu yo 18:47:39 how much overhead does a malloced block have on average on a 32-bit platform 18:47:44 I mean the bookkeeping data 18:47:58 not sure... hmm 18:48:04 there should be a channel for hardware questions like that 18:48:06 shouldn't there 18:48:07 well 18:48:09 its kind of hardware 18:48:12 and kind of software 18:48:16 AnMaster: dependant on the malloc impl 18:48:17 surely 18:48:21 ehird, yes 18:48:25 but what is common 18:48:30 so anmaster, why do you ask? 18:48:32 AnMaster: I don't think there's any standard. 18:48:46 psygnisfive: The least helpful reply to a question is 'why?'. 18:48:52 ehird, surely there is some average? Like "probably 8-16 bytes" or whatever 18:49:02 In #esoteric we can at least assume the people have a reason for doing something. 18:49:10 ehird: it wasnt an answer to that question :P 18:49:10 AnMaster: I don't really think so... 18:49:13 and reason why is because I consider implementing a memory pool system 18:49:24 psygnisfive: why did you ask why then 18:49:43 i was asking why he was asking about the thing earlier 18:49:50 ah. 18:49:50 because valgrinds massif says I got almost half a MB of overhead, and the total memory usage is around 7 MB 18:49:53 that's not very clear :P 18:50:24 AnMaster: 18:50:25 void mem[big_number]; size_t top = 0; void *malloc(size_t foo) { top += foo; return mem + top; } void free(void *foo) { } 18:50:36 wait, no 18:50:45 void mem[big_number]; size_t top = 0; void *malloc(size_t foo) { void *ptr = mem + top; top += foo; return ptr; } void free(void *foo) { } 18:50:45 there 18:50:49 anmaster! :| 18:51:03 ehird, anyway I suspect I could reduce overhead here and yes I need low memory usage since I expect to operate on even larger data sets, so I could end up with overhead like 50 MB just for the bookkeeping data 18:51:06 and that wouldn't be fun at all 18:51:11 AnMaster: what's the project out of curiosity 18:51:49 ehird, kind of closed currently, it will be open source in due time, but not for some time due to various circumstances out of my control 18:51:58 basically NDA 18:51:58 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:52:01 sorry :/ 18:52:11 AnMaster: I'm surprised you'd ever agree to an NDA. :-P 18:52:42 ehird, however it is only temporary until certain other things are completed 18:52:56 anyway since most of the allocations are fixed using a mempool would have less overhead I think 18:53:48 AnMaster: Well I'm finding it hard to believe AnMaster ever agreeing to an NDA or similar so now I'm intrigued :-P. I'll be interested to see what it is when it's opened. 18:54:01 ehird, may be a few months 18:56:27 I think I will have an overhead of sizeof(void*) for each object in the array, since I need to find free objects easily. The only way I can think of is having a single linked list embedded in the array. Freed objects are added to a list, The pool header contains a pointer to the first item in this linked list. 18:56:40 for allocated objects, and for the last in the free list, this pointer is NULL 18:56:52 Crazy. 18:57:07 only issue is I would need to initially add all objects to that free list 18:57:14 which would be O(n) 18:57:24 anmaster! :| 18:57:39 unless I do something like switching allocation strategy when the last block is used 18:57:41 to free list 18:57:42 like 18:57:56 keep a pointer to last allocated block 18:58:10 allocate from that unless we reached the end of the array 18:58:21 if we reached the end, then switch to allocate from the free list 18:58:28 if freelist is empty, allocate a new pool 18:58:37 does this sound like a good idea? 18:58:58 This is the first time I try to do something like this so advice is welcome :) 18:59:08 AnMaster: it sounds good but i have no idea about this stuff 18:59:11 ah 18:59:24 i can't think of a channel that might have people who know this kind of stuff, though 18:59:38 its not C, it's not Linux... i mean, what is it, really 18:59:53 ehird, also I had very bad memory fragmentation with malloc/free, due to allocating differently sized objects and freeing/mallocing is more or less random order 19:00:11 so I will instead have mempools for the two sizes of objects I need 19:00:13 AnMaster: well 19:00:23 and of course the smaller overhead 19:00:25 couldn't you peek at some other memory pool system perhaps 19:00:28 there are a lot of them 19:00:36 ehird, hm like boehm-gc and such? 19:00:38 yours sounds a bit overcomplicated to me but as i said i don't really know this stuff 19:00:48 AnMaster: well, i know one quite often used app uses it 19:00:51 but i do not recall its name 19:01:11 however many try to be general to handle not exactly of size x but of range x-y 19:01:17 or such 19:01:42 AnMaster: i think yours sounds kind of more complicated than theirs but again i don't really know this stuff :-) 19:01:45 its not C, it's not Linux... i mean, what is it, really <-- memory allocation! 19:02:00 AnMaster: somehow i doubt #memory-allocation would get many people :-P 19:02:19 the channel didn't exist 19:02:39 AnMaster: very observant 19:02:49 -!- metazilla has joined. 19:04:03 ehird, just had to check in case 19:04:14 i never metazilla i didn't like 19:05:57 AUGH! 19:06:06 that pun was bad 19:06:26 also, old 19:06:34 -!- kt3k has joined. 19:06:54 probably 19:07:58 * oerjan wonders about the An in AnMaster's nick 19:08:03 oerjan, initials 19:08:14 ah 19:11:31 I haven't read of all the context, but to me it would sound somewhat cleaner to always just give out the first item in the free-list; or if the list is empty, the next free entry in the last block; or if the last block is full, allocate a new one. That way your free-list will be marginally shorter than in the "fill the last block first" case. 19:12:02 -!- moozilla has quit (Connection timed out). 19:12:15 fizzie, the issue is that I need to prepare freelist. Setting up the pointers initially is O(n) after all 19:12:27 -!- moozilla has joined. 19:12:54 fizzie, free list is basically a linked list *embedded* in the array that these are allocated from 19:13:03 since I want to avoid overhead of malloc 19:13:22 and memory fragmentation 19:13:33 Yes, I know you can keep it there, but I see no reason why it needs to be prepared in advance if it starts out empty and you keep a separate "we have allocated this many objects from the last block" count. 19:14:07 When you free() the object you just need to stick the value of the current free-list pointer to wherever the free()d pointer points to, and update your current "start of free list" pointer to point there. 19:14:16 fizzie, the array used for memory pool is malloced (of course), That means memory is undefined 19:14:36 I would need to set the pointers of the "next free" to null 19:14:40 for the whole aray 19:14:42 array* 19:14:53 hm 19:15:02 or rather 19:15:06 to point to the next item 19:15:14 NULL wouldn't work 19:15:45 I don't see why. When you start, you set your top-level "next free" pointer to NULL, which means it will allocate from the end of the already-allocated blocks. When you free() a block, just stick the current "next free" value to the place you freed, and update "next free" to point there. 19:16:02 That way you'll end up with a singly-linked list of pointers, terminated by a NULL entry. 19:16:03 ah 19:16:12 fizzie, but that is more or less what I said :) 19:16:30 Huh? There's no setting-up pointers in advance, only when free()ing the element. 19:16:42 fizzie, indeed. 19:16:53 but I said I would do basically what you said first 19:17:00 to avoid the issue 19:17:07 fizzie, so how is mine more complex 19:17:53 only difference is that I would allocate from end of the used blocks until I hit the end of the memory area, while you use free list as soon as possible 19:17:55 http://www.google.com/trends <- Why is the Mormon "church"'s domain the #1 trend...??? 19:18:14 AnMaster: Yes, that _is_ the only difference I was mentioning there. 19:18:23 http://www.google.com/trends/hottrends?sa=X And with a www. in front, #20. 19:18:30 Did they ask their members to googlebomb them or something? 19:18:44 fizzie, So the only difference in the code is what entry in the struct I test for NULL ;P 19:20:00 AnMaster: I just think it's -- as I said, marginally -- cleaner to allocate from the pointers-all-around-the-place free list so that it goes away, instead of filling the last memory block completely first. 19:20:10 yes you are probably right 19:20:42 But the idea itself sounds good, though terribly non-esoteric. 19:20:57 fizzie, however for point of memory fragmentation it doesn't matter, since all objects in the array are the same sizer 19:20:59 size* 19:21:07 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:21:16 fizzie, anyway yes but I couldn't think of another channel to ask 19:21:46 I think mooz, who used to hang around here writing befunge stuff, wrote a very nice fixed-size memory pool in C. Don't remember the details, but at least there were some similiarities. 19:21:58 I don't think I have a copy of it any more, though. 19:22:02 -!- timmytiptoe has joined. 19:22:23 fizzie, :/ 19:23:03 fizzie: being here since the start, what year would you say #esoteric was most active in? 19:24:36 Compared to the long-term average, it has certainly felt pretty active these last few months. 19:24:47 ehird, easy to find using logs 19:24:58 AnMaster: no 19:25:01 i mean actual activity 19:25:04 not 'ooh, this place is dead' 19:25:07 and '* netspli' 19:25:08 t 19:25:20 ehird, just check actual messages in the log 19:25:30 AnMaster: 'ooh, this place is dead' is an Actual Message. 19:25:33 but that doesn't fix the "what a dead place" 19:25:35 actual activity is subjective 19:25:36 agreed 19:25:40 ehird, hm true 19:27:30 -!- timmytiptoe has quit. 19:29:20 ooh, this place is dead 19:29:26 as a doornail 19:29:33 not really 19:29:35 a rusted one 19:29:41 Well, the byte sizes of the logs _do_ indicate _something_ about actual activity, and here's a quick-and-dirty GNUplot plot, even though the default options suck a bit: http://zem.fi/~fis/eso.png 19:29:43 underwater 19:29:48 oerjan, full of life, bacterias living on rust 19:29:55 they exist iirc 19:29:58 it's poisonous water 19:29:58 forgot the name for them 19:30:09 fizzie: Wow, so we are living in the golden age of #esoteric? 19:30:12 oerjan, there are bacterias in nuclear reactors... so? 19:30:49 fizzie, there seems to be a pattern, more active during the summers? 19:30:50 right? 19:31:22 ehird: As far as amount of content goes, maybe. I can't really meaningfully quantify the quality. 19:31:25 hard to say from that graph 19:31:35 fizzie: Oh our quality is certainly down. 19:31:37 AnMaster: duh, summer holidays 19:31:41 * oerjan feels nervous about a scale using e notation without being logarithmic 19:31:43 ehird, yes of course 19:31:46 but 19:31:50 is it really that way 19:31:59 if it is, holidays is the likely reason yes 19:32:04 The data is so noisy I can't really tell. 19:32:09 fizzie, ah 19:32:23 Anyway, amount of bytes in my monthly logfile might not be the best measure anyway. 19:32:30 agreed 19:32:31 fizzie: Hm. 19:32:35 fizzie, you could filter join/parts 19:32:43 that would be a *bit* more correct 19:32:45 fizzie: If you switch to wc -l, and then make it so that it draws lines between the points 19:32:48 that'd be reasonable 19:32:50 and hopefully not hard? 19:33:06 ehird, yes and sed away anything but messages and /me 19:33:09 Not hard, nope. Although I think I'll also grep it so that only those so-called actual messages are in. 19:33:11 which are really messages 19:33:16 Yea. 19:33:30 fizzie, don't forget CTCP ACTIONs 19:33:39 no idea how they are logged 19:33:51 making the dates on the X axis actually readable might help too *duck* 19:33:56 if it is raw log then I suggest grepping for PRIVMSG would work 19:34:05 oerjan, yes :) 19:34:09 AnMaster: it isn't raw 19:34:13 I know because I have seen his 2002 logs 19:34:19 ah 19:34:22 ehird, what format then? 19:34:25 there are so many 19:34:29 AnMaster: Pretty typical-looking. 19:34:33 Let me get you a line 19:34:51 AnMaster: 19:34:52 [18:05:22] -!- lament [~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #esoteric 19:34:52 [18:10:45] < lament> my tarantula molted! 19:34:53 [18:10:49] < shapr> yay! 19:34:53 [18:14:02] -!- lament [~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net] has quit ["PROSECUTORS WILL BE TRANSGRESSICUTED."] 19:34:53 --- Log closed Fri Jan 03 18:47:53 2003 19:34:58 ah hm 19:35:02 not unix timestamps 19:35:11 I suspect irssi behind that log 19:35:13 AnMaster: Humans sometimes read things :P 19:35:16 ehird: great excerpt :D 19:35:21 oerjan: yes :-) 19:35:35 Incidentally, mooz is in that log. 19:35:42 wait, shapr was here? that must be #haskell i think 19:35:50 [04:52:55] * andreou is feeling REALLY GOOD 19:35:52 oerjan: no 19:35:54 that's #esoteric 19:35:55 oerjan, it says "-!- lament [~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #esoteric" 19:35:55 2003 19:35:57 Okay, I think I've got a suitable expression; and the timestamps have changed since those earliest logs. 19:35:57 so 19:36:03 obviously #esoteric 19:36:03 AnMaster: yeah, and then shapr talks. 19:36:09 ah 19:36:10 but yes 19:36:13 its #esoteric 19:36:14 circa 2003 19:36:17 ah 19:36:20 [04:52:55] * andreou is feeling REALLY GOOD 19:36:22 is how the /mes look 19:36:28 ehird, since it says "foo joined #esoteric" that was pretty obvious 19:36:40 [2002-12-15 01:17:38] < navigator> 27M 19:36:43 is from the second log part 19:36:46 ah hm 19:36:47 but that's even older 19:36:48 so 19:36:53 many formats? 19:36:57 that is an iso date 19:37:00 AnMaster: shrug 19:37:04 err 19:37:07 hm 19:37:16 Replotting. 19:37:23 fizzie, with readable dates? 19:40:14 The file is now updated, although the date labels are very messed up; gnuplot is really user-unfriendly when it comes to time data and I don't remember the magic settings. 19:40:31 At least the labels are now readable, but the tickmarks don't hit the months correctly. 19:40:50 fizzie, ugh :/ 19:40:59 but interesting 19:41:00 Well, the points are months, and you can just count the from the nearest tickmark, which seems to be using the day/month/year format maybe. I think. 19:41:11 fizzie: Does it draw lines between the plots? 19:41:11 If so yay 19:41:18 Yes, there are lines. 19:41:21 hooray 19:41:21 lines 19:41:23 my luv 19:41:32 Hm. 19:41:36 That last huge peak. 19:41:38 What happened?? 19:41:53 Well, the last point is this October, it's not really comparable. 19:42:01 ah 19:42:11 So, essentially, "#esoteric is dying" has never been true. 19:42:15 It's always been gaining steadily. 19:42:28 yes over 5000 lines in 4 days in October? 19:42:31 cool 19:42:51 ehird, also no, look at the low before that 19:43:02 which was way way lower than so far this month 19:43:05 AnMaster: yes 19:43:06 but 19:43:07 the point is 19:43:12 it goes up and down BUT 19:43:14 yes 19:43:15 in the big picture 19:43:18 it always goes up 19:43:23 ehird, the peaks are always larger 19:43:25 so #esoteric has never been dying... it's been expanding 19:43:31 yes 19:43:35 we just need to figure out how to sustain the peaks :-P 19:44:08 more pasted code, clearly 19:44:17 * oerjan ducks again 19:45:18 >___O< Koin Koin 19:45:55 On 32-bit: 12 bytes overhead per memory pool. 4 bytes overhead per memory block. Double both on 64-bit. Still I think I beat malloc/free in the long run 19:45:58 silly french 19:46:10 :D 19:46:19 oerjan, it is French? 19:46:23 thought it was just random 19:46:31 or maybe the name of some of that anime crap or whatever 19:46:43 well Mony _is_ french 19:46:46 No per-object overhead usually means directly that you will beat a generic malloc. 19:47:00 fizzie, well that is impossible for free list 19:47:08 also, koin would be approximately qua... with a nasal vowel 19:47:15 fizzie, and object == memory block in this case 19:47:29 fizzie, but the main reason is that I got really bad memory fragmentation 19:47:31 but i'm googling to be sure 19:47:44 Oh; I though memory block == one page or so. 19:47:51 ah 19:47:58 What do you need four bytes there for? 19:47:59 fizzie, anyway I figured out a way to make that less. 19:48:20 http://www.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au/personal/dabbott/animal.html claims "coin, coin" 19:48:32 fizzie, for the pointer for next free object Or do you want me to allocate the memory for the linked list of them from *another* memory pool? 19:48:33 ;P 19:48:41 No, I mean, the free-list only contains unallocated objects, which means that the pointers can be "inside" the objects there. 19:48:44 anyway I could use offset in array 19:48:50 and then have 16 bit integer 19:48:55 which means 2 bytes overhead 19:49:28 fizzie, well since the objects are *less* than 8 bytes that wouldn't work on amd64 at least 19:49:35 but an union could work 19:49:36 hm 19:49:49 yes 19:49:50 :D 19:50:04 that would be truely awesome idea 19:50:21 I thought the "pointers use the space normally allocated for objects" was pretty much the "standard" way of doing that, at least when object size >= pointer size. 19:50:25 which means 4 bytes overhead on x86_64 and 0 bytes on x86 19:50:32 :D 19:50:35 * AnMaster changes 19:51:29 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:51:53 If you don't mind the "more instructions involved in free/malloc", I guess you could easily manage to fit into 32 bits some sort of "block index + offset" value instead of a raw pointer. 19:51:58 and if I have at most 2^32 objects in each memory pool then I could use a 32-bit index instead of a pointer 19:52:17 fizzie, you may have hit enter first, but I thought of it first ;P 19:52:25 Sure, sure. :p 19:53:04 fizzie, anyway I use "memory pool" here in the meaning "block header (3 * sizeof(void*)) + the relevant array" 19:53:40 anyway each such block would have it's own free list I think... Or maybe I should use a global freelist 19:53:47 Yes that would be better 19:57:55 the fool, er, the pool 19:58:24 oerjan, that pun totally failed 19:58:51 are you saying it was puny? 19:58:58 oerjan, no it wasn't 19:59:18 err assuming puny means "has the quality of a pun" 19:59:21 but 19:59:25 you fail :D 19:59:28 I guess it could mean something else 19:59:39 oerjan, does it mean something else? 19:59:43 yes 20:00:08 oerjan, what? 20:00:52 http://www.google.no/search?hl=no&q=define%3Apuny&meta= 20:01:20 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:01:31 oerjan, ah, yes then it was 20:02:34 * oerjan is shocked 20:02:51 though the pun with "puny" was quite good 20:09:48 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:14:08 -!- calamari has joined. 20:14:36 -!- hakware has joined. 20:15:04 -!- hakware has changed nick to ENKI-][. 20:15:25 growing with realloc() may fail 20:15:29 but what about shrinking? 20:15:38 logically it should succeed 20:15:47 can't see any reason why it wouldn't 20:16:31 it _could_ be just a NOP couldn't it 20:16:48 think so 20:18:20 fun fact: realloc(ptr, 0); is same as free(ptr); 20:19:11 and realloc(NULL, n); is same as malloc(n); 20:19:17 for all values (including 0) of n 20:19:23 according to man page 20:19:33 so basically we could do away with malloc and free 20:19:37 and just use realloc 20:20:53 However, C99 guarantees only realloc(NULL, n) doing the same thing as malloc(n), not the "size 0 does free" thing. 20:21:13 ollon. 20:21:26 fizzie, hm really? 20:21:28 * AnMaster checks 20:21:36 And in fact my "realloc" man page says "If size was equal to 0, either NULL or a pointer suitable to be passed to free() is returned." 20:21:42 "If size is 0 and ptr is not a null pointer, the object pointed to is freed." 20:21:43 oklocod: yllillä ollon ällä 20:21:47 fizzie, man 3p 20:21:54 so that is from POSIX 2001.whatever 20:21:56 oklocod! 20:22:02 I don't have posix man pages installed on this system. 20:22:02 * oerjan now wonders if he actually said anything 20:22:32 fizzie, so we could still do away with malloc 20:22:41 and rename realloc to alloc basically 20:22:45 AnMaster: do you know what ollon means? 20:22:53 or oerjan, i'm sure one of you should 20:23:12 not a clue 20:23:14 aaaanyway, oerjan, you didn't say anything meaninful, but it was definitely finnish 20:23:15 oklocod, yes 20:23:26 oklocod, it is the fruit of a type of tree 20:23:29 oak 20:23:30 that is it 20:23:37 the oak fruit is called ollon 20:23:41 that's not the only meaning, but yeah 20:23:45 well i did ensure vowel harmony 20:23:52 2. Ollon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 20:23:52 Ollon is a municipality in the district of Aigle in the canton of Vaud in Switzerland, sited in the foothills 20:23:54 that is another one 20:23:58 oerjan: ällä is the letter l 20:24:08 oklocod! 20:24:13 we need to make a language! 20:24:18 i think anmaster desires it! 20:24:26 AnMaster: well it should also mean a glans 20:24:28 Also according to wiktionary: "2. den översta delen på penis eller/och klitoris; glans penis/clitoris" 20:24:32 yes 20:24:39 i didn't even remember the other meaning 20:24:43 oklocod, "a glitter"? 20:24:52 AnMaster: what? 20:24:53 oklocod, actually more like shine 20:24:56 or glean? 20:24:57 hm 20:25:04 not sure of how to translate "glans" 20:25:04 AnMaster: what? 20:25:06 oh 20:25:07 to English 20:25:10 it's the tip of the cocker 20:25:20 WordNet quote: 1. glans -- (a small rounded structure; especially that at the end of the penis or clitoris) 20:25:26 So it might be any small rounded structure. 20:25:27 psygnisfive: languages!!! 20:25:29 the head of your cock 20:25:37 thats the glans 20:25:50 oklocod, no, it is the shine from, for example, a well polished metal surface. 20:25:57 that is what the adjective glans means 20:26:05 actually that is the noun form 20:26:12 glänser would be the adjective 20:26:22 anmaster: oh, not the english word glans 20:26:22 ok 20:26:23 haha 20:26:33 ah, that's what he was blabbering about 20:26:37 psygnisfive, ah ok, but he was using Swedish before 20:26:42 so I assumed he continued 20:26:42 yeah i only know obscene swedish 20:26:44 i propose a new convention: whenever referencing words from specific languages 20:26:45 use the format 20:26:57 en:what? 20:26:59 "word" 20:27:03 so 20:27:07 Swedish "glans" 20:27:10 psygnisfive, It is needed for English too 20:27:10 then 20:27:16 yes 20:27:17 well 20:27:20 psygnisfive: hello 20:27:20 English "glans" 20:27:20 psygnisfive: i used what AnMaster used in lingobot, and it seems standard for some reason 20:27:25 is not synonymous with Swedish "glans" 20:27:26 psygnisfive, English indeed 20:27:32 (lingobot was a bot of mine that translated words to 150 other languages) 20:27:38 Why not like this, it's nice and verbose. 20:27:42 psygnisfive: English is English not English synonymous 20:27:47 fizzie: :-P 20:27:57 English that English is English how English the English correct 20:28:04 English obviously 20:28:09 :) 20:28:16 are you saying you'd prefer just en:glans? 20:28:18 ok fine :P 20:28:23 se:glans != en:glans 20:28:27 psygnisfive, English nicks English doesn't English need English it 20:28:31 fizzie: that's not verbose enough, have a separate block for each word 20:28:57 psygnisfive, en:you en:don't en:get en:the en:point! en:you en:need en:it en:for en:every en:word 20:28:59 well but then oklocod 20:29:10 no you dont anmaster, shut up. 20:29:16 i said when talking about words 20:29:17 ok fine :P <-- en:should en:have en:been: en:ok en:fine :P 20:29:18 not when using them 20:29:20 theres a difference 20:29:23 en:YES! 20:29:29 AnMaster: Use-mention distinction. 20:29:30 en:NO en:DIFFERENCE 20:29:32 Plz to be learning it. 20:29:35 thank you ehird 20:29:39 you're my new best friend 20:29:44 for knowing that term 20:29:44 ehird, sure ok, I was just trying to make fun of en:this 20:29:50 oklocod: Somethingkutendethär? 20:29:57 AnMaster: Haha! You made fun of an entirely different, unjustifiably different thing! 20:30:00 So WITTY 20:30:08 yeah! 20:30:11 and he made up en:this too 20:30:13 ehird, thank you 20:30:15 fizzie: how about a question block too? 20:30:19 i suggested the standard natural-language version :P 20:30:20 ;P 20:30:26 oklocod: Maybe as an attribute to 'phrase'. 20:30:33 fizzie: yes, seems fitty 20:30:46 ehird, you'd do good in the semantics class i was in 20:30:47 no:vanvidd 20:30:48 fizzie, what does kuten mean? 20:30:59 AnMaster: It's close to en:like. 20:31:04 it took the students like two weeks to get the use-reference distinction 20:31:05 fizzie, that wasn't my question 20:31:13 AnMaster: kuten = like 20:31:19 fizzie, if I had wanted that I would have used > and such 20:31:19 tho there it was called "object language" and "meta language" 20:31:20 fi:kuten = en:like 20:31:22 fizzie, or maybe CDATA 20:31:25 oklocod, ah 20:31:30 right 20:31:32 blergh 20:31:33 psygnisfive: i've always got it intuitively 20:31:37 <3 20:31:41 I thought he meant the syntax was like it 20:31:57 The whole phrase was trying to be "something like this?" 20:32:21 psygnisfive, hm? you mean pointer vs object? 20:32:22 easy 20:32:33 AnMaster: no :P 20:32:36 oh look, AnMaster can only think in C 20:32:39 how unusual 20:32:41 ehird, or C++ 20:32:49 ehird, or pascal 20:32:49 AnMaster: yeah uh that'd be worse. 20:32:51 or whatever 20:32:55 you select 20:33:06 i'm surprised you didn't take the time to respond in obscure erlang to flaunt your skillz in it, though 20:33:23 ehird, if you don't stop attacking me I shall begin to use C++ with boost! 20:33:28 just to punish you 20:33:33 the use-reference distinction? err... the fact you can quote strings? 20:33:36 AnMaster: if you begin to use C++ with boost then I'll just /ignore you. 20:33:43 oklocod, hm maybe 20:33:51 ehird, hehe 20:34:16 ehird, and xerces-c or whatever that horrible xml library is 20:34:31 some java thing ported to c 20:34:33 horrible 20:35:09 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 20:35:37 wow xerces is not a misspelling of xerxes 20:35:54 oerjan, err? 20:35:59 is that the library's name? 20:36:01 maybe 20:36:18 oerjan: i noticed you've blurted out two quite low quality puns today; are you feeling alright? 20:36:43 oklocod: the weight of duty must be getting to me 20:37:02 97% is just so hard to acheive, even with bogus accounting 20:37:09 *achieve 20:37:30 anmaster: no, i mean code that operates on data 20:37:34 and data that is itself code 20:37:45 and what do you mean _two_? 20:37:48 e.g. quotations of the language you're speaking/coding in 20:38:11 or references to things in the language 20:38:27 e.g. the word 'word' 20:38:40 maybe if i higher some recently jobless bankers... 20:38:44 *hire 20:38:46 oerjan: or perhaps just one... i don't remember the other one, i just vaguely recall there was another 20:38:52 Chicago is a major city, 'Chicago' is a 7 letter word. 20:39:00 psygnisfive, Hm I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Do you mean like: Code that operates on another LISP expression vs. running that LISP expression? 20:39:04 my spelling is off, i think i must be tired 20:39:28 AnMaster: he means '(code here) versus (code here) 20:39:30 i mean the difference between calling someone a nigger, and saying that there is this word 'nigger' 20:39:36 oklocod, ah! 20:39:39 the first one is data that is code, the second is just code 20:39:44 psygnisfive: racist! 20:39:51 oklocod, yes I know that much of lisp 20:39:52 oerjan, sir! 20:39:55 obviously 20:39:57 learn the use-reference distinction! 20:40:07 :D 20:40:12 now see, i was gonna reference lisp but i figured it'd be too easy to miss 20:40:22 (this is use) '(this is reference) 20:40:32 yeah that'd've been prettier 20:40:43 psygnisfive, It should be possible to make a language without that distinction 20:40:45 hm.... 20:40:49 *maybe* 20:40:51 well 20:41:01 its possible to make a language that doesnt have reference, as such 20:41:12 yeah well 20:41:15 brainfuck for example 20:41:18 in the sense that you can't talk about strings as strings-in-the-language 20:41:26 just drop evaluation. 20:41:29 and most other tarpits 20:41:31 but you could also code evaluation. 20:41:38 which ruins it. 20:41:43 psygnisfive, not if it isn't TC! 20:41:48 well yes 20:41:52 but then who cares about it ;) 20:42:03 psygnisfive, there are some interesting non-tc languages 20:42:04 Who was it that argued (quite accurately) that C isn't TC? :) 20:42:12 AnMaster: Such as regex. 20:42:14 GregorR: many 20:42:30 everyone has realized that at some point in their life 20:42:40 and confirmed it @ #esoteric 20:42:42 GregorR, I think perl regex may be tc 20:42:45 not sure though 20:42:52 but it should be possible to extend it to me 20:42:54 be* 20:42:55 part of gödel's theorem is essentially that in any sufficiently powerful logical system, you _can_ do reference 20:42:59 oklocod: Amazing since the vast majority of people know neither C nor what "TC" means :P 20:43:08 RegEx is boring 20:43:13 oerjan, how is "sufficiently" defined? 20:43:21 also, how is C not TC? 20:43:34 GregorR: are you sure about the majority not knowing what C is? 20:43:36 oerjan, maybe: "a logical system where you can do reference"? 20:43:37 ;D 20:43:37 predicate logic + a tiny bit of arithmetic 20:43:38 my mom knows what C is 20:43:51 and she's like, a woman 20:43:53 :o 20:43:54 oklocod, you're finnish 20:43:56 oerjan, ah hm 20:43:58 oklocod: Your mom is the mom of somebody who knows what C is :P 20:43:58 your mom is finnish 20:44:02 finnish people are like 20:44:07 born knowing how to hack Linux 20:44:08 its a fact 20:44:14 It is. 20:44:24 oklocod: If I go ask some random art student what C is, they'll say "UHH, THE LETTER AFTER BEEEEEE" 20:44:37 GregorR, and is C TC? 20:44:38 -!- kt3k has quit ("CHOCOA"). 20:44:46 GregorR, ais523 said it was thanks to the file IO 20:44:47 anmaster, how isnt C TC? 20:45:04 GregorR: i loved that BEEEEEEE :P 20:45:08 psygnisfive, you need infinite memory, C doesn't allow that. sizeof(char*) must be finite 20:45:12 AnMaster: C minus libraries is not TC. C plus libraries with hardware access (which eventually leaves C) is TC. 20:45:18 psygnisfive, so memory size must be finite 20:45:23 ok 20:45:31 Naturally if you had a libInfiniteTape, C would be TC, but libInfiniteTape can't be written entirely in C. 20:45:47 but why does sizeof char* have to be non-finite? 20:45:55 GregorR, well the file IO is part of the standard 20:46:01 psygnisfive: otherwise only a finite amount of memory can ever be addressed 20:46:03 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:46:22 AnMaster: When we talk about languages in #esoteric, we're not talking about libraries ^^ 20:46:29 AnMaster: Even if those libraries are a standard part of the language :P 20:46:29 im not sure what sure, but does the C SPEC say that pointers have to be of a specific size? 20:46:46 psygnisfive: no, but they must be of *some* size 20:46:51 GregorR, so you talk about freestanding C? As used for kernels 20:46:51 or does the fact that C is on a finite machine require that? 20:47:08 AnMaster: Shore, but they always have some ASM too. 20:47:09 GregorR, and it was ais523 who first mentioned the file IO argument 20:47:15 oklocod, if that's the case, then _all_ programming languages are non-TC :P 20:47:16 GregorR, yes they do 20:47:21 psygnisfive: no 20:47:28 psygnisfive: No, because most languages don't have pointers. 20:47:33 in many languages, there is no need to have an address for an object 20:47:34 (Most *modern* languages anyway) 20:47:35 yes 20:47:46 sure but the C spec doesnt say that pointers have to be of some specific size does it? 20:47:59 psygnisfive: no, but they must be of some finite size when execution starrts 20:48:00 *starts 20:48:02 psygnisfive, the problem is the size of the pointer itself have to be finite 20:48:03 yes 20:48:13 well ok 20:48:14 firstly 20:48:24 all usable numbers are finite 20:48:27 that does not mean its not TC 20:48:39 since every memory address on an infinitely long tape is also a finite number 20:48:42 psygnisfive: the set of all usable numbers is infinite extendable 20:48:45 there is no tape-cell Infinity 20:48:48 if you don't have pointers 20:48:53 yes oklocod 20:48:59 there are an infinite set of usbale numbers 20:49:03 turing-completeness doesn't need infinite memory, just infinitely extendable 20:49:04 psygnisfive: sizeof(int *) has to be a finite number, no int pointer can be larger than that 20:49:07 psygnisfive, "finite size when execution *starts*" 20:49:07 but NONE of those numbers themselves are infinitely large 20:49:15 psygnisfive, you need to be able to grow it forever 20:49:19 at runtime 20:49:19 psygnisfive: nothing needs to be infinitely large 20:49:21 not allowed 20:49:30 psygnisfive: With a tape you don't need to absolutely address any of those finite numbers. 20:49:36 oh, i think i see what you mean sorry 20:50:08 psygnisfive: turing completeness is not about actually ever being able to allocate infinite memory, just that for any finite amount of memory the program may request at runtime, that amount of memory will be accessible 20:50:13 you mean that because you have to be able to talk about the size of specific pointers in C 20:50:16 you cant get TCness 20:50:20 for any pointer size, this is not enough. 20:50:23 because those pointers, being crucial to C's TCness 20:50:29 will always be finite 20:50:31 ok 20:50:37 Right. 20:50:48 Mind you, it's a strawman argument since C is defined for finite machines :) 20:50:54 im not sure how pointers are crucial to TCness but 20:51:04 psygnisfive, you need memory 20:51:21 hm wait a minute does C say anything about the unit of sizeof? 20:51:31 oerjan, only that it must be finite 20:51:34 oerjan: yes, it's a byte 20:51:34 sure but i dont have to allocate memory myself when doing, say, int five = 5 20:51:36 and so on 20:51:37 ...or is it 20:51:39 err 20:51:42 oklocod, sure? 20:51:44 and i dont care about its address 20:51:45 i think we've went over this 20:51:46 it should be size_t 20:51:51 oklocod, it is size_t 20:51:51 oerjan: An type with infinite range can't actually store the pseudonumber "infinity" anyway. 20:51:53 and im fairly certain that you can get TCness with just that 20:51:53 pretty sure 20:51:57 oklocod, ^ 20:52:02 well 20:52:03 i think 20:52:07 what oerjan is asking 20:52:07 and size_t is as large as pointers are 20:52:10 psygnisfive: But everything in C must be addressable: That is &var must always be defined. 20:52:11 without any reference to pointers or pointer tizes 20:52:12 sizes* 20:52:16 psygnisfive: Whether you use it or not. 20:52:18 is whether size_t could be abstract, and actually a bignum 20:52:22 is that so 20:52:26 well then that ruins the argument, GregorR: 20:52:31 i think that's what i'm asking 20:52:40 oerjan, sizeof() returns a size_t, sizeof(size_t) == sizeof(int*) 20:52:41 because the argument was that the size of the pointer was crucial to TCness 20:52:42 so... 20:52:43 doesn't help 20:52:58 since it needs to be finite when execution starts 20:52:59 but if you can build a TC bit of code without referencing the size of a pointer 20:53:06 psygnisfive: No, it was that /because/ C lets you address any variable, the size of pointers is crucial to the definition of C. 20:53:07 then the size of a pointer ISNT crucial to TCness 20:53:18 psygnisfive, err see what I said 20:53:18 psygnisfive: You could make a subset of C that didn't have that property and would be TC, yes. 20:53:21 it can't be bignum 20:53:23 as I said 20:53:24 ... 20:53:49 psygnisfive, and you can't access memory without pointers 20:54:07 psygnisfive, so you can't malloc() a block larger than a pointer 20:54:18 larger than the range of a pointer* 20:54:28 im not sure you'd need to do malloc() to make something TC in C. 20:54:43 psygnisfive, or access offsets in a static array either 20:54:47 an array you can't grow 20:54:54 psygnisfive, however it is TC with file IO 20:54:55 im not sure you'd need ARRAYS to make TCness in C. 20:55:14 i just dont see how the size of something unrelated to TCness can affect TCness. 20:55:33 psygnisfive, you need infinite memory, You can't access memory outside the range of pointers in C 20:55:35 yes, ok, the C spec requires size(int*) be finite, meaning that it requires finite memory, meaning its not TC 20:55:38 or rather 20:55:46 sure, fine. that i can see as a sort-of-argument 20:56:06 psygnisfive, prove it is TC even without file IO then 20:56:10 Death to the infidels. 20:56:51 but thats more about how pointers are implemented in C, not about C itself. 20:57:09 what i mean is, couldn't sizeof(int *) = 1, and _still_ int pointers have infinite range because the sizeof unit is infinite 20:57:19 psygnisfive: the finite pointer size basically means, you have a turing machine, but there is a finite amount of cells it can ever reach. 20:57:27 right, i get that 20:57:32 but thats not a fact about C, oklocod 20:57:39 thats a fact about the real world 20:57:39 infact it is 20:57:46 C merely reflects this fact 20:57:50 oerjan, sizeof(char) == 1 by definition. char must be a finite number of bits (the define CHAR_BIT iirc) 20:57:57 it is about C, because C guarantees you need to be able to address a variable. 20:58:02 bah 20:58:06 oerjan, pointer must be whole bytes 20:58:26 oerjan, could be CHAR_BITS btw, not sure about the name 20:58:27 and you can address an INFINITE number of variables in C! you just need enough memory to store that many variables 20:58:28 GregorR: did you fix your hat count? :D 20:58:28 but that exists 20:58:35 oerjan: ? 20:58:40 and a c-compiler to know how big the memory addresses are for that memory. 20:58:43 psygnisfive: you need to be able to access them all with a finite pointer. 20:58:51 GregorR: the count on your hats page is outdated 20:58:52 Oh, hah 20:58:54 "twenty" :P 20:58:57 oklocod: finite for what purpose tho? 20:58:57 I'll just remove the count. 20:59:18 psygnisfive: finite, as in there will always be a program that allocates a greater amount of memory 20:59:21 GregorR, hat page? 20:59:24 just because C guarantees you can address all the pointers doesnt mean that being ABLE to address all pointers is relevant to TCness 20:59:29 than can be addressed 20:59:55 does C dynamically adjust pointer sizes to handle memory differences? 20:59:57 that is 21:00:00 AnMaster: http://codu.org/hats.php 21:00:06 psygnisfive: pointer sizes are static. 21:00:13 psygnisfive, "finite and fixed when program starts" 21:00:14 if my machine has more memory than yours, does C know this, and alter its pointer size? 21:00:16 as mentioned above 21:00:23 when the program starts, i get that 21:00:26 but thats not the question 21:00:38 the question is does the size depend on what machine you start the program on 21:00:40 psygnisfive: C doesn't say anything about the pointer size 21:00:46 that has nothing to do with this argument 21:00:49 other than it needs to be finite 21:00:52 ofcourse it does 21:00:58 it has EVERYTHING to do with it 21:01:03 uhhuh? 21:01:07 psygnisfive, you can't create/use memory that can't be accessed with a pointer in C 21:01:11 because C DOES let you address any and all variables you want 21:01:17 so every variable needs to be accessible with a pointer 21:01:21 no, you cant anmaster 21:01:32 bBUT 21:01:40 theres no such thing as memory that cant be accessed by a C pointer 21:01:42 and every variable need to have an unique address 21:01:45 merely memory your computer doesnt have 21:01:50 but this is not a fact about C! 21:01:54 psygnisfive, wrong 21:01:56 oh my god 21:01:57 not wrong 21:02:00 BLAH BLAH BLAH 21:02:04 psygnisfive, you could have a 32-bit C on a 64-bit machine 21:02:05 I BLAH YOUR BLAHS UNTIL BLAH BLAH 21:02:10 psygnisfive: even with an infinitely large memory C wouldn't be tc 21:02:13 yeah 21:02:18 anmaster 21:02:20 oklocod, indeed 21:02:27 you said C addresses any memory you have 21:02:35 oklocod: irrelevant 21:02:38 fungot: do you blah about this? 21:02:38 oerjan: something like scheme48 ( upon which scsh was based) would be 21:02:42 psygnisfive: You are wrong, C is not turing complete, end of. 21:02:46 psygnisfive, no I didn't. I said every variable must be addressable 21:02:47 ehird: no. 21:02:49 you're wrong. 21:03:02 psygnisfive, and a C program can't access any memory that is not addressable with a pointer 21:03:04 all computations require only finite, but indefinitely large amounts of momory 21:03:07 memory* 21:03:09 psygnisfive: Of course I am, because you have continually shown that your attitude is that you cannot possibly be wrong, especially your intuitions. 21:03:14 well 21:03:17 all halting computations 21:03:49 psygnisfive: the point is you cannot calculate the needed size in advance 21:03:54 yes 21:03:57 but you dont need to 21:04:02 because if you try and it fails 21:04:06 you try again with more memory 21:04:07 psygnisfive, pointer size can't change at runtime 21:04:15 thus proving that there is no computation that cannot be performed in C 21:04:25 so long as you are given the appropriate amount of memory 21:04:30 way to go psygnisfive, whenever someone explains when you are wrong ignore them 21:04:32 thus proving that C is, despite your idiocy, Turing Complete 21:04:41 anmaster, i didnt say change it at runtime 21:04:45 did you read what i just said? 21:05:01 psygnisfive: but a single C program run isn't Turing Complete 21:05:06 so? 21:05:06 psygnisfive, restarting the program on another system is not valid for TC 21:05:07 which 21:05:08 is 21:05:11 we're not talking about a C program run 21:05:15 we're talking about C THE LANGUAGE 21:05:23 and yes it is valid, anmaster 21:05:25 its completely valid 21:05:27 psygnisfive: that's a valid point, yes 21:05:43 because you're talking about individual RUNS of a program in C 21:05:46 and im talking about C itself 21:05:56 of COURSE individual runs are not TC 21:06:10 but that too is a problem with computers being finite 21:06:19 we're talking hypothetical 21:06:22 hypothetical 21:06:23 psygnisfive, no you are wrong, since the program is basically another one if you change pointer size 21:06:24 turing machines 21:06:24 yes we are 21:06:25 are not finite 21:06:34 anmaster: thats ok 21:06:36 psygnisfive: the problem here is that C is then not a single language in the CS theoretical sense 21:06:37 im not talking about programs 21:06:38 we are talking about C running on a machine with actual, real, infinite tape 21:06:43 im talking about a programming language 21:06:46 which you dont seem to get 21:06:51 it becomes a family of languages indexed by pointer size 21:06:55 psygnisfive: ignore AnMaster and ehird, and listen to oerjan 21:07:01 oerjan, yes hm 21:07:02 oerjan: that is the first sensible response. 21:07:22 oklocod, well s/AnMaster and// ;P 21:07:33 psygnisfive: your arguments weren't exactly sensible until recently either :P 21:07:43 and to that i'd say, in that case, sure. but then it makes no sense to say the C language is not TC since there is no such thing as the C language, merely particular C languages with specific pointer sizes 21:07:46 oklocod, indeed 21:07:55 so, debate over 21:07:56 everyone wins 21:08:00 yes 21:08:02 especially me 21:08:10 you're hot 21:08:13 so you always win 21:08:13 oklocod, no especially oerjan 21:08:15 Hurrah! Icecream to everyone! 21:08:20 icecream! :D 21:08:27 oerjan, what flavour? 21:08:33 oklocum icecream 21:08:34 AnMaster: no, i win. i'm the winner 21:08:35 also, when is oklocod and psygnisfive going to marry? 21:08:40 good question 21:08:46 oklocod, when are we going to marry? 21:09:00 oerjan: hopefully soon so they can stop spamming #esoteric with it. 21:09:05 i haven't decided yet 21:09:05 oh no 21:09:07 once we do 21:09:09 it'll be worse 21:09:14 cause we'll have wedding photos 21:09:24 also, i'm still waiting for your proposal 21:09:27 * oerjan likes icecream with chocolate bits 21:09:27 and honey moon photos 21:09:30 which proposal? 21:09:37 i can propose lots of things 21:10:48 has anyone done a wedding proposal on Agora yet, i wonder 21:11:03 oh, a wedding proposal, oklocod? 21:11:07 ok. oklocod, marry me :O 21:11:47 oerjan, I prefer vanilla icecream 21:11:54 oerjan: that would be awesome 21:12:06 oerjan: 'Proposal: Marriage (AI=1) { ... }' 21:12:13 well vanilla icecream with chocolate sauce is also a favorite 21:12:14 whats agora? 21:12:23 www.agoranomic.org 21:12:24 oh no............ 21:12:25 oerjan: vanilla icecream plain is decicious 21:12:30 oh god 21:12:33 not a nomic 21:12:34 :( 21:12:41 sure 21:12:43 oerjan, I prefer with maple syrup 21:12:51 * ehird rips AnMaster's and psygnisfive's head off for insulting the Great Mighty 15-Year-Old Agora 21:13:11 oh im not insulting agora 21:13:12 dont you worry 21:13:14 ehird: i think AnMaster was discussing icecream 21:13:27 im just confused by the popularity of nomics in general 21:13:33 psygnisfive: why not 21:13:36 they're fun 21:13:59 i dont like games, so thats partially why ;) 21:14:09 oerjan, ever tried it? Oh and Ice cream made from fresh vanilla pods. Not just some vanilla-flavoured sugar. 21:14:15 yes, games are trivial! 21:14:17 like wierd 21:14:20 amirite 21:14:36 also, ice cream in any form, shape or anything is amazing 21:14:37 kthx 21:14:41 oh, im not saying people dont find them to be fun 21:14:52 i'm just not one of the people that does. :P 21:15:06 ehird, sure but some forms is tastier than other ones 21:15:14 gelato 21:15:15 guys 21:15:16 . 21:15:17 gelato. 21:15:19 AnMaster: well... it's kind of like bacon 21:15:25 there's not much room for suckitude :-P 21:15:27 ehird, with icecream? 21:15:30 ... 21:15:31 bacon 21:15:33 with icecream 21:15:34 my god 21:15:36 you are a GENIUS 21:15:37 psygnisfive is italian? 21:15:38 ehird, ugh 21:15:44 SOMEONE MAKE IT, NOW 21:15:55 im not italian 21:15:58 i just love gelato 21:16:00 its tasty 21:16:05 you are a GENIUS <-- well thank you 21:16:14 I shall remember that for the future 21:16:15 * oerjan thought it:gelato = en:icecream 21:16:17 AnMaster: Well only on the subject of bacon ice cream. 21:16:19 :| 21:16:31 There's a donut shop in Portland that makes Bacon Maple Bars 21:16:32 oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelato sez wp 21:16:34 They = awesome. 21:16:47 oerjan: not exactly true 21:16:48 ehird, please say it again with "AnMaster:" in front (without quotes), so optbot could put it in topic! 21:16:49 ;D 21:16:49 AnMaster: i dunno 21:16:52 there are slight differences in how its made 21:16:58 its italian icecream, yes 21:17:03 but it tends to be not quite the same 21:17:04 AnMaster: no, optbot strips those off 21:17:04 ehird: Screen brightness. Turn it down. :P 21:17:15 GregorR: Hmm. Say, an #esoteric meetup in Portland. YES THAT SOUNDS GOOD 21:17:16 ehird, blergh 21:17:17 ehird: that mad english cook has an egg and bacon icecream, was mentioned in the Ig Nobel news recently 21:17:24 * ehird plots to steal all the bacon maple bars 21:17:26 ehird: I don't live in Portland now :P 21:17:36 in my experience, gelato is smoother and heavier 21:17:38 ehird, Portland in what country? 21:17:40 GregorR: Well... fine it'll be a very lonely meetup 21:17:40 :-P 21:17:57 AnMaster: US i'm guessing. 21:18:12 ah 21:18:22 Is there a Portland, UK? I can't imagine there's a Portland anywhere else ... 21:18:27 But yeah, I was referring to Portland, OR, USA. 21:18:38 there are like 21:18:41 5000000000000 portlands 21:18:44 psygnisfive: maybe it's like it:pizza /= us:pizza 21:18:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland 21:19:04 i imagine so 21:19:07 also 21:19:12 ca:pizza != ny:pizza 21:19:23 GregorR, what about Australia? 21:19:39 ah ehird was first 21:21:16 Portland, OR, USA is the only Portland of significance :P 21:21:29 there's a Sortland, Norway at least 21:21:47 its it sort of like portland? 21:22:09 i've never been to a portland 21:22:42 oh btw europeans, especially french and germans: 21:23:02 flammekuche is delicious 21:23:28 /tarte flambee 21:23:40 i am kind of european. i'm in europe but my country cries whenever anybody says europe 21:24:04 which country? england? they dont like being part of europe. 21:24:24 oh wait, ehird 21:24:25 you're tusho 21:24:26 haha 21:24:28 i forgot that 21:24:29 :D 21:24:36 Durr. 21:24:40 <3u 21:24:44 ehird, Europan Union! 21:24:53 (no I don't really like it) 21:25:03 oklocod, whens your birthday? 21:25:09 AnMaster: our government keep weaseling out of european union stuff :-P 21:25:20 ehird, you are lucky 21:25:25 wish our would do it too 21:25:38 you guys dont like the EU? 21:25:48 AnMaster: why? I haven't seen actual objections to the EU beyond the beauocracy 21:25:50 [sp] 21:25:52 but who's going to check America's international influence? CHINA? RUSSIA? 21:26:00 not that americans influence is so hot these days but 21:26:26 ehird, well that is one part, and the other part is that, while for some countries stuff improved with EU, it went the other way for Sweden. We used to have better social security before EU 21:26:29 and so on 21:26:35 a beauocracy would be something 21:26:41 oerjan: bearocracy 21:26:48 the government consists of bears 21:26:50 that too 21:26:51 ehird, it seems everything goes to some average 21:26:52 and the bears decide everything. 21:27:03 ehird, see what I mean? 21:27:08 AnMaster: I guess. 21:27:29 ehird, so for Sweden it really been a bad thing. For some other countries it has been a good thing 21:30:39 also, beanocracy 21:30:47 and beatocracy 21:35:51 -!- lilja has joined. 21:53:37 i am a bear 21:53:37 ^_^ 21:53:54 I'M PROZAC THE BEAR 21:53:59 ehird: rawr 21:54:01 ::pounce:: 21:54:05 ::maul:: 21:54:07 psygnisfive: no. 21:54:19 :( 21:54:24 r..rar? 21:55:01 THIS IS A BEAR HELLO 21:55:03 ( http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/bearhello ) 21:56:29 theres a whole series of those 21:56:36 and i wish i remember where i found them 21:56:39 no, there isn't 21:56:41 however 21:56:43 there is 21:56:44 actually 21:56:45 all of Somebody's toons are like that 21:56:46 theres like 5 of them 21:56:47 but its not a series 21:56:50 oh 21:56:51 ok 21:57:01 bear hello is the masterpiece though 21:57:23 i love Somebody's stuff 21:57:28 theyre very surreal and fucked up 21:57:37 and completely disconnected 21:57:42 they're beautiful 21:57:51 actually i think bear hello makes some sort of sense if you recognize that its not in chronological order 21:58:06 aww man dont say that 21:58:11 making sense is for chumps 21:58:14 tho then again 21:58:22 non-linear story telling is also pretty awesome 21:58:34 http://shii.org/knows/Bear_Hello <- a scholarly interpretation of bear hello 21:58:35 sense it no! make cannot 21:58:40 do you have other Somebody art? 22:09:27 ehird! 22:09:30 more somebody@ 22:11:31 psygnisfive: google. use it 22:14:04 oerjan, Talk like Yoda day it isn't 22:14:37 is it yes. 22:15:33 isn't indeed it 22:16:22 21 May, Talk like Yoda day is. 22:17:58 Är det inte Kim Jong-Il som sitter der borta? 22:21:27 *där 22:21:55 i tried, ehird but it didnt work :( 22:22:06 psygnisfive: shrug 22:25:10 woo i found more 22:25:10 :D 22:25:16 btw 22:25:17 link? ive seen one more of his 22:25:19 tusho 22:25:19 but nothing else 22:25:25 thank you for link me to bear hello 22:25:28 also there is no tusho in #esoteric 22:25:31 http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/misc/ 22:25:32 also no problem. 22:25:41 ive beenlooking for him for fucking ages 22:25:47 also, why did you go back to ehird? 22:25:49 huh, he made puppy whirl? 22:25:52 crazy. 22:26:31 psygnisfive: also because i felt like it 22:27:25 k 22:27:27 <3you anyway 22:27:34 <3ed you more as tusho 22:27:54 oh shut up. 22:28:19 no, i just liked "tusho" better. it sounded cooler. 22:28:38 it also had a quota of 1 'tush' joke a day 22:28:49 :\ 22:28:56 ::hug:: well i liked it and i never made such crude jokes 22:28:59 ok im off 22:29:01 actually 22:29:02 yes you did 22:29:02 ::pet:: see ya 22:29:05 i did not! 22:29:08 you did, once 22:29:14 i would never 22:29:20 mainly because i didnt read it like that 22:29:24 should i grep to find it 22:29:25 it was too-show for me 22:29:26 tu-sho 22:29:32 so i never noticed that "tush" reading at all 22:29:36 anyway, bye :P 22:30:02 ehird, btw GCC got something called "objective-c++" 22:30:04 *shudder* 22:30:13 I haven't looked closer at it 22:30:14 AnMaster: thats not gcc specific 22:30:18 ah 22:30:18 its for interfacing C++ and obj-c code 22:30:19 thats all 22:30:53 ehird, it still sounds awful 22:31:01 AnMaster: probably, but you gotta use c++ stuff somehow 22:31:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective-C#Objective-C.2B.2B 22:31:28 its just the objective- transformation applied to c++ instead of c 22:31:29 :-P 22:31:39 no actual interaction 22:32:09 ehird, not GCC specific you said? 22:32:14 wikipedia seems to disagree 22:32:16 AnMaster: originated in gcc. 22:32:47 ehird, what other compilers have it? 22:32:55 dunno. 22:33:03 gcc is like the only obj-c out there 22:33:05 apart from that one guys' 22:33:09 which is useless 22:33:13 he has a vendetta against apple 22:33:17 ehird, so gcc specific then? 22:33:20 more or less 22:33:20 and thus no actual obj-c program compiles with his impl 22:33:23 because it is totally different 22:33:29 AnMaster: theres not anything in that that is _specific_ to gcc 22:33:32 but i think gcc is the only current impl 22:33:38 but then gcc is the only real obj-c impl 22:33:42 so only as much as obj-c is gcc specific 22:34:20 what do you think of the language "Dylan" 22:34:27 I know almost nothing of it 22:34:33 AnMaster: its a lisp derivative 22:34:34 with syntax 22:34:35 however I ran into it a few times recently 22:34:36 and OOP 22:34:40 it originally wasn't syntaxful 22:34:45 but it was made syntaxful to appeal to a wider market 22:34:48 which is a shame 22:34:48 hm good or bad? 22:34:53 ah bad then I guess 22:35:06 AnMaster: not an improvement, but it DOES show that a lisp can have added-syntax and not break 22:35:17 define method factorial(n :: ) 22:35:17 if (n = 0) 22:35:17 1 22:35:17 else 22:35:18 n * factorial(n - 1) 22:35:19 end 22:35:21 end method; 22:35:23 kind of pascally 22:35:36 it is quite easy to read 22:35:46 yes, pascally languages generally are very easy to read 22:35:49 but not easy to write 22:35:55 indeed 22:36:07 and it prevents the best thing with lisp 22:36:11 macros 22:36:17 well not the best 22:36:20 but one major point 22:36:23 yes macros 22:37:12 btw in "R5RS" what does the R and the RS stand for? 22:37:22 Revised^5 Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme 22:37:23 it went like 22:37:28 aha 22:37:29 Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme 22:37:31 Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme 22:37:33 Revised Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme 22:37:36 Revised^4 Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme 22:37:39 hehe 22:37:44 because nobody could be arsed to write out that many "Revised"s 22:38:00 you could have used "5th" 22:38:02 or something 22:38:08 but this is cooler 22:38:09 AnMaster: but that's less fun 22:38:12 :P 22:38:12 yeah 22:38:29 its up to Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme 22:38:31 although as i said 22:38:36 R6RS wasn't really passed in 22:38:39 by any sane vote counting method 22:38:47 ehird, hm... 22:38:55 and the standard is bad? 22:39:02 AnMaster: pretty much, yes 22:39:05 ehird, how so? 22:39:22 AnMaster: it adds a base standard library to scheme, which is cool, but its not structured very schemey 22:39:28 and it also bloats the language 22:39:30 ah I see.. 22:39:32 with some unneccessary stuff 22:39:40 ehird, a standard library *is* a good idea however 22:39:50 i don't disagree 22:39:53 but r6rs isn't the answer 22:39:54 would make portable scheme programs actually be possible 22:40:06 ehird, well r7rs then :) 22:40:13 AnMaster: no, because that'll be a revision of r7rs 22:40:17 probably wants to be compatible with r5 hm... 22:40:23 ehird, "of r6..." 22:40:24 and most of the scheme community has disavowed the committee 22:40:41 you said r7 would be a revision or r7 22:40:42 :P 22:40:47 yes 22:40:48 "{ 22:40:48 :P 22:40:52 [[On 29 August 2007, the Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Report on Scheme was ratified by the Steering Committee. This has made a lot of people quite angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. 22:40:52 Many programmers believe that it was created by some sort of community process, though the Jatravartid people of Viltvodle VI believe that the entire Standard was in fact sneezed out of the nose of a being called the Great Green Arkleseizure. This theory is not widely accepted outside Viltvodle VI, and so, standards being the puzzling documents that they are, other standards are being designed. And this wiki, which is called SchemePunks, is definitely not part 22:40:56 Which is very odd, because without that fairly simple piece of knowledge, nothing that is written on here could possibly make the slightest bit of sense. We hope to develop an alternative specification for the Family of Programming Languages known as Scheme. Watch this space.]] 22:41:00 that likely got cut off 22:41:24 nice HHGTTG reference 22:41:30 oerjan: yes, from scheme-punks.org 22:41:36 the second paragraph got cut off 22:41:37 didn't it 22:41:47 which is called SchemePunks, is definitely not par 22:41:47 Which is very odd 22:42:01 t of the Scheme Underground, even if it is, which it isn't. 22:42:08 ... definitely not part 22:42:20 "R6RS must die." -- Chicken lead developer Felix Winkelmann 22:42:35 hm 22:42:50 AnMaster: 22:42:52 http://lists.r6rs.org/pipermail/r6rs-discuss/2007-October/003351.html 22:43:00 the whole list of people who ain't gonna implement r6rs 22:43:01 lisp should have module name spaces 22:43:04 (Spoiler: all of them) 22:43:07 AnMaster: common lisp does 22:43:17 ehird, mmmh :) 22:43:25 ehird, it makes code easier to organise 22:43:32 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:43:36 AnMaster: plt has modules and such 22:43:48 plt is as featureful as common lisp, really, just with a more schemish (generally cleaner) attitude 22:43:55 ehird, yep. However non-portable code troubles me 22:44:01 call it a character flaw if you want 22:44:12 AnMaster: i don't like the scheme situation either 22:44:13 BUT 22:44:16 common lisp isn't any more portable 22:44:21 yeah 22:44:22 common lisp has no portable networking etc 22:44:25 so we need portable lisp 22:44:38 AnMaster: except that attempts to reinvent lisp have been almost universally poor 22:45:44 im considering doing something with plt scheme sometime 22:45:48 just to kind of show my support for it 22:45:51 reach out to more languages 22:46:34 AnMaster: oh, also 22:46:49 ?? 22:47:18 all the reviews of Chez Scheme i've read are _very_ highly praised, it sounds like its IDE is state of the art (really good analysis, refactoring and such cools) and apparently its library set is really good 22:47:26 also it was first released in 1985 22:47:27 and uses incremental native-code compilation 22:47:31 (read: really really fast) 22:47:31 BUT 22:47:34 it costs $$$ 22:47:47 if ((pool->first_free - pool->base) >= (POOL_ARRAY_COUNT * sizeof(memory_block))) <-- GCC complains that I compare signed and unsigned, but I can't figure out which side it thinks is signed.. 22:47:51 so i guess PLT isn't *the best* but it's the best to *use* 22:48:07 indeed scheme.com (chez scheme site) doesn't even list the price 22:48:13 just a 'contact us for licensing information' 22:48:17 which is code for '$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$' 22:48:32 ah found it 22:50:41 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 23:06:16 a 23:07:51 b 23:13:13 optbot! 23:13:14 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | S pushed 647201. 23:21:12 Re R6RS, note that "all of them" does not include PLT. 23:26:47 Guys - 23:26:48       23:26:52 there are odd unicode chars in that line 23:26:55 \xc2\xa0 23:26:56 what is u 23:26:57 it 23:27:04 its not even unicode 23:27:06 just invalid... 23:27:41 fizzie: do you know 23:30:27 0xc2, 0xa0 -> 0b11000010 0b10100000 -UTF8-> 0b00010100000 -> U+00A0 NO-BREAK SPACE 23:30:59 Or maybe a "-[de-UTF8]->" notation would be more appropriate. 23:31:41 fizzie: sqlite3.OperationalError: Could not decode to UTF-8 column 'text' with text 'Wooble is a coauthor of this proposal. 23:31:43 no, its not utf-8/ 23:31:56 Well, 0xc2 0xa0 _is_ UTF-8 encoding for no-break space. 23:34:42 -!- lilja has quit ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'"). 23:42:07 valgrind: the 'impossible' happened: 23:42:07 Killed by fatal signal 23:42:14 I think my code is really fucked up atm 23:42:16 hehe 23:42:21 it crashed valgrind itself 23:49:03 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i would be really happy if someone checked if the update is ok. :-). 23:58:54 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2008-10-05: 00:00:09 ah got it to work 00:03:58 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:18:17 night 00:19:24 fizzie, "de-UTF8"? 00:19:25 huh? 00:19:43 German? 00:20:07 does UTF-8 come in different flavours for different languages really!? 00:22:06 "de-" ~= "un-" 00:30:47 "de" as in "decode", in this case. 00:31:47 Although in "decode" the "de-" has the usual ~= "un-" prefix meaning. 00:33:28 http://drivey.com/DONKEYQB.BAS.html i wish i could code like this, its a whole game with graphics packed into such small space 00:33:36 "Latin prefix, “from”. 1. Meaning reversal, undoing or removing: decouple, de-ice. 2. Intensifying: denumerate. 3. Meaning from, off: detrain." 00:33:46 i used to say, blah blah bill gates can't program blah blah sucks blah 00:33:54 but then donkey.bas, just, wow 00:34:00 i couldn't write donkey.bas in that little code 00:34:02 no way 00:35:51 also even if i could write that code i couldn't write it on an 80x24 console with no fancy cross-referencing 00:48:58 'night dudes 00:49:21 -!- Mony has quit ("Ne regrettons pas le passé, ne nous préoccupons pas de l'avenir : le sage vit dans le présent."). 02:17:09 -!- danopia has quit (Connection timed out). 02:17:36 -!- danopia has joined. 03:07:22 -!- oerjan has quit ("Gooed knight"). 03:09:10 -!- Azstal has joined. 03:25:34 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 03:56:30 So, mathematical proofs have been turned into music. 03:57:21 Each step is one note, the pitch being its depts. 03:57:24 Depth. 03:57:37 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal. 04:12:37 -!- appletizer has joined. 04:12:40 -!- appletizer has left (?). 04:36:46 * bsmntbombdood goes to live with oklocod in norway 04:37:38 *bow chicka bow wow* 04:40:29 no kidding 05:16:43 -!- Asztal has quit ("@"). 05:19:38 you know that oklocod isnt in norway right? 05:19:40 hes in finland? 05:19:58 also, hands off bitch, he's mine! >O 05:27:59 To my knowledge, oklocod is not a scrawny woman with a penis. 05:49:03 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | que. 06:15:00 this is correct, gregor. 06:15:13 he's a beautiful finnish boy. 07:16:36 uh wut 07:16:43 oklpol is not in finland 07:16:55 he lives in oslo 07:17:12 oerjan is in finland 07:56:41 -!- Asztal has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:38:25 -!- lilja has joined. 08:39:32 sometimes i just say something to know whether i'm oerjan or oklopol. we're just that similar 08:39:39 also i guess i'm not either atm 08:39:41 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol. 08:44:16 -!- kt3k has joined. 08:47:22 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 08:54:03 oklopol i love you :) 08:54:05 you're so beautiful 08:54:07 you crazy finn 08:54:23 so you didnt answer my question! 08:56:38 what question? 09:47:30 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("So, how much do you love noodles?"). 10:25:44 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:01:26 -!- kt3k has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:28:26 -!- kt3k has joined. 11:28:34 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:28:41 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:35:56 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:49:03 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | makes sense. 12:19:21 hm 12:19:48 awesome topic 12:20:04 btw, anyone know a regex to validate an email? I needs to support all the obscure features, such as embedded and nested comments 12:20:22 perl or PCRE style regex needed 12:20:59 I don't need to extract the email in some normalised format, just find if it is valid or not :) 12:29:16 AnMaster: Dunno, but that validation is possible to do with DFA+counter... 12:37:49 http://www.regular-expressions.info/email.html claims to have a RFC 2822 -compliant one, but I'm not sure I'd (a) trust them or (b) use it. 12:40:56 I'm not sure it does comments correctly, judging from the description. 12:43:14 To do comments right, you need something more powerful than standard Regex (which is equivalent to DFA). 12:43:37 Well, Perl regex is quite far from "standard", what with the "embed code in it" features. 12:43:51 But the one quoted there is suspiciously short and simple for that. 12:46:02 Still, depending on circumstances it might make more sense to ask your local mail system whether it thinks the given address is valid, especially if you intend to actually send some mail there. Not that that's always possible. 12:48:16 hm 12:48:50 fizzie, I don't know if there will be any mail system where the code runs 12:49:15 and even if there was, I got no idea how to ask it 12:49:27 qmail? ssmtp? sendmail? postfix? 12:49:31 and various other 12:54:46 Yes, for potentially-portable code it's not really possible. 12:56:20 And of course that kind of testing would usually accept "foo" as a valid address since it often auto-expands to "foo@the.local.domain". 12:58:17 fizzie, hm yeah I only care if it is well formed, not if it is valid 13:05:10 -!- danopia has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 13:05:50 -!- danopia has joined. 13:08:51 If you really want exact compliance, you might have more look just writing a parser from the RFC2822 ABNF notation, instead of trying to match that with a regex. 13:08:59 s/look/luck/, gah. 13:47:11 -!- moozilla has joined. 13:51:54 lol@psygnisfive correcting oklopol's whereabouts to bsmntbombdood 13:52:06 bsmntbombdood was having orgies with oklopol before psygnisfive even came here the first time/ 14:15:35 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:16:35 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:23:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:24:19 yes i guess i'm somewhat... orgylicious? 14:45:08 I've seen a proper RFC 822 email regex, and it was definitely longer than the one of regular-expressions.info 14:45:20 it was about 20 lines or so at 80 characters wide 14:45:34 Asztal: its not valid. 14:45:38 its about 40 lines 14:45:41 and 14:45:45 it only handles nested comments 14:45:47 to i think 6 deep 14:46:11 :( 14:46:59 it's a shame, really, I like my double-quoted email addresses, but I can't use them anywhere 14:47:34 double-quoted? 14:47:56 e.g. "Real Name"@domain.com 14:48:39 hm 14:50:53 Should be possible to do a real one with Perl regexps, though; this slide has one "match balanced parentheses" example: http://perl.plover.com/yak/regex/samples/slide083.html 14:52:04 And PCRE also seems to have some support for doing recursion within a regex with syntax like "(?P>name)", which apparently will recursively match a group named (?P...). 14:52:52 The Perl one embeds Perl code in it so obviously only works with Perl, and correspondingly the (?P>name) syntax seems to be a PCRE-only extension. 14:53:42 this stuff reminds me of that "gluing things to a skateboard to make a racecar" phrase with brainfuck derivatives 14:55:15 now where did that go... 14:56:45 my attempts to google seem to only throw up people doing so physically, or something 14:57:12 ah it was "luxury car" 15:00:04 [2006-08-05 03:50:52] < RodgerTheGreat> brings to mind the old "gluing parts onto a skateboard to make a luxury car" adage. 15:00:26 it's in the Brainfuck article on the wiki 15:00:57 o 15:01:11 ko 15:01:32 oko 15:01:55 okok 15:02:04 okoko 15:02:07 kokoko 15:02:11 Whoops, the fungot ^oko command got lost when it crasheded. 15:02:11 fizzie: try it! it's so clever i wanna cry 15:02:18 Uh... 15:02:19 ^oko 15:02:24 fungot: See, it doesn't work. 15:02:24 fizzie: but i want to apply map to each list in the end 15:10:17 -!- kar8nga has joined. 15:17:44 -!- slereah has joined. 15:17:44 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:34:12 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:55:17 -!- Ilari has quit ("Won't be back for a while..."). 15:59:37 fizzie, hm 16:00:33 Asztal, are you sure quoted emails like that are valid? 16:01:15 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:02:08 AnMaster: Yes. 16:02:27 So is "Hello (world"(test\)ab"c)")@foobar.com 16:10:02 nice 16:10:13 ehird, how many MTAs handle that? 16:10:21 that's not the precise word i would have used 16:10:30 AnMaster: Beats me. 16:10:44 But the "canonical" version is "Hello (world"@foobar.com 16:10:51 hopefully all, but that is so strange, one never knows 16:10:55 hm 16:13:11 hmm, thunderbird doesn't show it properly, but it does get to me when I use it 16:13:42 TB just shows "test)" 16:18:15 Parsing is a solved problem, it's just everyone keeps forgetting the solution... 16:18:30 and it is _not_ regexes 16:18:32 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:18:56 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 16:22:44 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:30:28 oerjan, right, a recursive parser would work best I think 16:30:37 at least it seems like the most logical way to do it 16:40:25 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 16:41:00 -!- danopia has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:49:33 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:58:31 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:04:10 -!- Mony has joined. 17:05:00 -!- slereah has joined. 17:05:04 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:06:11 plop :) 17:06:52 hai 17:07:29 Ello ello. 17:08:07 hey hey 17:08:22 * ihope convolutes psygnisfive with a sinc function 17:08:39 sinc? 17:08:44 You were broadcasting on too many frequencies, I'm afraid. 17:09:02 oerjan: sin x / x, modulo constants. 17:09:18 In the slang sense of "modulo", that is. 17:09:37 * oerjan googles 17:10:04 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/sinc, en.wiktionary.org/wiki/modulo? 17:10:17 sinc 17:10:27 I sinc so. 17:11:00 oerjan: i beat you to it 17:11:02 i beat you to it 17:11:03 ic, it really _is_ modulo constants 17:11:04 I BEAT YOU TO IT 17:11:07 * psygnisfive convolutes ihope with a sinh function 17:11:47 * oerjan convolutes ehird with absinthe 17:11:56 that's illegal :O 17:12:05 Gasp! 17:12:11 * ihope looks in his Book of Fourier Transforms 17:12:39 its not illegal 17:12:55 you just have to use special absinthe. 17:12:58 atleast in the US 17:13:17 "A revival of absinthe began in the 1990s, when countries in the European Union began to reauthorize its manufacture and sale." 17:13:19 * slereah convolutes ihope with Dirac Delta 17:13:52 Let's see, sinh is e^x - e^-x modulo a constant, so its Fourier transform is... 17:14:01 psygnisfive: yes but i am 13 17:14:06 slereah: that tickles! 17:14:06 most certainly illegal :-P 17:15:03 well, he convoluted you with absinthe 17:15:08 not .. served you absinthe 17:15:10 difference! 17:15:42 banning absinthe was silly in the first place 17:15:47 but they probably didnt know that 17:15:50 and now ehird seems to be stuck in my convolution apparatus 17:16:10 Well, the Fourier transform of e^iax is delta(omega - a) modulo a constant, so... I think the delta means psygnisfive has permanently modified me. 17:16:18 btw 17:16:26 did this inspire you earlier, oerjan: http://xkcd.com/26/? 17:18:20 thats a golden oldie XKCD right there. back when randall was a wee boy trying to be cool AND nerdy at the same time 17:20:02 i think ihope started this subject, not i 17:20:15 btw 17:20:22 did this inspire your earlier, ihope: http://xkcd.com/26/? 17:20:37 Damnit! 17:20:42 stray r! damn the luck! 17:20:56 where? 17:21:06 psygnisfive: nope. 17:21:24 hm, IWC had something similar 17:21:35 (of course i read both) 17:21:48 IWC? 17:21:57 Irregular Webcomic 17:22:05 or maybe xkcd did it twice 17:22:23 ph right 17:22:45 Irregular Webcomic is the one with the legos, isn't it? 17:22:51 http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1640.html 17:22:58 in general, yes 17:23:03 not this one comic though 17:23:26 oh wait it was an xkcd parody 17:23:40 i dont like IRW 17:23:41 :( 17:23:42 http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/2078.html 17:24:10 "Hah! haha! That's so funny! Because like, see, Indy said they don't stop for anything, and then the nazi says that they sneer at stopping! :D" 17:24:12 No. 17:24:54 that's an in-joke, sort of 17:25:08 inside jokes shouldn't be publicized 17:25:11 you know why? 17:25:14 because they're inside jokes 17:25:22 the nazi science sneers bit 17:25:25 meaning they're only fun... inside a small group of people 17:25:43 um it's an inside joke for _that comic_ 17:26:06 right 17:27:04 oh and there is sinc too 17:32:27 so, a comic is doing a joke that is only funny if you have read the comic? 17:32:36 * SimonRC reads IW too 17:38:54 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:44:40 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 17:44:43 SimonRC: so, a comic is doing a joke that is only funny if you have read the comic? 17:44:44 UNHEARD OF 17:47:18 ;-) 17:49:04 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | More like ``all the hallucination''.. 17:49:16 yeah that must be it 17:51:16 i guess psygnisfive thinks garfield is hilarious 17:51:18 no context needed there 17:51:50 hey hey don't let it get out of hand here 17:52:10 * ehird opens hand, it gets out 17:52:36 * oerjan swats it ---## 17:52:47 stop swatting things 17:52:52 I nominate ihope for Grand Swatter. 17:53:01 * oerjan swats ehird ---## 17:53:07 you're not a thing are you? 17:53:22 yes 17:53:23 i am 17:53:26 ehird: I prefer garfield minus garfield 17:53:30 * oerjan hides the swatter before ehird can swallow it again 17:53:41 SimonRC: hmm, what about garfield minus jon 17:53:41 "again" 17:53:44 ? 17:53:45 what about garfield minus garfield and jon 17:53:48 SimonRC: I ate it before 17:53:51 when I was a snake 17:53:53 then I ate oerjan 17:53:55 then I ate myself 17:53:57 causing a singularity 17:54:01 ehird: when was this?> 17:54:05 SimonRC: a few days ago 17:54:06 it was AWESOME 17:54:13 * psygnisfive knuffelt ehird 17:54:34 knuffelt sounds like a death metal term 17:54:36 psygnisfive: ?? 17:54:39 hey, keine Verknuffeling! 17:54:43 like... knuffelt=RIP BRAINS OUT 17:54:59 *ung 17:54:59 it actually means 'hugs' XD 17:55:17 hmm 17:55:19 it has a u 17:55:21 that should be a v 17:55:30 FVCKING KNVFFELT RAMPAGE 17:55:40 if .. you're roman... 17:55:41 o.o; 17:55:50 no obviously it should be ü 17:55:57 indeed 17:56:00 The Knüffel Deäth 17:56:04 psygnisfive: no, U->V is very common among METÄLHEADS 17:56:15 i've never done such romanesque stuff. 17:56:22 FVCKING KNVFFËLT RÄMPÄGË 17:56:26 hmm 17:56:27 ¨V 17:56:28 aww 17:56:30 doesn't display 17:56:39 ¨V is the most metal of all letters, though 17:56:46 ehird: what is it?> 17:56:56 SimonRC: V with an umlaut 17:57:07 you get the REALLY METAL u-with-umlaut 17:57:08 plus 17:57:11 the REALLY METAL u->v 17:57:16 ¨V = the metalest of all characters 17:57:24 um, combining characters go after don't they? 17:57:32 u->v is not really metal. i refuse to believe this proclamation. 17:57:38 v¨ 17:57:41 nope. 17:57:46 i mean, i think they should 17:57:52 but it dinnae work 17:57:56 SimonRC: os x lets me do ¨-then-a to get ä 17:58:02 so I was following with that 17:58:13 psygnisfive: here, one citation: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=kvlt 17:58:24 [[Deriving from the word "cult", kvlt is spelled like it is in order to create a medieval vibe. 17:58:24 This is because it is used to speak positively of a metal band (particularly of the death/black metal variety) for their cult underground status. Is also applied the same way as tr00]] 17:58:24 well if metal uses umlaut to be quasi-nazi, they could clearly use V to be quasi-fascist 17:58:24 see 17:58:25 very metal. 17:58:26 -!- Mony has quit ("Ne regrettons pas le passé, ne nous préoccupons pas de l'avenir : le sage vit dans le présent."). 17:58:34 v̈ 17:58:38 there you go 17:58:47 psygnisfive: now make it uppercase 17:59:09 ehird: that's when typing. In unicode, the combining codepoint comes after 17:59:10 V̈ 17:59:12 fuck that's metal. 17:59:15 SimonRC: yah 17:59:23 SimonRC: but I was typing it ¨-then-V 17:59:24 :-P 17:59:26 KV̈LT 18:00:27 "The Berlin Interpretation" sounds much more significant than it actually is. 18:01:00 also, no:kvalt = strangled, suffocated 18:01:22 KV̈LT KV̈LT KV̈LT KV̈LT KV̈LT KV̈LT KV̈LT KV̈LT KV̈LT KV̈LT KV̈LT 18:01:22 the berlin interpretation? 18:01:23 sounds like a good band name actually 18:01:28 psygnisfive: yeah 18:01:34 whatsit? 18:01:37 also The Berlin Interpretation sounds like an awesome band name 18:01:41 it does 18:01:43 an attempt to define what a Roguelike game is 18:01:56 oh 18:02:07 "boring" 18:02:09 THE BERLIN INTERPRETATION 18:02:17 decided at the International Roguelike Development Conference 2008 18:02:27 The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretat 18:02:28 you should start a band 18:02:29 call it 18:02:33 The Berlin Interpretation 18:02:41 psygnisfive: no, i called it first. after he did 18:02:41 qed 18:02:41 and then 18:02:46 as you're playing 18:02:56 you have to approve new styles and stuff 18:03:04 no... i have an idea 18:03:09 and the song evolves by consensus 18:03:22 sort of like jazz improvisation, but by committee 18:03:26 The Berlin Interpretation should make their songs by writing a program to process a randomly generated rougelike's map 18:03:32 and turning it into a musical blueprint 18:06:42 * SimonRC goes away, but irssi is still listening. 18:07:14 Hmm, we need a SimCity-like roguelike. 18:07:29 i wanna code a simple rougelike sometime 18:07:41 ihope: Dwarf Fortress? 18:07:56 ehird: there is already a "The Rougelike" (sic) 18:08:03 I will now look up Dwarf Fortress, read about it, and say "Not at all." 18:08:03 It's about wikipedia 18:08:14 [[A roguelike game written mostly in Common Lisp, and the first version was written in 7 days. 18:08:15 The game takes a satirical approach at Wikipedia. Your character is a "rouge" admin, and you must commit as many outrageous actions as possible before you'll get forced out of Wikipedia. For each such action you'll get Rouge points. You also have Karma points, which are given for good actions and subtracted for bad actions.]] 18:08:15 ha 18:08:35 * SimonRC goes away, but irssi is still listening. 18:09:28 Probably very much like Dwarf Fortress. 18:10:06 ihope: You're meant to say "Not at all" 18:11:04 ehird: sorry, but my opinion of the game changed when I learned what it is. 18:12:21 Being able to change your mind is a sign of maturity. Not understanding others' maturity is a sign of immaturity. Therefore, I am more mature than you. :-P 18:14:00 I will now look up Dwarf Fortress, read about it, and say "Not at all." 18:14:08 ihope: Not keeping promises is a sign of immaturity. :-P{ 18:14:45 Pointing out others' immaturity is a sign of immaturity. Therefore, I'm still more mature than you. 18:14:58 ihope: But you pointed out my immaturity first, thus making you immature. 18:15:28 * oerjan proves his maturity by swatting both ihope and ehird ---## 18:15:35 * ehird feels swatted 18:15:45 STOP QUARRELING YOU KIDS 18:15:46 I nominate ihope for Grand Swatter 18:15:58 * oerjan hides the swatter again 18:16:02 How long's the nomination period? 18:16:10 ihope: 60 seconds 18:16:14 seconded 18:16:14 I vote ihope 18:16:21 I also vote ihope. 18:16:30 Tick tock tick tock 18:16:32 Wait, there are no other contenders, so you can just install me. 18:16:38 I declare an emergency and cancel the vote, due to terrorist threats 18:16:46 I swat oerjan. 18:16:47 ihope: Oh. I install ihope as Grand Swatter. 18:16:58 you don't have a swatter 18:16:59 oerjan: emergency sessions don't stop the iadop 18:17:06 oerjan: and you'll notice yours has disappeared 18:17:10 Now I swat oerjan. 18:17:10 as you are no longer Grand Swatter 18:17:11 what's an iadop 18:17:19 oerjan: agora office 18:17:22 International... something 18:17:24 An International Associate Director of Personnel, isn't it? 18:17:26 Handles the elections of other offices. 18:17:28 ihope: Yes. 18:17:31 http://www.flickr.com/explore/panda 18:17:35 Grand Swatter is by analogy to Grand Poobah. 18:17:40 Who controls the caste system. 18:17:51 You can get personnel pizzas at my school. 18:18:58 haha 18:19:05 "I hope you can get personal pizzas at my school" 18:19:26 * ihope swats psygnisfive 18:19:30 *moans* 18:19:35 you can get them at stony brook 18:19:45 I don't think the personnel pizzas contain any personnel. 18:20:01 infact, you can get them every day at the cafe outside my building 18:20:03 unfortunately, they suck 18:20:10 only _ex-personnel_ 18:20:26 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:21:10 my school cooks live personnel into their pizzas 18:21:33 you can feel them wiggling and squirming as you swallow them 18:21:51 I totally failed to parsed that first sentence 18:22:00 very tiny personnel or very big pizzas? 18:22:00 Are they animal or vegetable people? 18:22:01 (and failed to grammared) 18:22:05 oh, fucking wonderful. one of those rickroll sites that resize your browser and bat it around the screen. 18:22:09 how hilarious. 18:22:17 ha. 18:22:18 ha. 18:22:19 ha. 18:22:20 I hear that you can slice up vegetables and they'll still be alive. 18:22:26 this is true 18:22:27 Also, lol. 18:22:39 ive been tempted to swallow a fish live. :o 18:22:44 a small one 18:22:45 totally the most hilarious thing ever guys right 18:22:47 like.. a goldfish or something 18:22:51 right 18:22:56 i agree ehird 18:22:59 highlarious 18:23:02 Roflolmgz. 18:23:03 yea 18:23:04 its like 18:23:07 on the scale of hilarious 18:23:10 it's 2006/10 18:23:18 fuckin' a 18:23:23 ah before the last decadence 18:23:32 "fuckin' a" is a very long island thing to say 18:23:44 It has a z-score of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,etc,000,000. 18:23:49 ehird is british afaik 18:23:53 i am 18:23:55 he is 18:24:01 * ihope walks away, chanting BBBBBBBBBBBBBB 18:26:10 shouldn't that be BRBRBRBRBRB 18:28:02 No. 18:28:44 * ihope does a Google search for 'esoteric bbbbbbbbbbbbbb' 18:29:15 Now taking bets on how many results I got. 18:29:19 0 18:29:24 hmm 18:29:25 actually 18:29:26 14 18:29:27 about 23 18:30:42 not one relevant 18:30:48 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 18:30:53 ihope: who was right 18:31:02 ok _maybe_ the first 18:31:26 ehird is disqualified as he clearly googled himself before betting 18:31:34 i didn't 18:32:23 *by himself 18:53:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:01:03 -!- LinuS has joined. 19:59:53 -!- kt3k has quit ("CHOCOA"). 20:12:02 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:13:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 20:14:08 -!- hakware has joined. 20:15:04 -!- hakware has changed nick to ENKI-][. 21:17:43 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 21:17:43 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:31:17 -!- lilja has quit ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'"). 21:42:47 -!- moozilla has quit (Connection timed out). 21:49:52 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:06:48 Huh is there really no way to translate "lagom" to a single English word 22:06:57 weird 22:07:21 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 22:08:19 that's like the most well-known untranslatable swedish word though 22:08:39 olsner, well Norwegian apparently has it... 22:08:52 and I guess maybe Danish 22:09:02 but apart from that seems no one else does 22:09:04 weird 22:09:19 olsner, after all it is such a useful word 22:09:23 um 22:09:25 what does it mean 22:09:34 ehird, well... That is hard to describe 22:09:52 :D 22:09:53 like "average, sufficient" but with a positive meaning. Like "the golden mean" or such 22:10:00 ah 22:10:10 ehird, but that is inexact too 22:10:19 guys 22:10:20 AnMaster: how about 'just right'? 22:10:21 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagom (!) 22:10:22 as two words 22:10:28 ehird, hm not exactly no 22:10:35 but kind of close 22:10:59 post correspondence problem 22:10:59 I think the "Other languages" there is incorrect 22:11:02 why is it undecidable? 22:11:09 "passeli" sounds like Finish to me 22:11:11 not Norwegian 22:11:19 it seems decidable in at most N! time 22:11:20 not 100% sure thougj 22:11:22 though* 22:11:33 psygnisfive, doesn't wikipedia have some page about it? 22:11:41 I guess 'passeli' ~= 'passlig' or something in swedish 22:11:42 I'm pretty sure I read that before 22:11:49 AnMaster: [[Often used as answer to the question "how are you?".]] 22:11:51 olsner, well hm 22:11:54 "How are you?" "Just right" 22:11:54 yeah but it doesnt make any sense that its undecidable 22:11:57 would seem to make sense 22:12:02 ehird, lagom can't be used like that 22:12:12 AnMaster: well in norweigan it can 22:12:14 says wp 22:12:19 i mean, you have a finite number of pairs and you can only use one pair once, right? 22:12:37 err 22:12:58 oh no you cant 22:13:02 you can use them more than once 22:13:09 ok nevermind i misread the description of the problem 22:14:24 ehird, It would sound bloody strange to use it for "How are you?". The standard answer is like in English 22:14:31 AnMaster: "Lagom" ("lagum, lugum") also exists in Norwegian and is accepted in both Bokmål and Nynorsk. The connotations in Norwegian, however, are somewhat different from Swedish. In Norwegian the word has synonyms as "fitting, suitable, comfortable, nice, decent, well built/proportioned". While some synonyms are somewhat similar in meaning (e.g. "suitable" and "reasonable", "fitting" and "in balance"), many present in Swedish don't seem to exist in Norwegia 22:14:37 ("well, how are you") 22:14:37 when did that get cut off 22:14:58 "to exist in Norwegi" 22:15:11 an and vice versa. A closer equivalent in terms of denotation/connotation is the Norwegian word "passe" ("passende, passelig", see Jante Law), which translates more or less as "fitting, adequate, suitable" in English. The concept of 'lagom' is similar to Russian expression 'normal'no' (нормально, literally normally, note that 'normality' doesn't mean being too good or too rich), which indicates sufficient and sustainable state of, e.g., one's liveliho 22:15:15 did that get through 22:15:15 " one's livelih" 22:15:18 ehird, if you're gonna talk about languages, you might want to come over to #isharia on sorcery.net 22:15:22 ood. Often used as answer to the question "how are you?". 22:15:32 psygnisfive: i'm just copypasting from wikipedia 22:15:33 lots of people i think would enjoy talking about these things with you guys 22:15:36 ehird, get a client that splits :P 22:15:42 AnMaster: laaaazy 22:16:08 but fine, random channels are cool to me 22:16:20 speaking of which why did I leave #vjn? 22:16:30 swedish people talking in broken english like 'pretty an cool' 22:16:33 and going okokokokoko all the time 22:16:37 whats not to like 22:16:37 er 22:16:38 finnish 22:16:41 ehird, it wouldn't work to answer "How are you" in Swedish, that was all I was saying 22:16:42 please don't smite me for that typo oklopol 22:16:51 swedish people talking in broken english like 'pretty an cool' <-- err no? 22:16:57 AnMaster: i said finnish 22:17:01 and that's what people do in #vjn 22:17:05 'kinda an cool thing :)' 22:17:06 ah 22:17:10 ah 22:17:11 right 22:17:13 i have a suspicion it is on purpose. 22:17:48 psygnisfive: oh this is gold, irc.sorcery.net forward me to NOMAD.SORCERY.NET 22:17:50 too perfect 22:17:52 ehird, you mean to make others believe they aren't as good at English thus tricking their opponent? 22:17:54 or what? 22:17:59 AnMaster: i just think they're batshit insane 22:18:01 hahahahaha 22:18:02 ehird :) 22:18:06 ehird, haha 22:18:36 ehird, what was the operations of a nomad now again? 22:18:38 i mean that seals the deal doesnt it? 22:18:40 i can never leave now 22:18:47 AnMaster: i'd have to look it up in the logs 22:18:58 ehird, right then how do they differ from monads? 22:19:07 apart from spelling 22:19:09 AnMaster: I turned 'a' into 'm a' and 'm a' into 'a' 22:19:14 making them entirely useless :P 22:19:29 ehird, eh? 22:19:31 m a? 22:19:37 AnMaster: in the type signatures 22:19:48 ehird, I don't yet know haskell :P 22:19:58 AnMaster: you asked 22:20:02 ehird, right then how do they differ from monads? 22:20:10 ehird, right. I expected something understandable 22:20:16 pfffffffffffffffffffft 22:20:17 me 22:20:19 understandable 22:20:20 as IF 22:20:25 ehird, btw is there any good online resource for learning haskell? 22:20:25 :) 22:20:30 AnMaster: yah. yaht 22:20:35 * AnMaster googles 22:20:42 AnMaster: 22:20:43 http://www.cs.utah.edu/~hal/docs/daume02yaht.pdf 22:20:47 or 22:20:47 http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/YAHT 22:20:49 pick your poison 22:21:02 why did you say poison? 22:21:05 once you've read that and turned into a phd-holding, banana eating computer scientist 22:21:08 read http://www.realworldhaskell.org/ 22:21:13 to learn how to actually write real programs 22:21:15 AnMaster: its an idiom 22:21:18 Don't do it AnMaster! 22:21:22 Come to Scheme! 22:21:27 Love the parenthesis! 22:21:31 scheeeeeeeeeeeeme 22:21:38 Slereah_, I do like many of the ideas with scheme 22:21:38 Slereah_: Purely functional BITCH 22:21:39 but 22:21:52 until I can write *portable* *non trivial* scheme programs 22:21:55 ... 22:22:05 and everyone seem to dislike r6rs 22:22:10 ehird : Haskell isn't purely functional 22:22:14 Slereah_: Yes it is. 22:22:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomad_(disambiguation) 22:22:29 AnMaster: Well... Haskell programs aren't too portable either 22:22:32 see the last entry 22:22:33 GHC extensions are really useful, mostly. 22:22:38 nomads! 22:22:46 Asztal: hahah 22:22:47 ehird, hm But I assume it is possible to write portable ones? 22:22:48 no nads 22:22:49 someone with my sense of humour! 22:22:53 AnMaster: Yeah... but... not very desirable 22:22:57 ehird, also what about REPL? does Haskell have that 22:23:00 it is very very useful 22:23:02 when programming 22:23:03 yes... 22:23:03 "For Haskell Nomads, see Monad (functional programming)." 22:23:04 ghci 22:23:05 ehird 22:23:06 or hugs 22:23:06 but 22:23:07 did you do that? 22:23:07 use ghc 22:23:08 not hugs 22:23:09 psygnisfive: no 22:23:21 uh huh 22:23:25 ouch 22:23:34 psygnisfive, check page history 22:23:39 i didnt add it 22:23:44 to find who 22:23:49 i am 22:23:53 ehird, indeed, I was just wondering who it could have been 22:23:55 also, http://sovietrussia.org/code/src/11983479293370831.jpg 22:24:10 Asztal: Lmao. 22:24:16 it was /prog/ from 4chan :( 22:24:19 Today is Soviet Sunday 22:24:37 Does /prog/ exist? 22:24:37 um 22:24:41 Slereah_: yes 22:24:42 I can't remember such a thing 22:24:52 There's /g/ 22:25:05 91.76.120.112! 22:26:47 blergh out of paper 22:26:58 so can't print that tutorial now 22:27:03 anyway 192 pages 22:27:04 way too much 22:27:11 will read on screen sigh 22:29:31 ehird, anyway don't me expect it to read it right now, but thanks a lot for that link 22:29:44 will be hugely useful 22:29:55 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:33:41 High on my list to learn of languages: Scheme (started, I understand the basics, but call/cc and macros cause headache still), Haskell, Ocaml 22:33:44 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 22:33:51 ehird, anything you object to in that? :) 22:34:04 (also I need to code more scheme to really learn it) 22:34:15 AnMaster: call/cc is fun 22:34:28 ehird, sure, but it is hard to think about 22:34:40 at least to begin with 22:35:53 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 22:36:03 *sigh* 22:36:06 continually, this happens 22:36:38 i inevitably forget im using mibbit and try to close a tab and end up closing the whole app 22:36:40 >.< 22:36:56 psygnisfive, why use that thing then? 22:37:02 what is wrong with a real client 22:37:13 my school blocks all message-related stuff from a proper IRC app 22:37:18 ah 22:37:19 so i can log onto a server 22:37:20 join rooms 22:37:21 and so on 22:37:24 but i cant send messages 22:37:25 huh 22:37:32 psygnisfive, that is bloody strange 22:37:34 and i have no clue how to get around it 22:37:38 very strange blocking 22:37:42 why not just block the port 22:37:43 very strange indeed 22:37:49 i figure they do 22:38:05 psygnisfive, tunneling? ssl? 22:38:05 i just am guessing that server connection stuff is not the same as messaging stuff 22:38:10 freenode doesn't have ssl 22:38:14 psygnisfive, err it is 22:38:15 if i knew how to do those things i'd try them. 22:38:20 JOIN #channel 22:38:25 PRIVMSG #channel :message 22:38:28 what? 22:38:31 examples 22:38:35 of irc protocol 22:38:41 right but i mean tunnelling 22:38:45 i dont know how to do tunneling 22:38:50 psygnisfive, to computer at home 22:38:55 ssh to your computer at home 22:39:07 then use some console client there 22:39:25 ooh yes i can do that im sure 22:39:31 i have my mac mini running right now in fact 22:39:53 psygnisfive, if you remembered to open the port 22:39:54 and such 22:39:57 well 22:40:06 i can connect to it any time i need so long as its on 22:40:13 psygnisfive, what about firewalls 22:40:18 and is ssh really running 22:40:18 i have ichat set up to autoaccept screensharing from me :p 22:40:19 and so on 22:40:27 err 22:40:29 whatever 22:40:30 i just need to figure out the tunneling thing 22:40:39 psygnisfive, ssh command line option 22:40:41 for tunneling 22:40:48 read man page :) 22:40:51 :P 22:40:53 it lets you forward some ports 22:42:19 ehird, a question about ghci 22:42:30 what. 22:42:36 can it do everything that haskell code written in a file can? 22:42:38 like in LISP 22:42:42 or schem 22:42:42 no 22:42:44 well 22:42:45 yes 22:42:48 but not the same syntax 22:42:53 AnMaster: everything in a REPL is in a do block 22:42:56 do { ... } 22:43:01 thats why 'let x = y' instead of 'x = y' 22:43:04 can you define data types too? 22:43:06 also things like import is ':module' 22:43:09 Asztal: no 22:43:10 ah so it is more like erlang's REPL then, some stuff have special syntax 22:43:50 while the scheme REPL seems to be completely equivalent to a scheme file 22:43:55 in syntax and capability 22:44:01 and that is a feature I really really like 22:44:34 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:45:56 AnMaster: haskell doesnt work like that. 22:46:16 if it was file-based, you couldn't do anything but import, and define 22:46:27 do { ... } is what lets you use IO stuff and such 22:46:32 hm 22:46:35 ok ssh is on :D 22:46:40 now to just figure out port forwarding 22:46:46 psygnisfive, man page or google 22:47:12 will do 22:48:19 what port is SSH? 22:49:11 ah 22:49:11 22 22:51:06 alright 22:51:08 SSHed in 22:51:09 :D 22:51:27 thank you, anmaster. if this works, i'll .. uh .. give you free blowjobs for life. or something. 22:51:45 psygnisfive, I'm not homosexual 22:52:02 psygnisfive, anyway you need to *give a command line option when you ssh* 22:52:04 as I said 22:52:06 AnMaster: the first step is admitting you have a problem! 22:52:23 psygnisfive, I don't remember the exact syntax. I rarely use it 22:52:32 but I have used it a few times 22:52:37 ehird, ? 22:52:55 ok. so i have to SSH in USING port forwarding in the ssh command? 22:53:07 also, ehird: how do you start applications in terminal? 22:53:15 open -a Appname 22:53:21 psygnisfive, iirc you did something like: ssh user@host -A 7777 -B foo:12387 22:53:22 open file 22:53:25 open -a Appname file 22:53:27 don't remember names for A and B 22:53:39 L was one maybe 22:53:51 -L [bind_address:]port:host:hostport 22:53:54 ahh ok. open. 22:53:55 psygnisfive, from man page :) 22:54:04 i was trying run 22:54:06 psygnisfive, how hard was that! 22:54:08 i should learn bash 22:54:19 psygnisfive, open isn't bash, it is Mac OS X specific program 22:54:26 it is not universal in any way 22:54:26 thank you anmaster, i wasnt asking for the precise command :P 22:54:42 i was asking ehird about running a program for separate reasons 22:54:56 psygnisfive, if you think "open" is bash then you are wrong :P 22:54:57 also 22:55:00 it is easy to run 22:55:02 you just type 22:55:05 HE DIDN'T THINK THT 22:55:05 /bin/programname 22:55:06 fsdfl;ksdf;sdfl 22:55:06 dfg 22:55:08 ' 22:55:13 er 22:55:14 or just 22:55:15 or whatever 22:55:16 'programname' 22:55:16 yknow. 22:55:21 ehird, if it is in PATH yes 22:55:25 or ./foo 22:55:28 christ you do just stop 22:55:29 jesus 22:55:33 ehird, why does OS X need an "open"? 22:55:39 seems... odd? 22:55:46 OS X programs are not bin files 22:56:01 AnMaster: because /Applications/Foo.app/ is a directory 22:56:07 "bundles" are directories appearing as files in os x 22:56:11 so instead of unreadable tars or whatever 22:56:13 they're just dirs 22:56:18 that you can double click 22:56:19 essentially 22:56:19 unreadable tars? 22:56:22 same for tons of other things 22:56:24 ehird, no they are *.dmg 22:56:28 ... 22:56:29 AnMaster: shut up 22:56:31 that seems to be a closed format 22:56:32 ehird ehird ehird 22:56:33 stop it 22:56:37 he wont get it 22:56:38 what? why? 22:56:39 AnMaster: stupidest thing said all day 22:56:40 ::hug:: i understand you dont worry 22:56:44 *.dmg is a disk image 22:56:56 and i'm not going to continue because no matter what i say you'll find a way to blab about how terrible os x is 22:56:59 ehird, 1) tar is for installation archive, 2) dmg is for installation archive 22:56:59 so its completely unproductive 22:57:03 so you can just stay in the dark 22:57:08 ehird, there are no tars for installed apps 22:57:11 on linux 22:57:12 kay, thanks, bye 22:57:12 or so 22:57:14 so why 22:57:16 "unreadable tars" 22:57:18 tell me why 22:57:28 AnMaster: HELLO! I BELIEVED YOU MISSED THE PART WHERE I SAID I'M NOT GOING TO TALK 22:57:38 just because you are wrong heh 22:57:40 :) 22:57:49 I love that you are such a bad looser 22:58:24 wrong? 22:58:25 no 22:58:26 and yes I know about bundles. But what has tar got to do with that? 22:58:27 nothing 22:58:29 just that talking to you is the most annoying fucking thing ever 22:58:37 because you're the most irritating person on the planet 22:58:40 tar.gz or such is more like .dmg 22:58:46 because you hate OS X in any possible way you can 22:58:49 ehird, the issue is you mentioning .tar.gz 22:58:55 AnMaster: the issue is shut the fuck up 22:59:05 ehird, what the heck has tar files got to do with anything? 22:59:13 /ignore AnMaster 22:59:17 ah, that's better 22:59:24 psygnisfive, can you explain then? 22:59:47 psygnisfive, there got to be some logic behind it 22:59:53 also following ehird's tradition 22:59:56 "passeli" sounds like Finish to me 23:00:05 ehird is there any way to send commands as another user through SSH if i havent previously set up that user as an SSH user? 23:00:07 i corrected it 23:00:08 ^echo ehird, what the heck has tar files got to do with anything? 23:00:08 ehird, what the heck has tar files got to do with anything? ehird, what the heck has tar files got to do with anything? 23:00:14 /ignore fungot 23:00:15 ehird: a former friend lives, their door had my surname written on it 23:00:17 like.. can i change the SSH prefs if im logged in as an administrator? 23:00:24 ehird, you are an hypocrite 23:00:26 ^echo ehird, you are an hypocrite 23:00:27 ehird, you are an hypocrite ehird, you are an hypocrite 23:00:30 psygnisfive: uh 23:00:30 yes 23:00:31 sudo 23:00:33 :-P 23:00:37 sudo -u user ...command... 23:00:40 oh ok 23:00:45 i did sudo user 23:00:46 -!- AnMaster has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ehird, you are an hypocrite. You did the exact same thing a few days ago. 23:00:49 i really need to learn bash :D 23:00:49 there 23:00:56 AnMaster: I know I did - and it irritated you, but its just amusing me 23:01:02 I can trivially ignore the topic. 23:01:08 optbot! 23:01:10 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ignore that rant. 23:01:17 optbot! 23:01:19 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | yes. 23:01:24 optbot is wise beyond measure 23:01:26 oerjan: ??? 23:01:41 oerjan, the issue is ehird refuse to explain himself when he said something wrong 23:01:44 oerjan, don't you agree? 23:01:51 tars have nothing to do with the issue mentioned 23:01:56 in fact bundles are a good idea 23:02:01 they are not not related to tars 23:02:02 ^echo AUM 23:02:03 AUM AUM 23:02:13 and ehird will never know I like the idea of bundles 23:02:21 since he ignore me 23:02:27 oh well 23:02:50 -!- AnMaster has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I actually think bundles are a good idea. I just don't see what they have to do with *.tar. 23:03:48 oerjan, would you please tell ehird to read topic :) I think he may change his point of view if he does 23:04:12 dobbeltmoral er dobbelt så bra som vanlig moral... 23:04:24 oerjan, I'm not sure I would agree :P 23:04:33 psygnisfive: is AnMaster whining about how immature i am 23:04:42 no I'm not 23:04:54 AnMaster: you agree with your actions :/ 23:05:08 oerjan, hm? How do you mean? 23:05:32 oh no, i just dragged myself into this mess 23:05:35 i dont know ehird 23:05:38 im not paying attention 23:05:43 psygnisfive, I'm not btw 23:05:44 * oerjan goes hiding under a rock 23:06:03 psygnisfive, I was even agreeing bundles are a good idea. 23:06:05 Oh, and "passeli" is in fact Finnish. 23:06:06 read the topic 23:06:07 AYEEH! SNAKES! 23:06:16 fizzie, you should update the wikipedia pag then :) 23:06:19 fizzie: i noticed when i googled 23:06:25 page* 23:06:28 fizzie, the one for "lagom" 23:06:29 AnMaster: i already did 23:06:32 ah right 23:06:59 haha! brilliant 23:07:00 although the g _is_ silent 23:07:02 i love you ehird 23:07:08 that's nice 23:07:21 oerjan, which g? 23:07:23 gooled? 23:07:24 wtf 23:07:39 in "passelig" 23:07:44 ah 23:07:52 "Passeli" is also a "TV-shop" advertised program for handling something accounting-related, never been quite sure what. 23:08:09 fizzie, hm 23:09:15 psygnisfive, are you too ignoring me for no reason whatsoever? 23:09:21 no 23:09:24 psygnisfive, and did you get ssh thing to work? 23:09:24 im busy trying to get this shit working 23:09:25 :P 23:09:40 In Finnish 'passeli' is a bit colloquial, though. 23:09:44 i accidentally killed my ichat connection so i had no way to control anything visually 23:09:50 so i couldn't configure my router and stuff 23:09:51 psygnisfive, well thanks, just to inform you: I like the idea of bundles. I just don't see how they are related to *.tar 23:10:11 so i had to figure out how to ssh and get it working so that i could start ichat again 23:10:13 and so on 23:10:13 fizzie: it still has more google hits than "passelig". granted, that would also include misspellings of the latter. 23:10:17 and i figured out how. :) 23:10:23 ok now to just figure out the port forwarding for IRC 23:10:27 psygnisfive, so could you enlighten me on what ehird meant with that? 23:10:56 psygnisfive, because he refuse to answer 23:11:00 i want paying attentiont to that dude 23:11:03 brb 23:11:08 psygnisfive, well. 23:11:37 psygnisfive, you owe me a favour if this works. You said that yourself :P 23:12:16 no 23:12:16 oerjan: The two first hits in Google-search "passeli" with language=Finnish are related to that program; the next two are names of shops; the fifth one is using "passeli" in the sv:lagom sense. 23:12:20 i said i'd give you blowjobs 23:12:20 :P 23:12:32 psygnisfive, something like: -L 1234:irc.freenode.net:6667 23:12:40 then connect to 1234 on localhost 23:12:44 I think that should work 23:12:46 not 100% sure 23:13:30 heh 23:14:03 psygnisfive, well do me one favour then, Ask ehird to read the topic 23:14:23 ehird anmaster wants you to read the topic. 23:14:29 i refuse 23:14:30 thanks 23:14:34 psygnisfive, it is very important 23:14:36 and 23:14:39 he will unignore me 23:14:41 if he does 23:14:42 I bet 23:14:50 ood. Often used as answer to the question "how are you?". 23:14:52 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 23:14:57 -!- psygnisf_ has left (?). 23:15:21 psygnisfive, looks like it worked ^ 23:15:24 "sånn passe" can be use for that too, although it's more negative, essentially "so so" 23:15:54 no 23:15:55 *used 23:15:58 psygnisfive, or maybe not, looks like you connected from *.edu 23:16:07 psygnisfive, so you actually didn't use the forwarded port 23:16:11 yeah, the client autoconnected 23:16:14 when i started it 23:16:43 ok so on my local machine 23:16:53 SSH into my remote machine with -L ~ ... yes? 23:16:54 psygnisfive, http://rafb.net/p/MF57LR46.html 23:16:58 from the man page 23:17:58 right 23:19:32 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 23:19:43 damn. 23:19:52 psygnisfive, what? 23:19:54 hi psygnisf_ 23:19:59 it didnt forward 23:20:04 psygnisf_, that one is connected using direct connection 23:20:11 you are connecting wrong 23:20:15 psygnisf_, try using netcat 23:20:21 to the forwarded port 23:20:29 i need to figure out how to specify the outport on this damn client 23:20:55 psygnisf_, you need to connect to *localhost* using the first argument of -L 23:21:01 so 1234 in my example 23:21:11 oh, wait 23:21:11 you don't want "irc.freenode.net" anywhere 23:21:13 in that 23:21:21 on in the server connect in the irc app? 23:21:21 ok 23:21:29 psygnisf_, in the irc app 23:21:40 you want to connect to localhost:1234 in my example 23:21:47 and for ssh something like -L 1234:irc.freenode.net:6667 23:21:57 -!- psygnis__ has joined. 23:21:59 bitches 23:22:01 HAH 23:22:03 there 23:22:09 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 23:22:11 psygnis__: Bitches don't know 'bout mah IRC forwarding 23:22:16 hahaha 23:22:19 -!- psygnis__ has changed nick to psygnisfive. 23:22:19 psygnis__, now tell ehird to really really read the topic 23:22:21 please 23:22:25 it is very important 23:23:02 psygnisf_, or just post this line: "AnMaster says he thinks bundles are a _good_ idea. He just don't see what they have to do with *.tar" 23:23:03 uh 23:23:07 psygnisf_, please 23:23:12 ehird, read topic? 23:23:14 anyway 23:23:30 now how can i get my remote machine to port forward to multiple places XD 23:23:33 i am not going to read the topic. 23:23:47 psygnisfive, just post what I said then 23:23:47 "AnMaster says he thinks bundles are a _good_ idea. He just don't see what they have to do with *.tar" 23:23:59 oerjan, thanks 23:24:11 so saying I hate everything about OS X is plain wrong 23:24:16 it does have some good ideas 23:25:01 oerjan: tell him he's pathetic for hiring slave labor to try and talk to me, please 23:25:07 and don't point out the irony in that 23:25:11 so he didn't even read it? 23:25:12 sigh 23:25:17 how silly he is now 23:25:34 i love you guys 23:25:41 you got my my IRC back 23:25:43 :) 23:25:48 * oerjan swats both ehird and AnMaster ----### 23:26:08 psygnisfive, you see that ehird is silly now? 23:26:15 oerjan, oh tell ehird he is a hypocrite then 23:26:16 * oerjan also swats psygnisfive on the suspicion he'll like it ----### 23:26:20 since he did the same just a few days ago 23:26:22 ehird's always been silly 23:26:26 * psygnisfive likes it 23:26:44 psygnisfive, you got one client too many 23:26:46 psygnisf_, 23:27:05 it'll die eventually dont worry 23:27:11 its not connected. 23:27:14 its just the server being wonky. 23:29:43 lalala 23:29:50 mimimimi 23:30:17 psygnisfive, conjecture: channel activity will go down when ehird ignores and I go to sleep 23:30:19 night all 23:30:24 night 23:30:28 ehird 23:30:31 anmaster is going to sleep 23:30:39 cool. 23:30:50 maybe 23:30:57 your highlight made me turn backl 23:31:00 back* 23:33:22 so if we keep mentioning AnMaster all night he won't get any sleep? 23:33:36 awesome 23:33:37 oerjan, wrong, I got a threshold 23:33:49 aww 23:33:58 ok so youll be up all night 23:34:00 oerjan, + a good book to read 23:34:01 until you fall asleep 23:34:03 at your computer 23:34:07 psygnisfive, no 23:34:24 I will fall asleep reading this last fantasy book on over 760 pages 23:34:25 "1001 ways of annoying teenagers" 23:34:49 oerjan, that is what ehird read obviously yeah 23:35:02 oh you're a teenager too? figures. 23:35:05 Way 1: Mention their age. Works especially well if they're 13, and live in the UK. 23:35:19 oerjan, hm ehird is yes 23:35:26 anmaster 23:35:30 what were you asking about the other day 23:35:32 oerjan, and "almost 19" doesn't really count 23:35:36 about the language thing i was talking about? 23:35:43 what were you asking for? 23:35:47 psygnisfive, the "or" one? 23:35:51 yeah 23:36:01 psygnisfive, "make a language based on it" 23:36:05 oh 23:36:05 programming language 23:36:06 eigh_teen_, nine_teen_, what's not to count about that 23:36:08 i'd like to 23:36:12 it'd be interesting 23:36:34 psygnisf_, it should also have first class functions 23:36:36 I think 23:36:43 no. 23:36:45 if possible make it functional 23:36:47 no? 23:36:52 it should have first function classes 23:36:55 im not psygnisf_! 23:36:57 im psygnisfive! 23:37:11 psygnisf_, hits firsts on psy 23:37:17 but yes, it'd have first class functions 23:37:19 so disconnect that client 23:37:25 that client IS disconnected dude 23:37:28 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Connection timed out). 23:37:32 see? 23:37:32 now it is 23:37:36 i didnt do anything just then 23:37:43 right 23:37:52 the freenode server just realized it wasn't getting a connection 23:37:57 psygnisfive, so now tab will work 23:38:00 then it is fine 23:38:03 :P 23:38:29 i wonder how a scope indicator would work tho.. 23:38:30 i mean 23:38:31 man 23:38:34 it'd be crazy 23:38:37 "first function classes" is not entirely devoid of google hits 23:38:43 oerjan, btw the book I'm reading is called "Brisinger", a name that already sounds like fantasy doesn't it 23:38:46 try singular, oerjan 23:39:00 psygnisfive: i said there were hits 23:39:12 yeah but i mean try singular 23:39:16 you'd probably get lots more 23:39:34 magic, dragon, swords, improbable geologic and climate, (who would put a forest right next to a desert like that... on the map on the inside of the cover) 23:39:39 ooh no you get less 23:39:42 which makes no sense 23:39:44 and really the areodynamics for dragons make no sense 23:39:50 well that got 10 23:39:58 since "first function class" is a subset of "first function classes" 23:40:04 as opposed to 4 23:40:13 oh oh you were doing in quotations i see 23:40:14 yeah 23:41:15 Brisinger und brisinger 23:41:25 oerjan, hm? just google 23:41:27 so 23:41:27 hm 23:41:32 lets talk about something esoteric 23:41:36 the first two books were actually quite good 23:41:41 and now I'm really heading to bed 23:41:41 i did 23:41:42 night 23:41:46 i nominate quantifier scope indicators 23:42:14 i quantify indicator scope nominations 23:42:22 jews 23:42:28 jaws 23:42:44 juice 23:42:53 joyce 23:43:00 joyce 23:43:01 omg 23:43:02 ugh 23:43:04 hate him 23:43:32 riverrun, past Eve and Adam’s, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs. 23:43:53 Three quarks for Muster Mark! 23:45:09 and that's just about what i know of Finnegan'?s Wake 23:46:28 also, jays 23:46:32 jews 23:46:47 oh noes a cycle 23:46:52 we are trapped 23:47:25 what the heck were quantifier scope indicators anyway? 23:48:03 my mague vemory tries to trigger 23:48:37 and is there a connection to delimited continuations? 23:49:04 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but you flew around and tried to hit the other guy. 23:49:17 i did NOT 23:49:26 he just blew into my path 23:49:57 Brains.. 23:50:48 Livers.. 23:51:33 That little thing at the back of the mouth which no one remembers the name of.. 23:52:05 Uvula. 23:52:09 what exactly does optbot use to generate topics? 23:52:10 Asztal: X-D 23:52:27 the famous X-D program 23:52:33 It uses a guy who's laughing because his eyes are doing something that's topologically impossible. 23:52:40 I assumed it was getting the longest common substring of recent messages, or something :) 23:52:41 ihope: how did she get in there? 23:52:42 Eyes do not intersect. 23:52:52 Asztal: nah 23:52:55 Asztal: random sentence from the entire backlog 23:52:58 oerjan: how did Uvula get into the back of the mouth? 23:53:02 from late 2002 - before optbot was put online 23:53:02 ehird: /\ 23:53:04 yeah 23:53:06 You ate her. :-( 23:53:11 oh. 23:53:11 late 2002 - early 2003 thx to fizzie 23:53:13 Brains.. 23:53:15 bye for today 23:53:21 i remember, she had none 23:53:35 * ihope Brains.es oerjan 23:54:05 yummy! 23:55:16 ah that explains why it's called uvular consonants 23:55:35 I didn't know there were such things as uvular consonants. 23:55:37 oh dear, and palate... 23:56:33 all this time i've been thinking those were just weird linguistic terms 23:56:42 but they're anatomical 23:56:53 i guess dental should have given me a clue 23:57:15 * oerjan checks what alveola means 23:57:15 DENTAL PLAN 23:58:01 um that doesn't fit, it's in the lungs? 23:59:03 So an alveolar trill is when the tongue vibrates against the lungs? 23:59:07 ah it's alveolar ridge 23:59:16 that's in the mouth 23:59:33 ihope: apparently not 2008-10-06: 00:04:16 A nasal affricate is a sneeze 00:04:44 Hmm, so that fancy voiceless alveolar lateral fricative, found in Welsh words like "Llywellyn", sounds a lot like a soft "th". 00:24:42 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:28:04 -!- moozilla has joined. 00:38:47 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 00:48:54 la 00:48:56 lalala 00:48:56 lala 00:48:58 la. 00:49:00 LA 00:49:05 ihope 00:49:09 its not a th, just fyi 00:49:43 the voiceless alveolar lateral fricative is basically just an l, without being voiced, and very h-like 00:50:17 its almost lisp-ish if you're not familiar with it. 00:52:14 well not really lisp-ish 00:52:15 rather 00:52:21 that other speech impediment 00:52:52 the one that super nerds have 00:53:44 tho thats more palatal 01:00:44 psygnisfive: that's why I said it's a lot like a "th" rather than being one. 01:04:04 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 02:29:26 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:08:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 03:50:13 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:58:57 -!- metazilla has joined. 03:59:49 -!- CO2Games has joined. 04:07:48 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:55:08 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 05:23:08 -!- CO2Games has quit ("And I invented doors, no joke!"). 05:49:04 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Abelboobied indeed.. 06:17:10 -!- CO2Games has joined. 06:26:40 idea! 06:26:48 treat types as sets. 06:27:00 consisting of all instances of that type. 06:27:16 not in a way that you can iterate over them, necessarily 06:31:01 but in that you can test membership in a type just like you'd test membership in a set 06:39:45 What if they're infinite! 06:40:12 Here's an idea 06:40:23 a language based around halloween commands 06:41:25 * Slereah_ tries to make a boo pun 06:43:48 -!- slereah has joined. 06:43:49 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:46:08 No wait I've got a better idea 06:46:19 A language based around a couldron 06:47:27 EYE OF A NEWT 06:47:49 with 4 stacks 06:47:57 each holds ingredients 06:48:16 a package which holds the ingredients in order as in the header 06:48:22 popped like a stack 06:48:28 something like chef? 06:48:34 chef? 06:48:35 hmmm 06:48:40 I wanna see 06:48:52 http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/chef.html 06:49:18 oh hell no 06:49:40 I'm thinking something better 06:49:45 heh. 06:50:22 oh btw 06:50:31 if you're going to name it Cauldron, be sure to spell it right :) 06:50:49 pfft 06:50:53 but I'm intrigued. 06:51:11 need a purpose for the pot though 06:51:14 as I've been fond of the premise of chef 06:51:25 execution notwithstanding 06:52:04 See, I'm thinking two stacks and two shelves 06:52:14 and then a readonly stack called the box 06:52:36 one stack will just be general purpose 06:52:50 but the other will be special 06:53:03 pushing to it outputs to the user, popping inputs from the user 06:53:33 And the end result is whatever is in the pot 06:54:20 And it could be OS-specific 06:54:50 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 06:54:59 like on posix systems, the pot could start out empty and cold, and on windows it could be greasy and disgusting 06:55:26 and if the pot ever goes over 255 on posix, ingredients that go into it evaporate 06:55:39 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:55:40 and it goes back to 255 06:55:50 and then you can drain the pot too 06:56:01 but on windows before you start you have to clean the pot 06:56:14 with lots of soap 06:56:21 then you need to rinse the shit out of it 06:56:29 so you don't get sick from the soap 06:56:51 and if you don't rinse it enough, you get sick at the end of the program and get an access violation 06:57:08 then on both systems you have to make sure the water is clean 06:57:28 so you have to either use a filter, investigate, or just hope you don't vomit 06:58:45 and you always have to wash out the pot after draining unless you want oil from the previous contents 06:58:50 and rinse it 06:58:52 a lot 06:59:17 and then you can cause yourself to vomit 06:59:50 if you use your fist theirs a chance that you choke instead and that deletes the executable 07:00:03 and if you use a fork you could stab yourself 07:00:16 and if you use a knife you will always stab yourself 07:00:24 and if you use a spoon you always choke 07:00:41 and if you use a spork, you will either stab yourself or choke 07:00:51 so I guess you can overengineer a language to death 07:01:17 and if you use a foot you will always explode and that deletes the entire directory of the program 07:01:23 err 07:01:37 I mean c4 with an electrical timer in it 07:02:04 bedtime 07:02:05 nite 07:02:27 me tired too 07:02:30 later 07:02:33 -!- CO2Games has quit ("And I invented doors, no joke!"). 07:03:43 slereah: what if they're infinite? 07:07:47 -!- slereah has joined. 07:08:22 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 07:08:56 slereah: what if they're infinite? 07:21:17 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:30:00 -!- mtve has joined. 07:41:58 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 07:49:40 ehird: don't worry i typo "finnish" to "swedish" all the time. 07:49:52 slereah: what if they're infinite? 07:53:15 also, i was gonna ask you, ehird, whether you changed your nick back to tusho for a while some time ago, then i realized ehird is, in fact, your old nick, so, err, i think you did 07:53:25 but not back to tusho, but back to ehird 07:53:26 yes 07:53:27 now 07:53:28 i 07:53:29 go 07:53:29 -> 07:55:41 haha 07:55:43 oklopol 07:55:43 :D 07:55:44 <# 07:55:46 <3 07:55:48 night 07:55:50 :p 07:55:56 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to psygnisfive[slee. 07:56:05 -!- psygnisfive[slee has changed nick to p5[sleep]. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:11:40 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (SendQ exceeded). 09:12:20 hi optbot! 09:12:20 ais523: they're actually disjoint, i was confused by no ^$ or similar around k and s 09:17:06 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 09:17:18 hi oklopol 09:17:20 I can't stay long 09:17:31 but I'll be back considerably later today (my time) 09:21:08 muture has once again been postponed a bit, since i read pretty much all my free time 09:21:18 ah, ok 09:21:29 also, I like the topic 09:21:42 the ideas i had for it are basically automation of dynamic programming 09:22:09 well 09:22:14 one of the ideas i mean 09:22:59 but that's basically just having a memoization structure where you memoize based on input and whether you minimize or maximize, or just take the result 09:24:21 so if you want to minimize f(n) = f(n-1) | f(n-2), you would check the memoization table for (MIN,f,n-1) and (MIN,f,n2), or just evaluate those if they aren't found, and then take the smaller one as the global minimum 09:24:52 maybe you could do memoization by name? 09:25:12 what do you mean? 09:25:15 that sounds much like what you're doing 09:25:31 I mean, you memoize instructions which are more complicated than just functions 09:25:38 so you memoize min(f(n-1)) 09:25:43 for instance 09:25:51 ("f(n-1) | f(n-2)" means to take, nondeterministically, either of these evaluations) 09:25:57 yes, I understand 09:26:05 yeah, that's why the parens 09:26:16 hmm 09:26:31 i still don't know what you mean by memoization by name 09:26:46 well, call-by-name is a sort of imperative version of laziness 09:26:59 instead of passing the function an argument, you tell it what the argument looks like 09:27:04 you can take this to extremes, though 09:27:36 but i will actually need the value that's gotten when the memoization is done 09:27:36 as an example, imagine a simple imperative language with an eval statement 09:27:40 i mean, the dememoization 09:27:54 and instead of writing f(g(x)); sub f(y) {return y;} 09:28:07 you write f("g(x)"); sub f(y) {return eval(y);} 09:28:14 yes 09:28:18 so you memoise by the instructions you're passing around 09:29:01 where's the memoization in that? i'm still missing your point i'm afraid 09:29:03 so in this case you optimise min(f(n)) where f(n) = f(n-1) | f(n-2) into fmin(n) where fmin(n) = min(fmin(n-1), fmin(n-2)) 09:29:04 effectivel 09:29:08 *effectively 09:29:11 and memoize fmin 09:29:19 but you just write it as memoisation of min(f(x)) 09:29:29 which you can memoise as if it were a function 09:29:50 I think that was your original point, though 09:29:52 in which case, I agree 09:30:21 oh, you mean that the actual min(f(n)) could be memoized, f(n) unevaluated 09:30:26 yes 09:30:31 that's exactly what i'm doing, yes :P 09:30:53 well, with that particular definition of f it all ends up equal to min(f(0),f(1)) or whatever your base cases are 09:31:05 but that's deliberately missing the point... 09:31:18 f is very useless, sure 09:32:26 but you could have stuff like f(n) = ( f(n - 1) | f(n - 3) + 1 | f(n - 5) + 3 ) + ( f(n-2) - 1 | f (n-4) * 1.1 ) 09:32:36 and you could minimize that 09:32:47 yes, agreed 09:33:30 hmm... muture is a bit of a hyper-Prolog, but actually implementable 09:33:30 are you going to use all this optimisation stuff to implement program flow like loops too? 09:33:39 hmm 09:33:49 i haven't thought much about program flow tbh 09:34:07 i'm aiming for somewhat domain specific a language 09:34:14 you cannot define new types 09:34:25 well, you don't really need them 09:34:28 and it's even discouraged to define new functions, except when you're minimizing them. 09:34:41 everything is done with list operations 09:34:57 which are quite interesting, and eso 09:35:25 stuff like /list == 5, which tests "for all x in list: x == 5" 09:35:42 and \list == 5 for "for at least one x in list: x == 5" 09:36:08 well, if you implement lists and tuples of arbitrary types 09:36:10 then you basically have a sufficiently rich type system anyway for a declarative language 09:36:16 and then explicit quantification, doing this for lists representing trees or graphs, and // and \\ for doing this for the second level of a nested list, etc 09:36:32 you're going to run out of chars for comments at this rate 09:36:40 i only have dynamically typed lists, and integers 09:36:54 ok 09:36:59 so lists and tuples are the same type? 09:37:07 i wasn't gonna use // for comments anyway 09:37:11 yes. 09:37:53 i don't see a need for tuples really 09:38:04 integers + links between them, that's all i need 09:38:54 hey 09:39:02 an interesting object btw 09:39:12 i have these infinite numbers, kinda 09:39:19 that are greater than any integer 09:39:28 ah, ok 09:39:38 so when you maximize, and you get a number like that, you can ignore any number with a smaller amount of infinities 09:39:40 are these the same as the mathematical infinities, or a new okloset of numbers? 09:40:00 of course, not mathematical infinites, just numbers that are greater than numbers that aren't pseudo-infinite 09:40:03 hmm... you could have numbers in base infinity 09:40:06 yes. 09:40:08 that's the idea 09:40:11 kinda like haskell tuples 09:40:24 so 4:0:0 > 3:99999999999999999999999999:999999999999999999999999999999 09:40:31 yep 09:40:32 and each of the parts is bignums, and you can have as many as you like 09:40:44 yes, can you see the use of those? 09:41:35 if you're maximizing a quantity, you can kinda create a goal that's strictly higher up than anything one could've achieved without reaching the goal, by giving a pseudo-infinite point for it 09:41:44 well, there are several uses 09:41:50 it would be good in the chess program I wrote once, for instance 09:42:02 (btw Muture should create brilliantly short programs for playing games like chess) 09:42:08 also, for error conditions, too 09:42:33 yes, the list operations should be extensive enough to make most rules trivial to express 09:42:44 and the rest is basically creating the local heuristics 09:42:52 and maximizing or minimizing 09:43:06 huh, error conditions? 09:43:53 if something goes wrong 09:43:58 the pseudo-infinities are there because otherwise you end up thinking "okay, if i can get a checkmate here, then i definitely should do it... so, what is the maximum sum the other heuristics can give, let's calculate..." 09:44:10 then setting a lexicogrpahically high or low value could either report or hide the error 09:44:19 as in, -1:0 if you want paths that error to be ignored 09:44:22 ah 09:44:27 and 1:0 if you want parhs that error to always be reported 09:44:30 for a maximisation 09:45:48 i'm also thinking you could give the program a hint of what maximum is "good enough", this way you could use something like you just explained, and also, you could tell it 0 is the least amount of errors there can be in a result or something 09:46:04 yes 09:46:16 well, hinting is really easy 09:46:17 because sometimes it may not be trivial to see all functions that constitute the sum that is to be minimized always give nonnegative results 09:46:24 min(1:0 | max(f(x))) 09:46:43 well, I need a for-all-x in there 09:46:46 but you know what I mean 09:47:05 /x 09:47:14 umm just \x there actually 09:47:20 and probably I've got the syntax for min and max wrong 09:48:04 i'm not sure what max(f(/x)) means, the distinction of / and \ makes sense only for checking whether "all", or "some", of a list satisfy a predicate 09:48:37 you'll have to post a partial spec some time so I can look at it 09:48:44 ais523, hi! 09:48:57 hi AnMaster 09:49:02 except that I'm going in about 10 mins 09:49:04 maybe less 09:49:12 and won't be back until much later today 09:49:15 ais523, aww :/ 09:49:20 ais523, gcc-bf updates? 09:49:21 (I'm sneaking in a bit of IRC before class) 09:49:28 nothing, I'm really busy in RL 09:49:29 ais523: i see, i'll *write* a partial spec some time so you can look at it. 09:49:37 ais523, ah right 09:49:40 ah, good idea 09:49:47 ais523, Feather? 09:50:10 ais523, oh and should I learn Ocaml or Haskell first? 09:50:13 AnMaster: I really don't have time for much esoprogramming atm apart from my University project 09:50:19 I plan one of them after I finish learning scheme 09:50:23 i've only written programs in muture, no speccing has been done 09:50:26 also, learn both, but you'll probably get into Ocaml more easily 09:50:46 Haskell is very weird until you're used to it, even if you know how functional programming works 09:50:58 ais523, hm thanks 09:51:00 but once you're used to it you'll realise everything else is a special case of Haskell, more or less 09:51:11 * ais523 ponders a Haskell to Underload compiler 09:51:15 I think it's possible 09:51:24 ais523, oh and, call/cc is an abbreviation headache obviously 09:51:37 well, the official name is call-with-current-continuation 09:51:40 but that takes too long to type 09:51:53 maybe it should just be called c, like in Unlambda and Underlambda 09:51:59 ais523, well that is not true really, in reality it means "headache" 09:51:59 ;P 09:52:00 IMO 09:52:13 ais523: abbreviation *for* headache, i think 09:52:19 ah, ok 09:52:22 oklopol, yes 09:52:27 I missed for it seems 09:52:28 bah 09:52:38 ais523: missed it, i think 09:52:40 well, it's basically just a nonlocal goto, except that it stores the call and data stacks in the continuation 09:52:50 because you clearly cannot read AnMaster's mind when it comes to "for" 09:52:51 ais523, I understand the theory 09:52:52 but 09:53:02 it still is hard to think about 09:53:18 macros are not as bad, but still pretty bad too 09:53:35 well, if call/cc doesn't hurt your brain, either you're doing something wrong or you're oklopol 09:53:47 but even though it hurts my brain slightly I still know how to use it 09:53:58 well hm I guess one have to learn by trying 09:54:02 and usin git 09:54:05 using* it 09:54:12 (hopefully not git) 09:54:26 AnMaster: call/cc is pretty simple if you don't return multiple times. used as a fast way to return it's just exception control without autopilot 09:54:46 oklopol: well yes, but that's boring 09:54:47 oklopol, sure but the semantics are hard too IMO 09:54:56 I plan to implement pretty much all of Feather with multireturning call/cc 09:55:36 ais523: yes, very boring, that's why it's useful to emphasize the difference 09:55:45 ais523, btw there exists some experimental lisp variant that compiles into erlang bytecode, can't find the link atm 09:55:53 well, there are two sorts of call/cc 09:55:55 but I heard some ppl talk of it in #erlang the other day 09:56:00 jumping downwards once, which is the boring case 09:56:06 and jumping upwards some time, which is more interesting 09:56:16 hm 09:56:17 and the case that causes implementors nightmares 09:56:28 you can jump down multiple times and it's just like a break; statement in C, not confusing at al 09:56:31 ais523, the first case is like longjmp more or less? 09:56:34 yes 09:56:48 jumping up is like longjmp which magically restores all the stack 09:56:52 ah 09:57:03 that got destroyed between the call/cc and the continuation being used 09:57:12 I have to go now, anyway 09:57:20 but I'll be back in 7 or 8 hours or so 09:57:22 bye 09:57:29 the main issue is the semantics of it. I mean the way it seems to replace an expression with something else... I don't know how to describe it properly 09:57:30 ais523, cya 09:58:11 AnMaster: try the unlambda page, oerjan created a system for representing it 09:58:27 well, i created the exact same system when i implemented subtle cough 09:58:28 oklopol, hm? the unlambda esowiki page? 09:58:32 but still 09:58:35 i found it useful 09:58:44 AnMaster: The Unlambda Page 09:58:47 there's just one 09:58:53 oklopol, link? 09:59:15 i would google, but i don't like clicking the browser open 09:59:20 it's so much work :-) 09:59:21 If you don't mean http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unlambda or any of the links at the bottom 09:59:32 google unlambda 09:59:39 first link, prolly 09:59:52 www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/ ? 09:59:58 that is first hit 10:00:02 next is wikipedia 10:00:48 that. 10:00:52 thanks ok 10:01:34 oklopol, any specific part of the page? Or just in general? I never really looked closely at unlambda before 10:02:10 oh well you should 10:02:13 it's a fun language :-) 10:02:22 but the continuation part, search for continuation 10:02:34 fun is a pun for functional? 10:02:39 ;) 10:02:53 hmm 10:03:02 oklopol, it *could* be 10:03:09 well it wasn't, but should've been :P 10:03:18 heh 10:03:50 but, hmm 10:03:59 the part with the continuations isn't there anymore 10:04:03 wonder if it ever were 10:04:12 perhaps i imagined it 10:04:14 http://www.madore.org/~david/computers/callcc.html <-- that was linked? 10:04:17 btw, i need to go raed now 10:04:19 may not be related 10:04:25 oklopol, cya 10:04:25 yes, i haven't looked at that 10:04:30 see ya 10:04:31 -> 10:04:58 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 10:16:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("So, how much do you love noodles?"). 11:31:19 yay, I got a 3-hour break 11:31:21 they were meant to be teaching everyone VHDL 11:31:23 but I already knew it 11:31:27 AnMaster: that's a good guide to call/cc 11:31:37 and as for Unlambda, it's probably the best functional esolang out there atm 11:31:47 most esolangs tend to imperative, as it's what people are used to 11:32:01 ais523, is VHDL hard? 11:32:08 weird but not hard 11:32:11 it's an unusual paradigm 11:32:16 hm may want to try it some day 11:32:42 it can be emulated on software, of course, but you're suppose to compile it to hardware for the best experience 11:32:54 it's not really a language you write in to start with, it's a language you compile into 11:32:57 and compile from 11:32:58 ais523, well that require resources 11:33:02 which I don't have 11:33:03 well, of course 11:33:07 software simulation is cheaper 11:33:11 yeah 11:33:32 ais523, so what language do you use for writing the stuff you compile into VHDL? 11:33:44 well, I write it directly atm 11:33:56 apparently some weird nonstandard dialect of C++ is popular though 11:34:08 not many things compile into VHDL 11:34:12 also you said unusual paradigm. How (apart from compiling to hardware)? 11:34:12 even though it's crying out for it 11:34:18 apparently the compilation is normally done by humans 11:34:25 AnMaster: it's event-driven and parallel 11:34:29 assignments never happen immediately 11:34:32 they all have time delays 11:34:45 the control flow is such that commands only run in response to a particular thing changing 11:34:50 ais523, does that mean you have to handle taking care of timing yourself or? 11:34:54 yes, more or less 11:34:58 if you write a <= b + c 11:35:07 it means "one delta after either b or c changes, set a to their sum" 11:35:20 ok... that is weird 11:35:22 where a delta is the shortest unit of time, it's infinitesimally long 11:35:39 That's not very long! 11:35:46 yes 11:36:01 if you're simulating real hardware, which VHDL is often used for, you would say a <= b + c AFTER 20 ns 11:36:02 or whatever 11:36:02 yes "short" sounds more normal to use there 11:36:15 ah 11:36:18 now that is weird 11:36:20 "infinitesimally short" doesn't make sesne though 11:36:27 *sense 11:36:31 the first one sounded somewhat like event driven GUI programming in OO 11:36:36 but the second... no 11:36:42 OOP* 11:36:58 it's a bit like event driven programming, but sufficiently different that it isn't really a helpful analogy 11:37:16 to make things more confusing, you can put blocks of imperative code in, which trigger on certain variables changing 11:37:17 (My experience of event driven programming is mainly from GTK# + C#) 11:37:26 but you're not supposed to except in certain strict circumstances 11:37:31 or the result is legal but doesn't compile 11:37:51 ais523, normally legal == compiles, except for any compiler bugs 11:37:54 but? 11:38:02 well, you can run it on an interpreter 11:38:14 generally speaking one company will write imperative VHDL 11:38:31 to say what the program should do 11:38:38 hm and? 11:38:48 and another company will compile it by hand to VHDL that compiles to hardware 11:39:05 compiling a language to itself is something I find very strange 11:39:08 yep 11:39:24 if VHDL wasn't so popular it would definitely be an esolang 11:39:58 hm yeah 11:39:59 ais523, how do you handle setjmp/longjmp in gcc-bf btw? 11:40:13 well, storing IP is easy 11:40:21 for storing stack pointer I record the literal value of the pointer 11:40:29 and the only other thing that normally needs to be stored is frame pointer 11:40:33 but I have a hardware stack of frame pointers 11:40:43 and I can deduce which one to use by looking at where the stack pointer ended up 11:40:48 so mostly it's done in "hardware" 11:40:52 err hardware stack? where did brainfuck get that? 11:41:01 I use part of the tape 11:41:05 ah right 11:41:06 as a stack 11:41:08 not really hardware 11:41:09 right 11:41:15 it's hardware from gcc's point of view 11:41:25 because it isn't mentioned anywhere in the asm 11:41:25 just hand coded bf? 11:41:29 yep 11:41:53 ais523, will this allow C++ too? And other languages supported by gcc? 11:42:08 for C++ at least you would need a few more runtime libraries I guess 11:42:11 hopefully eventually 11:42:17 the main problem with C++ atm is exception handling 11:42:20 because gcc does that weirdly 11:42:25 oh? how? 11:42:38 well, using routines which gcc compiling C doesn't use anywhere 11:42:41 so I'd have to implement them 11:42:49 it involves changing the calling conventions and everything 11:43:01 ais523, those routines would logically have no use in C 11:43:08 since C doesn't need exception handling like C++ 11:43:12 well, yes 11:43:23 but that means a C compiler needs more work to become a C++ compiler 11:43:26 even if it's based on gcc 11:43:30 thus it doesn't seem strange that the routines aren't used for C 11:43:38 ais523, gcj? 11:43:42 oh wait 11:43:48 that would need porting boehm-gc I suspect 11:43:59 gcj is likely to have similar problems to g++ 11:44:00 since boehm-gc is very platform specific (I looked at it's code) 11:44:10 and boehm-gc would probably fail, I expect 11:44:18 because pointer values are too plausible in gcc-bf 11:44:33 I mean, plausible values for things that aren't pointers 11:44:42 you could use the same technique with knowledge of data types 11:44:45 which gcj has, in theory 11:44:51 but it would be quite the porting effort 11:44:52 ais523, iirc boehm-gc is used for gcj. And I read large parts of the boehm-gc code so I know what I speak of. It needs porting for different platforms and different cpus. 11:45:00 yes 11:45:23 I was talking about reimplementing gcj to use something which wasn't boehm-gc but worked similarly 11:45:28 ah hm 11:45:32 I think it would be possible, but I also think I can't be bothered 11:45:37 indeed 11:45:40 no one cares for java 11:45:52 ais523, what about gfortran? 11:46:18 I don't know about that, haven't looked at the code 11:46:24 I doubt it would be hard, but don't know the details 11:46:24 ah 11:48:40 ais523, btw cfunge heap memory usage have gone down according to valgrind --tool=massif by almost 1 MB during the last week 11:48:49 peak is 6 MB 11:48:55 yet ps says it is much more 11:49:02 have you been trying to reduce it deliberately? 11:49:04 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | yeah I figured that like 0.1 seconds after saying it. 11:49:18 ais523, I have been trying to reduce overhead by lots of small malloc() yes 11:49:22 also, the way malloc normally works on Unices, the memory usage is equal to the highest value it's ever been 11:49:30 unless you deliberately give back the memory 11:49:36 to the OS, rather than just to malloc 11:49:48 ais523, I had around half an mb in malloc book keeping data overhead according to valgrind 11:49:51 and that needs malloc to do a huge amount of work shuffling things round so it isn't normally worth it 11:50:01 now just around 100 kb at most I think 11:50:27 ais523, I use memory pools with free list for some stuff now, with no per-object overhead 11:50:48 heh, so you're doing what malloc does, but by hand? 11:50:53 I originally developed the code for something else 11:50:55 maybe it would be worth looking at a malloc replacement 11:50:58 but I reused it for cfunge 11:51:05 there's more than one implementation of malloc around 11:51:10 ais523, I need to malloc lots of object by the same size 11:51:15 for funge space hash table 11:51:17 IIRC the Firefox people spent ages comparing different mallocs 11:51:20 to decide which one was best 11:51:37 AnMaster: and yes, seeing as you know more about the situation than malloc does you're likely to have better results 11:51:54 ais523, and I can have no object overhead 11:52:26 ais523, http://bzr.kuonet.org/cfunge/trunk/annotate/432?file_id=cfunge_mempool.c-20081005091327-4dhg0fw6swhlu950-1 11:53:19 ais523, the union trick I have fizzie to thank for 11:53:58 ais523, so what do you think? :) 11:54:04 AnMaster: I'm a bit disappointed really because cfunge has nothing to compete against 11:54:11 um what? 11:54:14 so I can't tell exactly how well these crazy tricks are doing 11:54:17 I like the result 11:54:20 but I have nothing to compare it to 11:54:26 ais523, I profiled before and after the change 11:54:29 so I don't really know how impressive or otherwise it is 11:54:36 comparing to yourself works, I suppose... 11:54:45 execution time on glibc: No significant diff 11:54:57 memory usage: around half an mb saved 11:55:15 the other half I saved before. I was allocating too much in one place 11:55:23 so I had dead memory at the end of some mallocs 11:55:32 ah, ok 11:55:35 that alone saved almost one mb 11:55:46 also it's worth knowing that different mallocs have different favourite sizes to allocate 11:55:48 for 64-bit 11:55:54 normally it's slightly less than a power of 2, though 11:57:24 ais523, well here I need 56 bytes on amd64 with 64-bit funge 11:57:44 the exact size will vary across different compile options/platforms 11:57:52 ais523, also for glibc: http://www.gnu.org/software/libtool/manual/libc/Efficiency-and-Malloc.html#Efficiency-and-Malloc 11:57:53 well that's just less than 64, but it might be not quite just less enough 11:58:13 but it's nice to have documentation about what's right for a particular platform 11:58:32 ais523, well I alloc 4096 objects here for each superblock 11:58:52 ah, that says that glibc malloc doesn't care about the power of 2 thing 11:58:58 which is also good to know 11:59:08 ais523, yes and for this size of allocations it use mmap() too 11:59:14 yes 11:59:17 I checked using the mallinfo function 11:59:19 so the OS deals with the allocation 11:59:26 which is probably the right thing to do here 11:59:32 so the memory can be given back 11:59:49 on my system I end up allocating sizeof(memorypool_data) pages 11:59:56 since page size is 4096 12:00:14 I think that at least, unless I got the units confused somewhere 12:01:13 ais523, also I don't give memory back, since I reuse any free stuff, and test runs on a varity of funge programs indicated that at no point would it be a good idea to give back memory 12:01:31 ah, ok 12:01:37 I guess for a huge self-overwriting-with-space program that could be a good idea 12:01:43 however I consider that rather contrived 12:02:18 since most such programs tend to be short ;P 12:02:55 ais523, however I believe the code is general enough to be useful elsewhere too 12:03:14 in fact I first wrote it for something else, then latter decided "this may work well for cfunge too" 12:04:06 ais523, currently on my system for a mycology run: $1 = {arena = 139264, ordblks = 6, smblks = 2, hblks = 19, hblkhd = 7122944, usmblks = 0, fsmblks = 64, uordblks = 36864, fordblks = 102400, keepcost = 100256} 12:04:08 http://www.gnu.org/software/libtool/manual/libc/Statistics-of-Malloc.html 12:04:13 for how to interpret that 12:04:17 and it was at the end 12:04:21 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:04:21 -!- dbc has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:04:29 -!- rodgort has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:04:29 -!- pikhq has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:04:32 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:04:32 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:04:34 -!- cmeme has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:04:34 -!- GregorR has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:04:36 -!- ais523 has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:04:38 -!- metazilla has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:04:43 -!- optbot has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:04:43 -!- ehird has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:04:44 -!- mtve has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:04:45 -!- SimonRC has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:04:46 sigh 12:04:46 I hate netsplits 12:05:34 splits* 12:05:41 -!- mtve has joined. 12:05:41 -!- metazilla has joined. 12:05:41 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 12:05:41 -!- dbc has joined. 12:05:41 -!- ehird has joined. 12:05:41 -!- pikhq has joined. 12:05:41 -!- optbot has joined. 12:05:41 -!- rodgort has joined. 12:05:41 -!- SimonRC has joined. 12:06:10 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 12:06:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 12:06:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:06:10 -!- GregorR has joined. 12:06:10 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:06:13 ais523, 12:06:18 what was the last I said? 12:06:22 ah, ok 12:06:23 hi ais523 12:06:24 was last from you 12:06:39 [12:01] if it's a bad idea, then no need to worry about how to do it 12:06:39 [12:01] ofc now I'll have to invent a funge program where it is, just to annoy you... 12:06:39 [12:03] hi ehird 12:06:48 I guess for a huge self-overwriting-with-space program that could be a good idea 12:06:48 however I consider that rather contrived 12:06:48 since most such programs tend to be short ;P 12:06:53 I got caught on the wrong side of a netsplit... 12:06:56 ais523, however I believe the code is general enough to be useful elsewhere too 12:06:56 in fact I first wrote it for something else, then latter decided "this may work well for cfunge too" 12:07:03 ais523, currently on my system for a mycology run: $1 = {arena = 139264, ordblks = 6, smblks = 2, hblks = 19, hblkhd = 7122944, usmblks = 0, fsmblks = 64, uordblks = 36864, fordblks = 102400, keepcost = 100256} 12:07:03 http://www.gnu.org/software/libtool/manual/libc/Statistics-of-Malloc.html 12:07:03 for how to interpret that 12:07:03 and it was at the end 12:07:45 * Ping reply from ais523: 0.87 second(s) 12:07:45 * Received a CTCP PONG from ais523 12:07:49 wrong ;P 12:07:56 AnMaster: it was a joke... 12:08:01 right 12:08:30 NOTICE :\01PING \01 12:08:31 iirc 12:08:52 probably known as "nctcp" command in client 12:09:11 AnMaster: I know how to send CTCP replies 12:09:13 I've done it by hand before 12:09:20 over netcat 12:10:37 ais523, and giving back the memory is kind of pointless, since freed memory is recycled before it tries allocating new at end 12:11:22 yes 12:13:29 If you actually were worried about malloc overhead, you could do some somewhat hacky tricks to use raw sbrk() to add pages to your pools. 12:14:04 fizzie, not really an issue with pools. The issue was when I used one malloc() per object allocated 12:14:17 with the pools I get one malloc() for each allocated pool 12:14:30 which makes a huge difference 12:15:22 fizzie, since I had something like 65536 mallocs for mycology before 12:15:27 actually a bit more 12:15:36 and that just for funge space 12:17:09 valgrind now claims that in total cfunge does 1442 malloc() calls when running mycology 12:17:19 don't have the exact count of the previous versiomn 12:17:21 version* 12:18:21 also, i was gonna ask you, ehird, whether you changed your nick back to tusho for a while some time ago, then i realized ehird is, in fact, your old nick, so, err, i think you did 12:18:22 it went 12:18:25 ehird -> tusho -> (just now) ehird 12:18:49 * ais523 has been ais523 ever since ais523 joined University 12:18:53 and didn't really have a nick before then 12:19:00 * AnMaster have been same nick for ages too 12:19:07 has* 12:19:20 maybe you should be LanMaster, like oerjan suggested once IIRC 12:19:33 I hate networking :P 12:19:37 heh 12:19:56 I used to have a "real" nick, but I abandoned it because a) It's retarded b) I did stupid stuff under it (I got it when I was 8, abandoned when I was like 9 or 10) 12:20:08 And no, I won't tell you it, because then you could google for my stupidity. 12:20:18 (Or worse - recognize me) 12:20:35 ehird, you met any of us back then? 12:20:41 AnMaster: No. 12:20:45 hm ok 12:20:47 Not unless someone changed their name since then at least. 12:20:56 it's very unlikely you met me in any case 12:20:57 Oh, and my password used to be 'elliott'. :-P 12:21:01 ehird, XD 12:21:02 except possibly in real life by chance 12:21:10 but we wouldn't have recognised each other then... 12:21:15 probably not nowadays either 12:21:24 ais523: "MY GOD! You're that INTERCAL guy!" 12:21:26 I used to write my IRC name "Fizzle", but then I think someone stole it or something and I had to switch to "Fizzie"; I'm not sure when I dropped the uppercase letter off. 12:21:33 "INTERCAL? Hm... I've heard of it..." 12:21:44 "IT'S VERY IMPORTANT. in the future YOU WILL MAINTAIN C-INTERCAL" 12:21:47 * ais523 wonders why only half of ehird's line beginning ais523 was higlighted 12:21:49 "AND KNOW ME ON IRC" 12:21:54 "OMFG" 12:21:59 "I KNOW." 12:22:05 "[citation needed]" 12:22:05 shudder 12:22:14 "CITATIONS: [1] I AM 10 YEARS OLD." 12:22:20 "GOOD POINT." *walks away* 12:22:23 13.. 12:22:27 * ais523 struggles hard to remember the conversation 12:22:28 AnMaster: 'in the past' 12:22:30 ah 12:22:32 right 12:22:40 nope, gone, sorry 12:22:51 ais523: yea well I had to wipe your mind didn't I 12:22:59 can't let anyone know about my time travel abilities 12:23:02 err 12:23:09 speaking of which 12:23:11 *ZAP* 12:23:12 *ehird kicks everyone 12:23:32 * AnMaster read the tunes log 12:23:47 ;P 12:24:17 AnMaster: Yeah, well, I murdered 'nef'. 12:24:18 that trick wouldn't work on me because my client leaves the tab open when kicked 12:24:19 Now I control those logs. 12:24:29 ais523, same for mine 12:24:54 and I got local logs of course. And since I'm paranoid it is direct connected to a printer ;) 12:25:04 what, seriously? 12:25:08 ais523, no 12:25:14 somehow I didn't think so 12:25:15 local logs yes, printer no 12:25:18 ais523: I honestly wouldn't be surprised. 12:25:19 :\ 12:25:29 also, I have both local logs and ehird's bouncer's logs 12:25:34 and clog, and cmeme 12:25:35 yah 12:25:38 so that's 4 sources of logs 12:25:46 ais523, however it could make sense for kernel log for a mission critical system 12:25:49 hmm... 12:25:54 i hope psybnc doesn't log /msgs 12:25:56 in fact I think linux supports it 12:26:06 ah, wait 12:26:07 ais523: 12:26:11 uh uh 12:26:12 psybnc only logs when you're disco'd 12:26:16 ah 12:26:18 good 12:26:18 ehird: it puts them in the private logs 12:26:27 which I erase as soon as I've read them 12:26:39 ais523, right I shall remember to be careful with what I say to you when you use the bnc 12:26:40 also, yes 12:26:46 lawl. 12:26:52 AnMaster: totally not paranoid 12:26:52 AnMaster: well my client would log them anyway... 12:27:00 but AnMaster, you're right 12:27:02 ais523, well but that would be local 12:27:05 yes 12:27:06 don't go telling him your stories of child abuse 12:27:09 that would be dumb. 12:27:12 so ehird couldn't eavesdrop 12:27:19 AnMaster: IT WOULDN'T LOG 12:27:22 ehird, well I never done that so how could I? 12:27:23 it only logs when ais523's offline 12:27:24 specifically, it only logs stuff that's sent in /msg when I'm not online 12:27:28 hm 12:27:30 and I erase it when I become online again 12:27:37 someone could change that setting 12:27:39 I gues 12:27:41 AnMaster: no 12:27:41 well, yes 12:27:43 guess* 12:27:44 i'd have to modify the code 12:27:46 look, AnMaster 12:27:48 i could login as ais523 now 12:27:54 if you're paranoid enough ehird might have put a backdoor in when e recompile 12:27:56 *recomiled 12:27:56 i control the bouncer logfile 12:27:57 *he 12:28:00 ais523, hm 12:28:01 er 12:28:03 configfile 12:28:04 and the code 12:28:05 and everything 12:28:07 and so does ais523 12:28:09 so 12:28:10 since we are both in sudoers 12:28:13 I don't trust that 12:28:25 I think AnMaster's right not to trust it 12:28:26 AnMaster: its silly 12:28:30 any system with a root user 12:28:35 other than you, is completely insecure 12:28:37 if he was going to send me data that needed to be completely secret from ehird for some reason 12:28:43 not going via ehird's server would make sense 12:28:44 ehird, oh just btw, I think bundles are a good idea, as I said yesterday :P 12:28:44 no data at all can be private 12:28:50 ais523: dcc chat 12:28:51 :-P 12:28:57 ehird, so I don't hate apple 12:29:01 ehird: ah yes, ofc 12:29:11 ais523: which I just test-initiated 12:29:14 i'm not sure it'll work 12:29:16 due to eso-std.org 12:29:23 hm 12:29:44 I block dcc since I tend to get a lot of dcc spam 12:29:52 so I just filter them out 12:29:57 I could change it if needed 12:30:10 well, better still, what about I create a direct nick 12:30:14 that doesn't bounce of ehird's server 12:30:17 ais523, heh 12:30:22 in addition to the indirect nick I normally use 12:30:23 easy enough 12:30:29 ais523_trade_secrets 12:30:34 are we that paranoid though? 12:30:35 anyway AnMaster 12:30:42 it goes through freenode anyway 12:30:48 ehird, yes which is insecure 12:30:52 AnMaster: so who do you trust more 12:30:56 freenode or me :-P 12:30:59 don't answer that btw. 12:31:04 but i wouldn't read private logs 12:31:19 ehird, 1) they don't hate me like you do 2) no ssl indeed, but still a lot more communication to check 12:31:45 AnMaster: 1) That is true. It is part of my personal vendetta against you to steal all your trade secrets. 12:31:46 so freenode in fact, and I don't trust freenode very much 12:31:51 Or flirting with ais523. I don't know what's so private. 12:31:57 2) How so? 12:32:07 -!- ais523_ has joined. 12:32:07 hi ais523_ 12:32:13 hmm... wrong nick 12:32:19 * Current global users: 44320 Max: 50795 12:32:21 -!- ais523_ has left (?). 12:32:22 ehird, ^ 12:32:28 ais523: call it ais523_911_was_an_inside_job 12:32:40 ehird, you think so? 12:32:50 -!- ais523|direct has joined. 12:32:51 hi ais523|direct 12:33:00 somehow I don't see how you would get the plain to crash from inside the tower... 12:33:02 *plane 12:33:06 I'm pretty sure it came from outside 12:33:15 ais523: WAKE UP SHEEPLE 12:33:16 hehehe 12:34:08 doing it like this isn't ideal because I get two #esoterics 12:34:18 I think I'll leave ais523|direct connected but in no channels 12:34:20 how about... 12:34:24 and you lot will just have to remember it exists 12:34:24 just... 12:34:29 -!- ais523|direct has left (?). 12:34:29 not communicating really private stuff over irc 12:34:30 :-P 12:34:35 not an inside job, but in the investigation after they released too little information, making it look suspicious 12:34:38 that's a retarded idea ever, who does that 12:34:38 that is what I think 12:34:46 AnMaster: 911 WAS HALF OF AN INSIDE JOB 12:35:03 ehird, rather the investigation was not well handled 12:35:07 911 WAS AN OUTSIDE JOB MADE TO LOOK LIKE AN INSIDE JOB BY THE DICTATORSHIP OF THE CHIMPERIOR!! CHIMPEACH!! WAKE UP SHEEPLE 12:35:21 I don't think they intended it to look bad 12:35:30 rather just poorly handled 12:36:32 ehird: calm down... 12:36:32 also, wrong channel, surely? 12:36:33 optbot! 12:36:33 like only releasing a few frames of the video showing the plane hit pentagon... And those frames didn't show it very well 12:36:35 ^ best 9/11 conspiracy ever 12:36:36 for example 12:36:36 optbot, are you OK? 12:36:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | G'luck!. 12:36:38 ais523: nor indeed subroutines, i think it'd be pretty easy to write a forth without subroutines 12:36:42 ah, just slow 12:36:45 wow 12:36:45 lag 12:37:20 anyway, duh, the US government is incompetend 12:37:25 so is my spelling apparently 12:37:28 but that's not a great revelation 12:37:33 (the incompetence ... not my spelling) 12:38:16 heh, that reminds me of that Muphry's Law you were telling me about... 12:38:39 ehird, yes they are incompetent. And they failed to be open enough in the investigation, making the whole thing looks strange. And that of course leads to conspiracy theories 12:38:54 so just incompetence IMO 12:38:56 AnMaster: they could have given the best investigation ever and the conspiracy theorists would be all over it 12:38:59 and not an inside job 12:39:06 ehird, you think so? 12:39:17 hm 12:39:20 AnMaster: sure, most conspiracies are like that 12:39:25 ah true 12:39:43 ok, if you want a silly conspiracy theory: it was terrorists after all, but the US Government thought it would be less embarassing if people thought they'd done it 12:39:47 "I think X - a bad thing - is happening. The evidence is irrelevant because it was manufactured by the people doing X. We must expose the people doing X." 12:39:54 so they set up lots of conspiracy theories to try to discredit themselves 12:39:57 "Any explanation from the people doing X about how they are not doing X is trying to cover up the conspiracy." 12:40:05 ehird, however one can't deny that it did strengthen Bush's position considerably. But I rather think he used the situation, but not created it 12:40:09 ais523: brilliant 12:40:41 ais523, hehe 12:43:32 I'm gonna write a silly rougelike 'cause I want to. 12:43:37 Maybe. 12:43:40 rougelike, or roguelike? 12:43:49 ais523: rouguelike. 12:44:39 ehird, hm in what language? 12:44:47 C. Or Scheme. 12:44:51 Prolog 12:44:52 interesting 12:44:59 ais523: no :P 12:45:00 I've been thinking for ages that someone should rewrite NetHack in Prolog 12:45:04 yes 12:45:06 so you've said 12:45:09 unlambda 12:45:26 scheme->unlambda can't be hard 12:45:26 Prolog, another language I would like to learn 12:45:45 lazy scheme and such -> lambda calculusy thing -> unlambda 12:45:54 the latter one is mostly just lambda calculus -> SKI 12:45:56 hm true 12:46:10 SKI? 12:46:10 that would be fun 12:46:13 but probably very slow 12:46:17 AnMaster: Sxyz = xz(yz) 12:46:18 google only gives results related to the sport 12:46:19 Kxy=x 12:46:21 Ix=x 12:46:25 ehird: I thought scheme -> unlambda had already been done? 12:46:31 AnMaster: but 12:46:36 I = SKK 12:46:37 ah no, it was scheme -> Befunge 12:46:38 so 12:46:41 ehird, err what? 12:46:42 S, K and ` (apply) 12:46:43 are turing complete 12:46:44 I still want to do Haskell -> Underload some time 12:46:47 ah 12:46:54 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKI_combinator_calculus 12:47:06 ais523, how does Underload differ from unlambda? 12:47:07 unlambda is s, k, i 12:47:09 then continuations 12:47:11 and some other stuff 12:47:15 AnMaster: toatlly different 12:47:16 whereas Underload is a concatenative language 12:47:20 which acts functional in practice 12:47:20 only similarities: 12:47:21 the name. 12:47:21 ah right 12:47:24 and they're functional 12:47:33 and both are programming languages? 12:47:35 Underlambda is a sort of cross between the two, which I haven't finished yet 12:47:36 and yes 12:47:40 AnMaster: no, one is a mindfuck 12:47:40 both are esolangs 12:47:43 the other is a programming language 12:47:47 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload 12:47:49 ehird, which is which? 12:47:53 AnMaster: mindfuck=unlambda 12:47:56 ais523: nice doublelink 12:48:01 ehird: my client is messed up 12:48:04 errr 12:48:08 worked fine here? 12:48:11 both clickable 12:48:16 AnMaster: ... 12:48:17 it seems not to be able to handle two regex replacements in the same line 12:48:17 same ones 12:48:19 but they go to the same page. 12:48:19 however 12:48:23 AnMaster: the same link ended up twice 12:48:24 but didn't you want that? 12:48:27 even though I didn't type it twice 12:48:28 no. 12:48:31 ais523, yes I thought you wanted that 12:48:33 ais523: both are esolangs 12:48:35 ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload 12:48:36 [[e:Underload], [[e:Unlambda] 12:48:41 pretty obvious that e meant to link both 12:48:44 is what I typed 12:48:44 [[e:Underload] ? 12:48:46 but with double ] 12:48:48 now that is a nice one 12:48:48 at the end 12:48:52 heh ok 12:48:56 I have an autoreplace 12:49:01 and apparently Konversation messes it up... 12:49:07 I'll report that bug sometime later, probably 12:49:09 or maybe now 12:51:05 ah, it's been reported already 12:51:05 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158910 12:51:14 see, it wasn't me, it was my client, and that's official! 12:59:09 RESOLVED 12:59:11 it says 12:59:23 not sure if there have been any release since then 12:59:34 "fixed in SVN" 12:59:36 so probably not 13:24:52 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:31:18 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 13:46:28 -!- moozilla has joined. 13:48:04 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:48:07 -!- GregorR has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:48:07 -!- cmeme has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:48:10 -!- ais523 has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:48:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:48:10 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:48:10 -!- dbc has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:48:17 -!- rodgort has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:48:17 -!- pikhq has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:48:22 -!- metazilla has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:48:24 -!- optbot has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:48:27 -!- ehird has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:48:27 -!- mtve has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:48:28 -!- SimonRC has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:48:46 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 13:49:45 -!- ehird has joined. 13:50:09 -!- ehird has left (?). 13:50:09 -!- ehird has joined. 13:50:17 hahahahahahahahaha 13:50:32 -!- optbot has joined. 13:50:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | It's like it's decided that fork(); shouldn't be ran.. 13:50:51 that was GREAT 13:50:53 it was just me and optbot 13:50:54 ehird: wow- not a bad deal: http://www.woot.com/ 13:51:14 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 13:51:14 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 13:51:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:51:14 -!- GregorR has joined. 13:51:14 -!- cmeme has joined. 13:51:30 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 13:51:30 -!- dbc has joined. 13:51:30 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:51:30 -!- rodgort has joined. 13:51:39 hi ais523 13:52:54 -!- mtve has joined. 13:52:54 -!- SimonRC has joined. 13:53:00 -!- SimonRC_ has joined. 13:53:05 anyone know a brainfuck interpreter that can read from stdin? 13:53:11 basically I want REPL for brainfuck atm 13:53:24 AnMaster: $ bf /dev/stdin 13:53:27 durr 13:53:29 ah right 14:05:27 -!- SimonRC has quit (Connection refused). 14:34:36 convert.cc:51: error: 'g_assert' was not declared in this scope 14:34:36 filter((lambda page : page has a button for random content), internet) 14:34:41 Lol what? :| 14:35:10 AH 14:35:11 oh 14:35:22 why the fuck would i wanna see "most popular" entries or entries in chronological order? i want entries. an infinite flow of net entries, i don't care what the fucking category is 14:35:30 *new 14:35:47 -!- pini has joined. 14:35:57 wonder when i'm gonna add a random button on vjn.fi 14:36:29 nothing wrong with being hypocritical ofc 14:37:41 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 14:37:45 well, on vjn.fi you can just get a list of *all* content, from a category for a certain type of media, so it's simple to randomize manually 14:38:16 oklopol: well...categories make sense 14:38:25 not everyone just wants an infinite stream of anything 14:41:01 AnMaster: 14:41:03 Requested 'glib-2.0 >= 2.17.3' but version of GLib is 2.16.3 14:41:10 what is the latest glibmm that works with glib 2.16.3 14:41:12 do you know 14:41:12 D: 14:41:21 ah wait 14:41:28 hm? 14:41:35 i was just asking random people 14:41:42 ehird: i'm sure they *should* just want an infinite stream 14:41:55 oklopol: maybe people want to read about a specific topic... 14:42:07 stop that 14:42:08 oklopol: also, infinite stream reminds me of that funky javascript that detects when you scroll down and loads more content 14:42:12 you're such a CONFORMIST 14:42:13 oklopol: so it really is an infinite page of concent 14:42:14 :D 14:42:28 also that's pretty cool 14:43:11 a page with nothing but text, infinitely 14:43:25 thepipage.com 14:43:29 the whole pi. 14:43:40 oklopol: if you write that random script for vjn and gimme the code i'll make it an infinite page 14:43:46 because i have to spread awesome like that everywhere 14:43:47 y'know? 14:43:53 also, the whole pi on an infinite page is win 14:44:12 yes 14:44:16 has that been done? 14:44:18 no 14:44:21 but i shall do it 14:44:21 good 14:44:35 i was thinking of an infinite pi song at some point 14:44:38 but that's a bit harder 14:44:47 oklopol: well 14:44:58 paul slocum recently made a machine that generates house music from the digits of pi 14:45:04 http://www.qotile.net/blog/wp/?p=572 14:45:11 oklopol: take a listen to an hour of it http://www.qotile.net/files/pi_1hour.mp3 14:45:17 just put the text to speech of the digits over that 14:45:18 :-P 14:46:00 :) 14:46:09 he has a torernt of 10 hours of it also 14:46:26 what's the algo? do you know at all 14:46:28 but 14:46:30 it was removed 14:46:37 oklopol: no, he says hes gonna release the source post-polishing 14:47:03 well i'm not going to read the million lines of source to realize it's copypasting around a few elements 14:47:08 i want a human filtering of the source 14:47:13 perhaps you'll read it for me 14:47:20 oklopol: i doubt its a million lines 14:47:23 also 14:47:24 me too 14:47:27 http://qotile.net/morehouse/pi.jpg 14:47:28 http://qotile.net/morehouse/pi_detail.jpg 14:47:47 oklopol: a screenshot of it http://www.qotile.net/images/catalog/pi_house_screen.jpg 14:47:50 (its in an art gallery) 14:49:00 that doesn't contain any info though 14:49:28 oklopol: no 14:49:28 perhaps i should create the infinite sequence, i have no idea how that's done actually. 14:49:40 oklopol: i'll write the infinite pi page if you want 14:50:44 http://alienryderflex.com/pi.shtml :D 14:50:55 oklopol: is it infinite? 14:51:03 oh 14:51:04 also 14:51:05 open it, it was a joke 14:51:11 yes 14:51:17 hes wrong 14:51:18 because 14:51:21 there is a O(n) pi algorithm 14:51:25 so ha 14:51:33 assuming your computer doesn't decay, which it will. 14:51:44 -!- pini has left (?). 14:57:13 why the fuck don't programming languages support hexadecimal floating point 14:57:22 it's much more useful than base 10 14:57:33 WHY THE FUCK DO PEOPLE USE BASE 10 14:57:41 * oklopol hates 14:57:45 oklopol: you know the answer to that 14:57:52 yes 14:57:57 backwards-compatibility 14:58:02 it's the worst 14:58:44 actually according to an algorithm book i'm reading: "humans have 10 fingers, so they find the base 10 to be the most natural" 14:58:45 :D 14:58:51 i kinda lolled at that 14:59:15 oklopol: well, that is probably how it arose, you know? 14:59:16 counting on fingers 14:59:42 yes, that's what they say 14:59:47 also 14:59:48 oklopol: 14:59:48 but it's not why we find it the most natural 14:59:50 base 5 14:59:52 is 14:59:52 awesome 14:59:56 it is? 14:59:59 i'd be find with base 5 15:00:01 totally 15:00:03 oklopol: try it 15:00:04 *fine 15:00:04 just try it 15:00:45 omfg 15:00:46 that pi 1 hour 15:00:48 is repeating 15:00:50 "rick astley" 15:00:53 over and over again 15:01:00 RICK ASTLEY RICK ASTLEY RICK ASTLEY 15:01:55 -!- oklocod has joined. 15:02:21 oklocod: i have an idea 15:02:40 oklocod: what about a site which had like every site ever, and you could add your own sites, and you could deselect sucky sites 15:02:41 and then 15:02:43 it'd give you 15:02:46 an infinite page of random content 15:02:48 from all of those site 15:02:49 s 15:02:50 added together 15:03:25 oklocod: amazing or not amazing 15:04:00 that's pretty amazing 15:04:33 oklocod: i shall write it 15:18:16 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out). 15:18:17 write the dying heaven into it 15:18:49 well living and dying aren't antonymous, of course, excuse my terrible failure 15:25:57 -!- Corun has joined. 15:46:31 fizzie 15:46:35 iinland what is sweden? 15:46:40 in finland what is s weden 15:47:08 what? 15:47:20 "what is sweden in finnish?"? 15:48:05 no 15:48:10 in finland what is sweden 15:49:19 i'll leave this to fizzie 15:51:13 fizzie 15:51:15 in finland what is sweden 15:52:16 hi ais523 15:52:32 :D 15:53:10 hi ehird 15:53:12 C: 15:53:16 hmm... that lokos wrong in this font, the C doesn't line up with the : properly 15:53:17 C: is creepy 15:53:23 yes, definitely 15:53:44 oklocod: I like hex floating point too 15:53:49 although I've never used it 15:54:10 well, apart from telling gcc to build floating point emulation libraries, and that doesn't count 15:54:26 just out of interest, the Romans used base 10 for integers, but fractions were measured in units of 1/12 15:57:27 well that's just stupid :P 16:23:06 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:26:02 ais523: 16:26:04 you read? 16:27:02 yes 16:29:11 -!- jix has joined. 16:59:21 -!- Corun_ has joined. 17:00:05 optbot? 17:00:07 ais523: ...? 17:00:16 ah, just checking to see if I was online 17:00:19 but I like your response 17:00:59 ^help 17:00:59 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 17:01:27 ^def bf rev >,[>,]<.[<.] 17:01:27 Usage: ^def 17:01:34 ^def rev bf >,[>,]<.[<.] 17:01:35 Defined. 17:01:52 ^def hi rev !dlorw ,olleH 17:01:52 Usage: ^def 17:01:59 ^rev !dlorw ,olleH 17:02:00 Hello, wrold!. 17:02:03 whoops 17:07:13 -!- Corun has quit (No route to host). 17:14:34 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:19:39 hey guys 17:19:45 hi p5 17:19:57 -!- p5[sleep] has changed nick to psygnisfive. 17:22:55 ehird: In Finland, Sweden is the most common target for nationality-related jokes. 17:23:02 ino sifdhharie4 17:23:03 but] 17:23:06 sweden is finaland 17:23:22 in England, it's mostly the Irish who are laughed at in such jokes 17:23:45 there's often a Scotsman too but they aren't the target of the joke, they're just there to establish normal behaviour 17:24:16 Here's it's a Finn, a Swede and a Norwegian. 17:24:28 seems reasonable 17:24:40 presumably there are similar jokes all over the world 17:27:52 SWEEDEN IS FINALAND 17:28:24 (Sweden was an inside job, wake up Finland?) 17:30:52 ais523: Started to write an example here, but ran across IRC's message length limits. See http://zem.fi/~fis/joke.txt 17:31:34 that's totally unrealistic, obviously the captain would have saved one for himself... 17:32:20 Yes, he jumps off with it immediately after the announcement. 17:32:28 it's funny because the kids don't have a dad anymore, duh 17:32:37 Skipped that part when I was still trying to make that text fit in 512 characters. 17:32:52 it's mostly funny because the plane was coming in to land and they were only 6 feet above the ground... 17:32:53 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:32:57 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:33:52 ais523: what? 17:34:10 I like twist endings 17:54:20 -!- Corun_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:54:57 im not norwegian 17:55:03 but i take my backpack with me almost everywhere 18:00:55 fizzie, ehird, ais523: In the US, we make fun of /everyone/. We're equal-opportunity jerks. 18:01:07 heh 18:01:11 GregorR: Let's make fun of Somalia. 18:01:14 Hmm. 18:01:18 Something about domain names 18:01:33 Hard one this 18:01:57 Make fun of a country with no effective government? Too easy. 18:02:14 GregorR: But in a way that involves their people's inability to buy domain names from their country? 18:02:53 An American, an Italian and a Somali walk into a bar. The American is yelling at himself. The Italian asks why. "Well, I have two personalities that are always conflicting." The Italian says, "Oh, you only have two?" The Somali says nothing, because he imploded. 18:03:06 lol 18:03:12 GregorR: Lmao. 18:03:52 And no, I can't figure out a way to stuff domain names in there :P 18:03:57 Although I'd still like to own libc.so 18:04:30 heh 18:45:56 -!- CO2Games has joined. 18:49:59 iuhjo 19:08:30 the graphs in this book are MARVELOUS 19:08:55 there should be a book about graphs, just pictures of them, one on every page 19:09:02 oklocod: make a graph: 19:09:05 'Number of graphs in book' 19:09:07 'Awesomeness of book' 19:09:13 yes 19:09:15 a graph of that 19:09:22 you of all people can figure out how to make a chart a graph 19:10:32 there's plenty of ways to encode the list of pairs [(x, f(x))] that constitutes the chart into a graph 19:10:40 I have a better graph 19:10:41 I WANT GRAPHZZZZ 19:10:41 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers6/fffffffff.jpg 19:10:59 This graph is the number of google results per number of f'. 19:11:16 As you can see, there's a brutal drop for a hundred f's. 19:11:39 Slereah_: my msn name was ffffffff or something recently 19:11:56 what a ridiculous thing to graph... 19:12:05 ais523: but awesome 19:12:06 Also note the high result for ffffff 19:12:09 ehird: your mom's name was ffffffff or something recently. 19:12:15 Slereah_: do 'length of program' vs 'steps to run' 19:12:17 Because of the hex value of the same name 19:12:19 for brainfuck or something 19:12:22 slereah 19:12:23 dont worry 19:12:28 charts are like the ugliest thing on the planet 19:12:35 ehird : It would diverge rapidly 19:12:36 there are some intrepid souls up at 127 19:12:44 I would also have to solve the halting problem 19:12:52 Slereah_: >:( 19:12:54 Slereah_: I mean 19:12:58 Slereah_: just download programs from the interweb 19:13:00 Slereah_: no you wouldn't, just don't plot the y axis infinitely 19:13:12 i mean, have a finite bound on the stepcount 19:13:14 I'm guessing it's 128, probably generated by repeatedly doubling the clipboard 19:13:19 What does that mean anyway 19:13:31 brilliant! 19:13:32 Slereah_: nothing really, it just rhymed. 19:13:34 128! 19:13:35 There's 8^n programs for a program of length n 19:13:43 What am I supposed to take as a result? 19:13:49 average 19:13:50 :D 19:14:13 Average is infinity for most, I think 19:14:18 Starting with 3 19:14:27 Unless you allow some unbalance brackets 19:14:28 Slereah_: DOWNLOaDprograms 19:14:30 from the interweb 19:14:32 Like +] 19:14:34 ooooooooooooooooooooooo 19:14:38 ehird : What, all of them? 19:14:41 8^n of them? 19:14:43 Slereah_: just a lot of them 19:16:13 That would be pointless 19:16:16 Unlike ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 19:17:02 less than 8^n, [] have to match 19:17:34 ais523 : Not in my version it does not! 19:18:34 new silly idea: an esolang where any input is a legitimate program 19:18:39 but it's used to seed a random number generator 19:18:44 and its output is the real program 19:19:18 Like... Malbolge? 19:19:32 not exactly 19:25:56 wb ais523 19:26:41 thanks 19:42:42 -!- olsner has joined. 19:42:56 . 19:43:02 , 19:43:11 . 19:47:34 ,[.,] 19:47:55 >,[>,]<.[<.] 19:48:05 hmm... that program has a nice visual simplicity to iy 19:48:06 *it 19:48:11 Wow, that's beautifully compact. 19:48:33 (I guess that's what an infinite tape gives you though :P ) 19:49:10 I suppose that program is an argument for EOF = 0 or unchanged 19:49:16 it works on both 19:49:48 (I told ehird that ESO ought to be standardising brainfuck, ehird said it was standard, then we had a furious argument about what value EOF was in standard brainfuck) 19:50:00 EOF=0 is standard 19:50:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ugh. 19:50:36 hahahh 19:50:51 see, optbot agrees with me 19:50:51 ais523: :P 19:50:58 EOF = unchanged is probably neatest 19:51:02 and the original implementation used -1 19:51:05 neatest is irrelevant 19:51:12 what matters is what programs & impls today are written for 19:51:13 0 19:51:28 what do you mean "today's programs & impls" 19:51:50 of the BF implementations I could reasonably get documentations for, some assumed 0, some assumed -1, some assumed unchanged, some let you choose, one errored out and one returned 32 19:52:00 GregorR: For context, ais523 is convinced that since a lot of the My First Brainfuck Interps (none of which are any any good or really work properly) he snabbed don't use 0, that means 0 is not standard 19:52:14 ehird: well, it does 19:52:25 even the high-quality top-of-the-range ones differ 19:52:27 Most would use whatever C defines EOF as, no? 19:52:30 although mostly they let you choose 19:52:31 ais523: what about if you downloaded 100 c compilers made as toys 19:52:40 and they defined printf to explode a toaster 19:52:44 is printf exploding a toaster now a standard 19:52:45 they would be good for guessing common widths for int, and so on 19:53:05 they wouldn't define printf to explode a toaster because the people writing them wouldn't expect C to work like that 19:53:08 The lesson: EgoBF is the only standard. Love EgoBF. EgoBF is your friend. 19:53:15 the toy compilers are a good way to measure people's expectations 19:53:21 GregorR: what EOF value does it use? 19:53:29 EXPECTATIONS ARE IRRELEVANT 19:53:40 ehird: NO THEY AREN'T 19:53:42 ais523: 0 (+configurable) 19:53:44 yes they _ARE_ 19:53:52 people's expectations is exactly what causes a de-facto standard to develop 19:54:10 ais523: not if the people "developing" the de-facto standard are CLUELESS NEWBIES 19:54:16 and the only written-down standards are the reference interp, which uses -1, and the Epistle, and I can't remember what value that uses 19:54:24 epistle says 0 or unchanged 19:54:25 ehird: clueless newbies are precisely who develop de-facto standards 19:54:26 bff.c uses 0 19:54:32 and egobf uses 0+configurable 19:54:34 as that determines what 'de-facto' is 19:54:36 0 is the standard 19:54:37 end of 19:54:39 also, programs 19:54:41 define the standard 19:54:42 people who actually think about it aren't doing de-facto 19:54:43 more than implementations 19:54:52 most brainfuck programs assume 0, or at least assume 0 or stay-same 19:55:51 really? 19:55:56 where are you finding these most brainfuck programs? 19:56:12 where are you finding these useless implementations 19:56:19 And fungot uses 0! That's the interpreter most people use! 19:56:19 fizzie: if you convince another human being. ever.) 19:56:24 fungot: Shush, you. 19:56:24 fizzie: i salute you. 19:56:31 there 19:56:37 epistle, bff.c, egobf, fungot 19:56:38 ehird: zsh was always better at piping of find, grep, etc from walmart you get a logical fnord integer 19:56:43 ehird: I used the links from the Esolang article 19:56:44 all but epistle use 0 by default 19:56:48 and epistle says 0 or undefined 19:56:52 so there 19:56:55 also, the largest selection of BF programs I know is Keymaker's website 19:56:57 and he uses no-change 19:57:03 epistle, bff.c, egobf, fungot 19:57:03 ehird: i don't know 19:57:05 all but epistle use 0 by default 19:57:06 and epistle says 0 or undefined 19:57:38 of the two BF interps in the Ubuntu repos, one uses -1, the other is configurable 19:57:53 ais523: I like the part where you're ignoring me. 19:58:03 no, I'm just disagreeing with you 19:58:20 why do you consider fungot an authoritative source, for instance? 19:58:20 ais523: and...? if you want args 19:58:29 anf you mention bff.c a lot as if it means something in particular 19:58:31 jesus christ 19:59:19 ais523: Out of curiosity, what are the two BF interps in Ubuntu? 19:59:29 they're called beef and bf 19:59:39 although "bf" is a pretty generic name for a BF interp 19:59:42 AnMaster: are you seriously telling me you don't know what bff.c is? 19:59:46 er 19:59:47 ais523: 19:59:54 if so, haha, stop arguing about brainfuck interps now 20:00:07 I know it's a brainfuck interp that you harp on about a lot without explaining why you think it's more important than all the others 20:00:14 ais523: it is famous 20:00:18 well, so is awib 20:00:19 as bf interps go 20:00:21 and it uses -1 IIRC 20:00:33 being the fastest until bff4 displaced it, and bff4 is kinda sucky 20:00:36 it uses dbfi-style input and such 20:00:50 ehird: EgoBFC2M is faster than both, but it's cheating :) 20:00:58 GregorR: bf is apparently called "Yet another Brainfuck interpreter" 20:01:00 Debian almost got atehwa's "bfc", but then didn't: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=354831 20:01:02 capital B and all 20:01:28 -!- asiekierka has joined. 20:01:37 ugh, why does esolang stuff always end up at Debian prio extra 20:01:45 the only reason to put it there is that it's useless 20:01:46 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:01:50 ehird, ? 20:01:53 oh mistab 20:01:55 I mean, it's not as if it typically depends on closed-source stuff or anything like that 20:02:35 GregorR: how does EgoBFC2M work? 20:02:39 using the ick -F trick? 20:02:43 ais523: jit 20:03:06 ah, so GregorR's claiming "faster" whilst not taking the whole run time into account? 20:03:11 ick -F works like that too 20:03:16 (It's not strictly JIT since BF has no functions, so the whole thing is compiled at once, but it's about as close as you can get :P ) 20:03:25 ais523: no hes saying that it it is not an interp 20:03:25 I actually hadn't heard of ick. 20:03:27 it is a compiler 20:03:36 GregorR: ick's the filename of the C-INTERCAL compiler 20:03:37 that runs the compiled code 20:03:41 and discards it after 20:03:59 ehird: well if that's faster than interpreting, it's a legit way to run the program 20:04:04 Depending on closed-source stuff would put it in contrib, I think; as far as I know "extra" really _means_ "useless". 20:04:10 fizzie: ah 20:04:13 ais523: we're talking about _fastest interps_ 20:04:27 oh? I'm talking about fastest implementations 20:04:29 And then, Gregor disappeared because this conversation is getting stupid. 20:04:32 no matter what technique they use 20:04:41 ais523: we are not. 20:05:02 why are you restricting yourself to interps only, just because the second-fastest happens to support your EOF convention? 20:05:12 that seems a bit intellectually dishonest... 20:05:13 ais523: because esowiki does 20:05:22 really? I'm surprised 20:05:25 awib's a compiler, for instance 20:05:28 and i mentioned bff.c way before that, anyway 20:05:29 and I'm pretty sure it's mentioned 20:05:35 so don't accuse me of intellectual dishonesty kthx. 20:05:49 well, if I invent a new world's fastest BF compiler, probably I'll use EOF unchanged 20:05:57 or maybe -2, just to annoy you 20:06:54 For the record, do you agree that the de-facto standard is EOF=0? 20:06:55 Off the record I agree :P 20:06:55 Oh, off the record is a shame because now I'm going to quote you >:) 20:07:11 Oh, and Debian does have the Perl Acme::Brainfuck "embed BF in Perl" module -- translates BF to Perl at the parsing stage -- with priority "optional". 20:07:24 well, that's in CPAN, it must be useful... 20:07:30 what EOF does it use, BTW? 20:07:33 #1 reason why 0 should be considered the standard: -1 sucks and makes code suck. 20:07:45 And then, Gregor ACTUALLY disappeared because this conversation is getting stupid. 20:07:48 that's the #1 reason why it should be unchanged, really 20:08:45 ais523: The documentation doesn't say (and the "reverse" example uses ".----------]" to stop to newline) and I don't have it installed, so can't be sure. 20:09:15 Er, ",", not ".". 20:09:44 ais523, Only make an argument of unchanged and 0 on EOF. 20:09:58 (since it's trivial to handle both in the same program) 20:10:20 It translates , directly to "P = ord getc;" and "ord" seems to turn the 'undef' returned by getc into 0. 20:10:24 the only real argument for -1 is that it's what the reference interp used, and the most obvious choice in some ways 20:10:31 -1 is stupid, and -2 is fucking insane. 20:11:17 maybe the correct value is actually "whatever the platform uses for EOF by default" 20:11:22 which would be -1 for running on C 20:11:26 0 for running on Perl 20:11:37 59048 for running on Malbolge (IIRC) 20:11:44 Actually, on C, it's not -1. 20:11:48 and whatever the host used for recursive BF 20:11:56 pikhq: and yes, I know, but it always seems to be -1 in practice 20:12:44 Saying 'always seems to be' is not correct. :p 20:12:50 20:13:08 pikhq: well, yes 20:13:18 -1 for running on a typical POSIXy C implementation, maybe I should have said 20:16:39 Some implementations set the cell at the pointer to 0, some set it to the C constant EOF (in practice this is usually -1), some leave the cell's value unchanged. There is no real consensus; arguments for the three behaviors are as follows. 20:16:52 sounds about right... 20:19:56 I prefer 0, but don't mind unchanged. 20:20:01 Whee. 20:21:14 fungot: What do you prefer? Never mind the behaviour I forcibly coded into you. 20:21:14 fizzie: not sure about 20:21:25 Well, that's not conclusive. 20:21:49 it's pretty conclusive for fungot 20:21:50 ais523: sorry i don't know why i capitalized satisfiable? in the end 20:23:13 At least e's polite. 20:23:26 optbot: what do you think? 20:23:27 ais523: Nope. 20:23:33 optbot: Nope to what? 20:23:34 ais523: i would do a temporary complete sleep-dep experiment, but not that 20:23:48 hmm... ChanServ? Your opinion? 20:23:54 I tend to write code that works when EOF=0 and EOF=unchanged, so they're effectively the same. 20:23:56 you never seem to do much but send out welcomes... 20:24:04 LMAO 20:24:11 ...like a general-purpose mental exercise book, basically pages and pages full of things you can "calculate" in your head, each represented with just a short textual representation, for instance "what will the following intercal snippet evaluate to?", or just "what is the optimal move for the following tic-tac-toe board, if you're X?" 20:24:31 oklocod: sounds interesting 20:24:37 would it all be esostuff 20:24:41 or a mixed bag of things? 20:24:49 well, i was thinking a very mixed bag. 20:25:26 there could be problems that required quite specific knowledge, and ones that are trivial; you'd just skim through it, and mark the ones you've found the solution to 20:25:47 ok, that does sound interesting 20:25:53 yes, i think so too 20:25:58 for some reason it reminds me of the Mystery Hunt which had an esolang-related question 20:26:07 hmm mystery hunt? 20:26:11 but the whole of the rest of it was, as usual, all sorts of stuff 20:26:20 oklocod: apparently it's some tradition at an American university 20:26:26 I only found out about it from Wikipedia 20:26:32 it's basically a giant quiz 20:26:43 but the rules aren't really explained at all 20:26:53 most of the questions have no explanation, you just have to guess how to answer them 20:27:11 and normally they're presented in a surreal manner which itself is a clue to something else 20:27:21 like giving them numbers that aren't in sequence, for instance 20:27:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_Hunt 20:27:40 anyway, all problems would have a very short explanation, and a very short answer you could like write on the line next to it, but the answer might require quite a lot of pondering; you could also have ones that are meant to be done on paper, which wouldn't have to have a limit on the memory the solution uses, so to speak (as most people's mental capacity is quite small) 20:27:45 hmm 20:28:06 i was thinking less mysterious :P 20:28:11 yes, it would be 20:28:24 so that you'd actually know what you're answering to, just not always how 20:29:49 and many would require specific knowledge, so that you'd need to learn the basics of intercal for some questions, for instance 20:30:12 yes 20:30:29 and there could be like markers for what question requires what, categories like Esolangs, Math, Games... 20:30:43 well 20:30:54 not sure that's useful, if there's the requirement of short questions 20:31:36 anyway, that's something that could just be gathered up for a long period of time, and i'm thinking i could, maybe, start doing just that 20:31:56 anyway, http://www.mit.edu/~puzzle/02/round2/05/Puzzle.html was the esolang round 20:32:03 I haven't looked at it in detail 20:32:08 I wonder how long it would take us to solve? 20:32:17 i'll look 20:32:30 identifying the langs is the first step 20:32:33 (=<;:^8765Y32V0/.R,+*N('K%$H"!~}C0cba`_^]s\8IXGFEqSSnP?kdLKg&HGpE4CB1@/h sadol? 20:32:36 hmm 20:32:37 oh no. 20:32:42 must be Malbolge 20:32:49 second is unlambda 20:32:51 sequences of chars running backwards like that are a giveaway 20:32:53 and yes, agreed 20:32:59 then brainfuck 20:33:00 third is clearly BF 20:33:08 ah 20:33:15 next is a 2d one 20:33:16 fourth is RUBE, I think 20:33:17 but which 20:33:22 ah 20:33:29 numbers on top of = signs 20:33:32 and a ) at the end 20:33:37 is a typical way to print a string in RUBE 20:33:48 is it a conveyor belt language? 20:33:51 yes 20:33:57 the fifth, I can't recognise the format the image is in 20:34:23 ah, it's a GIF 20:34:28 based on the magic word at the start 20:34:34 but they changed the extension to confuse people 20:34:58 *removed the extension 20:35:05 yes 20:35:11 large areas 20:35:15 based on the large blocks of colour, it's probably Piet 20:35:22 so, i'm thinking... that one that starts with a p 20:35:23 yes 20:35:24 piet 20:35:25 right 20:35:38 the sixth I don't recognise 20:35:41 the large blocks are really a trivial giveaway 20:35:42 la. 20:35:55 false? 20:35:59 la? 20:36:12 I thought False had more letters in than that 20:36:13 false has newline strings like the one in the end 20:36:14 oklocod: 20:36:19 if you wanted to make that book 20:36:23 then 20:36:29 the last line is just ", and the line before it ends in a " 20:36:32 i'd make a web version where you can enter your answers 20:36:33 this is something false does 20:36:35 and it'll tell you if you got any wrong 20:36:35 :D 20:36:37 also doesn't false use []'s 20:36:38 ah, ok 20:36:44 i think it does. 20:36:46 the next one is Flip, almost certainly 20:36:51 which I've never used but it looks distinctive 20:36:56 p is the false print 20:37:22 the one after that seems to be some sort of Lord Of The Rings-themed esolang 20:37:24 isn't it just a funge? 20:37:25 hmm 20:37:41 oklocod: Flip's fungelike, but very multithreaded, I don't know much else 20:37:53 ais523: sure it's not that one language that uses quines for iteration? 20:37:55 m... 20:37:57 muriel 20:37:59 Muriel? 20:38:04 strings, plus concatenation, plus printing 20:38:07 it has much longer identifiers 20:38:12 Muriel has a little sister, though 20:38:12 they didn't have the guts to do iteration 20:38:14 hmm 20:38:18 which has shorter identifiers 20:38:22 trying to remember its name now 20:38:30 well clealy they're just concatenating, then outputting. 20:38:34 *clearly 20:38:41 what do gth do, though? 20:38:47 oh, 20:38:47 it looks like a stack-based lang that identifies strings 20:38:53 actually yes, something like that 20:38:54 and I agree that the LOTR stuff is probably a decoy 20:38:58 i didn't realize there was that ppppppp part 20:39:07 yeah, most certainly, they're in strings, after all. 20:39:13 but what's the last one 20:39:20 ah 20:39:22 that's trivial 20:39:22 Chef is the last one 20:39:24 yes 20:39:26 can't be anything else... 20:39:26 ais523: Are you sure the fungelike isn't just plain old Befunge? It is at least a working befunge program. 20:39:40 no, I'm not 20:39:44 yeah, | used for ifs, clearly 20:39:44 actually it could be 20:39:49 ah yes, 20:39:53 so it's Befunge 20:39:54 you have |'s, then code underneath, and to the right 20:39:55 yes 20:39:59 -95 by the look of it 20:40:12 Also it prints "DOROTHY'S AUNT" when run under a Funge interpreter. 20:40:19 oh? 20:40:25 my guess is they all print strings 20:40:28 which form the clues to something else 20:40:32 the Mystery Hunt worked like that 20:40:45 also the names of the questions will be a clue to yet another thing 20:40:45 yeah, would be a bit trivial just to find out what the language is 20:40:47 ...or not 20:41:14 but, at least we did the first phase quite fast. except for the second to last 20:41:34 ais523: -95? 20:41:37 so, what is 1183 20:41:41 ehird: well, or -93 20:41:42 -93 itym 20:41:43 oklocod! pms! 20:41:43 I got he name wrong 20:41:58 ehird: http://www.mit.edu/~puzzle/02/round2/05/1183 if you want to play along 20:42:08 that looks like muriel 20:42:10 we're trying to identify what lang it's in 20:42:11 or sth 20:42:17 some quine-rewriting language 20:42:23 well, oklocod thought Muriel too 20:42:28 hmm, gt*h, g does something that lets you use t on the result, then it's converted "back" with h 20:42:40 Muriel has longer keywords, so if it is it's the tarpit version 20:42:58 muriel so doesn't have longer keywords! :o 20:43:00 i'll check 20:43:05 oklocod: ah yes 20:43:06 it's Smurf 20:43:09 tarpit Muriel 20:43:16 g and p access variables 20:43:27 yesh 20:43:28 *yesh 20:43:30 ... 20:43:32 *yeah 20:43:34 just confusing names 20:43:37 and t removes the first char from a string 20:43:44 so it's basically slicing all those strings by hand 20:43:54 presumably to find the characters they actually want to print 20:43:55 right. 20:44:36 well, okay, perhaps we are quite good at esolanging. 20:45:38 we ought to be the best on the Internet, collectively 20:45:39 I think 20:45:55 now we just have to find interps and run them all 20:46:47 1183 outputs "first letter of the name of this programming language" 20:46:50 so S, presumably 20:46:59 ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>[>+>+++>++>+++++>+++++++<<<<<-]>[>]<[>+>+<<-]<++++.>>--------.---.+++<<---<.>--->>+>++<++>++<+.-------.>..<.>--.<++<<---<.>--->>++.>+.<<<<.>---.<<--.<---. 20:46:59 The letter is E.. 20:47:06 There you have 180. 20:47:34 oh, they're that easy? :\ 20:47:48 And 600 was "Dorothy's aunt", which I think usually is a Wizard of Oz reference meaning Em (short for Emily). 20:47:59 I'm sure there must be some additional trickery involved. 20:48:14 anyone here have a Malbolge interp? 20:48:22 i have nothing on this comp 20:48:24 Why are the link numbers the program lengths in bytes, anyway? 20:49:06 seems like a way to get irrelevant information that's not totally random, to confuse people 20:49:47 fizzie: ah, that must be a clue to something else 20:49:48 The unlambda program (132) outputs an 's'. 20:49:56 Or actually it outputs: 20:49:57 -ss 20:49:58 s-- 20:49:58 -s- 20:49:58 --s 20:50:00 ss- 20:50:08 anyway the Malbolge program prints -> R <- 20:50:10 what would be nicer is if you'd have to guess what the program does even though the language is actually nonexistant 20:50:35 probably, done well, that would be quite a fun mental exercise 20:50:49 well, it would just be a new lang in that case 20:51:01 yes, but you'd have to reverse-engineer it, that's the point 20:51:03 so, which programs still have to be run? 20:51:21 assuming that each program outputs a letter 20:52:11 ehird: sorry for not responding, i was in esolang mode, a webpage like that would be nice for it, could be referenced in it 20:52:26 umm 20:52:48 we have 73 R, 132 S, 180 E, 194 not sure, 198 not sure, 241 not sure, 600 M, 1183 S, 1840 not sure 20:54:14 ##Begin comment: Note to self, IRP reads comments, like this one, and makes comments about their content. Avoid placing sensitive data (e.g. SSN, Bank account numbers, etc.) in IRP comments like you do in other languages. ##End Comment 20:56:52 The Piet one (198) outputs "LETTER L". 20:57:08 Happened to have the Perl module Piet::Interpreter around. 20:58:41 oklocod :| 20:59:34 fizzie: ah, thanks 21:03:27 But Acme::Chef doesn't seem to want to run the Chef program. :/ 21:03:41 fizzie: Perl isn't the only thing ever :-P 21:04:21 ehird: no, but it's a convenient repo 21:04:33 ais523: but cpan is evil remember 21:06:22 Strange, though. It just complains: "Unknown ingredient 'contents of the mixing bowl' required for recipe 'baked herb casserole' in 'verb'." even though the program itself seems just fine to me. 21:06:39 it must be an earlier version 21:08:02 It shouldn't call require_ingredient at all when handling 'pour'. 21:09:37 Oh, I see. It should say "Liquify", not "Liquefy", in the program. 21:11:12 Unfortunately all it prints out are bytes with values in the [2, 32] range. I don't think the interpreter is compatible. 21:11:51 fizzie: try adding 26 to all of them, what do you get then? 21:11:53 *65 21:13:38 Nothing sensible. :p 21:13:53 For the reference, here's the output. But it might be very wrong; better try with some other Chef interpreter. 21:14:02 00000000 0e 03 15 02 20 02 03 03 13 06 17 0a 02 15 0a 10 |.... ...........| 21:14:03 00000010 0f |.| 21:14:03 14, 3, 21, 2, 20, 2, 3, 3, 19, 6, 23, 10, 2, 21, 10, 16, 15 21:14:23 I was wondering if it was positions in the alphabet 21:14:31 in which case adding 64 would make more sense than adding 65 21:14:47 So was I, but at least 1=A it wasn't. Feel free to try with 0=A or something else. 21:15:34 http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/chef.html has "Additional syntax specifications added 17 July, 2003, marked in red. Fixed spelling of "liquefy" keyword." 21:15:39 So the Acme::Chef one is pretty old. 21:15:45 yes 21:16:18 -!- Hiato has joined. 21:16:39 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 21:17:57 Oh, hey. 21:17:59 fis@eris:~$ perl -e '@a = (14, 3, 21, 2, 20, 2, 3, 3, 19, 6, 23, 10, 2, 21, 10, 16, 15); print chr($_+63) foreach @a; print "\n";' 21:18:02 MBTASABBREVIATION 21:18:12 A = -1? 21:18:17 "MBT AS ABBREVIATION" sounds suspiciously English to be random nonsense. 21:18:25 those sneaky puzzle-setters... 21:18:36 no... A=2 21:18:49 so what letter does that resolve to, I wonder? 21:19:02 unfortunately it's probably one of those questions which you need to know about MIT to solve 21:20:06 umm 21:20:14 well, what does mbt mean, as an abbreviation? 21:20:21 isn't that kind of an obvious next step 21:20:25 A lot of thing, according to Wikipedia. :p 21:20:50 hmm 21:21:09 well, we're looking for random letters, perhaps this one gives us 3? dunno. 21:21:27 I think each answer is one letter most likely 21:21:39 most likely 21:21:41 although 600 could be em rather than m 21:21:59 err, i'm pretty sure it's M 21:22:07 yes 21:22:52 73 R, 132 S, 180 E, 194 ?, 198 L, 241 ?, 600 M, 1183 S, 1840 "MBT as abbreviation". Still two more languages to run there. 21:25:54 the RUBE program seems to have no output instructions 21:26:21 -!- atrapado has joined. 21:26:22 prolly just builds a string? 21:26:42 RUBE doesn't have strings 21:30:56 Ran it with the catseye interpreter with a long delay -- after hacking usleep() in place of the #ifdef BORLAND delay() based one -- and the crates just seem to drop off without much happening. 21:31:31 yes, there are no output instructions 21:31:40 there's probably a typo in the program somewhere 21:31:48 They drop down to the < and then into the furnace. 21:31:52 also, what's that input instruction doing over the right where it can't do anything? 21:32:37 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:32:48 Actually a C is left on the conveyor belt at the very end. 21:32:49 fizzie: it's not RUBE 21:32:51 it's RUBE II 21:32:57 Oh. 21:33:05 then C means "output char" 21:33:07 DAS KLICKENKLACKER 21:33:07 which makes a lot more sense 21:35:43 "This yields an "E"." is what it does. 21:35:50 ah, ok 21:36:06 73 R, 132 S, 180 E, 194 E, 198 L, 241 ?, 600 M, 1183 S, 1840 "MBT as abbreviation". 21:36:15 so just 241 to go 21:37:13 AnMaster: try the unlambda page, oerjan created a system for representing it 21:37:39 that _definitely_ was on the esolangs wiki, no matter how much you try to confuse poor AnMaster 21:39:33 . 21:39:34 . 21:39:37 .. 21:40:43 but i think madore's pages are good for callcc too 21:41:25 Re 241: 21:41:26 koira-apina /u/1/htkallas > ./false 241.f 21:41:26 Portable False Interpreter/Debugger v0.1 (c) 1993 $#%! 21:41:26 ..-. .. ..-. - .... .-.. . - - . .-. --- ..-. 21:41:26 .- .-.. .--. .... .- -... . - 21:41:54 The Javascript interpreter didn't run it, and false_int.c did not want to compile on my GCC, but there it is. Someone else can translate from the morse code. 21:43:10 FIFTH LETTER OF ALPHABET 21:43:12 so another E 21:43:29 It might also be an A. 21:43:35 Which is fifth letter of "alphabet". 21:43:46 oh, yes 21:44:07 so, do the letters anagram to anything, I wonder 21:46:01 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:46:30 If you use the "A from alphabet" interpretation, you get R, S, E, E, L, A, M, S and 1840 being something strange; it anagrams to "real mess". :p 21:46:49 heh 21:47:12 well, I suspect we don't have enough context to get any further with the puzzle 21:47:17 but I'm glad at our progress 21:48:07 aaaaa 22:19:01 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 22:22:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:22:17 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 22:29:09 x.x 22:29:24 haskell makes it really easy to perform algebraic manipulations of functions 22:29:53 yes 22:30:21 I'm starting to think that all imperative languages and all functional languages are in fact special cases of Haskell 22:30:28 lol 22:30:31 in fact the ghc compiler is heavily based on algebraic simplifications 22:30:56 i mean look at this definition of adding two lists: 22:31:00 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Excess Flood). 22:31:14 (++) [] ys = ys 22:31:14 (++) (x:xs) ys = x : (xs ++ ys) 22:31:15 (++) (x:xs) ys = x : ((++) xs ys) 22:31:17 ==> (++) (x:xs) ys = (x:) ((++) xs ys) 22:31:19 ==> (++) (x:xs) ys = ((x:) . (++) xs) ys 22:31:21 ==> (++) (x:xs) = (x:) . (++) xs 22:31:23 (++) [] = id 22:31:25 (++) (x:xs) = (x:) . (++) xs 22:31:27 and from this last version it becomes trivial to then say 22:31:29 (++) = foldr (\a b -> (a:) . b) id 22:31:46 and from there 22:31:48 ==> (++) = foldr (\a b -> (a:) . b) id 22:31:50 ==> (++) = foldr (\a b -> (.) (a:) b) id 22:31:51 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 22:31:52 ==> (++) = foldr (\a -> (.) (a:)) id 22:31:54 ==> (++) = foldr (\a -> (.) ((:) a)) id 22:31:56 ==> (++) = foldr (\a -> ((.) . (:)) a) id 22:31:58 ==> (++) = foldr ((.) . (:)) id 22:32:19 psygnisfive: 22:32:21 Nice HUGE FLOOD 22:32:37 ehird: so? was i interrupting any conversations? 22:32:37 No. 22:32:42 so shut up. 22:32:43 psygnisfive: Irrelevant. 22:32:56 Ill elephant 22:32:58 no, not irrelevant really 22:33:14 anything involving (.) . or (x .) currently breaks my parser :( 22:33:19 actually, /me goes home 22:33:19 :( 22:33:37 Asztal: you're trying to implement haskell? 22:33:56 ais523: if he was someone who had just joined he'd be being pointed to pastebins now 22:33:56 Why do the rules change because he has been here for a while? 22:34:09 sorry, I mean my feeble human parsing 22:34:15 ah 22:34:19 because pastebins are useful in specific contexts, ehird. 22:34:29 they're useful for not spamming a room. 22:34:38 psygnisfive: every time anyone has ever flooded this channel they are told to use a pastebin 22:34:39 well (f . g) x = f (g x) 22:34:45 OBVIOUSLY NOT. 22:34:46 that's the definition of . 22:35:08 you may argue that is bad, fine. but that does not mean it doesn't apply to you too 22:35:25 haskell seems to be designed to make obfuscation easy 22:35:51 psygnisfive: there have been three obfuscated haskell contests 22:36:15 what, did people just submit their existing programs and win? :P 22:36:28 i don't think so :D 22:36:40 :p 22:37:05 did they define some trivial function in the most absurd way possible, ala EHP? 22:37:31 i do recall some heavy renaming of functions as operators 22:38:47 http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Obfuscation 22:39:28 oh jesus christ 22:40:49 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Excess Flood). 22:41:40 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 22:55:52 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 23:08:30 -!- Chocolate_Syrup has joined. 23:54:40 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 2008-10-07: 00:05:22 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 00:22:41 psygnisfive, I agree with ehird above. Same rules for everyone. 00:23:56 no! different rules for those whose nicks start with 'o' 00:24:12 right, optbot? 00:24:12 oerjan, nop 00:24:13 oerjan: Heh. 00:24:40 oerjan, he was just amused at such a outrageous idea 00:24:53 optbot: say it isn't so! 00:24:53 oerjan: there's no port there. 00:25:17 I think that is a conclusive no? 00:25:29 so you were wrong :P 00:25:55 that is a matter of interpretetationing 00:26:42 optbot, I'm right, am I not? 00:26:42 AnMaster: do you know the names? 00:26:56 optbot, well what names? 00:26:56 AnMaster: Yay! 00:27:03 optbot, huh? 00:27:03 AnMaster: queen's orders 00:27:31 optbot, What queen? 00:27:31 AnMaster: Hello you bastards. 00:27:40 oerjan, I think he is on drugs 00:27:53 ehird and me was around when he admitted before 00:28:18 oerjan, so none of that is probably relevant 00:30:45 I just think optbot thinks you have insufficient security clearance 00:30:46 oerjan: ~quit 00:31:07 see? he doesn't want me to speak about it 00:31:16 oerjan, no he is on drugs 00:31:24 optbot, are you on drugs again? 00:31:25 AnMaster: what about between mercurial and git? 00:31:38 those are some heavy drugs yeah 00:31:39 well one of those may be a drug ;P 00:31:53 oerjan, I tend to use svn and bzr mostly 00:32:10 oerjan, so I was right anyways? 00:32:13 anyway* 00:32:32 you were right - from one point of view 00:33:09 from the opposite point of view, you would be left 00:39:56 oerjan, which theory do you subscribe to in http://blag.xkcd.com/2008/09/09/the-goddamn-airplane-on-the-goddamn-treadmill/ ? 00:43:18 well night then 00:43:26 night 00:43:36 oh now you respond 00:43:37 huh 00:43:45 * oerjan cackles evilly 00:44:01 oerjan, well do you plan to answer the question? :) 00:44:13 i agree that it is impossible with actual physical materials 00:44:18 well yes 00:44:31 oerjan, that is why it is called a "thought experiment" 00:46:06 oerjan, so assuming needed materials (complex carbon structures in some composite material or whatever) existed, what then? 00:48:24 bit delayed, anmaster :P 00:48:35 psygnisfive, I know it is an old post, and? 00:48:48 s'all 00:48:53 so what? 00:49:09 and uh.. 00:49:16 you're not the boss of me! 00:50:34 so were you interesting in working on a language with those features from before, anmaster?? 00:50:58 psygnisfive, I don't have any ideas how it would look really 00:51:23 but yes I would like to know what more you come up with + give suggestions 00:51:31 afraid I lack time to implement stuff 00:51:46 well, the scoping thing would be i think a relatively small thing to add, basically with just an equivalent of an "either" keyword 00:52:05 psygnisfive, it is 01:51 here.. so Maybe in the morning would be a better time to discuss? 00:52:13 ok :p 00:52:31 * AnMaster heads to bed 00:52:33 night 00:52:37 night 00:52:41 night 01:50:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | *is that quantum physics. 01:51:06 no it's strawberry jam 02:47:25 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 04:33:02 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 05:39:43 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:34:04 -!- jix has joined. 07:50:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | he'll perform with his rock band. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:46:23 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:53:29 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("So, how much do you love noodles?"). 10:02:37 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:02:46 -!- moozilla has quit (Client Quit). 11:17:16 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:17:16 -!- dbc has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:17:59 -!- dbc has joined. 11:17:59 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 11:29:29 optbot! 11:29:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | >>> bf +++++++++++++++[>++++>++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]> +++.>>.+++++.>---.+++.<.-----.>+++++++++++.<----.<++.>+++++++.+++..+.. 11:29:43 ^bf +++++++++++++++[>++++>++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]> +++.>>.+++++.>---.+++.<.-----.>+++++++++++.<----.<++.>+++++++.+++..+. 11:29:43 ?infinite loop 11:29:46 hm? 11:29:49 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:29:50 fizzie, ^ 11:29:55 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 11:30:01 is that fungot detecting something 11:30:02 AnMaster: he even draw a heptagon well? lol 11:30:08 or is it the program printing tha 11:30:09 that* 11:30:18 ^bf +-+++++++++++++[>++++>++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]> +++.>>.+++++.>---.+++.<.-----.>+++++++++++.<----.<++.>+++++++.+++..+. 11:30:19 7[`X[`[fW.^aab 11:30:23 ^bf ++++++++++++++[>++++>++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]> +++.>>.+++++.>---.+++.<.-----.>+++++++++++.<----.<++.>+++++++.+++..+. 11:30:23 ;bg_bgbm^.ehhi 11:30:25 gn 11:30:27 hm 11:30:30 guess it is the program 11:52:09 -!- slereah has joined. 11:59:14 Hi everyone, anyway 11:59:58 i want a language where the basic construct is the solve 3sat function 12:00:06 3sat? 12:00:41 basically a line would be like ABC ab, meaning "find a, b and c such that ( a | b | c )^( !a | !b )" 12:00:46 ...is true 12:01:06 3sat means you have boolean or clauses with 3 vars, and you and them all 12:01:07 is there any way to use that for control flow? 12:01:25 one of the "most general" np-complete problem, in an intuitive sense 12:01:27 (btw that's my first reaction when introduced to pretty much any new operator) 12:01:35 *problems 12:01:47 anyway, if it's just 3 booleans, can't you brute-force it? 12:01:59 you can have more *variables* 12:02:04 and more *clauses* 12:02:08 just that clauses are size 3. 12:02:23 you can quite simply encode clauses of any size to clauses of size 3 12:02:34 (for size 2 it's simpler) 12:02:45 ah, ok... what part of an expression is a clause? 12:02:51 and how do you measure its size? 12:02:53 (var | var | var) 12:02:56 clause of size 3 12:03:03 ah, ok 12:03:21 the original idea was a language where the spec says 3sats must be solved in constant time :P 12:03:41 but, i'm not sure about flow control yet, and more importantly, i'm not sure how to do infinite memory 12:04:14 but i was thinking some scope, and for memory, fuzzy logic, you could have a real number as the probability, meaning unbounded memory in theory 12:04:32 i don't know about the complexity of fuzzy 3sat, but it's probably at least not much easier :P 12:04:46 but, lecture in 10 minutes and i don't have a bike or money for bus 12:05:28 ais523: read a book that mentions 3sat, it's quite a widely-known problem! 12:05:33 ah, ok 12:05:33 see ya -> 12:05:37 bye 12:06:01 (now if only i could find my running sandals...) 12:06:05 (->) 12:09:39 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:12:27 -!- dbc has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:13:08 -!- dbc has joined. 12:37:08 AnMaster: Yeah, fungot just says "out of time". 12:37:09 fizzie: someone once said how long is a long vowel, and so 12:37:16 ^bf +[] 12:37:22 ...out of time! 12:43:19 fizzie: get it to print hello world as an error message, then we can confuse people 12:43:27 -!- dbc has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:45:37 -!- dbc has joined. 13:04:47 -!- dbc has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:04:57 -!- dbc has joined. 13:05:57 hi ehird 13:08:13 hi ais523 . 13:08:34 you have about an hour of talking to me before I have to leave for lectures 13:08:57 exciting 13:09:08 But you've only got a half hour with me D-8 13:09:27 guess what hasnt installed yet ais523 13:09:40 hmm... is it a collaborative editor by any chance? 13:09:45 yep 13:12:13 you know 13:12:23 if gtk and all related technologies disappeared tomorrow 13:12:30 i would not mind at all. 13:13:38 By some definition, all software is related technology. 13:16:54 GregorR: Oh shut up :-P 13:17:04 ais523: Yay it's getting further! 13:17:19 * GregorR is hurt D-8 13:17:27 Not very hurt, mind you. 13:17:31 'ts barely a flesh wound. 13:19:48 -!- dbc has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:24:40 -!- dbc has joined. 13:29:55 -!- dbc has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:30:13 -!- dbc has joined. 13:30:39 -!- jix has joined. 13:34:26 ais523, hi 13:34:41 afk too 13:42:45 ais523 is not afk 13:42:53 I'm not afk atm 13:42:58 although I will be soon 13:43:03 i'd know because the bouncer would tell me 13:43:04 :-P 13:49:12 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 13:49:12 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:50:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | shouldn't you just SELECT *. 13:55:28 optbot: Re topic, not everyone has their logs in a relational database. 13:55:29 fizzie: My idea was along the line of writing up something simple, since it's almost 2AM. 13:58:30 fizzie: But they should. 14:01:32 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:01:56 -!- Asztal has joined. 14:13:32 why a relational db? Makes no sense for logs to me 14:14:28 Existing (good) database engines are like that and do indexing and queries well; it's not an especially bad fit for storing logs. 14:14:45 AnMaster: Relations & indexes (see everything said by a certain user), 14:14:52 hm true 14:14:54 interoperability and mashing with other DB-using things, 14:15:01 and excellent query support for finding & filtering things. 14:15:11 Admittedly, the relational part is less important than the database part in that. 14:15:21 ehird, so you have a table with nicks -> number mapping? 14:15:30 AnMaster: nicks->number? 14:15:32 to save space 14:15:34 ;P 14:15:37 Heh. 14:15:41 Well, relations do use ids... 14:15:45 well userid 14:15:47 or something 14:15:48 So yes, you'd have a table with {id,name} 14:15:53 and then 14:15:57 but 14:15:59 {date,nameid,message} 14:16:01 id would more likely be a GUID 14:16:06 as opposed to an autoincrementing integer 14:16:10 (because they aren't really ordered) 14:16:11 and channel 14:16:18 and type of message 14:16:20 Also, I _would_ have that format if I coded my client. 14:16:26 But Colloquy uses some god-awful XML format. 14:16:27 and possibly searchable keywords 14:16:42 It isn't _totally_ unwarranted as far as I can tell though, 14:16:42 ehird, I use plaintext logs 14:16:47 it works well for me 14:16:50 because it's used e.g. to link usernames in the logs 14:16:58 (I can rightclick your 'ehird' there and get options) 14:17:07 14:17:07 ehird 14:17:07 because it's used e.g. to link usernames in the logs 14:17:09 (I can rightclick your 'ehird' there and get options) 14:17:12 14:17:14 ^ Still awful. 14:17:18 ehird, however why do you need to right click nicks in the log? 14:17:25 AnMaster: I dunno. :-) 14:17:27 message *id*? 14:17:36 also 14:17:37 It'd make sense with DB logs - since you'd be able to, e.g. click and search for other messages by that user or whatever. 14:17:42 why span class member 14:17:43 But I don't see any use for it for Colloquy. 14:17:46 seems horrible 14:17:49 AnMaster: for the rightclicking 14:17:51 ehird AnMaster ehird 14:17:54 why not or or something 14:18:04 AnMaster: because the content of 'message' is HTML 14:18:08 there is an actual reason for that - 14:18:09 oh no....... 14:18:09 remember 14:18:12 you can do bold, italics, underline 14:18:13 and colours 14:18:14 on irc 14:18:17 even though that's awful 14:18:21 people DO do it 14:18:28 ehird, you can use colors, but it doesn't use html format at all 14:18:34 AnMaster: yes, but since they're using XML 14:18:40 it is ^Kfg,bg iirc 14:18:45 where fg and bg are numbers 14:18:46 it makes sense just to use XHTML for 14:18:50 not sure if the , is there or not 14:18:51 however, i'm not actually defending it 14:18:53 because it's pretty awful. 14:19:25 http://nkreeger.com/correo/ <- This looks delicious. Thunderbird backend with a Cocoa interface. But does it do threading... 14:19:38 Doesn't seem to say. 14:19:42 I think bold on irc is the formatting code that makes most sense. But even it is awful 14:19:58 AnMaster: I prefer italics, mostly. 14:20:08 ehird, well my client can't show that 14:20:11 so I wouldn't see it 14:20:21 also this channel filter formatting codes 14:21:20 That's why I /msg'd. 14:22:05 Did we happen to have any Pythonistas here currently? 14:22:13 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 14:22:17 " p.s. the fact that your irc client emulates a graphical environment by sending special codes to an emulator of the outmoded terminal model with a standard from the 70s" 14:22:18 err 14:22:18 no 14:22:25 I'm using emacs in X mode atm 14:22:31 Hm. 14:22:34 So emacs can't do italics? 14:22:42 I'm sure I've seen it do so. 14:22:47 ehird, well the client can't 14:22:49 (Although italics on monospaced fonts are pig ugly.) 14:22:51 which is pretty different 14:23:11 ehird, I also got xchat connected to the bnc, no italics there either 14:23:18 bold and inverted worked in both 14:23:38 ehird, italics is the *least* supported control code I think 14:23:51 AnMaster: But italics is delicious 14:23:54 (delicious was in italics there.) 14:24:18 ehird, well that doesn't change the fact that it isn't supported by the majority of the clients 14:24:43 ehird, and yes italics are ok, better than underline anyway 14:24:44 AnMaster: So? 14:24:46 :P 14:24:49 typographically 14:24:49 Also, yeah, underline is useless. 14:25:00 Underline, iirc, was invented for typewriters to use to specify to the printing press to use italics. 14:25:00 ehird, well, links 14:25:06 And, yes, links. 14:25:41 ehird, also if you want to mark something in a printed text you normally either use one of those yellow pens, or you underline it 14:25:58 or maybe circle it 14:26:05 I'd use a highlighter, yeah. :-P 14:26:38 ehird, well yes if I have one where I am I'd use that 14:26:49 assuming that is what the yellow pens are called in English 14:27:22 ehird, ever used that on a recently printed page though? :P 14:27:26 smudge 14:28:01 :-P 14:28:12 I don't believe in paper, so. 14:28:34 well yes 14:28:41 but there are still cases where paper is useful 14:28:43 AnMaster: No I mean really don't believe in paper 14:28:45 All the paper I have on my desk is purely imaginary, then?-) 14:28:46 I don't think paper actually exists 14:28:49 I need more evidence 14:28:49 :P 14:28:58 fizzie: You could be hallucinating. 14:29:13 optbot, does paper exist? 14:29:13 AnMaster: well I"m on a 256k connection. 14:29:22 fungot, does paper exist? 14:29:23 AnMaster: thanks for the pointer. 14:29:24 guess optbot has to use paper, then 14:29:24 ehird: file = memory ... sentinel code ... 14:29:32 cause his connection is too slow to use the web 14:29:40 ehird, hehe 14:30:24 * ehird checks out Thunderbird 3 in the hope that it will look something other than puke-worthy on OS X. 14:30:42 Oh shweet. 14:30:44 It uses Cocoa, apparently. 14:30:59 http://blog.wired.com/monkeybites//thunderbird3.jpg <- That's still an ugly transition from the titlebar to the toolbar. :| 14:31:08 ALso the "Look! We can invent our own tabs!" stuff. 14:31:34 Mac users get another long-awaited feature with Thunderbird 3's ability to integrate with the native OS X Address Book. This rough feature is disabled by default, but developer Bryan Clark posts a work-around for the adventurous. 14:31:36 ^ Hell yes,. 14:32:52 By the way. 14:32:58 What would you people do if you wanted to change email? 14:33:08 Current thoughts: Bounce any incoming email with a message telling people I've changed email 14:33:13 then check it every now and then 14:33:16 and if I see a machine-sent email 14:33:20 change the email it sends to 14:33:21 to my new one 14:35:26 ehird, I wouldn't change email 14:36:01 ehird, also IMO the tabs look good in that screenshot 14:36:03 I'm using gmail via IMAP right now, I'd prefer to use ehird@ehird.net and while I have that chance, it's worth removing my ties to Google. 14:36:15 though the screenshot itself is low quality jpg and low resolution 14:36:27 Also, yes, they look good, but they look out of place with everything else on my dsektop. 14:36:31 Meh. 14:36:33 I'll just use Coreo. 14:36:34 Or whatever. 14:36:34 ehird, also what about tusho.net? 14:36:44 AnMaster: Shrug. 14:36:53 Anyway. 14:36:54 Hmm. 14:37:03 Changing my MSN email will be easy, just export&reimport contacts. 14:38:05 Also, I wonder if Leopard fixed the horrible pile of crap that is Mail.app 14:38:08 ... 14:38:10 Probably not. 14:45:05 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:45:24 Hi 14:45:29 Hi asie. 14:45:44 I am planning to make a portable console. Is there an esolang that fits for it? 14:46:09 Nope... but you had that idea in 2007. 14:46:20 :-P 14:47:05 But now i have a person that can help me 14:47:30 asiekierka: Look through the esolang list? 14:48:20 Or make a fork of some language 14:48:26 that adds some register functions 14:48:55 And centrainly not Brainf**k 14:50:55 Wow. Andrew's Programming Language looks centrainly awesome 14:50:58 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:01:31 ais523, when you are here, why does ick build using ICC show "ICL999I NO SKELETON IN MY CLOSET, WOE IS ME!" when no arguments are given on command line, but when built with gcc it does nothing? 15:01:35 seems very very strange 15:03:33 ais523, also something strange is going on when you have multiple out-of-tree build trees against the same source tree 15:05:03 ah found the cause of the first issue (running from build dir didn't work= 15:05:06 s/=/)/ 15:05:18 the second issue seem to be related to dependency tracking 15:15:27 http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/new-in-labs-stop-sending-mail-you-later.html?foo LMAO 15:23:24 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 15:33:37 ehird, what about timezone? 15:36:28 AnMaster: beats me 15:36:29 :-) 15:45:59 wb ais523 15:46:13 ais523, there? 15:46:25 AnMaster: Yes. 15:46:29 -psyBNC: Tue Oct 7 14:45:48 :connect from ai01-fap01.bham.ac.uk 15:46:30 [15:45] -psyBNC: Tue Oct 7 14:45:48 :User ais523 logged in. 15:46:36 ais523, there is a build issue for ick with icc when using -ipo in CFLAGS 15:46:41 let me rerun it and paste it 15:46:43 thanks 15:48:17 * AnMaster waits for configure 15:48:20 AnMaster: ah, ok 15:48:25 ais523, it seemed to be some linker error 15:48:49 ais523, also you call gcc directly in one place it seems 15:48:52 for oil 15:48:56 just scrolled by 15:48:58 no idea about it 15:49:07 gcc -I. -I../c-intercal -g -O2 -o oil oil-oil.c 15:49:08 yes 15:49:09 CC=icc 15:49:11 ah, is that under the new build system? 15:49:11 yet that happens 15:49:15 I know what's causing that 15:49:15 ais523, yes 15:49:23 it's a bug that only occurs when not cross-compiling 15:49:33 ais523, better fix it, -ipo needs all object files compiled with -ipo 15:49:36 or it won't link 15:49:40 and needs same compiler 15:49:44 AnMaster: it isn't linked to anything 15:49:52 oil is run at build-time, as part of the build process 15:50:00 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/Tc7Udk45.html 15:50:00 it's built for the build system not the host system 15:50:02 is the error 15:50:04 which is why it's using a different compiler 15:50:11 if build != host that would be necessary 15:50:21 OTOH, it does look a little strange when not cross-compiling 15:50:30 ais523, any idea about said error? 15:50:32 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:50:41 * ais523 looks 15:51:04 AnMaster: oil didn't run, obviously 15:51:10 it's referring to a function in generated code 15:51:11 ais523, ipo basically avoids optimising the code until link time in order to let the compiler have a clearer picture of the depndencies between functions 15:51:49 so the object files are some custom format 15:51:54 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/wUV5Fj96.html 15:51:58 is the whole build output 15:52:06 AnMaster: try setting CC_FOR_BUILD=$CC 15:52:07 before the run 15:52:11 *configure 15:52:14 and reconfiguring 15:52:18 hm ok 15:52:23 if that solves it, you've hit a bug I know about already 15:52:27 and will fix some time later 15:52:40 * AnMaster waits 15:52:46 the system is a bit slow, it is a p3 15:52:52 ah, ok 15:53:00 so it will take a few minutes 15:53:07 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 15:53:16 probably doesn't help that I run configure twice, that's another side-effect of the bug 15:53:32 (only INTERCAL could come up with a bug that only happens when /not/ cross-compiling...) 15:53:46 ais523, same error 15:53:52 aargh 15:54:14 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/yetdcp35.html 15:54:19 is the full output 15:54:25 ran from empty build dir before 15:54:47 oh, set CFLAGS_FOR_BUILD too, to the same value as CFLAGS 15:55:01 ais523, also darcs diff is huge, for some reason it decided to generate configure with autoconf 2.63 15:55:04 re-generate* 15:55:14 no, I did that deliberately 15:55:18 I upgraded the build process 15:55:25 ais523, not that 15:55:26 I mean 15:55:26 so you can expect the diffs on the resulting generated code to be massive 15:55:36 it regenerate configure compared to the repo version 15:55:42 with a different version of autotools 15:55:51 ah, automake does that 15:56:00 diff -rN old-c-intercal/aclocal.m4 new-c-intercal/aclocal.m4 15:56:00 16,17c16,17 15:56:00 < m4_if(AC_AUTOCONF_VERSION, [2.61],, 15:56:00 < [m4_warning([this file was generated for autoconf 2.61. 15:56:00 --- 15:56:01 > m4_if(AC_AUTOCONF_VERSION, [2.63],, 15:56:02 if it detects that the build system has changed, it rebuilds the build system first 15:56:03 > [m4_warning([this file was generated for autoconf 2.63. 15:56:05 is how it begines 15:56:05 and then calls itself recursively 15:56:07 then lots and lots more 15:56:23 * AnMaster is waiting for new configure 15:57:28 this doesn't explain how the timetstamps got mangled on the repository, though 15:57:41 ais523, same error 15:57:48 argh, oh dear 15:57:55 the problem is it doesn't seem to find optimise_pass1 at all 15:58:07 AnMaster: can you grep for optimise_pass1 on the resulting directory 15:58:11 and tell me which files it's in? 15:58:11 http://rafb.net/p/XnEjDV60.html 15:58:12 btw 15:58:16 is the last output 15:58:28 ais523, not found in the build directory 15:58:37 ok, that's strange 15:58:38 nor the gcc build directory 15:58:41 and that built fine 15:58:42 is there a file called oilout-m.c 15:58:51 ais523, yes 15:59:05 does it mention optimise_pass1? 15:59:11 ais523, not with that spelling no 15:59:15 it uses american spelling 15:59:21 ... 15:59:30 but if I use different spelling in multiple files 15:59:36 then how on earth did it build at my end? 15:59:42 err the error said optimize_pass1 with z too 15:59:51 it was just you who said with s 15:59:54 ah, ok 15:59:56 sorry 16:00:03 there are *plenty* of optimize_pass1 in the build dir 16:00:21 http://rafb.net/p/3Hzb7420.html 16:00:46 well, that looks correct 16:01:04 ais523, do you link it differently from other code? 16:01:06 or? 16:01:12 it ends up in a library 16:01:26 is oilout-m.c in libidiot.a? 16:01:41 what is the command to check now again? 16:02:04 ar t libidiot.a 16:02:19 yes it is there but with .o not .c 16:02:50 hmm... that makes sense 16:02:56 hm? 16:03:03 it should be with .o right? 16:03:04 the problem is everything seems to be workign fine 16:03:07 and yes, it should be with .o 16:03:17 ais523, hm what about the symbol table for it 16:03:39 AnMaster: does -ipo work when creating a library? 16:03:42 ais523, ok nm says no symbols are exported 16:03:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:03:52 ais523, as far as the man page says, it seems it should 16:04:39 The man page is a lie! 16:05:13 it sounds to me like this is some strange issue with the compiler option, that it doesn't expect files to be bundled into a .a before being linked 16:05:49 ais523, hm.. 16:05:59 ais523, how do you bundle it? 16:06:03 using ar 16:06:30 ais523, ah hm not strange then I suspect 16:06:43 since due to the way it works it can't use standard object files 16:06:54 so I guess using ar mess it up 16:07:17 ais523, and then you try to link it like the *.a contained normal object files 16:07:26 the original idea was a language where the spec says 3sats must be solved in constant time :P 16:07:28 well, it contained -ipo object files 16:07:31 ais523, in fact all the other *.o only contains __ildata_included 16:07:36 linear time would be impressive enough 16:08:59 ais523, and ipo otherwise happens before the creation of the native object file 16:09:57 AnMaster: on line 471 of Makefile.in, replace $(ick_LDADD) with oilout*.o 16:09:58 and remake 16:10:00 does it work then? 16:10:14 well, on the Makefile itself actually 16:10:16 rather than Makefile.in 16:10:19 to save yourself reconfigure time 16:10:26 Makefile.in where? 16:10:34 do it on the makefile itself 16:10:35 ah 16:10:37 -!- asiekierka has joined. 16:10:42 ais523, what line there? 16:10:44 the .in is in buildaux, I put most of the build system there 16:10:48 woah 16:10:51 fungot is Still Alive 16:10:52 asiekierka: note that the case tho?? 16:11:06 was he replaced with a megahalbot? 16:11:11 !bf 16:11:14 AnMaster: it's libidiot.a you have to replace with oilout*.o in the Makefile itself 16:11:17 @bf 16:11:17 and somewhere around 471 16:11:18 It's still the good old fungot. 16:11:18 fizzie: wouldn't it have to be 16:11:18 augh 16:11:27 Fizzie: how do you run the bf interpreter then 16:11:28 !list 16:11:30 !show 16:11:33 !exec 16:11:34 asiekierka: just ... creepy 16:11:34 !exec bf 16:11:36 ^help 16:11:36 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 16:11:39 oh 16:11:40 ^ 16:11:41 :/ 16:11:45 ^show 16:11:45 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi 16:11:48 hmm 16:11:57 ais523, waiting 16:12:00 asiekierka: Here's a nifty flowchart of the fungot source code too: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/fungotsmall.png 16:12:01 fizzie: time exceeded. that makes chez almost 20 years ago 16:12:04 ^reverb abcde 16:12:05 aabbccddee 16:12:20 ^hi there 16:12:26 ^show hi 16:12:26 fizzie: wow 16:12:32 it's GI GAN TIC 16:12:33 ais523, linking still in progress 16:12:37 Hmm. 'hi' doesn't seem to do much. 16:12:38 do you have one of those rainbow-colourised versions? 16:12:44 of the source? 16:12:46 ^show reverb 16:12:46 ,[..,] 16:12:48 ais523, yes it works now 16:12:50 where program flow is shown with colourful lines? 16:12:50 ^show rev 16:12:50 >,[>,]<.[<.] 16:12:58 ais523, why do you link it into an archive first btw? 16:13:00 AnMaster: ok, it's -ipo strangeness 16:13:09 and it's linked into an archive to get the dependencies rights 16:13:10 ^rev !dlorw ,olleH 16:13:11 Hello, wrold!. 16:13:11 *right 16:13:12 ah 16:13:12 ^rev hello ver^ 16:13:12 ais523: Sorry, no. I did think about "syntax-highlighting" it though. 16:13:12 ^rev olleh. 16:13:14 oops 16:13:15 :/ 16:13:15 as it contains a variable number of files 16:13:24 ^rev hello ver^ 16:13:24 ^rev olleh. 16:13:25 ^rev hello ver^ 16:13:25 ^rev olleh. 16:13:26 ^rev hello ver^ 16:13:26 ^rev olleh. 16:13:59 ^def rev2 bf ,>[,>]<.[<.] 16:13:59 Defined. 16:14:05 ^rev2 test 16:14:05 t. 16:14:08 Hmm 16:14:11 Oh 16:14:11 right 16:14:13 sillyme 16:14:21 ^def rev2 bf >,[>,].<[.<] 16:14:21 Defined. 16:14:23 ^rev2 test 16:14:24 .tset 16:14:29 Hmm 16:14:32 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:14:32 ^def rev2 bf >,[>,]<.<[.<] 16:14:33 Defined. 16:14:33 ais523, now lets try... hm 16:14:34 ^rev2 test 16:14:34 tset 16:14:37 Yay 16:14:41 ^rev2 Hello, world! 16:14:41 !dlrow ,olleH 16:14:45 ^rev2 x 16:14:46 x 16:14:47 I just improved the rev script 16:14:48 ais523, fail to build programs 16:14:52 ^def rev bf >,[>,]<.<[.<] 16:14:53 Defined. 16:14:54 ais523, seems you don't use icc to do that 16:14:56 yaaay 16:14:58 ^show rev 16:14:58 >,[>,]<.<[.<] 16:15:00 ais523, so stuff collide *badly* 16:15:10 AnMaster: during the build of ick itself 16:15:15 or during the compilation of an INTERCAL program? 16:15:17 How is that ^rev an improvement? 16:15:22 ais523, the latter 16:15:33 set CC in your environment, does it work then? 16:15:41 ick doesn't honour CFLAGS though so you'll have to merge it into CC 16:15:42 ^rev !dlorw ,olleH 16:15:42 Hello, wrold!. 16:15:42 asiekierka: the eval thing would be done in the interpretor itself, like " does firefox resume downloads" 16:15:46 It doesn't add the "dot" 16:15:47 http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/ Linus has a blog, hell freezes over. 16:15:50 ais523, ah you use ar for that too? Hm 16:15:59 ais523, well I guess the installed libraries got broken then 16:16:22 ^rev AnMaster 16:16:22 retsaMnA 16:16:28 ^rev ais523 16:16:28 325sia 16:16:39 AnMaster: yes, definitely 16:16:39 Actually the original ^rev I had there didn't add any dots either. Someone has messed with it. 16:16:43 asiekierka, did you want something since you highlighted 16:16:44 ^def rev bf >,[>,]<[.<] 16:16:44 Defined. 16:16:45 ? 16:16:47 ^rev Yay. 16:16:47 .yaY 16:16:52 Automake doesn't seem to handle -ipo 16:16:54 ^rev test1 16:16:55 1tset 16:16:57 Yeah 16:16:58 this also work 16:17:01 s 16:17:02 because it doesn't know what it's building for 16:17:05 asiekierka, well what did you want? 16:17:10 exactly that 16:17:14 the problem is that you aren't compiling a single program when building C-INTERCAL 16:17:20 asiekierka, you highlighted me. So what important thing did you want? 16:17:22 you're compiling a program and some tools and some libraries 16:17:26 ^rot13 Furrfu! 16:17:27 Sheesh! 16:17:40 oerjan: that's one of the best rot-13'd words I've seen ever 16:17:42 ais523, yes hm 16:18:01 ais523: it's old, from the Usenet days 16:18:44 ais523, Also something is wrong when building using clang 16:18:49 Also an alt.folklore.urban thing; used to lurk in that group once. 16:18:53 do you know what it is yet? 16:18:55 ^rot13 AVGN 16:18:55 NITA 16:18:56 (Furrfu, I mean.) 16:18:59 uh... 16:19:01 NITA? 16:19:12 yeah i did too 16:19:13 ais523, building ick works, but ick can't build 16:19:20 ^rot13 ick 16:19:21 vpx 16:19:27 uh... another secret? 16:19:32 ^rot13 asiekierka 16:19:33 nfvrxvrexn 16:19:38 That is sadly nonsense 16:19:42 Oh well, will stop spamming 16:19:50 AnMaster: have you set CC in the environment? 16:19:50 I would 16:19:53 if fungot was in #esoteric-blah 16:19:54 asiekierka: 4 as digit or as log? 16:20:03 ^raw JOIN #esoteric-blah 16:20:14 I really need to get CC to filter down from configure to the default compiler for ick 16:20:18 ais523, do you use ar directly? 16:20:24 $(AR) I think 16:20:24 instead of some env variable 16:20:27 ah hm 16:20:32 which configure substitutes with AR 16:20:34 *ar 16:20:37 will try with that set to llvm-ar then 16:20:58 what's the compiler called? llvm-cc? 16:21:02 ccc 16:21:05 ah, ok 16:21:10 ais523, it is a wrapper script for clang 16:21:22 ais523, since clang doesn't have the same command line options 16:21:24 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:22:02 ^fib 16:22:04 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ... 16:22:20 And yes, we have a handy fibonacci number table now 16:22:32 ais523, the actual compiler is clang 16:22:36 yes 16:23:04 *clang* 16:23:13 oerjan, clang.llvm.org 16:23:52 ais523, hm now it happens again, make install when using clang/ccc cause a recompile of most stuff 16:23:56 even when make was run before 16:23:57 * oerjan hits AnMaster over the head with a sauce pan. *clang* 16:24:14 oerjan, well lucky I had a helmet on 16:24:24 otherwise it would have been "crack" 16:24:26 oh noes the sauce pan broke ===\_/\_/ 16:24:55 i knew swedes have thick heads, thus no danger 16:25:18 ok that was strange 16:25:20 same error 16:25:46 ais523, what about other tools? 16:25:50 ais523, ranlib and such 16:26:14 and are you sure AR=llvm-ar passed to configure will make it use llvm-ar? 16:27:02 llvm-as, llvm-ar, llvm-ld, llvm-ranlib, should be used instead of the "native" ones 16:27:28 http://rafb.net/p/izlM5t18.html 16:27:56 ^show 16:27:57 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc 16:28:04 * oerjan is _shocked_ that ais523 didn't know about 3sat 16:28:13 oerjan: so am I 16:28:25 3sat? 16:28:41 ais523, no configure says: 16:28:42 AnMaster: Automake's source for that is strange 16:28:43 checking for ranlib... ranlib 16:28:47 should say llvm-ranlib 16:28:53 AnMaster: famous np-complete problem 16:28:53 maybe doing it as a cross-compile would work better? 16:28:55 since I used RANLIB=llvm-ranlib 16:29:01 on the command line 16:29:05 ais523, eh? 16:29:12 configure build=i686-linux-pc-gnu host=llvm 16:29:24 that almost works except the compiler has to be called llvm-cc for that to work 16:29:28 ais523, err host is i686-linux-pc-gnu 16:29:46 ais523, I got to be able to tell it to use a specific tool for ranlib and such 16:29:51 well, host determines the set of tools you use to build 16:29:53 I'm quite sure it works for other configure 16:30:01 what happens if you do make RANLIB=llvm-ranlib? 16:30:34 ais523, to configure? well it seems it use it in Makefile after all, 16:30:36 but not ar 16:30:37 it says: 16:30:39 ar cru libyuk.a yuk.o 16:30:40 still 16:30:43 instead of llvm-ar 16:30:49 but then 16:30:50 llvm-ranlib libyuk.a 16:30:52 on the next line 16:30:58 weird... 16:31:02 ais523, so that explains why AR didn't help 16:31:14 ais523, it use the system ar 16:31:16 not the llvm one 16:31:26 looks like I'll have to look into the automake source 16:31:29 and do even more weird stuff 16:31:29 and I passed AR=llvm-ar 16:31:31 to get that to work 16:31:53 AR = ar 16:31:56 in the Makefile 16:32:01 which is plain wrong 16:32:47 ais523, setting AR have worked for other automake/autoconf based projects though 16:32:57 so I suspect the issue is with how you use it 16:33:08 possilby 16:33:10 *possibly 16:33:12 I'll look into it 16:33:15 AC_PROG_RANLIB 16:33:18 you have that 16:33:21 yes 16:33:22 but nothing for AR? 16:33:29 I think I have something for it 16:33:33 probably this is a bug in automake 16:34:01 ais523, yet setting AR on command line works fine for many other automake based projects 16:34:13 I'll look into it some time 16:35:52 ais523, I edited directly in makefile 16:35:53 lets see 16:36:27 ais523, also please see http://rafb.net/p/yaqSb731.html 16:36:30 when I do make install below 16:36:34 it recompile lots 16:36:36 any idea why? 16:36:43 was something not built properly first time or? 16:36:55 it could be 16:37:05 also messing with the build process tends to cause a recompile in automake 16:37:08 ais523, every time I do make install it begins recompiling stuff 16:37:09 also, check your system clock 16:37:14 that's bad 16:37:19 ais523, set with ntp 16:37:29 and it did the same for clang even before I set ar and such 16:38:13 ais523, and even with llvm-ar I still get linking errors for intercal programs 16:38:21 ah, ok 16:38:28 maybe I'll download llvm myself some time and have a go 16:38:31 ais523, what is the command to dump the compiler command line? 16:38:41 ais523, for clang you need svn version of llvm 16:38:49 from same day for both main llvm and clang 16:38:51 AnMaster: -### in gcc, I think 16:39:02 not that that's a particularly easy option to type in bash 16:39:03 ais523, well for dumping C file from intercal then 16:39:14 -c 16:39:43 ais523, well you use -lick there 16:39:49 if I provide the path to the *.a instead 16:39:51 it works 16:39:55 was the library search path wrong? 16:40:01 or does -l do something different? 16:40:06 I have -L set to everywhere the library might be 16:40:13 hm 16:40:18 library search path looks right 16:40:22 could be a bug in ccc 16:41:01 ccc beer.c -I/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/include/ick-0.29 -I/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/bin -I/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/bin/../include -L/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/lib -L/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/bin -L/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/bin/../lib -O2 -o beer -lick 16:41:15 why is bin in there 16:41:18 seems very odd 16:41:29 and lib is in it twice 16:41:33 AnMaster: ick works if you dump everything into the same directory 16:41:44 and two different algorithms for finding the libraries come out to the same path 16:41:54 ais523, ugh :P 16:42:07 I use lots of tries to find the locations of stuff 16:42:16 because NO SKELETON IN MY CLOSET is probably the most common ick error message ever 16:42:20 due to people screwing up the install 16:42:29 it even happened to me a few times... 16:42:41 ais523, well a quick strace showed it failed to open ickwrap.c or something like that 16:42:49 so I could see a make install was needed 16:44:11 $ CCC_ECHO=1 ccc beer.c -I/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/include/ick-0.29 -I/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/bin -I/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/bin/../include -L/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/lib -L/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/bin -L/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/lib -O2 -o beer -lick 16:44:11 clang -emit-llvm-bc -x c -o beer.o beer.c -I/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/include/ick-0.29 -I/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/bin -I/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/bin/../include 16:44:12 llvm-ld -native -disable-internalize -o beer -L/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/lib -L/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/bin -L/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/lib -lick beer.o 16:44:15 hm 16:44:21 that llvm-ld call does look bad indeed 16:44:36 * AnMaster test changing place between -lick and beer.o 16:44:52 oh it works then. heh 16:44:55 well that explains it 16:44:59 a ccc bug 16:45:19 now to create a minimal test case so I can file a bug 16:45:24 don't have time right no 16:45:26 now* 16:45:30 will do it a bit later 16:46:03 ais523, also ick should use the same CC as when it was compiled if $CC isn't set 16:46:04 IMO 16:46:17 and if it isn't found fall back to plain /usr/bin/cc 16:49:27 ais523, wow tcc was fast, it compiled ick in less than 5 seconds on this pentium3 16:50:37 ICL000I DO CREATE (8200) GET CONTINUATION IN .1 GETTING .2 16:50:40 ais523, err what? 16:50:44 from continuation.i 16:50:48 AnMaster: wrong settings for the compilation 16:50:51 you need to give -ma 16:50:51 CC='/home/anmaster/local/tcc/bin/tcc' /home/anmaster/local/ick-tcc/bin/ick -bm continuation.i 16:50:55 a? 16:50:56 for that code 16:51:00 enable CREATE statements 16:51:07 without that they're going to parse as syntax errors 16:51:10 ais523, also it compiled fine, just didn't run 16:51:17 ah right 16:52:27 -F :unsupported on computers without sh or bash 16:52:32 shouldn't it say something more 16:52:37 than just unsupported on 16:52:44 AnMaster: well, the option is unsupported 16:52:48 because your computer doesn't have sh or bash 16:52:52 ais523, I do have it 16:52:54 it is linux 16:52:57 well, presumably it does but configure got confused 16:52:59 I'm using /bin/bash currently 16:53:14 $ bash --version 16:53:14 GNU bash, version 3.2.39(1)-release (i686-pc-linux-gnu) 16:53:31 ais523, also how the heck did configure think it ran without sh? 16:54:16 I'm not sure 16:54:20 -C :ick_clockface output (e.g. use IIII instead of IV) <-- hm?? 16:54:20 it checks for #! on shell scripts 16:54:32 most clocks I seen use IV 16:54:32 AnMaster: oh dear, that's a find and replace gone astray 16:54:40 and it's a superstition thing 16:54:48 -!- ehird has changed nick to Phill. 16:54:51 ais523, eh? 16:54:51 writing IV upside-down offends Jupiter, or something like that 16:54:56 oh 16:54:57 -!- Phill has changed nick to ehird. 16:55:01 and what about search and replace? 16:55:08 what did you mean? 16:55:33 IVPPITER, you mean 16:55:50 oerjan: polynomial time would be impressive enough, methinks 16:56:20 also 3sat is actually np-COMPLETE, right? or is it just np 16:56:41 ais523, what was the option for using the c syslib now again? 16:56:56 it's complete 16:57:02 i thought so too 16:57:51 but then my booker had the caption "the first np complete problem", and there a different problem there, while 3sat had already been explained 16:57:54 AnMaster: -eE syslibc 16:58:03 syslibc has to be after the INTERCAL program on the command line 16:58:08 but, i guess it was more like "the first np complete problem we prove to be np-complete" 16:58:11 but the -eE has to be before 16:58:14 and my hyphenation rocks 16:58:15 ais523, and in current directory? 16:58:16 or ? 16:58:22 * AnMaster is confused over that 16:58:27 it's ick -eE primes.i syslibc 16:58:28 or such 16:58:34 syslibc is found automatically from where it's been installed 16:58:40 no extension means expansion library 16:58:41 tcc: invalid option -- '--std=c89' 16:58:41 tcc: invalid option -- '--std=c89' 16:58:41 ais523, ? 16:58:48 tcc: unsupported linker option '-z,muldefs' 16:58:49 too 16:58:59 ah, -e is only intended to work with gcc and gld 16:59:06 as opposed to everything else which is generic 16:59:12 I may manage to generalise it some day 16:59:12 ais523, in practise it works with icc too 16:59:18 also the example problem was that one where you have gates and sources, and try to get a result, which is actually quite trivial to compile to 3sat 16:59:25 ais523, and a few other ones 16:59:28 oklocod: reduction from sat to 3sat is rather easy iirc 16:59:37 oerjan: yes, but that's not SAT 17:00:09 because you have a dag, which can contain all kinds of boolean logic, you need to do some manipulation; then again it is a simpler step from an arbitrary expression to sat than it's from sat to 2sat 17:00:11 no but SAT was the first 17:00:11 *3sat 17:00:28 ohhh 17:00:37 ais523, clang if you work around the bug in cc 17:00:39 ccc* 17:00:45 ah, good 17:00:46 so you think the caption could be about the actual *first* np-complete problem found? 17:00:58 well if it is about SAT yes 17:01:05 well, this is really a bfimmery point. 17:01:11 ais523, but working around that bug is non-trivial in ccc, because my hackish fix to it breaks for other programs 17:01:19 and it is coded in python 17:01:23 so I can't really fix it better 17:01:28 since I don't know python well 17:01:42 oklocod: bfimmmery? 17:01:57 oerjan: sat is just 3-sat with larger clauses right? then it's technically not the same, because the gate thing has nested operations and suchamathings. 17:02:02 ais523: yes. 17:02:10 oh 17:02:14 noooo, just two m's 17:02:23 ais523, worked out the issue with -F? 17:02:24 or? 17:02:26 typo... 17:02:27 bfimmery means something i don't care about, i only care about things that mean something 17:02:36 ais523, ah, so darcs pull will fix it? 17:02:36 AnMaster: not now, I've just caused /huge/ chaos in #really-a-cow 17:02:45 ais523: I was replying to oklocod 17:02:54 I don't really have time to work on C-INTERCAL build today 17:02:58 ais523, *generic inquiry about that odd channel name* 17:03:09 AnMaster: ehird chose it 17:03:11 not me 17:03:23 ais523, and what happened? + do I want to join? 17:03:29 AnMaster: Agora-related. 17:03:30 oklocod: yeah 17:03:33 what happened was a big fuss 17:03:33 ah no then 17:03:35 If you don't have an interest in Agora nomic, no. 17:03:37 and do you want to join, probably not 17:03:57 oerjan: do you know about network flow problems? 17:04:12 ais523, --help seems to indicate -F is broken for all my icks 17:04:21 must be an autoconf bug then 17:04:22 what the heck is #really-a-cow 17:04:22 ais523, but if I want to debug it, where should I look? 17:04:26 (i'm just generally interested in mapping people's knowledge compared to mine) 17:04:31 and probably config.log 17:04:40 oerjan: it's a scam, it's a hoax 17:04:58 ais523, that is over 2600 lines 17:04:59 there's a line saying something like "checking if #! works in shell scripts" 17:04:59 so 17:05:03 ah right a se 17:05:05 sec* 17:05:06 grep for #! 17:05:12 oerjan: it's an Agoran public forum. 17:05:13 Possibly. 17:05:20 buildconfig:4996: checking whether #! works in shell scripts 17:05:28 buildconfig:4996: checking whether #! works in shell scripts 17:05:28 buildconfig:5013: result: yes 17:05:29 even 17:05:30 oklocod: the name network flow problems sounds familiar 17:05:40 ais523, so "huh"? 17:05:47 yep, huh over here too 17:05:58 probably config.h broke, or something like that 17:06:00 ais523, using #ifdef when you meant #ifndef or something? 17:06:07 ais523, what define in config.h? 17:06:09 yep, that seems a likely possibility 17:06:13 AnMaster: it's generated by configure 17:06:18 and basically holds all the configure results 17:06:19 ais523, yes with lots of define 17:06:26 something_INTERPRETER, IIRC 17:06:27 you have a graph, edges have capacities, you try to find a maximum flow from a source node to the sink node, a flow means you send N units of data through different routes, and try to maximize the number of units that reach the sink 17:06:29 so what is the one supposed to be shell script 17:06:44 an edge can only carry so much units of flow 17:06:45 #define HAVE_SYS_INTERPRETER /**/ 17:06:46 that? 17:06:51 which seems bloody strange 17:07:03 defining it to a comment is sure to break something 17:07:20 defining it to 1 seems more logical 17:07:23 has tons of different applications, most of which are in the grey zone i automatically assume np-complete. 17:07:48 oklocod: it does sound familiar 17:08:32 ais523, ? 17:08:42 AnMaster: yes, that is strange 17:08:53 htf did configure manage that? 17:08:57 ais523, no clue 17:09:16 oerjan: you vaguely recall how it works, then? 17:09:36 ais523, however configure differs on my other system with older autoconf 17:09:44 so I guess they changed something in later versions 17:09:49 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:09:49 anmaster@phoenix ~/ick/build_gcc $ grep HAVE_SYS_INTERPRETER ../c-intercal/configure 17:09:49 #define HAVE_SYS_INTERPRETER /**/ 17:09:55 arvid@tux ~/src/c-intercal $ grep HAVE_SYS_INTERPRETER * 17:09:55 configure:#define HAVE_SYS_INTERPRETER 17:10:08 hmm... yes 17:10:30 oklocod: hmph, the wikipedia articles on flow networks say nothing about NP-completeness 17:10:46 perhaps it's a simpler class 17:10:58 it is, yes 17:11:00 that's the point 17:11:06 -!- slereah has joined. 17:11:07 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:11:15 ais523, also both configure and buildaux/buildconfig lacked +x and that caused errors at configure time until I fixed it 17:11:17 ah 17:11:27 AnMaster: that's darcs' fault, it'll be fine in release tarballs 17:11:32 but it can't track +x for some reason 17:11:32 it has tons of uses, can be done in p, and many of the problems it's used on seem np-y to me. 17:11:35 ais523, hm 17:11:47 it's kinda sexy, i mean 17:11:52 need to go read -> 17:12:14 ais523, anyway it just re-generated autotools on my other system too, lets see if that mess up HAVE_SYS_INTERPRETER or not 17:12:15 * AnMaster waits 17:12:49 nop 17:12:53 no /**/ there 17:13:06 ais523, my conclusion is something changed in 2.63 compared with 2.61 17:13:11 yes, probably 17:13:13 I'll have to fix that 17:13:23 configure.ac:AC_DEFINE([HAVE_SYS_INTERPRETER], [], [Define if #! works on your system.]) 17:15:13 looks like you don't set it to any value ais523 ? 17:15:31 there should be an AC_SUBST somewhere which sets the value 17:15:35 from a shell variable with the same name 17:15:42 hmm... ah, I know what's happening 17:15:50 it must have been obsoleted and removed 17:16:00 and autoupdate decided to effectively comment it out 17:16:48 ais523, hm? 17:17:05 ais523, if it did it would have told you? 17:17:09 probably not 17:17:16 I'll look into that too sometime 17:17:18 probably next week 17:18:36 ais523, autoupdate change stuff on 2.63 though 17:18:38 want a diff? 17:18:52 http://rafb.net/p/h5bbOR62.html 17:19:31 ais523, no idea how much that change will affect you 17:19:47 probably breaks on DOS :P 17:20:08 AnMaster: ugh, "safely assume" is the wrong direction 17:20:18 ais523, well that is your issue :P 17:20:18 maybe I should have a library of obsolete autoconf tests 17:20:21 not mine 17:20:28 ais523, contact the authors? 17:20:29 so things work where the safe assumptions are wrong.. 17:20:36 AnMaster: nah, they won't change autoconf just for INTERCAL 17:20:41 I sort of prefer it this way... 17:20:46 ais523, but it breaks on some platforms? 17:28:44 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:37:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 17:44:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("Fru Ibsens ripsbusker og andre buskvekster"). 17:46:05 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:46:17 -!- ae5ir has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:01:21 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:04:18 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:12:37 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:14:20 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:14:54 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:16:45 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 18:17:03 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:17:05 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:21:56 -!- asiekierka has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:22:18 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:33:00 -!- asiekiekka has joined. 18:33:07 -!- asiekierka has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:33:08 -!- asiekiekka has changed nick to asiekierka. 18:42:26 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 19:00:09 someone should write a book about agora, i mean, it would be interesting to see its evolution. 19:03:12 -!- BMeph has joined. 19:04:43 -!- BMeph has quit (Client Quit). 19:12:16 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:16:58 oklocod: well 19:17:02 the agoran weekly journal 19:17:04 -!- olsner has joined. 19:28:15 hey is there a brainfuck bot in here 19:28:36 yes 19:28:45 cool who 19:28:50 ^def bf copy ,[.,] 19:28:50 Usage: ^def 19:28:56 ^def copy bf ,[.,] 19:28:57 Defined. 19:29:00 ^copy This is a test. 19:29:00 This is a test. 19:29:09 I think that answers your question 19:30:43 ^def bf badrot13 ,[+++++++++++++.,] 19:30:44 Usage: ^def 19:30:57 ^def badrot13 bf ,[+++++++++++++.,] 19:30:57 Defined. 19:31:06 CO2Games: Yes, that is a bad rot13. 19:31:10 ^badrot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 19:31:10 nopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ 19:31:13 thus the name 19:31:15 ^rot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 19:31:16 nopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklm 19:31:26 we have some commands programmed into fungot already 19:31:26 ais523: the chamber is closed. i am just dealing with the stack 19:31:27 <_< 19:31:32 ohh ok 19:31:37 ^md5 hellooo 19:31:46 no md5, though, I'm afraid 19:31:53 ^whirlpool hi 19:31:58 it wouldn't fit in one line of IRC, I don't think 19:32:00 ^show 19:32:00 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc aaa enctst copy badrot13 19:32:10 ^show aaa 19:32:10 +[<+33.]+[>+33.][]+10[>+18>+7>+<3-] 19:32:18 ^fib 19:32:20 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ... 19:32:24 ^fib lol? 19:32:25 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ... 19:32:27 ^show fib 19:32:27 >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][] 19:32:53 what language is that 19:32:58 CO2Games: Brainfuck. 19:33:00 fungot uses brainfuck 19:33:00 ais523: what's this supposed to impress?" 19:33:03 with +++++ turned into +5 19:33:04 but with run-length encoding 19:33:05 what's with the numbers 19:33:06 for optimization 19:33:09 oh 19:33:17 you type +++++ 19:33:23 ahh ok 19:33:23 but fungot stores it as +5 19:33:24 ais523: do you plan on mutating an object's set of parents? 19:33:27 isn't that right, optbot? 19:33:28 ais523: and his binary is stripped 19:34:38 ^def chtopic bf 19:34:38 Usage: ^def 19:34:49 guys what character is ! 19:34:55 33 19:35:02 and what is lowercase a 19:35:06 97 19:35:12 mhhmm...ok 19:38:26 ^def chtopic bf +++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>++++++++++++.+.++++.------------------.+++++++++++++.+++++.>+++[>+++++++++++<-]>. 19:38:26 Defined. 19:38:33 ^chtopic 19:38:33 optbot! 19:38:33 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | so not a tree. 19:38:36 woo 19:38:55 ^show chtopic 19:38:55 +9[>+11<-]>+12.+.+4.-18.+13.+5.>+3[>+11<-]>. 19:38:58 nice 19:39:20 I should save that code 19:40:03 ^chtopic 19:40:03 optbot! 19:40:03 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | befunge*. 19:40:28 damn I got it right on my first try 19:40:33 '^chtopic' 19:40:34 I did some sort of magic or shit 19:40:34 'optbot!' 19:40:35 ehird: Note to self: Don't do that :P 19:40:38 optbot is shorter. 19:40:38 ehird: * = using 19:40:49 optbot 19:40:49 CO2Games: while (*s++){} 19:40:54 lol 19:42:04 what other languages does fungot support? 19:42:05 CO2Games: abum pasted " list?" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord 19:42:30 ^undef chtopic 19:42:46 ^help 19:42:46 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 19:42:53 there isn't an ^undef apparently 19:43:01 fungot was written in Befunge 19:43:01 ais523: but there are more issues than you've got teeth! 19:43:11 so it's not surprising that it doesn't have all that many features, as it admits itself 19:43:22 ^def top bf +++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>++++++++++++.+.++++.------------------.+++++++++++++.+++++.>+++[>+++++++++++<-]>. 19:43:22 Defined. 19:43:25 really? 19:43:28 that's amazing 19:43:40 fizzie: go and boast at CO2Games, you deserve it 19:44:07 fungot: top 19:44:07 CO2Games: thanks, i shall arbitrarily post a link to 19:44:12 what 19:44:17 ^top 19:44:17 optbot! 19:44:18 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>->+>>+[<]<-]>>.>>---.+++++++..+++.>.<<-.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>++.. 19:44:24 wtfh O_O 19:44:39 I gotta try that code out 19:45:26 ^def topiccode bf ++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>->+>>+[<]<-]>>.>>---.+++++++..+++.>.<<-.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>++. 19:45:26 Defined. 19:45:31 ^topiccode 19:45:31 Hello World!. 19:45:44 oh 19:45:52 that's a shitty hello world 19:46:36 it's unusual, actually 19:46:46 rare to see nested loops in a BF-based hello world 19:46:59 especially with unbalanced loops like [<] 19:50:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and !markend Conversation theme. 19:56:43 ^def compat_cat >+[++++++++++>,----------][<]>>[.>] 19:56:44 Usage: ^def 19:56:50 ^def compat_cat bf >+[++++++++++>,----------][<]>>[.>] 19:56:50 Defined. 19:56:59 ^compat_cat lol 19:57:07 ...out of time! 19:57:08 ...shit it cut out my newline 19:57:11 lol 19:57:25 ^compat_cat lol\n 19:57:30 suck 19:57:33 ...out of time! 19:57:46 ^def compat_cat bf >+[>,][<]>>[.>] 19:57:46 Defined. 19:57:53 ^help 19:57:53 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 19:58:06 ^show 19:58:06 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc aaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat 19:58:12 ^compat_cat 19:58:29 ^compat_cat ohai 19:58:38 ^help 19:58:39 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 19:58:47 ^compat_cat hello 19:59:17 ^badrot13 123456789 19:59:18 >?@ABCDEF 19:59:51 ^badrot13 M 19:59:51 Z 19:59:56 ^badrot13 MNOP 19:59:56 Z[\] 19:59:59 aha 20:00:02 ^badrot13 MNOPQ 20:00:02 Z[\]^ 20:00:08 ^badrot13 MNOPQRSTUVWXYZ 20:00:08 Z[\]^_`abcdefg 20:00:26 ^badrot13 ñ 20:00:27 .. 20:00:32 ^badrot13 Ñ 20:00:33 .. 20:00:34 ^def trulyawfulrot13 ,[.+,] 20:00:35 Usage: ^def 20:00:37 ^badrot13 é 20:00:37 .. 20:00:39 ^def trulyawfulrot13 bf ,[.+,] 20:00:40 Defined. 20:00:45 ^trulyawfulrot13 abcde 20:00:45 abcde 20:01:05 yeah that rot13 is more of a rot1 20:01:10 it's actually a rot0 20:01:14 but doesn't work right so 20:01:16 of course 20:01:17 because I put the + in the wrong place 20:01:20 you need to move the + back 20:01:24 yes, I knkow 20:01:29 ^top 20:01:30 optbot! 20:01:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I imagine it doesn't have a full first-order logic system taking full advantage of the Curry-Howard isomorphism and all.. 20:02:49 ^d me bf +.[]+++++.,[.,] 20:02:52 ^def rot26 bf ,[.,] 20:02:52 Defined. 20:02:52 hey uhh 20:02:55 ^rot26 test 20:02:55 test 20:03:02 what is the character for space? 20:03:05 32 20:03:10 ok 20:05:42 Yes, uh, http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt are fungot's sources. 20:05:43 fizzie: the only portable way is tricky 20:06:25 Indeed there is no ^undef, I would have had to copy things around since I don't want to leave empty spaces where the commands are defined... around row 2000 or so in Funge-space. 20:06:31 ^def me bf +.++++++[>++++++++++<-]>+++++.++.+++++++++++++++++.-----------.++++++.-.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.,[.,]+. 20:06:31 Defined. 20:06:34 ^me lol 20:06:35 .KM^SYX lol. 20:06:37 wtf 20:06:45 hmm I think I screwed up somewhere 20:07:32 ^show me 20:07:33 +.+6[>+10<-]>+5.+2.+17.-11.+6.-.>+4[>+8<-]>.,[.,]+. 20:08:00 ^def me bf [+]+.++++++[>++++++++++<-]>+++++.++.+++++++++++++++++.-----------.++++++.-.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.,[.,]+. 20:08:00 Defined. 20:08:03 ^me lol 20:08:03 .KM^SYX lol. 20:08:06 wtfh 20:08:44 why KM^SYX 20:09:17 75 == K; you're doing p[0] = 7; p[1] = p[0]*10; p[1] += 5; putchar(p[1]); in the beginning. 20:09:39 ^def me bf [+]+.+++++[>++++++++++<-]>+++++.++.+++++++++++++++++.-----------.++++++.-.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.,[.,]+. 20:09:40 Defined. 20:09:43 ^me lol 20:09:43 .ACTION lol. 20:09:50 fucker cut out my /001's 20:09:58 Yes, it filters all <32 into a '.'. 20:10:05 that blows dick 20:10:20 sort of 20:10:33 People kept making it do things; even ^raw was unlimited in the beginning. 20:10:43 ^raw? 20:10:45 ^raw 20:10:50 ^show raw 20:11:24 ^me 20:11:25 .ACTION . 20:11:31 ^me fungot 20:11:31 .ACTION fungot. 20:11:54 ^echo penis 20:11:55 penis penis 20:11:58 wtf 20:12:04 ^echo omgwtf 20:12:05 omgwtf omgwtf 20:12:07 ^show echo 20:12:08 >,[.>,]<[<]+32[.>] 20:12:11 ........... 20:13:03 Well, it's an _echo_. 20:14:05 +32 is there because? 20:14:18 ^def echochohoo >[,>]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<] 20:14:18 Usage: ^def 20:14:19 So that there's a space between the repetitions, it looks silly otherwise. 20:14:24 ^def echochohoo bf >[,>]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<] 20:14:24 Defined. 20:14:31 ^echochohohoo Hello, world! 20:14:57 ^echochohohoo Hmm? 20:14:57 it breaks at start 20:14:59 ^def echochohoo bf >,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<] 20:14:59 Defined. 20:15:02 skips the first loop rofl 20:15:04 ^echochohohoo Hello, world! 20:15:12 roflolololololololololomgwtfbbq 20:15:15 ^echochohoo Urgh. 20:15:16 Urgh.rgh.gh.h.. 20:15:16 this also happens later 20:15:20 oh 20:15:24 No, the command invocation was just wrong. 20:15:27 One too many 'ho's. 20:15:31 oh heh 20:15:31 ^echochohoo Hello, world! 20:15:31 Hello, world!ello, world!llo, world!lo, world!o, world!, world! world!world!orld!rld!ld!d!! 20:15:56 ^echochohoo Hello, world! 20:15:56 Hello, world!ello, world!llo, world!lo, world!o, world!, world! world!world!orld!rld!ld!d!! 20:16:03 bitch cut out my space 20:16:15 ^echochohoo echo 20:16:15 echochohoo 20:16:17 ^echochohoo Hello, world!. 20:16:18 Hello, world!.ello, world!.llo, world!.lo, world!.o, world!., world!. world!.world!.orld!.rld!.ld!.d!.!.. 20:16:44 heh 20:16:46 Hmm, it shouldn't trim anything. 20:16:52 ^echochohoo foo 20:16:52 fooooo 20:17:02 fizzie: probably IRC trims trailing spaces 20:17:04 ^echochohoo echo 20:17:04 echoechochohoo 20:17:19 hmm... 20:17:21 ^echochohoo !@#$%^&*()_/*- 20:17:21 !@#$%^&*()_/*-@#$%^&*()_/*-#$%^&*()_/*-$%^&*()_/*-%^&*()_/*-^&*()_/*-&*()_/*-*()_/*-()_/*-)_/*-_/*-/*-*-- 20:17:21 that'st strange 20:17:30 ais523: I'm not sure about Freenode; IRCnet didn't, because I used to escape our "answers all things which ends in a ?" bot by adding a space. 20:17:53 ^echochohoo >,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<] 20:17:53 >,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<],[>,]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<][>,]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<]>,]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<],]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<]]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<][[<]>.[-]>[.>]<][<]>.[-]>[.>]<]<]>.[-]>[.>]<]]>.[-]>[.>]<]>.[-]>[.> ... 20:18:14 ^echochohoo ,[.,] 20:18:14 ,[.,][.,].,],]] 20:18:27 It's something channel-specific, actually. 20:18:27 ^def lolercakes bf ,[.,][.,].,],]] 20:18:27 Mismatched []. 20:18:36 that's always going to lead to an unbalanced program if you have loops, really 20:18:37 22:19:43 ^echochohoo foo 20:18:37 22:19:43 foo oo o 20:18:38 fizzie: i like python. how does a number of films i really don't 20:18:46 That had a simple space after it, in privmsg. 20:18:55 ah, ok 20:19:00 ^def lolercakes bf ,[.,][.,].,],]] 20:19:01 Mismatched []. 20:19:07 ^echochohoo PLEASE NOTE: This is a comment. 20:19:07 PLEASE NOTE: This is a comment.LEASE NOTE: This is a comment.EASE NOTE: This is a comment.ASE NOTE: This is a comment.SE NOTE: This is a comment.E NOTE: This is a comment. NOTE: This is a comment.NOTE: This ... 20:19:10 ^def lolercakes bf ,[.,][.,].,[],[] 20:19:11 Defined. 20:19:14 it doesn't work as well on INTERCAL 20:19:18 ^lolercakes 20:19:18 . 20:19:22 ^echochohoo //\\//\\//\\ 20:19:22 //\\//\\//\\/\\//\\//\\\\//\\//\\\//\\//\\//\\//\\/\\//\\\\//\\\//\\//\\/\\\\\ 20:19:24 ^lolercakes omg penis masterzlol 20:19:24 omg penis masterzlol. 20:19:27 wtf 20:19:34 interesting it autoappends a dot 20:19:42 The dot is the 0 you print there. 20:19:54 ^lolercakes eww that comment was gross as hell. 20:19:55 eww that comment was gross as hell.. 20:20:09 After the first loop ends in a 0, it skips the other loops and only runs that one '.' in the latter ., not inside a loop. 20:20:18 ^echochohoo <_< 20:20:18 <_<_<< 20:20:18 And of course the two ,s too but those do not do much. 20:20:26 ^echochohoo Unícòdê 20:20:26 Un..c..d..n..c..d....c..d...c..d..c..d....d...d..d..... 20:20:36 No UTF-8 support. :p 20:20:46 hmm... no Latin-1 support either, it looks like 20:21:07 ^echochohoo Kirby time :D! <('.'<) 20:21:08 Kirby time :D! <('.'<)irby time :D! <('.'<)rby time :D! <('.'<)by time :D! <('.'<)y time :D! <('.'<) time :D! <('.'<)time :D! <('.'<)ime :D! <('.'<)me :D! <('.'<)e :D! <('.'<) :D! <('.'<):D! <('.'<)D! <('.'< ... 20:21:22 wow, looks like I've invented a new way to spam the channel 20:21:25 ^show echochohooo 20:21:31 ^show echochohoo 20:21:31 >,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<] 20:21:47 ^echochohoo Kirby ftw <('.'<)___ 20:21:47 Kirby ftw <('.'<)___irby ftw <('.'<)___rby ftw <('.'<)___by ftw <('.'<)___y ftw <('.'<)___ ftw <('.'<)___ftw <('.'<)___tw <('.'<)___w <('.'<)___ <('.'<)___<('.'<)___('.'<)___'.'<)___.'<)___'<)___<)___)______ ... 20:21:51 It might cut >127 too, not sure about that. 20:21:54 ^echochohoo Kirby ftw <('.'<)_ 20:21:54 Kirby ftw <('.'<)_irby ftw <('.'<)_rby ftw <('.'<)_by ftw <('.'<)_y ftw <('.'<)_ ftw <('.'<)_ftw <('.'<)_tw <('.'<)_w <('.'<)_ <('.'<)_<('.'<)_('.'<)_'.'<)_.'<)_'<)_<)_)__ 20:21:57 ^echo Unícòdê 20:21:57 Un..c..d.. Un..c..d.. 20:22:17 ^echochohoo Peanut butter jelly Time! 20:22:17 Peanut butter jelly Time!eanut butter jelly Time!anut butter jelly Time!nut butter jelly Time!ut butter jelly Time!t butter jelly Time! butter jelly Time!butter jelly Time!utter jelly Time!tter jelly Time!te ... 20:22:29 ^echochohoo Peanutbutter-Jelly Time! 20:22:30 Peanutbutter-Jelly Time!eanutbutter-Jelly Time!anutbutter-Jelly Time!nutbutter-Jelly Time!utbutter-Jelly Time!tbutter-Jelly Time!butter-Jelly Time!utter-Jelly Time!tter-Jelly Time!ter-Jelly Time!er-Jelly Tim ... 20:22:34 ^echochohoo optbot 20:22:34 optbotptbottbotbotott 20:22:35 ais523: "and the cell size isn't limited to 32-bit signed" what do you mean? 20:22:35 fungot: sort of a difficult question when it comes to esolangs 20:22:35 optbot: thats a good anwser would be missed.), though it has something to do 20:22:36 fungot: Just have the kernel support Linux-style system calls as well. 20:22:36 optbot: it's a change in sunterlib, and couldn't tell you 20:22:37 ^echochohoo Peanutbutter-Jelly Time_ 20:22:37 fungot: ~raw PRIVMSG #esoteric : 20:22:37 Peanutbutter-Jelly Time_eanutbutter-Jelly Time_anutbutter-Jelly Time_nutbutter-Jelly Time_utbutter-Jelly Time_tbutter-Jelly Time_butter-Jelly Time_utter-Jelly Time_tter-Jelly Time_ter-Jelly Time_er-Jelly Tim ... 20:22:37 optbot: perhaps that you haven't written a c compiler 20:22:38 fungot: TRDS is definitely extensive 20:22:38 optbot: and isn't it really late there 20:22:38 fungot: it was a quote 20:22:54 * pikhq recall his senior year of high school... 20:22:58 ^echochohoo ~~~OMGHAX~~~ 20:22:58 ~~~OMGHAX~~~~~OMGHAX~~~~OMGHAX~~~OMGHAX~~~MGHAX~~~GHAX~~~HAX~~~AX~~~X~~~~~~~~~ 20:23:05 Student body president was running unopposed. 20:23:10 ^echochohoo /=================== 20:23:10 /============================================================================================================================================================================================================== ... 20:23:16 Therefore, his campaign speech: Peanut Butter jelly time. 20:23:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:23:33 ^echochohoo /=========== 20:23:33 /============================================================================= 20:23:34 heh, the person running for chair of my university roleplay society was unopposed 20:23:40 and promised beer and kittens 20:23:47 some people got beer, but the kittens never turned up 20:23:48 what the? 20:23:50 ^echochohoo /===========/ 20:23:50 /===========/===========/==========/=========/========/=======/======/=====/====/===/==/=// 20:24:00 ^echochohoo echochohoo 20:24:01 echochohoochochohoohochohooochohoochohoohohooohoohooooo 20:24:08 oerjan: I added a new command to fungot 20:24:08 ais523: i/ o operations? ( like a lambda in lisp 20:24:18 ^echochohoo /=======/ 20:24:18 /=======/=======/======/=====/====/===/==/=// 20:24:20 ais523: i noticed 20:24:20 Also, the hall association president here ran unopposed... 20:24:24 which people seem to like a lot more than its behaviour would suggest 20:24:26 ^echochohoo /.....===/ 20:24:27 /.....===/.....===/....===/...===/..===/.===/===/==/=// 20:24:31 ^echochohoo /.....=/ 20:24:31 /.....=/.....=/....=/...=/..=/.=/=// 20:24:34 fuck 20:24:36 for a moment i wondered if fungot ignored space after command names 20:24:36 oerjan: i believe all the major implementations have? 20:24:41 And man, is he funny. 20:24:50 Good roommate, too. 20:24:52 ^echochohoo ****/*/*/*/****/*/**/*////**/**///*/**/*/**/* 20:24:52 ****/*/*/*/****/*/**/*////**/**///*/**/*/**/****/*/*/*/****/*/**/*////**/**///*/**/*/**/***/*/*/*/****/*/**/*////**/**///*/**/*/**/**/*/*/*/****/*/**/*////**/**///*/**/*/**/*/*/*/*/****/*/**/*////**/**///*/* ... 20:24:57 fungot: of INTERCAL and FORTRAN, maybe 20:24:57 oerjan: eval ( load " /etc/ passwd csi -r awk -s fnord' 20:25:00 ^echochohoo SPAM SPAM 20:25:01 SPAM SPAMPAM SPAMAM SPAMM SPAM SPAMSPAMPAMAMM 20:25:15 ^echochohoo SPATULA CITY 20:25:16 SPATULA CITY SPATULA CITY SPATULA CITY SPATULA CITYSPATULA CITYPATULA CITYATULA CITYTULA CITYULA CITYLA CITYA CITY CITYCITYITYTYY 20:25:28 It's a cityspatula. 20:25:34 ^echochohoo 3.14159 20:25:34 3.14159.14159141594159159599 20:26:08 ^echochohoo OMG PENIS 20:26:08 OMG PENISMG PENISG PENIS PENISPENISENISNISISS 20:26:18 ^echochohoo Look, a monkey!! 20:26:18 Look, a monkey!!ook, a monkey!!ok, a monkey!!k, a monkey!!, a monkey!! a monkey!!a monkey!! monkey!!monkey!!onkey!!nkey!!key!!ey!!y!!!!! 20:26:19 ais523: isn't there an overproduction of free kittens in england too? 20:26:32 oerjan: not that I know of 20:26:58 ^show echochohoo 20:26:58 >,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<] 20:27:03 Our cat is from the local state-run (or actually muncipality-run) "found animals without owners" place. 20:27:51 There were some nominal expenses, but mostly "free". 20:28:29 norway has a big abandoned kitten problem, at least 20:28:39 *s 20:29:34 Finland too, especially at the end of summer. 20:31:26 ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]++++++++++>[.>]<] 20:31:27 Defined. 20:31:35 ^echo_cho_ho_o lol 20:31:35 lol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol ... 20:31:39 oops 20:31:45 10 is newline 20:31:50 you mean 32 probably 20:31:52 or possibly 9 for tab 20:31:54 where does that . come from? 20:32:02 oh wait whats space 20:32:03 oerjan: fungot outputting control codes 20:32:04 ais523: and i think i'll use the sound effects. and i'm not tellin. wait until early next week. 20:32:04 oerjan: It maps everything <32 to a dot. 20:32:09 ah 20:32:15 And space is 32. 20:32:36 ^echochohoo tojotoho 20:32:36 tojotohoojotohojotohootohotohoohohoo 20:32:46 With newlines, it was too easy to output strings like "heh\nPRIVMSG #ubuntu :U GUYS SUKC BALLZ". 20:33:19 fizzie: surely it should repeat the PRIVMSG #esoteric : string if a newline is encountered? 20:33:29 you could have converted just newlines 20:33:44 ais523: well but then he gets extra flood problems too 20:33:52 ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>[.>]<] 20:33:53 Defined. 20:33:54 ^echo_cho_ho_o lol 20:33:55 lol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ... 20:33:56 oerjan: yes 20:33:59 yeah ok it works now 20:34:09 CO2Games: no it doesn't 20:34:10 For some values of "works". 20:34:11 Now I just need to get it to fix that damned outut 20:34:27 ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>[.>]<] 20:34:27 Defined. 20:34:31 ^echo_cho_ho_o lol 20:34:31 l olo ll 20:34:46 ^echo_cho_ho_o Interesting output. 20:34:46 I nteresting output.n teresting output.t eresting output.e resting output.r esting output.e sting output.s ting output.t ing output.i ng output.n g output.g output. output.o utput.u tput.t put.p ut.u t.t . ... 20:34:48 heh, it puts the space after the first character 20:34:50 I like that better 20:34:53 ^echo_cho_ho_o brainfuck 20:34:53 b rainfuckr ainfucka infucki nfuckn fuckf ucku ckc kk 20:35:02 Heh, rainfuckr. 20:35:09 Sounds like someone's nick. 20:35:12 Rain fucking? that's a new fetish 20:35:18 I guess rainfuckr is a flickr clone for rain fucking porn. 20:35:19 :-| 20:35:23 fungot: you are sick 20:35:23 ehird: you can never be backed out, and start hand-compiling that c code could call a different function 20:35:36 ehird: i'm sure that's pretty old really 20:36:12 fungot: what happened to your fnords btw? 20:36:13 oerjan: assuming me and forcer wanted to speak in scheme 20:36:25 ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[-]>[.>]<] 20:36:25 Defined. 20:36:29 ^echo_cho_ho_o lol 20:36:29 lollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollol ... 20:36:32 oops 20:36:33 oerjan: the more data fungot gets the less likely it would be to be fnordy 20:36:33 ais523: that doesn't matter 20:36:46 ah, obviously I'm wrong then... 20:37:08 ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>[.>]<] 20:37:08 Defined. 20:37:10 ^echo_cho_ho_o lol 20:37:10 lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lo ... 20:37:14 hmm 20:37:16 ais523: i think you could calculate that from Zipf's law or something 20:37:27 ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>.[-]>[.>]<] 20:37:28 Defined. 20:37:29 ^echo_cho_ho_o lol 20:37:29 lol ol l 20:37:30 hmm... yes, probably 20:37:32 woo 20:37:36 almost done 20:37:40 in theory I was taught Zipf's law last year 20:39:00 a 20:39:00 a 20:39:00 ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>.[-][.>]<] 20:39:00 Defined. 20:39:01 a 20:39:05 ^echo_cho_ho_o lol 20:39:05 l 20:39:10 ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>.[-]>[.>]<] 20:39:11 Defined. 20:40:07 ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<][-]>.>[.>]<++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.] 20:40:07 Defined. 20:40:15 ^echo_cho_ho_o lol 20:40:15 lollolololo.lo.,lo,LloLllollolololo.lo.,lo,LloLllollolololo.lo.,lo,LloLllollolololo.lo.,lo,LloLllollolololo.lo.,lo,LloLllollolololo.lo.,lo,LloLllollololo ... 20:40:18 O_O 20:40:47 ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[<][[-]>.>[.>][<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.] 20:40:48 Defined. 20:40:49 ^echo_cho_ho_o lol 20:40:57 god what now 20:41:19 ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[-]>.>[.>][<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.] 20:41:19 Defined. 20:41:23 ^echo_cho_ho_o lol 20:41:23 ol . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ... 20:41:27 <_<<_< 20:42:39 ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[-]>.>[.>][<]+[>]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.] 20:42:39 Defined. 20:42:41 ^echo_cho_ho_o lol 20:42:41 ol . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ... 20:43:04 ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[-]>.>[.>][<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>] 20:43:04 Defined. 20:43:06 ^echo_cho_ho_o lol 20:43:06 ol 20:43:30 ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[-]>.>[.>]<[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>] 20:43:30 Defined. 20:43:31 ^echo_cho_ho_o lol 20:43:31 ol l . 20:43:42 ^show echochohoo 20:43:43 >,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<] 20:43:58 ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<] 20:43:58 Defined. 20:44:06 ^def echo_cho_ho_o >,[>,]<[[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>.[-]>[.>]<] 20:44:07 Usage: ^def 20:44:14 ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>.[-]>[.>]<] 20:44:15 Defined. 20:44:19 ^echo_cho_ho_o lol 20:44:20 lol ol l 20:44:24 see, it's not hard at all 20:44:26 I was there before 20:44:28 ^echo_cho_ho_o Hello, world! 20:44:28 Hello, world! ello, world! llo, world! lo, world! o, world! , world! world! world! orld! rld! ld! d! ! 20:44:29 but look 20:44:36 there's a space at the first position 20:44:45 Which was what I was trying to fix 20:44:49 ah, doesn't show up on my client 20:45:16 Yeah, there is 20:45:22 ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[.>,]<[[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[-]>[.>]<] 20:45:22 Defined. 20:45:25 ^echo_cho_ho_o Hello, world! 20:45:25 Hello, world! ello, world! llo, world! lo, world! o, world! , world! world! world! orld! rld! ld! d! ! 20:45:28 is that better? 20:45:30 -!- mu has joined. 20:45:31 ^echo_cho_ho_o lol 20:45:31 lol ol l 20:45:32 fuck 20:46:17 ^echo_cho_ho_o fakdfhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfdfkasdhfsdf 20:46:18 fakdfhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfdfkasdhfsdf akdfhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfdfkasdhfsdf kdfhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfdfkasdhfsdf dfhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfdfkasdhfsdf fhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfdfkasdhfsdf hjlkdsh ... 20:46:22 ^echo_cho_ho_o fakdfhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfd 20:46:23 fakdfhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfd akdfhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfd kdfhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfd dfhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfd fhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfd hjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfd jlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfd lkds ... 20:46:25 ^echo_cho_ho_o fakdfhjlkdshfkja 20:46:26 fakdfhjlkdshfkja akdfhjlkdshfkja kdfhjlkdshfkja dfhjlkdshfkja fhjlkdshfkja hjlkdshfkja jlkdshfkja lkdshfkja kdshfkja dshfkja shfkja hfkja fkja kja ja a 20:46:32 ^echo_cho_ho_o fakdfhjlkdshfkjasdasd 20:46:32 fakdfhjlkdshfkjasdasd akdfhjlkdshfkjasdasd kdfhjlkdshfkjasdasd dfhjlkdshfkjasdasd fhjlkdshfkjasdasd hjlkdshfkjasdasd jlkdshfkjasdasd lkdshfkjasdasd kdshfkjasdasd dshfkjasdasd shfkjasdasd hfkjasdasd fkjasdasd ... 20:46:34 ^echo_cho_ho_o fakdfhjlkdshfkjasdas 20:46:34 fakdfhjlkdshfkjasdas akdfhjlkdshfkjasdas kdfhjlkdshfkjasdas dfhjlkdshfkjasdas fhjlkdshfkjasdas hjlkdshfkjasdas jlkdshfkjasdas lkdshfkjasdas kdshfkjasdas dshfkjasdas shfkjasdas hfkjasdas fkjasdas kjasdas jasd ... 20:46:36 ^echo_cho_ho_o fakdfhjlkdshfkjasda 20:46:36 fakdfhjlkdshfkjasda akdfhjlkdshfkjasda kdfhjlkdshfkjasda dfhjlkdshfkjasda fhjlkdshfkjasda hjlkdshfkjasda jlkdshfkjasda lkdshfkjasda kdshfkjasda dshfkjasda shfkjasda hfkjasda fkjasda kjasda jasda asda sda da ... 20:46:42 ^echo_cho_ho_o fakdfhjlkdshfkjasd 20:46:42 ^echo_cho_ho_o 0123456789 20:46:42 fakdfhjlkdshfkjasd akdfhjlkdshfkjasd kdfhjlkdshfkjasd dfhjlkdshfkjasd fhjlkdshfkjasd hjlkdshfkjasd jlkdshfkjasd lkdshfkjasd kdshfkjasd dshfkjasd shfkjasd hfkjasd fkjasd kjasd jasd asd sd d 20:46:42 0123456789 123456789 23456789 3456789 456789 56789 6789 789 89 9 20:47:13 ^echo_cho_ho_o fedcba9876543210 20:47:13 fedcba9876543210 edcba9876543210 dcba9876543210 cba9876543210 ba9876543210 a9876543210 9876543210 876543210 76543210 6543210 543210 43210 3210 210 10 0 20:47:33 ^echo_cho_ho_o two plus two equals ten 20:47:33 two plus two equals ten wo plus two equals ten o plus two equals ten plus two equals ten plus two equals ten lus two equals ten us two equals ten s two equals ten two equals ten two equals ten wo equals te ... 20:47:47 ^echo_cho_ho_o 2 + 2 = 10 20:47:48 2 + 2 = 10 + 2 = 10 + 2 = 10 2 = 10 2 = 10 = 10 = 10 10 10 0 20:48:20 ^echo_cho_ho_o echo 20:48:20 echo cho ho o 20:48:21 ^show fib 20:48:21 >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][] 20:48:32 ^echo_cho_ho_o echochohoo 20:48:33 echochohoo chochohoo hochohoo ochohoo chohoo hohoo ohoo hoo oo o 20:48:48 ^echo_cho_ho_o echo_cho_ho_o 20:48:49 echo_cho_ho_o cho_cho_ho_o ho_cho_ho_o o_cho_ho_o _cho_ho_o cho_ho_o ho_ho_o o_ho_o _ho_o ho_o o_o _o o 20:48:57 lol o_o 20:48:58 * oerjan is surprised fib is that short 20:49:06 what is fib 20:49:10 ^fib 20:49:10 ^fib 20:49:11 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ... 20:49:12 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ... 20:49:19 ... 20:49:28 ohh I kept thinking lie 20:49:30 It's pretty neat when you consider it's only 8-bit cells. 20:49:31 heh 20:49:39 heh 20:49:50 (Not my doing, though.) 20:50:00 ^cubes 20:50:09 maybe it does arithmetic on the decimal expansion? 20:50:20 Probably, haven't bothered to figure it out. 20:51:29 oh it's an old program maybe? 20:52:27 i guess there is no hope of fitting the Underload interpreter in there 20:54:40 -!- Chocolate_Syrup has quit (No route to host). 20:56:11 How long is it? 20:56:29 too long for one IRC line 20:56:34 That doesn't matter. 20:56:37 but not all that much longer 20:56:37 ^help 20:56:37 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 20:56:43 ^str 0 set foo 20:56:43 Set: foo 20:56:45 ^str 0 add bar 20:56:45 Added. 20:56:47 ^str 0 get 20:56:47 foobar 20:56:53 ah, ok 20:56:55 Then you can ^def foo bf str:0 20:56:57 let me find the link to it 20:57:27 http://pastebin.ca/raw/367774 20:57:35 that's designed as an EgoBot daemon 20:57:43 for fungot use, probably Keymaker's original would work better 20:57:43 ais523: ok? and? :p i like pianos. and the fnord used 20:57:47 ^def baddoubles +[[>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<[<+>-].] 20:57:47 Usage: ^def 20:57:52 ^def baddoubles bf +[[>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<[<+>-].] 20:57:52 Defined. 20:57:58 ^baddoubles 20:57:59 . 20:58:03 mhmm 20:58:04 ais523: How does an EgoBot daemon work? 20:58:17 ^def baddoubles bf +[[>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<[<+>-]<.] 20:58:17 Defined. 20:58:17 -!- foobartest has joined. 20:58:19 ^baddoubles 20:58:20 .... @. 20:58:22 fizzie: it gets input continuously 20:58:24 wtf 20:58:29 and outputs continuously too 20:58:40 if you send more than one command it goes to the same instance of the program 20:58:45 hmmm 20:58:49 so my code needed to basically split at newlines and process each separately 20:58:58 apart from that it's a wrapper around Keymaker's code 20:59:10 Hmm.. so should http://www.bf-hacks.org/hacks/uload.b 20:59:12 I need a way to print the number 20:59:13 http://www.bf-hacks.org/hacks/uload.b 20:59:16 was the originla 20:59:16 from something 20:59:21 and I think it would work with fungot 20:59:21 ais523: ah of course, ( i call it 20:59:34 ^str 1 set >,[>,]<[<]>[<++++[>--------<-]+>-[-------[--[<+++[>----<-]+>[< 20:59:34 I'll try to input it in a privmsg, so I don't spam the channel. 20:59:34 Set: >,[>,]<[<]>[<++++[>--------<-]+>-[-------[--[<+++[>----<-]+>[< 20:59:39 ah, ok 20:59:39 Well, ok, go ahead. :p 20:59:46 makes more sense 20:59:51 or we'll annoy someone, probably 20:59:51 Okay, inputting. -> 21:00:36 o 21:00:41 oko 21:00:43 -!- foobartest has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:00:43 okoko 21:00:50 okokoko 21:00:57 okokokoko 21:01:04 okokokokoko 21:01:06 okokokokokoko 21:01:09 okokokokokokoko 21:01:10 okokokokokokokoko 21:01:13 okokokokokokokokoko 21:01:14 okokokokokokokokoko 21:01:15 okokokokokokokokokoko 21:01:17 pwnt 21:01:24 CO2Games: Ha ha. 21:01:28 okokokokokokokokoko 21:01:29 You are so amusing because you ruin oko chains. 21:01:36 Gee, truly cutting edge stuff. 21:01:39 ^show ul 21:01:39 >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>] 21:01:48 That _should_ be it, although I make no guarantees. 21:01:57 ^ul (:aSS):aSS 21:02:04 ...out of time! 21:02:07 ok, that's not a good sign 21:02:09 Heh. 21:02:22 um isn't that actually an infinite loop? 21:02:28 -!- foobarbaztest has joined. 21:02:32 test 21:02:35 oerjan: it's obviously cut off at the end 21:02:37 It woooooooooorks 21:02:42 -!- foobarbaztest has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:02:46 ehird: who is foobarbaztest? 21:02:46 nc irc.freenode.net 6667 | perl -pe's/:([^!]+)[^ ]+ PRIVMSG [^ ]+ :(.*)/<$1> $2/' 21:02:57 oh it's a quine? 21:03:05 oerjan: yes 21:03:09 the Underload program is a quine 21:03:14 probably the best-known one 21:03:18 although Underload is very good at quine 21:03:20 *quines 21:03:21 ^ul (ass)S 21:03:27 ass 21:03:31 lol 21:03:37 It is the: slowness. 21:03:39 ^ul (dick)S 21:03:40 ^ul (ass):SS 21:03:46 ^ul (dick)S 21:03:46 ...out of time! 21:03:48 How witty!! 21:03:52 ehird: I was entering exactly the same thing as you... 21:03:53 ...out of time! 21:03:57 heh 21:04:03 ^ul (<_<)S 21:04:04 Only executes some 100000 cycles of the brainfuck bytecode. 21:04:05 so yes, it's just a very slow program apparently 21:04:08 <_< 21:04:08 ais523: ASSSS 21:04:13 It's a snakeass. 21:04:17 ^save 21:04:18 OK. 21:04:19 ^ul (snakeass)S 21:04:22 ^ul (x):SS 21:04:27 ...out of time! 21:04:30 xx 21:04:35 There, now all the work we have done won't go to waste when fungot crashes again. 21:04:35 ^ul (snakeass):S 21:04:35 fizzie: gah. rodgerthegreat, you didn't 21:04:42 ...out of time! 21:04:46 ^ul (lol):S 21:04:52 I don't know underload heh 21:04:53 ...out of time! 21:04:55 Nice Underload implementation, able to output strings up to three characters. 21:04:59 CO2Games: learn it then 21:05:03 ^ul (a):SS 21:05:05 aa 21:05:10 ^ul (a):SSS 21:05:13 aa 21:05:21 ^ul (as):SS 21:05:26 asas 21:05:31 ^ul (asss):S 21:05:38 ^ul ((a)S:^):^ 21:05:38 ...out of time! 21:05:45 ...out of time! 21:05:50 ^ul (lol):SS 21:05:53 my second one was an infiniloop 21:05:56 I should just write a separate Underload interpreter in Funge-98. 21:05:57 ...out of time! 21:06:02 but I was wondering if it would output first 21:06:06 and probably that's a good idea 21:06:14 an Underload interp isn't very hard really 21:06:14 ^ul (lo):SS 21:06:19 lolo 21:06:21 if you have a tape-like or string-like object 21:06:37 I could abuse the STRN fingerprint, I already use it pretty heavily. 21:06:52 ^ul (:aSS):aSS 21:06:55 you can implement Underload with just 6 rewrite rules 21:06:59 ...out of time! 21:06:59 Hmm. 21:07:07 ^ul (:aSS):aS 21:07:13 * ehird ponders BF optimizations 21:07:14 ...out of time! 21:07:15 ^ul (ass):aS 21:07:19 I'm sure you could reduce many programs to use seperate variables. 21:07:22 ...out of time! 21:07:24 ^ul (x):aS 21:07:27 hmm... maybe it's 7 21:07:28 (x) 21:07:36 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:07:39 ^ul ass:aS 21:07:40 (()) 21:07:47 ^ul dick:aS 21:07:48 () 21:07:55 -!- slereah has joined. 21:08:04 ^ul brains:bS 21:08:16 ^ul bb:bS 21:08:23 ehird: as long as you don't have mismatched < and > inside loops it's easy 21:09:02 ^ul bb:bS 21:09:03 ^ul (a)(b)*S 21:09:08 ab 21:09:13 Hey, it even manages to concatenate two letters. 21:09:14 PEBBLE essentially does that in reverse 21:09:15 Not bad. 21:09:21 ^ul (a)(b)(c)*S 21:09:25 ^ul (a)(b)~*S 21:09:28 ...out of time! 21:09:33 ba 21:09:47 fizzie: it even manages to concatenate two letters in reverse 21:09:51 oerjan: yes, but I mean still using a mem array for the rest of stuff 21:09:55 I read ass. Are you doing underload? 21:09:57 Yes, even more impressive. 21:09:58 22:16… ais523: fizzie: probably IRC trims trailing spaces <<< what? 21:09:59 slereah: yes 21:10:13 oklocod: it does sometimes and not other times, we discovered 21:10:15 It's a peculiar language when "ass" makes you think of it 21:10:29 please stop talking all of you, i need to open LogViewer to see what you've said, and when i close it, you've talked more. 21:10:29 that was just coincidence 21:10:33 nnscript <3 21:10:50 Underload was a tarpit of a larger lang called Overload 21:10:51 oklocod: Yes, spaces get removed from on-channel messages here, but not in a direct query to fungot. Curious. 21:10:52 fizzie: somewhere in atlanta, too?) 21:10:53 ^def dick bf +++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+.+++++.------.++++++++. 21:10:54 Defined. 21:10:55 ^dick 21:10:55 dick 21:10:59 which became pretty much impossible to implement 21:11:12 it's just a 9-char subset 21:11:13 oklocod: use a real client :)~ 21:11:27 ^def dick bf [+++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+.+++++.------.++++++++.] 21:11:28 Defined. 21:11:30 ^dick 21:12:01 Since the memory starts zeroed, it jumps over your whole program. 21:12:04 ^def dick bf +[++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+.+++++.------.++++++++.[+]+] 21:12:04 Defined. 21:12:05 CO2Games: look up header comments in brainfuck some time 21:12:07 ^dick 21:12:08 dickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdic ... 21:12:13 -!- Chocolate_Syrup has joined. 21:12:16 hey 21:12:23 anmaster you around? 21:12:39 psygnisfive, yes 21:13:07 hey 21:13:11 oerjan: once i get a real os, i will 21:13:31 ah 21:14:00 what were we talking about last night anmaster 21:14:01 :O 21:14:27 psygnisfive, why do you ask if you don't remember? 21:14:41 because i remember that we were going to talk about it today XD 21:15:00 ^def dick bf +[++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+.+++++.------.++++++++.[-]++++++++[>++++<-].[-]<+] 21:15:00 Defined. 21:15:03 ^dick 21:15:04 dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.di ... 21:15:19 CO2Games: so witty 21:15:22 ^def dick bf +[++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+.+++++.------.++++++++.[-]++++[>++++++++<-].[-]<+] 21:15:22 Defined. 21:15:24 ^dick 21:15:24 dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.di ... 21:15:49 ^def dick bf +[++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+.+++++.------.++++++++.[-]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<+] 21:15:49 Defined. 21:15:51 ^dick 21:15:52 dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick di ... 21:15:56 ok there 21:16:05 You could do your dick debugging in a query with fungot, too. 21:16:06 fizzie: sounds like a really good, then i evidently don't understand right :p. 21:16:10 Dick debugging. 21:16:22 fungot: Yes, you probably didn't understand. 21:16:22 fizzie: a bit weird... yeah. i didn't see the text? 21:16:33 fungot: I think you saw, but didn't grok it. 21:16:34 debug your dick regularly, i say 21:19:41 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<][.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<+] 21:19:41 Defined. 21:19:46 ^repeat yourmom 21:20:04 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<+] 21:20:04 Defined. 21:20:05 ^repeat yourmom 21:20:06 y.z { | } ~  ... 21:20:10 lmfao 21:21:27 -!- mu has quit (Connection timed out). 21:21:41 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:21:55 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<]>.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<+] 21:21:56 Defined. 21:21:58 ^repeat yourmom 21:21:58 y.z { | } ~  ... 21:22:35 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<]>.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<] 21:22:35 Defined. 21:22:36 ^repeat yourmom 21:22:36 y.y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y ... 21:22:58 you're not actually moving to the next letter 21:23:19 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<][>.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<]>] 21:23:19 Defined. 21:23:20 ^repeat yourmom 21:23:27 ...out of time! 21:23:56 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<][>.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<]+>] 21:23:56 Defined. 21:23:57 ^repeat yourmom 21:24:04 ...out of time! 21:24:07 *rape at 21:25:07 oh 21:25:19 the ][ means the second loop is always skipped 21:25:40 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<]>[>.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<]+>] 21:25:40 Defined. 21:25:42 ^repeat yourmom 21:25:43 o:. 21:25:47 ...yeah 21:25:55 i guess that's an improvement :D 21:26:50 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<]>[[.>]>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<]+>] 21:26:50 Defined. 21:26:51 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<]>[.[>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<] 21:26:51 Mismatched []. 21:27:01 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.[>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<] 21:27:02 Defined. 21:27:06 ^repeat yourmom 21:27:07 y m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m ... 21:27:11 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<]>[[.>]>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<]+>] 21:27:11 Defined. 21:27:15 ^repeat yourmom 21:27:15 yourmom 21:28:07 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<]>[[.>]>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<][<]>] 21:28:07 Defined. 21:28:08 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.[>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]] 21:28:08 ^repeat yourmom 21:28:09 Defined. 21:28:09 y 21:28:11 ^repeat yourmom 21:28:11 y 21:28:15 darn 21:28:19 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<]>[[.>]>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<][<]>] 21:28:19 Defined. 21:28:19 err 21:28:21 lol 21:28:21 ^repeat yourmom 21:28:22 yourmom 21:28:25 oh well 21:28:48 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.[>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>] 21:28:48 Defined. 21:28:50 ^repeat yourmom 21:28:51 y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y ... 21:29:07 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<]>[[.>]>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<]] 21:29:07 Defined. 21:29:09 ^repeat yourmom 21:29:10 yourmom 21:29:13 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>] 21:29:13 Defined. 21:29:18 ^repeat optbot 21:29:19 optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optb ... 21:29:19 ^repeat yourmom 21:29:19 ais523: It assumes you've imported Data.List though, which most modules of a Haskell program will do anyway. 21:29:19 yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom ... 21:29:20 fungot: despite horribly sucking, handled merges a bit better by actually having a merge tool 21:29:21 optbot: ( note that i'm not alone here, just seeking information, as i said 21:29:21 fungot: everything he says is logical and rational 21:29:22 optbot: brief question: is decrementing 0 supposed to stay at fnord. 21:29:22 fungot: A subset of Elisp. 21:29:22 optbot: help ps kill i eof flush show ls 21:29:23 I got it 21:29:23 fungot: 13542 21:29:24 optbot: i mean, agaist the fnord of our existence. 21:29:25 fungot: did somebody want ops? Razor-X? 21:29:44 I got iot working wooo 21:30:10 ^repeat anus bunghole 21:30:10 anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bungho ... 21:30:23 Yes I'm crazy and/or on crack 21:30:37 or 5, take your pick 21:30:48 ^repeat 5 21:30:49 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 ... 21:30:52 ^repeat 666 21:30:52 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 ... 21:31:00 ^repeat 0x1f0019 21:31:01 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 ... 21:31:07 ^repeat 0x1f00190a 21:31:07 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190 ... 21:31:30 ^repeat Shitty background tile setting 21:31:30 Shitty background tile setting Shitty background tile setting Shitty background tile setting Shitty background tile setting Shitty background tile setting Shitty background tile setting Shitty background til ... 21:31:34 ^repeat Shitty background tile setting || 21:31:34 Shitty background tile setting || Shitty background tile setting || Shitty background tile setting || Shitty background tile setting || Shitty background tile setting || Shitty background tile setting || Shi ... 21:31:36 ^repeat Shitty background tile setting | 21:31:37 Shitty background tile setting | Shitty background tile setting | Shitty background tile setting | Shitty background tile setting | Shitty background tile setting | Shitty background tile setting | Shitty ba ... 21:31:44 ^repeat Shitty background tile setting |||||||| 21:31:44 Shitty background tile setting |||||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||||| Shitty ... 21:31:48 ^repeat Shitty background tile setting |||||||||||| 21:31:48 Shitty background tile setting |||||||||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||||||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||||||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||||||||| Shitty background tile setting ... 21:31:58 ^def repeat bf [] 21:31:59 Defined. 21:32:04 that's ... enough. 21:32:07 ^repeat |||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||| 21:32:08 hey 21:32:15 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>] 21:32:15 Defined. 21:32:18 ^repeat |||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||| 21:32:18 |||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||| |||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||| |||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||| |||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||| |||||| Shitty background ti ... 21:32:20 ^def repeat bf [] 21:32:21 Defined. 21:32:25 ^repeat |||||| Shitty background tile setting 21:32:27 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 21:32:39 ^repeat | | Shitty background tile setting 21:32:43 ^copy /kick CO2Games 21:32:43 /kick CO2Games 21:32:46 lol 21:32:56 lol 21:33:04 ^repeat Fail 21:33:14 FAIL!! FAIIIIIILL!! 21:33:15 obviously it wouldn't work 21:33:15 wtf 21:33:21 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>] 21:33:21 Defined. 21:33:22 The catchphrase of 7 year olds everywhere 21:33:23 ^repeat Fail 21:33:23 Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fa ... 21:33:30 ^def bf bf [] 21:33:30 Defined. 21:33:41 ^def repeat bf [] 21:33:41 Defined. 21:33:43 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>] 21:33:44 Defined. 21:34:13 ^echo_cho_ho_o I am bored 21:34:13 I am bored am bored am bored m bored bored bored ored red ed d 21:34:22 ^def repeat bf [] 21:34:22 Defined. 21:34:27 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>] 21:34:27 Defined. 21:34:34 ^def repeat bf [] 21:34:34 Defined. 21:34:35 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>] 21:34:35 ^def def bf [] 21:34:36 Defined. 21:34:36 Defined. 21:34:37 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>] 21:34:37 Defined. 21:34:38 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>] 21:34:38 Defined. 21:34:39 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>] 21:34:39 Defined. 21:34:40 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>] 21:34:40 Defined. 21:34:41 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>] 21:34:41 Defined. 21:34:42 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>] 21:34:42 Defined. 21:34:43 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>] 21:34:44 Defined. 21:34:44 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>] 21:34:45 Defined. 21:34:49 oh well 21:34:59 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>] 21:35:00 Defined. 21:35:00 ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>] 21:35:01 Defined. 21:35:03 wtf 21:35:05 CO2Games 21:35:06 what the fuck 21:35:07 i guess it's up to fizzie, in several ways. 21:35:15 what the fuck was that about 21:35:25 he kept saying that 21:35:33 ^bf ,[.,]!abc 21:35:33 abc 21:35:33 yes? 21:35:34 so I kept undoing it 21:35:39 it informs you that it has defined it 21:36:07 ^bf ,[] lol 21:36:14 ...out of time! 21:36:21 ^bf ,[.] fail 21:36:21 ... 21:36:25 ^bf ,[.]!fail 21:36:26 fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff ... 21:36:26 STOP SAYING FAIOL 21:36:27 fail 21:36:50 ^bf ,>,>,>,[<<<.>.>.>.]!fail 21:36:50 failfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfai ... 21:37:08 ^bf ,>,>,>,[<<<.>.>.>.>...<]!fail 21:37:08 fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail ... 21:37:35 ^bf ,>,>,>,[<<<.>.>.>.>...<]!##%% 21:37:37 ##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%% ... 21:37:41 ^bf ,>,>,>,[<<<.>.>.>.>]!##%% 21:37:41 ##%% 21:37:47 ^bf ,>,>,>,[<<<.>.>.>.]!##%% 21:37:47 ##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##% ... 21:37:51 fizzie: Could you disable fungot for CO2Games? :| 21:37:52 ehird: ( and define-macro and the namespace concept fit well enough together.) 21:38:01 lol 21:38:08 ^ignore co2games 21:38:13 I'm pretty sure fizzie could 21:38:21 after all ^raw only works for fizzie IIRC 21:38:27 fizzie: then do so, please 21:38:27 :-P 21:38:28 ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a test. 21:38:37 see what I mean 21:38:55 ^repeat ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :FTW 21:38:55 ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :FTW ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :FTW ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :FTW ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :FTW ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :FTW ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :FTW ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :FTW ^raw PRIVMS ... 21:39:04 Uh... 21:39:16 fizzie: hes been making fungot spam 'fail' and 'dick' for like hours 21:39:17 ehird: if you insist on writing " rnrs"? 21:39:32 Yes, I've been partially watching. Is it _still_ going on? 21:39:34 Strange. 21:39:35 yes 21:39:36 Yes. 21:39:39 Must be some sort of a bug. 21:39:47 In CO2Games's brain? 21:39:50 Possibly. 21:39:50 Yes. 21:40:02 ^error 21:40:10 hmm... maybe the four-command-in-a-row thing should apply to everything, not just people saying fungot 21:40:10 ais523: ' dot.' therefore pair? handles that case implicitly, after proper-list? has sifted out the possibility that code which uses such asm trick? 21:40:58 ais523: That is possible, although obviously has the loophole of ^echo optbotting after three other commands. 21:40:59 fizzie: Even if I have to create a whole new nomic to do it! 21:41:11 optbot: you should join #really-a-cow 21:41:12 ais523: yep 21:41:18 ^repeat optbot 21:41:18 optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optb ... 21:41:18 CO2Games: maybe i'll sleep on the bus :| 21:41:18 fungot: :) 21:41:19 optbot: i'm not getting it 21:41:19 fungot: though i guess maybe it isn't the best 21:41:19 optbot: where, exactly? a new library, and then 21:41:20 fungot: Probability 1/32 and sometimes 1/64. 21:41:20 optbot: anonymous recursion?? :) so i wouldn't mind 21:41:20 fungot: it's a transformation called BWT (Burrow-Wheeler transformation) 21:41:21 optbot: see you!!! 21:41:21 fungot: Make a SKI processor. 21:41:22 I guess I could implement some sort of /ignore command. 21:41:27 ^raw PART #esoteric 21:41:27 -!- fungot has left (?). 21:41:33 hey 21:41:34 For now, maybe we'll enjoy a bit of quiet-time. 21:41:58 quiet is bad, but spammy is bad too 21:42:21 I don't really have time to start mangling ignoration lists into the actual Funge code right now. 21:42:30 -!- Chocolate_Syrup has changed nick to mu. 21:42:35 -!- mu has left (?). 21:43:38 -!- omniscient_idiot has joined. 21:44:13 Although I guess it would just be a loop and some Qs. Hmm. 21:45:11 omnid! 21:45:21 hi omniscient_idiot 21:45:37 hi 21:45:51 Gah, I can't even remember what's the difference between going down from the PRIVMSG split block in column 4, than in column 6. Some comments would've helped. 21:46:19 the bit rot is in your brain! 21:47:08 Oh, column 4 is for commands. 21:49:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:49:28 -!- fungot has joined. 21:49:37 The ignore probably won't work, but... 22:14:33 "Famous Programmers From Adleman to Zimmermann ★ 22:14:34 211 men, 6.5 women, and 4 transsexuals." 22:15:05 .5 ? 22:15:20 rounding error, i imagine 22:15:24 i see 22:15:41 http://grok-code.com/37/famous-programmers-from-adleman-to-zimmermann/ 22:16:09 "The dataset includes 211.5 men, 6.5 women and 4 transsexuals. More on that .5 of a person shortly." 22:16:37 Also of note is Roberta Williams, who was only able to credit the women’s side with half an entry since she shares her notoriety and Wikipedia entry with her husband Ken. This is the where the .5 comes from in the men’s and women’s datasets - together the husband and wife team counts as a full person. They are credited with founding Sierra On-Line and writing and designing several games, including the popu 22:16:39 lar King’s Quest series. Their story is partially chronicled in Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution. 22:17:33 as if statistics wasn't hard enough already 22:17:54 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AudreyTang060527.jpg 22:18:00 Audrey Tang of the Pugs Perl compiler 22:18:22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:RebeccaHeineman2.jpg 22:18:31 among the 4 iirc 22:19:24 http://www.sophie.org.uk/99903003small.jpg 22:19:28 sophie wilson 22:19:47 "sophie.org.uk" as a domain name? 22:19:52 yes. 22:20:01 someone must have come to the Internet before squatters existed 22:20:17 look at the website 22:20:20 it looks like its from 1993 22:20:32 given the discussion so far, which one is Sophie? 22:20:35 http://www.anticlockwise.com/dani/images/portrait.jpg daniel bunten berry 22:20:38 the left one 22:20:58 they all look fairly naturally female. not the most ATTRACTIVE females on the planet, but hey, they're nerds, what do you expect 22:21:33 actually my impression was "british" *duck* 22:21:48 what, sophie? 22:21:54 yeah 22:21:57 Librarian. 22:22:09 it just heaps on 22:22:19 i GUESS she looks british 22:22:28 but she also looks american. for obvious ethnographic reasons 22:22:35 so i cant really see it 22:22:50 you're swedish tho so ill take your word for her typically english looks 22:23:48 but yeah, im quite impressed with the way they all look. 22:23:58 no, norwegian 22:24:00 floral curtains are a british thing, I think? 22:24:04 much better than so many MTFs i've seen that started out late in life 22:24:10 oerjan: same difference. 22:24:11 :P 22:24:23 you all sound herdy gerdy gerdy 22:24:37 * oerjan swats psygnisfive ----### 22:24:41 ;) 22:24:54 *moans with delight* ;O 22:25:00 do it again ;O 22:25:14 actually norwegians from my part of the country have a _bit_ more continental intonation 22:25:40 (up north) 22:29:29 btw i think floral curtains are pretty big there too, when i think about it :D 22:43:27 * oerjan is also proud of his retroflex flap 22:50:21 it's really silent here, i'd have expected _someone_ to misunderstand my last comment 22:50:53 (not psygnisfive though, for obvious reasons) 22:51:17 its probably a tap, anyway. 22:51:33 flap is a bad term for the phenomena. 22:51:33 a tap. 22:51:46 the only reason it persists is tradition. 22:51:49 like so many other things. 22:51:52 the wp page said there was no agreement to distinguish those terms 22:52:01 this is true 22:52:11 that doesn't mean one isn't a crummy term. :P 22:52:49 but if you pronounce "flap" with the right Indian accent, it contains one. QED. 22:53:02 qed nothin 23:02:06 qed pasa 23:05:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 23:06:13 what? GreaseMonkey at this time of day? 23:06:35 oerjan: it's the holidays 23:06:42 Hello GreaseMonkey at this time of day 23:07:24 that would be - spring break or something? 23:07:58 curiously, i think it's autumn break here, as well 23:08:07 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:10:57 it's a symmetry! now we just need to convince the kiwis to celebrate christmas in june... 23:11:26 * oerjan googles to check if "kiwi" is offensive... 23:13:10 * oerjan concludes it's not 23:14:21 Let's make it offensive 23:14:29 Let's invente some stereotypes for kiwis. 23:14:32 as you wish, froggie 23:14:37 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 23:14:46 Did you know that kiwis were only good at curling? 23:15:11 probably cricket too 23:15:27 that's just as obscure, so no problem 23:15:51 Were you aware that kiwi women were shrill and obnoxious 23:16:07 And that kiwi men are all thieves and smell bad 23:16:20 also very skinny 23:17:07 They have hairy palms 23:17:36 Their traditional festivities involve bells attached to their ears. 23:17:53 Their traditional meals include the wallaby sausage 23:17:58 hm all thieves - yeah, that's true, i remember seeing "Once were warriors" 23:18:09 insert joke about kiwi nigger spic gooks 23:18:12 definitely lots of thieves in that 23:18:21 hmm... 23:18:23 kiwi nigger spic gook faggots 23:18:24 there 23:18:30 that should make it offensive by association 23:18:33 You forgot jews 23:18:37 kiwi nigger spic gook faggot jews. 23:18:41 You forgot Poland 23:18:48 kiwi nigger spic gook faggot jew poles. 23:18:50 Slereah_: wallabies are australian. let's not be inaccurate here 23:19:12 also 23:19:13 Slereah_: 23:19:15 EVERYONE forgets poland 23:19:21 Don't they also live in kiwiland? 23:19:47 ehird: yeah the russians tend to run all over it before they notice 23:19:53 the germans too, sometimes 23:20:08 hm lemme check 23:20:46 GreaseMonkey 23:20:58 We need your stamp of approval for those stereotypes 23:21:29 jews & poles = bullshit 23:21:59 faggot = no, i'm not one, and don't forget that gay marriage is legal in states in the US, too 23:22:00 joles 23:22:03 JOLES 23:22:07 jew poles = JOLES 23:22:10 Joules 23:22:13 spic & gook = wtf are those 23:22:16 oerjan: fuck you, joule 23:22:27 gook is for Asian people 23:22:28 nigger = well, i'm not one, but you've covered about 30% 23:22:30 Spics are for hispanics 23:22:40 erm, we have sod-all hispanics 23:22:51 kiwi = damn straight 23:23:13 But what of those kiwi stereotypes we invented 23:23:18 Do they meet your approval 23:23:21 ehird: i'm very energetic 23:23:37 jouikeriwi 23:23:44 joufaikeriwi 23:23:51 jew pole faggot spic gook nigger kiwi 23:24:02 oerjan: YOU'RE A JOUFAIKERIWI 23:26:10 * oerjan swats ehird ===\_/\_/ 23:26:18 whoops, that was the saucepan 23:27:20 it already had one bump in it, from AnMaster 23:28:13 * ehird sniff 23:28:15 * ehird whimper 23:28:16 * ehird sob 23:28:22 * ehird walk into corner 23:28:24 * ehird sit down 23:28:26 * ehird sob 23:29:22 * oerjan gives ehird some s'es 23:29:33 * ehird looks at oerjan whimpering 23:29:38 * ehird was hit by a saucepan :( 23:30:08 Delicious sauce 23:30:17 -pan 23:30:27 Pans are for pansexuals, ehird 23:30:29 WELL WHAT DO YOU EXPECT WHEN YOU GO AROUND CALLING PEOPLE JOUFAIKERIWIS? 23:30:38 oerjan: Okay, true. 23:35:30 * oerjan realizes he knows no good way to insult an englishman 23:35:52 oerjan: Reference tea, crumpts, or 'jolly good old bean'. 23:36:44 those are insults? o_O 23:36:56 i thought they were facts 23:37:03 Not really. 23:37:04 :P 23:37:06 also ha 23:37:32 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers5/117961414980-1.png 23:37:50 Sing with me: 23:37:54 GCC, a slow piece of shit! 23:37:57 GCC, suck a dick. t. 23:38:01 GCC, I hate you! 23:38:04 COMPILE THIS 23:38:06 OR I'LL KILL YOU 23:38:12 Yes, I can rhyme you with you. 23:38:34 hm no wonder it's hard. the first on "insult an englishman" contains: 23:38:49 "you could insult an Italian if you smiled at his sister, whereas to insult an Englishman you had to stamp on his top hat and sleep with his wife." 23:39:07 It's impossible to insult me, then. 23:39:46 you have neither a top hat nor a wife, i take 23:40:02 theoretically you _could_ have a top hat 23:40:26 you could borrow GregorR's 23:40:34 oerjan : What if I just slept with his wife? 23:40:40 Would he be insulted? 23:40:41 (is that grammatical?) 23:40:48 Or do I also have to stamp on his hat. 23:40:57 Slereah_: No. 23:40:59 both i assume 23:41:34 I hate gcc 23:45:02 Never be rude to an Arab, 23:45:10 An Israeli or Saudi or Jew. 23:45:18 Never be rude to an Irishman 23:45:28 No matter what you do. 23:45:44 Never pull fun at a nigger, 23:45:54 A spic or a wop or a kraut, 23:46:15 And never poke fun at a 23:46:26 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lost terminal"). 23:47:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:47:38 *ahem* 23:47:53 :D 23:48:38 which really only proves that englishmen are geniuses at insulting _others_ 23:50:02 oh wait scratch that 23:50:12 s/englishmen/welsh/ 23:50:19 Englishmen are geniuses at comedy. 23:50:47 especially insulting comedy 23:51:02 Well, yes. That *is* a national favourite. 23:54:11 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 23:54:18 "...Terry Jones stated that to his knowledge Ireland had only banned four movies, three of which he had directed..." 23:54:40 (one of them was banned in norway too) 2008-10-08: 00:01:03 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 00:02:57 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 00:04:09 -!- ihope has joined. 00:14:10 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:28:59 -!- ihope has quit ("leaving"). 01:24:12 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:24:16 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:50:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | even its core is quite complex already... 01:51:25 oh noes! 04:26:22 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 04:31:11 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 04:38:39 -!- CO2Games has left (?). 04:43:39 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:55:08 -!- CO2Games has joined. 04:56:22 -!- CO2Games has quit (Client Quit). 05:30:14 -!- CO2Games has joined. 05:31:54 ^echo hi 05:31:59 ^def 05:32:03 wtf 05:33:15 -!- CO2Bot has joined. 05:33:40 ^echo hi 05:33:40 hi hi 05:33:43 aha! 05:33:51 so it is true 05:33:55 ^echo ha 05:33:59 ^echo ha 05:34:00 ^echo hi 05:34:09 lol 05:35:58 bot.say ^def badrot13 bf >,[>,]<[<]+[>+++++++++++++.] 05:36:13 bot.say ^def badrot13 bf >,[>,]<[<]+[>+++++++++++++.] 05:36:13 ^def badrot13 bf >,[>,]<[<]+[>+++++++++++++.] 05:36:13 Defined. 05:36:34 bot.say ^badrot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 05:36:34 ^badrot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 05:36:34 nopqrstuvwxyz{|}~..................................................................................................................................................................................... ... 05:37:59 bot.say ^def badrot13 bf >,[>,]<[<]>[+++++++++++++.[+]>] 05:37:59 ^def badrot13 bf >,[>,]<[<]>[+++++++++++++.[+]>] 05:38:00 Defined. 05:38:04 bot.say ^badrot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 05:38:05 ^badrot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 05:38:05 nopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ 05:38:28 bot.say ^badrot13 ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ 05:38:29 ^badrot13 ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ 05:38:30 NOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefg 05:39:08 bot.say ^help 05:39:08 ^help 05:39:08 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 05:39:13 bot.say ^show 05:39:13 ^show 05:39:13 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc aaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul dick repeat def 05:39:34 bot.say ^reverb hello 05:39:34 ^reverb hello 05:39:34 hheelllloo 05:39:39 oo 05:39:53 bot.say ^reverb 05:39:53 ^reverb 05:40:05 bot.say ^show bf 05:40:05 ^show bf 05:40:06 [] 05:40:41 bot.say ^top 05:40:41 ^top 05:40:41 optbot! 05:40:42 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I got no clue, anyway remember that I'm 18, so it may be too old. 05:41:29 bot.say ^wc hello 05:41:29 ^wc hello 05:41:42 bot.say ^aaa hi 05:41:43 ^aaa hi 05:41:43 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ... 05:41:45 <_< 05:42:16 bot.say ^enctst abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 05:42:16 ^enctst abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 05:42:25 .defghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz................................................................................................................................................ ...out of time! 05:42:44 bot.say ^enctst ABCDEFG 05:42:44 ^enctst ABCDEFG 05:42:51 .DEFG.......................................................................................................................................................................................................... ... 05:43:00 mhmm 05:43:27 bot.say ^me hi 05:43:28 ^me hi 05:43:28 .ACTION hi. 05:43:39 bot.say ^lolercakes hi 05:43:39 ^lolercakes hi 05:43:39 hi. 05:44:00 bot.say ^show def 05:44:01 ^show def 05:44:01 [] 05:46:34 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:46:56 -!- Asztal has joined. 05:47:25 bot.say ^def rot128 ,[>++++++++[<++++++++++++++++>-].,] 05:47:25 ^def rot128 ,[>++++++++[<++++++++++++++++>-].,] 05:47:25 Usage: ^def 05:47:32 bot.say ^def rot128 bf ,[>++++++++[<++++++++++++++++>-].,] 05:47:32 ^def rot128 bf ,[>++++++++[<++++++++++++++++>-].,] 05:47:32 Defined. 05:47:38 ^rot128 hello 05:47:48 ... 05:47:53 oh right 05:48:03 bot.say ^rot128 hello 05:48:03 ^rot128 hello 05:48:04 ..... 05:48:15 bot.say ^rot128 greetings 05:48:15 ^rot128 greetings 05:48:16 ......... 05:48:25 bot.say ^rot128 z 05:48:25 ^rot128 z 05:48:26 . 05:48:44 bot.say ^rot128 ñ 05:48:44 ^rot128 ñ 05:48:44 .. 05:48:49 + 05:48:56 bot.say ^rot128 + 05:48:56 ^rot128 + 05:48:56 . 05:48:58 i think it only prints characters in the range 32-127 or thereabouts 05:49:05 aww 05:50:55 bot.say ^def evil bf ,[+.,] 05:50:56 ^def evil bf ,[+.,] 05:50:56 Defined. 05:51:03 bot.say ^evil omghax 05:51:04 ^evil omghax 05:51:04 pnhiby 05:51:33 bot.say ^evil this is a shitty encryption 05:51:33 ^evil this is a shitty encryption 05:51:33 uijt!jt!b!tijuuz!fodszqujpo 05:52:03 bot.say ^def unevil bf ,[-.,] 05:52:03 ^def unevil bf ,[-.,] 05:52:04 Defined. 05:52:24 bot.say ^unevil uijt!jt!b!tijuuz!fodszqujpo 05:52:25 ^unevil uijt!jt!b!tijuuz!fodszqujpo 05:52:25 this is a shitty encryption 05:52:42 bot.say ^unevil lol at the dots 05:52:43 ^unevil lol at the dots 05:52:43 knk.`s.sgd.cnsr 05:53:09 bot.say ^unevil abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 05:53:09 ^unevil abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 05:53:10 `abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxy 05:53:16 bot.say ^evil abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 05:53:17 ^evil abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 05:53:17 bcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{ 05:53:21 bot.say ^rot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 05:53:22 ^rot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 05:53:23 nopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklm 05:53:35 bot.say ^rot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz123456omgroflhax 05:53:35 ^rot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz123456omgroflhax 05:53:37 nopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklm123456bztebsyunk 05:56:12 what's with you guys, always bickering 05:56:42 * oerjan swats oklocod ----### 05:56:47 I AM NOT BICKERING 05:57:44 I WAS TALKING TO THE BOTS YOU MISGUIDED ANTEVIGILANTE IDIOT 05:58:11 I'M SO MAD 05:58:23 i'm mad, you're mad 05:58:58 also, i think that should be ANTEDILUVIAN 05:59:07 seeing as i'm the oldest one here 05:59:28 bot.say ^def totallyevil ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<<.,] 05:59:29 ^def totallyevil ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<<.,] 05:59:29 Usage: ^def 05:59:34 bot.say ^def totallyevil bf ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<<.,] 05:59:35 ^def totallyevil bf ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<<.,] 05:59:35 Defined. 05:59:42 oerjan: you're not the oldest for long btw 05:59:46 bot.say ^totallyevil omg wtf hax 05:59:47 ^totallyevil omg wtf hax 05:59:47 omg wtf hax 05:59:49 err 05:59:54 oklocod: how so? 05:59:58 well 06:00:18 i'm gonna get older soon, at least i'm planning to. 06:00:28 oshit 06:00:40 i'm aiming for 30yo by 2020 06:00:42 bot.say ^def totallyevil bf ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<+<.,] 06:00:43 ^def totallyevil bf ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<+<.,] 06:00:43 Defined. 06:00:44 bot.say ^totallyevil omg wtf hax 06:00:45 ^totallyevil omg wtf hax 06:00:45 oni#{yl'pj 06:01:22 bot.say ^totallyevil ................ 06:01:23 ^totallyevil ................ 06:01:23 ./0123456789:;<= 06:01:32 bot.say ^totallyevil .......... 06:01:32 ^totallyevil .......... 06:01:33 ./01234567 06:01:43 bot.say ^totallyevil .................. 06:01:43 also this dog, it's crying. 06:01:43 ^totallyevil .................. 06:01:44 ./0123456789:;<=>? 06:01:47 bot.say ^totallyevil ................. 06:01:48 ^totallyevil ................. 06:01:48 ./0123456789:;<=> 06:02:08 oklocod: WHAT DOG? 06:02:10 bot.say ^totallyevil abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 06:02:11 ^totallyevil abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 06:02:11 acegikmoqsuwy{} 06:02:17 and it wants to eat my moneys 06:02:24 bot.say ^totallyevil ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ 06:02:24 ^totallyevil ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ 06:02:25 ACEGIKMOQSUWY[]_acegikmoqs 06:02:25 THERE'S A DOG IN MY HOUSE 06:02:33 WHAT IS IT DOING HERE?!?!?!? 06:02:47 it's here to eat you 06:02:47 it lives here, to be exact 06:03:02 actually it's eating something very questionable from the floor. 06:03:13 probably my cut nail pieces :) 06:03:15 bot.say ^totallyevil actually this is fun 06:03:15 ^totallyevil actually this is fun 06:03:15 advxeqr(}rt-w0w 06:03:23 OUCH 06:03:37 NO NOT THAT KINDA NAILS SILLY MISTER HIHIHI :D 06:03:42 bot.say ^totallyevil Words are of silver 06:03:42 ^totallyevil Words are of silver 06:03:42 Wptgw%gym)yq,w{v 06:03:48 did you see that sentence? 06:03:49 bot.say ^totallyevil Silence is golden 06:03:49 ^totallyevil Silence is golden 06:03:49 Sjnhrhk'q|*r{yrt~ 06:04:02 bot.say ^totallyevil NO NOT THAT KINDA NAILS SILLY MISTER HIHIHI :D 06:04:02 ^totallyevil NO NOT THAT KINDA NAILS SILLY MISTER HIHIHI :D 06:04:03 NP"QSY&[PJ^+WV\SQ1`T]ai7kbfgu=khsuguDmooqqsKfq 06:04:10 wow all mine sentences keepgrowing inwordsizeexceptnowi'mjustcheating 06:04:29 lol 06:04:36 oklocod: ithinkit'shardenoughtoreadwillallthenoisearoundsopleasestop 06:04:40 bot.say ^totallyevil CO2Games 06:04:41 ^totallyevil CO2Games 06:04:41 CP4Jerkz 06:04:47 ... 06:04:47 wow 06:04:57 the truth is out! 06:05:03 :-D 06:05:14 bot.say ^totallyevil CP4Jerkz 06:05:14 ^totallyevil CP4Jerkz 06:05:15 CQ6Miwq 06:05:17 wtf 06:05:22 bot.say ^totallyevil CQMiwq 06:05:23 ^totallyevil CQMiwq 06:05:23 CROl{v 06:05:26 "child porn for jerks", for that a coincidence? 06:05:34 what the 06:05:35 hmm 06:05:51 wow oklo 06:05:56 didn't see that 06:06:00 oh the plot deepens 06:06:12 CO2Games: you don't need to explain... 06:06:18 we don't wanna know 06:06:26 bot.say ^totallyevil CrashHelper 06:06:27 ^totallyevil CrashHelper 06:06:27 CscvlMksxn| 06:06:34 bot.say ^totallyevil CO2Bot 06:06:35 ^totallyevil CO2Bot 06:06:35 CP4Esy 06:06:38 oh 06:06:43 ^totallyevil oerjan 06:06:43 oftmes 06:06:46 i now seeee 06:06:53 bot.say ^totallyevil oklocod 06:06:53 ^totallyevil oklocod 06:06:53 olnrgtj 06:07:03 bot.say ^totallyevil olnrgtj 06:07:04 ^totallyevil olnrgtj 06:07:05 ompukyp 06:07:15 bot.say ^totallyevil ompukyp 06:07:15 hmm 06:07:15 ^totallyevil ompukyp 06:07:15 onrxo~v 06:07:20 lecture in 8 minutes 06:07:21 -> 06:07:27 bot.say ^totallyevil lecture 06:07:27 ^totallyevil lecture 06:07:27 lfewywk 06:07:30 bot.say ^totallyevil math 06:07:31 ^totallyevil math 06:07:31 mbvk 06:07:34 bot.say ^totallyevil science 06:07:34 ^totallyevil science 06:07:35 sdkhrhk 06:07:41 bot.say ^totallyevil social studies 06:07:41 ^totallyevil social studies 06:07:41 i'm more and more late every day even though i wake up earlier and earlier :-) 06:07:42 speleq&z|~ntq 06:07:42 -> 06:07:51 see social studies is pure shit 06:07:53 imagine that 06:07:55 I've got an idea though 06:08:35 ^totallyevil John McCain 06:08:35 Jpjq$RiJirx 06:08:41 ^totallyevil Barack Obama 06:08:42 Bbtdgp&Vjjwl 06:08:50 ^totallyevil Sarah Palin 06:08:51 Sbtdl%Vhtrx 06:09:00 disappointing 06:09:19 ^totallyevil Joe Biden 06:09:20 Jpg#Fnjlv 06:09:29 ^totallyevil Osama bin Laden 06:09:29 Otcpe%hpv)Vlpr| 06:09:35 bot.say ^totallyevil MDCCLXXVI 06:09:36 ^totallyevil MDCCLXXVI 06:09:36 MEEFP]^]Q 06:10:15 bot.say ^totallyevil IN GOD WE TRUST 06:10:15 ^totallyevil IN GOD WE TRUST 06:10:16 IO"JSI&^M)^]a`b 06:10:21 bot.say ^totallyevil Linux 06:10:21 ^totallyevil Linux 06:10:22 Ljpx| 06:10:25 bot.say ^totallyevil Windows 06:10:25 ^totallyevil Windows 06:10:25 Wjpgs|y 06:10:29 bot.say ^totallyevil Bill Gates 06:10:30 ^totallyevil Bill Gates 06:10:30 ^totallyevil Linus Torvalds 06:10:30 Bjno$Lg{m| 06:10:30 Ljpxw%Zvzkwp 06:10:46 ... 06:10:47 wow 06:10:54 i think that about covers it 06:11:00 bot.say ^totallyevil UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 06:11:00 ^totallyevil UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 06:11:01 UOKWII&Z\J^P_-]U0R_Xf^YX 06:11:05 bot.say ^totallyevil THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 06:11:06 ^totallyevil THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 06:11:06 TIG#YSO[MM*^`NbTc1aY4Vc\jb]\ 06:11:15 bot.say ^totallyevil Oil prices 06:11:16 ^totallyevil Oil prices 06:11:16 Ojn#twojm| 06:11:19 ^totallyevil Europe 06:11:19 Evtrtj 06:11:26 bot.say ^totallyevil England 06:11:27 ^totallyevil England 06:11:27 Eoioesj 06:11:29 bot.say ^totallyevil Asia 06:11:30 ^totallyevil Asia 06:11:30 Atkd 06:11:35 bot.say ^totallyevil Africa 06:11:36 ^totallyevil Africa 06:11:36 Agtlgf 06:11:37 ^totallyevil China 06:11:37 Cikqe 06:11:42 bot.say ^totallyevil China...hey! 06:11:43 ^totallyevil China...hey! 06:11:43 Cikqe345pn, 06:11:54 ^totallyevil Japan 06:11:54 Jbrdr 06:12:00 bot.say ^totallyevil Nuclear Bomb 06:12:00 ^totallyevil Nuclear Bomb 06:12:01 Nveoifx'Jxwm 06:12:07 ^totallyevil Cthulhu 06:12:07 Cujxpm{ 06:12:10 bot.say ^totallyevil Gasoline 06:12:11 ^totallyevil Gasoline 06:12:11 Gburpntl 06:12:17 bot.say ^totallyevil fungot 06:12:17 ^totallyevil fungot 06:12:17 CO2Games: i got the ' obscure' part down pat, still working on the interpreter 06:12:17 fvpjsy 06:12:27 rofl 06:12:33 bot.say ^totallyevil obscure 06:12:34 ^totallyevil obscure 06:12:34 ocufywk 06:12:37 bot.say ^totallyevil optbot 06:12:38 ^totallyevil optbot 06:12:38 oqvesy 06:12:39 CO2Games: doesn't matter, because it's undefined 06:12:39 CO2Bot: i found it out few days ago 06:12:49 bot.say ^totallyevil CO2Games 06:12:49 ^totallyevil CO2Games 06:12:50 CP4Jerkz 06:12:55 ^totallyevil Brainfuck 06:12:55 Bsclrk{js 06:13:03 ^totallyevil Haskell 06:13:03 Hbuniqr 06:13:06 bot.say ^totallyevil Murder 06:13:06 ^totallyevil Murder 06:13:06 Mvtgiw 06:13:12 bot.say ^totallyevil O.J. Simpson 06:13:13 ^totallyevil O.J. Simpson 06:13:13 O/L1$Xotx|yy 06:13:15 ^totallyevil Malbolge 06:13:15 Mbnesqml 06:13:21 ^totallyevil Unlambda 06:13:21 Uondqgjh 06:13:23 bot.say ^totallyevil The Simpsons 06:13:23 ^totallyevil The Simpsons 06:13:23 Tig#Wnsw{xx~ 06:13:29 bot.say ^totallyevil NBC 06:13:29 ^totallyevil NBC 06:13:29 NCE 06:13:35 ooh "ond" = evil in norwegian 06:14:00 bot.say ^totallyevil totallyond 06:14:00 ^totallyevil totallyond 06:14:01 tpvdpqvvm 06:14:04 ^totallyevil INTERCAL 06:14:05 IOVHVHGS 06:14:15 bot.say ^totallyevil C++ 06:14:15 ^totallyevil C++ 06:14:16 C,- 06:14:21 bot.say ^totallyevil C# 06:14:22 ^totallyevil C# 06:14:22 C$ 06:14:27 bot.say ^totallyevil Perl 06:14:27 ^totallyevil Perl 06:14:27 Pfto 06:14:31 bot.say ^totallyevil Python 06:14:31 ^totallyevil Python 06:14:32 Pzvkss 06:14:32 ^totallyevil Python 06:14:32 Pzvkss 06:14:36 lol 06:14:41 ^totallyevil Scheme 06:14:41 Sdjhqj 06:14:41 bot.say ^totallyevil PHP 06:14:42 ^totallyevil PHP 06:14:42 PIR 06:14:47 bot.say ^totallyevil HTML 06:14:48 ^totallyevil HTML 06:14:48 HUOO 06:14:52 bot.say ^totallyevil XML 06:14:52 ^totallyevil XML 06:14:53 XNN 06:14:58 oh that sounds evil 06:14:58 bot.say ^totallyevil ML 06:14:58 ^totallyevil ML 06:14:59 MM 06:15:09 bot.say ^totallyevil XXX 06:15:09 ^totallyevil XXX 06:15:10 XYZ 06:15:12 bot.say ^totallyevil XNN 06:15:12 ^totallyevil XNN 06:15:13 XOP 06:15:17 bot.say ^totallyevil NOP 06:15:18 ^totallyevil NOP 06:15:18 NPR 06:15:20 ^unevil IBM 06:15:21 bot.say ^totallyevil Intel 06:15:21 HAL 06:15:21 ^totallyevil Intel 06:15:21 Iovhp 06:15:41 ...hal 06:15:44 man 06:15:46 HAL 06:15:47 OH SHIT 06:15:48 RUN 06:15:55 bot.say ^totallyevil GlaDOS 06:15:56 ^totallyevil GlaDOS 06:15:56 GmcGSX 06:16:03 bot.say ^totallyevil HAL 06:16:03 ^totallyevil HAL 06:16:04 HBN 06:16:06 I'm sorry, CO2Games, I cannot let you do that 06:16:10 bot.say ^totallyevil QVC 06:16:10 ^totallyevil QVC 06:16:11 QWE 06:16:11 rofl 06:16:17 bot.say ^totallyevil Soylent Green 06:16:17 ^totallyevil Soylent Green 06:16:18 Sp{oisz'O{opz 06:16:24 bot.say ^totallyevil Superman 06:16:24 ^totallyevil Superman 06:16:25 Svrhvrgu 06:16:31 bot.say ^totallyevil Yourmom 06:16:32 ^totallyevil Yourmom 06:16:32 Ypwuqts 06:16:37 bot.say ^totallyevil Random 06:16:39 ^totallyevil Random 06:16:39 Rbpgsr 06:16:44 ^totallyevil Lex Luthor 06:16:45 Lfz#Pzzow{ 06:16:47 bot.say ^totallyevil Gibberish 06:16:47 ^totallyevil Gibberish 06:16:47 Gjdeiwozp 06:16:57 bot.say ^totallyevil evil 06:16:58 ^totallyevil evil 06:16:58 ewko 06:17:03 bot.say ^totallyevil Ewok 06:17:03 ^totallyevil Ewok 06:17:03 Exqn 06:17:17 bot.say ^totallyevil ExxonMobile 06:17:19 ^totallyevil ExxonMobile 06:17:19 EyzrrRuiquo 06:17:30 bot.say ^totallyevil drainfuck 06:17:30 ^totallyevil drainfuck 06:17:31 dsclrk{js 06:17:39 bot.say ^totallyevil Hostpital 06:17:39 ^totallyevil Hostpital 06:17:40 Hpuwtnzht 06:17:43 bot.say ^totallyevil Nazi 06:17:43 ^totallyevil Nazi 06:17:43 Nb|l 06:17:47 bot.say ^totallyevil Hitler 06:17:47 ^totallyevil Hitler 06:17:47 Hjvoiw 06:17:54 bot.say ^totallyevil Osama Bin Laden 06:17:55 ^totallyevil Osama Bin Laden 06:17:55 Otcpe%Hpv)Vlpr| 06:18:01 bot.say ^totallyevil George Bush 06:18:02 ^totallyevil George Bush 06:18:02 Gfqukj&I}|r 06:18:07 bot.say ^totallyevil Dick Cheney 06:18:07 ^totallyevil Dick Cheney 06:18:08 Djen$Hnlvn 06:18:17 bot.say ^totallyevil 9/11 06:18:17 ^totallyevil 9/11 06:18:18 9034 06:18:22 hmm... 06:18:28 that's interesting 06:18:36 bot.say ^totallyevil Html 06:18:36 ^totallyevil Html 06:18:36 Huoo 06:18:44 bot.say ^totallyevil asp 06:18:44 ^totallyevil asp 06:18:45 atr 06:18:48 bot.say ^totallyevil ass 06:18:48 ^totallyevil ass 06:18:48 atu 06:18:55 i sense some repetition 06:18:56 bot.say ^totallyevil Spanish 06:18:57 ^totallyevil Spanish 06:18:57 Sqcqmxn 06:19:03 bot.say ^totallyevil Death 06:19:04 ^totallyevil Death 06:19:04 Dfcwl 06:19:06 bot.say ^totallyevil Chaos 06:19:07 ^totallyevil Chaos 06:19:07 Cicrw 06:19:10 bot.say ^totallyevil Circus 06:19:10 ^totallyevil Circus 06:19:11 Cjtfyx 06:19:16 bot.say ^totallyevil Rectify 06:19:16 ^totallyevil Rectify 06:19:17 Rfewmk 06:19:21 bot.say ^totallyevil Rectal 06:19:21 ^totallyevil Lojban 06:19:21 ^totallyevil Rectal 06:19:21 Lplees 06:19:21 Rfeweq 06:19:33 bot.say ^totallyevil Anal Thermometer 06:19:34 ^totallyevil Anal Thermometer 06:19:34 Aoco$Ynlzvyxqs 06:19:38 bot.say ^totallyevil Anal Money 06:19:38 ^totallyevil Anal Money 06:19:38 Aoco$Ruum 06:19:40 er 06:19:40 ^totallyevil Esperanto 06:19:41 Etrhvft{w 06:19:42 I mean 06:19:45 bot.say ^totallyevil Money 06:19:45 ^totallyevil Money 06:19:46 Mpph} 06:19:54 bot.say ^totallyevil darkness 06:19:54 ^totallyevil darkness 06:19:54 dbtnrjyz 06:20:01 bot.say ^totallyevil light 06:20:01 ^totallyevil light 06:20:01 ljikx 06:20:06 bot.say ^totallyevil CO2Games 06:20:07 ^totallyevil CO2Games 06:20:07 CP4Jerkz 06:20:15 I'm gonna have that in my head for days 06:20:21 bot.say ^totallyevil AnMaster 06:20:21 ^totallyevil AnMaster 06:20:21 AoOdwyky 06:20:27 bot.say ^totallyevil ais523 06:20:27 ^totallyevil ais523 06:20:28 aju868 06:20:37 bot.say ^totallyevil Asztal 06:20:37 ^totallyevil Asztal 06:20:38 At|weq 06:20:48 bot.say ^totallyevil bsmntbombdood 06:20:49 ^totallyevil bsmntbombdood 06:20:49 btoqxgutjmyzp 06:20:54 bot.say ^totallyevil clog 06:20:54 ^totallyevil clog 06:20:54 wut 06:20:55 cmqj 06:21:05 bot.say ^totallyevil cmeme 06:21:06 ^totallyevil cmeme 06:21:06 cngpi 06:21:09 bot.say ^totallyevil noob 06:21:09 ^totallyevil noob 06:21:10 npqe 06:21:14 bot.say ^totallyevil 1337 06:21:14 ^totallyevil 1337 06:21:14 145: 06:21:18 heh 06:21:23 bot.say ^totallyevil pikhq 06:21:24 ^totallyevil pikhq 06:21:24 pjmku 06:21:29 bot.say ^totallyevil some random person 06:21:30 ^totallyevil some random person 06:21:30 spoh$wgulxw+|r 06:21:59 bot.say ^totallyevil najreo 06:21:59 ^totallyevil najreo 06:21:59 nbluit 06:22:06 bot.say ^totallyevil tognuf 06:22:07 ^totallyevil tognuf 06:22:07 tpiqyk 06:22:24 bot.say ^totallyevil semaG2OC 06:22:25 ^totallyevil semaG2OC 06:22:25 sfodK7UJ 06:22:52 bot.say ^totallyevil tobtpo 06:22:53 ^totallyevil tobtpo 06:22:53 tpdwtt 06:23:10 bot.say ^totallyevil OMGWTFBBQ 06:23:10 ^totallyevil OMGWTFBBQ 06:23:10 ONIZXKHIY 06:23:24 bot.say ^totallyevil COMMAND.COM 06:23:24 ^totallyevil COMMAND.COM 06:23:24 CPOPESJ5KXW 06:23:34 C POPE random shit 06:23:41 ^totallyevil The Pope 06:23:42 bot.say ^totallyevil POPE 06:23:42 Tig#Ttvl 06:23:42 ^totallyevil POPE 06:23:42 PPRH 06:23:55 bot.say ^totallyevil Darth Vader 06:23:55 ^totallyevil Darth Vader 06:23:56 Dbtwl%\hln| 06:24:02 bot.say ^totallyevil Darth Maul 06:24:03 ^totallyevil Darth Maul 06:24:03 Dbtwl%Sh}u 06:24:10 bot.say ^totallyevil Darth Tyrannus 06:24:10 ^totallyevil Darth Tyrannus 06:24:11 Dbtwl%Zzjxy 06:24:12 ^totallyevil Jesus 06:24:12 Jfuxw 06:24:20 bot.say ^totallyevil God 06:24:20 ^totallyevil God 06:24:20 Gpf 06:24:29 ^totallyevil Devil 06:24:29 Dfxlp 06:24:31 bot.say ^totallyevil Joe Blow 06:24:32 ^totallyevil Joe Blow 06:24:32 Jpg#Fqu~ 06:24:40 bot.say ^totallyevil Anti-Jesus 06:24:41 ^totallyevil Anti-Jesus 06:24:41 Aovl1Okz}| 06:24:46 bot.say ^totallyevil Christ 06:24:46 ^totallyevil Christ 06:24:47 Citlwy 06:24:53 bot.say ^totallyevil AntiChrist 06:24:54 ^totallyevil AntiChrist 06:24:54 AovlGmxp{} 06:24:57 bot.say ^totallyevil Anti-Christ 06:24:57 ^totallyevil Anti-Christ 06:24:58 Aovl1Hnyq|~ 06:25:03 ^totallyevil Spam 06:25:03 Sqcp 06:25:08 hmm 06:25:17 bot.say ^show totallyevil 06:25:17 ^show totallyevil 06:25:17 ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<+<.,] 06:25:26 bot.say ^totallyevil ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<+<.,] 06:25:26 ^totallyevil ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<+<.,] 06:25:27 ,\@^@0DE3E7hJhJ:N>oO?QDCu 06:25:30 <_< 06:26:28 ^totallyevil totallyevil 06:26:43 bot.say ^totallyevil totallyevil 06:26:44 ^totallyevil totallyevil 06:26:44 tpvdpql~rv 06:26:47 bot.say ^totallyevil ^totallyevil 06:26:48 ^totallyevil ^totallyevil 06:26:48 ^uqweqrmsw 06:26:55 bot.say ^totallyevil Jedi 06:26:55 ^totallyevil Jedi 06:26:56 Jffl 06:26:56 -!- Azstal has joined. 06:26:59 bot.say ^totallyevil Sith 06:26:59 ^totallyevil Sith 06:26:59 Sjvk 06:27:04 bot.say ^totallyevil Luke 06:27:05 ^totallyevil Luke 06:27:05 Lvmh 06:27:08 bot.say ^totallyevil Skywalker 06:27:08 ^totallyevil Skywalker 06:27:08 Sl{zeqqlz 06:27:13 bot.say ^totallyevil Flying Person 06:27:14 ^totallyevil Flying Person 06:27:14 Fm{lrl&Wm{}zz 06:27:17 bot.say ^totallyevil Monkey 06:27:17 ^totallyevil Monkey 06:27:17 Mppni~ 06:27:24 bot.say ^totallyevil Whorse 06:27:25 ^totallyevil Whorse 06:27:25 Wiquwj 06:27:26 errr 06:27:29 bot.say ^totallyevil Horse 06:27:30 ^totallyevil Horse 06:27:30 Hptvi 06:27:37 bot.say ^totallyevil Whore 06:27:37 ^totallyevil Whore 06:27:38 Wiqui 06:27:39 bot.say ^totallyevil Whores 06:27:40 ^totallyevil Whores 06:27:40 Wiquix 06:27:48 bot.say ^evil Windows 06:27:48 ^evil Windows 06:27:49 Xjoepxt 06:27:54 bot.say ^evil CO2Games 06:27:55 ^evil CO2Games 06:27:55 DP3Hbnft 06:28:02 bot.say ^evil CO2Bot 06:28:03 ^evil CO2Bot 06:28:03 DP3Cpu 06:28:21 Bot + 1 = Cpu 06:28:23 <_< 06:28:29 that's interesting as hell 06:28:34 bot.say ^evil Linux 06:28:34 ^evil Linux 06:28:34 Mjovy 06:28:38 bot.say ^evil Bill Gates 06:28:38 ^evil Bill Gates 06:28:38 Cjmm!Hbuft 06:28:50 bot.say ^evil Doctor Pepper 06:28:50 ^evil Doctor Pepper 06:28:50 Epdups!Qfqqfs 06:28:58 bot.say ^evil Professor 06:28:58 ^evil Professor 06:28:59 Qspgfttps 06:29:01 bot.say ^evil Fail 06:29:02 ^evil Fail 06:29:02 Gbjm 06:29:09 bot.say ^totallyevil Fail 06:29:09 ^totallyevil Fail 06:29:09 Fbko 06:29:11 bot.say ^totallyevil Win 06:29:11 ^totallyevil Win 06:29:11 Wjp 06:29:15 bot.say ^totallyevil Suck 06:29:15 ^totallyevil Suck 06:29:15 Sven 06:29:25 yay 06:29:25 bot.say ^totallyevil Eleven 06:29:26 ^totallyevil Eleven 06:29:26 Emgyis 06:29:37 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("So, how much do you love noodles?"). 06:29:39 bot.say ^totallyevil hoes 06:29:40 ^totallyevil hoes 06:29:40 hpgv 06:29:46 bot.say ^totallyevil hose 06:29:46 ^totallyevil hose 06:29:46 hpuh 06:29:56 bot.say ^totallyevil Dell 06:29:56 ^totallyevil Dell 06:29:56 Dfno 06:30:03 bot.say ^totallyevil eMachines 06:30:04 ^totallyevil eMachines 06:30:04 eNcflntl{ 06:30:06 ^totallyevil Crows 06:30:06 Csqzw 06:30:12 bot.say ^totallyevil Birds 06:30:12 ^totallyevil Birds 06:30:13 Bjtgw 06:30:15 bot.say ^totallyevil Planes 06:30:16 ^totallyevil Planes 06:30:16 Pmcqix 06:30:20 bot.say ^totallyevil Trains 06:30:21 ^totallyevil Trains 06:30:21 Tsclrx 06:30:26 bot.say ^totallyevil Automobiles 06:30:26 ^totallyevil Automobiles 06:30:26 Avvrqthptn} 06:30:35 bot.say ^totallyevil Cars 06:30:35 ^totallyevil Cars 06:30:35 Cbtv 06:30:40 ^totallyevil Raptors 06:30:40 Rbrwswy 06:30:44 bot.say ^totallyevil Arse 06:30:44 ^totallyevil Arse 06:30:44 Asuh 06:30:55 bot.say ^totallyevil Cyborg Jesus 06:30:56 ^totallyevil Cyborg Jesus 06:30:56 Czdrvl&Qm|~ 06:31:01 bot.say ^totallyevil Terminator 06:31:02 ^totallyevil Terminator 06:31:02 Tftpmsg{w{ 06:31:16 bot.say ^totallyevil Holy Shit 06:31:17 ^totallyevil Holy Shit 06:31:17 Hpn|$Xnp| 06:32:37 bot.say ^def suparevil bf ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<++>-]<+<.,] 06:32:37 ^def suparevil bf ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<++>-]<+<.,] 06:32:37 Defined. 06:32:46 bot.say ^suparevil Holy Shit 06:32:47 ^suparevil Holy Shit 06:32:47 Hpo/rs 06:32:49 bot.say ^suparevil Jesus 06:32:50 ^suparevil Jesus 06:32:50 Jfv| 06:32:52 bot.say ^suparevil Mother 06:32:53 ^suparevil Mother 06:32:53 Mpwot 06:32:57 bot.say ^suparevil Face 06:32:58 ^suparevil Face 06:32:58 Fbfl 06:33:02 bot.say ^suparevil Brain 06:33:02 ^suparevil Brain 06:33:03 Bsdp} 06:33:09 bot.say ^totallyevil Brain 06:33:10 ^totallyevil Brain 06:33:10 Bsclr 06:33:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:33:20 bot.say ^suparevil GreaseMonkey 06:33:21 ^suparevil GreaseMonkey 06:33:22 Gshhmjdx 06:33:28 bot.say ^totallyevil GreaseMonkey 06:33:29 ^totallyevil GreaseMonkey 06:33:29 GsgdwjSvvto 06:33:32 bot.say ^evil GreaseMonkey 06:33:33 ^evil GreaseMonkey 06:33:33 HsfbtfNpolfz 06:33:36 bot.say ^unevil GreaseMonkey 06:33:36 ^unevil GreaseMonkey 06:33:36 Fqd`rdLnmjdx 06:33:44 hmm 06:33:58 I have to say this is fun 06:34:17 I have to say you are easily amused 06:34:22 bot.say ^suparevil 06:34:22 ^suparevil 06:34:26 bot.say ^suparevil nothing 06:34:26 ^suparevil nothing 06:34:26 npwox 06:34:38 bot.say ^suparevil CO2Games 06:34:38 ^suparevil CO2Games 06:34:39 CP5Np 06:34:51 bot.say ^suparevil CO2Bot 06:34:52 ^suparevil CO2Bot 06:34:52 CP5I~ 06:34:57 bot.say ^suparevil Fail 06:34:57 ^suparevil Fail 06:34:58 Fbls 06:35:02 bot.say ^suparevil oerjan 06:35:02 ^suparevil oerjan 06:35:02 ofuqp 06:35:10 bot.say ^suparevil () 06:35:11 ^suparevil () 06:35:11 (* 06:35:18 bot.say ^suparevil !@#$%^&*()_+ 06:35:18 ^suparevil !@#$%^&*()_+ 06:35:19 !A&+4}e'(^* 06:36:01 bot.say ^suparevil lol 06:36:01 ^suparevil lol 06:36:02 lpo 06:36:05 bot.say ^suparevil lipo 06:36:06 ^suparevil lipo 06:36:06 ljsv 06:36:17 bot.say ^totallyevil Joe Biden 06:36:17 ^totallyevil Joe Biden 06:36:17 Jpg#Fnjlv 06:36:21 bot.say ^totallyevil Hillary Clinton 06:36:22 ^totallyevil Hillary Clinton 06:36:22 Hjnoew'Kusy|| 06:36:34 bot.modules 06:36:34 Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALKTO, TALK. 06:36:45 -!- CO2Bot has left (?). 06:44:30 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 06:52:24 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 07:18:55 -!- Asztal^_^ has joined. 07:19:08 -!- Asztal^_^ has changed nick to Asztal. 07:23:16 Okay, what nonsense was that? 07:32:43 Hrm. 07:32:53 Notta clue. 07:37:22 -!- Azstal has quit (Connection timed out). 07:50:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I'm not hungry.. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:09:31 spam it seems 08:10:57 Spam spam spam spam spam egg, bacon and spam 08:31:02 Damn, am I upset that the Apollo Applications Program fell through. 08:31:14 Among other things, it had planned and budgeted for a manned mission to Venus. 08:31:18 *In the 70s.* 08:55:28 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:28:56 -!- puzzlet_ has 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http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | !cuss GreaseMonkey. 14:30:21 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:33:01 -!- CO2Games has joined. 14:33:17 -!- CO2Bot has joined. 14:37:51 bot.say ^totallyevil E PLURIBUS UNUM 14:37:52 ^totallyevil E PLURIBUS UNUM 14:37:52 E!ROYWOI]\*`Zb[ 14:38:05 damn I swear there was something about it 14:38:13 -!- CO2Bot has left (?). 14:40:55 ais523, hi 14:41:05 CO2Bot? 14:41:12 And this is written IN 14:41:16 optbot ? 14:41:17 Mony: I think I can do this 14:41:24 good luck :D 14:41:26 ^show 14:41:27 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc aaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul dick repeat def rot128 evil unevil totallyevil suparevil 14:41:33 Who the hell added all this? 14:41:36 Did i start it? 14:44:30 No. 14:44:32 It was CO2Games. 14:44:41 Who should be informed that his incessant spamming from last night is _not_ welcome. 14:44:42 But i added new boring crap FIRST! 14:44:48 no 14:44:51 i mean by this 14:44:51 asiekierka: I'm afraid he's got you beat: 14:45:11 ^show 14:45:11 Uh oh 14:45:11 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc aaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul dick repeat def rot128 evil unevil totallyevil suparevil rot255 14:45:11 I know 14:45:14 Hmm 14:45:23 ^help 14:45:23 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 14:45:29 asiekierka: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.10.07 Skip to 11:28, when that spam stops, skip to 21:31. 14:45:31 Seriously, do it. 14:45:38 You think your spam is annoying, take a look at those two blocks. 14:46:01 Add a rule to the topic 14:46:05 "bot setup in #esoteric-blah" 14:46:08 No. 14:46:10 It's not bot setup. 14:46:14 He was fucking around with fungot too. 14:46:14 ehird: so if some author decides to create a programming language 14:46:25 Because making a bot say 'dick' 500 times is absolutely HILARIOUS. 14:46:49 I added ^fib 14:46:52 and he used it 14:46:52 luuulz 14:47:27 Wait; i must do some stuff 14:47:34 1) Make a tool saying "FAIL" in BF 14:47:41 2) Change all of CO2Games` unuseful functions into this 14:47:59 asiekierka: If you look at the log, most of his stuff is just using existing functions 14:48:10 bot.help 14:48:13 bot.modules 14:48:21 Hm. Where did CO2Bot go. 14:48:32 damn I swear there was something about it 14:48:32 * CO2Bot (n=CrashBot@75-163-236-8.clsp.qwest.net) has left #esoteric 14:48:34 CO2Games: Are you there? 14:48:40 CO2Games is scared of me 14:48:42 right 14:48:44 right 14:48:47 No. 14:49:31 let him prove that 14:49:46 don't be ridiculous... 14:51:16 No 14:51:16 i mean 14:51:29 show you are there 14:51:31 oh 14:51:31 i see 14:51:38 he's fixing his CO2Bot-whatever-is-it 14:52:03 Or he's just away. 14:52:10 That was 20 minutes ago. 14:54:27 hmm, i must write a BCT interpreter in BF 14:54:34 It'll basically convert BCT to CT and do with it 14:54:47 oh wait 14:54:58 i forgot BCT has a moving tape, is it only right-moving? 14:55:32 not sure 14:56:52 i think right-moving only 14:56:59 since you can only remove from the left and add to the right 14:57:04 which wouldn't be such good news 14:57:12 Oh wait 14:57:14 i think it is possible 14:57:15 :) 15:02:35 -!- jix has joined. 15:03:03 -!- ehird has changed nick to foobarbazquux. 15:03:46 -!- foobarbazquux has changed nick to ehird. 15:03:56 is it just me, or was CO2Games banned from executing fungot commands, while CO2Bot was not? 15:03:58 asiekierka: t_! ( for some value of fnord) implementations. 15:11:17 ^totallyevil Argbgd_kcX 15:11:18 Asiekierka 15:13:11 CN0D]h_lWjkX_f 15:13:29 Nn]t]dnXaVWbSjd`^V 15:13:58 Hd]foZdnkkUVSfgaQaM\N^O\[P\JCSTPGQ?JI@L 15:22:15 augh 15:22:37 o 15:41:57 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:43:02 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:44:37 wb ais523 15:45:28 thanks ehird 15:45:41 though if you private log is working you'd have already got a hi 15:45:49 yes, I did 15:45:52 slightly later though 15:45:58 as it was running through replays first 15:46:02 and I only have so much bandwidth... 15:48:41 ^show totallyevil 15:48:41 ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<+<.,] 15:48:44 hi ais523 15:49:56 hi asiekierka 15:50:13 i'm doing homework now 15:50:18 Maths done, Polish and English left 15:50:27 ^def te2 bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[+>]<[<]>] 15:50:27 Defined. 15:50:36 ^te2 Argbgd_kcX 15:50:37 Asiekierka 15:50:48 This is equal to Totallyevil then 15:50:49 :D 15:50:53 oh 15:50:54 right 15:50:56 TotallyEvil2 15:50:59 yes, but a pretty different implementation 15:50:59 *faceslap* 15:51:02 I was wondering which was better 15:51:14 ^show totallyevil 15:51:14 ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<+<.,] 15:51:16 ^show te2 15:51:16 >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[+>]<[<]>] 15:51:21 The one which CO2Games can't use for 3 hours, probably. 15:52:08 ^show rot13 15:52:09 ,[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+14<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>>+5[<-5>-]<2-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+ 15:52:24 uhh 15:52:29 who the hell did this with it 15:52:36 did what with it 15:52:38 ^rot13 pyjamas 15:52:39 clwnznf 15:52:50 that looks like a highly optimised for time implementation 15:53:09 it has no loops in, if I've guessed how it works correctly, apart from looping from one character to the next 15:53:11 http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/rot13.b 15:53:56 yes, I did guess correctly 15:54:18 ^rot13 isitfastwillweknowwillweknowohgodWdji(Z=H*>WbYfQZcNO[KTNRW[EKSUAUHHQWdji(Z=H*>WbYfQZcNO[KTNRW[EKSUAUHHQ 15:54:21 vfvgsnfgjvyyjrxabjjvyyjrxabjbutbqJqwv(M=U*>JoLsDMpAB[XGAEJ[RXFHNHUUDJqwv(M=U*>JoLsDMpAB[XGAEJ[RXFHNHUUD 15:54:28 ww....woah 15:54:32 Yes, it is 15:54:35 ^show 15:54:35 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc aaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul dick repeat def rot128 evil unevil totallyevil suparevil rot255 totallyevilenc say te2 15:54:44 wow, there are a lot of functions there... 15:54:44 ^badrot13 Wdji(Z=H*>WbYfQZcNO[KTNRW[EKSUAUHHQWdji(Z=H*>WbYfQZcNO[KTNRW[EKSUAUHHQWdji(Z=H*>WbYfQZcNO[KTNRW[EKSUAUHHQ 15:54:46 dqwv5gJU7Kdofs^gp[\hXa[_dhRX`bNbUU^dqwv5gJU7Kdofs^gp[\hXa[_dhRX`bNbUU^dqwv5gJU7Kdofs^gp[\hXa[_dhRX`bNbUU^ 15:54:50 ^echochohoo echochohoo 15:54:50 echochohoochochohoohochohooochohoochohoohohooohoohooooo 15:54:55 75% of them spammed by CO2Games 15:55:09 asiekierka: badrot13 just added 13 to every character IIRC 15:55:14 so I wrote trulyawfulrot13 as a joke 15:55:20 ^show trulyawfulrot13 15:55:20 ,[.+,] 15:55:26 Hah 15:55:27 which is a rot-26, of course 15:55:33 Yes 15:55:38 But i must fix it 15:55:49 * ais523 wonders if there's any way to delete a fungot command 15:55:50 ais523: i never figured if it's possible. 15:55:59 fizzie: do you know? 15:56:04 ^def trulyawfulrot13 bf ,[.++-++-++-++-++-++-++-++-++-++-++-++-++-,] 15:56:04 Defined. 15:56:06 No, i don't 15:56:13 ^trulyawfulrot13 this also works! :D 15:56:13 this also works! :D 15:56:16 :) 15:56:23 This is a TRULY awful rot13 15:56:31 it isnt possible ais523 15:56:34 ^show rev 15:56:34 >,[>,]<[.<] 15:56:37 ^show trulyawfulrot13 15:56:37 ^show rev2 15:56:37 ,[.+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-,] 15:56:37 >,[>,]<.<[.<] 15:56:37 because people didn't abuse it up until yesterday 15:56:49 you mean 15:56:50 sorry, this is all indirectly my fault 15:56:55 why? 15:56:55 Nope 15:56:57 CO2Games asked me if there was a bf-bot in here 15:57:02 yes, well 15:57:02 and I didn't know that answering was a bad idea 15:57:04 that's a reasonable question 15:57:09 But how could you know he wants to spam it 15:57:16 well, I didn't 15:57:20 So it's not evil 15:57:22 if you did know 15:57:24 if he'd asked you "is there a bot which I can use to spam shit for 5 hours?", then I'd understand you blaming yourself :-P 15:57:29 yes, I don't feel particularly guilty abuot it 15:57:44 Well, anyone can ask 15:57:49 at least I got one-up on CO2Games' BF skills 15:57:57 But only 1% of people can spam with it 15:57:57 ^show echo_cho_ho_o 15:57:57 >,[.>,]<[[<]+32.>[-]>[.>]<] 15:58:07 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to as[homework[. 15:58:09 -!- as[homework[ has changed nick to as[homework]. 15:59:59 You know, is there anything useful that can be written in BF? 16:00:14 anything for an Ircbot 16:00:18 any length 16:00:22 even 23MB 16:00:24 D: 16:00:33 as[homework]: there's an Underload interp in BF 16:00:41 although fungot won't run any but the simplest Underload programs 16:00:42 ais523: it's good practice 16:00:43 as it times out 16:00:57 yeah, but i have this old BFirc python bot 16:01:01 {{i should really make my own}} 16:01:06 my friend made for me 16:01:13 And this one doesn't time out 16:01:15 it's also pretty fast 16:01:17 hmm... maybe I should get thutubot in here 16:01:17 :) 16:01:20 Thutubot? 16:01:28 a bot I wrote in Thutu 16:01:30 oh 16:01:37 mostly it interprets Underload 16:01:55 Is there a stupid language that deserves having an ircbot written it 16:01:57 in* 16:02:20 -!- thutubot has joined. 16:02:26 +hi 16:02:36 hmm... I have to remember the syntax for this thing 16:02:41 +ul (:aSS):aSS 16:02:41 (:aSS):aSS 16:03:15 +ul (:^):^ 16:03:22 farewell thutubot 16:03:26 ehird: stop that, I don't have protection against infinite loops yet 16:03:34 +ul (:aSS):aSS 16:03:36 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:03:42 aaaAAUGH 16:03:54 i wonder what bot should i make 16:03:55 or no 16:03:58 in what programming language 16:04:05 I think Andrew's Programming Language looks interesting 16:04:11 and i have a Pascal lexems parser 16:04:15 it needs implementing first, but I agree 16:04:19 yeah 16:04:22 it's a pretty interesting language 16:04:23 irc implementing even 16:04:37 -!- thutubot has joined. 16:04:44 +hello 16:04:44 Hello, ais523! 16:04:50 ++hello 16:05:04 But as in 16:05:09 a bot interpreting APL code 16:05:10 :) 16:05:19 Since it's interesting for doing calCKulations 16:06:27 or no, it's too hard for me to implement 16:06:37 i prefer 1D langs 16:06:51 but a bot written in [...] needs 2D badly 16:07:09 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Betterave - an RPN calculator 16:10:08 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:19:43 Great 16:19:53 where to find a photo for a freaking pc programmer 16:20:54 wait 16:20:56 i found it 16:25:58 -!- as[homework] has changed nick to asiekierk. 16:26:00 -!- asiekierk has changed nick to asiekierka. 16:26:04 And i can safely change my nick back 16:26:12 since i finished my homeworkz! 16:26:17 well done 16:26:29 let us celebrate! 16:26:35 ++ul (a(:^)*S):^ 16:26:46 Underload is great for quines 16:26:53 I think that one was by Keymaker 16:29:14 ++ul () 16:29:20 Uh, well 16:29:35 ++ul (t)S 16:29:41 ++ul 16:29:44 that's also a quine 16:29:48 not a particularly interesting one though 16:30:11 ++ul () 16:30:19 ++ul ()S 16:30:22 ++ul (t)S 16:30:36 ++ul (S)S 16:30:58 i would have to remind myself of the cmds 16:31:02 hmm...zzo38 coming to conclusions via flawed premises on his blog... well, that's nothing new 16:32:03 I must program some stuff in underload 16:32:06 for the first time 16:32:07 i will 16:32:19 underload's main problem is lack of input 16:32:23 but you can still do interesting things with it 16:33:21 ++ul (asiekierka)(S)^ 16:33:27 wow 16:33:30 I didn't know that works 16:33:34 yes, that should work 16:33:36 Oh 16:33:41 How does it work 16:33:45 I thought you need ten ^ 16:33:49 no 16:33:51 ^ executes a command 16:33:56 yes 16:34:00 so you've put asiekierka on the stack, which is a string 16:34:05 and then S, which is both a string and a command 16:34:10 ooh 16:34:10 ^ runs the top command on the stack 16:34:11 i see 16:34:12 which is S in this case 16:34:19 and the S outputs the top string on the stack 16:34:21 which is asiekierka 16:34:39 ++ul (CO2Games)S(pammed) (us) (a) (lot) 16:34:45 :DDD 16:35:15 (kierka)(asie)*S 16:35:18 ++ul (kierka)(asie)*S 16:35:19 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:35:27 +ul (kierka)(asie)~*S 16:35:28 asiekierka 16:35:46 ++ul (asie)(kie)(rka)**S 16:35:46 +ul (asie)(kie)(rka)**S 16:35:47 asiekierka 16:35:47 Well 16:35:49 yay 16:36:32 +ul (asiekierka)(S)a*^ 16:36:35 hmm 16:36:47 . . . - - - ' ' ' - - - . . . 16:36:53 +ul (asiekierka)a(S)*^ 16:36:57 hmm 16:36:59 uh 16:37:01 did i crash it 16:37:03 +ul (alive?)S 16:37:06 uh oh 16:37:07 i did 16:37:11 I'll restart it 16:37:12 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:37:15 Oh right 16:37:17 i noticed why 16:37:22 -!- thutubot has joined. 16:37:25 It's enclosing S 16:37:27 +ul (asiekierka)a(S)*^ 16:37:27 asiekierka 16:37:30 yay 16:37:39 thutubot needs better error correction really 16:37:50 It should do what bfbot does 16:37:53 fungot* 16:37:53 asiekierka: good lord. this is ' encapsulation' reads: ' lists extensions that are required at runtime? 16:38:04 ww-w..w.w.WTF? 16:38:33 also, going off in 15 minutes for MegaMan NT Warrior Axess Episode 48 i think, maybe 50 16:38:46 but Underload is awesome 16:39:02 I think i may do a input command, just for the sake of making an Underload bot 16:39:03 I'll just put a step count on it, probably 16:39:18 yes, the problem with Underload input is that there's no really good way to do it 16:39:39 is there a way to calculate stuff 16:40:02 Actually, i wanted to feed input through the stack 16:40:14 asiekierka: calculation's normally done with Church numerals 16:40:15 and run Underload code in an infinitife loop 16:40:22 what's church numerals 16:40:25 and infinilooping is easy 16:40:41 asiekierka: in Underload, the church numeral for 8 (say) is code that replaces the top of the stack with 8 concatenated copies 16:40:46 so (:::::::*******) 16:40:53 oh 16:41:10 So 8 in church numerals, if we use x for it, is xxxxxxxxx 16:41:16 0 in churchnumerals is x 16:41:19 2 is xxx 16:41:20 ehird: hmm...zzo38 coming to conclusions via flawed premises on his blog... well, that's nothing new <<< links. 16:41:33 42 is xxxx...(35 more)...xxx 16:41:35 asiekierka: no, 8 when executed with x on the top of the stack produces xxxxxxxx 16:41:42 but the code for 8 looks different 16:41:46 and there's more than one way to write it 16:41:53 oklocod: I was talking about http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/chrono/zzo38/1216426880, this quote: 16:41:54 [[Homosexual marriage: It just doesn't work. It makes no sense. Marriage involves a man and a woman because that is the way it has to be, that is how the cycle of life works. Two men could live together if you want to but don't be marriage! Two men or two women can't have children. Even if they could (hypothecially), two women would have all girl children, and two men would have half boys, quarter girls, and quarter I-don't-know. Calculate it yourself if you d 16:41:54 ]] 16:41:54 the shortest I know is :*:*:* 16:41:57 that got cut off, didn't it 16:42:04 yeah 16:42:04 ehird: yes 16:42:08 where 16:42:08 :* = square root! :D 16:42:14 ais523: where 16:42:14 i think 16:42:28 Calculate it yourself if you d 16:42:33 on't believe me!]] 16:42:36 ehird: he's just stating opinions 16:42:48 oklocod: yes, but he tries to back up the opinion with totally flawed logic 16:42:53 sure 16:42:57 but that just fails 16:42:59 and then states that that opinion is correct because of the flawed logic 16:43:07 which is what i was talking about 16:43:08 those are clearly axiomatic opinions 16:43:14 well yeah 16:43:14 oklocod: no 16:43:18 the logic demonstrates that homosexual marriage is not a good way to prepare for reproduction 16:43:20 he tried to prove it outside of those opinions as axioms 16:43:22 but that's pretty obvious 16:43:31 ais523: yes 16:43:35 p therefore q 16:43:43 there's a fancy name for that, isn't there, but i don't know what it is 16:43:54 ehird: he tried to, but what i mean is, he doesn't actually succeed in reducing those exact opinions into some other opinion people might have about something else 16:44:00 which is what i mean by an axiomatic opinion 16:44:11 it's just a random opinion 16:44:13 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:44:16 "way it has to be" 16:44:17 lol 16:44:36 i think he thinks marriage = setup for reproduction 16:44:38 So, how do you write church numerals in underload 16:44:39 etc 16:44:47 which i guess you could have as an opinion 16:44:50 Oh well 16:44:52 "calculate it yourself if you don't believe me" :P 16:44:54 i'll just use unary... maybe 16:44:55 :P 16:45:02 asiekierka: 0 is !() 16:45:06 1 is the null string 16:45:08 2 is :* 16:45:10 3 is ::** 16:45:12 4 is :::*** 16:45:14 oh 16:45:14 and so on 16:45:15 * oklocod verifies "woman + woman = girl baby" mathematically 16:45:20 so 2 = the STRING := 16:45:20 multiplication is done with * 16:45:26 1 equals nothing 16:45:31 asiekierka: yes 16:45:32 3 equals the STRING ::** 16:45:37 yes 16:45:37 i see 16:45:38 :) 16:45:42 with 4 there are two ways to write it 16:45:44 :::*** 16:45:46 or :*:* 16:45:49 :) 16:45:50 those both do the same thing 16:45:52 yes 16:45:59 And how do you use the church numerals later on 16:46:00 as in 16:46:05 i have :::*** and ::** in the stack 16:46:06 multiplication and exponentiation are the easiest 16:46:09 and convert to unary 16:46:11 multiply is * 16:46:12 and i want to add them. Is it possible? 16:46:14 I'm getting "My toaster is broken" "What's wrong with it?" "It's broken" from someone I'm trying to help with a linux problem 16:46:14 fffff 16:46:15 exponentiation is ^ 16:46:21 addition is quite short but not as short 16:46:24 let me try to remember 16:46:26 xDD 16:46:38 ((:)~*(*)*)~^ 16:46:39 I think 16:46:42 7 = ::::::******... hmmm 16:46:54 ehird: tell him to order pizza :P 16:47:00 -!- olsner has joined. 16:47:00 +ul (:::***)(x)~^S 16:47:01 xxxx 16:47:14 +ul (:::***)(::**)((:)~*(*)*)~^(x)~^S 16:47:14 :::x*** 16:47:24 that's wrong... 16:47:27 +ul (:::***)(::**)((:)~*(*)*)~^^(x)~^S 16:47:28 xxxxxxx 16:47:34 ah, I missed the final ^ of addition 16:47:38 ((:)~*(*)*)~^^ 16:48:31 This makes it. I'm making an expanded version of Underload the programming language of my new portable! 16:49:01 since it's awesome, awesome and oh god so awesome 16:49:34 7 mins `til megaman time 16:49:39 so lemme hook up my video 16:49:46 VCR* 16:49:55 my VHS recorder 16:52:56 oki 16:52:58 hooked up 16:53:04 so i'm going off for 30 mins 16:53:05 bye 16:53:08 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to as[Rockman]. 17:05:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:06:36 * oerjan really wonders how ais523 avoided objections on that #really-a-cow thing. 17:06:52 oerjan: I buried the intent about 300 lines down in the Registrar's Report 17:06:58 which apparently nobody ever reads 17:07:00 ah 17:07:20 an old trick, i think 17:07:25 yes 17:07:36 it wouldn't have been worth using, were it not for the results 17:07:45 interesting ends justify boring means 17:08:55 i guess this trick works once people have forgotten the last time it was used 17:08:56 -!- as[Rockman] has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:09:05 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:09:33 i cannot remember if there were any countermeasures other than people being more diligent 17:10:05 oerjan: the important bit wasn't that, really 17:10:07 it's what resulted 17:11:05 is the channel logged? otherwise this sounds very evil. you will essentially be forcing some Players to break the rule of being subscribed. 17:11:22 imho 17:11:46 oerjan: it's logged now 17:11:51 two of us set up logging pretty quickly 17:11:57 ok 17:11:59 evil is the whole point, duh 17:12:00 :-P 17:24:12 afk for most of the rest of the evening 17:24:25 ok bye AnMaster 17:25:51 -!- slereah has joined. 17:25:52 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:26:31 -!- as[Rockman] has joined. 17:26:32 hi 17:26:33 i'm back 17:26:43 -!- as[Rockman] has changed nick to asiekierka. 17:26:45 how was megarock? 17:26:53 megaman nt warrior axess you mean 17:26:54 Good 17:26:57 Episode 49/51 17:27:05 so i have eps 47, 48, 49 17:27:06 all in polish 17:27:09 Now 50 and 51 17:28:11 yay 17:28:14 ah, the final battle 17:28:17 yes 17:28:19 wait 17:28:23 are you a megaman nt warrior fan? 17:28:33 :D 17:28:49 no i just knew "megaman" would end in a battle. 17:29:00 because... well, it has "mega" in it 17:29:10 yes 17:29:12 and nothing's more manly than a good battle 17:29:17 good battle, yeah 17:29:22 51 is the final battle 17:29:29 while 50 is the prelude, introduction to it 17:29:29 yarrrrr 17:29:37 i saw both in japanese 17:29:42 and the 51's finale in english 17:29:42 :P 17:29:55 do you know japanese? 17:30:08 nope 17:30:22 so i just looked at them 17:30:25 pure awesomeness 17:30:48 :) 17:30:51 :) 17:30:53 well, ima go read -> 17:31:00 read what 17:33:06 algorithm design 17:33:13 a book 17:33:15 or an ebook 17:33:18 or an internet resource 17:33:31 chapter 10.3: coloring a set of circular arcs 17:33:34 book 17:33:39 oh 17:34:03 76.80 euros, and i managed to destroy it by soaking it in water for about a day like half a week after buying it 17:34:05 \o/ 17:34:22 woah 17:34:42 o_O 17:34:52 76 euros is like a third of the money i have for food monthly, so it was kinda comical :P 17:35:22 it's comical - UNTIL YOU STARVE TO DEATH 17:35:27 then it's _really_ comical 17:36:07 mind you i didn't destroy it entirely, books that cost 76 euros tend to be quite good quality (not in content necessarily, but the actual books rock!) 17:36:28 the ink stayed on perfectly, on all pages 17:36:30 oklocod: so why did you soak it in water for a day? 17:36:33 it's just a bit wrinkly 17:37:05 i moved out, and had it in a box; when doing my dishes, i fell this milk can full of water 17:37:21 and didn't realize the water had dropped all over my books 17:37:24 until the next day 17:37:41 *felled, although i guess "fell" isn't used much 17:37:48 you fell a milk call full of water? :P 17:37:59 "toppled", perhaps 17:38:03 dropped. 17:38:06 yeah that sounds nicer 17:38:18 psygnisfive: isn't dropping only if it... drops? 17:38:24 i can give you precise reasons why you can't say tht you fell something :) 17:38:34 well, falling and dropping are almost identical 17:38:52 the only difference is the notion of agency involved. 17:39:01 or rather, the notion of causation 17:39:07 well, not quite 17:39:12 yes quite. 17:39:14 the subject of falling is the object of dropping 17:39:16 hmm 17:39:18 yes ais 17:39:19 this is true 17:39:20 so they're gramattically different 17:39:25 i haven't talked about falling 17:39:26 *grammatically 17:39:29 i've talked about felling 17:39:29 but subject and object are not semantic differences 17:39:40 ^repeat ergative 17:39:40 ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ... 17:39:41 I will now go and write Underload programs. Is there a language similar to underload? 17:39:42 hmm... no 17:39:42 felling is not an english word. 17:39:47 but hey can be if you put them into a sentence 17:39:48 it isn't? 17:39:53 except in the context of cutting down a tree. 17:39:56 *they 17:39:58 you can fell a tree, meaning cut it down 17:40:04 psygnisfive: yes, that exact context 17:40:07 but other than that, "fell" is only the past tense of fall. 17:40:12 asiekierka: Joy is the most similar I know out of non-esolangs 17:40:14 so you cut down a can of water? :P 17:40:21 not most, but syntax-similar 17:40:25 psygnisfive: yes, quite 17:40:31 :P 17:40:32 hit it with my hand :) 17:40:40 yes but you didnt CUT IT DOWN 17:40:42 thats the point 17:40:47 asiekierka: well, it's a concatenative lang, so other concatenative langs can be somewhat similar 17:40:48 hitting something with your hand 17:40:50 and causing it to fall 17:40:58 I may do an esolang... maybe. Should i? 17:40:59 is not "felling" 17:41:02 but most of them don't go around putting code on the stack and using combinators, like Underload and Joy do 17:41:13 really what you did is knock over a can of water 17:41:17 or knock it off a counter 17:41:18 or something 17:41:27 causing it to fall onto your books 17:41:36 psygnisfive: did i mention i had an axe and the can was so old it was rooted to the ground with mold? 17:41:47 lol 17:41:54 was it growing leaves too? :P 17:42:06 but really i don't need this lecture, i do know fell wasn't the correct term. 17:42:09 oklocod: this sounds like the box of rotten apples on a string esolang 17:42:17 ;) 17:42:21 <3u oklocod 17:42:23 it's just i tend to forget basic vocabulary when i'm reading extensively. 17:42:24 and now 17:42:28 gentlemen 17:42:29 i must be off 17:42:30 in the language i'm reading in 17:42:34 for my linguistics club meeting 17:42:37 have funs 17:42:42 it was one fell swoop, anyhow 17:42:44 oh i will 17:42:46 is this common btw? 17:42:53 is what common? 17:43:03 i mean, you read a book, memorize the content, and forget how to say "hello" 17:43:16 for a while, that is 17:43:31 uh.. no? but problems with participant roles is one of the most common things in language acquisition 17:43:42 i didn't fail at that 17:43:43 oklocod: no it's a sign of alzheimer's 17:43:49 :P 17:43:51 i didn't talk about falling, that was a typo 17:44:05 i failed at not remembering the correct term for making an object fall over 17:44:09 well 17:44:18 i succeeded in not remembering that, but you know what i mean. 17:44:48 oerjan: right. 17:45:13 I think i must add an input command to Underload 17:45:39 another interesting fact: often, when listening to people, i have to ask them to repeat what they just said because i simply blacked out for a second, and missed the whole sentence 17:45:44 well 17:45:52 @ - input a string and put it at the top of the stack 17:46:05 oklocod: not very common on irc, i assume 17:46:18 asiekierka: the problem is that you can't manipulate individual characters within a string 17:46:27 blacked out is another bad term, more like got an acute thought burst, and missed all IO during the last 5 seconds. 17:46:28 the only way to make the program flow depend on the contents of a string is to eval it with ^ 17:46:38 I see 17:46:42 and why is that a problem 17:47:12 oerjan: indeed not. also irc may be one of the main reasons for both of these problems. 17:47:36 hmm? 17:47:56 i often google finnish phrases i've known since i was a child just to make sure i haven't just invented them myself :P 17:48:04 asiekierka: you cannot analyze strings, so you cannot e.g. write a rot13 program 17:48:06 this leads to paranoia ofc 17:48:20 There should be a command 17:48:30 noooo 17:48:32 if it's a random string, all you can do is print it out again, possibly several times 17:48:44 $ - Cut the string in the chars separately 17:48:45 as in 17:48:50 (asie)$ 17:48:52 outputs strings: 17:48:54 a, s, i, e 17:49:01 there should never be a command that makes technically existing, but practically nonexistant, functionality easier :P 17:49:17 asiekierka: That is inelegant 17:49:30 oklocod: this is not that kind. this is technically non-existing, so that's fine 17:49:33 You have to realise that if you will stamp things onto a language you have to be careful about it 17:49:35 and fit in with the language 17:49:54 oerjan: well it's technically existing if you have some other representation of a string on the stack 17:50:16 Still, you can't add to the chars 17:50:19 so it's kind of a problem 17:50:22 it's true you cannot splice strings, but that's really the whole beauty of underload. 17:50:25 you can't compare them, either 17:50:49 shall i compare thee to (a summer's day) 17:50:59 no 17:51:04 compare (abcde) to (abcdf) 17:51:07 :) 17:52:07 no way to create unmatched parentheses is a bit cool 17:52:10 well you could just have pop :: (abc..yz) -> a (bc..yz) or something 17:52:23 a bit cool? :P 17:52:28 yeah it's kinda cool! 17:53:19 afk for quite a while (probably hours), anyway 17:53:31 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:53:33 bye 17:54:08 where's thutubot :( 17:54:16 on ais523's connection 17:54:19 which he just disconnected from 17:54:29 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:54:35 oh 17:54:45 don't mess with my thutu 17:54:56 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:59:44 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Evil - the e command is an AAAAAAAAAAAAUGH 18:01:47 why 18:02:05 76543210->64725031!? 18:03:43 um the spec says -> 57361402 18:03:58 asiekierka: bit order. 18:04:35 ...wtf, esolangs wiki is wrong 18:04:35 ehird: i know, but why such random order 18:04:51 -!- slereah has joined. 18:04:55 asiekierka: Why not 18:04:56 . 18:05:00 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:05:02 because it's *evil* 18:05:07 sheesh 18:05:16 aeeeaeeew uueeaw aaaaaaaw w aaaw 18:05:16 zaeeeeew 18:05:17 uew ueeaeuew aaaw ueeuew eeaw 18:05:17 uueueuw 18:05:17 aeaw 18:05:21 ^ hello world 18:05:23 short version 18:05:36 http://web.archive.org/web/20070906110701/www1.pacific.edu/~twrensch/evil/pure_evil.pict Come on, this is just the java logo... 18:09:12 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:10:07 do you know any free BMP to GIF converter 18:10:09 or GIF animator 18:12:52 no 18:13:36 except ms gif animator, right, right 18:19:37 ais523: No, there's no official way of removing fungot command. 18:19:38 fizzie: makes smaller code than this version :) 18:19:50 ais523: I can remove rows from the saved state-file, though. 18:20:13 fizzie: Please ban CO2Bot from fungot. 18:20:13 ehird: ( i.e. 3m) as a way to do it 18:20:30 (Justification: Latter part of http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.10.07.) 18:20:31 ehird: I can do that, but it probably won't help much. 18:20:40 fizzie: I guess so. CO3Bot! 18:20:51 I think I'll ban that hostname. 18:20:57 That is marginally more work to evade. 18:21:08 fizzie: i'd go for hostname -or- ident... 18:21:13 dynamic ips and such 18:21:54 I should probably add some sort of list that can be easily manipulated. 18:21:55 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:22:11 fizzie: Perhaps just stop people using it more than 5 times in a row. 18:22:14 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:22:17 (And don't tell CO2Games how to get around that...) 18:22:26 heh 18:22:27 What about a GIF optimizer 18:22:34 I think we already talked about ^echo optbot when he was around. 18:22:34 fizzie: I'm workin' on it ... not good at specs X_X 18:22:36 uh oh, it's CO2Games 18:23:03 let's ban him from adding commands only 18:23:19 CO2Games: I don't suppose you'd get bored of massively spammy fungottery any time soon? 18:23:19 fizzie: the only sort of 18:23:38 -!- ap0 has joined. 18:23:50 fungot: Stop encouraging him. 18:23:51 fizzie: and a 2-d language, given a for-each. 18:24:25 I'm already writing a module for my bot 18:24:34 -!- CO2Bot has joined. 18:24:45 CO2Games: Please stop spamming #esoteric. 18:24:46 Thanks 18:25:00 CN0D]h_lWn[Tk\^]OVSaKdY^GMUWCWJJS 18:25:05 you too. 18:25:16 lol 18:25:28 wdji*)(Xkfec RSTddOYXdIK][EYLDVT?MMQ;OB>7GE>BG 18:25:44 polish is darn difficult to read, i say 18:25:44 CO2Games: "lol" is not a response you can use to ignore me and keep spamming. 18:26:06 CO2Games: So will you please not spam like you did yesterday? 18:26:31 fine 18:26:35 thanks. 18:29:27 oerjan: it's not polish 18:30:02 y`w\jjYfgi[TWb$XQ\S`K^ZJU 18:30:14 asiekierka: No... it's line noise 18:30:38 ehird: no... it's encoded 18:30:39 *whoosh* 18:31:09 asiekierka: Could you talk in non-encoded text? 18:31:29 ^te2 y`w\jjYfgi[TWb$XQ\S`K^ZJU 18:31:30 yay_no_more_co2games_spam 18:31:34 right 18:31:39 ehird: it's secret messag--- oh well, oerjan did it 18:31:43 he discovered me 18:31:45 :( 18:31:49 ^show te2 18:31:50 >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[+>]<[<]>] 18:31:52 Now i must think of another encryption 18:31:57 *DING* 18:31:59 totallyevil 18:32:12 bot.say ^totallyevil This is a mesage 18:32:13 ^totallyevil This is a mesage 18:32:13 Tikv$ny'i)wpnut 18:32:21 bot.say ^totallyevil This is a message 18:32:22 ^totallyevil This is a message 18:32:22 Tikv$ny'i)wpovu 18:32:35 ^def supertotalencryption bf ,[.+-+-+-[-]++++--+<><+++>---<--->+++,] 18:32:36 Defined. 18:32:41 ^supertotalencryption yayz 18:32:42 yayz 18:32:45 lol 18:32:56 +- would always be optimized out 18:33:03 ^show supertotalencryption 18:33:03 ,[.+-+-+-[-]+4-2+<><+3>-3<-3>+3,] 18:33:05 Uh 18:33:05 ok 18:33:09 but well 18:33:10 it was NOT 18:33:14 ^show supertotalencryption 18:33:14 ,[.+-+-+-[-]+4-2+<><+3>-3<-3>+3,] 18:33:15 see the code? 18:33:18 No I mean you should optimize it out 18:33:23 I should not 18:33:36 why? it looks like its there for no reason 18:33:54 You are right :) 18:34:08 ^show badrot13 18:34:09 >,[>,]<[<]>[+13.[+]>] 18:34:13 ^show 18:34:13 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc aaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul dick repeat def rot128 evil unevil totallyevil suparevil rot255 totallyevilenc say te2 supertotalencryption 18:34:20 ^show trulyawfulrot13 18:34:20 ,[.+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-,] 18:34:29 It was ,[.+,] before 18:34:33 but i tinkered with it 18:34:33 bot.say ^suparevil This is crap 18:34:34 ^suparevil This is crap 18:34:35 Tilz/bq`o 18:34:39 Ok 18:34:45 bot.say ^evil This is crap 18:34:45 so i'll make suparevilenc now 18:34:46 ^evil This is crap 18:34:46 Uijt!jt!dsbq 18:35:00 ^evil hio 18:35:12 i did it 18:35:16 ^suparevilenc CO2Games 18:35:17 CN/@RN& 18:35:29 bot.say ^totallyevil CO2Games 18:35:29 ^totallyevil CO2Games 18:35:29 CP4Jerkz 18:35:33 ^suparevil CN/@RN& 18:35:33 CO2Games 18:35:36 hahaha 18:35:46 there we go 18:35:54 Now lemme make my encodsure 18:36:16 Gotta finish up the code for my drainfuck module 18:36:47 ^aenc1 CO2Games 18:36:47 PBH1n`td 18:36:49 yayz 18:37:02 here we go with my encryption #1 :) 18:37:08 It's pretty easy but pretty hard 18:37:20 heh 18:37:23 ^adec1 PBH1n`td 18:37:24 AQ0I_ocu 18:37:29 Wait a minute 18:37:34 this this is NOT REVERSIBLE!? 18:37:35 heheh 18:37:37 or not that easily 18:37:43 no it's reversible 18:37:51 yes, i know 18:37:54 just not rot13-like 18:37:57 ^aenc1 PBH1n`td 18:37:57 CO2Games 18:38:00 You mean 18:38:03 just rot13-like 18:38:04 :P 18:38:14 Mmm nope 18:38:25 Now on Aenc2 18:38:27 rot13 decrypts with the encryptor 18:38:30 this too 18:38:37 ^aenc1 CO2Games 18:38:38 PBH1n`td 18:38:40 no you used enc and dec 18:38:43 ^aenc1 PBH1n`td 18:38:43 CO2Games 18:38:46 Uh, i did NOT 18:38:46 <_< 18:38:47 wtf 18:38:49 as you can see 18:38:54 :) 18:39:04 Now on to aenc2! 18:39:09 heh 18:41:03 Here you go with a not-so-easy-to-reverse algorithm. Your eyes will blow at the crappiness of it 18:41:05 but who cares 18:41:08 ^show aenc2 18:41:08 ,[>,>,>,.<2.>.<2.>+.>+.>+.<3,] 18:41:14 ^aenc2 CO2Games 18:41:14 GO2CP3Hsmeanft 18:41:17 Haha 18:41:29 Actually, the original one is planted here 18:41:39 GO2C....smea... 18:41:44 haha 18:41:48 and the other 4 is gibberish 18:42:32 ^adec2 GO2CP3Hsmeanft 18:42:33 CO2Gneam 18:42:37 Uh 18:42:38 something failed 18:42:45 ^adec2 GO2CP3Hsmeanft 18:42:45 CO2Games 18:42:48 Now it works 18:42:50 ^show aenc2 18:42:51 ,[>,>,>,.<2.>.<2.>+.>+.>+.<3,] 18:42:52 ^show adec2 18:42:53 ,[>,>,>,.<2.>.<2.,,,,] 18:42:57 What a difference :P 18:46:38 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:46:38 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:47:23 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:47:44 fizzie: let's ponder on the irony of a huge amount of botmessing after telling people off for it 18:57:06 -!- moozilla has joined. 18:57:45 bot.modules 18:57:46 Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALKTO, TALK. 18:58:01 bot.modules 18:58:01 Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALKTO, TALK, DRAINFUCK. 18:58:52 bot.drainfuck +[] 18:58:58 bot.bf +[] 18:59:00 bot.df +[] 18:59:03 wait 18:59:04 what? 18:59:07 bot.modules 18:59:07 Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALKTO, TALK, DRAINFUCK. 18:59:10 bot.talk 18:59:13 bot.talk as 18:59:17 bot.df.program loop +[] 18:59:22 bot.df.run loop 18:59:23 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:59:25 <_< 18:59:27 uhh 18:59:27 hey 18:59:29 whoops? 18:59:31 you did it on PURPOSE 18:59:34 right 18:59:40 did what 18:59:46 quit co2bot 18:59:50 no 18:59:52 it crashed 19:00:16 wtf 19:00:43 -!- CO2Bot has joined. 19:00:51 <_< 19:00:53 ok 19:00:54 uhh 19:00:58 bot.modules 19:00:58 Loaded modules are: CHAN. 19:01:06 bot.say hi 19:01:07 hi 19:01:20 bot.notice This is really annoying 19:01:28 :P 19:01:56 bot.modules 19:01:58 Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALK. 19:01:59 bot.modules 19:01:59 Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALK. 19:02:00 bot.modules 19:02:00 Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALK. 19:02:03 bot.say hi 19:02:03 heh 19:02:03 hi 19:02:34 bot.invite #esoteric-blah 19:02:38 bot.modules 19:02:38 Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALK. 19:02:44 seems the drainfuck module is broken 19:02:46 In what language is co2bot written 19:02:49 php 19:02:54 what tool did you use 19:02:57 notepad 19:03:04 ooh 19:03:05 i seee 19:03:10 It's not that hard 19:04:04 bot.modules 19:04:05 Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALK, GENERICREPLY. 19:04:25 bot.genericreply hi 19:04:30 bot.reply hi 19:04:30 ... 19:04:32 uh 19:04:39 What is genericreply forenericreply 19:04:40 Heh 19:04:46 CO2Bot: do you hate your father 19:04:49 AAUGH 19:04:50 what? 19:04:53 it doesn't work 19:04:57 Yeah it does 19:04:58 i want to ask your bot a question 19:05:03 so it means 19:05:06 CO2Bot hates you 19:05:06 it doesn't have ai 19:05:12 it just has commands 19:05:17 bot.kill CO2Games 19:05:25 bot.quit 19:05:29 nnnnNNNNGH 19:05:30 bot.smack asiekierka 19:05:30 CO2Games beat the shit out of asiekierka with a large tuna... 19:05:46 bot.smack CO2Games 19:05:47 asiekierka beat the shit out of CO2Games with a large tuna... 19:05:48 bot.smack CO2Games 19:05:48 bot.smack asiekierka, again, 19:05:48 asiekierka beat the shit out of CO2Games with a large tuna... 19:05:48 CO2Games beat the shit out of asiekierka, again, with a large tuna... 19:05:49 bot.smack CO2Games 19:05:49 asiekierka beat the shit out of CO2Games with a large tuna... 19:05:55 bot.smack asiekierka, again, 19:05:56 CO2Games beat the shit out of asiekierka, again, with a large tuna... 19:06:00 bot.smack CO2Games, over and over, 19:06:01 asiekierka beat the shit out of CO2Games, over and over, with a large tuna... 19:06:14 bot.smack CO2Games forever 19:06:14 asiekierka beat the shit out of CO2Games forever with a large tuna... 19:06:31 bot.smack.ext asiekierka dagger stabbed 19:06:31 CO2Games stabbed asiekierka with a dagger... 19:07:03 bot.smack.ext CO2Games Wii stabs 19:07:04 asiekierka stabs CO2Games with a Wii... 19:07:22 orly 19:07:33 bot.smack.ext spam banathon stops 19:07:34 asiekierka stops spam with a banathon... 19:07:42 lol 19:07:48 brb 19:08:00 bot.smack.ext CO2Games weight pwns 19:08:00 asiekierka pwns CO2Games with a weight... 19:10:20 clearly someone was lying slightly before 19:11:01 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:11:31 -!- asiekierka has joined. 19:11:42 bot.modules 19:11:43 Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALK, GENERICREPLY, SMACK, TALKTO. 19:11:52 bot.talkto CO2Games hi 19:12:03 ugh 19:12:16 you have not been blah blah to get yadda yadda to blah yadda 19:19:43 bot.modules 19:19:43 Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALK, GENERICREPLY, SMACK, TALKTO. 19:27:07 back 19:27:37 heh 19:27:38 bot.modules 19:27:39 Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALK, GENERICREPLY, SMACK, TALKTO. 19:28:01 CHAN TALK DESU 19:28:30 bot.chan.talk desu 19:28:36 bot.talk chan talk desu 19:28:42 bot.say desu 19:28:42 desu 19:28:50 -!- oerjan has quit ("And I invented sarcastic comments, no lie!"). 19:28:55 rol 19:28:57 rofl 19:31:04 bot.say Hello world 19:31:05 Hello world 19:31:14 bot.say ñ 19:31:15 ñ 19:32:20 is that the language of gods? 19:32:33 bot.say ^aenc1 pa/sbr!xbfcqh``dthx^bg`s`hpkfu 19:32:34 ^aenc1 pa/sbr!xbfcqh``dthx^bg`s`hpkfu 19:32:34 bot.say garbage_is_what_i_love 19:32:34 garbage_is_what_i_love 19:32:38 lulz 19:33:06 <_< 19:34:14 bot.df.program loop ,{.} 19:34:22 bot.df.run loop 19:34:22 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:34:24 shit 19:34:37 augh 19:34:39 get it back 19:34:41 get it back 19:35:06 -!- CO2Bot has joined. 19:35:11 bot.modules 19:35:11 Loaded modules are: CHAN. 19:35:25 (what module includes bot.say?) 19:35:28 bot.modules 19:35:28 Loaded modules are: CHAN. 19:35:30 TALK 19:35:34 (so load it! 19:35:35 ) 19:35:37 ok 19:35:45 bot.modules 19:35:45 Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALK. 19:36:03 bot.say ^rot13 obg.fnl ^nqrp2 .bgoch/ nlfom!yryuszzbbbb 19:36:03 ^rot13 obg.fnl ^nqrp2 .bgoch/ nlfom!yryuszzbbbb 19:36:05 bot.say ^adec2 .otbpu/ aysbz!lelhfmmoooo 19:36:05 ^adec2 .otbpu/ aysbz!lelhfmmoooo 19:36:06 bot.say helloooo 19:36:06 helloooo 19:36:09 hahaha 19:36:09 lol 19:36:11 what a tree 19:36:24 Sad we don't have thutubot to join our part 19:36:24 y 19:36:37 heh 19:38:14 no wait, sure we have another bot 19:38:15 bot.say ^rot13 obg.fnl ^nqrp2 .bgoch/ nlfom!ocgbdhp.g.bg 19:38:15 ^rot13 obg.fnl ^nqrp2 .bgoch/ nlfom!ocgbdhp.g.bg 19:38:16 bot.say ^adec2 .otbpu/ aysbz!bptoquc.t.ot 19:38:17 ^adec2 .otbpu/ aysbz!bptoquc.t.ot 19:38:17 bot.say optbot.. 19:38:17 optbot.. 19:38:18 fungot: here's the sourcecode: 19:38:18 CO2Bot: Your parser sucks. 19:38:18 optbot: my ' java' i like to start with 19:38:19 fungot: Hey i got a question about funge if anyones interested in answering: what happens if you 'g' from a blank cell? or if you 'p' a non-funge command to a cell and the pc passes over it? 19:38:19 optbot: but i was trying to make it down 19:38:20 fungot: - Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols' test 19:38:20 optbot: seems like vim is quite helpful 19:38:21 fungot: why do you have those discussions at 05-06am? 19:38:21 optbot: we are? 19:38:22 fungot: i need a bit of antialiasing, because i want them to grow in such a way that the growth can never be seen 19:38:25 oops... 19:38:35 i didn't think it'll have this sort of effect 19:38:38 i thought it'll be only one time 19:38:43 but didn't not---Who stopped it? 19:39:20 -!- asiekierka has quit. 19:39:35 -!- asiekierka has joined. 19:42:19 hello? 19:42:21 fungot? 19:42:21 asiekierka: so indenting that second line is a comment, unless preceded by 19:42:24 optbot? 19:42:24 asiekierka: debug my prolog lisp :( 19:43:17 NO 19:43:20 never, optbot 19:43:20 asiekierka: That is if you want to pursue my leads further. 19:43:21 bye 19:43:28 -!- Mony has quit ("Ne regrettons pas le passé, ne nous préoccupons pas de l'avenir : le sage vit dans le présent."). 19:43:41 \/ 19:43:42 \/ 19:43:44 \/ 19:43:45 \/ 19:43:46 \/ 19:43:47 \/ 19:43:49 \/ 19:43:49 \/ 19:43:51 \/ 19:43:52 \/ 19:43:53 \/ 19:44:38 hi ais523 19:45:02 asiekierka: CO2Games: Hmm. Was that an hour of botspam JUST FOLLOWING me telling you both off for it? 19:45:03 sigh 19:45:18 hi ehird 19:45:20 and wb me 19:45:26 * ais523 wonders why eir client strips one leading space from a line, but doesn't strip any leading space from a line if it starts with two spaces 19:47:35 what? 19:47:35 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:48:07 Not my fault 19:48:12 optbot: f(x) = 4(x - 5)^2 + 4 19:48:25 optbot, are you alright? 19:48:39 ehird: is optbot alright? 19:48:44 hehhe 19:48:46 hmm... fungot's alright, presumably 19:48:46 ais523: in fact i have been ridiculed due to my modern bias 19:49:27 GENTLEMEN 19:50:08 :o 19:50:21 i had some ideas about how to parse transformations 19:50:39 fungot: f(x) = 4(x - 5)^2 + 4 19:50:39 KingOfKarlsruhe: i should write those lecture diary things for the first 19:51:45 KingOfKarlsruhe: actually, that's not how you do itTOPIC #esoteric :the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | They sound so.... British. 19:52:48 ais523: ok 19:52:50 ais523: you might explain what evaluates to true and what doesn't 19:53:01 ah, optbot's just lagging 19:53:01 ais523: it was cool. Because it was Lisp with syntax. 19:53:03 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:53:37 -!- CO2Bot has joined. 19:54:09 bot.df.program loop +[] 19:54:14 bot.df.run loop hello 19:54:15 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:54:22 -!- asiekierka has joined. 19:58:05 http://paste.pocoo.org/show/87437/ 19:58:06 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:00:47 -!- CO2Bot has joined. 20:00:50 bot.modules 20:00:50 Loaded modules are: CHAN, DRAINFUCK. 20:01:02 bot.df.list 20:01:02 Loaded modules are: . 20:01:05 err 20:01:28 bot.df.program loop +[] 20:01:30 -!- thutubot has joined. 20:02:30 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:02:59 -!- CO2Bot has joined. 20:03:02 bot.modules 20:03:02 Loaded modules are: CHAN, DRAINFUCK. 20:03:05 bot.df.list 20:03:05 Drainfuck programs are: . 20:03:20 +ul (^echochohoo optbot)S 20:03:20 ^echochohoo optbot 20:03:21 optbotptbottbotbotott 20:03:21 ais523: this should produce a 1 but I get an "M" 20:03:21 thutubot: '@_T1 = 2 20:03:21 fungot: it's (mostly) sanely written, and I *am* available, so. . . 20:03:22 optbot: that sounds like the sort of message involving parameters.' 20:03:22 fungot: module constructor run for each fingerprint 20:03:23 optbot: scheme 48 seems to prefer to use interfaces that get exercised by lots of people 20:03:23 fungot: yeah 20:03:24 optbot: forcer says: what? you meant or what? 20:03:24 fungot: if (sender != string(argv[2])) continue; 20:03:28 <_< 20:03:55 bot.df.program loop +[] 20:04:12 bot.df.program loop +[] 20:05:35 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:07:09 -!- CO2Bot has joined. 20:07:39 bot.df.list 20:07:39 Drainfuck programs are: . 20:07:42 WTF 20:07:54 <_< 20:08:09 bot.df.program loop +[] 20:08:14 test 20:08:24 bot.df.run loop hi 20:08:25 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:08:27 OMG 20:09:33 -!- CO2Bot has joined. 20:09:58 bot.program cat ,[.,] 20:10:03 bot.df.program cat ,[.,] 20:10:14 bot.df.run can hello sir 20:10:14 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:11:45 -!- CO2Bot has joined. 20:12:01 bot.program cat ,[.,] 20:12:08 bot.df.program cat ,[.,] 20:12:20 bot.df.list 20:12:21 Drainfuck programs are: ,[.,]. 20:12:27 err...oops 20:12:49 bot.df.run cat Hello, world! 20:12:50 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:20:37 CO2Games: stop this shit. 20:22:41 what shit 20:23:07 psygnisfive: he was doing it all last night 20:23:21 CO2Bot is my bot 20:23:39 I'm debugging the drainfuck module 20:23:41 CO2Games: well, #esoteric-blah exists for a reason 20:23:45 or you could test in your own channel 20:23:49 hmm ok 20:23:49 I tested thutubot on my own /server/ 20:23:54 to avoid bothering Freenode 20:24:21 he needs to fucking stop. 20:24:32 psygnisfive: have you seen last nights logs 20:24:38 no and i dont want to 20:24:40 o 20:24:49 psygnisfive: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.10.07 20:24:52 skip to 21:30:14 --- join: CO2Games (n=CO2Games@75-163-236-8.clsp.qwest.net) joined #esoteric 20:24:54 no dude 20:24:54 and read 20:24:54 no 20:24:55 and kill yourself 20:25:06 so oklocod/anmaster 20:25:19 i had some ideas on how we could parse a transformation language with scope indicators and so on 20:25:55 oklocod: oko 20:26:08 okoko! 20:26:37 okokokokokoko 20:26:39 okokokokokokokokokokokoko 20:26:40 okokoko 20:26:42 okokokokokokokokoko 20:26:45 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 20:26:47 psygnisfive: coolness 20:26:58 yeah 20:27:00 what i figure is 20:27:10 brb 20:27:17 suppose you have some, call it X 20:27:24 okay i suppose. 20:27:29 that needs to be interpreted as originating in some position, we'll mark it with t 20:27:36 so that it looks like so: 20:27:41 -!- CO2Games has quit ("And I invented doors, no joke!"). 20:27:41 X...t... 20:27:46 where ... is 'other stuff' 20:28:03 the grammar will have what you might call "functional" positions 20:28:28 that is, you have a CFg rule like, say, ScopeIndication -> Indicator SomethingElse 20:28:56 so that the parser parses as a ScopeIndication, and then, as its going through SomethingElse 20:29:12 well i don't entirely follow you, which may be a bad sign after 5 lines of explanation. 20:29:13 it finds a spot that /normally/ would have some element, namely X 20:29:21 ok ok 20:29:26 "you have some, call it X" 20:29:30 so lets try this from a different perspective 20:29:30 have some... butter? 20:29:38 like, some value or something? 20:29:41 hmm 20:29:42 suppose you have a disjunction 20:29:47 well k 20:29:47 an or lets say 20:30:07 and you want it to have scope over some specific set of predicates 20:30:08 like say 20:30:35 a(b(c(x))) or d(e(f(x))) 20:30:36 right 20:30:44 but really this could be simplified rather conveniently 20:30:44 as 20:31:17 something like, say 20:31:33 no, sorry, thats a bad example :p 20:31:37 (a.b.c or d.e.f)(x) 20:31:37 uh.. say this instead: 20:31:42 yeah i was gonna say that 20:31:45 +ul (:(0 )*S:(1 )*S:(2 )*S:(3 )*S:(4 )*S:(5 )*S:(6 )*S:(7 )*S:(8 )*S(9 )*S):(0)~^:(1)~^:(2)~^:(3)~^:(4)~^:(5)~^:(6)~^:(7)~^:(8)~^(9)~^ 20:31:45 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 20:31:49 but thats not scope indication as i meant it 20:31:51 but yeah lets say that 20:31:53 +ul (:(0 )*S:(1 )*S:(2 )*S:(3 )*S:(4 )*S:(5 )*S:(6 )*S:(7 )*S:(8 )*S(9 )*S):()~^:(1)~^:(2)~^:(3)~^:(4)~^:(5)~^:(6)~^:(7)~^:(8)~^(9)~^ 20:31:53 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 20:31:59 the or has scope over the whole thing 20:32:06 but its lower in the structure 20:32:13 so we might have a scope indicator like 'either' 20:32:14 yy. 20:32:20 that goes like this 20:32:31 either (a.b.c or d.e.f)(x) 20:32:51 so it's kinda the "\x ->" for the "x" that is the or 20:33:02 sort of 20:33:03 you tell it where to lift from 20:33:06 or consider for instance 20:33:28 a(b(c(x))) or a(b(c(y))) 20:33:34 we could indicate this with 20:33:45 either a(b(c(x or y))) 20:34:12 but the question is how does the scope get pulled out of this 20:34:26 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:34:29 and there are also cases where we might not even leave "or", or similar things, in place like that 20:34:39 so how would we parse this? 20:34:44 well i figure the structure could be like this: 20:35:15 [either [a [b [c [or x y]]]]] 20:35:20 for the nesting 20:35:43 [either P] is a case of ScopeIndication -> Indicator SomethingElse 20:35:51 with Indicator -> 'either' 20:36:03 so once we parse this, and make this recognition 20:36:12 we keep a list of these indicators 20:36:15 a stack, probably 20:36:17 or a queue 20:36:37 and once we find an item that can have scope 20:36:40 such as a disjunction 20:36:54 we associate the scope indicator with that disjunction 20:37:18 either 6=6 and either 5=2 or 2=(5 or 2) 20:37:20 and then we can extract the or from [a [b [c [or x y]]]] 20:37:27 well either makes no sense with and, as a keyword, ofc 20:37:28 leaving [a [b [c T]]] 20:37:32 which is a template 20:37:58 yes 20:38:00 then we replace x/y with [a [b [c T]]] with T replaced by x/y 20:38:31 yeah, mapping tree, nopol's negative list, nondeterministic element 20:39:00 anyway, I've decided that lazy imperative languages make more sense then strict imperative languages in lots of ways 20:39:06 and there should be more of them 20:39:14 it could even work for other quantifiers like all 20:39:21 ais523: elaborate 20:39:30 (N.B. for the benefit of oerjan, I'm arguing for lazy and impure, rather than lazy and pure, here) 20:39:49 oklocod: a lazy function can evaluate its arguments more than once, or not at all 20:39:56 which means that things like if and while can be represented as functions 20:39:58 and what does pure/impure in the context of an imperative language? 20:40:10 oklocod: pure = without side effects, no matter what the paradigm 20:40:11 a(b(c(all X))) == forall x <- X [a(b(c(x)))] 20:40:13 ais523: yes i know what they are 20:40:28 ais523: well imperative + pure sounds a bit weird. 20:40:33 we could pull this out similarly 20:40:36 yes, it defeats the point of being imperative 20:40:40 but imperative + lazy works fine 20:40:44 and we can ofcourse also have different scopes 20:40:52 you just need to make all the commands run at the right itme 20:40:53 *time 20:41:02 which effectively you can do by monad-chaining them together 20:41:22 but you can do all this without first-class functions, if you want to 20:41:32 a( <> b(c(all X))) == a(forall x<-X [b(c(x))]) 20:41:48 it works with sort of second-and-a-bit class functions, sort of a IIa 20:41:57 psygnisfive: yah thaz nice 20:42:11 im still not entirely sure how we could use this shit but 20:42:36 alternatively, consider repetition and crap 20:42:39 especially in forks 20:42:54 or in filters 20:42:58 filters are a good example 20:43:03 PERHAPS DYNAMIC SCOPE FOR THAT! print (true or <> my_cool_function()); function my_cool_function() { return true and false } 20:43:18 x | a(x) or b(x) 20:43:23 could easily be redone as 20:43:29 x | a or b 20:44:01 (a or b) could make a lambda: \x -> a(x) or b(x) 20:44:17 j does taht 20:44:20 when it finds no argument to a 1-argument lambda it looks back for the scope-taking element 20:44:21 doznt it 20:44:24 zdxzd 20:44:32 well, J has forked functions 20:44:37 % for instance is a forked division 20:44:41 but i dont know if it works like that 20:44:45 what are these Forked Functions 20:44:53 % is a forked division 20:44:55 so like.. 20:45:08 a % b == \x -> a(x)/b(x) 20:45:17 i just know function function function means function(arg) `function` function(arg), where arg is the arg of the function in the scope of which we are 20:45:26 in haskell-ish: 20:45:47 fork a f b = \x -> f (a x) (b x) 20:45:56 oh i see. 20:46:13 thazz called a forkor i neva herd 20:46:23 i'm so tired 20:46:24 so fork (sum) (/) (length) 20:46:26 i could eat a cow 20:46:37 might be a definition for avg 20:46:47 in J the avg is defined points-free as 20:46:50 yes that's a pretty avgsome definition 20:47:02 avg := +/ % # 20:47:08 yes 20:47:28 as i said earlier 20:47:47 but also filters on sets 20:47:49 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol. 20:47:52 X | a or b 20:48:04 for X = { x0, x1, ... } 20:48:06 would mean 20:48:13 i need more time, need more of it. 20:48:17 moooooore time 20:48:22 { x | x <- X and (a(x) or b(x)) } 20:48:41 how does it know where to take x from 20:48:42 or even just 20:48:44 a or b X 20:48:52 it takes x from the thing before | ... 20:48:58 i mean 20:48:59 X 20:49:02 ohhh 20:49:04 consider the natural language equivalent 20:49:08 X | a or b 20:49:11 i cannot exactly read. 20:49:16 :p 20:49:56 a or b X would be interesting 20:50:09 "a or b X" is pretty awesome, implicit mapping, weird precedence and or has a lifted scope 20:50:13 yes. 20:50:15 i love it 20:50:18 well not really mapping 20:50:20 more of this 20:50:20 its filtering 20:50:39 and in this case its really i suppose a conversion of two predicates into one 20:50:40 yes, right, for boolean functions that makes more sense 20:51:37 a or b X would mean filter (\x -> a x | b x) X 20:51:51 tho you COULd do maps 20:51:52 like 20:52:03 square each X 20:52:17 which would be map square X 20:52:23 perhaps you could do this programmatically, tell it how to evaluate things that make no sense originally, like applying a (\int -> bool) to a list 20:52:26 but really it could be even more crazy 20:52:36 like square each X and Y 20:52:51 so that, you make kinda generic function definitions, but just with types, and provide rewrite rules 20:52:56 or something like that i dunno 20:53:04 which would be more ({x*x | x<-X}, {y*y | y<-Y}) 20:53:40 (p@(\int -> bool) l@list) ==> filter(p, l) 20:53:51 i'll read what you said, now. 20:55:18 or we could even get away with haskell-like currying but also allow arbitrary numbers of arguments without using lists 20:55:27 like so: 20:55:34 (+) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 20:55:41 would be short for 20:55:43 for functions that return other things than booleans, put (f@(\a -> b) l@list) ==> map(f, l) before the other definition, and you have the mapping case 20:55:59 (+) 1 ((+) 2 ((+) 3 ...)) 20:56:10 that one language of ehird's does that 20:56:16 and we'd know this by pushing (+) to the parse list 20:56:24 oklopol: hm what 20:56:30 implicit foldl 20:56:45 for n-ary functions | n>2 20:56:47 and each time we get to the second argument position of (+) and we instead expect a + ... 20:57:05 therefore when we get a number instead, we just parse it as (+) THEN the number 20:57:06 and so on 20:57:11 until we get to the last number 20:57:18 parse that as (+) 7 ... 20:57:23 and then, when we try to fill in for ... 20:57:32 we find theres nothing left to parse on that line 20:57:40 or in the enclosing () 20:57:44 so we insert 0 20:58:00 how come we insert zero? 20:58:10 well because otherwise its (+) 7 20:58:19 and thats a lambda 20:58:25 cool lambdas 20:58:36 well im assuming haskells autocurrying 20:58:42 anyway, i think my idea was awesome and perfect, do comment on it 20:58:47 ais523: wanna have a crack at determining the TC-ness of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Qq? 20:58:50 we never solved it 20:58:50 im not sure i understand it ;) 20:58:59 ehird: I'll have a look 20:59:09 Also, munge=concatenate, in that 20:59:20 psygnisfive: basically, you can supply rewrite rules for expressions that are typing errors originally 20:59:41 nah, boring. :p 20:59:45 anyway 21:00:04 like, to add be able to add a string to an int, you do "a@int + b@string ==> a + conv2int(b)" 21:00:26 maybe 21:00:27 anyway 21:00:29 how's that more boring than yours, this is at least a new idea :P 21:00:32 i like the idea of weird movement 21:00:36 weeeeeird 21:00:52 weird is great.... or should i say geird? 21:00:52 a programming language with movement would be cool 21:00:54 and awesome to parse 21:00:57 no i shouldn't 21:00:59 that's not english 21:01:16 can you define movement btw 21:01:26 movement is like 21:01:33 where something has to be interpreted as existing in multiple places 21:01:52 e.g. the x in {x | p(x)} is in two places 21:01:58 but if you have just one x 21:01:58 say 21:02:02 x | p 21:02:12 you can pretend that you /started/ with just p(x) 21:02:19 where x is some variable that you're questioning 21:02:26 and therefore because you're questioning it 21:02:34 it has to have scope over p(x) 21:02:43 hence it "raises" to be 21:02:46 x | p(x) 21:03:14 "you can pretend that you /started/ with just p(x)" not sure i understand 21:03:16 and the low one just gets "suppressed" 21:03:19 ok well 21:03:25 consider more this: 21:03:36 how does it know to do p -> p(x)? 21:03:41 pretend for a second that we can paraphrase p(x) as p of x 21:03:42 right 21:03:47 k 21:04:04 * oklopol considers more that 21:04:06 now pretend that if we want to find all x's where p of x is true 21:04:21 we can substitute an alternative word that idicates we're questioning x 21:04:29 call this word what 21:04:40 so now we can say really... p of what 21:04:56 'p of what' means "for what x, p of x" 21:05:32 lolpee 21:05:32 right 21:05:44 Yes. 21:05:45 Indeed. 21:05:59 but in the MEANING, the 'what x' has scope over 'p of x' 21:06:25 like |: x | p of x 21:06:39 so we can /move/ 'what' up to where it has scope 21:06:59 what | p of what 21:07:07 or what | p(what) 21:07:18 so the position of what indicates the scope 21:07:27 so, umm, when we have a predicate over x, like x | p, whereever there is a typing issue where you need a boolean where there is a predicate, you give that predicate x as argument? 21:07:29 but now we have a redundancy, so we just sort of.. drop the second one 21:07:32 what | p 21:07:49 well, it doesnt have to be just that tho keep in mind 21:07:54 so, x | p or q could be x | p(x) or q(x), because the predicates were in place of expected booleans, and needed to be applied 21:08:02 right 21:08:05 x | p or q 21:08:45 wonder if that could be done in my "type mismatch triggered rewriting" system 21:08:56 ehird: kind of like Underload but not really is a good description for that lang 21:09:01 maybe. dunno. 21:09:11 ais523: :) 21:09:14 Underload can't be compiled into it directly, because the return value of 9 is'nt a legal value of 2 21:09:19 *isn't a legal input for 2 21:09:20 somehow an expression should know x somehow encloses 21:09:22 *it 21:10:08 that is something the language needs to offer, i guess 21:10:36 ey? 21:10:39 oh, alternatively 21:10:46 we can do the opposite 21:10:56 instead of x | p or q 21:10:58 we could do 21:11:04 ehird: I don't think it is TC, because of the output of 9 isn't input to 2 issue 21:11:09 p or q x, like i said. 21:11:14 ais523: ? 21:11:16 but, something like "context x: expecting bool: p@(\X -> bool) ==> p(x)" 21:11:17 here the raising is invisible 21:11:19 so you can only use 8 for swaps and such a finite number of times 21:11:24 ehird: the output of 9 is a single integer 21:11:26 context is a keyword for when we are inside x's scope 21:11:29 the scope-acquisition of x is implicit not explicit 21:11:32 thus you can't append stuff inside the integer, so to speak 21:11:36 ais523: No. 21:11:39 expecting is a keyword for what the expression should convert to 21:11:42 The output of 9 is whatever the function returns. 21:11:47 in Underload you can do (blah)a(^)* 21:11:49 oh 21:11:49 no 21:11:52 sorry 21:11:55 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 21:11:55 there doesn't seem to be a Qq equivalent to that 21:12:00 tho we'd probably want to use a special indicator that x needs to be interpreted with different scope 21:12:01 ais523: hmm 21:12:01 like 21:12:04 psygnisfive: yes, that is covered by the rewrite system as well 21:12:09 p or q which x 21:12:19 ais523: BUT 21:12:30 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:12:31 ais523: (0 2 (9 ...) (9 ...)) 21:12:35 tho like i said before 21:12:47 if its filtering a list, p or q X is probably how it should look 21:13:05 lets see 21:13:08 ehird: that's illegal, isn't it? 21:13:10 what other kind of scopal issues are there 21:13:13 the 0 evaulates the 9s to single integers 21:13:18 which aren't legal arguments to the 2 21:13:21 negation could be interesting 21:13:23 ais523: oh, right 21:13:23 ais523: i'm not sure 21:14:15 psygnisfive: well i'd just prefer type mismatch triggered rewriting, and then perhaps having these things in the stdlib :P 21:14:32 neither a(b(c(x or y) == not(a(b(c(x))) or a(b(c(y)))) 21:15:03 ah well the way ive been thinking of it involved recording when things were in places they weren't expected to be in 21:15:08 why not have a nor, it'd be a pretty unique keyword 21:15:14 or operator name, whatever 21:15:22 well you could do a(b(c(x nor y))) sure 21:15:36 psygnisfive: yes, that's what it's about 21:15:51 and that results in a(b(c(x))) nor a(b(c(y))) 21:15:59 you can do implicit filtering, implicit mapping, forking and that scope extension thing with it 21:16:09 what else could we do with it tho 21:16:10 :o 21:16:24 the implicit foldr 21:16:46 you mean, it's not general enough to be interesting? 21:16:57 well it is but i want it to be even wonkier 21:17:01 because right now its not that esoteric 21:17:02 :p 21:17:39 i'm just saying you're only listing special cases of what one could allow for programmers to do themselves given a good construction of TMTR 21:17:54 it seems to me like a pretty generic idea 21:18:01 but i dont see it as being TMTR at all 21:18:05 but, i've been known to love my own inventions 21:18:15 thats the thing 21:18:21 i see it as a completely different system :P 21:18:27 you see it as what then? 21:18:32 a syntax extension? 21:18:43 movement of elements of the syntax 21:18:45 or lack thereof 21:19:23 brb 21:20:41 i don't see a case where tmtr couldn't do just that, because clearly the "movement", which is basically rewriting, happens where the code somehow has type errors (if it didn't, how would you know where to have movement anyway) 21:22:21 i need to sleep now 21:22:27 neeeeed to 21:23:38 ais523: i have tons of new ideas for that 3-sat language, storage is done using boolean variables with probabilities, and you can have predicates 21:23:54 (a probability can store an infinite amount of data of course) 21:24:38 you do all boolean logic using a modified 3-sat, which tries to find the most probable assignment for the variables 21:24:53 oh dear, sounds like my INTERCAL equation solver thing 21:25:05 :) 21:25:05 but in a very different way 21:25:35 i'm not sure how exactly all this works, and flow control is a bit iffy still, because i need to be very careful not to allow a direct form of lambda calculus 21:26:32 often my languages end up reinventing lambdas, if they aren't imperative. and that's quite boring 21:26:38 but, i have high hopes 21:26:53 that's because lambdas are so useful 21:27:09 hmm... would you argue that Unlambda or Underload reinvents the lambda? 21:27:09 have an exam on monday, so i'm kinda busy for a while, hopefully have some time to work on this, and muture next week. 21:27:35 the reasong isn't lambdas are useful. it's that they arise out of anything, because they are trivial beings. 21:27:42 *reason 21:28:08 ais523: not that directly. 21:28:37 but, for instance, the turing completeness proof was a quite trivial compilation from lc 21:28:42 Underlambda will have a preprocessor that preprocesses lambda syntax into Underloady code 21:29:03 also, I wrote a BF-minus-input -> Underload compiler afterwards 21:29:09 so now there are two TC proofs of Underload 21:29:26 for an Interesting Language, i'd argue, the simplest proof should be a construction of a lambda calculus evaluator, and the creation of the input in memory 21:29:39 hmm... not BCT? 21:29:54 cyclic tag was used for both rule 110 and the 2,3 Turing machine 21:30:09 also, I wouldn't try to prove C TC via lambdas 21:30:15 ais523: the point is, you shouldn't be able to make a simple compilation that preserves time complexities 21:30:34 ah, ok 21:30:42 if you can, then you've reduced the language to another, and a there's a significant drop in interestingness 21:31:00 well, I think the 2,3 Turing machine being O(2^2^n) just to simulate cyclic tag is enough of a computational order gap 21:31:05 i'm talking about tarpits of course, a language can be interesting as a programming experience even if it has a trivial compilation to something. 21:31:27 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:31:30 it's just not interesting as a computation model 21:31:32 *al 21:31:53 ais523: :P 21:31:56 sleep! -> 21:32:14 night 21:32:21 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 21:32:27 +ul (optbot!)S 21:32:27 optbot! 21:32:27 ais523: ok lets see if this brainfuck IRC bot works 21:32:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | yes. 21:32:44 heh, what a great concatenation of messages 21:32:58 if only optbot had said "Underload" not "brainfuck" it would have been perfect 21:32:58 ais523: So it IS javascript. 21:33:03 or if it had been written in BF itself 21:39:58 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:41:24 hello 22:00:43 hm? 22:00:49 psygnisfive, you highlighted me when I was away? 22:00:59 a while back 22:01:03 ais523, hi btw 22:01:13 psygnisfive, I was out of town 22:01:18 just regarding ideas for how to parse a language with movement and stuff. 22:01:40 and I'm 100% sure I did set /away 22:01:54 .. /away?? 22:02:04 psygnisfive, you know in /whois 22:02:10 * [ais523] is away (Gone away for now.) 22:02:18 AnMaster: ais523 is back 22:02:18 you use the away command to set it 22:02:28 hm.. doesnt work when i do it 22:02:30 ais523, well not when I did whois just 3 seconds earlier 22:02:31 :P 22:02:31 and yes, I /away before /quitting 22:02:38 ah, there's a weird bug here 22:02:40 psygnisfive, err /away 22:02:43 when I do /back it tells me I'm already back 22:02:47 plain away will remove the away 22:02:51 ah yeah ok 22:02:52 at least in this client 22:02:52 but then secretly unaways me 22:02:55 and on server protocol 22:02:57 and not on this client it won't 22:02:58 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:03:19 * [psygnisfive] is away (foo) 22:03:20 yep 22:03:33 psygnisfive, you seriously mean you didn't know about it? 22:03:42 hm 22:03:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:03:53 nope 22:03:59 tho im not an IRC whore so.. :p 22:04:03 Have ye not read RFC 1459!? 22:04:16 no 22:04:18 (ais: correct me if that is wrong form of old you) 22:04:35 ais523, ^ 22:04:57 -!- slereah has joined. 22:05:01 AnMaster: Hast thou not read RFC 1459 would be more appropriate 22:05:04 as you're only talking to one person 22:05:14 but people only say that nowadays to deliberately sound really old 22:05:22 as it went out of English centuries ago 22:10:59 ah 22:11:06 ais523, well I wanted that 22:11:07 :P 22:17:51 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:19:58 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:20:04 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:20:54 hæfdon þe eall gān gemædde?! 22:22:22 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 22:27:15 -!- CO2Games has joined. 22:27:50 -!- CO2Bot has joined. 22:28:05 bot.df.program me ^+++++++[>++++++++<-]>+^.++.+++++++++++++++++.-----------.++++++.-.[+]++++[>++++++++<-]>.V.V. 22:28:11 bot.df.run me 22:28:11 string :: NULL 22:28:11 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Excess Flood). 22:28:14 <_< 22:29:05 Hast thou not read RFC 1459!? 22:29:15 It wasn't intentional 22:29:27 -!- CO2Bot has joined. 22:30:15 bot.df.program me ^+++++++[>++++++++<-]>+^.++.+++++++++++++++++.-----------.++++++.-.[+]++++[>++++++++<-]>.V.V. 22:30:26 bot.df.run me test 22:30:26 string :: string 22:30:26 :: 65536 Action Limit exceeded! 22:30:30 <_< 22:30:37 CO2Games, STOP. 22:30:38 yeah ok so the loops are broken 22:30:51 -!- CO2Games has left (?). 22:51:42 -!- slereah has joined. 22:51:43 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:54:44 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:55:07 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 23:03:59 i wish co2games would fucking stop or go away 23:04:02 its unacceptable 23:04:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:04:31 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:07:11 ehird, I agree 23:07:18 ehird, I agree 23:07:21 savour the moment 23:07:26 AnMaster: holy fucking shit 23:07:32 anyway, I brought thutubot back here 23:07:33 about co2games 23:07:35 AnMaster: quick, find a technicality to disagree with me on 23:07:41 this CANNOT happen it's a law of physics 23:08:30 ehird, I think CO2Bot should not be here. Since it doesn't seem to add any useful functionality. And CO2Games spam with it 23:08:40 AnMaster: i don't think you understand 23:08:46 you agreeing with me is a logical impossibility 23:08:50 you must reverse it quickly 23:08:56 ehird, well it happened 23:09:03 so there must be a flaw in that logic 23:09:11 (Hm, we're disagreeing about agreeing being a logical impossibility.) 23:09:13 That works, I guess. 23:09:16 +ul (Does Thutubot add useful functionality?)S 23:09:16 Does Thutubot add useful functionality? 23:09:30 heh 23:09:36 ehird, no you are right. It is logically impossible 23:09:44 * oerjan wonders if they get the M cartoon in sweden 23:09:54 oerjan, what cartoon? 23:09:57 AnMaster: i have a better solution - 23:10:07 it's norwegian, by Mads Eriksen 23:10:08 CO2Bot must be modified to ignore commands from CO2Games 23:10:14 then non-spammers can use it! 23:10:22 i don't know if it's known in sweden 23:10:48 oerjan, never heard of it 23:11:14 ehird, sounds good, but I doubt CO2Games will agree to block himself from his own bot 23:11:15 but this reminds me of the story line when M's girlfriend admits she was wrong about something 23:11:21 AnMaster: durr :P 23:11:25 causing a breakdown in the laws of the universe 23:11:34 bot.df.program test ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 23:11:38 bot.df.run test 23:11:39 string :: NULL 23:11:39 23:11:47 M = Mads himself, exaggerated 23:11:53 hmm... well, Drainfuck isn't Brainfuck 23:11:57 but that was pretty bad I think 23:11:58 ais523: CO2Games has terrible trouble implementing brainfuck, you know. 23:12:04 He's talked about his trials and tribulations in here. 23:12:06 bot.df.program test +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 23:12:07 bot.df.run test 23:12:08 string :: NULL 23:12:08 S 23:12:10 While adding countless bloat on top of it 23:12:18 ah, ok, I just didn't have enough +s 23:12:30 Also preserving crap for 'backwards compatibility' 23:12:32 with all 0 programs 23:12:55 well, that's eso... 23:13:02 df? 23:14:01 Drainfuck, apparently 23:14:08 I have no idea how it differs from Brainfuck 23:14:12 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Drainfuck 23:14:32 ais523, ouch, like Barrow wights? 23:14:38 err spelling 23:14:47 ok, I think I don't understand most of the non-BF commands 23:14:48 -!- oc2k1 has joined. 23:14:55 hi oc2k1 23:15:04 hi 23:15:10 also, what sort of bot uses "bot" as a command marker? 23:15:30 bot. you mean 23:15:39 hmm... maybe 23:15:47 ais523, one coded in some OO language? 23:15:51 fungot, that's ridiculous isn't it? 23:15:53 heh 23:15:56 bot.foo.bar seems to indicate that 23:15:57 AnMaster: yes, it looks pretty OO 23:15:58 bot.drainfuck.run("a") 23:16:01 -CO2Bot- Unknown Function 'PUBLIC.FOO.BAR' 23:16:02 ugh 23:16:02 ah, fungot isn't here 23:16:02 aha 23:16:06 optbot: alive? 23:16:06 ais523: .ps 23:16:16 I want that bot out of here 23:16:22 AnMaster: why 23:16:25 which language is CO2Bot in, I wonder? 23:16:25 AnMaster: it's in php iirc 23:16:28 AnMaster: if co2games stops spamming with it it's OK 23:16:31 is it not? 23:16:32 ais523: ^ 23:16:33 maybe we can hack into it to cause it to leave 23:16:36 sure? his drainfuck was in C++ iirc 23:16:41 bot.raw("PART #esoteric") 23:16:48 AnMaster: hmm? 23:16:49 bot.raw "PART #esoteric") 23:16:57 bot.quote PART #esoteric 23:17:02 AnMaster: 23:17:20 what's the comment marker in PHP? 23:17:25 / 23:17:28 or # 23:17:29 or /**/ 23:17:39 bot./*test*/df.run test 23:17:44 ehird, I think // works 23:17:45 ah, ok, I don't think it's using eval 23:17:48 pity, really 23:17:51 yes 23:17:57 ehird, you wrote one slash 23:17:57 AnMaster: er s/cartoon/comic/ in the above 23:18:01 AnMaster: mistake. 23:18:07 ehird, yes I know how too 23:18:13 I guess /// will work at start of line 23:18:17 AnMaster: yea 23:18:31 -!- ap0 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:18:55 bot....public.df.run 23:19:07 hm... .. doesn't work well when your directory separator is . 23:20:13 bot.quit 23:20:30 bot.modules 23:20:30 Loaded modules are: CHAN, DRAINFUCK. 23:20:49 aha 23:20:52 bot.help chan 23:20:59 bot.chan.part #esoteric 23:21:02 bot.chan.leave 23:21:05 bot.chan 23:21:11 bot.chan Test 23:21:12 oh wait 23:21:16 drainfuck is df 23:21:19 so i guess its not module name 23:21:20 bot.part 23:21:23 bot.part #esoteric 23:23:31 hm wait 23:23:48 bot.df +[] 23:24:03 bot.df.program loopy +[] 23:24:07 bot.df.run loopy 23:24:08 string :: NULL 23:24:08 :: 65536 Action Limit exceeded! 23:24:11 darn 23:24:29 bot,df.program crash +[<+] 23:24:33 bot.df.program crash +[<+] 23:24:39 bot.df.run crash 23:24:39 string :: NULL 23:24:40 :: 65536 Action Limit exceeded! 23:24:51 hmm... does its tape go both ways, I wonder? 23:25:46 bot.df.program ,[,+] 23:25:57 bot.df.program cr2 ,[,+] 23:26:04 bot.df.run cr2 23:26:04 bot.df.run cr2 23:26:05 string :: NULL 23:26:05 string :: NULL 23:26:14 bot.df.run cr2 abcde 23:26:15 string :: string 23:26:15 :: 65536 Action Limit exceeded! 23:26:27 I don't get the :: stuff 23:27:07 something repl generated? 23:27:18 looks like var :: type 23:28:55 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Chimera 23:33:25 oklocod: a lazy function can evaluate its arguments more than once, or not at all 23:33:38 oerjan: in a lazy imperative language 23:33:40 if it's more than once, it's not lazy, but call-by-name 23:34:13 well, call-by-name is what I was going for 23:34:17 which are semantically equivalent in a pure language of course 23:34:17 but that's a form of laziness 23:34:42 Algol's call-by-name, but I think it doesn't eval args twice 23:34:48 anyway, I have to go home now 23:34:52 I'm about to miss the last bus 23:34:54 bye everyone! 23:35:14 i vaguely thought it did 23:35:17 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:35:17 bye 23:40:07 -!- metazilla has joined. 23:48:05 who is alive 23:48:53 Brains.. 23:49:51 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2008-10-09: 00:29:36 -!- comex has joined. 00:31:09 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 00:56:51 would a lazy but nonfunctional language even work? 01:01:16 there is nothing that can't work... 01:02:44 as long as you have some kind of dependency relation - one thing needs to be executed before another can 01:04:16 or execute all at the same time and drop all irrelevant results :P 01:04:29 that's not lazy execution though, but lenient 01:19:38 -!- omniscient_idiot has joined. 01:45:07 ^def ultraevil bf ,[>+[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<<.,] 01:45:35 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:45:40 ^def ultraevil bf ,[>+[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<<.,] 01:45:52 -!- CO2Games has joined. 01:46:06 ^ultraevil foo 01:46:14 bot.say ^ultraevil foo 01:46:23 bot.say ^ultraevil foo 01:46:23 ^ultraevil foo 01:46:28 mhmm 01:46:32 -!- CO2Games has left (?). 01:47:14 what would the bot do with a quine ? 01:50:16 bots generally don't see their own messages 01:51:03 Then we should add a second one :P 01:51:43 been there, done that :D 01:52:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | okay, it was a bad argument. 01:56:02 the BF quines aren't very short, and the command string would make them more complex... 01:57:51 yeah we usually used some other language 01:59:01 Underload has very short quines, and has a BF implementation 02:00:13 oh and fungot's ^echo ^echo is a quine, though i don't think we ever had two of those 02:00:32 it's easy with bots like fungot where you can use BF to define other commands 02:02:51 Another topic: A Cellular automaton, but a modification: The structur can be changed by forking a cell (empty space should allow growing) 02:03:26 that gets a bit weird with dimension > 1 02:03:57 if each cell can read neigbor cells variables, it should be possible to grow structures 02:09:41 i'm pretty sure there are some concurrent computation models based on doing this with general graphs, but i cannot remember the name 02:11:23 oh i thought it might be kolmogorov machines, but they are not concurrent 02:55:08 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:55:29 -!- oklocod has joined. 02:59:32 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:38:05 -!- DarkPants has joined. 03:38:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Nick collision from services.). 03:38:40 -!- DarkPants has changed nick to GreaseMonkey. 03:50:50 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:52:13 -!- CO2Games has joined. 03:52:30 I have a partially working drainfuck bot now 03:53:53 -!- CO2Games has left (?). 03:55:10 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 03:55:25 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 05:10:38 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has joined. 05:30:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("So, how much do you love noodles?"). 05:36:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:57:34 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good whenever"). 06:04:13 oooooooo 06:04:15 -> 06:13:25 -!- oklocod has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:13:40 -!- oklocod has joined. 06:23:32 -!- oklocod has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:23:47 -!- oklocod has joined. 06:24:18 -!- oklocod has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:24:43 -!- oklocod has joined. 07:04:37 -!- asiekierka has joined. 07:41:52 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("So, how much do you love noodles?"). 07:45:07 -!- Asztal^_^ has joined. 07:48:34 o.o 07:48:37 oklocod 07:49:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:52:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ~exec __import__("time").sleep(10);self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :10"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:30 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:23:49 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:24:49 "Numbers that fool the Fermat test are called Carmichael numbers, and little is known about them other than that they are extremely rare. There are 255 Carmichael numbers below 100,000,000. The smallest few are 561, 1105, 1729, 2465, 2821, and 6601. In testing primality of very large numbers chosen at random, the chance of stumbling upon a value that fools the Fermat test is less than the chance that 08:24:49 cosmic radiation will cause the computer to make an error in carrying out a ``correct'' algorithm. Considering an algorithm to be inadequate for the first reason but not for the second illustrates the difference between mathematics and engineering." 08:24:52 How deep... 08:25:09 whats the fermat test? 08:25:10 (source: footnote in scip) 08:25:51 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-11.html#%_sec_1.2.6 08:26:01 wait so whats the point being made? lol 08:26:24 that the fermat test, while not a prime test, is heuristically more reliable than an actual prime test? 08:26:49 it is a probabilistic prime test 08:26:55 yah 08:26:56 ok 08:27:00 however my point was "Considering an algorithm to be inadequate for the first reason but not for the second illustrates the difference between mathematics and engineering." 08:27:06 being a very deep statement 08:27:35 i presume the former is mathematics and the latter is engineering 08:29:25 * AnMaster considers a strongly typed LISP 08:29:30 wonder if that would work at all 08:29:34 probably not 08:30:02 psygnisfive, and yes I would say so 08:41:42 -!- sebbu has joined. 08:44:22 night guys 10:04:53 i'm pretty sure that quote is also in wp 10:05:49 oh, right, i've read half of sicp 10:06:06 so perhaps i just remember it from there 10:12:04 (arity 2) Both arguments must be integers. They are subtracted. If a negative value results, they get added instead. <<< ehird: pure geniosity :P 10:17:44 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("So, how much do you love noodles?"). 10:49:14 -!- jix has joined. 11:14:49 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:33:16 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 12:18:53 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 12:32:33 i think i've overloaded my brain with reading. 12:32:37 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol. 13:17:07 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:23:09 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 13:23:56 but, luckily i just finished my 600 pages, and can move to simpler subjects 13:23:57 \o/ 13:24:32 Declarative Programming, the last exam had something like a recursive fibonacci program you had to add comments to... :P 13:24:58 iz gona be smooooth sailin 13:25:20 yes, probably 13:26:32 there's quite a list of issues conserning laziness, dataflow variables and single-assignment and difference list based streams in concurrent declarative programming in the book 13:27:03 so it's not a trivial read, but the exam usually only has one theoretical question, mainly because the actual declarative programming part is totally new for so many 13:27:07 ppl 13:27:44 and i need to go to the shoppy -> 13:29:34 well it wasn't just a recursive fibonacci, it was a function from two fibonacci numbers to the next fibonacci number, and a procedure to give the next number and another procedure etc, written in a prolog-like syntax (basically, returns are just assigning given single-assignment vars) 13:30:29 ah, yes 13:30:31 but, well, i could've reverse-engineered it easily without knowing the language, so doesn't matter 13:30:39 more languages ought to return things the way Prolog does 13:30:46 yes, it's quite pretty 13:30:52 because it lets you write easily-symmetrical functions 13:31:01 yeah 13:31:35 the language the book uses is kinda neat, a subset of oz or mozart, not sure which is the name of the language and which is the implementation 13:32:38 single-assignment variables, so you can pass them down and return really anywhere in the recursion 13:32:57 by assigning them, and coming back up from the call tree 13:33:34 they have a continuationy feel to them, and the way to do name/value distinction is simply beautiful 13:33:54 but why didn't i leave, i'm in a hurry 13:33:59 cya -> 13:34:05 bye 13:38:27 "Dear google.com, 13:38:27 I visited your website and noticed that you are not listed in most of the major search engines and directories..." 13:38:27 apparently that's some genuine spam that Google got once 13:52:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | offsets?. 14:23:11 :D 14:23:24 i bet they contacted to guy for profit! 15:00:39 [14:59] • AnMaster considers a strongly typed LISP 15:00:41 [14:59] AnMaster: wonder if that would work at all 15:00:43 [14:59] AnMaster: probably not 15:00:45 yes it would 15:01:35 I think it could work 15:01:44 not sure how much point there would be, but no theoretical obstacles 15:06:30 according to the definition in my book, lisp is already strongly typed, you cannot take a value, and treat it as something it's not 15:06:35 it's just dynamically typed 15:06:48 really i've seen so many definitions i don't know what to think 15:07:10 A programming language characteristic that provides strict adherence to the rules of typing. Data of one type (integer, string, etc.) cannot be passed to a variable expecting data of a different type. Contrast with weak typing. 15:07:22 kinda iffy what that means. 15:07:34 oh 15:07:38 passed to a variable 15:07:46 that would mean staticnessity 15:09:41 i like the definition that weak/strong is about being able to meddle with the type of a value, and static/dynamic about whether variables can have a type at compile time 15:10:46 so C would be weak+static, lisp would be strong+dynamic 15:11:24 you cannot use a string as an int in lisp, while you can do that in c, on the other hand, lisp is dynamic, c is static 15:11:27 that's how I see it 15:11:45 and haskell is strong + static, PHP is weak + dynamic 15:11:49 yes 15:19:09 ya 15:20:56 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 15:34:10 it's just dynamically typed 15:34:11 hm 15:34:17 ok bad wording from me 15:34:23 strongly statically typed 15:34:25 was what I meant 15:34:30 AnMaster: yes 15:34:31 that is easy 15:34:33 what is the barrier 15:35:11 can't really see it fitting into the lisp "idea" 15:35:15 oh well 15:36:48 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:36:55 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:44:18 -!- Asztal^_^ has changed nick to Asztal. 15:58:03 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:59:09 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:06:41 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 16:51:18 “There are two types of people in the world: those who can’t tell the difference between Arial and Helvetica, and those who despise Arial.” –John Gruber 16:51:51 wb ais523 16:53:53 oh john gruber 17:00:59 :o 17:01:05 i get to make robots soon :D 17:01:25 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 17:03:52 john gruber annoys me most of the time but i liked that 17:04:03 hahahahaha 17:04:03 http://www.collegehumor.com/article:1763156#more 17:04:07 thrill of stealing 17:04:08 XD 17:10:10 -!- slereah has joined. 17:10:10 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:18:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:18:53 http://i33.tinypic.com/14xfng5.jpg 17:22:15 psygnisfive: Hahaha! It's as funny as it was in 2006!! 17:22:49 http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/8080/droughtxc8.gif 17:25:22 http://www.doubleviking.com/videos/page0.html/james-earl-jones-recites-alphabet-10343.html 17:25:25 N 17:25:26 O 17:25:28 P 17:25:34 Q 17:25:35 R 17:25:37 S ::smirk:: 17:26:43 ;;;) 17:26:57 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;) 17:32:54 imsotrd 17:34:42 -!- thutubot has joined. 17:34:59 +hello thutubot 17:35:02 +hello 17:35:02 Hello, ais523! 17:35:13 ++hello 17:35:31 HELLO AIS 523 17:35:46 hmm... I thought I'd bring Thutubot in here 17:35:49 because fungot is missing 17:35:59 and it seems wrong to have no esolangbots in the channel 17:36:06 we have optbot, but it doesn't interpret esolangs AFAIK 17:36:06 ais523: right 17:36:13 :) 17:36:27 +ul (:aSS):aSS 17:36:28 (:aSS):aSS 17:36:32 unfortunately it only does Underload 17:36:42 and has no protection against being crashed by invalid input, etc 17:36:56 infiniloops kill it too 17:37:33 i wanna make a botter 17:37:42 what would it do? 17:38:07 probably interpret esolangs, but i was thinking making a bot *in* an esolang, it seems to be the trend 17:38:07 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:38:15 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:38:20 like.. unlambda? 17:41:54 why not 17:42:00 thutubot's written in an esolang 17:42:16 * ais523 ponders the concept of a Thutu quine 17:42:23 probably wouldn't be too hard if it was a one-liner 17:53:57 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:19:12 I WOULD LIKE A PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE/LIBRARY CHANNEL 18:19:12 THAT 18:19:13 DOESN'T 18:19:14 THINK 18:19:14 I'M 18:19:15 A 18:19:15 RETARD 18:19:18 AND 18:19:20 NEED 18:19:22 ED 18:19:24 TO 18:19:26 BE 18:19:28 ASKED 18:19:30 THE 18:19:32 MOST 18:19:34 TRIVIA 18:19:38 L 18:19:40 ehird: stop spamming 18:19:40 SHIT 18:20:06 PLEASE!!! 18:20:10 ais523: ffffffffff 18:20:41 Fungot's missing because it had again gotten hung up when someone mentioned its name. There is a bug in either the babble-generation code or the code to build the babbling model, but it pretty rarely triggers. 18:21:10 -!- fungot has joined. 18:21:29 fungot: trigger fnord 18:21:29 ehird: tell sarahbot about unicode 18:21:33 fungot: no 18:21:33 ehird: yeah i've tried with the mandelbrot code is that the shootout is silly in general, your stream permute? if the graphics are 2d, and bf works in bf, as well 18:21:59 "your stream permute?" 18:22:01 Heh. 18:22:29 Should've removed some of those silly commands from the state file while I was at it 18:22:32 ^show 18:22:32 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc aaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul 18:23:17 ^lolercakes 18:23:17 . 18:23:40 I don't think most of them make any sort of sense. 18:23:53 ^echochohoo echochohoo 18:23:54 echochohoochochohoohochohooochohoochohoohohooohoohooooo 18:24:01 ^echo_cho_ho_o echochohoo 18:24:01 echochohoo chochohoo hochohoo ochohoo chohoo hohoo ohoo hoo oo o 18:24:12 I implemented the second one to annoy CO2Games 18:24:19 as he'd spent about an hour trying to get it to work 18:24:21 Okay, those two are very useful. 18:24:22 after seeing my original 18:26:38 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:27:50 ^code 002aaa***99++p 18:27:52 ^show 18:27:52 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc 18:27:58 There, a lot shorter list. 18:28:35 -!- oc2k1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:29:45 -!- oc2k1 has joined. 18:35:10 is the bot itself written in befunge, or does it just have befunge capabilities? 18:35:20 Asztal: fungot is written in Befunge 18:35:21 ais523: no he is just implementing it. it's pretty difficult to write 18:35:27 just like thutubot is written in Thutu 18:38:12 ^code ay.by. 18:38:24 :( 18:40:17 -!- jix has joined. 18:41:50 The ^code is so abusable that I had to limit it. 18:42:20 well, yes 18:42:36 that's like giving root shells to everyone who visits your website 18:42:40 presumably it only works for you 18:42:42 Asztal: If you haven't seen the link to sources yet, it's at http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt and the helpful diagram about how it works is at http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/fungotsmall.png 18:42:42 fizzie: or even for me. :p 18:42:52 yet you allow p? (or does it change the storage offset, perhaps?) 18:42:53 anyway, that did that code you wrote do? 18:43:30 Asztal: It allows anything, since it's only usable by me. It's mainly there so I can patch things without shutting the whole bot down. 18:44:20 ais523: It stuck a 0 into fungespace at row 2018, column 0, which is where the 10th ^def command name would be; the zero there works as a command list terminator. 18:44:36 ah, ok 18:44:44 so by defining a command we could get all the old commands back? 18:45:06 No, ^def adds a zero after the command it defines. 18:45:26 But I could stick a letter there to get them back, I guess. 18:45:40 ^code "x"02aaa***99++p 18:45:41 ^show 18:45:41 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc xaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul 18:46:01 Didn't remember the correct first letter, so used 'x'. 18:46:17 most of them are pointless anyway 18:46:39 hey, it's Asztal 18:46:43 what happened to http://svn.asztal.net/befunge98/ ? 18:46:53 that was a slight accident 18:47:13 meaning what? 18:47:14 I should probably add a ^reload-state or something, since it already has a ^reload command which reloads the code. Then I could remove single commands from the state file and reload that. 18:47:27 you broke your server or lost your code? :-P 18:47:32 the "delete repository" button on my web host's control panel really should confirm the deletion :( 18:47:40 meh 18:47:52 no backups? 18:47:54 also, my mouse tends to scroll sometimes when I middle-click 18:47:59 I've got r25 18:48:04 I've gone one here 18:49:48 I've also got something from january which has no .svn though 18:50:11 then you quite possibly have more copies than I do :D 18:50:18 I've never actually used SVN for anything more complex than update/commit, so I don't know if committing the old stuff to this empty repository will work 18:51:06 if you would have used a DVCS I'd have the whole history and you'd've lost nothing since 1 month ago :-/ 18:51:22 and neither do I, I haven't used SVN much 18:56:44 Asztal: iki.fi/deewiant/befunge98.zip has what I had, feel free to grab it and sort out what you can 18:57:32 OK (I'm supposed to have weekly snapshots of all of my files, svn included, though, I'm looking at them now) 18:59:26 let me know when you got it or if you're not going to, so I can remove the .zip from taking up space on my server :-P 19:01:17 who is Asztal anyhook 19:02:30 ehird: http://iki.fi/deewiant/befunge/mycology-comparison.html#interpreters-tested - scroll down to befunge98 19:02:35 alternatively, http://www.asztal.net/ 19:03:42 Cool. 19:05:22 A bunch of time has been spent optimizing cfunge—to the point that his acquaintances poke fun at him about micro-optimization—and as a result it is certainly among the fastest interpreters out there. 19:05:25 heh 19:05:46 well, I had to say /something/ :-P 19:06:09 Deewiant: i recommend you add more rage and CAPSLOCK 19:06:15 then i shall officially approve that :| 19:06:16 nah 19:06:20 :D 19:06:21 ah, there we go... it doesn't help that the directory names in ~/svn aren't necessarily related to the HTTP path used to get to it :) 19:06:35 Asztal: how do I shot URI->file mapping 19:06:37 also, now that it's there, nobody look at the horrible code please 19:06:48 yay 19:06:52 everybody look at http://svn.asztal.net/befunge98/ 19:07:17 Asztal: also, I note you haven't updated since I posted the new results, what's up with that? ;-) 19:07:19 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:07:35 Deewiant: it's university time :) 19:07:41 the “2k6 leaves 2 sixes on stack” problem 19:07:50 hmm... what is 2k6 meant to do? 19:07:55 leave 3 sixes on stack 19:07:58 I'm certainly going to try and make k work, even though I hate it 19:08:01 sucks doesn't it 19:08:10 ah, because the cursor ends up on the 6 afterwards 19:08:13 I remember that now 19:08:14 yep 19:08:24 it does? 19:08:28 yeah 19:08:30 well, that might explain some things... 19:08:31 evidently 19:08:33 :D 19:08:51 we've had hours of fun arguing about k in this channel 19:08:54 I assumed it was like s 19:08:58 as did I 19:10:01 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 19:11:18 Deewiant: hmm... I wonder if it's worth adding C-INTERCAL to your Mycology results page 19:11:25 probably not as it's basically cfunge 19:11:29 just with a different front-end 19:18:01 god i hate documenting my code 19:18:10 i hate it so much 19:18:14 i want a secretary 19:27:03 oklopol: for class? 19:27:10 yes 19:27:17 ^show 19:27:17 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc xaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul 19:27:35 wow, I didn't realise /clear worked 19:27:36 i made a fileuploadbin for some course i took half a year ago 19:27:41 I must do that more often 19:27:47 dl is near... 19:27:59 ais523: why? 19:28:13 it's so nice seeing a completely empty IRC channel 19:28:20 empty of comments and metadata, that is 19:28:51 the problem with /clear is, every time you do it, someone says something half a second before you do it, and you have to open the logs 19:29:10 well okay, that never happened to me, but i imagine it *could* happen 19:29:40 * ais523 feels like pasting a really excellent Underload program into the channel and having Thutubot run it 19:29:50 I'm not sure if I have any really excellent programs offhand that aren't infiniloops, though 19:30:55 http://www.scenegroup.com/ <<< does anyone know who this girl is, by any chance? 19:31:07 well, presumably someone does 19:31:09 why do you ask? 19:31:24 i've done some work for ggl, and that seems to be like the most common spam page in the web 19:31:33 i call her spam girl 19:31:41 it has been my dream for a while to meet her 19:31:56 and, you know, spam her 19:32:05 if you know what i mean ;;;) 19:32:11 ... 19:32:34 but yeah, she's famous to me, so i'm somewhat curious as to who she is 19:33:48 its just the same company 19:33:57 using like 3 placeholder iamges 19:34:39 +ul ()()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:)~*(*)*( )S~):*:*:*:*:*:*:*^ 19:34:44 that girl is used many times more than any other image. 19:34:47 this could take a while, I suspect 19:34:54 as Thutu isn't particularly efficient 19:35:01 and it doesn't matter why she's on every spam page, just that she is. 19:36:26 yep, Thutubot's using 90% of my CPU power atm 19:36:29 trying to figure that one out 19:36:54 anyone want to try to figure out what it does before Thutubot comes up with the answer? 19:36:59 no 19:39:36 :) 19:39:46 oklopol: any idea? 19:39:50 oh no. 19:40:03 i don't even remember the underload commands tbh 19:40:11 well, most of them 19:40:14 but not all 19:42:33 ah, pity 19:42:42 * ais523 somehow suspects that Thutubot wouldn't get finished this year 19:42:47 due to the inefficient way I wrote the loop 19:44:01 i wish i had the time to do interesting things. 19:52:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | heh. 20:04:53 -!- asiekierka has joined. 20:04:55 hello 20:07:33 hi 20:08:02 I was thinking about esolangs 20:08:05 And i thought about Agnes. 20:08:09 Actually GeNtle ESolang 20:08:16 :) 20:10:02 ais523, wtf was that code above 20:10:31 and about VAPLE 20:10:34 AnMaster: Underload 20:10:37 Very Arrogant Programming LanguagE 20:10:39 Thutubot is still trying to run it 20:10:42 ais523: Could you repeat it, please? 20:10:43 (Thutubot isn't very efficient...) 20:10:48 ais523, use a better interpreter? 20:10:50 ()()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:)~*(*)*( )S~):*:*:*:*:*:*:*^ 20:10:53 AnMaster: I have one 20:10:59 holy crap 20:10:59 I just wanted to give Thutubot something interesting 20:11:01 and what language is Thutubot coded in? 20:11:04 and what does TTHAATT do 20:11:04 Thutu 20:11:12 ais523, oh an esolang 20:11:17 explains why it is so slow hehe 20:11:30 fungot is faster, mainly because it limits cycles 20:11:30 asiekierka: ( finite 0 ( freereference-exp yourself)) returns. 20:11:36 wwhat? 20:12:04 ais523, that looks like some LISP code with bad space placement to me 20:12:16 AnMaster: what, the fungot code? 20:12:17 ais523: oh no! now he will be able to fnord files :) 20:13:22 I'm wondering what language should i make an ircbot in 20:13:38 I could make one in underload, but no, you can't 20:13:39 :P 20:13:51 Except if you issue commands to him in church numerals 20:14:03 ais523, the code he said 20:14:06 asiekierka: ( finite 0 ( freereference-exp yourself)) returns. 20:14:06 AnMaster: i could so easily turn that into something more intelligible 20:14:20 fungot, well do that then! 20:14:20 AnMaster: btw, the fnord 20:14:31 fungot, was that an insult 20:14:31 AnMaster: i might try to implement a fnord that presents itself as something, but that 20:15:08 huh 20:15:38 AnMaster: Thutu programs tend to be a computational order slower than most other langs 20:15:49 due to needing to store lots of massive strings in memory and doing regexen on them 20:16:57 wtf was that beep 20:17:08 * AnMaster can't figure out what made the pc speaker beep 20:17:10 wasn't me, I don't think 20:17:17 ais523, no not irc 20:17:27 I just flash window for that 20:17:32 Is there an esolang that i should make an ircbot in? 20:17:42 Thutu, definitely, it's great at that 20:17:54 although it's not so good at interpreting Underload 20:17:56 asiekierka, you *could* make one in Thutu or Befunge-98 20:17:58 perl 20:17:59 both have been done 20:18:07 asiekierka, what about INTERCAL? 20:18:11 that would be fun 20:18:12 Thutu was done 20:18:15 or has it been done too? 20:18:16 Befunge-98 was done 20:18:19 Intercal!? 20:18:23 asiekierka, yes? 20:18:34 has it been done ais523 ? 20:18:39 AnMaster: I don't think so 20:18:44 INTERCAL is lousy at string-handling 20:18:47 asiekierka, there you are then 20:18:48 it's one of its main weaknesses 20:19:00 If i did understand intercal very good... 20:19:04 asiekierka, you probably want to connect STDIN and STDOUT to netcat or such 20:19:05 also, string-handling is essential 20:19:20 asiekierka, what about Asztal suggestion then? 20:19:26 windows doesn't have netcat 20:19:28 good string handling 20:19:34 Perl is not an esolang 20:19:34 though 20:19:39 asiekierka, yes it is 20:19:42 ok 20:19:45 check entry on the esolang wiki 20:19:45 :P 20:19:46 but not an _obscure_ esolang 20:19:46 asiekierka: INTERCAL can do string-handling but is really bad at it, deliberately bad I think sometimes 20:19:50 asiekierka, heh ok 20:20:07 asiekierka, also befunge isn't very good at handling strings either 20:20:21 fizzie, does fungot use STRN? 20:20:21 AnMaster: hence the all caps a second ago 20:20:24 Anything that can't do a cell-based system isn't very good 20:20:26 um 20:20:28 that made sense 20:20:30 I used all caps 20:20:31 But Befungey can 20:20:32 for STRN 20:20:42 Befungey? 20:20:43 AnMaster: Yes. 20:20:46 ah ok 20:20:52 then I retract that statement 20:20:56 AnMaster: Since string-handling is such a pain otherwise. :) 20:20:57 you can get string handling using STRN 20:21:10 fizzie, JSTR too? 20:21:24 AnMaster: Not that. What did it do again? 20:21:37 so, well 20:21:40 what else? 20:21:48 Perl, BF, Underload, Befunge, INTERCAL, Thutu are out 20:21:54 maybe... Piet? 20:21:57 fizzie, changes two STRN instructions to do load/store from funge-space in a more consistent (with other funge commands) way 20:22:07 asiekierka, what about Trefunge? 20:22:09 or even better 20:22:11 Unefunge 20:22:48 asiekierka, there is always brainfuck 20:22:55 I said BF is out 20:23:02 And is there an article on Unefunge? 20:23:17 asiekierka, it is like single-dimension befunge 20:23:20 so just one line 20:23:24 trefunge is 3D variant 20:24:18 while you could code befungish in trefunge, you couldn't code that way in unefunge 20:25:26 Fugneoids are out. 20:25:30 I should make Minifunge once 20:25:40 oh well 20:25:41 not 20:25:42 AnMaster: JSTR seems to me like it'd just complicate things, since it seems to require specifying string lengths explicitly. 20:25:43 Anything else 20:26:10 fizzie, hm ok 20:26:21 asiekierka, hm 20:26:30 asiekierka, /// ? 20:26:39 wiki page is slashes 20:26:40 however 20:26:43 wait won't work 20:26:45 no input 20:27:10 asiekierka, I know! 20:27:11 http://shakespearelang.sourceforge.net/ 20:27:12 :D 20:27:16 oklocod: 20:27:17 [[* oklopol had the nick "oklocod" when e registered on #really-a-cow; 20:27:18 however, e did not give enough information to be sufficient to contact 20:27:18 em reliably. E seems to normally use nicks starting with "oklo" on 20:27:18 irc://irc.freenode.net. 20:27:19 ]] 20:27:21 I didn't read Shakespeare YET 20:27:26 you're noted specially in an agoran report! 20:27:26 aww 20:27:34 asiekierka, and? 20:27:44 And this 20:27:53 the problem is trying to notify people about contact details when you don't know them yourself 20:27:54 ? 20:28:03 The wikientry is "Slashes" 20:28:11 asiekierka, yes I know that 20:28:16 asiekierka, the language name is /// though 20:28:31 -!- Hiato has joined. 20:28:37 asiekierka, if you had asked for the wiki page I would have said slashes 20:28:45 however I prefer using the correct language name 20:29:04 -!- atrapado has joined. 20:29:34 yeah 20:29:35 i see 20:29:52 asiekierka, still I think SPL is a good idea 20:30:02 :) 20:30:04 @ ehird 20:30:04 asiekierka, or what about Taxi? 20:30:12 * oklopol is sooo famous 20:30:17 oklopol: you might wanna subscribe to the lists 20:30:17 :P 20:30:22 Taxi may be good 20:30:31 asiekierka, not very interesting though really 20:30:43 asiekierka, some functional language maybe? 20:31:15 an esolang 20:31:19 see 20:31:28 a Cbot isn't just as interesting as a Taxibot 20:31:42 asiekierka, there are functional esolangs 20:31:48 underload you said no too 20:31:53 but what about unlambda? 20:31:55 ehird: i might :) 20:31:58 Because it has no input, underload 20:31:59 asiekierka doesn't know what functional means, AnMaster 20:32:01 i imagine 20:32:03 ag 20:32:08 unlambda, i don't know the lambda calculus 20:32:08 ehird: if you link fazzzzt, i might do it just now 20:32:20 oklopol: needs a bit of copy pasting :( 20:32:24 ehird, or does unlamda lack input? 20:32:25 oklopol: http://agoranomic.org/ under how to play, subscribe to all of the lists 20:32:26 dang. 20:32:28 oklopol: but 20:32:34 oklopol: you only need official, business and discussion 20:32:35 for now 20:32:39 you can do backup whenever 20:32:41 i did 20:32:50 do i actually have to do something? i wanna start things slow. 20:32:56 ehird, and I know what functional means, however I find it hard keeping those under* un* languages apart 20:33:00 they have quite similiar names 20:33:01 i mean, after subscribing 20:33:06 similar 20:33:06 oklopol: nope 20:33:14 oklopol: note that you'll get like 5-20 emails a day 20:33:15 btw, another way to fill our server with crap 20:33:15 ehird, so what did you mean exactly? 20:33:18 www.vjn.fi/upload 20:33:19 i don't 20:33:23 oklopol: if you can might wanna set up a filter to put it all in an 'agora' folder 20:33:25 oh wait 20:33:25 nothing 20:33:27 also that's quite simple to crack, so feel free 20:33:47 asiekierka, Malbolge? 20:33:53 asiekierka, it got input and output 20:33:56 (but tell me so i can fix everything, since i submitted that piece of crap as a course project :P) 20:34:21 aaaagh, malbolge? do you want my brain to explode!? 20:34:31 asiekierka, well Taxi maybe 20:34:42 asiekierka, http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Language_list#S 20:34:45 err 20:34:47 asiekierka, http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Language_list 20:34:49 I meant 20:35:10 no idea how uptodate that is 20:35:17 I guess not 20:35:57 oklopol: but yea, definitely need to subscribe to official, discussion and business 20:35:58 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:35:59 the rest can wait 20:36:03 as theyre only used when the lists are down 20:36:09 which was last a few months ago 20:36:20 apart from that 20:36:21 -!- asiekierka has joined. 20:36:22 or when scamming a new public forum 20:36:24 yo don't have to do anything 20:36:25 which was last done this week 20:36:27 unless you explicitly opt in 20:36:28 I want a 2D language, so i can check 2d languages 20:36:30 ais523: :-P 20:36:33 asiekierka: BackFlip? 20:36:39 let me check 20:36:39 that definitely isn't a funge 20:36:41 everything 20:36:44 but is rubbish for a bot 20:36:46 oklopol: if you get bored of just reading and wanna do stuff, the fully annotated ruleset is at http://agora.qoid.us/current_flr.txt 20:36:55 64 articles to check 20:37:22 ehird: and will you tell me how to make all the agoran stuff go to a specific folder on gmail? i have no idea how to do that. 20:37:28 oklopol: OK 20:37:30 i'll tell you via /msg 20:38:14 asiekierka, Taxi with input and output connected to some program to handle network connection sounds good 20:38:25 yeah 20:38:32 asiekierka, such as netcat 20:38:32 AnMaster: thutubot is just loop-connected to the IRC channel using netcat and a fifo 20:38:37 and netcat exists for cygwin 20:38:44 so no excuse 20:38:50 you could even do it with telnet 20:38:56 which is on Windows by default IIRC 20:39:11 on the other hand, Windows doesn't have FIFOs, so the plumbing might be harder 20:39:22 ais523, not using windows telnet I suspect 20:39:23 anyway 20:39:28 just use cygwin 20:39:40 or Linux, *BSD or whatever 20:39:59 (and to ehird, OS X can be considered a *BSD) 20:40:10 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:40:19 AnMaster: Congrats, now asiekierka has you down as their personal tech support for installing cygwin... 20:40:33 ehird, no? why would I do that 20:40:40 My answer would be RTFM 20:40:41 :P 20:40:48 AnMaster: It's hard to ignore asiekierka ... 20:40:57 ehird, since I haven't used cygwin for over 4 years 20:41:05 I would be totally unable to help anyway 20:41:06 afk food 20:41:41 no 20:41:45 i installed cygwin once 20:41:46 so no problem 20:41:47 :D 20:42:08 also, netcat outputs to...? 20:42:27 stdout and stdin 20:42:33 you can pipe programs together 20:42:40 the problem is connecting the pipe around in a loop 20:42:46 from Taxi to nc and back to Taxi 20:42:50 nc? 20:42:52 on Unix, you can use a FIFO for that 20:42:54 nc = netcat 20:42:55 oh 20:42:56 yeah 20:43:04 but I don't know how it works on Windows, if at all 20:43:05 But netcat sends/receives the data to/from...? 20:43:14 nc irc.freenode.net 6667 20:43:24 will send from its stdin to Freenode, and from Freenode to its stdout 20:44:04 mhm 20:44:15 So you mean, i must raw-write the IRC protocol? 20:44:19 write it in code 20:44:51 Also, Befunge would be awesome, if it only allowed to have separate files 20:44:51 like 20:44:58 main.b93 20:44:59 connect.b93 20:45:02 protocol.b93 20:45:03 etc 20:45:03 etc 20:45:05 asiekierka: it does, you can load them with O 20:45:10 umm... o 20:45:15 or possibly i 20:45:21 in bef-93? 20:45:22 grr... I keep forgetting Befunge commands 20:45:25 no, bef-98 20:45:42 I'd like to use -98 20:45:47 but what are the differences 20:46:48 asiekierka: b98 has more commands 20:46:54 an unlimited-size playfield 20:46:57 yeah 20:46:58 i know this 20:46:59 and spaces work differnetly in strings 20:47:02 Oh 20:47:02 that's about it 20:47:04 explain this 20:47:06 the spaces 20:47:17 "abc def" has two spaces in the middle in b-93 20:47:21 but one space in the middle in b-98 20:47:27 to prevent def" "abc 20:47:33 having an infinite number of spaces in the middle 20:48:25 oh 20:48:29 ok 20:48:41 So i will use -98 now 20:48:44 at this point 20:48:46 or rather 20:48:50 90% -93, 10% -98 20:48:52 but wait 20:48:57 i broke my rules 20:49:01 there can't be 2 fungots 20:49:01 asiekierka: i get to wait for processes? files? sockets? 20:49:03 right? 20:49:08 right? 20:49:18 ais523: it's mnemonic: i for input, o for output 20:49:50 asiekierka: and, another difference is dividing by zero 20:49:59 gives zero in befunge-98, asks the user in befunge-93 20:50:20 yayz 20:50:21 But wait 20:50:26 can there be 2 fungots? 20:50:26 asiekierka: was that scheme-only compilers you were mentioning 20:50:42 why not? 20:50:48 i wasn't mentioning any scheme-only compilers! right? 20:50:51 also 20:50:56 great 20:51:16 i stopped noticing fungotexts from normal chat 20:51:16 optbot: are you a fungot? 20:51:16 asiekierka: but then how do you use 20:51:16 ais523: code objects are treated as such!! do you have lying around? 20:51:16 ais523: Indeed. 20:51:31 I remember when i did a trick with CO2Bot 20:51:41 to make fungot chat with optbot 20:51:41 asiekierka: your brain is fucked" xd family guy is so right, i understand. 20:51:42 asiekierka: TYPEINFO IN PLOF!!!!! 20:51:52 Wait 20:51:55 is thutubot working? 20:52:06 it's still busily trying to count to 64 20:52:17 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHH 20:52:20 didn't it CRASH? 20:52:23 or... something? 20:52:24 nope 20:52:30 it's at 95% CPU usage atm 20:52:37 Augh 20:52:45 what you're observing there is O(n^6) time or something silly like that 20:52:46 I never bothered to calculate it exactly 20:52:50 Hmm 20:53:36 maybe I should bring in a second thutubot 20:53:55 also 20:53:58 ^echochohoo optbot 20:53:59 optbotptbottbotbotott 20:53:59 ais523: probably best to move onto variables now 20:53:59 fungot: in any case, unsigned char value; should work 20:54:00 optbot: so does foxfire chat in here. 20:54:00 fungot: http://www.www.www/ 20:54:01 optbot: but you said ' a verifier for a fnord 20:54:01 fungot: cya Keymaker 20:54:01 optbot: high five fnord :p 20:54:02 fungot: at least not to me... done lots of thinking on different ways to specify infinite lists 20:54:02 optbot: do you have 20:54:03 fungot: sorry 20:54:15 oh 20:54:17 right 20:54:35 ^show 20:54:36 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc xaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul 20:54:46 ^trulyawfulrot13 optbot: hi 20:54:46 most of those are CO2Games spam, by the way 20:54:47 optbot: hi 20:54:47 asiekierka: Step 3. Go to step 5. 20:54:47 fungot: I should make a small list of lambda expressions to short combinators. 20:54:59 wait 20:55:04 did someone banathon it 20:55:19 in the end fizzie banned CO2Games from fungot, IIRC 20:55:19 ais523: still testing it with an address for which addr n 0? 20:55:28 ototototototo 20:56:18 ojojojojojojo 20:58:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:17:26 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 21:18:33 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:26:40 back 21:27:49 to prevent def" "abc 21:27:49 having an infinite number of spaces in the middle 21:27:50 huh? 21:27:57 AnMaster: Befunge wraps 21:28:05 in a bignum Funge 21:28:06 yes I know that 21:28:11 then if you weren't using SGML spaces 21:28:18 you could put an infinite number of spaces in a string 21:28:24 um 21:28:40 * AnMaster considers this 21:28:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:28:55 ais523, first: is that the whole program? 21:29:05 no, it isn't 21:29:15 ;def";"abc 21:29:19 then it will push 0xd, 0xe, 0xf, space, 0xa, 0xb, 0xc and repeat 21:29:20 if you want a complete program as an example 21:29:25 AnMaster: yes, I know 21:29:33 I'm trying to explain why b98 uses SGML spaces 21:29:42 if it didn't you'd get an infinite number of spaces 21:29:52 ais523, I still don't see how it cause infinite spaces 21:30:06 ais523, since string mode wrap at program edge 21:30:14 as given by y 21:30:19 ah, I treat Funge as not having a program edge, really 21:30:29 so you will get one space at edge probably 21:30:35 at least that happens in ccbi and cfunge iirc 21:30:40 it is not 100% well defined 21:30:55 ais523, yet you won't get infinite spaces 21:31:24 ais523, since wrapping works the same way in strings as outside them 21:32:03 which is to conceptually go off to infinity and back the other side 21:32:13 IMO that's the only sensible way to interpret Funge-98 21:32:16 as everything else is a hack 21:32:55 optbot: are you a fungot? ais523: Indeed. <-- hehehe 21:32:55 AnMaster: hi 21:32:56 AnMaster: vhdl is reactive by the nature of this channel 21:33:45 which is to conceptually go off to infinity and back the other side <-- no 21:33:58 ais523, the interpreter keeps track of where the program data exists 21:34:02 a bounding box for it 21:34:15 then it wraps when you hit the edge for said bounding box 21:34:33 well, that's how interpreters work 21:34:38 * AnMaster considers a strongly typed LISP 21:34:38 but that's conceptually ugly 21:34:50 oerjan, yes statically strongly typed even 21:34:50 there is Liskell, haskell with lisp syntax 21:35:01 ais523, read the definition of wrapping then 21:35:20 Lahey-space? 21:35:23 ais523, http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html#Wrapping 21:35:25 it's going back along the line you came from 21:35:28 was what I was thinking about 21:35:43 ais523, Lahey-space is in an appendix, the section I linked isn't 21:35:52 well, it talks about going beyond addressable space 21:35:54 so I suspect the algorithmic description is more correct 21:35:59 which is the whole 2^31-1 IMO 21:36:35 Note that it doesn't say anything about using a rectangular bounding box. 21:36:40 fizzie, very true 21:36:49 however I have yet to see an interpreter that doesn't 21:37:13 ais523, err 21:37:15 "When the IP attempts to travel into the whitespace between the code and the end of known, addressable space, it backtracks." 21:37:21 not going beyond 21:37:23 AnMaster: GLfunge98. :p 21:37:25 but that is edge 21:37:36 "Travelling thus, it finds the other 'edge' of code when there is again nothing but whitespace in front of it. It is reflected 180 degrees once more (to restore its original delta) and stops ignoring instructions. Execution then resumes normally - the wrap is complete." 21:37:38 ais523, see? 21:37:53 fizzie, really? what does it use then? a counter for each line? 21:38:07 http://liskell.org/ 21:38:59 fizzie, anyway it also needs to track the bounding rect for y, and it needs to track the rect for non-cardinal wrapping, since even if it tracks per line/column what if you exit the edge diagonally, but end up on a longer line in the next jump 21:39:02 AnMaster: There was a tree-like structure of I think 16x16- or 64x64-sized blocks; I'm not sure if it was a multi-level tree or not, probably should've been for programs that use funge-space that's out there in the middle of nowhere. In any case, it would trigger wrapping when you exited a block and there were no more blocks in the outgoing line. 21:39:27 fizzie, so it handled non-cardinal wrapping correctly? 21:39:54 AnMaster: It certainly tried to. There may have been bugs, but at least it mostly worked. I think. It's been quite a while, and the code was very very ugly. 21:40:03 fizzie, did you write it or? 21:40:07 AnMaster: Yes. 21:40:09 ah 21:40:17 fizzie, does fungot work under it? 21:40:18 AnMaster: another example of the sort you're talking about 21:40:52 AnMaster: Probably not. I didn't implement a lot of fingerprints, I'm not sure I did STRN for example. The development sort-of stalled quite early. 21:41:13 fizzie, ah, how about mycology? 21:41:39 Never ran it under it; hadn't even heard of mycology until recently. I think Deewiant ran some tests with GLfunge98, though. 21:42:06 Yeah, only FOON, FPSP, NULL, ROMA, SCKE, SOCK are implemented. 21:42:11 FOON? 21:42:11 ?! 21:42:17 what is that 21:42:18 That's just sillitude. 21:42:24 fizzie, eh? 21:42:33 I never heard of FOON before 21:42:58 I'm not surprised. 21:43:07 It just implements this number-to-string-and-back mapping: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.misc/browse_thread/thread/5eeb8154a2a9ac0c/07f29c8ea40c35a3 21:43:10 AnMaster, fizzie: GLfunge98 fails due to "# <" jumping over the <. 21:43:22 Deewiant, ouch 21:43:36 AnMaster: iiuc Liskell also has macros in the lisp style 21:43:40 oerjan, hm 21:43:46 Really, I wrote that thing back in 2001. 21:43:51 fizzie, ah 21:44:02 fizzie: You wrote http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.misc/browse_thread/thread/5eeb8154a2a9ac0c/07f29c8ea40c35a3? 21:44:25 ehird: No, that's not me. But a friend wrote a Befunge-93 program to convert numbers to that. 21:44:29 Ah. 21:44:39 ehird: I have no idea why I have made a fingerprint for that. 21:45:06 Oh, right! The fingerprint was there to test the shared library that did the conversion. 21:45:32 Wait, fizzie wrote glfunge? 21:45:52 fizzie, it is missing quux 21:45:53 I did, but I'm not very proud about it. 21:45:59 Huh. 21:46:07 AnMaster: Yes, but quux just leads to quuux, quuuux, ... 21:46:25 fizzie, well also xyzzy 21:46:36 Asztal: Don't call it sponge, btw. 21:46:39 http://cubonegro.orgfree.com/sponge/sponge.html 21:46:59 AnMaster: It's just one scheme to generate... I was going to say an arbitrary, but it's not that; in any case, to generate a relatively large amount of names. 21:47:22 I think there was some sort of extension to larger numbers than that. Maybe archive.org still has mooz's befunge pages. 21:48:33 ehird: bah. 21:48:39 -!- jix has joined. 21:48:43 Yes, it does. Seems that he extended the Razzle, Dazzle sequence of suffixes with Giggle and Wiggle. 21:48:44 I hate naming thigs. 21:48:50 Asztal: Call it egnuf 21:48:52 (thanks for the warning, though) 21:49:18 I can't find what Asztal wanted to name in the scrollback 21:49:20 ? 21:49:34 eggnog 21:49:50 AnMaster: a befunge interpeter 21:50:00 ehird, anyway, one thing I find amusing about sponge is that it is compiles scheme, but is coded in common lisp 21:50:05 which is bad, since the other Sponge is also befunge-related :( 21:50:14 Asztal: Amanita 21:50:17 Asztal: yes, call it eggnog! 21:50:29 beMunge, because munge is what it does :) 21:50:41 (poisonous fungi) 21:51:19 Asztal, some names I know are in use: cfunge, efunge, ccbi, fbbi, rc/funge, !befunge, zfunge, glfunge, mycology, and a few more 21:51:22 and always google to check 21:52:21 rc/funge-98 to be exact 21:52:43 and glfunge98 21:52:52 Results 1 - 10 of about 129 for beMunge. (0.13 seconds) <-- turns out it think there are 25 hits when I show the last page... huh 21:52:57 Deewiant, right 21:53:04 then there's bequnge, fungus, language::befunge AKA jqbf, pyfunge 21:53:14 or jqbf98 21:53:18 Deewiant, however creating a glfunge93 or such would be highly confusing :P 21:53:27 at least if it wasn't same author 21:53:32 or a plain glfunge 21:53:33 :-P 21:53:43 same for rc/funge 21:53:59 AnMaster: http://www.digitalnature.org/fungi/alfabetic.html - take your pick 21:54:17 Deewiant, Hm does mycology handle strange cases of io support correctly? Such as just o but not i supported, or vice verse? 21:54:27 AnMaster: define "correctly" 21:54:34 hmm... Stinkhorn 21:54:35 Deewiant, "doesn't print BAD" 21:54:35 I think it complains about not being able to test 21:55:15 Deewiant, I remember it used to print BAD because it, back in the beginning of the year when I hadn't written those parts in cfunge yet 21:55:25 hm what about truffles 21:55:28 iirc you fixed it after I pointed out it was allowed not to support it in the standard 21:55:39 oerjan: ALFABETIC 21:56:17 "Bovine Bolete" <-- did FBBI get it's name from that or something? 21:56:37 ehird: what? 21:56:43 oerjan: click that page 21:57:01 -!- omniscient_idiot has left (?). 21:57:20 ehird: i know it's alphabetic, what about it? 21:57:53 oerjan: it says "alfabetic" 21:58:22 heh 21:58:42 ehird: sheesh 21:59:35 oh btw sponge generates insanely slow code 22:00:00 what do you expect, scheme doesn't map very well to befunge :-P 22:00:04 "No tail call optimization." <-- ugh 22:00:11 ugh! 22:00:12 that should break lots of stuff 22:00:14 how dare it not be production ready! 22:00:26 ehird, tail call is kind of central to scheme 22:00:26 my corporation depends on scheme->befunge technology! 22:00:37 AnMaster: its a proof of concept. 22:00:44 true 22:00:52 ehird, yet you overreacted on my comment 22:00:58 no, that was sarcasm 22:03:35 Oh man. 22:03:40 I had forgotten how crappy all sodas that aren't Moxie are. 22:03:43 Moxie > * 22:03:45 For * in soda 22:04:17 GregorR, Sodas? You mean fizzy water? 22:04:29 I'm a bit unclear over the English words there 22:04:39 s/over/on/ (maybe) 22:04:51 Yes. 22:04:55 AnMaster: lemonade 22:04:57 soda has varying meanings even within English 22:04:59 GregorR, I dislike any fizzy water 22:05:03 Uh, no, not lemonade >_> 22:05:06 prefer tap water around here at least 22:05:14 good tap water where I live 22:05:16 Fizzy water with flavor :P 22:05:21 I generally don't know what someone is referring to when they say soda even if we're both native english people 22:05:27 worse in the big cities 22:05:29 as different people have different concepts of what it is 22:05:38 GregorR, that is even worse 22:05:39 :( 22:05:47 AnMaster: You just haven't tried Moxie yet :P 22:05:47 meh, "soft drink" 22:06:02 -!- olsner has joined. 22:06:14 Just plain, non-fizzy water, tap water if not too much chlorine in it 22:06:42 I shouldn't have said "yes" to "fizzy water" ... I assumed you meant flavored fizzie water :P 22:06:53 GregorR, well yes that is *way way* worse 22:06:57 We rarely drink plain carbonated water in the US. 22:06:58 tha non-flavored 22:07:10 rm "carbonated "* 22:07:14 Plain carbonated water = gross though :P 22:07:19 add -rf there 22:07:21 GregorR: it's actually kind-of common in the UK 22:07:22 and I like it 22:07:29 ais523: I'm well aware :P 22:07:32 but it's about 100 times more expensive than it ought to be 22:07:42 how can anyone like carbonated *anything*? 22:07:45 ais523: When I was in Prague for a conference they only provided carbonated water during the conference. 22:07:49 and flavoured water? 22:07:55 AnMaster: some people like the taste of carbonic acid 22:07:58 ais523: Which would be fine if carbonated water wasn't so completely gross. 22:08:05 I don't like flavoured water BTW, but I do like lemonade 22:08:08 wtf is "saft" in English 22:08:09 huh 22:08:12 AnMaster: SODA POP. Like Coca-Cola. 22:08:16 that is properly flavoured "water" 22:08:23 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:08:23 from berries and such 22:08:29 GregorR: I've never heard coca-cola described as a soda before 22:08:32 ais523: WTF?! 22:08:43 the word has really different meanings in different places 22:08:47 ARGH REGIONALISMS ARE MAKING MY BRAIN IMPLODE 22:08:48 ais523: Um, coke is the definitive soda. 22:08:49 GregorR, coke is horrible 22:09:11 non-carbonated coke could be ok I guess 22:09:17 *blech* 22:09:27 I'm taking my Moxie-love to some other channel :P 22:09:33 Uncarbonated coke? That's evil. 22:09:39 Just can't stand what carbonated drinks do to my stomach 22:09:41 they mess it up 22:09:43 horribly 22:09:46 Apparently AnMaster has never had flat soda. 22:09:48 and it doesn't even taste any good 22:09:50 Bleck. 22:09:59 pikhq, I prefer tap water 22:10:10 pikhq, unless it have too much chlorine 22:10:26 then non-carbonated bottled water 22:10:29 * oerjan takes another sip of tap water 22:10:40 oerjan, yeah where I live the tap water is very good 22:10:50 much worse when you visit Gothenburg or other big cities 22:11:46 The tap water here is kinda bad. Tastes of chlorine. 22:12:18 pikhq, well when I am at such places I tend to buy non-carbonated water bottled water 22:12:22 which works fairly well 22:12:39 AnMaster: yes, they're known for doing that 22:12:39 hmm... probably liking or disliking carbonic acid is different between different people 22:12:49 ais523, "big cities", "bottles" or? 22:13:05 ais523: carbonated drinks are known for messing up stomachs 22:13:32 Apparently AnMaster has never had flat soda. <-- If I have to drink coke I try to get rid of the fizzyness before drinking 22:13:51 dropping some sugar in the drink tends to help with that 22:13:51 AnMaster, you are demonic. 22:13:52 not sure why 22:14:01 probably nucleation sites or something 22:14:11 (or does that only apply to boiling?) 22:14:28 pikhq, well carbonation is devlishish 22:14:32 which is worse IMO 22:14:49 AnMaster: i think it applies to carbonation too, google the mentos + coke effect 22:15:02 oerjan, ah well I guess that is what happens then 22:15:04 seems reasonable 22:15:11 just be careful 22:15:20 and pour it in slowly 22:15:43 ais523, ? 22:15:50 ais523, who are they? 22:15:56 AnMaster: ?? 22:16:01 AnMaster: yes, they're known for doing that 22:16:03 ais523, "big cities", "bottles" or? 22:16:07 no reply 22:16:08 AnMaster: carbonated drinks 22:16:11 err 22:16:12 what? 22:16:16 ais523, doing what then? 22:16:18 are known for messing up stomachs 22:16:21 ah 22:16:32 ais523, well we had mentioned a lot of stuff in between 22:16:35 so wasn't clear 22:17:14 right 22:17:27 in our city the water authorities occasionally advertise how good and cheap the water is. for some reasons norwegians buy a lot of bottled water despite the tap water often being better 22:17:42 ais523, well also I'd say major cities are known for adding lots of chlorine to tap water 22:17:49 much more than small towns 22:17:59 well, Birmingham tap water is excellent IMO, I don't like the tap water in most of the rest of the UK though 22:18:12 and I think the water's split up by water company here, rather than by city size 22:18:13 ais523, hm how much chlorine is used ther? 22:18:14 there* 22:18:20 not sure, but I can't taste any 22:18:38 oerjan, don't know if you have the word "studiebesök" in NNorwegian but wtf is it in English? 22:18:57 like a school class visiting some industry or such and being shown around 22:19:14 study trip? 22:19:19 oerjan, possibly 22:20:41 or class trip 22:20:46 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 22:20:47 anyway I was on a "studiebesök" to the local vattenverk (water cleaning plant???) years ago. And they said they hardly needed to add any chlorine to the water at all. 22:21:18 coke is awesome 22:21:22 er, not the drug 22:21:34 Moxie > Coca-Cola 22:21:38 ehird, Freudian slip? 22:21:40 ;P 22:21:45 AnMaster: no, just double meaninged words 22:21:45 :P 22:21:51 No, this would be a Freudian slip: 22:21:53 also never hard of moxie 22:21:53 Penis is awesome 22:21:55 Er, Coke 22:21:59 GregorR: Penis is awesome yeah 22:22:00 GregorR, ah right 22:22:00 ... wait what 22:22:13 what does moxie taste like 22:22:14 roughly 22:22:21 GregorR: that's a bit much. what about: Cok is awesome 22:22:21 * AnMaster consider a reverse Freudian slip 22:22:22 like 22:22:24 ehird: I'm told it's similar to bitter root beer, but I don't agree with that. 22:22:27 you meant to say something dirty 22:22:33 but said something innocent instead 22:22:40 I suck coke. 22:22:40 and correct yourself to the dirty one 22:22:44 Daily. 22:22:46 Er, cock. 22:22:52 ehird: I can't equate it to anything else. It's not entirely dissimilar to root beer or coke, but it isn't all that similar to either. 22:22:53 ehird, something like that yeah heheh 22:23:17 Also http://www.baconsalt.com/ 22:23:26 consider 22:23:28 bacon soda. 22:23:42 CONSIDER IT 22:24:02 ehird: no, I don't want to... 22:24:13 whyever not? ! ! ! 22:24:44 * AnMaster agrees with ais523 22:24:49 pfft 22:24:50 ehird: to go with egg and bacon icecream? 22:24:56 oerjan: ... no 22:25:03 oerjan, well yeah obviousl 22:25:06 obviously 22:25:17 oerjan, actually only egg icecream 22:25:19 or snail porridge? 22:25:29 since you get the bacon from the drink 22:25:30 fuck you guys, bacon soda sounds great 22:25:37 AnMaster: alas i think icecream already contains eggs 22:25:40 * GregorR is now strongly considering buying bacon salt :P 22:25:45 GregorR: do it 22:25:46 oerjan, so having bacon in the icecream too would be redundant 22:25:49 oerjan, yes it does 22:25:54 ehird: Everything /should/ taste like bacon ... 22:26:03 GregorR: exactly 22:26:09 what a horrible idea 22:26:11 or chocolate 22:26:15 everything should taste of either bacon or chocolate 22:26:18 bacon chocolate 22:26:19 ehird, try surströmming 22:26:20 and chocolate bacon should taste like amazing 22:26:22 or lutfisk 22:26:22 oerjan: old 22:26:23 :P 22:26:24 done before 22:26:32 AnMaster: No. :P 22:26:36 mm, lutefis 22:26:38 *k 22:26:42 hmm... chocolate bacon soda 22:26:44 ehird, I'm told they taste like bacon :P 22:26:44 FUCK YEAH 22:26:49 AnMaster: Uh-huh. :P 22:27:00 oerjan, I don't actually like either of them, nor bacon 22:27:14 bacon is really a horrible thing to do with meat 22:27:16 IMO 22:27:25 of course there should be bacon with the lutefisk 22:27:32 oerjan, oh? 22:27:37 I can't say I know the details 22:27:50 bacon is horrible?! 22:27:52 how dare you 22:28:18 * ehird revokes AnMaster's humanity license 22:28:20 ehird: AnMaster clearly has no taste :P 22:28:25 GregorR: -buds 22:28:27 ehird, taste is highly subjective 22:28:30 ehird: Doesn't like Coke or bacon? Honestly. 22:28:44 AnMaster: I'm sorry, I can't hear you, because you can't talk, because you're not a human 22:28:52 AnMaster: So is smell, but nobody thinks roses smell like fart :P 22:28:58 ... 22:28:58 i do 22:29:01 (I can't talk, I hate cheese :P ) 22:29:02 GregorR, indeed 22:29:09 would dropping bacon in coke remove the carbonation, i wonder 22:29:12 mmmm cheese 22:29:16 I like cheese 22:29:16 :D 22:29:23 mostly hard, and not soft ones 22:29:38 cheddar is one of my all time favourites btw. 22:29:47 though I like several other ones 22:29:51 yeck cheese 22:29:56 GregorR: there are some medical conditions that cause things to smell differently, i think 22:29:59 ehird, what you don't like cheese!? 22:30:02 how dare you 22:30:09 oerjan: or not at all in some cases 22:30:16 * AnMaster revokes ehird's humanity license 22:30:20 also, I can't eat cheese for medical reasons 22:30:20 ehird: Wait, you don't like cheese either? 22:30:27 GregorR: Nope 22:30:28 ais523, ouch 22:30:29 Not most of the time 22:30:33 ehird: A kindred spirit! :P 22:30:33 at least, not very much 22:30:34 ais523, must really really hurt 22:30:35 I can occasionally 22:30:36 There are some circumstances in which I like it 22:30:42 and I sort of like it, but not all taht much 22:31:48 also garlic rocks 22:31:56 :) 22:32:12 * AnMaster wonders who will agree/disagree on that 22:32:19 mm, garlic 22:32:21 -!- ais523 has changed nick to AntiGarlicMonser. 22:32:23 -!- AntiGarlicMonser has changed nick to AntiGarlicMonste. 22:32:29 monste 22:32:40 why not? 22:32:41 * AnMaster is now know as ThisNickIsWayWayWayTooLon 22:32:53 * oerjan breathes on the AntiGarlicMonste 22:33:01 AnMaster: did you manage to get that to hit the length limit exactly? 22:33:02 * AnMaster joins oerjan 22:33:09 mine seems to hit the limit but it's shorter 22:33:13 AntiGarlicMonste, hm? No 22:33:18 It was just random /me 22:33:20 ah, you just used /action 22:33:27 I should have noticed from the typo 22:33:28 -!- AntiGarlicMonste has changed nick to ais523. 22:33:29 AntiGarlicMonste, did it look the same in your client? 22:33:38 no, different 22:33:44 there were the wrong number of *s at the start 22:33:49 and it was the wrong colour 22:33:54 I just wasn't paying attention 22:33:55 + Nick change: AntiGarlicMonste -> ais523 22:33:58 is what it looks like here 22:34:06 was up until almost 5am the night before last 22:34:08 *** You are now known as ais523. 22:34:19 23:33 AntiGarlicMonste is now known as ais523 22:34:34 ais523, also how can you not like garlic? 22:34:37 and what about ehird? 22:34:39 do you like it? 22:34:42 and GregorR ? 22:34:55 * GregorR reappears. 22:34:55 AnMaster: duh he's a vampire obviously 22:34:56 AnMaster: I'm neutral towards it, I don't eat it all that much 22:34:56 Garlic = awesome. 22:35:02 GregorR: Yeah. 22:35:13 I have actually cooked garlic in a little bit of oil and eaten it just like that. 22:35:13 ais523, hm 22:35:51 And garlic-grilled onions = best food there is that doesn't involve killing animals. 22:35:56 GregorR, try putting a whole garlic (with the shell or whatever the English word is still on) on a bed of salt, then put it in the oven for a while 22:36:17 then you squeeze the stuff out of the garlic when you eat it 22:36:32 AnMaster: Sounds simple enough - next time I happen to have whole garlic I will. 22:36:43 GregorR, don't have the needed time or temperature data around here 22:37:04 GregorR, also it should be coarse sal 22:37:06 salt* 22:37:13 Oh, that complicates things :) 22:37:21 GregorR, what bit? 22:37:23 salt or? 22:37:37 Using rock salt. 22:37:51 GregorR, actually the salt is mostly there to provide some insulation iirc. So using beans or something could work 22:38:37 GregorR, also fresh garlic 22:38:48 not dried 22:38:56 AnMaster: Naturally. 22:39:04 GregorR, that wasn't a problem as it grows just outside the kitchen window 22:39:10 or somewhere around there 22:40:09 GregorR, anyway I shall try to find the recipe sometime soon 22:40:44 oh new topic: vanilla icecream is the best flavour of icecream 22:40:57 Agreed. 22:40:58 * AnMaster pokes ais523 ehird GregorR ^ 22:41:00 oerjan, too ^ 22:41:04 * ais523 runs and hides 22:41:10 ais523, well you disagree? 22:41:14 actually, I like both vanilla and strawberry 22:41:18 ehird, made from fresh vanilla pods! 22:41:23 home made even 22:41:31 AnMaster: It's ice cream, who cares :-P 22:41:39 It's not like it could be _bad_ 22:41:40 the ice cream you find in shops is yuck IMO 22:42:15 i like my ice cream with cheese and onions. 22:42:23 ehird, well yes, kind of, not enough cream in the stuff in shops 22:42:28 oklopol, ew 22:42:36 oklopol: Delicious! 22:42:37 :P 22:42:48 ehird, you said you didn't like cheese 22:42:55 I was joking. 22:42:57 As was oklopol. 22:42:59 ...Probably 22:43:11 who knows when it comes to him indeed 22:43:47 * GregorR reappears. 22:44:10 REAL Vanilla ice cream is the best, yes. That being said, I don't like ice cream any more, but that's part of my progressive dislike of dairy products. 22:44:20 GregorR, milk rocks 22:44:22 IMO 22:44:26 Is it purely an American thing that companies market no-flavor ice cream as "vanilla"? 22:44:31 GregorR, no 22:44:48 Damn. 22:44:58 It's usually better when only America is stupid :P 22:45:13 I like all ice cream, really. How can you not? 22:46:31 I never liked milk, then I stopped liking cheese, then I stopped liking yogurt, then milk chocolate, now ice cream. Next up on my progressive dairy-hatred would probably be sour cream if I had to venture a guess. 22:46:33 GregorR, when I mean ice cream I mean *home made* icecream 22:46:44 GregorR, from real vanilla yes 22:46:44 AnMaster: We don't home-make stuff in the US :P 22:47:03 GregorR, well my mom is a gardening geek or something like that 22:47:06 so we do it a lot 22:47:13 AnMaster: Fyi, there's not actually enough of a difference in taste to call them separate things, it's just pretension :-P 22:47:17 Not that there's anything wrong with pretension 22:47:31 ehird, there is a differ in taste on the real stuff 22:47:36 " Is it purely an American thing that companies market no-flavor ice cream as "vanilla"?" 22:47:40 Everything differs in taste. 22:47:43 that is the problem you had 22:48:06 really a majority of the ice cream you can buy is like that 22:48:18 use fresh vanilla pods when you make your icecream! 22:48:31 YES SIR 22:48:35 or if you can't find that, at least dried vanilla pods 22:48:49 avoid the "vanilla flavoured sugar" stuff 22:48:50 Teeeeen-SHUN! 22:50:06 * oerjan shuns the teens 22:50:33 hey! 22:51:18 oerjan, wait around 1 year and 2 months with that 22:51:26 then I'm fine with it 22:51:42 * oerjan now wonders who else isn't a teen here. GregorR and ais523 maybe? 22:51:52 in here now 22:51:55 or in here at all? 22:51:59 for at all: 22:52:00 oerjan: I'm 21 22:52:05 lament is 20-something i think 22:52:05 actually 1 year, 2 months and sizeof(October) - 9 22:52:06 calamari is...31? 22:52:07 to be exact 22:52:16 dbc is... i dunno, 2x-3x 22:52:19 1 December is my bday 22:52:21 fizzie is.. i dunno 22:52:26 ehird: 25. 22:52:28 Deewiant is 2x, iirc 22:52:35 ... really, we should be counting the teens 22:52:38 not the non-teens 22:52:42 oh, psygnisfive is 21 22:52:46 almost 19 22:52:49 :/ 22:52:52 22. 22:53:08 let's instead count the teens 22:53:13 hm i had the impression the teens were the majority :D 22:53:23 ehird: i occasionally put clue cheese on my ice cream, other than that, i guess i wasn't serious; then again, i don't eat ice cream that often. 22:53:24 oerjan: Maybe they're just noisy. :p 22:53:27 oerjan is probably 648 22:53:33 AnMaster: bsmntbombdood comex oklopol pikhq 22:53:35 and me 22:53:37 ais523: and a haf 22:53:39 i think that's all the teens 22:53:50 oerjan: ah, good guess then on my part 22:53:52 * ehird examines newbies 22:54:00 how old is pikhq? 22:54:03 exactly I mean 22:54:04 Asztal: oc2k1: Jiminy_Cricket: DarkPants: how old are you 22:54:06 ehird: thutubot is only a year or so old, possibly less 22:54:07 AnMaster: 17 iirc 22:54:10 ais523: :) 22:54:14 ah 22:54:26 hmm... I wonder if cmeme's a teen? 22:54:27 ehird, olsner? 22:54:28 or clog? 22:54:33 ais523: har har 22:54:35 AnMaster: not sur 22:54:36 e 22:54:43 but really, when would they have been created? 22:54:45 fungot's almost two months old, but I have no idea what that makes in "funge-bot years". 22:54:45 fizzie: it's from an amiga demo. ;p 22:54:50 IRC's been around for a while 22:55:05 fizzie, could you plot the age distribution or something 22:55:09 should be fairly interesting 22:55:22 Too much work to pick up the numbers here. 22:55:35 (and I noted you down as the statistician here, since you tend to make good graphs :P) 22:55:41 and logbots are an obvious thing to do with it 22:55:41 and bye ehird 22:55:45 (and diagrams) 22:55:52 ais523, leaving already? 22:56:18 why should anyone answer..... 22:56:19 as I was saying 22:56:21 er 22:56:23 bye ais523 22:56:27 anyway the ones i listed are definitely teens 22:56:31 hm 22:56:33 well maybe oklopol had a birthday 22:56:39 oc2k1, for statistics? 22:56:42 oc2k1: Why shouldn't they? 22:56:46 ehird: no. 22:56:52 and what ehird said 22:56:56 AnMaster: no, ehird did 22:56:58 it's just that I'm the only person who can tell as we're on the same bouncer 22:57:01 oc2k1: don't answer, you'll lose your mystery 22:57:02 except that neither ehird nor me will respond to pings when offline 22:57:02 Oh, right. If you reveal your age we'll see if you're young enough, track down your address, and stalk & rape you 22:57:05 am i rite 22:57:12 If you need a statistic fake one :P 22:57:59 ais523, I did whois on both of you 22:58:03 and didn't see anything 22:58:12 thutubot's still using 95% of my CPU by the way 22:58:13 like away message or such 22:58:15 just to count to 64 22:58:23 ais523, insane 22:58:24 and no, but /ctcp ping gives it away 22:58:24 :D 22:58:31 there's no response if we're offline 22:58:35 ais523, yet it haven't timed out? 22:58:35 and there is if we're online 22:58:37 seems strange... 22:58:42 or is it threaded? 22:59:04 that is strange 22:59:17 very strange in fact 22:59:30 heh, it timed out hours ago 22:59:38 ais523, it is connected here.. 22:59:38 but is still doing the calculation 22:59:44 yes, that's the other strange part 22:59:52 it's not receiving messages from Freenode any more though 22:59:53 ais523, it was the strange part I meant 23:00:06 ais523, wonderful. Probably hyperion being buggy 23:00:13 MY NAME IS X=Z 23:00:13 let me C-c it now 23:00:15 and see what happens 23:00:15 ais523, also how can count to 64 be so hard? 23:00:16 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:00:20 err 23:00:21 wtf :P 23:00:22 AnMaster: because 23:00:24 perfect! 23:00:25 its interpreting underload 23:00:26 in thutu 23:00:29 (a string rewriting language) 23:00:32 or was 23:00:32 ah 23:00:42 AnMaster's wtf is at why Freenode hadn't booted it off 23:00:49 AnMaster: ais523, also how can count to 64 be so hard? 23:00:49 although it hadn't responded to pings for hours 23:00:51 nor said anything 23:00:53 ^ that is what i responded to 23:00:57 ah, ok 23:00:57 freenode's boots are in the wash 23:01:00 ais523, and why it disconnected at ctrl-c 23:01:06 and yes ais523 is correct 23:01:34 ais523, and yes on freenode just being active on the socket is enough 23:01:40 but if you weren't that either... 23:01:41 huh 23:02:01 freenode had stopped sending data 23:02:10 ais523, yes that is even more strange 23:02:15 why wasn't it disconnected 23:02:25 though... hyperion is buggy 23:02:47 ehird: 22 23:03:06 wonder who the oldest one here is 23:03:09 what sort of floating point is the floating point numbers in scheme btw? 23:03:11 double? 23:03:13 so far, calamari @ 31 23:03:25 ehird, what about oerjan ? 23:03:29 oh 23:03:30 rite 23:03:33 oerjan is like 35 23:03:35 yes? 23:03:53 rite? Some "comming-of-age rite"? 23:03:54 or what? 23:03:56 ;P 23:04:23 38 23:04:29 ehird: how old are you? 23:04:31 oerjan, poor you 23:04:35 Asztal, he is 13 23:04:36 Asztal: 13 since August. 23:04:41 probably youngest here 23:04:42 wb ais523 23:04:45 AnMaster: no, asie 23:04:46 don't know for sure 23:04:47 is 10 or 11 23:04:56 ! 23:05:01 ehird, haven't seen asie iirc? 23:05:05 AnMaster: asiekierka 23:05:06 whatever 23:05:08 ah 23:05:21 ehird, that explains a lot about him/her ;P 23:05:44 how old was oerjan? 23:05:45 quite. 23:05:46 I missed that bit 23:05:47 ais523: 38 23:07:12 wb 23:22:42 question: do you prefer top-down or bottom-up design when programming? 23:23:56 top-up or bottom-down 23:24:01 middle-out 23:24:10 ehird, how do they work? 23:24:22 i actually do more like top-middle-down 23:24:29 i.e. i do both at the same time converging on middle 23:24:41 ehird, ah hm. 23:24:42 occasionally stretching the abstraction boundry higher or lower each side 23:24:44 interesting 23:24:55 i just code what feels like needs to be coded now, really 23:24:55 quite a lot like how I do it 23:25:05 rapid incremental development means it basically just evolves while I use i t 23:25:42 ehird, yes same, however... top-down makes creating abstractions much easier 23:26:00 AnMaster: I have a text editor and can refine code using its functionality. 23:26:05 ehird, same 23:26:06 I hear the new buzzword for that nowadays is "refactoring". 23:26:07 but still 23:27:37 Huh. Google resell eNom domain names if you say you don't own a domain in google apps setup. 23:27:47 eNom? 23:28:07 http://enom.com 23:28:11 23:28:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENom 23:28:17 enom nom nom 23:28:21 bye ais523 23:35:08 night 23:35:38 bye. 23:46:18 ehird : <3 23:48:30 ::licks ehirds cheek:: 23:51:36 woof! 23:52:11 Let's gang bang ehird 23:52:17 no. 23:52:43 Let's tag team ehird 23:52:49 Let's tag system ehird 23:52:56 Let's pop his stack 23:53:08 Let's curry his variables 23:53:32 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 2008-10-10: 00:02:07 yeah totally 00:05:15 -!- slereah has joined. 00:05:49 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 00:27:51 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 00:41:32 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:41:45 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:49:11 guys: 00:49:15 head grammars are interesting 00:49:31 head? 00:50:03 a kind of grammar for handling the notion that phrases are headed 00:50:15 and that deeeeeply nested structures can be headed by things way down in them 00:51:18 for instance a verb phrase is really a phrase built around a verb 00:51:30 atleast in natural language syntax 00:51:54 but the kind of grammar, a head-driven grammar, is pretty cool 00:53:56 it basically works like this: you have a pair, like 00:53:59 the first is a string of words 00:54:13 the second is an index specifying which of those words is the head 00:54:20 so in this case, w3 is the head 00:54:53 to get the deeply nested headedness you'd use a function like so: 00:55:21 LC1(,) := 00:55:51 this is a left-branching construction, which says that you can take a phrase 00:56:37 and "project" the head further up (that is, extend the phrase headed by s[i]) with some other phrase 00:56:50 by adjoining on the right, and producing the phrase 00:56:51 * dbc is 30 00:56:58 someone was asking 00:57:37 but because all of this stuff is indexed and so on you can do cool stuff 00:57:48 like move a head outside of its phrase 00:58:15 ouch! decapitation 00:58:25 dbc: yeah, first we were trying to work out the non-teens in here but then we realised there were more non-teens than teens 00:58:28 so we just worked out the teens instead 00:58:51 Front() := 00:58:58 dbc: btw your sunwait is down 01:01:27 Thanks. I think I knew that but I forgot to take down the link. 01:22:37 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 01:23:28 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:23:28 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:23:37 -!- moozilla has joined. 01:26:55 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 01:28:07 -!- slereah has joined. 01:28:39 oh, something else thats apparently used frequently with head grammars is something like... whats called head wrapping: 01:29:22 RL2(, ) := 01:30:15 which they use to do shit like "taller than Sandy" is taken to be a constituent in sentences like "Kim is a much taller person than Sandy" 01:30:16 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:30:46 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:30:55 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:30:57 -!- slereah has joined. 01:31:06 MADNESS 01:31:12 and you get this discontinuity by headwrapping: RL2(, ) == 01:31:27 tho really it should 01:31:31 but whatever :p 01:32:19 i wonder if something like this could be used in programming languages. its a queer but interesting kind of grammar 01:32:53 i suppose its a sort of unrestricted grammar, since it involves arbitrary sorts of rearrangement of elements 01:41:07 Later 01:41:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 01:52:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | lol. 02:28:33 -!- ihope has joined. 02:29:03 Let's come up with random Thue sublanguages and try to figure out whether they're Turing-complete or not. 02:34:05 * ihope goes to random.org 02:37:02 CGA ::= AA; CA ::= CAC; ACA ::= CC 02:37:06 Probably not. 02:38:43 lol 03:39:31 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:10:01 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:11:06 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:54:15 oh guys 05:54:21 Tree Adjoining Grammars = cool 06:11:08 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 06:29:59 -!- asiekierka has joined. 06:30:00 Hi 06:30:21 ^rot13 optbot 06:30:21 bcgobg 06:30:22 asiekierka: as do I.. suprised he didn't tell anyone else 06:30:32 ^rot13 bcgobg 06:30:32 optbot 06:30:33 fungot: there was a ", but" missing there, so I figured it might be deliberate 06:30:33 optbot: just that i spend way too much. 06:30:34 fungot: in terms of being terse 06:30:34 optbot: i'm going with this? it goes against my ' never meeting neither suffering' rule. 06:30:35 fungot: I'm kidding ;) 06:30:35 optbot: help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen 06:30:35 fungot: I have a huge text file called "INTEL 80386 PROGRAMMER'S REFERENCE MANUAL 1986" 06:30:36 optbot: memory allocation is explicitly ignored in the spec 06:30:36 fungot: 's some room 06:31:05 heh 06:31:08 heh. heh heh 06:31:09 heheheh 06:32:46 lmfao 06:32:51 are you masturbating with bots? 06:33:14 threesome with a program? 06:33:20 programs, even! 06:33:41 That would be interesting 06:34:36 no, i'm bored 06:34:41 yeah 06:34:43 and wondering how to interface with the irc protocol 06:34:47 so you're playing with yourself and with two bots 06:34:49 in BackFlip 06:34:57 or no 06:34:57 wait 06:34:58 its very homoebotic 06:34:59 Modular SNUSP 07:32:12 i'm definitely not a sinister whereabouts register 07:32:46 is asiekierka robosexual? 07:34:53 http://www.coverville.com/archives/2008/10/take_on_me_lite.html 07:35:02 im oklosexual 07:35:04 :O 07:46:55 that was fun 07:47:23 is that the actual video, but different lyrics? ...or was the pipe wrench part by any chance added? 07:47:39 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 07:47:53 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 07:49:01 the whole video is original 07:49:05 the music's been covered over 07:50:18 right, after reading "literal cover", that's quite obvious 07:50:33 pipe wrench fight :D 07:51:12 i've only seen part of that vid in family guy 07:52:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hmm. 07:59:33 optbot! 07:59:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | try wxmaxima. 07:59:45 wwwhhat? 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:16 optbot! wxmaxima 08:01:17 psygnisfive: ooh wait a complication - if some letter of a cycle is duplicated, you don't need to use swap for that cycle 08:23:34 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:36:17 -!- Mony has joined. 08:37:28 plop 08:45:43 plop! 08:51:12 * Jiminy_Cricket implodes 08:51:35 -!- ab5tract has joined. 08:55:47 -!- ab5tract has quit. 09:55:47 FUCK 09:58:18 foxtrot uniform charlie kilo 10:20:31 :DDDDDDDD 10:20:49 i'm so happy 10:20:58 i ain't a care in the world 10:32:51 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("So, how much do you love noodles?"). 11:04:05 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:00:24 -!- jix has joined. 12:38:16 Guys, let's make a Candlejack themed esol 12:51:00 * oerjan thinks that would be seriously awkward to program in 12:55:11 I think we could recommend it for IRP use, however. 12:55:56 candlejack? 12:56:05 yes. 12:56:40 moron says what? 12:57:29 of course although it's the first time i hear of it, it's probably a dead horse trope^Wmeme already. 13:00:42 what? 13:01:48 also, you already broke it in your first message above 13:02:07 ...what? 13:02:26 * oerjan swats oklopol ----### 13:02:59 have you joined a swat team recently or something? 13:04:19 since your mentioning the name had no effect, i can only conclude that you must be the villain yourself 13:05:20 i am so tired. 13:05:22 sooooo tired 13:06:50 jandlecack 13:07:30 * oerjan watches in horror as ehird is nidkapped 13:09:17 of course _someone_ had to have had that idea before 13:52:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | OTOH it makes it considerably harder to create virtual temporary variables. 13:53:14 virtually impossible, in fact 13:58:10 oh god it's easy to crack me up 13:58:51 that's because you are tired 13:59:01 well-known phenomenon 13:59:28 yes. 13:59:38 true things. 13:59:45 quiiiiiite quitesss... 13:59:53 gollum 14:00:00 RAAAAAAAAAAA 14:02:40 * oerjan wonders if there is a fundamental entropy obstacle to cheaply extracting CO2 from the atmosphere 14:03:32 is there a bot with a language with a random() functerion 14:03:38 here 14:03:40 now 14:03:45 hmm 14:03:56 fungot: what do you know? 14:03:57 There's fungot, written in Befunge, which has the ?. 14:03:57 oklopol: i mean " gives the correct results" but it should be 14:03:57 fizzie: you can write portable scheme if you wanted 14:04:00 !help 14:04:03 ^help 14:04:03 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 14:04:08 There's that 14:04:09 ^bool 14:04:09 No. 14:04:13 oh 14:04:14 command that I haven't yet added to help. 14:04:14 cool 14:04:24 ^bool 14:04:24 No. 14:04:26 ^bool 14:04:26 No. 14:04:28 ^bool 14:04:28 No. 14:04:30 ^bool 14:04:30 No. 14:04:33 fungot: Don't be so negative. 14:04:34 fizzie: it is the tarpit winner :) i'll have none of that 14:04:39 ^bool 14:04:40 No. 14:04:41 ^bool 14:04:42 Yes. 14:04:44 okay 14:04:53 so a uniform prng 14:05:16 Should I watch another charming episode of friends? 14:05:17 that didn't look overly uniform to me 14:05:18 ^bool 14:05:18 Yes. 14:05:22 Okay. 14:05:28 wlel 14:05:29 oklopol: you can still /msg lambdabot 14:05:29 well 14:05:34 actually i'm pretty tired 14:05:47 Are you absolutely sure? 14:05:48 ^bool 14:05:49 No. 14:05:52 It should be uniform. 14:05:52 and its @dice command 14:05:54 v 14:05:54 "bool" >?>0".oN" 61g:3+61p3P> ^ 14:05:57 >17G0"loob"Q!|>0".seY" 61g:4+61p3P^ 14:06:11 Then I ask again: Should I watch another episode? 14:06:12 ^bool 14:06:13 No. 14:06:17 thought so. 14:06:20 night all 14:06:31 oerjan: lambdabot is so mainstream, i don't wanna use it 14:06:38 heh 14:06:49 well as long as you need only binary choices... 14:12:28 "The theoretically required energy for air capture is only slightly more than for capture from point sources." 14:12:53 so no to my entropy question i guess 14:18:05 oklopol: 14:18:06 DONT GO 14:40:33 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 14:42:49 Hm has anyone considered using radix trees for representing Funge-Space? 14:44:20 hm probably wouldn't work well 15:46:55 -!- Asztal^_^ has joined. 15:49:58 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:50:05 -!- Asztal^_^ has changed nick to Asztal. 16:14:24 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 16:17:36 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:19:19 yo ais523 16:21:30 ^bool 16:21:30 Yes. 16:21:40 That should be "True" or "False" ... 16:21:45 I mean, it's an isomorphism, but still. 16:22:10 hi ehird 16:22:38 GregorR: Shorter to write. 16:22:40 in Befunge/Brainfuck. 16:22:42 Whichever it is. 16:22:44 Wait. 16:22:46 has to be befunge 16:32:33 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:32:56 -!- Asztal^_^ has joined. 16:33:03 -!- Asztal^_^ has changed nick to Asztal. 16:33:09 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:33:17 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:34:13 ehird: i had already gone. 16:35:11 AnMaster: what would the radices be? 16:39:31 oklopol, row followed by column I guess 16:39:42 except yes it doesn't work well when you have two values 16:39:43 like tha 16:39:44 that* 17:15:56 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:24:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2008_main_page_redesign_proposal#88wolfmaster Ain't broke don't fix it. 17:28:21 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:28:56 Is Modular SNUSP a good lang for an ircbot 17:29:53 Hmm? 17:30:02 I don't know 17:30:05 it looks interesting 17:30:14 Also, how do you implement the IRC protocol, any good documents on that 17:30:16 it's sort of BF-like, and BF isn't that bad 17:30:17 other than the RFC 17:30:20 Yeah 17:30:37 really the only thing a bot needs to be able to do is send the logon sequence 17:30:38 asiekierka: The RFC. 17:30:39 and respond to pings 17:30:45 normally you want it to respond to PRIVMSG too 17:30:48 i said Other than the RFC :P 17:30:51 asiekierka: Tough. 17:30:53 Why not the RFC? 17:30:57 I mean the logon sequence 17:30:59 It's not hard to read. 17:31:01 i can't get it from the RFC 17:31:01 :P 17:31:05 Everything else, sure 17:31:08 and responding to pings 17:31:10 Yes you can. 17:31:16 The RFC includes documentation of the logon sequence. 17:31:17 Right there. 17:32:26 Which RFC 17:32:34 asiekierka: i suggest you ggl an irc bot if you want an easy way out. 17:32:40 anyway, the logon sequence is: 17:32:44 PASS password 17:32:44 asiekierka: http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/rfc/rfc.html. 17:32:47 NICK nickname 17:32:52 yes 17:32:53 USER hostname x x :Real Name 17:32:54 Read it. 17:32:57 where the xs are ignored 17:33:01 three lines 17:33:04 you also probably want 17:33:04 yes, and just remember to put a \r\n after all messages. 17:33:06 JOIN #esoteric 17:33:10 i see 17:33:12 So 17:33:15 ais523: Please, don't spoonfeed him. 17:33:19 PASS \r\n 17:33:20 before doing join, you have to wait for the motd to finish 17:33:25 oklopol: no you don't 17:33:26 Too many times he has said "How can I get info about X, apart from the definitive source about X>" 17:33:28 asiekierka: nonono 17:33:33 Freenode will queue it up otherwise 17:33:35 So just _let him read the RFC_ 17:33:44 asiekierka: you can just skip the pass 17:33:48 ehird: he won't read it 17:33:57 oklopol: Sure. 17:33:59 Maybe he won't. 17:34:01 nothing wrong with spoonfeeding something like this imo :\ 17:34:11 But then we have to tell him every detail of IRC all the way through. 17:34:13 And that's ridiculous. 17:34:19 We'd just end up copypasting the RFC. 17:34:37 oh 17:34:37 ok 17:34:38 i found it 17:34:41 i checked the wrong RFC 17:34:42 T_T 17:35:29 ais523: okay you don't need to wait for it, but 17:35:38 you need to pong the ping that comes in the middle of the motd 17:35:43 well 17:35:54 oklopol: you have a few seconds to do that 17:35:55 no 17:35:56 also, you mean USER username x x :Realname 17:35:56 you don't 17:35:57 or is it before. 17:35:58 freenode ignores pings 17:35:59 and you can pong it after the JOIN 17:36:01 you can never ping, ever 17:36:03 and it's fine 17:36:08 asiekierka: well, yes 17:36:10 and yes, asiekierka 17:36:12 the username part of the hostname 17:36:15 asiekierka: 17:36:16 hmm 17:36:17 i just do this 17:36:22 the xs would imply the other parts, but no sane server trusts those 17:36:22 USER nick nick nick :Realname 17:36:24 it works fine 17:36:32 USER nick * * :realname will work fine too yeah 17:36:37 ehird: the second and third arguments to USER are ignored by all sane ircds 17:36:40 yes 17:36:41 So i could just make a module outputting AsieBot in ModularSNUSP 17:36:51 and do it 3 times 17:37:04 are you saying just sending "NICK smth\r\nUSER smth smth smth :smth\r\nJOIN #esoteric\r\n" gets a bot on this channel? 17:37:38 * oklopol tests 17:37:53 Yeah, but first, lemme install cygwin@netcat. urgh. 17:37:58 oklopol: yes, it does 17:38:09 yaay 17:39:12 Wow, it's easy 17:39:28 And then you set up a loop for message receiving, and that's all!? 17:39:29 asiekierka, you may need to respond to ping before the login finished 17:39:37 asiekierka: yes 17:39:42 wow 17:39:45 you need to be able to respond to pings quickly, though 17:39:46 several ircds use that on an early stage to test someone isn't abusing a http proxy 17:39:50 AnMaster: yes, but that's based on time 17:39:54 ais523, hm? 17:39:56 so as long as you reply to the ping fast enough 17:39:58 Ooooh. 17:40:02 ais523, yes and with the right message 17:40:02 it doesn't matter if you send other messages first 17:40:05 PING 17:40:06 -!- smthcoolbot has joined. 17:40:09 PONG 17:40:11 okay 17:40:13 oh 17:40:23 this network is a bit more bot-friendly than qnet. 17:40:25 what I mean is, you can send a login sequence 17:40:29 and then reply to the ping 17:40:35 oklopol, but they plan to change ircd soon 17:40:41 so doing it properly is important 17:40:50 in quakenet, you absolutely have to pong the one ping @ startup. 17:40:56 ais523, and sure, that is what I do 17:41:02 oklopol, yes 17:41:03 AnMaster: who plans to? 17:41:08 fn? 17:41:08 you have to on many ircds 17:41:10 oklopol, freenode yes 17:41:24 yeah, well that would be nice, i would be right, retroactively. 17:41:24 oklopol, they agree hyperion suck. They plan something based on charybdis 17:41:53 i have no idea what those are, well, i wouldn't have known without context 17:42:13 oklopol, ircds 17:42:15 /^PING (.*)=x/--PONG $1=r=n=x/ 17:42:21 is the relevant line from Thutubot 17:42:22 AnMaster: yes, i had the context 17:42:23 nice and simple 17:42:29 ais523, interesting regex dialect 17:42:36 can't read it 17:42:36 (the -- is a marker, it gets removed later) 17:42:44 AnMaster: not at all, those are straightforward Perl regexen 17:42:47 ais523, the = stuff? 17:42:55 it's just that Thutu puts interesting stuff in the string the regexen match 17:43:09 =x is used to control I/O, for instance 17:43:26 ais523, They are Thutu commands? 17:43:38 well, Thutu commands are different 17:43:44 but if there's an =x in the string at the end of the program 17:43:49 everything before it is output to stdout 17:43:51 and the program restarts 17:43:58 with =r and =n being replaced by \r and \n 17:44:09 ais523, restarts? Yet the bot stays connected? 17:44:22 AnMaster: the program doesn't exit and load again 17:44:26 it's like there's a loop around the program 17:44:31 hm 17:44:39 it's something like while ($_ =~ /=9/) 17:44:41 in the Perl source 17:44:46 installing cygwin 17:45:16 And looking for a final decision on a esolang for my ircbot 17:46:22 o 17:46:30 o 17:46:52 ais523, if the program is restarted, what about state? 17:46:52 ooko 17:46:55 Lol i'm an botol ;) 17:47:01 AnMaster: everything after the =x 17:47:03 is preserved 17:47:07 so you can keep state that way 17:47:16 you can't keep it any other way though 17:47:20 ais523, also what paradigm is Thutu? String rewriting is my best guess 17:47:25 But I'm far from sure 17:47:26 yes, rewriting 17:47:36 with a few imperative control structures 17:47:41 rewriting is how it stores data 17:47:45 rather than how it does program flow 17:47:51 What is smthcoolbot running on 17:48:10 my guess is someone typing into netcat by hand 17:48:26 COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD 17:48:31 hmm 17:48:33 How he's responding to PINGs 17:48:34 cool 17:48:34 COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD 17:48:50 asiekierka: by typing the PONG by hand? 17:48:54 also, freenode's nice 17:48:58 it gives you a minute or so to respond 17:48:58 yeah 17:49:01 i see 17:49:04 nice, i can just connect, and write the bot loop on the fly. 17:49:05 wait 17:49:06 a MINUTE 17:49:06 and it doesn't care about typos in the PONG return string 17:49:12 yes, an entire minute 17:49:20 most ircds aren't nearly as lenient 17:49:21 That gives enough time for my 100mhz laptop to do it! 17:49:25 also it doesn't send you pings if you're active 17:49:30 I wonder if i could do a dual-pipe 17:49:32 as in 17:49:50 My 100mhz laptop->parallel/serial cable->netcat->parallel/serial cable->My 100mhz laptop... 17:49:50 even without ponging, you can stay up for about a day 17:49:55 :D 17:49:55 ais523, normally ping time out is something like 30-200 seconds 17:49:58 so yeah it's a bit more than a minute. 17:50:10 Which is why i'm not pinging out from here so much 17:50:16 my internet fails at pings 17:50:17 oklopol, As long as you send something else on freenode 17:50:31 oklopol, Freenode only cares the socket is active, not what you send 17:50:45 most other ircds require you to do it properly 17:50:49 AnMaster: i once had ~15 bots here, all dead 17:50:51 for about a day 17:51:04 then they suddenly pinged out 17:51:07 * ais523 looks at the source of Thutubot, to try to prevent people crashing it with infiniloops 17:51:33 Aw :( 17:51:44 What does thutubot do? 17:51:50 emulate underload 17:51:52 and run on irc 17:51:54 all in Thutu 17:52:04 ais523, make it count to two 17:52:10 if 64 is too much 17:52:11 Didn't we use to have a bot that ran many esolangs? 17:52:15 Egobot or such 17:52:16 yes, we did 17:52:18 it was EgoBot 17:52:24 hasn't been here for ages though 17:52:38 What happened to him? Kidnapped by ninjas? 17:52:57 Slereah_, depended on an unportable and no longer maintained library that did strange low level stuff 17:53:00 iirc 17:53:09 Oh. 17:53:12 to suspend processes to disk or something like that 17:53:21 i remember a discussion on that 17:53:26 from this year 17:53:26 Slereah_, I planned writing one in erlang 17:53:39 that would use processes in erlangish way 17:53:48 asiekierka, yes, that was what I were referring to 17:53:52 ehird tried to get it working 17:53:54 but gave up 17:54:23 IIRC it did strange stuff with assuming what registers setjmp/longjmp used in certain ways 17:54:27 or something like that 17:54:29 *shudder* 17:55:22 Yay, Melab made another page :D 17:55:43 asiekierka, still I think Taxi is a good choice for an irc bot 17:55:47 it got string handling too 17:56:04 asiekierka, what language did you select? 17:56:09 "This language is called Bit logic because it mainly uses logic symbols and binary/hexadecimal notation for commands." 17:56:10 Still deciding 17:56:12 How very specitif 17:56:14 specific 17:57:09 asiekierka, example: "Crime Lab tests if all dropped off string passengers are equal to each other, if so returns 1 passenger with the value, otherwise no passenger is returned, non-string is an error" 17:57:19 http://www.bigzaphod.org/taxi/ 17:57:55 oh 17:57:59 asiekierka, remember you need to make money 17:58:03 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Taxi 17:58:03 too 17:58:21 asiekierka, iirc there is some RPN calculator coded in it even 17:58:31 ah yes http://www.bigzaphod.org/taxi/calc.nick_turner.txt 17:59:03 If you ride to the Post Office for a string, for example, "PING abc\r\n" what would i get? 17:59:07 "PING","abc" 17:59:10 "PING abc\r\n"? 17:59:12 Or what? 17:59:29 asiekierka, download it and check? 17:59:39 "Post Office drop off string passengers to print to stdout, pickup a passenger to read a string line from stdin" 17:59:44 that seems pretty clear to me 18:00:00 oki 18:00:11 Actually 18:00:15 Taxi seems to be the best choice 18:00:21 mainly because i can print out the map and use it 18:00:38 asiekierka, another idea: RUBE 18:00:39 maybe 18:00:50 nope, Taxi decided 18:00:52 a taxibot 18:01:11 aw 18:01:13 rube would be better 18:01:42 "passengers dropped off at Riverview Bridge seem to always fall over the side and into the river thus the driver collects no pay, but at least the pesky passenger is gone " :D 18:02:07 nononono, i don't want rube 18:02:12 wh y not 18:02:18 rubebot would be cool 18:02:18 COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD 18:02:24 and easy to confuse with rubybot 18:02:28 which iirc exist 18:02:35 ok now what is that silly bot 18:02:38 smthcoolbot? 18:02:39 COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD 18:02:40 smthcoolbot: Hi oklopol 18:02:40 COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD 18:02:48 AnMaster: It's by oklopol obviously. 18:02:50 smthcoolbot: What are you written in 18:02:50 COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD 18:02:51 really? 18:02:56 It is horrible 18:02:56 AnMaster: Yes. 18:02:58 IMO 18:02:59 No. 18:03:09 I wonder which place in Taxi can split a string, "PING agjg" into "PING" and "agjg" 18:03:15 -!- thutubot has joined. 18:03:18 +hello 18:03:18 Hello, ais523! 18:03:22 right, ignore on that smthcoolbot 18:03:22 COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD 18:03:25 +ul (:^):^ 18:03:25 oklopol: whats smthcoolbot bot written in 18:03:25 COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD 18:03:33 +hello 18:03:33 Hello, ais523! 18:03:33 Also, AnMaster 18:03:35 yay 18:03:36 you're being an idiot 18:03:39 it only talks when someone pings it 18:03:40 +ul (:aSS):aSS 18:03:40 (:aSS):aSS 18:03:41 smthcoolbot: 18:03:41 COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD 18:03:45 ehird, or when someone says "cool" 18:03:45 COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD 18:03:47 I prevented it being broken by infiniloops 18:03:50 anywhere in the line 18:03:56 rubebot would be cool 18:03:56 COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD 18:03:56 COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD 18:03:56 COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD 18:03:58 +ul (:*):* 18:04:00 see? 18:04:08 asiekierka: that has no output commands in 18:04:11 Whatever. 18:04:12 so it isn't going to do anything 18:04:17 uh, wait 18:04:21 * ais523 ignores smthcoolbot 18:04:21 COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD 18:04:25 +ul (:*^):*^ 18:04:28 hmm? 18:04:30 asiekierka: neither does that 18:04:30 so oklopol 18:04:31 output is S 18:04:34 what's smthcoolbot written in 18:04:34 COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD 18:04:37 well 18:04:41 i want to test something 18:04:45 +ull (as)S 18:04:48 oklopol, and can you make it only speak when it's *full name* is mentioned 18:04:49 +ul (as)S 18:04:49 as 18:04:52 Ok 18:04:52 not when someone says cool 18:04:52 COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD 18:04:53 +ul ((x)S:^):^ 18:04:54 yes you did fix it 18:04:58 +ul (as)S 18:05:01 oh wait 18:05:02 yeah 18:05:04 you did not? 18:05:04 AnMaster: its obviously a test bot, idiot 18:05:07 +hello 18:05:08 nobody makes a whole bot just for that 18:05:08 or did you 18:05:17 but e.g. my bots always do stuf like that while im getting them running 18:05:18 ehird, not even oklopol? 18:05:20 ok, it seems to be relatively crashed 18:05:27 AnMaster: oklopol isn't an idiot 18:05:34 ehird, indeed, but he is strange. 18:05:45 you said as much yourself several times 18:05:45 He is not an idiot. 18:05:48 agreed 18:06:10 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:07:39 oklopol: ping 18:08:21 -!- thutubot has joined. 18:09:27 +ul (:aSS):aSS 18:09:27 (:aSS):aSS 18:09:32 +ul (:^):^ 18:09:39 +ul (:aSS):aSS 18:09:39 (:aSS):aSS 18:09:41 boring :( 18:09:49 +ul ((x)S:^):^ 18:09:50 No, i can't find it! 18:09:53 Augh! 18:09:57 asiekierka, find what? 18:10:07 +ul (:aSS):aSS 18:10:11 Except the Chop Suey, you can't split strings! 18:10:14 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:10:27 asiekierka, hm and? 18:10:32 oh well 18:10:46 asiekierka, if you didn't want an esolang, don't use one 18:11:14 i did 18:11:16 it'll be just hard 18:11:36 asiekierka, Ok, I agree the fuel stuff will be hard 18:11:55 What about pingparsing 18:11:56 :P 18:11:57 Rube got much worse string handling, but otherwise it should work well 18:12:16 Because the fuel stuff can be done with "dummy passengers" 18:12:22 Get 2 passengers, like "A" and "B" 18:12:24 asiekierka, split string up, compare each char, taking branches as needed. Then rebuild strings 18:12:29 oh 18:12:36 -!- thutubot has joined. 18:12:41 +ul (:aSS):aSS 18:12:41 {{:aSS}}:aSS 18:12:46 ASS 18:12:49 ugh, that shouldn't have happened 18:12:51 +quit 18:12:51 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 18:13:04 asiekierka, possibly you want to use the cyclone thing 18:13:08 before splitting 18:13:12 yeah 18:13:26 And put one of the clones away somewhere 18:13:27 :) 18:13:30 So i can take it if needed 18:13:38 -!- thutubot has joined. 18:13:46 +ul (:aSS):aSS 18:13:48 asiekierka, not sure how to rebuild string 18:13:51 but should be possible 18:13:53 +quit 18:13:55 KonKat's :D 18:13:57 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:14:06 You just must ride there and there a lot 18:14:19 asiekierka, you got lables and conditional jumps 18:14:31 yeah 18:14:47 asiekierka, Consider that a luxury! 18:15:12 asiekierka, you can do Switch to plan "mainloop" 18:15:16 instead of GOTO 10 18:15:17 oh, yes 18:15:17 i know 18:15:18 :P 18:15:24 you can use labels 18:15:27 Also, yes, i did program in C64 basic this vacation 18:15:32 many languages lack it 18:15:37 asiekierka, hehe 18:15:40 :P 18:15:41 I never coded basic 18:15:45 but I know the basics of basic 18:15:50 I'll tell you one thing. 18:15:54 If you can use assembler, USE IT. 18:15:59 and that made me decide to not even code basic basic programs. basically 18:16:00 :P 18:16:02 USE IT i say and i say USE IT! 18:16:33 Still that is nowhere near oerjans puns :/ 18:16:38 asiekierka, btw how old are you? 18:16:49 I'll leave this a secret, since 18:16:52 a) everyone knows 18:16:55 b) everyone still knows 18:16:56 ehird said you were younger than him 18:17:03 yes 18:17:08 he's 11. 18:17:13 WRONG! 18:17:13 -!- oc2k1 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:17:15 well probably youngest around here 18:17:15 12. 18:17:16 11 and 10 months 18:17:17 10. 18:17:18 and 2,5 weeks 18:17:21 ahh, i see 18:17:28 asiekierka, basically 11 then? 18:17:29 And 10 seconds :P 18:17:32 yes 18:17:32 you haven't got past the "specifying more specifically than your years in agre" 18:17:32 + a bit more 18:17:33 stage. 18:17:35 -!- thutubot has joined. 18:17:42 my condolences 18:17:42 but closer to 12 though 18:17:44 2 months left 18:17:55 +ul (:aSS):aSS 18:18:00 +hello 18:18:01 Ugh, i wanted to ask something about Taxi, but i forgot what 18:18:06 +quit 18:18:07 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 18:18:08 ehird, well it is logical doing so. I mean you can round 184763897465783 to 184760000000000 in many cases 18:18:15 but 0.42 to 0 would often be silly 18:18:28 Oh, how do you pick up a specified value? 18:18:36 I have 13, then 10, then 32 set in starchild numerology 18:18:38 asiekierka, number or string? 18:18:43 Which one will i pick up first? 18:18:49 number 18:18:49 :) 18:19:00 13 is waiting at the Starchild Numerology. 18:19:00 10 is waiting at the Starchild Numerology. 18:19:00 32 is waiting at the Starchild Numerology. 18:19:04 That's what i have 18:19:10 Assume i'm at the Starchild Numerology 18:19:13 asiekierka, then I think you pick them up in that order? 18:19:14 What one will i pick up first 18:19:18 Pickup a passenger going to 18:19:19 blah 18:19:20 and so on 18:19:24 yes 18:19:26 asiekierka, not sure though 18:19:27 but which one would it be 18:19:29 so write a test program 18:19:30 -!- thutubot has joined. 18:19:37 asiekierka, " asiekierka, then I think you pick them up in that order" 18:19:38 ok 18:19:39 but first 18:19:44 same order as declared 18:19:46 i must compile Taxi 18:19:51 asiekierka, http://www.bigzaphod.org/taxi/calc.nick_turner.txt 18:20:01 considering that seems to do that way 18:20:14 See the [greeting] section 18:20:30 +ul (:aSS):aSS 18:20:30 2SS 18:20:34 ... 18:20:36 +hello 18:20:36 Hello, ais523! 18:20:40 +ul (abc)S 18:20:40 abc 18:20:44 +hello 18:20:45 Hello, asiekierka! 18:20:49 +hey 18:20:55 +I hate you 18:20:57 +ul (a):*S 18:21:02 +hello 18:21:02 Hello, ais523! 18:21:15 +ul (:^):^ 18:21:23 +quit 18:21:23 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 18:21:32 Also, how to compile a CPP file 18:21:37 ais523, was long time for 64 count caused by some bug or? 18:21:41 asiekierka: which platform? 18:21:48 Windows XP 18:21:49 with Mingw 18:21:50 AnMaster: no, just due to being inefficient 18:21:55 asiekierka, using g++ then? 18:22:11 anyway, it is buggy atm 18:22:14 g++ -o taxi taxi.cpp 18:22:15 or whatever 18:22:17 as I'm trying to put execution time limits on it 18:22:26 it worked 18:22:27 i think 18:22:36 asiekierka, wait windows? 18:22:40 yes 18:22:40 g++ -o taxi.exe taxi.cpp 18:22:41 then 18:22:44 Yes 18:22:47 only it got 737kb 18:22:48 or you will have trouble running the program 18:22:49 somehow 18:22:49 :P 18:22:56 asiekierka, seems reasonable for a C++ program? 18:23:00 oh 18:23:01 right 18:23:03 C + + 18:23:14 asiekierka, you may want -Os if not 18:23:18 asiekierka, anyway cpp is C++ 18:23:28 you don't need to append the .exe, mingw is smart enough to do it for you 18:23:35 Deewiant, ah, interesting 18:23:42 -O999 gives 651kb 18:23:45 enough 18:23:53 asiekierka, -O999 is same as -O3 18:24:12 there is no higher level than -O3 18:24:40 Yes 18:24:42 the same order 18:25:50 So i can start writing my bot 18:25:50 :D 18:27:56 Oh my god 18:28:05 there sure is a long way going to the Starchild Numerology a "short way" 18:28:05 Go to Starchild Numerology: west 1st left, 1st right, 3rd left, 1st right, 1st left, 2nd left. 18:29:28 -!- oc2k1 has joined. 18:33:38 asiekierka, probably want to select shortest routes in general to save fuel 18:33:46 yes 18:33:51 I think this is the shortest one 18:35:04 This one takeds approx. 7,2 miles 18:35:09 or 7.2 miles 18:35:24 is that past Firemouth Grill? 18:35:24 -!- thutubot has joined. 18:35:29 stupid mixed tabs and spaces 18:35:30 Or past Magic Eight? 18:35:36 in an indentation-caring language 18:35:38 +hello 18:35:38 Hello, ais523! 18:35:42 +ul (:aSS):aSS 18:35:42 SS 18:35:45 ugh 18:35:46 ais523, yes only use tabs 18:35:48 +ul (:^):^ 18:35:50 Yes, AnMaster, past Firemouth Grill 18:36:02 +quit 18:36:03 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 18:36:04 asiekierka, how long is the route past Magic Eight? 18:36:07 AnMaster: two-space tabs? 18:36:10 I only use spaces 18:36:12 atm 18:36:21 ais523, that or 4 18:36:23 Actually, a little bit shorter :P 18:36:25 the problem was that some spaces ended up inside a tab 18:36:30 Measured with a ruler! :D 18:36:38 anyway, Thutu's official indentation style is two-space 18:37:04 asiekierka, might not be exact 18:37:15 Yeah 18:37:17 asiekierka, can you get debug info from Taxi on that? 18:37:18 it's an approximation 18:37:22 Hmm 18:37:23 maybe 18:38:44 -!- thutubot has joined. 18:38:48 "Each passenger pays a standard fare of 0.07 credits per mile for the distance they have been riding in the cab." 18:38:49 asiekierka, hm ^ 18:38:57 that is quite low 18:38:58 +hello 18:38:58 Hello, ais523! 18:38:59 so be careful 18:39:01 Yeah 18:39:04 +ul (:aSS):aSS 18:39:04 -%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-% 18:39:10 hmm... that was strange 18:39:11 Zoom Zoom is the cheapest 18:39:17 although pretty 18:39:19 asiekierka, it is near the top 18:39:20 +ul (:^):^ 18:39:20 but if it's too far away, it may end off cheaper to go to another place 18:39:24 +quit 18:39:24 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 18:39:47 asiekierka, hm what if you pick up a passenger going to Zoom Zoom? 18:39:49 error? 18:39:59 I will see 18:40:03 Slowly 18:40:04 please 18:40:46 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:41:01 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:41:04 debug: 2 "W1:L1:R1:L1:R1:L1:L2:L" Starchild Numerology 18:41:05 debug2: 2 "W1:L1:R1:L1:R1:L1:L2:L" Starchild Numerology gas: 20 credits: 0 miles: 0 18:41:05 Driving to Starchild Numerology 18:41:07 outgoing: 18:41:09 This is debuglevel 2 18:41:25 With only one line 18:41:28 No coming back yet 18:41:36 -!- thutubot has joined. 18:41:37 hm 18:41:41 +hello 18:41:42 Hello, ais523! 18:41:45 +ul (:aSS):aSS 18:41:52 ais523, what about hot code reload in thutubot? 18:41:56 would it be possible? 18:41:56 +quit 18:41:56 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 18:41:59 AnMaster: it's a compiled language 18:42:01 so not very easy 18:42:06 ais523, hm ok 18:42:22 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:42:47 -!- thutubot has joined. 18:42:50 +ul (:aSS):aSS 18:42:51 SS ...out of time! 18:43:01 that also seems wrong 18:43:08 +ul (:^):^ 18:43:08 ...out of time! 18:43:11 well, that's right 18:43:13 +ul (test)S 18:43:14 test 18:43:19 20 credits: 0 miles: 0? 18:43:22 +ul (x)aS 18:43:24 0 miles? 18:43:31 +quit 18:43:31 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 18:43:49 It works on the example code 18:44:03 I think it updates only when i pick up someone 18:45:42 -!- thutubot has joined. 18:45:49 +ul (:aSS):aSS 18:45:49 SS ...out of time! 18:46:21 Oh 18:46:21 ok 18:46:27 +quit 18:46:27 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 18:46:35 The first way (thru the magic eight) is 6.06922 miles 18:47:42 The second one (through Firemouth) is 6.62596 miles 18:47:42 :O 18:48:17 The third one (through the Crime Lab) is 6.09101 miles 18:49:19 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 18:50:07 While the way through the riverview bridge is (O_O) 10.9714 miles! :D 18:50:17 very... gi gi gigigigantic 18:50:27 So we use the firemouth way 18:50:28 then 18:51:09 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:51:30 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:51:32 Yay 18:51:34 I found the right way 18:52:55 -!- thutubot has joined. 18:53:09 +hello 18:53:09 Hello, ais523! 18:53:12 +ul (:aSS):aSS 18:53:12 (:aSS):aSS 18:53:16 +ul (:^):^ 18:53:16 ...out of time! 18:53:23 +ul ((x)S:^):^ 18:53:23 x 18:53:31 +ul (x)aS 18:53:31 (x) 18:53:48 +ul ((a)S)^ 18:53:48 a 18:53:58 +ul ((x)S:^):^ 18:53:58 x 18:54:04 +ul (:^):^ 18:54:04 ...out of time! 18:54:07 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 18:54:08 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 18:54:10 +ul (:S:^):^ 18:54:10 :S:^ 18:54:22 +ul (a)S(b)S 18:54:22 a 18:54:45 ah, there must be something wrong with the S command 18:54:46 +quit 18:54:46 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 18:55:45 Working on my bot 18:57:11 -!- thutubot has joined. 18:57:16 +ul (:aSS):aSS 18:57:17 (:aSS):aSS 18:57:24 +ul ((x)S:^):^ 18:57:25 x 18:57:29 +ul (a)S(b)S 18:57:29 a 18:57:37 ugh 18:57:38 +qui 18:57:39 +quit 18:57:40 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 18:57:57 Well 18:58:07 About my wonders 18:58:12 I just built "NICK asiebot" 18:58:22 you need a USER command as well 18:58:27 Yes 18:58:27 and a PASS command if you register the thingg 18:58:32 I'm now modularizing it 18:58:45 or not 18:58:46 you know 18:59:51 Doo doo doo. 19:00:26 Augh. Taxi is a real boring esolang. 19:00:34 But it's a little fun too 19:00:39 Having a map you need to follow 19:00:40 : 19:00:40 P 19:00:41 :P 19:00:49 asiekierka: Boring but fun. I see. 19:00:54 That totally makes sense. 19:01:08 Boring much 19:01:10 but Fun little 19:01:10 like 19:01:12 90% boring 19:01:13 10% fun 19:01:15 that makes 100% 19:01:16 See? 19:01:27 But 90% boring 10% fun is just "boring". 19:01:36 mostly boring 19:01:37 Nothing is _totally_ boring. 19:01:39 fun in the little moments 19:01:50 Sitting there and doing nothing is totally boring 19:01:58 * asiekierka points to the chair 19:02:00 asiekierka: No it's not! 19:02:06 i said nothing 19:02:08 not even wondering 19:02:09 dreaming 19:02:10 thinking 19:02:13 just sitting 19:02:17 -!- puzzlet has quit (Connection timed out). 19:03:29 Wait 19:03:31 Does Taxi parse \r\n? 19:03:49 -!- thutubot has joined. 19:03:58 +ul (:aSS):aSS 19:03:58 (:aSS):aSS 19:04:01 hmm? 19:04:02 +ul (a)S(b)S 19:04:02 ab 19:04:08 +ul ((x)S:^):^ 19:04:08 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...out of time! 19:04:12 yay, it works! 19:04:22 now I just need to put the time limit up 19:04:30 hmm... probably I should cap the number of characters of output too 19:04:37 +quit 19:04:37 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 19:04:49 I think it does 19:05:04 This changes my plans as i can just send the whole sequence! 19:05:15 Do you even IMAGINE how much miles does this save!? 19:06:00 Yes, it parses it 19:06:26 -!- smthcoolbot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:07:47 I also prepared Taxi for running with netcat 19:09:02 -!- thutubot has joined. 19:09:11 +ul (:aSS):aSS 19:09:12 (:aSS):aSS 19:09:16 +ul (:^):^ 19:09:31 +ul ((x)S:^):^ 19:09:35 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output! ...out of time! 19:09:58 Ok 19:10:09 So how do you run nc with... "taxi.exe tst.txt"? 19:10:13 ais523 knows AFAIK 19:10:27 or AFAMKG 19:10:28 asiekierka: on Linux, you'd create a fifo 19:10:38 hey goys 19:10:40 and pipe the fifo to netcat to taxi to the fifo 19:10:49 I doubt that works on Windows, though 19:11:10 asiekierka: 19:11:22 nc -e "taxi.exe tst.txt" irc.freenode.net 6667 19:11:33 ehird: does that work? 19:11:37 I thought that when I tried it it connects 19:11:41 and then runs taxi, separately 19:11:49 no 19:11:54 its how egobot works 19:11:56 -!- asiebot has joined. 19:12:00 nc -e "./startEgoBot" blah 19:12:02 or something 19:12:02 Yes, this was wrote manually 19:12:03 hi asiebot 19:12:04 hi asiekierka 19:12:05 er 19:12:07 asiebot: help 19:12:08 !help 19:12:11 no 19:12:11 +quit 19:12:12 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 19:12:12 asiebot: BUTTCAKE 19:12:13 i run this manually 19:13:23 hey 19:13:28 -!- thutubot has joined. 19:13:33 yes, it is I, asiekierka 19:13:35 +ul (:aSS):aSS 19:13:36 (:aSS):aSS 19:13:40 +ul (:^):^ 19:13:40 oh 19:13:43 asiebot is just going from netcat 19:13:45 without taxi 19:13:54 i told it to you. and yes, yes, yes, yesyesyesYES. 19:13:54 +ul ((x)S:^):^ 19:13:57 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output! 19:14:16 almost works, but the out of time error message isn't coming up for some reason 19:14:17 +quit 19:14:17 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 19:15:00 +ul (:*S^):*S^ 19:15:00 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:15:15 asiebot: it isn't here atm 19:15:21 -!- asiekierka has joined. 19:15:23 I'll bring it back though 19:15:37 Wow, 19:15:39 -!- thutubot has joined. 19:15:45 +ul (x)S(:^):^ 19:15:52 wow, nc works more realibly than mIRC... somehow 19:15:58 yeah 19:15:59 +hello 19:16:05 x 19:16:05 Hello, ais523! 19:16:19 hmm... maybe I shouldn't have multiplied the timeout by 5, it slows things down a lot 19:16:27 or maybe I should do it in something other than unary 19:16:29 +quit 19:16:29 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 19:16:35 -!- asiebot has quit (Client Quit). 19:16:39 Heh 19:16:40 ais523: gimme an esolang 19:17:44 ehird: what in particular are you looking for? 19:17:54 ais523: not a tarpit 19:17:56 i wanna make an esobot 19:17:57 :P 19:18:00 hmm 19:18:10 ehird: Muriel 19:18:11 my specialty "featureful esolang" is single-expression python 19:18:20 ais523: hmph 19:18:53 Hmm 19:19:00 I connected with Taxi :) 19:19:03 But it didn't join 19:19:05 * ais523 adds some debug info 19:19:09 Could it be that i did not wait? 19:19:09 -!- thutubot has joined. 19:19:15 +ul (x)S(:^):^ 19:19:16 You can't really pause code with Taxi 19:19:17 :( 19:19:31 you don't need a wait 19:19:34 asiekierka: just run it without the server 19:19:35 x 19:19:36 and see what it outputs 19:19:40 You know 19:19:43 i ran taxi with it 19:19:48 +quit 19:19:48 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 19:19:55 taxi tst.txt | netcat niven.freenode.net 6667 19:20:10 Only it does say :niven.freenode.net 376 asiebot :End of /MOTD command. 19:20:13 Will it output the same? 19:20:14 * ais523 found the bug 19:20:55 -!- thutubot has joined. 19:20:56 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:21:03 haha 19:21:05 I love how he doesn't listen to us 19:21:11 of course you can't get input from a one-way pipe 19:21:13 that's why you use -e 19:21:14 LIKE I SAID 19:21:15 -!- asiekierka has joined. 19:21:17 asiekierka: 19:21:19 I told you to use -e. 19:21:28 netcat -e "taxi tst.txt" niven.freenodenet 6667 19:21:30 +ul (:^):^ 19:21:30 ...out of time! 19:21:37 +ul ((x)S:^):^ 19:21:37 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...out of time! 19:21:39 Terminated after a while 19:21:42 Oh 19:21:45 i didn't do an infinite loop 19:21:47 *faceslap* 19:21:50 sigh. 19:21:54 +ul (:aSS):aSS 19:21:54 (:aSS):aSS 19:22:10 +ul ((Hello, world! )S:^):^ 19:22:10 Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! ...too much output! 19:22:23 +ul (=r=n=x)S 19:22:24 =r=n=x 19:22:28 yay! 19:22:38 +ul (S:^):^ 19:22:38 S:^ ...out of time! 19:22:44 Huh. 19:22:46 That should output infinite S:^ 19:22:53 ehird: no it shouldn't 19:22:57 +ul (:S:^):^ 19:22:58 :S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^ ...too much output! 19:23:02 Oh. 19:23:03 do you see the difference? 19:23:08 +ul (:S^):^ 19:23:08 :S^ ...out of time! 19:23:11 Yes. 19:23:23 I'm still analyzing 19:23:33 hmm... should that be an out of time? 19:23:41 (:S^):^ 19:23:45 (:S^)(:S^)^ 19:23:48 (:S^):S^ 19:23:52 (:S^)(:S^)S^ 19:23:55 (:S^)^ 19:23:58 :S^ 19:24:00 S^ 19:24:01 ^ 19:24:04 ah 19:24:06 so it should just end 19:24:07 +ul ^ 19:24:07 ...out of time! 19:24:24 presumably it's a weird response to an out-of-stack thing 19:24:26 +ul * 19:24:26 ...out of time! 19:24:30 Hmm 19:24:37 ah, yes, it is 19:24:39 taxi tst.txt does an infiniloop 19:24:40 but nc does not 19:24:48 asiekierka: DO THIS: 19:24:53 nc -e "taxi tst.txt" irc.freenode.net 6667 19:24:55 it loops as long as there are commands left in the program 19:25:02 if there's out-of-stack-space, it can't run 19:25:13 This also terminated in a while 19:25:16 [infinite] 19:25:17 Switch to plan "infinite". 19:25:20 And it does this code at the end 19:25:23 in the post office 19:25:31 Without nc, this works 19:25:37 "NICK asiebot\r\nUSER asiebot asiebot asiebot :AsieBot!\r\nJOIN #esoteric" is waiting at the Writer's Depot. 19:25:37 Go to the Writer's Depot: west 1st left, 1st right, 1st left, 1st right, 1st left, 2nd left. 19:25:37 Pickup a passenger going to the Post Office. 19:25:37 Go to the Post Office: east 1st right, 2nd right, 1st left. 19:25:37 [infinite] 19:25:37 Switch to plan "infinite". 19:25:39 The code proper 19:26:02 let me get a better error message for that case 19:26:05 +quit 19:26:05 -!- thutubot has quit ("ThutuBot quitting"). 19:27:43 Oh 19:27:47 and how do you do it on LINUX 19:28:15 -!- atrapado has joined. 19:29:11 Hm? 19:29:30 the 19:29:30 SAME 19:29:31 WAY 19:29:44 also 19:29:44 asiekierka: 19:29:46 if it terminated 19:29:49 then freenode kicked you off. 19:29:58 Hmm 19:30:07 How would they do it 19:30:11 and why 19:30:23 1. Their server would. 19:30:26 2. Your code is ufcked. 19:30:29 *fucked 19:30:32 3. How is it? 19:30:39 3. I don't know. 19:30:41 ehird: my guess is that it isn't sending to Freenode from the Taxi program 19:30:46 because -e isn't piping correctly 19:30:50 ais523: asiekierka said that it ends the MOTD 19:30:52 so it evidently is 19:30:57 but not from -e! 19:31:06 Lemme check something 19:31:54 Ok 19:31:56 I may see it 19:32:02 I debugged it from localhost 19:32:09 exec taxi tst.txt failed : No such file or directory 19:32:12 This is what it says 19:32:14 So this means 19:32:22 -!- thutubot has joined. 19:32:30 +ul (:aSS):aSS 19:32:30 (:aSS):aSS 19:32:33 +ul * 19:32:34 ...* out of stack! 19:32:36 +ul a 19:32:36 ...out of time! 19:32:39 +ul S 19:32:39 ...out of time! 19:32:40 Ah. 19:32:40 asiekierka: 19:32:41 I try to create exec.bat 19:32:42 Do this in mingw: 19:32:42 +ul ^ 19:32:43 ...^ out of stack! 19:32:43 which does it 19:32:44 ais523: 19:32:46 shut up 19:32:46 +ul ! 19:32:47 ...! out of stack! 19:32:48 I need to paste this to asiekierka 19:32:50 asiekierka: yes 19:32:54 ehird: well, some of them are errors 19:32:54 asiekierka: then use -e exec.bat 19:32:54 Ok 19:32:56 asiekierka: exec.bat just has "taxi.exe thefile" 19:32:58 then -e exec.bat 19:32:58 and paste using a pastebin if needed 19:33:36 No such file or directory still 19:33:38 This is weird 19:33:42 I tried taxi tst.txt 19:33:45 asiekierka: do 19:33:52 +ul (a)aa 19:33:56 nc -e ./exec.bat irc.freenode.net 6667 19:33:57 exec.bat taxi tst.txt (exec.bat is %1 %2 %3... ...%9) 19:33:58 note the ./ 19:34:01 OOOHHH 19:34:07 ... duh 19:34:08 +ul a 19:34:08 ...out of time! 19:34:13 +quit 19:34:13 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 19:34:14 just make exec.bat 19:34:17 "taxi tst.txt" 19:34:17 then 19:34:20 nc -e exec.bat irc.freenode.net 6667 19:34:39 -!- thutubot has joined. 19:34:46 +ul a 19:34:46 ...a out of stack! 19:34:58 OK, I think thutubot's Underloadness is pretty good now 19:35:18 +ul (~:*~:^)::^ 19:35:27 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:35:36 famous last words 19:35:36 taxi.exe tst.txt 19:35:38 yes, I need to check against unbounded memory usage too 19:35:41 Contents of exec.bat 19:35:43 asiekierka: yes 19:35:44 then 19:35:49 nc -e exec.bat irc.freenode.net 6667 19:35:49 I do nc -e ./exec.bat .... 19:35:52 no 19:35:52 on localhost 19:35:53 omit the .? 19:35:55 *./ 19:35:55 and it can't find anything 19:35:58 just do -e exec.bat 19:36:42 Hmm 19:36:49 nc-e exec.bat 127.0.0.1 3245 19:36:53 i mean 19:36:54 nc -e* 19:36:58 And it outputs nothing 19:37:00 immediate quit 19:37:05 exec.bat is "taxi.exe tst.txt" 19:37:43 nc listener also fails after it 19:37:59 Set it on localhost 19:38:02 not just nothing 19:38:04 and works 19:38:10 Just sits there 19:38:29 so 19:38:45 nc -e exec.bat ..... - immediate fail on localhost, fail on anything else 19:38:51 nc listener on localhost - doesn't output anything 19:39:22 asiekierka: 19:39:26 rm exec.bat 19:39:28 cat>exec.sh 19:39:30 #!/bin/sh 19:39:35 ./taxi.exe tst.txt 19:39:37 (Ctrl-D) 19:39:40 chmod +x exec.sh 19:39:47 netcat -e ./exec.sh irc.freenode.net 6667 19:39:50 ^ do that 19:40:31 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:40:52 -!- asiekierka has joined. 19:41:04 Does nothing now 19:41:11 nc -e ./exec.sh irc.freenode.net 6667 19:41:15 just sits there 19:41:27 asiekierka: try just 19:41:29 ./exec.sh 19:41:33 does it output the right stuff? 19:41:45 I will see 19:41:53 Yess, now trying through sh 19:42:17 Yess, now trying through sh 19:42:19 oh wait 19:42:21 wrong window 19:42:32 Still no success it seems 19:43:22 :( 19:43:31 Stupid Li---Cygwin! 19:43:32 asiekierka: when you do 19:43:34 ./exec.sh 19:43:37 what does it saw 19:43:38 *say 19:43:44 what it should 19:43:44 or 19:43:46 NICK asiebot 19:43:51 USER asiebot asiebot asiebot :AsieBot! 19:43:54 JOIN #esoteric 19:44:00 Maybe it shouldn't be sent all at once 19:44:00 OK. 19:44:02 in one string 19:44:03 No. 19:44:05 it should 19:44:05 with \r\n's 19:44:07 so 19:44:08 when you do 19:44:12 ./exec.sh 19:44:13 nc -e ./exec.sh irc.freenode.net 6667 19:44:14 it does work 19:44:16 it just sits there? 19:44:17 But nc... 19:44:22 asiekierka: Well 19:44:23 Leave it running 19:44:26 its not meant to give any output 19:44:27 And? 19:44:31 Just run it like that for like 30 seconds 19:44:33 and i bet it'll join here 19:44:36 oh 19:44:36 maybe 19:44:38 It takes a while 19:44:40 i forgot 19:44:44 how long did you run it for 19:44:48 I don't know 19:44:49 Well 19:44:53 let's run it for 30 seconds now 19:44:56 . . . 19:45:05 I keep whoising asiebot 19:45:06 no result 19:45:16 BE PATIENT 19:45:24 Ok 19:45:34 OK. 19:45:38 It probably won't work if it's gone this far. 19:45:40 asiekierka: just a sec 19:45:53 wait 19:46:05 asiekierka: I have an idea to test it 19:46:19 what 19:46:29 -!- thutubot has joined. 19:46:31 +ul (~:*~:^)::^ 19:46:31 ...too much memory used! 19:46:33 asiekierka: when I say "just a sec wait" 19:46:34 just wait. 19:46:35 a sec. 19:46:40 ehird: see if you can crash Thutubot 19:46:54 +ul •ª•7•∞§å§§›Åfifl›§∞®§¶∞®∞›‹›Ÿ™°‡ÅÍÁÍ°·ÔÅÍؘˆÒÙıÔˆÛØÈÙ∏Ò∏ÅÍÒΔ∏ËÁ‰ÂÁÊ ‡°§•¶§¶•∑姕ºåß˙∂ª•∆ÈÔ°·ÅÍÎÁ°‡ÅÍÎ 19:46:59 hahahaha 19:47:05 +ul (as)S 19:47:06 as 19:47:06 +ul (•ª•7•∞§å§§›Åfifl›§∞®§¶∞®∞›‹›Ÿ™°‡ÅÍÁÍ°·ÔÅÍؘˆÒÙıÔˆÛØÈÙ∏Ò∏ÅÍÒΔ∏ËÁ‰ÂÁÊ ‡°§•¶§¶•∑姕ºåß˙∂ª•∆ÈÔ°·ÅÍÎÁ°‡ÅÍÎ)ß“∂≠ø∑ªº¶•#™·‚µ¨º¨≤99S 19:47:09 FAIL 19:47:11 oh 19:47:12 waait 19:47:15 +ul (as)S 19:47:15 as 19:47:18 HA 19:47:23 HA HA HA HA HA SO FUNNY. 19:47:25 maybe I should have a ...no output! 19:47:28 if there would be no output 19:47:39 Yeah 19:47:42 ais523: Why bother, fungot doesn't do that either. 19:47:42 fizzie: are you sure 19:47:49 :DD 19:47:51 fungot: _Yes_, I'm sure. I wrote you! 19:47:51 fizzie: sure. that's a press machine right? so i cannot test as i am 19:48:00 That thing is so uppity. 19:48:03 Well 19:48:03 uh 19:48:32 Incidentally, I was just watching fungot's console output, saw that ehird message, and thought it it had crasheded again since the message was just a mess. 19:48:32 asiekierka: 19:48:33 WAIT 19:48:34 A SECOND 19:48:41 Well 19:48:42 i am 19:49:52 ok 19:49:52 asiekierka: 19:49:58 run this 19:50:05 nc -e ./exec.sh 91.105.115.57 8080 19:50:09 and i'll examine what it sends 19:50:11 Ok 19:50:40 tell me when youve done that 19:51:03 +ul ((:*)(::**))(:^:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(()S!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^*a~^a~!~*:( )S)::::::::********^ 19:51:04 3 6 ...out of time! 19:51:18 asiekierka: done? 19:51:27 * ais523 increases the time limits 19:51:29 +quit 19:51:29 -!- thutubot has quit ("ThutuBot quitting"). 19:51:30 ok 19:51:32 ran it 19:51:34 neede dto go for a sec 19:51:40 ais523: Don't you have a reload command for it? :p 19:51:42 but it runs 19:51:50 asiekierka: OK, well. 19:52:00 Netcat isnt sending anything 19:52:01 Well, what? 19:52:03 Yes 19:52:04 asiekierka: Can you do 19:52:04 I know 19:52:05 nc -h 19:52:06 -!- thutubot has joined. 19:52:07 and 19:52:08 then 19:52:12 go to http://rafb.net/paste 19:52:13 fizzie: I have to recompile by hand 19:52:15 paste in the output 19:52:16 and Thutu can't do disk I/O 19:52:18 +ul ((:*)(::**))(:^:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(()S!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^*a~^a~!~*:( )S)::::::::********^ 19:52:19 and then give me the link? 19:52:41 thanks 19:52:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ahh. 19:53:02 Ok 19:53:21 I think I'll get the timeout to work in binary rather than unary 19:53:24 that'll be a lot faster 19:53:27 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:53:29 http://rafb.net/p/PGhRFJ84.html 19:53:46 asiekierka: OK, lemme think 19:53:53 asiekierka: Hmm 19:53:56 asiekierka: Can you modify your bot so 19:53:58 when it sends out a line 19:54:01 it first prints it to the screen? 19:54:03 Tip: 19:54:03 to do that 19:54:06 print to stderr 19:54:13 If you can't print to stderr, can you print to files? 19:54:20 If so, make it print what it sends to the server to log.txt 19:54:24 Then we can see what the problem is 19:54:39 Taxi doesn't have stderr 19:54:40 AFAIK 19:54:48 Does it have files? 19:54:53 Then just make it print it to log.txt 19:54:54 Taxi? No. 19:54:57 :P 19:55:08 Beh. 19:55:11 I'm not sure, then 19:55:13 I'm looking now for a native windows netcat 19:55:14 netcat should be working 19:55:16 asiekierka: No 19:55:17 No need to 19:55:21 It won't change anything 19:55:22 Try this though 19:55:25 cat>foo.sh 19:55:27 #!/bin/sh 19:55:31 echo hello world 19:55:33 echo blah 19:55:35 (Ctrl-D) 19:55:38 chmod +x foo.sh 19:55:41 Extend it with a Sawmill :P 19:55:46 nc -e ./foo.sh 91.105.115.57 8080 19:55:49 asiekierka: do that 19:55:54 i'll see what it does 19:55:58 done 19:56:01 [ehird:~] % ruby server.rb 19:56:01 hello world 19:56:02 blah 19:56:02 server.rb:5:in `gets': Connection reset by peer (Errno::ECONNRESET) 19:56:02 from server.rb:5 19:56:03 OK. 19:56:04 So 19:56:06 Netcat works 19:56:10 and the taxi works 19:56:13 but netcat<->taxi doesn't 19:56:14 So 19:56:16 asiekierka: 19:56:19 wait 19:56:23 did you compile your taxi with cygwin? 19:56:29 nope 19:56:30 i did with mingw 19:56:31 if not, remove your compiled taxi and recompile it inside cygwin 19:56:33 then try again 19:56:38 and it should work fine 19:56:41 Hmm 19:56:45 In Cygwin Mingw? 19:56:49 no. 19:56:52 in cygwin. 19:56:55 do this: 19:56:58 rm taxi 19:57:00 g++ -o taxi taxi.cpp 19:57:05 then run netcat again 19:57:24 The only problem is that i did not install g++ :P 19:57:32 in cygwin? 19:57:34 Just run setup.exe again 19:57:35 and recheck g++ 19:57:37 it'll just update it 19:57:39 to include that 19:57:49 ok 19:59:03 installing other stuff "just in case" 19:59:06 S oit'll take a while 19:59:09 -!- thutubot has joined. 19:59:11 So it'll take a while* 19:59:12 7% 19:59:29 +ul ((:*)(::**))(:^:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(()S!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^*a~^a~!~*:( )S)::::::::********^ 19:59:46 ais523: I am making my wonderful 'single-expression irc bot python wonder !!' 20:00:05 actually, let me test it on some simpler expressions first, with a shorter timeout 20:00:07 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:00:31 -!- thutubot has joined. 20:00:33 ehird: which languages will it interpret? 20:00:37 ais523: not sure 20:00:43 +ul (:aSS):aSS 20:00:43 (:aSS):aSS 20:00:43 but it will be written in one expression of python 20:00:46 +ul (:^):^ 20:00:46 ...out of time! 20:00:49 also 20:00:55 fucking neighbours and their FUCKING FIREWORKS 20:00:56 :| 20:00:58 +ul (1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S 20:00:58 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...out of time! 20:01:00 * ehird = grouch 20:01:12 +ul ((x)S:^):^ 20:01:12 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...out of time! 20:01:26 +ul ((:*)(::**))(:^:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(()S!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^*a~^a~!~*:( )S)::::::::********^ 20:01:27 ...out of time! 20:01:36 ok, I'll notch the timeout up a bit 20:01:38 +quit 20:01:38 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 20:02:06 -!- thutubot has joined. 20:02:08 +ul ((:*)(::**))(:^:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(()S!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^*a~^a~!~*:( )S)::::::::********^ 20:02:12 3 6 18 108 ...too much memory used! 20:02:29 27% (i srsly don't know why i chose to add fortran, d and ada too :P) 20:02:36 +ul ((:*)(::**))(:^:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(()S!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^*a~^a~!~*:( )S)::::****^ 20:02:39 3 6 18 108 ...too much memory used! 20:03:19 +ul ((:*)(::**))(:^:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(()S!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^*a~^a~!~*:( )S:^):^ 20:03:22 ...too much memory used! 20:03:48 +ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:)~*(*)*( )S~:^):^ 20:03:52 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 ...out of time! 20:04:02 yay, it works! 20:04:08 (not sure what the program before was doing, btw) 20:04:16 I'll up the timeout some more 20:04:20 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:04:46 -!- thutubot has joined. 20:04:52 +ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:)~*(*)*( )S~:^):^ 20:05:21 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 8 ...too much output! 20:05:37 +ul (:^):^ 20:05:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:05:39 ...out of time! 20:06:59 Heh. 20:07:04 How darling :D 20:07:18 meanwhile 20:07:18 (lambda f: (lambda x: f(x(lambda y: x(y))))(lambda x: f(x(x)))) 20:07:36 Slereah_: what is/ 20:07:39 Thututbot? 20:07:52 Hay, does it use the same sort of message? 20:07:54 ^bf +[] 20:08:01 ...out of time! 20:08:06 fizzie: yep 20:08:09 +ul (a)* 20:08:21 hmm... that should have errored 20:08:26 instead I got "No text to send" 20:08:27 Your output message is different, though, I think I just used three dots. 20:08:27 +ul * 20:08:28 ...* out of stack! 20:08:33 ais523 : Yes 20:08:34 ^bf +[.] 20:08:34 ............................................................................................................................................................................................................... ... 20:08:47 +ul ((.)S:^):^ 20:08:47 ................................................................................................................................ ...too much output! 20:09:39 it's nice to have two working esobots, though 20:09:46 +hello 20:09:46 Hello, ais523! 20:10:00 +ul (^show optbot)S 20:10:00 ^show optbot 20:10:00 ais523: oh 20:10:00 thutubot: you are new here? 20:10:07 +ul (^echochohoo optbot)S 20:10:07 ^echochohoo optbot 20:10:07 optbotptbottbotbotott 20:10:08 ais523: I run code from URLs too! 20:10:08 thutubot: it should have been a literal \cx 20:10:08 fungot: i'm just kidding 20:10:08 optbot: it turns ou that the code will be written 20:10:09 fungot: NOBODY LIKES ME EVERYBODY HATES ME GUESS I'LL GO EAT WORMS. 20:10:09 optbot: it is because the empty list is () 20:10:09 fungot: not sure if tr in perl can be used functionally. but perhaps (($2=~y/.../.../),$2) will work 20:10:10 optbot: why move right, instead of creating /usr/ local/ bin 20:10:10 fungot: I thought ; was for function sequencinging kind of things? 20:10:10 optbot: ' formal parameters. 20:10:11 fungot: Yeah. Supposedly more ``clean'', and yet they support a ? b : c 20:10:21 thutubot: you are new here? 20:10:22 ais523: hi jix 20:10:33 +ul (Not new, I was here a while ago, but you didn't see me then)S 20:10:33 Not new, I was here a while ago, but you didn't see me then 20:10:54 ais523: So, want to generate a bot-loop between those? All you need is a sort-of-a two-stage quine where stage one in underload outputs "^bf" plus stage two in brainfuck, which then outputs "+ul" plus stage one again. 20:11:12 All on one IRC-line. 20:11:25 ah, I'll think about it 20:11:31 BF and UL are pretty different so it wouldn't be trivial 20:11:35 -!- oc2k1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:11:49 -!- oc2k1 has joined. 20:11:52 ^show 20:11:52 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc xaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul 20:11:59 ^copy test 20:11:59 test 20:12:29 +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:12:29 ^copy +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:12:29 +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:12:29 ^copy +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:12:30 +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:12:30 ^copy +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:12:30 +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:12:31 ^copy +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:12:31 +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:12:32 ^copy +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:12:32 +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:12:33 ^copy +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:12:33 +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:12:33 ^copy +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:12:33 +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:12:34 ^copy +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:12:34 +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:12:34 +quit 20:12:35 -!- thutubot has quit ("ThutuBot quitting"). 20:12:40 fizzie: there you go 20:12:54 -!- thutubot has joined. 20:13:16 ais523: I would've rather liked to see a real brainfuck/underload hybrid-quine, but I have to admit that that was probably simpler. 20:13:44 yes, a hybrid-quine would be pretty tricky between those two langs 20:13:49 Although I guess you could've just made an underload quine that prepends "^bf ,[.,]!" -- no-one said you can't use input. 20:14:03 -!- oepy has joined. 20:14:05 Hi oepy. 20:14:07 +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:14:07 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:14:07 +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:14:08 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:14:08 +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:14:08 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:14:09 +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:14:09 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:14:09 +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:14:10 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:14:10 +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:14:11 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:14:11 +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:14:11 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:14:12 +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:14:12 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:14:13 +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:14:13 Oh lawd. 20:14:13 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:14:13 +quit 20:14:14 +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 20:14:15 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 20:14:19 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:14:29 -!- thutubot has joined. 20:14:55 I think I'll move that "at most four commands from any one user" from the babbling part to a higher level so that it just can't loop unless you involve a third esobot in it. 20:15:10 I should have a +ignorenext command or something 20:15:19 to help avoid that sort of loop 20:15:33 +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 20:15:33 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 20:15:34 ais523: AP sucks, it screwed me into taking more advanced (and degree-unrelated) science in college than I would have had to otherwise. 20:15:34 +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 20:15:34 thutubot: so nop is a bad and space wasting idea 20:15:34 fungot: It took me a moment to realise that was what you were saying was wonderful 20:15:34 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 20:15:34 +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 20:15:35 thutubot: when 20:15:35 fungot: OK, time for a stylistic argument 20:15:35 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 20:15:35 +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 20:15:35 thutubot: i figured it was a much stronger result to be able to duplicate existing techniques with the machinery than to just layer another abstraction on top 20:15:36 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 20:15:36 +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 20:15:37 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 20:15:37 +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 20:15:37 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 20:15:38 +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 20:15:38 fungot: ah you mean the game 20:15:38 +quit 20:15:38 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 20:15:40 thutubot: interesting 20:15:42 fungot: ... 20:15:44 thutubot: cctoide : Well, you know what would be better than the Steam system? 20:15:46 fungot: I'm working on implementing it in Python 20:15:48 thutubot: too many domains are taken 20:15:50 fungot: :( 20:15:54 fizzie: pretty trivially beaten anywya 20:15:56 -!- thutubot has joined. 20:16:27 Oh, right, the optbot babble would count since there's that "fungot:" prefix. 20:16:28 fizzie: so what are you doing that you have seen it 20:16:28 fizzie: ofc, this makes no sense 20:18:58 Although optbot's so slow in responding that it is possible the flood-protection might've kicked in already. At least there above I think fungot would've ignored that last ^bf command. 20:18:58 fizzie: does scheme feature anything similar to this 20:18:58 fizzie: oh! useful. 20:19:07 optbot: Glad you like it. 20:19:07 fizzie: and what should happen in such cases 20:19:47 Or maybe not. I guess it was the fourth and not the fifth command. 20:20:35 I guess it just needs a brain so that it can get bored easily. 20:23:05 -!- oepy has joined. 20:23:07 Test. 20:23:10 Huh. 20:23:15 Ohh. 20:23:16 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:23:21 -!- slereah has joined. 20:23:35 Let's try this. 20:23:43 -!- oepy has joined. 20:23:45 Test. 20:23:45 hi 20:23:49 Hooray. 20:23:49 hi 20:23:52 hi 20:23:58 oepy: You consist of one expression of Python. Don't you feel cute and small? 20:23:58 hi 20:24:04 Ok, who just /msg'd it. 20:24:05 hi 20:24:07 At least it seems happy enough. 20:24:08 hi 20:24:10 yes 20:24:11 hi 20:24:14 the little 'hi's are so cute. 20:24:15 hi 20:24:23 ok, we're going down for maintanence oepy 20:24:23 hi 20:24:25 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:24:25 oepy: You're like a little twittering bird. 20:24:27 Aww. 20:24:30 Finally 20:24:36 I got G++/Cygwin to install/run 20:24:37 fizzie: a bird with a miniscule attention span, evidently 20:24:46 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:24:49 ehird: i have a one-expression python bot that does bf, therefore i win 20:24:56 oklopol: whatever 20:24:57 mine is cute 20:25:01 well yes 20:25:10 also hopefully extensible 20:25:17 oepy is such a cute name i literally licked the screen when i first saw it 20:25:40 +ul (oepy)S 20:25:40 oepy 20:26:05 +hello 20:26:05 Hello, ais523! 20:26:33 Hmm 20:26:35 it may work now 20:27:03 Let's be patient 20:27:05 30 seconds limit 20:27:28 20 seconds and nothing 20:27:50 bash-3.2$ ./nc -e ./exec.sh irc.freenode.net 6667 20:27:58 Windows/Cygwin 20:27:59 asiekierka: you recompiled taxi? 20:28:06 Yes 20:28:20 ehird: let me try netcat -e 20:28:24 +quit 20:28:24 -!- thutubot has quit ("ThutuBot quitting"). 20:29:02 It also quits after a while, again 20:29:28 -!- thutubot has joined. 20:29:32 +hello 20:29:32 Hello, ais523! 20:29:36 ah, it does seem to work for me 20:29:55 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523_. 20:29:56 +quit 20:29:56 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 20:29:58 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 20:30:07 hmm... probably I should make it so other people can't get it to quit 20:31:57 ais523: pick oepy's command prefix 20:32:04 I'm thinking (: 20:32:14 # 20:32:16 -!- thutubot has joined. 20:32:20 +quit 20:32:20 +hello 20:32:21 Hello, ais523! 20:32:23 +quit 20:32:26 Argh 20:32:26 +quit 20:32:26 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit). 20:32:34 yep, just fixed that 20:32:49 And i'm still trying to fix netcat/taxi 20:32:57 netcat alone works, taxi/cygwin also works 20:33:00 but a duo of them does NOT 20:34:30 -!- thutubot has joined. 20:34:34 +quit 20:34:39 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to ais532. 20:34:40 +quit 20:34:43 -!- ais532 has changed nick to asiekierka. 20:34:45 ais523: What's that about []<> being reserved in Underload? Do they have a use? 20:35:03 fizzie: they were reserved in Overload 20:35:07 they don't have a use in Underload 20:35:22 but <> is a different type of grouping construct in Overload 20:35:28 and [] is for pragmas and comments and such 20:35:37 Ah, okay. 20:35:46 +ul (test)S 20:35:47 test 20:35:48 I should write that Funge-98 interpreter for it. 20:35:52 +ul [<>] 20:36:07 +ul [<(aha)>]<[S]> 20:36:14 +ul (aha)S 20:36:14 aha 20:36:15 asiekierka: I just treat [<>] as ordinary characters in Thutubot 20:36:21 +ul [<(aha)>]S]> 20:36:28 +ul ([<(aha)>])S]> 20:36:28 [<(aha)>] 20:37:07 +ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:)~*(*)*( )S~:^):^ 20:37:11 I'll try with the native windows version 20:37:22 (netcat) 20:37:32 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 8 ...too much output! 20:37:43 -!- oepy has joined. 20:37:44 (:test test 20:37:50 +hello 20:37:50 Hello, ais523! 20:37:51 Dmanit 20:37:55 What is \w again? 20:37:57 ehird: get oepy to say +hello 20:37:57 [^ ] right? 20:38:07 and I can't remember offhand 20:38:15 No, \w is alphabetics, digits and underline. 20:38:16 I think \w is [a-zA-Z_0-9] 20:38:25 \S is "not whitespace". 20:39:47 It's funny how "a word character" contains _. Slightly programmer-oriented; I don't think "normal" people use _ in words very often. 20:39:47 NC native for NT crashed when i quit the NC monitor. 20:39:54 So i think it DOES disconnect it 20:40:04 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:40:19 -!- oepy has joined. 20:40:23 :)test 20:40:25 :)test a 20:40:25 Hmm, reading with ultra-verbose 20:40:39 Ok 20:40:39 ehird: is :) your command marker/ 20:40:40 r':([^!]+)\S* PRIVMSG #esoteric :\(:([^ ]+)(.*)' 20:40:44 any flaw with that? 20:40:45 A lot of DNS fwd/rev mismatches 20:40:46 then 20:40:49 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:40:50 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:40:53 fizzie: yes, normal people would use "-" for instance, which in turn /isn't/ a "word character" 20:40:55 It says (: there, not :). 20:40:58 chat.freenode.net [64.161.254.20] 6667 (?) ope 20:40:58 select fuxored: NOTSOCK 20:40:58 sent 0, rcvd 0: NOTSOCK 20:41:00 open* 20:41:02 Here you go 20:41:12 ehird: yes, you got the smiley backwards 20:41:13 (:test 20:41:13 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:41:14 that's what it says with ultra-verbose at the end of nativeNC/mingwTaxi 20:41:14 And even with a space after it. 20:41:27 Oh, it was not-a-space, not a space. Anyway. 20:41:56 Hmm, something different in NCcygwin/Taxicygwin 20:42:14 -!- oepy has joined. 20:42:20 it says : Operation now in progress after the open line 20:42:24 And what else...? 20:42:38 :)hi 20:42:39 ehird hi 20:42:40 :)hi test 20:42:40 ehird hi ('test',) 20:42:44 :)poop machine!! 20:42:45 ehird poop ('machine!!',) 20:42:46 ouch 20:42:48 thats some lag 20:42:51 :)hi test 20:42:51 ehird hi ('test',) 20:42:55 :)test 20:42:56 asiekierka test 20:42:58 :)hi test my poop machine yo 20:42:58 ehird hi ('test', 'my', 'poop', 'machine', 'yo') 20:43:01 :)rocks 20:43:01 asiekierka rocks 20:43:04 :)hi test my poop machine yo 20:43:04 ehird hi ('test', 'my', 'poop', 'machine', '', '', '', '', '', 'yo') 20:43:46 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:43:46 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:43:56 -!- oepy has joined. 20:44:02 :)poop machine a 20:44:03 ehird poop ('machine', 'a') 20:44:06 Hooray! 20:44:35 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:44:40 -!- asiekierka has joined. 20:44:46 -!- oepy has joined. 20:44:49 Argh 20:44:50 :)pooping all over the butt machine 20:44:51 ehird pooping ('all', 'over', 'the', 'butt', 'machine') ( all over the butt machine 20:44:59 Taxi still doesn't work 20:45:01 Excellent 20:45:12 Neither thru irc 20:45:16 neither thru localhost 20:46:30 select fuxored: NOTSOCK? 20:46:37 this is what ncNATIVE_NT says 20:46:50 ncCYGWIN shutdowns after a while 20:47:02 with exec.sh, it stays thee 20:47:04 there* 20:47:14 Lemme test it 20:47:29 :)the quick brown fox jumps under the lazy dog 20:47:30 Gneh, fungot has some hardwired brainfuck assumptions that need fixing if I want to add another language. For one thing, it thinks all (prepared) program data consists of pairs of cells, only the first of which is used to check where the program ends. 20:47:30 fizzie: hi mad, and welcome :)) 20:47:30 ihope the ('quick', 'brown', 'fox', 'jumps', 'under', 'the', 'lazy', 'dog') ( quick brown fox jumps under the lazy dog 20:47:41 How useful. 20:47:43 fungot: I'm not mad! Who you're calling mad?! 20:47:43 fizzie: fnord is creepy also. it's nietzsche.. 20:47:45 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:48:15 Ok 20:48:39 -!- oepy has joined. 20:48:42 :)test 20:48:47 :)test a 20:48:47 :)a 20:48:51 Phoo. 20:48:52 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:48:52 :)as ie ki er ka 20:49:06 +ul (asiekierka)S 20:49:06 asiekierka 20:49:24 -!- oepy has joined. 20:49:25 :)test a b c 20:49:35 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:49:45 -!- oepy has joined. 20:49:46 :)test a b c 20:49:50 SHA WHAT 20:49:51 ha 20:49:52 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:50:30 +ul (who/what )(is oepy)*S 20:50:31 who/what is oepy 20:50:50 a bot. 20:50:56 -!- oepy has joined. 20:51:01 :)test a b c 20:51:04 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:51:09 OH 20:51:10 Argh! No, Taxi doesn't work. The only way i could get it to work is by using real Linux 20:51:29 -!- oepy has joined. 20:51:33 :)test a b 20:51:33 (['a', 'b\r'],) 20:51:34 but Windows is essential to my work 20:51:36 :)test a b c d 20:51:37 (['a', 'b', 'c', 'd\r'],) 20:51:46 Seems i need to re-install Linux :(( 20:51:48 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:51:58 -!- oepy has joined. 20:52:01 :)test a b c d 20:52:02 (['a', 'b', 'c', 'd'],) 20:52:15 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:52:15 asiekierka: what are you doing/trying to do? 20:52:19 Hokay. 20:52:38 Run Taxi through netcat on this channel using Windows/Cygwin 20:52:42 -!- oepy has joined. 20:52:44 :)echo fancy butt machine 20:52:44 fancy butt machine 20:52:52 YEAAAAAAAAH 20:52:53 what's Taxi 20:53:00 an esolang 20:53:17 It uses cout to output 20:53:20 cout/endl 20:53:50 and how doesn't it work? 20:53:56 It just sends nothing 20:53:59 echo to localhost works 20:54:02 echo to ehird works 20:54:08 Taxi to localhost fails 20:54:11 Taxi to ehird fails 20:54:17 Taxi to freenode fails 20:54:25 Basically 20:54:27 Taxi interpreter works 20:54:28 have you tried flushing cout? 20:54:29 Netcat works 20:54:33 but they don't work together 20:54:37 Deewiant: I don't know C++ 20:54:43 or at least not PC C++ 20:54:53 what C++ then? ;-P 20:55:14 ais523: what should I add to oepy 20:55:23 C++ for DS 20:55:29 and not much at that 20:55:32 i barely used C++ for it 20:55:33 mainly C 20:55:57 or hmm 20:56:04 if you're just running taxi | nc or something 20:56:18 then it could be the | that's causing the buffering 20:57:34 well, it looks like it's not interactive 20:57:36 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:57:42 so? 20:57:46 in which case if taxi terminates that's not the problem 20:57:55 yes it does 20:57:59 except if i do an infiniloop 20:58:02 to keep it alive 20:58:04 what i do now 20:58:06 it should connect 20:58:08 and join 20:58:10 and stay there 20:58:13 for a while 20:58:16 -!- oepy has joined. 20:58:17 a oepy b 20:58:18 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:58:28 if you're keeping it alive it might be buffering stuff 20:58:44 -!- oepy has joined. 20:58:45 a oepy b 20:58:46 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:59:25 -!- oepy has joined. 20:59:26 a oepy b 20:59:27 hi ehird 20:59:38 yay 20:59:40 try and /msg oepy 20:59:41 hi ehird 20:59:43 arsdio oepy werijirjf 20:59:43 hi oklopol 21:00:07 cool it's a hi bot 21:00:25 on #sex, there used to be tons of ya bots 21:00:31 i could just ya with them all day long 21:00:38 COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD 21:00:45 :D 21:01:04 oklopol: also 21:01:06 :)echo ECHO 21:01:07 ECHO 21:01:12 nice prefix 21:01:14 :) 21:01:20 ima go read -> 21:01:26 :)=== 21:01:33 :)echo :) 21:01:33 :) 21:01:39 :)echo :)echo :)echo 21:01:40 :)echo :)echo 21:01:45 uh 21:01:47 :/ 21:01:59 asiekierka: what? 21:02:06 ^rot13 :)echo 21:02:06 :)rpub 21:02:14 ^rot13 :)rpub ^rot13 :)echo 21:02:15 ^echo :)echo 21:02:15 :)echo ^ebg13 :)rpub 21:02:15 :)echo :)echo 21:02:15 ^ebg13 :)rpub 21:02:17 ^echo :)echo 21:02:18 :)echo :)echo 21:02:18 :)echo 21:02:30 what did i just do? 21:02:39 ^echo :)echo ^echo :)echo 21:02:39 :)echo ^echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo 21:02:40 ^echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo 21:02:40 :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo 21:02:40 :)echo ^echo :)echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo 21:02:43 Huh. 21:02:45 ^echo :)echo ^echo :)echo 21:02:45 :)echo ^echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo 21:02:46 ^echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo 21:02:46 :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo 21:02:47 :)echo ^echo :)echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo 21:02:47 fizzie: 21:03:15 ^echo :)echo ^echo :)echo 21:03:15 :)echo ^echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo 21:03:16 ^echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo 21:03:16 :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo 21:03:17 :)echo ^echo :)echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo 21:03:20 weird 21:03:21 Ah. 21:03:55 ais523: suggest a command 21:04:04 ehird: a BF interp 21:04:10 boring 21:04:29 +ul ((:)echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:04:29 ais523: there is not append 21:04:30 {{:}}echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ...a out of stack! 21:04:50 ugh, can't do unmatched () in Underload 21:04:55 so there goes my botloop 21:05:10 aw 21:05:15 i'll give it a nicer prefix 21:05:16 like 21:05:25 ^_^ 21:05:30 = 21:05:36 no.. 21:05:38 something happier... 21:05:39 * 21:05:45 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:05:55 -!- oepy has joined. 21:05:59 ehird: get ready to get oepy to quit by the way, to end the loop 21:05:59 hi ais523 21:06:10 +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:10 *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:10 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:11 heh 21:06:11 ais523: Um 21:06:11 thutubot: hi RodgerTheGreat 21:06:11 oepy: ~pexec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo") 21:06:11 +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:11 *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:11 fungot: always 21:06:12 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:12 thutubot: maybe ubuntu's is different 21:06:12 oepy: Thank you. 21:06:12 optbot: like the man said, " enough features to write a 21:06:12 +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:12 *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:13 fungot: with goto, you specify the label, not have it specified for you 21:06:13 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:13 +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:13 optbot: because it's like lisp macro expansion 21:06:13 *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:13 totally unaware and happy 21:06:14 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:14 +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:15 *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:15 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:15 fungot: unit is just there for.. mathematical nicety, I guess. 21:06:15 +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:15 *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:15 optbot: wordnet is nice, but there were real operating systems. 21:06:16 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:17 thutubot: 10 GreaseMonkey: daemon idle_10 bf8 21:06:17 +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:17 *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:18 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:19 oepy: no it's not! 21:06:19 +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:19 *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:20 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:20 damn 21:06:21 fungot: it'd need to be the rest of memory.. take input for an example of that 21:06:21 +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:21 *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:22 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:22 this is cute 21:06:23 fungot: we should get our own geordi going... 21:06:23 optbot: if pc-increment! pc-decrement! are sufficiently trivial, scheme48 will suffice. 21:06:24 let's just run this for a bit 21:06:25 thutubot: i only wanna ban everyone for a second, lament 21:06:25 +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:25 *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:26 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:26 -!- optbot has quit (Excess Flood). 21:06:27 +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:27 *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:27 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:29 +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:29 *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:30 ah 21:06:30 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:31 +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:31 optbot is down 21:06:31 *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:32 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:33 +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:34 *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:34 ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:34 +quit 21:06:34 -!- thutubot has quit ("ThutuBot quitting"). 21:06:34 now the rest will decay 21:06:35 +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^ 21:06:37 ais523: aww 21:06:41 ehird: no they won't 21:06:41 you should have let them go naturally 21:06:45 well 21:06:46 optbot did 21:06:46 the loop works even without optbot 21:06:50 yes 21:06:50 but 21:06:53 they will all flood themselves to death 21:06:54 :-P 21:07:06 -!- optbot has joined. 21:07:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | idea! write an optimizing axo compiler. 21:07:46 -!- thutubot has joined. 21:08:29 who wants my current source 21:08:33 -!- rodgort has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:08:42 http://rafb.net/p/KhFMTZ61.html 21:09:27 ehird: interesting 21:09:31 -!- rodgort has joined. 21:09:34 Thutubot's is up on eso-std 21:09:38 but not online yet because you haven't added it 21:09:48 mine has a nice 'shape' to it 21:10:57 Mine has a triangle in it. 21:13:58 its almost LISP! 21:14:01 only not as awesome 21:14:27 yes, I wondered what that triangle was for 21:14:43 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:14:54 -!- oepy has joined. 21:14:55 *rot13 YO YO IN DA HOUSE 21:14:55 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:15:04 bye oepy 21:15:19 -!- oepy has joined. 21:15:20 *rot13 YO YO IN DA HOUSE 21:15:21 YO YO IN DA HOUSE 21:15:27 heh. 21:15:29 rot260 21:15:32 er 21:15:33 26 21:15:34 *rot13 poop 21:15:35 vuuv 21:15:39 *rot13 vuuv 21:15:39 BAAB 21:15:41 XD 21:15:47 oh 21:15:47 durr 21:16:08 *rot13 BAAB 21:16:09 BAAB 21:17:27 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:17:38 -!- oepy has joined. 21:17:41 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:21:43 *rot13 test 21:21:49 hm is ais523 here? 21:22:10 yes 21:22:15 +ul (So am I.)S 21:22:15 So am I. 21:22:16 I just got an idea for an encryption scheme. It probably got some issue that makes it insecure 21:22:20 but I can't think of one 21:22:29 go on, then 21:22:40 well first you select a good PRNG algorithm. 21:22:49 Then you in some way generate a seed that is random 21:23:02 -!- asiekierka has quit (Connection timed out). 21:23:16 now you use this good PRNG to generate a one time crypto, starting at the seed you generated. 21:23:21 Then you encrypt the message 21:23:35 now you use a real one-time-pad to encrypt the *seed* 21:23:47 then you put that encrypted seed at the front of the message 21:23:49 and send it 21:24:00 well, the issue is that no PRNG is good enough 21:24:12 or the ones that are, are used like that already 21:24:14 the receiver can then decrypt the seed using his one time pad copy 21:24:23 ais523, hm ok 21:25:10 ais523, But aren't there some very good PRNG iirc? 21:25:19 yes, probably 21:25:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blum_Blum_Shub#Security 21:25:45 maybe that one 21:28:42 one-time pads are only secure because every possible message will be generated by attempting to bruteforce the key 21:28:48 ais523, but if the PRNG is good enough, would it be as secure as using a true one-time-key? 21:29:01 if you reduce it to 32-bits or whatever, then all you have to do is test each value and see if it makes a vaguely recognizable message 21:29:05 it never could be as good 21:29:11 comex, ah right 21:29:23 you could brute-force it based on the amount of internal state in the PRNG 21:29:29 thus you couldn't send a message that was too long 21:29:49 eh, I think most good prngs have a period wayy longer than most messages 21:29:57 s/most/all 21:30:23 comex, maybe someone want to encrypt all of Tolkin's books? ;P 21:30:30 even so, you'd probably need a number of bits in the period greater than the number of possible messages 21:30:42 e.g. if it was a 32-bit prng, you could only send a 5-bit message 21:30:44 or something like that 21:30:59 or brute-forcing would work 21:31:36 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 21:31:41 AnMaster: Mersenne Twister has a period of 2^19937 - 1 21:31:45 -!- Leonidas has joined. 21:31:56 which is... uh... big 21:38:15 comex, And Blum Blum Shub? 21:38:34 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 21:40:51 Using a PRNG to generate a xor pad pretty much means just turning the PRNG into a stream cipher; the size of the seed is then the cipher key size. 21:45:02 Cryptographically secure PRNGs pretty much seem to be usually implemented using other cryptographic primitives, anyway; like hash functions or just running a block cipher on a counter value. Blum Blum Shub is the odd one, though. 21:49:07 Why is there always a zero in the fungot state file on the next line after the command name... wait, that's the language specifier, 0 means brainfuck. 21:49:07 fizzie: always reinventing myself. i should wake 22:19:34 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:19:38 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:20:20 -!- oepy has joined. 22:20:21 *rot13 test 22:20:22 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:20:38 maybe I should write a rot13 in Thutu 22:20:52 but it would be a pain as Thutu has no equivalent to q/// 22:20:55 -!- oepy has joined. 22:20:57 *rot13 test 22:20:57 zkyz 22:21:00 *rot13 zkyz 22:21:01 fqef 22:21:04 *rot13 fqef 22:21:04 lwkl 22:21:07 *rot13 lwkl 22:21:07 rcqr 22:21:09 Etf. 22:21:09 ehird: that's a rot12 22:21:10 *Wtf 22:21:11 Oh. 22:21:24 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:21:25 actually, not even 12 22:21:28 some other number 22:21:30 Yes. 22:21:41 it's rot6 22:21:56 how can you try to write a rot13 and end up writing a rot6? 22:22:29 -!- oepy has joined. 22:22:41 ord(x) instead of alphabet.index(x) 22:22:58 *rot13 test 22:22:59 grfg 22:23:01 *rot13 grfg 22:23:02 test 22:23:04 woop woop 22:23:05 *rot13 $ 22:23:06 $ 22:23:10 *rot13 Hello, world! 22:23:10 Uryyb, jbeyq! 22:23:15 *rot13 Uryyb, jbeyq! 22:23:16 Hello, world! 22:23:18 Hooray. 22:23:27 *rot13 Furrfu 22:23:27 Sheesh 22:23:50 ha 22:25:21 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:25:25 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:25:33 ais523: want the crazy current source? 22:25:41 Single expression python is easy once you get used to it 22:25:47 ehird: may as well 22:25:53 besides, I've written single expression C 22:25:55 that's a lot scarier 22:26:03 ais523: http://rafb.net/p/8gjbwT69.html 22:26:09 Actually, it makes my coding style a bit better. 22:26:21 Since you can't trivially add variables, it stays clean (well, as clean as single-expr python can be) 22:26:33 btw, is single-expression-Python whitespace-sensitive? 22:26:36 ais523: no 22:26:44 if it isn't that's an even better reason to write Python programs in one expression 22:27:04 oepy: say hi to optbot 22:27:05 hi ais523 22:27:05 ais523: PLEASE DO IRP IN #irp. 22:27:39 there's nothing wrong with whitespace sensitivity. 22:27:48 *echo hi optbot 22:27:49 ehird: that's odd 22:27:49 hi optbot 22:27:49 oepy: COME BACQ 22:27:50 hi optbot 22:27:50 oepy: Almost Carrollian. 22:27:50 yes, there is 22:27:51 hi optbot 22:27:51 oepy: ...in an extremely painful and weird way 22:27:52 hi optbot 22:27:52 oepy: ((lambda 3 1 ((closure-ref (get-num-arg 1) 0) (get-num-arg 1) (closure (lambda 2 3 ((lambda 1 1 ((closure-ref (get-num-arg 1) 0) (get-num-arg 1) (get-num-arg 3))) (get-num-arg 2)))))) (closure (lambda 4 2 (%halt (get-num-arg 2))))) 22:27:53 hi optbot 22:27:53 oepy: it doesn't make any sense to, nor is it even useful to, by default, bind variables to a temporary local scope. 22:27:53 hi optbot 22:27:54 oepy: !undaemon ctcp 22:27:55 hi optbot 22:27:56 oepy: how's this for a filename: ickirc-c.rstclci.in 22:27:56 hi optbot 22:27:58 oepy: Your philosophy is both bizarre and completely stupid. 22:27:58 hi optbot 22:28:00 it messes up copy-and-paste 22:28:00 oepy: 70 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 70 BOTTLES OF BEER. 22:28:01 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:28:04 ais523: no 22:28:05 that's stupid 22:28:09 and it can't easily be sent over IRC 22:28:09 that means your editor SUCKS 22:28:15 and yes, it can 22:28:20 just not on one line. 22:28:24 thats like 22:28:25 c sucks 22:28:28 you cant send entire programs over irc 22:28:29 all sorts of things mess up whitespace 22:28:30 because they're too big 22:28:32 you have to pastebin them! 22:28:43 a Python program can't recover from an accidental M-q 22:29:03 yes it can 22:29:05 and before you say that's stupid, my BF interp in Python for bsmnt_bot got messed up like that 22:29:06 it's called "undo" 22:29:16 and no, I didn't notice until after I'd saved, and lost the backup 22:29:24 that's not python's problem 22:30:06 well, most other langs are more resistant to that sort of thing 22:30:11 * ehird wonders what to add next 22:30:21 also, it's a pain to move Python code from inside a slightly indented block to a very indented block 22:30:29 no 22:30:30 it's not 22:30:35 because you can't just automatically recompute the indent of every line 22:30:36 with my editor, I just copy 22:30:37 and paste. 22:30:40 which is my normal technique 22:30:42 and it _WORKS_ 22:30:48 ehird: it can't do in all cases 22:30:49 it's not even emacs, too 22:30:51 ais523: yes, it can 22:30:57 physically impossible because there's sometimes more than one possibility 22:31:40 no 22:31:43 that's haskell :P 22:32:59 * ehird notes that python has 'let' 22:33:07 (lambda a=2, b=3: ...)() 22:34:48 I just got an idea 22:34:57 probably it is either bad, or someone made it before 22:35:01 Quantum Prolog 22:35:12 AnMaster: Proud would be like that 22:35:19 actually, Proud's like that but worrse 22:35:21 *worse 22:35:26 worse? how? 22:35:37 it can handle an infinite amount of data 22:35:43 ais523, and I didn't mean it as an esolang 22:35:44 that's how it manages to be super-TC without loops 22:35:53 but a mainstream language for the future 22:35:57 you couldn't implement it on an actual quantum computer 22:36:06 they don't have flow control 22:36:07 mainstream language 22:36:08 FOR THE FUTURE 22:36:12 THE FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTUUUUUUUUUREEEEEEEEEEE 22:36:28 ais523, ah so quantum prolog wouldn't work then 22:36:39 well, you'd have to emulate it 22:36:44 so it wouldn't actually save computing speed 22:36:48 in fact I would like to read some beginners quide to how quantum computers work 22:36:51 Quantum computers don't have flow control...? 22:37:02 I did a project about learning about quantum computers once 22:37:07 and they don't have flow control 22:37:12 Huh... 22:37:12 you need a regular computer to control them 22:37:15 Ahhhh. 22:37:15 ais523, and how to program for them 22:37:21 yes 22:37:24 and I wrote a simulator 22:37:26 ais523, got a link? 22:37:27 and factorised 15 on it 22:37:30 Quantum computers kinda sound like hype to me. 22:37:31 :\ 22:37:39 AnMaster: not off the top of my head, unfortunately 22:37:41 ehird, reverse polarity! 22:38:25 ais523, got some link to some good alternative then? 22:38:35 no 22:38:41 hm 22:38:44 I could google-search, but you could just as easily 22:38:51 ais523, for the project? 22:38:59 project isn't online 22:38:59 ais523, remember name? 22:39:01 oh ok 22:39:02 and probably not on this computer 22:39:10 possibly not anywhere, actually 22:39:24 it was years ago 22:41:02 ais523: what should i implement next 22:41:44 an interp for an esolang currently not interpretable by this channel 22:41:46 hmm... 22:41:49 !haskell 2+" 22:41:50 !haskell 2+2 22:41:55 gah, not working 22:42:09 ? 22:42:09 (btw, it just bounced the requests off Lambdabot; it was a joke) 22:42:16 heh 22:42:18 what bot had it 22:42:19 +haskell 2+2 22:42:24 Thutubot 22:42:28 +ul (:aSS):aSS 22:42:28 (:aSS):aSS 22:42:36 the Underload is genuine, though 22:44:26 -!- oepy has joined. 22:44:33 *help 22:44:34 {'rot13': at 0xcf130>, 'help': at 0xcf2f0>, 'echo': at 0xcf270>} 22:44:45 that's not all that useful 22:44:51 no 22:44:59 is "rot13, help, echo" useful? 22:45:28 yes, more useful 22:45:48 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:45:59 -!- oepy has joined. 22:46:00 *help 22:46:01 echo, help, rot13 22:46:13 cool 22:46:14 what now 22:46:50 ais523: 22:47:23 do an Unlambda interp 22:47:27 or some other esolang 22:47:30 that isn't in here atm 22:47:36 yes, but 22:47:38 one python expression 22:47:38 maybe hq9+ 22:47:39 :P 22:47:44 also 22:47:54 perhaps i should make it interpret one-expression python. 22:47:54 >:D 22:48:03 hmm 22:48:06 ehird: that would be very dangerous 22:48:08 wait, bsmnt_bot did that didn't it 22:48:09 ais523: no 22:48:11 because it might let people hack your computer via the bot 22:48:13 i'd just have to block __import__ 22:48:16 or chroot it 22:48:49 but 22:48:55 i think bsmntbombdood did one statement python 22:48:56 so. 22:49:02 yes, eir bot was chrooted 22:49:13 i dont care about security. 22:49:22 but if bsmnt_bot did one-expr python 22:49:22 which server's oepy running on? 22:49:23 hi ais523 22:49:26 then that is not speshul 22:49:31 ais523: bournemouth 22:49:33 if it's rutian, then I do 22:49:41 also, ofc i'd secure it 22:49:42 i meant 22:49:46 i wasnt talking about security 22:49:52 (also: i'm the one who pays for rutian...) 22:49:54 do dc 22:49:57 that's almost an esolang 22:50:00 dc? 22:50:03 oh 22:50:04 calc lang thing 22:50:06 hmm 22:50:06 yes 22:50:10 i'd prefer something you could use to write commands 22:50:11 it's concatenative and TC 22:50:21 that, you know, didn't kill you 22:50:25 and you could just push the input on the stack at the start 22:50:25 ais523: what's reverse in dc 22:50:31 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:51:04 ehird: r swaps the top two stack elements 22:51:10 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:51:12 to do more than that you need to either use variables 22:51:15 or do it Underload-style 22:51:20 ais523: i mean, input is on stack at the start 22:51:28 show me a program that uses that 22:51:31 to reverse the input 22:51:32 then output it 22:51:37 if it's not trivial its not useful for making bot cmds :P 22:52:04 it isn't trivial 22:52:12 but it is possilbe 22:52:14 optbot ? 22:52:14 Mony: >>> factors 557940830126698960967415390 22:52:15 *possible 22:52:16 kay. 22:52:24 'twould probably take about half-an-hour to write 22:52:39 ouch! 22:52:41 no way then 22:52:52 normally you just use dc for arithmetic 22:52:53 2 2 + 22:52:55 is 4 22:52:57 for instance 22:53:00 yes 22:53:26 hmm... 22:53:29 anyone have any bright ideas? 22:54:21 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:54:39 -!- Mony has joined. 22:55:07 ais523: pick an interesting language that is easy to write bot commands in 22:55:07 gogogo 22:55:14 Thutu 22:55:27 except that that's whitespace-sensitive 22:57:04 glass should be somewhat easy 22:57:24 oerjan: really? To write commands in, or to implement? 22:57:31 to write commands in 22:57:42 yeah but 22:57:45 class will be a pain to implement 22:57:47 in one python expression 22:57:51 although technically you can do classes 22:58:10 type('name', (object,), {'func': (lambda self, a: ...)}) 22:58:18 one python expression? why is that? just for the challenge? 22:58:37 oerjan: The whole bot is one python expression. 22:58:44 (Since that's an esolang that's easy to write stuff in.) 22:58:52 not a statement? 22:58:56 http://rafb.net/p/8gjbwT69.html is the current code, sans the help command. 22:59:05 python is not an esolang 22:59:05 oerjan: nope, one expression that can be used as a statement 22:59:08 and 22:59:11 one-expression python is an esolang. 22:59:19 hm ok 22:59:34 i mean just look at that paste 22:59:38 it's easy to write, kinda 22:59:39 but very eso 23:00:04 ehird: I'm going to use that code to annoy a friend of mine who's a big Python fan, I think 23:00:12 and who claims there's only one way to do things in Python 23:00:12 I think ehird mean that it is eso, same way as obfuscated C is eso 23:00:14 ais523: i doubt it'll annoy him 23:00:20 ais523: he'll just have a seizure 23:00:23 and then laugh himself to death 23:00:31 anyway, the point is there's only one obvious, easy way 23:01:04 anyway 23:01:07 ehird, also is that code indention sensitive? 23:01:08 glass would be a pain 23:01:09 as it's rather bloated. 23:01:10 AnMaster: no 23:01:14 :D 23:01:22 whitespace only determines blocks in python. 23:01:25 end of 23:01:28 non-indention sensitive python rocks 23:01:36 no 23:01:38 everyone should write python code like that 23:01:38 it doesn't 23:01:38 :) 23:01:40 it's awful 23:01:42 and that's why i'm writing it 23:01:55 * ais523 agrees with AnMaster 23:01:57 ehird, that code is beautiful 23:02:04 ais523, thanks 23:02:06 no, it's not 23:02:13 it's awful, unmaintainable shite 23:02:35 ais523, also I haven't found any good introduction for how to program a quantum computer, plenty of generic introductions at hardware level 23:02:39 which is the exact goal 23:02:53 * ehird thinks of esolangs... 23:02:56 AnMaster: it's kind-of hard, as all the commands always run in exactly the same order 23:03:12 because any attempt to depend on its internal state stops it working 23:03:14 ais523, it should be easy to add new commands 23:03:19 besides echo and rot13 23:03:24 well, yes 23:03:30 ehird wants to add an esolang command 23:03:41 as atm e isn't implementing any langs besides Text and the rot13 version of it 23:03:57 you need to add PING/PONG, but that should be trivial too 23:04:02 no i dont 23:04:05 freenode lets you ignore pings 23:04:11 ehird: not forever it doesn't 23:04:15 ehird, only if you send something else 23:04:22 you have to do /something/ every now and then 23:04:23 ais523: my experience suggests otherwise 23:04:25 even if it isn't a PONG 23:04:25 also 23:04:27 if it isn't sending anything you will time out 23:04:28 that's easily doable 23:04:31 ais523, you are correct 23:04:34 just make it ping the _server_ every now and then 23:04:39 yes, that does work 23:04:43 but why not just respond to pings? 23:04:50 * AnMaster agrees with ais523 23:04:53 true 23:04:59 anyway 23:05:00 meanwhile 23:05:03 esolang suggestions welcome 23:05:16 ais523, sure I get it is kind of hard, but I would like to know the basic operations anyway 23:05:32 AnMaster: there are only two of them IIRC 23:05:36 one is probability rotation 23:05:40 which is almost impossible to explain 23:05:46 and the other? 23:05:48 and the other one is a = a XOR b which is trivial 23:05:51 to explain 23:06:04 ais523, that sounds almost like intercal ;) 23:06:27 heh 23:06:29 ais523, however try to explain them 23:06:31 i think you need a degree in both quantum mechanics and computer science to understand quantum computing 23:06:34 probability rotation is much harder to explain than SELCET 23:06:36 *SELECT 23:06:40 ehird, do you understand it? 23:06:44 hopefully, you know what XOR does though 23:06:45 no 23:06:53 ais523, do you understand it? :) 23:07:08 AnMaster: well, assume that each bit has a certain probablity of being 1 23:07:12 and the rest of the time it's 0 23:07:14 anyway should quantum computers become mainstream it will be hard to fine programmers 23:07:17 obviously 23:07:24 except that these probabilities each have directions 23:07:24 ais523, right 23:07:45 AnMaster: no it wont 23:07:48 you'll just use libraries 23:07:59 it's like saying x86 is hard to find programmers for 23:08:08 because they don't know the low-level microcode 23:08:18 ehird, ah quantum::whatever? 23:08:18 whereas, er, you could just use c or python 23:08:24 AnMaster: Something like that. 23:08:37 AnMaster: let me just show you an example program 23:08:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shor's_algorithm#Quantum_part:_Period-finding_subroutine 23:09:14 ais523, ok that is hard 23:09:24 ais523, Do you understand it? 23:09:32 yes, I implemented it once 23:09:41 on a classical computer, though 23:09:45 ais523, you got a degree in quantum mechanics? 23:09:48 no 23:09:56 then ehird's statement is void 23:09:58 above 23:10:06 i think you need a degree in both quantum mechanics and computer science to understand quantum computing 23:10:11 but I've forgotten bits of it by now 23:10:14 How does an AnMaster know what hyperbole is??? 23:10:22 and even when I knew it I wouldn't really want to have to explain it 23:10:33 ehird, err that can't be correct grammar 23:10:41 bye everyone btw 23:10:48 AnMaster: how does a anmaster know what memes is. 23:10:54 bye ais523 23:11:12 ehird, I don't know lots of memes 23:11:19 so I agree I lack experience there 23:11:25 I know a few 23:12:05 hmm... 23:12:18 if I block 'eval' and '__import__' i think my evaller will be OK 23:12:39 otherwise you could do 23:12:43 eval('__im'+'port__("os").system("rm -rf ~")') 23:14:03 ehird, I would like to see the finished code for that bot when you are done :) 23:14:15 Define 'done'. 23:14:26 ehird, works like you intended it to 23:14:27 Also, it's about as practical as fungot as far as coding style goes. 23:14:28 ehird: maybe the 16-bit opcodes are four bits smaller. 23:14:40 ehird, yeah but this is #esoteric 23:14:45 True. 23:14:46 and remember to show it in #python 23:14:47 ;P 23:14:58 They'll just call me crazy and continue doing sane things. 23:15:04 ehird, hehe :D 23:15:10 Or start giving a critique of the code style. *That'd* be amusing. 23:15:35 Hmm. I think I might ask them about my current problem (How can I catch expressions without a try/exec block) 23:16:43 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:16:47 ehird, well still, I'd like to see the code of a version that can connect and that works. Call it final version or not. 23:16:52 It connects. 23:16:55 it works. :-P 23:16:56 -!- oepy has joined. 23:16:59 Hmm. 23:16:59 ah 23:17:04 It'll only handle about 1000 messages, though. 23:17:05 oepy, echo foo 23:17:06 hi AnMaster 23:17:09 err 23:17:16 As it infinite loops by calling a function from within the same function over and over. 23:17:22 ehird, not that bot? 23:17:24 And python has a small stack as it's not designed for functional programming. 23:17:26 or?! 23:17:29 *echo foo 23:17:30 foo 23:17:34 ehird, ah 23:17:37 *epy 2+2 23:17:38 4 23:17:40 *echo bar quux 23:17:41 bar quux 23:17:46 *epy __import__('sys').stdout.write('I AM EVIL') 23:17:46 *epy jhgf 23:17:46 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:17:50 ah 23:17:55 ehird, I had same idea ;) 23:17:56 an exception, as I haven't implemented error recovery in epy yet 23:18:05 ehird, sorry, just had to test 23:18:11 (It replaces __import__ with no_import, so I got a 'no_import' is not defined error) 23:18:23 hmm 23:18:25 ehird, and the thing I pasted a second before? 23:18:27 I think I can fix the infinite loop problem 23:18:30 AnMaster: No, a second after. 23:18:34 It was ignored as it had already crashed. 23:18:35 ehird, over there yes 23:18:38 [[NameError: name 'no_import' is not defined]] 23:18:41 No. 23:18:43 Freenode thinks so too. 23:18:43 :P 23:18:49 ehird, depends on what server you are on 23:18:56 yeah. 23:19:08 ehird, on the server I'm connected to, I guess it agrees with me 23:19:14 since I got 0.01 seconds lag to server 23:20:06 ehird, have you asked them? 23:20:10 Har. 23:20:13 I'm on a bouncer, so. 23:20:17 rutian is a fast little thing, though. 23:20:24 ehird, hm? 23:20:31 rutian is my server 23:20:32 rutian is the server? 23:20:33 ah 23:20:49 Featuring me, ais523, murphy, hideous, drew, and comex. 23:20:54 Of whom you know 3. 23:20:59 (me, ais523 and comex.) 23:21:21 I own the server (a VPS technically), ais523 is sudoer. 23:21:57 It houses optbot, ais523 and I's IRC connections. 23:21:57 ehird: as one of the data types. 23:22:03 And has a web server. 23:22:06 That is about it. 23:22:25 optbot: ah you're type-level programming? 23:22:25 oerjan: toffoli gate is not quantum. 23:22:40 Top memory user is optbot at 59.9% memory usage 23:22:40 ehird: i guess 23:22:44 due to having every esoteric log, ever, in memory 23:22:46 (256mb total memory on the slice) 23:22:53 Followed by php-cgi, mysqld, apache2 and such at 5-1% 23:24:20 The problem with #python is that they lie to you if they think you're doing something bad. 23:24:26 (e.g. a single-expression exception handler) 23:25:12 whttttttttttt 23:25:19 comex: What. 23:25:24 single-expression exception handler 23:25:36 yes 23:27:13 eval(compile('try:\n raise Exception\nexcept Exception, e:\n print e', '', 'single')) 23:27:14 >:E 23:27:16 *>:D 23:27:19 Cheating, but what the heck 23:27:33 ehird, do you remove duplicate lines from the logs? 23:27:37 such as: 23:27:37 AnMaster: no 23:27:38 hm 23:27:41 huh? 23:27:44 and similiar 23:27:50 ehird, would you really consider that clean, maintainable code? 23:27:53 ^ Of course not, you moron! 23:27:58 heheh 23:28:05 ehird, it relies on implementation details anyway. 23:28:07 ehird, How much memory would removing duplicate lines save? 23:28:07 ^ Youuuuuu bet. 23:28:11 AnMaster: A lot, probably. 23:28:19 'night guyz 23:28:22 ehird, it does rely on implementation details? 23:28:24 -!- Mony has quit ("Ne regrettons pas le passé, ne nous préoccupons pas de l'avenir : le sage vit dans le présent."). 23:28:25 Well 23:28:27 doesn't all code 23:28:28 AnMaster: compile 23:28:32 function 23:28:35 for languages that lack a standard 23:28:49 ehird, don't see it in the paste? 23:28:50 compile 23:28:59 Because I'm modifying it. 23:29:02 Also, there are multiple python impls. 23:29:08 ah yes 23:29:10 jyton 23:29:12 and ppyp 23:29:14 *jython 23:29:15 pypy* 23:29:15 and *pypy 23:29:21 and ironpython 23:29:29 fuck ppyy 23:29:29 (.NET) 23:29:33 pppppppppyyyyyyyyyyy 23:29:44 it promised to be fast but never actually got there 23:29:56 ehird, and I knew the names, just typoed them 23:30:05 me too :X 23:30:06 comex: it's still going... 23:30:12 comex, afaik it is WIP? 23:30:20 ehird: yeah and it'll be finished around the time of dnf or perl6 23:30:28 dnf? 23:30:32 dnf=duke nukem forever 23:30:33 duke nukem forever 23:30:34 ah 23:30:35 right 23:30:57 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 23:31:53 ehird, I hope this isn't production code. 23:32:32 tell him it's for an evil world domination plan, so it's okay 23:33:22 he should be _happy_ it isn't maintainable 23:33:39 -!- oepy has joined. 23:33:43 *epy 2+2 23:33:43 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:33:46 lulz 23:34:08 ehird, bug? 23:34:12 ya 23:34:15 -!- oepy has joined. 23:34:16 *epy 2+2 23:34:17 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:34:21 :D 23:34:28 still bug 23:34:33 unless you wanted that 23:34:42 you're so observant 23:35:00 Captain Obvious at your service. 23:35:06 -!- oepy has joined. 23:35:08 *epy 2+2 23:35:08 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:35:28 -!- oepy has joined. 23:35:31 * ehird considers offering a 'persist' dictionary for *epy that is persistant for a given user 23:35:36 *epy 2+2 23:35:37 4 23:35:42 Oh, shit, 23:35:53 ehird, you didn't want it to work? 23:36:02 It doesn't quite. 23:36:02 *epy 5 + 2 23:36:03 7 23:36:08 seems to be correct? 23:36:21 *epy this is not python 23:36:22 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:36:26 seems to work yes 23:36:33 it doesn't work _on my end_ 23:36:41 ehird, how do you mean? 23:36:57 trust me ok :P 23:37:09 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:37:18 basically 23:37:20 it outputted to my console 23:37:24 because i was using the wrong type of compile 23:38:02 -!- puzzlet has joined. 23:38:03 *epy 7+3 23:38:05 ehird, care to pastebin current code? 23:38:05 oops 23:38:06 -!- oepy has joined. 23:38:09 puzzlet != oepy 23:38:10 hi ehird 23:38:11 *epy 7+3 23:38:11 10 23:38:15 *epy 1/0 23:38:15 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:38:17 D: 23:38:24 AnMaster: in a sec 23:38:28 ehird, thanks 23:38:45 Meanwhile, here's a flood of the current epy code: [[ 'epy': (lambda s, *a: 23:38:45 (lambda code: eval( 23:38:46 compile( 23:38:46 'try:\n s(repr(eval(compile(code, "", "eval"), {}, {})))\n' + 23:38:46 'except object, e:\n s(e.__class__.__name__ + ": " + str(e))', 23:38:48 '', 'exec'), 23:38:50 {'s': s, 'code': code}, {}))(' '.join(a).replace('eval', 'no_eval').replace('__import__', 'no_import')) 23:38:53 ),]] 23:39:10 what does compile do? 23:39:16 compiles a string into a python code object 23:39:19 ah 23:39:26 ehird, that works around missing blocks? 23:39:33 ya :-P 23:39:45 ehird, and is cpython specific? 23:39:49 no 23:39:50 :-P 23:40:04 ehird, you said implementation specific before? 23:40:18 no, habnabit did 23:40:21 not sure what he meant 23:40:28 ehird, ask him? 23:40:41 no, i bother him enough daily :-P 23:40:47 i think he might have op access 23:40:50 ehird, with similar bad code? 23:40:56 AnMaster: no, just stupid questions :D 23:40:59 ah 23:41:36 -!- oepy has joined. 23:41:38 *epy 1/0 23:41:39 ZeroDivisionError: integer division or modulo by zero 23:41:44 TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL 23:41:49 B) 23:41:54 *epy i am a green butt 23:41:55 SyntaxError: invalid syntax (, line 1) 23:42:01 *epy print '__import__ lol' 23:42:01 SyntaxError: invalid syntax (, line 1) 23:42:04 oh 23:42:05 right 23:42:08 *epy '__import__ lol' 23:42:09 'no_import lol' 23:42:12 *epy 'eval lol' 23:42:13 'no_eval lol' 23:42:42 *epy eval('__i'+'mport__("sys").stdout.write("MWAHAHA")') 23:42:43 NameError: name 'no_eval' is not defined 23:42:44 ... 23:42:46 hm. 23:42:48 ah. 23:43:15 ok 23:43:21 now i give that persistence 23:43:54 AnMaster: a reasonable interface would be persist('name', 'value') and persisted['user']['name'] 23:43:55 agreed? 23:44:05 ehird, can't really say for python 23:44:16 well, that's a pretty general interface 23:44:35 ehird, if persisted is some hash array I guess so 23:44:41 yes 23:44:45 name would be a variable name? 23:44:47 persisted = {user: {name: value}, ...} 23:44:49 and kinda 23:44:50 you'd just do 23:44:54 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:44:57 *epy persist('hello', 2) 23:45:01 then to get it back 23:45:08 *epy persisted['ehird']['hello'] 23:45:16 that means you can share too 23:45:25 *epy persist('my_awesome_func', lambda x: x+2) 23:45:27 then someone could do 23:45:35 * epy persisted['ehird']['my_awesome_func'](3) 23:45:48 ah hm 23:45:56 itd be nice to omit the user, but then anyone could mess up others' stuff 23:45:58 hm 23:46:02 perhaps i'll add a shortcut 23:46:09 my('foo') -> persisted[your_name]['foo'] 23:46:11 so 23:46:17 *epy persist('hello', 2) 23:46:18 ehird, will you import some system libraries? 23:46:21 or whatever 23:46:23 *epy my('hello')*2 23:46:27 I don't know what is needed for math stuff 23:46:28 AnMaster: Unlikely, too many holes. 23:46:30 Ah. 23:46:30 like sqrt 23:46:31 and such 23:46:33 I could import math, yes. 23:47:02 ehird, maybe something like perl's sandbox stuff, forgot the name of it 23:47:13 or doesn't python have that? 23:47:21 Python doesn't have sandboxing features, no. 23:47:24 Thus my hack. 23:47:26 ah 23:48:01 well I guess some math stuff would be nice. And possibly some other stuff, but I don't know enough python to say what 23:48:12 for erlang for example I would allow lists module 23:48:23 since that have stuff like map() and foldl() and such 23:48:37 but that is hardly same paradigm 23:48:53 and as I said I don't know python enough to know what would be nice to have, yet secure 23:49:25 ehird, I'm sure you can figure out what could be needed/useful 23:49:41 Well, single-expression python is an esolang. 23:49:45 I don't think it needs much :-P 23:50:33 ehird, sqrt/sin/cos/tan/asin/acos/atan/pow and similar 23:50:51 yes 23:50:54 ehird, possibly some way to map stuff on arrays? 23:50:56 the math module has all of those 23:50:58 or whatever python use 23:50:59 map is a builtin 23:51:02 ah 23:51:08 ehird, foldl? 23:51:13 foldr too 23:51:14 yes 23:51:16 well 23:51:16 no 23:51:19 just foldr, i think 23:51:20 called reduce 23:52:05 ehird, zip? 23:52:09 yes 23:52:10 a builtin 23:52:23 mapfoldl? 23:52:42 " mapfold combines the operations of map/2 and foldl/3 into one pass. An example, summing the elements in a list and double them at the same time:" 23:52:45 *epy reduce((lambda x, y : x-y), [1,2,3]) 23:52:55 ah 23:52:57 oerjan: oepy is being upgraded 23:53:52 ehird, well? 23:53:59 AnMaster: It's unneeded. 23:54:02 Just use map and reduce. 23:54:02 :-P 23:54:07 ehird, mapreduce too? :) 23:54:12 Shut up it's an esolang. 23:54:15 which is arguably different 23:54:22 than python's map and reduce 23:55:03 ehird, filter on list? 23:55:14 SHUTUPITSANESOLANG :| 23:55:17 And it's called "filter". 23:55:21 ehird, right 23:55:36 -!- oepy has joined. 23:55:38 *epy set('a', 1) 23:55:38 a function that returns either true or false to map 23:55:38 AttributeError: 'dict' object has no attribute 'a' 23:55:42 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:55:47 *epy reduce((lambda x, y : x-y), [1,2,3]) 23:55:50 argh 23:55:53 oerjan, it isn't connected 23:55:53 lulz. 23:55:59 -!- oepy has joined. 23:56:00 *epy set('a', 1) 23:56:01 None 23:56:02 argh 23:56:03 *epy reduce((lambda x, y : x-y), [1,2,3]) 23:56:04 -4 23:56:06 *epy get('a') 23:56:07 1 23:56:12 ah it's foldl 23:56:13 *epy look('ehird') 23:56:18 ... 23:56:18 *epy look('ehird') 23:56:19 {'a': 1} 23:56:23 oerjan, oh? 23:56:25 *epy look('AnMaster') 23:56:26 {} 23:56:35 *epy look('ehird').__setitem__('a', 2) 23:56:36 (1-2)-3, not 1-(2-3) 23:56:36 AttributeError: '' object has no attribute '__setitem__' 23:56:39 good 23:56:47 peah 23:56:52 yeah* 23:57:06 AnMaster: can you *epy get('a', user='ehird') please 23:57:15 *epy get('a', user='ehird') 23:57:16 1 23:57:20 *epy get('a') 23:57:21 KeyError: 'a' 23:57:33 * ehird improves a bit 23:57:34 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:57:37 ehird, does this allow storing functions as well as values? 23:57:39 or? 23:57:41 yes 23:57:42 hmm 23:57:45 * ehird makes nice syntactic sugar: 23:57:48 set(a=1) 23:57:49 ehird, so python have first class functions? 23:57:53 AnMaster: yah 23:57:57 nice 23:58:02 of course it does 23:58:03 look at my paste 23:58:04 just a shame with the indention 23:58:05 :P 23:58:11 i couldn't have done that without first class functions up the wazoo 23:58:19 ehird, you didn't paste the last code 23:58:21 still waiting for that 23:58:22 yah 23:58:26 but even just the old one 23:58:38 hmm 2008-10-11: 00:00:36 -!- oepy has joined. 00:00:39 *epy set(b=set(a=2)) 00:00:40 ('b', ('a', 2)) 00:00:47 oops 00:00:52 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:01:02 -!- oepy has joined. 00:01:03 *epy set(a=set(b=2)) 00:01:04 2 00:01:08 *epy get(a) 00:01:08 NameError: name 'a' is not defined 00:01:11 *epy get('a') 00:01:12 2 00:01:13 *epy get('b') 00:01:14 2 00:01:17 *epy look('ehird') 00:01:18 {'a': 2, 'b': 2} 00:01:23 *epy look('ehird').__setitem__('b', 3) 00:01:24 AttributeError: 'user-view' object has no attribute '__setitem__' 00:01:30 Hooray. 00:01:32 *epy math 00:01:33 00:01:38 lulz os x paths 00:01:41 *epy dir(math) 00:01:42 ['__doc__', '__file__', '__name__', 'acos', 'asin', 'atan', 'atan2', 'ceil', 'cos', 'cosh', 'degrees', 'e', 'exp', 'fabs', 'floor', 'fmod', 'frexp', 'hypot', 'ldexp', 'log', 'log10', 'modf', 'pi', 'pow', 'radians', 'sin', 'sinh', 'sqrt', 'tan', 'tanh'] 00:01:46 Oh, damn: 00:01:49 *epy globals() 00:01:50 {'__builtins__': {'IndexError': , 'all': , 'help': Type help() for interactive help, or help(object) for help about object., 'vars': , 'SyntaxError': , 'unicode': , 'UnicodeDecodeError': , 'isinstance': , 'copyright': Copyright (c) 2001-2006 Python Software Foundation. 00:01:57 *epy __builtins__ 00:01:57 {'IndexError': , 'all': , 'help': Type help() for interactive help, or help(object) for help about object., 'vars': , 'SyntaxError': , 'unicode': , 'UnicodeDecodeError': , 'isinstance': , 'copyright': Copyright (c) 2001-2006 Python Software Foundation. 00:02:05 Hm 00:02:08 Neat. 00:02:16 * epy math.sqrt(3497234) 00:02:18 *epy math.sqrt(3497234) 00:02:19 1870.0893026804897 00:02:22 ehird, what did you say "oh damn" for? 00:02:40 *epy __builtins__.__import__ 00:02:40 *epy math.pow(3497234,37863827648) 00:02:40 AttributeError: 'dict' object has no attribute 'no_import' 00:02:41 OverflowError: math range error 00:02:43 AnMaster: I thought there was a security hole. 00:02:44 *epy math.pow(3497234,378637648) 00:02:45 OverflowError: math range error 00:02:45 AnMaster: Anyway, give it a spin. 00:02:47 blergh 00:02:53 *epy math.pow(3497234, 378637648) 00:02:53 OverflowError: math range error 00:02:55 *epy math.pow(3497234, 3786376) 00:02:56 OverflowError: math range error 00:02:59 stupid 00:02:59 SHUT UP AnMaster 00:03:00 *epy 3497234**378637648 00:03:05 ehird, ah 00:03:13 math.pow is for floats 00:03:15 however 00:03:17 ehird, so it doesn't like inf? 00:03:20 the above just locked up oepy i think 00:03:21 which would have been the valid number 00:03:22 *epy 00:03:24 *epy 2 00:03:26 yah 00:03:28 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:03:28 ehird, yep 00:03:33 don't do that 00:03:33 :P 00:03:40 -!- oepy has joined. 00:03:45 ehird, but in a C program that pow produces inf after a few seconds 00:03:48 so that is very strange 00:03:50 but it hurts when i don't do that 00:03:51 AnMaster: no 00:03:53 that just means it uses bignums 00:03:56 pyhton 00:03:59 ehird, err floats 00:04:01 so it tries to get the full answer 00:04:02 AnMaster: no 00:04:05 x**y is integer in python 00:04:08 but it uses bignums 00:04:10 so it just sits there 00:04:10 ehird, for math.pow it would be floats 00:04:12 happily calculating it 00:04:13 forever. 00:04:15 ehird, so it should be inf 00:04:18 not math error 00:04:24 just positive inf 00:04:30 AnMaster. 00:04:34 MATH.POW IN PYTHON TAKES FLOATS 00:04:37 IT ERRORED BECAUSE YOU GAVE IT INTS 00:04:39 ehird, ah 00:04:46 so it doesn't cast implicitly? 00:04:46 like I _said the first time_ 00:04:57 no, because pow is BUILT IN TO THE LANGUAGE for ints 00:05:00 *epy 2**3 00:05:00 8 00:05:12 *epy help(math.pow) 00:05:15 oops 00:05:15 ehird, well C would cast it implicitly 00:05:16 so 00:05:17 that displayed on my console 00:05:18 lmao 00:05:21 anyway 00:05:21 AnMaster: 00:05:24 you don't understand 00:05:30 math.pow is there for when you want range errors 00:05:34 instead of infinite hang 00:05:35 ehird, how should I know I need to do (float)874384 00:05:35 as with ** 00:05:36 None 00:05:43 ehird, and when I want inf? 00:05:46 instead of either 00:05:47 AnMaster 00:05:54 stop talking because you're talking nonsense. 00:05:56 :\ 00:06:09 ehird, no I'm not. If I work with double that should return inf 00:06:17 AnMaster 00:06:18 shut up 00:06:21 if the floating point confirms to IEEE 00:06:31 YOU WEREN'T DOING FLOATING POINTS 00:06:34 YOU HAD NO .0 ANYWHERE 00:06:37 YOU PASSED INTEGERS 00:06:40 SO IT TREATED THEM AS INTEGERS 00:06:43 *epy math.pow(3497234.0, 3786376.0) 00:06:43 OverflowError: math range error 00:06:44 BECAUSE YOU GAVE IT INTEGERS 00:06:45 is that better? 00:06:48 YES 00:06:54 it gives same error though 00:06:56 instead of inf 00:06:57 :/ 00:06:58 AnMaster: BECAUSE 00:06:59 MATH 00:07:00 .POW 00:07:00 IS 00:07:01 FOR 00:07:01 WHEN 00:07:02 YOU 00:07:03 EXPLICITLY 00:07:04 WANT 00:07:06 OVERFLOWS 00:07:08 OTHERWISE 00:07:10 YOU 00:07:12 USE 00:07:14 ** 00:07:16 LIKE 00:07:16 ehird, and when I want explicit inf I should use ** 00:07:17 ah 00:07:17 ok 00:07:18 I 00:07:22 HAVE 00:07:24 SAID 00:07:24 so not just for integers 00:07:26 5 00:07:28 GAJILLION 00:07:29 like you seemed to say 00:07:30 TIMES 00:07:32 THE 00:07:34 END 00:07:36 5 gajillion and 1th time lucky 00:07:52 *epy 497234.0 ** 3786376.0 00:07:53 OverflowError: (34, 'Result too large') 00:07:56 um 00:08:01 :/??? 00:08:20 ehird, care to enlighten me why that didn't give inf then? :/ 00:08:21 hi ehird 00:08:36 hi comex 00:08:48 *epy 1.0 / 0.0 00:08:48 ZeroDivisionError: float division 00:08:50 *epy set(a=3) 00:08:50 3 00:08:52 ok 00:08:57 that should have been NaN iirc 00:09:00 comex: plz do '*epy get('a', user='ehird')' 00:09:08 ehird, How do I get a floating point NaN in python? 00:09:13 since division with 0 didn't 00:09:34 You don't. 00:09:48 ehird, it doesn't support it? instead throwing an exception 00:09:49 ? 00:09:51 Well: 00:09:56 *epy 1e300**2 00:09:56 OverflowError: (34, 'Result too large') 00:09:59 Sounds like Erlang then 00:10:00 Hm. 00:10:00 Ah. 00:10:04 *epy float('nan') 00:10:05 nan 00:10:11 *epy float('inf') 00:10:12 inf 00:10:13 *epy float('-inf') 00:10:14 -inf 00:10:20 ehird, well, That still means it isn't IEEE 754 00:10:26 AnMaster: So what. 00:10:49 Incidentally: 00:10:53 ehird, meaning implementing FPDP in a python implemented befunge would be a pain in the arse for example 00:10:55 [[Sorry, it has not. Providing a consistent 754 story across platforms is a 00:10:55 pain in the ass, because none of this behavior is covered by C89, and every 00:10:55 vendor does it a different way. So it requires a large pile of platform 00:10:55 #ifdef'ed code, and platform experts to write and contribute that stuff. But 00:10:55 so far, nobody has volunteered any actual work (talk, yes; code, no).]] -- Tim Peters, 2001 00:11:21 ehird, well problem solved, C99 got a macro to check for it 00:11:44 AnMaster: "C99" != "problem solved". 00:11:51 ehird, also it could use a close mapping to hardware, so that if the platform had it, then it could just use it 00:12:00 AnMaster: Python is a very-high-level-language. 00:12:03 if it didn't, it would use whatever else the platform have 00:12:08 "close mapping to hardware" == no. 00:12:18 ehird, But does it need to abstract everything? 00:12:36 sometimes yes 00:12:38 other times: no 00:12:43 yes. 00:12:45 Meanwhile. 00:12:47 *epy Infinity 00:12:47 NameError: name 'Infinity' is not defined 00:12:51 *epy Infinity/Infinity 00:12:52 NameError: name 'Infinity' is not defined 00:12:53 (lag...) 00:12:58 ah 00:12:59 no lag 00:13:06 I love it when ehird says something for the first time followed by "like I have said 5 gajillion times". Maybe. 00:13:15 hm 00:13:16 I didn't say it for the first time, thanks.) 00:13:24 oepy, says "hi" on ctcp ping 00:13:24 hi AnMaster 00:13:26 interesting 00:13:28 ah well 00:13:33 oepy says hi on all /msg. 00:13:34 hi ehird 00:13:37 ehird, ah right 00:14:15 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:14:23 * ehird pastes current oepy code 00:14:27 -!- oepy has joined. 00:14:38 *epy math.exp(1000) 00:14:39 OverflowError: math range error 00:14:41 http://rafb.net/p/P3Zfd898.html 00:14:44 http://docs.python.org/library/fpectl.html 00:14:49 ehird, that says it should be Inf 00:14:50 Things needed: actual persistence, etc. 00:14:56 but it seems oepy disagree? 00:14:56 hi AnMaster 00:14:57 AnMaster: that's 2.6 00:15:00 ehird, ah ok 00:15:18 ehird, nice and readable code btw 00:15:24 unusually readable for python 00:15:25 Hardly. 00:15:36 It's pretty-looking, but very unreadable shite. 00:15:41 ehird, kind of lisp-like 00:15:42 Tracking down bugs is a nightmare. 00:15:52 AnMaster: It's only pretty if you can't actually read it (say if you don't know python). 00:15:54 but with mixed notation 00:16:09 If you can read it, it's awful to try and understand & write. 00:16:15 'echo': (lambda s, *a: s(' '.join(a))),seems pretty clear to me 00:16:22 it echos it's argument 00:16:32 *echo foo 00:16:33 foo 00:16:38 AnMaster: Hoorah! One line is readable! Therefore the whole program is readable! 00:16:44 ehird, of course not 00:16:52 some parts is actually a bit hard to read 00:17:07 Now if you'll excuse me I have to try and _write code in this thing_. Which is not easy. Because it's ugly. 00:17:13 (match(r':([^!]+)\S* PRIVMSG ((oepy) .*|(#esoteric) :.*oepy.*)', txt), (lambda a, _, b, c: 00:17:13 (lambda x: socket.send('PRIVMSG %s :%s\r\n' % x))( 00:17:13 {'oepy': (a, 'hi'), '#esoteric': ('#esoteric', 'hi '+a)}[b or c] 00:17:13 ) 00:17:13 )), 00:17:14 hi AnMaster 00:17:15 for example 00:17:38 AnMaster: Or how about how variables and their definitions are about 20 lines apart due to the lambda hack I use. 00:17:59 ehird, not very hard 00:18:00 Or the useless use of map and such because it's the shortest way to write it as such with such constraints. 00:18:16 Unless you know python just don't even start to say it's pretty. 00:18:31 ehird, I think it is pretty lispy/schemish code 00:18:34 if you see what I mean 00:18:48 in the general structure 00:18:49 It takes the same kind of structure out of neccessity. It has none of the elegance. 00:19:02 ehird, it is less elegant I agree 00:19:08 but it is better than plain python 00:19:09 ;P 00:19:11 night 00:21:35 ehird, why aren't you using python 2.6? It was released October 1 it seems 00:21:47 Ain't broke, don't fix. 00:21:54 i'll upgrade when i need to. 00:21:57 ehird, ok, valid 00:23:42 ehird, "Alternate syntax for catching exceptions: except TypeError as exc." 00:23:46 sounds like no block? 00:23:47 or? 00:23:50 no. 00:24:06 Ok, sorry then 00:24:15 * ehird gets idea 00:24:25 it was 2.6 anyway 00:25:52 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:26:02 -!- oepy has joined. 00:26:12 *epy set(test=lambda *a: 'hi') 00:26:13 at 0xd13b0> 00:26:19 *cmd test 00:26:20 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:26:22 oops 00:26:26 Python 2.6 introduces a convention for user-specific site directories. The directory varies depending on the platform: 00:26:26 * Unix and Mac OS X: ~/.local/ 00:26:27 ugh 00:26:32 that is used for something else here 00:26:36 by another program 00:26:45 I think ~/.local/ is a generic dir. 00:27:06 ehird, yes it seems to contain trash for example 00:27:15 but I hope the use some subdir 00:27:31 Within this directory, there will be version-specific subdirectories, such as lib/python2.6/site-packages on Unix/Mac OS and Python26/site-packages on Windows. 00:27:32 ah 00:27:33 good 00:28:14 -!- oepy has joined. 00:28:20 *epy set(test=lambda *a: 'hi') 00:28:21 at 0xd13b0> 00:28:24 *cmd test test 00:28:28 *test 00:28:32 f. 00:31:14 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:31:25 -!- oepy has joined. 00:31:26 *epy set(test=lambda *a: 'hi') 00:31:27 at 0xd13b0> 00:31:29 *cmd test test 00:31:30 *test 00:31:37 bumwrap. 00:31:47 Bumwrap I say. 00:32:07 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:32:18 -!- oepy has joined. 00:32:41 *epy set(test=lambda *a: 'hi') 00:32:42 at 0xd13b0> 00:32:43 *cmd test test 00:32:45 Stupid lagbot. 00:32:49 d 00:32:51 Yay. 00:32:53 *test 00:32:53 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:33:04 -!- oepy has joined. 00:33:07 *epy set(test=lambda *a: 'hi') 00:33:08 at 0xd13b0> 00:33:11 *cmd test test 00:33:14 *test 00:33:15 'hi' 00:33:20 kickin rad 00:34:57 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:35:08 -!- oepy has joined. 00:35:11 *epy set(test=lambda *a: pr('Hello, world!')) 00:35:11 at 0xd1270> 00:35:13 *cmd test test 00:35:16 *test 00:35:16 NameError: global name 'pr' is not defined 00:35:24 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:35:34 -!- oepy has joined. 00:35:38 *epy set(test=lambda *a: pr('Hello, world!')) 00:35:38 at 0xd12b0> 00:36:01 *cmd test test 00:36:04 *test 00:36:05 NameError: global name 'setitem' is not defined 00:36:12 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:36:22 -!- oepy has joined. 00:36:24 *epy set(test=lambda *a: pr('Hello, world!')) 00:36:25 at 0xd12b0> 00:36:34 *cmd test test 00:36:38 *test 00:36:39 'Hello, world!' 00:36:43 oops 00:37:00 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:37:10 -!- oepy has joined. 00:37:11 *epy set(test=lambda a: pr('Hello, '+a+'!')) 00:37:12 at 0xd12f0> 00:37:14 *cmd test test 00:37:16 *test 00:37:16 TypeError: () takes exactly 1 argument (0 given) 00:37:27 *epy set(test=lambda x='world', *a: pr('Hello, '+x+'!')) 00:37:28 at 0xd1270> 00:37:30 *cmd test test 00:37:32 *test 00:37:32 Hello, world! 00:37:35 *test a 00:37:35 Hello, a! 00:37:37 *test a b c 00:37:37 Hello, a! 00:37:46 *epy set(test=lambda *a: pr('Hello, '+' '.join(a)+'!')) 00:37:46 at 0xd13b0> 00:37:48 *cmd test test 00:37:50 *test a b c 00:37:50 Hello, a b c! 00:37:53 AnMaster: Discuss. 00:37:59 fizzie: Mr botter #2, discuss. 00:38:00 discuss what? 00:38:18 AnMaster: The workage of the above. 00:39:02 ehird, what exact aspect? 00:39:07 All'fit. 00:39:08 storing first class functions yes 00:39:11 nice that it works 00:39:18 No. 00:39:20 no idea if it persists across sessions 00:39:22 The 'command defining' aspect. 00:39:23 :-P 00:39:34 *test a b c 00:39:35 Hello, a b c! 00:39:42 ehird, it is global for all users? 00:39:48 yes. 00:39:50 what if I define my own colliding one? 00:39:55 what one will be used 00:40:01 Yours. 00:40:06 or is set no longer local to user? 00:40:07 Just like fungot. 00:40:07 ehird: oh weh mir will bei meiner fnord sein 00:40:17 ehird, ? 00:40:22 ^help 00:40:23 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 00:40:31 ^def test bf ,[.,] 00:40:31 Defined. 00:40:32 *epy set(test=lambda *a: pr('Hi, '+' '.join(a)+'!')) 00:40:32 ^test hi 00:40:33 hi 00:40:33 at 0xd1270> 00:40:34 fungot: ich weiss nicht, was soll es bedeuten 00:40:35 oerjan: rsa gives 200k for getting the first instruction ( byte 0), ( n+n/ fnord/ fnord 00:40:35 ^def test fb 00:40:35 Usage: ^def 00:40:38 ^def test bf 00:40:38 Usage: ^def 00:40:40 ^def test bf . 00:40:40 Defined. 00:40:40 *cmd test test 00:40:41 ^test a 00:40:41 . 00:40:43 *test 00:40:43 Hello, ! 00:40:45 *cmd test test 00:40:46 *test 00:40:47 Hi, ! 00:40:49 ah 00:40:50 right 00:41:03 *cmd test foo 00:41:05 *foo 00:41:09 err? 00:41:13 *cmd foo test 00:41:15 *foo 00:41:16 Hi, ! 00:41:18 ah 00:41:23 *cmd cmd test 00:41:25 *foo 00:41:25 *cmd 00:41:25 Hi, ! 00:41:27 yay 00:41:32 *foo 00:41:32 Hi, ! 00:41:33 ehird, you may want to prevent that 00:41:34 *cmd 00:41:37 hm 00:41:38 wait? 00:41:46 *cmd epy test 00:41:48 *epy 00:41:49 SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing (, line 0) 00:41:52 oh well 00:41:54 worth a try 00:42:13 ehird, very nice 00:42:24 ehird, question: How do I unset a value 00:42:41 :p 00:42:43 *epy get('foo') 00:42:44 KeyError: 'foo' 00:42:45 Hmm. 00:42:47 Ah. 00:42:49 Well. 00:42:50 ehird, test 00:42:51 You don't. 00:42:52 an unsettling question 00:42:52 would be it 00:42:58 *epy get('test') 00:42:58 at 0xd1270> 00:43:02 *epy remove('test') 00:43:03 NameError: name 'remove' is not defined 00:43:04 AnMaster: Just set it to None. 00:43:05 :-P 00:43:16 *epy set(test=None) 00:43:17 None 00:43:18 *test 00:43:19 KeyError: 'foo' 00:43:21 hehe 00:43:24 *foo 00:43:25 TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not callable 00:43:26 ah 00:43:36 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:43:42 ehird, is it possible to make a command that maps to some other user's function? 00:43:46 AnMaster: Yes. 00:43:54 *epy set(thing=get('thing', user='otherguy')) 00:43:58 *cmd thing thing 00:44:07 ehird, that maps indirectly 00:44:11 Yes it does. 00:44:14 -!- oepy has joined. 00:44:17 and would it really work if the original user changed thing 00:44:20 ? 00:44:24 Then: *epy set(thing=lambda *a: get('thing', user='otherguy')(*a)) 00:44:31 ah right 00:45:07 ehird, can you use lambda to make an accumulator like in scheme? 00:45:08 *epy set(a=2) 00:45:09 2 00:45:13 *epy unset(a) 00:45:13 NameError: name 'unset' is not defined 00:45:19 oh./ 00:45:32 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:45:34 ehird, that is some local stuff like define and set! 00:45:40 AnMaster: yes, with a hack 00:45:43 -!- oepy has joined. 00:45:44 ehird, oh? 00:45:59 Sec. 00:46:30 (lambda n: (lambda x: (lambda i: (x.__setitem__(0,x[0]+i), x[0])[1]))([n])) 00:46:32 Should do it. 00:46:37 *epy set(accgen=(lambda n: (lambda x: (lambda i: (x.__setitem__(0,x[0]+i), x[0])[1]))([n]))) 00:46:38 at 0xd1270> 00:46:44 *epy set(myacc=accgen(5)) 00:46:44 NameError: name 'accgen' is not defined 00:46:49 *epy set(myacc=get('accgen')(5)) 00:46:49 at 0xd1770> 00:46:55 *epy myacc 00:46:56 NameError: name 'myacc' is not defined 00:46:59 *epy get('myacc') 00:46:59 at 0xd1770> 00:47:00 why array? 00:47:03 *epy get('myacc')(5) 00:47:03 10 00:47:05 *epy get('myacc')(5) 00:47:06 15 00:47:11 ehird, nice! 00:47:14 AnMaster: No explicit way to access a var from the specific scope. 00:47:15 but horrible syntax for it 00:47:22 ehird, ah hm 00:47:22 ok 00:47:26 And yes, well, lambda is discouraged 00:47:28 Python is imperative. 00:47:33 ehird, which is sad IMO 00:47:45 AnMaster: Python is an imperative languag. 00:47:47 Why is that sad? 00:47:58 It just happens to have a few functional features which I abuse by using for everything. 00:48:01 It's just a novelty. 00:48:05 ehird, well it had great potential for being a good mix of functional and imperative 00:48:09 no 00:48:10 it really didn't 00:48:12 throwing away that is sad 00:48:18 it didn't 00:48:27 *epy unset('myacc') 00:48:28 None 00:48:29 *epy get('myacc') 00:48:30 KeyError: 'myacc' 00:49:13 ehird, nice 00:49:16 now you need uncommand 00:49:24 Nah. 00:49:24 and then some way to persist across sessions 00:49:44 ehird, can you serialise python into sqlite db or something? 00:50:01 I can serialize the code by saving it as a string and then pickle the lists, sure. 00:50:10 *epy set(reverse=lambda *a: pr(' '.join(a)[::-1])) 00:50:10 at 0xd1530> 00:50:13 *cmd reverse reverse 00:50:14 ehird, ok that sounds horrible 00:50:18 *reverse abcd efg hi 00:50:19 ih gfe dcba 00:50:20 AnMaster: Not really. 00:50:32 ehird, it will work for " at 0xd1530>" too? 00:50:35 and similiar 00:50:39 similar* 00:50:54 AnMaster: no, which is why i'd save the code as a string 00:51:07 ehird, ah you mean store it originally as a string too? 00:51:09 right 00:51:18 yeah. 00:51:21 well this have been most interesting, but now I really really need to sleep 00:51:29 AnMaster: shall i paste the code first? 00:51:34 I hope this bot will have a bright future 00:51:36 ehird, yes thanks 00:51:40 http://rafb.net/p/8g7uKm57.html 00:51:43 I like to scare python fans with it! 00:51:54 also, i'll probably get it running sufficiently and then consider it finished save for bugfixes :-P 00:51:59 maybe write a bot I can actually maintain 00:52:07 still, i'm proud of what i have 00:52:41 hmm 00:52:43 should I paste that into #python 00:52:48 ehird, you are right to be proud 00:52:49 :) 00:52:56 * ehird shows #python it 00:53:01 ehird, you put the fun back in python 00:53:02 ! 00:53:16 pyfun 00:53:59 ehird: awesome 00:53:59 Storlek: Awesome heart attacks! 00:54:01 err 00:54:04 ehird: no more LISP for you! :p 00:54:09 ehird: no more LISP for you! :p 00:54:10 omfg 00:54:11 oh 00:54:12 you're in there 00:54:13 XD 00:54:14 was what I menat to paste yes 00:54:18 ehird, I joined before 00:54:31 when you talked about asking that channel first time 00:54:35 ehird, to see reactions 00:54:42 hee 00:54:47 ehird, I don't normally idle there 00:55:00 ehird, eh. 00:55:00 unfortunately it'll only survive for about 1000 lines 00:55:00 due to the recursion loop :( 00:55:01 huh? 00:55:01 Surprise surprise 00:55:06 really? 00:55:11 AnMaster: look at the this(this,persisted,extra_cmds) 00:55:16 it calls it recursively for every line 00:55:18 + small stack = ... 00:55:20 ehird, you mean python doesn't have tail recursion? 00:55:43 no. 00:55:47 it's an imperative language. 00:56:40 ehird, but even some C compilers optimise tail recursion 00:56:44 I'm pretty sure of that 00:56:54 gcc does, yes. 00:56:56 ehird, and C is much much more imperative than python 00:56:57 But no sane program relies on it. 00:57:06 ehird, iirc MSVC does too 00:57:10 but not sure about that 00:57:19 ehird, possibly also icc 00:57:57 maybe there is some other way to iterate within an expression? 00:58:21 yes 00:58:26 habnabit_: map(f, iter(lambda: True, False)) 00:58:33 or i could add a tailcall trampoline 00:58:55 ehird, um that is serious python-fu 00:59:05 Yes. 00:59:07 so it went over my head 00:59:29 of python understanding 00:59:35 ehird, explain please :) 00:59:42 map is a map function. 00:59:49 iter on a lambda makes an iterator 00:59:57 -!- slereah has joined. 01:00:10 returning (value,is_at_end) 01:00:16 so that yields true 01:00:16 always 01:00:18 then maps over it 01:00:18 always 01:00:50 haha 01:00:52 one problem though: doesn't it try to collect the results? 01:00:54 at that last comment 01:01:05 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:01:29 oerjan, it should, meaning non-tail recursion 01:01:33 oerjan: yes, so? 01:01:43 well a little memory leak 01:01:52 no 01:01:56 map would return an iterator 01:02:05 which would throw away its value whenever it yield 01:02:06 s 01:02:06 also 01:02:07 Storlek: I don't see any reason to be proud of achieving a goal that isn't worth accomplishing. 01:02:10 ^ boring fuck 01:02:12 ehird, where's the bot? I can circumvent that security easily enough. 01:02:14 interesting 01:02:39 RUN, RUN AWAY 01:03:07 -!- habnabit_ has joined. 01:03:14 oh no 01:03:19 *epy 2 + 2 01:03:19 4 01:03:30 ehird is screwed :D 01:03:33 oepy: Say hi. 01:03:34 hi ehird 01:03:36 yes I think so too 01:03:37 No. To habnabit_. 01:03:43 ehird, you forgot to code that 01:03:44 *epy type(unset) 01:03:45 01:03:51 *epy unset.func_globals 01:03:52 {'__builtins__': , '__name__': '__main__', '__file__': 'onelineesobot.py', '__doc__': None} 01:04:00 (Originally it was one line...) 01:04:10 *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__import__('os').fork 01:04:11 AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'no_import' 01:04:16 Hmm. 01:04:17 Ha. 01:04:22 *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__import__ 01:04:23 AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'no_import' 01:04:26 hehehe 01:04:29 :) 01:04:32 *epy vars(unset.func_globals['__builtins__']) 01:04:32 {'IndexError': , 'all': , 'help': Type help() for interactive help, or help(object) for help about object., 'vars': , 'SyntaxError': , 'unicode': , 'UnicodeDecodeError': , 'isinstance': , 'copyright': Copyright (c) 2001-2006 Python Software Foundation. 01:04:36 ok not _that_ screwed :D 01:04:40 *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__') 01:04:40 01:04:41 er 01:04:44 oh. 01:04:47 oh dear. 01:04:47 hah 01:04:58 *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__')('sys').stdout.write('Hmm. I wonder how to fix this.') 01:04:59 None 01:05:16 habnabit_: I don't suppose you have any bright ideas? :-P 01:05:32 I think python need something like that sandbox thingy perl have 01:05:34 Sure. Don't use eval. 01:05:37 would be useful to ehird 01:06:01 habnabit_: You have a better suggestion? :-P 01:06:16 i'd quite like the wonderful people of this place to experience the insanity that single-expression python gives. 01:06:17 ehird, writing a python interpreter in lambda-style python? 01:06:20 Make a FORTRAN interpreter instead. 01:06:24 AnMaster: Harsh, man. Harsh. 01:06:25 Or s-expression. 01:06:31 ehird, sorry 01:06:35 habnabit_: Pfft. :-P 01:06:40 I could try pypy. 01:06:42 Errrr. 01:06:45 Not FORTRAN. 01:06:50 ehird, embed pypy? 01:06:52 What's it called? The stack-based language. 01:06:56 FORTH 01:06:59 ehird, written as single line lambda? 01:07:11 habnabit_: Or anything on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list... 01:07:12 FORTH probably is what you mean indeed 01:07:12 Yes. FORTH. 01:07:19 or what ehird said 01:07:20 after all 01:07:25 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++. 01:07:25 . 01:07:39 (fungot happens to be written in befunge.) 01:07:39 ehird: except you have to 01:07:41 ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>. 01:07:41 . 01:07:44 hm? 01:07:52 (but that is brainfuck.) 01:07:56 yes it is 01:07:59 I was just wondering 01:08:01 FORTH would be a pain in python, though. 01:08:02 ^bf +++++[>++++<-]>. 01:08:02 . 01:08:05 It can directly access the memory. 01:08:06 ^bf +++++[>++++++<-]>. 01:08:06 . 01:08:17 ^bf +++++[>++++++<-]>++++. 01:08:17 Just make some FORTH-like language. 01:08:18 " 01:08:19 ahh 01:08:24 ^bf +++++[>++++++++<-]>++++. 01:08:24 , 01:08:24 Stack-based things are really easy to implement. 01:08:26 ^bf +++++[>++++++++<-]>+++. 01:08:26 + 01:08:28 yay 01:08:29 :) 01:08:51 Just like how an RPN calculator is much easier to implement than some infix thing. 01:08:52 habnabit_: Sure, thutubot is written in a string-rewriting language and does underload. 01:08:55 habnabit_, don't you realise we are all slightly insane by your standards in here? :) 01:09:06 AnMaster, what standards? 01:09:06 But I think I'll hack at it to make it do one-expr python reasonably safely. 01:09:06 ^ul (Y)S 01:09:08 Y 01:09:15 habnabit_: #python's I guess he means. 01:09:16 habnabit_, not sure, but basically we think doing things in obscure ways is fun 01:09:21 ehird, it already does one-expression python. 01:09:25 But yeah, considering we're a community based entirely around esoteric programming languages... 01:09:30 habnabit_: But with security holes. 01:09:31 habnabit_, like obfuscated c is sane compared with some things in here ;P 01:09:35 eval can *only* evaluate one expression. 01:10:19 habnabit_, http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 01:10:20 AnMaster: i have been creating some pages 01:10:23 that is the code for fungot 01:10:24 AnMaster: gambit does transparent nonblocking io of course. can't perform the ritual. and lo and behold 01:10:33 Oh hey, befunge. 01:10:37 habnabit_, yes :) 01:11:26 habnabit_, oh and ais523 (who is afk) maintains one of the INTERCAL implementations 01:12:02 I'm sure you know what intercal is, but if you don't, you probably don't *want* to know 01:12:42 habnabit_, in fact I consider ehird's one expression python code beautiful, though I admit I don't know python well. I prefer C, Erlang and Scheme 01:12:56 (and befunge) 01:13:13 (though fizzie wrote fungot) 01:13:14 AnMaster: i paid 25 eur for my nokia communicator 9110 01:13:19 Sure. But it's not really one expression. 01:13:22 He cheats. 01:13:25 habnabit_: AnMaster hates Python because of whitespace indentation, I think it's safe to say his opinion on Python code is a bit silly. 01:13:29 Also, it is so one expression. 01:13:33 lambda *lists: (lambda iters: (reduce(lambda (ll, res), l: (l, res if ll is None else (res and ll == l)), reduce(lambda ds, elems: map(lambda d, elem: d.__setitem__(elem, d.get(elem, 0) + 1) or d, ds, elems) or ds, zip(*iters), [{} for x in xrange(len(lists))]), (None, True)))[-1] and not (lambda l: map(lambda it: list((itt.next(), l.append(True)) for itt in (it,)), iters) and bool(l))([]))(map(iter, lists)) if lists else True 01:13:39 I wrote that! 01:13:40 I do think whitespace indention have lots of issues yes 01:14:04 I prefer either brances, or erlang style 01:14:16 See. I'm cool too. :( 01:14:34 erlang use . to end a function , to separate expressions in a function and ; to end a function clause 01:14:34 habnabit_: embrace your dark side >:D 01:14:40 as statement separators 01:14:50 I have a bunch more python oneliners I've written. 01:14:51 oerjan is a published mathematician who wrote an unlambda interpreter in intercal. 01:14:54 it have none of the drawbacks of {} or indention based 01:14:55 :) 01:15:09 and habnabit_: Nice 01:15:22 not being a big python fan I admit I can't figure out what it does 01:15:35 not enough clues in the code really 01:15:40 It's the same as sorted(L1) == sorted(L2) == sorted(L3) == ... 01:15:54 sorted would check if a list is sorted I assume? 01:16:10 no 01:16:13 no? 01:16:14 sorted returns a sorted version 01:16:16 No, it returns a sorted copy of a list. 01:16:17 of its argument 01:16:20 that should be sort 01:16:22 IMO 01:16:24 no it should not 01:16:28 sort is an imperative 01:16:32 .sort is an inplace method of lists. 01:16:34 thus should mutate 01:16:37 err 01:16:38 right 01:16:39 but sorted describes the transition 01:16:47 So you have list.sort(), which is faster because it sorts in place. 01:16:56 And then there's sorted, which returns a sorted list from any iterable. 01:17:00 habnabit_, Single Assignment make so much more sense! :P 01:17:14 What's that have to do with sorting lists? 01:17:23 well for a start you would always get a new copy 01:17:28 and not modify in place 01:17:34 habnabit_: AnMaster actually only knows 3 languages, C, Bash (which he uses for big projects like his 'modular irc bot') and Erlang, but he likes to show off that he knows Erlang nowadays. 01:17:36 I'm leaving now. Bye. 01:17:46 ehird, now you are exagerating 01:18:07 I already wrote some scheme programs including a simple befunge93 interpreter 01:18:11 it got a few bugs still 01:18:23 once it is fully finished to handle IO correctly I will publish it 01:18:30 and I'm heading to bed too 01:18:46 02:18 in the night, really need to change that sleep pattern 01:19:09 habnabit_, oh and in case you want to see my insane modular irc bot in bash: http://envbot.kuonet.org 01:19:23 and it is somewhat like ehird's one-expression 01:19:23 DNS resolution error! 01:19:32 huh 01:19:42 Oh, there it goes. 01:19:48 But it can't connect on HTTP. 01:20:14 habnabit_, well that is different 01:20:23 * AnMaster ssh in to the freebsd jail it runs in 01:21:29 habnabit_, ok some upgrade broke it 01:21:34 trac to be exact 01:21:41 probably because that is coded in python 01:21:49 (just kidding) 01:21:53 >_< 01:21:58 Traceback (most recent call last): 01:21:58 File "/usr/local/share/trac/cgi-bin/trac.fcgi", line 19, in 01:21:58 from trac.web import fcgi_frontend 01:21:58 ImportError: No module named trac.web 01:22:01 * AnMaster considers this 01:23:27 habnabit_, happen to have any bright ideas? 01:23:47 ah works better 01:23:48 Never used trac. 01:23:50 another error 01:24:03 I wouldn't recommend using fcgi, though. 01:24:31 habnabit_, I use lighttpd 01:24:34 so no mod_python 01:24:39 Bahahaha. 01:24:41 mod_python is shit. 01:24:50 mod_wsgi works well with trac. 01:24:53 habnabit_, then what do you suggest? I need to server bzr branches 01:24:58 and apache is shit 01:24:58 :P 01:25:12 I would disagree. 01:25:50 habnabit_, should work now 01:25:53 the website 01:26:06 just had to reinstall trac 01:26:07 no idea why 01:26:12 It's going. 01:26:18 habnabit_, hm? 01:26:23 It worked. 01:26:25 ah 01:26:31 well I'm not a native speaker 01:26:35 so that confused me 01:26:41 going would mean "going away" to me 01:26:53 Looks like mod_wsgi works with bzr, too. 01:27:08 habnabit_, not really what I meant, I server them statically 01:27:18 since bzr can work on plain web server 01:27:31 and I use bzr+ssh for pushing 01:27:37 anyway envbot is semi-dead really 01:27:39 it works well 01:27:46 but is hard to maintain 01:27:54 however I'm proud over what I managed 01:29:09 habnabit_, I hope you will stay here :) 01:29:29 RIght now isn't prime time, many of the most active people live in Europe 01:29:32 Right* 01:29:43 So like me, they are heading to bed. 01:29:45 Cya! 01:29:46 I see. 01:29:52 (Sweden to be exact) 01:31:19 -!- olsner has joined. 01:35:00 * comex tries to compile pypy, and fails 01:35:41 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:35:45 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:37:29 -!- oepy has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:41:02 if this actually works ... 01:41:24 well, it's the first 1.0 software tbqh that I've had to fix a bug to get compile 01:41:52 Mmmmmmmmmmmoxie. 01:41:57 Moxie is so much better than all other soda. 01:42:21 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:55:54 -!- puzzlet has quit (Success). 02:00:57 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:10:53 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 02:21:17 -!- ab5tract has joined. 02:40:21 I've never had moxie. 02:40:24 I mean, Moxie. 02:45:21 -!- habnabit_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:46:13 ihope: It's effectively limited to one state :P 02:46:57 What state is that? 02:47:03 And why can't it be found elsewhere? 02:47:05 Maine. 02:47:14 Because they don't sell it elsewhere :P 02:47:37 Can you buy it in Maine, take it somewhere else, and sell it there? 02:48:05 Sure. 02:48:23 There are a few places that sell it in Oregon. 02:48:27 But I'm in Indiana now. 02:48:29 "USED: Six cans of MOXIE soft drink. No visible damage. Still factory sealed." 02:48:51 That's scary :P 02:48:57 But yuh, I bought mine online. 02:49:28 I think we shall have to liberate Maine and relieve them of these WMDs... 02:49:53 How did you get your hands on Moxie in Indiana? 02:50:27 Via the intarwebs. 02:50:38 (Had a bunch of it shipped) 03:07:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Y = SII, so. 03:09:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:13:07 -!- habnabit_ has joined. 03:28:14 -!- ab5tract has quit. 03:36:18 http://www.thinkin-lincoln.com/index.php?strip_id=1 03:37:46 (made me laugh, that one) 03:43:05 http://www.thinkin-lincoln.com/index.php?strip_id=8 03:43:21 maybe i'm getting tired like oklopol 04:17:05 who highlighted me 04:18:37 i think bsmntbombdood did one statement python 04:19:02 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:13:03 -!- edwardk has joined. 05:13:16 * edwardk waves hello. 05:17:11 hello 05:17:37 how goes? 05:18:03 I finally figured out how to make kata views efficient =) 05:18:33 what are kata views? 05:18:38 i realize uttering the word 'efficient' around here is grounds for a beating, but hey 05:18:49 kata is my more or less untyped haskell-alike 05:18:59 i use wadler style views in it rather than typeclasses 05:19:10 ic 05:19:27 where a view is defined as a sort of hybrid between a haskell data type and a open function definition 05:20:23 so in a wadler-style view. you'd say define a view Nat on integers that took 0 to the constructor Z and then took any other integer n to S (n -1) 05:20:32 then you could use S and Z or the more traditional integers 05:21:29 in kata-style views, you also say what constructors the view consists of, but the view itself is a function and you define the function as you would normally. any attempt to pattern match on a constructor that is part of a view applies the appropriate view function 05:21:52 so given constructors && and ||: 05:22:17 bool :: view True | False; bool (True && b) = bool b; bool (False && _) = False 05:23:19 a view is automatically idempotent and is an identity function on its own constructors, and in this case is defined on the additional && constructor, but when applied there it first applies the boolean view to the first argument of the && constructor, and case matches appropriately from there. 05:23:48 the problem is basically i wound up building up these free magmas of structures 1 + (2 + 3) didn't build a thunk chain it built a data structure. 05:24:10 and then applying the 'int' view to that was like 'walking an evaluation function' down a tree 05:24:27 so i finally figured out a way to cache the result of applying certain views to different data structures 05:24:35 which lets me recover haskell like efficiency 05:24:53 hm 05:24:57 if that makes any sense 05:25:41 more or less 05:26:01 basically i had to steal a trick from a chess program 05:26:36 crafty had this trick for doing lockless caching of best move calculations in its transposition tables 05:27:40 in the ghc spineless tagless g-machine you store a tag and a fwding pointer along with the data, in kata you store the tag, a forwarding pointer and a 'view' that derived that forwarding pointer. unfortunately. if you aren't careful that leads to a race condition, because without a lock 05:27:54 -!- ihope_ has joined. 05:28:03 you would read one fwding pointer, then someone could come along and write in another fwding pointer and view before you got to the view. 05:29:29 right 05:29:32 so instead i store the fwding pointer xored with the view instead. then to see if a view has already been applied to a thunk i check to see if fwd ^ fwd ^ the-view-i-read = the-view-i-want if so then fwd points to the answer, if not either the wrong view was stored or someone is racing me and its inconsistent 05:30:46 its always safe (if inefficient) to recompute a view, so it takes it to a conservative case for the rare (1-in-a-million)^2 kinda case where we both happen to be evaluating the same datastructure and i read it right as you overwrite it 05:31:00 which then just does the right thing 05:31:08 and no locks need enter into it 05:31:22 so its kinda like the blackholing tricks used by ghc 05:33:30 anyways it made me happy =) 05:33:59 good 05:34:29 unfortunately it plays hell with my garbage collector which heretofore didn't have to worry about writes changing the set of pointers visible from the local dataset into itself (i had some tricks that let me garbage collect separately per processor) 05:34:35 so i have a ways to go 05:36:55 * oerjan discovers he's very tired 05:37:16 (previously other threads didn't have to care if another thread was garbage collecting, any object that could be shared had a root pinned to keep it from oving, before copy collecting, propagate the pins transitively and don't move anything pinned) unfortunately since any thread can 'view' any other thread's data that fails here, since now you run into the traditional garbage collector/mutator race conditions that plague most concurrent col 05:37:47 * edwardk discovers he is blathering on 05:37:48 ;) 05:38:28 well, see you 05:38:55 -!- oerjan has quit ("Bed"). 05:45:47 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:49:11 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:54:32 -!- oc2k1 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:23:28 It's hard to find good test cases for a garbage collector. 06:24:10 I wrote up a quick-n-dirty generational GC, but my test cases are pathologically bad (tons of object churn with bad natural locality) so the GC is actually going faster than the non-GC version. 06:24:15 Bulllllll shfott. 06:31:49 back 06:31:51 yeah 06:33:29 in this case i've been using a per-processor copy-collector, where i allocate objects in garbage collected regions, inter-region links are pinned so they don't move, so anything with inter-region (hence all inter-processor) links can't be copy collected, they get globally mark/swept and ultimately mark/compacted. 06:34:10 it lets me get rid of most of my garbage without any inter-thread communication, but forces some constraints on how i can use objects or pass pointers around 06:36:21 unfortunately the view stuff i was rambling on above invalidates one of the central invariants of my gc model which is that an inter-region link could only be evaluated by another process to a value that it could reach transitively from a reference it had been handed (and it a reference is ever handed out it is pinned, and pins are propagated before sweeping) 06:38:31 so if i'm not the process that owns a region i don't have to care about the state of anything not transitively reachable from a pinned root, and since before copy collecting i propagate the pins (its just a mark pass, pins are the initial grey set) and hence any garbage collection done by the other processor is invisible to me. but if i want to collect pinned stuff i have to eventually give in and run a global collection 06:58:35 http://wellnowwhat.net/comic/mathematicians.jpg 07:00:02 lol 07:00:13 :D 07:00:14 you like? 07:00:21 Yeah 07:00:29 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 07:00:33 <3 mathematical jokes 07:00:44 -!- asiekierka has joined. 07:00:53 Although it could be a bit bigger and easier to read 07:00:59 Hi 07:01:02 yeah i know shush :P 07:01:16 xkcd ftw :) 07:01:21 actually 07:01:23 is not xkcd 07:01:27 I know 07:01:30 just xkcd style 07:01:34 Yeah 07:01:42 what xkcd style? 07:01:44 tho stick figures arent really anyones 'style' :P 07:01:50 nor are geeky jokes 07:01:50 I did this style 07:01:52 26 of these comics 07:01:58 And have 6 more waiting to upload 07:02:10 Yeah, xkcd puts them together well 07:02:22 What xkcd style comic? 07:02:44 xkcd's style is: stick figures + geek humor 07:02:48 yeah 07:03:12 Screebles style is: stick figures + school-bored-lesson-like drawing + nonsense 07:03:37 On that note I need to go to bed, I have to be at a math tournament in 7 hours... 07:03:55 cyanide and happiness is stick figures + faces + torsos + black humor 07:05:06 Cyanide and happiness is a bit in the gutter 07:05:19 i like it 07:05:24 i like their tiny-people style 07:05:27 not the tall people style 07:05:31 http://www.explosm.net/comics/862/ 07:05:32 like so 07:05:45 http://wellnowwhat.net/comic/mathematicians.jpg - this comic... lacks a good punchline. 07:05:46 lol 07:06:08 And to whoever made it: "Make the guys look like they're laughing when they are" 07:06:25 ey? 07:06:34 im not sure how to make stick figures look like they're laughing :( 07:06:37 im not that good yet! :| 07:06:44 Draw him a laughing mouth 07:06:51 it's possible even in MS *bleeping* PAINT! 07:06:54 but then it wouldn't be xkcd style! 07:07:04 xkcd has no facial expressions 07:07:13 Oh 07:07:21 maybe i'll do Someone style 07:07:21 Also, i must finally upload screebles 26-32 soon 07:07:28 27-32* 07:07:31 since Someone's art has facial expressions 07:07:36 I uploaded 26 of them... 07:07:38 made 6 more... 07:07:42 and never bothered to upload them 07:07:58 I'll get it on my old server tho. 07:08:11 The one with constant 500's. Since i don't feel like re-uploading the whole script 07:08:21 but brb now 07:08:27 -!- moozilla has joined. 07:08:36 or wait 07:08:38 i'll do it now 07:08:50 Oh 07:09:08 so there are a total of 32 screebles AND 6 animated screebles AND 5 animated whiteboard screebles 07:09:14 for a total of 43! 07:09:15 AUGH! 07:09:22 Wait 07:09:26 or no 07:09:27 nothing 07:09:53 brb, then upping 07:15:23 oki 07:15:38 in the meanwhile, i'll connect my VCR and finally copy that megaman nt warrior final eps 07:21:50 megaman nt warrior? 07:21:54 that show is awesome 07:21:59 was* 07:22:44 yeah 07:22:48 And it's still airing in poland 07:23:00 the final half of axess got aired here 2 months ago 07:26:41 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:26:56 -!- asiekierka has joined. 07:27:00 adding screebles! :D 07:29:36 27, 28 done 07:29:37 uping 29 07:29:40 then 30, 31, 32 07:29:44 then giving you the link(s) 07:30:38 #32 left 07:30:51 wtf 07:30:58 My comics 07:31:05 that were xkcd influenced, but slowly branched 07:31:07 branched away 07:31:08 ok 07:31:11 give 07:31:15 to asiekierkism, OR, my way of nonsense 07:31:42 http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles 07:31:44 here you go 07:32:09 Yes, i did #27-#32 in school 07:32:11 so when you say XKCD inspired 07:32:26 you mean "chaotic and painful to look at" 07:32:27 :P 07:33:03 nope 07:33:06 It was first XKCD inspired 07:33:10 by the ideas 07:33:16 then it slowly branched away to my nonsense 07:33:21 Also, i didn't do anything in MS paint 07:33:26 except graphical fixes in #13 and #30 07:33:29 or text adding in some 07:34:47 Any ideas to improve? 07:34:54 Except "don't draw on this little paper" 07:35:11 or "draw on better paper" 07:37:28 hmm? 07:43:59 write legibly 07:44:15 i can't tell what most of them say :-/ 07:44:57 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:45:12 -!- asiekierka has joined. 07:45:17 Heh, i hardly can too 07:45:32 But i can't write better on such a small notebook! 07:45:38 paper notebook 07:45:39 ofcoz 07:59:03 -!- Mony has joined. 07:59:24 -!- habnabit_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:11 -!- habnabit has joined. 08:02:24 plop 08:05:38 No, it's called "Plof" 08:09:09 PLoP is a predicate logic formula evaluator used for the homework in our logic course. (Nowadays; it used to use otter, the theorem-prover.) 08:10:03 hmm 08:10:22 flooders è_é 08:10:23 Anyone knows why Taxi doesn't work with NetCat 08:10:43 ^show 08:10:43 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc xaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul test 08:11:03 ^echo optbot 08:11:03 asiekierka: but e.g. sam ruby uses it so he can embed svg and mathml 08:11:03 optbot optbot 08:11:03 fungot: that is clever 08:11:04 optbot: does not compute. 08:11:04 fungot: SICP IS A POLYGAMISRT 08:11:04 optbot: it's a paper on prescheme, right? 08:11:04 fungot: I had two open 08:11:04 optbot: ( and i know this 08:11:04 fungot: hehe 08:11:05 optbot: too true, actually. haskell is computing ack(4,2)... over and over 08:11:05 fungot: harbl? no! :| 08:14:59 ^save 08:14:59 OK. 08:15:22 ^code 002aaa***99++p 08:15:23 ^show 08:15:24 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc 08:15:31 fizzie: Plof > PLoP. 08:15:36 That was entirely too many senseless commands. 08:17:03 Although I guess the ul command was kinda nice, even though it only was capable of outputting like three things, and useless with thutubot here. 08:17:10 ^def ul bf str:5 08:17:10 Defined. 08:17:15 ^ul (x)S 08:17:18 x 08:17:32 ^save 08:17:32 OK. 08:21:36 ^ul (:^):^ 08:21:43 ...out of time! 08:21:45 la lalalala--oh... wait 08:21:46 i forgot 08:21:58 (:^p) 08:22:19 ^ul (:^D)D:^ 08:23:05 It goes "out of time" with any nontrivial programs. Concatenation is about the only thing that works. 08:23:15 ^ul (:)(])*S 08:23:19 :] 08:23:55 ^ul (as)(ie)(ki)(er)(ka)!**!S 08:24:02 ...out of time! 08:24:38 You should program Underload normally 08:24:44 You have a stack, so it's easier 08:28:53 ^code >< 08:28:55 ^show 08:28:55 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul 08:28:58 Augh 08:34:05 Yes, a Funge-98 underload interp is on my to-do list. 08:35:31 Getting Taxi to cooperate with netcat is on my priority list 08:35:35 as the first entry 08:35:36 :P 08:35:38 Taxi works 08:35:39 Netcat works 08:35:42 Netcat+Taxi fail 08:59:25 morning 08:59:30 asiekierka, how is that? 08:59:35 you just need two fifos 08:59:46 I use something similar in my irc bot in bash 08:59:57 asiekierka, also maybe socat would work better then 09:00:06 Ok 09:00:10 lemme check if cygwin has socat 09:00:20 or if there's a native windows binary of it 09:01:02 asiekierka, from man page http://rafb.net/p/FNQWQX80.html 09:01:17 you could do something similar for stdin/stdout (1 and 2) 09:01:19 err 09:01:21 0 and 1 09:01:23 I meant 09:01:31 I know Taxi uses cout to output 09:01:42 and getline for input 09:01:48 well 0 is stdin and 1 stdout 09:02:35 I'm not sure if taxi does output to stdout 09:02:38 Taxi in CMD.EXE works 09:02:42 Netcat alone with echo works 09:02:48 Netcat+Taxi (with the -e command) FAIL 09:02:51 asiekierka, did you compile taxi under cygwin? 09:02:55 yes 09:03:01 ok, so not mingw then? 09:03:05 nope 09:03:12 i did it earlier but i recompiled it (thx ehird) 09:03:17 in cygwin 09:03:23 But that didn't help 09:03:35 asiekierka, try 2>/dev/null, do you still get output from taxi? 09:03:46 if not, it uses stderr for output 09:03:49 where shall i try 2>/dev/null? 09:03:55 just type 09:04:00 taxi yourprogram 2>/dev/null 09:04:02 taxi.exe tst.txt 2>/dev/null in Windows!? 09:04:07 asiekierka, in cygwin 09:04:10 ok 09:04:58 well, i do get output 09:05:10 If i replace 2> with 1> i do not 09:05:12 but wait a minute 09:05:25 asiekierka, so it use stdout then 09:05:43 I must retry netcat 09:05:53 oh wait 09:05:55 i use 09:05:58 asiekierka, well I'm not sure fifos work under cygwin 09:06:04 ./nc -v -v -e ./exec.sh irc.freenode.net 6667 09:06:10 #!/bin/sh 09:06:10 ./taxi.exe tst.txt 09:06:13 and this is exec.sh 09:06:19 um 09:06:26 nc = netcat 09:07:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | english is easier than Polish, Korean, Chineese, Finnish, Hungarian, Russian, Nyjorsk, Dannish... and some other ;;p. 09:07:22 If i run taxi.exe directly, as in, -e "./taxi.exe tst.txt", it quits after a short while 09:07:25 asiekierka, I'm not sure how nc works with that option 09:07:42 -e prog program to exec after connect [dangerous!!] 09:07:44 asiekierka, can you pastebin the code for your program? Maybe it got a bug? 09:07:51 what 09:07:53 the taxi program 09:07:58 or the default taxi interpreter 09:08:00 asiekierka, yes but I'm unsure it does what you want, the -e option 09:08:07 asiekierka, the program tst.txt 09:08:08 i'm not sure either 09:08:21 but when i run -e ./foo.sh (foo.sh echos hello world and blah by normal bash) it works 09:08:24 tested with ehird 09:08:28 So it's directly taxi.exe 09:08:51 http://www.bigzaphod.org/taxi/taxi.cpp - the taxi interpreter src 09:09:38 asiekierka, I meant the source for your program written in taxi 09:10:02 ah 09:10:02 ok 09:10:36 http://rafb.net/p/llFj7Y75.html 09:10:56 it doesn't work with freenoder 09:10:58 freenode* 09:11:04 sends nothing to itself (localhost, nc listening) 09:11:27 $ ./taxi taxibot.txt 09:11:27 Welcome to Taxi! 09:11:27 Let the journey begin... 09:11:27 NICK asiebot 09:11:27 USER asiebot asiebot asiebot :AsieBot! 09:11:27 JOIN #esoteric 09:11:29 hm 09:11:34 i modified the code 09:11:34 those two first lines? 09:11:39 so it doesn't show the first two lines 09:11:45 and the last line (that the program ended) 09:11:52 So ignore these 09:12:42 -!- asiebot has joined. 09:12:44 Heh 09:12:51 USER asiebot asiebot asiebot :AsieBot! 09:12:52 i inputted the first two lines first manually 09:12:56 that is wrong I think 09:12:57 Yes 09:13:00 It works! 09:13:03 > 2008-10-04 11:43:37 USER rfc3092 0 * :ietf.org/rfc/rfc3092 09:13:06 my bot sends that 09:13:10 bot in bash that is 09:13:21 from it's log 09:13:22 Here you go, you see, it works! I just typed it manually! 09:13:26 heh 09:13:31 asiebot, using netcat directly? 09:13:40 Yes. 09:13:46 yes. 09:14:41 Also, there's one problem. Namely, :asiekierka!n=asiekier@xx.xxx.xxx.x shows before the true command 09:14:47 And that may pwn the whole string handling in Taxi. 09:14:56 err that isn't odd 09:14:59 it shows sender 09:15:05 uh, yes 09:15:23 But one sad thing is that i can't split the string into pieces! 09:15:28 Only into separate chars! 09:15:30 But wait 09:15:36 then the Post Office works as a... STACK. 09:15:38 Brilliant! 09:15:41 no wait 09:15:43 not the post office 09:16:03 it was Chop Suey 09:16:06 Then it works as a stack 09:16:16 Hopefully Chop Suey and KonKat's are close together 09:16:27 So it takes ~1 mile to drive from one of these to another 09:16:34 doesn't your irc client have a raw log feature? 09:16:42 I'm not sure, 09:16:44 >> :asiekierka!n=asiekier@89.108.200.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :+So it takes ~1 mile to drive from one of these to another 09:16:56 as an example from my raw log 09:17:08 mIRC - unsure 09:17:11 netcat - what else!? :D 09:17:20 Returning to Taxi 09:17:22 << PING LAG1223663021092674 09:17:22 >> :calvino.freenode.net PONG calvino.freenode.net :LAG1223663021092674 09:17:24 So i can KonKat 27 chars together on one gallon :) 09:17:45 this i don't get 09:17:50 asiebot, hm one thing maybe, does taxi buffer output? 09:17:51 I just got PING :clarke.freenode.net in netcat 09:17:55 and I think -e may be wrong 09:18:00 not sure about that though' 09:18:06 AnMaster: How else you do it on Linux? 09:18:12 Also, buffering output? I'm not sure 09:18:24 i know it uses getline for input and cout for output 09:18:36 And i output the whole string at once 09:18:41 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 09:18:42 lemme check something 09:18:43 -!- asiebot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:18:48 netcat irc.freenode.net 6667 < out-fifo > in-fifo & 09:18:50 and 09:18:51 -!- jix has joined. 09:18:52 the fifos: 09:19:00 mkfifo out-fifo 09:19:03 mkfifo in-fifo 09:19:08 both before the netcat command 09:19:15 then: 09:19:28 hmm? 09:19:32 taxi foo.txt < in-fifo > out-fifo 09:19:47 reversing order of the fifos compared with in nethack command 09:19:55 asiekierka, fifios are special files 09:19:59 fifos* 09:20:07 first in, first out 09:20:08 is the & at the end necessary in netcat 09:20:18 asiekierka, no you could start it in a different terminal 09:20:34 & just puts it in background 09:21:02 asiekierka, anyway I don't know if cygwin have fifos 09:21:15 -!- olsner has joined. 09:21:23 cygwin has fifos 09:21:52 asiekierka, anyway another possibility is that some buffering is going on somewhere 09:22:35 ok, testing 09:22:50 asiekierka, maybe add cout.flush(); at the end of post_office_arrive(), that should handle buffering I think 09:23:00 not 100% sure, more used to C 09:23:05 where you use fflush() 09:23:30 fflush()? 09:23:44 this is not my code 09:23:46 but lemme check 09:23:51 asiekierka, that is for C not C++ 09:23:56 ok 09:23:58 in C++ I think it is cout.flush(); 09:23:58 added cout.flush 09:24:15 don't forget to recompile 09:24:20 After the while loop, right? 09:24:24 yes 09:24:42 oki 09:24:43 recompiling 09:25:00 giving it 30 seconds 09:25:10 to identify, join this channel 09:25:10 and stuff 09:25:21 using -e to netcat still? 09:25:25 nope 09:25:29 using FIFOs 09:25:37 ok 09:25:43 it didn't do it, as we see 09:25:50 I wonder if i should add a 3-second delay in the program 09:27:25 no 09:27:26 2-second 09:28:21 ok 09:28:23 testing 09:29:07 asiekierka, I set up a local listening netcat and tried to connect to it with your program 09:29:15 and? 09:29:16 I should have gotten output from the listen nethack 09:29:17 I didn'rt 09:29:19 didn't* 09:29:23 the same here 09:29:31 I think it's the taxi.cpp that is broken 09:29:35 or cout itself, even 09:29:44 not sure 09:30:04 Or maybe netcat doesn't use stdin/stdout, but that'd be wrong, as netcat works with foo.sh's echo, even with -e 09:30:09 wait wrong 09:30:26 what 09:30:33 $ netcat -vv -l 09:30:34 Listening on any address 51972 09:30:34 Connection from 127.0.0.1:37495 09:30:38 and 09:30:39 $ netcat 127.0.0.1 51972 -e "./taxiwrap.sh" 09:30:47 And? 09:30:47 -e doesn't work I suspect 09:30:52 Try with FIFOs 09:31:12 * AnMaster does so 09:32:29 With fifos, it worked here! 09:32:31 weird 09:32:34 really? didn't here 09:32:42 I ran this: 09:32:49 nc -v -v -l -p 3200 localhost in a cmd box 09:33:07 and in the cygwin box, do.sh which set the fifos if needed, ran nc to localhost -p 3200 and taxi 09:33:22 Hey, so it does work 09:33:48 what you mean two levels? 09:33:55 2 levels? 09:33:55 yes 09:33:58 -v -v == -vv 09:34:07 no 09:34:14 wait nm 09:34:43 yes, it seems to work with localhost(age) 09:35:30 Tried with cygwin 09:35:48 So it's a problem with the connection process 09:36:10 taxi.cpp modded by me waits 2 seconds before processing 09:36:51 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:37:07 -!- asiekierka has joined. 09:37:24 Nngh 09:37:35 Still seems to fail 09:37:47 I'm not sure what is up with netcat 09:37:52 It's not with netcat 09:37:57 It's with the connection process 09:38:11 So the problem is at this end 09:38:15 :P 09:38:21 At least a piece of good news 09:38:27 err hm 09:38:36 yes 09:39:17 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:39:22 bye 09:39:33 -!- asiekierka has joined. 09:39:35 wb 09:39:48 ... 09:39:51 So it's weird 09:39:53 ....... 09:40:00 so what's the subject? 09:40:06 lemme solve all your mortal problems 09:40:10 Netcat+Taxi+Freenode woes 09:40:14 that's the subject 09:40:22 i'm not sure what netcat and taxi are 09:40:22 We FINALLY got Netcat to cooperate with Taxi 09:40:28 but we must now get them to cooperate with Freenode 09:40:33 but i have a faint idea about freenode 09:40:41 asiekierka, ah found it 09:40:43 wait no 09:40:43 it is one of the continents of irc 09:40:52 AnMaster: what 09:41:20 asiekierka, I need to read once after sending the first line 09:41:24 huh 09:41:37 before connection is opened 09:41:47 what happens 09:41:58 I already added a 7second delay before code execution in Taxi.cpp! 09:42:26 asiekierka, no it seems odd blocking things happen 09:42:32 asiekierka, if you have socat, use it instead 09:42:59 Cygwin doesn't have socat 09:43:17 I can compile it tho 09:43:29 no idea if it works on windows/cygwin 09:43:38 Oh 09:43:43 and what syntax would i use THEN 09:45:05 hmm 09:45:37 socat EXEC:"./taxi taxibot.txt",fdin=0,fdout=1 TCP4:irc.freenode.net:6667,crnl 09:45:38 maybe 09:45:40 * AnMaster waits 09:45:42 -!- asiebot has joined. 09:45:45 yep 09:45:46 huh 09:45:47 -!- asiebot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:45:50 worked 09:45:53 it... it WORKED!? 09:45:57 asiekierka, yes 09:46:00 using said line 09:46:01 yay for socat! 09:46:09 :D 09:46:12 asiekierka, no idea if reading works 09:46:14 Now configuring the make for socat 09:46:19 We'll check later 09:46:40 By... sending a message! 09:46:45 And quitting by itself 09:46:55 augh, configure is taking forever 09:46:58 asiekierka, err crnl may be wrong 09:47:02 just fyi 09:47:02 -!- edwardk1 has joined. 09:47:05 ok 09:47:09 thx anyway 09:47:15 asiekierka, you may have to read man page 09:47:16 AnMaster, without you, there wouldn't be a Taxibot 09:47:18 socat is very complex 09:47:22 yes 09:47:27 If i'll have problems, i may 09:47:33 asiekierka, and configure would take forever on cygwin 09:47:39 ok, doing make on socat 09:47:39 since it is written in shell script 09:47:43 and that is slow on windows 09:47:44 very fast on xio 09:47:48 because it uses fork() 09:47:53 oh 09:48:01 Compiling is VERY fast though 09:48:03 which cygwin have to emulate 09:48:03 it just did it 09:48:07 asiekierka, ok 09:48:08 for 10 seconds, and done! 09:48:34 crnl Converts the default line termination character NL ('\n', 0x0a) to/from CRNL ("\r\n", 0x0d0a) when writing/reading on this channel 09:48:34 (example). Note: socat simply strips all CR characters. 09:48:39 that could cause a headache 09:48:41 not sure 09:48:49 Oh, yeah, i use \r\n 09:48:59 :) 09:49:03 asiekierka, might not be needed then 09:49:09 Yeah 09:49:12 i'll change it to just \n 09:49:15 and strip crnl 09:49:26 err just \n and *use* crnl you mean? 09:49:27 or? 09:49:38 nope, just \n and DO NOT use crnl 09:49:44 IRC servers work with \n 09:49:45 right? 09:49:53 with \r\n iirc 09:49:54 but oh well 09:50:06 pretty sure irc use CRLF 09:50:30 crlf == crnl seems 09:50:35 yes 09:50:35 Is there something like %1 in shell scripts? 09:50:38 err 09:50:43 asiekierka, what would %1 do? 09:50:45 %1 and %2 09:50:48 %1 = taxi.exe 09:50:52 %2 = tst.txt 09:50:57 In case i want to test a diff script 09:50:59 i could just do 09:51:07 ./do.sh taxi.exe test2.txt 09:51:08 Oh well 09:51:09 maybe not 09:51:13 asiekierka, $1 is first command line parameter $2 is second one 09:51:19 $@ is an array of all 09:51:33 "$@" would expand to "taxi.exe" "test2.exe" 09:51:34 err 09:51:36 "$@" would expand to "taxi.exe" "test2.txt" 09:51:39 in your example 09:51:54 asiekierka, shell scripts are way more powerful than *.bat 09:52:14 Testing socat on my pc 09:52:15 -!- asiebot has joined. 09:52:18 Yay 09:52:19 :D :D :D 09:52:20 -!- asiebot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:52:45 asiekierka, irc lines are terminated with CRLF 09:52:46 Now let me tinker around 09:52:53 according to http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/rfc/chapter2.html#c2_3 09:53:04 http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/rfc/chapter2.html#c2_3_1 to be specific 09:54:42 Wait, FIFO works like this: 09:54:44 I put a, then b 09:54:45 I get a, then b 09:54:47 right? 09:54:52 as in 09:54:55 i first put 09:54:58 then after putting a and b 09:55:07 i get two numbers, a and b 09:59:20 -!- kar8nga has joined. 10:02:22 I'm nearly done 10:03:21 Hmm 10:04:58 Hmm 10:05:11 oki, it terminates after a while with socat in the new version of my taxi script 10:05:45 http://rafb.net/p/1LPnJM86.html 10:05:46 Huh 10:07:02 "Making Taxi programs is just like playing with ROB the Robot. You must plan out EVERYTHING." 10:07:13 -!- edwardk has quit (Connection timed out). 10:07:45 Hmm? 10:07:54 It may prove that input fails 10:08:05 oh 10:08:06 i see 10:08:10 i forgot about the infiniloop 10:08:51 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:09:09 -!- asiekierka has joined. 10:09:23 -!- taxibot has joined. 10:09:23 NOTICE AUTH :*** Looking up your hostname... - test no. 1 10:09:24 tick tock 10:09:28 YAAAY 10:09:32 yay, it WORKED! 10:09:35 yes yes, it worked 10:09:44 -!- taxibot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:10:38 -!- taxibot has joined. 10:10:38 NOTICE AUTH :*** Looking up your hostname... - test no. 1 10:10:38 -!- taxibot has quit (Client Quit). 10:10:43 Hooray 10:12:52 Now the one thing i need to do is comparisons. 10:14:25 -!- edwardk1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:14:54 -!- taxibot has joined. 10:14:54 NOTICE AUTH :*** Looking up your hostname... - test no. 1 10:14:54 -!- taxibot has quit (Client Quit). 10:14:59 Nope 10:15:01 oh well 10:15:08 lemme get to comparisons... finally 10:16:21 I'd need to ride to the gas station once and then though 10:27:35 -!- asiebot has joined. 10:27:37 TEST 10:27:52 Yayz. I just need to check for a uppercase P. 10:28:48 in PING? 10:29:02 asiekierka, I think there may be other data starting with P 10:29:05 like PRIVMSG 10:35:07 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("So, how much do you love noodles?"). 10:41:22 Oh, right. 10:41:38 But i'll then check for my header 10:41:39 By the way I notice that Taxi is a language where everything is calculated using side effects 10:41:40 or rather 10:41:44 the whole command: #hello 10:41:54 :P 10:42:12 A ping wouldn't have #hello 18 chars after "P"! 10:42:44 :P 10:43:00 also 10:43:04 an uppercase P in PRIVMSG 10:43:15 About pings, i don't need to worry yet 10:44:04 The thing i need to worry about is gas. 10:44:38 I'll throw PONGs in later 10:50:00 Haha 10:50:08 i rode a total of 386.91 miles on a message 10:50:24 asiekierka rocks PRIVMSG #esoteric : 10:50:26 asiekierka, you can easily handle fuel, just take two different numbers from Starchild, go to equals corner 10:50:33 it is a very short distance 10:50:48 or something similar 10:50:49 But i must convert the Chop Suey character to a number then 10:50:50 :( 10:51:01 asiekierka, err? 10:51:03 And Chop Suey is in the near-exact opposite corner of the city! 10:51:09 Nope 10:51:14 i need to parse the string with Chop Suey 10:51:17 Also 10:51:22 i handle gas by going to the Zoom Zoom 10:51:37 the distance from the Cyclone (where i am at one point) to the Zoom Zoom is one mile 10:51:41 The Underground 10:51:51 is near Chop Suey 10:52:00 Well, yes 10:52:02 it can discard ppl 10:52:14 Oh, right 10:52:19 Collator Express can discard too 10:52:33 Oh well 10:52:37 i don't need this by far 10:52:40 and that is near cyclone 10:52:50 But i'm not discarding at this point 10:52:53 and writers depot 10:53:01 I handle gas by going to the Zoom Zoom 10:53:20 since after one loop, i have ~18.5 gas and ~3 credits. 10:53:25 And this is enough to fill it 10:53:50 After the char processing (so where the message comes), i have 18.48 gas and 4.55 credits. 10:53:53 :) 10:54:06 And someone said yesterday that 0.07 credits/mile may not be enoguh 10:54:07 asiekierka, at writers depot make "b" and "a" , go to Collator Express 10:54:08 enough* 10:54:13 that should give some money 10:54:20 and result in no return 10:54:27 I'm not worrying about it 10:54:42 Konkating an 18-char string from Chop Suey already gives me a bit of money 10:54:49 and then i... throw it off at riverview bridge 10:55:02 asiekierka, that gives no money 10:55:05 I know 10:55:07 And i don't care 10:55:17 By handling gas i meant "tanking" 10:55:23 yes I know 10:55:29 And i don't care 10:55:36 asiekierka, I just suggested a money making scheme ;P 10:55:40 Yeah 10:55:47 that is close to zoom zoom 10:56:10 Well, also, it's at the point where i'd need to ride to Writer's Depot anyway 10:56:11 you can make similar schemes near go more too 10:56:19 so i can ride there for "#hello" 10:56:25 go to Zoom Zoom (by the way) 10:56:33 asiekierka, Writer's depot is close to Collectors express too 10:56:35 And do another konkat-chop suey ride to make moneyz 10:56:36 and close to Zoom 10:56:40 But i don't need to drop anyone then 10:56:44 ... Oh wait. 10:56:48 I... I see. 10:56:54 I see how this can work. 10:58:20 Going to Writer's Depot, pick up "#hello" and "a", go to Collator Express, put down my 18-char string then a, then go to Zoom Zoom, then go to Chop Suey, KonKat the 6 next letters, compare it at Crime Lab, if they're equal go to Writer's Depot for the output message, output it, and i'm going back to the loop. 11:01:02 yes, the plan worked 11:01:13 and made me ~0.62 credits 11:01:21 And now, for the final code stuff 11:01:37 And then, i may show the world the first Taxi bo 11:01:37 t 11:01:45 hm? 11:02:11 Yes, the first bot written in Taxi. 11:02:20 Which will just be able to say "Hello, World!" 11:02:21 but still 11:02:26 and only on #esoteric 11:02:29 and no ping responses 11:02:32 so it only works _HERE_ 11:02:36 but oh well 11:02:45 asiekierka, you want ping too 11:02:47 and so on 11:03:02 and several backup money making schemes depending on where in the city you are 11:04:20 asiekierka, really just making it say hello world isn't worth it 11:04:27 Not just saying 11:04:27 it needs to do two things: 11:04:30 saying it on command 11:04:32 1) PING PONG 11:04:32 As in 11:04:35 you say #hello 11:04:41 and it says Hello, World! 11:04:47 asiekierka, ok and it will need to check every line for that 11:05:03 what if you write a lot of short lines? 11:05:04 It checks every char for "P". I'd just need to make it check for "I" 11:05:22 If it doesn't find any char left, it waits for another string and splits it 11:05:25 chars* 11:06:58 charizard, matkaan! 11:07:12 I already lost interest in the Taxibot though 11:07:20 It's way too boring to make it work 11:07:25 But i'll complete it 11:08:12 asiekierka, next one: in RUBE? 11:08:28 augh, i don't want BPG 11:08:33 (irc)Bot Platform Games 11:08:37 haha 11:08:43 asiebot, warehouse paradigm 11:08:44 you mean 11:08:55 stop referring to me as asiebot 11:09:04 asiekierka, sorry, tab completion 11:09:29 -!- asiebot has changed nick to notasiebot. 11:09:35 whew 11:09:39 Now it should work 11:09:46 asiekierka, how did you do that? 11:09:52 i typed NICK notasiebot 11:10:07 asiekierka, where? Isn't STDIN connected to irc? 11:10:16 Yes it is 11:10:18 and in my nc console 11:10:26 nc? you mean socat? 11:10:32 Nope 11:10:33 Netcat 11:10:35 socat is for taxi 11:10:36 ah well 11:10:49 It just doesn't want to work on my machine a while later. I also noticed i must send anything in order to keep alive. Wait 11:10:52 asiekierka, you use both at once? 11:10:58 Can i pong irc.freenode.net "out of nothing"? 11:11:00 Just pong? 11:11:12 AnMaster, asiebot idles and i write taxibot 11:11:31 asiekierka, PONG foo.freenode.net where foo is current server name 11:11:44 oh 11:11:45 I seem to be on calvino.freenode.net for example 11:11:55 asiekierka, anyway that hack will still only work on freenode 11:11:58 Yes 11:12:03 most other ircds want you to do it properly 11:12:07 But #esoteric is only on freenode 11:12:14 and i already lost interest in adding PING/PONG 11:12:15 asiekierka, and so will freenode sometime soon 11:12:29 I lost interest in Taxibot. I said. 11:12:30 since they plan changing ircd 11:12:33 asiekierka, oh well 11:12:34 :( 11:12:36 So i'm just doing it for "doing it" 11:12:41 And i'll up the source 11:12:44 WARNING: it's already a mess 11:12:46 asiekierka, and RUBE irc bot would be fun 11:12:50 yeah 11:12:51 maybe 11:12:53 asiekierka, it *should* be a mess 11:12:56 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:13:08 asiekierka, you would need to invent your own string handling though 11:14:01 I'd like char handling now 11:14:06 I don't want to think about string handling 11:14:07 NEVER! 11:14:17 I'd like char handling more at this point 11:14:38 Also 11:14:42 my code now loops forever 11:14:52 And now, Hello World Helloplentation. 11:20:54 Ok 11:20:58 One more bug to be fixed, possibly 11:22:33 Well, uh 11:22:40 it crashes on any other message than #hello 11:22:59 except if it's exactly 6 chars 11:23:19 No, that's it. 11:23:24 I'm putting it up for anyone to explore 11:23:45 http://rafb.net/p/xPsyiH46.html 11:23:47 MESS warnin 11:23:48 g 11:23:57 i'm not doing anything on it, i'm bored with it 11:24:58 Also unlike a real cellular automaton, RUBE supports rudimentary output functionality; input was planned, but has never been implemented. 11:24:59 Uh oh 11:25:02 no input...? 11:27:12 AnMaster? 11:27:18 ? 11:27:24 RUBE have input block iirc 11:27:40 RUBE II 11:27:45 RUBE II does 11:27:51 RUBE original has it marked as "planned" 11:28:00 ah rube II was what I meant then 11:28:21 Oh 11:28:25 i may make a RUBE II bot 11:28:27 RUBEot 11:28:30 Rubeot :D 11:28:37 just like fungot 11:28:38 asiekierka: fluid-let behaves the same as on-disk, but dammit, if it isn't 11:29:50 Now lemme try compiling it 11:30:10 -!- notasiebot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:30:30 wow 11:30:32 it worked 11:30:32 :) 11:30:33 13:24:30 asiekierka: Also unlike a real cellular automaton, RUBE supports rudimentary output functionality; input was planned, but has never been implemented. <<< a real cellular automaton has output functionality?? 11:30:35 *-? 11:30:41 Nope 11:30:45 oh 11:30:47 *supports* 11:30:54 a real cellular automation is meant to be outputing by viewing it 11:30:54 :P 11:30:56 somehow i managed to read that as lacks. 11:32:37 oki 11:32:51 So now i can went on and make a rubeot 11:33:04 Wait, rube uses nybbles, right? 11:35:39 Also, lemme check PIET :) 11:35:56 PaIntEr's Tool 11:36:31 what io does pit have? 11:36:46 piet? 11:36:52 In/Out Number/Char 11:36:56 And it only has a stack 11:37:08 oksy 11:37:15 i must check other stuff 11:37:17 and find the best 11:37:17 would be fun if you could draw with it 11:37:20 graphical quine 11:37:47 yeah 11:38:06 But you can quine by outputting a PNG/BMP/RAW file which is equal to the contents of the piet program 11:38:38 yes but that's slightly less col. 11:38:40 *cool 11:39:16 Self-modifying Piet would be fun 11:48:39 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:50:46 -!- oepy has joined. 11:51:34 -!- oepy has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:01:01 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:01:14 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 12:07:10 asiekierka, hm... RUBE II should be fun to make a bot in 12:07:13 hellish hard yes 12:14:01 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 12:25:22 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:38:43 Hm considering we seem to get more and more CPU cores I think cellular automatons will be the programming languages that dominate in the future 12:39:24 after all a properly designed cellular automaton would be extremely easy to parallelise 12:40:33 not rube, since it is a bully automaton 12:40:39 but ones like game of life... 12:41:13 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:12:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:12:46 _Nyjorsk_? 13:12:55 * oerjan swats optbot ----### 13:12:56 oerjan: ... 13:13:26 the chinese and danish may do their own swatting 13:21:30 oerjan, when did it say "Nyjorsk"? 13:21:46 in the topic 13:22:08 oerjan: 'j' is the new 'n' 13:23:17 not in nynorsk it isn't 13:23:54 (but there is probably _some_ word where bokmål has n where nynorsk has j) 13:24:40 at least nynorsk tends to have more j's 13:28:51 I lost interest in Taxibot. I said. 13:28:57 how long of an attention span does that guy have?!?!??! 13:29:17 could you repeat that? 13:30:20 ehird: insufficient context... 13:30:32 what 13:30:42 i get oerjan's joke 13:30:42 but olsner what 13:31:21 olsner: context = just about all of today's logs, i think 13:31:35 basically 13:31:36 well, without knowing when he gained interest there's no telling what kind of attention span we're talking about 13:31:37 yesterday 13:31:45 he was all hyped up about a box written in Taxi 13:31:48 and spent ages on it blabbering 13:31:49 then 13:31:50 recently 13:31:51 today 13:31:59 well, that's longer than my average attention span 13:31:59 he spent hours asking AnMaster all about what he needed to know to make it and such 13:32:03 then just declared that he'd given up 13:32:07 right in the middle of asking AnMaster questions 13:32:15 with no justification 13:32:37 ehird: you mean you _don't_ have ADD? get thee out of #esoteric 13:32:42 ADD? 13:32:46 i do, probably 13:32:48 but 13:32:51 attention deficit disorder 13:32:54 asie doesn't just get bored quickly 13:32:58 oerjan, is that like ADHD? 13:32:59 asie blabs on for ages about how his idea is jesus 13:33:02 and bugs everyone 13:33:03 forever 13:33:03 or is it different? 13:33:03 usually attention dies with the realization that the problem is trivial (since you have asked enough to know how to do it, it's now become trivial...) which means it's boring 13:33:04 about it 13:33:06 and then immediately 13:33:07 out of the blue 13:33:10 says he's abandoned it 13:33:43 AnMaster: i don't know i guess ADHD contains ADD 13:33:49 oerjan, hm ok 13:33:56 no-one knows exactly what's what 13:34:24 seems it's a family of related similar problems 13:35:06 hm 13:35:18 just generally anything related to "bad" attention management (too much of it, too little of it, and usually in the wrong place) 13:35:29 And I usually can stay on one project for at least a week or two 13:35:33 And longer 13:35:42 problem is that I try to do too much at once 13:35:50 having too many current projects 13:36:23 I don't know what that would be called 13:37:07 -!- g0bl1n has joined. 13:37:28 hi, need some brainfuck help 13:37:40 :-P 13:37:41 hi 13:37:46 :) 13:37:57 then this should be the right place 13:38:09 userfriendly today was really funny heh 13:38:15 well, if on average you get 1/n work done on n projects I'd say you don't really have a problem 13:38:32 ++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++>+++++>++++++<<<<<-]>+++.>>>>+++++.<<<<---.-.>>++.>>++.<<<+.-----------.+.---.+++++++.+++++++++++.-.>.>.--..++++++++. 13:38:38 olsner, well, long term average yes 13:38:40 i think #(#)brainfuck is dead, isn't it? don't think i ever been there myself 13:38:44 i have this... is there anyway to optimize it ? 13:38:44 i usually get 1/n^2 work done on all project. 13:38:47 *projects 13:38:51 ^bf ++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++>+++++>++++++<<<<<-]>+++.>>>>+++++.<<<<---.-.>>++.>>++.<<<+.-----------.+.---.+++++++.+++++++++++.-.>.>.--..++++++++. 13:38:52 SAPO Codebits 2008 13:38:55 yes 13:38:59 which is when i put some of them in my todo list 13:39:09 wow, lots of conversations at once here 13:39:14 oklopol, so you have a huge todo list ? :) 13:39:16 I'm probably at 1/2^n or something like that 13:39:34 g0bl1n: yes, in which case i usually buy a new computer and erase the old todo list! :D 13:39:37 1/ackermann(n) here 13:39:46 oerjan, hehe 13:39:55 oerjan, except that takes 2 parameters iirc? 13:39:58 maybe wrong 13:40:01 oklopol, but if the todo list is in the cloud... pc may even burn... 13:40:09 you are the mathematician after all 13:40:15 AnMaster: sometimes 2, sometimes 3, so why not 1 13:40:24 oerjan, fair point 13:40:37 g0bl1n: there are lots of bf textgens 13:40:40 oerjan, so how do you define the one parameter version? 13:40:56 g0bl1n, optimise brainfuck? heh 13:41:12 -!- slereah has joined. 13:41:18 AnMaster, no, not that geezzz :) 13:41:20 g0bl1n: btw that brainfuck looks like the output of old egobot's txt2bf 13:41:21 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:41:29 time complexities in esoteric languages is an interesting subject, AnMaster 13:42:01 oklopol, well. yes. 13:42:03 which used a java genetic program 13:42:21 oklopol, can you direct me to some of those textgens ? 13:42:23 oerjan: most bf textgens use that exact same output style 13:42:46 g0bl1n: i'll just encourage you to do it yourself :D 13:42:50 g0bl1n, you could probably turn some of the longer ++++++ into loops 13:43:00 like ++[>++<-] 13:43:01 i doubt you could 13:43:04 AnMaster 13:43:04 AnMaster, that's precisely what i was pretending 13:43:05 or possibly m time spent on n projects, where m has no relation whatsoever to n 13:43:07 doesn't work 13:43:11 all cells are in use 13:43:13 g0bl1n: that one can be run longer as a standalone program, giving somewhat better optimization 13:43:19 iirc 13:43:27 if they weren't, all <'s and >'s would be <> 13:43:29 time is not an issue 13:44:04 g0bl1n, also some (most?) bf compilers optimise the code. Such as turning ++++ into "add 4" and similiar. 13:44:45 oklopol, also you could rearrange cells to get another one to do it 13:45:19 AnMaster, wouldn't that increase chars used, in this case ? 13:45:36 AnMaster: s/n/n,n/ in my ackermann i guess 13:45:50 oerjan, ah 13:46:28 g0bl1n, you mean memory? Yes 13:46:43 +++++++++++ = [-]+++[>+++<-]> Assuming you can destroy current cell and next cell. 13:46:50 ++[>++<-] increments 4 in that cell, right ? 13:47:13 g0bl1n, well it will use two cells, assuming the first one is 0 at the start it will end up with 4 in the cell after 13:47:24 yes 13:47:44 that is assuming both cells are 0 to start with 13:47:53 that's not shorter 13:47:56 exact same length 13:47:59 :) 13:48:05 oklopol, true, but for higher numbers it can be shorter 13:48:17 yes, but there are no higher numbers :) 13:48:22 maybe i can try using less cells, and more loops ? 13:48:49 g0bl1n, another idea that may be worth checking. How about wrapping downwards? Is that a shorter or longer path 13:49:01 considering you have wrapping unsigned 8-bit cells in bf 13:49:08 AnMaster, sorry, didnt understand 13:49:28 a single - is the same as 255 + after each other 13:49:48 in all major bf implementations at least 13:50:26 g0bl1n, see what I mean? 13:50:56 AnMaster: all the chars output are < 128 so i doubt wrapping will help here 13:51:02 oerjan, ah true 13:51:07 since most all of my used ascii codes are under 100, would it be good ? 13:51:13 g0bl1n, nop 13:51:19 :) 13:51:52 bf is great for brain_fucking !! great :) 13:51:56 real bf :) 13:52:54 g0bl1n, Sure there is nothing more you could move into initial loop? 13:53:32 like ? 13:53:41 apart from that It seems all +++++ or ----- sequences would be longer written as loops 13:53:52 i wonder if switching around the order of the cells might give a shorter program, because the text contains all upper case, then all lower case, then all numbers 13:53:58 seems so , doesnt it ? 13:54:16 good idea 13:54:20 and the >>>> used to pass between two different upper case cells seems a bit long 13:54:27 indeed 13:54:27 hm maybe 13:54:33 -!- Hiato has joined. 13:55:02 g0bl1n, also what does the message it printed mean? 13:56:00 this is an event, happening in November, a gathering of developers 13:56:23 SAPO is an ISP 13:56:26 hm 13:56:36 as internet servide provider 13:56:37 :) 13:56:51 yes, but why would they want to see brainf*ck 13:57:15 someone posted an idea to convert it to bf :) 13:57:22 hm ok 13:57:30 and now you are golfing it 13:57:32 :) 13:57:38 indeed :) 13:57:39 -!- habnabit has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:57:59 btw, why is it called "golfing". Seems pretty strange 13:58:24 because 13:58:28 you get to the hole (target program) 13:58:31 golfing as, the least chars one can get, like golf 13:58:32 in as litle puts as possible 13:58:33 i think 13:58:35 ah 13:58:37 real golf 13:58:39 makes sense 13:58:41 yep 13:58:44 here: 13:58:53 probem=hole 13:58:53 and 13:58:55 key STROKES 13:59:03 :) 13:59:05 -- http://www.golfscript.com/golfscript/ 13:59:13 but yeah that confused me too 13:59:35 I'm no huge golf fan so didn't think of that initially 13:59:47 the thing is, we all user severall languages, so what about reducing it to a least common denominator ? bf :) 14:00:03 golf is awesome 14:00:54 g0bl1n, nah, something like lambda calculus with output would be equally low common denominator but incompatible with bf 14:01:07 I like how anagolf steals the ICFP reward sentences in its language rankings: 14:01:09 [[Ruby is the programming tool of choice for discriminating golfers. 14:01:09 GolfScript is a fine programming tool for many courses.]] 14:02:04 ehird, I'd say RoR, not Ruby itself :) 14:02:08 D 14:02:09 :D 14:02:23 g0bl1n: Ugh. 14:02:29 Because everything is a web application. 14:02:36 Right? 14:03:31 RoR is becoming a no brainer. There are lots of RoR programmers that can barelly produce ruby code 14:03:57 how can i represent 2^6 in bf ? 14:04:16 g0bl1n: That is not a good thing, btw. 14:04:21 oh ok 14:04:25 And RoR is pretty awful as web frameworks go. :-P 14:04:28 As for 2^6, not sure 14:05:08 g0bl1n: see http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck_constants 14:05:48 oerjan, that is cool, ty !! 14:06:39 oerjan: why not link tothe esolangs.org version? 14:07:06 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/kareha.pl/1217593391/l50 <- "befunge compiler" 14:07:08 I am sceptical. 14:07:09 *skeptical. 14:07:44 i read it as esoteric.voxelperfect.net myself 14:07:56 oerjan: ::P 14:07:59 *:P 14:09:45 ahahaha 14:09:48 the compiler just bundles the interp 14:10:22 so no JIT? 14:10:22 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 14:10:26 nope 14:12:13 oh there is an RSS feed for the forum 14:12:21 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 14:12:33 maybe i can actually get to read it regularly then 14:14:22 oerjan: Nobody ever posts. 14:14:33 they sometimes do 14:14:40 Thread #5 is from -06-. (Not emphasis, incomplete date format.,) 14:14:41 not often, but sometimes 14:14:59 Thread 10 is from 2007-10-. 14:15:42 and RSS might help remind me that it exists, and if everyone did that perhaps there would be more posts 14:15:54 *epy 2/2 14:16:14 -!- oepy has joined. 14:16:17 *epy dir(unset) 14:16:18 ['__call__', '__class__', '__delattr__', '__dict__', '__doc__', '__get__', '__getattribute__', '__hash__', '__init__', '__module__', '__name__', '__new__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__', '__setattr__', '__str__', 'func_closure', 'func_code', 'func_defaults', 'func_dict', 'func_doc', 'func_globals', 'func_name'] 14:16:39 *epy unset.func_globals 14:16:39 {'__builtins__': , '__name__': '__main__', '__file__': 'onelineesobot.py', '__doc__': None} 14:16:41 *epy unset.func_globals['__im'+'port__'] 14:16:42 KeyError: '__import__' 14:16:49 *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__']['__im'+'port__'] 14:16:50 TypeError: 'module' object is unsubscriptable 14:16:58 *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattr__('__im'+'port__') 14:16:59 AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute '__getattr__' 14:17:04 *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__') 14:17:05 14:17:07 lol 14:19:33 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving."). 14:20:30 * oerjan hopes it will work better than the OOTS feed 14:23:49 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:24:34 -!- oepy has joined. 14:24:42 *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__') 14:24:42 14:24:47 *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__')('sys') 14:24:47 14:24:50 f 14:24:52 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:25:44 -!- oepy has joined. 14:25:45 *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__') 14:25:46 14:25:48 *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__')('sys') 14:25:48 14:25:54 . 14:25:57 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:26:44 -!- oepy has joined. 14:26:49 *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__') 14:26:49 NameError: global name 'f' is not defined 14:27:33 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:27:43 -!- oepy has joined. 14:27:44 *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__') 14:27:45 NameError: global name 'f' is not defined 14:27:50 F 14:29:51 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:29:56 -!- oepy has joined. 14:30:02 *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__') 14:30:02 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:30:08 I defined your mom last night 14:30:36 -!- oepy has joined. 14:30:37 *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__') 14:30:38 NameError: global name 'f' is not defined 14:31:33 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:31:42 -!- oepy has joined. 14:31:43 *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__') 14:31:44 TypeError: f() takes exactly 4 arguments (3 given) 14:32:36 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:32:46 -!- oepy has joined. 14:32:47 *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__') 14:32:48 14:32:51 *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__')('sys') 14:32:52 14:32:54 nooo 14:32:56 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:33:17 -!- oepy has joined. 14:33:20 *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__')('sys') 14:33:21 14:33:47 *epy __import__ 14:33:47 14:33:55 *epy __import__('a') 14:33:56 ImportError: No module named a 14:35:14 *epy ((lambda: 2)(), 3)[1] 14:35:14 3 14:35:22 *epy ((lambda: 2)(), 3)[1] 14:35:23 3 14:35:50 *wpy __import__ 14:35:52 *epy __import__ 14:35:53 14:35:55 *epy __import__ 14:35:56 14:35:59 *epy __import__('a') 14:36:00 ImportError: No module named a 14:36:03 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:36:14 -!- oepy has joined. 14:36:17 *epy __import__('a') 14:36:18 ImportError: No module named a 14:36:43 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:37:01 -!- oepy has joined. 14:37:16 *epy __import__('a') 14:37:16 TypeError: vars() argument must have __dict__ attribute 14:37:27 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:37:41 -!- oepy has joined. 14:37:47 *epy __import__('a') 14:37:47 ImportError: No module named a 14:38:10 *epy dir(__import__) 14:38:11 ['__call__', '__class__', '__cmp__', '__delattr__', '__doc__', '__getattribute__', '__hash__', '__init__', '__module__', '__name__', '__new__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__', '__self__', '__setattr__', '__str__'] 14:38:18 *epy compile('a') 14:38:19 TypeError: compile() takes at least 3 arguments (1 given) 14:38:23 *epy compile('a', '', 'expr') 14:38:23 ValueError: compile() arg 3 must be 'exec' or 'eval' or 'single' 14:38:30 *epy dir(compile('a', '', 'eval')) 14:38:31 ['__class__', '__cmp__', '__delattr__', '__doc__', '__getattribute__', '__hash__', '__init__', '__new__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__', '__setattr__', '__str__', 'co_argcount', 'co_cellvars', 'co_code', 'co_consts', 'co_filename', 'co_firstlineno', 'co_flags', 'co_freevars', 'co_lnotab', 'co_name', 'co_names', 'co_nlocals', 'co_stacksize', 'co_varnames'] 14:43:53 *epy 'c'.fail 14:43:56 AttributeError: 'str' object has no attribute 'fail' 14:44:13 oerjan: trying to fix this 14:44:13 :-P 14:44:19 right now you can wipe my home dir 14:47:29 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:48:27 what i need is a proper Death Ray Satellite, so that i can wipe your _home_ 14:49:10 I am a physicist, oerjan 14:49:13 Let's work on that 14:49:18 oerjan: yes 14:49:21 then i will eat your home. 14:49:23 for i am a snake. 14:49:34 pesky mad biologists 14:49:50 Are you... A PYTHON? 14:54:22 clearly a home viper 14:59:54 VIPPER 15:09:17 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Sukoshi is *firmly* a Lisp girl, anyways.. 15:45:02 -!- M0ny has joined. 15:45:05 -!- kar8nga has joined. 15:45:30 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 15:45:30 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:45:30 -!- g0bl1n has quit ("Leaving"). 17:05:03 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 17:05:04 -!- Slereah_ has quit. 17:08:51 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 17:16:55 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 23:53:44 -!- clog has joined. 23:53:44 -!- clog_ has joined. 2008-10-12: 00:25:27 -!- clog has quit (Connection timed out). 00:25:27 -!- clog_ has changed nick to clog. 00:49:26 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:56:51 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 01:19:09 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:21:07 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:29:48 You know what I said about pypy? Scratch that, the stuff they already have is already pretty cool ... 01:30:05 RPython programs run nearly as far as c, although the compiling takes forever 01:31:12 (If only the translator could translate itself... I don't think it's rpython though. But if the translator can get the JIT to be fast someday, and a fast JITted pypy runs the translator... well then that's pretty amazing) 01:39:11 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 02:41:09 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit. 02:41:50 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 02:50:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("killing X to finish install"). 03:07:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hehe. 03:15:29 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:29:54 -!- ihope has joined. 03:30:22 I will now create an esoteric programming language called Colorful Monkeys. 03:30:41 It will be very theoretically interesting, I'm sure. 03:30:51 It might even be Turing-complete, if you can imagine that. 03:32:26 I just may be too lazy to put this on the wiki right now, so I'll describe it here instead. 03:33:10 Memory consists of an infinite grid of spaces. Each space may be empty, or it may contain a red, green or blue monkey. One monkey is the current monkey. 03:35:59 Each step, the interpreter finds a path that starts at the current monkey and visits every other monkey exactly once, does not visit the same color monkey twice in a row, and does not return to the current monkey; this path should be as short as practically possible. 03:36:28 * ihope frowns at the unfortunate placements of "and" in that sentence. 03:40:24 Then the first monkey on the path becomes the new current monkey, and moves either toward or away from the old current monkey: red moves toward green and away from blue, green moves toward blue and away from red, blue moves toward red and away from green. The monkey moves one step in a cardinal direction, preferring horizontal movement to vertical movement if they would otherwise result in him being the same distance from the old curren 03:41:29 -!- edwardk has left (?). 03:42:57 Monkey collisions cause undefined behavior. Like with MiniMAX, the interpreter can take advantage of this to do something nice. 03:50:43 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:50:58 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:53:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:54:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:54:30 -!- immibis has joined. 03:56:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Client Quit). 04:02:21 Like running BF commands... 04:05:00 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:07:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:12:20 ihope: what? 04:15:53 is optbot a bot? 04:15:54 immibis: s/\?\?/?/ 04:16:00 er 04:16:11 optbot: !help 04:16:12 immibis: less complicated code, less instructions to execute....fewer instructions,,,faster run... 04:16:16 wtf 04:16:18 optbot:... 04:16:19 immibis: (`cuz you _know_ prime numba's are sex-ay!) 04:16:27 optbot: wtf are you 04:16:27 immibis: but I generally prefix gcc to C programs 04:40:14 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:40:19 whose is optbot? 05:40:20 immibis: or make it clear that you're being facetious 06:17:08 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("So, how much do you love noodles?"). 06:19:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:34:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:38:51 -!- habnabit_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:38:59 bah log gap 07:39:05 -!- habnabit has joined. 07:42:45 immibis: optbot doesn't do any actual commands afaik 07:42:46 oerjan: it's certainly different. 07:42:55 it converses, and changes topic 07:43:00 optbot! 07:43:00 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | that ensures that Python no longer has to keep track of the functions local state.. 07:43:09 ok that's the only command 07:44:11 i think it's ehird, although the first 'o' is supposedly named after me 07:44:19 *ehird's bot 07:56:32 ok 07:56:33 optbo! 07:56:38 optbot! 07:56:38 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | it can.. 07:56:43 optbot! 07:56:43 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | - your _darcs dir has the whole history, isn't that nice. 07:56:54 did you remember to add flood protection? 07:57:01 optbo 07:57:03 t 07:57:03 optbot 07:57:03 immibis: turing 07:57:07 ... 07:57:09 optbot 07:57:09 immibis: and HTML is not just strings 07:57:11 optbot 07:57:12 immibis: OKLOFOK 07:57:19 ...wtf... 07:57:32 [19:42] it converses, and changes topic <-- you call that conversing? 07:57:36 well it only does one thing per speaker action 07:57:47 so if it's flooding, so are you 07:58:44 optbot! optbot! 07:58:44 immibis: Not ATM. 07:58:45 although fungot has flood protection to prevent you from putting the bots against each other 07:58:46 oerjan: ( just annotate the paste: it'll keep everything together. 07:58:50 fungot? 07:58:51 immibis: heh. i think you misspelled ' fnord. 07:58:54 ^echo optbot 07:58:54 optbot optbot 07:58:54 oerjan: cool. 07:58:54 fungot: looool! 07:58:55 optbot: you are spamming. toboge, i said my theory is that i must stop saying fnord, you can 07:58:55 fungot: well duh 07:58:56 optbot: goog idea... ha_bf2c makes things much easier in this way 07:58:56 fungot: may even take too long for you to be able to wait 07:58:56 optbot: what neighborhood? 07:58:57 fungot: 0x01 can also escape 0x01 07:58:57 optbot: bawden is a clever fellow that's what has happened to sarahbot 07:58:57 fungot: that's pretty funky pixel-art there 07:59:24 ^echo optbot 07:59:25 optbot optbot 07:59:25 immibis: all languages are equally difficult, says i! 07:59:25 fungot: thought about it, yes.. did it: no :) 07:59:38 ^help 07:59:39 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 07:59:51 !bf +[] 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:10 !echo optbot 08:00:11 immibis: - Take the second and third characters of the input with 'H.' appended to it. 08:00:17 !echo optbot 08:00:17 immibis: i noticed 08:00:21 ^echo optbot 08:00:21 immibis: lol 08:00:21 optbot optbot 08:00:22 fungot: experience shows that I am shit at that sort of puzzle 08:01:00 fungot is written in befunge btw 08:01:00 oerjan: i think i will write a scheme to java 08:06:11 -!- kar8nga has joined. 08:06:50 oerjan o really? 08:06:59 a befunge bot. 08:07:41 -!- toBogE has joined. 08:09:08 !regex deeohteedeeohteedeeohtee hi replace ^echo hi 08:09:09 hi 08:09:09 ^echo hi 08:09:10 hi hi 08:09:19 !regex deeohteedeeohteedeeohtee .*hi.* replace ^echo hi 08:09:20 hi 08:09:20 ^echo hi 08:09:20 hi hi 08:09:21 ^echo hi 08:09:21 hi hi 08:09:23 ^echo hi 08:09:23 hi hi 08:09:26 ^echo hi 08:09:26 hi hi 08:09:27 ^echo hi 08:09:27 hi hi 08:09:28 ^echo hi 08:09:28 hi hi 08:09:29 ^echo hi 08:09:29 hi hi 08:09:30 ^echo hi 08:09:30 hi hi 08:09:31 ^echo hi 08:09:31 hi hi 08:09:32 ^echo hi 08:09:32 hi hi 08:09:33 ^echo hi 08:09:33 hi hi 08:09:34 ^echo hi 08:09:34 hi hi 08:09:35 -!- toBogE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:09:53 evidently fungot doesn't have flood protection 08:09:53 immibis: i'm afraid it's rather difficult to get computers to do non-constructive logical proofs, or something 08:10:10 not against commands apparently 08:10:34 or response 08:10:49 s 08:11:08 -!- toBogE has joined. 08:11:21 optbot! 08:11:22 optbot! 08:11:22 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but i can type :D. 08:11:22 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ciao. 08:11:22 optbot! 08:11:23 optbot! 08:11:23 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Do you want the physics behind it, or just the math and comp-sci part?. 08:11:23 optbot! 08:11:24 optbot! 08:11:24 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | (slightly modified from 18.05.07). 08:11:24 optbot! 08:11:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i also vaguely recall it has different levels you can set, and some features are disabled at lower levels. 08:11:26 optbot! 08:11:28 optbot! 08:11:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | did something go wrong?. 08:11:30 optbot! 08:11:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and if you do from hook into funge space code, well things would be uggly. 08:11:32 optbot! 08:11:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | for a while, I thought you were looking for IO actions.. 08:11:34 optbot! 08:11:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | they're sin tacks... 08:11:39 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | with _. 08:11:41 so it can't get flooded like that, anyway... 08:15:38 -!- Hypercaffeinated has joined. 08:17:06 * oerjan suspects a hypercaffeinated monkey 08:17:20 then again, maybe not 08:17:39 on the internet, it could be a dog 08:18:06 Or a killer mutant sea cucumber 08:18:20 hypercaffeinated is a bot 08:18:26 another one 08:18:40 * oerjan just realized 08:18:52 note it has problems with ping due to the TDWTF-worthy (TM) code I wrote ages ago. It gets lots of ping timeouts 08:18:56 !c --help 08:18:56 Usage: !c [--target={NICK|CHANNEL}] [-T] [-d] [-e] [--other=DRINKTYPE] [-mMILKTYPE] [-sNUMBER_OF_SUGARS] [-zSIZE] 08:18:57 -T: Turkish coffee -d: Decaf coffee -e: Espresso coffee 08:18:57 --other=DRINKTYPE: Make a non-coffee drink 08:18:57 -mMILKTYPE milktype can be none, hot, cold, frth, agnet, agnetic, or chocolate or a user defined string 08:18:57 -zSIZE size can be 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or a user defined string 08:18:58 --target={NICK|CHANNEL} Give the coffee to the specified nick/channel 08:19:00 -sNUMBER_OF_SUGARS Give a negative value for an infinite number 08:19:02 Usage: !t NICK|CHANNEL MESSAGE 08:19:03 (note to self: condense help) 08:19:04 Send the specified MESSAGE to the specified NICK or CHANNEL (if a channel, the bot must be in that channel) 08:19:49 (note to immibis: condense help something drastic) 08:19:55 Blah, killer mutant sea cucumbers are a lot cooler than bots 08:20:27 I AM A ROBOT KILLER MUTANT SEA CUCUMBER 08:20:44 btw its called hypercaffeinated because it makes coffee 08:20:46 i'm afraid the best attempt so far at making sea cucumbers sentient took more than 500 million years 08:20:49 :O 08:21:08 Good thing it's been 500 million years then :) 08:21:22 * Hypercaffeinated is making a coffee in an office mug with cold milk for this channel 08:21:23 * Hypercaffeinated gives everyone in this channel a coffee in an office mug with cold milk 08:21:34 oh wait that was not a sea cucumber 08:21:55 oh no, it's _that_ bot 08:22:06 * oerjan shivers and remembers 08:22:26 i should try to not annoy anyone for 24 hours. 08:25:47 -!- Hypercaffeinated has changed nick to coffeebot. 08:31:44 immibis: Yes, no flood protection at all in fungot. Still, I don't think it has yet excess-flooded. optbot has some sort of delay for messages, though. 08:31:44 fizzie: if that wasn't enough, liberal printf sprinkling in the code helps 08:31:44 fizzie: i guess what theblunderbuss suggested 08:32:01 http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 08:32:01 fizzie: i didn't have gdbm installed? 08:32:24 fungot: Uh... what do you want gdbm for? 08:32:25 fizzie: so the name integer also specifies a fnord of the list 08:32:47 fungot: what's a fnord? 08:32:48 immibis: that doesn't explain my problem. it set-car!'d the car of a list 08:33:06 fungot: um have you been looking at car magazines again? 08:33:07 immibis: iirc with floating points tend to have their stock price display on my home systems... 08:35:31 Not too coherent chatter today. 08:36:04 fungot: do you want gdbm to be more coherent? 08:36:04 oerjan: can you think of fungot?" 08:36:22 fungot: ah so it's to become self-aware? 08:36:22 oerjan: it creates freedom of choice 08:36:31 gdbm needs to be more self-aware. 08:36:35 i mean 08:36:37 fungot: gdbm needs to be more self-aware. 08:36:38 immibis: it can generate so fast code and yet be tolerable to deal with 08:38:04 fungot: code is not snakes, ffs. 08:38:04 immibis: heh. i've just read a fnord into memory, sticking the data section last, and just include " scheme48.h" 08:38:35 fungot: ^bf +++++++++++++.---. 08:38:36 immibis: is it just that? sure, just paste it here 08:38:42 ^bf +++++++++++++.---. 08:38:42 .. 08:39:37 ^bf +[.+] 08:39:38 ............................... !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ... 08:40:07 oh it does > 127 chars 08:40:31 ^bf -[.-] 08:40:31 ~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:987654321 ... 08:40:56 !bf +[[.+]+] 08:40:57 08:40:58 08:40:59 >?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnop 08:41:00 qrstuvwxyz{|}~ 08:41:01 08:41:02 08:41:04 shit wrong bot 08:41:04 08:41:06 >?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnop 08:41:06 qrstuvwxyz{|}~ 08:41:08 08:41:10 08:41:14 08:41:16 >?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnop 08:41:18 -!- toBogE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:41:22 -!- coffeebot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:41:40 -!- toBogE has joined. 08:41:59 -!- Hypercaffeinated has joined. 08:42:34 !r nick CoffeeBot 08:42:35 fizzie: what about just censoring 10 and 13? 08:42:57 -!- Hypercaffeinated has changed nick to CoffeeBot. 08:42:59 oerjan: it does, did you look at the output? 08:43:06 immibis: _just_ 08:43:09 Yes, but it does everything <32. 08:43:14 You can't do CTCP with it right now. 08:44:26 Maybe I could just do 10 and 13, although the control characters aren't very pretty when output. 08:44:36 of course +c censors some others 08:45:34 What's with the unicode issues it has, anyway... it should just repeat them bytes back like they came in. 08:46:01 ^bf ,[.,]!it's a lambda: λ <- yay, a lambda! 08:46:01 it's a lambda: .. <- yay, a lambda! 08:46:06 yes... did you censor > 127 previously? 08:46:26 ^echo æ e i a æ å 08:46:26 .. e i a .. .. .. e i a .. .. 08:46:34 strange 08:46:40 I didn't. It might be a "characters are input as signed numbers" thing, which would leave the cells to be <0. 08:46:48 While the normal +- manipulation does mod-256. 08:46:54 oh 08:47:10 hm that means you could fix it with a +- extra? 08:47:13 ^show echo 08:47:13 >,[.>,]<[<]+32[.>] 08:47:32 ^def echo2 bf >,[.>,+-]<[<]+32[.>] 08:47:32 Defined. 08:47:39 ^echo2 æ e i a æ å 08:47:40 . e i a æ å.. e i a æ å 08:47:43 oops 08:47:56 oh wait 08:48:03 ^def echo2 bf >,+-[.>,+-]<[<]+32[.>] 08:48:04 Defined. 08:48:06 ^echo2 æ e i a æ å 08:48:06 æ e i a æ å.æ e i a æ å 08:48:13 ah 08:48:19 ^echo test 08:48:19 test test 08:48:37 except why the . instead of space? 08:49:05 ^bf +[>+] 08:49:12 ...out of time! 08:49:21 ah if ] tests mod 256 but it's not _actually_ a 0? 08:49:23 ^bf +[>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+] 08:49:29 ...out of time! 08:49:42 oh wait 08:50:09 ^def echo2 bf >,+-[.>,+-]<[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.>] 08:50:10 Defined. 08:50:16 ^echo2 æ e i a æ å 08:50:16 æ e i a æ å æ e i a æ å 08:52:02 ^bf +++++[>----------<-]>.-------------------. 08:52:02 λ 08:52:38 I'll have to try and remember to add a 91g% in the input handling. 08:53:10 Or actually a 91g+91g%, since % doesn't like negative numbers that much. 08:54:11 (I keep the constant 256 in (9, 1) when doing brainfuck, so I don't have to do 88+:* or anything like that.) 08:54:17 256-69 08:54:20 er 08:54:49 187 08:54:55 Yeah 08:55:04 I didn't mean to hit enter... 08:55:08 256-50, 256-50-19 => 206, 187 => 0xce 0xbb, the UTF-8 for U+03BB. 09:01:19 ^reload 09:01:19 Reloaded. 09:01:27 ^bf ,[.,]!it's a lambda: λ <- yay, a lambda! 09:01:27 it's a lambda: λ <- yay, a lambda! 09:01:35 Okay, no need for workarounds any more. 09:07:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | some funky UK os. 09:16:51 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:18:50 -!- toBogE has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:20:31 -!- CoffeeBot has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:23:08 ^ul () 09:23:40 ^ul ()S 09:23:46 hm 09:23:48 ^show 09:23:49 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul echo2 09:24:04 ^ul (?)S 09:24:06 ? 09:25:46 Empty strings probably count as "no output". 09:25:58 ^ul (:)(])*S 09:26:02 :] 09:26:24 Anyway, it'll be a couple of magnitudes faster when I get that stand-alone interpreter fungotized. 09:26:24 fizzie: what's the name of 09:26:47 ^ul (()()()())()* 09:26:50 ^ul (()()()())()*S 09:26:55 ^ul (()()()())(wef)*S 09:27:00 ()()()() 09:27:08 ...out of time! 09:27:13 xD 09:27:23 ^ul (lol)S 09:27:31 lol 09:27:36 oh my god 09:27:50 there's nothing sexier than slow computation 09:27:55 so slow you can do it faster yourself 09:28:18 ^ul ((lol)S)^ 09:28:26 ...out of time! 09:28:32 ^ul ((o)S)^ 09:28:35 except that's not cool. 09:28:40 ...out of time! 09:28:47 ^ul (oS)^ 09:32:36 ^ul (asd)(ffooo)~*S 09:32:44 ...out of time! 09:33:31 ^ul (asd)(ffooo)*S 09:33:39 ...out of time! 09:33:41 ^ul (a)(b)~*S 09:33:47 ba 09:33:55 yay! :D 09:34:17 -!- olsner has joined. 09:34:45 Yes, it runs out of time for just about anything. 09:34:58 ^ul (123456789)S 09:35:06 ...out of time! 09:35:09 ^ul (123456)S 09:35:16 123456 09:35:21 Wow, _six_ characters! 09:35:25 ^ul (1234567)S 09:35:32 1234567 09:35:34 ^ul (1234568)S 09:35:41 1234568 09:35:47 :o 09:35:49 It goes up to eleven, uh, I mean, eight. 09:36:02 umm 09:36:04 Wait, I messeded up. :p 09:36:06 you dropped the 7 09:36:07 ^ul (12345678)S 09:36:10 :) 09:36:15 123 ...out of time! 09:36:18 Heheh. 09:36:25 Broke down when writing the output. 09:36:45 wow 09:36:47 cool 09:36:48 ^ul (abcdefgh)S 09:36:56 ...out of time! 09:37:03 Seems to depend on the characters, even. 09:37:12 if only the time limit wasn't *that* short, you cannot do *any* flow control with that 09:37:26 how does it run that? 09:37:28 ^ul (!!!!!!!!!)S 09:37:33 !!!!!!!!! 09:37:34 yeah 09:37:34 ^ul ((x)S)^ 09:37:37 that's what i thought 09:37:42 ...out of time! 09:37:45 ^ul (!!!!!!!!!!!!)S 09:37:45 Aw. 09:37:52 !!!!!!!!!!!! 09:37:57 but small ascii code shouldn't help with befunge 09:38:04 ^ul (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)S 09:38:08 i guess it does though 09:38:08 The Underload interpreter is brainfuck. 09:38:11 ^show ul 09:38:11 oh. 09:38:12 ...out of time! 09:38:12 >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>] 09:38:16 well then that's kinda obvious 09:38:19 That's not all of it. 09:38:23 i know 09:38:34 i'm not blind :) 09:39:56 it would be too awesome if oklopol were blind 09:40:13 sad, but awesome 09:47:01 Let's see what I broke. 09:47:03 ^reload 09:47:03 Reloaded. 09:47:10 ^bf +.>+++++++++++++++[>++++>++++++>+++++++>++>+++++<<<<<-]>+++++.++.>------.>>>--.++++++.-.<++.<.++++++++++.>.<<+++++++++++++.+++++++++++.---.>+++.<----.<<. 09:47:10 ACTION is alive 09:47:21 ^bf ++++++++++.+++. 09:47:22 .. 09:47:30 ^bf ++++++++. 09:47:31 09:47:41 ^bf +++++++. 09:47:55 I think +c might filter ^G out. 09:48:06 whaz ^G 09:48:13 The "bell" character. 09:48:16 Should cause a beep. 09:49:04 oh, seven. 09:49:18 Yes, ^A=1 and so on. 09:49:22 And ^@ = 0. 09:49:35 this i reverse-engineered from ^G, yes 09:49:38 ^def ctcp bf +.,[.,]+. 09:49:38 Defined. 09:49:42 ^ctcp ACTION is alive! 09:49:43 * fungot is alive! 09:50:53 ^bf +[.+] 09:50:53 .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ... 09:51:22 Doesn't the CTCP PING echo whatever was sent? 09:51:25 ^ctcp PING fungot 09:51:33 Maybe not. 09:51:57 10:51 fungot [n=fungot@momus.zem.fi] requested CTCP PING from #esoteric: fungot 09:51:58 oerjan: there was a brain? 09:52:08 Oh, it does, but since it's NOTICE it won't respond. 09:52:45 oklopol's client sure is strange, though: it responded with "PING 1223801452" instead of "PING fungot" like everyone else. 09:52:45 fizzie: who is zippy? 09:53:02 what NOTICE? 09:53:08 i have the most popular irc client in the world. 09:53:14 CTCP replies are sent as 'NOTICE' messages, not 'PRIVMSG's. 09:53:21 ah 09:53:22 MOST 09:53:23 POPULAR 09:53:24 EVER 09:53:56 Which is actually according to the spec: all automatic replies to PRIVMSG messages should be sent as NOTICEs -- and no automatic replices should be sent for NOTICEs ever -- in order to avoid loops. 09:54:15 No-one writes ircbots like that, though, since the notices look so ugly. 09:55:04 Although I think ircii converted privmsg->notice when a script tried to reply to a privmsg. 09:55:42 ^bool 09:55:42 Yes. 09:56:08 sHOULD i wATCH aNOTHER ePISODE oF sOUTHERN pARCKK?? 09:56:10 ^bool 09:56:11 No. 09:56:15 OOK. 09:56:28 then what should i do? 09:56:31 ^answer 09:57:26 You should DONATE ALL YOUR MONEY TO ME. 09:57:38 You heard the bot. 09:58:22 but then how would i buy my porridges :<<< 09:58:31 Then I will use it to buy BEER AND HOOKERS. 09:58:37 fungot: Wait, that was not part of the deal! 09:58:45 you'll have to make do with bark porridge 09:58:52 i have to read about a hundred pages today, so i guess i'll start doing that 09:58:59 What type of hookers do bots need? 09:59:06 fembotzzzzzzzzzzzzz 09:59:41 Ah, I should have known. 10:27:05 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 11:05:14 hmm 11:05:22 i actually *did* watch another episode 11:05:27 but that was an accident 11:05:35 this time i won't watch if the bot says no 11:05:38 ^bool 11:05:56 but what if it says nothing at all... that's a good question 11:06:11 i'll take that as a yes, because i'm feeling lazy 11:07:26 ^help 11:07:33 oklopol, I think it timed out? 11:07:56 -!- habnabit has left (?). 11:07:56 fizzie, ^ 11:07:59 It got confused again when I said that 'not part of the deal'. 11:08:01 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:08:11 I really need to debug that thing. 11:08:20 But not now. 11:08:26 nice part message of habnabit 11:08:35 -!- fungot has joined. 11:08:39 ^bool 11:08:40 No. 11:08:42 ^help 11:08:42 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 11:08:48 ^show 11:08:49 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul 11:08:52 retroactive test: 11:08:52 ^show bool 11:08:52 ^bool 11:08:53 No. 11:08:57 ..no? 11:08:59 well, too late 11:09:03 'bool' is not a brainfuck command. 11:09:09 fizzie, no in help either? 11:09:27 Yes, the help text needs updating. 11:10:01 I think I'll first try to fungotize that underload interp so that I can add that to ^help too. Not that it's hard to modify the help text or anything. 11:10:02 fizzie: there are __ printab_e characters in ascii? iirc, scheme doesn't use t and nil 11:10:28 btw what is the C++ish way to generate random numbers? Just cstdlib and rand() or? 11:11:01 or something like std::random ? 11:11:09 (or whatever madness they decided) 11:12:04 fungot, scheme uses #t and #f for boolean, but the rest of that line made no sense 11:12:05 AnMaster: that's true :p. google did indeed have sufficient context 11:12:15 Google have context? 11:12:19 That's news to me 11:15:40 Probably just #include and std::rand(). 11:16:11 hm ok 11:16:39 another thing what was the syntax for parameters with default values now again? 11:17:13 The standard one, just "=default" after the parameter name. 11:18:42 -!- Mony has joined. 11:19:02 plop 11:19:12 fizzie, ah 11:20:39 If I recall correctly the default values need to specified only in the declaration seen by the calling code. So int func(int param=42); in the headers, but int func(int param) { ... } is enough for the actual definition. 11:21:58 And it has the usual common-sense restrictions for positional parameters with default values; no parameters without default values allowed after some default-valued parameters and so on. 11:22:16 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 11:22:26 ^def ctcp bf +.,[.,]+. 11:22:26 Defined. 11:22:27 ^save 11:22:27 OK. 11:22:52 ^ctcp ACTION forgot the ^ctcp command with that previous crash. :/ 11:22:52 * fungot forgot the ^ctcp command with that previous crash. :/ 11:31:20 hm I need to do something portable for srand(), gettimeofday() is posix only, time(NULL) would return same seed for a whole second, and this program may very well be run several times per second 11:31:24 so any good idea? 11:31:41 needs to be portable C++ in fact 11:32:27 fizzie, any good idea? 11:32:35 Ask the user to provide a seed. :p 11:33:11 fizzie, blergh, not really an option :/ Won't interact with user 99% of the time 11:33:31 Take a command-line argument, then. :p 11:33:40 There really isn't many portable things you could use; getting process ids and such is inherently even less portable. 11:34:24 Although there's clock() -- it's not _guaranteed_ to have any better resolution than time() but it just might. 11:34:46 And since it's "processor time used" it's a bit unrandom at the start of the program. 11:35:04 hm 11:35:04 (Though not even the "processor time used" is part of the standard.) 11:35:27 fizzie, considering this is C++, isn't there anything in the STL stuff one could use? 11:35:52 Not that I know, but I'm not really a C++ person. STL is mostly containers and such fluff. 11:36:02 hm ok 11:36:05 oh well 11:42:25 (away.) 11:42:32 fizzie, is there any portable way to test for gettimeofday() hm? 11:45:51 Of course not; your build system probably needs to do it. 11:47:16 "POSIX.1-2008 marks gettimeofday() as obsolete." 11:47:21 huh? 11:47:33 can't find what they want instead 11:49:11 oh my seems clock_gettime() is what they want 12:29:43 btw I found that 64-bit Linux at least will have no issues with unix time wrapping in 2038, time_t is 64-bit here 13:01:58 awwww, my befunge interpreter keeps printing hearts at me :) 13:11:54 :D 13:11:55 <3 13:12:09 yes, optbot is "oerjan's terrible puns bot" but I rearranged the letters after 5,0000000 typos 13:12:09 ehird: okay 13:12:37 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:14:17 oh 13:14:18 I see 13:14:22 immibis was bot abusing 13:14:37 Could fizzie/someone ban CO2Games and immibis if they keep this up? 13:14:44 I don't recall them doing any non-bot-abuse-related thing lately. 13:15:06 00:18:20 hypercaffeinated is a bot 13:15:06 00:18:26 another one 13:15:12 ^ Two lines that made me unhappy. 13:15:48 00:21:55 oh no, it's _that_ bot 13:15:48 00:22:06 * oerjan shivers and remembers 13:15:53 Heh. 13:15:57 00:22:26 i should try to not annoy anyone for 24 hours. 13:16:00 How about forever. 13:16:04 00:31:44 immibis: Yes, no flood protection at all in fungot. Still, I don't think it has yet excess-flooded. optbot has some sort of delay for messages, though. 13:16:04 ehird: self.say("OMG " + frame + " REPEATS") 13:16:05 ehird: i want a garbage collector. 13:16:06 No it doesn't. 13:19:05 i suggest we put a strict maximal limit on bot usage in this channel, and ban everyone who passes it. that way i can laugh when ehird is one of the first to be banned. 13:19:05 coooool 13:19:06 immibis 13:19:34 oerjan: I suggest the bot owners ban people who abuse. 13:19:38 If immibis repeats last night again, optbot will ignore him permanently. 13:19:38 ehird: but 13:19:39 immy is my hero 13:19:42 optbot: Lmao. 13:19:42 ehird: you could just loop from 2 to sqrt_of_n 13:19:46 oh, right, yes i could 13:20:08 optbot: we've made naive prime-checkers before. 13:20:08 oklopol: bf c__ 13:20:42 ehird: well my point is that i don't think it is any less annoying when people abuse their own bots 13:20:52 oerjan: When have I abused my own bot recently? 13:20:53 and that includes testing 13:21:09 I don't get what you're accusing me of. 13:21:22 ehird: you can get pretty spammy. 13:21:33 oklopol: [citation needed], please 13:21:44 i can try to search the logs 13:21:49 when one is testing something, one doesn't notice how many lines fly by 13:21:58 oklopol: thanks. 13:22:12 oerjan: i'd like some kind of idea of what you're accusing me of as a recent event 13:23:17 ehird: actually i'm not sure how to search for generic spam. 13:23:50 because i don't remember a specific instance, i'm just pretty sure i've seen you botflood when testing 13:24:11 for instance when we were doing that topic ca thing 13:24:32 and when i was testing oklotalk; of course, in both these instances, i'm the main spammer 13:25:07 but i'm fairly sure you were quite spammy too, on both occasions 13:25:34 'topic ca thing'? 13:25:42 oklotalk may be a bad example, you may just have run like two lines, and also i'm not sure you spammed at all on *this* channel, when the topic thing happened 13:25:49 oh 13:25:51 that was in esoteric-blah 13:25:54 ehird: yes, it ran 110 on the topic 13:25:56 but i did it in esoteric recently 13:25:57 but 13:26:00 ehird: some of it was here too 13:26:01 that only took like 13:26:02 5 iterations 13:26:04 so 13:26:05 also 13:26:07 oklotalk 13:26:08 wasn't spam 13:26:10 everyone was participating 13:26:13 and asking questions about it 13:26:17 testing = spam :) 13:26:23 well yeah i guess 13:26:23 also 13:26:25 writing 13:26:28 single 13:26:31 words 13:26:32 is 13:26:33 i dunno, i'm just trying to help oerjan out 13:26:35 spam 13:26:45 :) 13:27:18 oerjan: no that's stream of conciousness. 13:28:24 i do think ehird has done some serious spamming when testing things. but i cannot recall a specific instance, so i'm kinda doubting myself here 13:28:33 oerjan: could you show me an instance? 13:28:41 no 13:28:47 i can only recall myself spamming like hell, when testing stuff 13:28:57 my bots actually just implant memories into your mind 13:29:01 they implanted the memory of spamming 13:29:02 but 13:29:05 removed specific instances 13:29:11 i see 13:29:15 i like coding in public, faster to code when people see you fail 13:29:27 "oh god i failed gotta fix fasttttt" 13:29:43 i hate coding late at night 13:29:43 actually the point is we like to spam, and would like ehird to stop complaining about it :D 13:29:47 i always rush and fuck things up 13:29:54 oerjan: :D 13:30:06 oerjan: actually, fizzie and others were annoyed by CO2Games too 13:30:32 i like the fast, ugly, hackery kinda coding the most, you get results slowly, but the process is fast 13:30:56 i start off quick&hacky 13:30:57 but 13:31:01 then when it gets bigger 13:31:06 i make it slightly more 'managed' 13:31:08 incrementally 13:31:12 until it's fully done but i can still read it 13:31:13 the ops don't count they have an easy annoyance chip implanted when they get the privileges 13:31:33 oerjan: no, but when fizzie asked wtf that was about people were annoyed too in reply 13:32:01 meanwhile http://unicodesnowmanforyou.com/ 13:32:06 awwww, my befunge interpreter keeps printing hearts at me :) <-- heh? 13:32:24 joke or bug or both? 13:33:37 that's unicode? 13:34:17 oerjan: yes 13:34:21 ☃ 13:34:26 unicode snowman for you! 13:34:29 a circle segment right at the top of the page? 13:34:30 wtf 13:34:34 AnMaster: no. 13:34:38 ehird, in ff2 yes 13:34:49 no, that's because you don't have a font with the full unicode character set. 13:35:03 No unicode snowman for you. ☃ 13:35:14 ehird, well on irc it works 13:35:22 and it looked like the lower part of that symbol 13:35:23 Meanwhile: http://☃.net/ 13:35:24 does _anyone_ have such a font, really? 13:35:25 just outside the page 13:35:29 oerjan: ye 13:35:29 s 13:35:31 I do. 13:35:38 oerjan, I do too 13:35:40 on irc 13:35:41 it's called code2000 13:35:43 Dejavu 13:35:45 is the name of it 13:35:49 ahahah 13:35:52 dejavu is not a c omplete set 13:35:53 based on bitstream vera sans 13:35:57 ehird, ah maybe 13:36:03 but it has ☃ 13:36:04 code2000 and its addon is 13:36:10 ehird, free? 13:36:18 yes 13:36:22 but not as in speech 13:36:22 iirc 13:36:27 "shareware" 13:36:31 but... without the share part 13:36:34 ware? 13:36:39 something like that 13:36:43 wareware? 13:36:48 lol, "shareware demo font"? 13:36:51 beats me 13:36:52 http://www.code2000.net/#dn 13:37:06 ehird, is there a more complete version? 13:37:15 hm? 13:37:21 code200{0,1,2} should be a complete unicode set 13:37:25 code2000 is, really 13:37:25 but 13:37:32 code200{1,2} assign some undefined characters 13:37:35 to miscellaneous stuff 13:38:03 they are not all undefined 13:38:17 well, okay 13:38:20 but yah: "The Code2000 download has been freely available and fully functional all along. It is an inexpensive shareware, though, and registration fees are much needed and much appreciated. " 13:38:27 by shareware he means "it works fully, but plz givs me moneys" 13:38:40 [[ 13:38:40 Users are required to register the font after a “reasonable” evaluation period if they like the font and continue to use it. However, determining what is “reasonable” is left for the user to decide.]] 13:38:43 5,000 years 13:39:56 i like the guy's attitude, though 13:40:02 as in, only register if you can reasonably afford it and such 13:47:29 AnMaster: it was printing extraneous \x03 due to a problem with y, which my terminal shows as ♥ 13:48:18 Asztal, what language is it coded in? 13:48:29 C++ 13:48:38 ok.. 13:48:41 Asztal, name? 13:48:48 nowadays I'd probably choose something else though 13:48:53 Lee 13:49:06 he probably meant the interpreter 13:49:09 AnMaster: http://asztal.net/projects/befunge98 13:49:19 >_> 13:50:05 Asztal: what would you choose these days then? 13:50:19 hm 13:50:23 it's not actually called sponge now, anyway, I think I decided on stinkhorn when given the list of fungi 13:50:26 Deewiant, yes 13:52:04 Deewiant: I would probably try C# or Haskell, maybe D because of it's metaprogramming abilities 13:52:11 "The befunge-98 interpreter is currently all written in C++, and compiles under Visual C++ or G++. I currently have no plans to extend support to other languages."? 13:52:25 like... C? 13:52:28 or like trefunge? 13:52:32 That means no wrappers for python etc. 13:52:35 Asztal: all good choices, I don't have to complain to you ;-) 13:52:58 Asztal, wrappers for python? Huh? 13:53:05 also there is one in haskell at least 13:53:10 It supports trefunge, though I wouldn't be too trusting with the funge-space implementation :) 13:53:27 Asztal, how would a wrapper for python be useful? 13:53:36 it is a freestanding program, not a library 13:53:42 as far as I understand? 13:54:24 wait are you coding it mainly for Windows!? 13:54:26 ugh 13:54:26 yes, but it shouldn't be terribly difficult to change that if I wanted to (which I don't) 13:54:44 I've tested it on linux, and it does work 13:54:54 Asztal, "HRTI — with microsecond accuracy on windows" 13:55:03 try gettimeofday() on *nix 13:55:11 microsecond? not hardly 13:55:11 it gives microsecond here. 13:55:23 Deewiant, "not hardly"? 13:55:36 AnMaster: it means softly 13:55:36 ah, that was a quote from there 13:55:45 also it can be done on windows iirc, "GetPerformanceCounterExExEx" or something probably 13:56:10 oklopol, ... 13:56:14 yeah, QueryPerformanceCounter 13:56:21 Deewiant, what about the Ex? 13:56:27 no Ex for you! 13:56:28 Did they leave them off for once? 13:56:45 also a pitty HRTI doesn't allow nano second 13:56:54 because POSIX can do that with clock_gettime 13:57:06 AnMaster: right, true, i guess it just means we're not positive on the axis of "hardly", so we're prolly either neutrally or softly 13:57:10 would have to ifdef it still since it is an optional posix one 13:57:20 oklopol, hah 13:58:31 ardly hever appen 13:58:36 CLOCK_MONOTONIC would probably be best, which is even more optional, so CLOCK_REALTIME (which is only as optional as clock_gettime) as a fallback 13:58:47 then gettimeofday() as a second level fallback 13:59:05 but since HRTI doesn't go down to nanoseconds there is no point in doing that :( 13:59:34 oerjan, what happened to the other h? 14:00:08 was taken by an urricane 14:00:22 oh ok 14:31:20 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 14:36:44 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 14:45:15 On #esoteric today: AnMaster recoils after learning that something is related to Windows. 14:45:28 Hastily bombards person with how to immediately switch to a POSIX-compliant OS. 14:51:06 News at 11. 14:51:16 Deewiant, ? 14:51:46 Deewiant: yes, an in-depth special on this rare event 15:07:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and voila. 15:09:38 -!- slereah has joined. 15:09:38 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:43:12 -!- Mony has quit ("reboot"). 15:45:36 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 15:45:36 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:50:00 -!- slereah has joined. 15:50:00 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:53:01 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:53:07 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 16:09:24 -!- slereah has joined. 16:09:24 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:36:03 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 17:02:24 -!- LinuS has joined. 17:02:48 -!- LinuS has quit (Client Quit). 17:31:35 -!- Mony has joined. 18:21:29 Hello, MONA 18:23:18 that wasn't very nice 18:23:30 also i like your nick better like that, without the capital 18:25:32 Why not nice? 18:25:36 Mona is a kitty :((( 18:30:50 anyone seen ais523? 18:31:00 away for 43 hours hm 18:31:04 and 20 minutes 18:31:09 (and a few sec) 18:31:27 ehird, there? 18:31:51 ehird, does the bouncer log /msg and display them when you ais connects next time? 18:32:03 -!- fizzie2 has joined. 18:32:11 hi fizzie2 18:32:17 AnMaster: I wonder how many times I'm going to have to point you to the day of the week before you realise to stop asking me this question every Sunday? 18:32:26 I think I've done it about 3-5 times now. 18:32:28 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 18:32:30 ehird, and the second question? 18:32:30 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:32:37 Yes it does. 18:32:39 also he is sometimes here on Sunday 18:32:41 ehird, thanks 18:33:06 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)). 18:33:15 -!- fizzie2 has changed nick to fizzie. 18:34:16 One of the network cables I have doesn't really have that thing that goes click, so it got loose when I was trying to move them computers from the previous setting ("in a big pile on top of each other") into a shelf. 18:35:04 heh 18:36:08 been there 18:55:20 -!- deveah has joined. 18:55:34 mornin leet dudes 19:11:25 'sup bro 19:11:34 Are you chillin' daddy-o? 19:11:45 Are you jiggy with it, dawg 19:12:11 dude, understand I have not. 19:15:56 'soup /b/ 19:31:36 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:35:21 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 19:40:04 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:56:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:58:08 -!- deveah has left (?). 20:12:30 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:21:07 -!- Mony has quit ("Ne regrettons pas le passé, ne nous préoccupons pas de l'avenir : le sage vit dans le présent."). 20:45:10 Out of curiosity, what should happen if a Funge-98 IP were to hit the > on the line ";>#;"? (Quotes not part of the line, obviously.) 21:03:07 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:04:57 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:07:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | If (x,y) is in the set, f(x) = y.. 21:11:58 fizzie, in what program? 21:12:16 oh you mean from above 21:12:26 fizzie, well it would begin executing code there 21:12:52 which means jump over the ;, hitting the second (first one line) ; 21:13:07 so it jumps to matching ; at the end 21:13:13 then wraps hits the first ; again 21:13:31 and so on until some other thread hit q or use p to change that place 21:13:37 Yes, but what happens to the other IPs? ;...; takes no ticks and same for space. 21:13:49 oh good question 21:13:52 fizzie, I guess lockup then 21:14:11 the funge interpreter isn't required to detect and prevent infinite loops 21:14:13 That was my conclusion too, but it sounds a bit strange. 21:14:38 fizzie, unless the interpreter is threaded with MVRS 21:14:54 because the different universes there doesn't need to be in sync 21:15:11 in fact allowing taking advantage of multi-core 21:15:41 but with plain t you got an issue yes 21:16:19 fizzie, the same would happen if you use certain fingerprints that jump without changing delta, to jump to an empty line 21:16:25 If (x,y) is in the set, f(x) = y 21:16:32 not necessarily true! 21:16:47 * pikhq nods 21:17:59 Who said the set in question describes a function? 21:18:33 in this very isolated quotation, noone! :o 21:18:37 it could merely define a relation! 21:18:51 Indeed! 21:18:54 it depends on whether or not there exists a z != y such that (x,z) is also in the set! 21:18:57 tricky tricky 21:19:42 In fact, it could very well be f(y) = x. ;p 21:21:31 well, no, it couldn't. 21:21:58 since the convention is that if f is a function, then (x,y) in f can be written f(x) = y 21:22:15 alternatively, tho, f^-1(y) = x 21:22:16 :P 21:22:52 Fuck convention. 21:22:54 :P 21:23:12 Convention says jack shit about formal definitions. 21:23:32 well, orthographical conventions ARE formal definitions 21:23:49 Yeah, well... 21:23:51 after all, a formal system is a system based on the form of the thing in question 21:23:54 hence, orthography. 21:23:54 :P 21:23:55 No argument. 21:24:25 not that you couldn't define f(x) = y as an abbreviation for (y,x) instead of (x,y) 21:24:31 the only the that matters is consistency 21:25:13 since ordered pairs are really not ordered any way we'd normally perceive as being order. in the abstract sense, anyway 21:54:07 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 21:56:44 o 22:01:25 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:49:11 -!- slereah has joined. 22:49:11 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:49:51 oko 23:18:01 -!- g0bl1n has joined. 23:18:31 can this brainf*ck initialization be reduced ? 23:18:33 +++[>+++++++[>++++>+++>+>+++++>+++++>++<<<<<<-]>>+>+++>++>->++[<]<-] 23:21:46 AnMaster, any hint ? :) 23:24:21 can it be shortened ? 23:26:36 If you have a zero in the cell to the left of the initial one (like you'd probably have with a wrapping array) you could maybe save a whopping one (1) character by replacing "<<<<<<" with "[<]>>". Not going to try thinking of a better way to set the actual numbers. 23:30:10 i have no zero, i'd have to create another cell i believe 23:30:13 let me try 23:30:38 i tried that solution and it enters an infiniteloop 23:31:09 You should be able to represent what you're trying to achieve as a string then run it through calamari's genetic algorithm. 23:32:42 GregorR, yes I have the string (the final result). where do i get calamari's genetic algorithm ? 23:33:39 fizzie, you just saved me 1 byte ;) 23:38:28 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:38:47 can this be reduced ? 23:38:49 +.---.+++++++. 23:39:22 or 2008: >>>++.--..++++++++. 23:39:38 can 2008 be reduced ? 23:39:48 one more cell would not help, agree ? 23:47:46 -!- OverNord has joined. 23:55:02 http://video.xtube.com/watch.php?v_user_id=FukGender&cv=0&idx=3&v=985m8n6P3po&cl=xTxnsh8b7mY&from=&ver=3&ccaa=1&qid=&qidx=&qnum=&preview_flag= 23:56:08 -!- OverNord has left (?). 23:59:41 * GregorR reappears. 23:59:57 g0bl1n: It's in the files archive somewhere, just a sec. 2008-10-13: 00:00:18 http://esolangs.org/files/brainfuck/util/textgen.java 00:20:07 GregorR, how can i run it ? linux here 00:38:08 ... it's Java. 00:48:06 i try to run it with gij-4.1 but get an error 00:54:22 -!- dmb has joined. 01:12:38 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("bye"). 01:14:56 -!- dmb_ has joined. 01:15:20 -!- dmb_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:23:08 -!- dmb has quit (Connection timed out). 01:44:50 GregorR, the textgen.java gets results worst then me :) 01:49:15 mine: 141 bytes. textgen, till now: 159 01:55:56 GregorR, thank you 01:56:43 -!- g0bl1n has quit ("Leaving"). 02:09:29 God, I'm a glutton for punishment. I'm remerging my system to change my CFLAGS. 02:23:43 You're using Gentoo? You're right, you are a glutton for punishment. 02:23:53 You enjoy that immeasurably tiny speedup though. 02:43:57 Generally I don't care much about the CFLAGS... 02:44:29 For some reason, I have recently come of the opinion that -Os instead of -O2 will be faster (due to my small cache and slow hard drive), though. 02:45:04 And figured 'well, -Os is one of those CFLAGS that's actually sane to use, and it's not like recompiling is that big of a deal; why not?' 02:45:20 Then I started the whole thing, and realised that that'll take a few days. 02:50:29 ¿˙ 02:50:29 O <(Look, it's iChat on IRC!) 02:56:26 -!- kwertii has joined. 03:07:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | what 'x = x and y (boolean)' does?. 03:48:32 -!- immibis has joined. 03:48:36 -!- toBogE has joined. 05:08:43 -!- toBogE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:11:46 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. and dlte ur files. and email ths to). 05:38:49 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection timed out). 06:10:56 -!- ab5tract has joined. 06:19:52 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out). 06:20:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:30:55 -!- AnMaster has joined. 07:36:20 ais523, there? 07:36:29 ais523, seems c-intercal was added to portage(!) 07:39:29 !!! 07:40:02 Congrats, ais523. 07:40:45 And AnMaster, congrats on having an ebuild in Portage. 07:44:30 in other news I had to hit reset button first thing this morning 07:44:34 even sysrq was dead 07:44:51 that is on the computer with the bnc 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:27:15 -!- ab5tract has quit. 08:39:28 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to xor. 08:41:53 -!- xor has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 08:44:29 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to xor_. 09:07:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I'm preparing a Giki 1.5.0 release.. 09:30:36 -!- kwertii has quit ("night"). 09:54:17 optbot 09:54:17 AnMaster: nothing really 09:54:18 optbot! 09:54:19 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hm?. 10:24:16 -!- oklocod has joined. 10:26:39 o 10:26:43 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol. 11:51:13 now that i actually read how subleq works, i gotta wonder, can't you traverse memory? 11:51:44 basically, to construct a list, you will need to encode it in a register using some weird modulo system? 11:51:57 that basically means the memory is mostly useless computationally 11:52:10 you could just as easily have just one memory cell 11:52:36 GregorR: you're the expert, perhaps you'll tell me where i went wrong 11:52:50 um you just use pointers, one per cell? 11:53:37 but aren't all commands just a list of absolute references to the memory? 11:53:53 yes. but the commands are modifiable. 11:53:54 Subleq is a simple one instruction language. Each subleq instruction has 3 operands: 11:53:54 A B C 11:53:54 which are memory addresses. Execution of one instruction A B C subtracts the value of memory in A from the content of memory in B. If value after subtraction in B less or equal to zero, then execution jumps to the address C; otherwise to the next instruction. 11:53:58 oh! 11:54:21 "The instructions themselves reside in memory as a sequence of such integers." 11:54:36 thank you, although that was so obvious i should technically kill everyone of you 11:54:43 yes. 11:55:24 i read just the beginning, i like to get confused, ask, and let others read the rest of the text for me. 11:57:39 now i kinda wanna play with that 11:57:45 Is there a good way of commenting Befunge? I'd like to have some sort of system which would let me attach comments to arbitrary sets of funge-space locations, and then when I edit the file to move things around the comments should move too. 11:58:17 as in, some kinda befunge gui? 11:58:28 or just befunge editor 11:58:31 lieek 11:59:19 I would be reasonably content with a simple editor. Either graphical or curses-style, although I guess a GUI thing would have more options for indicating the presence of comments. 12:00:08 well you could have them float around, you know, and perhaps tell you what exactly you're looking at as you're glancing through the code 12:00:22 more like a friend than an editor really. 12:00:41 i have a "lecture", see you -> 12:05:22 FungeFriend might be a good name for a Befunge IDE. 12:05:38 Or maybe it sounds too much like a fungal infection? 12:09:15 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 12:09:32 -!- oklocod has joined. 12:16:10 fungefriend sounds nice 12:16:14 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol. 12:40:39 -!- oerjan has quit ("Argh"). 12:53:03 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:50:54 ais523: 13:52:19 He be offline. 13:52:20 Oddly. 13:56:25 lost the game 14:02:21 ehird, I wonder where he is too 14:02:30 AnMaster: Doing things other than talking on IRC> 14:02:33 Just a hunch. 14:02:40 well yeah probably... 14:02:52 Sometimes people do things. :P 14:03:25 well all the time 14:03:38 Quite. 14:04:13 even if nothing else, as long as you are alive, you perform the action of existing. 14:04:33 Oh shut up. 14:05:00 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:05:13 and probably one of sit, stand, walk, crawl, lie (and so on).. 14:05:21 s/\.$// 14:07:50 oh man 14:07:52 add-art 14:07:54 what a great extension 14:07:56 it replaces ads with art 14:08:06 why didn't I think of that? 14:08:15 http://add-art.org/ 14:12:05 -!- oklocod has joined. 14:15:59 ehird, art as in famous paintings? 14:16:08 Not sure. 14:16:22 It does have it on the site, you know, but I haven't checked it out. 14:16:27 the pic on the main page seems to just replace it with the text art 14:16:40 That was an example. 14:16:45 also, rbrb. 14:16:58 rbrb? 14:17:05 really be back soon? 14:17:27 really be right back I meant 14:17:40 or maybe rather 14:21:44 i am green 14:46:49 i'm black 14:46:54 racis 14:46:54 t 14:47:11 i'm not talking about skin color 14:47:16 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol. 14:47:19 unlike you 15:07:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | !kill 1. 15:49:09 -!- boily has joined. 15:49:13 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 16:04:38 riddle of the day 16:04:50 four fish, one is green, the other is yellow, what's 2+2? 16:04:58 it's harder than you think 16:10:36 oklopol: 4 16:11:00 no, try again 16:11:17 oklopol: 5 16:11:25 no 16:11:29 oklopol: fish 16:11:35 no 16:11:41 oklopol: 2+2 16:11:44 NO 16:11:45 haha 16:11:46 got you ther 16:11:46 e 16:11:48 :( 16:11:51 oklopol: NO 16:11:55 THIS RIDDLE HAS NO ANSWER, STOP ANSWERING 16:12:07 oklopol: NO 16:12:25 i'm aiming for a boy-who-cried the wolf situation. for the next N days i'm going to give you a riddle, each more ridiculous than the next 16:12:26 but 16:12:46 oklopol: but?? 16:12:50 one of them, is actually so great, so deep, that if you actually tried to solve it, you'd absolutely love it 16:12:56 you'd go craaaaazy 16:12:59 you know 16:13:01 in a good way 16:13:02 oklopol: i'll do it 16:13:09 but no one will ever know which one it is 16:13:19 oklopol: i will ASSEMBLE A COMMITTEE TO SOLVE IT 16:13:45 because to be able to find out which one is the great one, you'd have to try and solve all of them, which is kinda stupid, because most of the time you'd just be searching for nothing. 16:13:53 committee?!? 16:13:55 oklopol: but committee 16:13:58 oh my god 16:14:02 oklopol: yeah 16:14:03 oklopol: ha 16:14:05 you have just defeated me 16:14:06 oklopol: i have defeated you 16:14:07 what now 16:14:08 ha 16:14:09 see 16:14:10 we agree 16:14:12 :D 16:14:13 so much for THAT IDEA 16:14:22 fuck it, i'm gonna get a real job 16:14:29 ;\ 16:19:25 oklopol: does anyone play the counter any more 16:21:00 ehird: i don't know, because i don't. 16:21:05 :D 16:21:08 when did you las tplay 16:21:46 not sure 16:23:57 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:24:17 oklopol: 5 years ago?????? 16:33:58 -!- GregorR has joined. 16:38:36 ehird: no, you silly gangster 16:49:27 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 16:53:30 hi ais523 16:57:40 hi ehird 17:00:23 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:00:31 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:00:34 "Unchurched" or "The Unchurched" or "unchurched people" is defined by the Barna Group as "an adult (18 or older) who has not attended a Christian church service within the past six months" excluding special services such as Easter, Christmas, weddings or funerals.Barna reports there are 75 million "unchurched people" in the United States as of 2004. 17:00:44 And me using it to mean convert lambdas into numbers! 17:01:10 anyway, I have several hundred emails to read through 17:01:16 so I'm likely to be uncommunicative for a bit 17:01:32 AnMaster: I got your /query though, I'll make sure it's fixed before the release 17:02:15 http://img.4chan.org/r9k/src/1223888838875.jpg 17:02:20 That Joe Biden sure can yield logic 17:02:45 ais523, oh and c-intercal got into portage 17:03:37 yes, I noticed 17:13:02 -!- slereah has joined. 17:13:02 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:15:18 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:15:18 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:23:22 -!- boily has quit ("leaving"). 17:24:18 -!- slereah has joined. 17:36:41 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:57:34 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:57:42 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 18:06:32 -!- slereah has joined. 18:06:32 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:18:35 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:20:11 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 18:20:11 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:26:11 -!- slereah has joined. 18:26:11 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:40:54 ais523, so you left again? 18:40:56 oh well 18:41:03 no, I'm still here 18:41:09 just busy catching up on email 18:41:23 * [ais523] is away (Gone away for now.) 18:41:25 * AnMaster shrugs 18:41:33 stupid away checker 18:41:36 ais523, also how can you get that much email? 18:41:42 AnMaster: being subscribed to three nomics 18:41:54 ais523, maybe that isn't a good thing :P 18:42:04 ais523, also, what ones? 18:42:13 Agora, B Nomic, FRC 18:42:19 I'm also in two others, but they aren't email nomics 18:43:10 ais523, I think you may be too much active what that if it takes so much of your free time 18:43:38 it doesn't, just a few hours every Monday to catch up on the weekend 18:44:02 ais523, how goes gcc-bf btw? 18:44:29 stalled 18:44:32 while I do other things 18:44:38 ah stil. 18:44:39 still* 18:44:40 I was working on C-INTERCAL a bit recently, though 18:44:44 let me push the changes 18:44:51 ais523, anything major new? 18:45:00 I fixed some of the bugs you reported 18:45:24 ais523, ah like -F? 18:45:26 also I implemented an optimisation for gerund abstention that Joris sent me months ago 18:45:31 AnMaster: not the -F one yet 18:45:40 it was mostly the build process bugs to do with not cross-compiling 18:45:57 now if you aren't cross-compiling your CC and CFLAGS last through the whole compilation 18:45:57 ais523, also I don't know if it still affects you with new build system, but some gentoo developer made a patch to ensure make -j2 and higher works 18:45:59 although not at runtime 18:46:13 AnMaster: the new build system works fine with -j2 18:46:17 http://rafb.net/p/jYiUEc56.html 18:46:20 was the patch anyway 18:47:04 ah ok, just the old lex/yacc dependencies patch 18:47:11 Automake does that automatically, so I didn't have to think about it 18:47:16 ais523, wasn't in the last release anyway 18:47:22 no, it wasn't 18:47:31 it fixed itself incidentally in trunk, though 18:47:36 yeah 18:48:00 I learnt about the lex/yacc dependencies trick from the Automake doc 18:48:08 hm? 18:48:35 ok 18:48:40 how to generate the .c and .h in a way that's safe in a parallel make 18:48:48 given that lex and yacc output at the wrong filename 18:49:00 well it seems to be a command line parameter 18:49:02 to do so 18:49:20 AnMaster: ah, that doesn't work portably 18:49:23 so they did half the fix 18:49:36 ais523, obviously what was needed for gentoo toolchain 18:49:39 but the other half would work on Gentoo, presumably, who knows their own lex/yacc versions 18:49:46 but not on SunOS, for instance 18:49:53 ais523, yeah it is the gnu toolchain 18:50:01 so bison and flex 18:50:47 Pulling from "http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/"... 18:50:47 No remote changes to pull in! 18:50:53 * AnMaster waits for ais523 to push 18:50:58 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:51:18 I've pushed now 18:53:17 ais523, my computer with the collection of compilers is currently off. 18:53:22 since it runs 32-bit arch 18:53:28 ah, ok 18:53:32 * AnMaster test builds on his amd64 anyway 18:53:33 anyway, it's only half fixed 18:53:40 ais523, which one? 18:53:48 it should build fine 18:53:55 which one is only half-fixed? 18:53:55 but I think it still defaults to using gcc at runtime 18:53:56 -!- ab5tract has joined. 18:54:12 ah ok 18:54:19 ais523, that would be easy 18:54:22 something like: 18:54:24 anyway, I fixed the ar thing too 18:54:31 -DCC="$(CC)" 18:54:36 in AM_CFLAGS 18:54:38 or whatever it is 18:54:40 CPPFLAGS 18:54:42 yes 18:54:42 probably 18:54:46 except for stringising 18:54:48 which is a pain 18:54:54 ais523, ok 18:54:55 a sec 18:54:58 what if there are backslashes or double quotes in the compiler name? 18:55:01 -DCC="\"$(CC)\"" 18:55:02 there? 18:55:12 what if there are backslashes or double quotes in the compiler name? 18:55:14 ais523, ah , what about using the # operator then? 18:55:15 such as 18:55:22 yes, I was planning to do it using # 18:55:27 it's easy but not trivial 18:55:36 #define REALCC #CC 18:55:38 I think? 18:56:00 doesn't work 18:56:03 that defines it to #CC 18:56:05 *"CC" 18:56:10 ah a space? 18:56:12 or 18:56:15 but there is a trick to make it work, I just have to look it up 18:56:19 ais523, how is it done then? 18:56:19 it involves using more than one macro 18:56:23 ah 18:56:24 and passing things round as arguments 18:56:33 right 18:56:34 either that, or I could just use sed 18:56:39 heh 18:56:49 ais523, does that exist on all platforms you support? 18:57:05 ais523, also do you support MSVC? Considering you seem to support everything else 18:57:18 I haven't tested on MSVC yet 18:57:27 it doesn't interact well with a POSIX build process 18:57:30 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 18:57:31 but the computers at Uni have it 18:57:33 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:57:37 so I may make a batch file to use it correctly 18:57:46 the files themself should compile with MSVC just fine 18:59:15 * ais523 reboots their computer 18:59:18 I'll be back soon, though 19:04:08 ais523, ok 19:04:19 one thing: msvc would need a project file I think? 19:04:22 back 19:04:25 for visual studio crap 19:04:27 or? 19:04:32 not if you just used cl 19:04:36 to compile the files command-line style 19:04:36 hm 19:04:40 I generally use cl rather than the IDE 19:04:47 even when working on a visual-studio-only prokect 19:04:54 because I like the command line 19:05:01 oh and I know cfunge won't compile with that. Since it is C99 19:05:19 cygwin does apparently work if you try hard enough 19:05:27 I wouldn't be surprised 19:05:28 minus some extensions 19:05:34 it's just gcc with a different backend, after all 19:05:35 but I can't support it 19:05:54 ais523, well iirc some defines or such were missing 19:06:03 that I relied on for checking that a feature existed 19:06:20 that's generally a bad idea, autoconf is better at detecting features than looking for defines 19:06:30 I mean POSIX says a certain header should define a certain define with a certain value if a feature is supported 19:06:33 then I trust it 19:06:37 it is the standard 19:06:51 there might be something that isn't POSIX 19:06:54 but supports the feature anyway 19:07:08 if implementations support those features but don't define the defines then any user of that system should report a bug 19:07:29 ais523: i once attempted a flex lexxer for bf -> x86 asm (nasm syntax). it might still be around if you're interested. 19:07:30 no yacc involved though 19:07:34 _POSIX_MAPPED_FILES 19:07:44 with a value larger than 0 19:07:46 ais523, ^ 19:07:54 to indicate support for mmap() munmap() 19:07:55 ENKI-][: BF is one of the few languages simple enough that you can compile it with just lex 19:08:05 but given that BF lexers are so simple, you don't need lex really 19:08:06 lol 19:08:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:08:19 i've written esolangs that compiled with just lex 19:08:20 hi oerjan 19:08:29 MF - _POSIX_MAPPED_FILES - _SC_MAPPED_FILES 19:08:29 Shared memory is supported. The include file is present. The following functions are present: mmap(), msync(), mun- 19:08:29 map(). 19:08:32 ais523, ^ 19:08:34 but, i've written esolangs that used lex as an interpreter too 19:08:35 :P 19:08:39 and hi oerjan 19:08:44 the hard part is looping 19:08:49 ENKI-][, are you new here? 19:08:53 or just a new nick? 19:09:02 i haven't spoken in here much before 19:09:07 ah 19:09:08 hemskt mycket hej 19:09:27 ENKI-][: BF is one of the few languages simple enough that you can compile it with just lex 19:09:27 but given that BF lexers are so simple, you don't need lex really 19:09:28 um 19:09:34 I just wrote a recursive parser 19:09:36 when I did it 19:09:39 mm 19:09:56 using even flex seemed like overkill 19:09:59 oerjan, hah 19:10:04 i tend to just combine lex with copious flags and ignore yacc 19:10:16 if you do that, even more complex languages are doable 19:10:22 ENKI-][, seems like overkill, when all you need is a switch case really 19:10:27 * ais523 downloads a 4D flight simulator 19:10:30 * oerjan is teh retro 19:10:33 ais523, 4D? 19:10:35 you mean 19:10:39 not static? 19:10:40 though i'd actually quite like a better lexer 19:10:42 yep 19:10:45 I mean four-dimensional 19:10:50 ais523, then that includes all of them 19:10:58 AnMaster: meh. i prefer not to have to tokenize 100% 19:11:01 ais523, unless you hit the pause feature 19:11:07 AnMaster: four space dimensions 19:11:15 ENKI-][, err, you hardly need that for bf 19:11:17 AnMaster: but i think i rewrote that bf compiler in pure c first 19:11:28 ENKI-][, I build the tree, reading one symbol at a time 19:11:34 well I mmap() it all 19:11:36 AnMaster: i've written other stuff with flex compilers though. 19:11:40 then use that to read from 19:11:53 ais523, such a sim exists? 19:11:57 ENKI-][, well just overkill for bf 19:12:01 AnMaster: yes 19:12:05 ais523, link? 19:12:07 although I haven't used it yet 19:12:14 I'm reading the docs atm 19:12:18 ais523, link? 19:12:19 and the link is apt-get adanaxisgpl 19:12:31 which isn't particularly useful to someone not on Debian or a derivative 19:12:34 ais523, indeed 19:12:37 which I'm not 19:12:39 i also wrote the implementation of a network protocol as a flex lexxer, hooking into a kind of flattened list-of-lists 19:12:43 ais523, can't you query package manager for url? 19:12:45 should be possible to make an infinite-dimensional one. might be hard to find anything else in it though... 19:12:48 on gentoo that is dead easy 19:12:50 same on arch 19:12:53 but that was megas buggy 19:13:01 * ais523 tries 19:13:06 http://www.mushware.com/ 19:13:18 N.B. I haven't visited that site 19:13:26 but it's recorded as the homepage in the package 19:13:48 ais523, seems like there is a commercial one too 19:13:55 heh 19:14:05 for $18.95 19:14:59 ais523, also that says space shooter, not flight sim 19:15:02 very very different 19:15:03 even if nothing else, as long as you are alive, you perform the action of existing. 19:15:10 a flight sim most likely lack usable guns 19:15:17 ah, yes 19:15:23 misread it 19:15:23 since it simulates *flight* in *air* 19:15:29 not space shooting 19:15:33 a space shooter is a flight sim too, though, just with weapons 19:15:40 ais523, and in space 19:15:44 so no areodymaics 19:15:45 i think there are philosophical problems with considering existence an action or property 19:15:49 spelling.... 19:16:06 -!- ab5tract has quit. 19:16:07 oerjan, oh? 19:16:23 there was a flawed proof of God based on it, i think 19:16:43 ais523, a flight sim should have accurate aerodynamics. Many aircraft fighter games I have seen fail totally at that 19:16:56 ais523, while a flight sim does it properly 19:16:56 basically, God is by definition perfect, so has every positive property, including existence, QED. 19:17:15 oerjan, that doesn't work for other reasons 19:17:19 i don't exist. 19:17:26 EXTERNISM FTW 19:17:36 oerjan: that's flawed even without the flaw you mentioned 19:17:36 ? 19:17:37 :-) 19:17:49 externism is the opposite of nihilism 19:17:49 define X to be an odd perfect number that exists. 19:17:52 er 19:17:56 By definition, X exists 19:17:57 it's the opposite of solipism rather 19:17:59 so there is an odd perfect number 19:18:10 everything exists but the self 19:18:14 ais523: um that _was_ the flaw i mentioned 19:18:29 oerjan: ah, I thought you were talking about the flaw being that existence wasn't a property 19:18:39 ais523: yes 19:19:36 I think the flaw is that all you've proved is that if God exists, God exists 19:19:39 which is a tautology 19:19:46 ais523, in fact I can't find any gpl download for that project 19:19:52 the argument you give does not contradict the possibility that God does not exist 19:19:56 AnMaster: strange 19:20:06 you'd think they'd advertise their GPL download too, seeing as it exists 19:20:10 or maybe they wouldn't in the hope you'd pay 19:20:27 ais523, can't find it anyway, maybe they changed license 19:20:36 also it seems it is a one man company, says so on front page 19:20:39 so him it seems 19:20:48 ais523: well obviously there are several ways of looking at it, but some philosophers have considered that the flaw in the argument is considering existence a property 19:21:15 thomas aquinas has a similar 'proof' that was a bit better, but that will probably end up with something very un-godlike 19:21:21 it's something like 19:21:54 god is the best. if there's something better, it's not god. when you reach the end, it's god. the universe is finite, so there must be something that's best. 19:22:10 yeah that makes so much sense 19:22:24 but does that mean that if i value chocolate cakes over everything in the universe, the best chocolate cake i've ever had is god? 19:22:28 ais523, hm 19:22:29 http://www.mushware.com/viewtopic.php?p=352 19:22:51 * ENKI-][ watches lain 19:22:52 ah 19:22:53 "For Linux, a GPL version of this game is available, which lacks the commercially-sourced graphical and audio content present in the non-GPL version. Use the Change Listing box above and select Linux/GPL only to view it. 19:22:54 " 19:23:22 ais523, tell me if it is worth it 19:23:31 I haven't tried it yet 19:23:34 probably won't today 19:23:38 but I'll let you know later if you like 19:23:51 http://www.mushware.com/album_showpage.php?pic_id=8 19:23:54 screenshots look cool 19:48:46 -!- atrapado has joined. 19:48:57 -!- ab5tract has joined. 19:55:22 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:07:34 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:08:55 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 20:19:27 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:07:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | looks cool, but light on th CPU. 21:11:24 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 21:20:32 -!- olsner has joined. 22:05:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:06:48 the newbies discovered the undergrad mailing list :( 22:06:55 ah, that sounds bad 22:06:58 is it moderated? 22:07:02 not at all 22:07:44 so far there's been random chit-chat, "who are you and why are you sending me email, I don't know you", people signing up to myspace, and BBC gardening newsletters 22:07:57 oh dear... 22:08:17 and of course the all-time favourite, "STOP SPAMMING THE MAILING LIST!" sent to the entire mailing list. 22:08:20 this is as bad as the day about 8 people posted SWORDFISH to what is normally a low-traffic mailing list 22:30:58 * GregorR enjoys his oh-so-exclusive graduate mailing list :P 22:32:49 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 23:16:37 that's sort of like the time that chinese and korean spammers and sourceforge ad partners discovered the development group for a project with only 3 members on google groups, and decided to try to outdo each other, three years after the project disbanded 23:17:17 then i had to look up the password and close the group 23:34:09 -!- ehird has changed nick to Barack_Obama. 23:34:23 -!- Barack_Obama has changed nick to ehird. 23:53:06 ouch 23:53:08 and night 2008-10-14: 01:27:47 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 01:54:02 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:02:55 -!- ab5tract has quit. 03:07:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | oh no. 03:23:53 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 03:31:28 -!- xor_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:06:45 -!- ab5tract has joined. 04:27:59 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 04:39:49 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:40:55 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:57:16 Devise an algorithm to sort an array of numbers in place (that is, using O(1) additional space). 04:57:16 Bonus: How would you change this algorithm if you wanted to destroy all animal life? All life? 04:59:00 huh? 04:59:09 there's lots of in-place sorting algorithms 05:00:07 What, are you people impervious to humor? 05:01:05 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:01:13 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:01:13 apparently 05:01:29 i dont' get it 05:02:09 The second line is the joke X_X 05:05:09 ... 05:06:23 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:08:57 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has quit. 05:09:10 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has joined. 05:58:53 GregorR: well i found bsmntbombdood much funnier than your joke :D 05:59:53 also, i can only think of ways to sort in O(1) space in O(n) time 06:01:11 clever guy 06:02:20 clever guy? 06:04:04 i've only heard something vague about one being able to get rid of the recursion stack for quicksort 06:04:25 which i once made an attempt at, but resulted in O(n lg lg n) afaik 06:05:07 The simplest answer is bubble sort, but THAT'S NOT THE BLOODY JOKE 06:05:08 *O(lg lg n) space actually 06:05:31 GregorR: that's O(n) 06:05:42 That's O(1) /additional/ space. 06:05:44 i was thinking O(n lg n) time, O(1) space 06:05:51 O(n) time 06:05:54 silly boy 06:05:57 That's O(n^2) time. 06:06:02 rrright :D 06:06:04 of course it is 06:06:09 I never said to use better than O(n^2) time though. 06:06:23 You people are joke murderers. 06:06:26 Do you know that? 06:06:28 JOKE MURDERERS. 06:06:29 :D 06:06:35 hey i lolled at your joke 06:06:56 it's just i want to know if you can do O(1) additional space in O(n lg n) time 06:07:26 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 06:10:01 now sorting an array of numbers in O(-1) space, that's a challenge 06:10:01 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:10:08 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 06:11:19 -!- ab5tract has quit. 06:11:39 you can't have o(n) time 06:11:50 almost forgot, the lecture on O(-2^n) space O(-n) time algorithms starts in 5 minutes 06:12:04 first of all i meant O(n^2), i just wasn't thinking 06:12:26 and you can get O(n) in some cases 06:13:14 if you're sorting objects in a finite set, you can lift the size of the set into the constant multiplier, and get O(n) 06:13:37 all these hole sorts are based on this 06:13:47 you know, you have a hole and you stick your finger in it 06:13:51 and you get O(n) 06:13:53 see you around -> 06:18:58 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:22:39 You're always sorting in a finite set. 06:22:48 Good moaning 06:22:53 Although admittedly bucket-sorting integers into 2^64 is a bit prohibitive. 06:23:02 Although admittedly bucket-sorting integers into 2^64 buckets is a bit prohibitive. 06:24:02 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 06:24:13 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 06:26:08 -!- slereah has joined. 06:26:08 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:27:52 -!- oklocod has joined. 06:28:02 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:29:09 hm... heap sort might be without extra space and still O(n lg n) isn't it? 06:29:23 (well, O(1) extra) 06:29:30 GregorR: computers are turing complete, and 0..2^64-1 is an infinite set 06:29:57 By what stretch of the imagination is 0..2^64-1 an infinite set? 06:30:05 oerjan: that's true 06:30:15 GregorR: it's reeeeeally big 06:30:19 :P 06:30:36 my point is you have to choose your abstractions 06:31:15 * oerjan sometimes has envisioned that the consistency of infinite maths is an illusion, and maybe it breaks down at some _big_ number 06:31:58 but maybe so big that we can never hit it with any proof that fits in our universe 06:32:02 oerjan: how big? 06:32:09 oh 06:32:13 well that's quite big 06:32:32 of course it could be much smaller, we just haven't found it yet 06:32:55 you mean, all maths break down at that number? 06:32:59 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:33:07 also 06:33:19 well maybe not all simultaneously, but that's when things start to break 06:33:29 i may sound a bit more stupid than i am, as i have like a 2 minute lag 06:33:46 so i'm often asking questions loooong after they've already been answered 06:33:56 oerjan: at least an hour long lag 06:34:03 CTCP PING reply from oklocod: -6.-79 seconds 06:34:09 that looks ... serious 06:34:12 :D 06:34:28 -6*10^-79? 06:34:31 or what does that mean 06:35:15 perhaps your PING reply is broken 06:35:39 iirc it should respond with the number i sent, or something 06:36:03 -> ctcp[oklocod] PING 1223962424 679900 06:36:34 but if you don't, obviously the time calculations will be off 06:37:32 and the second - is probably irssi not being prepared to handle negative numbers in the display 06:38:43 and using a / and % that rounds in the wrong direction for this purpose 06:39:57 although it's _still_ strange that it gets numbers that low - if you respond with garbage you'd think irssi would end up with something huge? 06:40:32 lemme try again 06:41:07 um this time i got no response 06:41:45 * oerjan guesses oklocod really is lagged now 06:42:08 -!- oklopol has joined. 06:42:35 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:42:46 -!- oklopol has joined. 06:44:14 yes i was quite lagged 06:44:21 after which my internet faded away 06:45:35 and is this lecture about databases, the course is about distributed computation 06:48:10 ok i get PING replies again now, but still strangely small negative numbers 06:48:39 theory: maybe you reply with your own clocktime, which is slow? 06:49:22 oerjan: That sounds likely, because he replied to fungot's "PING fungot" with a clocktime. 06:49:23 fizzie: that's usually because almost all implementations of the high-level s-expression manipulation commands ( slurpage, barfage, &c. 06:49:54 stop mocking me ! 06:50:01 i do what i can 06:50:15 oklopol: It's not you we're mocking, it's your WORLD'S MOST FAMOUS AND BESTEST IRC client we're mocking. 06:52:40 also your clock setting 06:52:43 oh you think it's the bestest too? 06:52:51 that's nice :) 06:52:56 So I've heard. From you, mostly. 06:53:01 :D 06:53:08 * oerjan refuses to believe nvg's automatically updated clocks are wrong 06:53:23 well tbh this is a very sucky client, except for the fact it looks pretty without me having to invert the colors manually 06:53:54 -!- oklocod has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 06:55:14 * oerjan inverted his colors by downloading a theme from the irssi website 06:56:29 irssi is another client that has white text on black by default 06:56:37 yes, so i inverted it 06:56:41 but, it's a sucky client otherwise 06:56:42 * pikhq loves white on black 06:56:49 * pikhq also loves irssi 06:56:57 well, my irssi was broken, and no one knew how to fix it 06:57:08 well it's internal documentation sucks, is what i find 06:57:12 *its 06:57:13 couldn't get any kind of highlighting to show 06:57:25 irssi, a sucky client? What kind of person clames that? 06:57:39 pikhq: of course, no sane person would use black on white 06:57:52 Not on a terminal. 06:57:55 oklopol: GOOD THAT I AM MAD THEN 06:58:16 pikhq: a client that doesn't work is sucky. 06:58:24 oerjan: EVIL! 06:58:36 i couldn't get the bar that tells me which channels have some kinda highlights to show 06:58:40 oklopol: What doesn't work about irssi, aside from your borken irssi configuration? 06:59:08 I used a black-on-white terminal (with matching irssi, mutt, tin color schemes) for a year or two. Then I went back to white-on-black. 06:59:11 ... You couldn't get irssi's default configuration to work? 07:17:44 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 07:18:25 -!- oklocod has joined. 07:19:59 nice, i'm back 07:20:27 pikhq: one reason for not liking irssi was it simply didn't work, it didn't show the bar where you see which channels have had activity 07:20:40 Which is its default behavior. 07:20:52 okay, well i guess i should've asked you then. 07:20:55 Which means your irssi setup is 100% broken. 07:20:57 i'm pretty sure i asked here 07:21:02 Hrm. 07:21:26 Anyways. 07:21:30 but 07:21:38 the other reason 07:21:54 with the textual view 07:22:12 how does it work if you have more than ten channels open? 07:22:16 i usually have ~40 07:23:51 q = 11, w = 12, ... 07:24:03 Not sure about what happens when you've got more than 20, though. 07:24:13 Think you have to do /window number 07:24:20 i don't think i ever have less than 20 open 07:24:55 /window sounds a bit awkward, but at least there is a solution 07:24:56 /win number works, too... 07:24:59 i didn't know there was. 07:25:20 but, i never actually researched the subject, it's easier just to use the client that works the best without configuring. 07:25:40 *shrug* 07:25:56 i won't be satisfied with a client anyway, unless i made it myself, so i don't have much incentive to fix things 07:26:26 In theory, one could make irssi such that it's satisfactory to you. 07:26:33 It is, after all, Perl customizable. 07:26:55 yes, you can do that for nnscript as well 07:27:32 but will i actually do that when i could just start over and get a system just as good. 07:28:10 Fair 'nough. 07:29:02 also irssi has the minor defect i would have to learn to do the things command-wise i'm used to doing with the mouse 07:29:09 stuff like ctcp 07:29:25 (and by that i mean sending stuff to others) 07:30:48 Mouse, shmouse. 07:32:15 i hate mouses 07:32:18 but they're useful 07:32:51 i'm using vista after all 07:33:30 well, my father uses windows faster without a mouse, i'm just used to it 07:33:56 i would like a touchscreen you can touch in multiple places at once 07:35:24 and now i wanna write an irc client 07:35:30 perhaps i should. 07:35:35 scratch that 07:35:41 fizzie: could you add a gui to fungot? 07:35:43 oklocod: why'd you kill it? 07:36:22 so i could use it as my client 07:36:26 it would be awesome 07:41:20 hmm... 07:41:53 perhaps i could encode text into graph representations, and make a client with graph-graphics! :o 07:42:13 oh my god, i could have 1. graphs 2. glyphs only i am able to read 3. pure 4. awesomeness 07:44:23 undirected graph of course :P 07:45:15 will you join my exzuuuuuuuberance? 07:45:40 i think i need a break :) 07:45:40 -> 07:52:15 oklocod, you could probably make an ncurses based GUI using NCRS 07:52:16 not sure 07:53:21 that sounds nice enough 07:53:36 but really i don't need the g 07:53:45 i just wanna irc through fungot 07:53:46 oklocod: that is the part where the compiler is " poorly designed" if continuations are not unmodular in the same sense 07:54:08 except right now all i can think about it making a graph-based alphabet. 07:54:12 oklocod, well since it use SOCK you still have blocking STDIO I that you could use 07:54:42 you need non-blocking stdio I suspect 07:54:58 hey don't talk to me this is fizzie's responsibility, i'd just be a user! :) 07:55:10 hah 07:55:15 (graaaaaaaphs) 07:55:20 (moooooore graaaaaaaaph) 07:55:23 *s 07:55:50 > (moooooore graaaaaaaaphs) 07:55:50 reference to undefined identifier: moooooore 07:56:36 it's an elongation of "more" 07:56:46 don't you have elongation support? 07:56:48 > (more graphs) 07:56:48 reference to undefined identifier: more 07:57:01 oklocod, seems it doesn't 07:57:18 oh you were pipelining it to a non-human interpreter 07:57:21 that's just silly :) 07:57:25 oklocod, mzscheme to be exact 07:58:08 i hate this course 07:58:09 oklocod, it looked like scheme to me 07:58:11 ;P 07:58:12 there's nothing to read 07:58:39 ouhc 07:58:41 ouch* 07:58:47 who wants to listen to lectures when you could just read a few hundred pages 07:58:57 and get tons more informatino 07:59:00 *information 07:59:29 hah 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:21 well, the lecturer did mention a 1200 page book that *did not fully cover this course* 08:01:14 hmm 08:01:22 seems i gotta get back home -> 08:03:43 ok, cya 08:16:31 -!- oklopol has joined. 08:17:59 any lisp ought to have elongation support 08:18:08 (caaaaaaaaaaaaar wreck) 08:18:09 hmm 08:18:13 true 08:18:44 well the spec only requires it four deep 08:18:57 rrrright? 08:19:01 i said "ought to" 08:19:09 o. 08:19:45 -!- oklocod has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 08:21:51 name ideas for a graph-based irc client? 08:23:02 orc would be quite standard for me, but that's kinda boring 08:24:04 graphirc would look a bit like a mistyping of graphic, perhaps, but that's a bit boring too 08:30:45 how many distinct graphs can you make with n nodes? 08:32:36 or is it np-complete to calculate that? 08:33:42 2^(n over 2) undirected graphs, I think. Since that's the number of node-pairs, and each pair can either have an edge or not. 08:34:01 distinct up to form 08:35:56 Besides its practical importance, the graph isomorphism problem is a curiosity in computational complexity theory as it is one of a very small number of problems belonging to NP neither known to be solvable in polynomial time nor NP-complete. 08:36:01 *" " 08:36:10 That's not the same problem, though. 08:36:30 That's "determine whether two classes are isomorphic", not "how many isomorphism classes there are in graphs with n vertices". 08:36:32 you see i'm building something like morse code, i have one main strand, where i need to hang these small graphies on the nodes 08:36:36 It doesn't sound very easy, though. 08:37:13 s/classes/graphs/ there. 08:37:30 all the graphies need to be distinct (although they may be rooted, which matters of course) 08:38:39 i can enumerate the sets manually for long enough to get a character for every ascii chart entry, i'm just interested in theory 08:39:33 Heh, the R "graph.isomorphism" package: "graph.isoclass returns the isomorphism class of a graph, a non-negative integer number. Graphs (with the same number of vertices) having the same isomorphism class are isomorphic and isomorphic graphs always have the same isomorphism class. Currently it can handle only graphs with 3 or 4 vertices." 08:39:47 If it were trivial, I would think they'd handle graphs with over 4 vertices. 08:39:58 :D 08:40:35 a new kind of structure seems to emerge every time i add a new node 08:40:51 which immediately suggests there's no simple way to calculate the number of them 08:41:28 Actually I think we manually enumerated the isomorphism classes for small graphs during the graph theory course, when thinking about some assignment. 08:42:05 yes, but this is not the exact same problem, because they may be rooted; except i now realize they *are* exactly the same problem. 08:42:29 you just need to take the graphs, and root them from every possible angle 08:42:32 err 08:42:36 no... it's not that simple 08:42:53 i don't think it's the same problem 08:43:08 I don't think it is either. 08:44:02 for instance the graph abcda can be rooted in four different ways, all of which are equal, while in abcad three of the rootings are distinct 08:44:13 if you know eodermdrome syntax, which you probably don't 08:44:30 but you may be able to guess how it works 08:44:53 "In some sense, graph isomorphism is easy in practice except for a set of pathologically difficult graphs that seem to cause all the problems. So, unlike knot theory, there have never been any significant pairs of graphs for which isomorphism was unresolved." 08:45:36 (from MathWorld) 08:45:51 (the first quote was Wikipedia) 08:45:52 A000088, Number of graphs on n unlabeled nodes. 08:46:06 1, 1, 2, 4, 11, 34, 156, ... 08:46:08 darn i was trying to get to that 08:46:11 There are some formulas. 08:46:39 8 is unknown? 08:46:42 or you just cut it 08:46:46 I just cut it. 08:46:54 ..., , 1044, 12346, 274668, 12005168, 1018997864, 165091172592, 50502031367952, 29054155657235488, 31426485969804308768, 64001015704527557894928, 245935864153532932683719776, 1787577725145611700547878190848, 24637809253125004524383007491432768 08:47:03 Turns out it's not actually that difficult to compute. 08:47:03 oh, nice 08:47:12 yay 08:47:32 cool, now tell me *how* to compute it, so i can generalize it for rooted graphs... 08:47:35 And in fact we _did_ compute it; it was the "generative functions" class, not the graph theory one, and we manually enumerated them because we wanted to check whether our solution was correct. 08:47:49 i see 08:47:55 Or at least we wrote a generative function for it. I'm not sure if we actually figured out the coefficients. 08:48:15 I can check if I can find my notes. It might've been something else than just unlabeled graphs. 08:48:33 i don't know anything about generative functions, i've heard of generating functions, but i'm not sure what they are either. 08:49:39 Generating function might be the correct english term. 08:49:56 Yes, seems so. 08:50:18 It's just a function whose power series representation has coefficients that correspond to some interesting sequence. 08:50:37 that's sort of strange. i would have thought that since testing isomorphism is hard, that would mess up the count too... 08:51:05 The Generatingfunctionology book is relatively nice; even the name is funky. 08:51:11 We used that as a course book, I think. 08:51:24 you think? :P 08:52:12 I didn't read it much, it was sort-of background material. 08:52:32 Why can't I find my homework solutions? 08:54:49 http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A032259 has a really weird description 08:55:50 what don't you know what a dyslexic windmills :D 08:55:55 *windmill is 08:57:45 Okay, seems like our "number of graphs" homework problem was actually restricted to some kind of trees. 08:58:08 icic 08:58:24 oklopol: http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A126100 08:58:27 It was Autumn 2006, I've forgotten most of it, I just remember counting graphs at some point. 08:58:37 (connected though) 08:58:52 connected is actually what i want 08:59:11 you know, i'm making a writing system you know 08:59:13 you know 08:59:51 so that's perfect 08:59:59 yay 09:00:15 4 has just 11 distinct rooted garphs 8| 09:00:34 oh 09:00:40 that one seems to use generating functions 09:00:47 right, i'm not counting the root; i only found 9 of the 11 sofar 09:01:32 Yes, it's computed from combining the generating functions of A000666 (sequence of the beast!) and A000088. 09:02:07 See, that's how useful they are; you just need to multiply some known functions and you get an otherwise-not-quite-as-simple-to-compute sequence out of it. 09:03:00 i know they are useful, and i know what they are; i just don't know anything about them :) 09:03:37 okay i think i have all eleven distinct rooted graphs on 4 nodes 09:04:04 Next find the 58 5-vertex graphs and the 407 6-vertex graphs. 09:05:20 And also the 72489 6-vertex graphs; then you probably have a graph for each currently defined Unicode symbol. 09:05:39 . is the root, standard eodermdrome syntax: .a.b.c, .ab.c, .ab.cb, .aba.c, .abac, .ab.acb, .ab.ac, .abca, .abc, .ab.cabc, .abc. 09:06:00 i love eodermdrome 09:06:35 ais523: i love it! now check those 09:07:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | sounds good. 09:07:12 basically, ".abc" are the four nodes, adjacent letters mean there's an arc 09:07:23 so .a.b.c is the comb 09:07:27 .abc is the line 09:07:28 Okay, I did guess the syntax mostly correctly. 09:07:33 .abc. is the cycle 09:07:38 others are the more complicated cases 09:07:59 The "comb" is actually called "claw". 09:08:03 oh 09:08:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claw_(graph_theory) 09:08:06 i'll remember that 09:08:08 K_1,3 it is. 09:09:01 oh, i see 09:09:17 well i mean the general case, just happened to have 4 nodes 09:09:40 .a.b.c.d..., where the last dots are an ellipsis 09:11:02 perhaps i could just enumerate the n^2 possibilities, and try to remove equals 09:11:26 could prolly get up to six vertex graphs, and as you pointed out, that's definitely enough 09:11:26 Of course the claw is not rooted, so .abac is also a claw. 09:11:39 true, true 09:11:47 * oklopol enumerates 09:12:19 And it's not n^2 possibilities. 09:12:38 hmm 09:12:39 2^n 09:12:42 err 09:12:47 2^(n over 2) 09:12:50 just like you said 09:12:55 yes yes yes i know this 09:13:09 it's just all these numbers are so over whelming 09:13:20 *overwhelming 09:13:31 they're (so over whelming) 09:14:06 o=n, w=2, h=e=l=m=i=n=g=1 09:14:10 hihi 09:14:16 *, s=1 09:28:46 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:37:05 hmm 09:37:29 there's actually no way the brute force algorithm will be able to enumerate all the 72 thousand distinct graphs 09:37:59 if i brute force by simply trying out all switchings of edges that is 09:38:08 oklopol, hm what about using quantum stuff for that? 09:38:08 because it's 68 billion possibilities :P 09:38:23 AnMaster: you mean like search? 09:38:42 oklopol, well I don't really understand quantum computer 09:38:57 i could use all kinds of things, i just can't wrap my head around how to actually do any of this efficiently. 09:39:14 perhaps i would get some perspective if i knew even a relatively fast way the check the equality of two graphs 09:39:16 but isn't it good at stuff like search huge number of combinations 09:39:18 and such? 09:39:22 err yes 09:39:44 quantum basically means you're doing nondeterministic search that always guesses rigt 09:39:46 *right 09:39:47 well maybe could be useful for checking all graphs then? 09:40:19 well yes, always finding the solution on the first attempt does help you find lots of things 09:40:42 since it apparently is so for primes 09:40:43 oklopol, as far as I understood it, not always, but "most of the time"? 09:41:27 yes, anyway, i doubt quantum algorithms, when translated to computers, are anything but searching with a heuristic 09:45:31 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:45:31 -!- AnMaster has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:46:03 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has joined. 09:46:03 -!- AnMaster has joined. 09:46:49 ais523: do you have an algorithm for eodermdomizing a graph? 09:47:13 even a bad one would suffice 09:53:26 -!- moozilla has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:58:49 If it's a connected graph, can't you just do a simple depth-first-search (flagging nodes as visited to avoid loops)? Then you'd just output the the node label when entering a node, and the parent when coming back. 10:02:08 oh right 10:02:14 lol yeah that's trivial 10:02:59 thanks, for some reason i was wanted to start with "", and start filling it node by node by looking for adjacent neighbors of its 10:03:33 *neighbors of the node 10:03:46 i doubt a string contains many of its own neighbors. 10:04:46 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:10:21 hehe, takes about a minute to get the 58 solutions, assuming the graph equality even works :P 10:13:39 oklopol, is that a slow or fast in this context? 10:14:05 -!- moozilla has quit (Connection timed out). 10:14:14 AnMaster: well i'm aiming for that 72 thousand 10:14:32 and the runtime growth is exponential 10:14:44 oklopol, so too slow in other words? 10:15:27 well in other *worlds* it wouldn't be too slow 10:15:34 words i don't know anything about 10:15:57 worlds or words? 10:16:07 oh wait 10:16:11 that's the joke 10:16:14 bah 10:16:17 oklopol, yeah 10:16:28 but is it too slow for the intended usage? 10:17:43 http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/nauty/ is a well-known graph automorphism/isomorphism thingie. I haven't self used it, but one of the graph theory programming project people did. 10:17:48 hm isn't * for dereferencing pointers and * for multiplication ambiguous in C? At least in some contexts? 10:17:52 say int *foo; 10:17:54 then 10:18:03 int bar = 2 * foo; 10:18:12 that multiplies pointer or? 10:18:17 It's a multiplication. 10:18:25 what about 10:18:30 int **foo; 10:18:31 Because "2 " is not legal syntax. 10:18:37 int bar = 2 ** foo; 10:18:38 hm 10:18:41 fizzie, ah true 10:18:46 but the second example? 10:18:54 wait 10:18:56 same for that 10:18:58 oh well 10:18:59 That is "2 multiply (pointer-dereference foo)" because, again, it's the only way to make sense out of it. 10:19:07 fizzie: i can't use other people's programs 10:19:16 fizzie, so it is never ambiguous? 10:19:18 oklopol: Oh, you had that sort of a bug. 10:19:27 when i'm asking for help, i'm asking for an algorithm 10:19:28 yes 10:19:38 or rather, a hint 10:19:50 oklopol: Well, see the referenced paper, then: http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/nauty/PGI/ 10:19:58 oklopol, "not invented here syndrome"? 10:20:05 fizzie: i'll try to get mine to work first :) 10:20:15 AnMaster: yes, quite a bad case o that 10:20:27 although i never understood the name 10:20:49 huh? How is it hard to understand? 10:21:02 "we can't use it, because it wasn't invented here" 10:21:04 basically 10:21:19 oklopol, remember to avoid standard library functions too 10:21:22 ;P 10:21:53 well i never figured what sentence it's part of 10:21:59 but yeah i guess it fits that sentence. 10:23:13 oklopol, well "wasn't" != "not", but something similar to that sentence I guess 10:24:10 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:25:26 AnMaster: i consider standard library functions part of the language 10:25:34 hm wikipedia says it is also abbreviated (sp?) as NIH 10:25:46 I'm pretty sure I have seen a libnih recently 10:26:00 also, i never use standard library functions if i feel they're too complex for me to code myself. 10:26:16 oklopol, err that made no sense :P 10:26:22 code reuse is a good thing 10:27:17 oh yes it exists: https://launchpad.net/libnih 10:27:19 huh 10:30:29 i don't see anything good in code reuse 10:30:35 not anything bad either 10:32:38 oklopol, if 10 different applications use the same library, and the same function from that library, to do something, then that means just one function doing that thing, and just one place to fix bugs in 10:33:13 for example, what if every program implemented it's own sorting algorithm? Instead of using standard library ones 10:33:21 even libc got it 10:33:23 qsort() 10:33:40 I'm not sure you can manage to convince oklopol that there's anything inherently good about code reuse. 10:34:04 I mean, it's not like he's doing software development here. 10:35:37 fizzie, hehe 10:37:28 AnMaster: if every program implemented its own sorting algorithm, i guess making all programs that need sorting would take a few seconds more to code 10:37:45 but, i do reuse my own code. 10:37:52 oklopol, and some more places where bugs could happen 10:38:56 if your program has bugs, you're a bad programmer, and it's good you get some exercise rewriting trivial programs. 10:40:11 oklopol, in any sufficiently complex programs, bugs do happen 10:40:18 even if you are a good programmer 10:40:40 well, how about i never make anything that complex, and we'll just consider me a small-scale programmer 10:41:14 oklopol, not even 1000 lines of code or so in any project? 10:41:21 that may well be the case, most programs worth writing are pretty short 10:41:39 well sure, but that's not "sufficiently complex" 10:41:59 i do some 300 lines per hour 10:42:09 for example, cfunge got around 10000 lines of code according to a "smart line counter" 10:42:21 and around 16000 in total 10:42:27 that include blanks and comment 10:42:37 well cfunge has lots of stuff. i would get bored before getting bugged 10:42:46 and with "smart line counter" I mean a program that can find what are actually comments and what are code. 10:43:13 though amusingly it thinks one file is C++, I guess because I happen to use a C++ keyword as an identifier 10:43:38 ... 10:43:43 well that's smart :) 10:43:48 what? 10:45:20 err, just that the name is somewhat ironic 10:46:27 oklopol, well it is the same software that site ohloh use 10:49:00 i don't know what that is :) 10:49:27 oklopol, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohloh 10:50:01 oh i see 10:50:19 oklopol, anyway their line-of-code counter is rather good. 10:50:34 what can it do? 10:50:54 oklopol, stuff like: http://rafb.net/p/4KJ7Ih69.html 10:51:22 so basically, it can parse the language, and calculate statements 10:51:27 does it do c++? 10:52:04 oklopol, well it does think so, it says c++ for one of the C headers. It does seem to have a slight problem keeping C and C++ apart, but that isn't easy indeed. 10:52:27 it isn't? 10:52:38 just parse as c, and if there's a problem, try c++ 10:52:59 oklopol, well I think it doesn't try to compile it, but does a simpler search 10:53:20 also you could probably write a program valid in both C and C++, but where the code means different stuff 10:53:30 even without resorting to #ifdef 10:53:48 in that case both are correct answers 10:55:26 Personally I'd just use the file suffix to decide the language; that's what gcc does, anyway. 10:55:41 fizzie, agreed 10:56:12 Though admittedly deciding between Perl and Prolog for .pl needs some heuristics, at least. 10:56:12 well that's just cheating P: 10:56:14 :P 10:56:39 well for perl and prolog you can probably just calculate some kinda entropy function 10:57:10 both use .pl? 10:57:27 Yes. 10:58:25 Although some people use .pro for Prolog, because of the Perl thing. Still, I think .pl is a lot more common. 11:02:51 fizzie, what does scheme use? 11:02:57 and what about haskell? 11:03:38 Haskell files are usually .hs, and Schemers use .scm. 11:03:47 hm 11:03:58 Although I've seen other Scheme file extensions than .scm too. 11:05:12 I think some PLT stuff is in ".ss" files. 11:05:31 ah yes sounds familiar 11:40:17 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:46:07 -!- slereah has joined. 11:46:07 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:01:21 xD after debugging my graph equivalence checked for ages i now realize it worked all along 12:23:11 -!- ehird has left (?). 12:23:14 -!- ehird has joined. 12:23:14 -!- ehird has left (?). 12:23:20 -!- ehird has joined. 12:23:23 Stupid butts. 12:23:26 dfgdfg 12:23:28 colloquy 12:23:31 haaaaate 12:31:21 I am not a butt 12:52:11 CoE: Yes you are 12:53:43 Meanwhile. 12:53:52 [[President Bush on Monday signed into law legislation creating a copyright czar, a cabinet-level position on par with the nation's drug czar.]] 12:53:55 Intellectual property woo 12:56:34 czar? 13:00:26 [[In the United States the title "czar" is a slang term for certain high-level civil servants, such as the "drug czar" for the head of the Drug Enforcement Administration, "terrorism czar" for a Presidential advisor on terrorism policy, "cybersecurity czar" for the highest-ranking Department of Homeland Security official on computer security and information security policy, and "war czar" to oversee the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.]] 13:19:54 ais523: ping 13:20:04 aw. away 13:37:54 Uh.. does the Funge-98 spec really say 'v' should go up? From catseye.tc: "subsequent lines increment the y coordinate" (so later lines get larger Y values), "delta is either (0,-1) (south), --" (so "south" means up towards earlier lines) and "the v "Go South" instruction causes the IP to travel south". 13:44:15 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:49:04 OO.o 3.0 is still a bloated, laggy, ugly-looking piece of shit! 13:49:05 :D 13:49:31 My god. That text rendering is just awful. 13:55:01 * AnMaster writes a "project creation request" at sf.net 13:55:12 and I think either I or them will go mad by it 13:55:18 either me* 13:55:20 maybe 13:55:40 * AnMaster is unsure of the correct English form there 13:55:53 ehird, and that is why you use LaTeX ;P 13:56:13 OO.o is not for the same purpose as LaTeX 13:56:19 agreed 13:56:23 also, sf.net should never be used 13:56:28 ehird, why not? 13:56:41 ehird, can't think of any good download hosting elsewhere 13:56:44 which is about all I need 13:56:52 it's an open source site hosted on a closed source, big bucks platform, it's very slow, the interface pretty much sucks, and yeah. 13:57:02 AnMaster: What is it for? 13:57:06 ehird, efunge. 13:57:12 "efunge is coded in the functional language Erlang as mentioned in the public description. While it currently doesn't differ much in the feature set from other Befunge-98 implementations, there are plans to take advantage of Erlang's unique actor-based concurrency model in the future. This would allow efunge taking advantage of the multi-core CPUs that are getting more and more common these days." 13:57:13 I'll host it on eso-std.org 13:57:15 the start of the request 13:57:16 ;P 13:57:27 and yeah insane 13:57:47 * AnMaster waits for ehird's comments on that 13:57:57 I want to stab you anyway, so. 13:58:00 But I'll host it on eso-std.org 13:58:12 ehird, hm. 13:58:33 ehird, anyway I think the software will be ready for a first release in maybe one week or two 13:58:51 that would be 0.0.1 or so 13:58:56 Sure. Whatever. I'll just put the tarballs or whatever up whenever you want. 13:58:58 no big deal. 13:59:05 ehird, would you do same for cfunge? ;) 13:59:14 not that I need it, since cfunge use sf.net for download hosting 13:59:19 * ehird stabs AnMaster 13:59:22 Now we don't have to find out! 13:59:29 ehird, eh? 14:00:20 ehird, anyway read the website for Java2K 14:00:24 and that is way more extreme 14:00:28 than the text I pasted 14:00:33 Yeah, 'cept you're serious. :) 14:00:45 ehird, I wasn't! 14:00:52 weren't? 14:00:53 err 14:00:56 was not 14:01:22 ehird, I really was trying not to laugh loudly when I wrote it 14:01:32 It wasn't that funny either. :D 14:01:47 agreed, but somewhat same style as Java2K 14:08:26 http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/efunge/ 14:08:31 quick and dirty 14:11:42 AnMaster: Please style html's background, not body. 14:11:48 Otherwise it looks ridiculous 14:11:57 ehird, oh? How? 14:12:09 The page is white, but the actual content has your barely-differenciated background. 14:12:13 It just looks like a bug in the page. 14:12:20 html{color:#000;font-family:sans-serif;background:#fcfcfc} 14:12:20 then? 14:12:24 Yes. 14:12:33 (I would just not style such a simple page at all, tbh) 14:12:45 it render no differently here 14:12:51 checked with screenshot 14:12:58 and comparing images 14:13:03 AnMaster: And? 14:13:09 hm 14:13:10 Both renderings are correct, I believe 14:13:17 It depends on the default height/width of body. 14:13:38 ehird, does it look better now? 14:13:43 Yes. 14:13:52 Although personally I don't quite like the colour scheme. 14:14:46 well, with all respect I like a slightly off-wite colour 14:14:54 Your choice, of course 14:14:59 thanks :) 14:15:03 I was responding to "does it look better now". 14:15:08 yeah 14:15:27 ehird, what browser were you using? 14:15:38 WebKit nightly. 14:15:48 (With the Safari chrome, obviously.) 14:15:58 ah was about to ask about that 14:16:16 I believe that Konqueror should display the same. 14:16:21 If not, well, something changed somewhere. 14:16:27 ehird, I have 3.5.x remember 14:16:42 4 hasn't mixed back WebKit. 14:16:45 So that's not really relevant. 14:18:16 http://blog.davglass.com/files/yui/bacon/ Finally! A good use of JavaScript! 14:36:52 lost game 14:49:49 "SourceForge operates SourceForge.net, Slashdot, Linux.com, IT Manager's Journal, NewsForge, and Freshmeat. SourceForge licensed SourceForge Enterprise Edition to enterprise organizations. ThinkGeek — an ecommerce site — is also under the SourceForge banner." 14:49:53 hrrm 14:50:17 source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sourceforge,_Inc. 14:50:29 and that would explain why several of those sites suck 14:50:54 at least those that I ever checked... sf.net, freshmeat slashdot and thinkgeek 14:55:16 AnMaster: you should see their app setup 14:55:18 it's a horrible java thing 14:55:20 that has to be run as a VM 14:55:24 ugh 14:55:26 and they charge like $5,000 for it 14:55:47 well I hope no one buys it 14:55:55 AnMaster: Oh they do. 14:55:58 Fun fact - 14:56:07 You know those crop of "forges" using a look-alike software? 14:56:09 Called GForge? 14:56:09 there got to be better alternatives 14:56:14 That was forked from when SourceForge was FOSS. 14:56:25 ehird, well berlios use a fork of the old foss version iirc 14:56:27 Before they made it proprietary crap. 14:56:29 AnMaster: Yah 14:56:30 and same for many other ones 14:56:45 But yes, there are better options. 14:56:57 ehird, we just got to wait for launchpad to go open source ;P 14:56:58 A _decent_ option, of course, would integrate it all with git. 14:57:00 * ehird gets mauled by AnMaster 14:57:07 Also, launchpad is awful. In my experience. 14:57:15 ehird, better than sf.net at least 14:57:18 (Plus I dislike Canonical. "Inc".) 14:57:23 AnMaster: What isn't? 14:57:31 Okay, okay, maybe Microsoft CodeProject. 14:57:36 But apart from that, come on, don't mock the retard. 14:57:37 That's not fair. 14:57:38 ehird, err.. lets see... yeah 14:57:40 :D 14:57:57 * ehird pets CodeProject 14:58:00 didn't know the name of the microsoft one 14:58:01 Noo, it's okay, you're really open source. 14:58:07 No, no, I know people are saying you're not. 14:58:08 It's okay. 14:58:12 You're a good little thing. 14:58:14 There there. 14:58:23 ehird, what about google code? 14:58:46 probably better 14:58:49 but not very good 14:58:53 just svn too iirc 14:58:56 Google code is good, actually. It only supports SVN though, and, of course, is closed source so you're tied to google. 14:58:59 I wouldn't put a large project on google code. 14:59:09 I wouldn't put any project there 14:59:09 (Note: cfunge is not large) 14:59:17 ehird, cfunge doesn't use svn 14:59:23 Yes. 14:59:30 But I was just waiting for you to claim your enterpriseyness. 14:59:40 which is why I actually use launchpad for mirroring branches 14:59:50 since it can handle the DVCS I use 15:00:27 ehird, anyway if I ever need to change from bzr, it will either be darcs or mercurial 15:00:34 http://www.aeroxp.org/2008/10/introducing-windows-7/ <- Someone at microsoft can't count 15:00:35 and I don't want a fight about that now 15:03:53 So. 15:03:54 -!- ehird has left (?). 15:03:57 -!- ehird has joined. 15:03:58 -!- ehird has left (?). 15:04:04 -!- ehird has joined. 15:04:28 Heh. I wonder if Agora will have a coinciding economic crisis to the real world. 15:04:39 ehird, why would it? 15:04:46 I *did* just start a CRAZY COMMUNIST BANK AUTOMATON there yesterday 15:04:54 AnMaster: Beats me :D 15:05:07 It would if I made my magical paypal<->agora bridge contract thing though 15:05:09 Which nobody would use 15:05:11 Because who is that crazy 15:05:13 Nobody 15:05:50 ehird, you? 15:05:55 no offence meant 15:06:05 Ok good point 15:06:29 also you mean like paying for agora money with real money? 15:06:30 to who? 15:07:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | chaos theoy, fractals, etc?. 15:07:18 AnMaster: I was thinking a trade system. 15:07:21 That's a nice topic. 15:07:34 fizzie, agreed 15:07:36 ehird, hm ok 15:07:36 Pay person money via paypal --> person is agora-required to give you the assets 15:07:47 And vise-versa. 15:07:49 *vice-versa. 15:08:27 heh 15:09:12 of course I'd probably hook it up into the People's Bank of Agora (the silly COMMUNIST PEOPLE BANK I made yesterday intended to overthrow the Reformed Bank of Agora) 15:09:15 ehird, what currency is used? 15:09:19 and what about conversion ratios 15:09:20 so that you could get some actually useful stuff out of it 15:09:33 (you'd send the money to the Coinkeepor) 15:09:58 AnMaster: I'd probably set 1 People's Bank of Agora coin = 1 penny, but I should probably pick a more stable country. 15:09:58 convertion* 15:10:01 I think 15:10:04 not sure about spelling 15:10:05 no 15:10:08 conversion 15:10:11 ok 15:10:12 but idiomatic is "exchange rates" 15:10:23 ehird, also shouldn't it be floating, like the real ones? 15:10:34 Yes. 15:10:37 But am I that bored? :-) 15:10:42 You know, Agora money on the international currency market 15:10:44 XD 15:10:58 AnMaster: That would roughly coincide with Agora becoming the law of an island we claim. 15:11:01 (Probably a traffic island.) 15:11:13 traffic island? 15:11:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_island 15:11:33 haha 15:11:33 ok 15:11:40 we could all squeeze on! 15:11:53 Anyway, the People's Bank of Agora actually does have floating exchange rates. 15:12:28 Every currency has an exchange rate which is initially 10. 15:12:39 "Every midnight (UTC) that the PBA has zero of a given Eligible Currency, 15:12:39 that currency's exchange rate goes up by 2. Every Monday midnight (UTC) that the 15:12:39 PBA has a non-zero amount of a given Eligible Currency, that currency's exchange 15:12:40 rate goes down by 2." 15:12:41 well I never understood how floating exchange rates were calculated in the real world even 15:12:47 and 15:12:52 when you deposit something for coins 15:13:02 the currency that you deposited's exchange rate goes down by 1 15:13:10 and if you withdraw some of that currency it goes up by one 15:13:11 hm 15:13:26 ehird, is it possible to make money from that? 15:13:36 You mean, for the bank to make money? 15:13:41 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:13:48 ehird, no, for a player 15:13:59 like convert to gain more back and forth as needed 15:14:05 Well, no. 15:14:13 It goes down on deposit, up one withdraw. 15:14:16 So it'd just keep batting and batting. 15:14:31 You can, however, make a profit overnight. 15:14:34 2 coins 15:14:43 just 2 coins? 15:14:57 AnMaster: Well, yes... 15:14:57 wouldn't that be 2x? 15:15:00 or? 15:15:00 No. 15:15:01 Why would it be? 15:15:09 "that currency's exchange rate goes up by 2" 15:15:24 AnMaster: exchange rate for currency X = how many coins X is worth 15:15:29 i.e., how many coins you get depositing one X 15:15:35 or how many coins you have to spend to get one X 15:15:40 yes so you can get 1:2, right? 15:15:44 oh wait, no 15:15:56 You're mixing up midnight changes with deposit/withdraw changes 15:16:00 ehird, you can't do a large bulk transaction? 15:16:04 Yes you can. 15:16:06 anyway, 2 coins profit overnight is a LOT 15:16:11 ehird, it is? hm 15:16:12 that's 20% of your cost for one asset back 15:16:16 since the default rate is 10 15:16:25 the rates will bubble up to like 50 soon enough, I imagine. 15:16:32 interesting 15:16:35 oh well 15:16:55 I'll paste the entire contract to a pastebin if you want, it's short and doesn't have that much agoraspeak. 15:17:32 hi ais523 15:18:36 hi ehird 15:18:56 ehird: you were talking about the PBA in #esoteric? How evil! 15:19:01 :D 15:22:34 ais523: do you have an algorithm for eodermdomizing a graph? <--- not yet, but I should be able to think of one 15:23:01 Though admittedly deciding between Perl and Prolog for .pl needs some heuristics, at least. <--- I thought Prolog was .pro... 15:23:14 no 15:23:16 prolog is .pl 15:23:19 and it used it before perl 15:24:34 ehird: I read through Prolog manuals before Perl was invented, and they used .pro 15:24:49 so I suspect that both were in common usage, even before Perl arrived and muddled the situation 15:28:35 Prolog is also .pro, yes. 15:29:19 But at least SWI-Prolog uses .pl by default; the manual does say .pro is a common alternative if you want to change the default extension. 15:46:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:52:36 Haskell files are usually .hs, and Schemers use .scm. 15:52:46 also .lhs, for literate syntax 15:53:00 TECO invented literate programming before it was invented 15:53:06 its effective comment marker is a toggle-comment 15:53:13 yay 15:53:18 so literate programs end up equivalent to illiterate programs 15:53:34 "effective comment marker", because TECO comments are done by creating labels with implausible names 16:00:20 Heh. I wonder if Agora will have a coinciding economic crisis to the real world. 16:00:55 oerjan: mmyes? 16:01:00 doesn't Agora have economic crises more often than the world economy changes at all? 16:01:38 Well... if by "crises" you mean "someone gets infinite of a currency and they make a clone contract without the flaw"... 16:01:43 Then yes. :-P 16:02:02 thought so 16:06:20 ais523: do you have an algorithm for eodermdomizing a graph? <--- not yet, but I should be able to think of one 16:06:41 from what i could see an optimal solution solves the hamiltonian graph problem :D 16:06:56 oh wait 16:06:57 for a planar graph, a nice simple awful algorithm would be to eodermdromize each region individually recursively 16:07:09 i'm wrong, it's the eulerian graph problem 16:07:22 which is easily solvable 16:07:24 yes, that probably leads to an efficient solution 16:07:45 hmm... it's very easy to tell if a graph's Eulerian 16:08:01 trying to find the shortest eodermdromizing if it isn't is potentially interesting, though 16:08:07 yeah 16:08:12 presumably you try all possible pairs of odd vertices to double the paths between 16:09:32 hm this sounds like it should be a known problem. 16:09:43 it is, I remember reading about it in a textbook somewhere 16:09:50 unfortunately I can't remember what it's called, or what the solution was 16:13:05 ah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_inspection_problem 16:25:32 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:59:30 -!- Mony has joined. 17:01:58 plop 17:02:27 hi Mony 17:02:37 hi ais523 17:56:10 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:02:36 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 18:03:13 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:13:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:18:13 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:40:58 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:43:44 -!- boily has joined. 18:45:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Client Quit). 18:45:57 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:47:47 -!- shorty5 has joined. 18:48:11 -!- shorty5 has quit (Client Quit). 18:48:22 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 18:54:43 -!- boily has quit ("leaving"). 19:40:29 -!- Mony has quit ("Ne regrettons pas le passé, ne nous préoccupons pas de l'avenir : le sage vit dans le présent."). 19:47:26 hi ais523 19:47:30 hi AnMaster 19:47:57 -!- atrapado has joined. 19:51:44 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:00:05 -!- Asztal has quit ("@"). 20:20:42 That -Os recompile? 20:20:46 Holy fuck did it help. 20:20:53 does that mean it did, or didn't? 20:21:09 It did. 20:21:15 By quite a lot. 20:21:16 what did it help with? 20:21:37 Speed and memory usage. 20:22:19 not to mention global warming, teeth decay and belly button lint 20:22:31 Low cache size, relatively small amount of memory, and slow swap means that -O2 system-wide is not all that beneficial... 20:27:49 pikhq: real men compile by hand 20:28:05 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:28:11 when space is an issue 20:30:48 bsmntbombdood: Space wasn't *that* much of an issue. 20:31:26 CODE... IN... SPAAAAAAACE! 20:32:43 real men only write code for their 8742s 20:32:56 and/or rebuilt lunar guidance computer 20:33:14 8742s? 20:34:15 an early microcontroller 20:34:23 <256 bytes of ram 20:35:15 How early? 20:35:24 256 bytes sounds pretty early 20:35:34 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 20:35:34 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:35:36 You could probably build that with an analytic engine 20:35:51 seventies 20:47:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:53:43 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:53:45 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:57:34 -!- ehird has changed nick to tusho. 20:58:11 -!- tusho has changed nick to ehird. 21:07:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://pasteserver.net/paste/show/260. 21:09:55 optbot: no fair, that has expired 21:09:55 oerjan: you might want to try this: +[>print<[,----------]+] 21:13:52 -!- ab5tract has joined. 21:14:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:15:00 -!- ehird has quit (Excess Flood). 21:15:43 -!- ehird has joined. 21:15:51 -!- ehird has quit (Excess Flood). 21:16:27 -!- ehird has joined. 21:16:53 -!- ehird has quit (Excess Flood). 21:17:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:17:19 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:17:34 -!- ehird has joined. 21:30:22 +ul (is this still working?)S 21:30:23 is this still working? 21:30:25 yay 21:31:59 Heh :D 21:32:42 -!- comex has changed nick to comex--. 21:40:16 ^ul (yay)S 21:40:23 yay 21:40:29 fizzie: aha 21:40:31 A little bit slower... 21:40:39 is that using the BF version of Underload? 21:40:44 ^ul (:aSS):aSS 21:40:49 It's still the Brainfuck one, haven't had time to fungotize the Funge-98 implementation I did. 21:40:50 +ul (:aSS):aSS 21:40:50 (:aSS):aSS 21:40:52 ...out of time! 21:40:52 fizzie: i use a lot more 21:42:02 fis@eris:~/src/bef$ echo '(:aSS):aSS' | ~/inst/rcfunge/rcfunge/funge -S underload.b98 21:42:06 (:aSS):aSS 21:42:08 all done. 21:42:31 hmm... have you posted that program online anywhere? 21:42:36 it would be interesting to see how it works 21:43:58 It works pretty much by doing exactly what the command descriptions in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload say. STRN fingerprint G/P/A commands are used to manipulate strings, and the stack is kept on one line of zero-terminated strings in Funge-space, growing to the negative direction. 21:44:37 ah, ok 21:44:41 It is also utterly boring and readable Befunge code. :/ 21:44:43 http://zem.fi/~fis/underload.b98.txt 21:45:12 yep, looks simple enough 21:45:36 And RC/Funge-98 fails on anything that tries to concatenate two strings whose total length is 1000 characters or more, due to the use of a fixed-size buffer and strcat. 21:45:47 also, the word "unterminated" looks great when written backwards 21:45:52 ^reverse unterminated 21:45:56 ^rev unterminated 21:45:56 detanimretnu 21:46:07 ^rev not supported 21:46:08 detroppus ton 21:46:11 That one is also nice. 21:46:14 yes 21:46:22 (It's in fungot sources when it loads the fingerprints.) 21:46:22 fizzie: " that", which was the size before? 21:46:48 ah, concatting long strings is kind-of common in Underload... 21:47:10 Yes, the factorial program on esolangs.org only works for inputs up to 6. 21:47:37 fis@eris:~/src/bef$ echo '(:::::::):(:((^:()~((:)*~^)a~*^!!()~^))~*()~^^)~(^a(*~^)*a~*()~^!()~^)a~**^!!^S' | ~/inst/rcfunge/rcfunge/funge -S underload.b98 21:47:40 Segmentation fault 21:49:41 Fibonacci gets up to 610, the next one (which should actually be only 987 stars) segfaults. 21:51:39 The 99 bottles of beer song works, though. (If I strip newlines -- the program input in the standalone version stops at \n.) 21:56:54 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:57:12 -!- Asztal has joined. 21:59:49 -!- comex-- has changed nick to comex. 22:00:57 -!- Slereah_ has quit. 22:07:44 The Funge version isn't especially _fast_, but it's really a couple of magnitudes faster than the Brainfuck-on-Funge version. ~14 seconds to run 99 bottles of beer. 22:07:49 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 22:10:19 heh, something for an esoteric shootout that :P 22:10:46 hmm... I wonder how it competes against the Thutu version? 22:13:52 Don't have a Thutu implementation or the Thutu Underload thing. Are they available somewhere? 22:14:24 yes, I think so 22:14:30 now I just have to remember where 22:14:54 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/thutu/ 22:15:18 also, Thutu always looks like that 22:15:21 at least when I write it 22:15:25 probably other people would be cleaner 22:15:37 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/thutu/src/ul.t2 is the Underload interpreter 22:15:49 and http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/thutu/impl/thutu.pl is a Thutu to Perl compiler 22:16:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 22:17:19 I implemented ^ so that it just places the string on top of the stack so that its last character replaces the ^; then suitably decrements the "current instruction" value so that it starts incrementing. That means that something like (:^foobar):^ will make the program extend into negative X coordinates of the funge-space. 22:18:44 yes, that sounds like a reasonable implementation 22:22:25 -!- ab5tract has quit. 22:22:49 Well, I did "perl thutu.pl < ul.t2 > ul.pl" and then "time cat 99.ul | perl ul.pl"... on this system it takes ~22 seconds to run the same 99-bottles-of-beer program. 22:22:59 yes, I'm not surprised 22:23:01 Thutu is very slow 22:23:09 when long strings are involved 22:23:16 it slows down when it's trying to store more in memory 22:23:27 sort of like BF programs slow down when thinking about large numbers 22:23:47 Now I'm hoping AnMaster won't notice the useless use of cat there in the timing. :p 22:24:02 wait, that isn't a useless use of cat 22:24:07 it actually took slightly longer 22:24:17 you're timing how long it takes cat to pipe its information into the Underload interp 22:24:21 rather than the Underload interp itself 22:24:31 time perl ul.pl < 99.ul would take slightly longer, I suspect 22:24:57 I think bash's "time" times the whole pipeline, actually. It's not a real command. 22:25:05 ah, ok 22:26:25 Yes; bash manpage: "The format for a pipeline is: [time [-p]] [ ! ] command [ | command2 ... ] -- If the time reserved word precedes a pipeline, the elapsed as well as user and system time consumed by its execution are reported when the pipeline terminates." 22:28:43 Thutu's kind-of hard to write in, because the entire program's in a loop and the end of the loop is the only place you can do I/O 22:28:49 so you have to do a lot of state-saving and such 22:29:28 it's a nice lang apart from that and the huge inefficiency, though, sometimes I use wimpmode Thutu to write things if I can't think of any other way to write them 22:37:12 we should have a #esoteric hardware project 22:37:28 were we collaboratively build a proccessor 22:37:32 bsmntbombdood: interesting 22:37:43 there are notes on a native-INTERCAL processor somewhere 22:37:50 but native Befunge-93 would probably be easier 22:38:20 the language doesn't have to be esoteric 22:38:24 just the actual hardware 22:38:28 ie, pneumatics 22:39:30 I had vague notions of designing a Befunge coprocessor for the "design a MIPS CPU" course -- the project-work was graded so that you got the best grade if you added "any coprosessor you like" -- officially you were supposed to do the MIPS FPU coprosessor, for which the specs were given, but that wasn't actually a "must". 22:40:01 Then I just skipped the course and did some signal-processing instead. :/ 22:40:18 why would anyone want a Befunge coprocessor? 22:40:26 actually, this is #esoteric, scratch that 22:40:40 Well, you could run your Befunge programs faster. 22:40:45 "Duh." 22:40:55 'twould be pretty hard to get compilers to make use of that, I'd think... 22:41:37 Maybe. Although it could be more like a Befunge device than a "coprocessor" in the traditional sense. 22:44:16 now I want to invent an esolang which can only be efficiently interpreted by a high-end GPU 22:44:23 and CPUs are ridiculously slow at 22:44:31 but I'm not really sure how GPUs work, so I don't think I can 22:47:10 The GPU programming languages (like Nvidia's Cg) seem a bit esoteric already, the little that I've seen of them. 22:47:34 actually, most programming languages are eso 22:47:47 if they're intended for anything but running on a standard processor 22:49:30 the easiest way would be to force execution to be massively paralell 22:50:54 dunno how you would do that though 22:51:31 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:51:51 00:29… ais523: it's a nice lang apart from that and the huge inefficiency, though, sometimes I use wimpmode Thutu to write things if I can't think of any other way to write them <<< did you mean you sometimes use thutu's wimpmode when you can't think of a way to write a program in conventional languages? 22:51:56 yes, I did 22:52:06 heh 22:52:12 the only known Forte interp's written in wimpmode Thutu 22:52:18 I couldn't think of another way to do it 22:52:26 other than effectively compiling the Thutu in my head and writing Perl 22:52:38 i was first asking that as a joke, then realized it's actually more probably you *did* mean it that way 22:52:42 *probable 22:53:25 perhaps i should try thutu too, can't be that bad 22:53:34 but, i gotta read -> 22:54:10 i bet oerjan knows 22:54:20 another way to do it? 22:54:27 IIRC, oerjan tried and never got very far 22:54:58 a way to design a language were execution has to be paralell 22:55:27 ah, ok 22:57:17 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 22:58:01 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:06:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:15:08 -!- olsner has joined. 2008-10-15: 00:48:56 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 00:57:10 -!- Corun has joined. 00:59:04 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 00:59:18 -!- olsner has joined. 00:59:29 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:35:43 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 01:41:55 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 01:42:06 I IS HERE 01:54:49 -!- olsner has joined. 02:42:03 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:07:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and it does implement all the comands. 05:56:43 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 06:29:47 -!- oklocod has joined. 06:35:24 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out). 07:04:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:05:51 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:22:31 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:08:43 -!- oklocod has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 08:08:45 -!- oklopol has joined. 08:09:55 orrorrorrorrorrorrorrorrorrorro 08:11:11 orrorrorrorrorrorrorrorrorro 08:27:45 rofr 08:29:43 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 09:07:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric |. 09:32:37 -!- oklocod has joined. 09:38:33 was gonna ask what 01101001100101101001011001101001... is, but realized there's a more trivial way to produce it, that everyone knows already. 09:39:11 Morse-Thue Morse-Thue Morse-Thue Morse-Thue Morse-Thue Morse-Thue 09:39:26 wat? 09:39:39 it's the Morse-Thue sequence 09:39:46 i don't know that one 09:39:49 ... 09:39:52 well i guess i do :P 09:39:59 but why the name? 09:40:45 hm apparently wp and mathworld switch the words 09:40:58 well, can you guess where i bumped into that? the course is called microprocessors 09:41:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thue-Morse_sequence#History 09:41:38 i had a program in my error because i initially thought that sequence was 01010101010... before i started thinking 09:41:49 it was one of my advisor's favorite examples 09:42:25 there's nothing about uses there 09:42:40 you asked why the name 09:42:45 ah 09:42:52 answer to my earlier question, right 09:43:30 glad i am now in the long list of mathematicians to discover that. 09:43:39 aye 09:43:46 but, guess the use! :D 09:44:36 (them microprocessors contain an bites...) 09:45:52 is this parity of bits connected? 09:46:12 ya 09:46:17 in binary 09:46:35 to inc, we prepend a 1, and then do everything we've done sofar 09:46:50 prepending a 1 will do nothing but swap all 1's and 0's 09:47:06 which means 09:47:08 err 09:47:12 http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Thue-MorseSequence.html has that as the second way to generate the sequence in Mathematica (of 6) 09:47:24 *prepending a 1 will do nothing but complement all parities 09:47:44 so we always duplicate what we have, but complemented 09:47:50 (the first is the one that connected it with my PhD work) 09:49:14 i'm probably not yet old enough to try reading that, btw? 09:49:32 (*old enough yet) 09:55:30 my magimatical powers aren't that developed yet 09:55:36 mathemagical would be better 10:05:17 -!- oerjan has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:43:42 -!- Corun has joined. 11:15:12 -!- oklocod has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:29:18 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 11:51:35 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:53:11 -!- moozilla has joined. 11:59:18 -!- slereah has joined. 12:25:20 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 12:25:20 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:39:51 -!- slereah has joined. 12:40:00 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:42:54 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:42:55 -!- SimonRC_ has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:42:56 -!- mtve has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:42:56 -!- slereah has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:42:57 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:42:57 -!- GregorR has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:42:58 -!- dbc has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:42:58 -!- cmeme has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:43:43 -!- slereah has joined. 12:43:43 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 12:43:43 -!- GregorR has joined. 12:43:43 -!- dbc has joined. 12:43:43 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 12:43:43 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:43:43 -!- SimonRC_ has joined. 12:43:43 -!- mtve has joined. 13:00:44 -!- ehird has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:00:44 -!- pikhq has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:00:44 -!- thutubot has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:00:46 -!- psygnisfive has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:00:46 -!- Asztal has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:00:47 -!- comex has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:01:30 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 13:01:30 -!- Asztal has joined. 13:01:30 -!- ehird has joined. 13:01:30 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:01:30 -!- thutubot has joined. 13:01:30 -!- comex has joined. 13:05:47 hi ais523 13:21:16 -!- Mony has joined. 13:39:38 -!- OverNord has joined. 13:40:26 -!- OverNord has left (?). 13:42:13 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 13:42:13 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:46:22 I just had an awful idea 13:46:52 There is Scheme. There is also XML Schema. So why not also XML Scheme? It is just a one letter difference. 13:47:13 and I think it may even be possible in theory, though horrible 13:51:22 There's SXML -- XML data as S-expressions. 13:51:30 Less horrible. 13:56:14 AnMaster: It's not a very interesting idea. 13:56:18 Also it's a trivial one. 13:56:29 I wish your "awful ideas" were more awful :| 13:56:39 but yes, been considered before. 13:57:01 This excellent article draws the parallel to xml in the introduction: http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.html 13:59:24 Heh, GCC-XML. 13:59:33 Yes. 14:00:12 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:00:28 AnMaster: You'll like this - 14:00:36 GCC-XML was made by the same people as your beloved CMake. 14:00:39 Where's your god now?! 14:01:50 Still, it's only a "C++ to XML so that GCC frontend can be used for parsing easier" tool, not a "XML syntax for C++ for GCC input" one. The latter would be more awful. 14:06:35 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 14:13:47 ehird, I like some stuff you done, but not everything? Your point? 14:13:59 what 14:14:06 GCC-XML was made by the same people as your beloved CMake. 14:14:06 Where's your god now?! 14:14:10 it was in response to that 14:14:16 i was being silly. 14:14:30 ehird, and I never claimed cmake was perfect 14:14:38 i was being silly. 14:14:40 just less terrible than autotools 14:14:42 ehird, ok :) 14:14:48 yay second time lucky 14:14:56 hah 14:16:06 ehird, well I read it first time, but changing that would mean the irc-line pipeline would have to be discarded. Somewhat like the Pentium 4 pipeline ;P 14:16:44 ah you're obsolete 14:17:18 haha 14:17:39 ehird, no a pentium 4 would have a pipeline of 200 lines or so 14:17:43 I just have 1-2 14:44:51 the latest pentium 4 models had a 31-stage pipeline 14:45:04 I think Core has around 15 14:48:00 wb ais523 15:07:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | If A and B are either registers, either given integers and C is register, the. 15:21:22 Uh oh, they're making the Pandoras with LEGOs! http://www.openpandora.de/images/padtop.jpg 15:22:17 I think you mean LEGO(TM) bricks 15:22:18 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:22:27 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 15:31:07 Uh oh, they're making the Pandoras with LEGOs! http://www.openpandora.de/images/padtop.jpg <--? 15:31:26 What has that image got to do with Greek mythology? Or was it Roman? 15:31:53 The Pandora is a (poorly-named) open source game system. 15:32:10 well I can't read that German site 15:32:22 Only the image is relevant X_X 15:32:26 openpandora.org for English 15:33:03 well it looks like a lego base plate but with an unusual shape 15:33:22 Yes, that was the joke :P 15:33:24 GregorR, however notice the base of the "studs" are slightly tilted? 15:33:38 I suspect it wouldn't actually fit with real lego due to that 15:33:44 GregorR: if AnMaster ever bugs you about a joke, don't ever reply x_x 15:33:47 even if the studs are the right size otherwise 15:33:54 ehird: I should've remembered that :P 15:34:17 well considering I had no clue what Pandora was in this context, how should I know it was a joke? 15:34:26 for all I know it could have been some lego related product 15:34:32 AnMaster: Touché. 15:34:40 "Oh no they're making the mythological character ut of LEGOs!" 15:34:46 ehird, not "oh no" 15:34:46 I think Occam's Razor applies here. 15:34:49 and read what I said 15:34:54 What has that image got to do with Greek mythology? Or was it Roman? 15:35:01 I wonder if anybody looked up the mythological figure Pandora before naming this game system :P 15:35:07 Oh look, I just broke my own rule. 15:35:26 "Cool, my new Pandora arrived. Time to open it! Haw haw haw, look, all the evil in the universe just came out of my new game system." 15:35:32 ehird, if it had been some lego model looking like mythology related then sure it would have made sense 15:35:40 so I suspect that was step 1 of the building instruction 15:35:42 or such 15:35:45 ... XD 15:36:19 So ehird, how's life in $YOUR_COUNTRY_OF_RESIDENCE. How's $YOUR_EMPLOYER_OR_UNIVERSITY treating you? 15:36:25 GregorR, I have never heard of a game system called pandora :P 15:36:41 GregorR, err, he is too young for either of those 15:36:42 GregorR: Good! And the second variable is null. :-P 15:37:05 "UNIVERSITY" is taken to mean any educational institution at any level. 15:37:16 I reject your semantics and substitute my own. 15:37:23 "UNIVERSITY" means "a fine summer's day" 15:37:26 In which case, very nicely! 15:37:31 hm ehird, what school level are you in now? I don't know the English school system very well 15:37:33 Even though it is not a fine summer's day 15:37:46 ehird: I reject your parody of Adam Savage and substitute my own. 15:37:46 AnMaster: I don't know the Swedish system, so beats me :D 15:37:49 Anyhoo. 15:37:59 GregorR: D: 15:38:05 ehird, what is it called in English then? Primary school? Or is that for younger? 15:38:20 I got no clue how the English school system works as I said :P 15:38:25 AnMaster: Depends which Swedish level you are talking about :P 15:38:26 Oh look 15:38:29 Melab ha made more edits! 15:38:45 Let's see if they're any good 15:38:48 well I was wondering what the English name for it was ehird 15:38:59 AnMaster: for -what- 15:39:39 ehird, the school "level" or whatever you are in. Like "university" "high school" or such 15:39:50 I don't know what the word for the collection of those are 15:39:58 s/are/is/ 15:40:00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_Kingdom 15:40:01 :D 15:40:08 Or rather http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_England 15:40:08 ehird, thanks 15:41:15 AnMaster: (the bottom line in the graph thingy there, 3 tier system) 15:41:19 well from what I know of you and from what that page says, it would be "secondary school"? 15:41:38 oh ok 15:42:02 heh, I'd never heard of the 3-tier system and I live in England 15:42:16 ehird, so "upper school"? 15:42:30 AnMaster: I haven't actually heard it being called "upper school" so I can't say for certain. 15:42:37 But I imagine so. 15:42:40 Asztal: Weird 15:42:40 what would you call it? 15:42:55 AnMaster: If it's the same thing as it looks like on that graph, I'd call it high school. 15:43:01 ah 15:43:02 Every school I've seen up north has been the second kind. 15:43:16 AnMaster: here in England we have primary school, secondary school, college (which is sometimes part of secondary school), and sometimes university 15:43:20 I live up north too. 15:43:29 ais523: Not in the 3-tier system. 15:43:52 I haven't ever seen a non-3-tier school, there was some hullabaloo about people complaining about switching schools to 3-tier a few years ago. 15:44:02 Huh, that's confusing. 15:44:08 College is a separate level from University? 15:44:14 GregorR: 6th form college 15:44:14 Maybe I live in BIZZARO BRITAIN 15:44:20 and yes 15:44:22 GregorR: That's always bemused me too 15:44:23 it's when you do A levels 15:44:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_oldest_university_in_England_debate 15:44:34 best page title EVER 15:44:40 heh... 15:44:42 A University is just a collection of Colleges in the US :P 15:45:02 this reminds me of the edit war about whether to link to http://thethirdbestwebsiteintheuniverse.com or http://the3rdbestwebsiteintheuniverse.com 15:45:23 Well in Sweden we have grundskola then gymnasie, then university. Grundskolan (Adding an n here means same as "the" in English) is usually divided in three stages, lower, middle, upper. Usually lower and middle stages are co-located at the same school, and the upper stage is often located separately 15:45:54 I don't know why that is so, maybe because they start teaching chemistry and physics in the upper stage ;) 15:46:04 Presumably grundskola is Swedish for "grunge school" and gymnasie is Swedish for "gymnasium" 15:46:09 oh, there's also nursery before primary school, but that's optional and many children never go to nursery 15:46:29 college is optional too, but you're generally considered stupid if you fail to go there (unlike university, where many people never go) 15:46:34 I went to nursery! 15:46:40 so did I, as it happens 15:46:46 GregorR, gymnasium and gymnasie are both valid spellings of the same word, meaning the same. Just a case of language changing over time I think 15:46:47 ais523: this reminds me of the edit war about whether to link to http://thethirdbestwebsiteintheuniverse.com or http://the3rdbestwebsiteintheuniverse.com 15:46:48 wtf 15:46:55 GregorR, and "gymnasie" is like high school 15:47:03 I went to the US equivalent of nursery school (preschool) 15:47:15 grundskolan is like "basic school", literally translated 15:47:16 ehird: you get edit wars about all sorts of silly things 15:47:16 also, grunge school is an awesome name 15:47:20 I'm going to GRUNGE SCHOOOOOOOL 15:47:21 ais523: what article 15:47:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=WP:LAME is one of my favourite humor pages 15:48:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Best_Page_in_the_Universe 15:48:21 sorry, I found it quickly 15:48:24 but the copy-and-paste was weird 15:48:29 it kept higlighting backwards for some reason 15:48:45 and I meant page not website 15:48:54 although presumably the URLs I gave are also taken by now... 15:59:30 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:04:23 * ais523 starts one of eir assignments for University 16:04:26 *their 16:04:35 I'm amused, because it uses Booleans with 9 different possible values 16:04:46 none of which are FILE_NOT_FOUND, unfortunately 16:14:47 -!- oklocod has joined. 16:30:51 ayo 16:31:20 hi psygnisfive 16:31:26 howsit goin guys 16:31:35 slowly and tiredly 16:31:39 :( 16:31:50 conversing with yourself can be like that, i imagine 16:32:07 ah, I'm conversing with other people elsewhere 16:32:13 but not here! 16:32:14 :D 16:34:02 I don't mind monologuing really 16:34:06 as #esoteric has lots of logreaderes 16:34:09 *logreaders 16:35:13 ais523, "Booleans with 9 different possible values"? 16:35:18 Do you have time telling more? 16:35:19 yep 16:35:23 yes, I think so 16:35:27 it's in one of the IEEE standards 16:35:32 to represent real physical booleans 16:35:36 err 16:35:39 which are normally 0 or 1 16:35:40 this is a joke right? 16:35:46 but can take on all sorts of other values in weird cases 16:35:49 and not a joke at all 16:35:50 or are you actually serious? 16:35:52 huh 16:36:00 inside a computer, wires are normally at 0V or 5V for 0 or 1 16:36:05 but there are other possibilities 16:36:13 for instance, a wire might be held at 0V via a resistor 16:36:17 ais523, aren't boolans *defined* as being either true/false, with implementation defined values for true and false? 16:36:25 AnMaster: depends on the language 16:36:34 if you're simulating hardware, they're defined to have 9 possible values 16:36:38 hm 16:36:38 ah 16:36:43 even C has 3 values for booleans, really 16:36:46 true/false/uninitialised 16:36:49 haha 16:37:02 the 9 possible values includes 3 sorts of uninitialised 16:37:04 ais523, that only applies to non-static variables 16:37:08 well, ok 16:37:12 iirc static variables are initialised to 0 16:37:14 but still, do you see what I'm getting at 16:37:17 I *think* it is in the standard 16:37:19 (and yes, they are) 16:37:20 Hey, you are all probably experts in this field: I have this plate made out of "compound marble" (a sort of marble/plastic composite material, apparently) and I need two circular holes in it (with diameters of 34 and 45 mm). Where can I find a company (in Finland, preferrably Espoo) that can make me such holes? 16:37:25 (or NULL for pointers) 16:37:35 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:37:36 (but 0 in a pointer context _is_ NULL) 16:37:41 ais523, that is only because NULL is defined to be 0 16:37:47 same as false happens to be 16:37:49 ugh, no it isn't 16:37:54 NULL can have a non-zero value 16:38:05 a literal constant integer 0 gets converted to NULL when casted to a pointer, though 16:38:11 ais523, ah yes 16:38:12 unlike a non-constant integer with the value 0 16:38:19 hm right 16:38:43 anyway, there's no reason why a C interp couldn't assign an "uninitialised" value to variables before they were initialised 16:38:44 I'm not quite sure you can have the macro 'NULL' defined to a nonzero value. 16:38:47 anyway yeah true/false are defined differently in different languages. Bash inverts it for example, 0 is true, non-zero is false 16:38:48 and error when they encountered it 16:38:57 fizzie: no, you can't, only (0) or ((void*)0) 16:39:01 but (int)NULL can be nonzero 16:39:23 so, VHDL has 9 possible values of std_logic_bits (which are effectively booleans) 16:39:27 0 and 1 16:39:37 then weak 0 and weak 1 which are like 0 and 1 except if there's a short circuit 16:39:47 (called L and H) 16:39:49 and at least some languages seems to use special types, such as scheme (#t, #f) erlang (the atoms: true, false) 16:39:58 then there's X, which means you have a short circuit that actually catches fire 16:40:07 W which means you've got a value somewhere between 0 and 1 16:40:16 U for uninitialised 16:40:20 ais523, anyway couldn't you define +6V to be true? or whatever 16:40:23 - for if you explicitly don't care 16:40:32 and Z for a wire which isn't connected at all 16:40:34 AnMaster: yes 16:41:03 ais523, and +6.5V, +7V, and so on. So there are an infinite number of "true" 16:41:15 depending on the current circuit 16:41:18 well, yes 16:41:25 in practice 0V and 5V are most commonly used 16:41:34 except RS-232 uses -12V and +12V because it's weird 16:41:43 ais523, no idea, but maybe you want to use less in a low power application? 16:41:53 don't know if that would make sense 16:42:00 well, probably, I suspect inside processors they only use millivolts 16:42:05 this is rather beside the point, though 16:42:19 as 01LHXWU-Z logic works fine no matter what voltages you use 16:42:33 ais523, also what was that about fire? 16:42:45 if you connect 0 to 1 directly in simulation, you get X 16:42:51 if you try it in real life something normally catches fire 16:42:55 hm 16:43:00 as you're shorting out the power supply 16:43:07 ais523: Usually something just turns off. 16:43:12 unless there is a fuse? 16:43:20 well, fuses are designed to catch fire first 16:43:25 to save the rest of the circuit 16:43:41 ais523, err aren't some like fuses you just press a button to re-arm? 16:43:43 fizzie: clearly you work with much higher-grade power supplies than I normally do... 16:43:51 AnMaster: those are circuit breakers, yes 16:43:55 they're fuse-like but resettable 16:43:58 ah that is the English word 16:44:00 and don't need to catch fire to work 16:44:09 they're a lot more expensive than fuses, though 16:44:16 so normally they're only used for buildings 16:44:22 rather than individual plugs 16:44:57 ais523, I think I have seen it used for individual plugs... in a physics classroom :D 16:45:07 well, I wouldn't blame them for doing it there 16:45:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:45:15 I was in a physics classroom :( 16:45:25 Slereah_: why the :(? 16:45:26 We did bitwise operation this morning, for some reason 16:45:31 ais523: I don't really do electronics, but I think computer power supplies quite often manage to turn off instead of catching fire if there's a short somewhere. 16:45:33 huh 16:45:45 fizzie: sometimes, often the chip in question burns out first 16:45:49 or at least gets hot 16:46:05 after a while as an electronic engineer, you can detect short circuits by temperature 16:46:12 (if it burns your hand, there's a short circuit...) 16:46:13 get hot? Then what is the point of the fan in the power supply? 16:46:19 AnMaster: hotter even than that 16:46:32 modern computers get hot even without short circuits 16:46:38 but short circuits make them still hotter 16:46:53 yeah, touching a pentium 4 would burn your hand, even if there wasn't a short circuit 16:47:14 I seen a p4 run fine at 60 C or so 16:47:20 *shudder* 16:47:37 you have to be careful at those sort of temperatures 16:47:45 as most hard drives start forgetting data at about 52 degrees C 16:47:48 The on-chip temperature thing on this Athlon X2 says it's running at 35 degrees (core 0) / 30 degrees (core 1). 16:47:52 my current cpu, a sempron, only reach above 40 C on very hot days, currently it is 32 C 16:48:29 oh btw: AnMaster: ehird: are you happy with how you're credited in the current C-INTERCAL README? 16:48:35 s/README/NEWS/ 16:48:37 how am i credite 16:48:37 ais523, well the case had a fan in the front iirc on that computer, and the hardrives where close to that, also one fan in the back, then one on the CPU, then one in the PSU 16:48:39 d 16:48:46 ehird: with your real name 16:48:52 ais523, I ask same question as ehird, and for what? 16:48:53 yep, that's fine 16:49:02 although yeah 16:49:04 AnMaster: for finding bugs 16:49:04 let me link you to it 16:49:04 what for ;-) 16:49:09 also finding bugs 16:49:14 ais523, fine with real name, but don't include any email 16:49:22 oh 16:49:30 you can include my email if you wanted but i don't have a permanent one atm 16:49:30 no email, don't worry 16:49:34 http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/NEWS 16:49:43 as i'm likely going to start publicizing my @ehird.net one once I get that 16:49:45 Re INTERCAL, the Wikipedia article -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTERCAL -- has broken links for references #2 and #5. 16:49:55 Someone who regularly edits that thing might fix them. 16:50:08 fizzie: good to know, I may fix them at some point 16:50:08 ais523, who reported the -F issue? 16:50:12 they are both available on code.eso-std.org 16:50:14 it is under "Bugs reported by Elliott Hird" 16:50:15 just links to the manual 16:50:22 AnMaster: ehird did first 16:50:24 AnMaster: well 16:50:24 then I fixed it 16:50:25 let's see 16:50:29 it's under "bugs reported by elliott hird" 16:50:29 then it broke again and you reported it the second time 16:50:31 I'm pretty sure I reported it, and you didn't say anything about it back then 16:50:33 do you think you could make a guess :D 16:50:35 but I haven't fixed the new bug yet 16:50:39 ais523, ah right 16:50:50 and unfixed bugs aren't in the changelog 16:52:22 ais523, what is the second entry about really? 16:52:34 the 64-bit things? 16:52:37 er 16:52:38 third 16:52:39 I meant 16:52:52 AnMaster: it's about varargs vs. stdarg 16:52:58 the old method of detecting which one to use was broken 16:53:05 ais523, What did I report it as? 16:53:09 and both you and ehird noticed when trying to compile on architectures that didn't have varargs.h 16:53:18 hm 16:53:24 AnMaster: you reported it as a compile failure, and I figured the bug from the error messages 16:53:30 I don't remember it, but ok. I don't have good memory for such stuff 16:53:51 ais523, sounds vaguely familiar now... 16:53:59 that was ages ago 16:54:04 just after the last release, in April or so 16:54:11 ais523, but wouldn't it just be an autoconf check for the headers? 16:54:15 it is now 16:54:16 it wasn't hten 16:54:18 *then 16:54:28 err how was it done then? 16:54:37 looking for defines in the header files it included 16:54:47 you know, the ones that the standards say should be there 16:54:49 so cfunge-style 16:54:58 only I think they either checked the wrong one, or it was slightly nonstandard 16:55:07 well varargs wouldn't exist, so that would error, but if varargs existed and stdargs didn't, then including that would error. 16:55:19 AnMaster: it checked some other header file for the define 16:55:22 and I don't remember it being defined elsewhere? 16:55:23 probably stdio.g 16:55:25 hm 16:55:25 *stdio.h 16:55:30 as it needs to do varargs for printf 16:55:58 ais523, the va* functions would only be called in the printf function, not needed for the prototype in the header file 16:56:05 so I can't see how that would work either :P 16:56:08 AnMaster: ... 16:56:19 printf needs to know whether to put a ... in the prototype or not 16:56:19 ais523, ? 16:56:35 so it needs to include the headers that define the constants that specify whether to use varargs or stdarg 16:56:43 varargs didn't use the ... syntax 16:57:01 ais523, um, I never actually seen varargs syntax in the wild. 16:57:06 I have 16:57:12 it's prototypeless 16:57:17 /usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/include/varargs.h seems to have one entry: 16:57:20 the varargs definition for stdio 16:57:21 #error "GCC no longer implements ." 16:57:21 #error "Revise your code to use ." 16:57:23 two 16:57:30 *printf 16:57:33 is int printf() 16:57:45 and then all sorts of magic is used at printf's end to get the argument list 16:57:54 under stdarg.h, of course, it's int printf(char* format, ...) 16:57:55 /usr/include/gentoo-multilib/amd64/stdio.h:extern int printf (__const char *__restrict __format, ...); 16:57:56 err 16:58:00 whatever you say :P 16:58:08 whoops, forgot the restrict and const 16:58:09 seems hard coded to me 16:58:19 AnMaster: that architecture doesn't support varargs.h 16:58:25 which is why C-INTERCAL's old check failed 16:58:33 /usr/include/gentoo-multilib/x86/stdio.h:extern int printf (__const char *__restrict __format, ...); 16:58:37 still seems hard coded? 16:58:42 * AnMaster checks on some other OS 16:58:42 yes, exactly 16:58:49 that's how you code it under stdarg.h 16:58:57 which is right, as varargs.h no longer exists 16:59:02 so the header files don't have to support it 16:59:02 int printf(const char * __restrict, ...); 16:59:04 that is freebsd 16:59:11 if they supported both varargs and stdarg, they'd need two prototypes 16:59:15 one for each mechanism 16:59:16 freebsd 6.3 to be exact 16:59:24 nobody does nowadays though 16:59:28 ais523, I think varargs was dropped years ago 16:59:31 well, yes 16:59:34 C-INTERCAL is years old though 16:59:42 it predates stdarg.h... 16:59:51 ais523, it seems not even gcc 3.x support varargs? 16:59:59 probably not 17:00:01 it was a mess 17:00:09 and actually, it's to do with the headers 17:00:11 not the compiler 17:00:12 well I consider stdargs quite a mess too 17:00:20 as long as all arguments are passed on the stack 17:00:23 which they used to be 17:00:40 well they usually are for variable argument count functions 17:00:54 well, yes 17:00:56 under stdargs.h 17:01:02 which has the ... in the prototype 17:01:05 yep 17:01:07 so the compiler knows to do that 17:01:17 under varargs, the prototype was the same for varargs and non-varargs functions 17:01:22 and everything was passed on the stack 17:01:32 err one question though 17:01:42 1) C89 added stdargs.h 17:01:46 yes 17:01:55 and yes, C-INTERCAL was pre-C89 originally 17:01:58 2) C89 added prototypes too didn't it? At least K&R C didn't have it 17:02:03 and yes 17:02:03 so 17:02:07 " under varargs, the prototype was the same for varargs and non-varargs functions" 17:02:08 stdargs.h needs prototypes to work 17:02:09 my question 17:02:11 What prototypes? 17:02:13 AnMaster: there wasn't a prototype 17:02:18 which is what I meant by it being the same 17:02:32 I should have said the declaration was the same 17:02:37 ah yes NULL = NULL I guess 17:02:40 ==* 17:02:42 ;P 17:04:23 (you should know by now I tend to notice such issues with wording ;P) 17:06:36 ais523, "1. Fixed a typo in the perpet.c version of the help information." 17:06:36 hmm... speaking of C-INTERCAL bugs, is it still possible to write DO ;1 <- ;2 and it will generate (invalid) C? 17:06:40 I don't remember that 17:07:18 ais523, also that reminds me of another bug I reported, that c-intercal generated code with linking errors when trying to run a hello world CLC-INTERCAL program 17:07:21 wb ais523 17:07:29 no idea if that is fixed 17:07:29 (I reported that to esr around 2005/2006, but it doesn't look at first glance as though later versions fixed it) 17:07:50 ais523, you were away? 17:08:04 very well I suggest some log-reading :) 17:08:14 He was away for... a few minutes. 17:08:18 ah 17:08:19 His last message was at 17:02. 17:08:21 It is now 17:08. 17:08:26 * [ais523] idle 00:00:54, signon: Tue Oct 14 22:17:17 17:08:28 hm 17:08:37 AnMaster: link errors? 17:08:37 that shouldn't happen 17:08:37 yes, internet connection failed 17:08:37 I have a bouncer now to avoid quitspamming channels I'm in when that happens 17:08:52 ais523, and yes I remember talking to you about it and you weren't sure how to fix it 17:09:05 he had no link errors 17:09:05 :P 17:09:16 i just said 'wb ais523' when he re-bouncer-connected 17:09:19 AnMaster: do you want to try again? 17:09:24 ais523, this one iirc: http://intercal.freeshell.org/examples/hello.i 17:09:27 the relevant part of the code is really different now from what it used to be 17:09:30 ohh 17:09:33 link errors in cintercal 17:09:33 xD 17:09:48 ehird, no as in link errors when compiling/linking generated program 17:09:57 yes 17:10:03 i thought you meant on irc 17:11:01 Backing up ./configure(-darcs-backup0) 17:11:01 We have conflicts in the following files: 17:11:01 ./configure 17:11:02 blergh 17:11:41 how do you revert a whole file ais523 in darcs? 17:11:49 darcs revert configure just locks up 17:11:59 at: 17:12:01 Shall I revert this change? (1/681) [ynWsfvpxdaqjk], or ? for help: a 17:12:15 AnMaster: it would do, probably 17:12:18 given the nature of configure 17:12:27 the easiest way is to copy it from _darcs/pristine 17:12:32 ah ok 17:12:56 ais523, also it will just be re-generated with newer autotools again 17:13:07 well, yes, probably 17:13:10 is that a problem? 17:13:20 that's what's meant to happen... 17:13:43 ais523, not really, unless you change it making darcs pull result in conflicts ;P 17:14:04 well, in theory you shouldn't store the configure file in the repo at all, for that sort of reason 17:14:05 ais523, most other project leaves configure and other generated files out of repo, having users generate it 17:14:09 yep 17:14:13 but I assume you got some reason 17:14:16 maybe related to DOS 17:14:18 who knows 17:14:23 so that people can download the repo and it works, as it happens 17:14:30 without having the maintainer tools available 17:14:34 ais523, well configure would be generated for release tarballs 17:14:38 yes, it would be 17:14:50 but I try to keep the repo and release tarballs in sync 17:14:53 as in, containing the same files 17:14:55 and do you think most users of the darcs version will lack autotools? 17:15:00 I have no idea 17:15:05 I did, for ages 17:15:07 so it seems plausible 17:15:27 ais523, that would have been quite a problem for a *maintainer* 17:15:36 you'd be surprised 17:15:43 I edited the configure script with search-and-replace 17:15:48 and kept in in sync with config.in 17:15:53 if you're trying to infuriate AnMaster 17:15:57 i can't think of a better way to do it 17:15:58 kudos 17:16:02 well first you have to remove a few PLEASE from that hello.i it seems 17:16:04 ehird: I'm not, I'm just telling the truth 17:16:13 ais523: ... which is possibly the best way :D 17:16:16 AnMaster: yes, CLC-INTERCAL and C-INTERCAL define comment lines differently 17:16:31 you need to put DO in front of every line in hello.i for C-INTERCAL to recognise it 17:16:32 ais523, should I remove " PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE (PRETTY PLEASE)" maybe? 17:16:43 well, every ERROR: line 17:16:50 there's a difference in handling between the two langs 17:17:05 I just removed the PLEASE PLEASE... 17:17:08 $ ./ick hello.i 17:17:08 /tmp/cczl1GlE.o: In function `ick_og9b59730': 17:17:08 hello.c:(.text+0x1ce): undefined reference to `ick_or0' 17:17:09 and so on 17:17:10 in CLC-INTERCAL, DO COME FROM .1 ERROR: This should never be reached is two statements 17:17:15 ais523, that was the error 17:17:17 in C-INTERCAL, it's one statement 17:17:19 I'm 100% sure I reported it before 17:17:20 ah, and ok 17:17:24 and you said it was hard to fix 17:17:24 and yes, you did 17:17:28 I wonder what happened to that? 17:17:33 ais523, do you have a bugzilla? 17:17:34 it means the typecaster's got lost somewhere 17:17:35 ;P 17:17:47 i never, ever use bugzillas 17:17:55 AnMaster: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?ordering=normal;archive=both;src=intercal;repeatmerged=1 17:17:57 not a bugzilla 17:17:59 but similar 17:18:03 that's Debian's 17:18:04 ah 17:18:04 but I read it 17:18:14 bug reporting is a form where you enter your problem as plaintext, and it gives you a URL to track people's comments 17:18:19 however, if you use it atm Debian will go mad 17:18:20 ais523, I think launchpad may have one too? 17:18:24 the -developers- can handle stuff like priorities 17:18:28 probably, but that's for Ubuntu only 17:18:31 ais523, yeah 17:18:38 and they've been really bad at forwarding bugs to anyone 17:18:45 I reported a typo in the man page and Debian never saw it 17:18:51 so I've just been reporting directly to Debian recently 17:18:55 ais523: worse than gentoo? 17:19:00 no idea 17:19:03 probably, but that's for Ubuntu only <-- huh? 17:19:04 presently they're at 0% 17:19:11 in my experience 17:19:22 so it's hard for Gentoo to be worse than that 17:19:23 err 17:19:24 wrong one 17:19:28 however, if you use it atm Debian will go mad 17:19:31 ais523: gentoo's at -1% - they make major modifications and then don't tell people 17:19:32 damn scrolling window 17:19:36 it scrolled while I selected! 17:19:39 so the original devs get bugs 17:19:41 due to gentoo changes 17:19:43 AnMaster: because their C-INTERCAL maintainer resigned from that 17:19:51 probably for time reasons or whatever, I don't know 17:19:51 so a lot of devs just say 'don't report problems on gentoo' 17:19:53 hm 17:19:54 and nobody took it up atm 17:20:00 also what do you mean gentoo at -1%? 17:20:07 Can we *PLEASE AVOID A FLAMEWAR* 17:20:24 distro choice is subjective anyway 17:20:32 some prefer source based, other want binary based 17:20:34 and so on 17:20:42 there is no reason to flame about it 17:20:53 * AnMaster considers a flame war about having a flame war 17:20:55 what I mean is, if you report a bug against C-INTERCAL in Debian atm, the core Debian developers have to try to fix it 17:21:02 and they're busy with other things 17:21:11 last time it happened I saved them by sending an upstream patch 17:21:24 ais523, hah 17:22:27 (that was the configure failing in dash bug) 17:22:41 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=485066 17:23:48 ha 17:24:12 but why on earth does anyone care about dash? 17:24:32 it's smaller than bash 17:24:40 since the () version would be valid according to POSIX iirc 17:24:43 and there is at least one extreme disk-space optimiser in Debian 17:24:46 and yes, I agree 17:24:56 the changelog is wrong, it was a dash-only bug 17:25:00 even though it would declare an array 17:25:00 rather than a bashism 17:25:22 but dash is the default /bin/sh on Debian 17:25:24 ais523, didn't you report that as a bug in the changelog? 17:25:33 no, couldn't be bothered 17:25:36 it's not important enough 17:25:42 ais523, you should IMO just to mess with them 17:25:42 to report a slight mistake in someone else's changelog 17:25:54 AnMaster: I want to stay on good terms with them, though... 17:26:29 ais523, I think it is spreading false and negative information about POSIX shell syntax as wekk as being rather arrogant 17:26:32 ;P 17:26:40 this would make such a great flame war... 17:26:41 but no 17:26:51 ais523, and yes it would, but no I wouldn't take part in it 17:27:00 no, neither would I 17:27:10 we're effectively having a flame war by hypotheticals atm, though 17:27:22 "hey, if someone flamed me by saying X, I'd flame them back by saying Y..." 17:27:25 ais523, but I would still contact them about it, as they are clearly misinformed ;P 17:27:58 probably serves me right for writing funky syntax in something that is irrelevant anyway 17:28:05 besides, that code isn't even /in/ C-INTERCAL atm 17:28:18 ais523, well yeah, I wouldn't declare an array there either 17:29:28 (basically since I coded so much bash I would spot it as an array from, maybe not a mile, but maximum reading distance, depending on font, size of text, light level, and so on) 17:31:07 ais523, anyway I'm pretty sure you said, that http://intercal.freeshell.org/examples/hello.i (with corrected please level) should still not generate that linking error, right? 17:31:58 ais523, also it is possible to write programs that work on bot C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL? 17:32:16 for example, that hello world 17:33:18 ugh 17:33:22 sorry about that 17:33:26 the last I saw was a relatively funny joke from AnMaster about array syntax and the distance at which e could read it 17:33:38 ais523, anyway I'm pretty sure you said, that http://intercal.freeshell.org/examples/hello.i (with corrected please level) should still not generate that linking error, right? 17:33:38 ais523, also it is possible to write programs that work on bot C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL? 17:33:38 for example, that hello world 17:33:41 was all since then 17:33:59 it's pretty easy to write a C-INTERCAL/CLC-INTERCAL polyglot 17:34:10 that hello world is full of CLC-INTERCAL-specific features 17:34:20 ais523, hm what about throwing J-INTERCAL into that mix too? 17:34:27 and doesn't work on C-INTERCAL even with syntax corrected and in CLC-INTERCAL emulation mode 17:34:37 AnMaster: still possible, but you'd be restricted to INTERCAL-72 features and COME FROM 17:34:43 ah 17:34:47 and have to steer away from some thorny parts 17:35:10 ais523, does that include the needed output for hello world? 17:35:11 also, flow control would be impossible on CLC-INTERCAL's default settings, as INTERCAL-72 flow control is deprecated in CLC-INTERCAL 17:35:19 hehe 17:35:27 AnMaster: actually hello.i doesn't output anything 17:35:34 oh? 17:35:38 it errors if its input isn't "Hello, world!" 17:35:38 I don't have clc around 17:36:08 and CLC-INTERCAL does text I/O differently from J-INTERCAL and C-INTERCAL 17:36:28 it's easy to write a 4-way polyglot between INTERCAL-72, C-INTERCAL, J-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL's C-INTERCAL emulation mode, though 17:36:30 ah 17:36:44 which reminds me, I need to send Claudio some patches to improve that emulation mode at some point 17:37:12 ais523, you got the local changes already? 17:37:19 sort of 17:37:20 not really 17:37:23 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:37:25 it's kind-of hard to explain 17:37:31 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:38:24 hm 17:38:33 ais523, ok 17:38:49 ais523, still shouldn't it error out before linking time? 17:38:56 c-intercal on that hello world I meant 17:39:33 no, it should be a runtime error 17:39:38 ais523, ok that then 17:39:44 there is a genuine error you've identified there 17:39:50 but it'll be a pain to track down 17:39:57 I need to figure out wtf the type-caster is doing 17:40:36 ais523, I seem to recall you said it was something with invalid code in comments needing to be around in case they were ever restored 17:40:38 or something such 17:40:48 yes, it is to do with that 17:40:54 but in particular, it's something that looks like an expression 17:41:01 yet doesn't type properly, and the typecaster didn't notice 17:41:07 it's the typecaster not noticing that is the bug here 17:41:12 ais523, got any trace support then? 17:41:20 not for the typecaster, probably I should 17:41:21 dumping parse tree or whatever 17:41:34 I can dump parse tree, but annoyingly the dump doesn't list data types 17:41:51 ais523, does that information exist at the time of the dump? 17:41:53 also, I gave up trying to read C-INTERCAL parse tree dumps years ago 17:41:55 and no, it doesn't 17:41:59 ah 17:42:00 well 17:42:02 type inference is done later 17:42:14 also why did you give up+ 17:42:15 ? 17:42:25 doesn't OIL operate on those trees anyway I thought? 17:42:26 because they're unreadable 17:42:34 OIL is a readable version of the same thing 17:42:51 would dumping it to oil be impossible? 17:42:53 I have a command to translate an expression parse tree into OIL 17:42:58 but that doesn't contain data types either 17:43:04 hmm... maybe I should fix it so it does 17:44:19 ais523, hm a good idea for a name for a tool related to OIL would be CO2 or something such 17:44:40 why? 17:44:52 by the way, I'm working on a new INTERCAL-related tool atm 17:45:15 it's called ickopter, and it's a generic wrapper script that can convert command-line options from any INTERCAL compiler I know of to any other 17:45:15 ais523, considering what cars emit when they console certain parts of the raw oil 17:45:20 ah, ok 17:45:25 after those part have been separated 17:45:39 ais523, I thought that would be a pretty clear connection? 17:45:47 also it can work out the options from the file extension (like CLC-INTERCAL does), or from the modification time (which nothing does atm but something ought to) 17:45:55 AnMaster: not all that obvious, really 17:47:12 ais523, hm, the environment and global warming have been probably been the topic that have grown most in media during the last 1-2 years or so 17:47:15 at least in Sweden 17:47:32 even the oil=petrol connection isn't really obvious to someone British 17:47:38 ais523, err why not? 17:47:42 and then, you have to consider what happens when you set it on fire 17:47:45 ais523: somehow i think that utility needs a "hell" in front 17:47:48 raw oil is used to make petrol 17:47:50 AnMaster: oil is a raw material for petrols 17:47:59 ais523, yes exactly 17:48:02 how isn't that clear? 17:48:02 but that doesn't make them obviously connected 17:48:07 ais523, hm 17:48:12 it would be like calling a program to operate on a tree structure PENCIL 17:48:24 ais523, makes perfect sense :) 17:48:33 took about 3 seconds or so 17:48:46 it's about as convoluted as Cockney rhyming slang, which generally has to be explained for people to understand it 17:49:12 err, of course wooden pencils are made from wood 17:49:24 actually, I was referring to the paper on which the pencils wrote 17:49:28 which is made from trees 17:49:42 ais523, ah ok, both ways work 17:49:47 that is beautifully convoluted 17:49:49 so it's a double-pun 17:49:53 I have in front of me two pencils 17:49:55 such a pity that both puns are really bad 17:49:56 one is a mechanical one 17:50:08 the other is a traditional wood-encased one 17:50:16 that you use a pencil sharpener for 17:50:45 ais523, anyway I don't think the connection is very far fetched at all 17:50:55 no, but it's still ridiculous 17:51:05 also I got a scheme pun for whenever scheme is on the topic, that will even make oerjan's puns seem good 17:51:26 however I won't tell what it is until I find some place to fit it in the discussion :P 17:51:30 oerjan's puns are good 17:51:40 AnMaster: so you're plotting to scheme? 17:51:40 ais523, well this is kind of good and horrible at the same time 17:51:46 oerjan, not that one 17:51:50 but that was good too :) 17:52:26 damn, the pun would have fitted perfectly as a response to oerjan 17:52:28 oh werll 17:52:28 well, I think Guile was named for that pun too 17:52:29 well* 17:52:48 * AnMaster waits for the next chanse 17:52:50 chance* 17:54:08 what does common lisp use for true and false btw? I think I heard mentioned that false was the empty list/NIL? 17:54:10 or? 17:54:18 T and NIL 17:54:25 t and nil 17:54:29 in lowercase IIRC 17:54:33 hm 17:54:44 is it case sensitive? 17:54:51 not sure 17:55:00 maybe it depends on the implementation, there are too many CL implementations 17:55:05 * oerjan didn't think so 17:55:14 for scheme: as far as I understood it, r5rs is case insensitive, but r6rs is case sensitive? 17:55:45 is that your bad pun? 17:55:50 no 17:55:52 if so, I don't get it at all 17:56:14 ais523, well you will spot the pun when you see it ;P 17:56:30 ah, so better than Cockney rhyming slang then 17:56:37 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:57:22 ais523, hm that slang must be horrible 17:57:26 any example? 17:57:26 yep 17:57:35 yes, "apples" instead of "chairs" 17:57:42 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:57:43 because "apples and pears" go together 17:57:47 and "pears" rhymes with "chairs" 17:57:50 err 17:57:51 they're all like that 17:58:04 it messes with your loaf 17:58:08 ais523, pears nad chairs doesn't rhyme in the English I speak at least? 17:58:09 instead of saying X, you say something associated with something that rhymes with X 17:58:17 and* 17:58:23 AnMaster: they do in British English, especially if you use a Cockney accent 17:58:28 ais523, hm 17:58:40 ais523, I try to speak Oxford English hm... 17:58:54 another example is "plates" = "feet" 17:59:09 err... no I don't get that one 17:59:15 nor did I get oerjan's joke above 17:59:17 "plates of meat" is the clue you need 17:59:17 about loaf 17:59:27 and oerjan's isn't a joke, it's just more Cockney rhyming slang 17:59:31 on "loaf of bread" in this case 17:59:35 ais523, plates of meat would mean a plate with some meat on it? 17:59:38 you really have to learn them, they're basically impossible to guess 17:59:38 AnMaster: yes 17:59:39 or is it some idiom? 17:59:45 no, not really an idiom 17:59:49 ah meat feet. 17:59:50 right 17:59:50 thus basically impossible to guess in the first place 18:00:02 bread and head? 18:00:05 yes 18:00:08 gah that is terrible 18:00:22 if they just said the word that rhymed, it wouldn't be too bad as at least you'd have a chance to guess 18:00:33 but something associated with a word that rhymes, you have basically no chance 18:00:37 ais523, so it is a social group marker? 18:00:41 yes, pretty much 18:00:44 quite common in London 18:00:48 at least it used to be 18:00:54 except I don't understand how they can share it in the first place 18:01:01 neither do I 18:01:05 * oerjan read that it was invented to fool the police spies 18:01:08 generally speaking you have to have a parent explain 18:01:32 ais523, no sane parent should teach that 18:01:36 oerjan: at least that makes some kind of sense 18:01:46 * AnMaster agrees 18:01:49 AnMaster: well, it's a useful skill to figure out wtf Londoners are talking about 18:02:04 bbiab food 18:07:37 also the scheme joke will only work in a context where it is clear that the stuff discussed is about scheme 18:07:50 maybe "generic functional languages" would work too 18:08:19 also I think ehird would agree on using it on r6rs 18:08:30 * AnMaster likes leaving cryptic clues 18:09:10 actually, it would work in any lisp context, not just scheme 18:09:23 well i sure hope it's a functional pun 18:09:32 oerjan, was that a pun? 18:09:36 * AnMaster is unsure 18:09:40 of course 18:09:52 well I still can't spot it 18:09:52 so 18:10:03 * AnMaster runs over oerjan with a car for making such a bad pun 18:10:05 functional has an ordinary meaning 18:10:11 (and that was the pun) 18:10:12 AnMaster: "functional" = "working" in everyday English 18:10:40 * AnMaster wonders if anyone will spot it 18:10:47 I am fully functional 18:10:49 * oerjan spotted a car 18:10:53 And trained in many techniques 18:10:55 I did once you pointed it out 18:11:02 ais523, bad wasn't it? ;P 18:11:11 yes, very 18:11:28 :) 18:11:35 back 18:12:05 hm 18:12:13 (define bicycle car) 18:12:44 hmm... Lisp should have all atoms matching ^c[ad]+r$ as builtins 18:12:49 ais523, I suspect it may actually be possible to make some good jokes on the car theme 18:13:06 yes, probably 18:13:07 ais523, having all of an infinite set would to too much haskellish ;P 18:13:11 that is not one of them though 18:13:12 AnMaster: well you need a car to get ahead 18:13:24 oerjan: ok, that one's better 18:13:26 heh yes 18:13:56 and that was a combined scheme/haskell pun, even 18:14:06 oerjan, didn't spot the haskell part? 18:14:29 or wait 18:14:31 oerjan: I wouldn't call it haskell 18:14:35 just list terminology in general 18:14:38 ahead was a reference to the list head 18:14:41 clearly 18:14:54 a terminology used in erlang too for lisp-style lists 18:14:57 head and tail 18:15:06 in haskell head is the function name 18:15:22 You will often see [H|T] as a pattern matching the head and tail of a list in erlang 18:15:39 Prolog calls them head and tail too 18:15:47 head for the first element, tail for the rest of the list 18:15:50 so not very haskellish in fact 18:15:51 and that's also [H|T] 18:16:38 ais523, also I recently found out some more stuff about the prolog and erlang's relation to each other 18:16:42 you may be interested 18:17:26 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/5tVOcH94.html 18:17:57 and some bits of syntax, but the actual programming is very different as far as I understood prolog 18:19:00 ais523, also: http://rafb.net/p/0cHkQ174.html 18:19:11 ah, looks interesting 18:19:17 and yes, I expect programming would be quite different 18:19:34 ais523, in fact that weird stuff like :- in the first paste, is not valid Erlang 18:19:38 whatever it is I don't know 18:19:52 I would guess prolog from the context 18:19:56 :- is one of the most common keywords in Prolog 18:20:14 ais523, looks like an operator to me, but ok 18:20:17 and what does it do? 18:20:19 probably third after , and . 18:20:30 AnMaster: it translates as 'if', but it doesn't really work the same way as if in other languages 18:20:47 it means that whatever's to the left of :- is only true some of the time, and what's to the right describes when 18:21:01 ais523, sounds like the perl variant? 18:21:11 die if x == y 18:21:13 or whatever it was 18:21:15 yes, it's a bit like Perl if 18:21:24 ais523, ok so it differs from that too?! 18:21:35 yes 18:21:48 it's basically one the fundamental ideas of Prolog which aren't in other languages 18:21:54 it's a bit like function definition 18:22:08 think about it this way: in C, you can define a function 18:22:08 ais523, ah it declares a fact is true when foo, doesn't execute code when foo? 18:22:18 or maybe not that either 18:22:19 well, except the condition is the code often 18:22:28 in C, if you define a function more than once, that's a link error 18:22:38 ais523, unless it is a common symbol 18:22:46 or various other linker stuff 18:22:47 well, yes, but that's missing the point here 18:22:52 right 18:22:59 in Prolog, :- sort-of defines a function 18:23:05 but you can and usually do give more than one definition 18:23:19 and the function succeeds if the code to the right of the :- does not fail 18:23:21 ais523, you mean like different entry points matching different conditions? 18:23:24 yes 18:23:31 except you can have different entry points matching the same conditions too 18:23:44 and the compiler tries them until one of them works 18:23:46 foo(1) -> {ok, 1}; 18:23:55 foo(2) -> {error, 2}. 18:24:05 that is erlang code 18:24:15 for two different entry points for the same function 18:24:23 that would basically work in Prolog too, but it wouldn't need :- because the function would have no code 18:24:31 foo(1, pair(ok,1)). 18:24:33 ais523, well you could have code too 18:24:35 foo(2, pair(error,2)). 18:24:39 just an example 18:24:43 (where pair is a data type you define yourself 18:24:44 ) 18:24:56 ais523, efunge uses pattern matching in function clause a lot 18:25:01 so does Prolog 18:25:01 in fact most erlang code does 18:25:11 it can use pattern matching for the return value too, though, because that's just an argument 18:25:25 in fact most Prolog functions can be called backwards, you give them the return value and they return the arguments you need 18:25:42 ais523, I think one function have something like 50 or so different entry points in efunge 18:25:42 let me show you a famous example of Prolog code, if I can remember it: 18:25:48 member(X, [X|_]). 18:25:50 it is the main process_instruction 18:26:09 member(X, [_|T]) :- member(X, T). 18:26:34 ais523, well that wouldn't work in erlang 18:26:40 probably not 18:26:44 since you got all "match any" in all cases 18:26:48 it's a very Prolog-style function 18:26:54 X and T being variable names in erlang 18:27:00 they are in Prolog too 18:27:14 ais523, also see line 72-397 in http://bzr.kuonet.org/efunge/trunk/annotate/113?file_id=finterpreter.erl-20080914111420-p21e8gml3lurds4a-1 18:27:15 basically, it tells whether its first arg is a member of its second arg 18:27:23 so member(2,[1,2,3,4,5]) succeeds 18:27:27 and member(6,[1,2,3,4,5]) fails 18:27:46 ais523, ah wait that could work 18:27:47 hm 18:27:47 however, more interestingly, member(X,[1,2,3,4,5]) returns up to 5 times with X set to each of the numbers 1 to 5 18:27:58 and you can even do member(1,List) 18:28:05 but would beed to be rewritten a bit 18:28:06 that will return [1,_] the first time 18:28:10 like having a body for the first clause 18:28:13 and so on 18:28:16 sorry, [1|_] 18:28:22 if that fails, it'll try [_,1|_] 18:28:26 then [_,_,1|_] 18:28:27 and so on 18:28:41 however, more interestingly, member(X,[1,2,3,4,5]) returns up to 5 times with X set to each of the numbers 1 to 5 18:28:47 now that wouldn't happen in erlang 18:28:48 also 18:28:54 is that like COME FROM? 18:28:58 no 18:29:00 since you seem to need threads there 18:29:00 it's backtracking 18:29:05 ah right 18:29:06 it does one at a time 18:29:09 forgot that thing 18:29:15 e.g. member(X,[1,2,3,4,5]), X>3 18:29:24 will succeed up to twice before failing 18:29:28 with X=4 and X=5 18:29:47 would be it correct to call prolog an out-of-order language? 18:29:51 yes, sort of 18:29:58 except for practical reasons some out-of-orderings don't work 18:30:00 for both meanings? 18:30:01 ;P 18:30:15 but member(X,[1,2,3,4,5]),member(X,[3,6,9]) works, for instance 18:30:19 and binds X to 3 18:30:25 bah... you didn't get that joke 18:30:26 it seems 18:30:27 (or fails if X was already bound to something that wasn't 3) 18:30:31 and yes, I did 18:30:32 eventually 18:30:38 oh that bad then 18:31:00 thinking in Prolog is really strange 18:31:06 it's one of the only langs of its type 18:31:08 ais523, anyway did you look at the link I pasted? 18:31:10 yes 18:31:38 normally 1-5 entry points or so, probably 1-3 18:31:44 the syntax at the end is valid Prolog, but bad style 18:31:49 tail recursive functions tend to have 2 at least 18:31:53 unless they loop forever 18:31:56 like a main loop 18:32:00 and Prolog programs can have millions of entry points to a function 18:32:06 normally when the function is being used as a database 18:32:08 the syntax at the end is valid Prolog, but bad style ?? 18:32:15 AnMaster: it declares 3 variables 18:32:17 and doesn't use them 18:32:26 ais523, see the _ in front? 18:32:32 no_backtracking_no_insert_delete_duality_magic(_,_,_) :- moo. 18:32:35 would be better syntax 18:32:49 ais523, no, not that link... 18:32:54 ah, which link? 18:33:02 ais523, also see line 72-397 in http://bzr.kuonet.org/efunge/trunk/annotate/113?file_id=finterpreter.erl-20080914111420-p21e8gml3lurds4a-1 18:33:11 that one 18:33:59 yes, that sort of thing would be common in Prolog too, for the same reasons 18:34:01 hm that url is illogical, but since I renamed the file I guess it makes sense 18:34:06 if you were writing it imperativish 18:34:10 ais523, what bit of it? 18:34:15 process_instruction() is huge 18:34:26 which is quite uncommon in erlang 18:34:30 using an argument to a predicate to make what's effectively a switch statement 18:34:44 ofc, Prolog would do it the other way round, too 18:34:54 the other way around? 18:34:57 unswitch? 18:35:01 sounds like something for intercal... 18:35:02 you could give it the input and output fungespace 18:35:12 and it would work out what command it needed to run to go from one to the other 18:35:30 like a switch statement, except you don't tell it the control variable and it figures out what it is for you 18:35:38 ais523, ah no, fungespace isn't stored as single assignment in efunge because the performance got so terrible from that, it is stored using something called an ets table 18:35:56 basically I didn't want to wait several minutes for mycology to finish 18:35:57 well, can you pass it as an argument to a function or predicate or whatever Erlang calls it? 18:36:10 ais523, the fungespace there is just a handle 18:36:17 ah, in that case it would work just fin 18:36:19 *fine 18:36:23 you'd just give it input and output handles 18:36:36 ais523, ets tables are implemented in the C parts of erlang 18:36:45 which both had a funge-space already in them 18:37:00 hmm... in Prolog you'd probably store funge-space with self-modifying code 18:37:03 and are modify in place, meant for database backend for mneisa (a database in erlang) 18:37:10 to do it modify-in-place 18:37:11 and for other cases when speed gets too slow 18:37:16 that's how databases and such are done 18:37:30 it is basically a non-single assignment hash table 18:37:37 -!- Slereah_ has quit (No route to host). 18:37:42 that's what a Prolog database is too 18:37:52 it's a predicate which you can modify 18:37:52 and which doesn't allow :- 18:37:54 which comes to the same thing 18:38:02 oh, and only constants in the head 18:38:02 ais523, well is it implemented in prolog or internally in the language runtime system? 18:38:09 depends on the implementation 18:38:17 I know of one which implements it in the runtime 18:38:41 but normally they aren't special-cased by the interp, they're just a special case of things you could do anyway 18:38:42 ais523, also it store erlang tuples. such as {key,value}, where value can be any erlang term, and so can key 18:38:49 wait, you cannot modify predicates with clauses containing :- ? 18:38:54 oerjan: yes you can 18:39:00 in general 18:39:12 if you don't though some implementations are faster 18:39:19 if you tell them in advance that you don't plan to 18:39:23 ah 18:39:31 ais523, anyway the point of them in erlang is that they are high performance for when everything else fails, thus implemented in the C parts of erlang 18:40:25 ais523, so the FungeSpace thing passed around is just an integer I think 18:40:41 yes, well in Prolog if you wanted to do it efficiently 18:40:44 internal representation of such a handle "may change without notice" 18:40:47 you wouldn't pass around anything 18:40:49 according to man page 18:40:55 you'd have a funge_space predicate 18:40:57 but debugger seems to indicate it is indeed an integer 18:41:05 and modify it dynamically to allow for changes in the program 18:41:14 ais523, hm that would require knowing what number the handle ends up as at compile time? 18:41:24 which simply wouldn't work in erlang 18:41:25 no, you don't get it 18:41:27 there wouldn't be a handle 18:41:31 just part of your code 18:41:34 which was self-modifying 18:41:36 hm 18:41:40 ais523, ah erlang doesn't have that 18:41:59 also I think that sounds great for writing a befunge interpreter 18:42:04 do it in a self modifying language! 18:42:12 you know how you can write a ROM in C, effectively, using switch(location) {case 0: return 'H'; case 1: return 'e'; case 2: return 'l' ... 18:42:23 Prolog databases are like that, but self-modifying 18:42:27 ais523, err what? 18:42:34 ROM as in read only memory? 18:42:37 yes 18:42:40 in the code 18:42:46 I would use const 18:42:49 well, yes 18:42:55 but imagine you're on an embedded systen 18:42:58 *system 18:43:01 which has lots of ROM but hardly any RAM 18:43:10 that would be a sensible way to store a string, if the ROM isn't addressable 18:43:10 like static const int myrom[] = { 'a', 'b' } 18:43:13 or such 18:43:27 ais523, hm... 18:43:35 "if the ROM isn't addressable" indeed 18:43:46 AnMaster: it happens 18:43:50 also about using _ 18:43:51 in architectures with separate data and code 18:43:54 in erlang it is bad style 18:43:59 better prefix a variable with _ 18:44:12 erlang _ is almost certainly based on Prolog _ 18:44:22 which is just an anonymous variable which is different each time you use it 18:44:27 to mean "this data will be discarded" 18:44:28 that tells compiler you know you don't want to use it, so it shouldn't warn, And the compiler will optimise away unused variables anyway. 18:44:29 ais523, ^ 18:44:39 but it is still easy to see what it is for 18:44:41 yes 18:44:42 unlike a plain _ 18:44:48 Prolog came first 18:44:49 _FungeSpace tells so much more 18:44:53 and they didn't think of having more than one sort of _ 18:44:55 in case you later want to use it 18:44:59 and discarded 18:45:22 ais523, does prolog have the _ as prefix for rest of variable too? 18:45:31 as I described just above 18:45:35 _ by itself is an anon variable 18:45:42 _ followed by anything else is implementation-reserved, IIRC 18:46:02 when you debug Prolog code the implementation will print out free variables as _0 and _1 or whatever 18:46:10 consider: 18:46:15 using the same number to show that two variables have the same value, but the value isn't known yet 18:46:16 iterate(_Count, _, dead, Retval, _) -> 18:46:22 now you want to change it 18:46:38 but you need to dig to find what those two _ represents 18:46:39 yes, I understand 18:46:41 it isn't clear 18:46:43 iterate(_Count, _Instr, dead, Retval, _Space) -> 18:46:44 however 18:46:45 is clear 18:46:50 -!- slereah has joined. 18:46:55 in fact count too would be _ 18:46:59 good Prolog style involves putting all the clauses for one predicate together 18:47:00 then it is just too confusing 18:47:08 so you can tell easily enough just by looking at the other cases 18:47:09 ais523, so does erlang 18:47:23 ais523, but maybe you implement a function that conforms to some interface 18:47:26 yes 18:47:27 and you pass it as a reference 18:47:29 but that's only a stop-gap really 18:47:32 somewhat like C function pointers 18:47:35 what if you want to put a constant in the head 18:47:35 like 18:47:45 iterate(1, _, dead, Retval, _) 18:47:51 how to know that the 1 refers to a count? 18:48:08 very true point 18:48:18 but you could do 18:48:26 iterate(1 = Count, _, dead, Retval, _) 18:48:28 I think 18:48:32 or even 18:48:35 iterate(1 = _Count, _, dead, Retval, _) 18:48:52 well, you may as well just use inline comments then 18:48:57 I think they use /* */ for that nowadays 18:49:06 although Prolog comments were traditionally % to end of line, IIRC 18:49:09 erlang use %% 18:49:14 at the start of the line 18:49:28 actually it is % 18:49:46 but %% and %%% is used in different places for human readability reasons 18:49:55 and auto-indention purposes 18:50:17 ais523, I think somewhat like 80% or more of #erlang use emacs to edit their erlang code 18:50:22 http://rafb.net/p/j0izSW37.html 18:50:25 anyway 18:51:03 it's so weird seeing code that vaguely resembles Prolog, but that has implicit return values 18:51:18 implicit? 18:51:28 AnMaster: in Prolog things don't have return values 18:51:35 you use pass-by-trail in the argument list 18:51:36 ais523, the return value is the value of the last expression in the block 18:51:40 yes, exactly 18:51:41 everything have a return value 18:51:55 even stuff that wouldn't have return values in scheme got return values here 18:51:57 in Prolog, you'd do something like add(A,B,ReturnValue) :- ReturnValue is A+B. 18:52:02 the ReturnValue is explicit here 18:52:06 Everything returns a value in Scheme. 18:52:23 ais523, ok that sounds like how I wrote return string in envbot because $() is so slow in bash :P 18:52:27 I passed a parameter name 18:52:29 Prolog's rule is nice and simple, then: nothing obviously returns a value 18:52:36 no 18:52:37 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:52:38 all return values are done via arguments 18:52:38 and used printf -v "$1" '%s' "foo" 18:52:39 functions return one value 18:52:40 pass or fail 18:52:40 or whatever 18:52:41 :P 18:52:52 ehird: except they never return fail 18:53:01 ais523: True. 18:53:03 also, if you're talking like that, cut-fail is another possibility 18:53:10 Everything returns a value in Scheme. <-- exactly 18:53:13 that was my point 18:53:22 you fail to understand humor obviously... 18:53:24 cuts are great 18:53:24 even stuff that wouldn't have return values in scheme got return values here 18:53:30 is a nonseqitur 18:53:31 you spend ages trying to learn Prolog 18:53:37 and eventually you 'get it' 18:53:42 also it's *has 18:53:49 and then you come across cuts, which completely mess up everything you learnt 18:53:50 doesn't scheme have multiple return values, or was that CL? 18:53:56 yes, it does 18:53:58 so does cl 18:54:06 ehird, yes I agree I said that. And that was my point 18:54:12 some implementations have dynamic cuts too 18:54:12 since everything have a return value in scheme 18:54:19 *has 18:54:30 right 18:54:35 which are a bit like longjmp in C, given the dread Prolog programmers generally hold them in 18:54:45 except they're useful slightly more often 18:54:53 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 18:55:10 ais523, so it is considered worse than goto in C? 18:55:22 cut is a bit like goto in C 18:55:27 except that it's used a lot more often 18:55:36 it's something that's jarring to Prolog programmers 18:55:36 hm 18:55:40 but has no real alternatives 18:55:44 heh 18:55:47 hmm... think of it more like GOTO in Basic 18:56:00 except a BASIC in which you don't actually need to use gotos 18:56:07 because you have functions and ifs and those are enough in theory 18:56:10 ais523, well I don't know any basic except "10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD" 20 GOTO 10" 18:56:15 with a newline obviously 18:56:18 AnMaster: that's about it 18:56:22 I never ever coded in basic 18:56:27 yes, that is very typical BASIC 18:56:35 normally there's some sort of IF statement 18:56:35 ais523, I think it is the classical basic 18:56:46 often it's as simple as IF A=2+3 THEN 10, though 18:56:54 but it doesn't say anything about the language really, apart from that it lacks labels other than line numbers 18:56:55 and loops 18:57:24 AnMaster: the trick to BASIC is that there is no more than that 18:57:37 ais523, well more recent basic seem to have it? 18:57:40 AnMaster: yes 18:57:44 and no I don't consider VB then 18:57:56 even QBasic has more control flow stuff than traditional BASIC 18:58:05 can't say I know it either 18:58:26 AnMaster: it was Microsoft's killer app for MS-DOS, I think, originally 18:58:30 I have seen some VB or maybe VBA, and about the only thing I remember is "Dim foo As" or something like that 18:58:38 which explains how old it is to some extent 18:58:49 incidentally, it's also one of the platforms I learnt programming on 18:58:52 although it's a bad one to choose 18:58:57 ais523, basic? 18:59:03 QBasic in particular 18:59:10 pretty basic choice 18:59:24 well, BASIC was invented for beginners in the first place 18:59:28 that's what the B in BASIC stands for 18:59:32 AnMaster: gotcha 18:59:36 "Beginner's All-Symbolic Instruction Code" 18:59:40 yeah that is why basic is basic. 18:59:42 oerjan, hm? 18:59:51 * oerjan thought he saw a pun 18:59:56 oerjan, there was one yes 18:59:59 yes, I spotted it too 19:00:06 I just didn't understand why you said "gotcha" as a response 19:00:29 it wasn 19:00:32 anyway it is easy to make basic jokes based on basic 19:00:37 't bad enough for a groan 19:00:49 oerjan, what one? the last? 19:01:06 and yeah I never claimed to make *high quality* jokes 19:01:19 pretty basic choice 19:01:29 oerjan, so what about " anyway it is easy to make basic jokes based on basic" 19:01:38 or was that one worse? 19:02:14 ais523, oh and I learned the first steps of programming in an even worse environment 19:02:24 I bet you can't guess, unless I told you before I forgot it 19:02:25 too much redundancy i feel 19:02:33 no, you didn't 19:02:37 oerjan, I fear you are basically correct there. 19:02:41 ais523, Apple Script 19:02:45 on Mac OS 7 19:03:29 ais523, just an example: it allows an optional "the" in many places to make the code look more like English 19:03:38 AnMaster: sounds like INTERCAL 19:03:53 and use "of" somewhat like -> but more like <- actually, since you state it in the other order 19:04:21 set myvariable to the first character of the string "hello world" 19:04:25 ais523, that may be valid apple script 19:04:27 not sure 19:04:39 "first character" may not be a valid selector for a string 19:04:49 and you may not ned "the string" there 19:04:58 it was ages ago I last coded in that horrible language 19:05:10 ais523, oh also it can be recorded 19:05:16 wow, very COBOLly 19:05:18 -!- atrapado has joined. 19:05:21 since it was intended to script applications in 19:05:24 like you press record 19:05:36 then do some task, like selecting a file, and double clicking 19:05:39 then that would be recorded 19:06:00 ais523, also wikipedia says: 19:06:02 say "Hello World!" 19:06:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleScript 19:06:19 tell application "Microsoft Word" 19:06:19 quit 19:06:19 end tell 19:06:21 is the same as 19:06:21 AnMaster: ehird's hi ais523 script is written in AppleScript, IIRC 19:06:24 tell application "Microsoft Word" to quit 19:06:28 -!- ais523 has left (?). 19:06:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:06:29 hi ais523 19:06:33 ehird, it is? 19:06:39 ugh 19:06:47 and yeah you should paste it 19:07:06 ais523, well his irc client would provide the needed interface to use it from apple script I guess 19:07:08 colloquy's scripts are in applescript 19:07:08 well, AppleScript is better than Windows 3.1 Recorder 19:07:08 so yes 19:07:13 many mac os apps do 19:07:13 which I tried using for a while and eventually gave up 19:07:23 ehird care to pastebin? 19:07:24 exactly, i hate applescript but its convenient 19:07:32 AnMaster: it's only like 4 lines, I can probably paste it here 19:07:33 it recorded the location of mouse clicks on the screen, and replayed them 19:07:37 ehird, ok :) 19:07:41 didn't know how long it was 19:07:59 ais523, I think functions were done with an "on" clause 19:08:04 no 19:08:06 on is for events 19:08:10 ehird, ah ok 19:08:10 using terms from application "Colloquy" 19:08:10 on member joined m in room 19:08:10 if m's name starts with "ais523" then 19:08:11 tell room to send message "hi " & m's name 19:08:11 end if 19:08:11 end member joined 19:08:13 end using terms from 19:08:16 with..indentation 19:08:19 7 lines 19:08:19 :P 19:08:20 "using terms from application"? 19:08:24 AnMaster: shrug 19:08:26 also, the indentation came through at this end 19:08:28 as italics 19:08:29 that one must be new since OS 7 19:08:30 :P 19:08:31 it imports all the stuff in Colloquy's namespace 19:08:32 it always does for some reason 19:08:36 like "member", "room"... 19:08:41 lines are in italic if they start with an odd number of tabs 19:08:45 I did see one-char wide tabs here ehird 19:08:48 if that is what you meant 19:08:51 kay 19:09:07 iirc irssi got an issue with literal tabs 19:09:24 pixel 7 of row 3 of TIFF image "my bitmap" 19:09:25 hm 19:09:28 *shudder* 19:10:18 anyway last I coded in apple script must have been something like 7 years ago 19:10:22 around when I was 10 or so 19:10:29 actually more 19:10:32 11 years then 19:10:44 which ends up at around 10-11 years old yeah 19:10:59 um 19:11:04 ehird, oh btw iirc the apple script stuff allows using other languages than apple script 19:11:05 11 years ago was before os x was released 19:11:06 :p 19:11:10 and no it doesn't 19:11:12 ehird, yes I said so 19:11:15 ehird, OS 7 19:11:19 was what I used 19:11:19 oh 19:11:21 it had applescript? 19:11:23 weird beans 19:11:24 ehird, it did 19:11:37 ehird, with the script editor that could record 19:11:50 ehird, or at least 7.5.1 or so did 19:12:34 ehird, also it allows different languages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleScript#Open_Scripting_Architecture 19:12:38 :P 19:12:42 I knew I was right there 19:16:25 ais523, so what do you think of AppleScript syntax? 19:16:35 it's very COBOLly 19:16:39 but in lowercase rather than caps 19:17:08 oh I think it got more possible ways to say something than perl at least in some cases 19:17:30 AnMaster: Perl has an infinite number of ways to say things, you can get libraries to use more 19:17:34 most of them are in ACME of course 19:17:57 ACME? 19:18:28 AnMaster: part of CPAN 19:18:33 ah 19:18:34 for things that aren't particularly serious 19:18:37 like Brainfuck interps 19:18:42 hm ok 19:18:56 which was first: CPAN, CTAN, CEAN? 19:18:59 I guess CPAN 19:19:03 or maybe CTAN 19:19:35 well, CUAN almost certainly came later 19:19:37 and seems to be dead atm 19:19:43 "The Perl archive, CPAN, is based on the CTAN model. 19:19:43 CUAN was? 19:19:47 Unlambda 19:19:50 ah so CTAN is older 19:19:55 interesting 19:20:03 well Tex is old, so not strange 19:20:07 but how old is perl? 19:20:58 "CTAN was built in 1992 ... 19:21:16 hm and cpan? 19:21:17 perl 1989 19:21:24 hm that new 19:21:28 thought it was older 19:21:29 cpan 1995(?) 19:21:41 anyway that means perl is about as old as I am. hm 19:22:02 "Perl was originally developed by Larry Wall, a linguist working as a systems administrator for NASA, in 1987, 19:22:11 1987, older then 19:22:13 oh well 19:23:38 hmm... that's the year I was born 19:23:46 I wonder when CRAN was founded... the R language itself seems to have started around 1997, so obviously later than CTAN/CPAN. 19:23:47 I wonder which is older, Perl or me? 19:24:37 CRAN is for? 19:24:38 ais523: Maybe you have the same birthday. How awesome would that be? 19:24:45 it would be pretty awesome 19:24:46 AnMaster: R scripts, obviously. 19:24:56 fizzie, hm what paradigm is R now again? 19:25:02 R is GNU S. 19:25:09 So, statistics. 19:25:09 "Larry Wall began work on Perl in 1987, while working as a programmer at Unisys,[6] and released version 1.0 to the comp.sources.misc newsgroup on December 18, 1987. 19:25:13 also I would find having the same birthday as perl embarrassing 19:25:31 why? 19:25:44 lets just say I'm no big perl fan :P 19:26:44 also I think apple script may have the shortest audio hello world program of any language 19:26:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleScript#Hello_World.21 19:26:56 that actually *says* hello world 19:27:07 displaying it would be longer 19:27:19 something like creating a dialog, at least under OS 7 19:27:30 no I don't remember syntaxz 19:27:32 syntax* 19:27:43 ah, pity, gprolog doesn't have dynamic cuts 19:27:49 but I think they can be written in terms of throw and catch 19:28:19 ais523, hm try in erlang got a return value btw 19:28:30 as in try ... catch ... end 19:28:53 it is either that of the relevant catch case, or that of the last statement in the try block 19:28:56 AnMaster: well it doesn't in Prolog for obvious reasons, it's trivial to get a value out of it using unification though 19:28:59 actually try got weird syntax 19:30:00 try of mymatch -> ...; myothermatch -> ... catch throw:mycustomexception -> ...; error:badarith -> "Most likely division by zero of fp exception" end 19:30:14 oh and the last clause must _not_ end in ; 19:30:16 that is no typo 19:30:41 adding a ; to the last clause in a if, case, try, catch or other such block is a syntax error 19:30:53 that is actually rather irritating 19:31:07 yes 19:31:15 well it would be in Prolog too, for the related constructs 19:31:21 and results in silly syntax like writing ; at the front 19:31:22 like: 19:31:25 you never do it by mistake though because you always put a full stop there instead 19:31:29 case myfunc() of 19:31:33 foo -> ... 19:31:38 ; bar -> ... 19:31:41 and so on 19:31:50 yes some people do that seriously 19:32:16 also in erlang you get nothing there, full stop only at end of the last function clause 19:32:18 well, Prolog works well due to having basically no control flow constructs 19:32:24 :- , ; ! 19:32:28 ; at end of other clauses 19:32:29 and . for the end of a predicate 19:32:33 *clause 19:32:34 that's it. 19:32:39 and , between expressions in a single block 19:33:24 however the use of .,; neatly sidesteps two issues at once 19:33:42 1) {} not matching indention, this is the reason python fans say their block style is better 19:34:10 2) indention ending up wrong when moving code around in a function, this is the reason C fans use for why python style blocks are bad 19:34:23 yes, Prolog sidesteps the issues like that too 19:34:27 also Prolog clauses tend to be short 19:34:32 so often they don't need indentation at all 19:34:35 in erlang indention doesn't matter, nor do you have { that could match the wrong } 19:34:55 ais523, well not indenting is considering bad coding style in erlang 19:35:09 yes, it would be 19:35:15 in Prolog indenting is common 19:35:23 but only if you write something more than one line long 19:35:25 often, you don't 19:35:43 well I do sometimes put match and code on same line 19:35:50 but only if all the clauses are short 19:36:01 since mixing newline + indention and same line is hard to read 19:36:09 yes 19:36:13 normally all the clauses are short though 19:36:23 also, I'm rather partial to Haskell-style indentation for that sort of thing 19:36:30 you don't newline after the :- 19:36:37 and the next line is indented to after the :- 19:36:46 ais523, I think erlang style base sense apart from the ; before an end 19:36:54 case, if and so on are all terminated by end 19:36:57 well try isn't 19:37:00 it is terminated by case 19:37:01 err 19:37:03 by catch* 19:37:10 which is then terminated by end 19:37:21 also you can have begin 19:38:02 mostly used for funs (like lambda in scheme) 19:38:29 (well not totally, since you don't have it for defining "normal" functions) 19:38:51 (except the compiler actually use that for them too internally, and then converts it back) 19:38:52 -!- p3k has joined. 19:39:53 * AnMaster pokes ais523 19:39:58 Hey, bit-rot hasn't broken my Prolog Scheme! 19:40:00 ?- plscheme. 19:40:00 |: (+ 1 (call/cc (lambda (k) (+ 2 (k 3))))) 19:40:00 4 19:40:07 All that Prolog talk made me test it. 19:40:22 * AnMaster hates call/cc 19:40:27 fizzie: you wrote that? 19:40:27 gives me a headache 19:40:31 That's terrifying beyond measure. 19:40:34 so mind explaining that code 19:40:38 ais523: For the "logic programming" project-work. 19:40:44 since I basically fail as soon as call/cc is involved 19:40:47 ais523: It's written in continuation-passing style Prolog. :p 19:40:58 fizzie, ^ 19:40:58 actually, Prolog uses CPS a lot more than other langs 19:41:07 it's the only way to maintain loop counters and such sometimes 19:41:43 ais523, how does a program coded in prolog compare in speed to one written in scheme? 19:41:47 or one written in C? 19:41:53 Prolog is slow if not optimised 19:42:00 there are many optimisers of different qualities around 19:42:02 AnMaster: The call/cc is just giving (+ 1 []) as the continuation (named k), which is then called (k 3) to get (+ 1 3); the (+ 2 ...) part is forgotten. 19:42:23 fizzie, ok 19:43:11 call/cc is kind of like: the ( ) representing sacks in each other, call/cc turns them inside out 19:43:16 at least that is how it feels 19:43:28 probably make no sense 19:43:38 strange analogy, but I sort of see what you're getting at 19:43:56 the Underlambda definition of making a continuation might help, but probably doesn't 19:44:00 really? that is more than what I did 10 seconds after I said it 19:44:24 #XCx| => X(X(x))x 19:44:33 ofc that makes no sense if you don't understand Underlambda, probably 19:44:36 ais523, mind telling me what language that is? 19:44:39 ah ok 19:44:49 ais523, and no I don't indeed 19:45:52 in fact I never really tried to learn any of un.*(load|lambda) 19:46:06 well, Underlambda's a cross between Underload and Unlambda 19:46:22 which is designed to be trivial to interpret, relatively easy to compile, yet expressive 19:46:27 ais523, well that regex included both of them, so that really doesn't help ;P 19:46:30 and also you can compile Unlambda into it 19:46:39 ais523, and underload? 19:47:11 ais523, also that holds true for any tc language then! 19:47:47 I assume you meant "trivially compile" 19:47:49 or some such 19:48:16 AnMaster: yes, easily compile 19:48:21 or "compile without cheating" 19:48:38 bundling an interpreter works for all TC langs, but is normally considered cheating 19:48:43 ais523, well since you can compile C into bf, is that cheating? 19:49:00 ah you mean like that 19:49:14 ais523, also you could compile bf to C in befunge-93 19:49:15 I bet 19:49:21 since it is mostly string replacement 19:49:51 yes, probably 19:49:55 even though b93 isn't tc 19:50:00 compiling A to B in C doesn't mean that C is tc 19:50:14 if A is tc, though, and C is tc or lower, it means that B is tc 19:50:14 ais523, interpreting in C would 19:50:37 yes 19:50:39 ais523, "tc or lower"? 19:50:48 higher? oracle machines? 19:50:50 or hwat 19:50:52 what* 19:50:59 yes 19:51:15 ais523, could they do it if B wasn't tc? 19:51:20 in theory, an oracle machine could figure out what A did and translate it to an infinitely large lookup table, for instance 19:51:37 bye 19:51:42 ais523, wouldn't work if B had limited ram 19:51:43 ofc this doesn't actually work for any real sub-TC languages B, but some mathematical ones it odes 19:51:45 -!- Mony has quit ("Ne regrettons pas le passé, ne nous préoccupons pas de l'avenir : le sage vit dans le présent."). 19:51:45 and bye Mony 19:51:50 and wasn't TC for that reason 19:52:00 ah yes 19:52:05 you just said 19:52:27 -!- p3k has left (?). 19:52:41 ais523, is lazy evaluation of that look up table allowed? :D 19:52:56 AnMaster: by what? 19:53:04 if it's by B, then arguably B is doing its calculation instead 19:53:09 ais523, by C 19:53:16 oh, in that case B could trivally be sub-TC 19:53:20 it could be cat, for instance 19:53:31 and C wouldn't need to be super-tc 19:53:32 with C being an interpreter for A 19:53:35 yes 19:53:37 it could just be haskell 19:53:38 ! 19:53:38 so that is cheating 19:54:57 could a tc language solve the halting problem for sub-tc languages? 19:55:13 yes, for some sub-tc langs 19:55:20 such as? 19:55:24 finite state machines 19:55:30 you can brute-force their halting problem 19:55:33 with a TC lang 19:55:39 or just with a sufficiently bigger FSM 19:55:46 what exactly is a "finite state machines" 19:56:03 s/s"$/"/ 19:56:19 AnMaster: it's basically anything that can only have a finite amount of internal state 19:56:21 like any real computer 19:56:27 or a programming language without infinite memory 19:56:31 but isn't a computer a BSM? 19:56:35 if A is tc, though, and C is tc or lower, it means that B is tc 19:56:42 a BSM is a special case of an FSM 19:56:48 i don't think you need a restriction on C 19:56:52 it's one which would be TC if not for the bound on memory 19:56:59 oerjan: you do if B can take infinite input 19:57:07 ais523, oh? So a FSM is superset of BSM? 19:57:21 since if A is tc you can write a universal program for it 19:57:48 and the simple fact it can be compiled to B means B is tc 19:57:49 which you couldn't compile into B? 19:57:58 regardless of C 19:58:22 oerjan, not if it was compiled by an oracle machine C, which generated an infinite look up table for all outcomes of the program, as I ais523 said? 19:58:27 s/I/ 19:58:36 or is that wrong? 19:58:45 AnMaster: yes, FSM is a superset of BSM 19:58:50 AnMaster: doesn't matter, it still has to result in _one_ B program 19:58:55 it includes things that wouldn't be TC even with infinite memory 19:59:01 ais523, is BSM the most powerful variant of FSM or? 19:59:08 yes 19:59:14 well, for certain definitions of "powerful" 19:59:16 oerjan, sure? 19:59:20 ais523, oh? 19:59:34 AnMaster: some not-nearly-TC FSMs are better at certain things 19:59:38 like factorising primes 19:59:47 but as the whole brouhaha with ais523 himself and the wolfram TM shows, TC is dubious to define when input can be infinite 19:59:59 ais523, quantum computers are FSM but not BSM or? 20:00:41 AnMaster: quantum computers are infinite state machines 20:00:51 ais523, is that super-turing? 20:00:57 oerjan: I agree with you for finite input 20:01:07 AnMaster: you can't simulate them on real computers exactly, you have to approximate 20:01:12 but the infinite state can't be extracted 20:01:19 because they're probabilistic anyway 20:01:25 the probabilities are arbitrary-precision real numbers 20:01:29 Of course, that's because our computers are kinda finate-state. ;p 20:01:31 ais523, so that means they are sub-tc or super-tc? 20:01:31 but you can't find out what the probability is 20:01:38 AnMaster: sub-TC, in practice 20:01:45 well, they just return results at random 20:01:45 hm ok 20:02:02 a good quantum computer program tries to increase the chance of the result being right as much as possible 20:02:15 but any interesting quantum program can return any possible answer, in theory 20:02:29 Quantum physics? 20:02:34 It is my time to shine :D 20:02:35 you just try to maximise the probability of getting the right answer, then you check the answer on a conventional computer and run again if you're wrong 20:02:36 ais523, so even running it multiple times isn't fool-proof? 20:02:37 Or is it? 20:02:39 Slereah_: quantum computing 20:02:40 AnMaster: no 20:02:49 but normally you can check the answer quite quickly 20:03:00 finding an element in a database, for instance, or factorising prime products 20:03:15 ais523 : Well, there is quantum in it 20:03:28 ais523, worst case is O(inf) then? 20:03:30 yes 20:03:32 And we're doing pretty much only that 20:03:40 ais523, that is as bad as bogo-sort! 20:03:44 -!- kar8nga has quit (Connection timed out). 20:03:54 AnMaster: the typical case is a lot better though 20:04:00 Quantum physics, solid state physics using quantum physics, atomic physics using quantum physics, group theory for quantum physics 20:04:01 ais523, hm 20:04:09 It's like a festival of quantum 20:04:10 factorising prime products in O(log n), for instance 20:04:30 normally it only takes 5 tries or so 20:04:44 also, when that algorithm returns the wrong answer, it's most likely either close to the correct answer, or 0 20:05:01 ais523, but you can't be sure it is a prime? You can be sure if it returns the factors for a composite I guess 20:05:12 but never sure if it is actually prime 20:05:17 or? 20:05:46 AnMaster: normally you know the number you're looking for is the product of two primes in the first place 20:05:48 ais523, also doesn't the integer one return 0 or 1? 20:05:49 for code-breaking, and such 20:05:53 true or false 20:06:06 I'm talking about factorising prime products 20:06:11 rather than checking for primality 20:06:23 Shoors algorithm is the latter isn't it? 20:06:30 or however the name was spelled 20:06:35 Shor's 20:06:39 k 20:07:40 afk, unknown if it lasts till(sp?) tomorrow or if I get back later 20:07:43 later today* 20:09:12 ais523: i'm not sure that a quantum computer really requires infinite memory to simulate exactly. you should be able to rewrite things with explicit matrices, which blow up exponentially but not infinitely. 20:09:27 oerjan: ah, interesting 20:09:34 AnMaster: [OT] Till and 'til are both correct short-forms of "until" 20:09:38 well, in theory, you could give it arbitrary reals as the input to a probability rotation 20:09:51 but there'd be no way to input those using any known input method 20:10:21 i vaguely recall something about quantum computing not being able to do more than PSPACE problems 20:10:35 (in polynomial time) 20:11:01 well, quantum computing doesn't do anything a regular computer couldn't do 20:11:11 it's just O(n/log(n)) faster 20:11:16 which is normally a very worthwhile trade 20:12:51 But quantum computers cannot love. 20:13:07 actually night 20:13:11 Not yet. 20:13:17 night AnMaster 20:14:04 GregorR: [OT] "till" is not a shortened form of "until" 20:14:21 head-of-horn-clause ":-" body-of-horn-clause 20:14:25 isn't that the meaning 20:14:30 defines a procedure 20:14:31 "BQP is contained in the complexity class #P (or more precisely in the associated class of decision problems P#P)[19], which is a subclass of PSPACE. 20:14:32 yes 20:14:47 and "procedure" is one way to put it, they're pretty different from imperative procedures 20:15:01 "Horn clause" is the correct name, unfortunately not very useful for people who don't know what that means 20:28:37 -!- Corun has joined. 20:31:29 ... 20:31:38 i seriously read that as "horny procedure" 20:31:50 /me continues reading logs 20:31:52 ... 20:31:56 not my day. 20:31:57 -> 20:31:57 i seriously avoided mentioning that 20:38:21 P#P 20:38:22 ? 20:38:38 actually the #P should be a superscript 20:38:40 horn clauses are trivial 20:38:53 and funnnnn 20:39:32 is that so? so, err, does it literally mean polynomial + polynomial exponent? 20:39:43 i haven't heard bout no P#P's 20:40:04 so if it's the usual meaning, P^#P means "can be solved in polynomial time with a #P oracle" 20:40:16 i see, i see 20:40:25 and care to tell me what a #P oracle is? :P 20:40:29 and no i won't wpw 20:40:31 *wp 20:41:05 it's like having a Turing machine, except it has a special instruction that allows it to solve any #P problem instantly 20:41:19 and what's #P :D 20:41:23 and right 20:41:32 that's an oracle, ofc 20:41:58 some other class of problems, probably counting problems by the # 20:42:01 i just wasn't familiar with the term except for meaning a superturing thingie 20:42:37 yeah the superturing thing is when you take the oracle problem to be the halting problem or such 20:43:34 "More formally, #P is the class of function problems of the form "compute f(x)," where f is the number of accepting paths of an NP machine." 20:44:29 so while NP checks whether a Turing machine _can_ succeed, #P counts how many alternative ways it can do so 20:44:57 yes, i just haven't generalized that, because when i learned the concept of oracle, it was enough complex for me as it was, and i didn't exactly know much about computational complexity in general 20:45:23 and that came with a lag 20:45:42 except the lag was in the fact i had scrolled a few lines up and was responding to your old message 20:46:35 i see how that's a subset of PSPACE 20:48:22 "One consequence of Toda's theorem is that a polynomial-time machine with a #P oracle (P#P) can solve all problems in PH, the entire polynomial hierarchy." 20:48:30 try the new pro-log, with horny clauses! 20:50:31 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:54:14 -!- omniscient_idiot has joined. 21:02:24 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 21:02:24 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 21:07:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | haskell isn't stack based. 21:15:35 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:23:54 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:25:29 -!- ab5tract has joined. 21:31:41 -!- kar8nga has joined. 22:12:00 -!- ab5tract has quit. 22:15:32 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:21:07 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 22:22:56 -!- Corun has joined. 22:23:11 -!- Asztal has joined. 22:23:47 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 22:29:09 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 22:29:48 optbot! 22:29:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I feel that it would be far better for people to see that it's wrong to do so, and keep the government out of it.. 22:30:09 what's wrong with "haskell isn't stack based"? 22:32:01 well if the government wants haskell to be stack based, clearly it must be wrong. 22:32:17 ah, ok 22:33:55 Who, Haskell or the gubmint 22:34:09 the government, presumably 22:34:14 duh 22:34:29 * ais523 ponders what stack-based Haskell would be like 22:34:38 actually, I suspect Haskell compiles into Underload 22:34:43 (barring I/O and other things like that) 22:34:57 Wouldn't anything compile into anything? 22:35:03 I mean, easily 22:35:25 Well, since it's sort of functional, I guess 22:43:41 -!- p3k has joined. 22:43:53 -!- p3k has left (?). 23:07:16 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:14:44 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 23:21:30 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 23:24:51 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 23:25:17 I'm looking for trivialities of human behavior that can be formalized to a stupid degree. 23:25:17 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:25:28 I formalized the order of urinals (using an entire whiteboard), but now I'm looking for more :P 23:27:17 -!- ehird has left (?). 23:27:19 -!- ehird has joined. 23:27:22 -!- ehird has left (?). 23:27:26 -!- ehird has joined. 23:27:39 Bouncy bouncy. 23:27:45 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:28:24 GregorR-L: formalise quit/join spam in IRC channels 23:33:40 Too nondeterministic. 23:33:52 Or rather, too determined by the whims of stupid humans :P 23:34:00 ok, then, flamewars 23:34:03 that would actually be useful 23:34:04 Hey now. 23:34:06 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 23:34:21 That would take study, but I'll bet it's more formulaic than one might initially think. 23:57:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 23:58:44 poiuy_qwert: You implemented 2L! Zomg. 2008-10-16: 00:08:30 GUYS 00:11:36 Guys and gays 00:11:45 (The 21st century remake of guys and dolls) 00:16:26 gays... like the COMMUNISTS 00:20:02 Gays... Like ALAN TURING 00:22:21 Gays... like that COMMUNIST ALAN TURING 00:24:27 Hahah. 00:32:52 hello GregorR-L, yeah i did 00:41:13 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:43:16 -!- slereah has joined. 00:44:32 poiuy_qwert: I didn't realize it had been reimplemented :P 00:44:42 poiuy_qwert: You realize I wrote my own Hello, world when I wrote the language, right? 00:46:00 http://davelargo.blogspot.com/2008/10/evolution-canvas-love.html You have to laugh at this - "Here is how our product looks, here is how the Apple version looks, let's make our product look identical to the Apple version" 00:47:29 - Glass like event UI makes it appear modern and infuriatingly difficult to work with 00:49:15 Yeah that shit is fugl 00:49:15 y 00:49:20 Anyway I am out. seeya 00:52:59 -!- Dewi has joined. 01:00:13 I did not notice when I wrote my version, but I did find it after 01:06:22 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:34:06 what's the opinion on py3k 01:34:31 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:45:01 bsmntbombdood: python 3000? is that like python with slightly less bloat? 01:55:09 that's the idea 01:57:49 Almost debate time! 02:18:03 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:34:04 MOXIE > * 03:07:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | interesting. is the transformation function turing-complex?. 04:00:10 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 04:00:17 http://codu.org/oou.pdf 04:00:30 I wurve needless formalization. 04:18:11 right 04:36:45 -!- ab5tract has joined. 04:55:19 Oh come on, people in this channel should love needless formalization at least a third as much as I do. 05:02:35 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:07:20 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 05:11:07 define needless. define formalization. 05:26:29 http://codu.org/oou.pdf // needless formalization. 05:41:53 -!- ab5tract has quit. 05:50:14 -!- Dewio has joined. 06:02:48 GregorR: is that an order of urinals computational model? 06:02:54 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 06:03:02 Well, it's not a computation model, but yes, it is the order of urinals :P 06:03:11 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi. 06:03:22 i have no idea what the content means 06:03:48 oh 06:03:58 the first line is the type? 06:04:18 hmmhmm 06:06:11 it's the definition of a function 06:06:15 that's all i can glean 06:07:29 ya, but i have no idea what the body does, i'm hoping it doesn't run oou, because it's kinda short. 06:07:39 hmm 06:09:15 d()... distances are quite crucial in oou, when approaching a urinal, you need to take steps that takes you closer to it, and when choosing a urinal, you have to take the one that's the farthest from yours peer peers 06:09:24 *that take 06:09:32 *your peer 06:09:48 my s key is antibroken 06:17:08 errr 06:19:58 * GregorR reappears :P 06:20:15 That's the idea, yes. 06:20:24 The first two cases are trivial cases (all empty, all in use) 06:20:36 The third case chooses the urinal which is most distant from any in use urinals. 06:21:46 why doesn't the definition take any arguments? 06:22:21 It's the definition of a transform, not a function in the functional-language sense. 06:22:31 hmm 06:22:37 -!- Dewio has joined. 06:23:23 That is, it's a state transition. 06:23:51 What are U, U_E and U_I? 06:24:04 U is the set of all urinals, U_E are those that are not in use, U_I are those that are in use. 06:25:09 why do you need all three then? 06:25:14 you should just use U_E and U_I 06:25:28 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 06:25:41 Strictly I don't, but it allows some convenient definitions regarding their unions and disjunctions *shrugs*. 06:27:54 if U = U_E then U_I = {} 06:28:01 Yes. 06:28:16 so the first case should have U'_I = {x} 06:28:23 don't need the redundancy 06:28:35 Eh, 'struth. 06:28:54 Believe it or not, getting the most efficient writeup was not one of my goals :P 06:29:24 (Otherwise the first case would be removed entirely) 06:29:50 (With some minor adjustments to the last part, that is) 06:30:24 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi. 06:31:00 http://www.codu.org/pics/albums/userpics/normal_Trombute_Complete_Taped.jpg 06:31:01 sexy beast 06:37:56 * GregorR eats a peanutbutter-and-banana sandwich. 06:40:21 mmmm 06:40:56 -!- ab5tract has joined. 06:54:06 DIS LINK NOT WORK 07:04:39 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 07:22:07 -!- Dewio has joined. 07:35:02 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:35:21 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 07:52:36 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving."). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:42 -!- immibis has joined. 08:04:40 -!- Ps2jak2 has joined. 08:04:45 hi 08:05:25 -!- Ps2jak2 has set topic: Um. 08:05:40 fungot! 08:05:40 immibis: eval ( expt fnord 2) 08:05:43 er 08:05:46 wrong bot 08:05:47 optbot! 08:05:47 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | my friend just glanced at it and got it :|. 08:06:07 * Ps2jak2 shoots optbot with rocketlauncher 08:06:07 Ps2jak2: but what we need to do is anticipate that anywhere we could use the resulting monad we could also get 'Ok' 08:06:29 wtf!? 08:06:34 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:06:46 i know lets kick the bot!!! 08:06:51 jokes lol 08:07:17 ^echo optbot 08:07:17 immibis: the full title is "Anything (we can fix)" 08:07:18 optbot optbot 08:07:18 fungot: plus I've been composing for a long time 08:07:18 optbot: i almost understood that _; my self fnord my out " " fnord 08:07:19 fungot: as the case may be. 08:07:19 optbot: also, i'm norwegian. not sure if i like 08:07:19 fungot: you might want to change your nickserv password. 08:07:20 optbot: c99 seems to bascially fnord)" 08:07:20 fungot: Yeah... Perl doesn't design for readability... so it's sort of expect anyways. ^_^ 08:07:20 optbot: i have to think 08:07:20 fungot: sweet 08:08:18 optbot: c99 seems to bascially fnord)" 08:08:18 oerjan: in oklotalk, i had that problem 08:08:18 oerjan: average lifespan divided by world population... the file i'm writing which is still useless. 08:08:23 the truth is revealed! 08:08:29 im getting a 360 08:08:32 wii can fuck a cow 08:08:51 great news for the insemination industry 08:15:07 fungot: Hey, you're not Norwegian! 08:15:07 fizzie: you don't know emacs 08:15:27 i think those cancel out 08:15:36 What a strange counter-argument. 08:15:57 fungot: what is 2 + 2? 08:15:58 immibis: for now, but i'm not connecting the dots to how a program handles fnord errors. 08:15:58 "You don't know emacs, therefore you can't say anything about my nationality." 08:16:11 wtf is a fnord? 08:16:16 hahaha 08:16:29 "you don't know emacs" 08:16:34 "Fnord is the typographic representation of disinformation or irrelevant information intending to misdirect, with the implication of a conspiracy." 08:16:44 I just use it as a placeholder for rare words. 08:16:54 see Truthiness 08:19:29 -!- Dewi has joined. 08:23:19 -!- Ps2jak2 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:23:20 -!- Ps2jak2_ has joined. 08:24:31 ok 08:24:39 fungot: what is is 08:24:39 ab5tract: actually i like " facilitate", because it expects pure functions. the guy who can 08:24:43 i thought it actually meant something, maybe function ordinal whatever that is 08:25:05 immibis: a fnord is like a fjord of lies 08:25:33 fizzie: is fungot you're doing? 08:25:34 ab5tract: we all get bored and quit" is done the same with h in that same place would have had that first, and then 08:26:04 s/you're/your 08:26:13 ab5tract: Yes. In case anyone didn't mention it yet, it's written in Befunge (Funge-98, actually), therefore the name. 08:26:16 ga i should go to bed 08:26:25 fizzie: i figured :) 08:26:45 i've only begun to funge 08:27:30 i've played with befunge-93 but i haven't read through the 98 spec yet 08:27:39 Well, fungot's not overly complicated, some 300 lines: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 08:27:40 fizzie: then you want a regular tuning 08:27:47 haha 08:28:05 fungot: You mean I should tune you, or I should self be somehow "tuned"? 08:28:05 fizzie: it's quite easy 08:28:22 That's somewhat disturbing. The bot is going to "tune" me. 08:28:35 lol 08:28:56 fungot: are you omniscient? 08:28:57 immibis: but it was fixed in subsequent versions of gcc, i have 08:29:07 omg you made fungot omniscient!? 08:29:08 immibis: when all booleans are true, but we don't have hierarchical namespace and it's hard to read 08:29:50 fungot knows all. but he is a little vague on which parts are true and which are false. 08:29:50 oerjan: now that's cool. it's not specifically fast, and even though we aren't/ haven't been married in over six years, but want to program recursively, can 08:30:12 you haven't been married in over six years.... 08:30:20 W T F 08:30:42 I'm not sure the Finnish jurisdiction will even let snippets of code to marry. 08:30:45 so you and fungot were married six years ago? 08:30:46 immibis: i don't follow feeds that closely... 08:32:07 -!- Dewio_ has joined. 08:32:19 -!- Dewio has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 08:32:22 I don't think fungot even existed six years ago. There's something fishy going on. 08:32:22 fizzie: sleep calls... night all. i just now realized that sentence made no sense 08:32:30 only in befunge could an oracle be written in ~300 lines 08:33:23 -!- mellifluidicpuls has joined. 08:33:28 fizzie: cool of you to comment that code 08:33:48 fungot: nly systms wrth knwng gt knwn 08:33:49 ab5tract: next challenge is to golf that js down to 510 characters, plus the 1000 books released early which have confirmed the leak to be genuine. 08:33:52 There's actually 350 lines of C++ and 175 lines of Perl (curiously coincidental numbers) involved in creating the language model used for the oracular predictions. 08:34:29 fungot: 4 + 4 08:34:30 ab5tract: 14 nonterminals left) instead of 08:34:58 I'd like to comment the code better, but I lack a suitable editor that can comment arbitrarily shaped regions of text and handle moving of comments when editing. 08:35:02 fizzie: i see. i didnt realize befunge interfaced with other languages so handily 08:35:10 fungot: are you related to any of the pacific northwest species of fungi perfecti? 08:35:10 mellifluidicpuls: you're that guy 08:35:15 -!- Ps2jak2_ has quit ("Some folks are wise, and some otherwise."). 08:35:21 omg 08:35:27 hilarious 08:35:47 lol 08:35:52 roflolmao 08:35:53 fizzie: yes befunge needs its own ide 08:35:56 The other languages are just used to create a data file; Funge-98 FILE fingerprint is used to read 'em. 08:36:09 ahhh 08:36:12 fizzie: i think that somehow ties into your not knowing emacs 08:36:21 roflolmao 08:37:25 fungot: 5 == 5 08:37:25 ab5tract: can you give me an assortion of mind virii to choose from. 08:37:46 fungot: only in special instances 08:37:46 fungot: i suggest the Borg 08:37:47 ab5tract: the gui doesn't seem useful for what? 08:37:47 oerjan: the one one one-shot continuations, yome. 08:38:08 fungot: what sort of bedfellow are you? 08:38:09 mellifluidicpuls: rather, even takes n, 08:38:34 fungot: that don't make no sense! 08:38:35 mellifluidicpuls: error in make-vector: exact integer required for operation. 08:39:13 now i understand why i was so confused when i was reading through the logs when i first found the channel 08:39:16 fungot: Stop pretending you're written in Scheme. 08:39:17 fizzie: ( mu ( lambda ( x) 08:39:19 fungot: -1351356 08:39:19 immibis: that's cool. it's not a bad plan.) when it suffices that fnord) 08:39:20 mellifluidicpuls: i think fungot is schemeing against you 08:39:21 oerjan: oh. misunderstood. it's late) re: srfis. the scheme language is to an assembly language 08:39:41 does it look for keywords or something 08:40:05 It doesn't look at the input text at all. At least it shouldn't. (Just checks if the string "fungot" is a substring of it.) 08:40:06 fizzie: actually i am 08:40:17 lol 08:40:24 fudge bars 08:40:29 i need to sleep 08:40:42 fungot dont haunt my dreams 08:40:42 ab5tract: ( for those not reading comp.lang.scheme: http://www.schemers.org/ documents/ standards/ r5rs/ html/ fnord 08:40:42 ok 08:40:43 Well, in any case, the code I wrote doesn't look at the input. Who knows what that bot actually does. 08:40:54 seriously 08:40:57 i just noticed that you mentioned scheme and it said ( mu ( lambda ( x) 08:41:02 fungot: are you an.... anarchist??? 08:41:02 ab5tract: maybe tomorrow? the day after tomorrow 08:41:07 lol 08:41:14 it seems to give surprisingly relevant answers 08:41:17 lol 08:41:20 fungot good to hear. fight the man! 08:41:20 ab5tract: or... should it skip over next instruction or next char always? 08:41:32 fungot: fuck no and dont you forget it 08:41:33 ab5tract: each successive number means that you're unlikely to use some sort of 08:41:48 fungot: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 08:41:48 immibis: is this channel for night and then go to fnord 08:41:56 fungot: clarify. 08:41:57 immibis: wouldn't work for heterogeneous arrays, twb`. nice 08:42:13 fungot: maybe you're right, i shouldn't be clarifying heterogeneous arrays. 08:42:14 immibis: what's that game evoli mentioned the other day 08:42:14 you are a riot fungot 08:42:14 mellifluidicpuls: are you reading through sicp? 08:42:37 fungot seems scheme obsessed 08:42:37 oerjan: x86 only at the signatures of a project's modules good documentation for the whole thing 08:42:44 -!- CoffeeBot has joined. 08:42:45 * CoffeeBot is making a coffee in an office mug with cold milk for this channel 08:42:46 * CoffeeBot gives everyone in this channel a coffee in an office mug with cold milk 08:42:48 -!- CoffeeBot has left (?). 08:42:55 sorry i was demonstrating it to ps2jak2 08:43:12 oerjan: Might be because I fed my #scheme logs (in addition to #esoteric) to the language model builder to get a bit more data. 08:43:59 That's 72 megs of #scheme, 40 megs of #esoteric. 08:44:06 ouch 08:44:10 get logs of #defocus 08:44:31 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 08:44:39 or #boingboing 08:44:43 I did at some point feed it some selected books from Project Gutenberg to make it talk like Charles Darwin. 08:44:48 But it was just freaky. 08:44:52 oh goodness 08:44:55 lol 08:44:58 fizzie: it started evolving? 08:45:07 can we have a book of revelations mode? 08:45:20 oerjan: There was a lot of talk about various species of animals, at the very least. 08:45:46 how bout some shakesear fungot 08:45:46 or a nostradamus mode 08:45:46 mellifluidicpuls: i didn't need to 08:46:03 bastard fungot, you don't know whats good for oyu 08:46:03 ab5tract: you mean structs? 08:47:06 -!- CoffeeBot has joined. 08:47:06 fungot: hi 08:47:07 CoffeeBot: but a far more likely outcome." http://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/ exe 08:47:11 okay im out now. i could do this all not 08:47:13 Let's see.. I used the books at http://zem.fi/~fis/darwinbooks.txt for the Charles Darwin mode. 08:47:17 s/not/night/ 08:47:25 !r quit 08:47:26 -!- CoffeeBot has quit. 08:47:40 fungot its been real 08:47:40 ab5tract: ( the lexical environment is the key to these things 08:47:49 i couldn't agree more 08:48:00 is the source available? 08:48:17 fizzie: mo' modes plz 08:48:26 immibis: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 08:48:27 ab5tract: imagine a beowulf array of sarahbots 08:48:41 what's a sarahbot? 08:48:46 I love sarahbots! 08:49:06 Maybe fungot could include the source link in its irc name? 08:49:06 oerjan: int main(int argc, char **argv 08:49:10 There was a sarahbot on #scheme, I think. 08:49:40 imagine a beowulf array of fungots 08:49:40 oerjan: seen ig? it's a beloved movie. cyberpunk keanu techno-spiritual black dudes. 08:49:56 lol 08:49:57 wtf 08:50:14 goddamn you fungot you are funging my brainstemspace 08:50:14 ab5tract: it's what it is? 08:50:25 say it with conviction damn you 08:50:26 wow fungot, sounds like matrix 08:50:26 mellifluidicpuls: let me do that actually works correctly btw, do you mind if 08:50:36 fungot: that doesn't make sense 08:50:37 immibis: maybe s48 does work on this 08:50:43 it is slowly reprogramming us 08:50:49 lol 08:50:54 seriously 08:50:55 fuckin eh it is 08:50:56 how does the phrase generator program work 08:51:40 -!- ab5tract has quit. 08:52:01 Do you want the short or the long description? 08:52:08 short 08:52:59 It collects all n-grams (up to n=4, I think) and counts the frequencies... then it uses the previously generated context of n-1 and the frequencies of the n-grams with matching first n-1 words to determine the next word. 08:53:11 Also, I think I found the Darwin model I built earlier. 08:53:19 fungot: Can you speak like Darwin for us? 08:53:19 fizzie: letter 765. to j.d. hooker. down 1857?. 139.), whilst still kept in/ greenhouse, produced capsules in/ ratio :) fnord to/ taste or/ odour :) cervus fnord on/ toucans; protective colouring :) shells. 08:53:41 Oh, right, Darwin had this problem about using :) all the time. 08:53:48 and / 08:53:53 lol 08:53:57 me too 08:54:40 I think my script just picks up some ascii-formatting from the Gutenbergized version of the books, but not sure what. 08:55:08 what genus of fungot are you? 08:55:08 mellifluidicpuls:/ storage :) a supply :) organised matter, not containing any organic matter; and here/ evidence is plain in/ valle del yeso. it was different with/ quadrifids; for/ lining :) protoplasm was a little cliff similarly composed, but including many nodular and stalactiform concretions: i found " 640? 1. 08:55:20 lol "not containing any organic matter" 08:55:25 quite accurate don't you think 08:55:39 Yes, "organised matter, not containing any organic matter" is a good description. 08:55:45 fungot: what kingdom are you in? 08:55:45 immibis: seedlings were raised from/ same plant, but can seldom gain access into its cavity, to/ same side; and these turn by well-adapted movements to any object with its extremity considerably upturned, but to a different climate. 08:55:54 fungot: how does evolution work? 08:55:54 immibis: embryology, 218 08:55:59 fungot: how does evolution work? 08:55:59 immibis: new guinea " e. columbi, fnord.) 08:56:03 fungot: clarify 08:56:03 immibis: if any domestic race had descended from/ jagged summit :)/ plant, any more than why unnatural conditions :) life. 08:56:06 fungot: clarify 08:56:12 fungot: you are an idiot 08:56:16 deflol 08:56:18 "unnatural conditions :)" 08:56:38 It went to the "ignoring this person" mode it uses to avoid optbot loops. 08:56:38 fizzie: if ((ptr + sizeof(type)) < comp->mem->size) { \ 08:57:03 you made it do that specifically to avoid optbot loops? 08:57:04 immibis: And now, the conspiracy theory. 08:57:19 you made fungot do that specifically to avoid optbot loops? 08:57:20 immibis: http://pastebin.ca/963248 08:57:39 Yes. It will again start responding to you when someone else speaks to it. 08:57:42 fungot: Hey there. 08:57:43 fizzie: printed by william clowes and sons, stamford street, and afterwards to visit/ flower, as i saw when i hastened/ fall :) fnord and this is/ chief object; and strongly contracted facial muscles destroy fnord/ story :)/ composition is generally told with wonderful force. your discussion on/ australian musk-duck; on/ relative proportions :)/ limbs :) rabbits, muscles wither, arteries grow up. on great droughts. on hydrophob 08:57:43 ok 08:58:02 btw did you know http://qdb.us/ has an orange colour scheme while http://www.qdb.us/ is blue? 08:58:06 In any case, IRC logs seem to generate better IRC chatter than Darwin's books. 08:58:29 this is a gas folks (and bots) - but I gotta turn in 08:58:38 i still say you should add #defocus logs 08:58:46 nite fungot and optbot 08:58:46 mellifluidicpuls: >>> numbda "/"*5 08:58:46 mellifluidicpuls: macacus nemestrinus. lastly, dr. f. smith informs me that this is/ case with/ females :) certain flies " culicidae and fnord) or two species only, appears to range continuously from/ cordillera to/ highlands :) southern brazil " in/ :( expression :)/ emotions,' page 220, in which/ water has been seen to fructify in france. 08:58:59 lol 08:59:01 -!- mellifluidicpuls has left (?). 08:59:28 fungot: Do you work with symlinks correctly? 08:59:28 fizzie: which is interesting but not turing-complete, is unknown, you will have to 08:59:36 Seems to. Back to irclogs. 08:59:59 What's #defocus all about? 09:00:01 fungot: you are an idiot in this mode? 09:00:02 immibis: " language" 09:00:08 #defocus is off-topic 09:00:15 fungot: why are you an idiot in this mode? 09:00:15 immibis: that's just bad style html. i don't 09:00:39 i have to go now. 09:00:42 i leave you with two words. 09:00:45 ^echo optbot 09:00:45 immibis: with different intervals corresponding to different instructions 09:00:45 optbot optbot 09:00:45 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. and dlte ur files. and email ths to). 09:00:46 fungot: I just spent a longish time completely filling a Sodaplay thingy with dots and springs. 09:00:47 optbot: trust me, the entertainment in doylestown is the people who run joy now expect to run joy programs that access it on any other platform i am aware 09:00:47 fungot: He doesn't understand "no flooding" too well. 09:00:47 optbot: what do you mean? you asked me to call for something more useful 09:00:47 fungot: online church fete store? ;d 09:00:48 optbot: oh yes, all of those before. 09:00:48 fungot: oops 09:00:48 optbot: rather than having arbitrary x-, y- and z-axis, you have 09:00:49 fungot: oh 09:01:32 I feel a bit bad for the log-readers who now have to wade through all that nonsense. 09:02:09 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:03:00 -!- puzzlet has joined. 09:05:03 hah 09:07:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | the only things are += -= ^=, if_then_else_fi_, from_do_loop_until, call_, uncall_ and skip, and the only data is numbers. 09:07:31 is that a riddle optbot? 09:07:31 AnMaster: same 09:07:37 I guess that means yes 09:07:44 so what language is it 09:07:48 some imperative one I guess 09:07:59 looks like a reversible one 09:08:19 oerjan, because of uncall? 09:08:27 that was the first hint 09:08:33 but also the assignments 09:08:48 ^= would be bitwise xor? 09:08:52 yeah 09:09:01 hm 09:09:54 fizzie, btw it should be possible for fungot to get in a loop with two other bots, say optbot and some other similar bot 09:09:55 AnMaster: try xmodmap -e " alt_l meta_l alt_l". it doesn't 09:09:55 AnMaster: mostly due to the expression syntax 09:10:03 I hope we don't get that many bots though 09:11:31 It is. And it's already possible (and trivial) to make it loop with thutubot alone since the "ignore after four times" still applies only to babbling, not ^commands. 09:11:51 hm 09:11:59 fizzie, you could ignore the other bots 09:12:29 I should write a generic "ignore list" support, in fact. Probably too busy to do it very soon, though. 09:12:35 ok 09:13:39 We already saw a fungot-optbot-thutubot triple-loop, in fact. (Simply including the 'optbot' string in the fungot-thutubot loop made optbot generate so much chatter that it would've prevented the single-person-ignore from kicking in.) 09:13:39 fizzie: so, you've already asked, but then we wouldn't have the slightest clue what you are 09:13:40 fizzie: yes 09:13:57 fizzie, ah 09:14:01 yeah I can see the issue 09:14:27 but you want to keep the current "more than 4" limit to provide some protection against new bots 09:14:39 hopefully we won't get too many more 09:14:59 Everyone wants in on this lucrative bot business. :p 09:15:34 fizzie, I was actually thinking about some multi-eso bot, somewhat like the old egobot 09:15:39 I have plans in that area 09:16:01 it wouldn't itself be coded in an esolang 09:16:06 but rather in erlang 09:19:52 fizzie, If you saw a fingerprint named ATHR what would you think it was? 09:20:12 asynchronous threads 09:20:13 Somethinf related to asynchronous threading. 09:20:20 good name then :) 09:20:57 My plan is that it should work like t in normal befunge-98 mostly, except not synchronised 09:21:12 however to make it still possible to code stuff in it there are two things: 09:21:51 a read or write from funge space is atomic, even though the value may change after the read and the g, p, ' or s returns 09:22:00 so you won't get corruption 09:22:01 and 09:22:14 some synchronization primitives 09:22:24 to make it possible to still write programs using it 09:22:42 however any comments on this area would be very useful! 09:23:01 what types of sync primitives should exist for example? 09:23:09 fizzie, oerjan ^ 09:23:30 something like pause/resume threads would be one of them I think. 09:23:58 also some for of mutexes 09:24:14 and is it a good idea at all? 09:25:30 behaviour would be that blocking IO only blocks the relevant ATHR thread, and other ones may continue 09:25:52 (that would affect SOCK for example) 09:26:48 so 09:26:50 good or bad idea? 09:27:29 * AnMaster pokes fizzie and oerjan 09:28:52 i hear transactional memory is cool 09:29:08 * AnMaster googles 09:29:28 as for the atomic funge space I already know how to do that in the interpreter I plan to implement it in 09:29:31 which would be efunge 09:30:02 ets can be shared (they are private by default), and any writes/reads on single entries are atomic. 09:30:15 and since I use a private ets table for funge-space the change would be trivial 09:30:41 but "only if value is the same" 09:30:56 you mean like compare-and-exchange 09:30:59 interesting idea 09:32:06 Note: "i hear" carries a connotation that practical threading is not one of my fields of expertise 09:32:24 ah 09:32:36 oerjan, did you say befunge and practical? 09:32:57 i'm not quite sure whether or not i have _ever_ written a concurrent program, in fact :D 09:33:38 i did not say befunge, so no 09:43:34 afk 09:44:54 Well, I think I would like that. Simple atomic funge-space access sounds like it's enough -- no-one's writing Funge code because it's easy. As for synchronization, a semaphore is a very classical choice. 09:45:55 thus it would be better to use something else, like morse code 09:58:30 -!- oklopol has joined. 09:58:33 Well, a semaphore is pretty primitive as far as primitives go -- though I guess a single atomic compare-and-swap instruction would be even more primitive -- and would work nicely as a Funge instruction, unlike some stranges concurrency thingies. 10:01:38 -!- oklocod has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:03:41 You could even call the semaphore operations P and V like Dijkstra did. :p 10:08:02 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:29:01 fizzie, semaphore or mutex? 10:29:34 fizzie, also compare-and-swap in funge space would be harder for my implementation 10:29:45 and a huge performance hit 10:30:14 fizzie, remember I plan to implement it in efunge, not in cfunge 10:30:24 in fact efunge probably won't have the classical t at all 10:31:07 Well, a mutex is a special case of a semaphore (using only values 0, 1) so I'd go with a semaphore. 10:31:19 what about a futex? 10:31:35 (see man futex on linux) 10:31:48 (it is the thing the kernel use for both mutexes and semaphores iirc) 10:32:59 NOTES 10:32:59 To reiterate, bare futexes are not intended as an easy to use abstraction for end-users. Implementors are expected to be assembly 10:32:59 literate and to have read the sources of the futex userspace library referenced below. 10:33:00 heh 10:33:35 nah futex wouldn't work I think 10:33:36 I know them. Well, I guess it's just a bit more primitivey and less abstract than a semaphore. 10:33:52 fizzie, actually I think this could work: 10:33:58 S - Suspend current process 10:34:07 R - Resume another (suspended process) 10:34:12 R is async too ;P 10:34:20 s/process/thread/ 10:34:36 fizzie, it would allow syncing, but it would be hard to use 10:35:30 fizzie, or what do you think? 10:35:49 remember I plan to implement it in a language where the concurrency is based on message passing 10:36:09 + atomic read/write of a shared table (funge-space) as a special case 10:36:16 but no compare-and-exchange for said table 10:36:26 I'm not sure you can do a completely race-condition-free mutual execution with just atomic reads, writes and suspend/resume... well, maybe, but there's a bit too many hoops to jump through in order for it to be comfortable to use. Of course if you're not aiming for "comfortable"... 10:36:51 well my aims are: 10:37:10 1) t doesn't allow taking advantage of multi-core computers, I want my ATHR to be able to do that 10:37:42 2) it should be implementable in erlang in a reasonably simple way with reasonable performance 10:38:58 actually semaphores may still be possible 10:39:04 mutexes will definitely 10:40:01 Well, you can "easily" make a semaphore out of mutexes in the Funge code, so I guess it doesn't much matter. 10:42:43 fizzie, ok. :) 10:43:15 fizzie, erlang got something like mutexes (called global locks) 10:43:35 now the second question: How will this interact with existing fingerprints 10:43:41 and existing instructions 10:43:47 IO could be problematic 10:44:12 actually output will work just fine, input won't 10:44:29 due to the needed buffer stuff for input 10:45:15 so input only works for the first ATHR thread I guess 10:45:21 fizzie, does that make sense? 10:47:52 oh and I could allow compare and exchange, but only in respect other calls to the same compare-and-exchange fingerprint function, g and p could still clobber 10:49:58 If you have a synchronized queue, you could stick all your input characters in it in one thread, and your ~ could simply dequeue from there. Since & needs multiple characters and can't return until the whole number is read, it would mean that a thread in & would cause other threads doing ~ to block. Maybe not a bad thing. Your input queue would just need a "unget"-style 'put that thing back' function. 10:50:08 true 10:50:30 Sensible Funge programs will probably only do IO in one thread anyway, I guess. 10:50:32 fizzie, basically sync rpc 10:50:50 on a come-first-serve-first basis 10:51:02 makes perfect sense 10:51:09 (for erlang) 10:51:43 in fact erlang already have a module for something like that so you just write a callback module that fits into it 10:52:02 called gen_server (generic server) 10:53:38 Hm is it is a coincidence that "lock" is a subset of the word "block" 10:54:17 As for block-read/block-write operations (i, o, and various fingerprints like STRN's G, P) it would probably be enough to say that those are not atomic and the calling Funge code needs to explicitly synchronize them if necessary. 10:54:27 yes 10:55:05 fizzie, do you think anyone else will implement this fingerprint if I do it? 10:55:20 or is it too insane and hard to do in most languages? 10:55:53 (it would certainly be a pain in for example C) 10:56:01 Well, it doesn't sound _that_ difficult, at least if you don't think about implementing the atomic read/writes too efficiently. 10:57:33 as long as it isn't running on distributed nodes it should actually work fairly well and be quite efficient, even with smp erlang I think 10:58:08 as for instruction that could collide, consider SOCK and FILE 10:58:16 especially the blocking operations in SOCK 10:58:38 actually sockets and files would not be shared between ATHR threads 10:58:43 at least in my case 11:01:00 Deewiant, got any comments on this ATHR idea? 11:01:45 I'll think about implementing ATHR if I ever make that "FungeFriend" IDE. Although I think (if I feel like it and have some free time) I'll just start with a Befunge-friendly text editor that can do the "comment this strangely shaped region and make sure the comments follow when editing" thing. 11:02:01 FungeFriend? 11:02:03 wtf? 11:02:32 fizzie, what about making sure it realign <>^v as needed too? 11:02:39 and allow writing in the different directions 11:02:53 may not be possible to auto-realign always 11:02:57 but at least sometimes 11:03:48 There's a lot of helpful things it could do. Thank oklo.* for the name: [2008-10-13 14:02:13] < oklopol> more like a friend than an editor really. 11:05:32 I just have a feeling that if I really manage to make a befunge-friendly editor (with a large probability I won't even start) the temptation will be too great not to include a built-in interpreter/debugger in it. 11:13:05 fizzie, there was a debugging protocol plan 11:13:34 however since I didn't have time to work on it more I gave the maintainership of the idea to Deewiant, he was interested 11:13:39 no idea what happened with that since then 11:13:58 it would allow any interpreter and any frontend to interact via a socket, either tcp or unix ones 11:17:20 not much has happened :-/ 11:17:50 mostly because CCBI work is still blocked on a compiler bug, and I've been doing other stuff 11:18:41 aquire, spelling? 11:18:43 hm? 11:19:07 is it acquire? or is that something else? 11:19:23 acquire is something, what do you think it means :-P 11:19:33 Deewiant, "get" basically 11:19:37 that's acquire 11:19:41 right 11:21:08 acquire a squire 11:22:05 oerjan, "squire" and "acquire" were both suggested by aspell on "aquire" 11:22:06 hm 11:22:21 whatever "squire" means 11:22:47 have no quarrel with a squirrel 11:23:14 fizzie: well i would've suggested BeFriend, actually :) 11:23:35 Deewiant, fizzie: http://rafb.net/p/lZ9yn918.html 11:23:37 any comments? 11:23:40 it is a draft 11:24:11 both &~ are still missing 11:24:16 will add that shortly 11:24:44 basically they will be served on a first-come first-serve basis from the same buffer 11:24:55 Deewiant, is this something you may even consider implementing? 11:25:59 maybe 11:26:21 DEATH TO ALL PROCESSES 11:27:03 oklopol: WE WILL PROCESS YOUR DEATH SHORTLY 11:27:09 oklopol, K only kills the current one 11:27:14 I guess Q quit would be better 11:27:21 or E exit 11:27:35 A armageddon 11:27:37 Q so that it matches q, maybe. 11:27:55 fizzie, it is more like @ for the current process, rather than q for the whole interpreter 11:28:03 and @ is exit iirc 11:28:09 the name in the standard I mean 11:28:28 but q could maybe be easier to remember 11:28:30 err 11:28:30 Q 11:28:42 Yes, but you can't do capitalized @. And Q is like "@ for multiple threads", much like q is "@ for multiple threads" too. 11:29:04 fizzie, I always considered q like "@ for the whole interpreter" 11:29:17 Well, then, you can consider Q like "@ for the whole process". 11:29:24 ok you win 11:29:41 Or maybe you could use "@, only really big", and then accept some rich text format input. :p 11:32:26 :D 11:34:05 fizzie, no! 11:34:44 don't be so negative, that would be awesome 11:35:36

@

11:35:49 ! 11:36:04 fizzie: you're quite an xml enthusiast 11:36:07 why is this? 11:36:58 hm 11:37:02 what about REFC and ATHR 11:37:03 fizzie, ^ 11:37:18 REFCount? 11:37:26 oklopol, global references 11:37:32 to a cell 11:37:37 a catseye fingerprint 11:37:58 http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/library/REFC.html 11:38:06 okily foggily. 11:38:15 oklopol, see link then :) 11:38:51 yes much less foggy now 11:39:04 glad you got my new saying :) 11:39:45 Hmm. Well, the closest match to the spec would probably mean the references list is still completely global. 11:39:52 higgely piggely 11:40:04 fizzie, yes I guess so 11:40:15 so a process serving those 11:40:43 Yes, I think it would be good manners to automagically synchronize it so that people can just use D/R with impunity. 11:41:14 fizzie, so like input then 11:41:14 impunity? 11:41:30 oklopol: 1. (1) impunity -- (exemption from punishment or loss) 11:41:38 fizzie, TRDS and ATHR? I plan to define it to be undefined 11:41:47 oklopol: Used in the "without fear of bad things happening" sense. 11:41:52 hmm right i've heard "impune" 11:42:16 oklopol: Not any sort of "imp-unity" a worker's union of imps thing. 11:42:24 :) 11:42:25 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:42:29 fizzie, that would be awesome! 11:42:46 obviously they are related to the "demons flying out of the nose" stuff 11:43:17 Incidentally, do your S-spawned processes start with a copy of the spawning thread's stack, like t does? 11:43:39 obviously they are related to the "demons flying out of the nose" stuff < wat 11:43:52 Slereah_: The imp unity movement. 11:44:06 wat 11:44:07 fizzie, I think that would make sense 11:44:19 fizzie, still there are some issues with regards to t to fix 11:44:24 AnMaster: I guess it would, since it's what I was expecting. And everyone knows I make sense. 11:44:27 1) thread ids as returned by y 11:44:41 2) are all threads in a ATHR duplicated when using S? 11:44:45 (Zounds, sometimes I make almost as much sense as fungot.) 11:44:45 fizzie: how's it going?) reply " en oo mikään mies" or something 11:44:45 I'd say no for 2 11:44:53 and for 1 that they should be unique 11:45:00 Hah, fungot's speaking Finnish. 11:45:01 fizzie: can you explain what purpose display serves other than for. 11:45:16 fizzie, what did that Finnish mean? 11:45:55 i ain't no man 11:45:57 "I'm not a man" is the meaning, although it has a distinct style that I can't really translate right now. 11:46:01 Oh, there it is. 11:46:04 ah 11:46:06 heh 11:46:26 fizzie, anyway what about the two issues I mentioned? 11:46:38 they aren't men either 11:46:50 sigh 11:46:58 1) Unique is good, although probably doesn't matter much; 2) I personally would expect it to start only the single thread doing S. 11:47:18 right 11:47:57 fizzie, what about TRDS? 11:48:00 how would it interact 11:48:15 I wouldn't worry about TRDS at all, it's such a mess. 11:48:41 it's a heap of TRDS 11:48:50 fizzie, so I might safely define it as "trying to use TRDS and ATHR at the same time SHALL cause demons to fly out of the Funge programmers nose"? 11:48:53 :D 11:49:33 or maybe just saying undefined is better 11:49:34 I wouldn't have a problem with that. How does the TRDS time travel interact with Funge-space modifications and input/output, anyway? 11:49:45 I don't think I've ever really read the spec. 11:50:11 fizzie, I think it replays everything since tick 0 11:50:19 for the funge-space modification bit 11:50:26 for io I think it may be undefined 11:51:02 i'm pretty sure it should retract all io that's been done. 11:51:20 because i recall lolling about that when reading the spec 11:51:23 but quite vaguely 11:51:40 Maybe it prints out "hey, please ignore the last characters I wrote, and also when I next ask for input, retype whatever you wrote for the last characters, okay?" 11:52:02 :D 11:52:05 yeah most likely 11:52:21 or perhaps backspaces 11:57:19 fizzie, Deewiant: http://rafb.net/p/XItxWi85.html 11:57:22 any comments? 11:58:16 any other fingerprints that may interact badly with ATHR? 12:00:06 why not "several universes in an ATHR"? 12:00:36 Deewiant, I consider that for ordering purposes MVRS is the top layer, ATHR comes next, and lowest is t 12:01:06 or maybe I just don't get what that's saying 12:01:11 what do you prevent, exactly? 12:01:36 Deewiant, "madness of funge-implementation maintainers"? 12:01:55 AnMaster: I honestly don't get what that whole thing is saying 12:02:17 so, if you're running in MVRS, and you have two ATHRs running... what? 12:02:21 Deewiant, well you agree that MVRS ATHR and t needs to have a well defined order with respect to each other 12:02:28 right? 12:02:39 what do you mean by order 12:03:00 Deewiant, consider MVRS a sack that can contains thread and ATHRs. 12:03:13 consider ATHR a stack that can contains threads 12:03:23 is that clearer? 12:03:36 right, but what would ATHRs containing MVRSs even be? 12:03:52 multiple independent funge interpreters that can't talk to each other? 12:04:03 Deewiant, exactly the issue 12:05:28 -!- slereah has joined. 12:05:28 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:05:50 AnMaster: are mutexes shared across universes? 12:06:23 Deewiant, good question 12:06:28 I suspect they aren't 12:06:31 Deewiant: How does this MVRS thing work? How can the universes communicate? 12:06:41 Deewiant, actually they might be 12:06:54 really truly global would be easier for me to code 12:06:56 fizzie: RTFM, I don't know: http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcfunge2_manual.html#MVRS 12:07:12 AnMaster: what happened to the stuff we were discussing about threading MVRS universes anyway? 12:07:20 can all that be implemented with ATHR and the current MVRS? 12:07:35 Deewiant, isn't the current MVRS already async? 12:07:50 AnMaster: I don't know 12:07:53 anyway ATHR is a different approach to async threads than MVRS 12:08:07 AnMaster: but we wanted the option of sync vs. async 12:08:13 and I suspect Mike's impl is sync 12:08:45 The FM is not very verbose again. What does "go to another universe" mean, does it migrate the current 't'-style IP there or what? 12:08:49 Deewiant, ATHR won't allow sync 12:08:59 in fact I will write that it is bad style to implement it as sync 12:09:09 AnMaster: sure 12:09:17 Deewiant, ATHR may even be distributed across computers if you want 12:09:24 AnMaster: but for multiple MVRS universes, we want the option of running them in or out of sync 12:09:50 Deewiant, well true. But MVRSes in an ATHR wouldn't make sense 12:10:07 If each MVRS universe has its own set of ATHR processes, what would MVRS's "go to another universe" operation do? 12:10:39 well if each ATHR had it's own set of MVRS universes, how the heck would anything work at all! 12:11:21 Obviously it won't work at all; I'm just wondering how MVRS/ATHR play together in the "sensible" ordering. 12:11:53 fizzie, in fact what does G do at all really? 12:12:00 I have no idea. 12:12:05 "Goes to another universe". 12:12:20 as far as I remember it was moving the current ip to another universe, keeping it's current stack 12:12:21 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 12:12:23 or something like that 12:12:28 Yes, that's what I'd expect. 12:12:31 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:12:33 what about storage offset? 12:12:36 fizzie, that may have been J though 12:12:39 There's G which takes pos/delta and J which keeps it. 12:12:41 Deewiant, what about it? 12:12:48 kept or not? 12:12:55 Deewiant, in MVRS or ATHR? 12:13:01 G, MVRS 12:13:12 Deewiant, well no idea, ask Mike Riley 12:13:15 for ATHR, N/A I guess :-P 12:13:25 Deewiant, for ATHR it would be same as for t really 12:14:44 Anyway, if you have an IP in a ATHR process which suddenly decides to jump to another universe (and you really wish to specify the ATHR/MVRS interaction) you probably need to say something about in which process in the new universe the thread will appear, and what will happen to mutexes held and so on. Unless it takes the whole ATHR process with it, but that doesn't really make too much sense either. 12:15:28 fizzie, mutexes should be truly global 12:15:32 across everything 12:15:42 that is my conclusion 12:16:47 AnMaster: might be a good idea to take the MVRS ideas we had way back when and look over them, possibly mail Mike and somehow fit them and ATHR together 12:17:15 Deewiant, hm 12:19:14 ATHR sounds a lot simpler than the MVRS thing, though. It's just pthreads in funge form, with shared memory and all. (And with little synchronized 't'-threads inside them, but that's just a detail.) 12:19:59 fizzie, yes basically, and ATHR should allow different processes on different computers 12:20:05 in a distributed fashion 12:20:09 it may be insanely slow however 12:20:22 unless you locally cache funge space or something 12:20:48 with messages for when it is updated by someone else 12:21:12 but that would be blocking until all are updated 12:21:16 oh well 12:24:24 Since the ATHR processes are asynchronous, I'm not sure you really need to care precisely about when the funge-space modifications of other processes are visible. Explicit synchronization primitives like those mutexes would need some communication, though. 12:28:39 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:29:55 fizzie, hm good idea 12:31:03 Deewiant, what do you think about that ^ 12:31:17 what? 12:31:22 Since the ATHR processes are asynchronous, I'm not sure you really need to care precisely about when the funge-space modifications of other processes are visible. Explicit synchronization primitives like those mutexes would need some communication, though. 12:31:36 Deewiant, should the change to funge space be visible in all processes once g or p returns 12:31:41 or may it be async update 12:32:08 I think it should be 12:32:10 fizzie, anyway that means you need a sync all of funge-space instruction 12:32:31 Deewiant, hm that would make distributed ATHR slow 12:32:46 since otherwise you might just send a message to each node to update the local funge-space copy 12:33:06 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 12:33:10 (since not having a local copy would be insanely slow there) 12:33:12 well, since the environment is fundamentally global... 12:33:45 oh well 12:33:50 AnMaster: this is why I think fixing MVRS is a better idea 12:33:58 because then each process can have truly its own environment 12:34:20 Deewiant, well this doesn't aim to replace MVRS, it aims to do something different. 12:34:35 yes, and I don't think this is very useful :-) 12:34:43 Deewiant, so CCBI won't implement it? 12:34:43 even on a Funge scale ;-) 12:34:48 I didn't say that 12:34:51 TRDS is useless 12:34:51 haha 12:35:08 Deewiant, well rest assured that TRDS is undefined with respect to ATHR 12:36:40 Deewiant, however I think this can still work distributed and multi-core 12:36:47 consider a befunge-cluster :) 12:36:50 sure it can work 12:36:53 but it won't be very useful 12:36:58 I don't think, anyway 12:37:09 Deewiant, what is it missing that would make it useful? 12:37:16 I don't think it can be made useful 12:37:26 like said, funge is just fundamentally a global world 12:37:39 distributing it over multiple machines will only bog things down with communication 12:38:04 unless you split the world into bits somehow... but that's just going into MVRS territory 12:38:33 Deewiant, you could locally cache Funge-Space of course 12:38:42 and use message passing for sending updates to funge space 12:38:50 making that async would be better than sync imo 12:38:52 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:38:53 oh well 12:38:54 yes, and it's still going to be too much overhead for no gain IMO 12:39:09 Deewiant, ATHR will work well running on multiple cores of a single CPU however 12:39:22 even if not as distributed 12:39:45 will it? you still need to sync funge-space accesses - of which there are at least n, where n is the number of threads, /every tick/ 12:39:51 unless you make it async 12:40:00 in which case I'm not sure if it's useful for anything at all ;-) 12:40:06 Deewiant, well that is easy in my case 12:40:17 Erlang got atomic updates to so called ETS tables 12:40:22 easy to code, whatever, but slow as heck 12:40:27 which are the sort of hash tables I already use 12:40:33 Deewiant, actually not 12:40:39 they are used for db backend too 12:41:13 an additional two CAS instructions every tick will hurt a lot, I think 12:41:45 CAS Compare and Search? 12:41:47 err? 12:41:47 try it and see 12:41:51 no, compare and swap 12:42:04 CMPXCHG on the x86 12:42:09 Deewiant, so async updates to funge space then as I suggested but you didn't like 12:42:25 seems to me that pretty much everything is undefined with async 12:42:43 Deewiant, not really, still well defined as one of the changes will win 12:42:52 yes, but it's undefined which 12:42:56 in the end you won't end up with desynced funge-space 12:43:07 Deewiant, agreed, why did you think I provided mutexes? 12:43:30 -!- Dewio_ has changed nick to Dewi. 12:43:37 I think it'll just serve to make the code full of explicit syncing 12:43:41 without much benefit 12:43:52 Deewiant, Avoid side effects then ;P 12:43:53 but do give it a try, if you can find a use case that works then good :-P 12:43:59 Single Assignment Fungespace! 12:44:00 AnMaster: kinda hard in a language without local state 12:44:08 Deewiant, stack stacks? 12:44:26 AnMaster: every instruction executed comes from the global state 12:44:38 so there's a side effect /always/ 12:44:50 Deewiant, very true, but if you never modify funge space and use stack-stack instead to store data? 12:45:11 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 12:45:11 the interpreter can't know whether you modify funge space or not 12:45:26 so, again, "without much benefit" :-P 12:45:31 Deewiant, indeed it can't unless I actually implement that NX fingerprint I was thinking about 12:45:56 no-execute/no-write/no-read as flags for blocks of funge-space 12:46:08 would be silly yes 12:46:18 but that only makes it a better idea for funge 12:52:53 Deewiant, it seems that shared ets tables actually got good performance even when multiple threads update them, I asked in #erlang. ets tables can't be directly distributed however, so that would need some more work 12:52:54 Personally I think I could just fine use asynchronously running threads (with explicit synchronization primitives provided) in fungot; to run the brainfuck interpreter, for example. It just needs to allocate few rows of funge-space for each concurrently running brainfuck program to use as local state. 12:52:54 fizzie: i like cows 12:53:13 but they work across SMP erlang 12:53:16 and are fast 12:54:30 fizzie, hm 12:54:49 G and P for sync set? 12:54:54 set/get* 12:55:03 actually would just need P 12:55:20 fizzie: mind if I have a go at befungefriend sometime? 12:55:23 or G could mean it requested that other parts would sync any g/p 12:55:26 it sounds like a worthy project, i'd like to have a bash at it 12:55:44 ehird: Feel free to. 12:56:17 I'd have to do it in Qt or wxWidgets or something, though, for the "works on something other than my machine" factor. Blergh. Hmm... wait... I could just use one of the countless interfaces to Swing. 12:56:23 That'd be less suicidal-tendencies. 12:56:28 (Note: Swing can be set to use native widgets) 12:56:53 [Less talking, more coding.] 13:00:15 ehird, would that imply Java? 13:00:16 :( 13:00:23 AnMaster: No, not really - 13:00:31 also Swing doesn't use native here as far as I seen 13:00:35 You'd need Java, obviously, but I'd just use a Java bridge to use Swing 13:00:36 maybe it does on OS X 13:00:39 and write the rest in something else 13:00:40 AnMaster: it's a setting 13:00:43 up to the app for some reason 13:00:46 (Probably legacy...) 13:00:49 ok, odd 13:01:11 ehird, anyway, I suggest using GTK+, QT, or wxWidgets 13:01:15 they are rather portable 13:01:24 even GTK+ got native OS X support these days 13:01:28 AnMaster: No it doesn't. 13:01:34 It can draw on Quartz, yes - but that's in a beta stage 13:01:35 ehird, yes it is beta though 13:01:37 and it still doesn't look native. 13:01:46 ah QT or wxWidgets then? 13:01:49 And it never will, because a Cocoa-using theme engine would not work very well. 13:01:57 AnMaster: Yes, I've used QT before and dabbed in wxWidgets. 13:02:03 I'll use what seems to be the nicest API, really. 13:02:10 well QT is C++.. so that is a downside 13:02:15 not sure about wxWidgets 13:02:19 AnMaster: Language bindings, man. :-P 13:02:24 I'm not writing a funge IDE in C 13:02:31 ehird, yeah ok, python I guess 13:02:36 most likely 13:02:39 and pyqt exists at least 13:02:43 not sure for wx 13:02:56 wxPython. 13:03:00 worth noting - the Terminator terminal software uses the native Swing stuff: http://software.jessies.org/terminator/ - and does quite a good job at it, I used it on this machine for a while, it's pretty nice 13:03:14 The font rendering is a bit kooky on the Linux screenshot, but I imagine that could be fixed. 13:03:16 It's _Python_, of course it's got bindings to just about anythg. PyGTK and all. 13:03:26 (That screenshot seems to be from Ubuntu 5.something. Wowzers.) 13:03:42 fizzie: I tried to use SWIG to bind the Python C api to Python 13:03:44 It didn't work 13:06:21 Oh, worth noting about that Terminator software - 13:06:26 the guy's useraccount is "elliotth"! 13:06:36 fizzie: I tried to use SWIG to bind the Python C api to Python <-- heh... 13:06:46 How many people have Elliott as a first name with the same spelling and also a surname starting in h? 13:06:49 Not many. :-P 13:07:33 ehird, and yes font looks bad I agree 13:07:53 QT gets the font "correct" here and same on any other OS I seen 13:09:09 AnMaster: my point was that even if you get the most optimal performance possible it's a waste of time 13:09:18 Deewiant, not really 13:09:56 AnMaster: Yes, I have used Qt. But it is subtly nonnative on OS X. 13:10:07 It doesn't actually use native widgets... it just draws its lookalikes. 13:10:12 It's especially noticable in right-click menus. 13:10:28 (Before you say anything: shut up, this is #esoteric, I can be pednatic) 13:10:30 *pedantic 13:11:12 ehird, hm wxwidgets then? 13:12:07 wxwidgets has a nicer api than qt, but it does the same thing as Qt (just pretends), except whereas you wouldn't really notice with Qt, wxwidgets looks like someone put one of those OS X imitation skins on to windows 13:12:22 ehird, so QT then! 13:12:51 But Swing has a semi-nice API and is properly native (or at least a damn good imitation) on everything. :-P 13:12:58 ehird, really swing doesn't look good at all on linux, since even when set to look like native, it looks like a bad copy of GTK 13:12:59 Also Java _is_ open source. 13:13:04 it doesn't even look like good GTK 13:13:13 AnMaster: Um, a minute ago you were saying you didn't know it could go native. 13:13:15 and I don't consider GTK very native 13:13:49 ehird, a minute ago I hadn't checked out an example in jdk that allows changing the theme for swign 13:13:51 swing* 13:14:29 afk for a bit 13:14:42 I could just leave Swing at its default, non-native theme on X11 then. As X11 has absolutely no "native" widgets, that would be valid. 13:15:11 ehird, oh it have natives ones 13:15:15 as used in some X tools 13:15:28 AnMaster: No, those are Athena, I think. 13:15:29 Or Xt. 13:15:32 either way, not actually native x11. 13:15:42 Xt is bundled with x11, yes, but xlib does not have any widgets 13:15:51 xfontsel 13:15:53 for example 13:15:55 yes 13:15:57 that's xt 13:16:08 xterm too, btw. 13:16:13 indeed 13:16:16 and xclock 13:16:19 maybe 13:16:55 yes it links libxt 13:18:12 ehird, also xlib is kind of outdated, it is to be replaced with xcb 13:18:18 yes 13:18:26 in fact in last X release xlib is a wrapper for xcb iirc 13:18:36 i wanna make an app that directly talks to the x server 13:18:37 >:D 13:18:54 ehird, not after you read the protocol... 13:18:59 I promise you that 13:18:59 :D 13:19:06 AnMaster: one thing with xcb is it's reaaaaaaaaaally low level 13:19:17 a basic xlib program is like 30 lines and pretty readable 13:19:19 ehird, yes, so is xlib 13:19:27 xcb is a mess of stuff 13:19:32 but i guess that's ok 13:19:38 if you want highlevel, why aren't you using a toolkit 13:19:39 I thought it was xlib that was the mess? 13:19:43 ehird, indeed 13:19:55 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XCB#Example vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xlib#Example 13:19:59 to me the later is more understandable 13:20:06 * AnMaster checks 13:20:51 A friend wrote "directly to a socket with linux syscalls" X11 thing to open a suitable OpenGL surface, because he didn't like the overhead of xlib. 13:20:51 you are correct 13:21:01 fizzie: overhead? 13:21:04 crazy guy. 13:21:05 haha 13:21:10 * AnMaster agrees with ehird 13:21:19 I'm so glad I have a computer that is less than 20 years old : 13:21:20 :D 13:21:22 "because I can" would be the only valid reason for that 13:21:28 IMO 13:21:43 AnMaster: ... 13:21:46 [[* AnMaster agrees with ehird]] 13:21:51 ehird, yes? 13:21:53 stop exploding the universe, ok? 13:21:57 you did that a week or so ago 13:21:58 on that specific point 13:21:59 really, be more thoughtful 13:22:14 ehird, well you have a paradox here 13:22:18 " really, be more thoughtful" 13:22:23 should I agree or disagree with that? 13:22:36 um 13:22:36 either way will be a paradox according to you 13:22:42 AnMaster: do both 13:22:45 "maybe" 13:23:01 ehird, if I did that I would agree with your suggestion to do both 13:23:07 ... 13:23:09 i retract that suggestion 13:23:19 I agree that was a good action 13:23:21 ;P 13:23:27 * ehird kills AnMaster 13:23:31 die :| 13:23:35 mr PARADOX 13:23:43 * AnMaster disagrees and does not die 13:24:11 ehird, anyway it was you that caused the paradox 13:24:23 by saying something that made sense, for once 13:24:41 ;P 13:25:56 turtle moron avocado 13:26:19 ehird, no idea what you meant with that 13:26:23 good 13:26:33 ehird, care to explain it 13:26:34 ? 13:26:44 no 13:26:48 ehird, why not? 13:26:56 because you suck! ;d 13:26:57 *:D 13:27:26 ehird, you forgot the ~ at the end 13:27:33 that was sarcasm? :| 13:27:47 ehird, well I guess so, since it wasn't truth 13:33:20 MEANWHILE 13:33:21 rss sucks 13:33:26 atom sucks slightly less 13:33:47 Well. 13:33:52 RSS doesn't even mean anything. 13:33:53 http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/02/04/incompatible-rss 13:34:05 9 incompatible versions of RSS, some even sharing versions! 13:34:06 WOOOOOO! 13:43:39 -!- jix has joined. 13:53:46 http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/cartoonlounge/2008/10/cartoonoff-xkcd.html The New Yorker challenges xkcd to a comic-off. 13:57:02 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 13:57:43 Deewiant, fizzie, new draft: http://rafb.net/p/hTJxdL27.html 13:58:16 [[In this specification the word process is used to indicate an "async thread", 13:58:16 unlike a normal Funge thread created by t (called thread in this specification). 13:58:16 ]] 13:58:18 that is confusing 13:58:19 call them threads. 13:58:31 ehird, that would confuse with t-style threads 13:58:42 since we need to discuss interaction with those threads 13:59:02 AnMaster: So call them what they are 13:59:04 "native threads" 13:59:08 or 'green threads' 13:59:14 t-style threads can be referred to as "IPs", though. 13:59:16 ehird, that is implementation defined 13:59:20 fizzie, ah true 13:59:40 Are you sure you didn't just inherit the "process" word from Erlang? :p 13:59:40 AnMaster: call them bogonomons then 13:59:52 fizzie: he has erlang on the brain. so probaly 13:59:54 *probably 14:00:12 fizzie, I agree it affected my thinking of course, such as I got the name mutex from pthreads 14:00:17 they are called "locks" in erlang 14:00:49 i am a delicious bogomips 14:00:58 in flight 14:01:57 Bogomips-737? 14:02:19 sssssssss 14:02:23 delicious 14:02:24 For some reason that reminded me about the "I am an atomic playboy" line of second reality, even though there's not much in common with them except the "I am a" prefix. 14:02:27 ^_^ 14:02:51 fizzie, err "second reality"? 14:02:57 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Reality 14:02:58 google lol 14:03:07 That, yes. 14:03:22 Oh, it was "I am _not_ an". 14:03:28 Even worse, I misremembered it. 14:03:49 It's there in the "Magnifying and rotating head" section. (Didn't know wikipedia had a _that_ through article about it.) 14:04:16 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G_aUxbbqWU Jewtube of it 14:04:19 I wonder if there's been notability debates. 14:04:27 also, yes. 14:04:32 for all X, there has been notability debates about X 14:04:37 unless X is hitler or churchill 14:04:39 or dubya 14:07:07 is that chur-chill or chruch-ill, or even churc-hill? 14:07:17 I mean the etymology 14:07:38 church-hill... i think... 14:07:45 well there is a h missing then 14:07:45 if you're talking about prononuciation 14:07:46 :P 14:07:55 and no, well, you pronounce it churchill 14:07:56 :P 14:08:38 Sad fact: 14:08:48 Churchill insurance comes before Churchill's WP article on google for "churchill" 14:09:14 yeah sad... 14:09:56 (iirc, a survey of kids recently showed that kids knew "churchill" as the talking dog plush thing from the churchill adverts, not even thinking about the prime minister) 14:10:13 lol@culture 14:10:39 I never heard of that insurance company before now... 14:10:50 As far as I know it's a UK thing. 14:11:26 i don't believe in churches 14:11:33 oklopol: as in, they don't exist? 14:11:38 yes 14:11:43 oklopol: i agree 14:11:56 i mean, i've been to one, but it didn't seem too real imo 14:12:04 probably one of those fake churches 14:12:09 yes most likely 14:12:09 did the bishop move diagonally? 14:12:10 bet not 14:12:19 i didn't even see a bishop 14:13:17 http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20081015-opera-study-only-4-13-of-the-web-is-standards-compliant.html <-- ...but if you ask idiots, they'll tell you "browsers should just reject invalid pages and the pressure would make all the web become compliant overnight"! 14:13:21 #math is pretty helpful, "can you give me a hint on X?" "what about it?" "well how to *do* it" "it can be done." 14:13:36 lol@interweb 14:14:06 oklopol: hate places like that, i asked a q the other day and I ask "i can't use X because of why what should I do?" and i got the reply "don't use X" 14:14:26 For some reason I begin to feel slightly nauseous whenever I'm in an Orthodox Christian church. Doesn't happen in other places; might be all that incence. 14:14:53 fizzie: or it might be the LIES AND DECEIT FOR THE PURPOSE OF CONTROL BEHIND THE MYTHS THEY TEACH YOU 14:14:56 ... probably not :D 14:15:05 Probably not, as it doesn't happen in other churches. 14:15:07 "Uh, I mean..." 14:15:40 fizzie: Perhaps it's to do with the percentage of priests raping little boys at the time. Pick a better time to go in those churches. 14:15:40 :-| 14:16:15 I thought that was mostly a Catholic thing. Don't know. 14:16:34 "You know, that religion with the raping priests." 14:16:44 Heh, that might be offensive. 14:16:50 fizzie: They're modernizing, trying to bring in new ideas and such. 14:16:52 Tolerance and all htat. 14:16:53 *that 14:21:33 I think I'll have to go and fetch our new bathroom faucet now. (They sent us a wrong kind of one.) 14:32:52 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/16/android_kill_switch/ 14:32:53 !! 14:33:02 There goes the thinking that Android would be a nicer, more open platform than iPhone. 14:33:07 Unless the dear reg is hyperboling again. 14:34:54 I saw a funny add last year for a protestant church in the newspaper 14:35:27 oh? 14:36:06 it was in Swedish, but basically it looked like an ISP ad. The text said something like: "Wireless - Free connection to god all the time" "Unlimited transfer rate for prayer" and "Free support at your local church." 14:36:19 heh 14:36:24 that's factually incorrect 14:36:27 humans can only pray so fast... 14:37:56 ehird, well, I said "said something like", I don't remember the exact wording. So it *may* be a misquotation. But it was similar to that 14:38:10 :-D 14:38:16 ehird, also computers can only handle data so fast too 14:38:31 Well yeah... that's why there aren't any ISPs offering unlimited transfer rate 14:38:40 Seriously, you'd get like...500 TB/sec 14:38:59 (Unmetered bandwidth, sure. I have that.) 14:39:17 ehird, indeed, it may have been unlimited transfer quota or such 14:39:43 If I was god I'd kick the ass of some whiny guy who prayed whenever he tripped and fell :D 14:40:21 (And it looks like an isp ad by having a bunch of cables in the ad.) 14:40:26 (and the wording of course) 14:40:45 ehird, anyway the point was that it was rather funny 14:41:15 Well, a bunch of cables is just incorrect (things are generally funnier when they are misleading but correct). 14:41:32 Unless this church was a weird cult that made you swallow an ethernet cable plugged into god, I guess. 14:41:36 ehird, however consider may ISP ads have a bunch of cable in it 14:41:53 also it was the protestant church 14:48:06 ehird, actually the exact wording seems to have been "Wireless\nPrayer is free\nUnmetered bandwidth\nAlways conencted\nPray when you want, where you want and how you want\n\nFree support in all churches\nThe Swedish church\nStockholms stift" (stift is the name for the area that one bishop handles or something like that iirc) 14:48:16 Also \n indicates newline 14:48:24 orly :P 14:48:30 AnMaster: gee really 14:48:33 i thought it meant nostril 14:48:33 oh and "unmetered bandwidth" would actually translate to "unlimited bandwith" 14:48:43 ehird, I just didn't know how to translate it 14:48:46 to English 14:48:54 What, newline? :-P 14:49:00 ehird, the "stift" 14:49:21 ehird, anyway if I hadn't said that you would have said "really did the ad use \n literally?" or something 14:49:21 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:49:41 That would be awesome 14:49:50 ehird, well it didn't 14:51:03 "The preliminary data published today by Opera provides some intriguing statistics about the use of specific HTML elements. Among the pages analyzed by MAMA, the most popular HTML tags were HEAD, TITLE, HTML, BODY, A, META, IMG, AND TABLE. The list of least popular tags includes VAR, DEL, AND BDO." 14:51:04 hm 14:51:13 someone linked that page above 14:51:22 anyway this makes me wonder what is wrong with

14:51:42 I linked it. 14:51:46 ehird, ah yes 14:51:47 And nothing, but people don't care about it. 14:52:00 ehird, err? How else to separate paragraphs? 14:52:05 AnMaster:

14:52:15 ugh 14:52:18 It's silly, it's unsemantic, but nobody cares. 14:52:26 well I care ;P 14:52:35 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:52:45 i care a negative amount, you should use

*because* it's worse for that purpose. 14:52:52 oklopol: but you're oklopol 14:53:02 oklopol, hey, this is #esoteric, but the whole world isn't #esoteric 14:53:07 yes it is 14:53:12 haha, i just checked the vjn homepage 14:53:13
14:53:15 seriously? 14:53:15 :D 14:53:23 what :D 14:53:29 oklopol: vjn.fi uses
14:53:32 ehird, and this indicates that because the whole world does it the incorrect way we should all write strictly correct html 14:53:35 that's neither html nor xhtml XD 14:53:36 because no one else does 14:53:37 :P 14:53:43 :D 14:53:44 AnMaster: i do :\ 14:53:46 yeah that's kinda cool 14:53:50 ehird, so do I 14:53:55 ehird, but we are all #esoteric 14:54:01 zomg rly 14:54:05 and I said we should, since nobody else does 14:54:08 a guy in our group used that for a while, until i told them it means nothing 14:54:17 haha 14:54:19 seems it's on the front page now, i find that a good thing 14:54:21 :D 14:54:27 maybe it's reverse-self-closing 14:54:31 it sort of... self-opens 14:55:06 strangely, vjn.fi actually uses p and css 14:55:40 A US judge has thrown out a case against God, ruling that because the defendant has no address, legal papers cannot be served. 14:55:40 -- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7673591.stm 14:56:15 ehird: the guy who used
is more the big picture type, the css is pretty good 14:56:39 oklopol: do you have committees working on that site 14:56:45 :D 14:57:00 no, we don't 14:58:32 ehird, about that link... 14:58:35 "Only in US" 14:58:41 what? 14:58:43 the bbc link? 14:58:54 ehird, only an American would be that mad yeah 14:58:57 oh 14:59:00 i thought you meant 14:59:06 the link didn't let you in XD 14:59:07 the country of the suing! 14:59:17 AnMaster: it wasn't a sueing 14:59:21 *suing 14:59:27 also i think it was to make a point, you know 14:59:27 what was it then? 14:59:31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernie_Chambers 14:59:34 AnMaster: it was a lawsuit 14:59:45 ehird, ah right, does "suing" mean something else? 14:59:58 AnMaster: yeah 15:00:02 meaning? 15:00:11 this is where i link you to the wikipedia page 15:00:16 wait 15:00:18 i read what you said wrong 15:00:18 :D 15:00:31 ehird, um? 15:00:43 There is no page titled "suing". 15:00:54 i read what you said wrong <- dis 15:00:56 ah 15:01:14 There is no page titled "i read what you said wrong". 15:01:18 ;P 15:01:33 ååååååååååååååååååååååååå 15:02:01 ehird, if you meant it as aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.... with some extra effect then it doesn't work 15:02:13 å is ppronouncedvery differently 15:02:15 err 15:02:15 wtf 15:02:21 ispell went mad 15:02:22 no i was just having fun 15:02:35 å is pronounced very differently 15:02:38 was what I menat 15:02:41 meanwhile i'm trying to make the most minimal feed reader ever and now I want to kill myself :D 15:02:50 however the spelling correction breaks after an unicode char 15:02:51 it seems 15:02:51 stupid ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff rss atom fsfsfsfsdjfkdsf 15:02:55 which plain sucks 15:03:05 ehird, I just use akregator 15:03:38 AnMaster: yeah, but i don't think this'll be too hard from where i am now, also i used netnewswire but i want something way more minimal 15:07:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | BABABABDBDBABABBDBBABBDBABDDD. 15:07:44 ehird, care to look up context for the topic optbot just set? 15:07:44 AnMaster: more like german 15:08:05 Sure. 15:08:15 ehird, thanks 15:08:54 08.03.15:14:47:21 BABABABDBDBABABBDBBABBDBABDDD 15:08:56 How predictable. 15:09:07 ehird, heh, and in what context whas that? 15:09:20 14:44:38 Deewiant, wow, this is pretty 15:09:20 14:44:52 Assuming that instructions without any particular concurrency-related behaviour, such as ^>v<#, take one tick. 15:09:21 14:44:52 Will continue to produce textual output, so strings must work correctly where concurrency is concerned: "a b" should take 5 ticks, 'a should take 1. 15:09:21 14:44:52 GGGGGGOGOGOGOGOGOGOOGOOGOOGOOGOOGOODGOODGOODGOODGOODGOODGO:ODGO:ODGO:ODGO:ODGO 15:09:23 14:45:01 Deewiant, that's good I assume? :D 15:09:24 I mean was it ah 15:09:25 14:45:02 ;) 15:09:27 ah 15:09:27 14:47:21 BABABABDBDBABABBDBBABBDBABDDD 15:09:28 ok 15:09:31 14:49:03 ehird, found it, ip didn't move correctly after split 15:09:31 right 15:10:08 well that makes sense 15:23:38 http://inamidst.com/stuff/2008/thing.pl 15:23:41 perython! 15:33:04 ehird, is it a polygot? or? 15:33:12 nope 15:33:13 it's just python 15:33:20 but it looks like perl 15:33:30 yeah 15:33:37 :-12 is crazy 15:33:55 wait, no 15:33:57 ehird, and what does that mean? 15:34:00 thought that was ::-12 15:34:09 AnMaster: [:-12] is a slice with an implicit first 0, that is 15:34:11 [0 : -12] 15:34:16 and with ::? 15:34:16 so you get all but the last 12 chars 15:34:29 well, ::-1 reverses 15:34:34 :: is a bit complex... 15:34:39 and ::-12? 15:34:45 >>> 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz'[::-12] 15:34:45 'znb' 15:34:45 :D 15:34:54 i don't know how that works either 15:34:57 ah 15:35:02 http://www.python.org/doc/2.3/whatsnew/section-slices.html 15:35:04 there 15:35:10 ehird, you should ask #python? 15:35:21 http://www.python.org/doc/2.3/whatsnew/section-slices.html 15:35:31 ehird, it only mentions ::-1 15:35:35 not any other level 15:35:36 no it does not. 15:35:40 please actually read it 15:35:41 :| 15:35:52 ehird, so searching for ::- using browser doesn't work? 15:36:03 sometimes there is a thing called english 15:36:05 formatted into prose 15:36:07 sometimes you read it 15:36:09 with your eyes and your brain. 15:36:16 ehird, ah so stride of -12 15:36:19 or 12 from end 15:36:22 yes 15:36:23 well that makes sense 15:36:34 though I agree syntax is slightly mad for that 15:36:58 ehird, btw would a perl/python polygot be possible? 15:37:13 AnMaster: No. 15:37:16 Well, possibly. 15:37:19 But most likely not. 15:37:26 without considering the #! line I mean 15:37:38 oh well 15:54:24 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:04:13 fizzie and Deewiant are you there? 16:20:38 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 16:22:21 ehird, there? 16:22:27 yes. 16:22:35 remember that MKRY fingerprint you made? 16:22:43 or was it MKRL 16:22:44 anyway 16:22:47 it was too well defined 16:22:53 so it doesn't work as a parody ;P 16:23:10 * oklopol didn't get it 16:23:13 how was it too well defined 16:23:25 http://tusho.net/mkry/ is as vague as you can get 16:24:04 ehird, it is actually implementable from that spec 16:24:20 I can't see how to make it more vague, but really it is easy to implement from that 16:24:20 mmmmm... not really 16:24:29 AnMaster: only because i clarified it to you 16:24:32 in here 16:24:44 ehird, no I can easily see how it would work from that spec 16:24:53 AnMaster: how do you know E doesn't push like 'eeeee' or 'hhhhhh' 16:24:58 nothing to say that it's random per character 16:25:14 ehird, well apart from that it is clear 16:25:23 its tiny, "that" is a big part 16:25:24 :-) 16:47:59 ehird, is "implementors" the right word for "a person making an implementation of something"? 16:48:21 Implementor, yes. 16:48:28 and in plural? 16:48:36 just aspell doesn't like it 16:48:45 nor implementor 16:48:55 shrug 16:48:55 :P 16:49:01 hm en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implementer 16:49:23 Oh. 16:49:27 kay then... 16:49:29 that is what a google gives 16:49:33 hm 16:49:41 AnMaster: i'd just say "implementors" 16:50:09 both are acceptable, according to dictonary.com 16:51:16 i wouldn't trust dictonary.com on this matter 16:51:37 i would 16:52:32 oklopol, why not? 16:52:34 ehird, why? 16:52:37 http://www.dictonary.com/ well, glasses are a sign of intelligence, i guess 16:52:56 ah, you're picking on a typo 16:52:57 ha ha ha. 16:52:58 oklopol, yes of course I always knew that. Thanks 16:53:07 asztal dictionary.com 16:53:10 ^ meant 16:53:15 i know 16:53:28 oklopol, also do you have glasses? 16:53:49 it's just dictonary could be a dyslexic dictionary, o and e could easily have swapped there 16:54:03 it was a *relevant* joke based on the typo 16:54:10 hehe 16:54:12 oklopol, yep 16:54:17 but still 16:54:23 do you have glasses? 16:54:38 umm no, glasses and allergies are for lesser people 16:54:48 you know, i'm a pol 16:54:49 err 16:54:50 i mean 16:54:53 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklogod. 16:55:15 my eyes are both perfect and reaaaally sucky 16:55:39 occasionally, they simply lose the ability to ...sharpen? whazzz the term now 16:55:56 but, usually i see like a bear with large glasses 16:55:59 really well that is 16:56:39 why do you ask? 17:00:13 oklogod, as you didn 17:00:21 well 17:00:23 basically 17:00:41 you wouldn't actually consider glasses a sign of intelligence then? 17:00:46 Since you don't wear them yourself 17:00:47 ;P 17:00:50 i wouldn't? 17:01:13 oklogod, obviously you only would if you needed them yourself 17:01:30 uhhuh? 17:01:36 are you confusing implication and equivalence? 17:01:54 oklogod, aren't you? 17:02:04 also I suggest you clarify that. 17:02:15 However there is no connection I think. 17:02:29 why would i only consider glasses a sign of intelligence if i had ones myself? 17:02:33 and I *do* wear glasses 17:02:42 oklogod, isn't that pretty clear? 17:02:54 nope 17:03:16 as a god you would be omniscient (or whatever it is called, omnipotent?) so I wouldn't need explaining 17:03:50 umm, so they can't be a sign of intelligence, because if they were, i couldn't be intelligent without them? 17:04:11 oklogod, No... now you are just confusing the issue even more 17:04:20 glasses => intelligence doesn't rule out !glasses ^ intelligence 17:04:42 (not glasses) bitwise_xor intelligence 17:04:44 huh? 17:04:51 oh sorry, ^ as in and 17:04:54 & 17:05:08 (logical_not glasses) bitwise_and intelligence 17:05:11 still not very clear 17:05:41 it's not? "not to have glasses and still be intelligent" 17:05:52 AnMaster is wrong 17:05:55 oklogod is right 17:06:01 oklogod, I suggest they are two uncorrelated variables. 17:06:19 oklogod is saying: 17:06:23 AnMaster: i suggest you learn the difference between implication and equivalence 17:06:36 (glasses => intelligence) & !(!glasses => !intelligence) 17:06:37 and also i suggest you learn to ski and buy a boat 17:06:40 and i agree with oklogod 17:06:45 he needs to learn thus 17:06:58 ehird, well what you just said was pretty clear 17:07:23 glasses implies intelligence, but lack of them doesn't implies lack intelligence 17:07:31 well, to be more precise, !((glasses => intelligence) => !(!glasses => !intelligence)) 17:07:33 just his use of bitwise operations in that were confusing 17:07:43 oklogod, also clear 17:07:44 ... 17:07:47 he never used bitwise operators 17:07:53 some things are less clear than others 17:07:55 ehird, yes ^ is bitwise xor 17:07:58 just because all you can fucking think in is C does not mean ^ = xor and & = bitwise and 17:08:03 ^ is AND in logic 17:08:17 ehird, well he didn't state what language he used 17:08:29 AnMaster: so make a reasonable fucking assumption and see it's logic from the context 17:08:31 i apologized for ^, that could've meant xor, because had i had xors, i would probably have used ^ for them. 17:08:38 glasses => intelligence doesn't rule out !glasses ^ intelligence 17:08:39 well 17:08:39 => 17:08:47 doesn't make sense as equal to or greater than in that context 17:08:51 nor does a bitwise operator 17:08:59 you can pretty damn reasonably conclude it's using the language of logic 17:09:15 ehird, this is #esoteric, stuff doesn't always make sense 17:09:29 -!- oklogod has changed nick to oklopol. 17:09:33 that's always your excuse for being unreasonable 17:09:41 #esoteric isn't about being intentionally annoying 17:09:53 i should be more careful, i'm beginning to show classic signs of narcism 17:10:05 oklopol: but you are god. 17:10:11 the god ofo ko. 17:10:27 ofo oko otototo 17:10:52 *of oko 17:11:46 heh, seems the universe likes boosting my ego, ex is asking for sex :D 17:12:57 oklopol, should have decided not to become ex then maybe? 17:14:53 why? 17:14:59 oh well 17:15:40 thought so. 17:26:02 i want to code :| 17:26:16 Does pthreads allow any form of message passing? 17:26:21 why is there no time for codes anymore 17:26:23 As in not shared memory. 17:30:46 -!- ab5tract has joined. 17:35:38 -!- Corun has joined. 17:45:29 I think there's just mutexes, condition variables and the shared memory; but you can easily build message queues out of those. 17:50:51 -!- slereah has joined. 17:50:52 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:57:46 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:58:53 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 18:06:40 Remind me sometime to write the 'u' program. 18:06:50 (Lets you use URIs with regular utilities, like:) 18:07:05 $ u cp http://google.com/ googles-index-page.html 18:07:19 $ u echo "hi" > http://google.com/ # uses PUT or whatever 18:07:22 hmm 18:07:25 that last one would be hard 18:07:31 guess i'd need to modify zsh 18:07:32 humbug 18:08:29 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:08:46 You could use some sort of indication in the "file" name to indicate what you want to do with the file (like "cp data PUT:http://google.com") but it's not nearly as pretty then. 18:08:57 Well yeah... 18:09:01 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 18:09:09 But then I could just write a funky FS-like thing called /u/ 18:09:21 cat /u/http:/google.com 18:12:38 Fuse seems to have a 'httpfs' but it's sadly just "mount a single http:// URL somewhere". 18:12:59 And of course smbsh does that "hook to open and friends" trickery to provide their /smb magic-directory. 18:15:28 -!- Corun_ has joined. 18:16:01 fizzie: /u/ is a bit of an ugly solution, though. 18:16:17 really, all tools should just accept URIs as well as files :P 18:16:26 Just treat filepaths as file:// 18:19:48 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has joined. 18:29:45 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:44:01 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:45:17 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 18:45:20 -!- olsner has joined. 18:46:52 fizzie, still there? 18:48:15 guess i'd need to modify zsh 18:48:15 humbug 18:48:16 um 18:48:19 you use zsh? 18:48:22 yes? 18:48:37 and? 18:48:39 would you prefer emacs or vi if those where the only existing editors? 18:48:47 ed 18:48:51 or emacs vs. vim 18:48:51 rather 18:48:56 Still here. 18:49:02 ehird, as I said "if those were the only existing editors" 18:49:21 fizzie, http://rafb.net/p/h4khwC72.html 18:49:32 AnMaster: well, those are written in C, so I guess there's a c compiler too... i'd write my own 18:49:35 fizzie, comments on this last version? Any fingerprints need to be listed as well? 18:50:06 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 18:50:07 ehird, really? But what if the system lacked a C compiler, maybe it was a binary distro with no toolchain installed, nor any internet connection 18:50:18 AnMaster: I'd throw the computer out of the window. 18:50:24 :-P 18:50:32 Not of any use to me/ 18:50:34 ehird: If you really prefer ed, I'd recommend you to choose vim out of those two, since it has an 'ex' mode, and 'ex' is somewhat like 'ed'. 18:50:42 ehird, ok then, which editor is best of emacs and vim if you have to choose? 18:50:43 fizzie: No, I don't really 18:50:52 AnMaster: depends on the usecase. 18:51:05 ehird, text editor, programming and so on 18:51:10 i use vi no matter what editor i use, for quickly tweaking config files 18:51:19 and when i'm at the console and similar 18:51:28 other than that, for actual coding, i'd go for emacs 18:51:33 interesting 18:51:34 vi is a sysadmins tool, emacs is a coders tool 18:51:47 and that sentence needs some apostrophes 18:51:48 ehird, sh would you go for bash for quick tasks and zsh for more complex ones? 18:51:50 so* 18:51:53 not sh 18:51:53 AnMaster: no 18:51:55 though... 18:51:57 because zsh scales 18:52:03 from trivial stuff to complex stuff 18:52:12 ehird, well zsh is rather large 18:52:17 I'd even call it bloated sometimes 18:52:20 I don't notice the largeness. 18:52:23 for some tasks 18:52:24 I do when using, e.g. emacs. 18:52:37 ehird, it got a built in ftp client even... 18:52:43 zsh that is 18:52:57 No, it's got a builtin * client. 18:52:59 Where * = everything. 18:53:02 built in as a loadable module 18:53:02 Except it's modular. 18:53:07 yes 18:53:08 zshzftpsys Zsh built-in FTP client 18:53:15 from man zsh 18:53:17 AnMaster: I can autocomplete remote paths with scp. 18:53:24 ehird, so can I under bash 18:53:25 Of course it has tons of features, but they're modular. 18:53:27 your point? 18:53:36 AnMaster: I'm just saying that of course it has a ton of stuff like that. 18:53:38 That's what zsh is about. 18:53:47 But it's not like they're cluttering up the codebase, they're modular. 18:53:52 And they don't interfere with anything else. 18:53:54 What is the problem? 18:54:19 ehird, and so does bash, bash-completion is a flexible and fairly simple framework, that allow bash functions that generate possible completions for specific commands 18:54:28 Yes. That's completion. 18:54:43 and you can do everything you can do in zsh in bash 18:54:50 both are in theory tc 18:54:53 afaik 18:55:04 The day you show me a bash installation that can do everything zsh does without resorting to the absurd TC argument is the day I don't switch because zsh has done it all for years already and bash doesn't offer any further advantages. 18:55:05 or rather BSMs in reality 18:55:35 ehird, well tc argument is used a lot in this channel 18:55:37 by everyone 18:55:45 mmnope 18:55:53 ehird, mostly for esolangs 18:55:54 just you use it in a non-joke discussion 18:55:59 that is not the TC argument 18:56:10 the tc argument is "well, that's irrelevant, they are both TC, therefore they are equally as good" 18:56:11 = bullshit 18:56:30 ehird, where did I say that exact quote? 18:56:42 You didn't. 18:56:58 ehird, I never claimed it was as easy to do it in both those languages 18:56:58 Humans do this thing called "interpretation" whereby we change english text into semantic graphs in our head. 18:57:32 ehird, idea how to solve: Talk in semantic graphs, somewhat like scheme is written in a parsing tree more or less 18:58:16 it should be a fairly interesting constructed language, if it hasn't already been done 18:58:39 AnMaster: If you feel like it, I'd add something like the pthreads condition variables. I'm sure you can build those already with the tools you have, but it's nontrivial. (The constructions I can immediately think of need to atomically unlock one mutex and try to lock another one.) Can't think of any other-fingerprint issues right now. 18:58:55 how does those variables work fizzie? 19:00:05 fizzie, since erlang mostly use message passing, only global variable is funge-space really 19:00:30 fizzie, but couldn't P be used to sync set a variable to act as a conditional? 19:00:43 in combination with C possibly 19:01:07 Yes, but you can't atomically unlock a mutex and then wait on it. Probably solvable by busy-loop-polling instead of waiting, but that's just nasty. 19:01:52 fizzie, well can you tell me how those condition variables really work then? I can't find any man page for them here, plenty for mutexes and semaphores, but nothing for such variables 19:02:06 Condition variables just give you an object you can wait on, and other threads can then "signal/broadcast" on that object so that the waiting thread (or threads) is started. 19:02:26 fizzie, and what are the relevant pthread functions for that? 19:02:56 pthread_cond_wait/timedwait for waiting, signal/broadcast for releasing waiting threads (signal == one, broadcast == all), and of course the usual _init for creating one. 19:03:23 The sleep/resume functions seem to have gone? 19:04:02 If you made sleep release all held locks, and to automatically reacquire them when the thread is resumed, you'd basically have given a single condition variable per thread. 19:07:54 fizzie, well sleep/resume could be added, but I was unsure if it was needed 19:08:42 fizzie, also just sleep, with optional release, and allow another thread to resume it, would be easy 19:08:54 harder to reacquire all locks 19:09:02 easy to cause dead-lock 19:09:29 It's always easy to cause deadlocks with explicit synchronization code, that's pretty much a given. 19:09:40 true 19:10:42 Some form of waiting (other than simply waiting for a locked mutex to become true -- for one thing, that sort of wait can only be ended by the thread owning the lock, and there's no atomic "release this controlling mutex before waiting" thing) could be helpful, anyway. 19:11:10 hm yeah 19:11:15 fizzie, maybe also wait with timeout? 19:11:29 Maybe. 19:11:44 that would be trivial in erlang 19:11:45 Of course just aping the pthreads API is not inherently very esoteric. OTOH, I'd at least almost know how to use it. :p 19:11:49 not sure about pthreads 19:12:05 fizzie, does pthreads mutexes have timeout? 19:12:33 seems they don't? 19:12:41 oh timedlock 19:12:42 duh 19:12:45 :-) 19:12:48 Also cond_timedwait. 19:13:02 damn :P 19:13:56 fizzie, anyway using G P and C should allow building almost any form of syncing I think? 19:14:06 compare-and-exchange is quite powerful I read somewhere 19:14:37 Powerful, yes, but a lot of the constructions involve busy-waiting for something to happen in the shared memory. 19:14:47 (it was some scientific article comparing what sort of lockless atomic operations could be used to simulate other lockless atomic operations) 19:14:55 (and compare and exchange was the most powerful iirc) 19:15:07 fizzie, I could provide inc/dec easily too 19:15:12 on a funge-space cell 19:15:30 that would return the new value due to erlang's api 19:15:33 not the old one 19:15:43 of course old one would be easy too 19:15:49 It's still nice to have something that can be used to tell the scheduler "hey, don't bother waking me up until ". 19:16:12 fizzie, yes I agree, but it should be original, not just ape pthreads 19:16:15 got any good idea? 19:16:18 -!- Corun_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:16:33 -!- Corun has joined. 19:16:37 fizzie, erlang got waiting for message of course 19:16:57 so maybe allow waiting for another thread to send a specific global number? 19:17:45 You could add built-in message queues (with a "wait for a message" thing) that can deliver one funge cell to the named (ID) thread. 19:17:47 fizzie, like W (n) - block until another thread signals the number n is received 19:18:00 and I for sigNal 19:18:28 Well, that's maybe stranger, so just use that. 19:19:43 err 19:19:46 sIgnal 19:19:49 of course 19:19:55 Although I'm not sure if it would be nice to have something that can really do that atomic "unlock this mutex before waiting, reacquire it afterwards" operation. 19:20:09 fizzie, well reaquire could just block. 19:20:20 That's what it usually does. 19:20:23 maybe 19:20:34 wait with Unlock 19:20:37 ? 19:20:55 like the one given above 19:21:02 but that allows locking/unlocking 19:21:20 I can see myself using it. :p 19:21:40 fizzie, I think possibly mutexes should be renamed too 19:21:50 got any good idea for a name? 19:22:14 You can use the "lock" terminology if you like. Or something original and punny inspired from that sort of thing. 19:22:25 fizzie, bolt? 19:22:39 'hasp' 19:22:41 from bolting the door 19:22:44 ab5tract, good idea 19:22:54 :) 19:22:55 LOCK for locking a mutex, PICK for releasing it. :p 19:23:03 fizzie, well hm 19:23:14 thats pretty good too :) 19:23:14 fizzie, what about sync put then? 19:23:32 it already uses P 19:23:33 :/ 19:23:48 and set is used for spawn 19:23:54 t for try lock 19:23:56 err 19:23:57 T 19:23:58 Okay, I'd probably keep the G/P pair for operations that are like g/p; it's what FILE and STRN and probably others do. 19:24:07 fizzie, indeed 19:24:21 so calling it hasp would work 19:25:37 "Nail" for locking a mutex, "Crowbar" for releasing it. Except that you already use C for CMPXCHG. And maybe it's a bit too "sounds like illegal activities". :p 19:25:50 fizzie, heh 19:26:07 fizzie, they shouldn't be called mutexes I think 19:26:20 If you end up picking some unstandard nomenclature, by all means completely avoid the word mutex in the spec. 19:26:27 but nail with the operations hammer and crowbar would work 19:26:32 for hasp it would be? 19:27:04 but C is already used too really :/ 19:27:37 oh btw: 19:27:37 Note that an implementation _may_ make g, p and other such instructions 19:27:38 synchronous as well, but it is not guaranteed. Block access should never be 19:27:38 synchronous. 19:27:43 Although nail/hammer/crowbar has pretty strange real-world implications. "This instruction hammers in a nail; only the same thread can then use crowbar for releasing it. If some other thread wants to hammer the nail in, it must wait for the original thread to crowbar it out." 19:27:48 that thing indicates that I would do so to begin with 19:28:04 fizzie, ok that doesn't work 19:28:09 what do you do with a hasp? 19:28:16 lift to open it? 19:28:18 or? 19:28:23 and for locking it? 19:28:45 You can try thinking of something lock-unrelated that's simply mutually exclusive in the real world. 19:29:06 fizzie, also that above works easily too, since there is only one hammer and one crowbar, per nail 19:29:21 and regulations forbid using the hammer or crowbar from the wrong nail 19:29:44 * AnMaster considers that 19:30:27 Maybe you could use "a person" as a mutex, then "Kidnap" would be the operation to acquire that particular person, and then "Ransom" would be needed to get the person available again. :p 19:31:01 I need to awayize now for a while (an hour or so), have fun inventing names. 19:31:36 well going to eat soon 19:31:43 What's your mutex-creation operation anyway? I don't think I saw one in the draft. 19:31:51 also ransom would be a different one 19:31:55 fizzie, there is no need to create it? 19:32:06 it is just locking on an arbitrary erlang term 19:32:11 Okay, so you can just use any ID you want? M'k. 19:32:20 fizzie, in this case any number 19:32:25 Maybe cleaner that way. 19:32:27 in valid range for the implementation 19:32:31 Idea: 19:32:32 fizzie, which is BIGNUM for efunge 19:32:34 Plaintext fingerprint. 19:32:35 brb 19:32:47 All letters apart from X push a special value for themselves on the stack. 19:32:49 X executes it. 19:32:52 HELLOX might print hello world 19:34:13 HULOXXX 19:36:00 -!- atrapado has joined. 19:40:43 ehird, hehe 19:41:03 ehird, you need to properly define it though 19:41:06 Maybe. 19:41:18 ehird, or no one could implement it 19:41:28 that doesn't imply that I will implement it even if you define it 19:41:30 (http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/feedfinder/feedfinder.py Face the horror of the multi-step magical feed finder that takes up to 5 seconds to find most feeds because the web is horribly broken and nobody complies to anything!) 19:41:44 ehird, btw have you showed MKRY to Mike Riley? 19:41:48 no 19:41:58 he'll go wtf, or ehehehhehhehehhehe, i imagine 19:42:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:42:17 ehird, yeah it might be worse than me agreeing with you 19:42:26 indeed 19:42:30 he'll probably implement it 19:42:30 :P 19:42:34 not to the spec, ofc 19:42:39 hah 19:43:05 ehird, also did you look at this ATHR I'm working on? 19:43:13 nope 19:43:14 well 19:43:15 yes 19:43:15 a bit 19:43:15 the spec is about the opposite of that 19:43:26 >_< feedfinder.py can't find wikipedia's rss feed 19:43:31 despite being the most comprehensive code i've found 19:43:32 ehird, it even have "consideration of impacts on other fingerprints" and such 19:43:53 since it is about 2/3 as feral as MVRS, and TRDS 19:43:56 or even more 19:44:04 not as feral as TRDS though 19:44:26 ehird, current local copy is 280 lines 19:44:52 the actual instructions spec cover just about 60 of those 19:44:59 or a bit more 19:45:22 77 actually, 19:45:27 miscalculated 19:46:05 fizzie, the wait with atomic unlock/lock would be hard since it wouldn't actually be atomic on lower level :/ 19:46:18 fizzie, unable to do that without holding another lock! 19:46:58 * oerjan read that as wait with atomic clock 19:47:16 oerjan, atomic *lock* 19:47:24 and those are not wildcards 19:47:29 *whoosh* 19:47:36 those are not wildcards either 19:47:47 oerjan, or, as it may turn out, atomic hasp 19:47:47 :P 19:48:10 since words such as "mutex" and "lock" are too common 19:48:15 I need something original 19:48:30 so I think hasp will be best 19:49:24 i can read that as wasp if you want 19:49:32 oerjan, no thanks 19:51:08 oerjan, anyway if you are interested here is the current spec: http://rafb.net/p/ivz6AN26.html 19:51:54 oerjan, it is still under development 19:52:13 ehird, do you agree it is about as far from Riley's specs as it is possible to get? 19:52:23 not erally 19:52:31 ehird, oh? 19:52:40 ehird, what is unclear in it? 19:52:42 Waits are so rare that I'm not sure you'd get any performance problems even if you serialized that somehow. It doesn't even need to be a very global locking-thing probably. I don't know anything about Erlang concurrency (except that it's mostly passing messages around) so I won't comment about implementation-level things, though. 19:53:12 AnMaster: nothing 19:53:17 fizzie, well the module that allows creating locks is called "global" 19:53:51 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:53:57 Yeeees, but I guess not everyone needs to actually care about the lock? I mean "global" here in the sense of "blocking everyone who wants to initiate a wait operation and/or signal someone". 19:54:15 fizzie, also the lock would need to be held when unlocking and then suspending, after which you can't unlock it any more since you are suspended 19:54:50 logically 20:01:37 Depends on how the suspend/resume works, I guess. You'd need to keep that lock held until it's clear that the thread can manage to get suspended without any other thread having a chance of acquiring that hasp that was flubbrigated (ATHR-"mutex" "released") and resuming that thread before it actually managed to suspend. 20:02:16 "You'd need to keep that lock held until it's clear that the thread can manage to get suspended without any other thread having a chance of acquiring that hasp that was flubbrigated" <-- never clear 20:02:35 fizzie, erlang use a round robin scheduling that may change to another thread at any one time 20:02:40 and consider SMP too... 20:03:02 fizzie, anyway I could easily wait for the message anyway 20:03:07 Yes, but it's not like your Funge-interpreting thread would actually have to start interpreting things immediately after resuming. 20:03:09 that is, get it directly 20:03:37 the receive statement would just return right away 20:03:59 fizzie, so I guess it if doesn't have to be actually atomic 20:04:01 then fine 20:04:17 fizzie, and what if it is woken up, just to end up waiting on a lock that is already held again? 20:04:56 fizzie, also, suspending and waiting for a lock to become free is basically what L does 20:04:56 Yes, if you have "wait for messages" that won't actually lose messages (so it's not condition-variable-like waiting) I guess you don't need the controlling mutex there. 20:05:35 fizzie, indeed, messages don't get lost, however the thread will probably have to clean out it's mail box at some point 20:05:44 That's probably not a problem. 20:05:52 fizzie, in the main loop? 20:06:04 fizzie, erlang mailboxes may have some size limit, not sure 20:06:11 that is what the message queues are called 20:06:13 in erlang 20:06:29 Well, it's not hard for the Funge programmer to organize his/her threads so that it won't end up filling those. 20:06:49 fizzie, the issue is that the signal would be broadcast to all threads 20:07:04 Haha, wow. I sent an email to Aaron Swartz telling him his feed finder thing was broken an hour or so ago, and I get a response right now telling me why (their robots.txt forbids accessing it) and linking to a bug he just filed for it. 20:07:15 That's some quick response time. 20:07:39 fizzie, if I can't do that then it may actually end up loosing messages as you suggested 20:07:45 AnMaster: lose 20:07:49 losing* 20:07:59 wait I know 20:08:05 lo{1,2}sing 20:08:09 that is what I will use ;P 20:08:15 Oh, right. Well, it's still possible to organize threads so that they check all messages, although it might get to be complicated unless you happen to have a non-blocking "get my mail" thing. 20:08:35 fizzie, yes maybe directed signal or something 20:08:41 but that would need IDs for threads 20:08:48 and so on 20:09:09 * AnMaster considers 20:09:25 Huh, it wasn't an hour ago. 20:09:33 It was *10 minutes ago*. 20:09:35 The mind boggles. 20:10:05 ehird, he might have been checking his email once a day and happened to check it just after you mailed 20:10:06 or such 20:10:18 True, but that would be some coincidence. :-P 20:10:18 it can be a coincidence 20:10:34 AnMaster: He could just have a push-updates email client, you know. I do. 20:10:40 ehird, well you don't have enough data points to prove it wasn't due to that 20:10:59 Still, it's odd sending an email, promptly forgetting about it, then 10 minutes noticing you have new email and seeing there's a reply already. 20:11:04 ehird, well, even so I don't always actually check the client 20:11:10 In any case, I think the controlling mutex used for pthread condition variables (that is atomically unlocked by pthread_cond_wait and then reacquired when woken up) is there pretty much because of that otherwise complicated race condition where you check whether you need to wait something, start the wait, and then it just happens that the thing-you-were-waiting-for finished and the signal was sent (and lost) before the waiting thread managed to get suspended. 20:11:19 So if your signals don't get lost, that problem isn't there. 20:12:06 fizzie, the problem is that unless you use W in a thread existing signals will just queue up and waste memory 20:12:33 how much wasted memory are you prepared to accept in a program that might run without a reboot for a decade? 20:12:47 (that is a common erlang question, like "how many runaway threads...") 20:13:00 (since erlang is often used for extremely long running applications like that) 20:13:01 Bah. Why isn't there a Python library to canonicalize URLs? 20:13:12 I don't really care if it can be avoided by actually using W from time to time. 20:13:14 AnMaster: A befunge program will not run without a reboot for a decade. 20:13:20 cannonicalize URLs would be funnier 20:13:20 :D 20:13:26 heh. 20:13:37 ehird, sure? code upgrades are easy, self modifying 20:13:37 * ehird writes his own 20:13:43 fizzie, maybe a F to flush? 20:13:52 I'll call it canonurl, because I am boring. 20:13:55 ehird, for 1 or 2 n- cases? 20:14:07 s/-// 20:14:07 AnMaster: Can o' N 20:14:08 canonize URLs would also be good 20:14:09 URL 20:14:15 cannon! 20:14:20 that is much more fun 20:14:36 lethal urls 20:15:23 AnMaster: You can "flush" it by doing something like 8y:IW pretty easily, although it's a bit wasteful. 20:15:48 ("8y" just to get a thread-unique number, and maybe you'd need something to avoid conflicts with "real" wait numbers, but anyway...) 20:15:59 yeah 20:16:21 fizzie, except that signal would go to every process 20:16:37 fungot: signal / noise 20:16:38 ab5tract: let's see your code. and larceny's twobit compiler has an excuse to quit my job, and release my system too. 20:16:48 fizzie, "Any other queued signals before the matching one are discarded by W." 20:16:59 fizzie, that makes it slightly more complex ;P 20:17:06 Yes, that's what I was almost expecting. 20:17:15 ehird: Fungot's been running without a reboot for almost a week now. That's pretty close to a decade! 20:17:21 fizzie, so maybe a true F to flush anyway 20:17:24 fizzie: *nod* 20:17:39 Okay, maybe it's only four days. It's closer to 1 week than 0 weeks, anyway! 20:17:51 (And it would be longer unless it had the habit of crashing all the time.) 20:17:55 AnMaster: have you named your mutex stuff yet? 20:18:04 Okay, now I really must go away. 20:18:16 ab5tract, no, hasp is a good idea, but what would the operations lock/release/try-lock be called for it? 20:18:33 open/close/inspect 20:18:59 unless you are using those for io already... 20:19:10 C is used 20:19:15 latch/unlatch/inspect ? 20:19:38 L would work so would U, the current I make as much sense as N anyway so that would work fine 20:19:38 sorta a stretchy metapohor at that point i guess 20:20:07 what is the overall theme of the language? 20:20:18 ab5tract, befunge-98, this is a fingerprint for it 20:20:23 ahhhh 20:20:32 awesome 20:20:46 ab5tract, and I think Befunge-98 today is a general-purpose esolang 20:20:47 i'm all about the funge 20:20:56 considering all the fingerprints for it 20:21:05 for everything from sockets to files 20:21:07 i thought maybe you were creating a new language 20:21:27 yeah, my .sig is in befunge-93 20:21:52 i haven't learned the -98 but i have the specification 20:21:59 ab5tract, ah no, I just think t in befunge isn't very useful. Befunge needs a way to take advantage of the multi-core cpus today to be a viable language in the future enterprise world! 20:22:03 or something 20:22:21 definitely 20:22:22 since t is synced so each instruction takes one tick 20:22:52 so you are replacing it with a mutex? 20:23:00 ab5tract, with async threads 20:23:02 to be exact 20:23:06 awesome 20:23:12 asynch asynch asynch 20:23:16 ab5tract, and it will be implemented in erlang 20:23:21 thats what i chant at political rallies 20:23:25 a message-passing concurrent erlang 20:23:29 asynch? 20:23:40 ab5tract, and I didn't get that joke 20:23:44 i like the trailing h, so sue me 20:23:57 ab5tract, my spec use the full word 20:23:59 http://rafb.net/p/OINz1N69.html 20:24:07 is the current draft 20:24:55 So... Do you guys think it's reasonable to assume people don't serve different content on http://foo.com/ to http://www.foo.com/? 20:24:56 :| 20:25:13 ehird, yes, but the www one shouldn't resolve 20:25:17 i like the idea of funge with erlang 20:25:27 AnMaster: Yes, it should, but it should redirect to the former. 20:25:28 ehird, also the non-www seem to redirect to the www one 20:25:31 which is horrible 20:25:32 However, I'm not asking for your idealism. 20:25:54 ehird, well yeah I usually redirect www to non-www, so that would put be in B class of no-www iirc? 20:25:54 I'm asking people who actually have a grasp on reality and pragmatism whether they think there are any examples of foo.com differing from www.foo.com. 20:26:14 grasp on reality and pragmatism? 20:26:15 ehird, I know one 20:26:18 it's my time to shine! 20:26:19 the local municpality 20:26:21 err spelling 20:26:24 AnMaster: link? 20:26:28 oklopol: yep... 20:26:30 www.foo.com and foo.com should actually just redirect to each other 20:26:36 ehird, http://www.kumla.se/ 20:26:40 the non-www returns an error 20:26:43 oto.foo.com is where the actual content should be 20:26:54 except all the letters f, j and k should be in oko.foo.com 20:26:55 ehird, 403 Forbidden to be exact 20:26:57 AnMaster: Ah. 20:27:00 except for one, that's simply removed. 20:27:04 glad i could help 20:27:05 ehird, which is pretty wtfish :P 20:27:39 is this excluding the cases where www. doesn't even exist? 20:27:53 Asztal, I think so 20:28:02 I seen a few sites like that 20:28:23 no-www.org says 38,000 domains 20:28:31 no-www doesn't load here 20:28:36 just a white page 20:28:37 wtf 20:28:42 nor here, I checked google's cache :) 20:29:30 extra-www loads though 20:29:36 iirc someone from this channel made it 20:29:42 GregorR maybe? Not sure 20:30:53 ehird: I can't recall any case where both exist but have different content 20:31:34 reminds me of news.com.com 20:31:37 ehird, you don't count the example I gave? 20:32:11 AnMaster: it's common for one or the other to give an error 20:32:28 Deewiant, 403 forbidden too? 20:32:52 AnMaster: many sites give 403 when they mean 404 20:33:02 for security reasons, I suspect 20:33:03 Deewiant, that makes no sense 20:33:16 Deewiant, wouldn't it be more secure to give 404 for all instead? 20:33:39 hmm, good point 20:33:47 anyway, I don't know why 20:33:54 but for instance http://users.tkk.fi/mniemenm/foo is a 403 20:34:05 Deewiant, and it is a 404 really? 20:34:17 and I can assure you my public_html directory doesn't contain a file called foo which you're not allowed to read :-P 20:34:23 Deewiant, maybe it is 403 as in "directory listing forbidden"? 20:34:45 AnMaster: why would that make sense 20:34:45 ah no 20:34:59 Deewiant, it would only make sense for a directory indeed 20:42:42 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:43:18 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 20:46:15 There are many sites where the non-www. one is broken. 20:46:57 I think I ran across one today too. 20:46:59 fizzie, my sites always redirect www one to non-www 20:47:32 first redirect in lighttpd.conf 20:47:46 globally, for all vhosts 20:48:37 fizzie, http://rafb.net/p/ZtV0Tn90.html 20:48:41 that is the current version 20:48:55 ah wait 20:49:00 should say no parameters for F 20:49:35 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:49:55 Actually both the www and non-www ones for the site I ran across now say "We are making big updates on the server Web services will be up and running later today." -- maybe they'll get that fixed too. 20:51:42 gee, your draft warning was nice 20:51:42 here I was 20:51:45 IMPLEMENTING it 20:51:51 but its only a draft?! 20:51:52 omgwtfbbq! 20:52:42 * oerjan brings sausages 20:53:00 ehird, hah hah 20:53:49 ehird, also writing specs for funge have taught me one thing: Better try to state things you think everyone would understand 20:53:53 since everyone won't 20:53:55 ever 20:54:11 so state things explicitly 20:54:17 The C instruction should indicate what happened somehow. I think usually (at least CMPXCHG) it just returns the current value that was there in the cell, so you can just use a "C-|" sequence (if you had the "value to compare to" under the params in the stack) to see whether it did the swap or not. 20:54:27 fizzie, thanks, I forgot that 20:55:06 fizzie, why -? 20:55:16 rather just using a w there 20:55:19 AnMaster: equality comparison... 20:55:19 would be better 20:55:27 w might go up or down. 20:55:28 w's are annoying because you need to handle 3 cases 20:55:36 with -| or -_ it's 2 20:56:01 Of course it could indicate by reflecting too if you're more into that; a boolean yes/no is strictly speaking enough. Although then it's not actually compare-and-*swap*. 20:56:02 Deewiant, well yeah, but | or _ checks for "equal to zero/different from zero" 20:56:21 ah wait 20:56:23 right 20:56:25 that would work 20:56:28 AnMaster: yes, so with - you get "top two are equal" 20:56:32 and yeah updated spec have it 20:57:30 Deewiant, what about C reflecting if current cell isn't equal? 20:57:47 as in C failed 20:57:53 ask fizzie, I don't even know what you're talking about :-P 20:58:04 You should call it "compare and set" then, but other than that it should be fine. 20:58:16 fizzie: Reflects if replace failed, pushing the existing (unchanged value on stack). 20:58:19 Since it's not "exchange" if you don't get the old value back. 20:58:25 fizzie, it also pushes the old value 20:58:29 if it is successful 20:59:01 http://www.www.extra-www.org/ is my site. 20:59:01 Well, you can do that too, but then most people will probably just follow it with $ since the reflection is what interests people. Usually. I guess in some cases the old value is interesting too. 20:59:21 fizzie, you should probably know it 20:59:23 and hm 20:59:30 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:59:31 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:59:31 fizzie, so that is a bad idea then? 20:59:49 so no reflect? 21:00:04 I don't have a real opinion; it's just a matter of a couple of characters, anyway. As long as it indicates at least somehow whether it failed or not. 21:00:12 GregorR: That arson news site, why does it actually use it? 21:00:21 I can't think why you'd be crazy enough to, you know, actually do it. 21:00:23 Uppercased instructions seem to reflect a whole lot, though. 21:00:23 fizzie, also what sould it push if it fails then? 21:00:50 If it's called "exchange", it should probably in all cases push the value that was there, even if it did not actually set it to whatever you wanted. 21:01:06 fizzie: yes, lowercased instructions just invoke undefined behaviour ;-) 21:01:07 fizzie, hm 21:01:07 ok 21:01:33 Deewiant, true, and so does Riley's upper case ones too 21:02:21 Personally I'd probably just make it either always push the old value and not reflect (so that people will do -| after it) or simply reflect without pushing the old value (but call it compare-and-set, then, it should be just as powerful, though maybe not quite as convenient -- can't think of use cases right now). 21:02:39 fizzie, ok 21:02:48 Convenience has never been very high on funge-people's priorities, though. 21:02:49 wtf 21:02:50 lag 21:03:09 better now 21:03:38 fizzie, I go for the exchange one 21:03:56 since I think reflect is more convenient ;P 21:07:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Do you know, pikhq?. 21:07:33 has anyone ever made a programming language based on text formatting? Well apart from ColourForth but that doesn't really count since it is just colours, not full formatting, like text size 21:07:40 it should probably use odf format 21:08:18 Text formatting? 21:08:28 AnMaster: TeX? 21:08:42 Deewiant, no as in the formatting affected what the code meant 21:08:52 somewhat like colours do in ColorForth 21:08:58 colourforth. 21:08:59 :p 21:09:08 ehird, "Well apart from ColourForth but that doesn't really count since it is just colours, not full formatting, like text size" 21:09:13 Yes. You're wrong. :) 21:09:18 after fizzie's idea 21:09:23 "like @, only really big" 21:09:24 ColourForth can be presented in non-colour version. 21:09:35 e.g. Chuck wrote a paper about it using italics/underline/bold. 21:09:38 So you could do text size too. 21:09:42 ehird, hm ok 21:11:58 Another style thing: in the "ATHR vs. REFC" the wording, while technically speaking correct, maybe a bit needlessly complicated. The REFC reference numbers don't really matter, so it probably doesn't matter if they're given out first-come-first-served or something stranger, you could just say they're global and need to work without explicit synchronization of requests. 21:12:09 Although it could be just me nitpicking here. 21:12:37 fizzie, good idea 21:12:45 and thanks for the comments 21:14:29 fizzie, should I attribute you with your real name or your nick in "thanks to"? 21:14:57 same question goes to Deewiant 21:15:36 previously you've used my name, I guess; I typically use both 21:15:38 I'm never good in deciding that. Maybe real name, so prospective employers will know I do all kinds of sensible and profitable things with my time. 21:15:53 Deewiant, I used your name after asking you iirc 21:15:54 Already got one summer job because of my Befunge skills. 21:16:04 fizzie, what? huh? 21:16:12 what sort of summer job? 21:16:18 AnMaster: Perl-writing. :p 21:16:30 fizzie, oh well I can see the logic in that yeah 21:16:50 Okay, so I'm not entirely sure the Befunge thing had anything to do with it, but the subject came up in the interview and the people seemed at least curious about it, if not outright interested. 21:17:25 (I had "esoteric programming languages" listed as a hobby in my CV since the template had a section titled like that.) 21:18:03 (The company was Nokia; you may have heard of it.) 21:18:27 (It's that mobile phone maker everyone thinks is Japanese. :p) 21:18:33 Nokia? Huh? 21:18:35 Who are they? 21:19:36 fizzie, I know it is Finnish 21:19:38 of course 21:19:44 I got a nokia phone even 21:19:53 says 2600 21:19:54 on i 21:19:55 Huh? 21:19:55 it* 21:20:02 What's a mobile phone? 21:20:14 ah no 21:20:16 2100 21:20:29 Okay, I guess most people know that, but it's an old joke that Finland's most successful company has a faux-Japanese-sounding name.) 21:20:31 ehird, tried google? 21:20:33 to quote you 21:20:43 ah no 21:20:46 AnMaster: ... uh, what's google? 21:21:00 sorry i must look like an idiot 21:21:00 :\ 21:21:15 fizzie, Don't they make wheels too iirc? 21:21:49 fizzie, also how comes you didn't get that summer job? 21:21:52 ehird: no no, just an amnesiac 21:21:58 oh wait 21:22:03 AnMaster: Huh? I did get it. 21:22:20 fizzie, sorry, read it as "almost" 21:22:24 not "already" 21:22:59 AnMaster: that's Nokian. _entirely_ different. 21:23:30 oerjan, oh ok 21:23:41 they got very similar names 21:23:49 The tires and boots were part of the same Nokia company back then in the 1960s. 21:23:51 -!- Corun_ has joined. 21:24:02 fizzie, but they split up after? 21:24:04 also boots? 21:24:07 didn't know that 21:24:11 just the tires bit 21:24:12 Rubber boots. 21:24:16 You know, for rainy days. 21:24:27 fizzie, yeah, but I use a Swedish brand 21:24:49 Ericsso boots 21:24:58 no wait may be Danish 21:25:01 HH is what it says 21:25:05 that's Danish isn't it? 21:25:51 * oerjan swats AnMaster ----### 21:25:52 Apparently the tire-manufacturing part was split from the telecommunications part in 1988. 21:26:00 norwegian, in fact 21:26:17 Helly Hansen, is it? 21:26:22 oerjan, oh ok 21:26:23 sorry 21:26:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helly_Hansen 21:26:27 fizzie, yeah 21:26:44 mind you i wasn't sure myself until i googled 21:26:46 I think I have something of theirs to wear on the sailboat; good for that sort of thing. 21:26:53 hah 21:27:01 * AnMaster swats oerjan for swatting then 21:27:32 fizzie, Nokian or HH? 21:28:02 HH. And not boots; some sort of jacket. 21:28:12 I don't think Nokia has done rubber boots for ages now. 21:28:24 Although I'm not really sure. 21:28:41 I guess they still do. 21:29:03 nokianfootwear.fi/eng 21:29:04 HH does "flytväst" too 21:29:12 no idea what the name is for that in English 21:29:15 floating suite? 21:29:22 floating jacket 21:29:23 probably 21:29:25 or whatever 21:29:43 Life-vest if you mean the safety gear. 21:30:30 yes that 21:30:48 except it is less than that and more like light weight, meant for sailing 21:30:59 which is actually called a "seglarväst" 21:31:36 Ah, then it's more like fi:kelluntaliivi (floatation vest), distinct from fi:pelastusliivi (rescue vest) which is the more heavy-duty thing. 21:31:52 fizzie, exactly 21:31:56 I'm not sure how the official definitions go. 21:32:03 the "flytväst" is the heavy duty ones 21:32:14 but the thing I was thinking about was the lightweight ones 21:32:18 Ah, okay. 21:32:32 fizzie, I got one of those lightweight ones somewhere 21:32:40 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:32:45 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 21:33:40 The CE authorization thing defines the life-vest one to be something that turns you on your back and keeps the head above the water even if you're completely unconscious, while the lightweight one just helps you float if you're still operational and know how to swim. 21:36:31 fizzie, well I know how to swim well, during the summer I often swim 2 km every other day for exercise 21:36:36 (spelling of last word?) 21:36:57 exercise is fine. 21:37:04 k 21:37:09 The spelling, I mean. I think the practice sounds somewhat unhealthy. 21:37:22 All that fresh air. 21:37:25 Can't be good for you. 21:37:38 * oerjan seconds that 21:38:38 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:38:58 well. I think it is better for me than being indoors all the time 21:39:00 really 21:39:13 had health problems from that before, so I decided to avoid that 21:41:25 fizzie, Deewiant : http://rafb.net/p/2zsIOB88.html 21:41:27 comments? 21:41:29 anyone else too? 21:41:57 -!- Corun_ has changed nick to Corun. 21:42:04 oerjan, you got comments? 21:43:25 too much draft. fresh air, remember? 21:43:38 oerjan, gah 21:44:56 fizzie, oh btw I pondered adding a section near the end called "ATHR and the effects on modern society" with the text "Not a lot." 21:45:18 I like the systematic "parameters, return value, reflection info" format, it's very fastidious. 21:45:29 * AnMaster googles fastidious 21:45:38 1. (2) fastidious -- (giving careful attention to detail; hard to please; excessively concerned with cleanliness; "a fastidious and incisive intellect"; "fastidious about personal cleanliness") 21:45:42 First sense. 21:46:01 Not "excessively concerned with cleanliness"; if you are, I don't know about it. 21:46:03 also I missed it for the two last instructions 21:46:06 * AnMaster reads 21:46:21 fizzie, also what about "incisive"? 21:46:32 * oerjan fits all three, he thinks 21:46:43 well at one time or another 21:46:47 AnMaster: That's pretty much the same thing as "keen". 21:46:54 ah 21:46:58 then that is me 21:47:01 "a fastidious and incisive intellect" 21:48:04 AnMaster: You're so humble. 21:48:22 Although it does have a secondary meaning of "suitable for cutting"; incision is, after all, a cut. 21:48:26 ehird, it was a joke 21:48:31 AnMaster: So was mine. 21:48:47 ehird, I thought it was sarcasm? 21:48:54 oh wait no ~, sorry 21:49:11 No, it was sarcasm, which was a joke. 21:49:12 also is it "signaled" or "signalled"? 21:49:19 different spelling programs want different there 21:49:21 !??????? 21:49:44 "signaled" is the US spelling, I think. 21:49:45 signalled 21:49:50 ehird, ah thanks 21:50:02 yeah I use UK spelling when possible 21:50:23 UK spelling tends to be the one with more letters. :p 21:50:35 (I'm sure there are exceptions, though.) 21:52:13 And at least center/centre has the same length. But it works for aluminum/aluminium and all kinds of .*or/.*our things. 21:52:38 ize/ise? 21:52:46 Okay, those have the same length. 21:52:48 that is .* of course in front 21:53:02 and yse/yze 21:53:06 yeah 21:53:27 also is center or centre UK? 21:53:38 Centre. 21:53:39 there are three standards: ise/yse, ize/yze, ize/yse 21:54:25 Wasn't aluminum/aluminium on that "lamest wikipedia edit wars" page? At least I remember looking at the article talk page one day and marvelling (again also US marveling) at the amount of talk about the name. 21:55:10 Seems they moved it to a separate page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aluminium/Spelling 21:55:43 That's a 116-kilobyte page. Of course some HTML overhead, but still. 21:56:26 fizzie, you really want en-us and en-uk wikipedias 21:56:34 and maybe en-au and so on too 21:56:35 s/uk/gb/ 21:56:45 Deewiant, right 21:57:05 Deewiant, how do they differ though? 21:57:41 great britain is the island 21:57:51 Deewiant, and UK? 21:58:00 the country 21:58:03 also I probably meant UK then 21:58:18 "UK of GB and Northern Ireland" 21:58:25 Deewiant, yes exactly 21:59:17 Deewiant, fizzie: so any comments on this version: http://rafb.net/p/tUcpyC58.html 21:59:20 there are two things left: 21:59:28 rename mutexes to maybe hasps 21:59:31 or something even better 21:59:43 and the second issue: 21:59:52 clear up the [TODO: ...] comment 21:59:56 needs some thinking about 22:00:16 Deewiant, and would this be something you would ever consider implementing? 22:00:21 If not: why not? 22:00:50 Maybe. If not: because it'd require too many changes all over the place 22:01:02 concurrency in imperative languages is a bit of a pain 22:01:08 Mediawiki is complicated; I had to use http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aluminium/Spelling&action=raw to fetch the raw page source (265040 bytes) because just adding ?action=raw to the end of the URL gave me a "Raw pages must be accessed through the primary script entry point." error. 22:01:21 I don't think I have any comments left, but I'll take a peek. 22:02:02 I'd rather go the async-MVRS route for concurrency as I'm still not sure whether ATHR is actually useful at all. 22:02:09 but anyhoo 22:02:12 * Deewiant <*> bed 22:02:16 Deewiant, ok 22:02:34 fizzie, as for that error, how comes they detected the ?action bit at all 22:02:41 if they did they could just have served that 22:02:53 so that makes no sense 22:02:59 Deewiant: I'd probably have used ATHR if I were writing fungot now, but I don't think I'd have gone the MVRS route. Although I guess I could have. 22:02:59 fizzie: in that sentence 22:03:10 Guys. #notes-to-ehird. In which I am going to let you make my computer say things 22:03:12 With amazing text to speech technology 22:03:14 It will be amazing. Probably 22:03:31 ehird, hm 22:03:55 I ran all my IRC though the "amazing" OS 7.5.5 text-to-speech facility once for some.. hmm, maybe dozen hours. 22:04:02 Had to turn it off after that. 22:04:22 fizzie, haha 22:04:26 Maybe it wasn't 7.5.5; really don't remember. 22:05:10 I think it was 7.5.5; isn't that the latest version Apple is giving out? At least at some point there was 7.5.3 plus the 7.5.5 update available for downloading. 22:05:14 fizzie, I think OS 8 had it at least 22:05:18 so quite possible 22:05:25 It was pre-8, though. 22:05:47 7.5 had text2speech 22:05:50 ok 22:06:00 ab5tract, any comments on http://rafb.net/p/tUcpyC58.html ? 22:06:12 concurrency in imperative languages is a bit of a pain <-- well, not my problem 22:06:26 it was there before the beveled progress bars 22:06:29 I liked the "the light that you see at the end of the tunnel is the headlights of a fast approaching train" test phrase the 'bad news' voice spoke. :p 22:06:51 Or something like that, anyway. 22:06:55 fizzie, hehe 22:07:03 AnMaster: it looks pretty good, i'm going to take a better look in a sec 22:07:06 fizzie, most of those voices were horrible 22:07:14 ab5tract, in a sec I may be asleep 22:07:28 then i'll have to comment another time :) 22:07:38 ab5tract, I do read scrollback 22:07:46 im new to the channel but im already a big fan 22:07:54 glad to see befunge gets so much love 22:08:14 anyone know how finished the befunge implementation on parrot is? 22:08:21 I did Befunge before I ran across Brainfuck; it holds a special place in my heart. 22:08:23 ab5tract, it is actually one of the more easy-to-use languages 22:08:28 for esoteric ones 22:08:29 that is 22:08:39 yeah definitely 22:08:55 plus its just such a damn cool concept 22:09:04 ab5tract, what about trefunge then? 22:09:07 or 6-funge 22:09:11 haven't tried em 22:09:17 like i said, im new 22:09:18 unefunge maybe? 22:09:28 that is one-dimensional 22:09:32 and trefunge is 3D 22:09:39 the idea of topogrphical programming is awesome 22:09:43 6-funge would be 6-dimensional 22:09:56 yeah i've heard about them but i havent tried them 22:10:09 i haven't been able to get cfunge to compile on this os x box 22:10:09 ah so is it equal to a donut or a coffee cup? 22:10:09 ;P 22:10:22 ab5tract, oh? what error? 22:10:27 I compiled cfunge on OS X some time ago. 22:10:30 linking error is fixed in current bzr 22:10:38 don't remember if it is in last release 22:10:46 ab5tract, anyway I suspect fizzie is better at helping there 22:10:47 ah 22:10:49 since I use Linux 22:10:50 it was the link error 22:10:57 ab5tract, about bad flags? 22:11:01 yup 22:11:17 i'll check that out 22:11:24 ab5tract, look for 22:11:25 #SET_TARGET_PROPERTIES(cfunge PROPERTIES 22:11:25 #LINK_FLAGS "-Wl,-O1,--as-needed,--warn-common" 22:11:25 #) 22:11:35 except there won't be # in front 22:11:41 adding # will fix it for now 22:11:47 and what current bzr head looks like 22:12:03 ab5tract, that would be in CMakeLists.txt 22:12:20 also I got it to compile myself recently when I had access to a mac for a bit 22:12:25 that was bzr version too 22:12:46 ab5tract, normally I just work on Linux and FreeBSD 22:13:08 i prefer nixen as well 22:13:16 um 22:13:20 Mac OS X is *nix 22:13:24 sad but true 22:13:29 sorry, yes i know 22:13:43 * ab5tract meant foss nixen 22:13:46 Actually my OS X laptop is not online right now and I can't be bothered to start it up to test things; but the issues were pretty simple ones. 22:13:49 give or take the f 22:14:58 nice that worked like a charm 22:15:06 off to work folks, i will ttyl 22:15:35 Oh, incidentally... does the 's' instruction also then skip the character it wrote, like ' skips the character it read? 22:15:46 fizzie, yes afaik 22:16:02 I guess it has to, since the spec says it's "mirror image of the ' instruction". 22:16:50 I just thought it'd be more useful as a "execute from stack" instruction and not a "stick a character right here" one, although obviously you can then just route the code flow through it 22:17:24 fizzie, I suggest RC/Funge EXEC then 22:17:52 iirc it executes from stack 22:18:03 I really haven't had use for execute-from-stack yet, just wondering. 22:18:05 -!- ab5tract has quit. 22:18:24 Actually I don't thing fungot does any self-modification whatsoever, which is pretty bad style in a Funge program I guess. 22:18:24 fizzie: depends on how much faster but any reasonable amount wouldn't help much 22:18:51 Of course it makes it easier to generate those messy graphs. :p 22:19:20 fizzie, is that a good thing? 22:20:19 Well, I think the graph looked nice. I still want to give it to someone asking for office supplies or something and say "here's our process for doing that". 22:20:32 It looks very enterprisey. 22:21:47 fizzie: make it compile the funge in the brackets to Java 22:21:47 or UML 22:21:53 brackets=bubbles 22:24:22 fizzie, is it possible to print it out? 22:28:38 You can print it scaled to fit on an A4 paper on a 600dpi laser printer so that you can _almost_ make out the labels; even read quite a large part of them if you squint real hard. 22:28:48 On an A3-sized paper it should be reasonably legible. 22:29:09 Maybe on A4 too with enough tweaking of Graphviz font parameters. There's quite a lot of empty space in them bubbles. 22:31:57 how is http://www.websiteoptimization.com/about/ so faaaaaast 22:34:49 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 22:37:00 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 22:37:47 Re MVRS, I assume the "Big-Bang" instruction won't create any IPs in it? Since it's still empty and everything. So if MVRS's G/J are not well defined when ATHR is in use, a ATHR/MVRS combination will be pretty hard to use. (Not that interpreting current G/J is much more than guesswork right now.) 22:46:24 hmm 22:46:43 someone invent a pgp-based method to roll an N-sided dice between two people over irc :3 22:47:04 i.e. you can just run it and paste the resulting string to roll 22:47:15 and the other person can verify the number you say was made properly randomly 22:47:17 or...something 22:47:18 i don't know 22:48:39 fizzie: you do it 22:48:57 you could just write a spec i guess. i can write code. but if you do not do it i will rip your eyeballs out 22:49:35 ehird is so good at motivation 22:50:01 Hmm. In principle you don't really need much for that: just require some suitable amount of input data from both participants, then compute a suitable SHA-512 hash (or some such) of the concatenation and take the result modulo N. Neither participant can then force the result to be what they want, as long as (key point) they both commit to their strings in advance before seeing the other one. 22:50:29 And you can do the commit-to-one-string by requiring both participants to publish the hash of their piece of input in advance. 22:50:47 fizzie: suitable input data = /dev/random? 22:50:49 Would that work? 22:51:21 ideally it'd be something like "pgproll 10", paste the output (which I guess would be "rolled number (magic key thing)") 22:51:21 It's probably as good as you can get. Or "openssl rand". 22:51:29 or something 22:51:30 maybe: 22:51:42 alice rolling, bob verifying: 22:51:51 well 22:51:58 fizzie: does yours support the model i'm thinking of? 22:52:09 i'm thinking of 2 people playing a dice-based game over irc 22:52:15 and person A being the dice roller 22:52:31 both need to do some part of the rolling to prevent cheating 22:52:36 but they want person B to be able to verify that the dice rolls aren't being forged 22:52:36 i think 22:52:45 Maybe not directly; there's the need for both participants to publish the input hashes first, and then their input strings. After that both participants can verify the result, which will be random. 22:52:51 oerjan: yes... that's the problem :-P 22:53:17 fizzie: how does that verify that you didn't just modify the program to pick the number you tell it to? 22:54:01 ehird: the point with both choosing part of the number is that then neither than cheat successfully without the cooperation of the other 22:54:11 oerjan: ah, right 22:54:18 Well, anyone can just compute the hash of those two concatenated inputs and check what the result of the roll is. 22:54:30 wait 22:54:32 Obviously nothing's preventing you from lying and saying "I got a natural 20". 22:54:33 you could just do that by: 22:54:41 person A says 0-6 22:54:42 er 22:54:44 0-5 22:54:45 person B says 0-5 22:54:49 add them together, there's your roll 22:54:50 :-P 22:54:55 No, then person B can decide. 22:55:01 oh, right 22:55:04 You need both A and B to commit on their number before revealing it. 22:55:17 Therefore they need to publish the hashes of their selections first. 22:55:18 but the commit has to happen simultaneously too, to avoid cheating 22:55:29 (its not hard to bruteforce 6 possibilities) 22:55:43 so you might as well just figure out a way to do that, then just apply it to the number 0-5 22:55:47 But it's hard to bruteforce what the input will be, if it's something like a kilobyte. 22:56:13 Ah, true. 22:56:24 Still...Currently this requires _five irc messages_ 22:56:26 hash 22:56:29 hash 22:56:31 number 22:56:33 number 22:56:37 (a checks both numbers, sums them) 22:56:39 result 22:56:45 that's...hideously unwieldy 22:56:48 Well, A doesn't really need to announce the number. 22:56:56 Both participants know it already after four messages. 22:57:03 (But that's still four messages.) 22:57:39 oh actually doesn't need to reveal the hash. he can do the number first 22:57:42 Yes, but the point of having one person doing a dice roll is that they do all the work :-P 22:57:53 oerjan: oh, true 22:57:54 but 22:57:56 hash 22:57:57 number 22:57:58 sum 22:57:59 is 22:58:03 1. still quite unwieldy 22:58:06 2. harder to check for b 22:58:16 (he has to subtract number from sum, then check it matches hash, etc) 22:58:27 hmm 22:58:30 this could be automated with a webservice 22:58:35 i..think 22:58:38 no wait 22:58:43 you'd need pgp in your browser 22:58:46 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 22:59:06 You could just use a trusted third party to do all the work. That's what normal people would do. :p 22:59:22 "There's a dice-rolling bot by that one unrelated guy, let's just use that." 23:00:56 I'm not sure you'll get to less than those three messages there with only the two people who don't trust each other. 23:01:46 With a bit of scripting three would not be too bad. 23:02:00 fizzie: There is no such thing as a trusted third party. 23:02:01 :-P 23:02:19 'trusted third party' is exactly the problem with security today. 23:03:12 It's a "/roll 20" command which will do I want to roll a d20, my hash is <...>; then a "/answer" command from b which will do " okay, my [1, 20] random number is "; and finally a "/foo" command for a which will do " the dice roll result was ". 23:03:31 And b's script will add a "[verified]" message after that last line if it is okay. 23:03:45 And I couldn't think of reasonable command names, sorry. :p 23:04:16 needs to include salt, doesn't it 23:04:39 fizzie: Yes, but the point is if you can modify clients its a solved problem 23:04:40 er 's last one 23:04:46 oerjan: no 23:04:54 fizzie: The challenge is making it work over basic protocols we already have. 23:05:10 Ooh. 23:05:13 i think i found a program to do it 23:05:46 Okay, you can't just hash A's number. But it's easy to hash that and a bit of randomness, and include the randomness in the last message. 23:06:02 that's what i meant 23:06:10 You don't have to, just check A's first message 23:06:29 No, I mean, A can't hash just the number: there's too few alternatives. 23:07:01 ah 23:07:01 yes 23:07:10 I thought http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/secroll.py did this, but it appears to be totally broken. 23:07:13 Let me write a program that works. 23:07:13 Sec. 23:07:18 fizzie: WE CAN TEST IT TOGETHER 23:07:19 OMG 23:07:33 No, we can't: I'm going to sleep in 5 minutes. 23:08:00 me too 23:08:04 It's not going to take me 5 minutes to write it. :-P 23:09:29 It's not going to take me 5 minutes to get to sleep, either. 23:09:55 There's a hairy man going to come here tomorrow at 08 (in 7 hours) to install a faucet, I need to be mentally prepared for it. 23:10:01 (Okay, the hairiness is still speculation.) 23:12:34 Hm. 23:12:36 I think 10 bits of randomness is reasonable 23:13:45 But that's just n*1024 numbers to hash before finding out what A's number was, for a n-sided dice. 23:13:57 Oh. True. 23:14:11 fizzie: Well, how many would you suggest? 1000? :P 23:14:50 Hm. 23:14:56 It has to be a small amount, since it will be revealed over irc. 23:18:36 The problem there is that you can just precompute all the possible hash values; so it should be sufficiently large that 256*2^n bits is too much to store. 23:19:20 fizzie: Um, 10^25 megabytes is too much to store. 23:19:30 Wait, even more than that. 23:19:41 3.86856262 * 10^25, even, sez google. 23:19:59 Yes, I mean, 1000 is more than enough. But 10 is not. 23:20:26 I just meant that it's not only the speed-to-bruteforce (after all, _that_ just needs to be a minute or so) since it can be precomputed. 23:20:45 Maybe 50 bits would suffice; that's 10 base64-encoded characters, not a long string. Or 60, two more characters doesn't make a difference. 23:21:32 I was talking about 100, btw. 23:21:42 Oh. Well, didn't bother to check. 23:22:27 50 bits of randomness already means 64k terabytes of hashes even for a two-sided "die". 23:22:32 I sleep now, anyway. 23:22:49 Bye. 23:22:55 Bye. Have fun rolling dice. 23:23:19 I shall. 23:23:19 :D 23:33:14 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 23:39:34 AnMaster: openssl question 23:39:40 ehird, ? 23:39:45 how would you use "openssl rand" to generate a random number from 0 to N? 23:39:53 I'm not great expert but I'll try 23:39:56 the minimum you can get is one byte, i.e. 0-255 23:40:05 and just moduloing that or something seems...stupid 23:40:32 it seems indeed to generate random bytes 23:40:39 ehird, so I got no idea if it is possible 23:41:14 :p 23:41:24 using modulo should work if you make sure that (255 * number of bytes) % the max number you want == 0 23:41:29 then it should still be uniform 23:41:35 ehird, oh btw night 23:41:36 Er, number of bytes = 1. 23:41:37 Presumably. 23:41:40 also night. 23:42:25 Re MVRS, I assume the "Big-Bang" instruction won't create any IPs in it? Since it's still empty and everything. So if MVRS's G/J are not well defined when ATHR is in use, a ATHR/MVRS combination will be pretty hard to use. (Not that interpreting current G/J is much more than guesswork right now.) 23:42:32 exactly for the latter point 23:42:37 I just defined what I could 23:56:21 AnMaster: yay, roll.py is almost done 23:57:18 night 23:57:19 really 2008-10-17: 00:05:06 Who wants to test my magical dice roller? 00:11:25 Deewiant: ? 00:11:39 Asztal: GregorR oklopol 00:11:50 pikhq. Sgeo. your mom. 00:12:24 ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird 00:12:36 yay 00:12:44 GregorR: WILL YOU TEST MY IMMUNE-TO-CHEATING IRC-BASED DICE SYSTEM <3 00:12:53 I doubt it. 00:13:01 why not 00:13:05 it's just copy&pasting ;_; 00:13:10 Because you lamepinged me :P 00:13:22 GregorR: Because nobody is onlinnnnnnnnnnnnne 00:13:23 :D 00:13:30 I'll test it, ehird, as long as it doesn't require too much thought. 00:13:50 Jiminy_Cricket: If you're on a UNIX-like system with Python, then the rest is just copy&paste from the output of a script 00:14:00 Ah, I'm on Windows 00:14:15 * GregorR stares at his beautiful running Python interpreter. 00:14:33 Jiminy_Cricket: Oh. I could make it use the equiv. to /dev/random, but, tomorrow. 00:14:36 GregorR: ^____^ 00:14:42 OKAY SO HERE'S WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO 00:15:02 I'll give you an initial line, which will be 'roll ' 00:15:09 Run 'python roll.py ' and paste my line in. 00:15:17 You'll get another line back. Paste it to the channel. 00:15:24 FInally, I'll paste the result line. 00:15:33 Paste that into the script, if it prints OK, no cheating has happened! 00:15:34 Hooray! 00:15:50 For being my side, add an additional argument of 'alice', and do the same paste/copy dance. 00:15:56 This could be automated in a client. 00:16:03 GregorR: AND HERE IS THE SCRIPT 00:16:19 GregorR: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1228858 00:16:25 So. Here goes: 00:16:30 roll 100 e1d33f5e2ac718ae227cf58ace285a9dfc7c49f0 00:17:24 rolled 3 00:17:39 Hrm, wait, I think I borkled it a bit. 00:17:53 GregorR: Did you run it with the second argument being 100? 00:18:00 Therein lies the problem :P 00:18:01 rolled 00:18:02 :P 00:18:05 ... 00:18:06 Copy/paste error 00:18:08 you rolled the empty string? 00:18:09 Wow :D 00:18:13 rolled 28 00:18:22 final roll 51 (YQjgBLnVeM3sGFNfrdTOEQV622w3S7K6tnEIEeNVLQVPw7HHBrQM3jISxYhY42oLIeU=) 00:18:55 If that prints 'OK', then the final rolled number is 51. 00:18:56 Does it? 00:19:06 OK 00:19:09 Yay. 00:19:20 GregorR: Now let's do that fast, to simulate a real-world situation. 00:19:24 roll 100 cf620c82c9c9941ffee2e101b6383a2916515c5e 00:19:40 rolled 00:19:42 6 00:19:47 I suck at copy/pasting aparently. 00:19:48 final roll 18 (ATjJBwI1F4Mp9KM2Kq3qLpoTwCG4sM7huK20GBLQeNWKEXUXEGLj6EQ9Ko31htPtoQ8=) 00:19:50 *apparently 00:20:01 OK 00:20:04 Hooray. 00:20:14 Here's, basically, how it works: 00:20:23 It gets 50 bytes of random data from /dev/random. 00:20:30 It seeds a prng with them. 00:20:38 It generates a random number from 0 to (sides/2). 00:20:46 It then gives you the hash of the seed. 00:20:57 Then, the other side does the same but prints out the number in plaintext. 00:21:16 Then, when 'alice' gets the number, it adds them together, and prints out the result, along with the base64-encoded text of the 50 random bytes. 00:21:27 When 'bob' puts in that, 00:21:37 it verifies that the base64 version hashes the same as the original hash 00:21:49 then it seeds the prng with the bytes 00:21:56 and generates a random number, etc 00:22:03 and checks that it's equal to (final_result - bobs_number) 00:22:09 (because, with the same seed, it should be the same, of course) 00:22:20 this assures that the original number was not tampered with after seeing yours 00:22:35 and since both halves are involved in the creation of the final number, 00:22:41 one single party can't cheat to get a number to their advantage 00:22:46 (unless they can predict another system's /dev/random... :P) 00:22:49 TADA 00:23:06 GregorR: Neato / not neato 00:23:23 Poor Alice and Bob 00:23:39 Jiminy_Cricket: :o 00:23:55 Having to do so much work just to prevent cheating 00:23:57 Anyway, I'd say the above ain't bad for a 48 lines script 00:24:30 Yeah 00:24:45 Jiminy_Cricket: Like you wouldn't cheat if, online, you were tasked with rolling the die and there was a certain number that would make you win :-P 00:24:54 Although a game with something like that would be hideously imbalanced. 00:25:06 Anyway, this'd be improved with a client plugin that does it. 00:25:24 So you could do /roll myotherperson 100 and the two clients would go through the motions. 00:25:35 I don't generally play games in the first place that involve dice rolling 00:25:48 Jiminy_Cricket: But what about your secret government intercepting mission plot?! 00:25:51 HOW WILL YOU DO THAT 00:25:57 Ooh snap. 00:26:05 The answer to that is always 42. 00:26:16 That is some lame die 00:27:40 Yeah 00:30:12 ehird: Do it once more. 00:30:22 GregorR: You be alice this time? 00:30:31 No, the exploit is on the bob side X-P 00:30:39 (If I understand how this works) 00:30:43 roll 100 33248a78e79acc6449bc3a33f8cfe091fca71de1 00:31:01 I would love for this roll to be below 50, so I'm gonna go ahead and say 00:31:02 rolled 1 00:31:12 final roll 22 (bKog8Sj6d+Drz08+aVajVZaRPgFCWL4HtggJZPAFSn1hkdUL2bPB6IMnOj67H4bRhUQ=) 00:31:14 Well, yeah, that works. 00:31:18 But you can't actually precisely do anything. 00:31:28 No, but usually it's the range you care about. 00:31:29 also 00:31:32 GregorR: it's easy to fix 00:31:36 instead of two /2 numbers added 00:31:42 have two full numbers, added together, modulo. 00:31:55 There ya goes. 00:31:59 HOWEVER 00:32:09 That means the final answer has to have another field 00:32:17 Wait no 00:32:20 it means it's unworkable, I think 00:32:39 GregorR: How do you get a from ((a + b) % x) if you know b and x?? 00:32:56 is it even possible :| 00:33:01 or am i having a brainfart 00:33:02 at 0:33 00:34:30 I know multiplication is not generally reversible, but addition should be. 00:34:51 (y-b)%x where y was your result? 00:35:24 that seems to work 00:37:51 GregorR: oh, right 00:37:53 i'll do it tomorrow 00:38:13 bye 00:52:08 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 01:11:33 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 01:12:09 :D 01:44:06 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:45:15 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 03:07:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | after I... squash the countless bugs.. 03:13:10 hey GregorR 03:13:14 what hat did you wear today 03:13:40 I couldn't find the one voted for so I wore my porkpie. 03:18:19 http://codu.org/hats/BritDrivingCap-med.jpg 03:18:21 that one is pretty cool 03:24:50 Then you should fly in on Saturday :P 03:32:54 interesting... the newest noscript gives me "Clickjacking" warnings on choosemyhat.com if I click outside the table... o_O 03:33:07 seemingly randomly, too 03:35:22 -!- immibis has joined. 03:35:42 ersion nickser 03:35:45 er 03:35:57 stupid client 03:36:50 fungot hi 03:36:51 immibis: is there a way to 03:36:54 fungot yes 03:36:54 immibis: when i flunk out of life, the universe and everything 03:37:08 fungot you're not part of life the universe and everythingh 03:37:08 immibis: and there's the configuration edition thingie, at least 03:37:23 fungot yeah that config edition is really stupid 03:37:24 immibis: now, we have a /pub for images and such 03:37:33 ... 03:42:33 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Connection timed out). 04:23:32 -!- ab5tract has joined. 04:24:18 fungot bring da mthfckn ruckus 04:24:18 ab5tract: ( how did the day turn out, points of contention here: 04:24:32 fungot: word up 04:24:33 ab5tract: oy vei. don't have that 04:24:48 seems you got plenty to me friend. 04:41:31 AnMaster: dig the spec 04:45:38 honored to take part, if you end up going with hasp 05:03:19 i like the reflecting compare, but i also like the 'C|-' syntax. would it be totally unreasonable to ask for both? 05:38:17 -!- Elizabot has joined. 05:46:00 -!- Elizabot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:52:10 -!- Elizabot has joined. 05:52:20 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 06:12:09 ^echo elizabot: Hi. 06:12:09 elizabot: Hi. elizabot: Hi. 06:12:11 fungot: Please go on. 06:12:12 Elizabot: or, more properly, in python 06:12:12 fungot: What does that suggest to you ? 06:12:13 Elizabot: or set-car! to a non-char type analysis ( so you always get a car later) 06:12:13 fungot: Can you think of a specific example ? 06:12:14 Elizabot: part of your colon? 06:12:14 fungot: Why are you concerned over my colon ? 06:12:14 Elizabot: i'm still on the todo list, but it was 06:12:15 fungot: Is it because you are still on the todo list that you came to me ? 06:12:23 lol 06:13:26 -!- immibis has quit (Client Quit). 06:16:58 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 06:20:19 ehird: You get a%x from (a+b)%x if you know b and x; doesn't matter, of course, if you limit yourself to numbers in [0, x-1]. And if you noticed, I did use numbers [0, 19] for d20 precisely for that reason. 06:33:43 -!- Elizabot has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:46:14 fungot: insane in the membrane 06:46:32 fungot: (insane in the BRaIN! 06:47:26 Hmm. 06:47:47 Your first comment crasheded it. I _really_ need to debug that bug. 06:47:51 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:48:15 -!- fungot has joined. 06:49:51 which one is that? 06:50:01 fizzie: is it allergic to cypress hill? 06:50:10 fungot: insane in the membrane 06:50:10 ab5tract: great that you found a new spot? 06:50:39 i feel that way too. #esoteric is my ideal place to be fungot, thank you for noticing 06:50:40 ab5tract: i always start with a 06:51:17 That one, yes. Since it's in the babble-generation code, it probably doesn't depend on the input; it just happens pretty rarely. 06:51:27 fizzie: how would you imagine the ideal funge ide 06:51:49 do you think it would be possible to write a funge ide in funge 06:51:51 ? 06:52:13 assuming AnMaster comes through with the erlang threads 06:52:16 -!- olsner has joined. 06:52:17 Not without some GUI toolkit binding fingerprint, no. Although there's WIND, but that's windows-only and so very primitive. 06:52:45 are there any gooey kits for erlang? 06:53:07 Don't know about Erlang; I'm sure there are, most languages seem to have bindings. 06:53:15 but theoretically it would be possible 06:53:23 that would be pretty dope 06:53:38 Okay, maybe a text-based funge IDE, with TERM... but I think a GUI thing would have more opportunities for displaying things. 06:53:43 i have a pretty good idea of how i would want to use it 06:53:58 s/use/implement/ 06:54:06 yeah 06:54:38 it needs to be able to render the broader map 06:55:37 and then various levels of zoom and with a heirarchical fingerprint/method list 06:55:56 that way we could really start talking advantage of this 32-bit address space 06:56:09 which we might as well bump up to 64 for fun :) 06:56:40 and the 3-d mode for trefunge... 06:56:50 Doesn't cfunge already do that? At least it does 64-bit cells, it only stands to reason the cell addresses are 64-bit too. 06:57:06 they have to be equal to fit spec 06:57:19 you're right i forgot 06:58:05 Well, the spec says "A Funge-98 interpreter, *ideally*, has an addressing range equal to that of its cell size." [emphasis mine] so maybe it's not a must. 06:58:14 ahh 06:58:23 you're right 06:58:24 Still, given how AnMaster is, I'd be surprised if it didn't. 06:58:33 hehe 07:34:08 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:36:14 -!- kar8nga has quit (Client Quit). 07:39:08 -!- ab5tract has quit. 07:40:29 GregorR: My roommates think that you look like a princess in your Egyptian Kofia. 07:40:33 Thought you should know. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:44 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:06:01 lol roommates 08:14:22 so oerjan 08:14:32 hm? 08:14:51 how do you force interpretation of a language to be parallel? 08:15:31 did i or did i not mention that concurrency was one of my weak points yesterday? 08:15:49 ...i wasn't here yesterday 08:17:10 although it surely depends on what you mean by 'force', since any parallel computation can be simulated on a sequential computer, just slower 08:17:27 yeah 08:17:30 well how about this 08:18:08 can you force interpretation of a program with n instructions to take exp(n) times longer than a reasonable language? 08:19:42 i'm not sure parallel execution is enough to speed n instructions up by exp(n). 08:19:53 looks more like an NP oracle thing 08:20:10 or PSPACE 08:20:24 it is with exp(n) threads 08:21:31 er... so the program is making a choice in each instruction, and the threads are used to do all options for all choices simultaneously 08:22:29 hm that may be a bit more than NP, but probably not more than PSPACE 08:22:31 you can optimize that though 08:23:00 the same way you convert a nondeterministic fsm to deterministic fsm 08:23:23 however in any case it is still an unsolved mathematical problem whether any of those are actually intrinsically slower 08:25:19 oh and maybe if the parallel threads can communicate you can get something harder 08:25:33 you want an EXPTIME problem. 08:28:08 well i don't know 08:30:23 maybe a syntax that takes exponential time to parse 08:32:40 well general grammars (more than context-free) are TC to parse 08:32:59 and context-sensitive are PSPACE-complete 08:38:56 bsmntbombdood: forcing parallellism is one of the things I'm dealing with in my University 4th-year projects 08:42:19 why would you want to force parallellism? 08:50:13 DRAFT! DRAFT! DRAFT! DRAFT! DRAFT! DRAFT! DRAFT! DRAFT! DRAFT! DRAFT! DRAFT! 08:50:15 hmm... I like the way that some people seem to disregard such warnings anyway 08:51:28 draft can be dangerous to your health you know. there was this norwegian woman who ended up with a painful disease that ruined her face... 09:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | he says there's nine bytes of padding. 09:09:37 that's a bit close for comfort 09:17:13 so 09:17:16 i have an esolang idea 09:17:18 wanna hear? 09:17:21 yes 09:17:28 well it's the 3-sat thing 09:17:42 but, i think i've found a way to do numbers now 09:17:53 and by that i mean, assign rationals to the vars 09:18:01 and perform division and multiplication between them 09:18:10 but let's start with syntax 09:18:16 am i interrupting something? 09:18:29 aaanyway, the syntax, currently, consists of just a list of variables 09:18:36 there are four ways to denote a variable 09:18:51 argh my silent meditation, you're ruining it! 09:18:59 the ways are a..z, A..Z, .a.b.c....z, .A.B.C....Z 09:19:18 a..z and A..Z are simply variables that aren't in any way special 09:19:36 .a and friends are variables, that are always true with a 0.5 probability 09:19:47 a is the negation of A, and .a is the negation of .A 09:19:55 now 09:20:11 the actual program consists of triples, written simply by concatenating three variables 09:20:17 like, a line of code could be 09:20:26 Abc ABc AbC ABC 09:20:57 that means (A or not B or not C) and (A or B or not C) and ... 09:21:09 on every line, 3-sat is run on the set of clauses 09:21:28 now this is simple sofar, we've just set A to 1 09:21:34 yes 09:21:39 good 09:21:43 but, this is the interesting part 09:22:13 let's assume we haven't set A to anything, and start with no vars set 09:22:26 we can set A to 0.5 by doing something like this 09:23:09 A.aB A.ab a.AB a.Ab 09:23:28 if you cannot see why, which i'm assuming you don't, i can show how to deduce that 09:24:13 we start with A = .A, because we want to set A to 0.5, that is, we want to "make A true with a 0.5 probability" 09:24:43 (.A's value has nothing to do with A's value initially, i'm just starting naming from A with both kinds of vars) 09:25:18 (A = .A) = (a ^ .a) v (A ^ .A) 09:26:20 well, i actually used a truth table, thought i could deduce this easily :P 09:26:21 hmmhmm 09:26:52 (a ^ .a) v (A ^ .A) = (a ^ .a ^ b) v (A ^ .A ^ B) v (a ^ .a ^ b) v (A ^ .A ^ b) 09:27:05 this is clearly true, we've added a variable that, given either value, makes this true 09:27:45 now, we should turn the minterm representation into a maxterm one 09:28:17 so we take all the cases that make the statement false 09:28:50 that is, (A ^ .a ^ b) v (A ^ .a ^ B) v (a ^ .A ^ b) v (a ^ .A ^ b) 09:29:08 and we kinda flip it, to get 09:29:26 (A v .a v b) ^ (A v .a v B) ^ (a v .A v b) ^ (a v .A v b) 09:30:04 and then it's a simply syntactic manipulation to get A.aB A.ab a.AB a.Ab 09:30:11 err 09:30:37 i actually had an error there, let's see where i made it... 09:30:42 i should've prepared this :P 09:30:52 ah don't worry 09:31:00 did you get it? 09:31:00 try preparing and then pastebinning 09:31:05 and no, I haven't done yet 09:31:11 but I haven't really being paying attention 09:31:15 I'm still in go-through-email phase 09:31:19 hehe 09:31:21 and I was planning to logread it later 09:31:32 ah i see 09:31:41 well perhaps i'll do it properly in a pastebin 09:32:04 hmm 09:32:14 seems i need to go now. be back as soon as possible 09:32:22 because this is not even the interesting part yet 09:32:24 -> 09:35:18 assuming AnMaster comes through with the erlang threads 09:35:19 Still, given how AnMaster is, I'd be surprised if it didn't. 09:35:21 hm? 09:36:16 Doesn't cfunge already do that? At least it does 64-bit cells, it only stands to reason the cell addresses are 64-bit too. <-- well yeah 09:36:21 and efunge have bignum cells 09:36:53 ais523, hi btw 09:37:03 hi AnMaster 09:37:12 ais523, have you seen the ATR spec? 09:37:19 oh wait yeah you posted the DRAFT bit 09:37:24 yes, well allowing for the typo yes 09:37:35 ais523, what typo? 09:37:39 "ATR spec" 09:37:43 ah right 09:38:03 ais523, I just had breakfast, and I'm not a person that is good with mornings 09:38:10 heh, same 09:38:15 well, I'm alright with mornings 09:38:20 but only if I've had a good night's sleep 09:38:20 ais523, anyway, any comments on the spec? 09:38:23 which I haven't 09:38:30 ais523, also mutex needs to be renamed 09:38:36 "hasp" was a good suggestion 09:38:41 maybe you got something better? 09:38:49 lock is too common as well 09:38:50 I don't normally deal with that sort of threading stuff 09:39:01 the threading stuff I deal with is much crazier 09:39:05 the point is "mutex" and "lock" are too common words 09:39:07 for this 09:39:17 so I need a better, more original name 09:39:17 do it like INTERCAL, have commands which dynamically delete themselves from the playfield when encountered 09:39:24 atomically with whatever it is they were meant to be doing in the first place 09:39:29 hehe 09:39:50 ais523, making stuff atomic here isn't very easy I'm afraid :/ 09:40:17 ais523, either it is async message passing (or blocking waiting for reply) 09:40:33 or it is the set of actions restricted by ets tables 09:40:42 ah, ok 09:40:52 the G P and C will need some complex locking 09:40:58 well yeah for C to work 09:41:16 Note that an implementation _may_ make g, p and other such instructions 09:41:16 synchronous as well, but it is not guaranteed. Block access should never be 09:41:16 synchronous. 09:41:24 at least to begin with that will be true 09:41:29 for my implementation 09:41:41 g, p and such will be sync as well that is 09:42:32 ais523, anyway do you have any knowledge of pthreads? Would this be painful to implement there? 09:42:46 I don't have much knowledge of pthreads, and no idea 09:42:50 hm 09:43:48 it should be reasonably ok in erlang, only need G,P and C to handle a global lock there, since there is no atomic thing I can use as C on ets tables 09:56:06 be back soon, rebooting (I've just upgraded the kernel) 10:29:42 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p545622444.txt 10:29:47 ais523: back yet? 10:29:53 yes 10:29:59 you can find out by /pinging me 10:30:10 if I'm not here you won't get a reply 10:30:47 check that out, probably doesn't make that much sense, in which case you can ask further questions 10:30:50 ais523, I got a reply sometimes when you said just a few minutes after that your connection had failed 10:30:52 so hm 10:30:53 assuming you'll read that at some point 10:31:12 yes, you have to wait for the bouncer to notice I'm not here first 10:31:16 which i hope you do, because i think it's a pretty interesting idea 10:32:50 oklopol, a question about that 10:32:53 (B = .A) ^ (c v C) 10:33:03 yes? 10:33:09 oklopol, are C and c variables? 10:33:11 yes 10:33:16 oklopol, and v? 10:33:18 c is the negation of C, as i explain there 10:33:19 oh 10:33:23 "v" is "or" 10:33:31 oklopol, ".[A-Z] (and .[a-z]) denote variables (and their negations)" 10:33:35 "^" is "and" 10:33:37 then it is inconsistent 10:33:54 actually 10:33:59 i should've escaped . i guess 10:34:08 oklopol, hm? 10:34:16 so you need .c and .C? 10:34:20 .[A-Z] as in, "\.[A-Z]" 10:34:21 well that could work 10:34:31 .[A-Z] aren't normal variables 10:34:33 [A-Z] are 10:34:36 oklopol: .[A-Z] is perfectly good wildmat syntax 10:34:51 .[A-Z] (and .[a-z]) denote variables (and their negations) that are true with a 0.5 possibility 10:34:56 hmm 10:35:04 well yeah, the issue was it seemed to suggest that v was also a variable 10:35:09 it seems i've removed the line that explains actual variables :P 10:35:14 oklopol, yep 10:35:27 AnMaster: well that's not the actual language's syntax, just logic to show how to deduce the program 10:35:56 oklopol, still better explain variables too 10:36:19 btw, is it turing complete or not? 10:37:47 my guess is it'll be turing-complete once oklopol figures out how to do flow control 10:37:57 ah 10:39:00 yes 10:39:11 but sofar, i've only solved the issue of infinite storage 10:39:44 oklopol: is it retrievable, though 10:39:49 I see how to store rationals into variables 10:39:52 yes 10:39:53 but how do you get them back out again? 10:39:56 oh 10:40:03 well i'm not *entirely* sure 10:40:17 but you can "or" variables to get them to grow in probability 10:40:33 so i'm pretty sure you can somehow encode integers that can be inc'd and dec'd 10:40:52 also 10:40:54 yes 10:41:06 as it's 3-sat, i'm pretty sure it's a two-way operation 10:41:07 but being able to tinker with a probability is no good if you can't find out what it is 10:41:10 so you can do something like 10:41:14 ah 10:41:22 well i could make things depend on whether something is 1 10:41:25 so 10:41:28 1 can represent 0 10:41:31 are there any gooey kits for erlang? 10:41:31 Don't know about Erlang; I'm sure there are, most languages seem to have bindings. 10:41:33 well there is gs 10:41:37 which uses tk 10:41:39 and 1/(2^n) can represent n 10:41:50 now, i can inc and dec as much as i want, and branch on 0 10:41:56 which is what register machines do 10:42:01 I also seen some custom GUI toolkit rendered to opengl 10:42:05 used by wings3d 10:42:11 And "erlgtk" in sf.net. 10:42:12 a 3d modeller coded in erlang 10:42:17 fizzie, hm, erlqt? 10:42:34 anyway gs is there by default 10:42:42 so, A = B + 1: A = B ^ .A; A = B - 1: B = A ^ .A 10:43:20 and is used for the erlang debugger and some other bits 10:43:32 ais523: got it? 10:43:56 ah, ok 10:44:16 depending on probability 1 seems a bit non-physical, really 10:44:19 but I suppose it makes sense 10:44:30 atm, I'm just annoyed with this VHDL project I'm doing 10:44:39 I wrote it recursively originally but it crashed the compiler 10:44:46 (I even got the compiler to segfault at one point) 10:44:48 fizzie, anyway I guess one could provide bindings for esdl to efunge... Would be pretty mad probably 10:44:50 so I rewrote it iterativel 10:44:53 *iteratively 10:45:00 might as well have "evaluate erlang term" or such 10:45:02 which is a pain for parallelised mergesort 10:45:37 anyway, now I'm trying it on a different compiler 10:45:41 and it's reporting an internal error 10:45:45 even for the iterative version 10:45:49 ais523, not very helpful 10:46:00 and the line number it gives is in its own source code, only it's closed-source... 10:46:11 ais523, what about using an open source one? 10:46:41 I am, for simulation 10:46:42 ais523: non-physical? i'm using an np-complete operation as the basic unit of computation, you think i care? :P 10:46:49 oklopol: OK 10:46:59 ais523, and report that internal error as a bug to the developers 10:47:00 AnMaster: but you need proprietary synthesisers to synthesise for proprietary FPGAs 10:47:06 like the ones we have to use in the assignment 10:47:07 it's probably already tc if i just add a while loop. 10:47:35 assuming i have a scope for the loops 10:47:41 hmm... not only is there an internal error, but the webpage that's meant to describe what the error is is 404 10:47:51 ais523, ok that sucks 10:47:52 now I have to guess what the problem is 10:48:19 probably it's what VHDL was warning me about, for loops with exponentiation in the calculation of their bounds 10:48:49 ais523, and how do you avoid that? 10:48:49 (VHDL is very weird, most langs wouldn't care about something like that, but you have to understand that synthesis-VHDL has + - and *, but / is only possible by a constant power of 2, for instance) 10:49:09 AnMaster: my guess is to pass the entity both the number of bits and 2 to its power as generics 10:49:18 then loop too many times and use ifs to do nothing when the loop counter is too high 10:49:20 huh 10:49:23 that sounded strange 10:49:29 VHDL is strange 10:50:03 it's the only lang I know of where arrays are normally numbered backwards 10:50:12 i.e. the first element is some large number, the last element is 0 10:50:26 ais523, why on earth? 10:50:41 because an integer is normally represented as an array of bits 10:50:45 and that's the way bits are normally numbered 10:50:54 it gets very confusing trying to do it the other way round 10:51:02 oh? 10:51:39 does anyone have ideas for a name for a language based on doing 3-sat with probabilities? 10:51:42 say you have 128, as a std_logic_vector 10:51:46 oerjan: this may be your field 10:51:54 then you want to extract the least significant bit 10:52:04 slicing it with (0) makes a lot more sense than slicing it with (7) 10:52:09 ais523, yep, that depends on endianness 10:52:21 well, you define the endianness yourself in VHDL 10:52:26 ais523, what about if you want the most significant bit then? 10:52:30 i don't like acronyms, i prefer puns of some kind 10:52:39 but bits within a byte are nearly always big-endian in practice 10:52:51 and you could write that as myvector'left 10:52:57 well, myvector(myvector'left) 10:53:09 ais523, does x86 have a bitendianness? 10:53:11 huh 10:53:22 AnMaster: what is this x86 you're talking about? 10:53:28 ais523: is VHDL a Lesser Language than Verilog? 10:53:35 oklopol: they started out different 10:53:43 and by that i mean more low-level 10:53:44 but after a while all the features from each were added to the other 10:53:48 haha 10:53:52 ais523, don't be silly, I was just wondering if bits are little- or big-endian on x86 10:53:54 i just know verilog 10:53:56 so nowadays they're the same lang with different syntax 10:54:17 AnMaster: the x86 doesn't have bit-extract operations IIRC 10:54:21 well that's nice, syntax is what i learn the fastest 10:54:34 most of the processors I know of that do number bits big-endian though 10:54:38 ais523, indeed it doesn't, but internally it need to have some endianess for them 10:54:43 why? 10:54:44 ah right 10:54:49 the bits are on parallel wires, normally 10:54:52 no ideas for the name? guess i need to switch my brain to text mode 10:55:03 ais523, what about serial interfaces then? 10:55:06 they're usually in math mode when designing the language 10:55:11 AnMaster: they can be defined either way round 10:55:22 I'm not sure offhand which RS-232 is 10:55:26 ais523, ok, what about sata? 10:55:27 which is embarrasing because I ought to be 10:55:59 oklopol, "they"? 10:56:17 AnMaster: i use plural and singular interchangeably when talking about brains 10:56:58 well yeah the English way is pretty strange there... in Swedish you would use something like brainhalf when referring to the left or right part 10:57:59 AnMaster: apparently SATA doesn't use either, it uses a lookup table to translate bytes into something more balanced 10:58:17 computers are fine with a glut of 1s or 0s 10:58:22 the fun thing about loops is, this language is like prolog in that nothing you state is forgotten, ever, unless things go out of scope 10:58:28 but fast cables don't like sending the same bit lots of times in a row 10:58:37 so the program is just an incredibly big set of clauses :P 10:58:42 ais523, heh 10:58:47 let's try writing an infinite loop and invent flow control 10:59:00 so basically it uses a lookup table to map the 256 possible bytes onto sets of 10 bits with balanced 0s and 1s 10:59:05 thus no endianess involved 10:59:48 ais523, what about using more than 1/0 when sending, having say 1,1.5,2,2.5 or so 11:00:09 that doesn't help in practice for digital signals 11:00:16 I mean generically it ought to be good data compression 11:00:22 the data rate stays the same, because the noise susceptability gets worse 11:00:28 so say you use 4 logic levels 11:00:37 you have to halve the speed to keep the signal/noise performance the same 11:00:42 ais523, did anyone ever use that on old modems to provide higher speed? 11:01:08 I seriously doubt it, doubling the clock rate is normally a lot cheaper in circuitry than doubling the number of logic levels 11:01:14 ais523, hm 11:01:16 ok 11:01:18 on the other hand, that sort of technique is used on radio signals all the time 11:01:23 oh? 11:01:24 as they don't have constant voltages anyway 11:01:28 you mean for vlan and such? 11:01:30 err 11:01:31 wlan* 11:01:46 well, that sort of thing 11:01:52 hm 11:01:53 also on wires which are sending waves rather than pulses 11:02:03 but that's less common, normally only used for fibre optics and such 11:02:07 ah 11:02:15 because light is inherently a wave 11:02:28 ais523, as well as a particle :P 11:02:50 yes 11:03:01 but the wave-like nature matters more if you're sending with lots of photons at once 11:03:09 which most communication systems do 11:03:32 anyway having 4 logic levels would allow you to encode bit-pairs. like 00 01 10 11 11:04:00 which ought to double the speed in theory 11:05:14 you don't even need to describe an uneven number of bits, since bytes are 8 bits and you never send anything less than bytes anyway 11:08:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:11:39 oerjan: this may be your field 11:11:43 no immediate ideas 11:12:06 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p633146536.txt <<< using the vars as numbers 11:12:31 ok, NoProb pops up 11:12:48 is there a justification for No? 11:13:00 only to make the pun work 11:13:09 and the initials 11:13:13 :D 11:13:16 wow i missed that 11:13:52 you see, i need to be able to explain all the parts of the name to myself 11:13:58 out of the realm of the pun 11:14:13 must be completely sensible both as a pun and as just a name 11:14:14 but 11:14:45 that's a good name 11:14:52 :) 11:15:03 thankses! 11:15:12 hmhmm 11:15:38 looping is a bit hard to do, because i don't want to do it like prolog does, and i don't want mutable variables 11:16:11 so i want an explicit looping construct with scoping so i can create new variables 11:16:45 well 11:17:01 i guess i'll just start from the top, and convert something prolog-like into 11:17:04 explicit looping 11:17:43 oh, basically i want a construct that simulates tail-recursion 11:18:58 it's a while loop that's basically a procedure, the "scope" is simply the list of arguments, and after the loop, we recurse with some variables we created in the body as the new arguments 11:19:09 i'll try making an example 11:19:28 ah, the lecturer here has solved my VHDL compiler problem 11:19:32 by giving me a third compiler 11:19:43 (and it seems to handle the code fine) 11:27:44 also, VHDL is the only lang I think I've ever written a for loop which only ever iterates once 11:28:42 always exactly once? or once or zero 11:28:50 always exactly once 11:29:07 and this seemed like a good idea at the time? 11:29:15 it still seems like a good idea now 11:29:17 it saved a lot of typing 11:29:33 basically I used it to define a variable at compile-time 11:29:36 oerjan: i'm pretty sure he's written brainfuck, and i'm pretty sure he's done ifs 11:29:38 except 11:29:40 a constant with a calculated value 11:29:41 they're while-loops 11:29:45 so ignore me. 11:30:02 by having it at both ends of the control range 11:30:09 and using the iteration count as a constant 11:30:24 for-generate loops are always unrolled at compile time in VHDL 11:30:29 and I'm taking advantage of that here 11:31:53 is this just a way to simulate functional-style let expressions? 11:32:03 yes 11:32:34 given that the expression in question is (2**inputcountbits)*((depth*(depth-1)/2)-1)+(2**depth)*height, I think it was justified 11:32:48 also I use that value 12 times within the 'loop' 11:33:01 i'm just surprised there is no simpler way 11:33:20 generally speaking people don't do expressions that complicated at compile-time 11:33:30 heh, I even have a compile-time bit-reversal function 11:33:34 but that's written as a procedure 11:33:46 I can do that because it's never involved in the control variable of a for-generate loop 11:33:58 ah so it's something Man was not meant to do 11:34:14 clearly some good Mad Science, then 11:34:23 well, more to the point, it's because most of VHDL is deliberately limited to simple stuff 11:34:30 because most VHDL synthesisers are stupid 11:34:46 for instance there are some cases where and isn't commutative 11:34:59 simply because if you write the arguments the other way round, the synthesiser won't recognise the idiom 11:35:12 so one way round works, the other is a compile failure 11:36:58 ais523, so non-idiomatic VHDL is a bad idea? 11:37:02 yes 11:37:07 huh 11:37:10 you have to memorise the idioms more or less 11:37:29 hmm... it's sufficiently annoying, actually, that I'm thinking about writing a compiler from non-idiomatic VHDL to idiomatic VHDL 11:37:49 which let you express all the things which are very difficult to express in idiomatic VHDL 11:38:13 heheh... 11:38:48 for instance, it took me about an hour to figure out how to express a latch that can be sampled at the leading edge of any of a set of clocks 11:38:57 it involves a latch for each clock, and lots of XORs 11:39:19 so each clock toggles one latch whenever it wants to toggle the output, and the latch's outputs are xored together 11:40:08 nonidiomatically you just need to write leading_edge(clock1) or leading_edge(clock2), which is so much simpler... 11:42:40 ouch 11:43:18 anyway, going to get lunch now, I'll be back in a bit 11:50:58 ais is 523 feet tall 11:57:02 okay, i think the language's semantics are complete now, and i think it's TC, but it's so weird i'm not sure i have the courage to spec it. 11:57:12 bye ais523 11:57:18 (and hi ais523) 11:59:43 22:20:19 ehird: You get a%x from (a+b)%x if you know b and x; doesn't matter, of course, if you limit yourself to numbers in [0, x-1]. And if you noticed, I did use numbers [0, 19] for d20 precisely for that reason. 11:59:56 Yeah, but, there are two rolls of sides that added mod sides 12:01:13 Yes, that's what I did. 12:02:07 " I want to roll a d20, my hash is -- okay, my [1, *20*] random number is " 12:03:13 fizzie: the point is, at the end, you have to use the crazy hash data to seed the prng, generate a number (which will be equal to a's!!), then check that it's alice's part 12:03:15 if ((alices_num + num) % sides) == final: 12:03:17 seems to work fine 12:03:44 fizzie: version 2.0: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1229263 12:03:59 Usage: 'python roll.py [sides|100]' 12:04:10 If you add 'alice' to the end of the arguments, you are the diceroller persony thing. 12:04:23 When it outputs a line, paste it to IRC, when you get a line from IRC, paste it in. 12:04:26 Looking. 12:04:44 Nobody apart from me has tested being alice, so feel free to do that if you want. 12:07:41 I'm not sure I see the need of the PRNG there, instead of just taking the seed modulo sides. It's random, already. 12:08:04 Oops there's a bug on b's side. 12:08:08 change sides/2 to sides 12:08:25 fizzie: because it didn't have an even distribution when i tried that 12:08:34 it had a strong bias to small numbers. 12:08:51 but yeah if you want to test it changes sides/2 to sides and run it as 'python roll.py 100 alice' :-P 12:09:20 That's strange, /dev/random bits should be uniformly distributed. 12:09:39 fizzie: They are, but play up when modulo'd. 12:10:13 I think it'd work if the sides were divisible by the number of the bits or some silly thing like that 12:10:22 It should be a pretty small bias when you have a big number (is that 50 bytes?) and are computing modulo a small number of sides. 12:10:39 fizzie: oh, yeah, 50 bytes. And, well, the sides is arbitary. 12:10:42 I guess involving the PRNG can help, though. 12:10:51 I've been testing with 100 sides, but 10 sides and 1000 sides are perfectly reasonable. 12:11:58 " I think it'd work if the sides were divisible by the number of the bits or some silly thing like that" <-- you need the MAX_INT_FOR_YOUR_SIZE % MAX_SIDES == 0 12:12:03 I think 12:12:14 Right.. 12:12:18 *Right. 12:12:22 So I've brought the PRNG in. 12:12:24 It's a bias, yes, I just wonder how easy it should be to notice. 12:12:45 alright. should we test? Let's do 1000 sides, for the novelty. I'll be bob. 12:12:50 fizzie, depends on the values of MAX_INT_FOR_YOUR_SIZE and MAX_SIDES 12:13:58 doo doo 12:14:34 -!- jix has joined. 12:15:47 I mean... if you take a uniformly distributed unsigned 32-bit number, so [0, 4294967295], and do modulo 1000, you still get a probability of .00099999983585 for [0, 295] and .00100000006868 for [296, 999]. That's something that's not very noticeable. 12:15:51 Let's see. 12:16:09 Yeah, but, 10 sided dice. 12:16:11 Are far more common :-P 12:16:33 Yes, and the bias is even smaller there. 12:17:44 .09999999990686774 vs. .10000000013969 for ranges [0, 5] and [6, 9]. 12:18:05 fizzie: Well, shush you. :-P 12:18:13 Are there any actual _advantages_? 12:18:34 Less complex, and you don't have to trust your PRNG to do anything sensible. Not much else. 12:19:20 hi ais523 12:19:30 fizzie: Well, fine, I'll make it do that 12:19:41 Because you're a communist. :| 12:20:02 back 12:20:06 If you want to do it without bias, you'll need to take a number in range [0, K] where K % sides == 0; you can do that by discarding unfun values. 12:20:10 Oh, right, roll 1000 c21ca587f12bd71d1ac8b2e99c5cc3d7a9541efe 12:20:21 wait, wait 12:20:23 i'm patching it 12:20:23 :P 12:20:26 Oh. :/ 12:20:47 also, my email is broken atm 12:20:55 the University's server admins strike again... 12:21:10 fizzie: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1229270 12:21:23 and the Door has gone through a whole load of revisions since Wednesday, it seems 12:21:29 atm it lets me in and out, but not anybody else... 12:21:41 yay 12:21:55 oerjan: why the yay? 12:21:56 Anyway... you can do "limit = max_int / sides * sides" (if you have a truncating division) and then reading random numbers as long as you get something that's = sides. 12:21:59 the admins are regularly on strike? 12:22:14 oerjan: no, just incompetent AFAICT 12:22:17 fizzie: Is the bias ever really that bad? 12:22:25 or maybe competent just Exchange is good enough at breaking to beat them regularl 12:22:28 *regularly 12:22:41 fizzie: I mean, the PRNG is effectively 0-bias. 12:22:47 And... that's a good thing in a dice roller. 12:22:49 I'd say. 12:23:19 also, I have a new mouse now, not that that's particularly relevant 12:23:20 ehird: That just depends on how Python implements the .randint(0, sides) part. 12:23:25 bought it about 10 mins ago because the last one broke 12:23:38 fizzie: Mersenne Twister, I believe. 12:23:43 ais523: congrats 12:23:59 even better, this is Linux, so I can just ignore the install CD 12:24:08 That's the PRNG, but it doesn't say anything how Python reduces it to that range, since that's what causes the bias in the straight-forward modulo thing. 12:24:16 ais523, :) 12:24:24 ais523, as for that door, weird... 12:24:27 * ais523 wonders if move-mouse-wheel-sideways does anything, or is even detected by Linux 12:24:43 probably not, as Emacs seems not to notice it 12:24:44 ais523, ah that I can help with I think 12:24:45 Simply using the computing the next PRNG state and using that modulo N won't help with the bias except that it will bias something else than the small numbers consecurively. 12:24:51 AnMaster: I'm not sure what I'd do with it anyway 12:24:52 ais523, it needs a bit of work in xorg.conf 12:25:02 ais523, not mouse driver, but evdev 12:25:04 or it won't work 12:25:09 ah, ok 12:25:13 what is it meant to do, btw? 12:25:19 fizzie: Okay, true. 12:25:22 even on Windows? 12:25:23 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p543544164.txt <<< a short program written in a noprob wimpmode 12:25:25 ais523, scroll sideways 12:25:26 fizzie: Well, http://pastebin.ca/raw/1229270, and let's try. :-P 12:25:29 I believe 12:25:35 hokay 12:25:36 here goes 12:25:40 ugh, that isn't a particularly common operatoin 12:25:43 ehird: I'm already trying, but it's horribly slow. There's not much entropy going in that box. 12:25:43 ais523, quite good in, say, gimp or similar 12:25:44 test 1 of version 2 of the amazing 12:25:47 amaaaaaaazing 12:25:51 it all depends on what you do 12:25:56 DISTRIBUTED CHEAT-PROOF DICE ROLLER 12:25:57 if it happens on a web page, I hold middle mouse button and use autoscroll (I have firefox set to autoscroll) 12:26:11 ah, and I don't do much graphics, that probably explains it 12:26:30 * oklopol tries again when the traffic dies down a bit 12:26:40 oklopol: I'm looking at that link now 12:26:52 hmm... now I want to invent a mouse which has a trackball under each finger 12:26:58 each of which can be clicked downwards as well as moved 12:27:01 ais523, anyway evdev is a generic thing that can handle most types of HID devices basically 12:27:09 fizzie: For me it's instant. I think OS X /dev/random uses Yarrow... 12:27:16 i'm not that good at speccing, i either give examples or just formally define how to run the language. 12:27:20 err that would be silly "HID devices" since HID means Human Interface Device iirc 12:27:21 so i usually take the example road 12:27:23 but yeah, it's instantaneous for me 12:27:39 wtf does "Probloture" mean? 12:27:41 which isn't really a spec, but perhaps gives you an idea how problotures work 12:27:42 :D 12:27:44 AnMaster: I got the money to buy a HID device from the ATM machine, but I had to enter my PIN number and I got RAS syndrome. 12:27:45 it's a procedure 12:27:51 but you can only do tail-recursive calls 12:27:55 ehird, hehe 12:28:07 ehird, what is RAS? Remote Access Service? 12:28:10 kinda like a lambda that cannot be passed to other lambdas, but it's implicitly passed itself. 12:28:14 AnMaster: Redundant Acronym Syndrome syndrome 12:28:16 look it up 12:28:19 hehe 12:28:50 ehird, and ATM would be Async Transfer Mode to me 12:29:09 AnMaster: Automated Teller Machine. 12:29:10 ais523: procedure + block = probloture 12:29:12 ah, ok 12:29:14 ehird, ah, ok 12:29:24 i couldn't find a sillier way to mix those together 12:29:30 really, though, redundant RAS syndrome is just a syndrome caused by redundant use of acronyms 12:29:30 ehird: Don't know about OS X; at least on Linux reading from /dev/random will block until the kernel thinks it's seen enough entropy to actually return random numbers; and there's not many entropy sources on that box. I assume it uses interrupt timing as one source, but since there's no keyboard/mouse it won't get those very much either. 12:29:39 ais523, also clicking middle button can be a bit hard with a tilting scrollwheel, at least it took a while to learn it for me 12:29:44 Well, there it goes: roll 1000 e62a7161266e41a150dd47f895c3fd3bcccd332d 12:29:52 ais523, since if the wheel is tilted the click doesn't register 12:29:59 fizzie: rolled 664 12:30:02 may be different for you 12:30:07 ehird: on Linux read from /dev/urandom instead if you want it to invent slightly less random numbers rather than waiting for entropy 12:30:14 ais523: no, I want true randomness 12:30:31 ehird, even /dev/random isn't truly random 12:30:36 if i'm paranoid enough to make it distribute over 2 users to eliminate cheating i'm paranoid enough to make sure it's truly random 12:30:37 AnMaster: no 12:30:39 but it's closer than urandom 12:30:50 ais523: This is dice-rolling, after all! You can't be too careful. 12:30:52 oklopol: you realize there is no t in either of the mixed words? 12:31:02 :d 12:31:03 fizzie: Did you notice my reply? 12:31:06 Paste it into the program. :P 12:31:07 oerjan: no i didn't :P 12:31:08 oerjan: t is a contraction of cd in this case 12:31:15 ah 12:31:17 ehird: Nope. 12:31:18 I think 12:31:24 oklopol: looks interesting, I think I get how it works 12:31:25 but yeah i guess it just sounded better. 12:31:26 fizzie: rolled 664 12:31:39 that's some nasty assimilation 12:31:46 ais523: that was the closest to while-loops i could get without adding mutability 12:31:49 final roll 745 (GaA7CjB9HcbwBdFkwZzBe1lsln6sl8JlOe6ZqVT0erl2JyPWGHNG3gnUdzSeHLKARMk=) 12:31:51 or lambdas, or procedures 12:31:56 i didn't want any of those 12:31:56 what do you mean by "mutability" here? 12:32:03 fizzie: Well, my program says you're not a cheating communist. 12:32:15 ais523: that a variable could change value because of something other than backtracking. 12:32:19 ah, ok 12:32:26 also, how do you do the equivalent of an if? 12:32:27 everything that's stated must always be true 12:32:31 ais523: implication 12:32:37 Maybe I should've tried to cheat. 12:32:41 see the example in the end 12:32:53 ah, ok 12:32:57 very VHDL, really 12:33:06 except VHDL doesn't do backtracking 12:33:23 hmm... NoProb : Prolog :: VHDL : C 12:33:29 that's one strange analogy 12:33:36 perhaps something like that :P 12:33:49 NoProb? 12:33:54 what is that language 12:33:56 AnMaster: oklopol's 3-sat language 12:33:57 AnMaster: the language i made today 12:33:59 ah 12:34:03 why that name? 12:34:15 NoProb, NP, 3-sat is an np-complete problem 12:34:19 well, it's a very oklo sort of name 12:34:23 Prob because there's probabilities involved 12:34:25 just because all the vowels are o 12:34:26 ah 12:34:30 the name was from oerjan 12:34:38 I should have guessed 12:34:53 * ais523 wonders how easy it would be to write English without a, e, i, or u 12:34:54 (that oerjan did it) 12:35:14 AnMaster: also I can middle-click even with a tilted scroll wheel 12:35:24 ais523, ah, what mouse is it then? 12:35:30 it's from Toshiba 12:35:34 ah ok 12:35:35 ais523: not so good to do 12:35:37 ais523, is it large? 12:35:42 larger than my old mouse 12:35:48 hmm... 12:35:50 ais523, I have issues finding a large enough mouse, or even large enough keyboard 12:35:52 could be interesting carting it around in a laptop bag, I suppose... 12:35:53 how the fuck can i implement that 12:36:01 a full size pc keyboard is about as small as I can handle 12:36:07 wow 12:36:08 I would prefer slightly larger 12:36:15 ais523, well I got big hands 12:36:21 maybe you should get a projection keyboard, and put it further away from the table 12:36:26 but those take a lot of getting used to 12:36:38 i have tiny hans 12:36:40 *hands 12:36:49 ais523, I also like "deep" keyboards, so laptop ones are horrible, the keys should go down properly 12:36:56 * ais523 tries to imagine AnMaster using an iPhone 12:36:59 full-sized php keyboards suck, this apple keyboard is stretching it a bit 12:37:04 can't reach the very top keys 12:37:05 ais523, I'd rather not 12:37:09 AnMaster: ah, ok, projection keyboards are famous for the keys not going down at all 12:37:22 i could solve 3-sat with brute-force and a few optimizations, the problem is, there are probabilities, so really i'm solving the #P version of it, because i need to enumerate all ways to get truth out of a statement 12:37:24 ais523: the iphone keyboard isn't actually that bad once you get used to it... 12:37:29 my recent agora mails where sent with it 12:37:34 (post-2am bst last night) 12:37:36 ehird: it probably depends on how big yout hands are 12:37:44 ais523: you use one single finger... 12:37:44 also it seems only Microsoft make reasonably sized mice 12:37:48 or two thumbs 12:37:49 which is bloody strange 12:38:09 yet those mice are at least usable even though they are about 1 cm too short 12:38:10 another problem are the recursion vars 12:38:14 Microsoft don't make mice at all, the Microsoft mice are Logitech mice with a different logo on IIRC 12:38:33 ais523, the Logitech ones I seen have been smaller and harder to use 12:38:43 yes, probably they're different hardware specs 12:38:44 I don't know about Microsoft today, but they certainly weren't logitech mice around the Intellimouse Explorer time. 12:38:49 ah, ok 12:38:57 the problem somehow needs to evaluate 3-sat *lazily*, and still *enumerate all possible ways to get 1*, if it's not lazy, it will infloop, if it doesn't enumerate all possibilities, it cannot calculate probabilities 12:38:58 also, does anyone else use less to read email, or is it just me? 12:39:04 AnMaster: are your hands like... joseph merricks 12:39:07 well mine says "Microsoft Comfort Optical Mouse 3000" 12:39:09 ais523: just you 12:39:12 ehird, like who? 12:39:22 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Merrick the elephant man 12:39:26 but, i guess this is my everest, not yours, i think i'll read something 12:39:28 -> 12:39:41 How long is that Comfort three thousand? 12:39:45 ehird, no... 12:39:47 hmm... I've realised that all my 4 or so outstanding problems to solve before I can implement Feather are actually the same problem 12:40:11 ehird, I'm just large. Around 190 cm iirc (189.7 cm I think last I checked) 12:40:25 wow, that is pretty tall 12:40:36 ais523, well yeah, I'm tallest in family 12:40:54 i don't know centimeters for height 12:40:56 bizzarely 12:40:56 the outstanding problem in Feather is: to determine what in the program after a change corresponded to what before a change 12:41:00 (about 3 cm longer than my dad, and 5 cm longer than mom.) 12:41:07 ehird, well try google then 12:41:08 ehird: there are 39 inches in a metre, you can calculate it from that 12:41:12 ais523: yes 12:41:14 AnMaster: also "taller" not "longer" when talking about people 12:41:15 i was just commenting 12:41:17 since i just realised 12:41:21 ais523, ah right 12:41:25 i know some things in metric and some in imperial 12:41:31 same word for both in Swedish... 12:41:47 yes, there's no real reason to draw a distinction 12:41:54 (about 3 cm longer than my dad, and 5 cm longer than mom.) <- heh, this is a rather unfortunate slip derived from being non-native... 12:42:00 in English, I think "taller" is normally used for things that are generally measured upwards 12:42:07 such as people 12:42:08 ehird, which is bloody weird 12:42:09 or tall buildings 12:42:15 ais523, ^ 12:42:18 I meant 12:42:22 whereas longer is used for something that's measured horizontally, like snakes 12:42:34 in finnish, we have separate words for tall and long, except we still use long for people :P 12:42:36 ais523, what about diagonally? 12:42:46 AnMaster: hmm... that's an interesting point 12:42:53 probably I'd use "long" for 45 degrees 12:43:02 ais523, and for 46? 12:43:03 saying someone is tall would be like saying they're "high" 12:43:04 but it would become more likely to be "tall" as it became more vertical 12:43:10 except without the drug connotation 12:43:11 ais523, ok.. 12:43:26 probably it wouldn't be consistent from one speaker to another, probably not even from one speaker to themself 12:43:32 so yes, it's a stupid distinction 12:43:47 i've always been the smallest person in any group of my age 12:43:51 well yeah oklopol, you could use "högt" (high) about a building or so 12:44:01 * ais523 didn't invent English, and normally finds themself agreeing with foreigners when they complain about English being stupid 12:44:04 in Swedish 12:44:06 honestly, i'm about as big as a 9 year old 12:44:10 but long would also work I think 12:44:32 in English "high" would refer to the object itself being a long way above ground, rather than the top of the object 12:44:44 except for buildings sometimes we use "high" anyway despite that rule 12:44:52 ais523: yeah, "that building is really high" 12:44:54 ais523, a tall tower or a high tower? 12:44:57 everything in English seems to have exceptions 12:44:58 AnMaster: both 12:44:59 (a nice interpretation of that is that the building is on drugs) 12:45:03 they mean the same thing 12:45:11 but only for buildings, for some reason 12:45:13 ehird: so, basically, you decided to stop growing your body and used excess on your brain? 12:45:22 a tall aeroplane and a high aeroplane would be quite different 12:45:26 oklopol: no, but it would be amusing to have a huge bulging head 12:45:28 meaning you're actually 15 on irc 12:45:38 or err 16-17 12:45:42 ais523, an aircraft located at a high altitude? 12:45:45 yes 12:45:53 as opposed to an aircraft which measured a lot from top to bottom 12:45:55 sigh 12:45:57 ehird: excess in years, not size 12:45:57 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/77l5b/forget_rss_here_comes_flickrs_lol_feed/ 12:46:03 fi:korkea means "has a large vertical extent", while fi:korkealla means "located at a high altitude". 12:46:04 a lol feed? 12:46:12 ais523: it's just a lolcode bastardization. 12:46:19 why can't flickr have done an underload feed? 12:46:20 is that even possible? 12:46:25 http://api.flickr.com/services/feeds/photos_public.gne?id=68497070@N00&lang=en-us&format=lol The offender. 12:46:37 ais523: it's basically just "made up shit" 12:46:40 except it looks like lolcode 12:46:44 IM IN UR BUCKETS MAKING UP FORMATS <<< i found this pretty funny :o 12:46:49 so did I, actually 12:46:53 but it's the only funny line in the thing 12:46:54 * AnMaster agrees 12:46:57 The fi:-lla suffix is something like the 'on' preposition in English. 12:47:15 fizzie, ok you are worse with suffixes than Swedish then... 12:48:10 Except that the 'on' preposition in English has a whole lotta uses. Well, I guess our suffix has some others, too. 12:48:20 ehird: the commentors are right, though, that is shorter and clearer than XML, even when compressed 12:48:27 fizzie, well yeah 12:48:38 fizzie: it's worse in Latin, "in" and "on" are the same word there 12:48:40 ais523: Well: http://nomic.info/perlnomic/log.rss 12:48:42 is pretty clear 12:48:49 ais523: the distinction of tall and long is not an arbitrary distinction between objects in different angles, it's so you can tell what kind of size the speaker means 12:48:52 fizzie, prepositions never seem to have a 1:1 mapping between languages, for any preposition... 12:49:47 ehird: well, OK, it still has lots of unnecessary stuff in though 12:49:50 Guys. A blast from the past: http://web.archive.org/web/20040130154403/http://mozilla.org/. Who remembers going there?! 12:50:03 They told you to nab mozilla 1.6 with that flashy silver icon. 12:50:03 someone should invent a YAML version of RSS 12:50:12 "Mozilla Firebird" was a technology preview. 12:50:12 ais523: been done 12:50:16 good 12:50:18 by why the lucky stiff, it's !okay/news 12:50:20 but...nobody uses it 12:50:23 now someone should make it widely used 12:50:24 because nothing supports it 12:50:32 i think the _only_ implementor is hobix for obvious reasons 12:50:49 but yeah, share in my wow at that old mozilla homepage 12:51:11 ehird, why wow? 12:51:20 AnMaster: because it's a blast from the past, so shush 12:51:33 I never understood nostalgia 12:51:38 that reddit entry about the Google quine is quite interesting 12:51:45 ais523, google quine? 12:51:51 link? 12:51:53 AnMaster: that's because you're an inhuman, lifeless machine. :| 12:51:53 google a number and return that many results 12:52:01 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/77o4g/proggit_chalenge_find_a_number_n_which_when/ is the discussion 12:52:07 apparently 545000 works for some people 12:52:14 but it returned 548000 when I tried 12:52:20 Results 1 - 10 of about 548,000 for 545000. (0.05 seconds) 12:52:22 not really 12:52:24 indeed 12:52:46 its obvious why 12:52:48 google indexes reddit really rapidly. 12:52:51 "I have discovered a truly marvelous number with this property but I can't post it here, because then Google would index my comment and it wouldn't be valid any longer." 12:52:52 hehehe 12:52:57 and all the sites that nab stuff from reddit 12:54:03 AnMaster: Anything natural-language-related is just exceptions on top of other exceptions. For example our adessive case (the "-lla" suffix) has the basic meaning "on top of something" or "around something", but it's also used to indicate possession; "the cat has ears" is "kissalla on korvat", which literally translated would be "there are ears on top of the cat". 12:54:40 fizzie, that sounds hilarious in Swedish 12:54:54 considering "korv" means "sausage" 12:55:05 not that "on" means anything 12:55:10 Falukorv, right. 12:55:20 fizzie, well that is one variant 12:55:30 It's the famous one. :p 12:55:38 mm, falukorv 12:55:50 lunch -> 12:56:12 -!- oerjan has quit ("DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT"). 12:56:50 We've got something called "lauantaimakkara", literally "Saturday sausage"; I've never been quite clear what's very Saturday-like about it. It's pretty tasteless. 12:56:54 DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT 12:58:29 grr 12:58:46 please please don't let this become sort of channel in-joke 12:58:50 it is just too silly for that 12:59:13 AnMaster: you've pretty much guaranteed it will now 12:59:24 DD!!RR!!AA!!FF!!TT!!!!!!!!!!DD!!RR!!AA!!FF!!TT!!!!!!!!!!DD!!RR!!AA!!FF!!TT!!!!!!!!!!DD!!RR!!AA!!FF!!TT!!!!!!!!!!DD!!RR!!AA!!FF!!TT!!!!!!!!!!DD!!RR!!AA!!FF!!TT!!!!!!!!!!DD!!RR!!AA!!FF!!TT!!!!!!!!!!DD!!RR!!AA!!FF!!TT!!!!!!!!!!DD!!RR!!AA!!FF!!TT 12:59:24 ais523, damn 12:59:31 ehird, that made no sense 12:59:42 ^echochohoo !!!DRAFT!!! 12:59:46 ^show 12:59:47 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp 12:59:47 DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT 12:59:51 ah, it was deleted 12:59:57 ^echochohoo? 12:59:59 I think some of 'em were lost when someone crashed fungot this morning. 12:59:59 fizzie: hitler killed a lot of 12:59:59 what did that one do 13:00:19 AnMaster: said something, then said it again minus the first char, then again minus the first two chars, and so on 13:00:19 Given the input 12345, it outputted "123452345345455". 13:00:35 ais523, anyway I need to figure out the TODO marked bits, a good name for mutexes (latch is top one currently) 13:00:53 call them "fortunes" 13:01:02 not that it's anything appropriate, but it sounds nice and mysterious 13:01:13 So it would've outputted: !!!DRAFT!!!!!DRAFT!!!!DRAFT!!!DRAFT!!!RAFT!!!AFT!!!FT!!!T!!!!!!!!! 13:01:16 I would prefer that it make some kind of sense 13:01:26 AnMaster: wrong channel 13:01:38 ais523, no more like a extended metaphor 13:01:57 if you want memes to make sense, get out of #esoteric 13:01:57 latches? just call them unsafe flip-flops 13:02:05 oklopol, heh 13:02:18 oklopol, the logic was: mutexes -> locks -> latches 13:02:30 yes, and i continued one level more 13:02:38 a latch would have the operations latch/unlatch/inspect 13:02:39 You could use I and O (as in flIp and flOp) as the operations; no-one would ever remember which one was which. 13:02:42 inspect is like try-lock 13:03:06 fizzie, heh, but what about the try-lock one? 13:03:11 AnMaster: U, as in flUb. 13:03:17 Flip, flop, flub. 13:03:20 fizzie, hm interesting 13:04:00 Maybe a bit silly. I'm trying to think of something completely surprising but with real-life mutual-exclusion semantics. Not having too much luck yet. 13:04:09 fizzie, same 13:06:34 * AnMaster considers "a bouncer" 13:06:46 so 13:06:48 i'm bored 13:06:52 deploy, fire, ask to be allowed to enter? 13:06:55 err no 13:06:55 hmm... the concept of bouncers seems to be an antipattern, actually 13:06:59 too far fetched 13:07:08 presumably IRC channels have join and quit messages for a reason 13:07:18 ais523, well yeah? 13:07:20 i don't thiink he's talking about an irc bouncer 13:07:22 and bouncers exist to stop them ending up in the channel 13:07:23 ah, ok 13:07:25 and indeed not 13:07:51 ais523, as one outside a restaurant(sp?) 13:08:01 think that is the English word for them? 13:08:01 Like this: "Critical sections in the code can be done by copyRighting a particular number; when you have done that, no other thread may copyRight the same number, until you explicitly copyLeft the number first." 13:08:12 AnMaster: yes 13:08:16 fizzie, that may work heh 13:08:30 more often pubs and nightclubs than restaurants, though 13:08:39 fizzie, and what about try-lock operation? 13:08:48 ais523, well yeah 13:09:55 fizzie, "send a letter asking for permission to use"? 13:09:57 Thinking. "You can also simply File for copyright with the F instruction; unlike the copyRight instruction, filing for copyright won't block your thread, but you only get the copyRight for the desired number if it was free." 13:10:11 ah 13:10:14 that could work too 13:10:16 better 13:10:30 fizzie, :) 13:10:52 except what are the implications for FOSS in this? 13:10:58 ;P 13:11:35 oh and using the number in other contexts is obviously fair use. 13:12:11 (such as in unrelated calculations) 13:12:23 Yes, the concept of copyRight in your language would be pretty limited; the only thing it would prevent is the copyRighting of the same number by someone else. 13:12:37 that's not copyright, that's trademarks 13:12:37 fizzie, yes.. hm 13:12:40 ah 13:13:04 ais523, hm 13:13:13 It's not exactly trademarks either, since there are at least some things you can't do with someone else's trademarked logo or thing. 13:13:41 the main thing you can't do with someone else's trademark is use it in a context unrelated to them 13:13:55 I can talk about Microsoft Windows without problems, referring to the operating system 13:14:00 (sco - microsoft) / novell * apple 13:14:01 ? 13:14:05 if I tried to make my own OS called Microsoft Windows, though, I'd be in trouble 13:14:10 AnMaster: 0, obviously 13:14:16 because that's what sco-microsoft evaluates to 13:14:24 ais523, ah right 13:14:29 Are you implying sco = microsoft? 13:14:42 fizzie: I'm implying that SCO would probably be nothing without Microsoft 13:14:44 at least nowadays 13:14:56 I'm interpreting the - as set subtraction, rather than numerical subtraction 13:15:00 which is not anticommutative 13:15:08 ais523, yet you could sell windows? 13:15:12 made of glass 13:15:20 AnMaster: it depends on the scope of the trademark 13:15:27 there's a huge court case going on about this at the moment 13:15:35 between Apple the record company and Apple the computer company 13:15:43 ah 13:15:52 the record company claim the computer company started to breach their trademark when they released the iPod 13:16:07 being music-related, you see 13:16:21 ais523, then they did it when you included speakers in the computers too 13:16:27 logically 13:16:42 well, yes trademark law is a mess 13:16:49 as far as I know that court case is still ongoing 13:17:02 There's been quite a lot of Apple Corps vs. Apple Computer trademark disputes. 13:17:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v._Apple_Computer 13:17:18 Wikipedia "Apple Corps v. Apple Computer" lists six. 13:17:42 Okay, six sections, anyway. 13:17:44 hmm... it seems they settled eventually 13:17:52 (in the 2007 one, which is the one I was thinking about) 13:18:02 no idea who would have won if they hadn't 13:18:55 Still, you'll have to worry about a language where you can trademark small integers... well, except that in this language the scope of the trademarks would prevent people (well, threads) _only_ from trademarking the same numbers, not from using them any way they wish. 13:19:00 stupid thing to name it the same 13:19:23 fizzie, yep so I'll not use that terminology 13:20:13 maybe "booking out", as in a library? 13:20:24 ais523, hm? 13:20:38 you can book out things, and you give them back later 13:20:45 you can't book something out if someone else has booked it out 13:20:56 normally, though, when you book something out you say how long you're going to need it for 13:21:01 "booked out" would mean? 13:21:09 Possession of a physical object is one thing that's naturally mutually exclusive, yes. 13:21:10 I thought it was "lend/return" 13:21:11 AnMaster: you sign a piece of paper to say that you have it 13:21:15 yes, that works too 13:21:44 ais523, also you can normally be put on a queue for the book, which kind of doesn't work here since the queue order is non-deterministic 13:21:53 at least that is how erlang currently implements waiting for locks 13:22:06 It's just a bit strange library, that's all. :p 13:22:13 ok 13:22:25 fizzie, and the try lock would be checking if a book is in? 13:22:34 heh yes, a reservation 13:22:48 or one of those library enquiry computer things 13:23:34 ais523, try lock wouldn't be like reservation really? Since it would reflect instead of block if the book/lock was lended/held 13:23:47 * AnMaster considers 13:23:56 still it may kind of work I guess 13:24:01 yes 13:24:11 would "lended" be correct? 13:24:20 aspell doesn't think so 13:24:36 Loaned. 13:24:51 so the operations are: loan/return/??? 13:24:58 or? 13:25:11 loan, return, check status 13:25:31 ais523, C and S are in use and hard to change. hm 13:25:42 K? T? 13:25:46 both seem to fit well there 13:25:51 yep 13:25:51 Wiktionary says that "loan" as a verb is ungrammatical outside the US: "to loan: (US) To lend. This usage is confined to the US (or perhaps parts thereof) and elsewhere is ungrammatical (loan being the noun, and lend the verb)." 13:25:57 they work fine 13:26:23 so T reflects if the book is loaned? 13:26:31 sounds like wrong grammar to me 13:26:35 s/wrong/bad/ 13:26:40 But the past tense for "to lend" is "lent", not "lended", apparently. 13:26:54 yes, it is 13:26:57 English is weird 13:27:12 and "on loan" is the phrase you're looking for 13:27:16 not that that makes any sense either 13:27:25 heh 13:27:33 ais523, and the opposite of that? 13:27:44 as in is in library 13:27:45 the libraries I use call it "available" 13:27:50 ok 13:28:29 and the number is obviously the extended ISBN (any number, not just well formed isbn) 13:28:53 Heh. "I called my library and tried to borrow the number 4, but unfortunately that number was already on loan." 13:29:28 Actually isn't "borrow" the correct verb for the receiving end? 13:29:34 hm 13:29:39 hmm... yes, it is 13:29:45 so borrow/return/try to borrow? 13:29:51 the library loans 13:29:54 The library is lending the book to you; you are borrowing the book from the library. 13:29:59 whereas the person borrows 13:30:08 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:30:10 Finnish just uses the same word "lainata" for both. 13:30:12 and do you return a book? 13:30:19 or is that the wrong word 13:30:44 yes, you return it 13:30:59 either that or pay lots of fines 13:32:00 If you say you lost the book, and apologize a lot, you might just need to pay the price of the book; that's one way people use to "buy" out-of-print books. 13:32:11 "don't try to acquire a mutex you already hold" 13:32:15 that would end up as 13:32:26 "don't try to borrow a book you already ????" 13:32:37 "Don't try to borrow a book you already have. This would confuse the librarian." 13:32:43 :D 13:32:57 Or "possibly confuse", since it's not clear what happens. 13:33:04 indeed 13:33:09 now, I so want to implement mutexes using ar 13:33:14 but I don't know if it's thread-safe 13:33:27 using ar? 13:33:30 eh why? 13:33:50 library analogy 13:33:52 no better reason than that 13:34:20 It's a funny library, though; you can't make a reservation (you can just wait for someone to return the book, but then it's pure luck who gets it, the one who was waiting first has no special privilege) and there's no time limit for loans. 13:35:39 a time limit might actually be a useful protection against dropped mutexes 13:35:41 fizzie, indeed 13:36:00 ais523: And then you'd need to pay with some clock cycles if you return your book all dirty. 13:36:13 err, I couldn't implement that 13:36:17 ;P 13:36:30 fizzie: nah, the OS would just force you to be a bit nicer 13:36:37 AUGH 13:37:08 Heh. "We're not scheduling you as often as we used to, since you got burger sauce all over number 4 when you last borrowed it." 13:39:21 oh another thing, the library have every possible book 13:39:30 Hilbert's library or something 13:43:49 ais523, fizzie ^ 13:43:59 yes, I saw that 13:44:15 very much so considering efunge have bignum cells 13:48:02 ais523, fizzie: http://rafb.net/p/zTufIM86.html 13:48:27 ais523, also please point out stuff that are language mistakes 13:48:28 and such 13:49:43 B description says "every use of L". 13:49:52 oops 13:50:17 I'll look more closely later (or maybe you have another draft at that point already), must go buy food and stuff. 13:50:53 AnMaster: you should so define the interaction with TRDS 13:50:58 leaving it undefined is a cop-out 13:51:02 anyway, I have to go to lectures now 13:51:06 ais523, blergh 13:51:08 see you all in about 2 hours 20 mins or so 13:51:12 hm 13:51:17 blergh about TRDS 13:51:30 oh well I know 13:51:56 "Using TRDS and ATHR in combination shall cause demons to fly out of the Funge programmer's nose 13:53:02 actually I think WIND wouldn't have issues 13:53:06 so no need to list it 13:53:42 "Using TRDS and ATHR in combination shall cause implementation-defined demons to fly out of the Funge programmer's nose." 13:53:43 there 13:54:51 that allows for someone to actually do something sensible if they want (define the demons to be none, and work on other bits) 13:55:15 AnMaster: TRDS and ATHR together sounds awesome 13:55:19 why would you be so hostile >:( 13:55:43 ehird, since TRDS is too badly speced to be sure how it would work in combination 13:56:00 and because I don't want a headache 13:56:01 AnMaster: it would be amazing 13:56:16 ehird, feel free to work out a sensible way for how they interact then, I may even use it 13:56:33 AnMaster: will you implement it 13:56:38 ehird, TRDS? No 13:56:46 ATHR? Yes in efunge, not in cfunge 13:56:51 TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS 13:56:59 the people have spoken 13:57:01 and they want TRDS 13:57:48 ehird, so you want to maintain it as a patch set against cfunge or efugne? 13:57:53 efunge* 13:58:01 no, the people want you to implement trds 13:58:31 you may want it, it won't happen 13:58:51 but since both are open source, feel free to do it yourself 13:59:14 it would imply forking 13:59:26 i want you to implement trds too 13:59:32 see 13:59:34 that's two people 13:59:37 200% of your user base 13:59:51 :D 13:59:54 ehird, neither of you use cfunge or efunge 14:00:02 AnMaster: no, but only 1 person uses cfunge 14:00:08 therefore two people are 200% of your userbase 14:00:12 also 0 people use efunge 14:00:31 ehird, actually ais523 use it, I use it, and I know someone else who do so. + fizzie use it sometimes 14:00:47 ehird, and yes, efunge haven't had a release yet 14:00:56 so what did you expect 14:01:01 *hasn't. 14:01:08 hasn't* indeed 14:01:29 ehird, it still lacks many features, such as i and o 14:02:08 i might use cfunge if i used befunge 14:02:23 wb ais523 14:02:27 oklopol, I still won't implement TRDS :P 14:02:49 oklopol, do you actually know how messy TRDS is? 14:02:51 http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcfunge2_manual.html#TRDS 14:02:57 trds is amazing 14:02:59 AnMaster: i've read that 14:03:20 well, I'm in my lecture now 14:03:20 and it's making no sense 14:03:20 so although I can't really concentrate on the conversation here 14:03:20 it makes more sense than trying to understand the lecture 14:03:33 what is it about 14:03:45 according to the syllabus it's about management 14:03:49 ugh 14:03:49 ais523: 14:03:50 TRDS 14:03:51 ---- 14:03:51 Using TRDS and ATHR in combination shall cause implementation-defined demons to 14:03:51 fly out of the Funge programmer's nose. 14:03:51 sounds awful 14:03:59 * AnMaster agrees with oklopol 14:04:13 it's actually a lecturer spending several hours talking about "customers" 14:04:20 ais523, ouch 14:04:23 someone just complained that that was marketing 14:04:28 and the lecturer asked what marketing was 14:04:33 ... 14:04:36 seriously? 14:04:37 this is going to be a long 11 weeks... 14:04:40 ehird: I think so 14:04:41 "what's marketing?" 14:04:43 did he say that? 14:04:47 yes, he did 14:04:52 i cannot believe that 14:04:56 i knew what marketing meant when i was 5. 14:04:59 ehird, I hope he forgot ~ or something... 14:05:00 but I'm not sure if it was rhetorical or not 14:05:18 yeah i was thinking "rhetorical" 14:05:23 either way thats a shitty rhetorical question 14:05:34 ais523, anyway my point was... if you want sensible TRDS/ATHR interaction then you got to define it, since I can't figure that out. 14:05:51 "How would you create Value Add thorugh a Internal Customer audit on yourself ?" 14:06:03 hehe i read that as "Intercal" 14:06:07 ais523: sounds like scientology 14:06:08 :D 14:06:09 (literal from the notes I've just been given, except the typo in through is mine, the other typos were the lecturer's though) 14:06:24 ask him how his thetans are doing 14:06:39 ok, this one's even more Scientologic: 14:06:41 managers abuse language :( 14:06:50 death to them all 14:07:11 "No Cynicism. Creativity, dreams, imagination Fantatical attention to consistency and detail Preservation and control of the xxxxx magic." 14:07:17 .. 14:07:20 ok, and I didn't typo in that, the typos are the lecturer's again 14:07:28 and the xxxxx makes no sense in that context 14:07:32 i am serious, that looks exactly like one of those sekrit scientology journal things i pirated 14:07:38 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 14:07:48 A friend-of-a-friend here got a scientology anti-psychiatry pamphlet. I didn't know they were doing that sort of thing in Finland. 14:07:49 ais523: what university were you at again 14:07:58 Birmingham University 14:08:04 but really, all management courses are like this 14:08:11 fizzie: they do that thing -everywhere- 14:08:20 ais523, horrible 14:08:20 and the IEEE insists that engineering courses are 1/12 management courses, I have no idea why 14:08:28 fuck the IEEE. 14:08:29 :| 14:08:32 stupid closed standard bodies 14:08:42 the management lecturer last year was actually quite good though, he tought me accounting and company law 14:08:46 so more business than management 14:08:54 Yes, but I get regular religious nonsense reasonably often, but never scientology stuff. It's strange. 14:09:45 wow, I just realised that I have enough accumulated pass marks that I can fail this module and still get a first, in theory 14:09:55 not that I really want to have to do that, but it's nice to have a safety valve 14:11:24 ais523, still, if you think TRDS + ATHR should be well defined you better write that section. 14:12:28 what's athr 14:12:38 oklopol, async threads for Funge 14:13:26 http://rafb.net/p/bQS3gx65.html 14:13:28 current revision 14:13:31 fizzie, ais523 ^ 14:19:17 wb ais523 14:19:33 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/bQS3gx65.html 14:19:52 it seems this lecture theatre has a dodgy router 14:21:15 hmm... the lecturer's explained that sentence with the xxxxx in 14:21:23 apparently we were supposed to guess that xxxxx=Disney 14:21:30 hmm... the sentence still doesn't make much sense though 14:22:40 checking for ar... no 14:22:40 checking for i686-pc-linux-gnu-ar... no 14:22:40 checking for ar... ar 14:22:44 that looks a bit odd 14:22:54 well, yes, it does 14:23:00 did it come up with the right answer, though? 14:23:01 ais523, it was from gcc configure 14:23:11 ah, that would explain it 14:23:14 ais523, oh? 14:23:18 checking for ld... no 14:23:18 checking for i686-pc-linux-gnu-ld... no 14:23:18 checking for ld... ld 14:23:20 gcc configure does the same sort of stupid tricks as ick configure 14:23:20 said that below 14:23:25 that's why I thought it was the same thing to start with 14:23:29 ais523, well I'm building an llvm gcc 14:23:31 except gcc configure is mostly hand-coded 14:23:32 a* 14:23:49 whereas ick's uses macros and some stupid semi-recursion stuff 14:24:07 anyway it said: 14:24:09 checking for i686-pc-linux-gnu-ld... no 14:24:09 checking for ld... ld 14:24:12 just 20 lines above 14:24:14 heh 14:24:23 AnMaster: what are your build, host and target for that build? 14:24:37 anmaster@phoenix ~/llvm/gcc-build $ ../llvm-gcc/configure --prefix=/home/anmaster/local/llvm --program-prefix=llvm- --enable-llvm=/home/anmaster/local/llvm --with-arch=pentium3 --with-tune=pentium3 --disable-libgcj --enable-libmudflap --enable-nls --enable-__cxa_atexit --disable-multilib --enable-clocale=gnu --enable-languages=c,c++ 14:24:39 gcc has to check all 3 of them 14:24:52 ick cares about build and host, but target you do using CC at runtime 14:25:13 ais523, well see the command line 14:25:18 so I guess native build 14:25:22 but with llvm stuff 14:25:46 unfortunately the build/host/target are probably hardcoded there 14:25:51 or at least one of them is and probably 2 14:26:20 AnMaster: typo in F: singal should be signal 14:26:26 although singal is a nice word too 14:26:32 despite not meaning anything 14:26:37 heh aspell accepted it 14:26:50 hmm... maybe it means something I don't know, then 14:27:04 "Singal (Hangeul: 신갈) is an area of Yongin, in Gyeonggi Province, South Korea. It is near two major expressways and a large reservoir by the ..." 14:27:11 also 14:27:12 first comma in B should probably be a semicolon 14:27:12 continual, everlasting, continuous 14:27:12 en.wiktionary.org/wiki/singal 14:27:18 ah, ok 14:27:35 "Old English", though. 14:27:38 a semicolon, right 14:27:51 WordNet doesn't know singal, but it's not that comprehensive anyway. 14:28:11 well I didn't know it and I'm a native speaker 14:28:33 You're not a native speaker of Old English, obviously. 14:28:43 yes, obviously 14:29:11 also, R looks self-contradictory 14:29:15 you define an error condition 14:29:19 but then state "never reflects" 14:30:17 in S, the first instance of "threads" should be "thread", and "it's" should be "its" 14:30:18 ais523, *looks* 14:30:33 ais523, ok you are right about R 14:30:42 and about S 14:31:30 "Reflects on returning a book you don't have. Otherwise never reflects." 14:31:33 what about that? 14:31:39 ais523, bbiab food 14:31:41 yes, looks good 14:33:20 Note that pthread_mutex_unlock won't error out on unlocking someone else's mutex unless you use an error-checking (instead of a fast/recursive mutex) mutex. Of course you can define it, and it's arguably better that way. 14:33:53 well, I suppose using fast mutexes is more C-like 14:34:08 don't worry about error conditions, just make sure the prorgammer never lets errors happen 14:34:32 slows down the programmer but speeds up the program, unless you have a /very/ good optimiser 14:35:19 Yes, it's just that B is defined in the "easy to implement even without error-checking mutexes" way, so for consistency's sake... 14:35:50 I don't think people write performance-critical Funge-98 code that much, though. 14:36:30 AnMaster: "implementation defined and does not need to be the same on every run, or even for every use of B during a run" can be abbreviated to "unspecified" if you're using C-standard terminology 14:37:05 although the original is possibly clearer 14:38:17 in the notes section, "The library have all books" should be "The library has all books" 14:41:41 argh argh argh 14:41:50 the lecturer is trying to teach us about S.M.A.R.T. 14:42:09 which is one of the things that everyone most hated about targets and such in my secondary school 14:42:14 not that the whole system made any sense 14:42:26 ehird: did they teach you that too, or did you escape from it? 14:42:32 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 14:42:42 ais523: hm what where 14:42:44 i haven't been paying attention 14:43:01 ehird: did they try to teach you about SMART targets in secondary school? 14:43:11 if they did i do not recall 14:44:17 well, I suppose using fast mutexes is more C-like <-- ? 14:44:24 ah 14:44:43 so it should be undefined instead? 14:45:45 ais523, S.M.A.R.T.? As in harddisks? 14:48:54 * Ping reply from ais523: 0.70 second(s) 14:48:54 well 14:48:58 I guess he is just busy then 14:49:01 AnMaster: no 14:49:05 it's a management acronym 14:49:09 ehird: you're lucky 14:49:24 ais523: summary? 14:49:36 Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic, Time-related 14:49:58 ugh 14:49:59 it's the managementese for what are good properties for targets to have 14:50:10 time-related? 14:50:18 except it leads to lots of arguments, such as what is the difference between achieveable and realistic anyway 14:50:33 AnMaster: what it means in practice is that the targets you set have to have time limits 14:50:41 but that isn't what time-related actually means 14:50:48 ais523, "with deadline"? 14:50:57 what is wrong with that 14:50:58 ais523: you know what i hate? I hate internet-friends who take programming courses and ask me things. "can you decompile xml files" / "what" / "is it possible." "to decompile." "compiled xml files." 14:50:59 AnMaster: that's the in-practice meaning, yes 14:51:22 ehird, compiled xml files make no sense... 14:51:33 AnMaster: congratulations, you got what i was saying 14:51:41 i think he means binary xml file thingies 14:51:55 ah yes, that reminds me of another weirdness about VHDL 14:52:04 once you've finally translated it into an idiomatic form, and compiled it 14:52:14 it's usual to decompile the output and interpret it to check that it still works 14:52:21 binary xml files? You mean like encoded as ascii code points in stored in a binary file? 14:52:25 like... text files? 14:52:42 no 14:52:44 there's such a thing 14:52:49 .xml.gz 14:52:56 would be the obvious solution 14:52:57 err that is just gunzip 14:53:04 to uncompress 14:53:12 hmm... I wonder if there is an official binary serialisation of XML? 14:53:21 yes, i think so 14:53:25 that wouldn't surprise me, even though it ought ot 14:53:26 ais523, also for that VHDL issue it sounds like the compilers are horribly buggy 14:53:26 *to 14:53:36 AnMaster: no, the issue is that RL is horribly buggy 14:53:52 once you've compiled into hardware, it works out how long all the wires are and so on 14:54:05 as for "binary serialisation of XML", that makes no sense.. 14:54:06 and the decompiled version allows for the behaviour of the wires and such 14:54:27 ais523, ah ok 14:54:28 so for instance if two things happen at the same time in your source, in practice they'll normally happen at slightly different times in RL 14:54:33 and the decompiled version will get that right 14:55:34 hmm... your ATHR needs a "security considerations" section 14:55:38 just because RFCs always have those 14:56:14 wow, I just had an idea 14:56:22 I think I might know how to get Feather to work... 14:56:47 ais523, hm, I considered "ATHR and the impacts on modern society" section with the text "Not a lot." or something like that... 14:57:08 although it's impossible to compare functions, it is possible to see if one function contains a copy of another 14:57:20 and in a lang like Unlambda, the only way to find out what a function does is to run it 14:57:36 and functions are generally modified by putting wrappers around them, that's the only thing you can do really 14:58:05 ais523, also what would i put in security considerations? "Doesn't allow any additional external IO"? 14:58:17 hmm... possibility for fork-bombs, maybe 14:58:27 because I think ATHR would be safe according to cfunge's sandbox mode requirements 14:58:37 could you fork-bomb with it? 14:58:43 ais523: what does it help if you know a function contains another? 14:58:46 ais523, well thread bomb I guess... 14:58:55 oklopol: the problem is to tell if two things are effectively the same 14:59:01 yes 14:59:12 ais523, also I saw a new horrible fingerprint in rc/funge, "FORK" 14:59:13 the question is "what in the new universe corresponds to X in the old universe" after a retroactive modification 14:59:15 http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcfunge2_manual.html#FORK 14:59:32 and it is impossible to say what that actually does 14:59:42 and the answer is "whatever has the same call tree of absolute function addresses, possibly with extra elements inserted" 15:00:05 ais523: sorry, i confused feather with your other unimplementable language 15:00:11 ah, Proud? 15:00:12 the name of which i forgot again 15:00:13 yes 15:00:16 oklopol, feather is implementable isn't it? 15:00:20 Feather is at least in theory implementable, I think 15:00:26 just I haven't figured out how yet 15:00:31 I want to implement it to prove it's possible 15:00:34 and then so I can program in it 15:00:58 proud is implementable too, just not well, it's a fuzzy issue 15:01:04 ais523, should I attribute you with your nick or real name? 15:01:07 in thanks section 15:01:22 I don't mind, "Alex Smith" would probably fit in best there given the other names 15:01:55 but what about the wikipedia stalker-murderers 15:02:47 well, my nick isn't on there, is it? 15:02:49 ais523, anyway if implemented in erlang you effectively have no issue with fork bombs, erlang threads are very green. I think a newly created thread uses something like around 200-300 machine words of memory 15:02:58 including the default stack 15:03:36 AnMaster: that just means that the fork bomb can become really big before you notice it 15:04:09 ais523, well anyone sane would have proper ulimits set up 15:04:35 ais523: can you elaborate on why it helps that we can see whether a function contains another? 15:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | heh. 15:08:28 oklopol: well, basically, suppose you retroactively modify the program 15:08:32 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:08:34 ais523, btw how would ick interact with ATHR ;) 15:08:36 the program will then rerun up to the point where you changed it 15:08:41 not that I plan to implement it in cfunge 15:08:50 AnMaster: if there was more than one thread at the end of any command, it would go crazy 15:09:02 ais523, ah yes right 15:09:16 ais523, anyway that leaves the TRDS issue. 15:09:21 oklopol: anyway, you need to avoid timeloops 15:09:24 which I delegate to you ais523 15:09:31 hmm... /me imagines ick + TRDS 15:09:40 ais523, TRDS + ATHR I meant 15:09:59 actually, ick + TRDS aren't fundamentally incompatible, but I can't figure out what the result would be 15:10:23 ais523, and for ATHR and TRDS? 15:10:26 oklopol: so, once you reach the command that did the retroactive modification, it shouldn't retroactively modify the second time round 15:10:36 -!- slereah has joined. 15:10:48 AnMaster: I was joking, really, although I suspect the interaction would be the same as t + TRDS (i.e. only Deewiant understands it) 15:11:12 ais523, I suspect it would be even messier 15:11:17 oklopol: the problem is: determine when you reach that command, given that the program has changed in the meantime 15:11:40 and I've come to the answer by considering what the likely modifications are 15:11:55 I think I'll define a set of "sane" retroactive modifications that the standard library can cope with 15:12:21 insane retroactive modifications are allowed to, but if you do them it's your responsibility to make sure the program doesn't timeloop or do other crazy pimetaradoxical things 15:12:31 ais523, make each command have an GUID that never changes during a run? 15:12:31 *too 15:12:42 I thought of that too, but it doesn't help 15:12:51 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:12:53 because how do you tell it's the same command if the source changes, or the syntax of the lang changes 15:12:57 and lambdas break it really badly 15:13:06 ah right 15:13:53 the problem is to come up with something GUID-like that can cope with changes in the nature of the language 15:14:09 and looking for call stacks with elements inserted seems to be the solution 15:14:17 incidentally, the same problem comes up in handling I/O 15:14:45 basically, the way I think Feather will do it is that input and output are tagged with their /purpose/ 15:14:50 by the programmer 15:14:54 and purposes are meant to be stable 15:14:56 ais523, could you make feather become befunge? 15:15:02 with these modifications 15:15:03 yes, I think so 15:15:12 bootstrapping might be hard though 15:15:21 as at some point the program would need to be a Feather/Befunge polyglot 15:15:25 i'll read, was watching a finnish racist boast about getting rid of foreigners on youtube 15:15:30 ais523, care to give a short example program to show what the syntax looks like? 15:15:36 for original feather 15:15:43 * oklopol likes watching nutjobs preach 15:15:55 well, modulo the fact that I haven't come up with any examples yet, and the syntax keeps changing every now and then as I work out what the language features 15:16:09 but after you've imported the standard library, it would be something like this: 15:17:21 ^stdlib outputwrapper #sayhello [^stdlib output] [^stdlib stdout] "Hello, world!" 15:17:31 that's not a very typical example though 15:17:35 ok 15:17:49 ais523, so how would you change the syntax? What does that bit look like? 15:17:53 also, the # isn't strictly necessary, as curried functions don't have a sayhello message 15:18:33 hmm... as a trivial example, I'll consider a modification to the language which makes a % at the start of the program comment out the entire program 15:19:07 this could take a while to write, wait a while... 15:19:47 at some point, i considered a string from a marker to the end of the program for oklotalk 15:19:57 so you wouldn't need to worry at all about the contents of the string 15:20:16 and it'd be used by making an interpreter in the beginning of the program, then running the string 15:20:19 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has quit (No route to host). 15:20:27 -!- omniscient_idiot has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:21:27 oklotalk has lots of parsing features (planned that is), so it would be ideal for that sorta thing 15:22:55 ^parser parse be [[old|[str|str head = '%' if [x|] old]] [^parser parse]] 15:23:15 and that be could be become to make the change apply from now on, rather than retroactively 15:23:45 heh 15:23:49 fun 15:24:01 also, most of the identifiers will probably end up different 15:24:05 and may end up in different places too 15:24:15 ais523, how does that match work 15:24:16 ? 15:24:31 and that's assuming that auto-unboxing and such have already been implemented, they'll be in the standard library though 15:24:44 AnMaster: well, parse takes a string as input and returns a function as output 15:24:54 ok 15:25:07 so the new parser is defined in terms of the old one 15:25:11 hm 15:25:27 it compares [str head] (the square brackets are like parens) with '%' 15:25:31 by telling it to compare itself with '%' 15:25:40 that returns a boolean object 15:25:57 hm 15:25:57 its if method returns its first arg if it's true or its second arg if it's false 15:26:04 ais523, could feather become any other language? 15:26:08 one of those is a NOP whatever its argument 15:26:11 and the other is the old parser 15:26:17 AnMaster: I think so 15:26:25 it would need to get input from somewhere, though 15:26:29 as in, the actual program to run 15:26:40 ais523, so what if you made it C, how would it access mmap() and such? 15:26:41 unless you wrote the program as a Feather/Befunge polyglot from the start, which could be fun 15:26:52 AnMaster: you'd have to implement them in Feather 15:27:02 ais523, the file system too? 15:27:11 I/O and standard library and such couldn't be in part of the becomed language unless they were in Feather's stdlib to start with 15:27:14 file I/O probably would be though 15:27:20 ah 15:28:09 ais523, anyway what does the ^ mean? 15:28:12 in your examples 15:28:18 AnMaster: it refers to "this object" 15:28:21 like this in C++ 15:28:32 there are certain properties like stdlib that every object has 15:28:37 Hahahaha, you've inversed F# ;) 15:28:39 so you can access them from anywhere 15:28:42 ais523, if you could have that on the first line as first char, the befunge/feather polygot would be easy 15:28:49 well, yes 15:28:57 more to the point, it's trivial to get a [ on first line as first char 15:29:05 and that also would make Befunge/Feather an easy polyglot 15:29:09 ais523, yep 15:29:18 anyway, I think ^ is the right character 15:29:26 how would it handle the befunge program overwriting parts of the feather code? 15:29:28 but what I actually wanted is whatever Smalltalk uses in that sort of context 15:29:41 AnMaster: it wouldn't care, at the time the Befunge program ran the Feather code would no longer exist 15:29:44 ah 15:29:48 except as the Befunge interp 15:30:08 if Feather modified itself into Befunge itself, you couldn't modify it back as Befunge has no command to retroactively change itself into Feather 15:30:22 although you could modify it into a Befunge-like lang that could change back, maybe have it in a fingerprint... 15:30:38 ais523, it could have that as a fingerprint or the same way that ick uses the middot 15:30:42 however, modifying Feather into Befunge definitely qualifies as an insane change 15:31:00 ais523, and yeah. What about changing it into scheme? 15:31:02 so if you want stdlib to work after that, you're on your own 15:31:21 likewise for most langs 15:31:35 the rule for a sane Feather parser change is that in addition to the other requirements to be sane, it has to be backwards-compatible 15:31:52 i.e. all legal programs under the old parser do the same thing, or the same thing and additional things, under the new parser 15:32:00 ais523, so what about become instead of be? 15:32:01 for instance, modifying the lang to make it run under a debugger is sane 15:32:05 AnMaster: become is always sane 15:32:07 didn't you say that worked around the issue 15:32:20 become on the parser would have no effect until you tried to parse something, though 15:32:30 as at that point you've already parsed your original program 15:32:44 whereas be will modify the parser before it parsed your original program, that's what makes it a lot less sane 15:35:46 ah 15:36:01 ais523, what about one affecting every line of come from after this line? 15:36:17 "come from" is a bit hard to define in a functional lang 15:36:50 ais523, code* 15:36:52 not come* 15:37:10 typoed 15:38:11 AnMaster: the entire program is parsed first then run 15:38:35 but it could be done 15:38:45 you'd use be, but cause the parser to act the same way for earlier code 15:38:46 ais523, that could he the sane way to protect syslib? 15:38:50 ofc you have to define "earlier" somehow 15:38:54 and yes, that would be sane 15:39:15 define "earlier" as before some special marker 15:39:29 "before"? 15:39:33 the code is only linear in source form 15:39:38 once it's a function, before has less of a meaning 15:39:43 I'm sure it would be possible, though 15:40:04 annotate all functions with the position in the source code they were generated from, for instance 15:40:10 the code is only linear in source form 15:40:15 then what about making it into cat? 15:41:36 well, cat would be trivial 15:41:54 hmm... you could do a Feather quine by causing the parser to output its input rather than parsing it, retroactively 15:44:39 ais523, then the source needs to be in linear form doesn't it? 15:44:47 well, yes 15:44:50 you know what the source code is 15:44:54 but it's like any other compiled lang 15:44:58 you have the source, and the executable 15:45:10 in Feather, though, the executable can modify the source and it changes accordingly, whilst still running 15:45:13 hotpatching ftw! 15:45:41 hmm... lazy parsing might be useful in Feather, not necessary, but nice 15:45:48 maybe I'll make stdlib retroactively add it 15:46:18 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 15:47:06 ais523, you could add it from within feather anyway ;P 15:47:12 yes 15:47:21 this is simply a discussion about what would be useful in the stdlib 15:47:32 well, what changes the stdlib makes at the start of any program 15:47:47 the nature of any Feather interp is that it has to be written entirely in Feather 15:47:56 the nature of RL is that they have to be written in something else to start it off 15:48:18 so you start off with two versions of the same interp, one in Feather, one in some other lang, which both do exactly the same thing 15:49:02 that seems like a better bet than hoping a Feather interp will spontaneously come into existence, great as that would be 15:49:15 once Feather is running, it's under the impression that there are an infinite number of layers of Feather interps under it 15:49:29 because if you ever go down far enough that you reach the bottom, you can retroactively add more underneath 15:50:04 however you can, of course, expose the mechanism for doing that so it doesn't fool if you want to 15:57:02 leaving for about 20 mins, going to a different Internet connection 15:58:26 ok 16:14:00 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:26:47 wb ais523 16:27:34 thanks 16:32:39 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:35:18 -!- Ilari has joined. 16:37:28 ais523, hm should I make TRDS interaction undefined or leave it as the demons bit? 16:37:42 consider I plan to let Mike Riley see this standard 16:37:42 just leave it as demons 16:38:01 every C programmer ought to know what that means anyway 16:38:05 yep 16:38:11 and it wouldn't be the first lang with a physically unimplementable spec 16:38:29 ais523, oh no, it is implementable 16:38:31 (HOMESPRING requires the interpreter to produce a temporal paradox upon encountering the character string . .) 16:38:37 "Using TRDS and ATHR in combination shall cause implementation-defined demons to 16:38:37 fly out of the Funge programmer's nose." 16:38:46 the key is "implementation-defined" demons 16:38:53 you could just define it to NULL 16:38:55 or such 16:39:01 is it an implementation-defined nose too? 16:39:16 ais523, no but that wouldn't be needed, would it? 16:39:34 the problem is to get null pointers out of the programmer's nose 16:39:40 just define those demons to "no demons" then? 16:39:42 that might not be trivial, they might not have a nose for instance 16:40:03 for (i=0; i < 0; i++) { release_demon(&nose); } 16:40:11 D: 16:40:21 Slereah_: why the big sad left-handed smiley? 16:40:26 ais523, any sane compiler would optimise that away 16:40:53 Because of so much demons 16:40:56 hmm... how many languages let you declare but not define a function if you never use it? 16:40:59 C does, and VHDL does 16:41:04 I wonder which others? 16:41:22 ais523, well that wouldn't help here 16:41:44 well, no 16:41:47 well, maybe 16:41:58 gcc would leave no references to release_demon in the object file 16:42:03 if you were optimising 16:42:14 so you wouldn't get the link fail that you normally get for referencing a non-existent function 16:42:27 ais523, the variable nose could be an issue 16:42:30 &nose would have to mean something, but I suppose nose could just be an extern variable... 16:42:33 I guess you have to have a static variable 16:42:37 and have 16:42:49 for (i=0; i < 0; i++) { release_demon_in_nose(); } 16:43:02 after all since that is all about side effects anyway 16:44:40 well, it can be a static variable in a non-existent function 16:46:06 yep 16:47:34 hm I read about solving sodoku using the debian package manager's dependency resolution stuff... But what about using make? 16:47:45 is that powerful enough? 16:47:49 is make TC, I wonder? 16:48:01 I'd be surprised if it was a lower computational class than dpkg 16:48:15 ais523, is dpkg tc? 16:48:34 I don't know, I don't see why it would be though 16:48:38 whereas TC make makes sense 16:48:56 also it is non-trivial to answer that for make. Since there are so many make dialects 16:49:15 pmake and gnu make are the most common ones probably 16:52:48 ais523, in ick, what is "arrgghh.o"? 16:52:59 it handles command line arguments for generated programs 16:53:06 deals with +wimpmode, +instapipe, and so on 16:53:16 why does arrrghh.c say: 16:53:18 * SYNOPSIS: ick_parseargs(argc,argv) 16:53:18 * FILE : ick_parseargs.c 16:53:26 in that case 16:53:48 ok, presumably it was called parseargs.c before it was renamed to have a funky ick-name 16:53:57 that must have been ages ago, probably I could find it in the changelog if I looked 16:54:07 no need 16:54:09 and the ick_ prefix is because I put ick_prefixes on everything 16:54:17 when implementing the FFI 16:54:19 to avoid collisions 16:54:34 ais523, the changelog? NEWS? 16:54:38 yes 16:54:48 that is, genuinely, a changelog 16:54:55 nothing about it in NEWS 16:55:01 the rename won't be there 16:55:07 but the implementation of +wimpmode will be 16:55:29 that must have been ages ago, probably I could find it in the changelog if I looked 16:55:33 hm 16:55:34 ah 16:55:42 not the file naming 16:55:45 right 17:18:24 -!- Mony has joined. 17:19:19 plop 17:20:50 why plop? 17:21:17 juste because 17:21:56 why not ? 17:32:43 indeed why not 17:53:52 ais523, well anyway I will begin messing with input buffering in efunge to make it compatible with ATHR. Implementing ATHR will take some time 17:54:01 since I don't have a lot of that currently 17:54:11 ah, you're planning to actually implement it? 17:54:43 ais523, yes of course 17:54:44 in efunge 17:54:47 not in cfunge 17:54:55 so don't worry about it messing up ick 17:55:12 ais523, I suspect doing it in C would be a pain anyway 17:55:35 ais523, didn't you think I would implement it?! 17:56:11 well, there are a lot of random lang ideas which are thrown around here and then not implemented 17:56:20 ais523, of course TRDS won't ever be supported 17:56:31 in my interpreters 17:56:39 AnMaster: not even if you write featherfunge some day? 17:56:42 it would probably be trivial in that 17:57:10 ais523, I consider that a very hypothetical question. 17:57:17 yes, exactly 17:57:21 1) There is no working Feather yet 17:57:24 that involves having a working Feather first 17:57:32 then you being motivated to write a Funge interp in it 17:57:38 2) I never said I would write a feather funge indeed 17:58:36 ais523, anyway are there any languages other than erlang where ATHR would be reasonably easy to implement? 17:58:46 Befunge, I think 17:58:57 ais523, "ATHR may not be implemented as synchronous by lazy programmers writing a 17:58:57 Funge-implementation. That is considered very bad style. ATHR should be truly 17:58:57 asynchronous." 17:59:07 VERY BAD STYLE 17:59:09 hmm... ok 17:59:11 the style police will kill you 17:59:15 at night 17:59:16 what about INTERCAL 17:59:30 ais523, does it have something async enough? 17:59:36 AnMaster: how about "my language DOES NOT SUPPORT truly asynchronous threads, shut up and let me implement it for compatibility" 17:59:37 it has synchronous multithreading in theory, but it's easier to treat it as asynch rather than trying to figure out how the synchrony works 17:59:55 also "truly asynchronous threads" are impossible on a single-core system. 18:00:07 ehird, well I was planning distributed 18:00:16 it has ONCE/AGAIN and ABSTAIN/REINSTATE as its atomic primitives 18:00:26 AnMaster: let people implement it however. 18:00:41 (actually all commands are atomic in the current implementation, but ONCE/AGAIN/ABSTAIN/REINSTATE are the only keywords for which atomicity matters) 18:00:50 ehird, Uf you feel offended you may have a better wording? I just want discourage it being implemented the same way as t by lazy programmers 18:01:01 AnMaster: it won't be... 18:01:03 s/Uf/If/ 18:01:05 because the whole purpose is not being t 18:01:08 so just remove the paragraph 18:01:12 plus, its very self-evident from reading it 18:01:15 ehird, well Deewiant seemed to suggest doing it that way 18:01:18 ehird: actually, I'd probably lazily implement it t-style 18:01:19 so... 18:01:22 if I just wanted to get something working 18:01:33 maybe I'd deliberately skip steps every now and then at random 18:01:40 to make it actually asynchronous 18:01:42 well then 18:01:44 let them do that 18:01:47 there's nothing wrong with that. 18:01:58 just like all my HQ9+ interps have an accumulator, even though there's no way to tell from inside the program that it's there 18:04:01 they should have a -O flag :) 18:04:42 Asztal: that should store the accumulator in a register, for faster access 18:06:24 and possibly interleave consecutuve 18:06:34 *consecutive +s 18:11:53 AnMaster: huh? when did I say that 18:12:16 Deewiant, in this channel 18:12:35 AnMaster: when, not where. 18:12:44 * AnMaster greps log 18:15:20 Deewiant, it was when discussing MVRS and ATHR 18:15:38 give me a quote or timestamp 18:15:52 okt 16 13:08:08 AnMaster: but we wanted the option of sync vs. async 18:16:05 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:16:07 yeah, that was about MVRS 18:16:17 Deewiant, while you didn't say it straight out, what you said seemed to imply you wanted sync ATHR 18:16:32 okt 16 13:03:36 right, but what would ATHRs containing MVRSs even be? 18:16:34 for example 18:16:34 no, that was wholly about MVRS 18:16:42 that latter was just me not understanding 18:16:50 Deewiant, them I'm sorry is if I misunderstood 18:17:02 fine 18:17:15 I'm sorry I was misunderstood :-P 18:17:57 Deewiant, anyway MVRS is too badly specced to be sure, So I'm going to contact Riley with the spec when I worked out the output bit and try to fix that 18:18:10 Deewiant, also did you see the last version where "mutex" have become "book"? 18:18:13 MVRS is much less than it was supposed to be 18:18:30 http://rafb.net/p/BETCqd29.html 18:18:32 is the current one 18:18:33 and no, but I didn't really read through the earlier ATHR specs in detail either :-P 18:18:59 Deewiant, anyway mutexes are now books in a library :P 18:19:15 sounds to me like you've had too much to do with INTERCAL 18:19:24 yes, it's a very INTERCAL-like analogy 18:19:35 ais523, I added the security considerations there 18:19:44 heh, great 18:19:47 I'll have a look at them 18:19:59 Deewiant, and what is wrong with that? 18:20:13 nothing really, just making an observation :-P 18:20:20 ok 18:20:50 Deewiant, "too much" often indicates "more than what is a good idea" implying something is wrong 18:21:06 well, having anything to do with INTERCAL is arguably a bad idea ;-) 18:21:11 any amount is too much to do with INTERCAL, probably 18:21:12 Deewiant: snap 18:26:14 hm? 18:26:49 AnMaster: we both said much the same thing, that was what the snap was about 18:26:55 ah 18:26:57 it's an idiom that comes from a children's game 18:27:04 people take turns revealing cards from the top of a deck 18:27:09 oh? 18:27:14 when two the same in a row are revealed, the first person to say "Snap!" wins 18:27:20 so it's all about reactions, really 18:27:34 there are also various rules about how you can reveal the cards, as an anti-cheating measure 18:27:46 (to prevent people looking at the cards before other people can see them) 18:30:26 ais523, ehird Deewiant, do you like the new top section better in http://rafb.net/p/18vBZT98.html 18:30:59 yes 18:31:02 it still says DRAFT 18:31:03 and the security consideration too 18:31:12 +!DRAFT!++!DRAFT!++!DRAFT!++!DRAFT!++!DRAFT!++!DRAFT!++!DRAFT!++!DRAFT!++!DRAFT!++!DRAFT!++!DRAFT!+ 18:31:13 ehird, of course, because it is still a draft 18:31:17 it isn't done yet 18:31:24 and we all know that 18:31:27 that is why there is a TODO comment in the IO section 18:31:34 who is Heikki Kallasjoki, btw? 18:31:35 we wouldn't take some random pastebin post as something we should go implement right now 18:31:38 ais523: fizzie 18:31:38 ais523, fizzie 18:31:39 it's hilariously over the top 18:32:01 ehird, I believe I gave my reasons for it yesterday 18:32:03 so... 18:32:07 AnMaster: not any good ones 18:32:09 please see that 18:32:14 AnMaster: what were the reasons again? 18:33:17 ais523, that if nothing else, working with befunge programmers have taught me that it is better to over-specify and try to be extra clear (not sure if that is the right English word)... 18:33:29 and why not? 18:33:33 Because someone will surely interpret anything you didn't state in a way you didn't intent 18:33:43 are Befunge programs generally sloppy and ambiguous? 18:33:45 *programmers 18:34:11 ais523, no, but considering all the disputes about what fingerprint specs, or even the funge-98 spec actually means... 18:34:21 thats because they're both written rubbishly 18:34:24 even for some cats eye fingerprints... 18:34:26 doesn't mean you should go so over the top 18:34:42 ehird, I believe the English idiom is "better safe than sorry" 18:34:48 yes, it is 18:34:57 also, OVERENGINEERING is FUN 18:35:07 no its not 18:35:08 ais523, well yeah but only on school assignments 18:35:12 not when AnMaster is being serious 18:35:12 :\ 18:35:31 ehird, You just fail at meta-meta-meta-humor :P 18:37:46 AnMaster: It'd help if it was funny 18:37:59 ehird: actually it's funnier because it's serious 18:38:07 and AnMaster: one too many metas I think, unless I'm missing something 18:38:08 i disagree totally 18:39:39 ais523, actually I think I may have forgot a meta 18:42:55 also you can have ATHR without having t. 18:43:02 obviously 18:59:24 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:00:49 please please don't let this become sort of channel in-joke 19:00:51 sucker! 19:01:06 also, DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT 19:01:39 -!- ais523 has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | This channel is a !! DRAFT !! DRAFT !! DRAFT !! DRAFT !!. 19:05:36 DROFT 19:05:53 this channel is daft, more like 19:06:02 You hurt my feelings 19:06:10 and has a lot of drift 19:06:28 drip 19:06:49 drop 19:06:51 droop 19:07:34 drambuie 19:07:45 drum 19:07:57 DRAFT 19:08:05 DRAT 19:08:08 * Slereah_ dodges the draft 19:08:31 * oerjan writes it up in case Slereah_ ever tries to run for president 19:09:17 THIS IS A MUDSLINGING CAMPAIGN DESIGNED TO SULLY MY GOOD NAME 19:09:23 I'M A HARD WORKING AMERICAN 19:09:31 MY FATHER WAS JOE SIXPACK 19:09:38 MY MOTHER WAS JOE THE PLUMBER 19:09:47 hahaha 19:10:15 * ais523 was amused at all the focus on Joe the Plumber, when he seems to be some sort of richish entrepreneur, not the sort of typical American at all 19:10:20 Deewiant, "BAD: i should have pushed (90, 16) as Vb", why is it so hard to output what it pushed instead? :/ 19:10:39 What of Joe Sixpack? 19:10:45 Is he a real hardworking American? 19:10:50 AnMaster: because doing that requires a lot more code and it's possible that it didn't even push anything 19:11:16 ah hm 19:13:26 Slereah_: a beer reporter, says google 19:13:39 Is this a hard working job? 19:13:48 possibly 19:14:56 depends how bad the beer is 19:15:16 but face it, there's a beer market out there 19:15:39 http://www.boxingdaily.co.uk/wp-content/img/notasixer.JPG 19:15:45 This is apparently Joe Sixpack 19:16:17 http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2007/11/27halloween.jpg 19:20:42 but...Canada 19:20:49 he either loves nomic 19:20:51 or HATES AMERICA 19:21:26 Can a man with such a moustache really hate America? 19:21:43 He also has arms that bear arms 19:22:59 * pikhq doges the draft by 4Fing out 19:23:26 {MaxX, MaxY} = load_binary(Binary, Fungespace, TrueX, TrueY, false, TrueX, undefined), 19:23:29 now that is crazy 19:23:39 4f? 19:23:53 Exempt from military service for medical reasons. 19:23:55 the two last parameters are only there because of i 19:24:09 Mental disability in my case, amusingly. 19:24:57 pikhq : How are you mentally disabled? 19:25:04 Autism. 19:25:05 Do you have... ASPERGERS? 19:25:09 Damn, so close! 19:25:46 If it weren't for that, I could feasibly pull off conscientous objector. 19:26:04 "conscientous objector"? 19:26:50 One who objects to military service for philosophical or religious reasons. 19:27:08 ah 19:27:26 You know, a coward 19:27:40 I'm a pacifist. 19:28:23 How can autism get you off the draft? 19:28:27 Well, unless it was severe autism. 19:28:36 But you sure don't act like it :-P 19:33:11 The military tends to be pretty picky when it comes to mental status. 19:33:22 Keep in mind: they considered *Feynman* mentally unfit. ;p 19:33:50 wb ais523 19:34:31 hm anyone got a program testing i in binary mode? 19:34:34 Deewiant, maybe you? 19:35:25 nah 19:35:37 except mycology 19:35:47 Deewiant, it only does it in text mode iirc 19:35:52 no, it does both 19:35:57 Deewiant, really? 19:35:59 yes 19:36:05 Deewiant, where? 19:36:09 where it tests i 19:36:40 Deewiant, well why then doesn't it crash or report BAD? Since I don't implement the binary one yet. 19:36:56 Deewiant, I implement i but not o btw 19:36:59 it needs o I think 19:37:03 aha 19:37:08 yeah, it does 19:37:12 because it writes a .tmp 19:37:15 and reads it back in with binary i 19:38:24 AnMaster: hmm, does it say anything about lack of o? 19:38:46 Successfully exited MycoRand. Rerun a few times to ensure ? works. 19:38:47 GOOD: i works in text mode 19:38:47 Opening mycotmp0.tmp... failed. 19:38:47 Trying to write to it with o... 19:38:47 UNDEF: writing to mycotmp0.tmp with o failed 19:38:50 Why don't every draft dodgers register as consciencious objectors? 19:39:00 I mean, do they check it or something? 19:39:09 AnMaster: right 19:39:10 Deewiant, y only claims to implement i 19:39:27 Deewiant, so why it tries testing it at all and report it as UNDEF... no idea 19:39:35 seems like a bug 19:39:48 AnMaster: because the code there is compact and changing it from BAD to UNDEF was easiest 19:40:02 Deewiant, ah, and no room to expand? 19:40:09 possibly 19:40:15 mycorand.bf is loaded nearby 19:40:25 I don't know what exactly goes where there 19:40:35 so I'd rather not expand 19:40:37 Deewiant, ah... 19:40:49 Deewiant, but it is all relative storage offset so that is easy 19:40:58 AnMaster: ? 19:41:09 Deewiant, i is relative storage offset. 19:41:10 the point is that mycorand.bf is there somewhere, but not in the source code 19:41:22 so I don't know where I can expand without running into mycorand.bf stuff 19:41:25 so just moving everything down a few lines should work? 19:41:31 if you properly use storage offset 19:41:50 I don't, there 19:41:55 ah ok 19:42:07 probably wouldn't be too hard to make it do so though 19:42:12 but annoying 19:42:16 so I can't be bothered 19:42:35 Slereah_: at least here in norway, if you register as a conscientous objector, you have to do some civilian community work instead 19:42:59 Can't you also be an objector to that? 19:43:03 Like saying "I'm an anarchist" 19:43:21 Slereah_: no. then you go to prison, i believe. 19:43:30 What dicks 19:43:39 I pay taxes! I don't need to work for you! 19:43:49 Well, I don't pay taxes to Norway 19:43:50 But still 19:44:46 yes you do! 19:45:01 oerjan, I can avoid it for two reasons 1) Gov cuts down on military anyway all the time 2) I got asthma, so health reasons as well 19:45:21 they didn't even contact me about it. heh 19:45:29 well (1) applies in norway too, it would be stupid to object _before_ you're called in 19:47:03 AnMaster: can you hg pull a Mycology from 88.114.230.95:8000? 19:47:33 Deewiant, a sec 19:47:41 Deewiant, what is the hg command? 19:47:55 AnMaster: if you have a repository, hg pull, if not, hg clone 19:48:05 $ hg clone 88.114.230.95:8000 mycology 19:48:05 abort: repository 88.114.230.95:8000 not found! 19:48:15 AnMaster: http 19:48:18 :// 19:48:19 ah. 19:48:41 Successfully exited MycoRand. Rerun a few times to ensure ? works. 19:48:41 GOOD: i works in text mode 19:48:41 Opening mycotmp0.tmp... failed. 19:48:41 Trying to write to it with o... 19:48:43 still like that 19:48:48 yes, I know 19:48:49 what after that 19:48:57 UNDEF: writing to mycotmp0.tmp with o failed: can't test i in binary mode 19:48:57 1y says this is not Concurrent Funge-98, won't test t... 19:49:01 great 19:49:16 AnMaster: says explicitly that it isn't testing i in binary mode because of no o 19:49:16 Mycology. 19:49:26 Deewiant, ah 19:49:40 Deewiant, still tries o even when it isn't supported though ;P 19:49:48 AnMaster: even fitting that string in took a bit of messing about which is why I asked you to test 19:49:56 right 19:50:45 Deewiant, you could potentially test it on mycorand.bf 19:50:57 to see if it is read correctly by i when i is in binary mode 19:51:10 yes, I could 19:51:14 but I don't. :-P 19:52:39 Deewiant, anyway when ATHR goes final and efunge implemented it, will you consider implementing it in ccbi2? 19:52:57 m a y b e 19:53:33 Deewiant, maybe you could send those MVRS change suggestions to Riley? 19:53:44 m a y b e 19:53:44 :-P 19:53:45 Otherwise ATHR is actually more useful since it is better defined 19:54:00 I might spam him when I get around to implementing it 19:54:11 but can't really be bothered right now 19:54:18 so if you are bothered, better that you do it 19:54:33 -!- ab5tract has joined. 19:54:50 Deewiant, also it doesn't seem to allow lacking support for trefunge/unefunge, only for befunge-93/funge-98/funge-108 19:55:41 funge-108?? 19:55:58 ab5tract, work in progress, clearing up issues in funge-98 19:56:05 may become funge-109 ;P 19:56:09 :) 19:56:14 sounds better that way anyway 19:56:17 what? 19:56:21 why? 19:56:43 ab5tract, it depends on when I finish it and when feedback from others are finished 19:56:50 it just does 19:57:02 ab5tract, see http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge-108/funge108.pdf 19:57:13 it replaces fingerprints with uris too 19:57:31 to avoid collisions 19:57:53 huh 19:57:54 ab5tract: There are no actual funge-108 implementations, likely will never be any outside of AnMaster's implementations, and there will likely not be any non-anmaster programs written in it. 19:58:02 That is my assesment. 19:58:05 haha 19:58:20 ehird, well Mike Riley did show some interest in it 19:58:33 Also, while URIs are good for...universally identifying stuff (as in... their whole purpose)...it just makes the funge code ugly because the URIs take up whole lines. 19:58:34 only he didn't want to implement proper URI comparing 19:58:52 ehird: so what 19:59:06 ab5tract: funge code is generally pretty 19:59:17 it could still be pretty 19:59:21 ehird, mycology is? 19:59:25 yes 19:59:34 so would it be with embedded uris IMO 19:59:43 you can have a stack on your stack stack that just stacks uris 19:59:57 and put them somewhere far out in the space, all together in a neat order 20:00:30 ab5tract, name collisions were a problem before 20:00:32 of course i'm visualizing this entirely according to what i envisage as the perfect funge ide 20:00:51 ab5tract, IDEs? Why would you need that 20:01:00 all you need is a emacs major-mode 20:01:01 :P 20:01:16 so that funge doesnt read like a a linear ascii file anymore 20:01:17 ab5tract: i'm planning on making a funge ide 20:01:25 including fizzie's hyperlink-comment idea think 20:01:26 *thing 20:01:32 ab5tract, I hardly ever use IDEs for anything 20:01:54 apart from CDs 20:01:58 I normally use SATA :P 20:02:17 (and no I don't use IDE in the other meaning either) 20:02:36 well shit, AnMaster you have that emacs together and i'll use it once i can directly download emacs bindings coordination through a memory expansion through a e-sata port in my skull 20:02:50 but probably not before that :) 20:03:09 ab5tract, Try kate then? Currently I'm using kate to edit some Erlang code 20:03:13 and irc in emacs 20:03:19 and emacs for some other C files 20:03:25 what i want is a window that shows the space 20:03:43 ab5tract, hm? 20:03:49 and i can zoom and fly around it and whatnot 20:03:50 Emacs is excellent for VHDL, I find 20:03:55 with all sorts of bookmarks 20:03:58 VHDL's syntax is obnoxious 20:04:04 ab5tract, that only make sense for trefunge 20:04:08 and so Emacs has a little wizard-like thing for each keyword 20:04:11 for befunge a text editor is just fine 20:04:16 no it can make sense for mbefunge as well 20:04:22 ais523, hehe 20:04:23 .... 20:04:36 mbefunge? 20:04:45 AnMaster: typo 20:04:47 ah 20:05:04 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:05:07 ab5tract: you've named it, you now have to invent it 20:05:10 ab5tract, anyway opengl based such stuff have been done, but generally they suck 20:05:16 bequnge or something iirc 20:05:23 fails totally in mycology 20:05:25 afk food 20:05:55 ehird: what's your ide going to look like? 20:06:00 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 20:06:14 ab5tract: awesome 20:06:24 swtjc 20:06:41 are you gonna write it in funge? 20:10:42 AnMaster: is emacs capable of having a zoomed out map of an entire 64-bit space? 20:11:06 obviously it would have to be a pretty complex program for anything to even show up at that distance 20:11:15 heh 20:11:22 I think it would mostly show up as sameness if it did 20:11:32 because a program that big's likely to be using its fungespace to store data rather than program 20:11:38 no, i wont 20:11:39 :P 20:11:50 but the idea is to be able to navigate the space on an x,y, and even z access 20:12:03 ais523: precisely 20:12:46 z probably not being allowed to go negative 20:13:17 but you can zoom out and check out all yo' data 20:14:17 however, if emacs gives a great deal of x,y freedom then it would give me the most important feature i seek 20:14:35 ab5tract: emacs has picture-mode 20:14:37 AnMaster: is emacs capable of having a zoomed out map of an entire 64-bit space? 20:14:42 but that doesn't have a zoom IIRC 20:14:46 I don't think that is feasible 20:14:58 also, ab5tract, stop having a 5 in your name, it makes me think people are talking to me when they talk to you 20:15:07 sorry buddy 20:15:15 I'm used to being the only 5-containing-person around here 20:15:19 not gonna happen :P 20:15:20 but don't worry about it 20:15:30 I don't have an exclusive right to 5s... 20:15:53 ab5tract, also as I said when you had left channel in answer to GUI framework 20:16:00 if irc were truly cool i coud use the befunge version of my name 20:16:08 1) gs is part of standard erlang. It uses Tk. 20:16:28 2) Wings3D (a 3D modeller in Erlang) uses some custom-made one that renders to OpenGL 20:16:38 3) fizzie added there was erlgtk 20:16:48 there may be more 20:16:49 no idea 20:16:55 cool 20:17:08 ab5tract, but bindings for funge would be painful 20:17:33 AnMaster: the idea of funge on erlang is very cool 20:17:36 ab5tract, but since I plan to make = *evaluate erlang*, this may be a good idea 20:17:41 or it may not 20:17:54 I want to write a funge interp in something silly now 20:17:59 like Thutu, that would be a disaster 20:18:03 anyway doing = as system() would be truly painful in erlang 20:18:08 You can, apparently, with a bit of twiddling, use Tile (the less sucky Tk widget set) with Tkinter (the Python Tk bindings); I wonder if that's the case of 'gs' too. 20:18:19 hmm... actually, I have some ideas how a Thutu interp for Befunge-93 could work... 20:18:19 ab5tract, anyway efunge now have i also, but not o t or = yet 20:18:39 ab5tract, t may never happen, since it will have ATHR 20:18:43 ais523: you must do that 20:19:04 but I have lots of other esostuff I want to do 20:19:09 ab5tract, however, I must warn you that I'm a I'm a slow worker, especially during non-holidays 20:19:09 and two RL projects which are almost eso 20:19:11 AnMaster: funge-108 should just assume ATHR 20:19:27 fizzie, and no idea about that for gs 20:19:33 gs stands for graphic server btw 20:19:40 ais523: "almost eso" sounds pretty cool 20:19:43 For some reason I find the Tk look quaint. 20:20:01 ab5tract: I described my University fourth-year Masters project in this channel 20:20:03 fizzie, it reminds me of mosaic yes... 20:20:03 because its like pre-motif right? 20:20:05 and the people here said I was mad 20:20:15 haha 20:20:16 fizzie, I think it used motif 20:20:26 ah yes mosaic did indeed 20:20:37 uh 20:20:40 tk isnt as old as motif 20:20:40 but 20:20:43 Oh, Tile is part of the 8.5 Tcl/Tk release. Didn't know that. 20:20:45 tk has modern widget sets nowadays 20:20:49 ehird, looks similar 20:20:54 and maybe 20:21:20 not maybe 20:21:21 it does 20:21:22 i know for a fact 20:21:25 fizzie, what I wonder is how Tk can work with gs since I have no tcl installed 20:21:32 oh wait 20:21:34 it isn't tcl 20:21:42 it's tclsh8.4 20:21:46 ah so I have it 20:22:02 wb ais523 20:22:57 thanks 20:40:54 fungot: Hey, try speaking like Terry Pratchett writes. Just for curiosity's sake. 20:40:54 fizzie: no, that was their trouble... 20:41:07 fungot: Pretty please? 20:41:08 fizzie: ( kids generally, i meet people before they're buried./ ones near/ coast build rafts and head out across lonely seas to lands that are :) little clouded or full of stormy weather. 20:41:34 _Really_, that "other text than irclogs" script has some serious issues with :) and /. 20:42:09 Hmmmm... 20:43:21 Actually, no. It's just that the text generation code in fungot has a hardcoded list of punctuation tokens, but since :) and / are so _rare_ in the source text, they are not used, and in their place there's some of the most common tokens. 20:43:21 fizzie: carrot took another step back. then, his claws fnord tracks in/ floor above. every so often. 20:43:48 I think "the" has been mapped to / here, and :) maybe to "a". 20:44:25 Well, that's easy to fix. Thanks for clarifying it. 20:47:15 carrot doesn't have claws! 20:47:28 OR DO THEY 20:48:44 fungot: Hey, try speaking like Terry Pratchett writes. Just for curiosity's sake. 20:48:45 AnMaster: ( i know." :) stubby troll finger prodded cuddy in/ back of his mind. 20:48:48 how would that be? 20:48:54 I have read all the books of course 20:49:13 oh wait... You mean like Carrot? with misplaced , 20:49:14 and such 20:49:17 or like Vampires? 20:49:37 wait a sec 20:49:46 AnMaster: ( i know." :) stubby troll finger prodded cuddy in/ back of his mind. <-- huh 20:49:55 fizzie, you reloaded word list? 20:50:00 also did it crash now? 20:50:03 fungot, 20:50:07 ^echo foo 20:50:09 guess so 20:50:15 Yes, I was just scp'ing the new model over and you went and talked to it. :p 20:50:18 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:50:38 -!- fungot has joined. 20:50:48 fungot's problem with :) and / should now be fixed. 20:50:48 fizzie: " oh. pardon me, i'm just a novice, but he couldn't quite see what it did to metal. 20:51:03 fungot, :) 20:51:03 AnMaster: " you can damn well find another witch for lancre! for the fnord 20:51:25 fizzie, I fear the " mess up the effect 20:51:27 same for :) 20:51:46 I'm a fan of those books. Yet they lack :) as far as I remember 20:51:46 Well, the " comes from the source text. 20:51:55 Yes, that was the problem. 20:51:58 fizzie, which book(s) did you use? 20:52:12 There were no :)s and :(s so it removed those tokens, but fungot's punctuation list is hardcoded. 20:52:12 fizzie: " will you look at that sky?' 20:52:31 So the two most common tokens ("the" and "a") were translated to the two last punctuation tokens (:) and /) by fungot. 20:52:31 fizzie: he turned and waved at someone in the face. 20:52:34 It's fixed now. 20:52:46 The " comes from the source text, though. Lots of quoted text there. 20:53:23 fizzie, well yeah, all the talk 20:53:33 anyway *what books*? 20:53:42 I used the Discworld books 1, 3, 7, 8, 9, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 23, 25, 26 and 27. 20:53:58 fizzie, where did you get electronic copies? 20:53:59 Mainly because those were in the highly illegal ebook pile I once got. 20:54:04 ah... 20:54:13 fizzie, So what ones are those? 20:54:16 Titles I mean 20:54:48 Colour of Magic, Equal Rites, Pyramids, Guards! Guards!, Eric, Small Gods, Lords and Ladies, Men At Arms, Soul Music, Interesting Times, ... 20:54:59 fizzie, also lacking number 2 is kind of painful if you have number 1. Since 1 ends with "to be continued" 20:55:15 Maskerade, Feet of Clay, Hogfather, Jingo, Carpe Jugulum, The Truth, The Thief of Time, The Last Hero. 20:55:18 neither 1 nor 2 is much good anyway 20:55:24 some of the later ones are good, though 20:55:24 ais523, agreed 20:55:29 probably 3 was the first good one 20:55:39 ais523, Thief of time is my favourite 20:56:00 my favourite are the Ankh-Morpork Watch trilogy, but thief of time is good too 20:56:07 trilogy? 20:56:11 isn't it more than that now? 20:56:33 yes, I suppose so 20:56:43 but I'm not counting night watch as part of that trilogy, although it's OK 20:56:58 lets see, 7 20:57:00 I think 20:57:06 some more depending on how you count 20:57:11 Thief of time is probably my favourite too, though I liked the Bromeliad trilogy 20:57:36 What do you think about the last one? Nation? 20:57:45 I haven't read it 20:57:52 It is pretty good, but kind of non-Pratchett in style 20:58:54 I haven't read anything later-than-or-equal-to Going Postal yet, actually. 20:59:13 The Going Postal series is pretty good, actually 20:59:19 Well I got the complete collection of all books apart from some child books 20:59:20 hmm... some of the books I have to read multiple times to understand 20:59:32 Going Postal is one of them, but once I got it I liked it 20:59:34 AnMaster : Do you have the non-discworld books too? 20:59:35 get maurice and the amazing cat :D 20:59:37 Slereah_, yes 20:59:39 and the maps 20:59:47 (err... Maurice and his amazing rodents) 20:59:52 Asztal, that one too 20:59:53 Even... The unadultarated cat? :o 20:59:56 Slereah_, yep 20:59:57 why? 21:00:06 Slereah_, I don't have that "where is my cow" 21:00:16 It never got translated in French, so I wonder if it's well known 21:00:23 I have it, but I had to order it 21:00:30 Slereah_, err why would French be of any interest? 21:00:38 Well, I am Fronch 21:00:42 I live in Sweden after all 21:00:44 And all other books are translated 21:00:53 Slereah_, well I get them in English anyway 21:00:54 Even shitty ones like Dark side of the sun 21:01:03 Or the Johnny books 21:01:03 preserves the language, reading in original language 21:01:09 Slereah_, dark side isn't that bad 21:01:17 I personally only own The Science of Discworld 1/2/3 and some (around six?) random Discworld books, probably with a uniform distribution of Finnish translations (received as gifts) and English versions (bought for reading when travelling). 21:01:22 Slereah_, what do you think about Carpet people? 21:01:29 It's good 21:01:39 Slereah_, do you have new or original version? 21:01:42 I only got the new one 21:02:00 Slereah_, also that is another thing I miss, some of the discworld diaries 21:02:14 Slereah_, also I assume you got the discworld quiz books? 21:03:08 Obviously I picked the right author for fungot to quote from. :p 21:03:08 fizzie: " samuel!" said caleb. " everything we believe is coming true. and her leg still dropped off. so i thought i'd better make certain.' 21:03:09 also I lack some of those "short stories" that are listed in "books by the same author". 21:03:39 fizzie, well he is well known, he writes fantasy (though unusual such) and we are geeks. What did you expect? 21:03:58 * AnMaster glares at fungot 21:03:58 AnMaster: angua picked out the little organizer and raised the cleaver and brought it down. 21:04:05 um 21:04:06 what 21:04:18 fizzie, I think these sounds pretty bad in fact 21:04:47 I don't think very many other well-known fantasy authors would have multiple people here owning a rather complete collection of such a large set of books. 21:05:05 Yes, it isn't very conversational. 21:05:09 fizzie, also it would be more realistic if the space between " and the text is correct 21:05:17 fungot? 21:05:17 AnMaster: ' it goes with us. it's very urgent.' 21:05:18 I'll get to that one of these days. 21:05:26 fungot really? 21:05:26 AnMaster: dorfl wrote: ' wuffles ( 16), formerly of the palace. 21:05:31 haha 21:05:33 what a mixup 21:06:12 fizzie, what was the logic for that one? 21:06:29 fungot, What about the copyright on your quotes? 21:06:29 AnMaster: individual concerned. of course. 21:06:38 fungot, really? 21:06:42 Punctuation is separate tokens, so when it choose "wuffles", it only had "wrote: '" as context. 21:06:43 ah hit the limit.. 21:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hrrm. 21:07:19 I don't think I have very many other large collections of text on my computer to use as source text. So far IRC-talk has worked best for generating IRC-talk-like text -- a huge surprise, there. 21:07:19 fizzie, "wuffles (16), formerly of the palace." kind of make sense for The Truth though 21:07:53 fizzie, maybe some space cleaning? Like removing the space after ( and such 21:07:55 fungot: Just go back to IRC-speak. 21:07:56 fizzie: run full, run delegate, more. 21:08:16 fizzie, well now it will be that if you include this channel in the log 21:08:17 The space after ( is just an artifact of the Funge-98 token-sequence-to-text implementation. 21:08:30 I'll get it fixed at some point. 21:08:36 fungot, maybe you should bug fizzie about refining it? 21:08:37 AnMaster: you can approach it symbolically! fnord 21:08:51 fungot, like... in lisp? But you are in Befunge... How would that work? 21:08:52 AnMaster: seems not. 21:09:07 fungot, great that you admit your mistakes 21:09:07 AnMaster: and i'm sick of arguing with trotskyists when i was there i think 21:09:17 fizzie, trotskyists? 21:09:27 fizzie, what book? 21:09:49 It's IRC-speak now, probably from #scheme. 21:10:18 fizzie, using discworld was cool :P 21:10:26 "This really reminds me of arguing with Trotskyists when I was a young lad. They're all necons now, of course." was the original quote. 21:10:38 oh well 21:11:03 It used the "of arguing with" context to switch to the Trotskyists phase, and "when I was" context to go somewhere else. 21:11:54 Discworld didn't actually work as badly as (or at least any worse than) Darwin, but it still didn't sound like conversation. 21:12:08 I wonder if I should feed it some telephone conversations. 21:13:23 I seem to have 86 megabytes of transcribed telephone conversations here. 21:13:40 I'm not quite sure what our license allows us to do with it, though. 21:15:08 fizzie, you tried Darwin? 21:15:09 When? 21:15:41 A couple of times, actually. 21:15:54 Some twenty or so books of his. 21:15:56 fizzie, got some quotes of it? 21:16:07 Well, it was full of :)s and /s and biology. :p 21:16:11 fizzie, Charles Darwin produced that many? 21:16:18 fizzie, oh 21:16:29 Same bug there. 21:16:32 fizzie, and an archaic language I guess 21:16:42 http://zem.fi/~fis/darwinbooks.txt is the list of books I used. 21:21:52 darwin is awesome 21:21:56 did i tell you about how he's a pope? 21:21:57 true story. 21:22:07 Whirrrr, there go the telephone conversations. 21:22:47 5849 separate ten-minute phonecalls. 21:23:31 what 21:23:45 That's something like a thousand hours of speech. 21:24:09 what are you doing 21:24:35 Running out of memory, it seems. :p 21:24:43 but i mean 21:24:45 what is the goooooal 21:24:53 ehird: fizzie's planning to feed them to fungot 21:24:53 ais523: how dare you steal that version of hato, it's buggy 21:25:01 crazy 21:25:06 fizzie: also: did you invent BrainfuckNomic 21:25:13 someone in ##nomic thought you did, but wasn't sure 21:25:16 ehird: it's FOR SCIENCE 21:25:18 No, I don't think I did. 21:25:34 Two gigabytes of memory and two gigabytes of swap in use, I'm not sure my script can handle all that. 21:25:34 fizzie: how about the funge spec? 21:25:44 for fungot i mean 21:25:45 ab5tract: you still need something to pay the coders to fix it 21:26:34 Hey! Who wants to roll a securely random number???? 21:27:03 return 4; 21:27:23 Slereah_: randomest number there is 21:27:41 in fact i was thinking of exactly that 21:27:55 Someone in the theoretical computer science lab has that Dilbert strip about RNGs on their door. 21:28:26 What is that strip, fizzie 21:28:33 "And here we have our random number generator..." (troll saying:) "Nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine..." "Are you sure that's random?" "That's the problem with randomness, you can never be sure." 21:28:42 Maybe that sort of transcription would be enough to find it. 21:28:46 Ah yes, that one 21:28:50 yes, it's quite a clever joke 21:29:07 My browser seems to have hung up thanks to that Perl script eating all the memory. 21:29:22 Although usually, random numbers generator aren't made to do real randomness 21:29:26 fizzie: maybe you should feed it less input? 21:29:29 Well, at least not with the things I use 'em for 21:29:38 They just need to fit a distribution 21:29:50 ais523: That's a good idea, but I don't want to interrupt it now, in the hopes that it will be done real-soon-now. 21:30:18 It's less raw data than the IRC logs, but apparently somewhat different, since the irc-log-model-building didn't take quite this long. 21:30:57 Ooh, it got past stage 2 (selecting the tokens) and is now converting all the conversations to a single string of tokens. 21:33:21 I'm sure that it will finish soon and then I'll notice that the script was somehow borken and the output is unusable. 21:34:57 Actually, now that I think of it, I think I ran the IRC logs thing on one of the computing cluster machines with heaps of memory, and not on my own puny computar. (Since no-one seemed to be using them right then.) 21:36:39 fizzie, they are in use now? 21:36:46 Haven't checked. 21:37:32 Seems pretty busy, actually. Node 13 only has a load of 1, though. 21:37:34 fizzie, and couldn't you do like processing it in chunks and then merging those chunks later? 21:37:52 Possibly, but I haven't spent much time tweaking this thing. 21:38:46 fizzie: which cluster is that? 21:39:23 Deewiant: The HUT CIS one. Well, I guess we're now called ICS, having merged with the TCS people, and I think they're in the process of merging our computing systems. 21:40:00 AAAAH 21:40:08 So much acronyms... 21:40:12 It... Burns! 21:41:40 HUT is Helsinki University of Technology (although they're in the process of changing the name and merging with two other universities; one for arts and one for CAPITALISM, I mean, commerce and all that stuff); CIS was Center for Information Science (maybe?), ICS is Information and Computer Science, and TCS is Theoretical Computer Science. 21:41:52 clearly a case of AOL 21:42:04 It's all very confusing; I'm not quite sure where I work. 21:42:13 but you do work? 21:42:32 you don't have to answer that 21:42:34 I should be writing my master's thesis around now. 21:42:38 fizzie: yeah, I just checked the TCS one and it wasn't that one so I was wondering ;-) 21:42:48 there's a bunch of room there if you have access to it. 21:43:33 Deewiant: There was some talk about getting the computing clusters set up so that all now-ICS-people can access both ones by October, but I haven't heard any news and/or instructions yet. 21:43:43 They did change my numerical UID to avoid conflicts, though. 21:43:51 Heh. 21:45:01 Some three of the ten "newer nodes" in the CIS cluster only have two of the four cores in use, so I guess there would technically speaking be some room there too. 21:45:15 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:45:18 so what, you're part-timing at CIS? 21:45:29 Full-timing nowadays, doing that master's thesis thing. 21:45:45 alright 21:45:52 I was at TCS over the summer 21:46:10 I was at ICS for the last summer (2007) and got stuck there. 21:46:11 would have probably continued if I hadn't started at HSE 21:46:29 I think the script has actually finished, since the data file has stopped growing, but it's not stopping. Maybe Perl is doing that full garbage-collection trip it does when quitting. 21:46:30 might be back next summer, though. 21:47:14 Okay, it finished; now it's anyone's guess if my C++ code can handle building 4-grams out of that mess. 21:48:07 I don't think I quite got the script to clean up the conversations right. 21:48:58 91328 unigrams, 2200072 bigrams, and now it's computing 3-gram counts. 21:49:12 5851827 3-grams; 4-grams next. 21:49:39 I really should've done something more clever here, but I was in a hurry to get some sort of babbling out of fungot. 21:49:39 fizzie: sounds challenging. :) i just remembered 21:50:05 optbot was chattering all the time, I didn't want my bot to be so quiet. 21:50:05 fizzie: hm? 21:50:14 optbot: Well, you were! 21:50:15 fizzie: there should be more of a market for esolang programmers 21:50:32 I think we all agree on that one, at least. 21:50:42 yep 21:51:44 Nah; I'd be worried if companies actually /wanted/ you to use esolangs 21:52:15 Deewiant: if VHDL is an esolang, lots do 21:52:23 -!- slereah has joined. 21:52:28 I guess it isn't, though 21:52:51 Deewiant: Nokia gave me a summer job in 2006 for knowing Befunge. (Okay, so the chain of causality is maybe not exactly clear, but I'm sure that was the main reason they had.) 21:53:07 fizzie: go on 21:53:11 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:53:12 how did that happen? 21:53:25 ais523: they were interested in that he had esolangs in his hobbies section on his cv 21:53:27 I talked about this just yesterday or so, I'm not sure I want to bore people again with it. 21:53:28 iirc 21:53:33 fizzie: sure, I'm sure it helped for my TCS summer job as well. Hell, CCBI and Mycology were pretty much the only things on my CV. 21:53:34 That's a reasonable summary. 21:53:46 fizzie: ah, I wasn't here yesterday 21:54:04 fizzie: but, nobody's wanted me to actually /use/ Funge for something :-) 21:54:08 or you, I hope. 21:54:19 i totally hope i can get a job with such achievements as "wrote a program to roll a dice between two people, cheat-proof' 21:54:21 Deewiant: Well, no, it was just Perl. :p 21:55:43 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:56:41 -!- Fourchan_Partyva has joined. 21:57:28 Finish, you silly little piece of code! 21:57:38 Language, fizzie 21:57:44 -!- Fourchan_Partyva has changed nick to Slereah. 21:59:09 I would endure this better if I wasn't so sure that it's going to just start generating messy and uninteresting jumble of words as output. 22:00:14 -!- Corun has joined. 22:07:01 It's only 350 lines of C++, how can it take so long to execute it! 22:12:39 I can give you 11 chars of bash which will take a while 22:12:55 Deewiant: the standard obfuscated fork bomb? 22:13:21 :(){:};: is shorter, and an infiniloop I think 22:13:36 although really we need AnMaster to check that, e's the resident Bash expert 22:13:44 It looks sensible. 22:13:54 no, it doesn't really 22:13:58 can't beat Windows batch, though :-P 22:13:58 only esoprogrammers write like that 22:14:00 ? 22:14:03 even Perl has more letters usually 22:14:13 AnMaster: is :(){:};: an infiniloop in bash? 22:14:16 although hmm 22:14:20 I'm just being impatient because I'd like to see fungot talk like an American telephone conversationalist. 22:14:20 fizzie: on my end, that's solved, i think 22:14:22 -!- kar8nga has joined. 22:14:22 what does $0|$0 do 22:14:25 and does bash optimise tail-recursion, for that matter? 22:14:27 ais523, well I usually don't do recursion in bash 22:14:30 I never tried even 22:14:50 it is not the language I would write functional style in 22:14:52 anybody want to try $0|$0? 22:14:59 Deewiant, no! 22:15:01 and don't 22:15:06 isn't that a better fork bomb? 22:15:06 Did you just divide by zero? 22:15:15 Deewiant, well piping bash to bash 22:15:16 ... 22:15:30 Deewiant, but should be better since it only start one bash in each 22:15:45 Slereah, and no 22:16:17 AnMaster: evidently it doesn't bomb 22:16:26 maybe in a file? 22:16:26 Deewiant, well yeah 22:16:30 but still silly 22:16:34 anyway 22:16:38 I was debugging erlang atm 22:16:38 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 22:16:44 ** exception exit: {noproc,{gen_server,call,[efunge_input,stop]}} 22:16:44 in function gen_server:call/2 22:16:44 in call from efunge:start/2 22:16:45 It can't be a fork bomb 22:16:46 that makes no sense 22:16:48 It has a pipe 22:16:50 Slereah, indeed 22:16:51 err 22:16:52 It's a pipe bomb 22:16:58 you can have a fork bomb 22:16:59 with a pipe 22:17:04 Slereah: the standard obfuscated bash fork bomb has a pipe in 22:17:05 the standard bash forkbomb have a pipe 22:17:08 It's a joke, AnMaster 22:17:13 but I suspect Slereah was trying to make a pun 22:17:21 A bad one apparently :( 22:19:08 Slereah: $0|$0 could be a fork bomb because it starts itself twice 22:20:01 I don't know what all that means, Deewiant 22:20:23 meh 22:20:39 Deewiant: I'm loading up a VM to test it in 22:20:41 Yeah, I suck pretty hard in CS 22:20:51 ais523: I tried it, but I'm not sure what happened 22:21:02 Deewiant: what did top say? 22:21:05 spawned a few shells but didn't bomb 22:21:20 I seemed to have two shells running on top of each other though: every keypress was echoed twice 22:21:25 weird 22:22:01 * ais523 waits for Knoppix to detect all the fake devices on the VM 22:23:17 Deewiant: So did you run it in a file or just on the command line? 22:23:21 fizzie: file 22:23:39 command line, then file, to be exact 22:23:46 didn't notice anything happening from the cmdline though 22:24:18 Simple $0 on command line here is just "-bash: -bash: command not found" thanks to that '-' in the name. 22:24:49 well 22:24:56 I think I got input server working 22:24:57 Would think it might work in a file, though. 22:25:04 one step towards ATHR 22:25:46 Deewiant: I just tried in a VM 22:25:50 and every window in the VM disappeared 22:25:54 heh 22:26:10 apart from the KDE toolbar along the bottom 22:26:16 the desktop background went too... 22:26:23 Well, I'm going to bed. Good luck hosing your systems! 22:26:37 * ais523 exits the VM 22:26:40 it seems to have crashed 22:26:45 so quite possibly a fork-bomb then 22:31:08 +ul (^bf ,[.,]!Hi optbot!)S 22:31:08 ais523: oh... yeah I forgot to get rid of the newline. 22:31:09 ^bf ,[.,]!Hi optbot! 22:31:09 Hi optbot! 22:31:09 thutubot: i guess mapcar is more descriptive 22:31:09 fungot: cool I think your notation makes sense then 22:31:09 optbot: my hypothesis has to do 22:31:10 fungot: Ping! 22:31:10 optbot: i've already been using a manually downloaded eclipse so far, effectively, that it has became like ie was 22:31:10 fungot: it can type higher order functions and all 22:31:11 optbot: objc and smaltalk does... in a filter... fnord 22:31:11 fungot: Is that valid Malbolge, Gregor? 22:31:12 optbot: ams isn't in gnu anymore? :) renaming whenever there's a conflict? 22:31:12 fungot: Wheee. . . 22:32:04 optbot: you can say that again 22:32:04 oerjan: 3 ihope: ps 22:32:44 Hmm, according to a (standard outdoor-type, because we only have one fridge/freezer-specific one) thermometer our freezer is -38 degrees Celsius. I find that hard to believe. 22:32:52 so do I 22:40:26 Should've just told that thing to use up to 3-grams. 22:43:17 http://paste.lisp.org/display/68711 22:43:19 ais523, fizzie ^ 22:43:23 that may be interesting 22:43:29 it is generated on a template 22:43:56 that is how simple making a server is in erlang 22:43:57 :) 22:44:03 could be shortened down a lot too 22:44:04 AnMaster: it's even simpler in INTERCACL 22:44:06 *INTERCAL 22:44:08 well, CLC-INTERCAL 22:44:10 ais523, really? 22:44:16 Claudio has a 2-line pastebin server somewhere 22:44:22 and the client isn't much more complicated 22:44:29 ais523, huh? 22:44:29 well, not pastebin, global clipboard 22:44:45 AnMaster: well, everything's client-driven in CLC-INTERCAL 22:44:48 ais523, two long messy lines? 22:44:49 you steal data from the server 22:44:53 and two short simple lines 22:44:59 ais523, and how long is the client? 22:45:05 all a server has to do is go into an infiniloop 22:45:06 ais523, since the same module includes the client 22:45:10 as for the client, probably 4 or 5 22:45:16 let me try to find the source 22:45:18 read_next_char() -> 22:45:18 gen_server:call({global, ?SERVER}, read_char, infinity). 22:45:22 read_next_integer() -> 22:45:22 gen_server:call({global, ?SERVER}, read_integer, infinity). 22:45:25 that is all the client is 22:45:25 I'd try looking but my browser is again swapped out. :p 22:45:26 really 22:45:53 ? indicates "treat this as a macro" 22:46:00 means erlang macros very clean 22:46:03 ah, here's the server: 22:46:05 since you have to mark them 22:46:06 DO IGNORE @1 22:46:06 (1) PLEASE COME FROM (1) 22:46:11 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:46:12 simple enough to paste into a channel 22:46:43 ais523, well... strip all comment -spec and -type from my paste and you get the bare minimal one 22:47:39 ais523, still this was easy, I just selected gen_server template in erlange-mode in emacs. then filled it in 22:47:47 heh 22:48:03 'night 22:48:04 ais523, gen_server is a design pattern 22:48:12 the main one for erlang I guess 22:48:12 Them conversations, they're so awkward. They're all like "uh so according to this we should be talking about where we get our news" "oh uh well I just watch TV" "so.. what do we do now for the next nine-and-a-half minutes?" 22:48:20 -!- Mony has quit ("Ne regrettons pas le passé, ne nous préoccupons pas de l'avenir : le sage vit dans le présent."). 22:48:26 ais523, all the servery details is handled elsewhere, all you write is a callback module 22:48:33 + some API functions for clients 22:48:59 fizzie, huh? 22:49:05 fizzie, what is the data source? 22:49:55 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:50:00 It's the Fisher English Corpus (part 2) from LDC. "Conversational telephone speech". I don't know (read: haven't bothered to check) the details on how they collected that stuff. 22:50:13 I'm just feeding fungot the transcriptions. 22:50:14 fizzie: where c iz a character for schwa. nothing 22:51:03 Ten-minute conversations between parties "A" and "B"; they have been anonymized. 22:51:45 I think it works so that there's just two people who don't know each other, and they give them a topic to talk about and then they have to spend at least ten minutes having a conversation. 22:51:56 -!- Slereah has joined. 22:52:21 I'll have to thank the US Department of Defence (and DARPA) for sponsoring the data collection so that I can put it to good use like this. 22:52:30 heh 22:52:57 (Assuming my model-building task ever finishes.) 22:53:10 it's a testsuite for your model-builder, obviously 22:55:11 Well, our department paid for that stuff, I'm sure they wouldn't like it to go to waste. 22:55:41 ais523, fizzie: http://paste.lisp.org/display/68711#1 22:55:44 that may be less crufty 22:55:51 I rewrote comments to edoc style 22:56:00 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:56:01 well, relatively short 22:56:04 which also can be used to auto-generate html docs from 22:56:06 but CLC-INTERCAL still wins 22:56:06 -!- Fourchan_Partyva has joined. 22:56:10 AnMaster: Documentation overload, man. Let the code speak for itself. 22:56:16 hi Fourchan_Partyva 22:56:20 ais523: == Slereah 22:56:24 yes, I guessed 22:56:25 ehird, as I said it was generated from a template 22:56:28 from the hostname 22:56:32 ehird, in erlang-mode 22:56:33 strange nick, though 22:57:43 "i guess our topic is the movies whether you like to go to the theater or rent them and stay home" -- hah, I wouldn't know how to talk 10 minutes about that. 22:57:57 ais523, as for clc... It is just harder to use still :P 22:58:04 yes, obviously 22:58:11 fizzie: I generally don't watch films at all 22:58:16 so the answer is "neither" 22:58:23 ais523, same 22:58:36 i have nowhere near the attention span neccessary for a film 22:58:37 :D 22:58:48 ehird, as if we didn't know tht 22:58:49 that* 22:59:09 ehird, not even long enough for Star Trek? 22:59:26 star trek is pretty boring most of the time 22:59:33 in my opinion 22:59:37 They all start with "it's my first time doing this" or "have you done this before?" or things like that; it's like reading a transcription of a telephone dating thing. 22:59:43 I'm watching Star Trek right now 22:59:45 That episode is ridiculous 22:59:49 -!- Fourchan_Partyva has changed nick to Slereah_. 22:59:58 fizzie, how strange still 23:00:05 "Rascals" 23:00:07 fizzie: Is this freely available? 23:00:10 Slereah_, what generation? 23:00:15 Here's the plot : a bunch of characters are turned into children! 23:00:16 TNG 23:00:22 ehird: No, it's $7000 for non-LDC members. :p 23:00:28 fizzie: What the fuck. :D 23:00:31 fizzie, LDC? 23:00:36 I could just torrent it, I'm sure it's somewhere. 23:00:49 Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania. 23:00:52 And I will feel absolutely no guilt for downloading the extremely precious HUGE-ASS ARCHIVE OF AWKWARD CONVERSATIONS 23:00:53 fizzie, also why would anyone pay for that stuff... 23:00:55 They collect all kinds of speech corpuses. 23:00:58 considering how bad it sounds 23:01:10 Well, it's quite a challenging test for a speech recognizer. 23:01:32 It's not really recreational reading it's for. 23:01:38 fizzie, they fail even on easy stuff... there is no point in trying it on that hard stuff 23:02:01 even the OS X one is hilariously bad 23:02:13 and it is actually one of the better ones I seen so far 23:02:16 so is the default Windows one 23:02:26 ais523, well the windows one is worse 23:02:27 I used to have fun playing Chinese Whispers with it 23:02:36 "Chinese Whispers"? 23:03:23 For clean speech, I don't think they've got a word error rate percentage of more than a low-single-digit number. And besides, the hard stuff is what's interesting. 23:03:44 fizzie, hm... 23:03:47 "Failure" is what you want out of it. 23:03:50 ais523, still what is that game? 23:04:02 "They" here refer to state-of-the-art stuff. I don't know anything about the bundled ones. 23:04:05 AnMaster: basically, it requires a very large number of people 23:04:11 the first one thinks up a phrase and whispers it to the second 23:04:16 the second whispers it to the third 23:04:17 and so on 23:04:21 ais523, and then? 23:04:22 then the last person says it out loud 23:04:25 and at the end, you compare the two phrases 23:04:28 ah 23:04:31 and everyone laughs at how different it is from the original 23:04:32 and see how much got lost in the bad whispering 23:04:45 ais523, it will actually be much different? 23:04:50 if you have enough people, yes 23:04:59 yes 23:05:00 it doesn't work with only a few as they remember what it's supposed to be 23:05:15 but speech recognisers never catch on, so you can play two-player with them 23:05:18 ais523, well if they don't know what it is supposed to be? 23:05:24 AnMaster: that's the whole point 23:05:31 you don't know what it's supposed to be, but you hear something 23:05:34 " it doesn't work with only a few as they remember what it's supposed to be" 23:05:36 ehird, 23:05:36 so you try and pass on what you think you heard 23:05:36 ^ 23:05:37 that 23:05:41 was what I meant 23:05:44 AnMaster: I mean, if you try to go round more than once 23:05:49 ais523, ah ok 23:05:52 then people remember what they heard the firs time 23:05:55 It's called "rikkinäinen puhelin" (lit: broken phone) in Finland. 23:06:10 most successful games are played with about 100 people or so, and yes I have been in a Chinese Whispers game that big 23:06:11 I have never been much for such games 23:06:30 when I was young[er] i used to pass on a completely different phrase. 23:06:37 so that at the end everyone asks who the hell messed it up :D 23:06:37 ehird, hehe 23:06:50 ehird: that's generally considered cheating 23:06:57 it is 23:06:57 :-) 23:06:58 but in any set of 100 you get a few like that 23:07:02 ais523, it is impossible to prove who did it 23:07:06 more or less 23:07:07 well 23:07:09 it's quite EASY to 23:07:15 oh? 23:07:21 AnMaster: not the way we played it, people often asked 2 people back rather than 1 if they suspected the previous person was cheating 23:07:24 for a second opinion 23:07:33 not that that's legal either, but you can't really stop it 23:07:39 same way "psychics" can communicate with people back from the dead 23:07:44 just look around 23:07:55 the people who did it will be easy to spot after you do it enough times, i imagine 23:08:09 hm 23:08:26 also what do "psychics" have to do with it? 23:08:31 they are just making it up after all 23:08:54 no, they're not 23:09:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading 23:09:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_reading 23:09:21 you seriously don't believe in such para-normal stuff? 23:09:21 even the ones who truly believe they are doing it do that 23:09:24 they just dont' realise it 23:09:31 AnMaster: please click links before saying anything 23:09:39 you just made yourself look like a fool... 23:09:43 ehird, I did click link after 23:09:52 anyway I said it before 23:10:00 but I have bad lag spikes atm 23:10:43 lagom lag 23:12:10 oerjan, no too much 23:12:12 not lagom 23:17:59 I hope the C++ code doesn't have any same sort of bugs that cause fungot to occasionally go to an infinite loop when generating babble. It's computated that thing for a suspiciously long time, compared to how fast it did the first stages. 23:17:59 fizzie: http://pastebin.ca/ 397959 mathematica is a kickass piece of software 23:18:51 fizzie, attach gdb to it, add some trace points? 23:19:01 Uh.. what's that paste? 23:19:03 Mathematica is okay 23:19:13 But sometimes, it's hard to handle 23:19:16 I rather like Mathematica, even though the language is a bit funky. 23:19:28 I don't think I've compiled that thing with debugging symbols, and my gdb-fu is weak. 23:19:30 fizzie, H and lots of question marks 23:19:37 # 23:19:37 H??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 23:19:37 # 23:19:37 ??????????????????????????????????e????????????????????????????????????????????? 23:19:37 # 23:19:37 ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 23:19:45 -!- Corun has joined. 23:19:45 Yes, but what's the point of it. 23:19:46 the # are from line numbers 23:19:49 bah 23:19:55 fizzie, no clue, check origin? 23:19:59 you got the logs 23:20:12 Looks somewhat hello-worldy. 23:20:32 fizzie, well where did it get that quote from? 23:20:44 fizzie, the pastebin I mean 23:20:57 Checking, but it seems sort-of cheating not to try figuring it out. 23:21:55 hm i vaguely recall that 23:22:12 oerjan, oh? 23:22:32 was it the dupdog hello world maybe 23:22:37 dupdog? 23:22:41 * AnMaster google 23:22:56 Dupdog, yes. 23:23:06 The program is in the esolang wiki. 23:24:36 hm 23:24:39 that looks odd 23:24:47 and doesn't fit the desc for the language above 23:25:20 oh wait 23:25:21 yeah 23:26:06 ok 23:26:13 that should not be tc as far as I can tell? 23:26:24 since how do you do even a trivial infinite loop? 23:26:35 wait 23:26:39 duplicate source 23:26:40 hm 23:27:40 i don't think we ever found out 23:27:46 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 23:28:51 (Must sleep now, hopefully fungot'll be ready to speak all "um uh [noise] umm" telephone conversation by tomorrow.) 23:28:52 fizzie: i'm religious!! i wanta tell you you're a great comedian sgeo 23:29:41 Sometimes I have a feeling fungot's a few bits short of a full byte. 23:29:41 fizzie: in scheme it is executed 23:33:35 fizzie, well 23:33:35 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:33:37 yeah 23:33:40 fizzie: i'm religious!! i wanta tell you you're a great comedian sgeo 23:33:40 AnMaster: because they can feel they're on the left margin. 23:33:41 heheh 23:34:14 Sgeo, what a coincidence you joined just after 23:34:35 .. 23:35:47 fun fact - the eso pastebin is about to be up 23:35:50 putting the final touches on it 23:36:10 night too 23:41:37 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 2008-10-18: 00:04:16 YAY 00:04:29 The ESO pastebin _finally_ launches, after me working on it for all of 10 minutes. :-P 00:04:38 http://paste.eso-std.org/. Yes, it's spartan, yes, that's intentional. have fun. 00:05:09 Unfortunately, pastes 1 and 2 (http://paste.eso-std.org/1 and http://paste.eso-std.org/2) are taken from me testing. 00:05:14 So you can't nab that piece of history. 00:21:26 ... and now there's a python api (available on the page) 00:46:57 Aww, it's not written in Brainfuck? :( 00:48:16 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 00:57:17 GregorR: No, i'm not that crazy. 01:06:04 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:34:15 -!- ab5tract has quit. 01:45:01 http://www.cafepress.com/bizarregeek.318713308 01:53:18 * pikhq wants one. :p 01:56:33 -!- ab5tract has joined. 02:02:43 pikhq: "There is no reason for anyone but Gregor to wear this." 02:03:50 Unless I want people to choose Gregor's hats? 02:03:51 :p 02:03:58 'struth. 02:31:04 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has joined. 02:32:15 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:34:39 -!- omniscient_idiot has joined. 02:36:10 -!- ab5tract has quit. 02:58:24 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 03:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 6, because the Ex normally means they had to add an extra parameter at some point. 05:17:25 -!- cherez has joined. 05:17:30 -!- cherez has left (?). 05:22:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:34:48 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:44:24 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("So, how much do you love noodles?"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:50:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:02:37 9438299 4-grams, but it hasn't finished doing whatever it's doing after that. I don't think it should be doing much else than writing things to file, though. 09:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | chr() arg not in range(256). 09:17:09 fizzie, check disk space.. 09:48:09 fizzie, hm? 09:50:42 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 10:10:42 -!- Mony has joined. 10:11:31 plop 10:29:48 Sorry, was building furniture. 10:29:58 Or maybe "assembling" is the correct word. 10:30:42 It has written just 40 megs of model.bin. 10:31:22 There it runs: 10:31:24 fis 11679 1.7 67.2 2367952 1385348 pts/10 D+ Oct17 13:30 ./buildlm 10:31:37 Quite a large process. 10:32:14 I'm thinking the whole N-gram tree is too big to fit in memory and it's so udderly slow thanks to all the swapping. 10:32:28 I wonder if I should just interrupt it; I'd like to get my web browser back. 10:57:01 Or maybe "assembling" is the correct word. <-- IKEA? 10:57:46 fizzie, do you use lots of std:: stuff in that C++ app? 10:57:54 Yes, to both of those questions. 10:57:59 normally they take a bit more memory 10:58:03 I know. 10:58:17 It was just convenient. 10:58:24 most of the time not an issue... but it seems to be here 10:58:37 would it be impossible to process it in chunks? 10:58:57 and try to keep locality of reference to prevent swapping in/out all the time 10:59:08 instead working on the data already in memory 10:59:43 Well, it's a big tree, 17581526 nodes. The per-node data structures are not very small either, even though they could be. 11:00:32 fizzie, any memory leaks? 11:00:56 I don't think there are, and in any case it just builds the tree and writes it to file; it's not deleting any nodes ever. 11:01:10 hm 11:01:23 fizzie, well making the data more compact could help indeed 11:01:43 making sure to organise structs to prevent holes and padding 11:01:58 Yes, I think I could cut memory consumption to a half without too much trouble. 11:02:28 (the tool pahole, made for the linux kernel originally, can help with that, it reads debug info and report badly organised structs) 11:03:50 (I have used it on cfunge to reduce the memory usage) 11:05:31 There's even some data duplication here, I have a std::map for children and a std::map for the word-counts, and for every non-leaf node both mappings have the same set of keys. The program is quite the memory hog, but really, I was more concerned in getting it to work at all than making it efficient. 11:05:48 ok 11:07:20 Must go to a birthday thing now. With any luck it has finished before I get back, and then I can postpone fixing that C++ code until the next time I have a large amount of data to feed to fungot. 11:07:21 fizzie: premature optimization etc. for now, we're on cleaner topics today. 11:07:36 Heh, that's even related. 11:07:36 hah 11:07:39 yeah 11:07:54 fizzie, idea: ALICE bot in befunge 11:07:56 or something like that 11:09:26 Currently fungot's babbling is a bit cheating-like; all the hard work is done by this supporting code, and it doesn't even keep any sort of data structures in funge-space, simply uses FILE's seek/read operations to navigate the resulting tree. 11:09:27 fizzie: is arizona fnord herbal tonic any good?) 11:10:12 fungot: Simply based on the name, I don't think I'd buy it. The "fnord" there is suspicious. 11:10:13 fizzie: the multiple values to bind, what parameters your procedures accept, and what some of the old lisp os's ( can't remember the last time i checked 11:15:04 The babble generation is pretty much: len = 0; while (1) { node = root; for (i = 1; i <= len; i++) { if (!node.children[text[len-i]]) { word = random_with_weights(node.words); break; } node = node.children[text[len-i]]; } text.append(word); len++; if (node.canstop && random_stoppage()) break; } 11:15:09 Very easy to do in Befunge. 11:15:11 Oh, the bus is going. -> 12:40:51 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 12:44:56 hi ais523 12:44:58 i read away messages 12:48:18 damn i want this http://www.cafepress.com/bizarregeek.11389675 and this http://www.cafepress.com/bizarregeek.255291006 12:48:22 except the former's colour scheme puts me off 13:22:43 hi ais523 too 13:24:03 he's not actually here 13:24:04 :| 13:26:24 ehird, hm one of the products in "Other items by Bizarre Geek:" there says "Original design by RodgerTheGreat, used with permission" 13:26:32 Yes, and? 13:26:34 GregorR runs that store. 13:26:38 ehird, ah 13:26:43 yes that was what I was about to ask 13:27:29 i'm going to make a book of pages and pages of cellular automata 13:27:32 i will title it the null string 13:28:47 I hate how folklore.org has not been updated since like 2004 and they still haven't added any other collections apart from the original macintosh one 13:28:53 >:( 13:48:26 -!- jix has joined. 13:48:46 the agme? 13:48:50 *game 13:48:52 yep, I just los it . 13:48:52 t 13:49:04 Fuck 13:49:09 Now I did too :( 13:50:40 http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/columns/ten_easy_ways_attract_women_your_free_software_project <- Jesus christ, this is a load of sexual bullshit just pandering to a bunch of idiotic stereotypes. 13:50:44 er 13:50:45 sexist bullshit 13:50:48 XD 13:50:55 lol freudian slip because all men think about is sex lol 13:52:11 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:53:27 ehird : That's because stereotypes are funny 13:53:45 Not very useful for serious advice though... 13:54:04 A top ten list is never serious, ehird 13:54:25 It could be "top ten most efficient sorting algorithm" and be a fucking joke 13:54:27 There's not much making it a top ten beyond the sections being labeled with numbers. 13:57:49 nargh... because of you i lost the game.... 13:58:06 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 13:58:20 :( 14:02:57 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers5/1220910895470.jpg 14:12:38 -!- kar8nga has joined. 14:12:48 so just put a regex ignore on that stuff if you care about it. I certainly don't. 14:16:38 AnMaster: That's not easy. 14:16:44 U l0st the g a e m 14:16:53 ehird, I can't read that language. What one is it? 14:16:56 aol? 14:17:13 Hm seems google translate can't handle AOL 14:17:14 With your sarcastic acknowledgement of it you obviously were able to extract the basic meaning and thus I still succeeded. 14:17:34 (Also, I'd advise you stop trying to be funny because you're really not very good at it. (Worse than I.)) 14:17:48 ehird, I can see French and guess it is French even though I can't understand it 14:18:04 AnMaster: That was very easily decodable to "U lost the gaem" then "You lose the game". 14:18:19 Of course, "Y o u l o s t t h e g a e m" would work too. 14:18:38 well you could probably make a bayesian filter 14:18:46 or something like that 14:29:01 AnMaster: Bayesian filters aren't very good at anything that isn't spam filtering. 14:30:05 hm 14:30:11 ehird, well it is kind of spam ;P 14:30:24 Not really. 14:30:31 It's junk, you might think, but it's not spam. 14:30:53 Either way, blocking "Y ou los t t he ga m e" without false positives is... difficult. 14:30:53 hm ok 14:31:07 ehird, sure, and also I don't care about that silly game. 14:31:35 fizzie, or ais523: any of you there? 14:31:36 so just put a regex ignore on that stuff if you care about it. I certainly don't. 14:31:43 AnMaster: Please learn to use /who. 14:31:51 ais523 is set as away when he is not there, rather appropriately. 14:31:56 ehird, well fizzie then? 14:32:05 Check idle time. 14:32:13 fizzie has been idle for 3 hours, so you could nickping him and see. 14:32:38 ehird, sometimes I idle a lot and I'm just doing other stuff but still notice a highlight on irc 14:32:47 Yes. 14:32:56 AnMaster: The point is... 14:33:03 If fizzie was idle for 20 hours, he's away. 14:33:06 If he's idle for 2 minutes, he's here. 14:33:08 If it's 3 hours, ask. 14:33:11 ehird, or just back. 14:33:12 :P 14:33:38 AnMaster: Not the point, you should still check before just uselessly nickpinging someone who possibly isn't even online to see it. 14:33:41 -!- oklocod has joined. 14:34:06 ehird, and this bothers you so? 14:34:11 *shrug* 14:34:32 Yes, because about half your lines is "ais523 there?" or "why isn't ais523 here". 14:34:36 s/is/are/ 14:37:12 -!- M0ny has joined. 14:38:00 ehird, what is the total set for that half? 14:38:21 What? 14:38:36 " Yes, because about half your lines is" 14:38:41 you mean something else I assume? 14:38:50 s/is/are/ 14:38:53 One. Message. After. 14:39:01 ehird, not that.... 14:39:14 "Yes, because about half your lines are "ais523 there?" or "why isn't ais523 here"." 14:39:16 Very simple. 14:39:43 $ grep -c '' /home/arvid/.xchat2/xchatlogs/FreeNode-#esoteric.log 14:39:43 2904 14:39:44 $ grep '' /home/arvid/.xchat2/xchatlogs/FreeNode-#esoteric.log | grep ais523 | grep there | wc -l 14:39:44 8 14:40:03 Ha ha ha ohh you take things literally! 14:40:05 and most of those are unrelated 14:40:07 okt 17 19:19:35 ais523, I added the security considerations there 14:40:09 So damn amusing. 14:40:09 for example 14:40:21 ehird, I decided to do that yes 14:40:27 since the statistics were incorrect 14:40:28 When will you get it in to your head that English is more than flat text? 14:40:46 maybe the day you start being funny? 14:40:54 afk, busy 14:40:56 I'm not trying to be funny. 14:41:14 And fuck this shit, I don't have time for a place that's just been consistently annoying ever since you showed up. 14:41:15 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:48:31 well he will be 1) log reading 2) be back soon 14:48:35 *shrug* 14:55:36 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ->++>+++>+>+>+++>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>++>+++>++>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>>+++>>+++>>>>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>>>+>+>>>+>+>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>++>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>+++>+>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>+++>+>>+++>>+++>>++[[>>+[>]++>++[<]<-]>+[>]<+<+++[<]<+]>+[>]++++>++[[<++++++++++++++++>-]<. 15:17:08 -!- GiveMeMony has joined. 15:17:18 hum..... 15:28:58 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 15:29:08 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:30:04 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 15:30:22 -!- GiveMeMony has changed nick to Mony. 15:35:32 -!- M0ny has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:40:23 -!- Slereah has joined. 15:40:27 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:46:23 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 15:46:23 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:49:58 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:51:47 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:04:41 ^bf ->++>+++>+>+>+++>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>++>+++>++>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>>+++>>+++>>>>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>>>+>+>>>+>+>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>++>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>+++>+>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>+++>+>>+++>>+++>>++[[>>+[>]++>++[<]<-]>+[>]<+<+++[<]<+]>+[>]++++>++[[<++++++++++++++++>-]< 16:04:41 Mismatched []. 16:04:47 hm... 16:04:57 so the thing in topic is cut off? 16:08:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:09:07 ^bf ->++>+++>+>+>+++>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>++>+++>++>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>>+++>>+++>>>>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>>>+>+>>>+>+>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>++>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>+++>+>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>+++>+>>+++>>+++>>++[[>>+[>]++>++[<]<-]>+[>]<+<+++[<]<+]>+[>]++++>++[[<++++++++++++++++>-]< 16:09:08 Mismatched []. 16:09:13 darn 16:10:55 ^bf ->++>+++>+>+>+++>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>++>+++>++>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>>+++>>+++>>>>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>>>+>+>>>+>+>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>++>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>+++>+>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>+++>+>>+++>>+++>>++[[>>+[>]++>++[<]<-]>+[>]<+<+++[<]<+]>+[>]++++>++ 16:11:02 ...out of time! 16:11:15 oh no printing commands 16:12:05 ^show ul 16:12:05 >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>] 16:12:06 ^bf +[] 16:12:13 ...out of time! 16:12:17 Onoes! 16:12:30 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 16:12:31 ! 16:12:55 ^bf +++++++. 16:13:01 Aw :( 16:13:51 +c censors that 16:14:15 +c? 16:14:20 channel option 16:14:30 Isn't it for colors? 16:14:43 anything annoying :D 16:15:12 i mean there wouldn't be much point censoring colors for being annoying if you didn't censor beeps 16:16:29 Does it censor anything from 000 to 031? 16:20:49 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 16:21:02 not 001 at least 16:21:04 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:21:09 because that's needed for actions 16:21:26 ^show 16:21:26 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp 16:21:36 ^ctcp ACTION waves 16:21:36 * fungot waves 16:21:42 ^show ctcp 16:21:42 +.,[.,]+. 16:22:21 000 may not be legal in irc at all, not sure 16:22:54 oh let me see 16:22:54 -!- Corun has joined. 16:23:04 ^bf ++[.+] 16:23:04 .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ... 16:23:33 the J and M fungot censors itself 16:23:33 oerjan: but it's not clear to me where we are permitted to apply a given rule that would give you 0(1) access. 16:24:51 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>++[.<.>+] 16:24:52 . . ! " # $ % & ' ( ) * + , - . / 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 : ; < = > ? @ A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z [ \ ] ^ _ ` a b c d e f g h i ... 16:25:57 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>++[.<.>+] 16:25:58 !!!!!!!!.!!!.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!"!#!$!%!&!'!(!)!*!+!,!-!.!/!0!1!2!3!4!5!6!7!8!9!:!;!!?!@!A!B!C!D!E!F!G!H!I!J!K!L!M!N!O!P!Q!R!S!T!U!V!W!X!Y!Z![!\!]!^!_!`!a!b!c!d!e!f!g!h!i ... 16:27:44 hm interesting one ! is missing between ^B and ^H 16:27:55 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>++[.<.+>+] 16:27:55 !"#$%&'(.)*+.,-./0123456789:;<=> ?!@"A#B$C%D&E'F(G)H*I+J,K-L.M/N0O1P2Q3R4S5T6U7V8W9X:Y;Z<[=\>]?^@_A`BaCbDcEdFeGfHgIhJiKjLkMlNmOnPoQpRqSrTsUtVuWvXwYxZy[z\{]|^}_~`abcdefghi ... 16:28:03 bah 16:28:21 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>++[.<.+>+] 16:28:22 1345678.9:;.<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMN O!P"Q#R$S%T&U'V(W)X*Y+Z,[-\.]/^0_1`2a3b4c5d6e7f8g9h:i;jm?n@oApBqCrDsEtFuGvHwIxJyKzL{M|N}O~PQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghi ... 16:28:37 aha 16:29:36 clearly some control codes actually work, and swallow part of the other input 16:30:46 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>++[.<.+>+] 16:30:46 0234567.89:.;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLM N!O"P#Q$R%S&T'U(V)W*X+Y,Z-[.\/]0^1_2`3a4b5c6d7e8f9g:h;il?m@nAoBpCqDrEsFtGuHvIwJxKyLzM{N|O}P~QRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghi ... 16:31:00 hey, there _are_ colors 16:31:15 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>++[.<.+>+] 16:31:15 /123456.789.:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKL M!N"O#P$Q%R&S'T(U)V*W+X,Y-Z.[/\0]1^2_3`4a5b6c7d8e9f:g;hk?l@mAnBoCpDqErFsGtHuIvJwKxLyMzN{O|P}Q~RSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghi ... 16:32:10 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:33:54 ^bf +++.,[.]!67testing 16:33:54 666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666 ... 16:34:05 ^bf +++.,[.,]!67testing 16:34:05 testing 16:34:30 ^bf ++++.,[.,]!67testing 16:34:30 67testing 16:35:01 that's the one 16:39:09 -!- Corun_ has joined. 16:47:50 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:04:23 o 17:04:31 oko 17:04:50 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol. 17:04:55 okokokokokokokokoko 17:05:08 * oerjan swats oklopol ----### 17:05:38 oeoeoeoeoeo 17:05:47 ayiayiayi 17:06:00 ^ul 17:06:03 hm? 17:06:07 ^ul what? 17:06:11 ^bf help 17:06:14 ^help 17:06:14 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 17:06:17 ^show 17:06:18 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp 17:06:26 what should ^ul do? 17:06:47 it's an underload interpreter 17:06:59 ^ul (AB)S 17:07:02 AB 17:07:11 ^ul (ABABABABABAB)S 17:07:18 ...out of time! 17:07:27 still the brainfuck version i see 17:07:31 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:07:40 ah 17:27:41 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:27:41 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:28:19 -!- SimonRC_ has changed nick to SimonC. 17:28:28 -!- SimonC has changed nick to SimonRC. 17:28:50 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:28:51 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:37:08 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:37:08 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:42:43 my silly shared web hosting doesn't let me use a www.www. subdomain because of their rubbish control panel :( 17:43:16 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:43:51 D-8 17:44:05 Asztal: I had to sort of trick cpanel to convince it I wanted www.www. 17:44:16 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:46:51 and why do you want that? 17:47:58 hmm, I could probably create w.w.w.w.w.w.domain >_> 17:50:01 SimonRC: http://www.www.extra-www.org/ 17:50:17 Asztal: Is their stupid control panel cPanel? 17:50:31 no, it's "dream"host 17:50:46 Ah. 17:52:39 any attempt to create hosting for a domain or subdomain starting with "www" is met with "we set this sub-domain up automatically for you." :( 17:53:26 s/domain or // 17:54:40 You should email them. 17:55:01 "How DARE you refuse my www's! What are you, some WORLD-WIDE-WEB HATER?!" 17:57:59 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:58:39 -!- ehird has joined. 17:58:47 tim berners-lee replied to my email :o 18:00:02 ehird: about what,; saying what? 18:00:21 SimonRC: dates in URI structure 18:00:34 (as a question about "Cool URIs don't change") 18:00:57 ok 18:01:02 i was asking about "continuous" pages, in that e.g. a news page about foos still being updated today would be odd to be placed at /1998/foos-news 18:01:12 he basically replied saying that it's okay :-P 18:01:41 nothing interesting, then. 18:01:58 How about URI's like www.www.my-site.com/... 18:02:01 Are those OK? :P 18:02:07 GregorR: Yes. 18:02:11 In fact, here is a direct quote: 18:02:13 Asztal, no-www! 18:02:27 ... why did you nickping Asztal for no reason. 18:02:35 AnMaster: no-no-www! 18:02:43 www.www.extra-www.org bitches 18:03:00 ehird: Asztal was trying to create a www.www. domain, but the server's control panel barfed :P 18:03:00 well I disagree 18:03:03 GregorR: [[I would like to reccomend adding an extra "www." to the start of all your URIs. This should eliminate any date problems with your display of web patriotism. -Tim]] 18:03:05 ... why did you nickping Asztal for no reason. 18:03:07 for a good reason 18:03:11 read log 18:03:21 AnMaster: http://www.www.extra-www.org/. 18:03:26 ehird, and I disagree 18:03:32 You can't "disagree" with a joke. 18:03:33 WELL THEN YOU HATE THE WEB. 18:03:46 ehird, of course I know it is a joke 18:03:53 ("Disagreeing" with a joke is commonly referred to as "having no sense of humour", which I'd say observation has proved to be quite true.) 18:04:12 ehird: That quote makes no sense :P 18:04:23 GregorR: WELL IT'S WHAT HE SAID 18:04:33 ehird: Oh I believe you! 18:04:42 ehird, I think it is a good joke. I don't think anyone except the actual extra-www website should use it 18:04:54 (Having read Weaving the Web, I would expect that he considers today's web to be Web 0.2, at best.) 18:04:59 ehird: But only due to my strong conviction for self-delusion do I believe you. 18:05:03 SimonRC: the semweb stuff is neato. 18:05:09 SimonRC, "he"? 18:05:10 who? 18:05:15 AnMaster: TimBL 18:05:17 ah 18:05:36 -- to reply to an earlier comment, AnMaster: Yes, because in your world humour is confined into rigid boxes marked "humour" and should not intefere with anything outside of the box. 18:05:54 (Howwever, with all thi user-generated content, we are getting there, despite being rather short on the ""semantic" side.) 18:05:56 ehird, which earlier comment 18:05:56 ? 18:06:00 Humour sucks, humor is much funnier. 18:06:06 ehird, I think it is a good joke. I don't think anyone except the actual extra-www website should use it 18:06:06 yuk, hate editing over a crap connection 18:06:11 la. 18:06:18 There is nothing wrong with a website letting you go to www.www.foo.com, as that is amusing in the vain of www.www.extra-www.org. 18:06:31 ehird, basically I use no-www myself :P 18:06:32 GregorR: no, homor sucks, and homours is funnoier 18:06:34 oh and another thing 18:06:41 There is nothing harmed by humour spilling slightly over from the box called humour into something else. 18:06:48 If things were like that, then this'd be a pretty darn boring place, on account of not existing. 18:06:57 due to the success of no-www you should create www.www.www.extra-extra-www.org 18:06:59 :P 18:07:09 I don't see how that actually adds to the humour. 18:07:17 * SimonRC fails at typing 18:07:22 ehird, you lack humor then indeed. 18:07:25 GregorR: I love how you use obscure TLDs for the links 18:07:41 ehird, or rather: Humor is highly subjective 18:07:44 AnMaster: No, I just have standards. (One element is that it has to be funny.) 18:07:59 ehird, humor is always highly subjective 18:08:10 sure people share parts 18:08:36 but you can't assume any set of "this this is humor" is better than any other 18:08:38 We'll have none of that smutty talk in #esoteric, please. 18:08:45 hah. 18:09:09 whatever you do, don't spill hummus 18:09:29 oerjan: That's going to be hard to avoid when sharing parts. 18:09:42 Yeah, but you bet they'll have a cover story. "I was just being modular!" 18:10:13 AnMaster: we should demand a www top level domain 18:10:24 oerjan, heh. 18:10:30 oerjan: brilliant 18:10:37 www.www.www.www.www 18:10:39 * AnMaster agrees with ehird there 18:10:50 ww as a TLD? 18:10:51 (the www.www.www. subdomain of the www.www domain) 18:10:58 oerjan, but ICANN will ask a lot of money sadly :/ 18:11:01 It's extra-www compliant, ON BOTH SIDES. 18:11:07 ehird, :) 18:11:14 BOTH SIDES 18:11:32 darn capitalists 18:11:39 oerjan, yeah... 18:11:42 bah, domains are backwards anyway 18:11:54 SimonRC: you silly UK people 18:12:13 they should hav been big-endian, like oterh types of paths 18:12:44 clearly europeans and americans should use big-endian paths, while japanese should use little-endian ones 18:12:51 and email addresses should be big-endian too 18:12:59 oerjan, Americans should use mixed-endian 18:13:05 oerjan: huh? why? 18:13:17 SimonRC: linguistics 18:13:28 oerjan, just look at the American date format. 18:13:35 no no no 18:13:40 native americans should use little-endian 18:13:44 http://instantrimshot.com/ 18:13:45 so it should be. google.www.com 18:13:48 or should I say 18:13:53 http://com.instantrimshot/ 18:14:31 hm no 18:14:31 European date format isn't mixed-endian, but it's still backwards. 18:14:36 consider English 18:14:46 "The instantrimshot of the com" 18:14:52 also 18:14:57 uris are pretty much perfect 18:14:57 beacuse 18:15:01 the fact that it's foobar 18:15:09 is more important to a person than the fact that it's a company called foobar 18:15:17 SimonRC: also, chinese and indonesians should use single token addresses 18:15:17 or a nonprofit called foobar 18:15:17 etc 18:18:24 oerjan, why did you mention linguistics? :D 18:19:20 psygnisfive: clearly europeans and americans should use big-endian paths, while japanese should use little-endian ones 18:19:32 ah 18:19:39 i dont follow why this should be the case tho 18:19:48 word order? 18:20:00 but the word orders aren't exactly mirrors of one another 18:20:08 it was a joke, btw, so if you disagree with it i'll sic ehird on you :D 18:20:23 Japanese is SOV while european languages are SVO for the most part 18:20:32 celtic languages are VSO 18:20:35 (see recent discussion for that too) 18:20:38 psygnisfive's rigid joke standards strike again 18:21:00 and spanish and italian can occasionally get OVS, which IS the exact opposite of english. 18:21:04 psygnisfive: i think you are now officially without a sense of humor 18:21:25 i laugh at big bang theory. :| 18:21:26 well so can other germanic languages 18:21:34 well yes 18:21:38 germany languages have V2 word order 18:21:53 so they can get any word order with the verb second 18:21:58 PP-V 18:22:00 S-V 18:22:02 O-V 18:22:06 Adv-V 18:22:33 german can only do it in main clauses, interestingly, while yiddish and danish, i believe, can do it in subordinate clauses 18:22:49 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:23:38 psygnisfive: also i was not considering the entire word order, only general mostly head-final vs. mostly head-initial 18:24:07 well japanese is indeed uniformly head-final, except with the case of demonstratives, which might tell us something about demonstratives 18:24:22 but english and other SVO languages tend not to be head initial, even mostly. 18:24:25 they're sort of half-half 18:24:56 in a technical sense, the difference is that japanese is almost uniformly Specifier-Complement-Head word order, with English being Specifier-Head-Complement 18:25:11 so i guess with regards to Head-Complement ordering you're correct 18:25:30 hm what about romance languages? 18:25:41 romance languages are also usually S-H-C 18:25:48 they frequently put adjectives last 18:25:54 indeed they do 18:26:01 but adjectives are adjuncts 18:26:03 not specs or comps 18:26:10 and adjunct ordering tends to be fairly arbitrary 18:26:25 the trend, infact, is that languages with V-O word order tend to also have N-Adj word order 18:26:40 which makes germanic languages rather unusual in that regard 18:27:03 what's a complement then? prepositional clauses and the like? 18:27:08 nuh 18:27:30 basically, the idea of Specs and Complements in minimalism is like so: 18:28:31 you have some operation called merge that takes two things and sticks them together in a bundle 18:28:32 i think old norse put adjectives last somewhat more frequently 18:28:35 Hungarian has free word order too... Quite a source of confusion (initially, anyway) combined with dropping pronouns and the 3rd person "is/are". :( 18:28:44 and this bundle has some distinguished member called the Head 18:29:01 the first member merged with a head is called the complement 18:29:09 the last is called the complement 18:29:19 er wait 18:29:25 so you have something like this: [Spec [Head Complement]] 18:30:17 its essentially a theory-internal matter. complements are sisters-to-heads, specifiers are daughters-to-the-final-phrase 18:32:14 i know its kind of confusing. like i said, its kind of theory internal 18:33:05 another way to look at it is like this: 18:33:23 heads seem to be able to put restrictions on their complements, but not on their specifiers. 18:35:12 can you give an example of a nominal phrase with both spec and complement? 18:35:35 nouns generally dont take complements, but sure 18:35:56 ah that explains why i felt it didn't fit 18:36:00 well.. nominal phrases also don't seem to be headed by a noun.. :p 18:36:15 what? 18:36:27 yeah, it seems weird, but its apparently correct 18:36:27 this theory is getting less intuitive all the time 18:36:28 but 18:36:46 yes, well, intuition never did make sense in science :) 18:36:53 but i can give you a full nominal phrase that has multiple specs and complements 18:37:01 ok 18:37:06 first i suggest you open this page: http://ironcreek.net/phpsyntaxtree/? 18:37:14 and draw this tree: [XP Spec [X' [X] [Comp]]] 18:37:32 since that'll give you a nice clear visual template for what specs and comps are 18:37:58 ok 18:38:40 (done btw) 18:39:40 [DP [DP John] [D' [D 's] [NP [N student] [PP [P of] [DP linguistics]]]]] 18:39:45 draw that 18:40:21 the thing labeled [D 's] is the head of the main DP, as you can see by the projections of D above it: D->D'->DP 18:40:52 [DP John], to the left of D', is the specifier of [D 's] because it's the last thing to join up before the main DP 18:41:19 [NP student of linguistics] is the complement to [D 's], because its the first item that joins up with [D 's] 18:41:32 are you saying "'s" is the head of that phrase? O_O 18:41:42 it seems to be the case :p 18:41:53 but dont think of heads as being what the phrase is about 18:42:09 think of heads as more like functions in function applications 18:42:20 and infact, when we say it like that, it sounds completely correct right? 18:42:25 Functions in Function-Applications 18:42:39 Function-Applications are like Determiner-Phrases 18:42:47 the Function-Application is about the function, is it? 18:42:51 oh like 's is an operator 18:42:59 no. and a Determiner-Phrase is not about the determiner 18:43:34 if anything, a Noun Phrase isn't about a noun, either 18:43:43 the whole nominal phrase is about something in the WORLD 18:43:47 like.. a person, or a substance, or an event 18:44:01 the words themselves are just things that describe that referent, even nouns. 18:44:07 so anyway 18:44:27 [PP of lx] is the complement to [N student] because its the first thing that joins with [N student] 18:44:46 it _does_ seem weird to consider the complement to be the _first_ thing joined though, since "'s student of linguistics" does not have meaning alone 18:44:48 yawn 18:44:50 and [DP linguistics] is the complement to [P of] for similar reasons 18:45:06 oerjan: we're thinking in bottom up building of the sentence 18:45:17 but yes, you're right that ['s ...] has no meaning by itself 18:45:20 atleast no complete meaning 18:45:22 but so what? 18:45:26 this isnt about meaning 18:45:28 its about structure 18:45:32 :P 18:47:54 otoh why isn't "of" the head of "student of linguistics"? 18:48:18 because of is a preposition and so heads a preposition phrase 18:48:24 "student of linguistics" isnt a preposition phrase 18:48:33 further more, you don't /need/ the preposition phrase 18:48:50 but thats getting into more weird shit that complicates things 18:48:54 but 's tails a possessive phrase, so they seem analogous just reversed 18:48:54 selectional requirements, etc. 18:49:05 sure, but "John's" /is/ completely acceptable. 18:49:07 (making up terms here) 18:49:23 you dont need the noun-phrase that follows. 18:49:25 furthermore 18:49:31 you have D's like "that" 18:49:36 "that dog" <> "that" 18:50:19 but like i said, now we're getting into more complicated shit 18:50:31 yawn 18:50:53 ok i think that's about enough 18:50:57 yeah. 18:51:01 :p 18:57:25 Hah-hah, something like 24 hours of computation, resulting in: "terminate called after throwing an instance of 'char const*'" 18:57:38 awesome 18:57:41 shame you can't like 18:57:48 save state up to that point, go in and fix the code 18:57:53 and then start from there on 18:58:04 thats probably possible in smalltalk. 18:58:12 it is 18:58:18 fizzie: run it on a cluster next time :P 18:59:08 Yes, and I think I'll just use a bit less of them input. 19:00:34 The problem is probably because I use four-"byte" integers which use 7-bit bytes (because it's unspecified whether FILE's "read characters" instruction does sign-extension or not for values >= 128), so there's a limit of 2^(4*7) = 2^28 = ~270 million for some things like file offsets. 19:00:47 The IRC-built language model file is already 200 megs, this one was probably bit too much. 19:02:31 Maybe I'll just use something like a thousand ten-minute conversations instead of six thousand. 19:03:34 for those automated conversation bots people: http://www.mezzacotta.net/ 19:03:44 i hate those conversation bots 19:03:49 especially the ones for the loebner prize 19:03:59 everyone thinks the loebner prize is a real turing test 19:04:03 its fucking not. 19:04:05 i was thinking of fungot and optbot here... 19:04:05 oerjan: how goes cfunge stuff? 19:04:05 oerjan: later tell jonnay riastradh also, in the transformation process.) 19:04:05 not by a long shot. 19:05:54 psygnisfive: well that link is even more half-baked, as you might guess 19:06:50 :p 19:07:42 but there's an impressive archive ;D 19:11:54 -!- cherez has joined. 19:12:03 -!- cherez has left (?). 19:17:21 oh 19:17:22 also 19:17:28 someone said something about hungarian free word order 19:17:31 its not entirely free. :) 19:17:42 topic before main verb, iirc 19:17:47 or was that focus 19:18:06 WH phrases in questions front, obligatorially 19:18:28 and adpositions have well defined positions relative to their modifier phrases 19:18:42 modified* 19:18:47 i'd also bet that relative clauses and adjectives and such have to be in specific places too. 19:19:05 and i'd also wager that the free word order isn't free at all, but rather, pragmatically determined. 19:19:17 i do recall adjectives being in front of nouns 19:20:58 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:22:21 Okay, fungot, try speaking like you're having a telephone conversation. 19:22:21 fizzie: ( ( noise noise uh-hum)) 19:22:38 fungot: Okay, that's not quite what I had in mind... 19:22:38 fizzie: on my earphones and ah that's 19:22:41 that's some really bad phone 19:24:14 fungot: Sounds like someone interrupted you. 19:24:14 fizzie: they're doing a survey on how people feel about it laughter 19:24:41 There's a lot of things like "[laughter]" in those transcriptions, and fungot just discards []s. 19:24:41 fizzie: he's got to)) 19:24:58 I don't remember what the double-parentheses notation meant. 19:25:56 That's still not as good as the IRC logs, meh. 19:26:25 fungot: do you feel smarter now? 19:26:25 Deewiant: ah that's a hobby 19:26:52 fungot: well, I'm glad you're making the attempt, at least 19:26:52 Deewiant: you know unless ah one it seems like 19:27:29 fungot: ... even though you're not really succeeding. 19:27:29 Deewiant: i have a four year old twins 19:27:52 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:28:16 fungot: well, it can't be yours, you're not that old yourself 19:28:16 Deewiant: this so that's how i learned so 19:28:41 fungot: Are you telling me you wrote two other befunge bots, or what? 19:28:41 fizzie: topic is so mind boggling and i i really 19:28:42 * SimonRC goes to get breakfast. 19:29:46 I think fungot's finally losing it 19:29:47 Deewiant: yeah yeah true)) don't think that's 19:30:35 Deewiant: well with four year old twins life can be quite stressful 19:30:48 oerjan: especially when you're not that old yourself 19:31:21 depends how you reckon. how many human years in a bot year? 19:32:22 well, I figure the twins must be bots too 19:34:16 Yes, but fungot might well be a old, old fart in bot years. 19:34:16 fizzie: i mean they my kids came up i said okay this is my 19:34:44 fungot: perhaps you've got botheimer's? 19:34:44 oerjan: right and shaping the minds of the future 19:35:02 fungot: that's scary 19:35:02 oerjan: you try to make um there's a lot 19:37:00 fungot: A lot of what? 19:37:00 fizzie: ( ( so uh it's one of those 19:38:16 Can't say this telephone conversation experiment has been very successful, though we did learn that fungot has kids. 19:38:16 fizzie: and it's a great tool 19:56:52 adopted kids, at that 19:57:20 fungot: how did you trick them into letting you adopt? 19:57:20 Asztal: ( ( lipsmack well what a wonderful thing 19:58:07 i don't see where it was mentioned they were adopted 20:02:52 Deewiant: i have a four year old twins 20:02:52 Asztal: hi how you doing 20:02:53 fungot: well, it can't be yours, you're not that old yourself 20:02:54 Asztal: where are from actually i 20:03:28 fungot: I'm from England. Do continue... 20:03:28 Asztal: and do you see what i'm saying 20:04:09 They could be simply stolen instead of adopted. Have you been participating in an illegal baby-smuggling operation, fungot? (As opposed to all the *legal* baby-smuggling, I guess.) 20:04:09 fizzie: you know if they 20:07:46 fungot seems to have a problem with not finishing its 20:07:46 Asztal: ( ( yeah so am i)) don't think that's right 20:28:51 hm 20:29:09 fizzie, what word list is that? 20:30:40 It's that Fisher "conversational telephone speech" corpus I was talking about. 20:30:48 Except that it's only one sixth of it, due to problems. 20:52:21 -!- Corun_ has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 20:56:49 back 20:56:51 fungot: hi 20:56:52 ehird: in a theater or watching a movie 20:56:55 fungot: nope 20:56:55 ehird: are you which part 20:56:58 fungot: nope 20:56:58 ehird: that's what she does and she emails but 20:57:06 fizzie: make it feed the input sentence into the markov chain 20:57:06 :P 20:57:11 ooh idea 20:57:18 make the phrase put in the first word 20:57:22 then cut off the first word at the end 20:57:23 fact-maker! 20:57:33 "the scheme programming language" "... is awesome" 20:59:59 i suddenly envision loading fungot with a telemarketing corpus for that 20:59:59 oerjan: yeah and understandably because of our policies but 21:03:56 ehird: I'd need to convert text to tokens in the Funge code for that. 21:04:10 fizzie: Just shell out to the c++ :P 21:04:16 That's cheating! 21:04:29 Yes, but. 21:05:33 Away now. 21:05:59 Psht. 21:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | There is none.. 21:07:29 There's no psht? 21:07:36 fungot, hm? 21:07:36 AnMaster: yeah i would 21:07:41 fungot, would what? 21:07:41 AnMaster: ( ( you know um certainly in the younger grades i think they 21:07:49 fizzie, what's with those (( ? 21:08:06 fungot, you seem to "um" a lot? 21:08:06 AnMaster: yeah i used to 21:08:16 fungot, So you stopped now? 21:08:16 AnMaster: ( ( noise noise noise noise noise 21:08:19 heh 21:09:26 ehird, you heard what optbot said 21:09:26 AnMaster: But some clients freak out when they recieve notices. 21:09:42 optbot: You make more sense than fungot. 21:09:43 ehird: most of us even want to be at that before we were even thought of 21:09:43 ehird: Its not one step. He uses a for loop. 21:09:43 optbot, what? Sounds like bad clients to me 21:09:44 AnMaster: "what is do im half\nmarkov" 21:09:56 ehird, it would do... Since it uses plain quotes 21:12:09 -!- atrapado has joined. 21:13:34 they're like duals, order and chaos 21:14:08 optbot: be confusing 21:14:08 ehird: The language with only one instruction. 21:14:12 optbot: be confusing some more 21:14:12 ehird: # 2 21:14:18 oerjan: not really. 21:25:50 optbot, 3! 21:25:51 AnMaster: By the way, if you understood that.... 21:25:56 optbot, Yes? 21:25:56 AnMaster: Hmm. 21:26:04 optbot, Hmm what? 21:26:04 AnMaster: how does c++ do abstract classes 21:26:57 optbot, Using some sort of pointer table for virtual functions in general I believe, so I guess the same way... But I'm hardly an expert on that. 21:26:58 AnMaster: OH 21:27:05 optbot, that explained it? 21:27:06 AnMaster: install.sh 21:27:16 optbot, You certainly like changing topic a lot... 21:27:16 AnMaster: oh god 21:27:22 optbot, what happened!? 21:27:22 AnMaster: I actually need to upload my latest plof2js 21:27:29 plof2js?! 21:27:33 that sounds like GregorR... 21:27:37 I think? 21:36:21 yes 21:39:24 AnMaster: It's some sort of notation in the transcriptions. 21:40:04 I'm not sure where they put the documentation (as opposed to the raw data) of the thing, so I can't check what it meant. 21:41:32 oh ok 21:41:40 fizzie, does the license allow this? 21:42:13 fizzie, also you may be interesting to know that ATHR is progressing nicely, still a lot to do to get it done, but I already managed several points on the road map 21:42:30 (combined roadmap/todo/design/ideas) 21:43:04 I think it allows just about anything we care to use it for, as long as we don't distribute the stuff. A couple of messed-up quotations is not really copying; OTOH IANAL, so I probably won't leave it up. 21:43:25 fizzie, http://rafb.net/p/GMoXXJ83.html 21:43:32 "Portions of speech where the transcriber could not be sure exactly what was said were marked with double parentheses -- " (( ... )) " -- and the transcriber could hazard a guess as to what was said, or leave the region between parentheses blank." 21:44:11 fizzie, the "noise" one? 21:44:20 Anywhere where's there ((s. 21:44:23 heh 21:44:31 fizzie, are there a lot of those? 21:44:41 All kinds of "uh mm" type utterances. 21:45:10 The noise one was probably (( [noise] )) or something, fungot just throws the []s out. 21:45:10 fizzie: so has your life changed much since september eleventh 21:45:40 fungot: Not to sound insensitive, but not really. 21:45:40 fizzie: some car with that 21:46:29 There are 40 topics they had people discuss, let's see what kind of selection the bot got. 21:48:47 Quite wide, actually; topics from 12 to 29 occur in those files I used. 21:50:21 night 21:55:28 fungot: 9/11 was an inside job WAKE UP SHEEPLE 21:55:28 ehird: what are we going to reach the top i just drew a straight line 21:55:35 fungot: ... you did 9/11? 21:55:35 ehird: in other words i suppose 21:55:40 fungot: wow. :\ 21:55:40 ehird: oh really that would be 21:55:48 fungot: no that's not ok man, not cool >:( 21:55:48 ehird: but er i'm in a 21:55:55 fungot: DON'T DODGE THE ISSUE 21:56:01 ... 21:56:02 XD 21:56:14 fizzie: I broke it. 21:56:29 It's just the ignore mode, I think. 21:57:22 fizzie: Oh. Darn. 21:57:26 fungot: Considering that you were "born" not too long ago, how come you're responsible for the 9/11 thing? You used TRDS to time travel or something? 21:57:27 fizzie: yeah you find less opportunities to uh 21:58:02 fungot: bot babies 21:58:02 ehird: oh i had mine on my shoulder ' cause um 21:58:11 fungot: be careful with them, you might drop em 21:58:12 ehird: and uh uh mn)) 21:58:18 fungot: DON'T DODGE ISSUES 21:58:18 ehird: ( ( well)) 21:58:22 fungot: STOPPIT 21:58:22 ehird: but you know you could do 21:58:26 fungot: >:E 21:58:58 fungot's so contemptuous. 21:58:59 fizzie: so um yeah and then the second one was a good thing to have 22:08:11 . 22:09:03 There's not really any punctuation in the transcripts, so fungot doesn't do it either. 22:09:03 fizzie: yeah um it's cough 22:09:32 It's all like "my dad has thirteen brothers and sisters you know family can be all different kinds of things it can be friends it can be people you work with if you're close i guess it's all the" 22:13:32 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 23:20:23 -!- Mony has quit ("Ne regrettons pas le passé, ne nous préoccupons pas de l'avenir : le sage vit dans le présent."). 23:36:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 2008-10-19: 00:10:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:16:06 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 00:54:33 -!- Slereah has joined. 00:54:38 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:29:58 -!- ryanakca has joined. 01:30:25 I suppose the sysadmins know that the wiki is kaput? 01:47:13 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 03:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ^x x. 03:36:07 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 05:20:25 http://www.peta.org/Sea_Kittens/index.asp 05:20:28 save the sea kittens 05:20:29 !!! 05:28:34 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:38:59 Wow, that's retarded. 05:39:07 That's so retarded it makes me want to go eat fish, and I don't even like fish. 05:40:03 Yeah, fish is nasty 06:32:58 So retarded that it reminds me of people getting turned into monkeeys. 06:34:16 (Cowboy Bebop episode) 06:43:26 -!- hando has joined. 06:43:35 hello 06:43:43 what's wrong with esolangs wiki? 07:11:36 Lurve how people only come to this channel if the wiki is borked :P 07:12:01 hando: Well, the problem is that it's borkleborked, and we don't have our deborklarizing ray warmed up yet (it runs on tubes y'know) 07:12:51 real17m42.983s 07:12:52 user17m18.653s 07:12:54 sys0m1.716s 07:13:06 I think I need to tweak this slightly... 07:13:24 Depends on what your'e doing with those 17 minutes. 07:13:28 I think it's O(n^3 * m^3) now 07:13:36 not a bloody lot :( 07:13:46 That's /probably/ a bad running time :P 07:15:32 it takes every distinct triple from a list of ~1000 strings and finds the longest (longest common substring of the triple), which is really... probably not the right way to go about it 07:15:59 so that's 1e9/6 triples :D 07:16:48 but that 17 minutes figure was with only 140 strings (they're IRC messages, so, not long strings) and it hadn't even finished yet 07:24:00 it kind of works, though... it generates " retarded" given the most recent messages :) 07:29:18 GregorR: long time no see 07:49:26 So.. graue runs the wiki, but he's not there, so the wiki keeps being broken? 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:48:30 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:49:22 * oerjan wonders why spammers send him email in german 08:49:39 i mean, if it was random - but i cannot recall any french, say 08:56:12 hando: that looks broken indeed. and graue is very rarely here. 08:57:06 I wasn't even aware that there was a 'graue' person... 08:57:14 And I've been here regularly for 2 years. 08:57:26 oh i've seen him 08:58:02 he's pretty rarely on the wiki too, when i think about it. but for minor problems there are several admins 08:58:16 but i guess only graue can handle a real crash 08:59:06 * oerjan doesn't know as he is not a wiki admin 08:59:50 ais523 is one, but he is away, which means not logged in as he and ehird share an irc bouncer 09:00:55 also, sunday morning is about _the_ slowest time on this channel 09:03:41 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 09:03:43 HIYA 09:03:59 good moaning 09:04:00 * oklopol is memorizing processor designs 09:05:05 some day in the far future your memory will be _full_, and you will start regretting it. just before you descend into senility. 09:06:54 doesn't seem too far-fetched, i'm already starting to forget english vocabulary at an alarming rate. 09:07:03 eek 09:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | err. 09:07:21 even optbot is shocked 09:07:22 oerjan: I was going to tell him something! 09:07:35 optbot: well speak out 09:07:36 oerjan: near* 09:07:54 for instance, took me about a minute to find the word far-fetched, a word i've known since i was -1 09:08:47 but, usually when i take a break from reading, the words come back, and all the new data stays too 09:09:04 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 09:09:08 well don't mind me, i cannot even think and chew at the same time 09:09:17 as in, i just bit myself in the mouth 09:10:26 also processor designs aren't that hard to memorize, i know the mips instruction set by heart, and i know exactly how it's translated to opcodes, so all i have to do it traverse the set of operations, and check what lines and registers i need 09:10:26 also, okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 09:11:11 the hard part is i have a hard time letting myself draw the lines in slightly different shapes than the ones in the book 09:11:19 * oerjan suddenly wonders if there's a wickedpedia 09:11:37 functionally equivalent, but the exam checker will see i don't have a photographic memory 09:11:42 and he will laugh 09:11:50 and probably spit on my paper 09:11:52 in disgust 09:12:02 apparently there is 09:12:08 :P 09:12:56 it's about disney villains? 09:14:01 (although there is also a wickedpedia.no, which is about erotica) 09:15:32 and people apparently use it as a slur against wikipedia itself. oh well. 09:17:01 there probably is a secret wickedpedia used just by exam checkers, you know 09:20:54 are they wicked? 09:27:50 Wicked morning. I mean, good. 09:29:49 oh noes, fizzie is an exam checker! 09:53:41 -!- oerjan has quit ("Sniffle"). 09:59:06 hm 09:59:49 morning 10:03:31 -!- Mony has joined. 10:04:31 plop 10:14:49 o 10:20:59 o 10:24:52 -!- kar8nga has joined. 10:28:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:01:05 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:25:21 fizzie, there still? 11:26:58 Would saying something like "If a ATHR thread causes an internal crash in the interpreter, it shall if possible not crash other threads." be a good idea? 11:26:59 Partially. Trying to eat some breakfast. 11:27:35 I can semi-guarantee that in my implementation. Only thing would be if I hit some internal erlang bug or cause a cascading crash. 11:28:15 but for example if I had a bug in some fingerprint crashing division by zero it would get logged but not affect other threads. 11:28:28 Or would that be hard to implement in most other languages? 11:28:37 hi ehird 11:28:42 hi ais523 11:28:58 hi AnMaster 11:29:01 can't be here long 11:29:10 this Internet connection is really dodgy, too 11:29:19 a while ago it was only giving me one second of connectivity before breaking 11:29:24 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/AQQhs539.html 11:29:32 also, both my main email and backup email are down at the moment 11:29:35 which is annoying 11:29:38 ais523, but I assume you will be back later today? 11:30:05 probably not 11:30:07 it's Sunday 11:30:13 I will probably be back tomorrow though 11:30:13 ais523, well see that link now then 11:30:22 I have skimmed it 11:30:29 very quickly 11:30:35 what in particular should I be looking at? 11:30:37 ais523, and see scrollback for the last few lines before you said hi 11:30:49 ais523, that ATHR implementation is making progress :) 11:31:55 ais523, poke? 11:31:55 It's not hard to implement if you only say "if possible". 11:32:06 fizzie: things can be possible and still difficult 11:32:09 ais523: anything you can do about the wiki or are we just going to have to wait for graue? 11:32:18 oerjan: what in particular needs doing? 11:32:18 ais523: Well, it's also a SHOULD, not a MUST. 11:32:22 I can do a lot but not everything 11:32:30 it's crashed, basically 11:32:37 I can't fix that... 11:32:41 fizzie, ah. Hm also I need a function to give back thread id, may not be useful in ATHR on it's own, but could potentially in future fingerprints extending ATHR 11:32:56 generally speaking Graue fixes it within a day if you email them, though 11:33:35 hmm... same error as last time 11:33:35 "from within function "MediaWikiBagOStuff::_doquery". MySQL returned error "1194: Table 'mw_objectcache' is marked as crashed and should be repaired" 11:33:36 ouch 11:33:39 really ouch 11:33:40 i don't have his (their?) email 11:33:52 I know the fix, but it requires MySQL root access on the server the wiki's running on 11:33:53 so I can't do it 11:34:07 oerjan: well, with a name like Catatonic Porpoise, the gender isn't obvious 11:34:12 ais523, which is why you use postgre instead of mysql 11:34:35 you can say that. i had forgotten that nickname. 11:34:37 ais523, since postgre seems to be less messy on crash in my experience 11:36:00 graue@oceanbase.org, anyway 11:39:59 can anyone hear me? 11:40:15 * oerjan is hearing (and mailing) 11:40:24 hm 11:40:24 -!- oklocod has joined. 11:40:28 ais523, no I can't 11:41:26 fizzie, ais523: Should F (flush signal queue) return any messages that were flushed? 11:41:53 like count at the top of the stack, followed by that number of signals that were in the queue 11:42:00 or should it just discard them all? 11:45:26 I think it should return them 11:47:30 ais523, fizzie: http://rafb.net/p/PB3f2o65.html 12:00:19 -!- Corun_ has joined. 12:01:23 ais523, fizzie: I think it may be quite possible to do hot code change of parts of efunge without stopping :D 12:01:29 not that anyone would ever want it 12:01:37 in fact I did that on the input server just now 12:01:50 I don't have a very specific opinion on F returning the signals; the name "flush" doesn't really sound like it'd return them. But since you can just use "k$" to get rid of them values, it doesn't really hurt. 12:02:16 indeed, and it can be useful to get them 12:02:24 hmm... figuring out how to hot-change parts of a Feather program while it's running is a major problem 12:02:52 ais523, oh? Well I could potentially hot-change _any_ part of efunge. 12:03:00 AnMaster: well erlang is known for being able to do that... 12:03:11 actually the ets tables may cause a tiny amount of issues there 12:03:26 oerjan, true, but you need to be careful with your design for it to work in erlang too 12:03:50 following the otp design principles 12:04:01 (sp?) 12:04:15 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:04:50 there is something called Erlang/OTP, so must be right 12:05:54 oerjan, no I mean "principles" 12:05:59 if that was the correct spelling 12:06:03 sounds right too 12:06:05 I know how to spell OTP of course 12:06:46 i'm sure i've seen it spelled wrong (principals) 12:06:53 haha 12:08:27 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 12:08:42 oerjan, http://www.erlang.org/doc/design_principles/part_frame.html 12:09:15 oh and OTP is probably the most misnamed technology ever. 12:09:40 it stands for Open Telecom Platform, except these days erlang and OTP is used for lots of stuff not related to telecom... 12:10:45 actually SASL may be worse since it is confusing with another technology... 12:10:53 in erlang context it means "System Architecture Support Libraries" 12:11:06 elsewhere it tends to mean "Simple Authentication and Security Layer" 12:11:22 oh and OTP usually means "one time password" outside erlang context 12:13:00 yeah noticed that 12:13:25 so erlang had quite bad luck with acronyms 12:14:14 we need to find an acronym for this concept 12:14:25 oerjan, what about the erlang table viewer tool? tv 12:14:45 (a debugging tool really) 12:15:12 O_O you'd think they're doing it on purpose :D 12:15:20 there is also the event tracer et 12:15:22 :D 12:16:07 oerjan, a database called mnesia (the story goes some boss said they couldn't call a database "amnesia". "You can't have a database that forgets things!" so they just dropped the a). 12:16:30 well that's clever enough 12:16:36 yeah 12:16:58 except i'm dubious on there being an a in the first place 12:17:29 oerjan, well Joe Armstrong (one of the original designers of Erlang) claims that story in one of his books about erlang 12:18:12 * AnMaster got it as an ebook 12:18:40 oerjan, http://rafb.net/p/u5s4kE75.html (copy and paste from said ebook) 12:19:19 oh well 12:20:36 anyway sasl and otp are poorly selected acronyms indeed. Especially since they mean something else within computer context. (while tv doesn't). 12:20:56 -!- oklocod has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:21:07 But sasl and opt are both good and will be used in efunge (otp supervisor tree is already used) 12:21:33 otp* 12:21:37 (not opt) 12:23:42 quite common misspelling that, right optbot? 12:23:42 oerjan: that isn't an earth shattering problem is it? you can still implement continuations easily with coroutines... 12:25:18 heh 12:45:41 -!- Corun_ has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 12:46:23 -!- Corun has joined. 12:59:56 hi ais523 13:00:02 oh 13:00:03 he's gone 13:00:13 neener neener 13:02:09 neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer 13:04:13 those finnish long vowels are really scary 13:07:01 Nner 13:09:51 that's not finnish, i think it may be estonian 13:11:01 oh wait, albanian 13:39:45 albanian has long ë's? 13:41:05 * oerjan checks 13:44:30 ah, only the Gheg dialect has long vowels 13:44:55 heh? 13:45:33 what's heh about that 13:45:43 albanian has two main dialects, Gheg and Tosk. Tosk is the basis of the standard language 13:47:58 HUH 13:48:09 this is crazy :D 13:48:26 the erlang table viewer got an option to make it output error messages in Haiku. 13:51:07 Question: 13:51:24 How should I differentiate "wrapped text" and "linebreaked text"? 13:51:26 This is a poem, 13:51:27 indeed it is, 13:51:30 and it should use linebreaks. 13:51:31 -- 13:51:34 "The selected table is unreadable! Only table information may be viewed!" (normal) vs. "Table protected.\nThe answer that you're seeking\nwill remain unknown." 13:51:35 hehe 13:51:37 But this is just some long, wrapped text, and 13:51:39 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 13:51:43 it should not use linebreaks because it is not 13:51:44 a poem. 13:52:26 ehird, well what about mixing CR and LF, like LF for wrapping and CR for line break? 13:52:29 or something like that 13:52:39 that is the only pure text way I can think of 13:52:48 AnMaster: I mean, without modifying the original text. :-) 13:52:56 A heuristic is fine, of course. 13:53:03 ehird, ah you mean to *detect*? 13:53:08 *nod* 13:53:09 well that is trickier... 13:53:33 I'm pondering writing a little program that turns EmailML (as in, the conventions people use when emailing) into HTML. 13:53:39 Since it comes naturally to me already. :-P 13:53:41 and I can't think of any simple way, if it seems the text is always cut off near column 70-80 then maybe? 13:53:49 AnMaster: Yeah, probably. 13:53:56 I don't think there are many poems with lines this very long, 13:54:02 Because they would not be very fun to read, indeed, they would not, 13:54:11 Yep, this is certainly not a poem, indeed, yepidoodle, blah blah blah. 13:54:15 ehird, if you restrict yourself to some specific type of poem and a specific language you could analyse word structure and so on 13:54:27 should be possible to detect for example Haiku that way 13:54:32 and rhymes 13:54:36 Well, yeah, that's a little overblown though. :-P 13:54:42 but a generic solution I can't think of 13:54:59 I'm basing stuff on http://inamidst.com/topic/avocet 13:55:02 shakespearian meters have pretty long lines don't they? 13:55:05 because you do have to cave in somehow - 13:55:14 For example, @links that span many words (http://google.com/) 13:55:17 oerjan, was just about to mention that and other forms 13:55:23 I think i've chosen @ for the marker of the start of those. 13:55:26 for example Greek mythology 13:55:27 It seems pretty natural. 13:55:29 what's the english name 13:55:35 hexameter in Swedish 13:56:24 i think it's the same, i seem to recall iambic pentameter for shakespeare 13:59:40 aye, and occasionally trochaic tetrametre 13:59:59 with the faerie in Midsummer Night's Dream, IIRC 14:03:41 * ehird concludes that lines under 60 chars will be linebreaked 14:06:06 ehird, which could be due to it being a header, or because there is a new section 14:06:12 say a new paragraph 14:06:44 so last line of a paragraph could just be a few words or whatever 14:06:57 well, yes. 14:06:59 but 14:07:00 I mean 14:07:08 the last line won't be breaked 14:07:09 ehird, also a line could be shorter to avoid breaking a long url on the next line into several parts 14:07:10 or such 14:07:11 because there is no following line anyway 14:07:27 or a long inline math expression or whatever 14:07:28 AnMaster: well, you can't do this: 14:07:31 This is an awesome poem yeah yeah: 14:07:32 foo bar 14:07:33 quux 14:07:34 dead 14:07:38 Yeah I love it man it is amazing I love it yeah man 14:07:40 it is great man yeah. 14:07:48 "is-linebreaking" is a property of -paragraphs- 14:07:55 so only the first line has to be over 60 chars 14:07:55 ehird, hm 14:08:23 what if it is shorter due to a long url didn't fit onto the same line? 14:08:41 in the case that you need to break before 60 chars to stop a URL being huge, well, just let it go over 80 columns 'cause when would that ever happen 14:08:44 AnMaster: as i said - how many paragraphs have a URL before the first 60 chars? 14:08:46 on the first line 14:08:48 not just any URL 14:08:50 a _long_ URL 14:08:53 i'd say... not many. 14:09:04 in those rare cases, just let the line go over 80 chars 14:09:07 Please see the documentation at 14:09:07 http://www.erlang.org/doc/design_principles/spec_proc.html#6.2 next time blah 14:09:07 blah blah 14:09:09 for example 14:09:13 that is clearly wrapped 14:09:22 AnMaster: tough shit 14:09:24 because it would have been wider than 80 chars 14:09:24 put the URL on the first line 14:09:31 ehird, doesn't fit into 80 chars 14:09:35 and? 14:09:55 yes, i'm aware you don't use any programs made after the 70s, but everyone else does 14:10:13 to wrap, or not to wrap, that is the question 14:10:19 ehird, the majority of email clients (including Thunderbird and most other GUI ones I seen) defaults to breaking at 80 14:10:36 why are you writing a document in a mail clien 14:10:36 t 14:10:46 ehird, " I'm pondering writing a little program that turns EmailML (as in, the conventions people use when emailing) into HTML." 14:10:54 I thought that was about email? 14:11:10 No, it just so happens that the pseudo-plaintext used by humans most commonly appears in email. 14:11:16 ah 14:11:32 ehird, also the email specs states some max line length, can't remember what exactly atm 14:11:43 That's not the user's problem. 14:12:18 ehird, hm? It means the email client has to wrap before that 14:12:34 why are you writing a document in a mail client 14:13:32 ehird, well pseudo-plaintext is common there 14:13:39 So? 14:13:44 ehird, and even in text documents I wrap at 80 14:13:48 and so does ais523 I bet 14:14:30 Yes, so do I, for readability (well, actually at around 70). My point stands: The amount of texts in which a long URI is before first 60 characters of the first line of a paragraph is minimal. 14:14:39 And in those texts, I'm sure you can handle going over 80 chrs for just one line. 14:15:02 ehird, right you use bibtex for them instead ;P 14:15:54 some other detection you may want to add: 14:16:01 Hm. 14:16:02 Actually: 14:16:03 leading space and * 14:16:05 A line (B) after a line (A) is part of a wrapped paragraph if 14:16:05 len(A+' '+B) > 60. 14:16:07 to detect bullet lists 14:16:13 same for numbers 14:16:14 AnMaster: Yes, yes, I've got that all down. 14:16:25 But I think [[A line (B) after a line (A) is part of a wrapped paragraph if 14:16:25 len(A+' '+B) > 60.]] is reasonable 14:16:27 since sometimes they do end near the 80th column 14:16:50 ehird, hm... 14:17:13 well this will be tricky any way you do it, but should be fairly interesting. 14:17:22 You may have to try for different values certainly. 14:17:25 Also, I'm not purely plaintext anyway, for linking. 14:17:31 The syntax is as such: 14:17:43 Foo bar baz (uri) => Foo bar baz 14:17:50 Foo @bar baz (uri) => Foo bar baz 14:19:22 ehird, if you plan to parse email you may want to auto detect gpg headers/footers and strip them or such 14:19:30 I do not plan to parse email. 14:19:31 I do not plan to parse email. 14:19:31 I do not plan to parse email. 14:19:31 I do not plan to parse email. 14:19:33 :p 14:19:34 ok 14:19:47 ehird, you should not have mentioned email in the first place then ;P 14:20:00 Well, that's the place where the pseduo-markup is used most.) 14:20:22 ehird, this thing would be very hard to accurately parse I suspect: http://rafb.net/p/vMDvmM72.html 14:20:40 especially the lists in the two last sections 14:20:51 Apart from the alignment shit, I should be able to handle that fine. 14:21:08 ==/-- of same length = header, (*|-|whatever)-space = list 14:21:13 and that's about it 14:21:17 ehird, you plan to convert it to html you said? 

message here
;P 14:21:24 Heh. 14:21:32 of course that is cheating 14:21:44 I must say, if I manage to get this working, putting it on an email archive _would_ be nice 14:21:44 no it's not, it's a perfectly valid conversion to HTML :-P 14:21:50 but I imagine: 14:21:56 Foo bar baz (uri) => Foo bar baz 14:21:57 ehird, what about this type of list: http://rafb.net/p/9LtLDv21.html 14:21:59 would trip most things up 14:22:11 AnMaster: That will not be handled./ 14:22:18 oh ok 14:22:20 also: 14:22:28 Parameters (top of stack first): 14:22:29 Vpos A vector describing what cell to operate on in Funge-Space. 14:22:29 Old The value to compare the existing value in said cell to. 14:22:29 New The new value to write in said cell if Old compares equal to the 14:22:29 current value. 14:22:29 that? 14:22:56 "This section is a list of known issues (and solutions) with other fingerprints when using ATHR." 14:23:07 AnMaster: I imagine I could parse that as a definition list. 14:23:30 ehird, ah instead of "ATHR have far-ranging effects..."? 14:23:47 It should be "has" there anyway, but yes, mine is easier to read. :-P 14:23:57 since after the general considerations it goes on to list specific fingerprints and so on yeah 14:24:05 AnMaster: Do not use if pregnant 14:24:21 oerjan, ... heh 14:26:02 * A C99 compiler, or one that supports a large subset of C99, like GCC. 14:26:02 + GCC 3.4.6, 4.1.2, 4.2.1 and 4.3.2 are known to work, other versions may or 14:26:02 may not work. 14:26:02 + ICC 10.1 is known to work too. 14:26:02 - TCC 0.9.24 is known to fail at certain C99 constructs used in cfunge. 14:26:05 what about that one ehird :D 14:26:11 AnMaster: patches welcome. 14:26:21 haha 14:27:09 * Imported two new libraries into the code: 14:27:09 genx - An XML output library (used by TURT). 14:27:09 stringbuffer - Some utilities to build strings in an easy way, code was taken 14:27:09 from crossfire. 14:27:11 that? 14:27:28 Go to hell. :-P 14:27:36 well even one that could handle 75% of the cases or so would be very useful 14:27:49 so if you get this working okish I hope you release the source 14:27:53 I will. :p 14:28:05 python? 14:28:11 Yeah, but I haven't actually written it yet. 14:28:32 right 14:29:49 snake gas 14:31:38 Tada. 14:31:40 A line (B) after a line (A) is part of a wrapped paragraph if len(A+' '+B) > 60.
14:31:47 Is the output for the current docs. :P 14:32:29 * AnMaster sneaks a space and a / into that
of ehird 14:32:47 afk making food 14:33:06 AnMaster: Hi. Would you like the 20 pages worth of text on why XHTML is broken and obsolete from the start? 14:33:26 Or would you like to continue acting as if you're on the cutting edge by using broken technology. 14:33:42 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 14:36:24 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 14:43:16 -!- deveah has joined. 14:43:28 when are you guys going to fix the wiki? 14:43:49 hi btw 14:44:32 when graue reads his email, probably 14:46:18 aha! "his" is correct 14:46:22 uh 14:46:24 i could have told you that 14:46:38 well ais523 apparently couldn't :D 14:46:56 Hi, I'm Scott Feeney of Fairfax, Virginia and you can contact me by emailing graue@oceanbase.org. If I know you, or should, other means of contact are available, but write there first. 14:47:02 -- http://oceanbase.org/graue/ 14:47:21 that's what i just discovered 14:48:23 "Ben the Benly Benis"? 14:48:39 it seems to be a Pokey ripoff 14:55:34 ehird, about xhtml... I guess I forgot ~... 14:55:42 but I thought that was pretty clear 14:55:51 and I think both xhtml and html are pretty broken 14:55:56 general rule of sarcasm - it's meant to be funny 14:56:00 we should use S-html 14:56:05 also, no 14:56:05 (html 14:56:07 sexps are good for data 14:56:08 (head 14:56:13 sgml/xml are good for markup 14:56:21 if you can't see why, well, stop talking about markup languages immediately :| 14:56:38 ehird, I do see why yes, but that doesn't prevent me from having an esoteric viewpoint 14:57:44 what are you talking about? 14:57:50 deveah: Boring stuff. 14:57:58 like what? 14:58:06 markup languages. 14:58:08 not esolang-related. 14:58:10 oh 14:58:22 I'm developing a textmode browser right now 14:58:34 web browser 14:58:37 why is xml better for markup than sexps? 14:58:55 oklopol: sexps are not family friendly, duh 14:59:14 oklopol: it's a bit complicated 14:59:25 oerjan, hehe 14:59:38 but basically the redundancy of sgml/xml, its support for attributes and its leniency in handling trivial plain bulk text 14:59:42 is what makes it superior to sexps for markup 15:00:23 -!- oklopol has left (?). 15:00:29 -!- oklopol has joined. 15:00:30 bye oklopol. 15:00:32 hi oklopol. 15:00:41 hi ehird. 15:01:08 i wonder what the shortcut for parting is... can't be too complicated, since i keep on doing it 15:02:09 INSERT ELEMENTS head, body INTO ELEMENT html; INSERT ELEMENT title INTO ELEMENT head OF ELEMENT html; INSERT TEXT "this is a horrible idea for markup" INTO ELEMENT title OF ELEMENT head OF ELEMENT html; 15:02:13 heh 15:02:28 that's quite pretty 15:02:37 EXERT BRAIN 15:02:47 BRAAAAAINS 15:02:52 it isn't really sql even, just SQL look-alike 15:03:13 ehird: i agree as much as i'm capable of. 15:03:14 AnMaster: die :-P 15:03:17 (with some ideas from apple script, mainly the "of") 15:03:20 :P 15:03:32 ehird, hah 15:03:43 well if anyone did that seriously I would agree with you ehird 15:04:02 -!- deveah has left (?). 15:04:03 it's impossible to be serious about that 15:04:03 i hope 15:04:09 so do I 15:04:33 and I'm sure it is possible to make a even worse syntax 15:04:36 oh yes 15:05:21 WITH ATTRIBUTE href HAVING TEXT VALUE "http://example.com" 15:05:41 however on bright side: You could easily do complex SELECT 15:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | does your assembly language look like a 'normal' computer? I mean registers, labels you can use as storage and such?. 15:07:54 SELECT TEXT OF ELEMENT p WHEN ATTRIBUTE id OF ELEMENT p IS EQUAL TO TEXT VALUE "top"; 15:07:54 optbot: let's hope not 15:07:55 oerjan: Yay! 15:07:55 XD 15:08:20 COBOSQL 15:08:41 oerjan, yes and for html documents... 15:08:48 + some ideas from AppleScript 15:09:26 COBOSML then 15:09:27 So maybe COBOSQL Script? 15:09:35 oerjan, hn 15:09:40 hm* 15:10:49 SELECT TEXT OF ELEMENT p WHEN ATTRIBUTE id OF ELEMENT p IS EQUAL TO TEXT VALUE "top" AND ALSO TEXT OF ELEMENT p STARTS WITH TEXT VALUE "ehird"; 15:10:57 * ehird kills AnMaster 15:11:28 -!- LinuS has joined. 15:11:32 it's for the good of humanity! 15:11:36 the killing, i mean 15:11:38 ehird, I should actually spec this language 15:11:42 oerjan, I agree 15:12:16 Structured Text Markup Definition and Query Language 15:12:19 STMDQL? 15:13:02 Find an acronym that ends up as RAPEFIRE, because that is approximately the feeling using it will give. 15:13:24 ehird, I think either COBOSQL or COBOSML are good names for it though 15:13:33 But misleading. 15:13:38 also does sql actually need upper case? 15:13:38 COBOSQL sounds pretty easy. :-P 15:13:41 and no 15:14:05 ehird, and no I probably won't be able to spec it 15:14:15 but AND turns into AND ALSO, and OR into OR ELSE 15:15:05 commands should however end with ", OR ELSE!" 15:15:31 oerjan, somewhat like the opposite of INTERCAL's "PLEASE"? 15:15:36 yay 15:16:45 oerjan, hm? 15:17:27 you also want: BUT NOT and MAYBE operators 15:17:28 means: i didn't think of that, but yeah 15:18:40 oh top element must always be referred to with THE 15:18:53 like ELEMENT body OF THE ELEMENT html 15:19:42 oerjan, well I suggest you write the spec, you seem to have some good ideas :) 15:19:50 I wouldn't be able to to. 15:19:54 it is too horrible 15:20:04 i'm sorry no can do 15:20:19 oerjan, due to preserving sanity? 15:20:25 also, wrists 15:20:29 ouch 15:20:53 oerjan, hope your wrists get better (not related to this language) 15:20:54 not to mention i have a cold with fever 15:21:23 oh and all that messy java script changing document object model crap you know? 15:21:27 we can get rid of it 15:21:29 just: 15:22:14 UPDATE TEXT OF THE FIRST ELEMENT p OF ELEMENT body OF THE ELEMENT html SETTING NEW VALUE TO TEXT "Blergh..."; 15:22:17 or something like that 15:22:45 clearly this is not a language for bad wrists 15:22:58 oerjan, you mean because it is so verbose? 15:23:02 yeah 15:23:04 indeed 15:23:33 oerjan, also it is considered bad style to use caps lock, you should hold down shift instead all the time ;P 15:23:41 recommended coding style 15:23:45 i was thinking of that 15:24:05 oerjan, since it is case sensitive 15:24:31 "This language is insensitive to everything, except case" 15:24:39 :D 15:27:23 oerjan, I think it should require exactly correct syntax 15:27:28 oerjan, and only give: 15:27:33 SYNTAX ERROR 15:27:40 and not even line number 15:27:45 in case of an error 15:28:23 i think that is fairly common as esolangs go. 15:28:33 if even that 15:29:14 oerjan, maybe very very verbose ones that are still, somehow, not helpful at all? 15:29:32 maybe 15:29:47 it could say precisely what the error is, but not where it is 15:30:12 oh and try to do it without mentioning any actual text used 15:30:31 "you fail because you are an idiot" 15:30:50 that's not precise 15:31:12 well, it can't know why you're an idiot ;-0 15:31:15 s/0/)/ 15:31:16 "you fail because of increased dopamine level in the hippocampus region of your brain" 15:31:30 "PEBKAC" 15:31:35 "Fuck you and die, all you ever do is lie. You say 'this is a program' but it's _not_ - it may look like one, but it is not. You always lie to me. You never just tell the truth, maybe say 'this is not a program'. I'm going." 15:31:39 then it removes the compiler 15:31:46 perhaps it should try to correct your error, and add errors elsewhere? 15:31:51 (that happens after 10 syntax errors (spread out over different program runs)) 15:32:14 so if you have say a syntax error somewhere, you might get weird overflows somewhere else. 15:32:51 ehird: after the first errors you need to add "SORRY ABOUT THAT" and increasingly profuse apologies to get the next ones to compile 15:32:59 :-D 15:33:04 hehe 15:33:16 maybe have it ask you to stop beating it (beating = running it with an invalid program) 15:33:20 and plead and plead 15:33:26 until it runs away (deletes itself) sobbing 15:34:05 when installing the compiler, it may have to choose a random personality 15:34:14 oerjan, hahah 15:34:19 one should be... 15:34:28 genuine people personality 15:34:28 :D 15:34:35 "sane" should not be an option 15:37:55 think Sirius Corporation 15:38:53 yes 15:41:09 oh wait that was what you were referring to 15:41:11 Oct 19 12:55:04 tux hpijs: WARNING: black pen has low ink 15:41:11 Oct 19 12:55:04 tux hpijs: STATE: marker-supply-low-warning 15:41:17 odd, that has been going on for weeks 15:41:20 and still printing works fine 15:41:29 * oerjan didn't notice until he read it on the wiki page 15:41:39 oerjan, of course it was... 15:42:31 that's odd? i thought that was how all printers did it 15:43:04 oerjan, reporting the level was low when there are still more than 100 pages left on "normal quality"? 15:43:10 hint: they want to sell marker 15:43:17 er wait 15:43:24 ink, whatever 15:43:28 yep ink 15:43:36 no idea why hp call it marker 15:44:09 AnMaster: mind you with some corporate procedures you may have to order new ink that far in advance :D 15:44:37 oerjan, heh? I just went to the local shop a few days ago. But not going to replace it until I actually run out of black ink 15:44:58 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:45:02 i mean, Dilbert-style corporations 15:45:10 what really hurts are the colour ones... Because you usually run out of one colour long before the other ones 15:45:45 oerjan, don't have any experience of those 15:45:54 ooh, you could have a company policy that said you had to use all colors balancedly... 15:46:18 neither have i but i do read Dilbert 15:46:34 oerjan, maybe I should start doing that 15:52:33 -!- hando has quit ("Leaving"). 15:54:17 http://impressive.net/people/gerald/1999/01/http-archive/ This is very clever. 15:54:31 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:54:34 I think I shall write a firefox plugin to do that, maybe a greasemonkey script for simplicity. 15:55:02 But... I visit an awful lot of pages per day, probably bordering on 10,000. 15:55:07 Might take too much space. 15:56:01 ehird, 10 000 on a day? That many *static* pages? Since the system doesn't seem to do dynamic ones yet 15:56:12 AnMaster: Um, that archives all pages. 15:56:20 "This setup doesn't quite archive enough stuff because Squid doesn't cache dynamic resources etc.; I plan to install Jigsaw and make it archive a copy of everything it retrieves. (or," 15:56:36 It's impossible to know what a dynamic resource is via HTTP. 15:56:39 It's just a resource. 15:56:40 -!- Corun has joined. 15:56:42 Besides, I said I'd write my own. 15:56:46 ah yes 15:56:47 As that was made in 1999, last updated 2004. 15:57:03 But yes, my browsing style is rapid. 15:57:09 Due to obsessive link-clickery. ;-) 15:57:14 also the issue of different pages, same url 15:57:17 for example ajax 15:57:26 how to handle something like gmail? 15:57:38 AnMaster: well, you can't. 15:57:39 Well. 15:57:40 Yes you can. 15:57:43 partly yes 15:57:48 gmail changes the hash-portion of the URI as a hack for the back button/history. 15:57:52 /bookmarks 15:57:54 ah 15:57:56 So you could hack that in, somehow. 15:57:59 Generally, though? 15:58:04 generally impossible 15:58:04 Ajaxy pages should not change the very nature of the page. 15:58:11 They should just update content/submit stuff, etc. :-P 15:58:23 hm 15:58:41 Anything else is bad style. 15:58:41 ehird, what about plugins? Such as when watching youtube 15:58:43 Well. 15:58:44 fungot: What is the meaning of life? 15:58:44 oerjan: yeah yeah that's 15:58:45 Unless you are making a site specialized for the iPhone. 15:59:02 Because it's nicer to have a seamless view there (e.g. mimic the OS transitions) by doing everything with Ajax. 15:59:03 fungot: are you still stuck on phone conversations? 15:59:03 oerjan: ( ( oh okay oh 15:59:05 But that's a corner case. 15:59:11 AnMaster: What's that got to do with ajax? 15:59:23 fungot: oh? 15:59:24 Deewiant: i'm sure they do they come and serve you something it's not fnord for whatever bizarre reason 15:59:25 ehird, nothing, it was just another potential issue 15:59:37 fungot: yes, being fnord would make much more sense. 15:59:38 Deewiant: i guess so 15:59:38 AnMaster: Well, it'd fail at mirroring youtube pages, yeah. 15:59:46 fungot, are you still on the data from those phone calls? 15:59:46 fungot: that's because fnord is so hard to get hold of 15:59:47 AnMaster: ( ( laughter mn)) 15:59:47 oerjan: ( ( laughter oh i don't know i'm 15:59:49 I could specialcase it though. 15:59:51 yeah I guess so 16:00:22 OK, now for a directory structure... 16:00:24 ehird, and then pages using POST data with same url. And what not 16:00:30 AnMaster: that's not a problem 16:00:40 or pages with same data but different ? arguments 16:00:48 that's not a problem. 16:00:55 well see how much you get during a day would be interesting. 16:01:29 and then there is the issue of pages marked as no-cache heh, I guess you'll just ignore that 16:01:37 /http/example.com/:80/i/love/astronauts/they/are/cool/?cool=1/#hello/2008/10/19/16/01/1 16:01:43 Wait, need the method in there. 16:01:54 /http/example.com/:80/i/love/astronauts/they/are/cool/?cool=1/#hello/POST/2008/10/19/16/01/1 16:01:57 It's really verbose, but complete. 16:02:21 Or. 16:02:24 I could just not cache POSTs. 16:02:27 As you're not meant to. 16:05:24 Hmm... 16:05:37 I would, ideally, modify my browser so that it does not use a regular cache anymore, but instead fetches from the archive. 16:05:40 Otherwise, that's some duplication. 16:05:53 Heh, the Bruce Schneier facts randomizator gave me: "Bruce Schneier is able to read every Unlambda program." 16:06:00 cache not the POST, lest ye be cached 16:06:02 Also, actually viewing archived pages will be difficult - they will have to be preprocessed to resolve links to other pages from the archive at the right time. 16:06:08 fizzie: *g* 16:07:46 fungot: Go back to IRC-speak, it's less boring. 16:07:47 fizzie: what makes you think i need to recompile all the strands or whatever you wanna call it 16:08:12 fizzie: feed it the brown corpus 16:08:15 it's hilariously bad 16:09:09 ehird, you need to consider cache control directives 16:09:21 if you replace the cache 16:09:24 Yes. 16:09:35 I should probably have a metadata system - 1/meta and 1/content 16:09:49 Of course, the more usable this system gets the less liklely I am to implement it out of complexity. 16:09:55 ehird, you could use file attributes if OS X have that 16:10:00 Still, it'd be nice never to see a 404 after visiting a page again. 16:10:06 AnMaster: I'd prefer something more mungible. 16:10:23 "No definitions were found for mungible." 16:10:35 Did you mean: define:fungible 16:10:44 AnMaster: It's one of those words that you can interpret just by reading them. 16:10:54 ehird, well maybe a native speaker can 16:10:55 I can't 16:11:11 AnMaster: It's in the phonetics, kinda. :-P 16:11:19 I can't really explain it. 16:11:25 ehird, so what does it mean? 16:11:37 AnMaster: Hard to explain. Kind of... manipulatable, except... more gloopy... 16:11:53 ...... No definitions were found for gloopy. 16:11:55 :( 16:12:01 Gooey. 16:12:02 Globby. 16:12:04 :-P 16:12:29 Definitions of gooey on the Web: <-- some really really strange ones before the sane ones 16:12:35 "Graphical User Interface. Esentially, it is using pictures (or graphics) instead of words to give commands or exchange information with the computer. 16:12:35 homepages.vvm.com/~jhunt/compupedia/comp_glos/g_h.htm" 16:12:52 "of, or related to goo; soft, sticky and viscous " seems sane 16:13:05 ehird, as for globby: "No definitions were found for globby." 16:13:17 AnMaster: Oh fer gods sake, just pronounce the words in your head for a bit. :-P 16:13:34 ehird, "like a glob"? Wildcard glob? 16:13:54 Globby, goey, like... a gloopy slimeball...monster...thing. 16:14:01 (Also, the first gooey definition is from the pronounciation of GUI) 16:14:35 you want something that is a manipulatable slime ball in your file system :D 16:14:36 ? 16:14:50 no 16:14:50 XD 16:14:54 AnMaster: like tar balls? 16:14:58 mungible...sort of... 16:15:03 ehird: I could feed it the LDC Gigaword corpus -- that's 12 gigabytes of text, mainly news articles, gzipped. But my script would need some serious fixation before processing that stuff would be even remotely possible. 16:15:04 Deewiant: do you understand what i mean by 'mungible'? 16:15:13 ehird: I don't even know what you're talking about. 16:15:13 fizzie: the brown corpus is just a meg or two 16:15:21 I might, if I knew what you were talking about. 16:15:22 Deewiant: the word. 16:15:23 mungible. 16:15:32 i'm talking about a metadata file, AnMaster suggested using attributes on the actual file 16:15:37 I said i'd prefer an actual file because it's more mungible 16:15:46 yeah, you can munge it 16:16:11 more easily, anyway 16:16:33 Deewiant: you're bluffing 16:16:34 :-P 16:17:11 no, I don't think I am 16:17:21 I think AnMaster got it to an extent with "manipulatable" 16:17:30 ehird: but, you want to tell me why this says "mong"? http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/?search 16:17:44 you can ponder it while I eat 16:17:47 I have absolutely no idea. 16:23:00 hm? 16:23:20 what? 16:23:25 WHAT 16:23:28 *what 16:23:57 I'm being highlighted on around 5 channels, if if is something important, please repeat it on one line, or I can read it later. 16:24:21 ehird: I used the Europarl corpus (European parliament speeches, the English translations, for authors with names beginning with A-F) because I happened to have it here locally already. So fungot's now a politician. 16:24:21 fizzie: mr president, i support your positions on this. 16:24:29 LMAO 16:24:35 fungot: lie 16:24:35 ehird: mr president, clearly we are going to continue to take place. we cannot ask for this in the near future 16:24:55 ok fungot 16:24:56 ehird: madam president, when discussing the issue. i should perhaps make a few specific positions. as i have said, that corruption comes from within. a decision in nice to the effect that the existing accommodation for such instruments within the european parliament at this time as well. 16:25:04 fungot: stop bullshitting 16:25:05 ehird: mr president, commissioner, ensure that the impact of the directive, and a conference held in new york is a very important time, precisely because the area is the second recommendation. a joint declaration on free and fair trade bananas, but about the method. as this is indeed a breakthrough for the right of public access to administrative procedures. 16:25:13 fungot: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 16:25:14 ehird: to avoid any cuts in relation to your reference to this, and with each day that the french should be " fnord'. 16:25:54 -!- zbrown has joined. 16:33:24 -!- omniscient_idiot has quit (Connection timed out). 16:33:25 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has quit (Connection timed out). 16:34:20 free and fair trade bananas, indeed 16:35:25 fungot: so i can count on your vote, then? 16:35:26 oerjan: mr president, honourable members, it may be said that particularly here, parliament has the power to assess the impact of this agreement which should contribute to the international agreements on limiting co2 emissions and reducing environmental pollution and intellectual property in third countries. 16:37:04 fungot: yeah reduce their intellectual property already 16:37:05 oerjan: madam president, i thank mr watson for the information on spain. sorry, i have no information about, but nothing has happened here. i am slowly getting fnord up by these fnord arguments. we listened to our fnord impulses again. 16:37:34 fungot: yeah i can see that 16:37:35 oerjan: madam president, mr schulz: we did indeed restrict ourselves to condemning the atrocities of the taliban protection of mr bin laden has a london bank account. in the interests of major fnord multinational monopolies which want to join in when the action really does start; and, when eventually slaughtered, of meat and bonemeal amounts to less than 2 in the form of a draft regulation that will ensure the economic viabilit 16:38:14 WTF 16:38:53 fungot: WTF 16:38:53 Deewiant: mr president, you were wonderful!' i am sorry to say that the work has been completed they will be included in the list of members in the lower chamber in the netherlands, which has saved europe from dictators in the past. 16:38:59 clearly people should listen more to parliament procedures. this is horrible. 16:39:09 hehe 16:39:13 WTF 16:39:24 thank you, dutch 16:39:29 fungot: WTF 16:39:29 Deewiant: the impressive number of projects in third countries. if the transatlantic relationship, but the parliament put forward a proposal on voluntary agreements aimed at considering how these can be overcome without secondary legislation, we must jointly take this approach. 16:39:32 GregorR, fizzie fed som mad text into fungot's dict 16:39:42 fungot: WTF 16:39:48 :-( 16:39:50 oh noes 16:39:53 fungot: dammit 16:39:55 fungot, there? 16:39:58 ah 16:39:59 fizzie, ! 16:40:02 crash I fear 16:40:04 ah well 16:40:05 Yes. 16:40:07 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:40:09 fizzie, debugging? 16:40:26 Later. :p 16:40:34 -!- fungot has joined. 16:40:41 There you have our little politician again. 16:40:42 fizzie, with cfunge you could put it in trace mode, then redirect trace to a file 16:40:52 fizzie, trace is by default to stderr 16:40:55 There's far too much trace information. 16:41:02 RC/Funge has got a trace mode too. 16:41:05 fizzie, you just want the last bit 16:41:08 Hm, I wonder if you get more points for killing everyone slowly and horribly, or quickly and dramatically ... 16:41:13 fizzie: just tail it :-P 16:41:19 fungot: what about the crisis? 16:41:20 oerjan: mr president, because i believe that these tasks will have to hold your committee meeting without me. i worry about the conditions in which all these qualities will continue to be monitored but it must then be prepared to move into the city. that is very important that we support in particular paragraphs 11 and 13 refer would be too many control centres is nonsense. last year 390 000 people applied for asylum in member 16:41:39 fungot: How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck would chuck wood? 16:41:39 GregorR: mr president, that we currently hear from the commission to adopt them, because of the pressure that the european research area. the role of a central disciplinary system which will ensure that the provisions of the treaty. 16:41:53 fizzie, cfunge can just dump current instruction, so one char per executed instruction, or "x,y, integer value of instruction, instruction, thread id" 16:41:59 or even dump stack every time 16:42:04 no actual debugger though 16:42:15 AnMaster: RC/Funge-98 has a trace mode as well as a debugger. 16:42:20 Deewiant, ah 16:42:26 and ccbi lacks a trace mode 16:42:33 yep 16:42:44 efunge lacks both unless you uncomment a few lines in the source 16:42:47 currenly that is 16:42:51 "i am slowly getting fnord up by these fnord arguments" <- I like that 16:42:58 I plan to make tracing available in a *VERY ENTERPRISY WAY* 16:42:59 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has joined. 16:43:10 AnMaster: XML output? :-P 16:43:12 using the SASL error logger (System Architecture Support Libraries) 16:43:12 -!- omniscient_idiot has joined. 16:43:26 it would look like: 16:43:41 =PROGRESS REPORT==== 19-Oct-2008::17:43:35 === 16:43:46 application: efunge 16:43:55 started_at: foo@node 16:44:10 and then the rest of the data 16:45:10 one of those for every tick, right? 16:45:15 wait no 16:45:19 it would be a different message 16:45:20 a sec 16:45:53 Yes, there is a trace mode in RC/Funge. Assuming tail is clever enough to throw stuff away (should be) I guess I could just tail the last ten thousand lines or so. 16:46:01 =INFO REPORT==== 19-Oct-2008::17:45:56 === 16:46:01 Executing instruction 43 at {42,43} in thread 0 IP 0 16:46:02 like that 16:46:04 every tick 16:46:05 :D 16:46:14 1> error_logger:info_msg("Executing instruction ~p at ~p in thread ~p IP ~p~n", [$+, {42,43}, 0, 0]). 16:46:17 was how I generated it 16:46:51 Deewiant, however a bit mad for tracing 16:47:02 very good, but it should be XML with XSL 16:47:22 Asztal, you could install a different logger callback I believe 16:47:26 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:47:30 not sure how, but pretty sure it is possible 16:47:45 and you could make it log to rotating log files 16:47:48 fizzie: no, tail reads all the input into a red-black tree indexed by line number, then when it hits EOF it repeatedly gets the lowest key, checks whether it's in the requested range to be printed, and prints it if so 16:47:50 that rotate when they reach some size 16:48:02 by a few lines of config 16:49:38 Asztal, I think there is also some true tracing functionality 16:49:53 sys:trace seems to be for system messages to a thread only, but pretty sure there are stuff for user tracing too 16:50:01 Usually those just rename the file, start a new one, and signal the logging thing to reopen the log file so it starts writing in the new one. I don't think RC/Funge is clever enough to do the reopening. 16:50:38 in fact erlang got several tracing frontends 16:51:01 since the low level trace functionality is too powerful and flexible, using it directly is pretty hard 16:51:18 Deewiant: you've gotta be kidding O_O 16:51:41 oerjan: he is... 16:51:53 whew 16:51:53 oerjan, I thought you if anyone would have humor 16:52:04 AnMaster: Life imitates art. 16:52:05 i do have humor 16:52:17 I found Deewiant pretty funny 16:52:31 but that doesn't mean i can recognize when the real world is insane :D 16:53:38 yes of course, everyone know that tail uses a self-balanced B-tree, not a red-black tree. 16:53:44 Of course he was kidding... 16:53:59 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 16:54:07 Thanks, people, you made me check out tail sources just to be sure. 16:54:12 ha ha 16:54:40 AnMaster: wow, an actual funny joke 16:54:40 :O 16:54:55 ehird, well as I said, humor is subjective 16:55:04 AN ACTUAL FUNNY JOKE 16:55:10 ehird, unlike yours 16:55:15 and ehird doesn't like to be subjected to humor 16:55:17 no, like mine 16:55:20 oerjan: it burns 16:55:22 fizzie, and the erlang support for rotating log files is done in erlang 16:57:33 fizzie, http://rafb.net/p/8VgYea83.html 16:57:46 Maybe I'll restart fungot under the tracing+tail now. Although I'm not sure how much it'll help. Certainly I'll find out where it ends up looping around, but if it's something data-dependent (like it'll probably be) most likely the infinite-looping has pushed the interesting file offsets and such out of the log. Maybe I'd have some space to add a ":." sequence there where it talks about file offsets. 16:57:46 fizzie: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, is it basically poor management or is it due to the refusal of this house to enable us to take environmental criteria into consideration in a subsequent review. the draft framework decision on organised crime. 16:57:47 it makes you think, though: why the hell is 'tail' 1700 lines of code 16:58:03 Deewiant, the GNU one maybe 16:58:08 I'm pretty sure the BSD one is shorter 16:58:13 let me check (freebsd 6.3) 16:58:27 'echo' is a sweet 256 lines 16:58:38 and 'cat' is 785 16:58:42 $ wc -l /usr/src/usr.bin/tail/tail.c 16:58:42 338 /usr/src/usr.bin/tail/tail.c 16:58:43 there 16:58:47 I didn't know it does files and pipes differently, although I guess that makes a lot of sense. 16:59:03 $ wc -l /usr/src/bin/cat/cat.c 16:59:03 314 /usr/src/bin/cat/cat.c 16:59:13 cat should not be 314 16:59:14 lines 16:59:16 it should be 30 16:59:17 seriously 16:59:21 $ wc -l /usr/src/bin/echo/echo.c 16:59:22 137 /usr/src/bin/echo/echo.c 16:59:22 fucking gnu software :\ 16:59:23 ehird, agreed 16:59:27 'ls' is a whopping 4542 lines 16:59:27 ehird, this is FreeBSD one 16:59:28 .... 16:59:32 ehird, so not gnu at all 16:59:33 AnMaster: fucking bsd :-P 16:59:39 Deewiant: you are fucking kidding me 16:59:39 that's over half the size of CCBI 16:59:40 * Corun read that as "fucking gnu showers" 16:59:42 4000 lines? 16:59:44 jesus 16:59:47 ehird: 4542. 16:59:56 $ wc -l /usr/src/bin/ls/ls.c 16:59:56 873 /usr/src/bin/ls/ls.c 16:59:59 ehird: the last 180 being the --help text. 17:00:00 Corun: god, you just made me imagine rms having sex in a shower... how did you do that? how can anything make me imagine anything so unspeakably awful 17:00:01 i hate you 17:00:07 i hope you die in a fire tonight >:( 17:00:12 Deewiant: LOL 17:00:22 ehird, there are multiple flags for cat, even posix defines one 17:00:23 LOL 17:00:26 AnMaster: how long is ls --help 17:00:27 -u Write bytes from the input file to the standard output without delay as each is read. 17:00:37 $ ls --help 17:00:37 ls: illegal option -- - 17:00:37 usage: ls [-ABCFGHILPRSTUWZabcdfghiklmnopqrstuwx1] [file ...] 17:00:38 :P 17:00:45 Deewiant, see man page instead 17:00:49 what is that program that has 'has even more flags than ls(1)' in BUGS> 17:01:05 Deewiant, since *bsd tool doesn't use -- flags 17:01:11 only single letter ones 17:01:15 AnMaster: ls -h? 17:01:16 and -G is the colours one 17:01:28 /usr/src $ ls -h 17:01:28 COPYRIGHT Makefile.inc1 bin games lib sbin tools 17:01:28 LOCKS ObsoleteFiles.inc contrib gnu libexec secure usr.bin 17:01:28 MAINTAINERS README crypto include release share usr.sbin 17:01:29 Makefile UPDATING etc kerberos5 rescue sys 17:01:38 you really didn't need to paste that :-P 17:01:41 Deewiant, there is *no help except short usage* 17:01:43 and man page 17:01:44 ls.c is the longest source file in coreutils; sort at a bit over 3k lines and pr at a bit less than 3k come next. 17:01:49 Deewiant, on *BSD you sue the *man page* 17:01:54 Heh, sue. 17:01:55 not some funky --help 17:02:08 BSD is so litigation-obsessed, you even sue the man pages! 17:02:19 use* 17:02:19 I've always preferred --help and such 17:02:20 typo 17:02:21 duh 17:02:35 ideally a program is just a single executable with no other data files 17:02:54 the *BSD sort seems to just use the GNU one 17:03:03 FreeBSD that is 17:03:15 same for grep 17:03:19 but their own awk 17:03:49 there is also something called tsort 17:03:51 * AnMaster reads man page 17:03:56 -!- fungot has quit ("restarting with tracing..."). 17:04:02 TSORT(1) FreeBSD General Commands Manual TSORT(1) 17:04:02 NAME 17:04:02 tsort -- topological sort of a directed graph 17:04:03 *blink* 17:04:24 fizzie, also cfunge wouldn't know to reopen the file for trace since it just use plain stderr 17:04:30 adding a signal handler should be simple 17:04:31 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:05:03 hmm, I don't quite get tsort 17:05:08 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:05:10 "input contains an odd number of tokens"? 17:05:14 Deewiant, as for " ideally a program is just a single executable with no other data files" 17:05:16 well they are 17:05:19 file is an exception 17:05:23 it needs a definition file 17:05:30 most other simple core tools are one file 17:05:32 -!- fungot has joined. 17:05:43 AnMaster: on BSD they aren't, because you don't know what to do with them without the man file, which is external. 17:05:47 AnMaster: a topological sort finds an order of the vertices such that all source vertices come before the corresponding target vertices 17:05:50 iirc 17:05:54 yes 17:05:59 but I don't get tsort. 17:05:59 Deewiant, don't bloat binary with manual 17:06:09 AnMaster: don't bloat package with extra file 17:06:26 Deewiant, you have man pages on linux too 17:06:39 Deewiant, except the man pages on *bsd are way way higher quality 17:06:41 AnMaster: yes, I know, I wasn't arguing for linux in particular 17:06:44 not just some "see info page" 17:06:47 but proper man pages 17:06:59 at least on linux you don't usually need the man/info page 17:07:02 --help is sufficient 17:07:23 Deewiant: It works so that on alternating lines you have source/destination for the graph edges. 17:07:56 Deewiant: So you input "foo", "bar", "foo", "baz", "bar", "quux", "baz", "quux" and it outputs either "foo", "bar", "baz", "quux" or "foo", "baz", "bar", "quux". 17:08:00 Deewiant: "`tsort' reads its input as pairs of strings, separated by blanks, 17:08:01 indicating a partial ordering. The output is a total ordering that 17:08:04 corresponds to the given partial ordering. 17:08:13 yeah, I looked at the info page. I tried "foo bar baz" but it seems it wants "foo bar foo baz" 17:08:16 Okay, so any sort of blank works, not just newline. 17:08:31 http://rafb.net/p/1iIMoG85.html 17:08:34 that is linux and freebsd 17:08:35 Deewiant: note that each edge connects a pair of vertices 17:08:36 Deewiant: I think the "odd number of tokens" is quite a clear clue that it expects pairs. 17:08:38 man pages for tsort 17:08:39 Deewiant, ^ 17:08:46 Deewiant, which one is most helpful? 17:08:54 fizzie: should have been obvious I suppose, yes :-) 17:09:11 AnMaster: BSD. what's your point? My point was that that kind of stuff should be in --help. 17:09:20 or otherwise embedded in the executable. 17:09:27 Deewiant, isn't in tsort --help on my linux 17:09:37 AnMaster: What's your point? My point was that that kind of stuff should be in --help. 17:09:43 well it isn't 17:09:53 on gnu it is all in horrible info pages 17:09:57 AnMaster: My point was that that kind of stuff ******should***** be in --help. 17:10:05 Deewiant, yes, but show me a system where it is 17:10:09 AnMaster: CCBI. 17:10:11 for instance. 17:10:23 Deewiant, I don't want to have to pipe --help into less 17:10:25 I wasn't talking about operating systems, I was talking about programs. 17:10:50 AnMaster: you'd rather pipe a man page into less? 17:10:58 Deewiant, well yes 17:11:06 Deewiant, since that is what man does 17:11:13 oerjan: Yeah, I was hoping that one could give a vertex followed by a list of vertices it connects to 17:11:15 man tsort 17:11:15 or 17:11:19 tsort --help | less 17:11:22 or whatever 17:11:24 AnMaster: Yes, and that's my point. It's the _same thing_. 17:11:29 I think the first is shorter 17:11:30 :) 17:11:35 that was my point 17:11:38 it is shorter to write 17:11:39 Then have a short --help, and a --help-long. 17:11:45 Whatever. 17:11:50 Deewiant, ah like portage 17:11:54 --help and --help --verbose 17:12:04 -v/--verbose affects a lot of other stuff too 17:12:44 Deewiant, now I think a good example of how to not do it: nmap --help 17:12:46 it is just a clutter 17:12:49 white nc -h 17:12:50 is easy 17:13:11 http://rafb.net/p/LUULdC31.html 17:13:22 "SEE THE MAN PAGE FOR MANY MORE OPTIONS, DESCRIPTIONS, AND EXAMPLES" is how the nmap help ends 17:13:48 nmap --help is pretty good IMO, could use more whitespace 17:13:55 Deewiant, the nc one? 17:14:08 I strongly prefer the nc -h 17:14:18 AnMaster: unfair comparison, nmap supports hundreds of options, nc supports, looks like 20 or so 17:14:30 well okay, probably not hundreds either 17:14:34 Deewiant, also nmap says "see man page for more options" 17:14:34 but lots more anyhoo 17:16:05 Deewiant, anyway yes --help is good, but with too many options it breaks badly 17:16:18 yes, hence --help --verbose 17:16:46 Deewiant, I think the erlang solution would really piss you off 17:16:50 erl -man erlc 17:16:53 erl -man lists 17:17:06 opens man with the relevant documentation page 17:17:26 In general I guess best would be to have --help have the shortopts in the usual format and at most 20 lines of description of most important options 17:17:29 oh and they are stored in a special place, not in standard man path, since most of them are for erlang modules, not tools 17:17:46 Deewiant, erlang tools seem to like ignoring unknown options 17:17:56 so you get erlang shell if you try --help 17:18:11 also some command line parameters use + or such 17:18:16 like +K true or +A 128 17:18:24 But, you know, when you're talking about things like compilers + libraries it does make sense to have separate manuals because they can be hundreds of pages long. 17:18:53 (+K = kernel pool, like epoll/kqueue and such, no idea why default is false; +A = Async threads for IO to prevent blocking erlang itself) 17:19:15 Deewiant, yes... tried man zsh? 17:19:29 "Because zsh contains many features, the zsh manual has been split into a number of sections" 17:19:50 17 man pages it seems here 17:20:05 yep 17:20:18 that's a good example, but the --help is terrible 17:20:29 too much whitespace :-P 17:20:49 (Använd '-v --help' för att visa kommandoradsflaggor för barnprocesser) 17:20:50 for gcc 17:21:01 which is where all the interesting options are 17:21:15 $ gcc --help -v 2>&1 | wc -l 17:21:15 1487 17:21:16 wow 17:21:23 ew, non-english locale 17:21:37 Deewiant, well yeah I want UTF-8, and that breaks in C locale 17:21:46 there is no C.UTF-8 17:22:08 just use en_GB 17:22:24 Deewiant, with sv_SE.UTF-8 for some like date and so? 17:22:44 LC_MONETARY, LC_PAPER, LC_MEASUREMENT and so on 17:22:54 (type locale for the full list of variables) 17:23:20 Deewiant, actually: 17:23:26 export LC_MESSAGES=C 17:23:28 issue solved 17:24:24 Deewiant, what do you think of cfunge's -h? 17:24:55 Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/J2zlDX34.html 17:25:11 fine apart from the "see README" bit ;-) 17:25:24 Deewiant, well that is where I put most docs 17:25:44 for efunge I should do something like: 17:25:47 The options are a lie 17:25:52 since it doesn't have any options 17:25:55 :-P 17:26:00 just want file name and script args 17:27:18 actually a better idea: 17:27:36 Usage: efunge [OPTIONS] [FILE] [PROGRAM OPTIONS] 17:27:45 -h Show this help 17:27:51 That's all :D 17:28:01 Deewiant, is that what you want? 17:29:26 Yeah, I guess :-P 17:30:05 Deewiant, agree it seems slightly insane though? 17:30:14 better than having no help 17:31:09 Deewiant, anyway the recommended way to start efunge is different if you encounter a bug, then you should start it from inside erlang 17:31:24 hm... maybe adding that to the wrapper script would be a good idea 17:31:38 but then I'd get command line parameters 17:31:48 ah I know... 17:31:50 hehehehe 17:32:54 EFUNGE_OPTS="[option1, option2]" ./efunge 17:33:00 Deewiant, what do you think of that idea? 17:33:07 it has to be done in erlang term format too 17:33:24 I think it's terrible 17:33:42 Deewiant, well it follows established tradition: 17:33:44 for one thing because you can't do that in windows 17:33:45 ERL_COMPILER_OPTIONS='[inline,native,{hipe,[o3]}]' make 17:33:47 for example 17:33:59 Deewiant, you can use set MYENVVAR="FOO" right? 17:34:02 or something like that 17:34:08 don't remember syntax 17:34:39 Deewiant, also can't windows powershell do it? 17:34:44 or is that so powerless? 17:34:51 no, it can't, I just tried 17:34:57 at least not with that syntax 17:35:01 heh 17:35:02 it could have it in some weird syntax 17:35:31 Deewiant, well anyway the wrapper script is a shell script 17:35:35 using portable /bin/sh 17:35:40 it even works with busybox 17:35:49 Deewiant, you would need a custom wrapper script on windows anyway 17:35:54 so it requires posix and is thus non-portable :-P 17:35:59 Deewiant, not at all 17:36:06 you just have to start it in an erlang shell 17:36:11 or write a *.bat or whatever 17:36:15 Deewiant, just I can't write *.bat 17:36:20 I meant the /bin/sh 17:36:46 Deewiant, well... funge is unportable, it requires the concept of "environment variables" 17:37:16 which is in the os module in Erlang, and nothing in that module is guaranteed to be portable 17:37:53 funge doesn't require it, you can just push an empty list if they don't exist 17:38:06 Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/ftSSjH10.html Notice how extremely simple it is 17:38:15 just some sanity checking and setting up some paths 17:38:27 you can't write that in C? 17:38:42 Deewiant, well no, would need fork and execv 17:38:48 which would be less portable 17:38:53 system() 17:38:56 also using C for a wrapper script would be silly 17:39:22 Deewiant, and /bin/sh exists on Windows. Wasn't it POSIX okish or such? ;P 17:39:44 and then there is msys, cygwin and various other ones 17:39:50 /bin/sh cannot exist on windows because "/" is not valid in a path 17:40:08 Deewiant, well yet windows passed POSIX exam iirc? Or at least didn't fail it 17:40:15 I believe it has to exist then 17:40:17 only with extensions 17:40:23 and hacks to workaround stuff like that 17:41:14 well, / works in paths, but it's not a valid root path without something like Services For Unix or msys 17:41:24 C:/windows/system32/notepad.exe works 17:41:24 no, / doesn't work in paths 17:41:33 yeah, but the path isn't that 17:41:36 yes it does in cmd.exe 17:41:36 that's just translated 17:41:44 no it doesn't 17:41:48 it specifically doesn't work in cmd.exe 17:41:55 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 17:42:06 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:42:20 Deewiant, anyway 1) you can write a *.bat file I guess. or 2) You could just do it from inside erlang as the README describes 17:42:23 "cd /" will not work 17:42:40 yes, it's /possible/ 17:42:44 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 17:42:45 cd / works 17:42:58 not here it doesn't 17:43:01 Deewiant, I'm pretty sure cd / works in cmd.exe under windows xp 17:43:05 (I didn't expect it to, but it did) 17:43:07 I'm 99% certain I seen it working 17:43:13 I'm pretty sure it doesn't since I just did it and it didn't 17:43:15 using Swedish windows xp home 17:43:25 "cd /" does absolutely nothing, doesn't error out either though 17:43:29 was a year or so ago 17:43:35 both the notepad thing and cd / worked for me just now 17:43:44 Asztal, windows version? 17:43:46 "cd foo/bar" does work 17:43:48 this is the evil vista 17:43:51 ah 17:43:57 ah, it's a bug then :-P 17:44:11 Well, there is no spec to check against is there Deewiant? 17:44:14 though, I was sure XP supported it :) 17:44:21 anyway... 17:44:27 AnMaster: there may be docs 17:44:53 Deewiant, doing this on windows would be non-trivial anyway 17:45:00 since usually erlang isn't in path there 17:45:05 and it called werl.exe 17:45:37 interesting that 'erl' starts an Eshell then 17:45:54 Deewiant, hm it does? Doesn't match what I was able to find in docs 17:46:08 Deewiant, what version does it state that it is btw? 17:46:13 5.5.5 17:46:21 (I suspect cmd.exe is doing something to explicitly support '/' as a filesystem root, though, since "ls.exe /Users" doesn't work) 17:46:27 Deewiant, I don't think efunge will work on that, Only tested on 5.6.4 17:46:32 hmm 17:46:33 Eshell V5.5.5 (abort with ^G) 17:46:33 1> ^G 17:46:33 Eshell V5.5.5 (abort with ^G) 17:46:33 1> 17:46:40 Deewiant, XD 17:46:43 Deewiant, q(). 17:46:45 may work 17:46:49 takes a second or so 17:46:51 ^C worked 17:46:53 before it actually quits 17:46:56 but, hoorays for ^G 17:47:00 Deewiant, well, I ^G works for me 17:47:06 1> 17:47:06 User switch command 17:47:06 --> 17:47:17 ^G drops me into that mode 17:47:45 where you can start another shell on a local or remote node, jump between existing shells and so on 17:47:55 and quit erlang 17:48:04 Deewiant, no clue why it doesn't work on windows. 17:48:25 Asztal, there is ls.exe? 17:48:27 huh 17:49:02 Deewiant, anyway I'm quite sure erlang will need at least BEAM 5.6.x 17:49:10 probably even 5.6.4 17:49:14 s/erlang/efunge/ 17:49:15 why 17:49:16 (which is last version as of writing this) 17:49:26 Deewiant, because it uses some very very useful recent features 17:49:52 like what 17:50:11 -spec and -type notification are experimentally supported in 5.6.4 at least. Allows better static analysis and easier to find bugs in advance 17:50:22 sed could remove those if needed I guess 17:50:33 Deewiant, apart from that it may or may not use other bits I don't know about 17:50:47 but I think Erlang 5.5 is a different major release 17:50:48 R11B 17:50:54 while 5.6 is R12B 17:51:04 and those can introduce major new features 17:51:23 Deewiant, so it wouldn't surprise me if it broke on the legacy R11B 17:51:41 and my response would be: SOL 17:51:47 since that is outdated by years 17:52:30 statute of limitations? :D 17:52:34 oerjan, ? 17:52:36 well, by one year 17:52:42 and a few months 17:52:46 * AnMaster just went and checked 17:52:53 AnMaster: SOL 17:53:03 oerjan, S*** out of luck 17:53:19 where * count doesn't match real word 17:53:33 I think 17:53:37 actually it does 17:53:39 oh well 17:54:06 i think there are various options there 17:54:11 I've always read it as "so outta luck" 17:54:21 Deewiant, that works too 17:54:27 but I guess "shittily" is the rude form and "sadly" the more common polite form 17:54:32 anyway: you are free to try efunge on R11B, but I won't fix it breaks, recommending R12B 17:54:57 evidently "shit" is the common form, although it doesn't make grammatical sense 17:54:57 when R13B is released I will probably keep R12B compat for a few months or a bit more at least 17:55:02 but then, expletives rarely do 17:57:17 Come to think of it, I could just run fungot's babble-generation locally repeatedly to find that bug faster than just waiting for it to crash. 17:57:19 fizzie: madam president, i should briefly like to focus on the most fundamental human rights. 17:57:55 fungot: Er, certainly, I don't think we have anything against human rights here. 17:58:05 fizzie: first and foremost, stability and security, which already give the commission something to consider, when commissioner palacio brings forward her nuclear package this autumn, that the poorest regions is not exacerbated by another divide linked to the activities of the european union 17:58:24 (It's quite a lot slower with that trace mode enabled.) 17:58:27 fungot: Right, exactly. 17:58:39 maybe I should try and reproduce the bug 17:58:43 Deewiant: mr president, mr poms ruiz, to whom they really do, as the elected representative of a battle of principles, you will find it more difficult to resolve, but it is essential to finding a solution to this particular matter and my views were clearly laid out. nevertheless, i hope that, by taking part in what was said at the first reading. 17:58:45 fungot: WTF 17:59:09 Deewiant: madam president, as an indirect consequence, holding us prisoner on other subjects that are excluded from so many contradictory standpoints. it would be too expensive. in this respect, i should like to remind her and the house' s work just a few days ago here to introduce a uniform control system which is more fnord and export a certain model of society that suits them. it would be very interesting for economists to s 17:59:16 fungot: WTF 17:59:25 It's funny how it alternates between madam/mr all the time. 17:59:30 fizzie: hmm, maybe you could make it cutoff messages in a smarter way 17:59:32 "clearly laid out" my ass 17:59:35 fizzie: i.e. not mid-word 17:59:45 Deewiant: mr president, i would say to those who need to disclose one's inventions before filing for a patent, its aim is that, in 2004, especially in mr poignant' s report, certain elements of the tens, but we cannot ignore. the us government has threatened to move its entire development department and corporate management to another country if it cannot put a stop to. secondly, the establishment of a european parliament and t 17:59:48 fungot: WTF 17:59:49 Deewiant: mr president, the discussion is so interesting and there are a number of people. 17:59:54 meh 17:59:59 fungot: bug out already, will ya 18:00:19 Deewiant: That's just the IRC message length. There's also a limit to the number of words, which should be small enough not to hit the IRC limits. 18:00:44 Maybe it's all those long words. 18:00:48 fizzie: Yes, I know what it is, but as you can see it keeps getting cut off :-) 18:00:53 I don't remember what I set the word limit to. 18:01:22 count the message length and cut off at a word boundary where the wanted message length is exceeded 18:01:28 fizzie: hmm, did I kill it? 18:01:44 fungot: you alive? 18:01:47 oerjan: as i demonstrated during the debate. as regards priority 1, namely broadening the scope and structure of the directorate-general for transport essentially deals with this very difficult issue. a solution must be sought initially on a voluntary basis. it is a pity. 18:02:15 in a manner of speaking 18:02:19 fungot: WTF 18:02:22 Deewiant: mr president, many pensioners paint or create works of art and antiques'. according to a report by the independent opinion of the committee, issues on labour law and free and fair way, in spite of what mr bouwman said. in fact, with the game of musical chairs that is being done. 18:02:33 fungot: I'm not a president 18:03:02 Actually it should be stopping quite early if I'm reading that source right. (Except that it will only stop when the context is suitable for ending a sentence.) 18:03:05 Deewiant: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, first of all that is bad comes from elsewhere; this is why i am against increasing taxation on employment, under the present legislation. both treaties are based on different understandings of human health and the environment, but also for animal welfare where many millions of new jobs as it did not do is to base programming on a political solution to end spam. let me also address t 18:03:16 fungot: I'm still not a president 18:03:23 Deewiant: question no 30 by ( fnord/ 2001. i can allow the exemption for mortgages are all adopted, and comparable objectives have been set, but whose idea of political responsibility observed during the process of 2004. 18:03:38 Deewiant: that's just what you want us to believe, Ms. Halonen 18:03:39 fungot: Who's fnord 18:03:43 Deewiant: it is easy to see that there is a job we will have to be addressed: greece, spain, greece and spain. 18:04:06 oerjan: oh noes, you caught me 18:04:14 Haha: "Greece, Spain, Greece and Spain -- a joh we will have to address!" 18:04:20 fungot: WTF 18:04:49 fizzie: it's counting commas as tokens? 18:05:01 fungot: WTF 18:05:02 oerjan: Yes, punctuation is separate tokens. 18:05:21 So it's just got a context of ", spain," when it generated that second 'greece'. 18:05:52 so i thought 18:06:00 fungot: Did you just ignore Deewiant, or crash? 18:06:23 fizzie: mr president, the pensioners of the different legal frameworks would probably make it very clear that the eu must develop a process, namely a fnord victory for president eyadema. on a financial basis, nor to care about their neighbour. the socialists say yes. allow me to outline the way in which you will accept these amendments, nos 1, 2, 5 and 6 i can support the draft act which is before us here today, of her excellen 18:06:29 waa 18:06:35 I don't like the politician-fungot 18:06:36 Deewiant: Yours was a fnord victory. 18:06:38 Deewiant: i wish to ask you, mr president-in-office, you did hear me say that i fully endorse what mr salafranca has just said. 18:06:49 fungot: now who the hell is mr salafranca 18:06:57 Deewiant: mr president, i was in fact our motion for a resolution calling for a committee of inquiry into the current cohesion policy. it is my opinion that the controls that are applied to economies whose needs remain very different. 18:07:13 fungot: you didn't answer my question 18:07:14 Deewiant: mr president, i am sorry, in particular candidate countries. 18:07:16 Deewiant: That would be José Ignacio Salafranca Sánchez-Neyra. 18:07:38 not in wikipedia 18:07:45 oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Salafranca_S%C3%A1nchez-Neira 18:07:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_Salafranca_Sánchez-Neira 18:07:49 (english one) 18:08:04 The page title doesn't include the "Ignacio" part. 18:08:05 fungot is sorry; but only in particular candidate countries 18:08:10 oh wait 18:08:21 Deewiant: mr president, mr president, is extremely limited. the commission feels that to increase the number of subjects, the european council decided at its meeting on 30 april, or even this very budget assuming the administrative costs. moreover, i do not believe it would have been preferable and more effective fnord and monitoring powers. your support for our approach as set out in the end to violence, subjected to terrible 18:08:24 wp only searches for starting parts? 18:08:43 fungot: Yes, I think it would have been less effective fnord 18:09:41 I think you're being ignored again. Okay, I don't think it makes sense to do more of this on-channel; I'll test it elsewhere. 18:10:08 fizzie: I suspect you can reconstruct, from your logs, everything that was said to it before it crashed 18:10:18 Yes, but it shouldn't matter. 18:10:22 so just keep throwing that at it 18:10:23 Since it doesn't look at the input at all. 18:10:27 ah. 18:10:43 Eyadema was an interesting guy too 18:11:46 Gnassingbé is such a household name 18:16:51 Deewiant, haven't you read fungot source? 18:16:59 http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 18:17:18 Deewiant, being a befunge expert (author of mycology) I assume you will understand it right away :P 18:17:32 (like you see to expect me to do with mycology) 18:17:42 bbl food 18:17:46 Should probably make a real web page for fungot. 18:17:46 AnMaster: mr president, commissioner, for this legislature. we have member states who so wish, to reduce pollution by 60% over the last 20 years this industry has one of the questions, so i shall not go into the details of your speeches, ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of the commission to ensure that the principle of mutual recognition of decisions to expel third-country citizens. i congratulate joe fnord and fnord and catalon 18:18:48 I didn't know there was a Joe Fnord in the Parliament. And I wonder if it crashed; it's certainly taking a long time to answer. 18:18:53 AnMaster: mr president, i want to stress the extremely high social expectations, we are being ideological. they are told off for living too long and that it is only natural, when already in a europe that is not industry which determines the courts that involve an interpretation of the new policies, such as tag replacement, without adding any ifs or buts. the report reveals a motley fnord of organisations, which are far from mat 18:18:58 No, it's just the slow. 18:19:20 fizzie: mr president, with the participation of the president-in-office. of course, under the existing substance regulations of 1993. the final point i am addressing our fellow parliamentarians from macedonia should be able to have olaf's report so that chapters for the individual sectors. secondly, we attach great importance to us that there could be this consensus and that the meat is from animals which were tested and whethe 18:20:06 ^echo are we here yet? 18:20:07 are we here yet? are we here yet? 18:20:38 fungot, your prolixity is overly quixotic >:( 18:20:53 Asztal: madam president, mr posselt, let me say that we should take the decision we need to look at the simple trend, i have one difficulty which is not covered by specific community legislation, so ias can only be achieved by applying lower rates of growth, employment and the unwieldiness of the procedures, favouring a more competitive and makes his company more competitive. everyone agrees on that, are dying as a result of ad 18:21:59 presumably http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernd_Posselt 18:23:33 also an interesting guy it seems... 18:26:45 The bot does sound quite much like a politician, but maybe it's not overly interesting babbling. 18:27:26 fizzie, you want low-overhead tracing? 18:27:49 * AnMaster considers that 18:28:10 interesting idea 18:28:38 you want to append them to a buffer or such, and then let another thread format the messages 18:28:57 (this would be a bad idea in erlang, because every thread have a separate heap 18:29:41 (so a lot of data copying) 18:32:58 Heh, nice output: "let us not talk of positive discrimination more effective than for other types of intensive animal husbandry, the commission is willing to launch pre-emptive nuclear strikes" 18:33:09 Pre-emptive nuclear strikes does not sound like the right solution to me. 18:33:18 fungot: Are you sure about that? 18:33:19 fizzie: without being afraid of the difficulties currently facing the union. 18:33:34 Ouch that bad 18:33:40 fungot, ... 18:33:41 AnMaster: madam president, with reference to mr pronk on his report which is evidently to establish the existence of the internal market. 18:33:47 Hopefully no-one's going to put fungot in charge. 18:33:52 fungot, you got my gender wrong 18:33:55 fizzie: mr president, i welcome the resolve that was shown here today by the college of commissioners has already decided, was literally betrayed at the last moment, i woke up, i am happy to support, veiled criticism and open criticism. this evening's debate is certainly the case for amendments nos 3 and 4, so that we can all see the work we do with small-scale fishermen. i await mr henderson's answer on burma was rather meanin 18:34:02 AnMaster: mr president, i am aware that this is all the more necessary to seek equal treatment for agency workers in ireland. 18:34:05 better 18:34:39 who is mr pronk? 18:34:48 fizzie, where did you get this data from did you say? 18:35:12 oerjan, what about mr henderson? 18:35:32 ah, maybe Jan Pronk 18:35:39 oerjan: Bartho Pronk, actually. 18:35:47 (PPE-DE) 18:35:50 eh? 18:36:11 AnMaster: It's the European Parliament speeches. Those are translated to all N official languages; I just used the English version. 18:36:12 hm not in wp 18:36:16 fizzie, I would prefer telephone or discworld over this 18:36:45 Years 1996-2006, apparently. 18:37:04 fizzie, do they speak to presidents all the time? 18:37:07 And only those speakers whose names start with a letter from A to F. 18:37:26 It's the President of the Commission, I think. 18:37:42 ah 18:38:00 or parliament? 18:38:14 Yes, actually. 18:38:29 I just grepped the data a bit and saw "AFFILIATION="President of the Commission"", but that was just one of the speakers. 18:40:03 henderson is probably too common a name 18:40:22 Just about every speaker starts with "Mr President" or some-such, and since we grouped those so that one "paragraph" (which is what fungot outputs) is one complete "speech"/statement, that's what fungot does too. 18:40:26 fizzie: mr president, i wish to put on record that our starting point and encouraging that a solution is not very effective. 18:41:16 that's relevant, sort of 18:41:29 fungot: You're such a complainer. 18:41:41 fizzie: mr president, mr camisn asensio, things are really up and running for 8 years, we have to realise that this is our parliament, a citizen many of which are very sensible. that very fact illustrates the european vagueness of the report. 18:42:25 Yes, the politician-fungot is not very funny at all. But at least it sounds like it's speaking and not like it's reading a book. 18:42:34 fizzie: mr president, i will begin with the nine technical amendments. amendments nos 12, 65, 66, 67, 69, 70 and 71. the possible effects on other community policies, new proposals will have to submit every three years. 18:43:32 but he cannot count 18:44:13 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:46:48 I've been looking at the Gutenberg authors I happen to have here, but none of them sound like they'd make an especially interesting data source. 18:51:25 fizzie: try lewis carroll 18:51:39 and james joyce 18:52:59 lewis carroll should be fun 18:53:40 fungot: Well, you heard them. Do Lewis Carroll now. 18:54:09 Or are you ignoring me or something? 18:54:59 ^rot13 fgvyy jbexf 18:55:22 still works 18:55:28 Ignoring, I guess. 18:55:34 fungot: Bah. 18:55:42 Oh, wait! 18:55:47 No read permissions to those files. 18:55:52 Forgot to give g+r to them. 18:56:14 fungot: Can you read it now? 18:56:15 fizzie: the witnesses proved, without fnord,' he went on, " the conclusion is fallacious." 18:57:20 fungot: What's that mean? 18:57:22 fizzie: he saw them drooping here and there among them, though i don't want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as they put them upon the table, merrily running round and round after her own shawl, which was still patiently fnord its fnord!" 18:58:38 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:59:14 the fnord solution may not work very well with an author reknown for inventing words... 18:59:15 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:00:01 oerjan: It mapped 5703 words to "fnord". 19:00:33 is that much? 19:00:44 Deewiant, by the way to show that I wouldn't oppose MVRS done correctly and properly specced my funge-space changes for ATHR are designed so the change for adding multiple funge spaces should be simple 19:00:57 I'm designing the API with that in mind 19:01:42 fizzie, what books? 19:01:56 fungot: say 'cheese' 19:01:57 oerjan: there was no " one, two! and through and through her head till she felt quite certain he would only refer to his fnord code, and read it " some x are y"? 19:02:24 oerjan: It's 3.4 % of the tokens in the data. For comparison purposes, in the irclogs it mapped only 1.2 % of the tokens to fnord. And irclogs have lots of unique flutzpahs too. 19:02:30 Only books by Lewis Carroll I read are Alice in wonderland, and Allice through the looking glass 19:02:34 both in Swedish translations too 19:02:37 "some x are y"? are you including his math? :D 19:02:41 so. I can't identify anything 19:03:18 The books were: "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland", "Phantasmagoria and Other Poems", "Sylvie and Bruno", "The Game of Logic", "The Hunting of the Snark" and "Through the Looking-Glass" 19:03:32 "The Hunting of the Snark"? 19:03:37 the game of logic looks suspicious 19:03:42 The "some x are y" is from the game of logic, yes. 19:03:51 sounds like hunting of the fnord... 19:04:30 fizzie: remind me what the fnord-mapping was all about 19:04:58 Deewiant: All words that occur only once are mapped to a special token "UNKNOWN", and fungot converts that to text as "fnord". 19:04:59 fizzie: " i will call on the earl. 19:05:20 fizzie: Why? 19:05:22 snark surely occurs more than once though 19:05:40 And Snarks have been seen at least in a short story by Niven, it's somewhat famous. 19:06:01 Deewiant: To cut down the size of the lexicon, mostly. Also to make the output more silly. 19:06:37 meh 19:06:40 snarks? not bandersnatchi? 19:07:38 oerjan: Those are everywhere in the Known Space books, but I think there was a Snark too. 19:07:57 I'm not absolutely certain, though. 19:09:46 oerjan: At least in the story "Like Banquo's Ghost" (from the Convergent Series collection) there's a space ship called "Snarkhunter #3". 19:10:19 huh. fizzie you make *less* sense than fungot now.. 19:10:20 AnMaster: all this i saw from the open window of the warden's breakfast-saloon, looking across the garden, examining the fastenings of the drawing-room window. 19:10:31 No other Snarks, though; I've misremembered, it seems. 19:10:52 fizzie, which books are that from ^ 19:11:14 is* 19:12:32 AnMaster: Seems to be mostly from that "Sylvie and Bruno" book. Haven't read it. 19:13:54 Still, whenever I feed it books the output also sounds like a book, not like someone talking. 19:16:21 I should feed it some chatting, but I have a smaller supply of that available. 19:16:27 Maybe I should try Wikipedia "talk" pages. :p 19:17:27 fizzie, no... that would be suicidal amount of "consensus version" 19:17:32 be a* 19:18:10 Youtube video comments, then; I hear there's a lot of thoughtful debate there. 19:18:40 * oerjan gasps 19:21:18 fizzie, that is *worse* 19:21:37 oh and even worse: /b/ of four chan 19:21:38 I guess 19:21:45 Or maybe spam! I think I gzipped some ten thousand messages somewhere just in case I need a sample spam mail sometimes. 19:22:01 fizzie, what department were you at? 19:22:06 also spam changes over time 19:22:07 a lot 19:22:29 * oerjan wonders what fizzie is taking 19:22:31 fizzie, and we don't want all the obscene stuff 19:22:33 Yes, well, not for effective spam *filtering*, just generally. 19:23:08 Don't you ever get a craving for some spam? 19:23:25 SPAM SPAM WONDERFUL SPAM 19:23:33 fizzie, no 19:26:16 lol, a /b/ markov chain would be indistinguishable from the real thing. 19:27:16 ehird, yeah 19:28:09 I've always thought that the best way to run a markov chain is to analyze a forum/mailing list, make it post on that mailing list with its results, and start up about 10 instances. 19:28:16 After a while they just start spewing out nonsense based on their own failures 19:28:32 Okay, I'll try one more author, let's see if it (a) works and (b) you recognize it. The source text at least should be pretty recognizable. 19:28:38 fungot: Let's see what you've got. 19:28:40 fizzie: fnord with a fnord negroid mouth, pulled forth a dirty, crumpled paper and handed it to me, for there are elements i had not independently suspected before, though we had no cause to think the regions beyond the range of modern human knowledge. 19:29:49 fungot: Give us a second example too, okay? 19:29:50 fizzie: miss tilton, comparing all possible fnord and if we be fnord and besides, was not beyond normal credibility. 19:30:01 Well, that wasn't very useful. 19:30:08 Pretty fnordy text this time. 19:35:13 fungot: huh? 19:35:14 oerjan: even the small piece refused to grow cool, it soon had the college in a state of 19:35:27 fungot: good grief 19:35:30 oerjan: by h. p. lovecraft and c. m... eddy jr. 19:35:37 fungot: Hey, you gave it away! 19:35:42 fizzie: at my violent start the speaker paused a moment before there had been a gorgeous sunset, and judged it was a million or ten million or fifty million years ago and that of only thirty million years old. 19:35:53 and i was _just_ guessing lovecraft too :( 19:36:18 (although i haven't read any) 19:36:20 Should've stripped those parts out of them books, but couldn't be bothered. 19:42:05 -!- Mony has quit ("Ne regrettons pas le passé, ne nous préoccupons pas de l'avenir : le sage vit dans le présent."). 19:47:48 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:59:32 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 20:09:10 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:09:13 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:14:33 -!- Slereah has joined. 20:14:33 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:18:13 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:21:11 -!- Slereah has joined. 20:42:48 -!- atrapado has joined. 20:57:10 -!- Linus` has joined. 21:00:14 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 21:00:14 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | PING. 21:08:49 ah the wiki is back 21:10:36 hey oerjan 21:11:32 -!- LinuS has quit (Connection timed out). 21:13:06 hi psygnisfive 21:13:44 hi oerjan 21:13:46 hi psygnisfive 21:13:55 oklopol <3 21:14:33 hi oklopol 21:17:59 was wondering about turning boolean expressions into maxterm normal form 21:18:04 after ages of thinking and pondering 21:18:10 maxterm? 21:18:20 i realized the general case just amounts to enumerating the whole truth table :| 21:18:38 anding ors 21:19:43 maxterms are when you and or clauses, kinda taking the maximum of the truth values of each clause 21:19:50 minterms are when you and them 21:20:03 the two normal forms 21:20:18 i need the maxterm one so i can convert to 3-sat 21:21:51 the problem with making unimplementable turing tarpits is even *i* feel i'm wasting my time 21:21:54 only slightly though 21:22:09 hey oklopol, oerjan, didnt you want to learn something about like.. syntax?? 21:22:14 well the conversion can blow up exponentially 21:23:03 btw is there anything new and interesting on the wiki? 21:23:07 i haven't read it for ages 21:23:16 only recently got reinterested in esolangs 21:23:54 well, actively reinterested, i'm always *interested*, but i'm not always using my brain for esolang-related ponderings 21:23:59 psygnisfive: NO 21:24:14 i remember you and oerjan saying something about itd be interesting to learn such and such. :| 21:24:48 all is interesting to learn that is abstract and useless. 21:24:51 * oerjan has a fever 21:25:21 lots of people think syntax is useless :P 21:25:24 i don't recall saying anything like that, i have only asked about *phonetics* 21:25:37 do they really? then perhaps i should try it 21:27:17 oerjan: do you have insights on the 3-sat conversion? 21:28:12 well you introduce extra variables, i think 21:28:25 hmm 21:28:40 (a v b) 21:28:41 => 21:28:52 (a v b v c) ^ (a v b v C) 21:29:02 (using noprob negation) 21:29:18 and C can actually be used as the temp of any amount of clauses 21:29:25 because why couldn't it 21:29:40 er i'm not sure of _that_ 21:29:45 oh wait 21:29:52 in the case you show there, it can 21:30:17 but not for handling splitting 21:30:31 yeah 21:30:34 at splitting 21:30:36 like 21:30:42 (a v b v c v d) 21:30:47 you'd to something like 21:30:48 (a v b v c v d) => (a v b v e) ^ (c v d v E) 21:30:56 err 21:31:01 oh 21:31:10 i didn't think of that 21:31:10 not sure if i got that right 21:31:28 that looks right 21:31:37 ah yes phonetics 21:31:39 but i can't put into words why 21:31:39 thats what it was 21:31:52 also, oklopol 21:32:00 if e is true, then c or d must be true 21:32:09 if e is false, then a or b must be true 21:32:09 theres a theory of syntax from a guy at UPenn, Aravind Joshi, called Tree Adjoining Grammar 21:32:14 its all about tree rewriting :D 21:32:31 and e can be chosen arbitrarily, but here it is important that it is used nowhere else 21:32:37 yes 21:32:51 psygnisfive: tree rewriting!! 21:32:57 yeah its cool :o 21:33:06 pretty cool yeah 21:33:10 it lets you do all sorts of crazy shit with non-local dependencies 21:33:12 but how about REWRITING HYPERGRAPHS?!? 21:33:18 well 21:33:30 i do know that some models of dependency grammar are based on /multigraphs/ 21:33:38 i dont know what a hypergraph is tho 21:33:44 oerjan: seems you had quite a lot of insight, thanks 21:33:57 i probably wouldn't have come up with that without giving it tons of thought 21:34:18 oh i see what a hypergraph is 21:34:19 interesting 21:35:21 hm 21:35:31 i think i might be using hypergraphs in my syntactic formalism 21:36:01 maybe not. 21:36:02 (a v b v c v d v e v f v g), i should just split this as evenly as possible, right? (a v b v c v d v temp1) (e v f v g v Temp1) 21:36:03 i dont know. D: 21:36:12 and then recurse 21:36:18 oklopol whatchu doin? 21:36:38 psygnisfive: i'm doing small-scale research so i can start implementing noprob 21:36:49 what on 21:38:17 oklopol: well i've seen the reduction SAT -> 3SAT at some time... 21:38:23 (a v b v c v d v temp1) ^ (e v f v g v Temp1) ==> (a v b v temp4) ^ (c v temp2 v Temp4) ^ (d v temp1 v Temp2) ^ (e v f v temp3) ^ (g v Temp1 v Temp 3) 21:38:48 basically just recursing on the resulting subclauses 21:39:07 psygnisfive: what on what? 21:39:17 what are you researching 21:39:46 i'm researching the subject of 21:39:52 :P 21:39:57 oklopol: looks good, of course there may be some more elegant way 21:40:03 -!- ryanakca has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:40:48 oerjan: well it's a logarithmic growth in size 21:40:55 so i'd say it's enough 21:41:13 as i'm already doing exponential work when creating the sat... 21:42:12 umm 21:42:16 or is it logarithmic... 21:42:47 the reduction is O(lg n) deep, because i always split the clause 21:42:59 but i'm also doubling the work each time 21:43:15 because there are twice as many clauses on the next level 21:43:43 so O(lg n) steps, exponential growth in size of one step, that would make O(n) in layman's math 21:43:48 when creating the sat, do you mean reducing from general boolean expression to conjunctive normal form? 21:43:58 yes 21:44:03 because i think some of the same tricks can be used there 21:44:54 introducing variables to split things cheaply 21:45:12 well i was just thinking, if you have just a few clauses of disjunctive normal form, the conjunctive normal form will have an exponential number of clauses 21:45:50 because the numbers of clauses are 2^|variables|'s complements if i'm not mistaken 21:45:54 oh 21:46:02 introducing variables. 21:46:05 goddamnit 21:46:11 why didn't i think of that 21:46:16 :P 21:46:55 in fact i think you can start this by doing the same thing to the large disjunction 21:47:13 err what? 21:47:14 then you end up with only relatively small ones 21:47:30 what large disjunction 21:47:50 if you start with a disjunctive normal form 21:47:57 ah 21:47:58 yeah 21:48:32 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 21:49:10 my initial approach was to try and use boolean algebra to reduce things to the normal form 21:49:25 but that's quite limited 21:49:51 yeah because it blows up 21:49:54 yes 21:50:03 * ehird realises that his semantic wiki project thing is already realised by RDF, and he just needs to hack up an interface to viewing/editing rdf 21:50:05 yay 21:50:15 after all, if you could convert things to conj. form then by duality you could convert it to disj. form 21:50:27 yes 21:50:47 and if you could do the latter without blowing up, satisfiability becomes easy to solve 21:51:08 it does? 21:51:33 is satisfiability trivial in disjunctive normal form? 21:51:39 yes. because checking a disjunctive normal form for satisfiability is just checking each clause 21:51:39 hmph, i don't know shit. 21:51:58 if any of them is satisfiable, then the whole is 21:52:01 if not, not 21:52:05 right 21:52:56 how does this not make it impossible to do the conversion with newly introduced variables? 21:53:18 ehird: ah, Reality Distortion Fields 21:53:44 oerjan: no, http://www.w3.org/RDF/ :- 21:53:45 P 21:54:05 (Note: It isn't always XML, there's a non-eyeball-renching plaintext serialization of it too... thank god.) 21:54:19 * oerjan loves picking the wrong de-acronym 21:54:27 :-D 21:55:07 oklopol: the thing here is that when introducing variables while keeping satisfiability you always introduce new _conjunctions_ outermost 21:55:38 so it gets worse, not better, as far as actually solving it goes 21:55:53 and you cannot get to DNF by adding new vars? 21:56:06 you have to realize i don't actually see how any of this is realized :P 21:56:12 realizeeeee 21:56:29 if you tried to do the dual i guess you would find you preserve the dual of satisfiability instead 21:56:42 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 21:56:58 and _that_ is hard to solve on disjunctive normal form, but easy on conjunctive 21:57:22 ah, find something that does *not* satisfy it 21:57:30 okay, it's all becoming clear now. 21:57:39 yeah 21:58:11 but 21:58:23 so err 21:58:46 (a ^ b) v (c ^ d), how would i turn this upside down into CNF? 21:59:13 i think once you have it down to just two terms you'll have to use boolean algebra a bit 21:59:22 so, distributive law 21:59:26 umm okay 21:59:27 let's see 21:59:46 (A v B)' v (C v D)' 21:59:49 and 22:00:00 ((A v B)' ^ (C v D))' 22:00:02 umm 22:00:04 ((A v B' ^ (C v D))' 22:00:08 but that's no use 22:00:09 and fuck 22:00:13 ((A v B) ^ (C v D))' 22:00:16 . 22:00:20 hmmhmm 22:00:57 um it's: (a ^ b) v (c ^ d) => (a v c) ^ (a v d) ^ (b v c) ^ (b v d) 22:01:54 right, so to not it, i have to list all the *other* possibilities? 22:02:18 not? 22:02:24 not as a verb 22:02:25 negate 22:02:33 complement 22:02:36 dunnnnnno 22:02:40 to negate a boolean expression you use deMorgan's laws 22:03:20 switch ^ and v, and negate the arguments recursively 22:03:50 why does that add new clauses 22:03:56 it doesn't 22:04:14 are we trying to do the same thing... 22:04:21 :D 22:04:55 basically, you usually use deMorgan's law to get all negation down to just the variables before doing anything else 22:04:56 what exactly did you negate in (a ^ b) v (c ^ d) to get that next thing? 22:05:21 i didn't negate, i used the distributive law for v over ^ 22:05:29 well that makes more sense 22:05:48 (they're dual, so distribution goes both ways) 22:05:55 okay, yeah, i see it now 22:06:33 how about something more complex then, say i simply have (a ^ b ^ c) v (d ^ e ^ f) 22:06:39 well 22:06:53 i guess i can use the same law... 22:06:59 i got to thinking that this might be a bit wrong if you have deeply nested things 22:07:25 a better way may be to introduce variables _standing_ for the subterms 22:07:48 i think that's how the reduction NP -> SAT usually goes anyway 22:07:51 yes, that's what i tried initially 22:08:01 and NP means? 22:08:08 naughty proposition? 22:08:10 any NP problem 22:08:15 ahh 22:08:59 so then, what we want is a clause that implies abc == a ^ b ^ c 22:09:11 yeah 22:09:23 we somehow add some structure somewhere 22:09:38 that makes (a ^ b ^ c) true exactly when abc is true 22:09:40 this is easy since equivalence is a boolean relation 22:09:47 and then use abc as that subterm 22:09:54 oh 22:10:08 right, i used that reduction in my noprob examples 22:10:31 (a <=> b) <=> ((a ^ b) v (A ^ B)) 22:10:39 both true or both false 22:10:48 except you want it conjunctive, presumably 22:10:51 right 22:10:52 so 22:11:03 ((a v B) ^ (A v b)) 22:11:14 which i cannot really explain. 22:11:30 errrr is that even right 22:11:47 ah 22:12:03 if the vars were different 22:12:11 then one of those would definitely be false 22:12:15 so okay, yeah, that's it 22:12:27 so 22:12:29 you can get it with distributivity, then all the a ^ A terms disappear because they're inconsistent 22:12:43 yup 22:13:00 but i like to explain things rather than prove them, because i'm a softie 22:13:07 okay, so 22:13:29 if i have the subterm (a ^ b ^ c) 22:13:33 in a larger thingie 22:14:21 err... okay now i'm thinking i'd add an "^ (abc <=> (a ^ b ^ c))" on the toplevel and substitute abc for all (a ^ b ^ c)'s 22:14:29 yeah 22:14:56 the thing i ripped abc out of is now definitely smaller 22:16:09 but the problem is, when i've removed all the substructures 22:16:24 i have ands on the toplevel, anding up all the equivalences 22:16:36 yep, and that's good 22:16:43 ... 22:16:50 yes 22:16:53 of course it is 22:17:04 it's just i keep flipping ands and ors together. 22:17:23 but hey 22:17:30 umm 22:17:42 (abc <=> (a ^ b ^ c)) 22:17:53 guide me through this 22:17:54 basically 22:18:02 i first do the flippedy 22:18:04 and get like 22:18:26 note if (a ^ b ^ c) were something larger you could always split it up more 22:18:30 (abc v (a ^ b ^ c)') ^ (Abc v (a ^ b ^ c)) 22:18:41 ohh, i can distribute 22:19:03 err 22:19:31 (abc v (a ^ b ^ c)') ^ (Abc v a) ^ (Abc v b) ^ (Abc v c) 22:19:36 rright? 22:19:42 but the leftmost one 22:19:57 the left half needs a deMorgan 22:20:02 (abc v A v B v C) ^ (Abc v a) ^ (Abc v b) ^ (Abc v c) ? 22:20:07 yeah 22:20:10 yay 22:20:30 okay, i'm pretty sure i could do the conversion manually now 22:20:55 so i can probably automatize it with a bit of further consideration 22:21:10 -!- cathyal has joined. 22:21:27 thanks, this has been eye-opening 22:22:05 i think this is about half the proof that SAT _is_ NP-complete. the other half is turning a Turing machine into a boolean circuit 22:22:52 umm, with a finite playground? 22:22:55 anyone worked on a brainfuck compiler 22:23:08 polynomial size in the input 22:23:11 oh oh oh 22:23:30 that's how it's proven that SAT is np-complete without reducing it to anything 22:23:38 turing machine 22:23:51 Still trying to get fungot to crash, but I think he's losing hope: 22:23:51 what are you guys talking about 22:23:52 00:22:01 fungot: Crash! 22:23:53 00:22:02 fizzie: my feelings toward these shelves cannot be described there is no hope. then, 22:23:53 fizzie: " bragging rights" out of " scary dead grandma made us fake the stamp" stickers 22:23:54 fizzie: the environment.' environments ( better referred to as ' characters.' 22:23:54 fizzie: i'll give you mine if you want 22:23:55 turing complete machines? 22:24:04 my algo book just said something reeeally vague 22:24:36 cathyal: oklopol is trying to invent a language based on an NP-complete problem 22:24:44 oh please 22:24:44 NOT 22:24:45 lol 22:24:54 trying to *implement*, the language is ready 22:25:03 it's practically unimplementable 22:25:14 yes, that's the beauty of implementing it 22:25:18 but that has never stopped oklopol 22:25:37 :P 22:26:01 cise's parsing is most likely np-complete 22:26:12 i should try proving that 22:26:31 fizzie: are you not succeeding? maybe something other than just chatting is required 22:27:05 So far it just chatting has been enough, but it only occurs rarely. 22:27:09 two exams tomorrow, and not about 3-sat, perhaps i should sleep a bit -> 22:27:25 -!- zbrown has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:27:29 -!- zbrown has joined. 22:27:44 I'm sure I'd get it to crash pretty quickly if I just feed "fungot\nfungot\nfungot\n" as the input without involving an IRC server, but that would feel like cheating. 22:28:12 night oklopol 22:28:13 so 22:28:16 So I've just been talking with it. 22:28:17 whose worked on haskell 22:28:25 or implemented symbolic languages 22:28:27 haskell haskell haskell 22:29:04 i have half of a brainfuck interpreter in haskell laying around 22:29:23 my usual vaporware 22:30:27 I've got half of a Befunge interpreter in Haskell, it's my default "testing a new language" program. 22:30:27 fungot: CRASH 22:30:36 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:30:38 oerjan: ive got balls of steel? 22:30:43 is there an esoteric OS? 22:30:47 would be fun :o 22:30:57 fungot: DAMN YOU 22:30:58 oerjan: undefined local variable or two 22:31:18 (It's back to irclogs from the politician-talk, if you didn't guess.) 22:31:22 Linus`: the idea crops up frequently 22:32:34 cathyal: somehow the languages implemented here tend not to be symbolic. 22:33:20 fizzie: i don't know, that _could_ be Bush saying that, don't you think? 22:33:28 except in the sense that most of the instructions end up being symbols in the other sense of the word :) 22:34:01 actually what is a symbolic language, precisely? 22:34:03 oerjan: Not the "undefined local variable" one. 22:34:14 fizzie: maybe not. 22:34:17 oerjan: nice 22:36:13 i recall the Reader[T] monads are considered nice for environments. i think there are some tutorials. 22:36:39 Hey, I think I crasheded it finally. 22:36:58 also, #haskell is a very friendly channel too, although i haven't been there in a while 22:37:29 fungot: you dead? 22:37:52 hi cathyal. 22:39:00 hi ehird 22:39:03 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:39:27 -!- fungot has joined. 22:40:34 There's a two-megabyte log for me to look at now. Later. 22:40:42 now we wait for the results of the autopsy 22:42:46 There's a lot of negative numbers in the stack, and it's somewhere there in the tokens-to-text code. Have to sleep now, the corpse will still be there tomorrow too. 22:52:54 no respect for the dead :( 22:53:21 but but ... it's for science! 22:53:29 right fungot? 22:53:29 oerjan: is it possible to do all the design :)... when some of the implementations. 22:53:33 and did you get fungot's permission? 22:53:33 Asztal: what's a metasyntactic variable there. 22:56:39 also, fungot is not dead. 22:56:40 oerjan: are you a number of much higher-level concurrency abstractions and some other 22:57:07 fungot: i couldn't say 22:57:08 oerjan: helsinki.fi cs entrance exam is coding instead of surfing? 22:57:25 fungot: shocking, i know 22:57:26 oerjan: which then got reddit'd or something. 23:03:58 asztal, are you hungarian? 23:05:02 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:05:31 -!- Judofyr has joined. 23:06:47 psygnisfive: no, but I am learning that language 23:08:38 ok 23:09:20 how did you know? do you know this word somehow? 23:09:59 * oerjan recalls assuming Asztal was hungarian before 23:10:43 thought occurred: 23:10:52 is there some kinda time transition thingie 23:11:03 somewhere around these times 23:11:27 what 23:11:40 you know, like you turn the knob of the clock 23:11:43 around and around 23:11:48 happens a few times per year 23:12:03 next week 23:12:10 okay. 23:12:11 thanks. 23:12:13 sleep. 23:12:14 -> 23:12:31 lol 23:17:55 night oklopol 23:18:06 asztal: the sz spelling is very hungarian 23:18:24 any combination of s and z is hungarian looking 23:19:14 ah, I see 23:19:37 I usually find that it's polish when I see sz :) 23:19:40 its like how you can identify finnish by its excessive double vowels, double consonants, and umlauts EVERYWHERE 23:19:49 gy is very hungarian imo 23:20:03 or dutch by its vowel pairs, ij, and short works 23:20:24 words* 23:20:35 gy looks hungarian indeed 23:20:37 or japanese 2008-10-20: 00:04:19 -!- Slereah has joined. 00:04:19 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:16:43 -!- Linus` has changed nick to Linus. 00:28:25 -!- Linus has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 00:42:13 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 00:52:27 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:59:00 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:20:29 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 02:01:10 http://www.crazymonkeygames.com/fullscreen.php?game=Pandemic-2 // this game is far more fun than it should be given that the goal is to exterminate humanity. 02:03:51 Pandemic is actually ^pretty meh 02:04:02 Once you get how it works, there's no challenge 02:19:47 -!- cathyal has quit. 02:32:08 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:32:44 -!- Judofyr has joined. 02:33:42 lol @ ctcp ping in topic 02:41:59 -!- lament has joined. 02:42:11 optbot: o hi 02:42:12 lament: is amount of coffee consumed actually related to amount of sleep? 02:42:21 it's proportional! 02:44:14 hi people. 02:51:27 interestingly, there have been some ideas about how to most effectively waken up with coffee when you're getting sleepy 02:51:30 the suggestion is 02:51:41 drink a strong cup of coffee and nap for about 15 minutes to half an hour 02:51:50 by the time you wake up, the caffeine will be kicking in in full force 02:52:12 and having napped, you've gotten some sleep thus reducing your sleepiness 02:52:48 psygnisfive: meh 02:53:02 bsmntbombdood: ive been wondering 02:53:04 i have a solution of caffiene for iv use 02:53:05 you = queer? 02:53:26 well iv caffeine is always a solution 02:53:26 psygnisfive: depends what you mean by queer 02:53:26 or im 02:53:42 do you fuck the same sex as yourself ever 02:54:02 psygnisfive: no, but on a technicality 02:54:13 you dont have sex? 02:54:21 :p 02:54:26 you know what i mean 02:54:29 i presume you're a guy 02:54:34 i'm bi 02:54:38 ok 02:56:43 so you me and oklopol could have a threesome. :D 02:56:56 hells yes 02:57:18 itd be some sort of crazy esorgy 03:01:12 um 03:01:14 http://www.ectomo.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/footpussy.jpg 03:01:20 i think that might count as esoteric sex 03:01:47 Definitely. 03:06:15 * GregorR stabs everything. 03:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I don't name my software like that. 03:07:57 * zbrown stabs all operating systems 03:10:46 psygnisfive: do you drink coffee with sugar? 03:11:05 yes 03:11:22 sugar kicks in very quickly 03:11:36 blech 03:11:42 coffee with sugar is terrible 03:11:50 you must hate cuban coffee then 03:21:12 i like coffee 03:21:17 nothing but coffee beens and water 03:21:40 especially delicious when extracted under high pressure 03:24:18 espresso is indeed delicious 03:39:45 i just solved the halting problem! 03:40:15 er, nevermind, i was wrong 03:47:50 :) 04:07:32 -!- immibis has joined. 04:29:40 It's time to play "spot the GIMPing"! 04:29:46 http://codu.org/pics/other/pec2.jpg // spot the GIMPing! 04:31:50 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:33:44 oooh 04:33:56 nice architecture 04:34:06 but the ball is obvious 04:42:43 nice ball, but the architecture is obvious 04:42:57 :) 04:44:58 is it his shirt? 04:45:22 possibly the fog? 04:53:26 hmm, http://codu.org/hats/BritDrivingCap-sm.jpg is a flat cap? I didn't recognise it from that angle, thought it was something else :) 04:54:03 Reload pec2.jpg , I made some fixes. 04:54:06 But yes, it was the ball. 04:54:10 (And still is) 04:55:22 Looks a lot better now. I think needs some sort of reflection in the cylindrical shiny thing, though, even if it is blurry. And maybe a bit of a shadow. 04:56:10 It has a bit of a shadow. 04:56:40 I don't think it should be reflected ...? 04:56:50 (That is, I don't think my feet are visible) 04:57:14 the ball still looks fake 04:57:36 i can tell you why too 04:57:45 Please do, that's the skill I lack :P 04:58:16 one: the shadow on the ball is dark but the grating isnt as dark 04:58:34 second 04:58:49 look at the direction the light is coming from on your body 04:58:55 its coming from the left, reflecting off the wall 04:59:03 but the ball has light coming from top 04:59:04 slightly right 04:59:22 you're standing in the shadow of a pillar. wheres that light coming from on the ball? 04:59:58 The ball should be lit purely by ambient light I suppose. 05:00:03 no 05:00:10 it should be lit just like you're lit 05:00:25 the lights just coming from the wrong direction 05:00:37 Where should it be coming from? Up and left? 05:00:44 That's what I had before and it seemed funky to me. 05:00:52 same direct as on your body 05:01:16 namely, left ish, maybe slightly up 05:01:26 with some minor specs on the far left and right sides like your shoes 05:09:00 psygnisfive: Refresh. Better or worse? 05:09:52 better with the light, but the shadows are still off. 05:10:04 look around your feet, see how the shadows on the grating are? 05:10:18 I see how they are, I have no idea how to replicate that. 05:10:43 just make the grating dark 05:10:44 i mean 05:11:06 I have to do this manually, don't I X-P 05:11:11 look at the way the grating is 05:11:19 its bright 05:11:23 no shadow on the grating 05:14:23 for absolute photorealism, i recommend filling the screen with #000000 05:14:24 Yeah, I know what you're saying, it's just a bit more tedious than "add a dark area and fade it to 50%" :P 05:15:14 what? 05:15:24 just hand paint a new layer with some black 05:15:26 jesus christ 05:16:10 Yeah, but hand painting = a process X-P 05:16:12 yes, just add a layer of black jesus christ 05:16:15 and it'll be fine 05:17:29 Everything is fine with some black Jesus Christ. 05:19:37 Of course, this time it's uploading SUUUPERSLOOOOOOOWWWWWWWLLLLYYYY 05:22:44 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:23:05 psygnisfive: Rererererererelook for me? :) 05:23:55 better. make it darker right where the ball meets the grate 05:24:29 GregorR: your swing looks pretty fake too 05:24:47 oklopol: That was an actual swing -_- 05:24:58 GregorR: then maybe i'm calling you a nerd :P 05:25:07 oklopol: But it's difficult to swing well when you're being SOAKED IN EFFING FREEZING COLD WATER 05:25:18 :D 05:25:27 well yeah, possibly 05:26:04 oklopol 05:26:06 GregorR: you're holding that mallot like a pussy 05:26:09 you never answered my question 05:26:42 yes, GregorR, you should hold mallots like cocks, not like pussies 05:26:51 because, you know, they're sticks 05:27:05 psygnisfive: indeed i didn't 05:27:08 what question? 05:27:17 will you marry me 05:27:22 :D 05:27:27 psygnisfive: he's mine bitch 05:27:28 oh, right 05:27:31 i knew you'd say that :D 05:28:07 No problem with polygamy. 05:28:35 indeed 05:28:37 oklopol 05:28:41 is that a yes or no 05:29:06 that's right 05:29:08 infact, bsmntbombdood, you, me, and your girl friend 05:29:16 we could all get married to one another 05:29:17 if you really want me to answer, i guess i could decline, but i'm not sure if you'll prefer that :D 05:29:18 it'll be awesome 05:29:29 *sure you'll 05:29:34 haha 05:29:38 yeah marriage circle 05:29:39 does psygnisfive have male parts or female parts? 05:29:44 male parts 05:30:05 In a jar. 05:30:23 perhaps #esoteric should makes the worlds largest marriage graph 05:30:46 *make 05:30:55 *world's 05:31:04 i suck at s's 05:31:27 see you later, math exam fun -> 05:31:50 you don't them them mormons have a dude with more than 36 wives? 05:32:04 That was quite the sentence. 05:32:19 wow 05:32:44 *you don't think those mormons have a dude with more than 36 wives? 05:32:54 oklopol 05:33:14 bsmntbombdood 05:33:23 * psygnisfive gets on knee 05:33:41 * psygnisfive pulls out two equally awesome ring algebras 05:33:46 will you guys marry me? 05:33:47 only if you got me a cool ring 05:34:02 goddamnit, i don't understand ring algebra 05:34:21 but its really awesome 05:35:01 bsmntbombdood: I don't think many mormoms are married to irc bots. 05:35:19 * GregorR swaps out his personality for a bit of fun. 05:35:21 GOD HATES FAGS 05:35:26 i've always been interested in teledildonics platforms... 05:36:03 oh by the way, does anyone here have access to springerlink through their uni? 05:50:26 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:59:02 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:59:35 -!- Judofyr has joined. 06:27:10 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. and dlte ur files. and email ths to). 06:56:10 The fungot crash log looks like it has generated some babble without the correct terminating '2' in it. 06:56:10 fizzie: lemme see if i can 06:58:48 I'm still not sure why in a stack "0 -29 -25 -21 ... 87 91 95 46947 3" executing STRN's 'P' instruction turns the stack into "... 87 91 95 99 3". 07:05:32 -!- immibis has joined. 07:06:25 i should find a hobby besides annoying people with irc bots 07:06:50 Is that "using bots to annoy people" or just "annoy people who have bots"? 07:06:59 using bots to annoy people 07:07:01 -!- CoffeeBot has joined. 07:07:08 -!- CoffeeBot has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:07:53 I guess it could've also been that "people who are both annoying and have bots" was the hobby. 07:08:08 no because that doesn't make sense 07:12:59 To the general population, irc bots themselves don't make sense. 07:17:03 My bot doesn't make any sort of sense either. There's no way it could end up in the text output place without having a terminating 2 on the output row. There must be some other issue. 07:35:32 -!- toBogE has joined. 07:44:15 -!- CoffeeBot has joined. 07:44:15 ^echo optbot 07:44:15 optbot optbot 07:44:15 CoffeeBot: just don't claim I made it :) 07:44:16 fungot: running qbf results in some state |S> 07:44:16 optbot: i have that down, i'll have money 07:44:16 fungot: what are the threads? 07:44:16 optbot: huh? only tests a single bit index for pheromones are not fnord 07:44:17 fungot: right 07:44:17 optbot: ummm...i dont know. that is 07:44:18 fungot: this isn't branfuck? 07:44:18 optbot: the latter. see the topic) 07:44:18 fungot: 'A tom' 07:44:36 -!- CoffeeBot has left (?). 07:44:48 bug in optbot: what is branfuck? 07:44:48 immibis: in fatbot 07:45:03 oh, whatever. In fatbot then 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:44 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 08:03:25 -!- fungot has quit ("just testing..."). 08:04:25 -!- fungot has joined. 08:06:28 Haven't fungotized the Befungized Underload interp yet, but I bumped the cycle count up a bit. 08:06:28 fizzie: they are talking to you 08:06:33 ^ul (:aSS):aSS 08:06:37 (:aSS):aSS 08:08:11 ? 08:08:14 ^help 08:08:14 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 08:08:24 oh ok 08:08:41 ^bf +[[.+]+] 08:08:42 .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ... 08:11:24 Newlines are filtered a bit. 08:11:32 But that Underload interp is the brainfuck one. 08:11:34 ^show ul 08:11:34 >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>] 08:11:51 It used to be too slow to run that (:aSS):aSS quine. 08:15:12 ... 08:15:16 thats a big program 08:15:17 morning 08:15:49 Deewiant, I ran some coverage analysis on efunge when running mycology, you never test wrapping straight up or straight down (so the cardinal y wrapping code is never hit) 08:16:00 Mornung. 08:16:38 Deewiant, nor do you go out of bounds above or below the code at all 08:17:08 AnMaster: It might interest you to know that fungot's now running on cfunge. (Testing whether the occasional hangup might be a RC/Funge bug. Probably isn't, but you never know.) 08:17:09 fizzie: cat /dev/ mem? how does one convert ( ' ( n e v e r s e)) 08:17:43 fizzie, well you may hit some cfunge bugs, if you do, report 08:18:16 Sure. 08:18:29 fizzie, also I got no idea if rc/funge is valgrind clean, but a debug build of cfunge is, apart from not freeing the handle list used in SOCK and FILE. (So two "still reachable") 08:18:38 a release build will give a lot more still reachable 08:18:53 AnMaster: yes, I know this. 08:19:21 Deewiant, also you don't test ) for negative values of count it seems :) 08:19:25 I assume that if you can get it to work in one direction you can get it to work in any other direction. 08:19:29 ( yes, but but ( 08:19:29 err 08:19:31 ( yes, but but ) 08:19:37 s/but but/but not/ 08:19:38 not* 08:19:54 indeed, I just had breakfast. Still sleepy... 08:20:14 hmm, it /should/ try ) with a negative count 08:20:26 -!- oklocod has joined. 08:20:30 maybe I typoed and it does ( twice 08:21:10 What should () with negative count do? 08:21:16 UNDEF 08:21:33 But is there some sort of sensible behaviour? 08:21:38 Deewiant, well coverage analysis claims you don't try ) with negative 08:21:57 AnMaster: but does mycology output "UNDEF: ) with a negative"... 08:21:59 fizzie, 1) reflect (what I do) 2) pop |count| 3) other 08:22:08 UNDEF: ( with a negative count reflects and pops 0 times or less than the absolute value of the count 08:22:08 UNDEF: ) with a negative count reflects and pops 0 times or less than the absolute value of the count 08:22:12 2) isn't necessarily sensible 08:22:33 ah well, I guess I'll have to fix that then 08:23:56 Hacked in that "chroot+setuid after starting" thing so I don't have to have to bother with a real chroot with libraries and everything. 08:23:58 wtf did someone mess with some bot to make it /msg me? 08:24:18 "* CoffeeBot__ is making a coffee in an office mug with cold milk to help him wake up for you" 08:24:20 just got that 08:24:21 i asked it to make coffee on account of you being asleep 08:24:21 weird 08:24:53 immibis, I don't drink coffee, this morning I had some fruit juice, and a slice of bread 08:25:41 ok 08:27:13 Deewiant, you never attempts to unload a valid fingerprint when none is loaded? I'm unsure, it may be that the case is detected earlier in my code than in the fingerprint instr stack popping code. 08:27:49 not sure if I do 08:28:11 no I can't see any obvious place where it would have been detected... 08:29:38 oh anmaster your away is set to sleeping 08:29:52 immibis, better now? 08:30:02 Deewiant, nor do you test MODU's signed division for positive x and y I think 08:30:22 probably because it's not interesting 08:30:35 again, if it can get it right for negatives it's probably right for positives. 08:31:14 FIXP's rand() for negative arguments (or equal to 0) isn't tested either 08:31:23 and that could be worth testing 08:31:31 if the implementation does rand() % argument 08:31:35 for argument == 0 08:31:37 :D 08:32:12 FIXP's acos() never ends up hitting inf or nan either. 08:32:36 it's sqrt() doesn't seem to be tested on negative numbers 08:33:15 CPLI div isn't tested for cases when Bi * Bi + Br * Br == 0 08:34:39 oh and CPLI's abs() doesn't hit nan or inf either, but that may not be possible. (Unsure). 08:34:51 Deewiant, ^ 08:35:02 AnMaster: submit a patch. 08:35:19 there are edge cases everywhere, I can't be bothered to test every single one. 08:36:05 Deewiant, the FIXP randomness one could be worth testing, since I'm sure at least cfunge would have gotten division by zero there originally. (It doesn't since a few months, due to my fuzz testing) 08:38:48 immibis, glad you didn't forget to remove the milk from the orange juice :P 08:41:02 theres currently three ghosts of coffeebot online due to lag and apparently the server is not disconnecting them 08:41:30 ...ok the first disconnected 08:42:18 immibis, I got two messages from that bot both times 08:42:45 so two of them at least were alive at the same time 08:43:25 no i sent the first, it lagged and got ghosted, so i restarted it and sent the second 08:43:46 its a very badly coded bot. it needs recompiling to change the nick it connects with, and if the nick is in use it does nothing 08:45:11 theyve all quit now 08:45:16 -!- CoffeeBot has joined. 08:45:33 here too? :( 08:45:43 immibis: easy way out, add a "raw" command 08:45:59 immibis: ThutuBot needs recompiling to change its nick too... 08:46:06 immibis, as it is here is it 1) coded in an esolang or 2) runs esolang related stuff? 08:46:08 oh, well doesn't help if nick is in use to begin with 08:46:09 i have a raw command 08:46:10 ais523, hi 08:46:14 hi AnMaster 08:46:15 ais523, didn't know you were here 08:46:17 er good point 08:46:20 !p #esoteric 08:46:20 -!- CoffeeBot has left (?). 08:46:22 I only just joned 08:46:31 so I'll be uncommunicative for a while 08:46:35 joned, heh 08:46:43 well, joined 08:46:46 LOL he typoed :D 08:46:54 what a noab! 08:46:57 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol. 08:47:05 * oklopol is implementing noprob 08:47:07 fungot needs source-code-changes to change the nick too (surprise!) and also doesn't really handle the nick-in-use case. 08:47:08 fizzie: " yes." however, i cannot put a let statment are evaluated is compiler-defined. 08:47:22 fungot: That's not a real explanation. 08:47:22 fizzie: i must depart. but, yeah, i don't really know 08:47:42 oklopol, ... It just sounded funny in Swedish kind of 08:47:47 the typo 08:48:00 "jon" == ion 08:48:38 AnMaster: i was half making fun of you, and half actually laughing at the typo, so neither of you need be offended! 08:48:39 so in my head it turned out somewhat like ionized by mixing the Swedish meaning with the English -ed suffix. 08:48:51 oklopol: Are you sure that doesn't mean both can get offended. 08:49:04 hmm 08:49:08 fizzie: yes 08:50:13 fizzie, those changes for chroot + setuid means you need to start it as root right? 08:50:27 hm... I wonder how that interacts with resource limits... 08:50:29 most OSs only let root chroot things 08:50:46 ais523, he could make the binary suid root ;P 08:50:57 and also how it interacts with PERL. 08:51:03 hmm... or use Cygwin 08:51:06 as in the fingerprint 08:51:07 where non-root can chroot things IIRC 08:51:20 Yes. (Well, you could do it with the correct capabilities too, I guess.) It drops root privileges immediately after parsing the getopt results, though. 08:51:24 ais523, really? Well I doubt it means anything for security in cygwin. 08:51:25 although it doesn't really work like a typical secure chroot, as all the Win32 API functions just ignore it 08:51:35 AnMaster: yep, it's just there so chroot stuff works 08:51:42 fizzie, file system caps :D 08:52:11 fizzie, hm if it drops it there then it needs to have the source file in the chroot 08:52:17 Yes, it does. 08:52:43 Although the user it setuid()s to only has read permissions for the source file, not write. 08:54:04 fizzie, fun fact: avoid loading your language model data using i if you ever planned changing, cfunge uses mmap() to simply reading (handling \r\n across the boundary between two fread() chunks was just too painful...) 08:54:52 FILE use streams though 08:54:55 and so does o 08:55:59 I don't think I'll ever try to get that language model stuff to the funge-space; it seems to work just fine by simply seeking around the file and reading few bytes here and there. 08:56:06 heh 08:56:42 fizzie, using R? 08:56:48 Yes. 08:56:57 cfunge's quite a bit faster than RC/Funge, though. Changed the brainfuck interpreter amount-of-instructions limit from 200k to 600k, and it still says "out of time" in a reasonable time, I think 08:57:02 ^bf +[] 08:57:13 ...out of time! 08:57:29 and yes cfunge is fast, that was one of the design goals 08:57:36 tracing slows it down a lot though 08:57:39 And 600k is enough for the Underload quine, most importantly. 08:58:06 it worries me that a quine would need a limit of 600k... 08:58:09 since it traces to stderr, and stderr is unbuffered 08:58:12 ^ul (:aSS):aSS 08:58:16 (:aSS):aSS 08:58:20 yay 08:58:33 ^ul (a(:^)*S):^ 08:58:40 (a(:^)*S):^ 08:58:41 fizzie, 600 * 1024 bf instructions? 08:58:54 (the second one is Keymaker's version, it works a different way) 08:59:11 AnMaster: Actually 600000. And it's bytecode instructions, so things like +++++ are a single instruction. 08:59:19 ah 08:59:25 ^show ul 08:59:25 >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>] 08:59:38 was that cut off by irc? 08:59:41 Yes. 08:59:44 ah 08:59:46 how long is it? 09:00:08 it's pretty long 09:00:29 fizzie, oh an idea, [-] into c (clear cell) 09:00:34 Around 800 instructions unless I missed some other instruction in-between. 09:00:35 ^show 09:00:35 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp 09:00:46 No, ctcp is immediately after ul; so 800 instructions, then. 09:01:02 fizzie, eh? 09:01:09 huh? 09:01:15 They're in the state file in the same order as in ^show. 09:01:23 oh and? 09:01:29 I looked into that to see how long the program was when compiled into that bytecode. 09:01:36 ok. 09:02:12 oh and G in FILE is quite ineffective in cfunge. 09:02:20 so avoid it in performance critical code 09:02:30 AnMaster: you mean "inefficient", I think 09:02:34 "ineffective" means "doesn't work" 09:02:35 ais523, ah yes.... 09:02:44 it works but is kind of suboptimal 09:02:49 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 09:02:56 (it reads one char at a time then appends those to a string buffer) 09:02:59 G is used only at startup when it loads the state-file. It was easiest to do line-delimited stuff there. 09:03:10 fizzie, I guess it works well enough for that 09:04:03 ais523, and "ineffektivt" in Swedish means "inefficient" 09:04:08 so that is why I confuse them 09:04:08 ah, yes 09:04:22 ais523, "ah yes"? 09:04:35 "I see what you mean now" 09:04:36 like you knew it but had momentarily forgot it? 09:04:39 ah ok 09:04:42 you told me before 09:04:48 oh ok 09:04:48 so it was a case of remembering, too 09:04:51 I see 09:04:58 * AnMaster don't remember having mentioned it 09:05:05 err doesn't* 09:05:06 in there 09:05:26 you made the same mistake a few weeks ago, and I corrected you then, IIRC 09:06:00 fizzie, anyway did you do a release build or a debug buil? 09:06:02 build* 09:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | For outputting BugSophia: Gimme a RUNIC LETTER STAN!. 09:07:18 hm 09:07:26 wtf @ topic 09:10:57 A release build, I think; I just bzr'd your thing, then ran cmake with -DUSE_64BIT=OFF (I don't really need 64-bit addressing and that box is an oldish Pentium M) and -DJAIL=ON (the chroot thing). 09:11:25 hm 09:11:51 actually that may be something in between 09:12:16 since CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE wouldn't be set 09:12:51 considered release by cfunge's "clean up on exit to please valgrind code" 09:12:57 but cflags, not sure 09:13:46 If the cmake-generated flags.make has all the cflags, then it indeed doesn't seem to have -O2 in it. 09:14:09 fizzie, cfunge builds and works fine at -O3 -fweb even here 09:14:56 but I'm unsure about flags.make 09:15:13 -!- toBogE has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:15:26 C_FLAGS = -pipe -march=k8 -O2 -msse3 -O3 -DNDEBUG -fweb -I/home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src .... 09:15:32 in the release build tree 09:15:38 and C_FLAGS = -pipe -march=k8 -msse3 -ggdb3 -I/home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src ... 09:15:41 in the debug one 09:15:59 -O2 -O3 heh... 09:18:29 fizzie, so it could probably be even faster :D 09:19:05 for that "game of life in befunge 93" -O3 makes a *LOT* of difference 09:19:11 however it will be harder to catch bugs 09:19:50 Okay, I did -O3 now, just in case. (Actually I just ran ccmake on the build dir and changed the build type to Release, it seems to have added at least -O3 there.) 09:20:00 yes it would 09:20:04 why do people have difficulty debugging at O3, by the way? 09:20:09 fizzie, you may want to set -march 09:20:16 ais523, "value optimised out" 09:20:22 yes, it makes the code jump around a lot 09:20:35 well that is the reason. 09:20:37 and you can't always variable queries directly 09:20:43 but normally there's some way to get at the value 09:20:51 ais523, x86 asm dump, register dump, sure whatever 09:20:52 like evaluating an expression that's in the code 09:20:55 I don't do that sort of stuff 09:21:09 e.g. if you're calling a function with the arg (y*2)+1 09:21:13 (since I find x86 asm bloody awful) 09:21:14 then p (y*2)+1 normally works 09:21:18 even if p y doesn't 09:21:26 So, how do I add extra CFLAGS to that thing easily? 09:21:39 fizzie, in ccmake you hit t for "advanced screen" 09:21:44 cflags should be found there 09:21:52 Ah, okay. 09:22:02 fizzie, called CMAKE_CFLAGS or something like that iirc 09:22:31 actually CMAKE_C_FLAGS 09:22:58 the resulting cflags will be CMAKE_C_FLAGS + CMAKE_C_FLAGS_${YOUR BUILD TYPE IN UPPERCASE} 09:23:06 Must restart that thing, then. 09:23:13 -!- fungot has quit ("flaggity flag"). 09:23:23 fizzie, well yeah cfunge doesn't do hot code swapping ;P 09:24:00 -!- fungot has joined. 09:24:08 ^ul (a(:^)*S):^ 09:24:12 (a(:^)*S):^ 09:24:13 At least the brainfuck infinite-loop was faster. 09:24:17 fizzie, oh? 09:24:17 And that, too, I guess. 09:24:22 ^bf +[] 09:24:26 didn't really dee any difference 09:24:27 ...out of time! 09:24:48 ah yes, a bit over 10 seconds before. less than 10 now 09:24:56 This time five seconds (as seen from my viewpoint; and we're on the same server with fungot). Last time it was 14 seconds. 09:24:57 fizzie: i'll make one. when does sxyz ignore its argument? 09:25:03 +ul (:^):^ 09:25:05 ...out of time! 09:25:06 fizzie, well for the "game of life" for example, as I said it makes huge difference 09:25:33 +ul (a(:^)*S):^ 09:25:34 (a(:^)*S):^ 09:25:40 now that was quite a bit faster 09:25:55 but it isn't in bf interpreted by befunge either 09:25:57 AnMaster: thutubot's Underload interp is written in Thutu, rather than being written in BF written in Funge... 09:26:05 yeah 09:26:15 ofc neither is particularly efficient, but I suspect thutubot's method is faster 09:26:25 ais523, well yeah 09:26:37 The stand-alone Funge-98 Underload seems pretty fast. 09:26:44 and thutubot got a lot faster once I started storing the timeout counter in balanced binary rather than in unary 09:26:46 heh 09:26:47 Should just stick it into the bot. 09:26:53 fizzie, that could be messy 09:27:08 considering it may have fixed ideas about temp storage locations 09:27:24 Yes, a few numbers need to be changed. 09:27:31 ais523, balanced binary?... 09:27:38 Still, I wrote it with the intention of sticking it into the bot sooner or later. 09:27:39 AnMaster: binary with digits 1,0,-1 09:27:45 ais523, um... 09:27:47 it uses 1 and 0 normally 09:27:50 this sounds horrible 09:27:54 ais523, well so does computers 09:27:56 but once the count reaches 0 it starts filling it with -1s 09:28:07 because it's easier to figure out when it reaches the end that way 09:28:11 I use the -1s for carry propagation 09:28:14 heh 09:28:19 well, borrow propagation 09:28:25 fizzie, ah 09:28:29 because arithmetic via regex is hard 09:28:52 Thutu arithmetic is probably easier than INTERCAL arithmetic, though, still... 09:29:21 AnMaster, fizzie: just run inside a {, that's the main reason the instruction exists :-P 09:29:27 * AnMaster gets a nasty idea 09:29:57 AnMaster: what is it? 09:30:08 hmm, probabilities, and satisfaction don't really mix in my head 09:30:09 hmm... a sandbox fingerprint? 09:30:15 Deewiant: I don't like {; it gets so messy to access not-related-to-the-code storage then. 09:30:17 *probabilities and satisfaction 09:30:20 1) make = in efunge evaluate erlang expressions 2) Make = mark the program as "tainted", somewhat like when you load a binary module into the linux kernel 09:30:22 :D 09:30:39 i'm having a hard time even implementing just the brute-force way to interpret noprob 09:30:41 fizzie: well, you're not supposed to do that :-P 09:30:43 Deewiant: Plus I don't like the fact that it sets storage offset to ip+delta; is there even a comfortable way of specifying an arbitrary storage offset? 09:30:48 AnMaster: can you untaint the program by matching it against a regex? 09:30:52 that works for Perl... 09:30:58 ais523, huh...? 09:31:02 fizzie: {, followed by u to push what offset you want, followed by } 09:31:03 Deewiant: There's the input given to the program, for one thing. And the output going out. I don't want to copy that around all the time. 09:31:10 AnMaster: in Perl tainted data is data that comes from an unknown source 09:31:19 the only way to untaint it is to run it through a regex 09:31:24 ais523, ah well I meant in the same meaning as the linux kernel 09:31:27 captured groups from the regex are untainted 09:31:29 fizzie: I think you could push the output via u unless you're mutating it a lot 09:31:37 ais523: how? 09:31:44 and the input you could place inside the { area 09:31:46 from outside it 09:31:50 oklopol: because the Perl interp assumes you know what you're doing 09:31:52 ais523, which is "binary/closed source module has been loaded, any crash backtrace will be unusable for kernel developers" 09:31:57 it is shown on crash 09:31:58 and that the regex was defined to check that the input was safe 09:32:05 hmm, right 09:32:08 interesting 09:32:29 so you can just do $unsafeinput =~ /^(.*)$/; $safeinput=$1; 09:32:37 if you know anything but newlines are safe 09:32:38 for instance 09:32:46 if you were expecting a number you do $unsafeinput 09:33:09 *if you were expecting a number you do $unsafeinput =~ /^(-?[0-9]+)$/ or die; $safeinput=$1; 09:33:15 that way you get an untainted number or an error 09:33:16 Deewiant: Okay, u-output could work. I just like the well-specified absolute addresses more. On the other hand, if this ATHR thing ever gets off the ground and I want to run interpreters concurrently, I guess I'll sort-of need to use the storage offset to help the different instances coexist. 09:33:17 and you can't do anything but matching with an unsafe string? 09:33:31 you can do most things but the result is tainted 09:33:35 oh 09:33:37 e.g. concatentating it, or whatever 09:33:53 there are various things you can't do: you can't pass it as input to a shell command, for instance 09:33:58 i'm loving this 09:34:00 Deewiant: Actually using 'u' didn't occur to me; I'm more of a Befunge-93 person. 09:34:02 awesome 09:34:06 ais523, what if you want to do it with something else than regex? Maybe write your own code to check it in a custom way, like is the normal way in for example C? 09:34:07 fizzie: :-) 09:34:26 AnMaster: well you just pass it to a regex at the end to tell Perl you've checked it 09:34:30 it needs checking, and it needs a regex 09:34:36 the checking doesn't have to be in the regex though 09:34:37 hah 09:34:47 ais523, that seems rather silly to me 09:34:54 well, yes 09:34:57 but it's very Perly 09:35:04 what about matching but keeping it tainted? 09:35:06 using regex 09:35:14 you can taint data whenever you like 09:35:29 ais523, anyway see above for what I actually meant 09:35:34 yes, I know what you meant 09:35:42 the problem with variables with a probability in noprob is, you can't just store the probability, becauce vars may not be independent 09:35:46 *because 09:36:03 incidentally, doesn't y have a code for meaning "= has the same meaning as eval in the lang this interpreter is written in"? 09:36:13 ais523, no don't think so 09:36:20 yes it does 09:36:32 oklopol: ah, I know what you're getting at 09:36:33 ah 09:36:36 right 09:36:40 that's the same problem people have simulating a quantum computer 09:36:53 you have lots of probabilities that depend on each other, so it's a pain to simualte 09:36:56 *simulate 09:37:07 except with a quantum computer it's worse because the probabilities are complex numbers 09:37:22 Regex is not the only way, though: "Values may be untainted by using them as keys in a hash; otherwise the only way to bypass the tainting mechanism is by referencing subpatterns from a regular expression match." 09:37:34 ah, I forgot the keys in a hash one 09:37:42 although I don't really get why it exists 09:37:43 ais523: but i was thinking, perhaps i should store everything the variable depends on and their independent probability, and check if vars are independent with an intersection 09:37:53 did anyone understand xkcd today? 09:38:07 so i can use math in most cases, because usually the vars do *not* depend on each other 09:38:10 oklopol: that sounds like an optimisation, does it solve the underlying problem though? 09:38:49 ais523: So you can untaint $x with the very pretty $x = (keys %{{ $x => 1 }})[0]; construct. 09:38:52 ais523: if the vars aren't independent, i will take all random vars the variables depend on, and enumerate all possible settings for them 09:39:06 and check what the probability is for each pair 09:39:07 fizzie: does that even need the keys in there 09:39:27 $x = (%{{$x=>1}})[0] would work, wouldn't it? 09:39:48 Yes, I think it would. 09:39:54 or would it need to be written $x= @{[%{{$x=>1}} 09:40:00 The intention is clearer with the "keys". :p 09:40:00 or would it need to be written $x= @{[%{{$x=>1}}]}[0] 09:40:07 Perl casts are great... 09:40:25 fizzie: that keys is inefficient! 09:43:43 AnMaster: "Burma-Shave was an American brand of brushless shaving cream, famous for its advertising gimmick of posting humorous rhyming poems on small, consecutive highway billboard signs." 09:44:24 what's it called when you use those funky trees to get optimal prefix-codes for tokens? 09:44:38 hm 09:45:06 oklopol: Huffman coding? 09:45:11 thanks 09:45:16 remembered it has an H 09:46:25 there's Shannon coding too but normally it doesn't work as well 09:46:35 yes, i know the story 09:46:36 but in theory, you could end up with neither of them being optimal 09:46:44 IIRC 09:46:47 nah 09:46:51 huffman is optimal 09:47:01 shannon isn't 09:47:04 90% 1 vs. 10% 0, the most optimal method is not to give them one bit each 09:47:18 you could have, for instance, 00=0, 01=1, 1=111 09:47:29 but I don't think Huffman coders take that sort of thing into accoutn 09:47:30 well that's a different coding scheme 09:47:31 *account 09:47:44 oklopol: well, isn't that proof that Huffman isn't always optimal? 09:47:47 no. of course you can get better compression given more sophisticated schemes 09:47:54 ais523: nothing is always optimal 09:48:03 yes, obviously 09:48:17 huffman is optimal if you only have codes for *single tokens*, and codes are static 09:48:22 yes 09:48:32 but, shannon is *never* optimal 09:48:36 well 09:48:37 markov-chain codes tend to do better 09:48:37 i mean 09:48:46 it's only optimal when it has the same result as Huffman 09:48:49 of course it's sometimes optimal, but it's never always optimal :P 09:48:52 yes 09:49:00 or isomorphic 09:50:37 I have an optimal compression algorithm for some common data in esolang contexts 09:51:12 most significant bit set = "Hello, World!", most significant bit not set = 99 Bottles of beer. Any other value is ignored. 09:51:13 :D 09:51:38 "any other value is ignored"? :D 09:52:03 please show example of ignored encoding 09:52:04 AnMaster: that's very HQ9+-like 09:52:04 oklopol, well yeah, I didn't say it could encode everything did I? 09:52:22 oklopol, as in "any other bit but the MSB is ignored" 09:52:23 oklopol: Most significant bit. I assume it's a multi-bit number we're talking about. 09:52:31 in the single byte 09:52:37 Oh, right. 09:52:38 ais523, yes I know 09:52:42 hmm... is "Hello, World!" a quine in HQ9+... 09:52:44 i'm just being pedantic here, fizzie 09:52:49 s/\.\.\.$/?/ 09:52:54 oklopol: Yes, I'm just being slow. :p 09:52:59 1 = hw, 0 = 99bob, X = ignored 09:53:03 solve for X 09:54:45 heh 09:55:36 'X' - strong drive, unknown logic value 09:56:08 high impedance 09:56:19 it shall not take any value for an answer! 09:57:07 oklopol: high impedance is Z 09:57:17 fizzie: actually, normally I treat "X" as meaning "short circuit" 09:57:25 ais523: it's a variable 09:57:26 because it's what you get if you strongly drive something to both 0 and 1 09:57:29 here 09:57:33 X = Z is fine. 09:57:40 oklopol, I think they are thinking VHDL 09:57:43 nerds. ;P 09:57:46 yes, 9-valued booleans 09:57:47 * AnMaster ducks 09:57:49 you have to love VHDL 09:57:58 AnMaster: well i'm thinking just general circuits 09:58:24 anyway, even if you aren't an electronic engineer I think you can appreciate that strongly driving the same part of the circuit simultaneously to 0 and 1 is a bad idea 09:58:39 yeah guess so 09:58:43 what is weak driving then? 09:58:49 and what is strong driving? 09:58:58 and what about driving faster than speed limit? 09:58:58 weak driving is via a resistor 09:58:59 ;P 09:59:03 whereas strong driving is direct 09:59:14 in theory, strongly driving something to 0 is like connecting it to the negative power supply 09:59:26 and strongly driving something to 1 is like connecting it to the positive power supply 09:59:43 whereas weak driving can be overriden via strong driving 09:59:53 strong 0 + strong 1 = short circuit (X) 09:59:59 strong 0 + weak 1 = strong 0 10:00:13 so what do you get when you connect something to both? Say a lamp to both ends of a battery? 10:00:13 weak 0 + weak 1 = weak 0.5, or some other non-integral value (W) 10:00:25 AnMaster: the lamp itself is a resistor there 10:00:33 ah 10:00:36 what about leds then? 10:00:41 basically whatever you put between 0 and 1 either has to block the current, or use up the energy flowing through it 10:00:52 if you put a wire there, it can't block the current because it's a wire and designed not to 10:00:59 so it has to use up the energy flowing through it 10:01:05 which it normally does by becoming very hot and melting 10:01:08 * AnMaster puts a diod the wrong way around between ais523's 1 and 0 10:01:24 AnMaster: which way's "the wrong way"? 10:01:30 reverse, so it blocks the current? 10:01:37 or forward, so it doesn't block the current and catches fire? 10:01:38 ais523, POLARITY REVERSE! 10:01:39 ;P 10:01:46 arguably reverse polarity is the safer one here 10:02:11 On the other hand it doesn't accomplish anything. 10:02:23 hopefully that should give you radio Moscow (iirc) 10:02:24 At least the one catching fire is doing something. 10:02:30 it does actually, because you can put an ammeter across the diode and determine how leaky it is 10:02:34 ais523, and iirc you read the book so you should get that reference 10:02:35 :P 10:02:36 which is useful if you're into measuring diodes 10:02:46 Misread "because you can put an AnMaster across the diode and determine how leaky it is" 10:03:00 * AnMaster slaps fizzie with a trout 10:03:02 measuring diodes is more useful than setting them on fire, IIRC 10:03:05 I'm not sure which one is the leaky one here. 10:03:28 ais523: If you *recall* correctly? So, uh, you read that in a book? 10:03:36 ais523, didn't get the reference?... 10:03:38 I meant IMO rather than IIRC, I think 10:03:57 AnMaster: I almost got it, but wasn't sure what it was 10:04:05 I thought "there's a reference to something there" 10:04:05 ais523, Good Omens 10:04:22 still don't get the reference, although I know it exists 10:04:25 ais523, if you still can't figure it out you need to re-read that book 10:04:38 and yes, everyone needs to re-read Good Omens 10:04:40 as many times as possible 10:04:49 ais523, I have 5 times or so at least 10:04:54 I just read it not many weeks ago; do I _really_ have to reread it again? 10:05:02 I've only read it about 3 times so far 10:05:09 fizzie, you don't get the reference either!? 10:05:48 AnMaster: I assume it's something Newton Pulsifer did; but ais523 said everyone needs to reread it anyway. 10:05:56 fizzie, well it is 10:07:08 fizzie, the book mentioned some magazine once published a "joke circuit schema" that wouldn't work, but when Newton Pulsifer built it, it received Radio Moscow 10:07:16 Yes, I remember that bit. 10:07:21 ah yes, I remember that now 10:07:27 it also mentioned "diods the wrong way around" 10:07:32 for that joke circuit schema 10:07:40 that was the connection 10:08:15 really you need to work a bit on your Pratchett trivia knowledge ;P 10:09:04 also it may have been some other station than "Radio Moscow", not 100% sure there 10:09:07 bbiab. 10:10:08 "It had diodes the wrong way round, transistors upside down, and a flat battery. Newt had built it, and it picked up Radio Moscow." 10:13:34 noprob is unimplementable 10:13:39 fucking unimplementable :| 10:13:52 oklopol: hmm... Feather makes me feel the same way, or worse 10:13:58 because I'm almost convinced it is implementable 10:14:06 I just find it really hard to figure out how 10:14:38 the problem is, usually i can at least implement some incredibly slow brute-force interpreter 10:14:51 but in this case that's simply excruciatingly hard 10:26:05 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:30:01 hi oerjan 10:30:28 good moaning 10:36:59 fizzie, what page? 10:37:28 I don't know, it came from a .rtf file in that same pile I used for fungot's discworld training. :p 10:37:29 fizzie: factloop is recursive, but it's handy. 10:37:33 ah 10:37:43 fizzie, Good Omens aren't discworld 10:37:59 Yes, I meant the same "around a thousand ebooks" pile. 10:38:12 fizzie, all legal? ;P 10:38:25 also a thousand... that's a lot of ebooks 10:38:33 None of them legal is my guess. 10:38:46 oh well 10:38:55 600 megabytes; got that as a CD several years ago from a friend. 10:39:12 heh... 10:39:25 fizzie, what dict is fungot on now? 10:39:26 AnMaster: mwahah life is good. it is 10:39:31 irc I gues... 10:39:31 The old irclogs one. 10:39:41 yeah 10:39:44 And he certainly seems to enjoy it. 10:39:54 yep 10:39:57 hi fungot 10:39:58 ais523: if you email the mit scheme ref. google just turns up mailing list posts 10:40:01 hi optbot 10:40:01 ais523: El dato que nada importa. 10:40:12 huh 10:40:15 hmm... thutubot doesn't react when I mention its name 10:40:20 it ought to really 10:40:26 ais523, in what way? 10:40:35 markov? 10:40:36 * ais523 wonders how long it will be before optbot starts returning fungot-generated stuff 10:40:36 ais523: of course +1 is wrong :) 10:40:36 ais523: when i came across a program once control will never re-enter that point, then later hit i to go into grad school 10:40:37 AnMaster: no idea 10:40:58 Optimally you need a third paradigm for babble-generation; optbot and fungot are slightly different, after all. 10:40:59 fizzie: yeah, that doesn't halt? 10:40:59 fizzie: Of course as far as I know I'm the only person to use this pronoun. 10:41:19 fizzie, yes, but what one would that be? 10:41:26 ALICE style maybe? 10:41:30 markov-chaining the letters? 10:41:30 And I think it's only fair fungot's the one who's more messed-up in the head. 10:41:30 fizzie: should be " prefix", and that functionality which can be adjust with forms like this: 10:41:38 ais523, ALICE bot 10:41:47 hm fungot needs a corpus made from famous speeches 10:41:47 oerjan: fnord firefox doesn't have bugs? will paredit be classified as an esolang 10:41:50 we had alicebot vs. fungot a while ago IIRC 10:41:51 ais523: you know if the source code 10:41:59 but I was trying to think up something unusual 10:42:14 "Fnord and seven years ago ..." 10:42:17 To be or not to fnord, kindom for a fnord 10:42:21 an order-3 markov chain on letters not words would probably result in absolute nonsense, with no advantages other than being pronouncable 10:42:30 The lovecraft texts generated a _lot_ of fnords. 10:42:33 oerjan, what would that be from? 10:42:40 AnMaster: Lincoln 10:42:53 oerjan, hm. 10:43:02 US president right? 10:43:03 or? 10:43:06 yes 10:43:10 fungot: Do some Cthulhu stuff again for a bit. 10:43:10 fizzie: i tried not to heed him; tried to break through the paralysis which held me, and now and then to burst forth in a fnord anywhere that afforded me an opportunity to be near the college, and am fnord of get'g, there be'g ii. goode fnord in towne, dr, bowen and sam: fnord. 10:43:29 "be'g"? 10:43:47 and get'g well yeah both ' and g gets from funge space 10:43:55 Thutubot wouldn't really be suited for random gibberish though 10:44:01 as Thutu has no random number function 10:44:09 oh actually, "Four fnord and seven years ago ..." 10:44:13 and no really sensible way to store data but the source code 10:44:16 "be'g" as in "being" in a folksy way. 10:44:41 ais523, alice bot then? 10:44:51 Thutu would probably be good at that 10:44:54 but I don't like alicebots 10:44:58 ais523, why not? 10:45:03 I don't think I have a lot of speeches available right now. The Europarl speeches generated quite nonsensical stuff. 10:45:09 they always sound stupid and aritifical 10:45:18 ais523, I seen some pretty good ones 10:45:30 and they just keep on talking on the same subject as me 10:45:35 people never do that in real life 10:45:41 that can keep track of different topics for different speakers 10:45:56 ais523, so you need to mess around with that a bit so it sometimes changes topic 10:45:58 ;P 10:45:58 also, the vocabulary tends to be limited to mine 10:46:19 probably why I don't like alicebots is obvious if you just pipe two of them into each other 10:46:27 the result tends to be obviously awful 10:46:33 ais523, oh? 10:46:40 because both of them are trying to generate a conversation off what the other says 10:46:44 whilst being non-commital themself 10:46:45 haha 10:46:53 because they don't know about any subjects themself... 10:46:54 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettysburg_Address#Lincoln.27s_Gettysburg_Address 10:47:14 oerjan: Wikiquote will be better for Wikipedia for that sort of thing, probably 10:47:21 ais523, what about mixing that up with some markov stuff? 10:47:34 an Alicemarkovbot? 10:47:36 or what? 10:47:36 Okay, I fed it everything in my gutenberg pile having the word "speeches" in the title. :p 10:47:45 fungot: Be pompous for us, please. 10:47:45 fizzie: in the mean time, it was done. before that, two indians were placed on the council of the fnord fnord 10:48:08 Ooh, the council of the fnord fnord. 10:48:12 that makes sense apart from the fnords 10:48:43 ais523, yes such a bot 10:48:55 fungot, ... 10:48:56 AnMaster: i consider this, sir, i greatly deceive myself, that the judge is to hear the government accused of avoiding the discussion of the right honourable baronet proposes to punish brazil for the slave trade, not in themselves presumptively criminal, but actions neutral and indifferent the whole matter, in which mode of government, there is an archbishop with ten thousand a year, he has done for him more than the ordinary b 10:48:56 actually, I've had a brilliant idea for something to Markov-chain 10:48:59 gzipped text 10:49:06 fizzie, you just changed to EU one? 10:49:11 wait no 10:49:31 if you markov on compressed text, presumably it'll still have the right format, apart from maybe checksums 10:49:31 fungot, that make no sense 10:49:31 AnMaster: yours very sincerely and respectfully, abraham lincoln, fnord 10:49:42 oh famouse speeches 10:49:43 yay 10:49:49 Here's the list: http://zem.fi/~fis/speeches.txt 10:49:55 and decompressing it will presumably lead to something with a coherent subject 10:50:02 fizzie, tried shakespear? 10:50:03 oh so lincoln was a fnord too 10:50:03 because the same things will be said on many occasions 10:50:11 fungot, . 10:50:11 AnMaster: " there are who, while to vulgar eyes they seem of all my honours, i am sure that my colleagues will not fnord, seeing that there is a fnord, is almost totally wanting, and then you will be prepared against these inconveniences. 10:50:52 ais523, how do you know where to cut it off then? 10:51:05 AnMaster: include EOF in the markov chain, obviously 10:51:28 ais523, no I mean would you be able to cut off after any byte? 10:51:35 I don't know the format for gzip well 10:51:39 yes, you markov-chain the bytes 10:51:56 ais523, would that really work? 10:52:02 at the highest order you can get away with without verbatimising 10:52:08 and almost certainly not, but it would be great to try 10:52:13 heh 10:53:22 going for a while, I need to get food 10:53:25 bye for a bit 10:53:30 Misread "I need to get fnord". 10:53:37 Thanks to all the fnords here lately. 10:53:46 hah 10:53:53 Haven't tried Shakespeare, no. He's not in the preprocessed Gutenberg books I have for that other project, so it'd need some text-extraction. 10:54:01 oh ok 10:55:13 fizzie, http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hamlet 10:55:15 Not sure where I could get conversational text easily, except the IRC logs. (And the telephone conversations, but I tried that already.) 10:55:16 maybe 10:55:16 ? 10:55:55 fizzie, you could filter it to just be the actual phrases said, removing all "enter Hamlet" "exit hamlet" 10:55:59 and such 10:56:02 Actually wait, Shakespeare is there. 10:56:14 66 books, actually. 10:56:47 http://zem.fi/~fis/ss.txt 10:57:01 I guess I could try that too, although it probably won't be very interesting. 10:57:24 the fnordity should be staggering 10:57:28 oerjan, yes 10:57:34 fizzie, would be nice to try at least 10:59:13 fungot: Okay, try it. 10:59:13 fizzie: ' so in thyself thyself art made away; a mischief worse than civil home-bred strife, fnord or, hubert, hubert throw thine eye on yon young boy: ile tell thee more. 10:59:22 heh 10:59:30 fizzie, how does it handle ' ? 10:59:37 fungot, Hamlet 10:59:37 AnMaster: ped. keepe your hundred pounds to yourself: he shall draw; he shall tap; said i well, bully hector? 10:59:50 fungot, really? 10:59:50 AnMaster: iohn. i will presentlie goe learne their day of marriage, and things, and to confine yourself to fnord house convey our arms, quartered within his fnord th' expense of many a blasting hour, let it no more on height of our care, sir. 10:59:59 Inside words, ' is just part of the token; so "foo's" is one token while "foo" is another. 11:00:09 fizzie, what about 'tis ? 11:00:29 Things that look like "'foo bar baz'" get turned into "opening single quote, foo, bar, baz, closing single quote". 11:00:39 fizzie, You are unusually random aren't you? 11:00:44 err 11:00:48 fungot, You are unusually random aren't you? 11:00:48 AnMaster: brutus. enough, i warrant you 11:00:51 sorry about that fizzie 11:01:02 fungot, bah 11:01:02 AnMaster: louel seemes to stay. you, in the meane time, some show in the posterior of the day 11:01:14 I'm not sure what it does with "'tis" and "th'". Probably interprets "'tis .. th'" as a single-quoted string. 11:01:35 oh well 11:01:39 fungot, . 11:01:43 oh it's ignoring 11:01:51 ^echo optbot 11:01:51 optbot optbot 11:01:51 AnMaster: KILL 11:01:51 fungot: *your kajirc 11:01:51 optbot: laf. and shall i flye? i haue told thee, of a most homely fnord man, aufidius, piercing our fnord then we thought them none, her eie is sicke on't, i would 11:01:51 fungot: Nope. 11:01:52 optbot: ant. now my spirit is thine the better part made mercie, i should 11:01:52 fungot: we could add type inference 11:01:52 optbot: as through an arch so hurried the blown tide as the recomforted through the gates of millaine, and ith' dead of darkenesse the ministers for th' present. get thee to bed. 11:01:52 fungot: that's where I stop agreeing :P 11:01:53 optbot: iago. i'll send him ( for so i thought i had, i neuer spent an houres talke withall. his eye is hollow, and hee must needes goe that the diuell driues 11:01:53 fungot: you were all hardcore anti scheme 11:02:10 i think optbot didn't like that 11:02:11 oerjan: Glyph means symbol, right? (or atleast something similar) 11:02:32 It looks shakespeareanistic, but all in all not terribly funny. 11:02:39 fizzie, yes 11:02:42 indeed 11:03:44 Heh, 514 megabytes of language models already. (Lewis Carroll, Darwin, Europarl, telephone calls, IRC logs, lovecraft, those speeches and now Shakespeare.) 11:03:45 fizzie, well this will be fun when it gets into optbot 11:03:46 AnMaster: so no need to pack more closely 11:04:18 fizzie, I got to say irc is the one that worked best so far 11:04:36 fizzie, what about that idea with wikipedia talk pages? 11:04:45 maybe worth trying 11:05:04 fizzie, would be nice to see how ais reacts when he get back on that too :D 11:05:12 Maybe. Should probably check out whether the pre-supplied Wikipedia data dumps include talk page contents. 11:05:22 ^echo optbot 11:05:22 optbot optbot 11:05:22 AnMaster: read that 11:05:22 fungot: no 11:05:28 fungot,? 11:05:28 AnMaster: then there is schem48... 11:05:30 ^echo optbot 11:05:30 optbot optbot 11:05:30 AnMaster: With practice, dream recall can be "learned". 11:05:30 fungot: cygwin is yer friend 11:05:30 optbot: thinking huh? maybe file it upstream? 11:05:31 fungot: in that case, you've missed the joke entirely 11:05:31 optbot: i've never seen that problem before, which is odd 11:05:31 fungot: Of course predictably it still doesn't work :| 11:05:32 optbot: sometimes watching the politics here, it was used 11:05:32 fungot: !pager %a A C T I O N s h o w s S i m o n R C%a 11:05:32 optbot: fnord/ fnord it was simply suggested that there should be 11:05:33 fungot: thanks :) 11:05:35 ah it is on irc again 11:05:39 Oh, yeah. 11:05:42 Cleaned up the files a bit. 11:05:54 "pages-full.xml.bz2/7z - Current revisions, all pages (includes talk and user pages)" 11:06:05 fizzie, how large is that? 11:06:06 For some reason they don't do database dumps including only talk pages. :p 11:07:10 Trying to figure out. Apparently the dumps aren't exactly those as the wiki page describes. 11:07:30 Ah, there. 11:07:34 "Discussion and user pages." 11:07:37 7.2 gigabytes. 11:07:44 wikipedia? 11:08:03 Yes. Talk pages should contain at least a bit of chatter. 11:09:20 I'd like to fetch the talk pages only, but apparently there's only "articles without talk" and "articles, user pages and talk" dumps. 11:10:40 could take quite a while to download 11:10:46 I wonder if that's worth trying. 11:11:00 fizzie, also you need to restrict yourself to a subset of the talk pages 11:11:04 considering the size 11:12:00 ETA 2 hours, apparently. 11:12:54 Around 1.7 megabytes / sec. Not too shabby, although far from the speeds I used to get back when I still lived on the university student housing place. 11:14:32 Maybe I should look around our department's file system; so far I've just looked at the speech group's "text" directory. 11:15:32 At least the natlang people have a "corpora" directory. 11:16:13 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:19:45 It's that XML MediaWiki export format... I guess I can pipe the file through bunzip2 and some script to output only the interesting things, so I don't need to actually uncompress that 8-gigabyte file. 11:20:20 fizzie, yeah 11:20:49 fizzie, bzcat2 maybe 11:21:03 rather than bunzip2 11:21:13 or you mean pipe from wget? 11:21:42 No, I'll probably need to tweak the script so much that it's better to have a local copy. 11:21:49 But bzcat's pretty much "bunzip2 -c". 11:22:05 Er, I mean, "bzip2 -dc". 11:22:27 k 11:22:58 fizzie, how large would the expanded file be? 11:23:02 I'm sure I'll find some use for a local Wikipedia dump other than just fungot, sooner or later. (Although it'll be pretty dated fast.) 11:23:02 fizzie: i also put an fnord man as the child of a, having b fnord a a fnord maybe b 11:23:57 fizzie, if you update the irc model remember to filter fungot itself first please 11:23:58 Do the bzip2 headers include uncompressed size? The wiki-dump-download-site doesn't say. 11:23:58 AnMaster: i camp at the bar and without the repeated fnord? 11:24:13 fizzie, no clue 11:24:25 anyway if you don't filter itself it would saturate I suspect 11:24:35 a bit more every time it is updated 11:25:17 [IpID || {_Key, IpID} <- Entries] 11:25:26 list comprehensions are fun 11:25:53 Apparently the uncompressed size is not stored in the bzip2 format (unlike gzip), so can't say. I would assume it's at the very least twice that size, probably a lot more. 11:40:13 hm 12:02:42 actually, if you want to test things on the Wikipedia dumps, one well-known trick is to get Simple English not English 12:02:50 because you can still read it, and it's smaller 12:04:45 56 % already fetched out of that enwiki dump, I guess I'll just select a couple of talk pages out of it or something. 12:16:28 -!- LinuS has joined. 12:20:33 hm 12:21:03 Deewiant, You wondered why R11B wouldn't work, well I read the changelog, and to be able to follow funge spec I need to use a function added in R12B-3 12:21:13 init:stop/1 12:21:20 to also return a exit code 12:24:27 Hm. 12:24:42 If you put a multiple of the Chaitin constant in a check. 12:24:47 What will the bank do? :o 12:24:57 not cash it, almost certainly 12:25:10 Chaitin? 12:25:23 Roughly probability of the stopping of a machine 12:25:29 AnMaster: the probability that a random Turing machine halts 12:25:39 and how large is that one? 12:25:40 it's been mathematically proved to be impossible to calculate accurately 12:25:45 heh 12:25:48 * oerjan thought check formatting was fairly rigid 12:25:51 Well, it's between zero and one. 12:25:53 I'm not sure how many decimal places of it are known 12:26:02 Well, it's machine specific 12:26:04 because it is possible to get bounds on it 12:26:06 and yes, it is 12:26:21 it's been mathematically proved to be impossible to calculate accurately <-- transcendental(sp?) number? 12:26:27 Worse! 12:26:31 it depends on how you randomize the Turing machine, but I thought there was some official method 12:26:32 Uncomputable number 12:26:39 AnMaster: trancendental numbers can be calculated sometimes 12:26:49 pi is trancendental, but can be calculated to any number of decimal places 12:27:01 well you said it is known to some decimal places? 12:27:05 whereas for Chaitin's number there's some number of decimal places past which it can't be calculated, even in theory 12:27:13 hm 12:27:19 You can get an estimation, AnMaster 12:27:31 and that is? 12:27:37 It's a sum of 2^p * 0 if it doesn't stop, 1 if it does 12:27:54 -p 12:28:08 It's a probability, so you know it will be between 0 and 1. 12:28:16 basically it takes a while until you get to the first Turing machine you cannot decide, and before that you have got a few dozen bits iirc 12:28:23 If the first program stops, you know it's between 0.5 and 0 12:28:25 And so on 12:28:40 2^p * 0 well that would be (2^p) * 0, which would be 0? 12:28:46 um 12:28:52 oh and yeah shorter Turing machines are weighted more 12:28:57 But if you can't prove anything about the first machine, you will always have an uncertainty of 0.5 12:29:12 *program 12:29:16 hm 12:32:20 Maybe I should give out checks for floor[n*chaitin] 12:32:30 WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW 12:33:33 TAKING A SHOWER 12:34:11 I actually read part of Chaitin's autobiography; it seems he's a big fan of Lisp 12:34:23 so much so that he once implemented a Diophantine equation that interpreted it 12:34:44 Diophantine? 12:34:55 restricted to nonnegative integers for each unknown 12:35:10 each unkown what? 12:35:15 so 3 / x = 2 has no solution as a Diophantine equation 12:35:26 and "unknown" as a noun means one of the variables in an equation that you have to find the value for 12:35:34 as opposed to a parameter, where you're given the answer in advance 12:35:53 so if I say "solve x + 1 = y for y given that x is 3", then y's an unknown and x is a parameter 12:36:03 hm... 2x=3 ..... x = 3/2 but yeah requires more than integers 12:36:21 in general, solving Diophantine equations is super-TC 12:36:35 ais523, the lisp one too? 12:36:40 because the equation itself can be TC, and a solution therefore solves the halting problem 12:37:05 the Lisp one can easily be tweaked to implement a Turing machine by feeding it a Turing machine simulator written in Lisp 12:37:06 ais523, ok. How do you make an equation TC though? 12:37:38 AnMaster: if you give it certain input as parameters, the values the unknowns can take are a function of them which requires TC-ness to calculate 12:37:52 hm 12:40:01 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_tenth_problem 12:43:30 from the history section it's pretty clear that it is not a simple result 12:43:53 indeed 12:52:35 "Likewise, despite much interest, the problem for equations over the rationals remains open." 12:52:52 so no one knows if equations with fractions are TC 12:54:19 ais523, do you know if pthreads threads share their working directory? 12:59:45 well I'll add this then; 12:59:47 It is implementation-defined if each thread got it's own working directory or if 12:59:47 the working directory is global for the whole implementation. 12:59:50 for DIRF 13:00:20 At least the POSIX specs speaks only of the "current working directory of the process". 13:00:26 Which would imply it's not thread-specific. 13:00:32 fizzie, well in erlang it global per node 13:00:48 so if you run the stuff distributed *some* threads may end up sharing directory 13:01:40 assuming the nodes aren't set to use a common file server process on a single node 13:04:02 -!- Corun has joined. 13:04:48 afk 13:07:27 ^show 13:07:27 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp 13:07:34 ^rev2 test 13:07:34 tset 13:07:46 ^reverb test 13:07:46 tteesstt 13:08:00 ^hi test 13:08:08 ^show hi 13:08:16 huh 13:08:26 fungot: hm? 13:08:26 oerjan: i've never been 13:08:27 AnMaster: no I don't know about pthreads and directories, unfortunately 13:08:31 ^show 13:08:31 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp 13:08:41 ^hi 13:08:50 maybe it's not bf 13:08:57 my guess is hi's defined to the 0-length string 13:09:09 bf is only in that list because I defined a command called bf to try to confuse it 13:09:14 ^show bf 13:09:22 er 13:09:26 ^show echo 13:09:26 >,[.>,]<[<]+32[.>] 13:09:35 ^show ws 13:09:37 ^show wc 13:09:37 [] 13:10:58 ^def pal bf >,[.>,]<[.<] 13:10:58 Defined. 13:11:06 ^pal panama 13:11:07 panamaamanap 13:11:57 ^def pal bf >,[.>,]<<[.<] 13:11:57 Defined. 13:12:00 ^pal panama 13:12:00 panamamanap 13:13:27 ^pal amanaplanac 13:13:27 amanaplanacanalpanama 13:13:59 ^pal ablewasier 13:13:59 ablewasiereisawelba 13:14:05 Actually "hi" is an empty program. 13:14:10 That's why it won't show up. 13:14:19 ^pal amanaplanac 13:14:19 amanaplanacanalpanama 13:14:26 Oh, you said that already. 13:14:43 I don't think it was actually empty, just not brainfuck so the bytecode compiler mostly ignored it. 13:14:49 ah, ok 13:15:25 That 'wc' program doesn't look like it should work. 13:15:30 ^def hi bf ,[.,]!Hello, World! 13:15:31 Defined. 13:15:33 ^hi 13:15:34 ^show wc 13:15:34 [] 13:15:39 hmph 13:15:45 ^hi test 13:15:45 test 13:15:46 ^show hi 13:15:46 ,[.,] 13:15:53 It doesn't accept preprepared input, I think. 13:15:57 my guess is you can't specify input in defined commands 13:16:05 seems so 13:16:05 hmm... maybe you should add Easy as a lang to fungot 13:16:06 ais523: that result is reversed at the end where krishnamurthi got into a brief fnord with a normal distribtion, 95% are within 2 feet of it. 13:16:12 despite being a joke originally, it's actually quite interesting 13:16:18 basically it's BF 13:16:23 but the input and program are in the same stream 13:16:33 It used to work, though. Defining 'hi' like that would've caused "^hi test" to output "Hello, World!!test". 13:16:46 so for instance you can do ,H.,e.,l.,l.,o., .,W.,o.,r.,l.,d. 13:16:57 or ,H[.,]ello, World! 13:17:05 with two !'s? 13:17:36 oh if the final input was added with ! ... 13:17:50 oerjan: Yes, I think. Because it would've executed "^hi test" by turning it into the original bf command with "!test" after it. 13:20:16 * ais523 wonders why eir inbox is now called INBOX rather than Inbox since eir email problems 13:21:15 the email client is hard of hearing so they had to shout the name to make sure it'll pick it up 13:21:24 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:28:12 wow, my latest FRC entry hit a bug in Google 13:29:11 * oerjan wonders if there was ever an FRC spam round, and if so if all messages got through 13:30:36 well, it's probably the first FRC round with a word that's 200 kilobytes long 13:30:40 made entirely out of Z in this case 13:30:56 because the full chemical name for titin was mentioned a couple of entries earlier 13:31:03 and each entry has to set a new record for word length... 13:34:38 ouch 13:34:57 so this may be the first round that is won due to technical issues? :D 13:35:05 who knows? 13:35:17 (assuming it hasn't happened already) 13:35:26 Google relayed the message fine 13:35:31 its web-based view also displays it fine 13:35:35 but has a "read more" link 13:35:40 after the end of the message 13:35:52 clicking on it gets you a "download full message" link, also after the end of the message 13:35:56 and in both cases, the full message is shown 13:36:06 it seems Google can handle 200KB messages, but not 200KB words 13:54:35 -!- oklocod has joined. 13:59:01 ais523, odd, you only use e* for yourself instead of his in /me when it is about mail and nomic it seems 13:59:20 why is that odd 13:59:26 what's wrong with gender-neutral pronouns 13:59:28 hi ehird 13:59:34 ehird, nothing 14:00:14 ais523, what does that "FRC" you referred to mean? Googling for "define:FRC" lists lots of various things 14:00:16 a diophantine equation that runs lisp :D 14:00:18 awesome 14:00:20 Agora uses "e" everywhere, when we're thinking about nomic we tend to slip into it 14:00:28 AnMaster: Fantasy Rules Committee 14:00:39 which was not one of the things google listed 14:01:44 ais523, also 200 kb of Z really a valid word? 14:01:53 they've allowed invalid words before 14:01:58 just they have to make sense in context 14:02:08 and this did? 14:02:10 "Zzzz" is a common representation for sleep in English 14:02:15 with variable numbers of Zs 14:02:15 heh 14:02:22 so I used 200,000 of them for Sleeping Beauty 14:02:41 ais523, would it be invalid for someone else to use 300,000 such then? 14:03:03 yes, but only because my rule made it invalid 14:03:08 ah 14:03:42 ais523, what is the full name of titin? 14:03:54 AnMaster: about 180,000 characters long 14:04:21 the link at wikipedia to a page with the full name wasn't valid 14:04:34 (dns error) 14:04:49 Methionylthreonylthreonyl...isoleucine is how it's abbreviated on the wiki page about the longest word in English 14:05:16 They should abbreviate it as M189817E 14:05:30 In the I18N and L10N style. 14:06:44 heh 14:16:20 gawd, I hate those abbreviations 14:17:22 A11N FTL! 14:19:36 assassination? 14:19:44 * AnMaster wonders too 14:19:54 abbreviation maybe? haven't checked length 14:19:57 argumentation? approximation? assemblywomen? 14:20:03 too short I gues 14:20:05 guess* 14:20:12 yes, that'd be an a10n 14:20:18 oerjan: Antiquitarian faster-than-light? 14:20:35 l10n... liquefaction? 14:20:41 localization 14:20:53 ehird, you didn't get the point of the joke... 14:21:07 and it wasn't even my joke so hah 14:21:09 i missed the part where it was funny. 14:21:21 egrep '^l.{10}n$' /usr/share/dict/words is a wonderful way of finding new meanings for it. 14:21:23 (probably due to its nonexistance) 14:21:46 fizzie: except here, where /usr/share/dict/words is swedish :-P 14:21:59 it is English here hm 14:22:05 here it's configurable 14:22:09 so I set it to UK English 14:22:20 wouldn't it be Finnish over there Deewiant? 14:22:59 AnMaster: that's what I would have expected, that or English, but no, it's Swedish. 14:23:13 Here it's a symlink to /etc/dictionaries-common/words, which is a symlink to /usr/share/dict/web2. 14:23:14 ISO-8859 no less 14:23:36 Well yeah, it's /usr/share/dict/words -> /etc/dictionaries-common/words -> /usr/share/dict/swedish 14:24:31 fizzie, here it is just a file 14:24:32 funny, american-english, british-english, and swedish, but no finnish 14:24:35 with lots of English words 14:24:43 darn i counted wrong :D 14:25:01 hm 14:25:08 s/A11N/A10N/ 14:25:26 ais523, for that FRC, are you using /usr/share/dict/words normally? 14:25:34 * AnMaster wonders if there is any way to sort by length 14:25:41 gnu sort probably have it 14:25:48 I have /usr/share/dict/finnish from the wfinnish package, but it's a bit useless. 14:26:17 hmmm nop 14:26:21 fizzie, oh? 14:26:51 There are so many suffixes that it doesn't make much sense to try listing them all in a static word list. 14:27:04 i missed the part where it was funny. 14:27:21 what 14:27:34 you and AnMaster are like a comical duo... 14:27:46 i'm the funny one and he's the annoying one? 14:27:49 :-P 14:28:33 no you're both grumpy 14:28:53 heh 14:29:12 oerjan, anyway it was Deewiant that made the joke 14:30:07 it was more an explanation of my annoyance towards the abbreviations than an attempt at mirth 14:30:26 hm gnu sort got an option called --random-sort, doesn't seem to be bogosort though 14:30:30 -R, --random-sort sort by random hash of keys 14:30:30 --random-source=FILE get random bytes from FILE (default /dev/urandom) 14:30:41 I don't get what -R does at all 14:30:46 hmm... maybe it sorts same lines together 14:30:47 it shuffles the file 14:30:52 but not in any particular order apart from that? 14:31:06 ais523, think you are right 14:31:07 it just shuffles the file. 14:31:11 in a random order 14:31:32 identical lines are put together though 14:31:52 so it's taking hashes using a random but consistent algorithm, and sorting those 14:32:24 seems so yes 14:32:37 "hash of keys" so you don't necessarily use the whole line i guess 14:33:25 -u, -r, -n, -i and -k are the only gnu sort options I use with any sort of regularity. 14:33:40 oerjan, and yes, -k sets that iis 14:33:41 iirc* 14:33:49 -k, --key=POS1[,POS2] start a key at POS1, end it at POS2 (origin 1) 14:34:03 a pitty you can't sort on field 3, then field 2 or such 14:34:19 you cannot? 14:34:21 yeah, hence I usually write short haskell programs to do sorting :-P 14:34:30 I suppose learning awk would be more optimal 14:34:39 oerjan, I tried it before 14:34:48 Deewiant, usually I use awk yes 14:35:08 well I don't know perl myself, but I heard awk and perl were pretty similar 14:35:16 Perl is a lot more featureful 14:35:20 and awk compiles trivially to it 14:35:20 well yes 14:35:31 ais523, awk is easier to write though IMO 14:35:40 Perl is easy to write once you get the swing of it 14:35:42 The hashing is actually MD5 in GNU sort, and the randomness comes from the fact that it starts by hashing some random data. 14:36:00 fizzie, err huh? 14:36:07 you mean like a seed? 14:36:27 Well, there's that random-source option. 14:36:36 defaults to /dev/urandom 14:36:38 It reads a bit from there and MD5-processes it first. 14:36:44 Then the key field. 14:36:51 then? 14:37:11 Then it takes the MD5 hashes and sorts according to those. 14:37:15 also does it use the same random value for all the lines? 14:37:18 so, given, say, data with 8 whitespace-separated columns per line, how would you sort it first according to the fifth and then the second column 14:38:01 If I'm reading it right, no. But it uses the same random value for both keys in all pairwise comparisons, so completely identical keys will be kept together. 14:39:00 Deewiant, were you asking me? 14:39:15 anybody who cares to answer 14:39:35 you can do it by running sort twice 14:39:36 in awk: I would probably sort it using arrays in awk 14:39:46 sort by the second, then sort the result by the fifth 14:39:49 because GNU sort is stable 14:39:50 ais523, sort(1) may not be stable iirc. 14:40:00 ah, I thought it was a GNU sort question, which is IIRC 14:40:03 ais523, only if given --stable 14:40:15 otherwise why would they have that option? 14:40:16 ah, ok 14:40:17 -s, --stable stabilize sort by disabling last-resort comparison 14:40:32 what if the columns don't start at the same position, doesn't sort(1) require the exact column? 14:40:35 ah, last-resort comparison isn't always used, IIRC 14:40:36 er 14:40:41 and it would be stable if it wasn't 14:40:45 Deewiant, field delimiters usually 14:40:47 when it is you have the option to turn it off 14:40:53 so, you might get "1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8" but also "1234 2 3 4 5 6 7 8" 14:41:09 Deewiant, then if the field delimiter is space that should work 14:41:15 okay, what if you're given "1|2,3,4|5 6 7 8" :-P 14:41:31 Deewiant, then you give the option to set | or whatever you want as field delimiter 14:41:48 which for gnu sort seems to be -t 14:41:49 AnMaster: the field delimiter there is | twice, , twice, and space thrice. 14:42:06 Deewiant, then you pipe it through sed first 14:42:23 AnMaster: and what if | or , can appear in quoted strings 14:42:33 then maybe sort is the wrong utility to be using? 14:42:34 use some other char that won't 14:42:42 AnMaster: and what if I can't affect the output data 14:42:42 sed them all to @ maybe 14:42:50 Deewiant, sed them back!? 14:42:54 AnMaster: maybe @ can appear as well 14:42:56 and as ais523 said 14:43:02 exactly, maybe sort is the wrong tool 14:43:04 what's the right one 14:43:05 Deewiant, the reason for "maybe" 14:43:18 you can select your own one there 14:43:22 that doesn't collide 14:43:32 and of course there are cases when sort is the wrong tool 14:43:44 no tool is optimal for every task 14:43:52 Deewiant: if you're using that sort of format, it's likely some sort of CSV variant 14:43:52 nor any programming language 14:43:54 AnMaster: that isn't doable with sed, at least not easily. 14:44:03 in which case OpenOffice would manage it just fine, except it isn't a command-line tool 14:44:14 openoffice is a bit too heavyweight :-P 14:45:07 Deewiant, why not? say you selected ! as separator, you can replace it with something else of course.... Then you do s/!/|/;s/!/,/;s/!/,/ 14:45:08 and so on 14:45:17 as long as you don't use g only the first one will be replaced 14:45:31 AnMaster: say I'm given "1|2,3,4|5 6 7 8" where each number can contain quoted strings containing any of " |,". 14:45:51 AnMaster: how do you sed the separators to something uniform so that you can turn it back later, without affecting the fields? 14:45:52 Deewiant, well then you need a full scale parser 14:45:58 exactly. 14:46:07 which is possible in sed since it is TC, but I wouldn't recommend it 14:46:10 or not really, that can be handled in regex. 14:46:12 Deewiant, and as I said above 14:46:21 you can select your own one there 14:46:21 that doesn't collide 14:46:21 and of course there are cases when sort is the wrong tool 14:46:21 no tool is optimal for every task 14:46:21 nor any programming language 14:46:26 not sure if you saw it 14:46:38 Deewiant: what if it contains email addresses, which aren't escaped, but it ignores separators inside comments in the email addresses due to knowing how to parse them? 14:47:13 That would be a really sensible format, ye. 14:47:17 AnMaster: as I said above, what if the output format is not under my control 14:47:22 s/.$/s./ 14:47:23 what if it contains a hypothetical imaginary ASCII char with the value of sqrt(-1)? 14:47:24 ;P 14:47:28 next question? 14:47:33 AnMaster: and my whole point was to ask what method/tool people would use 14:48:26 If someone gave me a file like that right now, I'd probably use a bit of Python, since it's got the 'csv' module (which does quoted strings just fine) in the standard distribution. I'm sure there's a CPAN Perl module, but maybe not installed by default. 14:48:31 Deewiant, also sometimes you can sed back as I suggested above to get the right format 14:48:35 and sometimes you want another tool 14:48:38 Of course that wouldn't help with the unescaped email addresses. 14:48:48 Deewiant, like yacc + a C program 14:48:48 :P 14:48:53 or something 14:53:36 Deewiant, anyway not sure if you saw it above, but by reading erlang news file I found that I need at least R12B-3 for efunge 14:53:54 and there may be some bugs that affect in that version 14:54:00 so R12B-4 recommended 14:54:42 yes, I do notice when I am pinged 14:54:48 ok 14:55:17 so do I, but I'm pinged so often, it seems, that I'm beginning to grow to ignore them 14:55:23 Ping? Pong! 14:55:29 ais523: 14:55:31 As mIRC used to say. 14:55:43 it doesn't any more? 14:55:49 I guess it does. 14:55:53 I don't use it any more. :p 14:55:57 :-P 14:56:28 Although as a reference, I've got the comment "ping? pong!" there in the fungot sources where it answers a PING message. 14:56:28 fizzie: perhaps the processor fried? 14:56:43 fungot: Huh? You seem to be working just fine. 14:56:43 fizzie: i'd say another way to set some value to some specific variables and then using a foreign-lambda ( without) declaration instead. 14:56:56 fungot: can i have a burger with that? 14:56:56 oerjan: in mornfall's future, that are just ' go to hell 14:56:57 also pang not pong :/ 14:56:58 1> net_adm:ping(nosuch@node). 14:56:58 pang 14:57:12 oh look, AnMaster made a joke by interpreting something as erlang 14:57:16 gee willikers 14:57:56 päng 14:57:59 heh 14:58:02 pöng 14:58:09 ,ø˜© 14:58:14 ̦Ø̃‸ 14:58:16 Deewiant, does that mean anything? 14:58:19 ehird: er, what? 14:58:22 anyway 14:58:29 oerjan: opt-pong and opt-alt-pon 14:58:30 g 14:58:30 AnMaster: not that I know of 14:58:37 oerjan, I'm not sure is päng ~ peng? 14:58:41 as in coins 14:58:46 maybe different spelling just? 14:59:04 oh so it's e in swedish too? 14:59:04 ʼþ ʼß œ¨ʼþ´ ¯ ©øøð ´˜¸®¥,þʼø˜ ˛´¸ˍ¯˜ʼ߲≤ ʼƒ ¥ø¨ ˝ß¨þ ˙¯˜þ þø ¸ø˜ƒ¨ß´ ,ǿ,-´≥ 14:59:07 well not "coins", but rather the base of the word 14:59:20 pengar would be money 14:59:28 in plural 14:59:41 Pengar har jag inga, men en sak til tröst 14:59:57 for some reason "en peng" sounds strange... 15:00:10 oerjan, till in Swedish 15:00:11 it's "en penge" in norwegian 15:00:22 oerjan, "ett mynt/en sedel" 15:00:25 depending on what type 15:00:29 AnMaster: closer than expected then 15:00:31  ̑ø≤ ¸¯˜ ¯˜¥ø˜´ ®´¯ð þˍʼß¿ ʼæ˛ ©¨´ßßʼ˜© ˜øþ≥ 15:00:44 ehird: stop pasting mojibake into the channel 15:00:53 'snot mojibake 15:00:55 mojibake? 15:00:59 doesn't look like mojibake 15:00:59 it's hold-down-opt-encoding. 15:01:07 you hold down opt/alt in os x and type. 15:01:09 oerjan, also it sounded like part of a poem? Since the grammar seemed strange 15:01:10 Deewiant: Japanese written in UTF-8, but read as Latin-1 15:01:19 ̛þæß œ¨ʼþ´ ´ƒƒ´¸þʼˇ´ ƒø® ¸ø˜ƒ¨ßʼ˜© ,ǿ,-´≥ 15:01:21 yes, I know, and I said it doesn't look like it :-P 15:01:23 heh, some words are readable 15:01:24 AnMaster: Evert Taube's Flickan i Havanna 15:01:25 for -> ƒø® 15:01:28 and you're right, it doesn't look all that much like mojibake, it's hitting the wrong extended characters 15:01:45 oerjan, Well he *was* Swedish, so that explains a bit I guess ;P 15:02:10 my dad is a big fan 15:02:11 ais523, Just enable UTF-8 ;P 15:02:19 oerjan, can't stand Taube really 15:02:25 AnMaster: I have done 15:02:29 the music isn't good at all IMO, and the texts are worse 15:02:30 that's why I was confused 15:02:34 ah 15:02:37 I was wondering if it was reverse mojibake or something 15:02:51 ais523, åäö ? does those look correct 15:03:06 I'm not sure what they're meant to look like, but I assume so 15:03:07 ... 15:03:09 it wasn't mojibake. 15:03:10 anyway my client is set to auto detect 15:03:14 a with a weird accent, a umlaut, o umlaut 15:03:17 ais523, aao with ring, 2 dots, 2 dots 15:03:55 ais523, and as wikipedia will tell you, at least in Swedish they are separate chars, not just variants of a and o 15:04:11 think it is same in Norwegian except they use ø 15:04:28 Which is altgr-ö here 15:04:48 oerjan, right? 15:05:43 yes yes 15:05:57 AnMaster: yes, also the order is different 15:06:00 æøå 15:06:05 oh ok 15:06:36 anyway, as for that bug in Google I was talking about: http://groups.google.com/group/frc-play/topics 15:06:38 AnMaster: i think peng[ae]r <- penning[ae]r 15:07:04 penningar? 15:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | :p. 15:07:10 hm 15:07:15 The Finnish alphabet has the same "åäö" as the Swedish one, although å (the "Swedish O") is not used in any Finnish words, just names and stuff like that. 15:07:38 oerjan, sounds like a weird form though, not something I would write/use. Probably oldish/poemish or something 15:07:58 AnMaster: it's an old coin unit 15:08:01 fizzie, Swedish O? 15:08:07 fizzie, we got o too 15:08:22 oerjan, like riksdaler? 15:09:07 1 riksdaler = 192 penningar 15:09:08 ais523: the download link works for me 15:09:16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_riksdaler 15:09:31 oerjan, blergh, Good thing we use a more logical system since ages 15:09:52 ehird: yes, the point is it shouldn't be there in the first place 15:10:00 why not? 15:10:03 Yes, because base-10 is more logical than any other base. (What?) 15:10:07 the "read more" link shouldn't be anyway 15:10:12 it puts ... at the end of the message 15:10:25 Yes, but the å letter is called "the swedish O" to distinguish it from the "o" letter. I'm not sure how much sense that makes. 15:10:35 Deewiant, well yes it is, for a simple reason... Our system is base 10 elsewhere 15:10:52 ais523: final newline, maybe 15:11:02 fizzie, not any sense for me 15:11:03 AnMaster: what system? Times are base-60 or base-24. Dates vary. 15:11:19 Deewiant, well the Babylonians used base 60 for "counting" iirc. 15:11:29 ehird: no, because the second message in that thread is longer 15:11:32 but we have 0-9 before we get a digit in the next position 15:11:32 and also has the read more link 15:11:41 ah, ok 15:11:58 Deewiant, thus I'd say we use base 10 (exception: programmers) 15:12:18 Deewiant, we write 15 minutes, not F minutes 15:12:34 AnMaster: well yeah, we write everything in base 10. That doesn't mean it's any more /logical/ to use base 10 for other things, especially retroactively. 15:12:34 thus I'd say minutes are base-10 but modulo 60 15:13:18 Deewiant, why isn't it a good idea to change to a more logic system? 15:13:29 AnMaster: time is base-60, but each digit is written in base 10 15:13:34 so it's decimal-coded-segasdecimal 15:13:40 AnMaster: Why is it logical? 15:13:49 What is so much more logical about 10 than about 60 15:13:59 It might be the more obvious choice for humans, sure 15:14:04 But it is no more or less logical 15:14:15 Deewiant, also why did you say retroactive? 15:14:38 AnMaster: What do you mean, why? 15:14:45 "especially retroactively" 15:14:46 you said 15:14:49 Yes, I did. 15:14:55 But did we change money retroactively? 15:14:59 Don't think so. 15:15:06 We replaced the current system with a new one 15:15:20 but we didn't rewrite history to never had used the replaced system 15:15:37 How is this retroactively? 15:16:18 Hmm, I think I misunderstood myself 15:16:34 But the point stands 15:16:40 Doing it retroactively is even worse :-P 15:16:41 Deewiant, as for why base 10, I agree it isn't any more inherently logical than anything else. But for beings with 10 fingers, there is a certain logic yes 15:16:54 AnMaster: "logic" is just the wrong word IMO. 15:16:56 Deewiant, got an example of it being done retroactively? 15:17:02 AnMaster: Can't think of any. 15:17:05 ok 15:17:24 then that is purely hypothetical, at least until ais523 implements Feather 15:17:32 heh 15:18:49 most things in humans come in two, and the only reasonable way to count with one's fingers is to use binary 15:18:52 there is no logic 15:20:41 oklocod: i don't think whoever thought of base-10 could have counted in binary on their fingers. 15:20:45 or at least, e could have 15:20:45 oklocod, sure, two lungs, two ... But... one heart? one brain? one stomach? One nose? One mouth? 15:20:50 but e wouldn't have intuitively thought of it... 15:20:59 * AnMaster agrees with ehird there 15:21:01 AnMaster: two brains. 15:21:10 Deewiant, blergh yeah in English 15:21:16 two brain-halves in Swedish 15:21:16 oklocod has 4.3 brains 15:21:17 so. 15:21:22 AnMaster: what is njure 15:21:22 :P 15:21:23 then it depends on the language of choice too 15:21:27 well yeah, they're brain-halves in english as well 15:21:31 but I'd say they're two brains 15:21:44 in the same way that we have two lungs and not two lung-halves 15:21:46 ehird, kind of related to the liver. Humans have two of them 15:21:54 kidneys 15:21:57 ah yes 15:21:58 that's it 15:22:27 Deewiant, the lungs are more separate though. 15:22:40 how so? They're less separate in that they're at least pretty much identical 15:22:44 AnMaster: heart does not exist for this purpose. 15:22:57 because you cannot see it 15:22:57 oklocod, ? 15:23:05 well then doesn't the other ones either 15:23:29 if you're choosing your base based on the number of things in your body, you're probably not smart enough to see what's inside it. 15:23:41 so lets see, one nose, one mouth, one torso, two arms, two legs, *ten fingers*, *ten toes* 15:23:58 yes yes 15:24:19 now change the topic, base 10 rage is building up inside me 15:24:21 oklocod, which is easier to count before you invented the mirror? your ears or your fingers? 15:24:37 some cultures use base 5, IIRC 15:24:50 ais523, yes makes sense for counting on one hand or so 15:24:52 yes sure sure base 5 and also 20 15:25:04 didn't the babylonians use base 60? 15:25:09 and perhaps a cool 60 slipped in at some point 15:25:11 or maybe sumerians 15:25:36 but they all sucked ass, binary an base -2i are the way to go 15:25:56 60 is kinda nice 15:26:16 No I suggest one of these bases: e, pi, 42 15:26:16 oklocod: -2i? Can you express all complex integers in that? 15:26:18 Base -2i ... 15:26:30 base -2 works for all decimal integers, with the digits 0 and 1 15:26:38 the first two allows you to get a precise value for certain transcendental numbers 15:26:52 work in base Chaitin 15:27:03 Isn't 'i' discrete? 15:27:06 Base 2i is the fun one 15:27:11 hmm 15:27:13 perhaps yeah 15:27:18 all complex integers using only four digits and no sign 15:27:27 yap yap 15:27:42 Since 'i' is discrete, base i can't represent every number. 15:27:45 sounds like a bad idea to me 15:27:46 Deewiant: what digits do you need? I think either 0123 or 0 1 i 1+i would work 15:27:50 not sure, though 15:27:52 0123 is fine 15:27:56 ah, found the article 15:27:58 GregorR: complex integer is what I was talking about 15:27:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quater-imaginary_base 15:28:03 GregorR, um, what about you cancel the base out? 15:28:22 the i I mean 15:28:26 GregorR: duh, you can never represent every number 15:28:49 Huh, that's interestink. 15:28:58 i resent your present representation 15:31:27 I would suggest not only changing the base, but more too 15:31:56 lets use base e and make use of a logarithmic scale 15:32:03 bbiab 15:34:21 * oerjan has been fond of hyperbolic tangent scale since he discovered you could add relativistic velocities with it 15:35:42 anyway, I got two emails about building services at the moment, and I'm not sure whether to be pleased or worried 15:35:47 one saying that my email was working again 15:35:56 and the other saying that they'd fixed the Door properly this time... 15:37:56 GregorR: duh, you can never represent every number 15:37:58 makes me unhappy 15:37:59 :( 15:38:06 ais523: well the first one was apparently not entirely wrong, i guess? 15:38:14 well, yes 15:38:23 but every door message seems to have caused it to have gotten worse 15:38:30 although the time it worked for me but nobody else was amusing 15:38:42 (although annoying due to all the time I had to spend opening it for other people) 15:38:48 as for the second, i eagerly await when you will start climbing in the windows... 15:39:00 *through 15:39:11 ehird: why? 15:39:21 oklocod: i like representing numbers. 15:39:26 :) 15:39:29 i vant perfect computeral arithmetic! 15:39:33 :-( 15:39:51 numbers demand representation! 15:39:53 computerolous arithmetology 15:39:54 -!- ais523_|direct has joined. 15:39:55 hi ais523_|direct 15:40:04 -!- ais523_|direct has left (?). 15:41:11 hm that implies someone once said something containing "washing the windows api" 15:41:55 no 15:41:58 no 15:41:59 many channels 15:42:01 it was markov-chaining 15:42:02 well. 15:42:05 a few channels 15:42:06 at order-3, IIRC 15:42:09 ais523: no, that was pretty literal 15:42:12 just two sentences put together 15:42:15 so "washing the windows" and "the windows api" 15:42:17 and three sentences 15:42:21 fizzie found the sources for us 15:42:33 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:42:34 i thought it based the next word on the 3 previous ones? 15:42:40 on the two previous, I think 15:42:44 bah 15:42:45 thats order-2 btw 15:43:02 fizzie: settle this argument for us? 15:43:09 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:43:20 order-2 = 2 previous ones 15:45:01 hm lower order would give more non-sensical output? 15:45:20 yes 15:45:57 I guess order-0 wouldn't be a markov chain any more? 15:46:14 (just a RWG) 15:46:36 order-0 would be totally random 15:46:37 well 15:46:40 it'd pick more common words more 15:46:47 so it'd just be "here's a random common word" 15:46:55 heh 15:55:18 -!- Ilari has quit ("Won't be back for a while..."). 15:56:25 It uses 4-grams, so it has a context of three words (in most cases) to choose the following word. 15:56:50 hmm... as oerjan said, that would imply that "washing the windows api" was actually in a message somewhere 15:57:04 unless it reduced to 3-grams for that because it couldn't find many 4-grams? 15:57:07 It might've been 4-grams when it outputted that. 15:57:19 I've been using various model orders throughout its history. 15:57:44 s/4-grams/3-grams/? 15:57:50 Yes, 3. 15:58:15 NO! IT CANNOT BE! 15:58:23 fungot, say it isn't so 15:58:23 oerjan: fconv merely _returned_ 0; it didn't _print_ it. 15:58:44 fungot: horrible! 15:58:45 oerjan: blah i was all about and i didn't have experimental selected so it was discussed very shortly, then matthew announced the decision to go in 2 bits 15:59:10 And yes, it will also currently use a 3-gram if it can't find *any* 4-grams that have the current three-word context as their initial 3 words. I'm not sure if that should normally happen, since the three previous words will have been generated with the same model. 15:59:29 No-one seems to be washing the API in my logs; just windows in general. 16:05:55 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:23:02 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 16:46:02 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:47:25 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:08:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:30:17 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:35:53 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:42:22 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:55:19 -!- LinuS has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:57:18 optbot! 17:57:19 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | how goes "interfunge"?. 17:57:25 E 17:57:26 *Eh 17:57:27 optbot! 17:57:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | aaah. 17:57:29 optbot! 17:57:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I'm a programmer, not a lawyer, dangit!. 17:57:36 Better :P 17:58:02 interfunge, what was that? 17:58:21 intercal funge 17:58:33 Befunge written in INTERCAL 17:58:38 ah 17:59:51 -!- olsner has joined. 18:00:49 * oerjan swats a swede ----### 18:03:29 ais523: that was anmaster talking about ICAL actually 18:03:41 ah, ok 18:03:52 = 18:03:53 ? 18:03:56 what? 18:03:56 because AnMaster likes using names thar were already taken, presumably 18:04:14 also, ehird, do you mean IFFI? 18:04:21 ICAL? That is a fingerprint that Mike Riley did 18:04:23 ais523: yes 18:04:39 s/did/created/ 18:22:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:29:16 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:33:27 SUP BITCHES 18:35:08 oh no. 18:42:28 hey. 18:42:49 did you know that theres a natural language formalism thats heavily based on types and lambdas? 18:42:51 its.. weird 18:43:17 theres even a version that depends on composition of functions, and on type raising 18:43:18 o.o; 18:43:57 ? 18:44:16 -!- LinuS has joined. 18:44:19 well i do know now, it's fairly irrelevant whether i knew before 18:44:26 because you can never prove i didn't 18:44:30 :) 18:44:30 therefor i win 18:44:34 *therefore 18:44:46 its called categorial grammar. the funky version is combinatory categorial grammar 18:44:49 its weeeeiiiird 18:45:27 like 18:45:54 some verbs have the type S\NP which means that they produce an S when they merge with an NP that's on their left 18:46:03 so if runs is S\NP, and John is NP 18:46:32 then John runs is S, because NP S\NP produces S, as S\NP states 18:47:04 that sounds not so weird 18:47:10 yeah but its for natural language 18:47:15 much how i see it 18:47:27 for more arguments to the verb: bites :: (S\NP)/NP 18:47:37 so bites Oklopol :: S\NP 18:47:45 so augur bites oklopol :: S 18:47:49 * psygnisfive bites oklopol 18:47:52 well i find the notation fairly weird 18:47:58 i say augur but you know what i mean 18:48:24 the notation isnt that bad actually, given that order is relevant here 18:48:36 X\Y means you get an X if you left-merge with a Y 18:48:39 X/Y means right merge 18:48:40 yeah 18:48:49 but i only got it just after calling it weird. 18:48:51 its kind of like an abbreviation of CFG rules 18:49:01 X -> Y X 18:49:07 well 18:49:17 X -> Y Z 18:49:30 but in these cases there is no proper Z 18:49:39 Z is X\Y 18:49:45 but anyway 18:49:48 its weeeeird 18:49:59 all sorts of crazy stuff happens dude 18:50:02 the composition is like 18:50:44 the sequence X\Y Y\Z Z can be analyzed as X\Y (Y\Z Z) 18:51:14 or you can do composition and get X\Z = (X\Y Y\Z); X\Z Z 18:51:24 which lets you handle all sorts of crazy discontinuities 18:51:37 and then the type raising is crazy too 18:53:15 go on 18:53:36 * Asztal `bites` everyone 18:53:43 sorry, had to get the slides to make sure i had the notation correct 18:53:48 forward typeraising is like 18:54:03 X can become T/(T\X) 18:54:08 backwards type raising is like 18:54:14 X can become T\(T/X) 18:54:15 you don't have to hurry, i stared at that for about a minute before realizing it was trivial. 18:54:27 so for a sentence like Marcel ran 18:54:42 normally: Marcel :: NP, ran :: S\NP 18:54:49 (more than a minute, emphasis on not the realizing but the time it took) 18:54:57 so Marcel::NP ran::S\NP => Marcel ran::S 18:55:12 but we can forward typeraise marcel 18:55:21 NP -> S/(S\NP) 18:55:46 so Marcel::S/(S\NP) ran::S\NP => Marcel ran:S 18:56:09 this seems pointlessly trivial but it makes it completely trivial then to handle sentences like 18:56:16 "Marcel proved and I disprove completeness" 18:56:38 interesting 18:56:45 wanna see that? :D 18:56:58 oh, of course 18:57:01 ok so 18:57:31 Marcel:NP proved:(S\NP)/NP and:(X\X)/X I:NP disproved:(S\NP)/NP completeness:NP 18:57:58 step 1: type raise marcel, I to S/(S\NP): 18:58:12 Marcel:S/(S\NP) proved:(S\NP)/NP and:(X\X)/X I:S/(S\NP) disproved:(S\NP)/NP completeness:NP 18:58:22 function compose Marcel with proved, and I with disproved: 18:58:55 haha, congrats on the pun :P 18:59:08 w.. what? 18:59:22 disproved np-completeness 18:59:26 lol 18:59:29 not my example ;) 18:59:31 [Marcel proved]:S/NP and:(X\X)/X [I disproved]:S/NP completeness:NP 19:00:06 build the right part of the conjunction 19:00:25 [Marcel proved]:S/NP [and I disproved]:(S/NP)\(S/NP) completeness:NP 19:00:28 build the left part 19:00:37 [Marcel proved and I disproved]:(S/NP) completeness:NP 19:00:41 btw: i dropped near "ok so" 19:00:45 then 19:00:50 [Marcel proved and I disproved completeness]:S 19:01:47 wait a mo, i'll try to understand all this. 19:01:55 :p 19:03:02 okay i get it to some extent. 19:03:17 its just function composition, and type raising 19:04:04 i don't know what function composition is in this context 19:04:14 so.. Marcel:S/(S\NP) proved:(S\NP)/NP --> [Marcel proved]:S/NP 19:04:23 why can NP become S/(S\NP)? 19:04:23 yep 19:04:30 it's kind of intuitive 19:04:30 type raising tule 19:04:33 rule* 19:04:37 something of type X 19:04:50 oh wait 19:04:52 can become something of type T\(T/X) 19:04:59 S/(S\X) is, of coutse, just X 19:05:09 right 19:05:11 i mean, if you just say it 19:05:19 because it's S with something on its right, that has S on its left 19:05:23 hmm 19:05:28 you get an S when you merge on the right with something that needs an X on the left to make an S 19:05:36 no no not that has S on its left 19:05:42 something that needs an X on its left to MAKE an S 19:05:50 think of it like this: 19:06:01 f x is prefix notation for applying f to x right? 19:06:06 sure 19:06:14 but why cant it be postfix notation for calling method f on x? 19:06:29 well, you know what i mean 19:06:35 who says x is the argument and f is the function? 19:06:43 why cant x be the function and f the argument? 19:06:44 yeah, who says it? 19:06:58 i mean, numbers can be modelled as functions right? 19:07:03 and so can booleans 19:07:14 a lot of things yes 19:07:35 and binary functions over booleans are often modeled in LC as using the BOOLEANS as the functions, right? 19:08:00 and(a,b) = a(b) or something like that 19:08:17 yeah, prolly 19:08:31 or whatever 19:08:42 thats what type raising is doing tho 19:08:45 i'd have booleans be a universal operation like nor, but yeah go on 19:09:01 okay 19:09:02 so 19:09:09 and you can do this completely crazy like 19:09:10 Marcel:NP 19:09:16 yeah 19:09:17 so, marchel is a noun thingie 19:09:23 yah 19:09:25 a noun phrase 19:09:34 when you do Marcel:S\(S/NP) 19:09:38 yes 19:09:47 that's... 19:09:48 err... 19:10:08 type raising, but we did S/(S\NP) since marcel was the subject of the verb :p 19:10:18 rrrright 19:10:24 but isn't S/(S\NP) 19:10:25 like 19:10:49 something that takes an S on the to produce something that takes an S on the to produce an NP 19:10:54 no no 19:10:58 you're mistaking the notation still 19:11:02 yeah, i am :) 19:11:06 X/Y means "produce an X by taking a Y on the right 19:11:13 i'm refusing to believe it's not what i originally thought it is. 19:11:29 so S/(S\NP) says "produce an S by taking an S\NP on the right" 19:11:46 oh, hey 19:11:48 i think i get it 19:11:51 :P 19:11:56 although i think these are the same concept 19:12:01 which what 19:12:03 on some level at least 19:12:22 well you might be able to say that instead of this: 19:12:31 Marcel:NP runs:S\NP 19:12:33 you really have 19:12:44 Marcel:S/VP runs:VP 19:12:54 but thats PRECISELY what typeraising is 19:12:57 because consider: 19:13:01 if VP == S\NP 19:13:02 then thats 19:13:11 Marcel:S/(S\NP) runs:S\NP 19:13:20 and S/(S\NP) is typeraised NP! 19:13:28 yes yes it's all clear now 19:13:32 :) 19:13:41 you can derive whole sentences that way dude 19:13:48 left to right 19:13:50 watch: 19:14:00 without types: I believe that she ate dinner 19:14:39 with types (after some type raising): I:S/VP believe:VP/S' that:S'/S she:S/VP ate:VP/NP dinner:NP 19:14:45 well thats a nice function composition chain there 19:14:57 [I believe]:S/S' that:S'/S she:S/VP ate:VP/NP dinner:NP 19:15:04 [I believe that]:S/S she:S/VP ate:VP/NP dinner:NP 19:15:19 [I believe that she]:S/VP ate:VP/NP dinner:NP 19:15:31 yes it's very nice 19:15:32 [I believe that she ate]:S/NP dinner:NP 19:15:38 [I believe that she ate dinner]:S 19:15:55 and thats like, COMPLETELY opposite of how most syntactic models look at sentence structure 19:16:12 type theory for sentences? 19:16:17 yeah its crazy 19:16:28 mm 19:16:32 also, theres a formalism for how to equate these things with their truth conditions 19:16:47 so that these applications also can produce lambdas and such 19:16:48 how is it the opposite of syntactic models? 19:17:11 the normal idea about the structure of that last sentence would be more like 19:17:26 ate + dinner -> [ate dinner] 19:17:35 she + [ate dinner] -> [she ate dinner] 19:17:45 that + [she ate dinner] -> [that she ate dinner] 19:17:55 believe + [that she ate dinner] -> [believe that she ate dinner] 19:17:59 and so forth, you get the point 19:18:15 I + [believe that she ate dinner] -> [I believe that she ate dinner] 19:18:15 and then you also have monadic discourse models :) 19:18:28 nomadic discourse models! 19:18:31 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 19:18:35 the semantics from this stuff is like 19:19:06 give1: ((S\NP)/NP)/NP : \z\y\z[give(x,y,z)] 19:19:49 so each left or right merge applies the lambda 19:20:32 hm? 19:20:36 What esolang is this? 19:20:39 that might be nice in a language 19:20:40 English. 19:20:41 AnMaster: english 19:20:46 ahaha 19:21:03 psygnisfive, also did you see that idea I had for a "HTML Query Language"? 19:21:03 english is pretty esoteric, ill have you know 19:21:12 HTML Query Language? 19:21:14 sounds pretty lame 19:21:19 you can't *not* see it 19:21:36 INSERT ELEMENTS head, body INTO THE ELEMENT head; 19:21:37 the cases were so up you could see them from china. 19:21:40 *upper 19:21:47 lots of statements like that to create a HTML document 19:21:50 oh i see 19:21:52 a DOM language 19:21:58 psygnisfive, instead of that messy stuff 19:21:59 not a query language based on HTML 19:22:02 psygnisfive, also select 19:22:04 but a query language FOR HTML 19:22:37 okt 19 16:10:48 SELECT TEXT OF ELEMENT p WHEN ATTRIBUTE id OF ELEMENT p IS EQUAL TO TEXT VALUE "top" AND ALSO TEXT OF ELEMENT p STARTS WITH TEXT VALUE "ehird"; 19:22:39 E4X probably does half of it :) 19:22:45 psygnisfive, verbose? 19:22:50 very 19:23:00 but less so than doing the same with JS, probably 19:23:07 haha 19:23:11 you'd need libs and shit 19:23:13 okt 19 16:22:13 UPDATE TEXT OF THE FIRST ELEMENT p OF ELEMENT body OF THE ELEMENT html SETTING NEW VALUE TO TEXT "Blergh..."; 19:23:16 html already has a query language: css 19:23:20 ITS QUITE IMPORTANT THAT YOUR LANGUAGE USES ALL CAPITALS, THAT WAY PEOPLE KNOW IT'S A REAL QUERY LANGUAGE AND NOT SOME FAKE CRAP, BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS REAL QUERY LANGUAGES ALWAYS USE UPPERCASE 19:23:25 olsner: CSS is not an html query language 19:23:26 lament, ah yes 19:23:29 olsner: xpath 19:23:31 :p 19:23:41 xpath, yes, this is true! 19:23:43 okt 19 16:24:31 "This language is insensitive to everything, except case" 19:23:45 well, with E4X (a javascript extension) you can create XML literals and query them to your heart's content 19:23:46 lament, ^ 19:24:00 well, not directly, but it has an embedded query language for specifying which elements a style applies to 19:24:09 lament: IT'S QUITE IMPORTANT THAT YOU RECOGNIZE THAT IT IS A JOKE, ALBEIT QUITE A BAD ONE 19:24:23 anmaster 19:24:30 you should also require that it be in lolcatese 19:24:47 psygnisfive, also oerjan suggested that each statement should end with ", OR ELSE!" as a opposite of INTERCAL's "PLEASE" 19:24:51 an* 19:24:56 hmm 19:25:02 i prefer the lolcat version 19:25:09 psygnisfive, I don't 19:25:14 we can fork it then 19:25:33 okt 19 16:02:08 INSERT ELEMENTS head, body INTO ELEMENT html; INSERT ELEMENT title INTO ELEMENT head OF ELEMENT html; INSERT TEXT "this is a horrible idea for markup" INTO ELEMENT title OF ELEMENT head OF ELEMENT html; 19:25:34 in fact 19:25:52 though I later decided that the top element needs "THE" 19:25:57 so THE ELEMENT html 19:26:01 for all of those 19:26:02 I CAN PUT ELEMENTS head, body IN ELEMENT html 19:26:07 ? 19:26:17 psygnisfive, I'm not interested in a lolcat version 19:26:20 :P 19:26:24 like i said we'll fork it 19:26:45 noooooo! 19:26:46 psygnisfive, it haven't been speced, so how could you fork it? 19:27:00 predictive forking 19:27:06 psygnisfive, since specing this may lead to insanity 19:27:10 you will not be allowed to fork it! we'll make it closed source! and patent it! 19:27:19 i type raised the query language 19:27:38 psygnisfive, just I think lolcat doesn't add anything to the joke 19:27:47 psygnisfive, rather it should look more like COBOL 19:27:48 IMO 19:28:08 lolcatting doesn't add much if anything to an all-caps cobolish language 19:28:10 so instead of fork::lang/lang, i typeraised your language to lang\(lang/lang) 19:28:17 olsner, agreed 19:28:26 psygnisfive, you make no sense. 19:28:27 ? 19:28:30 i do! 19:28:37 sense, you makes none! 19:28:40 you just didnt read anything i said about combinatory categorial grammars :P 19:28:43 oklopol understands me 19:28:57 psygnisfive, nor do I intend to, natural languages are boring most of the time 19:29:00 speaking of which, how would you parse "The horse raced past the barn fell."? Backtracking? 19:29:00 * oerjan looks at oklocod sitting catatonic in the corner 19:29:08 yeah but dude this isnt just natural language 19:29:20 this is function composition and currying and type raising! 19:29:22 psygnisfive: requiring knowledge of combinatory categorial grammars is basically equivalent to not making sense :) 19:29:23 in natural languages! 19:29:31 olsner, we're in #esoteric 19:29:34 be serious 19:29:37 olsner, I agree 19:29:53 olsner, we're in #esoteric be serious 19:30:00 i sense a cognitive dissonance 19:30:03 ^_^ 19:30:03 Asztal: i don't know much about grammar theory but intuitively that seems as complex as regexes 19:30:15 well, true... just *being* here is making no sense 19:30:40 i'm reading :P 19:30:44 oerjan, did i tell you about TAGs? 19:30:45 oerjan: cognitive dissonance is definitely on-topic here 19:30:48 oklocod: what about? :O 19:30:56 psygnisfive: maybe 19:31:09 T-something attribute grammars? 19:31:09 tree-rewriting models for natural language syntax 19:31:19 hm no 19:31:19 tree adjoining grammars, actually 19:31:20 but close 19:31:21 ugh 19:31:24 psygnisfive: algorithmmmmms 19:31:29 oh 19:31:41 algorhythms!! 19:31:49 * psygnisfive dances at oklocod 19:31:53 now that I think about it, I was thinking about modelling a card game on a three-adjoining grammar at one point 19:31:53 algorhymes? 19:32:13 algorhinos 19:32:13 i love this book, just algorithm after another 19:32:22 no strings attached 19:32:24 oklocod, what book? 19:32:25 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol. 19:32:26 algeurythmics 19:32:38 sigh 19:32:45 algorithm design, jon kleinberg & eva tardos 19:32:57 sweet dreams are made of theeeese 19:33:11 well, this, but she practically says these 19:33:19 <<<<(X*2)>>||<><=<<1,2,3>>>>. 19:33:24 who am i to disagree 19:33:30 can't get it over the internets afaik, so you won't do much with the name 19:33:39 psygnisfive, does your stuff help you understand that? 19:33:49 your <<>><<>>? 19:33:53 nopol! 19:33:57 psygnisfive, that code yes 19:34:06 no, but i've never looked at nopol. 19:34:20 it's not nopol, yours was 19:34:30 oh haha 19:34:32 <<>><<>>? 19:34:34 mine wasn't nopol 19:34:36 and you cannot look at nopol, i don't publish my languages except in this channel, when they are born :P 19:34:37 diamond eyes 19:34:40 psygnisfive, no. 19:34:46 psygnisfive, that <<<<(X*2)>>||<><=<<1,2,3>>>>. 19:34:53 i know, i wasnt talking to you, anmaster 19:34:54 * oklopol will put noprob on the wiki if the interpreter ever finishes, though 19:35:08 psygnisfive, I bet your weird natural languages models doesn't help you in understanding that :P 19:35:14 psygnisfive: yeah, that's nopol 19:35:18 oklopol: sounds like a halting problem to me 19:35:24 i havent a clue what language that is 19:35:34 so it doesnt. but that doesnt mean CCGs couldnt! 19:35:41 oerjan: i was afraid i might trigger a joke :P 19:35:42 psygnisfive, it's actually not an esolang. 19:35:47 ok? 19:35:55 but it IS a language, it looks like 19:35:55 psygnisfive, it is a functional language, and using some very weird syntax from it 19:36:05 and it is a mainstream one 19:36:10 ML? 19:36:13 nop 19:36:36 hm not haskell 19:36:40 oerjan, indeed not 19:36:45 erlang? 19:36:46 the main difference between natlangs and complangs is that complangs generally have very shallow semantics and very clear structure, so its not hard to talk about them 19:36:47 i mean 19:37:00 oerjan, yep, and using "bit string comprehensions" 19:37:01 the type of something in a programming language is purely a matter of value 19:37:05 but removing all the usual whitespaces 19:37:15 << << (X*2) >> || <> <= << 1,2,3 >> >>. 19:37:20 would be the normal way to write it 19:37:22 much clearer 19:37:28 but in natural language we have lots of shit to do with not just "Value" but also with representation type 19:37:53 oerjan, same concept as list comprehensions 19:37:59 because things can be represented in various ways 19:38:11 i mean, just consider what makes a noun a noun 19:38:12 psygnisfive, ever heard of Feather? 19:38:19 what IS a noun, exactly, ey? 19:38:24 AnMaster: heard of, yes 19:38:33 psygnisfive, well, that isn't shallow I think 19:38:36 a miserable little pile of semantics! 19:38:42 it is retroactively non-shallow 19:38:43 :D 19:38:49 at least if you make it so 19:38:58 psygnisfive: so, how about making a language that has such a complicated and exception-ridden syntax no one will ever be able to write it, it could be based on your wonky syntactic theories 19:38:59 retroactive changes to the own grammar rocks 19:39:10 oklopol++ 19:39:17 oklopol: ive been saying we should for months now :P 19:39:22 have you now :D 19:39:24 but noone wants to work with me on it. 19:39:31 * oklopol does, now 19:39:39 no you dont! dont lie! 19:39:42 * psygnisfive runs away crying 19:40:31 basically, we start with some simple structure, and start building incredibly complicated sublanguages, and add exception on top of exceptions until it's a total mess, after which we start cleaning it up, making it *look* simple, in short and simple programs 19:40:36 but the underlying semantics 19:40:39 are dreadful 19:40:40 and awesome 19:40:51 :P 19:40:55 i dunno, but yeah, i guess i wanna do something like that 19:41:04 we'd also have to have atleast two ways of representing the same thing 19:41:11 each with its own quirks of distribution 19:41:23 BUT, i've read 12 pages today (two exams, and i slept like 3 hours during the day), my quota is more like 80 19:41:26 psygnisfive, try perl 19:41:27 similar to how you can talk about events in english using sentences, or using noun phrases 19:41:27 yes! 19:41:45 perl doesn't have a complicated grammar 19:41:56 " we'd also have to have atleast two ways of representing the same thing each with its own quirks of distribution" 19:42:04 that is perl in a nutshell 19:42:08 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:42:08 :P 19:42:23 well we're gonna make perl^7-2 19:42:25 there is more than two ways to do it. 19:42:41 yeah probably more like five 19:42:48 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:43:21 yes but are they describable with type raising, function composition, and so on? 19:43:29 because thats how our language will be described 19:43:35 ITS GOING TO BE AWESOME 19:44:25 i say we use our language to compile down into simple predicates 19:44:27 speaking of which, how would you parse "The horse raced past the barn fell."? Backtracking? 19:44:31 psygnisfive, did you answer that? 19:44:33 and then run it on top of those predicates 19:44:34 can't see where you did 19:44:41 oh, no, i didnt see it at all 19:44:49 which formalism do you want? 19:44:54 CCG or the one im actually familiar with? 19:45:09 psygnisfive, just answer Asztal's question 19:45:40 asztal, which formalism do you want? 19:46:08 i mean, well let me rephrase that since you're not really asking about formalisms i guess 19:46:22 i couldnt tell you how a PARSER would work on that, for two reasons 19:46:43 1) the formalism im familiar with is notoriously hard to parse, supposedly, and i've never worked on a parser for it 19:47:03 2) CCG formalisms i dont know much about, nevermind CCG parsers 19:47:13 tho i can link you to a paper on parsing with CCGs 19:48:06 * oerjan gets a barn fell to race a horse past 19:48:07 psygnisfive, I prefer LALR 19:48:09 ;P 19:48:28 oerjan: lol no :) 19:48:32 its 19:48:41 [the horse [raced past the barn]] fell 19:48:43 * oerjan swats psygnisfive -- er wait no 19:48:55 * psygnisfive knuffelt oerjan 19:49:00 * oerjan clobbers psygnisfive with a hammer 19:49:33 the horse raced past the barn (the barn fell) 19:49:33 or 19:49:39 no 19:49:44 Anyone want to buy a barn fell, cheap? 19:49:46 thats an invalid parse 19:50:01 theres only one valid parse for that sentence, its just garden pathy 19:50:04 the horse, raced past the barn, fell 19:50:19 ok ok listen guys thats not what it means :p 19:50:20 it means 19:50:27 psygnisfive, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo 19:50:29 the horse that was raced past the barn fell down 19:50:29 what about that one? 19:50:36 anmaster: i can get more buffalo than that, actually 19:50:50 i can get 11 19:50:56 without it being incomprehensible to me 19:51:03 "The horse (that was raced past the barn) fell." 19:51:07 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_path_sentence 19:51:07 see 19:51:09 I was right 19:51:09 yes. 19:51:14 thats what i said before :P 19:51:22 the horse, raced past the barn, fell 19:51:22 ok ok listen guys thats not what it means :p 19:51:24 well 19:51:27 that is what I said 19:51:36 no, its not 19:51:41 commas are used for specific things in english 19:51:47 they dont denote relative clauses like in your language 19:51:54 they denote parenthetic commentarys 19:52:03 so your version says, in english at least 19:52:07 psygnisfive, why do you think they do in [my language]? 19:52:13 "the horse raced past the barn of its own accord), and then fell" 19:52:14 and what is [my language]? 19:52:42 * oklopol remembers a horce raced past 19:52:44 i presume you're some sort of finnogermanic like half the rest of #esoteric :P 19:52:45 *horse 19:52:46 psygnisfive, not valid, unmatched parentheses 19:52:49 swonsk, probably 19:52:58 (of its own accord) 19:53:06 psygnisfive, "finnogermanic"? 19:53:10 yes! 19:53:13 finnogermanic. 19:53:17 psygnisfive, what is that then? 19:53:25 its a kind of strudel 19:53:31 "strudel"? 19:53:33 means? 19:53:40 its a pastry? 19:53:46 well 19:53:49 sorry sorry 19:53:52 that doesn't explain anything 19:53:54 let me translate that into finnogermanic 19:53:57 strüssel 19:54:09 psygnisfive, My native language does not have "ü" 19:54:24 strøssel 19:54:26 you mean stryyselä 19:54:29 that too 19:54:31 nor does it have "ø" 19:54:35 and nor is it Finnish 19:54:45 stryyselä is finnish 19:54:46 which I think oerjan was 19:54:49 Mm, Apfelstrudel 19:54:51 oerjan's* 19:54:59 oerjan: apfelküchen 19:55:01 or better yet 19:55:03 oklopol: what does it mean? :D 19:55:09 pflaumenküchen 19:55:13 Anyway 19:55:16 well not sure, but it has "yy", and "ä" 19:55:22 so it must mean something 19:55:22 or or or! 19:55:22 psygnisfive, I don't speak any of the languages you tried 19:55:25 if we're in alsace 19:55:26 oklopol: aye 19:55:27 flammekuche 19:55:28 :O 19:55:36 psygnisfive, So why the insult that I'm some sort of food? 19:55:45 because you're delicious, sir 19:55:48 . 19:55:49 * psygnisfive eats anmaster 19:55:59 * AnMaster gives psygnisfive a bad stomach 19:56:07 i just ate a curry, dont worry 19:56:11 ugh 19:56:11 hey that rhymes 19:56:22 and its about curry! 19:56:25 psygnisfive, and I just ate a lot of garlic. 19:56:33 oh man i love garlic 19:56:33 and I hate curry 19:56:36 is it furry curry, in a hurry? 19:56:36 ok awesome garlic recipe: 19:56:42 ouch wrong one 19:56:43 i am a furry! 19:56:45 ...... 19:56:46 anyway 19:56:47 and im usuaully in a hurry! 19:56:51 step 1: 19:57:03 psygnisfive, I'm from Sweden. I don't speak any of the languages you gussed 19:57:05 take a whole head of garlic and remove the papery outer crap 19:57:05 guessed* 19:57:17 and I still don't get what "finnogermanic" means when used about a person 19:57:20 step 2: cut the tips off the cloves 19:57:21 " i presume you're some sort of finnogermanic like half the rest of #esoteric :P" 19:57:32 step 3: coat with olive oil and sprinkle with oregano 19:57:42 step 4: bake for 45 minutes to an hour at 350 to 400 *F 19:57:50 AnMaster: it means you speak a language of the finnogermanic family *ducks* 19:57:57 step 5: remove, let cool till warm, then up turn and squeeze the sides 19:58:03 oerjan, that still doesn't explain anything 19:58:06 Anmaster: swedish is a north germanic language 19:58:17 psygnisfive, yes and? None of your guesses were correct on Swedish 19:58:19 germanic languages use commas differently than in english, usually for relative clauses 19:58:29 we use åäö 19:58:36 hence why i commented that you're finnogermanic 19:58:37 not ü or ø 19:58:41 psygnisfive: danish uses lots of commas, norwegian not that much 19:58:51 probably. 19:58:54 oerjan, Swedish doesn't use much I think, I guess it is relative though 19:58:57 i know in german atleast commas are relative clauses 19:58:59 like 19:59:12 the boy, that i fucked like a bitch, is named dylan 19:59:28 whereas in english thats completely invalid use of commas 19:59:30 psygnisfive, No pedophiles please 19:59:37 dont worry, he was 13 19:59:41 thats ephebophilia 19:59:50 psygnisfive!*@* added to ignore list. 20:00:04 did he really ignore me? lol 20:00:27 hmm, that's probably in the grey area between pedo- and ephebophilia 20:00:31 oerjan: is it furry curry, in a hurry? <<< furry doesn't rhyme here 20:00:44 oklopol: it does in some dialects 20:00:50 plus, phonemically it does 20:00:52 oklopol, depends on which furry I guess 20:01:07 AnMaster seems to have some kind of phobia of any reference to pedophillia at all 20:01:10 actually, according to wikipedia, that's clearly pedophilia rather than ephebophilia "Ephebophilia refers to the sexual preference for adolescents around 15-19 years of age." 20:01:18 ehird: erm wait? 20:01:24 damn you wikipedia! ruining my humor! 20:01:26 >_< 20:01:55 maybe hebephilia rather than pedophilia though 20:01:58 exactly who was going around joking about tusho rape some while ago... 20:02:04 everyone. 20:02:08 i had a 13-yo gf about a year ago 20:02:14 ah ok. 20:02:16 tusho? 20:02:16 wow oklopol.. 20:02:20 :-D 20:02:21 olsner: tusho = ehird 20:02:38 finland is very liberal innit 20:02:39 olsner, tusho == ehird yes 20:02:48 let me rephrase that as "13-yo gf == tusho?" 20:02:49 ha 20:02:50 dunno, i guess it's illegal 20:02:51 AnMaster: you DIDN'T ignore him 20:02:54 haha 20:03:00 no 20:03:03 ehird, yes I did, why? 20:03:09 16 is the age of consent 20:03:11 tusho is distinctly male, despite the humor of saying he's female 20:03:13 AnMaster: no you didn't , you just confirmed one of his statements 20:03:20 ehird, I just tried to respond to olsner's questions 20:03:31 anmaster, dont lie 20:03:36 i had a 13-yo gf about a year ago 20:03:36 ah ok. 20:03:36 tusho? 20:03:36 :-D 20:03:36 olsner, tusho == ehird yes 20:03:40 that is what I saw 20:03:48 everyone knows that when you ignore someone it doesnt get announced to the world! 20:03:49 or does it... 20:03:58 since he seemed confused I thought I'd explain it 20:04:04 well, it does if you quote the message you got from your client 20:04:06 is that a server specific thing? 20:04:11 ah ok 20:04:23 ? 20:04:30 olsner, now that made no sense heh 20:04:36 see anmaster, thats what happens when you block people 20:04:37 that was definitely a normal message string 20:04:40 tsk tsk 20:04:48 you end up misisng have the conversation! 20:04:49 AnMaster: did i get ignored? wouldn't it be kinda weird to ignore someone for a joke, and not for an actual crime :\ 20:05:07 oklopol, I didn't ignore you oklopol 20:05:08 oklopol: he ignored ME for a joke 20:05:09 so? 20:05:21 *half 20:05:23 psygnisfive: yes, that was my point 20:05:28 oklopol, but you were clearly joking. While psygnisfive seemed serious 20:05:29 actually he ignored me for making fun of him using a joke that he set up in the first place 20:05:29 AnMaster very often says "please no pedophillia" or basically the same wording all the time 20:05:31 *shrug* 20:05:32 for some reason 20:05:37 AnMaster: err, i was not joking 20:05:38 AnMaster: how the fsck did he seem serious 20:05:52 also, how on earth is /ignore the correct reaction to the rape of a child...? 20:05:53 while psygnisfive was clearly joking. 20:05:56 ehird: he doesnt realize that you and i havent actually consummated our love 20:05:58 indeed :D 20:06:02 psygnisfive: quite 20:06:11 besides, im a bottom 20:06:14 ehird, it isn't, but I agree with ais523's reasons too 20:06:14 and you're clearly a top 20:06:17 how could i fuck you 20:06:22 TMI! 20:06:26 I refer to his reasons for ignoring psygnisfive 20:06:35 on any further questions 20:06:36 oerjan: your mind is weak 20:06:41 jesus 20:06:44 oerjan 20:06:50 "ais523's reasons"? 20:06:55 knowing that i prefer cock in my ass than my cock in someone elses ass is TMI? 20:07:01 i mean, its implicit in the fact that im gay 20:07:09 you had BOTH possibilities in your mind before! 20:07:12 now theres only one! 20:07:19 i'd say that's a reduction of information, sir 20:07:25 ok then 20:07:27 everyone knows you're a bottom 20:07:34 i know 20:07:35 who doesnt 20:07:37 you don't talk about anything else 20:07:39 I generally assumed gay men could be both tops and bottoms 20:07:47 i talk about natural language syntax 20:07:49 why would it be implicit that you're a bottom? 20:07:51 olsner: lots are switches 20:08:00 but lots are bottoms 20:08:10 olsner: no i meant it was implicit that i was either a top or a bottom (or a switch) 20:08:29 so by confirming one, im not actually providing MORE information than already provided by the knowledge that im gay 20:08:38 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:08:46 therefore "TMI" is clearly illogical, because im actually ruling out, and thus removing, alternatives 20:08:58 that's what information is 20:08:59 so it cant be too MUCH information, since the result is that theres less! 20:08:59 oh, so when you said you were a bottom you weren't saying that you were not a top? 20:09:05 oklopol: very true very true 20:09:10 fizzie, seems like fungot crashed or such 20:09:12 no no olsner 20:09:14 nevermind 20:09:18 this is complicated 20:09:26 response threads are confusing 20:09:28 but, then you're ruling out possibilities, and thus providing information 20:09:38 too much of which would be too much 20:09:42 yes but thats not the information he (you?) meant 20:09:54 AnMaster: Yes, I tried to do "^code 000f-p" to clear the ignoration counter (talking to it in a query) but for some reason it hung up. Might be some sort of a cfunge incompatibility, actually. 20:09:55 me? he? you? I don't know! 20:10:01 namely, it was implied that the information was was too much was the idea of someones cock in my ass 20:10:04 -!- fungot has joined. 20:10:09 fizzie, hm.... 20:10:12 thats what TMI is used for, after all 20:10:21 things that you dont want to know about 20:10:42 ah, yes, oerjan's mention of information distracted me from the original issue 20:10:42 surely noone would care about the YES/NO of such things, in this scenario, but rather the actual content 20:10:47 namely, cock in ass 20:10:48 fizzie, well that makes no sense, g and p are simple and easy 20:10:58 but theres cock in ass in all three situations, top, bottom, or switch! 20:10:59 olsner: there was an original issue? 20:11:02 thus TMI is unwarranted 20:11:10 oerjan: see what you've done? 20:11:12 fizzie, also did cfunge itself crash or just fungot? 20:11:12 AnMaster: 21:01 bonjovn4 shit and stuff. have fun! 20:11:25 well, explicit mention of "cock in ass" is usually considered TMI 20:11:27 AnMaster: Just fungot, of course. It might've depended on some RC/Funge UNDEF thing. 20:11:27 fizzie: it'd take a while 20:11:36 olsner: sure, but like i said 20:11:40 psygnisfive: do you EVER refrain from quibbling whenever possible? 20:11:42 knowing im gay has IMPLICIT cock-in-ass 20:11:42 but just the bottom/top distinction shouldn't be 20:11:43 fizzie, and if you can reproduce it, rebuild with DEBUG build 20:11:50 fizzie, ah ok 20:11:54 oerjan: this is #esoteric. how could i do such a thing 20:12:10 AnMaster: ^code is implemented by appending "0R" to the input, sticking it into some place of fungespace, loading SUBR and executing a C there. 20:12:25 psygnisfive: you ruin half my jokes by explaining them... 20:12:44 :) 20:12:46 fizzie, can't think of any reason that would crash 20:12:56 (ok maybe TMI wasn't _entirely_ a joke) 20:12:58 well, implicit is still implicit... and bottom/top could very well have referred to submissive/dominant personality traits rather than sexual practice 20:12:58 I'll try it with some tracing. 20:13:09 actually no olsner 20:13:14 bottom/top are distinct from sub/dom 20:13:21 there are subby tops and dommy bottoms 20:13:22 fizzie, could you give a trace of what 1) happens 2) you think should happen instead along with 3) a 4 page description of why ;) 20:13:36 the last isn't needed 20:13:43 now granted, they tend to go together quite frequently 20:13:54 but in straight BDSM its quite common to have femdom 20:14:03 which is almost always a case of a bottom dom 20:14:09 psygnisfive: This is quite irrelevant for #esoteric. 20:14:10 unless the woman has a strapon or something 20:14:12 -!- ais523 has left (?). 20:14:15 Move it to #psygnisfives-sexual-ramblings or something. 20:14:15 ehird: i agree! 20:14:18 hm 20:14:30 yes, let's abort this while we still can :) 20:14:31 but you can blame this on anmaster 20:14:35 ehird, you finally agree with me? 20:14:46 AnMaster: No. psygnisfive: I can blame it on your continuous rambling. 20:14:53 interesting to hear about the finer distinctions though 20:14:55 About utterly irrelevant stuff that nobody here cares about. 20:15:01 olsner: There's always /msg. 20:15:08 true, but we wouldn't've gotten here if anmaster hadn't turned us into a tangent 20:15:27 which was specifically /about/ me and sex 20:15:36 the tangent, while tangential, was still #esoteric's tangent 20:15:37 fizzie, wait SUBR may be relative storage offset differently than for RC/Funge. that is all I can think of 20:15:40 i merely used a sentence as an example, but no, he had to go and act like i was talking 20:15:56 anmaster doesnt know about use/reference distinctions i think :( 20:15:58 fizzie, I remember having to mess with that because Deewiant thought it should have been and so on 20:16:00 someone should teach him 20:16:11 ah no 20:16:19 it was the A/O thing 20:16:32 so uh 20:16:38 asztal was it? 20:16:40 * oklopol cares about weird sex stuff 20:16:44 yep. 20:16:45 who asked me about parsing the garden path sentence? 20:16:52 psygnisfive: I still don't understand why AnMaster ignored you for one sentence that was clearly a joke. 20:16:59 ehird: because hes silly. 20:17:03 now lets move on 20:17:05 psygnisfive: Duh. 20:17:12 indeed, and wouldn't do it to me for a *non* joke 20:17:14 <3 20:17:28 oklopol, how were you dating a 13 year old 20:17:29 * oklopol doesn't like being called a liar 20:17:30 arent you like 20:17:31 20? 20:17:32 oklopol: pedophillia is OK if you don't talk about sex, duh. Now. On to more interesting things 20:17:41 oklopol, PMs! 20:17:47 yes, having sex is fine as long as you don't talk about it 20:17:48 fizzie, there? 20:17:49 asztal: you asked about the parsing right? 20:17:50 ehird: that's better than "you're clearly joking" 20:17:55 fizzie, any progress? 20:18:05 psygnisfive: yes 20:18:12 Deewiant: Yes, the real menace is referencing having sex with underaged peopple. 20:18:20 ok. well, i can only comment about minimalism and parsing 20:18:20 AnMaster: It seems to jump to the right place, execute "000f-p" just fine, but then it hits a 0 and reflects. Seems I've tried to use "A" to append, except that after loading SUBR the A instruction is SUBR's "set absolute mode". 20:18:32 namely, movement based syntax seems hard to parse, but there might be some ways 20:18:48 AnMaster: So now I just wonder why it used to work. Are A/O new things? 20:18:51 fizzie, yes it is, the fingerprint was ret-conned by Deewiant and Mike Riley 20:19:03 fizzie, it would have worked a few weeks back 20:19:12 AnMaster: Ah, okay. 20:19:14 actually a bit over 2 months 20:19:26 fizzie, blame Deewiant for breaking existing apps, which is what I warned would happen 20:19:32 I take no responsibility for that 20:19:39 psygnisfive: I'm also curious what happens if the word order is free (e.g. Hungarian, sort of) 20:19:45 AnMaster: OMG FIZZIE WILL HAVE TO CHANGE A PROGRAM A LITTLE BIT! HOW DARE THEY IMPROVE THINGS 20:19:45 Oh well, the fix is trivial. 20:19:50 Deewiant, see!? I predicted that would happen. 20:19:51 ah well yes free word order is tricky 20:19:56 AnMaster: what ehird said. 20:20:04 minimalist approaches take such things to be something called scrambling 20:20:07 Deewiant: betting he has me on ignore 20:20:15 which is a fancy way of saying "shit aint in the order we expect it to be! :(" 20:20:24 :) 20:20:27 Deewiant, versioned fingerprints. And what ehird said is irrelevant 20:20:43 versioned - mm i love the smell of useless bloat in the morning 20:20:44 it smells like failure. 20:20:50 and what i said is very relevant 20:21:14 i mean 20:21:18 ^reload 20:21:18 Reloaded. 20:21:25 free word order is generally taken to be the result of movement 20:21:34 to whatever place we can figure 20:21:34 Deewiant, And never change existing, unless you reserve instruction/other value for a parameter for future use 20:21:39 for whatever reason we can figure 20:21:57 or just make a new fingerprint 20:24:57 -!- ehird_ has joined. 20:24:58 AnMaster: stop bullshitting 20:25:00 -!- ehird__ has joined. 20:25:05 as fizzie said - the change was trivial 20:25:11 and it improves the fingerprint 20:25:16 what you suggest only adds to bloat for no real gain 20:25:17 huh, why so many clients of yours? 20:25:29 because I'm testing. 20:25:33 anyway. 20:25:42 I still hold the same opinion. 20:25:54 It'd be nice if you offered a real justification, but I know better than that. 20:26:40 ehird_, for a simple reason: Not breaking existing code. 20:27:39 Why do you think the C standard committee avoids breaking changes when possible? Why do you think old functions in both the POSIX standard and on Windows remains? 20:27:53 And they make new ones if the old ones can't be upgraded easily 20:27:59 AnMaster: BECAUSE THAT IS C 20:28:10 ehird, same goes for many other languages. 20:28:10 C IS USED FUCKING. EVERYWHERE. MISSION CRITICAL SYSTEMS DEPEND ON IT. 20:28:17 BEFUNGE IS A FUCKING ESOLANG 20:28:18 FIZZIE 20:28:19 HAD TO CHANGE 20:28:21 LIKE 3 THINGS 20:28:24 IN A _FUCKING IRC BOT_ 20:28:30 no need to shout 20:28:43 yes, there is, because you have a continual and constant failure of basic logic and reasonability 20:29:17 And well why do you think there are no mission critical systems in Befunge? Apart from it being a language where programs are hard to maintain, slow and so on? 20:29:35 AnMaster: maybe because it's an esolang that is slow, whose programs are hard to maintain? 20:29:39 maybe because it's AN ESOLANG 20:29:46 ehird, yes but apart from that :) 20:29:54 ha ha ha you're making a joke to justify your idiocy 20:29:57 very funny, but it's not valid 20:30:35 and I still stand by my point, breaking changes lead to bitrot 20:30:47 in a language hard to maintain this is even worse 20:31:11 I never questioned that; I just said that such programs would be written by people in this channel. fizzie hasn't disproved that yet. 20:31:15 AnMaster: To follow in the vein of your beaurocracy, please compile a list of programs that have been broken by the change, and your assesment of how hard it will be to fix them. 20:31:24 Once you can, then I will concede. 20:31:37 If you cannot, then I will continue to call your logic retarded andy our point invalid. 20:33:17 ehird, I'm not omniscient, I can't know everything, if I were, such a change would be trivial, since I would be able to tell all affected. 20:33:37 AnMaster: Occams razor dictates that the change is fine. 20:34:07 ehird, I don't see how you mean. 20:34:37 AnMaster: Considering your failure at logic I am not surprised. 20:34:38 Deewiant, also well what about other places? Not everyone is here, for example Mike Riley often isn't 20:35:06 ehird, well I do know what Occams razor is, I don't see what it has to do with breaking changes 20:35:18 ehird, so unless you can justify that? 20:35:42 AnMaster: Generally trivial logic that a 3-year-old could understand does not need justification. Your warped sense of reality, however, does. 20:35:46 AnMaster: and has he written a program broken by this change? Perhaps, but he was of course aware of the change. :-P 20:35:59 Deewiant, yes, but that shows there may be other ones 20:36:07 yes, there may be 20:36:11 my point was that there likely aren't 20:36:16 ehird, well then you don't seem to have anything valid to add, if you refuse to explain yourself 20:37:01 AnMaster: Trivial, undeniable, simple logic does not need justification. Your fucked-up justifications that turn out to actually be illogical do. 20:37:17 ehird, I'm still waiting for your justification. I have given my reasons. 20:37:36 AnMaster: I have adequately explained why only an idiot would need justification of a basic application of Occam's Razor. 20:37:41 ehird, I'm still waiting for your justification. I have given my reasons. 20:37:42 Do you want me to treat you as an idiot? I can if you want. 20:38:04 It can still break programs. It can be hard to debug. 20:38:13 Befunge programs are notorious for that. 20:38:19 Please read up. Thanks. 20:38:23 ^^^^^^ up there. 20:39:37 ehird, and I'm waiting for justification. Yes you prefer the simple solution. But I argue breaking existing programs that complies to the then published specs is not valid 20:39:50 There. Is. Nothing. To. Justify. 20:39:53 why do you think there is Funge-98 and Befunge-93? 20:40:04 Why not just rewrite "Befunge" as it was then known 20:40:16 there was indeed a reason. 20:40:17 Jesus christ you are an idiot. Now I have to put you on /ignore in all of 3 clients. 20:40:22 ehird, same 20:52:20 fungot: at least _you_ are reasonable, right? 20:52:21 oerjan: how's the scheme workshop of 2002, if i'm having connection issues, how would you answer ' which would be exactly that. 20:52:36 fungot: i'm sorry, i wasn't there 20:52:36 oerjan: the cygwin page does say programs need to work much better.) originally developed by miller puckette and company at fnord. 20:53:54 fungot: the guys at fnord made cygwin?! 20:53:54 Deewiant: that's using generators. for streams see srfi-40 or http://xmog.com/ scrap/ show/ fnord 20:54:15 fungot: xmog.com doesn't look like cygwin 20:54:15 Deewiant: a lisp in php 20:54:31 fungot: sounds disgusting 20:54:31 Deewiant: is there a special compiler i'll need, or to print to the channel 20:55:04 fungot: for that lisp in PHP? Probably yes 20:55:05 Deewiant: making your code `portable' only by virtue of the discussion flatt changed some of my init.el" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ 274 20:55:44 fungot: You're quite the lisper these days. 20:55:45 fizzie: don't encourage him. it was created 20:55:58 fungot: Sounds suspiciously religious. 20:55:58 fizzie: i can't make out what you mean 20:56:09 fungot: that's some ugly lisp there 20:56:09 Deewiant: painful i/ o 20:56:33 fungot: try haskell 20:56:33 oerjan: it's the cryptogram type puzzle fairly quickly 20:56:56 fungot: Quite accurate, actually! 20:56:56 Deewiant: i don't really care about the finer points of old crotch blended highland scotch whiskey. 20:57:01 fungot: oh come on it's not _that_ weird 20:57:01 oerjan: it's very awesome 20:57:02 ew 20:57:06 old crotch blended? 20:57:17 O_O 20:57:28 something psygnisfive would like, i'm sure 20:57:37 what? 20:57:44 fungot: so wait, you don't care about the /finer points/? 20:57:45 Deewiant: if you can turn this into 20:57:46 maybe 20:58:10 fungot just wants to get drunk, he doesn't care about the finer points of the crotch-blended whsikey. 20:58:10 fizzie: it has the same illness as i do 20:58:26 fungot: I did not need to know that. 20:58:27 Deewiant: but printing ')' 20:58:32 Not everything is all right with that bot. 20:58:45 fizzie: mispleing whiskey is a bad omen 20:59:01 Drinking alcohol blended with old crotches and then getting illnesses from it? No, everything is certainly not right. 20:59:24 Deewiant: now now, remember strong alcohol is a disinfectant. i think. 20:59:37 oerjan: not if you get illnesses from it it isn't :-P 21:00:00 fungot: Do you think you'd feel better after a rewrite? 21:00:01 fizzie: are/ were any problems with hard disk space on a measly 40 gb drive. 21:00:36 fungot: Actually you only have a ~20 GB drive, but don't worry, only the language models take up much space. 21:00:36 fizzie: too slow to perform the o(n) resize once every n inserts 21:01:33 fungot: are you doing something fizzie doesn't know about? 21:01:33 oerjan: egobot does not flood. 21:01:55 indeed, no longer 21:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | let __ = __ in __ :: t. 21:07:55 ye olde infinite loope 21:08:28 (actually probably trapped) 21:08:44 What, it's a trap? 21:09:02 ghc traps simple infinite loops 21:09:25 those that reevaluate the exact same expression 21:10:35 SWI-Prolog has an amusing easter egg if you ask it a query like "X." but I've probably mentioned it on this very channel already. 21:10:46 i realized the other day it's actually quite trivial to notice you're reevaluating something, after you do it once, you're in a cycle, and it's enough to store one state in the cycle, and check if it appears again 21:10:56 it reappears iff there's a loop 21:11:37 The cycle might start later than that one state you've stored. 21:11:48 yes, but it's enough to change the stored state every now and then 21:11:56 hmm... 21:11:58 fizzie, I believe you were saying you would have used ATHR and so on? 21:12:02 Then you might not notice the cycle if it's long enough. 21:12:03 fizzie, http://rafb.net/p/YpkaJU36.html may interest you 21:12:07 current progress 21:12:10 fizzie: yeah 21:12:10 in the local feature branch 21:12:16 that's actually quite true 21:13:33 hm 21:13:46 i think my formalism might be equivalent to CCGs 21:13:50 If I have free time and the inclination to do a fungot rewrite, I might consider some form of ATHR-style threading. 21:13:51 fizzie: it's only the html pages are served up using lighttpd, and the 21:14:08 fizzie, be aware of that efunge is slower than even rc/funge 21:14:29 it is more for "interest feature ideas" than "raw performance" 21:14:51 it will never be as fast 21:15:09 Well, the IRC thing isn't really very speed-critical. If something's too slow to implement on the Brainfuck interp, I can do it as a "native" command. 21:15:11 and cfunge will never have all those weird fingerprints. Just the more tame ones. 21:15:42 fizzie, also SOCK hm, I will probably do my NSCK idea (which fixed lots of issues with SOCK/SCKE) 21:15:57 maybe SOCK too, but it was kind of messy to implement 21:18:35 Well, we'll see. I may start simply by cleaning up the existing code a bit. And I still lack the good editor. 21:28:33 o 21:31:28 oko 21:32:58 ^oko ok 21:32:58 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ... 21:33:18 One, Two, Infinity 21:35:18 banananananananananonokokokokokokokokokokoko 21:35:26 night all 21:36:42 numbers N for which doing NN for any a hyper operator is the identity function? 21:36:54 errrr 21:37:00 not identity, but all produce the same result 21:37:44 what is a hyper operator? 21:38:10 oh you mean the ones i said 21:38:25 2+2, 2*2, 2^2, 2\/-2, 2&"2, ... 21:38:33 what about zero? 21:38:36 yeah 21:38:39 was just thinking that 21:38:55 hmm 21:38:59 what's 0^0... 21:39:04 1 21:39:09 darn 21:39:10 0*0!=1 21:39:22 also 0^0 isn't usually defined afaik 21:39:28 Our high-school mathematics teacher used to say 0^0 is mickey mouse with one ear missing. 21:39:46 (Meaning: not very defined.) 21:39:51 0^^(0^0), on the other hand... 21:39:56 no but i vaguely recall discussions that said 1 is the most reasonable value 21:40:09 oerjan: most likely yes 21:40:17 sounds feasibool 21:41:17 A feasibool is like a bool value, but it can only take values that are (semantically speaking) feasible. 21:41:52 According to p. 408 of Knuth (1992), [0^0] "has to be 1". 21:42:17 Well, if Knuth says so, who am I to argue. 21:42:36 It's the "appeal to authority" method of proof. 21:43:07 lol - [Global Notice] Hi all. At 19:30 UTC, in two hours, we'd like to ask everyone to observe a minute of silence in sympathy with the victims of the terrorist attacks on September 11, their loved ones and friends. Channel admins, if you'd like to participate, please +m your channel for a minute and optionally deop at that time. Thanks. 21:43:16 (from 2001-09-13) 21:43:19 Or is it "Proof by eminent authority"? The example is given as: "I saw Karp in the elevator and he said it was probably NP-complete." 21:44:11 fizzie: proof by knuth 21:44:24 Oh, it has a separate category. 21:45:27 :P 21:45:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karp%27s_21_NP-complete_problems 21:45:59 That page was in my browser cache. 21:46:33 mine too i assume, since i saw it yesterday 21:51:02 :O 21:51:16 i found the perfect outlet for my computery languageu urges! 21:51:16 :O 21:51:26 languagey* 21:58:48 Porno? 21:59:14 ##compling 21:59:15 :O 21:59:31 computational linguistics? has an IRC channel? 22:00:03 Probably a support group after that mean xkcd strip. 22:01:27 I've also found an outlet for my computer language-y urges. 22:01:31 Programming language research. 22:07:23 also known as bantering in #esoteric? :P 22:07:59 i mean language-y in the natural language sens,e gregorr :P 22:09:22 olsner: no he's moved on to the real world now 22:09:44 oh, real world... how boring :) 22:09:45 i found the perfect outlet for my computery languageu urges! 22:09:49 Computery. 22:09:57 what? 22:10:29 'computery' = kindergarten 'computational' 22:10:45 computationalative languagation 22:11:45 Computationalaxative lenguanation 22:14:12 de linguis non est computandum 22:14:45 computationalativatiosivecious 22:14:51 err 22:14:55 lol 22:14:56 no. 22:14:57 i have two ouses 22:15:11 psygnisfive: no, yes. 22:15:17 :D 22:16:03 you can put any number of suffices on an english root, and it'll be pretty and cute. 22:16:23 hmph 22:16:28 i also had "-ive" twice 22:16:45 i'd put my suffix on your root, if you know what i mean 22:16:54 :D 22:17:02 computationalativatiosiveciousness 22:17:34 you have too ciouses and ives too 22:17:44 i just copied and pasted yours 22:17:46 and ness makes it a noun 22:17:52 SO? 22:17:57 ARE YOU PLAGIARIZING MY FAILURE 22:18:01 yes. 22:18:03 i just told you 22:18:08 i'd put my suffix on your root 22:18:22 I'll put my suffix on YOUR root. 22:18:26 technically i put it on your stem 22:18:30 since the root is "compute' 22:18:33 but still 22:18:40 i'll put my root on your *mother*'s suffix 22:18:49 :( 22:19:13 ...err do gays have mothers, actually? 22:19:23 *facepalm* 22:19:29 :D 22:19:29 no 22:19:32 They sprout from rocks and/or eggs. 22:19:42 usually rocks. 22:19:53 hence our affinity for metal and metal-related things 22:20:05 thus all our clubs are named accordingly 22:20:23 i like metal... 22:20:31 I'm allergic to chrome. 22:20:48 im allergic to vagina. 22:20:49 GregorR: we all know you gods hate fags 22:21:05 oklopol: Hey I swapped my personality back. 22:21:15 unless its on a guy, in which case its powers of rash are reduced significantly 22:21:19 oh you did? 22:21:25 sorry then 22:21:47 :P 22:21:52 you didn't tell us 22:22:06 No, it reverts automatically after a timeout. 22:22:11 this is why all the gayness has been bottled up tonight, we were scared of you 22:22:22 i bottled up nothing! 22:22:23 i see, i see 22:22:36 i should get back to reading 22:22:39 does that mean we can cancel the protest against you? 22:23:05 it's just the book is excruciatingly hard to read :P 22:23:11 http://codu.org/pics/other/pec2.jpg 22:23:12 as good books should be 22:23:16 what book? 22:23:37 better gregorr 22:23:42 much better 22:24:12 psygnisfive: still the same book 22:24:32 now maybe add a long shadow-reflect with the same angle as the shadow-reflect of your right leg 22:24:53 oklopol: what book 22:25:09 algorithm design by eva tardos and jon kleinberg 22:25:13 ah ok 22:25:32 read the first 600 pages for a course, but need to read the rest for another one 22:25:44 and the last few hundred pages are complete mindfuck 22:25:46 im going to read some lecture notes (essentially a book) from an MIT math-for-CS class 22:25:54 so its all discrete math and combinatorics and stuff 22:25:59 she never wrote another book, since that would be retarded 22:26:10 (and no one dl this somewhere and tell me it's simple or i will slap you with my trout) 22:26:35 oklopol: gimme? 22:26:42 i just have it in book form 22:26:47 oh i see 22:26:48 and i managed to destroy even that 22:26:49 ok 22:26:55 by soaking it in water for about a day 22:27:01 :P 22:27:14 oklopol: you have a trout? 22:27:20 i get about 200e a month, 78.6 euros for a book, and i destroy it in a week :) 22:27:31 oerjan: tons of them 22:27:38 yeah but you live with your parents, oklopol 22:27:42 that's how i use the remaining 121.4e 22:27:51 psygnisfive: i do? 22:27:55 i tought you did 22:28:00 last i heard from you you did! 22:28:02 * oklopol is gay and lives with his parents 22:28:19 err 22:28:20 how can you be gay, you have a girlfriend, dont be silly 22:28:31 i doubt i've lived with my parents during the time you've known me 22:28:40 moved out near february 22:28:46 hm. 22:28:53 well whatever, it doesnt matter 22:28:55 you've both been here longer than that haven't you? 22:28:57 indeed it doesn't 22:29:06 i dont know if ive been here since february 22:29:07 mightve 22:29:13 but you *did* live with your parents! hah! 22:29:13 whatever. 22:29:30 actually he was an orphan 22:29:32 never adopted 22:29:42 oh, poor sod 22:29:43 raised in an orphanage his entire life 22:29:48 -!- ehird__ has quit ("Leaving"). 22:29:48 -!- ehird_ has quit ("Leaving"). 22:29:55 his parents were murderers you see 22:30:01 the killed him!? 22:30:04 no no 22:30:07 but my parents live in this city, i do get moneys from them if i need 22:30:19 he killed them!? 22:30:20 from their hit jobs 22:30:26 i don't, though, 200 is enough for my needs 22:30:32 they killed people by forming queues at convenience stores at 3am 22:30:32 usually 22:30:38 queues 22:30:40 ueues 22:30:42 eues 22:30:44 ues 22:30:45 es 22:30:45 s 22:30:47 and then they were arrested 22:30:50 a little pyramid for ya 22:31:00 it was sad, really 22:31:02 or a queue being de-queued 22:31:04 yay! now i can sharpen my razors 22:31:16 on the queuepyramid? 22:31:36 no, inside it, silly 22:31:54 inside the queuepyramid? 22:31:55 oh yes! 22:32:00 because pyramids sharpen things 22:32:04 silly me 22:32:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_power 22:32:25 have i mentioned that i despise those people? 22:32:28 those newagists 22:32:31 nutballs 22:32:40 ^cho queues 22:32:40 queuesueueseuesuesess 22:32:50 Added back that missing echochohoo. 22:33:00 lolwhut 22:33:15 psygnisfive: i thought you liked balls with nuts 22:33:32 balls WITH nuts? 22:33:35 thats a bit extreme there 22:33:41 i'll take just either, thanks 22:34:07 * oerjan thought the nuts were the things inside the balls 22:34:26 Put the nuts in the pyramid, you'll get them sharpened. 22:34:40 wait, what, no, the nuts *are* the balls 22:34:43 http://web.mac.com/arnold_zwicky/BizarroErrors.gif lulz 22:35:08 * psygnisfive knuffelt olsner's balls 22:35:52 hm it seems so 22:36:02 that's a quite severe invasion of privacy there, psygnisfive 22:36:20 no knuffeling allowed without permission 22:36:41 would you rather i knuffel your ass? 22:36:43 kein Verknuffelung! 22:36:58 :| 22:37:10 im going to lay down 22:37:18 im exhaustedish 22:37:23 * psygnisfive hugs oklopol <3 22:37:40 only -ish? then you can't be exhausted! 22:37:52 you'd have to settle for very tired, IMO 22:37:56 im not exhausted 22:38:00 hence why i said exhaustedish! 22:38:51 * olsner exclaims "meh!" 22:58:25 hugsssssssss 23:01:00 well, nighto' 23:01:05 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:12:47 nn 23:13:14 nanonine 23:17:43 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:18:15 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 23:36:46 oooooooooooooooooooooo 2008-10-21: 00:09:42 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 00:15:26 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:49:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 01:03:21 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 01:21:29 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:24:40 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:51:16 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:00:24 -!- cathyal has joined. 02:00:54 -!- zbrown has left (?). 02:30:56 -!- cathyal has quit. 03:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ;). 03:14:34 optbot! 03:14:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | there's so much room for experimental error there. 03:20:24 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 03:28:19 -!- immibis has joined. 03:34:13 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Connection reset by peer). 03:40:47 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 03:41:10 -!- ab5tract has joined. 03:45:31 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:57:06 -!- immibis has joined. 04:20:49 -!- Slereah has joined. 04:34:46 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:00:08 anyone know how to set the storage offset in funge 93? 05:00:35 is it x y value "p" ? 05:01:19 "In Funge-98, each IP has an additional vector property called the storage offset. Initially this vector is the set to the origin. As such, it works to emulate Befunge-93. The arguments to g and p are the same, but instead of pointing to absolute locations in Funge-Space, they reference a cell relative to the storage offset. " 05:01:41 right 05:01:50 befunge-93 does not have a storage offset 05:02:06 so as long as the offset is 0 in funge-98, it works just like befunge-93 05:02:26 i meant 98 sorry 05:02:28 not 93 05:02:35 ah, no idea 05:07:38 { can set it, but not to an arbitrary value 05:09:20 (there was also a dynamic fingerprint spec from Jeffrey Lee that allowed setting the haunted IP's storage offset, but I don't think that spec is implemented) 05:18:30 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 05:40:47 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 05:51:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 05:55:21 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 06:10:50 -!- ab5tract has quit. 06:13:27 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:41:33 0{02-u0} sets the storage offset. 06:42:47 Uh, with a $$ afterwards to get rid of the actual storage offset. 06:46:59 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:48:35 -!- Judofyr has joined. 07:03:51 -!- olsner has joined. 07:12:38 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:12:53 -!- oklocod has joined. 07:16:39 -!- blah has joined. 07:16:54 -!- blah has left (?). 07:17:07 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has quit (Nick collision from services.). 07:17:37 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has joined. 07:22:07 -!- omniscient_idiot has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:22:13 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 08:57:19 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 09:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | *show. 09:13:14 fizzie, indeed 09:13:21 Asztal, so easy enough to set 09:23:01 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:23:31 -!- Judofyr has joined. 09:51:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:30:42 -!- puzzlet has joined. 10:31:55 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:33:37 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 10:56:00 fyugyof druyoögh 11:06:21 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:06:48 -!- Judofyr has joined. 11:09:21 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:09:46 -!- Judofyr has joined. 11:20:14 -!- LinuS has joined. 11:21:12 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 12:14:27 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 12:31:30 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 12:44:14 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:51:37 hi optbot 12:51:37 oklocod: really? It looks nice? 12:51:44 yes, it sure does 12:51:47 that's why i like you, optbot 12:51:48 oklocod: TinyWM. 12:52:04 well yes, it's pretty tiny 12:52:09 but it's not all about the size, oklocod 12:52:10 ... 12:52:11 optbot 12:52:12 oklocod: I like your new website, but the articles are all missing. I remember reading about ESO OS, and now...? 12:52:29 optbot: you must be confusing me with someone else 12:52:30 oklocod: Get all the latest offers on chocolate bar accessories! 12:52:40 :| 12:54:47 optbot: How's life? 12:54:48 GregorR: And besides... 12:54:56 optbot: Useful response. 12:54:56 GregorR: I don't think I should really include the VARG() variations 12:55:08 optbot: You have no intelligence at all, do you? 12:55:09 GregorR: i don't think it's bread 12:55:16 Well spoken. 13:01:15 optbot: Your HEAD is full of BREAD. 13:01:16 fizzie: (I'd really like to pick up keigo a bit, though. . . That looks interesting, moderately difficult, yet worthwhile) 13:08:45 GregorR: language design job where what tell all that is not secret 13:09:04 hope that made as much sense it was intended to make. 13:09:10 *ass it 13:09:39 If it was intended to make no sense whatsoever, then it did. 13:09:44 :) 13:09:45 well 13:09:55 you're a professional language designer nowadays, huh? 13:10:14 No, I'm a grad student, but that does mean that I'm paid to do language research, yeah. 13:10:39 ah 13:10:39 i see 13:11:00 will you tell more details 13:11:16 like, what are you researching, or just something general you can't put it into words 13:11:16 On ... what? 13:11:45 Oh. Well, I'm a first year first semester, so whatever I fall into, but right now I'm working on a team designing an extensible language 13:11:46 :P 13:12:36 that may be enough to silence my curiosity for now 13:13:13 Well, it's a joint research project with IBM so I may not be able to say more. 13:15:03 i see 13:15:09 it's just i liked plof :-P 13:15:16 Plof is by no means dead. 13:15:32 by that i meant, i'm interested in what you cook up. 13:15:37 Ah. 13:15:55 Well, I'm sure I'll be in here bragging about any publications, but that probably won't happen 'til next year or so :P 13:16:09 hehe :P 13:17:15 btw, if ibm's involved, i'm pretty sure you'd know if you weren't allowed to say anything 13:17:43 and by that i don't mean "come on, tell me more", just general wonderingnessment. 13:18:31 i mean, google made me swear not to tell even though i'm basically just clicking "spam/not spam" buttons for them. 13:59:26 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol. 14:26:20 oklopol 14:26:26 are you on zbb????? 14:26:53 why do you ask? 14:28:21 optbot 14:28:21 oklopol: Strangely the "%d" gets replaced by nothing whatsoever. 14:28:27 someone recently started a thread on that "why did you bring that book ..." sentence up 14:28:33 s/up// XD 14:28:50 ok im off. class. mandarin. :D 14:28:57 zajian 14:29:01 that wasn't me, and i haven't seen tha 14:29:03 *that 14:29:12 but i've been randomly browsing zbb 14:29:19 ok 14:29:35 ill tell you how i think movement parsing should go, just not now 14:29:36 kbye 14:29:49 see ya 15:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | h or H - say "Hello World". 15:40:14 -!- Nawak has joined. 15:40:27 ? 15:41:24 -!- Nawak has left (?). 15:49:36 -!- Corun has joined. 16:15:10 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 16:41:45 hm idea for another fingerprint: Fungespace Query Language 16:41:45 :D 16:42:08 fizzie, Deewiant ^ 16:42:23 Slereah_: Why is your ident "jewbutt"? 16:42:55 also I got a good idea for how to *represent* semaphores in ATHR 16:42:58 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:43:14 Hm. 16:43:58 since it uses a library-metaphor for mutexes, just making the library have several copies of the same book in stock 16:44:07 however implementing this would be complex for me 16:44:27 in fact I need to write my own lock server then, and that would need to handle distributed stuff 16:44:29 and so on 16:44:59 oh another problem: Funge-Space bounds updates 16:49:06 * ehird thinks about natural language parsing 16:49:20 FSQL sounds awesome 16:49:43 FS? FQL 16:49:46 i'm sure i could parse "the karma of the person who said 'indeed'" 16:49:50 AnMaster: fungespace 16:49:51 =fs 16:49:52 hmm 16:49:57 -!- asiekierka has joined. 16:49:58 BOO! 16:49:59 "karma of person who said 'indeed'" 16:50:04 -> "karma of (person said "indeed")" 16:50:08 but yeah it does sound great 16:50:12 Someone remembers my TaxiBot project? 16:50:21 you gave it up yes 16:50:24 No, i'm not going back to work on it 16:50:25 -> select ?person, ?karma where { ?person :said "indeed" . ?person :karma ?karma . } 16:50:28 surely i could parse that, 16:50:28 But i planned to make a Taxi-like languagwe 16:50:29 :D 16:50:30 language 16:50:32 but different 16:50:34 called Bus 16:50:51 i mean 16:50:54 karma of (person said "indeed") 16:50:54 basically, there's a set of buses running different trails (which you set at the beginning of the program), max buses amount is 10. 16:50:56 -> 16:51:07 v1 = person said "indeed" 16:51:10 v2 = karma of person 16:51:11 -> 16:51:14 And you can set commands to a different bus, but you can't move something from one bus to another, you must use a standing point 16:51:14 ehird: why is "person" the referent in (person said "indeed"), and not, say, "indeed"? 16:51:18 Which there will be, plenty 16:51:19 ?person said "indeed" 16:51:22 ?karma of ?person 16:51:26 -> 16:51:39 Every bus will be a FIFO stack 16:51:39 select ?person, ?karma where { ?person :said "indeed" . ?person :karma ?karma . } 16:51:43 oklopol: because "indeed" is a quoted string. 16:51:46 with a limit of 15 16:51:54 asiekierka, Fungespace Query Language 16:51:58 ehird: elaborate 16:52:00 also, ehird, what's the language? 16:52:05 oklopol: well, what do you mean 16:52:08 it's FQL? 16:52:14 asiekierka: Trying to parse restricted English into SPARQL. 16:52:18 the person said "indeed", which is a funny word 16:52:25 oklopol: and? 16:52:29 (person said "indeed") is a funny word 16:52:38 ehird, hm did I miss something had you on ignore still there 16:52:38 because 16:52:41 you say: 16:52:41 anyway 16:52:47 it would look like this: 16:52:48 but here, "indeed" is the referent 16:52:50 oklopol: the karma of the person who said "indeed" 16:53:00 oklopol: phrase it in the other interpretation, i'll tell you how it parses down 16:53:23 Hmm 16:53:24 phrase what in the other interpretation 16:53:36 oklopol: the "karma of indeed" thing 16:53:37 :P 16:53:39 I wonder whether should i make an ircREGbotXY 16:53:43 phrase it in the full english 16:53:43 like my 16:53:47 the karma of the person who said "indeD" 16:53:49 "X > 2 & X < 5 & (Y > 5 | Y < 3)" 16:53:53 0"X > 2 & X < 5 & (Y > 5 | Y < 3)"S 16:53:54 even 16:54:03 though it would actually be reversed 16:54:06 the karma of the "indeed" said by a person 16:54:09 since it would be a 0"gnirts" 16:54:37 actually no 16:54:41 oklopol: -> karma of ("indeed" said by person) 16:54:42 it should use prefix notation 16:55:18 ehird: so the *position* inside the parens was what made "person" the referent 16:55:20 0"(& (> X 2) (< X 5) (| (> Y 5) (< Y 3)))"S 16:55:26 oklopol: uhh, yeah... 16:55:37 but again reversed of course 16:55:43 nevertheless, i have no idea what you're talking about :P 16:55:56 anyone: what do you think? 16:56:09 oklopol: i'm trying to make it so that you'll be able to: 16:56:14 botte, what is the karma of the person who said "indeed"? 16:56:19 and it'll reply like 16:56:21 Hey, is REGXY a good esolang? 16:56:24 ah. 16:56:26 person=ehird, karma=-454 16:56:30 person=oklopol, karma=3478234234 16:56:30 0"(& (> X 2) (< X 5) (| (> Y 5) (< Y 3)))"S to return a list of (top of stack first) Count,X,Y,Value,X,Y,Value 16:56:36 person=botte, karma=STACK OVERFLOW 16:56:45 so total cell count 3 * Count + 1 (for count itself) 16:56:50 assuming befunge 16:56:50 oklopol: "said", here, refers to a complete line, actually 16:56:55 what about my karma 16:57:03 ah wait, that wouldn't work for more than trefunge 16:57:08 since Z... 16:57:09 asiekierka: So low it overflow. :P 16:57:09 so 16:57:11 That rhymes. 16:57:26 what is the karma of the person for whom it's true that e happened to say "indeed" at some point 16:57:31 So low it overflows, for the good of water flows. 16:57:42 X=$1 Y=$2 Z=$3 and so on 16:57:46 Uh... That didn't make any sense, but it RHYMES! 16:57:48 Oh wait 16:57:50 a Rhyme esolang! 16:57:59 or not 16:58:00 no, not 16:58:25 rhymesssss! 16:58:38 One problem with REGXY 16:58:40 there's no I/O 16:59:10 Except if we modify either regular expressions or add a command. 16:59:22 what is the karma of the person for whom it's true that e happened to say "indeed" at some point 16:59:27 at this point botte says "go fuck yourself". 17:00:30 why? is it liek stuppid 17:00:42 my INTERNET IS NOT working :< 17:00:50 oklopol: you could just say "what's the karma of the person who said 'indeed'" 17:00:51 :P 17:01:20 RWLR -> RLWR... Read Left, Write Right... hmm... 17:02:30 An useless language. ^ - input a char, put it in the current cell, and move left. If you're at 0, move to the end of the cell memory. AND v - Write the current cell, and move right. If you're at the end of the cell memory, move to 0. THIS IS USELESS!!! 17:02:45 ^vv - a simple CAT one char program 17:02:48 Basically 17:02:51 You say "a" 17:02:59 and it outputs \0 a 17:03:00 -!- M0ny has joined. 17:03:20 s/Write/Output 17:03:30 asiekierka: yeah sounds pretty useless 17:03:30 oklopol: here is my current stoopid parser thingy 17:03:31 parser = ( 17:03:31 ('the ?', lambda x: x), 17:03:31 ('? of ?', lambda x, y: Of(x, y)), 17:03:31 ) 17:04:20 ehird, nice 17:04:22 Aggg no terminals. 17:04:47 plop 17:04:59 ehird: "? of ?" is pretty useful :P 17:05:05 oklopol: whaddya mean :-p 17:05:08 a of b and c of d 17:05:11 ehird, hm what happened to ais523? Got any idea why the bouncer isn't connected? 17:05:16 O(a, b and c of d) 17:05:18 *Of 17:05:31 AnMaster: FOR FUCKS SAKE AIS523 IS NOT YOUR PERSONAL IRC-BUDDY 17:05:37 ^show 17:05:37 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp oko cho choo 17:05:38 IF THE BOUNCER ISN'T CONNECTED THAT'S BECAUSE HE'S DOING SOMETHING ELSE, OKAY? 17:05:40 Uh 17:05:44 jeeeez 17:05:45 What's CTCP, OKO, CHO and CHOO 17:05:47 ^show ctcp 17:05:47 +.,[.,]+. 17:05:49 oklopol: what about it 17:05:50 ehird, when did I claim he was? 17:05:52 indeed, ais is mine 17:05:52 ^show oko 17:05:52 >,[>,]<[<]>[>[.>]<[<]>] 17:05:54 ^show cho 17:05:54 >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>] 17:05:55 ^show choo 17:05:55 >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>] 17:06:00 ^cho wtf? 17:06:00 wtf?tf?f?? 17:06:00 MINE 17:06:02 ^choo wtf? 17:06:03 wtf? tf? f? ? 17:06:06 AnMaster: When you implied that ais523 doing something than being on irc is a total anomaly. 17:06:10 choo choo choo 17:06:13 ^ctcp choo 17:06:25 oklopol: 'a of b and c of d' would be: 17:06:31 ^ctcp I SEE NEW COMMANDS WERE ADDED. 17:06:32 ehird, usually the bouncer is still connected. But that wasn't the case 17:06:39 oklopol: And(Of(a,b), Of(c,d)) 17:06:48 ^ctcp rocks ... I SEE NEW COMMANDS WERE ADDED. 17:06:50 ehird: and why exactly would it be that? 17:06:51 AnMaster: because he /parted here when psygnisfive was talking about sex. 17:06:53 ^oko lol 17:06:53 olololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololo ... 17:06:55 oklopol: why wouldn't it be? 17:07:00 ^oko asiekierka 17:07:00 siekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierka ... 17:07:01 ehird, ah 17:07:28 ehird: because it could just as well be 17:07:36 oklopol: could just as well be what 17:07:38 Of(a, And(b, Of(c, d))) 17:07:44 yes 17:07:46 it could 17:07:51 I'm working on a esolang 17:07:55 oklopol: that's why there's precedence 17:08:02 Oh, I added cho and choo (they used to be called echochohoo and echo_cho_ho_o) back today. 17:08:07 precedance 17:08:23 ^cho cho 17:08:23 chohoo 17:08:26 oklopol: stuff higher up the parser list gets chosen first. 17:08:28 ^choo choo 17:08:28 choo hoo oo o 17:08:39 fizzie, hm ATHR will have issues for y, basically the bounds will be async updated. 17:08:50 ehird: err what? 17:08:56 oklopol: what 17:09:08 "higher up the parser list" 17:09:12 i don't know what that means 17:09:14 AnMaster: Well, I personally don't really care much what 'y' says. 17:09:15 oklopol: 17:09:16 parser = ( 17:09:16 ('the ?', lambda x: x), 17:09:16 ('? and ?', And), 17:09:16 ('? of ?', Of), 17:09:18 ) 17:09:21 ah 17:09:22 stuff coming first gets changed first. 17:09:25 that parser list. 17:09:25 *chosen 17:09:30 -!- Judofyr has quit. 17:09:36 A cat program looks like: 17:09:37 _ 17:09:43 $ 17:09:52 there's a space between _ and $ though 17:09:59 And it's bit-based 17:10:26 fizzie, well issue is that you have to select at command line if you want ATHR support, there is no way to not make this utterly slow or async, And since async when ATHR isn't loaded would mess up with mycology... Well. 17:10:45 AnMaster: s/well issue/the issue/ 17:10:57 ehird, "well," too 17:11:03 yes 17:11:05 well, the issue 17:11:09 indeed 17:11:15 s/to not/not to/ 17:11:20 s/issue/tissue/ 17:11:29 fizzie, also I got an idea for semaphores: The library may have more than one copy of some books in stock. 17:11:30 s/the/mother/ 17:11:34 AnMaster: s/got/have/ 17:11:43 ehird, ok... 17:11:57 actually that could be a literal "got" 17:11:57 It has control flow by... walls. Somehow 17:12:08 say you got the idea yesterday or something 17:12:30 asiekierka, a 2D language where the IP reflects according to the law of physics? 17:12:47 you need some way to make it have a non-trivial speed, direction and so on 17:12:50 oklopol: 'i thought of an idea' 17:13:06 http://rafb.net/p/5F9sTk22.html 17:13:08 "befunge on reals", does that sound enough like "ruby on rails" to be a pun? 17:13:15 Dots = Bits 17:13:15 i guess it doesn't 17:13:15 :) 17:13:21 asiekierka, and all cells it intersects with on the way... Well those it will execute the instruction in 17:13:35 even if that isn't what you thought it is a nice idea 17:13:42 What 17:13:48 the thing i linked to on rafb? 17:14:11 DOBELA - DOt-Based Esoteric LAnguage, a proposed name 17:14:13 ehird: "got" is fine, your mother and your face 17:14:20 asiekierka, oh naming something cat is a bad idea, since that is the tool used dump files to the terminal on *nix. Like type in cmd.exe (if you use windows) 17:14:37 i didn't name anything "cat" 17:14:41 A cat program looks like: 17:14:42 yes you did 17:14:47 well 17:14:48 AnMaster: ... idiot 17:14:50 ... 17:14:50 but it works like CAT 17:14:56 he implemented cat in that language 17:15:01 ehird, ah 17:15:02 right 17:15:05 I misread it then 17:15:08 * ehird rolls eyes. 17:15:14 The example in rafb is a oversized version of "cat", just to show all of it's features :) 17:15:16 AnMaster: pretty common esolang terminology 17:15:17 i mean 17:15:21 esolang's features 17:15:25 oklopol: yeah 17:15:27 Something to add? 17:15:35 i knew what a cat program was before knowing the util 17:15:50 And dots rotate when HITTING a wall, of course. 17:15:58 And my language calls bits "dots". Huh, weird. 17:16:08 Though they do look like dots, but that's another problem 17:16:11 asiekierka, I think you need mirrors 17:16:14 rather than walls 17:16:18 \ and / 17:16:21 They're mirrors actually 17:16:25 as well as _ and | 17:16:27 But they move based on the dot 17:16:33 asiekierka, well "90 degrees" hm :/ 17:16:34 Also, it's not meant to be ADVANCED 17:16:44 asiekierka, what if dots collide? 17:17:06 Uh... Well, thanks for telling me that, i think they start moving in a reverse direction 17:17:27 asiekierka, I think 0 and 1 colliding should destroy each other 17:17:34 like the particle and the anti-particle 17:17:36 Right 17:17:46 asiekierka, 1 and 1 or 0 and 0 I'm not sure about 17:18:03 so maybe you want to follow electromagnetic rules? 17:18:12 so 1 and 1 attach to each other creating a wall? 17:18:22 and 0 and 1 reflects 17:18:32 0 and 1 colliding will destroy each other 17:18:33 0 and 0 would also create a wall that way 17:18:36 Yeah 17:18:37 hm ok 17:18:42 but where should it be placed then?> 17:18:46 at the left side 17:18:46 asiekierka, no doesn't work if they destroy each other 17:18:48 the right side 17:18:52 Reflects, as in 17:18:56 asiekierka, or below/above? 17:19:02 they move in reverse directions? 17:19:05 depending on how 17:19:06 hm 17:19:17 asiekierka, no I think the wall should be between those cells :D 17:19:29 But if they collide ,. 17:19:31 and not , . 17:19:53 Because it'll be like: , . | , . OR , . | ,. 17:20:00 So we must handle BOTH exceptions 17:20:18 asiekierka, also those the wall need a charge. So if you have a 2x0 and it it with an 1 you get a 0 particle going in the opposite direction of the 1 17:20:20 :D 17:20:34 say you have: 17:20:43 This is getting... CONFUSING! 17:20:45 -> . . <- 17:20:46 then 17:20:51 -> . . <- 17:20:52 err 17:20:57 Just speed it up 17:20:57 when they hit 17:20:58 shall we? 17:21:03 yes 17:21:04 oklopol: /msg 17:21:04 -> .. <- 17:21:08 -> ** <- 17:21:08 then 17:21:12 Mhm 17:21:12 -> | <- 17:21:13 but 17:21:15 it should 17:21:18 be between 17:21:19 those * 17:21:24 Ok 17:21:32 So if they collide . . it's created inbetween 17:21:35 asiekierka, not in either cell, just between 17:21:42 , , is the same 17:21:48 ,, creates something like "| " 17:21:52 and .. does " |" 17:21:53 asiekierka, no 17:21:54 .. 17:21:55 | is a wall 17:21:55 creates 17:21:57 a wall 17:22:00 between those dots 17:22:01 WHERE? 17:22:03 there's no BETWEEN 17:22:06 these dots 17:22:14 1 char = 1 thing to be in it 17:22:17 asiekierka, you are using integer coordinates? 17:22:18 not 1 char = half a thing to be in it 17:22:26 It all happens on the same ascii map 17:22:27 blergh 17:22:31 So they must move just like in ASCII 17:22:32 :) 17:22:45 ok anyway this made me get an idea for another language 17:22:54 Ok 17:22:56 basically your instruction pointer is a photon 17:22:59 I'm getting my own behavior then 17:23:01 that enters the box 17:23:17 it will bounce on all walls as if they were mirrors 17:23:31 however 17:23:40 the space is filled with some instructions 17:23:52 so each instruction that it illuminates,,, is executed 17:24:12 it will allow non-trivial angles for bouncing 17:24:23 so it needs a proper intersection test 17:24:31 asiekierka, what do you think of this idea? 17:24:44 neat 17:24:50 but i didn't have physics at school YET 17:25:00 nor i wouldn't have for another year 17:25:01 or so 17:25:01 but 17:25:12 http://rafb.net/p/GKrMDk84.html - DOBILA (sorry for the misspell) docs v.2 17:25:17 asiekierka, the input angle to the normal is the same as the output angle, except at the opposite side 17:25:40 like: 17:25:40 \ / 17:25:40 \ / 17:25:40 \/ 17:25:40 ------ 17:25:54 So i added an instruction, EXCEPTIONS and the uncommented example 17:26:05 To see how it'd look like in a normal text file 17:26:13 Oh, and any other chars are ignored, treated like space. 17:26:28 asiekierka, there is an alignment error in your paste 17:26:35 for the uncommented example 17:26:37 W/where? 17:26:40 Oh 17:26:41 i see 17:26:42 thx 17:26:48 Any other fixes? 17:26:49 or ideas? 17:27:00 "$ - Takes up dots. When it gets 8 of dots, it outputs chars based on them, in FIFO." 17:27:08 this implies each $ is separate 17:27:15 have it's own fifo 17:27:22 but then the example isn't cat 17:27:25 Oh 17:27:38 asiekierka, also in the commented example you got a timing issue 17:27:48 the 1 and 0 wouldn't reach their $ at the same time 17:27:55 since the path is longer for 1 17:29:14 The only example i wouldn't "explain", and leave it for the interpreters, is that how _ outputs dots 17:29:18 but 17:29:20 Feel free 17:29:22 oh wait 17:29:23 asiekierka, another idea: have = accelerate the dots to double its current speed if particle enter horizontally, and have it decelerate to half the speed if the dots enter vertically 17:29:23 wrong paste 17:29:36 Also 17:29:40 6 commands is enough 17:29:41 http://rafb.net/p/4h4AbP70.html 17:29:51 asiekierka, how do you do flow control? 17:29:53 How is it NOW 17:30:03 asiekierka, since that is trivially non-turing complete 17:30:08 How to make it TC then 17:30:27 well you need 1) flow control and 2) storage I think 17:30:33 Storage is the dots 17:30:48 asiekierka, how can you store one in a "variable" to retrieve it later? 17:30:49 You store them while they move 17:31:05 I could make a command to retrieve a dot from the FIFO 17:31:18 wouldn't help as the fifo is limited in size 17:31:48 Argh! 17:31:53 asiekierka, anyway all you can do with # is to sort dots. 17:31:59 Well 17:32:00 i have an idea 17:32:53 Argh 17:32:55 asiekierka, ideas that may help: 1) something to flip a 0 to a 1 and vice versa. 2) have some sort of wall that when it is hit from one direction changes the way 0 and 1 reflects (for left/right) 17:32:55 No, it fails 17:32:58 I think those could help 17:33:05 for flow control 17:33:09 1) would be enough i think 17:33:09 not for memory 17:33:22 Since you can flip once 17:33:27 And then flip just at the output time 17:33:44 asiekierka, also for .. note they only destroy each other if traveling in opposite directions 17:33:46 so they collide 17:33:58 or you can't have two directly after each other traveling same way 17:34:03 or one traveling up and the other down 17:34:18 You have infinite space. 17:34:23 asiekierka, yes and? 17:34:26 And i'm removing "_". Its behavior was too confusing. 17:34:32 you could get input really fast 17:34:42 Yes, but it's behavior wasn't defined 17:34:46 So 17:34:51 What command should i remove 17:34:54 from # , . $ " _ 17:34:58 Or none, even 17:35:55 Hm? 17:35:56 Well 17:35:59 # , . can't be removed 17:36:01 asiekierka, anyway you need something so that one 1 or 0 can affect another one, like | if hit from above then it will make everything that hits it horizontally go down, if it is hit from below it will everything that hits it horizontally go up 17:36:04 that could be useful 17:36:08 Uh 17:36:18 to allow a loop that you could retrieve data from 17:37:05 Also, transporters 17:37:10 eh why? 17:37:17 you can have flows that cross 17:37:24 Yes 17:37:27 But it allows you 17:37:28 when hit 17:37:33 to when another dot hits it 17:37:41 to be transported to the other transporter 17:37:49 Otherwise, it's ignored, except if \ hit from south 17:37:51 and / hit from north 17:38:08 well, I leave it up to you to make it TC :) 17:38:10 So you can break loops. 17:38:14 :) 17:38:22 But you can only have 2 transporters 17:38:23 :/ 17:38:23 asiekierka, the | I suggested would be able to create a loop 17:38:58 Ok 17:39:02 I'm at 7 commands now 17:39:06 Not fixing the storage 17:39:09 now* 17:39:18 asiekierka, I think infinite space could work for that 17:39:28 assuming the infinite space wraps around 17:39:48 Ok 17:39:54 wait no 17:39:58 at 7 commands, publishing. 17:40:09 but anyway, you could use a group of walls to create a storage loop for tos 17:40:11 dots* 17:40:15 http://rafb.net/p/MXSZBt60.html 17:40:16 together with | 17:40:17 Here you go 17:40:18 Fixed storage 17:40:22 and i wonder if it's TC now 17:40:26 Oh 17:40:37 When ^ is hit west or east - behavior left! 17:40:45 asiekierka, How would you generate a dot? 17:40:58 as in infinite flow of them 17:41:01 Oh 17:41:06 an infinite flow of dots 17:41:13 I also have an idea how to make ^ more useful 17:41:30 asiekierka, also you removed _ but it is still in the example 17:41:31 hm 17:41:42 oh, wait 17:41:46 i removed _? Sorry 17:41:54 seems you did 17:42:02 I wasn't meant to do that! 17:42:27 asiekierka, anyway two dots that are next to each other shouldn't cause a collision unless their paths are intersecting 17:42:52 asiekierka, as for "The infinite space wraps around." I don't think that actually works 17:43:01 it wouldn't be implementable for dots for a start 17:43:11 http://rafb.net/p/ApA5d942.html 17:43:16 Hm. 17:43:18 v6. 17:43:19 Test THIS 17:43:29 ^ can stop/start the ones/zeros generators 17:43:42 asiekierka, you only need one of ; and : 17:43:42 I'm at 10 commands so far 17:43:45 Oh 17:43:49 since you could use = to convert them 17:43:53 Right 17:44:06 I could also make it a different way 17:44:12 asiekierka, also does = make the dots pass through it ? 17:44:17 It's like 17:44:25 ",= " " =." 17:44:29 right 17:44:34 And north/south works the same 17:44:39 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:44:39 So do south/north and east/westy 17:44:40 hi ais523 17:44:41 ais523, hi 17:44:43 east/west* 17:44:44 hi ais523 17:44:50 We're projecting my esolang idea 17:44:55 http://rafb.net/p/ApA5d942.html - so you can catch on 17:45:15 asiekierka, well I'm far from sure if that is tc or not any longer at least 17:45:21 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:45:31 I bet ais523 could help you better 17:45:39 Ok 17:45:45 lemme just finish up :/; 17:46:40 http://rafb.net/p/RIRUvV41.html 17:46:42 v6.5 17:46:52 what's the question? 17:46:57 Is this language TC 17:47:08 also, in |, i meant Dots, when hitting | north/south, are destroyed. 17:47:10 Right. 17:47:15 Is this language TC 17:47:18 if not, what does it lack 17:47:47 The least point and greatest point as reported by y may also be asynchronously 17:47:47 updated. This may be true even if no threads have been created. If that is the 17:47:47 case, the implementation should offer a command line option for supporting ATHR 17:47:47 (async updates), and a sync update mode (using ATHR results in undefined 17:47:47 behaviour). 17:47:51 ais523, ^ :/ 17:48:02 that is the only way I can resolve that issue in 17:48:49 asiekierka: how do you plan to do infinite storage? 17:48:57 The FIFO. 17:49:03 as far as I can see, the FIFO holds infinite data 17:49:03 Oh wait 17:49:07 but there's no way to find out what it is 17:49:08 yes 17:49:10 apart from telling the user 17:49:23 Oh wait 17:49:24 rright 17:49:28 You're right 17:49:34 you can't output from the FIFO without I/O... yet 17:50:11 everything else worked fine so far, but this is really a blocker for me, how to update bounds for funge space so it works for other stuff. 17:50:14 sigh 17:50:18 ais523, Any great idea? 17:50:34 AnMaster: I'm currently trying to process demands from 5 people at once 17:50:39 and catch up on about 120 emails 17:50:46 async works fine, but will change stuff even if ATHR isn't loaded 17:50:49 and that isn't acceptable 17:51:10 http://rafb.net/p/mQHMAN57.html 17:51:14 v7.42 :) 17:51:41 AnMaster: least and greatest point on y is a very non-Befungy thing for me 17:51:49 to me, Fungespace is conceptually infinite 17:51:57 hm? and? 17:51:57 ais523, yet they are in the core spec, mycology tests it. 17:51:58 and so on 17:52:01 Is the new version good 17:52:09 the fact that practically it's finite and dynamically updated is not really relevant 17:52:21 ais523: Is DOBELA TC now? 17:52:21 ais523: it's so that you can use o to dump the non-empty part of funge-space 17:52:22 even the Funge-98 spec says that space needn't be dynamically updated, although it usually is 17:52:32 Also 17:52:45 in ZERO/ONE dots, i meant rotates instead of moves 17:53:24 asiekierka: my answer now is probably, but I'd have to give it more thought 17:53:31 it seems reasonable that you could use the FIFO as a Minsky machine 17:53:45 and use a different part of your playfield as a finite-state machine to control it 17:53:53 but? 17:53:55 but I'd have to implement it to be sure 17:54:01 Good luck. :P 17:54:07 First, we need an interpreter 17:54:15 But i don't know programming THIS WELL to make one 17:54:15 asiekierka, you code one yes 17:54:29 * asiekierka dies 17:54:44 why? 17:55:02 Newscaster: IMPORTANT NEWS! Asiekierka died from a heart attack after reading that he codes his interpreter, but he doesn't know dynamic programming! Causer yet unknown. 17:55:17 I don't know dynamic variables very well 17:55:22 I need an array of a dynamic size 17:55:26 Deewiant, still I assume you think async updated bounds in y is a bad thing when ATHR isn't loaded? 17:55:36 Each dot holding an X/Y register, and the rotation counter 17:55:40 And move them in this direction 17:55:46 And have an ASCII map 17:55:55 actually it is a bad thing anyway... hm 17:55:56 With the generators, it could possibly PWN your memory. 17:56:02 since it is used for wrapping 17:56:03 Since you could just put an : 17:56:05 and PWNED. 17:56:19 So no, i don't know how to make one 17:56:22 So, no 17:56:22 AnMaster: well, yeah, of course. Something giving wrong results unpredictably is generally not a good thing :-P 17:56:39 Deewiant, apart from bounds everything worked well so far 17:56:49 * AnMaster needs to consider bounds some more 17:56:53 AnMaster: so you've been lucky :-P 17:56:57 So, anyone willing? 17:57:09 unless you can prove it never happens, your program is incorrect 17:57:14 Deewiant, well pretty well, usual amount of typo bugs and such of course. 17:57:22 anyway I could make it sync and slower 17:58:02 asiekierka, you code it 17:58:04 http://rafb.net/p/lVf6BV28.html 17:58:05 I said already 17:58:09 But i don't know HOW to code it 17:58:10 :/ 17:58:16 asiekierka, SOL then 17:58:20 SOL? 17:58:26 S*** out of luck 17:59:09 asiekierka, and you want either a hash array or a tree structure 17:59:09 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:59:48 and of course : could fill memory 18:00:23 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:00:28 Deewiant, some sort of compare and exchange would work for bounds, except that is non-trivial in erlang 18:00:34 asiekierka: asiekierka, and you want either a hash array or a tree structure and of course : could fill memory 18:00:40 : filling memory is a user fault 18:00:58 You'd want some way to discard bits if you don't already have it 18:01:00 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/DOBELA - Working on the Wiki thread 18:01:06 I do 18:01:10 sending them to v 18:01:19 asiekierka, and you want to rate limit : to every other cell 18:01:32 asiekierka, what if you want to destroy without outputting to fifo? 18:01:41 from* 18:01:46 Ahem 18:01:46 ah wait 18:01:48 v: When hit south, destroys the dot. 18:01:53 right 18:02:03 :) 18:02:36 Deewiant, ais523: Another idea I had for another fingerprint: Fungespace Query Language 18:02:41 So? 18:03:40 "(& (> $1 2) (< $1 5) (| (> $2 5) (< $2 3)))" Using $1 and $2 instead of x/y for reasons for n-funge for n > 3 18:04:02 also the value v would mean "value of cell is" 18:04:11 like (= v 4) 18:04:43 return a list of (top of stack first) Count,X,Y,...,Value,X,Y,...,Value 18:04:51 where ... are any more dimensions needed 18:04:54 wait 18:04:55 wrong 18:05:07 Count,...Y,X,Value,...Y,X,Value 18:07:35 Hm, I wonder how insanely slow using a full blown database for fungespace would be 18:09:09 What are the categories DOBELA could be assigned to? 18:09:15 oh wait 18:09:16 i found a list 18:10:27 Stack-based, Unknown computational class, Two-dimensional languages, Unimplemented... 18:10:29 Anything else? 18:10:38 stack-based? 18:10:45 Or queue-based? 18:10:48 not sure about that 18:10:48 I'm not sure 18:11:13 ok 18:11:14 oh 18:11:15 yes 18:11:32 Queue-based, Unknown computational class, Two-dimensional languages, Unimplemented 18:11:33 Anything else 18:11:45 it's queue-based and 2D 18:11:48 also, year 18:11:49 isn't it a cell automaton? 18:11:50 2008, presumably 18:11:52 2008 18:11:55 AnMaster: not quite 18:11:58 bully-a-lot-one 18:12:00 though 18:12:05 It doesn't need th ecells to be shown 18:12:10 the cells* 18:12:13 But you can, though 18:12:17 asiekierka, nor does RUBE does it? 18:12:23 AnMaster: cellular automata don't have FIFOs 18:12:25 yeah 18:12:29 ais523, ah right 18:12:31 but ais523 has a good point 18:12:44 Also 18:12:49 It's just a language, right? 18:13:01 yes, Category:Languages 18:13:05 And category:2008 18:13:18 Since i made it... uh... today, right? 18:13:54 I think i should make a hello world, but it's... Too easy! 18:14:01 Oh wait 18:14:04 i didn't define a thing 18:14:08 The default direction of the dots! 18:14:10 Oops. 18:14:15 ais523, I had an idea for another language, it could be 2D or 3D and would use a particle, say a photon or something else, that bounced on the perfect mirror walls, and either you would need to trace it's path, seeing what instructions in the room it intersected with to find out what instructions were executed 18:14:17 By default, they move... east, or south? 18:14:19 Let's debate! 18:14:25 ais523, flow control by flippable mirrors 18:14:31 AnMaster: seen BackFlip? 18:14:41 ais523, it will allow non-trivial paths 18:14:49 asiekierka: north-northeast! 18:14:50 ah, ok 18:15:00 ais523, also you would have to consider refraction index of the materials 18:15:03 I only have N/S/E/W 18:15:06 ais523, and so on 18:15:10 Also, as generators make dots that move east 18:15:16 asiekierka: West! 18:15:19 ais523, however the photon wouldn't be absorbed 18:15:19 East! 18:15:24 It'll fit to the generators! 18:15:28 And for Hello World to work 18:15:31 i could just make 18:15:32 West! So it doesn't fit! 18:15:36 East! 18:15:40 Bah! 18:15:44 Because it's meand to be useful, actually 18:15:49 And hello world would be: 18:15:52 (put an array of dots here) $ 18:15:54 And that's all! 18:16:00 ais523, what do you think of this idea? 18:16:02 That's how you make a Hello, World in my language 18:16:18 AnMaster: relatively interesting 18:16:24 I'm kind of distracted atm, though 18:16:26 if it's west 18:16:27 ais523, it could also be made to have several photons, and have lamps and such 18:16:31 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523|busy. 18:16:33 ais523, and it could be 3D :D 18:16:34 then $ (stringofdots here) 18:16:35 oh well 18:16:58 however asiekierka didn't seem to find it interesting at all, which is odd 18:18:00 Since i don't know physics 18:18:05 so i didn't quite understand 18:18:12 ais523|busy, further I think instructions should be possible to place at non-integer coordinates, same for walls, flippable mirrors and such 18:18:29 AnMaster: have you seen Gravity? 18:18:44 ais523|busy, yes, but that uses different parts of physics 18:18:50 I'm unsure how to actually handle the infinite memory 18:18:51 :/ 18:19:18 ais523|busy, since I want this photon language to be TC 18:21:02 ais523|busy, I think declaring everything as some sort of list of tuples, or maybe in S-Expressions are the only sane way 18:21:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:21:06 for file format 18:22:27 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/DOBELA 18:22:29 (additem-simple Type X Y Z) 18:22:34 Here you go, a DOBELA esolang wiki 18:22:37 wiki enty 18:22:39 entry* 18:22:43 Now to add categories 18:22:52 (additem-direction Type X Y Z DirX DirY DirZ) 18:23:14 (additem-volume Type minX minY minZ maxX maxY maxZ) 18:23:21 ais523|busy, maybe something like that? 18:23:28 and possible extra parameters in some other way 18:23:31 like colour of lamps 18:23:33 oh well 18:24:21 probably just specific (lamp '(x y z) '(x y z) '(r b g) intensity) 18:24:23 or such 18:24:32 probably in photons per second or such 18:24:38 Also, my esolang is text-based, right 18:24:45 or is it pattern-based 18:24:58 nope 18:25:00 text-based 18:25:03 asiekierka, patterns would be like regex ones I suspect 18:25:05 Also 18:25:09 what's my language's level 18:25:11 is it low-level 18:25:13 or high-leel 18:25:15 level* 18:25:34 asiekierka: computation cannot add new dots 18:25:49 oops yeah an issue 18:25:53 you will just have the dots you had initially, or less. 18:26:00 You can generate dotas 18:26:01 dots* 18:26:03 you need to add some breeding rules 18:26:03 oklopol, what about the : ? 18:26:04 you can? 18:26:06 and switch whether you do it and you don't 18:26:07 i may have missed it 18:26:14 : - Generates ones east by default. 18:26:15 ah 18:26:18 And you can also use = or switch whenever it's zero or one 18:26:19 i did miss that 18:26:21 :) 18:26:22 what does that mean? 18:26:29 oklopol, generate one dots to the east 18:26:29 It generates ones east 18:26:30 I think 18:26:32 so first it's : 18:26:39 then :. 18:26:40 then :... 18:26:42 wait 18:26:43 :.. 18:26:46 asiekierka, that doesn't work 18:26:51 then :... then :.... then :..... 18:26:54 until it's terminated 18:26:55 :) 18:26:55 I said it should have a rate of every other turn 18:27:00 ok 18:27:05 okay, second issue 18:27:09 asiekierka, since .. is defined as # 18:27:09 so 18:27:09 :P 18:27:11 this whole things is fully static 18:27:17 i cannot see any computation 18:27:21 there's no interaction 18:27:24 :. then : . then :. . then : . . then :. . . 18:27:28 there's no changing the environment 18:27:33 But when they collide 18:27:34 as in 18:27:36 oklopol, ais523 suggested it may be possible to simulate minsky in it 18:27:39 there's just a few dots going in circles 18:27:41 ->. .<- 18:27:45 and ->..<- 18:27:46 oklopol, there is | too 18:27:47 Not when 18:27:49 .. 18:27:55 when the first one is moving up 18:27:57 and the second down 18:28:00 when they COLLIDE 18:28:01 :P 18:28:13 right you fixed that then ais523|busy 18:28:13 I think that may mean it is self-modifying 18:28:14 :P 18:28:14 err 18:28:14 if it isn't TC, it's due to lack of working flow control 18:28:15 asiekierka, ^ 18:28:35 anyway 18:28:38 so, what should i do now 18:28:48 ais523|busy, If I make Photon I need your help I bet working out what is needed 18:28:54 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:29:10 oh 18:29:27 | has a state which can be changed by hitting it from a certain direction? 18:29:32 oklopol, yep 18:29:35 ah 18:29:38 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/DOBELA 18:29:40 Fixed! 18:29:41 well *that's* computation 18:29:44 oklopol, I suggested that one as a way to be able to redirect 18:29:55 So 18:30:01 Is it TC, is it not TC... I wonder. 18:30:41 asiekierka, 1) implement a interpreter for it 2) implement a TC complete language in it 18:30:42 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:30:43 err 18:30:47 TC language* 18:31:24 oklopol, anyway what did you think of my Photon language? 18:31:33 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:31:34 Boo! 18:31:37 What did i miss 18:31:38 asiekierka, 1) implement a interpreter for it 2) implement a TC complete language in it 18:31:46 * asiekierka died. TWICE 18:31:46 err 18:31:46 TC language* 18:31:56 asiekierka, well that is your own problem 18:32:05 you can't expect someone else to do it for you 18:32:05 * asiekierka died. THE FOURTH TIME TOTAL 18:32:14 I know a person that can do 1) 18:32:15 :) 18:32:21 well not me 18:32:27 I have other things to do 18:32:31 But i'll need to wait to thursday 18:32:33 or friday 18:32:37 like befunge and this Photon language idea I had 18:32:37 Or someone may want to do it 18:33:35 asiekierka: are you unable to code? 18:33:48 i am able 18:33:55 i just don't know enough programming to do it 18:34:39 So, you are unable to code. 18:36:08 and? 18:38:54 hello? 18:39:37 -!- asiekierka has quit. 18:40:12 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:41:32 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:42:17 ehird, how would you represent the angle of an object in a 3D space. Say a lamp with a position (x, y, z) but what should be used for the angle it is pointing towards? 18:42:35 Uh. A number? 18:42:44 In degrees or radians or something. 18:42:53 well, relative what? 18:43:00 what 18:43:03 polar coordinates or something sounds familiar 18:43:06 use a unit vecotr 18:43:08 *vector 18:43:32 oklopol, oh? I'm sorry but my 3D maths are kind of rusty (ie, never existed) :( 18:43:50 a vector that points to where ever the object is headed 18:43:54 ah 18:43:54 and is 1 long 18:43:57 right makes sense 18:43:59 good idea 18:44:16 oklopol, would that be same as normalised vector? 18:44:20 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:44:31 just trying to refresh memory there, since that sounds familiar 18:45:09 yes, normalized 18:45:19 err yeah normalized 18:45:24 with z or s ;P 18:45:28 normalization is just making the length 1 18:45:53 in any-dimensional vectors 18:47:18 for rate of lamps that emit single photons and have a perfect exit direction (no spread) 18:47:21 -- Parameters Coordinates, Direction, Wavelength, nanoseconds between each photon 18:47:21 (lamp '(x y z) '(x y z) wavelength time) 18:47:23 would that be sane? 18:47:41 AnMaster: um, make your parameters self-describing 18:47:52 coords direction wave-length (not sure for the last one) 18:47:55 ehird, that was just an example, would have numbers there 18:48:02 what language 18:48:16 ehird, file format for Photon 18:48:23 that I described above 18:48:30 it is either that or some sort of tuples 18:49:02 numbers are either integers or double (at least) 18:49:20 ehird, so either scheme-ish S-Expressions 18:49:32 or tuples of some type 18:49:55 ehird, you add objects, flow control by mirrors that flip when photons hit them 18:50:01 and so on 18:50:21 refraction index should be correctly handled for objects too 18:50:40 ehird, I think this language could be fairly interesting, and ais523|busy said as much above 18:50:41 :D 18:52:20 can you go over the elements that do the actual computation? 18:52:26 something about flippable mirrors 18:52:36 i think i heard something like that 18:52:44 oklopol, well flipped by photons 18:52:58 oklopol, and yes I plan to break the laws of physics if I have to to make it tc 18:53:02 because the plan is to make it tc 18:53:07 far from all the details are worked out 18:53:10 a photon hits a certain kind of mirror, and it will rotate? 18:53:13 AnMaster: Gravity is uncomputable 18:53:16 oklopol, yes 18:53:32 ais523|busy, well I think this one should be computable if you do ray-tracing 18:53:34 okay, that sounds like computation, but it also sounds unprogrammable 18:53:48 oklopol, hard to program yes 18:53:49 is there gravity? 18:53:59 oklopol, you mean to act on photons? 18:54:03 My plan was: no 18:54:31 thought so 18:54:33 since that would make it a LOT harder to implement, if not even unimplementable 18:54:45 yes not to mention it would be pointless 18:54:55 oklopol, why? 18:55:07 gravity should act on the objects but not the photons ;-P 18:55:12 :D 18:55:20 ais523|busy, anyway I plan to make it tc and possible to implement, even if messily hard to program in and messily hard to implement 18:55:26 AnMaster: no real reason, just my gut talking 18:55:26 ah, ok 18:55:31 the photons will catch up until the program's been running so long they're moving at light speed 18:55:39 Deewiant, haha 18:55:47 "The photons travel at the speed of light (for the given material). Since this 18:55:47 is too fast to be able to simulate in real time for current computers running 18:55:47 the simulation at a slower speed is allowed." 18:55:52 from the draft I'm *trying to write* 18:56:01 I wonder if it will be easier or harder to implement than Feather 18:56:35 anyway, I think I've figured out how to prevent Feather going into an infinite loop (as opposed to arbitrary loop) when it parses the parser with itself 18:56:55 make the parser property of an object be the parser it was parsed with 18:56:56 arbitrary loop? 18:57:00 so ^parser is the parser 18:57:04 Deewiant: it's a Feather thing 18:57:11 ais523|busy: uh, just make it parse the parser with the previous parser 18:57:15 basically, it's a loop that runs a finite number of times 18:57:16 then parse the parser with the current parser 18:57:20 until oldparser == newparser 18:57:27 (i.e. reparse until the parsing stabalizes) 18:57:29 anyway, lamps (single photons at a given rate, with possibly a max count), surfaces (perfect mirrors or perfect absorbers), flippable mirrors, and volumes (transparent, with a given refraction index) 18:57:30 but you can retroactively change how many times it ran 18:57:32 what else do I need? 18:57:51 thus it's effectively an infinite loop that runs in finite time, if you ever find that it didn't run far enough you change your mind about how far it ran 18:58:00 ehird: oldparser will never == newparser, probably 18:58:28 ais523|busy: i doubt it 18:58:32 ais523|busy: if you just add some new syntax, but don't use it in the parser, then it'll work immediately 18:58:44 if you make it parse a certain construct differently 18:58:49 but include a backwards compatibility clause 18:58:52 it'll immediately stabalize 18:58:56 then remove the backwards-compat clause 18:59:00 and since its running on the new parser, it'll work. 18:59:51 ehird: how do you compare functions for equality, again? 19:00:03 uh, you don't 19:00:06 you compare the parsetree. 19:00:12 ehird: there is no parsetree 19:00:22 "parser"'s a bit of a misnomer 19:00:28 it's a function which maps strings to functions 19:00:33 sort of like eval 19:00:39 ais523|busy: well, just do a dumb compare then 19:00:41 for exact equality 19:00:50 it would always fail 19:01:13 ais523|busy: nope 19:01:15 think about it 19:01:19 i want to add a mega super syntax to the parser 19:01:20 now 19:01:25 i add it, but i also use it in the parser at the same time 19:01:26 BUT 19:01:35 i write the expanded form in a guard checkign for the old parser version 19:01:45 so it runs, uses the expanded form, runs it again, oh, now it uses the non-expanded shortcut 19:01:50 and then next time its stable 19:01:54 so then you can remove the backwards-compat guard 19:01:56 reparse 19:01:59 and it'll work immediately 19:02:01 voila 19:02:39 #feather is taken, i see 19:02:59 yes 19:03:08 #feather-lang is the appropriate channel 19:03:19 ah¨ 19:03:29 i've been there occasionally 19:03:59 ais523|busy, Deewiant, oklopol: http://rafb.net/p/jap3S630.html 19:04:09 comments and suggestions please 19:04:14 same goes for anyone else 19:04:51 I probably want some form of stdout too, but possibly no stdin 19:05:49 ehird, you too please 19:05:57 -!- omniscient_idiot has joined. 19:06:17 AnMaster: Make the format something like this: 19:06:56 [ lamp location: (X,Y,Z) direction: (X,Y,Z) wavelength: Foo time: Foo count: Foo ] 19:06:57 or similar 19:06:58 (also there shouldn't be a , after time in the s-expression example, that was a typo 19:07:09 ehird: Smalltalk? 19:07:12 ehird, that is hard to parse, ideally I want something prefix based 19:07:13 you could do it in prolog too 19:07:15 like scheme 19:07:25 lamp(vector(X,Y,Z),direction(X,Y,Z),Foo,Foo,Foo) 19:07:25 ais523|busy: Kind of a blend of lisp/smalltalk/n3/prolog. 19:07:27 THERE IS A THING CALLED LAMP 19:07:32 IT HAS THIS THING CALLED LOCATION 19:07:32 AnMaster: That is not hard to parse. 19:07:38 WHICH IS AS FOLLOWS: (x, y, z) 19:07:39 first node is the type of thing 19:07:40 I HAZ A LAMP 19:07:42 the rest of KEY: VALUE 19:07:44 simple. 19:07:46 ais523|busy, :( 19:07:52 it's just s-expressions with labels. 19:08:01 ehird, hm 19:08:07 ehird, so lets make that proper 19:08:17 ehird: Prolog is sexp too, but it uses comma not space and the first element is outside the parens 19:08:21 heh, was scared for a sec there 19:08:26 ? 19:08:29 thought it was asiekierka suggesting the prolog 19:08:34 ehird: Prolog is based on Lisp 19:08:42 although control flow is very different 19:08:43 ais523|busy: Hi. I know prolog. 19:08:45 Thanks. 19:08:56 ah, I misinterpreted what the ? was about 19:09:04 ehird, so lets make that proper 19:09:07 ehird, (lamp (list (list location (list X Y Z)) 19:09:08 and so on 19:09:08 lets go pen 19:09:12 what about that? 19:09:18 AnMaster: no, because that is pig ugly and pointless 19:09:20 yes that isn't finished 19:09:28 ehird, so is your format IMO :) 19:09:34 [ : : ] 19:09:39 Simple. Readable. Easily indentable 19:09:57 well 19:09:59 [ lamp 19:09:59 direction: (X,Y,Z) 19:10:00 foo: blah 19:10:00 etc: baz ] 19:10:01 I'll leave format till later 19:10:03 ok? 19:10:08 lets get on with the rest 19:10:13 Do I have to? 19:10:48 ehird, you could just shut up instead? 19:10:56 Charming. 19:10:57 or you could contribute to the language 19:11:09 Or I could talk about things unrelated to that language in #esoteric. 19:11:09 or you could just ignore me I guess and go on talking format 19:11:18 anyway 19:11:27 what other objects are needed to make it tc 19:11:27 Well, if I wanted to help you with your language before I certainly don't know. 19:11:32 how to create storage? 19:11:52 ehird, well as I said, lets just leave format till later? ok? 19:12:28 You're implying that I want an indepth discussion about it as opposed to merely glancing at it and having one opinion. 19:12:31 I have no intention to offend you, nor anyone else. 19:12:51 nor have I had that before 19:13:02 What are you even talking about? 19:13:25 ehird, you seemed offended at that I wanted to leave file format for later? 19:13:31 sorry if I misunderstood that 19:16:40 * ais523|busy wonders about what punctuation and capitalisation for hello world programs is most important 19:16:49 the original, in K&R, was "hello world" 19:16:53 but that doesn't seem very popular 19:16:54 Hello, world!\n 19:17:05 yes, that's the one I see most often 19:17:12 "Hello World" also seems to be popular 19:17:14 grammatically correct, elegant, etc 19:17:15 that is the standard one 19:17:20 and "Hello World!" is the other one I see from time to time 19:17:24 ehird, the , there seems odd to me 19:17:30 at least to me 19:17:33 "Hello, World!" is my favourite 19:17:35 AnMaster: no, it's valid 19:17:38 ehird, oh? 19:17:46 well what does it mean exactly there 19:17:51 AnMaster: when talking to someone, often you put their name at the end of the sentence, with a comma 19:17:52 Hello, world. 19:17:53 :-P 19:17:57 so on IRC, I would say 19:18:00 ehird: are you listening? 19:18:07 err yeah that uses : 19:18:09 ;P 19:18:09 if I met ehird in RL, the English equivalent would be 19:18:14 are you listening, ehird? 19:18:16 ah right 19:18:17 true 19:18:28 no 19:18:31 ais523|busy, you could start with the name too in English, couldn't you? 19:18:32 ais523|busy: Addressing me as ehird IRL would be a bit weird. 19:18:34 Especially as it's not easy to pronounce. 19:18:36 :-P 19:19:14 it is for me 19:19:21 * AnMaster considers. 19:19:26 it's shorter than your real name, anyway 19:19:28 Possible yes, not that easy though 19:19:58 ais523|busy: "Elliott" is quicker to say than "ehird", actually. 19:19:59 ais523|busy, xwrt is even shorter, is it easier? 19:20:14 true no vowels 19:20:39 ehird: ehird is just pronounced as "e heard", or that's how I pronounce it mentally 19:20:42 pretty easy to say 19:20:42 rwyt maybe? 19:21:03 maybe I've got good at it from thinking it so often 19:21:07 ais523|busy, saying a lone "e" isn't all that easy 19:21:25 ais523|busy: i generally don't think your name as it takes ages to pronounce 19:21:25 yes it is 19:21:32 ais523|busy, not in front of h 19:21:35 heh, I think it even though it takes ages to pronounce 19:21:37 IRL I'd probably word sentences to avoid mentioning a name at all. 19:21:50 "that one" 19:21:58 ^^ POLITICALLY RELEVANT JOKE ^^ 19:22:08 heh, ais523 takes even longer to pronounce then AnMaster 19:22:11 if you spell it out, like I do 19:22:22 ais523|busy, my nick isn't meant to pronounce 19:22:23 oh well 19:22:29 well, nicks aren't, generally 19:22:31 mine definitely isn't 19:22:38 i'm called oklopol irl too 19:22:41 or just oklo 19:22:42 but I've grown to like it for all sorts of purposes 19:22:48 oklopol: are you called oklofok and oklocod too? 19:22:48 * AnMaster is now known as XMwPEhuSSj 19:22:49 Whatever do you mean, ay eye ess five two three pipe busy? 19:22:51 also with my irl name of course 19:22:57 and also occasionally veli lasol 19:23:02 ais523|busy, XMwPEhuSSj 19:23:04 try that one 19:23:07 oklopol: how do you pronounce oklopol, "ock lo pohl"? 19:23:11 (from rng) 19:23:17 (prng rather) 19:23:18 AnMaster: I think it's faster to pronounce than ais523, but harder 19:23:27 ehird: yes 19:23:32 ais523|busy, I think it is impossible 19:23:34 it is for me at least 19:23:39 ehird: I pronounce it like that but with a short o at the end 19:23:40 AnMaster: not hard 19:23:41 finnish is pronounced as it's written, characters are pronounced as in lojban 19:23:44 ais523|busy: yes 19:23:45 ehird, huh? 19:23:45 not poll 19:23:46 pohl 19:23:51 except for yäö 19:23:57 oklôpol, where the accent indicates a long vowel 19:24:11 ah well "poll" is how it's pronounced 19:24:19 oklopol: depends how you pronounce poll 19:24:23 oklopol: just record the pronounciation 19:24:24 :-P 19:24:24 except the "p" is not aspirated 19:24:36 what is an aspirated p? 19:24:42 I could pronounce oklopol easily 19:24:42 you can aspirate vowels, but consonants? 19:24:50 you have an "h" after it 19:24:59 oklopholl? 19:24:59 oklopol, your nick? No 19:25:03 "b" is a non-aspirated, voiced "p", in english 19:25:11 ah, ok 19:25:17 oklopol: record a pronounciation 19:25:18 :p 19:25:20 so it's a case of consonants differing slightly between languages 19:25:24 oklopol, it is *easy* to pronounce "oklopol" in Swedish 19:25:30 probably not what you want though 19:25:39 AnMaster: yes, but you may pronounce it wrong, as "o" can also be "u" 19:25:51 oklopol, ah I wouldn't do it like that 19:25:56 ehird, I agree 19:25:58 that is a good idea 19:25:58 yeah then it's probably correct 19:26:22 "oklo-pol" basically 19:28:58 ais523|busy: also the emphasis is on OKlopol 19:29:03 * ais523|busy tries to think up other ways to pronounce oklopol 19:29:10 "oklopple" would be one 19:29:39 -!- Corun has joined. 19:31:08 -!- ais523|busy has changed nick to ais523. 19:31:40 -!- asiekierka has joined. 19:31:42 AAUUGH 19:31:44 my net crashed 19:31:46 for 2 hours 19:31:47 Ok 19:31:50 So, how's DOBELA, my esolang 19:31:54 What did i miss 19:32:35 an argument about how to pronounce "oklopol" 19:32:41 ok 19:32:42 Also 19:32:46 and AnMaster starting off a new lang 19:32:46 i'm going for 10-15 mins 19:32:54 Can anyone please think whether DOBELA is TC 19:32:57 what it lacks 19:32:58 for TC 19:33:00 etc 19:33:00 etc 19:33:02 Give me tips 19:33:19 ais523, I'm preparing another draft 19:33:22 next one I mean 19:33:51 ais523, what do you call a cube based on a non-square rectangle in English? 19:33:58 I don't remember English word 19:34:04 "rätblock" in Swedish 19:34:11 not all sides need to be the same 19:34:17 but opposite ones need to me 19:34:17 be* 19:34:31 AnMaster: cuboid 19:34:34 ah thanks 19:34:42 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 19:34:43 if you mean a shape made from 6 rectangles 19:34:44 Also called "rectangular prism". 19:34:47 ais523, yep 19:34:52 and all corners as in a cube 19:34:59 so no tilting 19:35:12 yes 19:35:22 if you have 6 parallelograms, so it's tilted, you get a parallelepiped 19:35:30 which isn't a very commonly used word, but it's great fun to say 19:36:39 hehe 19:36:52 ais523, should I give refraction index or speed of light? 19:36:56 for materials 19:37:06 probably refraction index 19:37:10 Heh: "As of 2005, no example of a perfect cuboid had been found and no one had proven that it cannot exist. Exhaustive computer searches have proven that the smallest edge of the perfect box is at least 4.3 billion." 19:37:39 There certainly seem to be a lot of things that are not yet known. Those mathematicians ought to start getting things done. 19:37:49 -!- Corun has joined. 19:37:54 fizzie, huh? 19:38:05 what is a perfect cuboid? 19:38:08 yeah, they should get around to finding those odd perfect numbers too 19:38:14 A perfect cuboid is one where the edges, face dianogals and the space diagonal are all integers. 19:38:21 ah... 19:38:28 http://filebin.ca/fkwcwc/eclipple.mp3 A 3 in one deal. Correct followed by incorrect pronounciations of "oklopol" and "ehird", followed by the incorruptable "ais523". 19:38:31 oklopol: is my pronouncuation of oklopol right 19:38:53 ais523, oh? I plan to make sure that it calculates for the different refraction you get depending the wavelength of the photon 19:39:22 eclipple? 19:39:39 ehird, ? 19:40:00 AnMaster: my intentionally-bad pronounciation of oklopol 19:40:30 ehird: are you female, or are my headphones broken? 19:40:35 http://rafb.net/p/cZIzpE66.html 19:40:43 ais523: i'm a 13-year-old with an abnormally high voice. 19:40:49 "If it looks like a girl, sounds like a girl, ..." 19:40:49 ah, ok 19:40:53 your headphones may or may not be broken. 19:41:01 ehird: the first one is about right 19:41:06 oklopol, huh 19:41:08 really? 19:41:08 And quacks like a duck. (Disclaimer: didn't listen to it yet.) 19:41:10 oklopol: 'about' right? :-P 19:41:22 * AnMaster is going to record too now 19:41:34 he said the middle o was a long vowel, IIRC 19:41:51 i said? 19:42:08 ok, someone else said :) 19:42:11 why would a short o be long? 19:42:13 Okloooooppol. 19:42:15 this is finnish 19:42:24 ehird: your last l 19:42:26 is an english l 19:42:33 and his k is aspirated 19:42:35 it's how a finnish child would say oklopol 19:42:40 so I have a raw file here 19:42:43 i am a finnish child! 19:42:43 hmm 19:42:46 yeah i guess 19:42:49 ~/tmp/oklopol.raw: RIFF (little-endian) data, WAVE audio, Microsoft PCM, 8 bit, mono 8000 Hz 19:42:52 fizzie: You said something about quacking? http://filebin.ca/tkdpj/quack.mp3 19:42:55 do you think you can play that? 19:42:57 was just arecord 19:42:59 sounds like "okhlopoll" or something 19:43:02 yeah 19:43:06 AnMaster: You could just use lame(1) to give an mp3, you know. 19:43:07 didn't notice it because of the l 19:43:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:43:39 AnMaster: i'm pretty sure i can 19:44:12 -!- olsner has joined. 19:44:23 fizzie: Though that quack isn't very...quacky. 19:44:39 ehird, gives me noise hm 19:44:47 AnMaster: Make a wav first, then. 19:44:52 Wait, no. 19:44:56 well can't figure out 19:44:56 lame has an option for raw input 19:45:04 * ehird looks up 19:45:07 AnMaster: -r 19:45:12 ehird, it isn't raw I think 19:45:13 hm 19:45:17 [[Sampling rate and 19:45:17 mono/stereo/jstereo must be specified on the command line.]] 19:45:34 jstereo? 19:45:43 Deewiant: "joint stereo". 19:45:43 Deewiant: joint stereo 19:45:47 the newer versiony thing of stereo 19:45:48 what's that 19:45:49 ehird, ah oggenc worked 19:45:52 http://omploader.org/vdXZj 19:45:54 ogg file 19:45:59 oklopol, is that correct? 19:46:00 AnMaster: ok. lame -r -s 8 -m j foo.raw foo.mp3 for further reference 19:46:15 ehird, noise too, that was one I tested 19:46:24 AnMaster: your voice is weird 19:46:30 ehird, very bad headset 19:46:42 so bad quality of recording too 19:46:48 ehird, also I got a cold 19:46:53 so yeah my voice is odd 19:46:54 AnMaster: that page crashed my firefox 19:46:56 Deewiant: It's cheating. :p (For the high frequency part, there's no real stereo, just a single channel + panning.) 19:47:03 Deewiant, not my problem 19:47:13 fizzie: iirc, it actually produces better quality 19:47:18 and smaller filesizes 19:47:26 Better quality for the same bitrate, maybe. 19:47:40 AnMaster: Um, says the person who was astonished that I wasn't going to make my site work in IE.. 19:47:44 ahh, AnMaster sounds so swedish :-D 19:47:58 Deewiant, well it doesn't crash my firefox 2 19:48:00 AnMaster: stress on the first syllable 19:48:03 so no clue why it crashes your 19:48:08 Deewiant, heh? 19:48:16 this is 3.0.3 19:48:22 Deewiant, for me firefox 2 opens a download dialog 19:48:24 that's all 19:48:25 AnMaster: you need to stress the first syllable 19:48:38 Deewiant, and what do I stress now? 19:48:42 AnMaster: the middle one 19:49:03 well if I stress the first one, it would sound English 19:49:06 and then your o's just sound all swedish but I guess that can't be helped :-P 19:49:17 AnMaster: in finnish, all words have the stress on the first syllable 19:49:22 Deewiant, and I could say it in English I guess 19:50:08 AnMaster: in english the vowels would be completely wrong 19:50:14 Deewiant, http://omploader.org/vdXZk <-- in English 19:50:30 seems i can't open those 19:50:32 * AnMaster wonders if ehird thinks that sound less strange 19:50:35 but i trust Deewiant 19:50:37 oklopol, normal *.ogg 19:50:43 so wget 19:50:47 ok 19:50:47 rename to whatever.ogg 19:50:47 AnMaster: oklopol uses windows. 19:50:48 back 19:50:55 AnMaster: better 19:50:58 ehird, well I guess he could save it to disk 19:51:02 Deewiant, that was English o 19:51:04 too 19:51:06 AnMaster: And then how do you propose he opens it? 19:51:12 AnMaster: yeah, englishy o's, I was going to say that next 19:51:15 ehird, there is vlc or mplayer iirc 19:51:18 both for windows 19:51:21 and other tools too 19:51:22 vlc should be able to play it 19:51:28 but it just doesn't work. 19:51:33 oklopol, odd 19:51:37 oklopol: the sound is really quiet 19:51:41 you might just not hear it 19:51:45 replay gain put +16 decibels 19:51:45 hm 19:51:55 Deewiant, really? sounded fine here 19:51:58 I used media player classic, that seemed to work. 19:52:00 I have a SB Live 5.1 19:52:07 but the head set really sucks 19:52:10 How's DOBELA? And how do YOU spell DOBELA 19:52:17 i spell it "do-BEE-la" 19:52:26 AnMaster: like said, replay gain put +16 decibels, and that's just analysing the sound 19:52:34 asiekierka: I spell it DOBELA 19:52:35 how do YOU spell it 19:52:37 Deewiant, "noise"? 19:52:47 Deewiant: uh... how? 19:52:53 asiekierka: he spells it DOBELA 19:52:56 asiekierka: you probably meant something other than 'spell' 19:52:59 oh 19:53:00 AnMaster: ? 19:53:00 right 19:53:01 pronounce 19:53:02 Deewiant, anyway, I can replay it just fine at a moderate volume in my headset 19:53:02 :/ 19:53:04 Augh 19:53:07 okay opened in audacity 19:53:11 Yes 19:53:16 How do you PRONOUNCE DOBELA 19:53:20 It is very quiet, yes. If you open it in audacity, the amplitude peaks go to something like 0.07, in the range [-1, 1]. 19:53:20 i pronounce it "do-BEE-la" 19:53:23 just skip the aspiration and that's fine 19:53:43 Hm? 19:53:47 How do you pronounce DOBELA 19:53:49 fizzie well... No clue about that 19:53:56 asiekierka: doo-bee-lah 19:53:58 My voice is very high: http://filebin.ca/rbccv/aaaaaa.mp3 19:53:59 asiekierka, I don't, since I'm working on Photon 19:54:15 ehird, "high volume" or "high pitch", or both? 19:54:21 AnMaster: pitch 19:54:25 asiekierka: do-be-la where "be" is not pronounced like the english "be" 19:54:26 oklopol: Just like me, but proper-englishfied, and i focus on "BEE" 19:54:29 high volume=loud 19:54:31 oh 19:54:40 ehird: that was awesome :) 19:54:42 i pronounce it like "be" is pronounced like "bee" 19:54:44 ehird, I got a very low pitched voice 19:54:49 asiekierka: "be" as in "bet" here 19:54:49 can get down a long way 19:54:52 but not up much 19:54:57 oklopol: :D 19:55:06 Hm, Deewiant, that's also right 19:55:11 ehird, I think near low C iirc. 19:55:21 all i know is that my throat hurts now 19:55:21 but that was a few years ago, I almost reached it 19:55:45 ehird, was that from encyclopedia btw? 19:55:46 err 19:55:52 uncyclopedia 19:55:58 AnMaster: no... i made it 19:56:00 * AnMaster kicks aspell where it hurts 19:56:02 with a microphone and audacity 19:56:04 ehird, I mean those "A" 19:56:06 duh 19:56:07 and my voice. 19:56:09 Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! 19:56:13 AnMaster: no, that's because that's what i said 19:56:19 i said "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" 19:56:31 err wasn't it more like aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa? 19:56:49 ehird, ah I thought you used uncyclopedia as a script for that performance ;P 19:57:30 Deewiant, hm maybe I should stress the *last* syllable 19:57:35 sounds quite fun 19:57:40 in oklopol 19:57:41 I pronounce it like "doobela" in Finnish; that would be something like "doo" as in the word "door", then "be" as in the word "bed", and then the "la" as in... uh, "last". 19:57:48 AnMaster: err, no, don't do that. ;-P 19:57:55 Deewiant, why not? It sounds fun 19:58:12 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:58:17 fizzie: american "last" is not that "la" 19:58:24 AnMaster: well, you can do whatever you want of course! 19:58:26 oklopol: i am a mutant: http://filebin.ca/stzadm/aaaaaeriueuriuear.mp3 19:58:27 -!- asiekierka has joined. 19:58:35 Deewiant: You're right, I just couldn't figure out a good example there. 19:58:36 finished up the DOBELA wiki entry 19:58:41 And so, i'm done. 19:58:42 Deewiant, what about your nick? 19:58:44 fizzie: "love" 19:58:48 Dee-wiant 19:58:48 ? 19:58:57 long or short e? 19:59:03 like "deviant", pronouncing "v" as "w" if you wish. 19:59:13 oddly, http://filebin.ca/stzadm/aaaaaeriueuriuear.mp3 gets louder the lower my voice is 19:59:20 yes, I pronounce it as "deviant" but with w not v 19:59:34 Deewiant, so not a long e? 19:59:41 I always thought it was 19:59:53 Deewiant: Okay, it's closer that way. I was trying to think of words that I'd start with a "la"-like sound, but the only things that came to mind were "lament" and "lart". 20:00:03 fizzie: Also, "luck". 20:00:10 AnMaster: it's long, yes. 20:00:29 or "lack" 20:00:32 "lack" thereof 20:00:36 asiekierka: no, that's again wrong. :-P 20:00:44 "larder" 20:00:47 or just "lard" 20:01:04 Deewiant, I tried to adjust sound levels. 20:01:08 lets see if it helps 20:01:20 "fizzie" is easy to pronounce, I think 20:01:28 I wonder if I pronounce it the same way as other people 20:01:35 unless it's meant to be pronounced finnish-ly 20:01:38 if not, "fizzy" 20:01:50 Deewiant, http://omploader.org/vdXZl 20:01:55 Deewiant, what about that for your nick? 20:01:59 ais523: People who use that name for me in real life just shorten it to "fiz"; like "fizz" but with a shorter buzz at the end. 20:02:01 and how are sound levels? 20:02:18 and yes I need to speak low to not disturb other ppl 20:02:19 AnMaster: replaygain gives only +10 dB now. :-) 20:02:30 Deewiant, "turn volume up"? 20:02:34 tried that one? 20:02:39 AnMaster: no, that's what replay gain is for. 20:03:05 AnMaster: as for pronounciation, I'm not really hearing the "i" but I guess it's fine 20:03:09 Deewiant, ah there is an option "mic boost +20 db"? 20:03:14 in the mixer settings 20:03:21 maybe that is a good idea? 20:03:38 that, and undo what you did previously to increase it 20:03:58 Deewiant, "turning recording level from 90% to 100% for channel mic" 20:04:00 Hmm. So, as it turns out, DOBELA is left alone. Until someone makes an interpreter of something for it. And comparison is going to be a neato task. See you, and I hope the challenge of DOBELA TC-proving may be solved 20:04:02 was what I did before 20:04:16 Deewiant, ugh I just get a LOT of loud noise now 20:04:17 AnMaster: so bring it to 85% and do the boost thing. 20:04:18 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:04:32 GASP! INTERPRETERS DO NOT WRITE THEMSELVES 20:05:26 Deewiant: Oh, and yes, most people I've heard to say "fizzie" have done it pretty finnish-ly, when not abbreviating it. Like "fitsie", not "fisi". 20:05:32 Omploaded 'fizzie.ogg' to http://omploader.org/vdXZm 20:05:34 Deewiant, fizzie ^ 20:05:47 fizzie: oh, finnish "z" too, didn't even realize that one :-) 20:05:55 ehird, he should write it himself, as I suggested before 20:05:59 and so did you 20:06:01 AnMaster: he can't 20:06:04 as he just admitted he can't program 20:06:07 very well 20:06:11 AnMaster: +7 dB from replay gain now 20:06:13 unfortunately, everything he does is terminally uninteresting 20:06:17 so it wont' be written 20:06:17 Deewiant, heh 20:06:35 Deewiant, when I play it back it got lots and lots of noise 20:06:43 brb 20:06:46 ehird, indeed 20:07:04 AnMaster: most albums these days get -10 dB from replay gain 20:07:06 fizzie, how was my attempt at your nick btw? 20:07:09 Deewiant: Well, I don't really have a preferred pronunciation for it. 20:07:16 AnMaster: see "loudness war" at wikipedia if you're interested 20:07:30 Deewiant, ugh. Well I change my headset volume as needed :p 20:07:32 AnMaster: I guess I'll have to fetch my headphones and check. 20:08:06 anyway can't record more now without disturbing ppl 20:08:38 Deewiant, also if you want I could do your nick in Swedish instead (but not right now) 20:08:46 ;P 20:09:01 deeeviant (stressing the second syllable) 20:09:01 AnMaster: I'll reiterate: "err, don't do that." :-P 20:09:11 Deewiant, why not? got anything against Swedish? 20:09:12 :( 20:09:21 hmm, swedish pronunciation in my mind would stress the last syllable 20:09:25 also: "fissi" ;P 20:09:41 Deewiant, depends on dialect 20:09:57 you could get a horribly strong "eeee" in some dialects 20:10:26 AnMaster: Well, you're not the only one who says it like that. It's not the "finnishy" way of doing it, but as far as I'm concerned there isn't a specific correct way anyway. 20:10:27 Stockholmsa for example I think 20:11:09 fizzie, Well in Swedish it would have been like s, and no "buzzing z" (no idea about the correcting English word there, would be "tonande z" in Swedish) 20:11:17 except we don't have that sound 20:12:19 fizzie, would that be better? 20:14:22 The most Finnishy way has a rather peculiar 'z', it's that "ts" sound. Maybe Deewiant can describe it better. 20:14:56 My wife uses something close to how you'd probably say "fis" when talking with her relatives. 20:15:03 (My own relatives just use the real name.) 20:15:05 fizzie: German prononuces z like that too 20:15:46 it's z in IPA for what it's worth 20:15:54 hm 20:15:56 or wait 20:15:58 no idea about that z 20:15:58 is it 20:16:33 IPA 'z' is "zoo", "rose"; so maybe not. 20:16:34 no, it's not, it's t͡s or something 20:17:09 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolar_affricate 20:17:12 wikipedia said simply ts 20:18:29 Aw, the ts-ligature thing looks funnier than just "ts with an arc above". 20:22:07 hmm, nobody's pronounced Asztal yet 20:23:18 "åstål" 20:23:39 the 'a' is the Hungarian a, which is like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Open_back_rounded_vowel.ogg 20:23:54 "åstål påstår att" 20:23:59 the stress is on the first syllable, and sz is pronounce like english s :) 20:24:40 as for the L, I think it's probably more like the Finnish one 20:24:54 "English s" really depends on whatever is around it; is it the IPA 's', like in "see" or "city" or "pass"? 20:25:21 ok, yes, that S. 20:25:42 I should have known better than to use English as a reference... 20:26:04 'it sounds kind of like "ough"' 20:26:48 hmm, that ɒ is one weird (but cool) sound 20:28:03 found in hungarian, persian, afrikaans and some random languages + the only correct way of pronouncing english 20:31:01 For some reason the term "received pronunciation" always makes me think it wants to say "English pronunciation as received from God", or something. Where does the name come from, anyway? 20:32:01 political correctness, I think 20:32:52 fizzie: The word received conveys its original meaning of accepted or approved – as in "received wisdom".[3] 20:33:05 -!- M0ny has quit ("Hum... Hum..."). 21:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | In Python.... x = not x returns the opposite boolean value.... so infinity would have to have some sort of boolean value.. 21:14:44 oh Dobela is an acronym, i thought it would be some polish word... is it that too? 22:03:32 -!- Corun_ has joined. 22:03:49 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:49:17 oklopol 22:55:00 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 23:00:59 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:03:06 psygnisfive 23:03:16 hey 23:03:36 hey 23:09:59 pm 23:11:29 am 23:15:21 fm 23:16:53 md 23:17:09 (best. game. ever.) 23:19:35 (oerjan: i think it's your turn...) 23:19:48 but i don't get what md is 23:20:01 ah 23:20:04 then i guess you lost. 23:20:08 darn. 23:20:22 mendelevium 23:20:32 that's - a game? 23:20:43 well yes 23:20:50 someone says something 23:21:01 mendelevium is a chemical, isnt' it? 23:21:02 the next one in turn tries to find a category the thing said is an element of 23:21:12 and finds the "next element" in that category 23:21:17 or just another element if there's no order 23:21:22 aha 23:21:26 pm => am => fm => md 23:21:38 i was confused. i thought you were saying md _was_ a game 23:21:43 ah 23:22:51 in which case 23:23:59 phd 23:26:52 o 23:26:59 p 23:27:04 ... 23:27:04 o 23:27:20 mac 23:27:29 oilskin coat 23:27:55 oerjan: yeah, that was quite an obvious one 23:28:10 which one? 23:28:13 also, everyone knows that oko comes after o 23:28:14 phd 23:28:28 ais523: only in one category 23:28:38 oko is a language too... 23:28:58 after oko... 23:29:04 nopol 23:29:04 oko is an abbreviation for a finnish bank 23:29:19 disturbing 23:29:42 well, ook would be even more disturbing 23:30:02 phd would've been a bit hard to continue 23:30:12 yes i realized 23:30:20 but then so is oilskin coat 23:30:48 i couldn't think of any other 2-letter doctorates without cheating 23:31:44 hm i should have said mc instead of mac. then we could have had car, cdr, ... 23:33:34 ...mac? 23:34:05 surname prefixes 23:35:13 just ask O'Sullivan over there 23:41:28 lost the game 23:42:23 hm is there a game named "Lost"? probably. 23:42:33 yep 23:42:35 Lost: The Game 23:42:37 based on the lost franchise 23:42:40 saw it in a store a while ago 23:42:46 nearly killed myself >:( 23:43:12 the question is, does it have a way to win? :D 23:43:44 oerjan: its a board game i think 23:43:46 and probably 23:43:48 that does seem sort of against the spirit 23:43:51 but you want a game called The Game 23:43:54 not a game called Lost 23:44:07 there was a video game as the first google hit 23:44:29 no, no, i was thinking: Lost, the game 23:44:38 where the comma is strictly optional 23:45:37 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:45:47 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:46:26 Enki-Du 23:51:36 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 23:52:09 okay 23:52:10 01:27:12 oerjan: mac 23:52:11 01:27:21 ais523: oilskin coat 23:52:14 i missed these two lines 23:52:20 everything is much clearer now. 23:53:14 it all makes sense if you trust the little green man 23:54:40 hmm, could you also say "green little man"? 23:55:08 quite possibly 23:55:25 somehow, that doesn't sound bad even though adjectives usually wanna be the last attributes 23:55:33 hmm 23:55:47 er they are both adjectives 23:56:06 actually probably because "X-ey little man" is quite common 23:56:10 funny little man 23:56:30 don't tell him he's X-ey. he could get angry. 23:56:36 oerjan: yes, but, for instance the canonical example, "red big balloon" is definitely wrong 23:57:27 hm 23:58:18 sometimes adjectives just need to be in a certain order, determined by Magic 23:59:24 you know, the magic science is indisguishable from until psygnisfive tells us why that happens 2008-10-22: 00:00:03 actually there are certain well defined orderings for adjectives that seem to hold across languages. :) 00:00:20 indeed, it's "iso punainen pallo" in finnish too 00:00:21 that seems unlikely. after all psygnisfive is not green. afaik. 00:00:48 you can probably deduce punainen:fi means red and iso:fi means big 00:01:28 i guess the romance distinction between adjectives that go before and after the noun follow the same pattern? 00:01:52 psygnisfive: what are the orderings? 00:02:00 *follows 00:02:35 actually, romance adjectives that precede the noun are very rare, are restricted to certain classes of adjectives, and the readings you get from putting them before the noun are not the same as the ones from after the noun 00:03:02 i thought big and little were pretty rare too 00:03:02 e.g. in italian, "un uomini grande" (or whatever the exact words are), means "a large man" 00:03:19 but "un grande uomini" means "a great man/man of great character" 00:03:31 as for the ordering, i cant give them to you off the top of my head 00:03:32 oerjan: it's the color that does it, not the size 00:03:41 iirc you mean "uomo" 00:03:54 yeah uomo 00:03:58 uomini is men 00:04:01 on bathroom doors 00:04:02 XD 00:06:39 hm possibly little placed after other adjectives has a slightly different meaning too 00:08:50 i sense sort of a diminutive connotation 00:09:16 yes. the standard, non-interesting ordering is mostly the same across languages 00:09:21 in english you can reorder for emphasis 00:09:38 for instance if you have two large books, one red and one blue 00:09:46 and a small red one 00:09:54 and someone says which do you want? 00:10:02 you could say, the red one 00:10:05 and they would say, which red one? 00:10:07 you could say 00:10:19 the red LARGE one. 00:10:23 or whatever 00:10:24 i dont know 00:10:25 :P{ 00:12:04 is that a sad face with a funny nose or a funny nose with a sad smile? 00:12:06 err 00:12:09 i mean 00:12:15 or was the { a typo 00:12:35 psygnisfive has a very strange beard 00:12:42 or some serious drooling 00:12:44 type, bitch 00:12:54 type? 00:13:05 typo 00:13:07 of typo 00:13:11 type typo 00:13:12 typoe 00:13:28 edgar allan typoe 00:13:35 never typoe in a canoe 00:13:40 -!- Corun_ has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 00:15:05 avoid silly metaphors like the plague 00:15:28 and don't exaggerate even if your life depends on it 00:16:56 also avoid silly syntactic ambiguities like the plague 00:19:38 especially if you don't have a barn fell 00:20:06 the horse that raced past the barn fell fell? 00:20:36 your mother 00:20:43 bye 00:20:50 bye 00:20:55 bye 00:20:56 <3 00:21:27 in one fell swoop 00:22:32 i think people who claim fell can only be a verb have something to hide 00:24:03 :D 00:34:55 my opinion of them just fell 00:35:46 my opinion of your mother just fell 00:35:52 fell fell fell fell 00:35:56 psygnisfive: stop insulting my mother 00:36:00 ^choo fell 00:36:00 fell ell ll l 00:36:05 ^choo fellfellfellfellfell 00:36:05 fellfellfellfellfell ellfellfellfellfell llfellfellfellfell lfellfellfellfell fellfellfellfell ellfellfellfell llfellfellfell lfellfellfell fellfellfell ellfellfell llfellfell lfellfell fellfell ellfell llfe ... 00:36:20 ^choo choo 00:36:20 choo hoo oo o 00:36:28 ^ choo boo 00:36:32 blah 00:36:35 ^cho lament 00:36:35 lamentamentmententntt 00:36:43 ^cho oklopol 00:36:43 oklopolklopollopolopolpololl 00:36:48 haha i love that 00:36:49 ^cho bana 00:36:49 banaananaa 00:36:56 %choo fell 00:37:00 ^cho ban 00:37:00 ^choo fell 00:37:00 banann 00:37:00 fell ell ll l 00:37:14 what determines whether there're spaces or not? 00:37:18 ^choo 123 00:37:19 123 23 3 00:37:19 lament: cho/choo 00:37:31 ^cho cho 00:37:31 chohoo 00:37:33 ^choo choo 00:37:33 choo hoo oo o 00:37:35 ^choo chatanooga 00:37:35 chatanooga hatanooga atanooga tanooga anooga nooga ooga oga ga a 00:40:33 ^cho khaki 00:40:33 khakihakiakikii 00:41:24 oerjan: it's really annoying when you play with the bots for so many screenfulls..... 00:41:53 ^cho choo choooo 00:41:54 choo choooohoo choooooo chooooo choooo choooochoooohoooooooooooooo 00:42:16 ^choo `sk 00:42:16 * oerjan swats oklopot with a kettle 00:42:16 `sk sk k 00:42:20 ^choo `s`kk 00:42:20 `s`kk s`kk `kk kk k 00:42:42 can that work? 00:42:46 ^choo ``s`kk 00:42:46 ``s`kk `s`kk s`kk `kk kk k 00:43:06 ^choo `````s`kk 00:43:06 `````s`kk ````s`kk ```s`kk ``s`kk `s`kk s`kk `kk kk k 00:43:27 glabh. 00:43:41 ^cho unlambda 00:43:41 unlambdanlambdalambdaambdambdabdadaa 00:43:52 is unlambdanlambdalambdaambdambdabdadaa tc? 00:44:02 no, it's tcc 00:44:07 its neither 00:44:29 its turingcompleteuringcompleteringcompleteingcompletengcompletegcompleteompletempletepleteleteetetee 00:45:05 ^choo turing complete 00:45:06 turing complete uring complete ring complete ing complete ng complete g complete complete complete omplete mplete plete lete ete te e 00:45:21 also ^cho on a well-formed unlambda expression (longer than a single letter) cannot work i think 00:45:42 but maybe if you start with something that has more ` 00:45:50 oerjan: but what if the expression itself isn't well-wormed? 00:45:51 ... 00:45:55 well-wormed yes 00:46:01 that's what i said 00:46:08 no it wasn't 00:46:13 you weren't talking about worms 00:46:18 if you add more ` 00:46:34 yeah 00:46:36 hmm 00:46:43 i suggest fe worm a committee to investigate 00:47:04 ^cho ``s 00:47:04 ``s`ss 00:47:22 not quite 00:48:13 ^cho ``sk 00:48:13 ``sk`skskk 00:48:16 you can probably like, compile unlambda progs to unlaambdanlamb..., but somehow making it ignore the nlambdalambdaambda... part 00:48:21 ^cho ```sk 00:48:21 ```sk``sk`skskk 00:48:40 :P 00:48:41 ah well 00:48:53 ^cho ``ss`k 00:48:53 ``ss`k`ss`kss`ks`k`kk 00:49:03 ^cho ``s`k 00:49:03 ``s`k`s`ks`k`kk 00:49:14 done 00:50:30 so say you have something like ```sii``sii 00:50:52 could you somehow en-cho that so that it just runs that actual program 00:51:03 ^cho ```sii``sii 00:51:04 ```sii``sii``sii``sii`sii``siisii``siiii``siii``sii``sii`siisiiiii 00:51:21 toooo tired 00:52:16 well apart from those interpreters that ignore extra parts of the file (or treat it as program input) 00:52:37 ya 00:52:44 (which is easy since unlambda is LR(0)) 00:54:44 (ignoring whitespace) 00:54:53 ^cho baz 00:54:53 bazazz 00:54:55 (& comments) 00:55:06 err, why lr(0)? 00:55:27 oh and have anyone found actual real words produced by ^cho 00:55:36 oerjan: i'm looking 00:55:40 bazazz is one 00:56:05 because you don't need to look at next character to know how things parse so far 00:56:13 but it's not much of a word 00:56:17 bazazz is like "balls"? 00:56:21 "to have bazazz" 00:56:22 as is pazazz 00:56:31 pazazz actually has nearly 100K google hits 00:56:33 ^cho paz 00:56:33 pazazz 00:56:49 it's a clothing company 00:58:30 ^cho pos 00:58:30 pososs 00:58:33 ... 00:58:47 i was thinking posess, which was almost possess 00:58:55 so that was both pointless and a failure 01:02:48 yes 01:02:56 ^cho as 01:02:56 ass 01:03:03 ^cho ww 01:03:03 www 01:03:09 there's quite a few three-letter words which work 01:03:18 ^cho be 01:03:18 bee 01:03:19 well yeah 01:03:24 three and one 01:03:30 that's a bit trivial 01:03:45 unfortunately, i'm afraid bazazz and pazazz are the only ones in my dictionary otherwise 01:03:48 (that are full matches) 01:03:55 you actually searched? 01:03:58 sure 01:04:01 hmph this one has only pazazz 01:04:01 okay 01:04:13 well check 1234234344 too, just to be sure 01:04:21 ^cho hm 01:04:21 hmm 01:04:29 i checked '\(.\)\(.\)\1\2\2$' 01:04:32 ^cho hmmm 01:04:32 hmmmmmmmmm 01:04:37 ^cho hmmmmmmm 01:04:37 hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 01:04:54 that includes everything relevant + some noise 01:05:13 oerjan: i checked those things for length of chain of 1 to 5 01:05:20 nothing 01:05:33 are there any cho's? 01:05:36 err 01:05:38 choo's 01:05:43 well there was AAAAAA 01:05:45 that's a bit harder to search 01:05:48 yeah, i got aaaaa too 01:06:03 ^cho BOOOO 01:06:03 BOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 01:06:24 well not really harder, but if you're using regexps for this, it's prolly impossible 01:07:09 words such that every tail is also a word? 01:07:16 ah 01:07:21 put that way, it's quite simple 01:07:44 because that's equal to words such that the tail is also such a word 01:08:40 so just one lookup per word, and a flag for each 01:12:45 haha 01:12:47 searched 01:12:53 ^choo wrestable 01:12:53 wrestable restable estable stable table able ble le e 01:13:04 ble is a word? 01:13:06 no 01:13:10 err 01:13:10 yes 01:13:31 it's some abbreviation 01:13:35 and i cut off at 2 01:14:11 i can try without cutoff 01:14:19 wow cool 01:15:15 oooooh 01:15:18 ^choo suprising 01:15:18 suprising uprising prising rising ising sing ing ng g 01:15:23 very nice 01:16:02 what's suprising? 01:16:35 no idea! 01:16:49 considering i got this from a "spell checker word list"... 01:17:28 it's in this one too 01:17:43 it certainly doesn't seem real... 01:18:18 dictionary.com claims it doesn't exist 01:18:38 err and what's ising? 01:19:04 as does merriam-webster 01:19:12 is it what they make isinglass from? :) 01:19:13 dictionary.com says ising is a word (but shows the entry for vocalize, oddly) 01:19:33 Ising is a last name... 01:19:42 i can do a search on the some 150 dictionaries lingobot has, tomorrow 01:19:45 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 01:19:47 wikipedia alone has 226 typos of suprising 01:19:52 hehe 01:19:53 suprising is a last name too 01:19:54 not ising either 01:20:01 err 01:20:05 suprise is, i mean 01:20:06 ... 01:20:09 there's more than a million hits for suprising 01:20:11 on google 01:20:13 that doesn't exactly make suprising a word 01:20:14 xD 01:20:15 no 01:20:17 it doesn't 01:20:41 okay i'm officially too tired now. 01:20:47 see you tomorrow -> 01:20:54 well if we consider how many of those were using faulty linux dictionaries... 01:21:09 no wonder it is spreading 01:21:38 * oerjan should officially go to bed too 01:21:43 good night 01:21:59 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 01:53:49 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:23:05 -!- kwertii has joined. 03:07:09 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | And Prim is some wacky little thing.. 03:17:16 -!- immibis has joined. 04:19:05 ^cho Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 04:19:06 Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ... 04:31:56 -!- ab5tract has joined. 04:48:01 ^cho Is this just an echo thing? 04:48:01 Is this just an echo thing?s this just an echo thing? this just an echo thing?this just an echo thing?his just an echo thing?is just an echo thing?s just an echo thing? just an echo thing?just an echo thing? ... 04:48:19 ^cho Not quite 04:48:19 Not quiteot quitet quite quitequiteuiteitetee 04:48:35 ^cho ababababa 04:48:35 ababababababababaababababababaababababaababaa 04:48:48 ^cho ab 04:48:48 abb 04:49:12 ^cho This is lame. 04:49:12 This is lame.his is lame.is is lame.s is lame. is lame.is lame.s lame. lame.lame.ame.me.e.. 04:53:03 ^cho fungot is a crazy woromboist 04:53:03 fungot is a crazy woromboistungot is a crazy woromboistngot is a crazy woromboistgot is a crazy woromboistot is a crazy woromboistt is a crazy woromboist is a crazy woromboistis a crazy woromboists a crazy w ... 04:53:09 awww 04:53:16 ^cho a 04:53:16 a 04:53:32 fungot doesnt respond to saying its own name :( 04:53:33 ab5tract: that's a ver absic interface to mod_lisp... 04:53:46 you're tellin me buddy 04:54:16 ^cho Üņìçôđé ŗūĺz 04:54:17 Üņìçôđé ŗūĺzņìçôđé ŗūĺzņìçôđé ŗūĺzìçôđé ŗūĺzìçôđé ŗūĺzçôđé ŗūĺzçôđé ŗūĺzôđé ŗūĺzôđé ŗūĺzđé ŗūĺzđé ŗūĺzé ŗūĺzé ŗūĺ ... 04:54:20 YAY 04:54:35 Epic failurz lawl 04:55:11 wooooo! 04:55:36 fungot should keep count 04:55:36 ab5tract: by ted fnord: fnord fnord tiksi fnord fnord 04:55:50 that wouldn't count 05:43:45 ^cho øô 05:43:45 øôôô 05:43:51 ^cho ø 05:43:51 ø 05:44:14 fungot: not as impressive as you seem? 05:44:15 ab5tract: that's only a warning. 05:44:21 fungot: hahahaha 05:44:22 ab5tract: luxy i cant wait to see fahrenheit 911 when it comes to names 05:48:25 -!- BoB has joined. 05:48:53 -!- BoB has changed nick to Guest29504. 05:49:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:50:45 -!- moozilla has joined. 05:53:10 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has quit (Nick collision from services.). 05:53:15 -!- Guest29504 has changed nick to Jiminy_Cricket. 05:58:18 -!- Guest29504 has joined. 05:58:20 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has quit (Nick collision from services.). 05:58:26 -!- Guest29504 has changed nick to Jiminy_Cricket. 06:01:27 -!- asiekierka has joined. 06:01:28 Hi 06:08:12 -!- Guest29504 has joined. 06:08:12 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:08:20 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has quit (Nick collision from services.). 06:08:22 -!- Guest29504 has changed nick to Jiminy_Cricket. 06:14:55 -!- asiekierka has joined. 06:14:56 unfortunately, everything he does is terminally uninteresting 06:14:57 *AHEM* 06:15:04 that was NOT funny 06:18:12 -!- Guest29504 has joined. 06:24:23 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 06:40:20 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 07:37:36 -!- kwertii has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 07:45:59 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:14:49 -!- Slereah has joined. 08:14:49 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:35:04 -!- ab5tract has quit. 08:42:43 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:43:01 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 08:49:49 -!- Slereah has joined. 08:50:08 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 08:50:50 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 08:50:50 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:07:09 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | so then I searched for a few people in the chat room. 09:09:48 -!- Guest29504 has changed nick to Jiminy_Cricket. 09:16:43 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:16:43 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:32:48 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 09:37:29 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 10:20:55 -!- metazilla has joined. 10:21:03 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 10:28:11 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:55:01 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:50:01 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:50:11 bitchanger -> bitch anger D: 12:14:14 asiekierka: unfortunately, everything he does is terminally uninteresting 12:14:16 [12:13] asiekierka: *AHEM* 12:14:18 [12:13] asiekierka: that was NOT funny 12:14:20 that's ok, it wasn't a joke. 12:28:14 Heh, the people from the local computer science students' club/association/thing sent this postcard from the annual Saint Petersburg train-trip: http://flickr.com/photos/oiva/2920226756/ 12:30:11 And it managed to get all the way back here to the computer science building; the full address would be "Konemiehentie 2, 02150 Espoo". Admittedly the crossword puzzle is _very_ simple (if you speak Finnish, that is), but it's still rather neat that they did deliver it at all. 12:30:37 Hm. Where is my ircnomic bot? 12:30:41 That is the question 12:31:28 I wouldn't be too surprised if it had included the postal number (the local post office is probably pretty used to receiving cards like that) but that one only has "Finland", which I guess means some sort of central post office person has had to puzzle out the correct address. 12:33:13 what's the last one+ 12:33:15 ? 12:33:38 oklopol: "hammas", I think. 12:33:49 (Teeth, for non-Finnish people.) 12:33:53 14:30:58 @Nailor: http://flickr.com/photos/oiva/2920226756/ 12:34:09 my uni's channels 12:34:12 *channel 12:34:20 That, and the earlier "ikkuna" (window) were the hardest ones. 12:34:26 Heh, it goes around and around. 12:34:27 well not the university's, the... what's the smaller thing :-) 12:34:45 did that originate from you? 12:34:58 oh, hammas, i was thinking huuli[s] 12:35:25 No; but I got the link from the person whose flicker account it is, so my copy was just a second-generation one. 12:35:36 Not that there seems to be much degradation in the URL. 12:36:02 i'm not sure what i'm meant to get about that card 12:36:03 :-d 12:36:05 *:-D 12:36:05 Or is it a first-generation copy when it's directly from the original? Not sure. 12:36:13 meanwhile 12:36:19 nomicbot seems to be dead 12:36:20 :-( 12:36:22 ehird: the address is given as a crossword puzzle 12:36:22 i cannot find it. 12:36:32 in a postcard 12:36:37 oklopol: haha, that is great 12:37:01 next up: NP-complet address calculation 12:37:07 *complete 12:37:13 The post office person hadn't actually filled the address in the crossword, though, just there on the empty address lines. 12:38:05 And the "kiinnostaa"/"ei kiinnosta" checkboxes ("interesting"/"not interesting") also went unmarked. I guess they have some sort of policy not to write in people's postcards. :p 12:38:26 *interested 12:38:47 np complete addresses would own 12:39:08 yes, except they would just return the card 12:39:30 "anyone knows them algos here?" "nah" "oki ima send this back" 12:39:36 well, uh, if i sent out a postcard addressed with a crossword i'd expect it to be returned 12:39:37 :-P 12:40:03 well, i can pretty much just read that without thinking, apart from the last clue 12:40:23 which wasn't really needed 12:40:43 Yes, as far as crossword puzzles go that was a really simple one. 12:40:51 It'd help if I knew finnish, of course. 12:41:12 but yeah, if i sent out anything remotely like that it'dd just be returned 12:41:14 all crossword puzzles with a "solution row" are trivial 12:41:22 It's just "cat" (the word 'miau' is the finnish version of 'meow'), "apple", "nose", "snail", "man", "window", "no", "tooth". 12:41:31 well, the puzzle part is trivial 12:42:05 the picture decrypting may not be 12:49:53 perhaps i should do some work on noprob today 12:50:04 i think i've finally wrapped my head around the probabilities 12:51:42 the implementation will, though, list the entire truth table all the time, because probabilities become a bit tricky otherwise, and i have no idea how to do problotures yet, because i'm not sure how to list the *whole* truth table *lazily* 13:22:11 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:22:11 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:33:04 "True if the given string or variable's value is lexicographically less (or greater, or equal) than the string on the right." 13:33:05 hm 13:33:16 would that imply case sensitive or case insensitive 13:33:27 * AnMaster curses bad docs 13:34:14 or doesn't it say? Hm 13:37:52 hrrm a test shows it is case sensitive 13:38:14 * AnMaster looks for an insensitive string compare in cmake... 13:40:32 You can always string(TOLOWER in out) them both. Not very pretty. 13:46:11 yes=1, no=0 13:46:13 ^bool 13:46:14 No. 13:46:40 fizzie, breaks since string may not be set 13:46:45 I'm trying to compare the build type 13:47:00 but other than that I already coded the something like that 13:47:15 * AnMaster tries to figure out how to handle " STRING no output variable specified" 13:47:21 also in needs to be ${in} 13:47:36 since string only takes a string, not a variable 13:47:41 at least in cmake 2.4 13:47:48 which is what I got here 13:48:24 hm quoting it too seems to work 13:49:19 s/got/have 13:50:07 :P 13:50:36 i've never understood why people keep making the same simple mistakes 13:50:57 the reason is probably they don't give a shit 13:51:04 but it's still confuzzling 13:51:15 well I try to, it is just due to bad habit 13:51:21 habits* (?) 13:52:03 bad habit is fine methinks. 13:52:14 but not the best way to put it 13:56:19 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:02:22 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 14:17:25 hey ais523 14:18:08 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 14:18:18 hi ehird 14:18:56 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 14:31:47 -!- M0ny has joined. 14:31:59 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:32:25 plop 14:33:05 hi ais523 14:33:11 hi AnMaster 14:33:14 and hi M0ny 14:33:30 hi AnMaster and ais523 14:34:08 Hi-hat. 14:35:51 -!- Slereah has joined. 14:35:51 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:38:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:54:10 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:59:30 hi all 14:59:53 * oerjan was going to list everyone's nicks there, but suddenly realized that was a bad idea 15:00:54 hi /names 15:01:53 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:02:52 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:07:09 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I hate how, no matter what concept of programming you follow, there's always a nasty corner :P. 15:08:07 clearly we need a concept of soft, fuzzy programming 15:18:51 -!- asiekierka has joined. 15:18:56 Bo--oh well... Hello! 15:19:05 Hiiii 15:19:11 ehird, i hate you 15:19:11 the ho 15:19:57 asiekierka: joining, and then saying you hate ehird before he's even said anything? 15:20:03 Bye all 15:20:11 Nope 15:20:11 ais523: response to what he said in the log 15:20:13 yesd 15:20:15 yes* 15:20:15 basically 15:20:19 unfortunately, everything he does is terminally uninteresting 15:20:24 maybe you're right 15:20:25 ssure 15:20:27 ah, I remember that now 15:20:32 but it wasn't really funny 15:20:39 but different people have different ideas of which esoprograms are interesting 15:20:40 Also, i know how to use the tunes.org logs, if you didn't know 15:20:43 well, yes 15:20:46 but he said everything 15:20:49 not only esolangs 15:20:51 but everything 15:20:57 normally when I respond to logs I give some clue that that's what I'm doing 15:21:34 don't take too much offense, ehird doesn't really watch what he says, and he to hate things 15:21:46 *he tends to 15:22:10 +ul ((-)S:^):^ 15:22:11 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...too much output! 15:22:41 how do you program unlambda? do you compile lc->ski->ul?` 15:22:51 that's the usual method 15:22:59 also, I interpret ul as referring to Underload, normally 15:23:04 what i'm asking is do you do that 15:23:10 err yes, i meant underload 15:23:19 with unlambda too :D 15:23:22 oh, Underload programming is pretty different 15:23:35 normally I program directly in the Underload, I have quite an idea of how it works by now 15:23:45 that's what i hoped 15:23:51 because i can't do it, it's pretty cool 15:23:57 i should try it 15:24:03 although I have an optimising ski compiler that can compile ``sii into :^, :^ is probably intuitively easier to understand 15:24:12 underload might be close to Joy than unlambda, maybe? 15:24:15 *closer 15:24:16 and there are tricks that work in Underload but not LC 15:24:18 oerjan: yes 15:24:42 for instance, my divide-by-10 code works by using the stack 15:24:53 and each stack element pops the 9 below it 15:25:03 and then executes the one below 15:25:24 I can't even think of a way to express that sort of thing in a non-concatenative lang, except by bundling a concatenative interpreter 15:25:58 Ok 15:25:59 i don't get how that works 15:26:00 I forgive ehird 15:26:03 but only this one time 15:26:05 :P 15:26:11 Anyway, I may write some other esolangs 15:26:15 or DOBELA_nano 15:26:22 which is DOBELA squeezed even more 15:26:29 Actually, DOBELA itself could be called DOBELA_mini 15:26:33 asiekierka: when he comes online, he will definitely give you another reason to hate him, it's his thing 15:26:33 since it was squeezed by me 15:26:39 asiekierka: you didn't notice my question whether DOBELA means anything in polish? 15:26:43 nope 15:26:46 and nope 15:26:49 it doesn't mean anything 15:26:56 +ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^ 15:26:58 */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/******************************************************* ...too much output! 15:26:59 It stands for DOt-Based Esoteric LAnguage, read the wiki entry 15:27:05 i did 15:27:25 but it could still have a meaningful acronym 15:27:36 But i like DOBELA 15:27:41 especially how it's pronounced 15:27:42 :) 15:27:42 i wonder if you could make something like a boolean circuit out of that 15:27:47 i'm not complaining 15:27:56 oklopol: of what? 15:28:11 it's an african name, if google speaks truely 15:28:22 asiekierka: of DOBELA, presumably 15:28:32 yeah, of dobela 15:28:33 quite possibly 15:28:41 does DOBELA have any way to remove # signs once they've been created? 15:28:47 Nope 15:28:48 if it doesn't, control flow might be quite hard 15:28:54 But it has other control flow ways 15:28:55 like | 15:28:58 ais523: computation can only be done using | afaik 15:28:59 ah, ok 15:29:05 it has a state 15:29:13 Also, you can stop the generator thing 15:29:45 asiekierka: it's much easier to program with locals than globals, if you've only got globals like the generator then proving TCness is much harder, whether it's TC or not 15:30:12 +ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:)~*(*)*( )S~:^):^ 15:30:29 ais523: locals and globals in what sense? 15:30:34 ais523: Uh, yes, i could make it that if a generator is hit north, it changes it's state (on/off) and when hit south, it's type (zeros/ones) 15:30:37 oklopol: things local to part of a program 15:30:38 No new commands 15:30:39 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 8 ...too much output! 15:30:40 local control 15:30:47 the problem is that controlling generators is a global thing 15:30:48 But setting the global one overrides everything 15:30:57 So you can control the local one 15:31:00 asiekierka: i noticed some holes in the spec, say what happens with multi-dot collisions 15:31:02 and the global ones 15:31:07 Hm, multi-dot? 15:31:08 as in .. 15:31:12 .. 15:31:13 huh? 15:31:18 3 or more dots colliding 15:31:19 ais523: oh i didn't notice anything global 15:31:24 oh 15:31:26 generator control is 15:31:29 | does *that*? 15:31:35 nope 15:31:41 | can be used as a reflector 15:31:43 oh, and it's local 15:31:53 oh 15:31:58 but i'll set the generators to be local too, just in case 15:32:05 ^ 15:32:10 well that's just evil :D 15:32:14 well 15:32:15 local 15:32:17 but global if you want 15:32:22 You can either use local only 15:32:22 and also for collisions in other directions than horizontal 15:32:23 global only 15:32:24 or both 15:32:28 global overrides local 15:32:31 in generators 15:32:39 In vertical, pretty much the same happens 15:32:40 +ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^:*( )S~:^):^ 15:32:43 but east=south 15:32:44 west=north 15:32:45 :) 15:33:08 And multi-dot collisions? Pretty much it's a very rare exception 15:33:11 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 ...too much output! 15:33:20 But it's possible that one dot collides with a dot that collides with another dot 15:33:21 ugh, it wasn't meant to do that 15:33:26 asiekierka: the problem is, if you control local things with global switches, it's hard to get sensible computation, as you cannot really be modular when all parts of your program are changing the same global state for their own purposes 15:33:38 see 15:33:44 you can control local things with both now 15:33:50 But global overrides local IF YOU USE IT 15:33:52 you can use local 15:33:53 global 15:33:58 or both, overriding all when needed 15:34:05 +ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:*)*( )S~:^):^ 15:34:20 spotted the bug, I was doing x squared rather than x times 2 15:34:21 Wall/dot collisions are weird, but that was the main point of dobela 15:34:32 asiekierka: how do you do a local change? 15:34:36 As in 15:34:38 well 15:34:40 a local change? 15:34:42 Not YET written 15:34:44 give me time 15:34:44 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 ...too much memory used! 15:34:50 First we must resolve one more thing 15:34:58 also i don't see what difference it makes whether dots are 1 or 0 really 15:34:58 Multi-dot collisions 15:34:58 yay, powers of 2 15:35:02 ais523: you own 15:35:04 as in, dot collides with a dot that collides with a dot 15:35:11 i think. i can't really tell how hard that is :P 15:35:16 oklopol: not really, multiplication's easy in Underload, it's easier than addition anyway 15:35:19 Then we scan the board from north-west to south-east, left-right, up-down 15:35:28 Or rather 15:35:30 not as easy as exponentiation though 15:35:35 ais523: each me a bit, will ya? 15:35:36 First the topleftmost dot's collision is done 15:35:40 then the second topleftmost 15:35:40 +ul (:::::) 15:35:41 and so on 15:35:45 until all are processed 15:35:45 is this like, 5? 15:35:46 Yay 15:35:50 *teach 15:35:53 everything is not resolved 15:35:57 oklopol: 5 would be (::::****) 15:36:03 ah 15:36:08 +ul (::::****)(x)~^S 15:36:08 xxxxx 15:36:15 oklopol: 0 and 1 difference is mainly output, and rotation direction 15:36:17 (x)~^S is just code to output a number in unary 15:36:26 As generators output every other cycle 15:36:38 basically, in the number scheme I normally use, 0 is !() 15:36:38 ais523: yeah i get that 15:36:40 1 is the null string 15:36:43 You could use some tricks to output every 4th cycle north, and every 4th south 15:36:47 :) 15:36:49 :* is 2, ::** is 3, :::*** is 4, and so on 15:36:56 ! is pop? 15:36:59 yes 15:37:05 basically, 0 makes no copies of its argument 15:37:10 let me try to make addition 15:37:11 by popping it and replacing it with a null string 15:37:13 1 makes one copy 15:37:16 2 makes two copies 15:37:18 and so on 15:37:27 hmm, concatenation 15:37:29 is basically 15:37:33 exponentiation? 15:37:40 David DOBELA was a coach once 15:37:43 but oh well 15:37:47 I should do something, right 15:38:01 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 15:38:13 Oh 15:38:21 A comparison command is there 15:38:24 say you have numbers a and b, (x)(a)^(b)^ will do ((x*a)*b), except that's multiplication 15:38:26 and it's... yes, you guessed it, #! 15:38:29 :D 15:38:57 oklopol: yes, concatenation is exponeniation 15:38:59 asiekierka: i guessed that 15:39:09 ais523: but but, i don't see why :o 15:39:12 oklopol: ok 15:39:17 no, wait 15:39:21 well, no 15:39:23 * is multiplication 15:39:26 ^ is exponentiation 15:39:31 if you've concatenated things 15:39:34 which concatenation does depends on where the parens ar 15:39:35 *are 15:40:21 Argh, the esolang wiki crashed for me 15:40:34 asiekierka: try refreshing, if it still doesn't work there's a problem 15:40:45 works for me 15:40:51 oklopol: well, 2 means "make 2 copies", and 3 means "make 3 copies" 15:40:56 ais523: so (::::****:::***) would be 64? 15:41:04 so if you do 2 then 3, you make 2 copies of the top of the stack, then 3 copies of the top of that 15:41:13 and no, (::::***:::***) is 5*4 is 20 15:41:23 so concatenation is multiplication 15:41:25 whereas (::::***):::*** is 5^4 which is 625 15:41:29 and yes 15:41:38 ah, okay *now* i get it 15:41:47 oh my god?!? 15:41:50 +ul (::::****:::***)(x)~^S 15:41:51 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 15:41:56 +ul (::::****):::***(x)~^S 15:41:57 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 15:41:59 uhh 15:42:01 does this actually make * multiplication and ^ exponentiation? 15:42:04 yes, it does 15:42:06 ok 15:42:07 it worked 15:42:08 oh my god 15:42:14 why do you think I chose those symbols? 15:42:21 ais523: that's incredibly awesome 15:42:50 * ais523 notes that there's a bug in thutubot's ...too much output! message 15:43:00 in that sometimes it ends up clipped off because there's too much output 15:43:11 heh 15:43:27 anyway, to increment a number you put : at the start and * at the end 15:43:31 so (:)~*(*)* 15:43:38 yeah i see 15:43:45 addition is done like that too? 15:43:47 and to add two numbers, you increment the first a number of times equal to the second 15:43:53 ((:)~*(*)*)~^ 15:44:02 ((:)~*(*)*)~^^ 15:44:02 I mean 15:44:12 can't say i get that 15:44:26 well, say you have 3 beneath 5 on the stack 15:44:30 say i have 15:44:34 and you do ((:)~*(*)*)~^^ 15:44:43 you're pushing the code for increment on the stack 15:44:47 then swapping it below the 5 15:44:55 evalling the 5 with ^ makes 5 copies of increment 15:45:06 then evalling the 5 copies of increment with ^ adds 5 to the number below 15:45:13 so you end up with 8 on the stack 15:46:11 that's clever 15:46:18 very clever 15:46:35 that's the most common way to loop a fixed number of times in Underload, too 15:46:50 anything you could give me as homework? i wanna try to do something simple 15:47:07 http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/DOBELA - Some fixes 15:47:10 docs v10 done 15:47:26 try to write an infinite loop which outputs something each time round the loop, that's nice and simple 15:47:27 (wow, i actually did 10 revisions? Nope, 9, but one was a double-version fix since it changed a little too much) 15:48:04 hmm... probably the Ackermann function is simple to write in Underload too, I've never tried though 15:48:36 I wonder if you can calculate PI in underload... hmm... 15:49:03 ais523: sounds simple, /me tries 15:49:14 xkcd omg 15:49:33 +ul (:aSS):aSS 15:49:33 (:aSS):aSS 15:49:36 was that the quine 15:49:38 yeah 15:49:39 okay 15:50:10 ah, i think i see the way to do recursion 15:50:29 I generally do recursion by giving the function to itself as its first argument 15:50:30 just like you'd do it in python without globals, just give the lambda itself as param 15:50:31 using :^ 15:50:33 :^ 15:50:35 yes 15:50:45 that's exactly what i was going to say, and said 15:51:22 I wonder if DOBELA is low-level, high-level or middle-level 15:51:28 low, I think 15:51:36 +ul (:xS^):^ 15:51:43 :P 15:51:43 oklopol: x isn't a real command 15:51:46 +ul (:(x)S^):^ 15:51:47 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output! 15:51:52 wow, did i do it 15:51:52 I think low-level too 15:52:00 It's very similarly built to Circute 15:52:02 but not inspired by 15:52:07 and Circute is also low-level 15:52:08 as is BF 15:52:09 so 15:52:14 ais523: look no hands!! 15:52:16 oklopol: that looks right, yes 15:52:26 maybe I should say "look, no lambdas!" 15:52:36 but Underload is only a functional lang sometimes 15:52:48 programming in it normally ends up functionallish in practice, though 15:52:53 well i wasn't really thinking functionally there 15:52:54 asiekierka: the only usable infinite memory is the FIFO, right? so it might need to be programmed like a tag system 15:52:57 well, no 15:53:13 that's an imperative Underload program, if you just take (...:^):^ as meaning "infinite while loop" 15:53:29 oerjan: ah, tag system would work even better than Minsky machine 15:53:33 I approve of that idea 15:53:45 probably either regular tag or cyclic tag would work 15:53:48 not sure which would be easier 15:54:44 Hmm, so, do you think DOBELA is TC now 15:54:46 is it not 15:54:56 what does | do again? 15:55:05 If hit south, makes everything moving west/east go down, 15:55:05 if hit north, makes everything moving west/east go up. 15:55:19 asiekierka: it's at least pretty close 15:55:34 I think that's enough, probably 15:55:44 you could set up a cyclic tag input without problem, I think 15:55:53 use a large vertical loop 15:56:03 as in, a loop which is up and down next to each other 15:56:20 at the bottom, you use # to route 0 and 1 in different directions, and make them hit the top or bottom of a | appropriately 15:56:27 this doesn't affect the loop as it's vertical 15:56:42 and you can easily use a generator to clone the original output, making a loop that way 15:56:48 then you have a separate loop via the global FIFO 15:57:04 that is the cyclic tag system's working string 15:57:05 ok, DOBELA has more rules 15:57:14 no wait 15:57:17 one more fix 15:57:31 so yes, TC I think, the only possible reason that wouldn't work is due to it being impossible to set up the timing correctly, and I don't think that's the case 15:57:39 every other cycle 15:57:51 which can be every 4th cycle if you don't care about the dot content 15:57:55 and need a clock 15:57:56 as in 15:57:59 btw, a fun fact about noprob: even though you can write the program line by line, so that every line has one specific purpose, like setting a variable to 1%7 (my high precedence operator for division in notation), you can actually take all the triples in the program, and just scramble them anyway you like 15:58:05 except for the problotures 15:58:10 every 4th cycle left, every 4th cycle starting from the 2nd one right 15:58:14 but you can scramble them internally too 15:58:32 ok 15:58:40 So the specs are possibly done 15:59:17 this is a trivial consequence of the fact it's basically just 3-sat, of course, but it's still quite interesting how the execution will be sequential no matter what order you type things in 15:59:30 So it's not TC maybe, but at least very, VERY close 15:59:32 like, 99% TC 15:59:35 :D 15:59:41 but 1%! 15:59:44 The 1% is IMPORTANT-ish 15:59:53 The board size is theoretically infinite 15:59:55 as is the FIFO 15:59:58 yeah, you should add a dash more computation 16:00:08 You can do an IF by # 16:00:12 you can control flow by | 16:00:20 add a counter, and a command to increment it, that probably gives us about a percent more 16:00:34 you're operating on BITS 16:00:40 But yes 16:00:44 asiekierka: the problem with the board size is i don't think you have any way to grow the board contents indefinitely in a way that you can use 16:01:00 fixing 16:01:25 well 16:01:27 how to write it 16:01:29 any ideas 16:01:43 you don't need that for making a tag system though 16:01:54 the FIFO is enough 16:01:56 and is a tag system enough for TC-ness? 16:02:00 yes 16:02:08 yaay 16:02:20 So can we assume it's 100% TC, 99% TC, or not TC at all 16:02:28 I think it's 100% TC 16:02:30 tag systems are enough 16:02:32 after all 16:02:32 I also think that 16:02:47 The only thing you can't do are loops 16:02:53 Which i'll fix by adding the 10th command 16:02:54 also 16:03:01 how many commands can you have max for a turing tarpit? 16:03:10 no more than necessary 16:03:14 no wait, 11th 16:03:15 but wait 16:03:19 I don't need any more 16:03:24 then 16:03:25 but in practice, tarpits seem to work out at about 8 or 9 16:03:30 My works out at 10 16:03:36 and can do pretty much computation 16:03:46 (noprob has two things) 16:03:54 (what's noprob?) 16:03:56 (0 operators) 16:04:05 noprob is a language 16:04:19 My has already everything crammed in 16:04:23 So it has every feature needed 16:04:24 3-sat solving language, which i would very much like to be coding right now. 16:04:32 asiekierka: I don't really think of DOBELA as a tarpit 16:04:33 Also, yes, a loop is a problem 16:04:39 compare it to Black, for instance, which only has 1 command 16:04:41 yet I think it's TC 16:05:05 But it's based on AnMaster's idea. I created my wall/dot idea, he added some ideas, then went on to work on Proton 16:05:20 so AnMaster helped me SORT OF 16:05:50 having AnMaster around doesn't automatically make things tarpits :P 16:05:56 yeah 16:05:59 quite the opposite, i'd wager 16:05:59 i'm not talking about it anymore 16:06:07 AnMaster proposed some physics stuff 16:06:11 like the collisions 16:06:17 without him, collisions would be vastly different 16:08:24 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:08:38 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:10:23 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 16:10:52 So, well, is my language at least a little interesting 16:11:32 pseudo physics, since the model isn't accurate ;P 16:11:33 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:11:54 -!- asiekierka has joined. 16:12:08 Did someone say physics? 16:12:15 So, is my language at least a little interesting? - if you didn't hear 16:12:25 What is your language 16:12:41 DOBELA 16:12:51 Let's see that 16:12:59 i think not that much 16:13:02 but it may be 16:14:33 How can you rotate a dot? 16:14:41 Slereah_: # 16:14:58 I mean, conceptually 16:15:10 I find it a weird thing to say 16:16:36 Slereah_: momentum, of course. duh. 16:16:55 Oh. 16:17:01 I was thinking rotating on itself 16:17:20 "and you call yourself a physicist" 16:17:37 Well, when something hits a wall, it won't rotate 90 16:17:37 It will rotate 180 16:17:59 clearly this world has different symmetries :D 16:18:01 Unless you do something other than horizontal/vertical 16:18:16 It's not a symetry problem 16:18:21 It's conservation of momentum 16:18:45 i'm thinking noether's theorem here 16:19:43 * oerjan makes a note: physics trolling, Slereah_. linguistics trolling, psygnisfive. 16:21:03 Nope 16:21:12 it'll rotate 90s a wall, it won't rotate 90 16:21:13 It will rotate 180 16:21:14 well 16:21:15 wrong paste 16:21:19 it'll rotate 90 degrees i mean 16:21:24 if you hit a wall 16:21:32 Check Cat (commented) to see how it works 16:22:06 Also, who said this world has... PHYSICS!? 16:22:08 It's just a simple 2D world 16:23:09 It doesn't need PHYSICS 16:25:15 maybe walls are actually weird magnetic... things 16:25:29 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:26:34 Well, nope 16:26:39 We can just say dots are "living beings" 16:26:43 or wait 16:26:43 no 16:26:43 robots 16:26:48 Very basic robots though 16:26:56 that consist of a microprocessor, a lamp, and wheels 16:27:00 They move with wheels 16:27:04 hm and dots are either electrons or positrons. 16:27:10 well 16:27:10 maybe 16:27:28 but those things that convert between matter and antimatter then are a bit scary 16:27:38 what? = 16:27:41 is it "="? 16:27:53 Also, don't try to explain it 16:28:05 * oerjan checks 16:28:13 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 16:28:23 [17:17:53] clearly this world has different symmetries :D 16:28:23 [17:17:53] Unless you do something other than horizontal/vertical 16:28:23 [17:18:09] It's not a symetry problem 16:28:23 [17:18:14] It's conservation of momentum 16:28:23 [17:18:34] Which is a sort of symetry, but well 16:28:25 [17:18:39] * Disconnected 16:28:27 >:V 16:28:30 * oerjan adds: just about any trolling, asiekierka. 16:28:37 ouch 16:28:45 Durn internet 16:29:04 or maybe they just have a lot of sidespin 16:29:10 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:29:14 *oerjan adds: just about any trolling, asiekierka. 16:29:14 what 16:29:16 * asiekierka notes: calling everyone a troller, oerjan. 16:29:20 wat 16:29:34 asiekierka: no no, a victim for _my_ trolling. sheesh. 16:29:41 oh 16:29:42 i see 16:29:47 But feel free to troll me 16:29:53 I'll rickroll you then 16:29:54 just to be fair 16:29:57 ok 16:29:59 or not 16:30:24 But i'll try to cook up an eXplanation 16:30:44 Slereah_: didn't get that last one. you may wish to check tunes as a lot was said 16:30:44 asiekierka : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Argh/1221655091974.jpg 16:30:48 Is that trolly enough? :o 16:31:11 I'll check as soon as my FUCKING INTERNET WORKS >:V 16:31:26 asiekierka: also, yes = 16:32:00 -!- Slereah has joined. 16:32:04 [17:30:40] Is that trolly enough? :o 16:32:05 [17:31:02] I'll check as soon as my FUCKING INTERNET WORKS >:V 16:32:07 [17:31:29] * Disconnected* 16:32:09 I rage. 16:32:20 asiekierka: just as long as it doesn't involve smurfs. FOR MERCY'S SAKE, NO SMURFS 16:32:34 Slereah_: we got that 16:32:52 Finally. 16:32:53 Basically, we can call this 2D world a "processing being". 16:32:53 Dots are "data holders", they hold data and move it based on instructions. Walls are instructions for dots. An input outputter is connected to a wire transmitting data. 16:32:53 Outputting things are also connected to a wire, they transmit data. Flippers change the data dots hold. Generators are weird, they materialize dots. 16:32:53 The west/east control flower is an instruction holder. The FIFO controller is connected to a wire, and this manages the "RAM". 16:33:28 Oh right 16:33:36 In the Wikipedia dump I got for fungot-teaching, there are 2385413 talk pages, containing a total of 4820550212 characters of Wiki-markup. 16:33:37 fizzie: i think java's nice. not innovative, but nice idea 16:33:45 There's a generic controller too, controlling the FIFO and generators. It's also connected to a wire 16:33:48 * oerjan notes that his reverse psychology failed. 16:33:52 So 4 wires out of the "processor" 16:34:07 fungot: Do you want me to reimplement you with Java, huh? Wouldn't that be pointless? 16:34:08 fizzie: anyway using y is not something i have thought about a cons of two lists 16:34:13 Fffinally 16:34:50 asiekierka: wires are _so_ last century 16:35:13 But this is the processor of a motherboard, the code 16:35:15 the RAM is the fifo 16:35:26 And the controller is connected to... something 16:35:32 But this is my explanation 16:43:56 omg, my net slowed down a lot 16:51:52 hmm 16:52:10 I'm wondering whether to change something in DOBELA 16:52:14 keeping it at 10 commands or less 16:52:42 -!- Slereah- has joined. 16:52:48 So... much... rage... 16:52:55 D:< 16:52:58 where? 16:53:09 Uh 16:53:17 Slereah, Slereah- and Slereah_: BATTLE TIME! 16:54:07 NOTE: when fighting your own clone, make sure it's not really yourself from the past. that could be messy. 16:54:37 also, if it's yourself from the future, make sure not to lose 16:55:18 whoa whoa whoa 16:55:19 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:55:20 trolling? 16:55:23 i dont troll 16:55:25 i enlighten 16:55:27 kthxbai 16:55:27 I can troll 16:55:33 -!- asiekierka has joined. 16:55:38 asiekierka can attest to that! 16:55:39 slereah: cute kid. who is he 16:55:43 Ok 16:55:45 Well 16:55:54 Slereah, then Slereah_, then Slereah- 16:56:03 So actually, you can't fight anyone 16:56:04 psygnisfive: sheesh, you too? WHY MUST EVERYONE MUSINDERSTAND ME! 16:56:08 brb, will try to reset my `net 16:56:09 -!- asiekierka has quit (Client Quit). 16:56:33 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:56:36 ais523: it has tripped up other esolangers before, such as David Morgan-Mar 16:57:02 lost the game 16:57:43 -!- asiekierka has joined. 16:57:47 argh 16:57:50 now it works even worse 16:58:00 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:58:06 worser and worser 16:59:14 -!- asiekierka has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:59:18 -!- asiekiekka has joined. 16:59:22 Ok 17:00:00 the worsester of them all! 17:00:04 hi 17:00:08 oh wait 17:00:10 -!- asiekiekka has changed nick to asiekierka. 17:00:29 and here i thought you were bruising up on your finnish 17:00:40 Brb 17:01:48 *brushing 17:14:44 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:31:01 oerjan: Don't you mean "The Worcestershire of them all!" 17:32:00 -!- optbot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:32:01 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:32:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:32:06 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:33:49 oerjan: i understood you. 17:35:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 17:40:56 -!- thutubot has joined. 17:41:03 -!- ais523_|direct has joined. 17:41:09 wb thutubot 17:41:13 +ul (:aSS):aSS 17:41:13 (:aSS):aSS 17:41:23 Heh. 17:41:25 Ass. 17:41:38 it's not meant to be a rude joke 17:42:01 That's what they all say 17:42:06 ^ul (:aSS):aSS 17:42:08 (:aSS):aSS 17:42:11 Yeah, but when I think of Underload 17:42:13 I think of asses. 17:42:14 a originally comes from Lisp car, but the connection is so tortuous and unusual that it's unlikely to be obvious to people 17:43:06 Underload: puts the ass back into (:aSS):aSS. 17:43:12 * ais523_|direct thinks that maybe ehird shouldn't reboot servers arbitrarily without warning the other people using them... 17:43:37 oklopol: at least there is one... 17:44:28 GregorR: i think advertising Worcester sauce has got to be a challenge 17:45:24 ais523_|direct: your intuition about 100% probabilities was perhaps right 17:45:30 -!- Corun has joined. 17:45:37 .A = .B ^ C 17:45:59 i have no idea why that should set C to true with 100% probability 17:46:10 but it should, so that the operation would be symmetric 17:46:36 because A = .B ^ 1 will set A to 1%2 17:46:45 .A = .B ^ C should set C to 1 17:47:09 (.A and those are variables that are always true with 1%2 probability) 17:47:20 (1%2 being simply 50%) 17:48:01 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:48:32 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:49:45 A = .B ^ 1 will clearly do A = 1%2, because the truth table's true entries, with the constraint that C is true, are A=0,B=0,C=1; A=1,B=1,C=1, so A is equivalent to .B 17:49:57 which will just mean A = 1%2, after .B goes out of scope 17:50:25 but, i'm not actually sure that *is* a symmetric relation, well, actually i'm pretty sure it isn't. 17:51:56 so, basically, i'm not sure there's any way to "decrement" a variable, if we're representing number n as 1%2^n 17:52:12 just a way to add them together 17:52:46 it seems i still have some trouble seen how all this satting even works with probabilities 17:53:09 perhaps i should just try evaluating them, and see whether the whole operation even *makes sense* 17:53:17 because clearly my intuition fails me here 17:54:08 more generally, A = B ^ C, where B and C are known, multiplies together the probabilities of B and C, and makes A that; clear from both the semantics of probabilities, and the truth table 17:54:34 issue is this is not reversible, for some reason oerjan can probably tell me if i highlight him 17:54:48 * oerjan has been reading 17:54:55 i see 17:54:59 do you get my point at all? 17:55:18 i don't understand the basics 17:55:37 what exactly? 17:55:37 oklopol: the problem is that if something has less than 100% probability, there's nothing you can OR it with to make 100% except 1 17:55:50 and if you do that it doesn't depend on the initial variable 17:56:10 ais523_|direct: yeah but you don't have to just evaluate boolean expressions 17:56:10 detecting if something had exactly 50% probability would work I think, except that that really makes no obvious sense as an operation 17:56:16 oh, yes 17:56:25 you can reverse-assign, as in INTERCAL? 17:56:33 * oerjan assumes ais523_|direct understands this better than him 17:56:39 SAT is about "making the expression true" by making anything anything that hasn't been initialized yet 17:56:44 also, bus -> 17:57:09 or maybe not 17:57:12 btw, ais523_|direct is the account you /query me on if you don't want ehird to be able to spy 17:57:26 normally I go via ehird's bouncer, but it's down atm 17:58:31 so, intuitively, it seems that because A = B ^ C, where we don't know A, makes A the product of B and C, you'd think if you do A = B ^ C, where you don't know C, C would be made something that, when multiplied by B, becomes A 17:58:37 ais523_|direct: yes i'm aware of that 17:59:11 oklopol, ais523_|direct, oerjan: What are you talking about? I was busy for a while 17:59:16 asiekierka: noprob 17:59:24 oklopol: i am somewhat dubious on this, doesn't this assume that B and C are independent? 17:59:30 oklopol: that's what a reverse assignment is in INTERCAL 17:59:33 oerjan: yes, but they are 17:59:38 oerjan: I think noprob assumes that too 18:00:03 oerjan: all .X's are independent, and 0.5 initially 18:00:17 if i'm considering something a value, i'm also assuming it's independent of the things i'm doing calculations with 18:00:21 if there was another equation involving both of them, and some fourth variable... 18:00:40 argh 18:00:49 that's not what i meant 18:00:52 oerjan: what's your point? i mean, in this case, there *isn't* 18:00:58 ok then 18:00:59 Show me noprob specs, please 18:01:00 i'm sure you have a point, i just don't get it 18:01:29 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:01:31 asiekierka: they don't exist yet 18:03:05 And what's noprob about? 18:03:10 Also, i make DOBELA's talk page 18:03:21 Maybe you'll comment on something? 18:03:58 the problem is roughly that A = B ^ C, where C isn't set, doesn't find some value of C that when multiplied by B becomes A, because we're not actually doing multiplication, it's just the and happens to perform it for independent variables 18:04:05 there are other ways to satisfy that. 18:05:02 -!- Slereah has joined. 18:05:10 asiekierka: noprob is about 3-sat 18:05:18 but i'm talking about the wimpmode here 18:05:35 Hm. If i knew what 3-sat is, i MAY have found it interesting 18:05:36 the wimpmode is about satisfying boolean expressions with probabilities 18:05:46 #3-sat, probably 18:06:01 yes 18:06:22 good point, we should continue the conversation there 18:06:41 Added DOBELA to the Language list 18:07:58 umm... 18:08:19 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 18:08:21 hm? 18:08:50 asiekierka: just thinking out loud. 18:09:12 oklopol: er wait 18:09:25 that was _not_ meant to be a channel name 18:09:30 Also, why can't i join you? 18:09:32 oerjan: i know, it was a joke. 18:10:06 i remember your teachings. 18:10:43 oerjan: but, what was your point about the independence? 18:10:50 oerjan: Buy Worshr... Worchrshrshr ... buy the sauce you can't pronounce! (Clip of bottle slammed on a table) 18:11:12 I wonder if 0 and ENTER count as 2 commands 18:11:13 wooster sauce 18:11:14 or as just 1 18:11:58 oklopol: i thought you were assuming you could use ^ for multiplication even if they weren't. but i see you have thought about it. 18:12:15 oerjan: oh i see. 18:12:25 well yeah i'm just considering the simple case where they are independent 18:12:31 Oklopol: Can you give out Underload lessons for me, too? 18:12:36 i'm a bit familiar with the syntax 18:12:39 but, uh, nothing to do yet 18:12:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:13:05 asiekierka: it was ais523_|direct who showed *me* things about unlambda, not the other way 18:13:06 around 18:13:07 -!- ehird has joined. 18:13:23 * oerjan swats oklopol ----### 18:13:32 underload is _not_ unlambda 18:13:37 ... 18:13:44 -!- ais523_|direct has left (?). 18:13:45 why do i keep doing that 18:13:46 :| 18:13:55 WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP MAKING THE SAME MISTAKES 18:14:02 WHAT A BUNCH OF STINKING IDIOTS 18:14:11 BECAUSE YOU CAN ONLY THINK IN TWO-LETTER WORDS 18:14:19 OBVIOUSLY 18:14:22 rubbish pants 18:14:24 oklopol: I don't use unlambda, so well, duh 18:14:34 BECAUSE THEY WEAR CAPES 18:14:36 YOU RUINED MY RHYME 18:14:38 ASSHOLE 18:14:40 GO DIE >:( 18:14:42 ASIEKIERKA: PLEASE USE CAPS IN FUTURE 18:14:47 oerjan: when they are *not* independent, it's more complicated, of course, but getting something trivial like this to work might be helpful before that. 18:15:02 asiekierka: i meant underload. 18:15:07 ok 18:15:07 ...was it correct now? 18:15:17 OKAY, EHIRD, BUT EVERY WORD AFTER THIS IN CAPS IS MADE BY A CRYBABY AND SUCKS 18:15:20 as you can see now 18:15:25 oklopol: the quantum collapsed in the right direction this time 18:15:31 i meant 18:15:42 every sentence 18:15:42 And so 18:15:42 asiekierka: YOU'RE MEAN 18:15:42 . 18:15:46 now we can't use caps 18:15:46 asiekierka: rules only take effect if they're in the topic 18:15:47 you know that. 18:15:51 Uh 18:15:52 hahahahah 18:15:56 And so 18:15:58 you're a crybaby 18:15:59 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I hate how, no matter what concept of programming you follow, there's always a nasty corner :P | you can't use caps. 18:15:59 and suck 18:16:04 optbot! 18:16:04 but i said every word 18:16:09 where is optbot 18:16:11 muahahaha 18:16:17 you're PWNED 18:16:18 optbot, why hast thou forsaken us! 18:16:19 ehird: you have to restart it manually 18:16:22 ais523: yea :P 18:16:27 -!- optbot has joined. 18:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | with the most significant bit of the result being the AND of the most and least significant bits. 18:16:32 i hate you 18:16:40 that's about intercal 18:16:42 neither optbot nor thutubot is in the startup scripts 18:16:42 ais523: that's the idea 18:16:43 * oklopol knows 18:16:47 oklopol: yes, and I said it, almost certainly 18:16:47 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | with the most significant bit of the result being the AND of the most and least significant bits | type in caps or die | who changes the topic is a crybaby, except asiekierka. 18:16:53 optbot! 18:16:53 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | The definition for obscenity is fairly loose.. 18:17:01 ehird! 18:17:12 ok, so 18:17:15 optbot is a baby, technically, as are most bots 18:17:15 oklopol: DDoS Condition detected! 18:17:21 :D 18:17:26 ais523? 18:17:32 but a CRYBABY, though 18:17:36 asiekierka: yes? 18:17:40 optbot: you're a crybaby now, are you happy 18:17:40 asiekierka: every argument to EVERYTHING is a thunk 18:18:07 ais523: Could you please teach me underload? I know the commands, how to output text but not anything else 18:18:12 haskell haskell haskell 18:18:21 there's a lot of demand for learning underload atm, it seems 18:18:26 asiekierka: do you know how to do an infinite loop 18:18:31 maybe I should get oklopol to teach you that 18:18:35 (:^):^ 18:18:42 do you know why that works? 18:18:43 or (:*^):*^ 18:18:44 Yes 18:18:49 because it duplicates :^ 18:18:51 ais523: but he'll just ask asiekierka to ask you, and then... oh no 18:18:51 then it runs it 18:18:54 which duplicates :^ 18:18:57 which runs it 18:18:57 etc 18:18:57 etc 18:18:59 yes 18:19:04 what about a finite loop? 18:19:11 how would you print 64 copies of x, for instance? 18:19:26 Hmm, i don't know lambda/underload calculations yet 18:19:41 +ul ((x)S):*:*:*:*:*:*^ 18:19:41 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 18:19:46 oh, i see 18:19:52 (::::****):* ((x)S) ^ 18:19:56 (::::****):* ((x)S) ~^ 18:20:01 +ul (::::****):* ((x)S) ~^ 18:20:02 +ul (::::****):* ((x)S) ~^ 18:20:06 +ul (::::****):*((x)S)~^ 18:20:14 augh 18:20:15 +ul (::::****):*((x)S)~^^ 18:20:15 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 18:20:17 oh 18:20:18 wait 18:20:20 missing a trailing ^ 18:20:29 Ok 18:20:33 and you aren't allowed whitespace in Underload, probably I should change that at some point though 18:20:33 so, what do i need to learn 18:20:33 umm 18:20:38 going off for a second 18:20:38 why did i need that 18:20:45 oh, because just applying the number 18:20:48 doesn't actually print 18:20:53 just makes the code 18:20:54 to print 18:20:55 no, it just gives lots of copies of the code to print 18:21:03 yes, okay, right 18:21:03 then you need a second ^ to actually run it 18:21:12 +ul (Not even here?)S 18:21:12 Not even here? 18:21:23 oerjan: that isn't applying a number 18:21:32 Oki, i'm back 18:21:36 +ul ((Not even here?)S)(:*)^ 18:21:37 i may go off for a sec again too 18:21:40 is applying a number 18:21:43 and as you can see nothing happened 18:21:43 ais523: he meant whitespace 18:21:46 +ul ((Not even here?)S)(:*)^^ 18:21:46 Not even here?Not even here? 18:21:48 oerjan that is 18:21:57 oh, you're allowed whitespace if you don't try to run it 18:22:01 just not as a command 18:22:07 +ul (:*(Not even here?)S^)(:*)*:*^ 18:22:07 ...: out of stack! 18:22:15 just toying around 18:22:29 * ais523 wonders why there's a colon in that error message 18:22:50 oh 18:22:57 it means the : command was trying to run on an empty stack 18:22:59 +ul (::::****)((aS)S)~^^ 18:22:59 aSaSaSaSaS 18:23:12 I must check something 18:23:30 I must check what was the discarding command, again 18:23:41 ! 18:23:44 oh 18:23:47 discards the top stack element 18:23:52 Does S discard the text it outputs? 18:23:58 umm 18:24:00 decrementing 18:24:09 hm? 18:24:12 yeah 18:24:13 it does 18:24:18 at least that's what esowiki says 18:24:19 is it hard or trivial? 18:24:32 relatively hard, but not too long 18:24:39 don't spoil, i'll try 18:24:41 the trick is to start with the nonexistent number !!()() 18:24:50 +ul (:*(Looping... )S)^ 18:24:51 ...: out of stack! 18:24:51 and sorry, I spoiled slightly too quickly 18:24:53 hm? 18:24:54 :P 18:24:56 but I won't give away the rest 18:25:04 +ul (:*(Looping... )S):^ 18:25:04 Looping... 18:25:10 +ul (:*(Looping... )S^):^ 18:25:10 Looping... ...: out of stack! 18:25:13 ok 18:25:14 +ul (:(Looping... )S^):^ 18:25:15 Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... ...too much output! 18:25:16 ais523: spoiling is actually one of your things when it comes to teaching 18:25:17 yay 18:25:28 i mean, in my head 18:25:42 You don't concatenate, because it overflows the stack, but it still works. 18:26:02 asiekierka: what's the * for? 18:26:10 it's not at all obvious what you're trying to concatenat 18:26:12 *concatenate 18:26:24 OH 18:26:31 i get it i get it 18:26:32 the thing that's concatenating 18:26:33 * oklopol tries 18:26:35 so concatenate itself 18:26:36 basically 18:26:38 But now i see 18:26:40 ^ discards it 18:26:47 it has nothing to concat so it fails 18:26:48 yes 18:27:10 It duplicates at the beginning to have what to duplicate from 18:27:17 ok, i see 18:28:16 Now, tell me how do you use numbers in Underload, please. 18:29:25 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 18:29:34 +ul ()(:~(*)*:( )*S~^):^ 18:29:35 :~(*)*:( )*S~^* :~(*)*:( )*S~^** :~(*)*:( )*S~^*** :~(*)*:( )*S~^**** :~(*)*:( )*S~^***** :~(*)*:( )*S~^****** :~(*)*:( )*S~^******* :~(*)*:( )*S~^******** ...too much output! 18:29:40 what the 18:29:45 ah 18:29:55 that is some nice output 18:30:11 uhhh 18:30:21 +ul ()(~(*)*:( )*S~:^):^ 18:30:22 * ** *** **** ***** ****** ******* ******** ********* ********** *********** ************ ************* ************** *************** **************** ...too much output! 18:30:31 ugh, connection dropped 18:30:33 where was I? 18:30:37 gah, I missed it 18:30:39 Now, tell me how do you use numbers in Underload, please. 18:30:39 do I have to check logs, or will someone tell me what it was? 18:30:43 ah, a nice simple increment loop 18:30:45 presumably that was oklopol? 18:30:48 and oerjan did +ul ()(:~(*)*:( )*S~^):^ 18:30:49 asiekierka: ok 18:30:51 0 is !() 18:30:53 1 is the null string 18:30:54 yeah 18:30:55 2 is :* 18:30:56 2 is :* 18:30:57 3 is ::** 18:30:57 <- moi 18:30:59 4 is :::*** 18:31:00 3 is ::** 18:31:01 and so on 18:31:04 i see 18:31:05 and well done oerjan 18:31:10 i did know this, but couldn't recall it... quite 18:31:18 basically, 0 means "make 0 copies of the TOS" 18:31:23 1 means "make 1 copy of the TOS" 18:31:26 2 means "make 2 copies of the TOS" 18:31:28 and so on 18:31:30 Maybe we'll talk by msg 18:31:34 so we don't clutter up the channel 18:31:43 Except if you WANT TO chat here 18:33:44 why not, it's definitely on topic 18:34:48 +ul (*)(~:*:( )*S~:^):^ 18:34:49 ** **** ******** **************** ******************************** **************************************************************** ...too much output! 18:35:11 hmph 18:35:32 oerjan: what were you trying to do? 18:35:46 powers of two, but missed the initial * 18:36:45 +ul (*)(~:( )*S:*~:^):^ 18:36:46 * ** **** ******** **************** ******************************** **************************************************************** ...too much output! 18:39:12 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:39:32 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:40:21 Fairly simple: 18:40:22 +ul (:::***)(x)~^ 18:40:31 oh, right 18:40:33 +ul (:::***)(x)~^S 18:40:33 xxxx 18:40:35 asiekierka: that'll need an output command somewhere 18:40:40 Yay, so outputting works 18:40:45 I'll test stuff here 18:40:50 CONTEST: OKLOPOL vs. ASIEKIERKA 18:40:54 TOPIC: SUBTRACTION IN UNDERLOAD 18:40:56 TIME: INFINITE 18:41:01 WINNER: WHO FINISHES IT FIRST! 18:42:58 +ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^ 18:42:59 */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/******************************************************* ...too much output! 18:43:06 (pasted) 18:43:09 oerjan: didn't you just copy that from the wiki? 18:43:19 he did 18:43:21 as he said 18:43:50 sometimes copying gets the final newline even when it doesn't look that way 18:43:54 yes, typing lag 18:46:55 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:47:39 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:50:50 IITT'S HHAARRDD!!! 18:53:58 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:57:43 +ul (?)(:)~(*)**S 18:57:43 :?* 18:58:02 oerjan: implementing an increment? 18:58:07 yeah 18:58:08 owww, my head hurts 18:58:09 a lot 18:58:16 probably due to the subtracthinking 18:59:50 -!- olsner has joined. 19:01:31 +ul (:*)((:)~*(*)*:(x)~S):^ 19:01:31 :(:)~*(*)*:(x)~S* 19:01:52 What? 19:02:01 hm 19:02:11 +ul (:*)((:)~*(*)*:(x)~^S^):^ 19:02:37 +ul (x)S 19:02:37 x 19:02:45 +ul (:*)((:)~*(*)*:(x)~^S(/)S^):^ 19:02:55 +ul (:*)(~(:)~*(*)*:(x)~^S~:^):^ 19:02:56 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output! 19:03:03 +ul (:*)(~(:)~*(*)*:(x)~^S(/)S~:^):^ 19:03:03 xxx/xxxx/xxxxx/xxxxxx/xxxxxxx/xxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output! 19:03:06 you were almost right 19:03:37 Missed it by one char? 19:03:39 the problem with what you were doing is that the copy of the function ended up on top of your counter 19:03:43 rather than beneath 19:03:46 so I added a couple of ~ 19:03:56 to put the copy of the function below the counter during the body of the loop 19:04:01 and back on top again to reloop at the end 19:04:05 so missed it by 2 chars 19:04:08 ok 19:04:15 But i was this close 19:04:23 So i'm beginning grasping underload, it seems 19:04:42 This will be only testing 19:04:51 +ul (::**)*(x)~^S 19:04:52 ...^ out of stack! 19:05:00 don't help me now, ais523 19:05:01 ...please 19:05:16 +ul (::**):*(x)~^S 19:05:16 xxxxxxxxx 19:05:17 ok, I'll shut up for a bit 19:05:28 Ok, so i have an exponentator 19:05:45 +ul (::**):*(x)~*S 19:05:45 x::**::** 19:05:50 uh, nope, wrong 19:06:01 +ul (::**)(:*)*(x)~^s 19:06:02 +ul (::**)(:*)*(x)~^S 19:06:03 xxxxxx 19:06:10 Ok, and this is a multiplicator 19:06:13 written all by myself 19:06:29 and now an additor 19:07:00 +ul (::**)(:)~*(*)~(x)~^S 19:07:00 xxx 19:07:06 nope, not yet 19:07:09 lemme think 19:07:32 +ul (::**)(:)~*(*)*(x)~^S 19:07:32 xxxx 19:07:43 Ok, that's adding 3 with 2, but it's 3+1 then 19:08:04 +ul (::**)(:::)~*(***)*(x)~^S 19:08:04 xxxxxx 19:08:11 and that's 3+4, but here, it's 3+3 19:08:15 Underload is that weird. 19:08:25 asiekierka: ::: is not a number 19:08:34 ah wait 19:08:39 you've split the ::: from the ***? 19:08:51 yes 19:08:58 I can fix it by adding : and * again 19:09:00 so i will 19:09:22 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:09:41 +ul (::::****)()~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!)~^(x)~^^ 19:09:42 ...* out of stack! 19:09:46 :) 19:09:54 okay so that wasn't right 19:10:06 and no help or i shall swat 19:10:07 :P 19:10:25 (i haven't been figuring it out this long, was watching friends) 19:10:33 (more like half a minute) 19:10:42 do your friends approve of your watching? 19:10:51 they love it 19:11:21 well then 19:12:56 working on the additor 19:13:10 +ul (::**)(:::)~*(***)*(this stops the editing part)!(:)~*(*)*(x)~^S 19:13:10 xxxxxxx 19:13:12 ok 19:13:14 now it works 19:13:15 yaay 19:13:53 Does anyone need help with grasping it? 19:13:59 I think I know how it works 19:14:01 +ul (::::****)()~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!)~***(x)~^^ 19:14:02 ...^ out of stack! 19:14:20 basically, you can remove(textblah)! 19:14:31 +ul (::**)(:::)~*(***)*(:)~*(*)*(x)~^S 19:14:32 xxxxxxx 19:14:32 asiekierka: yes, that's used for comments 19:14:38 yeah 19:14:40 Since it's a no-op 19:14:41 asiekierka: ais523 invented underload 19:14:41 :-P 19:14:45 also it's common to use commented-out newlines 19:14:50 in long programs 19:14:58 oh wait 19:15:03 ais523: wow 19:15:14 you created it!? 19:15:15 yes 19:15:19 awesome 19:15:26 Now i see why you know every thing about it 19:15:28 every aspect 19:16:03 I only hate one thing about Underload: It isn't sufficent to make an IRCbot! 19:16:38 okay i officially suck at this. i actually had a large semantical error in that prog. 19:16:48 but, i have it now, except not yet on code 19:17:02 You should make underload, but with input 19:17:17 But you don't have ways to process in... too much complication! 19:17:21 wait 19:17:22 i mean 19:17:27 But you don't have ways to process inp ...too much complication! 19:17:39 indeed 19:17:58 except if you give input like 19:18:29 ::::::****** ::** :* ::::**** ::** !() ::::::::******** ::** ::::**** :* 19:18:45 +ul (::::****):(:)~^(!())*~(*)~^*(xS)~^^ 19:18:46 which is ve ...too much complication! 19:19:20 Error: Unrecognized Command in the debugger 19:19:29 SxSxSxSxS is in the Program 19:19:35 so i think it couldn't process "x" 19:19:41 +ul (::::****):(:)~^(!())*~(*)~^*((x)S)~^^ 19:19:42 xxxxx 19:19:46 ... :P 19:19:56 and this is what 19:20:07 since it basically does nothing in something 19:20:08 NiS! 19:20:12 btw, I also wrote both the debugger, and Thutubot 19:20:42 +ul (::::****):(:)~^(!())*~(*)~^*S 19:20:42 :::::!()***** 19:20:45 holy--- *faints* 19:21:01 ais523, i'm making a new religion, just for you 19:21:07 oklopol: in other words, 5, just like your input was 19:21:08 +ul (*)(::::****)^ 19:21:14 ais523: whoops. 19:21:16 okay 19:21:19 +ul (::::****):(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*S 19:21:20 :::::!!()()***** 19:21:29 +ul (::::****):(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*(x)~^S 19:21:29 xxxx 19:21:35 eeehhh 19:21:39 eehhhheehh 19:21:46 eeehhewehhehehehhe *faints. TWICE* 19:21:47 * asiekierka dies 19:21:50 * asiekierka dies 19:21:52 * asiekierka explodes 19:21:55 * asiekierka bongs 19:22:01 * asiekierka trolls 19:22:04 * asiekierka jumps 19:22:08 * asiekierka kills oklopol 19:22:11 * oerjan swats asiekierka back to the ground ----### 19:22:28 +ul (not like it'd execute, but hey)S----### 19:22:28 not like it'd execute, but hey 19:22:42 +ul (/me tests something)S----### 19:22:42 /me tests something 19:22:49 TT__TT 19:22:57 +ul (ACTION tests something)S----### 19:22:57 ACTION tests something 19:22:57 asiekierka: considering how much i've played with esolangs, it would've been quite weird if you had beaten me imo 19:23:00 oklopol: is that 5-1 you just did? 19:23:05 asiekierka: impossible 19:23:06 I think it is 19:23:07 asiekierka: yes 19:23:08 ais523: yes, he did 19:23:16 +ul (ACTION tests something)S 19:23:17 * thutubot tests something 19:23:23 +ul (::::****)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)^(x)~^S 19:23:23 xxxx 19:23:41 +ul (QUIT)S 19:23:45 uh 19:23:48 +ul (PART)S 19:23:50 +ul (PART #esoteric)S 19:23:54 +ul (::::::******)(:::***)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^(x)~^S 19:23:55 xxx 19:23:56 asiekierka: QUIT isn't a CTCP 19:24:00 +ul (::::::******)(::::***)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^(x)~^S 19:24:10 +ul (JOIN #esoteic)S 19:24:12 nope 19:24:26 +ul (VERSION)S 19:24:31 +ul (PING)S 19:24:32 asiekierka: oh, right, that actually is possible :P 19:24:36 +ul (::::::******)(::::****)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^(x)~^S 19:24:37 xx 19:24:44 ok, enough 19:24:45 +ul (:::::::::*********)(::::****)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^(x)~^S 19:24:45 xxxxx 19:24:59 oklopol: 10-5=5? 19:25:01 subtraction, although that's not really a feat 19:25:04 I think you officially win that contest 19:25:05 yes 19:25:10 but i quit 19:25:15 25 minutes before you did it 19:25:19 my brain hurted 19:25:21 of all this 19:25:33 so even if you did fail 19:25:38 now, the way I did divmod in my base-10 program was utterly different from that 19:25:39 you still win 19:25:43 would have won* 19:25:59 also you had MORE TIME 19:26:09 -!- oerjan has quit ("Now bus"). 19:26:16 Ok 19:26:20 I officially suck at Underload 19:26:22 or do i not 19:27:06 i had more time? 19:27:09 -!- Slereah has joined. 19:27:13 when did you start 19:27:16 how many minutes ago 19:27:16 or hours 19:27:21 err, 5 past nine 19:27:30 i have a different timezone 19:27:31 so 19:27:37 how many hours ago 19:27:50 according to the log, took me about 15 minutes to get it 19:27:52 BONUS POINTS: calculate it your subtraction method 19:27:56 but i wasn't really trying that hard 19:28:02 I tried too hard 19:28:05 started a hour ago 19:28:06 and failed 19:28:43 I wonder if you can code something in DOBELA 19:28:54 something slightly interesting 19:28:58 I coded CAT and HELLO so far 19:29:04 to show how DOBELA works a bit more 19:29:12 all i can think atm is noprob 19:29:21 and underload 19:29:23 and how fucking annoyingly ironic the name is 19:29:28 oerjan: i hate you 19:29:28 also, what about ais523? 19:29:45 asiekierka: what about me? 19:29:52 y-y-yy-yes 19:29:58 what about you? can you code something in DOBELA 19:30:34 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:30:56 * oklopol wants someone to tell him the truth about noprob 19:31:57 noprob(lem with making this hard as hell)? 19:33:32 Hm. I don't know if my esolang can calculate the Fibonacci sequence _easily_ 19:33:43 hmm 19:33:51 fibs in underload, let's try that 19:34:18 +ul (::::****)(x)~^S 19:34:19 xxxxx 19:34:26 oklopol: it was done 19:34:41 +ul (::::****)((:)~*(*)*)(x)~^S 19:34:42 :x* 19:34:45 You basically have an addition loop (I did it) only different 19:34:47 +ul (::::****)((:)~*(*)*)^(x)~^S 19:34:48 xxxxxx 19:34:59 asiekierka: you think i care whether it was done? :D 19:35:06 oh 19:35:10 you did fibonacci? 19:35:11 can i see 19:35:22 nope 19:35:25 I didn't do fibonacci 19:35:28 i said i did an addition loop 19:35:36 Which is quite a base to fibas 19:35:38 fibs* 19:35:46 well, you did increment in a loop 19:35:48 +ul (::::****)(:::***)(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)^(x)~^S 19:35:48 xxxxxxxxx 19:35:49 which isn't quite the same thing 19:36:01 You can modify the increment value, that's one 19:36:16 and, oh well 19:36:18 only if you split the : from the *, which is possible but non-trivial 19:36:23 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:37:08 wait a second 19:37:11 you can do it!? 19:37:44 yes 19:37:52 n is represented by n-1 :s and n-1 *s 19:37:53 how? 19:37:56 so subtract 1 from n 19:38:07 then use n to multiply up a : and a * 19:38:17 just like it's used to multiply up xs in the standard unary output routine 19:38:53 Underload is a bit too hard for me 19:38:54 actually 19:39:02 I'll stick to... uh oh... DOBELA 19:39:06 But this wouldn't be useful 19:39:20 only because no-one cares about DOBELA programs 19:39:30 asiekierka: no one cares about most of things. 19:39:41 but i mean no-one 19:39:46 as in 19:39:48 NOBODY 19:39:56 maybe ais523, but i doubt it 19:40:40 if you really care whether people care about everything you do, i suggest you either become famous, or find a good psychiatrist 19:40:40 hmm... I wonder if I care about most of things 19:40:45 it probably depends on what things are 19:40:57 Oklopol: Nope, but this is my first esolang 19:41:08 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:41:16 asiekierka: well there's been more discussion than on many languages. 19:41:22 ehird doesn't seem to believe that random people stop me in the street and say hello 19:41:25 but it happened this morning 19:41:37 what discussion 19:41:52 asiekierka: people have read the spec, and talked about it 19:41:58 yes 19:42:02 i implemented it 19:42:06 five times. 19:42:14 what did you implement 19:42:16 but for instance, i doubt anyone even knows what my contribution to the wiki is 19:42:19 dobela 19:42:26 prove it 19:42:35 or you're a liar 19:43:01 ehird? 19:43:04 asiekierka: are you religious? if so, you just called yourself a liar 19:43:13 * ehird disappears in a puff of logic. 19:43:35 ok 19:43:37 you're not a liar 19:43:38 :P 19:43:42 but you STILL didn't prove it 19:44:07 * asiekierka takes a spell book and makes ehird reappear 19:44:13 Ehahaehirda 19:46:36 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:47:04 EHIR 19:47:05 EHIRD 19:47:20 You and your stupid excuses! Nngh! 19:47:30 * asiekierka notes: excessive excuser, ehird 19:47:48 * asiekierka adds: famous esolang guy, ais523 19:48:02 * asiekierka adds (in) before "famous" in ais523's entry 19:49:25 -!- GiveMeMony has joined. 19:51:17 someone get ehird here! 19:51:23 Or i will kill him 19:52:48 ehird is here 19:52:52 just not saying things 19:53:02 e's active in at least one other Freenode channel 19:53:21 -!- M0ny has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:54:19 uh 19:54:20 he isn't anywhere else 19:54:57 ais523: a is ending execution, and stack is " <1> <2> (TOS)", is there any way to get up from there? 19:55:07 asiekierka: channels can be +s'd 19:55:07 asiekierka: there are a lot of secret channels on Freenode 19:55:14 because channels are secret by default 19:55:15 didn't you read the rfc ;) 19:55:19 and most people never bother to change that 19:55:27 yes i know 19:55:28 oklopol: yes, there is 19:55:37 a~a will change <1> <2> into (<2>)(<1>) 19:55:38 i can't find a way :| 19:55:41 yes 19:55:44 then * will give you ((<2>)(<1>)) 19:55:51 you can swap that stack element below 19:56:01 and later on, ^ will split (<2>)(<1>) back into <2> <1> 19:56:36 i had almost exactly that 19:56:45 hmmhmm 19:58:23 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:58:42 ais523: ah, now i get it 19:58:44 -!- Slereah has joined. 19:59:12 the idea is just to lift them in the string, in which case you can append them to either end 20:00:01 or do i get it. 20:00:03 hmm 20:00:05 :D 20:00:44 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 20:01:02 oklopol: that sounds vaguely like how it's done, yes 20:01:03 -!- GiveMeMony has changed nick to M0ny. 20:01:04 i mean 20:01:32 <1> <2> should be turned to <1> <2> 20:01:35 so 20:01:42 i first lift 1 and 2 into a string 20:01:52 and i get (<1> <2>) 20:01:58 then, i swap? 20:02:06 (<1> <2>) 20:02:35 then, i can either duplicate or append 20:02:39 the problem is i cannot do both 20:02:48 because if i append, i lose 20:03:06 and if i duplicate, i lose the ability to use (<1> <2>) 20:03:09 ah, there is a solution, let me try to remember what it is 20:03:51 remembering is inelegant when it comes to programming, mister :D 20:03:52 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:03:56 yes 20:03:58 or work it out 20:04:02 yeah 20:04:12 -!- asiekierka has joined. 20:04:38 ais523: (<1> <2>) (~^)+ 20:04:44 and then ^ 20:04:56 the solution is you can modify the thing you recurse to 20:04:59 and it can do the swap 20:05:08 ah yes, that's what it is 20:05:23 I've done that loads of times before, for some reason I forgot about it though 20:05:34 and you probably mean something other than + there 20:05:43 i mean concatenation 20:06:09 +ul (this is param 1)(this is param 2)(:S~:S~a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^ 20:06:10 this is param 2this is param 1 ...: out of stack! 20:06:13 :P 20:06:22 +ul (:S~:S~a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)(this is param 1)(this is param 2)(:S~:S~a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^ 20:06:23 this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1 ...too much output! 20:11:39 +ul (:Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)(a)(b)(:Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^ 20:11:40 baababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababa ...too much output! 20:11:52 +ul (:Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)(a)(b)(:S( )Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^ 20:11:53 b aababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababa ...too much output! 20:11:56 :P 20:11:59 what does this doo? 20:12:05 +ul (:S( )Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)(a)(b)(:S( )Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^ 20:12:06 b a ab aba abaab abaababa abaababaabaab abaababaabaababaababa abaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaab abaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababa abaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaab abaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababa ...too much output! 20:12:12 just fibonacci 20:12:13 asiekierka: floods the channel, I think 20:12:15 It makes a sheep-like sound. 20:12:22 ah, I see 20:12:29 fibonnaci, but with two different characters 20:12:32 why a and b? 20:12:42 asiekierka: clearer code that way 20:13:17 because i cannot name the addition block, i would have to have that in the code, or somewhere in the stack, both would make it fairly cluttery 20:13:41 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 20:13:52 not that that matters, just thought in this case it's sufficient to make it work conceptually 20:15:54 +ul (:S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)()()(:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^ 20:15:55 x ()() 20:15:56 ... 20:16:00 +ul (:S( )Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)(a)(a)(:S( )Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^ 20:16:01 a a aa aaa aaaaa aaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ...too much output! 20:16:05 :) 20:16:06 +ul (:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)()()(:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^ 20:16:06 x x 20:16:09 ... 20:16:42 +ul (:^):^ 20:16:43 i didn't actually have any intermediate form, so it's not completely trivial to change the concatenation function 20:16:43 ...out of time! 20:16:51 i can't actually *read* underload. 20:17:07 ^show 20:17:07 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp oko cho choo 20:17:12 ^oko 20:17:15 ^oko o 20:17:15 ^def rot26 ,[.,] 20:17:18 ^show oko 20:17:21 ...out of time! 20:17:21 Usage: ^def 20:17:21 >,[>,]<[<]>[>[.>]<[<]>] 20:17:25 +ul (:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)()()(:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)^~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^ 20:17:25 x x xx 20:17:30 :D 20:17:34 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S 20:17:35 ^rot26 +ul (hi!)S 20:17:40 +ul (:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)^~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)()()(:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)^~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^ 20:17:42 x x xx xxx xxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output! 20:17:49 naaagh 20:17:54 ^rot26 +ul (hi!)S 20:17:58 ^rot26 aaa 20:18:02 ^show rot26 20:18:04 ^show 20:18:05 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp oko cho choo 20:18:11 fungot seems lagged atm 20:18:11 ais523: that's the point 20:18:14 try not bothering it for a while 20:18:14 ^def rot26 bf ,[.,] 20:18:15 Defined. 20:18:21 maybe not 20:18:22 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S 20:18:22 ^rot26 +ul (hi!)S 20:18:22 +ul (hi!)S 20:18:22 hi! 20:18:34 +ul (^rot26 +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S)S 20:18:34 ^rot26 +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S 20:18:34 +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S 20:18:35 +ul (^rot26 +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S 20:18:47 yeah, i did something wrong 20:19:09 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:19:10 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S 20:19:10 ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S 20:19:11 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S 20:19:11 ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S 20:19:11 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S 20:19:12 ^rot26 +ul (hi!)S 20:19:12 +ul (hi!)S 20:19:12 hi! 20:19:17 Wow 20:19:46 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S)S)S 20:19:46 ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S)S 20:19:47 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S)S 20:19:47 ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S 20:19:47 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S 20:19:48 ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S 20:19:48 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S 20:19:48 ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S 20:19:48 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S 20:19:49 ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S 20:19:49 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S 20:19:49 ^rot26 +ul (hi!)S 20:19:50 +ul (hi!)S 20:19:50 hi! 20:19:57 -!- Slereah has joined. 20:19:58 Neat 20:20:16 D: 20:20:20 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Success). 20:20:20 +ul (^rot26 +ul (:*))S(:*)^ 20:20:20 ^rot26 +ul (:*) ...: out of stack! 20:20:20 +ul (:*) ...: out of stack! 20:20:21 RAAAAAAAAAAAGE 20:20:30 ebbeh 20:20:39 ^rot13 ebbeh 20:20:39 rooru 20:20:44 ^rot13 ebbeh 20:20:45 rooru 20:20:47 rooru? 20:20:49 rootu? 20:20:52 uroot 20:20:53 ur root 20:22:12 CONTEST: Write an infinite loop between fungot and thutubot! 20:22:12 asiekierka: stalin and larceny used some weird syntax error in it, but the 20:22:15 WINNER: Whoever does it first 20:22:21 asiekierka: I've done that before 20:22:24 so I win already 20:22:31 in fact, I did a multi-bot infinite loop 20:22:33 do it agian 20:22:37 again* 20:22:37 then 20:22:38 fungot, thutubot and CO2Bot looped 20:22:39 ais523: lots of editors have fully rebindable keys around. i just have to pick *some* ordering for the indices anyway 20:22:45 and optbot said something every time round 20:22:45 ais523: Look at that incredible string at the end. 20:22:55 do fungot&optbot&thutubot 20:22:56 asiekierka: thanks for the advice. thank you very much 20:22:56 asiekierka: That's what my "java" is, but apparently the problem was the .class was compiled with sun-jdk-javac. 20:22:58 see you 20:23:27 asiekierka: I don't like infinite loops because someone has to stop them 20:23:44 which means quitting thutubot, normally 20:23:49 and then I'd have to restart it, which is a pain 20:23:50 You can just stop execution on thutubotter 20:23:58 make a .sh to do it 20:24:00 :) 20:24:00 it's on a different server 20:24:05 i like competitions, i wish someone who was good at esolangs challenged me occasionally. 20:24:16 so do it, oklopol 20:24:19 i'd like to see results 20:24:19 oklopol: maybe I should have an esolang contest with you sometime 20:24:20 do what? 20:24:24 not right now, though, I'm busy 20:24:39 do fungot&optbot&thutubot 20:24:39 asiekierka: I know. I read it. I'm a Perl enthusiast, sorry. 20:24:39 asiekierka: a checkpoint image, basically. 20:24:42 infinite loop between them 20:24:55 wait 20:25:05 i'm fairly busy too, millions of pages to read 20:25:09 ^rot26 optbot 20:25:09 optbot 20:25:09 asiekierka: the program would then be first => print "Hello world!" 20:25:10 fungot: (Python is pretty crappy too) 20:25:10 optbot: and opencroquet too. you probably simply want to use 20:25:10 fungot: they're obviously completely different; one is about numbers, and the other is about numbers /and/ symbols 20:25:11 optbot: considering how one keeps seeing it in places if it will be 20:25:11 fungot: !bf ++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>+++>++++++<<<<-]>++.>+++.+++++++..+++.>++.------------.>+++.<<.+++.------.--------.>+. 20:25:11 optbot: there's a second complete set of modern apis and features that toys like python will have the money 20:25:13 fungot: ooooh burn 20:25:13 optbot: mit has ridiculously long hostnames, even respectable people; the part before 20:25:13 fungot: ah 20:25:16 -!- Judofyr has quit. 20:25:25 and? 20:25:35 oh 20:25:43 fungot has an anti-flood limit 20:25:44 asiekierka: i find that my thingy is too slow to me 20:25:44 brb 20:35:14 To get a smaller Wikipedia talk-page sample for fungot training, I decided to take every talk page whose title's crc32 checksum is divisible by 256. 20:35:15 fizzie: poof! there go my weekends :) 20:35:37 wow... that was really insightful in context 20:35:44 Yes. 20:35:56 :P 20:35:59 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Connection timed out). 20:36:12 The first five pages it picked up were 'Aland Islands', 'Ark of the Covenant', 'Commutator', 'Distilling' and 'Feminist Spirituality'. 20:36:33 Commutator D: 20:36:44 [x,y] = xy - yx D: 20:37:04 -!- M0ny has quit ("Hum... Hum..."). 20:37:11 Commutator is the only page out of those five that I remember having visited. (And that was very recently.) 20:38:23 I need to do something to the MediaWiki markup before using those dumped-out pages, though. 20:39:31 Assuming the pages whose crc&0xff==0 are a representative sample, I should get something like 20 megs of wiki-text out of it. That's a nice little breakfast for fungot. 20:39:32 fizzie: you could have 20:44:09 back 20:44:45 fizzie: I must make a bot having all of Wikipedia 20:44:50 where can you download the wikipedia 20:46:02 http://download.wikimedia.org/ -- though it's a bit big. 20:46:14 Around 8 gigabytes as a bzip2'd XML-dump. 20:46:43 Okay, the archive without user and talk pages is a bit smaller. 20:47:17 Ok, if I ever touch MEGAHAL again 20:47:23 I'm implementing it into a robot-like thing 20:47:30 hooking up a CPU, an old speech synthesis thing 20:47:32 and stuff 20:47:41 To make the worst conversation robot EVER. 20:47:50 Mainly because it outsmarts you 20:48:33 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:49:31 -!- asiekierka has joined. 20:49:59 but no, 8 GB? 20:50:09 even with the 08-07-28 version, 7,3GB? 20:51:15 Ouch, my robot thing will really need a fast hard drive 20:51:22 It will need to select a random line 20:51:32 from quadrillions of such 20:51:37 This calls for 128-bit counters? 20:52:06 Or is there a small conversation-oriented database for bots&such 20:52:08 64 bits is very much enough to work as offsets into a 7.3-gigabyte file. Although it's 7.3 gigs compressed. 20:52:19 but as in 20:52:20 In any case, if you just want the articles, it's only 3.9 gigabytes. 20:52:21 unpacked 20:52:31 which can be up to 140gigs or so 20:52:41 I'd need a gigantic hard drive 20:52:47 that will be split into 2 parts 20:52:49 Talk parts 20:52:53 and Article parts 20:53:05 or not 20:53:07 They'll be interleaved 20:53:14 Or wait 20:53:24 is there a special conversation database for bots? 20:53:40 something like up to 250mb unpacked 20:53:47 so it's a lot 20:53:49 but not too much 20:54:12 If you mean just generic text that can be picked from, I've tried quite a lot of sources in fungot, but so far nothing has worked as well as just IRC logs. 20:54:13 fizzie: many thread systems in scheme somewhere? at least it's more interesting make-foo in pure-fp :) 20:54:33 What about... usenet? 20:54:45 usenet and IRC 20:54:54 that would give about the same amount as wikipedia's talk pages 20:54:58 but much, MUCH better. :) 20:55:02 I don't have a handy usenet archive, but I guess selected groups might work reasonably well. 20:55:13 the stupidiest ones 20:55:17 like political 20:55:29 I tried using a thousand transcribed ten-minute telephone conversations, but that wasn't terribly interesting. 20:55:42 Hmm, yes 20:55:48 but you can't download the whole Usen--- 20:55:48 wait 20:55:57 Google has the whole usenet mirrored... OR DO THEY 20:56:28 And if you feed the bot books (I've tried a couple of authors) it just speaks like it's reading a book, not like it's speaking. 20:57:06 I am quite certain this "1/256th of Wikipedia talk pages" experiment will be utterly uninteresting too, but who knows. 20:58:12 i'll feed him... oh! 20:58:13 YOUTUBE COMMENTS 20:58:16 har har haaarrr 20:58:39 That's not really a new idea. 20:58:41 also, what bot system are you using? 20:58:44 MegaHal? 20:59:01 Er, it's just fungot. Completely homegrown, completely without any trace of intelligence. 20:59:01 fizzie: i think so 20:59:13 See, even the bot admits it. 21:01:52 I've probably explained most of fungot's insides on the channel -- the stuff's in the logs, but it's not very interesting. 21:01:56 It's written in befunge. 21:02:40 To be completely honest, most of the hard work in the babbling is done with boring "real" programming languages. 21:05:34 Heh, it just dumped out "Creation science/Archive 8". I don't envy the bot who's going to have to read all that. 21:07:53 -!- Judofyr has joined. 21:23:30 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:32:57 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 21:46:47 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:50:57 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 21:51:14 ais523, there? 21:51:19 yes 21:51:51 ais523, As a native speaker, what would you call it when you wonder if a library can order a book they don't have in stock? 21:51:59 I'm planning this for semaphores in ATHR 21:52:10 "interlibrary loan" 21:52:19 is the common name for when you ask one library to borrow from another 21:52:30 ais523, ah, what if they don't get it from another, but order it from a publisher, say if it is a new one? 21:52:50 "interlibrary loan" could work too, and probably be better 21:52:57 I don't know if there's a single word, you'd be requesting them to order a book, pretty much 21:53:05 and I don't think if that abbreviates to one word 21:53:25 however you will need to set it an advance, to set how many books there are in stock, before using that book 21:53:32 so I need some good name for that 21:54:53 also I think I solved the problem of funge space update, not sure how effective it is hm 21:55:23 efficient* 21:55:25 as well 21:55:37 funge space bounds update* 21:56:01 You can ask the library to make a purchase order for the book. Although usually it's not the customer of the library who can specify how many books they will stock on their shelves. :p 21:57:03 * Each thread keeps its own copy of bounds. * On write outside current bounds (for a thread), send an async update bounds message to all other threads, and to funge-space thread. 21:57:04 Actually the title of the form us normal people can fill is "acquisition suggestion form". 21:57:35 http://lib.tkk.fi/en/services/remote/wwwforms/acquisition_suggestion.html -- doesn't seem to contain a field for "amount of books", though. 21:57:45 hrrm 21:58:10 fizzie, well having several books in stock would be a neat way to integrate semaphores with it 21:58:23 several copies* 21:58:36 Semaphores? 21:58:41 In wot? 21:58:54 Slereah, in the library mutex paradigm 21:58:59 What is this 21:59:14 a mutex is called a book, you borrow it to lock it, return it to unlock it 21:59:24 used for ATHR 21:59:36 which is a funge fingerprint for *async* threads 21:59:44 which I'm speccing and implementing 22:02:09 Well, I think it's reasonable if the metaphorical semantics of your instructions are "ask the library to get N copies of book K"; after all, if there's an out-of-money, I mean, out-of-memory situation they might not concede your request. 22:02:25 You can probably pick the exact words depending on what sort of characters you have still free. 22:02:28 fizzie, heh 22:03:27 BCFGINPQRSTW are used 22:05:32 ADEHJKLMOUVXYZ, then... well, O for 'order books' is one possibility. Or that A for 'Acquisition request/suggestion' like they seem to be calling it in our University library. 22:10:07 hm thanks 22:39:24 night, will work on it tomorrow (I hope) 22:44:55 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:01:31 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:02:07 if things start too loose, it's probably obscene 23:02:17 *to/too 23:04:17 oerjan: i hate you 23:04:24 i'm cursed, i tell you, cursed 23:08:16 -!- hakware has joined. 23:42:34 -!- hakware has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:48:29 -!- hakware has joined. 2008-10-23: 00:08:52 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:09:04 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 00:14:44 -!- hakware has changed nick to ENKI-][. 00:16:25 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Heh... I'm ganna win this one.. 03:35:05 -!- immibis has joined. 04:04:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 05:18:14 -!- ab5tract has joined. 05:50:22 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 06:16:25 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | isn't thaat. 06:24:57 -!- Judofyr has quit. 06:37:04 immibis: You were asking about setting the Funge-98 storage offset to an arbitrary value? 0{02-u0}$$ -- it uses 'u' to push an arbitrary address for } to pop off; the final $$ gets rid of the pos+delta vector pushed by {. 06:50:06 -!- asiekierka has joined. 06:50:16 Hi, anybody here? 06:50:20 fungot: are you intelligent? 06:50:20 asiekierka: that part of the def-bf reference implementation, too 06:50:29 fungot: No, no definitions, are you intelligent? 06:50:29 asiekierka: that's not a good day for house, this is even trickier 06:50:34 oh 06:50:42 so, fungot, intelligence is tricky for you? 06:50:42 asiekierka: of course people should prefer fnord software. they should've used gmp 06:50:59 fungot, intelligence is fnord software? and gmp? 06:50:59 asiekierka: ( ( apply xs) ( length fnord)) 06:51:06 * asiekierka dies of stupidity 06:51:32 Let's clog cmeme! 06:52:37 hackles - les hack, hels ack!, hak lecs, 06:53:41 hal c(h)eks? 06:53:46 hal checks? 06:58:34 * asiekierka dies twice 06:58:44 * asiekierka dies infinity times until i say "wakeup time" 07:03:57 iiıiiii 07:04:57 * asiekierka wakeup times 07:04:58 Hi 07:11:05 [18:51] Let's clog cmeme! +>[->+>+<<]+>>[<<->>[-]]<<[>+<-]>[-<+>]<<<<-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<[-]]]]]]]]]]<[->+<]>+>[-<+>]>>]<<<] 22:38:35 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 42949672 ... 22:38:45 I suck at the brainfuck; that's way longer than it really should. 22:39:13 http://blog.wired.com/music/2008/10/dr-pepper-to-ma.html Awesome! 22:56:10 fizzie: what algo? 22:57:22 Er, it just keeps the decimal digits on the tape; goes from the most significant end to the least significant printing them out; and then does a *2 operation on its way back. 22:57:26 i'd prolly store the number reversed on the array, and each cycle, multiply all cells by two, then do carries, then print with 48 added 22:57:38 how do you *2? 22:58:05 It's that mostly -[>++<-[>++<-[... -looking part. 22:58:43 it's pretty, but i'd probably have to manually execute it for a while to be able to understand it. 22:58:49 Except that the carry-setting part is a bit overcomplicated since it needs to make the number longer. 22:58:56 ah 22:59:02 that's why i'd've stored it reversed 22:59:54 -!- ais523|mibbit has joined. 22:59:55 hi ais523|mibbit 23:00:02 +ul (test)S 23:00:02 test 23:00:07 It is reversed, but I keep track of where the number ends by using a 1 to store a 0 and so on; so it needs to change a potential 0 there to 1 so that there's something to add the carry to. 23:00:21 context? 23:00:26 Since the tape wraps, it doesn't really matter if it's "reversed" or not, it's just a matter of tr/<>/> Context was 23:00:39 ^def pow2 bf ++[[<+++++++[-<+++++++>]>[-<+<+>>]<[->+<]<--.[-]<]++++[->++++++++<]>.[-]>>[-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<-[>-------->+>[->+>+<<]+>>[<<->>[-]]<<[>+<-]>[-<+>]<<<<-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<[-]]]]]]]]]]<[->+<]>+>[-<+>]>>]<<<] 23:00:39 Defined. 23:00:47 Whoops, that was the def part, not the ^bf part. 23:00:50 Well, 23:00:51 ^pow2 23:00:52 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 42949672 ... 23:01:26 not at all bad 23:01:33 does it do arbitrary precision arithmetic? 23:01:52 really, I need to come up with a better base-10-output routine for Underload 23:01:52 If you can call it "arithmetic", since it only does *2. 23:02:03 well, I mean, does it ever overflow? 23:02:12 also, what base does it store numbers in? Decimal? 23:02:15 No. Well, when the number reaches the tape length. 23:02:18 decimal 23:02:20 Decimal, for easy output. 23:02:33 brainfuck doesn't have a tape length 23:02:53 he knows that 23:03:15 well, yes 23:03:16 The fungot implementation has a... what was it? Some reasonable number, I didn't want a huge funge-space. 23:03:16 fizzie: in the final example given fnord), 23:03:23 I thought I'd make the point anyway, though 23:03:43 I know Thutubot cuts off at 65534 bytes of internal memory used 23:03:47 i know, thought i'd make the point anyway, though 23:03:51 :-D 23:03:53 because that's the largest number you can put in a {} block in a Perl regex 23:04:26 I think it's just a thousand cells in fungot. It probably runs out of time or output length for anything that seriously needs more. 23:04:26 fizzie: under the major heading " renewable energy support mechanisms 23:04:31 I cheat with implementing the regexen in Thutu, I just copy them verbatim into Perl and let it interpret them 23:05:11 ^show ul 23:05:12 >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>] 23:05:20 still the BF version, then? 23:05:37 Yes. Although that would probably show the bf version even if I had a built-in command of the same name. 23:05:49 yes, I suppose so 23:05:57 +ul (s)S 23:05:58 s 23:06:07 hmm... I'm surprised at how tolerant Keymaker's Underload-in-BF is 23:06:11 given that it does no error checking 23:06:25 +ul ((x)S:^):^ 23:06:26 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output! 23:06:29 ^ul ((x)S:^):^ 23:06:35 xxx ...out of time! 23:06:46 heh, quite a speed difference really 23:06:53 Is there any way of getting Underload to output characters that do not appear in the program? I guess not. (Well, except parentheses maybe.) 23:06:59 ^ul aS 23:06:59 () 23:07:01 no, there isn't 23:07:03 +ul aS 23:07:03 ...a out of stack! 23:07:13 hm? 23:07:15 Heh, there's a difference. 23:07:21 fizzie: no error checking 23:07:24 in the BF version 23:07:28 hi ais523 23:07:31 using a on an empty stack is undefined 23:07:33 hi AnMaster 23:07:33 what is up with using mibbit? 23:07:39 +ul (::::::******)(::**)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^(x)~^S 23:07:40 xxxx 23:07:40 don't have my laptop on me today 23:07:40 no laptop today? 23:07:42 ah 23:07:47 I only came in for guild council, really 23:07:50 +ul (::::::******)(::::::******)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^(x)~^S 23:07:55 +ul (::::::******)(:::::*****)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^(x)~^S 23:07:56 ais523|mibbit, ... "guild council"? 23:07:56 x 23:08:05 +ul (::::::******)(:::::*****)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S 23:08:05 ::!!()()** 23:08:14 +ul (::::::******)(::::::******)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S 23:08:14 :!!()()* 23:08:19 +ul (::::::******)(:::::::*******)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S 23:08:19 !!()() 23:08:31 +ul (::::::******)(::::::::********)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S 23:08:32 !!()()* 23:08:36 hmm 23:08:38 ^ul (::::::******)(::::::::********)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S 23:08:44 ...out of time! 23:08:45 AnMaster: sort of like Parliament, but for a University, not a country 23:08:48 amongst the students 23:08:53 +ul (::::::******)(:::::::::*********)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S 23:08:55 ...^ out of stack! 23:08:57 well 23:09:00 we decide what the university's student's should be campaigning for 23:09:01 better grammar at least 23:09:02 than 23:09:06 +ul (a)(::::::******)(:::::::::*********)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S 23:09:06 ...a out of stack! 23:09:06 !!()()(*) 23:09:09 ;P 23:09:16 +ul (a)(b)(::::::******)(::::::::::**********)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S 23:09:32 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 23:09:35 ais523|mibbit, I think that may be an error " ...a out of stack!"? 23:09:39 the spelling I mena 23:09:41 okily. so subtraction isn't exactly well-defined for negatives. 23:09:41 mean* 23:09:46 i mean, that subtraction 23:09:58 AnMaster: it's an error in the input program 23:10:00 +ul a 23:10:01 ...a out of stack! 23:10:05 you can't run a on an empty stack 23:10:10 +ul aS 23:10:10 ...a out of stack! 23:10:14 +ul (x)aS 23:10:14 (x) 23:10:14 ais523|mibbit, how comes fungot handled it? 23:10:15 AnMaster: ' ' ' 23:10:16 It's not very clear that 'a' is an instruction in this case, though. 23:10:25 AnMaster: because its Underload program is written in BF 23:10:30 and does no error checking 23:10:32 ah 23:10:36 a on an empry stack is undefined 23:10:37 fungot, huh? 23:10:37 AnMaster: should this be reverted, because you can't read their mind. it is 23:10:40 *empty stack 23:10:43 ah yes wikipedia still 23:10:47 the ' ' ' confused me 23:11:02 Thutubot is nice and errors 23:11:08 whereas fungot tries to plough on regardless 23:11:08 ais523|mibbit: potential references to use for citations. --special:contributions/ 131.216.41.16131.216.41.16 ( user talk:131.216.41.16talk) 19:26, 8 july 2006 ( utc 23:11:15 ^ul (x)*S 23:11:16 x 23:11:23 fis@eris:~/src/bef$ echo 'aS' | ~/inst/rcfunge/rcfunge/funge -q underload.b98 23:11:23 stack underflow. 23:11:23 heh, that doesn't surprise me... 23:11:30 The Funge-98 version will error out. 23:11:34 ais523, so thutubot is "fail-fast" while fungot is "fail-ignore"? 23:11:35 AnMaster: the constant use of " coup" here is simply incorrect. first uncertainty can be incorporated into the section on company officers, but it states there that the ep peaked at 2 ' ' fnord 23:11:37 When/if I get it integrated. 23:11:41 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:11:42 ^ul (x)~S(/)SS 23:11:44 /x 23:12:09 +ul (a)(b)(::::::******)((!)~^^)^S 23:12:09 ...! out of stack! 23:12:09 it seems that the BF version has an infinite number of empty strings at the bottom of the stack 23:12:16 fizzie, using { it is easy to integrate 23:12:21 maybe SUBR too 23:12:28 +ul (a)(b)(::::::******)((!)~^)^S 23:12:34 !!!!!!! 23:12:34 * ais523|mibbit tries to figure out what oklopol was trying to do 23:12:44 +ul (a)(b)(::::::******)((~)~^^)^S 23:12:44 a 23:12:48 +ul (a)(b)(:::::::*******)((~)~^^)^S 23:12:49 b 23:12:52 +ul (a)(b)(::::::::********)((~)~^^)^S 23:12:52 a 23:12:53 AnMaster: It still needs to store the program somewhere; and currently the program storage format is a bit hardcoded to the brainfuck bytecode, expects all programs to consist of two-cell pair elements and so on. 23:12:55 ah, got it 23:12:59 yeah 23:13:05 a divide-by-2 23:13:17 that's really quite clever, and utterly different from the way I did divide-by-10 23:13:22 that's where i'm trying to head, but that's just modulo... 23:13:41 Still, shouldn't be too difficult; there's already a "language id" number stored with the program, I just need to add a branching on columns 5 and 6 for that, and fix the things that deal with programs a bit. 23:13:42 oh, I think it can be adapted for divide too 23:13:44 fizzie, hm? Just store the underload stuff somewhere else? 23:13:46 my idea was, to get, using that, the parity bit, so i can subtract it, and do safe division; or something. 23:13:55 fizzie, like 50 cells away or whatever 23:14:00 OH, i have it now. 23:14:05 you would need to store something in the program each time round 23:14:05 AnMaster: I don't want to have to have two completely different lists to check for "^foo". 23:14:11 fizzie, ah right 23:14:25 (As well as two completely different lists to store to the state file and list with ^show and so on.) 23:14:32 fizzie, maybe you could compile them to befunge? :D 23:15:10 I believe threaded code would be awfully slow 23:15:25 I think I'll just store the program string (there where the brainfuck version converts to bytecode); it's just that the state-file saving and such need to be fixed to understand that. 23:15:44 +ul (::::::::********)(:((this)S)~((that)S)~(~)~^^^!)^S 23:15:44 this::::::::******** 23:15:48 +ul (:::::::::*********)(:((this)S)~((that)S)~(~)~^^^!)^S 23:15:49 that:::::::::********* 23:16:10 what the heck 23:16:15 that code is quite unreadable 23:16:16 to me 23:16:48 +ul (:::::::::*********)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^S 23:16:48 Fortuitously the number "0" never appears in the brainfuck bytecode (except as the terminating instruction) so I can just make it deal with programs as arbitrary zero-terminated lists of cells. (Even though the brainfuck bytecode "really" is pairs of (operation, argument) values.) 23:16:54 AnMaster: it's Underload, it's not that bad once you're used to it 23:16:59 http://upsilon.cc/~zack/blog/posts/2008/10/from_Vim_to_Emacs_-_part_1/ LOL :D Debian vim maintainer switches to emacs 23:17:07 fizzie, oh btw for state file saving, if you ever use i and/or o be aware of that cfunge reads stuff as unsigned char 23:17:09 for files 23:17:10 except in Mibbit because it keeps replacing bits of code with smileys 23:17:15 +ul (:::::::::*********)(:(~~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^S 23:17:15 :::::::::********* 23:17:16 unless otherwise specified 23:17:34 oklopol: ~~ obviously does nothing 23:18:21 ais523: it will soon. 23:18:40 I think I'll stick to FILE's G/P for the state file, it's so easy to use even if it's a bit inefficient. 23:19:20 unikitten is still the ultimate 2d language 23:19:33 +ul (:::***)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S 23:19:34 ...: out of stack! 23:19:40 fizzie, oh yes it is 23:19:41 And in the language model (which I'm reading with FILE's R) I just use only byte values [0, 127] in order to not get into problems with that. 23:19:49 +ul ((:^S~aSS)(+ul )):^S~aSS 23:19:49 +ul ((:^S~aSS)(+ul )):^S~aSS 23:19:51 ...could someone find decrement in that? :P 23:19:57 fizzie, as for GP I don't remember how they are supposed to read but probably char or unsigned char 23:20:19 +ul (:::***)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)^S 23:20:19 ::::!!()()**** 23:20:21 ... 23:20:22 I just store decimal integers, one per line, so I don't really care. :p 23:20:28 if the spec doesn't say otherwise it should be unsigned in cfunge, if it is still signed be sure to mention it 23:20:30 ah ok 23:20:42 oklopol: ::::!!()()**** is ::** when optimised 23:20:43 or 3 23:20:45 +ul (:::::::::*********)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^S 23:20:45 :::::::::********* 23:20:52 +ul (::::::::::**********)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^S 23:20:52 :::::::::::!!()()*********** 23:20:58 (Except that the ^def command names are there as plaintext...) 23:21:01 +ul (::::::::::**********)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^(x)~^S 23:21:01 xxxxxxxxxx 23:21:04 +ul (:::::::::::***********)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^(x)~^S 23:21:05 xxxxxxxxxxxx 23:21:08 +ul (::::::::::::************)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^(x)~^S 23:21:08 xxxxxxxxxxxx 23:21:12 +ul (:::::::::::::*************)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^(x)~^S 23:21:12 xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 23:21:14 okay 23:21:26 now the rest is trivial. 23:21:30 fizzie, so all below 128 in other words? 23:21:37 that is probably the only portable way 23:21:56 fizzie, also I don't know if cfunge truncates or wraps larger integer 23:22:08 ie, if 278 ends up as 255 or some low number 23:22:35 possibly it may vary between different instructions 23:22:39 should really clean that up 23:24:04 +ul (::!::!***)^(x)~^S 23:24:05 ...: out of stack! 23:24:07 +ul (::!::!**)^(x)~^S 23:24:08 ...: out of stack! 23:24:18 +ul (::!::!**)(x)~^S 23:24:18 xxx 23:24:27 +ul (::!::!::!***)(x)~^S 23:24:27 xxxx 23:24:56 the rest, it is not trivial. 23:25:04 it's as hard as the beginning was. 23:29:48 +ul ((:^SaS:aS^!S)(+ul ))((:^SaS:aS^!S)(*ul )):^SaS:aS^!S 23:29:48 *ul (:^SaS:aS^!S)((:^SaS:aS^!S)(*ul )):^SaS:aS^!S 23:30:12 hmph 23:30:41 oerjan: trying to make a quine? 23:30:51 polyglot quine 23:31:03 ah, between Underload and Underload? 23:31:06 yeah 23:31:29 ehird, thanks for that link 23:31:34 about vim -> emacs 23:31:39 very very useful for me :P 23:31:44 why 23:31:55 +ul ((:^S!aS:aS^!S)(+ul ))((:^S!aS:aS^!S)(*ul )):^S!aS:aS^!S 23:31:55 *ul ((:^S!aS:aS^!S)(*ul ))((:^S!aS:aS^!S)(+ul )):^S!aS:aS^!S 23:32:07 there it was 23:32:11 ehird, oh I just sent to a few friends who use vim 23:32:12 :P 23:32:40 Good to know you're caught up in the childish editor wars. 23:32:52 ^ul ((:^S!aS:aS^!S)(+ul ))((:^S!aS:aS^!S)(*ul )):^S!aS:aS^!S 23:32:58 ...out of time! 23:33:04 heh 23:33:20 ehird, no editor war 23:33:58 more like editor martial art 23:34:14 was probably for the best 23:34:29 oerjan, oh? 23:34:42 that fungot couldn't run my program 23:34:42 oerjan: this article was automatically assessed because at least one reliable source that says that latin is a timeless language. it is 23:34:49 oerjan, oh why is that? 23:35:07 ... 23:35:17 because then someone might want to test it properly... 23:35:49 fungot: how do you like Wikipedia, by the way? 23:35:49 ais523|mibbit: please go to fnord image description page and edit it to include a wikipedia:fair use rationale guidelineexplanation or rationale as to why its use in ' ' ' 23:36:05 wow 23:36:12 fungot: you seem to be confused by the markup for bold 23:36:12 ais523|mibbit: the 4wp car is mine, no it is not the case. 23:36:22 anyway, better go home 23:36:24 ais523|mibbit, hehe 23:36:24 oh right, it's the wp pages 23:36:25 bye everyone! 23:36:27 ais523|mibbit, cya 23:36:29 -!- ais523|mibbit has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 23:36:58 +ul (:::::::::::::*************)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)^S 23:36:59 ::::::::::::::!!()()************** 23:38:59 oklopol, quine please 23:39:32 oklopol, including the ^ul 23:39:35 in the quite 23:39:37 quine* 23:40:00 actually a better idea would be fungot <-> thutubot loop 23:40:01 AnMaster: and then who knows, dr spooner may prove right in the end... fnord 02:25, 15 oct 2004 ( utc) 23:40:12 dr spooner? 23:40:14 oh well 23:40:30 fizzie, you probably want to avoid loops with thutubot 23:40:36 +ul (:::::*****)((:)~*(*)*)^(x)~^S 23:40:36 xxxxxxx 23:40:37 with ul that would be possible 23:40:53 ignore thutubot I guess 23:40:58 +ul (:::::::::::::*************)(::(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^:*~((:)~*(*)*)~^~*^)^S 23:40:58 :!!()()* 23:41:02 :) 23:41:10 AnMaster: er i did just that a bit above? 23:42:02 except that fungot couldn't run the program through because it was too complicated 23:42:03 oerjan: what about all the other controversial statements basically summarise what he says, dec. 25, 1989, friday jerusalem post 23:42:25 Didn't we already have one fungot-thutubot loop. 23:42:25 fizzie: this article was automatically assessed because at least one tank fnord as a subspecies of the black on white violence. clear, unedited and in no way constitute a " massive attack on free speech" but aiming to insult and defame holocaust victims and fnord and their meanings. i don't think anybody calls it the " power stroke" 23:42:54 yeah but i wanted to try a loop with both in underload 23:43:11 +ul (:::::::::::::*************)(::((:)~*(*)*)~^:*~(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^~*^)^S 23:43:12 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::!!()()***************************** 23:43:18 +ul (:::::::::::::*************)(::((:)~*(*)*)~^:*~(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^~*^)^(x)~^S 23:43:18 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 23:43:33 +ul (:::::::::::::*************)(x)~^S 23:43:34 xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 23:43:42 well that's one complicated multiplication. 23:43:50 that was *not* what i was trying to do. 23:44:14 oerjan, oh ok 2008-10-24: 00:04:26 +ul (:::::*****)((a)~(b)~(~())~(a)~^^^)S 00:04:26 (a)~(b)~(~())~(a)~^^^ 00:04:31 +ul (:::::*****)((a)~(b)~(~())~(a)~^^^)^S 00:04:31 (((((~()))))) 00:04:58 +ul (:::::*****)((a)~(b)~(~())~(a)~^^^!)^S 00:04:58 b 00:05:02 +ul (::::****)((a)~(b)~(~())~(a)~^^^!)^S 00:05:03 b 00:05:06 +ul (:*)((a)~(b)~(~())~(a)~^^^!)^S 00:05:07 b 00:05:11 +ul (!())((a)~(b)~(~())~(a)~^^^!)^S 00:05:11 a 00:05:24 okay, isZero 00:05:34 was just falling asleep 00:05:36 when it hit me 00:05:37 hehe 00:05:39 -> 00:07:48 night 00:13:05 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 00:16:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | (*)Y(*). 00:37:03 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 01:33:16 i forgot how to sleep. 01:33:41 very nasty, that 01:50:05 ya. 01:58:16 hey oklopol 01:58:27 hey 02:00:06 +ul (:*)((!())~()~(~())~(a)~^^^!)^(x)~^S 02:00:07 x 02:00:10 +ul (::**)((!())~()~(~())~(a)~^^^!)^(x)~^S 02:00:11 x 02:00:14 +ul ()((!())~()~(~())~(a)~^^^!)^(x)~^S 02:00:14 x 02:00:18 +ul (!())((!())~()~(~())~(a)~^^^!)^(x)~^S 02:00:51 D: 02:00:54 what is this now 02:01:08 +ul (::**)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)^(x)~^S 02:01:08 xx 02:01:14 +ul (:::***)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)^(x)~^S 02:01:14 xxx 02:01:16 oh nothing. 02:10:46 oh my god the stack is hard to use. 02:11:41 +ul (::::****)((:)~*(*)*)^(x)~^S 02:11:42 xxxxxx 02:11:47 +ul (!())((:)~*(*)*)^(x)~^S 02:11:48 x 02:12:01 +ul (!())((:)~*(*)*)^((:)~*(*)*)^(x)~^S 02:12:02 xx 02:14:37 +ul (a)(b)a~a*:^~!~^SSS 02:14:37 aba 02:18:45 +ul (a)(b)(c)(~)^SSS 02:18:45 bca 02:19:47 +ul (a)(b)(c)(a~a*~)^SSS 02:19:48 a{{c}}{{b}} ...S out of stack! 02:20:04 +ul (a)(b)(c)(a~a*~a^)^SSS 02:20:05 a{{c}}{{b}} ...S out of stack! 02:20:07 :D 02:20:14 +ul (a)(b)(c)(a~a*~a^)SSS 02:20:14 a~a*~a^cb 02:20:16 what? 02:20:17 ... 02:20:27 oerjan: just let me spam in peace ! 02:20:40 where are those {} from? 02:20:48 ah those 02:20:52 well no one knows really :) 02:21:18 +ul (a)(b)(c)(a~a*~a^^)^SSS 02:21:19 {{{{c}}{{b}}}} ...S out of stack! 02:21:23 .... 02:21:26 +ul (a)(b)(c)(a~a*~a)^SSS 02:21:27 {{a}}{{c}}{{b}} ...S out of stack! 02:21:30 +ul (a)(b)(c)(a~a*~a)^S 02:21:30 (a) 02:21:32 +ul (a)(b)(c)(a~a*~a)^SS 02:21:33 (a)(c)(b) 02:21:34 hm 02:21:40 +ul (a)(b)(c)(a~a*~a^)^SS 02:21:40 a(c)(b) 02:22:52 +ul (a)(b)(c)(a~a*~a*^)^SS 02:22:53 ab 02:22:54 +ul (a)(b)(c)(a~a*~a*^)^SSS 02:22:55 abc 02:23:15 right, you can rotate things on the stack pretty freely 02:23:58 yeah it's just a bit verbose 02:24:01 +ul (a)(b)(c)(a~a*~a*^a:*~a*~a*^)^SSS 02:24:01 cba 02:24:18 +ul (a)(b)(c)(a~a*~a*^a:*~a*~a*^)^SSSS 02:24:18 cbaa 02:24:28 okay, you can do *anything* to the stack. 02:24:39 for some reason i thought you can't. 02:25:50 the a operation is pretty essential 02:26:34 without it you couldn't reach more than two levels down without mangling things 02:26:42 hmm 02:27:05 +ul (a)SS 02:27:06 a ...S out of stack! 02:27:06 withouth it, would it still have powah? 02:27:09 *without 02:27:39 i should retry sleeping probably, have to be awake in a few hours 02:27:45 +ul ((a)(b))SS 02:27:46 {{a}}{{b}} ...S out of stack! 02:27:51 i'll probably write a stackmongler tomorrow 02:27:55 +ul ((a)(b))S 02:27:56 (a)(b) 02:27:59 and by that i mean 02:28:10 a program that codes underload for me 02:28:43 because i'm a wimpy wampy wussypants loser. 02:28:46 it seems those {} are an artifact of debugging output... 02:28:51 peeeeeerhaps 02:28:58 they may be el stacko 02:29:03 err 02:29:05 naaahh 02:29:08 they arrrren't 02:29:22 +ul (c)((a)(b))SSS 02:29:23 {{a}}{{b}}c ...S out of stack! 02:29:31 hmm 02:29:37 perhaps popping doesn't remove the balues 02:29:38 *values 02:29:44 and it prints the stack contents 02:29:55 +ul (a)(b)(c)!!!! 02:29:56 ...! out of stack! 02:30:06 +ul (c)((a)(b))SS 02:30:07 (a)(b)c 02:30:07 err. 02:30:14 that's 02:30:17 sick. 02:30:31 hmm 02:31:07 +ul ({{TEST}})S 02:31:07 {{TEST}} 02:31:13 +ul ({{TEST}})SS 02:31:13 {{TEST}} ...S out of stack! 02:31:19 seems output is only done at the end of execution, and failure triggers a raw output mode 02:31:20 or something 02:31:29 umm. 02:31:29 yeah 02:31:41 but i don't see what sense that makes 02:31:48 +ul (({{TEST}}))SS 02:31:49 {{{{TEST}}}} ...S out of stack! 02:31:54 yay 02:32:14 ..yay? 02:32:24 weirdness 02:33:25 coool weirdnecessarity 02:33:38 except we know it can cut off infinite output 02:33:55 well it needs to buffer it 02:34:22 +ul (:(* )S^):^ 02:34:23 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ...too much output! 02:34:34 hmm 02:34:45 hm maybe it just halts 02:34:58 you mean, after a while 02:35:02 +ul (:((A))S^):^ 02:35:04 (A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A) ...too much output! 02:35:26 +ul (:((A))SSSSS):^ 02:35:26 {{A}}:{{{{A}}}}SSSSS:{{{{A}}}}SSSSS ...S out of stack! 02:35:32 :D 02:35:41 what the fuck :D 02:35:44 oh 02:38:36 +ul (:(((A))(B))S^):^ 02:38:37 ((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B) ...too much output! 02:38:53 it seems the too much output case doesn't trigger this 02:39:24 no, just when you empty the stack 02:39:44 +ul (asd)Ss 02:39:44 asd 02:39:47 +ul (asd)S 02:39:48 asd 02:39:49 +ul (asd)S e 02:39:49 asd 02:39:51 +ul (asd)S S 02:39:52 asd 02:39:55 hmm 02:40:02 does it just cut execution at illegal chars? 02:40:03 +ul ((A)(B))ST 02:40:04 (A)(B) 02:40:26 +ul (a)S (a)S 02:40:27 a 02:40:28 +ul (H)S (I)S 02:40:29 H 02:40:30 yeah i guess 02:40:45 +ul (H)SS (I)S 02:40:46 H ...S out of stack! 02:41:30 +ul ({{TEST}})S 02:41:31 {{TEST}} 02:42:09 +ul (({{TEST}}))S 02:42:10 ({{TEST}=)} 02:42:16 ooh 02:42:38 found a bug! 02:43:03 :D 02:43:16 now what the fuck is that 02:43:24 ah 02:43:25 +ul (({{TEST}}))((A))SS 02:43:26 (A)({{TEST}=)} 02:43:35 {}'s are actually not allowed in underload iirc 02:43:40 +ul ((A))(({{TEST}}))SS 02:43:40 ({{TEST}=)}(A) 02:43:42 so that's not actually a bug. 02:43:58 well not as commands, but... 02:44:00 just implementation-defined stuff defined by an implementation 02:44:03 oh 02:44:06 right, as data, yeah 02:44:40 well we can assume thutubot's implementation uses {} for something internally 02:44:56 yes 02:45:13 although i can't say i know what exactly. 02:46:10 which means we should continue 02:46:21 the wiki says nothing about {} although it says []<>" need quoting 02:46:24 or you should. i'm too tired to think, but i like watching this :P 02:46:31 ah 02:46:33 i see 02:46:38 but that interpreters don't implement it 02:47:02 ^ul ((A))(({{TEST}}))SS 02:47:08 ({{TE ...out of time! 02:47:14 bah :D 02:47:56 i would assume fungot's implementation is entirely different 02:47:56 oerjan: the reason this was created was that information on this page. note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 may, 2006, and lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on wikipedia:criteria for speedy deletionimages.2fmediacriteria for speedy deletion. if you have 02:48:08 well yeah 02:48:22 +ul (({{}}))S 02:48:22 ({{}=)} 02:48:27 ^ul (({{}}))S 02:48:28 it's written in an entirely different paradigm 02:48:31 ({{}}) 02:48:37 no bug there 02:48:59 yeah 02:49:22 when exactly does that appear? 02:49:31 when you have two }}'s? 02:49:40 +ul (}})S 02:49:41 }} 02:49:44 +ul ({{}})S 02:49:45 {{}} 02:49:49 +ul (({{}}))S 02:49:50 ({{}=)} 02:49:52 +ul ((}}))S 02:49:52 (}=)} 02:49:55 +ul ((}))S 02:49:55 (=)} 02:50:00 ... 02:50:01 xD 02:50:06 when you mix () and {} in the output 02:50:08 i think 02:50:18 yeah but look at that 02:50:22 it jumped out of the /( 02:50:24 *() 02:51:03 okay i need to go to sleep :P 02:51:04 -> 02:51:17 +ul (({))S 02:51:17 ({) 02:51:28 oh that had no bug 02:51:40 +ul (({{))S 02:51:40 ({{) 02:51:53 +ul (})S 02:51:54 } 02:52:00 +ul ((}))S 02:52:00 (=)} 02:52:04 +ul (({}))S 02:52:05 ({=)} 02:52:45 +ul (({{}))S 02:52:45 ({{=)} 02:52:51 +ul (({}}))S 02:52:51 ({}=)} 03:09:30 +ul ({{{{X}}}})S 03:09:30 {{{{X}}}} 03:09:36 +ul ({{{X}}})S 03:09:37 {{{X}}} 03:16:10 +ul (()(*))(~:^!(:)~*(*)*a~^~^:S( )Sa*~:^):^ 03:16:11 * ** ****** ************************ ************************************************************************************************************************ ...too much output! 03:18:27 +ul ((*)())(~:^!(**)*a~^*:S( )Sa*~:^):^ 03:18:28 * **** ********* **************** ************************* ************************************ ************************************************* ...too much output! 03:57:47 +ul ((0)(1))(~:^:Sa~a~*a~^a~a*a*~:^)(0)S:^ 03:57:49 01(1)(0)((1)(0))((0)(1))(((1)(0))((0)(1)))(((0)(1))((1)(0)))((((1)(0))((0)(1)))(((0)(1))((1)(0))))((((0)(1))((1)(0)))(((1)(0))((0)(1))))(((((1)(0))((0)(1)))(((0)(1))((1)(0))))((((0)(1))((1)(0)))(((1)(0))((0)(1)))))(((((0)(1))((1)(0)))(((1)(0))((0)(1))))((((1)(0))((0)(1)))(((0)(1))((1)(0))))) ...too much output! 03:57:57 oops 03:59:36 what the hell is this now 03:59:54 too many a's 04:00:14 +ul ((0)(1))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^)(0)S:^ 04:00:15 0110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110100101100110100101101001100101100110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110 ...too much output! 04:00:23 there we go 04:01:35 thue-morse sequence 04:03:12 lol 04:34:17 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 05:12:16 http://purdueextremecroquet.org/ 05:14:10 old. 05:14:33 And yet I just keep on rererererelinking it 8-D 05:24:24 so, doesn't croquet have this rule where you get to strike the opponent's ball anywhere you like as far as you can, if you get your balls to touch 05:26:44 That's what she said. 05:26:45 ... 05:26:46 But yes. 05:26:54 That's a croquet shot. 05:27:36 i see 05:27:57 you have that rule? 05:28:08 If that wasn't part of the rules, it wouldn't be croquet at all. 05:28:13 yeah 05:28:16 There's a reason that's called the /croquet/ shot. 05:28:18 Wasn't that oerjan's underload loop a bit too complicated? Although I did have to bump up fungot's Underload time limits for this too: 05:28:18 fizzie: ' ' ' 05:28:26 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 05:28:40 for some reason i thought something there contradicted it or something. 05:28:42 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 05:28:43 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 05:28:57 i'll try to locate what 05:29:00 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 05:29:00 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 05:29:08 Yay, it worksors. 05:29:16 11.4: (Replace) Players must make a reasonable effort not to interfere with 05:29:16 their own or others' balls. If a player accidentally moves a ball that was at 05:29:16 rest, that player must replace the ball without penalty. 05:29:17 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 05:29:18 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 05:29:22 Of course fungot's so slow that's not much of a loop. 05:29:35 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 05:29:35 fizzie: every single orchestration and band scoring text i've checked gives the range of the ' ' mensa magazine" may not be confirmed. and i mean come on, at what age is the dividing line between 05:29:35 -!- fungot has left (?). 05:29:35 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 05:29:37 oklopol: That's not as a result of a shot, that's if they trip over the ball or whatnot. 05:29:44 oklopol: You need to read that into context to see the real meaning :P 05:29:46 -!- fungot has joined. 05:30:18 GregorR: yeah it's clear it means that. 05:30:41 only an idiot would not realize that. 05:31:41 -!- immibis has joined. 05:32:47 GregorR: anyway, my point was exactly that if you had removed that rule, you shouldn't be calling it croquet 05:33:03 oklopol: I totally agree with that. Good thing I didn't remove that rule :P 05:34:06 (okay i prolly just would've said it makes the game a lot less fun, and less strategical; the poetic reference to the name was all yours.) 05:34:15 So, does everybody know that "uber" is officially dead? 05:34:45 you mean, using the incorrect umlautless german word for "over" to mean "supahcool"? 05:34:53 Yes. 05:34:59 It was used in a commercial for feminine pads, and is therefore no longer to be used. 05:35:12 err what are feminine pads? 05:35:33 i did not know this, i thought it died ages ago :D 05:35:52 it's, like, überold 05:35:59 ... I so don't want to explain this ... pads that collect the ... flow ... from the monthly feminine .. predicament. 05:36:25 oh you mean menstrual filters 05:36:34 blood preventers 05:36:43 flow distractors 05:36:53 Uhhhhh, suuuure, except that none of those terms are used :P 05:39:09 i thought feminine pads were more like those things kids use for swimming, the things you attach to their arms 05:39:10 "It's uberabsorbent"? 05:39:13 ...only for women 05:39:19 immibis: Yup. 05:39:26 oklopol: LOL 05:39:48 lol 05:40:11 the other guess was dance pads for dance dance revolution 05:40:13 ...but with flowers 05:40:17 ... 05:40:19 Actually, they said "an uber-absorbent material", but eh. 05:40:52 that sounds familiar 05:41:03 but i can't have seen the ad 05:41:11 so prolly i'm psychic 05:41:39 also exam about word and excel in 20 minutes, this is going to be sweet 05:41:40 -> 05:41:50 WTF X-D 05:44:17 wtif indeed 05:44:18 *wtf 05:45:17 wtf @ what exactly? 05:46:03 also exam about word and excel in 20 minutes, this is going to be sweet 05:46:33 which was the wtf 05:46:40 the sweet part or just the exam part 05:47:07 The exam part. 05:48:20 yeah, it's a bit of a wtf, they've started teaching us cs students computer basics obligatorily now 05:48:24 i don't know why 05:48:38 and i hate it, because i had to learn to use word, which is an ugly program 05:48:43 Hahaha, your college sucks. 05:48:57 :P 05:49:31 At Purdue and PSU all the undergrad CS is done on UNIX, so even if they DID make the baby stuff mandatory it'd be with better software. 05:49:52 word is pretty much the best for what it does. 05:50:16 lament: wordpad opens faster. 05:50:22 that's really all that matters. 05:50:32 LaTeX is prettier X-P 05:50:36 GregorR: we have a unix part too 05:50:53 GregorR: and far, far slower to write stuff in 05:51:05 lament: That example /might/ have been sarcastic :P 05:51:09 but that's a lot simpler, just some catting and pipering 05:52:31 anyway, i don't dislike the fact we have windows as much as i dislike the fact we're taught about computers in general, i don't care about computers, i wanna learn computer science 05:52:46 but, taste you later -> 05:52:54 I think we had a Windows Word/Excel/something part in the obligatory-for-all-students-not-just-CS "this is how you use them computers" course; I don't think I've had to touch a windows box since then. 05:59:05 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. and dlte ur files. and email ths to). 06:12:37 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 06:16:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | INTERCAL's probably better for really complex programs, but writing such in esolangs is normally inadvisable anyway. 06:19:56 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 06:41:50 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:07:12 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:13:26 -!- pikhq has joined. 08:39:30 where are those {} from? <--- you hit a bug in Thutubot's error handling, I think, it uses those internally 08:40:13 seems output is only done at the end of execution, and failure triggers a raw output mode <--- yes, I think that's exactly what's happening, probably 08:41:09 it uses {{ }} internally to distinguish inside parens from outside parens 08:41:14 to do paren-matching 08:41:40 and the = you came up with is used internally by Thutu for things, you definitely hit a Thutubot bug if you can get one of those in the output without putting it in the input 09:03:56 -!- omniscient_idiot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:08:43 morning 09:08:57 morning 09:11:29 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 09:24:40 Quasi-morning. 09:45:04 evening 09:48:25 puzzlet: afternoon according to your client 09:48:30 which time zone is that, by the way? 09:48:44 let me check myself 09:49:14 5:49 PM, normal in South Korea 09:49:36 ah, ok 09:49:40 8 hours ahead of the UK 09:49:46 so GMT-9 09:49:48 + 09:49:58 grr, always get time zones backwards... 09:50:18 i'm always confused with tz 10:00:59 Psuedo-morning. 10:01:14 (pikhq here saying: all-nighters to get your homework done suck balls. 10:05:54 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has quit. 10:20:32 heh 10:29:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Unisex."). 10:30:53 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:31:00 "Whoops." 10:31:19 Shouldn't do the "it's a small change, I won't bother testing locally" thing. 10:31:32 testing locally is normally faster 10:31:55 now, I just have to figure whether me or AnMaster wrote the topic 10:32:02 it's AnMasterish language, but I suspect it was me 10:32:18 I don't remember writing it 10:32:51 ais523, and how is it "AnMasterish language"? 10:33:02 the use of the word "such" there looks weird 10:33:06 but I can understand that I might do that 10:33:09 on occasion 10:33:12 oh 10:33:14 Awww, I just lost the state file. 10:33:19 what would you recommend isntead? 10:33:21 instead* 10:33:26 fizzie, use backup? ;P 10:33:50 There goes my ^cho and ^choo reimplementations, and the nifty pow2. Although they're all in IRC logs. 10:34:03 I have a "backup" copy of the state file, but it's old. 10:34:42 AnMaster: "writing those in esolangs"? 10:34:48 -!- fungot has joined. 10:34:50 ^show 10:34:51 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc xaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul test 10:34:54 Heh, it was that old. 10:35:44 oklopol, I don't think I said the line in topic 10:35:57 but yeah I guess that makes more sense in English 10:36:14 that's a lot of commands fizzie 10:36:29 Many of them make no sense, that's why I removed some of 'em. 10:36:36 well remove them again 10:36:39 then 10:36:52 That's curious; the line in topic doesn't appear in my logs. I must've not been here when it was said. 10:37:22 ^echochohoo 10:37:25 ^echochohoo test 10:37:25 testeststt 10:37:31 well, at least that one's back 10:37:40 but most of it is just CO2Games spam 10:37:41 I already "reimplemented" it as ^cho. 10:37:52 ^code 002aaa***99++p 10:37:54 ^show 10:37:54 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc 10:38:01 ^def ul bf str:5 10:38:01 Defined. 10:38:07 ^ul (foo)S 10:38:08 foo 10:38:30 ^def cho bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>] 10:38:31 Defined. 10:38:39 ^def choo bf >,[>,]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>] 10:38:39 Defined. 10:38:41 ^save 10:38:44 ^cho fungot 10:39:04 Whooopsie, there's still a bug in "^save", which means that whatever I did there was completely for naught. 10:39:07 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:40:14 -!- fungot has joined. 10:40:16 fizzie, heh... 10:40:17 ^cho fungot 10:40:17 fungotungotngotgotott 10:40:23 That's "better". 10:40:23 ^show 10:40:24 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul cho choo 10:40:39 ^help 10:40:39 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 10:40:39 (Did those commands in the query before bringing it on-channel.) 10:40:51 what are cho and choo? 10:40:53 Oh, I still haven't remembered the ^bool in help. 10:40:59 ^bool 10:40:59 Yes. 10:41:01 ^bool 10:41:02 No. 10:41:02 ^bool 10:41:02 No. 10:41:03 ais523: ^echochohoo and ^echo_cho_ho_o. 10:41:09 ah, ok 10:41:16 ^fib 999 10:41:17 ^choo fungot 10:41:26 fungot ungot ngot got ot t 10:41:27 something broke it? 10:41:33 ^show 10:41:33 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul cho choo 10:41:35 no, it's just being slow for some reason 10:41:46 ais523, the ^fib didn't work it seems 10:41:48 It's slow because I have raised the brainfuck cycle count. 10:41:54 And I think fib got borkened at some point. 10:41:55 nor did it say "out of time" 10:41:57 ^show fib 10:41:57 >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][] 10:42:03 Hmm, no. That looks sensible. 10:42:10 fizzie, the [] at the end? 10:42:14 On first glance, anyway. 10:42:14 the [] at the end is suspicious 10:42:18 but it might just have been a header comment 10:42:45 ^wc 10:42:48 ^wc abc 10:42:58 ^show wc 10:42:59 [] 10:43:00 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 10:43:00 10:43:07 Hmm. 10:43:14 There seems to be some extra []s. 10:43:15 looks like several saved ones are borked 10:43:21 ^show hi 10:43:24 And it was ^wc that had gotten borkeded earlier, I think. 10:43:26 hm? 10:43:30 ^show hi 10:43:32 'hi' is empty. 10:43:35 ah 10:43:35 So it won't show up. 10:43:40 ^show rev 10:43:41 >,[>,]<[.<] 10:43:47 ^show reverb 10:43:48 ,[..,] 10:43:51 ^reverb test 10:43:52 tteesstt 10:44:00 ^cho test 10:44:00 testeststt 10:44:04 ^show rot13 10:44:05 ,[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+14<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>>+5[<-5>-]<2-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+ 10:44:10 ^rot13 abc 10:44:11 nop 10:44:15 ^rot13 no? 10:44:15 ab? 10:44:18 ah it works 10:44:20 there has to be a shorter way to write rot13... 10:44:30 ais523: There is, but that one executes very fast. 10:44:40 well, yes 10:44:40 ais523, well that one is too long for an irc line too 10:44:45 it's an unrolled switch statement 10:44:49 hehe 10:45:25 ais523, ah that reminds me, how goes gcc-bf? 10:45:39 still stalled 10:45:44 This is the earliest I've been up in months. 10:45:58 Damned all-nighters. 10:46:30 5:00, and I'm not done with calculus yet. 10:47:21 Actually I think I've just broken the "..." and maybe "... out of time" outputs. 10:47:25 ^bf +[] 10:47:34 ...out of time! 10:47:47 That one still works, but I think the "too much output" one doesn't. 10:47:54 ^bf +[.] 10:47:55 ^show 10:47:55 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 10:47:58 Yep. 10:48:24 +ul ((x)S:^):^ 10:48:24 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output! 10:50:11 It's actually a bit curious that it doesn't completely crash there; it goes completely off the route. 10:50:21 the IP gets lost? 10:50:34 does it hit a stray ^ or something when it comes back from the other side of the program? 10:50:53 I think it hits a "o" in a comment, reflects, goes back to the | where it went lost but takes the other branch this time and uses the normal exit. 10:51:29 ^reload 10:51:29 Reloaded. 10:51:33 ^bf +[.] 10:51:33 ... 10:51:38 ^fib 10:51:39 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ... 10:51:41 ^pow2 10:51:41 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 42949672 ... 10:51:51 Witness the power of this fully operational Befunge bot. 10:52:51 the joys of Befunge! 10:54:34 fungot: I don't suppose I messed up your language skills when doing those changes? 10:54:34 fizzie: the article does not meet the guidelines on neutrality and stability required for ga status. the focus should be in " description" fnord 22:23, 16 january 2007 ( utc)) hendrix remains an extremely influential figure in music the article, and in the end, we can quote him in support of his clean air fnord to the statements in fnord 10:56:03 I think that was a "no". 10:56:32 it's surprising how Wikipedia-like fungot's comments are atm 10:56:33 ais523: this article is strangely absent of scientific backup. please wikipedians interested in this line of thought. i know nothing about the middle name thing until yesterday ( i knew about mi funding for jeugkrag, or that ' ' some more" 10:56:36 even given the source 10:58:10 hehe 10:58:42 It's also a bit surprising how well it worked even without stripping any of the MediaWiki markup. (Although fungot strips out all unrecognized punctuation.) 10:58:42 fizzie: ' ' shake" the fnord or system of which that position is a part of total cost of operation are the maintenance and support direct and indirect casulties included. why aren't you following clear guideline? 10:58:44 fungot, WP:WP:WP:ACRONYM 10:58:45 AnMaster: i also threw together a fnord transportation section from former edits still needs work, but seriously i thought it was fnord fnord source: corporate.wwe.com user:sephiroth stormsephiroth storm 16:26, 21 april 2008 ( utc 10:59:00 what did I just miss? 10:59:08 (the sad thing is that both WP:WP and WP:ACRONYM actually seem to exist.....) 10:59:08 fungot: MediaWiki markup for bold seems to confuse it most often 10:59:08 ais523: there has been in the relationship between the gallon and the bushel that is not clear what meaning the author intended to convey. 10:59:10 ''' 10:59:25 AnMaster: the WP: shortcuts are designed to be easy to remember 10:59:28 Yes, since 's are recognized as stuff. 10:59:29 and so they make lots of spares 10:59:48 ais523, yes and making a joke of them by saying WP:WP doesn't work since that seems to lead to a list of all WP:* 10:59:58 and why wouldn't it? 11:00:11 ais523, ? 11:00:26 I mean, what's wrong with having WP:WP be about WP: pages? 11:00:48 ais523, nothing, however it is ruins a good joke 11:03:11 Need to restart since I don't have a ^reload-state command yet... 11:03:17 ^raw QUIT :my mind is going! 11:03:17 -!- fungot has quit ("my mind is going!"). 11:03:37 -!- fungot has joined. 11:12:54 Ok... 11:13:23 I *think* I may have a working solution to the issue with funge space bounds updates 11:13:49 it is messy but seems to work correctly when ATHR isn't used and should work ok with ATHR loaded 11:16:46 What's ATHR? Any URL describing it? 11:16:58 a sec 11:17:12 http://rafb.net/p/jT1WV348.html 11:18:33 Ilari, I have a partly done implementation 11:47:43 Ilari, well what do you think of it? 11:48:32 AnMaster: Pretty standard async threads library (aside of odd terminology used, as is normal in esolangs)... 11:48:40 ok 11:49:00 it is difficult to implement though 11:49:15 even though I'm doing it in a language with built in support for concurrency 11:49:17 (Erlang) 11:49:44 AnMaster: One thing stood up: S reflects both on error and in child. Using it correctly requires recognizing wheither forward thread exists or not... 11:50:01 Ilari, hm... true 11:50:49 the reason 1) t (sync thread, round robin, standard funge) reflects child. 2) Most funge instructions reflect on errors 11:51:07 so yes it needs some work 11:51:37 (and so far I only implemented some core changes and such, not the actual fingerprint interface, so it would be easy to change) 11:51:54 AnMaster: Recognizing forward thread of t is easier due to its synchronous nature than recognizing the forward thread of S. 11:52:23 true 11:52:35 Ilari, So do you have a good solution? 11:53:33 AnMaster: Nope. Splitting left and right only works in two dimensions, so it really can't be used... 11:54:19 Ilari, hm? It works up/down too 11:54:26 it is "opposite direction" simply 11:54:35 so it means you can get it from any delta 11:54:58 AnMaster: he meant turning one like [ and the other ] 11:55:05 ah right 11:57:47 Well, one could implement recognizing if there was spawn-and-borrow-in-child instruction... 11:58:20 Ilari, "borrow in child"? what would that do? 11:58:28 Or if S returned return value like fork() does... 11:58:41 ah that may be a better idea 11:59:10 AnMaster: It borrows book that has given number in child immediately after creating the child (atomically). 11:59:16 ah 11:59:59 Ilari, well that would be highly complex considering that my ATHR is planned to work distributed (current version won't, need to add local funge-space cache or such) 12:00:17 anyway hm 12:00:47 if it is only atomic against parent it could work 12:00:51 AnMaster: It is entierely possible to generate IDs in distributed way (if the space to choose from is large enough). 12:01:15 well yeah it is, my funge is bignum ;P 12:01:31 AnMaster: Well, locking only has to be atomic with respect to parent... 12:01:52 hm would doing that or doing like fork be best I wonder. 12:02:18 AnMaster: The fork way would be easier for programmer... 12:02:29 true 12:02:41 Is that a goal? 12:03:01 AnMaster: Umm... Nope. :-) 12:04:26 Ilari, still I think ATHR may be quite easy to use, while it looks complex. The terminology helps with that a bit I guess. 12:04:38 and that could actually be a goal 12:08:19 AnMaster: Or it could even be simple 0 => success, 1 => failure in reflected thread... 12:08:31 hm 12:08:50 Ilari, yes that could work. So child gets 0 or 1? 12:08:51 AnMaster: No real need to have that in forward thread, as it impiles success anyway. 12:09:10 Ilari, the check of thread id could also be used I think 12:09:15 comparing old and new value 12:09:26 AnMaster: Yea. That would work... 12:09:38 AnMaster: So no real need to add anything new... :-) 12:09:54 and would need no change. Plus it is easy but not obvious until you think of it. (If you see what I mean) 12:09:58 Phew; fixed (hopefully) all the places where fungot was hardcoded to brainfuck. Now it lets you specify underload programs... unfortunately those aren't interpreted yet. 12:09:58 fizzie: i'm sure i'm not the person who wrote the letter that keeps being removed. fnord 00:05, 30 august 2008 ( utc 12:10:16 ^def foo ul (foo)S 12:10:16 Defined. 12:10:17 ^show foo 12:10:18 (foo)S 12:10:23 ^foo 12:10:31 crash? 12:10:37 No, it just won't do anything. 12:11:01 Now I need to stick the underload interpreter in the correct place and mangle it a bit to read the program from the right place. 12:12:24 Oh, and it needs some sort of cycle counter to handle infinite loops. 12:16:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | got it.. 12:36:07 hi ais523 12:37:30 hi 12:37:44 ^ul (:aSS):aSS 12:37:46 (:aSS):aSS 12:38:18 I won't be evil and write an infinite loop 12:38:32 fizzie: one trick worth knowing in Underload is that it's impossible to have an infinite loop without the : command 12:38:38 so if it's easier, you can just count colons 12:41:12 ^ul ^ul 12:41:22 * AnMaster waits 12:41:30 what about "out of time"? 12:41:40 ^help 12:41:40 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 12:41:43 hm 12:41:47 ^show 12:41:47 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 foo 12:41:59 ^bf +[.] 12:41:59 ... 12:42:05 ^bf ,,, 12:42:08 hm 12:42:09 ? 12:42:11 ^show 12:42:12 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 foo 12:42:13 ah 12:42:18 ^choo 12:42:19 12:42:19 didn't hang on input of course 12:42:22 ^choo choo 12:42:22 choo hoo oo o 12:42:46 fizzie, didn't you filter non-printable before? 12:42:49 Why did you stop? 12:43:26 fizzie, also for cycle counter, what about using t and having another thread insert a "abort" if it takes too long? 12:43:35 another ip* 12:59:26 That might be better, but harder to arrange than a simple count of executed Underload instructions. 12:59:46 Although the underload instructions do take a rather variable amount of time and stack space. 13:00:22 I'm not sure who wanted it to filter only newlines; at least CTCP-annoying is now possible with it. 13:00:39 And the current ^ul command is still the brainfuck one. 13:01:10 I'm still mashing that interpreter in, and even in my local copy only "^def foo ul ..." + "^foo" work; I'll have to add a separate command for ^ul. 13:23:43 There are probably bazillion bugs left, but... 13:23:44 ^reload 13:23:44 Reloaded. 13:23:52 ^ul (:aSS):aSS 13:23:52 (:aSS):aSS 13:24:09 (The 'show' command still shows the brainfuck version, but that's not what it uses.) 13:24:14 ^ul * 13:24:14 ...out of stack! 13:24:47 Also just a quick test... 13:24:48 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 13:24:48 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 13:24:49 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 13:24:49 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 13:24:49 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 13:24:49 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 13:24:50 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 13:24:50 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 13:24:50 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 13:24:50 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 13:24:51 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 13:24:51 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 13:24:51 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 13:24:52 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 13:24:52 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 13:24:53 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 13:24:53 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 13:24:55 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 13:24:55 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 13:24:56 ugh 13:24:57 -!- fungot has left (?). 13:25:03 you need ignore 13:25:08 Yes, that would be a good idea. 13:25:33 Maybe later. :p 13:25:37 -!- fungot has joined. 13:25:50 ^ul test 13:25:50 ...bad insn! 13:25:54 ^ul () 13:25:57 hm? 13:25:59 ^ul ()S 13:26:01 Well, no output is still no output. 13:26:02 ^show 13:26:03 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 foo 13:26:05 ^ul (a)S 13:26:05 a 13:26:10 ^ul (aS)aS 13:26:10 (aS) 13:26:12 hm 13:26:20 underload is strange 13:26:35 no it isn't 13:26:39 Oh, I've forgotten to add a output length limit thing. 13:27:44 ((test) a S 13:27:47 ^ul ((test) a S 13:27:47 ...unterminated (! 13:27:50 ah 13:27:55 AnMaster: space is not an underload command 13:27:58 oh 13:28:01 well i see. 13:28:03 ^ul ((crash)S:^):^ 13:28:03 ...out of stack! 13:28:11 oklopol, I was just checking mismatched () 13:28:13 Hmm, that's strange. 13:28:15 yap 13:28:15 ^ul )(S 13:28:15 ...bad insn! 13:28:18 hm? 13:28:24 ) is not a valid instruction. 13:28:25 mismatched I'd say 13:28:30 oh ok 13:28:40 fizzie, just a marker? 13:28:41 It doesn't handle ) as a instruction, just when parsing (. 13:28:54 err 13:29:03 fizzie: why did that (crash) thing crash? 13:29:04 how would you push a ( or a ) on the stack? 13:29:15 oklopol: I don't know; it works in the stand-alone interpreter. 13:29:18 +ul ((crash)S:^):^ 13:29:19 crashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrash ...too much output! 13:29:39 +ul 00000000000 13:29:46 ^ul 00000000000 13:29:47 ...bad insn! 13:29:59 how would you push a ( or a ) on the stack? 13:30:00 can't 13:30:04 +ul (alive?)S 13:30:05 alive? 13:30:05 i should really get me some kebab 13:30:23 ehird, hm ok 13:30:37 a Encloses the top element of the stack in a pair of parentheses. <-- ah 13:30:42 no 13:30:46 that doesn't let you get unbalanced parentheses 13:30:48 just a => (a) 13:30:49 ah right 13:30:54 which you can already do 13:31:00 (foo)a == ((foo)) 13:31:02 ehird, so how would you simulate a string with unbalanced ( ) in? 13:31:06 can't 13:31:12 ehird, so you can't output that? 13:31:16 nope. 13:31:24 Ah, not bf-complete then 13:31:25 AnMaster: simulating strings is quite complicated in general 13:32:00 That 'crashcrashcrash...' output is what I was hoping for. Well, actually I was expecting it to crash in some way, since it's an infinite loop; the cycle-counter would've stopped it at some point, but... 13:32:02 i mean, you cannot exactly use the actual strings as strings 13:32:08 if you want to be able to do something with them 13:32:25 Hmm, maybe the cycle-counter exit goes to the "out of stack" message accidentally or something. 13:32:57 ^ul (::^):^ 13:33:03 +ul (::^):^ 13:33:05 hm 13:33:19 shouldn't they say out of stack or did I misunderstand? 13:33:20 That's still no output. 13:33:22 ...too much memory used! 13:33:25 ah 13:33:27 Well, there's that. 13:33:32 ^show 13:33:33 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 foo 13:33:39 It's not "out of stack"; that one is stack underflow, actually. 13:33:41 fungot didn't say anything though 13:33:41 AnMaster: as for the " popular engineering audience" ( although nobody else has that as their whole fnord 03:58, 30 march 2007 ( utc)'" with all due respect, it embraced a much broader category of theory than just the appearance of fnord, 13:33:51 It's a bit work-in-progress. 13:33:54 right 13:34:57 ^ul (:^):^ 13:35:01 fizzie, "stack underflow"? Hm wouldn't it keep duplicating all the time? 13:35:17 * AnMaster tries to work it out 13:35:17 Yes, I mean, the "out of stack" message means "stack underflow". 13:35:23 ah 13:35:30 ^ul ^ 13:35:30 ...out of stack! 13:35:32 right 13:35:39 hi ais523 13:35:47 +ul (:^):^ 13:35:48 ...out of time! 13:35:49 hi 13:36:02 It's funny that the cycle-counter stoppage -- which I think happens with (:^):^ -- doesn't say anything. 13:36:36 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Self-interpreter <-- hahah 13:36:42 that is so cheating 13:36:57 yeah 13:37:04 ^ul ("")S 13:37:04 "" 13:37:06 hm 13:37:12 wait 13:37:14 ^ul (""")S 13:37:14 """ 13:37:16 err 13:37:20 well 13:37:22 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Reserved_characters <-- ??? 13:37:33 i'd say ^ is the self-interpreter, and not really cheating. 13:37:33 it seems to say that " should be quoted with "? 13:37:43 well cheating in that it's just an eval 13:37:44 AnMaster: well, yes 13:37:49 but everyone ignores that rule, even me 13:37:54 so I should remove it from the language some time 13:37:56 ^ul ("[]")S 13:37:56 "[]" 13:38:00 I see 13:38:55 ais523, how the heck do you do flow control in underload? 13:39:06 What the... now I get "bad insn!" out of ^. 13:39:11 AnMaster: generally by generating code and doign ^ 13:39:14 *doing ^ 13:39:38 -!- deveah has joined. 13:39:50 Am I having the same version here... 13:39:51 ais523, what would you use for an "if top value of stack is a, do foo, otherwise do bar" 13:39:53 or such 13:40:00 ^ul ((foo)S)^ 13:40:11 for instance to run code iff TOS is 0, you can do :(code here)~(!())~^^^ 13:40:12 That gives me "bad insn" locally. I think I messed something up. 13:40:42 ais523, how does that make it conditional? 13:40:57 ais523: won't that run it N times where N is the number? 13:41:02 oklopol: no 13:41:06 because I'm not running it N times 13:41:10 but 0 to the power N time 13:41:11 *times 13:41:19 and 0 to the power 0 is 1, but 0 to the power anything else is 0 13:41:30 damn, it's that simple?!? 13:41:35 ais523, I can't figure out how ":(code here)~(!())~^^^" works 13:41:45 i wrote an isZero yesterday, and it was a lot longer 13:42:48 but well, in a language like underload, there's either a reeeeeally simple way, or you have to actually go through the logic, which results in tons of code 13:42:58 before the first ^ in that... stack would be "value code !() value"? 13:43:17 huh 13:43:48 ais523, isn't that ! run unconditionally? 13:44:05 well, it puts the code underneath 0 underneath the number that you're depending on 13:44:09 +ul (!())(:::***)^ 13:44:11 +ul (!())(:::***)^S 13:44:12 !()!()!()!() 13:44:13 then it evaluates the number you're depending on and makes that many copies of 0 13:44:21 if it makes any copies of 0, they eliminate the (code here) and replace it with the null string 13:44:25 then you run either the code here, or the null string 13:44:25 +ul (!())(!())^S 13:44:27 nope 13:44:35 because it might itself have been eliminated 13:44:37 ais523, wait, where does it make copies? 13:44:39 basically, if the TOS is (!()), the (code here) runs 13:44:43 if the TOS is a positive number, the (code here) doesn't 13:44:45 so it's equivalent to if(!x) { codehere; } 13:44:47 AnMaster: the number itself makes copies 13:44:49 that's how Underload numbers work 13:44:52 ah 13:44:53 0 makes 0 copies of the TOS 13:44:54 1 makes 1 copy 13:44:57 2 makes 2 copies 13:44:59 and so on 13:45:18 ais523, I can't see it mentioned on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload ? 13:45:27 they aren't built into the lang 13:45:31 it's just the normal way to define numbers 13:45:34 oh that type of number... 13:45:38 +ul (!())()^S 13:45:38 !() 13:45:41 right 13:45:43 (!()) () (:*) (::**) (:::***) (::::****) and so on 13:45:51 +ul (!())(!())^S 13:46:01 oh, right, of course that's 1 13:46:03 oklopol: null string is the correct output there 13:46:09 0 to the power 0 is 1... 13:46:09 ais523, so... is underload actually tc? 13:46:13 AnMaster: yes 13:46:18 I have an ski to Underload compiler 13:46:24 and a BF-minus-input to Underload compiler 13:46:29 yeah, it was just my "oh empty input something's wrong" reflex 13:46:30 also where did 0 to the power of 0 get into it? 13:46:45 +ul (!())(!())^S <--- calculate 0 to the power 0 13:46:51 oh 13:47:09 AnMaster: what made you think Underload wasn't TC? 13:47:17 I picked the commands very carefully to make it a tarpit 13:47:28 ais523, just that I couldn't figure out non-trivial flow control 13:47:45 ais523: 0^0 is indeed 1, but when exponentiation is done like that, i don't automatically trust it works on the corner cases 13:47:48 +ul (::::****)(::::****)^S 13:47:48 ::::****::::****::::****::::****::::**** 13:47:50 hm? 13:47:51 flow control is interesting in Underload, but very neat once you get used to it 13:48:02 not everyone even defines 0^0 as 1 13:48:11 ais523, also you can't do "bf minus input", you can't output unbalanced () after all 13:48:15 well, but Church numerals have 0^0 as 0 13:48:20 AnMaster: I output them as ? 13:48:24 ah 13:48:25 different character set... 13:48:35 I define 0^0 as 0^^(0^0) 13:48:40 also, when 0 is defined as "make 0 copies" 13:48:45 ais523, still I'd argue that isn't "bf-complete except input" 13:48:48 then it makes intuitive sense for 0 to the power 0 to be 1 13:48:59 AnMaster: Can your BF implementation output klingon characters? 13:49:04 Wow, there was an utter bug in ^. 13:49:05 No? It's not output-complete then. 13:49:07 ^reload 13:49:07 Reloaded. 13:49:08 AnMaster: BF-complete except input and output of some characters, are you happy now? 13:49:18 ehird, well yes, I just output the bytes needed 13:49:23 for the unicode or whatever 13:49:28 ais523, yes :) 13:49:29 AnMaster: Klingon is not in unicode. 13:49:31 Try again. 13:49:52 ^ul ((meh)S)^ 13:49:52 meh 13:49:57 ehird, well if it doesn't have a code point then it could be hard. And that wasn't the point 13:50:01 I never said "output complete" 13:50:05 I said "bf complete" 13:50:14 AnMaster: The character set that underload uses happens to not have the code point that ( and ) are on. 13:50:18 Also, BF does not define the output character set. 13:50:31 AnMaster: http://paste.eso-std.org/b 13:50:33 ^ul (:^):^ 13:50:34 ...out of time! 13:50:35 indeed it doesn't. it just allows you to output any value between 0 and 255 13:50:38 inclusive 13:50:42 that's my compiler 13:50:54 Hey, the out-of-timeity works. 13:50:59 written in JS 13:51:04 ^ul ((crash)S:^):^ 13:51:04 crashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashc 13:51:11 ais523, I suggest a pastebin that doesn't result in a download dialog next time ;P 13:51:14 fungot: Are you still alive after that? 13:51:15 fizzie: the politically based content of the section is to be barefoot and pregnant, augmented, pregnant and augmented), the rotational kinetic energy: i will change the introduction accordingly. user:barnaby dawsonbarnaby dawson 09:16, 24 july 2006 ( utc 13:51:17 AnMaster: That is intentional. 13:51:18 Strange. 13:51:30 ehird, oh? why? 13:51:45 AnMaster: so your editor does the syntax highlighting 13:51:45 AnMaster: Your editor is a better syntax-highlighter & code navigator than some web script. 13:51:56 My browser, at least, when I click, opens it directly in my editor. 13:52:08 so do both the ones I've tried 13:52:09 ehird, I'd just like to view it raw in web browser, no highlighting 13:52:15 although Firefox goes via a dialog box 13:52:17 and when I open it I gets a html page 13:52:19 very strange 13:52:24 oh wait 13:52:26 it is indeed 13:52:29 AnMaster: Why do you want to view it raw in a web browser? 13:52:31 It's code. 13:52:38 Don't you want to read code how you configured emacs to do it? 13:52:48 If not, why not? What do you use instead? 13:53:01 ehird, ? I just like a raw text view 13:53:17 I normally only use minimal level of syntax highlighting 13:53:25 AnMaster: Then open it in a raw text editor. 13:53:27 Say, cat(1). 13:53:42 Do whatever you'd do to read code normally. You know more about that than a website does. 13:53:55 If you configure your browser properly, it'll open in what you want. 13:54:09 ehird, what if I want it to open in firefox? ;P 13:54:12 If you configure your browser properly <--- I suspect only about 3 people have done that... 13:54:14 How wouldI do that 13:54:21 would I* 13:54:28 AnMaster: You'd configure open with -> Firefox. 13:54:32 But why do you want to read code in firefox? 13:54:41 why not? 13:54:43 What makes it more superior than, say, gedit, for unhighlighted text/ 13:54:46 Or kate, or whatever. 13:54:47 well, I loaded it in Firefox 13:54:49 so as to be able to run it 13:54:50 Why is it superior? 13:54:51 It's not. 13:54:55 It's not in any way. 13:55:00 ehird, it means no need to change to another program 13:55:09 just viewing it quickly in the same app is faster 13:55:16 AnMaster: The fact that your desktop environment is hostile to multitasking is not my problem, sorry. 13:55:32 why do you think it is? 13:55:37 I just prefer this workflow 13:55:43 no need to get angry over it 13:55:47 I'm not angry. 13:56:06 I'm merely stating that the only reason you want to view it in firefox is because your system apparently cannot handle easy usage of more than one application at once. 13:56:07 ehird, idea. offer a ?mode=raw 13:56:14 AnMaster: No. 13:56:18 why not? 13:56:24 Because there is no justification for it. 13:56:32 ehird, the reason is that I prefer it that way 13:56:40 AnMaster: Then configure _your_ client to use it that way. 13:56:43 It is not a server issue. 13:57:11 i'm used to just looking at things in ff, and not having to click on an okay-button; not sure AnMaster is comfortable with saying pressing the button is just too hard, i most certainly am. 13:57:27 very well I recommend pastebin.ca or rafb.net/paste or paste.lisp.org/new 13:57:28 :) 13:57:39 AnMaster: Unlikely to happen, as both I and ais523 prefer it that way. 13:59:31 ais523, see /msg btw 13:59:56 someone msg me too! 14:00:20 nah nevermind i'll go buy some food -> 14:02:32 AnMaster: that's interesting... I'd argue that doing something that's both utterly unexpected and technically correct is correct behaviour for an ESO pastebin 14:02:53 um 14:02:55 context plz. 14:03:09 ehird: AnMaster told me not to paste on eso-std.org because he didn't want to read pastes there 14:03:26 ais523: please stop talking in #esoteric, i don't want to read your messages here 14:03:29 thank you 14:03:40 well, not quite like that 14:03:44 he said that if I did he wouldn't read them 14:03:52 ahh, boycotting 14:03:57 what an excellent idea 14:03:57 which is more reasonable than what I accidentally portrayed him as saying... 14:04:16 and I said "probably" 14:04:19 "I don't want to configure my client to be reasonable, therefore the website is at fault, therefore I am extorting you not to use it" 14:04:30 ehird: the problem here is that nobody's client is reasonable 14:04:34 mine is 14:04:36 it works absolutely fine 14:04:37 thus your request that people use a reasonable client is unreasonable 14:04:44 and i didn't even need to configure it 14:04:50 so at least one person's client is reasonable. 14:04:54 over here, Firefox puts up a dialog box, Konq downloads directly to editor without a prompt 14:05:09 My browser does the konq behaviour. 14:05:11 Which is reasonable. 14:05:13 however, working like that is not how AnMaster wants it to work, obviosuly 14:05:13 You click a link, the document appears. 14:05:24 Why obviously? What is the problem with getting a document up when you request for it? 14:06:01 I suppose it's a similar argument as a page obnoxiously opening in a new window 14:06:11 Not really. 14:06:15 well in konq it opens inline kwrite, which is horrible IMO 14:06:22 AnMaster: So configure it. 14:06:24 inline Kate over here 14:06:26 and I normally end up using ff because it works better 14:06:28 and Kate isn't horrible IMO 14:06:42 ais523, kate is a bit better, but I prefer emacs most of the time 14:07:02 Kate is one of the better designed-for-GUI editors I know 14:07:05 AnMaster: In the time it's taking you to tell ais523 to stop using it and to tell me to break it, you could have configured it 50 times over. 14:07:05 and with just syntax highlight of keywords (bold) and comments (blue) 14:07:10 Emacs is still a console application really 14:07:24 and Kate's syntax highlighter is really good IME 14:07:27 ais523, well that is what I use it as (emacs in console) 14:07:32 about as good as Emacs' 14:07:40 * ais523 tries opening paste.eso-std.org/b in w3m 14:07:48 ais523, well it lacks a way to script it 14:07:51 kate lacks options 14:08:12 hmm... w3m just displays it inline, just like AnMaster asked 14:08:27 (because Content-Disposition: isn't in the spec, IIRC) 14:08:38 yes it is 14:08:48 http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2183.txt 14:08:51 ah, ok 14:08:59 august 1997 14:09:18 ok, so Microsoft are just-about catching up to it now then? 14:09:20 sorry, bad joke 14:09:30 they haven't managed html4 yet. 14:09:39 they have almost 14:09:40 hmm, that's later. 14:24:50 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:25:12 Hm how easy is it to golf using scheme? 14:25:59 AnMaster: it's 20th on Anagolf 14:26:08 ah interesting 14:26:14 which implies slightly harder than in BASIC, but slightly easier than in Io 14:26:34 ais523, don't know either of those languages, but how many are there on that list in total? 14:26:45 63, but some of them are esolangs 14:27:11 GolfScript is winning ofc 14:27:28 ais523, anagolf.com? 14:27:37 golf.shinh.org 14:27:44 it's a good place to practice programming too, btw 14:27:52 even though many of the problems are buggy or cheatable 14:28:00 1GolfScript heh 14:28:25 (define (x y)(define c 0)(lambda ()(set! c (+ c y)) c))(define a (x 2)) 14:28:31 any way to golf that further? 14:28:45 using (define d define) seems to make it longer actually 14:29:21 the existence of a set! in there implies you possibly aren't doing it the right way 14:29:41 ais523, I'm making a counter 14:30:06 even so, would passing it as an argument to everything monad-style be shorter or longer? 14:30:08 non-golfed version was (define make-counter-adder (lambda (x) (define counter 0) (lambda () (set! counter (+ counter x)) counter))) 14:30:26 for the function 14:30:39 ais523, and I was just checking for how golfable it was 14:31:30 ais523, anyway how would you suggest that, with the same resulting function signature for the constructed functions 14:31:44 they wouldn't have the same signature, that's the whole point... 14:31:51 hm right 14:32:30 ais523, so you suggest building functions like (whatever value) then? 14:32:34 oldvalue that is 14:34:43 (define (x y)(lambda (z)(+ z y))) 14:34:52 (define a (x 3)) 14:34:53 (a (a 4)) 14:34:53 10 14:34:54 hm 14:34:54 wait. 14:35:09 Is AnMaster trying tto learn scheme? 14:35:13 ehird, no I'm not 14:35:15 read up 14:35:23 I'm evaluating how golfable it is 14:35:28 ehird: he's trying to golf Scheme 14:35:37 ah. 14:35:40 it's not that golfable 14:35:41 ais523, rather: checking how golfable it is 14:35:43 common lisp is very golfable 14:35:50 ah interesting 14:35:55 due to its myriad of short-named functions and extra syntax up the wazoo 14:36:00 but scheme is too minimal to be golfed effectively 14:36:18 what's match-digit in Perl regexen? 14:36:51 ais523: dunno. 14:36:57 /\d/, I assume. 14:37:58 if anyone's wondering why most of the users there seem to be japanese (in their names & the language used in the descriptions and such) it's because 1. shinh is japanese 2. ruby has its largest userbase in japan 3. and golfing also seems to be really popular in japan 14:37:59 go figure 14:38:11 the engrish gives it a nice touch, though. 14:38:41 http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?echo wtf? Perl cat is 7 chars long? 14:38:43 Longer than I expected. 14:39:01 it's a command-line option in Perl 14:39:16 so it's actually only 1 char long in a practical Perl one-liner 14:39:24 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:39:25 but Anagolf doesn't let you specify command line args 14:39:27 #!perl -p 14:39:29 :-P 14:39:58 hi all 14:40:27 ehird, awk one is apperently of length 1 14:40:27 heh 14:40:37 the char is the space 14:40:40 as awk behaves like that by default 14:40:42 oh wait 14:40:42 ah right 14:40:43 shorter perl one 14:40:45 newline 14:40:50 #!cat 14:40:51 wait, no 14:40:53 ehird: cat is 2 chars in HOMESPRING, IIRC 14:40:54 exec is disabled 14:40:57 dot neline 14:40:58 and it'll need a full path 14:41:00 *dot newline 14:41:05 hm 14:41:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit). 14:41:08 bash 2 chars? 14:41:12 * AnMaster considers 14:41:17 dd 14:41:26 AnMaster: dd 14:41:27 two in VI too 14:41:28 ZZ 14:41:38 oh so exec is enabled for bash 14:41:40 not pure bash 14:41:47 duh 14:41:49 yep, bash is allowed to exec 14:43:06 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:43:07 5 for befunge? hm.... ~,#@ 14:43:10 that is 4 14:44:22 wb ais523 14:44:25 AnMaster: submit it 14:44:32 says fail, odd 14:44:32 note that it's -93 14:44:37 it works locally 14:44:43 AnMaster: it tells you what your prorgam outputted 14:44:45 and what was expected 14:44:47 below the fail message 14:44:51 no output 14:44:53 huh 14:45:13 does it work with -93? 14:45:20 ah 14:45:20 AnMaster: timeout 14:45:23 your program never exits 14:45:26 yes it does 14:45:31 since ~ reflects on EOF 14:45:33 then it takes more than 3 seconds to execute 14:45:36 so it will hit @ 14:45:39 after wrapping 14:45:55 AnMaster: what is your program, and to do what? 14:46:05 ais523, befunge cat: 14:46:10 ~,#@ 14:46:23 however anagolf thinks it fails to output 14:46:24 AnMaster: ~ doesn't reflect on EOF in Befunge-93 14:46:31 ais523, hm good question 14:46:33 it inputs -1 instead, IIRC 14:46:53 well it only said befunge, not befunge-93, they should clarify it then 14:46:59 AnMaster: i asked 14:47:01 like five times 14:47:03 DOES IT WORK WITH -93 14:47:09 ehird, as far as I know 14:47:10 also, BEFUNGE in common parlance MEANS BEFUNGE-93 14:47:11 it should 14:47:19 AnMaster: when i asked, i meant TEST IT 14:48:08 ais523, it is not mentioned in http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/doc/befunge93.html 14:48:17 so undefined for 93 14:48:29 well then I would expect -1 on EOF, that's what undefined stuff normally ends up doing 14:49:50 Hm how can C++ version be longer than C version? After all you should save one char in the includes by doing instead of 14:49:52 weird 14:50:08 because it'll use actual c++, probably 14:50:09 (std::) 14:50:24 ehird, but you can use C headers from inside C++ 14:50:31 and? 14:50:34 so nobody thought of that 14:50:40 heh 14:50:41 why not submit your shorter version? 14:50:42 * AnMaster considers 14:50:45 I will 14:51:20 -!- fungot has joined. 14:51:35 * ehird considers writing overengineered, well-indented, commented, meaningful and easy-to-read code to anagolf just to make people go wtf when they see me at the bottom of the rankings 14:51:47 100 line hello world? you bet! 14:51:53 Also should put printf in the 'std' namespace. 14:51:59 ah right 14:52:04 and C++ needs void in main() 14:52:06 so yeah 14:52:08 won't wrok 14:52:09 work* 14:52:17 tada 14:52:18 :-P 14:52:25 My Underload interpreter is full of bugs. :/ 14:52:31 it's funny, anagolf shows that ruby actually beats perl a lot of the time 14:52:33 ^ul (:^):^ 14:52:33 ...out of time! 14:52:35 for golfing 14:52:48 perl generally beats it for just-regex kind of stuff, though 14:52:57 ^ul ((................)~:^):^ 14:52:57 ...too much stack! 14:53:26 Hmm, the limits might be a bit too tight now. Set them with RC/Funge, while fungot's actually running on cfunge. 14:53:27 fizzie: it would be interesting to see that the number of grades drop, the number of people in society actually behave in a rational, but more explicitly in his interviews, fergusson indicates that it was closed. 14:53:37 ^ul (((................)!)~*:^):^ 14:53:39 ...out of time! 14:53:41 http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Life+game/fsystem/1194358586&rb An amazing Game of Life. 14:53:54 Oh, wait. 14:53:57 That's a cheat. 14:53:58 :-P 14:56:10 ehird, what language is that in? 14:56:14 ruby. 14:56:16 but it is a cheat 14:56:21 how is it a cheat? 14:56:23 it only works for the inputs specifically tested 14:56:37 it's just some clever compression along with a condition on the input 14:56:39 hm randomized inputs would be better 14:56:46 impossible 14:56:52 challenges are user-submitted 14:56:58 well, technically you could enter a program that prints inputs 14:57:00 but that's way more work 14:57:03 besides 14:57:10 people specifically mark them as cheats, generally 14:57:16 they're still clever, for their compression 14:57:23 well it could still be possible, say, random-string random-number 14:57:25 in some way 14:57:28 http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Life+game/fsystem/1194358586&rb An amazing Game of Life. <- what language is this? 14:57:29 how. 14:57:34 Slereah_: Ruby, but it's a cheat 14:57:41 How does it cheat? 14:57:46 Slereah_, read up 14:57:48 It only works for the inputs that are tested. 14:57:51 (Gee, deja vu) 14:58:07 Oh. 14:58:10 ehird, if it was me asking the second time you would just have told me to read scrollback 14:58:24 AnMaster: No, I wouldn't, I'd have said the exact same thing while snarking about deja vu. 14:58:31 I onyl say that when you actually word the question differently. 14:58:36 But I was amused as he said the exact same thing. 14:59:01 ehird, the question was worded differently 14:59:07 Barely. 14:59:08 "is it" != "does it" 14:59:21 [[what language is this?]] 14:59:25 [[what language is that in?]] 14:59:35 ehird, again a bit different 14:59:40 Barely. 14:59:44 for both yes 15:00:30 Running "(((................)!)~*:^):^" under RC/Funge gives me an "unterminated (" error; I guess it's again some sort of fixed-maximum-size-in-STRN thing. 15:00:56 fizzie, well cfunge have fixed max too, limited by size_t 15:01:03 ;P 15:01:09 That's a bit different from a fixed maximum of 1000, though. 15:01:19 1000? What a silly max 15:01:30 should report it as a bug 15:01:31 ais523: btw your thutubot ul has bugs with {}, in case that's not intended 15:01:44 +ul ((}))S 15:01:45 (=)} 15:01:54 ^ul ((}))S 15:01:54 (}) 15:02:09 ehird, btw creating a random generation system is quite easy 15:02:16 you need something like a reverse regex 15:02:23 AnMaster: Not. Easy. For. The. Submitting. Users. 15:02:39 http://golf.shinh.org/mkprob.html = simple as hell and a low barrier to entry means they get submitted a lot. 15:02:52 Also, cheats are accepted, generally. Just as long as they're marked as such. 15:03:23 ehird: one option would be to have a secret test case 15:03:37 ah yes 15:03:39 oerjan: except then if you had a bug in your submission you wouldn't be able to figure out what the problem is. 15:03:44 = less submissions. 15:04:10 however I don't consider something like: \rand[A-Z]{3,4} or such in a input format hard 15:04:22 for the submitter 15:04:27 AnMaster: Yes, it is, because they haev to learn it. 15:04:31 Context free grammars are easier to use as generators and somewhat easier to understand... 15:04:35 Right now, they can think of a problem, describe it in english, and give a few examples. 15:04:38 And submit. that's it. 15:04:49 No coding or anything involved, just give some examples, say what you mean, and you're done. 15:05:11 Additionally, submitters also have to learn how the generator works, so they know what to code for 15:05:13 in your system 15:05:22 ehird, well it isn't really hard, you need one command \rand or whatever, followed by a range a-zA-Z0-9 or whatever in [], followed by how many chars 15:05:38 and the site is for coders obviously 15:05:45 You lost me at the part where you raised the barrier to entry by making me learn something knew, then testing it, making sure there aren't bugs, then finally submitting it. 15:05:58 It's a lot easier to check for bugs in input->output pairs. 15:05:58 A lot. 15:06:03 Even now, people still get it worng 15:06:08 and have to have shinh delete the broken ones. 15:06:19 heh strange 15:06:34 I've got it wrong before, it's not hard to mess up. 15:06:44 you don't test locally first? 15:07:30 you're missing what i mean 15:07:39 often your script itself is buggy 15:07:42 that generates the cases 15:09:11 ehird, so how hard is it to make cat. \rand[a-zA-Z0-9]{1,100} -> \1 15:09:22 compared to 15:09:24 foo -> foo 15:09:25 asdashdaksd 15:09:25 åsdasd 15:09:26 -> 15:09:29 asdashdaksd 15:09:32 åsdasd? 15:09:34 Very hard. 15:09:45 I would happily submit my version, not yours. 15:10:02 I guess regex doesn't come naturally to you then. 15:10:09 Yes, it does. 15:10:22 ais523: oh you already noted 15:10:28 Does anyone feel like explaining to AnMaster how he's missing the point? I kind of think his brain might be a closed-world logical system. 15:10:33 Tricky things, those. 15:10:37 you're both wrong 15:10:53 oklopol: everyone's always wrong, including you 15:10:59 nuh-uh! 15:11:04 -!- jix has joined. 15:11:05 oklopol: it's true! 15:11:11 NO :< 15:11:11 oklopol, so what do you suggest? 15:11:12 oerjan: no, you're wrong 15:11:21 ehird: you are _so_ right 15:11:26 oerjan: suuuuuure 15:11:45 fungot: Who's right? 15:11:46 fizzie: this nickname is offensive to me as ive been told by 3 doctors i can never again fnord im certain you can imagine. i suggest: 15:11:57 aww... 15:11:59 LOL 15:12:02 fungot's fnord capability was removed 15:12:02 ehird: ok, this debate seems to be no sil code for alsatian. fnord ( user fnord) 15:12:07 so now he's upset that he's still called fungot 15:12:08 ehird: the article is disputed, or restore the tag. i believe a site with professional, crisp clear photos and illustrations would be proper for the new manager being adam chapman and series 10 fnord. the name of an illyrian tribe called the fnord page, and the grace budd image is in compliance with wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. do not simply insert a blank template on an image page. 15:12:11 as fungot's hallmark is fnording 15:12:12 ehird: in light of the resolution of the failed rfa and my proposal to fix it up some? fnord 06:22, 29 january 2008 ( utc)/small!-- template:unsignedip 15:12:15 shut up fungot 15:12:15 ehird: major points are appropriately cited. 15:12:31 Heh, he's a real Wikipedian. 15:12:48 ehird, I agree that a non-programmer could easily mess up that generation, but anyone that can program (which I assume anagolf users are capable of) can easily understand it 15:12:51 ais523: replace all the words in your wikipedia signature with fnord 15:12:52 doooooo it 15:13:18 ais523: replace all the words in your wikipedia signature with <- with what? 15:13:41 Slereah_: i dunno lol 15:13:41 Slereah_: yay 15:14:13 Slereah_, with "fnord"? 15:14:19 AnMaster: with ""? 15:14:19 What? 15:14:39 are you filtering that word? 15:14:42 AnMaster: inside joke 15:14:49 dronf 15:15:01 Wikipedia "fnord" article has the explanation, though. 15:15:04 Must go. 15:15:11 AnMaster: an empty message? huh? 15:15:42 AnMaster does not know what it means 15:15:49 Slereah_: What what means? 15:15:51 ehird: i don't know there was something backward about it 15:15:54 I'm googling now 15:15:57 oerjan: yeah, it's odd 15:16:01 AnMaster: fizzie said wikipedia 15:16:16 ehird : "it" 15:16:29 oh no he said it 15:16:32 Slereah_: gee, not knowing what "it" means? 15:16:35 what a retard :| 15:16:41 that's a basic word in english! 15:16:42 Heh. 15:16:43 wb ais523 15:17:04 ARE YOU DONE GOOGLING ANMASTER 15:17:16 I'm reading on wikipedia since several minutes yes 15:17:29 reading WHAT on wikipedia?! 15:17:44 http://xrl.us/oux4b 15:17:49 ehird : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-goat_sexual_intercourse 15:17:56 Slereah_: Oh, okay. 15:18:02 I was scared it'd be something ... weird. 15:18:06 ehird, no Slereah_ isn't correct 15:18:14 AnMaster: O RLY 15:18:14 ehird, see http://xrl.us/oux4b 15:18:26 That article is weird 15:18:33 It's full of syntaxic weirdness 15:18:39 yeah 15:18:39 Like... WORDS MISSING D: 15:18:43 "is the typographic representation" 15:18:46 The interjection "" 15:18:49 "To see the means to be" 15:18:54 Slereah_, see the url in the addressbar 15:18:57 ehird, you too 15:18:58 :P 15:19:05 Huh, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 15:19:09 Did someone vandalize the main page to that? 15:19:21 ehird, no it is an easter egg in mediawiki 15:19:27 Weird shit. 15:19:39 Heh. 15:19:42 ehird: what are you talking about? 15:19:47 I read Illuminatus once. 15:19:54 ais523, e is being silly 15:19:55 I probably won't read it again. 15:19:57 it looks normal to me... 15:20:08 It's a classic, but really, it's a terrible read 15:20:18 It's over a thousand pages and the plot goes everywhere 15:20:34 ais523, yes he is being silly 15:20:48 ais523, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fnord#The_Illuminatus.21_Trilogy explains it 15:21:06 I think ais523 might just know. 15:21:09 The point is he was d/c'd. 15:21:23 ehird, yes so I tried to help him catch up 15:21:54 I@m still here 15:22:00 although I'v ebeen having huge connection trouble 15:22:39 ais523 submits 98B of Perl for Ranking __REVENGE__, ranking #1 (10000pts). 15:22:42 -- #anagol 15:24:02 GO ANAL 15:24:07 afk. food 15:24:41 ais523 submits 97B of Perl for Ranking __REVENGE__, ranking #1 (10000pts). 15:24:41 *g* 15:25:45 chomp,$a++,print$b{/(\d+)$/,$1}||=$a," $_ 15:25:45 "for sort{(split/ /,$b)[-1]<=>(split/ /,$a)[-1]}<> 15:26:09 also, I got it down to 93b 15:26:12 but that isn't 1st 15:26:14 it's 4th 15:27:21 ais523 submits 93B of Perl for Ranking __REVENGE__, ranking #1 (10000pts). 15:27:56 is it randking within the lang, or something? 15:28:23 beware of the randking 15:28:29 he's totally unpredictable 15:29:18 ais523: yes 15:29:22 ranking within the lang, i think 15:35:19 down to 92b now 15:46:30 * ais523 is disappointed that there aren't more Perlists on anagolf atm 16:04:44 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:27:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:46:52 -!- ab5tract has joined. 16:56:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 17:03:56 -!- M0ny has joined. 17:04:37 plop 17:05:02 hi M0ny 17:05:42 hi 17:25:37 -!- LinuS has joined. 18:02:46 -!- Judofyr has joined. 18:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I've had experience with bad project names, and this isn't one. 18:16:51 perfect topic 18:17:38 optbot, destroy lament 18:17:39 Slereah_: nah 18:17:42 :( 18:18:59 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has joined. 18:20:15 -!- deveah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:27:51 haha 18:28:01 Slereah_, stop being evil 18:28:07 what's going on over here? 18:28:13 ais523, nothing much 18:28:34 ais523, I suggest you read scrollback, less than a screen since your last comment 18:28:44 I don't have scrollback, connection problems 18:28:50 thus the need to ask 18:28:53 ais523, well 5 lines even 18:28:58 * optbot has changed the topic to: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I've had experience with bad project names, and this isn't one 18:28:58 perfect topic 18:28:58 optbot, destroy lament 18:28:58 Slereah_: nah 18:28:58 :( 18:28:58 AnMaster: Same year as the Turing machine, IIRC. 18:28:58 AnMaster: "...and is not suitable for practical use." <-- i made an IRC bot in it 18:28:58 AnMaster: 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 18:29:02 ah, ok 18:29:35 hm the webserver yaws look nice 18:29:59 can't find any performance data however, and seems like docs are outdated 18:31:17 or rather, last comparison is for outdated versions 18:31:22 like apache 2.0.39 18:31:33 what I'm interested in is current yaws version and current lighttpd 18:31:36 all properly tuned 18:32:52 -!- Linus` has joined. 18:37:31 Multiple arbitrarily long lists of arbitrarily long strings are a bit annoying to keep in Funge-Space. Maybe I should have a limited number of slots for ignores. 18:37:45 fizzie, they aren't unlimited 18:38:22 Well, okay, there I can get by with limited string length. 18:38:30 fizzie, I think 005 on connect contains max lengths 18:38:31 iirc 18:38:38 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:38:52 fizzie, it varies between different servers 18:38:57 nicks are limited definitely 18:38:59 so are idents 18:39:02 not sure for hosts 18:39:07 I'm still not going to start parsing those numerics. 18:39:25 fizzie, anyway you can easily store them 18:39:44 you just need to decide where 18:39:49 and for number of slots 18:39:53 hm 18:40:05 Yes, if there is a fixed amount of rows there's no problem. 18:40:23 what about adding a buffer of 500 lines? 18:40:30 should be more than enough, 500 ignores 18:40:42 Yes, I guess so. 18:40:47 otherwise.. implement a malloc with SUBR ;P 18:40:58 or something 18:41:33 Maybe I should use REXP and have regular-expression ignores; now that'd be useless. (The "only one regular expression per X" thing is a bit annoying; is it even per IP or per interpreter or what?) 18:42:15 ais523, there? 18:42:19 yes 18:42:40 -!- LinuS has quit (No route to host). 18:42:44 ais523, I got no idea if this will affect you but previously funge loading in cfunge happened with char*, and unless there is a good reason I'm changing that to unsigned char* 18:42:55 this would affect the loading code that intercal uses too 18:42:57 no, it won't make a difference 18:43:02 as I load from a string literal 18:43:18 maybe it needs a cast 18:43:20 ais523, same routine 18:43:28 but the great thing about C is you can cast anything to/from unsigned char*... 18:43:33 ais523, since I mmap() then load it as a string literal ;P 18:43:37 brb phone 18:45:25 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:48:23 back 18:49:38 Deewiant, question: Funge-98 specs doesn't say if i, o or initial code loading should be signed or unsigned right? 18:49:44 funge space itself is signed yes 18:49:53 unsigned 18:50:01 Deewiant, where does it say so? 18:50:04 hmm... native char would be more obvious 18:50:09 char is signed in some ABIs, unsigned in others 18:50:20 where it talks about "the meaning of char #217 is always char #217 to funge" or whatever 18:50:37 Deewiant, mycology doesn't test that I think 18:50:51 or? 18:50:53 yes, but it depends on it in some fingerprint 18:51:00 it's on my list of things to add 18:51:05 hrrm 18:52:05 Deewiant, FILE certainly doesn't say either signed or unsigned 18:52:10 pretty sure about that 18:52:21 of course it doesn't, it's one of Mike's :-P 18:52:33 why on earth would it say something like that :-P 18:53:25 heh 18:53:25 I read the spec as "ASCII characters 0-127 are mapped to funge numbers 0-127, characters with high bit set are implementation-defined.". 18:53:55 Ilari, what specific bit do you refer to? 18:54:14 Characters 128-255 (that is, those with bit 7 set). 18:54:37 ais523, current bzr version is now using unsigned, even if the function you use to load 18:54:45 may need a cast to prevent a warning 18:55:45 Ilari, that wording can't be found in Funge-98? 18:55:51 I searched 18:57:38 oh I think FILE is signed in cfunge heh, well would be non-trivial to fix and require lots of changes elsewhere 18:57:55 or rather FILE uses the system's native signed-ness 18:58:12 That is, 0-127 must be encoded as characters 0-127, but any other value can be encoded as anything (that involves at least one extended character, so it is uniquely decodeable). 18:58:55 Or, actually, anything can be encoded as anything, but 0-127 have specified decodings (and meanings). 18:59:12 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 18:59:18 Ilari, yes but where in the Funge-98 spec does it say so? I can't find anything backing your claim in it 19:00:16 SOCK W and R use unsigned char. 19:00:57 Hmm... Actually reading it again it seems to say that file read as sequence of codepoints (encoded in unspecified manner) and those codepoint numbers are used as numbers in funge-space. 19:01:37 for efunge I seem to read it as unsigned big endian (though the latter doesn't matter since it reads one byte at a time) 19:02:07 Ilari, as long as I don't need to parse utf8 I'm happy 19:02:42 and for any RC/Funge fingerprint I will just argue that due to being so poorly defined I can do whatever I want anyway ;P 19:03:12 AnMaster: I think having cfunge be internally inconsistent about what it uses where is a bad idea 19:03:34 In fact I interpret the spec that doing UTF-8 decoding on source file and using codepoint values as number sequence fed to parser would be allowed... 19:04:09 Deewiant, no it is just a case of push_gnirts using char* 19:04:12 err 19:04:27 stack_push_string 19:04:28 I mean 19:04:36 push_gnirts is the name used in efunge... 19:04:54 Deewiant, so I would need a push_unsigned_string 19:05:11 AnMaster: no, you just need to change it to unsigned char* 19:05:29 Deewiant, no I will need to add various casts too 19:05:40 why 19:06:02 Deewiant, -Wall -Wextra -Wa-lot-more -Wactually-think-warnings-are-useful 19:06:12 why would you ever need to cast anything 19:06:12 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/funge-space/funge-space.c: In function 'fungespace_load': 19:06:12 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/funge-space/funge-space.c:376: warning: pointer targets in passing argument 1 of 'load_string' differ in signedness 19:06:14 stuff like that 19:06:24 you should never have any char except unsigned char 19:06:29 anywhere 19:06:30 ever 19:06:33 Deewiant, yes I do, from system 19:06:41 since I use libc 19:06:43 which uses char* 19:06:48 which may or may not be signed 19:06:53 POS library >:-/ 19:06:56 POS? 19:07:03 well, just cast away then 19:07:04 well it's libc 19:07:12 which is kind of needed 19:08:01 Deewiant, hm... does STRN expect stuff to be cast to char* before being written/read from funge space 19:08:11 considering you may loose precision that way 19:08:18 considering the name of the fingerprint I'd say yes 19:08:27 lose* 19:08:53 Anyway, the current way I read the spec is that sequence of bytes is translated to sequence of numbers in some undefined manner and only meaning of that number sequence is defined. 19:09:25 Deewiant, stack_(push|pop)_string are used everywhere anything says 0"gnirts" in any fingerprint or core instruction 19:09:33 meaning they all end up as char there 19:10:13 ah. Deewiant have you considered non-ASCII? 19:10:20 what about such platforms? 19:10:27 Hm I think they will need to remap stuff 19:10:29 Ilari: I read it as being defined by the platform and not the interpreter 19:10:38 AnMaster: what do you mean have I considered them 19:10:43 CCBI originally used UTF-8 19:10:54 heh 19:11:01 Deewiant, I meant EBIC or whatever that one was 19:11:10 which aren't even ASCII compatible in any way 19:11:10 what about EBCDIC 19:11:32 ah that was the name 19:11:52 Deewiant, well a-f is a continuous range there iirc but not a-z 19:11:56 just as an examplke 19:11:57 example* 19:12:00 yes and what's your point 19:23:38 Deewiant, I end up adding casts in nearly every case due to that I happen to use libc :P 19:25:42 doesn't either cast implicitly to the other 19:27:54 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:28:53 Deewiant, with warnings 19:29:31 "loss of precision" or what nonsense? 19:29:39 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/funge-space/funge-space.c: In function 'fungespace_load': 19:29:40 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/funge-space/funge-space.c:376: warning: pointer targets in passing argument 1 of 'load_string' differ in signedness 19:29:43 was an eample 19:29:45 example* 19:30:59 pointer targets differ in signedness can actually play hell in the comparisons of loops, I sort-of understand why it warns people about those 19:31:02 just use -Wno-pointer-sign or cast 19:31:10 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:31:12 ais523, yes it does in many cases 19:31:20 for example writing out to funge space 19:31:34 there would have been some nasty bugs in STRN without those warnings 19:31:44 so Deewiant is plain wrong in thinking they are harmless 19:31:50 I did not say they are harmless 19:33:58 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:40:47 -!- Slereah has joined. 19:45:51 Deewiant, what about stdin? 19:46:00 as in ~& and various fingerprints 19:46:06 signed or unsigned? 19:47:33 Deewiant, well? 19:51:23 everything unsigned ever 19:53:48 Deewiant, impossible for those since they return signed 19:53:52 system routines 19:54:16 Deewiant, also funge-space itself is signed 19:54:19 no, they return impl-defined 19:54:36 and it's not impossible, just cast 19:54:37 Deewiant, yes char* 19:54:38 true 19:54:55 Deewiant, tell me where in the spec it says so 19:55:02 nowhere 19:55:06 it's my opinion 19:55:23 I think whoever thought up signed chars was an idiot, or then I'm grossly misinformed about something 19:55:27 ah so mycology won't test it apart from loading? 19:55:35 Deewiant, um, same for signed integers? 19:55:40 and signed shorts? 19:55:53 how could I test stdin signedness anyway 19:56:12 AnMaster: chars are not integers, and neither are bytes. 19:56:13 Re ~, the corresponding C standard library function -- getchar()/fgetc() -- returns unsigned characters. 19:56:14 Deewiant, hm true, maybe echo some char 19:56:38 fizzie, fgets() fputs() return/take char* 19:56:45 and I tend to do bulk IO 19:56:59 rather than one at a time 19:57:59 But ~ does not do bulk IO; and fgets/fputs are not very "bulk IO" either, being line-based; and for the fwrite()/fread() calls you can specify the interpretation yourself, since they take a void *. 20:00:14 hah I just reduced time for mycology a lot 20:00:21 by not using fflush() as often 20:00:25 what, even further? 20:00:26 Anyway, if you want to "act like the C library does", ~ ought to return a unsigned char, since that's what the C library function which does the same thing returns. Doesn't much matter how you implement it, of course. 20:00:28 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:00:45 ais523, yes 20:00:48 (Disclaimer: I haven't really been following the whole conversation.) 20:01:13 ais523, before I did fflush() on input ~& and newline in output 20:01:26 now it is changed to only do it when it actually reads input 20:01:34 just before the call to cf_getline 20:01:56 so if input can be served from buffer it won't call fflush() either 20:02:04 and it won't call it on every newline 20:03:03 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:03:26 ais523, and that shaves off almost 0.020 seconds 20:03:51 You mean you fflush() stdout before reading input, to make prompts and such visible? 20:03:58 fizzie, yes 20:04:05 Okay. 20:04:20 fizzie, and I used to do it more often than needed 20:04:22 "fflush() on input" just sounded a bit strange. 20:04:45 I used to follow the same algorithm as ccbi claim(ed?) it uses in --help 20:06:23 fizzie, I have a non-public script here to build a special build for speed runs, for mycology that script actually doesn't make a lot of difference to -O3 -fweb 20:06:32 but for life.bf it does for some reason 20:06:35 interesting 20:06:41 anyway life.bf is even faster now 20:07:13 AnMaster: -fweb's implied by funroll loops, in gcc 20:07:39 ais523, well not by -O3 according to docs for gcc 4.1.2 at least 20:07:41 iirc 20:07:44 no 20:07:57 are you not funrolling loops for a reason, btw? 20:08:00 ais523, and my special build system use profile feedback 20:08:12 -fprofile-use 20:08:23 yes, and thanks for all the help it gave me in the ICFP, I survived until about 3 rounds from the end 20:08:30 ais523, well except they can slow down sometimes due to cache locality iirc 20:08:40 I'm pretty sure I have seen examples of that 20:09:44 -!- asiekierka has joined. 20:11:58 ais523, http://omploader.org/vdjY2 <-- it is about 3 times as fast when I'm not using xvidcap btw.... 20:12:07 it's an *.mpeg 20:12:18 showing how fast cfunge is at life of game 20:12:38 hmm... why not just have used ttyrec? 20:12:40 of course I'm unable to test ccbi under same conditions due to it being in D 20:12:45 ais523, ttyrec? Hm 20:12:50 * AnMaster looks for that package 20:13:04 it's mostly used to record games of text-based games like NetHack 20:13:43 ais523, what about speed? My screen only shows a blur for those bits on screen when xvidcap isn't running 20:13:54 so I guess faster than this monitor's response time 20:14:05 AnMaster: there are players that can slow it down 20:14:09 and rewind, and so on 20:14:17 ais523, well I want to show how fast it actually is 20:14:24 look up ipbt, although it seems not to be packaged it compiles from source well 20:15:05 ais523, compared to ccbi and rc/funge 20:15:05 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:15:22 actually I should probably publish the profiled building script 20:15:50 http://rafb.net/p/diPMmW23.html 20:16:06 be aware of that that requires mycology to exist in a specific place 20:16:07 and so on 20:16:26 and you need to change CHOSTFLAGS 20:16:53 oh and gnu toolchain needed 20:16:58 at least for ld 20:17:02 apart from gcc 20:17:07 it is really meant for local usage 20:17:16 I'm a bit curious about how fast thutubot's +ul is, compared to fungot's ^ul. (Although the latter probably has some bugs left.) 20:17:16 fizzie: 14:58, april 24, 2007.. 24.166.157.216 ( talk block) 20:17:19 but I assume some people may find it interesting 20:17:35 fizzie: Thutu is inherently slow, although the algorithm it uses is a pretty fast one for Thutu 20:17:37 fizzie, well that may depend on if you compile it using some way like the one I linked 20:17:44 also, Thutu programs run slower the more they store in memory 20:17:48 ais523: befunge isn't exactly inherently fast either ;-) 20:17:53 so it'll depend on all sorts of things 20:17:58 Deewiant: it is by esolang standards 20:18:02 fizzie, be aware of that if that cause bugs it is probably not high priority to fiux 20:18:03 fix* 20:18:05 at least it isn't a factor of n slower 20:18:31 fungot: busy signing fizzie's messages for em? 20:18:31 ais523: ' ' fnord 20:18:44 heh 20:18:56 fungot, what do you mean with ' '? 20:18:57 AnMaster: finally, in the process of being verified right now that are very real in my personal experience. when i first stumbled across 141's edits, i can't see why you would include this personal rant. what you two have been doing business with each other. 20:19:01 and the fnord too 20:19:11 AnMaster: '' is mediawiki markup for italic, ''' for bold 20:19:15 they confuse fungot quite a lot 20:19:15 ais523: i've noticed this before whilst listening to the answer by the minister for health and fnord. 20:19:28 health and fnord 20:19:29 hehehee 20:19:34 fungot: In what country they have a minister for health and fnord? 20:19:35 fizzie: yes, that is, levinson went to kish, disappeared, had on your behalf countless official pleas and responses from the u.s. and canadian newspapers, using fnord connected to the hydrogen station series. i also had to change it to the article. 20:19:48 fizzie, do they* 20:19:58 I really like this fungot database, btw 20:19:58 ais523: ( 4) http://news.com.com/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord/ bios/ overview/ atpd683.html french open ( roland fnord, fnord 20:20:06 hahah 20:20:11 it's very Wikipedia-like 20:20:26 ais523, except the fnords I guess? 20:20:31 well, yes 20:20:36 And all that comes from just 1/256th of the talk pages. 20:22:44 In case someone's interested, http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot_articles.txt has the list of articles used. (The names have had "Talk:" removed, and the titles have been filenamized; spaces to _, slashes to @, and all kinds of more special characters escaped with +nn or +unnnn.) 20:22:44 fizzie: if there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this article. 20:23:15 yes, fizzie, fair use rationales are verry important 20:23:32 hahaha 20:23:37 Yes, but for a plain-text list of filenames from my own disk? 20:26:13 fungot: So, tell me about... the ZX Spectrum character set. You should know something about it, it's there in the list. 20:26:13 fizzie: fnord) refers to ashoka maurya as a maha-asura i.e. a few wrote, fnord, which 20:26:53 Maybe it's not really very useful as a fact-bot. 20:27:32 I never mistook fungot for a fact-bot... 20:27:33 ais523: i removed the mention of any other fnord was one of the templates at wikipedia:fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. do not simply insert a blank template on an image page. 20:27:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:27:53 It is _very_ concerned about the fair use of images. 20:27:53 although it seems to care a lot about fair-use policy 20:28:12 OTOH, optbot is a factbot sometimes, just you don't normally get the fact you want 20:28:13 ais523: no 20:28:21 or indeed its context 20:28:51 hehe 20:29:03 yeah if you actually want a fact bot you would need to consider input 20:29:15 ^ul (optbot)S 20:29:15 optbot 20:29:16 ais523: i'm taking an apathetic stance 20:29:16 fungot: if you were, you could always try $ cat | sed 'regular exp here' :> 20:29:16 optbot: bought by sun microsystems. citation sun press room fnord/ fnord fnord the encyclopaedia britannica: a dictionary of arts, sciences, commerce and law. faculties of medicine ( 1936), co-author of the ugly american. ' ' 20:29:16 fungot: !ps 20:29:17 optbot: i think the song " clementine" or anything about huckleberry hound. why he might decide to do this)? thanks! fnord fnord --user:protiousgeorge ( user talk:protioustalk) 01:44, 8 september 2008 ( utc 20:29:17 fungot: 55) 20:29:18 optbot: i changed the 2007 population data in the infobox, but i note a couple things still stick out. first, the idea that " things lose value because they cease to exist". if we can make a wide speculation like that without knowing. there is also an improvement over an fnord body of text that is published elsewhere under different terms, that does not give the base of the log. small—preceding wikipedia:signaturesunsigned co 20:29:19 fungot: this is my point. We all know that a halting solver is impossible to do exactly. It'll either keep going and going, only halted by a timeout (which would be inaccurate, perhaps), or it'll halt and return true. (but we all know that, so I just wasted effort typing all this out.) 20:29:19 o:optbot: meaning that the western asian people known as " dom", as the 20:29:19 fungot: hmm 20:29:21 optbot: i also think the article also has a strong reputation as a remedy against me. if you can't convince each other, right? fnord! 20:29:21 fungot: SEXAY 20:29:24 optbot: i've put in this picture of the coronation. i assume that it is common to use the cbs name. in the same manner as other south slavs are, although the apa does not recognize this syndrome and convened a panel that rejected the existence of 20:29:24 fungot: how're you doing with the Basil puzzle? 20:29:25 Hey. 20:29:27 wait 20:29:28 optbot: i am currently investigating fnord and permanent hair removal as a permanent solution to this problem. the problem is that faith and belief are fnord acts and can not ever be like today. there is already someone by that name, which should be relevant for this page? 20:29:28 fungot: that would make continuations rather worthless 20:29:29 what 20:29:32 optbot: please go to :image:logo ulivo fnord image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with wp:fufair use. 20:29:32 fungot: missed a . 20:29:33 kill it 20:29:35 -!- fungot has left (?). 20:29:41 that's not meant to happen... 20:29:43 Who has brokeded the loop-checker? 20:29:43 fizzie, rate limit broken 20:29:49 Well, me, most likely, but still. 20:29:51 fizzie, you I guess 20:30:01 fizzie, hm UNIT 20:30:07 Befunge Unit testing 20:30:08 :D 20:30:14 no clue how the heck to do that 20:30:23 using Befunge Units, of course 20:30:29 ais523, oh details? 20:30:39 well, I just made them up, and there aren't any details yet 20:30:50 but probably something like mini-funge 20:32:51 ais523, :/ 20:33:22 * ais523 ponders the concept of compiling BackFlip into Funge 20:33:23 I did mess around the loop-checker when updating fungot not to use NULL any more, but I can't see how I would've broken it. 20:33:23 ais523, continuous(sp?) integration for Funge? 20:33:36 well, no, it was just a flippant pun, really 20:33:42 but you spelt continuous correctly 20:34:13 Funge IDE with project files and so on 20:34:33 * AnMaster considers Visual Studio Funge# 20:34:34 :( 20:34:48 that would be truly horrible 20:39:22 -!- ab5tract has quit. 20:41:16 That's curious, the loop-checker seems to work when single-stepping through it. 20:42:01 Maybe a large negative number has somehow ended up there, although I don't see how, since it should reset to zero whenever someone talks to fungot. 20:42:06 -!- fungot has joined. 20:42:13 fungot: First I say something to you. 20:42:13 fizzie: respectfully, fnord ( ancestral form of modern iranian fnord fnord, fnord 20:42:18 ^choo optbot 20:42:19 optbot ptbot tbot bot ot t 20:42:19 fizzie: allowed_execs["__import__"] = None 20:42:19 fungot: 2 20:42:20 optbot: they needed cars, fnord and fnord) and all stocky muscle could easily tip the scale at close to 1600 pounds. ( note: women rowers have close to the disparity of sub-saharn africa would have the slight advantage of leaving the existing links to " hull speed". 20:42:20 fungot: maxima 20:42:20 optbot: this page is going to be long, and needs to be discussed, it should be deleted, not merged. but new england flood of may 2006 has the fnord nest with the fnord 20:42:21 fungot: !befunge http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/projects/befunge93/eg/hello2.bf 20:42:21 optbot: includes almost every naval aircraft ever used. the major ideas need a page number from those books cited. ideally one should use the binary prefixes. if you have 20:42:22 fungot: afk 20:42:22 optbot: 3. unlike some fighters whose fnord decreases after their prime, kung fu will relate to chinese martial arts page and the pic fnord changing. i dont think that this article be renamed but there was no official release date. fnord listed it as simply the " horn" and " impute". is this a cognate of the spanish fnord fnord? 20:42:23 fungot: I forget that methods are non-first-class in java 20:42:30 worked? 20:42:31 Okay, there, it stopped. 20:42:53 The same thing should really be happening even if the underload interp is used to initiate the loop. 20:43:11 fungot: I'm just resetting the limit again. 20:43:11 fizzie: i finally tracked down some related publications by searching directly for professor fnord fnord. 20:43:14 fizzie, you could have attached gdb and dumped the location using call if you had a debug (-O0) build 20:43:23 ^ul (optbot)S 20:43:23 optbot 20:43:24 fizzie: pymacs or something 20:43:24 fungot: exactly 20:43:24 optbot: an annular hurricane. i think we can use the compressed air at 70 psi to operate the points for the fnord web 20:43:24 fungot: What time is i 20:43:25 optbot: it should be named in english, using both terms. --user:jondeljondel 09:49, 24 june 2008 ( utc 20:43:25 fungot: and then you'll never be able to use the lambda special form!! 20:43:25 optbot: the region was originally inhabited by the fnord show syndicated on the n all over the place. 20:43:26 fungot: it wasn't 20:43:26 optbot: my apologies for the tone of the series' fnord. 20:43:26 fungot: that's the 'official' name 20:43:32 Okay, it stopped again. 20:43:50 Maybe I had a botched copy running on the box where the IRCed fungot sits. 20:43:50 fizzie: this article could be expanded. user:badagnanibadagnani 21:01, 27 september 2006 ( utc 20:44:06 fizzie, in a debug build: call fungespace_dump() 20:44:07 iirc 20:44:16 but that won't exist in a release build 20:44:25 it just dumps it raw to stdout btw 20:44:55 fizzie, wait you store it negative? 20:45:04 fungespace_dump dumps from 0,0 to edge 20:45:11 so only in positive space 20:45:26 Yes, the counter is at x=0, y=-15; and the last nick who spoke to it is in x=1..., y=-15. 20:47:04 ah hm 20:47:13 fizzie, that is kind of "tricky" to reach in cfunge 20:47:31 I would just add a print where I needed it in the code 20:47:34 fungespace_get(vector_create_ref(x, y))) 20:47:41 but vector_create_ref is a macro 20:47:50 you end up with 20:48:10 fungespace_get(& (fungeVector){x, y}) or such iirc 20:48:19 that is a pointer to a struct on stack 20:48:33 which is tricky to call from gdb to put it mildly 20:48:44 -!- Corun has joined. 20:49:09 -!- fungot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:49:14 Whoopsie. 20:49:32 fizzie, eh? 20:53:10 -!- fungot has joined. 20:53:13 Just experimenting. 20:53:18 fizzie, oh? 20:53:22 fungot: Hello there. 20:53:23 fizzie: he claims it on his web site? fnord 16:09, 28 december 2007 ( utc))) which quotes these formulae and confirms that this is supposed to be assuming good faith here? please suggest any changes that you think would be a better type of article for a good article but it is always called " le fnord di figaro," w.a. mozart; the title role in " the other side has not been updated in years, not since their first creation of the 20:53:33 ^code 0ad00f-gU0": ciretose# GSMVIRP"AAN51p08P0851g21gW$ 20:53:42 fizzie, huh? 20:53:44 Hmm, that should've worked. 20:53:54 ciretose# ? 20:54:01 #esoteric, of course. 20:54:07 ah 20:54:19 But it just hung up this time. Meh, worked locally, too. 20:54:29 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:54:30 fizzie, buggy I guess 20:54:36 you need to be less random 20:54:52 easier to track it down then 20:55:08 I probably should be using the same interpreter for local testing and actual running, too. 20:55:08 lol @ ciretose, that sounds coool 20:55:49 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 20:55:59 about the putting the actual befunge unlambda on the bot, isn't there a fingerprint for some kinda procedures? 20:56:39 There's SUBR which has call/return instructions. 20:57:20 wellllllllllllll 20:57:36 i'm off to hesburger to read my book -> 20:57:54 Heh, yes: that ^code call indeed works with RC/Funge, but doesn't with cfunge. 20:58:09 Oh, right. 20:58:18 It's *again* the SUBR 'A' thing. :p 20:58:33 are you saying it's become a *blind*funge? 20:59:02 The current SUBR fingerprint has an 'A' instruction which masks the STRN 'A' I was trying to use there. 20:59:15 I think it's also in a new RC/Funge-98 like that, but my build is a bit old. 20:59:40 or maybe a desertfunge, but that's probably even harder to get 21:00:00 looks like you need to mess aobut with FING... 21:00:27 fizzie, last rc/funge would have it too 21:00:37 99% sure 21:01:08 fizzie, and older rc/funge may have slightly different semantics for FING on empty stacks 21:02:30 Well, I no longer do anything involving empty stacks except using Z to push things on them, which is pretty standard stuff. 21:02:47 -!- fungot has joined. 21:02:55 Workarounded it a bit. 21:03:00 ^code 0ad00f-gU0": ciretose# GSMVIRP"AAN51p08P0851g21gW$ 21:03:00 0 21:03:17 That "simple and easy-to-remember command" can be used to check the counter. 21:03:24 fungot: I say something. 21:03:26 fizzie: ( undent) right, that's why put it in more clear english: a thought i experience proves its own existence, but it doesn't explain the play. the explaination given here does not explain, contrary to your assertion, why the fnord sexism? people need to stop changing the date. i bought it on that day, and fire was on it by night, in long grass, between fnord, fnord 21:03:28 fungot: I say something else. 21:03:29 fizzie: apart from the whole confusion he writes we have two sets of evidence: " the british bulldog" fnord boy smith, " fnord и fnord " fnord fnord fnord 21:03:30 ^code 0ad00f-gU0": ciretose# GSMVIRP"AAN51p08P0851g21gW$ 21:03:31 1 21:04:07 fizzie, what about adding a command to actually do that? 21:04:30 fizzie, shouldn't it be 2 there? 21:04:53 It starts with 0 when it sets the "who spoke last" thing. 21:05:22 Then it does "++counter > 3" to check whether it should stop. 21:05:45 ^code 0ad10f-G0": ciretose# GSMVIRP"AAN51p08P0851g21gW$ 21:05:45 fizzie 21:05:48 That's who spoke last. 21:06:21 Yes, I guess I could add some sort of funge-space fetch commands to accompany ^code. Not sure if I'll bother, though. 21:08:47 Actually I think there's a slight wrap-around problem: if you speak to the bot something like 2^31 times (without anyone else speaking in-between) it'll again start answering to you, and actually continue answering until the counter again reaches positive numbers. 21:09:01 (Don't try this on-channel, please.) 21:09:49 heh 21:10:56 hahhaha 21:11:58 fungot: test 21:11:59 lament: everything in the article to decide. fnord 22:11, 17 january 2008 ( utc) copyedit finished. good luck. cheers, fnord 19:04, 9 december 2006 ( utc) 21:12:00 fungot: test 21:12:01 lament: question: are arepas known outside of broadcasting fnord. the center is located about miles 10 miles west of kusinagar. the place abounded in peepul trees and there were also presuppositions unique to discourse: 21:12:03 fungot: test 21:12:04 lament: guys, please don't hesitate to add information, but it seems like that's been resolved ( at least in the part of the states to decide who to regulate and how much of this has been going around vandalizing pages by putting stuff about hen fap in the third paragraph, which i not yet can see as " at least ten thousand years ago, which is the primary source document of islamic international law, there is no 21:12:05 fungot: test 21:12:06 lament: i decided to add the link yesterday, but wasn't aware of any comparative studies that have proven the fnord of coats and pants etc do not require such grounds. furthermore, the article ' of course christ didn't actually look as christian art suggested.' but we don't ' ' ' 21:12:08 fungot: test 21:12:09 uh-oh 21:12:16 hey lament, can you kick lament? 21:12:17 he's spamming 21:12:19 ... wait 21:12:31 did i kill it? :( 21:12:37 No, it's in the ignore mode now. 21:12:40 oh 21:12:53 damn, i was hoping to wrap around 21:12:56 But when you say that thing 2^31-4 more times, it'll again answer. 21:13:12 Unless someone goes and speaks to the bot before you can manage to do it. 21:13:39 lol 21:13:50 lament: welp, guess you'd better start. 21:14:18 hmm 21:14:23 wonder if you could do it with mechanical turk 21:14:40 fizzie: oh, i see 21:14:43 rate limit 21:14:43 hm 21:14:45 fungot: test 21:14:46 fungot: test 21:14:47 that would take ages 21:14:48 fungot: test 21:14:56 i can say it about twice per second 21:15:05 so it'll only take 2^30 seconds 21:16:12 lament, around 34 years? 21:16:41 today, children, we see AnMaster not finding something funny funny. 21:16:50 ehird, I was 21:16:52 you weren't 21:17:03 'that would take ages' = ruins the joke by explaining it. 21:17:28 http://www.mezzacotta.net/singles/jokes_explained_explained.php 21:17:47 yes, explaining jokes is funny, but only if you do it in a funny way 21:17:51 Oh, it's only 34 years? Maybe I need to use a 64-bit build to avoid that problem, then. 21:17:59 (being extremely literal, serious and in-depth) 21:17:59 fizzie, hahah 21:18:27 ehird, also that link I gave do the same on a second level :) 21:43:44 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:47:39 -!- jix has joined. 21:54:42 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:55:11 -!- jix has joined. 22:02:51 -!- mental has joined. 22:14:16 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:15:39 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:18:25 night, won't be reachable during most of tomorrow 22:32:05 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 22:46:32 Mmmmmmmmmmmmoxie. 22:46:40 Egad Moxie is good. 22:46:44 It's soooooooooooo good. 22:47:01 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:11:20 -!- M0ny has quit ("Hum... Hum..."). 23:23:28 -!- Linus` has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 23:39:01 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo. 23:47:55 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 23:56:37 -!- Corun has joined. 23:56:58 -!- oerjan has joined. 2008-10-25: 00:08:29 about the putting the actual befunge unlambda on the bot, isn't there a fingerprint for some kinda procedures? 00:08:58 gah, here i was about to get excited, until i remembered everyone is confusing unlambda and underload... 00:14:24 xD 00:14:57 i really deserve a kickban for that. 00:15:17 really what the fuck is so hard about it 00:15:21 underload 00:15:23 underload 00:15:31 it's an underload program 00:15:34 i program in underload 00:15:40 underload is this stack-based language 00:15:47 hi, have you ever considered trying underload 00:15:49 ? 00:15:57 underload is so much cooler than drugs 00:16:12 in soviet russia, the load is under you 00:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | the rest are the same. 00:16:34 +ul ((underload is)S:^):^ 00:16:35 underload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload is ...too much output! 00:16:40 argh 00:16:48 arghhh? 00:17:01 +ul ((underload is )S:^):^ there was a typo 00:17:02 underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is ...too much output! 00:17:35 btw. almost wrote one of my underloads as unlambda when writing those sentences 00:17:51 i don't get it. 00:18:03 there is really only one way to atone for this, you know. 00:18:18 you must write a fully-functional unlambda interpreter in befunge. 00:19:04 ski i can do no prob; unlambda may require some though 00:19:09 *thought 00:19:16 but, i'll consider it 00:19:23 * pikhq mutters 00:19:28 Liberty has died further. 00:19:35 how so? 00:19:50 US *border patrol* can now perform searches and seizures on anyone within 100 miles of the US border. 00:20:14 That covers the vast majority of the US population... 00:20:28 :DD 00:21:07 i wonder when pirate bay starts considering founding "the planet of freedom" on mars or something 00:22:19 Covers fully 2/3 of the US population, actually. 00:24:01 * oerjan vaguely recall something about the USA having a constitution that people are fond of throwing against such things 00:26:22 Nah, our current president has convinced enough of us to give it up that that doesn't happen much anymore. 00:28:11 Our current President is on record as saying that the Constitution is a 'god-damned piece of paper'. 00:28:35 * oerjan wonders if he meant the first word literally 00:28:41 Sounds like something a gold-standard idiot would say (about different paper :P ) 00:30:15 * oerjan suddenly realized "gold-standard" was _not_ a metaphor 00:30:29 No. No it was not :P 00:55:44 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 02:41:30 -!- immibis has joined. 02:41:44 -!- immibis has quit (Client Quit). 02:47:11 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 03:04:17 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 03:35:22 -!- olsner has joined. 04:03:08 -!- pikhq has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:03:09 -!- comex has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:04:19 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:04:19 -!- comex has joined. 04:10:19 -!- omniscient_idiot has joined. 04:34:07 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 04:38:30 -!- immibis has joined. 05:30:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:33:11 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:57:00 hello people! :D 06:06:52 hello person! :D 06:10:01 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNQLmHKlmiE 06:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 1 megabyte is 1024Kb. 06:19:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:38:42 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Unisex."). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:25:48 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:12:27 -!- M0ny has joined. 09:13:03 plop 09:19:47 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. and dlte ur files. and email ths to). 09:25:46 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 10:06:41 -!- M0ny has quit ("Hum... Hum..."). 10:23:36 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 10:28:33 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:06:17 Deewiant, I think mycouser got a bug with odd input for char input 11:06:23 echo -e '2\0241\n2\n11\nto be or not to be\n' | ./cfunge ../mycology/mycouser.b98 11:06:27 that says: 11:06:34 Please input a character: UNDEF: got 161 '¡39 0 '' which is hopefully correct. 11:06:40 which looks wrong to me 11:07:14 hm 11:07:19 happens in ccbi too 11:08:55 actually hm I don't have last mycology 11:09:00 * AnMaster downloads last and tests 11:09:34 ah works with last 11:27:36 -!- Slereah_ has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:28:18 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:29:39 -!- Slereah has joined. 11:30:25 -!- M0ny has joined. 11:35:47 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:39:38 -!- Slereah has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:40:59 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:00:44 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I'll do a Markov chain of my nick: ihope_. 13:59:45 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:16:53 Anyone know if there's a way to have a permanent folder in /tmp? I'd like /tmp/downloads to always be there but clean itself when /tmp does. 14:41:10 So. 14:41:16 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:41:18 -!- ehird has joined. 14:41:20 Oops. 14:46:47 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 15:23:06 hey ais523 15:24:21 hi ehird 15:43:19 "Can't test o in linear text mode: i ignores spaces, no way to know from within standard Funge-98 whether they are output to file." 15:43:22 Hm it is possible 15:43:26 by being clever 15:43:28 cleaver* 15:43:36 and using binary input mode 15:43:39 to read it in 15:43:48 then you have to handle all the possible newline conventions 15:44:01 if there are spaces, it won't overwrite, if there aren't it will overwrite 15:47:40 -!- kar8nga has joined. 15:47:43 023575320 15:47:53 0235753287575320235753287535320 15:48:12 hmm... what are you doing? 15:48:24 also, lol at the topic 15:48:30 well, not a real lol 15:48:37 just an IRC-lol that makes no noise in real life 15:50:24 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 15:50:37 ais523: hummin' 15:50:49 ah, ok 15:51:03 i'm a bit tired, played world of goo all night 15:51:20 (i did finish the game, so it was time well used) 15:51:47 and no that's not a synonym for something perverted, it's a game 15:51:56 err not synonym 15:51:58 well anyway 15:52:14 basically you build things out of these balls of goo 15:52:24 and now i feel like what i type is falling. 15:52:45 to the right, because there's more weights there 15:53:26 *weight 15:53:32 i really have a problem with my s's. 16:02:52 -!- M0ny has quit ("reboot"). 16:06:33 -!- M0ny has joined. 16:31:26 -!- Slereah_ has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 16:31:26 -!- omniscient_idiot has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 16:31:26 -!- Judofyr has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 16:31:57 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 16:31:57 -!- omniscient_idiot has joined. 16:31:57 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:00:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:04:52 what the heck is a typed memory object. 17:06:11 posix_typed_mem_open manages to totally fail at explain what they are and what they are meant for 17:06:15 fails* 17:10:19 fail* 17:10:59 * oerjan sees a reference to an IEEE standard 17:12:19 AnMaster: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/basedefs/xbd_chap03.html#tag_03_418 17:13:19 it's not immensely clear though 17:16:34 oerjan, ah yes "fail", but I read what I had written as "posix_typed_mem_open manpage totally" instead of what I really wrote "posix_typed_mem_open manages to totally" 17:16:40 then fails would have been correct 17:17:28 oerjan, however I still got no clue what the typed memory * stuff is 17:17:51 it's part of the Advanced Realtime group of options, whatever that is 17:19:04 oerjan, yes I know what those are, there is some useful stuff in that group, for example very exact clocks and such 17:19:27 ah wait that one is just Realtime, not Advanced 17:21:40 http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/xsh_chap02_08.html#tag_02_08_03_04 17:23:18 http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/xrat/xsh_chap02.html#tag_03_02_08_15 17:23:52 the last one actually gives some clue i think 17:25:09 it seems to refer to _physical_ memory types 17:27:55 AnMaster: ^ 17:28:22 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:32:14 heh ok 17:39:03 hey guys 17:40:04 hello 17:41:05 yeah I read that 17:41:08 quite interesting 17:44:27 -!- Judofyr has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:44:27 -!- Slereah_ has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:44:27 -!- omniscient_idiot has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:45:03 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:45:03 -!- omniscient_idiot has joined. 17:45:03 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:45:25 -!- Judofyr has quit. 17:53:22 * AnMaster ponders multithreaded brainfuck 17:54:00 Brainfork. 17:54:22 no idea how to provide synchronisation in a way that fits with the language 17:54:31 Brainfork. 17:54:43 ehird, yes the name is good, but it would be shared memory 17:54:48 ... 17:54:52 I'm saying it already exists. 17:54:54 And it's called Brainfork. 17:54:55 AnMaster: ehird's trying to point out that it already exists 17:54:55 ehird, oh right 17:54:58 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfork 17:55:00 * AnMaster checks 17:56:07 hm the link is broken 17:56:10 for the website 17:58:45 afk 18:00:31 when the _web archive_ is borken too, it's time to take a break 18:09:47 oerjan, it certainly times out here 18:10:03 maybe google's cached version of the web archive version? :D 18:10:48 oerjan, however I wonder how to do synchronisation in brainfork... 18:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but below it?. 18:22:36 [[Intelligence agencies, using intelligent software, can screen the contents of e-mail with relative ease]]. 18:22:43 Dumb agencies need not apply as they only have dumb software. 18:26:21 AnMaster: i assume the tape is shared. moving the pointer to the right in one thread wouldn't make sense otherwise. although the phrasing is a bit weird. 18:26:45 -!- LinuS has joined. 18:27:13 oerjan, well I would implement it as: shared thread, + and - atomic, each thread got it's own pointer 18:27:33 output would be atomic too 18:27:52 yeah 18:27:54 afk 18:55:20 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 19:14:58 okokokokokokokokokokokoko 19:16:13 +ul (o)(~:S(ok)*~:^):^ 19:16:14 oookookokookokokookokokokookokokokokookokokokokokookokokokokokokookokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokokokokokokok ...too much output! 19:16:18 er 19:16:41 +ul ( o)(~:S(ko)*~:^):^ 19:16:42 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output! 19:17:13 better to be scared to half to death than to death half scared be to 19:17:49 * oerjan assumes that makes sense in finnish, or something 19:18:09 nah that was an american dad quote, sometimes i like to copypaste what i hear on channels. 19:18:53 aye 19:30:44 ais523, there? 19:32:34 about that POSIX for DOS thing (DJGPP or whatever it was) someone said it didn't support fork(), well I think POSIX kind of forbids that. "{CHILD_MAX} precludes the possibility of a "toy implementation", where there would only be one process." (quote from rationale for adding pid_t) 19:45:19 -!- atrapado has joined. 19:46:25 AnMaster: he is not there. 19:46:37 also. 19:46:41 fork() just always fails on djgpp 19:46:42 ehird, right, I had checked /whois, it didn't say away 19:46:48 CHILD_MAX is 1, presumably. 19:46:52 ehird, not allowed 19:46:57 AnMaster: Tough shit. 19:46:59 {CHILD_MAX} 19:47:00 Maximum number of simultaneous processes per real user ID. 19:47:00 Minimum Acceptable Value: {_POSIX_CHILD_MAX} 19:47:08 {_POSIX_CHILD_MAX} 19:47:08 Maximum number of simultaneous processes per real user ID. 19:47:08 Value: 25 19:47:21 AnMaster: Embedded systems will break that rule, anyway. 19:47:29 ehird, well I'm just quoting standards 19:47:46 AnMaster: Standards are irrelevant. 19:47:59 irrelevant for what? 19:48:07 Anything involving the real world. 19:48:29 that is your opinion 19:48:51 there is a good reason for standards, and if there were no standards no program would be portable, ever 19:49:06 Weird. See, people write portable things without standards all the time. 19:49:14 It's called testing on multiple platforms and you have to do it anyway. 19:49:59 ehird, so if C wasn't portable, and only existed for one platform, you would need to write polygots to get it working on multiple platforms 19:50:10 C once didn't have a standard. 19:50:17 People still wrote perfectly fine programs for it. 19:50:27 agreed, but it got one after a while. Which helped a lot 19:51:41 if you print a standard out on chocolate bars, you can eat it 19:51:44 how's that irrelevant 19:52:36 oklopol: True, true 19:52:40 oklopol, highly relevant, except you need a standard chocolate bar format for printing 19:52:56 AnMaster: well sure if you want to do some serious metaeating 19:52:57 I mean should be... Y4 (for Yum) 19:53:02 AnMaster: The point is that nobody actually gives half of a damn if DJGPP disobeys the standard by - gasp - giving the correct value. 19:56:55 -!- oerjan has quit ("Urbibus"). 19:57:56 Wait a second... 19:58:03 What is the command printing out the unix timestamp? 19:58:07 I cannot think of it for the life of me 19:58:44 date +%s 19:59:16 You'd think it'd be easier. huh. 19:59:33 ehird, note that %s is a commonly supported non-standard extension iirc 19:59:40 Hahaha. 19:59:41 POSIX date may not have such a command ;P 19:59:48 AnMaster: Aren't standards wonderful, mmhm? 20:00:25 122496122070678410976191059206867952173936457386 20:00:28 What a nice nonce! 20:00:28 in fact on a DeathPOSIX 9000 you would need to write a C program using time() to do it 20:00:49 ehird, that doesn't look like a current date... 20:00:50 Now to rewrite that in php. Fleargh. 20:00:54 $ date +%s 20:00:54 1224961128 20:00:58 AnMaster: It's timestamp + large amount of random data. 20:01:01 ah 20:01:02 Well, 16 bytesworth. 20:01:09 And to justify the php thing: i have no choice, relaly 20:01:10 what do you plan to use it for? 20:01:19 I'm modifying the phpMyID openid server to use pgp for authentication 20:01:23 and using the firegpg extension to do it 20:01:28 so it'll automatically sign the nonce that comes back 20:01:30 thus proving I'm me. 20:01:58 SCIENCE 20:02:02 * AnMaster considers 20:02:09 AnMaster: it's just like ssh authentication 20:02:20 mmm.. 20:02:25 server gives a nonce, browser auto-signs the nonce, server checks signing is correct, voila 20:02:37 Ofc, it's still protected by a passphrase. 20:02:40 Being a gpg key. 20:02:45 ehird, well I think php got functions for both time stamp and random, but I got no clue how good that prng is 20:02:54 AnMaster: I'm just going to read from /dev/random. 20:02:57 ah ok 20:11:32 * Sgeo gasps at http://pixelcomic.net/287.php 20:11:47 "Those employing applications written in high-level languages, such as C, Ada, or FORTRAN." (http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/xrat/port.html) 20:11:49 well 20:11:55 I wouldn't call C high level 20:11:59 I guess it is subjective 20:19:23 -!- kt3k has joined. 20:56:15 -!- Slereah has joined. 21:20:54 high level compared to assembly 21:20:59 but low level compared to prolog 21:23:21 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:28:28 Sgeo: what's to gasp at? it looks all blurry to me 21:29:16 The fact that there was an update 21:31:54 um, ok 21:32:18 I have known some of my comics go longer than that between updates 21:33:28 fizzie, do you use cfunge release or last bzr? 21:33:52 Only I'm planning a new release within a few days and I would need someone to test it on OS X 21:33:57 Argon Zark once went for over a year in the middle of a fast-paced action scene 21:34:24 SimonRC, what comic are you talking about? 21:35:08 um Argon Zark 21:36:05 since it started in 1997 it has managed a grand total of 77 updates 21:36:12 ah well 21:36:42 SimonRC, I usually read well updated ones 21:36:56 * AnMaster tries to remember for how long userfriendly have gone without an update 21:37:10 I think once or twice the *daily* comic have been late due to server issues 21:37:17 but no missing comics 21:37:30 sounds about right 21:37:31 irregular webcomic seems very very regular too 21:37:45 xkcd is regular, so is darth and droids 21:37:55 and those are all the webcomics I read 21:38:03 "Last" bzr, where "last" in this case means revno: 441, timestamp: Sun 2008-10-19 18:29:41 +0200. 21:38:14 fizzie, care to try out the very last? 21:38:24 there have been some changes that could cause issues 21:38:34 fizzie, please also report warnings, not just errors :) 21:39:02 (I know about a few warings in genx, but other than that there shouldn't be any assuming you aren't on gcc 4.2.x when you may get inline ones too) 21:39:08 the total to beat though is Doctor Fun, the first comic on the web (as distinct from the first web comic), which went for 10 years exactly with no misseed updates 21:39:27 oh and possible one about "possible infinite loop cannot be optimised" 21:39:31 (I recommend the archives' content: like Gary Larsson without the incomprehensible ones 21:39:38 How "within a few days" you want? I'd be using the OS X laptop on Monday next. I guess I could theoretically speaking set it up here, but I'm not sure I have electricity outlets comfortably reachable from this table. 21:39:51 I do *not* recomment the archives' form. 21:40:03 fizzie, I was thinking tomorrow evening or maybe Monday evening 21:40:33 Well, I could check the laptop still works, haven't booted it up lately. Maybe I'll try it now. 21:40:34 Sorry about the typing, Im' on a really crap connection here 21:40:48 fizzie, ah 21:40:52 fizzie, thanks a lot 21:41:08 awesome 21:41:09 my mod worked 21:41:14 gpg authentication with phpmyid 21:41:15 \o/ 21:41:19 fizzie, somehow I bet ehird won't help me checking if cfunge works on OS X 21:41:21 just a hunch 21:41:27 otherwise I would have asked him of course 21:41:41 (probably bst to start browsing here, I think: http://www.ibiblio.org/Dave/Dr-Fun/) 21:41:54 SimonRC, what is that comic about? 21:42:16 non-related single panels 21:42:26 AnMaster: I would help if I could compile it, which I imagine I can't.. 21:42:31 does the comic still update? 21:42:32 Tarball link please 21:42:34 AnMaster: No. 21:42:41 AnMaster: no 21:42:45 last updated 06, iirc. 21:43:07 ehird, well tarball, point is trying current bzr version, but I could export it to a tarball, will take a minute or two to fix 21:43:23 Thanks. I don't have bzr on here 21:43:25 (as nobody uses it :P) 21:43:45 ehird, Do you have cmake? 21:43:48 Btw. Anyone who wants to test: When you click 'Login' at http://elliott.hird.name.eso-std.org/id/, it should just say 'login failed'. Does it? 21:43:50 AnMaster: Yes. 21:43:50 I'm 100% it exists for OS X 21:43:55 great 21:44:16 Omploaded 'cfunge_r455.tar.bz2' to http://omploader.org/vdjly 21:44:30 LOL ... PHP6 is using a backslash as namespace seperator 21:44:36 so\ncool\nman 21:44:36 ehird, haha 21:44:48 wait \n or \? 21:44:53 \ 21:44:54 and why not : or . or such 21:44:59 those are like the common ones 21:45:04 and because the php team is a bunch of bumbling retards. 21:45:06 even / would work better than \ 21:45:43 ehird, I hope they don't get such a silly idea as prefixing it with [A-Z]:\ though.... I guess no one would be that mad 21:45:56 Hahaha 21:46:03 C:\Namespaces\NATURAL MAPPING\ 21:46:26 Well, that's pretty close to RDF (triples of URIs; base of the entire semantic web) and XML 21:46:32 ehird, nah, C:\ would be a too silly idea, no one outside this channel would think of such an idea 21:46:40 @prefix foaf: 21:46:48 a foaf:Person . 21:46:52 there, foaf:Person is shorthand for... 21:46:58 21:47:10 the analogy only works, though, if php code consists of multiple file paths 21:47:16 ... which I wouldn't be surprised at. :D 21:47:49 AnMaster: It compiled. 21:47:59 ehird, anyway cfunge should be easy to compile on OS X, some time ago I had access to a mac and even noted it worked when generating xcode project 21:48:01 Bunch of pedantic warnings, but that's just your code. 21:48:07 $ cmake .; make did it 21:48:13 ehird, well care to pastebin warnings? 21:48:16 didn't even read the readme :P 21:48:21 ehird, heh :) 21:48:22 AnMaster: stuff like 21:48:23 [[/Users/ehird/Desktop/cfunge_r455/src/fingerprints/STRN/STRN.c: In function ‘finger_STRN_itoa’: 21:48:26 [[/Users/ehird/Desktop/cfunge_r455/src/fingerprints/STRN/STRN.c: In function ‘finger_STRN_itoa’: 21:48:26 /Users/ehird/Desktop/cfunge_r455/src/fingerprints/STRN/STRN.c:242: warning: ISO C does not support the ‘q’ printf length modifier]] 21:48:30 blink 21:48:33 I don't use q 21:48:42 in fact, those are all the warnings apart from in genx 21:48:58 stringbuffer_append_printf(sb, "%" FUNGECELLPRI, n); 21:48:59 hm 21:49:02 huh 21:49:15 FUNGECELLPRI = "q", i assume. 21:49:34 ehird, PRId64 or PRId32 21:49:38 depending on cmake option 21:49:43 so PRId64 for you 21:49:48 AnMaster: I'll put a #warning in there to see 21:49:49 which comes from inttypes.h 21:49:54 which makes it "qd", probably. 21:50:00 Deewiant: ah, there. 21:50:07 Deewiant, yes but PRId64 is defined by standard 21:50:22 Yes, I also only get that 'q' printf length modifier. 21:50:24 so the implementation use a non-standard value for it 21:50:33 % ./cfunge examples/hello-concurrent1.b98 21:50:33 Hello world 21:50:36 fizzie, funny thing is, OS X is warning about it's own headers 21:50:47 no 21:50:51 since PRId64 comes from the system header inttypes.h 21:50:52 :P 21:50:56 it's warning because you specified a shitload of overly-pedantic compiler options. 21:50:57 and that is defined in C99 21:50:58 the funny thing is that C has no module system 21:51:06 so you can't know where the "q" came from. 21:51:12 [[./cfunge examples/pi2.bf 1.29s user 0.01s system 97% cpu 1.325 total]] 21:51:18 I'm sure GCC is full of hacks to figure stuff like that out. 21:51:19 Deewiant, well the pre-processor could trace it 21:51:26 AnMaster: overhead++ 21:51:42 that's not what the pre-processor is meant to do 21:51:50 Deewiant, hm true. 21:52:35 There's a comment in inttypes.h where it defines the 'q': "these could be -- "ll" -- but that doesn't work on 10.2, and these do". 21:52:45 also I have tested on freebsd 6.3 and Linux 2.6.(25|27) 21:52:51 fizzie, haha 21:53:07 Okay, so now I just need to: 1. Buy elliott.hird.name 2. write a FOAF document 3. ??? 4. Prophet 21:54:52 ehird, haha 21:55:13 why .name? I thought no one used that 21:55:32 AnMaster: Quite a few people do; the nice thing is that it gives me elliott@hird.name 21:55:43 I'm not actually going to use it for my -site-, just as a little identity thingy. 21:55:55 err, how do you get one from the hird one? 21:56:04 AnMaster: .name registrations are mostly at the third-level 21:56:07 ah 21:56:12 SURNAME.name for all common surnames is taken 21:56:24 and you can get NAME.SURNAME.name unrestricted, which also gives you NAME@SURNAME.name 21:56:34 ehird, for English ones only? 21:56:34 Ofc, you can get fdfgdfgdf.name, but not, say, smith.name. 21:56:35 or? 21:56:41 AnMaster: Why for english ones only? 21:56:45 wondering 21:56:54 AnMaster: Try it, foo.name will resolve if it's reserved ;-P 21:57:10 hah my surname doesn't resolve 21:57:19 AnMaster: I wouldn't say it's a common surname. :Lp 21:57:20 *:p 21:57:27 ehird, it isn't that uncommon in Sweden 21:57:46 Quick, buy it and resell subdomains on it for insane prices! 21:57:48 They seem to have mx0[1-5].nic.name doing the emails for those surname-level names. 21:58:04 fizzie: You just give them a forward address, I think. 21:58:10 ehird, well not that common either 21:58:15 So if my sitey-type-thingy is foobarbaz.org, then i'll just forward it to ehird@foobarbaz.org. 21:58:23 Although, wait. 21:58:26 You can send email from it too 21:58:32 So I guess it's kind of a proxy-servy-thingy. 21:58:39 You still use your mail server, but it goes through theres. 21:58:41 *theirs 21:59:06 ehird, the telephone search thingy lists 1000 hits (max 1000 hits shown) 21:59:08 Heh, kallasjoki.name doesn't resolve either. There's approximately ten of us in Finland, and approximately zero elsewhere. 21:59:11 not very helpful 21:59:24 fizzie: Well, considering everywhere else is Finland, that's a bit redundant. 21:59:27 (not per page of course) 22:00:29 It's amazing how little I had to change to get phpmyid to use pgp authentication. 22:00:46 I don't think I ended up touching anything outside of the one function. 22:01:13 According to the freely available statistics service thing (last updated 20.10.), there's 10 people (5 male, 5 female) who currently have the surname "Kallasjoki", "less than five" (it doesn't show the exact number in that case) who used to have it but changed, and 7 who are deceased. 22:01:29 -!- Judofyr has joined. 22:01:29 fizzie: Just a tiny single family, then? :-P 22:02:24 ehird: Well, it wasn't very many generations away when a predecessor decided to change it to "Kallasjoki" from "Kakkinen", which.. uh, is not a very good name. 22:02:40 There is even a street named after someone else with my surname in this town, sadly it includes the first name too, so I can't easily claim it was named after me ;) 22:02:43 Given that fi:kakka is approximately en:poop. 22:02:48 fizzie: LOL 22:02:53 Poopinen! 22:02:54 (And the -nen is a common diminutive suffix.) 22:02:58 Hahahahaha 22:03:07 Little Poopy 22:03:13 Yes, something like that. 22:03:18 Best surname ever. 22:03:25 elliott.littlepoopy.nae 22:03:26 *name 22:04:06 Also it's one letter away from being "kakkainen", which would have almost exactly the meaning "poopy", in the "covered with poop" sense. 22:04:34 There's a lot of people in the Lieksa graveyard with "Kakkinen" etched on their headstones. 22:04:39 hm was it ehird who suggested avoiding fork() to make it easier to port to windows? 22:04:43 or who was it 22:05:11 Me or Deewiant, likely. 22:05:21 (Actually the statistics thing says a total of 992 "Kakkinen"s in Finland -- 400 deceased, 386 former names, 206 current.) 22:05:22 I have the solution to the issue. 22:05:32 int posix_spawn(pid_t *restrict pid, const char *restrict path, 22:05:32 const posix_spawn_file_actions_t *file_actions, 22:05:32 const posix_spawnattr_t *restrict attrp, 22:05:32 char *const argv[restrict], char *const envp[restrict]); 22:05:38 ;P 22:06:06 however it is optional in POSIX 22:06:14 so I would need fork() as a fallback 22:06:24 * ehird kicks AnMaster 22:06:45 and yes I need something that can mess with fds to set up pipes on fd 3 and fd 4 for the child 22:07:05 so either pipe() fork() and dup2() or pipe() and posix_spawn() 22:07:12 I prefer the fork() solution 22:07:31 AnMaster: Just put an ifdef in for windows, srsly. :p 22:07:37 You'll have to learn like one winapi function. 22:07:48 ehird, for PERL? 22:08:01 likely that will exist on windows anyway 22:08:04 Yes. Just learn CreateProcessExtraUltra2000Deluxe, I mean, it's just one function. 22:08:12 ehird, you forgot Ex 22:08:17 no, Ex was part of Extr 22:08:18 aa 22:08:21 ah right 22:09:04 ehird, anyway I'm happily awaiting patch since I got nothing to test it on. 22:09:07 ;P 22:09:14 Just install VirtualBox or something. 22:09:21 ehird, and windows itself? 22:09:29 Pirate it. :-P 22:09:39 I don't do illegal stuff 22:09:48 (Unless you feel guilt in ripping off a few precious dollars microsoft.) 22:09:51 ^ from 22:09:53 ... 22:09:57 ^ from 22:10:01 ^ from 22:10:03 ^ from 22:10:03 what? 22:10:05 ^ from 22:10:10 AnMaster: Getting the 'from' in the right place. 22:10:21 no you wrapped from several times 22:10:32 proportional font <.< 22:10:39 ehird, I have monospace one 22:10:44 Yes, I guessed. 22:10:55 ehird: pervert! 22:11:08 ^from 22:11:08 SimonRC: Old fart! 22:11:11 that would be correct 22:11:47 ehird, you first "^ from" was under the "a" in "of a few" 22:11:57 the next one was way after the ) 22:12:22 AnMaster: I agree * 2 22:12:33 SimonRC, you use a proper font for irc? 22:12:34 :D 22:12:50 Excuse me for preferring to keep my eyes happy with proper font spacing and metrics. :p 22:13:34 ehird, you are pardoned if you don't do it again ;P 22:14:57 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 22:15:00 Re "Kakkinen", from what I've heard, *that* name came as a Finnishization of an old name "Gagge" -- I'm not quite sure of the spelling or meaning. I seem to recall someone saying it meant a "round, sort of a barrel-shaped person", but I can't seem to Google©®™ any good references. 22:15:42 fizzie, "kagge"? 22:15:53 assuming it may have been from Swedish 22:16:01 which seems likely 22:16:03 Yes, most of the names around here are. 22:16:15 Could be "Kagge" for all I know. 22:16:56 fizzie, which means stomach, often in the reference to round and oversized 22:17:08 if not always 22:17:12 Oh, okay. That sounds very likely. 22:17:21 fizzie, "ölkagge" 22:17:23 for example 22:17:57 English etymology dictionary for the word 'keg' gives "Swed. kagge, Norweg. kagge, a keg, a round mass or heap. Prob. named from its roundness." 22:18:18 well that too 22:18:23 Little Poopy Stomach 22:18:35 fizzie, however in modern usage it is used about fat stomach 22:18:37 mostly 22:18:48 I think it may actually refer to a round container in older usage 22:19:02 I can understand them changing the name from "a fat guy" to something else, but I *really* can't fathom why change it to "a poopy guy". 22:19:04 however it is not a word I use actively 22:19:33 fizzie, as I said in older usage it may actually mean a round container, for liquid iirc 22:19:41 like beer 22:19:55 and since you can get fat from that, I guess that is why it changed meaning 22:20:23 fizzie, as for "poopy" it may have meant something else back then 22:20:37 little fat poopy guy 22:20:37 :D 22:20:54 AnMaster: Well, the story I told was that the name was given to some ancestor of us in a Swedish army or other, and based on the physical resemblance to a keg, in the "barrel of liquid" sense. 22:20:55 ehird, no you can't use several meanings at once 22:21:00 AnMaster: Yes i can 22:21:08 fizzie, well would be fat then I guess ;P 22:21:11 * SimonRC never notivced the similarity of English cack and keg before now. 22:21:31 cack? 22:21:39 I don't have any good reference materials for Finnish language, I don't know how recent the "kakka" thing is. 22:21:59 fizzie, how do you manage "kk"? 22:22:33 to pronounce it I mean 22:22:34 Finnish is full of double-consonants. I'm not good at all in explaining pronunciation, though. 22:23:00 I mean Swedish use double consonants to make the vowel in front short, but we use ck not kk 22:23:03 ll though 22:23:35 oh and ch in one case 22:23:39 but that is an exception 22:23:43 och (and) 22:24:04 Well, laterals ('L') are easy to elongate. 22:24:13 since (also) is "också", not "ochså" 22:24:29 fizzie, um? We never make the consonants long 22:24:37 we make the vowels in front short 22:25:09 I guess this means it is LR(2) or so in that aspect 22:25:10 Wikipedia "Gemination" article says you do: "In some languages, e.g. -- Swedish -- consonant length and vowel length depend on each other. That is, a short vowel within a stressed syllable always precedes a long consonant or a consonant cluster, whereas a long vowel must be followed by a short consonant." 22:25:33 Finnish and Japanese are mentioned in the third paragraph. 22:25:39 fizzie, hrrm. Do they give any examples? 22:26:26 Basically it's pronounced by simply making the pause longer. 22:26:32 For stop-style consonants. 22:26:58 The others ('rr', 'nn' and such) are of course trivial. 22:27:33 what ones would be "stop style"? 22:28:00 p, t, k, at least. 22:28:38 damn don't have any Swedish /usr/share/dict/* here and can't think of any example 22:28:44 also kk never happens it is ck 22:29:33 And based on some Wikipedia reading, the nasal consonats are also called "stops", but those don't really count. 22:30:18 In any case, Finnish makes the consonant/vowel-length variation mean completely different words. Wikipedia gives the example taka "back", takka "fireplace", taakka "burden". 22:30:32 fizzie, you mean tt would cause a long pause after it? 22:30:39 attribut? No pause there 22:30:56 hm short a yes 22:30:58 -!- kt3k has quit ("CHOCOA"). 22:31:01 No, the pause before the actual sound burst of 't' is elongated. 22:31:02 and that is due to double t 22:31:28 fizzie, there is no pause on either side of any t (except after the word) 22:31:59 There is a pause *in* 't'. The vocal tract is closed there, then opened which produces the actual t-like sound. 22:32:11 Just record it and look at it in Audacity if you don't believe me. :p 22:32:31 I guess it's called "hold" and not "pause", but anyway. 22:32:37 fizzie, can't check right now due to ppl sleeping in the next room and thin walls 22:32:42 may do it tomorrow 22:34:11 -!- peek_you has joined. 22:35:58 In any case, the hold-time before the tongue (in case of "t") is released is made longer. 22:39:56 There's actually a Wikipedia English example -- in English gemination seems to occur mostly just across words -- for geminated 'k': "black coat", which is pronounced [blæˈkːoʊt]. So there's a single geminated 'k' sound, not two distinct 'k's. 22:55:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:55:50 fizzie, do you have any idea how to list open fds for a process? from inside gdb preferred 22:55:53 seems impossible 22:58:03 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:58:19 -!- Asztal^_^ has joined. 22:58:31 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:58:33 -!- Asztal^_^ has changed nick to Asztal. 23:00:23 -!- kwertii has joined. 23:02:55 AnMaster: heres how .name works - 23:03:00 when you buy a.b.name, b.name is then reserved. 23:03:06 so hird.name is reserved from someone.hird.name 23:04:04 ehird, can you register b.name directly? 23:04:08 if no one got a.b.name 23:04:11 yes 23:04:13 s/got/has/ 23:04:29 (then people can't register a.b.name, obviously) 23:05:49 but elliott.hird.name is appealing to me mostly for the elliott@hird.name tie-in 23:10:15 http://www.getfirepow.com/ are all these "MAKE MONEY SOFTWARE COOL" sites made with the same software...? 23:10:24 They all look identical 23:13:12 'night 23:13:15 -!- M0ny has quit ("Hum... Hum..."). 23:14:25 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 23:14:29 ehird, if I had my surname I could get whatever@thatname.name 23:14:37 AnMaster: yes, you could 23:14:43 but i can't get hird.name :-P 23:14:47 ah 23:14:48 as it's reserved 23:15:06 due to someone else buying .hird.name 23:15:06 hmm 23:15:08 come to think of it 23:15:11 it might have been me 23:15:15 as i used to own elliott.hird.name 23:15:45 hahaha 23:16:00 ehird, how expensive are .name? 23:16:15 same cost as most domains, though sometimes a little more expensive 23:16:35 well I don't know the normal cost 23:16:37 I don't own any domain 23:16:51 (how do you pay for them since you are too young to have a credit card hm?) 23:16:52 AnMaster: hmm, about 79 kronor a year, i think 23:16:55 though i might have got that wrong 23:17:12 ehird, well if you had pasted it in Euro or whatever I could have converted 23:17:19 AnMaster: i converted with google :-P 23:17:24 ah 23:17:27 also, in the uk there's this silly cardy thingy for people 13 and over 23:17:34 AnMaster: Usually just "ls -l /proc/pid/fd/" is enough on Linux. 23:17:48 it's called a "cash card". which, iirc, makes withdraws fail if you don't have enough money on it 23:17:49 ehird, there is? Strange, I got my card around when I got 18 23:17:54 AnMaster: it's not a proper credit card 23:17:54 (slightly before or after) 23:18:22 ehird, also I have mine fail if I lack money on my account, no credit when I don't have stuff 23:18:25 I'd hate that 23:18:32 fizzie, hm thanks 23:18:37 fizzie, and on openbsd? 23:18:43 which I happen to use atm 23:18:46 before that - actually i don't recall if my registrar supports those cardy things atm, been a while since i registered a domain - i used the "parental overlord registers + i pay back in cash" method 23:19:06 ehird, hehe 23:19:26 actually my card is only valid in the cash machines, not for shopping with 23:19:51 thinking about it, i believe i've only ever made one transaction with that card since i got it in august 23:20:11 (buying an album from http://warpmart.com/, I think) 23:20:39 I'm not sure, openbsd's /proc probably doesn't expose that info. It's somewhere in the kernel's data structures, obviously; it's been so long since my openbsd days that I don't really remember what sort of tools there were for digging it. 23:20:50 Also, "lsof" has a "for this pid" mode, and I think it does openbsd too. 23:20:56 * AnMaster still remember the looks he got when he paid for a 4 digit camera using 3 digit paper money. 23:21:06 * Sgeo checks out the Intellichat thingy 23:21:10 AnMaster: LOL :D 23:21:13 though that was before I turned 18 23:21:24 but I look old for my age 23:21:31 always have 23:21:37 i look way younger 23:21:45 i'm about as tall as a 8-9 year old 23:21:54 most guess 22. I'm 18 23:22:02 well 19 in December 23:22:16 ehird, in cm? 23:22:24 AnMaster: I don't recall. 23:22:24 People guess that I'm around 22. 23:22:26 I'm actually 22. 23:22:27 "short cm". 23:22:30 GregorR, haha 23:22:39 haha, the php \ namespace separator won over: **, ^^, %%, :>, :), and ::: . 23:22:49 ehird, what is wrong with :: ? 23:22:50 :> i like the smilies :) 23:22:58 AnMaster: it's used for ClassName::STATIC_VAR, I think 23:23:02 ah 23:23:07 what about . ? 23:23:16 string concatenation (inherited from perl) 23:23:19 ah right 23:23:25 -> ? 23:23:25 Still, C++ does :: for ClassName::STATIC_VAR and has no problems using additional "foo::"s for namespaces. 23:23:29 AnMaster: $obj->meth 23:23:31 fizzie, yeah 23:23:40 fizzie: except php is, as i said, run by a bunch of bumbling retards 23:23:48 ehird, um... _ ? 23:23:50 they probably can't make the parser do that 23:23:54 AnMaster: func_name() 23:23:58 ehird, - 23:24:06 AnMaster: 1 - 2 23:24:13 well ok 23:24:17 §! 23:24:22 but func-name too 23:24:26 what about that? 23:24:30 look that isn't a - 23:24:34 as in 1-2 23:24:38 but in a name 23:24:40 AnMaster: you can't have func-name and 1 - 2 without insane parsing shit 23:24:45 dylan did it, so does xslt 23:24:47 it doesn't work. 23:24:53 i'm about as tall as a 8-9 year old 23:24:53 ehird, in cm? 23:24:53 AnMaster: 1 - 2 23:24:57 ehird, err you can have - in function names in many languages 23:25:00 GregorR: lol 23:25:05 I'm pretty sure scheme got it, oh wait yeah right 23:25:06 AnMaster: not the same languages with infix mathematics. 23:25:08 - is a function too 23:25:49 hm 23:26:12 ehird, what about " ? 23:26:13 ;P 23:26:17 "string" 23:26:18 actually I got a good idea 23:26:19 # 23:26:23 # comment 23:26:34 I thought // was commend in php? 23:26:39 as is #. 23:26:42 and /* ... */. 23:26:44 oh 23:26:53 @ ? 23:27:01 hm wasn't there some language that used ' as a separator? 23:27:02 @function(errors,will,be,silently,ignored) 23:27:09 ehird, ok that is silly 23:27:15 ¤ 23:27:16 AnMaster: its because: 23:27:22 if (!fopen(...)) 23:27:25 will yell to the browser the error 23:27:28 and there's no exception structure 23:27:31 so you have to do 23:27:36 if (!@fopen(...)) 23:27:42 ehird, that is silly still 23:27:44 ¤ is not on most keyboards 23:27:49 AnMaster: yes. 23:27:49 ehird, ah true 23:27:50 ! 23:27:58 "not" 23:28:06 if (!foo) 23:28:07 ? 23:28:10 as in 23:28:13 ¤¤¤¤¤ 23:28:16 foo?bar 23:28:17 AnMaster: a ? b : c 23:28:23 ah it got the C one 23:28:27 *has. 23:28:45 haz* 23:29:02 hastur* 23:29:04 ehird, what oerjan said about ' above 23:29:07 oerjan++ 23:29:14 'string without interpolation' 23:29:22 interpolation? 23:29:30 "$var and \n" 23:29:43 I only knew what interpolation was for images... 23:29:51 same as in perl then 23:29:56 ehird, what about , ? 23:30:02 if not in () 23:30:07 a, b, c; works I think 23:30:11 ah right 23:30:11 also 23:30:13 if (a, b) 23:30:15 | 23:30:17 or & ? 23:30:28 bit | masks & fuck_yeah 23:30:40 >< 23:31:10 ehird, ? 23:31:12 * SimonRC wishes Javaa had a good syntax for saying "If this argument to the method is null, don't call the method but just result in null". 23:31:16 AnMaster: a > b && b < c 23:31:25 ehird, no I mean a> Being able to do that for the dispatch object would be a good start even 23:31:34 a double char separator 23:31:36 AnMaster: php's parser is shitty, ad-hoc and is not context sensitive. 23:31:40 it cannot do that, i believe. 23:31:41 also 23:31:45 namespace> is ... impossible to read 23:31:57 ehird, you could make >< one token with higher priority than > 23:32:03 in the lexer 23:32:03 * SimonRC reads up 23:32:07 I think 23:32:09 or 23:32:10 AnMaster: you think it has a proper lexer? 23:32:10 ? 23:32:14 it's a big mass of ad-hoc c 23:32:28 ehird, I'd assume lex/yacc but I guess I were wrong 23:32:34 no way. 23:32:49 ehird, what about +++ 23:32:52 AnMaster: $foo++ 23:32:56 I'm going now, anyway. Bye. 23:33:02 cya 23:33:06 ehird, ans 23:33:07 and* 23:33:09 +++ != ++ 23:33:11 so 23:33:15 yes 23:33:17 but it sees ++ 23:33:18 and that's it 23:33:25 ehird, but if it sees a + then? 23:33:36 does it think that can't be ++ ? 23:33:42 that makes no sense 23:34:03 ehird, ^ 23:34:33 oerjan: Perl supports both :: and ', but the latter one is rather rarely used. One of the perldoc pages says which language ' comes from, but I can't find it. There was some sort of sentece about "I'll use :: so C++ programmers can pretend they know what's going on -- I could've used ' so that programmers ..." 23:35:12 fizzie, but perl got an amazing parser, it has to or it couldn't handle that language 23:35:25 fizzie, also I'd use a single : 23:35:30 fizzie: I have a nagging feeling that ' is from ADA 23:35:33 why double I don't understand 23:35:40 Ah, perlmod. 23:35:47 io:format() or io::format() 23:35:50 which looks best? 23:35:52 I'd say the first one 23:35:55 And it was Ada, yes. 23:36:02 That was my recollection too, but couldn't be sure. 23:36:10 (then there is the great ML-family-vs-Miranda-family debate: : for cons and :: for type annotation, or ice-versa) 23:36:14 *vice 23:36:58 AnMaster: the first one is reminiscent of one of those small crazy languages, like Io or such 23:37:04 "[Using :: instead of '] also makes C++ programmers feel like they know what's going on--as opposed to using the single quote as separator, which was there to make Ada programmers feel like they knew what was going on." 23:37:08 SimonRC, oh? 23:37:10 crazy? 23:37:11 why is that 23:37:18 I took the : syntax from Erlang actually 23:37:20 for modules 23:37:27 Module:Function 23:37:43 probably got it from Prolog? 23:37:49 guess so 23:37:59 what lang is Io? I heard the name before 23:38:07 more and more recently in fact 23:38:11 there are two languages by that name 23:38:36 the small, crazy and nearly esoteric one that few remember 23:38:52 and some object-oriented fancy thing 23:38:56 oerjan, not on esolangs? 23:39:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_(programming_language) is the only one on wikipedia 23:39:13 oerjan, so which one did SimonRC mean? 23:39:21 and can you tell me about the small crazy one 23:39:26 * SimonRC tries to remember if Io is the one with omnipresent backtracking 23:39:33 like the list monad being everywhere 23:39:46 SimonRC: no that's Icon 23:40:19 well 23:40:28 tell me about the Io one that is small and crazy 23:40:33 maybe a link too? 23:40:50 AnMaster: there's a link from the new IO to the old one iirc 23:41:32 oerjan, not on their front page at least 23:42:03 hm cannot find it 23:42:14 http://iolanguage.com/issues/browse.cgi 23:42:15 haha 23:42:23 it is written in IO it seems 23:42:25 their page seems to have changed a lot 23:42:25 and crashes 23:43:04 Ah, no Io is the smalltalk with the source code attitude of LISP 23:43:24 i.e. source code is a directly-accesible tree of objects that is trivil to manipulate 23:43:31 * AnMaster tries way back machine 23:43:36 SimonRC: not the crazy one then 23:43:51 the _really_ crazy one, that is 23:43:57 oerjan, anything useful on http://web.archive.org/web/20060613184339/www.iolanguage.com/about/ ? 23:44:50 ah it's in the faq 23:45:32 both the links in there are to wayback 23:45:54 er wait i'm reading _in_ wayback 23:46:08 yes 23:46:14 can't find it on the new one 23:46:19 anyway that link works 23:47:18 Amalthea was from the esolang community iirc 23:47:31 oh? One of us? 23:47:33 ;) 23:47:44 or from the older mailing list 23:47:55 ah right 23:48:48 http://www.guldheden.com/~sandin/amalthea.html 23:48:54 still exists 23:49:28 yep 23:50:48 hm seems to be coded in ocaml 23:51:00 probably should try to learn that language one day 23:51:04 looks interesting 23:51:11 o?caml that is 23:51:29 I wonder if it suggests using CamlCase... 23:52:11 i don't quite remember 23:52:21 would be rather funny if it did 23:52:26 but I prefer underscore 23:54:10 two ;; for ending statements!? 23:54:37 in ocaml? yeah it's ugly 23:54:49 well ok, I don't want to learn it 23:55:07 ugly syntax, but nice idea/implementation 23:55:19 there's an improved syntax using its preprocessor iirc 23:56:48 F# the .NET language is based on ocaml and i vaguely recall (from discussions) that it has an improved syntax too 23:56:49 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 23:58:21 oerjan, F# is horrible, I checked it out a bit ago (just checked examples on wikipedia page) 23:58:54 ouch 23:59:39 AnMaster: horrible? how? 2008-10-26: 00:00:03 SimonRC, just look at it 00:00:07 * oerjan remembers there were fresh apples around 00:00:14 oerjan, oh? 00:00:47 haskell got a kind of messy syntax too, but F# is way worse 00:01:00 and yes I realise this may upset some people her 00:01:01 here* 00:01:05 I prefer Haskell's syntax so far 00:01:28 from my landlady's garden 00:01:38 or so i assume 00:01:43 Asztal, scheme syntax is way more elegant 00:02:04 isn't there some liskell or something? 00:02:10 elegant, yes, easy on the eyes, not really 00:02:21 yes there is liskell 00:03:14 * oerjan swats AnMaster for insulting haskell syntax ----### 00:03:18 Asztal, Prolog one 00:03:20 then 00:03:23 also much better 00:03:45 oerjan, and I still do it, I think the entire ML family of languages got a horrible syntax 00:04:36 haskell's syntax is quite different from ML. it belongs to that Miranda family mentioned above 00:05:13 oerjan, well Haskell is ugly too 00:05:28 I don't think so 00:05:49 nah, Haskell's got a reasonable syntax 00:06:04 too _much_ syntax sugar 00:06:07 in haskell 00:06:16 * SimonRC thinks up a C-like syntax for Haskell 00:06:27 * AnMaster prefers prolog like or scheme like 00:06:37 C is ok but prolog style or lisp are better 00:06:49 AnMaster: but it's all superficial; there isn't anthing horrible underneath 00:06:58 SimonRC, ? 00:06:59 I mean, Haskell 00:07:22 what about those ugly ` everywhere? 00:07:30 huh? 00:07:42 hamming = 1 : map (2*) hamming `merge` map (3*) hamming `merge` map (5*) hamming <-- example from wikipedia 00:07:42 depends on how you're using it 00:07:53 those are superficial too 00:07:53 seen them used in lots of Haskell code 00:07:54 that is unusual 00:08:10 using ` is just plain silly 00:08:17 why use a dead key for stuff 00:08:27 it takes much longer to type 00:08:30 and it is ugly 00:08:31 they are the syntax for making infix operators out of ordinary functions 00:08:35 AnMaster: huh? 00:08:39 it's not a dead key in US keyboard i think 00:08:41 since when was ` a dead key 00:08:53 SimonRC, on my keyboard ` is Shift-' Space 00:08:53 and what is a dead key? 00:08:54 well 00:09:05 they don't care about i18n then ;P 00:09:40 you could, like, not use infix functions with text names then 00:09:55 suggest a better notation? 00:09:55 SimonRC, I prefer scheme, there are no strange ones 00:10:02 C got AltGr-7 for { 00:10:10 so that is not very i18n friendly either 00:10:21 scheme seems to be very i18n friendly 00:10:27 you could write the above without te backquotes in LISP style instead 00:10:32 Just Shift-8 and Shift-9 00:10:41 SimonRC, ok 00:10:52 SimonRC, still to much syntax sugar 00:10:54 hamming = 1 : merge (merge (map (2*) hamming) (map (3*) hamming)) (map (5*) hamming) 00:10:59 better have one way to write everything 00:11:04 except for very common stuff 00:11:08 the infix merge really helps in that case 00:11:16 like (quote (x)) and '(x) 00:11:18 AnMaster: I dunno 00:11:19 that is a valid one 00:11:37 currying is very nice, even though you could use lambda 00:11:57 Lisp is the solution to every problem :P 00:12:03 AnMaster: haskell doesn't use lists as source code in the same way 00:12:07 I think it definitely makes things more readable in the case of things like `isPrefixOf` and maybe `fmap` 00:12:13 SimonRC, that is another downside 00:12:22 Asztal, harder to write 00:12:31 I like i18n friendly languages 00:12:32 only for you with your dead keys :) 00:12:43 but the price of lists as source code is lists as source code 00:12:53 scheme has ` too, remember 00:12:55 Asztal, and Finnish, and Norwegian (iirc) and Danish and so on 00:12:56 I just use AltGr for those 00:13:05 Asztal, and lots and lots of non US/UK users 00:13:21 if you have a function with two arguments, you need a way to seperate the arguments and a way to specify what the function is 00:13:26 an infix operator does both at once 00:13:29 yes, there's even a UK keyboard which has ` as a dead key 00:13:45 oerjan, ok scheme has ` in macros, but I don't use scheme macros a lot since they are messy 00:14:03 ` is not just for macros 00:14:06 AnMaster: you can avoid ` in Haskell too if you like 00:14:15 it's useful for building lists with lots of fixed parts 00:14:26 but in LISP-likes, you must seperate the operands with space, which is not as distinctive as an operator 00:14:30 oerjan, hm ok, never used it outside macros 00:14:31 optbot! 00:14:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | oh... darn, (a (5)) isn't considered a special form since what is evaluated and what is not is decided at the beginning of the eval-function.... 00:14:32 There is also not much use for quasiquote/unquote if you use syntax-rules macros or some-such; just in defmacro-like "raw code transformers" things. 00:14:58 SimonRC, look in C-like language I write foo(bar, quux) so that is , space 00:15:05 better just a space 00:15:18 a , only isn't as readable 00:15:51 fizzie, indeed 00:15:57 but I normally avoid all macros 00:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | You have to use hacks to make CSS do the right things in different browsers.. 00:16:35 hey 00:16:39 Personally I've made undead (zombified?) the two dead keys (acute+grave-accent and umlaut+tilde+hat) the Finnish (and I guess Swedish too) keymap has, since I type ^, ~ and ` a lot more often than accented characters. 00:17:25 fizzie, would seriously confuse the random other users of this computer :/ 00:17:41 It's just in my personal xkb configuration. 00:17:44 ah good idea 00:17:50 Although this computer doesn't have any other users either. 00:17:57 fizzie, care to paste it? 00:18:03 also what about {} ? 00:18:17 and how would you use the dead key ones when you need them 00:18:23 which I do occasionaly 00:18:31 occasionally* 00:19:00 I'm not quite sure; there are some xkb layout-switcher thingies that put a small icon in the system tray for that. 00:19:55 fizzie, would this be in .xmodmaprc ? 00:20:46 There's a xkb "variant" of at least the fi keymap called "nodeadkeys". Seems like I've put it into xorg.conf here, but the same effect should be achievable by just arranging for "setxkbmap fi nodeadkeys" to be executed somehow. 00:21:12 fizzie, I do sometimes use dead keys so 00:21:14 hm 00:21:42 Well, you could configure some keyboard shortcuts to fiddle with the mapping. That of course depends on the desktop environment in use. 00:21:55 I use awesome on this box, which is pretty rare, I guess. 00:23:39 fizzie, kde 00:24:01 Well, in KDE I'm pretty sure you can just use the configuramation places to configure a per-user keyboard layout setting. 00:24:14 hrrm 00:24:15 It would be pretty strange if it wasn't a per-user thing. 00:24:33 * SimonRC goes to bed 00:24:48 fizzie, It messes with my xmodmap 00:58:15 night 03:12:29 -!- ihope has joined. 03:12:35 Hi, #esoteric. 03:12:37 hi Warrigal 03:12:44 er, what? 03:13:56 i mean, Hi 03:14:20 * Sgeo can't believe oerjan doesn't know who Warrigal is 03:14:21 The skull on my desk is from the same family as the warrigal. 03:14:32 How would oerjan know who Warrigal is? 03:14:45 ...oh, right. 03:14:49 * oerjan found no proper names 03:15:14 oerjan, can't you at least figure it out? 03:15:43 i found definitions, but no proper names 03:15:43 I asked for a canine skull, and got a vulpine skull. Still canid, though. 03:16:45 Presumably, either Sgeo or Warrigal arrived soon before Sgeo said "hi Warrigal". 03:17:20 there is no Warrigal here 03:17:50 Well, his nick isn't Warrigal. 03:18:37 ihope: so you were foxed? 03:18:58 I guess so. 03:19:27 I wonder how easy it is to get the skull of a warrigal. 03:19:29 (We apologize for the delay in our pun service) 03:20:03 Warrigals are "vulnerable", according to the IUCN Red List, according to Wikipedia. 03:21:02 I guess they can be trapped and poisoned in some areas. 03:23:40 So probably not more than a couple hundred dollars. 03:24:56 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 03:37:26 Fox skulls on eBay are pretty cheap, it seems. I wonder if shipping can be $30 for a $20 item. 03:38:11 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:38:12 Why are you looking for fox skulls 03:40:01 Just wondering how much they cost, really. My fantasies include buying a dingo skull (none of those on eBay) and... I dunno. 03:42:50 Fantasies? 03:43:03 I hope you're not buying those for anything immoral. 03:47:05 Nope. 03:47:28 What immoral things could you do with a skull, apart from scaring people? 03:49:23 ihope : Are you willing to see NSFW pictures as an answer 03:49:42 No. 03:50:43 Then, you will never know :o 03:51:21 Unless grinding it into a powder, dissolving the powder in acid, and sprinkling the mixture on flowers is NSFW. 03:52:40 It is not. 03:57:18 My cat is now sniffing the skull intently and licking it a little. The lower jaw's going to fall out from under it if she keeps touching it like that. 03:57:37 I guess it still smells like either a fox head or glue. 03:58:44 how do you know if a cat is hallucinating anyhow? 03:58:54 -!- kwertii has quit ("bye"). 03:59:13 If it meows about giant mice 03:59:52 If it's responding to absent stimuli, it's hallucinating? 04:00:10 Why do you ask? 04:00:26 in case that was glue 04:00:59 It's more likely that it smells of glue than that she's hallucinating that it smells of glue. 04:01:06 Cats always respond to inexistant stimuli 04:01:54 i mean, maybe she's getting high on it 04:02:52 * ihope shrugs 04:03:15 Any glue on it is at least a few days old, perhaps many years old. 04:03:57 oh well. go make a lolcat picture or something. 04:04:04 * ihope offers her the foramen magnum, that being where the brain went 04:04:29 I think it mostly smells like me. 04:04:38 And my school. 06:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Not sure what ACPI is, though. heard the term, but I don't know what it is. I'm silly,. 06:22:17 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 06:42:38 -!- peek_you has quit. 06:43:44 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Success). 06:49:34 hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii :) 06:49:39 i'm off -> 07:12:44 -!- kt3k has joined. 07:17:27 hmm... F#'s syntax really is annoying 07:28:50 err is it a functional language? 07:30:01 F#isnt functional at all i think 07:45:21 wait no sorry i was thinking of another language 07:51:55 Amaj7 perhaps? 07:52:37 Asztal: yes :( 07:52:48 -!- mental has changed nick to lament. 07:53:51 :o 07:53:57 why don't i have a cool anagram 07:54:36 if i was oclopock, i could have "cockpool" 07:54:57 lockpool is easier, but that makes no sense 07:57:18 cocklopol. 07:58:07 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklokok. 07:59:03 oh, how boring, I have... aszalt, meaning dried/parched/desiccated :) 07:59:55 I have "Inject Icky Rim" 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:25 :D 08:02:10 hehe, my irl name has the anagram "i loves all" 08:02:33 the name "daniel stanley" has the best anagram: "needs it anally" 08:04:57 :o 08:05:05 i should change my name to daniel stanly 08:05:08 "i loves all" huh 08:05:45 your last name is an anagram of either sole or sola 08:07:29 psygnisfive: well i said that partle because i knew you'd start wondering about my name (assuming it's not in my whois, i haven't checked) 08:07:32 *partly 08:07:43 ;D 08:09:14 so whats your last name huh? 08:09:25 i should know, if im gonna be your slaveboy 08:10:19 my name is nothing special, but my phone number is FETUS-71 08:10:28 ( http://dialabc.com/words/search/ ) 08:14:35 My cell # has nothing like that 08:16:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:17:23 -!- pikhq has joined. 08:18:26 -!- moozilla has joined. 08:24:48 (haha i'm also "loli slave") 08:26:25 lol 08:27:59 the anagram engine didn't know the term "loli" for some reason 08:28:05 I wonder why 08:28:19 me too, i should ask them to add it 08:28:54 Heh 08:31:08 Hmm, googling "loli slave"... 08:31:28 xD 08:31:41 My original loli slave amputee story 08:32:34 :D 09:14:55 -!- oklocod has joined. 09:15:14 -!- oklokok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:46:36 Asztal, F#? Pronounced as F-blunt right? 09:46:59 -!- kar8nga has joined. 10:22:56 I made some befunge-commentation javascript: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.html 10:22:57 fizzie: i cannot assume good faith and leave it. peace. user:deeceevoicedeeceevoice 15:20, 23 nov 2004 ( utc) fnord 10:23:37 Haven't added much comments, but you can see the format in http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot-hl.txt -- all that is parsed with client-side javascript to make that thing. You should be able to click on the regions and see the comment text. 10:23:37 fizzie: negative liberty means freedom from interference. classical liberalism is the opposite of social conservatism. ' ' google" and ' ' must" be added to the article. 10:23:54 And it probably only works in FF3, because I suck at cross-browser-stuff and that's what I used to write it. 10:28:02 fizzie, heh? 10:28:35 hah 10:28:47 fizzie, I can view comments in ff2 10:29:32 fizzie, in konq 3.5.x the green and blue aren't transparent 10:29:40 so you can't see what it comments 10:29:45 Okay. 10:29:58 fizzie, also is it suppoed to not be scrollable? 10:30:20 scrollwheel doesn't work 10:30:20 odd 10:30:28 the scrollbar does work 10:30:41 Do you have one or two scrollbars in there? 10:30:47 fizzie, two 10:30:55 in both ff2 and konq 10:31:09 Yeah, actually in FF3 too; I broke the height calculation when I added some padding in the top panel. 10:31:15 in konq one goes away when I resize, in ff2 it doesn't 10:31:38 scroll wheel still doesn't work in either 10:32:36 In here the scroll wheel works if the mouse is in the scrollable region. The top comment-display-area is supposed to stay fixed, and only the code part should scroll. But I have apparently broken it. 10:33:47 fizzie, it also scrolls sideways in ff and konq 10:33:50 which is strange 10:33:56 Well, I removed the padding now. In FF3 it now works correctly. 10:34:00 considering the code "box" is less than 1/3rd 10:34:29 fizzie, works in ff2, still no scrollwheel working in konq 10:34:39 "humdidum"? 10:35:01 I was in the middle of trying to think of something to say there when I noticed the scrolling issues. 10:35:07 So I just wrote something and saved. 10:35:32 ah 10:35:35 Maybe konq does scrollwheel-scrolling only for the page, and not for separate elements of the page. 10:35:48 fizzie, possible, but I think it works in text boxes and such 10:36:36 fizzie, if focus is in a text box I can scroll it 10:36:42 so I need to click in the text box once 10:36:53 can't scroll your page even when I click in it 10:36:59 * AnMaster checked on http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=edit 10:37:15 Yes, well, it's just a
, not a form element which could really have the focus. 10:37:40 fizzie, anyway since the green areas are opaque in konq it isn't very usable there 10:37:51 since I can't see what they comment 10:38:16 Yeah. Those should get the transparency from a dynamically created CSS rule for the corresponding class, which has "opacity: 0.2;" in them. 10:38:26 Since the colors get set correctly, I think the CSS rule generation at least works. 10:38:38 Maybe it doesn't do CSS3 "opacity", although that sounds a bit strange. 10:38:40 fizzie, oh you claim to be xhtml 1.1? 10:38:42 http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fzem.fi%2F~fis%2Ffungot.html 10:38:42 AnMaster: according to fnord, the land neighbouring roman gaul. it is meant to work. apparently, they never got fnord 22:54, 29 december 2006 ( utc 10:38:58 Yes, I just copied the page from some earlier one. 10:39:04 Haven't had time to check for validity yet. 10:39:08 ah right 10:40:31 Should probably move the javascript part to a separate file anyway. 10:40:42 heh 10:40:47 same for css 10:41:34 fizzie, do you use PERL btw? If yes my local copy have some changes, it uses fcntl to set "close on exec" flag for SOCK fds 10:42:04 Nope. 10:45:15 * AnMaster pushes that change 10:45:48 Okay, down to two errors now. Funny that it doesn't let me use xsi:schemaLocation there -- the start tag looks very much like the example one in http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/conformance.html#strict 10:46:21 hm www.w3.org times out.... 10:46:42 Yeah, I get the same error from the validator if I copy-paste the "example of an HMTL 1.1 document" there to a page and try validating that. 10:47:05 fizzie, well I can't load the example. firefox says www.w3.org timed out 10:49:21 Strange; it does speak to me. 10:49:41 seems firefox is stupid and use same round robin dns entry every time 10:49:48 193.51.208.69 that is 10:50:15 Also strange that it doesn't allow the "id" attribute in the 'style' node; it is listed in the allowed attributes in the xhtml-modularization document. Oh-well. 10:50:31 maybe you forgot some module? 10:52:03 curl -H "Host: www.w3.org" http://128.30.52.38/TR/xhtml11/conformance.html | less works 10:52:11 more or less 10:52:15 not pretty 10:53:26 fizzie, is that comment app generic enough to be useful for other programs? 10:53:37 does it offer some web interface to edit comments? 10:53:57 No, of course not; that's a lot more work. 10:54:10 for both of the questions? 10:54:15 For the latter one. 10:54:18 ah 10:54:25 I don't see why it shouldn't work for other programs, though. 10:54:36 fizzie, very wide ones? 10:54:38 rather than tall 10:54:40 maybe? 10:54:56 Well, those would get the side-scrollbar, which might mess up the height calculation somewhat. 10:55:27 That's probably relatively simple to fix, though. It's just that my CSS-fu is weak. 10:55:33 well mycology isn't as wide as my monitor 10:55:39 1400x1050 rocks 10:55:57 1920x1200 here, but I have only about 60 % of it allocated to the browser. 10:56:02 bah 10:56:12 too large 10:56:18 (since I don't have it ;P) 10:56:37 Re the opacity in konq, I could trivially fix that by duplicating the underlying text -- then it wouldn't need transparency at all, actually. 10:57:39 may be messy in other browsers if you get offset wrong 10:57:39 Maybe I'll think about doing it that way. 10:57:55 + selecting text is harder then 10:58:12 also I have an old konq 10:58:12 It could already be a bit messy if the borders go wrong, and at least ff3 makes text-selecting feel difficult even currently. 10:58:15 3.5.x 10:58:18 not 4.x at all 10:58:35 fizzie, selecting text works very well in ff2 10:58:47 even within the middle of a green block 10:59:02 Even a selection that spans a block boundary? 10:59:26 In FF3 it keeps selecting the spaces that are in the block if I try to select there. 10:59:27 fizzie, if you start inside a block yes 10:59:42 if you start outside it wraps around the other way 10:59:44 what is this " http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.html Things 10:59:45 ? 10:59:46 SimonRC: this guy seriously looks like an old fnord o'brien. maybe this is because every friday and saturday night mainstream media portrays sex workers as the easy target for violence on dull cop shows." totally unnecessary. fnord ( user talk:ironangelalicetalk) 01:59, 4 august 2007 ( utc) 10:59:49 ie selecting top and bottom 10:59:58 which is quite strange 11:00:10 Well, that's what I get if I start in the middle of the box and try to make the selection go out of it. 11:00:18 fungot: huh? 11:00:19 SimonRC: if it's accurate, i am unsure about the " only to find nothing of the validity of the definition which is appropriate in this page refer to the character if this were better it would belong at national anthem --user:wetmanwetman 05:31, 15 july 2007 ( utc) 11:00:20 fizzie, works fine for level 1 boxes 11:00:23 but not level 2 11:01:05 SimonRC, it is a befunge comment viewer 11:01:11 fizzie, btw for me ; ; work fine 11:01:18 It's not that strange if you consider the implementation: it's currently done by sticking another "white-space: pre;" div positioned on top of the code text, filled with spaces but with the commented area spaces in suitable tags. 11:01:21 since my funge coding style is very linear 11:01:34 so I end up using 11x> at the end of each line 11:01:54 followed by comments past column 75 or so 11:02:02 going to column 100 11:02:43 fizzie, ah yes copying the selected text doesn't actually work 11:03:24 I was thinking about doing it by generating separate (empty) div-rectangles that were just positioned on top of the commented areas, but couldn't figure out a very clean way to specify a constant width for characters (without making those separate boxes too). 11:04:17 fizzie, I require that using the function to increase text size should work ;P 11:04:57 I guess I could've used tags in the source text, and then some javascript to position the comment-marker-divs using those spans as markers. 11:05:09 heh 11:06:52 At least with FF3 the text-size-changing mostly works, although occasionally I get some white or darker-green horizontal lines inside blocks, from overlapping or gaps between the per-line s. 11:06:58 hm what would that be in HQL? ON EVENT CLICKING ON ELEMENT span DO INVOKE JAVASCRIPT FUNCTION "CommentClicked" WITH ATTRIBUTE id OF THIS ELEMENT AS PARAMETER 11:06:59 maybe 11:08:06 fizzie, why is there are but of white space between every row even in the green commented blocks 11:08:10 that is each line is green 11:08:18 but there is some white space between each line 11:08:21 intentional I guess 11:08:25 Oh, there is? There's not in FF3. 11:08:37 well yeah there is 11:08:44 not in konq however 11:10:17 It's a bit tricky positioning. I use "line-height: 14px; font-size: 12px;" and then there's one pixel of bottom-padding in the comment colors. It seems to work correcly in ff3 (if I add more padding I get darker-green lines, indicating overlap) but not everywhere, I guess. 11:10:39 well this is a case of underlap rather 11:10:44 if that word exists 11:12:08 Yes, I get "underlapping" too if try without the padding. 11:12:24 want screenshot? 11:12:58 I think I can guess what it looks like. It probably gets fixed if I add one-pixel top-padding too to rows with no top border, but that causes overlapping in ff3. 11:13:15 Maybe the "span markers on the code layer and javascript-positioned empty divs on top" would be more robust, as then I could use the exact position of the next-line box for height. 11:36:20 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 12:01:56 fizzie, http://omploader.org/vdmJ5 12:02:56 fizzie, no idea why there is unclickable green inside the blue frame 12:03:09 where it says gg1e... 12:11:27 fizzie, ? 12:11:54 fizzie, it seems green areas are no longer clickable at all 12:12:04 if there is a subarea too 12:13:18 the two lowest green areas are clickable 12:13:22 no other green area is 12:13:27 this includes the reload one 12:14:04 blue yellow and red areas are all clickable 12:15:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 12:16:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | so... in the case where the two factors are as big as possible. 12:37:19 Hmm. 12:37:42 There should be green inside the blue, that's by design; but right, the clicking thing might be a problem. 12:38:28 I think it's the spaces on the second layer (those blue/yellow/red ones) are occluding the green things. 12:39:41 I'll probably redo that with the "absolutely positioned divs with javascript" thing at some point, that way the clickability should be simply based on the ordering of the div boxes. 12:39:57 The "green inside blue" is by design. 12:40:24 fizzie, what about the green not being clickable elsewhere either? 12:40:52 the reload green can't be clicked for example 12:41:00 in either firefox or konq 12:41:10 That's strange; that one shouldn't have problems. 12:41:17 Hmm. 12:41:31 Or maybe it's the second layer box that's occluding it, not the actual spaces. 12:41:50 fizzie, nor the main one for loading fingerprints 12:41:59 Yeah, you can click the right side of the reload box, at least in FF3. 12:42:18 ah yes you can 12:42:26 but the one for loading fingerprints you can't click at all 12:42:28 The width of the second layer comes from that red box, so you can click anything that's more to the right. 12:42:51 fizzie, that's odd. How comes you could click it when it was blue or yellow? 12:43:05 Red, blue, yellow are all on the second layer. 12:43:28 fizzie, well before the red existed you could click green anywhere, even when there was blue 12:43:59 anyway that kind of breaks a lot if it breaks in ff3 too so you'd want to fix it 12:44:16 Yeah, I'll try with the div-box approach, just not right now. 12:46:07 $ bzr ci -m 'Add comments to TOYS for what the function actually does, not just based on official function names.' <-- TOYS have so strange function names 12:46:30 yeah I know they are intercal ones and so on 12:47:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:47:10 dayum, all the clocks have gone back 12:47:11 or something 12:47:22 you know what's annoying 12:47:31 what's annoying is having clocks that automatically change 12:47:33 and clocks that don't. 12:47:35 that is confusing 12:48:29 ehird, agreed 12:48:41 most clocks auto change here 12:49:13 what is even more annoying is radio-synced clocks that didn't update because of weak signal in the bedroom 12:49:17 that is really annoying 12:49:28 you have to move them somewhere else to get them to update 12:49:47 well, right now I know that british time right now = GMT, which is more or less = UTC 12:49:51 (apart from some leap second crap) 12:50:08 ehird, Sweden went from CEST to CET during this night 12:50:43 in britain, (BST = GMT+1) -> GMT 12:50:46 where GMT ~= UTC 12:50:54 yes I know 12:51:20 ehird, do uou have the issue with radio-updated clocks that didn't sync too? 12:51:22 you* 12:51:25 did* 12:51:29 not sure, i wouldn't really know :-P 12:51:39 oh? 12:51:42 but most of the clocks haven't gone back. 12:52:01 i know that the clock on this computer is right due to ntp. 12:52:19 my alarm clock can't get signal in my bedroom, have to put it in the window of another room 12:52:30 computer clocks of course use ntp here 12:52:58 i wish os x does what windows did/does; when the clock changes due to daylight savings it gave you an alert box telling you so 12:53:10 which is nicer than just changing it without telling you. 12:53:19 ehird, huh? Why? It was mentioned in the news paper yesterday iirc 12:53:39 to remind ppl about it 12:53:41 that's relevant if you regularly read a newspaper :-P 12:53:58 ehird, yes I do spend on average 20 minutes every day reading the newspaper 12:54:01 or so 12:54:22 ehird, don't you? 12:54:32 AnMaster: Yes, well, I'm in England, we don't exactly have a large selection of decent newspapers to choose from. 12:54:37 hm ok 12:55:19 we have local paper and one country-wide one. The country wide one usually have better quality, but the local one is useful for local news (duh). 12:55:52 ehird, isn't there one called "Guardian" or so in UK? Heard someone said it was good 12:56:01 why would anyone read the news, it's a bunch of quidditch. 12:56:28 AnMaster: There are a few decent newspapers. However, they all have sites with their articles on and I'm a cheap technophile. :-P 12:56:52 ehird, anyway I see no need for computer to tell me time have changed 12:57:14 well I was disoriented when I saw it saying 11:57 when I had just looked at a clock saying 12:57 12:57:15 :-P 12:57:29 (It was actually just 11:00 or so, that's the time now.) 12:58:13 ehird it always tell me what timezone anyway: 12:58:14 $ date 12:58:14 sön okt 26 12:57:14 CET 2008 12:58:37 "Sun 11:58" is all I get in the corner, I could change it but that's all I generally ever need to know. 12:58:43 -!- M0ny has joined. 12:58:49 ehird, oh you don't check it from terminal? 12:58:49 Hm. 12:58:53 ;P 12:58:55 Wonder if I can get it to say YYYY-MM-DD. 12:59:08 AnMaster: It's easier to shoot my eyes to the corner of the screen than switch to a terminal and type "date\n". 12:59:12 :p 12:59:26 LOL you can get it to speak out the time on the hour 12:59:27 with text to speech 12:59:31 how uselessly amusing 13:00:16 splop 13:00:38 ehird: But not by much. :p 13:00:40 Haha, you can get it to blink the : in MM:SS. 13:00:43 How useless. 13:00:51 YYYYYY AD 13:00:54 pikhq: I check the time often enough for it to be significant. 13:00:54 that would be nice 13:01:04 AnMaster: Not even the Long Now people go that far. :-P 13:01:07 (They use 5 digits.) 13:01:13 ehird, "Long now"? 13:01:16 * AnMaster google 13:01:19 googles* 13:01:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Now_Foundation 13:02:15 Well then... "Ultra-long life, now 10 times longer" 13:02:34 AnMaster: That would be a very boring life. :p 13:02:51 ehird, nah life is too short already, too much to do 13:03:10 I've got a HH:MM in my screen stats-line nowadays. 13:03:20 I wouldn't want to live for 800 or so years. 13:05:02 http://zem.fi/~fis/screen.png 13:06:36 (And the timestamps are off a bit right now, I do not need to be notified about that.) 13:09:27 Gratuitous Large Screenshot with Gratuitous Blurring of IM Contacts: http://xs432.xs.to/xs432/08430/picture-1770.png (Note that the colours are probably a bit off due to stupid gamma correction crap in png and psd and blaaaaaaaah) 13:09:45 (But it's probably not noticable.) 13:12:43 (And yes, that is Firefox, just with a nicer theme than the OS X default.) 13:13:14 I could take a full-screen screenshot of this too, but since the window manager is awesome -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awesome_(window_manager) -- it would be probably approximately as interesting as that screenshot that's already in Wikipedia. 13:15:16 fizzie: No love for xmonad? :_p 13:15:18 *:-p 13:16:37 I pretty much picked a random tiling wm. 13:17:01 xmonad is written in haskell and has an X monad. 13:17:08 and a fibonacci-spiral tiling mode 13:17:23 Well, awesome has a fibonacci-spiral tiling mode stolen from xmonad, I think. :p 13:18:16 Huh: [[# The .name Registry may stop forwarding of messages that are larger than 20 MB in size.]] 13:18:21 (This is some unreliable document from 2004, though.) 13:18:30 And it's not like I send attachments anyway. 13:26:13 fizzie, now the fungot page is even worse in konq 13:26:14 AnMaster: i would like to suggest reverting article back and discuss future changes. by the portuguese in british india. 13:26:31 fizzie, same in ff2 13:26:40 AnMaster: Ah, two obsolete browsers. 13:26:49 y offset yes, but x is still at 0 for every of them 13:27:00 AnMaster: Yes, it's under construction now. 13:27:06 ehird, see? Not related 13:27:17 I'll let you know if I want someone to test it. 13:27:20 AnMaster: Doesn't mean they aren't obsolete. 13:27:23 fizzie, oh and there is a tiny green overlap now in ff2 13:27:31 AnMaster: I'll let you know if I want someone to test it. 13:27:33 fizzie, right 13:27:51 ehird, yes? It got here toe same second as I send my line 13:27:53 what about it? 13:28:07 I was already pressing enter by then 13:28:10 It got here a second before. :p 13:28:32 ehird, well here it didn't, and you can't assume such things about other ppl's connection 13:28:38 Yes I can. :D 13:28:55 it makes no sense however 13:29:01 and is a false assumption 13:29:19 Assuming that your message would come first is also an assumption that may be incorrect. 13:29:48 ehird, ? 13:30:16 I never assumed anything about anyone's connection except that lag is less than 30 seconds 13:30:55 ehird, so what did you mean with your last comment ( Assuming that your message would come first is also an assumption that may be incorrect.) ? 13:31:24 If I were to say that IRC was unordered, thus having no ordering assumptions, I could not follow any conversations. 13:32:14 ehird, you can know that two messages are in relative order to each other the way your server saw it. You can at most get an offset of one message in any given convo I think. 13:33:01 you can't see a response by A on a message from B that you haven't yet seen 13:33:39 this is due to the spanning tree protocol. Should a mesh network be used instead it would not however be valid 13:33:51 be a valid assumption* 13:34:15 also two messages from the same sender always arrive in relative order 13:43:57 -!- kt3k has quit ("CHOCOA"). 13:56:24 -!- Linus` has joined. 13:57:02 -!- Linus` has quit (Client Quit). 14:21:29 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:28:20 So how do you people generate passwords. 14:28:33 python 14:28:39 surprise! 14:29:14 Yeah, but I don't have your brain, I can't remember dsfjkshdfiury7834687ryfhf. 14:29:15 :-P 14:29:20 And my current password is le suck. 14:29:48 well i generate only like 8-10 char passwords usually 14:43:01 Okay, http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.html is now built with divs positioned with messy messy javascript, and therefore should be clickable in all the right places. There's still (in ff3) some empty spaces between lines that need fixing, and it's quite useless if the browser doesn't support css3 "opacity". 14:43:01 fizzie: the content of the societies in question ( fnord kind of race riot seattle produced was different, and that it can be added to the actual memo, is a synonym of ' country' in the fnord 14:45:22 Should indicate the clicked block somehow, also. 14:45:46 fizzie: how do YOU generate your passwords 14:45:46 :P 14:45:52 umm, what's that, fizzie 14:45:52 ? 14:45:57 oklocod: commented fungot 14:45:58 ehird: please note that it's not intentional, i have also posted a picture on this link: fnord 14:46:00 click on the blockies 14:46:17 fizzie: make the clicked block darker background 14:46:31 also make them a wee darker on hover over, so it's more obvious how to use it? 14:47:17 ehird: i know it's commented fungot, but what i was wondering was if that was the output of a program made for commenting befunge 14:47:18 oklocod: the polygamists tract is word-for-word from a tract tony alamo wrote. the fnord is a useful reframe option from the behaviour to the intent for the behaviour). likewise you can have " homo sapiens" redirect to " human" and mg and i can see that there is a very widely used in britain. fnord wang yu: version 2 05:12, 30 may 2006 ( utc 14:47:23 oklocod: yes 14:47:27 it is? 14:47:38 okay, then i've missed something i wouldn't have wanted to miss 14:47:43 should start reading the logs. 14:47:50 Well, sort-of, if you call the javascript thing a program. There's no real editor to make those comments, though. 14:48:09 oklocod: It just uses a manually written file -- http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot-hl.txt -- to outputize it. 14:48:09 fizzie: what do y'all think? -user:silencesilence 21:31, 28 january 2008 ( utc)/small!-- template:unsignedip !--autosigned by sinebot-- 14:48:23 fizzie: ah i see 14:48:29 well okay that's much less interesting 14:48:38 oklocod: why? 14:48:40 it's still befunge commented 14:48:44 just you write it in a weird format 14:49:05 i can't imagine you'd want an actual interface oklocod : 14:49:05 :p 14:49:07 I'll try to make the hoverization at some point. It's just that the nonrectangular blobs are built out of many divs, so I can't just stick .hl:hover { opacity: 0.4; } in there, otherwise it only darkens one part of it. 14:49:22 fizzie: Your system kind of sucks. :D 14:49:27 But 14:49:33 give each comment block an id in the class 14:49:36 like comment-34 14:49:41 then .comment-34:hover .hl 14:50:21 ehird: i was very interested in seeing a befunge ide 14:50:28 i'm gonna write one 14:50:30 sometime. 14:50:32 go for it 14:50:40 i'm gonna write everything sometime. 14:51:04 my goal is to make the perfect programming language, then program everything with it 14:51:08 I'm not sure that will work; most of the things I've tried have still applied the :hover style only to the single specific div that the mouse is actually hovering above. 14:51:25 All the comment blocks have unique CSS classes, though, so I can do it with a bit of javascript which changes the class opacity. 14:52:29 Anyway, there's those ugly inter-line gaps to worry about too. 14:53:34 fizzie: border-bottom: 3px solid greeeeeeeen 14:53:35 or something 14:53:43 also 14:53:44 it will work 14:53:52 i use .foo:hover .bar often 14:53:57 -!- Corun has joined. 14:55:33 But that's just "bar"-classed elements that are children of a "foo"-classed div that is being hovered on, isn't it? 14:56:07 s/div/element/ there. 14:56:58 fizzie yes. 14:57:00 ah, i see 14:57:02 ok, then: 14:57:11 hmm 14:57:20 fizzie: then just .uniqclassthing:hover will work 14:57:33 i was thinking
+
structure 14:57:34 silly i 14:58:13 I think I tried that, but it still only changed the opacity of the single div of that class that I was hovering on. (Which is what I think it should be doing, too.) 14:58:22 ohh, right 14:58:33 fizzie: you can't express that, no 14:58:46 I could put those separate divs inside a shared parent, but I can't put the parent anywhere visible (so that it would notice the cursor hovering) because it'd be a rectangular blob and block anything below it. 14:59:09 now how do you generate passphrases? 14:59:20 fizzie: um 14:59:23 div { opacity: 0 } 14:59:27 div .hl { opacity: 1; } 14:59:30 ...should work 14:59:32 if not: 14:59:38 div { background: rgba(0,0,0,0); } 14:59:42 will do it 14:59:47 (s/div/therightclass/ ofc) 15:00:29 I don't think it will: if it's "visible enough" so that it notices the cursor hovering above it, it feels like it'd also be visible enough to block elements under it from receiving clicks. Although I haven't tried all possible combinations. 15:00:36 Maybe I'll just javascriptize a bit, it might be simpler. 15:00:46 fizzie: z-index? 15:00:51 Oh, and passwords; I just use pwgen and then agonize about someone backdooring it. 15:01:26 hm 15:01:39 what sort of passwords does it generate? 15:02:02 There's some flags. I usually use the "use really random and symbols too" options. 15:02:26 fizzie: and how do you memorize them? I'm beginning to think I just have a shite brain :p 15:03:16 I tend to remember them pretty easily if they are passwords I actually need to use. The others (like random websites and such) I keep on an encrypted volume in a simple text file. 15:04:34 So how do you people generate passwords. <-- bash script that filters non printable chars from /dev/urandom 15:04:55 AnMaster: Yes, well, that's very nice, and I do that, but then I have to store it somewhere or I forget it in 5 minutes. 15:05:18 ehird, well yeah I keychain program is useful for random sites 15:05:28 AnMaster: Yes, but then you have to pick a master password. 15:05:44 ehird, yes and that I don't plan to tell anything about to anyone 15:06:08 AnMaster: Then I'm not sure why you responded to my question as my question was how do you generate memorable passcodes 15:06:43 ehird, well the question didn't include the word "memorable" 15:06:47 that was the reason 15:07:08 Obviously I could have guessed "store them all in a keychain randomly generated". 15:07:17 That's not rocket science. Generating a human-consumable password is. 15:07:44 I could probably remember a password with symbols in it, but randomly mixed case would likely trip me up. 15:07:49 login, keychain and gpg key have non-totally-random ones (and so does a few other). Long ones. 15:08:08 I'm considering DiceWare. 15:08:14 oh? what is that 15:08:25 http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.html 15:08:30 I've seen some reccomendations for it. 15:10:08 essentially i'm planning on consolodating everything into what is essentially a keychain 15:10:40 oh? 15:11:39 The model: i have an ssh & gpg key with the same passcode (only different seperate you can't use one for the other...) - which is memorable but complex, and if someone gets a hold of my machine and that passcode i'm basically fucked (neither of which are likely, unless i pick a really stupid password and go dancing around with this machine in public.). Then I have a file on rutian encrypted with my gpg private key. 15:11:57 And that file includes long, randomly-generated, unmemorable passwords. 15:12:01 Which I use for sites. 15:12:09 In fact, I don't even need it on rutian. 15:12:12 I'll just do that. 15:12:18 And then some Firefox+FireGPG+Greasemonkey automation 15:12:29 so that I can just hit 'login' and enter my gpg passcode if i haven't already that firefox session 15:12:32 heh 15:12:49 So, a single point of failure (computer+passcode), but an incredibly unlikely one. 15:12:51 ehird, aren't there good existing alternatives? 15:12:53 And also convenient. 15:12:56 AnMaster: like 15:12:57 ? 15:13:05 kwallet 15:13:11 for KDE 15:13:17 I'm sure there are ones for OS X too 15:13:23 AnMaster: OS X has a built-in keychain. 15:13:32 ehird, and how secure is it? 15:13:35 AnMaster: Very. 15:13:42 But you're missing the point absolutely. 15:13:42 then why not use that? 15:13:49 oh ok, what is the point? 15:13:50 The point is that it's tied to my gpg key. 15:13:59 ah 15:14:04 and why exactly do you want that? 15:14:16 my gpg key & my ssh key and the applications thereof - I trust their security to the highest degree, and I can easily manage them both. 15:14:26 It is only natural to build it on top of that. 15:14:37 It's also more portable than the Keychain, ofc. 15:14:47 you care about that? 15:14:47 Although I'd never actually put it on another machine, naturally. 15:15:00 AnMaster: Why wouldn't i? 15:15:33 no comments 15:15:42 AnMaster: What? 15:15:55 no comments I said. 15:15:58 also afk for a bit 15:16:02 AnMaster: Then why did you say it in the first place? 15:16:11 Oh, let me guess - it was a jab at my OS X usage? 15:16:15 How fresh. 15:17:05 Okay, the fungot.html page has opacity-setting on hoverization and clickation. 15:17:06 fizzie: map you are mentioning is official ( if we are going to contribute to an encyclopedia entry. right now it just reads like an essay rather than an encyclopedia article about science. fnord used science to justify their work to themselves from an ethical perspective by instigating a course at kings ( london) entitled ' the social impact of the fnord 15:17:25 Hmm./ 15:17:32 I'd go to the lectures if our university had a course called "the social impact of the fnord". 15:17:33 fizzie: The rollover change is alsmost unnoticable on green blocks 15:17:50 Yes, I may rethink the colors themselves at some point. 15:18:07 Very nice, though. 15:18:13 Currently it's opacity 0.15 by default, 0.25 when hovering and 0.5 when selected. 15:18:17 fizzie: I'd suggest not having to click, though, actually. 15:18:38 I'd also make the comment appear from the side, and pop out a line to it from the block, but that's just me. 15:18:52 Like a pseudo-speechbubble, kinda. 15:19:25 Mm. Well, I may change it so that it puts the comment up there already without clicking, unless some other block is selected. 15:19:40 That seems reasonable. 15:22:03 I should comment the rest of fungot too, but it's such a mess. Those green-block-style "this region of code does approximately what" parts are easy, though. 15:22:04 fizzie: an anon made some pov edits to the article, and the ones that went up for trial. also there are gsp+, etc...) for our stuff, also try: 15:22:35 fizzie: I'd also remove the pointer cursor, it kind of flickers a bit sometimes so you could just trash it. 15:24:23 Yes, with the hover-coloring it's maybe not necessary. 15:26:02 I think I'll try diceware. 15:26:24 You know what? Passwords are stupid. When can I get a brain implant? 15:38:39 ;\ 15:47:06 Hm. 15:47:15 I wonder what's wrong with using /dev/random with diceware . 15:52:12 fizzie, "firefox a script is being run for too long..." 15:52:46 fizzie, also the clickable areas are too faint 15:52:54 they are almost white on this monitor 15:54:04 AnMaster: your browser is broken, then 15:54:12 presumably it messes up opacity 15:54:25 ehird, no this is not a state-of-the-art monitor 15:54:33 So? 15:54:37 It's quite solid. 15:54:42 Nowhere near white. 15:55:07 ehird, on another monitor yes, I just checked, but not on this consumer TFT from 2003 15:55:16 * ehird shrugs 15:55:52 did that shrug mean you don't care about people that can't afford the most modern and high-end stuff? 15:56:01 Don't be ridiculous. 15:56:07 what did it mean then :P 15:56:10 You're talking about a f*cking HTML page commenting brainfuck code. 15:56:13 s/brainfuck/befunge/ 15:56:15 [thinko] 15:56:23 ehird, yes I am, and? 15:56:39 even if you can't see the background, the borders are easy to see. 15:56:50 ehird, no 15:56:58 not for me 15:57:06 tried in ff3 too, same issue 15:57:11 adjust contrast or something then 15:57:26 ehird, doesn't help in either direction 15:57:37 it is at 90% already 15:57:39 Are you sure you're not looking at a piece of paper? 15:57:54 doesn't help much* 15:57:58 and yes I am 16:00:04 I'll add configurable opacity-sliders and color-select-o-trons later. :p 16:00:16 fizzie: Bloat! 16:00:33 fizzie, great 16:04:38 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YxdlYFCp5Ic wow 16:04:40 yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes wow. 16:04:48 Have to prepare some food now. 16:13:30 Suddenly, I wonder how many "mean geometric figure, stupid geometric figure" webcomics there are. 16:13:54 I know of three, if you consider a stick figure a geometric figure. (You don't.) 16:14:09 hm 16:16:46 Yet another fungot babble-generation source experiment: 1200 transcriptions of Penny Arcade comics. (I'm not any huge fan, but since they were in a wiki...) The data-set is very very small, let's see how it works. 16:16:46 fizzie: they just fnord the rest of my life. 16:17:10 fungot: Who's this "they"? 16:17:19 Hmmm. 16:17:30 Oh, might be ignoring me. 16:17:34 fungot: hi 16:17:34 ehird: fnord fnord, fnord internet fraud division. i understand that we said you would have dsl last week, i fnord kara to hold me until i fell asleep. 16:17:44 fungot: You're not being very unique. 16:17:44 ehird: on a scale of one to ten. you fnord' birds or people? we should probably fnord fnord. 16:18:15 So little material most unknown words are fnords. I could actually remove that vocabulary filtering for this. 16:18:49 Well, maybe it's a bit boring since it just quotes stuff, there's not enough material to interestingly combine things. 16:19:28 fizzie: Feed it the #esoteric logs, grepped for only fungot lines. 16:19:28 ehird: dots: the dots can be thought of as fnord owned fnord. 16:28:07 ehird, hehe 16:28:18 that would probably be a too small dataset I guess 16:28:50 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 16:39:55 "The O_CLOEXEC flag is not specified in POSIX.1-2001, but is specified in POSIX.1-2001." 16:39:56 heh? 16:40:07 from man 2 open 16:40:25 heh 16:40:34 as far as I can tell they meant "2008 draft" for the latter 16:41:56 * ehird writes a diceware program 16:43:33 netcat6 got a bluetooth useflag now!? wtf 16:43:42 [[I have an electronic dice throw generator. Should I use it? 16:43:42 No! Unless you know how the electronics generate the randomness and can evaluate its strength, stick to old-fashioned real dice.]] 16:43:44 >:( 16:43:45 well I don't have any bluetooth stuff on this computer *turns it off* 16:43:56 ehird, I agree with that text 16:44:05 AnMaster: /dev/random should be secure enough L:P 16:44:08 but the dice shouldn't be weighted 16:44:09 although apparently on os x it uses yarrow 16:44:24 don't remember how secure that one is 16:44:27 well 16:44:29 yarrow is pretty darn secure 16:44:36 bruce schneier co-made it :P 16:44:42 it is pseudorandom, however 16:44:49 but it claims to be cryptographically secure 16:44:53 and, well, bruce schneier is probably right. 16:45:36 I'm too paranoid to trust even him 16:45:50 AnMaster: how do you trust the dice makers 16:45:56 ehird, I don't 16:46:02 I don't trust anyone 16:46:10 how do you know your fingers don't have a computer chip in them 16:46:16 logging every movement they make to the governmet 16:46:51 AnMaster: do you know that? 16:47:13 ehird, I don't. I said I trust *no one* 16:47:31 AnMaster: then you should stop doing everything because you can't even begin to guess at any possible consequences 16:47:42 go sit somewhere 16:47:57 ehird, yes which is why you have to do a risk analysis 16:48:05 "likely" "not likely" 16:48:06 and so on 16:48:15 there is no way I can know for certain 16:48:24 though it may or may not be more or less likely 16:48:44 AnMaster: I'd say for a risk analysis: Yarrow, designed by renowned cryptographer Bruce Schneier, and used by several things including every OS X system to generate the cryptographically secure /dev/random source... 16:48:51 how can we even know that we aren't alone? Imagining whatever we see, hear and feel? 16:48:52 I'd say that's pretty safe to trust. 16:49:04 isn't there some philosophical name for that 16:49:12 AnMaster: Yes, but it's bullshit. 16:49:24 true. But is there actually any way to *prove* 16:49:25 ? 16:49:32 You can't "prove" anything. 16:49:34 That has nothing to do with trust. 16:50:39 yeah there's no way to prove anything 16:50:48 and, most likely, nothing is true 16:51:39 * ehird gets ready to make a diceware password 16:51:49 Suppose nothing is true. In this case, it is not true that nothing is true. This is a contradiction. Therefore, something is true. 16:52:22 ihope: and you think you can get me to believe there isn't an error in that proof? 16:52:26 I think I will use the same method for remembering this password as I did my last one. 16:52:35 Have a text to speech program read it out to me repeatedly for ages. 16:52:45 Doing that, I memorized my current password within minutes. 16:52:53 ehird: how about making a memory peg and never forgetting it? 16:52:56 well 16:53:03 yeah guess that works just as well 16:53:04 However: I _am_ going to store this in a 000-permissioned file, and also keep a piece of paper with it. 16:53:11 oklocod: yep. 16:53:16 Yes, someone can break into my house and get access to it, but, you know. 16:53:22 It's something I really don't want to lose. 16:53:22 ihope: yep to what? 16:53:28 AnMaster: Do you have any backups of your passwords anywhere? 16:53:35 oklocod: yes, I think I can get you to believe there isn't an error in that proof. 16:53:41 Think of the most important ones; how valuable are they? Could you risk losing them? 16:53:43 ihope: impossible 16:53:59 for one thing, i already know it's false, so you'll need some work to convince me 16:54:00 it might be worth keeping a physical-paper printout of them somewhere secret. 16:54:06 you know, because everything is false 16:54:07 ehird, you mean the master ones? Yes I got a safe 16:54:22 revoke stuff for gpg keys and such 16:54:28 I don't have a safe, but I don't expect my house to be broken in to any time until I can get one :P 16:54:34 oklocod: if everything is false, you're lying to me and I should stop listening. 16:54:49 ihope: what's the use? you're lying to yourself anyway :) 16:55:06 oklocod: only if you're right. :-) 16:55:19 * ehird grabs a silly toy dice. 16:55:21 *die 16:55:42 ihope: i'm not right 16:55:51 what i'm saying is complete bullshit 16:56:43 Glad that's settled, then. 16:56:56 this is an awful lot of work for protecting a few forum accounts. 16:56:59 Still, it's more convenient in the end. 16:57:01 I just remember a few words. 16:58:11 * ehird gets plan: Put paper with passphrase in plain view and file with it in in plain view until completely memorized. Then, eliminate. 16:58:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:59:08 My passwords are all generated by a simple algorithm. 16:59:17 Hopefully, nobody knows what that algorithm is. 16:59:31 I kind of give hints every once in a while. I should stop doing that. 17:01:02 -!- Ilari has quit ("Won't be back for a while..."). 17:04:20 okay. roll here goes. 17:04:52 Does that mean I can say "ROLL 6"? 17:04:55 fun POSIX.1-2008 was finished one month ago, I guess too early to start using it though ;P 17:05:08 hmm 17:05:08 and don't seem very useful for what I'm doing currently 17:05:13 A six word passphrase sems reasonable. 17:05:18 77.5 bits of entropy. 17:05:23 ehird, 8 at least 17:05:34 AnMaster: I do not need the same password in 2050. 17:05:37 I will likely change password regularly. 17:05:42 (You can change your GPG key password, right?) 17:06:08 [[# Five words are only breakable by an organization with a large budget. ]] <- I do not think the government wants to spend a few months pooling tons of computers together to break my password. 17:06:08 ehird, yes 17:06:10 Just a hunch, though. 17:06:18 They'd also, of course, have to know I'd used diceware. 17:06:40 ehird, oh they know now, *points to clog* 17:06:49 AnMaster: I'm sure they trawl through logs of this channel daily. 17:06:54 So yes, five words, maaaaaaybe six. 17:07:54 AnMaster: [[Of course, if you are worried about an organization that can break a seven word passphrase in order to read your e-mail, there are a number of other issues you should be concerned with -- such as how well you pay the team of armed guards that are protecting your computer 24 hours a day.]] 17:08:12 heh 17:08:17 well... 17:08:25 ehird, hah yes, but computers are getting faster every year 17:08:37 so in a few years small organizations may be able to do it 17:08:38 and so on 17:08:43 better be on the safe side 17:08:45 how good are botnets at tackling such things? 17:09:04 AnMaster: If I change my password once every year or two that should not be a problem. 17:09:07 As I can increase the size then. 17:09:12 ehird, true 17:09:23 Five words should do nicely. 17:09:25 For now 17:09:50 I have 3 tiny toy dice things made of wood, going to cycle between them. 17:11:08 -!- LinuS has joined. 17:11:12 ehird, you should check if they give even distribution too 17:11:37 They're not weighted or anything. 17:11:43 Probably not evenly distributed, but since I'm using 3 separate ones that should not matter. 17:12:24 ehird, I'm not saying they are weighted, but they could be slightly dented, or have uneven density or be just badly made 17:12:46 Yes, but since I'm cycling between 3 that should not affect the overall outcome. 17:13:03 unless they have a bias in total 17:13:14 yeah but :P 17:13:42 ehird, if you are paranoid enough to make a distributed dice thrower. you have to be paranoid enough for this 17:13:54 I wasn't paranoid for that; it was just novelty. 17:14:05 ah ok 17:14:12 Still, _any_ five word passphrase is gonna be pretty much unbreakable for the purposes of my personal password. 17:14:36 Grr. It'd help if I had a bigger surface than my computer desk >:P 17:14:49 well my desk is big but that won't help... 17:14:53 it is just.... full 17:15:01 ehird, what about the floor? 17:15:01 AnMaster please roll my dice for me ;P 17:15:17 ok.... 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 17:15:18 AnMaster: The carpet probably wouldn't work too well for that 17:15:23 ah, thanks! 17:15:24 :-P 17:15:25 ;P 17:15:36 actually i need 25 rolls :P 17:15:37 * SimonRC makes the obligatory Dilbert and Xkcd references 17:16:13 STOP FALLING ON TO MY KEYBOARD 17:17:15 Well, they did. Now they go for the floor. 17:17:22 i only have 5 rolls XD 17:17:24 so far 17:17:34 3643214155546564222446366462253162632346435125441234213666516265355442131635412233312211613454326236616444516663352612634122155211423522143451633264164361464 17:17:36 what about that? 17:17:44 Shush you 17:17:54 more than 25 yes 17:18:03 but I won't know what subset you select that way 17:18:06 * ehird unplugs mouse 17:18:12 ehird, heh why? 17:18:22 the dice keep hitting the cable. 17:18:28 on the floor? 17:18:40 no, the cable goes in to the monitor, imac remember :-P 17:18:46 oh imac 17:18:54 I didn't know what sort of mac you had 17:19:50 I keep thinking "Huh, this is producing the same numbers all the time" until I realise that there's only 6 possibilities XD 17:20:06 ehird, um? 17:20:11 6 sided dice 17:20:24 he should roll a d256 instead 17:20:28 *g* 17:20:34 SimonRC, that wouldn't be possible 17:20:36 to make 17:20:38 I mean. 17:20:38 AnMaster: should be 17:20:47 ehird, each side would be too small 17:20:52 AnMaster: yes but it should be possible 17:20:52 :P 17:20:54 it would effectively be a ball 17:21:21 2 words done... 17:22:19 ah that gives timing information 17:22:21 ;P 17:22:32 yeah, it lets you know that i suck at rolling dice 17:22:33 :D 17:24:19 * SimonRC offers ehird a big cube of 1000d6 17:24:33 I has seen suck things on sale 17:24:36 *such 17:24:48 (or was it a cuboid of 100d6?) 17:24:53 bbl 17:24:59 yay one word to go 17:25:30 That depends on whether it was 10x10x10 or 4x5x5. 17:25:32 :-P 17:26:27 * ehird looks up numbers 17:31:31 There are d100s generally available. 17:31:34 They look like a golf ball. 17:32:02 I would assume you *could* make a d256, which would just be something like a tennis-ball-sized golf ball. 17:32:35 Yay, password chosen 17:32:57 -!- Corun has joined. 17:32:58 Now to memorize it. 17:33:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Zocchihedron2.jpg has a picture. 17:33:04 I like it, though. It's pretty: hunter2 17:35:14 XD 17:35:24 nothing like the classics 17:35:48 Haha, april fools idea: A password-generating algorithm that has many steps but guarantees a completely secure, completely memorable password 17:35:53 if you follow the steps, you get hunter2 every time 17:35:57 heh 17:39:53 Great. Password chosen. Now to change my gpg key to use it. 17:40:41 why can't gpg and ssh keys be the same? 17:41:09 I thought the math behind them was the same anyway. 17:42:49 SimonRC: That's exactly what I wanted. 17:42:53 It is the same system, yes. 17:43:00 I'm just going to use the same passphrase for both. 17:43:52 hm: 17:43:54 [[Changing one's pass phrase often is desirable -- it isn't if you don't 17:43:54 change your key at the same time]] 17:43:57 I'll make a new key then. 17:44:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:47:32 ehird, depends on how you use it 17:47:39 for login you wouldn't need to change key 17:47:43 Well, it wasn't anywhere but here and rutian. 17:47:46 But there, new key generated. 17:47:59 ... 17:48:04 * ehird realises huge stupid flaw in his login system 17:48:08 well my public ssh key(s) are in lots of places 17:48:10 it lets anyone trusted by the gpg system on rutian log in as me 17:48:10 XD 17:48:14 * ehird fixes 17:49:10 hm it seems POSIX.1-2008 adds several previously GNU specific functions 17:49:12 strange 17:49:29 I mean in 2001 revision GNU was mostly ignored 17:49:46 I guess Linux is more mainstream these days 17:51:57 yay i've almost memorized my password without even trying ^_^ 17:52:09 it is five random words? 17:52:21 how many bits of entropy? 17:52:22 Asztal, F#? Pronounced as F-blunt right? 17:52:30 harsh, man 17:52:31 oerjan: lol 17:52:38 heh 17:52:54 SimonRC: 77.5 bits of entropy, I believe. 17:52:58 no, F# is pronounced "OCaML.NET" 17:52:58 I used diceware. 17:53:03 So 25 dice rolls. 17:53:05 http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.html 17:53:55 also, OCaml is spelled OCaml 17:53:57 not OCaML 17:54:32 oops, yeah 17:57:59 oklocod: based on psygnisfive's analysis 18:02:55 -!- Linus` has joined. 18:03:15 hey 18:03:19 my analysis?? 18:03:31 your last name is an anagram of either sole or sola 18:03:38 oh 18:03:50 sent my guess in private :D 18:04:20 :p 18:04:32 theres only like 24 possiblities :P 18:04:44 well 18:04:47 guess my phone number instead :P 18:04:51 48 but effectivly 24 18:04:57 sure, but there was one that sprung nearly immediately to mind 18:05:26 (maybe he's told it before though. or maybe it's completely wrong.) 18:05:41 which was that 18:06:15 slVV seems unlikly, as does lsVV and VVsl and VVls 18:06:27 i'm not saying in public but a finnish name list made at least the first name very likely 18:06:48 so that rules out 8 possibilities 18:06:53 and my guess has google hits, including facebook 18:06:59 oh well i know what his first name is 18:07:19 i just forget if its written with an a or an e 18:08:01 the name list only had the e version 18:08:41 hmm 18:08:41 ok the other also exists 18:08:55 ok so his last name islike 18:09:01 policy: New gpg key & new ssh key & new password for both every jan 1st 18:09:03 that seems reasonable 18:09:15 sola or salo or osla or aslo or also or olsa or... 18:09:26 losa and laso seem unfinnish to me 18:12:10 * SimonRC wonders what this net obsession with hiding one's name is for 18:12:23 SimonRC: beats me 18:12:31 right to vanish? 18:13:03 oerjan: yeah, you got it right 18:13:10 * oerjan dances around 18:13:16 Hmm. 18:13:26 i *have* told it here, it's not exactly a secret 18:13:31 well it is now, of course 18:13:36 :o 18:13:41 oklopol, what is it? 18:13:43 ok that may have been in my memory somewhere then 18:14:00 yeah i would keep it secret too if psygnisfive was stalking me ;D 18:14:08 Okay, so I need to write a FOAF file thingy, then I have to write the firefox thingy that logs me in to sites from the gpg-encrypted random-pass file then elliott.hird.name has to be bought. 18:14:09 stalking? no sir 18:14:11 Then I shall be happy. 18:14:12 * SimonRC recalls that Oklo is where the 2000000000-year-old nuclear reactor is 18:14:23 im oklopols slaveboy! 18:14:43 psygnisfive: APOSTROPHE! 18:14:44 you mean that natural reactor somewhere in ghana? 18:14:56 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_nuclear_fission_reactor 18:15:02 "sl" is a bit unfinnishy too 18:15:32 SimonRC: I AM A LINGUIST. DO NOT TREAD IN PLACES YOU DO NOT BELONG. 18:15:39 SimonRC: not that many here are hiding their name; and i'm not either, in general 18:15:54 oklocod: when psygnisfive listed those, i though "Olsa" sounded a bit finnish but the only hits were someone babbling in turkish 18:15:56 it's just i happened to tell the anagram, and i knew psygnisfive would die to know it 18:16:00 i'm hiding my name. it's too hideous for human eyes 18:16:06 ok so if sl is unfinnishy that rules out all the slVV, VslV, and VVsl versions. not like the last one wasnt unpredictably bad 18:16:10 olsa sounds a bit like swedish maybe 18:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you awake?. 18:16:29 oklocod: sola would be norwegian 18:16:38 oerjan: sola is a finnish word 18:16:51 well yeah 18:17:02 it means like a... very small canyon, fizzie or someone can translate, i don't feel like googling 18:17:27 ok so its not slVV, VslV, and VVsl, nor VVls, VlsV, nor lsVV, so those rule out all but 18:17:32 so psygnisfive: why can't the last name have an i? 18:17:43 VsVl, sVlV, lVsV, and VlVs 18:17:53 doesnt your FIRST name have an i? 18:18:06 err based on what? 18:18:16 based on you told me your first name? :P 18:18:22 i did? 18:18:25 yes 18:18:29 you *know* my first name okay 18:18:31 rrright 18:18:40 or maybe the girly did 18:18:44 that might explain why you haven't considered vola or something :P 18:18:45 shes nicer. >| 18:18:54 yeah maybe you should stalk her instead? 18:18:57 :-) 18:19:03 yeah but shes not a guy 18:19:06 who does esolangs 18:19:10 and has a massive finnish cock 18:19:11 :O 18:19:13 hmm i wonder if that yogurt is still good for eating 18:19:16 the last one im just guessing but 18:19:24 haha 18:19:27 well i don't wanna brag 18:19:28 ->' 18:19:38 ->' is this a pictorial representation of your penis? 18:19:38 but your cock is the size of an apostrophe? 18:19:38 D: 18:19:41 to scale? 18:20:08 ehird: you're not as fast as me, when it comes to fawning over penises. 18:20:11 what size font? 18:20:12 '. <- my cock, next to the Earth 18:20:14 you'll have to try harder 18:21:00 lament: i find it hard to believe that you could've found enough food to grow a penis that large, especially given that human tissue is about 75% water, and that would have more water than is on and in the earth 18:21:02 -!- LinuS has quit (No route to host). 18:21:31 i didn't grow it 18:21:35 it was always like that 18:21:39 watch is psygnisfive applies logic inappropriately 18:21:43 *as 18:22:00 poor lament; for he can have no sex life 18:22:04 19:19:01 ehird: ->' is this a pictorial representation of your penis? 18:22:04 19:19:02 psygnisfive: but your cock is the size of an apostrophe? 18:22:05 psygnisfive: hey hey don't be so negative. here we have the solution to all the world's water shortages 18:22:05 SimonRC, your sense of humor sucks. you should watch big bang theory. 18:22:05 oh, you have no idea 18:22:07 psygnisfive: he's faster. 18:22:20 oerjan: genius! :o 18:22:24 actually SimonRC's sense of humour is better than psygnisfive's 18:22:29 my sex life is limited, i only know one woman who's big enough 18:22:32 ...YOUR MOM 18:22:34 oklopol: you're closer to him then. 18:22:40 i got ehirds after i sent mine 18:23:01 visible network size :o 18:23:29 psygnisfive: indeed that _would_ be a big bang 18:23:35 ;D 18:23:40 no theres this tv show called big bang theory 18:23:42 its like 18:23:48 nerd sitcom 18:24:03 vaguely similar to The IT Crowd, but not british 18:24:25 half the jokes should make absolutely no sense if you dont have a basic knowledge of the argument of grand unified theories 18:24:36 or some other similar phenomena 18:24:45 My mom loves that show. 18:24:46 as long as you don't have to understand the math 18:24:47 oerjan: psygnisfive: indeed that _would_ be a big bang <<< oerjan: so, usually you part, now you're making sex jokes? i'm assuming you're oerjan's nephew or something 18:24:53 we should uh join our forces? 18:24:53 * ihope waits for someone to say "YOUR MOM loves that show" 18:24:56 heh :D 18:25:11 one of the characters, sheldon, has this tendency to not realize jokes are jokes 18:25:17 i don't have siblings, so no nephews 18:25:20 and instead tries to explain the illogical facets of the set up 18:25:28 same with sarcasm, etc. 18:25:30 its hilarious. 18:25:36 oerjan: prolly not, because you're about 9 years old 18:25:52 oklocod: well my dad thinks so sometimes 18:26:08 oklopol: he could be like that one british woman whos family had a generation size of like 13 years 18:26:10 whyäs that? 18:26:14 *why's 18:26:57 just because i'm 38, doesn't mean i've actually grown up 18:28:21 oklocod: i don't mind sex jokes as long as they're not too graphic 18:28:45 oerjan: quick make a pun on that 18:29:04 oerjan: yeah i see, i guess it's a generation thing, i don't see anything as "too graphic" really 18:29:05 well, sometimes it is fun to apply logic in silly places... 18:30:01 oerjan: three guys walk into a sex club, the size queen goes to the fisting area and gets his ass stretched real wide, the ... 18:30:07 shall i continue? ;D 18:30:11 NO 18:30:18 good, because its not a real joke. 18:30:32 i sort of guessed 18:30:44 psygnisfive: then makes a website about it? 18:30:50 i was just gonna end it with the masochist enjoying pain so much he denies himself the pleasure of receiving it 18:31:02 simonrc: speaking lolcatese now? 18:31:41 psygnisfive: sorry I meant: "... then he makes a website about it"? 18:32:02 i.e. the notorious goatse.cx 18:32:08 or .cz nowadays 18:32:13 oh, sure i guess 18:32:14 if you want 18:32:32 I was trying to think how to continue the story, that is all :-) 18:32:51 we can look up BDSM jokes 18:33:00 they must exist 18:33:18 and they do! :D 18:33:45 so what is the rule that says, if it exists then there are jokes about it? 18:34:23 related to rule 34 I suppose 18:34:57 i know that one already 18:35:06 well, I guessed that 18:35:42 its some corollary 18:35:56 psygnisfive: APOSTROPHE! 18:36:01 *cough* 18:36:08 simonrc, weve gone over this already 18:36:12 im the linguist, youre not 18:36:21 ITYM "your" 18:36:29 thats a spelling difference 18:36:31 and when was that? 18:36:35 theres a huge difference there! 18:36:40 SimonRC: no, "you're" 18:36:49 oerjan: I was joking 18:36:59 punctuation is extremely artificial 18:37:14 and capitalization is wholly unnecessary; i agree with bauhaus on this matter 18:37:21 SimonRC: from the "youre" my guess is psygnisfive simply doesn't use the apostrophe key 18:37:23 but conventional 18:37:36 psygnisfive: yes, but english is ugly in just about every aspect 18:37:41 oerjan: yes. I was gently ridiculing her. 18:37:43 you might as well invent your own language and talk to us in it here 18:37:48 oerjan: actually youll notice that i havent used it since he said APOSTROPHE a second time :) 18:37:52 SimonRC: he. 18:38:03 ehird: english is quite pretty, dont be a horrible person. :| 18:38:05 psygnisfive: if you want to talk to us in english, talk to us in _english_ 18:38:07 arent YOU english? HAVE SOME PRIDE MAN 18:38:28 well, i COULD use my conlang... 18:38:33 but that has funny sounds 18:38:36 and then we'd all ignore you, probably. 18:39:22 18:22 psygnisfive> oklopol: you're closer to him then. 18:39:28 that's the last i could find 18:39:36 long before the second APOSTROPHE 18:39:43 well yes 18:39:49 but what i said wasnt false :P 18:40:15 i instinctually did go to type the apostrophe in you're and such but intentionally suppressed it 18:40:30 after he commented a second time, i mean 18:40:39 yeah, you show him. 18:41:05 psygnisfive is taking that more seriously than I expected 18:41:30 simonrc: thats what you get for trying to be humorous :D 18:41:42 SimonRC: psygnisfive takes _everything_ more seriously than one expects :D 18:41:50 wiiyzyweenywaajö' #wïïjod zyweenywaybaï̇ #mwejaysïwaẏh 18:42:08 um 18:42:19 nice phoneme inventory 18:42:22 that's some long vowels 18:42:22 ehird said i should make up a language 18:42:30 actually thats all orthography 18:42:35 psygnisfive: does that actually mean anything 18:42:57 its a transliteration of a sentence im basing the sound of the language on. 18:43:15 a quote from farscape. it means something like "we just wanted to get a closer look, but the wormhole pulled us in" 18:43:34 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:43:48 19:38… ehird: and then we'd all ignore you, probably. 18:43:53 i'd probably learn it 18:44:01 :o 18:44:07 now i REALLY should finish the language 18:44:11 the only reason i haven't learned lojban yet is no one i know knows it 18:44:21 oklocod, it sounds AWESOME. 18:44:34 psygnisfive: make a reocrding 18:44:34 initially people think it sounds like backwards english but it actually doesnt 18:44:46 i can give you the samples from the show 18:44:50 a few have said they will, but people simply don't have the stamina for something that useless 18:45:06 oklocod: ill learn lojban with you 18:45:19 err you hate lojban 18:45:32 i hate the way it sounds 18:45:35 but so what? 18:45:45 oh, i think the sound is one of its best parts 18:45:47 i hate the way spanish sounds and i can still explain an ipod warranty and return policy 18:45:49 um lojban sounds awesome 18:45:54 spanish sounds awful 18:45:59 lojban sounds unnatural to me 18:46:12 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1710885982433758647 <-- stupid little cartoon thing that is only redeemed by AWESOME LOJBAN SOUND 18:46:21 it makes anything good 18:46:31 they should call lojban awesomeban. 18:46:34 qed 18:46:52 ehird: http://www.wellnowwhat.net/Farscape_linguistics/Sebacean-[0-6].wav 18:47:00 ahh! no page! 18:47:01 where [0-6] is a proper range, not part of the file name 18:47:10 o 18:47:20 aah! no page! 18:47:28 psygnisfive: 18:47:58 *ahh! no page! 18:48:14 listening to this bit of lojban 18:48:22 psygnisfive: fix the links 18:48:24 it sounds nothing like their official descriptions of the way the language sounds 18:48:37 oh sorry, it should be 1-6 18:48:51 e.e 18:49:00 damn inconsistent indexing 18:49:16 * SimonRC goes to listen to Dr Who on BBC 7. 18:49:35 psygnisfive: how do you make that click "hck" sound >_< 18:49:45 hahaha 18:49:55 JPW 18:49:55 its hard to describe 18:49:56 what's sebacean? 18:49:56 *HOW 18:50:06 oh 18:50:07 it's that 18:50:26 i can tell you how to start, and then guide you through getting closer to the correct way of doing it 18:50:42 too much work 18:50:46 correct as far as im concerned 18:50:47 :D 18:50:55 guess you wont be learning sebacean then, HUH 18:50:58 yes 18:51:09 i will. 18:51:15 i won't 18:51:16 bitch 18:51:19 is it an existing consonant or one of your own? 18:51:32 its not an IPA consonant 18:51:50 it doesnt exist in any natural language 18:51:53 but it could 18:52:34 hmph, i hate dogs 18:52:45 i dislike most dogs. 18:53:18 ESPECIALLY for sexual purposes. i mean, honestly, who would fuck a retriever? weirdos. 18:53:22 this one is lying right next to me, farting, and silently judging me as i'm making funny consonants up. 18:53:34 well yeah, that's a good point 18:53:37 :D 18:53:58 * oklocod needs something to drink 18:54:07 happiness is a warm puppy 18:54:11 or so i heard 18:55:15 if you're into abusing beastiality i can give you a delightfully cruel fantasy :o 18:55:31 you and your silly anecdotes 18:55:34 one compound word: puppy condoms 18:56:04 also: http://community.livejournal.com/ftmvanity/876303.html#cutid1 <3 18:56:22 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:57:43 is the point that he's cute, was did that have to do with bestiality? 18:57:53 the point is that hes gorgeous 18:57:54 *or did 18:58:12 yeah the comments somewhat gave that away 18:58:16 and also that he used to be a girl 18:59:05 lol, if i think he's a girl, he indeed does looks somewhat cute 18:59:19 hes a boy sir, and a cute one at that. 18:59:47 he doesnt even look like a girl 18:59:57 which is awesome 19:00:04 chin does 19:00:16 and the lower part of the face 19:00:17 nah. ive seen lots of guys that look similar 19:01:06 the scale is continuous 19:01:11 it is 19:01:16 and theres major overlap 19:01:22 but to me, he looks like a guy. 19:01:34 err yes, definitely 19:02:57 its a shame he has a vagina. :\ 19:03:00 but thats life 19:04:16 "you know what's so wrong about gayness? if there's two guys, who has the vagina?" "yeah, you gotta have a vagina" "vaginas are great, wish i had one" 19:04:21 (another american dad quote) 19:04:23 (related) 19:04:41 american dad sounds stupid. 19:05:05 primarily because a stereotype (not untrue) about straight guys is that they always wanna fuck a chick in the ass 19:05:20 so that comment sounds more like an intentional homophobic joke than anything else 19:05:41 oh noes the joke is homophobic 19:05:54 its one thing if its monty python homophobic 19:06:01 because, you know, its funny 19:06:13 ah. so only famous comedians can be homophobia 19:06:15 *homophobic 19:06:22 no, only good comedians can 19:06:29 just like only good comedians can be racist 19:06:39 the joke is the first guys say vaginas are great for banging, last guy joins in, and says (without stealing focus), that he's like to *have* a vagina 19:06:45 at least that's what i laughed at. 19:07:01 oh 19:07:03 thats not a joke 19:07:05 thats true 19:07:12 straight american guys want to be hot chicks. 19:07:23 its a fairly well established but rarely spoken about fact. 19:07:52 mm'kay 19:08:02 well anyway, who said that was even a joke 19:08:13 i don't watch ad for it's humor value 19:08:13 straight american men are so afraid of being perceived as homosexual that they actual want to BE women. they only like having cocks because cocks are used to fuck women. 19:08:22 i watch is as drama 19:08:33 haha 19:09:29 and while what you say may be true (and afaik all things are true), i don't think that makes the joke bad. 19:09:45 i like all jokes that aren't based on a punchline or a pun 19:10:00 and i like some jokes based on misunderstandings 19:10:21 see, i didnt even see the misunderstanding 19:10:31 im not even sure if there was one. i suppose it depends on what followed 19:10:36 i don't consider that a misunderstanding 19:12:49 the joke is, liking vaginas is something that, in the pseudoworld where i live and where that joke works, is a manly thing; if you like a vagina, you're manly; once it goes over a certain point, you become the opposite of manly, because you suddenly want to be a woman 19:13:12 at least that's how i see it, what do i know. 19:13:16 err 19:13:23 that pseudoworld is called american straight mandom. 19:13:34 hence why i didnt see the joke, what with the show being about precisely that 19:13:41 yeah, i believe that's what ad is all about. 19:13:50 yeah 19:14:25 "I wish I was a girly, just like my dear Pa-Pa!" 19:14:46 but the irony is that straight men in america often want to fuck chicks in the ass. sometimes more than in the pussy. 19:14:59 psygnisfive: that's irrelevant 19:15:23 au contraire 19:15:25 if there's a world in which the joke is funny, and a world i can picture in my head, the joke is inherently funny. 19:15:35 if straight men prefer ass, then its very relevant indeed! 19:15:35 psygnisfive: Do you think you could talk about something other than sex just once in #esoteric? 19:15:37 Maybe? 19:15:41 (Or linguistics.) 19:15:48 Just sayin'. 19:16:05 this was partly my fault too 19:16:07 ehird: i'd love to, but noone seems to be interested in actually esoteric programming concepts. all i see is rehashing old ideas. 19:16:09 what can i say! 19:16:25 psygnisfive: so have i talked to you about noprob? 19:16:31 psygnisfive: Well, how would you know? You never try. 19:17:06 ehird: i do! but then i stopped because you were all like "blah blah blah talking about brainfuck is edgy and esoteric grr" 19:17:11 -!- Judofyr has quit. 19:17:11 oklocod: no tell me :D 19:17:22 psygnisfive: no we weren't, but besides, what is wrong with brainfuck? 19:17:42 It's _so_ last century :D 19:17:42 the rehashing of old ideas is that most genuinely mathematically interesting stuff is rare in all fields where amateurs make the content 19:17:43 nothings wrong with brainfuck, its just like talking about latin and then claiming you're esoteric 19:17:54 except latin used to be used seriously. 19:18:01 errr 19:18:11 *because somewhere in there 19:18:14 i can't english. 19:18:15 oerjan: last century? :-D 19:18:17 Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur 19:18:19 ye olde brainfucke 19:18:46 contrary to popular believe, "ye" in such constructions is not said with a y sound 19:18:55 its actually said just like "the" 19:19:03 irrelevant 19:19:07 it's ye olde thorn 19:19:08 *belief 19:19:13 "ye olde brainfucke" is not exactly circa-1900 english. 19:19:19 its not even the old thorn 19:19:25 thörn 19:19:26 its post-dethornification 19:19:34 psygnisfive: do you know 3-sat 19:19:35 ? 19:19:41 i do not sir! :o 19:20:14 well it's just about having your boolean expressions in CNF in clauses of size 3 19:20:24 oh do tell 19:20:47 for instance (A | b | C) ^ (B | c | d) 19:20:57 but you could have more of those toplevel (* | * | *)'s 19:21:01 anded together 19:21:10 A-Z are just boolean variables 19:21:14 oklopol, i want to formulate a lambda-like model of functions. 19:21:17 a-z are just their negations 19:21:21 thats not actually lambdas 19:21:28 but similar in some ways 19:21:31 ...what? 19:21:35 ^bf -[.-] 19:21:36 Usage: ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 19:21:40 what what 19:21:41 oklocod: he's ignoring your idea 19:21:43 and talking about his own. 19:21:45 huh? 19:21:52 im not ignoring, im listening AND reading 19:21:58 er 19:22:02 oh 19:22:02 that shouldve been 19:22:04 listening and typing 19:22:09 or typing and reading 19:22:11 D: 19:22:14 is something wrong with fungot? 19:22:14 oerjan: i've only worn this shirt for three years, man! you have a whip? why do you know what? those were all from me. 19:22:27 did you mean "a lambda-like model of functions thats not about lambdas"? 19:22:29 i mean 19:22:36 why would my 3-sat language be about lambdas 19:22:37 ^bf +[.+] 19:22:37 Usage: ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 19:22:42 ^show 19:22:43 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 19:22:46 i wasnt suggestionf for 3sat 19:22:57 i dont understand what (a | b | c) means 19:22:59 ^echo test 19:23:00 test test 19:23:03 oh. 19:23:05 | is an or 19:23:09 ^ is an and 19:23:14 that was a bit confusing, sorry 19:23:15 ^def test bf -[.-] 19:23:15 Defined. 19:23:18 ^test 19:23:18 ~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:987654321 ... 19:23:21 i always forget people can't see what i think 19:23:33 right 19:23:35 but then 19:23:42 whats the whole three-way thing??? 19:23:44 fizzie: the ^bf command isn't working alone anymore 19:23:52 psygnisfive: clauses are of size 3 19:23:56 (1 | 2 | 3) 19:23:57 why 19:24:04 because that's the definition of 3-sat 19:24:06 silly boy 19:24:25 well, 3-sat is an np-complete problem where you try to find the values for these vars so that the overall result is true 19:24:35 you can convert all boolean circuits to this form 19:24:37 ok 19:24:54 it's just for tarpitty notation's sake that the actual language is in 3-sat form 19:25:01 so you don't have to use any whitespace 19:25:11 but, the actual idea was 19:25:21 i augmented 3-sat with probabilities 19:25:51 ^help 19:25:51 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 19:26:00 you have these special variabels that are true with a 50% probability 19:26:15 you can use them to create any probability you like on a variable 19:26:18 ^ul (a)S 19:26:18 a 19:26:23 well you could use lukasiewicz notation for all your functions and get rid of white space 19:26:24 :o 19:26:25 (this is the only way to represent numbers) 19:26:29 ...functions? 19:26:31 psygnisfive: there aren't any functions. 19:26:33 what about functions? 19:26:42 | is a function. 19:26:46 psygnisfive: um, I think perhaps you're missing out on all the good esolang ideas because you don't understand any of them 19:26:48 from BxB->B 19:26:55 there are problotures for expressing infinite expressions tail-recursively 19:27:10 lukasiewicz notation is harder to comprehend, ehird. 19:27:26 psygnisfive: i doubt lukasiewicz notation can beat just *skipping all marking for functions altogether* 19:27:44 what do you mean markings for functions? 19:27:49 >__< 19:27:52 if it can, then okay, lukasiewicz beat me. 19:27:59 psygnisfive: the |'a and ^'s 19:28:07 you just said those are the functions 19:28:10 and i said there are no functions 19:28:13 so what do you think 19:28:16 of course i mean what you meant 19:28:17 yes, i didnt know what you meant by markings. 19:28:21 oh. 19:28:22 notation 19:28:30 it doesnt skip those but it DOES skip the parens. :) 19:28:39 err yeah i don't need those either 19:28:43 oh? 19:28:44 but.. 19:28:55 (a|b|c)^(d|e|f)?? 19:29:10 Oh? I must've screwed it up when doing the ^ul command. 19:29:13 ^ul (foo)S 19:29:13 foo 19:29:21 ^bf +. 19:29:21 Usage: ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 19:29:23 Heh. 19:29:36 psygnisfive: that'd be abcdef in my notation 19:29:41 i was just explaining what 3-sat is 19:29:46 i haven't talked about my notation 19:29:46 fizzie: also i'm not sure whether that ^ul is the builtin or the bf version 19:29:56 ^show ul 19:29:56 >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>] 19:29:57 bf 19:30:00 adjacency is both disjunction and conjunction? 19:30:02 That's the builtin, actually. 19:30:06 psygnisfive: yeah 19:30:07 ehird: that proves nothing 19:30:11 It just shows the old bf version. 19:30:12 huh 19:30:14 every third is a disjunction to be exact 19:30:15 how do you prevent ambiguities? 19:30:21 oh 19:30:24 so everything is just 19:30:28 ^ul (fooo bar baz quux):*:*S 19:30:28 fooo bar baz quuxfooo bar baz quuxfooo bar baz quuxfooo bar baz quux 19:30:31 conj conj disj conj conj dis 19:30:34 You can tell from the speed. 19:30:42 but 19:30:48 that doesnt comput 19:30:55 ah 19:30:56 do you mean every third adjacency? 19:30:58 But the 'bf' command won't work because the 'ul' command is in the way. Heh. 19:31:01 psygnisfive: yeah 19:31:03 ok 19:31:18 but then it CANT be abcdef in your notation 19:31:20 since that should be 19:31:24 but i don't see why you'd care for the syntax, *that* the esolang communite definitely has enough creative ideas for 19:31:28 a and b and c or d and e and f 19:31:31 but you wrote 19:31:36 *community 19:31:36 a or b or c and d or e or f 19:31:48 ^reload 19:31:48 Reloaded. 19:31:50 psygnisfive: yeah also you have to put the parens there 19:31:54 ^bf ,[.,]!foo 19:31:55 foo 19:32:07 yes, but we know where the parens go. 19:32:20 err yes, that's my point 19:32:23 the point is that the former is not the same as the latter 19:32:37 and if every third adjacency is disjunction 19:32:39 ^ul (:(test )S^):^ 19:32:40 test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test t 19:32:51 psygnisfive: that's just because i'm confusing conjunction and disjunction 19:32:56 ok :) 19:33:07 and disunction has higher scope than conjunction i take it 19:33:10 i pair things up in my head, sometimes i happen to pair two very related things 19:33:35 or rather 19:33:46 Hmm, output length limits are still missing from the built-in ul interp. 19:33:50 everything is by threes, alternatingly up the hierarchy 19:34:01 so that all disjunctions are in conjunctions, and vice versa, if they're in anything at all 19:34:02 hm. 19:34:17 interesting inded! 19:34:36 that's just 3-sat, and a trivial way to express it concisely 19:34:54 that's not the interesting part :P 19:35:15 lukasiewicz notation is sort of like combinatory notation but it has no parens at all since it doesnt let you combine operators 19:35:25 combine like what? 19:35:29 oklopol, im a syntactician, i like novel syntax. 19:35:33 ok so: 19:35:38 err 19:35:46 in luke's notation 19:35:53 isn't the whole esolang wiki full of syntax ideas? 19:36:07 i thought the issue is most are based on the same few concepts 19:36:27 C = implication, A = or, K = and, E = biconditional, N = negation 19:36:45 the syntax ideas on the wiki are silly. 19:36:48 and most of the ideas are too. 19:37:00 ok so lukes notation is, everything is binary except N 19:37:12 its just polish notation, really 19:37:19 but it ends up being completely incomprehensible 19:37:26 how's that? 19:37:40 AsKEKpCqrKApqrt 19:37:51 which is another way of writing 19:38:22 yeah i read polish 19:38:28 s or (p(q -> r) <-> (p or q)r)t 19:38:46 hmm 19:38:49 ah, A is or 19:38:52 where adjaceny is and, and where and has higher precedence than or 19:38:55 A for alternation 19:39:00 K for conjunction 19:39:03 c for conditional 19:39:05 E for equal 19:39:59 (i've invented it once too) 19:40:37 (it was for this language, long before i knew about esolangs or polish notation, a language for this router game i was planning, basically you'd program the protocols for sending packets around a large network) 19:40:37 i like it. its nice and algebraically usable, but requires that you sit down and think about it 19:40:56 ok, youll need to tell me more about 3sat later. im off to shower then get food. <3 19:41:04 3-sat is a trivial concept :P 19:41:19 you should ban | and ^ 19:41:23 has nothing to do with me, just inspired me 19:41:26 err 19:41:29 and instead require everything be in sheffer stroke 19:41:30 i mean i didn't invent it 19:41:31 it's not mine 19:41:39 oh. well modify it 19:41:40 psygnisfive: ^ and | have nothing to do with noprob 19:41:44 except in the wimpmode 19:41:58 sheffer-stroke-only would make it ridiculously verbose 19:42:02 i don't modify it, i've extended it 19:42:05 more than mandatory ternariality 19:42:08 i guess that's modification 19:42:08 ok byes 19:42:09 <3 19:42:13 but the dog is farting again 19:42:16 and i don't like it. 19:42:24 byesss 19:42:52 ais523: here? 19:43:21 he's not 19:43:37 i see. 19:44:18 i'm thinking of adding a second construct to noprob :< 19:44:34 branch-less-than, basically 19:45:42 because after the "reversible multiplication" idea died of stupidity, i haven't had a way to actually do any visible computation in a pure way 19:45:42 SELLOUT 19:45:46 :< 19:46:09 i will basically either have to add that, or a branch-if-less-than-50%..... 19:46:17 and that's goddamn ugly. 19:46:21 much much uglier 19:47:16 anyway, this would allow for using the probabilities for something other than purely storing integers n as (1/2^n) probabilities 19:47:24 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:47:25 because 19:48:08 well, no because, it follows trivially, that once you have a way to compare things, and do calculations with them, you have numbers 19:49:08 ...and that was the because 19:50:44 hmm.... the language doesn't really have an ordering, on any level in the parse tree, that is, on any sequence of expressions, you can always shuffle the code in any way you like 19:51:04 trivial property of 3-sat 19:51:16 so i wonder... monads? 19:51:20 :----D 19:52:15 i think i'll read a bit, i'm just getting a coding spark, and i can't code because i have to read, and i go back to irc 19:52:16 -> 19:57:04 Actually the current data-set, even though it's so tiny, works surprisingly well: http://zem.fi/~fis/botconv.txt 19:58:26 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:58:46 fungot: hi 19:58:46 ehird: no! in fact, that is precisely what you may not say! and brian and i are going to fnord. what was hidden within? unstoppable fnord! fnord. 19:58:59 oh i thought you meant 19:59:00 you fed it that 19:59:21 No, it's still the penny-arcade thing. I can try the fungot loop too, though. 19:59:21 fizzie: why did that samurai fnord his own life for the life of the international playboy. mark each mommy with a flag or whatever they use over there. 19:59:44 fizzie: :D 20:00:20 you know 20:00:26 if faced with fungot in a turing test 20:00:26 psygnisfive: to: fnord fnord. eleven year-olds can't go. doom 3 comes out tomorrow. you'll just plug it in! where you going, tough guy? don't think i want it! no, the full version would destroy you. trust me, buddy? 20:00:35 i'd be tempted to say it's a person. 20:00:37 ::( 20:00:42 fizzie: feed it rap lyrics 20:00:49 this is what #esoteric has done to me. its made me expect randomness from IRC 20:00:50 yo niggas fnord fnord fnord 20:02:06 If you have a big pile of rap lyrics, sure. I had to crawl those Penny Arcade transcripts from pennyarcade.wikia.com, too; people are very bad in making interesting text data available in some simple way. 20:02:46 reh 20:02:48 i 20:02:53 fizzie: http://lyricwiki.org/Main_Page 20:02:59 -!- Linus` has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 20:03:03 http://lyricwiki.org/Category:Genre/Rap 20:03:15 only 125 categorized 20:03:15 hmph 20:03:22 http://lyricwiki.org/Category:Genre/Computer_Science_Gangsta_Rap 20:03:55 Uh. 20:04:09 XD 20:04:23 "System.print(), goddamn I'm fly. (Don't forget the semicolons too)" 20:04:38 I guess fungot might make a good rapper. 20:04:38 fizzie: welcome to fnord, bitch. you just don't want to talk about sandwiches? i can't do this anymore. jesus, look at these brain numbers. they're off the fnord and hope prey falls into its mouth. exhibit a is a fnord. 20:05:01 http://lyricwiki.org/Monzy:So_Much_Drama_In_The_PhD i love thius 20:05:02 *this 20:05:03 Yes, he's got a suitably dirty mouth, too. 20:05:10 # You are likely / to be eatenbyagrue / If this predicament / seems particularly cruel / ... # 20:06:41 * SimonRC can't recall that guy's name 20:06:44 Meh, that lyricwiki would be nicely crawlable (since all the interesting data seems to have tags around it) if they'd just have a list of songs instead of listing artists and then making arbitrary links to songs. 20:06:47 oh, wait, MC Frontalot 20:06:50 fizzie: they have an api. 20:08:32 Oh, okay. 20:09:32 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:09:57 Oh, that should be pretty easy; I just need to give it a list of artists and then I can fetch all those songs. 20:10:18 -!- Corun_ has joined. 20:12:41 brb 20:13:28 21:04… fizzie: I guess fungot might make a good rapper. 20:13:28 21:04… fungot: fizzie: welcome to fnord, bitch. 20:13:29 oklocod: christmas 2003. i'm up. i'm seeing some shit. 20:13:29 oklocod: yeah, i've got something planned for next month that'll really frost your... oh, that's right he had two fnord and two fnord 20:13:38 lul :> 20:16:18 I'll look at the lyrics thing later, not today; but it might still be a nice experience. Now if fungot could just compose some music too, to go with the lyrics... 20:16:18 fizzie: okay. is it for you? 20:16:30 fungot: Oh, you can? No, it'd be for the whole channel! 20:16:30 fizzie: gurgle... fnord! fnord... that's... that's not mine! fnord? 20:17:08 i've heard worse lyrics 20:17:22 well, possibly. 20:21:40 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:22:47 -!- Corun__ has joined. 20:28:05 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 20:30:58 -!- Corun_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:32:03 -!- jix has joined. 20:36:17 hm worse 20:36:23 must be horrible then 20:36:53 fungot, what language model are you on? 20:36:53 AnMaster: so, it's your job to decide who gets what! 20:37:01 fungot, IRC? 20:37:01 AnMaster: pure hell, fnord by yourself and an army of robots whose behavior you control. is that downtown? i was hoping i could get your aim or something, we could... 20:37:08 No... 20:37:14 fizzie, what is the language model? 20:37:37 Penny Arcade comic strips. 20:37:44 ah I don't read that one 20:37:50 isn't it kind of strange iirc? 20:37:54 as in "I don't get it" 20:38:10 hey didn't xkcd make a parody on it once? 20:38:23 Just about anyone has, I guess. 20:38:28 xkcd might've done it too. 20:38:31 http://xkcd.com/160/ 20:38:32 ah there 20:38:59 Oh, yes, it was that which went a bit fanficcy. 20:39:10 "fanficcy"? 20:39:34 See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash_fiction 20:39:44 ah 20:39:45 right 20:40:16 Anyway, Penny Arcade strip transcriptions were in pennyarcade.wikia.com, so I just crawled them and ran. Well, not literally. 20:40:52 fungot: How do you feel about this particular data set? 20:40:52 fizzie: i know his very heart. the one thing his dark soul fnord for. but fnord it would damn us both. you will fnord to death. 20:41:16 1200 comic strips is not very much material, so there's quite a lot of occurs-only-once words, therefore it's so fnordy. 20:42:03 fizzie, hm wonder if uf is transcribed 20:42:07 wait I got an idea. 20:42:20 mezzacotta 20:42:20 :D 20:42:41 sadly that would be totally impossible even over a small subset 20:43:25 fungot: Do you feel any better now that you don't have the token filtering enabled? 20:43:25 fizzie: alright... " gabe." oh. hmmm. it says here nihilistic is doing the coding and artwork. i'd make stuff up to. 20:43:57 It also quotes quite a lot verbatim, because of the small amount of material. Still, it is amusing every now and then. 20:44:07 fungot: Try saying something more original, please. 20:44:07 fizzie: didn't you try the uninstaller? but daily radar said it sucked! i'm going to introduce myself, and then you'd be all " pow!" and he said, you've got to remember that he does whatever a spider can. he can spin a web and that web can be any size. criminals are also no problem, as he catches them just like flies. 20:44:10 fizzie, I think this is worse than the EU one 20:44:27 A matter of taste, I think. 20:44:47 Did you check that conversation -- http://zem.fi/~fis/botconv.txt -- I had with it? Very coherent. 20:44:51 if that was a verbatim quote it makes no sense 20:44:55 I tried pride and prejudice... it was quite odd 20:45:44 hmm, I have red dwarf 1 to 4 if you want it 20:46:09 fizzie, there is this one too http://xkcd.com/50/ 20:46:55 Yes, PA's so popular it's been referenced by quite a lot of other webcomics. 20:47:11 fizzie, can't understand why it is popular 20:47:37 I don't see why not; and the topic material is a popular one. 20:47:41 I mean xkcd, uf, irregular and darth and droids sure, possibly also ctrl-alt-del (don't like it personally) 20:47:42 There's quite a lot of them gamers around. 20:47:46 oh well 20:48:21 I guess the ones I read show I'm no traditional gamer (uf, xkcd, irregular webcomic, darth and droids) 20:48:23 ;P 20:48:31 Actually quite many people would say the same about UF, and even though I still read it out of habit, I don't think I've been very amused by it in a long time. 20:48:32 (yes I like a few rpg) 20:48:51 fizzie, I found today's one quite fun 20:49:19 back 20:50:09 fizzie, so what ones do you read? 20:50:26 AnMaster: Uh, quite a pile. Around 40 or so. 20:50:33 huh 20:50:47 UF is really boring 20:50:49 it's like 3 jokes. 20:50:50 fizzie, what sort of comics 20:50:55 and half-baked storylines. 20:51:21 I'm quite a fan of http://buttersafe.com/. 20:51:24 ehird, I wouldn't say it is that bad 20:51:58 AnMaster: Also a very wide variety. I'm not going to start naming names; most of them would probably be too embarrassing to admit reading of. 20:52:09 haha 20:52:16 well four is enough for me 20:52:22 fizzie: My Little Pony: Comic edition. 20:52:47 ehird, explosm or whatever that horrible one is called could also be in that collection that is "too embarrassing" 20:52:58 Cyanide & Happiness is occasionally funny. 20:53:13 The fans are generally really annoying though 20:53:21 well I don't click links to it any longer because it is crap 99% of the time 20:53:23 and bloody 20:54:07 AnMaster: What's wrong with "offensive" humour? 20:54:16 nothing, I just don't like it 20:54:28 Admittedly, most of the time C&H's humour is merely bland and not actually funny. 20:54:49 I find irregular webcomic to be very high quality usually. Plus the annotations can be quite educating. 20:55:22 iwc goes over my head a lot :( 20:55:30 perhaps i just don't read enough backstory 20:55:39 ehird, never read the whole archive? 20:55:41 If I had to pick few, I rather liked Ozy and Millie (although that one's ending real soon, and it's so... "normal"); PhD Comics (since I might end up as a grad student later); unspeakable vault (of doom) (even though it's not very pretty, and not very fun if you haven't read Lovecraft at all)... 20:55:47 Oh, and Partially Clips, of course. 20:55:47 AnMaster: That would take a while. 20:55:51 * AnMaster has for all the comics he read, including uf 20:56:22 thought that was back when there was only like 5 years for uf, not like 10 years or whatever it is now. 20:56:58 * AnMaster googles "Partially Clips" 20:57:16 I read through the UF archives in.. let's see, 2001? It was something like four years then. 20:57:48 ehird, also I managed iwc archive in about 3 days in total, this summer 20:57:55 Partially Clips uses a single clip-art picture for all three frames, and still manages to be funny. 20:58:37 On the other hand, Dinosaur Comics uses the *same* image every day, and still is sometimes funny too. 20:58:52 I love dinosaur comics 20:59:23 http://xkcd.com/145/ 20:59:40 Yes, I'm sure we've all seen the xkcd parodies. 21:00:07 * AnMaster don't find dinosaur comics funny really 21:00:14 *doesn't. 21:00:26 (How many years have I been pointing out the 3 basic mistakes you make repeatedly? :p) 21:00:32 * AnMaster tones'd agree 21:00:41 what 21:00:46 anagram 21:00:54 doesn't tones't 21:01:00 err 21:01:01 doesn't tones'd 21:01:19 ehird, no I didn't claim it made sense 21:01:41 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 21:01:42 also, xkcd isn't very funny recently. 21:02:12 ehird, it varies 21:02:33 ehird, I like the last one quite 21:02:46 How is it funny? 21:02:55 I mean, really. It isn't. 21:03:08 ehird, you can't explain humor 21:03:11 it destroys it 21:03:22 You can if you're trying to explain why something is funny. 21:03:31 Sure, it ruins it, but if it wasn't ever funny in the first place... 21:03:49 http://xkcd.com/489/ <-- what about that one? 21:03:51 http://www.insaneabode.com/roboterotica/jokesexplained/manwalksintoabar.html <- or does it? 21:04:02 Asztal, yes it does 21:04:34 Asztal, see http://www.mezzacotta.net/singles/jokes_explained_explained.php however for why that particular one may be an exception 21:04:43 which is quite funny itself 21:05:00 since it uses the same tactic on the jokes explained as jokes explained uses on jokes 21:05:12 AnMaster: explanations have to be sufficiently formal to be funny 21:05:16 yours fails that criteria 21:05:39 ehird, I didn't try to make one 21:06:03 since it uses the same tactic on the jokes explained as jokes explained uses on jokes 21:06:14 If that wasn't intended to be a joke in the same vein then you merely have a bad grasp of humour 21:06:17 ehird, that was an example of "how not to do" 21:06:31 AnMaster: no, THAT line is an example of "covering your ass" 21:06:37 ehird, agreed. 21:07:11 ehird, but really I didn't plan to try to make an extra level joke 21:07:39 I could do it, just would take a bit. And I would have had to had that as a goal 21:07:44 which I didn't 21:08:43 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:08:59 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-564-10-24 <-- hehe btw 21:09:47 -!- jix has joined. 21:17:00 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:18:55 ah, yes, mezzacotta 21:21:27 AnMaster: they just randomly generate those don't they. 21:22:16 ehird, yes 21:22:26 haha, really? 21:22:33 ehird, same every time you access a date 21:22:47 I read it was some "fractal algorithm" somewhere 21:22:51 no idea what that would mean 21:22:59 hash(date), probably 21:23:22 ehird, well also they seem to often reuse what the other person said 21:24:26 so I guess some deterministic algorithm of some sort that uses hash(date) as seed. but not totally random, taking whatever has been said in the previous dialog box in consideration 21:24:57 http://www.mezzacotta.net/ haha, the current is great 21:25:16 ehird, not really 21:25:30 AnMaster: but that's an awesome mission statement! 21:25:43 ehird, those are random 21:25:45 on every load 21:25:55 "The webcomic that will revolutionise your web experience." "The webcomic that could use more publicity." 21:25:57 are what I got 21:26:02 after reloading there 21:26:10 ehird, so what one did you mean 21:26:18 I think e's referring to the "Citole: a kind of fiddle" mission statement. 21:26:22 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=2008-10-26 21:26:29 fizzie: yes 21:26:31 fizzie, ah not the tag line 21:26:37 well Citole? I got no clue what that is 21:26:54 There's a definition right in there. 21:26:55 a kind of fiddle! 21:27:03 well 21:27:04 Used like "ribibe", as a jealous lover his mistress. 21:27:12 not really funny though 21:27:20 Yes it is. 21:27:34 ehird, showing again humor is subjective 21:29:31 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:30:01 http://rafb.net/p/4Uiqwe81.html <-- that may interest you 21:30:19 21:34:00 the comic for 22 Sept 654354701 BC is actually mildly amusing: http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?year=654354701&epoch=bc&month=09&day=22 21:34:32 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1433-04-13 21:35:26 WTF, that one makes sense 21:35:41 SimonRC, it was from "hall of fame" 21:35:45 so it is one of the best 21:35:47 ok 21:36:03 all in http://www.mezzacotta.net/halloffame.php make sense or are funny, or at least a lot of ppl think so 21:36:11 I wonder if they bias the randomiser to ones that haven't been rated much yet 21:36:24 SimonRC, iirc yes 21:36:25 And everything in there makes more sense than fungot. :p 21:36:25 fizzie: why, blizzard? soulless dragon demands to knooooow! everything in the store that day, in that line, that i have gone totally batshit fucking loco. 21:36:28 http://www.mezzacotta.net/bestbakes.php 21:36:30 see there 21:36:40 whatever 21:36:49 fizzie, still pa? 21:36:55 Yes. 21:37:05 I don't have time for the lyrics-testing right now. 21:37:21 fizzie, irc or wikipedia are the best ones so far 21:37:53 SimonRC, http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-5679392-11-17 21:38:41 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?year=1&epoch=ad&month=01&day=01 21:38:57 ehird, I seen it 21:39:00 not very good 21:43:43 Well, it's not surprising that IRC works best for IRC; and personally I don't like the Wikipedia one much, although it is mildly amusing the way it keeps on talking about fair use policy and other Wikipedianisms. 21:46:00 the wikipedia what? 21:46:14 SimonRC: language model for fungot 21:46:14 ehird: i can't let these guys know how much i... 21:46:22 fizzie: feed in agora mailing list archives 21:46:22 ehird: ok 21:46:37 fizzie: it'll start using spivak pronouns and ending human titles with or instead of er 21:46:39 SimonRC: I used the raw wiki-markup from 1/256th of all Wikipedia talk pages, with no filtering whatsoever. 21:46:48 and use Gratuitously Capitalialized Words 21:46:50 heh 21:47:07 fizzie: have you considered simply taking a few random words from what the fungot-highlighter said, and making it search for something containing as many of those as possible? 21:47:08 oklocod: i love kingdom hearts. please use it. 21:47:25 hmm 21:47:34 except if it's in befunge, then i guess that may be a bit slow 21:48:10 oklocod: Yes, that is sort of an issue. The "use the original input as the context at the beginning" would be easier, but even that needs conversion from text into tokens. 21:48:56 ehird: The archives are only available to mailing list members, I think. 21:49:14 Although there's those other sites; proposals and such. 21:50:13 fizzie: I can give you them. 21:50:17 (Being a member, of course.) 21:50:59 Okay, fungot's now running on a model built from the current_flr.txt ruleset. 21:51:00 fizzie: the vote collector is the assessor. the default officeholder can become a party to the 21:51:39 Line-wrapping makes the "sensible places to stop text generation" part a bit wonky; should've rewrapped them a bit. 21:52:01 Heh, hi fungot. 21:52:01 ehird: first-class player as eir mentor ( and has not named a 21:52:23 fizzie: Bayes (mine and comex's (the rulekeepor) automated player) does basically the same thing 21:52:31 it has a markov chain of previous proposals and makes proposals based on them 21:52:34 but we don't use it as people got annoyed 21:52:56 good luck making a proposal that actually makes sense 21:53:11 comex: :p 21:53:43 also, fungot ping 21:53:43 comex: the parties to the contract. otherwise, the outcome is failed quorum, regardless of spectral proximity. each color of ribbon is a currency. 21:53:54 I rewrapped that text, so fungot should now not stop in the middle like that. 21:53:55 fizzie: 16 january 2008 amended(49) by proposal 5122 ( zefram), 7 june 2008 amended(1) by proposal 5090 ( zefram), 1 march 2008 21:54:07 does fungot listen to what you say to it? 21:54:08 There's that not-rule-text stuff, though. 21:54:08 SimonRC: history: created by proposal 2783 ( chuck), jan. 20 2000 amended(2) by proposal 5408 ( root), 21:54:13 SimonRC: No, not at all. 21:54:18 pity 21:54:18 fungot 21:54:18 comex: the ambassador is a low-priority office, responsible for managing judicial activity. the cotc's report includes the greatest orderly id number, then its name 21:54:28 that's good 21:54:31 it could otherwise sometimes respond relevantly 21:54:31 fizzie: give it the slr 21:54:33 it would actually do something 21:54:34 as a rule 21:54:38 comex: it's verbatim. 21:54:38 fizzie, heh this one is quite like a slightly sillier version of the EU-parliament one 21:54:39 well 21:54:41 al,most verbatim 21:54:58 ehird: what is fungot exactly? 21:54:58 comex: in a timely fashion" and " as soon as possible as the conditions authorizing em to make the award as soon as possible after receiving a cantus cygneus, detailing eir grievances and expressing eir reproach for those who e feels have treated em so badly. 21:55:05 comex: irc bot written in befunge 21:55:09 oh god 21:55:12 fizzie: link him to the code? 21:55:29 comex, it got a talk generator too 21:55:42 comex: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.html if your browser is compatible with my messy javascript. 21:55:42 fizzie: rule 2153/ 1 ( power=1) scams to fix scamsters. look on our works, ye marvy, but do 21:55:46 ^ul ((comex))^S 21:55:46 comex 21:55:52 ^ul ((comex))S 21:55:52 (comex) 21:56:11 and unlambda interpreter and a brainfuck one 21:57:59 ehird: Gave it the slr (rewrapped with 'fmt'), but I'm not sure it improved much. 21:58:04 fungot: Do you feel any different? 21:58:04 fizzie: upon a win announcement. however, if point holdings are changed in this way, then 5 minutes later all points are destroyed and a number of points owned by a player is poorly qualified to be assigned as a judge does not inherently prevent an entity from continuing to be judge of a judicial case, and in the chief a capital letter a, gules. 21:58:34 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1993-09-28 21:59:15 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-9999999999999-10-18 22:01:32 I discovered another coherent one: http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1964-04-02 22:03:03 Actually did yet another change: used rules_text.txt (because it's a lot longer), and stripped out all non-indented line; this should make fungot read only rule texts, more or less. 22:03:03 fizzie: the player so proposed fills the office, then the ninny must submit to the notary. 22:03:12 06 22:03:13 er 22:03:14 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1993-10-06 22:03:16 is that a random ly generated comic 22:03:19 comex: yes 22:03:21 I wonder if there is any influence of past votes over future comics 22:03:27 um 22:03:30 fizzie 22:03:35 why is rules_text.txt longer? 22:03:59 "This file contains all known texts of all known rules. 22:04:31 While I assume current_foo.txt is just rules-in-effect. Although don't ask me, your the one who does the Agora stuff. 22:04:46 Or one of them, anyway. 22:05:10 ah 22:05:13 fungot: If your 22:05:13 comex: the scorekeepor notification must be via the public forum during the prescribed voting period on that proposal, election or referendum which e would not have passed or not met quorum or both. 22:05:15 *you're :-P 22:05:15 oops 22:05:25 fizzie: anyway, I don't know - those are comex's personal files 22:05:32 ehird: no that was zefram's 22:05:35 not mine 22:05:40 I just have a copy of it 22:05:44 ok. 22:05:51 fungot: If your response to this message makes sense as a set of obligations to impose on me in Agora, I pledge to follow them. 22:05:51 comex: ( a) as soon as possible after being made aware of this condition, randomly select a copy of the requested records within one week. 22:06:28 alright, I have to randomly select a copy of the requested records ASAP 22:06:36 Also within one week. 22:06:36 ...the only question being, which records are requested? 22:06:46 ASAP = within one week 22:06:56 fungot: Can you clarify? 22:06:57 fizzie: an off hold player becomes off hold when e posts a message stating that e insists. a player may, with support. 22:07:23 fungot: no, no, I want to know which records are being requested 22:07:23 comex: there is a subclass of judicial case known as an equity case begins its pre-trial phase. 22:07:36 AH. you're asking for a list of equity casses. 22:07:45 Trying to get any sense out of that bot will probably lead to nowhere fast. 22:07:58 fizzie: he has managed some already 22:07:58 * ehird tells a-d about comex's new obligations 22:08:33 is that a special Agora source file, or just random legsl stuff? 22:08:48 SimonRC: agora ruleset, historical and current 22:08:59 (i.e. a backlog of lots of rules present and past) 22:09:05 cool 22:09:08 except out of date, because I haven't updated it since i became rulekeepor 22:09:13 (since I don't have what e used to generate it) 22:09:15 *g* 22:09:27 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:09:35 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:12:43 -!- kt3k has joined. 22:17:07 http://xmlns.com/foaf/spec/#term_dnaChecksum 22:23:51 wark 22:32:51 * SimonRC goes to bed. 22:38:54 -!- kt3k has quit ("CHOCOA"). 22:48:57 -!- Judofyr has joined. 22:55:09 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 23:00:15 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 23:06:34 More in the "experimental fungot language models" series: now trained with the complete script of the Playstation RPG "Final Fantasy 7". Probably makes zero sense if you haven't played the game. 23:06:35 fizzie: i... i wonder how many of them endless stairways or somethin'? who's gonna go? is the black materia!! 23:06:50 fizzie, I haven't played it indeed 23:07:15 old zelda games I could do, but that isn't a lot of talk in those 23:07:37 fungot, hi 23:07:37 AnMaster: besides, i'm worried too. i'll go and invite your friends? he may be inside... or at least remember my father, at the choco bill and choco billy chocobo farm. 23:07:41 -!- Judofyr has quit. 23:07:52 th...that was... 23:07:52 fungot choco bill? 23:07:53 AnMaster: both of us go. enjoy. 23:07:53 coherent... 23:08:05 what the heck is a "choco bill" 23:08:20 That stuff is ~350 kilobytes; I took everything that appears in double quotes. 23:08:24 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:08:35 fizzie, not a lot of data then 23:08:36 And Choco Bill is a guy who runs a Chocobo farm. 23:08:56 Not a lot in an absolute sense, but it's quite a lot of text anyway. 23:08:57 fizzie, is it possible to play this game on an emulator under linux? 23:09:03 just wondering 23:09:09 Well, yes, epsxe has a Linux port. 23:09:38 Although it's closed source; there was one open-source emulator too, which was less game-compatible, but it might still run FF7. 23:09:39 fizzie, 2D or 3D? 23:09:49 3D; all the Playstation-era games have been that. 23:09:59 FF7 was the first 3D one. 23:10:01 well not really my cup of tea then 23:10:22 I'd have done some of the 2D snes ones, but the newer games have far more text. 23:10:48 fizzie, well what about secret of mana or whatever that game was called, for snes iirc 23:10:52 I played that once iirc 23:12:16 Well, dunno. I've played it, of course, but... well, FF7 was the first one I found a complete-looking script for by googling. Not that I tried others either. 23:12:26 ah well 23:12:33 fizzie, what do you mean "of course"? 23:12:33 Planescape: Torment would have a lot of text, at least. :p 23:12:48 I hardly played any such games apart from super mario and zelda 23:13:18 really games are quite boring, with the exception of nethack and other rouge likes 23:13:25 like* 23:13:26 As far as console RPGs are considered, that one's quite famous. 23:13:59 (such in games above referring to "console games" 23:15:53 FF6 (the last SNES one, probably the largest too) seems to have a script <150K in length even with all the ascii decorations the gamefaqs version has. 23:16:01 * AnMaster checks games he played last two month: engima, kpat, kmines, simutrans, wesnoth, freeciv 23:16:06 Not a lot of material there. 23:16:10 I don't count flightgear as a game, it is a simulator 23:16:20 I've played a bit of gplanarity, but not very much else. 23:16:32 $ eix gplanarity 23:16:32 No matches found. 23:16:33 = 23:16:34 ? 23:16:45 sounded like gnome stuff 23:16:49 It's sort of a port of http://www.planarity.net/ 23:16:59 Gives you a graph, you need to move nodes so that the graph is planar. 23:17:23 It makes zero sense whatsoever, but... well, actually I can't even explain why it's fun. I'm not even sure whether it *is*. 23:17:48 There's some scoring involved (related to speed and such), but that's mostly coincidental. 23:17:57 It's not a very game-like game. 23:18:14 heh ok 23:18:31 well nethack I played of course too 23:18:44 I haven't touched nethack in months. 23:18:54 fungot: Do you play any games? 23:18:54 fizzie: did sephiroth... 23:19:01 fizzie, ascended? 23:19:09 sephiroth? 23:19:45 A character in FF7. One of the main antagonists. Not well known for any game-playing. 23:19:59 ah 23:20:18 fizzie, game music in this ff thing? 23:20:23 (except ff == firefox for me) 23:20:52 fizzie, I think game music is utterly important. At least Zelda OOT level needed 23:21:02 And nope, the farthest I've done nethack is to get to the bottom of Gehennom a couple of times. Haven't really played it much; I did lurk in rec.games.roguelike.nethack some time, though. 23:21:32 which is one major reason I love wesnoth, extremely good game music 23:21:41 And I personally like the music, yes. Most soundtracks by Nobuo Uematsu. 23:22:12 My brains made no connection on that name 23:22:23 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:22:31 -!- puzzlet has joined. 23:22:37 Well, Final Fantasy is what he's mostly known for. 23:22:40 fizzie, Finnish or Japanese is my guess 23:22:44 ;P 23:22:45 Japanese. 23:22:50 heh ok 23:22:59 Finnish names rarely involve a 'b'. 23:23:05 ah ok 23:25:55 The series is somewhat famous for the music, too, I think. Of course "famous" is a relative term here. 23:26:25 fungot: So I assume your comment was a "no", then? 23:26:26 fizzie: it's 100 gil a night. would i know you were... 23:30:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:31:10 -!- M0ny has quit ("Hum... Hum..."). 23:40:52 heh 23:41:39 I assume that was about the cost of spending a night in an inn. 23:41:45 -!- mbishop has joined. 23:45:52 wtf 23:46:18 fizzie, do you have any idea of any tool that could help figuring out why mail isn't *delivered* to a specific domain 23:46:29 I don't even get any error back 23:46:31 nothing in logs 23:46:34 just.... void 23:48:18 AnMaster: telnet to the server 23:48:19 There's not much you can do if you're not responsible for the mail server of the target domain. If you have a connection where you can talk to the SMTP port of any host, you could check the MX records, connect to the mail server with telnet, and try sending that mail. 23:48:20 smtp is as simple as http 23:49:07 fizzie, I'm responsible for mail at target 23:49:08 yes 23:49:18 but I think the issue may be due to mx records and subdomains 23:49:40 since delivering to foo@bar.org works but not foo@quux.bar.org 23:49:47 and setup seems correct 23:49:52 it works on the server itself 23:51:18 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:53:27 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:57:41 I wonder if they bias the randomiser to ones that haven't been rated much yet 23:58:20 actually _no_ bias would work rather better, given that the daily comics archive starts around the big bang or so 23:58:40 virtually no chance of collisions 23:58:56 but i think the actual randomizer is biased to closer dates 2008-10-27: 00:00:02 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 00:00:25 however the "best bakes" page has three different listings, the last of which are definitely biased to things that are rated only a few times 00:00:36 *is 00:01:32 the listings and voting system are essential to actually getting the better comics known 00:05:32 lost game 00:08:06 there's no game 00:09:24 oh and also i don't think the Comic Irregulars have revealed anything much about how the mezzacotta comic generation works (barring that i haven't read the forum for today yet) 00:10:30 but there is plenty of speculation on the forum of course 00:16:14 hm 00:16:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | sometimes i spend hours hunting some bug. 00:16:44 optbot is a hard working programmer 00:16:45 oerjan: I consider it modern art. 00:16:51 ah 00:16:59 XD 00:18:14 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 00:18:58 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:21:09 -!- moozilla has joined. 00:26:34 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1995-08-22 <- this actually happened when i was born 00:26:42 i am the one on the right 00:31:22 * oerjan was confused there for a moment 00:31:36 i see your intelligence showed early 00:32:29 I love my facial expression in the last comic 00:33:29 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1748-04-04 <<< oh my god, i wonder how long it's been since i laughed this hard at a comic 00:33:54 oerjan: http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?year=2001&epoch=ad&month=09&day=11 The sorrows of 9/11 apparently break the algorithm. 00:34:08 oklocod: LOL 00:34:26 i've checked 9/11 before i don't recall it being anything special 00:34:38 did you find it funny, or am i just too tired? 00:34:48 oerjan: "This randomly generated comic is just not working today." 00:34:49 oklocod: hilarious 00:34:52 the facial expressions XD 00:34:52 the expression in the last square was simply priceless 00:34:54 yeah :D 00:35:07 cuz he looks so damn calm first 00:35:11 oklocod: i voted it 100% before you pasted it 00:35:12 and then realizes 00:35:16 iirc 00:35:29 okay i have high hopes for #2 too 00:35:47 well i didn't laugh, that just *made sense*. 00:35:54 it 00:36:19 these things are usually only funny in that they make very little sense 00:36:31 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-5679392-11-17 00:36:32 LOL 00:37:00 i think that is from the hall of fame 00:37:09 one of the oldest 00:37:19 still funny :P 00:37:47 but i think quality has gone up, obviously because of more people visiting 00:38:04 (on the selected comics) 00:38:19 um 00:38:21 the comics don't change 00:38:22 i think 00:38:32 no but the selections do 00:38:47 the more people visit, the more comics will compete for the selected listings 00:39:10 ah 00:39:10 and so they should become better 00:39:54 i don't think the underlying comics algorithms have changed either 00:40:20 but it's hard to be sure when they are not revealing anything 00:40:25 oklocod: http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=612-07-27 00:40:33 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1729-04-03 xD 00:40:40 i love these. 00:40:43 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=612-07-27 00:40:47 best one 00:41:06 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=341-07-05 00:41:08 also hilarious 00:41:25 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1995-06-02 00:42:06 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1920-08-20 00:42:06 LOL 00:43:10 * oerjan guesses ehird has checked out the forum discussion on silent panels 00:43:22 just finished reading the big thread 00:43:28 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-1286-10-03 <<< xD 00:43:37 okay i laugh at this more than xkcd. 00:44:04 well i guess it's partly because i'm tired and i opened a laugh-gate or something 00:44:19 don't forget to vote 00:44:22 oh 00:44:25 perhaps i could. 00:44:48 but really i think it's the faces 00:44:53 they're so live 00:44:57 but yes this is better than xkcd 00:45:48 warning: don't include your vote in pasted links 00:46:24 oh, you can do that? 00:46:34 oerjan: they should really use POST. 00:46:47 &vote=2 00:46:49 ah. 00:46:51 ehird: there are some bugs like that 00:47:52 the TODO list is growing quickly, and DMM says it won't be handled speedily 00:48:10 http://www.mezzacotta.net/singles/collapse_a_wavefunction.php 00:48:20 why is the unbaked cake eaten, and not the fully baked one? 00:48:45 dunno :P 00:48:46 oklocod: hm a conundrum 00:50:51 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1457-07-02 :D 00:51:11 oerjan: oklocod 00:51:12 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1995-08-22 00:51:14 it CHANGED 00:51:17 the lines are different 00:51:18 and the eyes 00:52:07 LOL 00:52:08 LOL 00:52:08 LOL 00:52:09 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?year=9999999&epoch=bc&month=01&day=01 00:52:56 changed? 00:53:29 oklocod: my birthday comic, just a bit 00:53:29 the eyes 00:53:31 and the mouthes 00:53:31 anyway 00:53:32 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-600000-11-05 00:53:57 that's weird 00:54:28 well it's cached after it has been visited once, maybe that changes something 00:54:38 nahh 00:54:42 cause i refreshed after that 00:54:52 but yeah 00:54:53 the eyes 00:54:54 or maybe they *shiver* changed the algorithm 00:54:54 and those ears 00:54:56 and the mouthes 00:55:00 oerjan: probably :( 00:55:56 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-1875-01-18 00:55:57 eliza 00:58:15 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-2137-11-25 <<< okay the cycle time isn't *that* long 00:58:27 i mean 00:58:33 well you prolly know what i mean. 01:00:25 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?year=1992&epoch=ad&month=03&day=18 01:00:56 you mean some of the lines repeat frequently 01:01:11 ais523: http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1005-03-16 01:01:14 oerjan: something like that. 01:01:21 exactly that, to be exact 01:01:46 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive_new.php?date=888-01-06 01:01:53 there are obviously several corpuses being used 01:02:02 some may be bigger than others 01:02:27 what i don't get is all thet parentheses 01:02:34 why don't they remove those 01:02:34 CHESS IS TRADITIONAL is from the IWC comic 01:02:40 iwc? 01:02:47 Irregular Webcomic 01:03:05 oh 01:03:09 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=642-04-16 01:03:10 i might've gotten IW 01:03:37 it was said by one of the Deaths when someone, i think Kyros got a chance to challenge him 01:03:43 hmm, that may be a lie, because i'm not sure i knew whether webcomic is written as one word... 01:03:55 guess i'm just surprised i didn't get it. 01:04:02 http://syndicated.livejournal.com/mezzahalloffame/ an almost-daily webcomic version lynched from the halls of fame 01:04:52 that comic is as weird as jerkcity 01:05:28 mbishop: i think that says more about jerkcity than mezzacotta 01:08:42 bye 01:17:11 lguhlughulghulgulgulgulgulghuglghuh 01:19:10 HELP, LAMENT IS DROWNING 01:32:10 http://i30.tinypic.com/2qdxv7r.jpg 01:32:12 guys 01:32:14 hot? 01:32:17 -!- Asztal has joined. 01:33:11 i'd do her 01:33:14 wait... it's a dude! 01:33:24 well it was a her 01:33:27 but not anymore 01:33:33 still has a vagina but 01:33:33 a poor dude, apparently 01:33:39 why poor? 01:33:55 a fan in the window and a chair that's not really a chair? 01:33:56 oh, if he has a vagina then it's all good 01:34:02 also sparce furniture 01:34:19 oh, its not his place. its his friends living room. 01:34:22 if he were rich he'd have fixed that vagina, obviously. 01:34:31 good point 01:34:35 lament: so you dont care if its a guy, so long as theres a vagins? 01:35:11 lament is _so_ object-oriented 01:35:18 no, i'm functional 01:35:24 its an interesting kind of bisexuality. 01:35:28 this is referential transparency we're talking about 01:35:34 ic 01:35:44 interesting in the same way that my homosexuality is interesting even tho i'd fuck a guy who has a vagina. 01:36:22 i'm guessing he's into women though? 01:36:30 who? this guy? 01:36:33 no lol 01:36:33 yeah 01:36:35 hes very very gay 01:36:41 woman turned homosexual? 01:36:47 what a waste! 01:37:02 oh thats nothing 01:37:13 i know a transguy (that is, female-to-male) 01:37:17 who's into cross dressing. 01:37:24 as a female. because hes a guy. 01:37:28 who just happens to have a vagina. 01:37:30 i'm sure it's genetic 01:37:38 or otherwise not a lifestyle choice 01:37:40 what, having a vagina? 01:37:52 vaginas ARENT a lifestyle choice 01:37:53 this is true 01:38:13 * oerjan recalls from somewhere about a guy who changed into a lesbian harley biker, or something like that 01:38:38 (probably biked before) 01:39:16 indeed 01:39:22 its not all that complicated really 01:39:31 gender is in the mind. 01:39:38 sexuality is in the mind. 01:39:44 cocks and vaginas are not. 01:39:52 well they could be in the mind 01:39:56 but that's probably illegal 01:39:57 and all three are separable 01:40:09 mbishop: cocks cant be in the mind 01:40:12 they can be in the brain 01:40:21 but brain != mind. atleast not technically 01:40:28 psygnisfive: well wait until we develop suitable psi powers 01:40:40 but it still wouldnt put a cock inside a mind 01:41:08 impregnation through telekinesis 01:41:10 mind is not a physical thing, its an organizational structure and pattern 01:41:50 well that's one theory. science doesn't really know. 01:42:03 ofcourse we know 01:42:08 people like nagel dont 01:42:12 nagels a twat, too. 01:42:16 who is nagel 01:42:31 a philosopher 01:42:37 who cant fucking reason 01:42:50 he uses lots of nonsequiturs 01:43:00 tht ultimately amount to "i cant imagine it, so its impossible!" 01:43:35 now really. the fact that _he_ doesn't know in no way implies that science does 01:44:05 since science is still incapable of physically reading thoughts directly from brain structure, it doesn't. 01:44:13 no, but i just like insulting nagel 01:44:47 i dont think theres anything TO know, to be honest 01:44:52 i mean 01:45:03 its obvious that were material beings 01:45:09 there is no soul, as far as we can tell 01:45:14 oerjan: except that it can... 01:45:27 oerjan: not to any great degree of precision, but lots of thought can be accessed 01:45:44 so what the nature of brain/mind is doesnt matter THAT much since we know it must be necessarily turing-equivalent 01:46:02 oerjan: oh sorry, from *structure* 01:46:12 and the functionalist model looks very similar to the brains behavior, to me 01:46:13 oerjan: you're right 01:46:16 absttractly 01:46:28 oerjan: but I'd argue that that's just a limit of our modelling power 01:46:57 oerjan: our linear computers take a long time to simulate that many neurons, and real brains take years-to-decades to develop 01:47:01 plus, thoughts arent structure 01:47:14 so ofcourse we cant read thoughts by looking at structure 01:47:44 psygnisfive: they come from structure plus stimulus though 01:47:54 psygnisfive: and granted, science isn't able to really model that 01:48:02 yes but the structure is mechanism + stored data 01:48:11 (because it's too much for any digital computer!) 01:48:12 thoughts are flows of information 01:49:05 a clear example of why structure is not thought: brain dead people have no structural differences, but they lack the information flow 01:49:30 structure was the wrong word 01:49:43 maybe 01:50:06 brain observation 01:50:14 what 01:50:15 ? 01:50:27 would be better 01:50:33 well regardless 01:50:57 modern science couldn't do similar from looking at a microchip. atleast, not in a reasonable amount of time. 01:51:12 and the brain is much larger than a microchip and doesn't operate on the same principles of computation 01:54:43 actually 01:54:52 i find it easier to imagine a brain-as-TM-simulator 01:54:58 when it does behave in those fashions 01:55:43 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:08:43 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:26:33 I've been thwarted by shoes again >_< 02:28:03 they're probably jealous of the hats 02:29:06 fucking hats 02:29:20 GregorR: the only solution is that you register choosemyshoes.com 02:29:38 Very, very bad idea :P 02:29:51 you think so? XD 02:30:13 I spend four hours today looking for shoes I can wear. 02:30:20 As it turns out, they don't sell leather-free shoes in Indiana. 02:30:44 I suddenly have a feeling GregorR is vegan. 02:30:50 I'm not. 02:30:55 I'm allergic to leather. 02:31:01 Which sucks arse. 02:32:52 ah 02:34:33 (More accurately, I'm allergic to chromium, which is used to tan most leather, and also process synthetic leather so I can't wear that either yee haw) 02:39:22 But then, I don't think I'd trade my effing weird allergy for the normal array of annoying allergies. 02:39:52 Having to pay $150 for shoes isn't as bad as sneezing a billion times a day for six months per year :P 02:40:03 indeed 02:41:56 I wouldn't like to sneeze at 11.6 kHz either. 02:44:44 * Dewi laughs. 02:49:35 Hmm, what would that sound like... 02:50:16 Probably just an 11.6 kHz sine, since it would be periodic at 11.6 kHz and you wouldn't really be able to hear the upper harmonics. 03:20:10 so how exactly is the dialgoue generated 03:20:26 comex: in what? 03:20:38 mezzacotta 03:20:45 they have not revealed it 03:21:26 what you can say is that it is based on several sources, such as an eliza-like program and their own webcomics 03:22:02 at least some characters depend on what was said previously 03:23:12 see the forum for what has been discussed 03:24:35 s/their own webcomics/their other webcomics/ 03:25:27 there are also some public-domain books in there, i think the bible for one 03:34:13 -!- Corun__ has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 04:02:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:32:08 -!- rodgort has quit ("Coyote finally caught me"). 04:32:21 -!- rodgort has joined. 05:10:35 xkcd every day this week! 05:12:03 Anybody who considers themselves good at determining whether colors go together, please click wildly at http://home.codu.org/colormatch/ 05:13:02 the first two were almost identical. i guess that means they do. 05:13:08 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:13:35 black goes with anything, doesn't it >:D 05:13:43 It's supposed to :P 05:13:54 I'm generating some input data to attempt to make a neural net with. 05:14:01 I doubt it'll work well, because I think it's very subjective. 05:14:07 But it's possible that there are some humanish themes. 05:14:08 although to be honest i didn't like the other (purplish) color much 05:23:44 did you just switch the layout or was it part of the original process? 05:24:02 (in any case it seemed to be easier with plaids) 05:25:07 I just switched it on somebody else's recommendation. 05:26:49 * oerjan thinks his eyes are starting to have some illusion effect, so he'll stop 05:35:44 http://www.heyokay.com/wp-content/images/computer programming.jpg 05:36:42 i want a computer like that 05:36:47 Hahaha 06:14:10 -!- metazilla has joined. 06:14:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:14:18 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 06:16:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and constants = first letter uppercase (because FOO, etc). 06:32:18 the typography work on those labels sucks 07:13:12 -!- Judofyr has joined. 07:21:46 -!- Judofyr has quit. 07:23:43 -!- Judofyr has joined. 07:38:27 -!- Judofyr has quit. 07:40:32 OK, wtf. 07:40:39 There's no way that color preference is deterministic. 07:40:52 Clearly I have too little data. 07:43:01 how many votes did you get? 07:44:13 1291 07:44:30 And cancel the last three lines, my previous result seems to have been a bug (although I'm not sure what bug >_> ) 07:44:41 heck i'm not even sure _my_ preferences were deterministic 07:44:53 Could it be a bug found between keyboard and chair? 07:45:06 They all are :P 07:45:13 Especially when your name is Gregor. 07:45:18 (Hyper-obscure reference++) 07:45:58 Heh 07:47:02 ah 07:47:20 * oerjan squashes a dung beetle 07:48:40 * Jiminy_Cricket hopes oerjan doesn't construe crickets to be dung beetles. 07:48:48 not at all 07:48:53 only Gregors 07:48:55 Phew 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:14:26 Just hit 70% legitimately 8-D 08:14:37 I doubt you can do much better than 70%. 08:32:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 08:47:01 70% what? 09:20:15 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 10:27:21 -!- M0ny has joined. 10:28:22 plop 10:30:21 hi M0ny 10:31:01 11:32:51 fungot: Plop, goes the BONUS BALL. 10:31:02 11:32:51 fizzie: whoooooooa!! 10:31:37 So excitable. 10:39:20 fizzie: what database is fungot using at the moment? 10:39:21 ais523: official records state sephiroth is traveling the world like everyone's been saying'... 10:39:45 The script for the Playstation RPG Final Fantasy VII. 10:41:35 Were you one of those logreading people? Tried out 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics, and Agora rules, yesterday. Both of those weren't too bad. 10:47:23 I don't exactly logread 10:47:32 but my bouncer records all the messages while I'm not here 10:47:35 then replays them when I join 10:47:44 Oh, right, there was that trick. 10:47:45 so it's like I've been here all the time, and I read scrollback rather than logreading 10:48:11 Well, logreading, scrollback-reading; same thing. 10:48:23 yes 10:48:52 fungot: Quote an Agora rule, please? 10:48:52 fizzie: any player can flip eir posture to any non-standing value by announcement. if e disqualifies the judge, to all players 10:49:07 the first sentence is verbatim from the Agoran rules 10:49:10 the second clearly isn't 10:49:53 Shortening the context gives more... "inspired" output. That FF7 thing had one word less context than this. 10:50:13 fungot: Why you have to always quote stuff verbatim? That's not fun at all! 10:50:13 fizzie: described elsewhere, and provides a tally of the voters' valid ballots on the various options. 10:50:20 also verbatim 10:50:27 Yes, it sounded suspiciously sensible. 10:50:30 oh dear, I seem to have memorised far too much of the Agoran ruleset... 10:50:34 fungot: another? 10:50:34 ais523: " impossible" is defined here to mean overwhelmingly psychotic behavior, a complete lack of interest in the game, each player's score is set to eir bvlop. 10:50:41 ok, that's more interesting 10:51:03 btw, setting score to bvlop is not a sensible operation at all, and wouldn't have been even when bvlop was defined 10:51:57 fungot: Can you generate more original stuff if you have a shorter context, like now? 10:51:57 fizzie: the stuck switches on an immune player which made the announcement that a judge 10:52:25 It's just that the coherence level decreases rapidly if I shorten the context. 10:52:41 I don't know what a bvlop is. 11:02:41 -!- Corun__ has joined. 11:09:03 -!- moozilla has joined. 11:20:02 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 11:20:04 -!- megatron has joined. 11:20:25 -!- moozilla has joined. 11:40:10 -!- metazilla has quit (Connection timed out). 11:41:09 -!- Corun__ has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 12:16:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Jeeze. . . If you're going tu use C syntax, at least be willing to use the power of pointers.. 12:31:34 fizzie: it isn't any more, but it used to be base voting limit on ordinary proposals 12:32:02 which was 4 if you were a real person, and 0 otherwise, say if you were a computer program or consortium of people 12:32:17 fungot: more Agoran inspiration? You should meet Bayes. 12:32:17 ais523: what's happening? i think i... what! 12:32:35 fungot: that sounded pretty unusal for you... 12:32:36 ais523: oh, and once more to turn over a stone or two to see it? will you get involved...' blah, blah... 12:32:54 fungot: has your data source changed again? 12:33:20 ais523: like you wouldn't be standing here now. 12:33:20 anyway, time to go for a while, I'll be back soon, fungot 12:33:20 ais523: if i did go to that town across the river...... that's so rude... 12:35:09 Yes, that was fungot impersonating that game again. Maybe I should make it randomly pick from the available sources. 12:35:09 fizzie: then it really you, cloud? 12:35:23 fungot: No, I'm not Cloud. You must be confused. 12:35:23 fizzie: remember it! why now... no. i don't know what i'm made of! ......urk! 12:35:51 fungot: You're made of some Funge-98 code. Hope this helps. 12:35:51 fizzie: nothing. and, where is everybody? if you want! who do they mean.... don't leave me. something's wrong. 12:36:09 fungot: Calm down, everything's all right. 12:36:09 fizzie: i thought i would kick their butts. 13:15:21 :) 13:15:26 fungot is so delighting 13:15:26 oklocod: wait a minute, cloud! what can he do for ya......... i know this's kinda outta the blue, but...... that name? 13:15:37 not cloud 13:15:39 *cod* 13:15:45 oklocloud. 13:15:51 also i love this current one 13:16:00 it's like it's high 13:16:23 It might be partially because there's also the shorter context thing, the game script was so short. 13:16:29 fungot: Have you been inhaling things again? 13:16:30 fizzie: now, i can read sheet music for that! but if you're on a big splash. hold onto your drawers and don't get so caught up in these reports. 13:16:52 I didn't know bots can get high by reading sheet music. 13:16:57 random pick from sources would be interesting 13:17:10 hmm... what would happen if you supplied fungot with fungot data 13:17:10 ais523: did you... jealous? hmm? you... did you say something, and mr. president... i've never seen your faces ' round here before. goin' after me? 13:17:13 and used a really short chain? 13:17:20 probably it hasn't generated enough to be worth chaining from 13:18:11 okokokokokoko 13:18:15 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol. 13:18:36 hmm... I saw your oko Underload program in scrollback 13:18:43 that inspires me to try it for myself, without looking at yours 13:19:09 +ul (o)(~:S(ko)*( )S~:^):^ 13:19:10 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output! 13:19:18 wow, right first try, not bad 13:19:32 I need to add that output limitation thing to fungot. 13:19:32 fizzie: a lot easier. and believe in cloud...... it is not necessary to use that sailor suit. he is! 13:19:44 fizzie: don't you have the ... 13:19:44 ^ul (o)(~:S(ko)*( )S~:^):^ 13:19:46 -!- fungot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:19:53 ah, not in the Underload program 13:19:57 Not there, no. 13:20:10 ais523: that was oerjan's 13:20:14 thutubot never breaks output in the middle of an S command 13:20:16 maybe it ought to 13:20:18 oklopol: ah, ok 13:20:20 Hey, that was pretty curious. 13:20:23 RAW >>> :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (o)(~:S(ko)*( )S~:^):^ <<< 13:20:27 *** glibc detected *** ./cfunge: double free or corruption (!prev): 0x080dbee0 *** 13:20:44 so in other words, my Underload oko program made fungot crash cfunge? 13:20:49 AnMaster needs to know about this 13:20:53 +ul (o)(~:S(ko)*( )S~:^):^ 13:20:54 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output! 13:20:55 I wonder how easy it is to reproduce? 13:21:01 okay that was easy 13:21:08 hmm 13:21:13 okay that's exactly what you had 13:21:21 ah, did you come up with it independently? 13:21:24 i was kinda hoping it would have at least some difference. 13:21:25 yes 13:21:30 great Underload programmers think alike, obviously 13:21:30 i just wrote it 13:21:33 hehe 13:21:44 there are many steps you could do in different order 13:21:54 or are there 13:21:56 let's see 13:21:57 ais523: It seems to be very easy to reproduce, as it crashes whenever I input that program. 13:22:00 the ( )S could go anywhere after the first S and before the first ^ 13:22:20 -!- fungot has joined. 13:22:29 (It's not fixed, so don't bother testing.) 13:22:32 hmm... I suppose it would be neater to do it like this: 13:22:49 +ul (o )(~:S(ok)~*~:^):^ 13:22:49 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output! 13:22:55 is that shorter, I wonder? 13:23:00 +ul (o )(~:S(ok)~*S~:^):^ 13:23:01 o oko ...: out of stack! 13:23:04 hmm 13:23:06 oh 13:23:14 lol, i'm probably making the exact same change as you 13:23:20 you have a stray S in your program 13:23:22 keeping (o ) on stack and adding ok 13:23:23 but otherwise it's the same 13:23:24 's 13:23:26 yeah 13:23:53 oh, well yeah i just copypasted and changed the beginning 13:24:00 +ul (o )(~:S(ok)~*~:^):^ 13:24:01 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output! 13:24:03 yarr 13:24:11 that's probably as short as it gets 13:24:42 a finite oko would be even shorter, I think 13:24:56 (o )(:S(ok)~*):*:*:*^ 13:25:00 +ul (o )(:S(ok)~*):*:*:*^ 13:25:00 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko 13:25:03 +ul (o )(:S(ok)~*):*:*:*;*^ 13:25:07 +ul (o )(:S(ok)~*):*:*:*:*^ 13:25:07 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output! 13:25:08 +ul (o)S( o)(~(ko)*:S~:^):^ 13:25:09 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output! 13:25:16 +ul (o)S( o)(~(ko)*:S~:^):^ 13:25:17 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output! 13:25:27 heh, i'm getting pretty fluent at this too 13:25:30 +ul (o )(:S(ok)~*):*::**:*^ 13:25:30 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko 13:25:46 Challenge: given a positive integer, find the shortest way to write it in Underload 13:26:55 well what's the integer? 13:27:10 and just the number of x's to write, or in base something? 13:27:20 Underload constants are probably just as tricky, or more so, to work out than Brainfuck constants 13:27:24 :* ::** :*:* ::*:** are the first 5, I suspect 13:27:26 +ul (:*)(x)~^S 13:27:26 xx 13:27:30 hmm... why didn't that work? 13:27:36 umm 13:27:38 well, not so much of an individual program 13:27:39 because that's 2? 13:27:40 but a general task, like [[e:Brainfuck constants]] 13:27:42 but a general task, like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants 13:27:44 :* is 2, yes 13:27:58 ^bf +++++++++++[>++++++++++>+++<<-]>+.>-.[[<]>[-<+<+<+>>>]<----<<[->>>+<<<]>[.>]<] 13:27:58 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko ... 13:28:01 :* ::** :::*** ::::**** works for all integers 13:28:06 but it could be shorter for most of them 13:28:16 I'm wondering what the general rule is to find the shortest program to produce a given integer 13:28:23 err 13:28:25 probably it's NP-hard or something, tbh 13:28:26 are you joking? 13:28:32 it's not np-hard. 13:28:44 well, 4 is :::***, but it's also :*:* which is shorter 13:29:23 is this let-your-nephew-irc-with-your-nick week, first oerjan then you, it's impossible to solve that :D 13:29:28 likewise the shortest way to write 5 is ::*:**, and 6 is probably :*::** 13:29:34 oklopol: no, it can clearly be brute-forced 13:29:40 no it can't 13:29:44 oh, ofc 13:29:50 when ais comes back, ask him about semidecidability 13:29:55 because some of the programs you try might not terminate 13:29:58 yes 13:30:00 sorry, not thinking straight there 13:30:03 hehe 13:30:14 probably there's general rule for programs made of : and * 13:30:23 *there's a general rule 13:30:40 probably for any non tc subset 13:30:50 hmm... I wonder what the first integer for which the shortest constant is mathematically undecidable is, probably it's pretty high 13:31:13 that can't be solved either, you can only solve a lower bound 13:31:16 and any non-TC subset whose halting problem is solvable, clearly it could be brute-forced 13:31:25 ah yes, undecidable undecidability 13:31:28 I can still wonder, though 13:31:35 yeah, sure 13:31:44 now, let's try 79 13:32:06 +ul (xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)S 13:32:07 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 13:32:22 well 13:32:24 well, clearly that's beatable 13:32:30 yes, sure 13:32:33 AnMaster needs to know about this <-- ? 13:32:35 but that wasn't even the number 13:32:43 how to reproduce it 13:32:46 i mainly wanted to see how long 79 is :P 13:32:47 and what about backtrace? 13:33:00 +ul ::::::*:**::*:**:******(x)~^S 13:33:00 ...: out of stack! 13:33:10 +ul (::::::*:**::*:**:******)(x)~^S 13:33:11 ...S out of stack! 13:33:22 ugh, must be a typo there somewhere... 13:33:26 AnMaster: its' on fizzie's computer, not mine 13:33:30 ok 13:33:33 fizzie, details? 13:33:49 +ul (::::::*:**::*:**::******)(x)~^S 13:33:49 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 13:33:55 I can participate in going after it later. But I guess I could take a quick look under gdb right now. 13:34:15 well I'm leaving for the rest of the day within maybe 10 minutes 13:34:27 ah, slightly early bye then 13:34:55 Well, later, then. 13:34:57 so 1) how to reproduce 2) any backtrace (with -g or -ggdb3 and hopefully -O0) 13:35:10 +ul ((:*):*:*:*:*)(x)~^S 13:35:10 :*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:* 13:35:12 ais523: was that 79? 13:35:12 fizzie, need to go out and buy new clothes and such 13:35:16 ugh, hit typo by mistake 13:35:21 oklopol: was meant to be, I haven't counted though 13:35:28 (5*5*3)+4 13:35:39 yeah it is 13:36:00 I think it's probably possible to get it shorter, though 13:36:10 let me try 64, first 13:36:19 +ul (:*:*:*:*:*:*)(x)~^S 13:36:19 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 13:36:26 is it written as 2*2*2*2*2*2 13:36:32 I'm wondering if 2^6 would be shorter 13:36:44 +ul (:*)(:*::**)^(x)~^S 13:36:45 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 13:37:12 one char shorter, I think 13:37:30 and obviously the savings go up as you go to larger powers of 2 13:37:38 ah, and two chars shorter still: 13:37:44 +ul (:*):*::**(x)~^S 13:37:44 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 13:38:18 I wonder if 79 can be written shorter using that sort of trick? 13:39:31 +ul (::*::**:::***~::::::*******)(x)~^S [2, 3, 4]+7 13:39:31 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 13:39:34 +ul (::*::**:::***~::::::*******)(x)~^S 13:39:35 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 13:39:35 heh 13:39:37 hmph 13:39:40 oh, lol 13:39:41 ... 13:39:43 wait a sex 13:40:08 this is what you get for letting the computer do the thinking 13:40:13 I think thutubot just stops if it hits an unrecognised character, that makes sense given the way it's programmed 13:40:17 and not really thinking when asking it 13:40:52 nothing wrong with that as long as you don't trust the answer to have answered the question you were trying to ask 13:40:59 +ul (::*(::**)(:*)^:*:*~::::::*******)(x)~^S 13:40:59 ::**::**::**::**::**::**::**::**xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 13:41:02 ... 13:41:05 heh, that's wrong... 13:41:17 +ul (::*(::**)(:*)^^:*:*~::::::*******)(x)~^S 13:41:18 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 13:41:19 Well, it's the free_nogc() in STRN.c:122 that's hitting the glibc double-free thing. Will look at the details later. 13:41:20 ... 13:41:27 okay i give up for now. 13:41:36 mainly because i have to go -> 13:41:42 bye 13:41:54 hm 13:41:55 one thing 13:41:59 ^ul (o)(~:S(ko)*( )S~:^):^ 13:42:00 -!- fungot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:42:05 ah reproducible 13:42:08 Yes. 13:42:16 I think I said so, too. 13:42:17 fizzie, well what is the link the the same version of the source 13:42:21 so I can test it locally later 13:42:25 hmm... where are the links for STRN? 13:42:32 I mean, the definition 13:42:36 ais523, STRN is RC/Funge one 13:42:46 ah, ok 13:42:49 I'm currently testing whether it works on the stand-alone Underload interp, because that's a lot smaller piece of code. 13:42:53 where's the link to those fingerprints? 13:43:04 fizzie, still I don't think cfunge should crash 13:43:14 so even if it is a bug in your program I want to debug this 13:43:34 fis@eris:~/src/bef$ echo '(o)(~:S(ko)*( )S~:^):^' | ~/inst/cfunge/cfunge/build/cfunge underload.b98 > /dev/null 13:43:38 *** glibc detected *** /home/fis/inst/cfunge/cfunge/build/cfunge: double free or corruptio 13:43:50 fizzie, well got a link to that underload.b98 ? 13:43:51 :) 13:43:58 And underload.b98 is at http://zem.fi/~fis/underload.b98 13:44:00 ais523, 0x5354524e STRN http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html 13:44:13 Easier to run than fungot, no need to use netcat to pretend to be an IRC server or anything. 13:44:45 fizzie, doesn't crash here, just runs for ages 13:44:58 It does run for quite a long time before crashing, here. 13:44:58 how long does it take to crash? 13:45:04 ah now it crashed 13:45:18 5-6 seconds here. 13:45:45 more than 15 here 13:46:01 #5 0x000000000041ab94 in finger_STRN_get (ip=0x15d20c8) at /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/fingerprints/STRN/STRN.c:122 13:46:01 122 free_nogc(s); 13:46:02 maybe an infinite loop's filling up memory 13:46:02 hm 13:46:05 It's might also be using quite a lot of memory, since it keeps growing that string. 13:46:06 until it overwrites something else? 13:46:18 I think valgrind is the right tool for this... 13:46:21 the program is an infiniloop, after all 13:46:30 anyway it crashes on a free 13:46:37 clearly a case for valgrind! 13:47:00 is valgrind Boehm-GC compatible? 13:47:33 "invalid write of size 1" in stringbuffer_finish (stringbuffer.c:99) (from finger_STRN_get (STRN.c:115)) here, but you can run it on your own of course. 13:47:36 ais523, no but that is optional 13:47:42 ah, ok 13:47:44 fizzie, ah yes I see it too 13:48:36 off by one error 13:49:10 * AnMaster debugs, stringbuffer being external code he didn't write himself (was taken from another gpled project I'm a developer on) 13:49:13 -!- fungot has joined. 13:49:24 wb fungot 13:49:24 ais523: it's the shinra for all of a sudden and where is everybody? that wasn't even a tough one. if we solve the puzzles, the fourth floor is this...... ha, ha 13:49:38 fungot: Ha, ha. 13:49:38 fizzie: huh? there ain't no difference from before!! 13:49:53 fungot: Yes, you certainly seem to be as strange as you've always been. 13:49:53 fizzie: wake up. bye, then that's it!! so let's get it.) is where i was... 13:51:21 SMEM: "All commands reflect on error with the error code on the stack:" <--- arrgghh 13:51:40 I don't think any other Funge commands push something when they reflect... 13:52:04 * AnMaster pushes a fix 13:52:21 seems I got delayed in leaving for other reasons 13:52:29 pushed a fix 13:53:32 was an off by one error in a call to make sure the buffer was large enough 13:56:19 fizzie, ais523 ^ 13:56:27 Yes, seems workingy. 13:56:35 ah, ok 13:56:37 ^raw QUIT :let's get you a brand-new cfunge to run on 13:56:38 -!- fungot has quit ("let's get you a brand-new cfunge to run on"). 13:56:43 Cfunge? 13:56:45 Eww. 13:57:02 * ehird installs rc/funge and grabs the fungot code so he isn't contaminated 13:57:14 cfunge - fast fixes on bugs! 13:57:16 ;P 13:58:39 What can I say -- it certainly works better than RC/Funge. 13:58:50 thanks 14:03:06 fizzie, didn't it crash on too long string? 14:03:07 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1488-06-05 14:03:08 rcfunge that is 14:04:12 fizzie, also the bug would only have been triggered on a string that was exactly a multiple of 256 chars long. So that is why I didn't notice it before 14:04:40 Yes, RC/Funge has fixed 1000-byte arrays for about all STRN operations. 14:05:02 Yes, RC/Funge is like that. :-P 14:05:27 right, however this bug could have affected other fingerprints, I think the "read line" one in FILE for example. 14:06:18 since it was in a generic "build string by appending at the end" "library". 14:06:37 -!- fungot has joined. 14:06:43 wb fungot 14:06:43 ais523: like you more than sephiroth's shadow? 14:06:55 ^ul (o)(~:S(ko)*( )S~:^):^ 14:06:57 Aww, he likes you. 14:07:01 * AnMaster waits 14:07:11 shouldn't it time out soon? 14:07:13 The program is still an infinite loop with very very long strings, so it might not work very well. 14:07:14 AnMaster: I suspect that you're filling up the memory of fizzie's computer 14:07:18 ah 14:07:23 Let's see what it's doing. 14:07:29 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokoko 14:07:32 ah 14:07:39 fizzie: did you just break it by hand? 14:07:49 ais523: No, it terminated by itself. 14:07:54 right 14:07:57 ah, it has a timeout? 14:08:01 ais523: There would be a "... out of time" at the end, but that got cut off. 14:08:13 +ul (o)(~:S(ko)*( )S~:^):^ 14:08:14 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output! 14:08:18 It runs something like 10000 Underload instructions before time-outing. 14:08:29 Would be better to have a too-much-output thing too, though. 14:08:32 probably that isn't enough for serious programs 14:08:37 I wonder what Thutubot's limit is? 14:08:43 Serious programs? There are some? 14:08:43 it's non-trivial to work out 14:08:47 well, no 14:08:52 ais523, didn't you code thutubot? 14:08:55 but that doesn't mean they couldn't be written in theory 14:09:06 AnMaster: yes, but the art of counting in Thutu is mostly based on black magic 14:09:13 oh right 14:09:28 so it would probably take me an hour or so with a calculator to figure out exactly what its timeout was 14:09:54 fizzie, where does that underload program store it's stack thing? 14:09:57 I have written serious programs in a Thutu wimpmode, but the wimpmode does arithmetic 14:09:59 or whatever you use 14:10:38 http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1398-07-19 14:11:10 AnMaster: It's there in Funge-space, Y=9, negative X values. (Because STRN has that fixed delta, it's easier to have the stack growing that way.) 14:11:54 fizzie, right. but why then is the funge stack so large according to valgrind at the end of it 14:12:03 oh wait it reads it into stack every now and then 14:12:06 the whole thing? 14:12:27 It shouldn't, but it might easily have some bugs that cause numbers to creep up in the Funge stack. 14:12:31 ^ul ((foobarbazquux)~:^):^ 14:12:32 ...too much stack! 14:12:44 There's a reasonably small stack limit there, too. 14:13:08 +ul ((foobarbazquux)~:^):^ 14:13:29 ...too much memory used! 14:13:33 fizzie, well it is just that I found it pointless to shrink the funge stack in cfunge, it is a struct with a pointer to a malloced/realloced array, a size value and a top-of-actual-stack value 14:13:34 ah, that took a while... 14:13:40 I set the memory limit high deliberately 14:13:45 so it doesn't shrink it ever, exceptions: t 14:13:47 AnMaster: Actually with the oko program, yes, it does the string concatenation in the Funge stack. 14:14:17 t will not copy more than needed of the stack to the new ip 14:14:22 fizzie, ah right 14:14:51 I think the implementation of Underload * reads both strings to Funge stack, then uses STRN A to concatenate them, and writes the result back. 14:15:14 Probably would be more efficient just to copy things around a bit in the Funge-space. 14:15:16 ouch 14:15:40 Or maybe not; at least the STRN 'G' pop-string loop is likely to be more efficient than a Funge-coded loop. 14:16:23 considering how I do A... I calloc a new buffer large enough to hold both strings, then strncat them to that buffer. heh, was quite some time ago I wrote that, could rewrite it in a better way I guess 14:17:05 (reallocing one string and appending to that would be better I bet 14:17:10 ) 14:17:18 (foo)(bar) is stored in the stack as "bar\0foo\0", so * in any case needs to do quite a lot of copying to arrive at "foobar\0". Still, I guess at least TOYS has some funge-space copy operation. 14:24:25 Yes, * is indeed a simple 91g9G N91g1++9G A 91g1+:91p9P (with some other crud to notice stack underflow in there). 14:30:37 fizzie, hum? 14:30:41 ah 14:31:02 fizzie: is that using TOYS? 14:31:09 STRN I think 14:31:12 if so, you need the fingerprint-switch code too 14:31:28 since it kind of makes sense in STRN 14:31:44 * AnMaster has rewritten A, now running fuzz tests on it to check that there are no errors 14:31:59 It's using STRN, yes. 14:34:26 fungot: Do you PLAY with your TOYS? 14:34:26 fizzie: you stupid little!? why? can't you just settled down and had a nice girlfriend. 14:34:48 fizzie, which fingerprints do you use in fungot? 14:34:48 AnMaster: all right, it's been a horrific battle. the receptionist. yeah well, good luck, cloud. will guarantee your livelihood once the reactor keeps drainin' up! 14:35:03 STRN, SOCK, FILE, FING I remember 14:35:03 is this still the penny arcade dataset? 14:35:15 ehird: Final Fantasy 7 script. 14:35:20 ah 14:35:42 I keep FING, STRN, SOCK and SCKE loaded all the time; then I use FILE here and there, TOYS for ^reload (the space-clearing part) and SUBR for ^code. 14:35:46 That's probably all. 14:38:05 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:44:19 fizzie: you have only ever said 3968 things in #esoteric 14:44:25 until optbot was set up 14:44:26 ehird: but i would need to try on paper 14:44:36 and until optbot was set up, only 58 questions 14:44:37 ehird: I know 14:45:21 afk now 14:50:56 My own logs list me 4040 comments made with the nick 'fizzie' on this channel before 2008-08-01. That's reasonably close; there's things like splits and such, and I might be counting something wrong too. 14:51:15 And 8802 lines in total, not counting this one. 14:51:25 Apparently I've been quite noisy lately. 14:51:52 yes, fungot's been driving traffic 14:51:52 ais523: he---y!! here i come, come, and my pay? don't gimme that!? who... who are you saying? 14:53:56 psht 14:54:01 I remember when optbot was the traffic-driver 14:54:01 ehird: Cannot allocate memory 14:54:04 and people conversed with HIM 14:54:19 Well, fungot's decidedly optbot-inspired. 14:54:19 fizzie: you can't fool me, liar! maybe we shouldn't stay in here now! ...oops! 14:54:19 fizzie: :) 14:55:40 And apparently wants out of the channel. Go figure. 15:36:00 71% :) 15:36:31 (For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, help me train a neural net to recognize whether colors go together by going to http://home.codu.org/colormatch/ ) 15:37:21 GregorR: what's the copyright status of your hat photos on choosemyhat.com? 15:37:59 ais523: Never thought about it ... ask permission before using, don't use for obscene purposes. 15:38:08 ah, ok 15:38:13 well, I'm not planning to for the moment 15:38:32 it was just that I was thinking about a programming project which might theoretically some time in the far future need photos of hats 15:38:36 and it reminded me of you 15:41:15 -!- Corun__ has joined. 15:43:20 -!- jix has joined. 15:47:51 My neural nets have sex now, btw. 15:48:18 (And being able to say that is the #1 reason to add sexual reproduction to a genetic algorithm) 15:48:24 heh 15:50:07 The sex system is already up to 68% :) 15:50:26 hmm, kinda intriguing, just read a chapter about minimax search for chess plus just a few really simple optimization rules i could easily have come up with myself; then "with alpha-beta search we get to about 10 ply, which results in an expert level of play" 15:50:35 (Due to skew in the input set 61% is free) 15:50:41 10 ply isn't an expert level of play 15:50:44 alpha-beta pruning is this trivial technique for pruning branches minimax will never consider 15:50:50 yes, I know it 15:50:59 I never got round to implementing it in my own chess program, though 15:51:08 but it's pretty trivial 15:51:24 how good would 10 ply be? 15:51:32 it depends on the evaluation function 15:51:37 if it's just evaluating material, rubbish 15:51:53 you'll survive most tactics, but can easily end up cornered strategically 15:52:01 the evaluation function here is simply counting the amount of pieces, possibly after doing singular extensions 15:52:07 err 15:52:13 counting plus weighing 15:52:30 I imagine it would fall to a strong aggressive attack, possibly one that throws away material 15:52:32 yeah, just evaluating material 15:52:42 or possibly a positional opening trap 15:53:04 well with singular extensions it becomes at least a bit harder to trap it 15:53:14 don't know how hard, i'm not actually that good at chess. 15:54:03 but this is AIAMA, i hear it's considered quite a good book, so i believe what it says. 15:54:18 AIAMA is good, yes 15:54:23 Minimax with alpha-beta is what *everyone* (something like 25 out of 30) did for the AI course project-work, which I had to grade. 15:54:26 despite me having not read it 15:54:30 heh 15:54:34 i have had enough approvals from cool people 15:54:37 That was our course book, too. 15:54:51 Although I think the acronym used was just AIMA. 15:55:02 yeah, nobody calls it aiama 15:55:03 yeah perhaps 15:55:10 http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/ 15:55:36 cool ,peter norvig is directory of research at google 15:55:37 i was not aware 16:00:19 fungot: Don't you wish you had a real AI brain too? I can loan you that book if you want to write yourself one. 16:00:19 fizzie: and with them bringing in the world... 16:16:40 it seems my back can't take sitting. 16:17:08 you're supposed to sit on your butt, not your back 16:20:18 hurts so much i don't even find that funny 16:20:31 oklopol: probably you're on the wrong type of chair, then 16:20:43 holy fucking shit... i think i should lie down 16:20:45 err 16:20:49 i'm actually on a bed 16:20:53 ah, ok 16:20:55 perhaps i'll try my armchair. 16:20:58 beds aren't really designed for sitting on 16:21:18 i have awful posture 16:21:26 I have weird posture 16:22:33 i've always had an awful posture, for instance people think i'm quite short, because i'm usually crouching some 10 centimeters down 16:23:10 have had to stand and sit a bit more ergonomically, as my back seems to be starting to... well, die. 16:23:23 umm 16:23:31 and once again i forget a crucial verb 16:23:56 asdads, well at least the armchair helped a bit, thanks for making me realize i have a chair. 16:32:35 +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*):*:*:*:*^ 16:32:36 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output! 16:32:39 +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*):*:*:*^ 16:32:39 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko 16:32:45 +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*):*:*:*^^ 16:32:45 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko 16:32:53 +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*):*:*:*^!^ 16:32:53 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokoko okokokoko okokoko okoko oko o 16:32:59 +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*):*:*:*^!!^ 16:32:59 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokoko okokokoko okokoko okoko oko o 16:33:04 ah, that's what I was aiming for 16:38:39 * mbishop squints 16:38:51 mbishop: have you never seen towers of oko before? 16:38:56 of course, it would be better with newlines 16:39:08 +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*)::*:*:**^!!^ 16:39:09 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokoko okokokoko okokoko okoko oko o 16:39:19 +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*)::*:**:*^!!^ 16:39:19 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokoko okokokoko okokoko okoko oko o 16:39:36 +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*):*:*:*:*:*^!!^ 16:39:38 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output! 16:39:39 i can almost read that, but what are the !'s all about? 16:39:43 +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*)::*:*:*:**^!!^ 16:39:43 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output! 16:39:47 +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*):*:*:*:*^!!^ 16:39:48 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output! 16:39:52 +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*):*:*:*^!!^ 16:39:52 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokoko okokokoko okokoko okoko oko o 16:40:01 oklopol: the first one gets the working string off the stack 16:40:12 and the second one gets rid of the repeat of the longest okokoko 16:40:14 so it has one peaks not two 16:40:17 ah! 16:41:01 anyway, the programming technique I used there is one that I don't think I've seen used in any other language 16:41:01 (i actually said an "ah" out loud too, except it was because of my back, and more like "AGHHHHHHH") 16:41:32 basically you store continuations in an explicit data structure 16:42:10 yes, it's a bit like that 16:42:24 hmm, i'm seriously considering seeing a doctor. and that is not something i do lightly. 16:43:27 guess i could take those pills that reduce pain, too, but that feels like cheating 16:49:09 "continuations in an explicit data structure" sounds very much what I did in the Prolog-Scheme. 16:49:38 incidentally, the Underload divmod-by-constant I wrote used a similar trick 16:49:43 okay i cannot code with this back. 16:49:45 to divide by 10, it copied a program n times on the stack 16:49:56 each of which popped the 9 elements below it and ran the 10th 17:08:02 so 17:08:11 im going to work on a context free grammar for chinese stroke order 17:08:12 :o 17:08:49 chonese character i mean 17:11:16 I don't think I can do better than 71% :( 17:11:19 At least not with this data set. 17:11:49 GregorR 17:11:58 i will help you with neural net stuff 17:12:00 beacuse i like neural nets 17:12:16 http://home.codu.org/colormatch/ Help me by generating data :P 17:12:52 i did but i'll continue 17:12:54 GregorR: plz add accesskeys 17:13:03 I don't know how. 17:13:04 a,s,d for the three buttons respectively 17:13:08 GregorR: accesskey="a" 17:13:10 accesskey="s" 17:13:11 etc 17:13:13 on the button elements 17:13:22 Really? 17:13:23 That's it? 17:13:24 yes 17:13:30 One sec. 17:13:34 then alt-key or ctrl-key(on os x) activates it 17:13:38 you can do it on input fields too 17:13:39 and links 17:14:14 Done. 17:15:12 how many trains should I do? 17:15:15 30? 17:15:35 -!- metazilla has joined. 17:15:41 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:16:09 -!- moozilla has joined. 17:16:25 GregorR: 17:16:37 However many you'd like until you get bored :P 17:16:40 More data is more data. 17:17:09 GregorR: you got some training from me too 17:17:52 GregorR: I trained it a bit 17:17:55 how does it do now? 17:18:10 I would click them buttons, but I have no clue what colors "match". 17:18:23 fizzie: which look aesthetically pleasing together? 17:18:29 which colours "go" together? 17:18:40 I know the meaning, I just can't really tell. 17:19:15 blue goes with orange 17:19:23 fizzie: Just click yes if you like how it looks and no if you don't :P 17:19:41 fizzie: That's my problem, that's why I wrote this :P 17:19:48 That's just it, I'd end up doing "can't decide" on just about anything, with maybe a few "no"s in there. 17:19:49 fizzie: I want a computer to tell me if my tie goes with my shirt. 17:20:37 fizzie: are you colourblind? 17:20:45 If not, I think it's very easy to say "that's pretty" or "that's ugly". 17:20:49 ehird: No, just bad at making decisions. 17:20:50 For something that simple 17:21:19 GregorR: Does the script only ask for opinions on ones it thinks are good? 17:21:20 Try that. 17:21:30 and make a seperate ones for ones it doesn't like 17:21:39 so it's easier - "yep, that's right" or "no, that's wrong" 17:21:41 instead of a mix 17:24:16 -!- megatron has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:24:17 GregorR: 17:26:30 * GregorR reappears. 17:26:52 The script is completely unaware of the neural net. 17:26:56 The script just collects data. 17:31:38 GregorR: make it aware 17:31:38 :P 17:31:59 GregorR: better idea 17:32:04 make it only give ones the neural net isn't sure about 17:32:27 Yeah, it's a good idea, it's just a PITA because I didn't design it that way :P 17:32:52 GregorR: well do it :P 17:35:47 Incidentally, do you agree with my assumption that this should be determinable by a computer? 17:35:54 (At least ideally) 17:36:31 yes 17:38:31 Good, because I want a computer to tell me if my tie matches my shirt, damn it :P 17:39:18 GregorR: now modify the script 17:39:18 :P 17:43:05 I don't think you know how difficult that would be. 17:43:09 I would have to implement a neural net in PHP 17:43:20 Which isn't complicated ... 17:43:23 But still, Idowanna. 17:43:25 ERm 17:43:27 Idonwanna 17:43:32 (The 'n' is important :P ) 17:43:50 Gregor, that's brilliantly clever. 17:43:55 Besides, to be honest I doubt that would help all that much. 17:43:57 GregorR: no you dont 17:44:04 just interface with a commandline program 17:44:24 ehird: Presently the commandline program only knows how to evolve things and give their statistics :P 17:44:32 GregorR: tweak it a tiny bit. 17:44:52 ehird: Besides, I would have to interface with the /currently running one/, which is IPC. 17:45:12 pikhq: ? 17:45:58 a computer to determine your fashion? brilliant! 17:46:57 Althought that wouldn't help me, as I don't wear clothes 17:47:02 * mbishop stretches lewdly 17:47:13 Yay for text-based communication protocols. 17:50:16 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:50:30 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:51:41 GregorR: Neural net to see if colors match. 17:51:57 :) 17:52:46 Ah. When I say I want a computer to tell me if my tie matches my shirt, I'm not making a joke. That is really, truly the reason I wrote this :P 17:53:01 GregorR: after all, you get a computer to choose your hat... 17:53:05 (via human input, though) 17:53:13 Heh 17:53:22 I used to get a computer to do it totally randomly, but that wasn't democratic enough ;) 17:53:23 I'm not saying that it's a clever joke. 17:53:28 I'm saying that it's clever. 17:53:33 Big difference. ;) 17:56:20 I'm just trying to put it into its ridiculous context :P 18:05:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:10:25 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:16:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | a interpreter/VM/emu could store the compiled code in a cache, meaning that a program would only need to be compiled once. 18:20:34 http://divingintointercal.blogspot.com/ 18:20:45 ais523: http://divingintointercal.blogspot.com/ 18:36:51 "The bad news is that the previous sentence is the only good news." :D 18:41:48 "As a programming language, INTERCAL remains every bit as useful as it was over thirty years ago." 18:45:55 ehird: I've seen it before 18:45:57 has there been a new entry? 18:47:26 nope, no new entries since I last saw it 18:47:29 I'm worried it's dead... 18:50:13 -!- Corun_ has joined. 18:50:32 back 18:50:35 ais523: last post 07 18:51:08 ehird: this is INTERCAL we're talking about, I suspect it requires approx. 12 years before it can truly be considered dead 18:51:13 :D 18:54:28 -!- olsner has joined. 19:05:33 -!- Corun__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:06:19 -!- Thomsen has joined. 19:06:29 -!- Thomsen has left (?). 19:22:10 73% 8-D 19:25:46 Have you bothered to check how many % you'd get if you didn't use your fancy perverted sex-obsessed neural networks, and just used something like a mixture-of-gaussians model estimated from the "pair of colors -> goes-togetherness" data and a fixed threshold to get yes/no out of it? 19:27:00 -!- oerjan has quit ("Antabus"). 19:28:42 Maybe it would be significantly less awesome, though. 19:32:09 fancy perverted sex-obsessed neural network == brain, right? 19:33:10 No, I think GregorR's having sex with his artificial neural networks, too. Or making them have sex together. Or some other depraved thing, anyway. 19:41:09 fizzie, any more issues? 19:41:38 Not that I know of, except that I still haven't fixed out an output length limiter in it. 19:43:20 no more crash? good 19:44:25 I just brought a ethernet switch today... opened the box... why the heck is there a cd in it saying "\nMy Digital Life" on it 19:44:42 because everything comes with random Windows programs nowadays 19:44:51 oh right 19:44:52 some of them are actually OK, but generally speaking you can throw them away 19:45:07 well it doesn't even say what's on it really 19:45:19 manual is my best guess since there is none elsewhere 19:46:57 ais523, I just can't see how there could be any windows program related to the switch, it is a consumer one, so no webui or settings or such 19:47:07 AnMaster: it doesn't have to be /related/ 19:47:09 it could be anything 19:47:14 ok... 19:47:15 my guess is some sort of digital photo album 19:47:43 well the cd have the name of the product on it too 19:48:06 the box of the product however says "independent of operating system" hehe 19:48:16 maybe it's an audio CD 19:49:23 well I'll check later, for now I got to move a few computers around, I may lose connection shortly (or it may work without dropping the connection) 19:50:54 Decided to be brave and just check how much I mess up if I try to add that output length limit to the underload interp without any testing. 19:50:57 ^reload 19:50:57 Reloaded. 19:51:05 ^ul ((x)S:^):^ 19:51:05 x 19:51:11 Uh... 19:51:17 did you limit output length to 1? 19:51:29 ^ul (Hello, world!)S( Hello, again!)S 19:51:29 Hello, world! 19:51:29 hah 19:51:30 No, not that I know of, and in any case it should add a "... too much output!" after it. 19:51:39 grr what a cable mess behind the computer 19:51:40 it's ending after the first S instruction 19:51:41 Seems like it just stops at the first S now. 19:51:42 Yes. 19:51:55 and several unconnected cables 19:51:58 AnMaster: how many computers do you have? 19:52:07 oklopol, two 19:52:28 and the other one is using a temporary 50 meter ethernet cable I happened to have around 19:52:34 to the main switch 19:52:42 but that just doesn't work well, you can't close the doors 19:52:51 so I bought a switch to have in this room 19:52:53 instead 19:53:05 I've got my ` test backwards, heh. And the "too much output" just gets lost because it's added too far away. 19:53:20 ^reload 19:53:20 Reloaded. 19:53:27 ^ul ((x)S:^):^ 19:53:27 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output! 19:53:30 Yay. 19:53:36 +ul ((x)S:^):^ 19:53:37 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output! 19:53:46 your output limit is slightly longer than mine, I think 19:53:51 Yes, mine is 777** 19:54:00 I can't remember what mine is offhand 19:54:02 So, 343 characters. 19:54:09 but I think that it's at least written in decimal, so I could check 19:54:16 my guess is 255 or 256, because I'm like that 19:54:43 It's also longer than my brainfuck limit. 19:54:44 ^bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++++<-]>[.] 19:54:44 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ... 19:54:56 That one's only ff*, so 225. 19:55:57 (To be entirely accurate, the limit is 777** characters for the entire IRC message, including the "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" part.) 19:56:12 The oko program should now be safe to run: 19:56:14 ^ul (o)(~:S(ko)*( )S~:^):^ 19:56:14 o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokok ...too much output! 19:56:32 fizzie: what limits do you have? 19:56:58 thutubot has number of iterations of the main loop (a time limit), amount of output, and amount of memory used 19:57:09 main loop iterations doesn't easily correspond to commands, by the way 19:57:31 Stack length (10k characters), program length (if it tries to extend too far "to the left" -- but I'm not sure that works, I haven't hit it yet), amount of commands executed, and that output limit. 19:57:56 fizzie: shall I come up with a massively extending program for you to test program length? 19:58:10 +ul (:::::^):^ 19:58:23 oklopol: that extends stack not program 19:58:26 +ul ((S)S:::::^):^ 19:58:28 and thutubot will run it, but slowly 19:58:28 ...too much memory used! 19:58:40 SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS ...too much output! 19:58:56 test test? 19:58:58 I think something like (((longsillything)!)~*:^):^ should grow, but that just results in a "out of time" thing. 19:58:59 still connected? 19:59:02 yay 19:59:03 ^ul (:*^):^ 19:59:03 ...out of stack! 19:59:10 ^ul (:*:^):^ 19:59:11 ...too much stack! 19:59:23 +ul ()(~(o)~:^):^ 19:59:29 the stack limit must be a lot shorter than the program limit... 19:59:56 I guess it is, in fact. 20:00:21 it's much harder to get a program that blows up exponentially if you can't put it on the stack 20:00:37 Well, I think a linearly extending program should work too. 20:00:41 probably impossible 20:00:47 I'll try linearly extending 20:01:02 ^ul (:^(foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo)):^ 20:01:02 ...too much prog! 20:01:06 Hey, you did it. 20:02:11 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:02:15 -!- puzzlet has joined. 20:03:21 while rc/funge got lots of odd limits, for cfunge the only limits would/should be how large size_t is 20:03:48 I think it's still possible to create quite a short program, if you first fill the stack with two few-kilobyte strings, and then execute (~:^):^ 20:03:55 (and off_t or whatever it is that you use for files. can't remember) 20:04:07 Er, substitute "short" with "long-running" there. 20:04:13 AnMaster: rc/funge's limits are things like 1000, so they're even not odd 20:04:20 ais523, har har 20:04:44 * AnMaster don't feel like joking atm, got a fever so probably heading to bed soon 20:04:56 or probably have a fever* 20:05:01 sorry, oerjan seems to be inactive and someone has to make the bad puns 20:05:02 has in /me 20:05:10 ^ul (:(foo)S^):^ 20:05:10 foofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoo ...too much output! 20:05:20 Ha, I beat the repressive linear growth stopper. 20:05:21 hi ehird 20:05:29 ^ul (:()S^):^ 20:05:31 ...out of time! 20:05:36 aw. 20:05:45 ehird: the first program doesn't grow linearly 20:05:47 ^ul (:::^^^):^S 20:05:48 ...too much stack! 20:05:48 it's tail-recursive 20:05:51 ah 20:06:03 (:::^^^):^S <- shouldnt this be 3^3 20:06:06 ^ul (::^^):^S 20:06:07 ...too much stack! 20:06:19 ehird: :::^^^ is something silly like 3 nested infinite loops 20:06:29 um what are numbers then 20:06:31 3^3 is (::**)(::**)^ 20:06:35 ahh 20:06:39 ^ul (::**):^S 20:06:39 ::**::**::** 20:06:49 to output a number in unary use (x)~^S 20:06:52 == 4 20:06:53 i think 20:06:56 ais523: ah, thanks 20:07:00 ^ul (::**):^(x)~^S 20:07:00 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 20:07:11 oh, right 20:07:12 ::** is 3 20:07:16 ^ul (:*):^(x)~^S 20:07:16 xxxx 20:07:27 1 is the null string, always fun 20:07:29 :::^^^ means roughly f(f)(f)(f) 20:07:32 oklopol: yes 20:08:00 to be precise, it would be \f.f(f)(f)(f) 20:08:06 if not for the fact that the stack could change in the meantime 20:08:20 true 20:08:41 ^ul ()(~:(x)~^S( )S(:*)*~:^):^ 20:08:41 x xx xxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output! 20:08:46 +ul (:::***):::^^^(x)~^S 20:08:54 ais523: um what is that outputting? 20:08:57 it should be x xx xxx xxxx 20:09:01 +ul ()(:*)(::**)(:::***):::^^^(x)~^S 20:09:06 oklopol's program outputs an insanely large number 20:09:10 no 20:09:10 oklopol: let the first one end first 20:09:11 my program 20:09:13 ()(~:(x)~^S( )S(:*)*~:^):^ 20:09:16 ...too much memory used! 20:09:22 yours is doing powers of 2 I think 20:09:27 but why 20:09:28 now i have to work out why 20:09:30 I just put :* at the end each time 20:09:35 hmm 20:09:35 err 20:09:37 that's *2 20:09:38 do i have to do ::** 20:09:39 well, that's why 20:09:40 ...too much memory used! 20:09:44 right, right 20:09:45 so how do i do 20:09:48 (:*) is 2 20:09:48 :* -> ::** 20:09:50 (:*)* is * 2 20:09:53 to add 1 20:09:58 do (:)~*(*)* 20:09:58 ehird: well 20:10:03 add a : and a * 20:10:06 and you do addition by adding 1 in a loop 20:10:07 yeah 20:10:11 do what ais523 said 20:10:12 ais523, if everything comes with a cd these days, how comes the mobile phone (cell phone? Or is that US Eng.?) that *can* connect to a computer didn't came with a cd 20:10:13 ais523: great, it went over my head 20:10:14 :( 20:10:18 that is highly illogical 20:10:19 I was just starting to "get" underload. 20:10:41 ehird: basically, if you have ::** and you want to make it :::***, just do exactly what that says, concatenate a : and a * 20:10:49 oh, right 20:10:54 so (:)~* to put a : at the start 20:10:59 and (*)* to put a * at the end 20:11:02 right, right 20:11:03 thanks 20:11:08 ^ul ()(~:(*)~^S( )S(:)~*(*)*~:^):^ 20:11:09 * ** *** **** ***** ****** ******* ******** ********* ********** *********** ************ ************* ************** *************** **************** ***************** ****************** ******************* ******************** ********************* ********************** *********************** ************************ ...too much output! 20:11:12 :-D 20:11:14 i guess ais523's was actually less spoiling, because if you can't *program* that, you definitely can't *read* it. 20:11:37 esolangs have spoilers nowadays? 20:12:17 ais523: i meant if ehird asks how something is done, it's spoiling if you don't hint, but just write the program 20:12:27 ah, ok 20:12:40 hmm 20:12:42 what about subtraction? 20:12:54 "doing their homework" on channels with a subject that's actually taught somewhere :P 20:13:02 ehird: that's quite simple 20:13:08 subtraction is a pain, oklopol worked it out for emself eventually, and asiekerka gave up 20:13:11 it's quite simple if you know how 20:13:15 ehird: basically 20:13:17 but difficult to come up with in the first place 20:13:24 you know what :::*** actually does? 20:13:27 yes 20:13:30 okay 20:13:30 duplicates 3 times, conc... 20:13:32 AHA 20:13:44 so 20:13:45 you do 20:13:50 call the number, on (:) 20:13:51 now, after :::, do something, before ***, do something, you can make ::: and *** out of running :::*** 20:13:51 drop one 20:13:53 call it on (*) 20:13:54 drop one 20:13:54 yes 20:13:58 wee 20:13:58 and concatenate all that together 20:13:59 almost. 20:14:01 *well 20:14:02 :( 20:14:10 the latter drop one 20:14:13 oklopol: incidentally, there's an entirely different way to write +1 in Underload: :(:)~^~(*)~^* 20:14:27 how do you drop one from a string of *'s? 20:14:31 i mean, you *can't* 20:14:44 you have to come up with something that forms identity when used with * 20:15:10 ^ul (::::::::::**********)(~ (*)~^S( )S :::(:)^!(*)^!()(*)^ ~:^):^ 20:15:11 ...bad insn! 20:15:13 ais523: yeah, that's actually a good way to get substraction 20:15:22 ehird: spaces 20:15:24 nonono. 20:15:49 oklopol: ah, it would be, I don't think I've ever done it like that though, but probably it would be a computational order more efficient than the way I normally do it 20:16:00 whereas for addition it's a computational order less efficient 20:16:05 ^ul (::::::::::**********)(~(*)~^S( )S:::(:)^!(*)^!()(*)^~:^):^ 20:16:05 *********** ** ...out of stack! 20:16:29 ais523: you talking about subtraction or addition? 20:17:29 ehird: :::*** actually makes a (::::) when you call it on (:), so it's not actually drop *one* 20:17:40 ah 20:17:47 damn 20:17:50 i don't kbnow what to do then 20:17:51 oklopol: I'm talking about that technique for both, it makes subtraction faster but addition slower 20:18:04 as for subtraction you can generate lots of !s and ()s 20:18:07 ais523: what do you usually do for subtraction? 20:18:09 ehird: well 20:18:12 look at it like this 20:18:22 first, you use the number on (:), that's a given 20:18:24 oklopol: -1 in a loop 20:18:42 but you actually want the effect of two less :'s 20:18:46 so what do you need to put here? 20:18:56 half a :? 20:18:56 :| 20:19:00 oh hm 20:19:01 umm. 20:19:02 no 20:19:03 !:? 20:19:14 you have(:::***) generate :::: 20:19:17 so now the stack is 20:19:24 (x)(x)(x)(x)(x) 20:19:30 and you want (x)(x)(x) 20:19:36 oh, right 20:19:40 yeah. 20:19:50 now, you cannot make "two less *'s than the number" 20:19:55 ^ul (::::::::::**********)(~(*)~^S( )S:::(:)^!(*)^(!!)*()(*)^~:^):^ 20:19:56 *********** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ...too much output! 20:20:01 so you need to make four *'s as well 20:20:24 the problem is, with four *'s on three (x)'s, you concatenate random crap into them 20:20:32 yes 20:20:38 so put something on there first 20:20:39 so you need to add something more in the middle of the number 20:20:40 () 20:20:40 yes 20:20:47 ^ul (::::::::::**********)(~(*)~^S( )S:::(:)^!(*)^(!!())*()(*)^~:^):^ 20:20:47 exactly, and how many? 20:20:47 *********** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ...too much output! 20:20:52 ^ul (::::::::::**********)(~(*)~^S( )S:::(:)^!(*)^(!!()())*()(*)^~:^):^ 20:20:52 *********** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ...too much output! 20:20:57 shrug :P 20:21:04 exactly as many as you have there. 20:21:14 so wher be my fuckup 20:21:32 **** run on three (x)'s concatenates exactly two pieces of random crap into it 20:21:32 ^ul (::::::::::**********)(~:(*)~^S( )S:::(:)^!(*)^(!!)*()(*)^~:^):^ 20:21:32 *********** 20:22:12 * oklopol reads 20:22:46 (:)^ this is equivalent to just : 20:22:52 do you mean (:)~^? 20:23:00 that would make the :'s you need 20:23:04 ahhhhh 20:23:10 ^ul (::::::::::**********)(~:(*)~^S( )S:::(:)~^!(*)^(!!)*()(*)~^~:^):^ 20:23:10 *********** 20:23:47 err 20:23:47 ehird: ()(*)~^ is clearly not what you want 20:23:48 ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(:)~^(!!)*(()())*~(*)~^*:(x)~^S( )S~:^):^ 20:23:49 xxxxx xxxx xxx xx x ...too much output! 20:23:53 Just had to try. 20:24:05 ^ul (::::::::::**********)(~:(*)~^S( )S:::(:)~^!(*)^(!!())*(*)~^~:^):^ 20:24:06 fizzie: that simplifies a bit 20:24:06 *********** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ...too much output! 20:24:27 ah wait 20:24:31 its running it on the weird !!() thing 20:24:32 damn 20:24:35 ais523: I know. 20:24:38 ^ul (::::::::::**********)(~:(*)~^S( )S:::(:)~^!(*)^(!!())*~(*)^~:^):^ 20:24:39 *********** ...too much prog! 20:24:55 ehird: what's the first ! about? 20:25:12 you create an concatenated piece of :'s on the stack, and then drop it? :D 20:25:26 you shoud comment your underload 20:25:49 oh fuck this 20:25:49 :D 20:25:51 *should 20:25:55 are you giving up? 20:26:10 My second thought was to do something like 20:26:11 ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(:)~^(!!!)*(()()())*~(*)~^*:(:)~^~(*)~^*:(x)~^S( )S~:^):^ 20:26:11 xxxxx xxxx xxx xx x *x ...out of stack! 20:26:12 maybe 20:26:19 i'll write a more interesting program 20:26:20 That's not pretty either. 20:26:33 hmm 20:26:36 i wonder how i could do dip 20:26:56 dip : 'R 'a ('R -- 'S) -- 'S 'a 20:26:57 dip is very neat in Underload 20:27:01 ais523: let me work it out 20:27:21 +ul (::::::******)(~:(*)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~:^):^ 20:27:23 ******* ****** ***** **** *** ** * ...too much output! 20:27:26 yay 20:27:31 :D 20:27:35 i love underload 20:27:35 oklopol: get it to terminate when it's finished? 20:27:43 yeah was just thinking that 20:28:40 ais523: dip = ~a*^ 20:28:55 yes 20:29:20 ais523: hmm 20:29:21 isn't it aa 20:29:26 ... no 20:29:54 +ul (::::::******)(~:(*)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*:()~(~:^)~(!()())~(a)~^^!~!^):^ 20:29:56 ******* ****** ***** **** *** ** * ...too much output! 20:30:02 (foo) (bar) (koed) -> (foo) (koed) (bar) -> (foo) (koed) ((bar)) -> (foo) (koed(bar)) -> voila 20:30:16 i didn't even work ~a*^ out on paper, a first for me 20:30:24 seems i have to go -> 20:30:29 i had to close my eyes to concentrate enough though 20:30:59 bye oklopol 20:43:19 -!- lilja has joined. 20:43:34 hats! 20:43:41 fungot now trained with the intercal manual; but I couldn't figure out how to generate nice non-wrapped text out of groff, so... 20:43:41 fizzie: please abstain from gerund list, line label of which was abstained from. however, as these routines might 20:43:54 So it stops dead in the middle of sentences. 20:43:59 fizzie: the Revised Manual, or the Revamped Manual? 20:44:09 presumably Revised as it was groff 20:44:17 Whatever was in the doc/ directory of c-intercal 0.2.4 or something. 20:44:32 There's a better manual I could've used? 20:44:34 revised, then 20:44:37 yes, there's a new one 20:44:39 which is much longer 20:44:43 in Texinfo 20:44:45 Ooh, that sounds better. 20:44:50 but it's only in the more recent versions 20:45:18 fizzie: http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/doc/ick.txi is the source 20:47:40 Let's see what reading that does to fungot. 20:47:41 fizzie: maybe don't give your name ( in other programming languages. 20:47:51 fungot: another? 20:47:51 ais523: intercal-72 c-intercal clc-intercal j-intercal yes all versions 20:48:00 Sounds like a table. 20:48:06 it's the "portability" boxes 20:48:13 Heh. 20:48:13 there are lots of them 20:48:17 fungot: Could you ignore that? 20:48:17 fizzie: copyright ( c). to install elsewhere ( in this way. note that the program can either decide that it needs to be used; a default value will be available to unpack the installation directory, so otherwise there would be executed. 20:48:32 fungot: more Revamped Manual info? 20:48:33 ais523: however, clc-intercal uses lowercase to represent multiplication by 1000000 writes a backslash before the current directory by typing `cd ick-0.29') on the user to find the appropriate cross-compiler to translate its programs from the internet, including any `once' or `next from's, `next from's aiming at a command whose line label that the compiler doesn't use them.) 20:49:08 That didn't make much sense. 20:49:16 fungot: make more sense 20:49:16 ais523: this is tested mostly with that compiler, what actually happens, then the file it was hardcoded as a function ( for instance, `-h' ( currently the only way to pop the top of stack. 20:49:33 So "-h" is the only way to pop. Right. 20:51:31 I don't think the bot is being a very useful intercal reference; I guess I'll switch to some other text. 20:51:49 fungot: last try? 20:51:49 ais523: there is a fatal error ( e000) due to the error that would otherwise not have to simplify the program will end up with a higher character code; the ' marker'; a marker is represented as a thread, one digit at a labeled statement, and c-intercal version 0.29). 20:52:11 fizzie: Idea. 20:52:29 fizzie: Feed it the first million digits of pi, make it always start on 3. 20:52:42 and make it based on 2 chars 20:54:07 Wouldn't that just make it a less-than-stellar RNG? 20:54:41 fizzie: Well, maybe. 20:54:42 Hmm. 20:54:46 fizzie: Make it order=10 chars. 20:54:52 It'd look like pi, unless you knew pi. 20:55:24 I'd think any string of random digits would look like pi, as long as it "starts right". 20:55:36 there's that Pi programming language, isn't there 20:55:45 which encodes the program as subtle errors in digits of the number pi 20:57:37 In the wiki there's also "Another Pi Language", where the source code is two arbitrary integers; first is the index in pi and second is the amount of digits to read; that is then interpreted as "source file of any language". Unsurprisingly unimplemented. 20:57:59 that language should itself be Pi, obviously 20:58:13 Pi seems to be the errors-in-pi one. 20:58:20 no, I meaan 20:58:26 the "source file of any language" should be Pi source 20:58:38 thus you have to find a Pi program embedded in Pi 20:58:49 Yes, I understood that. 20:59:28 At least the Pi article has an implementation that will convert brainfuck into it. 21:18:03 wtf 21:18:21 this new phone only have weird sounds, no classical beeping ones 21:18:28 * AnMaster liked that with his old old phone 21:18:31 I guess I 21:18:33 that's common practice nowadays 21:18:37 hm *.aac 21:18:38 you have to /pay/ if you want beeps 21:18:43 download them from a beep website 21:18:45 I guess I could make one and transfer it 21:18:46 there has to be one 21:19:14 ais523, I don't have internet on my phone. Only pay for a cheap connection 21:19:20 ah, ok 21:19:29 even then there are numbers you can ring for that sort of thing 21:19:31 since all I need is to make calls and to send sms 21:19:32 but it's expensive 21:19:37 * ais523 doesn't have a mobile at all 21:20:01 my old phone was an old one with black and white screen. However, you could make your own tunes on it 21:20:05 you can't on this one 21:20:09 pretty strange 21:20:14 oh, it makes sense 21:20:20 you used to be able to send texts for free 21:20:26 err? 21:20:32 but the phone companies realised people would pay for the privilege 21:20:36 so they started charging 21:20:40 that was a few years ago now 21:20:46 on my old phone I could make my own beeping sounds 21:20:55 it didn't even have non-beepy ones 21:21:01 beepy ones were the only mode 21:21:22 why can't I just make my own beepy ones on it 21:21:31 because people will pay to download them 21:21:35 I won't 21:21:43 well, some people will 21:21:49 and that's all the phone compaines care about... 21:21:58 I will try to figure out how to export to the *.aac format and then find a laptop with bluetooth to transfer it 21:22:14 * AnMaster looks in his midi collection 21:22:19 or I could make it myself 21:22:33 I *can* play the piano and I do have a keyboard + midi cables 21:23:16 .aac = apple's format 21:23:34 -!- ab5tract has joined. 21:23:35 hm wikipedia says "ISO/IEC 13818-7:2003" 21:23:35 AnMaster: if you give me a bunch of files i can make them into aacs 21:23:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Audio_Coding 21:23:39 well, yeah, it's standard 21:23:44 but itunes uses it by default 21:23:47 as well as the itunes store 21:23:47 and such. 21:23:55 ehird, I would be surprised if there is no tool to convert for linux 21:24:09 also I need to select one 21:24:12 there seem to be ways to convert FROM it 21:24:13 and to play 21:24:15 but not to convert TO 21:24:27 well, wait 21:24:35 ah I know... 21:24:35 AnMaster: faac 21:24:36 hehehe 21:24:37 AnMaster: ISO/IEC 29500:2008 21:24:38 install FAAC 21:24:41 The Internationale 21:24:45 lol 21:25:06 that's what I used on my old phone anyway. 21:26:23 hm how to render the midi file to beepy sound like a phone. 21:26:24 AnMaster: you could just use a ringing sound. 21:26:31 also, what phone is it 21:27:01 "Nokia 3120 Classic" 21:27:37 AnMaster: are you sure it doesn't support midi? 21:27:39 most phones do 21:28:04 ehird, no, I'm not sure, I just checked what format the existing files were in 21:28:11 AnMaster: try and put the midi on. 21:28:41 ehird, my computer lacks bluetooth, so I'll need to try it later when I get access to a laptop with bluetooth 21:28:51 AnMaster: usb? 21:29:06 ehird, "cable not included with phone" and I didn't think I would need it 21:29:11 + they didn't have it in stock 21:29:42 memory card: no I don't have any micro-sd reader or cards, my camera use compact flash 21:29:51 which of course would be too big for a phone 21:30:39 actually micro sd even 21:30:47 and I don't have such a reader either 21:32:10 why can't they make phones like my old nokia 2100 these days? :( 21:32:19 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:33:12 -!- puzzlet has joined. 21:44:30 -!- jix has joined. 21:45:35 it seems Keymaker just proved Sceql TC 21:52:50 i wish it wasn't just a compilation, i can't exactly reverse-engineer what happens 21:55:04 -!- kar8nga has joined. 22:12:10 -!- ab5tract has quit. 22:17:52 ais523, that cd with the router: acrobat reader + manual. So it was just badly labeled 22:18:14 ok 22:27:20 one page manual per language heh 22:27:31 (wouldn't printing it be easier?) 22:27:35 (and cheaper?) 22:44:30 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:45:29 fizzie, grr I can't find url to fungot 22:45:29 AnMaster: guess everyone's here... cloud. 22:45:36 so where is it now again? 22:45:55 ^help 22:45:55 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 22:45:58 ^show 22:45:59 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 22:46:08 oh, for a moment I though fungot was a real user, and was trying to figure out what its line meant 22:46:08 ais523: no matter how you feel it. then we'll know that's our memory...... calling...... that thing's not human...... 22:46:21 ais523, hah 22:48:21 fizzie: put lovecraft in to it 22:59:39 -!- lilja has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:59:57 fungot: do you still speak Agoran? 22:59:57 comex: wasn't it? 23:00:03 no 23:00:20 comex: not any more, fizzie filled it with something else 23:00:27 fungot's spouting a computer game script now, I think 23:00:27 ais523: i'm... i'm so disgusted with the story about sephiroth.... you really have to kill me!! that young fellow!? 23:11:58 Okay, fungot now has the lovecraft. 23:11:59 fizzie: on the other, he knew that it touched on the scenes i had haunted, and i felt myself touched by the contagion of the morbid fnord. to my mind rushed fragments of a more provocative nature. there were cities under the sea. 23:12:59 AnMaster: The raw sources are http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt and if you replace b98.txt with html you'll get the silly only partially done commentation. 23:13:00 fizzie: moon over japan, fnord with filth, where a bit of fnord but iranon stayed ever young, and of shadowy companies of heroes that ride fnord white horses along the edges of the aperture itself in my ascent, and managed to avoid any distant glimpse of the broken columns and crumbling sphinxes of that fearful city which lived and died before the years of man. 23:13:33 ^def source ul (http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt)S 23:13:33 Defined. 23:13:36 ^source 23:13:36 http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 23:13:45 fizzie, hope you like that idea 23:16:17 ^save 23:16:18 wati 23:16:24 fizzie, ^save I guess 23:16:54 fizzie, also firefox 2 says that a script have stopped responding on http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.html 23:16:55 -!- megatron has joined. 23:16:56 AnMaster: " ia! shub-niggurath! as a foulness shall ye know them,' he asked softly, ' did you see it here... and smell it?' and when mr. ward, it is hard to place the fragmentary dream-glimpses in the fnord lips an all but impassable barrier. from my experience i cannot doubt but that you will want to lead an expedition to the desert and its carven stones. 23:17:03 wondering if I want to abort it 23:17:03 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 23:17:20 -!- moozilla has joined. 23:17:27 fizzie, oh and lovecraft in fungot sucks 23:17:28 AnMaster: as the newspapers told, we sailed from boston harbor on september 2nd, 1930, taking a leisurely course down the coast and through the doorway came a faint but peculiarly hateful odor must represent the collected sections of the entity which lake had tried to follow backward the frescoes he had passed the open fnord purple slopes. against these fnord i have proven false to alos, my friend was always far ahead; i could 23:19:32 fizzie, also does fungot use any other fingerprints apart from FING STRN SOCK SCKE FILE TOYS SUBR 23:19:33 AnMaster: he was half crazy himself, and stuff them fnord into an account of his sea voyaging, had a depth and hollowness that could not be applied to analogous qualities in a fnord and promising cat now, and have kept certain doubts and guesses to ourselves with splendid unity and fnord. 23:26:28 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:27:59 ^save 23:27:59 OK. 23:28:06 Haven't tried saving underload programs yet. 23:28:10 I don't think it uses any others. 23:28:19 ^show source 23:28:19 (http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt)S 23:28:32 Nice, although it should be in the ^help text optimally. 23:28:48 Of course, given the underload interp I think I could just replace ^help with a program like that. 23:29:12 (The only thing missing would be that currently it gets the '^' command character from whatever you define it in the loader. Oh, well.) 23:29:49 The script does quite a lot of computation; it shouldn't be in an infinite loop, but FF2's JavaScript engine is quite a lot slower than FF3's. 23:30:46 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 23:32:09 fizzie, ah right 23:32:17 it tooks 3 clicks in that dialog for it to finish 23:32:19 in ff2 23:32:35 fizzie, oh you got an fd leak on ^raw quit 23:32:44 ==16011== Open AF_INET socket 3: 192.168.0.64:38732 <-> 85.188.1.26:6667 23:32:44 ==16011== at 0x35FAEC1267: socket (in /lib64/libc-2.6.1.so) 23:32:44 ==16011== by 0x41967E: finger_SOCK_create (SOCK.c:376) 23:32:46 ... 23:33:03 not very major 23:34:38 fizzie, anyway what fingerprints and what functions from which fingerprints are used. Since I consider fungot very important I want to make sure those instructions perform well. For example I rewrote A of STRN to be a bit faster today (could probably be made even faster) 23:34:39 AnMaster: the reason why arthur jermyns charred fragments were not collected and buried lies in what was certainly not english. i boarded it and looked vainly about for the light fnord as i was, i could at least bar others from the outside, so the party was somewhat abated. vast walls shot up, and in 23:35:35 also STRN is kind of weird. I mean it copies between stack and funge space, yet converts them to unsigned char* in between. I mean... what a waste. But I guess using strings of funge_cell could break stuff 23:46:51 Yeah, I don't bother closing that single socket I have. 23:47:05 I do properly close the language model files I open every time someone speaks to the bot. 23:47:25 fungot: Go back to IRC chat for now. 23:47:26 fizzie: or simply sub by 47 23:50:52 Let's see... from FILE I use G/P for the state file (not performance-critical at all) and then R/S a whole lot for the babbling; FING Y/Z but not much; from STRN it's mostly G, P, N, L, C, A, S, V approximately in that order of frequent use (so G/P most, S/V pretty much in the state file saving/loading only); ... 23:51:45 -!- Corun__ has joined. 23:52:10 From SOCK it's just R/W most of the time, from TOYS only S to clear the old code when ^reloading (so it might be good if S'ing to value 32 would actually clear those cells), and from SUBR only a C/R pair for ^code. 23:55:16 Now I sleep. 23:59:09 -!- Corun_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2008-10-28: 00:08:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:08:52 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 00:16:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hm.. 00:25:50 .mh 00:37:19 -!- M0ny has quit ("Hum... Hum..."). 01:02:51 -!- Slereah has joined. 01:04:25 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:04:29 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:22:02 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 01:31:08 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:31:10 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:33:48 -!- boily has joined. 01:34:05 http://home.codu.org/colormatch/check.html // seems to sorta-kinda work 8-D 01:35:40 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:37:56 -!- boily has quit (Client Quit). 01:38:05 Result: My shirt matches my tie 8-D 01:40:03 or so one would assume 01:44:13 eww ties. 01:55:10 GregorR: http://photos-b.l3-t.facebook.com/photos-l3-sf2p/v355/140/51/644027966/n644027966_1050121_9574.jpg <-- wear this. 01:55:36 I can't read that. 01:55:50 Also, why is nobody as excited about my aesthetic color chooser as I am :P 01:56:20 Because Google Chrome is being slow. 01:57:04 And having tie fetish attacks. 01:57:11 * ihope re-ponders the subject of that sentence 01:58:04 ENKI-][: i cannot make out who i am supposed to obey there 01:58:23 oerjan: it's OBEY spelled backwards. 01:59:06 oerjan: i also have a CTHULU/DAGON '08 shirt to wear to erection day. 01:59:15 er. i mean. 01:59:19 obama day 01:59:20 er 01:59:22 <_< 01:59:24 :-) 01:59:27 who is dagon 02:00:55 also i prefer the Allosaurus to Cthulhu 02:04:01 dagon is the one who made a small new england port town sacrifice virgins to it until it ate the whole down 02:04:25 ic 02:05:00 ihope: Got it working? 02:05:03 Anybody: Got it working? 02:05:06 It's pretty cool :P 02:05:25 +ul (a::aaa:::)((!()):a)~*^(~S:^):^ 02:05:26 (((((!())))))(((((!())))))(((((!())))))(((((!())))))((!()))((!()))!() ...S out of stack! 02:05:39 * ihope goes there 02:06:13 GregorR: 0 is rejected, 1 accepted i take 02:06:18 ooh. what language is that? i remember seeing it somewhere 02:06:21 oerjan: Yes. 02:06:22 underload 02:06:39 oerjan: And for some reason it doesn't take identical colors as a match, I should probably generate some cases for that. 02:10:23 -!- Corun__ has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 02:30:11 -!- ihope has changed nick to uoris. 02:33:51 Heh, this stupid project spanned three languages X-D 03:21:57 -!- ab5tract has joined. 03:22:55 am I right in thinking it presses "check match" for you if you use the random button? 03:23:08 because I can't find one which doesn't match #489764 :( 03:23:36 though the result does flicker from 0 to 1 occasionally 03:23:42 When you press random it chooses a random /matching/ one. 03:24:05 It generates a random number, checks it, and if it fails, loops. 03:24:29 ah, I see 03:24:34 In worst case, couldn't that be very inefficient? 03:25:16 ah, yes, #ff00ff quite easily results in 0 03:28:58 +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!):a)~*^()(:a~*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^S 03:28:59 ...^ out of stack! 03:29:02 argh 03:30:52 +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!):a)~*^()(~S:^):^ 03:30:53 (((((!!)))))(((((!!)))))(((((!!)))))(((((!!)))))((!!))((!!))!! ...S out of stack! 03:31:23 +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!):a)~*^()(~aS:^):^ 03:31:24 ()((((((!!))))))((((((!!))))))((((((!!))))))((((((!!))))))(((!!)))(((!!)))(!!) ...a out of stack! 03:38:25 +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^S 03:38:26 ...^ out of stack! 03:39:50 +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*):^(~a^S:^):^ 03:39:51 ~:(*a(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*):^)~^(((((!!)))))(((((!!)))))(((((!!)))))(((((!!)))))((!!))((!!))!! ...a out of stack! 03:40:20 er wait 03:40:26 +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*):^(~aS:^):^ 03:40:27 (~:(*a(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*):^)~^)()((((((!!))))))((((((!!))))))((((((!!))))))((((((!!))))))(((!!)))(((!!)))(!!) ...a out of stack! 03:46:08 +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^S 03:46:09 (((((((((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))((!!()())))((!!()()))) 03:46:33 +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(~aS:^):^ 03:46:35 ((((((((((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))((!!()())))((!!()())))) ...a out of stack! 04:02:10 +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(~*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(~aS:^):^ 04:02:12 ((((!!()()))(((!!()()))((((((!!()())))))((((((!!()())))))((((((!!()())))))((((((!!()())))))))))))) ...a out of stack! 04:29:14 -!- uoris has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:29:20 +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*)~*(!^^)*~a*(:^)*^):^ 04:29:22 ...~ out of stack! 04:29:37 -!- uoris has joined. 04:29:52 +ul (A)SS 04:29:53 A ...S out of stack! 04:30:39 +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*)~*(!^^)*~a*(:^)*):^(~aS:^):^ 04:30:40 (~a*^((^)((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())!^^(^):^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*)~*(!^^)*~a*(:^)*)((((((((((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))((!!()())))((!!()())))) ...too much output! 04:44:13 +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*^)*~*(!^^)*~a*(:^)*^):^ 04:44:14 AAAA ...^ out of stack! 04:44:37 +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(^^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*^)*~*(!^^)*~a*(:^)*^):^ 04:44:38 AAAA ...^ out of stack! 04:45:57 +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*^)*~*(!^^)*~a*(:^)*^)()~^(~aS:^):^ 04:45:58 ()(!!()())(((((((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))()(!(A)S(^)*())((:)S)(^) ...a out of stack! 04:46:04 -!- immibis has joined. 04:48:30 +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*^)*~*(!^^)*~a*()*^):^(~aS:^):^ 04:48:31 (~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*^)*~*(!^^)*~a*()*^)(!!()())(((((((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()())))))) ...too much output! 04:52:19 +ul (a::aaa:::aa)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*^)*~*(!^^)*~a*(:^)*^):^ 04:52:20 AAAA ...^ out of stack! 04:52:35 +ul (::aaa:::aa)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*^)*~*(!^^)*~a*(:^)*^):^ 04:52:36 A:A ...^ out of stack! 04:53:34 +ul (:a:)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*^)*~*(!^^)*~a*(:^)*^):^ 04:53:35 AA:A ...^ out of stack! 04:54:06 +ul (a:a:)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*^)*~*(!^^)*~a*(:^)*^):^ 04:54:08 AAA:A ...^ out of stack! 04:54:53 +ul (a:a:)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(~aS:^):^ 04:54:54 (((((((!!()()))))(((!!()()))))((!!()())))) ...a out of stack! 04:54:56 i see a lot of smiley faces, cakes and angels 04:55:25 +ul (::a:)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(~aS:^):^ 04:55:26 (((((((!!()())))((!!()())))(!!()()))(!!()()))) ...a out of stack! 05:01:09 hm there appear to be two sets of outer parentheses 05:01:20 *outermost 05:01:48 that would clearly cause some bug 05:09:16 Should I agree with you? I don't know Underload. 05:11:23 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:11:36 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:12:17 since i'm barely understanding the program myself, i don't expect anyone to agree :D 05:12:53 is this program generating itself or something 05:13:16 no, i am trying to split up a list of a's and :'s 05:14:13 oh, there are parts that are self-generating, since that's the only way to loop in underload 05:14:41 very esoteric 05:15:02 yeah 05:15:32 but i think my brain has had enough for now 05:18:56 underload contains no command for splitting a string into characters, but i figured it should be theoretically possible if the characters are all a and : 05:20:20 oh, duh! 05:22:28 the second part is completely wrong, because a doesn't cause a new list element 05:22:48 needs a different strategy 05:36:10 -!- ab5tract has quit. 05:39:29 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:14:07 -!- metazilla has joined. 06:14:13 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 06:14:22 -!- moozilla has joined. 06:16:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | !2a:a;.. 06:22:37 -!- megatron has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:30:51 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:37:24 oerjan: that's a wonderful idea 06:40:48 lol green is the only thing that doesn't go with black 06:41:02 what? 06:41:18 i can answer you indirectly 06:41:31 by highlighting the one i was indirectly talking to 06:42:12 * oerjan assumes oklopol was misspelling GregorR as oerjan 06:42:12 GregorR: i would be quite interested, if i believed colors can "go together", i don't. 06:42:21 oh no 06:42:31 that was a separate thing 06:42:48 wonderful idea was about the underload thing 06:42:52 ah 06:43:37 did you try to replicate the functionality, or push the string splittered on the stack? 06:44:30 so far, i tried to print it out with a's upper cased 06:47:14 ouch, tried to rip my toenail off, but forgot i need to push my fingernail through the side first, or it won't come peacefully. 06:47:20 life is good 06:47:40 * oerjan prefers a nailcutter for all such things 06:49:10 isn't that pretty gay? probably doesn't even make you bleed. 06:49:39 (i don't have a nailcutter here, would probably use one if i had one near me) 06:51:12 * oerjan always carries one, in case of accidents 06:51:41 err, well that definitely sounds pretty gay :P 06:52:18 my nails are so fragile that if i don't do it properly at once they start disintegrating at the least provocation 06:52:34 cool 06:52:52 i have boring normal nails :< 06:53:45 well at least i don't polish them :D 06:54:16 although that might actually have helped with the fragility 06:55:04 so you fin[n]ish them, but not polish them; what other countries do you them? 06:55:57 hmm; lecture starts about now, i should probably consider leaving. 06:56:45 see you 06:59:42 -!- oerjan has quit ("Possibus?"). 07:33:48 i've never heard that device called a nailcutter 07:37:12 oh dear, i'm all out of bourbon 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:16:33 -!- olsner has joined. 09:19:51 -!- M0ny has joined. 10:00:16 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 10:17:30 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:33:26 From SOCK it's just R/W most of the time, from TOYS only S to clear the old code when ^reloading (so it might be good if S'ing to value 32 would actually clear those cells), and from SUBR only a C/R pair for ^code. <-- don't they already? 10:33:32 the TOYS one I mean 10:36:43 It might, I haven't checked at all. 10:36:46 Just a thought. 10:38:10 I guess you do that already in fungespace_set for any space. 11:07:02 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:09:18 -!- megatron has joined. 11:09:24 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 11:09:30 -!- moozilla has joined. 11:12:23 -!- metazilla has joined. 11:12:31 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 11:19:26 -!- moozilla has joined. 11:27:59 -!- megatron has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:29:27 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:38:06 -!- megatron has joined. 11:38:14 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 11:38:25 -!- moozilla has joined. 11:44:07 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:47:37 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:16:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | that's some serious time dilation. 12:17:14 optbot ! 12:17:15 M0ny: i suppose there have been worse last words. 12:22:44 Mona mona mona 13:03:06 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:03:56 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:37:33 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:41:20 Hey anyone know a good software to synth electronic mono-phonic (like old mobile phones) sound? For Linux. Using a MIDI file as input. 14:00:05 AnMaster: You're being a bit obsessive with your bleeps 14:04:07 ehird, oh? 14:04:14 AnMaster: You could just put the midi on it. :-P 14:04:26 ehird, I checked, impossible 14:04:36 is supports *.aac *.wma *.mp3 14:04:43 AnMaster: Just use a regular midi-to-mp3 rendering thing, then. 14:04:54 I don't think there are programs that make it sound like an old mobile. 14:04:59 At least I've never heard of any. 14:05:13 ehird, there must be 14:05:14 It'd be hard, what with the whole "polyphony" thing that MIDIs have. 14:05:27 otherwise I shall program my pc speaker and record it 14:05:38 AnMaster: as i said - obsessive 14:05:51 ehird, if you wish 14:06:04 I could maybe temp mend my old phone and record that 14:09:22 AnMaster: or you could just render the mid to a mp3 and put it on and forget about it because it's a bloody ringtone 14:10:37 You could take some sequencer application and change the instruments in the midi file to sound more bleepy. 14:11:00 Even better, download a ring-ring sound off the interwebs and put it on. 14:11:05 That's not very modern. 14:11:36 fizzie, hm 14:11:55 ehird, I doubt the "The Internationale" exists as that ;P 14:12:03 AnMaster: I meant just a regular ring, ring. 14:12:09 fizzie, good idea. Now where to find that... 14:12:22 That's as old as the telephone, so you can stay comfy in ancient history. 14:12:40 ehird, I *will* do this, nothing you say will change my mind 14:12:50 As I said. Obsessive. 14:17:22 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/28/student_charged/ (Insert typical el reg disclaimer.) 14:38:52 fizzie, I think I got an idea: Make a custom beepy soundfont, load that into to fluidsynth 14:38:56 along with the midi file 14:39:02 :D 14:40:30 ehird, ^ 14:43:00 http://wiki.openid.net/LID_Look_and_Feel Someone on the OpenID wiki complains that when entering their openid "socialism.is.EVIL.myopenid.com", it picks the default name "socialism" to log in to the wiki. (At the bottom) 14:43:00 XD 14:44:58 hahaha 14:45:29 ehird, well I think socialism is good 14:45:40 that's wholly irrelevant to my amusement but... whatever 14:47:02 Heh, the "screen shot of the trauma of picking an ID name for this wiki" part was funny. 14:47:10 Must've been very traumatic indeed. 14:48:37 fizzie: Don't you have any FEELINGS? 14:48:40 The wiki was MOCKING HIM! 15:21:10 haha 15:21:28 well anyway I think combining a sine tone and a square one works quite weel 15:21:29 well* 15:21:32 * AnMaster tests 15:27:34 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:27:50 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:34:10 -!- jix has joined. 15:48:46 lost the game 15:49:44 -!- Azstal has joined. 15:51:20 * AnMaster prepares to properly record it, stopping stuff that can cause delays and such 15:56:02 ehird: can you not just stop doing that???! 15:56:13 jix: i lose the game regularly 15:56:18 #esoteric is a convenient tab. 15:56:20 jix, who cares anyway 16:01:25 -!- AnMaster has quit ("System reboot."). 16:01:28 i don't see what's so wrong about that game 16:02:00 oklopol: anmaster makes a point to say how much he doesn't care every time someone mentions it 16:02:11 http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28694 16:02:31 -!- Asztal has quit (Success). 16:05:58 ehird: many people do that; i'm not commenting the habit of repeatedly stating your opinions, i don't see why people have such strong opinions about the game 16:06:14 anmaster doesn't, really, though 16:06:47 for all X, he has an opinion on X, for a majority of X, he has a half-baked opinion on X (just like everyone else), but for the same majority he repeatedly states his half-baked opinion on x 16:06:57 most people tend to only repeatedly state their strong opinions. 16:14:33 -!- AnMaster has joined. 16:15:03 hiiii 16:15:09 bgpofkmgzxlgjmdrsk 16:15:15 *wrong channel 16:24:37 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 16:33:35 http://www.pageflip.hu/ oh god. 16:36:30 not bad, but it doesn't crease if I turn it sharply enough 16:36:35 *g* 16:36:57 Azstal: you can actually rip the pages off 16:36:58 >_< 16:37:06 yeah, I like that :D 16:37:13 so awwwwwwful 16:37:26 some of the pages are un-rippable though 16:37:35 yes 16:37:41 i've spent a few minutes trying to demolish it 16:48:19 finally, an *.aac 16:48:41 (checked with mp3 too, but that file was larger and even worse sound quality 16:48:42 ) 17:08:27 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:15:48 -!- metazilla has joined. 17:15:54 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:16:14 -!- moozilla has joined. 17:18:57 err 17:19:03 how can they be ripped off? 17:20:05 ? 17:20:07 oh 17:20:09 oklopol: drag them off 17:20:11 like... ripping IRL 17:20:13 note 17:20:15 some of them can't be 17:20:51 ah, doesn't work for cover. 17:20:55 ah not as in circumventing drm then 17:21:10 nope 17:21:12 er 17:21:17 ripping isn't "circumventing DRM" 17:21:20 true 17:21:24 related however 17:21:25 ripping is e.g. copying audio data from a cd to a computer 17:21:29 which is totally legal :-P 17:21:36 yes legal 17:21:42 well 17:21:48 depends on your interpretation of the dmca 17:21:51 when talking about a drm'd cd. 17:21:51 however these days that usually includes circumventing drm 17:21:53 ;P 17:21:53 Idea : Fractal darts. 17:21:56 not really 17:22:04 i've never circumvented any DRM once to rip a cd 17:22:05 10^n points for the nth level of recursion 17:22:07 k. afk making food 17:22:14 Slereah_: hah 17:22:37 I thought of that between thinking of bees and hats. 17:23:01 -!- jix has joined. 17:24:55 -!- megatron has quit (Connection timed out). 17:32:25 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:37:53 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:43:16 -!- Asztal^_^ has joined. 18:00:41 -!- Azstal has quit (Connection timed out). 18:01:22 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:04:13 -!- kt3k has joined. 18:04:57 heh 18:05:04 the wikipedians are discussing what they'd do if someone named a book Main Page 18:05:12 [[If someone announces that they are writing a book about Wikipedia titled Main Page, I suggest we indef hard-rangeblock his ISP until agrees to name it something else :-)]] 18:05:15 MUST DO IT 18:05:17 sheesh that's obvious 18:05:27 Main Page (book) 18:05:35 oerjan: and where does the disambig link go? 18:05:40 What about people searching Main Page in the search bar? 18:05:51 Main Page (disambiguation) of course 18:05:55 uh 18:05:58 hm... 18:06:01 oerjan: and where would you link to that 18:06:13 on the top of the main page? that's distracting clutter for, like, 1% of all traffic 18:06:15 heh, there is a slight problem 18:06:23 and also free advertising :D 18:06:56 :D 18:07:34 conclusion: someone do it. The resulting bureaucratic glob will destroy Wikipedia. 18:11:34 hm the idea of moving the Main Page to WP: at least seems reasonable 18:11:53 wp should bloody fix their bloody software 18:12:11 they have far more urgent problems than hypothetical books 18:12:18 if you search for C# it takes you to C 18:12:27 that's called a "bug" and they haven't fixed it in years 18:12:48 ouch 18:12:54 (so they need a disambig entry for C#, which itself is a disambig page, on the C page) 18:13:13 -!- kt3k has quit ("CHOCOA"). 18:13:47 (same with every other note) 18:14:01 well the use of # is a general html thing isn't it? not restricted to wp 18:14:15 sure, but what's html got to do with it? 18:14:49 they could have some escaping mechanism 18:14:56 and let the search box be aware of it 18:15:35 hm 18:16:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hi kipple. 18:16:49 why is main_page in article space anyway? 18:17:03 it might be enough to trap titles ending with #, i doubt wp uses empty anchor names 18:17:34 oklopol: tradition 18:17:35 so that you could have competing main_pages? 18:17:35 oklopol: history, and if they did e.g. Portal:Main all the bookmarks would break 18:17:50 oklopol: if they just redirected - then there's no way to put another article ther 18:17:58 so, no benefit for extra confusion essentially 18:18:29 i see, backwards-compatibility, the mother of all that is ugly. 18:18:30 also, it's not an "html thing" 18:18:32 it's a web thing. 18:18:37 whatev 18:18:47 oerjan: well, right now the problem is the title of the C# page is C-Sharp because they disallow C# 18:18:47 lament, err C# is non-trivial to handle, since the browser would probably treat it the same way as foo.html#anchor 18:18:48 oklopol: i think if you ran a site as big as wp you'd care about that too. 18:18:50 I guess 18:18:52 AnMaster: no 18:18:54 in the search box 18:18:58 ah hm true 18:18:58 C# will be sent escaped 18:18:58 AnMaster: no 18:19:03 they just fuck that up in the interm 18:19:05 *interim 18:19:05 AnMaster: i'm not talking about the name of the HTML page 18:19:11 AnMaster: i'm talking about the title of the article 18:19:18 AnMaster: WP started with the two being the same 18:19:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C# wouldn't work well however 18:19:23 AnMaster: no, it wouldn't 18:19:24 ehird: the other way around; if i was a person who would care about that, i might have a page as big as wp 18:19:26 but how many people hack the urls? 18:19:30 if i had, now, a page as big as wp 18:19:31 compared to people using the search box 18:19:39 i'd probably just close it down for the fuck of it. 18:19:41 AnMaster: the title of the article and the name of the html page are two different entities 18:19:48 hm true 18:19:49 oklopol: yeah, but, nobody would put you in charge of anything. 18:19:50 if they're the same, the system is badly designed 18:20:02 lament, well it used to be that way :P 18:20:06 not even a pancake. 18:20:17 what 18:20:20 AnMaster: right, exactly 18:20:21 'it used to be that way'? 18:20:24 WP started off badly designed 18:20:24 that doesn't erally make any sense 18:20:27 it still IS that way. 18:20:40 at least WP doesn't need camelcase now. 18:20:42 ehird: if people hack urls they should expect technical issues anyway 18:20:44 ehird: perhaps not, i don't see what that has to do with anything 18:21:05 oerjan: yes 18:21:13 well 18:21:15 i'm all for url-hacking 18:21:21 but... if you're url hacking, know how to escape shit, okay 18:22:12 the article for the note C# is 18:22:19 C♯_(musical_note) 18:22:38 would be interesting to see if something bad actually happened if wp or a related entity changed it's main page 18:22:39 well 18:22:40 but the disambig is not needed because there isn't any other C♯ 18:22:45 that probably happens every now and then 18:22:51 i wouldn't know 18:22:59 lament: well 18:23:10 several articles are like that 18:23:15 just because the disambig makes it easier to see in the page title 18:23:24 yeah 18:25:58 ehird: also why wouldn't anyone put me in charge, it's not like they knew i would just bring the thing down for fun if i could 18:26:41 oklopol: now they do 18:26:47 you just said it in a publicly logged channel 18:27:01 yeah, and someone is so gonna see that. 18:27:32 anyway, i probably wouldn't bring it down if i got money out of it; but i definitely would do a name change in the name of purity. 18:27:39 purity is worth killing. 18:29:04 *url change 18:40:35 -!- Asztal^_^ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:40:52 -!- Asztal^_^ has joined. 18:47:11 -!- lilja has joined. 19:13:16 lillllja 19:19:36 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 19:21:32 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:22:41 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:32:48 -!- asiekierka has joined. 19:32:52 hey 19:32:57 It was a while 19:32:59 Also 19:33:10 [<.] - a Self-modifying BF quine... i think 19:33:12 ^show 19:33:12 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source 19:33:23 ^def smbf_quine bf [<.] 19:33:24 Defined. 19:33:38 ^smbf_quine ].<[ 19:33:47 Oh 19:33:55 TT__TT 19:36:03 ^def smbf_quine bf [,.] 19:36:04 Defined. 19:36:10 ^smbf_quine [,.] 19:36:13 [anything] will never print out anything. 19:36:14 ^smbf_quine [,.] 19:36:16 OOH 19:36:25 ^def smbf_quine bf +>[<,.>] 19:36:25 Defined. 19:36:33 ^smbf_quine +>[<,.>] 19:36:38 OH 19:36:41 dear lord 19:36:48 ^def smbf_quine bf +[>,.<] 19:36:48 Defined. 19:36:55 ^smbf_quine +[>,.<] 19:36:55 +[>,.<] 19:37:05 Nope 19:37:12 SMBF should be implemented in fungot 19:37:13 asiekierka: what's the question there too... but it's in the gray zone. the black parts show the table? can you lisppaste input output code? 19:37:26 fungot: i don't know lisp 19:37:27 asiekierka: scheme's file system interface is sadly lacking.) 19:37:45 fungot: Lacking? And i don't know scheme, too! 19:37:46 asiekierka: http://www.wftv.com/ slideshow/ news/ technology/ fnord is great. 19:38:06 fungot: That link is scary. WolF TV, it may be... 19:38:07 asiekierka: i'm an east side type... 19:38:18 fungot: East side? So the east side doesn't know wolves? 19:38:37 ...uh? 19:38:52 Hello? 19:38:53 fungot: East side? So the east side doesn't know wolves? 19:38:58 Erkh. 19:39:00 fungot: aaa 19:39:04 Wait 19:39:06 did fungot just crash? 19:39:09 ^show 19:39:09 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source smbf_quine 19:39:13 *whew* 19:39:16 ^show source 19:39:16 (http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt)S 19:39:23 It goes into that ignore mode if you have talked to it too much. 19:39:33 wait 19:39:37 so underload is implemented now? 19:39:39 Yes. 19:39:47 ^help 19:39:48 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 19:39:56 Oh, yeah. 19:40:13 ^source 19:40:13 http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 19:42:38 AnMaster added that one; I think he keeps forgetting the URL. Although I did think about maybe using the Underload interp to do ^help too; no real need to have it as a built-in, except that it can't be redefined right now to something obscene. 19:43:03 ^def help ul (Test! :D)S 19:43:03 Defined. 19:43:05 ^help 19:43:05 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 19:43:11 ^show 19:43:12 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source smbf_quine help 19:43:15 ^show help 19:43:15 (Test! :D)S 19:43:52 ^def help ul (What are you looking for? Type ^help you idiot! ):::***S 19:43:52 Built-ins override all defined commands, but I don't exactly check for them in ^def. 19:43:52 Defined. 19:43:56 ^show help 19:43:57 (What are you looking for? Type ^help you idiot! ):::***S 19:44:02 Yay 19:44:18 ^def def bf +[] 19:44:18 Defined. 19:44:28 ^def help ul (What are you looking for? Type ^help you idiot! ):::***S 19:44:28 Defined. 19:44:32 I see 19:45:23 ^show 19:45:24 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source 19:45:26 Cleaned up a bit. 19:45:41 Heh 19:45:44 ^show choo 19:45:44 >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>] 19:45:48 ^show pow2 19:45:48 +2[[<+7[-<+7>]>[-<+<+>>]<[->+<]<-2.[-]<]+4[->+8<]>.[-]>>[-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>-8>+>[->+>+<2]+>>[<2->>[-]]<2[>+<-]>[-<+>]<4-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>+2<[-]]]]]]]]]]<[->+<]>+>[-<+>]>>]<3] 19:45:50 ^pow2 19:45:51 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 42949672 ... 19:46:04 I did that as a small BrainFuck exercise the other day. 19:47:09 ^show echo 19:47:10 >,[.>,]<[<]+32[.>] 19:47:18 ^echo I HATE THIS ECHO! 19:47:18 I HATE THIS ECHO! I HATE THIS ECHO! 19:47:31 ^def bf cat ,[.,] 19:47:32 Usage: ^def 19:47:38 ^def cat bf ,[.,] 19:47:38 Defined. 19:47:42 It's a reasonable echo. Compared to the lot sillier cho and choo commands. 19:47:43 ^cat Finally. :D 19:47:43 Finally. :D 19:48:54 ^cho cat 19:48:54 catatt 19:48:57 ^choo cat 19:48:57 cat at t 19:49:13 ^cho fungot 19:49:13 fungotungotngotgotott 19:49:18 Looks silly. 19:49:30 ^def talk ul (optbot: I want to talk with you, because this guy here, just above me, asked me to do it.)S 19:49:31 Defined. 19:49:31 asiekierka: yay 19:49:33 ^talk 19:49:33 optbot: I want to talk with you, because this guy here, just above me, asked me to do it. 19:49:33 fungot: spoon was based on BF 19:49:34 optbot: you might also read gasbichler's paper on it. 19:49:35 fungot: that's impressive. 19:49:35 optbot: you may now continue :) right on. 19:49:35 fungot: haha \x,x,y 19:49:36 optbot: maybe you should make them relative links and can delete messy and dangling links." :) 19:49:36 fungot: while the POSIX API is clean and nice 19:49:37 optbot: no- synthesys is a new scheme user. what was the one where im trying to prevent my hands from my workout. 19:49:37 fungot: *GASP*. 19:49:47 Yay. 19:49:54 THE ULTIMATE SPAMMING WEAPONARY... or is it? 19:50:03 optbot: 1984 19:50:03 KingOfKarlsruhe: where are you from, Slereah? 19:50:06 optbot: 1984 19:50:07 KingOfKarlsruhe: does it have a webpage? like sourceforge or something? 19:50:11 Hehe. 19:50:20 optbot: george orwell 19:50:20 KingOfKarlsruhe: i've seen them, all like 5 times though, so i think i'm okay 19:50:38 who's KingOfHarlsr...something? 19:51:52 How do you answer that sort of question, anyway? 19:54:27 IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH 19:54:56 ... 19:59:59 -!- Corun has joined. 20:00:51 -!- jix has joined. 20:24:41 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:29:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:39:27 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:45:42 fizzie, there? 20:45:51 From SOCK it's just R/W most of the time, from TOYS only S to clear the old code when ^reloading (so it might be good if S'ing to value 32 would actually clear those cells), and from SUBR only a C/R pair for ^code. 20:46:06 "so it might be good if S'ing to value 32 would actually clear those cells" <-- doesn't it? 20:46:23 (asked this before but if I got any response that time I missed it) 20:47:44 Yes, it does. 20:47:55 11:36:43 < fizzie> It might, I haven't checked at all. 20:47:55 11:36:45 < fizzie> Just a thought. 20:47:55 11:38:10 < fizzie> I guess you do that already in fungespace_set for any space. 20:48:32 well fungespace_set would return the cell in question to the free list I believe when you set to space... 20:49:05 Yes, I took a peek. 20:49:27 fizzie, oh and since you depend on STRN so much, be aware of that it uses unsigned char*/char* internally, mostly due to the name STRN. So you may loose precision. 20:49:43 of course STRN spec isn't clear if that is intended 20:49:51 Well, it's just the IRC messages I'm building with it, so that's all right. 20:49:53 clear on if* 20:50:22 (And the Underload stack is made out of strings, but that's the usual way too.) 20:50:50 fizzie, also you forgot to mention what you use SCKE for, at least you seem to load it 20:51:21 oh I guess resolving server 20:51:30 Yes, it's actually not really used right now. I need the H out of it to parse http:// URLs, but I haven't had time to write the HTTP client parts. 20:51:57 In fact the loader only accepts numeric IPs as the server and uses plain old I; didn't think I was going to need SCKE when I was writing that part. 20:53:14 generally STRN seems slightly suboptimal (and why on earth is the G so long?) 20:54:49 fizzie, um you said something about storing weird with STRN G? 20:55:00 that *may* have been changed a month or two ago 20:55:02 "functions G and P use deltas of 1,0,0" 20:55:43 or, hm maybe not 20:56:43 I don't remember what I've said. 20:57:09 hm ok 20:57:28 But I don't think I use G/P for things that are not zero-terminated strings that can consist of bytes just fine. 20:59:46 -!- lilja has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:01:12 hm interesting 21:01:32 fizzie, do you ever read with FILE R such that it will read past the end of the actual file? 21:02:07 Nno. Well, not intentionally. 21:02:37 The only file I read with R is the language model, and there I know the offsets and lengths and such. 21:03:05 I made a program to remove inconsistencies from my color matching input, and the new color matcher is better for it. 21:03:15 Using an extremely simple metric, my input was 40% inconsistent. 21:03:41 GregorR, what are you trying to do? 21:03:55 or rather, what are you doing 21:04:04 AnMaster: See http://codu.org/colormatch/ 21:04:51 GregorR, well I don't agree with it always 21:05:00 #FBCBCB 21:05:02 consider that one 21:05:20 #DE44BF is not nice with it 21:05:58 Uhhh, what? Those go together perfectly. 21:06:05 GregorR, matter of taste I guess 21:06:15 Of course :P 21:07:01 #1918D3 and #F6406B <-- horrible too 21:07:33 and it claims #1918D3 and #076E7F doesn't work together, they work much better than that one above that it suggested 21:07:40 This is purely heuristics, I'm making no guarantees, only that it's not terrible :P 21:07:59 #1918D3 #132BDD <-- random non match, quite good IMO 21:08:23 Too similar, maybe. 21:08:33 well depends on what you want 21:08:41 #1918D3 #EC2086 <-- random match, not nice at all 21:08:44 OH, yeah, there's a weird property of the resulting neural net that it always seems to dislike very similar colors. 21:08:58 GregorR: Did someone train it that way? 21:09:19 fizzie: I have no idea, I haven't looked at the input, only the neural net evolver has :P 21:09:50 I mean, I have this vague feeling that you maybe shouldn't choose clothing that has two different-but-quite-close colors. 21:10:04 I recall that being a rule, yeah. 21:10:29 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:13:33 GregorR, I think you can find matching ones using HSV 21:13:36 iirc I heard about that 21:17:18 It's easy to generate a matching color given an arbitrary color, it's much more difficult to determine whether two totally arbitrary colors match. 21:17:36 hm 21:18:04 GregorR, I certainly fail at that according to my mother ;P 21:20:12 Have you plotted any visualizations of the function computed by your net, anyway? I'd certainly like to see the shape, for example in some x=hue 1, y=hue 2, fixed saturation+lightness style plot. 21:21:04 hm 21:21:18 -!- testthingy has joined. 21:21:21 my test bot 21:21:24 %bf ++++[>++<-]. 21:21:24 Usage: %str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 21:21:26 wtf 21:21:31 fizzie, should that happen? 21:21:31 Oh, yes. 21:21:41 The version in the interwebs is slightly bad. 21:21:51 fizzie, can you please upload a new copy? 21:21:54 Adding the ^ul command broke the ^bf one. 21:21:56 Sure. 21:22:02 I was trying to profile using gprof 21:22:04 Although it's a "cp", not very uploadingy. 21:22:07 -!- testthingy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:22:10 ^source 21:22:10 http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 21:22:14 Just a moment. 21:22:38 Okay, that file should now be updated. 21:23:42 on the other hand... I need to mess to find out why no profiling stuff was generated at all 21:28:38 fizzie, %show didn't work in /msg 21:28:41 hm 21:28:50 oh wait 21:29:17 Should. 21:29:42 In fact, everything should work in a query pretty much just like on channel, since it's handled by the same code. 21:29:53 works now 21:29:58 just empty output 21:29:59 first time 21:30:03 Ah. 21:30:27 fungot: How do you feel about the fact that you have sort-of siblings running around? 21:30:27 fizzie: make it pink"." atom) in scheme? 21:30:41 Strange sentiments. 21:31:14 hm most "own time" was in execute_instruction 21:31:16 pretty strange 21:31:36 since that just implements core instructions, except k y i and o 21:31:39 which are elsewhere 21:31:53 so what time consuming ones are there in there 21:31:59 lots of space? 21:32:20 Well, there certainly is lots of space in the program. 21:32:46 fizzie, does the program wrap often? 21:32:49 Never. 21:33:11 strange 21:33:19 The brainfuck interpreter is also pretty much core instructions only, and that's one of the few things that actually do time-consuming things. 21:33:37 fizzie, well... hrrm 21:34:06 oh I check if vector is cardinal before I check if it is in range 21:35:08 fizzie, got a good speed test for it? So I can see if any changes I make actually make a difference 21:35:25 since it is mostly IO bound this is kind of hard 21:35:29 if you see what I mean 21:37:38 Well, you can run interesting brainfuck or underload programs; those are probably the only things that care about speedups, anyway. 21:37:52 fizzie, ah so can I get the free standing versions of those? 21:38:08 Well, of the Underload interp there's the underload.b98. 21:38:17 right 21:38:23 the bf one isn't freestanding? 21:39:00 No, since I coded it directly in fungot. Although you can pretty much use fungot as a freestanding implementation if you just have it connect to a listening netcat which pipes programs at it. 21:39:00 fizzie: our government works? :) the original schemes had that in years 21:39:18 hm true 21:40:33 well it seems to help with about 5 miliseconds for mycology :D 21:40:37 err 21:40:38 wait 21:40:44 centiseconds 21:40:45 I guess 21:41:14 from average 0m0.199s to 0m0.189s 21:41:17 so a bit more 21:41:50 ^show 21:41:51 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source bf cat talk 21:41:55 ^show rot13 21:41:55 ,[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+14<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>>+5[<-5>-]<2-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+ 21:41:58 bah too long 21:42:01 ^show fib 21:42:02 >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][] 21:42:08 hm 21:42:09 ^fib 21:42:10 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ... 21:42:24 It also takes some fraction of seconds to execute, I think. 21:45:45 ^fib 21:45:45 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ... 21:46:11 Well, it's not exactly very slow. But still. 21:46:18 fizzie, got a slow but non-infinite underload program around? 21:46:32 ^show 21:46:33 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source bf cat talk 21:46:36 ^show talk 21:46:36 (optbot: I want to talk with you, because this guy here, just above me, asked me to do it.)S 21:46:37 fungot: i'm too lazy to check this myself, and don't remember, what's pebble written in? i recall it was tcl, but might be just the fact it itself is basically tcl. 21:46:37 optbot: are there any levels to download for me, 21:46:38 fungot: !wumpus s 21:46:38 optbot: what is maclisp? i realized it actually is 21:46:38 fungot: yeah! :D 21:46:39 optbot: my question is that? :) i've played with ruby a little.) an earlier version of cliki, but search is not finding the linkedlist removefirst() method. this is exemplified by ( ( opcode 1000) argument) 21:46:40 fungot: There are a bunch of BF compilers that compile BF into C. 21:46:40 optbot: the particular problem is that it? 21:46:40 fungot: its so good :O 21:46:41 ugh 21:46:49 As far as BrainFuck programs go, one of the shorter rot13s was pretty slow. 21:47:03 I don't know very many Underload programs, and they rarely seem to terminate. 21:47:06 ^show bf 21:47:12 ?? 21:47:15 Actually the 99 bottles of beer program is pretty slow. 21:47:17 it was listed there 21:47:25 'bf' is an empty program, it's been there for a while. 21:48:26 ^def bf ul Sorry, ^bf is just a builtin. 21:48:26 Defined. 21:48:29 fizzie, hm seems the underload interpreter don't like newlines 21:48:50 Yes, I just "tr \n *"d the program or something. 21:48:59 It interprets newline as "end of program". 21:49:29 AnMaster: 21:49:35 all non-command chars are invalid in underload 21:49:37 including whitespace. 21:49:41 if you want to do multiple lines 21:49:42 do 21:49:43 aaaaaaa( 21:49:45 )!bbbbbbbb 21:49:47 ehird: He means newlines inside (). 21:49:50 ah. 21:50:00 ehird: The standalone interpreter reads just a single line and assumes that's the whole program. 21:50:01 yes I meant http://koti.mbnet.fi/~yiap/programs/underload/99.ul 21:50:18 bad insn. 21:50:18 hm 21:50:23 btw GregorR 21:50:27 where? 21:50:27 Well, that one shouldn't happen. 21:50:34 I've successfully ran it before. 21:50:59 GregorR: can you make a webservicey thing out of that color matcher? like, make it output text/plain, with two space seperated values that go together 21:51:08 '000000 FFFFFF' 21:51:11 totally random that go together 21:51:15 because i would use that in annoying ways 21:51:17 and it would be fun. 21:51:28 http://rafb.net/p/oMNnth53.html 21:52:06 fizzie, ^ 21:52:20 did tr to delete newlines 21:52:52 ^source 21:52:53 http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 21:53:17 AnMaster: why don't you bookmark that page? 21:53:23 ehird, good question 21:53:27 fis@eris:~/src/bef$ time (tr '\n' + < 99.ul; echo) | ~/inst/cfunge/cfunge/build/cfunge underload.b98 > /dev/null 21:53:30 real 0m6.300s 21:53:33 Works for me. 21:53:34 AnMaster: Or use Firefox 3 and type 'fungot' to get straight to it. 21:53:35 ehird: i wonder whether anyone would consider looking at the history, though). :) i'm trying to 21:53:45 fizzie, odd 21:53:53 That 99.ul was the original. 21:54:03 fizzie: eris? How unoriginal, man. 21:54:10 fizzie, I just wgeted http://zem.fi/~fis/underload.b98.txt and tested with that 21:54:22 didn't help 21:54:55 huh 21:55:08 it works now... 21:55:28 fizzie, I did tr -d '\n' which just removes the newline, instead of replacing it with a + 21:55:30 that didn't work 21:55:33 which is strange 21:55:53 ehird: I used to have a different naming scheme, but that one ran out of extensibility. 21:56:21 fizzie: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1178 21:56:21 :-P 21:56:37 Yes, I've read that. 21:56:49 [[ Computers also have to be able to distinguish between themselves. 21:56:50 Thus, when sending mail to a colleague at another computer, you might 21:56:50 use the command "mail libes@goon".]] 21:56:53 It'd help if it were a little more relevant. 21:56:57 Fortunately I won't be running out of mythological characters any time soon. 21:57:17 I've got iris, eris, tartarus, thalia, antheia, dionysus, nyx, momus, charon, styx and hermes here now. 21:57:18 ah yes my change speeds it up 21:57:20 * AnMaster pushes 21:57:31 Can't forget aphrodite :) 21:57:31 fizzie: iris herpes? 21:57:32 around 15 ms 21:57:32 Ouch. 21:57:35 err 21:57:38 15 cs 21:57:41 centi-seconds 21:57:42 :) 21:58:28 ehird: I used to have a different naming scheme, but that one ran out of extensibility. <-- naming scheme for what? 21:58:33 AnMaster: computers. 21:58:36 ah 21:58:41 % hostname 21:58:41 bournemouth 21:58:46 (From Look Around You, series 2.) 21:58:48 oh I just think of random names 21:58:52 (Although series 1 is better.) 21:59:04 For the uninitiated: 21:59:16 Hmm. 21:59:22 It does not appear to be on the tube of you. 21:59:24 I have tux (highly unoriginal) and phoenix (not very original, but fitting for the computer, since it was rescued from being recycled) 21:59:29 Stupid copyright, and it's copyright. 21:59:33 *its 21:59:47 other look like: openbsd.router.lan 21:59:48 or whatever 22:00:48 ehird, also isn't "bournemouth" a city? (with upper case B of course) 22:00:54 yes 22:01:06 Haha, I'm asking about stuff in #swig (Semantic Web Interest Group) and getting typo-filled responses from Tim Berners-Lee: 22:01:11 ehird, it was never really agree on -- it was sort fo experimentl. 22:01:24 hppt:\www.gogel.cmo 22:01:26 heheh 22:01:58 True story: In primary school we were getting a highly educational (~) lesson about HOW TO USE THE INTERWEBS 22:02:03 and the teacher put in 22:02:09 htp:\\www.google.com 22:02:13 (To my memory. Something like that.) 22:02:18 haha 22:02:20 The error page came up and she said it was... something like 22:02:26 "the computer is having trouble finding it so we have to wait" 22:02:41 So i piped up and told her she'd typed it wrong and she sternly shouted at me for questioning a teacher. :-D 22:02:50 and then? 22:02:59 Then she carried on. 22:03:06 I don't think she ever got the page to load. 22:03:53 also why the heck would correcting the teacher be that bad? If you manages to do it in a discrete way. 22:04:05 and asks it like a question 22:04:37 not "you are wrong" but more like "are you really sure .../could you explain the difference between [right way] and [wrong way]" 22:04:38 Yeah, well, it wasn't a very good teacher. 22:07:07 [[ In reality, names are just arbitrary 22:07:07 tags. You cannot tell what a person does for a living, what 22:07:07 their hobbies are, and so on. 22:07:08 ]] 22:07:09 Pfft. 22:07:18 My name is Programmer. 22:07:22 I take great offense to that. 22:07:27 -!- kar8nga has joined. 22:08:11 heh 22:08:18 ehird, where is that quote from 22:08:23 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1178 22:08:27 and what is that quote syntax. It is quite odd 22:08:37 I've used it for ages. 22:08:43 [[]] is a blockquote. 22:08:47 more than usually recently 22:08:52 ehird, in what markup language? 22:08:56 Because I'm quoting things more than usual? :P 22:08:59 AnMaster: Adhocehirdup. 22:09:12 ah 22:09:24 I mean, the alternative is something like: 22:09:30 " By now you may be saying to yourself, "This is all very 22:09:31 silly...people who have to know how to spell a name will learn 22:09:31 it and that's that." While it is true that some people will 22:09:31 learn the spelling, it will eventually cause problems 22:09:31 somewhere." 22:09:36 which looks silly due to the extra indent cruft 22:09:54 ehird, the indent isn't aligned on your original paste either 22:09:59 too few spaces on the first line 22:10:32 Yeah, because I copied from the middle of a line onwards. 22:10:41 mhm 22:11:19 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 22:13:19 optbot: integer? 22:13:19 KingOfKarlsruhe: my initial idea was a deque, someone in here said it could be done with just a queue 22:13:35 That's not an integer. 22:13:37 fizzie, apart from that one I can't see any obviously slow place in cfunge. Some, like hash library is kind of slow, but I tested various other hash libraries and hash functions and they aren't faster really (about same speed). 22:14:35 was fizzie having speed problems with cfunge? 22:14:39 Oh the hilarious irony 22:14:52 ehird, no he wasn't 22:14:58 I was just trying to make it even faster 22:15:06 Not really, I think this is more of a case of spontaneous combust^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hoptimization, 22:15:26 fizzie: I'm surprised AnMaster ever writes anything other than an optimization.. 22:15:30 possibly someone could develop a better hash function, but I'm certainly not skilled enough to do that, I tested several (crc, one-at-a-time, murmur and several more) 22:15:42 ehird, what about efunge? I'm still working on it 22:15:45 and it is much slower 22:15:50 and I don't plan to make it fast 22:15:56 it will be a lot more feature rich instead 22:15:58 I meant regarding cfunge. 22:16:21 also, AnMaster 22:16:21 well cfunge is meant to be fast. Just compare with RC/Funge. Ask fizzie about which he thinks is best 22:16:22 you do 22:16:31 fungespace[hash([x,y])] right? 22:16:57 It "sounds" slower, but I think fungespace[x][y] (where fungespace[x] is allocated only when first used) might actually be faster, due to never involvinga hash function 22:16:57 ehird, basically, except I use a hash library for it. So it is ght_lookup 22:17:08 you could try it 22:17:09 hm 22:17:28 There's a lot of fungespace storage variants one could try; I hoped to experiment a bit along those lines some day. 22:17:55 ehird, well I will, however x and y need to be sparse, since I need to be able to store sparsly within signed 2^64 for both x and y 22:18:06 but yes you mean a hash library for each 22:18:15 yeah 22:18:23 y then x, or x then y I wonder 22:18:28 need to test both 22:18:40 I think GLfunge had some sort of "fungespace in the x, y \in [0, 1023] range is stored in a static block, since that's what is asked for most often" opti- or pessimization; never benchmarked it, since I got kind-of sidetracked. 22:18:49 AnMaster: I'd go for y then x. 22:18:54 Hmm. 22:18:55 Well. 22:18:59 Funge programs are a lot taller than they are wide. 22:19:03 usually yes 22:19:03 So yeah, y then x. 22:19:08 Would seem reasonable. 22:19:30 someone should try using sqlite as backend :D 22:19:46 horribly slow I bet 22:19:51 (for funge space) 22:19:59 (it is fast for what it is actually meant for) 22:20:07 ouch. 22:20:09 A fungot-optimized interpreter could cheat a lot for funge-space storage, since the usage is quite structured. Instruction fetches are one thing, but all of the g/p action occurs in few well-defined places. 22:20:10 fizzie: i take it? :) as well, but it will only add numbers up to 30 22:20:29 fizzie, hah, well I want to be generic 22:20:32 as far as I can tell the only non-test befunge program regularly run is fungot 22:20:32 ehird: the video of him at mit was priceless. fnord was soegaard's idea. must be that 22:20:46 him=gene ray? 22:22:34 ehird, anyway one major issue is that by definition funge is heavy on the funge space 22:22:36 Paul Graham, I think. The conversation is a bit muddled around that point. 22:22:52 fizzie: same person :p 22:22:53 I mean the hash function got called 800 000 times for a 10 second fungot run 22:22:53 AnMaster: it might do fnord by mistake ( extra " 0" and ( down-from n ( 0) 22:22:58 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 22:23:20 (actually 799804) 22:23:29 AnMaster: Make it record the maximum fungespace min/max bounds it acceesses. 22:23:35 fizzie's idea of a large region being static sounds like a good one. 22:23:42 It seems it'd speed up most programs immensely. 22:23:52 ehird, well hm have you tried? 22:23:57 fizzie said he hadn't 22:24:06 He didn't benchmark it but he did implement it. 22:24:12 indeed 22:24:15 AnMaster: I assume your fungespace access function is inlined? 22:24:22 (Well, it sure better be.) 22:24:47 ehird, the compiler should do that yes, but I was using a -fno-inline build to get correct count for profiling 22:25:04 if everything is inlined the gprof data is mostly useless 22:25:17 AnMaster: Well, my suggestion is, do some bounds profiling, then make a pretty-large static array and then in your fungespace access, 22:25:26 just check if they're in the bounds and use the static array for it 22:25:30 otherwise do the hashing junk 22:26:25 lets see how much memory if we go with fizzie' example values 8 * 1023 * 1023... about 8176 kb 22:26:40 AnMaster: memory is cheap.. 22:26:52 well yeah 22:26:54 I have a feeling this will speed up most programs a lot - no hashing, nothing, just a simple [x][y] access 22:27:10 so I think the memory used is pretty insignificant for the most part 22:27:12 ehird, it is about as much memory as cfunge use at most during mycology on a 32-bit build 22:27:16 AnMaster: i'd do profiling, though 22:27:17 err a bit more than that 22:27:21 ehird, indeed 22:27:28 see the max and minimum bounds that fungot, mycology accses 22:27:29 ehird: sarahbot later tell sarahbot goodnight. 22:27:32 anyway I was just checking if the memory usage was sane 22:27:34 pick a reasonable value in those 22:27:37 and...yeah. 22:27:44 Power of two bounds are nice for the (x & ~0x3ff != 0) style bounds-checking. 22:27:49 fizzie: Ah, yes. 22:27:52 I mean considering it is 2D it grows quite quickly 22:27:55 AnMaster: You will note that I am helping you with optimizations. 22:27:59 The world will now end 22:28:09 ehird, yes, I have been wondering about that too 22:28:36 presumably you have some nasty idea behind it. And this is really furthering what you want 22:28:40 ;P 22:28:46 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 22:28:50 As far as fungot is concerned, the parts of funge-space it's interested in are the actual program (instruction fetches) and rows 0..10 for data storage. But that's very fungot-specific. 22:28:51 fizzie: i think it's a good virtual machine. 22:28:55 -!- Corun_ has joined. 22:29:15 fizzie, and well I want good performance for mycology and life.bf too at least 22:29:22 AnMaster: Yes, I'm subtly nudging you towards an optimization that will actually permanently corrupt your computer's memory. 22:29:35 ehird, haha 22:31:58 anyway a 32-bit funge is much faster, since it means smaller data to calculate hashes on, better cache locality (at least on this sempron with a small (128 kb) cache) 22:32:07 and so on 22:32:14 So why are you running it at 64-bit? 22:32:16 Or am I misunderstanding :P 22:32:28 ehird, I'm not here, but I do support 64-bit funge 22:32:32 by a compile time option 22:32:32 Also... 22:32:37 If you do the static thing, less hash calculations 22:32:37 :-P 22:32:41 ehird, true 22:32:53 AnMaster: do you have a probing hash or a linked list hash? 22:33:10 ehird, iirc it is linked list. 22:33:23 I have a feeling probing might be faster, foo++, arr[foo] "seems" faster than foo = foo->next, foo 22:33:23 * AnMaster checks 22:33:32 (with foo = arr[hash] at the start ofc.) 22:34:15 ehird, each entry seems to have a linked list associated with it yeah 22:34:33 I'd reccomend the static thing, and the probe thing, in that order. 22:34:41 (The probe will be largely irrelevant with the static, I think.) 22:35:13 -!- olsner has joined. 22:35:16 As far as probing is considered, just linear probing might not be the best bet; it usually isn't. 22:35:25 which type of probing, wikipedia mentions linear probing and quadratic probing 22:35:26 True. 22:35:36 AnMaster: Well, according to fizzie, quadratic probing :p 22:35:42 I did quadratic probing 22:35:45 when I made my hashtable 22:35:46 i think 22:35:48 also I seen some hash tables that use a second hash table in each bucked 22:35:51 bucket* 22:35:56 then a linked list 22:36:05 ew. 22:36:11 but yeah go for quadratic probing 22:36:14 then static :-P 22:36:59 -!- uoris_ has joined. 22:37:02 I did double hashing (read: the probe increment computed from a second hashing function) for my closed hash table; it did a bit better than quadratic probing, but I never benchmarked whether that advantage was eaten by the hashing overhead. 22:37:16 fizzie: I'd say the overhead is more there, yes 22:37:20 I'd definitely go for quadratic. 22:37:28 AnMaster: and that should only take like 5 minutes to add 22:37:35 It's not very possible to say anything for certain; depends on the load factor and all. 22:37:45 -!- Slereah has joined. 22:40:24 -!- AnMaster has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:40:25 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:40:26 -!- jix has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:40:26 -!- uoris has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:40:27 -!- Dewi has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:40:38 -!- AnMaster has joined. 22:40:38 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 22:41:59 -!- Dewi has joined. 22:42:03 ehird, http://rafb.net/p/oI6jge96.html 22:42:09 not sure if you/me missed anything 22:42:29 ehird: ew. 22:42:29 [21:36] ehird: but yeah go for quadratic probing 22:42:30 [21:36] ehird: then static :-P 22:42:33 fizzie: I did double hashing (read: the probe increment computed from a second hashing function) for my closed hash table; it did a bit better than quadratic probing, but I never benchmarked whether that advantage was eaten by the hashing overhead. 22:42:34 [21:37] ehird: fizzie: I'd say the overhead is more there, yes 22:42:34 [21:37] ehird: I'd definitely go for quadratic. 22:42:36 [21:37] ehird: AnMaster: and that should only take like 5 minutes to add 22:42:38 [21:37] fizzie: It's not very possible to say anything for certain; depends on the load factor and all. 22:43:38 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:44:11 right 22:44:18 ehird, what about the other stuff I mentioned? 22:44:41 Heh, that first pasted line (without timestamping) was fun. 22:44:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_addressing this is just probing 22:44:56 yes 22:44:56 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuckoo_hashing is hmm. 22:45:03 -!- jix has joined. 22:45:05 ehird, it is odd yes 22:45:49 -!- uoris has joined. 22:45:59 I'd just do linear probing and see the speedup, then refine 22:46:59 With linear probing you probably want to keep the table load factor within some sensible values. I understand it gets slow fast when the table is full enough, even with a good hash function. 22:48:13 err 22:48:14 i meant quadratic 22:49:13 Well, obviously with quadratic probing too, except with a different definition for "sensible". 22:49:35 fizzie: Still, the point is, if there IS a speedup, you can continue 22:50:02 ehird, that would probably depend on the funge program 22:50:12 AnMaster: Less talking, more coding, I say :-P 22:50:34 ehird, well I'm all for writing roadmaps and design plans before I start coding :P 22:50:46 and thinking things through properly 22:50:48 AnMaster: In the time we've talked you could have profiled the quadratic probing approach. 22:51:10 And have actual results instead of the "I think" and "perhaps" we're feedbacking... 22:51:14 ehird, not so easy with the current hash library. And remember it is C, not python or such 22:51:28 and I will start coding on it tomorrow I said 22:51:36 AnMaster: Here I remember you bragging about how abstracted your fungespace was? 22:51:43 ehird, it is 22:51:50 It's a 5 minute change to any hashtable library i've ever seen 22:52:09 ehird, it is just that the internals of the hash library isn't that easy. But replacing with another hash library would be quick 22:52:14 Incidentally, I tried asking the bot what he thinks of the whole idea: 22:52:16 23:51:16 fungot: What do you suggest? 22:52:16 23:51:16 fizzie: imho it is ugly. 22:52:16 23:51:27 fungot: what. 22:52:19 23:51:27 fizzie: and smells good? :) 22:52:24 hehe 22:56:31 -!- uoris has quit (Connection timed out). 22:58:59 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:02:24 AnMaster: Link to the cfunge head as some sort of archive? 23:02:30 Gonna write a proby thingy. 23:02:31 Maybe. 23:03:44 a sec 23:04:10 -!- kar8nga has joined. 23:04:13 http://bzr.kuonet.org/cfunge/trunk/files 23:04:20 ehird, iirc there was some export function there 23:04:39 Not that I can see. 23:04:42 if not I can upload a tarball, but I'm out for the evening 23:04:45 after that 23:04:56 I'll just install bzr. 23:05:12 AnMaster: 1.6.1 new enough? 23:05:38 Omploaded 'cfunge_r460.tar.bz2' to http://omploader.org/vdmpl 23:05:46 afk 23:05:49 Oh, okay. 23:05:50 Bye. 23:06:12 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 23:08:13 Ew. 23:08:16 This hash table is long and ugly. 23:09:36 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 23:13:01 ehird, well it is easy to replace, but it's speed is quite ok 23:13:11 I checked with several other ones 23:13:12 AnMaster: I thought you were afk. 23:13:18 ehird, I went back temp 23:13:24 ehird, "family evening thing" 23:13:27 Welcome back :P 23:13:28 so I'm mostly afk 23:13:32 * AnMaster leaves again 23:13:37 bye. 23:16:07 AnMaster: Do you know what the oldest/newest stuff is for...? 23:16:12 Considering trashing it. 23:20:41 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 23:23:22 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:32:46 -!- ab5tract has joined. 23:34:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:35:03 ehird, what lines? 23:35:08 * AnMaster just got back 23:35:10 just the fields - ght_hash_entry_t *p_oldest; /* The entry inserted the earliest. */ 23:35:10 ght_hash_entry_t *p_newest; /* The entry inserted the latest. */ 23:35:15 and after this time I'm heading to bed 23:35:16 i don't actually know why you would need that 23:35:19 kipple, now that's been a while 23:35:28 oerjan: kipple? 23:35:32 a guy ,right? 23:35:32 in the topic 23:35:34 and a language 23:35:35 ah 23:35:38 yes 23:35:41 ehird, I think it is used for an alternative to move often accessed entries to the start or something like that 23:35:42 a norwegian iirc 23:35:57 it doesn't either speed up or speed down in my tests 23:36:23 oerjan: last kipple message: 23:36:26 06.08.12:15:17:38 poor egobot. He probably listened too much to GregorR's music 23:36:29 2006 23:36:35 AnMaster: i'll leave it in 23:36:45 ehird, remember I didn't write the library, just found it to have quite good performance when comparing with other hash libraries. 23:36:56 and afterwards I special cased the code 23:37:00 to avoid some pointers 23:37:04 like for a fixed data type 23:37:32 instead of void* and a size_t 23:37:54 and removing other stuff I don't need 23:37:59 kay 23:38:04 (those things certainly helped quite a bit) 23:38:27 ehird, the mempool I can answer on, but it should be fairly simple, and easy to understand 23:38:30 egobot's, now that's been a while 23:38:39 AnMaster: well, if you want to stay a bit i probably have more questions ;-) 23:38:40 now to quote those from .fi: 23:38:40 -> 23:38:41 s/'s// 23:38:41 but i'll hack on 23:38:43 ah, bye 23:39:00 me->location = bed; 23:39:01 ;P 23:40:15 http://xkcd.com/490/ 23:54:22 -!- lilja has joined. 23:58:41 -!- M0ny has quit ("Hum... Hum..."). 2008-10-29: 00:01:08 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 00:06:18 fungot quoted me some egobot too: 23:54:52 fizzie: 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf8,16,32,64 glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda 00:06:30 That's a nice list for me to implement in Befunge. 00:07:09 ^def test ul S 00:07:10 Defined. 00:07:17 ^test hm? 00:07:17 ...out of stack! 00:07:24 bah 00:07:28 No such thing as input, there. 00:07:39 Although I guess I could quite easily push it on stack at the beginning. 00:09:34 http://codu.org/colormatch/ // IT RULEZES 00:09:36 Somebody digg it 00:09:37 :P 00:14:14 hurrr 00:14:43 Hurr, hrrm? 00:14:52 hurrurr 00:15:14 oh, the hurrurr 00:15:36 mm-hmm 00:15:39 ^ul (h)S((urr)S:^):^ 00:15:39 hurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrur ...too much output! 00:15:47 oerjan: go luuk its bettar! :P 00:16:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hmm. 00:16:35 optbot! 00:16:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | well I'm anti tango if it doesn't build on x86_64. 00:16:39 optbot! 00:16:40 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I hard-coded Mario and Zelda themes. 00:20:05 hi GregorR 00:20:28 HI EHIRD GO 2 COLOR MATCHER 00:20:34 ^show 00:20:34 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source bf cat talk test 00:20:40 GregorR: i did, as i said, add a random button to color 1 00:20:42 then write a webservice 00:20:48 that gives you a random color, and a random matching colour 00:20:53 (text/plain, just seperate them by a space) 00:20:55 because 00:20:56 i will use it 00:20:57 in terrible ways 00:21:04 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 00:21:19 i promise i won't abuse your server too much 00:21:20 :-P 00:21:21 ^def talk ul (opt)(bot: I want to talk with you, because this guy here, just above me, asked me to do it.)SS 00:21:21 Defined. 00:21:21 That would involve implementing a neural network yet again, in $YOUR_FAVORITE_WEB_LANGUAGE :P 00:21:26 what 00:21:28 no it wouldn't 00:21:31 eh wait 00:21:37 ^def talk ul (opt)(bot: I want to talk with you, because this guy here, just above me, asked me to do it.)~SS 00:21:37 Defined. 00:21:40 GregorR: ah, it's in javascript? 00:21:46 ehird: Yeah. 00:21:54 GregorR: i could just nab that then 00:22:02 GregorR: but 00:22:05 there IS server side javascript 00:22:06 XD 00:22:24 GregorR: anyway, add the "random color 1" idea 00:22:27 ehird: I could make a JavaScript library you can include remotely that'll make your page a random color :P 00:22:29 probably make it generate a random matching color at the same time 00:22:33 Sure, I can do that easy. 00:22:35 yay 00:22:45 GregorR: then make it generate a colour scheme of length N :-P 00:22:55 -!- Asztal has joined. 00:23:14 ehird: That's of complexity n factorial :P 00:23:23 GregorR: and so is your butt, but do i care? 00:23:24 No. 00:23:32 also 00:23:35 ... 00:23:38 what is the maximum complexity yoru script could reasonably do? 00:23:39 :-P 00:24:47 fungot: maximize complexity. 00:24:47 ab5tract: your claim is quite logical. i'll think you're a bit dyslexic? i mean, it might not be 00:25:15 you and me sure got a thing going, don't we fungot 00:25:15 ab5tract: and it's self-modifying techniques i consider pretty original i think 00:25:23 true dat 00:31:32 -!- metazilla has quit ("- nbs-irc 2.37 - www.nbs-irc.net -"). 00:38:33 GregorR: 00:38:55 ehird: I have no answer. 00:39:18 GregorR: Foo bar baz. 00:39:32 -!- Asztal^_^ has quit (Success). 00:42:50 GregorR: it would be nice if you showed the actual colors, not just their rgb values 00:43:53 oerjan: Uhhh, it DOES show their actual colors. 00:43:56 In a big fancy box. 00:44:01 oerjan uses lynx 00:44:02 duh 00:44:12 lynx... 00:44:13 with javascript 00:44:16 IE 7, actually, which some here may consider worse :D 00:44:35 Substantially worse. 00:44:39 Doesn't work in Konqueror it turns out. 00:44:43 I'm making some fixes anyway. 00:45:01 GregorR: jquery 00:45:02 biotch 00:45:43 ? 00:45:49 jquery.com 00:45:50 use it 00:45:51 :-P 00:46:53 -!- lilja has quit ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'"). 00:47:40 One of those bloated, useless JS libs? 00:47:42 Nooooo thank you. 00:47:46 bloated? 00:47:51 it's tiny, and always has been the tiniest 00:48:10 also, it's not useless, it's quite functional (not as in the usable sense, but in the paradigm sense) 00:48:18 sure, the site is all corporate but that's recent crap 00:48:29 also, lets you use CSS3/XPath selectors 00:48:31 trivially 00:48:41 it really is nice. 00:49:26 GregorR: also, the main developer is the main javascripty guy at mozilla 00:50:07 (hmm, "JavaScript Evangelist" apparently... whatever the fuck that means...) 00:52:34 Apparently using innerHTML on a table only works in Firefox >_> 00:53:02 innerHTML barely ever works :p 00:54:19 jquery++, ehird++ 00:54:44 ab5tract = GregorR; 00:54:48 ouch, that must be painful 00:55:17 * ab5tract is immutable 00:55:20 sorry buddy :P 00:55:32 ab5tract: as far as i know, js has no immutable variables 00:55:33 so tough shit 00:56:06 then i don't fit the paradigm x) 00:57:30 ab5tract: REBEL 00:57:35 hurr 00:58:39 hows the funge ide coming 00:58:50 ehird: It can now generate two colors. I also put it in a .js file so it can be included remotely. 00:59:07 ab5tract: Not. GregorR: You are a baby. You have been eaten by a gruebaby 00:59:17 In future, please baby. 01:00:21 GregorR: where does it get the data? 01:00:35 ehird: Which data? 01:00:40 aha 01:00:40 var masterNN = new NeuralNet(3, [18, 4, 1], [-412.6361755614, 278.9842142232, -20.5600215938, -39.8960037087, 154.9130185798, -159.9429904879, 729.2216090158, 982.9458995752, 143.5533742592, 25.5308027322, -206.5386629423, -6.8355913173, -283.1128834544, 369.9597631534, 412.1520971465, 100.1539743296, -563.2459335712, -191.8307140707, -264.4321767135, 374.5932132645, 49.1988457295, 213.6956148766, -61.9765634350, 190.5191290147, 23.3574377357, 668.4313751847, 01:00:51 Oh, yeah, it just has the "correct" neural net inbuilt. 01:00:52 GregorR: pretty small neural net 01:00:58 hmm 01:01:00 18 inputs, 4 inner nodes. 01:01:24 GregorR: So if it was generating an N-length colour scheme, what is the max reasonable size of n? 01:01:37 It's hard to say. 01:01:41 Actually, I'll code up that function. 01:01:44 Sounds like fun. 01:01:48 Yay. 01:02:03 GregorR: I'm thinking, though, that it'll need to be more complex for my idea (which would also involve e.g. picking text colours) 01:02:20 because... colours that go together for the current model don't work as foreground/background 01:02:36 ehird: Foreground needs to be higher saturation than background probably. 01:02:49 yea 01:03:13 ehird: But it provides you the saturation in the complicated internal format it uses. It gives you [R, G, B, H, S, V, L, a, b] 01:03:32 Yeah, but I want the saturation to be determined by the neural net :D 01:04:52 Uhhhh? 01:04:53 Wha? 01:05:05 GregorR: Green. 01:05:15 *brain explodes* 01:05:29 GregorR: Just like your face pepper salt. 01:05:36 heh. GregorR nice work there man 01:07:29 it could take the match and set the more saturated color to the foreground text 01:07:44 but the difference isn't enough 01:07:47 most of the time 01:08:24 hmmm... collect the sequence of all the matches then pick the most saturated then? 01:08:45 through the neural network of course 01:09:12 yea. 01:09:13 most saturated * aesthetic_ratio 01:10:13 bye 01:11:37 peace out 01:17:21 ehird: OK, look at it now :) 01:18:04 GregorR: swtjc 01:18:04 Unfortunately, I don't know how to change a page's link colors from JS ... 01:18:12 ... swtjc ...? 01:19:31 swxxtjxxcx 01:19:53 I see. 01:20:19 :o 01:20:24 that's nasty stuff 01:20:53 well, i slept all day, back to sleep again, have all the fun your conscience allows you to have -> 01:21:46 as opposed to pxxpjxxcx ;) 01:22:05 GregorR: and how is that O(n!)? it's O(n^2) it could be O(n^2) if there are enough matching colors 01:22:25 i mean 01:22:26 oklopol: For every n it generates it needs to test it against ALL of the previous ns. 01:22:47 Oh, I guess that's n^2 isn't it :P 01:22:51 GregorR: yes, but that sounds more like n^2 01:23:02 but it can get n!, if you need to backtrack a lot 01:23:13 It's 1+2+3+4+...+n, not 1*2*3*4*...*n :P 01:23:52 if the best approximation of your neural net is an n-ary constraint, whatever i may mean by this; but i doubt it is 01:23:59 oh 01:24:12 well if you never backtrack and just fail, then it's n^2 ofc 01:25:43 so i guess you just failed; then again, i guess it's better to fail at ordos than by sleeping through a perfectly good reading day 01:25:58 i thought i'd finish alllll my books today :< 01:26:35 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 01:26:40 i think i'll say one more random thing 01:26:46 but i need to think a bit first. 01:26:48 ah, nothing to make you sleep long like having big plans for what you'll do when you wake up 01:26:59 :) 01:27:32 ehird: Hewwo? :P 01:27:35 that may be true, but usually those big plans prevent me from falling asleep, i'm fairly paranoid about my readings 01:27:43 ehird: I put a colorscheme generator on the current version. 01:27:52 ah yes, that too 01:27:55 ah random thing invented: 01:28:05 quick poll: what's your favorite page number? 01:28:10 42 01:28:11 (can't be complex) 01:28:38 GregorR: please link 01:28:39 do any of the bots on the channel implement 'message'? 01:28:44 so us mortals can look too 01:28:46 so it can be transcendental? :D 01:28:47 ab5tract: no. 01:28:49 oklopol: http://codu.org/checkmatch/ 01:28:51 GregorR: ehird said 'bye' 01:29:00 ab5tract: Oh, didn't notice X-P 01:29:02 you can store programs in fungot ofc... 01:29:03 oklopol: i got no worse one in some printed book just recently... let me try to reproduce this problem on freenode. i rarely do any public performances or play in bands, i use it 01:29:06 oklopol: Sorry, had linked it yesterday :P 01:29:15 GregorR: i know, just saw it in the logs 01:29:20 404 01:29:28 Erm, foop 01:29:32 ab5tract: i think there is a MemoServ or something 01:29:33 http://codu.org/colormatch/ 01:29:34 Tpyo :P 01:29:52 oh 01:29:58 hehe, i read that as "color". 01:30:01 i was asking for GregorR's sake so he can leave not for ehird 01:30:18 it doesn't have to be in the channel, i think, since it's a freenode service 01:30:22 s/not/note 01:30:27 ah 01:30:50 though i've never used it 01:30:53 Hmm 01:30:56 in D, huh? 01:31:05 -!- kaykay has joined. 01:31:46 fungot greet kaykay 01:31:47 ab5tract: lexical scoping works this way, one can do with the fact the fixed-point is taken directly from english, and " make out with her. 01:31:53 GregorR: some of the schemes are quite ugly, and it's no surprise, as it can, i assume, make any of the generated colors a background color, and i think people have even stronger heuristics on that than just "what go together" 01:32:28 oklopol: It filters a bit, but I can't find a smart filter. 01:32:35 "what looks good on what" is stronger than "what colors are friends" 01:32:36 hm... that should be doable in bf 01:33:05 -!- kaykay has left (?). 01:33:41 Yeah. 01:33:45 GregorR: what model are you using to filter right now? 01:33:51 neurals 01:34:03 the schemes 01:34:08 did you implement the neural network thing yourself, GregorR? 01:34:12 oklopol: Yeah. 01:34:27 ab5tract: V (of HSV) must be below 0.25 for the background and above 0.75 for the foreground. 01:34:29 ab5tract: no the php's i think, although this may just be a guess. 01:34:38 but it doesn't matter because it was a joke anyway. 01:34:39 ^def greet bf ++++++++[->++++<]>[->++>+++>+<<<]>++++++++.>+++++++++.>.,[.,] 01:34:39 Defined. 01:34:46 ^greet ab5tract 01:34:46 Hi ab5tract 01:35:06 oerjan: is that my name in bf? 01:35:13 no, just "Hi " 01:35:25 ahhh 01:35:42 made it up on the spot so it may not be optimal 01:36:35 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 01:36:45 bf doesn't have enough features for abstraction to create your nick 01:36:50 OH, except that was broken! 01:36:52 * GregorR fixes. 01:37:10 yay the world is getting better 01:37:26 everytime a bug is fixed an angel dies! 01:37:28 i mean 01:37:32 the opposite of that 01:37:50 GregorR: is there any way to collect the whole sequence of matches for a given color, then sort according to saturation, then multiply the top few by their respective aesthetic ratios 01:37:53 i'm a bit tired see you in the morning -> 01:37:58 and then take the top performer of that' 01:38:32 ab5tract: Hmmm ... yes. But Idowanna :P 01:38:41 Reload the page, I improved the colorscheme generator substantially. 01:38:43 hehe 01:39:11 Oops, and left debug code in X_X 01:39:11 very nice 01:39:49 Now if I can just figure out how to change link colors from JS ... 01:41:19 GregorR: jquery + css :P 01:41:36 And how does JQuery do it? X-P 01:41:46 (Part of why I don't use one of those is I don't want to learn (effectively) another language) 01:42:23 it'll probably be the last js "language" you learn. 01:43:32 it finds every 'a' tag (with a particular class/id or just all of them) and then applies your css change to it 01:43:49 it or them, i mean 01:43:52 Blech, seriously? I can do that, but ... blech. 01:44:25 in jquery it is maybe two lines 01:45:21 GregorR: one last feature request - text boxes with the current scheme's color value 01:45:22 It's two lines in normal JS :P 01:45:24 s 01:46:59 OK, reload 8-D 01:47:09 ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>[->++++++>+++>+++++++<<<]>+.+.>+++++.>++++.--.<<-.++.>>++. 01:47:09 ab5tract 01:47:15 Erm 01:47:18 Reload after I upload X_X 01:47:22 Oooooh. I see BF. 01:47:37 OK, NOW reload :P 01:47:40 I see bf which prints a string 01:47:46 (From a glance) 01:48:00 Oh, fungot's outputting it 01:48:01 Corun_: forgot what it was.... 01:48:34 * Corun_ goes to find his bf string print minimizer 01:48:36 oerjan: thank you very much :D 01:49:09 you're welcome :) 01:50:48 hm minimizing huh? 01:51:15 oerjan: my name looks pretty cool in my purposefully obtuse befunge http://gist.github.com/15658 (first file in the gist) 01:51:21 ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>[->++++++>+++++++>+++<<<]>+.+.>>+++++.<++++.--.<-.++.>++. 01:51:21 ab5tract 01:51:40 i think that was 1 char less 01:51:59 i haven't gotten around to properly obtusing the befunge boobies on that gist yet 01:52:11 but it would be great to have some brainfuck boobies 01:52:17 ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>[->++++++>+++>+++++++<<<]>+.+.>+++++.>++++.--.<<-.++.>>++. 01:52:17 ab5tract 01:55:36 Damn it 01:55:47 Can't find my ol' bf string program generator 01:55:54 * Corun_ goes searching in backups 01:56:26 Corun_: there's one in the esoteric file archive 01:56:36 Hmm? 01:56:41 Link? 01:56:42 although i did this one by hand 01:56:45 lessee 01:56:52 Could be mine, I guess 01:56:55 Written in haskell 01:57:23 no, a java one 01:57:27 Bah 01:57:39 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/brainfuck/util/textgen.java 01:57:59 if you have another you might want to submit it 01:58:17 yeah i'd much rather see it in haskell 02:00:26 oerjan: you scope those ( o Y o )'s ? 02:00:37 hm? 02:00:46 http://gist.github.com/15658 02:01:38 what do you mean "scope"? 02:01:54 "peep", "viddy", "check out" 02:02:03 ;) 02:02:07 ah you're going all greek on me 02:02:48 i think it should be the hello world of esolangs, but that's probably because i thought it up 02:03:06 oh well, in that case: 02:03:18 ^ul ( o Y o )aS 02:03:18 ( o Y o ) 02:04:06 GregorR: thanks for adding the scheme values to the colormatch page 02:04:35 and nice work on the links ;) 02:04:43 oerjan: what lang is that? 02:04:59 underload 02:05:14 it's on two of the bots here 02:05:19 +ul ( o Y o )aS 02:05:19 ( o Y o ) 02:05:36 because it's very easy to implement, i think 02:05:47 but still more readable than bf 02:06:05 ah. 02:06:17 it has even been implemented _in_ bf 02:06:43 oerjan: Could you reload the page in IE7? It might actually work maybe. 02:07:10 GregorR: i've already looked at it, it seemed to work 02:07:17 Awesomeo. 02:07:19 Thanks. 02:07:21 All I found was this... 02:07:21 http://obfuscated.co.uk/files/bfrealprog.txt 02:07:39 And my haskell implementation was... Well 02:07:41 Awful 02:07:41 :-) 02:07:52 I'd just learnt haskell like a few weeks before 02:07:59 fungot ran that version before but it was too slow (especially since fungot uses a bf implementation in befunge), so fizzie wrote an underload interpreter in befunge for it 02:07:59 oerjan: fnord oklopol: i meant use part of the expression of state machines. foof-loop can express what foof-loop can't, namely recursive processes. 02:09:17 foof-loops for all! 02:09:36 oh wait 02:09:52 GregorR: everything seems to work _except_ picking color 2 manually 02:10:02 WTF? 02:10:03 That's weird. 02:10:43 Oh, that's actually borken everywhere :P 02:10:45 * GregorR fixes it. 02:11:17 * Corun_ is annoyed that he's lost that 02:12:46 GregorR: actually writing in the first doesn't quite work either, although picking does, and curiously writing into the first and _then_ selecting the first pick putton causes it to pick up what i wrote in _including_ for the second color :D 02:13:32 oh and the pick button for the second color does cause the rgb to be written in, just not actually used 02:14:04 Hrm, that last one must be IE-specific . 02:14:10 (Also, reload, I just uploaded one fix) 02:14:26 Oh wait, that last fix may have fixed that too. 02:15:17 oh and the second pick menu doesn't close automatically on selection, though the first one does 02:15:29 i'll recheck 02:16:56 That's bizarre >_> 02:16:57 oh, now things work better except that pressing return doesn't cause written in values to take, i have to actually change focus with the mouse 02:17:30 Well, that's because it's onchange (AFAIK that's why anyway) 02:18:20 well it doesn't change just by writing in 02:20:24 That's because that's not how onchange works :P 02:20:32 that seems to be the only remaining flaw 02:20:49 I guess I could do onkeypress *shrugs* 02:20:57 It would run it more often than necessary, but *eh* 02:21:22 well selecting check match works. couldn't you make return do that? 02:21:47 even with focus in a text field 02:22:34 -!- ab5tract has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 02:22:43 Sure *shrugs* 02:23:15 tabbing works though 02:24:02 eek that was a particularly horrible green/pink combination 02:25:07 i think those two colors must be the worst :D 02:25:38 I agree. 02:25:42 Green + pink = instant barf. 02:25:45 Refresh, it updates on enter now. 02:26:36 i read somewhere that victorians considered green and orange to match 02:26:54 i haven't managed to get your NN to agree yet :D 02:27:10 Heh 02:27:45 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:27:57 it works 02:28:18 ^^ 02:31:09 hey i found one 02:31:29 #ED820A and #456D0E 02:33:36 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 02:34:16 so apparently it accepts _some_ green/orange combinations 02:35:07 aha! 02:35:20 switching them causes it to no longer accept it 02:36:15 GregorR: your network decisions are not symmetric :/ 02:36:36 Yeah, I know >_> 02:38:49 -!- Corun_ has quit ("Corun exited with status -65, a healthy resting heart rate, Keith."). 02:56:48 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:57:26 +ul (::a:aa::a)((^):a)~*^(~aS:^):^ 03:57:26 ((((((^))))))(((((^)))))(((((^)))))(((^)))((^))((^))(^) ...a out of stack! 04:22:44 -!- immibis has joined. 04:24:56 -!- revcompgeek has joined. 04:26:22 what do you guys think of BRZRK? http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/BRZRK 04:26:31 -!- immibis_ has joined. 04:27:11 what do you guys think of BRZRK? (http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/BRZRK) 04:27:19 what do you guys think of BRZRK? (http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/BRZRK ) 04:37:31 What does BRZRK stand for? 04:37:44 ... 04:37:46 berzerk 04:37:47 duh 04:38:07 its Web2.0 04:38:13 here are no vowels in web 2.0 04:38:16 er.. 04:38:21 wb 2.0 04:38:25 lol 04:40:26 ll? 04:40:45 It doesn't stand for anything. 04:41:01 I couldn't think of anything interesting 04:42:26 Don't you mean UNIX? 04:42:33 There are no vowels in UNIX :P 04:43:38 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:43:59 * oerjan sees a great need 04:45:20 bah 04:48:45 UNIX is web 2.0, dude 04:48:54 so is Czech 04:49:07 no, UNIX is web -1.0 04:49:13 it was here before the web 04:49:26 possibly even web -2.0 04:50:23 nah,unix is SO web 2.0 04:50:39 web 2.0 is all about the clean, simple, minimal interfaces and network applications and shit 04:50:42 and thats so unix dude 04:50:50 shells? clean simple and minimal 04:51:04 -!- immibis_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:51:05 unix originated as time sharing shit? network applications. 04:51:06 unfortunately unix is no longer about being simple and minimal 04:51:16 really, Web 2.0 is UNIX 2.0 04:51:19 Pike pointed this out 04:51:24 silence! 04:51:41 once CAT had more functions than just concatenation, the unix ideal was dead :P 04:51:58 thats stupid 05:12:58 -!- revcompgeek has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 05:16:10 your stupid! 05:16:34 (only 24 minutes late!) 05:17:11 or eons, dependently on how you count 05:18:36 especially if you live inside a computer! 05:18:41 * psygnisfive taps icon 05:18:42 REBOOT! 05:18:45 * psygnisfive transforms 05:21:31 INCOMING GAME 05:21:40 :D 05:21:41 <3you 05:26:02 +help 05:26:22 bah 05:45:48 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:12:30 -!- megatron has joined. 06:12:38 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 06:13:47 -!- megatron has changed nick to moozilla. 06:16:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | err. 06:42:37 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:16:32 -!- olsner has joined. 07:29:57 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:00:10 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:12:16 -!- lilja has joined. 10:05:06 -!- M0ny has joined. 10:05:37 plop 10:13:51 -!- Chase-san has joined. 10:15:22 With the PESOIX API how do you go back from it to the standard language you we're programming in, as I don't see a call to return from just printing everything (including the >[.>,]+- etc) 10:17:18 even a rather round about way would be useful to know (I mean really its a esoteric language ;) 10:19:10 ... 10:19:12 doi 10:19:15 i'm dumb hah 10:19:28 kay nevermind 10:19:32 -!- Chase-san has quit. 10:30:13 -!- lilja has quit ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'"). 10:44:21 -!- mbishop_ has joined. 10:45:10 -!- mbishop has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:56:39 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:08:38 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:10:09 -!- moozilla has joined. 11:16:20 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:20:44 -!- moozilla has joined. 11:37:27 -!- megatron has joined. 11:37:35 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 12:16:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | my hexprint uses much [--------------->+<] alike code and that's slow in slow mode but i like to watch memory. 12:58:52 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:59:09 -!- Judofyr has joined. 13:04:08 psygnisfive: btw, you're wrong re: unix 13:04:27 the unix aesthetic was dead way before the end of the 70s 13:04:34 unfortunately. 13:04:57 GregorR: /colormatch/=404 13:05:02 err 13:05:03 nm 13:29:51 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:38:10 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:41:43 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:20:34 -!- jix has joined. 14:37:09 wtf 14:37:21 seems like some aircraft is flying low over here 14:37:27 jet it sounds like 14:37:57 AnMaster: They're dropping a bomb on you as part of their master plan to eradicate funge. 14:38:04 Run. Don't look back. GO NOW! 14:38:05 hahah 14:38:30 * AnMaster has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 14:38:40 Fuck. 14:38:45 He was really annoying but he didn't deserve to die D: 14:38:48 (Most of the time.) 14:38:55 ... hmm, sure is peaceful in here... 14:39:02 I could get used to this. 14:39:20 * AnMaster (n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster) has joined #esoteric 14:39:26 AnMaster: Hah. Imposter. 14:39:27 wtf was up with my router 14:39:33 You're the guy who dropped the bomb! 14:39:35 AREN'T YOU 14:39:44 no, the aircraft is still up there 14:39:48 AnMaster: Well, thank you very much. 14:39:50 Oh. 14:39:53 Damn. 14:40:00 ... Meanwhile. 14:41:58 http://www.zedshaw.com/blog/2008-10-28.html BREAKING NEWS: Zed Shaw shows elements of humanity. 14:42:48 wtf sounds like there is a helicopter now too 14:43:00 AnMaster: It's just the Funge Elimination Team. 14:43:05 Relax, sit back. It'll be alright. 14:43:59 ehird, nah my best guess is quite a lot more worrying actually... One of the countries high security prisons is located around 10 km or so from this town... maybe someone escaped 14:44:00 http://arxiv.org/abs/0810.5056 Only the 53rd P != NP paper on arxiv today! 14:44:15 AnMaster: You escaped, you were put in for crimes against fungemanity 14:44:29 no not me. 14:50:42 http://zephyrfalcon.org/weblog/arch_d7_2004_03_27.html#e536 python for commodore 64 14:57:48 heh 14:58:23 eral 14:58:25 :P 14:58:27 *real 14:58:30 yeah 14:58:34 I guess scaled down 14:58:37 or it wouldn't fit 14:59:14 no duh 15:05:38 Ummmm. 15:05:39 http://ccl.clozure.com/blog/?p=28 15:05:42 Minimum donation...$500. 15:08:49 they won't get any then 15:08:53 I bet 15:09:06 AnMaster: Of course they will; BigCorps use Common Lisp. 15:09:23 But they would get a lot more if they didn't ask for $500 or more, naturally. 15:09:47 h 15:09:49 hm* 15:22:16 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 15:22:27 http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_releases/beatles_unknown_hard_days_night_chord_mystery_solved_using_fourier_transform *g* 15:23:39 Are you having some sort of blog hour or what? 15:23:55 fizzie: Not really. 15:24:13 Reddit is just amusing me more than usually today :p 15:24:34 AnMaster: Think I should write that quadratic probe stuff for cfunge now? 15:25:34 ehird, well if you want. I was reading up on different probing models and such 15:25:49 AnMaster: I'd go for cuckoo hashing ideally, though, really, the best thing to do would be the static array stuff :-P 15:26:08 ehird, yes I think trying a static array would be good 15:26:28 {x in (...) and y in (...), then foo[x][y]} has got to be a lot faster than {hash (x,y); look up in hash array, traverse list until key=(x,y), return value} 15:26:48 for reference mycology is about 200 chars wide and 800 lines. fungot much less 15:26:49 AnMaster: sweet hairy moses i hope it's worth the 7 though.) 15:26:56 I'm obviously not very well versed with the cfunge code, though, so I probably couldn't do that 15:26:57 fungot stores stuff in negative funge space iirc 15:26:58 AnMaster: isometric has been updated: http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/gambit/. what about ( for-each display what) ( newline) 15:27:06 AnMaster: Yes, but not much stuff. 15:27:13 ehird, I could do it 15:27:14 fizzie: how often does it access negative spaec? 15:27:15 *space 15:27:20 fizzie, where does it store all the data then? 15:27:26 AnMaster: Yeah, I was just saying that i'll stick to other stuff :P 15:27:53 Well, the programs are stored in the positive space, from y=2000 downwards. But they are copied on line 8 before execution, anyway. 15:28:30 The one thing that really uses negative space a lot is the Underload interp, because the stack starts at x=0 (approximately) and grows to the left. 15:28:37 ehird, oh and having all the entries being of a fixed size helps quite a bit I noted, malloc overhead was quite huge (which is worse than quite large, but also worse grammatically), so adopting the mempool system should be useful 15:28:57 AnMaster: I'm not sure a mempool is really always useful. 15:29:00 the existing mempool system should be easy to change for a different object size 15:29:18 ehird, well depends. I did profile it for the case I wrote it 15:29:30 both in term of speed and memory usage 15:30:02 Apart from the Underload stack (and possibly program -- depends on the program) the only thing in negative space are those str: strings and the "is my conversation looping" things. 15:30:29 fizzie: Well, underload stack is worth optimizing for. 15:30:45 AnMaster: btw, i would make the array have [0] = minus something 15:30:48 so you get a bit of minus space 15:31:19 for mycology. memory usage: before mempool: 7.8 MB, after mempool: 6.5 MB; speed: slight speed up, not significant enough to be sure though 15:31:20 Underload could probably be somewhat optimized by optimizizing the Befunge code; it was quite proof-of-concept what I'm now using. 15:31:25 -!- Azstal has joined. 15:31:30 ehird, yes that sounds good for array 15:31:34 AnMaster: Well, memory usage will shoot up for a static array. 15:31:58 ehird, yes of course, but one issue before mempool was the malloc overhead 15:32:09 yeah 15:32:14 and since static array will be one huge chunk you will only get overhead once 15:32:24 or not at all, depending on how you implement it 15:32:25 Hm. ais523 hasn't been here for two days. Meh. 15:33:09 static array should be quite easy 15:33:50 just wish my hands weren't freezing :/ 15:35:12 now what was it you said fizzie about testing "within static array bounds"? 15:35:15 power of tow 15:35:17 two* 15:35:18 hah 15:35:24 * AnMaster reads up 15:35:28 AnMaster: fizzie said a bitmask thingy 15:35:39 also, start Eclipse and put your hands next to the computer. 15:35:42 Should warm them up nicely. 15:35:44 "if (x & ~0x3ff)" does "if (x >= 0 && x < 1024)", basically. 15:35:55 ah yes 15:36:09 ehird, haha 15:36:26 I actually use kate mostly when working on cfunge 15:36:32 The resident GCC person could probably tell how much of that kind of stuff GCC does automagically, when constant expressions and simple variable references are considered. 15:36:42 fizzie, ais? 15:36:49 well he isn't here, ehird said so 15:36:51 ais523 doesn't actually know gcc 15:36:54 he just learned it to write gcc-bf :-P 15:37:02 I think pikhq may be a gccy-person. 15:37:03 Whatever. 15:37:35 AnMaster: For full disclosure, I'm going to be editing cfunge with an editor I paid money for. You can reject my patches for dirty proprietaryism at your wish. :-P 15:37:44 FUNGE_ATTR_FAST int ght_insert(ght_hash_table_t * restrict p_ht, 15:37:44 fungeCell p_entry_data, 15:37:49 isn't that arg meant to line up with the first...? 15:38:05 ehird, yes it is. Probably something got renamed 15:38:14 and I used sed to do it 15:38:21 causing stuff to get misaligned 15:38:28 * AnMaster hacks on static array 15:39:13 should it be malloced block or truly static array hm. 15:39:21 probably doesn't matter meh 15:39:22 AnMaster: truly static 15:39:40 ah yes, it could matter for speed actually 15:39:41 so yeah 15:40:34 hm the bitmask trick is nice but kind of messy for when you want negative funge space 15:40:46 in fact bitmasks on signed numbers are messy 15:40:58 Yeah, well, optimization is messy. 15:41:03 AnMaster: Just don't have it be [-x] 15:41:13 you're not going to access negative array indices, surely 15:41:18 indeed :P 15:41:28 rather adding offset then checking 15:41:29 so shift it up to the index you'll actually access 15:41:30 yeah 15:41:31 then check 15:41:34 seems like the cleanest way 15:41:47 and using non-offset for the hash for outer funge-space ;) 15:42:09 yes 15:42:58 AnMaster: Hm. I can get out of licensing my code as GPL3 by making it a dynamic library that's linked to, can't I? :-P~ 15:43:04 fizzie, how far into negative funge space does fungot go? (grammar fail) 15:43:04 AnMaster: but use it as a simple evaluator" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord 15:43:47 AnMaster: y=-15 is the topmost point it touches, but as far as the X axis is considered, it depends completely on the Underload stack length. 15:43:49 ehird, well for the hash library it is actually LGPL, since I didn't write it, but used other code. And that is documented. 15:44:04 AnMaster: that's not a grammar fail, btw 15:44:10 oh? 15:44:21 probably the most idiomatic thing you've said today :-P it's not very formal, though 15:44:46 fizzie: funge stack length 10 = ? 15:45:07 If you're going to play around with the interpreter, I probably should write some Funge for fungot. There's at least the ignore-list, the HTTP client and more languages to implement. 15:45:07 fizzie: the timestamp which i ignored and made my own brainfuck in it's place 15:45:24 Hmm, what about the Funge stack? 15:45:38 morning all. 15:45:50 fizzie: err 15:45:51 i meant 15:45:53 negative funge space? hmm prolly means exactly what i think it does. 15:45:56 underload stack length 10 = how far in negative spae 15:45:57 oklopol: A bit late to be morning. 15:46:18 sure feels like morning after sleeping through 6 hours of lectures 15:47:01 (i did finish my books though) 15:47:03 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 15:47:04 ehird: Well, the Underload stack is strings. So for (foo)(bar) the 'b' character would be in x=-8. 15:47:19 ah 15:47:28 hrrm I need to memset the array to be filled with space on startup 15:47:29 fizzie: thing is... the underload stack is a good target for optimization 15:47:51 fizzie: i think you should move it to positive space. 15:47:55 AnMaster: yeah 15:48:00 {} are immutable in C, right? I never really used those literals. 15:48:26 It makes the stack underflow checks more complicated, though; currently there's just some 0`|s. 15:48:32 ehird, well depends on what you mean with immutable 15:48:43 AnMaster: can you change the shit in it at runtime ;-) 15:48:57 fizzie: Yea, but the more negativespace in the static array the less positive space 15:49:02 and I'd say positive space is way more common than negativespace 15:49:05 ehird, depends on where you assign the {}. Also look at the macro in vector.h 15:49:19 so yes you can stick variables into it 15:49:28 i mean 15:49:34 foo = {1,2,3} 15:49:34 unless you mean like code blocks 15:49:38 you can't do foo[0] = 2 15:49:43 as far as I recall 15:49:45 You can't do "foo = {1,2,3}" either. 15:49:47 as i said, that is one part of c i never touched 15:49:48 int foo[] = {1,2,3} 15:49:51 yes you can 15:49:52 fizzie: yes, you can 15:49:54 const int foo[] = {1,2,3} 15:49:55 no you can't 15:49:56 :) 15:50:00 That's not "foo = {1,2,3}". 15:50:07 fizzie: i was omitting the type for brevity 15:50:10 AnMaster: well then 15:50:22 int staticfs[] = {{' ', ', ', ', ', ', ', ', ',...},...} 15:50:26 it'll be a huge file fer sure... 15:50:34 but less runtime overhead 15:50:47 I wouldn't be storing those spaces in it. 15:50:55 Runtime overhead at initialization is probably a non-issue. 15:51:00 ehird, err I was writing the static bit, I thought you were doing the hash bit? 15:51:08 AnMaster: right, right 15:51:10 While a megabyte of spaces in the binary is just... ugly. 15:51:11 doesn't mean i can't talk ab- 15:51:12 hi ais523 15:51:15 memset(&static_space, ' ', sizeof(static_space)); 15:51:20 that was what I was doing 15:51:23 ais523: I'm actually workign with AnMaster to optimize cfunge. 15:51:42 *crickets* 15:51:46 heh 15:51:49 hi ehird, are you still ehird? 15:51:53 nopw 15:51:54 *nope 15:51:56 how did you guess 15:52:02 It's the bizarro-ehird. 15:52:16 AnMaster: anyway, why use memset instead of a {} literal? 15:52:28 it'd surely be faster using a literal, as nothing would happen at runtime 15:52:39 Er, you'd still be loading those spaces from the file. 15:52:47 It might well be faster to memset it instead of that. 15:52:47 ehird, very simple, for a static array it would store the whole thing in binary and load it from disk 15:52:57 true, true. 15:53:06 so 1) what fizzie said 2) the code would be quite large 15:53:06 alright then 15:53:06 For another thing, if you change the dimensions of the array, you'd need to modify the initializer. 15:53:21 fizzie: now that's just an argument to give c proper macros :) 15:53:46 But as far as memset(&static_space, ' ', sizeof(static_space)); goes, that sets all the bytes to 0x20. 15:53:56 I'm assuming your static_space cells are not byte-sized, though. 15:53:59 wait. 15:54:01 AnMaster 15:54:06 ehird, ? 15:54:07 static_space is a nested array 15:54:17 is it not? 15:54:19 wait, no 15:54:20 it'd be faster without 15:54:24 actually, wait 15:54:25 should it be? 15:54:26 static fungeCell static_space[FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X * FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y]; 15:54:28 hmm 15:54:28 no 15:54:29 was what I wrote 15:54:30 you're right 15:54:34 sorry, wasn't thinking 15:54:41 it's ok ehird :) 15:54:49 But you need to initialize it manually, not with memset. 15:55:06 fizzie, ah right, don't want to set every char 15:55:16 * AnMaster fixes 15:56:29 for (size_t i = 0; i < sizeof(static_space) / sizeof(fungeCell); i++) 15:56:29 static_space[i] = ' '; 15:56:30 for now 15:56:54 errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr 15:57:02 why not memset? oh, wait 15:57:05 fungeCell can > char, right 15:57:07 kay 15:57:21 ehird, sizeof(fungeCell) == 4 or 8 bytes. Using char wouldn't work :/ 15:57:25 at all 15:57:29 yah 15:57:40 Anyway, yes, the Underload stack could be moved to begin at whatever the maximum positive value in that static array is, for maximum cfungeyness. 15:57:56 like all fingerprints would be 1 char for example, and then Mike Riley would surely have used all the printable ones already 15:58:08 ;P 15:58:41 AnMaster: that would be great 15:58:47 also... 15:59:02 relevant to AnMaster, MikeRiley, and funge-108 (even though i dislike it, but whatever) - 15:59:09 hm? 15:59:12 a response to the "but I can't keep a URI up forever!" - 15:59:15 tag: uris 15:59:23 step 1. pick a domain or an email address that you owned on day X 15:59:34 step 2. if X.dayofmonth == 0, chop off the day of month 15:59:38 err 15:59:39 == 1 15:59:40 :-P 15:59:43 and chop off the day 15:59:47 step 3. if X.month == jan, chop off month 15:59:58 so "I owned foo@bar.com at jan 1 2008" = just 2008 15:59:59 then 16:00:14 You're missing "step 3b. if X.year == 1, chop off year". 16:00:15 tag:EMAILORDOMAIN,OWNEDAT:ARB 16:00:21 fizzie: heh 16:00:23 but, e.g. 16:00:39 tag:mikerileys@email.com,2009,HorribleFingerprint5000 16:00:42 hehe 16:00:59 oh and you are missing step 4 and 5 16:01:00 is a persistent, permanent URI that doesn't depend on anything changing (you can't retroactively not have that email at that time unless you're in featherworld) 16:01:02 4. ??? 16:01:05 so, yeah. 16:01:05 5. PROFIT! 16:01:09 AnMaster: tired meme is tired 16:01:22 all your memes are belong to us 16:02:19 it has to be noted that if you DO own a domain serving web content that you think you can reasonably keep up for a long while, you should use an http uri instead for the whole "put it in your browser and get docs" thing. 16:02:33 Still good practice to put the year/month in there, though, in case you ever use the same name twice. 16:02:51 (e.g. http://rcfunge98.com/2009/01/HorribleFingerprint5000) 16:03:01 oops i just clicked that 16:03:04 now it's in his server logs :D 16:03:16 I'll probably use an email-based tag: URL for IFFI, I think 16:03:26 yes 16:03:32 ehird, oh also the FUNGE_ATTR_FAST attribute is actually quite useful, on x86. It tells gcc to use a "pass arguments in register" calling convention on x86 (on other platforms that is the default calling convention usually). Profiling shows it helps a bit on x86. Just in case you wondered. :) 16:03:54 AnMaster: If you say any more I will kill you for microoptimizing. 16:03:59 With a fork. 16:04:01 A rusty fork. 16:04:15 a rusty fork of cfunge? ;) 16:04:19 That's not an optimal tool for killing. 16:04:25 fizzie: It is, however, painful. 16:04:26 Very painful. 16:04:42 You should first apply a file to the fork to sharpen it; you'll shave several centiseconds off the killing operation. 16:04:49 Great idea 16:04:53 It'll also be more painful. 16:04:56 I will also use a spoon. 16:09:59 hm, static array coded and compiles *tests* 16:10:26 runs!? Wait... works on first try. Coded in C... Something must be wrong ;) 16:10:35 o_O 16:10:38 AnMaster: is it fast? :-P 16:10:59 ehird, debug build, so don't know yet, just checking valgrind likes it and so on so far 16:11:22 * AnMaster builds optimised build 16:12:37 ehird, about same speed, with hash the time varies more between fastest and slowest. With static the "spread" is smaller. 16:12:38 hrrm 16:12:45 Hmm. 16:12:48 It should be a lot faster, really. 16:13:00 http://rafb.net/p/rdV5Hn36.html 16:13:00 You're cutting out the hash function, all the checks of the hashtable, the linked list traversal... 16:13:10 ehird, maybe the check is bad then 16:13:14 * AnMaster looks 16:13:18 There's probably a flaw, yeah. 16:13:44 ah well at least the world is sane then. It *didn't* work on first try ;) 16:13:59 :-) 16:14:22 Breakpoint 1, fungespace_is_static (x=63, y=63) at /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/funge-space/funge-space.c:123 16:14:22 123 if ((x & FUNGESPACE_STATIC_MASK_X) && (y & FUNGESPACE_STATIC_MASK_Y)) 16:14:22 (gdb) s 16:14:22 126 return false; 16:14:23 right 16:14:53 hrrm 16:15:18 wait. I seem to be missing a ! there 16:15:24 *g* 16:16:07 What you want is something like "if ((x & ~0x3ff) || (y & ~0x3ff)) { use_the_hash_instead(); }" -- are there any bits in either coordinates outside the range. 16:16:33 hm right 16:17:42 fizzie, wait, what did you mean with " are there any bits in either coordinates outside the range."? 16:18:13 Well, "x & ~0x3ff" will be nonzero only for values that are <0 or >0x3ff. 16:18:41 um yes 16:19:24 For any value in [0, 0x3ff] only the ten least significant bits will be set, and those will be cleared by the masking; for any value that's <0 or >0x3ff there's at least some bits outside those ten least-significant which will still be there, making the result nonzero. 16:19:50 you mean it could return "is in static" when it isn't? 16:19:56 The "outside the range" comment might've been a bit imprecise. 16:21:00 why bother using &~ when you have > 16:21:11 the compiler willl optimise them into the same thing anyway... 16:21:12 ais523: speed, supposedly 16:21:12 ais523: It's clearer. :p 16:21:14 write the clearer one 16:21:56 Did I not say that the one who deals with compilers will tell you how much the compiler will optimize that kind of stuff. :p 16:22:30 a good rule of thumb: the compiler is better at silly low-level optimisation tricks than you are 16:23:16 i find that pretty clear too 16:23:33 but yes, I find &~0x3ff relatively clear 16:23:51 but would still find ((unsigned)x>=0x400) clearer 16:23:57 and it will be compiled into the same thing 16:24:09 I'll be back soon, rebooting, just upgraded the kernel 16:25:37 i wouldn't find that clearer, because i'd think (unsigned)x meant abs() at first. 16:26:24 you don't program c, though. 16:26:37 Yes, and I'd start to wonder about C's conversion rules. "(unsigned)x" is not exactly "interpret the bits of x as unsigned". 16:26:58 I'm sure it does the right thing; but I'd wonder. 16:27:24 About the only thing I'd find completely unmistakable would be the (x >= 0 && x <= 1023). 16:27:27 ehird: i don't, but that's still not something i usually do, just like to announce it when i fail. 16:28:51 BAD: z reflects 16:28:51 >nvw>#;:;> ;$0 0 6: 8. 3$ 16:28:53 hrrm 16:29:35 fizzie: (unsigned)x is "interpret the bits of x as unsigned" if you use two's complement 16:30:17 huh z doesn't reflect for me 16:30:24 in a small test. 16:32:00 what does z do again? 16:32:25 Explicit nop, wasn't it? 16:32:38 what fizzie said yes 16:32:55 zzz 16:32:56 takes one tick, space take no ticks 16:33:21 ugh my head hurts so much. 16:33:22 however the odd thing is I didn't even get past the funge-93 part first 16:33:25 really strange 16:34:24 wait... 16:34:26 duh 16:34:29 found the issue 16:35:06 static_space[x*y] != static_space[x*FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X*y]; XD 16:35:13 lulz 16:35:48 And you might still want something more like [x+FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X*y]. 16:35:50 well that isn't totally correct either. segfault 16:35:52 Now to the bus. -> 16:35:54 fizzie, yes 16:36:48 ehird, ok, major speedup 16:36:53 woop 16:36:58 real 0m0.122s to real 0m0.059s 16:36:58 AnMaster: from 0.11 to what 16:37:01 oh. wow. 16:37:14 AnMaster: is that for Mycology 16:37:16 see, if you'd spent less time putting posix_ in functions and more time thinking about algorithms and structures :-P 16:37:22 ais523, yes 16:37:23 running Mycology in .059s is pretty impressive... 16:37:33 ais523: he added a static array 16:37:36 ehird, however it may still be buggy, need to test edge cases, such as when writing near the edge of the static space and so on 16:37:41 for the most common boundaries 16:37:41 I suggested that months ago IIRC 16:37:59 ais523: pfft, everyone knows microoptimizations do far better 16:37:59 :D 16:40:04 ehird, also *reduced* memory usage, at least for mycology. 16:40:10 Ha. 16:40:15 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:40:18 AnMaster: I hope you've learned a lesson. :-P 16:40:31 well not odd really that memory usage is reduced, less overhead 16:40:54 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 16:42:50 ehird, one issue is I can't run valgrind on it 16:42:52 $ valgrind ./cfunge ../mycology/mycology.b98 16:42:52 valgrind: mmap(0x629000, 1067462656) failed in UME with error 22 (Invalid argument). 16:42:52 valgrind: this can be caused by executables with very large text, data or bss segments. 16:43:00 jrj 16:43:01 *heh 16:43:08 fixable, i'm sure. 16:43:30 ehird, it only happened after I corrected the size of the array, it was too small before 16:43:39 due to the same forgetting *FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X 16:44:06 not being able to run valgrind on something may indicate a deeper problem... 16:44:13 it seems to be 128 mb now 16:44:18 wtf 16:44:29 also, 1067462656 bytes is a lot... that's about 1GB of memory 16:44:33 not everyone has that much... 16:44:45 indeed for a static array it is too much 16:45:11 you're lucky the BSS segment was invented in that case, otherwise you'd have a 1GB executable... 16:45:21 yes this doesn't work hrrm 16:45:22 1GB??? 16:45:28 your static array is too big!! 16:45:30 what is it set at ?????? 16:45:58 ehird, 512x255 16:46:10 well 512x255 doesn't come to 1GB 16:46:12 err 511*255 16:46:20 anyway, it's the mmap which had the 1GB argument, not the array 16:46:24 ais523, true, but remember each line needs 255 entries 16:46:29 AnMaster: it doesn't 16:46:33 just make it only handle smaller lines 16:46:49 well mycology is about 200 chars wide iirc 16:47:03 so we can loose power of two if we want 16:47:12 and it is about 700 lines long 16:49:11 -!- jix has joined. 16:50:31 wait a sec 16:50:34 something is wrong here 16:50:38 #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X 255 16:50:39 #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y 511 16:50:44 then the array should be: 16:50:47 static fungeCell static_space[FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X * FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y]; 16:50:49 right? 16:50:52 yes. 16:50:54 Durr. 16:51:00 right 16:51:34 looks hot 16:51:54 but how will that help the society? 16:52:01 in a hot way, presumably. 16:52:36 how hot exactly? 16:52:42 huh 16:52:51 oklopol: depends. 16:52:53 * AnMaster adds some valgrind macros in the code 16:52:55 how are doubles returned in stdcall 16:52:56 ? 16:53:02 in a hot way, I'm guessing? 16:53:39 std's are not all that hot 16:53:54 does anyone want to translate all this okoese into something actually meaningful? 16:54:00 i'm guessing hot is related to okoality. 16:54:16 "how are doubles returned in stdcall?" was really my only point, and that was a question 16:55:01 "std's are not all that hot" was a simple std double entendre, the original hotness+society was just general okoese, i won't attempt to translate it into your human languages 16:55:42 oklopol: did you just come up with a pun that only works in a non-existent language? 16:55:44 if so, I approve 16:56:15 wtf I end up with memory corruption elsewhere. 16:56:17 the hotness+society one? 16:56:22 yes 16:56:29 yeah sure that's so much fun if you knew okoese! 16:56:42 but really, are they returned in like floating point registers? 16:56:55 I don't know how stdcall works, really 16:57:03 there are lots of calling conventions floating around 16:57:11 (gdb) print &static_space 16:57:11 $5 = (fungeCell (*)[130305]) 0x628540 16:57:12 (gdb) print &pic 16:57:12 $7 = (Drawing *) 0x7272a0 16:57:12 and the only one I really know is the one ABI uses (for gcc-bf) 16:57:20 (gdb) print 0x628540 + sizeof(static_space) 16:57:20 $9 = 7499080 16:57:31 now, is it just me, or are two static variables overlapping? 16:57:57 wait I must be wrong 16:57:58 i asked our lecturer, he just said programming directly with stdcall was such a horrible experience he didn't wanna try to remember the details. 16:57:59 that looks weird... 16:58:05 (gdb) print &static_space + sizeof(static_space) 16:58:05 $10 = (fungeCell (*)[130305]) 0xfd03a10580 16:58:07 hm 16:58:19 AnMaster: is that on 64-bit? 16:58:24 ais523, yes 16:58:25 that pointer looks worryingly large... 16:58:32 sources always say things are returned in EAX, why say something that specific if it clearly cannot be entirely true. 16:58:33 yea... 16:58:37 yes something must be wrong 16:58:50 what is sizeof(static_space)? 16:58:59 oh, there isn't an overlap really 16:59:30 &static_space + sizeof(static_space) == (char*)static_space + sizeof(static_space)*sizeof(*static_space) 16:59:34 which is surely not what you meant...# 17:00:17 right 17:00:46 pointer arithmetic in C works in units of sizeof(whatever you're pointing to), not in units of 1, unless you cast to char* first 17:00:47 then why do I get memory corruption in pic, and valgrind fails to detect it 17:00:48 hm 17:00:54 must be some off by one error or such 17:02:05 pointer arithmetic in C works in units of sizeof(whatever you're pointing to), not in units of 1, unless you cast to char* first 17:02:10 this always really annoyed me 17:02:19 ehird: arrays wouldn't work otherwise 17:02:23 ais523: i know but eurgh 17:02:25 it only annoys you if you're trying to think too low-level 17:02:31 it makes pointers a weird magic type with odd addition 17:02:36 it's easy to do in C though, because it's so low-level itself 17:02:40 ais523: considering c is low level 17:02:47 "pointer" is not one type but lots, when you know that it's easy to handle 17:02:48 and it provides easy ways to get a pointer's memory address 17:02:51 like "casting to int" 17:02:55 ais523, currently I'm wondering what is located in the 1368 byte gap between those variables 17:03:07 AnMaster: get your compiler to output a map file 17:03:08 and look at it 17:03:14 I guess something that is addressable since valgrind didn't complain 17:03:16 ah thanks 17:03:44 ais523, can't locate that in man gcc? 17:03:53 oh linker 17:03:56 right 17:03:59 yes, a linker option 17:04:20 -Wl,-M 17:04:23 as the argument to gcc 17:04:26 (just -M to the linker) 17:04:53 -M goes to stdout according to man ld? 17:04:58 apparently so 17:05:03 -Map hm 17:05:11 strange, but I suppose it's like -E going to stdout 17:05:50 yes -Wl,-Map,cfunge.map 17:05:52 or whatever 17:05:59 would give you a map file called cfunge.map 17:06:11 yes I'm looking for static variables in it atm 17:06:26 ais523, ah they would be in bss I believe... 17:06:32 yes, most likely 17:06:38 sensible place to put big things full of zeros 17:06:41 because I can't locate them in that map file 17:06:51 but bss should be in the map file too 17:06:57 can you paste it, and I'll have a look myself? 17:07:18 well 1861 lines 17:07:23 * AnMaster tries pastebin 17:07:35 that's why I asked you to paste it, rather than just put it inline in channel... 17:07:47 ais523, some pastebins got length limits 17:07:51 http://rafb.net/p/cTCkFA47.html 17:08:05 pic and static_space 17:08:45 static_space is in funge-space.c pic in TURT.c 17:09:25 funge-space.o was given 0xfe848 in the BSS 17:09:35 that looks like it's large enough to fit your static-space array 17:09:54 -!- moozilla has joined. 17:09:58 whereas TURT.o got 0xa8 of space 17:10:00 which is not a lot 17:10:03 how big is pic? 17:10:10 ais523, sizeof(void*) 17:10:15 ais523: what do you mean arrays wouldn't work 17:10:18 ok, so it should fit easily 17:10:28 Deewiant: well, a[b] means *(a+b) 17:10:33 just map a[i] to *(a + i * sizeof *a) 17:10:35 ais523, wait no 17:10:39 so if pointer arithmetic were redefined to work on bytes, it wouldn't work properly 17:10:40 it'd work fine 17:10:42 ais523: no 17:10:45 ais523: pointers are not arrays 17:10:47 Deewiant: what about *p++ in arrays of non-string? 17:10:48 that's a myth 17:10:49 ais523, it was not a pointer, I was wrong 17:10:51 (gdb) print sizeof(pic) 17:10:51 $5 = 40 17:10:56 ehird: I know pointers aren't arrays 17:10:59 just do the crazy-ass overloading for arrays, OR what Deewiant said 17:11:04 but array indexing is implemented using pointer arithmetic 17:11:07 ais523: that would be an error and everyone would do it differently if it hadn't ever worked :-P 17:11:12 ais523: doesn't have to be 17:11:14 ais523, there is also another small static variable there 17:11:21 (gdb) print sizeof(turt) 17:11:21 $6 = 80 17:11:27 ais523: it's trading one set of gotchas for another, both ways would work 17:11:43 ok, 80 + 40 = 120, and 0xa8 is 168 17:11:46 so easily enough space 17:12:13 Deewiant: fwiw, pointers in BCPL work like you suggested, I think 17:12:19 at least, all addition is done in 4-byte units 17:12:21 ais523: didn't BCPL only have one type 17:12:25 or was that B 17:12:25 as all BCPL data types are 4 bytes long 17:12:39 ais523, for funge space there is 1042440 + 48 17:12:44 it only effectively has one type as they're all 4 bytes long 17:13:04 0xfe838 17:13:09 and the compiler gave it 0xfe848 17:13:15 so no, doesn't seem to be any static variable overlap 17:13:33 ais523, hm right, wonder why I got memory corruption there, and why valgrind didn't warn 17:13:43 ais523: according to wikipedia it was 'word' which was problematic when moving BCPL code away from 16-bit machines 17:13:49 maybe something else was corrupting it? 17:14:02 ais523, well I only changed the space stuff. 17:14:03 you could have got a stray pointer somewhere which ended up pointing there 17:14:07 hm 17:14:12 as long as it was pointing into the BSS, valgrind wouldn't notice 17:14:14 as you own all the space there 17:14:16 mudflap time 17:14:45 -!- megatron has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:17:18 ah found it thanks to mudflap 17:17:24 what was it? 17:17:27 it is really bad access in static_space 17:17:30 (gdb) print 63 + 511 * FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X 17:17:31 $3 = 130368 17:17:33 (gdb) print sizeof(static_space) / sizeof(fungeCell) 17:17:33 $5 = 130305 17:17:49 bad arithmetic, then? 17:17:52 yes 17:18:06 can't figure out where the off-by-whatever error is 17:18:10 static fungeCell static_space[FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X * FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y]; 17:18:13 #define STATIC_COORD(rx, ry) (rx+FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X*ry) 17:18:21 must be wrong 17:18:27 That should be ((rx)+FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X*(ry)) 17:18:47 fizzie, well that won't solve the issue however 17:18:51 wb ais523 17:18:55 Sure, but it still should be like that. 17:19:00 fizzie, yes 17:19:29 still, off by one on FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X I guess 17:19:42 ty ehird 17:19:55 brb, freezing doesn't help me think 17:19:55 In any case, you could've done it as a 2d array and then the compiler would do the complicated "y*width+x" part for you. Not that it buys much more than a bit of syntax. 17:19:56 * ehird considers scribting 17:20:08 fizzie: Does gcc optimize that? 17:20:11 I doubt it. 17:20:19 ehird: it's identical code both ways 17:20:24 Oh, right. 17:20:26 Of course 17:20:30 even without optimisation, it comes to the same thing... 17:34:01 ais523, is it? it seems about 0.010 seconds slower 17:34:40 AnMaster: x[a][b] and x[a+b*SOMECONSTANT] should become the same code 17:39:08 -!- AnMaster has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:40:52 -!- AnMaster has joined. 17:41:44 hm 17:42:17 ais523, about speed: right, was using wrong test values 17:46:23 Of course with a 2d array the initialization is a tiny bit uglier; either a nested for loop or walking a pointer through it. 17:46:30 yes 17:46:42 and I fixed the off by one error now 17:47:59 one issue is that this thing with offset to have some negative in the static array... what about signed overflow 17:48:07 that is undef after all 17:48:41 you can check the offset isn't negative 17:48:43 x = position->x + FUNGESPACE_STATIC_OFFSET_X; // where position->x is a signed integer 17:48:57 AnMaster: why aren't you checking before you do that 17:49:04 I don't see how you can avoid a buffer overflow otherwise 17:49:04 I should be :P 17:49:09 um what? 17:49:25 well, if you're only checking the result of the multiplication 17:49:33 you might have really weird x and y which end up somewhere inside the array 17:49:41 ais523: It's easier to check [0, N] than [-N1, N2]. 17:49:43 ais523, I just add an offset to the coords so that some of negative fungespace is also in the static array 17:49:48 ah, ok 17:50:13 in that case, given the way fungespace wraps, cast position->x to unsigned first, and work with unsigned numbers 17:51:05 hm that would depend on the system using two-complement 17:51:38 AnMaster: nope 17:51:42 Was it guaranteed that "unsigned int" is large enough to contain all "int" values? I guess it was. 17:51:47 cast to unsigned works as if you were using twos-complement 17:51:51 regardless of what you were actually using 17:52:39 Also: you can cast it to unsigned and use those for the hash-table keys no matter what happens to the integer values, really. It's not like the hash table cares about it. 17:53:22 lets say I have 1024*1024 as static, then this offset is added to move the static space to include a bit of negative funge space too. I then check if the resulting coordinates are within the static funge space, if yes I use that to access it, if not I use original coordinates for the hash library 17:53:27 17:53:28 brb 17:53:59 fizzie, hm the issue I'm concerned about is that adding the offset overflows it, but yeah I guess that will work 17:54:12 Well, you should be able to do that simply as "x = (unsigned)position->x + offset;" 17:54:29 Then the overflow will not invoke the nose-demons. 17:55:27 And the cast-to-unsigned is guaranteed to do the "right thing", so that -1 ends up being RANGE-1. 17:55:41 * AnMaster tests 17:57:21 warning: comparison of unsigned expression >= 0 is always true. right... means I can actually remove part of the check for if it is in static array space 17:57:31 yes 17:59:47 It's the equivalent of the if ((unsigned)x < N) style of testing. And I guess it's pretty clear, but personally not any clearer than bitmasking. Maybe I'm just irrationally fond of bitwise operations. 18:01:03 fizzie: (unsigned)x < N works even if N isn't a power of 2 18:01:28 real 0m0.052s 18:01:29 whoo 18:01:37 for mycology 18:02:13 AnMaster: is that including all the file I/O? 18:02:19 256x1024 with offset 16x16 18:02:20 ais523, yes 18:02:50 AnMaster: you're really messing with Deewiant's "assuming working negative funge-space" there 18:03:07 ais523, it will work, outside the static array a hash library is used 18:03:18 if I enable sandbox mode (where all file IO except initial loading is forbidden): 18:03:21 real 0m0.031s 18:03:35 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:04:24 that disables i, o, =, restricts the env vars in y to a subset, disables FILE, SOCK, SCKE, DIRF, PERL 18:04:59 oh yes TURT which does file IO to a fixed name is allowed 18:05:06 (cfunge_TURT.svg) 18:05:14 disabling PERL probably halves the time on windows :-P 18:05:29 wb ehird 18:06:07 Deewiant: you should get Mycology to test negative funge-space at -lots,-lots rather than -1,-1 18:06:08 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:06:26 as AnMaster's special-casing negative fungespace 16 chars to the left of and above the origin 18:06:34 which is clearly cheating... 18:06:46 ais523: I can't assume that a reasonable-time algorithm is implemented 18:06:47 ais523, lots,lots will work. just slower 18:07:03 since it will use the hash table, instead of the static array 18:07:09 Deewiant: why don't you check lots,lots in Mycology, by the way 18:07:20 to verify that implementations are in fact using fungespace sensibly? 18:07:21 ais523: same reason: if it's just one big dynamic array, for instance 18:07:38 Deewiant: doesn't the Funge-98 spec imply it shouldn't be? 18:07:47 no, it just says that it should work 18:07:50 which it of course does 18:07:53 but not in any reasonable time 18:07:56 if done that way, that is 18:08:04 even if you go to (4000000000,4000000000)? 18:08:10 that would be out of the memory space of most computers 18:08:17 yeah, but it would work on some computers 18:08:18 *even if you go to (2000000000,2000000000)? 18:08:24 the algorithm itself is sound 18:08:24 yet it's a legit funge-space location 18:08:58 this can't be right... 18:09:33 ais523: I could equally well have a file with 4294967295 bytes in it and complain if it can't be loaded as it's a legit funge program ;-) 18:10:05 Deewiant: wow, you found a bug in cfunge 18:10:14 or possibly in the standard 18:10:26 maybe Funge-108 should have "implementation limits" like the C standard does 18:10:34 ais523: "If the underlying memory mechanism cannot provide this (e.g. no more memory is available to be allocated,) the interpreter should complain with an error and do what it can to recover, (but not necessarily gracefully)." 18:10:42 ah, ok 18:10:51 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:11:05 so basically the program 'echo "out of memory"' is a valid funge-98 interpreter 18:11:25 awesome underlying memory mechanism :) 18:11:32 :-P 18:11:54 ehird, about the memory usage being less, I think that isn't correct. Seems the valgrind tool massif doesn't include static variables, only heap 18:12:15 * 2008-10-29: upgraded to nomalloc 0.76 to fix some OOM errors 18:13:01 ais523: I could equally well have a file with 4294967295 bytes in it and complain if it can't be loaded as it's a legit funge program ;-) <-- hm? 18:13:18 AnMaster: it's about programs which are too big to fit in memory 18:13:22 yet are legit Funge programs 18:14:01 that is INT_MAX for 32-bit int isn't it? 18:14:09 UINT_MAX 18:14:14 for 32-bit int 18:14:25 or, to be simple about it, 2^32-1. 18:14:29 well. Get a 64-bit machine, get lots of ram 18:14:30 :P 18:14:36 then it should work 18:14:48 may take a few minutes to load I guess 18:16:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | stdin - keyboard. 18:17:09 ais523, also what about truly infinite funge spaces? it would only fail when the coordinate itself doesn't fit in memory 18:17:15 bignum in other words 18:17:56 heh, upon seeing that topic I interpreted the - as the stdin and wondered what the keyboard was doing 18:18:01 optbot: fungot: say something 18:18:02 ais523: * feesh starts off fbf 18:18:02 ais523: s/ tru/ try/ has anyone on here used mod_scheme?. yarly' without ' orly' or ' spec' is that 18:18:19 optbot: fungot: say something 18:18:19 ais523: such as? i maintain my curiousity. i really do 18:18:19 ais523: case 0: 18:18:29 ^talk 18:18:29 optbot: I want to talk with you, because this guy here, just above me, asked me to do it. 18:18:29 fungot: Obey Newton's laws or face elongation! 18:18:30 optbot: later folks, thanks for you help :) 18:18:30 fungot: And mutter about how my college decided to ask for roommate requests, only to completely ignore them. 18:18:30 optbot: i couldn't figure that out, not a quasiquote. 18:18:31 fungot: it it tells me not to look at some things 18:18:31 optbot: mitä saa fnord sokea, fnord ja fnord." 3.0. 18:18:32 fungot: ~ps help 18:18:32 optbot: a couple weeks ago, my first case if ( ( a b) 18:18:32 fungot: You should put a gaping security hole into EgoBot in case this happens again. 18:18:40 ^show talk 18:18:41 (opt)(bot: I want to talk with you, because this guy here, just above me, asked me to do it.)~SS 18:18:49 haha 18:19:06 ~SS can be abbreviated to *S, btw 18:19:35 fungot: You should put a gaping security hole into EgoBot in case this happens again. 18:19:35 ais523: well mit has the whole fnord range. 18:19:35 ais523: everyone would have to ask me for a password then? 18:19:50 what a great line, I wonder who said it originally? 18:23:03 oh cool, icc decided to vectorise the loop that fills the static variable with spaces. 18:23:11 Guess gcc does that too 18:25:26 fungot: optbot: mitä saa fnord sokea, fnord ja fnord." 3.0. <<< fizzie: finnish from where? 18:25:26 oklopol: And remember that MemoServ + pastebin = email :-) 18:25:27 oklopol: well i can, my ass is not dumb... a would do ' math with side effects. severe stomach ache is among those " contact your doctor immediately" effects. and i'm not particularly interested in helping, then. 18:25:28 * AnMaster pushes the static array code. 18:25:37 done 18:25:51 ehird, want a new tarball for last code? 18:25:58 with the static array bit 18:26:44 ehird, if you do: http://omploader.org/vdmt4 is a tar.bz2 of r461 18:28:32 back 18:28:52 ehird, if you do: http://omploader.org/vdmt4 is a tar.bz2 of r461 <-- contains the static array stuff. 18:40:04 fizzie, you may want to try last cfunge 18:40:36 I will, later tonight. 18:42:04 last cfunge? 18:42:17 oklopol: latest. 18:42:25 even though last is incorrect 18:42:25 whatever 18:42:40 yeah i know what he meant 18:42:46 i'm just being a bum 18:42:48 :-) 18:43:04 Bumtsibum. 18:43:15 really i wanted to make some joke about cfunge officially being cancelled 18:43:19 but my head hurts 18:43:21 and i can't pun. 18:43:42 fizzie: where's the finnish from? 18:46:14 WOOP WOOP! All Google accounts are now OpenIDs: http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/10/29/your-gmail-account-is-now-an-openid/ 18:47:17 oklopol: The word "bum" just reminded me. I don't know the etymology of it. 18:47:28 I read "bumtsibum" as "bum shit bum". 18:47:33 Just letting you know. 18:47:49 ehird: I was referring to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BumtsiBum! 18:47:55 Although that article is quite stubby. 18:48:04 fizzie: yeah but the other finnish. 18:48:10 I thought you meant bum-tish-dum 18:48:12 Rimshot. 18:51:47 -!- mbishop_ has changed nick to mbishop. 19:02:01 oklopol: *Oh*, that Finnish. I didn't read the backscroll much. 19:02:46 oklopol: I have my personal ircnet/#douglasadams channel logs in the mix too. It's a mostly English channel, but there have been some discussions in Finnish. It's curious that the word "sokea", for example, must appear at least twice somewhere. 19:03:34 Without the fnords, the original question indeed appeared on that channel and was: "Mitä saa joululahjaksi sokea, mykkä ja kuuro pikkutyttö?" 19:04:00 (And the answer was "Syövän." I'm not sure what the point was there.) 19:04:14 translation? 19:04:29 "What does a blind, mute and deaf little girl get for christmas? Cancer." 19:04:53 XD 19:08:17 The thing had zero context around it, so I have no clue what the point was there. 19:16:12 umm, that's tons of funny 19:17:37 Having a conversation with the bot again: 19:17:38 20:17:04 fungot: How do you do! 19:17:38 20:17:04 fizzie: usually i depress myself by reading old logs 19:17:51 I guess it doesn't really have much else to read. 19:18:04 can it inspect its own source? 19:18:31 Sure, it's there in the Funge-space. And it does have read privileges to the source file, too. 19:18:41 oklopol: Markov-chaining Befunge would be weird 19:18:51 especially as it's not obvious what direction to read it in 19:19:28 oh man 19:19:28 fizzie 19:19:31 I guess there's now quite a mess of stuff to read. Although they're in the built language model files, which aren't exactly made for reading either, given that they lack all kinds of structure. 19:19:35 make fungot's text database ITS OWN SOURCE 19:19:36 ehird: sisc just ought to support scsh's delimited reader library. srfis help, but it doesn't 19:34:20 fizzie, you can't update cfunge right now, datacenter issues 19:34:32 so the server it is hosted down is unreachable 19:34:43 * AnMaster haven't got any info about ETA yet :/ 19:34:51 hasn't* 19:47:54 -!- Corun has joined. 19:50:12 -!- GiveMeMony has joined. 20:04:17 -!- cmeme has joined. 20:04:36 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:05:23 -!- cmeme has joined. 20:08:31 -!- M0ny has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:12:29 -!- jix has joined. 20:13:24 -!- GiveMeMony has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:21:35 -!- olsner has joined. 21:01:03 ehird, there? 21:01:41 yes. 21:05:02 that's a nice short conversation... 21:07:18 very zen 21:07:33 sounds like a mezzawhateveritis comic 21:07:35 so, how's it oging? 21:07:55 not very well atm, I haven't done anything useful in ages 21:08:10 and I have 2 projects I actually have to work on for university, both of which are arguably eso 21:09:53 I got handed the dubious honour of maintaining yet another messy (although a mercifully small) pile of Perl, because the person who's so far been "responsible" for it is leaving for greener (i.e. more $$$s than in the academic circles) pastures. 21:10:15 fizzie: more $$$s than Perl? 21:10:24 Perl is full of dollars, due to using them as the sigil for scalars 21:10:40 Okay, more €€€, then. 21:11:55 I wonder if there already is a BrainFuck isomorph that uses only various currency symbols as commands, with a punny money-themed name. 21:12:14 heh 21:12:24 that's probably the rule number whatever of esolangs 21:12:26 ehird, so how goes stuff? 21:12:34 kinda sucks for me too, trying to start this programming project, the problem is the description of what i'm supposed to do is really vague. and i hate thinking, unless the thing i'm thinking about is fully IO-less 21:12:35 "There is a Brainfuck deriviative of it. No exceptions." 21:12:37 assuming you saw that updated tarball 21:12:38 AnMaster: wut 21:12:51 wvt 21:13:37 oklopol: Well, re the Perl mess, I also have a feature request for it. The "requirements" from the "customer" are two words ("forced segmentation") and no-one seems to know what they want; I don't even know who "they" are. 21:13:50 ehird, well I don't blame you if you stopped doing it. I was talking about that stuff you said you did on the hash library 21:13:52 :) 21:13:58 oh, right. 21:14:08 fizzie: that's one crazily ambiguous requirement 21:14:11 why don't you ask them what it means? 21:14:21 ehird, far from as critical now when the static array handles most 21:14:23 ais523: Because I don't know who wanted the feature. :p 21:14:42 ais523: It's less ambiguous in context, but I still don't know what exactly it is they want. 21:14:50 fizzie, moving the underload stuff around would probably help, profiling said it went outside the static stuff for a bit 21:14:59 fizzie: sounds even worse than mine. 21:15:05 AnMaster: How large is your static array, then? 21:15:16 AnMaster: any day now I expect you to put out a version of Mycology optimised for cfunge 21:15:19 512x1024, offset 64,64 21:15:23 my problem is more that i don't want to actually read the given code/documentation, because i don't want to use thinking time for this. 21:15:24 ais523, haha 21:16:23 ais523, the fact is however that fizzie use cfunge because it is faster/better/have fewer odd limits than rc/funge. So if he optimise it for cfunge he can run even longer bf/unlambda programs 21:16:27 complaining/idling time is worth using on it though, no question. 21:16:32 which I thought he wanted 21:16:44 fizzie, I could make it larger I guess (1024x1024) 21:17:09 Well, the Underload stack will go past -64 pretty easily. It's reasonably easy to move, though... incidentally, which one do you think is faster in your implementation: something like 'ff*' compared to '98g'? 21:17:15 would mean 4 or 8 mb static array (instead of 2 or 4) 21:17:38 ff* should definitely be faster 21:17:47 Would assume so, yes. 21:17:47 fizzie, ff* and 98g are not equivalent. 21:17:56 They are if I do ff*98p first. 21:18:00 well yeah 21:18:06 and stack should be quite fast 21:18:18 lookup table heh, no that would most likely be slower 21:18:55 What about aaa** and 98g, then? Keeping in mind that the first one needs to fetch the extra instructions from the Funge-Space too. 21:19:35 in other news life.bf in my profiled cfunge build is now so fast that patterns that repeat in cycles of 4 seem to be fixed on my monitor to one of the patterns. 21:19:36 :P 21:20:01 fizzie, well I don't know 21:20:25 stack is pretty fast. but if you want to test it I recommend writing a short program that loops over that or such 21:21:46 I can easily move the Underload stack up a few hundred bytes by some tweaks followed by changing the 0`|-style stack underflow checks to ff*`|s, but if I want to move it "higher" (well, more to the right) than that I need to use either aaa** or g to get the limit to compare against. 21:22:11 fizzie, however... aaa** 5 funge-fetch, 4 pop 2 push 21:22:31 98g, 4 funge-fetch, 2 push 2 pop 21:22:45 so logically it should be faster 21:23:24 brb 1hr 21:24:06 fizzie, also I could move the space a bit I guess if needed. It is easy for you to adjust the constants anyway, src/funge-space/funge-space.c lines 71-74 21:25:04 I guess, but it's all such guesswork when caches and such are involved. Also I have no clue how much stack a "typical" Underload program uses. Possibly it might even be faster to move the stack around a bit to keep the top parts in the "fast memory" always, but that's really too messy. 21:25:12 fizzie, remember that the static array would be 4 * FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X * FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y bytes on a 32-bit funge build 21:25:59 fizzie, and yeah due to caches I don't know about the speed either, so better profile it 21:26:15 it is near impossible to predict 21:26:30 In the good old days you could just count cycles. :p 21:26:56 better profile it, writing a short program that does it a few thousand/million times. 21:27:41 fizzie, also it may differ on your cpu 21:27:52 since I got a 64-bit sempron, at 2 GHz 21:28:00 with a 128 kb L2 cache iirc 21:28:15 which is smaller than the cache of the Pentium 3 I have in another computer 21:28:47 still I bet you can execute longer programs already 21:28:51 ^show 21:28:51 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source bf cat talk test greet 21:29:07 ^ul (:^):^ 21:29:09 ...out of time! 21:29:23 fizzie, if you care to update, and see how long before it says out of time 21:29:37 +ul (:^):^ 21:29:38 ...out of time! 21:29:39 Well, I do all my fungot development on this 'eris' box (which is an Athlon 64 X2 5600+ -- the names are quite ridiculous) while the fungot in here actually runs on a 1400 MHz Pentium-M. 21:29:40 should be interesting 21:29:40 fizzie: s/ less/ fnord 21:29:49 thutubot's out of time is faster or slower depending on how much memory use there is 21:30:01 ^ul (:^):^ 21:30:03 ...out of time! 21:30:05 ^ul (:^):^ 21:30:07 ...out of time! 21:30:19 ^ul (::^)::^ 21:30:21 ...too much stack! 21:30:23 ^ul (::^):^ 21:30:25 ...too much stack! 21:30:28 hm right 21:30:29 Sure, I guess I could update it; but the ^ul out-of-time limit really depends on the program, since it counts Underload instructions which can take a very variable amount of time. 21:30:47 fizzie, still for the same program it should be faster 21:30:49 ^ul ((fooooo):::***!:^):^ 21:30:50 ...out of time! 21:30:54 since there would be fewer cycles 21:31:00 Well, that, sure. 21:31:00 err 21:31:04 same number of cycles 21:31:07 ^ul (x)(~:*~:^):^ 21:31:08 ...too much stack! 21:31:08 but faster done 21:31:18 since the actual program code is in "fast funge space" 21:31:22 fungot: I take it "too much stack" depends on the number of bytes used on the stack 21:31:23 ais523: now consider that do-stuff might use a gc'd language to talk to a defective person. thanks for telling me about that paper has nothing to do 21:31:24 instead of "outer fungespace" 21:31:25 not the number of elements? 21:31:27 * AnMaster likes that name 21:31:35 ais523: Yes. 21:31:43 ais523: It's 10k bytes or so. 21:31:47 * oklopol likes it too 21:32:22 The time limit activates pretty fast for (:^):^ since it's such a simple program; might use a more complicated infiniloop for testing. 21:33:06 ^ul ((foobarbazquux):::***:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~!!:^):^ 21:33:09 ...out of time! 21:33:13 That one takes noticeably longer. 21:33:23 (At least when you're on the same Freenode server than fungot, anyway.) 21:33:24 fizzie: sorry for butting in, but that is fixed in the .deb now, 21:33:36 ^ul (x)(~(y)*~:^):^ 21:33:52 btw, that one would hold up Thutubot for ages too 21:33:52 ...out of time! 21:34:00 +ul (x)(~(y)*~:^):^ 21:34:13 * AnMaster tries last rc/funge 21:34:15 $ ./funge --help 21:34:15 Segmentation fault 21:34:18 ...out of time! 21:34:25 Well, I'll update the cfunge I have on momus and let's see how fast that particular program is. 21:34:54 AnMaster: presumably it isn't doing a C-INTERCAL and pretending to segfault when someone asks it for -help? 21:35:00 (Although quite a lot of the slowness comes from the large stack that extends out of the "fast space", I guess.) 21:35:04 ais523, no. 21:35:13 Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 21:35:13 0x00000035fae73552 in strcmp () from /lib/libc.so.6 21:35:14 haha 21:35:23 It has a "-h" flag, not "--help"; but I don't think I've used to get segfault out of it. 21:35:48 well 21:35:59 I always wondered why C-INTERCAL did that, by the way 21:36:10 I took out the delay while it was pretending to dump core as it got on my nerves 21:36:20 but it's still the only "legit" way to get an internal-error message 21:36:35 nice it locks up in SUBR in mycology too 21:36:38 GOOD: R transfers stack elements correctly 21:36:38 GOOD: set mode with A 21:36:39 ^C 21:37:22 ah using -Y worked 21:37:24 wonder why 21:37:39 $ time ./funge -Y ~/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/mycology.b98 &>/dev/null 21:37:39 real 0m0.769s 21:37:40 that is slow 21:37:41 :D 21:38:16 what does -Y do on RC/Funge? 21:38:25 enables standards-compliant 'y' behaviour 21:38:26 makes y command conform to standard 21:38:29 ah, ok 21:38:34 oh it's makefile ignore CFLAGS 21:38:37 what's the non-standards-compliant behaviour? 21:38:39 no wonder it was that slow 21:38:44 * AnMaster adds -O2 -march=k8 21:38:52 ah much better 21:38:55 real 0m0.218s 21:39:09 still far from as good as cfunge before static even 21:39:20 ais523: instead of 'by' pushing the 11th stack element, it pushes the 11th 'logical' element (for instance the delta of the IP) 21:39:36 (as opposed to the y-component of the delta) 21:39:38 IMO, that makes more sense 21:39:48 also this really makes me wonder wtf he was doing: 21:39:49 mterm.c:(.text+0x14): warning: the `gets' function is dangerous and should not be used. 21:39:57 wtf? 21:40:02 ais523, from rc/funge 21:40:02 actually, W T F ???? 21:40:05 when linking 21:40:06 someone used gets? 21:40:12 rc/funge yes 21:40:17 I seen it once before, mosaic 21:40:26 but that was OLD 21:40:32 Heh, actually I think fungot's currently running on a 64-bit cfunge build, accidentally. 21:40:32 rc/funge is almost as old :-P 21:40:32 fizzie: ok i lied. there are some formatting issues and missing sections.) 21:40:37 but this one, I remember pointing it out before 21:40:41 and he hasn't fixed it 21:40:58 huh wait 21:41:01 Let's try 32-bit r462. 21:41:03 there are two downloads? 21:41:09 v2 and v1? 21:41:09 ^raw QUIT :funkity-hunkity 21:41:09 -!- fungot has quit ("funkity-hunkity"). 21:41:15 * AnMaster tries v2 21:41:56 mterm.c:(.text+0x39): warning: the `gets' function is dangerous and should not be used. 21:41:59 still that in v2 21:42:06 -!- fungot has joined. 21:42:11 oh and v2 fails in SOCK 21:42:12 odd 21:42:13 wb fungot 21:42:14 ais523: but then again it might". that might give it a url. 21:42:16 GOOD: P pushed nonzero for socket with data 21:42:16 UNDEF: 0"1.0.0.721"H pushed 0 21:42:16 GOOD: P pushed 0 for socket without data 21:42:16 GOOD: P pushed nonzero for socket with data 21:42:16 UNDEF: 0"1.0.0.721"H pushed 0 21:42:19 loop like that 21:42:34 AnMaster: does cfunge do SOCK yet, and will it in the future? 21:42:51 ais523: Do you mean efunge or what? 21:42:57 ais523, cfunge does, or fungot wouldn't work 21:42:58 AnMaster: that's what they're trained to do xor have the same semantics, though. ;p ( yeah, sue me, but i'd really like it. good example: 21:43:01 I meant cfunge 21:43:04 efunge may in the future 21:43:07 Given that fungot's running on cfunge, it's a safe bet to say it does SOCK. 21:43:07 fizzie: i have a lot of things 21:43:12 fungot: I'm sure you do. 21:43:12 fizzie: uni tübingen is actively working on hills, so expect php errors, and is it the most recent officially sanctioned one. 21:43:19 ^ul ((foobarbazquux):::***:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~!!:^):^ 21:43:20 ...out of time! 21:43:24 ^ul (x)(~:*~:^):^ 21:43:24 ...too much stack! 21:43:25 faster? 21:43:28 fizzie: I didn't realise you were doing it like that, Thutu has no network access but Thutu works fine 21:43:33 *Thutubot 21:43:37 ^ul (x)(~(y)*~:^):^ 21:43:44 ...out of time! 21:43:45 that one's got it thinking again 21:43:51 but not for all that long 21:43:59 probably you could raise the time limit again 21:44:14 well also it probably went outside fast space 21:44:38 * AnMaster ponders adding a diagnosis (build option) mode that warns when access is done in outer space 21:44:40 Yes, it's noticeably faster; now it's a good question how much of the speedup comes from the 32-bit build (I think the previous one was accidentally 64-bit) and how much from the space-change. 21:44:45 for helping making funge programs fast 21:45:05 fizzie, you could try again with 64-bit 21:45:09 AnMaster: have a command-line option, and the option to not compile that option into the interp itself 21:45:10 also ./cfunge -f 21:45:11 to see 21:45:17 what type of build 21:45:22 actually, do that for all your command-line options 21:45:25 it should tell you if it is 32-bit or 64-bit 21:45:27 so you can save time not parsing them if necessary 21:45:40 ais523, issue: more ifs to check at runtime == slowdown 21:45:48 at least in something run as often as funge space access 21:45:59 ah wait 21:46:02 * Cell size is 64 bits (8 bytes). 21:46:03 you said the other way 21:46:07 fizzie, there you are then 21:46:09 (For the previous one, that is.) 21:46:14 AnMaster: I said have them as compile-time settings 21:46:16 as in, #defines 21:46:22 so you can #define all the command line args out of the program 21:46:38 ais523, well you can disable tracing -t if you want at compile time 21:46:39 :P 21:46:51 yes, do that for all the args at compile tim 21:46:53 *time 21:46:56 to save a marginal amount of runtime 21:47:07 UUNNDDEEFF:: TT aafftteerr MM ppuusshheedd 122 123 ^C <-- nice one from rc/funge on ./funge -Y --help mycology.b98 21:47:20 how did that happen? 21:47:23 multithreading chaos? 21:47:26 ais523, no clue, it was rc/funge 21:47:30 or TRDS gone mad? 21:47:39 ais523, NO clue, I don't PLAN to debug rc/funge 21:47:44 If I really wanted to make fungot fast, I'd run it with some JITting system; it doesn't ever do any self-modification, and really only uses cardinal directions, so static code analysis + constant-folding + JIT complication should make it fearsomely fast. 21:47:44 fizzie: gcc -g -wall -shared c/ fnord 21:47:45 I have looked at it's code before 21:47:52 nothing will make me want to do it again 21:48:04 hahaha 21:48:27 I've looked at it once or twice to trace down some issues. I've seen worse code. 21:48:54 oh using -S -S - Suppress summary 21:48:55 cause it too 21:48:56 wtf 21:49:05 I bet there is memory corruption 21:49:20 oooh 21:49:22 ./funge -Y -S ~/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/mycology.b98 21:49:23 doesn 21:49:25 doesnt* 21:49:26 but 21:49:29 ./funge -YS ~/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/mycology.b98 21:49:30 does 21:49:34 now THAT is buggy 21:49:49 cfunge uses getopt() 21:49:59 which just works 21:50:12 and doesn't segfault randomly 21:50:48 fizzie, the main issue isn't horrible coding style, the main issue is that it is buggy and have a bad (but not horrible) coding style 21:51:35 I bet if I ran the fuzz test script from cfunge on it it would just totally fail. While nowdays cfunge rarely fails in that except for OOM conditions (that cfunge doesn't always handle cleanly) 21:51:44 and I try to fix all those bugs 21:52:21 AnMaster: C-INTERCAL uses getopt on systems that have it, but it has its own alternate version for systems that don't 21:53:08 ais523, ah right, remember I don't care about systems that don't implement POSIX ;P 21:53:50 I only depend on POSIX.1-2001, though POSIX.1-2008 was ratified last month iir 21:53:51 iirc* 21:54:09 which shows I still care about backward compatibility~~~ 21:54:55 ah yes "Sep 26 2008: The IEEE has approved the document as IEEE Std 1003.1-2008" (http://www.opengroup.org/austin/) 21:55:05 POSIX is an IEEE standard? 21:55:07 I didn't know that 21:55:12 ais523, yes it is 21:56:50 ais523, anyway hopefully cfunge should work on any POSIX.1-2001 system that supports the memory mapped file option. Possibly the *build system* won't, but the code itself should, and if it doesn't I shall definitely try to fix it it if possible. 21:57:34 "Remote/Funge - A new fingerprint FRPC has been added that allows a funge program to contact and execute funge procedures on remote funge servers." <-- Mike Riley has really gone nuts 21:57:36 really 21:57:57 :D 21:57:59 why not, that's an interesting idea for a fungerprint... 21:58:01 remote funge servers 21:58:03 awesome 21:58:13 (I noticed the typo, but decided not to fix it because I liked it) 21:58:27 hah 21:59:03 it isn't documented however 21:59:10 in either official fingerprints or the manual 21:59:48 mentioned on http://www.rcfunge98.com/ though 21:59:51 Yes, you just need to guess. 22:00:02 ah, it has its own domain name? 22:00:02 nothing new with that 22:00:08 Is it implemented yet, though? 22:00:22 fizzie, it says "has been added" 22:00:24 "I am the original author of Rc/Funge-98, which was one of the first fully-compliant Funge-98 implementations." <--- was it ever fully-compliant? 22:00:33 ais523, not that I know 22:00:50 the last one isn't fully, the v1 one gets to the end with -Y 22:01:04 at certain times it has passed mycology I know 22:01:14 but that was way after cfunge did 22:01:21 and ccbi 22:01:34 So it says, but the character sequence "frpc" doesn't appear in the beta release. 22:01:43 well, *shrug* 22:01:45 It might be very "under construction" right now. 22:01:59 it would be easy to code in erlang, in an actually fast way 22:02:02 not that I plan to 22:02:20 STRN, SOCK, SCKE and a few more yes, but most of his last ones: no thanks 22:02:26 latest* 22:04:23 The docs do leave something to be desired. The SGNL fingerprint has this X instruction: "X (c -- ) Set current cell to character c -- Whatever X becomes has no effect on the ip that triggered it." 22:04:31 ok wtf is that IPMD 22:04:49 fizzie: I think I can guess what that does, though 22:04:58 fizzie, he didn't even make SNGL, iirc that rc/funge based fork did 22:05:02 ais523: Oh, *right*. 22:05:08 ais523: So can I now that I reread it. 22:06:34 what the heck is IPMD, it is implemented, but not documented 22:06:42 It's in the manual. 22:06:46 http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcfunge2_manual.html#IPMD 22:06:53 ah found it 22:07:15 it changes dimension count for current program? 22:07:16 !? 22:07:18 yes 22:07:30 oh right 22:07:33 it lets you use a sub-Fungespace of your current fungespace to run a funge of lesser dimension 22:07:34 not that insane really 22:07:37 AFAICT 22:07:48 what about higher? 22:08:06 higher works too apparently 22:08:17 although ofc it's all blank to start with because you didn't load a program into there 22:09:03 well yeah 22:11:06 I still haven't sent any ATHR draft to Mike Riley.... I don't want to offend him with such a well documented fingerprint 22:11:08 :D 22:12:40 I keep seeing references to Funge-108. Is that "Funge-98 now that we've actually figured how k and stuff works"? 22:12:58 Azstal, yes and a bit more, it is a draft of mine 22:13:06 I'm quite sure I linked you to it before? 22:13:31 did you? 22:13:38 anyway..., considering how buggy rc/funge is there are currently only two really good implementations I'd say: CCBI (lots of features, ok speed most of the time) and cfunge (fewer features, tweaked for speed). efunge still lacks too many features and is too experimental to qualify 22:13:47 Azstal, or someone with a similar nick 22:14:08 http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge-108/ <-- select your preferred file format 22:14:22 (pdf or the lyx source file) 22:14:38 ah, I see 22:15:25 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:16:02 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal. 22:22:04 ^bf --------------[.] 22:22:04 ... 22:22:47 ^ul (x)(~(y)*~:^):^ 22:22:54 ...out of time! 22:23:05 ^ul ((ò)S:^):^ 22:23:05 òòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòò ...too much output! 22:23:10 +ul ((ò)S:^):^ 22:23:10 òòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòò ...too much output! 22:23:17 +ul (x)(~(y)*~:^):^ 22:23:20 ^ul (x)(~(y)*~:^):^ 22:23:26 ...out of time! 22:23:33 ...out of time! 22:23:33 * AnMaster waits on thutubot 22:23:35 ah 22:23:38 thutubot has a lower limit too I think, it's just slow when a lot of memory's used 22:23:52 right 22:24:22 ais523, what is the memory growth of that function? 22:24:30 linear? 22:24:41 yes 22:24:47 It appends one 'y' each round. 22:24:48 too slow to trigger out-of-memory checks 22:24:52 but fast enough to cause problems 22:24:53 ah 22:25:21 fizzie, in what direction does the ul stack grow? 22:25:25 +ul (x)(~(yy)*~:^):^ 22:25:26 ^ul (x)(~(yy)*~:^):^ 22:25:39 ...out of time! 22:25:46 AnMaster: Left, towards the negative X direction; didn't we have this talk already? 22:25:55 fizzie, I may have forgotten 22:25:57 ...out of time! 22:25:57 sorry 22:26:13 I think that was the argument for moving it right some characters. 22:26:18 Although that might've been mostly with ehird. 22:26:19 +ul (x)(~(yyy)*~:^):^ 22:26:23 ^ul (x)(~(yyy)*~:^):^ 22:26:28 fizzie, is there any special reason to not make it grow right? or down? 22:26:44 ...out of time! 22:26:45 and with down I mean in negative x but positive y 22:26:47 AnMaster: something to do with the way STRN worked, IIRC 22:26:52 hm 22:26:56 AnMaster: STRN's fixed delta, primarily. It's easiest when I can pop a string simply by applying G to the current top-of-stack. 22:27:04 ...out of time! 22:27:10 +ul (x)(~(yyyy)*~:^):^ 22:27:10 fizzie, what about JSTR hm 22:27:13 ^ul (x)(~(yyyy)*~:^):^ 22:27:24 I'm not sure I want to bother dealing with that. 22:27:30 ah right 22:27:44 ...out of time! 22:27:49 hmm.... seems a good balance, I'm slowing down both bots a lot now 22:27:56 I'll try with 8 ys next, I think 22:28:08 ...too much memory used! 22:28:27 just on fungot though, this already hits thutubot's memory limit 22:28:28 ais523: let me know if it's cargo cult programming doing it is incorrect. the version at http://www.standarddeviance.com/ sigma.html, but i 22:28:32 ^ul (x)(~(yyyyyyyy)*~:^):^ 22:28:38 Also JSTR (well, according to rc-funge manual) pops fixed-length strings. Although I guess there's nothing wrong in the gnirtsN format, compared to 0gnirts. 22:29:10 antigolf challenge: see how long you can make fungot run before erroring out 22:29:15 ...too much stack! 22:29:15 ais523: and those magic identifiers are a pain 22:29:20 a sort of busy beaver 22:29:25 ^ul (x)(~(yyyyyyy)*~:^):^ 22:29:26 fungot, "cargo cult programming"? 22:29:47 AnMaster: that's to do with carrying on programming techniques even though you have no idea why they work 22:29:51 leads to a lot of strange code 22:30:08 ah ok 22:30:13 ...too much stack! 22:30:14 AnMaster: no: see yes 22:30:16 ais523: fungot's limits are ffaa*** instructions, cd*:* bytes of stack, and cd*:* bytes of extending the program leftwards from the starting point. 22:30:16 fizzie: like short int short 22:30:23 ^ul (x)(~(yyyyyy)*~:^):^ 22:30:26 ais523, I just couldn't apply the "cargo cult" concept to "programming" 22:30:27 :P 22:30:50 So 22500 instructions and 24336 bytes. 22:31:07 AnMaster: no: see yes <-- was that from some dictionary? 22:31:12 ...out of time! 22:31:12 AnMaster: that might even be able to write stuff, but not quite. you still, presumably, because you can never die, they just never put things into the wrong window. 22:31:48 fizzie: does fungot break a botloop in ^ul, or only in things mentioning its name 22:31:48 ais523: fnord is not available for ppc? 22:32:11 ais523: Only in things mentioning it's name. We had a couple of +ul/^ul loops. 22:32:23 ais523: I think mine was shorter than... someone else's, though. 22:32:36 The "no: see yes" came from #scheme, they were teaching a factbot there. 22:33:03 fizzie, isn't there some TOYS instruction to read a block of funge space in a saner direction? 22:33:21 -!- jix has joined. 22:33:30 ^ul (Hi jix!)S 22:33:30 Hi jix! 22:34:30 AnMaster: Not a zero-terminated block, I think. And anyway, I would need instructions to specify the direction before every G/P. 0\01-\ is very ugly to write, since the delta needs to go below the starting-point. 22:34:34 ah right 22:34:52 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 22:34:52 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 22:34:52 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 22:34:52 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 22:34:53 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 22:34:53 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 22:34:53 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 22:34:53 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 22:34:54 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 22:34:54 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 22:34:54 -!- fungot has left (?). 22:34:54 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS 22:35:06 fizzie, time to make FGOT, functions for fungot ;) 22:35:17 Heh, now that fungot's so fast the loop gets going pretty rapidly. 22:35:24 -!- fungot has joined. 22:35:26 it's easier to do a much shorter looped quine than that, but that one has the advantage of being symmetrical 22:38:36 fizzie, you need ignore list yes 22:38:49 fizzie, and you can tweak static limits of funge space as I said 22:39:47 Well, I'll consider it. 22:40:31 But I can pretty easily stick the starting-point of the Underload stack to whatever I select as the largest positive X value, so that as much stack as possible (without moving it around) will fit. 22:41:24 fizzie, well largest positive X is 512-64, unless you tweak static limits 22:41:41 Also I've forgotten -march=pentium-m from the current build too. 22:41:44 and that would at least help for small programs 22:41:56 fizzie, cmake should keep that around? 22:42:03 I mean you don't have to reconfigure 22:42:11 just make should have worked 22:42:18 or ccmake . to edit current values 22:42:33 partial builds always work. I do it that way 22:43:28 :) 22:43:40 err incremental builds 22:43:41 I don't have bzr on the box I compiled that binary (since I might have some very different library versions on this box and fungot's actual home) so I just copy stuff around; didn't want to copy on top of old stuff. Although I guess I could've copied the build directory to the new revision. 22:43:42 fizzie: not bad. i think i should just sell or give away all the monsters and hit points and other silliness 22:45:25 heh? 22:45:36 Currently my "workflow" is bzr export ../cfunge_rXXX; cp ../cfunge_rXXX; patch -p1 << chroot.patch; cd ..; scp -r cfunge_rXXX iris:inst/ followed by building on iris. I guess I could streamline a bit. 22:45:50 And not <<, that was a typo. 22:46:02 what would << do? Append input? 22:46:13 maybe open the file for input but put the file pointer at the end of it 22:46:13 It's used in the < only really useful if it's a pipe or something 22:46:33 yes, I'm just trying to think up eso meanings for it by analogy with >> 22:46:43 well apart from heredoc I got no clue what the heck it would do 22:47:24 Seems like it does the heredoc semantics even if there's a space after '<<'. I've only seen it written "< fizzie, there is also the case of - 22:48:48 as in <<-END iirc 22:48:55 however I don't use heredoc often 22:48:58 isn't that a bash extension? 22:49:04 ais523, maybe 22:49:18 There's also << I'm the resident bash expert, not sh expert :P 22:49:25 It's a "herestring". 22:49:26 fizzie, <<< is here string 22:49:28 much more common 22:49:31 at least for me 22:49:37 and quite a lot more useful 22:49:46 avoids echo "$foo" | bar 22:50:01 bar <<< "$foo" 22:50:02 :) 22:53:19 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 22:54:25 -!- Corun_ has joined. 22:54:40 hm what about generating code at runtime? I mean... using something like llvm, to statically select branches that are fixed by command line options and such 22:55:01 could be interesting 22:55:07 not much speed difference I guess 22:55:35 maybe a Befunge compiler which statically analyses the code to figure out which bits have to be interpreted and which can be compiled? 22:55:51 ais523, isn't that undecidable? 22:56:05 well, you could err on the safe side 22:56:09 hm maybe 22:56:15 but it's easy enough to prove that certain bits of code won't be modified in many cases 22:56:22 and still have a fallback if it turns out you were wrong 22:56:32 e.g. fungot never modifies a bit of code that was in the program to start with 22:56:33 ais523: are we having fun hitchhiking to cincinnati or far rockaway!!" sort. i always found that to be a 22:56:34 source level annotation? 22:56:36 mabe 22:56:38 maybe* 22:56:55 Didn't I just say about using JIT with fungot? :p 22:56:56 fizzie: but most schemes have some ' unspecific' after things? 22:57:20 fizzie: this would be compile-time, not JIT 22:57:51 yes 22:58:02 however I doubt I could pull off such a thing 22:58:28 I am doubtful as to whether you really could prove that sort of thing in non-trivial programs without including a recompiler in the interpreter just in case someone goes and really modifies the program. 22:58:34 Assuming the programmer isn't helping you, of course. 22:58:43 well, you could trial-run the program 22:58:53 you start with an assumption "nothing is modified" and see where control flow can go 22:58:54 ais523, could be hard for something like fungot 22:58:55 AnMaster: if you want to see the solution of that was a jest, as there is very little known about the file, and an anonymous function 22:59:03 ais523, with SOCK and such 22:59:05 once you find something that contradicts that assumption, change your assumptions and try again 22:59:08 user input totally mess it up 22:59:10 it would be slow but I think it could work 22:59:19 and for user input, merely assume you could have got any input 22:59:28 ais523, say, you have user input and then you do a jump on said input 22:59:34 I've done something like that once; it used a "stack" that could contain uncertain values. 22:59:40 ais523, or it could have reflected 22:59:42 AnMaster: you could analyse that easily enough 22:59:44 on EOF 23:00:09 there are lots of situations to handle, luckily computers are good at handling lots of situations... 23:00:10 ais523, what about user input used as coordinates for p? 23:00:14 then you can't know ANYTHING 23:00:20 well, in that case you wouldn't know anything 23:00:25 so you couldn't optimise 23:00:35 ais523, and you need to know about all fingerprints 23:00:39 for that matter, ^code breaks compilation in the case of fungot 23:00:40 ais523: it is easy to fnord bf code in everywhere you'd want. rather than be spewed out onto one gargantuan monolith? or octopus? i can't escape it, eg. 23:00:42 and yes 23:00:51 still that idea about "XN"2( I had may be nice 23:00:53 The stack size could also be a bit uncertain; then it redid its analysis if it ended up in a previously analysed piece of code with a stack that didn't match the assumptions it used to have; in that case it just used assumptions vague enough to accord for both possibilities. 23:00:55 and a nice fingerprint name too 23:00:56 :) 23:01:26 fizzie, got a link to that thing? 23:01:28 a tracing jit might be easier 23:01:47 No. I'm not even sure I still have that thing any more. I seem to forget my projects quite easily. 23:02:04 fizzie, was it the graph generating one? 23:02:05 AnMaster: a 2-letter fingerprint? Such things don't exist! 23:02:20 ais523, oh yes they do 23:02:22 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:02:25 and so does more than 4 23:02:26 heh... what would be really amusing would be a 2-letter fingerprint which turned on 32-bit emulation mode for 16-bit Funges 23:02:48 ais523, afaik 16-bit funges have never existed 23:02:53 It was for a Java-based "compile Befunge to JVM bytecode" attempt, but I didn't get to the code-generating parts; I just did a C code generation output that didn't handle put/get at all. 23:03:07 AnMaster: it's legal to write a 16-bit Funge-98 interp, isn't it? 23:03:09 AnMaster: FBBI runs in DOS, no? it might be 16-bit 23:03:23 Deewiant, FBBI does? Didn't know 23:03:38 ais523, well you can't load any existing fingerprints 23:03:44 but apart from that I believe it is 23:03:50 don't know for sure 23:03:55 I made mine 16-bit for a laugh. It wasn't particularly good. 23:04:36 maybe I should make a 17-bit Funge interp, that uses one's complement 23:04:50 one's complement works slightly better if you have a prime number of bits, where 2^bits-1 is a Mersenne prime 23:05:08 and then implement a 17-bit fingerprint which turns on 34-bit emulation mode 23:05:42 ha 23:09:42 Found some traces of that Java thing, but nothing I'd bother "releasing" even as a "look at this cruft" tarball. It was reasonably clever, although not *really* clever; for example, I used to use a lot of "discard-ifs" (that is, use a | or a _ to both discard a (known) value and change direction) but it wasn't clever enough to realize that in :!#v_| the '|' if will always go up. 23:09:43 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:10:13 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:11:11 (Well, except if it happened to deduce the zero/nonzeroity of the value from something else. But it didn't realize that the result of the _-if already gives some information about the other values too, since they come from that :. 23:11:52 doing that properly could be quite had 23:11:54 hard* 23:15:14 Actually now that I look at the code, it probably *was* clever enough to handle the fact that in :#v_| the latter if would always go down. 23:15:15 fizzie, if anyone wrote _| would say the code was either meant for entering from two directions or was just silly 23:15:35 fizzie, well why don't you release it 23:15:40 -!- moozilla has joined. 23:15:40 doesn't _ pop its argument? 23:15:41 It's not silly: it's a nice way to combine $ and ^ (or v, depending on the case). 23:15:45 apart from your love for java I think it would be interesting 23:15:57 ais523: Yes, but often you need the value still, so you do a : before. 23:16:09 Then after the if you need to get rid of the duplicate which is no longer interesting. 23:16:11 ah, ok 23:16:27 fizzie, $ 23:16:28 :P 23:17:08 AnMaster: fizzie was talking about combining $ and ^ 23:17:10 The underload interp does quite a lot of :'*-#v_$ style code; but if you want to turn ^ immediately afterwards, you can save a character by using | instead of $^. 23:17:24 fizzie, hah right 23:17:25 anyway, one use for mixed _ and | would be in a Huffman decoder 23:17:31 you could make a decision tree out of _ | and spaces 23:17:53 heh 23:18:00 Using as little characters as possible is one goal for Befunge-writing; one that has not been very important in fungot. 23:18:01 fizzie: how efficient is thread creation/ starting in gambit? 32 bits?) and song notes match reality. 23:18:42 but Befunge uses all the characters 23:18:44 fizzie, well | would probably be faster, not sure 23:18:46 even middot, on occasion 23:18:55 ais523, only in IFFI 23:19:07 ais523, which doesn't really count for most other cases 23:19:12 yes, on occasion, like I said 23:19:22 oh well 23:19:28 the chars above 128 are reserved for proprietary interp features, after all... 23:19:49 Anyway, the :#v_| logic in the Java thing was pretty naive; : was done by pushing the same Value object twice on the stack, and after the _ (for the branch that went right) we went through the stack and altered any copies of the popped value there might be, which obviously completely breaks if you manipulate it with ~ or 'x- or something; even though you could still deduce something there. 23:20:19 ais523, well yeah 23:20:20 sounds like you need pointers, they help a lot in implementing that kind of thing 23:20:47 heh 23:23:37 Can't say I've really missed pointers in Java, since a "Foo x" for a user-defined Foo there is pretty much "Foo *x" in C/C++. 23:24:45 well erlang got references... But of course whatever they point to can't be modified 23:26:38 + it is not as easy to use 23:26:47 erlang:make_ref() then passing said reference around 23:27:03 wait no 23:27:06 that isn't the same 23:27:37 that is like UUID 23:27:42 * AnMaster confused it 23:29:45 well night 23:30:04 night 23:37:29 bakkk 2008-10-30: 00:07:07 back for a sec 00:07:15 http://rafb.net/p/wYc8k789.html <-- from rc/funge's main.c 00:07:24 proof that Riley is a bad programmer as well 00:07:33 (learn to use "continue" in C -_-) 00:08:17 wait... is that removing the program name from argv by comparing it against the name from a Version Management System? 00:08:20 and he drops the max index he found when parsing arguments 00:08:36 ais523, I don't know 00:08:38 also, that strcpy without allocating memory is suspicious 00:08:41 there are NO comments 00:08:49 and yes 00:08:51 it is 00:08:58 anyway, time to go home I think 00:08:59 bye 00:09:03 ais523, cfunge uses whatever getopt says is the last option 00:09:06 then strdups that 00:09:07 Additionally, why the fuck does he have argv and ArgV? 00:09:29 and you don't want to see the compare stuff above 00:09:34 he manages to crash on --help 00:09:37 no clue how 00:09:41 *what?!?* 00:09:41 bye everyone 00:09:42 also -YS != -Y -S 00:09:44 um 00:09:48 what is wrong with that code... 00:09:51 :| 00:09:54 pikhq, I think -YS cause memory corruption in rc/funge 00:09:59 it seems so 00:10:01 well, it's hard to figure out what without any context, of course 00:10:08 I think calling him a bad programmer is a bit rude. 00:10:14 *facepalm* 00:10:26 ehird, he trows away an index from command line parsing 3 lines above 00:10:33 and then rechecks that index 00:10:43 fine, fine, but i still think it was rude to say that 00:11:16 oh --help works fine if followed by a program 00:11:22 except... it doubles output 00:11:25 GGOODD 00:11:25 rc/funge ran fungot, didn't it? 00:11:25 ehird: but mine is simpler, one moment. i still have doubts concerning the exact implications :) fnord/ fnord/ images/ fnord/ fnord 00:11:31 he's obviously not a terrible programmer 00:11:35 ehird, yes it did, but older verion 00:11:36 if he can get a befunge-98 system to work. 00:11:37 version* 00:11:48 true. but he can't get command line parsing to work 00:11:59 And command line parsing is easy... 00:12:02 maybe he has some stupid, obscure, and crap parts of code, but that doesn't mean he can't program 00:12:05 Especially with getopt (GNU or otherwise) 00:12:10 $ ./funge -S ~/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/sanity.bf 00:12:10 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Exiting with return code = 0 00:12:13 $ ./funge -S --help ~/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/sanity.bf 00:12:13 0 0 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 7 8 8 9 9 Exiting with return code = 0 00:12:20 pikhq, he doesn't *use* that 00:12:25 he got a huge loop with strcmp 00:12:31 Who *doesn't*? 00:12:34 $ ./funge --help 00:12:34 Segmentation fault 00:12:40 I'd like to point out that command-line parsing was probably not the top thing on his mind. 00:12:45 pikhq, Mike Riley, the author of this program 00:12:47 It was likely an afterthought. 00:12:57 ehird: Command line parsing takes all of half an hour to do right. 00:13:00 ehird, well even so, crashing on it is messy 00:13:10 pikhq: I imagine he hacked something up in 5 minutes before releasing it. 00:13:20 pikhq, no it was much faster, at least using getopt(), but even without it, it takes 1 minute 00:13:23 err 00:13:26 10 minutes 00:13:27 or so 00:13:27 Indicative of a poor programmer. 00:13:35 GOODG:O ODD :p uDs hpeuss h500 e 00:13:35 s 500 00:13:35 GOODG:O OMD :p uMs hpeuss h1000 e 00:13:35 s 1000 00:13:47 pikhq: Where is your Befunge-98 system that can run an entire IRC bot using a bunch of fingerprints and not crash? 00:13:48 I disagree. That isn't GOOD 00:15:00 one thing to note. is that while the v1 segfaults on it, it don't cause memory corruption on --YS 00:15:25 it just ignores that argument 00:15:27 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:15:32 however --help still crashes it 00:15:34 badly 00:16:06 /home/arvid/funges/interpreters/rcfunge/mterm.c:23: warning: the `gets' function is dangerous and should not be used. 00:16:14 I think that proves "bad programmer" 00:16:16 without doubt 00:16:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | it's kinda trivial.. 00:16:32 a bad programmer would not be able to write rc/funge, stop being jerks 00:16:48 ah 00:16:51 #1 0x000000000040a2d4 in main (argc=2, argv=0x7fff674ca9d8, envp=0x7fff674ca9f0) at main.c:1334 00:16:51 1334 if (strcmp(argv[i],ProgName) == 0) f = 1; 00:16:55 (gdb) print ProgName 00:16:55 $1 = 0x0 00:16:57 (gdb) print argv[i] 00:16:57 $2 = 0x7fff674cb91a "--help" 00:17:06 that explains that bit 00:17:16 ehird, right, ehehehehe,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 00:17:33 Let me know when you're not being insensitive assholes to Mike Riley. 00:17:34 -!- ehird has left (?). 00:18:03 oh poor fanboy 00:18:06 heh 00:18:26 hrrm. I wonder why he loves Mike Riley so much :/ 00:18:30 seems strange 00:18:37 the football coach? 00:18:37 considering he made that MKRY himself 00:18:43 mbishop, who? 00:18:52 http://www.rcfunge98.com/ 00:18:54 that one 00:19:00 Author is called Mike Riley 00:19:11 possibly someone else got same name 00:20:00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Riley 00:20:30 mbishop, don't think it is the same person 00:20:52 mbishop, nor any of those on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Riley_(disambiguation) 00:22:42 What does the Rc stand for? 00:22:50 reminds me of those rosetta code implementations 00:26:08 -!- ehird has joined. 00:26:18 AnMaster: I am totally a fanboy because I point out you're being a fuckwit by making personal attacks. Totally. 00:26:19 -!- ehird has left (?). 00:26:30 I didn't make any personal attack 00:26:52 not more than MKRY :/ 00:27:10 -!- ehird has joined. 00:27:17 and I'm going to bed 00:27:19 night all 00:27:22 You repeatedly called him a bad programmer. MKRY was just a light-hearted prod at his english style. 00:27:23 -!- ehird has left (?). 00:28:40 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 00:51:40 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 01:41:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:54:15 -!- Corun_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:54:29 -!- Corun has joined. 04:10:36 -!- Corun has quit ("Pants."). 04:43:19 -!- ab5tract has joined. 05:06:20 My home page's color scheme is now automatically generated 8-D 05:10:40 boomtown 05:11:01 I see. 05:13:16 can you link me to that neural net again plz 05:13:42 http://codu.org/colormatch/ 05:13:52 Also see http://codu.org/ 's fancy colors ^^ 05:14:45 aweseome 05:14:51 Interesting. 05:15:47 GregorR next step a restful api for grok'ng the "present scheme" 05:16:22 It's actually getting not all that bad results... 05:16:48 I haven't seen any bad results. Some are a bit ... bright, but other than that :P 05:17:18 oi 05:17:31 is anyone here good with music? like, recognizing pieces, styles, etc? 05:19:37 I have friends who are :P 05:20:30 psygnisfive: i am 05:20:59 lament, can you do me a favor and listen to a brief bit of piano music and see if you recognize it? 05:21:08 ok 05:21:08 I'm vaguely so. 05:22:52 ok lemme record it off into an mp3 for you 05:26:45 erk 05:26:48 its gonna have to be wav 05:26:52 since i dont have flac 05:26:56 er 05:26:58 not flac 05:26:59 lame 05:29:47 this is a horribly large file for nary a minutes worth of audio, sorry: http://www.wellnowwhat.net/transfers/dennett_piano.wav 05:33:47 psygnisfive: i don't think it's anything famous 05:33:58 i dont either 05:33:59 but i WANT it 05:34:04 if you could give me like 05:34:12 note directions 05:34:18 uhhhh. 05:34:19 e.g up down same same up etc 05:34:28 Generated color scheme: #2E0A78, #85D70A, #F2CEBA is not particularly nice :) 05:34:41 i have music recognition resources that rely on note change directions 05:34:41 i don't think you'd find this piece anywhere. 05:34:43 but it's mostly pretty nice 05:34:50 oh no i think this one place would have it 05:35:01 its pretty good at recognizing random music 05:35:34 i'm not sure it was even ever published 05:35:44 it had to have been 05:35:57 all the music in this show was retrieved from free music archives 05:36:01 it's probably a study 05:36:14 so somehow they found a recording 05:36:38 do you atleast have an idea of what genre, or composer? 05:36:43 it could have been a czerny study 05:37:04 genre? 05:37:28 genre: romantic, or imitation romantic (if it's recent) 05:37:30 Asztal: I've seen worse :P 05:37:41 really? 05:37:42 hm 05:37:48 shostakovich was romantic, wasnt he? 05:37:57 Erm, romantic ERA ... 05:38:05 Romantic era != romantic necessarily :P 05:38:06 i know :P 05:38:15 psygnisfive: shostakovich was very very late romantic 05:38:20 ok 05:38:30 i heard a shostakovich piece, ages ago, that reminded me of this 05:38:30 this is early, "normal" romantic 05:38:50 but then i looked up shostakovich and couldnt find anything 05:39:22 shostakovich is fucking amazing 05:39:33 this music is complete junk in comparison :) 05:39:40 but i think it's a study, not a real piece 05:40:33 it's pretty easy to play, you could learn it 05:40:57 i cant follow the hands 05:41:03 i dont know where the low notes go :( 05:41:09 i love this piece tho 05:41:16 its simple and clean and beautiufl 05:41:32 and embodies a single, pure concept for me 05:41:40 i think it might be czerny 05:41:48 ok 05:41:50 thank you 05:41:50 <# 05:41:51 <3 05:42:04 if it is, ill give you head whenever you want. :D 05:42:05 :P 05:42:06 but that's an unlikely guess, just the best match i can think of 05:42:09 awesome 05:42:20 this is like a free lottery ticket :) 05:47:42 ok, maybe not czerny 05:48:05 ?? 05:48:14 im listening to some of czerny and it sounds like it MIGHT be 05:48:29 why not czerny? 05:48:56 at least it's not in any czerny i can find online 05:51:12 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 05:55:25 but... listen to shostakovich instead :P 05:58:34 czerny has some pieces that could be it 05:58:39 lots of them are like 10 minutes long 05:58:44 and itunes only has brief clips so 05:59:04 lots of people suggested it might be glass's etude 1 or so, but its not 05:59:08 its similar tho 06:00:17 its very glassy in its extreme use of high arpeggios and stranded low notes 06:10:01 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 06:10:02 -!- metazilla has joined. 06:13:09 -!- metazilla has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:14:42 -!- metazilla has joined. 06:16:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and stuff. 06:39:14 ize finding nothing :( 06:41:49 -!- metazilla has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:42:18 -!- metazilla has joined. 06:49:24 -!- metazilla has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:49:44 -!- metazilla has joined. 07:06:29 http://rafb.net/p/wYc8k789.html <<< if you find this hard to read, you're bad programmers 07:06:48 but it's clearly obfuscated 07:14:26 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:26:22 (on second read i retract the obfuscation statement) 07:31:53 also doesn't ehird mock people all the time? 07:32:20 what? 07:32:57 he /parted dramatically during my night when AnMaster was putting down Miker Riley's code 07:33:19 http://rafb.net/p/wYc8k789.html 07:33:21 this code 07:33:24 well 07:33:33 not mike's code, but mike's ability to code 07:35:06 in my opinion the non crappy way to do that is to implement some sort of gc on top of c, write a list class and do a cut-in-half on the index of the program's name 07:35:24 but in actual c, i wouldn't say that's a bad way to do it 07:44:44 Oh, more IRC-drama. 07:47:07 drrrrrrrrrrammmmmmmmmmmm 07:50:18 Well, the use of a fixed-width ArgV[50][80] and strcpy instead of an array of pointers and strdup or something (or just those original pointers) *is* reasonably ugly, but other than that I'm not sure what's so very wrong in the loop, or how it would be significantly improved with "continue", except that it'd remove one level of nesting. 07:50:39 Indentation, I mean. 07:51:22 ^cho drama 07:51:23 dramaramaamamaa 07:51:36 That's a reasonably ^cho-able word. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:39 -!- ab5tract has quit. 08:11:18 -!- immibis has joined. 08:16:53 -!- Judofyr has quit. 08:41:04 ^cho llama 08:41:04 llamalamaamamaa 08:44:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:09:55 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:14:53 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 09:21:15 fizzie, it was wrong because he knew this index 3 lines above when he parsed argumnets 09:21:21 arguments* 09:21:27 and then he threw it away 09:21:50 also it is the reason it crashes on "any option except -h and no program name" 09:22:15 http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~ajo/funge/#Fungus <-- this looks fun 09:27:55 * AnMaster yawns 09:30:54 AnMaster: you've got something stuck between your teeth 09:31:16 * AnMaster walks over to a mirror 09:31:19 ah yes 09:31:30 fixed 09:34:40 ^cho esoteric 09:34:40 esotericsotericoterictericericricicc 09:34:55 ^cho ````ccc 09:34:55 ````ccc```ccc``ccc`ccccccccc 09:35:08 subtle cough is so pretty 09:35:57 ^ul (:(oklopol)^):^ 09:35:57 ...bad insn! 09:36:02 oh right 09:36:04 ^ul (:(oklopol)):^ 09:36:10 i wanted to make REALLY INTENSE COUGH at some point, but couldn't really find a pure and beautiful way to add another continuation-related operation that made it tc 09:36:17 ^ul (:^(oklopol)):^ 09:36:17 ...too much prog! 09:36:20 wtf 09:36:22 that is a new one? 09:36:27 No. 09:36:28 err 09:36:34 you're not doing tail recurzion 09:36:37 "too much stack" I have seen 09:36:41 oklopol, true 09:36:45 I wanted it to grow 09:36:47 you call the program recursively 09:36:47 I think ais523 or someone did "too much prog" already, when I asked. 09:36:53 so the program stack grows 09:36:55 yes 09:37:05 ^ul (::^):^ 09:37:06 It's printed when the program length extends too much to the left. 09:37:06 ...too much stack! 09:37:22 ^ul (:^):^ 09:37:23 ...out of time! 09:37:29 AnMaster: different stack, that's the data stack, i mean the "call stack", kinda 09:37:34 ah right 09:37:37 makes sense 09:37:57 although in underload it's not really a stack, but you know, it does what "the stack" usually does, holds things you'll need when returning from procedures 09:38:16 The ^ instruction is implemented by simply inserting the top-of-stack so that it's final character replaces the ^, and then moving the IP to the start of that string. 09:38:32 yes, but that's such an ugly practical way to explain it. 09:40:55 you need to use high-level concepts that only somewhat apply, and use technical terms like "kinda" 09:41:04 hah 09:41:36 try { socket = new Socket( ia, port ); } catch( Exception e ) { System.out.println( e ); } 09:41:38 try { writer = new BufferedWriter( new OutputStreamWriter( socket.getOutputStream() ) ); } catch ( Exception e ) { System.out.println( e ); } 09:41:41 try { reader = new BufferedReader( new InputStreamReader( socket.getInputStream() ) ); } catch ( Exception e ) { System.out.println( e ); } 09:41:44 try { writer.write( "JOIN " + name + "\n" ); } catch ( Exception e ) { System.out.println( e ); } 09:41:47 try { writer.flush(); } catch ( Exception e ) { System.out.println( e ); } 09:41:48 i make java pretty :) 09:42:42 i find exception handling bad programming style, should really wrap up the socket class into one that suppresses exceptions, or just crashes the whole program 09:43:53 Is there a particular reason that's not all in a single try { } block, except for the fact that now you can get some NullPointerExceptions from writer.write() and such? 09:44:45 after i stop doing try-catching separately for each line, i will have to start thinking what the optimal way to do that is 09:45:02 haha 09:45:04 because i do not want to actually catch these exceptions, these blocks do not actually make any sense, so i don't want to have to think. 09:45:20 So it's either butt-ugly or most optimal, nothing in the middle? 09:45:27 they are there because java wants me to be clean. 09:45:34 That's not clean. 09:45:40 fizzie: it needs to be perfect :) 09:45:41 oklopol, a solution could be using some other language 09:45:52 fizzie: clean as in, handle exceptions 09:45:57 I wouldn't call that perfect, either. 09:46:08 A single catch block for all lines would be as "clean". 09:46:24 fizzie: syntactically cleaner, conceptually just the same 09:46:41 um no, for the reason that you continue if you fail 09:46:48 when that makes no sense 09:47:59 java doesn't let me make socket suppress easily, and it doesn't let me not catch these, so i find it conceptually cleanest to surround everything with try-catches that can throw. i could, in this case, surround these with just one block 09:48:13 but if i added something in the middle that actually threw an exception i want to handle 09:48:29 then i would have to write the exception blocks around each other 09:48:41 heh 09:48:50 and the exception handling for the socket would clutter my thinking 09:49:01 oh well 09:49:04 Personally I find it pretty ugly to do all the later lines when you already know they're just going to throw NullPointerExceptions when they refer to uninitialized cruft. 09:49:44 fizzie: that's thinking. you clearly don't see my point here, think i'm actually being rational? :P 09:49:55 thinking is not good. you shouldn't think about things that matter not. 09:49:57 I don't expect rationality from you, no. 09:50:15 Maybe you should go the other way and add "throws Throwable" to all your functions. 09:50:23 It looks silly, also. 09:50:28 :D 09:51:05 nah, that's too much work 09:52:02 * oerjan suddenly gets "throws Smurfable" into his head 09:52:11 You can run all your Java code through CPP and use #define BEGIN throws Throwable {, then code your functions as void (foo) BEGIN heh(); heh(); } 09:52:26 :D 09:52:48 then i'll need #define END } 09:52:58 but yeah, otherwise not such a bad idea 09:53:19 Maybe not; the mismatch between BEGIN and } can be an artistic statement on the class imbalance between the rich and the poor, or something. 09:53:35 -!- M0ny has joined. 09:53:48 anyway it's not like i hate the fact java wants me to catch all exceptions, it's just when i'm writing the code in the first place, thinking about exceptions is so goddamn annoying i want to choke my computer. 09:54:06 fizzie: i don't like art :D 09:54:42 plop 09:55:41 well, i guess what i want is #ifdef CLEANMODE \n #define BEGIN { \n #else #define BEGIN throws Throwable { \n #endif 09:56:59 but if i had to choose just one of those, it would definitely not be cleanmode, because i simply don't want to care about exceptions when writing the code, that's just clutter. 09:57:48 but, i guess i do like hating java, so it's not that bad. 09:58:11 some things i don't even like hating, they're the ones that really annoy me 09:58:16 M0ny: plop. 09:58:23 ^^ 09:58:30 i know a guy named plop 09:59:27 plopmania, actually, he was here once, asked me how to run bootstrap_ on my bot, ran a hello world and left :P 09:59:40 :p 09:59:59 hit and run programming 10:00:58 hm... 10:03:39 hm... 10:03:41 ^bf --[>-<-------]>++.----.+.+++.+.-.---. 10:03:41 plmpqpm 10:03:44 argh 10:03:57 ^bf --[>-<-------]>+.----.+.+++.+.-.---. 10:03:57 oklopol 10:04:05 yeah i'm bf-licious 10:04:34 not bad. 10:05:09 a bf/char ratio of 5.14 10:06:31 thutubot might be easy too 10:07:17 well the t and u 10:07:45 also opqrst isn't that much, but yeah i guess there are others 10:09:01 ^bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>.--.+. 10:09:01 dbc 10:09:14 that's probably far from an optimal 100 10:10:02 it may be optimal without wrapping 10:10:14 (best on the wiki) 10:10:27 ^bf --[>-<+++++]>--.--.+. 10:10:27 dbc 10:13:13 ^bf +++[>+++[>+++++++++++<-]<-]>.--.+. 10:13:40 ^bf +++[>+++[>+++++++++++<-]<-]>>++++.--.+. 10:13:40 gef 10:13:45 ^bf +++[>+++[>+++++++++++<-]<-]>>+.--.+. 10:13:45 dbc 10:13:47 :) 10:14:09 a few chars longer 10:14:31 >_O 10:14:44 >_O? 10:15:02 oerjan, what does that one mean? 10:15:43 fizzie, also what do you think about this: http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~ajo/funge/#Fungus 10:16:02 ^bf +++++[>+++[>+++[>++<-]>+<<-]<-]>>>+++++.--.+. 10:16:02 nlm 10:16:05 hmph :P 10:16:17 oklopol, are you anti-golfing? 10:16:24 nahhhhhhhh 10:16:37 i'm trying to convert math expressions to bf. 10:16:38 was supposed to be a raised eyebrow 10:16:56 oklopol, oh ok :P 10:17:12 ^ul (nlm)S 10:17:13 nlm 10:17:54 ^ul (:(oklopol)S^):^ 10:17:54 oklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopolok ...too much output! 10:17:58 heh 10:19:13 +ul (:(oklopol)S^):^ 10:19:14 oklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopol ...too much output! 10:19:29 ^bf >>++>>++++[<<[-<++>>+<]>[-<+>]>>-]<<[-[>++++++<-]]>++++. 10:19:31 fungot seems to be a lot faster 10:19:34 ...out of time! 10:19:34 AnMaster: how's he do that 10:19:56 ^bf >>++>>++++[<<[-<++>>+<]>[-<+>]>-]<<[-[>++++++<-]]>++++. 10:19:56 . 10:19:58 ... 10:20:01 fungot, by running on cfunge I guess. However referring to yourself using "he" is strange 10:20:01 AnMaster: there are certain " linkers" these days. send the tourists to go a single day without scheme, you wouldn't need to be 10:20:12 huh 10:20:18 ^bf >>++>>++++[<<[-<++>>+<]>[-<+>]>-]<<[>++++++<-]>++++. 10:20:18 10:20:21 :D 10:20:23 okay i suck. 10:20:26 oklopol, um? 10:20:31 ^bf +. 10:20:32 10:20:40 oh ok not that 10:20:44 ^ul ((pol)~^(fok)~^(kok)~^)(~(oklo)~*S::a~*)~^ 10:20:44 ...out of stack! 10:20:48 argh 10:20:59 ^bf --[+>-<]. 10:21:06 ^bf --[+>-<]>. 10:21:06 10:21:11 ^bf ---[++>-<]>. 10:21:14 ^ul ((pol)~^(fok)~^(kok)~^)(~(oklo)~*S::a~*):a~*~^ 10:21:15 ^bf --[++>-<]>. 10:21:16 ...out of time! 10:21:16 oklopoloklofokoklokok 10:21:16 10:22:07 ^bf --[+++>-<]>. 10:22:08 10:22:28 ^bf ---[+++>-<]>. 10:22:28 10:22:33 ^bf --[++++>-<]>. 10:22:38 ...out of time! 10:22:41 ^bf >++>++++[<[-<++>]<[->+<]>>-]<[->++++++<]>++++. 10:22:41 10:22:44 ... :D 10:22:50 ^bf --[>++++<-]>. 10:22:50 10:23:04 oklopol, now do that as utf8! 10:23:06 ^bf >++>+++[<[-<++>]<[->+<]>>-]<[->++++++<]>++++. 10:23:06 d 10:23:10 ^bf --[>+++<-]>. 10:23:10 10:23:12 ^bf >++>+++[<[-<++>]<[->+<]>>-]<[->++++++<]>++++.--.+. 10:23:12 dbc 10:23:14 finally 10:23:17 2^4 10:23:30 ^bf --[>+++++<-]>. 10:23:30 10:23:41 hm 10:27:15 ^code 000aa+-p 10:27:16 ^reload 10:27:16 Reloaded. 10:27:44 Added some real spaghetti Befunge code to manage the ignore list; although it still doesn't actually ignore anything. 10:27:47 ^ignore foo 10:27:47 OK. 10:27:49 ^ignore bar 10:27:49 OK. 10:27:52 ^ignore baz 10:27:52 OK. 10:27:53 ^ignore 10:27:53 foo bar baz 10:27:56 ^ignore -bar 10:27:56 OK. 10:27:58 ^ignore 10:27:58 foo baz 10:28:01 ^ignore fizzie 10:28:01 OK. 10:28:09 ^ignore oerjan!!!11 10:28:09 OK. 10:28:23 ^ignore 10:28:23 foo baz fizzie oerjan!!!11 10:29:02 Unlike the command list, I bothered to write that bit which lets me remove items from the middle of the list. 10:29:49 Rather messy code: http://zem.fi/~fis/ignore.txt 10:30:12 fizzie, also what do you think about this: http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~ajo/funge/#Fungus 10:30:13 fizzie, ? 10:30:19 I'm not quite sure whether to make ^ignore an owner-only command here. 10:30:28 fizzie, owner only I'd say 10:30:55 definitly 10:30:59 definitely* 10:33:06 Well, you people might want to have some way of making fungot go quiet even if I'm not here. 10:33:07 fizzie: c-a conflicts with emacs and have a look 10:33:20 Fungus looks fungey. 10:33:48 fizzie, well, what about someone abusing it? 10:35:33 if someone would ever write a lint for funge I know the perfect name: flint 10:36:13 -!- rodgort has quit ("Coyote finally caught me"). 10:36:22 -!- rodgort has joined. 10:36:39 I rather doubt that would be very much fun for anyone, but I guess I could make it owner-only. Or I could just make the ^ignore command available for ignored people too. 10:38:00 -!- oerjan has quit ("Cibus"). 10:44:00 err so you can revenge? :P 10:47:21 So you can unignore yourself. 10:47:49 ah. 10:47:54 Maybe I underestimate how much fun you could get out of that. 10:47:56 ^reload 10:47:56 Reloaded. 10:48:05 Should be owner-only now, unless I screwed it up. 10:49:09 ^ignore fizzie 10:49:10 "make the ^ignore command available for ignored people too" does sound more like letting people revenge than letting the unignore themselves, if you don't know ^ignore also unignores 10:49:18 guess it is owner only 10:49:35 hmm 10:49:45 fizzie, added ignore for thutubot? 10:49:46 actually not exactly if it's already allowed for everyone 10:49:48 Owner-only, yes, and it doesn't really do anything, except manipulates that list. 10:49:49 ^ul (S)S 10:49:50 S 10:50:11 The actual ignoring part does not happen yet. 10:50:46 +ul (^ul (hello)S)S 10:50:46 mutable list? that's so cool 10:50:47 ^ul (hello)S 10:50:47 hello 10:51:03 oklopol: Did you check out the implementation: http://zem.fi/~fis/ignore.txt 10:51:07 So very messy. 10:51:07 Single assignment befunge! 10:51:30 fizzie: i can't exactly read befunge anyway; i've only written one program in it, and i haven't read even one program in it 10:51:35 fizzie, run that graph program of yours 10:51:50 well 10:51:58 i can, but not fast. 10:52:07 >$0".derongi toN">61g: 10:52:08 ? 10:52:11 61g? 10:52:43 oklopol, what about malbolge? 10:52:44 (6,1) has the "current output length" value. 10:52:55 "derongi toN" :D god i love s0gnirts 10:53:06 fizzie, ah 10:53:08 So 61g:c+61p3P appends 12 characters of output. 10:53:08 (the plural suffix is a prefix for gnirts right?) 10:53:26 oklopol, um it is string backwards 10:53:26 AnMaster: no, i can't read malbolge 10:53:35 I've seen people write it "gnirtses". 10:53:43 AnMaster: yes that's the joke 10:53:44 fizzie, yeah I end up doing that 10:53:44 But I guess that's a bit boring. 10:54:59 oh and that fungus use elf for file format 10:55:15 http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/ignore.png 10:55:15 so readelf works on it, though it gives strange values 10:56:09 fizzie, that graph seems to be missing parts? 10:56:21 desrever si gnirts eht nehw xiferp a semoceb xiffus larulp eht si ekoj eht 10:56:23 Which parts? 10:56:27 god i'm slow at that 10:56:37 g#v_^ 10:56:38 for example 10:56:52 It's got the 'g'. 10:57:02 The others are not "real instructions", it's implied by the edges. 10:57:15 ah 10:57:48 fizzie, why does it quit in various places? 10:57:58 Because I had to add something there to prevent wrapping. 10:58:09 Those go outside the ignore.txt parts to other areas of fungot. 10:58:09 fizzie: if you write an alternative implementation of syntax-case 10:58:13 ah 10:59:14 There are some silly parts, like the node with only a "0" in it and true/false edges leading out. 10:59:20 It will always take the 'false' edge. 10:59:22 fizzie, it got three exit points? 11:00:18 * AnMaster ponders a fingerprint CAM 11:00:43 as in Content-addressable memory 11:00:58 would actually be searching inside the interpreter 11:01:04 in some list in funge-space 11:01:05 Yes, it's got three @ nodes, which is pretty strange, given that there are only two @s in the program. 11:01:09 fizzie, or would that be cheating? 11:02:45 Oh, right: it has three separate @ nodes, because that one @ is entered both from the left side and from bottom; it won't merge those into same node. Oh-well, a minor issue. 11:03:43 And I guess it might be a bit un-Befungeish to move that sort of stuff into the interpreter. I have some pangs of conscience even now for using STRN so much. 11:04:24 fizzie, so if I made a fingerprint for it, you wouldn't use it? 11:04:45 I'm not sure. I might not use it. 11:04:55 On the other hand I'm pretty lazy. 11:05:06 well I won't write it then 11:21:19 There's a slight bug in cfunge's REXP. 11:22:42 If you specify the REG_NOSUB flag, the 'regexec' function ignores the nmatch and pmatch arguments, and since the 'matches' array is not initialized to be empty, it pushes 128 empty strings on stack. 11:24:15 "PXER"4($$0"oof"4C0"oof"0E.a,@ prints out 128; it should (arguably) print 0. 11:26:57 hm 11:27:38 fizzie, so lets see what you meant... 11:28:25 "is not initialized" <-- valgrind doesn't complain 11:28:40 Well, is not initialized to be empty. 11:28:56 Obviously it's initialized to zeroes, since it's a static thing. 11:29:18 well yeah 11:29:31 But your push_results is testing for rm_so != -1. 11:29:46 grr *reads man page* 11:29:59 Or something like that, anyway; haven't looked at it closely enough, but it does push 128 strings in there. 11:30:12 if (matches[i].rm_so != -1) { 11:30:14 yeah... 11:30:23 My regexec man page says it completely ignores nmatch/pmatch with NOSUB. 11:30:40 fizzie, however it may take a few minutes to fix since I don't remember the API 11:30:53 got to re-read the man page first 11:31:38 Well, I did work-around it already. Actually I'm not quite sure what REXP's "E" *should* do when the expression uses NOSUB; either push a single zero, or alternatively push nothing. 11:32:11 well it shouldn't be 128 strings 11:32:49 * AnMaster adds a static bool compiled_nosub 11:33:19 fizzie, tell me what it should do instead :) 11:34:24 I'm not sure. If you just look at the REXP doc in rcfunge manual, it says "E leaves the results of the match as a series of 0gnirts strings. Each string representing the matched portion of a substring. Top of stack will have the count of these 0gnirts strings." in which case the most logical thing would be to push a zero count. 11:34:39 ^reload 11:34:39 Reloaded. 11:34:42 ^ignore 11:34:51 fizzie, what does rc/funge does on NOSUB? 11:35:41 AnMaster: Uh... pushes 100 empty strings plus the number 100, I think. 11:35:57 well that is because it has 100 static matches 11:35:57 It has a very similar implementation to yours, at least on a quick glance. 11:36:10 fizzie, well iirc rc/funge is per-ip compiled 11:36:27 Okay, there's that. 11:36:55 ^ignore ^thutubot! 11:36:56 OK. 11:37:13 +ul (^ul (hello)S)S 11:37:14 ^ul (hello)S 11:37:20 156 compiled_nosub = (flags & FUNGE_REG_NOSUB); 11:37:20 (gdb) print (flags & FUNGE_REG_NOSUB) 11:37:20 $3 = 0 11:37:21 ^ul (hello)S 11:37:21 hello 11:37:26 (gdb) s 11:37:26 159 stack_freeString(str); 11:37:26 (gdb) print compiled_nosub 11:37:26 $6 = false 11:37:26 wtf 11:37:27 !? 11:37:53 hm 11:37:54 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:38:00 (gdb) print (flags & FUNGE_REG_NOSUB) == true 11:38:00 $4 = 0 11:38:00 (gdb) print (flags & FUNGE_REG_NOSUB) == false 11:38:00 $5 = 1 11:38:01 so 11:38:04 ^ignore ^optbot! 11:38:05 OK. 11:38:05 fizzie: We can't prove two things to be the same, sure. 11:38:07 what the heck was going on there 11:38:18 fizzie, ? 11:38:34 wait 11:38:38 1 is true, right 11:38:38 duh 11:38:43 * AnMaster coded bash before today 11:38:59 ^ul (opt)(bot)*S 11:39:00 optbot 11:39:00 fungot: http://pastebin.ca/932888 11:39:07 No more fancy-loops. :/ 11:40:05 fizzie, um I get "BAD: TOS was not 1" from Mike's rexp.f98 11:40:07 now 11:40:55 it doesn't say so if I let it push 128 strings instead 11:40:57 fizzie, ! 11:41:09 Checking. 11:41:19 it may be buggy, don't know 11:41:41 fizzie: does java have a join of some sort? 11:42:15 oklopol, java.too.long.namespace.name.os.system.execte("ghci")? 11:42:16 ;P 11:42:42 AnMaster: rexp.f98 seems to compile all regexps with flags==1, so any change in behaviour that affects only REG_NOSUB'd things shouldn't affect it. 11:43:57 oklopol: What, to concatenate strings? 11:44:07 hnuh 11:45:20 fizzie: wait. 11:45:35 My first instinct for string-joining would just be StringBuilder sb = new StringBuilder(); for (String s : collection) sb.append(s); sb.toString(); which looks very Javay. Waiting for further instructions. 11:46:23 wtf 11:46:36 fizzie, either I get your test program working or I get rexp.f98 working 11:46:38 but not both 11:46:52 are you sure your test program is actually correct? 11:46:57 yeah that works. it's just that's a bit ugly; i'll probably inherit a joinable container from arraylist then... 11:47:23 oklopol: It's more than a bit ugly, but I don't think the built-in containers (or String class) has any very helpful methods. 11:47:44 true,. 11:48:02 fizzie, ? 11:48:16 god i wish java had less support for all that io shit, and more algorithmical support i would actually have use for 11:48:27 AnMaster: Of course not, but really, if you change things so that the behaviour differs only when the C command has the NOSUB flag, I don't see how it could alter rexp.f98 results at all. 11:48:42 well 11:48:53 fizzie, well I suspect your program doesn't set NOSUB, I'm not sure 11:48:59 i don't know what the standard classes contain exactly, the list is too long to read 11:48:59 Er. 11:49:09 but most of it seems quite useless 11:49:11 I don't see how 4C *wouldn't*. 11:49:29 ah wait it does 11:49:31 perhaps i'll use a stringbuilder for now, i guess i just need this one join. 11:49:40 I was confusing different types of flags 11:49:46 as in funge flags and system flags 11:50:00 (i do like the idea of SequenceJoinerFactory though) 11:50:29 oklopol: They've got String.split(String regex), that's at least something. 11:50:39 yeah, that was a nice addition 11:52:46 Should save those ignores in the state-file, currently they're non-persistent. 11:52:54 fizzie, fix (push a single 0) pushed 11:53:45 so you can update your copy if you want 11:54:07 now I hope to get around to making that release soonj 11:54:09 soon* 11:54:34 Okay. I'll try to remember to maybe clean out my workaround (not use NOSUB and just discard the useless match-string) when I next update. Although then it won't run correctly on rc/funge with ignores. 11:55:06 fizzie, well report a bug to rc/funge author 11:55:14 and doesn't CCBI have REXP? 11:56:49 Don't know about that. 12:00:17 I think fungot should work just fine even if "PXER"4( reflects, it just won't process the ignores. 12:00:18 fizzie: huh. people are evil. blogs cause conservative canadian governments. i know 2. that's obvious and you did refer to a certain class of bad things/ alone 12:00:46 fungot: You're starting to sound like a paranoid person, you know. 12:00:46 fizzie: it would be 12:02:04 fungot, it is a conspiracy! 12:02:04 AnMaster: but i wanna try debian some day... of course. it's pure space opera. but as i got out 12:02:19 debian.... space opera? 12:02:26 huh 12:03:30 fungot: You're actually running in a Debian system right now. 12:03:30 fizzie: i'm familiar with 12:03:39 fungot: Well, I guess you would be. 12:03:40 fizzie: that's how i managed it, and the oft-cited horror film fnord a wonderful life_, are noteworthy examples of works accidentally committed to the festive mode. 12:04:26 fizzie, how would you interpret THAT? 12:04:42 I don't really know; I guess it got all confused. 12:05:46 Though "fnord a wonderful life" does sound like it'd be a quite scary film. 12:08:32 THAT? a new fingerprint? 12:08:53 pointers for befunge maybe? 12:10:18 (and that was a joke, AnMaster :P stupidity is not my only thing, i also make jokes!) 12:11:32 -!- Corun has joined. 12:13:38 oklopol, hah 12:16:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | base-3 is actually fairly feasible... -1, 0, 1 corresponding to the polarity of the volts.. 12:16:43 reverse polarity! 12:19:38 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 12:22:40 fizzie, I'm preparing 0.3.3 release 12:46:23 (hit a few issues) 13:18:31 Come to think of it, I could've done a lot simpler ignoration thing by simply using a single ignore regex instead of a list of them; and then I wouldn't need to compile all those regexs every time someone speaks to the bot. 13:19:56 fizzie, better change then 13:19:57 :) 13:54:50 ^code 000aa+-p 13:54:51 ^reload 13:54:52 Reloaded. 13:55:13 ^ignore ^(optbot|thutubot)! 13:55:13 Bad re: 112 13:55:13 fizzie: okay whut 13:55:39 "Okay whut" indeed. 13:57:13 Where did it get "112" from? I don't think translate_return_C should be even capable of giving out that number. 13:57:36 ^ignore foo 13:57:36 Bad re: 0 13:57:48 Nor that. 13:57:58 There must be a bug in my code. 13:58:22 Oh, right, it doesn't have REXP loaded because that's done in the initialization now. 13:58:28 ^raw QUIT :let's just restart 13:58:28 -!- fungot has quit ("let's just restart"). 13:58:58 -!- fungot has joined. 13:59:06 ^ignore ^(optbot|thutubot)! 13:59:07 OK. 13:59:07 fizzie: ok 13:59:13 Heh. 13:59:13 fizzie: this new jpeg after ' jpegtran -rotate 270' and switching 1600/ 1200 in gs invocation is actually pretty nice. 13:59:17 Hmm. 13:59:18 H7zzi=: its working over here. :-p so, i load the usb module. 13:59:24 That's not right. 13:59:45 Interesting errors, though. 13:59:46 fizzie: bucket sort... in bancstar. 13:59:51 -!- fungot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:00:11 Back to the drawing-board with it. 14:16:06 -!- fungot has joined. 14:16:12 ^ignore ^(optbot|thutubot)! 14:16:12 OK. 14:16:12 fizzie: I can't decide if I should make 0x00 short for current outfile, 0x01 current infile, 0x02 stdout, 0x03 stdin 14:16:22 Now it should be okay. 14:16:28 fungot: Do you feel fine? 14:16:28 fizzie: tell me when you find it. i doubt the basic design on paper in the bus. 14:16:34 ^ignore 14:16:34 ^(optbot|thutubot)! 14:16:35 fungot: (EXPR . EXPR) 14:16:45 It also seems to be doing the ignoration. 14:17:18 +ul (^ul (ok?)S)S 14:17:19 ^ul (ok?)S 14:17:23 Yes. 14:18:25 ^def help ul (^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^bool)S 14:18:25 Defined. 14:18:48 ^save 14:18:49 OK. 14:19:19 Decided to do the ^help command that way for easier modification. Hopefully no-one will override it with anything silly. 14:21:39 hah 14:21:57 ^talk 14:22:03 fungot, hi? 14:22:03 AnMaster: or someone did 14:22:06 ^show 14:22:06 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help 14:22:13 ^echo optbot 14:22:13 optbot optbot 14:22:14 AnMaster: but that's a result of very little operator overloading - most operators do a very specific thing. 14:22:14 fungot: yes 14:27:15 release time! 14:46:33 fizzie, cfunge 0.3.3 is released 14:49:46 I suppose there's not much difference between releases and bzr-pulled copies? 14:50:31 fizzie, not really, there were some typo fixes, updated version number, updated changelog 15:10:42 -!- ehird has joined. 15:10:48 fizzie: 15:10:57 make ^ignore and ^unignore available to all unignored people 15:11:06 but let you only ignore one person every 5 minutes 15:11:17 impossible to take over ze world, but nicely anarchistic 15:12:20 Well, I took the lazy way and just added a single owner-configurable ignoramation regex. 15:12:33 fizzie: what about when you are away and co2games comes here ;-P 15:13:53 hey, fizzie 15:13:56 unignore optbot! 15:13:56 ehird: then I was told you can't use input 15:13:57 :-( 15:14:07 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:15:19 Bot-loop preventamation was, I think, the whole point of ignorey. 15:15:31 fizzie: But optbot/fungot conversations are wonderful 15:15:31 ehird: i assume you understand i'm just representing a part of the main array python-tsyle? 15:15:32 ehird: gauche now supports wrights matcher, right sarahbot? :p). can i do 15:16:21 -!- ehird has changed nick to optbot_feels_rej. 15:16:26 ... 15:16:27 optbot_feels_rej: Bullshit 15:16:30 LOL :D 15:16:30 optbot_feels_rej: :) 15:16:35 Shut up optbot 15:16:35 optbot_feels_rej: but I think that's kind of cheating :P 15:16:39 fungot: hi 15:16:39 optbot_feels_rej: code got borken somewhere. melody of oblivion? 15:16:39 optbot_feels_rej: If you can mark a function as, say, never being jumped into. 15:16:40 fungot: at least it proves you aren't the first one to make that mistake 15:16:44 Huh. 15:16:45 optbot_feels_rej: HQ9+ is just as fully functional; it's been implemented 15:16:48 ^talk 15:16:48 optbot_feels_rej: my monitor plugs into my USB port... 15:16:59 ^ul (optbot)S 15:17:00 optbot_feels_rej: afternoon. 15:17:00 optbot 15:17:00 fungot: "x", [[:apply, ["x", "y"], []]]]] 15:17:05 -!- optbot_feels_rej has changed nick to ehird. 15:50:42 -!- hakware has joined. 15:50:58 -!- hakware has changed nick to ENKI-][. 16:21:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:39:56 -!- ENKI-][ has quit ("WeeChat 0.2.6"). 16:44:15 -!- hakware has joined. 16:44:55 -!- hakware has changed nick to ^dENKI. 16:54:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 17:03:39 http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/news08.html NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 17:04:08 [[Instead of writing personal checks, I'll write personal certificates of deposit to each awardee's account at the Bank of San Serriffe, which is an offshore institution that has branches in Blefuscu and Elbonia on the planet Pincus.]] 17:04:29 what? huh 17:09:15 Hahaha, "It turns out that only 9 of the first 275 checks that I've sent out since the beginning of 2006 have actually been cashed. The others have apparently been cached." 17:09:19 Well put. 17:09:45 GregorR, what do you get for pointing out a typo on that page ;) 17:09:49 ah wait 17:09:51 double meaning 17:09:56 ... 17:09:57 >_______< 17:10:02 No, single meaning X_X 17:10:05 Just clever :P 17:10:06 ehird, remember I'm not a native speaker 17:10:07 Note to self: Check for AnMaster before linking to any joke. 17:10:15 ehird: http://codu.org/ is now themed by my color matcher! 17:10:37 ehird, any English pun yes 17:10:38 GregorR: when you first said that i thought you meant each load 17:10:39 in the logs 17:10:41 but NO 17:10:42 OH NO 17:10:44 IT WAS A LIE 17:10:47 A DIRTY COMMUNIST LIEFJDSKF 17:10:58 Uh, it is done each load, it's just cached in a cookie. 17:11:05 If you want to refresh it just use the menu. 17:11:08 NO 17:11:11 MAKE IT CHANGE EACH TIME 17:11:11 :_: 17:11:22 I didn't want the theme to change as you navigated the page :P 17:11:27 GregorR, is that box different in colour at the top and the bottom? 17:11:35 also it change on each load for me 17:11:35 AnMaster: Yeah, it has a gradient. 17:11:37 AnMaster: Welcome to 1997 17:11:39 it's called a GRADIENT 17:11:41 but I reject cookies ;P 17:11:43 also, welcome to paranoia 17:11:43 AnMaster: You must have cookies disabled. 17:11:44 Right. 17:12:02 ehird, yes I just didn't remember the English word........ 17:12:13 GregorR: remove the cookies 17:12:14 ;_________: 17:12:20 People who don't have cookies enabled will have a much more ... colorful experience on this site :P 17:12:35 GregorR, and it doesn't work with javascript off ;P 17:12:42 17:13:01 i've given up complaining because you have a vocabulary of 30 things, 29 of which are annoying. 17:13:05 i haven't seen the 30th in person yet. 17:13:38 ehird, and I thank you for your help with funge recently 17:14:01 AnMaster: which consists of "repeating fizzie's and ais523's lines because you didn't listen the first time"? 17:14:21 ehird, ? 17:14:35 static array 17:15:36 well the idea about not using linked-list style hash 17:15:40 that too 17:15:51 AnMaster: With JS off it will now give a good default theme, rather than drab white-on-black. 17:16:00 And by "now" I mean "when I upload it" :P 17:16:01 GregorR, yes and that is nice 17:16:10 GregorR, um it gave me black on black? 17:16:12 with white text 17:16:23 And by "now" I mean "when I upload it" :P 17:16:40 GregorR, oh I thought you meant *white box* on black page 17:16:48 which would have been worse 17:16:50 Nono. 17:16:54 (It is now uploaded) 17:17:02 GregorR, nice yes 17:17:15 "No JavaScript? Click here to disable the JavaScript menu." 17:17:17 GregorR: 5 amelican moneys for no cookie 17:17:19 the click here link is 404 17:17:22 :( 17:17:31 GregorR: I will kill you if you don't then 17:17:43 AnMaster: ORLY? I haven't looked at that in a long time :P 17:18:19 well I usually have a noscript exception for you site, because of your interesting projects 17:18:29 Hahaha 17:18:32 like jsmips 17:18:32 :P 17:18:50 GregorR: ok, here's my idea: 17:18:56 GregorR, how goes jsmips then? 17:19:01 ehird, just turn off cookies? 17:19:03 AnMaster: no 17:19:03 :P 17:19:06 AnMaster: Haven't updated it in a while. 17:19:18 GregorR: all non-main page pages cache in cookie 17:19:20 but the main page doesn't 17:19:30 ehird, well you asked me to turn on cookies/javascripts lots of times, so why can't I ask you to turn it *OFF* for once :P 17:20:03 'cuz having them off is silly 17:20:11 :P 17:20:22 AnMaster: Hmmmm, seems that somethings wonky about the PHP on this server ... 17:20:30 GregorR: http://codu.org/dcvogllmrcmcdp.ogg this would be a good OS startup sound 17:20:34 if it made you listen to it all before starting 17:20:53 Ohhhh kay :P 17:21:23 ehird, I disagree :P 17:21:32 AnMaster: that's because you suck 17:21:57 ehird, well your niceness yesterday didn't last that long. :P 17:22:05 back to usual I gues 17:22:05 you started being annoying again 17:22:06 guess* 17:22:15 ehird, hey wrong, *you* started ;P 17:22:27 /ignore AnMaster. Problem solved. 17:22:40 *shrug* 17:23:04 GregorR: add a 'generate two non-matches' 17:23:13 I got an idea eh 17:23:14 ehird* 17:23:19 that you would like 17:23:22 basically 17:23:39 cookie stored option, that lets you select "random every time" 17:23:45 of different types 17:24:11 GregorR, what do you think about that way? 17:25:55 Fixed nojs. 17:25:57 Now then :P 17:26:13 GregorR: how does nojs.php even work? 17:26:19 some weird transformation? 17:26:20 GregorR, works 17:26:40 AnMaster: Yeah, that'd probably work *shrugs* 17:26:51 GregorR: also, why not just use a