00:04:26 <warrie_> If a program does nothing but output a single character many times, running it is probably a bad way of determining how many times it outputs that character.
00:04:46 * warrie_ takes a look at BF busy beaver
00:26:45 <AnMaster> well bf is deterministic depending on input
00:27:01 <AnMaster> so the same program should give the same count
00:27:19 <MizardX> Hmm... found an interesting blog when I tried to find the BFBB... http://eigenratios.blogspot.com/
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00:28:31 <MizardX> Eigen values is some special constants that comes from matrices, and a few other systems.
00:28:35 <warrie_> How would you determine the amount of output given by a program like +[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[-..]?
00:28:59 <AnMaster> warrie_, run it with a given input?
00:29:27 <AnMaster> doing it otherwise sounds like it would solve the halting problem
00:29:38 <AnMaster> you may be able to solve that specific case however
00:29:47 <warrie_> AnMaster: suppose there are 1,000,000 [->++<]>s.
00:30:09 <MizardX> characters will be printed
00:30:11 <AnMaster> warrie_, hm I think that may be well defined
00:30:21 <warrie_> Would you run it, or perform some simple calculation and end up at 2^1000001?
00:30:35 <AnMaster> yes since you can see much much every [->++<]> adds
00:30:56 <AnMaster> then figure out the rate for decrementing
00:31:35 <AnMaster> warrie_, but the general case of bf programs.. wouldn't that solve the halting program?
00:32:56 * AnMaster waits for warrie_ to explain himself
00:34:46 <warrie_> I find it likely at the moment that it's possible to take any program that outputs n (possibly infinitely many) characters and produce one that runs faster and outputs a number of characters of which n is a function.
00:35:59 <warrie_> Obviously, it's possible to run the [->++<]> program, note the number of characters it outputs, and produce the null program, with the function being a constant function.
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00:38:49 <Sgeo> http://www.getacoder.com/projects/bug_finder_92913.html
00:41:57 <warrie_> That there is a computable function F whose input is a program that outputs n characters and whose output is n if n is finite, where F runs faster than the trivial function satisfying this criterion.
00:42:01 <warrie_> That being the "run it" function.
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01:17:52 <pgimeno> Okay, my ORK interpreter now runs *all* demo programs correctly, including the Kipple interpreter.
01:18:21 <pgimeno> I've also added implementation notes and bugs.
01:18:31 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/orkdemo.php
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01:50:13 <MizardX> Eigenratio for the Conway's Life self-interpreter: 5760. ("That's the number of generations that need to be run in Dean Bell's unit cell at level N in order to emulate a single generation in level N+1.")
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01:58:51 <warrie_> I prefer the eigenratio 5760*500*500, since each big generation-cell is that many little generation-cells.
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03:49:56 <MizardX> Better description of eigenratio: http://eigenratios.blogspot.com/2006_08_18_archive.html (He was the one who named it)
03:52:45 <GregorR> Organ_used_homos: Please describe the reason for your nickname with NO DETAILS AT ALL
04:00:31 <Organ_used_homos> Here's an explanation with no detail : It was on another server.
04:00:37 -!- Organ_used_homos has changed nick to Slereah_.
04:00:59 <GregorR> Please include precisely one more level of detail.
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05:22:47 <GregorR> GET IT? GET IT? IT'S A PUN.
05:45:51 * GregorR randomly decided to look at JSMIPS again.
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05:49:01 <GregorR> Slereah_: http://codu.org/jsmips/
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12:12:22 <pgimeno> GregorR: impressive! (jsmips)
12:14:41 <Slereah_> Maybe I can do sum pi-calc with it :o
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12:37:27 <nooga> clock() does not work :C
12:40:52 <ehird> http://www.ladyada.net/make/fuzebox/
12:51:31 <pgimeno> 4K ram? good for 99bob and stuff but quite limited otherwise
12:53:35 <AnMaster> "NTSC RCA composite and S-video out (PAL not supported at this time)"
12:53:54 <AnMaster> that limits it's usefulness here in Europe
13:00:41 <ehird> pgimeno: it's for 8-bit games
13:14:27 <ehird> it seems that a fully functional VM is pretty hard...
13:14:33 <ehird> you need to pass everything to functions to get it working
13:14:38 <ehird> but you have to put the functions SOMEWHERE
13:14:48 <ehird> but that's mutation of the machine state
13:17:46 <Slereah_> I for one welcome our new robot overlord.
13:29:56 <ehird> ais523: appealing a cfj because of schildt
13:29:58 <ehird> THAT i can support
13:30:09 <ais523> ehird: wrong channel, but yes
13:30:23 <ehird> no, schildt's programming is esoteric
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13:41:38 <ehird> btw, http://www.wired.com/techbiz/people/magazine/16-12/ff_kaminsky?currentPage=all
13:45:09 <ehird> the attack is absolutely not cheap
13:50:17 <fizzie> The article, on the other hand...
13:50:20 <fizzie> "The vulnerability gave him the power to transfer millions out of bank accounts worldwide."
13:50:56 <ehird> But it's entertaining.
13:51:12 <ehird> Who reads wired for serious, somber articles?
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14:05:37 <Mony> salut Slereah_ ^^
14:07:00 <Slereah_> Je dis Mona car c'est le nom des chats de 2chan.
14:07:27 <Mony> c'est aussi le nom d'une femme
14:07:32 <Mony> or, je ne suis pas une femme :D
14:09:19 <Slereah_> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers6/Shii2.jpg
14:09:31 <Slereah_> (Mona vient de la police utilis pour les faire)
14:12:05 <ehird> The scary part is that I understood half of that conversation/
14:39:41 <ehird> who wants to think about a purely functional vm and how it's impossible
14:50:31 <Slereah_> Also why would it be impossible? :o
14:57:24 <ehird> Slereah_: yes, and because to do anything you have to modify e.g. the call stack or similar
14:57:26 <nooga> le francophonic invasion
14:57:29 <ehird> it's impossible to have a VM that only appends
14:57:39 <ehird> because at the heart, its based on memory which mutates
14:58:46 <Slereah_> ehird : Only if you consider every memory-part of the machine as the memory.
14:59:02 <Slereah_> Plus, imagine if your machine just rearranged its connections!
14:59:14 <ehird> Slereah_: well, show me a spec for a purely-functional (no mutation whatsoever) vm that lets you add two numbers
14:59:18 <nooga> what connections do you mean?
14:59:18 <ehird> i'll show the mutation.
15:00:24 <ehird> Slereah_: Show the specccccc :P
15:00:27 <Slereah_> Give me a program, I'll interpret it for you
15:00:58 <nooga> filthy ocaml junkie you are
15:01:08 <ehird> Slereah_ doesn't know ocaml
15:01:45 <Slereah_> Although I'm curious about picaml
15:02:07 <fizzie> To pick a single point out there, I'm not seeing why you couldn't have an immutable call stack.
15:02:42 <ehird> fizzie: how would you call a function?
15:02:50 <ehird> it's immutable. you can't change the call stack.
15:02:54 <ehird> it must not change.
15:03:19 <fizzie> You can construct a new call stack, though.
15:03:30 <Slereah_> Yes indeed. Whatever that means.
15:03:30 <ehird> fizzie: Where do you put it?
15:03:32 <ehird> You can't replace it.
15:03:52 <Slereah_> I just assume it means something along "Using memory-part as not the memory itself"
15:04:24 <ehird> fizzie: You can all very well construct a new call stack, but it just sits there doing nothing.
15:04:31 <ehird> You can't put it into VM memory; it's immutable.
15:05:50 <fizzie> You can pass it to the function.
15:06:05 <fizzie> It's more of a continuation than a call stack in that case, though.
15:06:13 <ehird> fizzie: Pass it to what function?
15:06:19 <ehird> You can't construct a function, it has nowhere to go in memory.
15:06:49 <ehird> You need to make a function then pass a reference to the vm so that it calls it.
15:07:00 <ehird> But making a function and getting a reference requires putting a function in memory, thus mutating memory.
15:07:25 <fizzie> Huh? I assume you have something that can allocate new memory, yes.
15:07:40 <ehird> fizzie: Yes, but the _in-vm memory cannot change_.
15:07:45 <ehird> that is the whole point: it's purely functional
15:07:56 <ehird> you cannot _mutate anything existing_ that exists inside the VM
15:08:20 <ehird> it's not about implementation
15:08:23 <ehird> it's about the deisgn of the vm itself
15:08:27 <fizzie> Uh... cons'ing new storage does not sound like mutation to me.
15:08:28 <ehird> all code in the vm is purely functional, that is
15:08:43 <ehird> fizzie: that requires changing the VM's memory.
15:08:47 <ehird> changing anything within the VM is not allowed.
15:09:18 <fizzie> It just means giving it new storage. I'm not sure why your completely functional VM would have mutable memory anyway.
15:09:29 <ehird> ... when did I say it would?
15:09:52 <ehird> fizzie: Since I absolutely cannot see how it is possible: how would you spec a VM that mutates nothing within the VM, that lets you add two integers together?
15:10:24 <fizzie> I think there must be some issue of definition mismatch somewhere.
15:10:43 <ehird> But how would you spec such a trivial thing?
15:11:42 <fizzie> I assume a purely functional VM would have (wrt. memory) a single primitive like (cons), which would not be considered mutation.
15:12:15 <Slereah_> Plus, why are you always thinking of Lisp?
15:12:25 <Slereah_> It's not like it's the only functional thingamagig.
15:12:37 <fizzie> Okay, a single primitive like malloc, then, if you want it to sound low-levelish.
15:12:41 <ehird> Lisp is not purely functional.
15:12:53 <fizzie> I think that was directed to me. I know it most, that's why.
15:13:01 <Slereah_> The lisp that is purely functional
15:13:05 <ehird> fizzie: I'm just asking how you can have a functional VM that lets you add two integers together. I'm not sure you can.
15:13:57 <fizzie> I'm not going to start speccing things. But it's a *virtual machine*, you can freely select what sort of primitives you provide.
15:14:16 <ehird> I do not think you can create a virtual machine that is able to operate without any mutation whatsoever.
15:14:30 <ehird> You've basically just said "you're wrong", soooooo...
15:18:21 <fizzie> Your VM can have "call this object as a function" as a primitive, for one thing. You don't need to construct any call stacks or do any mutation "inside the VM" to call a function, then.
15:18:30 <ehird> fizzie: how do you make an object
15:18:40 <ehird> push to a stack? ding, you just mutated
15:18:45 <ehird> put in a register? dinnnnnnggggggggggg
15:18:48 <ehird> put in vm memory? DINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
15:19:00 <fizzie> With another primitive that allocates new storage.
15:19:13 <ehird> Ah, and what does it return? How do you use the storage?
15:19:39 <fizzie> Okay, allocates and initializes to whatever you want.
15:19:46 <fizzie> Immutable storage, that is.
15:19:51 <ehird> fizzie: Variable sized objects?
15:19:54 <ehird> How do you initialize them?
15:20:20 <fizzie> You don't need variable-sized objects, but I don't see why that would be a problem.
15:20:32 <ehird> fizzie: In the actual bytecode.
15:20:43 <ehird> How do you initialize an object with a variable sized initialization?
15:21:09 <fizzie> The function call primitive can easily accept a variable number of parameters.
15:21:25 <ehird> ok, let's look at this example:
15:21:30 <fizzie> Or the storage-allocation-and-initialization primitive.
15:21:32 <fizzie> And you can build variable-sized objects out of fixed-size objects, anyway.
15:21:41 <ehird> that {...} has to mutate, to put it on the stack or similar
15:22:41 <fizzie> Huh? If it's a parameter to call, why would you need to put it on a stack?
15:23:04 <ehird> fizzie: {...} being a function
15:23:15 <ehird> Besides, how can call take variable parameters?
15:23:27 <ehird> I'm talking at bytecode-level here
15:23:36 <fizzie> It's a virtual machine, why couldn't your "bytecode" do whatever you want?
15:24:36 <ehird> fizzie: Obviously my Lisp interpreter is a virtual machine.
15:24:39 <ehird> After all, it runs programs.
15:24:42 <fizzie> A completely functional VM (with primitives like "apply") will probably resemble a functional-paradigm language quite a lot, since indeed you don't have registers or anything, just parameters and return values.
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15:31:04 <ehird> fizzie: I mean, a VM bytecode isn't exactly going to be efficient if it's a nested tree ala lisp.
15:31:15 <ehird> Yet it's kind-of hard to make a stack based VM that doesn't mutate a stack.
15:31:32 <fizzie> Yes; if you base a VM on mutable concepts, it is indeed hard to make one that doesn't use mutation.
15:32:15 <ehird> Well, yes, but the point is...
15:32:30 <ehird> If you make your VM use arbitrary nested trees of a few primitives... you've invented Lisp
15:32:32 <fizzie> A functional VM like that would not probably be very "low-level", which I guess is quite understandable, given that "low-level" pretty much means "close to the underlying system", which is very mutation-rich.
15:32:36 <ehird> (And yet most lisps compile down to a vm, heh.)
15:33:00 <ehird> fizzie: The idea is, it's a low-level thing, except the system it's being low-level on is a mystical immutable computer.
15:33:28 <oerjan> ehird: a VM can implement a purely functional abstraction even if it isn't purely functional at the physical level (which nothing in our universe can be, presumably)
15:33:44 <ehird> but...that's not the point
15:33:53 <ehird> the _VM WORLD_ has to be immutable
15:34:02 <ehird> i.e. everything you can access via the VM code has to be immutable in every way
15:34:06 <ehird> VM code = code running on it
15:34:56 <oerjan> ehird: you can do something monadic, the access calculates the next world from the previous
15:35:07 <ehird> yes, but that's not exactly very functional in spirit
15:35:19 <ehird> i'm talking more the lambda-calculus type
15:35:57 <fizzie> Well, you can probably make a purely functional abstraction that's on a "lower level"; you can easily get rid of abitrarily nested trees, at least. (As long as you allow constructing those with the cons-like operation.)
15:36:07 <oerjan> ehird: i am reminded slightly of reversible turing machines
15:36:36 <ehird> fizzie: The problem is trees in general; it's not very efficient.
15:36:42 <oerjan> the connection being that it is hard to remove information from those, since you need to uncalculate it
15:36:54 <ehird> cons 1 (cons 2 nil) vs nil 2 cons 1 cons
15:37:19 * oerjan should mention that he is not entirely sober, since that might explain something
15:38:11 <ehird> THe former needs a call stack.
15:38:25 <fizzie> Yes, if you want something that's efficient to execute a conventional computer, you'd probably best use a VM that's close to it.
15:38:28 <ehird> So now you've got something even less like a VM; CPS-transformed lisp.
15:38:36 <ehird> I'm not really interested in efficiency.
15:38:38 <ehird> Just low-levelity.
15:39:28 <oerjan> ehird: a kind of graph machine, where graphs grow like crystals, but generated parts of crystals cannot be changed
15:39:38 <ehird> oerjan: that, except lower-level :-P
15:39:46 <oerjan> crystals are low-level
15:41:09 <oerjan> isn't it muriel or something that only allows you to copy information forward? that's almost immutable
15:41:37 <ehird> Like SMITH, Muriel has no traditional control structures. Instead, Muriel has a command to replace the currently running Muriel program with a given string, and run that instead. This leads to a programming method where a program must quine itself in order to perform any sort of loop.
15:44:22 <ehird> [[. It has no jumps whatsoever; the instruction pointer can only be incremented, and only by one instruction at a time. As a substitute for loops, the language allows code to be copied forward where it will be executed in the future.]]
15:46:00 <oerjan> also there's Elephant (barely non-esoteric)
15:47:29 <oerjan> where everything about the past can be referenced
15:47:49 <ehird> ah, that's mccarthy's isn't it?
15:47:51 <oerjan> not low-level, of course
15:48:30 <oerjan> <ehird> Slereah_ doesn't know ocaml
15:48:38 <oerjan> impossible! he's french after all
15:49:50 <ehird> see, what i'm planning on implementing is a high-level smalltalk-alike, except it's purely functional, and prototype-based
15:52:00 <oerjan> it's developed by INRIA and Xavier Leroy iirc
15:52:06 <fizzie> Normal people would just do a "traditional" VM that's just a bit more functionally-oriented than the rest.
15:52:09 <fizzie> Like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SECD_machine was
15:52:47 <oerjan> fizzie: well this is ehird we are talking about
15:53:05 <fizzie> Yes, and this is #esoteric.
15:53:09 <ehird> To hell with traditional things, I want purely functional! :-P
15:53:25 <ehird> I don't actually care if it's slow, Squeak is a dog anyway - besides, I'm planning on writing the VM in the language itself
15:53:35 <oerjan> #esoteric can only do purely dysfunctional
15:53:36 <ehird> (As well as a bootstrap in-C vm&compiler.)
15:53:48 <ehird> (But beyond that...)
15:55:29 <Slereah_> Isn't dysfunctional the unlambda/BF mix?
15:59:03 <oerjan> but there is no reason we couldn't have more
15:59:21 <Slereah_> It doesn't roll well on your toungue.
16:01:11 <oerjan> THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE ... oh wait i just claimed the opposite didn't i
16:01:41 <Slereah_> I recall some language called 0x29C or something
16:02:29 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/0x29C
16:02:46 <ehird> anyway, current thinking: I need to figure out how to do a purely-functional, applicationy-language without having a lisp-like (nested (tree))
16:04:18 <oerjan> i say potayto, you say 0xP0TAHT0
16:04:47 <AnMaster> it isn't valid hex expressed in the common 0x way
16:05:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's base humor
16:05:21 <AnMaster> wait doesn't "base humor" mean something else?
16:06:17 <oerjan> you detected a pun. that still keeps surprising me.
16:06:25 <oerjan> especially when not sober
16:06:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, and, what is "base humor"?
16:06:48 <oklokok> oerjan: why aren't you sober?
16:07:19 <oerjan> because an old friend came to town and bought a bottle of red wine
16:07:43 <AnMaster> drink in moderation, or better yet, don't drink at all
16:08:04 <oerjan> it's the first time i drink since June. i think that's plenty of moderation.
16:08:24 <oklokok> AnMaster: why? drinking a lot is great for ideas, drinking a lot if great for getting things done that are not fun to do
16:08:40 <oklokok> *drinking a little to the first one
16:08:48 <oerjan> AnMaster: low-level humor, btw, iirc
16:08:50 <oklokok> the fucking latter one i mean
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16:09:09 <AnMaster> afk for the rest of the evening
16:13:58 <oerjan> this Orc thing, how is it esoteric?
16:16:17 <nooga> isn't Orc a bit old?
16:16:22 * oerjan goes on a blanking rampage
16:16:39 <ehird> delete, don't blank
16:16:58 <nooga> bottle of red wine?
16:17:08 <nooga> isn't vodka beter for blanking? ;p
16:18:34 <oerjan> hm we don't seem to have a deletion request template
16:20:06 <nooga> i have returned from breslavia todays morning and had no sleep
16:21:01 <oerjan> i know, it's easy to make that assumption from my air of wisdom and authority
16:21:37 <ehird> oerjan, why do you act sober when not sober?
16:21:49 <oerjan> i guess it's starting to wear off
16:22:46 <oerjan> it was only half a bottle after all
16:23:34 <nooga> half a litre per capita is the definition of nothing, as we say in Poland
16:24:05 <oerjan> if i wasn't seriously out of training it would probably have been nothing to me too
16:24:30 <nooga> heh, I can't drink
16:24:37 <nooga> maybe a beer sometimes
16:24:57 <nooga> ah, end of work, bbl
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17:22:38 <oklopol> http://esolangs.org/wiki/1cnis <<< doesn't perl have a "use" for getting bignums?
17:23:44 <oklopol> well yeah that wasn't really a question
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17:27:17 <oerjan> THEN WHY DID YOU USE A QUESTION MARK DUMBASS
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17:54:26 <oklopol> oerjan: i like you when you're drunk :D
17:54:32 <oklopol> well i guess you aren't anymore
17:54:52 <oerjan> i'm not half as think as you drunk i am
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18:03:04 <oklopol> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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20:36:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wat
20:37:09 <bsmntbombdood> <ehird> anyway, current thinking: I need to figure out how to do a purely-functional, applicationy-language without having a lisp-like (nested (tree))
20:37:23 <ehird> no mutation allowed, and it has to be low-level [it's a vm]
20:37:27 <ehird> keyword mutation there
20:37:36 <ehird> if you're pushin' 'n poppin' to a stack
20:37:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: changing.
20:44:44 <fizzie> I'm not sure how a "low-level"-feeling thing you'll get without having at least some registers. I'm sure you could do some sort of functional tarpit, though.
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20:45:43 <psygnisfive> http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.php?p=649306
20:46:10 <ehird> i think psygnisfive just set a record for "time until conversation reaches offtopicity"
20:46:12 <ehird> by starting off on it.
20:46:40 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | this is not the topic you are looking for.
20:47:40 <psygnisfive> i send that link because im curious if any of yous guys care to figure out some explanation for the phenomena that's explanation
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21:06:16 <Sgeo> psygnisfive, what?
21:06:30 <psygnisfive> http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.php?p=649306
21:07:04 <psygnisfive> yes, but this is esoteric. nothing is on topic here. :P
21:07:38 <ehird> i take it AnMaster commented inbetween
21:07:51 <ehird> in which case i'd like to tell AnMaster that this channel is pretty anarchic, and just about any topic goes.
21:08:04 <psygnisfive> no, i ask here because i figure you guys like solving queer problems
21:08:08 <oerjan> you could ask how to program a turing machine to follow that rule. that would probably be utterly irrelevant to how the brain does it.
21:08:12 <ehird> also, it's linguistics
21:08:16 <ehird> and esoteric-y linguistics
21:08:40 <AnMaster> hah, ehird changed point of view just to avoid agreeing with me
21:09:14 * ehird rreads logs. AnMaster: wrong
21:09:21 <ehird> i said it was off-topic, i didn't say that was a bad thing.
21:09:49 <psygnisfive> ehird: thats an idea. how would you design a TM to follow that rule, without simply /listing/ all the different versions
21:10:00 -!- oerjan has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | all talking in channel forbidden.
21:10:10 <oerjan> there, now everything is guaranteed off topic
21:10:27 <ehird> psygnisfive: i'd implement strong ai first.
21:10:40 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | The topic is everything that AnMaster doesn't say.
21:11:19 <ehird> if AnMaster says [[http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | The topic is everything that AnMaster doesn't say]]
21:11:22 <ehird> then he will cause a paradox
21:11:28 <ehird> and we shall exile him.
21:11:48 -!- AnMaster has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | The topic is everything that ehird doesn't say.
21:12:36 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | The topic is "AnMaster fails to sleep after saying so, due to defending himself against the annoying ehird, and probably sighing a lot in the process. /sigh".
21:13:16 -!- AnMaster has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ehird thinks this is funny. I suggest lament sets a sane topic and then +t mode..
21:13:28 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not going to happen
21:13:36 <ehird> the last time this channel was opped is when I got kicked on request
21:13:55 <ehird> if you don't like us doing what the fuck we want, make your own channel
21:13:58 <ehird> with a dictatorship.
21:13:59 <AnMaster> well you are free to ignore me, but please don't try to be annoying then
21:14:14 <AnMaster> also I never said it was bad either
21:14:23 * ehird reads logs. I'll be as annoying as I'd like, I'm very sure you have an /ignore. I do; it's very useful for ignoring your blabber.
21:14:24 <AnMaster> like you I just said it was off topic
21:15:40 <psygnisfive> well pretend its not a linguistics problem at all
21:16:47 <ehird> i didn't read most of the post
21:16:57 <psygnisfive> ok well heres a summary in linguistics-less terminology
21:17:21 -!- AnMaster has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | This topic may not be changed..
21:17:31 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | o rly.
21:17:53 <psygnisfive> in a sequence consisting of {A, B, C, X}, when any of {A, B, C} precede X, the ordering is always A-B-C
21:18:01 <psygnisfive> the ordering of those that precede, i mean
21:19:13 <oerjan> no, he accidentally all of it
21:19:25 <ehird> yep... the WHOLE thing
21:19:34 <ehird> i mean, i was just there, right
21:19:42 <ehird> and i accidentally the WHOLE WHAT YOU SAID
21:19:51 <ehird> jesus, it was really.
21:20:06 <ehird> After I accidentally it?!
21:20:10 <ehird> No way! Not again!
21:20:34 <ehird> You purposefully my whole face!
21:21:31 <ehird> You purposefully carrier lost
21:22:10 <oerjan> african or european carrier?
21:24:00 <ehird> For your breakfast lunchtime!
21:24:12 <oerjan> I love the lava live and it loves me...
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21:29:40 <oerjan> ok a silly idea, there are 5 slots. the first can only contain an A, the second B, etc., the last can contain any of A B C
21:31:40 <oerjan> the remainder is left as an exercise for the reader
21:32:26 <ehird> do you like smalltalk (the programming language, damnit)
21:35:37 <psygnisfive> when _any_ of {A, B, C} precedes X, the order is A-B-C
21:35:58 <psygnisfive> but when they follow X, the order among those that follow is unrestricted
21:35:59 -!- nooga has joined.
21:36:03 <oerjan> well duh the slots are ordered
21:36:50 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving").
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21:36:55 <nooga> so, was there a conclusion about this functional VM?
21:36:57 <oerjan> but order within a slot is arbitrary
21:37:14 <oerjan> though only the last slot can contain more than one element
21:37:46 <psygnisfive> so you mean theres something like [1] [2] [3] X [4]
21:38:09 <psygnisfive> [1] - [3] restricted to containing only one item, while [4] can have n items
21:38:38 * oerjan gives psygnisfive a C on the exercise
21:38:42 <psygnisfive> well this works, but its not very explanator :(
21:39:08 <psygnisfive> well the challenge was to find an explanatory way of describing the restrictions :P
21:39:23 <oerjan> you _really_ expect anything to explain it better than what you actually said?
21:40:02 <oerjan> the actual explanation may involve neuron structure and genes, in a horribly twisted way
21:40:05 <psygnisfive> sure! there are actually atleast two explanations that are relatively simple, in that the orderings just sort of fall out of the assumptions you put on the systems
21:40:20 <psygnisfive> oh i dont mean neuronal/genetic explanations i mean computational system explanations
21:41:01 <psygnisfive> there are two really simple explanations, as i said. they're both very very computationally oriented
21:41:40 <psygnisfive> rather than just an arbitrary specification like your slot hypothesis
21:41:51 <trave> would anyone be interested in checking out a diagram i put together, that attempts to associate the color spectrum to specific definitions?
21:42:12 <oerjan> that was just intended to be quasi-linguistic
21:42:23 <trave> http://illuminerd.wordpress.com/2008/10/12/om-resource-system/
21:42:52 <psygnisfive> im writing a paper for a syntax seminar on the restrictions that the formal system we use has
21:42:55 <ehird> trave: makes sense to me.
21:43:52 <trave> im hoping to work out a GTD style organizing system that you can log every aspect of "life" into color coded compartments
21:43:59 <nooga> looks colorful and nice
21:44:40 <trave> so, like if it was an iPhone application, youd have a spinning color coded sphere where you can keep track of things in bins
21:45:17 <oerjan> psygnisfive: i find the idea boring
21:45:39 <ehird> object-oriented design is the roman numerals of computing. -- rob pike
21:45:57 <psygnisfive> roman numerals in their original form were actually pretty darn useful
21:46:13 <ehird> he's right; although i like oop -
21:46:24 <ehird> roman numerals were useful, but that doesn't stop them being primitive
21:46:56 <nooga> psygnisfive: what is U20 v2 ?
21:47:00 <trave> what id like to see is relations between these object spheres, how resources are related between parties
21:47:41 <ehird> trave: i don't get it
21:48:39 <nooga> trave: i don't get it
21:48:43 <trave> id have to post this other word doc that i wrote up that explains the mechanics of the idea more, rather than the esoteric color associates
21:49:00 <ehird> wait, how are the associations esoteric?
21:49:10 <ehird> ... ohhh, you mean esoteric as in the non-programming language sense
21:49:11 <trave> colors == elements
21:49:24 <ehird> i didn't realise because this channel is often offtopic, but the official topic is esoteric programming languages
21:49:30 <trave> ooh, i didnt know esoteric was a programming language, hah
21:49:42 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language
21:49:47 <ehird> it's a type of proglang
21:49:50 <ehird> but umm anything goes here
21:50:23 <trave> ah that makes sense
21:51:07 <ehird> this is pretty much the most generic channel on irc.
21:51:49 <trave> well, the elements can be associated to colors, red/fire, blue/water, green/earth, etc. and the "purpose" of those elements can be given broader meanings... so like yellow == wind == words, etc.
21:52:22 <nooga> psygnisfive: you mean ... http://encyclopediadramatica.com/PMS
21:52:28 <trave> or green == earth == money/property
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21:52:51 * ehird doesn't understand psygnisfive's PM obsession.
21:53:09 <psygnisfive> well, im talking to him about that ordering stuff and im sure you dont want to hear it so
21:56:17 <oklopol> i don't like *all* numbers
21:56:42 <trave> just REAL numbers?
21:57:58 <oerjan> those pesky tranfinite numbers. coming here living off welfare and and taking our jobs.
22:01:45 <oklopol> oerjan: thanks a lot... my *mother* is a transfinite number
22:03:36 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
22:04:01 <oerjan> not to mention an expert in cardinal sins
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22:35:01 <nooga> textual esoteric languages are boring
22:35:31 <oerjan> so last year. this is the age of _smell_
22:35:44 <ehird> sexual programming languages.
22:35:45 <GregorR> ehird: Stage 69 has me beat.
22:35:53 <ehird> GregorR: which is that
22:36:10 <oerjan> clearly a problem in the sexual programming
22:36:11 <GregorR> oerjan: Hey ... I'm anosmic :(
22:36:29 <ehird> GregorR: what's the code
22:36:47 <ehird> also, ansomic: awesome
22:37:46 <ehird> it doesn't look hard
22:38:11 <GregorR> I can't get the third one.
22:38:16 <GregorR> The first two and last one are trivial.
22:38:41 <oklopol> is it the one with four uppity-caves you have to climb
22:38:46 <ehird> whats so hard about it
22:38:50 <nooga> what is that game?
22:38:57 <ehird> http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/
22:39:05 <ehird> it just looks tediou
22:39:12 <oerjan> GregorR: you should apply for a service dog that can translate the smells for you
22:39:24 <oklopol> it's pretty easy, you just jump, and hit left very quickly just as you're on the hole, so you get on the brink
22:39:35 <oklopol> you can only fail in the middle doing that
22:39:46 <GregorR> oklopol: ORLY THANX I NEVR THOT OF THAT LAWL
22:40:03 <GregorR> oerjan: Yes. Because anosmia is life-hindering :P
22:40:14 <ehird> ansomnia would be awesome
22:40:19 <oklopol> GregorR: err, you can't do it like that?
22:40:22 <ehird> smells, in general, aren't overwhelmingly interesting
22:40:31 <ehird> you get to not deal with all the crappy smells
22:40:52 <GregorR> ehird: Do you like tea, coffee or beer?
22:40:56 <oklopol> when i discovered that, i did it in two tries
22:41:06 <GregorR> oklopol: I can't get the timing right X_X
22:41:26 <GregorR> ehird: They all taste like bitter water to me.
22:41:26 <oklopol> GregorR: it's pretty trivial to just hit the button when you're at the hole.
22:41:34 <GregorR> oklopol: Yeah, well so's your face.
22:41:37 <ehird> GregorR: What about chocolate?
22:41:56 <GregorR> ehird: Dark chocolate is good ... it's a good bitterness ... bitterness combined with deep flavor ... like Moxie.
22:42:09 <oklopol> GregorR: i'm going to tell you that about every level until you beat 97 ;)
22:42:09 <ehird> So basically everything is bitter to you :P
22:42:15 * oklopol is at 98, and not playing atm
22:42:29 <oklopol> atm meaning like, probably not this week
22:42:37 <GregorR> ehird: Well, I don't like milk chocolate, that was just a bad example :P
22:42:49 <GregorR> ehird: Chicken does not taste bitter to me.
22:42:58 <GregorR> ehird: Turkey (more relevantly) does not taste bitter to me.
22:43:36 <ehird> btw, the last tower is the hard one
22:43:39 <ehird> the third one is easy
22:43:51 -!- trave_ has joined.
22:44:28 <GregorR> Whaaa? I did the last tower on my first try! All you have to do is get at the edge of each hole and jump, you can't overrun getting into the next hole so just hold down (and of course make sure to pull up before falling off the edge, but that's not hard)
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22:44:45 <ehird> Are we talking abotu the same one
22:45:40 <oklopol> isn't it more like bow-bow-chicka-wow?
22:46:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:46:21 <oklopol> i must flee now, i have AN INFINITE SET to prove things about
22:46:43 <oerjan> that's what _she_ said
22:48:40 <trave> in regards to how long you have to wait to get some?
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22:50:25 <oerjan> GregorR: falling into the lava again?
22:54:44 <nooga> GregorR: i had a friend who's dad falled from a cliff and crashed his head... after that he was forced to discover flavours again
22:55:10 <nooga> so he ate things like a sausage with chocolate and mayonaise
22:55:22 <GregorR> nooga: ... yum ... or not.
22:55:32 <nooga> or jam with pepper and cucumber
22:56:17 <GregorR> I notice that in both of your examples there's really only one offensive ingredient :P
22:56:33 <nooga> liver with strawberries + smoking a cig
22:57:56 <oklopol> GregorR is falling in lava? with whom?
22:58:22 <ehird> hey whazza full code again
22:58:35 <ehird> oklopol: wut iz it
22:58:37 <oklopol> but i think it's better if fizzie gives it
22:58:46 <oklopol> fizzie: can you give the full codie again?
22:58:56 <oklopol> fizzie: what's the code for 1-100?
22:59:10 <oklopol> fizzie: ehird wants to play can you give him the code?
23:00:09 <ehird> oklopol: wut izi t
23:00:19 <GregorR> fizzie: do u luv being spammed?
23:00:26 <GregorR> fizzie: cuz ur gunna get lots LAWL
23:03:55 <psygnisfive> http://infosthetics.com/archives/chocolate_pie_chart.jpg
23:04:39 <GregorR> What that chart tells me is that white chocolate sucks (which it does), milk chocolate sorta sucks, and dark chocolate is good.
23:04:59 <ehird> hey i like white chocolate
23:05:07 <psygnisfive> milk chocolate has the majority of the pie
23:05:10 <ehird> also milk chocolate. also dark chocolate.
23:05:25 <ehird> i... pretty much just like chocolate
23:05:44 <oklopol> chocolate is pretty tasty.
23:05:48 <GregorR> White chocolate isn't chocolate.
23:05:53 <GregorR> Don't go calling white chocolate a type of chocolate.
23:09:06 <psygnisfive> proper chocolate is just basically ground up chocolate bean + milk and sugar and such, while white chocolate is chocolate bean fat + milk and sugar and such
23:09:42 <ehird> btw, white chocolate is tasty
23:09:46 <psygnisfive> its only a lie if you require the phrase "white chocolate" to be strictly compositional
23:10:00 <GregorR> Also, the "such" contains the all-important and extremely-underrated ingredient vanilla.
23:10:07 <psygnisfive> and for "chocolate" to mean all and only the products produced using the whole bean
23:10:10 <ehird> vanilla is delicious
23:10:22 <psygnisfive> i hate it when people say "vanilla" is "plain"
23:10:24 <GregorR> And also a yellow-brown color.
23:10:28 <ehird> vanilla is not plain
23:10:33 <ehird> vanilla is tasty and exploding and MMMMMM
23:10:35 <psygnisfive> if you make icecream without vanilla, it tastes bland
23:10:35 <GregorR> psygnisfive: It's all the fault of American ice cream companies.
23:10:37 <ehird> everything is better with vanilla
23:10:41 <ehird> and everything is better with chocolate
23:10:42 <ehird> and everything is better with bacon
23:10:45 <ehird> chocolate bacon has been done
23:10:50 <ehird> vanilla chocolate bacon
23:11:06 <GregorR> There's vanilla in chocolate.
23:11:10 <GregorR> Therefore it has been done.
23:11:10 <psygnisfive> i actually refuse to make non-vanila icecream on a plain base
23:11:14 <ehird> but NOT ENOUGH GregorR
23:11:15 <oerjan> egg & bacon icecream has been done
23:11:20 <nooga> i do not like sweets
23:11:32 <psygnisfive> so much better if you start with a vanilla base
23:11:34 <nooga> when i eat something sweet, i must smoke immediately
23:11:35 <ehird> nooga: how dare you call chocolate sweets
23:11:40 <ehird> how dare you call vanilla a sweet
23:11:40 <nooga> to kill the flavour
23:11:45 <ehird> (how dare you call bacon a sweet)
23:11:50 <ehird> they are GODS of your PUNY EXISTANCE
23:11:55 <ehird> what GregorR said :P
23:12:03 <ehird> soon you won't have to smoke after sweets!
23:12:07 <ehird> or indeed eat at all! :D
23:12:25 <psygnisfive> gregorr: apparently most american white chocolate has no cocoa butter at all
23:12:38 <ehird> Smoking cures cancer! For some definition of curing! Or cancer! OR SMOKING!
23:12:47 <GregorR> psygnisfive: That's because it's a LIE! :P
23:12:53 <GregorR> Anyway, corned beef is good.
23:12:53 <nooga> non smokers are funny
23:13:04 <ehird> "Smoking cures cancer, if by 'smoking' you mean 'chemotherapy'"
23:13:08 <psygnisfive> GregorR: are you playing the sequel to Portal?
23:13:21 <oklopol> nooga: yes, smoking destroys the humor gland
23:13:23 <GregorR> psygnisfive: There's a sequel to Portal? X-P
23:14:06 <oklopol> hoping and joking don't mix
23:14:17 <GregorR> Yeah, well so's your face.
23:14:58 * GregorR has decided, spurned on by an episode of Scrubs, to use that in all situations in which it's nonsensical.
23:15:15 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, well so's your face.
23:15:20 <psygnisfive> GregorR: you needed the scrubs episode to motivate that?
23:15:24 <GregorR> Walked right into that one.
23:15:34 <psygnisfive> just being on the internet should've motivated you
23:15:34 <GregorR> psygnisfive: Yeah, but so's your face.
23:15:46 <ehird> oklopol: Yeah, well so's your face.
23:16:00 <oklopol> ehird: yeah i've been told that
23:16:27 <psygnisfive> i went into the Mixed Nerd Cultural Phraseology territory
23:17:42 <trave> what if the universe was created by a Big Bong?
23:17:54 <trave> the Big Bong theory
23:18:10 <psygnisfive> trave: the egyptians believed the universe was created by a very large ejaculation.
23:18:28 <psygnisfive> this theory might've been inspired by a big bong, however.
23:18:36 <trave> i need to join the OTO and participate in some of that
23:18:50 <nooga> and Big Bong theory assumes that it was a very large inhalation
23:19:38 <nooga> *greetings from cancer*
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23:20:54 <oerjan> then we have the theories of the Big Binge, the Big Bungee, and the Big Bongo
23:26:30 <trave> is there a "big gang bang" theory yet?
23:26:41 <trave> i think i just added that to the multi-verse
23:27:11 <nooga> i was wondering... from where did they get words describing things and abstract ideas in various languages
23:27:31 <psygnisfive> im sure theres some possible world where there is such a theory
23:27:38 <nooga> it's quite hard to make completely new dictionary from scratch
23:27:56 <trave> it started with Vowels from what I gather
23:28:30 <trave> theres only 5 "connecting" sounds, the consenants seem like theyre the static
23:28:39 <ehird> psygnisfive: that show stole a game from one of Wooble (from ##nomic)'s friends
23:28:47 <nooga> is it like "oh, i see that thing... let it be a wyeirmd... nah... or rather .... a tree ! (xD)"
23:28:48 <ehird> apparently. http://www.samkass.com/theories/RPSSL.html
23:29:27 <ehird> that game was invented 10 years ago.
23:29:38 <trave> hebrew numbers are represented by alphabetic letters, there is no separation
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23:30:20 <nooga> psygnisfive: what do you think about that?
23:30:41 <psygnisfive> ehird: still, how cool is that? someone from ##nomic, their friend, now has a game on a tv show
23:31:19 <trave> so, letters/sounds become associated to meaningful attributes, which then are strung together into words
23:31:20 <ehird> psygnisfive: well, he wasn't credited or told about it and the show apparently portrayed it as if it'd invented it
23:31:26 <ehird> and now people yell about it daily on his comment section
23:31:27 <ehird> saying he stole it
23:31:37 <ehird> i'm not sure the upside is good enough to cover that :-P
23:31:42 <psygnisfive> ehird: i dont think anyone believes they invented anything in the show
23:31:53 <ehird> look at the comments.
23:32:10 <psygnisfive> well ok maybe some people think it was invented in the show but
23:32:34 <trave> what I find interesting is that before man evolved to a state of verbal language, we communicated like how "primitive" animals do through chemicals and mental vibes.
23:32:39 <psygnisfive> made funnier by the fact that its all genuine
23:32:47 <ehird> trave: "man was originally primitive then evolved"
23:33:16 <psygnisfive> trave: individual sounds arent associated with meanings really
23:33:28 <psygnisfive> thats one of the things about language that makes it language
23:33:41 <trave> chemical communication is neat because it lingers over time, chatter so temporary and "secret"
23:33:44 <psygnisfive> the actual sound content of words is arbitrary
23:34:08 <nooga> but try to name things you see with your own words that arent riddiculous and do not resemble any words that you know for those things in the languages you know
23:34:25 <trave> well im talking about the beginning of verbal communication, its gotten pretty fragmented with so many new variations and dialects over time
23:34:33 <oklopol> nooga: how's that hard? i have python
23:34:51 <psygnisfive> trying to break out of that is difficult because the sound-meaning association is so very strong
23:35:06 <psygnisfive> trees just LOOK like they should be called "tree"!
23:35:25 <psygnisfive> but if you ask a french person, trees just LOOK like they should be called "arbre"
23:35:35 <psygnisfive> or a japanese person, trees just LOOK like they should be called "moku"
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23:35:42 <oklopol> also it's pretty simple to start thinking in a random inexistant language, only educated fools think languages we know make us associate words with them
23:35:58 <ehird> oklopol: you have to realise that you're bizarre
23:36:16 <oklopol> a tree? i think it's should be called something with a shizzle
23:36:18 <nooga> if you ask me in Polish, "co to jest?" (what is that) pointing a tree i will immediately say "drzewo" (a tree)
23:36:32 <trave> im curious about the ideas of orwells new-speak that
23:36:34 <nooga> but when you ask me in English, i would immediately say "a tree""
23:36:41 <oklopol> maybe with a CZZHHH at the end
23:37:02 <trave> ... reducing out all the redundancy out of language and working towards the most basic
23:37:04 <oklopol> nooga: it seems polish is pretty close to my idea word for tree then
23:38:55 <nooga> i wouldn't be glad about that in your place ;p
23:39:15 <psygnisfive> the sapir-whorf hypothesis, that language constrains thought, is false.
23:39:54 <ehird> i wish it was true because i like imagining AIs programmed in BASIC being really fucking dumb and yet making all kinds of cool shit
23:40:00 <ehird> brainfuck ones twiddling away for ages to do incomprehensible stuff slowly
23:40:35 <psygnisfive> a different way in which language affects "thought"
23:40:49 <psygnisfive> obviously since those languages are TC theres nothing one can do that the other cant
23:41:02 <trave> i get cha. the time it takes to read is already at the speed of thought, its arbitrary what the letter combinations are, its emotion that you are recording.
23:41:04 <psygnisfive> the sapir-whorf hypothesis tho is that we THINK in the language we SPEAK
23:41:27 <psygnisfive> trave: the speed of reading is actually not.
23:41:29 <ehird> i think in english
23:41:30 <nooga> a language that is capable of altering itself to the enourmous abstraction levels
23:41:32 <warrie> Fun experiment: read something, speak it, and type it all at the same time while thinking about something else entirely.
23:41:39 <psygnisfive> i dont mean what your inner voice is in, ehird
23:41:54 <trave> ouch, that makes my head hurt just visualizing that experiment
23:42:00 <ehird> btw, everyone has a little monitor in their head right?
23:42:07 <psygnisfive> inner voices are definitely in your native language, or whatever
23:42:09 <ehird> as in, you can display images sort of... in the block of space on your head above your eyes
23:42:13 <ehird> except it's kind of not there
23:42:16 <ehird> it's kind of everywhere
23:42:24 <ehird> i'm assuming this is normal
23:42:37 <warrie> Actually, you have to think about what you're reading to some extent in order to speak it.
23:42:37 <psygnisfive> what i mean is that actual _thought_ is in your language
23:42:40 <ehird> agh i just used that and eeeeek
23:42:46 <warrie> Just read it and type it at the same time.
23:42:52 <nooga> depending on situation i can think in my basic english, or polish or even both simultaneously
23:42:57 <ehird> psygnisfive: TELL ME WHERE THOSE IMAGES ARE
23:42:58 <ehird> :--------------------;
23:43:00 <psygnisfive> if your language lacked tense and words for time concepts
23:43:12 <psygnisfive> then you would be INCAPABLE of conceiving of the notion of time
23:43:34 <ehird> psygnisfive: what, you mean you can't display images in your head?!?!
23:43:58 <ehird> it just freaks me out.
23:44:02 <ehird> i can see them, but i can't see them in any place.
23:44:19 <psygnisfive> when you say see them but not in any place
23:44:29 <ehird> i don't see them with my eyes, i guess
23:44:31 <ehird> i just... perceive them
23:44:34 <warrie> I cannot think about calculus without thinking in English to some extent.
23:44:36 <ehird> I can "see" them but they're not placed anywhere.
23:44:44 <ehird> i'm assuming everyone else can do that/
23:44:48 * warrie realizes that he's had ehird on ignore all this time, and /unignores him
23:44:51 <ehird> i.e. just conjour up an image?
23:44:53 <nooga> it'r rather like you create a more or less abstract scene described in brain compatible format
23:45:00 <ehird> they're... nowhere, really.
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23:45:12 <ehird> psygnisfive: imagine a random scene
23:45:14 <warrie> I cannot think about calculus without thinking in images to some extent.
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23:45:16 <ehird> can you see it if you try to?
23:45:17 <trave> this is related to what that diagram i showed you guys is all about... all these various tangible/intangible "objects", can be organized into nested meaningful color-coded levels. for example: blue == water (emotions/life) == people...
23:45:18 <ehird> just think of an image
23:45:25 <nooga> and you know where exactly are things on that scene and what happens there
23:45:29 <ehird> you can perceive it, right?
23:45:32 <ehird> but you don't see it anywhere
23:45:36 <ehird> and there's no actual seeing to speak of
23:45:38 <psygnisfive> yes, but its sort of within my spacial model of the world, to an extent
23:45:51 <ehird> psygnisfive: does it like, appear in front of you?
23:46:03 <trave> if you have had enough mushrooms, it does
23:46:04 <psygnisfive> not that its anyhere in particular, but its not exactly completely dislocated from a spatial position
23:46:23 <psygnisfive> it doesnt appear in from of me in the sense that it looks as real as things i see with my eyes
23:46:25 <warrie> Use the word "hallucinate".
23:46:47 <ehird> psygnisfive: it kind of appears above my range of eyes
23:46:50 <ehird> it can appear anywhere
23:46:50 <psygnisfive> but it inherently has a position in my internal model of space
23:46:52 <ehird> without being there
23:47:01 <warrie> Most people can think of images. Most people cannot voluntarily hallucinate them.
23:47:03 <psygnisfive> well, ehird, i think we should distinguish two things
23:47:13 <ehird> i'm asking how they think of them
23:47:15 <psygnisfive> one: whether it "looks" the same as stuff you see with your eyes
23:47:24 <psygnisfive> e.g. can you tell whether its an imagined image or a real one
23:47:31 <nooga> painter can show you the image from his head
23:47:41 <psygnisfive> and two: whether it necessarily occupies a position in space or not
23:48:14 <psygnisfive> i can imagine something in front of my eyes, in my normal visual field, but its distinguishably not coming from my eyeballs
23:48:27 <trave> its the third eye :]
23:48:46 <psygnisfive> im not entirely sure i can envision it outside of my visual field. perhaps only partially
23:48:52 <trave> i had a pretty vivid dream once standing above my bed, i could see the room like plain as day.
23:49:07 <psygnisfive> but that does make a lot of sense, because visual imagination is _very_ strongly tied into the actual visual cortex of the brain
23:49:08 <nooga> it happens sometimes
23:49:26 <psygnisfive> infact, when you visually imagine something, your visual cortex looks exactly as it would if you were actually seeing that thing
23:49:31 <ehird> psygnisfive: right, I can picture mickey mouse on my deks, but it's very faint
23:49:36 <ehird> it's obviously not there, and it's very very faint
23:49:36 <trave> to be out of body or not be out of body, that is the question
23:49:51 <ehird> instead of trying to project an image
23:49:55 <ehird> just think of the image itself
23:49:58 <psygnisfive> completely dissociating things from places in the visual field is very difficult i think
23:50:05 <ehird> it'll appear *nowhere*
23:50:09 <ehird> and yet it'll seem to appear somewhere
23:50:13 <nooga> can you imagine a car that you hear on the street and place it on that street nest to your home while you can't see the car because there is a wall?
23:50:13 <ehird> but you won't be able to place where it is
23:50:14 <psygnisfive> ehird: well, think of an image, as in "think of the mona lisa"
23:50:14 <ehird> just htink of an image
23:50:33 <ehird> and... turn on imaging mode
23:50:40 <ehird> but don't try and project it
23:50:40 * warrie tries to think of his integration by parts picture without it being in any place
23:50:45 <ehird> just think of the actual image object that represents it
23:51:13 <warrie> I don't know if I can do it.
23:51:18 <ehird> it comes naturally to me o.o;;
23:51:25 <ehird> it's just what happens when i think of an imge.
23:51:32 <nooga> i can image mona lisa on the wall next to me
23:51:36 <psygnisfive> ehird: well, we might be experiencing the same thing
23:51:44 <nooga> or i can imagine it nowhere
23:51:55 <psygnisfive> but i do think its tied in to a location in visual space
23:51:59 <ehird> does anyone else have a mind jukebox? i can play full songs in my head at command.
23:52:09 <ehird> and modify them in any way while they're playing.
23:52:12 <ehird> it's weird. but fun.
23:52:22 <warrie> ehird: how easily can you pick apart chords and such?
23:52:31 <nooga> ehird: especialy Pink Floyd
23:52:35 <psygnisfive> i dont have the memory for full songs, but i can occasionally end up almost hearing a song in my head
23:52:40 <warrie> Do you have absolute pitch?
23:52:41 <ehird> warrie: not at all; it's just blobs of audio data, except I can imagine a tune and it'll do it
23:52:43 <psygnisfive> but this is all precisely what you'd expect
23:52:47 <ehird> i play with it so much that it invented a gui
23:52:51 <ehird> which appears in my no-space above my vision field
23:52:57 <ehird> it looks basically like winamp or xmms XD
23:53:20 <ehird> when i play back songs in my head
23:53:24 <trave> hah, thats fanciful.
23:53:24 <ehird> I don't hear them through anything
23:53:27 <ehird> or even hear in particular
23:53:33 <psygnisfive> sometimes my inner record play starts skipping :(
23:53:33 <ehird> i just... the sound is there.
23:53:41 <ehird> also, it's very low volume
23:53:54 <ehird> same as my visual projection is very faint
23:53:57 <ehird> psygnisfive: i know
23:54:01 <ehird> i've just always been interested
23:54:06 <ehird> in the sort of mechanics of it
23:54:16 <trave> our subconcious can probably just barely hear "our" end much the same way
23:54:17 <nooga> playing Pink Floyd - Dogs, second solo, atm
23:54:17 <ehird> i.e. how other people percieve it
23:54:41 <warrie> I have absolute pitch (though I can't easily recognize anything except G) and can pick apart chords with some difficulty. I think it would be a little bit cool to be a musical savant or something.
23:54:53 <ehird> I'm a musical idiot.
23:54:59 <ehird> i have absolutely no musical knowledge whatsoever, this saddens me :(
23:55:03 <nooga> being savant is cool
23:55:54 <warrie> If you can sing in tune, you're not a musical idiot. Otherwise, we'll need to perform further testing.
23:56:14 <ehird> warrie: I wouldn't know if I sang in tune. I couldn't tell.
23:56:18 <ehird> I mean, i'm not tone deaf.
23:56:25 <ehird> But I wouldn't be able to recognize if I was singing in tune.
23:56:35 <warrie> Can you recognize if other people are singing in tune?
23:56:38 <nooga> i can play the tune i imagine on a guitar if it's slow enough
23:56:50 <psygnisfive> ehird: interestingly, musical knowledge isn't stored in the brain in terms of absolute pitch but rather intervals
23:57:14 <psygnisfive> and its not stored in as just a single music-score like piece of information but rather a markov-chain-like structure
23:57:15 <trave> thats why all those 8bit nintendo loops get recalled in my mind so easilly
23:57:16 <warrie> nooga: then you're either more talented or more practiced than me.
23:57:19 <ehird> warrie: yes, that's pretty obvious, I guess
23:57:27 <ehird> also, I'm absolutely, absolutely useless at playing an instrument
23:57:54 <warrie> ehird: so if someone shifted in key by a little bit between phrases of the national anthem, you'd notice.
23:58:01 <ehird> warrie: Probably not.
23:58:41 <psygnisfive> ehird: have you read anything by dennett or ramachandran?
23:59:14 <warrie> I once had the opportunity to listen to other-smart-guy sing. I was disappointed at his lack of singing ability. I still wonder whether he thinks like me or not.
23:59:44 <ehird> btw, is there ANY person who hasn't come up with the idea of "what if everyone saw colours different to me - i'd never know"?
23:59:51 <ehird> absolutely EVERY person i've talked to thought of that at one point in their lives