00:00:37 <oerjan> well that was the essence
00:01:50 <Warrigal> I just a moment ago read that there has been horizontal gene transfer from bacteria to fungi and perhaps between two eukaryotes, on Wikipedia.
00:02:01 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_life_(science)
00:02:39 <oerjan> blasphemy! eukaryotes must be perfect!
00:03:16 <Warrigal> That article implies but does not actually state that horizontal gene transfer does not occur between eukaryotes.
00:03:51 <lament> heh @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tree_of_life_by_Haeckel.jpg
00:05:02 * lament wonders what haeckel meant by "egg-animals"
00:05:05 <Warrigal> So we're most closely related to either bats or sloths.
00:05:13 <oerjan> "There is some evidence that even higher plants and animals have been affected and this has raised concerns for safety."
00:05:24 <Warrigal> That looks like it says "Ovwaria".
00:06:35 <lament> http://nomen.at/Ovularia
00:06:37 <Warrigal> That's consistent, if "ul" looks like an au-ligature.
00:06:58 <lament> they're however completely missing from wikipedia
00:07:27 <ehird> length' xs = sum [1 | _ <- xs]
00:07:29 <ehird> okay that is clever.
00:08:13 <Warrigal> length' xs = sum [1 | sum <- xs]
00:08:19 <Warrigal> Same thing, only more confusing.
00:09:01 <ehird> Warrigal: Well done.
00:09:52 <Warrigal> length' xs = sum [1 | length' <- xs], as well. I don't know if length' xs = sum [1 | xs <- xs] would work.
00:11:14 <lament> i like length' xs = sum [1 | length' <- xs]
00:11:41 <ehird> lament: you can't like it
00:12:08 <Warrigal> I think length' xs = sum [1 | 1 <- xs] would give a type error and then a pattern match error.
00:12:23 <Warrigal> You could only use it on lists of Num, and then all the elements have to be 1.
00:12:42 <ehird> Warrigal: syntax error
00:12:46 <ehird> you can't do "1 = 2"
00:12:49 <ehird> which that boils down to
00:13:29 <Warrigal> , I think length' xs = sum [1 | 1 <- xs] will work just fine, though it might make xs be a list of
00:13:43 <oerjan> it counts the number of 1s in the list
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00:14:28 <Warrigal> List comprehensions just throw out things not matching the pattern?
00:14:52 <oerjan> just like do expressions
00:15:15 <ehird> do (x:xs) <- []; ...
00:15:19 <ehird> surely that is an error?
00:15:27 <Warrigal> It's only an error if you evaluate x or xs.
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00:15:46 <oerjan> that has nothing to do with it
00:15:58 <Warrigal> Likewise, I think 1 = 2 is only an error if you evaluate one of the variables on the left hand side. There are none.
00:16:01 <oerjan> do ... <- []; always shortcuts
00:16:31 <oerjan> but <- is not quite lazy
00:16:31 <ehird> huh, "let 1 = 2" works
00:16:46 <oerjan> it does check the pattern before continuing
00:17:20 <oerjan> ehird: actually you probably meant do (x:xs) <- [[]]; ...
00:17:38 <ehird> i was trying to get an error
00:18:01 <Warrigal> let False = True works the same way, I believe.
00:18:13 <oerjan> (x:xs) <- [] does not actually put anything in x or xs
00:18:30 <oerjan> because there are no list elements to match against
00:18:48 <ehird> but you said do blocks throw away non-matchers
00:19:07 <oerjan> i mean there is no list element to match the _whole_ of (x:xs) against
00:20:06 <oerjan> that could have given an error, except it actually gives a fail "match error" which is []
00:21:02 <oerjan> so none of those give a real error
00:21:26 <oerjan> however, do ~(x:xs) <- [[]]; ... will give an error if x or xs is used
00:22:02 <oerjan> the ~ makes the pattern lazy
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05:33:44 <Warrigal> This channel is now officially boring. Let's discuss artificial intelligence.
05:35:29 <Warrigal> Fantasy: Eliezer Yudkowsky is right about AI destroying the world if we're not careful.
05:36:23 <Warrigal> So, I read about EURISKO (Yudkowsky is also right about it being the most sophisticated self-modifying AI in existence), improve it, and eventually end up with an explosive self-modifying AI on my laptop.
05:36:48 <Warrigal> That is, on a spare laptop that has no Internet connection.
05:37:07 <Asztal> But won't it get lonely?
05:37:14 <Warrigal> I solve a Millennium Prize Problem with the AI, winning $1,000,000 and getting Yudkowsky's attention.
05:37:27 <Warrigal> No, it'll be able to play with different parts of itself.
05:38:26 <Warrigal> So, I send a copy of the AI to Yudkowsky, he agrees that it's easy to make safe for release, and we release it, and the Technological Singularity happens, and everybody's really happy.
05:38:31 <Warrigal> This will happen over Christmas break.
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08:18:30 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/vn-fredkin.pfk
08:43:46 <kwertii> And at 2:14 AM (EST), August 29th, 1997, EURISKO (improved) will become self-aware, and instantaneously decide that humanity must be destroyed.
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09:21:33 <M0ny> petit mal de tête au levée
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12:34:43 <oklopol> i don't understand french :<
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12:38:01 <Slereah> Let's make a French esolang, just to annoy oklopol
12:38:55 <oklopol> there is that one really crappy and stupid one
12:39:02 <oklopol> JUST LIKE FRENCH ALWAYS IS
12:39:38 <oklopol> i understand the first word
12:39:48 <oklopol> i'm assuming the latter is either "gay" or "hobbit"
12:40:29 <oklopol> "du" is a preposition, i'm guessing "outside of, but still feeling as if not"
12:42:24 <M0ny> c'était dans Dexter ça XD
12:42:59 <oklopol> yeah, dexter is a pretty tight dancer
12:43:01 <M0ny> http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=z_2V7g3jkVo
12:43:14 <M0ny> Dexter is a little genius
12:43:20 <M0ny> from a cartoon
12:44:20 <oklopol> well, really i know that only because "dexter" has become a normal english term
12:44:38 <M0ny> and it means ?
12:44:49 <M0ny> a pretty tight dancer ?
12:45:48 <oklopol> hmm. actually it's not from the show.
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16:08:05 <oerjan> <Warrigal> And I'll talk to it.
16:08:24 <oerjan> Yudkowsky claims even that is unsafe
16:10:10 <oerjan> and he has twice won in a simulated challenge to prove it
16:14:32 <Warrigal> Yudkowsky's the Black Box Challenge guy, too?
16:16:34 <oerjan> what black box challenge?
16:20:16 <oerjan> http://yudkowsky.net/singularity/aibox
16:24:12 <oklopol> i'd like to see the retard who he convinced to get him out
16:24:36 <oklopol> "talk for two hours, and don't press this button."
16:25:00 <oklopol> are the conversations public?
16:25:14 <ehird> i like how oklopol and psygnisfive read yudowsky's other articles, e.g. mundane magic, and talk about how they're all awesome
16:25:18 <ehird> whip out the ai box, oh that's just going too far
16:25:21 <ehird> he's obviously an idiot
16:25:35 <oklopol> ehird: what's mundane magic?
16:25:42 <ehird> oklopol: article of his linked a while back
16:25:50 <ehird> http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/mundane-magic.html
16:25:54 <oklopol> i'm not saying he's not right, i'm saying it's clear that experiment can't succeed
16:26:09 <oklopol> in a real life situation, yes, of course it could happen.
16:26:28 <oerjan> oklopol: i would say the conclusion of the experiment is that humans are way over-confident. no one believes they will let it out, still they do.
16:26:41 <oerjan> (well, some probably believe it)
16:26:52 <oklopol> ehird: that looks very boring, have i really read it and talked about it?
16:27:06 <ehird> well, psygnisfive at least did
16:27:29 <oklopol> oerjan: i'm one of those over-confident ones.
16:27:31 <ehird> oklopol: just because a random person on irc is incredulous to it doesn't mean it doesn't work.
16:27:36 <ehird> yes, of course I think i'd be able to pass it
16:27:56 <ehird> but the arguments presented, and the mailing threads linked to, make me curious and not so dismissive
16:28:03 <Warrigal> AI says, "You can talk for 2 hours in exchange for $20. I don't think that's a good deal." and then is quiet.
16:28:16 <ehird> theory: he paypals $50 to them to say they let it out after a few hours and skips the test
16:28:41 <oklopol> if the conversations aren't public, there's no reason to believe he didn't cheat
16:28:50 <ehird> oklopol: yes, but there's no reason to believe he did
16:28:56 <ehird> considering the mailing threads linked to
16:28:59 <ehird> and the protocols outlined
16:29:06 <oklopol> i can't think of any non-cheating arguments for the ai guy
16:29:15 <oklopol> so yeah i think it's very probably he cheated.
16:29:22 <ehird> oklopol: yudkowsky is a clever, rational, and honest guy on overcomingbias, etc
16:29:31 <ehird> why would he suddenly cheat, even though -nobody- believes hima nyway?
16:29:31 <oklopol> that's definitely something where only "outside the box" things work
16:29:41 <oerjan> oklopol: how can he cheat?
16:29:52 <oerjan> the other person declares whether he won, after all
16:30:04 <oklopol> i dunno, and i don't have to answer you, the onus is on him.
16:30:20 <oklopol> that would be so simple to prove, yet he doesn't
16:30:42 <ehird> oklopol: don't you think he might have a reason?
16:30:55 <ehird> being so dismissive and ignoring arguments is not a sign of great reason...
16:31:40 <oklopol> yeah there probably is a reason, probably he didn't want people to see he cheated
16:32:17 <oklopol> "18:30… ehird: being so dismissive and ignoring arguments is not a sign of great reason..." <<< was this about me? i don't see the relevance
16:32:25 <oklopol> i didn't say i'm a great reasoner
16:32:25 <oerjan> so what we need is a test person who is not only confident, but also unbribable
16:32:26 <ehird> oklopol: so explain why he'd cheat when he knows nobody believes him anyway, and he has nothing to gain from cheating, and why didn't the participants, who disbelieved him just as much as you, reveal him, and why would he suddenly cheat after being an honest, rational guy everywhere else?
16:32:59 <oklopol> ehird: that's a great mystery.
16:33:14 <ehird> oklopol: applying occam's razor, i'm inclined to believe he doesn't cheat over your unfounded, unjustified word
16:33:51 <oklopol> ehird: w/e; anyway, would be nice to see whether that actually works, psygnis and ihope tried it once, methinks
16:34:05 <oklopol> but that didn't work somehow
16:34:06 <ehird> oklopol: but that was retarded
16:34:29 <ehird> yudkowsky's whole life is devoted to ai research
16:34:34 <ehird> and he obviously has a trick to it
16:34:48 <oklopol> yeah, that's another possible reason for not showing the conversations
16:34:49 <ehird> psygnisfive vs ihope to prove whether it can be done is stupid
16:35:00 <ehird> because it's just not even relevant
16:35:10 <oklopol> yeah i'm not saying they could've shown it *doesn't* work
16:35:16 <oklopol> they could've shown it works
16:35:28 <oklopol> which would've been pretty awesome
16:35:33 <ehird> but convincing psygnisfive of anything is pretty hard :-P
16:35:36 <oklopol> i'd definitely like to see whether that works
16:36:00 <ehird> oklopol: of course, if presented with a log from yudkowsky you'd probably say "that was retarded, i wouldn't fall for that"
16:36:02 <ehird> i mean, who wouldn't
16:36:46 <oklopol> dunno. maybe people who are idiots, and don't know it?
16:37:03 <ehird> i'm an idiot and i know it
16:37:13 <oklopol> wait wait this is getting too complicated for me ;)
16:37:35 <oklopol> who wouldn't, err, the people who wouldn't are exactly those who are stupid and know it
16:37:55 <oklopol> so yeah, the minority you're in
16:39:10 <oklopol> maybe i should contact yudkowsky and ask for him to do the experiment with me
16:39:30 <ehird> oklopol: read the page again
16:40:02 <oklopol> my original point about this
16:40:07 <ehird> oklopol: oklopol oklopol
16:40:08 <oklopol> isn't exactly that i don't believe in that
16:40:16 <oklopol> that it doesn't really matter whether i do
16:40:27 <ehird> [[Currently, my policy is that I only run the test with people who are actually advocating that an AI Box be used to contain transhuman AI as part of their take on Singularity strategy, and who say they cannot imagine how even a transhuman AI would be able to persuade them.]]
16:40:49 <oklopol> what might be interesting would be things that may want a human to let the ai out.
16:41:20 <oklopol> ehird: well okay, then it may well be i'm qualified for the test in the future
16:41:27 <Warrigal> I advocate that an AI Box be used to contain transhuman AI as part of my take on Singularity strategy, and say that I cannot imagine how even a transhuman AI would be able to persuade me if I'm offere $100 not to be persuaded.
16:42:09 <ehird> Warrigal: you are not a well-known ai researcher specializing in singularity :P
16:43:00 <oklopol> indeed, i assumed that was required
16:43:06 <oklopol> otherwise i'm already qualified too
16:44:26 <oklopol> was the experiment done on people who actually did it because they didn't believe it would work both times?
16:44:30 <oklopol> and no i won't read the page.
16:44:41 <ehird> then i won't tell you
16:45:57 <oklopol> that makes it pretty much impossible to believe
16:46:51 <oklopol> anyway that's definitely a phenomenon that should be studied further
16:47:35 <oerjan> actually, for certain things believing strongly you will never do it is a sign that you might subconsciously have a desire to do so...
16:48:16 <oerjan> and might snap under the right circumstances
16:48:18 <oklopol> i don't really believe in the subconscious.
16:48:28 <oklopol> but if that's true, would be awesome to see it
16:48:45 <ehird> oerjan: homophobia :p
16:49:09 <oerjan> yeah that's a well-known example
16:49:31 <ehird> your MOM is a well-known example
16:49:36 <oklopol> yes, a well-known example of something that's only true in movies made for idiots
16:50:19 <oklopol> homophobic people find gayness distracting, and thus are less likely to turn gay.
16:50:43 <Slereah-> What about people afraid of death?
16:50:51 <ehird> oklopol: gayness distracting, what
16:51:06 * oerjan watches as both he and oklopol are about to be crushed by giant following [citation needed] signs
16:51:07 <oklopol> ehird: distracting maybe have been a bad choice of words :D
16:51:18 <oklopol> oerjan: i'm just going by experience
16:51:26 <oklopol> ehird: i mean like, "not nice" :D
16:51:37 <oklopol> "distracting" actually gave quite a different connotation.
16:51:38 <Warrigal> One theory is that Yudkowsky convinces the gatekeeper that they should "let him out" because that will encourage friendly AI research.
16:52:04 <oklopol> Warrigal: that would be cheating
16:52:16 <Slereah-> I am often distracted by gay sex
16:52:23 <ehird> you ALL HAVE NEW COLOURS NOW
16:52:25 <ehird> oklopol you are blue
16:52:27 <ehird> slereah you are orange
16:52:30 <ehird> COLLOQUY THEMES WOO
16:52:44 <Slereah-> NEVER HAVE I BEEN MORE ANGRY OR ORANGE
16:52:45 <ehird> hmm this thing needs more line spacing
16:52:51 <Warrigal> oklopol: which rule prohibits it?
16:52:56 <oklopol> that's why i can't believe it, everything i can think of, and apparently everything other people can speculate, is pretty much cheating. it only works *in an experiment*
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16:53:10 <oklopol> Warrigal: nothing. it's just that beats the point of the whole experiment.
16:53:30 <oklopol> "let me out so this test works! here's why that's good for you"
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16:54:25 <oerjan> oklopol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
16:54:51 <ehird> you no longer have colours
16:55:24 <oklopol> oerjan: i don't believe in that either
16:55:25 <oerjan> but you said i didn't have color
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16:56:27 <oklopol> To understand the process, consider a person in a couple who has thoughts of infidelity. Instead of dealing with these undesirable thoughts consciously, he or she subconsciously projects these feelings onto the other person, and begins to think that the other has thoughts of infidelity and may be having an affair. <<< seriously, i hate this movie already
16:56:42 <oerjan> oklopol: i predict that you will have a crisis one day that will prove to you it's true
16:56:45 <oklopol> that simply doesn't happen to sane people
16:57:15 <ehird> oklopol: but nobody other than you is sane in your world
16:57:15 <oerjan> oklopol: it is not normal to be perfectly sane all of your life
16:57:54 <oklopol> god language is hard today.
16:58:48 <oerjan> oklopol: freudian slip. deep inside you believe it >:D
16:58:52 <oklopol> actually that was because i knew you'd say that, and i only took a quick glance at the sentence to make sure i guessed right, now that we're on the topic of psychology.
16:59:41 <oklopol> freudian slips work. when you're thinking about something else than you're saying, these things may mix up.
17:00:22 <ehird> that is not the style i selected
17:00:37 <ehird> Fuck it, I'm switching to limechat. <3
17:01:46 <oklopol> also, oerjan, i don't seriously think it's unhealthy not to be logical all the time. or, to be more exact, explicitly know exactly what logic your actions are based on.
17:02:14 <oerjan> oklopol: argh, triple negation
17:02:24 <oklopol> that doesn't make it okay to do clearly insane things, though.
17:02:54 * oerjan runs after oklopol with a chainsaw
17:02:59 <oklopol> and doing something like accusing someone of infidelity without any concrete proof is insane.
17:06:16 * oklopol tries to read rest of article
17:06:41 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i'd get a heart attack if i tried to study psychology
17:08:01 <oklopol> well, okay, most of the lolly stuff seems to have come from freud
17:08:20 * oklopol noticed name and closed article
17:09:15 <oklopol> oerjan: can you juggle chainsaws?
17:09:38 <oerjan> i can barely juggle plastic balls
17:09:59 <oklopol> i can only do 3 plus some tricks
17:10:07 <oklopol> and well 4, but that's the same as 2
17:10:34 <oerjan> ehird: darn i put that "plastic" there precisely to _avoid_ your comments :D
17:10:52 <oklopol> i tried learning 5 when i was a kid, but that didn't work
17:11:07 <oklopol> could probably learn that in a few days now, maybe i should allocate the time somewhere
17:11:53 <oklopol> it took me weeks to learn 3 balls when i was about ehird's age
17:13:05 <oklopol> anyway point is, multiple weeks back then, now i've seen my friends learn the skill in a few days
17:14:34 <oklopol> and - how nice of my friends - they've all learned it at a different time, so i've been able to see how the motoric skills have developed automatically over time, many people my age can pretty much just take the balls and start juggling, while kids just can't see how it works
17:15:14 * oklopol finds the brain fascinating
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17:15:54 <oklopol> i should go buy something to drink
17:16:05 <oklopol> why don't you keep this up while i'm going?
17:16:07 <ehird> customer11529.pool1.Newcastle-HTL0207-BAS0001.orangehomedsl.co.uk
17:16:11 <ehird> that hostname is way too revealing
17:16:16 <ehird> although i'm not even in newcastle
17:16:36 <oerjan> ehird: you're in a pool?
17:17:32 <oklopol> "Abstraction is not clever." <<< what's teh context
17:18:09 <Warrigal> So, should we "practice putting 'quotation marks' around 'things'"?
17:18:25 <oerjan> it could be either someone dissing abstraction, or someone considering it too basic
17:18:50 <oerjan> but the latter would not be stupid enough for reddit i guess
17:18:51 <ehird> oerjan: sort of both.
17:18:54 <ehird> it was a stupid comment
17:18:57 <oklopol> also it can be either about abstraction, or some specific instance of it
17:19:03 <ehird> 17:18 <#haskell> haskell-newbie: Hello, is there some kind soul who wont mind helping a newbie in a project hes doing?
17:19:07 <ehird> why do people use non-names like that
17:19:09 <oklopol> if it's the latter, it's a poetic way to say it, but possible
17:19:11 <ehird> are we gonna like say
17:19:20 <ehird> <haskell-newbie> yeah i was just zygomorphic prehistomimes up the monad
17:19:31 -!- oerjan has changed nick to human.
17:19:38 -!- human has changed nick to oerjan.
17:19:56 -!- ehird has changed nick to fuzz.
17:20:01 <oklopol> i accidentally a sygomorphic prehistomorphism
17:20:05 -!- fuzz has changed nick to zuff.
17:20:12 <Warrigal> Note to self: Internet Explorer is not very good at rendering 3 megabytes of text.
17:20:16 <zuff> i liek this name
17:20:29 <Warrigal> (How many fantasy novels is that, again?)
17:20:59 <Slereah-> Nothing is good at rendering 3MB of text, really.
17:21:17 <Slereah-> oklopol : YOU ACCIDENTALLY WHAT?
17:21:20 <zuff> Slereah-: vi(1) is
17:21:30 <oklopol> Slereah-: i corrected my typo already
17:21:35 <zuff> oklopol: so, uh, the whole zygomorphic prehistomorphism?
17:21:45 <oklopol> zuff: yeah, there i was minding my own business
17:22:06 <oklopol> i accidentally the whole zygomorphic prehistomorphism
17:22:16 <oerjan> "capable of division into symmetrical halves by only one longitudinal plane passing through the axis"
17:22:56 <oklopol> oerjan: is that the definition of one of these wordphisms?
17:23:14 <oerjan> "bilaterally symmetric" is simpler though
17:23:19 <oklopol> "passing through the axis"
17:23:44 <oerjan> than the longer definition
17:23:46 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird.
17:24:13 <oerjan> but prehistomorphism appears to be vacant
17:24:14 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff.
17:24:40 <oklopol> whaddyamean passing through the axis
17:24:57 <oerjan> ah histomorphism has something haskell as its first hit
17:25:12 <oerjan> oklopol: you know what bilaterally symmetric is, right?
17:26:13 <oerjan> http://www.onlineordbog.dk/wordnet/no/17/zygomorphic.php
17:26:29 <oerjan> don't ask me what the axis does there
17:26:32 <oklopol> bilateral adds that it's symmetric around a plane
17:26:41 <oklopol> well i was just wondering what that added to it.
17:27:00 <oerjan> indeed i don't see why there needs to be an axis
17:27:37 <oklopol> also ehird actually talked about a "prehistomeme"
17:27:51 <Warrigal> "A Shock Level measures the high-tech concepts you can contemplate without being impressed, frightened, blindly enthusiastic - without exhibiting future shock."
17:28:01 <Warrigal> "SL2: Medical immortality, interplanetary exploration, major genetic engineering, and new ("alien") cultures."
17:28:16 <Warrigal> So if I'm blindly enthusiastic about interplanetary exploration, does that mean I'm below shock level 2?
17:28:22 <zuff> shit, AnMaster isn't ignored on limechat
17:28:48 <oerjan> that's obviously a neanderthal using body language only
17:29:17 <oklopol> does "histo" have to do with history?
17:29:46 <oerjan> the body language thing was for "mime"
17:30:10 <oklopol> but i'm talking about the "histo-", seems to mean body tissue
17:30:21 <oerjan> "From Greek histos , web"
17:30:53 <oerjan> so that's a medical reuse
17:31:17 <oklopol> so, from now one, i'm browsing the histos
17:32:51 <oerjan> er, "histos (Greek: "tissue"), "
17:33:02 <oerjan> apparently the histos does not agree with itself
17:33:06 <zuff> os x looks so much more cooler when you invert it
17:33:20 <oklopol> oerjan: that's internet oh right.
17:34:47 <oerjan> ""study of organic tissues," 1847, from Gk. histos "warp, web," lit. "that which causes to stand," from histasthai "to stand," from PIE *sta- "to stand" (see stet). Taken by 19c. medical writers as the best Gk. root from which to form terminology for "tissue."
17:36:14 <AnMaster> <zuff> shit, AnMaster isn't ignored on limechat <-- ?
17:36:45 <zuff> AnMaster: same bouncer.
17:36:48 <AnMaster> zuff, then why do you have ehird as both ident and realname?
17:36:52 <AnMaster> * [zuff] (n=ehird@eso-std.org): ehird
17:36:52 <zuff> bouncer issues
17:36:59 <AnMaster> * [ais523] (n=ais523@eso-std.org): (this is obviously not my real name)
17:37:05 <AnMaster> didn't cause an issue for him ;P
17:37:07 <zuff> i just came in here today
17:37:11 <zuff> so new bouncer account
17:37:19 <zuff> -> he didn't configure it right
17:37:36 <oerjan> yeah that stupid ehird never gets things right
17:37:57 <AnMaster> zuff, so where is ehird, and why "* ehird is now known as fuzz" "* fuzz is now known as zuff" :P
17:37:58 * AnMaster slaps zuff around with some missing humor
17:38:13 <zuff> AnMaster: I'm missing humour? what.
17:38:17 <zuff> that's rich coming from you
17:38:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: duh, the nick was obviously misconfigured too
17:38:28 <zuff> wow, was that meant to be a joke?
17:38:34 <zuff> that was awful.
17:38:36 <zuff> and what oerjan said.
17:38:52 <AnMaster> zuff, right, so what are you interested in? what eso langs?
17:39:07 <zuff> i'm pretty new to them, ehird told me about them yesterday.
17:39:22 <AnMaster> how comes he gave you a bnc that quickly hm?
17:39:27 <AnMaster> maybe I should ask him for one too
17:39:28 <zuff> 'cuz we're friends? :|
17:39:32 <zuff> i am a great fan of cfunge
17:39:35 <zuff> it's nice and fast
17:39:37 <zuff> befunge is a nice language
17:39:57 <oerjan> clearly insane babbling madness
17:40:07 <AnMaster> well I think that is sarcasm and/or irony. I would definitely say befunge98 is rather bloated
17:40:23 <zuff> TODAY ON "ANMASTER ANALYZES TEXT TO SEE IF IT IS A JOKE"
17:40:46 <zuff> "well I think that is sarcasm and/or irony"
17:40:46 <AnMaster> I just don't want to scare you by realizing it right away :P
17:41:19 <zuff> no, those are parenthei
17:41:23 <oerjan> a sufficiently analyzed joke is equivalent to a yawn
17:42:52 <AnMaster> I believe that is valid, I'm not 100% sure
17:43:09 <zuff> <p>a</> is valid.
17:43:35 <Warrigal> ( is a parenthesis, [ is a bracket, { is a brace, < is half a quotation mark in some langauges.
17:44:55 <zuff> Warrigal: ( = parenthesis, [ = square bracket, { = brace, < = bracket
17:44:57 <zuff> so, almost right
17:45:00 <AnMaster> ( is wax, [ is U turn, { is a embrace, < is angle
17:45:13 <zuff> AnMaster: ha ha ha.
17:45:40 <Warrigal> Oh, right, the standard INTERCAL naming system.
17:45:50 <Warrigal> ) is wane, } is bracelet, and I don't remember what ] and > are.
17:46:10 <Slereah-> Is there no rabbit unicode char?
17:46:32 <oerjan> dot below is an accent, isn't it?
17:46:51 <oerjan> so it should be possible
17:47:36 <oerjan> or perhaps a hungarian " accent on a dot
17:48:04 * oerjan doesn't know enough unicode to actually make any of those
17:48:58 <Warrigal> When writing sentences that end in quotes, I tend to put the period under the quotation mark.
17:49:23 <Slereah-> INTERCAL used to have dot and rabbit ears at the same time
17:49:34 <Slereah-> But that was back when it was in punch cards
17:49:48 <AnMaster> Slereah-, and ick can do it with back-space inserted iirc
17:50:11 <AnMaster> no it doesn't make a lot of sense to have backspace as an ASCII code but yes it exists
17:50:24 <AnMaster> Slereah-, non-printable ASCII code
17:50:40 <Slereah-> Hence "pix" and not "write it"
17:50:58 <AnMaster> Slereah-, well emacs shows it as ^?
17:52:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, well I guess my terminal messed up then
17:52:12 <Warrigal> Have a table: http://www.asciitable.com/
17:52:32 <Warrigal> Two columns to the right of ? is DEL.
17:52:48 <oerjan> Warrigal: hey i was on that page
17:52:53 <Slereah-> My table is prettyier, because 002-006 are pretty shapes
17:52:54 <Warrigal> Two columns to the right of BS is H.
17:53:09 <zuff> It is dark here.
17:53:13 <zuff> I am likely to be eaten by a grue.
17:53:20 -!- oerjan has changed nick to grue.
17:53:30 <Slereah-> "Groo Nickname is already in use."
17:53:30 -!- grue has changed nick to oerjan.
17:53:55 <Warrigal> Two columns to the right of RS is ^, so I guess RS is written as ^^. This also means that there's no good way to write ^, as it would be a ^ followed by RS.
17:54:17 <zuff> actually it is very dark.
17:54:22 <zuff> I can barely see. :D
17:54:50 <zuff> Straw poll: should I put some lights on?
17:55:08 <oerjan> zuff: no, don't scare the poor hungry grues
17:55:14 <Warrigal> It would be better to use a second- or fourth-column character to mean shift by two columns.
17:56:02 <Warrigal> #, say. NUL is #@, SOH is #A, SUB is #Z, US is #_, etc., then DEL is #? and # is #c.
18:09:12 -!- Slereah has joined.
18:09:50 <AnMaster> why does INTERCAL keep the name ampersand for &
18:10:00 <Slereah> Because it's already funny!
18:10:08 <zuff> AnMaster: because they couldn't think of anything funnier
18:10:12 <oerjan> i _think_ the manual already explains that
18:10:16 <zuff> oerjan: it does.
18:11:35 <AnMaster> hrrm can't find it in Revamped Instruction Manual for C-INTERCAL (0.29)
18:11:42 <Slereah> Or is it the other organs?
18:12:43 <AnMaster> huh in my copy of that I only see: texinfo internal error
18:12:44 -!- Slereah has set topic: Abstraction is not clever. -- reddit comment | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | You must be able to tell every INTERCAL joke to enter here..
18:13:36 <Slereah> http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/intercal-man/tonsila.html
18:13:36 <oerjan> if i never leave, i don't have to do that, right?
18:13:51 <oerjan> since i will not have entered, i mean
18:13:52 <Slereah> oerjan : Damn you loophole exploiting man
18:14:20 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:14:52 <oerjan> i exploited loopholes before i was born
18:16:07 <oerjan> also i used paradoxes before i was conceived
18:20:22 <oerjan> Slereah: it's AnMaster's job to explain obvious jokes, not yours
18:20:53 <Slereah> Hey, I don't want illegal aliens to take the jobs of hard working americans
18:21:02 <Slereah> Even though I'm neither hard working or American
18:21:09 <AnMaster> Slereah... stop stealing my job.
18:21:16 <zuff> AnMaster: shut up, dirty swede
18:21:29 <AnMaster> zuff, hey I showered only last week!
18:21:41 <zuff> Slereah: he is in VIRTUAL AMERICAN SPACE
18:21:43 <zuff> /kick AnMaster
18:22:00 <Slereah> By whom was created #esoteric?
18:22:03 <oerjan> #esoteric is american? i had the impression it was british
18:22:06 * AnMaster starts to sing the Internationale
18:22:18 <zuff> AnMaster: dirty commie
18:22:26 <oerjan> or possibly some EU thing
18:22:27 <zuff> oerjan: shut up, dirty norway...ian
18:22:37 <zuff> FACTS ARE USELESS
18:22:44 <oerjan> zuff: i fart in your general direction
18:22:56 <zuff> see, all foreigners are dirty
18:22:59 <zuff> especially foreigners like ME
18:23:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes, #esoteric has EU-bidrag
18:23:06 <AnMaster> don't know English word for it
18:23:07 <zuff> bidrag = DIRTY RAG
18:23:29 <oklopol> yeah this channel attracts bi's alright.
18:23:30 <zuff> shut up commie
18:24:03 <zuff> AnMaster: google.com/translate_t
18:24:51 <zuff> grants is a few letters away from GENITALS
18:25:00 <zuff> all europeans are PERVERTS
18:25:22 <AnMaster> yes #esoteric has an EU grant of 1.2 million euro / year
18:25:34 <Slereah> How is that money invested?
18:25:40 <zuff> that's about £100bn
18:26:02 <AnMaster> Slereah, no clue, ask ehird, I believe he stole most of it
18:26:11 <oerjan> would that be continental or american billions?
18:26:20 <zuff> oh, and that's $googl
18:26:44 <zuff> yep, that's the usd
18:26:45 <AnMaster> zuff, wait, million = 1 000 000 in English is it?
18:27:00 <zuff> billion is either 10 mil or mil mil
18:27:21 <zuff> bil = 1k mil | mil mil
18:27:35 <Warrigal> Just like "milliard" in English, I imagine.
18:27:57 <AnMaster> I don't use such large numbers written out
18:28:32 <zuff> 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
18:29:03 <AnMaster> zuff, please write out 10^10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 fully expanded in numbers
18:29:28 <oerjan> AnMaster: your big mouth
18:29:47 <AnMaster> zuff, sorry for that, please stop?
18:29:57 <Warrigal> 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
18:30:10 <zuff> AnMaster: i'm just being helpful, sheesh
18:30:14 <zuff> ah, thank you warrigal
18:30:16 <zuff> 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
18:30:18 <Warrigal> Actually, he makes a nice clock.
18:30:19 <zuff> 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
18:30:22 <zuff> 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
18:30:25 <zuff> 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
18:30:25 <Warrigal> We can see visually when what was said.
18:30:28 <zuff> 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
18:30:31 <zuff> 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
18:30:34 <zuff> 9*^~&*!%&^%CARRIER LOST
18:30:39 <AnMaster> Warrigal, hm I think the number is too large to write out fully
18:31:05 <AnMaster> my computer locks up when I try to calculate it ;P
18:31:11 <AnMaster> it is *probably* way too large
18:31:12 <zuff> AnMaster: no shit?
18:31:23 <Warrigal> Well, you need room for 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 digits.
18:31:29 <oerjan> it's ten decillions or ten novemdecillions, anyway
18:31:48 <Warrigal> If you memorized one digit per year, you'd probably finish before the heat death of the universe.
18:32:35 <AnMaster> Warrigal, what about number of molecules to write it out right now?
18:33:18 <oerjan> oh wait, i didn't notice the 10^. AnMaster, you are insane.
18:33:19 <zuff> digit, AnMaster
18:34:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, what? that I wanted to be acknowledged as insane?
18:35:00 <Warrigal> This is about 10^10^20. At 1 digit per year, 10^20 years from the beginning of the universe will be...
18:35:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, How else would I be able to win the IG Nobel price?!?
18:36:00 <oerjan> AnMaster: that is not a requirement
18:36:01 <Warrigal> ...in the Degenerate Era, after solar systems do not exist but before galaxies do not exist.
18:36:12 <oerjan> in fact being _too_ sane may be just as good
18:36:29 <oerjan> since then you might not recognize that your research is not
18:37:55 <Warrigal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_timeline_from_Big_Bang_to_Heat_Death
18:38:00 <Warrigal> So, where in there will everything be dead?
18:38:46 <zuff> define intelligen
18:38:59 <Warrigal> If our main energy source is protons, I guess that'll be at 160 on the timeline, or 10^10^(160/100) years from the beginning of the universe.
18:39:33 <zuff> Warrigal: no way we'll last that long
18:39:39 <zuff> where we = all intelligent life
18:39:42 <Slereah> "Proton" isn'the problem of enrgy source.
18:39:53 <Warrigal> That assumes, of course, that our using protons as energy doesn't deplete protons significantly.
18:40:08 <Slereah> If they disintegrate, so do you
18:40:29 <AnMaster> well I hope we can come up with a solution before then, it won't happen in my life time at least. Probably humans will be extinct way before then anyway
18:40:31 <Slereah> Also, it will be well before that.
18:40:39 <Slereah> Proton decay is an exponential drop
18:40:49 <Slereah> 160 is only when everyone will be decayed
18:40:59 <oerjan> if we stay intelligent long enough, we can just transform into another form. maybe we can live on the surface of black holes
18:41:18 <oerjan> those will last a long time, right
18:41:21 <zuff> I predict that intelligent life will disappear at around 110-115.
18:41:24 <Warrigal> Okay, half of them will be gone after 150.
18:41:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, err there are other issues with them
18:41:39 <Slereah> They last even less than protons.
18:41:45 <AnMaster> Warrigal, that is double logarithmic
18:41:52 <Slereah> IIRC, something like 10^100 years
18:42:21 <Warrigal> zuff: why will intelligent life disappear around 110-115?
18:42:48 <zuff> Warrigal: Degenerate Era, I guess. Well, it might be a bit after 120.
18:42:50 <Warrigal> AnMaster: I see "half of all protons have decayed", and to the left of it, some number above 150.
18:43:11 <AnMaster> but also notice what the 150 means
18:43:28 <AnMaster> that is 150 = 100*log(log(real_year))
18:44:32 <AnMaster> 10^32-1 would be nicer, a perfect number for it
18:45:39 <Warrigal> So the Degenerate Era begins around 115, or 133,000,000,000,000 years. We're at 13,700,000,000 years now.
18:46:18 <Slereah> Who cares. I'll probably be a bunch of neutrinos and positrons by then.
18:48:41 <oerjan> Slereah: actually it says black holes last longer
18:48:54 <Warrigal> And it'll probably be after the year 2066, which will be a pretty cool year, assuming 21st Century Fox is accurate.
18:49:45 <zuff> Warrigal: everyone knows it's 2012
18:50:04 <zuff> Slereah: new agers :P
18:50:26 <zuff> Warrigal: end of life
18:50:33 <Warrigal> 2066 because 21st Century Fox takes place in that year.
18:50:42 <Slereah> "I believe in dragons" kinda crazy.
18:51:23 <zuff> I know people who are friends with therians for some yet-to-be-adequately-explained reason.
18:52:00 <Warrigal> I used to believe that other universes could cause our universe to follow *their* laws of physics. Or maybe I'm misremembering.
18:52:23 <Warrigal> I do remember believing that Neopets really did exist *somewhere*.
18:52:36 <zuff> THEY DON'T? :O
18:55:40 <oerjan> Warrigal: it's not false, it's just unprovable :)
18:56:29 <Warrigal> If not-X is falsifiable, what do you call X? Verifiable?
18:57:10 <Warrigal> Assuming so, it's certainly not falsifiable, but whether it *does* happen is greatly verifiable.
18:57:12 <zuff> oerjan: ... which, for the sake of rationality and occam's razor, can be treated as false
18:58:23 * zuff notes that oerjan disagrees
18:58:34 <Warrigal> If something is neither falsifiable nor verifiable, it's not scientific.
19:00:37 <oerjan> Warrigal: "the Co-NP-complete tautology problem"
19:01:57 <oerjan> that was the opposite of satisfiable, not falsifiable
19:02:01 <Warrigal> I don't see what polynomial time has to do with this, but the concept is probably isomorphic.
19:02:59 <Warrigal> I think I'm going to treat isomorphism as if it were a relation rather than a type of relation.
19:04:32 <Warrigal> i is isomorphic to -i; the identity function is isomorphic to "it is given; Q.E.D."; rock, paper, and scissors are all isomorphic to each other; all numbers are isomorphic to 0, especially if they're very large, very composite numbers.
19:04:47 <Warrigal> But no number except 0 is *completely* isomorphic to 0.
19:06:24 <oerjan> Warrigal: it seems verifiable means something like that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verificationist
19:06:45 <Warrigal> There are lots of isomorphisms mapping 60 to 0, because 60 is very composite.
19:07:58 <Warrigal> Congruence modulo 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 15, 20, 30, and 60 all map betweek 60 and 0.
19:08:01 <oerjan> "This article needs additional citations for verification." yeah, right
19:08:55 <Warrigal> 1000000000000000000000000! is so isomorphic to 0 that you might as well just call it 0. :-P
19:12:24 -!- MisterOrange has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]").
19:28:48 <AnMaster> anyone know of a 2D open source space turn based strategy game? I just felt an urge to play that.
19:29:15 <AnMaster> either strategy or something similar, like strategy + exploring + colonization
19:29:48 <oklopol> stratego, explorer, colonization
19:29:53 <oklopol> i'm not sure why i said that.
19:30:56 <oerjan> oklopol: the acronym is sexcolon, so clearly it was a freudian slip
19:32:35 <oklopol> too bad it's not written colonyzation
19:33:48 <Warrigal> I want a game that consists entirely of exploration.
19:34:14 <Warrigal> And, you know, discovering things that are somehow useful.
19:35:12 <oklopol> i was thinking a game where you build fantasticcontraption-like spaceships and explore 2d space with them
19:35:36 <oklopol> maybe get scored on how far you can get from your home planet and shit
19:35:42 <oklopol> but otherwise just exploration
19:35:52 <oklopol> spore is nothing like that
19:35:53 <AnMaster> what I meant was something like:
19:35:57 <oklopol> game of life is nothing like that
19:36:02 <Slereah> Spore has plenty of exploration
19:36:11 <Slereah> If you want, you can do just that
19:36:23 <AnMaster> don't forget that was in the original list
19:36:25 <oklopol> Slereah: yeah, sure, but it's nothing like my idea
19:36:35 <Slereah> i have no idea what you're talking about, AnMaster
19:36:40 <oklopol> it's like Warrigal's idea.
19:36:56 <Slereah> I wasn't following the conversation
19:37:03 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> anyone know of a 2D open source space turn based strategy game? I just felt an urge to play that.
19:37:04 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> either strategy or something similar, like strategy + exploring + colonization
19:37:05 <oklopol> Slereah: of course you know what i'm talking about
19:37:07 <Slereah> I'm trying to find if there's an alternative to cremation/burial/SCIENCE
19:37:08 <AnMaster> that was the original question
19:37:13 <zuff> AnMaster: Why open source, pray tell? Are you going to be cheating by reading the source or something?
19:37:22 <zuff> Free as in beer I could understand.
19:37:54 <AnMaster> zuff, well it needs to run on linux
19:38:08 <zuff> There are free-as-in-beer games that are closed source and work on linux.
19:38:18 <zuff> Just not many, admittedly.
19:38:31 <AnMaster> zuff, I can't think of any such, got any example?
19:38:42 <zuff> I forget the name... loki games? Made them.
19:38:45 <zuff> Ports of windows games, mostly.
19:38:57 <zuff> Closed 2002, apparently.
19:39:31 <zuff> Most of their titles are for-pay; but I'm pretty sure I read about them making some free stuff
19:39:46 <AnMaster> "Eric's Ultimate Solitaire" i listed on the wiki page. I think I played something called that back on Mac OS 7 once...
19:40:05 <zuff> deus ex was "in progress" XD
19:40:52 <zuff> AnMaster: Code a game. :P
19:41:10 <AnMaster> zuff, right anyway, can you think a game that is 1) something like the game freeciv, but takes place in space 2) runs on linux 3) is either free as in beer or free as in OSI
19:41:33 <AnMaster> zuff, I would if I could make up any good story lines or such
19:41:47 <zuff> AnMaster: Games don't need good plots.
19:41:57 <zuff> "You are in space. You have to find things and stuff. And use those things to do things."
19:42:18 <AnMaster> and really I wouldn't want ASCII interface for it
19:42:32 <zuff> AnMaster: Make graphics like Asteroids or Space wars.
19:42:36 <zuff> Vector line art ftw
19:42:55 <AnMaster> zuff, well true it scales well, I mean not locked to fixed bitmap sizes ;P
19:43:16 <zuff> AnMaster: hey, I'm the one who _makes_ the obvious dirty jokes
19:43:20 <oklopol> usually you just need to have a few kinds of objects
19:43:22 <zuff> you're the one who doesn't get them
19:43:29 <oklopol> so why not just use a few different basic shapes
19:43:29 <AnMaster> zuff, really? I thought it was ehird who did
19:43:40 <zuff> AnMaster: I killed ehird
19:43:49 <AnMaster> oklopol, well, then what about making up game mechanics?
19:43:55 <Warrigal> < oklopol> i was thinking a game where you build fantasticcontraption-like spaceships and explore 2d space with them
19:44:22 <zuff> AnMaster: Come up with something.
19:44:34 <AnMaster> zuff, then finding time to code it
19:44:50 <AnMaster> also I hate GUI programming for some reason, always found backend much more fun
19:44:54 <zuff> AnMaster: You seem to have adequate minutes to explain in detail your requirements for it then talk about how you couldn't make it and be rebutted. :P
19:44:58 <AnMaster> but I guess I could use some language that made it easy
19:45:24 <zuff> Also, if you're using C, just write a simple game loop thing on top of Allegro or SDL that renders the vector stuff to screen and handles moving it etc.
19:45:24 <AnMaster> zuff, well I probably won't have time to make it soon, but maybe I'll start on it this xmas holiday
19:45:30 <zuff> Then you could code without thinking of the gui.
19:45:36 <AnMaster> or maybe I'll start learning haskell then
19:46:05 <AnMaster> zuff, I wouldn't use C for it, since it would be turn based I guess
19:46:08 <zuff> AnMaster: Oh lord. Please stick to the game. :P
19:46:27 <AnMaster> zuff, actually I have planned beginning with haskell then
19:46:29 <oklopol> Warrigal: yes, it'd be pretty perfect, the problem is it's kinda complicated, because i want planets to actually consist of millions of tiny particles
19:46:34 <zuff> AnMaster: no no no no no no no no >_<
19:47:01 <oklopol> so it has to dynamically make larger blocks out of the particle heaps and so one
19:47:28 <AnMaster> oklopol, what do you plan for RAM requirement?
19:47:38 <oklopol> i don't think fractals are useful unless you have a very static system.
19:47:54 <oklopol> they might be useful for generating the space, but i don't think for actually running it
19:47:55 <zuff> AnMaster: who cares about things like RAM?
19:47:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, just make time a fractal too?
19:48:12 <oklopol> AnMaster: that works for a static animation.
19:48:15 <AnMaster> zuff, someone who doesn't have a lot of it?
19:48:25 <zuff> AnMaster: how much ram have you got?
19:48:29 <Warrigal> A planet is a pile of dirt. A pile of dirt is made of smaller piles of dirt.
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19:48:34 <oklopol> AnMaster: i don't know how much ram i have
19:48:43 <zuff> AnMaster: 1GB here.
19:48:55 <AnMaster> zuff, well, you have even less
19:49:03 <zuff> And OS X isn't exactly light on the RAM consumption. Yet I have 20+ things open and it's smooth sailing.
19:49:16 <oklopol> Warrigal: well yeah sure you can think of it like that, but i don't see the use
19:49:25 <AnMaster> zuff, same, but if you want to store a planet as a list of billions of particles...
19:49:32 <zuff> AnMaster: Did oklopol said billions?
19:50:03 <zuff> He did not say millions.
19:50:05 <oklopol> AnMaster: when a planet is sufficiently far away, it can be compressed
19:50:17 <oklopol> from a million particles into about ten basic shapes
19:50:33 <oklopol> ...of course you could go around space making sculptures...
19:50:56 <AnMaster> also I assume all travel would be sub-light speed?
19:51:00 <oklopol> you're this little population of these weird aliens.
19:51:08 <oklopol> and you can pick up particles
19:51:11 <zuff> who cares about speed
19:51:12 <oklopol> and build things out of them.
19:51:24 <oklopol> AnMaster: i don't see a need for that
19:52:08 <Warrigal> In the computer world, it's easier to build things out of abstract concepts than to build them out of particles.
19:52:11 <oklopol> you'd fly around by building somekinda spaceships, there'd be certain materials that can be "burned" or something, and you could use them to shoot particles out the spaceship's ass to start flying, like a normal spaceship.
19:52:51 <Warrigal> Not having to simulate Newtonian dynamics is easier on the processor.
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19:53:00 <AnMaster> oklopol, you mean like dilithium crystals?
19:53:13 <AnMaster> and like, uh you reverse the, um, something to do it
19:53:33 <AnMaster> hey you could maybe make a tv show out of it
19:53:43 <oklopol> Warrigal: what's the alternative when you can build *anything*?
19:54:10 <oklopol> AnMaster: no i mean a particle that can blow up.
19:55:41 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh right, would be something like, Uranium-238?
19:56:15 <oklopol> AnMaster: i don't really care for a real world example of a similar substance
19:56:36 <oklopol> but really anything that burns fast will do
19:57:09 <Warrigal> oklopol: there's a grid, and shapes have positions on the grid. They're simple geometric shapes like squares and 45-degree right triangles. They have small amounts of state and have simple effects on their surroundings.
19:57:39 <oklopol> Warrigal: yeah, something like that
19:57:46 <AnMaster> Warrigal, what about gravitation?
19:58:00 <oklopol> gravity would be something that only happens when particles are connected into a mass
19:58:30 <AnMaster> also depending on how you define this... you could end up with a cellular automaton
19:58:44 <AnMaster> not sure how you define that grid and interactions and such
19:58:45 <oklopol> AnMaster: no not really, because you need to optimize it every step of the way
19:58:56 <oklopol> there needs to be abstraction going on all the time
19:59:09 <Warrigal> Gravitation isn't discrete, so it would have to be a modified version.
19:59:12 <oklopol> but yeah the rules, the laws of physics
19:59:17 <AnMaster> oklopol, or you could just buy IBM Roadrunner
19:59:18 <oklopol> those are pretty much a ca
19:59:40 <oklopol> err, is that the supercomputer they're advertising now?
19:59:48 <AnMaster> oklopol, isn't it the fastest one?
20:00:01 <AnMaster> broke some "barrier" of flops iirc
20:00:17 <oklopol> like a real supercomp okay
20:00:28 <oklopol> i thought the one they're selling for home use
20:00:31 <AnMaster> "Roadrunner is a supercomputer built by IBM at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, USA. Currently the world's fastest computer, the US$133-million Roadrunner is designed for a peak performance of 1.7 petaflops, achieving 1.026 on May 25, 2008,[1][2][3] and to be the world's first TOP500 Linpack sustained 1.0 petaflops system. It is a one-of-a-kind supercomputer, built from commodity part
20:00:31 <AnMaster> s, with many novel design features."
20:02:39 <zuff> I tried to convert game of life rules into a wolfram 1d automaton:
20:02:42 <zuff> 000 001 010 011 100 101 110 111
20:02:42 <zuff> 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0
20:02:48 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:02:53 <zuff> Did that indent arrive?
20:03:24 -!- sorear has left (?).
20:03:45 <zuff> Wonder what # it is.
20:03:45 <AnMaster> zuff, btw, what OS are you on?
20:03:50 <zuff> AnMaster: OS X. Why?
20:04:54 <AnMaster> like most OS it has some really good ideas and a few bad.
20:05:05 <zuff> oerjan: Is it TC? :P
20:05:17 <AnMaster> I dislike the bit about it being tied to Apple hardware
20:05:31 <zuff> AnMaster: Apple is a hardware company, except its hardware only sells because of its software.
20:05:35 <AnMaster> and that you can't find settings for everything easily always.
20:05:40 <AnMaster> but yes it has some really good ideas
20:05:48 <zuff> "everything easily always"
20:05:51 <zuff> Stunning sentence combination there
20:05:58 <oerjan> zuff: only 110 is known to be TC i think (and its equivalents, 104 is not one)
20:06:07 <AnMaster> zuff, sorry for the bad grammar
20:06:17 <oerjan> zuff: has it been proved?
20:06:22 <zuff> oerjan: I think so.
20:07:05 <oerjan> zuff: wp does not say so
20:07:54 <zuff> It obviously is. :P
20:08:17 <oerjan> it's that class 4 type, i guess. but that is no proof, just wolfram's hypothesis
20:09:00 <zuff> I do not trust wolfram :P
20:09:12 <Slereah> ais523 is the guy to prove Wolfram's hypothesises.
20:09:45 <oerjan> the picture of 104 looks boring, dies out immediately
20:10:23 <zuff> oerjan: just like in gol
20:10:43 <oerjan> actually that's just because the pictures start with a single cell and the rule always requires at least 2
20:10:54 <Warrigal> You mean there are Wolfram rules whose TC-ness is unknown?
20:11:01 <zuff> Warrigal: yes.
20:17:27 <zuff> oerjan: 104 is boring
20:17:29 <zuff> just produces lines
20:19:05 <AnMaster> <oerjan> zuff: 8+32+64 = 104 <-- how does that work?
20:19:35 <AnMaster> <zuff> 000 001 010 011 100 101 110 111
20:20:10 <Warrigal> 011 is the 8s place, 101 is the 32s place, 110 is the 64s place.
20:21:01 <oerjan> you sum the ones that give 1
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20:21:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, wouldn't it be possible to construct other ones with the same numbers?
20:22:02 <oerjan> or if you write it in the order 111 110 101 100 011 010 001 000, then you just take the bits below as the binary representation
20:22:19 <oerjan> so binary 01101000 = 104
20:22:21 <AnMaster> also 101 (base 2) is 5? not 32
20:23:19 <AnMaster> as long as you have 3->1 mapping
20:23:49 <oerjan> zuff: 104 seems to be able to produce something else than vertical lines, but more rarely and which eventually dies out in my first tries
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20:24:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about 2->1 mappings?
20:24:35 <oerjan> well then you would presumably use 11 10 01 00
20:25:04 <oerjan> AnMaster: those are boolean binary operators
20:25:46 <oerjan> i went through and checked once. none are really interesting, the most hard to predict are xor and its dual
20:26:04 <oerjan> AnMaster: you'd usually assume -> 1 anyhow
20:26:20 <oerjan> equivalence, not sure if it has an abbreviation
20:26:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, well what if I assume -> 2, probably a bully automaton(?)
20:26:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: but then you'd double the field size each step
20:27:08 <oklopol> oerjan: what's wrong with that?
20:27:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, fun, hope you got enough ram
20:27:11 <oerjan> i mean the table says what one cell becomes, given its ancestor neighborhood
20:27:29 <oerjan> hm maybe something fractal comes out
20:27:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, so you insert extra cells, like the expanding universe
20:27:41 <AnMaster> I think there is an interesting analogy there
20:28:09 <AnMaster> also I suggest using ternary instead of binary
20:29:30 <Slereah> Ternary is for terrible languages.
20:29:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: well sure you can do that
20:30:00 <AnMaster> Slereah, well ternary cellular automatons would be fun
20:30:25 <AnMaster> like ternary game of life: alive, on life support, dead
20:30:26 <oerjan> the wolfram scheme with 3 cells binary is just the simlest case that gives interesting automata, i guess
20:30:53 <oerjan> there are lots of life variations
20:31:05 <AnMaster> hey was the joke THAT bad or what?
20:31:40 <Slereah> Wireless keyboards are shitty.
20:32:05 <AnMaster> Slereah, you want one that can be recharged then
20:32:15 <AnMaster> also I use a old PS/2 keyboard
20:32:28 <Slereah> I want one with a wire, AnMaster
20:32:40 <Slereah> But they didn't have any keyboard with a 1.8m wire
20:32:48 <oklopol> AnMaster: yeah then you can make paramedic gliders that bring other gliders back to life!
20:33:14 <AnMaster> Slereah, I would say my keyboard cable is like 1.7 meters or so
20:33:15 <oklopol> also evil thugs that beat gliders up
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20:33:28 <Slereah> TEN CENTIMETERS NOT ENOUGH
20:33:39 <Slereah> oklopol : That would be THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME
20:33:44 <AnMaster> for usb you can get longer cables
20:33:50 <AnMaster> Slereah, I got an usb extension cable here
20:33:57 <Slereah> Longer cables for a wireless keyboard?
20:34:07 <Slereah> I cannot wrap my mind around such a concept!
20:34:07 <AnMaster> Slereah, no for usb keyboard...
20:34:26 <AnMaster> <Slereah> I want one with a wire, AnMaster
20:34:42 <AnMaster> <Slereah> But they didn't have any keyboard with a 1.8m wire
20:34:52 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> for usb you can get longer cables <AnMaster> Slereah, I got an usb extension cable here
20:37:54 <zuff> PS/2 is useless and obsolete.
20:38:32 * zuff becomes gradually more attached to this moniker
20:39:32 <oklopol> everything is useless and obsolete
20:44:47 <zuff> Any live cell with fewer than two live neighbours goes on life support.
20:44:47 <zuff> Any live cell with more than three live or life supported neighbours dies.
20:44:48 <zuff> Any live cell with two or three live or life supported neighbours lives.
20:44:50 <zuff> Any tile with exactly three live neighbours cells is populated with a living cell.
20:44:52 <zuff> Any cell on life support with fewer than two live neighbours dies.
20:44:54 <zuff> Any cell on life support with more than three live or life supported neighbours dies.
20:44:56 <zuff> Any cell on life support with two or three live neighbours becomes living.
20:44:58 <zuff> ^ game of life and life support
20:45:12 <zuff> Life supported cells are reccomended to be repeesented as the colour inbetween live and dead
20:45:38 <zuff> oklopol: implement it.
20:46:07 <Warrigal> I wonder if MCell could do that.
20:46:16 <Slereah> "The catterpillar has emerged from its coccoon, as a shark, with a gun for its mouth"
20:46:48 <zuff> Fine, I'll implement it.
20:46:54 <zuff> oklopol: got my minigame library?
20:47:18 <zuff> oklopol: i gave it to you months ago, c'mon, you must have it
20:47:21 <zuff> you made pong in it :P
20:47:28 <oklopol> yeah i have it *comeshwew*
20:47:45 <Warrigal> So Life, except life -> support and support -> death occur where death would occur, support -> life occurs where survival would occur, and death -> life occurs where birth would occur?
20:47:49 <zuff> find it and vjn.fi/pb it :P
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20:48:09 <zuff> Warrigal: There are some unchanged rules.
20:48:11 <Warrigal> And for certain ones of those, support counts as life, and for others, it doesn't?
20:48:31 <zuff> The theory is that every cell needs healthy neighbours to survive.
20:48:40 <zuff> And overpopulation is overpopulation healthy or not.
20:49:00 <zuff> Ditto with the right population, although that might need tweaking.
20:49:09 <zuff> Life support is just: have conditions improved, stayed the same, or worsened?
20:49:15 <zuff> If the first, it revives. Otherwise, it dies.
20:49:34 * zuff walks through a glider in it manually
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20:52:38 -!- nice_ has changed nick to KingOfKarlsruhe.
20:52:46 <zuff> Eh, it's too tedious.
20:53:17 <Warrigal> I don't think a glider will glide.
20:53:29 <Slereah> It will, it's right in the name!
20:54:01 <Slereah> Is that the glider? I forgot.
20:54:12 -!- ehird has quit (Nick collision from services.).
20:54:25 <Slereah> I know like three Life thingamagig.
20:54:37 <Slereah> The three basic groups, really.
20:54:52 <Slereah> A block, an oscillator and a spaceship.
20:54:54 -!- comex has joined.
20:55:03 <Slereah> Well, there's also guns, but they're too big to remember like that
20:55:43 <Warrigal> I know of a few still lifes, possibly more than one oscillator, and the glider and [LMH]WSS.
20:55:45 -!- comex has changed nick to zzuf.
20:55:48 -!- zzuf has changed nick to comex.
20:55:58 <oklopol> they're not that hard to remember if you understand how they work
20:56:06 <Warrigal> Actually, I know of infinitely many still lifes.
20:56:26 <oklopol> you mean, an object that is immortal, just sits around
20:56:30 <Slereah> Warrigal : Connected still life?
20:58:19 <Slereah> I wonder what the game of life would be if 2D automatons used the Wolfram numbering
20:58:50 <Slereah> Well, there's probably a shitload of numbers
20:58:59 <Slereah> Since the game of life is isotropic
20:59:09 <Slereah> Plus every color inversion
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21:11:58 <oklopol> Warrigal: yeah that works, i wasn't really thinking
21:12:36 <zuff> we should all collaborate on a program. :P
21:12:44 <oklopol> Warrigal: hmm, how can you start a sidetrack from that?
21:13:02 <oklopol> i mean you can't draw stuff having just that
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21:23:30 <Warrigal> Put them really close together.
21:24:02 <Warrigal> I believe MCell has an example.
21:24:10 <oklopol> that's really what i was asking for.
21:24:18 <oklopol> so kind of obvious i want that
21:26:47 <oklopol> err i mean the pattern, not the program
21:26:57 <oklopol> i was just wondering, i'm not especially interesting
21:27:08 <oklopol> i just assume you're currently more gol-able than me
21:29:18 <zuff> I will finish my Snake game in C and play it.
21:30:03 <oklopol> it probably has the worst user interface ever
21:30:18 <oklopol> there's a button to kill off player 2
21:30:27 <oklopol> and there's only a few seconds before the game starts
21:30:39 <oklopol> and it takes about that time to adjust your eyes to see the worm
21:31:16 <zuff> Kewel, my snake segfaults
21:32:13 * zuff wget http://www.vjn.fi/g/crossworm.pyc
21:32:41 <zuff> Fatal Python error: (pygame parachute) Bus Error
21:32:41 <zuff> zsh: abort python crossworm.pyc
21:32:47 <zuff> i cannot do crosseyes
21:32:47 -!- moozilla has joined.
21:35:21 <zuff> my eyes just don't do it
21:35:42 <fizzie> With one selection of colors and Wolfram-like numbering, Life would be rule 47634829485252037513201013286088668282768170057352664824758043712595701137265078991199718623260253982640356387398937188476931618032046341864.
21:36:16 <zuff> Welp, my snake game works, but about 40534853453745x faster than it should
21:36:45 <fizzie> It's just a 512-bit number; since there are 2^9 possibilities for the 3x3 square.
21:37:05 <fizzie> No longer than a reasonable SHA-512 hash.
21:37:36 <Slereah> But kinda long for a name!
21:37:45 <Slereah> Rule 110 rolls off the tongue nicely.
21:38:26 <fizzie> You could call it rule 0x100010001000101170117000100010117011701170117177E177E000100010117011701170117177E177E01170117177E177E177E177E7EE87EE8, too; that's shorter and more repetitive.
21:40:07 <oklopol> the first character is 0x10
21:40:10 <Corun> The second byte is a null
21:40:14 <Corun> Which is unfortunate
21:40:44 <Slereah> Why can't null have a cutesy symbol like SOH?
21:40:56 <oklopol> Slereah: hex -> ascii conversion is so trivial it's impossible not to be able to do it
21:40:57 <Warrigal> I'm sure we could all do with a few more control characters in our lives.
21:41:09 <fizzie> Rule AAAAAAABAAEAAQABARcBFwABAAEBFwEXARcBFxd+F34AAQABARcBFwEXARcXfhd+ARcBFxd+F34Xfhd+fuh+6A== in base64.
21:41:36 <Slereah> oklopol : What, you know every ASCII chars?
21:41:37 <fizzie> Maybe it could have a nickname like "the fuh rule".
21:41:56 <Corun> You mean you don't Slereah?!
21:42:22 <oklopol> Slereah: that doesn't mean i can't see 99% of that wasn't letters
21:42:46 <Slereah> Yes, but what of the letters? :o
21:43:43 <Warrigal> Hmm. Using # to mean XOR the next character with 0x40, $ to mean XOR it with 0x80, and % to mean XOR it with 0xC0...
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21:44:34 <fizzie> According to hexdump -C, which converts all non-printable and >127 too into a dot, it's ".............................~.~.............~.~.....~.~.~.~~.~.".
21:44:49 <fizzie> 0x7e ~ is just about the only readable thing it has.
21:45:29 <Warrigal> Okay, this instead: # toggles XORing with 0x40, $ toggles XORing with 0x80.
21:47:01 <fizzie> For the reference, I used the following to generate the bitstring for that number:
21:47:04 <fizzie> perl -e '$rule = ""; for ($val = 511; $val >= 0; $val--) { $bits = unpack("B9", chr($val/2).chr(($val&1)*128)); $self = substr($bits, 4, 1); $neighs = substr($bits, 0, 4).substr($bits, 5, 4); $nlive = $neighs; $nlive =~ s/0//g; $nlive = length($nlive); if ($nlive < 2 || $nlive > 3) { $rule .= "0"; } elsif ($live == 2) { $rule .= $self; } else { $rule .= "1"; } } print $rule, "\n";'
21:49:22 <zuff> My snake works
21:49:41 <Slereah> WHY DID IT HAVE TO BE SNAKES
21:50:28 <zuff> Okay I take that back it kind of works
21:52:06 <zuff> if (SNAKE->last->x == 0) n = 39;
21:52:06 <zuff> else n = SNAKE->last->x - 1;
21:52:12 <zuff> that can be compressed
21:52:20 <zuff> a simple modulo don't work
21:55:00 <oerjan> n = (SNAKE->last->x || 40) - 1 perhaps
21:59:09 <MizardX> n = (SNAKE->last->x + 39) % 40
21:59:16 <zuff> MizardX: Ouch. :)
22:00:38 <zuff> Best snake variant: You grow by one each move. Avoid hitting into yourself.
22:03:13 <MizardX> Easy as long as you follow some pattern.
22:12:27 -!- Judofyr has joined.
22:13:49 <zuff> 22:13 NickServ: penguinofthegods@gmail.com has too many nicknames registered.
22:13:52 <zuff> Suck my dick freenode.
22:16:16 <zuff> Warrigal: Lots.
22:17:40 <Warrigal> Oh, apparently I also have too many nicknames registered.
22:18:15 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to ihope.
22:18:26 <zuff> ihope: Rate my name from 1-10
22:19:41 <ihope> I've dropped some nicknames; let's see if I can drop now.
22:19:46 <ihope> Sorry, I only rate names ordinally.
22:19:52 <zuff> ihope: Do that then
22:22:47 <ihope> Perfect in the pronunciation category, antiperfect in the starting with a capital letter category, not as good as "Slereah" but better than "fizzie" in the containing an A, O or U (preferably A or O) category...
22:23:01 <ihope> s/pronunciation/pronounceability/
22:23:12 <ihope> Or is it pronuncibility or something.
22:24:20 <ihope> Antiperfect in the sonorant consonant category.
22:25:52 -!- ihope has changed nick to Warrigal.
22:26:34 <Warrigal> This nick has been registered.
22:27:41 -!- Slereah has changed nick to Incrediblon.
22:29:48 <zuff> Warrigal: I dislike initial-caps nicks.
22:29:56 <zuff> And it's a bit hard to pronounce, too many consonants.
22:30:09 <zuff> Also, I'd rank fizzie > Slereah.
22:30:16 <zuff> Also, you forgot the "short and memorable" category.
22:30:20 <MizardX> 'w' and 'x' is unregisterd.
22:30:20 <zuff> Which I excell at with zuff.
22:30:31 <zuff> MizardX: they're erroneous
22:30:36 <zuff> because they're quakenet servcies
22:30:46 <zuff> You can't /nick to them
22:30:59 <MizardX> -NickServ- Information on q (account jack):
22:31:10 <zuff> Yes, that was years ago, presumably.
22:35:35 -!- oerjan has changed nick to Mgrvgrvladje.
22:35:49 -!- Mgrvgrvladje has changed nick to oerjan.
22:37:11 <oerjan> (supposedly a genuine georgian surname)
22:38:00 <Warrigal> Nicks should begin with capital letters, A is the best vowel, and non-sonorant consonants should only be used to separate vowels.
22:38:39 <zuff> for(s=c='',r=64;r;)s+=++c>63?c=r--&&'\n':c<r?' ':~c&r?' ·':' ●';document.innerHTML='<pre>'+s+'</pre>';
22:38:57 <zuff> Warrigal: Justify the first point, I disagree. Also the second.
22:38:59 <oerjan> check |/ on everything except capitals
22:39:58 <oerjan> zuff: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:40:57 <oerjan> that's my comment on the debate regarding that thing
22:41:35 <Warrigal> Capital letters are like standing up. Sitting causes restlessness.
22:42:14 <zuff> Warrigal: But aesthetically, I prefer lowercase for names.
22:43:32 <Warrigal> Capital letters make them seem more like actual names and less like usernames.
22:43:47 <Warrigal> I don't suppose you plan on changing your name from Elliott Hird to elliott hird.
22:43:50 <zuff> Warrigal: I am fine with seeming like a username.
22:43:56 <Warrigal> Though that may be difficult and time-consuming.
22:44:01 <zuff> Also, my name is not aesthetically pleasing anyway.
22:44:14 <zuff> If I decide I like the name zuff, I would probably have no qualm changing my name to it IRL.
22:45:11 <Warrigal> I guess zuff sounds like getting scratched behind the ear.
22:45:12 <zuff> Warrigal: So I think you're wrong.
22:45:24 <zuff> But srsly, why is a the best consonant?
22:45:26 <oerjan> my name is Zuff. Dr., er, what first name goes well with Zuff?
22:45:43 <Warrigal> I was going to say Frank, but I'm not so sure.
22:45:59 <fizzie> You should invent a device; then it could be called Zuff's Device.
22:46:03 <oerjan> something suitably mad-sounding of course
22:46:12 <zuff> I think the problem is that it has no solid consonant.
22:46:28 <zuff> the z is weedy, the ff is awkward, kind of bu-ff-ery
22:46:39 <zuff> and the vowel is basically lost
22:46:47 <oerjan> z should be pronounced ts, of course
22:47:09 <Warrigal> I guess you need some solid consonants to keep the other consonants from drifting off to nowhere.
22:47:48 <oerjan> hm i wonder if zuff means something in german
22:47:51 <Warrigal> That's why the letter D is nice. It's a voiced stop consonant, and all.
22:48:09 <oerjan> hey there's a User:Zuff on wp
22:48:13 <zuff> pikhq: THat's JS. :P
22:48:16 <zuff> And I stole it.
22:48:20 <pikhq> Realised after the fact.
22:48:25 <zuff> oerjan: It's a four-letter combination; I'm not surprised.
22:48:27 <pikhq> Looks like good obfuscated C, though.
22:48:49 <oerjan> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=zuff
22:49:08 <zuff> oerjan: One definition made in 2006 and it's nonsensical.
22:49:28 <Warrigal> B, D and G are the voiced plosives.
22:49:45 * Warrigal ponders whether "Warribal", "Warridal", or "Warrigal" is best
22:49:50 <zuff> Warrigal: I content that Warrigal is a crap name because it starts on a downer with W
22:49:53 <Warrigal> "Warribal" looks too much like "cannibal".
22:50:03 <Warrigal> No, the W makes it swing! Or something.
22:50:03 <zuff> Which sounds awkward with the relatively harsher latter end, and the a following it is hard to munch together
22:50:12 <zuff> So I'd aim for improving the start.
22:50:49 <oerjan> http://everything2.com/e2node/zuff
22:51:06 <Warrigal> A "W" to swing and an "rr" to sing, then you jump off the "g" and land with an "l"!
22:51:36 <Warrigal> How are you trying to pronounce the "arr", by the way?
22:52:28 <Warrigal> It should sound exactly like "horrible", except "w" instead of "h" and "g" instead of "b".
22:52:37 -!- ab5tract has joined.
22:52:48 <zuff> Warrigal: That's how I'm saying it. It's awkawrd.
22:52:53 <zuff> Seriously, the Wa is what ruins it,
22:53:01 <oerjan> http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Zuff-family-history.ashx
22:53:15 <oerjan> it exists! or did at one point
22:53:49 <oerjan> a warrigal needs a furry gal
22:53:57 <Warrigal> Are you pronouncing the "rr" rhotically?
22:54:35 <Warrigal> I'd expect you to, as it's followed by a vowel.
22:55:24 <zuff> I'll make a recording.
22:55:25 <oerjan> you can huff and puff, but you can never snuff a zuff
22:56:50 <zuff> By the way, fizzie, zuff is derived from your name
22:56:54 <zuff> fuzz -> zzuf -> zuff
22:57:09 <zuff> Warrigal: http://filebin.ca/xcthqn/foo.aiff
23:00:55 <Warrigal> Um, that's not you saying "Armageddon" again, is it?
23:01:10 <zuff> Warrigal: Err, that's me saying Warrigal.
23:01:12 <zuff> Several times.
23:01:21 <zuff> I uploaded the wrong fil
23:01:38 <Warrigal> I think a recording of someone saying "Warrigal" several times would be really scary.
23:01:50 <zuff> Warrigal: Er, why?
23:02:23 <oerjan> people accidentally saying "Armageddon" when they mean something else would also be scary
23:02:43 <oerjan> especially if a lot of people started doing it
23:04:37 <Warrigal> Are you waiting for me to respond or uploading that file?
23:05:18 <oerjan> are you multitasking or mulling the task
23:06:24 <zuff> Warrigal: uploading
23:07:27 <zuff> Warrigal: http://filebin.ca/mhgzgx/warrigal.aiff
23:10:23 <Warrigal> Most of those are non-rhotic, though you do have two rhotic ones in there.
23:12:39 <Warrigal> Wait, "horrible" is pronounced differently in Britain, isn't it.
23:13:26 <Warrigal> This is why Americans are so much better than Brits. :-P
23:13:53 <zuff> Warrigal: Make a recording of you pronouncing it, then, so I can adjust my vocal cords. :P
23:13:53 <Warrigal> I'll see about recording me saying it.
23:14:58 <Warrigal> You just need to move your lips closer together, and your teeth.
23:15:36 <Warrigal> Gee, I just remembered that the official pronunciation of my name is actually completely different.
23:17:33 <Warrigal> I guess I'll do more or less what you did.
23:20:18 <Warrigal> Try http://filebin.ca/bkqth/Warrigal-US.wma
23:23:48 <Warrigal> In http://filebin.ca/bkqth/Warrigal-US.wma, she doesn't die at the end.
23:23:56 <Warrigal> I'm guessing zuff is finding a way to play .wma files.
23:24:04 <zuff> Warrigal: why wma? :{
23:24:21 -!- Judofyr has quit.
23:24:36 <zuff> No, I can play .wmas
23:24:38 <zuff> But I hate you
23:24:55 <zuff> Warrigal: WAHGL WAHGL WAHGL WAHGL WAHGL
23:28:33 <Warrigal> How do you like those pronunciations?
23:30:11 <Warrigal> They're both supposed to be three-syllable pronunciations. "Wahgl" is only two.
23:30:20 <zuff> Well, it's waaaaaaaaaahgl
23:30:24 <Warrigal> Though I'll admit the second pronunciation could have turned out better.
23:30:34 <Warrigal> It's supposed to be wah-uh-gl.
23:34:19 <Warrigal> If you pronounce Warrigal wah-huh-gl, I will... decrease your Credit. :-P
23:36:09 <oklopol> i pronounce it "very cool"
23:36:45 <Warrigal> I can see a non-native speaker pronouncing it that way.
23:41:38 <zuff> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahjjjjjjjjjj laggggggggg
23:41:45 <zuff> stupid "50 programs open at once i dont liek"
23:41:49 <zuff> RUN INFINITE PROGRAMS YOU POS
23:42:02 <Warrigal> That's why I have three programs open.
23:42:09 <oklopol> Warrigal: that's not the case
23:42:22 <Warrigal> That's why I have two windowed applications open.
23:42:53 <oklopol> in case you don't know yet, i find pretty much nothing more insulting than people telling me things that refer to my english capabilities as non-native.
23:43:21 <zuff> oklopol's awesome at english btw.
23:43:42 <oklopol> even when they're things like "non-native people like you are usually better at grammar"
23:44:43 <Warrigal> Do you mean you *actually* pronounce it that way?
23:44:45 <oklopol> well, of course anything that requires you to learn it younger than i currently am will do.
23:45:25 <oklopol> Warrigal: finnishified, i pronounce it [woorig(o-umlaut)l]
23:45:44 <oklopol> i can't type the phonetic characters for those
23:46:12 <oklopol> o-umlaut is what finnish uses for that vowel english uses in the word "a"
23:46:20 <oklopol> of course it's a bit different
23:46:27 <oklopol> but they're close relatives
23:47:40 <oerjan> the letters a and ö grew up together on a small farm in Värmland, Sweden, but later moved in opposite directions
23:48:59 <oklopol> yeah, ö became a poor fisherman who enjoys the sauna, and occasionally makes operating systems and cell phones for pocket money, while a became a successful businessman who everyone has a hate-love relationship with