00:13:39 <oklopol> sleepance for me too
00:13:40 <oklopol> ->
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01:36:17 <CakeProphet> What's Haskell's reduce function?
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02:21:30 <oklopol> CakeProphet: fold[rl]
02:21:36 <CakeProphet> got it.
02:21:49 <CakeProphet> apparently concat is what I want though
02:22:02 <CakeProphet> concat = foldl (++) []
02:22:05 <CakeProphet> I believe
02:22:43 <oklopol> yes
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05:00:15 <oklopol> o
05:54:57 <CakeProphet> alright, my Haskell knowledge is now to the point where I can write simple programs that utilize stdin/stdout
05:55:20 <CakeProphet> and I have a feeling I could figure out monads now that I know how Random works.
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08:18:38 <ehird> CakeProphet: yeah
08:18:44 <ehird> Random is basically an explicit monad
08:54:32 <ehird> A Personal Appeal From
08:54:32 <ehird> Wikipedia Founder Jimmy Wales
08:54:33 <ehird> NO
08:54:36 <ehird> FUCK YOU
08:54:38 <ehird> FUCK YOU WKIPEDIA
08:54:40 <ehird> AND YOUR FUCKING RED BORDER
08:54:42 <ehird> RED
08:54:44 <ehird> FUCKING
08:54:46 <ehird> BORDER
08:54:49 <ehird> I DON'T GIVE A FUCKING SHIT THAT YOU CAN'T AFFORD SHIT
08:54:57 <ehird> MAYBE YOU SHOULD COME UP WITH A BETTER WAY OF RAISING FUNDS THAN PISSING PEOPLE OFF
08:54:58 <ehird> WITH AR
08:54:59 <ehird> RED
08:55:00 <ehird> FUCKING
08:55:03 <ehird> BORDER
08:55:05 <ehird> EAT SHIT AND DIE
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11:43:50 <Mony> hihi
11:47:04 <ehird> hi
11:52:14 <oerjan> ^ul ((hi)S:^):^
11:52:14 <fungot> hihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihi ...too much output!
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12:08:59 <KingOfKarlsruhe> fungot: (< 1 2)
12:09:00 <fungot> KingOfKarlsruhe: a person, that player held that office. furthermore, the following
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14:32:24 <oklopol> o
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14:52:39 <oklopol> i think i have an idea how to implement brainfuck with + and - adding differentials
14:53:17 <Slereah_> Continuous brainfuck? :o
14:53:23 <oklopol> for the main loop, you first do a run where you just store the amount of differentials added to each cell
14:53:26 <Slereah_> Although you would need an infinity of 'em!
14:53:58 <oklopol> and also store the depencies for each loop, what cells need to become zero or one before their behavior changes
14:54:49 <oklopol> then it's just a matter of math to be able to add and subtract something from each node to make the branching behavior change
14:55:04 <oklopol> Slereah_: what? :)
14:55:49 <oklopol> toplevel inc's add and subtract a constant one, that's where you get actual numbers
14:56:00 <oklopol> and yes continuous brainfuck
14:56:21 <oklopol> so maybe contfuck :d
14:56:31 <ehird> oklopol: find a way to fit u's in to it!
14:56:35 <oklopol> u's?
14:56:50 <oklopol> oh
14:56:51 <oklopol> lol
14:56:52 <oklopol> :D
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14:56:55 * oklopol is slow
14:57:11 <oklopol> maybe unions then
14:57:52 <oklopol> if my idea works, this shouldn't be that hard
14:57:56 <oklopol> hmm.
14:57:58 <oklopol> output and input
14:58:06 <oklopol> how does that work :D
14:58:16 <oklopol> hmm...
14:58:45 <oklopol> maybe output could be graphical and input mouse only, so continuous output would make sense
14:58:50 <oklopol> continuous IO
14:59:16 <oklopol> not that that really gives any insight as to how to actually do it.
14:59:28 <oklopol> for instance +[-.]
14:59:46 <oklopol> should output the whole (0,1]
14:59:50 <oklopol> wait
14:59:55 <oklopol> [0,1)
15:00:26 <oklopol> except (1,0], because i guess the ordering matters
15:00:33 <oklopol> well.
15:00:41 <oklopol> maybe for now, it could just print in that notation.
15:01:29 <oklopol> +[-------------------.] hehe, exact same thing
15:01:38 * Sgeo should learn this quantum stuff at some point
15:01:57 <oklopol> +[>++.<-] should print (0,2]
15:01:59 <Sgeo> erm wait, you're not talking quantum, are you? Ranges stuff
15:02:07 <Sgeo> I know ranges or whatever
15:02:09 <oklopol> i'm talking about differentialz
15:02:23 <oklopol> well continuous ranges are very different from discrete ones
15:02:34 <oklopol> you can't apply the usual inductive thinking
15:03:00 <oklopol> which is why i'm very sceptic about this all.
15:03:22 <oklopol> just seems i solved it, can't see a problem in doing it like i explained (or tried to explain)
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15:05:29 <oklopol> Sgeo: the idea is +[>++.<-] first sets a cell to 1, because + does that when we're not in a loop
15:05:35 <oklopol> then, when we get inside
15:05:40 <oklopol> things get differential.
15:05:50 <oklopol> basically, we move to the cell on the right
15:06:01 <oklopol> and add two differentials (infinitesimally small numbers)
15:06:24 <oklopol> and then print that new number, move back, and subtract one differential from the 1 we put in the first cell
15:07:09 <oklopol> now, because these numbers are infinitesimally small, we will do an uncountable number of cycles
15:07:37 <oklopol> but
15:08:15 <oklopol> now all we need to know is the first cell always gets decremented once for each time the second cell incremented added twice
15:08:29 <oklopol> now all we need to know is the first cell always gets decremented once for each time the second cell gets incremented twice
15:08:34 <oklopol> a little typo there.
15:09:03 <oklopol> so, naturally as the first 1 gets decremented into a 0, the second one gets incremented into a 2
15:10:07 <oklopol> this is of course the kind of inductive reasoning that doesn't always apply with reals
15:11:15 <oklopol> but it does in this case, the crux of seeing why is to realize the logic that determines what is added to which cell during the loop doesn't change no matter how much the cell values change, until the first cell reaches 0
15:11:49 <oklopol> so we can start doing larger jumps than the infitesimally small ones, as long as we can prove we aren't "jumping over zeroes".
15:13:24 <oklopol> changing by a differential can't jump over a zero because if at some point a cell value is -a, and it changes to a by infitesimally small changes, we have to have gone through 0 at some point
15:14:29 <oklopol> adding differentials means, intuitively, that we enumerate through all reals, which is of course impossible, but you can get the behavior to be the same using math
15:14:35 <oklopol> but i'm just rambling, don't mind me
15:19:32 <ehird> hai oklopol
15:19:45 <oklopol> hy
15:21:58 <ehird> oklopol: so how come finns are like
15:22:01 <ehird> functional programming weenies
15:22:03 <ehird> and esolang weenies
15:22:05 <ehird> they're everywhere
15:23:01 <oklopol> well dunno, i've bumped into about 20 on freenode, out of 5 million
15:23:16 <ehird> oklopol: look in #haskell
15:23:17 <ehird> and grep for fi
15:23:19 <ehird> also
15:23:21 <ehird> msot people in here are finnish
15:23:23 <ehird> srsly
15:23:27 <ehird> most actives at least
15:23:36 <oklopol> well yes, true
15:23:38 <oklopol> i have no idea.
15:24:15 <oklopol> so, ehird. are you going to cambridge next year?
15:24:29 <ehird> oklopol: wat
15:24:53 <oklopol> wat wat? i asked you a random question, how can i justify it any further
15:26:49 <ehird> oklopol: specify cambridge further
15:27:15 <oklopol> the university, or college, i don't really know what the deal is between the two.
15:28:27 <ehird> I don't exactly have plans to try and see if they'd welcome a random 14 year old, no. :P
15:28:43 <oklopol> :-)
15:28:53 <oklopol> do you own at school?
15:29:16 <ehird> I AM REALLY DUMB
15:29:19 <ehird> I just play a clever person on the internet.
15:29:20 <ehird> ^ Lies
15:29:24 <ehird> ^ Lies
15:29:27 <ehird> ^ Infinite lies.
15:29:31 <ehird> ^ Not a lie.
15:29:50 <oklopol> oh i see
15:32:29 <oklopol> wait 14?
15:32:33 <oklopol> are you 14
15:32:36 <ehird> no
15:32:39 <ehird> but i will be next year
15:32:40 <oklopol> wait
15:32:42 <oklopol> next year
15:32:45 <oklopol> uhhuh! i get it!
15:32:51 * oklopol smartz it up
15:38:58 * AnMaster looks around
15:40:47 <ehird> AnMaster: you weird people have xmas tomorrow
15:40:47 <ehird> freaks
15:43:51 <oklopol> yay i don't have band training, can raed and coed <3
15:44:19 <ehird> oklopol: coed a cod
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16:17:08 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed we do
16:17:17 <ehird> weirdooooooooooos
16:17:20 * AnMaster whistles some xmas melodies
16:17:26 <AnMaster> ehird, you are just envious :P
16:18:00 <ehird> no, I'm not the weirdo
16:18:02 <ehird> who celebrates X
16:18:04 <ehird> on X ev
16:18:05 <ehird> e
16:18:37 <AnMaster> x? x-ray?
16:18:55 <ehird> X for all X
16:19:35 <AnMaster> ah
16:25:31 <Slereah_> *Rontgen
16:26:06 <oklopol> ooooooooooooo
16:29:06 <AnMaster> Slereah_, Röntgen yes, what about it?
16:32:29 <Slereah_> Rontgen ray, not X ray!
16:33:11 <oklopol> i hate it when concepts have people names
16:33:29 <Slereah_> Even Feynmann diagrams? :o
16:34:30 <ehird> |
16:36:28 <oklopol> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Beta_Negative_Decay.svg oh my god this is beautiful
16:36:47 <oklopol> Slereah_: yes, even feynman diagrams.
16:37:03 <Slereah_> You're a monster
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16:37:26 <Slereah_> What about the TURING MACHINE?
16:37:28 <Slereah_> HUH?
16:37:37 <oklopol> the interaction of balanced and unbalanced loops is very confusing in contfuck
16:37:54 <oklopol> Slereah_: universal machine is a better term
16:38:15 <Slereah_> Universal machine is confusing
16:38:32 <Slereah_> It could be the Turing machine, or the Turing machine interpreter on the Turing machine!
16:38:33 <oklopol> that's the beauty of taking terms from english and not names
16:38:39 <oklopol> oh
16:38:44 <oklopol> confusing like that
16:39:26 <Slereah_> The real Turing machine was originally called the automatic machine :o
16:39:34 <Slereah_> Or "computing machine"
16:39:43 <oklopol> both would be better terms than tm
16:40:27 <Slereah_> Or that worker in that box, if you use the Emil Post article
16:40:37 <Slereah_> I'm not sure he actually names the concet
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17:56:08 <AnMaster> <Slereah_> Rontgen ray, not X ray!
17:56:11 <AnMaster> same in Swedish
17:56:21 <AnMaster> röntgenstrålar
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19:08:40 <oklopol> ais523: are you here by any chance
19:10:48 <ehird> no
19:10:55 <ehird> oklopol: try /w ais523
19:10:58 <oklopol> never!
19:11:07 <oklopol> okay i did
19:11:09 <oklopol> what should i see
19:11:38 <ehird> oklopol: he's marked as away
19:11:44 <ehird> well, he's not
19:11:47 <ehird> but idle 22 hours
19:12:11 <oklopol> my /w doesn't show idle time
19:12:24 <oklopol> also 22 hours of being idle doesn't automatically mean you're not here
19:12:41 <oklopol> probably does for ais523 if he doesn't have an internet connection, but anyway
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20:10:15 <oklopol> o
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21:11:26 <ehird> hi oklopol
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22:29:46 <oklopol> hi.!
22:30:44 <ehird> oklopol: LESS MAKE LANUAGE
22:30:45 <ehird> :.:
22:32:27 <oklopol> :-=)
22:32:32 <oklopol> but i need to reeeeeead
22:33:22 <ehird> but oklopol
22:33:25 <ehird> if we make a language
22:33:28 <ehird> we can make a book
22:33:28 <ehird> about
22:33:29 <ehird> the language
22:33:31 <ehird> and
22:33:33 <ehird> then you can
22:33:35 <ehird> read
22:33:37 <ehird> it
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22:41:27 <oklopol> perhaps we should make a haskell-derivative in the nopular paradigm by making all functions return void
22:41:34 <oklopol> return () i mean
22:45:51 <oklopol> hmm. well you could cps tcness, just that you couldn't output the result at the nodes of evaluation
22:47:07 <ehird> oklopol: how about haskell that only has
22:47:13 <ehird> no functions
22:47:14 <ehird> just
22:47:17 <ehird> application
22:47:25 <ehird> and you make programs out of infinite nested applications
22:49:15 <oklopol> hmm. no functions? you mean not even predefined ones
22:49:36 <oklopol> i mean if there's predefined functions, you can just do point-free
22:50:22 <ehird> oklopol: no predefined
22:50:29 <ehird> it's all based on the structure of the applications
22:50:37 <ehird> infinite, naturally
22:50:39 <ehird> oklopol: basically
22:50:46 <ehird> you write your program in a sub-TC metalanguage
22:50:53 <ehird> that describes an infinite tree of applications
22:50:55 <ehird> maybe even a graph
22:50:56 <ehird> then
22:50:58 <ehird> semantics
22:51:01 <ehird> on top of the structure of it
22:52:38 <ehird> oklopol: the interpreter could output a nice png or w/e
22:52:41 <ehird> at any scale
22:52:45 <ehird> heck, you could construct fractal programs
22:53:58 <oklopol> infinite programs are niec
22:54:23 <oklopol> fractal programs? preprocessor macros that allow recursion
22:55:04 <ehird> oklopol: you have to code in a metalanguage, beacuse the programs are an infinite tree/graph
22:56:59 <oklopol> yes that is an inevitability
22:57:08 <oklopol> i think i should change book again
22:57:43 <oklopol> or sleep
22:57:48 <oklopol> sleep or read?
22:57:50 <oklopol> ^bool
22:57:50 <fungot> No.
22:57:56 <oklopol> err.
22:57:58 <oklopol> wait
22:58:03 <oklopol> that didn't help!
22:58:09 <oklopol> sleep?
22:58:11 <oklopol> ^bool
22:58:11 <fungot> Yes.
22:58:14 <oklopol> :|
22:58:19 <oklopol> yeah right, i'm gonna eat
22:59:14 <ehird> but it'll be sub-tc
22:59:41 <ehird> so its just a metalanguage
23:00:44 <ehird> oklopol: circle program:
23:00:53 <ehird> well
23:00:58 <ehird> little looping program
23:00:59 <ehird> same thing
23:00:59 <ehird> :P
23:01:13 <ehird> () * ();
23:01:27 <ehird> two-point loop
23:01:29 <ehird> a * ();
23:01:30 <ehird> () * a;
23:01:44 <ehird> line to a loop
23:01:46 <ehird> () * a;
23:01:47 <ehird> a * b;
23:01:48 <ehird> b * a;
23:02:01 <ehird> line to both ends of a loop
23:02:10 <ehird> () * (a / b);
23:02:11 <ehird> a * b;
23:02:12 <ehird> b * a;
23:02:22 <ehird> () = main program
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23:03:55 <ehird> oklopol: ??
23:03:56 <ehird> :D
23:05:03 <oklopol> oh... my...... god
23:05:04 <oklopol> that's
23:05:06 <oklopol> AWESOME
23:05:07 <oklopol> !!
23:05:11 <oklopol> \\OO//
23:05:12 <ehird> oklopol: isn't it just!
23:05:16 <oklopol> YES
23:05:20 <ehird> the hard part is assigning meaningful semantics ofc
23:05:22 <ehird> but the point is
23:05:26 <ehird> you have basically a graph language.
23:05:30 <oklopol> it's FAIRLY and QUITE awesome.
23:05:36 <ehird> wow, I impressed oklopol
23:05:39 <ehird> are you sure you're not being sarcastic?
23:05:55 <oklopol> i'm being 100% sarcastic and not sarcastic at the same time.
23:06:04 <ehird> oklopol: so is it awesome or not
23:06:06 -!- lolbot has quit.
23:06:07 <oklopol> i'm quantum sarcastic.
23:06:20 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
23:06:26 <oklopol> is * a rewriting thingie
23:06:26 -!- lolbot has joined.
23:06:33 <oklopol> psygnisfive: what are you doing here?
23:06:33 <Slereah_> What's your sarcastic wave function?
23:06:41 <psygnisfive> what do you mean what am i doing here
23:06:42 <psygnisfive> im lurking
23:06:45 <psygnisfive> what else would i be doing here
23:07:16 <oklopol> you could be playing the ball........
23:07:29 <psygnisfive> playing the ball?
23:07:35 <ehird> oklopol: * is connecting
23:07:39 <ehird> / is dividing
23:07:40 <Slereah_> Playing my balls
23:07:43 <oklopol> oh okay.
23:07:58 <ehird> oklopol: the interesting part ofc is making all that t
23:07:59 <ehird> tc
23:08:02 <ehird> with actual semantics
23:08:17 <oklopol> well yeah sure okay i now realize what you were doing up there
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23:09:02 <oklopol> ehird: so plz supply a semantics
23:09:08 <ehird> well halp
23:09:09 <ehird> :P
23:09:31 <oklopol> so umm. first of all how's that syntax do infinite graphs
23:09:56 <ehird> how does it not
23:10:00 <ehird> it has circular graphz
23:10:16 <ehird> infinite graphs are just circular graphs.
23:10:24 <psygnisfive> ehird: what? no.
23:10:29 <psygnisfive> circular graphs are finite
23:10:31 <ehird> well kinda
23:12:20 <oerjan> circular graphs are circular
23:12:23 <oerjan> obviously
23:12:26 <psygnisfive> indeed.
23:12:31 <psygnisfive> and necessarily not infinite
23:12:44 <psygnisfive> unless ofcourse you have a circle of infinite circumference
23:12:49 <psygnisfive> which is i suppose technically possible
23:13:03 <psygnisfive> just like you can have a line segment (not line) of infinite length
23:13:30 <oerjan> that's a straight line in those circumstances i've seen it make sense
23:13:44 <psygnisfive> ey?
23:13:47 <psygnisfive> which cases?
23:13:56 <psygnisfive> well, i shouldnt actually say line segment sorry
23:14:04 <psygnisfive> what i meant was a curve with two end points
23:14:17 <oerjan> a straight line is a circle that passes through infinity in the gaussian sphere
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23:18:35 <oerjan> sheesh
23:18:40 <oerjan> *riemann sphere
23:19:25 <ehird> feynman sphere
23:23:36 <Slereah_> Isle of Man sphere
23:24:26 <oerjan> sphere of influenza
23:24:52 <Slereah_> Smear of influenza
23:25:39 <oklopol> things getting outta hands?
23:26:05 <Slereah_> You're right
23:26:11 <Slereah_> Let's get back to the basics
23:26:14 <Slereah_> okokokokokokoko
23:26:34 <oklopol> okokokokokokoko
23:26:38 <oerjan> okoko oko
23:26:43 <oklopol> ooookokokoko
23:26:57 <oerjan> o? ko.
23:27:04 <oklopol> okoko okokoko oko okokoko okokokokooooooooooooooooooooooooo
23:27:07 <oklopol> o!
23:27:52 <oerjan> o oko okoko oko, okoko okokoko o okoko oko, oko o okoko.
23:28:27 <psygnisfive> oh
23:28:30 <psygnisfive> oklopol
23:28:35 <oklopol> oko okoko okokoko okoko oko oko okokoko okokokokoko o o o
23:28:44 <psygnisfive> i inadvertently induced a moment of okokoko in #isharia a few days ago
23:28:56 <oklopol> ehird: an infinite graph means the graph is infinite
23:29:01 <oklopol> what you're going for
23:29:04 <oklopol> is an infinite tree
23:29:10 <ehird> tru
23:29:15 <oklopol> a graph that has cycles is an infinite tree when you root it
23:29:48 <psygnisfive> a graph that has cycles is not a tree :P
23:30:07 <ehird> okay a cyclic infinite graph
23:30:26 <oklopol> psygnisfive: the rooting process is what matters
23:30:31 <psygnisfive> oklopol
23:30:32 <psygnisfive> its not
23:30:36 <psygnisfive> if it has cycles, its not a tree
23:30:42 <psygnisfive> because a tree is any connected acyclic graph
23:30:46 <psygnisfive> by definition. :P
23:30:51 <psygnisfive> so if it has cycles, its not a tree.
23:31:31 <oklopol> ...
23:32:15 <oklopol> i'm just explaining to ehird what he meant, i don't really give a shit if you don't understand what he meant
23:32:37 <psygnisfive> who knows what ehird meant. im simply saying that if it has cycles, its not a tree.
23:32:53 <oerjan> rooting means constructing the universal covering, i presume
23:32:55 <ehird> i think ill make irrelevant comments of random pedanticism all the time
23:32:56 <oklopol> blah. the point is
23:33:15 <oklopol> you root it arbitrarily, and do bredth-first to get an infinite tree.
23:33:34 <oklopol> i know the definition of a tree.
23:33:34 <psygnisfive> oerjan: who knows. the root of a tree is just a specially designated node in the tree.
23:36:16 <oklopol> psygnisfive: so say you have the graph abca, you root it at b, and start doing bfs, and you get the infinite tree (b (a (b ...) (c ...)) (c (b ...) (a ...)))
23:36:25 <oklopol> makes more sense if it's directed
23:36:32 <psygnisfive> what?
23:36:37 <psygnisfive> i dont know what that means
23:36:43 <oklopol> which part
23:36:52 <psygnisfive> the whole thing
23:37:03 <psygnisfive> i can sort of guess what you mean by the graph abca but other than that
23:37:04 <oklopol> abca is a cycle of three nodes
23:38:07 <oklopol> start doing bfs = start from the root node, make it the root of the infinite tree, make all nodes it's connected to in the graph the children of the root of the tree, the standard bfs
23:38:36 <oklopol> (b (a (b ...) (c ...)) (c (b ...) (a ...))) <<< a tree with b as the root, left child (a (b ...) (c ...)), right child (c (b ...) (a ...))
23:38:51 <oklopol> (parent left-child-branch right-child-branch)
23:39:03 <psygnisfive> i see
23:39:06 <oklopol> if you still don't get that, ask ehird, this is very trivial
23:39:08 <oklopol> okay
23:39:08 <oklopol> good.
23:40:13 <psygnisfive> so let me just clarify to make sure i know what you mean
23:40:26 <psygnisfive> if a->b, b->c, c->a is the graph
23:41:17 <psygnisfive> by rooting it at b, we construct a tree with b as the rood, and {a, c} as the children of b, because {a, c} are connected to b?
23:41:17 <oerjan> hm the vertices of the result correspond to paths from the chosen vertex in the original graph
23:42:14 <oerjan> (finite ones)
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23:54:17 <oklopol> oerjan: yes
23:54:24 <psygnisfive> oklopol :|
23:54:43 <oklopol> psygnisfive: well if it's directed then a more sensible way would probably to have the tree be just b -> c -> a -> b...
23:55:00 <psygnisfive> thats not a tree, as it has cycles