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I wish Jeff Atwood would just go die or something. 16:30:49 i didn't find that all that annoying 17:12:53 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:02:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:02:58 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:03:18 what a horrible threat 18:03:32 yes 18:03:38 well done oklopol for setting that 18:03:49 -!- mib_c2zegu has set topic: BLOOD AND FIRE. 18:04:35 * oerjan hits mib_c2zegu with the saucepan ====\___/ 18:05:00 -!- ais523 has set topic: THIS IS THE LINK TO THE LOGS >>> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ <<< IT'S FUCKING ANNOYING HAVING TO GOOGLE IT ALL THE TIME, IF SOMEONE REMOVES IT AGAIN, oklopol WILL put it back. 18:05:26 -!- mib_c2zegu has set topic: oklopol SHALL change this topic. 18:05:40 -!- mib_c2zegu has set topic: oklopol SHALL change this topic. everyone else SHALL NOT. 18:06:39 * Mony hits plop with the saucepan ====\___/ 18:06:41 -!- oerjan has set topic: oklopol SHALL change this topic. everyone else SHALL NOT. or ELSE.. 18:06:43 \o/ 18:06:55 -!- ais523 has set topic: THIS IS THE LINK TO THE LOGS >>> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ <<< IT'S FUCKING ANNOYING HAVING TO GOOGLE IT ALL THE TIME, IF SOMEONE [probably ehird] REMOVES IT AGAIN, SOMEONE [quite possibly oklopol] WILL put it back. 18:07:02 oerjan: or else they'll be me 18:08:35 :-D 18:08:44 btw j is pretty awesome, have i mentioned 18:08:55 oklopol: i'm pretty sure 18:08:55 possibly, I know ehird mentions it often enough 18:09:03 hmm. does he now? 18:09:28 well. he should, since it's pretty awesome. 18:10:09 also building about 1000 pages of tutorial labs into the interpreter kinda makes it hard to lazy out of learning the language 18:10:23 i mean i can just start the interp, and "hmm. what should i do? oh! maybe read another lab." 18:10:54 and you can play with the language as you go, test all the things you learn, because the lab runs in the repl 18:10:59 that's pretty awesome too. 18:11:13 * oklopol continues, more random praise in a moment. 18:11:44 hrmph. 18:14:54 j cures malaria and prevents babies from crying. it also can be usedas a laundry detergent. 18:22:26 (*:^:_1) 4 <<< *: is square, ^:_1 applies it minus i times; evaluates to 2 18:22:40 ^:_1 applies it minus i times 18:22:41 wat 18:22:42 *minus 1 times 18:23:27 (*:^:7) 2 would be *: *: *: *: *: *: *: 2 18:23:45 (*:^:_1) 4 is naturally the square root of 4 18:23:53 how can you apply negative times 18:24:01 through magic :D 18:24:03 grr... J should stop looking like Underload, it's confusing me 18:24:14 i'm assuming a verb can contain info about how to negate its effects 18:24:39 this is mainly used for conjunctions that first apply ^:1 of a verb, then ^:_1 18:25:22 for instance stuff like geometric mean can be done by having the stages of squaring and square rooting kinda wrapped over the part where you just do arithmetic mean 18:25:30 in quite a pretty way 18:26:04 because you don't have to provide squaring and square rooting separately, just the square will do as long as it knows how it's effects are negated 18:27:24 also i don't know how to specify the function for negating a function, or how to specify other things functions can have, like units (0 for + and 1 for *) 18:27:31 oklopol, talking about reversible programs or? 18:27:47 and i don't know whether you can add concepts like this yourself, i'm assuming you can't, but wouldn't be the first surprise 18:27:55 AnMaster: not really 18:27:59 ah 18:28:01 what then? 18:28:10 reversible functions, I think 18:28:28 oh? Sounds quite similar, if you have the result you can get the arguments 18:28:33 being able to annotate functions with certain info higher-order functions need. 18:29:09 not the same thing, reversible programming would require the language to be able to look inside functions, and do algebra 18:29:11 however lots of functions can't be reversed, just consider additions, you have to know at least two of: a + b = c, to get the third 18:29:14 i mean 18:29:21 making functions reversible 18:29:32 if the language is reversible, that's a whole another issue of course 18:29:53 AnMaster: yes. but you're missing the point 18:29:57 oklopol, there is an reversible programming language at the esolang wiki iirc 18:29:59 forgot the name 18:30:05 2D iirc 18:30:11 there are many, 18:30:16 has nothing to do with this. 18:30:16 ok 18:30:19 hm ok 18:30:33 this is about... well i just said 18:30:37 being able to annotate functions with certain info higher-order functions need. 18:30:49 oklopol, and that isn't very clear 18:31:03 yes it is. 18:31:13 i'm elaborating, be patient. things like what / (fold) should use as the unit when given an empty list as arg 18:31:20 + has 0, * has 1 18:31:33 so +/ 0$0 would be 0, and */ 0$0 would be 1 18:31:41 hm 18:31:45 (0$0 is just a hacky way to make an empty list) 18:31:56 oklopol, what language is this? 18:32:02 this is J 18:32:05 spec? 18:32:23 jsoftware.com 18:32:26 is the spec closed-source, or just the implementation? 18:32:34 i don't know and i don't care 18:32:37 clicky: http://www.jsoftware.com/ 18:32:49 now watch AnMaster rant about how much it sucks because its' closed 18:33:27 AnMaster: reversability here was just an example of something you can annotate a function with: have another function to reverse it with, somehow stored with the function 18:33:50 hm 18:33:57 is this an esolang or? 18:34:00 no. 18:34:05 you could have clicked the link... 18:34:07 it's meant to be serious, it acts a bit like an esolang now 18:34:16 mib_c2zegu, I was waiting for browser to load 18:34:17 ... 18:34:22 I see many similarities with Overload, for instance, although also differences 18:34:27 Slow computer. 18:34:28 J's a lot faster, for one thing, and has more syntax 18:34:47 mib_c2zegu, rather: fast computer rendering images with raytracing 18:35:01 J's syntax seems very clever, it solves some of the problems i was struggling with with oklotalk simply better than i did 18:35:06 so result is slow for everything else 18:35:09 and i don't admit that easily 18:35:38 I think J is a non-esolang that does well at solving many of the problems in implementing an oklotalk/Overload-style esolang (something multiple people here have obviously thought of) 18:35:56 hm 18:36:40 well one of J's greatest benefits is having an incredible amount of *algorithmic* modules 18:36:56 i mean, yeah, java and python have a million networking modules. who gives a shit. 18:38:04 or, at least if the small subset i've seen is, in fact, a small subset and not most of it :P 18:40:21 oklopol, that is probably because J and Java try to solve different problems 18:43:40 true. j solves all problems, while java doesn't. 18:43:44 :-) 18:45:09 i don't know much about j's module facilities. there's a lab about Object Oriented Programming though, and i'm sure j + oo is better than not j + oo. 18:49:51 (to be honest i'm pretty sure it's really ugly) 18:50:03 which VPS host do you guys use? 18:50:29 slicehost.com 18:50:40 it's el greato maximus 18:50:42 ah, good, I was just looking at those 18:51:00 _0x44 from ##nomic works there :-) 18:55:41 mib_c2zegu: is that a permanent nick? 18:56:17 oklopol: what? 18:56:36 no, ehird's just using random mibbit links atm 18:56:50 because for some reason he seems not to like using an IRC client but not a bouncer 18:56:57 lazy 18:57:02 my irc client is configured to my bouncer 18:57:22 reconfiguring a client is easier than using Mibbit, IMO 18:58:10 so. no. 18:58:16 cmd-n mibbit enter click click Freenode click esoteric type click 18:58:17 vs 18:58:34 mib_c2zegu: wanna know something mind-blowing? 18:58:39 look thru menus, connections, delete, add, freenode, irc.freenode.net, add #esoteric, click, connect 18:58:40 assuming i didn't tell you yet. 18:58:43 oklopol: sure 18:58:45 vs F2 alt-e irc.freenode.net enter enter 18:58:52 which is all it took to reconfigure my client 18:59:06 ais523: that does not join #esoteric. 18:59:07 although I went through the menus because I forgot the keyboard shortcuts, so two clicks not F2 18:59:12 mib_c2zegu: yes it does 18:59:14 also, I don't memorize the shortcuts for reconfiguring my irc client. 18:59:18 crazy I know. 18:59:22 my client was set up to join #esoteric by default beforehand 18:59:27 ais523: that's cheating. 18:59:29 i tried a version control system 18:59:30 mine wasn't. 18:59:31 via the bouncer 18:59:35 oklopol: holy fuck. which one 18:59:37 please say git 19:04:24 nope 19:04:30 i was just the user of the system 19:04:34 used tortoisesvn 19:04:51 oklopol: svn is kinda suck :{ 19:04:52 there are some development models svn is good for 19:05:00 I've only once been in a situation where svn was useful, though 19:05:03 ais523: and they all work just as well with a dvcs 19:05:05 and used it on more projects than one 19:05:12 mib_c2zegu: pretty much, yes 19:05:17 cvcs's are an inferior subset of dvcs's 19:05:37 although #interhack are using a dvcs, when they really need a cvcs I think 19:05:49 at least, you get in trouble for doing something a cvcs couldn't do 19:05:52 ais523: no; they just have a bad development model 19:05:53 hey. at least i liked it. meaning i might even try the other options. 19:05:54 :P 19:06:01 oklopol: you liked it? hoshit :D 19:06:12 oklopol is turning into an enterprise programmer :< 19:06:16 :DD 19:06:55 hey i'm moving from python to j now, clearly i'm struggling against it 19:07:02 lo 19:07:03 l 19:07:38 well actually i thought i'd start my language learning spree over, but this time actually learn the languages instead of just enough to forget it right away 19:08:01 and j and haskell are first 19:08:08 hee 19:08:31 * ais523 thinks there should be a lang like J, but more tinkerable 19:08:35 well haskell i know much better than i did j of course 19:09:39 j is tinkerable, no? 19:09:48 yes, but you can always get more tinkerable 19:10:15 can you elaborate on tinkerable 19:10:41 like, able to change things about the language 19:10:43 like syntax 19:11:39 mib_c2zegu: what was the thing i was trying to solve in j? 19:11:45 when we had the whole #j episode 19:11:57 oklopol: err, factorial with @ or something 19:12:35 (#j has both an autoinvite on part, and autoban on join-flood, it's a fun channel to part considering i have autojoin on invite :DD) 19:12:54 autoinvite on part? why? 19:13:06 ais523: because quakenet 19:13:14 could you elaborate? 19:13:18 well it's inhabited by gamers 19:13:39 i dunno. just seems like a very quakenety thing to do 19:13:45 hmm... does the autoinvite do anything but cause people to rejoin the channel? 19:13:57 it asks them to rejoin 19:13:59 obviously 19:14:03 with an invite 19:14:06 ais523: it may cause them to rejoin if their clients are like that 19:14:08 very quakenet, I agree 19:14:08 I mean, anything else? 19:14:11 ais523: no 19:14:19 the invite doesn't let them join voiced, for instance? 19:14:21 otherwise it does nothing, because why would someone rejoin if they just parted 19:14:40 ais523: it's just to get them to come back. 19:15:15 ais523: i doubt that, they should be voiced if Q-bot considers them worthy 19:17:34 mib_c2zegu: the reason for why i couldn't get it to work is @: is function composition, and the @ i used is actually not, it has a small difference, it uses the rank of the latter verb for both verbs 19:17:54 rank is kinda like whether arguments are of type [a] or [[a]]. 19:18:02 yes you said 19:18:03 or just a 19:18:09 well yes 19:18:12 but i didn't actually know :P 19:18:15 now i do 19:18:27 it was just a sophisticated guess back then 19:18:46 i guess that's a bit irrelevant from your perspective. 19:35:37 -!- oerjan has quit ("Trying a reboot"). 19:39:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:13:01 so, tonight, programming or algorithms? 20:13:29 programming 20:13:34 documentation 20:13:50 * oerjan cackles evilly 20:14:36 oerjan: not much difference :< 20:14:50 programming is documentating YOUR MOTHER 20:15:32 RIR 20:17:44 RIR? 20:19:51 RIRIRIR 20:27:30 -!- Judofyr has joined. 20:27:34 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:28:04 -!- Judofyr has joined. 20:48:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:57:54 o 20:58:27 oko 21:02:30 oko 21:02:34 o 21:02:37 o 21:02:41 oko 21:02:43 okoko 21:02:50 okokoko 21:02:52 oko 21:03:26 okokokokoko 21:03:31 o 21:03:38 okoko 21:03:42 oko 21:03:44 o 21:04:26 okookokk 21:04:41 kookook 21:05:07 ok?ok!Ok. 21:05:21 Ook? Ook! 21:05:29 let's play Nim with okos 21:05:49 * Sgeo should probably look up Ni, 21:05:51 Nim 21:05:57 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:05:57 it's a good game, and very simple 21:06:04 basically, you start with a certain number of piles of objects 21:06:07 okos in this case 21:06:15 players take turns to remove objects from a pile 21:06:24 as in, you can remove any number of objects but they all have to be in the same pile 21:06:30 whoever takes the last object loses 21:06:54 Isn't Nim solved or something? 21:06:58 yes 21:07:18 yes, it is, that's why I'll beat you at it 21:07:27 unless you start in a winning position and either have also solved it, or are lucky 21:07:52 you have to be exponentially lucky 21:08:12 yes 21:08:25 You'd be the one choosing who goes first? 21:08:32 * Sgeo is looking at it on Wikipedia 21:08:38 no 21:08:46 err. 21:08:54 yeah that's not enough 21:08:55 if I choose who goes first and there are two players, I'll win unless I screw up really badly 21:09:03 even if someone else chose the board before that 21:09:09 i.e. the starting position 21:09:26 now, is it pspace-complete if you have two stacks? 21:09:37 huh? 21:10:07 i would imagine it is logspace 21:10:09 oerjan: well in pspace, but not known to be in np, isn't that the usual game classification 21:10:20 hmm 21:10:20 far below pspace 21:10:30 the strategy for winning it is O(log n), where n's the largest stack you have remaining 21:10:42 hmm 21:11:27 by stack you mean pile? 21:11:29 hmm. yeah okay it doesn't really make the game more interesting 21:11:43 oerjan: umm. well yes 21:11:44 oerjan: yes 21:11:50 oh, ais523 21:11:57 oh, me too 21:12:23 hmm. 21:12:30 how about some kinda graph... 21:12:54 see hackenbush, i think 21:13:15 no that's just either the original or multiple stacks if you can cut it into a forest 21:13:21 hackenbush? k 21:14:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackenbush 21:15:19 and sprouts 21:15:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprouts_(game) 21:15:59 sprouts with oko wouldn't really work 21:16:51 * oerjan once played sprouts with conway in person 21:17:14 who won? 21:17:17 and wow 21:17:17 of course i lost, since i hadn't seen the game before 21:18:10 * oerjan hasn't really tried learning it since either 21:18:50 brussels sprouts always has the same winner no matter who plays where 21:18:59 :D 21:20:12 ahh, hackenbrush is essentially my graph idea, except when split into components, some components are removed from the game 21:20:29 == nim -> game 21:20:45 oerjan: how come you've seen a celebrity? 21:21:21 he was giving a lecture in seattle when i was there during my ph.d. 21:22:43 and afterwards there were some discussions in the institute's lunch room 21:23:11 (the lecture was on surreal numbers iirc) 21:23:58 you have an awesome life 21:25:10 oklopol: was that sentence an attempt at alphanumeric-only oko? 21:30:17 ...yes of course 21:31:07 so 21:31:09 what if 21:31:11 o 21:31:15 o's were 21:31:16 umm 21:31:21 on the ground 21:31:59 and a word, "xozy", for instance, meant the graph consisting of the characters of english, contained the path xozy 21:32:08 linking x, o, z and y 21:32:26 so you could eodermdrome hackenbrush 21:32:40 now if you mix scrabble into that... 21:32:48 :P 21:32:50 oh wait 21:33:00 nim is still an incomplete game if everyone can remove any line? 21:33:04 hmm. 21:33:21 what do you mean incomplete? 21:33:35 an incomplete game, trivial 21:33:52 dunno. 21:33:55 hmm 21:33:59 see the sprague-grundy theorem linked from the hackenbush article 21:34:29 ah 21:34:31 ! 21:34:50 not that that implies complete triviality. sprouts hasn't been completely solved despite being theoretically under that theorem 21:35:04 alright 21:35:40 oooooooooo 21:35:52 now 21:35:59 *boom* 21:36:20 the red-blue-(green) hackenbush described is sort of to get conway's general games rather than just nimbers 21:36:25 how about someone start the game, the obvious scrabble rule is you can only use english words when doing transformations 21:36:55 (or so i assume, i haven't actually read that book) 21:53:50 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 21:54:10 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:54:13 hi Judofyr_ 21:54:41 hi :-) 21:54:43 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 21:54:53 wazzzzzzup? 21:55:06 the sky 21:55:18 oh 21:55:30 duh. 21:55:53 what book should I buy from Amazon? 21:55:57 say one 21:55:59 a good one 21:56:06 one\na good one 21:56:08 > 21:56:14 err how abou 21:56:15 t 21:56:20 Enterprise Esoteric Programming: From Brainfuck to Underload 21:56:24 by Fake T. Name 21:56:37 I would love that book! 21:56:45 yes! 21:56:48 * mib_c2zegu = ehird 21:56:52 so would I 21:57:00 I should write a book about esolangs 21:57:00 pity it doesn't exist 21:57:02 it'd be awesome. 21:57:12 actually, I think it might be interesting to convert Esolang the wiki into book form 21:57:25 mib_c2zegu: why the heck are you mib_c2zegu and not ehird? 21:57:31 together with commentary 21:57:36 Judofyr: mibbit 21:57:37 and explanations 21:57:47 Judofyr: because he's too lazy to change the default nick, even with /nick 21:58:03 ais523: better idea: cite it with little footnotes in the book, except have it reference it as saying stuff entirely different from what it does 21:58:04 ah 21:58:08 understandable 21:58:26 mib_c2zegu: why? 21:58:30 that would mean a lot more writing 21:58:34 ais523: because that's esoteric 21:58:41 also, writing a book about esolangs sounds fun 21:58:50 (so does playing with its typography for 7 years) 21:59:14 brb 21:59:21 the toilet needs me 21:59:59 uh, thanks. 22:02:18 back! 22:02:26 but seriously, a good book? 22:02:34 sicp :-P 22:02:39 right now I got SICP and The Little Schemer in my cart :P 22:02:51 and the From NAND to Tetris-book 22:02:55 enterprise javabean development with struts 22:02:57 well everyone needs rwh 22:03:05 oh yeah, throw in rwh 22:03:10 rwh? 22:03:14 rwh. 22:03:14 real world haskell 22:03:18 http://www.realworldhaskell.org/ 22:03:19 ah 22:03:29 -!- mib_c2zegu has set topic: functional programming weenies.. 22:03:57 hm... haskell? 22:03:58 really? 22:04:02 what about it? 22:04:05 -!- oklopol has set topic: functional programming weenies. also THIS IS THE LINK TO THE LOGS >>> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ <<< IT'S FUCKING ANNOYING HAVING TO GOOGLE IT ALL THE TIME, IF SOMEONE REMOVES IT AGAIN, I WILL put it back. 22:04:06 haskell is cool. 22:04:52 I like Haskell 22:05:07 btw, anyone know how to write a recursive function with base case inside the GHCi REPL? 22:05:12 it's easy enough in an actual program 22:05:17 func 0 = ... 22:05:20 func x = ... 22:05:23 ais523: ; 22:05:23 but that doesn't work inside the REPL 22:05:25