2008-12-01: 00:00:51 well, now it at least works on the empty screen. 00:00:55 now let's try a glider.... 00:01:19 well there's a glider, but it takes ages to reach it, not the fastest impl there it :) 00:01:36 it's quite visually pleasing imo 00:01:42 happy december 00:01:53 oklopol: use http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck.php it has fat animation 00:01:53 set ms = 0 00:01:54 old news 00:01:56 and origin top left 00:02:23 oklopol: failing that ill try it in the java interp 00:05:40 flumrgh, it didn't wurk :) 00:06:01 oklopol: :{ y not 00:06:18 because i suck 00:06:25 tru 00:12:12 HUGE performance improvement: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-canvas.php 00:12:32 Asztal: thanks :) 00:13:44 woo 00:13:52 oh jesus lord 00:13:55 that is INSANELY FAST 00:13:58 for ms=0 00:14:01 pgimeno: you are a god 00:14:29 pgimeno: my god, blink and its finished execution 00:14:29 well, the merit is yours and Asztal's :) 00:14:36 but seriously 00:14:37 that is insane 00:14:50 it does 200 steps per animation frame 00:15:01 oh 00:15:01 pgimeno: well 00:15:06 the problem with that is that you miss out on the juicy bits 00:15:10 maybe make that configuratble? 00:15:13 should just be a few lines 00:15:23 I was thinking of that, but wanted to show you :) 00:15:30 :) 00:16:04 Langton's ant now takes just a few seconds to escape at 128x128 00:16:49 pgimeno: also, you should default to black = background 00:16:49 :P 00:16:52 like everyone else 00:17:49 oklopol: 00:17:52 try your gol on this!! 00:17:53 really fast 00:18:11 if it works now 00:18:38 oklopol: set dimensions = 1000,1000, origin=topleft, animation step=0, put it in and animate 00:18:41 = best interp yet 00:18:54 ehird: the web is white! :P 00:19:08 pgimeno: so is the flash interp, but the GRID is black background 00:19:08 :P 00:19:12 and everyone says white/black 00:19:14 okay i think it works now 00:19:15 so it's just confusing 00:19:35 but i can't test a glider in the exe 00:20:02 pgimeno: haha, try whee! 00:20:05 its still slow 00:20:10 (http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=3710.msg110154#msg110154) 00:21:19 pgimeno: the main problem with your 200-per is that t he display is jerky 00:21:19 and 00:21:27 you can't see the head if it's a bouncing-ball type thing 00:21:33 so i think that configurable that would be good 00:24:33 pgimeno: heh, your interp is quite unusable now: you can't see programs running 00:24:35 since it's so fast 00:24:41 needs some of that configuring ;) 00:24:44 JJusutst a anonotthheerr brbraiainnffuucckk hahcackkeerr 00:24:50 weave does brainfork 00:24:50 lol 00:26:52 okay, reload 00:27:24 okay it may work now. 00:27:30 yay 00:27:33 i have no idea because it shows two generations :) 00:27:45 i made a glider, and it's not dying, not sure if it's working though. 00:27:52 pgimeno: does it totally redraw each time? 00:27:57 if so that's silly just redraw what needs redrawing 00:28:01 oklopol: using pgimeno's? 00:28:08 yeah the php 00:28:34 ehird: well, that's on the browser, it draws on every pixel change 00:28:43 oklopol: set ms = 0, iterations = 500 00:28:45 and animate 00:28:48 should go really fast 00:29:42 oklopol: this one: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-canvas.php 00:29:51 the -canvas one 00:29:57 *[[en*w]*s[nw*s]*e[ws*e]*n[se*n]*w] <- someone on the forums posted this. BOXWORLD! 00:32:42 hmm... it might be working, but it's definitely not pretty. 00:32:51 oklopol: :{ 00:32:54 pastie.org the code 00:32:55 should've done it like oerjan suggested 00:33:29 i can http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p244563523.txt the code, don't know about pastieing 00:33:31 *pastying 00:34:15 the problem is showing two iterations at once, it simply doesn't look good. 00:34:24 and makes it quite hard to tell whether that's even working. 00:34:37 oklopol: also it's dog slow 00:34:38 :D 00:34:52 yes, that's true 00:35:42 reaaaaaaaaaally slow 00:35:42 oklopol: 00:35:47 you should make it migrate an entire region at a time 00:35:48 XD 00:36:00 whaddya mean 00:36:18 like 00:36:24 a glider goes straight to the next glider step 00:36:28 then it goes on to the rest of the grid 00:39:06 okay there's a bug. 00:39:08 err 00:39:21 i have no idea what you mean, unless you mean what you said, which you cannot have meant 00:39:32 oklopol: as in 00:39:34 if there's a glider there 00:39:37 make the glider go on to the next glider iteration 00:39:40 anyway if you change the first four lines to 00:39:41 then calculate all the rest of the grid 00:39:41 *[ss*]* 00:39:41 eeeeeeeeeeessssssssss 00:39:41 *ee*ee*wwww 00:39:41 wwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnn 00:39:51 a row of three 00:39:59 you can clearly see it do one correct iteration 00:40:04 then fail on the next iteration 00:40:04 yeah but 00:40:06 it takes 5 years. 00:40:06 :D 00:40:29 yeah that canvas thing is much too slow for this 00:40:50 oklopol: hard to get much faster 00:40:53 thats the fastest interp so far 00:40:54 but oklopol 00:40:58 put up the iterations per animation 00:40:59 to like 2000 00:41:01 and delay=0 00:41:27 does that do some kind of optimization? 00:43:44 oklopol: it makes it do 2000 iterations per animation 00:43:48 and not wait per animation 00:43:56 i mean 00:44:00 does that interpreter do 00:44:31 oklopol: wow, even if it does not seem to be working properly I'm impressed (and no, the interpreter doesn't optimize, except it has a jumps table) 00:45:27 i'm pretty sure it works now, had just a minor bug 00:45:46 clicky? 00:45:54 (forgot i need to forget the old values at some point, and an error naturally occurs due to this only on the second iteration) 00:46:03 Is it safe to say that the sort of person in this channel is the sort who has no need to cheat on exams/ 00:46:17 Sgeo: why? 00:46:30 I had to cheat on history exams :P 00:46:45 On my economics exam, the professor left the room for a few minutes, and I hear everyone asking things like "For 5, what did you get?", things like that 00:47:11 heh 00:47:55 i was recently the only one to score a 5/5 in one exam, i think it'd be a bit counterproductive to ask people what they answer :P 00:48:08 oklopol, lol, same here 00:48:25 There were two questions I was clueless about 00:48:31 But I would NEVER consider cheating 00:48:43 we usually have 4 questions, if you don't know the answer to 2, you fail. 00:48:56 50 question exam 00:49:03 :D 00:49:04 okily 00:49:39 i have nothing against cheating. 00:49:42 oklopol: can I see the fixed version? 00:49:44 cheating is pretty cool. 00:49:54 pgimeno: yes, not that i'm sure it still works ;) 00:50:34 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p533314231.txt 00:50:38 that seems to work 00:50:45 it's a row of 3 blobs 00:50:59 goes vertical - horizontal - vertical ... 00:51:36 (the last cycle's value is in the bottom-left of a 2x2 square, current is in top-right.) 00:51:53 would probably be clearer if they were like next to each other or if the squares were bigger or something 00:52:08 but, it'd take me quite a while to do even a trivial change, because that's all manually done. 00:52:15 (thought it'd be a lot shorter) 00:52:53 great! 00:52:54 if you want to know what the flicker is all about, the top-left thingie is the current cell being modified 00:53:07 the one on bottom-right is where the counrer ends 00:53:09 *counter 00:53:23 the four flickering lights are the negations of the counter's cells 00:53:36 (makes the logic to check what happens to current cell clearer) 00:54:24 what about the glider? 00:55:01 that gets very confusing, i didn't check whether it works :D 00:55:10 but i can try, after this other test i'm doing now 00:56:48 -!- adimit has left (?). 00:57:03 okay 00:57:05 glider works 00:57:28 bye adimit 00:57:38 whoa 00:58:40 whoa at gol? 00:59:12 yeah 00:59:42 if you cleared the cells done it would be great too 00:59:57 what do you mean 01:00:09 err, the last values? 01:00:12 yeah hmm err indeed 01:00:20 i could do that, i just need the last row 01:00:31 lol i never even thought of that:D 01:00:40 *that :D 01:00:51 heh 01:01:05 let's see... this should be trivial 01:02:09 done 01:02:12 so 01:02:16 i code for 4 hours 01:02:41 and you fix everything in a second 01:03:41 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p422562455.txt <<< because of the change, there's now a piece of code there that doesn't do anything. 01:03:46 just in case someone wants a challenge 01:03:49 you who? 01:03:51 wait 01:04:03 damn, it's trivial to find it, i've commented that code. 01:04:06 pgimeno: you 01:04:23 anyway 01:04:26 look, it's pretty now. 01:04:57 hmm... 01:04:59 > Weave and brainfork conventions can be used together. That is, multiple initial threads can be started using semicolons, and embedded Y's can cause further forking. 01:05:05 wonder what happens when it hits the border... 01:05:09 pew-pew-pew 01:05:22 http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:JayCampbell/weave.rb 01:05:30 for the record, the second version of langton's ant took me about 3 hours 01:06:39 hmm. wonder how long it took me to do 110 01:07:18 yay, so cool now :) 01:07:25 btw that crashes completely when the glider hits the border :P 01:07:37 what's langton's and again 01:07:49 the ant is somewhere, and it turns right or left depending on current cell 01:07:55 and flips it if something. 01:08:05 *langton's ant 01:08:47 there's a current direction, turn left and if 0, turn right if 1, flip and advance 01:08:55 s/and// 01:09:46 always flip? 01:09:50 yes 01:09:56 that's pretty neat 01:10:15 now i almost feel like making that in pf... :D 01:10:19 the second version fills the whole 2x2 square 01:10:23 how long was yours again? ;) 01:10:30 (the code) 01:10:31 which is what makes it notable 01:10:43 hmm, what do you mean? 01:10:44 err, remarkable 01:11:14 try and see: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-langton-nonhollow.pfk 01:11:21 grr 01:11:32 try and see: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-langton-nothollow.pfk 01:12:07 so 01:12:12 err 01:12:15 the current cell 01:12:24 stores the direction, it's not completely black, right 01:12:30 ohh 01:12:35 wait.. 01:12:41 yeah i think you need that. 01:12:51 i'll step-by-step, don't answer! 01:13:16 wait 01:13:20 now i closed the interp :D 01:13:20 ... 01:14:09 so yeah okay, that's pretty good, although i'm pretty sure you could get that compressed quite a lot 01:14:25 maybe, I didn't figure how 01:14:42 * pgimeno is seeing the r demon in life 01:15:08 can you tell me what that code does? i don't feel like reading 01:15:24 like, the gist of how you do it 01:16:11 http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-langton-nothollow-commented.pfk 01:17:06 wherever it says "we came from x" it should say "our last move was x" 01:18:11 i have to go sleep now, i'll read that tomorrow 01:18:11 cya 01:18:14 -> 01:19:20 k, nite 01:50:11 paintfuck is not "borderline-esoteric" 01:53:07 mmm... define that? 01:54:27 never mind, gtg 01:55:01 warrie has there ever been an Easy interpreter? 01:58:24 there is another Easy 01:59:35 http://p-nand-q.com/humor/programming_languages/gplz/gplz_easy.html 02:00:07 and bye :) 02:00:30 moo 04:02:52 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 04:58:44 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 05:13:22 You are standing inside your ramshackle wooden hut. 05:13:35 weave plays Lost Kingdom 05:13:55 i'm going to ask jon ripley to make it multiplayer 05:13:57 lol 05:29:34 ehird: i checked your copier, it's sweet :) 05:30:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:06:13 $ ./weave.rb 99.bf 99.bf 99.bf 06:06:13 999999 bbbooottttttllleeesss ooofff bbbeeeeeerrr ooonnn ttthhheee wwwaaallllll,,, 06:06:13 999999 bbbooottttttllleeesss ooofff bbbeeeeeerrr,,, 06:06:13 $ ./weave.rb sange-archive/hello* 06:06:13 HHHELLOWelloheallo t HelloW WORWoLrlDd! 06:06:14 orld!! 06:06:16 worldis! 06:06:18 your name? 06:22:34 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 06:27:39 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 06:31:56 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 06:47:34 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 07:38:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:39:10 -!- oerjan has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Y RLY. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:05:54 so now i'm gluing pbrain into weave too 08:07:07 it will soon be .. an irc bot with persistent threaded cross-communicating subroutine-calling brainfucks 08:07:18 because, you know, that's exactly what the world needs 08:12:29 the world is _so_ fucked 08:20:05 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 08:47:38 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 09:02:19 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("I'm a thaasophobic."). 11:27:09 Heh. I tried to calculate the number of ways I could generate all the permutations of a given cycle by just shifting subsequences one step at the time. For zero-, one- and two-length cycles I got the answer 1. For a three-length cycle I got 40 within a second. But trying to calculate it for a four-length cycle, it almost froze up the whole computer :S 11:27:10 My guess is that the number is around 2*n!!/(n!^2) :) 11:38:28 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 12:18:14 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:32:09 -!- Corun has joined. 12:38:22 decipher: thanks 12:38:24 but it only handles one-rows 12:50:12 but i am sure you can generalize 12:50:32 also, on my obfuscated interpreter the copying was quite fast 13:12:53 decipher: well, it's hard to generalize to arbitrary depth because if you just sweep through it, you eat up the walls 13:28:22 decipher: if you have any ideas, though? 13:41:14 what copyer 13:42:12 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 13:42:48 oklopol: paintfuck 13:42:55 it copies a line leftwards constantly 13:43:04 i.e. you can put any one line and it scrolls it 13:43:04 sloooooowly 13:43:09 i want to generalize it to any depth 13:43:11 somehow 13:43:21 mm'kay, isn't that like 10 characters of code? 13:43:28 no 13:43:33 you have to detect the ceiling/floor 13:43:35 to go right one 13:43:39 otherwise you eat the walls up 13:43:43 and never go on to the next column 13:43:54 the one-line copier is trivial ofc 13:45:40 ehird: your routine was more like a move than copy :) 13:46:07 although i am not sure if it might be possible to dynamically calculate the offset and move the head accordingly at all 13:46:18 as in, i am not sure if a true copy algorithm can be possible 13:46:27 decipher: oh, true 13:46:34 well it was a scroll 13:46:34 really 13:46:38 but 13:46:43 i dont' think you can do a generic scroll 13:46:48 its impossible to tell walls from blocks 13:46:49 UNLESS 13:46:54 you make the wall a special pattern 13:47:00 that your program detects 13:47:07 then you can't copy that pattern, but if it's weird enough it won't happen 13:47:12 true, but that's not "general" then :) 13:47:19 as general as matters :P 13:47:24 haha 13:59:44 my binary counter (may assume infinite grid): sse*ww*[e*[*nn[*s*e*wn]se[*wn*se]s*]*w*[*s[*]nw*]*en[*e]*s[*e*w]*[*e*]s*n*[*w*]s[*]*] 13:59:45 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 14:00:05 pgimeno: niiiiiiiice 14:00:09 hmm 14:00:13 someone make a decimal conuter 14:00:14 counter 14:00:19 -!- lostgeek has joined. 14:00:20 that OCRs the digits it outputs to add :) 14:00:30 hi 14:00:36 hi 14:00:51 hi lostgeek 14:11:34 lostgeek: context for what i was saying - 14:11:45 a decimal counter would be cool, i.e. it draws the digits and OCRs them to increment :) 14:15:58 my bday today 14:15:59 :) 14:18:01 grats AnMaster :) 14:18:08 thanks 14:18:12 :) 14:18:25 AnMaster said something? 14:18:27 (He's on /ignore.) 14:18:36 lostgeek, hm I can't remember seeing you here before? 14:18:40 at least not under that nick 14:19:04 AnMaster: I joined yesterday ;) 14:19:16 ah 14:19:24 (Context for a person who I cannot see: He's a paintfuck person.) 14:22:10 ehird: would be cool, but I think a bit hard to realize 14:22:21 lostgeek: i don't think -that- hard 14:22:35 dunno... 14:22:45 i mean, write code to output a certain digit for 0-9, then one to look at its pixels (just make them monospaced) to detect it into the head 14:22:49 then just do regular adding stuff 14:22:53 not easy, but not really hard 14:26:51 last, shorter, faster version of binary cnt: sse*ww*[e*[*nn[*s*e*wn]se[*wn*se]s*]s[*]*nw*[*s[*]nw*]*en[*e]*ss[*e*w]n*[*w*]s*] 14:30:55 pgimeno, language? 14:31:20 AnMaster: PaintFuck 14:31:26 ah 14:33:14 hm 14:35:49 pgimeno: that's not shorter... 14:39:08 binary cunt? 14:39:17 i know oklopol would say that. 14:39:25 we could just replace him with a bot and never notice. 14:39:25 probably. 14:39:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:39:30 apart from the coding skills part. 14:40:26 heh 14:41:20 to inc a binary counter, when you're on a constant 1-bit to the right of it, w[*]*w*[*e*]*, you go left, then null all ones, make the zero into a one, then go right, skip all the zeroes to land on the constant bit to the right of the counter 14:41:30 to do this constantly, add a while to that 14:41:37 what are you guys doing then? 14:42:41 wait that doesn't work 14:42:44 LOL 14:42:52 hi ais523 14:44:49 hi ehird 14:45:05 hello ais523 14:45:09 my bday today :) 14:46:44 AnMaster: I say the appropriate response, but such that ehird doesn't have a clue what I mean due to lack of context 14:47:12 I do actions by saying them to IRC. 14:48:26 [w[*w]*e*[*e*]*] <<< binary coutner 14:48:28 *counter 14:48:32 sorry, i just woke up 14:49:07 also the police calls, i couln't really tell them what the pizza attackers looked like, so they're gonna go photograph the whole staff and show me the pics :D 14:49:16 oklopol: pizza attackers? 14:49:25 yeah 14:49:40 about a week ago, i ordered pizza, and got beat up by the delivery guys 14:49:53 what sort of delivery guy does that? 14:50:02 oklopol: hahaha 14:50:12 maybe you called up the Punch 'n Pizza place instead 14:50:25 ais523: i would tell you what i think the answer is, but that would be racist. 14:50:26 [w[*w]*e*[*e*]*] <-- oklopol how can this work it will never run 14:50:38 ehird: you have to be on a constant 1 bit 14:50:42 oklopol: they were blobs of mauve goo? 14:50:50 ehird: they were FINNISH 14:51:03 !!!!!!!!!!!! 14:51:09 goddamn finns 14:51:17 scum the lot of them 14:51:38 oklopol: your binary counter is pretty awesome 14:51:46 w*[w[*w]*e*[*e*]*] 14:51:50 were you doing that same thing? 14:51:50 the full experience 14:51:58 ? 14:52:08 hmm... it seems the Door was broken again last Sunday, good thing I didn't try it 14:52:16 ehird: i mean 14:52:28 that long code there, about a binary cunt, was it that same thing 14:52:41 well no 14:52:45 it kept the previous results 14:52:46 and um 14:52:49 didn't look like yours 14:52:54 oklopol: you should make yours actually output in binary 14:52:57 instead of a soldi line 14:53:40 not sure what you mean 14:53:54 maybe i could run yours.......... 14:54:24 so okay, like that 14:54:27 i can do that.... 14:54:47 um oklopol 14:54:50 i didnt write one 14:54:50 :| 14:55:06 ehird: i mean the set {ehird, pgimeno} 14:55:09 OBVIOUSLY 14:55:11 :P 14:56:02 anyway i don't think i'll actually do it, why the fuck would i 14:57:24 oklopol: 14:57:24 *w*[[*w*]*e*e*[*e*]*w*] 14:57:30 i just made your counter simpler 14:57:30 :P 14:57:41 you made it longer 14:57:50 yes but it runs simpler 14:57:52 ohh 14:57:54 it doesn't use binary 14:57:54 a all 14:57:55 and it's not a binary counter 14:57:56 at all :P 14:58:03 oklopol: a binary counter would OUTPUT IN BINARY 14:58:06 *[w*] 14:58:10 that's faster 14:58:17 exactly 14:58:22 oklopol: so make it output in binary! :P 14:58:27 ehird: it outputs in binary, just doesn't store the values 14:58:29 0 = space, 1 = dot naturally 14:58:55 that's a binary counter, pgimeno's is one that outputs binary numbers 14:59:10 which isn't really useful, unlike a counter 14:59:28 ais523: we're talking about paintfuck 14:59:40 which is the first interesting bf dialect in ages 14:59:40 http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=3710.0 14:59:47 the thing is, the memory is actually the screen 14:59:54 so your program has to think in its output drawing format 15:00:03 langton's ant, game of life, rule 110, etc have been done 15:00:20 i'm not saying paintfuck isn't interesting, i'm just saying it's not a new idea 15:00:31 oklopol: yeah ok w/e :P 15:00:35 but ais523 hasn't seen it 15:00:35 so 15:00:42 ais523: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-canvas.php javascript interp, it's fast 15:00:50 but what is new is someone having linked an implementation so i can play with it :P 15:01:27 * ehird makes his counter go forever 15:02:52 argh 15:02:57 i'm still here 15:03:00 doing absolutely nothing 15:04:31 *w*[[[*w*]*e*e*[*e*]*w*]*s*e*w] 15:04:34 infinite count 15:05:03 aka slowest screen fillder ever 15:05:06 *filler 15:05:56 not really, that's O(n^2) filling tiem 15:06:02 wait... 15:06:19 n*sqrt(n) is more like it 15:06:38 oklopol: after it fills the screen it then mangles the topleft and topright pixels 15:06:40 point is doing it in binary is O(2^n) 15:06:43 so it's the slowest screen filler ever 15:06:48 as it takes more than infinite time to fill the screen 15:06:51 what do you mean? 15:07:00 oklopol: it makes the topleft and topright pixels blac 15:07:01 k 15:07:04 at the end 15:07:07 infinity = -1, as we all know 15:07:15 so it's as fast as you can get 15:10:25 err..... what the fuck, still here...... 15:10:30 i'm such a slacker 15:10:34 soon i will go 15:10:39 maybe... now 15:10:41 -> 15:39:02 http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/langtonsant.php - Langton's ant (unrelated to PFK) 15:39:20 not programmable though 15:39:29 AnMaster: PaintFuck 15:39:34 arrrrrrrrgh 15:39:43 gee how many times have we said "AnMaster: PaintFuck" today 15:39:53 well this time it was my fault 15:40:12 i thought i was in the other terminal window and pressed up and enter 15:45:48 hm? 15:45:59 lostgeek, did you want it? 15:46:05 err 15:46:08 did you want something 15:46:09 I meant 15:46:12 nope 15:46:15 ok 15:58:21 back 15:58:24 huh 15:58:31 forgot to say afk heh 15:58:42 ais523, and thanks btw 15:58:45 didn't see it abvoie 15:58:46 above* 16:13:33 AnMaster, hm... *poke* 16:13:40 anything interesting? 16:13:44 or busy with "rl2 16:13:45 err 16:13:47 or busy with "rl"* 16:20:45 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:20:53 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:20:54 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:26:20 mh. I got a problem with my code window... 16:26:46 lets say I have a loop like *[w*] or something 16:26:51 AnMaster: busy with things including RL 16:27:03 and some non-RL but non-eso programming 16:27:05 and my pointer is on the second * 16:27:17 and trying to recover an email that Outlook Web Access deleted yesterday 16:27:23 I spent over an hour writing it 16:27:24 now I call nextStep() and move to ']' 16:27:31 then accidentally hit back on my mouse, and couldn't get back to it 16:27:33 so I'm rewriting it 16:27:43 where I jump back to '[' 16:28:04 how I was solving it was to jump back to the left of '[' 16:28:49 but in that case my pointer is on the first * which is confusing, since I don't execute it 16:29:01 ais523, ah 16:29:12 any ideas how to solve that? 16:29:18 ais523, ouch 16:30:06 lostgeek, you move before you execute or execute before you move? 16:30:18 move before I execute 16:30:34 which solves other problems I would have when executing before moving 16:30:52 lostgeek, now I don't 1) know how similar it is to plain bf, 2) what language you are writing it in 16:30:59 but if it was C and plain bf 16:31:02 http://www.iq0.com/notes/deep.nesting.html 16:31:11 (AnMaster will hate that article) 16:31:11 I would just connect the ] node's next pointer to the matching [ 16:31:14 while I'm parsing 16:31:27 the up pointer to the instruction after 16:31:51 and the ['s down pointer to the first instruction in the loop 16:31:54 or something like that 16:32:27 lostgeek, and move before execute is sane 16:32:43 I'm working with strings (on java) 16:32:51 lostgeek: prepaer 16:32:53 *preparse 16:32:55 the code before execution 16:33:07 no idea about java 16:33:21 but I would represent the source of plain bf as a 2D linked list 16:33:37 actually to save some space I wouldn't have separate up and down pointers in the structs 16:33:43 I would have a single "aux" pointer 16:33:54 since I wouldn't need up and down in the same struct 16:34:03 need both* 16:34:39 mh ok. I added a TODO :) 16:34:42 thanke 16:34:46 thanks 16:34:52 lostgeek, but this may be totally crazy to do in java 16:34:54 I got no idea 16:35:13 AnMaster: I think there are LinkedLists in Java. But working with strings was easier 16:35:29 lostgeek: 16:35:48 public class BFNode { public char type; public BFNode stuff; public BFNode next; } 16:36:18 lostgeek: {type='[', stuff={type='w', stuff=null, next=null}, next={type='*', stuff=null, next=null}} 16:36:23 lostgeek: then just recurse to loop 16:36:27 or keep a manual stack 16:37:29 yeah. may be a good way to solve it. 16:37:31 lostgeek, well I did it like this: mmap() source bf file, write a recursive parser to build the tree, pass the tree to the optimizer (replaces ++- with +, reorganize >-<+>-< into >--<+ and such as well as replace ---- with -4) 16:37:37 then I pass it to the emitter 16:37:40 its the only way to solve it sanely 16:37:42 that emitted it as C code 16:37:42 :P 16:37:48 of course, insane is good too 16:37:50 then I used system() to call the compiler 16:37:59 AnMaster: do you replace >>>> with >4? 16:37:59 since it was a compiler, not an interpreter 16:38:05 gcc-bf really, really needs that optimisation 16:38:08 ais523, yes of course 16:38:16 in fact, I'm considering just getting it to output run-length-encoded BF 16:38:23 ais523, however it was the one with huge duff's device due to being Def-BF 16:38:25 easy enough to postprocess that into normal BF 16:38:25 but since that is dead 16:38:30 code reuse should be good 16:38:39 I have considered several other optimizing techniques 16:38:54 such as in a balanced loop try to pre-compute certain parts 16:38:56 like 16:39:07 [>++>+<<-] 16:39:10 then you could do 16:39:41 while (*ptr != 0) { *(ptr+1)+=2; *(ptr+2)++; } 16:39:42 basically 16:39:47 well not exactly 16:39:50 but something like that 16:39:54 instead of moving ptr 16:40:08 oh and decrement too 16:40:13 don't forget that heh 16:40:35 ais523, see what I mean? 16:40:51 and if number of iterations can be pre-computed... 16:40:56 well you could gain a lot 16:41:05 so it should try to track possible states 16:41:07 of all cells 16:41:21 you can *know* the state after a [-] (turned into a set zero by the optimizer) 16:41:33 then if you can compute the value it has a bit later 16:41:38 you can turn it into a set 3 16:41:40 or whatever 16:41:50 and if you know that at the start of a balanced loop... 16:41:59 well you could either turn it into a for loop or unroll it 16:42:08 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 16:42:11 at least gcc compile for loops quite a bit faster than while loops 16:42:18 ais523, :) 16:42:27 what do you think of these ideas? 16:42:32 I assume they aren't new 16:42:46 AnMaster: I've considered similar things myself 16:43:01 however I'm unsure if I could manage to implement this 16:43:19 I mean even writing the basic optimizer was quite painful in C 16:43:27 -!- whtspc has joined. 16:43:33 some sort of tree rewriting language, hmm 16:43:36 hi 16:43:36 ais523, oil? 16:43:41 isn't that for that 16:43:44 yo 16:43:46 AnMaster: yes 16:43:49 would need a different variant though 16:43:51 whtspc: oklopol wrote a Game of Life 16:43:51 it's slow 16:43:55 something that isn't as intercal specific 16:44:00 and that is possible to actually read 16:44:01 although OIL was defined specifically for INTERCAL, it would be possible to do similar langs for other langs 16:44:06 and OIL is readable 16:44:13 ais523, do you know of any existing one? 16:44:14 at least compared to INTERCAL 16:44:20 I saw something, is there a definite version? 16:44:27 ehird? 16:44:27 AnMaster: no, or possibly I'd have used them rather than writing OIL from scratch 16:44:38 whtspc: conway's game of life 16:44:39 ais523, ah 16:44:53 ais523, still oil couldn't easily do variable tracking 16:45:02 or could it? 16:45:09 what computational class is oil btw? 16:45:28 i saw the one with the three block, amazing! 16:45:29 AnMaster: PDA, I think 16:45:32 whtspc: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p422562455.txt 16:45:36 also 16:45:37 which on 16:45:37 e 16:46:01 cool 16:46:09 ais523, PDA? 16:46:16 you mean like a PDA computer? 16:46:17 err 16:46:19 push-down automaton 16:46:21 ah 16:46:23 hah 16:47:08 ais523, still variable tracing/tracking hm, I don't know how I would even do that 16:47:23 I mean I could try to trace the entire program but that would be insane 16:47:38 I would need to give up at unbalanced loops and so on 16:47:39 hrrm 16:47:59 I've been having insane ideas as to how to optimise unbalanced loops, etc 16:48:05 and what about new simplification possible after the first pass? 16:48:19 should you try to run it again? 16:48:19 ais523, how? 16:48:20 I like to be able to easily save programs in sort of database, do you guys use something special for that? 16:48:39 I can see how if you just reorganize a bit but leave the pointer the same at the end and the start 16:48:39 say 16:48:41 should I just open a blog to quickly paste things in 16:48:48 [>++<->+>>] 16:48:51 that could be moved 16:48:52 to 16:49:00 [>+++<->>>] 16:49:07 whtspc: umm 16:49:09 and that could be moved to 16:49:09 a filesystem 16:49:11 heard of 'em 16:49:17 [->+++>>] 16:49:22 if you wanna share it, pastie.org 16:49:27 but that is about all you can do for them 16:49:36 if you want to get a list of them, insertsomerandomwordshereandbookmarkit.pastebin.com 16:49:40 sure you could try to generate effective code 16:50:01 such as substract, add 3 to next, add 3 to pointer 16:50:11 but that is still about it 16:50:12 yeah thought about pastebin 16:50:19 ais523, so what is your idea then? 16:50:44 AnMaster: work out what's being used for what 16:51:05 ais523, it would be very hard to track what the state is at the end of the loop compared to the start 16:51:10 what cells are affected 16:51:11 and such 16:51:33 ais523, probably possible and extremely hard for a few cases 16:51:40 and impossible for the majority 16:51:44 that is my *feeling* 16:51:45 so for instance you might deduce that there's a location that's always reached by [>>>] from a particular point 16:51:46 that moves around 16:51:54 ais523, hm 16:52:06 ais523, example? 16:52:48 wow, game of life :) 16:52:55 AnMaster: not easily 16:53:21 ais523, hm ok... The worst thing is if you can't figure out, for example say it is based on user input, then figure out where you can resume 16:53:23 whtspc: also 16:53:28 http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-canvas.php 16:53:31 new pgimeno interpr 16:53:33 really fast 16:53:45 if it wasn't for unbalanced loops it would be very very easy to find out 16:53:45 yeah using it right now for life 16:53:50 and it would also be non-tc 16:54:00 it's the best for easy use too 16:54:29 ais523, so how hm... 16:54:42 really looking forward to lostgeek things too 16:54:51 AnMaster: basically in the style of Proud, but saner 16:54:58 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:55:02 have a huge set of plausible assumptions to start off with 16:55:11 then given the current set of assumptions, see which are contradicted by the program 16:55:18 ais523, Proud, hm was that the uncomputable one? 16:55:23 continue iterating until you have a consistent set of assumptions 16:55:24 AnMaster: yes 16:55:36 Proud's like I suggested but with an uncountably infinite set of assumptions 16:55:42 whereas I was planning just a finite number 16:56:13 ais523, well, finite would be uh 255 * number of cells! or something like that? 16:56:25 -!- Corun has joined. 16:56:30 also 16:56:35 +[>+] 16:56:39 ais523, :P 16:56:47 ^bf +[>+] 16:56:52 fungot, ? 16:56:52 AnMaster: same core language that the rest of the arguments 16:56:56 ^help 16:56:56 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 16:57:09 why didn't it say "out of time"? 16:57:17 ^bf +[>+] 16:57:29 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++. 16:57:30 16:57:32 hm 16:57:39 ^bf +++[>++.] 16:57:39 ... 16:57:47 fizzie, is it broken? 16:58:35 ^bf ----.[>+.] 16:58:35 ü ... 16:58:37 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 16:58:38 B 16:58:41 ^bf ----.[>+] 16:58:42 ü 16:58:51 now that doesn't look right at all 16:58:58 the out of stuff thing seems broken 16:59:04 ^bf +[] 16:59:05 ais523, yes 16:59:09 ...out of time! 16:59:14 ... 16:59:18 huh 16:59:25 ^bf ----.[] 16:59:30 ü ...out of time! 16:59:49 ais523, seems it fails for "out of cells" 16:59:58 or out of tape 16:59:58 ^bf < 17:00:19 that shouldn't even be legal 17:00:28 ^hi 17:00:30 AnMaster: that's out of tape too, just off the other end 17:00:37 ^ul (test)S 17:00:37 ^show 17:00:37 test 17:00:37 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help 17:00:47 ais523, hm 17:01:20 o 17:01:21 o 17:01:27 oklopol: o 17:01:33 yes 17:01:35 o o oko 17:01:40 okoko 17:01:44 okokokoko 17:01:46 ais523, so how would you implement this optimizer? 17:01:47 okokokokokokoko 17:01:48 I don't know 17:01:55 I couldn't do it I guess 17:02:13 ais523, also what would the assumptions be? 17:02:15 AnMaster: I have too many toher things to think about, but I've thought about it before 17:02:26 ais523, "any cell can have any value"? 17:02:30 assumptions like "if the pointer points to this cell, it's location is always known" 17:02:39 "every third cell is 0 when this point in the code is reached" 17:02:58 ais523, yes true, but how do you find out a sane and/or initial set of these assumptions 17:02:58 "when the pointer's at cell 3n, n>100, then [<<<] always goes to cell 99" 17:03:01 that sort of thing 17:03:10 and the initial set is just full of all the assumptions we can think of 17:03:15 optimised somehow to save time 17:03:24 then it iteratively works out which ones are false 17:03:27 until it has a consistent set 17:04:23 I would do it like tracing the code flow as far as I could then make that constant initial state. For the rest of the code I would have to use another way 17:04:40 like trying to trace what variables are known at what points 17:05:02 like as soon as I have a [-] I can know that cell's state until the next bad section 17:05:11 like unbalanced loop, or input into said cell 17:05:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:05:45 ais523, that could work very well for gcc-bf output, but would perform rather poorly in the general case 17:05:46 or such 17:06:11 AnMaster: yes, probably 17:06:30 we'd have to test it on lots of programs to see how real BF programs were generally written 17:06:33 you would have to create an additional ruleset for the bfbasic or whatever it was called 17:06:43 and it would be nice to have it working well on BFBASIC and on gcc-bf 17:06:46 but for handwritten programs, wouldn't work well 17:07:01 AnMaster: why not? handwritten programs mostly use the same sorts of idioms as each other 17:07:07 hm 17:07:16 ais523, you should be able to add new assumptions 17:07:23 ofc 17:07:24 I mean [-] is too good to miss out on 17:07:29 "wow this cell is 0" 17:07:36 AnMaster: that's not exactly adding a new assumption 17:07:40 the assumption would be "pointer is 0 here" 17:07:46 and it would never be contradicted 17:07:55 so that one would stay in existence throughout the whole analysis 17:07:56 ais523, indeed but then 17:07:58 not added; just never taken away 17:08:03 [-]>++<+++++ 17:08:12 that can be turned into 17:08:17 AnMaster: after the > you have "left of pointer is 0 here" 17:08:25 set cell to 5, >, add 2 17:08:28 this only works if you have a huge stock of possible assumptions 17:08:49 ais523, my point is you should be able to trace cell dependencies 17:08:58 to work out you can turn that into a set to 5 17:08:59 it does trace cell dependencies! 17:09:02 ah 17:09:07 once you have all the assumptions, then you optimise 17:09:14 in this case, you get "pointer is 5 here" at the end 17:09:15 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:09:21 which is very easy to optimise 17:09:25 *pointer = 5; 17:09:27 ais523, yes and you need to find where that 5 is used 17:09:30 for example 17:09:36 yep, that would have been tracked already too 17:09:47 [-]>++<+++++[>+<-] 17:09:51 what about that? 17:09:58 i gave Weave pbrain-style functions last night, haven't uploaded 17:10:10 you could turn that into, set 0, >, add 7 17:10:15 so now it's weave threads + brainfork runtime threads + bprain functions 17:10:22 ais523, not sure you could make the program do that however easily 17:10:27 the compiler I mean 17:10:53 ais523, or? 17:10:58 let's see, I'm thinking 17:11:14 before the second [, we have "pointer is 5" 17:11:37 yep and right of pointer is two more than at the start of the section 17:11:43 yes 17:11:48 we can calculate that the loop runs *pointer times 17:12:01 yes and then we can unroll it, 17:12:02 so we can replace it with >+<->+<->+<->+<->+<- 17:12:12 and then it's easy from there 17:12:14 and reorder that 17:12:26 it would be more interesting if it was >++<+++++[>+<-] without the [-] at the start 17:12:32 ais523, well the issue with that is, how far ahead should you try to look for merging addition substraction 17:12:43 think of a 1 MB huge section without any loops 17:12:52 but where each cell affected is touched several times 17:12:57 that should be reordered 17:13:12 I think we should probably work at the level of linearisable sections 17:13:12 but it would be rather expensive for such a long section 17:13:19 i.e. sections with balanced <> 17:13:28 ais523, hm? yes the 1 MB section would have that 17:13:29 optimising a 1MB long section without loops is no slower than running it 17:13:32 and you only have to optimise it once 17:13:42 or with loops but balanced ones 17:13:55 it would be more interesting if it was >++<+++++[>+<-] without the [-] at the start <-- how then? 17:14:34 AnMaster: well, that becomes pointer[1]+=2; pointer[0]+=1; (pointer[1]+=pointer[0], pointer[0]=0); 17:14:44 ais523, still I'm not sure this is the smartest way always 17:14:45 because it's linearisable, we can track variables separately 17:14:48 s/1/5/ 17:14:59 for some balanced loops you might be better off by not unrolling it 17:15:04 but turning it into 17:15:25 AnMaster: you can't unroll if you don't know the number of iteratinos 17:15:27 *iterations 17:15:51 while (mem[ptr] != 0) { mem[ptr+2]+=4, mem[ptr]--; } 17:15:52 or such 17:15:56 if you see what I mean 17:16:01 or even into a for loop 17:16:08 that could be vectorized by gcc 17:16:13 with -fvectorize-tree 17:16:13 but unrolling is always going to help the optimiser do more optimisations, you can reroll again afterwards 17:16:15 :D 17:16:33 ais523, how would you re-roll then? not trivial or? 17:17:07 rerolling is just run length compression 17:17:19 that's what gzip effectively is doing, rerolling loops in text 17:17:47 for (unsigned char i = mem[ptr]; i != 0; i--); do { mem[ptr+1] += 1; mem[ptr+2] += 1; mem[ptr+3] += 1; } 17:18:00 that I believe gcc would vectorize probably 17:18:06 wait 17:18:10 that would be stupid still 17:18:16 you would be able to do 17:18:20 mem[ptr+1]+=mem[ptr]; 17:18:21 mem[ptr+1] -= i; 17:18:22 yeah 17:18:26 err 17:18:27 += 17:18:28 right 17:18:45 ais523, still I believe there are cases you can gain in by using for 17:19:24 well, you can't completely compile a program with loops into a program without in all cases 17:19:28 say: 17:19:34 [[-]>] 17:19:40 would be memset(0) 17:19:43 hmm... balanced loops always compile into polynomials, don't they? 17:19:46 until you hit a 0 17:19:53 ais523: bf4 compiles them to polynomials 17:19:54 ais523, oh? interesting 17:19:57 i believe 17:20:22 I reckon the best way to make an optimiser would be to always compile the polynomials first 17:20:27 ais523, true 17:20:29 then deal with unbalanced loops and assumptions on /that/ level 17:20:44 ais523, what about turning [[-]>] into a *call* to memset? 17:20:45 the assumptions could then mostly be about which cells held zero/nonzero, and where the pointer was 17:20:57 that should be very fast 17:21:14 ais523, yes true 17:21:14 AnMaster: you're thinking at a completely different level to me here 17:21:23 ais523, oh? yes I am 17:21:27 I'm trying to optimise O(n^2) down to O(n) 17:21:30 -!- whtspc has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"). 17:21:33 you're optimising O(n) into a slightly faster O(n) 17:21:36 ah 17:22:02 well turning balanced loops into polynomials first is indeed a good idea 17:22:18 ais523, but I'm not happy with that 17:22:23 so I want to go further 17:22:25 ;P 17:22:37 AnMaster: well, the usual trick is to let the C compiler do the microoptimisations 17:22:48 after the BF compiler has done the computational class optimisations 17:23:00 ais523, hah, but that requires it to understand what the program tries to do 17:23:06 which might be far from clear at times 17:23:17 considering the generated C wouldn't be very typical C code 17:23:32 AnMaster: no, it would be the sort of C code that compilers are particularly good at micro-optimising 17:23:43 something like [[-]>] into memset is trivial for a compiler like gcc 17:23:50 which sees stuff being set to 0 in a loop 17:23:57 ais523, in a while loop 17:24:03 although, that would only work if the end was known 17:24:09 so it would turn it into a strlen + a memset? 17:24:11 or what? 17:24:17 strlen + memset is slower than just looping 17:24:19 since memset is faster than setting each byte 17:24:31 ais523, depends, consider that memset can set 32 or 64 bits at a time 17:24:36 the fastest way would be to do it wordwise 17:24:37 while looping would just set 8 at a time 17:24:44 using rep movdi 17:24:47 ais523, indeed, which is what memset does iirc 17:24:53 wordwise 17:24:56 *rep movdb 17:25:03 AnMaster: aha, no 17:25:05 well I don't know what asm it uses 17:25:12 memset doesn't terminate at end of string 17:25:13 this does 17:25:17 ais523, ah 17:25:25 you want a string-set instruction, not a memory-set instruction 17:25:28 that is crazy x86 string instruction things? 17:25:31 yes 17:25:34 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:25:39 I'm pretty sure there's one that does exactly [[-]>] 17:25:44 ais523, I wouldn't know, I'm writing portable code 17:25:51 AnMaster: well, exactly 17:25:56 this is why you let the compiler worry about the details 17:26:01 ais523, hm true 17:26:02 the C compiler 17:26:20 ais523, about that rep stuff, can those be interrupted and resumed in the middle? 17:26:24 I always wondered 17:26:29 how it works with context switches 17:26:29 an insane BF optimizer would compile down to machine code 17:26:44 AnMaster: yes, but you need to keep track of the registers 17:26:56 IIRC, they put their internal state in CX or something like that 17:27:00 ais523, well the OS dumps them right 17:27:09 SI, DI, and CX, or something 17:27:16 so if the OS dumps them, it can resume the instruction 17:27:19 by issuing it again 17:27:20 ais523, only 16 bit registers? 17:27:30 that sounds like it could be an issue 17:27:34 AnMaster: I learnt x86 asm on DOS 17:27:41 it works with bigger registers almost certainly 17:27:45 ais523, ah right 17:27:59 x86 is a mess heh 17:28:01 but I have trouble thinking about anything bigger than 16 bits as I never learnt x86 asm in protected-mode 17:28:11 just good old-fashioned real-mode programming 17:28:17 * AnMaster adds a REX prefix 17:28:28 makes it operate on 64-bit operands 17:28:40 on x86_64 17:28:41 that is 17:29:22 ais523, anyway, what about constant folding too? 17:29:34 constant folding would happen automatically 17:29:38 could be done for parts inside loops 17:29:40 it's really the basis behind the whole thing 17:29:42 even unbalanced ones 17:29:47 or the start of the program 17:29:52 that I think would be a good idea 17:30:16 if the program starts with filing in lots of cells with initial values, you could constant fold that and put it in a static array 17:30:20 in the generated program 17:30:38 probably even use the static array for the first section of memory 17:30:42 or such 17:30:46 hm that is an issue 17:30:57 we can't know the memory we get allocated are in one block 17:31:04 the OS could allocate with holes 17:31:07 wow, I just realised why UK keyboards have ¬ and that weird broken-vertical-bar char on them 17:31:21 it's because they're the printable characters in EBCDIC that aren't in ASCII 17:31:22 ais523, and to handle holes you need a more complex pointer 17:31:39 that way, UK keyboards can type all the printable chars in ASCII, and all the printable chars in EBCDIC 17:31:58 ais523, well anyway, what about the issue I mentioned? 17:32:22 I would try to mmap() pages probably, but what if they are not in one single block 17:32:27 what if I do get holes 17:32:27 AnMaster: gcc-bf spends the whole first part of the program going >>>>>>>>>>>+++++++++++++>>>>>>>+++++>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++++++++++++ 17:32:38 and memory doesn't have holes if you don't ask for it with holes 17:32:40 ais523, indeed that could be constant folded 17:32:48 AnMaster: it's intended to be 17:32:48 ais523, how do you mean? realloc()? 17:32:54 but what if it needs to be moved 17:32:59 then you have issues 17:33:02 for huge data sets 17:33:02 AnMaster: there is no problem with realloc moving stuff 17:33:15 ais523, yes it would be for something with a large data set 17:33:18 AnMaster: well, if you're really crazy, use sbrk 17:33:27 it's perfect for allocating data for Brainfuck 17:33:39 although almost useless for most langs 17:33:43 ais523, hm that depends on knowing nothing else is malloced there 17:33:47 yep 17:33:52 but avoiding malloc is easy enough, surely? 17:33:55 say if I call putchar() how can I know it didn't just malloc() something 17:33:57 internallt 17:34:00 internally* 17:34:03 in libc 17:34:06 AnMaster: isn't there a guarantee somewhere about that? 17:34:14 it wouldn't surprise me if there was 17:34:22 ais523, don't think so, glibc allocs a lot of internal stuff I'm pretty sure 17:34:27 like input buffers 17:34:40 so does libbf 17:34:59 ais523, yes indeed, so suddenly sbrk may mean it isn't at the top any more! 17:35:18 well, you could do brk(NULL) to see if the break value had unexpectedly changed 17:35:24 and just realloc the whole lot if it had 17:35:38 if something's going to insist on making memory discontiguous, you're going to have to move things around to recontiguise it 17:35:40 that could leave a huge unused area below 17:35:44 that nothing can fill 17:36:05 AnMaster: you're still thinking on entirely the wrong level here 17:36:17 if you really really want massively optimised code, just refrain from syscalls 17:36:20 ais523, also I'm not sure libc isn't allowed to see there is something free below sbrk and alloc stuff there 17:36:21 or? 17:36:30 that way you know that nothing's brking behind your back 17:36:34 ais523, you need syscalls for input and output 17:36:39 bf has that 17:36:47 AnMaster: no you don't! 17:36:51 ais523, oh? 17:36:52 the operating system has to manage it somehow 17:36:57 yes it does 17:37:20 ais523, ah I got an idea, elf hack, and no idea if it works for stuff in libc 17:37:23 do like valgrind 17:37:25 redirect malloc 17:37:31 to something that allocs from mmaped areas 17:37:41 well valgrind doesn't do that bit 17:37:54 anyway it probably won't work for internall malloc() calls in the libc 17:37:58 AnMaster: it does work for stuff in libc 17:38:03 ais523, oh? 17:38:13 valgrind errors on some stuff on libc, or would do if it wasn't careful not to 17:38:19 besides, just link libc statically 17:38:22 ais523, wouldn't it use a direct call instead of going through the symbol table? 17:38:26 then it definitely works 17:39:13 ais523, and this would probably only work on a few *nix like linux 17:39:21 and freebsd at least 17:39:26 AnMaster: you are thinking on utterly utterly the wrong level, OK 17:39:32 ais523, really? 17:39:40 well I agree high level optimizations is best 17:39:44 I completely agree 17:39:54 but once that is done you want more speed 17:40:19 ais523, it isn't enough to be fast, you will want to be fastest 17:40:24 and even faster 17:40:36 just to make sure no one can sneak up easily on your speed 17:41:15 ais523, no? 17:41:47 AnMaster: but any number of low-level optimisations will fail to a big optimisation at the top that improves computational order 17:41:53 also, low-level optimisations often slow things down 17:42:12 ais523, indeed you should do the big optimisations first 17:42:22 and once that is done, continue with lower and lower levels 17:42:37 lim speed -> perfection 17:42:46 but things like ensuring that all the memory in a BF interp is contiguous are completely independent of other optimisations 17:42:50 and I don't really care about them right now 17:43:01 besides, all the BF interps in existence have never really had problems with that 17:43:17 if you want contiguous memory, allocate a few MB worth of cells in a static array 17:43:34 as in practice people never go off the end of that anyway, if they do, don't care about the time delay on realloc 17:43:38 ais523, got a link to bf4? 17:43:44 AnMaster: no I don't, ask ehird 17:43:49 ais523, ignores... 17:43:52 ais523: how, I have him on ignore 17:43:59 ehird: AnMaster wants a link to bf4 17:44:07 I did google yes 17:44:13 ais523: ouch. it must suck being in an alternate universe without google for him. 17:44:19 or the esolang wiki 17:44:25 [17:44] I did google yes 17:44:27 [17:44] ais523: ouch. it must suck being in an alternate universe without google for him. 17:44:28 classic 17:44:44 or the esolang wiki 17:44:48 perfect timing on that, AnMaster answering ehird's complaint before ehird complained it... 17:44:49 today on the ais523 show we snip context 17:44:56 ehird: it was just two lines in a row 17:45:00 ais523, thanks 17:45:02 that was post-context I snipped 17:45:12 no, it was a sentence over two lines 17:45:30 wow it isn't on the brainfuck page 17:45:33 ehird: besides, AnMaster clearly doesn't live in a world without Google or Esolang, as he lives at least in a world with Google 17:46:05 ais523, (bf|brainfuck) ?4 17:46:08 also, according to AnMaster it isn't on http://esolangs.org/wiki/brainfuck either 17:46:13 can not be found on the brainfuck esolang page 17:46:14 it is. 17:46:44 no. not with that name then 17:46:57 if it got another name it would he hard to find... 17:47:05 -!- jix_ has joined. 17:47:12 -!- jix_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:47:13 ehird: there are no instances of the digit 4 anywhere on http://esolangs.org/wiki/brainfuck 17:47:21 wait, messed up my browser 17:47:22 ais523: and? 17:47:26 -!- jix_ has joined. 17:47:27 ais523, well there is, "This page has been accessed 47,617 times." 17:47:30 and 1024 17:47:32 it isn't named in the link 17:47:32 just like bff 17:47:36 and Brainfuck interpreter for the HP48gII calculator. May also work with other HP calculators. 17:47:46 ehird: well, then why did you expect AnMaster to find it by searching Esolang 17:47:55 ok then how the heck should you find it... if it badly named 17:48:00 He could look at the link text and click ones that look relevant? 17:48:01 you're arguing against yourself here 17:48:02 That's how I found it. 17:48:11 there isn't a "bff" either 17:48:13 with that spelling 17:48:27 ehird: that's much less reasonable than asking someone who knows the link to tell where it is 17:48:40 Well, yes, but you could go for someone who wants to tell you,. 17:48:46 you're coming up with a rather beware of the leopard response 17:50:24 it is a lot more fun to optimize brainfuck than it is to code in it, IMO 17:52:10 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:52:15 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:53:00 ok with some googling I found this http://mozaika.com.au/oleg/brainf/ 17:53:08 after: 17:53:18 bff4 brainfuck 17:53:28 well that wasn't the name ehird told us initially 17:53:33 ais523, ^ 17:53:46 now if he had said that it would have been simpler 17:53:50 ehird: AnMaster says that the interp in question is actually called bff4 17:53:56 so you even got the name you told em wrong 17:54:01 bf4, bff4 17:54:04 not exactly hard to make the leap? 17:54:09 ehird: well, yes it is 17:54:14 k 17:54:16 yes, why would I try to look for an extra f? 17:54:20 would you claim that bf and bff are the same interp? 17:54:24 I mean, brain ffuck? 17:54:26 or what? 17:54:28 no, but the 4 is the main thing 17:54:55 ehird: that's a version number... naming programs including the version number is fine, naming programs after /just/ the version number is stupid 17:55:05 ais523: It is not a version number. 17:55:07 unless the version number itself is something stupid like XP or Vista 17:55:22 ais523, someone else made bff it says on that page 17:55:26 ah, yes 17:55:27 so it is a separate program 17:55:29 but still 17:55:31 but still 17:55:36 how could I guess there was an extra f? 17:55:46 I mean, it isn't in the name "brainfuck 17:55:48 " 17:55:51 there is one f there 17:55:53 not two 17:56:11 so how on earth would it be possible to guess that one should add the extra f 17:56:45 why not add an extra b? 17:56:47 instead 17:56:49 ehird: , Google disagrees with you on the 4 being the main thing 17:56:50 or an extra 4 17:56:59 ais523: bf{f}4 17:57:03 if it was, a Google search for "brainfuck 4" would find what you were talking about 17:57:04 seriously, stop bugging me. 17:57:12 sure ehird, but you didn't say it at the start 17:57:16 it's very obvious i don't feel like helping AnMaster. 17:57:20 ehfird: why on earth would you assume people would randomly add an extra 4 to things? 17:57:33 ais523, or an extra f... 17:57:38 that wasn't a regexp. 17:57:38 AnMaster: yes 17:57:40 sorry 17:57:41 and also just admitting the mistake would be easier 17:57:55 ehird: well, clearly, it's a syntax error as a regexp 17:58:06 also he didn't say that initially 17:58:09 it's legal but pointless as a wildmat 17:58:26 {,f} 17:58:26 AnMaster: don't be too hard on ehird, his keyboard obviously has an invisible f key button that he pressed by mistake 17:58:31 being invisible, he didn't realise 17:58:38 ais523, oh? 17:58:39 those Apple keyboards are strange... 17:58:42 ah true 17:58:53 k, call me back when you're talking about esolangs instead of lolling with AnMaster about me, i kind of have better things to do than being highlighted every 2 seconds 17:58:55 -!- ehird has left (?). 17:59:00 ais523, so you mean he got one normal and one invisible f? 17:59:04 presumably 17:59:11 also he can't simply admit he did a mistake 17:59:11 as he's obviously capable of typing visible fs 17:59:25 AnMaster: actually, he seems to have admitted he was being deliberately obstructive to try to annoy you 17:59:27 * AnMaster sighs 17:59:34 ais523, well true, but... 17:59:39 which makes complaining about the resulting revenge a bit rich 18:00:18 ais523, haah 18:00:20 hah* 18:00:39 ok the bff4 code isn't very well commented 18:00:47 http://mazonka.com/brainf/bff4.c 18:01:14 one helpfull thing is that -DLNR is supposed to be what makes it optimize linear loops 18:01:35 so hopefully not to hard to find the relevant code that way 18:02:01 if( z->linear ) 18:02:01 { 18:02:01 int del = m[mp]/z->linear; 18:02:01 for( i=0; isz; i++ ) m[mp+z->off+i]+=del*z->d[i]; 18:02:01 } 18:02:04 that seems to be it 18:02:14 it calculates if it is linear a bit before 18:02:19 now wtf does that code do 18:02:20 AnMaster: I'm too busy with other things to attempt to parse that code, I think 18:02:32 ais523, a bit obfuscated isn't it 18:02:42 meaningless variable names, not enough spaces 18:02:54 it's slightly worse than what I write on average, which means it must be /really/ bad 18:03:13 ais523, the whole file is like that 18:03:21 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 18:03:29 ais523, after the includes there is *NO* comment 18:03:51 I comment my code quite a bit normally 18:03:54 especially the obfuscated code 18:04:03 even the IOCCC stuff is commented, although the comments are just there to confuse people 18:04:05 such as /\ 18:04:07 with the * on the next line 18:04:30 heh 18:04:33 well this is the reverse 18:04:55 ais523, also bff4 seems to be an interpreter not a compiler 18:05:15 it's basically a bytecode compiler + interpreter, I think 18:05:26 ah 18:09:41 ais523, hm would it be possible to optimize > or < into a constant goto cell after an unbalanced loop? 18:09:46 what would be needed to be able to 18:09:48 I mean like 18:09:56 setting pointer to a fixed value 18:10:08 not like adding or subtracting a specific value 18:10:33 another thing 18:10:40 guys 18:10:41 what about loops like: 18:10:44 sambuca = delicious 18:10:47 ais523, hm would it be possible to optimize > or < into a constant goto cell after an unbalanced loop? <--- that's the main thing I want to focus on 18:10:56 [>.<-] 18:11:01 that is balanced 18:11:06 but not easily translated 18:11:09 hm wait 18:11:15 you could make a balanced one too 18:11:29 [>+<.] 18:11:34 err 18:11:35 waiut 18:11:36 [>.<-] is trivially translated 18:11:36 wait* 18:11:38 , 18:11:41 not . 18:11:44 I typoed that 18:11:44 it just prints a character lots of times 18:11:49 , is more interesting 18:11:50 ais523, I typoed, I meant , 18:11:52 yeah 18:12:04 that just reads characters forever, doesn't it? 18:12:04 or , that ends up affecting loop count 18:12:11 but where you can still know the cell 18:12:29 ais523, hm ok, so what about one where it substracts 78 from the value it read? 18:12:33 AnMaster: things like ,[.,] probably can't be optimised any furthre 18:12:37 *further 18:12:40 that could be easily input and hit 0 18:12:42 or not 18:12:46 see what I mean? 18:13:20 like: [, -78 ] 18:13:26 in pesudo code 18:13:33 then if I enter N the loop will ned 18:13:38 but anything else it will continue 18:13:41 yet it is balanced 18:13:50 sure that is hard to optimize more 18:13:56 but you could have other code 18:13:57 in it 18:13:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:14:10 that would be easy to optimize with known iteration count 18:14:20 but you can no longer do anything but a while loop 18:14:31 ais523, right? 18:14:35 AnMaster: there is nothing intrinsically bad about while loops 18:14:44 it's the number of nested loops you want to be able to keep down in a program 18:14:55 ais523, true 18:15:10 but still user input affecting the loop counter might be hard to handle 18:15:15 AnMaster: no it isn't, just do a while loop 18:15:15 it blocks a lot of optimizing 18:15:20 that's what it /is/, after all 18:15:32 it doesn't block the sort of high-level optimisations I care about, just your low-level parallelised megafors 18:15:43 ais523, true, but you know what I saw recently, with gcc, a while loop used for comping CRC, was slow 18:15:46 changed to a for loop 18:15:49 a lot faster 18:16:08 and yes object size was known at compile time in both cases 18:16:11 AnMaster: is "a lot" a factor of 10000 or more? 18:16:15 or more like 1.2? 18:16:26 ais523, a lot being like a factor or 4 times as fast or so 18:16:27 it's the factor-of-10000 changes I'm going for 18:16:39 between 4 and 8 18:16:40 or so 18:16:43 iirc 18:17:16 ais523, since it was run several hundred of thousands of times during a single execution however 18:17:21 it did help 18:17:36 it was at the top of "time spent in function" in gprof output 18:17:46 before 18:17:51 far from the top after 18:17:56 so for that case it mattered 18:18:01 anyway, I'd like to end this conversation, so I can concentrate on something else 18:18:05 ais523, ok :) 18:18:07 I have a massively long email to reconstruct 18:18:11 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:18:21 ais523, meanwhile I will try to work on some ideas I got from this convo 18:18:28 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit). 18:18:44 and i will go to el shoppo 18:18:48 oklopol, cya 18:19:05 optimizing bf again i see, i gutta read the context when i returnn 18:26:34 oklopol, we had some new ideas 18:27:38 -!- Deewiant has joined. 18:27:50 -!- ineiros has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 18:39:01 Deewiant, ais523: good name for the project? 18:39:05 I can't think of one 18:39:13 bf2c seems to be used already 18:39:17 AnMaster: bf4 18:39:22 haha 18:39:25 with one f 18:39:36 Results 1 - 10 of about 704,000 for bf4. (0.17 seconds) 18:39:41 not good 18:39:45 want a googlable name 18:41:41 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:42:02 Results 1 - 8 of 8 for bf4 brainfuck. (0.05 seconds) 18:42:05 hm much better 18:42:16 and the interpreter with the same name is crap it seems 18:42:19 but still 18:43:04 bfff3.14 18:43:06 what about that? 18:43:36 call it "before" 18:44:19 ais523, not googlable 18:45:26 I don't really put much stock in Google 18:46:20 hm 18:48:54 AnMaster: tell ideas 18:49:40 oklopol, read above? 18:49:48 I'm busy coding now 18:49:59 ic 18:57:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:05:57 ais523, right, before it is 19:06:24 * oerjan wonders what went into that 19:06:52 and will the successor be called befyve? 19:08:00 is this an interpreter for ordinary bf, or is there something extra? 19:08:08 oklopol 19:08:25 psygnisfive 19:08:28 hey 19:09:19 psygnisfive: glio 19:09:24 you broke the chain :( 19:10:02 glio? 19:10:09 oerjan, not an interpreter 19:10:10 a bitta glio never hurt anyone 19:10:11 miz glio? 19:10:12 it is a compiler 19:10:14 to C 19:10:19 optimizing one 19:10:24 i don't know who miz is 19:10:30 oerjan: it was a very short chain... 19:10:34 it will implement some new ideas that ais523 and me discussed above 19:10:42 ais523: killed in its infancy :( 19:10:52 ais523: i think oerjan extrapolated it'd be a long conversation. 19:11:04 but then i had to come and steal focus 19:11:15 ais523, hahah at function name: before_postprocess 19:11:16 :D 19:11:33 or: 19:11:35 prepostprocess 19:11:36 before_init() 19:11:41 that is actually emitted 19:11:46 oklopol: that's preposterous 19:11:49 and before_cleanup() 19:11:50 it's emitted now? 19:12:04 "static inline void before_init(void) {", 19:12:04 " cells = malloc(CHUNKSIZE * sizeof(beforecell));", 19:12:04 " cellcnt = CHUNKSIZE;", 19:12:04 " memset(cells, 0, cellcnt * sizeof(beforecell));", 19:12:04 "}", 19:12:19 I based this on the def-bf compiler I was working on 19:12:29 except pikhq never finished his high level part 19:12:35 so I consider the def-bf stuff dead 19:12:39 no one ever finishes anything 19:12:45 oklopol: actually the second google hit on glio is on someone who died from it :/ 19:12:51 :D 19:13:01 "static inline void before_cleanup(void) {", 19:13:01 " free(cells);", 19:13:01 "}" 19:13:07 anyone ever done any machine learning stuff? :T 19:14:30 oerjan: most hilarious death of the day, even more fun than your chain. 19:14:47 wtf is glio? 19:15:01 apparently it was an abbreviation of glioblastoma 19:15:28 yeah that's what i meant 19:15:31 ah 19:15:34 cancer 19:15:50 yes, who doesn't like cancer 19:15:56 !! -> 19:16:08 I don't 19:16:25 now i still wonder what oklopol meant by glio 19:17:05 oerjan: stop getting my sarcasm, you're ruining all the AnMaster from me. 19:17:31 huh 19:17:34 oh i didn't see your "yeah that's what i meant" 19:19:28 lessee, there's a User:Glio on wikimedia 19:19:54 ^bf >>,[[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++.[-]>>,]!test 19:19:55 116.101.115.116. 19:19:57 a chinese 19:20:06 ^bf >>,[[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++.[-]>>,]!hm nice very nice 19:20:07 104.109.32.110.105.99.101.32.118.101.114.121.32.110.105.99.101. 19:20:14 ^bf >>,[[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++.[-]>>,]!9 19:20:14 57. 19:20:38 oklopol: of course i was hoping you were fluent in the Glio-Oubi language 19:27:10 heh 19:27:24 already the not very much optimizing compiler is twice as fast as bff4 19:27:28 ais523, ^ 19:27:37 I guess the fact that it is compiled is the cause 19:27:45 AnMaster: wow, that's pretty good 19:27:47 is it linearising? 19:27:49 ais523, no 19:27:55 just merging >>> <<< and such 19:28:05 ais523, was testing on mandelbrot.b 19:28:08 ok, probably it depends on the program you run it on then 19:28:10 can pastebin it if you want 19:29:00 ais523, was using gcc -march=k8 -msse3 -O3 -ftree-vectorize for both bff4 and the source my compiler generated 19:29:18 +[>+] should terminate when the first cell wrap-arounds; that's just some 3*256000 instructions. Well, I guess it should time-out before that, actually. 19:29:21 $ gcc -Wall -Wextra -march=k8 -msse3 -O3 -ftree-vectorize -DLNR -o bff4 bff4.c 19:29:22 that one 19:29:24 AnMaster: I'd argue that your compiler is not at all faster than bff4 19:29:31 just you're using better compiler options 19:29:35 and a better implementatino 19:29:38 *implementation 19:29:46 ais523, I'm using the same options for both 19:30:03 $ gcc -Wall -Wextra -march=k8 -msse3 -O3 -ftree-vectorize -o mandelbrot mandelbrot.c 19:30:04 well a compiler's always going to beat the interpreter unless the interpreter manages to optimise stuff a lot 19:30:14 ais523, indeed 19:30:27 ais523, but this makes it very very hard to compare 19:30:33 if not impossible 19:30:54 AnMaster: how do they compare on Lost Kingdoms startup? 19:31:05 ais523, hm hard to measure 19:31:09 I used this: 19:31:18 time ./mandelbrot 19:31:19 real 0m10.572s 19:31:19 user 0m9.879s 19:31:19 sys 0m0.059s 19:31:23 well output cut 19:31:23 and 19:31:30 ^bf +[>+]++++++++++. 19:31:32 time ./bff4 < mandelbrot.b 19:31:33 real 0m20.173s 19:31:33 user 0m18.722s 19:31:33 sys 0m0.143s 19:31:34 . 19:31:39 Seems that my timeout limits are not very strict. 19:31:57 ^bf +[>+]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 19:32:01 < 19:32:13 fizzie: how do you explain that? 19:32:19 it's executing the code after +[>+] 19:32:19 ais523, waiting for gcc to compile lostkingdom 19:32:20 argh 19:32:22 which is really strange 19:32:26 had to abort 19:32:28 swap trashing 19:32:29 hehe 19:32:33 AnMaster: ah, I forgot about that... 19:32:36 ais523: Why not? +[>+] terminates when one cell wrap-arounds. 19:32:47 ais523, well I removed the case stuff 19:32:49 fizzie: no it doesn't 19:32:51 since it is no longer needed 19:32:56 it sets each cell to 1 on the entire atpe 19:32:58 but it still manages to be very slow 19:32:58 *tape 19:32:58 I have a 1000-cell tape which wraps, and one-byte cells. 19:33:02 and swap trash 19:33:06 fizzie: oh, the tape wraos? 19:33:08 *wraps? 19:33:13 $ wc -l LostKng.c 19:33:13 168337 LostKng.c 19:33:14 ais523, ^ 19:33:17 no wonder we couldn't get it to display an out-of-tape message 19:33:18 with LOTS of macros too 19:33:26 so that expands quite a bit 19:34:00 $ gcc -std=c99 -E -o tmp.c LostKng.c 19:34:06 $ wc -l tmp.c 19:34:07 169855 tmp.c 19:34:10 not as much as I feared 19:34:24 just a 5.7 MB file :P 19:34:38 Yes, there's no infinite tape in fungot's brainfuck. Isn't a fixed-size memory quite common for brainfuck? 19:34:38 fizzie: get. out. 19:34:44 fungot: Well excuse me! 19:34:45 fizzie: let's just pretend that it's necessary :) at least i have. :) ( and i'm not sure what 19:34:50 hm 19:34:57 ais523, bff4 exists on lostkingdom 19:35:05 *exits? 19:35:10 ah yes 19:35:38 read(0, "#!/usr/bin/bf\n\n# Name : Lost"..., 2048) = 2048 19:35:38 brk(0) = 0x2263000 19:35:38 brk(0x2284000) = 0x2284000 19:35:38 exit_group(0) = ? 19:35:41 how strange 19:36:27 AnMaster: why did you just paste that? 19:36:32 also, what is exit_group? 19:36:35 I was stracing it 19:36:41 why bff4 exits 19:36:42 and brk seems to be acting entirely sanely there to me 19:37:02 ais523: since I don't know how to feed input to a program running under gdb from a pipe 19:37:07 since that is what bff4 wants 19:37:10 you do like; 19:37:14 ./bff4 < foo.b 19:37:19 it seems 19:37:29 AnMaster: gdb has a command-line arg for that, IIRC 19:37:37 and I don't remember what 19:38:17 I don't remember what it is either 19:39:10 hm now it works 19:39:16 since I removed the headers 19:39:19 like #! 19:39:22 oh wait 19:39:30 it treats ! special right 19:39:37 yes 19:39:42 ! means end of program, start of input 19:39:42 hm 19:39:47 in BF programs which take them in the same stream 19:40:09 well 19:40:22 this means I have to paste all of lostkingdom on it's stdin 19:40:24 fuck that 19:40:51 I have better things to do 20:11:26 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection reset by peer). 20:11:48 damn I need an integer that can also be unset 20:11:56 and I can't reverse any special value 20:11:59 what to do 20:12:09 AnMaster: define a Maybe Integer 20:12:15 ais523, C.... 20:12:23 although this requires you to use a programming language, like Perl with Moose or Haskell, in which they exist 20:12:27 ais523, and the size is important 20:12:34 can't you use the next size up? 20:12:34 like struct size 20:12:49 ais523, well no this is for tracking offset of cells within loop 20:12:53 AnMaster: well you can't fit 32 and a fraction bits into a 32-bit variable 20:12:56 like size_t offset; 20:12:59 physically impossible 20:13:03 ais523, yes :( 20:13:07 err 20:13:09 not size_t 20:13:11 ssize_t 20:13:11 you could have a separate one-bit variable which tracks whether it's set or not 20:13:27 and if it's ssize_t, why not use the minimum possible value as exceptional? 20:13:32 ah yes let me look at padding in struct 20:13:49 ais523, but what if someone adds that many > on a 32-bit platform? 20:14:01 AnMaster: you can only compare them one way round is the point 20:14:03 and use off64_t for files 20:14:18 ssize_t can only cover half the memory space as it is 20:14:29 ais523, ah hm true 20:14:41 well I guess the situation should never 20:14:42 happen 20:14:47 and I could document the issue 20:14:58 sounds like you really want a 33-and-a-fraction-bit variable 20:15:15 ais523, I also yes and an union to not waste spaec 20:15:16 but the minimum value wouldn't even exist except on a 2's complement machine 20:15:16 space 20:15:27 it's equal to 0-itself, anyway, so doesn't act sanely with arithmetic 20:15:28 ais523, huh? 20:15:32 that's why it makes a good exceptional value 20:15:37 AnMaster: the value with bit pattern 100000000000000000000000000000000 20:15:42 ah yes 20:16:16 that is negative 0 basically 20:16:21 no, it isn't 20:16:25 it's the opposite of -0 20:16:26 well no true 20:16:31 it's as far from 0 as you can get 20:16:32 positive 0? 20:16:35 in both directions 20:16:35 ah 20:16:36 ok 20:16:47 rather than -0 which arithmetically works the same way as 0 20:16:52 ais523, that would be FOO_MIN right? 20:16:56 yes 20:16:57 assuming there is one for ssize_t 20:17:01 * AnMaster looks 20:17:27 hm there is not 20:17:28 SSIZE_MAX 20:17:32 but no MIN 20:17:35 very strange 20:17:37 it's -SSIZE_MAX-1 20:17:44 it has to be defined like that 20:17:55 on 2 complement 20:17:56 say, SHORT_MIN can't actually be -32768 20:18:01 it has to be -32767-1 20:18:27 because - is an operator, and 32768 needn't neccessarily fit in an int 20:18:29 ais523, a grep shows SHORT_MIN isn't defined either 20:18:32 in any system header 20:18:37 SHRT_MIN 20:18:39 probably 20:18:44 some stupid abbreviation from decades ago 20:18:46 ah yes 20:18:51 ais523, well it is short 20:18:53 so I like it 20:19:00 :P 20:19:03 is that an attempt at a joke? 20:19:06 also SSIZE_MIN doesn't exist 20:19:14 ais523, yes a *short* form of *short* 20:19:26 was the joke that bad? 20:19:41 /usr/include/limits.h:# define LONG_MIN(-LONG_MAX - 1L) 20:19:43 AnMaster: yes 20:20:04 although my headers define SHORT_MIN as -32768 directly, because they know they're for a 32-bit system 20:20:18 the same thing applies to all integer sizes, just I can't remember the relevant power of 2 20:20:41 AnMaster: it was a reasonably good joke until you explained it :D 20:20:50 oerjan, well I had to for ais523 20:20:57 AnMaster: actually, I got it 20:21:06 just wasn't sure if you were joking deliberately or not 20:21:26 now I am normally THAT bad at jokes really? 20:21:27 :( 20:21:33 anyway 20:21:37 so, why isn't it LONG_MAXIMUM? 20:21:44 SSIZE_MIN isn't defined 20:21:46 oerjan, :) 20:21:53 AnMaster: it's -SSIZE_MAX-1 20:21:57 if SSIZE_MAX is defined 20:22:01 ais523, on 2 complement at least 20:22:01 and you're on a two's complement system 20:22:06 which given your stupid optimisation you are 20:22:17 ais523, but how would i know I am? 20:22:17 ais523, err, what? 20:22:21 I'm just trying to count index 20:22:24 hmm... why not detect the representation at compile-time 20:22:33 and use SSIZE_MIN as your exceptional value on 2's complement 20:22:35 ais523, as in "this is offset two from start of loop" 20:22:38 and -0 on 1's complement 20:22:47 AnMaster: why not use unsigned size_t, the? 20:22:49 *then? 20:23:02 ais523, [>-<+] 20:23:02 or 20:23:03 also, rely on the fact that the loop can't possibly take up all of memory due to the final ] 20:23:05 ais523, [<->+] 20:23:07 well 20:23:10 it can go either way 20:23:11 thus you can safely use SIZE_MAX as your exceptional value 20:23:23 AnMaster: measure offset from the start of the program instead, then 20:23:24 haha ok 20:23:25 and do a subtraction 20:23:41 (there's also the fact that the compiler itself has to be in memory somewhere, but that isn't as funny) 20:23:43 err? what? 20:23:50 anyway: not easy if there is an unbalanced loop 20:23:54 AnMaster: instead of taking the offset from one place to another 20:23:57 then I can't know tape offset 20:24:03 oh, tape offset 20:24:06 yes 20:24:10 that was what I was doing 20:24:11 I thought you meant offset in program 20:24:21 the stuff have already been mangled a bit by this point 20:24:26 however I'm unsure about order 20:24:48 that is the order that I should do various reductions 20:25:19 should I try to handle >><< first, then the tape offset, then [-] 20:25:22 or some other order? 20:25:35 it doesn't seem trivial to combine them 20:25:57 but I guess it could work 20:26:03 except [-] shouldn't be done first 20:26:08 since that wouldn't catch 20:26:15 [>+<->-<] 20:26:18 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:26:28 which the tape offset would manage to turn into [-] 20:26:35 which then could be turned into set 0 20:26:44 or should I do multiple passes with each optimizer? 20:26:51 ais523, :) 20:27:04 AnMaster: C-INTERCAL does multiple passes 20:27:04 I want to catch all cases I can catch 20:27:07 until nothing more is optimised 20:27:09 that's probably the best way 20:27:12 ais523, ah 20:27:28 ais523, I already avoid multiple passes with >><< reduction 20:27:35 by stepping one step backwards 20:27:43 so I can catch: 20:27:45 --<>+ 20:27:48 to turn it into - 20:28:05 without that I would get: 2- 1+ 20:28:17 also brb making some food 20:28:41 -!- puzzlet has joined. 20:38:37 -!- warrie has joined. 20:38:47 Hi, #math. 20:39:28 BZZT, WRONG 20:39:37 How dare you disturb my hallucinations. 20:39:48 Let's try this again. 20:39:50 Hi, #math. 20:40:12 warrie: we're now debating whether or not 3=4 20:40:16 -!- Deewiant has quit ("Viivan loppu."). 20:40:16 ehird seems to think it is, for some reason 20:40:20 hi warrie, did you know your nick is a prime in base 256? 20:40:24 No we're not. 20:40:29 also, we're debating whether 4 increased by 1 is 5 20:40:30 Nope. That's cool. 20:40:37 * oerjan might be lying 20:40:43 -!- Deewiant has joined. 20:40:43 haven't checked yet :D 20:40:57 oerjan: "warrie" is even in base 256 20:41:04 no way 20:41:06 unless you use ASCII 20:41:12 96+5 is odd 20:41:15 going by the hex 0-9a-f thing but extended 20:41:20 then you get a, c, e as even 20:41:23 of course i'm using ascii 20:41:28 ah, ok 20:42:19 The derivative of |x| with respect to x is |x| divided by x, right? 20:42:42 yes, that's one way to put it 20:42:52 it's undefined at 0, though, rather than infinite 20:42:54 Still true in the complex numbers and all? 20:43:00 although whether this makes a difference depends on how pedantic you are 20:43:04 |0|/0 is not very infinite. 20:43:15 warrie: well, it's a NaN 20:43:34 arguably that's decent for an undefined derivative 20:43:35 darn it's divisible by 5 20:43:41 back 20:44:04 I'll do the Chain Rule Test. 20:44:57 warrie: |x| is surely not analytic so complexes are not nice 20:45:20 ais523, ah I worked it out 20:45:26 I need to track offset from what anyway 20:45:38 so that one is NULL or a node pointer 20:45:45 I'm not sure how sane this is... 20:47:16 -i = |i|/i = d|ix|/dx = d|ix|/d(ix)*d(ix)/x = |ix|/(ix) * i = |x|/x... yeah, I forgot that you can't differentiate |x| over the complex numbers. 20:47:45 warrie: you might check it in the x direction 20:48:21 * warrie shrugs 20:48:24 sqrt(x^2+y^2) 20:48:38 I'll just use "undefined". 20:49:58 oerjan, what about my nick? 20:52:08 gah, this is annoying: I found an interesting obfuscated quine on a webpage, but it doesn't give the program, just an example of its output 20:53:06 I hate it when you know a quine's output but not its source code. 20:53:10 yep 20:53:27 hm 20:53:28 in 20:53:31 in C* 20:53:49 is using memset(foo, 0, sizeof(foo_t)); 20:53:51 -!- Deewiant has quit ("Viivan loppu."). 20:53:58 where foo foo_t *foo; 20:54:03 and foo_t is a struct 20:54:11 -!- Deewiant has joined. 20:54:13 a safe way to ensure are pointers in said struct are all NULL? 20:54:16 What is an obfuscated quine, by the way? 20:54:22 ais523, ^ 20:54:27 Of course not, since all-bits-zero is not necessarily NULL. 20:54:46 Not that people wouldn't do that sort of stuff anyway. 20:54:52 warrie: something which isn't obviously a quine 20:54:57 although this one's just a meaning-quine 20:55:05 in that it outputs a program that does the same thing as it 20:55:09 but isn't necessarily the same 20:55:12 several programs, in fact 20:55:40 yes 20:55:41 AnMaster: 4714790940847662450 20:55:50 oerjan, is that my nick? 20:55:54 well it is even so... 20:55:56 yes 20:56:07 and divisible by 5 that too 20:56:11 oerjan, and 10 20:56:17 also how do you calculate it? 20:56:31 like befunge fingerprints? 20:56:37 as in 0xabcdef 20:56:41 so each 20:56:43 ab cd ef 20:56:46 maps to a char 20:56:47 or 20:56:50 some other way? 20:56:56 i used haskell: readInt 256 (const True) (fromEnum) "AnMaster" 20:57:10 oerjan, well that doesn't answer the question 20:57:12 (requires Numeric module) 20:57:24 oerjan, what is the mathematical mapping? 20:57:36 how do you parse it 20:57:47 you just pointed at a black box 20:57:50 and said "I use that" 20:57:51 i guess that befunge thing is the same 20:57:56 it didn't answer the *how* 20:58:10 oerjan, that is: 20:58:18 while read char { 20:58:26 bitshift result up by 8; 20:58:34 add ascii value of char; 20:58:34 } 20:58:39 in pseudo code 20:58:48 oerjan, is that how you do it? 20:58:58 that should be equivalent yes 20:59:11 oerjan, so CFUN is? 20:59:13 except readInt uses an actual multiplication by 256 20:59:31 (since it is not restricted to powers of 2) 20:59:35 oerjan, it should be 0x4346554e 20:59:36 btw 20:59:37 CFUN 20:59:41 if it is the same way 20:59:42 "fizzie" is 112603212441957 = 3*1747*20897*1028141. I'm "almost prime", for some values of "almost". 21:00:06 $ factor 112603212441957 21:00:06 112603212441957: 3 1747 20897 1028141 21:00:09 well ok 21:00:12 almost I guess 21:00:19 except readInt uses an actual multiplication by 256 21:00:19 (since it is not restricted to powers of 2) 21:00:26 that is odd, doesn't ghc optimize? 21:00:34 fizzie: so what is the value of "almost"? 21:00:45 AnMaster: Int and Integer are different types in Haskell 21:00:50 ais523: In this case, "not really, but sorta". 21:00:54 AnMaster: it's 0x416e4d6173746572 21:01:02 oerjan, CFUN? 21:01:10 no then you use some totally different way 21:01:11 "AnMaster" 21:01:15 ah 21:01:22 oerjan, and what is CFUN in your system 21:01:24 that string 21:01:30 oerjan, so CFUN is? 21:01:32 oerjan, it should be 0x4346554e 21:01:40 [cut] 21:01:43 AnMaster: it's 0x416e4d6173746572 21:01:53 oerjan, doesn't make sense does it? 21:02:20 that's correct 21:02:22 AnMaster: that string oerjan pasted is "AnMaster", I think 21:02:27 wait, no 21:02:43 that 72 at the end looks wrong 21:02:44 I do have a convert the other way for 32-bit routine somewhere around here 21:02:49 oh, ofc, there are more than 16 letters in the alphabet 21:02:53 so yes, probably AnMaster 21:02:57 ah 21:03:00 well 21:03:17 fungeCell fprint = ImplementedFingerprints[i].fprint; 21:03:17 char fprintname[5] = { (char)(fprint >> 24), (char)(fprint >> 16), 21:03:17 (char)(fprint >> 8), (char)fprint, '\0'}; 21:03:18 :P 21:03:28 that very much depends on it being max 32-bit 21:03:32 and all printable chars 21:04:00 AnMaster: i thought by CFUN you meant some technical abbreviation meaning "fingerprint notation" 21:04:14 oerjan, no it is the handprint of cfunge 21:04:20 that is: interpreter ID 21:04:23 perl -e 'use bignum; $x = 256*$x + ord($_) foreach split //, "fizzie"; print $x, "\n";' 21:04:31 with some type punning it should be faster 21:04:31 The perly thing is less pretty than Haskell. Surprise! 21:04:36 to just store it as an integer 21:04:41 and read it as chars 21:04:42 however 21:04:46 that isn't very safe 21:04:53 from a C standard perspective 21:04:59 I try to avoid such cases 21:05:02 also, I've been writing a lot of Prolog recently 21:05:04 I assume strict aliasing rules 21:05:09 and decided that Prolog is really pretty 21:05:17 and at least as reflective as Smalltalk 21:05:20 except in 3 places: FPDP, FPSP and 3DSP 21:05:39 ais523, heh I should probably try to learn prolog 21:05:45 got a link for any good online resource? 21:05:57 AnMaster: I learnt it from paper books originally 21:06:02 so no, unfortunately 21:06:14 oh well 21:06:22 there probably are some 21:06:26 but Prolog is... different 21:06:28 yeah 21:06:32 hm yes? 21:06:35 and many sources for it start by trying to compare it to something 21:06:44 ais523, I have seen backtracking done in scheme 21:06:46 it wasn't pretty 21:06:49 which I think is a bad way to learn it, but how else could you start? 21:06:49 or easy to follow 21:07:04 and it abused both macros and call/cc 21:07:16 abusing call/cc is an obvious way to do backtracking 21:07:23 ais523, well yes 21:07:42 In fact I find call/cc abusive for anything, yes I see how it is useful 21:07:46 but it is mindbending 21:08:09 and I can write perfectly fine and working scheme programs without either macros or call/cc 21:08:12 -!- Deewiant has quit ("Viivan loppu."). 21:08:19 a lot more typing though 21:08:37 -!- Deewiant has joined. 21:10:14 backtracking is a monad, and all monads can be implemented with call/cc, i hear 21:10:46 oerjan: I had a discussion with a really theoretical computer scientist once 21:10:49 (+ some state) 21:11:02 I asked whether backtracking was a monad, and he said it couldn't be because that obviously would fail on infinitely large data sets 21:11:09 but I was too confused to ask him to elaborate on that 21:11:10 I think SICP has one chapter about their amb-eval thing, which implements Scheme with a "(amb x y z)" special form, which will evaluate to the "correct" value, backtracking whenever it fails (hits (amb) with no choices). 21:12:47 Well, subchapter, anyway. It's there where they start with the metacircular evaluator, then try lazy evaluation with it, then the nondeterministic amb thing, and finally some logic programmingsies. 21:16:57 ais523: maybe he was confused about something like that amb which only takes a finite number of arguments... 21:17:11 but you can obviously get around that with recursion 21:18:57 and backtracking _does_ fail on infinitely large data sets, if by fail you mean "never gets to the end" 21:20:18 i have a brainfuck question 21:20:23 yes? 21:20:27 elsif command == '[' and tape[thread[pointer]] == 0 21:20:43 that isn't exactly a question... 21:21:02 does the matching ] brace do a test as well? 21:21:09 -!- Deewiant has quit ("Viivan loppu."). 21:21:19 brainfuck spec on esowiki says no, but one of the derivatives did 21:21:20 -!- Deewiant has joined. 21:21:29 lost kingdom runs without a check on ] 21:21:30 jayCampbell: it doesn't matter normally 21:21:39 because either ] jumps back to [, which does the test 21:21:43 or ] does the test itself 21:21:53 thus specs generally say either 21:22:02 awesome 21:22:17 one big advantage of testing at both ends is it then doesn't matter which side of the [] you jump back to, but that's an implementation detail that rarely comes up 21:22:31 basically, it doesn't matter unless you're implementing, in which case you can choose either 21:22:48 implementations in most programming languages test just at the [ because that fits the semantics of while loops 21:23:01 but if you're implementing BF in an esolang, that's often slower if you have no while-loop-equivalent 21:23:06 so i built a weave interpreter (prefork, individual and shared tapes) that does brainfork runtime threading and pbrain subroutines 21:23:39 ais523, actually I remember testing once at entry and after that I tested if I should jump back at the end 21:23:48 and then jumped to the instruction after the matching [ 21:23:52 that was in bashfuck 21:23:53 iirc 21:24:08 AnMaster: there are a huge number of ways to do it, I think 21:24:33 ais523, in before I just emit a while loop currently 21:24:46 in the future I will emit for loops for balanced pure loops 21:24:50 where pure == no IO 21:25:00 yes it doesn't match pure as in pure functional 21:25:10 but it was the best word I managed to come up with 21:25:22 ais523, of course I plan to optimize it even more later on 21:25:38 but currently I haven't managed to understand exactly how that would be done 21:25:52 also it will to for when io isn't on iteration counter cell 21:25:54 and balanced 21:26:20 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:29:32 ais523, 21:29:38 currently I have these flags 21:29:56 balanced, noinput, noputput, iter_noinput 21:30:02 fungot's brainfuck turns [ into bytecode "jump if zero" and ] into "jump if nonzero", with jump targets being one past matching pair. 21:30:03 fizzie: xpdf really should allow searching with regexps, ' fnord 21:30:43 bool balanced, noinput, nooutput, iter_noinput; 21:30:43 balanced = noinput = nooutput = iter_noinput = false; 21:30:47 is that bad coding style? :D 21:31:46 AnMaster: not IMO 21:31:57 ais523, hehe 21:32:00 well I guess not 21:32:05 although on an embedded system, you could save 3 bytes of memory by making them bitfields in a struct 21:32:26 and it'll be faster that way on most such systems as they have bit-test instructions, they can handle bits faster than entire ints 21:32:32 OTOH, most RL processors will prefer ints 21:34:31 ais523, they are in a struct 21:34:46 just I need to track them in the function 21:34:52 where I work on loops 21:34:58 later I put it in the struct 21:35:00 also I typoed 21:35:03 it should have been: 21:35:11 ssize_t balance = 0; 21:35:11 bool noinput, nooutput, iter_noinput; 21:35:11 noinput = nooutput = iter_noinput = true; 21:52:33 -!- ehird has joined. 21:53:06 http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/decimal-counter-uncommented.pfk 21:53:08 pgimeno is WIN 21:53:17 hehe 21:53:50 I liked the idea of "OCRing" 21:54:06 pgimeno, hm? 21:54:24 how does it OCR so quickly? 21:54:44 I found a bit pattern that worked for all numbers 21:54:48 see the commented version 21:54:56 http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/decimal-counter.pfk 21:55:03 haha, that's great 21:55:14 chained IFs except for distinguishing 0 from blank 21:55:16 i really like the logistical constraints paintfuck givse 21:55:21 your output IS your memory, it's just such a nice idea 21:55:49 someone should make a version of PaintFuck where the source code is stored on the 2D tape, too 21:55:55 and is self-modifying 21:55:55 ais523: heh 21:56:40 it's nice as it is 21:56:52 pgimeno: wht happens when it reaches its own start? 21:56:53 fixed a repeated comment in the commented version, reload 21:56:55 does it just implode? 21:57:02 weave.rb reflective via braintwist's X swapper now 21:57:06 it'd be infeasable to wait that long ofc :P 21:57:11 ehird: dunno, try a smaller grid, it's designed for infinite grid 21:58:51 yep 21:58:53 ti messes up 21:59:04 well 21:59:09 it doesn't wrap 21:59:11 it starts counting the wrong digit 21:59:16 while making up its own digits :P 21:59:18 so it works on infinite grid 21:59:22 yes 21:59:45 yes, it increments by knowing which bits to change, if the number is not the expected it breaks 21:59:53 yeah 21:59:56 gtg 22:00:00 bye 22:00:01 -!- ehird has left (?). 22:00:04 -!- ehird has joined. 22:02:21 -!- ehird has left (?). 22:02:24 -!- ehird has joined. 22:02:29 hey ok 22:02:31 ok 22:02:33 where is oklopol 22:02:37 -!- ehird has left (?). 22:02:40 -!- ehird has joined. 22:02:43 -!- ehird has left (?). 22:02:46 -!- ehird has joined. 22:02:57 -!- ehird has left (?). 22:06:07 * oklopol has quit (Connection reset by peer) 22:06:13 not that you will see it anyway 22:09:13 ais523, there? 22:09:18 no 22:09:19 see /msg 22:09:23 well, maybe 22:09:27 I didn't get a /msg from you 22:09:39 oh, you warn me about /msg /before/ you say it? 22:16:17 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 22:19:20 ais523, yes I do 22:19:50 why? 22:20:04 just interested 22:24:22 -!- oklopol has joined. 22:24:54 ais523, why not? 22:25:11 because it spams the rest of the channel for no obvious reason 22:25:17 hm ok 22:25:18 good reason 22:25:25 if something's the sort of private thing that goes in /msg, why tell everyone else about it? 22:26:03 true 22:26:06 it was just spamming 22:26:09 spammy* 22:26:14 and didn't want to open pastebin 22:26:20 why refer to the past just as i join. 22:26:29 now i have to open logz 22:26:52 oklopol: we were discussing why AnMaster warns people they're about to get a /msg before e /msgs them 22:26:52 ais523, oh also how would you transfer a balanced loop to a polynom? 22:27:03 AnMaster: using algebra 22:27:09 the balanced loop runs the number of times of the first arg 22:27:21 -!- lostgeek has quit ("leaving"). 22:27:25 so you take the first arg, and multiply it by all increments inside the loop 22:27:43 so [->+<] is tape[0] times tape[1]++ or tape[1]+=tape[0] 22:27:45 polynoms, isn't that 4 + 2a + 1b^2 + 3c^3 = 0 22:27:46 -!- ehird has joined. 22:27:48 AnMaster: yes 22:27:51 ais523, right 22:28:08 so it goes from +1 to +x, effectively 22:28:14 with another nested loop, it can be +x^2 22:28:16 ais523, that require balanced "no-io" loops 22:28:20 yes 22:28:26 right 22:28:57 he probably warns you so you can say no if you're naked and don't want to see or something, kinda like a doorbell. 22:29:04 *want him to 22:29:12 dunno, just a guess 22:29:16 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 22:29:32 oklopol: /msg doesn't work like that, though, does it? 22:29:32 oklopol, err, irc is text only 22:29:40 more to the point, it's the other way round 22:29:49 also /msg is just the same as channel messages 22:30:04 PRIVMSG #channel 22:30:06 PRIVMSG nick 22:30:07 I suppose that if AnMaster warned me that he was about to send me an ASCII art goatse, a warning would give me time to ignore him 22:30:08 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:30:09 no difference 22:30:09 ais523: good point 22:30:12 but why would he do that? 22:30:14 AnMaster: bad point 22:30:21 oklopol, ? 22:30:31 they are both the same on protocol level 22:30:32 AnMaster: as opposed to ais523's 22:30:52 AnMaster: correct but not very relevant point, I think oklopol meant 22:30:57 >> :ais523!n=ais523@eso-std.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :+AnMaster: correct but not very relevant point, I think oklopol meant 22:31:00 what i meant is 22:31:06 freenode adds the + 22:31:21 what ais523 said i didn't think about, what AnMaster said was a trivial fact i didn't consider worth mentioning 22:31:41 oklopol, ah 22:32:07 -!- Corun has joined. 22:32:09 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 22:32:16 hi Corun 22:32:24 MOOOEEEEEEEEP 22:32:28 :DDD 22:32:35 yes i see you're in a goody moody! 22:33:29 actually... really had nothing to do with triviality, it's just what AnMaster said escaped the analogy, making it kinda pointless as what i said was just a joke 22:33:49 while ais523 attacked the analogy, which is relevant even if it's a joke 22:33:52 well true 22:34:29 * AnMaster ponders referring to the future just as oklopol will part 22:34:39 AnMaster: that's deep 22:34:43 hehe 22:34:48 that is the opposite of talking about the past forcing you to read logs 22:34:48 wait 22:35:00 just as i part or just before it 22:35:06 i'm really slow today... 22:35:14 ah 22:35:15 ofc 22:35:20 just as i'm about to leave 22:35:21 you say 22:35:42 "ais523, so wanna talk about this interesting thing?", and ais523 responds, umm, "yes" 22:35:47 that's it raelly 22:35:57 oklopol, just before 22:35:58 *ruylla 22:36:05 yes i raelized 22:36:07 ... 22:36:14 oklopol, yes or maybe about what we will say 22:36:17 *roalezud 22:36:17 in some detail 22:36:26 like. "will you mean that a == b"? 22:36:30 err 22:36:31 whatever 22:36:38 well actually you'd have to refer to it, that'd be more complicated 22:36:50 yeah 22:36:53 in detail, that's the point 22:37:06 fascinating issues, these 22:37:33 oklopol: what's with your typo corrections? 22:37:41 ais523, why not? 22:37:41 because it spams the rest of the channel for no obvious reason 22:37:41 hm ok 22:37:41 good reason 22:37:47 make that future tense 22:37:50 or whatever the word is 22:38:10 AnMaster: that would somehow connect oklopol around into a loop, though, wouldn't it? 22:38:21 ais523, well just as an example 22:38:47 ais523, why will you not? 22:39:00 ? 22:39:04 because it will spam the rest of the channel for no (currently) obvious reason 22:39:08 hm ok 22:39:14 will be good reason 22:39:17 ah 22:39:19 um... 22:39:20 ais523, just tried to make it future 22:39:22 that's ridiculous 22:39:23 didn't work 22:39:25 ais523, yeah 22:39:30 that doesn't work for that example 22:39:37 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 22:39:43 ais523: my typo corrections got tired of having to exist so often. 22:39:49 so they committed suicide. 22:39:55 in that case, probably using the present would be more idiomatic even if you're talking about the future 22:40:23 "why won't you?" "because it will spam the rest of the channel" "hmm... ok; that's a good reason" 22:40:28 but the last there is true present 22:40:33 why correct when you can type with your eyes ckised? 22:40:50 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 22:40:51 let me try that 22:41:02 i never look at my fingers 22:41:11 why cprrecy wjem ypi cam type with your ues c;psed? 22:41:16 it's a fun thing to try but not with a lump in your eye >_> <-- did it 22:41:23 wow, the result of that actually came out readable 22:41:36 I even got 3 words in a row right 22:41:51 took me a few seconds to find home row, then I typed it all quite quickly 22:41:51 occasionally it goes completely awol 22:42:19 enjoy coca cola. but enjot brainfuck even more. 22:42:23 if you use a sensible system, there's no difference whether they're open or not 22:42:29 anyways... 22:42:38 hah 22:42:47 ais523, ok 22:46:25 ais523, exactly how were you typing? 22:46:29 to be or not to be 22:46:35 if it was closed eyes 22:46:37 AnMaster: with my eyes shut 22:46:38 that worked perfectly 22:46:44 thisworks ok 22:46:47 well almost 22:46:49 heh 22:46:53 * AnMaster tries again, ok? 22:46:58 even using the bumps on f and j to find the home row 22:46:59 ais523, that wasn't hard 22:47:30 one of the garbles was because I forgot the bump was on j not h, normally I hover my fingers over f and h because I rarely type ; 22:49:34 i don't make any more mistakes with my eyes closed, i would never click enter before checking i typed it right though 22:49:54 ais523, err 22:49:59 I don't need that 22:50:23 I know the keyboard well enough 22:54:28 as soon as I find space, shit or enter 22:55:16 * AnMaster could probably use "das keyboard" if only it had Swedish keyboard layout 22:55:19 that is same size of enter 22:55:54 oh 22:55:57 "shift" 22:56:16 "shit" doesn't sound very AnMastery. 22:56:38 i, on the other hand, can find shit pretty well on my keyboard 22:57:24 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:57:33 oklopol, ah typoed 22:58:07 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 22:58:09 well the keyboard does in cleaning 22:59:34 i recently found a keyboard on teh nets that had the keys in straight columns instead of diagonally randomized 22:59:45 but that was costy, and i have a laptop 22:59:55 but that might be pretty awesome 23:01:59 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p333662665.txt Paintfuck decimal counter :) 23:02:33 oklopol, hm 23:03:02 MizardX, didn't someone else here also make one 23:03:06 pgimeno, iirc? 23:03:13 Just saw 23:03:26 MizardX, why did you want to make a decimal counter? 23:04:10 I saw a few hours ago that someone mentioned it. Thought it could be fun for a first paintfuck program. :) 23:04:59 That reminds me of a telemarketer that called my wife and tried to sell some magazine. When she said "no", the telemarketer said she needs to justify why she didn't want to order it. The implication was that if the reasons aren't good enough, she doesn't get to not order it. 23:05:23 fizzie, err that wouldn't be legal 23:07:52 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:08:14 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 23:08:43 -!- decipher has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:10:43 fizzie: well what happened, were the reasons good enough? 23:11:30 MizardX: haha that's pretty great 23:12:34 ais523, err an issue 23:12:41 about that "until no changes" 23:12:44 when optimising 23:12:54 I change in place so I can't compare tree after 23:12:57 hm wait 23:12:58 right 23:12:59 duh 23:13:08 I could pass a flag if anything was changed 23:14:06 -!- decipher has joined. 23:28:31 MizardX: when the counter overflows, does it output "counter overflow, try increasing screen width", and you've hidden that in the code so that an average human brain cannot find that in teh code? 23:28:55 no 23:29:05 what does it output then? 23:31:08 WHAT, it just spouts random garble! 23:31:09 If the screen width is a multiple of four, the (w/4+1)'th digit would increase the ones, and it would continue counting. If the screen width is not a multiple of four, the result is undefined. 23:31:15 * oklopol is very disappointed! 23:34:16 -!- Corun has joined. 23:34:26 MizardX: great! seems that yours is more homogeneous than mine timing-wise 23:35:33 oklopol: 23:35:36 a 23:35:36 b 23:35:37 c 23:35:42 ehird: d 23:35:44 also 23:35:51 mizardx 23:35:52 which should be no surprise given the nested ifs I use 23:35:53 you were beaten 23:36:04 MizardX: 23:36:05 http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/decimal-counter-uncommented.pfk 23:36:06 http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/decimal-counter.pfk 23:36:17 ehird: I think he knows 23:36:20 oh 23:36:24 well pgimeno's digits are more readable 23:36:25 :P 23:36:57 It's just a design issue 23:36:59 but slower on average 23:37:06 umm 23:37:09 pgimeno's seems to be faster 23:37:09 to me 23:37:13 well 23:37:14 maybe not 23:37:15 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:38:22 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 23:38:46 it may depend on the interpreter, if a certain kind of instructions are not the same speed 23:39:54 now someone make a library for simplifying equations expressed as drawn digits & operators 23:40:03 & vars 23:40:12 simplifying equations? 23:40:18 well anyway, something sensible ;) 23:40:31 -!- Judofyr has quit. 23:47:18 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:47:41 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 23:54:17 -!- jix_ has quit ("..."). 2008-12-02: 00:03:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("I'm a thaasophobic."). 00:08:42 pgimeno: i'm gonna make a counter that outputs in binary 00:08:43 :o 00:09:06 ehird: cool, go ahead 00:09:59 hmm 00:10:03 which is kinda hard. 00:11:32 ehird: do you mean dec-to-bin? 00:12:01 JUST 00:12:05 err 00:12:05 just 00:12:09 a counter that goes like this 00:12:12 .................... 00:12:14 ...................* 00:12:17 ..................*. 00:12:18 ..................** 00:12:22 .................*.. 00:12:24 .................*.* 00:12:27 .................**. 00:12:28 enough :) 00:12:28 .................*** 00:12:30 etc 00:12:31 :P 00:12:35 wait 00:12:39 isn't that already done? 00:12:50 it is but you can try for yourself 00:13:09 that's why I asked if you were going to implement a dec-to-bin 00:16:21 it would be funny to see division&remainder code... 00:16:43 actually just multiply-by-ten 00:18:16 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:18:18 anyway, I might either implement Fredkin's automaton or just give up on 00:18:20 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:18:38 + paintfuck programming 00:20:02 yeah maybe someone should make underpaint next. 00:20:10 take one down and pass it around, 00:20:10 You are in a small hut by a dirt road. 00:20:10 75 bottles of beer on the wall! 00:20:13 pgimeno: why? :( it's fun 00:20:35 ehird: it takes too many resources 00:20:40 -!- decipher has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:20:41 true :P 00:21:15 I mean in brain CPU %, not in computer CPU % 00:21:32 yeah 00:21:34 :) 00:23:09 -!- decipher has joined. 00:27:48 o 00:43:08 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 00:54:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:58:49 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:58:54 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:02:48 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:03:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:21:49 thread[:jumps] = Hash.new if $jumpfuck 01:25:13 ooooo 01:27:42 have a kitchen sink i can cram into this thing? 01:35:02 you can't have a sink without a source 01:35:08 except if it's a circulation 01:35:17 but even then it's not satisfiable 01:35:40 hehe, ackermann as type templates as a c++ exercise 01:35:42 for uni 01:36:45 wait, no it's not that, i'm dissappointed :< 01:37:51 C++ templates have a limited stack depth. Was it 7, 17, 27 or 127...? I can't remember. 01:38:18 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:38:46 sure. 01:39:09 But if you implement your own stack with e.g. a linked list, you could stay within the stack limit. 01:39:11 i'd go with 16, but anyway 01:39:28 (if it was 16, i would probably remember it, though) 01:39:39 yes, sure, but that's so cheating 01:40:17 Yeah, I think it's 17, but nobody actually enforces it, it's usually much higher. 01:40:45 -!- Corun has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:40:59 -!- Corun has joined. 01:45:24 * oklopol is a supporter of 0/1/inf 01:46:59 likewise 01:47:07 nan? 01:47:25 although in C++'s case, things are already difficult enough for implementors :) 01:48:07 MizardX: i definitely do not like any kinds of exceptions. 01:48:15 exceptions are exceptional, i only case about the general 01:48:38 (there are exceptions to that, but oerjan would probably emerge from somewhere and make a pun) 01:48:43 (so i'll keep quiet) 01:53:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("I'm a thaasophobic."). 02:13:40 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 02:15:22 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:43:21 strcpy works perfectly. Except when it's run by nethack, which magically makes it not work. 02:46:27 what does it do instead? 02:47:02 Fail in obscure ways. 02:47:12 It sorta-kinda copies. 02:47:21 With random chunks of the strings fegged up. 03:05:40 ..why? 03:36:13 so an idea is 03:36:35 using the shared tape of weave.rb 03:36:48 certain programs could monitor certain spots 03:36:59 analogous to /etc/service port assignments 03:37:28 so any other thread could load subroutines on deman 03:37:32 d 03:37:50 nobody wants this, why am i compelled to connect this to an irc bot? 04:04:56 Aha! Figured out the problem with strcpy on nethack! 04:05:06 Now I just need to figure out the solution X-P 04:06:18 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 04:11:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:23:09 Shall I pick a character's racÿ, role, genþer and aliîmet foz(yoÿ [ÿnq]þ 04:23:12 Well that's just not right. 04:26:39 ÿþîÿÿþ are all close to 255 (in unicode, anyway) 04:26:49 which is also odd 04:27:14 not to mention, how did alignment lose a character? 04:40:39 What's even stranger is that neither that string nor the (presumable) original string appear anywhere in the nethack dir D-8 04:45:58 -!- jayCampbell has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Shall I pick a character's racA?, role, genA3er and aliARmet foz(yoA?. 05:03:00 Note to self: MIPS' swl and swr instructions are SO EFFING CONFUSING 05:09:43 swill and sewer 05:28:25 DAMN YOU MIPS UNALIGNED MEMORY ACCESS INSTRUCTIONS 05:28:35 Bane of my existence. 05:36:55 Whootsynth! 05:39:41 OH BLOODY EFFING DEATH 05:40:08 Nethack writes out its data in the host's endian format X_X 05:40:16 Erm, the COMPILING host that is. 05:40:20 I have to compile this on a big-endian machine. 05:40:25 Piece o' crap. 05:48:11 :( 05:48:34 time to get gcc working on mips :D 05:50:55 * GregorR is debootstrapping a mips system now 8-D 06:15:44 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 06:17:23 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 06:57:36 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:57:40 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:10:30 for jsmips? :D 07:22:34 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:38:55 oklopol: generally speaking exceptions are exceptional, except in exceptional cases where the general case does not hold 07:48:32 * jayCampbell revives EsoAPI 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:07:42 morning 08:12:57 evening 08:13:11 did the world even know it needed a brainfuck with embedded ruby interpreter? 08:14:15 debug breakpoint dumps are soooo last century 08:21:35 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 08:23:06 >+++++++++++++++++++++++ # ruby print "hi " 08:23:06 ++++++++++++++++++++++++ # ruby print "there\n" 08:23:06 ++++++++++++++++++++++++< # ruby7 puts "tape size: #{thread[:tape].size}" 08:23:06 >>++++++++++<< .>>.<< >..........< .>>.<< 08:23:06 >>+++++++<< .>>.<< >>-------<< .>>.<< 08:23:17 ./weave.rb -R rubytest.b -E 08:23:17 hi there 08:23:17 GGGGGGGGGGhi there 08:23:17 tape size: 3 08:23:17 hi there 08:24:01 ruby via EsoAPI calls above number 9 08:24:30 in all seriousness, please, someone stop me 08:36:09 hello mister silly-bob 08:39:14 * oklopol realizes he's already taken the best courses @ uni, will be a downslope in funnity from this point on :< 08:40:41 hmm right, there's math department... 08:47:12 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 08:54:29 -!- ineiros has joined. 09:30:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("I'm a thaasophobic."). 10:01:38 -!- Judofyr has joined. 10:45:49 oklopol: Me too. Sad feeling. 11:23:09 Not me :D 11:23:22 I get quantum electrodynamic next year :D 11:23:27 Also general relativity :D 11:23:32 Quantum chromodynamics! 11:23:35 Yaaaaay! 11:23:38 Hurray me! 11:23:50 Sucks to be you :D 11:31:01 -!- moozilla has joined. 11:41:25 -!- at_deckards_hous has joined. 11:41:25 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:41:35 -!- at_deckards_hous has changed nick to moozilla. 11:45:03 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:49:29 -!- Corun has joined. 11:52:47 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 12:08:02 Slereah_: You'll get there... 12:09:00 OR WILL I? 12:09:10 I mean, I don't really have classes after next year. 12:09:17 After that it's my thesis and shit 12:21:32 I don't want to study anything in particular at college. 12:24:05 The stereotypical make-a-lot-of-money profession seems to be a lawyer. 12:27:33 Can you be a lawyer with a degree in nothing-in-particular? 12:29:52 I think so. 12:30:25 You go to college, get a degree in nothing-in-particular, and take that to law school. 12:31:27 Oh, so you need a degree for a degree? 12:31:50 I'm glad I'm getting physics :o 12:31:54 Something like that, yeah. 12:32:08 Did you even look at law or medicine? 12:32:21 Why would I? 12:32:29 I wanted to do that shit since I was 9! 12:35:11 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:53:53 -!- GregorR has joined. 13:12:03 -!- moozilla has joined. 13:12:07 GregorR: so your cross-compiler doesn't deal with big-endianess? that's weird 13:12:25 pgimeno: Nononono, that's not the problem at all. 13:12:45 oh, that's what I understood 13:12:53 pgimeno: The problem is that it generates data files using a program for the compiling system. 13:13:16 oh, so you need to generate the data files in the emulator, right? 13:13:30 Egg-zactly. 13:13:38 'k 13:25:58 -!- Azstal has joined. 13:26:05 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:31:26 -!- Asztal^_^ has joined. 13:32:13 -!- Asztal^_^ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:32:39 -!- Asztal^_^ has joined. 13:41:31 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:50:35 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:10:04 Slereah_: I wanted to do that shit since I was 9! <<< i decided i wanted to be a programmer when i was 5 14:10:40 although i guess i've slowly inclined towards math / theoretical algorithmics since, but probably only because i didn't know much about things back then. 14:10:46 need to leave ----> 14:27:11 I think I got interested in programming around 7-8 years old. A friend showed some graphics in QBasic. Could have been earlier, but I don't remember much from that time. 14:43:47 Around 8 for me I think, maybe a little earlier or later. 14:43:51 I got my first computer at 3. :-P 14:46:04 -!- Judofyr has quit. 14:46:47 hi ju 14:46:50 hi Jud 14:46:55 fucking tab complete 14:48:08 -!- moozilla has joined. 14:55:33 -!- at_deckards_hous has joined. 14:55:33 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:55:41 -!- at_deckards_hous has changed nick to moozilla. 14:58:09 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:58:15 -!- moozilla has joined. 15:12:40 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:10:57 is User:Mattwescott here? 16:15:13 dunno. 16:15:25 most newbz don't come here, is he a newb? 16:15:33 i see no User:Mattwescott 16:15:35 on the esolang wiki 16:16:15 ehird: I saw it on Special:Recentchanges 16:16:18 *him 16:16:31 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges I don't. 16:16:35 oh 16:16:39 mattwesTcott 16:16:44 err, misspelled: User:Mattwestcott 16:16:45 then no 16:16:47 i don't think so 16:16:57 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Nil a joke language. neat. 16:17:01 16:17:50 just too easy the humour, but the interpreter is a bit more elaborate than that 16:18:24 umm, true(1) is not very elaborate 16:18:31 unless you mean GNU true :-P 16:18:49 no, I mean the JS interpreter 16:18:57 ah 16:19:10 * ehird reads. 16:19:12 heh. 16:29:52 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:20:28 ^bf ++++++++++ 17:20:31 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:20:32 ^bf ++++++++++. 17:20:33 . 17:20:35 hrrm 17:21:48 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:33:31 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:38:36 -!- Asztal^_^ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:11:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:26:19 cc1: out of memory allocating 33554432 bytes after a total of 20123648 bytes 18:26:20 wow 18:26:53 AnMaster: what were you doing? 18:27:00 to make gcc run out of memory so dramatically? 18:27:04 ais523, trying to compile lost kingdom 18:27:14 since I do the "turn into polynom" bit now 18:27:20 ( ulimit -v $((1024 * 800)); gcc -O0 -o LostKng LostKng.c; ) 18:27:20 cc1: out of memory allocating 134217728 bytes after a total of 20148224 bytes 18:27:35 maybe splitting it into multiple methods would work 18:27:53 but that would be tricky due to loops and such 18:27:54 AnMaster: do the same trick I did for OIL, split the function into separate functions in separate source files, then compile them separately 18:28:15 I learnt that tip from the Debian developers who were trying to port C-INTERCAL, apparently it's happened to them before on other projects 18:28:18 I fixed the problem referred to in the topic btw :P 18:28:31 ais523, not easy since it would most of the time need to split across two different while loops 18:28:33 or such 18:28:40 AnMaster: split the loop into a separate function 18:28:45 hm 18:28:48 and have it called by the other one 18:28:51 ais523, need to know how big it is 18:28:56 which I don't most of the time 18:29:01 AnMaster: good thing computers are good at counting, then 18:29:08 Hah 18:29:15 you're generating the code, no reason you can't count lines in your generated code 18:29:20 ais523, yeah need to run O(n) search on every tree or something 18:29:31 AnMaster: that's in the compile, it's O(n), do you really care? 18:29:38 hm 18:29:45 or are you trying to make the compiler insanely fast too 18:29:55 ais523, it is currently rather fast 18:29:58 but true 18:30:06 Actually, that would be O(n^2) as there are O(n) many nodes, each of which may contain O(n) many nodes. 18:30:26 (Assuming you have to do the search for O(n) many nodes) 18:30:26 GregorR: no, just maintain a stack of subtotals and you can do it in one pass 18:30:27 GregorR, each [ cause a subtree 18:30:31 it is like a linked list 18:30:35 with down nodes for [ 18:30:45 that is the internal format at that point 18:30:48 you can use the totals for the lower levels when calculating the totals from the upper levels 18:30:51 ais523: But doing it the stupid naïve way is more fun D-8 18:31:23 I guess that I could create some kind of weight count in a pass after the optimizer 18:31:24 or such 18:31:39 and add yet another field to the nodes 18:31:56 AnMaster: you're saying this as if it's a bad thing 18:32:12 ais523, since each node is 88 bytes on x86_64 it isn't totally small 18:32:19 I do use union tricks and so on already yes 18:32:25 why use union tricks? 18:32:43 ais523, why would I need loop specific data for > or > specific data for loops? 18:32:43 extreme memory optimisation in the compiler isn't going to gain you anything in execution speed 18:32:58 ais523, true, I just don't want to run out in the compiler either 18:32:59 AnMaster: you don't, not using union tricks therefore makes it easier to debug 18:33:18 AnMaster: your compiler's already more memory-efficient than gcc 18:33:23 ais523, I haven't had any such bugs yet at least. 18:33:24 therefore making it more memory-efficient is irrelevant 18:33:35 as you're going to be using more memory later in the process anyway 18:34:06 ais523, true, but the issue is that likely the libc won't give the now freed ram back 18:34:17 AnMaster: it will when the program ends! 18:34:32 ais523, yes but I can system() to invoke cc, like ick does 18:36:29 also I need to add a generic reorder pass that can move stuff around, current code can only do that in simple balanced loops 18:36:32 ais523, that reminds me 18:36:46 how does one turn this into a polynomial: 18:36:53 [>+++<--] 18:37:11 my current code only handles a +1/-1 atm 18:37:14 AnMaster: if it's even, that's +1.5x. If it's odd, infinite loop 18:37:26 you need to condition on each possible value of the input modulo the number of -s 18:37:36 ais523, hm 18:37:52 easier said than done with current design 18:38:05 I wouldn't be surprised if gcc was cleaner than this 18:38:14 on the other hand I never coded anything like this before 18:38:25 usually only one value will _not_ be an infinite loop, i think... 18:38:26 probably something for tdwtf 18:38:51 ais523, consider: +++[>+++<--] 18:38:56 as the full program 18:38:56 oerjan: no, it's just evenness/divisibility by 4/divisibility by 8, etc 18:39:05 ais523, that will wrap once 18:39:09 as 256 is a power of 2 18:39:14 AnMaster: that will wrap forevor 18:39:16 ais523, err 255 18:39:19 ais523: one modulus value, i mean 18:39:29 er remainder value 18:39:31 ^bf +++[>+++<--] ++++++. 18:39:36 hm ok 18:39:36 ...out of time! 18:39:37 true 18:39:43 oerjan: if the modulus is odd, then it'll wrap n times and then finish 18:39:52 ^bf ++[>+++<--] ++++++. 18:39:53 due to odd numbers not dividing into 256 18:40:01 fungot, ? 18:40:02 AnMaster: not at all, don't let the bed bugs byte)." what kinda procedure could that be because of extensions too. 18:40:05 wtf 18:40:08 ^bf ++[>+++<--] +++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 18:40:15 that was odd 18:40:28 yep 18:40:44 ^bf ++[>+++<--]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 18:40:44 = 18:40:48 ^bf ++[>+++<--] +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 18:40:49 = 18:40:51 hm 18:40:55 ok 18:40:57 very strange 18:41:06 AnMaster: maybe you got it to ouptut a space 18:41:14 who knows, you might have hit exactly the right number of + 18:41:21 ais523, I tried with two values 18:41:25 ^bf +++[>+++<--] ++++++. 18:41:27 ^bf ++[>+++<--] +++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 18:41:32 ais523: odd modulus is thus uninteresting 18:41:34 ^bf ++[>+++<--] +++++++++. 18:41:34 18:41:37 ^bf ++[>+++<--] ++++++. 18:41:38 AnMaster: the first one is an infiniloop 18:41:49 ais523, and the two last ones? 18:41:54 ^bf ++[>+++<--] +. 18:41:54 18:42:01 ouch 18:42:02 ^bf ++[>+++<--] ++. 18:42:10 hm 18:42:15 ok strange 18:42:54 ais523, in any case this should really be done with something like oil for bf, it is a pain to write it in C 18:43:14 also nested loops mess it up a lot 18:43:29 AnMaster: the Brainfuck Constants page on the wiki contains many examples of such loops 18:43:49 oerjan, yes nested loops are important I know 18:43:59 the issue is, they don't yet work 18:44:15 AnMaster: i wasn't responding to your comment 18:44:17 for example if the nested loop change the index, not very easy to detect always 18:44:29 or rather quite a pain 18:44:32 i was speaking about the loops you tested above 18:44:47 oerjan, hm? 18:45:09 [>+++etc<---etc] loops 18:45:21 ah right 18:45:47 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 18:46:29 i imagine unbalanced loops are almost impossible to optimize unless you have meta-information about memory contents 18:47:10 oerjan: yes, I have a crazy plan to deduce the meta-information 18:47:29 O_O 18:55:15 so, anyone here know a nice program for composing stuff? 18:55:33 i've used guitar pro, but it's total crap so was just thinking 18:55:33 oklopol: you mean like music? 18:55:35 yes 18:55:45 someone invite lament here 18:56:02 i'll try his pm, he'll be sooooo surprised 18:56:29 oklopol: I've used Rosegarden, it's pretty good for writing down tunes you've composed elsewhere 18:56:36 which is what I normally do 18:57:30 hmm, rosegarden. 18:57:34 i've heard about that 18:57:45 lament is on freenode but not on this channel? did we scare him away? :( 18:58:14 oklopol: obviously we cannot promise you that 18:58:15 what i'd really like is a sensible electric guitar sound for this project. 18:58:15 does anyone have a copy of brainfuck OS? 18:58:32 the googles fail me 18:59:00 ais523, mandelbrot is down to 7.3 seconds 18:59:11 there is of course a lot more that could be done 18:59:31 oerjan: he's always on freenode, but rarely here 19:00:15 has anyone here used bf-os? 19:00:32 guitar pro has a pretty cool bug if you try adding a ninth track, pans of tracks 8 and 9 can't be made different :D 19:00:51 i really can't imagine how there could be a bug that only appears on a certain track 19:01:07 is it open source? 19:01:15 if not: no clue, if yes, look at the source 19:01:39 oklopol: I've used Rosegarden, it's pretty good for writing down tunes you've composed elsewhere 19:01:39 which is what I normally do 19:01:41 indeed 19:01:45 I have used it too 19:01:46 very nice 19:03:01 um, look at the source why exactly? 19:03:03 hm considering the name contains "pro" it is probably *not* open source 19:03:12 oklopol, of the program with the bug 19:04:38 yeah it's not os 19:31:35 jayCampbell: No, but I've been tempted to write one from time to time... 19:31:47 (Def-BF would actually work *well* for that...) 19:33:19 do you know the spec? 19:33:36 Don't happen to have the details handy... 19:33:36 i have a framework 19:33:43 One could ask RodgerTheGreat for it. 19:34:52 wanna help write brainfucklets that interact? 19:38:05 basically comes down to deciding what functions map to what cell addresses or EsoAPI slot 19:39:38 * oerjan thinks that sounds like something that would be illegal in most countries 19:39:54 Def-BF != EsoAPI or PSOX or whatever you're wanting to do... 19:40:11 Def-BF is basically Brainfuck + labels & jump. 19:40:27 jayCampbell, EsoAPI is dead. Long live PSOX, which is dead! 19:40:49 Which matches *very* cleanly to assembly, and makes for a really nice systems programming language. 19:40:56 i put esoapi and jumpfuck into weave.rb 19:41:00 so it's very much alive 19:41:07 psox i couldn't find a speck of info about either 19:41:29 http://esolangs.org/wiki/PSOX 19:41:41 lol, psox 19:41:43 jayCampbell: ignore Sgeo 19:41:46 PSOX is his vaporware 19:41:48 And if you need more info than what you can find in http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk , ask me 19:41:48 and is awfully dseigned 19:41:51 although esoapi is awful too 19:41:53 ehird, it's NOT vaporware 19:41:54 http://lwn.net/Articles/104185/ 19:41:56 where is def-bf 19:42:00 Sgeo: just keep telling yourself that 19:42:09 sgeo send me your spec? 19:42:17 ehird, if you want me to finish it up and call it a beta, I'll do that 19:42:29 Sgeo: no, I'd rather you never mentioned it again 19:42:31 lest I commit suicide :D 19:42:33 jayCampbell, http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk/spec 19:42:41 jayCampbell: turn back 19:42:41 ehird, jayCampbell's the one asking about it 19:42:44 turn back while you still have your insanity 19:42:56 ehird: I'd hesitate to call PSOX vaporware... 19:43:03 Sgeo *did* actually get it implemented. 19:43:05 pikhq: ok, more like HORRORWARE 19:43:09 Better. 19:43:17 -!- nooga has joined. 19:43:19 aaaaaaaaaaaaah 19:43:21 i forgot C 19:43:23 jesus f 19:43:44 Though it wasn't necessarily *bad* for the most part; just poor choices on some details, really. 19:43:50 What details? 19:43:52 pikhq: details such as EVERYTHING 19:43:52 >_< 19:43:54 Not bad for a hack. 19:44:05 Sgeo: The type system, IMHO. 19:44:13 wtf is that scanf("%s") returns "" after scanf("%c") 19:44:20 Sgeo: DON'T FORGET SAFETY 19:44:45 ehird, safety's kind of dead, thanks to you 19:44:56 Well, deader than PSOX itself, at any rate 19:45:55 psox isn't impossible 19:46:20 psox is more awful than impossible 19:46:22 it's a little more .. robust than i expected 19:58:04 nooga: what text are you trying to read? 20:21:44 http://blog.wolfram.com/2008/12/01/the-incredible-convenience-of-mathematica-image-processing/ wish there was like a mathematica thta didn't suck 20:30:55 wow, that's pretty neat 20:31:54 woah http://smoaktalk.com/st/071808/ 20:32:07 oklopol thinks its neat, wow 20:32:08 it must be really neat 20:32:14 jayCampbell: neat 20:32:17 i saw a smalltalk in JS before 20:32:21 vista smalltalk it was called iirc 20:32:26 had a lisp-based syntax for core stuff 20:32:40 ehird: what's sucky about that? 20:32:46 oklopol: ? 20:32:49 oh 20:32:51 just mathematica in general? 20:32:56 ask ais523, I've heard horror stories from him 20:32:59 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:33:34 oh, you didn't meant that looked absolutely horrible? 20:33:38 no 20:33:51 i just meant i wish there was a system with stuff that awesome 20:33:53 here's the js one: http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~awarth/ometa/ometa-js/ 20:33:54 that wasn't as sucky as mathemtaica 20:33:57 jayCampbell: no, not ometa 20:34:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vista_Smalltalk huh, it's just for IE7 20:34:13 weird 20:34:16 i mean, i'd probably want the graphs and the pictures to be much smaller, but i'm sure that's possible. 20:34:18 ehird: yeah okay 20:34:22 i misunderstood you then 20:34:33 yeah i know it sucks too, heard the same horror stories. 20:34:52 but that looked pretty neat, in fact looks like something i might scrap python for. 20:35:03 yeah, that totally fits how I program 20:35:09 I just get data and play with it and shove it into other data 20:35:23 * ehird is tempted to write a mathematica minus the stuck now but realises it's probably not easy :P 20:35:49 [[Request a Free Trial » 20:35:50 Send us your request and you can experience Mathematica yourself with a fully functional 15-day license.]] 20:35:53 i hate how you have to manually contact them 20:37:21 mmm, trial licenses in a VM.. 20:37:35 Sgeo: also known as bittorrent? 20:37:48 also, you can't even get a trial license without someone manually respondign to your request 20:38:09 ehird, I was talking in general. Wouldn't work for Mathematica, due to that contact stuff 20:38:18 Sgeo: well... bittorrent 20:38:18 yo. 20:38:58 I wouldn't want to run anything that might even have a risk of malware outside a VM, and if I'm going to be running it in a VM anyway, why even bother with BitTorrent? 20:39:15 Sgeo: Malware? Ah, you must be a windows user! 20:39:21 And use public trackers. 20:41:41 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:41:42 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:45:44 jayCampbell: that smalltalk seems a bit castrated 20:45:46 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:45:48 it seems to have a lot of primitives 20:49:21 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:55:41 -!- nooga_ has joined. 21:00:28 . 21:03:48 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 21:32:13 -!- olsner has joined. 21:34:47 -!- Judofyr has quit. 22:35:43 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:42:15 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 23:01:15 I've decided that a Turing machine's initial state must be the output of a push-down automaton. 23:01:56 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:13:09 this is awesome http://jarrett.cs.ucla.edu/ometa-js/ 23:33:17 -!- Asztal has joined. 23:40:05 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 23:46:28 -!- lament has joined. 23:46:38 i should stop listening to non-solo-piano music. 23:46:56 cause when i do, there's a risk that i will want to play it 23:47:14 and that would involve arranging it, which is not always feasible 23:55:19 What broken LZW algorithm produced that topic? 23:57:40 I want a flash-card-like program that plays notes and asks me to identify them. 23:59:01 i almost wrote that once 23:59:10 you think you have absolute pitch? 23:59:31 <3 Time-loop logic 2008-12-03: 00:00:48 I do think I have absolute pitch. 00:01:13 then just write this program, it's very easy 00:01:18 -!- nooga_ has changed nick to nooga. 00:01:21 Okay. 00:01:22 you can find sources for tone generation 00:01:43 tons of ways to do it, you can be high level and do midi, or low level and do sine waves + sdl 00:01:53 Or use JavaScript and piano sounds. 00:02:00 or that. 00:02:09 a.wav, asharp.wav, b.wav, etc 00:02:10 :D 00:03:27 I could confuse myself by having asharp.wav and bflat.wav as different pitches. 00:03:42 Or I could shut up about alternative tunings. 00:04:51 if you have absolute pitch that can tell A# from Bb 00:05:00 in whatever sane temperament 00:05:11 then you're a fucking genius and should probably work as a piano tuner? 00:05:43 I'm sure distinguishing them is relatively easy in 19-tone equal temperament. 00:08:24 Wait, A# and Bb are different? 00:08:49 In some tunings, yes. 00:09:17 If your piano has only one key between A and B, go ahead and use it for both A# and Bb. 00:10:17 * warrie tries to see if Python can easily do MIDI 00:15:46 does anyone remember the recent tool that generates grammars based on example sources? 00:19:37 never heard of it, but now I want to see it! 00:19:55 warrie: if you want to you can build your own synth system 00:20:06 using an audio device 00:22:29 Sounds easier to use MIDI or something. 00:22:55 get the value of the 12th root of 2 00:23:03 then, 440Hz = A-4 00:23:14 to go up an octave, *2 00:23:24 to go up a semitone, * 12th root of 2 00:23:41 down is just dividing instead of multiplying 00:24:36 * Sgeo wants to transplant a conversation into here 00:26:18 wow. google calculator gave me the answer. 00:26:19 12th root of 2 = 1.05946309 00:26:49 A computer chip that can receive things sent from the future 00:27:09 that would be hot. 00:27:38 char wormhole_recv(char slot) 00:27:50 and wormhole_send(char slot, char data) 00:28:00 as low level functions 00:28:08 This is what I really like about Google Calculator: http://www.google.com/search?q=%281+month+*+1+lunar+month%29%2F%281+month+-+1+lunar+month%29+*+once+in+a+blue+moon 00:29:42 The fact that it defines "once in a blue moon" somehow that should make sense to be from that but doesn't? 00:30:28 Why is a blue moon = (month-lunarmonth) / (month*lunarmonth)? 00:30:52 A blue moon is the second full moon in a calendar month, I believe. 00:33:46 something like that 00:34:07 heh 00:36:13 So, what things can be done on a system like what I described 00:36:25 Future IMs, Perfect Password Cracker 00:37:39 finding out your test results 00:38:06 That would be under Future IM/Email 00:38:37 Evacuations of buildings that could easily give false positives but never false negatives 00:40:43 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:41:52 wormhole_recv: receive a message from the future. wormhole_send: send a message to the past, but doesn't always send what you give it. 00:43:49 MizardX, why would you do that? 00:44:02 easier to implement :) 00:44:09 rofl 00:44:16 any other reason? 00:44:19 no 00:45:02 There's also the Pime Taradox issue: Someone might right a function like this: 00:45:18 wormhole_send(wormhole_recv()+1) 00:45:55 To prevent random lightning strikes as the resolution, the chip should randomly, on wormhole_recv, through some sort of trap or exception like PimeTaradox 00:45:57 I guess it just keeps destroying the universe until it finds a fixed point or something 00:46:06 The possibility of this needs to be controllable, I think 00:48:04 I prefer my model: Assuming I haven't extrapolated too wildly, every quantum circuit has a fixed point. The wormhole gate pretty much just tells you what it is. 00:48:26 That involves quantum compution though 00:48:31 Which is a bit mind-bending 00:48:55 Yes, but once you bend your mind once, it should stay that way. 00:51:37 I think you said my way was more poweful? 00:52:04 * Sgeo doesn't know the limitations or benefits of your quantum system 00:56:10 I think I did say your way was more powerful. 00:56:18 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p342611616.txt ;) 00:56:44 can't you have a hot spare? 00:57:30 warrie: did you write the program yet? 00:58:04 Nope. 00:58:36 MizardX, don't tell me you're actually trying to implement this.. 00:58:39 i wonder if there's any benefit to such a program, though 00:58:48 i.e. whether it would train absolute pitch or not 00:59:13 MizardX randomly takes a number, or receives something from the past 00:59:31 absolute pitch would be ridiculously useful for writing music you hear down 00:59:53 I'm sure it would be as effective as flash cards for anything else. 01:00:00 i'm not. 01:00:19 I mean, not if you don't already have absolute pitch; that seems to be established well enough. 01:00:49 * jayCampbell pitches an absolute fit 01:01:59 ..grr 01:02:13 warrie: if you already have it, what does "training" it do? 01:02:31 * Sgeo wants new OotS 01:02:43 with flashcards, when you're shown an unknown word twice, you might not know the word, but you would be able to tell that it's the same 01:02:58 i'm not sure if "underdeveloped" absolute pitch works like that 01:03:13 * Sgeo abuses his TLL computer to peak at the new OotS 01:03:15 Ooh! 01:03:30 lament: I'm quite familiar with G, having listened to Bach's "Little" Fugue in G minor many times. 01:04:20 oh, that fugue is nice 01:04:27 -!- kt3k has joined. 01:04:53 but if you can remember one note, then you just need to measure the interval from it to the note you hear, which is relative pitch and very easy 01:05:17 But that takes two steps. 01:05:31 but if you heard the same fugue played in f#, would you notice? :) 01:06:28 I imagine so. 01:06:33 nice 01:07:26 i feel kinda dumb not having absolute pitch, so if it can be trained that would be nice 01:08:02 There's a piano at school that seems to be shifted in pitch a bit, though by less than a semitone, I'm guessing. 01:13:44 -!- kt3k has quit ("CHOCOA"). 01:13:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonal_memory 01:13:53 "Tonal memory may be used as a strategy for learning to identify musical tones absolutely. Although those who attempt the strategy believe they are learning absolute pitch, the ability thus learned is generally not musically relevant[3], and their absolute tonal memory declines substantially or completely over time if not constantly reinforced." 01:14:06 i believe that's what the flashcard program would do. 01:14:34 http://www.aruffo.com/eartraining/research/articles/meyer99.htm 01:14:52 although that paper is from 1899 so who knows 01:18:58 damn, so you can't develop absolute pitch if you don't have it :( 01:19:35 and if you know G because you listened to a fugue in G a lot, that would be tonal memory, not absolute pitch 01:21:48 How am I supposed to know if I have absolute pitch or not, then? 01:22:49 absolute pitch means you perceive pitch as one of the characteristics of the note 01:23:06 without any relationship to other notes (including ones you have memorized) 01:24:34 like, blue is blue because it's blue, not because it's different from green in a certain way 01:26:56 well, I don't have absolute colour :( 01:26:57 at least relative pitch can certainly be trained, and it's arguably much more useful 01:27:13 How do you falsify absolute pitch? 01:28:38 good question! 01:29:35 wikipedia gives no hints 01:29:51 other than hypersensitivity to the pitch being correct 01:30:06 i.e. you should notice when a piece is playing in the wrong key 01:30:59 "the tasks of identification (recognizing and naming a pitch) and discrimination (detecting changes or differences in rate of vibration) are accomplished with different brain mechanisms." 01:31:16 does that mean absolute pitch is visible on EEG? 01:32:25 http://www.zainea.com/absolpitch.pdf 01:32:29 Being unable to turn it 01:32:29 off, many possessors of AP perform dramatically poorer at 01:32:30 judging whether a melody and its transposed counterpart 01:32:34 are the same 01:33:28 Does it count if I can remember the key a piece of music is in? 01:33:50 what do you mean? 01:34:04 can you tell the key, by listening to the music? 01:34:53 you don't need perfect pitch for that 01:35:57 jayCampbell: what do you need? 01:36:09 If you played me "Amaranth" on the piano, I could tell you whether it's in the same key as a certain YouTube video of it. 01:38:28 since you have musical training, i think with absolute pitch you ought to guess the note pretty much all of the time 01:38:56 Some people have AP for only a single tone – often their 01:38:56 tuning note – and fail to show the automatic and rapid 01:38:56 identification found in true AP possessors (hence, this is 01:38:56 termed ‘quasi-AP’). They are able to obtain high scores on 01:38:56 standard AP tests by calculating tone names from their 01:38:58 one internal referent. It is only when reaction times are 01:39:01 collected that they can be distinguished from true AP 01:39:03 possessors. 01:39:13 heh! falsifiable via reaction time :) 01:39:54 it's easier for me to recognize or hum an E than other notes 01:40:25 -!- warrie has changed nick to Warrigal. 01:40:27 maybe i'm a quasi, i think i recognize other keys as being shifted from E 01:40:34 There, now G's in my nick. 01:41:05 er, good job 01:42:27 Everybody knows that people with "G" in their nick are substantially cooler than the rest. 01:43:14 Actually, the letter A is what makes a nick cool. 01:43:24 So everybody who's spoken recently except... GregorR, I guess. 01:43:47 You're exempt, though, because Gregor is an actual name. 01:44:09 a's cancel each other out though, having two is like having none. 01:44:45 In that case, I'm also exempt, because "warrigal" is an actual word. 01:44:47 :( 01:45:33 * Sgeo isn't cool? 01:46:39 It's all about pronounceability, or pronuncibility, or whatever that thing's called. 01:47:53 Should I assume your "g" and "e" are pronounced the same way as in your real name? 01:48:14 The "g" in Sgeo is pronounced the opposite from my real name 01:49:02 Is the "e" a short e, a long e, a long a, or something else? 01:49:25 Suh Jee Oh 01:49:43 That makes it a long e. 01:53:17 Well, installing the fancy thingy that's supposed to make Python make noise failed. 01:53:21 You do it, lament. :-P 02:14:51 Another use (of the TLL computer): Instant downloading of any size file 02:17:38 Instant cracking of hashed passwords, although I supposed that's not needed with the Perfect Password Cracker 02:32:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("I'm a thaasophobic."). 02:44:47 -!- at_deckards_hous has joined. 02:46:38 What Perfect Password Cracker? 03:03:53 -!- at_deckards_hous has quit (Connection timed out). 03:41:52 Hrm ... nethack starts, but seems stuck >_> 04:03:51 -!- Asztal has quit ("."). 05:00:49 -!- moozilla has joined. 05:04:18 -!- metazilla has joined. 05:04:19 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:04:42 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:04:54 -!- moozilla has joined. 05:21:46 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:21:56 -!- moozilla has joined. 05:22:47 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:40:32 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit. 06:03:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:22:25 ais523, 06:23:07 i implemented your reversible brainfuck but i have no idea how it attains reversability 06:23:09 -!- Slereah has joined. 06:31:22 ais52, nevermind, it just clicked 06:32:11 that would be a good eso-challenge 06:32:38 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 06:33:41 create a brainfuck program that reverses another program's run 06:50:54 Hrm ... sounds halting-problem-ish. 06:51:24 it's worse 06:51:54 if my program prints integers starting from 0 and going up, should the reversed program print them from infinity going down? 07:24:58 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 07:35:07 -!- Judofyr has joined. 07:46:09 -!- decipher has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:51:33 -!- decipher has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:09:27 ais523 is the one to talk to about proofs 08:11:07 i just flipped a couple lines of code 08:13:16 -!- Judofyr has quit. 08:18:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:44:58 -!- Dewi has quit ("bbl"). 08:45:42 -!- Corun has joined. 08:53:12 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 08:55:54 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:54:52 you don't need absolute pitch for writing anything you hear down 09:55:12 it only helps in that you don't need to hit a random piano key to get the relative in context. 09:55:23 02:04… lament: if you have absolute pitch that can tell A# from Bb <<< A# and Bb aren't different in any sane tuning. 09:56:02 makes no sense to have those two different, they simply have no conceptual difference. 09:57:09 and you definitely shouldn't make a.wav, asharp.wav etc., at least if you press the keys yourself, it's trivial to learn to recognize a certain ".wav", that has nothing to do with recognizing the pitch. 09:57:29 things -> 10:00:57 oklopol: a# and bb are different notes 10:01:11 they just happen to fall on the same pitch in 12-note equal temperament 10:02:16 but a violinist, say, is able to play them more correctly (closer to natural harmonics) 10:03:53 the difference is that a# is the note a fifth up from d#, and bB is the note a fifth down from f 10:04:10 what are their mathematical definitions? i go by 440*2**(n/12) for all purposes 10:04:11 the circle of fifths is actually a straight line of fifths 10:04:35 it goes in the direction of increasing sharps, in the opposite direction of increasing flats 10:04:38 both directions are infinite 10:04:57 oklopol: that _is_ 12 note equal temperament 10:05:18 ohh 10:05:25 yes, okay, now i get it, of course 10:05:30 but with 12 note equal temperament, we turn the straight line into a loop 10:05:39 you mean A# and Bb are different notes in C scale. 10:05:42 yeah, true. 10:05:42 by approximating the true pitches with one of 12 discrete choices 10:06:12 my point was exactly that they aren't different if you consider the whole set of scales. 10:06:29 they're different 10:06:42 they correspond to different frequencies, if you start at C and go up or down in fifths 10:06:52 yeah, and Ab in D scale is different than Ab in C scale 10:07:16 my point is A# and Bb don't have a fundamental difference, except in a certain scale 10:07:24 um 10:07:29 they're completely different notes 10:07:43 in 12-note equal temperament, they happen to fall on the same pitch 10:08:07 i'd like to see the math here. 10:08:22 sure 10:08:27 octaves are powers of two 10:08:58 fifths are powers of ummm 10:09:55 what are they powers of? :) 10:10:11 some rational number, anyway 10:10:24 hmm. i'm not sure you understood i do know A# and Bb are different notes, and that my point was just that they are also another two different notes if you start the scale of fifths from, say, D? 10:10:27 the interval ratio of the note up a fifth from a root note is 3:2 iirc 10:11:20 anyway i'm not interested in getting these ratios right, that's just adding an uninteresting complication to an otherwise nice system. 10:11:55 no, they will be the same if you start from D, provided that you arrived to D by starting at C first :) 10:12:08 umm 10:12:15 i mean they won't be the same 10:12:21 the D scale will not be correct then. 10:12:26 so no, you shouldn't start from C then 10:12:34 if you do, why not just use equiscale. 10:12:39 just as crooked 10:12:54 thing is 10:12:59 tonal music is built on the cycle of fifths 10:13:07 we choose an arbitrary pitch as the centre 10:13:25 in indian music, they don't even have fixed note frequencies, they just tune to whatever 10:13:40 as long as there's the center, other notes are defined in terms of it 10:13:49 unless you don't want to be tonal 10:13:56 which you don't have to be, of course 10:14:18 then you can just take the octave and divide it into N equidistant pitches, for example 10:14:28 or simply choose a set of N random frequencies as your "notes" 10:14:32 or do whatever 10:14:41 yes, and my point is, if you stick the fucking C in the middle all the time, and play in say D major, and then start telling A# and Bb are different, that's just bullcrap, that's just a random distinction. it's only helpful if you're actually playing in the scale your circle of fifths is tuned on 10:14:50 but if you're tonal, you have to follow the circle of fifths 10:14:57 12 is the only one that makes sense 10:15:11 no, that's not true 10:15:13 read wouter's article on the subject 10:15:24 12 is the most natural 10:15:29 perhaps 10:15:41 chinese classical music has 5 notes per octave? 10:15:52 they manage 10:15:56 anyway, i'm not at all interested, and you're not showing me the math, so you're basically saying nothing -> 10:16:08 they do? nevaheard, link something to me while i'm gone 10:16:13 because i don't believe you :P 10:16:15 the math is that the notes in a fifth are in a 3:2 ratio 10:16:15 !! -> 10:16:24 and no matter how many such ratios you put in a line 10:16:30 you will never get to a ratio that's a power of 2 10:16:47 i.e. no amount of fifths will ever add up to the same note modulo octave 10:16:56 i.e. the circle of fifths is not a circle at all 10:16:58 no offense, but i have a lecture in -1 minutes, and i can't leave if you're talking, so... :D 10:17:11 minute of silence, please? we can talk later 10:17:20 (not that i'm interested!) 10:17:20 i told you the math :) 10:17:28 yeah, and i asked 10:17:31 but i'm an idiot 10:17:34 that's no excuse 10:17:38 I GO! 10:17:39 -> 10:18:24 * lament goes to sleep 10:30:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 10:44:22 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:09:28 lament: yeah true i was wrong, of course D scale would be the same as C, the point is not that, the point is exactly what you said, we just choose an arbitrary subset of the circle of fifths. 11:10:36 anyway the system is still stupid, splitting evenly is better 11:10:41 back to lecture -> 12:09:17 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:17:51 -!- Mony has joined. 12:18:46 plop 12:32:45 -!- Corun has joined. 13:16:40 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 13:17:53 hi oklopol 13:25:49 hi 13:26:17 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:26:38 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 14:20:08 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 14:36:15 fizzie, any progress on jitfunge? 14:42:33 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:05:44 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 15:53:37 -!- kt3k has joined. 15:54:39 AnMaster: Unfortunately not; been busy with other, more mundane things. (Also away right now, must transport self to another place.) 16:03:57 cya 16:04:53 -!- jix_ has joined. 16:14:17 -!- LolaCL has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 16:16:07 -!- LolaCL has joined. 16:31:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:16:52 hi ais523 17:17:01 hi 18:19:26 oklopol: sure, 12-tone equal temperament has a ton of advantages, which is why everyone is using it 18:19:38 oklopol: but you shouldn't confuse it for "reality" 18:19:56 i.e. just because A# = Bb in equal temperament, doesn't mean it is "really so" 18:21:16 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:24:35 lament: i can't admit i'm wrong, so i have really nothing to say here! 18:25:24 and the differences aren't purely theoretic 18:25:46 my hearing is nothing special but i can certainly hear the difference between an equal-tempered major third and a "real" major third 18:25:54 i realized what the truth was once i realized there's also G### etc. 18:26:07 yeah 18:26:20 the number of sharps and flats grows up to infinity 18:26:47 although it only rarely gets to 2 in actual music, and almost never to 3 18:27:00 in fact 18:27:15 some composers just disregard the whole thing and assume equal temperament 18:27:17 how many sharps do you need before in a non-equal-tempered scale you end up back on the scale you started on 18:27:48 an infinite amount? 18:28:02 oklopol: I'm not sure 18:28:18 after all, a true sharp is + a certain frequency 18:28:19 (3/2)**m = 2**n 18:28:30 if it's something like that, then you'll never end up on the scale 18:28:35 it probably depends on the exact ratios 18:28:53 yes that's very probable :D 18:28:57 ais523: the pythagorean tuning, which i read about this morning, has 3/2 and 2 18:29:02 need to take teh dog out 18:29:18 oerjan: that's for fifths and octaves, isn't it? 18:29:22 yes 18:29:23 I'm wondering what it is for sharps 18:29:47 ais523: just jump in fifths? 18:29:57 gcd(12, 7) = 1 18:29:59 ais523: when you go up by 7 fifths, you reach the sharp of the original 18:30:02 dog -> 18:30:03 ah, yes 18:31:02 chopin's fantasia impromptu 18:31:08 is in c# minor 18:31:28 and then the middle portion is in the major of the same key 18:31:31 also, they used 5/4 (iirc) for major third in some tunings, which is neither pythagorean nor equal-tempered 18:32:17 but instead of writing it in c# major, chopin wrote it in Db major 18:32:19 lament: the wp article said that major thirds were dissonant with pythagorean tuning, so was not used in european music after 15th century or so 18:32:30 which makes no sense at all, other than as a shortcut 18:32:35 *that tuning was 18:32:45 and because pianists are more used to reading Dbmaj than C#maj 18:32:52 and because they correspond to the same keys on the piano 18:33:09 so actual composers totally disregard this theoretical bullshit :) 18:33:54 oerjan: which article? 18:34:17 erm 18:35:54 pythagorean tuning? 18:36:15 this pic is nice 18:36:16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Music_intervals_frequency_ratio_equal_tempered_pythagorean_comparison.svg 18:36:25 lament: that was it 18:36:49 aha, i see 18:36:57 "Because fifths in Pythagorean tuning are in the simple ratio of 3:2, they sound very "smooth" and consonant. The thirds, by contrast, which are in the relatively complex ratios of 81:64 (for major thirds) and 32:27 (for minor thirds), sound less smooth." 18:36:58 second last paragraph of Method section 18:37:05 yes 18:37:13 yeah, 81:64 does not sound like it would be nice :) 18:37:41 when you think too much about it, head explodes 18:38:00 there're all these true intervals and none of them are compatible with each other 18:38:57 say you're playing in C major 18:39:08 and you want to play the G chord 18:39:19 is the D the note a fifth above G, or a second above C+ 18:39:23 s/C+/C? 18:41:07 * lament doesn't know the answer 18:41:28 9/8 does not seem like it would have any close simpler fractions... 18:41:47 i think it should be the second above C 18:41:50 so the second probably _is_ two fifths up 18:41:53 because C is your tonal centre 18:42:13 oh, good point, it is 18:43:18 er no 18:43:21 fifth is 3/2 18:43:41 3/2 * 3/2 / 2 = 9/8 18:43:49 er, right 18:44:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation 18:46:26 so G major is a bad example, but good examples are only a tiny bit more complicated, like going from C major to D minor 18:47:00 at that point you have to make a choice of whether to stay in C major and have a D minor chord that sounds wrong, or switch to a whole new set of intervals 18:47:20 hmm 18:47:44 i can clearly hear a few notes being wrong in the just intonation. 18:48:01 -!- Corun has joined. 18:48:20 if you play C major on the guitar 18:48:21 oklopol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enharmonic explains why you would want to use both A# and Bb in your notation, even with equal temper, because you want a scale to have all base letters different 18:48:28 assuming the guitar is tuned correctly 18:48:32 the E will sound off 18:49:00 so some guitarists actually detune the E and make it a just major third above C 18:49:05 which makes C major sound nicer 18:49:11 the problem of course is that all the other keys are fucked 18:49:25 if you stay in one key, though, it's better 18:49:36 so these difficulties are definitely not just theoretical 18:50:47 ugh, just intonation sounds ugly 18:51:08 how's the piano tuned? 18:51:12 equal 18:51:18 ah okay 18:51:26 well makes sense then that i find that most natural 18:51:28 almost everything is tuned equal 18:51:29 yes 18:51:41 but major thirds definitely sound wrong :) 18:51:54 they're not "calm" enough 18:52:19 in the comparison thingie, just intonation had a pretty hideous major third 18:52:39 unlike equal, which had, well, major third :| 18:52:44 but i should look more into this. 18:52:53 i've never really cared about this 18:53:10 which is why i don't know anything 18:53:23 anyway, see you must watch series. 18:53:25 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 18:53:37 -!- kt3k has quit ("CHOCOA"). 19:23:13 -!- olsner has joined. 19:43:43 -!- Corun has joined. 20:02:44 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:02:45 -!- kar8nga1 has joined. 20:03:16 -!- jix has joined. 20:05:09 -!- Mony has quit ("Hey Hoy let go !"). 20:17:43 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:54:39 -!- Corun has changed nick to Terrorist. 20:54:45 -!- Terrorist has changed nick to Corun. 21:14:36 hi ais523 21:14:56 hi, btw I'm in a large argument in another channel atm so probably won't be paying attention for a while 21:15:23 ais523, ok 21:28:55 Maybe you should imply that you had sexual national congress with the mother of your opponent. 21:34:31 * oerjan notes that "sexual national congress" has only one google hit, which is fake 21:34:42 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:35:22 although it sounds like a rather large event 21:40:06 Python 3000 is ready! The official release may not come until tomorrow, but Barry has tagged the source and is preparing the release. We've been waiting for this release for almost nine years. The earliest reference I can find is a message from Guido to python-dev in Jan. 2000. 21:40:25 ^ cool. 21:55:04 -!- kar8nga1 has left (?). 21:56:07 yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. 21:56:35 lament: why are you yaying? 21:56:50 python 3k 21:56:55 ah, ok 21:57:01 I don't know much about python versions 21:57:21 it's something akin to perl 6 21:57:28 oh 21:57:32 I'm not sure if that's OK or oh dear 21:57:34 except not quite as ambitious, which is why it's actually out after 9 years 21:57:35 rather depends on what it's like 21:57:57 it's basically python, just with some compatibility-breaking changes 21:58:44 hm 21:59:08 ais523, well I made progress with the bf optimizing, but the code is too messy 21:59:18 so I probably won't make it too smart 21:59:24 it is a nightmare to maintain. 22:00:18 ais523, also the way the code currently looks it would be possible to change the emitting code to generate something else 22:00:22 very localized to one file 22:00:30 cervix 22:00:31 so generating bf could be done 22:00:34 .D 22:00:36 :D* 22:00:59 it wouldn't be very optimised though I don't think 22:01:04 you'd have to deoptimise it back into the original 22:01:05 ais523, true 22:01:11 http://www.python.org/ftp/python/3.0/ 22:01:20 ais523, however it could optimize lost kingdom slightly 22:01:43 ais523, like dropping some non-needed [-], changing order of some stuff 22:01:44 and such 22:01:54 so it would slightly optimize it yes 22:02:56 today, KIDS, we follow ehird as he tries to get a mathematica trial WITHOUT WAITING 2 BUSINESS DAYS FOR PEOPLE TO MANUALLY READ HIS REQUEST 22:03:01 Silly ehird! 22:03:18 ehird : Download it negro 22:03:47 Slereah: I was about to follow your advice, but I saw the all-important condition of being back so I won't, being white. 22:03:59 (I tried to. Mathematica 7 hasn't made its way anywhere yet.) 22:04:13 Why do you need seven? 22:04:20 I mean, 6 is cool and all 22:05:17 Slereah: I am a magical faery 22:05:19 That is why. 22:05:37 You faery. 22:06:21 hey ais523, i don't suppose your trial would work on a totally different OS and without a new key? :P 22:06:33 ehird: no, it wouldn't 22:06:38 damn 22:06:55 oh well, time to see if wolfram acknowledge the existence of 1 FAKE STREET 22:07:18 maybe ais523 could ask mister Wolfram. 22:07:18 that's one fake street name 22:07:23 They're buddies! 22:07:31 "Hey dude, I proved your machine" 22:07:37 "Can you like give me a Mathematica?" 22:08:27 Your Mathematica product trial request has been submitted and will be processed within three business days. In the meantime, you can explore all the latest features and complete documentation. 22:08:27 Want help getting started with Mathematica? The Wolfram Mathematica Learning Center jump-starts the process with links to video screencasts; free online Mathematica seminars and presentations; "how-to"s and step-by-step examples; in-depth tutorials; thousands of free, ready-to-use models and demonstrations; and much more. 22:08:27 If you have any questions about your Mathematica product trial, please contact us. 22:08:47 Slereah: apparently the only mathematica thing ais523 got from it was a year trial 22:09:18 Well, then again, with his prize money, he could buy a bunch of Mathematica I guess 22:09:27 Not that much, really. 22:09:29 Like 12. 22:09:57 Slereah: I believe he's said he used it to pay expenses :P 22:10:08 "Hookers and blow"? 22:12:43 sounds like ais alright. 22:28:39 proto to implement the wormhole: 22:28:47 return dummy value that stores expresions its used in 22:28:53 when yu're forced to eval it, e.g. print out 22:28:56 evaluate it 22:28:56 umm 22:29:02 the tll is actually just lazy evaluation 22:29:06 except it's given to you pre-evaluation 22:29:07 XD 23:09:55 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 23:11:54 -!- Dewi has joined. 23:19:20 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 23:19:52 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:37:11 pgimeno: you should make mandelbrot in paintfuck 23:37:12 << 2008-12-04: 00:24:55 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 00:30:48 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:34:06 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 00:38:51 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 00:54:37 -!- Judofyr has joined. 01:30:54 -!- Corun has joined. 01:38:28 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 02:00:03 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:08:01 JSMIPS crashes TraceMonkey 8-D 04:13:38 Darn, irssi doesn't have infinite scrollback. 04:14:45 * Warrigal scrolls back before the beginning of time, thereby ending up at the end of time, where the history of the world is obscured by noise caused by the few remaining charged particles 04:16:22 * Warrigal scrolls back forward to Fermat's time 04:16:47 Darn. His proof got truncated because the message was more than 512 characters long. 04:42:10 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:55:39 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit. 04:56:15 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 05:38:27 Warrigal: you can change your nick as much as you want, but you cannot hide saying things like that. 06:06:08 -!- Dewi has quit ("bbl"). 06:10:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:13:16 -!- ab5tract_ has joined. 06:15:46 -!- ab5tract_ has quit (Client Quit). 06:16:33 -!- ab5tract_ has joined. 06:17:46 -!- ab5tract_ has quit (Client Quit). 06:19:17 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 06:37:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:37:42 -!- ineiros has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:37:42 -!- Warrigal has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:38:47 -!- Warrigal has joined. 06:38:50 -!- ineiros has joined. 06:57:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:39:23 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:42:40 Warrigal, hehe 07:54:00 Warrigal, so they invented pastebins after Fermat's time then? 07:57:09 -!- Judofyr has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:32:25 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:44:16 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 09:20:32 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 09:37:10 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:48:07 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:26:12 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 10:29:34 -!- oklopol has joined. 10:29:39 -!- oklopol has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:29:48 -!- oklopol has joined. 10:30:29 o 11:37:03 ehird: where's counter? 12:12:53 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 12:12:57 -!- oklokok has joined. 12:30:30 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 12:52:34 WAIT 12:52:38 wait 12:52:40 oklokok: 12:52:42 you USE the counter?? 12:53:29 i play it occasionally 12:55:14 xD 12:55:17 i'll get it back up sometime 12:55:48 so cool 12:55:52 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol. 12:56:00 it's a good game, you see. 13:05:48 -!- ehird has set topic: nice blog. i thoguht you were a website though. im a cracker. i dont know how to hack. are you a hacker or cracker? | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 13:06:52 oklopol: what I'll do is make version 4 13:07:04 because, srsly, who doesn't want charts of their clickering? 13:07:28 oklopol: would you mind starting from 0 if you got FUCKING CHARTS?!?!?! 13:08:58 that'd be awesome, no, i wouldn't mind 13:09:05 iz for greater good. 13:10:07 ya 13:10:22 oklopol: the problem is scaling, i mean, it's hard to imagine a good storage system for this 13:10:33 i'm thinking 13:10:37 an in memory buffer of like 1000 clicks 13:10:43 that's appended to the main file every now and then 13:10:55 and the file's split into liek 10MB chunks 13:11:09 dunno how to nicely index stuff so that you can go to a user page and get infos fast 13:11:12 's a hard problem 13:12:02 haha, my little counter will revolutionize databases :> 13:13:06 mmhmm? 13:13:14 oklopol: mwhat 13:14:32 oklopol: basically 13:14:43 i have to invent a hyper-fast append-only storage system 13:14:49 that has indexes on just about every column 13:14:59 indexeeeeeeeeeeees 13:15:05 and it has to scale to over 200 appends per second 13:15:14 (that's what the original counter peaked at, 200 clicks/sec) 13:15:20 but 13:15:22 it could go even higher 13:15:23 and 13:15:29 it has to support billions and billions of rows 13:15:30 and shit 13:15:31 :D 13:15:41 revolution! 13:15:49 oklopol: wat 13:16:01 ehird: stop asking me questions 13:16:06 oklopol: why 13:16:11 you know i can't answer them. 13:16:28 "everything that's blue is type information" 13:16:46 lol 13:17:08 oklopol: i'm calling the storage system revolution now 13:17:09 :P 13:18:13 "the yellow boxes are more like placeholders" 13:18:19 what lang is this 13:19:01 i'm not sure, i'm attending this lecture, but i'm not really interested in the whole subject, so i just pick up random fragments and irc. 13:20:46 people = revolution.Schema( 13:20:46 name='people', 13:20:46 properties=[ 13:20:46 ['id', revolution.INDEXED], 13:20:46 ['name', revolution.INDEXED], 13:20:48 ['password'], 13:20:50 ] 13:20:52 ) 13:21:05 stores in data/people.{1,2,3,4,...,100} etc 13:22:24 hmm, do you think i'd manage to read real world haskell, or would i just burn it after a few pages? 13:24:00 oklopol: it's pretty good 13:24:01 it's not like 13:24:04 enterprisey whizbang haskell 13:24:21 it's: here's how you structure a haskell program that uses the interwebs and file io and stuff nicely while still being all neatfunctional 13:24:43 the people who wrote it are #haskell regulars and stuff, some work at galois (company thing that uses haskell). 13:24:55 hmm. okay well spoken, i don't think i need more. 13:25:13 i mean yeah k i'll read it 13:25:32 * oklopol is desperately trying to leave python :P 13:26:02 oklopol: yeah python is really easy to do shit in but it's just so regular 13:27:41 yes. and it's much too verbose for my taste. 13:27:54 i mean for algorithm-related stuff 13:28:10 which is why i'd like to learn stuff like J 13:28:20 "so, inheritance, do you guys know this concept?" 13:28:44 the lecturer is somekinda businessman, not our usual prof 13:28:58 i bet he's a noob, but i haven't been listening 13:30:01 one thing I've learned is that oop sucks, basically. 13:30:30 inheritance is a pretty wild horse yes. 13:30:55 oop people are just idiots, they say that encapsulation and hiding is important and objects cant peek at others internals 13:30:58 but inheritance is exctly that 13:31:28 well that depends, some believe inheritance should be done entirely in an encapsulativousal fashion 13:32:26 anyway true, peeking inheritance doesn't make much sense unless you're writing the inheritance tree as a whole. 13:35:08 hmm. okay now i have absolutely no idea what's happening, i could just as well just get out :) 13:35:36 def add(*args): 13:35:36 self.cache_log.append(args) 13:35:43 oklopol: fast :-P 13:36:07 what's that now 13:36:29 """ 13:36:29 A fast append-only storage system that stores a ton of stuff 13:36:29 in memory before serializing it to chunked files. 13:36:29 Does indexes galore. 13:36:30 """ 13:36:36 callsin' it revolution after your nonsense line 13:36:38 using it for the counter 13:36:42 as it keeps a log of every click 13:36:49 and i need lots of indexes for statistics 13:36:58 nonsense? 13:36:58 :o 13:37:05 when you just said revolution out of nowher 13:37:06 :P 13:37:25 no in fact i think it was good context for dat. 13:37:54 2 seconds to add a million records, cool, though its just an array append :P 13:37:57 and I need to do the serialization 13:38:01 and indexes 13:38:34 yes it's not very surprising you can do nothing to a lot of data in no time 13:41:09 oklopol: its doing things with a list 13:41:09 :P 13:42:18 yes, a sophisticated flavor of nothing 13:43:00 hmm oklopol how would you code an index? 13:43:02 that is 13:43:07 how would you serialize a mapping of 13:43:11 string=>string 13:43:16 so that you can access it without loading it all into memor 13:43:17 y 13:43:21 and without searching through the whole file 13:43:48 whhhell. 13:43:51 there are tonsa ways 13:44:01 don't ppl usually use b for file stuff 13:44:11 wat? 13:44:25 err b-tree 13:45:15 i think that's the canonical database data structure 13:45:21 or b+, same thing really 13:45:23 oklopol: yeah how would you write one of thems out to disk so you can lookup without reading in the whole file, personally? 13:45:40 well, multiple b-trees, i'm splitting files every now and then 13:46:06 well no need really 13:46:09 but go for it 13:47:16 oklopol: yah but how would you 13:47:17 :P 13:47:21 i can't think of an eleganty way 13:49:29 err. 13:49:47 * oklopol mutters something about a higher-level operating system 13:50:14 oklopol: i feel you bro :{ 13:50:18 ^ not gay 13:50:31 a b-tree isn't that hard to make serialized. that's pretty much how it was designed 13:50:46 yeah but 13:50:54 i can't think how to look up without scannign through the whooooooooooole tree 13:50:54 :{ 13:50:57 hash tables work fine in memory 13:50:58 but i haven't tried it, can't really guide you mucho. 13:51:03 but i can't think how they'd work nice just scanning on discccc 13:51:24 err. with a b-tree in the file, you'd just have to traverse the tree down once, log n 13:53:37 -!- Asztal has joined. 13:54:03 hmm. gotta leave 13:54:23 -----> !! 13:54:25 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 13:54:32 -!- oklopol has joined. 13:58:47 wb oklopol 13:58:47 :P 14:13:52 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out). 14:28:53 -!- jix_ has joined. 14:42:10 -!- jix_ has quit ("..."). 14:43:10 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 14:43:20 hokay record format: 14:43:30 hmm 14:43:43 i can't use \0\0 as terminator and \0 as sep because that doesn't allow blank fields 14:43:46 oh well, I'll just use \0 and \1 14:45:31 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 14:45:40 I just stole a Matlab module from my university :o 14:45:43 Am I a bad man? 14:47:06 I'm telling 15:02:50 Well, it's not really stealing 15:02:56 Considering that they still have it 15:03:01 It is COPYWRONG D: 15:08:55 Copywrong 15:08:56 brilliant 15:09:05 I am calling piracy that from now on 15:09:34 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 15:19:17 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:35:29 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 15:39:47 -!- Slereah has joined. 15:44:44 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:44:44 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:54:21 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:56:30 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:57:17 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:59:27 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:04:23 I want a filesystem that versions absolutely everything automatically. :( 16:04:31 EVERYTHING. 16:09:30 -!- jix_ has joined. 16:12:09 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 16:12:09 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:14:28 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 16:16:54 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:18:31 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:24:31 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 16:36:47 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:42:06 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:49:23 <8b>5dff5ba9-d4e0-4cc8-a70d-7ad97616ec12<0>name<0>$2a$12$2FavSY4z8BQ1.S7gUtp1ye0W/.HyHngFpxfQU76mrkSDv5InU1OZ.<0>penguinofthegods@gmail.com<0>2008<0>12<0>4 16:49:31 ^ where is that unprintable char 16:49:45 multiple items, of course, just being stuck after each other: 16:49:48 <8b>5dff5ba9-d4e0-4cc8-a70d-7ad97616ec12<0>name<0>$2a$12$2FavSY4z8BQ1.S7gUtp1ye0W/.HyHngFpxfQU76mrkSDv5InU1OZ.<0>penguinofthegods@gmail.com<0>2008<0>12<0>4<8b>5dff5ba9-d4e0-4cc8-a70d-7ad97616ec12<0>name<0>$2a$12$2FavSY4z8BQ1.S7gUtp1ye0W/.HyHngFpxfQU76mrkSDv5InU1OZ.<0>penguinofthegods@gmail.com<0>2008<0>12<0>4 16:49:58 (it's record<0>record<0>...) 16:55:44 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:00:03 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:03:32 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:08:45 hi ais523 17:09:21 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:09:28 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:10:28 ehird: "revolution" sounds like a Windows codename version 17:10:35 heh, kinda 17:10:45 Is the revolution that it works okay? 17:10:54 instantrimshot.com 17:11:16 *slide whistle* 17:11:35 ehird: why do you keep writing that? 17:11:45 ais523: because Slereah made a terrible joke? 17:11:48 -!- Judofyr has quit (Client Quit). 17:11:59 ehird: yes, but so far it's made no sense in any context, why the .com? 17:12:05 ais523: http://instantrimshot.com/ 17:12:06 turn on flash :-P 17:12:18 (it's a red button that, when clicked, produces an instant e-rimshot at your convenience.) 17:12:26 if it requires flash, no point in visiting it 17:12:28 for me 17:12:37 thus the :-P 17:13:08 ais523, why do you hate freedom? 17:13:49 Slereah: I may be happier with Flash once there's an alternative implementation that isn't the biggest cross-platform security hole in existence 17:13:55 gnash? 17:13:57 instantrimshot.com 17:14:03 not really sure if it's ready yet 17:14:11 thus the instantrimshot.com 17:14:15 besides, the sort of websites that use Flash aren't the sort of websites I like ot visit 17:14:22 and also, SVG was standardised first 17:14:25 and does all the same things 17:14:36 just people insist on using it only as a vector graphics format for some reason 17:14:40 and is 100000x slower in every modern browser :P 17:14:54 ehird: well, there's a huge problem with SVG, which is that nobody implements it properly 17:14:59 lol 17:15:02 ironically, the only sane implementation I've seen was by Adobe 17:15:23 but they stopped supporting it after a while, and it was never open-sourced 17:15:55 ais523 17:16:01 Maybe YOU SHOULD DO IT :o 17:16:13 So that you may see our awesome flash videos. 17:16:34 too busy right now, also Flash is big and complex and inherently insecure 17:16:50 I mean, what sort of format designed for websites should be able to use the client's webcam by default? 17:16:51 Why inherently? 17:17:05 Flash is sort of like Java with a worse security model, in terms of its capabilities 17:17:06 Well, it doesn't have to use it. 17:17:14 I mean, was it able to do that ten years ago? 17:17:21 I'm not sure webcam existed back then 17:18:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:18:31 Maybe you should like get an old version of Flash :o 17:18:54 Although I'm not sure you could fit it in Firefox. But then again, you can just download the flash and watch it. 17:19:06 ais523: um 17:19:10 it asks permission for webcam 17:19:10 :P 17:19:16 it does nowadays 17:19:27 Get an old one then :o 17:19:34 So that you may see our hilarious links! 17:19:46 http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/shii 17:19:51 HEY GUYS, REMEMBER THE INTERNET? 17:20:52 * oerjan vaguely recalls something about it 17:21:19 oerjan : It was more commonly known as the "Information super highway" 17:21:26 Or the "World Wide Webeverse" 17:21:33 ah yes it was something Al Gore invented 17:21:55 Using nothing but tubes. 17:21:59 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:22:11 dude, it's tubular 17:22:28 replacing the internet with a big truck would save on bandwidth 17:22:42 Come on dude, the internet isn't a truck. 17:22:43 but not on latency 17:22:45 It's 17:22:49 a series of tube. 17:23:29 it shares the tubes with the sewer system 17:23:40 sometimes there is overflow, thus we get spam 17:24:12 The internet is nothing but a statistical experiment. 17:24:26 it gradually worsens as global warming causes sea level to rise, increasing flood incidents 17:24:30 what would happen if a million monkeys typed on a million typewriters? 17:24:35 So far, no Shakespeare. 17:25:11 Slereah: alas, it's logarithmic, just 12*log 10 increase 17:25:21 compared to a single monkey 17:25:23 um wait 17:25:28 6*log 10 17:25:42 for a moment i assumed the monkeys had a million typewriters each 17:27:13 But they have only four hands, oerjan 17:27:16 Well, and a tail 17:27:20 It wouldn't be useful 17:27:37 only spammers have that, i don't think they have produced any shakespeare yet, unless they copied it 17:28:12 Iunno 17:28:19 Do you know those spams with random words? 17:28:24 Some can be pretty poetic 17:28:28 hm yeah 17:28:38 but still, the problem is it's logarithmic 17:28:40 Lemme find an awesome one 17:28:52 the CAPTCHA on Wikimedia often ends up poetic 17:29:03 doubling the number of monkeys only increases by 1 bit the length of useful results 17:29:07 http://balinares.livejournal.com/54645.html 17:30:41 hm a spam poetry contest 17:30:51 the winner gets 1 month off his jail time 17:31:06 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:31:10 <:| 17:31:13 >:| 17:31:36 oerjan> hm a spam poetry contest 17:31:41 oerjan> the winner gets 1 month off his jail time 17:32:03 Slereah_: so are you wearing a dunce cap or a pointy hat, or are you just angry 17:33:17 * oerjan wants a mitochondrial particle accelerator 17:33:26 -!- olsner has joined. 17:33:36 like a jedi? 17:37:35 hm 17:37:50 you're thinking of midichlorians 17:40:46 I want a filesystem that versions absolutely everything automatically. :( 17:40:59 uh oh oerjan pun time 17:41:02 i recall VMS did that 17:41:10 yeah i think so 17:41:14 no, just ancient memory 17:41:48 i believe nvg has an OpenVMS server somewhere for the nostalgic members 17:42:46 when i joined university, the computer system was VMS 17:43:17 and nvg's first server was a VAX running Ultrix 17:45:20 so i logged onto my account on the university's VMS system to connect to that server's MUD. that's how i got started on the internet. 17:49:45 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:51:38 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:02:09 -!- oklopol has joined. 18:03:17 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 18:04:38 D:< 18:07:21 hi oklopol 18:14:32 -!- Slereah has joined. 18:14:33 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH 18:15:17 maybe you could use one of those bouncer thingies? 18:15:29 wat 18:15:52 like ehird and ais523 do/used to do 18:15:58 do 18:16:05 i'll give Slereah an account if he wants 18:16:22 I have no idea what you're talking about 18:16:23 Slereah: they avoid quitjoin-spamming channels when your connection goes wrong 18:16:41 oerjan: I'm still on a bouncer 18:16:45 Slereah: basically, you connect to a server 18:16:49 and it connects to IRC on your behalf 18:16:52 Slereah: you connect to an irc server 18:16:54 that's always connected 18:16:57 so you never go offline 18:16:59 and when you reconnect, 18:17:01 even if you become disconnected from it, it's still connected to Freenode 18:17:03 everything you missed gets sent back at you 18:17:07 ~end~ 18:17:11 ais523: i just had this impression i've seen you not on one recently 18:17:21 oerjan: when he's using mibbit? 18:17:25 oerjan: I've been on one all along, explaining why I haven't disconnected for ages 18:17:35 even when I've been on mibbit as ais523_, ais523's still connected from the bouncer 18:17:38 just I'm not connected to it 18:17:43 ah 18:17:52 Well, I guess it would be nice. 18:18:24 Slereah: the downside is that I get access to your nickserv password :-P 18:18:30 well 18:18:32 actually 18:18:34 that can be avoided 18:18:41 by just doing it manually 18:18:50 but i could just log in as you anyway. although i haven't done that once. 18:18:55 ehird 18:19:00 Slereah 18:19:02 I have no nickserv password 18:19:06 At least I don't use it 18:19:16 sweet, I'ma impersonate you next time you drop offline 18:19:19 Freenode doesn't require you to identify 18:23:30 -!- Slereah- has joined. 18:23:37 NEVER HAVE I BEEN MORE ANGRY OR ORANGE 18:24:08 Slereah-: if you were Nickserv-identified, you could get your nickname back from the ghost Slereah 18:24:29 Could I? 18:24:33 yes. 18:24:38 /ns ghost Slereah PASSWORD 18:24:41 will kill slereah 18:24:46 -!- Slereah has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:24:51 tada 18:24:52 HOLY SMOKE, A MIRACLE 18:25:06 But it still mean I have to type it every goddamn time 18:25:18 It's easier to wait it to drop 18:25:37 use a less secure password 18:25:37 :P 18:25:49 My password is not secure. 18:25:51 Like not at all. 18:26:03 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:26:10 It's a fucking IRC password dude 18:26:15 I only use it to... 18:26:26 Well, I don't remember why I need it for on freenode 18:27:12 Slereah-: to stop other people doing this: 18:27:14 -!- ais523 has changed nick to Slereah. 18:27:25 OH SHI- 18:27:27 -!- Slereah has changed nick to ais523. 18:27:30 MY OWN CLONE! 18:27:38 NOW NEITHER OF US WILL BE VIRGINS! 18:27:39 ais523 18:27:46 You know why that's a stupid argument? 18:27:49 i think he stopped being your clone 18:28:02 Because Freenode doesn't actually require you to enter your password 18:28:10 I never enter it, and they never kick me out 18:28:20 people can check with nickserv if you're logged in. 18:28:26 Slereah-: some things do require an entered password 18:28:31 Yes. 18:28:35 for instance, many people won't receive /msgs from you if you aren't identified 18:28:37 But not the things I usually do 18:28:46 and you need one to kick off someone else who's using your nick 18:28:52 It's also why I actually registered it 18:28:56 For those rare instances. 18:30:35 Plus, you can impersonate me if you want. 18:30:51 To see for yourself, just for one moment, how awesome it is to be me. 18:39:50 -!- oerjan has changed nick to Slereah. 18:40:00 ooh, flashy 18:40:05 -!- Slereah has changed nick to oerjan. 18:40:20 You're a fraud! 18:40:23 A phony! 18:40:25 A fake! 18:40:29 An impostor! 18:40:49 you're hyphenated! 18:41:07 -!- jix_ has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 18:41:51 -!- Slereah- has changed nick to Slereah. 18:41:54 AM I? 18:43:08 * oerjan picks up the dropped hyphen and adds it to the swatter -----### 18:43:51 aargh 18:48:18 ehird 18:48:23 What's the source of the topic 18:48:25 wait, which Slereah is which? 18:48:43 I am Pedro Sanchez Villalobo. 18:49:26 * oerjan is suspicious, that doesn't sound french 18:49:43 Neither does your FACE 18:49:59 o 18:50:14 now i'm even more suspicious, maybe you're really GregorR 18:50:33 Is Gregor a mootxican? 18:51:24 hm "Pedro Sanchez Villalobo" gives only one google hit, in french 18:51:33 i guess it's french after all, then 18:51:35 Weird. 18:51:53 IIRC, it was the name of the ape general in Critter Commando 18:51:56 Lemme check 19:00:50 "The government in Los Estados Unidos Banana de Republico is like an industrial machine, 3000 revolutions a minute!" 19:05:03 The United States Banana of Republic? 19:05:22 * oerjan is reminded of the Junta boardgame 19:05:47 ugh, not that, I played it once and the other players got annoyed with me for not getting into the spirit of the thing 19:05:51 I played it far too honestly 19:05:51 villalobos 19:06:00 admitted secret political donations, that sort of thing 19:06:34 that was "Republica de los Bananas", though 19:07:56 ais523: well, annoying the other players _is_ part of the spirit of the game :D 19:08:05 maybe not in that way, though 19:09:06 Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmoxie. 19:12:17 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:13:37 hmph as i suspected, banana is feminine in spanish 19:15:30 It's pretty phallic looking though! 19:15:39 you'd think 19:18:21 i vaguely recall occasionally reading about some muslims having trouble with it 19:18:52 not allowing women to eat it undivided, that sort of thing 19:19:03 Ouch. 19:19:09 It hurts my penis to think of it 19:28:43 Sooooo 19:28:50 Anyone knows the source of the topic? 19:30:18 -!- jix has joined. 19:31:50 google gives: http://www.angryhacker.com/blog/archive/2008/10/09/is-google-the-new-real-networks.aspx 19:33:18 Heh. 19:33:22 It's true. Real Player must die. 19:33:44 Although it's full of nostalgia. 19:33:46 You know something? 19:34:00 Real player was the first format I ever got pirated TV shows. 19:34:11 Back in... 2001? 19:34:23 South Park episodes, under 20 MB. 19:34:31 Smallest one is barely 6MB 19:34:34 For 20 minutes. 19:43:09 -!- sorear has joined. 19:56:41 -!- Corun has joined. 20:01:32 http://brainlessworld.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/dehydrated-water.jpg 20:03:02 Heh. 20:03:03 Cute. 20:05:15 http://www.buydehydratedwater.com/ 20:05:43 is that what you get from mineral/tap water if you remove all the H2O and are left only with the minerals dissolved in it? 20:05:51 ais523: no, it's water without the wate 20:05:51 r 20:06:06 http://buydehydratedwater.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=5 mega gift indulgence pack 20:06:16 http://buydehydratedwater.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=9 do it yourself guide 20:06:21 Yo dawg I heard you like water so I put water in yo water so you can drink while you drink 20:06:28 http://buydehydratedwater.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=8 book of practical uses 20:07:10 This book would be a great gift. 20:07:16 Sort of a "fuck you" gift 20:20:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:25:45 Hello KING 20:25:50 How's the kingdom? 20:26:16 Slereah: for some reason that seemed crazily sarcastic to me 20:26:21 even though probably it wasn't meant to be 20:26:39 Hey, I'm no king hater dude 20:26:52 I'm more royalist than the king! 20:28:36 -!- atrapado has joined. 20:33:41 Should I work on updating PSOX to Py3K? 20:33:56 Sgeo: I'm not entirely certain anyone will care either way 20:34:01 Sgeo: MP 20:34:02 NO 20:34:09 * Sgeo was kidding 20:34:17 Sgeo: DO NOT JOKE ABOUT SUCH MATTERS DAMNIT 20:34:39 you'll give me a heart attack 20:34:40 sheesh 20:35:24 ehird: why would it be that disastrous? 20:35:35 ais523: NEVER SAY ANOTHER WORD TO ME ABOUT PSOX 20:35:38 :O 20:35:45 ehird: you need help, obviously 20:35:50 there's nothing wrong with mentioning PSOX 20:35:54 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH 20:36:05 I WILL KILL YOU WHILE YOU SLEEP 20:36:12 don't, please 20:36:21 that would be kind of weird, scary and illegal 20:36:29 AND PSOX 20:36:30 ehird, would it give you pain to remind you that you contributed to PSOX? 20:36:35 Sgeo: yeah, one line 20:36:38 when i thought you got some sanity 20:36:40 which line was it? 20:36:47 actually wait 20:36:49 ais523: more like -50 lines 20:36:54 as i removed the stupid-shit safety crap 20:36:54 :P 20:37:01 oh, you added a negative number of lines 20:37:15 i improved it by making there be less of it 20:37:37 You also gave me the names of some stuff in the type system 20:37:52 no 20:37:57 i advocated getting rid of the type system 20:39:25 stop fighting let's all be friends 20:39:34 oklopol: you just don't get PSOX 20:39:54 yes my one weakness :'( 20:42:46 -!- oerjan has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i improved it by making there be less of it. 21:00:52 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:21:49 * ehird considers switching to haskell as his go-to language 21:23:19 at least add it... it royally sucks for most sorts of I/O problems but it's great for the calculator job above bc 21:23:46 pretty much all my one-off problems are solved with either perl or haskell 21:24:13 I used to use haskell quite a lot; I just need to get more to grips with structuring actual programs in it. 21:24:22 Right now I generally just hack something up in Python. 21:26:41 Hi, sorear. 21:26:54 Hi? 21:27:11 hey, sorear's been in here all along and I didn't notice 21:27:26 ais523: turn off join muting 21:27:38 I've been here all of 1:30 21:27:49 I forget who sorear is? :P 21:28:00 A person. 21:28:06 I kind of inferred that much. 21:28:07 Not a terribly remarkable one. 21:28:21 Something like Stephan O'Rear, if I remember correctly. 21:28:24 I don't have it on, but my bouncer misses joins sometimes anyway 21:28:39 I know sorear from TAEB 21:28:41 something like that 21:28:42 * ehird grrs at haskell for not letting me use the field name 'name' in two `data`s 21:28:49 oh, taeb, right 21:29:10 * sorear greps his giant pile of logs for 'ihope' 21:29:26 I'm in there somewhere. 21:29:39 #haskell, figures 21:29:53 Wtf, Warrigal is connected from normish 21:29:53 XD 21:30:44 And that's how I've been connected for a couple days, a feat I could never manage on home computers. 21:32:06 Damnit, my haskell code treats into right-margin-indent hell and over-paren hell again. 21:32:12 Maybe I should try, you know, splitting up my functions. 21:32:38 If it's not a one-liner it _probably_ needs to be factored 21:32:55 I'm terrible at factoring stuff. 21:36:11 Heh. I factored my code and it looks even uglier. 21:36:34 you should see some of my Prolog 21:36:38 That's some feat. 21:36:43 recently I've been doing quite a lot of defactoring 21:36:46 for imperativy stuff 21:36:52 lots of nested parens for ; and -> 21:36:57 http://hpaste.org/12698 <-- Awful, awful, awful looking. 21:38:22 might try some list comprehensions 21:38:44 oerjan: Well, the thing that really sticks out before the other ugly is initialCurrencies 21:38:52 having names in a separate line all by itself, and the crazy-indent of the Currency values. 21:40:24 Why are rates Maybe Integers? 21:40:37 You're tracking currencies that aren't in the PBA? 21:40:40 Sgeo: The PBA can conceivably be given assets that aren't currencies. :P 21:40:47 You could do it right now, fr'instance. 21:40:51 oh 21:40:59 Although technically I do not have to track them, I feel like I should. 21:41:49 * Sgeo should learn Haskell, well, at least know it more than just knowing a stupid pun 21:41:55 I should show that to the #haskell folks so that they kill me. 21:42:50 Someone rate this idea. 21:43:07 10 21:44:49 ehird: i annotated, although maybe it got too wide 21:45:13 oerjan: a bit better, but everything below initialcurrencies is still blergh 21:45:32 "Transform your code into pointless form to make it beautiful. :)" -- stunning advice of #haskell 21:45:46 oerjan: also, it occurs to me that the list comprehension is actually pretty unneeded there 21:45:53 i mean, you're not actually using any list comprehension features. 21:46:12 just for prettyness, of course 21:46:17 What would pointfree form actually change? 21:46:26 Sgeo: it would make it look awful. 21:46:44 I don't even see where in the code the changes would be 21:46:50 But remember I'm a Haskell n00b 21:46:54 (\k -> k ++ " credit") == (++ " credit") 21:47:03 everything should be as pointless as possible, but no pointlesser. 21:47:32 that's at least one place where pointless is better 21:47:44 oerjan: oh, true 21:48:29 also oerjan 21:48:32 yours is over 80 charactrs 21:48:33 :( 21:48:40 i.e. i have to do more pig-ugly wrapping 21:49:52 right i was afraid Currency { ... } did not fit even with starting further left 21:50:50 hm 21:50:51 hi 21:50:56 ais523, hello 21:50:58 * Sgeo doesn't worry about wrapping in his Agora proposals, obviously 21:51:30 {{@pl \i -> show i ++ " crop" 21:51:30 [21:50] lambdabot: 21:51:30 (++ " crop") . show}} 21:51:35 "your code will be better if you make it more obscure." 21:53:18 ehird: why are your credits notes? 21:53:52 lament: It's for Agora Nomic. Notes are the rules-sanctioned non-transferrable currency. Note Credits are a hack that makes them sort-of-transferrable in practice. 21:54:00 (user-made) 21:54:05 ah. 21:54:07 (er, player-made :p) 21:54:31 why are some sharps and some flats? 21:54:48 lament: the most common usage that I can see. Annoyingly for someone who is musically retarded (me), people like switching between the two in actions. 21:54:59 hehe 21:55:22 Let's all just use # 21:55:28 i'd rather keep it consistent 21:55:31 in the program at least 21:55:44 lament: would you go with sharps or flats :P 21:55:58 i would throw a coin 21:56:04 and then i would crawl around for hours trying to find it 21:56:12 and then i would forget why i'm doing that 21:56:17 and then i'd go drink some tea 21:56:23 ehird, ooh, look, nice 21:56:29 lament's life sounds exciting 21:56:55 about as exciting as garfieldminusgarfield 21:58:19 so, in trying to make my code prettier with #haskell's help, i have made it uglier 21:58:21 WOO HOO 21:58:34 ehird, http://hpaste.org/12698#a4 is pretty 21:58:55 it would have been nice if someone linked me to that 21:59:00 but errrrr 21:59:02 that's not pretty. 21:59:09 that's ugly. 21:59:15 How is it ugly 21:59:22 You want more than whitespace stuff changed? 21:59:39 it's ugly because it's in Haskell. 21:59:40 it's way too slim and vertical for no real reason, it's inconsistent in its indentation and it's hard to read 21:59:48 lament: yes, we know, you hate haskell 22:00:30 ehird, it's easy for me to read 22:00:38 maybe you're blind. 22:00:59 Easier than the others, at least 22:01:03 it's definitely inconsistent, some bug there 22:01:36 one option is not to start to the right of the where 22:01:41 Sgeo: wait, are you Sgeo? 22:01:52 ? 22:01:58 from #haskell 22:02:12 and was he Sgeo? 22:02:17 I don't know :P 22:02:32 I HATE HASKELL-MODE AND ITS GODDAMN "WHAT PEOPLE NEVER INDENT SUBEXPRESSIONS" 22:02:48 TYPING FOUR SPACES MANUALLY! WHAT! THIS IS 2008 22:04:13 don't use haskell then 22:04:30 gee, is lament talking about haskell sucks 22:04:31 that's new 22:04:54 ehird: new try 22:05:20 what the 22:05:23 oerjan: that's some serverely messed up intendation 22:05:25 also, http://hpaste.org/12698#a6 my new try 22:06:00 i don't know what happened with the crops and credits lines 22:06:03 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p252251216.txt 22:06:13 oklopol: make my haskell look nice 22:06:32 convert it to C# 22:06:32 somehow i managed to make the same bug as that consonanty guy 22:06:39 lament: no 22:07:09 oklopol: NO THAT IS FORBIDDEN 22:10:50 so lament which language do YOU use :P 22:14:06 hok 22:14:09 hey oklopol 22:14:14 DOT ACTION 2 22:14:28 INTERCAL! 22:16:29 :) 22:16:38 oh it's short for action, of course... 22:16:49 i just thought it was "dot, act 2" 22:16:50 xD 22:16:54 XD 22:17:24 would you want to meet someone in a dark alley who thought that INTERCAL was beautiful? 22:17:48 quite possibly, they'd be less likely to hurt me than someone who had never heard of INTERCAL 22:17:58 i agree with ais523 22:18:18 fwiw, they'd be quite likely to know who I was 22:18:37 lessee, would you use a plastic surgeon who thought that INTERCAL was beautiful? 22:18:56 the risk of ending up like a picasso painting... 22:19:39 that's another clear yes 22:20:04 i was afraid of that 22:20:22 I'm not convinced I'd use a plastic surgeon at all 22:20:26 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 22:20:44 well me neither 22:21:14 i'm pretty enough <3 22:21:28 oklopol: Not as pretty as INTERCAL! 22:21:50 "That pig ugly code is perfect" -- #haskell 22:22:10 ehird: everyone seems to disagree with your sense of aesthetics is the problem 22:22:22 ais523: do you think that code looks nice? 22:22:31 which one? 22:22:51 http://hpaste.org/12698#a6 22:23:07 it's a bit wide 22:23:20 things like ["C", "C#", "D", "D#", "E", "F", "F#", "G", "Ab", "A", "Bb", "B"] look bad on one line 22:23:24 Cale: looks like something to do with optimizing political gain in return for payoffs 22:23:31 -- #haskell on what my code goes 22:23:32 because they don't fit in with their surroundings 22:23:48 do they know about nomic? 22:23:55 i haven't told them a thing 22:23:56 XD 22:24:21 bah 22:24:24 Sgeo: you ruined all the fun 22:24:27 that's all you ever do 22:24:33 hm, what do you do with water rights in agora anyway? :D 22:24:37 -!- ehird has left (?). 22:24:47 oerjan: they prevent ranches drying up 22:24:52 ranches generate numbers 22:24:56 which can be used to score points 22:25:11 WRV are generally considered to be the most useful stable Agoran asset at the moment 22:26:28 aha 22:27:25 it's a script kiddie bot? 22:27:39 I post the link to it's page on the Notary wiki 22:27:40 that screen shot looks like scores of simultaneous ssh login attempts 22:27:40 someone should disillusion them about that 22:41:48 -!- oklokok has joined. 22:42:15 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:43:17 Who's been including D# along with Ab and Bb? 22:44:46 clearly they should have infinitely many notes :) 22:45:26 * oerjan swats lament -----### 22:45:35 just to test the new hyphen, you see 22:46:47 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:47:42 it looks just like the old hyphen 22:48:17 lament: well yes, it was a perfect fit 22:48:26 there's one more hyphen in the swatter than before 22:48:35 oerjan stole it off Slereah- 22:48:44 well, took it as it was unused 22:50:34 I took your wallet, since you weren't using it 23:17:55 -!- oklopol has joined. 23:19:15 -!- oklokok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:21:27 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 23:25:53 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:25:58 -!- oklopol has joined. 23:31:36 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 23:38:00 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 2008-12-05: 00:13:40 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:14:52 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 00:24:34 -!- Corun has joined. 00:36:27 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:56:18 -!- Dewi has joined. 01:03:45 -!- ehird has joined. 01:06:03 -!- Asztal_ has joined. 01:09:07 -!- Asztal_ has quit (Client Quit). 01:22:08 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p561556134.txt :) 01:26:24 ? 01:28:27 ValueError: generator already executing 02:22:01 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 02:54:25 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:54:52 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 03:15:42 My cat seems to be hibernating for the winter :P 03:15:58 She woke up to eat today, then went back to sleep. That was her entire day :P 03:17:41 Doesn't count. 03:17:53 * Warrigal pushes the big red button 03:19:18 http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/dumbbell this button? 03:23:10 that was nice 03:23:26 would have been cooler if he'd written the sign himself before passign out 03:26:41 But that would mean he woke up and saw a blank sign? 03:29:04 Unless he was briefly conscious when going to the other side, and drew on that sign, then woke up forgetting? 03:29:08 That'd be less dramatic though 03:29:13 * Sgeo pokes Warrigal 03:32:46 TmsT animations are awesome 04:02:48 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:05:34 -!- Asztal has joined. 04:24:28 Mm. 04:24:32 TmsT? 04:25:42 -!- Corun has joined. 04:37:12 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 05:09:43 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:21:58 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 05:41:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:53:50 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 05:54:00 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:11:02 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 07:19:02 -!- olsner has joined. 07:48:06 -!- Warrigal has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:48:10 -!- Warrigal has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:27:45 -!- oklopol has quit (Success). 08:29:29 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 08:33:40 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 08:59:20 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 09:01:08 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:35:42 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 09:42:07 -!- oklopol has joined. 09:47:15 -!- Slereah has joined. 10:01:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:05:49 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 10:05:58 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 10:05:59 -!- Slereah_ has changed nick to Slereah-. 10:08:41 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 10:09:48 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 10:09:51 -!- oklokok has joined. 10:16:51 -!- Slereah has joined. 10:29:58 -!- oklokok has quit (No route to host). 10:35:15 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:41:25 -!- Slereah- has joined. 10:47:37 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:59:31 -!- Slereah has joined. 11:16:35 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:30:31 -!- Slereah- has joined. 11:39:27 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)). 11:39:48 -!- Slereah has joined. 11:44:25 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:44:36 -!- Slereah- has joined. 11:49:52 -!- nooga has joined. 11:50:15 don't you know is there a fast way to obtain file's path from inode? 11:53:44 nooga: which one 11:53:48 an inode can have more than one path 11:54:00 and IIRC, there's no way to find its paths apart from by searching the entire filesystem 11:54:08 most filesystems can't easily determine the other end of a hard link for that reason 12:03:04 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 12:05:17 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 12:08:35 -!- oklopol has joined. 13:50:36 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:52:08 -!- Corun has joined. 13:54:30 nooga: find 13:59:31 oklopol: hi 14:06:02 hi 14:10:37 hmm 14:10:40 i forgot what i was gonna say 14:10:41 :DDDDDD 14:16:13 :) 14:16:22 i needs to eat now 14:20:59 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 14:23:25 wb ais523 14:27:26 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:34:53 -!- Slereah- has joined. 14:42:31 ^bool can i write stuff here 14:42:37 can't, huh. 14:42:42 well anyway, should i watch? 14:42:44 ^bool 14:42:44 Yes. 14:42:44 ^bool 14:42:44 Yes. 14:42:54 watch what? 14:42:55 that's quite a yes. 14:43:05 i'm watching family guy, i don't really have anything else atm 14:43:35 seen these episodes like 20 times each, so this is mostly so i don't have to do anything else. 14:44:04 i'm very tired, and i have a lot to read so i can't really sleep the 4 hours i need 14:44:24 why not just read, then 14:44:52 i'd have to open the browser. 14:45:17 i doubt you could ever understand just how lazy i can be. 14:46:14 oklopol: would it help if I sent you a link over IRC you could click on? 14:46:33 yes 14:46:52 but then there's the password i'd have to type and all that. 14:48:28 oklopol: but you're typing on irc 14:48:36 yes 14:48:38 so? 14:48:43 ;P 14:48:46 *:P 14:49:13 that's not productive. i can do that no matter how tired i am. 14:58:43 -!- Corun has joined. 15:17:52 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:22:49 http://www.baconbuzz.com/ <-- the bacon reddit now has a theme. and a domain. 15:22:59 when will the madness end?! 15:23:29 is a bacon reddit a better or stupider idea than lolcode? 15:25:16 hmm... someone put an ASCII rickroll on reddit 15:25:20 just pasted the lyrics to the song 15:25:25 somehow I don't think that counts 15:25:36 ais523: WE'RE NO STRANGERS TO LOVE 15:25:43 nowhere is safe 15:26:35 that's hardly a proper rickroll... 15:27:19 ais523: sorry, I'll continue 15:27:23 YOU KNOW THE RULES, AND SO DO I 15:27:28 A FULL COMMITMENT'S WHAT I'M THINKING OF 15:27:31 still, video or it doesn't coutn 15:27:31 YOU WOULDN'T GET THIS FROM ANY OTHER GUY 15:27:33 *count 15:27:36 I JUST WANNA TELL YOU HOW I'M FEELING 15:27:38 GOTTA MAKE YOU UNDERSTAND 15:27:39 also, IRC has /ignore 15:27:43 NEVER GONNA GIVE YOU UP, NEVER GONNA LET YOU DOWN 15:27:47 but then, I suppose you could just stop watching the rickroll 15:27:48 ais523: web has /etc/hosts 15:27:49 after a bit 15:27:58 ehird: /etc/hosts is no good at blocking rickrolls 15:28:03 also, I recited all of that from memory 15:28:07 ais523: youtube.com 127.0.0.1 15:28:08 as everyone knows there are an infinite number of rickrolls on the internet 15:28:14 would snap most of them 15:28:16 but you only have finitely much /etc/hosts space 15:28:22 but agreed, most of them are on youtube 15:28:22 well, true. 15:28:28 Rick Astley theory,. 15:28:36 come to think of it, it would be pretty hard to write a rickroll that would actually show up on my computer 15:28:44 you'd have to use .ogg, SVG or javascript 15:28:52 and even then noscript would block all those by default 15:29:00 SVG rickroll 15:29:01 brilliant 15:29:04 so you'd have to persuade me to let them through as well, although that might not be hard 15:29:08 ais523: actually 15:29:12 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:29:23 just use the table-full-of-1px-large-elements trick 15:29:26 and a meta refresh 15:29:29 dunno about the music, though 15:29:40 meta refresh? for /video/? 15:29:52 are you mad? no connection has a latency low enough to get a plausible frame rate like that 15:30:06 part from possibly if the browser and the server were the same computer 15:30:10 ais523: who says it can't be laggy? 15:30:11 -!- WOLD has joined. 15:30:17 it would be a very very slow rickroll 15:30:20 -!- WOLD has left (?). 15:30:26 it displays rick astley on yoru screen, and he acts out the video to never gonna give you up 15:30:34 the only requirement is something that can be recognized as the song 15:30:40 maybe sheet music along the bottom 15:31:05 hmm... /me invokes rule 34 on rickrolls 15:31:09 although I don't want to see the results 15:31:28 surely exists 15:31:32 yes, surely 15:31:41 that's what rule 34's all about 15:31:48 well, i mean 15:31:51 even without the rule, though, "that must exist" is an ingrained reflex 15:31:55 rule 34 just formalises it 15:32:00 the projection into digital form must surely exist 15:32:01 already 15:32:02 it's inductive reasoning 15:32:04 and yes 15:32:41 google shows nothing 15:32:59 ehird: now everyone's going to wonder why you were googling rickroll porn 15:33:09 and Google will show you rickroll-porn-related adverts 15:33:11 because of the previous lines? :P 15:33:20 because of that one search 15:33:28 i hope it shows up on the google big lcd with searches in realtime 15:33:33 also, how did you know all those lyrics? 15:33:43 from being rickrolled a lot? 15:33:52 (I assume you don't actually like the song, although I don't know) 15:34:07 being rickrolled a lot, yes 15:34:18 although the song is catchy in a kind of horrid, earworm-like "MAKE IT STOP" way 15:35:30 ugh, rickroll porn is on youtube. i should have guessed. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 15:35:37 [note - thinly veiled rickroll] 15:35:55 ehird: is it rickrolling someone to link them to a rickroll when they ask for something rickroll-related? 15:36:14 ais523: i think that's a meta-rickroll 15:36:41 I suppose the purest case would be: 15:36:45 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qmPmIJyi0sc&feature=related what the fuck, a 2 minute long guide on how to rickroll, with actual terrible acting (not a rickroll, I pledge so) 15:36:54 can you link me to a rickroll? http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 15:36:58 dose that count as rickrolling? 15:37:02 *does 15:37:03 no, it's expected 15:37:04 UNLESS 15:37:06 you said it as a joke 15:37:12 and it was in the context of you actually wanting another video 15:37:15 then the meta-irony would kick in 15:37:40 well, what if you didn't link me to a rickroll 15:37:44 could that be rickrolling? 15:37:54 what about: 15:38:02 can you link me to a rickroll? no, but see http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 instead, you might be interested in it 15:38:07 is that rickrolling? 15:38:17 ais523: if you expected it to be that video, it's not 15:38:19 if you didn't, it is. 15:48:15 -!- Slereah- has joined. 15:53:37 -!- Slereah has joined. 15:59:23 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 16:12:03 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:21:49 -!- Corun has joined. 16:24:16 -!- Ilari has joined. 16:27:10 -!- Slereah- has joined. 16:32:47 -!- nooga has quit ("Lost terminal"). 16:35:22 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 16:44:28 ais523, hi 16:44:33 hi 16:44:58 ais523, much to do in "rl" now? 16:45:28 still yes in theory for the rest of the week 16:45:36 I'm relaxing a bit today, having just completed one assignment 16:45:48 also I just realized you can over-engineer "stupid" school tasks even outside programming, or such 16:45:53 music in fact 16:46:41 at least here you have to take a short course in either music or painting during high school 16:46:44 now I took music 16:46:54 I took a full GCSE in music, only got a B though 16:47:16 and it was a task to fill in the missing notes, with mostly 4/4 (a few places with 3/4 too) 16:47:32 and one was enough free form to allow you to fill in mostly anything you wanted 16:47:37 * AnMaster put in some crazy stuff there 16:47:42 it is perfectly legal 16:47:50 but I wonder what the teacher will think 16:48:03 putting a small 3 over a group of notes is so fun :D 16:48:25 it messes up the whole timing calculation 16:48:39 AnMaster: is it written in 8/8 time? 16:48:52 ais523, no, in 4/4 sadly, that couldn't be changed 16:49:04 otherwise I would have used something unusual for it too 16:49:04 you can change time mid-song 16:49:18 jayCampbell, well it said "put in *notes* to make the timing right" 16:49:25 so I didn't dare do that 16:49:31 Note: change time here 16:49:36 are you messing with grace notes too? 16:49:41 apoggieturas are fun 16:49:45 because they have a positive length 16:49:52 equal to half the length of the next note 16:50:10 ais523, hm I don't know the English terms for these, just the Swedish 16:50:18 apoggieturas == the dots after the notes? 16:50:20 no 16:50:26 apoggietura's a type of grace note 16:50:32 so is acciacatura 16:50:41 acciacaturas are zero-length notes 16:50:55 whereas apoggieturas have a positive length equal to half the length of the note after, which has its length halved 16:51:17 * AnMaster googles to find an image 16:51:41 aha, *those* 16:51:47 no I didn't use any grace notes 16:51:55 mainly I would have been too confused myself 16:52:16 AnMaster: putting a small 3 over a group of notes is so fun :D <<< wut? 16:52:17 put in any chords where different notes in the chords had different lengths? 16:52:30 oklopol: it makes each note in the group last 2/3 as long 16:52:34 liek, three-in-place-of-two 16:52:36 yeah 16:52:52 that just felt like too much hype over such a common construct 16:52:52 ais523, yes I did that 16:52:59 * oklopol used about a hundred of those today 16:53:06 ais523, one issue is the paper you had to fill in on was rather small print 16:53:11 so it was hard to fit anything 16:54:47 I couldn't fit this (just giving lengths): 1/8, 1/8, 1/8, 1/8+dot, 1/16, 1/4, 1/8 | 1/16 16:54:53 too little space for the first 16:55:17 that's why you use grace notes, they're half the physical size 16:56:15 ais523, couldn't have fitted it in there either, the pencil would have to be sharper than possible for it 16:56:32 use an electron microscope inkjet priter, then 16:56:42 ;P 16:57:08 -!- Mony has joined. 16:57:55 plop 16:58:09 what will I eat this weekend? 16:58:11 *i 16:58:12 16:58:23 oklopol: you corrected good grammar to bad grammar? 16:58:28 ais523: yes. 16:58:33 it was not my style 16:59:07 however 16:59:13 tell meeee! 16:59:24 oklopol, Something with pasta maybe? 16:59:35 oklopol: I suggest lentil soup 16:59:50 ais523, lentil(?) soup with pasta? 16:59:57 no, not with pasta 17:00:00 even though I don't know what lentil is, that sounds awful 17:00:02 just lentil soup in general 17:00:18 AnMaster: lentils are a type of vegetable, they're sort-of like peas but much smaller and orange 17:00:29 ah found it by interwiki 17:00:31 linser 17:00:38 also, the shells are poisonous, and they're a pain to get off because they're only about 3mm across 17:00:39 well I never tasted them 17:00:47 so you go to a shop and buy lentil soup which has been made properly 17:00:53 it works well with tomatoes 17:01:09 how about something with meats? 17:01:11 ais523, I prefer home made food 17:01:21 oklopol, pasta with Swedish meatballs? 17:01:28 :D 17:01:32 well can you hand me some 17:01:39 oklopol, no because I ate them 17:01:43 * AnMaster loves that combo 17:01:44 :< 17:01:59 had it the day before yesterday 17:02:09 home made pasta and home made meatballs of course 17:02:11 * oklopol waits for ais523 to mention he's vegetarian 17:02:18 oklopol, is he? 17:02:18 *they're 17:02:18 ok 17:02:22 oklopol: eat your finger, it's delicious 17:02:26 yes, your single finger 17:02:29 humans only have one finger, y'know 17:02:40 oklopol: I'm not 17:02:40 AnMaster: i don't know whether he is. why do you ask? 17:02:52 but there are vegetarian things I like anyway, like lentil soup 17:03:00 many of them go well with meat 17:03:14 ratatouille does, for instance 17:03:14 ais523: oh, right, you just don't eat junk food 17:03:24 aaaanyway, that you eat weirdly! ;) 17:03:27 oklopol: yep, pretty rare for me to eat junk 17:03:48 ehird: i'm not a human, i'm a lizard 17:03:50 I'm pretty sure eating junk would make you gay. http://instantrimshot.com/ http://pleasemakeitstop.com/ http://atleastoerjanspunswerefunny 17:03:51 .com/ 17:03:51 ais523, I don't know what the opposite of vegitarian would be... 17:03:54 meatitarian? 17:04:00 carnivore 17:04:03 s/vegi/vege/ 17:04:06 ais523, heh 17:04:22 well I'm not that much, but I dislike fruit and such 17:04:30 I like fruit, and salad 17:04:44 I'm strange, I tend to eat healthily via liking the food, rather than for any health reason 17:05:46 i'm breatharian!! 17:05:48 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inedia 17:05:51 :P 17:07:19 ais523, I fall in the second category 17:14:12 food doesn't have squat to do with health, the way our bodies evolve over time is all due to the brain. 17:14:24 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 17:14:25 * oklopol believes 17:14:47 well yes, but oklopol, you believe in things you think are false 17:14:48 :P 17:15:14 how preposteriorly paradogmatic. 17:15:23 paradogmatic? 17:15:27 yes. 17:15:32 what does that mean? 17:15:38 that isn't a real English word I don't think 17:15:54 Did you mean: define:paradigmatic 17:15:55 but the feeling I get from it is sort of like next to a strong opinion 17:15:56 maybe not, but you know what i meant. 17:16:01 No definitions were found for paradogmatic. 17:16:13 oklopol, no I don't 17:16:18 or not, i don't care :) 17:16:19 back-translating from the Latin, it means something along the grounds of "not exactly insisting on a strong opinion, but doing something similar and parallel" 17:16:21 Did you mean: define:pre posteriorly 17:16:21 No definitions were found for preposteriorly. 17:16:26 no clue about that 17:16:29 paradogmatic: a paragliding, mechanical dog 17:16:30 that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense 17:16:48 also known as AWESOME 17:16:52 AnMaster: "preposteriorly" isn't a real word, but I can back-translate it easily, it means "in a before-afterwards sort of way" 17:17:05 ais523, that doesn't make sense either 17:17:08 well, no 17:17:18 ais523: yes, exactly what i was going for 17:17:19 but "before the afterwards" is almost a defined concept 17:17:23 oklopol, so what did you mean? In common normal words 17:17:38 I think oklopol was deliberately coining oxymoronic words to confuse us 17:17:43 AnMaster: actually preposteriorly is there just to explain the latter word. 17:17:50 oxymoronication? 17:17:53 or? 17:18:01 oxymoronicasion? 17:18:03 hm 17:18:05 no idea 17:18:09 oxymoronic = contradicting itself 17:18:11 that is a real word 17:18:14 ais523, yes I know 17:18:21 but I was trying to make a word for: 17:18:27 aquaidiotic 17:18:32 "coining oxymoronic words to confuse" 17:18:36 ehird: "water stupid"? 17:18:36 oh my god. is it healthy to write a song and then listen to it all day in awe 17:18:39 wouldn't that be "oxymoronication"? 17:18:40 like 17:18:41 oklopol: yes 17:18:45 ais523: :D 17:18:53 You are oxymoronicating that! 17:18:55 ais523, ^ 17:18:56 how very orogenic of you 17:19:20 (btw, that is a real word, but hardly a very common one, it means "with a tendency to create mountains") 17:19:30 Definitions of orogenic on the Web: 17:19:30 * Pertaining to deformation of a continental margin to the extent that a mountain range is formed. 17:19:32 ais523, yes 17:19:36 but what did you mean 17:19:44 in that meaning? 17:19:54 I didn't, I was just throwing in a rare word because it fit 17:19:58 it wasn't even a metaphor or anything 17:19:58 saying "how very orogenic of you" to oklopol I guess? 17:20:00 or to who? 17:20:04 I just said it in general 17:20:06 ah 17:20:07 knowing it was meaningless 17:20:09 well 17:20:15 well, meaningful but pointless 17:20:20 ais523, would it be "oxymoronication" or "oxymoronicasion"? 17:20:21 i feel pretty orogenic listening to this song. 17:20:31 AnMaster: probably the first 17:20:33 ok 17:20:38 but I prefer "oxymoronification" 17:20:42 (7 guitarrrs) 17:20:50 ais523, ah may indeed be better 17:20:53 * ais523 waits for oklopol to create a mountain 17:21:00 ais523: not literally. 17:21:07 would it be, "you are oxymoronificing that sentence"? 17:21:08 or what 17:21:13 mountains are massive majestetic beings. 17:21:21 can't make out what the verb of that noun would be 17:21:35 orogenising 17:21:45 not that that's at all a useful word 17:22:02 ais523, well would it be "oxymoronificing" or what? 17:22:16 oh, oxymoronifying 17:22:23 the noun was actually derived from that verb 17:22:29 oh 17:22:29 ok 17:23:00 ais523, a pitty you can't combine any number of words into a single word in English 17:23:35 okay i'll listen to this for the third time, *then* i'll do something more productive 17:23:44 it is so fun to watch any document editor try to insert hypens in a word spanning three lines 17:23:56 last I checked even tex has troubles with it 17:24:13 had* 17:24:27 you can do that in Swedish btw 17:24:41 i recall trying to make word infloop from making automatic reformattings 17:24:55 oklopol, "infloop"? 17:24:57 "a word spanning three lines", either you have a large font or a small page or that's worse than German 17:24:59 AnMaster: yes. 17:25:00 infloop. 17:25:04 AnMaster: infinite loop, presumably 17:25:10 yes, i use that all the time 17:25:11 I often abbreviate it to infiniloop 17:25:13 ais523, well it was constructed to be long 17:25:28 it isn't common 17:25:28 but you can make Word loop quite well by typing =rand(200,99) into it and pressing return 17:25:35 that's a finite loop, but on slow hardware it can take a while 17:25:36 ais523, I mean a valid word 17:25:53 ais523: interesting trivia, at least according to our lecturer, that feature was added by a finnish coder. 17:26:02 (iirc) 17:26:05 haha 17:26:07 infloop 17:26:10 that would be fun: 17:26:11 (so very reliable ! :P) 17:26:16 ifl 17:26:18 so you have 17:26:19 ifl 17:26:21 oklopol: presumably it's to generate lots of data quickly as a test 17:26:25 as a keyword in a language 17:26:25 ais523: yes 17:26:30 that you use for the main loop 17:26:37 would be confusingly similar to if 17:26:40 anyway, one thing I've always wondered: why rand 17:26:50 it's nothing to do with random number generation at all 17:26:55 * AnMaster ponders a C-like esolang but with all keywords redefined to something unexpected 17:26:59 ais523: random content 17:27:07 it isn't even random content 17:27:11 it's deterministic content 17:27:12 if = in fail 17:27:13 that is 17:27:13 random doesn't have to mean unpredictable. 17:27:15 for exceptions 17:27:17 so 17:27:20 it doesn't have to be nondeterministic. 17:27:23 hm 17:27:31 it has to be "some random shit". 17:27:41 9999999999999999999999999999999999... 17:27:43 odd rng 17:27:44 ;P 17:27:48 (okay maybe a forth time, cuz it's so short) 17:28:43 (i occasionally have some trouble perfecting passages with three main melodies simultaneously, so process is kinda slow) 17:33:11 oklopol, that sounds like way more advanced than me 17:33:41 * AnMaster has troubles writing music with more than 1 main melody (+ chords) 17:34:09 AnMaster: there's a famous Dilbert cartoon about that 17:34:11 well i am fairly good at this, at least as far as pleasing *myself* goes ;) 17:34:34 "And this is the random number generator." "Nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine..." "Are you sure that's random?" "That's the problem with randomness, it's hard to be sure." 17:34:57 well, people tend to consider my songs either pretty good or fucking insane, rarely bad. 17:36:19 (oklopol goes "wow the composer hid that one theme here, i didn't even notice on my first three listenings! :ooo" at the song :D) 17:37:09 * oklopol tried to at least stop talking about it 17:37:28 i love talking about my accomplishments, but i hate it when i talk about them. 17:37:50 i wish i could tell everyone about them, see the reaction, then make them forget. 17:38:18 superpowers, i want 17:40:32 ^bool 17:40:32 Yes. 17:41:33 oklopol: i get into that paradox a lot 17:41:39 praise me but don't remember you praised me k! 17:41:52 haha 17:41:58 also, give us the song oklopol 17:41:59 :P 17:42:07 it's not finished 17:42:14 give it anyway XD 17:42:22 i don't think i will... 17:42:44 >:( 17:43:36 ehird: anyway yeah that's it, obviously i want glory, but i don't want people to think i'm a self-loving egoist mesexual, which i most certainly am. 17:43:44 "mesexual" XD 17:43:50 :-) 17:43:54 well yeah okay i'm not that 17:43:54 I am mesexual 17:44:04 I just performed an act of mesexuality 17:44:34 tmi Slereah- 17:44:49 did you... did you just make a masturbation joke? that was so unexpected i just had to make sure i got it right 17:44:53 ^bool 17:44:53 No. 17:45:19 It was not a joke :( 17:48:09 * oklopol listens to another song of his, and it's much less divine :< 17:48:09 oklopol: it's Slereah-, why are you surprised? 17:51:12 ehird: are you trying to sarcastrated my comment? 17:51:17 *sarcastrate 17:51:23 ? 17:51:29 * oklopol hates failing jokes that are already too complex to understand 17:52:36 hi GregorR 18:00:10 -!- Corun has joined. 18:01:12 -!- oklopol has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | where am i?. 18:06:28 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 18:08:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:09:10 you're in a maze of twisty internet memes, all alike. 18:09:20 oerjan: been logreading? 18:09:53 didn't have to look far 18:10:03 that was just for the topic 18:10:24 otherwise, i'm just starting 18:11:08 i usually log in before reading logs, so i know where to stop 18:14:40 but you only have finitely much /etc/hosts space 18:15:10 oerjan: well, yes 18:15:18 there are an infinite number of rickrolls, how could you block them all? 18:15:26 clearly it should be a system call or something, so you could do it programatically 18:15:35 Well, he is no stranger to love 18:16:47 hm you could make a dns service 18:17:12 here.domain.put.rickrolltest.com 18:17:57 similar to some anti-spam blackhole lists 18:18:15 it's easy enough, just have a static page returning "true" 18:18:21 Well, you know, you can always make a new rickroll link 18:18:49 i guess a proper test needs the full URL 18:19:04 there's probably a firefox plugin to block rickrolls :D 18:19:12 oerjan: http://willitgivemeup.com/youtube.com/?v=3489768f7dsf 18:19:30 true = normal page 18:19:32 false = rick astley alert 18:19:39 it could just analyze all videos it could find 18:19:48 http://youtube.com.willitgivemeup.com/?v=3489768f7dsf seems neater to me for some reason 18:20:08 hmm... you could have a rickroll-blocking proxy, I suppose 18:20:12 oh it doesn't exist 18:20:15 ais523: just use greasemonkey 18:20:21 and people would send encrypted rickrolls to try to get round it 18:20:24 when you hit a page, it hits willitgivemeup.com 18:20:27 and asks it 18:20:32 admittedly, that's a privacy issue 18:20:37 you could restrict certain domains, I guess 18:20:39 wait 18:20:40 what if the page checked for the IP 18:20:43 it wouldn't hit it quick enough 18:20:43 damn 18:20:53 ais523: make it download the video locally 18:20:56 then send it for analysis 18:20:56 and served different content depending on whether it came from willitgivemeup.com or a user's main part 18:21:15 your computer downloads the video 18:21:16 also, how do you tell programmatically if a video is a rickroll or not 18:21:19 then willitgivemeup.com analyzes it 18:21:32 ais523: well, just do some analysis to see if it's the video or a trivial changing of it 18:21:37 and then check the audio 18:21:38 try and analyze it 18:21:40 stuff. 18:21:41 "trivial changing"? 18:21:51 http://rickrolldb.com/ 18:21:57 it just had to exist 18:22:09 -!- atrapado has joined. 18:22:18 oerjan: is that a page full of known and suspected rickrolls? 18:22:24 yep 18:22:31 for all I know, it's actually a rickroll itself, designed to con people looking for anti-rickroll tactics 18:22:35 nope. 18:22:43 well, if it is, it probably uses Flash 18:22:47 nope 18:22:52 err 18:22:53 oh 18:22:59 Anyway, what's your problem with rickrolls? 18:23:02 it's a great song! 18:23:11 i think it's a very neutral song 18:23:20 so, why are all of them voted about 60% rickroll? 18:23:29 it's not good, it's not bad, it's not annoying, it's not catchy, it's not funny, it's not weird 18:23:35 hm their voting system is broken right 18:23:40 yeah, i wondered about that too 18:23:41 ais523: the kind of people who would vote on such a thing are also huge jerks who like people being rick rolled, I assume 18:23:59 maybe 40% of them are 18:24:45 oklopol: so what you are saying is we need to start weirdaling people instead 18:25:32 maybe we should invent an INTERCAL version of rickrolling 18:25:36 surprisingly that term does not exist yet 18:25:38 heh, I typoed that as ickrolling 18:25:45 which would be a good name for it 18:26:03 YES! 18:26:10 and I didn't even have the pun in mind when I started typing, must be my fingers typing puns by themselves 18:26:20 like the time I typoed "I hope" as "i hope" twice when talking to Warrigal 18:26:30 in a context where "ihope" would have made sense 18:26:46 -!- atrapado_ has joined. 18:27:08 ickrolling would work great on programming forums 18:27:18 yes 18:27:26 the question is, can we generate enough INTERCAL to make it work? 18:27:31 or would it be the same program each time? 18:27:48 "Your problem can be solved with this little code snippet: [link]" 18:28:18 would the snippet always be a correct solution to the problem? 18:28:31 or just any old snippet, maybe obfuscated INTERCAL printing "You've been ickrolled!" 18:28:37 or "Just another ickroller," 18:28:39 or whatever 18:28:50 never gonna ick you up 18:29:11 oh an intercal program printing the lyrics 18:29:44 printing the whole lyrics would be a pretty massive INTERCAL program 18:29:45 would be a bit too obscure though, since most people wouldn't get to actually running it 18:29:50 unless it was an easter-egg in the compiler 18:30:05 just take something undefined and put it there 18:30:06 yapp could generate an ickroll pretty easily 18:30:10 but it would be obviously generated code 18:30:12 i'm sure intercal has lots of that 18:30:21 hmm. that hard to output :| 18:30:28 oklopol: INTERCAL has no strings 18:30:47 so you have to initialise the arrays with numbers somehow 18:30:51 I suppose you could use compression 18:30:52 -!- atrapado has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:31:02 and save space by using Baudot rather than ASCII, rickrolling is mostly letters 18:31:09 *ickrolling 18:31:20 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:31:23 you could fit 5 chars to the 32-bit variable that way 18:31:27 -!- atrapado_ has changed nick to atrapado. 18:32:39 32-bit is not that interesting since you only have 16-bit numerals 18:32:48 ais523: oh, right 18:32:49 oerjan: you can easily mingle them, though 18:32:57 and store in a 32-bit array 18:33:03 yeah but it won't shorten the program 18:33:04 the lyrics are, like, song lyrics, they're pretty long :D 18:33:08 * oklopol didn't realize 18:33:08 oerjan: yes it will 18:33:42 DO;1SUB#1<-#12345$#54321 is shorter than DO,1SUB#1<-#12345DO,1SUB#2<-#54321 18:33:51 not to mention that the second version needs twice as many pleases 18:33:52 well true 18:34:20 the shortest known INTERCAL quine has no whitespace at all IIRC 18:34:33 INTERCAL doesn't actually need it, it's just there for readability 18:34:39 that's sort of obvious then 18:35:05 yep 18:35:21 so is that mingle into 32-bit the definite shortest way of initializing? 18:35:41 someone beat me to making a low-tech rickroll 18:35:41 I haven't seen a shorter way, although that doesn't mean there isn't one 18:35:43 http://tobi-x.com/kate_moss_nude/ 18:35:51 marquee, background gif, and embedded midi 18:35:52 is that a rickroll? 18:35:56 yes 18:36:04 also, midi? 18:36:08 yes 18:36:09 midi 18:36:14 it's like 1996! 18:36:16 oh, and marquee for the lyrics 18:36:20 no lyrics 18:36:21 just marquee 18:36:31 what does the marquee display, if not lyrics? 18:36:38 "You've been Rick Rolled" 18:36:49 it should display the lyrics, ideally in time with the music 18:37:09 that would be hard 18:37:10 :P 18:37:51 not really, given that only one thing supports marquee you just time to its implementation 18:37:57 by inserting extra spaces, probably 18:40:16 ais523: if you expected it to be that video, it's not 18:40:27 ouch, russell paradox rickrolling 18:40:35 that's one bad singer 18:41:25 * oklopol can't see el paradox 18:42:07 oklopol: it's a reference to the logs 18:42:37 a rickroll being a rickroll only if you don't expect to be rickrolled 18:43:04 yes, if you ask someone for a rickroll, and they give you a rickroll, have you been rickrolled? 18:43:55 ais523: no 18:44:15 oklopol: I suggest lentil soup 18:44:24 oerjan: what about it? 18:44:32 i guess historically the advent time is a lent 18:44:40 ... 18:44:41 >__< 18:44:43 so lentil soup is very appropriate 18:44:43 ah, yes, although I don't know if there's a connection 18:44:50 that was AWFUL, oerjan 18:44:54 besides, Lent's before Easter, not Christmas 18:45:00 ehird: it was not an intended pun 18:45:02 at least, the big official one everyone talks about 18:45:18 http://qntm.org/?lent Yay! Lent! 18:45:26 well there were many small ones. almost every friday, i think 18:45:59 i guess the catholics may still recommend it 18:46:04 [[Lent was invented in 1809 by an Englishman named Wilhelm Lent. It was originally a forty-day diet plan, during which people would forgo certain foods in order to lose weight for Easter. On Sundays these restrictions were temporarily lifted and you could eat anything you liked; that's why Sundays don't count as part of Lent (see above). Wilhelm Lent is also the inventor of lentils!]] 18:46:11 [[Sundays these restrictions were temporarily lifted and you could eat anything you liked; that's why Sundays don't count as part of Lent (see above). Wilhelm Lent is also the inventor of lentils!]]]] 18:46:23 Hm, I wonder how close to singing you could get with a midi file, without cheating with custom instruments or anything. GM has a rather nice set of instruments, some of which have rather predictable waveforms, and you can additively mix at least 24 voices together and change them quite often, and other tricks. 18:48:33 hm i guess lent is not the correct term for other periods, but fasting 18:53:41 * oerjan discovers to his surprise that "lent" and "lentil" are not really related words 18:55:24 -!- cherez has joined. 18:55:36 -!- cherez has left (?). 18:58:02 What about dent and dental 18:58:05 DENTAL PLAN 18:59:32 AnMaster: there's a famous Dilbert cartoon about that <-- guess what I quoted... 18:59:47 and why I selected 9 18:59:52 -!- atrapado has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:01:22 dent 19:01:23 c.1325, "a strike or blow," dialectal variant of M.E. dint (q.v.); sense of "indentation" first recorded 1565, apparently infl. by indent. 19:01:24 That selfsame Dilbert cartoon was last talked about on this channel 2008-10-17, with both AnMaster and ais523 present. 19:01:52 -!- atrapado has joined. 19:02:02 fizzie: hahaha 19:02:05 dint 19:02:06 O.E. dynt "blow dealt in fighting" (especially by a sword), from P.Gmc. *duntiz. Phrase by dint of ... "by force of, by means of," is c.1330. 19:02:06 fizzie, um... why did you bother to check 19:02:44 AnMaster: Why not? I'll do that next time, too. :p 19:02:53 dental 19:02:53 1594, from M.Fr. dental "of teeth," from L. dens (gen. dentis) "tooth," from PIE base *dont-, *dent- (see tooth). 19:03:04 seems unrelated 19:03:55 especially since "tooth" is the cognate of the last one 19:09:12 also, the shells are poisonous, and they're a pain to get off because they're only about 3mm across 19:09:18 [citation needed] 19:09:40 oerjan: this is from memory, it may be exaggerated 19:09:43 Weasel words! 19:09:49 besides which, I've never seen a whole lentil either 19:09:54 only the factory-processed forms 19:14:20 "I have never seen a lentil plant, never met anyone involved in lentil agricultural production, or even seen such a person on television, so I can only conclude that lentil's are actually a manufactured food product, possibly made from meat by-products. The plant origin is part of the marketing campaign, akin to Keebler crackers being baked by elves in a hollow tree. Until I see photographic evidence to the contrary, I will beleive that a lentil plan 19:14:32 that's bound to have been cut off somewhere 19:14:34 a lentil plan- 19:15:12 a lentil plant is a brick structure with smoke-billowing chimneys, somewhere in the Chicago stockyard district. 19:15:26 (from WP Talk:Lentil) 19:15:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lentil_diseases 19:15:46 wow, only on Wikipedia 19:18:32 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:24:40 "This bad reputation may possibly be. due to the substitution of the seeds of the bitter vetch or tare lentil,, Ervum Ervilia, a plant which closely resembles the true lentil in, height, habit, flower and pod, but whose seeds are without doubt possessed of deleterious properties - producing weakness or even paralysis of the extremities in horses which have partaken of them.. The poisonous principle seems to reside chiefly in the bitter seed coat, and 19:24:57 that may be relevant 19:25:43 ... and can apparently be removed by steeping in water ... 19:26:19 (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Lentil) 19:26:41 ok, so there's a plant which looks very like a lentil with a poisonous shell 19:26:50 at least that would explain why I thought lentil shells were poisonous 19:28:06 http://elonstruths.blogspot.com/2006/10/its-in-blood.html is sort of amusing 19:28:39 (about poisonous lentils, but...) 19:30:09 -!- jayCampbell has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | esolentil. 19:32:30 well can you hand me some 19:32:49 swedish meatballs can be found at your nearest IKEA restaurant 19:34:55 I know, I saw the Simpsons episode too 19:35:04 ais523, I don't know what the opposite of vegitarian would be... 19:35:22 A carnivore, mayhaps 19:35:34 Or like a dude who would eat anything but plants. 19:35:44 Slereah-, the latter 19:35:48 Like bricks and metal and large clouds of ionized gas 19:35:52 ah no 19:35:58 then I guess carnivore 19:36:10 For the hard-core anti-vegetarian: eat only animals that eat other animals. 19:36:17 fizzie, haha :D 19:36:22 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitlew8o9d7bzvtia 19:36:30 (standard tvtropes warning) 19:36:31 That's stupid, fizzie 19:36:40 That means there would be less carnivore! 19:36:45 Hence less animals being eaten 19:36:59 Slereah-, err it would be like anti-vegan 19:37:31 anti-veganism* 19:37:49 Hm. 19:37:52 Anti-veganism 19:38:02 To consume only products derived from animals? 19:38:10 Like instead of salt, you use bacon bits 19:38:29 what about baconsalt.com 19:39:08 I looked it up 19:39:13 It has no meat in it, ehird 19:39:18 I know 19:39:21 but 19:39:24 bacon. salt. 19:50:32 0.0. 19:50:55 nothing, period. 20:27:33 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:29:24 hi ais523 20:29:31 wb me 20:32:09 -!- Slereah- has joined. 20:46:38 hmm. Slereah- has a point, maybe an anti-vegetarian should only eat vegetarian humans 20:48:24 ONE HOUR LATER 21:30:22 -!- atrapado_ has joined. 21:30:42 -!- atrapado has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:30:45 -!- atrapado_ has changed nick to atrapado. 21:46:26 -!- Judofyr has joined. 21:55:18 ais523, I don't know what the opposite of vegitarian would be... 21:55:20 omnivore 21:55:28 no, omnivores eat everything 21:55:34 we were wondering what ate just meat specifically 21:55:38 I think it's "carnivore" 21:55:40 then carnivore, yes 21:55:52 hydrovore? 21:56:03 you drink water not eat it, I think 21:56:14 what about fish who eat those critters that aren't plants but aren't animals 21:57:05 protozoovore? 21:57:24 what about fungivore? 21:57:32 IIRC, fungi aren't plants 21:57:46 although a fungivore could equally well be a Befunge-eater 21:57:50 zooplanktovore 21:57:52 or other funges in general 21:58:03 jayCampbell: zooplankton are animals, aren't they? 21:58:07 technically speaking? 21:59:19 Hence the zoo. 21:59:48 phytoplankovores 22:00:42 sounds like gwar's opening act 22:00:52 Nah. 22:01:00 It's more of a "Pedonecrophilia" 22:01:24 xenovore 22:01:32 i only eat aliens 22:01:40 Like Mexicans? 22:02:37 don't call me shirley 22:03:38 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:03:41 Surely you can't be serious. 22:06:57 * oerjan detects a time anomaly 22:07:39 It may be a time quantum flux with neutrinos. Phase. 22:08:07 Slereah-: What do you think it may be? 22:08:31 "Zooplankton are the heterotrophic (sometimes detritivorous) type of plankton." 22:09:26 Well, if it's got more than one cell, it's an animal. Or a mushroom, but there's the zoo in there. 22:10:18 animals are a kingdom, nowadays. there are lots of other heterotrophs 22:11:25 But how many that are multicellulars? 22:11:33 There's pretty much only mushrooms. 22:12:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:13:23 -!- Asztal has quit ("."). 22:19:17 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:19:58 -!- kar8nga has joined. 22:20:38 -!- decipher has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:27:41 -!- lament has joined. 22:32:37 -!- Corun has joined. 22:36:59 -!- decipher has joined. 22:57:23 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:58:42 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 23:04:18 -!- Judofyr has quit. 23:14:38 -!- jayCampbell has quit ("tahoe"). 23:26:24 -!- moozilla has joined. 23:28:15 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:48:06 La, la, la, la, paraphyletic. 23:48:49 :-) 23:48:54 * oerjan sics a reptile on Warrigal 23:50:02 So, we had prokaryotes, and then really weird stuff happened and we got eukaryotes. 23:50:28 * oerjan swats Warrigal with an invertebrate 23:50:57 oerjan: stop being violent :P 23:50:58 * oerjan finally slaps Warrigal with a fish 23:51:09 i'm just being paraphyletic 23:51:09 Did every proto-eukaryote that didn't have all the features of eukaryotes die out? 23:51:18 Fish are paraphyletic? 23:51:31 yep 23:51:39 they're our ancestors 23:51:45 Oh, cool. 23:52:38 Do they have a well-defined last common ancestor? 23:52:58 "Haskell was made by some really smart guys (with PhDs). Work on Haskell began in 1987 when a committee of researchers got together to design a kick-ass language." 23:53:02 I like this tutorial already. 23:53:10 (Or "concestor", I should say.) 23:53:30 [[I don't have a Mac but I've heard that if you have MacPorts, you can get GHC by doing sudo port install ghc. Also, I think you can do Haskell development with that wacky mouse with one button, although I'm not sure.]] 23:54:59 Warrigal: i think everything has, the question is whether it was a fish 23:56:09 Indeed. 23:56:47 * Warrigal looks up horizontal gene transfer to see if a human can get genes from a dog 23:58:22 Since Wikipedia doesn't say, the answer is yes. 23:59:22 actually i just a moment ago read that tree of life applies cleanly to eukaryotes because they don't have such things 23:59:26 on wp 2008-12-06: 00:00:37 well that was the essence 00:01:50 I just a moment ago read that there has been horizontal gene transfer from bacteria to fungi and perhaps between two eukaryotes, on Wikipedia. 00:02:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_life_(science) 00:02:39 blasphemy! eukaryotes must be perfect! 00:03:16 That article implies but does not actually state that horizontal gene transfer does not occur between eukaryotes. 00:03:51 heh @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tree_of_life_by_Haeckel.jpg 00:05:02 * lament wonders what haeckel meant by "egg-animals" 00:05:05 So we're most closely related to either bats or sloths. 00:05:13 "There is some evidence that even higher plants and animals have been affected and this has raised concerns for safety." 00:05:24 That looks like it says "Ovwaria". 00:05:52 ovulaira? 00:05:54 ovularia 00:06:35 http://nomen.at/Ovularia 00:06:37 That's consistent, if "ul" looks like an au-ligature. 00:06:58 they're however completely missing from wikipedia 00:07:27 length' xs = sum [1 | _ <- xs] 00:07:29 okay that is clever. 00:08:13 length' xs = sum [1 | sum <- xs] 00:08:19 Same thing, only more confusing. 00:09:01 Warrigal: Well done. 00:09:52 length' xs = sum [1 | length' <- xs], as well. I don't know if length' xs = sum [1 | xs <- xs] would work. 00:10:51 works in hugs 00:11:14 i like length' xs = sum [1 | length' <- xs] 00:11:41 lament: you can't like it 00:11:42 it's Haskell 00:12:08 I think length' xs = sum [1 | 1 <- xs] would give a type error and then a pattern match error. 00:12:23 You could only use it on lists of Num, and then all the elements have to be 1. 00:12:36 no 00:12:42 Warrigal: syntax error 00:12:46 you can't do "1 = 2" 00:12:49 which that boils down to 00:12:51 kinda 00:12:58 ehird: you tried it? 00:12:59 actually you can 00:13:02 huh 00:13:03 you can? 00:13:04 :o 00:13:29 , I think length' xs = sum [1 | 1 <- xs] will work just fine, though it might make xs be a list of 00:13:43 it counts the number of 1s in the list 00:13:52 Actually Num. 00:13:55 -!- decipher has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:14:04 oerjan: cut 00:14:04 e 00:14:28 List comprehensions just throw out things not matching the pattern? 00:14:32 yep 00:14:52 just like do expressions 00:15:09 oerjan: 00:15:15 do (x:xs) <- []; ... 00:15:19 surely that is an error? 00:15:27 It's only an error if you evaluate x or xs. 00:15:35 Haskell is lazy, after all. 00:15:39 -!- decipher has joined. 00:15:46 that has nothing to do with it 00:15:58 Likewise, I think 1 = 2 is only an error if you evaluate one of the variables on the left hand side. There are none. 00:16:01 do ... <- []; always shortcuts 00:16:15 Warrigal: that's true 00:16:31 but <- is not quite lazy 00:16:31 huh, "let 1 = 2" works 00:16:32 ouch 00:16:46 it does check the pattern before continuing 00:17:20 ehird: actually you probably meant do (x:xs) <- [[]]; ... 00:17:34 nope 00:17:38 i was trying to get an error 00:17:39 :P 00:17:45 sure you did 00:18:01 let False = True works the same way, I believe. 00:18:13 (x:xs) <- [] does not actually put anything in x or xs 00:18:30 because there are no list elements to match against 00:18:35 exactly 00:18:45 no 00:18:48 but you said do blocks throw away non-matchers 00:19:07 i mean there is no list element to match the _whole_ of (x:xs) against 00:19:13 ah 00:19:22 thus you want <- [[]] 00:20:06 that could have given an error, except it actually gives a fail "match error" which is [] 00:21:02 so none of those give a real error 00:21:26 however, do ~(x:xs) <- [[]]; ... will give an error if x or xs is used 00:22:02 the ~ makes the pattern lazy 00:23:42 bye 00:23:48 -!- Mony has quit ("Hey Hoy let go !"). 00:41:16 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 00:43:04 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 01:15:10 -!- Corun has joined. 01:15:45 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 01:32:08 -!- Warrigal has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:39:22 -!- Warrigal has joined. 02:02:03 -!- Warrigal has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:02:22 -!- Warrigal has joined. 02:09:35 -!- Warrigal has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:10:01 -!- Warrigal has joined. 02:38:44 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:43:13 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 03:34:54 -!- olsner has joined. 03:53:22 -!- kwertii has joined. 04:46:22 -!- Asztal has joined. 05:33:44 This channel is now officially boring. Let's discuss artificial intelligence. 05:35:29 Fantasy: Eliezer Yudkowsky is right about AI destroying the world if we're not careful. 05:36:23 So, I read about EURISKO (Yudkowsky is also right about it being the most sophisticated self-modifying AI in existence), improve it, and eventually end up with an explosive self-modifying AI on my laptop. 05:36:48 That is, on a spare laptop that has no Internet connection. 05:37:07 But won't it get lonely? 05:37:14 I solve a Millennium Prize Problem with the AI, winning $1,000,000 and getting Yudkowsky's attention. 05:37:27 No, it'll be able to play with different parts of itself. 05:37:31 And I'll talk to it. 05:38:26 So, I send a copy of the AI to Yudkowsky, he agrees that it's easy to make safe for release, and we release it, and the Technological Singularity happens, and everybody's really happy. 05:38:31 This will happen over Christmas break. 06:33:06 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 07:18:25 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit. 07:18:45 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:18:30 http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/vn-fredkin.pfk 08:43:46 And at 2:14 AM (EST), August 29th, 1997, EURISKO (improved) will become self-aware, and instantaneously decide that humanity must be destroyed. 08:46:36 -!- Dewi has quit ("leaving"). 09:11:15 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:19:44 -!- M0ny has joined. 09:20:16 plop 09:20:36 Yo 09:20:55 ça va ? 09:21:10 On fait aller, et toi? 09:21:20 idem 09:21:33 petit mal de tête au levée 09:23:00 err? 09:23:02 what= 09:23:04 ? 09:23:23 FRONCH 09:24:10 -!- kwertii has quit ("bye"). 09:25:35 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 09:28:53 -!- pgimeno has left (?). 09:47:08 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:11:59 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:15:09 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:30:10 -!- Slereah has joined. 10:47:42 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:54:09 -!- kar8nga has joined. 12:34:43 i don't understand french :< 12:35:50 héhé 12:36:31 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:38:01 Let's make a French esolang, just to annoy oklopol 12:38:55 there is that one really crappy and stupid one 12:39:02 JUST LIKE FRENCH ALWAYS IS 12:39:04 wait 12:39:07 that was just stupid 12:39:11 anyway teach it 12:39:12 to me 12:39:12 now 12:39:24 OMELETTE DU FROMAGE 12:39:38 i understand the first word 12:39:48 i'm assuming the latter is either "gay" or "hobbit" 12:40:29 "du" is a preposition, i'm guessing "outside of, but still feeling as if not" 12:42:14 mdr Slereah 12:42:24 c'était dans Dexter ça XD 12:42:59 yeah, dexter is a pretty tight dancer 12:43:01 http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=z_2V7g3jkVo 12:43:14 Dexter is a little genius 12:43:20 from a cartoon 12:43:24 o rly 12:44:07 no fake 12:44:20 well, really i know that only because "dexter" has become a normal english term 12:44:38 and it means ? 12:44:49 a pretty tight dancer ? 12:45:48 hmm. actually it's not from the show. 12:48:02 M0ny: yes very pretty 12:51:50 -!- Judofyr has quit. 13:00:54 -!- Corun has joined. 13:30:14 -!- Judofyr has joined. 13:36:21 -!- Slereah- has joined. 13:54:16 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:04:35 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:04:42 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:09:01 -!- Slereah has joined. 14:20:57 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 14:26:37 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:36:41 -!- Slereah- has joined. 14:37:31 -!- LolaCL has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:37:59 -!- LolaCL has joined. 14:42:49 -!- Dewi has joined. 14:45:56 -!- LolaCL has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:47:02 -!- LolaCL has joined. 14:48:34 -!- ehird has set topic: Abstraction is not clever. -- reddit comment | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 14:53:47 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 14:59:49 -!- kar8nga has joined. 15:01:26 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:36:54 -!- MisterOrange has joined. 15:45:59 -!- Slereah- has joined. 15:51:58 -!- Corun has joined. 15:52:22 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 15:52:49 -!- Corun has joined. 16:00:36 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:08:05 And I'll talk to it. 16:08:24 Yudkowsky claims even that is unsafe 16:10:10 and he has twice won in a simulated challenge to prove it 16:14:32 Yudkowsky's the Black Box Challenge guy, too? 16:16:34 what black box challenge? 16:20:16 http://yudkowsky.net/singularity/aibox 16:21:15 Close enough. 16:23:57 oh that thing 16:24:12 i'd like to see the retard who he convinced to get him out 16:24:20 i mean what the fuck 16:24:27 two of them 16:24:36 "talk for two hours, and don't press this button." 16:25:00 are the conversations public? 16:25:03 no 16:25:03 no 16:25:14 i like how oklopol and psygnisfive read yudowsky's other articles, e.g. mundane magic, and talk about how they're all awesome 16:25:18 whip out the ai box, oh that's just going too far 16:25:21 he's obviously an idiot 16:25:35 ehird: what's mundane magic? 16:25:42 oklopol: article of his linked a while back 16:25:50 http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/mundane-magic.html 16:25:54 i'm not saying he's not right, i'm saying it's clear that experiment can't succeed 16:26:09 in a real life situation, yes, of course it could happen. 16:26:28 oklopol: i would say the conclusion of the experiment is that humans are way over-confident. no one believes they will let it out, still they do. 16:26:41 (well, some probably believe it) 16:26:52 ehird: that looks very boring, have i really read it and talked about it? 16:27:06 well, psygnisfive at least did 16:27:29 oerjan: i'm one of those over-confident ones. 16:27:31 oklopol: just because a random person on irc is incredulous to it doesn't mean it doesn't work. 16:27:36 yes, of course I think i'd be able to pass it 16:27:38 who doesn't? 16:27:56 but the arguments presented, and the mailing threads linked to, make me curious and not so dismissive 16:28:03 AI says, "You can talk for 2 hours in exchange for $20. I don't think that's a good deal." and then is quiet. 16:28:16 theory: he paypals $50 to them to say they let it out after a few hours and skips the test 16:28:16 XP 16:28:41 if the conversations aren't public, there's no reason to believe he didn't cheat 16:28:50 oklopol: yes, but there's no reason to believe he did 16:28:56 considering the mailing threads linked to 16:28:59 and the protocols outlined 16:29:06 i can't think of any non-cheating arguments for the ai guy 16:29:06 i mean 16:29:15 so yeah i think it's very probably he cheated. 16:29:22 oklopol: yudkowsky is a clever, rational, and honest guy on overcomingbias, etc 16:29:31 why would he suddenly cheat, even though -nobody- believes hima nyway? 16:29:31 that's definitely something where only "outside the box" things work 16:29:41 oklopol: how can he cheat? 16:29:52 the other person declares whether he won, after all 16:30:04 i dunno, and i don't have to answer you, the onus is on him. 16:30:20 that would be so simple to prove, yet he doesn't 16:30:42 oklopol: don't you think he might have a reason? 16:30:55 being so dismissive and ignoring arguments is not a sign of great reason... 16:31:07 urr? 16:31:40 yeah there probably is a reason, probably he didn't want people to see he cheated 16:31:57 hm i see. 16:32:17 "18:30… ehird: being so dismissive and ignoring arguments is not a sign of great reason..." <<< was this about me? i don't see the relevance 16:32:25 i didn't say i'm a great reasoner 16:32:25 so what we need is a test person who is not only confident, but also unbribable 16:32:26 oklopol: so explain why he'd cheat when he knows nobody believes him anyway, and he has nothing to gain from cheating, and why didn't the participants, who disbelieved him just as much as you, reveal him, and why would he suddenly cheat after being an honest, rational guy everywhere else? 16:32:31 answer that 16:32:59 ehird: that's a great mystery. 16:33:14 oklopol: applying occam's razor, i'm inclined to believe he doesn't cheat over your unfounded, unjustified word 16:33:51 ehird: w/e; anyway, would be nice to see whether that actually works, psygnis and ihope tried it once, methinks 16:34:05 but that didn't work somehow 16:34:06 oklopol: but that was retarded 16:34:07 iirc 16:34:10 was it now 16:34:20 why? 16:34:29 yudkowsky's whole life is devoted to ai research 16:34:34 and he obviously has a trick to it 16:34:48 yeah, that's another possible reason for not showing the conversations 16:34:49 psygnisfive vs ihope to prove whether it can be done is stupid 16:35:00 because it's just not even relevant 16:35:10 yeah i'm not saying they could've shown it *doesn't* work 16:35:16 they could've shown it works 16:35:21 well, yes 16:35:28 which would've been pretty awesome 16:35:33 but convincing psygnisfive of anything is pretty hard :-P 16:35:36 i'd definitely like to see whether that works 16:36:00 oklopol: of course, if presented with a log from yudkowsky you'd probably say "that was retarded, i wouldn't fall for that" 16:36:02 i mean, who wouldn't 16:36:46 dunno. maybe people who are idiots, and don't know it? 16:36:53 i meant 16:36:56 *mean 16:36:59 the opposite :) 16:37:03 wait 16:37:03 i'm an idiot and i know it 16:37:03 :D 16:37:13 wait wait this is getting too complicated for me ;) 16:37:35 who wouldn't, err, the people who wouldn't are exactly those who are stupid and know it 16:37:55 so yeah, the minority you're in 16:38:19 MINORITIES? 16:38:21 WHERE? 16:38:34 MINORS? 16:38:35 WHERE? 16:39:10 maybe i should contact yudkowsky and ask for him to do the experiment with me 16:39:30 oklopol: read the page again 16:39:39 i didn't read the page 16:39:39 specifically 16:39:46 GET 'EM BOYS 16:39:58 anyway 16:40:02 oklopol: 16:40:02 my original point about this 16:40:07 oklopol: oklopol oklopol 16:40:08 isn't exactly that i don't believe in that 16:40:09 it's more 16:40:16 that it doesn't really matter whether i do 16:40:19 because who gives a fuck 16:40:27 [[Currently, my policy is that I only run the test with people who are actually advocating that an AI Box be used to contain transhuman AI as part of their take on Singularity strategy, and who say they cannot imagine how even a transhuman AI would be able to persuade them.]] 16:40:49 what might be interesting would be things that may want a human to let the ai out. 16:40:57 and then proof of those 16:41:20 ehird: well okay, then it may well be i'm qualified for the test in the future 16:41:27 I advocate that an AI Box be used to contain transhuman AI as part of my take on Singularity strategy, and say that I cannot imagine how even a transhuman AI would be able to persuade me if I'm offere $100 not to be persuaded. 16:42:09 Warrigal: you are not a well-known ai researcher specializing in singularity :P 16:43:00 indeed, i assumed that was required 16:43:06 otherwise i'm already qualified too 16:44:26 was the experiment done on people who actually did it because they didn't believe it would work both times? 16:44:30 and no i won't read the page. 16:44:41 then i won't tell you 16:44:41 :P 16:45:02 k 16:45:26 but 16:45:27 yes 16:45:57 that makes it pretty much impossible to believe 16:46:51 anyway that's definitely a phenomenon that should be studied further 16:47:35 actually, for certain things believing strongly you will never do it is a sign that you might subconsciously have a desire to do so... 16:48:16 and might snap under the right circumstances 16:48:18 i don't really believe in the subconscious. 16:48:28 but if that's true, would be awesome to see it 16:48:42 * oklopol needs to get famous, fast 16:48:45 oerjan: homophobia :p 16:49:09 yeah that's a well-known example 16:49:31 your MOM is a well-known example 16:49:34 o h s n a p 16:49:36 yes, a well-known example of something that's only true in movies made for idiots 16:50:19 homophobic people find gayness distracting, and thus are less likely to turn gay. 16:50:43 What about people afraid of death? 16:50:50 haha 16:50:51 oklopol: gayness distracting, what 16:50:51 XD 16:51:06 * oerjan watches as both he and oklopol are about to be crushed by giant following [citation needed] signs 16:51:07 ehird: distracting maybe have been a bad choice of words :D 16:51:15 *falling 16:51:18 oerjan: i'm just going by experience 16:51:26 ehird: i mean like, "not nice" :D 16:51:37 brb 16:51:37 "distracting" actually gave quite a different connotation. 16:51:38 One theory is that Yudkowsky convinces the gatekeeper that they should "let him out" because that will encourage friendly AI research. 16:51:47 Warrigal: hahah 16:51:47 XD 16:52:04 Warrigal: that would be cheating 16:52:14 yo 16:52:16 I am often distracted by gay sex 16:52:23 you ALL HAVE NEW COLOURS NOW 16:52:25 oklopol you are blue 16:52:27 slereah you are orange 16:52:30 COLLOQUY THEMES WOO 16:52:36 Yay : 16:52:37 :D 16:52:44 NEVER HAVE I BEEN MORE ANGRY OR ORANGE 16:52:45 hmm this thing needs more line spacing 16:52:51 oklopol: which rule prohibits it? 16:52:56 that's why i can't believe it, everything i can think of, and apparently everything other people can speculate, is pretty much cheating. it only works *in an experiment* 16:53:04 -!- comexk has joined. 16:53:10 Warrigal: nothing. it's just that beats the point of the whole experiment. 16:53:28 hi comex 16:53:30 "let me out so this test works! here's why that's good for you" 16:54:24 -!- comex has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:54:25 oklopol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection 16:54:46 okay so 16:54:47 poop 16:54:51 you no longer have colours 16:54:51 because 16:54:53 i hate your lifes 16:54:56 ehird: but 16:54:59 i like blue 16:55:04 yeah well 16:55:05 oh no i'm all black 16:55:06 eat your butts. 16:55:08 oerjan: no. 16:55:09 orange. 16:55:24 oerjan: i don't believe in that either 16:55:25 but you said i didn't have color 16:55:30 complete bullcrap 16:55:31 -!- Judofyr has quit. 16:56:27 To understand the process, consider a person in a couple who has thoughts of infidelity. Instead of dealing with these undesirable thoughts consciously, he or she subconsciously projects these feelings onto the other person, and begins to think that the other has thoughts of infidelity and may be having an affair. <<< seriously, i hate this movie already 16:56:42 oklopol: i predict that you will have a crisis one day that will prove to you it's true 16:56:45 that simply doesn't happen to sane people 16:57:01 "crisis"? 16:57:15 oklopol: but nobody other than you is sane in your world 16:57:15 oklopol: it is not normal to be perfectly sane all of your life 16:57:33 oerjan: no it's not. 16:57:40 err 16:57:44 yes it is, i mean 16:57:45 ... 16:57:54 god language is hard today. 16:58:18 well. 16:58:48 oklopol: freudian slip. deep inside you believe it >:D 16:58:52 actually that was because i knew you'd say that, and i only took a quick glance at the sentence to make sure i guessed right, now that we're on the topic of psychology. 16:58:58 ok i'll stop now 16:58:58 oerjan: no. ^ 16:59:17 heh :D 16:59:41 freudian slips work. when you're thinking about something else than you're saying, these things may mix up. 17:00:18 hi 17:00:20 what the fuck 17:00:22 that is not the style i selected 17:00:37 Fuck it, I'm switching to limechat. <3 17:01:46 also, oerjan, i don't seriously think it's unhealthy not to be logical all the time. or, to be more exact, explicitly know exactly what logic your actions are based on. 17:02:14 oklopol: argh, triple negation 17:02:24 that doesn't make it okay to do clearly insane things, though. 17:02:46 YES IT IS 17:02:54 * oerjan runs after oklopol with a chainsaw 17:02:59 and doing something like accusing someone of infidelity without any concrete proof is insane. 17:03:03 no one would do that. 17:03:16 oerjan: :D 17:06:16 * oklopol tries to read rest of article 17:06:41 i'm pretty sure i'd get a heart attack if i tried to study psychology 17:08:01 well, okay, most of the lolly stuff seems to have come from freud 17:08:20 * oklopol noticed name and closed article 17:09:15 oerjan: can you juggle chainsaws? 17:09:21 i want something to drink 17:09:38 i can barely juggle plastic balls 17:09:43 how many? 17:09:53 two, maybe 17:09:59 i can only do 3 plus some tricks 17:10:00 "plastic" "balls" 17:10:07 and well 4, but that's the same as 2 17:10:18 * oklopol also has a unicycle. 17:10:34 ehird: darn i put that "plastic" there precisely to _avoid_ your comments :D 17:10:50 oerjan: "plastic" 17:10:52 i tried learning 5 when i was a kid, but that didn't work 17:11:07 could probably learn that in a few days now, maybe i should allocate the time somewhere 17:11:53 it took me weeks to learn 3 balls when i was about ehird's age 17:12:12 "learn" 17:12:14 "3" "balls 17:12:15 " 17:12:38 ;;;;;;) 17:12:46 ballllllz 17:13:05 anyway point is, multiple weeks back then, now i've seen my friends learn the skill in a few days 17:13:11 "skill" 17:13:54 "ehird" 17:14:34 and - how nice of my friends - they've all learned it at a different time, so i've been able to see how the motoric skills have developed automatically over time, many people my age can pretty much just take the balls and start juggling, while kids just can't see how it works 17:14:48 "friends" 17:15:14 * oklopol finds the brain fascinating 17:15:23 * oklopol licks the brain 17:15:30 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:15:31 "brain" 17:15:43 "17:15" 17:15:44 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;) 17:15:54 i should go buy something to drink 17:15:58 "drink" 17:16:05 why don't you keep this up while i'm going? 17:16:07 customer11529.pool1.Newcastle-HTL0207-BAS0001.orangehomedsl.co.uk 17:16:11 that hostname is way too revealing 17:16:16 although i'm not even in newcastle 17:16:17 lol 17:16:17 "up" 17:16:25 ""up"" 17:16:36 ehird: you're in a pool? 17:16:41 no 17:16:43 "pool" 17:16:45 yes 17:17:03 you're in an orange? 17:17:15 """" 17:17:32 "Abstraction is not clever." <<< what's teh context 17:17:35 """""" 17:17:38 "teh" 17:18:02 yes 17:18:09 So, should we "practice putting 'quotation marks' around 'things'"? 17:18:09 oklopol: reddit 17:18:09 :P 17:18:23 ehird: ohhh thanks :D 17:18:25 it could be either someone dissing abstraction, or someone considering it too basic 17:18:50 but the latter would not be stupid enough for reddit i guess 17:18:51 oerjan: sort of both. 17:18:54 it was a stupid comment 17:18:57 also it can be either about abstraction, or some specific instance of it 17:19:03 17:18 <#haskell> haskell-newbie: Hello, is there some kind soul who wont mind helping a newbie in a project hes doing? 17:19:07 why do people use non-names like that 17:19:08 i mean 17:19:09 if it's the latter, it's a poetic way to say it, but possible 17:19:09 in 5 years 17:19:11 are we gonna like say 17:19:20 yeah i was just zygomorphic prehistomimes up the monad 17:19:31 -!- oerjan has changed nick to human. 17:19:35 ehird: no idea 17:19:38 -!- human has changed nick to oerjan. 17:19:56 -!- ehird has changed nick to fuzz. 17:20:00 used 17:20:00 :D 17:20:01 i accidentally a sygomorphic prehistomorphism 17:20:05 -!- fuzz has changed nick to zuff. 17:20:06 *zygo 17:20:12 Note to self: Internet Explorer is not very good at rendering 3 megabytes of text. 17:20:16 i liek this name 17:20:29 (How many fantasy novels is that, again?) 17:20:59 Nothing is good at rendering 3MB of text, really. 17:21:17 oklopol : YOU ACCIDENTALLY WHAT? 17:21:20 Slereah-: vi(1) is 17:21:30 Slereah-: i corrected my typo already 17:21:32 *rimshot* 17:21:35 oklopol: so, uh, the whole zygomorphic prehistomorphism? 17:21:37 :\ 17:21:44 tha's bad 17:21:45 zuff: yeah, there i was minding my own business 17:21:55 you know, monading it up 17:21:56 and then 17:22:06 i accidentally the whole zygomorphic prehistomorphism 17:22:16 Heh. 17:22:16 "capable of division into symmetrical halves by only one longitudinal plane passing through the axis" 17:22:56 oerjan: is that the definition of one of these wordphisms? 17:23:03 zygomorphic 17:23:14 "bilaterally symmetric" is simpler though 17:23:19 "passing through the axis" 17:23:27 liek how 17:23:44 than the longer definition 17:23:46 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird. 17:24:13 but prehistomorphism appears to be vacant 17:24:14 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff. 17:24:19 oerjan: exaplane. 17:24:40 whaddyamean passing through the axis 17:24:57 ah histomorphism has something haskell as its first hit 17:25:12 oklopol: you know what bilaterally symmetric is, right? 17:25:20 *al 17:26:13 http://www.onlineordbog.dk/wordnet/no/17/zygomorphic.php 17:26:15 err. it means symmetric 17:26:29 don't ask me what the axis does there 17:26:32 bilateral adds that it's symmetric around a plane 17:26:34 okay. 17:26:41 well i was just wondering what that added to it. 17:26:56 "symmetric around" 17:26:59 hmm. 17:27:00 indeed i don't see why there needs to be an axis 17:27:37 also ehird actually talked about a "prehistomeme" 17:27:49 * AnMaster looks around 17:27:51 "A Shock Level measures the high-tech concepts you can contemplate without being impressed, frightened, blindly enthusiastic - without exhibiting future shock." 17:27:53 plz translate 17:28:01 "SL2: Medical immortality, interplanetary exploration, major genetic engineering, and new ("alien") cultures." 17:28:06 prehistomime actually 17:28:16 So if I'm blindly enthusiastic about interplanetary exploration, does that mean I'm below shock level 2? 17:28:22 shit, AnMaster isn't ignored on limechat 17:28:48 that's obviously a neanderthal using body language only 17:29:07 ;) 17:29:17 does "histo" have to do with history? 17:29:25 ah 17:29:26 body 17:29:33 huh? 17:29:46 the body language thing was for "mime" 17:29:55 yes 17:30:01 but i guess it fits 17:30:09 no wait 17:30:10 but i'm talking about the "histo-", seems to mean body tissue 17:30:21 "From Greek histos , web" 17:30:37 err oh 17:30:39 yeah okay 17:30:53 so that's a medical reuse 17:31:06 yes 17:31:17 so, from now one, i'm browsing the histos 17:31:22 *on 17:31:37 pangeohistos 17:31:46 :D 17:32:51 er, "histos (Greek: "tissue"), " 17:32:56 hmm 17:33:02 apparently the histos does not agree with itself 17:33:06 os x looks so much more cooler when you invert it 17:33:20 oerjan: that's internet oh right. 17:33:32 *alright maybe 17:34:29 i should go now 17:34:36 see you @ later tiems -> 17:34:40 ah a better source 17:34:47 ""study of organic tissues," 1847, from Gk. histos "warp, web," lit. "that which causes to stand," from histasthai "to stand," from PIE *sta- "to stand" (see stet). Taken by 19c. medical writers as the best Gk. root from which to form terminology for "tissue." 17:35:03 (histology) 17:36:14 shit, AnMaster isn't ignored on limechat <-- ? 17:36:21 oh hi eh 17:36:23 ehird* 17:36:27 i'm not ehird 17:36:37 zuff, ok, if you say so 17:36:45 AnMaster: same bouncer. 17:36:48 zuff, then why do you have ehird as both ident and realname? 17:36:52 * [zuff] (n=ehird@eso-std.org): ehird 17:36:52 bouncer issues 17:36:54 ah ohm 17:36:59 * [ais523] (n=ais523@eso-std.org): (this is obviously not my real name) 17:37:03 yes, but 17:37:05 didn't cause an issue for him ;P 17:37:07 i just came in here today 17:37:11 so new bouncer account 17:37:13 from ehird 17:37:13 so 17:37:19 -> he didn't configure it right 17:37:36 yeah that stupid ehird never gets things right 17:37:57 zuff, so where is ehird, and why "* ehird is now known as fuzz" "* fuzz is now known as zuff" :P 17:37:58 * AnMaster slaps zuff around with some missing humor 17:38:13 AnMaster: I'm missing humour? what. 17:38:17 that's rich coming from you 17:38:18 zuff, no I am 17:38:21 ... 17:38:22 duh 17:38:24 AnMaster: duh, the nick was obviously misconfigured too 17:38:28 wow, was that meant to be a joke? 17:38:30 :| 17:38:30 oerjan, ah of course 17:38:34 that was awful. 17:38:36 and what oerjan said. 17:38:37 oerjan, that explains it 17:38:52 zuff, right, so what are you interested in? what eso langs? 17:39:07 i'm pretty new to them, ehird told me about them yesterday. 17:39:13 ah 17:39:22 how comes he gave you a bnc that quickly hm? 17:39:27 maybe I should ask him for one too 17:39:28 :) 17:39:28 'cuz we're friends? :| 17:39:32 i am a great fan of cfunge 17:39:32 oh ok 17:39:35 it's nice and fast 17:39:37 befunge is a nice language 17:39:40 zuff, hah 17:39:57 clearly insane babbling madness 17:40:06 17:40:07 well I think that is sarcasm and/or irony. I would definitely say befunge98 is rather bloated 17:40:23 TODAY ON "ANMASTER ANALYZES TEXT TO SEE IF IT IS A JOKE" 17:40:32 zuff, I know it is a joke 17:40:46 "well I think that is sarcasm and/or irony" 17:40:46 I just don't want to scare you by realizing it right away :P 17:40:51 17:40:59 ummmm 17:41:04 17:41:12 )) 17:41:19 no, those are parenthei 17:41:23 yes 17:41:23 a sufficiently analyzed joke is equivalent to a yawn 17:41:31 oerjan, indeed. 17:42:18 "" 17:42:37 17:42:52 I believe that is valid, I'm not 100% sure 17:43:09

a is valid. 17:43:11 <100%> 17:43:14 right 17:43:16 17:43:17 17:43:24 there I think I closed all 17:43:28 except 17:43:35 ( is a parenthesis, [ is a bracket, { is a brace, < is half a quotation mark in some langauges. 17:44:39 no... 17:44:49 err no 17:44:55 Warrigal: ( = parenthesis, [ = square bracket, { = brace, < = bracket 17:44:57 so, almost right 17:45:00 ( is wax, [ is U turn, { is a embrace, < is angle 17:45:02 duh 17:45:04 just ask ais523 17:45:09 { curly bracket 17:45:13 AnMaster: ha ha ha. 17:45:17 :| 17:45:40 Oh, right, the standard INTERCAL naming system. 17:45:50 ) is wane, } is bracelet, and I don't remember what ] and > are. 17:45:55 ". 17:45:57 RABBIT! 17:46:03 I can't do it. 17:46:10 Is there no rabbit unicode char? 17:46:31 ] U turn back 17:46:32 dot below is an accent, isn't it? 17:46:43 > right angle 17:46:47 Warrigal, ^ 17:46:51 so it should be possible 17:47:36 or perhaps a hungarian " accent on a dot 17:47:54 hm 17:48:04 * oerjan doesn't know enough unicode to actually make any of those 17:48:45 '.' 17:48:58 When writing sentences that end in quotes, I tend to put the period under the quotation mark. 17:49:00 spark-dot-spark? 17:49:23 INTERCAL used to have dot and rabbit ears at the same time 17:49:25 Warrigal, rabbit 17:49:26 To make a rabbit 17:49:34 But that was back when it was in punch cards 17:49:37 Slereah-, yes I know 17:49:48 Slereah-, and ick can do it with back-space inserted iirc 17:49:53 like a literal backspace 17:50:10 pix 17:50:11 no it doesn't make a lot of sense to have backspace as an ASCII code but yes it exists 17:50:24 Slereah-, non-printable ASCII code 17:50:34 like \a is bell, or such 17:50:40 Hence "pix" and not "write it" 17:50:58 Slereah-, well emacs shows it as ^? 17:51:14 not ^H ? 17:51:32 Bell is ^G. 17:51:38 ^? is DEL, i thought 17:52:01 oerjan, well I guess my terminal messed up then 17:52:10 since I get ^[[3~ for Del 17:52:12 Have a table: http://www.asciitable.com/ 17:52:24 I have a table on my wall. 17:52:32 Two columns to the right of ? is DEL. 17:52:48 Warrigal: hey i was on that page 17:52:53 My table is prettyier, because 002-006 are pretty shapes 17:52:54 Two columns to the right of BS is H. 17:53:09 It is dark here. 17:53:13 I am likely to be eaten by a grue. 17:53:20 -!- oerjan has changed nick to grue. 17:53:25 crap 17:53:25 * grue eats zuff 17:53:30 "Groo Nickname is already in use." 17:53:30 -!- grue has changed nick to oerjan. 17:53:33 Fucking balls 17:53:55 Two columns to the right of RS is ^, so I guess RS is written as ^^. This also means that there's no good way to write ^, as it would be a ^ followed by RS. 17:54:17 actually it is very dark. 17:54:18 oerjan, ghost him! 17:54:22 ah 17:54:22 I can barely see. :D 17:54:23 wait 17:54:27 I misread that 17:54:50 Straw poll: should I put some lights on? 17:55:05 No. 17:55:08 zuff: no, don't scare the poor hungry grues 17:55:14 It would be better to use a second- or fourth-column character to mean shift by two columns. 17:55:15 Poll closed. 17:56:02 #, say. NUL is #@, SOH is #A, SUB is #Z, US is #_, etc., then DEL is #? and # is #c. 18:09:10 So. 18:09:11 Guys. 18:09:12 -!- Slereah has joined. 18:09:35 hm 18:09:41 snrf 18:09:50 why does INTERCAL keep the name ampersand for & 18:09:51 ? 18:10:00 Because it's already funny! 18:10:08 AnMaster: because they couldn't think of anything funnier 18:10:11 ah right 18:10:12 i _think_ the manual already explains that 18:10:15 makes sense 18:10:16 oerjan: it does. 18:10:17 It does 18:10:19 oerjan, I was looking in it 18:10:22 couldn't find it 18:10:25 * AnMaster greps 18:11:35 hrrm can't find it in Revamped Instruction Manual for C-INTERCAL (0.29) 18:11:36 It's in the appendix. 18:11:42 Or is it the other organs? 18:11:42 ls 18:11:49 Slereah, tonsile 18:11:51 err 18:11:52 spelling 18:11:53 Yeah, that one 18:12:43 huh in my copy of that I only see: texinfo internal error 18:12:44 -!- Slereah has set topic: Abstraction is not clever. -- reddit comment | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | You must be able to tell every INTERCAL joke to enter here.. 18:12:44 -_- 18:12:50 not odd I couldn't grepped 18:12:53 grep it* 18:13:15 argh 18:13:36 http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/intercal-man/tonsila.html 18:13:36 if i never leave, i don't have to do that, right? 18:13:51 since i will not have entered, i mean 18:13:52 oerjan : Damn you loophole exploiting man 18:14:03 "* Got any better ideas?" 18:14:20 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:14:52 i exploited loopholes before i was born 18:14:58 "exploit" 18:14:59 "loopholes" 18:16:07 also i used paradoxes before i was conceived 18:16:29 hrrm 18:16:59 That's a time paradox :o 18:19:51 duh 18:20:22 Slereah: it's AnMaster's job to explain obvious jokes, not yours 18:20:53 Hey, I don't want illegal aliens to take the jobs of hard working americans 18:21:02 Even though I'm neither hard working or American 18:21:09 Slereah... stop stealing my job. 18:21:16 AnMaster: shut up, dirty swede 18:21:23 gb2/sweden 18:21:25 / 18:21:29 zuff, hey I showered only last week! 18:21:32 He alreadu is. 18:21:41 Slereah: he is in VIRTUAL AMERICAN SPACE 18:21:43 /kick AnMaster 18:22:00 By whom was created #esoteric? 18:22:03 #esoteric is american? i had the impression it was british 18:22:06 * AnMaster starts to sing the Internationale 18:22:18 AnMaster: dirty commie 18:22:26 or possibly some EU thing 18:22:27 oerjan: shut up, dirty norway...ian 18:22:37 FACTS ARE USELESS 18:22:44 zuff: i fart in your general direction 18:22:56 see, all foreigners are dirty 18:22:59 especially foreigners like ME 18:23:01 oerjan, yes, #esoteric has EU-bidrag 18:23:06 don't know English word for it 18:23:07 bidrag = DIRTY RAG 18:23:12 GTFO 18:23:14 no, more like money 18:23:24 so yes dirty 18:23:29 yeah this channel attracts bi's alright. 18:23:30 shut up commie 18:23:43 oerjan, can you translate it? 18:24:03 AnMaster: google.com/translate_t 18:24:29 ah 18:24:37 "EU-bidrag" -> "EU grants" 18:24:43 it seems reasonable too 18:24:48 the translations 18:24:50 huge grant 18:24:51 grants is a few letters away from GENITALS 18:25:00 all europeans are PERVERTS 18:25:22 yes #esoteric has an EU grant of 1.2 million euro / year 18:25:28 didn't you know? 18:25:34 How is that money invested? 18:25:40 that's about £100bn 18:25:51 zuff: :D 18:26:02 Slereah, no clue, ask ehird, I believe he stole most of it 18:26:11 would that be continental or american billions? 18:26:20 oh, and that's $googl 18:26:22 *googol 18:26:30 *goggles 18:26:34 THEY DO NOTHING 18:26:44 yep, that's the usd 18:26:45 zuff, wait, million = 1 000 000 in English is it? 18:26:52 AnMaster: yes 18:27:00 billion is either 10 mil or mil mil 18:27:01 right 18:27:02 it depends. 18:27:05 err, wait no 18:27:07 oh? odd 18:27:11 zuff: 1000 mil 18:27:15 oerjan: right 18:27:21 bil = 1k mil | mil mil 18:27:22 1000 mil = miljard in Swedish 18:27:35 Just like "milliard" in English, I imagine. 18:27:46 billion = 1000 miljarder iirc 18:27:49 not sure about that 18:27:57 I don't use such large numbers written out 18:27:59 :( 18:28:06 only in scientific notation 18:28:32 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 18:29:03 zuff, please write out 10^10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 fully expanded in numbers 18:29:10 k 18:29:11 ;P 18:29:11 1 18:29:12 0 18:29:13 0 18:29:15 0 18:29:17 0 18:29:19 0 18:29:19 oh no 18:29:21 0 18:29:23 0 18:29:25 0 18:29:26 not one number per line 18:29:28 AnMaster: your big mouth 18:29:28 0 18:29:30 0 18:29:32 0 18:29:34 0 18:29:35 oerjan, I didn't intend that 18:29:36 0 18:29:37 sigh 18:29:38 0 18:29:40 0 18:29:42 0 18:29:44 0 18:29:46 0 18:29:46 I'll help. 18:29:47 zuff, sorry for that, please stop? 18:29:48 0 18:29:50 0 18:29:52 0 18:29:54 0 18:29:56 0 18:29:57 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 18:29:58 0 18:30:00 0 18:30:02 0 18:30:04 0 18:30:06 0 18:30:08 0 18:30:10 AnMaster: i'm just being helpful, sheesh 18:30:12 0 18:30:14 ah, thank you warrigal 18:30:16 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 18:30:18 Actually, he makes a nice clock. 18:30:19 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 18:30:22 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 18:30:25 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 18:30:25 We can see visually when what was said. 18:30:26 that is true 18:30:28 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 18:30:31 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 18:30:34 9*^~&*!%&^%CARRIER LOST 18:30:36 err 18:30:38 NO CARRIER 18:30:39 Warrigal, hm I think the number is too large to write out fully 18:30:46 Warrigal, not sure about that 18:31:05 my computer locks up when I try to calculate it ;P 18:31:11 it is *probably* way too large 18:31:12 AnMaster: no shit? 18:31:23 Well, you need room for 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 digits. 18:31:29 it's ten decillions or ten novemdecillions, anyway 18:31:48 If you memorized one digit per year, you'd probably finish before the heat death of the universe. 18:32:14 Warrigal, ah right 18:32:35 Warrigal, what about number of molecules to write it out right now? 18:32:47 assuming two atoms per number 18:33:18 oh wait, i didn't notice the 10^. AnMaster, you are insane. 18:33:19 digit, AnMaster 18:33:20 digit 18:33:59 zuff, right 18:34:05 oerjan, thank you 18:34:13 that is what I always wanted 18:34:27 i was afraid of that 18:34:51 oerjan, what? that I wanted to be acknowledged as insane? 18:35:00 This is about 10^10^20. At 1 digit per year, 10^20 years from the beginning of the universe will be... 18:35:24 oerjan, How else would I be able to win the IG Nobel price?!? 18:35:50 err Ig 18:36:00 AnMaster: that is not a requirement 18:36:01 ...in the Degenerate Era, after solar systems do not exist but before galaxies do not exist. 18:36:12 in fact being _too_ sane may be just as good 18:36:23 oerjan, ah 18:36:27 oerjan, good point 18:36:29 since then you might not recognize that your research is not 18:36:30 a bit too late now 18:37:55 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_timeline_from_Big_Bang_to_Heat_Death 18:38:00 So, where in there will everything be dead? 18:38:26 define "everything" 18:38:34 All intelligent things. 18:38:46 define intelligen 18:38:46 t 18:38:59 If our main energy source is protons, I guess that'll be at 160 on the timeline, or 10^10^(160/100) years from the beginning of the universe. 18:39:27 6.46721137 * 10^39 years. 18:39:28 Dude. 18:39:33 Warrigal: no way we'll last that long 18:39:39 where we = all intelligent life 18:39:42 "Proton" isn'the problem of enrgy source. 18:39:50 We're made of protons. 18:39:53 That assumes, of course, that our using protons as energy doesn't deplete protons significantly. 18:40:03 Well, yeah. 18:40:08 If they disintegrate, so do you 18:40:29 well I hope we can come up with a solution before then, it won't happen in my life time at least. Probably humans will be extinct way before then anyway 18:40:31 Also, it will be well before that. 18:40:39 Proton decay is an exponential drop 18:40:49 160 is only when everyone will be decayed 18:40:59 if we stay intelligent long enough, we can just transform into another form. maybe we can live on the surface of black holes 18:41:18 those will last a long time, right 18:41:21 I predict that intelligent life will disappear at around 110-115. 18:41:24 Okay, half of them will be gone after 150. 18:41:28 oerjan, err there are other issues with them 18:41:33 oerjan : No. 18:41:34 maybe less. 18:41:39 They last even less than protons. 18:41:42 oh 18:41:45 Warrigal, that is double logarithmic 18:41:52 IIRC, something like 10^100 years 18:42:04 Some time after 150, I mean. 18:42:07 Which is what the page says. 18:42:17 Warrigal, check the scale... 18:42:21 zuff: why will intelligent life disappear around 110-115? 18:42:48 Warrigal: Degenerate Era, I guess. Well, it might be a bit after 120. 18:42:50 AnMaster: I see "half of all protons have decayed", and to the left of it, some number above 150. 18:43:06 Warrigal, yes indeed 18:43:11 but also notice what the 150 means 18:43:28 that is 150 = 100*log(log(real_year)) 18:43:33 10^10^(150/100) years. 18:43:45 indeed 18:43:58 Around 10^31. 18:44:32 10^32-1 would be nicer, a perfect number for it 18:45:14 yes not same as 2^... 18:45:16 but still 18:45:39 So the Degenerate Era begins around 115, or 133,000,000,000,000 years. We're at 13,700,000,000 years now. 18:46:18 Who cares. I'll probably be a bunch of neutrinos and positrons by then. 18:48:41 Slereah: actually it says black holes last longer 18:48:54 And it'll probably be after the year 2066, which will be a pretty cool year, assuming 21st Century Fox is accurate. 18:49:45 Warrigal: everyone knows it's 2012 18:49:46 Why? 18:50:04 Slereah: new agers :P 18:50:06 21 dec 2012 18:50:14 What do you mean by "it"? 18:50:19 I said "why 2066" 18:50:22 oh 18:50:22 I know of 2012. 18:50:26 Warrigal: end of life 18:50:26 :P 18:50:26 I know crazy people. 18:50:30 Like waaaay crazy 18:50:33 2066 because 21st Century Fox takes place in that year. 18:50:42 "I believe in dragons" kinda crazy. 18:51:23 I know people who are friends with therians for some yet-to-be-adequately-explained reason. 18:52:00 I used to believe that other universes could cause our universe to follow *their* laws of physics. Or maybe I'm misremembering. 18:52:23 I do remember believing that Neopets really did exist *somewhere*. 18:52:36 THEY DON'T? :O 18:52:37 :P 18:55:40 Warrigal: it's not false, it's just unprovable :) 18:56:29 If not-X is falsifiable, what do you call X? Verifiable? 18:57:02 hm 18:57:10 Assuming so, it's certainly not falsifiable, but whether it *does* happen is greatly verifiable. 18:57:12 oerjan: ... which, for the sake of rationality and occam's razor, can be treated as false 18:58:23 * zuff notes that oerjan disagrees 18:58:24 zuff: heretic! 18:58:31 nice timing 18:58:34 If something is neither falsifiable nor verifiable, it's not scientific. 19:00:37 Warrigal: "the Co-NP-complete tautology problem" 19:01:33 hm wait 19:01:41 * oerjan is confused 19:01:57 that was the opposite of satisfiable, not falsifiable 19:02:01 I don't see what polynomial time has to do with this, but the concept is probably isomorphic. 19:02:16 obvious duality 19:02:59 I think I'm going to treat isomorphism as if it were a relation rather than a type of relation. 19:04:32 i is isomorphic to -i; the identity function is isomorphic to "it is given; Q.E.D."; rock, paper, and scissors are all isomorphic to each other; all numbers are isomorphic to 0, especially if they're very large, very composite numbers. 19:04:47 But no number except 0 is *completely* isomorphic to 0. 19:05:46 Warrigal: wat 19:06:24 Warrigal: it seems verifiable means something like that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verificationist 19:06:45 There are lots of isomorphisms mapping 60 to 0, because 60 is very composite. 19:07:58 Congruence modulo 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 15, 20, 30, and 60 all map betweek 60 and 0. 19:08:01 "This article needs additional citations for verification." yeah, right 19:08:55 1000000000000000000000000! is so isomorphic to 0 that you might as well just call it 0. :-P 19:12:24 -!- MisterOrange has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"). 19:28:48 anyone know of a 2D open source space turn based strategy game? I just felt an urge to play that. 19:29:15 either strategy or something similar, like strategy + exploring + colonization 19:29:48 stratego, explorer, colonization 19:29:53 i'm not sure why i said that. 19:30:56 oklopol: the acronym is sexcolon, so clearly it was a freudian slip 19:31:25 :D 19:31:27 well clearly 19:32:35 too bad it's not written colonyzation 19:33:48 I want a game that consists entirely of exploration. 19:34:14 And, you know, discovering things that are somehow useful. 19:35:12 i was thinking a game where you build fantasticcontraption-like spaceships and explore 2d space with them 19:35:18 gravity and all 19:35:18 hm 19:35:25 The Game of Live? 19:35:31 f 19:35:36 maybe get scored on how far you can get from your home planet and shit 19:35:42 but otherwise just exploration 19:35:44 Spore? 19:35:48 well 19:35:52 spore is nothing like that 19:35:53 what I meant was something like: 19:35:56 freeciv for space 19:35:57 game of life is nothing like that 19:35:59 if you see what I mean? 19:36:02 Spore has plenty of exploration 19:36:11 If you want, you can do just that 19:36:17 Slereah, open source? 19:36:23 don't forget that was in the original list 19:36:25 Slereah: yeah, sure, but it's nothing like my idea 19:36:35 i have no idea what you're talking about, AnMaster 19:36:40 it's like Warrigal's idea. 19:36:50 Also you, oklopol 19:36:56 I wasn't following the conversation 19:37:03 anyone know of a 2D open source space turn based strategy game? I just felt an urge to play that. 19:37:04 either strategy or something similar, like strategy + exploring + colonization 19:37:05 Slereah: of course you know what i'm talking about 19:37:07 I'm trying to find if there's an alternative to cremation/burial/SCIENCE 19:37:08 that was the original question 19:37:11 you addressed it directly 19:37:13 AnMaster: Why open source, pray tell? Are you going to be cheating by reading the source or something? 19:37:22 Free as in beer I could understand. 19:37:54 zuff, well it needs to run on linux 19:37:58 basically 19:38:02 wine is such a pain 19:38:04 in my experience 19:38:08 There are free-as-in-beer games that are closed source and work on linux. 19:38:18 Just not many, admittedly. 19:38:31 zuff, I can't think of any such, got any example? 19:38:42 I forget the name... loki games? Made them. 19:38:45 Ports of windows games, mostly. 19:38:47 * AnMaster googles 19:38:57 Closed 2002, apparently. 19:39:00 Heh. 19:39:14 hm 19:39:31 Most of their titles are for-pay; but I'm pretty sure I read about them making some free stuff 19:39:46 "Eric's Ultimate Solitaire" i listed on the wiki page. I think I played something called that back on Mac OS 7 once... 19:39:51 lol 19:40:05 deus ex was "in progress" XD 19:40:22 oh well 19:40:52 AnMaster: Code a game. :P 19:41:10 zuff, right anyway, can you think a game that is 1) something like the game freeciv, but takes place in space 2) runs on linux 3) is either free as in beer or free as in OSI 19:41:20 hm 19:41:21 nope. 19:41:33 zuff, I would if I could make up any good story lines or such 19:41:38 I always sucked at that 19:41:47 AnMaster: Games don't need good plots. 19:41:57 "You are in space. You have to find things and stuff. And use those things to do things." 19:42:07 zuff, I also suck at drawing 19:42:18 and really I wouldn't want ASCII interface for it 19:42:31 2D graphics probably 19:42:32 AnMaster: Make graphics like Asteroids or Space wars. 19:42:36 Vector line art ftw 19:42:55 zuff, well true it scales well, I mean not locked to fixed bitmap sizes ;P 19:42:56 i usually just do bals 19:42:57 *balls 19:43:05 oklopol, that sounds so dirty 19:43:06 ;P 19:43:16 AnMaster: hey, I'm the one who _makes_ the obvious dirty jokes 19:43:20 usually you just need to have a few kinds of objects 19:43:22 you're the one who doesn't get them 19:43:29 so why not just use a few different basic shapes 19:43:29 zuff, really? I thought it was ehird who did 19:43:33 and since he isn't here... 19:43:33 or colors 19:43:40 AnMaster: I killed ehird 19:43:49 oklopol, well, then what about making up game mechanics? 19:43:55 < oklopol> i was thinking a game where you build fantasticcontraption-like spaceships and explore 2d space with them 19:43:58 Perfect. 19:44:11 Warrigal, sounds fun yeah 19:44:22 AnMaster: Come up with something. 19:44:23 need some space battles too 19:44:25 that is it 19:44:34 zuff, then finding time to code it 19:44:50 also I hate GUI programming for some reason, always found backend much more fun 19:44:54 AnMaster: You seem to have adequate minutes to explain in detail your requirements for it then talk about how you couldn't make it and be rebutted. :P 19:44:58 but I guess I could use some language that made it easy 19:45:24 Also, if you're using C, just write a simple game loop thing on top of Allegro or SDL that renders the vector stuff to screen and handles moving it etc. 19:45:24 zuff, well I probably won't have time to make it soon, but maybe I'll start on it this xmas holiday 19:45:30 Then you could code without thinking of the gui. 19:45:36 or maybe I'll start learning haskell then 19:46:05 zuff, I wouldn't use C for it, since it would be turn based I guess 19:46:08 AnMaster: Oh lord. Please stick to the game. :P 19:46:25 * oerjan swats zuff -----### 19:46:27 zuff, actually I have planned beginning with haskell then 19:46:29 Warrigal: yes, it'd be pretty perfect, the problem is it's kinda complicated, because i want planets to actually consist of millions of tiny particles 19:46:30 err 19:46:34 grammar 19:46:34 AnMaster: no no no no no no no no >_< 19:46:43 ah yes 19:46:46 s/have/got/ 19:46:48 ;D 19:47:01 so it has to dynamically make larger blocks out of the particle heaps and so one 19:47:02 *on 19:47:15 That might be viable. 19:47:21 Use fractals. 19:47:28 oklopol, what do you plan for RAM requirement? 19:47:38 i don't think fractals are useful unless you have a very static system. 19:47:54 they might be useful for generating the space, but i don't think for actually running it 19:47:55 AnMaster: who cares about things like RAM? 19:47:57 oklopol, just make time a fractal too? 19:48:12 AnMaster: that works for a static animation. 19:48:15 zuff, someone who doesn't have a lot of it? 19:48:23 oklopol, ah hm right 19:48:25 AnMaster: how much ram have you got? 19:48:29 A planet is a pile of dirt. A pile of dirt is made of smaller piles of dirt. 19:48:30 zuff, 1.5 GB 19:48:33 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:48:34 AnMaster: i don't know how much ram i have 19:48:35 Sounds like a fractal to me. 19:48:43 AnMaster: 1GB here. 19:48:55 zuff, well, you have even less 19:49:00 Warrigal: umm. 19:49:03 And OS X isn't exactly light on the RAM consumption. Yet I have 20+ things open and it's smooth sailing. 19:49:03 I feel sorry for you 19:49:16 Warrigal: well yeah sure you can think of it like that, but i don't see the use 19:49:25 zuff, same, but if you want to store a planet as a list of billions of particles... 19:49:32 AnMaster: Did oklopol said billions? 19:49:34 *say 19:49:38 ok millions 19:49:45 but still 19:49:46 a lot 19:50:03 He did not say millions. 19:50:05 AnMaster: when a planet is sufficiently far away, it can be compressed 19:50:17 from a million particles into about ten basic shapes 19:50:22 hm true 19:50:33 ...of course you could go around space making sculptures... 19:50:43 oklopol, oh? 19:50:48 AnMaster: the idea is 19:50:56 also I assume all travel would be sub-light speed? 19:51:00 you're this little population of these weird aliens. 19:51:01 for maximum realism? 19:51:08 and you can pick up particles 19:51:11 who cares about speed 19:51:12 and build things out of them. 19:51:21 oklopol, hm 19:51:24 AnMaster: i don't see a need for that 19:52:08 In the computer world, it's easier to build things out of abstract concepts than to build them out of particles. 19:52:11 you'd fly around by building somekinda spaceships, there'd be certain materials that can be "burned" or something, and you could use them to shoot particles out the spaceship's ass to start flying, like a normal spaceship. 19:52:19 Warrigal, true 19:52:22 Warrigal: so? 19:52:51 Not having to simulate Newtonian dynamics is easier on the processor. 19:52:58 -!- comexk has changed nick to ehird. 19:53:00 oklopol, you mean like dilithium crystals? 19:53:13 and like, uh you reverse the, um, something to do it 19:53:19 polarity maybe 19:53:22 would fit well there 19:53:33 hey you could maybe make a tv show out of it 19:53:43 Warrigal: what's the alternative when you can build *anything*? 19:54:10 AnMaster: no i mean a particle that can blow up. 19:55:05 oklopol, hrrm 19:55:41 oklopol, oh right, would be something like, Uranium-238? 19:55:45 or 235 19:55:47 or whatever it is 19:56:15 AnMaster: i don't really care for a real world example of a similar substance 19:56:35 oklopol: kabloomium 19:56:36 but really anything that burns fast will do 19:56:59 like a match 19:57:09 oklopol: there's a grid, and shapes have positions on the grid. They're simple geometric shapes like squares and 45-degree right triangles. They have small amounts of state and have simple effects on their surroundings. 19:57:18 oklopol, ah 19:57:39 Warrigal: yeah, something like that 19:57:46 Warrigal, what about gravitation? 19:58:00 gravity would be something that only happens when particles are connected into a mass 19:58:09 in the simplified physics 19:58:30 also depending on how you define this... you could end up with a cellular automaton 19:58:44 not sure how you define that grid and interactions and such 19:58:45 AnMaster: no not really, because you need to optimize it every step of the way 19:58:54 oklopol, oh? 19:58:56 there needs to be abstraction going on all the time 19:58:59 by the program. 19:59:00 ah right 19:59:06 true 19:59:09 Gravitation isn't discrete, so it would have to be a modified version. 19:59:12 but yeah the rules, the laws of physics 19:59:17 oklopol, or you could just buy IBM Roadrunner 19:59:18 those are pretty much a ca 19:59:19 ;P 19:59:40 err, is that the supercomputer they're advertising now? 19:59:48 oklopol, isn't it the fastest one? 20:00:01 broke some "barrier" of flops iirc 20:00:06 like teraflops 20:00:09 or such 20:00:11 oh. 20:00:14 don't remember details 20:00:17 like a real supercomp okay 20:00:28 i thought the one they're selling for home use 20:00:31 "Roadrunner is a supercomputer built by IBM at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, USA. Currently the world's fastest computer, the US$133-million Roadrunner is designed for a peak performance of 1.7 petaflops, achieving 1.026 on May 25, 2008,[1][2][3] and to be the world's first TOP500 Linpack sustained 1.0 petaflops system. It is a one-of-a-kind supercomputer, built from commodity part 20:00:31 s, with many novel design features." 20:00:34 ok 20:00:36 petaflops 20:00:39 not teraflops 20:02:39 I tried to convert game of life rules into a wolfram 1d automaton: 20:02:42 000 001 010 011 100 101 110 111 20:02:42 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 20:02:45 Er. 20:02:48 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:02:53 Did that indent arrive? 20:03:00 Yes. 20:03:02 Yes it did. 20:03:16 zuff, hm interesting 20:03:24 -!- sorear has left (?). 20:03:45 Wonder what # it is. 20:03:45 zuff, btw, what OS are you on? 20:03:50 AnMaster: OS X. Why? 20:04:01 just wondering. 20:04:09 I see. 20:04:15 ^ don't 20:04:21 it's an interesting OS 20:04:39 I see. 20:04:41 ^ don't 20:04:45 zuff: 8+32+64 = 104 20:04:54 like most OS it has some really good ideas and a few bad. 20:05:00 the bundle thing is very nice 20:05:05 oerjan: Is it TC? :P 20:05:17 I dislike the bit about it being tied to Apple hardware 20:05:31 AnMaster: Apple is a hardware company, except its hardware only sells because of its software. 20:05:35 and that you can't find settings for everything easily always. 20:05:40 but yes it has some really good ideas 20:05:48 "everything easily always" 20:05:51 Stunning sentence combination there 20:05:58 zuff: only 110 is known to be TC i think (and its equivalents, 104 is not one) 20:06:04 oerjan: 30 is 20:06:07 zuff, sorry for the bad grammar 20:06:17 zuff: has it been proved? 20:06:22 oerjan: I think so. 20:07:05 zuff: wp does not say so 20:07:53 nor does mathworld 20:07:54 It obviously is. :P 20:08:17 it's that class 4 type, i guess. but that is no proof, just wolfram's hypothesis 20:08:55 ah. 20:09:00 I do not trust wolfram :P 20:09:01 Just ask ais523. 20:09:12 ais523 is the guy to prove Wolfram's hypothesises. 20:09:45 the picture of 104 looks boring, dies out immediately 20:09:52 Heh. 20:10:23 oerjan: just like in gol 20:10:43 actually that's just because the pictures start with a single cell and the rule always requires at least 2 20:10:52 yes 20:10:54 You mean there are Wolfram rules whose TC-ness is unknown? 20:11:01 Warrigal: yes. 20:11:16 Wow. 20:11:37 i assume 30 is one 20:17:27 oerjan: 104 is boring 20:17:29 just produces lines 20:19:05 zuff: 8+32+64 = 104 <-- how does that work? 20:19:13 binary 20:19:14 brb 20:19:29 well duh 20:19:31 I mean 20:19:35 000 001 010 011 100 101 110 111 20:19:35 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 20:19:36 -> 20:19:39 zuff: 8+32+64 = 104 20:19:44 * AnMaster tries to figure out 20:20:10 011 is the 8s place, 101 is the 32s place, 110 is the 64s place. 20:20:21 hm 20:20:40 what about 100 and such? 20:21:01 you sum the ones that give 1 20:21:03 aha 20:21:06 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:21:41 oerjan, wouldn't it be possible to construct other ones with the same numbers? 20:22:01 8| 20:22:02 or if you write it in the order 111 110 101 100 011 010 001 000, then you just take the bits below as the binary representation 20:22:19 so binary 01101000 = 104 20:22:21 also 101 (base 2) is 5? not 32 20:22:25 oh well 20:22:32 ....wut 20:22:34 yeah 2^ 20:22:44 oh 20:22:55 thazz what he meant 20:22:58 right 20:22:59 that works 20:23:19 as long as you have 3->1 mapping 20:23:31 it is unique isn't it? 20:23:49 zuff: 104 seems to be able to produce something else than vertical lines, but more rarely and which eventually dies out in my first tries 20:23:56 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 20:24:01 AnMaster: of course 20:24:08 right 20:24:20 oerjan, what about 2->1 mappings? 20:24:29 AnMaster: lul? 20:24:35 is binary new to you :P 20:24:35 well then you would presumably use 11 10 01 00 20:24:40 oklopol, no 20:24:44 oerjan, indeed 20:24:48 I was just wondering 20:24:52 if they were any interesting 20:25:04 AnMaster: those are boolean binary operators 20:25:09 all of them 20:25:14 oh right 20:25:34 oerjan, so 4->1 or 5->2? 20:25:45 might not make a lot of sense 20:25:46 ..? 20:25:46 i went through and checked once. none are really interesting, the most hard to predict are xor and its dual 20:26:02 oerjan, hm nxor? 20:26:04 AnMaster: you'd usually assume -> 1 anyhow 20:26:20 equivalence, not sure if it has an abbreviation 20:26:25 oerjan, well what if I assume -> 2, probably a bully automaton(?) 20:26:50 AnMaster: but then you'd double the field size each step 20:27:08 oerjan: what's wrong with that? 20:27:11 oerjan, fun, hope you got enough ram 20:27:11 i mean the table says what one cell becomes, given its ancestor neighborhood 20:27:16 i think it's pretty cool 20:27:29 hm maybe something fractal comes out 20:27:30 oerjan, so you insert extra cells, like the expanding universe 20:27:41 I think there is an interesting analogy there 20:27:42 :D 20:28:09 also I suggest using ternary instead of binary 20:28:11 much more fun 20:28:54 oerjan, don't you agree? 20:28:58 ternary is fun 20:29:30 Ternary is for terrible languages. 20:29:51 AnMaster: well sure you can do that 20:30:00 Slereah, well ternary cellular automatons would be fun 20:30:25 like ternary game of life: alive, on life support, dead 20:30:26 the wolfram scheme with 3 cells binary is just the simlest case that gives interesting automata, i guess 20:30:29 :D 20:30:30 Doesn't it already exist? 20:30:53 there are lots of life variations 20:31:05 hey was the joke THAT bad or what? 20:31:18 Is tere a GAME OF DEAT? 20:31:23 Fuck 20:31:29 My keyboard. 20:31:32 game of life support? 20:31:40 Wireless keyboards are shitty. 20:31:44 They drain batteries. 20:32:05 Slereah, you want one that can be recharged then 20:32:07 or something 20:32:15 also I use a old PS/2 keyboard 20:32:17 works perfectly 20:32:25 an old* 20:32:28 I want one with a wire, AnMaster 20:32:37 Slereah, PS/2 or USB? 20:32:40 But they didn't have any keyboard with a 1.8m wire 20:32:43 PS/2 is nicer :) 20:32:44 USB. 20:32:48 AnMaster: yeah then you can make paramedic gliders that bring other gliders back to life! 20:32:56 Heh. 20:32:59 Cute. 20:33:00 oklopol, haha 20:33:14 Slereah, I would say my keyboard cable is like 1.7 meters or so 20:33:15 also evil thugs that beat gliders up 20:33:19 that is my guess 20:33:24 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 20:33:28 TEN CENTIMETERS NOT ENOUGH 20:33:37 Slereah, well it is PS/2 20:33:39 oklopol : That would be THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME 20:33:44 for usb you can get longer cables 20:33:49 ... 20:33:50 Slereah, I got an usb extension cable here 20:33:57 Longer cables for a wireless keyboard? 20:34:02 you can make it like 3 meters 20:34:07 I cannot wrap my mind around such a concept! 20:34:07 Slereah, no for usb keyboard... 20:34:08 duh 20:34:26 I want one with a wire, AnMaster 20:34:35 USB. 20:34:42 But they didn't have any keyboard with a 1.8m wire 20:34:52 for usb you can get longer cables Slereah, I got an usb extension cable here 20:34:54 Slereah, duh 20:37:54 PS/2 is useless and obsolete. 20:38:32 * zuff becomes gradually more attached to this moniker 20:39:32 everything is useless and obsolete 20:39:49 Except ham. 20:40:26 hammer 20:40:46 Bacon. 20:44:47 Any live cell with fewer than two live neighbours goes on life support. 20:44:47 Any live cell with more than three live or life supported neighbours dies. 20:44:48 Any live cell with two or three live or life supported neighbours lives. 20:44:50 Any tile with exactly three live neighbours cells is populated with a living cell. 20:44:52 Any cell on life support with fewer than two live neighbours dies. 20:44:54 Any cell on life support with more than three live or life supported neighbours dies. 20:44:56 Any cell on life support with two or three live neighbours becomes living. 20:44:58 ^ game of life and life support 20:45:05 Heh. 20:45:12 Life supported cells are reccomended to be repeesented as the colour inbetween live and dead 20:45:38 oklopol: implement it. 20:46:07 I wonder if MCell could do that. 20:46:16 "The catterpillar has emerged from its coccoon, as a shark, with a gun for its mouth" 20:46:36 zuff: never 20:46:48 Fine, I'll implement it. 20:46:54 oklopol: got my minigame library? 20:47:07 i don't got anything. 20:47:18 oklopol: i gave it to you months ago, c'mon, you must have it 20:47:21 you made pong in it :P 20:47:23 :P 20:47:28 yeah i have it *comeshwew* 20:47:30 ... 20:47:39 slight typo there. 20:47:41 *somewhere 20:47:45 So Life, except life -> support and support -> death occur where death would occur, support -> life occurs where survival would occur, and death -> life occurs where birth would occur? 20:47:49 find it and vjn.fi/pb it :P 20:47:50 -!- nice_ has joined. 20:48:09 Warrigal: There are some unchanged rules. 20:48:11 And for certain ones of those, support counts as life, and for others, it doesn't? 20:48:31 The theory is that every cell needs healthy neighbours to survive. 20:48:35 Oh, right. 20:48:40 And overpopulation is overpopulation healthy or not. 20:49:00 Ditto with the right population, although that might need tweaking. 20:49:09 Life support is just: have conditions improved, stayed the same, or worsened? 20:49:15 If the first, it revives. Otherwise, it dies. 20:49:34 * zuff walks through a glider in it manually 20:52:33 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:52:38 -!- nice_ has changed nick to KingOfKarlsruhe. 20:52:46 Eh, it's too tedious. 20:53:17 I don't think a glider will glide. 20:53:29 It will, it's right in the name! 20:53:39 Unless you mean like 20:53:45 .#. 20:53:47 ..# 20:53:50 ### 20:54:01 Is that the glider? I forgot. 20:54:06 yeah 20:54:07 Yep. 20:54:11 that's the glider 20:54:12 -!- ehird has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:54:25 I know like three Life thingamagig. 20:54:37 The three basic groups, really. 20:54:37 Or the lesser-known phase: 20:54:39 #.. 20:54:40 .## 20:54:43 ##. 20:54:46 yeah 20:54:52 A block, an oscillator and a spaceship. 20:54:54 -!- comex has joined. 20:55:03 Well, there's also guns, but they're too big to remember like that 20:55:43 I know of a few still lifes, possibly more than one oscillator, and the glider and [LMH]WSS. 20:55:45 -!- comex has changed nick to zzuf. 20:55:48 -!- zzuf has changed nick to comex. 20:55:58 they're not that hard to remember if you understand how they work 20:56:06 Actually, I know of infinitely many still lifes. 20:56:15 still life? 20:56:26 you mean, an object that is immortal, just sits around 20:56:30 Warrigal : Connected still life? 20:56:42 Yep. 20:56:52 HOW! 20:57:31 err, just do like 20:57:32 oo 20:57:34 _oo 20:57:36 __oo 20:57:38 etc 20:57:43 oh right 20:57:48 Oh. 20:57:54 * oklopol forgot the rules! 20:57:56 :P 20:58:02 Rule 34 bitch 20:58:19 I wonder what the game of life would be if 2D automatons used the Wolfram numbering 20:58:25 Awful 20:58:26 :P 20:58:50 Well, there's probably a shitload of numbers 20:58:59 Since the game of life is isotropic 20:59:09 Plus every color inversion 20:59:45 That's no still life. 20:59:48 .# 20:59:50 #.# 20:59:51 .#.# 20:59:53 ..#.# 20:59:55 ...#.# 20:59:57 ....# 21:02:46 s 21:07:08 -!- Corun has joined. 21:09:22 a 21:11:58 Warrigal: yeah that works, i wasn't really thinking 21:12:36 we should all collaborate on a program. :P 21:12:44 Warrigal: hmm, how can you start a sidetrack from that? 21:13:02 i mean you can't draw stuff having just that 21:13:15 You want to draw stuff? 21:22:57 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:23:20 Warrigal: say i do. 21:23:24 Okay. 21:23:30 Put them really close together. 21:23:45 that's not connected. 21:23:55 Use a different fuse. 21:24:02 I believe MCell has an example. 21:24:10 that's really what i was asking for. 21:24:18 so kind of obvious i want that 21:25:19 Then get it. 21:26:47 err i mean the pattern, not the program 21:26:57 i was just wondering, i'm not especially interesting 21:27:08 i just assume you're currently more gol-able than me 21:27:16 21:29:10 So. 21:29:11 I'm bored. 21:29:18 I will finish my Snake game in C and play it. 21:29:37 have you tried crossworm 21:30:03 it probably has the worst user interface ever 21:30:09 i mean 21:30:12 to play solo 21:30:18 there's a button to kill off player 2 21:30:21 Link? 21:30:27 and there's only a few seconds before the game starts 21:30:39 and it takes about that time to adjust your eyes to see the worm 21:30:46 very annoying 21:30:47 err 21:30:51 www.vjn.fi 21:31:16 Kewel, my snake segfaults 21:32:13 * zuff wget http://www.vjn.fi/g/crossworm.pyc 21:32:41 Fatal Python error: (pygame parachute) Bus Error 21:32:41 zsh: abort python crossworm.pyc 21:32:42 oklopol: but 21:32:47 i cannot do crosseyes 21:32:47 -!- moozilla has joined. 21:32:48 :* 21:32:49 :( 21:33:12 noob ; ) 21:35:16 it's not hard to learn 21:35:21 my eyes just don't do it 21:35:21 :P 21:35:29 it's not hard to learn 21:35:42 With one selection of colors and Wolfram-like numbering, Life would be rule 47634829485252037513201013286088668282768170057352664824758043712595701137265078991199718623260253982640356387398937188476931618032046341864. 21:36:11 Heh. 21:36:16 Welp, my snake game works, but about 40534853453745x faster than it should 21:36:19 That's one big number! 21:36:45 It's just a 512-bit number; since there are 2^9 possibilities for the 3x3 square. 21:37:05 No longer than a reasonable SHA-512 hash. 21:37:36 But kinda long for a name! 21:37:45 Rule 110 rolls off the tongue nicely. 21:38:26 You could call it rule 0x100010001000101170117000100010117011701170117177E177E000100010117011701170117177E177E01170117177E177E177E177E7EE87EE8, too; that's shorter and more repetitive. 21:38:57 What about in ASCII? 21:39:31 can't you see..? 21:39:50 I can't really read hexa. 21:40:07 the first character is 0x10 21:40:10 The second byte is a null 21:40:14 yes 21:40:14 Which is unfortunate 21:40:44 Why can't null have a cutesy symbol like SOH? 21:40:56 Slereah: hex -> ascii conversion is so trivial it's impossible not to be able to do it 21:40:57 I'm sure we could all do with a few more control characters in our lives. 21:41:09 Rule AAAAAAABAAEAAQABARcBFwABAAEBFwEXARcBFxd+F34AAQABARcBFwEXARcXfhd+ARcBFxd+F34Xfhd+fuh+6A== in base64. 21:41:21 hmm that's nice 21:41:36 oklopol : What, you know every ASCII chars? 21:41:37 Maybe it could have a nickname like "the fuh rule". 21:41:52 Heh. 21:41:56 You mean you don't Slereah?! 21:41:58 Arc-fuh 21:41:58 Slereah: no 21:42:22 Slereah: that doesn't mean i can't see 99% of that wasn't letters 21:42:46 Yes, but what of the letters? :o 21:42:49 Or symbols? 21:43:02 hmm? 21:43:43 Hmm. Using # to mean XOR the next character with 0x40, $ to mean XOR it with 0x80, and % to mean XOR it with 0xC0... 21:44:05 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:44:34 According to hexdump -C, which converts all non-printable and >127 too into a dot, it's ".............................~.~.............~.~.....~.~.~.~~.~.". 21:44:49 0x7e ~ is just about the only readable thing it has. 21:45:29 Okay, this instead: # toggles XORing with 0x40, $ toggles XORing with 0x80. 21:46:38 No, it's too boring. 21:47:01 For the reference, I used the following to generate the bitstring for that number: 21:47:04 perl -e '$rule = ""; for ($val = 511; $val >= 0; $val--) { $bits = unpack("B9", chr($val/2).chr(($val&1)*128)); $self = substr($bits, 4, 1); $neighs = substr($bits, 0, 4).substr($bits, 5, 4); $nlive = $neighs; $nlive =~ s/0//g; $nlive = length($nlive); if ($nlive < 2 || $nlive > 3) { $rule .= "0"; } elsif ($live == 2) { $rule .= $self; } else { $rule .= "1"; } } print $rule, "\n";' 21:47:21 The ugliness of it. 21:49:20 Coool 21:49:22 My snake works 21:49:24 :D 21:49:41 WHY DID IT HAVE TO BE SNAKES 21:50:28 Okay I take that back it kind of works 21:52:05 oklopol: 21:52:06 if (SNAKE->last->x == 0) n = 39; 21:52:06 else n = SNAKE->last->x - 1; 21:52:08 i am stupid 21:52:12 that can be compressed 21:52:13 obviously 21:52:15 how ;_; 21:52:20 a simple modulo don't work 21:55:00 n = (SNAKE->last->x || 40) - 1 perhaps 21:55:08 clever 21:58:23 oklopol: 21:58:24 2+2 21:59:09 n = (SNAKE->last->x + 39) % 40 21:59:16 MizardX: Ouch. :) 22:00:38 Best snake variant: You grow by one each move. Avoid hitting into yourself. 22:03:13 Easy as long as you follow some pattern. 22:12:27 -!- Judofyr has joined. 22:13:49 22:13 NickServ: penguinofthegods@gmail.com has too many nicknames registered. 22:13:52 Suck my dick freenode. 22:14:55 you cybersquatter you 22:15:31 What are your nicks? 22:16:16 Warrigal: Lots. 22:17:40 Oh, apparently I also have too many nicknames registered. 22:18:15 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to ihope. 22:18:26 ihope: Rate my name from 1-10 22:19:41 I've dropped some nicknames; let's see if I can drop now. 22:19:46 Sorry, I only rate names ordinally. 22:19:47 TELL MEEEEE 22:19:52 ihope: Do that then 22:19:55 Okay. 22:22:47 Perfect in the pronunciation category, antiperfect in the starting with a capital letter category, not as good as "Slereah" but better than "fizzie" in the containing an A, O or U (preferably A or O) category... 22:23:01 s/pronunciation/pronounceability/ 22:23:12 Or is it pronuncibility or something. 22:24:20 Antiperfect in the sonorant consonant category. 22:25:52 -!- ihope has changed nick to Warrigal. 22:26:34 This nick has been registered. 22:27:41 -!- Slereah has changed nick to Incrediblon. 22:27:48 Well, this one hasn't. 22:29:48 Warrigal: I dislike initial-caps nicks. 22:29:56 And it's a bit hard to pronounce, too many consonants. 22:30:09 Also, I'd rank fizzie > Slereah. 22:30:16 Also, you forgot the "short and memorable" category. 22:30:20 'w' and 'x' is unregisterd. 22:30:20 Which I excell at with zuff. 22:30:31 MizardX: they're erroneous 22:30:36 because they're quakenet servcies 22:30:38 like q 22:30:46 You can't /nick to them 22:30:59 -NickServ- Information on q (account jack): 22:31:10 Yes, that was years ago, presumably. 22:31:11 Try /nick q 22:35:35 -!- oerjan has changed nick to Mgrvgrvladje. 22:35:44 who's complaining about consonants? 22:35:49 -!- Mgrvgrvladje has changed nick to oerjan. 22:36:36 Warrigal: 22:37:11 (supposedly a genuine georgian surname) 22:38:00 Nicks should begin with capital letters, A is the best vowel, and non-sonorant consonants should only be used to separate vowels. 22:38:39 for(s=c='',r=64;r;)s+=++c>63?c=r--&&'\n':c'; 22:38:42 discuss 22:38:57 Warrigal: Justify the first point, I disagree. Also the second. 22:38:59 check |/ on everything except capitals 22:39:58 zuff: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 22:40:05 oerjan: What 22:40:57 that's my comment on the debate regarding that thing 22:41:35 Capital letters are like standing up. Sitting causes restlessness. 22:42:14 Warrigal: But aesthetically, I prefer lowercase for names. 22:43:32 Capital letters make them seem more like actual names and less like usernames. 22:43:47 I don't suppose you plan on changing your name from Elliott Hird to elliott hird. 22:43:50 Warrigal: I am fine with seeming like a username. 22:43:56 Though that may be difficult and time-consuming. 22:44:01 Also, my name is not aesthetically pleasing anyway. 22:44:14 If I decide I like the name zuff, I would probably have no qualm changing my name to it IRL. 22:45:11 I guess zuff sounds like getting scratched behind the ear. 22:45:12 Warrigal: So I think you're wrong. 22:45:15 But only if you're a dog. 22:45:18 And lol. 22:45:24 But srsly, why is a the best consonant? 22:45:26 my name is Zuff. Dr., er, what first name goes well with Zuff? 22:45:43 I was going to say Frank, but I'm not so sure. 22:45:59 You should invent a device; then it could be called Zuff's Device. 22:46:03 something suitably mad-sounding of course 22:46:07 fizzie: Heh. 22:46:11 Viktor Zuff perhaps 22:46:12 I think the problem is that it has no solid consonant. 22:46:28 the z is weedy, the ff is awkward, kind of bu-ff-ery 22:46:39 and the vowel is basically lost 22:46:45 Yeah. 22:46:47 z should be pronounced ts, of course 22:46:53 oerjan: lol 22:47:09 I guess you need some solid consonants to keep the other consonants from drifting off to nowhere. 22:47:43 zuff: Nice C. 22:47:48 hm i wonder if zuff means something in german 22:47:51 That's why the letter D is nice. It's a voiced stop consonant, and all. 22:48:00 Erm. 22:48:03 Not C. 22:48:07 pikhq: Wat? 22:48:09 hey there's a User:Zuff on wp 22:48:13 pikhq: THat's JS. :P 22:48:16 And I stole it. 22:48:16 Yeah. 22:48:20 Realised after the fact. 22:48:25 oerjan: It's a four-letter combination; I'm not surprised. 22:48:27 Looks like good obfuscated C, though. 22:48:49 http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=zuff 22:49:08 oerjan: One definition made in 2006 and it's nonsensical. 22:49:28 B, D and G are the voiced plosives. 22:49:45 * Warrigal ponders whether "Warribal", "Warridal", or "Warrigal" is best 22:49:50 Warrigal: I content that Warrigal is a crap name because it starts on a downer with W 22:49:53 "Warribal" looks too much like "cannibal". 22:50:03 No, the W makes it swing! Or something. 22:50:03 Which sounds awkward with the relatively harsher latter end, and the a following it is hard to munch together 22:50:12 So I'd aim for improving the start. 22:50:49 http://everything2.com/e2node/zuff 22:51:06 A "W" to swing and an "rr" to sing, then you jump off the "g" and land with an "l"! 22:51:36 How are you trying to pronounce the "arr", by the way? 22:52:28 It should sound exactly like "horrible", except "w" instead of "h" and "g" instead of "b". 22:52:37 -!- ab5tract has joined. 22:52:48 Warrigal: That's how I'm saying it. It's awkawrd. 22:52:53 Seriously, the Wa is what ruins it, 22:53:01 http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Zuff-family-history.ashx 22:53:15 it exists! or did at one point 22:53:35 heh. 22:53:49 a warrigal needs a furry gal 22:53:57 Are you pronouncing the "rr" rhotically? 22:54:35 I'd expect you to, as it's followed by a vowel. 22:55:24 I'll make a recording. 22:55:25 you can huff and puff, but you can never snuff a zuff 22:56:50 By the way, fizzie, zuff is derived from your name 22:56:54 fuzz -> zzuf -> zuff 22:57:09 Warrigal: http://filebin.ca/xcthqn/foo.aiff 22:59:52 Warrigal: . 23:00:12 Just a moment. 23:00:55 Um, that's not you saying "Armageddon" again, is it? 23:01:10 Warrigal: Err, that's me saying Warrigal. 23:01:12 Several times. 23:01:18 Ooops. 23:01:21 I uploaded the wrong fil 23:01:21 e 23:01:22 xD 23:01:38 I think a recording of someone saying "Warrigal" several times would be really scary. 23:01:50 Warrigal: Er, why? 23:02:23 people accidentally saying "Armageddon" when they mean something else would also be scary 23:02:43 especially if a lot of people started doing it 23:04:37 Are you waiting for me to respond or uploading that file? 23:05:18 are you multitasking or mulling the task 23:06:24 Warrigal: uploading 23:07:27 Warrigal: http://filebin.ca/mhgzgx/warrigal.aiff 23:09:43 How many times do you say it? 23:10:23 Most of those are non-rhotic, though you do have two rhotic ones in there. 23:10:55 Okay, maybe three. 23:12:39 Wait, "horrible" is pronounced differently in Britain, isn't it. 23:13:26 This is why Americans are so much better than Brits. :-P 23:13:53 Warrigal: Make a recording of you pronouncing it, then, so I can adjust my vocal cords. :P 23:13:53 I'll see about recording me saying it. 23:14:58 You just need to move your lips closer together, and your teeth. 23:15:36 Gee, I just remembered that the official pronunciation of my name is actually completely different. 23:15:50 I'll dismiss that as a joke. 23:17:33 I guess I'll do more or less what you did. 23:20:18 Try http://filebin.ca/bkqth/Warrigal-US.wma 23:22:57 she didn't die \o/ 23:23:48 In http://filebin.ca/bkqth/Warrigal-US.wma, she doesn't die at the end. 23:23:56 I'm guessing zuff is finding a way to play .wma files. 23:24:04 Warrigal: why wma? :{ 23:24:19 Because I hate you. 23:24:21 -!- Judofyr has quit. 23:24:26 I'll try again. 23:24:29 I agree. :D 23:24:36 No, I can play .wmas 23:24:38 But I hate you 23:24:39 :D 23:24:55 Warrigal: WAHGL WAHGL WAHGL WAHGL WAHGL 23:27:32 So you've heard it? 23:27:43 Yes. 23:28:33 How do you like those pronunciations? 23:28:44 Wahgl. 23:30:11 They're both supposed to be three-syllable pronunciations. "Wahgl" is only two. 23:30:20 Well, it's waaaaaaaaaahgl 23:30:24 Though I'll admit the second pronunciation could have turned out better. 23:30:34 It's supposed to be wah-uh-gl. 23:32:23 vehicle 23:34:19 If you pronounce Warrigal wah-huh-gl, I will... decrease your Credit. :-P 23:35:51 night all 23:36:09 i pronounce it "very cool" 23:36:45 I can see a non-native speaker pronouncing it that way. 23:37:13 vrr-ptang-q'ool 23:41:38 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahjjjjjjjjjj laggggggggg 23:41:45 stupid "50 programs open at once i dont liek" 23:41:49 RUN INFINITE PROGRAMS YOU POS 23:42:02 That's why I have three programs open. 23:42:09 Warrigal: that's not the case 23:42:22 That's why I have two windowed applications open. 23:42:53 in case you don't know yet, i find pretty much nothing more insulting than people telling me things that refer to my english capabilities as non-native. 23:43:21 oklopol's awesome at english btw. 23:43:42 even when they're things like "non-native people like you are usually better at grammar" 23:43:51 (than natives) 23:44:43 Do you mean you *actually* pronounce it that way? 23:44:45 well, of course anything that requires you to learn it younger than i currently am will do. 23:44:49 yes the we are better 23:45:25 Warrigal: finnishified, i pronounce it [woorig(o-umlaut)l] 23:45:44 i can't type the phonetic characters for those 23:45:45 orgel orgel orgel 23:46:12 o-umlaut is what finnish uses for that vowel english uses in the word "a" 23:46:20 of course it's a bit different 23:46:27 but they're close relatives 23:47:40 the letters a and ö grew up together on a small farm in Värmland, Sweden, but later moved in opposite directions 23:48:59 yeah, ö became a poor fisherman who enjoys the sauna, and occasionally makes operating systems and cell phones for pocket money, while a became a successful businessman who everyone has a hate-love relationship with 23:49:21 lol 2008-12-07: 00:12:44 my brains 00:12:49 they are going too fast 00:12:56 i can't read 00:12:59 i'm having visions 00:13:39 brain*s*? how many brains do you have!? 00:14:06 i use it in plural and singular interchangeably 00:15:00 that's just something i've decided to do 00:18:16 -!- Corun has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:18:16 -!- olsner has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:18:16 -!- decipher has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:18:17 -!- zuff has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:19:13 -!- Corun has joined. 00:19:13 -!- olsner has joined. 00:19:13 -!- decipher has joined. 00:19:13 -!- zuff has joined. 00:19:32 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 00:39:53 -!- M0ny has quit ("Hey Hoy let go !"). 00:41:23 -!- Corun has joined. 00:51:58 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:57:21 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird. 02:04:57 I wrote this comment in my code 02:04:57 / destroy the children 02:05:13 Only with two slashes, one of which XChat stripped away :P 02:05:52 hehe 02:06:18 is it a tree, or are you making the game of the year? 02:06:42 A tree :P 02:39:27 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 02:40:54 -!- comex has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:57:58 -!- comex has joined. 03:00:37 -!- comex has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:50:12 -!- comex has joined. 03:50:38 GregorR: Nice works. 04:00:03 -!- Corun has quit ("the bunnies are attacking EURASIA"). 05:29:48 hey guys 05:29:59 i think i might be mildly drunk for the first time in my life. 05:33:11 'cuz I just woke up in bed with a WOMAN. WTF? 05:33:23 God I'm stupid and tired :P 05:33:29 why would that bother me? 05:33:38 im gay, not weird. 05:33:58 Heh :P 05:35:20 besides, i'd fuck a female. i just am not attractive to them. 06:25:42 $ c_count plof/ast/*.d plof/ap/*.d 06:25:42 ... 06:25:42 Total: 2185 06:25:58 Nothing makes you feel more manly than cranking out thousands of lines of complicated threading code in a day :P 06:32:33 throwing away half of it would be more manly 06:52:58 I think I've deleted almost every line of code I've written today :( 06:53:07 not that that's a great deal 06:55:45 i haven't written a line of code in six months 06:57:28 switched to http://www.instantexe.com/ ? 06:58:18 more like utterly depressed 07:15:54 -!- ab5tract has quit. 07:32:09 GregorR: Not bad. 07:54:52 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:55:20 -!- JediatNight has joined. 07:56:16 -!- JediatNight has quit (Client Quit). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:44:53 bsmntbombdood: being depressed is for losers. 08:45:01 ja 08:45:47 :) 08:47:44 GregorR: i've written more in a day. about 3000, until i automated the process to make the ~37000 more. 08:48:40 but yeah that wasn't threading code, i'm sure that's the fundamental difference between these tasks 08:50:00 but seriously, i envy you, your life must be so great 08:55:14 what... there's a substance called codeine you can develop a physical dependence to 08:55:18 that's so cool :DDDDDDDDDDD 08:55:21 * oklopol wants 08:56:41 lol wut? 08:56:45 you didin't know that? 08:56:51 ever heard of heroine? 08:57:38 yes. is codeine as well-known? 08:59:57 codeine is a pussy drug 09:00:10 it's OTC in some countries 09:18:25 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 09:20:11 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:30:18 -!- kar8nga has joined. 10:33:11 -!- Judofyr has joined. 10:46:37 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:50:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:03:15 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:38:19 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:38:41 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 13:27:16 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff. 13:27:33 So, uh, why is my bouncer not working. 13:30:09 it bounces too much? 13:30:19 No, my IRC bouncer. :P 13:30:29 same answer :P 13:30:33 :) 13:30:59 The solution is: 13:31:10 -!- zuff has set topic: Nobody can talk if zuff is idle. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 13:31:47 yay i just coded a C64-esque game with completely procedural graphics and levels 13:32:11 and the final executable is around 8kb music included 13:32:32 oh music is procedural too of course :P 13:33:01 decipher: what lang? 13:33:02 c? 13:33:03 asm? 13:33:08 INSTANT.EXE? 13:33:18 COBOL? 13:33:18 C 13:33:30 the correct answer was INSTANT.EXE 13:35:03 actually i should code a pacman clone with brainfuck sometime 13:37:29 decipher: that would be rather impossible, unless you have severe constraints 13:37:45 graphics would consist of clearing the screen and outputting a bunch of stuff, input would require enter after each key, etc 13:37:47 and no timing 13:37:59 well of course i meant "to the extent possible" 13:38:43 it would fit better if I call it a demake than a clone 14:33:01 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:37:04 -!- kar8nga has joined. 15:04:55 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 15:07:55 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:07:55 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:08:36 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:00:10 -!- Ilari has quit ("Won't be back for a while..."). 16:05:55 GregorR: I have seen a better comment in some code at my company. "// always interested in children" 16:06:49 LOL 16:07:59 SimonRC: hahahah 16:11:30 since it was in a Listener (a.k.a visitor), someone named that the "pedophile Listener" 16:12:01 When I read that instantexe site, my instincts scream "no" 16:12:32 SimonRC: REAL. MEN. 16:13:00 zuff: eh? 16:13:07 SimonRC: instantexe.com homepage 16:13:23 eh?? 16:13:32 SimonRC: er, enable images? 16:13:47 uh 16:13:56 those three remars don't really fit together 16:13:56 unless you're blind I guess :P 16:14:07 SimonRC: enable images, look at the instantexe.com homepage, then read my remakr 16:14:09 *remark 16:14:26 oh, the building blocks 16:14:43 ... 16:14:49 SimonRC: http://instantexe.com/images/banner_real_men.gif 16:14:55 how blind can you get XD 16:17:30 strangely, I am not too good at spotting 1x1 gifs on web pages 16:17:37 SimonRC: what? 16:17:39 it is not 1x1 16:17:45 it's 576x234 16:18:06 "banner_real_men.gif (GIF Image, 1×1 pixels):" 16:18:07 * zuff thinks SimonRC lives in a bizzaro-web 16:18:12 SimonRC: umm, what. 16:18:23 Yeah, SimonRC clearly lives in bizarro-web. 16:18:31 GregorR: you can see it right?? 16:18:40 Of course. 16:18:46 Because I don't live in bizarro-web. 16:18:53 good, I'm not totally bonkers yet then 16:19:12 "0.04 kB (43 bytes)" 16:19:43 SimonRC: WHAT 16:20:05 sounds about right for a 1x1 gif 16:21:17 SimonRC: IT'S NOT A 1X1 GIF 16:21:19 AND IT'S NOT 43 BYTES 16:21:35 SimonRC: How's that extremely brutal firewall you're clearly behind treatin' you? :P 16:21:49 oh 16:21:50 hahah 16:23:15 ok, so I tried loading it onto another shell server, and I find that it is large file as you said 16:23:35 but loading onto my laptop from that server again gives a 1x1 gif 16:23:44 lol wat 16:24:32 I had to wget it into the shell account, zip it, move it to public_html, download it onto my laptop, and unzip it to get the damn picture. 16:24:36 XD 16:24:40 WTF 16:24:48 SimonRC: How's that extremely brutal firewall you're clearly behind treatin' you? :P 16:24:57 GregorR: you already said that 16:25:02 SimonRC: yes, he did 16:25:03 I realize that. 16:25:40 Hahaha, Copyright © 2006 XELERATE Software 16:25:58 lol 16:26:01 EX ELLERATE 16:26:09 So what are you doing tommow then? Telling some people in wheelchairs to get better legs? 16:26:25 * SimonRC is in a surprisingly bad mood 16:26:29 baww 16:26:43 well, good analogy, except for the part where that's a terrible analogy 16:27:12 well, it is bloody inconvinient and I can't do anything about it 16:27:17 and? 16:27:19 sounds like a good analogy to me 16:27:50 -!- Corun has joined. 16:28:08 anyway, the consequences are as bad as I feared: http://www.instantexe.com/index.php?link_id=N_forum_entry&board_id=9&topic_id=254 16:28:24 ... 16:28:26 fucking hell 16:28:30 i love it 16:28:44 wait, are they passing around programs in base64? 16:28:45 wow. 16:28:52 alas, TDWFT probably wouldn't accept it, since it is very amature coding 16:29:05 amature english, too OH SNAP 16:29:25 <.< >.> 16:29:36 "On top of those you have created, Instant.EXE contains a lot of predefined variables. Let's use some of those!" 16:29:38 OH BOY 16:29:42 XD 16:29:45 YAYY 16:31:36 I think the retarded name for the project is really the best part though. 16:31:39 INSTANT.EXE!!! 16:31:41 YAAAYS 16:33:34 OH SHI- 16:33:40 You instantenuated me dude! 16:34:01 Sorry, I was readjusting the gigaflux 16:34:03 'I would recommend to make use of this function, since otherwise you might forget the “Loop endâ€-statement and spend hours debugging your code.' 16:34:09 It doesn't detect that as a syntax error? X-P 16:34:12 GregorR: XD 16:34:15 Or at LEAST a semantic error? 16:34:29 Enterprise coding 16:35:18 I like how there is a forum for "Loops and Subroutines" 16:35:41 that is so 50s 16:44:40 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 17:01:55 -!- Judofyr has quit. 17:03:42 -!- Slereah- has joined. 17:07:44 -!- oklopol has joined. 17:09:46 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:34:29 -!- Incrediblon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:09:23 -!- Judofyr has joined. 18:13:51 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 18:24:12 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:25:56 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird. 18:51:17 -!- jix has joined. 19:35:52 -!- Corun has joined. 19:35:57 lalala 19:36:59 i 19:37:23 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:38:01 hi ehird 19:38:10 hmm 19:38:14 who changed my name? 19:38:17 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff. 19:38:45 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 19:39:35 o.o 19:44:45 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:46:38 -!- olsner has joined. 19:47:59 ;) 19:54:42 oklopol 19:59:07 ;) 19:59:45 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:42:46 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:42:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:47:02 ah hi zuff 21:47:13 what 21:47:27 just saying hi, nothing wrong with that 21:47:38 thought you were ehird first heh 21:49:01 hey wait a minute 21:49:19 i still do 21:51:21 -!- LinuS has joined. 21:55:45 -!- Slereah- has joined. 23:10:04 Lots of spam on the wiki lately. 23:10:12 ufg 23:10:13 *ugh 23:10:25 -!- damianc has joined. 23:10:35 any idea how to read a process descriptor in a task_struct? 23:10:42 damianc: Hm? 23:10:52 Wrong channel, maybe? 23:11:58 oh right 23:12:02 -!- damianc has left (?). 23:12:22 well, someone here probably knows 23:12:36 oerjan: he's gone already 23:12:49 oerjan: that's the damien conway of perligata, btw. 23:13:13 He mistakenly found exactly the right channel XD 23:13:42 aha :D 23:14:37 hahahahah, apparently he typoed "esoteric" for "c" 23:14:37 well that makes it harder, since we would have to tell him in latin. maybe ais523 could manage. 23:15:03 um, has he been here before? 23:15:17 otherwise that's rather an accident 23:15:41 dunno. 23:15:42 not everyone can accidentally #esoteric 23:15:49 I'll grep 23:15:55 i accidently the verb 23:16:30 i dropped the main word 23:16:31 wait wait 23:16:31 bsmntbombdood: 23:16:34 THE WHOLE VERB?? 23:16:43 oerjan: never here before 23:18:40 darn 23:18:51 we should all pester him until he comes back 23:18:59 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:19:13 i accidently forgot the 23:19:35 bsmntbombdood: i dropped the wrong word 23:19:35 or, i accidently the AND the! 23:20:06 who wants to play 23:20:07 ESOLANG 23:20:08 TENNIES??? 23:20:11 TINNES 23:20:12 TENNIS 23:22:20 http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Paul_Sally 23:22:24 Read that shit people 23:22:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Sally 23:22:34 That dude is a math pirate 23:22:36 Literaly 23:22:40 It's on his wikipedia page 23:22:50 He wears an eye patch and has two prosthetic legs 23:22:51 duuuuuuuuuude 23:23:39 He couldn't be pirater if he had hooks for hands. 23:24:01 Slereah-: Yes. Yes he could be. 23:24:04 "If there is a subset of the reals and it's cardinality is greater than aleph naught and less than C and it's Lebesgue measureable, then it has measure zero and we don't care." 23:24:14 And his jokes are awesome for nerds 23:31:08 http://search.cpan.org/~dconway/Quantum-Superpositions-1.03/lib/Quantum/Superpositions.pm 23:31:12 Okay, damien conway is awesome 23:31:17 that library would be sooo useful 23:31:22 i think if i had had such a teacher i would have snapped and gone on a killing spree 23:31:41 but hey, what do i know 23:33:03 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 23:33:18 oerjan : Ever went on a killing spree? 23:33:24 not yet 23:34:02 unless you include that ant invasion this spring 23:34:34 i was _trying_ to let them out alive, but they just kept coming back 23:34:44 You sound like Rambo. 23:34:53 I DIDN'T DRAW FIRST BLOOD! 23:43:02 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. Sì, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 2008-12-08: 00:13:22 -!- kwertii has joined. 00:45:00 Heh. Even though I use base64 encoding, I still get over 100x compression: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p523415122.txt :) 01:00:11 What are you compressing? 01:32:27 -!- oerjan has quit ("His brain, perhaps?"). 01:32:28 rgba image data 01:33:09 8 bit per channel 01:33:54 three images, each 288x288x32 bits long 01:37:19 What are they images of? 01:38:24 Analog computer tolerances? 01:43:40 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection timed out). 01:44:49 Simplest would be to run the script. They are image-components used to generate block-pieces that could be used in a tetris-game or other game with rectalinear blocks. 01:46:08 -!- AnMaster has joined. 02:11:21 -!- kwertii has quit ("bye"). 02:25:35 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 02:37:16 -!- kwertii has joined. 03:12:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:13:24 -!- kwertii has quit ("bye"). 03:14:32 -!- decipher has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:14:40 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 03:18:09 -!- decipher has joined. 03:19:41 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:19:42 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 04:14:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:35:19 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:35:45 -!- Asztal has joined. 06:00:21 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:38:45 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 07:11:11 -!- olsner has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:21:56 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:01:59 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:24:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 09:47:06 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:52:52 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 10:10:09 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 11:40:11 -!- jix has joined. 11:40:17 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:41:03 -!- LolaCaida has joined. 11:41:04 -!- jix has joined. 11:41:35 -!- LolaCaida has left (?). 11:43:41 -!- LolaCL has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:48:34 -!- Sgeo has joined. 11:54:21 p-adic analysis <<< i kinda lolled when reading this as p-dantic analysis 11:54:27 that might be a fun subject 11:56:36 "One of my students once asked me what the p-adic norm measures. I told him it measures the p-ness of a rational number." 11:59:56 did he also say "arrrr" 12:00:43 Most probably. 12:00:55 yes very likably 12:01:09 I think one of my favorite quote is "Now that I'm going to have a second prosthetic leg, I could be seven feet tall if I wanted to be." 12:03:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:06:47 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 12:35:55 Bleck. I managed to stay up until about 6... At this point, there's basically little point in me going to sleep. 12:37:01 you could pretend - TO BE A VAMPIRE 12:37:57 Bweheheh. 12:38:14 Well, I *am* a creature of the night. 12:38:33 Especially on weekends, where I typically go to sleep a little bit after sunrise. 12:41:04 -!- jix has joined. 12:59:22 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 13:11:57 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:44:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:45:49 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 14:01:32 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird. 14:02:06 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff. 14:34:50 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 14:38:20 -!- sebbu has quit ("reboot"). 14:47:33 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird. 14:47:55 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff. 14:48:16 -!- ais523_ has joined. 14:54:22 Haldo, folk. 14:54:29 hi 14:54:32 hi. 14:54:49 hi 14:54:51 gwættmidda 14:55:01 Sleep is for mere mortals. 14:55:26 I am a mere mortal. 14:55:43 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:55:43 Therefore, you are denied the joys that come from not sleeping. 14:55:44 I am a mer-mortal 14:56:01 oerjan: Is that kinda like a were-mortal? 14:56:08 except more fishy 14:56:16 pikhq: I've had stupid sleep patterns over the last few days 14:56:29 I slept from 10am to 7pm last Sunday 14:56:36 I've had stupid sleep patterns for the past week. 14:56:37 and not at all Saturday evening 14:56:45 And managed to sleep through most all of my classes. 14:57:08 it was weird, actually; I dreamed that the real life courts were called in to settle a dispute in a Nomic because it became relevant somehow 14:57:09 i still find it hilarious that damien conway of perligata fame came in here instead of ##c by the most unlikely typo ever yesterday (i grepped, he's never been here before) and promptly left when he realised XD 14:57:23 *Conway*? 14:57:34 Yeah. This'un: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damian_Conway 14:57:43 and TAEB had become a physical robot and was zooming around, someone had given it a high-power welding laser and it was fixing cracks in metal window frames 14:57:56 Not as cool as who I was thinking of. 14:58:04 pikhq: no, not that conway. _that_ would have been impressive. 14:58:05 different Conway 14:58:11 I did say Damian. 14:58:12 :P 14:58:14 but how does someone manage to typo #esoteric rather than ##c? 14:58:16 oerjan: Yeah. 14:58:19 ais523_: :) 14:58:22 ais523_: I have no effing idea. 14:58:25 None at all. 14:58:25 must have been a misclick on a list of IRC channels 14:58:29 that's the only thing I can think of 14:58:35 maybe he /whoised one of us 14:58:36 e isn't exactly close to c 14:58:40 i have a pet theory that psygnisfive is really David Madore. 14:58:43 thought "ah, I want to visit ##c" 14:58:51 ais523_: he asked a question 14:58:51 tried to click on it and hit #esoteric which was next to it in the channel list 14:58:57 so he probably only started an irc client to go there and ask it 14:59:02 he was in no other channels, i checked 14:59:02 er wait 14:59:11 darn i've mixed up the evidence 14:59:34 I think he'd probably find it very amusing that we think of him mostly for Perligata 15:00:09 i asked him where he meant to go in /msg and he said ##c, then I said as a side-note that we like perligata in #esoteric 15:00:13 (his reply was "ok") 15:00:24 (translation: "you're all bonkers") 15:01:01 Hahah. 15:01:13 We are, indeed, bonkers. But that's beside the point. 15:01:28 http://search.cpan.org/~dconway/Quantum-Superpositions-1.03/lib/Quantum/Superpositions.pm i actually expected this to exist when I started programming 15:01:31 I always wished I could do: 15:01:36 if (a == (1 || 2 || 3)) 15:01:41 as in, "if a is one of 1, 2, 3" 15:01:49 that's if ($a == any(1,2,3)) with that 15:01:52 that's so original 15:01:55 zuff: i think Icon has something like that 15:02:02 oklopol: i never said it was unique 15:02:03 Unfortunately, I've not been doing much esoteric programming of late... 15:02:07 but it was just so expected 15:02:13 member(a,[1,2,3]) 15:02:20 *member(A,[1,2,3]) 15:02:21 Instead, I've been doing CS homework in a slightly obfuscated style, making graders hate me. 15:02:22 ais523_: that's a bad idiom, though 15:02:31 it doesn't reflect what it actually is saying 15:02:34 zuff: and i never said it wasn't unique! in fact i meant something between sarcasm and not sarcasm that made that somehow relevant. 15:02:44 Python's syntax for that, "a in [1,2,3]" is marginally better in that respect. 15:02:48 But still. 15:02:54 zuff: maybe, I'm actually thinking of that statement as creating the any(1,2,3) though 15:03:03 so you'd say member(Superposition,[1,2,3]) 15:03:09 then on the next line A = Superposition 15:03:15 read the docs :P 15:03:17 except I collapsed it for efficiency and shortness 15:03:34 I don't think you can do that in Python... 15:03:35 oklopol: you meant a superposition, obviously :D 15:03:52 at least, not as in b in [1,2,3]\na = b 15:04:01 ais523_: you can write Quantum::Superposition in Python, almost surely. 15:04:14 because it's impossible to write a snippet of Python without either knowing its context, or oepying 15:04:21 zuff: yes, but that's cheating, you're overloading = 15:04:25 or == 15:04:26 or whatever 15:04:29 ais523_: you write python at 0-indent 15:04:39 that's just organizational structure 15:04:40 sorry, been using single-equals-for-equality langs too much recently 15:04:50 als 15:04:51 also 15:04:56 Quantum::Superpositions overloads == 15:04:57 and stuff 15:05:00 yes, obviously 15:05:05 the Prolog program works without overloads 15:05:13 umm, yes? 15:05:16 IIRC you can overload = in Prolog, doing so would be crazy though 15:05:26 it's quite easy to overload fail by mistake to make it succeed 15:05:39 I've never tried to run a program that does that, though 15:05:43 probably luckily for my sanity 15:09:00 you have sanity? i'm afraid we must kickban you. 15:09:09 * zuff nods. 15:09:10 well, I'm leaving now anyway 15:09:16 YOU CANNOT ESCAPE 15:09:20 but I see your point 15:09:22 -!- ais523_ has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 15:09:26 AGH 15:09:28 :D 15:15:28 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 15:19:52 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TswTenrEwwM 15:31:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 15:51:04 hi ais523 16:01:33 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:16:37 zuff: by the way, I just tried to unsubscribe from one of the Wolfram mailing lists 16:16:43 lol 16:16:50 which I don't think I deliberately subscribed to, it was some automatic subscription for some reason 16:17:00 and got "please allow 2 business days for your request to be processed" 16:17:18 hahahahahah 16:17:18 * ais523 wonders why a mailing list would need time to process unsubscription requests, do they do it manually? 16:17:28 probably, just like the mathematica trials 16:17:50 I've maintained a mailing list before now by hand 16:18:00 but unsubscription requests effectively took effect immediately 16:18:07 because I checked for them before sending out messages 16:18:08 [[speaking of which, mathematica 7 has found its way onto the torrent sites, but only the windows version...]] 16:18:12 which was also done by hand 16:18:22 <.< >.> 16:18:49 AND YOU SAY WINDOWS ISN'T GREAT! 16:19:20 my trial version of Mathematica was the Windows version, btw 16:19:32 partly because that was the only OS I had access to at the time 16:19:38 to be honest, I'm not sure I _want_ to try and run mathematica on here 16:19:41 how much memory does it use? 16:19:49 I'll bet more than Photoshop, and damn is that thing slow. 16:19:50 zuff: don't know 16:19:56 it used lots when running something complex 16:20:03 to the point that it was hard to get into the GUI to kill the process 16:20:07 Photoshop consistently uses, like, 200 MB. 16:20:13 (either Mathematica's process-kill GUI, or Windows') 16:29:44 I should write something in Perl. 16:29:51 Just to kill myself. 16:29:59 why? 16:30:07 I don't think there's an ACME::Suicide yet, by the way 16:30:07 Why not? 16:30:19 but I suggest not thinking about Mathematica, your life will seem happier almost instantly 16:30:24 Also, Acme/Suicide.pm is a link to Editor/PerlEmacs.pm. 16:30:57 PerlEmacs? 16:31:24 ais523: That is the result of someone selling their soul to satan in return for a copy of emacs written in perl. 16:31:56 http://guyro.typepad.com/blog/2008/12/google-i.html 16:32:33 [[Only that Google used Python for its robots. ]] <- um, no. 16:34:05 going for a bit 16:59:35 -!- jix has joined. 16:59:39 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:59:59 -!- jix has joined. 17:00:03 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:00:25 -!- jix has joined. 17:03:23 ais523, hello 17:03:29 ais523, see /msg when you get back 17:03:52 AnMaster: his bouncer tells him of private messages. 17:03:58 please don't tell the channel about private messages... 17:07:44 zuff, true, the issue was I wrote them yesterday evening and he haven't noticed them, he doesn't seem to read the stored messages unless you ask him 17:07:52 :/ 17:08:09 he reads mine, maybe he just has nothing to say? 17:08:10 (it was about some errors in the ick manual 17:08:17 ) 17:08:19 zuff, maybe 17:08:20 hm 17:08:27 the highlight in-channel is the same as the highlight from -psyBNC's private message 17:08:29 :P 17:08:55 * zuff watches a car evolve (http://www.wreck.devisland.net/ga/, flash) 17:09:28 Dammit, you're breeding the wrong ones! Stupid evolution! 17:10:01 car evolution? sounds interesting enough to make the complex stuff needed to reach flash 17:10:17 AnMaster: what? I meant it's coded in flash 17:10:30 (disclaimer: if that was a joke, i ignored it because it's the least funny thing ever) 17:10:46 no just a misunderstanding 17:10:55 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:10:56 I just don't have flash on this computer 17:10:58 it's a bunch of polygons :P 17:11:02 but the title was interesting enough 17:11:07 GOOD EVENING NEWS MEDIA 17:11:07 Well, notrly. 17:11:11 that I'll ssh over and X forward 17:11:29 AnMaster: might be a bit resource intensive; unless your ssh connection is really fast :P 17:11:33 it's realtime 17:11:34 hi ais523 17:11:51 C'mon little car 17:11:52 You can do i t 17:12:01 wow interesting 17:12:04 ais523, see /msg 17:12:14 zuff, and gbit lan 17:12:16 works fine 17:12:20 ah. 17:12:35 oh wow 17:12:36 zuff, true, the issue was I wrote them yesterday evening and he haven't noticed them, he doesn't seem to read the stored messages unless you ask him <--- ironically, that's normally true, except I decided to read my PMs just before I noticed you said that 17:12:37 that is a good one 17:12:53 haha 17:12:58 I /playprivatelog, /eraseprivatelog all the time 17:13:03 I should probably put it on startup 17:13:04 oh wait 17:13:07 I know why its not playing back 17:13:15 I haven't got the command in the limechat startup 17:13:16 xP 17:13:20 zuff, it only evolves bad cars? 17:13:29 AnMaster: no, it evolves good ones 17:13:33 but it's frustrating :P 17:13:42 zuff, agreed 17:13:57 YES 17:13:59 YES THAT'S IT 17:14:01 COME ON CAR 17:14:03 YOU CAN 17:14:04 agh 17:14:15 yesssssssssss 17:14:15 it doesn't seem to learn at all 17:14:17 agh 17:14:22 AnMaster: define "learn" 17:14:28 it produces random mutations then breeds the best ones every 20 iterations 17:14:40 not exactly a fast process 17:14:42 but it's improving 17:14:49 zuff, the most successful wins, it seems to generate old ones again very often 17:15:00 probably some parameters need to be tuned 17:15:03 AnMaster: that'll just be because there aren't many really good ones 17:15:03 btw 17:15:14 what is the graph in the upper right part? 17:15:15 remember that it doesn't breed each step 17:15:17 you just get random 20 17:15:19 then it breeds 17:15:21 AnMaster: performance 17:15:31 ideally, it'd be an upwards slope 17:15:37 zuff, the green and black lines? 17:15:45 i think the green = avg performance 17:15:47 and black = best 17:15:50 ah 17:16:01 so the average performance is slightly improving, and the best performance kind of fluctuates wildly 17:16:05 well what are the red circles? the blue are the wheels I understand that 17:16:14 AnMaster: red circles make the car die when they hit the ground 17:16:20 also, stopping the car makes it die 17:16:27 blue circles are wheels, the rest is just connecting lines 17:16:30 which game is this? 17:16:34 ais523: not a game 17:16:35 http://www.wreck.devisland.net/ga/ 17:16:36 it's in flash 17:16:42 it's a car, evolving 17:16:43 AnMaster: all that would become clear if you'd just waited the minute it takes to evolve a car that somewhat works. 17:16:49 grr, it seems to eat a lot of ram? 17:16:53 oklopol: many minutes :P 17:16:57 AnMaster: unsurprising 17:17:04 zuff, OOM killer killed firefox 17:17:08 oh well that was it 17:17:16 the oom killer is batshit insane 17:17:20 the OOM killer is likely sensible in that case 17:17:26 zuff, the system has 256 MB RAM 17:17:27 after all, firefox does use a lot of memory... 17:17:28 ais523: fluke 17:17:29 would be fun to have a game where you competed with evolution in a task like that 17:17:35 AnMaster: 256 MB? ummmmm duh 17:17:39 oklopol: agreed 17:17:43 zuff, yes that system that has firefox + flash 17:17:51 although i'd kick evolution's ass, it's not an efficient procss 17:17:52 ah wait sorry, it is 512 17:17:54 not 256 17:17:57 you see terrain, then have a few minutes to build a vehicle to get to the goal, before your evolution opponent does it 17:18:07 and you could watch it go right next to you 17:18:11 i'd luv that 17:18:17 oklopol, code it then? 17:18:24 http://rogeralsing.com/2008/12/07/genetic-programming-evolution-of-mona-lisa/ evolving mona lisa dna 17:18:30 I've used systems with 256 MB RAM, before 17:18:39 haven't tried to run Firefox on them, though, nor would I if I were paying attention 17:18:42 ais523, it was 512 anyway 17:18:44 but sigh 17:19:49 incidentally, I was reading through a flamewar between two Linux devs on a similar subject 17:19:56 yes, it was on reddit 17:20:01 which was whether to swap things out of memory and use the rest for disk space, or not 17:20:04 as far as i know os x has no oom killer 17:20:06 *disk cache 17:20:22 I wonder if Windows has one, it's quite hard to tell 17:20:25 i'm happy with my system crashing and burning if i try and use more memory than it has, i mean, that's reasonable 17:20:28 just don't do that 17:20:54 well, it's one echo to a proc file to turn off overcommit and therefore the OOM killer 17:21:01 ais523, iirc I read that linux prefering disk cache over userspace data caused issues for youtube's database servers 17:21:04 should be default :P 17:21:08 preferring* 17:21:16 i wonder how much hd space youtube has 17:21:18 probably like 100 TB 17:21:22 zuff, breaks lots of apps 17:21:22 more 17:21:23 actually 17:21:24 like sbcl 17:21:31 1TB is cheap-ass 17:21:35 I bet youtube have like a petabyte 17:21:57 zuff, well these days iirc they use that google stuff since google bought them. 17:21:59 but that was before 17:22:15 ah, probably 17:22:28 googlefs and bigtable and stuff, prolly 17:22:29 in any case it was likely a bit less back then 17:22:40 it's weird to think youtube started in 2005 17:22:42 zuff, yes the same article said they were using that nowdays iirc 17:22:44 it seems way more established 17:22:58 also, I'm gonna genetically generate me some stuffs 17:23:10 like? 17:23:15 dunno. 17:23:23 i'll start off by genetically generating hello world as a string :P 17:23:30 not exactly hard 17:23:35 genetically generated algorithms sounds interesting 17:23:36 zuff: depends on the language 17:23:39 but probably hard 17:23:42 they tried that for Malbolge, and it took ages 17:23:45 if you got nothing like it to start with 17:23:47 AnMaster: not algorithms 17:23:50 even then, the case was wrong when it finished 17:23:52 http://rogeralsing.com/2008/12/07/genetic-programming-evolution-of-mona-lisa/ was just evolving polygons 17:24:01 zuff, well, wouldn't it be possible for algorithms? 17:24:02 ais523: that was generating a hello world program 17:24:11 i'm just going to evolve strings to it :P 17:24:14 oh 17:24:18 also that was on 256MB windows nt machines 17:24:19 and stuff 17:24:21 as it was in 2000 17:24:24 well, generating a hello world program in Text is pretty easy 17:24:28 it'd probably only take a few hours today 17:24:34 I remember reading about someone genetically generating a circuit to do some task 17:24:43 iirc checking freqs of input signal 17:24:48 and generating either on or off 17:24:49 hmm... how many programming languages are self-double-quining? 17:24:51 or something like that 17:25:01 as in, if you feed a program's result to an interpreter, you always get the original program back? 17:25:14 you could do that and still be TC, I think, although not BF-complete as you couldn't produce arbitrary output 17:25:18 mutations: remove random char from string, add random char to random part of string 17:25:20 * zuff does it 17:25:45 zuff, will probably work quite well, but what do you use to define "fitness" 17:25:54 AnMaster: hamming distance? 17:26:02 ah interesting 17:26:19 well 17:26:21 levenshtein 17:26:24 for variable length 17:26:36 you won't always generate the right length? 17:26:37 that mona lisa is not evolution 17:26:45 AnMaster: nope 17:26:47 stochastic hill-climbing search 17:26:48 ok 17:27:09 oklopol: stochastic searches are no fun in the cases where hill-climbing actually works 17:27:24 ais523: what do you mean? 17:27:34 oklopol: well, if there's more than one hill 17:27:38 then you often end up at the wrong one 17:27:46 you can do fun stuff like annealing to get around that problem 17:27:59 err sure, but i still don't understand your point 17:28:14 what do you mean they're no fun 17:28:23 oh 17:28:32 wait no oh, i'm still not sure :) 17:29:30 hee hee this will be such fun 17:30:20 how do you evolve algorithms? It sounds like an interesting idea 17:30:28 not sure how viable it is 17:30:34 AnMaster: tweak parameters for them at random 17:30:36 AnMaster: just like you evolve anything else, but invent a DSL of some sort to represent just your domain 17:30:36 I guess 17:30:40 or what ais523 said :P 17:30:46 hm 17:30:47 although I agree, evolving the whole algorithm is more interesting than just evolving parameters in it 17:30:55 ais523, indeed that was what I meant 17:31:19 zuff, also what is "DSL" in this context, it is not a distro, nor a type of internet connection 17:31:28 domain specific language 17:31:33 ah right 17:31:41 * AnMaster dislikes acronym overloading 17:31:45 i find the whole idea of evolving algorithms stupid 17:31:56 you can't create an algorithm by slowly converging to it 17:32:16 hm 17:32:22 I guess so 17:32:36 what ais523 said is just evolving fudge factors 17:32:54 creating an algorithm is about splitting the task into subtasks, "abstraction", that isn't really what evolution does. 17:33:03 in fact quite the opposite 17:33:51 about to evolve hello world! 17:34:25 well. evolution gets closer than, say, simple mutation, because you can evolve parts of the algorithm separately; the problem is there's no way to do a sensible enough fitness function that would actually let that happen. 17:34:31 oklopol, I remember reading about evolving a circuit... 17:34:43 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:34:43 evolving what about it exactly? 17:35:01 oh, there was a case where someone got a standard combinatorial logic chip 17:35:04 the logical structire? 17:35:07 oklopol, iirc it was like this: 17:35:08 no time-dependent hardware on it at all 17:35:11 *structure 17:35:19 it had programmable connections between all the and and or gates in it 17:35:21 1) random start on a FPGA 17:35:25 2) change randomly 17:35:27 fitness: 17:35:39 and someone decided to evolve an algorithm to tell the difference between a 10 Hz signal and a 1 kHz signal 17:35:55 despite this task being impossible in theory, they managed to evolve an algo that worked 17:35:58 input was a tone, task output +1V if input is 50 Hz 17:36:08 and +2V is it was 70 Hza 17:36:09 Hz* 17:36:16 -!- Slereah- has joined. 17:36:19 don't remember more details than that 17:36:22 iirc it worked 17:36:22 but nobody could figure out how it worked, there were something like 4 components that didn't connect to anything but the circuit stopped working anyway if they were removed 17:36:34 ais523: okay that's effing freky 17:36:34 I *think* I read about it in some popular science book 17:36:36 *freaky 17:36:43 but i can imagine something like that working 17:36:53 it's a continuous problem 17:37:03 you can very clearly see how much wrong it goes 17:37:10 yes, clearly it exploited things about the gates which worked in practice but not in theory 17:37:27 yes. that's very impressive, but doesn't really attack my argument 17:37:51 It's up to 'Hlwo'. 17:37:57 And iterations have slowed to a crawl. 17:38:00 'Hl wo', now. 17:38:01 Iteration 4. 17:38:06 ais523, ah the same one as I said 17:38:08 right 17:38:15 you remembered more detais 17:38:18 details* 17:38:19 I think I may have some optimization to do lest I afll asleep. 17:38:26 Or maybe I should iterate, say, 10 times instead of 100. 17:38:38 Or maybe just get a faster levenshtein 17:38:40 ais523, also iirc those other 4 components worked due to induction 17:38:41 It's slooooooow 17:38:43 iirc 17:38:44 also a hello world might work. but that's only because ehird did the abstraction part by telling it "h" is a subtask of "hello world" 17:38:56 i'm assuming that's the fitness 17:39:00 ais523: 17:39:02 I just linked to that article 17:39:03 :S 17:39:05 Up abov 17:39:05 e 17:39:18 oklopol: fitness is just levenshtein 17:39:36 zuff: you linked to a mona lisa article twice, afaict 17:39:42 ais523: oh 17:40:01 zuff: yes. doesn't change the fact you told it levenshtein is good. my point is in algorithms, the only problem is the abstraction, and evolution doesn't attack that. 17:40:09 agreed 17:40:20 with me or ais523 17:40:23 http://www.cs.nyu.edu/courses/fall08/G22.2965-001/geneticalgex 17:40:27 with oklopol 17:40:31 k 17:40:38 let's read 17:40:49 hmm i'm just going to tell it to avoid non-printables 17:40:53 it's not even interesting to watch it fuck with them 17:41:04 avoid = don't use at all 17:46:33 He,r! 17:46:36 dist 8 17:46:38 iter 4 17:46:52 what's your algo 17:46:56 is it actually evolution 17:47:26 oklopol: get current, 100 random mutations, pick the one with the least levenshtein distance to the target, make that the current one 17:47:28 repeat until equal 17:47:31 so, yes, evolution 17:47:44 mutation = delete random char, or, insert random printable ascii char at random point 17:47:48 starts off with null string 17:49:57 god this levenshtein is so sloooooow 17:50:02 neeed optimized c version 17:50:11 hey AnMaster, write a micro-optimized levenshtein distance function in c 17:50:12 :P 17:50:17 back 17:50:22 zuff, no thanks. 17:50:59 "Heul,r!" 17:51:00 iter 6 17:52:24 zuff, how slow is it? 17:52:31 really fast up to about iter 4-5 17:52:38 zuff, how comes? 17:52:38 at which point it takes up to a minute per iteration 17:52:42 and gets wildly slower each time 17:52:44 strange 17:52:49 AnMaster: levenshtein is a really slow algo, i think 17:52:52 oh I guess it finds no better one? 17:52:55 no 17:52:55 zuff, or? 17:52:57 just levenshtein 17:52:59 runs really slowly 17:53:06 really really really, because it's a naive recursive python impl 17:53:10 for such a short string? 17:53:13 yep 17:53:15 wow 17:53:16 thus why I need to hook into a microoptimized C version 17:54:01 http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Algorithm_implementation/Strings/Levenshtein_distance 17:54:03 checked that? 17:54:08 yes 17:54:13 i'm using the python version from it 17:54:17 ah 17:54:18 hm 17:54:20 but the emphasis is on the algorithm there 17:54:22 not the implementation 17:54:36 i.e. they're all naive and slooooow 17:54:40 try google? 17:54:43 zuff: that's not evolution. 17:54:54 that's stochastic hill climbing 17:55:02 oklopol: how is it not "evolution"? 17:55:10 it's evolving a string and picking the best one 17:55:22 well. 17:55:32 okay yeah i guess "evolution" doesn't mean anything 17:55:35 but it's not a genetic algorithm 17:55:46 i know 17:55:46 :P 17:55:51 * zuff makes a simpler version 17:55:55 "do one mutation, if it's better, use it" 17:56:17 well. guess it could be called "genetic", if you call asexual ones that... but that's really abusing terminology imo 17:56:34 zuff, what about actually generating the same length every time? And using hamming distance 17:56:42 should be faster 17:56:46 AnMaster: that would be cheating 17:57:03 true, but levenshtein looks quite complex 17:57:09 to implement 17:57:21 if not a: return len(b) 17:57:21 if not b: return len(a) 17:57:23 return min( int(a[0] != b[0]) + levenshtein(a[1:], b[1:]), 1 + levenshtein(a[1:], b), 1 + levenshtein(a, b[1:]) 17:57:26 ) 17:57:28 that's not hard 17:57:30 admittedly it's dogslow 17:57:34 zuff, in any case google to see if there is a better implementation? 17:57:46 i did, the python extension was a 404 18:00:23 So, when is a GA "real"? Hill climbing is a (1+1) selection strategy in GA speak. Even random search can be considered a GA, called (1,1) in GA speak. 18:00:23 GAs are more about the genomes and the mutations than about N > 1 populations. 18:00:26 oklopol: 18:00:29 people who use big words think i'm right 18:04:49 You need to either use dynamic programming, or caching to calculate the levenstein distance. Otherwise you end up with an exponential time complexity. 18:05:17 http://www.reddit.com/r/hurts_my_eyes/ AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH 18:05:28 MizardX: how would caching help? 18:05:58 It eliminates common sub-nodes 18:06:08 MizardX: i mean, what would i cache? 18:06:13 -!- ineiros has quit ("leaving"). 18:06:29 (a,b) -> resulting distance 18:06:45 -!- ineiros has joined. 18:07:15 MizardX: well i guess, i doubt there's that much repetition? 18:09:38 (a,b) -> { (a[1:], b) -> { (a[2:],b), (a[2:],b[1:]), (a[1:],b[1:]) }, (a[1:],b[1:]) -> { (a[2:],b[1:]), (a[2:],b[2:]), (a[1:],b[2:]) }, (a,b[1:]) -> {(a[1:],b[1:]), (a[1:],b[2:]), (a, b[2:])} } 18:10:46 ah true 18:11:00 MizardX: the problem is that lists aren't hashable, so I'm thinkin' there'll be some overhead :P 18:11:35 tuple(L) ? 18:11:41 shush commie 18:12:07 MizardX: btw, b is always hello world 18:12:12 I'm sure I can optimize for that 18:12:12 :P 18:12:26 substrings of "hello world" 18:12:29 well, true 18:12:47 ok, let's try this 18:12:48 You could store it as an integer 18:13:06 IndexError: list index out of range 18:13:09 zuff: what do you mean, lists aren't hashable 18:13:09 wat O.O 18:13:17 ais523: python. 18:13:18 hash(L) -> exception 18:13:21 since they're mutable. 18:13:28 zuff: that's just a failing of the language 18:13:38 we all know you hate python ais523 18:13:40 you can hash it yourself, instead 18:13:55 I mean, just because something isn't easy in a particular language doesn't mean it isn't possible... 18:13:59 but i happen to be more interested than coding this than hearing about how python is awful because of the WHITESPACE 18:14:08 and i know i can 18:14:10 i'm talking about speed here 18:14:17 since, you know, i'm optimizing 18:17:39 my god 18:17:42 http://www.reddit.com/r/hurts_my_eyes/ has broken my eyes 18:17:55 zuff: well, why did you visit a site with a name like that? 18:18:05 it was linked to on reddit :P 18:18:12 it's awful, and i love it 18:18:15 and it's awful and aaaaaaargh my eyes 18:18:29 what's wrong with it? 18:18:40 ais523: turn on css. 18:18:40 :P 18:19:00 and images 18:19:04 then kill yourself 18:19:09 for maximum ouch, use a mouse 18:19:57 * zuff blinks and nothing changes 18:20:05 it has invaded my skull oh god 18:20:07 zuff: I haven't actually visited it 18:20:13 with disclaimers like that, I'd be insane 18:20:29 ais523: it should be okay if you're not epileptic and have eyse made of steel 18:20:30 *eyes 18:20:59 zuff: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p613543526.txt 18:21:34 MizardX: nice 18:21:41 whoa 18:21:42 with a cache 18:21:45 it is so good 18:21:52 admittedly, it got really good then effed it up 18:21:57 but it's hovering 6-7 18:21:58 5 18:22:30 MizardX: gonna install yers 18:22:43 i expect fireworks 18:23:48 hmm... maybe should replace the "return na - x" and "return nb - y" with "ret = na - x" and "ret = nb - y" 18:23:55 yes 18:24:37 less try thissss 18:25:22 MizardX: yours is broken-ass 18:25:27 it selects the null string every time 18:25:53 >>> levenshtein("","hello world") 18:25:53 11 18:26:05 yes, and? 18:26:11 hmmmm 18:26:27 ohh 18:26:33 hmm 18:26:34 no 18:26:47 MizardX: ok, yours fails for lists 18:26:50 does it only work on strings? 18:27:05 I use ['a','b','c'] for easy mutation 18:27:12 wait 18:27:13 >>> levenshtein([1,2,3],[2,3]) 18:27:13 1 18:27:16 i don't have to, neat 18:27:18 but "abc" is ['a','b','c'] 18:27:27 at least in Prolog, that catches me out a lot 18:27:31 different sorts of quotes FTW 18:27:32 not in python. 18:27:33 wait, no 18:27:41 "abc" is [97,98,99]. 18:28:02 strings are lists of one-length strings 18:28:10 umm 18:28:12 MizardX: not in python 18:28:20 that's how they behave 18:28:22 but that's just not true 18:29:16 "abc" is [97,98,99]. 18:29:20 same as in erlang heh 18:29:25 I didn't know that 18:29:32 MizardX: yours definitely behaves differently 18:29:35 'abc' or just abc is the string 18:29:43 presumably that's the same in Erlang too? 18:29:44 MizardX: levenshtein is an operation on more than just lengths you know 18:29:45 ais523, ah that doesn't eixist 18:29:50 ais523, 'abc' is an atom 18:29:52 as is abc 18:29:54 but: 18:29:56 AnMaster: atom = string in Prolog 18:30:02 Abc is a variable but 'Abc' is an atom 18:30:07 yep, same 18:30:13 ais523, atom != string in erlang 18:30:20 barewords are atoms if they start lowercase or variables if they start uppercase 18:30:24 single quotes can atomise anything 18:30:27 MizardX: i'm putting the cache out of the function ofc 18:30:30 to cache future calls 18:30:31 string is a list that happens to contain numbers that are printable 18:30:37 surely that's sane? 18:30:42 also, most punctuation marks and punctuation mark combinations are atoms 18:30:57 ais523, not so in erlang iirc 18:31:17 gprolog's nice enough to give compiler warnings about accidentally redefining things like - or / for that reason 18:31:21 although not fail, apparently 18:31:37 it's so easy to write a :- stuff. fail. rather than a :- stuff, fail. 18:31:40 ais523, examples of such punct mark strings? 18:31:44 and the first redefines fail to be true 18:31:51 AnMaster: you can write, say, 4/6. 18:31:58 that's equivalent to '/'(4,6). 18:32:02 and defines a predicate called / 18:32:08 1> is_atom(/). 18:32:08 * 1: syntax error before: '/' 18:32:18 duh 18:32:20 2> is_atom('/'). 18:32:20 true 18:32:23 the only punctuation mark that has to be quoted to use it as an atom is , 18:32:24 no shit 18:32:35 ais523, so I guess it isn't an atom when free standing in erlang 18:32:54 and tbh, I'm not entirely sure why gprolog needs comma to be quoted 18:33:11 MizardX? 18:33:22 ais523, well I tried some punctuation, none of them are atoms 18:33:32 in fact if I don't quite the atom . isn't even valid inside 18:33:51 hm wtf 18:33:56 that varies between versions 18:34:05 in the last one it seems to be valid but undocumented 18:34:10 oh well 18:34:20 zuff: The cache is only relevant for the exact same strings, so storing it for future calls isn't going to help. 18:34:37 AnMaster: . is handled specially by Prolog, due to being used as part of syntactic sugar 18:34:40 MizardX: Are you sure? The same substrings will be found in later calls. 18:34:46 So they should be cached. 18:34:53 .(a,.(b,c)) = [a,b,c] 18:34:59 MizardX: Since the mutations only change one char. 18:35:02 and . followed by whitespace is an entirely different punctuation mark 18:35:04 ais523, well the docs says . isn't valid in an unquoted atom 18:35:06 So caching them would be _very_ productive. 18:35:13 in fact the only valid non-alphanumeric is _ 18:35:19 as far as I can tell 18:35:28 however it appears . is valid in the middle in some cases 18:35:30 AnMaster: heh, that's a variable not an atom in Prolog, and in Erlang too presumably 18:35:45 ais523, ? well not starting _ 18:35:48 I meant in the middle 18:35:57 6> is_atom(a_b). 18:35:57 true 18:36:08 zuff: Then you would need to use strings as keys, which would slow down the process. The cache would also get very large. 18:36:31 ais523, " also, most punctuation marks and punctuation mark combinations are atoms" 18:36:35 I was just checking that 18:36:37 in erlang 18:36:39 MizardX: The slowdown - would it be slower than your version? I think not. Also, large is okay. 18:36:40 Hm, wait. 18:36:44 no such are atoms when freestanding 18:36:50 My strings do one of two things to the current mutation: 18:36:52 Add a char, or remove a char. 18:36:59 I don't have to calculate the full levenshtein each time, do i? 18:37:14 ais523, anyway one thing I really dislike with erlang is the very very bad utf8 support. it seems to use latin1 18:37:17 I mean, I know the levenshtein of the previous mutation. 18:37:25 So surely I can calculate it for my trivial mutations? 18:37:58 AnMaster: no idea what gprolog does with UTF-8 input, my guess would be store the individual bytes of the input raw 18:38:34 ais523, same for erlang sadly, and then refuse to believe that list happens to be a string 18:39:22 ais523, how do you write a char in prolog? 18:39:25 like '\a' 18:39:27 in C 18:39:28 there is no char type 18:39:41 normally you use either a one-element string '\a' 18:39:44 or a number 1 18:39:47 hm 18:39:48 well, not 1, 7 18:39:51 for a \a 18:39:52 > [$a|"bc"]. 18:39:52 "abc" 18:40:06 $\a doesn't work however *tries to figure out why* 18:40:16 $\n works for newline 18:40:19 and $\t for tab 18:41:16 Hmm. 18:41:22 $\7 works 18:41:31 but then erlang decides it isn't a string 18:41:40 due to non printable 18:41:51 MizardX: Do you agree? 18:42:13 zuff, what if that cause a length change? 18:42:19 AnMaster: Of course it does 18:42:24 zuff: Maybe. I'm trying to test it. 18:42:28 It either increases length by one or decreases by one. 18:42:42 zuff, not just replaces existing char sometimes? 18:42:53 No. 18:42:57 ah right 18:43:02 then I misunderstood you 18:43:03 Replacing an existing character happens if a generation removes a char, then another one adds one. 18:43:09 It's simpler this way. 18:44:58 Hmm. 18:45:02 * zuff considers mechanical turk evolution. 18:45:07 that is, to evolve subjective things. 18:45:33 Just present the turkers with "Which of these (looks better/travels faster/etc)?" 18:45:38 mechanical turk? hm wasn't that some old automaton or something? 18:45:42 don't remember details 18:45:51 AnMaster: That's where the name comes from. 18:45:54 It's an Amazon service. 18:46:01 Basically, menial labor, over the internet. :P 18:46:34 The "turkers" (people who are bored and want a little cash) get to choose a task set by whoever, and then fill it in (e.g. "which of these results is most relevant for the term X" or whatever) 18:46:42 and get moolah from the person/corp setting the task. 18:46:50 (if the response is accepted) 18:47:10 it's got a big turker and task-setter userbase so it's been used a lot recently. 18:47:18 hm 18:47:21 ok 18:47:30 I fail to see why the name is relevant? 18:47:38 AnMaster: the mechanical turk was a hoax: 18:47:43 it was presented as a chess-playing automaton 18:47:45 but someone was inside it 18:47:47 ah ok, didn't remember that 18:48:03 well, the website is a hoax? you don't get your money? 18:48:06 no. 18:48:13 but it lets you do subjective computing 18:48:17 as if it was just regular computing 18:48:19 hm... ok 18:48:26 i.e. it acts just like regular computation, but there's people behind it 18:48:37 https://www.mturk.com:443/ 18:50:09 AnMaster: Some examples of the tasks submitted: https://www.mturk.com/mturk/findhits?match=false 18:50:21 Reward, there, being how much the turkers get for completing one unit of it. 18:51:11 * zuff considers submitting something like "Enter a random number" and doing statistical analysis on it. 18:51:53 the first result seems recursive or something? 18:52:14 AnMaster: What? 18:52:26 Answer a SIMPLE (fact or opinion) based question - quick and easy! 18:52:27 well 18:52:33 what question? 18:52:33 What about it? 18:52:35 it doesn't say? 18:52:37 AnMaster: It depends. 18:52:42 oh 18:52:44 they are groups 18:52:49 not specific questions? 18:52:51 AnMaster: Programmatically generated, yeah. 18:53:08 Probably it's something like a website or something where you can enter a question and get an answer from them. 18:53:11 That sort of thing. maybe. I dunno. 18:53:16 hm 18:53:35 If you're bored, 2c to answer random questions isn't bad. 19:08:27 true 19:10:12 -!- keymakertmp has joined. 19:10:52 if the paintfuck craze isn't over yet, here's a self-interpreter: http://yiap.nfshost.com/programs/paintfuck/pfipf.pf 19:10:57 it can be interesting to watch 19:10:59 for someone 19:11:30 it shows the program it's emulating in 2d grid, just as normal paintfuck interpreters do 19:13:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:13:18 keymakertmp: It's died down but I still like it. 19:13:18 go kveill 19:13:21 Also, wowzers. 19:13:28 what do you mean? 19:13:43 keymakertmp: there isn't that much PF buzz any more but I still like pf 19:13:48 aah 19:13:56 btw, what program is it interpreting 19:14:20 *[[n*e*]n[*]*] 19:14:40 ah 19:14:54 but it can interpret anything 19:14:57 just change the input 19:14:59 keymakertmp: does it wrap? 19:15:17 the grid does, yes. i decided to make it so because all the other interpreters seemed to work that way 19:15:26 the grid size can be changed to 19:15:30 instructions in esowiki 19:15:46 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:15:48 :) 19:19:27 well, i'll get going. if the guy who made the language is around someone let him know about this, hah. when running, remember to have enough grid size in the actual interpreter you're using. i've used pedro gimeno's interpreter which i recommend 19:19:44 -!- keymakertmp has quit. 19:19:47 hm would it be possible to do something like befunge does, so it wraps but nevertheless has an infinite grid? it seems a bit harder since you must predict if it will do an infinite number of moves 19:20:00 (for paintfuck) 19:26:46 painfuck? 19:30:10 oerjan, you mean predict if it will paint forever (then wrap) or just paint a large number and halt? 19:30:17 for a TC program? 19:30:26 sounds impossible in the general case to me 19:32:39 Thought: I would like JavaScript a lot more if "function" was something shorter, like "fun". 19:32:49 return foo.filter(function (a) { a == b }); 19:32:50 vs 19:32:55 return foo.filter(fun (a) { a == b }); 19:33:29 zuff, you obviously want erlang then, it uses "fun" for lambdas :P 19:33:32 Well, you need a return in there too: 19:33:36 return foo.filter(function (a) { return a == b }); 19:33:37 vs 19:33:40 return foo.filter(fun (a) { a == b }); 19:35:02 zuff: Python quickly runs out of memory (800mb+) when using the global cache with a long string. It starts trying to reclaim space and each generation gets really slow. By throwing away the cache after each check it stays at 10-20mb memory usage. 19:35:04 lists:filter(fun(a) -> a =:= b end., foo) 19:35:09 something like that 19:35:21 actually drop that . iirc 19:35:26 posts: function () { 19:35:26 return Post.select(function (p) { return p.author == this }); 19:35:27 } 19:35:31 To be honest, that isn't all that bad. 19:36:44 oh and foo needs to be Foo 19:36:59 and you need a list Foo and so on 19:37:47 Foo = [a,b,c,b,c], B = c, lists:filter(fun(A) -> A =:= B end, Foo). 19:37:48 that works 19:46:47 -!- Corun has joined. 19:47:08 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:48:56 AnMaster: i think i meant only if it moves forever without painting anything permanent. if it paints an infinite amount permanently then it wouldn't be able to fill the memory in finite time anyway. 19:49:20 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:49:21 so sort of like a glider, which should be detectable, i think 19:49:25 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:49:39 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:49:45 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:49:46 oerjan, is that decidable in the general case without running and seeing what happens? 19:50:00 no 19:50:17 but if you run, you should be able to detect repetitions after a while 19:50:28 hm true 19:50:38 the memory would divide into two blocks, one static and one which moves 19:50:54 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:50:59 i am also assuming the moving one doesn't grow, i guess 19:52:32 there are CA implementations that handle memory like that 19:53:15 hashlife? 19:53:36 perhaps, i recall xlife did 19:54:26 hm ok 19:56:14 yeah hashlife looks like that too 19:58:26 well xlife probably uses hashlife 20:00:09 don't know, but it definitely divided memory into regions 20:11:17 -!- olsner has joined. 20:21:23 -!- LinuS has joined. 20:24:57 hmm... how many programming languages are self-double-quining? 20:25:50 you could have a reversible self-modifying language that spit out the final program state at the end... 20:25:52 zuff: They are discussing different syntaxes for lambda-functions for ECMAScript 4. 20:26:08 except with directions reversed 20:26:34 oerjan: clever 20:27:36 for joke languages, i think rot13 counts :D 20:27:36 MizardX: ECMAScript 4 is officially dead, and most of its other changes were awful. 20:29:31 rot13 quine: 20:29:45 hmm, no 20:29:47 I was thinking m 20:30:02 zuff: anything without alphabetic characters 20:30:14 well yeah 20:30:15 :P 20:41:25 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 20:43:23 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:59:46 -!- Slereah- has joined. 21:08:01 http://www.lemonparty.org/ 21:09:59 LinuS: Fuck off. 21:10:10 what's going on here, and why? 21:10:15 ais523: lemonparty is a shock site. 21:10:19 yes, I know 21:10:24 comeon, it's a joke 21:10:25 but why has LinuS posted it for no apparent reason? 21:10:32 ais523: to shock people? 21:10:32 * oerjan didn't. 21:10:39 oerjan: did you visit it by mistake? 21:10:42 LinuS: It's not funny. 21:10:44 Go away. 21:10:52 you don't think it is 21:10:54 i don't think it counts as a mistake 21:10:59 that doesn't mean it isn't 21:11:09 LinuS: Gee, overall consensus seems to be that it isn't. 21:11:21 maybe the UK should block it rather than Wikipedia 21:11:25 I doubt anyone else here would find it funny. 21:11:41 ais523: the UK blocks Wikipedia? 21:11:55 oerjan: just one page on it 21:11:56 well i don't see people finding it that disturbing too 21:12:08 LinuS: Because we're not idiotic enough to click it. 21:12:08 but 6 of the major ISPs are routing all traffic there via a proxy server 21:12:11 If you _must_ have a smug sense of superiority into tricking people into clicking something they don't want, stick to rick astley or something. 21:12:18 ais523: What is the page, by the way? 21:12:35 the weird thing is i _thought_ "maybe this is a rickroll" 21:12:46 lol 21:12:50 zuff: it's linked all over the internet by now, just check any of the major tech news sites 21:12:53 oerjan: Rick astley video, old men orgy. 21:12:55 What's the difference? 21:13:06 i'll tell you a story 21:13:08 Oh, that album cover. 21:13:11 yep 21:13:20 Wonder if I'll get logged if I click. 21:13:26 Eh, who cares! 21:13:29 only that the rick astley video probably wouldn't have made me want to hit LinuS with a _real_ saucepan 21:13:34 the trouble is, ofc, that we have a Qatar problem now, that blocking just 6 people in the UK causes all Brits to be unable to edit Wikipedia 21:13:42 Object not found 21:13:44 Inspiring. 21:13:51 zuff: it's strange really 21:14:01 apparently, one of the ISPs puts a 404 message in the HTML, but a 403 in the header 21:14:02 Fucking UK government. /sigh 21:14:28 there are a huge number of ways around the filter, by the way 21:14:34 Yeah, like Tor. 21:14:36 just think of anything that sounds remotely plausible to work, and it does 21:14:40 you can go a lot simpler than Tor 21:14:51 ais523: Simple proxy? :P 21:14:58 simpler still 21:15:01 But it's the general sentiment of censorship that pisses me off. 21:15:03 I know something way simpler than Tor. 21:15:09 Just go to another computer. 21:15:14 It's foolproof. 21:15:18 Slereah-: Errr. 21:15:19 No ban can follow you. 21:15:22 Slereah-: that would require not being on a major UK ISP 21:15:23 That only works if you're right next to a UK border. 21:15:37 Or, say, you can swim across to france really, really fast. 21:15:40 Are we talking about a countrywide ban? 21:15:45 Yes. 21:15:49 Yeah, that's pretty hard to beat. 21:15:53 no, it isn't 21:15:55 Nationwide censorship. 21:16:06 it would be if it had been done at all competently 21:16:11 Well, not if you're a nerd! 21:16:24 I just use foxyproxy for my trolling needs. 21:17:17 http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/12/07/1253228 has lots of simple workarounds, but people have found one even simpler 21:17:48 -!- james has joined. 21:17:56 Hi james. 21:18:00 hi 21:18:00 howdy 21:18:06 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:18:52 james: what brings you here? 21:19:16 Just passing through. :) 21:19:28 :) 21:19:46 JUST ON MY WAY TO PAGE 10 21:22:11 -!- thutubot has joined. 21:22:21 +ul (:aSS):aSS 21:22:22 (:aSS):aSS 21:22:38 +ul (aS(:^)S):^ 21:22:38 (aS(:^)S):^ 21:22:40 i see we have a lot of unsavory content today! 21:22:41 hur hur ur 21:22:43 yay, good to have you back thutubot 21:22:45 *hur. 21:22:55 hey ais523, wanna start optbot while you're at it? :P 21:22:59 zuff: don't know how 21:23:19 $ cd ~ehird/optbot; ruby optbot.rb & 21:23:20 $ disown 21:23:25 disown? 21:23:42 disown detaches a background job from the shell 21:23:44 Shell is no longer responsible for the job. 21:23:48 ah, I use nohup 21:23:50 so that it continues running even when you logout 21:23:56 As do I. 21:24:02 feel free to :P 21:24:08 probably the best idea 21:24:11 I didn't know about nohup 21:24:27 ^bf >,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<[<]>[.<]!>,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<[<]>[.<] 21:24:27 >,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<[<]>[.<]!> 21:24:36 ^bf >,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<[<]>[.>]!>,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<[<]>[.>] 21:24:37 >,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<[<]>[.>]!>,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<[<]>[.>]! 21:24:51 ^bf >,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<[<]>[.>]!>,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<[<]>[.>] 21:24:52 >,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<[<]>[.>]!>,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<[<]>[.>] 21:24:55 third time lucky 21:25:04 hmm... is that cheating? 21:25:14 yes. 21:25:24 trivial dbfi quine: 21:25:29 well, it's a quine in /something/ 21:25:32 if not BF itself 21:25:32 (read)(print)(print !)(print)!(read)(print)(print !)(print) 21:26:01 hmm... you could get an Easy quine along these lines, probably 21:27:37 >+[>,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]>-<]>+[>,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]>-<] 21:27:41 that works, I think 21:27:45 now we nead an Easy interp to test it on 21:27:53 ais523: that's not an easy program 21:28:02 zuff: Easy the lang 21:28:03 that's some input to every easy program 21:28:14 oh, I consider the sample input to /be/ the program 21:28:23 that defeats the point 21:28:32 for your example, easy = bf 21:28:37 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Easy 21:28:42 !bf >+[>,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]>-<]>+[>,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]>-<] 21:28:47 !bf >+[>,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]>-<]>+[>,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]>-<]!a 21:28:53 !bf >+[>,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]>-<]>+[>,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]>-<]! >+[>,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]>-<]>+[>,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]>-<] 21:28:54 zuff, doesn't work 21:28:58 my example isn't bf = easy 21:29:02 because it takes input from the program itself 21:29:09 ah. 21:29:11 set up so the first half is the program, the second half is input 21:29:23 doesn't jayCampbell have an Easy interp? 21:29:31 prolly 21:31:02 +[->.[,>.]<[<]>[,>]]+[->.[,>.]<[<]>[,>]] 21:31:07 also, Easy's still listed as unimplemented 21:31:18 but it seems MizardX wrote almost exactly the same quine as me 21:31:25 just simpler, because I forgot that the input wasn't itself executed 21:33:19 lol i forgot the car thing running 21:33:28 the cars now get half a screen further \o/ 21:34:00 lo 21:34:01 l 21:37:48 but they've started dying in the beginning. 21:38:02 which isn't a surprise, but it's still funny 21:38:10 oklopol: relink? 21:38:16 http://www.wreck.devisland.net/ga/ 21:40:11 366 generations, 6623.56 seconds to evolve the string "crossover is applied on an individual by simply switching one of its nodes with another node from another individual in the population" :) 21:41:08 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p223433564.txt 21:41:21 MizardX: Stop doing things better than me damnit 21:41:28 ch = random.choice('abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz ') 21:41:32 Fail. That is so cheating. 21:41:46 Also, that is some slow generationing. 21:42:10 also oklopol 21:42:12 they're time-limited 21:42:18 so if they all get to the same place it's probably over 21:42:29 I've got a very good batch here. 21:42:32 err. 21:42:47 of course they're time-limited, they never die 21:42:52 right 21:42:56 they became balanced in a minute 21:42:57 but are they increasing in speed 21:42:57 or 21:43:03 yes 21:50:06 j is a pretty awesome language 21:50:21 Pffft. C's better. 21:50:21 i especially love the way function composition works 21:50:23 ;) 21:50:36 i don't really like c 21:50:39 :| 21:51:06 That's because you don't know the true *power* involved. 21:51:18 i'd like to see that evolution thing try to make a unicycle 21:51:22 pikhq: yeah sure :P 21:51:51 Ternary operators in ternary operators in ternary operators! 21:52:07 ! 21:52:22 (only when I'm a jerk) 21:52:22 so... 21:52:36 you're saying c owns j at writing expressions that are short but hard to read? 21:52:47 Basically. 21:52:54 :P 21:52:55 pikhq: you are wrong on this, I think 21:52:57 pikhq: you're delusional, or have never seen j 21:52:58 Probably not true, but language bigotry doesn't have to be logical. 21:52:58 and you know j? 21:52:58 :P 21:53:09 j is the son of apl fer chrissakes 21:53:10 Oh, who am I kidding? 21:53:11 except it uses ASCII 21:53:14 and is even crazir 21:53:16 crazier 21:53:24 J is ASCII APL. C got its ass kicked. 21:53:41 yes 21:53:48 * oklopol loves it 21:54:03 ... Unless you do inline assembly by defining char pointers to hand-compiled machine code? 21:54:08 >:D 21:54:21 i mean i have the feeling i won't change python for a language without some kind of objects, but this is definitely something i'm going to learn very goodly. 21:55:01 pikhq: well that's basically interpretation, in which case obfuscation is language-independent. 21:55:24 TAKE THAT 21:55:49 hmm wait 21:55:53 the topic is outdated. 21:56:04 no it's not 21:56:48 hmmmmmm 21:57:05 oklopol: you should code a thing that evolves a car out of primitive things 21:57:10 like, really simple things 21:57:21 something like that would be awesome 21:57:27 a connecting line, a circle (that doesn't roll, ofc) 21:57:28 well 21:57:29 it rolls 21:57:34 but it'd have to come up with its own connections 21:57:40 and yeah. 21:57:42 unfortunately physics engines are quite a mental exercise to get working. 21:57:51 So I've been told. 21:57:52 oklopol: write your own, it doesn't need to be realistic :P 21:58:03 zuff: i've written a lot of those 21:58:12 and i guess i could just use one of those 21:58:18 hmm. 21:58:31 except i guess i've only done stuff with ball vs polygon collisions 21:58:38 (because that's trivial) 21:58:40 you could have like, 21:58:51 plank, of various lengths and widths and stuff 21:58:58 ball 21:58:59 circle 21:59:00 tyre 21:59:12 a hub for connetions, tht makes them bend 21:59:15 (to tie it together) 21:59:19 and stuff 21:59:21 and i'm not comfortable doing collision math i can't derive myself (NIHS) 21:59:24 hmm 21:59:25 and it'd just start out as a mash of stuff that falls aprat 21:59:36 it'd have to go at like 20x speed to that flash one 21:59:41 but it'd evolve its own mechanisms 21:59:46 and add pulleys and gears and cogs 21:59:53 and it'll build a working vehicle 21:59:55 *eventually* 22:00:04 that'd be very neat 22:00:12 * oklopol puts on todo list! 22:00:24 oklopol: then, you add stuff to make weapons with 22:00:29 xD 22:00:31 and make cars SHOOT THE FUCK OUT OF EACH OTHER 22:00:40 CARVOLUTION SHOWDOWN 2009 22:00:40 yeah and sensors of course 22:00:43 yes 22:00:47 so they can become intelligent! :D 22:01:11 well. 22:01:12 oklopol: forget vehicle, make it evolve a robot 22:01:13 :D 22:01:18 it'll move eventually, robots have to 22:01:21 so you get vehicle for free 22:01:46 hmm... 22:02:01 i mean 22:02:02 you can have 22:02:04 so how about just having like an area where bots go around killing each other. 22:02:09 oklopol: well yeah 22:02:14 once it evolves single moving ais 22:02:22 you can put some more materials & fitness logic in 22:02:28 and they can evolve defense and stuff 22:02:34 just pit them against basic flying droids and stuff 22:02:38 then you can pit them against each other 22:02:46 heh. would be pretty neat 22:02:56 oklopol: preferably the fitness function's params would evolve depending on how well it does in practice 22:03:01 oklopol: you should try these techniques on this year's ICFP contest 22:03:03 and maybe you could build your own bots and fight themmmm 22:03:05 i.e. it changes its theoretical fitness function to match how the bot does irl 22:03:19 it'd be totally neato! 22:03:27 zuff: hmm? 22:03:37 oklopol: well i was just rambling :) 22:03:39 i'm not sure what you meant by this fitness function comment 22:03:40 okay 22:03:41 :P 22:03:50 well yeah second order evolution is an interesting concept 22:04:01 but that's a whole another degree of hard 22:04:06 true 22:04:31 especially as i'd want to make it a totally self-sufficient evolution system 22:04:58 (for which i like to use the term "life") 22:05:13 :P 22:05:34 i love this j tutorial, often it doesn't explain the syntax at all, just uses it 22:05:43 what could be impressive would be a reverse evolutionary program 22:05:49 then i use like 10 minutes reverse-engineering how i think it might work 22:05:54 which always stays the same, but seeks out better and better programmers to maintain it 22:05:59 and when i finally get it, i press "advance", and things are explained 22:06:00 :D 22:06:04 and trains up its programmers to become better at maintenence programming 22:06:08 *maintanence 22:06:14 *maintainence 22:06:14 lol 22:06:20 umm, not sure how to spell that particular word 22:06:22 ais523: i think it's called open sourc 22:06:23 e 22:06:24 which is strange for me 22:06:31 maintenance 22:06:32 os x sez maintenance 22:06:35 that's it 22:06:42 how did I manage to mess it up so much? 22:07:31 not sure. 22:07:39 high-maintenance is a very common adjective 22:08:57 oklopol: you know, that ai would be really funny 22:09:00 it'd look ridiculous, probably 22:09:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:09:16 made out of tons of planks and pulleys and extending/unextending arms and sensors poking out from everywhere 22:09:23 and i bet it moves by like rolling around and contracting X 22:09:24 XD 22:10:50 hmm. 22:11:07 do you think it should be side- or top-cam'd? 22:11:30 "view" might be a better term. 22:11:38 oklopol: well 22:11:46 i think that top-cammed would leave more possibilities 22:11:51 i.e. pushing boxes nicely and stuff 22:11:51 but 22:11:56 side-perspective, like the flash car, 22:12:01 is nicer to watch 22:12:05 yes 22:12:29 http://lexlibertas.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/i-divided-by-zero.jpg 22:12:35 also, the technicalities of moving around are not very interesting with top-view 22:12:43 unless you still have complex ground 22:12:52 but then you clearly should just do 3d 22:12:56 which i'm not going to do 22:12:58 yeah 22:13:34 because while i've read books about the subject, i somehow think that would turn out to be harder than the actual evolution part. 22:13:46 cuz i haven't actually done that. 22:14:12 so, my point 22:14:28 if it's top-cam'd, i'm not sure whether it's useful to make moving at all complicated. 22:16:20 then again, i'd definitely like the whole program to be somehow completely physical... 22:16:24 hmmhmm. 22:18:58 LinuS: it's going to be a cold day in hell until i click another link by you 22:19:11 I almost clicked, but noticed the person who sent it just in time 22:19:38 oerjan: is that a shock-site too? 22:19:47 how should i know? 22:19:47 I don't know about that one, but it seemed plausible from context 22:19:51 ah, ok 22:20:02 so either it's LinuS messing with us, or a shock-site 22:20:04 not useful either way 22:20:14 * ais523 puts LinuS on ignore 22:20:24 it isn't 22:20:32 it's a boring, unfunny image 22:20:44 I'll /ignore LinuS if he talks again, probably. 22:20:55 isn't that the same as just /ignoring? 22:21:13 ais523: off-by-one error 22:21:47 it's times like these we need graue. 22:22:02 why graue? 22:22:04 why do we need graue in particular? is the wiki down again? 22:22:09 what has LinuS linked in the past that was shocking? 22:22:52 i find that pic pure genius, but whatever, i've been reductio ad hitlerumed 22:23:04 lemonparty, oklopol 22:23:08 it's just a bit old 22:23:16 link lemonparty, i'll take the blame. 22:23:29 or i can just ggl 22:24:08 oh. 22:24:15 LinuS: nonsense! i have never heard that hitler posted shock picture links. 22:24:16 that's... so shocking. 22:24:29 they are not only old, they are also men. 22:24:35 * oklopol can't take it 22:25:09 oerjan: hitler was even banned from WoW and rickrolled a lot of times, check youtube 22:25:18 ah 22:25:36 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r9dzc0duUw 22:26:01 * oklopol likes boxes 22:27:16 22:25 LinuS: oerjan: hitler was even banned from WoW and rickrolled a lot of times, check youtube 22:27:28 ^ you're not funny and you're annoying 22:28:10 heh, zuff is even more of a bitch than tusho and ehird :P 22:28:32 oklopol: i think there's some kind of evolutionary algorithm at work there 22:28:35 sorry for being such a bitch to the absolute comedy gold of old men having sex and talking about hitler. 22:29:24 don't worry, not everyone can take jokes 22:29:29 it's not your fault 22:30:21 zuff: i don't think LinuS was being very funny either, i just didn't find him annoying 22:30:51 then again i can't be annoyed by anything right now, i'm having j 22:30:52 LinuS: except nobody so far has found anything you've said funny as far as I can tell, and you've been ignored by at least one person already 22:30:57 maybe your imaginary friends laughed. 22:31:07 :D 22:31:43 LinuS: now see, zuff is funny. try something like that 22:32:05 sorry, it's physically impossible for anyone but me to be funny. 22:32:10 i have a monopoly on funny. 22:32:17 oh. 22:32:18 well fuck 22:32:22 it's a shame 22:32:26 oh, you mean start flaming, telling "i have ignored you" and then talking to someone and acting randomly? 22:32:28 i'm considering leasing out funny 22:32:30 guess i can do it 22:32:50 LinuS: out of curiosity, have you ever talked about esolangs in here? 22:33:12 * oklopol hasn't 22:33:19 aha i've ignored you! i can't ready you! i'm leethaxor! i 0wnt you! joo! 22:33:26 can't read* 22:33:45 "question answering by method of trying to mock the asker and failing badly" 22:33:54 it's the future 22:34:27 i accidentally the future 22:34:55 zuff: i am sorry this is clearly a lie. i have a patent on the whole "pun" subfranchise 22:35:05 btw: have you seen ? 22:35:09 oerjan: yes, but your puns aren't funny. 22:35:11 no intersection. 22:35:16 that isn't a shock site, it's one of the world's craziest random number functions 22:35:26 me? talking about esolangs? 22:35:29 the probability distribution, to be precis 22:35:30 oh, no, never. 22:35:31 http://rafb.net/p/J9RrrL70.html 22:35:33 well then that explains it 22:35:34 *precise 22:35:44 oerjan's puns are funny! 22:35:50 LinuS: ah. i remember that one. I pretended to be mildly interested to humour you. 22:36:02 You're a saint, zuff 22:36:05 i'm not sure the ratio is one shocksite link per trivial esolang, though. 22:36:14 nobody told me if it is 22:36:24 "rnz produces such a bizarre distribution that it is hard to tell what the original programmer had in mind. It's quite possible that it was meant to be some distribution with Z in the name, but its construction doesn't seem to suggest one." 22:36:35 yawn 22:36:36 http://www.efukt.com/2339_The_Worst_Sex_Accident_Of_All_Time.html 22:36:41 Just doing my quota. 22:37:05 well what about goatse then? 22:37:21 Slereah-: well, you're Slereah- 22:37:26 ithink we all know not to click your links. 22:37:29 also, you actually talk about interesting stuff. 22:37:37 Do I? 22:37:46 I thought I mostly talked about butts. 22:37:49 ais523: that indeed looks more weird than just stupid 22:37:52 Slereah-: is that a shock site? 22:37:58 ais523: a porn site. 22:38:02 ais523 : Just look at the fucking link 22:38:05 "e fucked", "The worst sex accident of all time" 22:38:06 no, I don't 22:38:08 It's not rocket science. 22:38:12 I tend not to click on links in IRC anyway 22:38:16 I mean, read it 22:38:17 i mean, you can see all kinds of patterns, i've had a lot of "hey, maybe the point is... wait, no"'s 22:38:20 READ WHAT IT SAYS 22:38:26 especially not during a conversation about shock sites 22:38:29 It's quite shocking, yes. 22:38:35 ais523: he meant read the actual link 22:38:39 I don't even follow links zuff gives me, I ask em what's at the other end first 22:38:39 which made it fairly obviou 22:38:39 s 22:38:40 and ok 22:38:58 If you're a brave man, you can also click it 22:39:00 ais523: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu_moia-oVI 22:39:13 Heh. 22:39:19 1g1c is not very shocking either 22:39:30 Well, not by trolls standards. 22:39:31 i was like "when does this start?" when i watched it 22:39:41 same 22:40:04 the real of 1g1c is the caption 22:40:11 "If the hero's experience level is 18 or greater, then rne can return numbers greater than 5; but this event has low probability (1/1024 for all experience levels 18 or greater), and to keep this explanation simple it will not be considered." 22:40:15 *piont 22:40:16 *point 22:40:33 yep, rnz could only have been designed by someone who was very tired and didn't realise what they were writing 22:40:43 oklopol: maybe rnz could be some operator for noprob? 22:40:49 it's certainly weird enough, it might make it TC 22:41:03 map probabilities through an rnz-distribution 22:41:04 Heh. 22:41:15 :D 22:42:26 ais523: weirdness doesn't really give tcness... 22:42:39 oklopol: well, know 22:42:41 *no 22:42:45 it's more the simple logical stuff that does it 22:42:48 BUT IT COULD :o 22:43:01 Well, logical stuff, you usually know if it makes something TC 22:43:07 But something weird? 22:43:09 Who knows! 22:43:16 what i want for noprob would be to remove the whole probability thing... and somehow get data structures out of the "dependency graph" 22:43:23 i mean, it's an interesting thought 22:43:40 you have a lot of variables, and they are all linked in different ways through operators 22:43:45 in a large graph 22:44:17 you can't really access the inner nodes, because there are no such operatorsin logic, which is why you can't get data structures 22:44:25 but you can *create* data structures 22:44:31 ok 22:44:37 i promise this one to be funny 22:44:39 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5z4Vs26-TI&feature=related 22:44:47 no, it isn't a rickroll 22:45:05 so i was thinking maybe you could make primitives that somehow found existing variables that have certain correlations with the variables you're actually holding 22:45:18 but this is all so vague, and it completely nulls everything i had sofar 22:46:23 back 22:47:31 LinuS: heh, that indeed is funny 22:47:46 except for the fucking laugh track 22:51:20 bye 22:51:35 p.s.: 22:51:38 zuff, get a life 22:51:40 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. Sì, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 22:51:47 oh 22:51:50 my pitiful existance 22:51:50 ruined 22:51:56 ruined, i say 22:52:08 how can my life ever be as exciting and outgoing as mr lemonparty? 22:52:09 oh lodr 22:52:12 oerjan, oklopol, ais523 22:52:14 i can't take it any more 22:52:18 this will be the last you see of me 22:52:19 goodbye 22:52:20 -!- zuff has left (?). 22:52:27 -!- zuff has joined. 22:52:29 err guys 22:52:32 can i borrow some sugar? 22:52:33 oh. ok 22:52:34 -!- zuff has left (?). 22:52:57 -!- zuff has joined. 22:52:58 you sure? 22:53:02 not just a lil bit of sugar? 22:53:03 hmm 22:53:05 help a poor guy out here? 22:53:08 fine. 22:53:10 be that way. 22:53:10 what *kind* of sugar 22:53:13 i'll just go starve. 22:53:13 -!- zuff has left (?). 22:53:14 wait wait 22:53:17 oh dear. 22:53:21 he's such a speed-pants 22:53:27 -!- zuff has joined. 22:53:32 I'll have you know that sugar is very 22:53:34 nutritious 22:53:36 and by depriving 22:53:38 me of it you are 22:53:40 -!- zuff has left (?). 22:54:02 -!- zuff has joined. 22:54:03 i need 22:54:03 oklopol: I suggest brown sugar, because zuff seems to want nutrition 22:54:04 SYUGAR 22:54:07 can't taken it any more 22:54:10 i'm dying 22:54:12 need sugarhruyi 22:54:13 arkwoie 22:54:14 -!- zuff has left (?). 22:54:30 -!- zuff has joined. 22:54:32 hurhigdfkjdf 22:54:34 -!- zuff has left (?). 22:54:49 -!- zuff has joined. 22:54:51 r... 22:54:52 ro.. 22:54:54 ros... 22:54:58 rosebu-u... u 22:54:59 rosebud 22:55:03 uiahsdiaw67&!% ~ 22:55:04 34;ik2lo2ol953 22:55:06 -!- zuff has left (?). 22:55:29 -!- zuff has joined. 22:55:32 wow guys being a ghost is fun 22:55:32 LinuS is missing quite a lesson in internet comedy. 22:55:36 hey can i borrow some sugar? 22:55:43 I thought the whole point of bouncers was to avoid quitjoinspam? 22:55:43 p...please? 22:55:47 i'm... really hungry 22:55:49 need some sugar 22:55:50 even as a ghost 22:55:55 ais523: it's crucial to the act 22:55:55 oh god being a ghost is awful 22:56:01 oklopol: sugar? plz? 22:56:10 begging you hear 22:56:11 but really, we shouldn't be talking out loud in the audience 22:56:12 here 22:56:16 oh 22:56:17 I NEED SOME SUGAR 22:56:20 am i supposed to answer :| 22:56:23 zuff: err 22:56:24 i guess 22:56:25 YES 22:56:27 SUGAR!! NEED 22:56:28 i could think about it? 22:56:28 sdo 22:56:30 i'm 22:56:31 dying 22:56:34 ple 22:56:34 * oklopol hands out 22:56:35 -!- zuff has left (?). 22:56:38 -!- zuff has joined. 22:56:39 too late. 22:56:41 oops slipped on my keyboard 22:56:43 so oklopol 22:56:44 oh cool 22:56:45 how about some sugar 22:56:45 yeah 22:56:47 take some! 22:56:49 * oklopol gives 22:56:51 -!- zuff has left (?). 22:56:54 -!- zuff has joined. 22:56:56 whoops 22:56:58 butterfingers 22:57:00 :| 22:57:04 can i have some of thems sugar oklopol? 22:57:09 let's make them *sugar*fingers 22:57:15 * oklopol gives a large pile of suggah 22:57:26 suggah? 22:57:27 i need sugar 22:57:29 not suggah 22:57:34 plz? 22:57:45 please 22:57:47 i'm starving 22:57:58 :'( 22:58:00 ch--chk 22:58:00 of 22:58:02 sjpdfjasoi 22:58:05 zuff: I tried to DCC you some sugat 22:58:07 *sugar 22:58:08 g-g- 22:58:11 ais523: it failed 22:58:13 g-g-h-sho 22:58:14 gho 22:58:16 ghost... 22:58:18 ghostbud 22:58:19 -!- zuff has left (?). 22:58:25 -!- zuff has joined. 22:58:27 err almost forgot 22:58:28 dskfuY*@Y! 22:58:30 r32iy84324 22:58:30 someone else will have to give zuff the sugar 22:58:32 ```28907*EYHCX 22:58:34 -!- zuff has left (?). 22:59:19 -!- zuff has joined. 22:59:24 wow guys being a metaghost is fun 22:59:29 can i have some metasugar? 22:59:41 [22:59] [DCC] Upload of "sugar.o" to zuff failed. Reason: Timed out. 22:59:42 ~THE END~ 22:59:48 ^ internet comedy gold 22:59:51 yes 22:59:54 i loved that 22:59:55 no, it wasn't 22:59:59 not really that funny 23:00:02 ais523: 2 vs 1 23:00:09 democracy in action 23:00:11 i laughed out loud 23:00:21 there are a huge number of people here who didn't comment that it was funny 23:00:24 i chuckled at my own jokes. 23:00:28 (N.B. I know this is a fallacious argument) 23:00:31 ais523: there is no quorum in #esoteric 23:00:39 however, that doesn't mean its conclusion is wrong! 23:00:54 umm. 23:01:03 what's NB short for? 23:01:05 * ais523 applies ad logicam twice, to create a meta-ad-logicam that proves that if something is the conclusion of a fallacious argument, it is true 23:01:10 oklopol: "by the way" 23:01:10 have to ask, since it's also the j comment. 23:01:19 yes but i mean 23:01:22 it's some latin shit 23:01:23 what's it short for 23:01:24 :P 23:01:27 it's one of those acronyms that only work in Latin 23:01:31 "Nota Bene" 23:01:38 which means "note well", i.e. "note in a good manner" 23:01:38 hmm. 23:01:41 i've actually asked that 23:01:48 and you've answered 23:01:49 ais523: i think it means 23:01:50 note well 23:01:51 as in 23:01:56 note properly and carefully 23:04:12 this car is shit 23:08:11 have to ask, since it's also the j comment. 23:08:20 you mean the actual comment delimiter? 23:08:24 yes 23:08:27 IIRC 23:09:22 Algol had ¢ as one option for a comment delimiter, IIRC 23:09:45 NB. 23:11:03 fac =: 1`(]*$:@<:)@.* NB. i think this is a factorial, but i need to check 23:11:17 well definitely not! 23:11:28 oklopol: that's an ugly fac 23:11:30 it could be a lot shorter 23:12:23 oh. 23:12:27 1:, of course 23:12:29 it looks like a smiley 23:12:33 zuff: could it? 23:12:33 just a very complex one 23:12:51 let's see... 23:12:53 oklopol: surely, i mean, that's shorter in haskell: 23:12:58 fac n = product [1..n] 23:13:01 ais523: a smiley by something out of betelgeuse 23:13:09 hmm */1+i. 23:13:10 * ais523 goes home 23:13:14 well 23:13:31 */@(1:+i.) maybe 23:13:50 zuff: point is that factorial algo can't probably be shorter 23:14:18 and yeah that works 23:14:40 i'm having some trouble getting things right, as the tutorial i'm reading doesn't really formally explain what's happening 23:20:12 zuff: also fac=:! of course :P 23:20:17 lol 23:30:02 hey oklopol 23:30:04 ap[]}ASO)!I_)! 23:30:32 -!- jayCampbell has joined. 23:30:42 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 23:31:07 lol... dyadic # is overloaded, it's both filter and concatMap . replicate 23:31:42 o.o 23:35:04 -!- Judofyr has quit. 2008-12-09: 00:48:36 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 00:51:32 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 01:37:23 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:18:51 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 02:59:30 -!- Dewio has joined. 02:59:52 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:05:29 -!- Dewi has joined. 03:14:03 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 03:14:15 -!- decipher has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:17:37 -!- decipher has joined. 03:18:07 -!- Dewio has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 03:19:09 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:19:09 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 04:39:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 06:20:38 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:37:53 CHEESE IT, THE COPS! 06:40:33 Hahahah, they pulled over a pizza delivery car X-D 07:05:23 hai gregor 07:38:07 Wow. 07:40:45 -!- olsner has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:06:47 morning 08:16:20 mor 08:21:41 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:22:00 -!- oklopol has joined. 08:28:18 okay, project for c++ course: implement virtual machine for an object oriented scripting language :o 08:28:59 * oklopol likes 08:29:57 will HQ9++ do? 08:35:36 well actually everything is specced exactly 08:36:20 so i'll just make a statically typed language and compile into the vm, in case i feel like being creative 08:57:38 oklopol: you can build a JVM in a weekend 08:58:03 oh, they gave you a spec for it too 09:06:42 yeah, so it's quite simple 09:07:13 but, still the best project ever 10:30:56 -!- james has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:35:51 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 10:41:36 -!- Corun has joined. 11:45:40 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 11:51:16 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:52:03 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 12:04:27 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 12:44:04 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:03:59 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird. 13:11:27 -!- appletizer has joined. 13:29:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:42:32 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:57:55 +/%# 13:57:57 valid j code. 13:58:08 also valid line noise. 13:58:49 yes. 13:58:52 not even perl can beat that. 13:59:16 not even oklotalk can beat that :< 13:59:26 oklopol: what about cise 13:59:42 i think it might be a legal perl fragment though, if the / terminates a regex 13:59:55 well. in cise + sums the list, but i'll have to think a bit about the exact syntax of the whole 14:00:24 oklopol: +/ is fold + so it's sum 14:00:27 % is divide, # length 14:00:29 i assume you know that 14:00:32 well. /+# might work. 14:00:34 yeah of course 14:00:49 think i can't read j perfectly after two days of learning? 14:00:55 i wish i could 14:00:56 :< 14:01:10 oklopol: does /+# read from stdin? 14:01:12 it's pretty intuitive. 14:01:21 ehird: no it reads from the input stream 14:01:26 well input register 14:01:27 i mean 14:01:29 in cise 14:01:29 more like 14:01:34 nope. 14:01:34 intuitive in a hideous, non-euclidean way 14:01:38 it does in j 14:01:43 no it doesn't 14:01:53 oklopol: yes, it does - it's just that in j, code is entered on the stdin stream too 14:01:57 that's how function arguments work in j 14:02:03 (+/ % #) 1 2 3 14:02:04 the value of +/%# is just the boxed function. 14:02:11 ^ reads 1, 2 and 3 from stdin 14:02:16 when it is written to stdin 14:02:33 i think that's really nice, it's like forth 14:02:38 didn't know that. 14:02:49 anyway no cise doesn't do that 14:02:53 oklotalk does 14:03:10 oklopol: are you going to learn k next? 14:03:13 it seems even more concise 14:03:33 ehird: perhaps, the bottlenecks are mostly the same. 14:03:42 oklopol: link to where you learned j? 14:03:43 so i could prolly learn it in seccunds. 14:03:47 err. 14:03:52 i dl'd j602 14:03:56 there are these "labs" 14:03:58 ok 14:04:04 also, I think what's needed to get j even more concise 14:04:07 is implicit maps/folds 14:04:13 sum is just + 14:04:17 that has the nice property of: 14:04:19 1 + 2 14:04:21 and 14:04:21 + 1 2 14:04:23 being the same 14:04:39 +%# 14:05:27 not sure how you'd get shorter than that? 14:05:33 that only helps in that special case 14:05:37 it's reduced to the basic operations: sum divided by length 14:05:43 - 1 2 14:05:43 _1 _2 14:05:55 oklopol: what about it 14:06:03 - 1 2 would be the same as 1 - 2 14:06:05 implicit fold only makes sense for +, pretty impure to make it an exception 14:06:07 - 1 2 3 would be 1 - 2 - 3 14:06:16 ehird: - 1 2 was input 14:06:19 _1 _2 was output 14:06:31 oklopol: why is (fold - [1 2]) [-1 -2]? 14:06:38 ... 14:06:47 hmm 14:06:53 right you thought i okay. 14:06:55 :P 14:06:55 my point 14:06:59 j already has a meaning for 14:07:01 that 14:07:07 i know 14:07:10 + 1 2 ====== (+1), (+2) 14:07:12 i'm talking about how you make j even more concise :P 14:07:41 yeah, but i don't think hacks like that are very j'y (they definitely are somewhat j'y, but not *that* j'y), they are very cise'y though 14:07:48 well 14:07:55 + % # is a beautiful program 14:07:55 i mean 14:07:58 if we write it out in english: 14:08:04 sum divide length 14:08:15 it's the three operations that actually make up the definition of averaging 14:08:17 and no extra cruft 14:08:25 and that's really nice 14:08:53 yeah, but that has a meaning just as intuitive as is, div elems by list length 14:09:04 yeah but 14:09:08 the / in +/ % # is unneeded 14:09:14 +ing a list 14:09:16 is obviously summing it 14:09:20 that's just what it is 14:09:24 adding a list 14:09:35 so it can be implicit 14:09:36 sorry, i disagree. 14:09:55 oklopol: what other meaning does adding a list have? 14:10:20 I DISAGREE 14:10:24 oklopol: well, tell me 14:10:32 don't make me use supercase... 14:10:35 because if you can't think of one, i'm pretty sure it's intuitive that adding a list is summing it 14:10:59 well yeah of course fold is more intuitive than map for +, because unary plus is a fucking useless operation. 14:11:28 oklopol: for all OP, I'm not sure "OPing a list" makes sense as mapping op over list 14:11:31 but something like having unary + be abs would be much more sensible imo, and keeping the implicit map 14:11:31 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 14:11:33 find an OP where it does 14:11:45 ehird: that's really at war with the whole idea of j 14:11:50 i know, so what 14:11:52 answer me 14:11:52 :P 14:11:55 err. 14:12:02 write some j. it's all about mapping 14:12:06 ... 14:12:08 i don't care about j 14:12:10 goddamn 14:12:10 wait, yeah, i said correctly 14:12:14 I'm asking a question 14:12:15 answer it 14:12:35 what, - makes sense over a list 14:12:43 as does really any unary operator 14:12:46 - 1 2 3 14:12:48 makes sense to me as 14:12:50 1 - 2 - 3 14:12:56 if you want negation, use _ 14:12:58 _ 1 2 3 14:12:59 = 14:12:59 oh. not to me. 14:13:02 _1, _2, _3 14:13:18 (monadic funcs are mapped, dyadic ones are folded, is my current thinking) 14:13:21 whatever, i don't agree with any of this. 14:13:28 don't you care about tiny prgorams? :P 14:13:45 bleh. 14:13:54 almost all j operators are both unary and binary 14:14:07 eh, you can do some contexterizing to find out which you want 14:14:10 and mapping the unaries is usually what you want. 14:14:20 err... k. 14:14:25 that sounds like something cise would do 14:14:27 +_ 1 2 3 14:14:29 not very j'y still 14:14:29 => 14:14:30 -6 14:14:35 oklopol: i don't want something j'y 14:14:39 i want something concise and cool :P 14:14:47 I REFUSE TO UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT OF VIEW 14:14:50 +_ 1 2 3 -> -6 makes perfect sense imo 14:15:05 * oklopol is in a hurry, and just wants to disagree 14:15:09 lolz 14:15:12 not that that makes any sense 14:15:20 :P 14:15:41 the only problem is 14:15:42 ascii 14:15:43 is 14:15:45 too 14:15:47 small 14:15:49 :'( 14:16:02 must leave, yeah, you're right, i like that unary = map, binary = fold thing; assuming you clear up what "contexterizing" is 14:16:04 :) 14:16:06 yeah it is 14:16:10 oklopol: well, bye but 14:16:15 WE SHOULD INVENT, LIKE, A SYSTEM WITH MORE CHARS 14:16:15 i think functions should have like 14:16:16 either 14:16:18 * oklopol goes ----> 14:16:20 "mainly unary" 14:16:20 or 14:16:22 "mainly binary" 14:16:26 which flips their map/fold behaviour 14:16:29 and you can override it explicitly 14:16:32 if you really need to 14:16:36 haha, that's lovely :) 14:16:36 bye 14:16:39 buttttt 14:16:42 yeah bye -> 14:17:33 like to fold _ would be 14:17:44 /_ 1 2 3 14:17:47 whatever 1 _ 2 _ 3 does :P 14:18:37 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:19:55 ehird: depends, in j _ isn't really an operator, it's an inherent part of a number, just like the haskell - 14:20:00 not that i'm not gone, i definitely am. 14:20:00 oklopol: haha you're back :D 14:20:03 (->) 14:20:03 but oklopol 14:20:07 poop 14:20:07 :P 14:20:26 hmm 14:20:30 factorial: 14:20:39 wellll 14:20:43 depends on the range syntax 14:20:49 if we say it's a boring func for the sake of example 14:20:57 * range 1 14:21:24 hmm if we say it's .. then 14:21:28 n!=*1..n 14:21:30 lovely 14:21:57 in cise: *:, where : is range 14:22:16 oklopol: hm but 14:22:18 range is 1..n inclusive here, because * doesn't like zeroes :) 14:22:22 how does the starting 1 get there 14:22:23 annnd 14:22:24 what 14:22:31 esplain 14:22:33 "like"? 14:22:39 cise has the concept of "liking" for functions, they can tell what types they prefer 14:22:39 -!- jix has joined. 14:22:48 and range can be either 0..n-1 or 1..n 14:22:48 and other functions try to give them it? 14:22:48 XD 14:22:56 :) 14:22:57 well : is nice for range 14:22:57 exactly 14:22:59 n!=*1:n 14:23:06 cise is a very hard language to parse. 14:23:15 pretty much impossible. 14:23:21 then you can use ! as a map factorial ofc: 14:23:28 going ---> 14:23:32 wait oklopol 14:23:35 this will make you lol: 14:23:39 +!%# 14:23:48 that produces the average of the factorials of the list given 14:23:53 with that ! def 14:23:53 :D 14:24:14 bye 14:26:15 that reads as 14:26:22 add factorial divide length 14:26:27 where add=sum 14:26:28 and you know that 14:26:30 so you can say 14:26:34 sum factorial divide length 14:26:48 +_!%# 14:26:55 sum negative factorial divide length 14:26:57 it's beautiful 14:27:15 -!- appletizer has quit. 14:28:24 in haskell, that's 14:28:29 (\x -> (sum $ map (0-) $ map fac x) `div` genericLength x) 14:28:42 the answer for the list 1 2 3 4 5 is -31 by the way 14:28:58 +_!%#. 14:29:00 i just love it 14:29:04 +_!%# +_!%# +_!%# +_!%# 14:29:12 i mean, i can read that now 14:29:14 oerjan: can you? 14:29:15 it's easy 14:29:17 if you know 14:29:18 + = add 14:29:21 _ = negate 14:29:23 ! = factorial 14:29:24 % = divide 14:29:26 # = length 14:29:33 then, you just read out the operations in order! 14:29:37 add negative factorial divide length 14:29:42 *negate 14:29:44 add negate factorial divide length 14:29:53 oerjan: ??? :D 14:30:08 I'M NOT LISTENING LA LA LA LA 14:30:35 oerjan: it's simple! come to the dark side!! we have tiny programs that you can just read aloud!! :D 14:30:40 and they're easy to write! 14:30:45 no parens! mostly! 14:30:48 and extremely ambiguous 14:30:58 oerjan: that's not all that ambiguous 14:31:15 i mean, if you read it out, there's only one "sane, working" meaning it could have 14:31:28 and the language will pretty much always take that one. 14:31:30 not ambiguous if you're AI-complete, then 14:31:34 +_!%# 14:31:42 oerjan: well, it has well-defined precedences ofc 14:31:46 it's just that they're set intuitively 14:32:07 i.e. just write your program as a flat list of (nested) english names on the argument 14:32:10 except you have a character set 14:32:15 where one char = one word for a restricted set 14:32:20 add negate factorial divide length 14:32:23 +_!%# 14:34:12 +_!%# it's sooo beautiful 14:34:18 i don't think i've ever written a nicer program 14:34:24 it's so simple and so YUM 14:35:23 i need second opinions. :| 14:35:29 lament! 14:35:33 -> 14:35:36 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 14:35:44 i scared him away :( 14:41:01 +_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%# 14:41:17 -!- ehird has set topic: +_!%# | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 14:46:05 +_!%#! 14:46:10 i'm not sure if that's the factorial of the length 14:46:15 or that whole expr, factorialled 14:46:18 but you know what?? 14:46:22 WHO CARES 14:46:22 :D 14:57:02 +_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%# 14:57:13 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff. 15:01:32 "%", doesn't that require two arguments? Or does it take the second argument from the supplied arguments? e.g. foo = +_!%#; foo "hello" 3 7 => add(negate(factorial(divide(length("hello"),3))),7) 15:02:05 MizardX: well 15:02:09 % does take two arguments 15:02:11 +_! 15:02:13 and # 15:02:22 + sums the list it gets, which is _! 15:02:31 _ maps _ on it, being an unary function, negating all the elements of 15:02:35 ! the factorialled list 15:02:40 # just gets the length of the same list 15:02:41 so: 15:02:47 +_!%# 1 2 3 15:02:48 is 15:03:21 x = [1,2,3]; fold(add, map(negate, map(factorial, x))) / length(x) 15:04:58 ok. Strange to apply the arguments to both operands... 15:05:20 MizardX: they read from the rest of the input string up to \n, basically 15:05:21 it's like j 15:06:22 basically, if you can show me a shorter way to do +_!%# in any language i'll sell my soul :P 15:07:37 negative mean of the factorials of the arguments 15:08:33 MizardX: no 15:08:38 the mean of the negation of the factorials of the arguments 15:08:41 the negation is _ 15:08:43 before the ! 15:08:49 to split it up into logical pieces: 15:08:54 + _! 15:08:55 % 15:08:56 # 15:10:26 mean should probably be a function 15:10:34 like...uh... 15:10:37 $ 15:10:44 then it becomes 15:10:45 $_! 15:11:02 $=+%# 15:11:04 then 15:11:06 $_! 1 2 3 15:11:08 -> -31 15:11:38 the mean of the negation is the negation of the mean 15:11:48 MizardX: shush you 15:11:52 this matters in the universe of awesome 15:12:05 it matters in a spiritual satisfaction way! 15:12:12 but yes, _$! would work just as well 15:12:17 but $_! is probably valid perl 15:16:14 hmm 15:16:22 I wonder what you should call $_! 15:16:23 i guess 15:16:29 meannegfacs 15:16:30 :P 15:16:38 to be honest, why even make that a function 15:16:43 it's quicker to just use it than give it a name 16:13:07 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rBurACl5wW0 16:15:17 FNORD 16:29:29 i can still write +_!%# without thinking 16:29:41 it's just so -obvious- if you know what the symbols mean. well, obviously 16:31:05 [[Why do you want to learn C when there's C++?!... C++ stands for a increasement of C... ]] 16:31:09 -!- zuff has set topic: Why do you want to learn C when there's C++?!... C++ stands for a increasement of C.... 16:40:44 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:41:44 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mcAq9bmCeR0 16:42:28 jayCampbell: through intense tracking of your youtube links, i have discovered you reside in UNITED KINGDOMIA// 16:42:35 THIS WILL BE YOUR LAST TRESSPASS-FALL 16:42:39 my death ray is on its way. 16:43:21 no, ever since i went to your link all my youtube links send me to UK 16:43:31 jayCampbell: that was the previous part of my trap 16:43:37 clicking on that link TRANSPORTED YOU TO THE UK 16:43:39 you just don't know it yet 16:43:41 shit 16:44:12 Ahahahahhaahahahah! 16:46:02 +_!%# 16:46:02 hee 16:46:06 i can still write it without thinking 16:46:57 jayCampbell: +_!%# 16:47:43 segfault 16:48:06 jayCampbell: tell me what that program does and i'll not send the death rays 16:49:33 jayCampbell: you have 50 hours 16:49:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:50:04 Sgeo: what does +_!%# do 16:50:07 answer and win prizes 16:50:30 I'm assuming you're talking about an esolang. What esolang? 16:50:45 it is not actually specced anywhere 16:50:45 <3 16:50:48 SO TELL ME 16:51:11 it does fold(add, map(negate, map(factorial, x))) / length(x) 16:51:13 I'M SAVED 16:51:32 do you want it implemented? 16:51:34 jayCampbell: copy and paster >:( 16:51:43 and no, dammit, it's mostly oklopol's 16:51:58 i've been looking for an excuse 16:52:23 jayCampbell: anyway now you get to answer another, harder one 16:52:26 for cheating 16:52:26 :D 16:56:47 spec me a language 16:56:51 no dammit 16:57:00 make your own stupid languages to implement >:( 16:57:01 :P 16:57:41 i'm torn between Three Stooges and Genesis, where the programmer first creates the heavens and the urfs 16:58:06 will probably do PokerScript 16:58:13 got any unique ideas? :P 16:58:24 apparently not 16:58:29 +_!%# is very uniq 16:58:40 not rilly 16:58:44 ya tis. 16:58:46 just ask oklopol. 17:00:24 it's a reversed rpn with a couple extra functions 17:00:33 umm 17:00:34 no 17:00:35 it's not 17:00:40 it is not reversed rpn 17:00:40 at al 17:00:41 l 17:00:50 it just isn't 17:01:12 in that, operations are invoked on a stack 17:01:18 nope 17:01:20 they are not 17:01:42 in that, it's a stackish thing and not supplied arguments 17:01:51 no 17:01:52 it is n't 17:01:57 you can say it is all you want but it isn't 17:02:00 ok then i stopped caring 17:02:18 heh. 17:44:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:52:51 :D 17:53:20 jayCampbell: of all people you should care about it, i mean you're "jay". 17:53:35 oklopol: totally 17:53:41 +_!%# 17:53:43 isn't that just beautiful? 17:53:44 seriously. 17:53:53 best program ever. 17:56:09 17:07… MizardX: negative mean of the factorials of the arguments === 17:08… zuff: the mean of the negation of the factorials of the arguments 17:56:17 yes 17:56:19 i know 17:56:19 :P 17:56:23 but really 17:56:36 you don't have to know -anything- beyond what each individual symbol represents to grasp the program 17:56:36 which it seems MizardX already said, i should really read further before commenting 17:56:40 no extra syntax, structure, or whatever 17:56:52 +_!%# where + = add, _ = negate, ! = factorial, % = divide, # = length 17:57:01 add negate factorial divide length 17:57:06 i mean, if you get that they're operating on a list, that's just trivial 17:58:28 oh you 17:58:36 now, could you explain why that works, i have no idea 17:58:40 :9 17:58:57 oklopol: well 17:59:15 mean of the negation of the factorials of the arguments 17:59:23 oklopol: you already know that +%# is mean 17:59:29 because it's add divide length, and add on lists is sum 17:59:35 actually wait... 17:59:36 so let's say mean is $ 17:59:40 then it's just $_! 17:59:44 _ is negate, it's mainly-unary 17:59:46 so it's mapped 17:59:51 ! is factorial, same, so it's mapped 18:00:06 so we map factorial the list, map negate it, then mean it 18:00:10 and mean is +%# 18:00:18 we're summing the negated-factorials, so we put it in the + clause 18:00:20 +_!%# 18:00:24 add negate factorial divide length 18:01:43 oklopol: geddit? 18:01:44 : for dyadic, . for monadic; :+ .- :! :% :# -> :+( .- :! %: :#) because a dyadic folds without a left arg, then :+( .- ( :! %: :# ) ) because [obviousity], then the standard rule for "fun fun fun" -> :+( .- ( :!( arg ) %: :#( arg ) ) ) 18:01:47 err 18:01:50 i didn't read, sorry :P 18:01:54 lolz 18:01:59 "wait..." <<< 18:02:02 yeah ! there is factorial 18:02:06 so monadic 18:02:13 hmm. 18:02:18 well actually .# 18:02:19 and # is length 18:02:19 ofc 18:02:19 so monadic 18:02:21 :+ ._ :! :% .# 18:02:24 yes 18:02:27 so yeah, it's: 18:02:34 (+(_(!)))%(#) 18:02:42 but anyway Xfun :fun Xfun 18:02:42 +_!%#. some pretty neat code. 18:03:00 oh, okay, monadic's have a short scope 18:03:36 yeah 18:03:55 anyway yeah sure that's workable. not that i'm entirely sure the general case is in any way remarkably short 18:04:00 oklopol: and a prefixed-dyadic has scope up to a binary-dyadic 18:04:04 thus why it stops at the % 18:04:18 so that's mean of negated factorials of arg 18:04:21 yah 18:04:24 let's write it in j 18:04:27 oklopol: of course, mean is a really common operation 18:04:30 i mean, i do 18:04:32 so that should be bound to something 18:04:33 like ~ 18:04:38 ~=+%# 18:04:40 then it's 18:04:41 ~_! 18:08:51 hmm what was ~ in j again... right, +~4 = 4+4 18:09:04 heh 18:09:08 well I was just thinking 18:09:12 mean is like ~ because 18:09:18 if a list is a wavy line of varying values 18:09:22 mean straightens it out 18:09:23 into one 18:10:49 yeah that's clear 18:11:09 oklopol: so what's +_!%# in j :P 18:11:38 seems i've misunderstood the @ adverb :| 18:11:54 i mean i haven't actually seen it explained anywhere, i've guessed most of the semantics from examples 18:12:29 i mean, usually @ looks like function composition, but not in the case when the left argument is +/. 18:13:16 probably has to do with the fact ! is a->a and +/ is [a]->a 18:22:37 so 18:22:50 help says 18:22:56 u@v y == u v y 18:23:09 j says 18:23:10 >>> mean ! 1 2 3 18:23:10 3 18:23:10 >>> (mean@!) 1 2 3 18:23:10 1 2 6 18:23:19 oklopol: you miss the minus 18:23:26 and the sum 18:23:28 ...that's hardly the point 18:23:31 oh, wait, you have the sum 18:23:33 but the minus is so the point 18:23:39 add the negative in there. 18:23:47 err... 18:23:53 look at what i said. 18:24:04 oklopol: i see no negation. 18:24:07 the result is -31 18:24:11 8| 18:24:13 +_!%# 1 2 3 18:24:15 -> -31 18:24:20 so, does someone know J here? 18:24:29 well I guess it's just _ 18:24:29 like 18:24:31 _ mean ! 18:24:33 there must be some reason for this weirdness 18:24:42 o rite 18:24:43 i see 18:24:48 :) 18:24:50 kk i thought that was your solution 18:24:54 err no 18:25:00 because if it was ~_! is still shorter in tokens and chars, ofc :P 18:25:04 quite the opposite, that's my problem 18:25:13 :P 18:25:27 the nice thing is the interchangability when you have equivalent ops 18:25:31 _~! and ~_! 18:25:33 but, i remember someone here knew J 18:25:34 you can just swap the chars around 18:25:39 oklopol: don't recall :{ 18:25:41 and i don't remember who that was :< 18:25:46 asd. 18:26:39 it was one of the more silent dudes, and i think their nick started with "j", but i might just be confused for obvious reasons 18:27:18 wait wait [1,2,3,4] is -31 18:27:18 dur 18:27:24 oklopol: don't recall 18:27:26 there's no #j. shocking 18:27:26 want me to grep, maybe? 18:27:34 well yeah sure that'd be nice 18:29:03 oklopol: what should i grep for :P 18:29:11 have no idea... 18:29:17 well just " j "? 18:29:22 does that give a million lines? 18:31:27 i'll try 18:31:27 but prolly 18:32:04 oklopol: first mention in 2003! :O 18:32:05 03.04.19:17:43:40 Taaus: what did you use j for? 18:32:29 cool 18:32:36 can't find any j person 18:32:36 :{ 18:32:36 it wasn't gilbert :) 18:32:39 I'll serach for J 18:32:43 uppercase 18:33:09 hmm. let's hope the j guy likes uppers then. 18:33:17 07.01.29:14:36:43 j sucks too... 18:33:18 i up pretty rarely 18:33:21 that's cakeprophet 18:33:24 how can you like him 18:33:28 :=) 18:33:39 well he's always like that 18:34:52 heh, checked whether quakenet has #j, mostly for luls, and it did! 18:34:58 unfortunately it's a gaming channel 18:35:02 didn't stop me from asking though. 18:35:24 08.03.21:12:07:37 i love j already 18:35:24 08.03.21:14:44:56 rofl, switching back to linux is starting to feel like a good idea, my j interp crashed, took me like 5 minutes to get my computer running again :D 18:35:27 dejavu 18:35:30 after explaining the problem, like 15 lines, 20:33… @morfff: rofl what 18:35:42 :-) 18:35:42 oklopol: hahaha, pastebin a log 18:36:23 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p562653264.txt not that interesting 18:36:41 oklopol: 18:36:41 07.03.23:09:36:24 J sucked ass ^^^^^^ 18:36:56 when's that? :d 18:36:58 err 18:36:58 oklopol: did nobody else talk since? :{ 18:36:59 and 18:37:00 07 18:37:00 err 18:37:02 lo 18:37:04 l 18:37:07 zuff: no :< 18:37:44 i didn't get to the good parts of j last time i tried 18:37:54 oklopol: faxathisia maybe? :\ 18:37:59 he seemed to know j 18:38:02 hmm 18:38:05 very possible. 18:38:12 he never comes here 18:38:48 08.03.21:12:55:33 * oklopol makes that his first J project! 18:38:48 08.03.21:13:44:03 http://jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/dccapdot.htm okay J owns. 18:39:08 well it does! 18:41:28 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p345244344.txt <<< continuation, dunno if that's as funny to you as it is to me, i'm very tired and headachy 18:41:49 lollllll 18:41:52 this is epic 18:41:59 :D 18:42:12 i just wish they'd actually try to help 18:42:29 i mean, i would, in that situation 18:42:34 no matter what the question is 18:43:02 oklopol: any more chatxs? 18:43:30 well yeah sure 18:43:39 oklopol: paste 18:43:49 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p235534144.txt 18:43:51 oklopol: its quakenet right 18:44:00 ? 18:44:02 yes, naturally 18:44:13 well i guess it could be some other non-freenode 18:44:34 i'm joining 18:44:37 and going to ask a j question 18:44:37 :DDD 18:44:41 heh 18:45:22 lollllll 18:45:32 oklopol: antyhing i missed since that paste 18:45:33 before i joined 18:45:34 ? 18:45:59 wait... 18:46:01 oklopol: paste 18:46:07 paste what happened between your last one and my join 18:46:07 :D 18:46:18 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p551156355.txt 18:46:31 lol 18:46:34 let's keep acting oblivious 18:46:46 um 18:46:46 18:45 Error(404): #J Cannot send to channel 18:46:49 do i need to identify? 18:46:52 or sth 18:46:57 err. 18:47:02 well yeah maybe they have that mode on 18:47:11 yup 18:47:28 identifying is instantaneous, but tedious. 18:47:33 * zuff dossi 18:47:33 t 18:47:35 i mean, you have to do email stuff 18:47:38 yeah 18:47:39 :| 18:49:26 oklopol: did that work? 18:49:44 yes 18:49:46 oklopol: yay 18:49:55 i suggest we just keep piling j qs in there 18:50:00 until the tf people go away 18:50:02 it's a shame I know nothing about J really 18:50:08 until they kickban us is more like it 18:50:12 not that they'd know the difference 18:50:26 i'm surprised they're that friendly, quakenetters tend to be all about the business ( == gaming ) 18:50:39 also, rage at Error(404)! It should be 403! 18:50:43 or 401 18:50:48 oklopol: nah, we just have to make it tangentially related to tf 18:50:49 every now and then 18:50:54 like, we'll say we're scripting it 18:50:55 or sth 18:51:25 :) 18:52:20 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:52:45 "Until death do us apart" - #j website 18:55:57 http://www.jagarna.org/index.php?site=squads&action=show&squadID=2 18:56:00 here's who we're dealing with 18:57:34 18:57 zuff: yeah, mostly a lot of gamers 18:57:35 see wut i did thar 19:00:35 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 19:01:39 HUR HUR HUR 19:01:51 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:01:54 i bet they have us all on ignore now 19:02:27 oklopol: don't give it away 19:02:28 >:( 19:03:19 -!- sebbu2 has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:03:20 -!- pikhq has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:03:21 -!- rodgort has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:04:00 hahaha 19:04:04 19:03 lezek has changed mode: +m 19:04:04 19:03 lezek: I suggest you guys go to #j.ai and talk :d 19:04:04 fuckers 19:04:07 privmsg time 19:04:07 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:04:09 19:04 zuff: hey, what was that for? 19:04:18 I bet it's the only action their channel's seen in weeks, too :( 19:04:30 19:04 lezek: Join j.ai 19:04:30 19:04 lezek: and talk 19:04:32 19:04 zuff: nobody there 19:04:32 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:04:32 -!- rodgort has joined. 19:04:45 19:04 lezek: J is not a channel for AI or Mathematic talk :) 19:04:45 19:04 zuff: it was neither 19:04:49 AI OR MATHEMATIC 19:05:09 :D 19:05:13 what a meganoober :P 19:05:19 19:04 lezek: J is a channel for TF2 talk 19:05:19 19:05 zuff: right, j is a part of tf2 <-- 19:05:22 bullshit mode activate 19:06:01 hmm. 19:06:12 :D 19:06:14 i will get that -m 19:06:16 if it's the last thing i do 19:06:30 would you mind giving me the log? i'll give a few more ppl a slight lol. 19:06:43 yeah yeah once it's over 19:06:50 of course it's split in tons pieces. 19:07:23 mirc is such a piece of caviar, i can't copy more than one screenful at once from the logs 19:07:34 because they only scroll when you push the arrows 19:07:45 lol 19:07:49 even in the fucking logviewer, in which you can't do anything *but* read the logs 19:07:50 :DD 19:07:52 nnscript makes readable log files by default, I think. 19:08:01 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 19:08:02 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 19:08:19 yeah sure. but i would have to locate them, and if you knew me, you'd realize what a massive prob that is. 19:09:15 -!- sebbu2 has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:09:16 -!- rodgort has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:09:18 oklopol: done 19:09:19 paste time 19:09:28 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p225562425.txt 19:10:00 he replied "LOL". insensitive clod. 19:11:05 :) 19:11:08 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:11:08 -!- rodgort has joined. 19:14:32 channels are much more elitist in qnet 19:14:41 it's an entirely different world 19:14:57 i loved the "and we like it that way" 19:15:09 hurf durf clogging the channel namespace with something that's never talked in is elite hurf durf 19:15:18 -!- rodgort has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:15:19 look at me with my huge epenis and op status 19:15:22 -!- rodgort has joined. 19:15:49 is jaxer as cool as it looks? 19:16:01 not that cool. 19:16:05 it's alright. 19:16:14 what's jaxer 19:16:27 oklopol: boring web stuff. :P 19:16:57 also all this j scrollback is confusing 19:16:59 ah, first link's *sublink* would've done it 19:17:08 i didn't feel like reading that far 19:17:10 <- j 19:17:20 jayCampbell: your fault for hogging the lang's name 19:17:25 yes, languages come before people 19:17:46 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 19:18:07 now, while #j did explain why the problem occurred, it didn't actually get solved 19:18:19 oklopol: well, just don't use @? 19:18:19 :P 19:18:22 also 19:18:25 idea for my j-like language: 19:18:28 no parens 19:18:29 at all 19:18:31 zuff: and use what instead? 19:18:33 ( and ) are some random ops 19:18:37 if you need parens, you suck 19:18:38 restructure 19:18:57 if +_!%# doesn't need parens, nothing does 19:20:39 oklopol: ideally, ( and ) are actually used together 19:20:40 but not always 19:20:49 i.e. most of the time, it looks like a language construct 19:20:53 but then you get ROUGE PARENS 19:26:20 oklopol: hmm i liked how you annotated monadic/dyadic with . and : 19:26:24 that should be how you force map/fold XD 19:27:03 that was the debug output syntax of arities in oklotalk-- 19:27:22 :D 19:40:20 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:53:02 oklopol: 19:53:03 x+y 19:53:06 is E 19:53:50 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 19:54:29 -!- Ilari has joined. 19:56:28 -!- Corun has joined. 20:16:25 oklopol: did the j peeps say anything more 20:18:08 Corun: be broadband are in your area? jealouss :{ 20:23:23 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:37:59 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 20:40:16 zuff: x+y = E? 20:40:22 oklopol: totally 20:40:33 i see. 20:42:54 zuff, I'm with O2 20:43:04 (n=Corun@94-193-40-216.zone7.bethere.co.uk) 20:43:06 Yeah 20:43:08 o2 bought out be 20:43:08 I dunno 20:43:10 I'm with O2. 20:43:11 so i guess a branding thing 20:43:19 Ah, didn't know that. 20:43:43 But, I have an iPhone on O2. It's much cheaper for O2 customers 20:43:53 Yeah, ditto. 20:43:56 (unlimited download 8 meg for £7.50 a month iirc) 20:43:59 Ah, cool. 20:44:10 Except, not broadband with them. 20:44:18 Ah 20:44:19 Well, I guess "iphone on o2" then becomes obvious. 20:44:25 Unless I unlocked it. 20:44:33 :-) 20:59:28 omg oklopol 20:59:32 infinite genetic algorithms 20:59:32 that is 20:59:37 it doesn't just evolve its own fitness function 20:59:44 it evolves every part of its own evolving to an infinite level 21:20:07 -!- olsner has joined. 21:23:04 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:30:44 So self-modifying AI that uses evolution. 21:30:53 YES. 21:37:14 zuff: yes, life. 21:37:19 <.< 21:37:22 that was what i meant 21:40:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:53:22 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 22:13:40 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:48:01 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:50:49 -!- oklopol has joined. 23:06:06 oklopol: 23:06:13 +_!%# 23:06:14 :DDDDDDDD 23:07:11 :DDDD 23:07:13 &/-#+!|::\ 23:07:24 oerjan: that is probably valid code but i don't know what it would do. 23:07:32 oklopol: did you manage to concisify +_!%# in j? 23:07:37 hmm, what would it be in cise? 23:07:57 i'm not sure cise can beat +_!%# for "mean of the negation of the factorials of the arguments" 23:08:00 well 23:08:06 if it has its own mean function, and you use that 23:08:09 then you have to bet ~_! 23:08:11 *beat 23:08:14 as ~ is the mean 23:08:22 take your pick :P 23:08:51 ooooooooooooooooooooooo 23:08:57 every language needs a mean function 23:08:58 zuff: no i didn't look into it really 23:09:06 and a kind one 23:09:08 oklopol: cise i mean 23:09:08 cise 23:09:14 ohh. 23:09:33 well i haven't completely decided on all ascii chars' meanings. 23:09:40 oklopol: well that's not that important 23:09:43 just assign random ones 23:13:11 oklopol: 23:14:06 . 23:21:03 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 23:23:32 -!- olsner has joined. 23:33:14 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7i6o9/im_looking_for_a_backup_format_for_my_database_of/ 23:33:16 Oh lawd 23:46:58 ehird! 23:47:46 hi lament 2008-12-10: 00:15:40 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 01:26:14 -!- moozilla has joined. 01:34:03 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 01:42:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 01:51:16 -!- cherez has joined. 01:51:48 -!- cherez has left (?). 02:20:50 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:51:09 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 03:23:01 -!- lifthras1ir has joined. 03:23:02 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:54:29 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 04:59:13 -!- ab5tract has joined. 05:31:06 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:37:27 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:49:23 -!- ab5tract has quit. 07:50:03 -!- olsner has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:49:56 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:17:10 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 10:30:12 -!- jix has joined. 10:30:12 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit). 11:09:06 -!- ineiros_ has joined. 11:10:33 -!- ineiros has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 12:08:06 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 12:08:15 -!- puzzlet has joined. 13:00:55 -!- Mony has joined. 13:01:12 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird. 13:01:25 plop 13:15:51 poof 13:24:05 warrigal you are a pnp partner :| 13:29:29 * Warrigal opens up Gmail in another tab so he can read Agora and respond to Singularitaritaritarians at the same time 13:37:03 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff. 14:10:53 http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html lulz 14:26:51 I love reading about how Microsoft rules the world using Windows and most people cannot comprehend their slavery. 14:27:44 I also love reading about how artificial intelligence is probably going to destroy the world unless we donate to the Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence. 14:28:40 One of those was sarcasm, the other was just an exaggeration. To each his own, I guess. 14:30:43 Warrigal: I was lolling at the letter, not any other part. 14:30:54 But I haven't quite seen any donation requests from the si. :P 14:32:16 http://alteredqualia.com/visualization/evolve/ 14:32:25 mona lisa evolution... IN REALTIME 14:32:26 woop 14:39:49 -!- jix has joined. 14:46:33 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:47:18 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:47:48 hmm oklopol 14:47:54 problem with the lang :{ 14:48:21 ! as *1: doesn't work, as the prefixed dyadic * only lasts to the infixed dyadic : 14:48:24 so it's (*1): 14:48:26 :\ 14:52:44 I just get the exception "Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read property 'shape' of undefined" on http://alteredqualia.com/visualization/evolve/ in Google Chrome :( 14:54:29 Pls 2 be reading "requirements" section 14:55:40 Is that using asexual reproduction? 14:56:19 That really doesn't come across as very evolvey. 14:57:34 Evolution is evolution, sexual or not. 14:57:37 It's just based on a previous article I linked. 14:58:44 Well, it's just making random changes and discarding the ones that aren't beneficial. 14:59:08 As opposed to evolution, which just makes random changes and tends to discard the ones that aren't beneficial. 15:00:27 It's a genetic programming thingamabob, fr'sr. 15:00:30 Just not very advanced. 15:00:32 Okay. 15:01:20 i really don't see why you'd use the terms "evolution" and "genetic" for all informed search strategies, but guess i'll just have to suffer 15:01:35 I think it should apply a band-pass filter to the image so that the fitness function pays as much attention to the details, like eyes, as it does to the curvature of her forehead. 15:01:49 I think evolution ought to at least involve a population. 15:02:10 oklopol: it makes a bunch of mutations and picks the best one, then mutates that, etc 15:02:36 zuff: yes, hill climbing 15:02:43 it's ga. 15:02:46 err, gp 15:03:01 a very space-efficient form of informed search, nothing to do with what you usually call evolution in algorithmics 15:03:05 Evolution works best when you have a relatively large population, and sex. 15:03:21 Warrigal: Insert joke about how the first part could be anything. 15:04:58 About how "relatively large" could be one? 15:05:34 zuff: why would you use the term genetic programming for that? i mean wouldn't it be nice if there was a name for searches based on populations, mutations and sexual reproduction... kinda like evolution 15:05:38 wait 15:05:41 that makes no sense ;) 15:05:43 i meant 15:05:48 why would you use the term "evolution" 15:05:49 oklopol: because it technically is 15:05:57 i mean, it might not make sense, but its part of gp 15:06:17 can't see how. 15:06:19 so i'll use the accepted terms. 15:06:25 oklopol: because it's a field and it has subfields? 15:06:27 crazy i know 15:06:32 It just depends on how you define "evolution", I suppose. 15:06:49 yes, i don't see how that definition makes sense. that's "search" 15:07:01 i mean evolution is not search 15:07:17 it's exactly what Warrigal said, it's "guided" by a function, not culled by it 15:08:09 anyway i'm not really interested in this 15:08:33 zuff is so easy to get into pointless arguments with, we should try disagreeing about something that matters sometime 15:09:48 Like Agora. 15:10:50 some day. 15:12:35 cool, I evolve strings in the generation of their length 15:12:35 XD 15:12:52 hmm, it should do like, more than one change 15:12:54 so it isn't boring 15:13:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:23:21 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection timed out). 15:24:08 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 15:25:55 -!- AnMaster has joined. 15:29:32 -!- jix has joined. 15:59:47 I want to make my own version of that Mona Lisa evolution thing that uses a larger population and sex. 16:00:07 Mona Lisa sex? You creep. 16:00:26 I love this channel. 16:00:43 I want to make my own ... Mona List ... that uses ... sex. 16:00:54 *Lisa 16:01:00 X-D 16:01:13 I want to make my own ... Monad List ... that uses ... sex. 16:01:20 I want to make ... Mona Lisa ... use ... sex. 16:01:28 I want ... sex. 16:01:39 I want ... Mona Lisa ... sex. 16:01:47 Because brevity is ... wit. 16:02:08 I want to make ... evolution ... that uses ... sex. 16:02:21 ... 16:07:06 i want to make my own version of sex 16:07:23 like, you know, revolutionize the concept completely 16:07:53 what's with all the back-and-fro? i bet with some training you could leave out movement altogether 16:08:00 Two people bash their heads together until their thoughts match, and then the woman has a brainchild? 16:08:17 well of course reproduction must still happen 16:09:21 She figures out how to build a robot from spare parts, and that's the child. 16:09:59 Then she passes on her genes by speaking her mind completely. 16:10:16 Because they're all in her brain. 17:02:12 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 17:20:03 -!- jix has joined. 17:25:44 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 17:32:58 -!- Sgeo[College] has joined. 17:44:36 So, I guess I want to learn JavaScript really quickly. 17:45:04 Why? 17:46:37 Because I want to write something in JavaScript. 17:47:00 -!- Sgeo[College] has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 17:48:50 JavaScript itself is simple enough. I find the DOM a bit ugly, though. 17:49:13 Yeah, the language is fine, the browser's libraries cause insanity unless wrapped nicely. 18:18:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:19:20 +ul (wr)S(:(ap)S^):^ 18:19:21 wrapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapap ...too much output! 18:20:11 +ul ((.)S:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^):^ 18:20:16 ................................................................................................................................ ...too much output! 18:22:16 I think I want to write a Thue compiler. 18:22:52 Or maybe I want to strap a Thue interpreter onto a piece of artificial intelligence. 18:23:37 that might make the AI a bit annoyed - like that mouse they implanted an ear on 18:24:50 A thue compiler would have to either be a packaged interpreter, or contain a compiler itself. 18:25:13 err... not thue. 18:25:28 Compilers have to contain compilers? 18:25:42 got confused having just written ul 18:26:32 ^ is the eval commnad, so ^ need to evaluate or compile the content of the top of stack. 18:29:24 -!- Azstal has joined. 18:32:03 -!- Corun has joined. 18:32:53 I'd like a nice way to compile from any self-modifying language into any self-modifying language. 18:33:24 -!- Ilari_ has joined. 18:34:18 good luck with that. 18:43:48 So, this is Underload? 18:43:48 -!- Warrigal has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:45:22 -!- Ilari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:45:24 -!- Warrigal has joined. 18:45:45 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:45:52 +ul (Hello)S 18:45:53 Hello 18:46:14 Hi, thutubot. 18:46:25 -!- Ilari_ has changed nick to Ilari. 18:46:27 Now, to represent binary. 18:47:17 The only flow control is evaluation, so binary will have to be evaluated. 18:47:28 binary demands representation! 18:48:19 represent binary in what? 18:48:42 I propose that x0 be represented as (x), x1 be represented as !(x), and plain old 0 be represented as, oh, *. 18:49:06 what language? 18:49:25 Underload. 18:49:56 * oerjan offers his list of :'s and a's vapor-idea free of charge 18:50:40 Warrigal: what about plain old 1? 18:52:56 !(*) 18:53:33 Warrigal: No, that's 10. 18:53:37 That's 01. 18:53:38 0 = * 18:53:39 Which is 1. 18:53:47 oh 18:54:01 now to do 1101: 18:54:23 Haven't seen any Underload number representations yet that would have had very pleasant arithmetics. 18:54:30 1((1(1(*)))) 18:55:08 !((!(!(*)))) 18:55:09 I think 18:55:11 yeah 18:55:36 Where 1 means !. 18:56:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 18:56:50 Now, show us addition. 18:57:01 Hmm. 18:57:19 Nah. :-P 18:58:35 fizzie: the standard number representation is very pleasant. 18:59:16 oklopol: I'm not sure I agree. I guess it's "pleasant" in the Underload scale of pleasantness. 18:59:34 Ooh, I think I have a -perfect- number representation. 18:59:34 Second. 19:00:08 What's your perfect number representation? 19:00:31 fizzie: well +/-/* don't really require much thought with it, and i haven't really even used the language. 19:01:10 Warrigal: i'm thinkin 19:01:10 g 19:01:12 (:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::) is not a good way of representing 28, I'd say. 19:01:29 Warrigal: that is not standard underload representation 19:01:38 Oh. 19:02:00 oklopol: It didn't seem that trivial to me back when I was looking at people talking about it, but I guess I shouldn't comment on Underloady things. I think I managed to decrement a number, though. 19:03:45 Hmm, my representation is almost the standard one. 19:03:48 Except instead of a -> aa 19:03:51 it's a -> (a)(a) 19:03:55 fizzie: well i found it pretty trivial after i understood how to operate the stack. 19:04:14 the actual algorithm was trivial 19:13:17 -!- olsner has joined. 19:18:53 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:27:38 Oh, darn, it's the Mona Lisa again. 19:28:15 * Warrigal ponders his evolvey thing 19:30:37 You have a number of organisms, each one is assigned an unfitness, the unfitness of the most fit one is subtracted from every one, an organism is removed with probability equal to its adjusted unfitness, one organism is randomly chosen as the father, and another as the mother, and their genomes are combined to produce a new organism, and if this new organism is less fit than all other organisms, it's immediately killed, a new mother is selected, and a new c 19:30:44 That was fun. 19:31:01 and a new c 19:31:08 tely killed, a new mother is selected, and a new c 19:31:09 19:30 Warrigal: That was fun. 19:34:39 fizzie: i thought you did subtraction. not that there's much difference of course 19:34:52 I'm not sure. I may have done. 19:35:00 hmm 19:35:03 we should check the logs 19:35:08 that's pretty important. 19:35:57 It's immediately killed, a new mother is selected, and a new child is created. 19:36:39 Organisms are haploid, and each gene describes the position of a vertex, the color of a shape, or the transparency of a shape. 19:36:49 Genes cannot mix with each other. 20:05:35 -!- edwardk has joined. 20:07:40 -!- huh_aha_hmm has joined. 20:08:29 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 20:08:49 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:23:13 -!- Mony has quit ("Hey Hoy let go !"). 20:43:32 -!- huh_aha_hmm has quit ("Verlassend"). 20:47:08 oklopol: I thought of a good use for GA. 20:47:14 mvldo, that "pretends to be human" bot. 20:47:25 It could simply evolve behaviour that makes people talk to it for longer. 21:04:46 "Agents have been dispached to your house. If you stop talking to me, you will never see your family again!" 21:06:09 Then it proceeds to enslave the whole of humanity. Noone is permitted to leave the computer. 21:07:37 :D 21:08:00 MizardX: how does it enslave the agents? 21:08:13 and how do the agents talk to it while watching? 21:08:38 You haven't seen "Terminator"? 21:09:00 Listen, this is #esoteric. :P 21:09:17 We must approach this from a scientific perspectiv. 21:09:22 I want analysis...es. 21:09:54 We'll see if that accually happens. 21:10:08 Good point. 21:13:45 +ul !(x)S 21:13:47 ...! out of stack! 21:13:58 x is not an actual underload command. 21:15:18 I know. Just wanted to see the behavior when it ran out of stack. 21:15:34 Fungot is less verbose in that case. 21:15:37 ^ul ! 21:15:37 ...out of stack! 21:15:48 It's just "out of stack", not "x out of stack". 21:24:46 ^style 21:24:46 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 21:39:29 -!- olsner_ has joined. 21:39:29 -!- olsner has quit. 21:54:30 oklopol: YOU DON'T EXIST. 22:03:27 What's this about oklopol not existing? 22:04:06 he doesn't 22:04:25 Oh. 22:06:44 What dumbass made the /topic? 22:07:03 (Or rather, the text therein) 22:07:10 optbot is gone. 22:07:25 GregorR: i forget where it comes from 22:07:27 i think some forum 22:07:33 It must be replaced with a Normish bot. 22:07:35 i put it there for the lulz 22:07:37 Heh 22:07:54 I personally use ++C++ 22:08:10 I use B 22:08:11 CPL 22:08:18 Hardcore. 22:08:24 I want a RepRap. 22:09:09 1. "Why do you want to learn C when there's C++?!... C++ stands for a increasement of C..." zuff (n=ehird@eso-std.org) [09.12.2008 18:31:09] 22:09:25 Oh right, you did respond 22:09:27 Missed that 22:09:58 -!- Normish has joined. 22:10:02 Yay! 22:10:13 Unfortunately, it doesn't do anything. 22:10:22 It'll ping out after five minutes. 22:10:40 So ... it's Telnet? :P 22:10:45 Alas, "C++" does nothing more than increment C and return the initial value of C. 22:10:51 C++ < C. ;) 22:10:56 GregorR: i don't like ++c++, since it isn't specced 22:11:01 pikhq: lol 22:11:08 oklopol: lol 22:11:08 (cat - /home/ihope/hang | nc irc.freenode.net 6667) < Followed by some IRC commands. 22:11:28 Hah 22:12:04 /home/ihope/hang is a FIFO with nothing on the other end, because I didn't find a device file that blocks forever when you read from it. 22:13:04 -!- edwardk has left (?). 22:13:33 /dev/null ? 22:13:48 No, that does EOF. 22:13:51 Never mind. 22:14:40 /dev/zero and /dev/full do a good job of looking like they're blocking forever when you cat them. 22:15:15 The thing is, you don't want to use all of your bandwidth to send zeros to freenode. 22:15:52 /dev/full wouldn't send anything. 22:16:17 It sure looks like millions and millions of zeros when I pipe it through base64. 22:16:52 hm, ok. 22:17:45 -!- Normish has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:18:07 I think Normish should have an official IRC bot. 22:18:11 I don't know what it would do. :-P 22:19:17 Hmm, I wonder where bsmnt_bot is. 22:19:48 bsmntbombdood, do you still have a copy of bsmnt_bot? 22:19:53 ish 22:20:17 Is it the kind of copy that can be downloaded and run? 22:20:55 little bit more difficult 22:20:58 because it's chroot 22:20:59 ed 22:21:21 chroot is probably fine. 22:23:34 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:26:48 Where is it, then? 22:30:08 uuuh 22:30:41 i have a file named bsmnt_bot.tgz 22:30:44 maybe that's it 22:31:20 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:34:35 I take it you're untgzing it. 22:35:14 uhh so right now i have no webserver to host it 22:35:27 bsmntbombdood: filebin.ca 22:35:36 Or DCC. 22:36:16 Warrigal: no idea how old of a version this is 22:37:35 * Warrigal taps his foot according to the Thue-Morse sequence 22:38:11 (Tap ... ... tap ... tap tap ... ... tap tap ... tap ... ... tap ... tap tap ... tap ... ... tap tap ... ... tap ... tap tap ...) 22:41:21 +ul ((tap )(... )):^!S(~:^:S*a~^*a*~:^):^ 22:41:22 tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... ...too much output! 22:41:27 darn 22:41:50 ah 22:41:57 +ul ((tap )(... )):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^ 22:41:58 tap ... ... tap ... tap tap ... ... tap tap ... tap ... ... tap ... tap tap ... tap ... ... tap tap ... ... tap ... tap tap ... ... tap tap ... tap ... ... tap tap ... ... tap ... tap tap ... tap ... ... tap ... tap tap ... ... tap tap ... tap ... ... tap ...too much output! 22:42:19 http://filebin.ca/qhzppv/bsmnt_bot.tgz 22:42:23 Sure looks like Thue-Morse to me. 22:42:23 oerjan: win 22:42:37 * Warrigal wgets it 22:42:44 Warrigal: untar at your own risk, for all i know that's full of hardcore gay pornography 22:43:09 It seems to have Python 2.4 in it. 22:43:22 it does 22:43:30 I don't think PuTTY is capable of displaying hardcore gay pornography. 22:43:37 iirc it has the entire chroot enviroment you need in it 22:44:14 zuff: good service, there 22:44:36 agreed, filebin is really useful 22:45:10 15 gb is kinda lame though 22:45:41 bsmntbombdood: 15 gb? 22:45:44 itym 50 mb 22:45:53 no 22:45:54 640 KB should be enough for anybody. 22:45:55 oh you men 22:46:00 bsmntbombdood: that's just how much has been used in total 22:46:02 "15 gb of rotating storage space" 22:46:08 no 22:46:12 the current amonut of files is 15 gb 22:46:17 that doesn't mean it's at the maximum 22:46:31 Wow, it contains an absolute symbolic link. 22:46:45 lrwxrwxrwx 1 ihope ihope 42 Dec 10 17:44 sh -> /home/bsmntbombdood/python_chroot/bin/bash 22:46:49 Broken, too. 22:47:07 what? 22:48:10 Why is there that symbolic link inside a chroot jail? 22:48:34 oh lol 22:48:37 bsmnt_bot is user 1343... 22:48:58 Is it the kind of copy that can be downloaded and run? 22:48:58 little bit more difficult 22:49:12 adduser --uid 1343 --disabled-password bsmnt_bot 22:49:57 I hope _ is a valid character in usernames. 22:50:11 hrm, i wonder if that symlink would have allowed you to break out of the chroot 22:50:20 damnit, should have tried 22:50:37 symlinks don't let you break out of chroots. 22:51:15 Hard links do. 23:04:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 23:08:33 Warrigal: get it running yet? 23:11:08 I need two more votes before I can even write the next proposal, really. 23:11:23 huh? 23:11:42 bsmntbombdood: warrigal. 23:11:44 normish. 23:11:45 nomic. 23:11:47 computer. 23:11:59 wtfrutalkingabout 23:12:07 warrigal is trying to run bsmnt_bot 23:12:09 on normish 23:12:10 which is a linux box 23:12:13 that is a nomic 23:12:47 no me understando 23:12:57 bsmntbombdood: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomic 23:13:07 uh huh 23:13:21 "uh huh" - sorry for explaining. 23:13:49 how can an operating system be nomic? 23:14:04 bsmntbombdood: you can write executable proposals, and if they pass, they're run as root 23:14:12 executable = shebang + +x 23:14:37 The shebang isn't necessary, really. 23:14:41 well, yes 23:14:45 uuuh 23:14:52 bsmntbombdood: what's confusing now. 23:15:05 and who votes? 23:15:11 the players? 23:15:15 i.e. everyone with an account 23:15:18 it's just a few programs 23:15:32 you make proposals by writing to ~/proposals/, you can do FOR, AGAINST as command-line programs 23:15:39 and anyone can "activate name" if it has enough votes. 23:16:13 that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard 23:16:30 bsmntbombdood: and why is this? 23:16:41 Codenomics have existed for a while, but do elaborate. 23:17:10 * zuff waits. 23:17:39 bsmntbombdood: Those are some compelling arguments. 23:17:48 * oerjan watches zuff's beard grow across the floor 23:18:01 bsmntbombdood: Wow! I never thought of it like that. It really does suck. 23:18:43 -!- oerjan has set topic: No telepathy please. 23:19:04 stop reading my mind YOU SICK PERVERT! 23:19:14 oh hi lament 23:19:22 ah. he speak. 23:19:23 speaks 23:20:00 welp, your arguments sure have enlightened me. 23:20:04 if for nothing other than their sheer number. 23:20:21 ok, you can stop now, I'm getting an argument overload 23:20:32 yes, yes, I get it, ok, ok 23:20:43 why does everyone have a different nick today? 23:21:00 I've had a different nick since... hmm, not Christmas. 23:21:00 Warrigal has been Warrigal for a long time. 23:21:07 Warrigal: A month. 23:21:07 Max. 23:21:11 Actually, I was warrie here before I was Warrigal. 23:21:20 bsmntbombdood: so, any arguments yet? 23:21:32 what's the point? 23:21:41 It's a game. 23:21:46 What is the point of any game? 23:22:06 bsmntbombdood: what's the point of esolangs/ 23:22:08 It's like Neopets, only the Neopets-like features don't exist yet. 23:22:14 Warrigal: That is very Zen. 23:22:24 And also incomprehensible, but that's never stopped you :D 23:24:38 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 23:25:50 I'm not incomprehensible to everybody, I think. Might be, though. 23:27:09 ab gub fnar gabbit gnep znebby, Warrigal 23:28:17 ybbenz peng tabbig ranf bug ba! 23:28:48 olsner_: fneddoc gzippy 23:29:03 Quémelo si quiera, a tajoques, ¿no? 23:29:26 Warrigal: ikkje umogleg 23:29:30 besudla nutan!? 23:29:48 ¡Es jumpo el sharko! 23:30:54 darn google translate is useless 23:31:15 SPEAK ENGLISH IN AMERICA 23:31:39 eg er ikkje i amerika 23:31:44 Google Translate no tiene use cuando su español no hace centados. 23:31:49 s/use/uso/ 23:33:02 no hace centados? 23:33:21 oerjan: i'm going to assume that says "i'm not in america" in heathen speak 23:33:48 bsmntbombdood: nynorsk er ikkje noko heidningesprÃ¥k 23:33:59 joho, är det visst det 23:34:08 hÃ¥ller med 23:34:12 ikkje fan 23:34:26 lusekoftor och kjempetorskar :P 23:34:39 No hace centavos, sorry. 23:35:45 now google translate manages to translate into english, but it is _still_ incomprehensible 23:36:00 "Google Translate has no use when their Spanish does not make cents" 23:36:04 samleie du og ditt sprÃ¥k 23:36:31 bsmntbombdood: samleie is a noun, not a verb. 23:36:54 oh sorry 23:37:02 i'll let google know 23:37:07 also, the direct translation is not idiomatic norwegian swearing 23:37:45 I guess Google Translate actually did help there. 23:37:55 (also, samleie is rather neutral) 23:38:46 google's corpus is from the united nations 23:38:51 so probably not much swearing 23:39:17 and "du" is the subject form 23:40:18 norwegians would usually use something religiously based, like "Faen ta deg og sprÃ¥ket ditt" 23:40:33 ("The devil take you ...") 23:40:42 lol, religiousfags 23:58:42 +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^(~aS:^):^ 23:58:43 (((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)(())(())(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)(())(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)(())(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)() ...a out of stack! 23:59:23 hmm 23:59:31 oerjan: 23:59:35 underload look-and-say 23:59:36 DO IT :D 23:59:57 ouch 2008-12-11: 00:00:00 I WANT A REPRAP 00:00:08 I WANT A PRAM 00:00:10 GregorR: er? 00:00:10 ZAP YOUR PRAM 00:00:21 oerjan: http://www.reprap.org 00:00:44 Rep rap... 00:00:46 ...E 00:00:57 O H S N A P 00:01:26 also 00:01:27 GregorR: 00:01:32 INFINITE PRINTER-PRINTERS 00:01:34 FUCKING AWESOME 00:01:39 I WANT ONE 00:01:42 RepRap achieved self-replication at 14:00 hours UTC on 29 May 2008 at Bath University in the UK. The machine that did it - RepRap Version 1.0 "Darwin" - can be built now - see the Make your own RepRap link there or on the left, and for ways to get the bits and pieces you need, see the Obtaining Parts link. 00:01:47 it sounds like it took a whil 00:01:47 e 00:01:48 :( 00:01:54 oh 00:01:54 no 00:01:55 a few minutes 00:01:57 AWESOME 00:02:08 It took them many years to achieve self-replication. 00:02:10 To increase that 60%, the next version of RepRap will be able to make its own electric circuitry - a technology we have already proved experimentally - though not its electronic chips. After that we'll look to doing transistors with it, and so on... 00:02:12 HAHAHAHHAHAHAH YES 00:02:14 <3333 00:02:30 you realize what this eventually leads to. 00:02:31 I was watching the RepRap project until ... oh, about a month before it became successful X_X 00:02:39 lament: Grey goo? 00:02:46 grey goo 00:03:20 :) 00:03:27 while (1) { replicate() } 00:03:36 hmm well 00:03:52 that reprap printer takes a "few minutes" to print itself 00:03:52 it says 00:03:52 so 00:03:53 just speed that up a lot 00:03:55 and make it smaller 00:04:01 LIGHT_GRAY GOOOOOOO 00:04:15 RepRaps work now? 00:04:23 yep 00:04:43 yeah, you kinda need nanotech for grey goo 00:04:57 lament: thus why I said light gray goo 00:06:27 I wonder how fast gray goo would be. 00:06:31 Seconds? Minutes? Hours? Years? 00:06:32 +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(:)*)(!!:^(^)*))a~*^!!^):^aS 00:06:32 (!!:^(^)*) 00:06:41 Gray goo would be a lot like bacteria. 00:06:42 oerjan: wuzzat 00:06:48 darn 00:07:05 Warrigal: I prefer thinking of something that takes a few minutes to cross the whole earth. 00:07:12 zuff: that's too fast. 00:07:20 lament: >:( 00:07:31 lament: Millenia? 00:07:38 they can't move fast by themselves 00:07:46 being so small 00:07:48 why would they move 00:07:55 if they want to go in some direction, just replicate that way 00:07:56 +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(:):S*)(!!:^(^):S*))a~*^!!^):^ 00:08:04 bah 00:08:10 zuff: you need resources to replicate 00:08:15 you need to get resources somewhere first 00:08:22 lament: stuff around you :P 00:08:30 like what, air? 00:08:36 yeah! :P 00:08:47 they also need energy 00:09:13 airnergy 00:09:39 air in itself is probably not very energetic, although you can burn things in it 00:10:16 * Warrigal finds out how much is produced in the United States in one day 00:10:24 No, that's not right. 00:10:25 In one minute. 00:10:39 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 00:11:20 +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(:)*)(!!:^(^)*))a~*^(~aS:^):^):^ 00:11:21 ()((!())(!:^(:)*)(!!:^(^)*))(~((!())(!:^(:)*)(!!:^(^)*))a~*^(~aS:^):^)(())(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)(())(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*) ...too much output! 00:11:33 About $27,000,000. Cool. 00:11:58 oerjan: is this look and say? 00:12:09 no, it's what i was doing initially 00:12:22 next step 00:12:38 lol 00:13:24 oh right 00:13:25 hmm. trying to open {:^}^n? 00:13:33 oklopol: exactly 00:13:36 what? 00:13:41 figured 00:13:48 er wait 00:13:59 hm i could do that, but this is more ambitious 00:14:09 uhhuh? 00:14:29 i realized : and ^ should be easier than : and a which i had thought of before but which was too complicated 00:14:31 zuff: that's pretty standard notation 00:14:39 wat wat wat 00:14:43 oerjan: what does your program do 00:15:02 {:^}^n, n-tuples from {":", "^"} 00:15:05 ... 00:15:06 k 00:15:09 +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(:)*)(!!:^(^)*))~*^!!^):^aS 00:15:09 (^:^^:^::) 00:15:13 yes! 00:15:19 8| 00:15:27 holy fuck man. 00:15:31 +ul (::**) (:)~*(*)* S 00:15:32 wanna step me through it? 00:15:37 you realized what it did? 00:15:41 ... 00:15:42 ... 00:15:46 +ul (::**)(:)~*(*)*S 00:15:46 :::*** 00:15:50 INCREMENT 00:15:51 oerjan: your mother realized what that did. 00:16:05 :) 00:16:27 oerjan: so, err, yes, yes i did 00:16:30 it's a compact bit representation, using : and ^ for bits. this program just computes NOT 00:16:34 now step me through it! 00:16:57 yeah maybe that could be the standard way to do bitstrings in underload :) 00:17:01 you should consult ais523 00:17:16 oerjan: now step me through it 00:17:27 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 00:17:35 and as you pointed out it can also analyze standard numbers 00:17:44 well 00:17:46 it occurs to me that a far easier number representation is: 00:17:59 (^ x N) 00:18:00 that is 00:18:02 3 = (^^^) 00:18:03 zuff: this is for compactness, not ease 00:18:12 +ul (^^^)(^)* 00:18:15 +ul (^^^)(^)*S 00:18:15 ^^^^ 00:18:17 INCREMENT 00:18:21 I dunno how to subtract :D 00:18:21 oh wait 00:18:37 hmm 00:18:43 zuff: i'm not convinced. 00:18:43 +ul (^^^)((^)*)S 00:18:43 (^)* 00:18:47 er, oops 00:18:50 +ul (^^^)((^)*)~^S 00:18:51 ...^ out of stack! 00:18:55 wat? 00:18:55 oh 00:19:01 +ul (^^^)(!)((^)*)~^S 00:19:01 ^^^ 00:19:05 oerjan: are you preparing the step-through ;) 00:19:06 +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(:)*)(!!:^(^)*))~*^!!^):^aS 00:19:06 (^:^^:^::) 00:19:07 ? 00:19:08 okay so 00:19:09 hmm 00:19:15 +ul (^^^)(aaaa)((^)*)~^S 00:19:15 (((((^)*)))) 00:19:23 +ul (^^^)(!)((^)*)~^S 00:19:24 ^^^ 00:19:30 oh um 00:19:31 duh 00:19:31 oklopol: in this damn noise? 00:19:32 XD 00:19:42 oerjan: i don't mind. 00:19:46 if you do, i have priv 00:19:49 +ul ()((^)*)(^^^)^S 00:19:49 ...^ out of stack! 00:19:52 wattt 00:20:01 zuff: almost there 00:20:04 oh wait 00:20:09 -!- jayCampbell has left (?). 00:20:09 the representation 00:20:10 should be 00:20:19 hmm. 00:20:20 well 00:20:24 dup dip call dup dip call dup dip call 00:20:27 sort of thing 00:20:29 uhh you know what i mean 00:20:47 oklopol: first, we arrange to get () ((())~:a~*) (:^::^:^^) on the stack 00:21:04 then we run a ^ 00:21:12 er wait 00:21:13 okay... 00:21:30 not ((())~:a~*) but the result of ((())~:a~*):a~* 00:22:04 that program is essential for the building up. if it is run, it leaves (()) plus itself on the stack 00:22:42 the first () is for marking the bottom of stack 00:23:11 okay 00:23:26 now when we run (:^::^:^^) with ((())~:a~*):a~* = (((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*) below 00:23:43 each : will just copy it 00:24:12 while each ^ will run it, leaving a (()) below a copy of it 00:24:48 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:25:16 after running (:^::^:^^) we have turned each : -> (((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*) and each ^ -> (()) . 00:25:22 repeat main program: 00:25:40 +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(:)*)(!!:^(^)*))~*^!!^):^aS 00:25:40 (^:^^:^::) 00:26:11 how trivial. 00:26:26 tbh i kinda dropped off the wagon at some point, i'd probably have to run that on paper to really get it. 00:26:32 (or look at it before 2 am) 00:26:34 then we do a ! to get rid of the top copy of (((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*). now we just have () at the bottom, (()) for each ^ and (((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*) for each : 00:26:44 hmm oh 00:27:03 not ready yet :) 00:27:10 * oklopol tries to concentrate 00:27:22 this is the state after (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^! 00:27:43 let me do a run to show the stack 00:27:53 oh wait 00:27:58 +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~aS:^):^ 00:27:59 (())(())(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)(())(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)(())(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)() ...a out of stack! 00:28:06 i'm not sure you have to, i got it on the second read. 00:28:08 pretty simple 00:28:20 (recall this is printed top down) 00:28:30 well someone else might want to follow too 00:28:45 : copies the droppifier, ^ makes it drop 00:29:06 so naturally after the run the droppifiers and droppeds represent the string. 00:29:09 not quite drop, buts (()) under it 00:29:13 yes 00:29:16 *puts 00:29:30 just happened to use a stack term with the complete opposite meaning :P 00:30:14 and now the different marks are conveniently differentiated by how much they leave on the stack when run: () drops itself, (()) leaves just 1, and (((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*) leaves two elements when run 00:30:41 yeah, the rest is just technical mongering. 00:30:47 which by the way i'm pretty surprised fit that little space 00:31:06 even though hmm yeah that's a simple way to distinguish 00:31:24 anyway, like i've said before, you're a god 00:32:02 \(O_O)/ 00:33:22 +ul (^)()(~:*~:)(^^^)^S 00:33:22 ^^ 00:33:28 +ul (^)(~:*~:)(~:*~:)(^^^)^S 00:33:29 ~:*~: 00:33:35 ... 00:34:04 +ul (^)(~:*~:)(~:*~:)(^^^)!!^S 00:34:04 ...: out of stack! 00:34:08 +ul (^)(~:*~:)(~:*~:)(^^^)!^S 00:34:08 ~:*~: 00:34:13 :< 00:34:22 +ul (^)(~:*~:)(~:*~:)(^^^)^!S 00:34:23 ~:*~: 00:34:26 +ul (^)(~:*~:)(~:*~:)(^^^)^!!S 00:34:26 ^^^^^^^^ 00:34:36 lol yeah okay good 00:34:52 +ul (^)(~(^)**~:)(~(^)**~:)(^^^)^!!S 00:34:52 ...: out of stack! 00:35:13 +ul (^)(~(^)*~:)(~(^)*~:)(^^^)^!!S 00:35:13 ^^^^ 00:35:30 +ul ()(~(^)*~:)(~(^)*~:)()(^^^)^!!S 00:35:30 ^^ 00:36:00 +ul (^^^)()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~^!!S 00:36:00 ^^^ 00:36:09 ... 00:36:13 +ul (^^^)()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~^!!S 00:36:13 ^^ 00:36:25 zuff: . 00:37:43 anyway i'm off to sleep, i'm very tired am i. 00:37:45 -> 01:14:50 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:16:37 -!- adu has joined. 01:18:33 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:19:37 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:28:59 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:29:01 +ul (^^^^)()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~()~^!!S 01:29:01 ^^ 01:29:07 +ul (^^^^)()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~()~()~^!!S 01:29:07 ^ 01:32:54 +ul ()()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~^!!S 01:32:55 ~(^)*~: 01:33:06 +ul (^)()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~^!!S 01:33:23 +ul (^^)()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~^!!S 01:33:23 ^ 01:34:03 +ul (^)()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~^!!(")SS(")S 01:34:04 "" 01:35:32 +ul (!)()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~^!!(")SS(")S 01:35:32 "" 01:36:37 +ul ((x)S^^)()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~^!!(")SS(")S 01:36:37 x"^" 01:37:03 +ul ((x)S^(x)S^(x)S)()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~^!!(")SS(")S 01:37:03 xxx"^" 01:38:40 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:42:55 +ul (^^^^)(^^)~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~^!!S 01:42:56 ^^^^^^ 01:45:22 +ul (^^^^)(^^)(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~^!!S 01:45:23 ^^^^^^ 01:47:23 +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!()((*)~:a~*a*^):a~*)(!:^(:)~^)(!!:^(^)~^))~*^!!^):^aS 01:47:23 (((*)~:a~*a*^)(*)~:a~*a*^) 01:47:59 +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!()((*)~:a~*a*^):a~*)(!:^(:)~^)(!!:^(^)~^))~*^!!^):^!aS 01:47:59 (^:^^:^::) 01:51:08 +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(~^)*))~*^!!^):^aS 01:51:08 (~^^~^~^^~^^^) 01:51:27 +ul (^^^^^)(^^^)~(~()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~^~:)~(~()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~^~:)~^!!S 01:51:27 ~(^)*~:^^^^ 01:51:39 +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(~^)*)(!!:^(^)*))~*^!!^):^aS 01:51:39 (^~^^^~^^~^~^) 02:06:37 hi 02:06:45 ho 02:06:50 how are you 02:06:54 , 2 02:07:19 +ul (:^:) 02:07:35 + ul (:::::) 02:07:42 no printing statement in there 02:08:03 oerjan: i don't know thu 02:08:08 +ul (:^:)S 02:08:08 :^: 02:08:12 it's underload 02:08:30 oh 02:08:33 ok 02:08:37 I know forth 02:08:37 functional stack language 02:09:04 how so? 02:09:18 ^ runs the command at top of stack 02:09:27 : duplicates the top of stack 02:09:45 ~ switches top two stack elements 02:09:52 S prints top of stack 02:10:05 a adds parentheses around top of stack 02:10:17 +ul (:::):^S 02:10:17 ::: 02:10:40 +ul (:::)^S 02:10:40 ...: out of stack! 02:10:49 ! drops the top of stack 02:11:01 +ul ::::S 02:11:02 ...: out of stack! 02:11:06 the : had nothing duplicate there 02:11:16 *to duplicate 02:11:44 (...) puts ... as an element on top of the stack 02:11:44 +ul (hello world)S 02:11:45 hello world 02:11:56 +ul helloworldS 02:12:13 that's illegal because h is not a command. 02:12:18 oh 02:12:29 so I guess parentheses don't work like I thought 02:12:39 nope, they are like quoting 02:12:59 * concatenates the two top stack elements 02:13:02 +ul (hi)(lo)~S 02:13:02 hi 02:13:14 +ul (hi)(lo)~SS 02:13:14 hilo 02:13:19 +ul (hi)(lo)SS 02:13:19 lohi 02:14:34 +ul (:aSS):aSS 02:14:35 (:aSS):aSS 02:15:01 What language is this? 02:15:06 underload 02:15:21 see above 02:15:34 also, on the wiki 02:16:10 +ul (<)S 02:16:10 < 02:16:19 +ul ("<)S 02:16:19 "< 02:16:31 So much for []<> being reserved? 02:16:36 +ul (h"i)S 02:16:36 h"i 02:16:37 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Wiki: http://esolangs.org. 02:17:04 Sgeo: no known interpreter implements that, it says as much 02:17:39 although " quoting could be useful. especially if it ignored that they cannot be used with ordinary parentheses. 02:18:16 +ul (()S 02:18:16 ...out of time! 02:18:18 +ul ("()S 02:18:19 ...out of time! 02:18:31 nope, and the spec also says you cannot 02:21:53 +ul ((*)(*))(~:^~S( )S~a^*a*~:^):^ 02:21:53 * ...: out of stack! 02:21:57 oops 02:22:49 +ul ((*)(*))(~:^~S( )Sa~^*a*~:^):^ 02:22:50 * * ** *** ***** ******** ************* ********************* ********************************** ******************************************************* ...too much output! 02:34:04 +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(:^)*)(!!:^(^)*))~*^!!^):^aS 02:34:04 (^:^^^:^^:^:^) 02:34:24 +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(~^)*)(!!:^(^)*))~*^!!^):^aS 02:34:24 (^~^^^~^^~^~^) 02:34:50 +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(:)*))~*^!!^):^aS 02:34:50 (:^::^:^^) 02:35:41 hm... 02:37:02 +ul (::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^:*)(!!:^:*(*)*))~*^!!^):^aS 02:37:02 (****************************************************) 02:37:43 +ul (^::^:)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^:*)(!!:^:*(*)*))~*^!!^):^aS 02:37:44 (*************) 02:37:48 :) 02:40:12 wow 02:41:23 adu: i found out how to unpack lists of ^ and : as binary strings. it's not trivial because underload has no basic way of taking apart the inside of parentheses. 02:42:41 you have to trick the ^ and : commands into doing the work for you 02:43:13 oerjan: then make it do it 02:43:39 um i just did? 02:43:49 +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^((caret))*)(!!:^((colon))*))~*^!!^):^aS 02:43:49 ((colon)(caret)(colon)(colon)(caret)(colon)(caret)(caret)) 02:45:29 -!- adu has quit. 02:45:31 essentially you can turn each of : and ^ into any sequence of commands you choose, by putting it where it says ((caret))* and ((colon))* 02:45:42 oh he left 02:48:59 +ul (^^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^((caret))*)(!!:^((colon))*))~*^!!^):^aS 02:48:59 ((caret)(caret)(caret)) 02:49:13 you can also select the recursion base case inside the (!()) 02:49:26 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 02:49:37 Cool. 02:59:41 +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!(<))(!:^(0)*)(!!:^(1)*))~*^!!^):^(>)*S 02:59:41 <10110100> 02:59:43 Hmm. I wonder if one row of the Sierpinski gasket is the Cantor set, scaled linearly. 03:00:12 topologically it must be 03:01:03 (the cantor set is the unique zero-dimensional compact metric space without isolated points, if i'm not forgetting something) 03:02:19 hm except some rows of the sierpinsky gasket have whole lines, at least in part 03:02:36 such as the outer edges 03:03:16 but if you pick a coordinate which doesn't have a finite binary representation, you should avoid those 03:04:25 But I said scaled linearly. That's a bit stronger than a homeomorphism. 03:04:45 yes 03:05:57 it would not be the same proportions at every scale, i don't think 03:06:35 unless you hit some spot which solves an equation to make it exact, possibly 03:07:01 I think I'll stare at it until I know the answer. 03:07:54 The answer is no. 03:07:56 note that the obvious spots where you would expect an exact trisection are where you have whole lines 03:07:58 That was easy enough. 03:10:22 however, it may be of a generalized form, where you have a sequence of numbers to determine how much to remove at each step 03:11:13 but all blocks get the same amount removed in a given step 03:11:27 Remove the middle half instead of the middle third. 03:11:32 That's in the Sierpinski gasket. 03:12:01 for _some_ rows. it varies. 03:12:10 Yes. 03:12:56 There's a piecewise recursive formula for this, no doubt. 03:13:38 i think possibly the proportions taken away at one step is a function of the previous step 03:14:09 so you really need only one number 03:15:38 note there are some symmetries there. the top triangle is a rescaling of the whole, preserving all the removed proportions 03:16:01 Yeah. 03:16:06 (for a horizontal row) 03:16:23 hm vertical ones are different 03:16:47 they will not be that simple 03:17:05 Vertical lines sound fun. 03:17:39 they will not have whole line segments, but may have isolated points instead 03:18:01 Straight down the middle, you get countably infinitely many points. 03:18:14 was just about to say 03:18:18 Homeomorphic to {0, 1/2, 2/3, 3/4, . . ., 1}. 03:18:55 Anywhere else, it's probably still a piecewise recursive matter. 03:19:09 Now, ponder lines of slope 1/phi. :-P 03:19:18 i think x with finite binary expansion also gives countable set 03:19:27 Yep. 03:20:26 otherwise, it should be at least a topological cantor set i think 03:20:44 (no isolated points) 03:21:49 ok 03:23:02 i assume with any non-trivial angle, you can never get line segments, and only get isolated points if you hit the corner of a subtriangle. 03:24:40 which means for each angle there are only a countable number of lines that don't give a topological cantor set 03:27:14 Cantor set contains all trinary numbers that can be written without any 1's. 0.202002020220202002202020022 in base-3. 03:27:16 also i think there are only a countable number of angles for which you can intersect more than one isolated point 03:27:53 possibly ending with a single 1 03:28:06 -!- Corun has joined. 03:28:18 because if you intersect two, you intersect two triangle corners, and are down to some rational numbers as coordinates 03:28:50 MizardX: a single 1 = 0222222222222... anyway 03:29:04 ah 03:29:15 but that would be infinite 03:29:20 yeah 03:30:02 but you avoid special cases that way, so may be worth it 03:36:05 .0222... is a special case? 03:37:29 if you write it as .1 03:38:26 Oh. 03:38:46 The Cantor set contains infinite decimals anyway. 04:34:55 The rational fractions with infinite trinary expansion would have to be of the form '0.xxxx(yyyy)', where 'yyyy' is repeating. If 'x' is 'n' trits long, and 'y' is 'm' trits long, then those numbers could be written as 'x / 3^n + y / (3^m+1) / 3^n'. 04:40:06 oh, and neither xxxx nor yyyy can contain any '1'. 04:46:09 err... that would be (3^m - 1) 04:46:33 1/4 = 0.020202... = 0.(02) = 0/3^0 + 2/(3^2 - 1) = 2/8 = 1/4 05:10:20 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 05:47:21 -!- revcompgeek has joined. 05:52:16 -!- revcompgeek has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 06:20:20 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:32:44 -!- revcompgeek has joined. 06:38:21 -!- revcompgeek has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 07:57:47 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:06:30 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 09:13:56 -!- jix has joined. 09:22:30 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 09:23:24 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:29:28 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 11:02:09 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:03:15 -!- puzzlet has joined. 11:52:06 -!- fungot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:42:36 -!- oklokok has joined. 12:46:09 -!- ineiros_ has changed nick to ineiros. 12:47:15 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:13:07 -!- jix has joined. 13:16:01 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird. 13:28:24 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 13:29:43 -!- jix has joined. 13:33:09 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff. 13:39:23 +ul (a)(:a~*)^ 13:39:26 +ul (a)(:a~*)^S 13:39:26 (a)a 13:39:34 +ul (a)(:a~*)^(:a~*)^S 13:39:34 ((a)a)(a)a 13:39:41 hm 14:10:21 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 14:16:23 -!- clsmith has joined. 14:22:19 -!- jix has joined. 14:30:54 http://www.blackbirdhome.com/ what 14:32:14 African Americans need a different browser to caucasians, see. It's a fact of life. Different, uh, internet habits? 14:34:13 Yes. 14:34:20 Oh wow, it even has black search and black bookmarks. Which are different from normal search and bookmarks, because of their... colour. 14:34:32 Proposal: Black browsers can only access black sites 14:34:41 Same for every other trait 14:34:48 That way we can divide everyone again. :D 14:34:56 Conclusion: lots of fail. 14:35:02 also, you need a Black License to download any Black Browsers 14:35:11 to be sure you're not some random whitey poking around in the black 'net 14:38:12 clsmith: you new here? :) 14:38:19 zuff: I am. :) 14:38:43 welcome 14:38:49 Thanks. xP 14:38:55 clsmith: have you gone through the initiation procedure yet? 14:39:22 zuff: Would it be tactical for me to say yes? 14:39:29 No. 14:39:35 Nom then. 14:39:38 ... *No 14:39:48 clsmith: Okay, it's very simple, just sacrifice a few goats. 14:39:51 20 should be enough. 14:40:02 Also, you have to drink about three cups of children's blood. 14:40:06 'sall there is to it. 14:40:26 Psh. Some initiation; I do that every week or so. 14:41:13 clsmith: I should avoid mentioning the massive orgy/lobotomy hybrid, then. 14:41:23 Umm. Forget I said that. 14:44:20 Has anyone ever written a Tar program in Befunge? 'Cause I was thinking of doing one. 14:45:02 Nope. That'd be neat. 14:45:05 93 or 98? 14:45:13 98. For the i/o etc. 14:45:26 +ul (:(^)~a*^)(:(^)~a*^)* 14:45:29 +ul (:(^)~a*^)(:(^)~a*^)*S 14:45:29 :(^)~a*^:(^)~a*^ 14:45:36 welp, addition is pretty trivial. 14:45:43 now to do the * prog 14:45:51 +ul (*S)(:(^)~a*^)^ 14:45:52 ...* out of stack! 14:45:55 +ul ((*)S)(:(^)~a*^)^ 14:45:56 * 14:46:00 +ul ((*)S)(:(^)~a*^:(^)~a*^)^ 14:46:00 ** 14:46:02 Awesome. 14:46:12 Hmm. 14:46:14 Subtraction: 14:46:33 HmHm. 14:46:43 o. 14:46:44 hm 14:46:45 ah 14:48:14 +ul (:(^)~a*^:(^)~a*^)((:(^)~a*^))~:(^!())~a*^!(*)~^S 14:48:15 * 14:48:23 +ul (:(^)~a*^)((:(^)~a*^))~:(^!())~a*^!(*)~^S 14:48:23 * 14:48:26 wat 14:48:34 o 14:58:19 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 15:50:26 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:15:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:22:41 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 16:23:01 Gaiz 16:23:22 wat 16:23:31 How much time would you estimate a txt file with roughly 6 million chars would take to open? 16:23:39 open, none. 16:23:41 read, long time. 16:23:58 Open with Notepad, that is. 16:24:09 It's been a while and still no dice. 16:24:33 never. 16:24:43 It does seem like it, doesn't it. 16:24:52 I guess I'll go back with a hundred thousand numbers. 16:25:21 well you see notepad's opening time is really an ackermann function of the input length. it's just that the constant overhead is really low so you don't notice until you get up to some size. 16:26:11 Heh. 16:26:46 Well, I'm back at ~600,000 chars, which I know it can open in reasonable time. 16:26:57 (I'm testing a random number generator)) 16:29:51 Although it's still pretty Ackermanny 16:30:15 Please make a plot of notepad's file-opening time as a function of the file length. 16:30:31 With what, a stopwatch? 16:30:40 I'm a lousy programmer, as you know 16:31:08 Yes, a stopwatch. Take at least a dozen measurements for each data point to get more reliable values, also. 16:31:20 SendMessageTimeout might work. 16:31:35 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal. 16:32:13 Ah, there it is. 16:32:18 (The file) 16:32:47 Now let's plot shit with it 16:32:47 ... 16:32:47 ... 16:32:47 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 16:32:58 Bad results 16:33:01 I have to try again 16:33:15 FOR SCIENCE! 16:33:44 The program takes like a microsecond to run 16:33:53 And the resulting file ten minutes to open 16:34:40 I think notepad actually gives up and refuses to open files above a certain size. 16:34:49 have you checked that the file size is what you think? 16:35:06 It's 887 KB. 16:35:21 try wordpad, i vaguely recall that is better 16:35:21 it's worse if you have word wrap on 16:37:20 I just opened a 2MB file in 7 seconds. I think it also helps if it doesn't think your file isn't full of CJK characters... 16:37:59 * oerjan doubts that 16:38:17 which part? 16:38:19 it uses a heuristic to distinguish UTF-16 files from ascii files 16:38:20 only if because of the double negation, you see 16:38:29 oh, right 16:39:21 NEVER AVOID ESCHEWING DOUBLE NEGATION 16:39:21 it's slightly ironic that my constant revision and re-organizing of my sentences results in poorer grammar than it started with :( 16:41:37 I was going to ask if double negation cancels out in Finnish (because it doesn't cancel out in Hungarian), but then realised you're not Finnish :) 16:43:01 it doesn't cancel out in norwegian either, for what it's worth 16:43:11 +_!%# 16:44:01 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:44:08 zuff: you should do something about those exposed entrails 16:44:16 +_!%# 16:48:40 Rather esoteric C question... how fast would calling mmap with O_CREAT be? 16:48:50 I mean, does it create immediately or lazily? 16:48:57 And how quick is that? 16:49:05 O_CREAT sounds strangely religious 16:50:49 I also don't think it's a mmap flag at all. I don't see how it could create a file anyway since it only takes a file descriptor. 16:51:01 Err, yes. 16:51:07 Well, forget the mmap part. 16:51:11 How long does creating a file take? :P 16:51:28 Roughly, etc. 16:55:04 I think you need to do something rather explicit to cause it to actually preallocate the disk space and fill it with zeroes; I think even ftruncate() won't yet do it. 16:55:33 mm. 16:55:43 posix_fallocate() will, since that's what it's for. 16:55:46 For added WTF, this is, by the way, to replace malloc with open/mmap. 16:55:53 Fear. 16:56:24 Asztal: cancels 16:56:28 sleeps -> 17:10:30 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:10:41 909 002 bytes, was I saying. 17:10:51 Also here it is : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers7/GR.jpg 17:11:10 It's supposed to be a uniform distribution between 0 and 1. 17:11:17 With a thousand plot points. 17:11:47 who wants to partake in a random number challenge. 17:12:00 Well, it's just for class. 17:12:19 i know 17:12:21 it inspired me 17:12:21 :P 17:12:41 Also it's like the building block of my program, but I'm still fucking far from being done 17:13:11 It's not even used directly. 17:13:23 I use it to generate another random number, this time on a Boltzmann distribution 17:14:03 Basically, the idea is that we keep making RNG functions to get the even-distribution line as straight as possible. 17:14:09 The straightest one wins. (No gays allowed.) 17:14:58 Dude. 17:15:02 It's random. 17:15:10 Yes. 17:15:12 It's not supposed to be straight. 17:15:17 Unless you use infinity numbers. 17:15:19 I'm talking about the distribution. 17:15:36 You don't generate a distribution 17:15:43 You generate numbers. 17:15:54 Slereah_: no shit? 17:15:59 I mean the distribution of the rng function. 17:16:08 The graph isn't even the numbers, it's the normalized classes. 17:16:17 I don't care about your graph... 17:16:24 I'm not talking about it. 17:16:39 I would have done moar stuff, but it gets laggy after 100,000 17:17:27 Well, time to test the Boltzmann distribution now. 17:23:55 Shit. 17:24:04 That program doesn't work now :( 17:29:53 za programma kaputnik 17:30:17 I have to redo the classes thingamagig 17:48:15 Fuck 17:48:35 How can I impose conditions on constants in Mathematica? 17:48:48 Like say it's real and positive 17:56:05 I think you can use Assumptions[] for that. 17:56:25 Let's see. 17:56:27 Quite many commands also accept an Assumptions->{} parameter. 17:57:04 Apparently it's either the Assumpitions option or the Assuming[] command. 17:58:07 Assuming[x >= 0, Integrate[...]] might do something sensible. Although maybe it's not the sort of "constraint" you want. 17:59:04 1/Sqrt[2 \[Pi]]\[ExponentialE]^-(n v^2)/(2 l U) Sqrt[n/( 17:59:05 l U)] v^2 DifferentialD[v] 17:59:06 waaaat 17:59:15 Why is v still there after integration? 17:59:16 WHYYYYY 18:04:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 18:15:56 This is my RNG function: (phi*seed) modulo 1 18:16:09 seed should be values in [1..100000]. 18:16:25 Chosen sequentially. 18:16:46 return 4; 18:21:50 -!- Slereah- has joined. 18:21:50 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:22:51 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:22:51 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:28:22 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:53:33 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:59:27 -!- jix has joined. 20:18:03 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:56:38 -!- clsmith has left (?). 21:16:59 -!- Corun has joined. 21:47:58 "Windows got an essential update and decided to reboot your computer without your express permission." 21:48:10 That's why I have Windows ask for permission first. 21:49:05 where's that setting? 21:49:27 The registry somewhere, I think. 21:49:31 Whee, I use twitter now. 21:49:34 http://twitter.com/zuffix. 21:49:37 Add me so I feel worthwhile. 21:59:22 -!- cherez has joined. 22:03:10 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 22:14:17 well now I know what is worse than trying to stay connected to a machine with a dodgy connection 22:14:48 trying to stay connected to a machine with a dodgy connection from a machine with an independantly dodgy connection 22:24:19 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:29:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:31:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:38:46 I just ran into a crazy person today, a php coder who likes xhtml but can't stand xml. Does anyone else see the contradiction? (btw: is "does" or "do" the right word there?) 22:39:03 does. 22:39:11 and they're a php coder. ignore them. 22:39:19 but they probably mean 22:39:50 zuff, hm that could explain it I guess 22:40:14 and yes a php coder I know. I was just amazed at the contradiction in what he said, in the way he said it. 22:41:21 thanks for the report. :p 22:42:42 -!- cherez has left (?). 22:43:07 +ul (^^^!^!^!^^!^^)(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^aS 22:43:07 (!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*))(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*) ...too much output! 22:43:12 eek 22:43:21 oerjan: am i to understand you failed? 22:43:25 indeed 22:43:32 oh dear, that's not good. 22:43:35 what did you fail at? 22:43:50 * oklokok has idea for cool language, need to spec tomorrowww 22:43:52 at making the program work on first test run 22:44:14 yes of course, but i'm actually more interested in what it was supposed to do. 22:44:23 rule 110 22:44:40 :D 22:44:47 so cool 22:46:00 btw how do you write these, do you use another representation and compile manually, or just write it in one piece? i'm assuming you don't use another interp for cheating your way into works-on-first-attempt, for obvious reasons 22:46:02 ok time for some unit testing 22:46:11 write it in one piece yeah 22:46:21 okay, that's much cooler 22:46:32 * oklokok always cheats nowadays :< 22:46:35 otherwise, how would you make it brief enough for irc 22:46:54 well you can optimize after compilation 22:47:52 +ul (()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)^(~aS:^):^ 22:47:53 (!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*))(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*) ...too much output! 22:49:56 is ^^^!^!^!^^!^^... your input format? 22:50:01 yes 22:50:28 ! is zero, because zeroes are inactive 22:50:41 !^ is 0, ^ is 1. makes case selection easy. 22:50:44 ah. 22:51:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 22:52:11 ! would make no sense ofc, or you'd have to have an infinite amount of () on the stack when running the first one 22:52:12 +ul (:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^(~aS:^):^ 22:52:13 (!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*))(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*) ...too much output! 22:52:38 darn huge subprogram 22:52:40 but with !^, you can keep state on tos, in some form 22:56:13 +ul (()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)^^!!(~aS:^):^ 22:56:13 (!^((^)*)(!(!^)*))(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!)()() ...a out of stack! 22:56:57 oh wait of course 22:57:17 on my first test, i forgot all of the post-cleanup before printing 22:58:01 do... did that work? 22:58:04 *so 22:58:14 new try 22:58:24 +ul (^^^!^!^!^^!^^)(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!aS 22:58:24 (!^^!^!^^^^) 22:58:35 much better 22:59:02 (111000101) -> (0100111) 22:59:18 that's correct 22:59:29 -!- SimonRC has quit ("Reconnecting"). 22:59:32 -!- SimonRC has joined. 23:00:21 make it show iterations of (^) 23:00:27 ad infinitum 23:02:44 what do you mean (^) ? 23:03:12 also, you will notice that so far it cuts off the edges 23:03:50 +ul (^^^!^!^!^^!^^)(~:aS(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!:aS~:^):^ 23:03:51 (^^^!^!^!^^!^^)(!^^!^!^^^^)(!^^!^!^^^^)(^!^^^!^)(^!^^^!^)(^^^)(^^^)(!^)(!^)()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() ...too much output! 23:04:12 oh 23:04:18 +ul (^^^!^!^!^^!^^)(~:aS(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 23:04:19 (^^^!^!^!^^!^^)(!^^!^!^^^^)(^!^^^!^)(^^^)(!^)()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() ...too much output! 23:04:51 plz start @ (^) 23:04:55 i mean 23:05:00 the sequence of just 1 23:05:09 +ul (^)(~:aS(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 23:05:10 (^)()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() ...too much output! 23:05:16 err. 23:05:21 but... 23:05:32 i told you it cuts off the edges 23:05:42 ohhh. 23:05:48 so... 23:06:01 you can't run that in any way? hmm... 23:06:10 +ul (^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1^)(~:aS(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 23:06:10 (^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1^) ...! out of stack! 23:06:18 +ul (^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!^)(~:aS(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 23:06:19 (^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!^) ...! out of stack! 23:06:28 oklokok: !^, not ! 23:06:29 ... 23:06:32 yes yes 23:06:50 +ul (^!^!^!^!^^!^!^!^!^^)(~:aS(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 23:06:52 (^!^!^!^!^^!^!^!^!^^)(!^!^!^^^!^!^!^^)(!^^^^!^!^^)(^!^^!^^)(^^^)(!^)()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() ...too much output! 23:07:06 hmm. 23:07:16 died just before the first interesting step 23:07:23 +ul (^!^!^!^!^!^^!^!^!^!^!^^)(~:aS(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 23:07:24 (^!^!^!^!^!^^!^!^!^!^!^^)(!^!^!^!^^^!^!^!^!^^)(!^!^^^^!^!^!^^)(^^!^^!^!^^)(^^^!^^)(!^^^)(^)()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() ...too much output! 23:09:04 hmmhmm. 1000001000001 -> 00001100001 -> 001110001 -> 1101001 <<< here 1101 is what became out of the 111, right? 23:09:30 just a moment 23:11:39 +ul (^!^!^!^!^!^^!^!^!^!^!^^)(~:(:a~*:((0)S)~*~((1)S)~*):^~^( )S!!(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 23:11:39 0 1 23:11:45 hmph 23:12:03 making it output in binary? 23:12:07 yes 23:12:20 * SimonRC gives up for this evening. 23:12:22 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:12:24 oh right 23:12:32 +ul (^!^!^!^!^!^^!^!^!^!^!^^)(~:(:a~*:((0)S)~*~(!(1)S)~*):^~^( )S!!(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 23:12:32 0 1 23:12:42 btw. if it's not too much trouble, i suggest making it not cur things, i mean (^) is the only thing i've seen 110 run on, that's what i wanna see. 23:12:51 *cut things 23:13:02 who wants to figure out the most elegant way to do this ul arith system: 23:13:04 you can make it *cure things though 23:13:13 a(b)2^ 23:13:13 is 23:13:15 the alternative is growing it 23:13:17 abb 23:13:32 oerjan: that's okay imo. 23:13:46 but first output 23:13:57 although you can prolly just grow in one direction, because, well, 110. 23:13:58 (also, wrapping, when i get around to it) 23:17:27 oh right 23:19:22 +ul (^!^!^!^!^!^^!^!^!^!^!^^)(~:(:a~*:((0)S)~*~(!(1)S)~*):a~*~*^( )S!!(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 23:19:26 1000001000001 00001100001 001110001 1101001 11101 011 1 ...too much output! 23:20:20 yeah okay looks like it works, somewhat. 23:20:33 +ul (^)(~:(:a~*:((0)S)~*~(!(1)S)~*):a~*~*^( )S!!(!^!^)~*(!^)*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 23:20:37 1 11 111 1101 11111 110001 1110011 11010111 111111101 1100000111 11100001101 110100011111 1111100110001 11000101110011 111001111010111 1101011001111101 11111111011000111 110000001111001101 1110000011001011111 11010000111011110001 111110001101110010011 1100 ...too much output! 23:26:48 (^^^^^!^!^!^^^!^^^^!^!^^!^!^^^)(~:(:a~*:((0)S)~*~(!(1)S)~*):a~*~*^( )S!!(!^!^)~*(!^)*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 23:26:52 er 23:26:52 +ul (^^^^^!^!^!^^^!^^^^!^!^^!^!^^^)(~:(:a~*:((0)S)~*~(!(1)S)~*):a~*~*^( )S!!(!^!^)~*(!^)*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 23:26:56 111110001101110010011 1100010011111010110111 11100110110001111111101 110101111110011000000111 1111111000010111000001101 11000001000111101000011111 111000011001100111000110001 1101000111011101101001110011 11111001101110111111011010111 1100010111110111000011 ...too much output! 23:27:38 +ul (^^^^^!^!^^^!^^^^!^^^^^^^!^^^!^^!^^^^)(~:(:a~*:((0)S)~*~(!(1)S)~*):a~*~*^( )S!!(!^!^)~*(!^)*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 23:27:41 11111001101110111111011010111 110001011111011100001111111101 1110011110001110100011000000111 11010110010011011100111000001101 111111110110111110101101000011111 1100000011111100011111111000110001 11100000110000100110000001001110011 1101000011100011011100000 ...too much output! 23:28:20 when that long, irssi now wraps them under each other 23:28:51 hey cool 23:28:52 hm although the growing to the left makes it shift 23:29:33 just mirror the rules 23:29:53 i'm sure that's trivial ;) 23:30:18 might be simpler to reverse printing, actually 23:32:59 +ul (^^^^^!^!^^^!^^^^!^^^^^^^!^^^!^^!^^^^)(~:(())(:a~*:((0)~*)~*~(!(1)~*)~*):a~**~*^( )*S!!(!^!^)~*(!^)*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 23:33:00 !(1)~*(:a~*:((0)~*)~*~(!(1)~*)~*):a~*:((0)~*)~*~(!(1)~*)~* !(1)~*(:a~*:((0)~*)~*~(!(1)~*)~*):a~*:((0)~*)~*~(!(1)~*)~* !(1)~*(:a~*:((0)~*)~*~(!(1)~*)~*):a~*:((0)~*)~*~(!(1)~*)~* ...too much output! 23:33:20 fnord 23:33:39 +ul (^^^^^!^!^^^!^^^^!^^^^^^^!^^^!^^!^^^^)(~:(())(:a~*:((0)~*)~*~(!(1)~*)~*):a~**~*^!!( )*S(!^!^)~*(!^)*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 23:33:42 11101011011111101110110011111 101111111100001110111110100011 1110000001100010111000111100111 10110000011100111011001001101011 111110000101101011111011011111111 1000110001111111100011111100000011 11001110010000001100100001100000111 111010110110000011101100011100001011 ...too much output! 23:37:15 of course changing the rules is also trivial, since about one line is a rule table 23:59:23 -!- olsner_ has quit ("Leaving"). 2008-12-12: 00:35:55 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird. 00:37:28 you think you're so tough. 00:37:36 but let me tell you something 00:37:49 * oklokok tries to come up with something to tell you 00:38:04 i just ate meatballs 00:40:18 whose balls? 00:40:34 my balls 00:40:38 ouch 00:40:41 i bought them with my money 00:40:44 and then i ate them 00:40:47 with ketchup 00:53:19 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol. 00:53:41 * oklopol contributes to the discussion 00:54:08 * oerjan raises an obscure point 00:55:07 * oklopol called your bluff 00:55:10 *calls 00:56:16 * oerjan references a (locally) well-known example from Botswana 00:57:33 * oklopol dances around the example, then normalizes it 00:58:18 * oerjan pokes oklopol with a stick ===== 00:58:23 (bamboo) 00:59:08 are you making a new swatter? :\ 00:59:44 nothing wrong with my old one -----### 01:00:25 good, good 01:00:58 i mean, non-elastic shaft = pain^2 01:01:15 ic 01:08:12 was that like "hmm... you're right... /me reconsiders" 01:09:47 oh i think that can explain why my saucepan was never very popular 01:09:58 * oerjan hits oklopol with it ===\___/ 01:10:50 * oerjan then swats oklopol -----### 01:11:02 * oklopol calls mom 01:11:44 would you say the saucepan is (1) better than the swatter (2) worse than the swatter (3) equally good (4) oh, the pain, the pain 01:12:38 won't your mom be annoyed when you call in the middle of the night? 01:12:59 oerjan: why would you ask that, you know perfectly well i'm going to answer (5). 01:13:12 my parents are never annoyed 01:13:19 ah right, (5) please do it again 01:13:31 * oerjan happily obliges ===\___/ 01:13:31 especially my mom 01:13:48 :'( 01:14:57 i can promise you nothing but blood, sweat and tears. especially the first. 01:22:18 i think i should go now 01:22:30 i mean, going is what i do best 01:22:51 also, avoiding going 01:22:59 those two are clearly on the top 01:23:00 yes 01:23:05 yeah 01:23:13 buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut i'm pretty tired 01:23:17 so i don't think it'll be a problem 01:23:21 as you can clearly see 01:24:57 err -> 01:43:05 +ul (()())(:~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^)(^!^!^!^)^(~aS:^):^ 01:43:06 ...^ out of stack! 01:43:27 +ul (()())(:~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^)(~aS:^):^ 01:43:28 (!(^)~^^)((!^)~^!^)(()()(:~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*) ...a out of stack! 01:43:55 +ul (()())(:~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^)^(~aS:^):^ 01:43:55 (:~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*)(!*(^)^(^))(*(!^)^(^))()(^) ...a out of stack! 01:47:05 +ul (()())(:~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**^(~aS:^):^ 01:47:06 (!*(^):~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*(:~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*))(*(!^):~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*(:~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*))()() ...a out of stack! 01:49:36 +ul (()())(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^)(^!^!^!^)^(~aS:^):^ 01:49:37 (!*(^)(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*)(*(!^)(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*)(!^)(^!^!^)(^) ...a out of stack! 01:50:59 +ul (()())(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^)^(~aS:^):^ 01:51:00 (!*(^)(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*)(*(!^)(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*)(^)()(^) ...a out of stack! 02:08:44 +ul (^!^!^!^)((()())(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(~aS:^):^ 02:08:45 (!^^!^!^!^^) ...a out of stack! 02:09:05 +ul (!^!^!^!^)((()())(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(~aS:^):^ 02:09:06 (!^!^!^!^!^!^) ...a out of stack! 02:09:16 +ul (!^!^!^^)((()())(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(~aS:^):^ 02:09:16 (^!^!^!^^!^) ...a out of stack! 02:14:51 +ul (^^^^^!^!^^^!^^^^!^^^^^^^!^^^!^^!^^^^)(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(0)S)~*~(!*(^)(1)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(!^!^)~*(!^)*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 02:14:55 11111001101110111111011010111 11000010111110111000011111111001 11010001111000111010001100000010111 11011100110010011011100111000001111001 11011101011101101111101011010000110010111 11011101111101111110001111111100011101111001 1101110111000111000010011000000 ...too much output! 02:15:04 oh wait 02:15:50 +ul (^^^^^!^!^^^!^^^^!^^^^^^^!^^^!^^!^^^^)(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(0)S)~*~(!*(^)(1)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 02:15:54 11111001101110111111011010111 00001011111011100001111111100 00011110001110100011000000100 00110010011011100111000001100 01110110111110101101000011100 11011111100011111111000110100 11110000100110000001001111101 00010001101110000011011000111 0011001111101000 ...too much output! 02:16:57 ... Wow. 02:16:58 +ul (^^!^^^^!^^^^^^!^^^^^^^!^!^!^^^^^^^^^!^!^!^^^^!^^^^^!^!^^)(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(0)S)~*~(!*(^)(1)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 02:17:02 11011101111101111110001111111100011101111001 01110111000111000010011000000100110111001011 11011101001101000110111000001101111101011111 01110111011111001111101000011111000111110000 11011101110001011000111000110001001100010000 1111011101001111100110100111001 ...too much output! 02:17:23 now it does proper wrapping at the edges 02:18:20 now to combine it with yesterday's idea 02:23:28 +ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(!^)*)(!!:^(^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 02:23:30 ::^:::^:::::^::::::^^^::::::::^^^:::^::::^^: :^^::^^::::^^:::::^^:^:::::::^^:^::^^:::^^^: ^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^^^^^::::::^^^^^:^^^:: ...too much output! 02:24:01 bah thutubot treats those as double length 02:24:20 oh it reversed it somewhere 02:24:58 +ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 02:25:01 ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ :^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^ ^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^: ...too much output! 02:27:20 +ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(!^)*)(!!:^(^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(^)S)~*~(!*(^)(:)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 02:27:23 ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ ^::^^::^^^^::^^^^^::^:^^^^^^^::^:^^::^^^:::^ :::^:::^^^:::^^^^:::::^^^^^^:::::^:::^^ ...too much output! 02:29:23 +ul (:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::^::::::::)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 02:29:26 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::^:::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::^^:::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::^^^:::::::: : ...too much output! 02:44:16 +ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()!()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^()!(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^()S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))()!~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 02:44:18 ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^:^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^:^ ...too much output! 02:44:26 oops 02:44:39 +ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()!()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^()!(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))()!~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 02:44:41 ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ :^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^ ^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^: ...too much output! 02:56:35 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:56:44 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:59:40 Warrigal: get bsmnt bot working yet? 03:00:14 I won't be able to continue for a while. 03:04:25 lame 03:24:08 -!- oerjan has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:25:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:28:05 -!- Warrigal has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:28:07 -!- Warrigal has joined. 03:43:37 +ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()()())(:a~*:(*~(:)*~(!^))~*~(!*~(^)*~(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~( )*S~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 03:43:40 ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ :^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^ ^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^:^^^^^ ...too much output! 03:58:41 +ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^((()())(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!(()(:a~*:((:)*)~*~(!(^)*)~*):a~*^)~*^aS 03:58:42 (!(^)*(:a~*:((:)*)~*~(!(^)*)~*):a~*:((:)*)~*~(!(^)*)~*) 03:59:16 +ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^((()())(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!(()(:a~*:((:)*)~*~(!(^)*)~*):a~*^)~*^!!aS 03:59:17 (:^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^) 04:00:38 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:00:44 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:07:59 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:08:05 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 04:33:53 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 05:52:04 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:58:30 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:58:34 -!- puzzlet has joined. 06:38:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:04:38 -!- olsner has joined. 08:12:39 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:12:43 -!- MizardX has joined. 08:13:53 -!- MizardX has quit (Client Quit). 08:18:08 -!- MizardX has joined. 09:37:43 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 09:37:47 -!- puzzlet has joined. 09:41:25 -!- jix has joined. 09:46:56 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 10:28:43 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 11:08:06 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:08:13 -!- puzzlet has joined. 11:20:46 ais523, hi 11:20:52 ais523, see /msg iirc 11:20:54 hi 11:20:57 and yes, I've seen it 11:21:11 also, the whole "gerund" thing came up in #esoteric a while back 11:21:16 I don't remember it, since I reconnected to the bnc a few times since then 11:21:19 I think you were in that conversatoin 11:21:24 ais523, ah hm 11:21:28 sounds familiar now 11:21:33 basically, a gerund is a word ending "-ing" that's a noun not a verb 11:21:38 or adjective 11:21:44 like "ending"? 11:22:00 well, the problem is words ending -ing could be either, it was a verb in that sentence 11:22:16 but, say, words like "programming" referring to the subject in general, rather than in sentences like "I am programming" 11:24:08 "gerund"'s a real English word, it just doesn't come up very often 11:25:33 hm 11:43:49 Quite a lot of languages have an almost identical, borrowed-from-latin word for it. Finnish has "gerundi", and I think I can count the situations I've seen it with the fingers of one hand. 11:44:17 Even one hand after a (hypothetical) gruesome accident might suffice. 12:05:12 havaitsen liioittelemista, fizzie. 12:07:52 oh 12:08:03 you meant the number of times you've seen the word "gerundi"? 12:08:35 i mean i don't think gerunds are very uncommon in finnish 12:09:24 (havaitsen liioittelemista = i notice exaggeration, joke being (i think) liioittelemista is a gerund itself) 12:38:06 -!- Corun has joined. 12:49:23 Yes, I meant the word itself. 12:52:48 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 12:57:12 yarrrrrr 13:09:11 What about "liioittelu", is that a gerund too? 13:09:32 (I don't think I've ever seen the word 'gerund' referring to any other language than English.) 13:11:07 s/any/a word in any/ 13:30:28 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff. 13:34:11 http://www.sometimesredsometimesblue.com/ a fucking ripoff of notalwaysblue.com! 13:38:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breech_birth 13:38:12 lol 13:38:15 Oops 13:38:18 Wrong chan. 13:38:22 But enjoy this link! 13:40:19 Slereah_: Well, why thank you. 13:43:07 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 13:43:27 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:00:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 14:28:23 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird. 14:29:00 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff. 14:36:53 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:36:58 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:38:41 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:18:05 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:54:20 -!- zuffii has joined. 16:56:00 hello 16:56:04 it works! 16:56:12 tee hee 16:56:18 this is great. 16:56:39 * ais523 tries to figure out what zuffii's doing 16:56:58 using a file-system based fifo irc client, http://www.suckless.org/programs/ii.html 16:57:03 tail -f and vim 16:57:16 I tail -f #esoteric/out, and run vim and do this map: 16:57:35 :map w :.w >> in^Vdd 16:57:43 (two terminals) 16:58:10 could be a lil more convenient, but haha, this rocks 16:58:23 wouldn't cat work better? 16:58:41 not really, I get vim navigation commands and stuff 16:58:49 also, when I hit w to send, it blanks the file 16:59:03 if I made vim one-line at the bottom of the tail -f, and bound it to enter instead... 16:59:22 test 16:59:24 :) 16:59:42 Wonder if this works. 17:00:57 test 17:01:00 okay, this is maybe better: 17:01:02 rlwrap zsh -c 'while true; do read a; echo "$a" >>in; clear; done' 17:01:08 has history and stuff 17:01:10 kind of 17:01:23 clear kinda breaks it though. 17:01:23 -!- zuffii has left (?). 17:01:28 wtf. 17:05:54 * zuff writes a tcl clone in ~100 lines 17:06:06 now taking bets on how many lines it'll actually be! 17:07:00 in what language? 17:07:05 c 17:07:06 if it has arbitrary whitespace, exactly 100 17:07:09 so exactly 100 then 17:07:09 lol 17:07:18 http://antirez.com/picol/picol.c.txt here's tcl in 500 lines 17:31:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:40:36 -!- Mony has joined. 17:41:37 plop 17:41:53 * oerjan redemonstrates 17:41:56 +ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 17:41:58 ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ :^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^ ^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^: ...too much output! 17:42:17 oerjan: what program is that? rule 110? 17:42:18 ^ul(Plop !)S 17:42:20 yep 17:42:23 :o 17:42:24 Mony: it needs a space 17:42:28 after the ul 17:42:32 ok 17:42:36 ^ul (Plop !)S 17:42:40 oerjan: what represents the 0 and 1 17:42:47 hum ... 17:42:47 Mony: also, probably you want a + for thutubot 17:42:50 as fungot isn't here atm 17:42:56 ^ = fungot, + = thutubot 17:42:56 : and ^ 17:43:08 internally, !^ and ^ 17:43:12 +ul (^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 17:43:15 ^ : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : ...too much output! 17:43:25 +ul (test)S 17:43:26 test 17:43:26 +ul (:::::::::^:)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 17:43:28 :::::::::^: ::::::::^^: :::::::^^^: ::::::^^:^: :::::^^^^^: ::::^^:::^: :::^^^::^^: ::^^:^:^^^: :^^^^^^^:^: ^^:::::^^^: ^^::::^^:^^ :^ ...too much output! 17:43:28 ok ... 17:44:46 ais523: it prints more if you change it to output 0 and 1, though 17:45:20 for reasons you've already explained as i recall 17:45:59 oerjan: presumably because then it also adds an extra 0 at the left-hand end every step? 17:46:23 ais523: um no because thutubot treats : and ^ as double chars 17:46:44 oh, ofc 17:46:58 I was thinking on the wrong level 17:47:04 yep, thutubot's limit counts : and ^ double 17:47:19 i did the adding 0's at the end instead of wrapping too yesterday, but that doesn't format correctly 17:47:52 (well, i'm trying to cheat with irssi's word wrapping to make things come below each other) 17:48:18 oerjan: why not put literal newlines into the code you send to the channel? 17:48:19 but : and ^ allows using the same input and output format 17:48:26 IIRC that was possible at least in Chatzilla 17:48:37 also, : and ^ are interesting choices for logic levels 17:48:44 how do you convert them to your internal format? 17:49:02 +ul (:::::::::^:)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^aS 17:49:02 (!^!^!^!^!^!^!^!^!^^!^) 17:50:46 irssi ignores newline after ^V escape 17:51:15 does thutubot +ul print newlines correctly if you do that? 17:51:28 it should do, newline's represented as =n internally 17:51:38 I'm not entirely sure what it sends back to the channel as output though 17:52:02 if it sends it raw, there's a problem 17:52:27 could be 17:52:33 you could separate a =n and =r in the program 17:52:42 and get thutubot to do all sorts of evil by making them come together 17:54:03 anyway the version i put on the wiki uses newline 17:55:27 i chose : and ^ because it is one of the few character pairs that can be decoded out of a list of them. i _think_ : and a is also possible because i tried that a while ago but it was darn complicated and i gave up 17:56:03 but then a couple days ago i realied : and ^ would be easier 17:56:12 ah, I see how the decoding would work 17:56:56 i explained it to oklopol the day before yesterday 17:57:37 sorry, I've been really non-Internet-bound over the last few days 17:57:42 huge RL projects 17:57:53 my work paid off though; I got full marks for a recent presentation, which is 75% 17:57:53 ah 17:58:09 I'm thinking about complaining because percentages ought to go up to 100, especially when they affect degree classifications 17:58:10 75% of your grade? 17:58:14 oh 17:58:23 oerjan: 75% of the maximum marks = full marks 17:58:53 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 18:03:24 well congratulations 18:12:05 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 18:12:08 Fuck I hate C. 18:12:32 well the opposite _might_ be even more disturbing 18:12:35 Slereah_: what has it been doing to you? 18:12:46 NOT WORKING >:| 18:12:55 I'm trying to check my random number generator 18:13:03 But generating the distribution is hard. 18:14:37 I get 0 everywhere, except in two places, where I get 49800 and 50200. 18:14:46 (It's a normal distribution) 18:21:35 -!- oklokok has joined. 18:26:15 It is not possible to put literal newlines in an IRC message, because a newline terminates the message. 18:29:15 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:36:16 -!- oklofok has joined. 18:37:00 what's the ghost kill command? 18:37:02 /ghost somthing? 18:37:04 *something 18:37:06 ais523: what project, is it the one you talked about? 18:38:18 /msg nickserv ghost something something 18:38:33 -!- oklopol has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:38:40 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklopol. 18:38:44 thanks 18:38:59 and just fyi i knew that was the syntax. 18:40:58 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:43:18 -!- oklokok has quit (No route to host). 19:23:23 Guys. 19:23:45 Is it possible to take the cable out of the plug of an ethernet cable, and then put it back in 19:23:50 Easily, that is. 19:24:07 I must pass the cable through holes in the wall, and then put the plug back on 19:31:49 1-2 seconds, then the connections drop 19:38:09 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 19:39:17 Slereah_: you need a tool 19:40:13 What would that tool be? 19:40:21 There are many tools in this world. 19:40:34 From the stick to fish out termites to the LHC. 19:46:15 -!- Corun has joined. 19:48:39 -!- Mony has quit ("Hey Hoy let go !"). 19:48:53 -!- Mony has joined. 19:59:53 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird. 20:21:56 Zuff is ehird? :o 20:24:39 yes 20:35:34 yes 20:35:50 no 21:00:30 -!- Slereah- has joined. 21:02:19 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:10:18 how do you all feel about the colour 21:10:20 YELLOW 21:24:26 +ul (()(#))(~:^:S(_)S*a~^~!a~*~:^):^ 21:24:27 #_#_##_###_#####_########_#############_#####################_##################################_####################################################### ...too much output! 21:25:09 hmm 22:00:49 bye 22:01:00 o 22:01:05 polp 22:01:42 -!- Mony has quit ("Hey Hoy let go !"). 22:19:29 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 22:28:39 -!- kar8nga has joined. 23:17:11 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:25:47 -!- oerjan has joined. 2008-12-13: 01:34:25 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 02:10:07 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 03:25:28 -!- olsner has joined. 03:42:31 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 04:04:15 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:19:37 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:27:17 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 04:40:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:22:31 -!- Corun has joined. 06:38:41 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:05:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 08:22:58 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:23:16 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:27:08 -!- Mony has joined. 09:28:47 hi 09:37:28 -!- SirDayBat has joined. 10:39:54 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:19:28 Hi. 11:21:48 salut 12:26:59 So. 12:27:03 Today I am considering installing plan 9. 12:36:00 http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Supported_PC_hardware/index.html It is rather annoying that only chipsets are listed. 12:36:59 No wireless mouse/keyboard. Aight. 12:48:55 -!- Mony has quit ("Hey Hoy let go !"). 12:56:20 have i ever mentioned i have three hands, btw? 13:00:46 no 13:01:25 -!- olsner has joined. 13:09:16 that's probably not very interesting. 13:09:35 oklopol: you would love plan9. it's a programmer's dream 13:09:45 "fuck apis, it's all in the filesystem." 13:15:51 Yo dawg I herd you like functions so we put a function in a function so you can call a function while you call a function 13:16:24 oklopol: you can draw circles. in a window. with a few lines of shell script :- 13:16:24 :-P 13:16:28 using filez 13:44:08 Slereah-: higher-order functions aren't exactly a new idea 13:44:32 ehird: i'm not sure i understand. 13:44:43 nobody understands everything, dawg 13:44:43 oklopol : Why must you ruin a good meme 13:45:35 Slereah-: because i haven't yet acquired my daily energy drinkance. 13:46:03 * ehird burns plan9 disk, considers where his usb mouse/kb is 13:46:11 anyway that would be pretty funny if you had like a higher-order function written in language X in a pic. 13:46:39 easily the funniest instance of that meme 13:46:48 i will soon be in unix heaven 13:47:11 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers6/1225750539403.jpg 13:47:15 Is this good enough? 13:47:47 hmm 13:47:55 you know that effect where a sound seems to get continually lower or higher 13:47:57 but always stays the same? 13:48:04 my cd drive is doing that while burning 13:48:12 Sort of like a slidewhistle? 13:48:54 Burn't. 13:48:56 Like a socialist! 13:49:00 I do not know how that follows. 13:49:14 Time to boot. 13:49:36 Slereah-: yes that's good 13:50:07 hadn't seen dat 13:50:14 or maybe i had 13:50:31 derivation+math isn't as funny as scheme would've been 13:51:04 and also that's nested calls, a higher-order function would be funnier, because you'd have to understand what it does 13:52:46 But nested calls fit the meme to a T! 13:55:00 i'm not sure... i mean g isn't actually, semantically, inside f; we're actually doing function composition there (assuming x is an unbound variable), they are just both "inside" h, because h is their composition 13:55:11 g and f don't know about each other. 13:55:41 a higher-order function would fit it better, but would be harder to understand, making it a better joke. 13:55:54 Then DO IT FAGGOT 13:56:10 :| 13:56:27 i'm only a stand-up theoretician. 13:56:50 heh. 13:58:14 you know i'm the kinda guy who says things others have done are trivial and stupid, but never does anything himself. 13:58:57 i had these ideas for a language that's kinda like J, but the basic unit is a tree, and you have all kinds of searches and traversals as primitives 13:59:21 so you could do something like minimax search for tic-tac-toe with a few chars 13:59:58 so it would be kinda declarative, but all the multiway choices and such would be concrete branchings of the tree you're building lazily 14:00:29 and you'd use different traversals and heuristics to find the goal nodes 14:01:39 also i inherited graphica's graph making scheme, so basically you can name nodes, and nodes with the same name are the same node, even if they are created at different parts of the tree 14:01:53 graphs would have the same traversals, but they'd keep track of alraedy visited nodes 14:02:24 *already 14:02:41 that's all that is public atm, ima buy me some energy 14:02:49 ~~~} 14:24:41 beh, usb kb/mouse aren't working with plan9 14:24:46 wonder why not 14:57:33 mmph 14:59:28 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 15:19:10 http://xrl.us/o3bxa 17:06:35 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:07:24 -!- MizardX has joined. 17:16:52 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:59:29 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:11:13 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 19:00:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:35:05 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:35:24 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:57:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:25:45 -!- oerjan has quit ("Panibus"). 21:49:35 -!- Asztal has joined. 22:22:10 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 22:41:06 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:41:39 -!- MizardX has joined. 22:50:41 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:47:12 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 23:48:35 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 2008-12-14: 00:33:23 -!- oklofok has joined. 00:50:42 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out). 00:59:58 ok, the rc shell is my new favourite imperative scripting language 01:00:01 http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/rc.html 01:05:21 why so 01:05:41 oklofok: it's really really really simple. 01:05:52 i picked it up in like 3 seconds frsrs 01:15:30 it looks pretty simple 01:15:44 (a pretty deep comment, i know!) 01:16:51 Now, on an ordinary computer, the basic memory options available are read from address and write to address, with nothing like copy this address range to this address range, right? 01:17:14 oklofok: also the duff's device guy made it 01:17:19 Warrigal: i guess. 01:17:23 Warrigal: what do you mean basic? 01:17:36 in the os, in the hardware, in the software? 01:17:44 oklofok: in the hardware, I guess. 01:17:56 Warrigal: x86 has stuff like rep 01:18:15 What does rep do? 01:18:30 and io is often done outside the cpu, moving lots of stuff, then doing an interrupt 01:18:38 rep repeats a command until cx =0 01:18:41 *cx = 0 01:19:05 or something like that, i'm really an algorithmician, so take this with a salt of wine. 01:19:34 Is it possible to do a more complex memory option than read-from-address and write-to-address in better asymptotic time than by using those two operations? 01:20:30 better asymptotic time than constant time? 01:20:36 somehow i doubt that. 01:21:00 well, i'm not sure what you mean by "complex memory option" 01:22:28 aaand, also x86 has sse, streaming simd extensions, single instruction multiple data, which i assume has something to do with doing many operations at once, thus allowing, at least as an interface to the programmer, to move a lot of stuff at once. 01:22:33 Something like copying one address range to another, which would take linear time using read-from-address and write-to-address. 01:22:53 That only takes cube root time if your memory is cube-shaped. :-P 01:22:55 i have no idea how x86 shit is actually run... or well, at least not how sse works 01:23:06 Hmm. 01:23:48 but usually x86 turns its complex instructions into a certain kind of microcode, which is more like a risc 01:24:44 * Warrigal nods 01:25:43 trying to make some sense out of the mess. 01:26:03 x86 is no doubt the ugliest thing that ever existed 01:26:12 so, how about the sleep? 01:26:22 yes i think it should come into existance right about now. 01:26:23 -> 01:27:05 <- 01:27:09 and as for running times... 01:27:20 rep usually runs slower than just making an explicit loop 01:27:32 sse, on the other hand, is very fast 01:27:43 so it might be they do some kinda optimization shit. 01:27:46 i should look into that 01:28:05 keep your enemies even closer and all that 01:28:07 -> 01:38:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:41:58 -!- Corun_ has joined. 01:46:51 -!- moozilla has joined. 01:48:18 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 01:48:20 -!- revcompgeek has joined. 01:48:21 -!- metazilla has joined. 01:48:48 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:48:53 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:53:17 -!- revcompgeek has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 01:54:16 -!- revcompgeek has joined. 01:55:12 I just made the page for a language I created recently 01:55:29 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Karma 01:59:17 -!- revcompgeek has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 02:31:56 -!- oklopol has joined. 02:50:23 -!- oklofok has quit (Connection timed out). 03:01:21 -!- oklofok has joined. 03:20:54 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out). 03:23:03 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:23:07 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:24:57 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:48:58 * Warrigal ponders Bloom filters 03:52:59 A 1-mebibit Bloom filter has 2^20 positions, each addressable with 20 bits. A SHA-1 hash is 160 bits, so you can address 8 positions with it. If half of the positions are set (which probably happens once you've put 2^17 to 2^18 things in it), the probability of a false positive is 1 in 2^8. 04:48:55 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:50:28 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:05:53 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:02:17 -!- oklopol has joined. 06:22:26 -!- oklofok has quit (Connection timed out). 07:26:23 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:58:44 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:43:10 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:43:10 -!- Warrigal has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:43:11 -!- thutubot has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:43:11 -!- GregorR has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:43:11 -!- ais523 has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:43:12 -!- oklopol has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:43:12 -!- olsner has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:43:12 -!- pikhq has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:43:12 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:43:12 -!- lifthras1ir has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:43:12 -!- decipher has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:43:13 -!- ehird has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:44:23 -!- ehird has joined. 08:44:23 -!- decipher has joined. 08:44:23 -!- lifthras1ir has joined. 08:44:23 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 08:44:23 -!- pikhq has joined. 08:44:23 -!- olsner has joined. 08:44:23 -!- oklopol has joined. 08:45:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:45:42 -!- Warrigal has joined. 08:49:24 -!- Judofyr has joined. 08:51:26 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 08:51:26 -!- thutubot has joined. 08:51:26 -!- GregorR has joined. 08:57:12 -!- Judofyr has quit. 08:59:37 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Connection timed out). 09:04:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 09:08:18 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 09:09:18 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 09:28:09 -!- Mony has joined. 09:28:58 hi 09:33:37 -!- Dewi has quit ("reboot, brb"). 09:40:48 -!- M0ny has joined. 09:42:08 -!- M0ny has quit (Client Quit). 09:45:47 hi 09:59:10 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:48:48 -!- Dewi has joined. 11:41:12 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 12:14:09 -!- Asztal has joined. 13:00:51 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff. 13:38:15 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:38:53 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:43:15 -!- decipher has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:43:29 -!- decipher has joined. 14:03:10 -!- Mony has joined. 14:03:11 -!- decipher has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:04:01 -!- decipher has joined. 14:38:37 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:41:04 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:46:09 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:22:19 -!- serg has joined. 15:22:24 lo 15:22:33 i study brainfuck! 15:22:33 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:22:38 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:22:55 Got an exam on it this week? 15:23:06 yeahhhhh ) 15:23:35 wanna code sqrt_n(n, num) 15:24:06 i mean root_n(n,num) :) 15:24:22 nibodi has coded it ? 15:24:59 Slereah-: has u ? 15:25:06 You can check here for useful stuff : http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms 15:25:12 I don't do too much Brainfuck. 15:26:37 thx 15:31:37 i think brainfuck can be useful for data compression needs 15:31:49 Slereah-: what do u thinks about? 15:32:42 Slereah-: are there any good optimizers for purposes like printing string of ASCII symbols 15:33:49 -!- serg has changed nick to mrbrain. 15:33:55 -!- mrbrain has changed nick to mr. 15:34:28 -!- mr has changed nick to Guest32275. 15:34:54 -!- Guest32275 has changed nick to mrChlens. 15:36:11 Slereah-: ? 15:36:12 As said, I'm no Brainfuck buff 15:36:31 Slereah-: maybe other langs ? 15:37:03 Depends. 15:37:09 What are you looking for? 15:37:41 want to find applications for skills in brainfucking :D 15:41:39 I think the answer is "none". 15:42:22 there used to be a bot in this channel that could generate programs that print strings (EgoBot?) 15:42:44 Yes there were. 15:42:49 Also another one, no? 15:42:55 Or was it only Underload? 15:43:14 +ul (()(#))(~:^:S(_)S*a~^~!a~*~:^):^ 15:43:16 #_#_##_###_#####_########_#############_#####################_##################################_####################################################### ...too much output! 15:43:19 :D 15:43:34 +bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 15:43:37 No? 15:43:42 it's no brainfuck 15:43:59 underload is way better than brainfuck. 15:43:59 :D 15:44:01 Yes, it's underload 15:44:14 Well, it's less overused. 15:44:14 +bf ab 15:44:21 Also there's a lot of "aSS" in it 15:44:23 protip: use ^bf 15:44:29 except fungot ain't here 15:44:29 I also seem to remember reading that oklopol made a genetic algorithm that functioned like bf_txtgen... possibly 15:44:32 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 15:44:34 ^bf aa 15:44:56 fungot 15:44:57 ain't 15:44:58 here 15:45:07 Also aa isn't BF at all :o 15:45:16 i know 15:45:29 i need bot that generate brainfuck code for my string! 15:45:45 It might be underload, though 15:45:45 and maybe optimize the code 15:45:47 +ul aa 15:45:48 ...a out of stack! 15:45:53 :D 15:45:56 )) 15:46:10 +ul a 15:46:10 ...a out of stack! 15:46:13 http://esolangs.org/wiki/EgoBot has a bf_txtgen command 15:46:16 +ul 1 15:46:19 egobot is dead 15:46:23 long death egobot 15:46:27 ) 15:46:38 mrChlens : http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants 15:46:49 Just for single chars, but can be useful 15:46:51 I imagine it still works, though? (Or at least you could copy the bf_txtgen code) 15:47:04 egobot requires some process serialization module 15:47:09 that works on like one version of the linux kernel 15:47:13 heh 15:47:14 bf_txtgen is in java though 15:48:53 eww :( 15:49:24 Slereah-: your constants don't contain subloops 15:49:29 Asztal: you use microsoft software, you can't complain about java :P 15:49:33 mrChlens: not "his" 15:49:38 yes, well, that's eww too :) 15:49:58 zuff: don't know whose 15:50:04 mrChlens: ours :P 15:50:08 ok 15:50:09 but no, no subloops 15:50:11 so? :P 15:50:28 so it can be less than 20 ops 15:50:38 for big numbers 15:50:44 huh? 15:53:28 what does mean "huh" ? 15:53:36 i don't get what you meant 15:54:23 tit for tat: 15:54:48 (0 = silent, 1 = talk) 15:55:10 echo 1; while() {read a; echo $a} 15:55:20 I don't know why I wrote that either. 15:55:47 um, tft starts with co-operation 15:55:55 oh, oops 15:56:04 heh, trust me to fuck up such a simple program 15:56:05 :D 15:56:06 SimonRC: what does mean "tft" ? 15:56:15 mrChlens: tit for tat algorithm for iterated prisoner's dilemma 15:56:38 SimonRC: what does mean "tit" ? 15:56:55 tit for tat is an english idiom 15:57:11 wikipedia says "equivalent retaliation" as a literal form 15:57:49 zuff: can u say "retaliation" in more simple form? 15:57:58 poor english 15:58:09 don't you have a dictionary? 15:58:13 SimonRC: don't be rude 15:58:15 nope 15:58:22 mrChlens: attack in response to an attack 15:58:28 SimonRC: you're rude ! 15:58:28 mrChlens: ok 15:58:35 mrChlens: sorry 15:58:41 :D 15:58:44 tit for tat == "if you attack in a certain way, i'll attack back" 15:59:00 ok now it's clear 15:59:04 :) 16:00:06 -!- Linus` has joined. 16:09:00 hmm 16:09:08 could you build a cellular automata out of tons of prisoner's dilemmas? 16:10:31 Asztal: yes i did that once, not that it's all that relevant to confirm that. 16:10:53 ? 16:11:43 zuff: long story 16:11:49 did what 16:12:08 bf txtgen with a genetic algo 16:12:22 ah 16:35:01 wow. I am really bored. 16:35:17 I saw a prisoner's dilemma cellular automaton. 16:39:10 -!- fungot has joined. 16:39:12 Whoops. 16:39:19 hey fiz 16:39:21 fizzie: 16:40:55 fizzie: brought fungot here by accident? 16:40:55 oklopol: any idea why? might this be accomplished?) can be invaluable. could be funny. :) anyways, i meant ( use dbm.gdbm) or ( type a) a 16:41:24 fungot: i was really hoping fizzie would answer, not you 16:41:25 oklopol: some kind of attached fnord feels useful. it works, but if main() were a bigger function that was passed to the fold-function. she's been fnord :) just don't like tdd because it makes proofs easier 16:41:32 also you aren't really answering 16:41:33 oklopol: No, the "whoops" was more of a "whoops, fungot's not here" thing. 16:41:34 fizzie: conversely, if you start with a database query dsl, never needed macros for it. 16:41:38 just asking more questions 16:41:48 fizzie: he was joking :P 16:42:07 i was half joking, half lying 16:42:35 * zuff ponders. 16:43:26 oooooooooooooo 16:43:55 I wonder what a good fungot-esque source text would be. 16:43:56 zuff: and nand x nor x too! :p) then performed operations on it, possibly ever, and yet, at least for some platforms an extension library for an app 16:54:49 -!- mrChlens has quit (Connection timed out). 16:55:09 -!- mrChlens has joined. 16:56:20 -!- Judofyr has quit. 17:01:00 Slereah-: this is more like it http://jonex.info/dump/yolisp.jpg 17:02:26 :D 17:24:18 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:40:32 -!- mrChlens has changed nick to serg. 17:42:26 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:49:55 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:51:39 http://www.imagebam.com/image/298ad120881820 17:51:41 )) 18:04:28 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:12:22 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:20:27 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:29:33 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 18:30:47 -!- Linus` has quit (No route to host). 19:59:40 -!- Linus` has joined. 20:22:21 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:29:29 -!- Asztal has quit ("."). 21:17:55 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:25:36 -!- serg has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:43:13 -!- serg has joined. 21:47:19 What's wrong with that?N 21:47:21 ft2=fopen("energie.txt", "wt"); 21:47:38 Compiler tells me : no match for 'operator=' in 'ft2 = fopen(((const char*)"energie.txt"), ((const char*)"wt"))' 21:48:12 Slereah-: type mismatch 21:48:24 ft2 has wrong type 21:48:45 Well, it's declared in FILE* ft1,ft2,ft3,ft4; 21:49:39 headers ? 21:49:49 wat? 21:50:08 #include's 21:50:59 Oh. 21:51:08 #include 21:51:08 #include 21:51:38 is your program in C++ ? 21:52:13 The compiler is C++, yeah. 21:52:53 Slereah-: FILE* ft1,*ft2,*ft3,*ft4; 21:53:28 In C/C++ you have to give the pointer/array types for each one, only the base type is shared 21:54:24 And if you insist on declaring multiple pointers in the same declaration, it might make sense write it as "FILE *ft1, *ft2, *ft3, *ft4;" to be more clear. 21:56:37 ... oh 21:56:44 I thought the * was for FILE 21:57:00 They don't teach us much stuff. 21:58:06 Fuck. 21:58:09 Squares everywhere. 21:58:13 That's not a good sign. 21:59:19 fprintf(ft1,"%e,", vmoy()); <- why would there be squares everywhere with that? 21:59:30 I tried vmoy, it works good. 22:08:19 And vmoy() returns a double? 22:08:41 Yes it does. 22:08:56 -!- serg has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:09:34 -!- serg has joined. 22:25:07 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:33:07 (No ideas?) 22:50:27 -!- Linus` has quit ("Puzzi. Sì, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 22:50:53 Nothing based on that one line of code; it should print out a number and a comma to the fopen'd file in ft1 just fine. 22:51:45 I tried with %f, it works 22:52:00 Which is weird considering it's supposed to be a double 22:57:49 * Warrigal reads about LISP and its special artificial intelligence capabilities 22:58:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:01:27 -!- jix has joined. 23:03:40 Warrigal: it has none. it's just symbolic processing 23:03:54 I was exaggerating. 23:04:15 Looks like evaluating (A B C D E ...) generally evaluates B, C, D, E, ..., then applies A to the results. 23:04:18 Well, it's TC, it should be able to do it! 23:04:39 Warrigal: unless A is a macro / special form 23:05:59 What if A is a list? 23:06:09 that's an error. 23:06:13 yep 23:06:31 actually, in scheme the list is evaluated 23:06:37 as an expression 23:06:41 well, duh 23:06:42 but then it errors 23:06:43 :P 23:06:50 not if the result is a function 23:06:50 So in "evaluates B, C, D, E, ...", I should have put A in there as well. 23:06:57 oerjan: lists are not functions 23:07:02 Warrigal: for scheme, not common lisp 23:07:03 oh 23:07:04 right 23:07:04 i see 23:07:07 dur, sorry 23:07:09 Okay. 23:07:13 zuff: i meant a literal list 23:07:17 right 23:07:18 ((lambda (x) (* x x)) 3) 23:07:49 yes 23:08:05 scheme is cleaner in that way, doesn't treat the first argument more specially than it has to 23:08:20 s/argument/list element/ 23:08:48 "car" 23:08:48 :P 23:09:00 Lispers against the unethical treatment of cars 23:09:21 "each list was a separate object that could be altered independently of other lists and could be distinguished from other lists by comparison operators." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LISP 23:09:29 and? 23:09:31 I find that really scary. 23:09:35 umm why 23:09:55 mutable lists are a bit scary 23:10:05 Mutability is scary. 23:10:06 well yeah but nobody uses them :P 23:10:19 Warrigal: lisp isn't purely functional 23:10:20 for functional programming you want immutability to be the default 23:11:21 I can tell you that mathematical expressions are essentially purely functional, and natural languages like English approximate being purely functional. 23:11:46 "I eat the cat." 23:12:43 fungot: long time no see 23:12:44 oerjan: i know i often fnord and plugs his mouse to have more endurance than men. 23:13:20 ... 23:13:26 fizzie: is this the "kinky" database 23:13:31 ^ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 23:13:32 ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ :^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^ ^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^:^^^^^ :^^^:^^^:^^^^^::^^^^^:^::::^^^^^:::^^^^^:::: ^^:^^^:^^^:::^:^^:::^^^:::^^:::^::^^:::^:::: ^^^^:^^^:^::^^^^^::^^:^::^^^::^^:^^^::^^:::^ :::^^^:^^^:^^:::^:^^^^^:^^:^:^^^^^:^:^^^::^^ ::^^:^^^: ...too much output! 23:14:15 nice fungot, doesn't treat chars as double 23:14:15 oerjan: not the other way around. does that matter 23:14:16 Could one person do some sort of double quine? 23:14:41 +ul (^ul (test)S)S 23:14:41 ^ul (test)S 23:14:47 apparently not 23:14:49 olsner: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7jeyz/please_for_the_love_of_guido_stop_using/c06tkyj nice trolling 23:14:52 Like ^ul [stuff] generates +bf [things], which generates ^ul [stuff] 23:14:55 fungot still ignores thutubot 23:14:56 oerjan: and support is a little too much stuff :p anything in the database 23:15:01 yeah, fizzie, unignore our bots 23:15:02 :< 23:15:24 ^style 23:15:25 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 23:16:26 zuff: There Is No Cabal 23:18:07 dear audio software; please cease your fetish with real-looking interfaces with knobs and wires and metal and shit. 23:18:11 Slereah-: also double quines with ul at both ends are easier 23:18:46 Well, that would be a simple quine, no? 23:19:04 It just generates itself 23:19:09 Slereah-: not necessarily, you have to change between +ul and ^ul 23:19:25 and you could do other changes too 23:19:25 ^style agora 23:19:26 Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical) 23:20:08 fungot, what is the airspeed velocity of the convective derivative of the position relative to the position of the air of an unladen swallow? 23:20:08 Warrigal: conforming with the rules 23:20:12 Oh. 23:20:14 fungot, you're boring. 23:20:15 Warrigal: each active player highest in the context of the rule with the same 23:20:51 -!- oklofok has joined. 23:20:53 fungot, can you tell me how to be as smart as you? 23:20:54 Warrigal: if a trial judge finds the crime of misrepresentation. all 23:21:06 I love Agora. 23:21:45 ^ul ((^ul )(+ul ))(~:aS^:Sa~a*S:aSS)~:aS^:Sa~a*S:aSS 23:21:45 ((^ul )(+ul ))+ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:aS^:Sa~a*S:aSS)~:aS^:Sa~a*S:aSS 23:21:49 bah 23:22:50 ^ul ((^ul )(+ul ))(~^:Sa~a*:S:aSS)~^:Sa~a*:S:aSS 23:22:50 +ul (+ul )(^ul )((+ul )(^ul ))(+ul )(^ul ) 23:23:02 ^ul ((^ul )(+ul ))(~^:Sa~a*:aS:aSS)~^:Sa~a*:S:aSS 23:23:03 +ul (+ul )(^ul )((+ul )(^ul ))(+ul )(^ul ) 23:23:07 :D 23:23:13 good grief 23:24:21 +ul (+ul )(:SaS:aS~aSS)(^ul ):SaS:aS~aSS 23:24:22 ^ul (^ul )(:SaS:aS~aSS)(+ul ):SaS:aS~aSS 23:24:33 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:24:40 ^ul (^ul )(:SaS:aS~aSS)(+ul ):SaS:aS~aSS 23:24:41 +ul (+ul )(:SaS:aS~aSS)(^ul ):SaS:aS~aSS 23:24:41 ^ul (^ul )(:SaS:aS~aSS)(+ul ):SaS:aS~aSS 23:25:02 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^ 23:25:02 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^ 23:25:03 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^ 23:25:10 I did that quite a long time ago. 23:25:14 fizzie: plz make fungot <3 thutubot 23:25:14 zuff: the effect of altering the texts of rules, 23:25:27 Why? We'd have a bot-loop in just a couple of seconds. 23:25:45 fizzie: just make it stop at 5 lines 23:25:47 like it used to 23:26:07 I've never had a working flow-protection like that for non-chat stuff. 23:26:14 well add it 23:26:14 :P 23:26:24 I'll consider it, but not today. 23:29:54 serg: you can do the text generation of egobot by hand too, you just don't get the automatic optimization. 23:30:18 ok it's a lot of work 23:31:29 but the format is +++++[>++++++>+++>++++++>+++<<<<-]+.>---.etc. where the loop sets up values near the ones you want to print out and the rest just moves between, incrementing and decrementing a little 23:33:59 ^bf ++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++++++++>++++++++++++++<<<-]>.>+++++.>---..+++. 23:33:59 Hemmp 23:34:03 oops 23:34:09 ^bf ++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++++++++>++++++++++++++<<<-]>.>+++++.>----..+++. 23:34:09 Hello 23:34:17 * Warrigal makes sure there isn't a guy named serg who's on his ignore list 23:34:43 nah probably sleeping 23:34:46 There is a guy named serg, but not on my ignore list. 23:35:05 Warrigal: he asked that question before i entered 23:52:43 * zuff plays around with Propellerhead Reason. http://filebin.ca/gnyobd/durmz.aiff 23:58:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 2008-12-15: 00:01:31 :) 00:08:33 * zuff is bored, yeah. 00:09:31 zuff: a gnaff fnord befugle gnip gnop griffleing fnerb 00:09:42 I see. 00:09:45 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 00:14:22 Warrigal: rate my boredity. 00:14:45 on a scale from borgle to fnord 00:14:56 yes. 00:14:56 From borgle to what? 00:15:01 to 00:15:16 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 00:15:31 Aw, zuff is wise to us now :( 00:15:36 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:15:39 Maybe we should try something elsde 00:15:42 Hey, oerjan. 00:15:50 hey, Slereah- 00:15:59 I accidentaly a coca cola bottle :( 00:16:09 the WHOLE coca cola bottle? 00:16:15 http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ 00:16:17 Yeah dude. 00:16:23 Warrigal : Old :o 00:16:28 Aww. 00:17:03 A true skeptic's annotated bible would be all annotations. 00:17:28 recursive ones. 00:17:52 I can prove that there is no god 00:18:00 But the proof can't fit in the margins 00:19:17 or in the universe 00:20:41 * zuff tries to stop listening to http://filebin.ca/gnyobd/durmz.aiff on repeat, to no avail 00:28:44 do not listen to it, for it is like tvtropes in the annoyingly-inescapable sense 00:29:00 I doubt it 00:29:06 And to prove it, I will listen to it 00:29:12 good night 00:29:18 Slereah-: nice to have known you 00:29:31 Meh. 00:29:36 -!- Mony has quit ("Mouarf...."). 00:29:40 It's bland and vaguely annoying. 00:30:03 I'll put something with a bit more kick. 00:31:32 Slereah-: It's vaguely annoying if you listen to it 500 times in a row 00:31:50 One time was enough for me. 00:31:52 My boredom is eating me from the inside 00:32:03 My super intelligence can tire of things much more faster. 00:32:53 zuff : http://uploads.ungrounded.net/161000/161181_ddautta_mask__550x281_.swf 00:33:00 Now there's something addictive. 01:05:56 I don't find LISP satisfactory. I want a language that can be run efficiently that's based on rewriting. 01:06:28 Have they discovered a way to compile efficient programs from Thue yet? 01:15:51 To make an efficient interpreter interpreter for Thue, it needs to keep track of all possible candidate substitutions. For each subtitution, it needs to quickly determine the next set of candidate substitutions. 01:16:38 I said compile. 01:19:42 Compiling a substitution language means coupling a substitution engine with some data-structure representing the rule-set. It wouldn't be any quicker than an iterpreter after it has loaded. 01:21:34 Ouch. 01:21:47 Let's compile subleq, then. 01:22:01 Into a self-modifying destination, of course. 01:24:52 it seems to me that for both languages the problem is pathological cases. you could try to analyze the program to find limitations on its behavior, but if there was just one case where the compiler couldn't prove decent behavior it would become forced to use an interpreter on the original data structure. 01:25:42 for the entire program. say if there was just one pointer in subleq for which nothing could be said about what values it would take 01:26:20 then that could modify _anything_, ruining all other assumptions, and forcing a full simulation of subleq memory and cpu 01:27:17 you might still do something like befunge compilers though, which recompile whenever something unexpectedly changes. 01:27:38 but then you would need to bundle the compiler itself. 01:47:14 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:20:30 x86 and such are self-modifying, aren't they? 02:21:03 given the right memory page settings 02:22:29 Seems it shouldn't be difficult to translate subleq into any self-modifying assembly language. 02:22:46 Even if your assembly language isn't self-modifying, the interpreter can be tiny. 02:23:14 as long as you don't demant unbounded cells 02:23:28 but it's the RAM not the language that makes it easy... 02:25:08 *demand 02:26:56 direct compilation can still be hard. note that each instruction contains three cells and there is nothing requiring jumps to be properly aligned ... 02:27:55 so each subleq cell must in principle be prepared to be (1) modified by address (2) used as _any_ part of an instruction 02:30:13 * Warrigal nods 02:34:48 I think I want to write a relatively convenient language that can be easily compiled into subleq. 02:35:06 Or compile an existing language into subleq. 02:35:26 C is The Programming Language, isn't it? 02:36:40 subleq is a bare-bones machine code, but it still contains in principle all that makes machine code easy to compile into 02:37:54 well minus any actual IO 02:42:46 Implementing multiplication might be interesting. 02:42:59 Everything else, too. 02:44:07 the 6502/6510 chips had no multiplication 02:44:20 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:45:03 Implementing floating point arithmetic would be *really* interesting. 03:25:30 -!- Corun_ has changed nick to Corun. 04:07:17 Warrigal: That's a common exercise in university cources on assembly programming... though in some more common machine-language. 04:08:18 does take some extra effort with only one arithmetic operation 04:30:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:32:16 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:33:04 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:33:45 -!- MizardX has joined. 05:36:11 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:50:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:05:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 06:05:40 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:06:06 zuff: :) 06:11:05 subleq is fun 06:21:40 -!- jix has joined. 06:24:32 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:13:18 -!- jix has joined. 08:33:08 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 08:37:37 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 09:25:27 -!- serg has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 09:50:04 -!- Asztal has joined. 10:23:14 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:24:05 -!- Asztal has joined. 10:58:48 -!- Mony has joined. 11:00:42 hi 11:01:10 pl0p and good morning 11:20:44 heh 11:20:52 that sounds reversed 11:25:07 -!- jix has joined. 11:39:39 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 12:15:48 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:36:07 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:12:12 -!- jix has joined. 13:18:56 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:36:03 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:41:24 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird. 14:13:41 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff. 14:21:01 -!- jix has joined. 14:38:59 -!- AnMaster has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:38:59 -!- rodgort has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:39:34 -!- rodgort has joined. 14:42:12 -!- AnMaster has joined. 16:15:41 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:28:45 ais523, hi! 16:28:53 hi 16:29:04 ais523, how goes stuff? 16:29:13 I was working on gcc-bf again last night 16:29:20 nice 16:29:23 not only does it now have a build system, it has a rerunnable build system 16:29:30 i.e. you can do incremental compiles to some extent 16:29:33 sort of make-style 16:29:41 although atm you have to tell it what you modified by hand 16:30:18 heh 16:30:25 very nice 16:30:41 also, it's now reached the stage where it's producing partial output 16:30:43 ais523, can I get a patch against your last release to avoid re-downloading it all? 16:30:56 ais523, partial output meaning hello world works or? 16:31:07 partial output means something's coming out the end which is recognisable as BF 16:31:08 but it has gaps in 16:31:13 places where there's nothing but should be something 16:31:22 ah missing routines and such? 16:31:24 yes 16:31:28 Ode to python: 16:31:30 Oh, Python, 16:31:31 ais523, such as? 16:31:33 You will not build, 16:31:34 With readline, 16:31:35 bitshifts, multiplication, and some types of loop 16:31:37 Fuck you Python. 16:31:55 there are other unimplemented things like division, but hello world doesn't need that 16:31:57 zuff, what version of python? 16:32:02 just one multiply by 92 for some utterly unknown reason 16:32:09 2.6.1. There's no OS X binary that I can find. 16:32:13 my guess is it's the length of some struct that's relevant to the printing code 16:32:26 zuff, searched their bug tracker? 16:32:33 AnMaster: it's not a python bug. 16:32:45 oh? 16:32:48 readline bug then? 16:33:08 ais523, ah right 16:33:13 no, it's just that I can't figure out what auto*hell incantations I need to make it find the custom readline I have installed. 16:33:29 maybe i'll switch to plan9 and write my own language. with unicorns. 16:33:49 ais523, maybe you should optimize puts() of a constant string in some strange way into the fastest bf variant, something to do in the future 16:33:58 iirc gcc got some __builtin_is_const 16:33:59 or such 16:34:37 zuff, hm this may be some obvious joke, but... why unicorns? 16:34:38 AnMaster: I'll have a library for unstdio'd IO 16:34:47 that isn't standard C 16:34:52 AnMaster: unicorns build programs without autotools. 16:35:07 the problem is, for instance, that puts("Hello, world!") shouldn't output immediately if someone's switched stdout to block-buffered 16:35:16 interesting zuff 16:35:18 or they might have redirected it to a file using freopen, for instance 16:36:04 Ode to Python: Python, you suck, because you use autotools, please fix your build system, or I will shoot whoever made it use autotools. 16:36:22 Hey 16:36:28 Don't diss python 16:36:33 ais523, hrrm, I was thinking something like: #define puts(_s) do { __builtin_is_const(_s) { bf variant; } else { __slow_puts(_s); } while(0); 16:36:34 hoy 16:36:36 Slereah-: autotools. 16:36:37 Don't make me come out of the vase! 16:36:37 i prefer boa 16:36:40 you do not know of such things. 16:36:42 err there are some unbalanced } there 16:36:43 but anyway 16:36:45 you get the idea 16:36:56 Boa is just an GUI for python, no? 16:37:11 AnMaster: doesn't work, puts doesn't always aim to stdout 16:37:14 ais523, iirc system headers sometimes do stuff like that when gcc is aware of it can constant fold stuff. math.h iirc 16:37:19 well, the outside stdout 16:37:29 ais523, ah hm 16:37:29 also, imagine this: printf("Hello, "); puts("world!"); 16:37:29 ok 16:37:36 surely, the hello should come first? 16:37:43 ais523, well you would need to flush first yes 16:37:43 with your optimisation, the world would come first 16:38:01 AnMaster: but that's incorrect too, in theory 16:38:07 I'm aiming to model C semantics perfectly with gcc-bf 16:38:16 probably I'll have puts, which is the slow version 16:38:18 ais523, hm, wouldn't the newline that puts() add cause a flush anyway? 16:38:21 and __bf_puts if you really want it fast 16:38:31 AnMaster: by default, but stdout might be block-buffered at the time 16:38:36 ah yes 16:38:51 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:39:00 ais523, btw I never bothered to check that, how do you change buffering on stdout/stdin 16:39:16 setvbuf, IIRC 16:39:17 let me check 16:39:40 ah yes 16:39:41 indeed 16:41:30 Failed to find the necessary bits to build these modules: 16:41:30 bsddb185 gdbm linuxaudiodev 16:41:31 ossaudiodev readline spwd 16:41:33 sunaudiodev 16:41:35 DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE 16:41:48 R O T I N H E L L 16:42:30 zuff, looked at --help and/or --help=recursive 16:42:38 in case it uses nested configure scripts 16:42:42 It doesn't. 16:42:48 hm ok 16:42:58 time to read configure.ac then 16:42:59 :/ 16:43:06 or put those in some PATH or such 16:43:10 does it use pkgconfig? 16:43:18 No, time to try the other optio 16:43:19 n 16:43:29 and that option is? 16:43:36 (defining CPPFLAGS/LDFLAGS on ./configure with the right paths) 16:44:06 hm yeah, risky however, it could break modules not expecting those to be defined that way I guess 16:44:06 % CPPFLAGS="-I/opt/local/include/" LDFLAGS="-L/opt/local/lib/" ./configure --enable-framework 16:44:11 AnMaster: um, how? 16:44:23 zuff, if the wrong header is selected for something 16:44:32 it won't be. 16:44:33 in the unlikely case that they collide 16:44:38 in names 16:44:48 /opt/local is just like /usr/local. 16:44:51 except for MacPorts. 16:44:54 zuff, also shouldn't that LDFLAGS be LIBS? 16:45:01 not sure, I have seen both systems 16:45:10 ./configure --help says LDFLAGS. 16:45:16 right 16:45:22 oh about macports, can't you install python that way? 16:45:34 yes. but it doesn't have 2.6.1, I think. 16:45:48 also, I'm installing it as an OS X framework so I can use gui apps in a non-x11 manner. 16:45:56 and /opt/local/Library/Frameworks is just Weird(TM) 16:45:56 why do you need that version in particular, anyway? 16:46:07 especially given version 3's out now 16:46:13 ais523: version 3 is not ready for production use 16:46:16 as it breaks compatibility 16:46:17 ah right, if it is based on freebsd ports it should be easy to change the port, just a version number variable or so 16:46:28 I could use 3.0 if I was a hermit and wrote all my own libraries, sure. 16:46:30 But I'm not. 16:46:37 zuff: version 2 of Python is not ready for production use as it breaks compatibility with v3 16:46:44 "the libraries haven't been written yet" is an acceptable reason 16:46:51 but it isn't the same one as "not ready for production use" 16:46:51 ais523: all python code in the wild is v2 16:46:55 which implies buggy 16:47:02 no, it implies unusable for production use 16:47:06 because production apps use libraries. 16:47:12 not all of them! 16:47:20 Python ones do. 16:47:35 a python program not using libraries is called a trivial python program 16:49:21 ais523, I looked at htons, which I remembered used some constant trick, it was a wrapper for this function it turned out: http://rafb.net/p/eZYXTk50.html 16:49:22 Now taking bets as to whether it will work or not. 16:49:30 quite interesting use of GCC specific bits 16:49:32 IS THE LOVE MACHINE 9000 TRIVIAL? :o 16:49:43 Slereah-: yes. 16:49:46 I guess it is. 16:49:56 AnMaster: I vomited. 16:49:57 But it's the only machine that can love. 16:50:07 AnMaster: constant specific tricks are fine IMO for libraries aimed at a specific compiler to use, which is what mine are 16:50:09 hi all you :) 16:50:17 hi oklofok 16:50:19 I mean, there's an extern void __brkpos; buried in the code to gcc-bf 16:50:19 zuff, so did I, yet it is very elegant in a odd kind of way 16:50:21 Hey dude 16:50:29 zuff, like, say, intercal syslib 16:50:30 AnMaster: you owe me a new keyboard 16:50:32 OTOH, they mustn't change the semantics of the language 16:50:35 that is where I expect to find it 16:50:42 however this was in /usr/include/gentoo-multilib/amd64/bits/byteswap.h 16:50:46 Failed to find the necessary bits to build these modules: 16:50:47 bsddb185 linuxaudiodev ossaudiodev 16:50:48 spwd sunaudiodev 16:50:50 YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS 16:50:59 dear god YES 16:51:05 zuff, spwd? 16:51:14 /etc/shadow access, apparently. 16:51:21 ah 16:51:22 % ls /etc/shadow 16:51:22 ls: cannot access /etc/shadow: No such file or directory 16:51:28 right os x 16:51:30 :P 16:51:34 * zuff make install 16:51:38 anyway, the intended use of __builtin_constant is to be able to implement something inline if it could be constant-folded, and to use a function if it couldnt' 16:51:47 ais523, indeed 16:51:52 say if it's a massively big complicated expression, you might not want to inline it everywhere 16:51:57 ais523, and it may sometimes give false negative 16:51:59 http://rafb.net/p/eZYXTk50.html <<< i can't read this without exploding 16:52:03 but if it can be constant-folded, you won't lose anything for inlining 16:52:05 what does it do 16:52:09 I remember reading that a change in last gcc broke kernel due to that 16:52:13 because kernel misused it 16:52:16 in the wrong way 16:52:16 I really think it would be beneficial for you if I listed every single file in the distribution as I copy them over. That would be helpful. Scrollback? What's that? 16:52:28 AnMaster: instead of misusing it in the right way? 16:52:42 zuff: it isn't misuse if it's only used as an optimisation hint 16:52:44 zuff, something like that yes :P 16:52:50 correct code produces the same result regardless of its return value 16:52:50 fuck yessssssss it installed 16:53:03 my life is worthwhile 16:53:11 just you design the code to be faster or better in some other way depending on whether the return value is true or fals 16:53:13 *false 16:53:21 * zuff installs pip to avoid the easy_install horror of his preivous install 16:53:47 ais523, http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0811.3/00131.html 16:53:50 that seems to be it 16:54:09 Safari, I know I have 100 tabs open, but please don't be slow. 16:54:10 :P 16:54:18 Safari? 16:54:24 ais523, OS X browser 16:54:26 oh, you're using OSX, it actually works there 16:54:29 heh 16:54:34 haha 16:54:34 apple are awful at making windows software :P 16:54:38 (/me has heard horror stories about Safari for Windows) 16:54:46 ais523: it uses OS X's text rendering 16:54:49 from what I can tell 16:54:53 it even renders buttons OS X style 16:54:54 zuff, do you mean safari is slow with 100 tabs? 16:54:57 also, Safari has massive security bugs in Windows 16:54:58 i think they ported the widget set 16:55:02 or did last I heard 16:55:10 AnMaster: with only 1gb of ram, and pages with shitty flash ads and crap, ye 16:55:10 s 16:55:11 if yes, is there any other browser that isn't slow with that many tabs? 16:55:15 like the carpet-bomb bug 16:55:16 and no 16:55:24 firefox is memory leak deluxe 16:55:40 zuff, I don't know about safari, but for firefox there is adblock and such, I assume something similar exists for safari 16:55:52 should be able to block flash unless you allow it 16:56:05 AnMaster: that link's relevant, http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=36359 is more useful to find out about what happened though 16:56:06 or I could close tabs that I'll never use again 16:56:08 I need a tab GC 16:56:22 M-x kill-some-buffers, Safari-style? 16:56:24 right now when my tabs hit their limit I just restart the program 16:56:24 ais523, right, I just did a quick google 16:56:33 so what I need is a simple algorithm I can do manually to gc tabs :P 16:56:38 although kill-some-buffers just prompts you for everything that you have open 16:56:49 ais523: haha, imagine an interp doing that 16:56:55 "Do you want to free this object? It has 4 references." 16:57:00 haha 16:57:11 ais523, kill-all-buffers then? 16:57:21 if that exists 16:57:26 kill-all-buffers would be ridiculous if it existed 16:57:30 you may as well just restart Emacs 16:57:31 ais523, oh? 16:57:44 kill-all-abbrevs 16:57:46 wtf is that? 16:57:59 [ehird:~] % python 16:57:59 Python 2.6.1 (r261:67515, Dec 15 2008, 16:48:17) 16:58:00 [GCC 4.0.1 (Apple Computer, Inc. build 5363)] on darwin 16:58:02 success 16:58:04 what is an abbrev in emacs, it sometimes asked me if I wanted to save them 16:58:10 but *shrug* no idea what they are 16:58:17 kill-all-humans 16:58:19 zuff, that gcc is quite old heh 16:58:29 AnMaster: when you turn on abbrev minor mode, certain things expand when you type space 16:58:32 AnMaster: I'm pretty sure it's not GPL3, either. :P 16:58:34 intercal-mode uses it by default 16:58:42 does the goodness/badness of those two cancel each other out? 16:58:43 so you type ab and get ABSTAIN, for instance 16:58:46 ais523, um, some form of code completion? 16:58:48 yes 16:58:54 completion on space, to be precise 16:58:55 ais523, how flexible is it? 16:59:07 you can script what abbreviations expand to 16:59:08 Does that mean, that if someone lends you, say m20, and you already have m10, you can destroy m30 (m20 of which is THEIR money, remember), without their consultation? 16:59:12 oops 16:59:14 wrong channel 16:59:27 ais523, dynamically generated lists? like code completion in a modern IDE 16:59:28 ? 16:59:34 e.g. doab expands to DO ABSTAIN 3/4 of the time, PLEASE DO ABSTAIN 1/4 of the time 16:59:44 AnMaster: it has to be set up by the major mode or by something else 16:59:54 I don't know of any modes with dynamically generated lists for abbrev-mode 17:00:05 although VHDL-mode uses dynamically generated lists for tab-complete 17:00:07 with context sensitive parameter docs shown 17:00:13 which is the same thing just expanding on a different keypress 17:00:20 also pop up menus when several alternatives exist 17:00:21 no context sensitive param docs there yet though 17:00:25 although there's no reason why not 17:00:30 ais523, Kdevelop has it 17:00:36 a bit buggy though in my experience 17:00:52 modelled after one thing microsoft actually got right: intellisense 17:00:52 and it tab-completes cmd-style, i.e. guesses which one you want heuristically and you can press tab more times to get other options 17:01:08 Whee, IDLE works! 17:01:28 * zuff installs pip 17:01:34 How do you know it works? 17:01:38 AnMaster: I tested it. 17:01:44 SOMETIMES THAT HELPS :D 17:01:48 you could argue working is not being idle! 17:01:53 ;P 17:02:01 AnMaster: please, leave the puns to oerjan 17:02:06 you might be held responsible if I go on a shooting spree 17:02:25 actually, that was a good pun 17:02:25 zuff, I have decided to specialize in truly bad jokes on irc 17:02:37 ais523, ouch, really? :/ 17:02:38 actually good, as opposed to less-bad 17:02:43 AnMaster: thanks, now I have a plea of insanity 17:02:47 see you suckers in hell 17:02:51 * zuff shooting people -> 17:03:01 ais523, oh I guess it overflowed the range then 17:03:02 * zuff to death -> 17:03:04 downwards 17:03:19 zuff: if IRC makes you so suicidal, yuu could always try not being in IRC 17:03:29 and yes, traditionally in English there are no good puns, only bad puns and worse puns 17:03:36 ais523: homicidal too! 17:03:38 but I actually think good puns are possible, and rather like them 17:03:41 fun for all the family! 17:04:12 ais523, the worst kind is mixing English and Swedish so that you have to go back and forth between English and Swedish a few times 17:04:33 * zuff wonders why .bash_profile has his .profile stuff and runs when zsh does 17:04:38 my shell setup is weird 17:04:46 AnMaster: so only a bilingual person would get the pun, and even then only when you explained it? 17:05:51 ais523, well yeah. It was a joke based on the "nick name" of a law some time ago, and pedestrians, the law was about car drivers having to stop to let pedestrians over at crossings (right word?) without any traffic lights 17:06:25 due to the white stripes of crossings, on the black asphalt it was known as "the zebra law" 17:06:43 * AnMaster tries to remember how the joke began 17:06:54 hrrm 17:07:09 AnMaster: "zebra crossing" is the official English name for that sort of crossing, we have them in the UK too 17:07:52 ais523, anyway the joke was based on some Swedish word sounding similar to "pedestrian", but meaning something else 17:08:04 and then translating back and forth twice 17:08:06 or so 17:08:23 reaching the conclusion that it meant zebra 17:10:05 AnMaster: I think the only resolution for this is for you to repent to god by sacrificing a goat. 17:10:13 Otherwise your punishment in the afterlife will be grave indeed. 17:10:18 zuff, tricky, I'm not religious 17:10:28 rather I'm an atheist 17:10:28 zuff: ARGH 17:10:32 AnMaster: become religious 17:10:36 or you shall suffer 17:10:43 I recommend scientology! 17:10:52 AnMaster: then it will be _just_ grave 17:10:59 oerjan: ... 17:11:01 AHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA 17:11:10 zuff, then I would select Buddhism, which IMO, is probably one of the more sane religions 17:11:10 i hate you oerjan 17:11:21 AnMaster: no. it must be scientology. otherwise it won't work. 17:11:26 trust me on this. 17:11:41 why on earth should I trust you? 17:11:46 i am l ron hubbard 17:11:50 who? 17:12:06 science fiction writer. 17:12:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard 17:13:05 "Died January 24, 1986 (aged 74)" 17:13:07 err 17:13:10 right, whatever 17:13:19 [[who devised a self-help technique called Dianetics and philosophy known as Scientology,]] 17:13:26 yes I saw that too 17:13:27 you see what that was? 17:13:30 that was a joke there. 17:13:36 17:11 zuff: AnMaster: no. it must be scientology. otherwise it won't work. 17:13:36 17:11 zuff: trust me on this. 17:13:37 zuff, yes I saw that 17:13:37 indeed 17:13:37 17:11 AnMaster: why on earth should I trust you? 17:13:39 17:11 zuff: i am l ron hubbard 17:13:40 .... 17:13:42 17:11 AnMaster: who? 17:13:43 17:12 zuff: science fiction writer. 17:13:45 humour. 17:13:48 now you're getting the hang of it. 17:13:49 I just choose not to comment it 17:13:50 ............. 17:13:54 ....................................................................... 17:13:59 because I considered it a rather bad case of humor 17:14:02 ............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... 17:14:03 zuff: I see the metajoke there 17:14:04 ................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................ 17:14:05 as in: not very funny 17:14:08 even if nobody else does 17:14:11 ais523: not even I! 17:14:13 although I agree the original joke wasn't funny 17:16:24 the jury is still out on which is worse, dianetics or diabetics 17:16:46 oerjan: wow 17:16:50 you are pioneering "serious puns" 17:18:02 I forget what spurred me to update Python now. I guess I have to invent something that uses Python. 17:18:46 zuff: probably its immense user-friendliness and ease of installation. 17:19:11 wat 17:20:10 angkor 17:20:34 wattage 17:20:48 ais523: oerjan: oklofok: time for a game of one-letterism! 17:20:48 x 17:20:55 y 17:20:56 % 17:21:00 ¶ 17:21:01 whoops, typo 17:21:03 I meant Z 17:21:05 ha 17:21:05 i win 17:21:06 ö 17:21:12 Ë€ 17:21:15 r 17:21:21 u 17:21:24 A23456789, I Cripple zuff's win 17:21:25 Ã¥ 17:21:30 wait, was that unicode or a question mark 17:21:30 ais523: agh 17:21:34 oerjan: unicode 17:21:42 I Swhack ais523 for a & 17:21:56 zuff, what are the rules of this game? 17:22:02 well, I raise you a : and hail your mountain 17:22:04 AnMaster: buy the rulebook 17:22:08 ais523: ha! 17:22:08 mornington crescent 17:22:08 zuff, link? 17:22:13 hm 17:22:13 AnMaster: http://amazon.com/ 17:22:19 "mornington crescent"? 17:22:20 right 17:22:20 search for "one-letterism" 17:22:22 AnMaster: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=Mornington_Crescent, it's an entirely different game but you'll get the idea after reading htat 17:22:23 but it's probably out of print. 17:22:28 zuff: that's not a letter 17:22:31 ais523: yeah, the game has some similarities 17:22:36 also, ) 17:22:45 the games are a bit niche due to the ruleset problems 17:22:48 it's weird how hard to get they are 17:22:50 btw, that is a NetHack rapier with which to stab Wooble 17:22:57 oh there are no public rules? 17:22:59 I Stab Wooble with the ), and Z 17:23:02 AnMaster: no, there are 17:23:05 zuff: it's not out of print, but you can only get it by personal appearance at the BBC 17:23:06 they're just all out of print 17:23:11 oerjan: that's effectively out of print. 17:23:16 AnMaster: just pick it up as you go along. 17:23:20 for example: 17:23:26 a -> z is invalid, but a -> e may be valid 17:23:35 hmh 17:23:35 a -> y is definitely valid, but a -> e would be more profitable 17:23:41 but the losses are great if it's not valid 17:23:43 zuff, and the goal is the get the highest score? 17:23:45 so be careful 17:23:53 AnMaster: or gain the Five Trophies 17:23:58 zuff, oh? 17:23:58 but that takes years 17:24:27 zuff: a -> z is perfectly valid as the first two letters, just ask any elder ones 17:24:32 oerjan: right 17:24:38 but the first two letters should usually be left to the pros 17:24:44 due to being the most tricky moves 17:24:55 e.g. the 1994 game of Angman vs Smith 17:24:58 I did google and search amazon, 6 hits on google, 3 on amazone, none seem relevant 17:25:03 which lasted for 1,000 letters 17:25:10 and yet was decided by the first two, unknown to them! 17:25:26 also you are making this stuff up ;P 17:25:35 never! 17:25:39 AnMaster: no, really 17:25:42 it's just an obscure game 17:26:03 zuff, yeah so obscure google give 6 hits, none of which are about a game with that name 17:26:12 oh, i haven't said its name yet 17:26:18 you said one-letterism 17:26:24 that's a nickname 17:26:26 one of the rules is that you're not allowed to tell anyone the name 17:26:29 zuff: that was because the two letters (n and t) effectively turned the rest into a game of brussels sprouts 17:26:30 it's a bit idiosyncratic... 17:26:32 very funny 17:26:33 anti-memetic 17:27:13 hm 17:28:00 in fact _any_ two starting letters are legal, but some are well-known losing moves 17:28:38 ah 17:28:54 yeah, 'xactly 17:29:00 the first two are essentially a different game altogether 17:29:09 just one question, is letter == any unicode codepoint? 17:29:33 AnMaster: not for the first two letters. then it depends. 17:30:12 AnMaster: one of the famous games - 1987's Chong vs Armstrong - 17:30:23 ended with Chong playing "tau4" as a letter 17:30:28 which turned out to be valid due to a typo in the rules... 17:30:34 he won 17:31:01 zuff, what Armstrong? The music player? The astronaut? Someone else? 17:31:12 the $name player 17:31:15 ah 17:31:38 s/music player/musician/ 17:32:00 (probably) 17:32:12 of course that was before unicode was invented. unicode actually reduced the number of letters by outlawing some of the more obscure chinese characters. 17:32:46 ah yes I remember reading not all Chinese characters are in unicode.. 17:32:53 oerjan: han unification solved a lot of issues 17:33:01 those damn chinese won almost every game due to their extensive letter set 17:33:27 yeah only the egyptians had any real competition 17:35:08 and they didn't even show any interest :( 17:35:50 enough talking, anyone want another game 17:35:51 ? 17:36:11 is '?' the first letter? 17:36:15 b 17:36:15 ha 17:36:17 i win 17:36:28 more honestly: 17:36:28 a 17:36:33 f 17:36:36 x 17:36:37 ∴ 17:36:42 h 17:36:46 what? 17:36:52 what do you mean what 17:37:01 what rules are these? 17:37:11 the x-clipped ones 17:37:12 ( 17:37:15 h 17:37:30 ô 17:37:44 h 17:37:53 ¤ 17:37:57 h 17:38:03 h 17:38:12 e 17:38:13 ð 17:38:16 h 17:38:17 ö 17:38:26 h 17:38:28 f 17:38:28 i win 17:38:32 (triple-duplexed h/e) 17:38:44 zuff, no. you forgot something important 17:38:59 3-similar basic shape rule 17:39:08 that's not relevant when using shunting 17:39:15 i tried to stop it with the ð but you had just sent the e 17:39:24 yeah 17:39:25 zuff, ah except when duplexed with e 17:39:35 AnMaster: yes, but e-duplexing is permitted if it's early 17:39:43 btw, try to use less unicode, it allows the h/ 17:39:44 e 17:39:45 formation 17:39:54 h 17:39:59 zuff, the ( changed the phase though 17:40:03 so that isn't relevant 17:40:04 zuff: in your excitement, you forgot to send the final h 17:40:09 AnMaster: stop complaining, it's a valid win 17:40:14 but zuff forgot to finish it off 17:40:19 wait, sorry 17:40:23 ais523, hm maybe, according to the 2001 rules 17:40:24 ais523: no, I did 17:40:25 I missed the h above Azstal's comment 17:40:27 AnMaster's f-shunting 17:40:30 allowed the shorthand 17:40:31 yeah 17:40:37 [[A breeder reactor built in a shed, and the boy scout badge to prove credit was given where boy scout credit was due. (500 points) This item was completed, although the team only came in second place.[6] ]] 17:40:40 but not if you consider the last 1970 rules 17:40:41 -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Chicago_Scavenger_Hunt 17:41:28 zuff, wow 17:41:34 like, unsafe 17:41:46 you misspelled AWESOME 17:42:16 zuff, well that too, but seriously insane and unsafe 17:42:48 and AWESOME 17:43:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hahn has more info on it 17:49:54 no, that's not the guy 17:50:06 Perhaps the most notable item that has yet been completed was from the 1999 list; a breeder reactor in a shed was successfully built on the main quadrangle.[1] The item itself was a joke referring to the "Radioactive Boy Scout" David Hahn. The students irradiated thorium with thermal neutrons and observed traces of uranium and plutonium.[2] 17:50:13 it was a joke, and a reference to him 17:50:17 but it was actually don 17:50:18 e 17:50:21 ah 17:50:22 right 17:50:25 misread the link 17:51:09 Nomic finding: 1 coin is worth around 3.57142857142857 mack. 17:51:29 zuff, which nomic? 17:51:50 Coins are from the People's Bank of Agora, which I created. Mack is the official currency of B Nomic. 17:51:57 ah agora, ok 17:52:04 I figured this out because a B win is 5000 mack. 17:52:11 heh 17:52:14 And you can win Agora (slowly) if you have 1400 coins 17:52:19 (by withdrawing assets that get you points) 17:52:31 This, of course, assumes the PBA has infinity of everything. 17:53:28 ais523, is the last gcc-bf uploaded? 17:53:34 with the new build system 17:53:35 no, not yet 17:53:42 ais523, ah, when do you plan to? 18:07:12 when I finish reading email and working out how 18:07:26 actually, all I need to send is the build script and the patches dir 18:07:33 the original source to gcc and to newlib haven't changed 18:07:47 so you'd only need to redownload my stuff, which is all in patches apart from build and readme 18:12:33 ais523, re-download the tarball? 18:12:56 it wasn't a tarball in the first place, IIRC 18:13:05 ais523, yes it was when I downloaded it 18:13:09 with a simple build script 18:13:11 ah, maybe it was 18:13:14 using some messy realpath 18:13:16 yes, I remember what I did now 18:13:18 that didn't exist on my system 18:13:25 also, it probably still uses realpath 18:13:41 then I'll wait for a version that doesn't 18:13:51 that'll probably be soon but not today 18:13:54 say some time this week 18:14:06 I'd like to try to get gcc-bf to actually compile something simple to a mostly-working state, too 18:20:58 ais523, I remember I provided a replacement function that worked for gcc-bf 18:21:06 yes, it's simple enough 18:21:10 to write a replacement 18:21:14 that iirc relied on it not being a file 18:21:17 just I still have hundreds of unread emails 18:21:41 something like realpath() { cd "$dir"; echo "$PWD"/; } 18:21:42 or such 18:22:00 don't remember 18:22:41 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:27:33 -!- Judofyr has joined. 18:31:02 Mage_Catalog_Model_Resource_Eav_Mysql4_Product_Type_Configurable_Attribute_Collection: 18:31:05 http://svn.magentocommerce.com/source/branches/1.1-trunk/app/code/core/Mage/Catalog/Model/Resource/Eav/Mysql4/Product/Type/Configurable/Attribute/Collection.php 18:32:25 heh? 18:33:00 it's beautiful 18:33:00 XD 18:33:06 the name is quite long 18:33:12 and it's php 18:33:13 "quite" 18:33:24 well that was an understatement 18:33:31 zuff, how did you find it? 18:33:37 someone's blahhhg 18:33:52 hey, Perl6 has a release date 18:33:57 wow 18:34:05 it's "Christmas Day", they didn't specify the year 18:34:07 ais523, same as Duke Nukem? 18:34:08 so clearly cheating 18:34:13 ais523: um, duh 18:34:15 hah 18:34:16 they make that joke all the time 18:34:20 that's the running gag 18:34:21 * oerjan swats ais523 -----### 18:34:29 I didn't realise it hadn't been made before 18:34:32 on the other hand, Chinese Democracy and Python 3000 are out 18:34:33 *had been made before 18:34:49 Chinese Democracy? Really I thought they didn't have that 18:34:49 still to go: Perl 6, DNF, new MBV album, any others? 18:34:54 what next, Ruby 2? 18:34:58 AnMaster: the album. 18:34:59 MBV? 18:34:59 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----### 18:35:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Democracy 18:35:05 I know that was a pun. 18:35:06 And I don't care. 18:35:16 zuff, what pun? 18:35:19 I didn't make a pun... 18:35:25 oh, and the year of the linux desktop, if that counts 18:35:25 I never heard of such an album 18:35:32 zuff: you want so hard to believe... 18:35:50 Asztal: that's different, the year of the Linux Desktop isn't something that's slow and up-coming 18:35:55 it's something that's declared every single year 18:35:56 MBV = 80s/90s shoegazer band, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Bloody_Valentine_(band) 18:36:01 hm 18:36:02 ok 18:36:06 never heard of them either 18:36:13 niether have I 18:36:16 For reference I'm currently listening to: Antonio Vivaldi - Spring - Concerto for violin, op 8, no 1, in E major - Allegro - City of London Sinfonia 18:36:41 :P 18:36:41 oh, also 18:36:41 analytical engine 18:36:41 been waiting a while for that one. 18:36:41 you have good taste 18:36:41 that was hand typed from the CD cover 18:36:41 ais523, thanks 18:36:50 ais523, I also like Enya, yes strange mix I know 18:36:51 that was built, though 18:36:56 not by the original author 18:36:59 ais523: was it? 18:37:16 some modern-day project recreated it from plans IIRC 18:37:20 although that's an "it might be an urban legend" IIRC 18:37:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytical_engine 18:38:05 There's a simulator on the internet, too 18:38:10 Although the syntax is horrible 18:38:17 also, my tastes in music are pretty contradictory 18:38:17 Although not as bad as punchcards, I guess 18:40:33 hmm... it seems that 64-bit Wine has managed to run a hello world program, though 18:40:51 anyone whose taste in music includes punchcards is clearly insane, so belongs here 18:41:15 Come on, punchcards are awesome in music, oerjan 18:41:25 They're the salloon music of every cowboy movie 18:41:40 CLC-INTERCAL accepts punched-card input 18:42:24 Too bad punch card readers pretty much disappeared :o 18:42:37 There's a society that still make 'em, but fuck it's expensive 18:45:08 what is "punchcards in music"? 18:45:12 the sound when they hit the floor? 18:45:14 or what 18:45:37 I was thinking of those old pianos with punchcards. 18:45:45 Well, tapes. 18:45:45 oh? What for? 18:45:47 um 18:45:50 huh? 18:46:02 why would a piano have a tape? 18:46:02 You know. 18:46:07 http://www.outstandingelephant.com/jcquard/ 18:46:11 no I don't, and I play piano 18:46:12 The tape has holes in it 18:46:19 Slereah-, yes right, punchtape 18:46:19 The piano reads the hole, and make a not 18:46:21 note 18:46:28 Slereah-, a music box? 18:46:31 IT MAKES MUSIC 18:46:32 ... 18:46:34 right 18:46:41 but is it a piano then? 18:46:55 Well, it sure is in westerns! 18:47:01 or an analog synth? 18:47:03 I'm not sure if it's historically accurate though 18:47:19 it sounds more like a keyboard/synth 18:47:23 except analog 18:47:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_roll 18:47:27 There we go 18:48:03 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/Pianola1.JPG 18:48:07 Is this TC? :o 18:48:28 I don't think so 18:48:38 IIRC, piano rolls work much the same way http://esolangs.org/wiki/Text does 18:49:47 Heh. 18:50:07 ah that one 18:50:17 3 18:50:20 oops 18:50:30 AnMaster: "oh, THAT piano punch card thing" 18:50:31 s/^/ i thought you meant the other one! 18:50:43 zuff, no, I was thinking about Text 18:50:50 I didn't remember what lang it was 18:51:09 and I accept the existence of automated pianos 18:51:25 but as a piano purist I wouldn't consider them real pianos ;P 18:52:13 that's like not supporting gay marriage!! 18:52:18 [NB above sentence makes no sense] 18:52:28 indeed it makes no sense 18:53:13 it makes no, sensei 18:53:19 haha 18:54:02 one question about these pianos, how do they reproduce the volume of the tone 18:54:10 forte, piano, and so on 18:56:08 it's fortissimo all the time. had to be to be heard over the constant shooting 18:56:23 hehe 19:09:15 Oh you. 19:09:21 Also it's piano all the time 19:09:25 Because it's a piano 19:09:29 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:10:04 Slereah-, not as funny 19:10:24 considering the real name of the piano when introduced was "pianoforte" 19:10:35 it was hilarious because it was terribe 19:10:38 terrible 19:10:52 So it's both piano and forte at the same time 19:11:11 ok that one was better 19:11:27 zuff, also had I made the piano joke you would have said it was just bad 19:11:30 ;P 19:11:42 :P 19:11:57 * oerjan claims to have thought up the piano joke before the fortissimo one, and discarded it 19:12:57 http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/2002/12/03/december_3rd/ 19:13:25 AREN'T YOU TWELVE THOUGH? 19:13:40 IT'S A GOOD THING THAT'S NOT MY BLOG EH 19:14:03 EH? 19:14:08 ARE YOU CANADIAN? 19:14:23 YES. NO. 19:15:03 EH is his secret blog duh 19:15:39 now why anyone would name a secret blog after their initials is beyond me 19:17:30 Eric Hird 19:17:34 Eleonor Hird 19:17:50 Esme Hird 19:17:52 Elephant, actually 19:17:53 EsmeESME 19:18:02 he never forgets a bad pun 19:18:02 ESMEESMESMESMESMESM 19:18:09 thus the shooting sprees 19:18:26 D: 19:18:32 ESME : NEVER FORGET 19:18:56 oh no, someone mentioned ESME again? 19:19:03 me 19:19:05 oh my 19:20:33 -!- Mony has quit ("Mouarf...."). 19:20:51 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wHjieD6CTYs 19:49:59 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:24:21 ais523: about that comment about linux desktop above 20:24:25 isn't it already here? 20:48:11 no. 20:51:21 zuff, oh+ 20:51:22 ? 21:12:29 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 21:13:17 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 21:46:10 night 21:58:54 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:44:56 I'm kinda disappointed. 22:45:04 Osmonian didn't update in like forever 22:47:10 wat 22:47:25 You know 22:47:29 Plain English* 22:49:18 o 22:49:18 :P 22:49:28 did they update? 22:49:31 whaddoes that mean 22:53:18 heloooooo everyybooody :D 22:53:23 * oklofok goes again 22:57:29 zuff : I said they did not 22:57:34 It means what it means 22:57:35 ah. 22:57:41 Slereah-: i think they stopped developing in like 2005 22:57:55 Aw. 22:58:05 But... It's revolujtionary and all! 22:58:10 The website goes on about that! 22:58:53 Oh god 22:59:01 I just came across a terrible program 22:59:12 It's a flash to iPod converter. 22:59:21 As it converts files, it PLAYS THEM 22:59:28 Does anyone know a better one? 23:02:42 well 23:02:43 actionscript. 23:02:47 there's no other way to do it 23:02:49 i guess. 23:03:11 Actionscript? 23:03:37 flash has an embedded javacsript 23:03:39 called actionscrip 23:03:39 t 23:04:52 It's nice to see my old flash, but it's like half an hour long. 23:05:13 And I can't play other stuff now 2008-12-16: 00:35:24 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird. 01:07:11 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 01:08:09 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:34:23 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:35:22 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:34:12 -!- puzzlet_ has quit ("Reconnecting"). 02:34:16 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:44:25 Making a machine that does something usually done on a computer (e.g., sorting) isn't mechanical engineering, it's just porting to the language "physics" :) 03:00:02 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 04:17:02 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 04:30:12 i bin sort hundreds of items by hand ever day :( 04:30:42 get a new job? 04:30:53 same job 04:31:09 i meant 04:31:11 get a new job 04:31:20 oh 04:31:26 :P 04:35:33 i'm not sure how i should go about getting a real job 04:39:32 Everyone on IRC is a college student. 04:40:00 not i 04:40:38 Except ehird, because in Britain, "college" means "Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays while both digits of one's age are prime". 04:41:07 Or something like that, anyway. 04:42:16 22,23,25,27,32,33,35,37,52,53,55,57,72,73,75,77 04:44:02 Precisely. 04:46:01 Actually, I think the days of the week might be rearranged over there, making it Wednesdays, Mondays, and Thursdays, in that order. 04:47:29 Nope, looks like Britain's days of the week are generally Sunday-first, like ours. 04:49:16 just say prime-numbered days and be done with it 05:09:22 guys 05:09:27 quizicle 05:09:48 f(0) = 1, f(1) = 1, f(2) = 1, f(3) = 1, f(4) = 1 05:09:52 what is f(5) = ? 05:11:43 121 ? 05:11:57 possible. 05:12:04 completely acceptable answer. 05:12:40 infact, f(5) can be any number you want 05:13:48 psygnisfive, saw that on qntm once 05:14:13 because for any arbitrary numbers, x0, x1, ... xn there exists an infinite number of quadratic functions that have zeros at those numbers, so suppose z(x) is just such a function 05:14:35 http://qntm.org/?1111 05:14:37 if thats the case, you can construct any function you want that is constant on exactly those numbers, and something else elsewhere 05:14:44 1+x^5-10*x^4+35*x^3-50*x^2+24*x 05:14:46 sgeo: this is infact where i got it :) 05:14:49 but his explanation is wonky 05:14:56 just think of it like this: 05:14:59 Howso? 05:15:08 x(x-1)(x-2)(x-3)...(x-k) 05:15:32 for x = 0,1,...k, this will equal 0 05:16:13 so from that you can do anything you want. 05:16:20 add it to any relevant number, multiply it, whatever 05:17:05 and at those numbers itll equal 0, but outside that range itll be whatever 05:20:39 in general, finitely many values are not enough to describe a function. 05:20:54 indeed! 05:21:08 which is not surprising at all 05:21:10 for some classes of functions they are but in general no. which is interesting :) 05:21:42 not surprising, but it's got obvious implications for inductivism 05:21:45 why did you bring this up? 05:21:47 not that inductivism makes sense anyway, but 05:21:52 bsmntbombdood: why not? 05:21:56 dis are esoteric 05:22:23 i think a more interesting fact is that countably many values is enough to describe a large class of useful functions 05:25:40 indeed indeed 05:27:48 (f(x) = 1 for x in [0,1]. What's f(42)?) 05:29:33 (for that matter, f(x) = 1 for all x not equal to 42. What's f(42)?) 05:30:01 f(42) =--- Error -21456: Your planet has been demolished by a vogon construction fleet. 05:31:05 f(1) = 0, f(1) = 1, f(1) = 2, f(1) = 3, f(1) = 4 05:31:09 what is f(1) = ? 05:31:25 also, i can divide polynomials while sleep-deprived, out of practice, and intoxicated. 05:31:30 i wonder if i have some russian blood in me. 05:31:45 f(1) = 1 and maybe some other stuff :P 05:59:58 G'night all 06:01:42 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 06:40:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:58:36 psygnisfive: is dividing polynomials an extremely hard procedure? 06:59:40 not in a single variable, at least 07:00:33 not in a single variable? 07:00:44 for more variables i vaguely recall the answer can be dependent on order, i think i saw something about it in wp's Gröbner basis article 07:01:53 for two polynomials in x, dividing one on the other gives you a quotient and a remainder by long division 07:01:54 ohh single variable right, you mean like having just one variable. 07:02:25 you meant what you *said*, never occurred to me. 07:02:42 you do it almost like with integers, pretending that x is the base 07:02:57 yes, i know the procedure. 07:03:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%B6bner_basis 07:03:42 can't really not know it having gone to school for X years 07:03:50 (not sure how many exactly) 07:04:00 (but too many) 07:04:34 "multivariate division of any polynomial in the polynomial ring R by G gives a unique remainder;" is one of the equivalent definitions of a gröbner basis 07:06:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multivariate_division_algorithm 07:06:29 stop seducing me with your links, i need to read my things. 07:06:50 BWAHAHAHA 07:07:33 i have an exam in $stupid_course in 50 minutes 07:08:35 oh. good luck. 07:09:12 oklofok: you'll appreciate this: http://images.google.ca/images?q=alba 07:09:56 :) 07:11:33 the course is about gui's, the lecture notes are mostly about how java does it, and the exam asks more theoretical questions i can't really answer based on the notes, because they are crap in the theory parts. 07:11:45 * oerjan lends oklofok his swatter to use on lament 07:12:23 stuff like "- how to do this?", and presumably the lecturer has then answered that, but i didn't attend lectures. 07:12:37 oh thanks. 07:12:56 * oklofok swats la.. himself in the face 07:12:59 ouch 07:13:09 i can't use this thing it's like it has a life of its own 07:13:11 :| 07:13:15 where did you get it? 07:14:08 -!- lifthras1ir has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 07:14:57 * oerjan takes it back 07:15:24 well the last - was from pikhq i think 07:16:31 for the rest of it, well i was walking down the internet when i noticed this little webshop that hadn't been there the previous day 07:17:53 inside there was this strange little chinese looking man with glasses, who offered me the fly swatter 07:19:00 ...was that chinese man called wong by any chance? 07:20:15 he didn't say, and i couldn't read the shop sign. i bought the swatter and went. then i realized the manual was in chinese too, so i went back to ask if he had any european language manual. 07:20:34 but the shop was already gone! 07:21:41 fortunately google translate allowed me to get most of it. but there were some mysterious passages that caused google to crash. 07:22:03 not just google translate - apparently their whole network went down. 07:22:42 that's probably normal. 07:23:02 and that's all i know. i just try not to do anything too fancy with the swatter, just in case. 07:23:10 * oklofok fears this'll be his first non 5/5 grade :< 07:23:18 will i die? 07:23:46 yes. 07:23:49 no. but your finnish genes imply a slight chance of a shooting spree. 07:24:00 well, in which case you might die. 07:24:31 oh and of course, eventually. 07:24:46 sooner if you keep using the swatter 07:24:50 oh dear :| 07:25:42 haha 07:25:42 i can already feel my trigger finger starting to twitch uncontrollably 07:26:40 there is a half-translated passage of the manual that says there is a way to use it not to die. but it also warns that this is _very_ unlikely to be considered an improvement. 07:27:09 even in the short term. 07:27:32 if i start shooting people 07:27:37 use the swatter on me, okay? 07:27:58 i'm afraid i won't be there. the swatter only works on the internet. 07:28:31 lol like i'd ever shoot anyone irl :D 07:28:35 it'd be an irc shooting. 07:28:46 ic 07:29:28 in that case, it might be better to use the saucepan. 07:29:46 bleh, megzlna in #haskell... 07:29:56 it has, as far as i can tell, no mystical properties. 07:30:31 although it has a good steel bottom. 07:31:25 steel? are you sure it's not aluminum? 07:31:29 oerjan: what about megsaasc 07:32:05 i think haskell's global names thing is pretty annoying too. 07:33:13 olsner: finest stainless steel 07:33:33 oklofok: what is megsaasc 07:33:52 oklofok: well, I agree, but he/she has a way of being annoyed that is by far more annoying than the thing itself 07:34:21 oerjan: megzlna 07:35:32 but yeah, modules are a working solution for that, which is why i only see it as a slight inconvenience 07:35:52 and dunno about annoying, i'm never annoyed 07:36:44 me, frequently annoyed 07:39:02 haskell modules, do you need to separate them in different files? 07:39:10 yes 07:39:28 that i do find annoying 07:39:48 it's how the compiler finds them 07:40:30 i'm sure it's very practical, that's no excuse, because i'm critisizing the whole world, not just haskell 07:40:56 *cize 07:41:02 *cizing 07:41:06 oooooooooooooooooooooo 07:41:09 ooooooooooooo 07:41:46 the module system is pretty simplistic, but I like that it is 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:33 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 08:03:01 -!- Corun has joined. 08:03:24 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 08:42:19 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 08:54:30 -!- lifthras1ir has joined. 08:54:30 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:03:21 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:07:49 -!- lifthras1ir has quit ("leaving"). 09:10:20 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 09:12:49 GregorR, there? codu.org seems down 09:12:58 no idea if you know about it or not 09:29:16 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 09:41:56 -!- Asztal has joined. 09:43:20 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 10:39:25 -!- Corun has joined. 12:13:38 -!- Judofyr has joined. 13:15:20 -!- Judofyr has quit. 13:38:54 -!- jix has joined. 13:41:54 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 14:50:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:06:12 AnMaster: It's gone down a few times recently so I started logging the processes and top output to see why this is happening. The result: I haven't a fegging clue X_X 16:11:02 GregorR: Hmm. 16:11:09 I could check it out if you want. 16:11:15 rutian never goes down except when I restart it :P 16:25:28 The problem is that for some reason some stale trac.cgi processes are hanging around chewing up memory. Pile together a hundred of those or so and I've got no memory left. 16:26:44 In fact ... they're staying precisely to their CPU limit, then failing to die ... 16:27:34 GregorR: ah. 16:27:37 what web server? 16:28:17 apache2 16:28:32 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:28:38 use nginx :-P 16:29:35 What a useless non-solution. 16:29:41 Because it's not like I have any .htaccess files. 16:29:52 :D 16:33:31 * 16:33:32 Experimental features: 16:33:32 * embedded perl. 16:33:38 Ewwwwwwwwwwww 16:33:40 :P 16:35:21 GregorR: Yeah, yeah. 16:35:30 It also has a module specifically for serving a transparent 1x1 gif. 16:35:37 But just ignore all that shit. :P 16:35:46 http://wiki.codemongers.com/ english docs 16:35:52 Damned commies. 16:40:04 More like COCKMONGLER, amirite? 17:01:52 ehird: It also has a module specifically for serving a transparent 1x1 gif. <<< lol wut? :D 17:02:05 oklofok: it's because in ye olde 90s people did for padding 17:02:13 and spacing 17:02:15 because they knew not of css. 17:02:22 so that module does it hyperfast. 17:05:32 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDdddddddddddddddddddd 17:27:38 hm 17:27:44 hi ehird 17:27:50 haven't seen you for a while 17:27:59 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff. 17:28:02 More bouncer errors. 17:28:05 aha 17:28:20 zuff, is it a config issue or software issue? 17:28:47 It's a SPIRITUAL ISSUE. 17:28:56 if it is the former, complain to ehird, if it is the latter tell ehird he may want to try znc 17:29:01 zuff, oh? how do you mean? 17:29:14 I am not close enough to GOD for my bouncer to work correctly. 17:29:21 err 17:29:22 ehird's bouncer. 17:29:27 You mean Xenu 17:29:43 Err 17:29:44 yes 17:48:59 -!- BtbN has joined. 17:49:20 -!- BtbN has left (?). 18:03:36 zuff, haha 18:03:50 Hi BtbN. 18:03:52 Bye BtbN. 18:04:58 hm 18:26:10 fizzie: can you do something with fungot for me? 18:26:10 zuff: ( c) the judge, or 18:26:34 ^help 18:26:35 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 18:26:45 no; it needs fizzie-permissions 18:27:10 what on earth may that be? 18:28:57 Hm? (I'm preparing food, so partially away.) 18:29:33 fizzie: Make it change nick to meow and join #reddit. 18:29:36 Plz. :D 18:29:36 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:30:06 Uh, no; I want to be around to observe that sort of stuff, and busy right now. :p 18:30:38 Don't worry it's mostly perfectly innocent apart from the one bit which is all of it. 18:39:32 Wow, hold on: is iHope == Actaeus on the XKCD for a? 18:39:54 er, that is to say, is anyone here that person on the fora? 18:40:22 What? 18:40:34 Link to their profile/ 18:41:20 http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=31598&sid=bbf395caf53ac448f3e5347d6b4fdc5a#p1189920 that links to http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/06.03.20 and I am busy playing that game on the XKCD forum. I was just interested if someone here I knew was, in fact, playing against me 18:42:09 Well, our logs are quite googleable. 18:42:19 * zuff internet-stalks to see 18:42:49 I spend far too much of my time on the xkcd fora, where I go by Actaeus. I’m also a denizen of #xkcd on irc.foonetic.net, where I’m Daedalus, but lately I haven’t been there very regularly. 18:42:53 Never seen either of those here. 18:42:58 So nobody from here I think 18:43:28 * oklofok changes back to IE 18:43:33 oklofok: what why 18:43:45 firefox crashes every day, sometimes many times. 18:44:06 Oh, so it is you zuff - curse you :P Heh, either way, I can't say I knew you before hand 18:44:18 Hiato: I'm ehird. 18:44:31 Oh, damn, you are? Hell, small world 18:44:46 Wait. 18:44:49 Do you know another zuff? 18:44:57 Nope 18:45:00 Ah. 18:45:44 and let me guess then, it was ais523 that came up with the 3 state two symbol (or visa versa) turing machine that caused some controversy.. 18:46:17 Hiato: no; but he solved it and got money in the process. 18:46:21 How did you guess? :-P 18:46:25 Oh, 23? 18:46:27 That's coincidence. 18:46:58 Heh, no, no, not really - but partially. Adrew Smith = AiS:P (Ian?) 18:47:07 Alex (ian) smith 18:47:26 Technically ais523 is a separate person because he's a wikipedia admin and they get death threats and stuff. 18:48:00 Oh, heh - bad memory. So then, let me ask, who is scikidus? Heh, lol - interesting take on FOSS attitude there 18:48:08 Well, most of the death threats were from me. 18:48:13 lol 18:48:14 scikidus? 18:48:18 But it's his fault, really. 18:48:21 I told him. 18:48:26 Don't mess with football. 18:48:30 I don't think we've seen a scikidus. 18:48:36 ...should we have? 18:49:32 Slereah: I see, anything you'd like to share? Ehird/zuff: Well, that other guy on the Big number game - unless, of course, you were joking. Oh, and tricky777 18:49:48 Hiato: Slereah- was joking... also, what was I joking about 18:49:50 :s 18:50:08 It's true. I didn't actually issued death threats to ais523. 18:50:12 Surprising no? 18:50:23 My world has been turned upside-down 18:50:26 Although I could do some now, I suppose. 18:50:30 ais523! 18:50:36 (20:43:01) zuff: I spend far too much of my time on the xkcd fora, where I go by Actaeus. 18:50:39 PREPARE TO MEET YOUR DOOM! 18:50:42 DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM! 18:50:50 Hiato: that was copy pasting from the guy you linked's blahg 18:50:57 Youtube it (might as well make a pretty penny) 18:50:59 Oh, lol 18:51:00 rofl 18:51:16 Wow, this is what happens after a long day 18:52:57 Ok, let's see - how do we delete the logs? :P 18:55:48 :D 18:56:26 Ooooooh 18:56:30 Spam on the wiki :D 18:56:34 Like shitload of it 18:58:02 link 18:59:20 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges 18:59:33 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Befungehttp:/www.mepis.org/docs/en/index.php/Make_Media_players_work 18:59:36 huh 18:59:43 lol 18:59:48 Misread that as Special:Rectangles. They should have a special page like that. With some CSS rectangles in it, or something. 19:00:00 fizzie: NICK meow JOIN #reddit 19:00:16 :{ 19:00:17 lol 19:00:18 Nnnnah. But you can run your own copy of fungot to do that, maybe? 19:00:18 fizzie: providing a unique name, mintor, except a transfer order 19:00:18 (fungot taht is) 19:00:18 zuff: the initiation of the contract's terms, the voting period. this rule 19:00:27 fizzie: That would be difficult. 19:00:49 Well, nontrivial, maybe. 19:00:53 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:%22The_most_important_thing_in_the_programming_language_is_the_name._A_language_will_not_succeed_without_a_good_name._I_have_recently_invented_a_very_good_name_and_now_I_am_looking_for_a_suitable_language.%22 ais523 WANTS TO DELETE OUR LANGUAGE 19:00:59 The language model stuff needs a bit of disk space. 19:01:18 fizzie: plzzzz 19:01:23 I'll bribe you with agoran assets 19:01:46 I doubt those translate to anything useful in a real-world sense. 19:02:14 fizzie: jaycampbell was offering 5 bucks for 300 coins a while back, iirc. 19:02:35 -!- olsner has joined. 19:03:02 I am wary of doing anything related to freenode channels I do not know about (which, at this point, means anything else than #esoteric) since they might get offended or something. 19:03:13 don't worry, they'll be very happy 19:03:34 I'm also not sure whether you're the most trustworthy person around. 19:03:36 No offence! 19:03:46 C'mon :} 19:04:33 fizzie: CMON :D 19:04:43 Mmmeh. I guess I can always /part if it looks like someone's getting restless. Although fungot's raw-loggery is difficult to follow. 19:04:43 fizzie: be known to all contestants, and cannot be made in a row receive exactly the same 19:04:52 fizzie: Thank you :} 19:05:27 fizzie: :} 19:05:44 Er, I think I'll run another copy, though. If I just do ^raw NICK, it won't change the name it looks for in the babbling thing. 19:05:53 Ah, good point. 19:05:57 That's ok. 19:06:22 Did you want it set to this agora style? 19:06:31 Any style would be OK, but irc would be best. 19:07:02 fizzie: you should explore freenode more, this is the best network there is 19:08:19 oklofok: I did look at some freenode channel list, but was unable to decide, there being so many options. I used to idle on #scheme some time ago, though. 19:09:16 well this is the best channel, so a good start. 19:09:26 fizzie: :} 19:09:59 fizzie: where else are you? 19:10:00 http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=31598&sid=bbf395caf53ac448f3e5347d6b4fdc5a#p1189920 that links to http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/06.03.20 and I am busy playing that game on the XKCD forum. I was just interested if someone here I knew was, in fact, playing against me <-- hm... that makes me wonder 19:10:10 -!- vabot_ has joined. 19:10:16 oklofok: Nowhere else, in this network. 19:10:18 "fastest-growing recursive function for two arguments that only calls the successor function (x+1) and itself". 19:10:20 what about: 19:10:26 Hmm, for some reason the meow-copy does not babble. 19:10:33 i meant on what other networks 19:10:34 fizzie: :{ 19:10:37 then realized i already know. 19:10:38 maybe fixed lenght check 19:10:41 I think it's missing some file; the list of styles is empty. 19:10:42 N(x) -> N(x+1) 19:10:45 not fast growing 19:10:47 but infinite 19:11:14 buzzy beavor 19:11:45 Yeah, AnMaster: It would be nice, and hugely recursive, but again,it's infinite and thus incomputable thus violating two of the rules in the OP, but there are faster growing ones 19:11:52 oklofok, yeah, already tried 19:11:58 Hiato, ah 19:12:01 hm 19:12:13 any number of arguments allowed? 19:12:30 Sure 19:12:41 then I _think_ it is easy 19:12:50 to make it as fast growing as you want 19:13:00 Yes, it was missing styles.list. 19:13:04 Oh? 19:13:13 fizzie: works now? :D 19:13:18 Seems to. 19:13:25 :DD 19:13:26 Hiato: tried what? 19:13:34 The nickname is registered, though. Not in use right now, but still. 19:13:44 Yeah, well. 19:13:48 oklofok: http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7469&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=120#p1119569 19:13:48 Thanks. 19:13:58 AnMaster: what's the idea? 19:14:04 working on it... 19:14:18 The raw log doesn't show anything I send, so I won't see them replies. 19:14:29 N(0,b,c,d) -> d N(a,b,c,d) -> N(a,b,c-1,d+1) 19:14:41 not finished 19:14:58 but the basic idea is that you for each level make it recursively add to the last argument 19:15:06 using the others as counter, adding huge amounts to them 19:15:13 recursively 19:15:21 for each recursion 19:15:22 -!- Corun has changed nick to BurgerFuel. 19:15:30 I think something like that _may_ work 19:15:37 fizzie: that lasted long 19:15:39 Currently I think this to be the greatest number in the competition: http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7469&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=b2fb64934328f8712614dc0c394f9f0a&start=200#p1206232 which relies on this http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7469&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=80#p1096078 19:15:40 N(a,b,c,d) -> N(a+,b+,c-1,d+1 19:15:44 then when c reach 0 19:15:48 begin with next 19:15:54 also define several sub recursions for each 19:16:02 Yes, how intolerant. It wouldn't even have looped for any more messages. 19:16:15 Yeah, I've basicly done that in my recent one. While you decrease one argument, increase another etc 19:16:23 fizzie: indeed. what pigs. 19:16:59 Hiato, yes and add a huge amount of arguments + increase several at once, make each such call increase everything else 19:17:20 probably nest it lick 19:17:21 like* 19:17:58 oklofok: Oh. Just the plain old IRCnet. 19:17:59 Yeah, the idea is awesome, the thing is you have to find a way to make it grow in value incomprehensibly at the same time as making it massively recursive 19:18:10 N(a,b,c,d) -> N(N(N(a,b,c,d-1),N(a,b,c,d-1),N(a,b,c,d-1),N(a,b,c,d-1)),N(N(a,b,c,d-1),N(a,b,c,d-1),N(a,b,c,d-1),N(a,b,c,d-1)),N(N(a,b,c,d-1),N(a,b,c,d-1),N(a,b,c,d-1),N(a,b,c,d-1))) 19:18:11 or something 19:18:47 I can't be arsed to work out the details 19:18:52 but the general concept should work 19:19:00 Hiato, as long as you give credits to me ;) 19:19:02 Yeah, though, I hat to say it, but relatively, that is less recursive than some other numbers 19:19:11 Though, AnMaster, you seem to have something there 19:19:25 Hiato, yes, just a rouge sketch 19:19:28 so I'll definitely try to use it - and yeah, you'll get the credit :P 19:19:30 add 10-15 arguments more 19:19:34 or whatever 19:19:42 A(G_A(G_64,G_64),A(G_64,G_64)) 19:19:46 err 19:19:48 A(G_A(G_64,G_64),G_A(G_64,G_64)) 19:19:53 fizzie: yes i know, as i said. 19:19:57 Sure, of course, and make it call itself as a supplmemntary argument as well 19:19:59 zuff, very nice, but just nest them a few more levels 19:19:59 What's G? 19:20:01 i've whoissed you on all networks i'm on. 19:20:04 :) 19:20:05 Oh, Graham? 19:20:07 Slereah-: graham 19:20:10 so we do 19:20:18 the G number indexed by A(g64,g64) 19:20:18 zuff: that is A(G_xkcd,G_xkcd) which is puny 19:20:19 * oklofok is an all-around stalker 19:20:19 Use busy beaver :o 19:20:20 :P 19:20:21 and apply it to A 19:20:24 Hiato: :P 19:20:38 It's a huge-number generator not used enough 19:20:42 Plus, it's on a turing machine! 19:20:49 slereah: http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7469&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=120#p1119569 19:21:02 Yay :D 19:21:07 I <3 U Hiato 19:21:07 oklofok: I also used to be on dalnet and efnet, but I can't even remember what channels, except dalnet's #alt.suicide.bus.stop, I think. 19:21:22 alt.suicide.bus.stop is lulzy 19:21:27 Oh, and the numbers from page four are way to large to be computed these days 19:21:32 as is its newsgroup parent 19:22:05 I think hanging on their IRC channel got my picture to some Italian magazine about those crazy Internet people. 19:22:13 * Hiato slaps Slereah with a mackerel 19:22:22 Is this foreplay? 19:22:29 mackerel is the b nomic currency 19:22:52 Lol, and er? 19:22:58 YOU FOUND : ONE MACKEREL! 19:23:06 *Zelda music* 19:23:16 Hiato: b.nomic.net 19:23:18 Hahaha - so, so, so sad 19:23:26 will do Ehird 19:23:53 -!- BurgerFuel has changed nick to CorunFuel. 19:24:15 who wouldn't 19:24:18 vabot 19:24:18 Hiato: Due to a required test protocol, we will not monitor the next chamber, you will be entirely on your own. Good Luck 19:24:50 God's truth oklofok - is everything here destined to be mis-interpreted? :P 19:26:57 Hiato, hm I read about some math professors doing something like that recently 19:27:11 Oh? 19:27:43 one of them ended up with something like (don't remember exactly) "the smallest number that is larger than any number of a finite set" 19:27:50 or such 19:28:13 Oh, Aleph-null? Hrmm, interesting, I don't suppose you have the link... 19:28:14 Hiato: intentionally yes. accidentally only if AnMaster is online ;) 19:28:27 oklofok, what? 19:28:30 well okay he hasn't done that for a while 19:28:46 AnMaster: you're oerjan's official pun-misinterpreter 19:28:48 also I was talking about the big number 19:29:02 oh? you misunderstood what i was saying 19:29:04 i see, i see :P 19:29:07 Hiato: [stalk mode] 19:29:08 (hence forth referred to as Esolangs - whose root word remains unknown to me) 19:29:13 [eso]teric-[lang]uages 19:29:19 oklofok, no I was not reading current convo 19:29:25 I was thinking about big numbers 19:29:33 ehird: Agreed 19:29:34 Hiato, hm think I found it 19:29:39 http://tech.mit.edu/V126/N64/64largenumber.html 19:29:41 there 19:29:47 Thanks, will check it out now 19:29:50 from last year 19:31:41 Hiato, ah it was "The smallest number bigger than any number that can be named by an expression in the language of first order set-theory with less than a googol (10100) symbols." 19:31:53 that 10100 seems wrong 19:31:57 should be 10^100 19:32:19 hrmm, yes, though there is a problem with that 19:32:23 let me find the link 19:32:27 Hiato, oh? 19:32:35 http://www.scottaaronson.com/writings/bignumbers.html 19:32:42 but, essentially: 19:33:28 ? 19:33:29 One plus the biggest whole number nameable with 1,000 characters of English text This number takes at least 1,001 characters to name. Yet we’ve just named it with only 80 characters! Like a snake that swallows itself whole, our colossal number dissolves in a tumult of contradiction. What gives? 19:33:32 From there down 19:33:34 hm 19:35:44 -!- AquaLoqua has joined. 19:36:08 vabot die 19:36:09 Goodbye cruel world 19:36:09 -!- vabot_ has quit ("underflow"). 19:36:13 Hiato, ah that differs a bit doesn't it? 19:36:35 first order logic vs. english 19:36:43 Well, the syntax is different, but the concept is the same 19:37:07 category theory explains that phenomenon 19:37:09 true 19:37:12 oklofok, oh? 19:37:14 The largest number one can notate within a given number of symbols is elegantly beaten by it's definition 19:37:38 -!- AquaLoqua has quit (Client Quit). 19:37:52 well, basically it defines set as something that cannot contain certain sets, you need classes (?) for that 19:37:59 i don't really understand it. 19:38:06 so i can't say much about it 19:38:40 hmm 19:38:42 paradox :- not(paradox). 19:38:51 is that the prolog translation of "is the answer to this question false?" 19:38:52 I think so 19:38:59 Well, I don't know much about that approach, but logic most certainly invalidates this 19:39:48 Ehird: What is the answer to this question?" 19:39:48 "This statement is neither true nor false" 19:39:48 "Why doesn't this question have an answer?" 19:39:48 "The following statement is false. The previous statement is true" 19:40:18 Hiato: I mean 19:40:22 The following statement is false. 19:40:23 How do you say, in Prolog, the statement 19:40:29 "This statement is false." 19:40:53 Oh, I see :P Still, the irrelevance and obscurity of my quotes should be entertaining enough 19:40:55 in haskell, x = not x 19:41:06 lament: i don;'t think so 19:41:07 * Hiato leaves for a brief ice-cream break 19:42:45 ok then 19:44:26 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:45:59 it's equivalent though 19:46:24 suppose we have a statement X that says "X is false" 19:46:27 X == false 19:46:35 expanding X: 19:46:38 (X == false) == false 19:46:43 simplifying: 19:46:45 X == true 19:46:49 mm 19:46:51 expanding X: 19:46:54 (X == false) == true 19:46:57 simplifying: 19:46:59 X == false 19:47:00 etc 19:47:01 uh oh 19:47:06 oh 19:47:07 thank god 19:47:08 so X == not X 19:47:08 :D 19:49:01 Hiato, also there is an easy way to always post a number bigger than the last posters number 19:49:06 copy paste it, add +1 19:49:08 :D 19:50:01 big numbers and paradoxes are boring 19:50:36 boredom is boring 19:50:47 hey that wasn't a meme 19:50:49 you meant: 19:50:54 -!- CorunFuel has quit ("Leaving"). 19:50:55 boring boredom is boring 19:50:57 :DF 19:50:59 no. 19:50:59 :D* 19:51:00 he didn't. 19:51:04 zuff, yes he did 19:54:01 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:02:43 AnMaster: Again, in violation of the OP :P 20:02:47 oh and 20:02:57 * Hiato returns from the ice-cream break, non the hotter 20:03:27 I disagree. 20:03:33 YOU ARE ONE HOT INDIVIDUAL 20:03:35 WINK WINK 20:04:23 Oooh, oh my... so subtle, yet attractive too 20:05:33 Subtle. Like my dick. Which I am about to shove in your mouth 20:05:46 Allright I'll stop. 20:07:19 Oh, no, please, don't feel compelled - it was just getting inappropriate 20:08:05 get a channel 20:08:19 Slereah? 20:08:28 That's me. 20:08:44 ... channel ideas? 20:09:02 #hiato_and_slereahs_hot_loving 20:09:14 Nah, that's the name of our paying website 20:09:52 -!- Slereah- has changed nick to Slereah. 20:10:05 See, future planning, that's where you phail zuff 20:10:17 lol 20:13:02 Hiato, OP? 20:14:19 Original Post (methinks) - basically the rules for the post/description of what is needed/requested 20:17:20 http://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18573 - lol 20:17:49 Needs moar esoOS 20:17:53 EVERYBOOOODY YEAH 20:17:55 WOOOO-O 20:17:59 woo 20:18:00 ROCK YOUR BOOOOOOODY YEAH 20:18:14 I'll rock your body alright! 20:18:24 And by that I mean STONE YOU YOU SHAMELESS WHORE 20:18:33 COVER YOUR BODY AND STOP THIS DEMONIC DANCING 20:18:35 ...wait how did you turn that into something sexual?!? :o 20:18:37 Damn, slereah, I though *WE* had something special 20:18:51 Slereah: are you covering for psygnisfive today? 20:19:05 since when is stoning threats gay? 20:19:24 Are you calling Iran gay? 20:19:24 'cause I'm telling. 20:19:32 :) 20:19:34 oh you 20:19:39 and your silly anecdotes 20:19:43 O_o 20:23:15 hey kids 20:23:19 oklofok: no hes not 20:23:25 * psygnisfive pounces oklofok 20:23:47 psygnisfive : I'll cover you! 20:23:58 x.x 20:26:58 :oo 20:27:38 so i have to say 20:27:42 being drunk is really boring 20:28:56 being drunk occasionally makes the little things more fun 20:29:06 but you can't do the big things, because those require brain. 20:29:41 for instance i can never get myself to wash the dishes, but give me a bottle of vodka, and it becomes trivial. 20:29:51 lol 20:30:16 i mean boring in that the drug produces no fun mental or physical effects 20:30:17 but yes, being drunk isn't that much fun 20:30:23 yes 20:30:34 it usually just numbs you 20:30:42 at least that's the most noticeable effect 20:30:46 yeah, it was indeed numbing 20:30:57 the whole experience was much like DXM actually 20:31:04 only DXM eventually produces dissociation 20:31:21 i suspect alcohol might do that eventually too but i think it'd be too difficult for me to consume enough to do that 20:31:47 Maybe you should do drugs instead. 20:31:51 Winners do drugs. 20:31:51 i.. do? 20:32:23 WHAT DRUGS 20:32:34 TELL ME, MY FRIENDS IN THE PARTYVAN WOULD LIKE TO KNOW 20:32:44 YOU ENJOY PARTY, RIGHT? 20:32:55 ive done DXM the most, tried salvia, and tried lsd. the latter two never actually got anywhere D: 20:33:05 DXM? 20:33:25 Oh, cough syrup. 20:33:54 indeed 20:34:10 tho dont let that cause you to think it's trivial 20:34:18 DXM is essentially identical to Ketamine 20:34:25 in terms of effects 20:34:27 I could use some cough syrup myself 20:34:34 Not for drugs, though. I have a cold :( 20:34:46 psygnisfive: how much did you consume? 20:35:02 i usually drink 15-20 beers 20:35:07 if you plan on ever doing dxm, get cough gels. the syrups often have other crap that will destroy your liver. 20:35:23 oklofok: ehh 12-16 oz of 42% sambuca 20:35:30 (well used to, nowadays i don't really drink) 20:35:41 hmm 20:36:02 i have no idea how much that is in terms of beer, how much is 1 oz 20:36:43 1 US fluid ounce = 29.5735296 milliliters 20:37:09 okay so that's half a liter or smth 20:37:19 ok 20:37:50 "ok"? :P 20:38:01 "i believe you o great mathemagician" 20:38:31 :P 20:39:20 anyway that's a good dose if you aren't used to drinking, you should have experienced "being drunk" 20:39:31 i did 20:39:38 it just wasnt terribly interesting 20:39:42 i dont see what people get out of it 20:39:51 being with friends. 20:39:52 and i certainly dont see why they're so incompetent on it 20:40:00 im with friends all the time! 20:40:04 and i dont even need to get drunk! 20:40:10 you're not finnish. 20:40:17 you're right 20:40:20 "Imaginary friends don't count." 20:40:20 im a crazy linguist 20:40:23 I'm finnish. 20:40:24 and so are all my friends 20:40:30 Even though I was not born in Finland 20:40:34 Or from Finn parents. 20:40:42 Because Finn is a way of being, you see. 20:40:50 yes, definitely 20:41:00 if you understand that, you are automatically finnish. 20:41:17 Yay! 20:41:28 I hope I don't have to pay Finn taxes though 20:42:09 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:44:29 we don't have taxes here, every week we sacrifice a few hundred citizens (poison gas) and take their money 20:45:07 probably more than a few hundred, i'm not a politician 20:45:33 not politician, that other thing. 20:53:22 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:56:51 oh, drugs 20:57:30 i want to get my hands on some lsd 21:04:52 huh 21:05:01 * AnMaster read a bit of scrollback 21:05:04 made no sense 21:05:52 :D 21:10:19 guys 21:10:23 how do you say ? 21:10:45 two-pull 21:10:47 is the in the in or the in ? 21:10:55 Heh. 21:10:56 butt. 21:11:59 anyone else? 21:12:15 With /u/. 21:12:25 I would've used the butt variant, I think. 21:12:31 Although actually, I never use tuple. 21:12:36 I always say ordered pair. 21:12:47 what about a 5-tuple, slereah? 21:13:01 I think en:tuple is officially fi:monikko, which sort-of sucks, since that word has a lot more common meaning of en:plural. 21:13:01 ok so one for /u/, one for /V/ 21:13:10 and slereah doesn't say it 21:13:29 psygnisfive : You can build a 5-tuple with ordered pairs 21:13:33 wee i like how fizzie is using the language prefixes :D 21:13:44 slereah: i can build a 5-tuple out of your mother 21:13:46 whats your point 21:13:57 No you can't. 21:14:07 sure can 21:14:32 My pronunciation is not something anyone should draw any conclusions from, since it's mostly guesswork. The native English speakers should comment on this. 21:14:45 fizzie: i say the same as you 21:15:25 the pronunciation is optionally /u/ as in or /V/ as in 21:15:47 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqKb1P_RKKk 21:16:50 oh boy 21:17:50 this is hilarious 21:18:04 :) 21:18:19 i'm pretty sure psygnisfive was being sarcastic 21:18:20 psygnisfive: two-pull 21:19:20 actually i love it zuff 21:20:39 but that's a word i've never heard used (well probably have, but haven't paid attention) nor checked, because i haven't had to say it 21:21:21 been wanting to check it though, because both pronunciations sound possible to me 21:21:45 I've spoken "tuple" the way I'd read it as a Finnish word, when speaking otherwise-Finnish but needing that particular concept, because I don't think anyone seriously uses the translation. 21:22:04 I'm not sure I can explain that pronunciation, though; maybe oklofok could. 21:23:00 you mean you don't think anyone uses the word "tuple" in finnish? 21:23:14 I don't think anyone uses the word "monikko" for it, even though that's what my dictionaries give. 21:23:28 Except maybe some database people, they are freaky. 21:23:46 ah. 21:23:57 some of our lecturers use it 21:24:07 and i think the rest use english. 21:24:17 but otherwise i've only heard "tuple" 21:25:07 -!- Judofyr has quit. 21:26:35 poll: What project should I begin this xmas (apart from upgrading some servers and such that I have to do anyway): 1) Start learning haskell 2) Start working on a hobby OS (very basic, think, real mode only, very basic shell) 21:27:01 2) 21:27:03 because it is not 1) 21:27:04 note I may ask the same question elsewhere, and what I will decide may be based on several sources 21:27:07 write a hobby OS in haskell... in the type system! 21:27:20 lament: you really don't want to inflict AnMaster learning another functional language on us. 21:27:20 lament, hah, I think I will have to do 1 first then 21:27:25 please think of the kittens!! 21:27:35 i will personally kill 5 kittens if AnMaster chooses 1) 21:27:45 hm, yes, consider the kittens then 21:27:55 well I asked this question in another channel and got 5 "1" so far 21:27:59 well,* 21:28:18 and just 1 "2" 21:28:29 they're both fun 21:28:34 1 is easier, in the sense that it is achievable 21:28:35 Asztal: god damnit 21:28:37 i am dying here 21:28:43 please think of the kittens 21:28:47 Asztal, indeed, and I will probably try the other one later 21:28:52 2 is not really achievable, and even if you do achieve it, all you'll have for it will be a really shitty hobby OS. 21:28:55 haskell is better 21:28:55 after killing the kittens i will put them in the fucking lhc 21:28:59 and make them die 21:29:00 and the world will DIE 21:29:02 and AnMaster will DIE 21:29:07 and everything will STOP 21:29:10 dunno, a friend of mine recently made an os 21:29:12 and I will envelop the UNIVERSE 21:29:13 and it will DIE 21:29:18 I did 2 before 1, anyway. But I turned into a Ctard. 21:29:19 and I will KILL IT 21:29:21 lament, indeed, it would be like LFS, very interesting distro to install, and you learn a lot 21:29:24 but usable? no 21:29:25 can't be that hard 21:29:25 and I will KILL IT 21:29:29 AND I WILL KILL IT 21:29:41 one track mind 21:29:53 lament, well said 21:30:05 err, that may be a Swedishism 21:30:08 how is a working os not usable, all you need it brainfuck, irc and some kinda word processor 21:30:12 and you can code those in a minute 21:30:13 these kittens are eating my brain 21:30:18 i am ready to strangle them 21:30:20 oklofok, not so easy 21:30:34 I have investigated these questions a bit 21:30:51 and I will probably go for 1. but I don't know. 21:30:59 AnMaster: here's something to put you off: 21:31:05 Make an OS in Haskell! 21:31:07 AnMaster: http://learnyouahaskell.com/ 21:31:15 AnMaster: modern haskell is painful without compiler-specific extensions. 21:31:18 including major ones. 21:31:21 no standard! 21:31:30 * zuff watches AnMaster choke on his own breath 21:31:39 Don't do it AnMaster! 21:31:50 Beware of the monads! 21:32:02 AnMaster: it's easy. and you can't convince someone who doesn't know what he's talking about that he's wrong, so don't even try. 21:32:18 * Sgeo knows just enough haskell to make one stupid joke 21:32:44 hm? 21:32:52 also I'm going for 1 21:32:56 agh 21:32:58 /ignore AnMaster 21:33:02 let me know when the nuclear fallout is over 21:33:08 What did Goldilocks say upon seeing "Maybe (b -> Either a b)"? 21:33:09 wait! 21:33:17 scheme is said to be painful without compiler extensions 21:33:26 after using it: I disagree 21:33:27 /ignore zuff 21:33:28 it is fun that way 21:33:28 Sgeo: hehe 21:33:41 Funnily enough, in XChat, /ignore does not work that way 21:33:49 funnily enough, xchat sucks dick 21:34:20 There's an OS project course in at least our university; they do build and OS there, and it doesn't seem to be terribly difficult. Okay, so they do get some skeleton code provided, but still. 21:34:26 s/and/an/ 21:34:27 lament, is that "hehe" at the joke, or at /ignore zuff ? 21:34:32 AnMaster: with haskell, unlike with scheme, there's only one compiler 21:34:35 Sgeo: the joke 21:34:37 err 21:34:39 lament: no there isn't 21:34:44 ok, all the other ones suck 21:34:45 "It's Just Right" 21:34:48 and the interpreters suck 21:34:51 but :P 21:35:15 lament, indeed 21:35:26 lament, I use erlang too, there is just one implementation 21:35:42 lament: you are a really awful person. 21:37:48 Sgeo: what did she say? 21:37:59 zuff: i'm awfully real. 21:37:59 oklofok, "It's Just Right" 21:38:16 lament: yes. your continued existence is awful in light of recent events 21:38:37 http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Humor/Goldilocks 21:38:46 Sgeo: that page does not belong under Humor/ 21:39:05 also, that would be Maybe (Either a) 21:39:12 oh, wait 21:39:20 Right the actual constructor 21:39:40 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:39:52 Sgeo: ah. 21:42:49 also is zuff actually ignoring me? 21:42:51 oh well 21:45:56 you'll probably know right after i answer you 21:50:21 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:54:16 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:57:52 AnMaster: http://learnyouahaskell.com/ <-- thanks btw 21:58:01 "This tutorial is aimed at people who have experience in imperative programming languages (C, C++, Java, Python …) but haven't programmed in a functional language before (Haskell, ML, OCaml …)." 21:58:02 well 21:58:18 I do know scheme and erlang, but it will still be useful I'm sure 21:59:56 lament, I have already collected a small collection of links to Haskell tutorials 22:00:58 -!- Corun has joined. 22:01:13 learnyouahaskell is only good if you like cartoons and code examples involving calling people gay. 22:01:14 which i do. 22:01:30 ah not on ignore :) 22:01:43 yes on ignore. 22:01:45 i just checked the logs. 22:01:55 zuff, "real world haskell" looks quite interesting too 22:02:07 it's not a good intro. also, stop learning haskell. 22:02:07 he goes to great lengths to be able to read everything you say yet ignore you. 22:02:19 oklofok, indeed :D 22:02:21 he must love/hate you quite a lot. 22:02:34 oklofok: the ignoring is symbolic of my fiery hatred. 22:02:38 also what about the chicken 22:02:40 the reading is symbolic of my morbid curiosity. 22:02:57 zuff, suggestion: I don't ask you haskell questions, I ask someone else? 22:03:01 what about that 22:03:04 *shrug* 22:03:11 it's still in here :P 22:03:22 oh the answers will also be here then 22:03:28 so you don't get around it any way 22:04:00 in conclusion, fuck life 22:05:49 someone give me some rss feeds to subscribe too. I'm trying out google reader to further convince myself that rss sucks 22:06:20 i like google reader 22:06:52 it seems ok. the design made me puke though so i satisfied my inner wannabe typographer by installing http://helvetireader.com/ 22:06:55 zuff, I know some 22:07:39 AnMaster: http://learnyouahaskell.com/ 22:07:41 err 22:07:44 http://www.gentoo.org/rdf/en/gentoo-news.rdf 22:07:45 there 22:07:50 http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24812462-23109,00.html ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah 22:07:53 /insensitive 22:08:01 AnMaster: yeah it would help if I used gentoo 22:08:09 hm 22:08:42 http://book.realworldhaskell.org/feeds/comments/why-functional-programming-why-haskell/ 22:08:43 ? 22:09:01 why-haskell <- because you hate yourself 22:09:11 umm, why would I subscribe to the feed of comments on one section of a haskell book that I don't like all that much 22:09:20 speaking of RWH 22:09:26 i just got my copy yesterday 22:09:34 lament: but you hate haskell 22:09:56 zuff, hm was just random feed 22:10:25 * zuff adds his google reader feed to google reader, ending the universe 22:11:06 damn, it works properly 22:11:08 what a disappointment 22:11:44 i should make a blog just to subscribe to it 22:12:02 zuff, don't you already have a blog? 22:12:12 not as if I post to it or anything. 22:12:23 oh right 22:12:25 also, it's technically down. 22:12:31 ah 22:12:32 also, that's tusho's blog/ 22:12:35 not mine 22:12:37 ahha 22:12:38 or ehird's. 22:13:24 it occurs to me that I should probably just write yet another rss->email thing since I check my email often. 22:15:32 hmm. 22:15:38 that would be the _one single_ good use of html mail./ 22:16:45 crazy. 22:20:01 wellllll 22:20:10 it'd kind of suck in that you'd just get the title and source 22:20:16 instead of a summary of the article 22:20:19 in the list 22:25:38 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:26:52 zuff, I see why you like http://learnyouahaskell.com/introduction 22:26:53 :D 22:26:59 "Also, I think you can do Haskell development with that wacky mouse with one button, although I'm not sure." 22:27:12 yes yes I know macs have two nowdays 22:27:16 except on laptops 22:27:22 "congratulations you got the joke" 22:28:21 zuff, last I checked macbook and macbook pro still use single mouse button below the touchpad 22:30:22 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 22:36:30 ... 22:36:33 WRYYYYYYYYYY 22:36:38 Mathematica no works ;_; 22:37:20 Slereah, oh? 22:37:29 what are you trying to do? 22:37:39 I _may_ know some other software that does the same 22:37:49 AnMaster: that is really not helpful 22:38:01 zuff, oh? I was trying to be helpful 22:38:03 AnMaster : Convolutions. 22:38:04 nor was your suggesting of trying another editor when SimonRC (i think) had a minor problem with another 22:38:12 Slereah, ah hm, no idea 22:38:16 \!\( 22:38:17 \*SubsuperscriptBox[\(\[Integral]\), \(-\[Infinity]\), \ 22:38:17 \(\[Infinity]\)]\((HeavisideTheta[t - T]* 22:38:17 A)\)*\((HeavisideTheta[t - T - \[Tau]]*A)\) \[DifferentialD]t\) 22:38:40 Slereah, that looks like somewhat broken LaTeX notation? 22:38:50 no 22:38:52 that looks like mathematica. 22:39:04 oh 22:39:06 Yes. 22:39:15 Mathematica looks like that in the real world. 22:39:22 to me it looks somewhat similar to LaTeX 22:39:25 It only looks neato in Mathematica 22:39:39 yeah, in mathematica that \ stuff transforms into real-mathematical-equation looking 22:39:47 ah ok 22:39:49 right 22:39:55 * AnMaster notes it does in LaTeX 22:40:14 Well, it should answer a function. 22:40:19 But I get infinity. 22:40:22 example: LyX, has WYSIWYG LaTeX formula editor 22:40:23 heh 22:40:26 Slereah, :/ 22:40:40 And I really don't want to do it by hand 22:40:46 And I must give something back friday 23:13:50 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:26:33 I received this from a random ICQ person 23:26:35 364399558: Ïîäãîòîâüñÿ, äðóã! Òåáå ïîíàäîáèòñÿ âñå ñâîáîäíîå âðåìÿ, ÷òîáû ïåðåñìîòðåòü íåñêîí÷àåìûå ïîðíî ôèëüìû, êîòîðûå ìû ïðèïàñëè äëÿ òåáÿ! sex-gong(òî÷êà)ru 25879 23:26:44 Must be some sort of secret code! 23:28:26 -!- wumpus_ has joined. 23:28:32 hi 23:28:45 Hey dude. 23:29:11 howdy 23:29:12 probably iso-8859-5 23:30:48 probably cp1251 23:31:06 ПодготовьÑÑ, друг! Тебе понадобитÑÑ Ð²Ñе Ñвободное времÑ, чтобы переÑмотреть неÑкончаемые порно фильмы, которые мы припаÑли Ð´Ð»Ñ Ñ‚ÐµÐ±Ñ! sex-gong(точка)ru 23:31:23 yep 23:31:31 Sex gong. 23:31:46 I'm picturing russian men strinking gongs with their penises. 23:31:51 It's a million dollar idea. 23:34:22 sounds like something russian men would do 23:34:41 Well, it's Russia, they probably don't have the internet 23:34:45 You've got to pass the time 23:35:17 Vodkadoes help 23:36:15 hi wumpus_ 23:36:18 you new here? :P 23:36:38 yep 23:36:56 sacrificed some goats already? 23:37:23 You smell a wumpus_ nearby. 23:37:24 Humans are also accepted. 23:37:35 nope, but I beat up my dog regularly :-) 23:38:03 Is it a puppy? 23:38:11 no 23:38:18 Not good enough then. 23:38:36 it s a St. Bernhard 23:38:50 that is good enough 23:38:53 Nah. 23:38:57 They're not cute. 23:39:02 They're mops. 23:39:10 Barely alive§ 23:39:10 ! 23:39:12 ok next time it's your turn :-) 23:39:26 lol 23:40:10 I will rape your dog. 23:40:43 you are really brave Slereah 23:41:30 That's all in a days work. 23:41:36 lol 23:41:38 /topic #dogabuse 23:43:33 what's up around here 23:43:41 not much. 23:44:04 hello wumpus_, welcome to #esoteric 23:44:16 lament here is your channel cofounder 23:44:31 we're a small multinational community dedicated to designing a programming language centered around sexual abuse of domestic animals 23:44:40 naturally 23:44:42 hi lament, you are also a fan fan of those BSD-games? 23:44:52 You don't want to know how to write a cat program! 23:44:57 *rimshot* 23:45:01 groan 23:45:30 my fortune-software started today with some ways to skin a cat 23:46:56 so you are dealing with Satanic Code 23:49:13 It's really a bitch to type pentagrams. 23:50:16 I expected there to be a pentagram in unicode, but sadly no :( 23:51:32 perhaps you did not mumble the right mantras while programming 23:54:14 http://www3.waterstones.com/wat/images/nbd/l/20/9780099403357.jpg 23:54:18 Fuck. 23:54:21 in Satanic Code, typing a pentagram is pretty easy: data Pentagram = Pentagram Point Point Point Point Point 23:54:24 Adaptation decay 23:54:26 TO THE MAX :o 23:57:18 that doesn't look like an inverted pentagram to me! 23:57:54 -!- wumpus_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:58:23 lament: pfft, you are not using Pan! 23:58:29 type Image a = Point -> a 23:58:38 type Point = (Float, Float) 23:59:34 You are not using pants 23:59:42 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 2008-12-17: 00:06:14 checkerboard (x,y) 00:06:14 | even x = if even y then white else black 00:06:16 | odd x = if even y then black else white 00:06:18 haskell is pretty. 00:06:29 so ugly 00:06:32 disgusting code 00:06:36 lament: how is that ugly 00:06:39 that's lovely code 00:06:45 the dimensionality is hard-coded right in 00:06:50 wat 00:06:59 lament: whaddya mean 00:07:00 Haskel is pig disgusting 00:07:04 Monad is murderer 00:07:06 makes me puke 00:07:11 lament: wat 00:07:14 Slereah: lol 00:07:27 zuff: it's a 2d checkerboard, and it's dimensionality is actually part of the program logic 00:07:34 dimensionality? 00:07:42 the fact it's 2d 00:07:44 yes 00:07:45 ah. 00:07:48 well, so? 00:07:54 it's a 2d checkerboard 00:07:57 in a library for 2d images. 00:07:57 zuff: that's lack of modularity 00:08:03 if you have something like 00:08:04 you're all bonkers 00:08:08 lament's point is you can't really generalize it. 00:08:14 well duh 00:08:15 of course you can't 00:08:16 struct point { int x, y } 00:08:19 then that's 2d 00:08:23 but at least it's easy to add z 00:08:33 and adjust whatever formulas 00:08:59 but in your scenario the dimensionality is stuck right into "if even y then white else black" in a non-trivial way! 00:09:20 well yeah but that's not a haskell issue on the other hand 00:09:39 i just wanted to insult zuff's code 00:09:39 you could (even x+y) it, and get over that 00:09:42 ah 00:09:44 to which i have no real complaints 00:09:48 thought you wanted to insult haskell. 00:09:54 but yeah, even(x+y) is way better 00:10:07 and then even . sum 00:10:08 well, you can't even use even/odd on a Double 00:10:14 as I have just discovered. 00:10:23 checkerboard (x,y) = if even(x+y) then white else black 00:10:27 well yes 00:10:42 (even . sum) ? white : black 00:10:47 ugh 00:10:49 checkerboard :: ImageC 00:10:49 checkerboard (x,y) 00:10:50 | even (x+y) = white 00:10:52 | otherwise = black 00:11:07 now to figure out why you can't uyse even/odd on floats/doubles :D 00:11:14 well I guess I could just round it 00:11:17 because haskell sucks 00:11:25 so does your mom 00:11:30 zuff: why could you? 00:11:46 well why couldn't you 00:11:46 even with modulus 00:11:56 even with modulus defined for doubles, even doesn't really make that much sense 00:12:08 modulus SHOULD be defined for doubles 00:12:11 well i guess there's an obvious definition 00:12:14 and i ranted in #haskell for days about that 00:12:17 lament: naturally. 00:12:26 but even/odd clearly makes no sense for them 00:12:29 i actually haskelled assume does that already 00:12:38 lament: stop stealing my thoughts. 00:12:44 welp 00:12:45 checkerboard :: ImageC 00:12:46 checkerboard (x,y) 00:12:48 | even (floor x + floor y) = white 00:12:50 | otherwise = black 00:12:52 still pretty as hell 00:13:35 what type is white? 00:13:43 Colour 00:13:45 type Colour = (Int,Int,Int) 00:13:49 r,g,b 00:13:56 type Image a = Point -> a 00:13:56 type ImageC = Image Colour 00:13:58 type Point = (Double,Double) 00:14:00 type Colour = (Int,Int,Int) 00:14:22 looks okay to me 00:14:53 and yeah you should round the coords if you're using it like that 00:15:13 but you shouldn't think that's the obvious definition for even for doubles. 00:15:20 well yea 00:15:21 still 00:15:53 i do agree even should be defined for doubles *somehow*, oklotalk defines everything, and it's pretty much perfect so haskell probably should do. 00:16:05 *should too 00:16:07 you mean 00:16:24 all values should be of one type, and all functions should be total? 00:16:31 lament: yes! 00:16:39 and all possible function names should be defined? 00:16:44 yes! 00:16:47 hm 00:16:52 consider using Jot :) 00:16:58 and all possible program codes should be parseable. 00:17:03 yeah, Jot 00:17:08 also oklotalk 00:17:12 isn't jot stack-based 00:17:14 that's cheating 00:17:30 joy is stack-based 00:17:37 is "}" valid in jot? of course i'm making an additional guess here 00:17:45 jot only has two operations, 0 and 1 00:17:46 or... 00:17:49 OH 00:17:51 that jot :P 00:18:06 render :: Integer -> Integer -> ImageC -> [[Colour]] 00:18:06 render w h img = map (\x -> map (img . (,) x) [0..h']) [0..w'] 00:18:08 where h' = fromInteger h 00:18:10 w' = fromInteger w 00:18:12 soooooo prettyyyyyyy 00:18:29 yeah sorry i wasn't thinking esolangs, because in esolangs it isn't really much to ask to have everything defined 00:18:34 hmm 00:18:36 that fails a bit 00:18:39 you can just use the brainfuck card 00:18:43 it's n+1 00:18:49 i should get back to reading 00:19:03 render :: Integer -> Integer -> ImageC -> [[Colour]] 00:19:03 render w h img = map (\x -> map (img . (,) x) [0..h']) [0..w'] 00:19:04 where h' = fromInteger h - 1 00:19:06 w' = fromInteger w - 1 00:19:13 it would probably look much more readable as a list comprehension 00:19:21 it looks fine to me 00:19:22 but maybe 00:19:27 but damn, that's the first pretty haskell I've written 00:19:30 it's just >clicked< 00:19:40 Integer -> Integer, here you are setting an arbitrary currying order for w and h, HOW IS THAT GOOD CODING? 00:19:44 * zuff writes scale :: Float -> Image a -> Image a 00:19:46 oklofok: lol 00:19:57 wait 00:20:01 I don't even need an ImageC requirement ther 00:20:10 render :: Integer -> Integer -> Image a -> [[a]] 00:20:10 render w h img = map (\x -> map (img . (,) x) [0..h']) [0..w'] 00:20:12 where h' = fromInteger h - 1 00:20:14 w' = fromInteger w - 1 00:20:35 oklofok: yeah, and in another function he used a tuple for the same thing 00:20:51 no 00:20:52 i didn't 00:20:55 (x,y) is a point 00:21:00 width and height are rendering details 00:21:14 you should be able to pass around points 00:21:21 but apssing around a width/height combination is useless it's just for rendering 00:21:34 lament: yes, my second point, but i assumed you'd fill that out for me 00:21:46 zuff: how often do you pass around just a width or just a height? 00:21:57 maybe you need a RenderingDetails datatype? 00:22:05 :D 00:22:11 lament: just in render :P 00:22:16 i love being over-pedantic about code 00:22:27 scale :: Double -> Image a -> Image a 00:22:27 scale n img (x,y) = img (x/n, y/n) 00:22:29 wow, that was trivial 00:23:02 seriously 00:23:03 that worked first try 00:23:32 hmm 00:23:36 should I make colours doubles too? :P 00:23:37 Naw. 00:24:01 multiplication is pretty hard to get correct given a multiplication primitive, yes :P 00:24:21 lol 00:24:56 if you're working on reals, scaling is trivial. it's only algorithmically interesting when working with discrete images. 00:25:11 if you're working with reals, you get scaling straight from the definition of scaling 00:25:12 which you did. 00:25:17 well yeah 00:25:21 however 00:25:23 my rendering is discrete 00:25:26 i should read, i have an exam in 6.5 hours 00:25:28 but it just calls as N.0 00:25:43 and i haven't read about my hintikka sets yet! 00:25:55 hmm 00:25:59 oklofok: do you know how to write out bmps? 00:26:08 you mean the format? 00:26:13 ya 00:26:24 header, list of bgr iirc 00:26:34 just byte after another 00:27:20 header is the standard microsoft stupid_blah_here, sizes and file lengths, just look it up 00:27:31 helfpul 00:27:39 it is very simple 00:27:46 it's so easy you don't need help, is my point 00:27:47 not as simple as TGA, but simple 00:28:00 oh, tga is simpler? 00:28:09 * zuff looks up tga instead 00:28:23 i don't even know tga :) 00:28:44 easier for writing to, anyway, IIRC 00:28:54 ok, a tutorial that isn't a spec? :D 00:30:50 for bmp you don't need a tutorial 00:31:04 oklofok: well explain it 00:31:32 i don't remember, i reverse-engineered the format from the hex, it's just a few bytes of header, only things that are dynamic are (w,h), and file length 00:31:52 i was like your age back then, so show some balls :P 00:31:59 * oklofok leaves quickly! 00:32:16 and also there is a restriction that the rows of the bitmap must be padded to be 4-byte aligned 00:32:38 this i didn't know, but yeah figures 01:51:31 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:01:37 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 02:09:09 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 02:22:10 renderTGA "blah.tga" (0,0) (256,256) (256,256) . supersample (0.25,0.25) . magnify 16 . rotateImage 0.4 origin $ checkerboard red white 02:22:12 fun :) 02:22:26 (kind of slow here, though) 03:24:46 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:50:46 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 07:48:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:54:49 Don't worry it's mostly perfectly innocent apart from the one bit which is all of it. 07:54:54 how reassuring. 07:56:53 -!- Judofyr has joined. 07:57:03 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:57:46 -!- Judofyr has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:04:14 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:04:36 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 08:10:29 -!- Judofyr has quit. 09:05:51 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 09:28:39 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 12:50:18 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird. 12:56:56 12:51 psygnisfive has joined (n=psygnisf@c-71-57-164-119.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) 12:56:56 12:51 Asztal: renderTGA "blah.tga" (0,0) (256,256) (256,256) . supersample (0.25,0.25) . magnify 16 . rotateImage 0.4 origin $ checkerboard red white 12:56:58 12:51 Asztal: fun :) 12:57:00 12:51 Asztal: (kind of slow here, though) 12:57:11 What is it with asztal and MizardX stealing everyone else's ideas? :P 13:42:28 graph :: [Integer] -> ImageC 13:42:28 graph lst (x,y) | (lst `genericIndex` floor x) > floor y = black 13:42:29 | otherwise = white 13:42:31 graph, but the wrong way around 13:42:37 (vertiaclly) 13:53:47 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:33:25 -!- jix has joined. 14:35:29 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:46:19 -!- Asztal has joined. 14:48:17 hey, I wasn't stealing it, I was borrowing it 14:49:43 Yeah, but you both then take the idea and finish it while the creator sleeps. :-P 14:50:00 I'm impatient :D 14:50:31 * ehird rm Image.hs 14:50:33 you could build a raytracer out of this quite easily, too :) 15:05:34 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:06:18 Is anyone here willing to quickly aid someone (me) struggling with a bit of horrible C++ (that is, all C++ is horrible) 15:07:23 Why C++? Why god why? :P 15:08:46 Indeed - irrlicht is why, and I'm useless with Ogre, so my options are limited 15:08:53 I'm already barely able to hack some C. 15:09:27 Why doth the heavans punish us so? 15:12:50 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 15:14:57 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:44:06 -!- Slereah has quit. 16:05:51 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:15:01 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 16:43:21 Deewiant, there? 16:43:33 aye 16:43:35 I was going to implement DATE, but I'm unsure of the rcs specs 16:43:40 unsurprising 16:43:48 Mycology tests it, no? 16:43:58 Deewiant, indeed and you implement it 16:44:04 it's more precise than the specs, unless Mike changed the specs 16:44:19 I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't amend them 16:44:28 hm 16:44:31 more precise how? 16:45:03 tests some things which Mike accepted (read: I made Mike accept) as correct but weren't explicitly in the spec 16:45:14 heh 16:45:33 jd == julian day it says 16:45:39 but that doesn't tell me much 16:45:45 how is it defined 16:45:48 wikipedia 16:46:21 "The Julian date (JD) is the interval of time in days and fractions of a day, since January 1, 4713 BC Greenwich noon, Julian proleptic calendar.[1]" 16:46:21 ok 16:46:27 so it pushes in FPDP format? 16:46:30 since it says fraction 16:46:33 Deewiant: "So if I edit the Wikipedia page, the definition changes?" :p 16:46:41 fizzie: yeah, exactly 16:46:50 AnMaster: nah, I can't remember exactly 16:47:02 probably in days so you ignore the fraction 16:47:03 If it says "julian day", it's probably just the day number without the fractional part. 16:47:29 Deewiant, damn you use tango instead of calculating it yourself 16:47:43 if you have to consider leap years this seems painful in plain C 16:48:04 I did about half of it myself and then realized that I can just use tango directly 16:48:25 duh 16:48:45 :/ 16:48:51 Wikipedia has a calculation formula too. 16:49:00 If you trust it! I see no citations there! 16:49:05 heh 16:49:12 I think it gave a wrong answer which is why I turned to tango 16:49:13 we will see if mycology agrees 16:49:20 I probably misimplemented it though 16:49:25 too many variables 16:52:05 assuming roughly 365 days / year... (4713 + 2008) * 365... probably ~ 2453000 or so 16:52:18 yes I know that is way off, like leap years, no year zero, and so on 16:52:52 seems like a painful date representation for everyday use 16:54:07 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 16:54:52 It's certainly nicer to calculate with than Gregorian dates; the numbers are just too big to be human-friendly. 16:57:21 Also it has a huge drawback in that the nice round-number celebrations will not occur during my lifetime; 2.4*10^6 was in 1858, and 2.5*10^6 will be in 2132. Well, I guess I can't be sure about that latter one, but I think I'll be a bit surprised if I'm still alive then. 16:59:56 You probably won't be surprised then, if you are; you would be now, if you found out that you will be 17:00:33 Let's hope I remember to comment about it on the channel in 2132. 17:01:06 At least the Unix time counts seconds, so there are more excuses to celebrate. 1.25*10^9 is next August, for example. 17:03:49 fizzie, hehe 17:03:57 anyway you should celebrate powers of two 17:03:59 not of 10 17:04:03 for unix date 17:06:25 The 2^30th went already, and there's still some time before the year 2038 problem. Still, I might even be alive for that one, that's only 30 years to go. 17:09:02 I will definitely be alive for that one. :P 17:09:27 And most likely using a 64-bit computer and OS, you know, like os x 10.6. :P 17:09:34 Not if someone KILLS YOU. Not that I'm planning anything. 17:09:42 tru 17:09:44 throw new Object; 17:09:46 interesting decipher 17:09:48 err 17:09:49 Deewiant, ^ 17:09:52 sorry for mistab 17:10:02 throw new Knife(destination = AnMaster); 17:10:50 yeah, what ehird said :-P 17:11:50 except Knife, k: print "it's not nice to throw knives at %s" % k.destination 17:12:27 whoa 17:12:28 python++ 17:12:28 XD 17:12:33 it's c++ and python! 17:12:33 horrid 17:12:51 `catch` \(k :: Knife) -> printf "You hit %s. He collapses, blood pouring out of the wound." 17:13:08 ehird 17:13:12 psygnisfive 17:13:20 why were you quoting my signin? 17:13:25 wat 17:13:26 The named parameter in the throw just reminded me of Python; since that's not C++. 17:14:00 12:51 psygnisfive has joined (n=psygnisf@c-71-57-164-119.hsd1.fl.comcast.net 17:14:08 o.o 17:16:34 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:16:39 o.o 17:28:23 -!- jix has joined. 17:32:18 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 17:50:58 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:14:04 LOL KITTENS PWNS!!! 18:14:06 Discuss. 18:22:32 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:25:05 No. 18:25:07 Deewiant, hm I found some internal code in glibc that seems to solve one of the major issues 18:25:12 for generic dates 18:25:23 well license is ok so :) 18:25:39 AnMaster: have you learned haskell yet? 18:25:51 lament, xmas holidays haven't started yet 18:27:40 that's ok. You have two hours. 18:27:54 The deadline has been moved, you see. 18:28:50 lament, no 18:29:02 and I wanted to learn it for fun 18:29:08 and still want 18:32:36 I think I can recommend Real World Haskell 18:32:40 as the tutorial 18:32:50 it does seem to be good 18:33:03 (i'm just reading it myself) 18:33:09 learn you a haskell 18:33:11 end of. 18:33:15 then go on to rwh 18:33:26 lyah teaches you what haskell's about, rwh tells you how to write programs with it. 18:35:17 no 18:35:19 i mean 18:35:25 rwh starts from scratch 18:35:34 there's no need for another tutorial beforehand 18:35:34 I know it does. 18:35:41 But LYAH is a way better introductory tutorial. 18:35:50 if you're a child with ADHD. 18:35:54 which you are. 18:35:59 I don't have ADHD. 18:36:09 oh. 18:36:32 But regardless of any ridiculous cartoons to the side LYAH is nicely paced, simple but not condescending, and explains the concepts nicely. 18:36:40 real world haskell is then useful to learn how to write real programs in hs. 18:36:57 sure 18:37:14 it seems so far, though, that RWH is nicely paced, simple but not condescending, and explains the concepts nicely. 18:37:25 you already knew a lot of haskell, though. 18:37:52 also, when there are two equal options and one has badly drawn elephants, the latter one wins out. 18:38:22 Deewiant, why are there several literal � in mycology in the DATE code? 18:38:36 some sort of non-printable char 18:39:46 I don't think there are any non-printable chars, I avoid those 18:39:52 but there will be non-ASCII bytes 18:40:14 just a handy way of pushing values in the range 0-255 18:41:44 Deewiant, hm invalid in utf8 I believe 18:41:52 duh? 18:42:02 what makes you think it's UTF-8 :-P 18:42:20 and why would I be so stupid as to use UTF-8 in Befunge-98 code 18:42:28 true 18:42:31 especially in Mycology - how UTF-8 works at the Funge-Space level is UNDEF 18:42:35 but irritating when editor is set to it 18:42:42 set editor to autodetect 18:42:51 if editor can't, change editor 18:42:52 goto 10 18:43:00 Deewiant, well an interpreter could potentially interpret any non-ascii as utf8 then 18:43:12 or whatever 18:43:20 what 18:43:29 The Funge character set is 'display-independent.' That is to say, character #417 may look like a squiggle on system Foo and a happy face on system Bar, but the meaning is always the same to Funge, 'character #417', regardless of what it looks like. 18:43:46 it's not UNDEF, brain fart 18:43:56 Deewiant, well you said it was 18:44:02 indeed it isn't 18:44:02 it's not UNDEF, brain fart 18:46:33 Well, it still doesn't sound portable to use characters as "a handy way of pushing values", especially in the >127 range, if no-one says you need to load the program as bytes. 18:46:46 It does say, which is my point. 18:47:56 It *doesn't* say an interpreter couldn't read the input as UTF-8, still. 18:49:03 I think it's a matter of how literally you take the spec and how portable you want to be 18:49:09 It just says the source files are made of characters, and characters have some associated numbers. 18:50:07 And it especially allows for having characters greater than 255; to me it doesn't sound too far-fetched to read in UTF-8 encoded source files. 18:50:09 It also says that on systems where characters are single-byte, the values are in the range 0-255 18:50:28 And the way I see it characters are single-byte on all modern systems; UTF-8 is just an encoding on top of that 18:50:44 The fundamental unit of storage on modern OSs is the byte (besides the bit) 18:50:58 It could still be argued that "characters" are stored in multiple (a variable amount of) bytes. 18:51:59 And thus we come to how literally you want to read it and what meaning you ascribe to "system" :-) 18:52:26 Sounds like discussion I had on this channel some time ago... :-) 18:52:29 Not that I care too much. But I think some Java-based Funge-98 core I wrote for one purpose or another used the character-based IO routines (especially since the spec says source files contain "characters"), which use the platform's default encoding for actual file-reading, which most likely is UTF-8. 18:52:43 On Windows it most likely won't be UTF-8 18:53:01 It'll most likely be locale-dependent (in europe, Windows-1252) or UTF-16BE 18:53:29 s/most likely is/might well be/, if you want to nit-pick; that's just a detail. 18:53:40 -!- Asztal has joined. 18:54:22 True. I guess I was jabbing at the fact that that code will work differently on different systems, which is generally a Bad Thing 18:55:24 Some could argue it's a Good Thing that it reads character-based text files the way the user expects them to be read, though. I don't have a firm onion on this. 18:55:51 I guess it's the interpreter's user's responsibility to feed it sources in an acceptable format, anyway. 18:56:18 Yeah, I should think so. 18:57:13 And what about saving parts of funge-space? Some values are invalid as unicode codepoints, and some values exceed even what the original up-to-6-bytes UTF-8 can represent. 18:59:00 Unicode-invalid values including anything that's negative; I guess it's again rather undefined. 19:00:43 Presumably one could take as requirement that funge could dump anything funge-space might contain and can read its own dumps... 19:01:33 But "o" is defined in terms of "text files"; and anyway I don't think current interpreters make it so that 'o' followed by 'i' doesn't mess anything up. 19:03:22 Since the spec speaks of "text files", so I guess you could even map all invalid codepoints to U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER and claim to be conforming. The FILE fingerprint operations are more sensible anyway if you want to do "binary IO", whatever that means. At least the spec there (currently, anyway) sort-of says that W/R deal with values in the [0, 255] range and strip away higher bits. 19:03:47 Oh, and I see the current spec for FILE has added a 'D' "Delete specified file" command. That wasn't there the last time I looked. 19:04:50 It was one of Mike's early additions. 19:05:33 Well, maybe it was there the last I looked, then, but it just didn't register. 19:27:13 I'm trying to write a program that will reliably thrash the memory cache so I can test how long a cache miss takes. 19:27:43 To do this, I'm allocating 128MB of memory, then stepping through a page at a time and doing nothing with it (but calling a function that the compiler can't know does nothing), then doing the same but stepping an int at a time. 19:28:00 Hypothetically, the second time around it should always be in the cache, so should almost always be faster. 19:28:03 But noooooooooo. 19:28:10 (Oh, I'm stepping 1,000,000 times either way) 19:33:42 Ah, well I'm an idiot. 19:33:49 Bump it to a billion and suddenly I'm seeing giant differences :P 19:34:40 On my Core 2 quad, a cache miss costs on average 2.705207e-08 seconds (27 nanoseconds) 19:36:19 To put that into perspective, light travels about 8 metres in that time. (Okay, so it doesn't really provide any sort of perspective; it's still nifty.) 19:37:16 Conclusions: light is slow as molasses. 19:38:13 lol 19:55:52 GregorR: You really can determine it to that many signaficant digits? 19:56:26 No, but it came consistently to something around 27nanoseconds for three runs. 19:56:37 (That is, it always rounds to 27 nanoseconds) 20:02:29 Does that test somehow preclude fist access to each cacheline from missing? 20:12:54 If time it takes to perform fetch that always misses is x and y for fetch where every nth acess misses, the miss penalty is not x - y, but n/(n-1) * (x - y), a relative error of -1/n. That's about 6% for n=16... 20:17:32 Touché. 20:35:49 Well now I'm confused. 20:36:26 I made some changes (amongst them, now the int-at-a-time loop actually just loops between [0] and [1]), and now the results I'm getting suggest that it takes only double as much time on a cache miss as a cache hit. 20:36:30 That can't be right. 20:37:29 Unless I have an absurdly massive L2 cache I'm ignoring ... 20:41:07 (And no, it's not that absurdly large :P ) 20:47:58 Maybe your processor designer has just been more clever than you. 21:22:20 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:33:43 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:43:29 exec cmd "echo 'Hello world!' >> /dev/null" 21:46:30 cmd and /dev/null? 21:47:08 i'm chatting with /dev/null :) 21:57:24 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:10:02 -!- Asztal has joined. 22:44:06 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:42:15 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:43:39 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:45:19 nethack is 247760 fucking lines of code? 23:45:21 holy shit. 23:49:25 note to self: re-aquaint with nethack instead of working today 23:50:01 Dewi: Hi Deewiant-- 23:50:19 I'm just Dewi 23:50:41 if you don't like that name you can be (name = "Deewiant"; name[:3] + name[3:5]) 23:51:28 oh crap they are testing me 23:51:43 * Dewi doesn't get the notation, sorry 23:51:59 python 23:51:59 :P 23:52:04 indexing from 1 or 0 ? 23:52:09 0 23:52:18 second param absolute or relative? 23:52:26 or should I say operand 23:54:02 relative 23:54:05 err 23:54:06 absolute 23:54:17 i'm relatively sure it's absolute 23:54:28 http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Objectivist_C 23:54:40 but i can't absolutely rule out relative either 23:56:42 A = A >:| 23:57:03 Dude. 23:57:15 I had the idea for an objectivist language before! 23:57:17 THEFT! 23:57:24 (cur) (last) 00:53, 21 December 2005 IMed (Talk | contribs) (New article) 23:57:34 only change since: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/index.php?title=Objectivist_C&diff=1907626&oldid=447901 23:57:38 wait... 23:57:40 .wikia.com? 23:57:42 fuck wikia 23:57:44 they take over everything 23:57:57 they have to fucking put their fucking grubby hands on every wiki 23:58:05 first it's hosting, then it's a bunch of ads, a new theme, let's take over your domain 23:58:07 pieces of shit. 23:59:58 My hair forms haircicles. 2008-12-18: 00:02:27 you might want to wash it more often than once a month, then 00:10:43 You realize the unbelievably huge flaw in your logic, right? 00:12:20 Well, I'll point it out then :P 00:12:26 They're literal hair icicles. 00:12:34 The problem is that when I wash my hair I don't dry it well enough. 00:12:39 So the remaining water freezes. 00:14:38 ah 00:15:19 and yes, i realized the unbelievably huge flaw in your logic, right. 00:15:24 i mean my 00:15:29 darn copy/paste 00:22:04 -!- Judofyr has joined. 01:05:23 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 01:14:58 GregorR: he said 'wash', he didn't mean with water 01:15:06 With urine 01:15:25 lava cleans off everything 01:15:41 Nah, it leaves ashes and shit 01:15:44 and definitely cures icicles 01:15:53 What you want is some antimatter beam 01:15:59 ah right 01:24:32 Everything can be cleaned using a fingernail. 01:25:07 yes. 01:25:20 although sometimes the fingernail doesn't survive. 01:25:47 Even radioactive wastes? 01:25:56 yes. 01:26:00 Radioactivity is insignificant. 01:26:10 i never mentioned whether the _rest_ of you survive, either. 01:26:11 It'll behave just the same chemically. 01:26:45 Yes. 01:26:47 Like lead. 01:26:52 That sounds healthy. 01:27:10 If a drop of wax gets on a piece of metal, it can be removed using a fingernail. If a drop of metal gets on a piece of wax, it can be removed using a fingernail. 01:27:18 lead is not unhealthy. as long as you don't lick your fingernail afterward. 01:27:53 oh wait i realized one thing that cannot be cleaned with a fingernail. 01:27:58 a blackboard. 01:28:05 just the thought makes me shiver. 01:28:11 But saliva dissolves chalk. I think. 01:28:22 It also dissolves everything that could possibly be on something. 01:28:27 possibly. 01:28:49 What if you drop metal on metal? 01:28:52 If the laptop you're using has gotten crusty, saliva will dissolve the crust. 01:28:52 Like, you know 01:28:55 MELTED METAL 01:29:11 If a drop of metal gets on a piece of metal, you'll probably be able to remove it just fine. 01:29:19 Especially if the piece of metal was dusty. 01:29:30 thus, always keep your laptop covered in a thin layer of saliva. 01:29:40 Of course. 01:30:36 Serious question: how come saliva seems to dissolve suckers so much more effectively than water? 01:31:11 Because enzymes, I assume 01:32:48 Do the enzymes just shove the sugar particles into the water? 01:32:59 Or do they actually do something chemical? 01:33:12 They break down some long-chained molecules, IIRC 01:33:39 Do suckers contain any of those? 01:33:59 I don't know, SUCKER 01:34:03 *rimshot* 01:34:04 I guess Wikipedia says they're "sucrose with corn syrup". 01:36:46 Still all sugar. 01:37:02 Delicious sugar 01:38:32 * Slereah_ waits for Warrigal to ask how many licks to get to the center of it next 01:40:57 * Warrigal waits for Slereah_ to stop waiting 01:41:17 * oerjan attempts to dissolve Warrigal with saliva 01:41:19 THEN ASK, AND THE WAIT WILL BE OVER 01:41:25 oerjan : Gay 01:41:37 you don't say 01:41:53 Slereah_: you just claimed he was a sucker. the experiment needs to be done. 01:41:54 Yes I do. 01:42:22 That excuse won't work when your mom finds out! 01:51:09 Nothing can dissolve protein. 01:51:20 And I'm covered in protein, so I'm indestructible. 01:51:36 Try acid, you'll see mister invincible 01:52:35 I can't imagine dissolving much in LSD. 01:52:42 Which, as you know, is the only acid. 01:52:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoroantimonic_acid 01:52:53 Try that nigger 01:52:54 i want some lsd 01:53:00 Apart from amino acids, obviously. 01:53:27 "The 1:1 combination affords the strongest known superacid, which has been demonstrated to protonate even hydrocarbons to afford carbocations and H2." 01:53:29 :D 01:54:04 "HF-SbF5 is rapidly and explosively decomposed by water." 01:54:05 Heh. 01:54:16 But proteins are made of amino acids, and everyone knows acids don't react with acids. 01:55:10 Actually, it can even disolve sulfuric acid 01:55:27 It's one tough motherfucker 01:56:04 * oerjan drops a bottle of antacids on Warrigal and watches his proteins dissolve 01:56:30 ANTS D: 01:57:18 Ah, but you've forgotten I've developed an immunity to antacids by chewing two tablets twice daily. 01:58:10 I developed an immunity to bullets by shooting myself daily 01:59:18 Too bad it's impossible to develop an immunity to death. 01:59:19 Warrigal: good luck with your Milk-alkali syndrome and/or alkalosis 02:00:08 Holding one's breath is a sure cure for alkalosis. The oxygen converts to carbonic acid, neutralizing any bases in the bloodstream. 02:00:13 Or there are too many bases and you die instead. 02:07:41 -!- MizardX has quit ("reboot"). 02:09:41 always cover all your bases 02:10:25 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:11:30 -!- MizardX has joined. 02:13:12 How are they supposed to react with anything if I do that? 02:13:22 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:14:17 well, basically, they cannot. but i thought that's what you wanted. 02:27:09 ais523: you there? 02:27:37 unlikely at this time, i know 02:53:26 -!- oerjan has quit ("ribbit, er, reboot"). 02:57:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:08:14 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:08:08 -!- Judofyr has joined. 05:14:55 I'm thinking of making a metawiki. Basically, it acts like a wiki but directly edits files in its own directory. Maybe I've already mentioned this here :P 05:15:48 wat 05:16:02 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 05:28:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 05:31:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 06:15:43 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:30:39 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 06:52:17 I should sell Moxie to my friends who aren't willing to buy it in cases. 06:52:26 Then I'd be a Moxie proxy LAWL 06:52:29 * GregorR goes to sleep. 07:03:05 so guys 07:03:09 whats up 07:03:13 anything good? 07:16:52 -!- moozilla has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:43:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 09:37:45 -!- Mony has joined. 09:38:42 plop 09:51:59 -!- Asztal has joined. 10:46:14 ooooo 10:52:07 -!- Judofyr has joined. 10:56:22 why should Dewi be Deewi? 10:56:38 why not ? :) 10:57:26 i was just wondering whether ehird made a mistake, which would let me lecture him about semiopen intervals. 10:58:10 Yes, it seemed like a curiously difficult way of saying [:5]. 10:58:27 (a one-sentence lecture) 10:58:32 yes. 11:03:30 oklofok: Did you have some great channel suggestions to join for oh-so-interesting reading, in addition to this one here? 11:03:38 -!- metazilla has joined. 11:03:44 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 11:04:24 anyway a clear warning sign should've been, if that was an error, that one of the reasons for using a semiopen interval is exactly so you can get continuous intervals [a, c) by catenating [a, b) [b, c) 11:05:05 which makes it a bit more "high-level", in some sense, because you have to do less "index-fiddling" 11:06:44 fizzie: the only channels i read for fun are this one, #algorithms, #ai, #proglangdesign, #haskell and #not-math 11:06:53 but i'm not saying any of them is that interesting. 11:07:05 #algorithms is really the only one where i actually contribute 11:07:12 oh and also #lojban, but you wouldn't care 11:08:28 "If you learned to speak Lojban, your communication would be completely unambiguous and logical." "Yeah, but it would all be with the kind of people who learn Lojban." 11:08:38 :) 11:09:44 that's pretty much the kind of people i want to have conversations with. 11:10:17 except not so much "people who learn lojban", but "people who wouldn't be opposed to learning lojban just because the user base consists of geeks" 11:10:53 then again, i don't learn languages so i can use them, so wouldn't be a good argument anyway 11:11:10 (same with programming languages, i know tons, but i just use python :)) 11:12:51 -!- moozilla has joined. 11:13:07 anyway, somewhat sadly, this is the only channel i've followed actively since i joined freenode, dunno why, maybe it was so often on-topic when i first got here ;) 11:13:43 nowadays i just know all the actives, so the social porn is enough to make everything interesting 11:13:58 (except the unix-blah of course, nothing can make that interesting) 11:15:26 -!- Mony has quit ("Mouarf...."). 11:16:08 Oh, I'm sure you still hang around here just because of psygnisfive's constant affections. 11:16:23 :) 11:16:32 psygnisfive is quite new 11:16:43 and he hasn't done that that much anymore 11:17:39 also this channel makes me feel bad i haven't gotten noprob&friends working yet, which of course is a good thing. 11:20:26 i wish there was an option not to erase browsing history, but just make it not suggest those things anymore when i type them 11:20:52 i want to visit pages i've accidentally closed, but sometimes i need to erase the suggestions because 11:20:54 err 11:21:04 i'm buying gifts 11:22:23 You mean the URL bar suggestions, and in which browser? 11:24:20 i recently went back to IE 11:24:32 FF before 11:25:24 seems a bit of a funny time to do so :) 11:25:28 no one happens to know how to get IE open the "open in default browser" links in a new tab instead of new window? ;) 11:25:35 Asztal: how so? 11:25:39 Well, I don't know about IE. In FF (3, anyway) the URL suggestibility is configurable, and in any case you can selectively delete only those incriminating URLs ("gifts", right...) in the history window. 11:26:07 fizzie: ah, let's check if ie has that 11:26:25 I guess it's okay if you (a) installed the ms08-078 patch or protect against it otherwise (b) don't visit any of the 6000+ infected sites 11:27:33 Asztal: i don't believe in viruses, or anything like that. 11:27:46 never had them, never protected myself. 11:28:43 and i have no idea what you're talking about, mind sharing? 11:29:01 i'm not going to install a patch, if i did, i could just as well install the new firefox 11:29:09 both are impossible tasks! 11:30:13 http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=2317 11:30:26 i've never understood how any kind of intrusion could be possible really 11:31:19 apparently in this bug it's a case of removing an item from an array without decrementing the array size 11:32:02 that's not possible if the design is at all OO 11:32:17 and even if not, it isn't possible if the programmers aren't idiots 11:32:49 consequently, i'm not going to believe IE has that hole. therefore i'm safe. 11:32:59 good for you! 11:33:24 You are not going to believe something that Microsoft admits? Well, it's good to have principles, I guess. 11:33:45 :P 11:33:51 well okay maybe i believe it a bit. 11:34:06 -!- metazilla has quit (Connection timed out). 11:34:12 so IE is written in what, subleq? 11:35:04 C with classes, I think 11:35:36 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:36:00 in cwc, you'd use vectors 11:37:31 The description I've seen about the issue has sounded more like "using a dangling reference to a free'd object", but I haven't seen any details, really. 11:37:51 "The vulnerability is caused by memory corruption resulting from the way Internet Explorer handles DHTML Data Bindings. -- Malicious HTML that targets this vulnerability causes IE to create an array of data binding objects, release one of them, and later reference it." 11:37:55 It's always so very vague. 11:38:00 I think my description pretty much amounts to yours. 11:38:27 maybe I misread, though. 11:38:46 Not really; any sort of automatical bounds-checking will catch "removing an element from the array and forgetting to decrement size". 11:39:09 well cwc doesn't have that for primitive arrays 11:39:11 -!- moozilla has joined. 11:39:17 so it's possible. 11:39:34 it's just stupid, and never happens to non-noobs 11:41:04 IE code might not be especially pretty. 11:41:12 true. 11:41:22 we will never know 11:43:27 i just don't see how something as important-sounding as DHTML Data Bindings would ever be in an array without an interface in-between. 11:43:54 especially when such a restrictive interface, vector, exists 11:44:12 of course in c++ that won't always save you 11:44:23 I have just used Google Translate to translate the Chinese announcement from people that might've been the ones who discovered it. 11:44:34 "Construction certain conditions can be detected SDHTML make the release mistakes have been the target of distribution, but the release has been the target of the distribution of post-SDHTML did not return but were released to continue to use the memory of the implementation of the object, if the memory was allocated to other purposes , Will lead to SDHTML such as a memory object to the operation." 11:44:40 And there you have it! 11:45:24 well, all i get out of that is the "memory was allocated to other purposes" part, which is really obvious anyway 11:45:44 wait, did i say c++ there 11:45:44 There release has been the target of the distribution! Did not return! 11:45:50 what was that about! 11:46:00 xD 11:46:22 Be careful, ir might lead a memory object to the operation. 11:46:31 "Will lead to SDHTML such as a memory object to the operation." <<< i love this 11:46:37 :D 11:46:39 also that one 11:46:47 automatic translations are so much fun 11:47:16 yay first exam graded 11:47:25 now i needs coke 11:47:58 i libraried me a the c++ programming language, better start reading soon 11:51:14 The person grading the "Computer Networks" course referred us to http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=974 on the course IRC channel. 11:51:30 I'm not sure if it was some sort of a comment on the results. 11:51:37 you have course irc channels? :< 11:52:28 seriously. i'm moving to helsinki 11:52:29 today. 11:52:30 For a few courses. Nothing systematical. I think I've been on about six of them. 11:52:43 i see 11:52:56 most of our lectures are > 120 yo. 11:53:21 The TML people ("data communications and multimedia") tend to have IRC channels; the other departments less often. 11:53:42 Although the AI course has one, and the Scheme course used to have back when it still existed. 11:55:02 our basic algo courses don't even cover nondeterministic turing machines anymore, supposedly it was "too hard". 11:55:19 I think the "introduction to programming (Java)" thing that replaced the Scheme course also has a channel. 11:55:28 every year courses are dumbified a few bits 11:56:44 Same here. 11:57:49 Oh, the Java thing does have an IRC channel, and even an IRC guide since the course gets a lot of new-ish students. 11:58:32 i guess it's an inevitability, if you want more than the <20 people in turku who are actually interested to be in the uni, you have to make courses easy enough to pass without any effort. 11:59:02 our student organization has an irc guide, and a channel, but that's really it 11:59:35 i'd love course irc channels... well, i'd love them if i wasn't the only one enthusiastic about memorizing the whole book and talking about it ;) 12:00:39 They are usually pretty quiet. 12:00:48 probably. 12:01:19 The AI course channel is active only during the programming project part, when people complain about bugs and what-they-think-to-be-bugs and even I-would-have-done-it-differently parts in the framework code provided. 12:01:52 yeah, that's also guessuble. 12:02:37 i'd like to talk about the actual subjects, my ideas, and stuff like that 12:03:11 ais523: you there? <--- I am now 12:03:14 what i'd like is a university full of geeks who have no life outside studying 12:03:16 unfortunately, you seem not to be 12:03:45 and a competitive atmosphere, where failing a course might make you drop off completely. 12:04:35 ais523: when was that highlight? 12:04:57 9-10 hours ago. 12:06:30 oklofok: I don't know, my bouncer records comments but not timestamps 12:06:32 the problem is, most people in the uni think it's the partying and being with friends part that's the gist of university, and since the courses are adjusted for the majority, they don't really have much of a challenge 12:06:35 and I can't be bothered to check the logs 12:06:42 ais523: understandable 12:06:47 however, I would have replied like that even if it had been 3 days ago 12:06:53 when was I last concious, anyway? 12:06:58 ais523: yes, me too, even if i saw the time stamp. 12:07:07 I've been either asleep or programming for the last 3 days it seems 12:07:12 asleep in the day, programming in the night 12:07:13 :O 12:07:17 coool 12:07:20 making it quite hard to get to an Internet connection 12:07:23 whatcha programming 12:07:36 I did a bit more of gcc-bf, but it's mostly been TAEB (a non-eso project) 12:07:50 i'm still interested 12:08:54 it's basically a bot for playing Nethack 12:09:02 just nethack? 12:09:05 yes, atm 12:09:17 I'm basically working away at a corner of someone else's project 12:09:23 they put me there to avoid me causing too much damage 12:09:29 :P 12:09:45 is it the same perl thing ehird linked? 12:09:50 yes 12:09:53 ah okay. 12:10:05 i was assuming you started from scratch, but made it more general 12:10:06 although I'm writing a different AI for the same framework 12:10:14 The Amazing E(?) Bot? 12:10:39 fizzie: i don't think ehird has contributed to the project 12:10:53 mine AI hardly Elbereths at all, I'm trying to make it as different as possible from the existing one 12:10:55 *my 12:11:33 oh elbereth. 12:11:41 "The E word." 12:11:49 was a bit of a leap of faith to think fizzie meant ehird :) 12:12:06 really the coke. 12:12:08 -> 12:12:09 Actually I meant "E-what? I don't know what this letter might mean." 12:12:15 unknown option --gelp - try gplc --help 12:14:16 oh, it stands for Tactical Amulet Extraction Bot 12:14:43 Sounds like an euphemism for A MURDER MACHINE. 12:14:57 ohh that's what you meant 12:15:30 wow, I'm wading through my email 12:15:42 and actually found a spam that I didn't guess was spam from the subject line 12:16:40 what was it? 12:16:59 From: "Kevin Griffin", subject line: "From Kevin Griffin" 12:17:11 the actual body of the email was blocked by my mailer settings 12:17:34 spammers do all sorts of clever tricks to try to send mail in a way the spam filters don't pick up on its contents 12:17:46 unfortunately, when they try that my mailer doesn't show me the contents either 12:18:02 (this is vaguely the same technique as setting your useragent to Googlebot) 12:38:07 -!- Mony has joined. 13:55:14 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 13:57:02 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:00:54 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 14:10:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:20:16 ais523: you there? <--- I am now 14:20:23 wb oerhan 14:20:28 *oerjan 14:20:42 just wanted to point out the recent wiki madness 14:20:51 that bad? I'm still reading email 14:21:03 * ais523 checks the wiki 14:22:51 time to use bot rollback on all that, I think 14:23:05 watch the as-yet-unreverted edits magically disappear from Recent Changes 14:23:51 yay 14:24:09 ugh, /how many/ spambots is that? 14:24:15 I'll have to write a script first, probably 14:24:20 or else be boring and use normal rollback 14:25:00 um, there were a few real edits too, last time i checked (before my ping this morning) 14:25:23 any from anons? 14:25:29 I'll look over the edit summaries first 14:25:35 hm i don't quite recall 14:25:37 ah yes, some legits 14:25:43 but I'm opening up all anons atm 14:26:16 but reverting everything from bots posting that specific subject should clean up a lot 14:26:39 FORM something 14:27:01 yes 14:27:08 er, FIELD_ 14:27:11 luckily, it seems to be the same sets of IPs over and over again 14:27:36 a few of those random nonsense subjects too 14:27:55 let me just check how to do bot rollback again, I know how to do it in theory but have never done it before 14:28:07 so I'm going to read up on it to make sure I get it right first time 14:29:04 before my last edit, only article creations should be unreverted, in case that helps 14:29:37 it's best if you don't revert for the time being 14:29:46 for, say, 20 mins or so 14:30:03 ok there are just a few new ones anyhow 14:30:10 relatively speaking 14:32:23 of course i wouldn't mind if you rolled back my reverts as well, would clean up a lot 14:32:52 i usually use the undo button 14:33:43 (actually, don't do that on Joke Language List, that was not spam) 14:33:54 I can't double-rollbacl 14:34:05 and I'm just rolling back stuff with suspicious edit summaries atm 14:34:16 oh 14:34:18 if someone posted a genuine FIELD_OTHER as a joke, revert me 14:34:57 i think there were some FIELD_MESSAGE in spams at one time 14:35:00 I'm going to block them all next 14:35:05 then I'll delete the spam pages 14:35:56 i don't think so. smjg used rvv for his revert subject, and i didn't change the undo subject 14:36:44 btw there are some spams that only use article section for subject 14:37:36 so you can revert reverts? is the whole lifetime of a wiki visible as a giant log? 14:37:42 yes, it is 14:37:51 oerjan: got them already, thanks 14:37:57 oklofok: except that admins can delete bits of it 14:38:04 ah 14:38:10 normally that's only for anti-copyvio, or whatever 14:38:19 ah okay 14:38:20 for regular spam like this normally I (or anyone else) just reverts 14:38:30 i did revert a copyvio the other day 14:38:31 except I delete the edit if it was the only edit to the page, just because that's easier in that ase 14:38:32 *case 14:39:58 (someone copied a hello world from Morgan-Mar's page, which had no license information) 14:41:34 ok, they're all blocked 14:41:37 now to clean up the mess 14:44:35 oerjan: does that look OK now? 14:45:11 all but one of the changes I reverted I hid from Recent Changes too to help unspam it a bit 14:45:23 but I can't hide the change-revert pairs reverted by other people 14:45:29 not easily, anyway 14:47:40 missed Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory 14:47:51 ok, what needs doing there? 14:48:05 the easiest way to spam 14:48:08 rollback the last spam 14:48:11 is to just write the spam like regular mail 14:48:12 :| 14:48:18 got it 14:48:26 the spammers have not yet figured that one out yet 14:48:34 and blocked 14:48:59 also, Talk:Multiprogramming 14:49:04 ehird: well, for me, they're trying to send me spam about revising clauses in contracts, that sort of thing 14:49:12 which might look like real mail to some people 14:49:23 Asztal: Er, I think you subscribed to agora-business by mistake. 14:49:41 got that one too 14:49:41 "the revised clauses are in this zip file, just open the .exe!" 14:50:12 Esolang:Wiki preservationhttp:/www.reactos.org/wiki/index.php/De/Häufig gestellte Fragen für Entwickler 14:50:24 that's a different sort of spam, isn't it? 14:50:37 not really 14:50:46 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Wiki_preservation <--- giving myself a link 14:50:47 well maybe a little 14:51:01 ah, I was erring on the side of not hitting anything legit 14:51:27 ais523: um that _was_ the link 14:51:27 but I don't see anything amiss there, you reverted them and I blocked the, 14:51:29 *them 14:51:31 or am I missing something? 14:51:46 oerjan: I wanted to go to the page, so I typed the URL in here 14:51:47 ais523: what i pasted was _just_ the link 14:51:49 so I could click on it 14:51:56 oerjan: I mean a link to the page 14:52:01 or was it a different page? 14:52:03 yes 14:52:06 Esolang:Wiki preservationhttp:/www.reactos.org/wiki/index.php/De/Häufig gestellte Fragen für Entwickler 14:52:10 all of it 14:52:21 oh 14:53:28 those last two were new creations 14:54:02 and I blocked the bot already 14:54:04 assuming i didn't miss anything during my last revert spurt, that should be all 14:54:17 so page deleted now 14:54:18 (i got some smjg missed) 14:54:30 let's hope they're out of IPs or zombies or proxies or whatever they're using 14:55:37 nah it's probably a million host sized botnet ;( 14:55:55 I can't blacklist edit summaries, you need graue to do that 14:56:45 see also smjg's message in Esolang talk:Community Portal 15:32:47 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:12:25 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 16:18:02 -!- jix has joined. 16:26:56 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:30:15 -!- Asztal has quit ("."). 16:32:45 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 16:40:35 -!- Judofyr has quit. 17:54:41 -!- olsner has joined. 17:55:42 -!- M0ny has joined. 18:03:25 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 18:30:54 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:50:50 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:55:23 ais523, hi 18:55:29 ais523, see /msg 18:55:39 away log of it that is 18:55:47 what did I say about pinging people in-channel about /msg :| 18:55:52 I already did, but I've forgotten already 18:56:25 ehird, wrong, it was about him not reading away log, since it affect IFFI build 18:56:36 hmm... in theory, a change to make the build system more portable shouldn't interfere too much with something that tries to use that build system 18:56:41 although it's nice to be updated with changes 18:56:50 that might affect the build system I haven't really written yet 18:57:10 AnMaster is clearly an acronym of AMnesiac. Well, almost. 18:57:18 er, anagram 18:57:30 y/tr/ic/ and it works 18:57:38 y/trM/icm/ if you want the case right 19:00:20 AMnesiac ? 19:00:25 wtf would that mean 19:01:00 AnMaster: you just forgot it 19:01:15 ah something like bad memory I guess 19:01:27 oerjan, also I hadn't forgot anything 19:01:33 it was ais523 who did 19:01:57 WHOOOOOOOOOOOSH 19:03:44 * ais523 reverts another spambot 19:03:52 I'm using admin bot-revert for the ones I see, as well as blocking 19:04:00 so the edits I revert get obliterated from Recent Changes 19:04:01 ais523, you too? Well for me not on wikipedia. 19:04:12 * AnMaster has spent a lot of time today editing on gentoo-wiki 19:04:20 with any luck that might make it at least slightly useful in the face of the current massive bot attack... 19:04:31 AnMaster: esolangs. actually,. 19:04:36 ah 19:04:41 ais523, what about blacklist? 19:04:49 AnMaster: I'm only a sysop, not server dev 19:04:59 iirc mediwiki has something like: MediaWiki:Spam Blacklist 19:05:01 or such? 19:05:11 that's for URLs 19:05:14 ah 19:05:15 the problem is they aren't spamming URLs 19:05:20 we have checks for that already 19:05:26 they're just spamming random ASCII garbage 19:05:33 which isn't even useful to them, AFAICT 19:05:39 ais523, FIELD_OTHER_* ? 19:05:47 I saw lots of that on another wiki the last few days 19:05:48 yep 19:05:59 would like to have a blacklist for it 19:06:58 ais523: no it is useful 19:06:59 perhaps there's a url but it's put into a completely stupid form field... 19:07:02 they check to see if the spamming works 19:07:10 and add it to their database 19:07:11 and stuff 19:07:16 so never detected 19:07:19 (like, come back a day later and check if it's still there) 19:07:29 then sell their db of spammable websites 19:07:39 ehird, ouch 19:07:40 ais523: there _was_ that case where the url got into the article name 19:07:50 for that newly created article 19:07:50 yes, but it was just a URL for another wiki... 19:08:01 oh? 19:08:06 yep 19:08:16 ehird, have you seen zuff recently btw? 19:08:25 no. 19:08:28 ah ok 19:08:28 he is dead. 19:08:31 I killed him with a fork. 19:08:32 he too? 19:08:33 and they are not the ones spamming us? 19:08:34 ouch 19:08:43 actually, just kidding 19:08:44 he's alive. 19:08:49 ehird, ah good 19:13:55 * oerjan notes ehird hiding a smoking beaker behind his back, with "Mr. Zuff formula" written on it 19:14:10 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff. 19:14:24 ayeeh 20:16:19 -!- M0ny has quit ("Mouarf...."). 20:36:28 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 21:32:03 -!- jix has joined. 21:59:55 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:08:53 arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2008/12/18/littlebigplanet- 22:08:54 er 22:08:56 http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2008/12/18/littlebigplanet-used-to-create-32-cell-computer-game-of-life 22:09:36 hi zuff 22:09:38 :) 22:10:19 I see there are severe bouncer problems today, I was speaking to ehird on what looked like the same client before 22:10:34 maybe some buffer overflow or such= 22:10:35 ? 22:10:46 actually, I killed ehird a few hours ago. 22:10:50 I'm now using his computer. 22:10:56 oh right 22:10:58 zuff, why? 22:11:23 I used a fork! 22:11:25 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird. 22:11:31 urrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggg 22:11:31 oh? 22:11:32 braiiiiiiiiiiiiiiins 22:11:35 zombieeeeeee 22:11:37 BRAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINS 22:11:42 * ehird RIIIIIIIP 22:11:45 om nom nom nom nom nom nom 22:11:45 that is just silly 22:11:46 .. 22:11:48 BRAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINS 22:11:52 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff. 22:11:53 * oerjan swats ehird -----### 22:11:54 FUCKING FUCK 22:11:56 zombie attack 22:11:56 a zombie *typing* brains on irc 22:11:57 HOLY SHIT 22:11:58 what have I done 22:12:00 aag 22:12:01 darn to late 22:12:02 h 22:12:04 * zuff whack 22:12:06 poff 22:12:08 AOWWWWWWWW!! 22:12:12 YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 22:12:14 *bash* 22:12:16 plonk 22:12:18 a 22:12:20 donk 22:12:22 no no, you don't *type* that 22:12:22 **KSSSSSSSSSSSRFFFFFFT* 22:12:24 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 22:12:27 * zuff P L O N K 22:12:28 bash 22:12:30 you *say* it 22:12:32 YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE 22:12:37 * zuff BOOF BASH BOOSH BAM 22:12:39 zuff, try zsh instead of bash 22:12:44 NO NO, MERCY! 22:12:47 I BEG FOR MERCY! 22:12:51 on irc? 22:12:54 ... 22:12:54 DON"T EAT MY BRrY*&YA&*RRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH\ 22:12:57 uuuuuuuurhhhhhhhhhhhh 22:13:00 braiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiins 22:13:03 BRAIIIIIIIIIIIIIINS 22:13:06 WANT BRAINS NOW 22:13:08 * oerjan swats zuff -----### 22:13:15 EAT OERJAN BRAINS 22:13:17 * AnMaster adds a 1 minute ignore 22:13:22 * zuff *SWBAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPT* 22:13:26 om nom nom nom nom nom nom 22:13:28 * oerjan hits zuff ====\___/ 22:13:29 mmmm. 22:13:33 BRAIIIIIIIIIINS 22:13:37 sigh 22:13:45 oerjan, I assume he didn't stop? 22:13:57 AnMaster: so sorry that you're allergic to fun 22:14:15 this requires automated warfare 22:14:18 zuff, no I'm not, I just agree with oerjan, you did too much 22:14:32 it was fun to begin with :P 22:14:34 AnMaster: oerjan was joking around far as I can tell. 22:14:39 also, what happened to the one minute ignore. 22:14:39 +ul ((====\___/ )S:^):^ 22:14:40 ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ...too much output! 22:14:49 oerjan, :D 22:15:09 +ul ((((====\___/ )S:^):^)S:^):^ 22:15:10 ((====\___/ )S:^):^((====\___/ )S:^):^((====\___/ )S:^):^((====\___/ )S:^):^((====\___/ )S:^):^((====\___/ )S:^):^((====\___/ )S:^):^((====\___/ )S:^):^ ...too much output! 22:15:23 +ul ((((====\___/ )S:^):^)^:^):^ 22:15:23 ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ...too much output! 22:15:24 fortunately zombies cannot program 22:15:28 oops 22:15:31 oerjan, :D 22:15:33 heh 22:15:33 oerjan: shut up; I ate your brain 22:15:49 also, zombies are lousy at anatomy 22:16:04 oerjan, ah so that is why you are missing one toe? 22:16:07 I see 22:16:10 might be 22:16:23 oh no, my toesies 22:16:29 hah 22:16:41 it's the bathtub monster from Rose is Rose 22:17:43 btw 22:18:16 anyone know a good music player for linux that supports cddb and isn't xine? Not Gnome 22:18:28 KDE is ok, so is more lightweight stuff 22:18:51 also: supports editing cddb info 22:19:01 since these cds I'm listening to atm are not in cddb 22:19:19 AnMaster: cddb is awful 22:19:22 xine supports fetching cddb info but not adding and uploading 22:19:22 use musicbrainz.org 22:19:29 the tags are of impeccable quality. 22:19:47 -!- Asztal has joined. 22:20:08 also, don't you mean freedb? 22:20:14 cddb is propietrary and closed. 22:20:22 [is now, at least] 22:20:30 zuff, well, whatever, I want to see the titles on this "Kända klassiska musikstycken - Skymningsljus" ~ "Famous classical music - Music for Dusk" 22:20:38 well non-perfect translation 22:20:40 look it up on MB 22:20:53 zuff, what id or checksum is used for that? 22:20:57 zuff, and yes I meant freedb 22:21:22 I don't recall; download their picard tagger and take a look? 22:21:25 iirc it's foss 22:21:31 http://musicbrainz.org/doc/PicardDownload 22:22:12 very interesting, cd-info reports info from freedb for it 22:22:15 but xine doesn't 22:22:23 usually xine reports it just fine 22:22:30 I'd recommend mpd; but you'd have to rip to flac or sth. 22:22:44 If I was a troll--which I am--I would recommend iTunes. 22:22:59 zuff, I want to play from the cd 22:23:06 iTunes can play from the CD :-P 22:23:10 I have no intention to transfer it to the computer 22:23:16 ah amarok, looks interesting 22:23:19 may be worth trying 22:23:22 Amarok is nice. 22:23:26 on another thing, it should have a NORMAL GUI 22:23:28 A bit bloated though. 22:23:31 it shouldn't look like themed 22:23:38 it should just look like any GUI app 22:23:48 you know, i'm not very inclined to help when you state your demands like that 22:23:49 xine tries to look like a music player of some sort 22:23:51 and fails 22:24:00 it uses a custom font 22:24:03 to look digital 22:24:06 Yes, I know. 22:24:08 fails on åäö 22:24:14 just totally fails on it 22:24:17 Yes, yes. 22:24:25 but I will try amarok 22:24:29 err spelling 22:24:39 ah yes correct spelling 22:24:40 AnMaster: Why not use one of the command-line cd players? 22:24:59 zuff, mplayer? hm may be worth trying 22:25:09 it works but I would like to see the titles 22:25:09 +ul ((:^~:*a~a*~!:^^^)((.)S)):^^^ 22:25:16 brb 22:25:28 AnMaster: Eh; I'd hack up a script that uses MusicBrainz and mplayer or something. 22:25:31 ......... ...too much memory used! 22:25:32 VLC does CDDB and has a "normal" GUI. 22:25:34 Why don't you want to rip the cd? 22:25:46 (Actually, I lie; I'd use iTunes.) 22:26:07 (Well, according to the feature list it does CDDB, anyway; haven't tried it.) 22:30:18 +ul ((:^~:a*~a*~!:^^^)((.)S)):^^^ 22:30:25 fizzie, hm thanks 22:30:44 . ...too much memory used! 22:30:53 zuff, as for not ripping them, there are 20 of them, and I agree with thutubot 22:30:57 when it comes to disk space 22:31:07 5 GB free 22:31:11 damn svn checkouts :P 22:31:20 AnMaster: an album ripped losslessly is about 300mb or so. 22:31:32 so, 6gb 22:31:35 * zuff shrugs 22:31:40 Thank the lord for large harddrives. 22:31:48 +ul (::S^)::S^ 22:31:49 ::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^ ...too much output! 22:33:23 +ul (:::SaS^):::SaS^ 22:33:24 :::SaS^(:::SaS^):::SaS^(:::SaS^):::SaS^(:::SaS^):::SaS^(:::SaS^):::SaS^(:::SaS^):::SaS^(:::SaS^):::SaS^(:::SaS^):::SaS^(:::SaS^):::SaS^(:::SaS^):::SaS^(:::SaS^) ...too much output! 22:33:31 +ul (:::aSS^):::aSS^ 22:33:32 (:::aSS^):::aSS^(:::aSS^):::aSS^(:::aSS^):::aSS^(:::aSS^):::aSS^(:::aSS^):::aSS^(:::aSS^):::aSS^(:::aSS^):::aSS^(:::aSS^):::aSS^(:::aSS^):::aSS^(:::aSS^):::aSS^ ...too much output! 22:33:39 Infinite quine! 22:33:49 Hmm. 22:33:59 fizzie: hey, that's a program that writes out an infinite-length quine 22:33:59 :D 22:36:37 wow vlc have lots of useflags 22:36:49 must be a great software then ~~~ 22:37:02 (oh yes, php has even more, and we all know it is great right?) 22:37:12 oh btw: 22:37:13 [ebuild N ] media-video/vlc-0.9.8a USE="X alsa cddb dbus dvd fbcon ffmpeg flac fontconfig gnutls libgcrypt libnotify mmx mp3 mpeg musepack ncurses nsplugin ogg opengl png qt4 rtsp sdl sse stream svg theora truetype vorbis xv -a52 -aac -aalib (-altivec) -arts -atmo -avahi -bidi -cdda -cdio -dc1394 -debug -dirac -directfb -dts -dvb -esd -fluidsynth -ggi -gnome -hal -httpd -id3tag -jack -kate -libas 22:37:13 s -libcaca -libsysfs -libv4l2 -lirc -live -lua -matroska -modplug -optimisememory -oss -pulseaudio -pvr -remoteosd -run-as-root -samba -schroedinger -sdl-image -seamonkey -shout -skins -speex (-svga) -taglib -twolame -upnp -v4l -v4l2 -vcd -vcdinfo -vcdx -vlm (-win32codecs) -x264 -xinerama -xml -xosd -zvbi" 16,640 kB 22:37:22 thank you. we all needed to see that. 22:38:03 zuff, really? Wow 22:38:07 infinite quines are trivial 22:38:32 that's something one discovers the first time attempting to make a quine 22:38:34 at least i did 22:38:48 well yeah 22:38:53 but it's a trivial infinite-quine-maker 22:39:02 well i didn't read context :) 22:39:11 but ohh. 22:39:22 yeah okay thazz niec 22:39:26 ima go read my book now 22:39:29 so have the fun 22:40:09 hm... 22:40:09 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 22:41:55 +ul ()(~(S)*:Sa~:^):^ 22:41:55 S(S)S((S)S)S(((S)S)S)S((((S)S)S)S)S(((((S)S)S)S)S)S((((((S)S)S)S)S)S)S(((((((S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S((((((((S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S(((((((((S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S((((((((((S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S ...too much output! 22:42:09 bah 22:42:19 +ul (())(~(S)*:Sa~:^):^ 22:42:20 ()S(()S)S((()S)S)S(((()S)S)S)S((((()S)S)S)S)S(((((()S)S)S)S)S)S((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S(((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S((((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S(((((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S ...too much output! 22:43:34 that's a (trivial infinite quine) maker 22:43:53 :D 22:44:06 night 22:44:14 * AnMaster gets a normal portable cd player 22:44:21 if I can find it 22:44:25 I have one somewhere 22:44:33 no not mp3, I mean portable cd player, old thing 22:44:45 [sum] [length] di / 22:44:47 factor is nice 22:46:59 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:50:46 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:50:59 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:51:38 * zuff commits piracy 22:51:49 **intellectual property infringement 22:51:54 an easy typo 22:53:11 * oerjan commits murder 22:53:15 **loud snickering 22:53:19 another one 22:53:49 * zuff rapes a thousand kittens 22:53:51 **babies 22:53:57 slip of the fingers 22:54:15 * oerjan is thrilled with joy 22:54:17 **horror 22:56:15 hmm, I wonder if this OS X 10.5 image will fit on the dvd-rs i have. 22:56:39 **child porn 22:56:43 (just helping) 22:56:53 **dying 22:57:14 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 22:58:03 the trouble with escalation is that it escalates 22:59:06 **eats your firstborn 22:59:48 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:01:14 woop woop, I shall have my illegal OS copy in around 20 hours. 23:01:31 well, i'll put it off overnight 23:01:37 so it'll be a bit longer 23:01:44 ooh, now it's 7 hours left. that's nice 23:04:11 3 hours. 23:04:38 this time dilation stuff always freaks me out 23:05:19 :D 23:07:08 2 hours. 23:10:00 zuff, why would you talk about getting an illegal copy of an OS publicly? 23:10:10 Sgeo: Why not? 23:10:50 Morally, I don't give the concept of IP much weight, and Apple aren't exactly poor atm. Realistically, it's not as if they employ people to trawl through IRC logs looking for pirates to prosecute. 23:10:57 Justification-ly, I'm bored. 23:14:06 Are there ways to trash WinXP that don't work in Win98? 23:58:11 Ooh, I should markup the USA Constitution in nice HTML and mess with its typography. But i'm not a US citizen. :P 2008-12-19: 00:00:22 -!- oerjan has quit ("Maybe the Magna Carta will do?"). 00:08:21 Sgeo: Run some .EXEs sent in mail or that some websites want to push to you... Many of them likely don't work in Win98, but they trash WinXP real good... :-> 00:16:28 Sgeo: Run enough of them and the CPU/Memory load will bring system operation to standstill. 00:16:49 Don't want standstill. Want strange effects I can take pictures of 00:20:17 There aren't much interesting effects beside bluescreens... Win98 (at least it is in Win95, because I have seen it with that) would have had interesting one that isn't in WinXP. 00:21:48 idea: a vm which has its email posted everywhere. whenever it gets a program in the email, it runs it 00:21:50 :D 00:23:39 http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/3161/pid0killstartmenuse0.png 00:23:56 Note the lack of a Shut Down button 00:24:31 Sgeo: run tons of viruses on it 00:46:01 no shutdown button is because you killed lsass.exe, I think 00:49:07 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 00:49:30 And canceled the auto-shutdown (IIRC, lsass.exe dying triggers it)? :-) 00:49:33 although to my memory that usually causes a timed shutdown in 30 seconds 00:49:41 Ilari, yes, killing lsass triggered autoshutdown 00:49:44 Which I disabled 00:50:17 can you actually do *anything* that requires authentication now? 00:50:48 Well, right now I'm trying another destroyery thing 00:51:28 Sgeo: AFAIK, the auto-shutdown can also be canceled. 00:51:36 Ilari, yes, I know, with shutdown 0a 00:51:38 erm 00:51:40 shutdown -a 00:53:21 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:21:46 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:22:29 -!- sebbu has joined. 01:22:58 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:28:11 -!- Corun has joined. 02:21:03 http://xkcd.com/350/ 02:59:27 Hmm... A virus that gradually converts Windows XP/Vista binaries into some Linux distribution... Programs stop functioning one after one, and after a reboot you suddenly see a Linux login-prompt instead of a Windows-one. 03:01:44 OK, I'm am SO FEKKING CLEVER 03:01:56 I suggested that a friend of mine sign his emails with this "name": x ∈ S s.t. ∀y∈S x ≥ y 03:02:02 Can anybody identify his real name? :) 03:02:21 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:02:28 max? 03:02:34 Yup! 03:17:09 Well, last day to finish that fucking assignment. 03:17:25 If Mathematica can't get it right, I'll have to do it by hand. 03:17:40 Man, you have a fucking assignment? What school do /you/ go to? 03:18:33 Well, it counts for my exams 03:18:34 Assignment? Jeeze. 03:18:40 * pikhq got done with finals today. 03:19:00 I've perhaps not been all that smart about finals week; I've gotten maybe 6 hours of sleep this week... 03:19:12 Heh. 03:20:08 *shrug* Sleep's hard when you're panicking. 03:20:24 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 03:20:59 Well, the convolution of four square signals to compute. 03:21:02 Let's do it. 03:21:23 Don't let me down Mathematica! 03:24:23 Well, no dice. 03:24:33 5 hours to finish that shit by hand. 03:27:41 -!- sebbu has joined. 03:36:57 -!- Corun has joined. 03:38:27 -!- jix_ has joined. 03:52:42 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:58:26 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 05:36:52 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 05:42:34 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 05:50:36 -!- Owner_ has joined. 05:50:50 -!- Owner_ has changed nick to evincar. 05:51:38 -!- evincar has changed nick to evincer. 05:51:51 'lo. 05:52:45 -!- evincer has changed nick to daffa. 05:52:54 Anyone alive? 05:54:55 No 05:55:03 Aaaaaargh* 05:55:05 I4m dead 05:56:26 -!- moozilla has joined. 05:56:29 -!- SpaceMan_ has joined. 05:57:50 -!- olsner has joined. 05:57:52 Gee, that sucks. 05:58:16 How's the esoteric programming world beyond the grave? 05:58:51 are you alone 05:59:04 We program in ghostfuck 05:59:06 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:59:41 -!- SpaceMan_ has quit (Client Quit). 06:00:58 whitespace + brainfuck = ghostfuck ? 06:01:09 Have we an idea on our hands? 06:01:15 I think we just might. 06:01:19 * daffa cracks his fingers. 06:01:23 Time to get coding. 06:01:41 Meh. 06:01:51 It would just be a brainfuck with different symbols 06:02:00 Not necessarily. 06:02:23 Ah, whatever. 06:02:29 bf variants have been done to death. 06:02:31 ... 06:02:34 If you'll pardon the pun. 06:03:42 Heh. 06:25:57 -!- moozilla has joined. 06:28:12 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:56:34 heys 07:02:06 hey 07:04:10 -!- moozilla has joined. 07:06:39 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:14:10 Hate to miss out on the lively conversation, but it's time for me to catch some winks. 07:14:19 Later all. 07:14:28 -!- daffa has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"). 07:29:41 so 07:30:03 i have the desire to experiment with self assembling structures 07:41:25 -!- moozilla has joined. 07:41:45 in a sort of self-assembling-that-computers sort of way 07:42:41 that-computes** 07:44:20 Compute her? 07:44:21 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:44:23 I hardly know her! 07:59:17 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:15:43 well hopefully hardly. it'd be pretty boring if it were soft! 08:16:57 -!- moozilla has joined. 08:19:44 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:46:07 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 08:55:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 08:58:26 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:03:27 -!- moozilla has joined. 09:06:15 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:35:34 -!- moozilla has joined. 09:38:09 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:02:09 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 10:18:23 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:20:33 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:29:49 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 11:18:56 * AnMaster ponders OpenMP 11:31:59 -!- Asztal has joined. 11:33:07 -!- Judofyr has joined. 11:36:40 -!- moozilla has joined. 11:39:18 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:03:43 -!- Slereah has joined. 12:13:20 -!- moozilla has joined. 12:16:08 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:16:16 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:49:45 -!- moozilla has joined. 12:52:09 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:11:32 -!- Azstal has joined. 13:15:44 -!- Asztal^_^ has joined. 13:19:09 -!- Asztal has quit (Nick collision from services.). 13:19:22 -!- Asztal^_^ has changed nick to Asztal. 13:20:01 -!- Asztal has quit (Client Quit). 13:33:00 -!- Azstal has quit (Connection timed out). 13:48:47 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:49:04 -!- oklopol has joined. 13:53:00 -!- moozilla has joined. 14:07:27 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:09:16 -!- MizardX has quit ("Lost sanity"). 14:30:09 -!- moozilla has joined. 14:50:23 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:53:59 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird. 15:17:17 -!- moozilla has joined. 15:29:15 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:37:14 Deewiant: btw funge 108 was actually a code name for funge 109 15:37:16 or something 15:37:18 just FYI 15:37:22 suuuure 15:37:27 ;-) 15:37:49 since I had so much to do this fall and winter, will have more free time next year actually 15:38:43 or lets do like C/C++ standards: Funge-10x 15:38:45 hm 15:38:50 that still leaves just one year 15:40:58 Funge-1xx. 15:41:09 fizzie, now that is too imprecise 15:41:14 Then you can wait a hundred years before releasing the next revision. 15:41:28 Funge-1[0-2]\d, maybe. 15:41:59 Funge-1[01][:digit:] 15:42:02 rather 15:42:17 Funge-[:digit:]+ -- the eternal specification. 15:42:24 Er, [[:digit:]], I mean. 15:42:33 hm 15:42:45 we need Delicious Funge. oklopol! 15:42:48 The [:foo:] classes work only inside []s, I think. 15:43:01 fizzie, hm ok, I hardly ever use them 15:43:09 Funge-1[01][[:digit:]] 15:43:13 in that case 15:44:25 wonderful; the os x I pirated is a shitty osx86 clusterfuck 15:44:27 why [:digit:] instead of [0-9] 15:44:29 "Thirds_Applications (will be installed in /applications/KOOLSOFTS/) " 15:44:31 i cannot wait. 15:45:47 Deewiant: I had prepared a reply saying I'd use (in order of preference) \d and even [0-9] over [[:digit:]], but that in such a silly use as this [[:digit:]] might be appropriate. But I got bored halfway through writing that reply- 15:46:04 hah 15:46:15 fizzie, you wrote it however ^ 15:46:20 just when you said you didn't 15:46:31 Yes, when Deewiant went and brough the point up. 15:46:45 ah 15:47:05 there is one use for those classes however 15:47:11 l10n 15:47:20 and/or i18n 15:47:32 at least for classes like: [:lower:] 15:47:47 where åäö also belongs in Swedish for example, but not in English 15:47:51 yay, 4 days 3 hours remaining. 15:47:53 how nice. 15:48:02 ehird, count down to xmas? 15:48:12 No, count down to this download supposedly finishing. :-P 15:48:17 ah 15:48:27 yeah it is like 5 days left I think 15:48:35 6. 15:48:42 depends 15:48:53 in Sweden it is on the 24th 15:48:55 :P 15:49:18 but yes 6 in UK 15:49:21 -!- moozilla has joined. 15:49:52 goddammit, all I want to do is pirate an operating system. is that too much to ask. (yes) 15:50:33 ehird, what OS is it? 15:51:18 OS X 10.5. 10.6 is barely changed and out next year and I'll be being that legitly, but this machine is hopelessly out of date and I don't feel like giving steve jobs ~£50 15:52:38 * AnMaster refrains from commenting on the price of new versions of certain other OS. 15:53:18 * ehird refrains going into a month-long rant about why I'd rather pay than deal with the various annoyances of linux/bsd. 15:53:55 also 15:54:01 hm how much does OS X cost? cheaper than Windows? 15:54:02 or not 15:54:04 * ehird intentionally misconstrues as meaning Vista and talks about how vista sucks 15:54:12 * ehird watches you then react in a manner not getting the joke 15:54:18 AnMaster: I think so. 15:54:23 not certain. 15:54:39 I do get the joke 15:54:59 also there are loads of other OS you could misinterpret it as 15:55:02 * ehird makes microsoft think he wants to buy Vista, and chooses one of the 5,000 versions 15:55:15 Solaris, QNX, CP/M, PC-DOS... 15:55:16 "yes, I want to buy Help end AIDS in Africa" 15:55:24 "no, I want to buy windows dammit" 15:55:50 heh, how many versions of windows are there actually? 15:56:02 iirc there are two OS X versions, normal and server 15:56:18 I think it was 129 EUR in Apple Store, although there's some sort of trick where ADC (Apple Developer Connection) student membership is cheaper than that and still includes an OS X copy. 15:56:21 windows xp, hm, home, pro, and 2003 server 15:56:31 oh and different languages 15:57:05 as for vista, tons 15:57:12 AnMaster: yeah, just two 15:57:22 and the server one appears to be more useful as a computation cluster OS than a server one. 15:57:37 oh I think windows server exist in more than one version? 15:57:42 like "domain controller edition" 15:57:44 WINDOWS VISTA HOME BASIC WITH SERVICE PACK 1 15:57:52 or is that part of the basic windows server 15:57:54 still doesn't want to tell me how much it costs. 15:58:17 * AnMaster googles 15:58:19 Shopping results for windows vista price 15:58:19 Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate w/SP1 - 1 PC$170 to $271 - 231 stores 15:58:19 Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium - 1 PC$103 to $139 - 38 stores 15:58:19 Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate - 1 PC$158 to $280 - 93 stores 15:58:30 * ehird looks up Leopard price 15:58:31 shrug 15:58:37 There are "just" five "common" Vista editions (Home Basic, Home Premium, Business, Enterprise, Ultimate), the rest are things like "with SPx" and other not-so-relevant distinctions. 15:58:49 Alive Leopard - priceless 15:58:55 ;) 15:58:57 AnMaster: leopard is $129 15:59:02 And specialities like "Windows Vista Starter" which has that "can only run three applications simultaneously" restriction. 15:59:08 Mac OS X Leopard - 1 user$110 to $150 - 11 stores 15:59:09 Mac OS X Leopard$14.26 - 30 stores 15:59:09 wtf? 15:59:16 AnMaster: lol wat 15:59:24 ehird, google said it 15:59:28 Shopping results for leopard price 15:59:28 Mac OS X Leopard - 1 user$110 to $150 - 11 stores 15:59:28 Mac OS X Leopard$14.26 - 30 stores 15:59:29 anyway, so, leopard = midrange cost of Home Premium 15:59:37 AnMaster: probably some program or sth 15:59:42 google isn't perfect 15:59:47 The 14.26 price is for the media. 15:59:50 ehird, and a much more competent OS than windows * 16:00:10 I would much rather use OS X than Windows, though I prefer Linux even more 16:00:14 It says "Media, Multi-Country, DVD-ROM, pricing: Volume" for that, "complete package" for something you'd actually buy. 16:00:32 fizzie, heh 16:01:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Windows_Longhorn_logo.svg Also known as "Windows Phallus" 16:01:50 There were four versions of Windows 2000, of which three were "Server" versions (Professional, Server, Advanced Server, Datacenter Server) but I think it got more complicated after that. 16:02:35 AnMaster: Of course, every OS is free if you obtain it via the interwebs. :P 16:03:25 According to infallible Wikipedia, for Windows Server 2008 the editions are: Standard, Enterprise, Datacenter, HPC Server, Web Server, Storage Server, Small Business Server, Essential Business Server. 16:03:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:04:09 I wonder when Microsoft will die. 16:05:06 http://www.biscade.com/office/ Hahaha wow. 16:06:42 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:09:18 ehird, heh 16:09:36 2 days remaining. sigh 16:17:07 http://msexchangeteam.com/ 16:17:10 M Sex Change Team 16:17:37 Reminds me of that kid store 16:17:44 KIDSEXCHANGE 16:17:51 heh 16:18:13 hos stupid, they should use a space or a - 16:18:31 Or the mole station nursery. 16:18:41 AnMaster: or not care, because only immature idiots like me notice 16:18:47 also, you can't use a space in a domain name. 16:18:49 Their web adress is misleading 16:18:59 ehird, indeed, unless you had written it out I wouldn't have seen it 16:19:01 and indeed 16:19:04 Or Ferreth and jobs 16:19:05 but - is possible 16:19:14 yeah they should disambiguiate 16:19:17 m-sex-change-team.com 16:19:23 OR SPEED OF ART 16:19:33 ehird, indeed 16:19:43 AnMaster: i hope you got that 16:19:47 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:20:05 ehird, I saw it after you pasted it first time " M Sex Change Team" 16:20:15 yes, but the clarified domain was a joke. 16:20:25 indeed 16:20:34 not very funny though 16:20:52 also: the dirt is in the eye of the beholder 16:20:53 ;P 16:20:59 Hm. 16:21:04 Delicious dirt in my eyes. 16:21:21 famous English idiom 16:21:22 I wonder if I can tattoo porn directly into my eye 16:21:33 Slereah, probably not 16:27:48 -!- LinuS has joined. 16:28:27 Bah; this download is fruitless. 16:29:38 Is it a download of carrots? 16:29:48 no/ 16:31:07 -!- moozilla has joined. 16:31:28 * ehird tries another. 16:31:49 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 16:36:22 ooooooooooooo 16:37:14 "no/" looks like one hardcore partydude 16:41:04 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:41:09 I have a vague notion that Experts Exchange also used to have expertsexchange.com before the current experts-exchange.com. 16:41:58 yes 16:43:35 And the "who represents?" site seems to still be at whorepresents.com. 16:50:17 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:51:08 http://sungazing.com/ 16:51:31 ugh... thats nasty 16:51:39 wat 16:52:59 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:53:08 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 16:53:45 -!- Corun has joined. 16:57:41 ehird: you know what i mean. 16:57:48 anyway that's pretty cool, i'm so game too 16:59:35 Strange sort of disclaimer. "Do A. Disclaimer: never do A." 17:00:56 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:02:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:03:44 hi oerjan 17:04:15 hello oklorific one 17:10:20 -!- moozilla has joined. 17:20:44 hjghjg 17:21:10 oh no, the random word spammers have successfully cracked ehird 17:21:37 stupid slow torrent 17:24:59 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:33:32 * ehird considers installing shitty pirated one. 17:36:14 http://www.mezzacotta.net/owls/ 17:47:07 -!- moozilla has joined. 17:49:55 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 17:51:36 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:07:16 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:26:05 -!- Dewi has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 18:26:57 -!- Dewi has joined. 18:27:29 Deewiant, oh btw, last cfunge bzr has DATE now 18:34:38 -!- moozilla has joined. 18:46:07 lurvely. the copy wouldn't eject 18:46:22 somebody buy me osx leopard kplz 18:46:55 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:46:56 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:06:36 -!- moozilla has joined. 19:24:26 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:36:42 -!- warrie has joined. 19:54:31 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:55:07 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 19:57:15 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:59:49 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:59:49 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:01:04 -!- moozilla has joined. 20:03:29 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:09:42 -!- warrie has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 20:13:37 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 20:20:38 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:22:10 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 20:24:47 oooooooooooooo! 20:25:00 how's it? 20:25:25 What is "it"? 20:26:29 answering with a question is like asking and providing the answer yourself, except completely reversed, but still pretty stupid. 20:27:33 So, you don't know what "it" is? 20:27:44 ...well no 20:27:54 LISTEN I NEED TO GO NOW, SO. 20:27:55 -> 20:39:01 -!- moozilla has joined. 20:55:57 moozilla: The only web browser for cows. 20:56:25 :DDDDD 20:56:52 YOU SHOULD DO STAND-UP 20:57:00 get up stand up 20:57:03 stand up for your right 20:57:16 to moo 20:57:45 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:21:44 -!- moozilla has joined. 21:24:03 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:46:38 oklopol 21:48:53 psygnisfive 21:49:05 wanna experiment with self organizing mechanisms? :o 21:49:29 Is it an euphemism? 21:49:33 no 21:49:44 Could it be? 21:49:50 do you want it to be? 21:49:51 i actually want to start coding my c++ course project, but i may want that too 21:49:55 Yes. 21:49:57 Yes I do 21:50:11 ok 21:50:14 oklopol 21:50:16 psygnisfive: i'm listening, anyway. 21:50:20 wanna have hot sticky gritty mansex? 21:50:30 and by that i mean experiment with self organizing mechanisms 21:50:31 Why the grit? 21:50:41 what grit? 21:50:44 because grittiness is manly 21:50:51 not if it's like 1200 grit 21:50:59 But you like sissy boys, you faggot. 21:51:01 100 grit is manly 21:51:39 i dont like sissy boys 21:51:40 psygnisfive: interesting question 21:51:56 if i did, i'd like you, slereah! 21:52:03 I have a beard. 21:52:15 Also you sure have a lot of sissy boys on your website! 21:52:24 i have a small kid's beard. 21:52:29 you mean on /mg/? 21:52:42 or in my WNW links? 21:53:05 psygnisfive: whenever you're ready to elaborate... 21:53:10 gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay 21:53:14 WNW? 21:53:49 wellnowwhat.net 21:54:00 oklopol: well, first you insert your penis into my mouth and-.. 21:54:11 On wnw 21:54:24 prettyboy.jpg :o 21:54:41 i was thinking we could look initially at getting some self assembling simulated objects. figure out some principles of how to get that to work 21:54:44 -!- Corun has joined. 21:54:55 prettyboy.jpg is natalie/kitten 21:55:16 im not so much attracted to him as to his cock. hes too feminine like that. 21:55:24 but natalie's cock is adooorable 21:55:30 Yyyyyyyyes. 21:55:35 Why not. 21:56:36 why am i not attracted to him? 21:56:54 It's not a question. 21:57:11 what's it a response to?? 21:58:04 "I am not gay for his sissy faggotry but I fap to his cock" 21:58:27 well it IS a nice cock 21:58:28 psygnisfive: in response to the thing sandwiched between all the penises and cocks, i'm all for getting objects and figuring principles 21:58:28 lets be honest 21:58:30 and a nice body 21:58:33 -!- ehird has set topic: In which psygnisfive and Slereah discuss being gay.. 21:58:46 Hey >:| 21:58:49 i'm just not sure what you mean by self-assembling objects, what context? 21:58:50 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: In which cocks.. 21:58:51 You forgot the link to the logs 21:59:03 -!- ehird has set topic: In which psygnisfive and Slereah discuss being gay. http://tunes.org/~nef/cocks/esoteric/. 21:59:40 oklopol: more abstract, actually. im more interested in general principles of how to get parts to self organize into a particular kind of structure based on the nature of the parts themselves 22:01:11 psygnisfive: would this all be in somekinda physics simulation, or what exactly? 22:01:22 i'm still not entirely sure what kind of objects we're talking about. 22:01:40 cocks, obviously? 22:01:47 dunno. it could whatever. like i said, im more interested in the abstract principles, so we can design it however we want. 22:02:03 also, btw, can 1-dimensional CAs be TC? 22:02:12 uh, yes. 22:02:14 r30. 22:02:14 Yes. 22:02:19 RULE 110 BITCH 22:02:19 or 101 22:02:20 w/e 22:02:22 err 22:02:23 110 22:02:25 ok. 22:02:27 110 is TC? 22:02:30 Yes. 22:02:39 Also color inversions 22:02:42 huh.. i didnt know that :D 22:03:05 how can you not know that 22:03:15 never bothered to consider it 22:03:25 now what about 0 dimnsional automata :O 22:03:28 and 30 hasn't been proved tc no matter how many times ehird suggests it 22:03:39 psygnisfive: depends on what you mean by that 22:03:50 given an infinite set of values for a cell, trivially. 22:03:51 A 0 dimensional automata either blinks or stay static 22:03:51 single celled 22:04:01 oklopol: yes, obviously infinite valued 22:04:31 psygnisfive: you can encode an infinite amount of finites in a finite amount of infinites 22:05:59 but would you be able to make it TC? you might need an infinite number of control states, and TMs are FSAs with a tape 22:06:25 Define "cellular automaton" for 0D, too 22:06:25 could you make the single-celled CA have a FSA controller? i wonder 22:06:30 What kind of rules can it have? 22:06:36 you'll need an infinite amount of rules to effectively have infinite values for a cell 22:06:44 would you tho 22:06:55 and with infinite code, ifs are enough to do anything. 22:07:00 you can simply have rules that multiple and divide and add and subtract and still get infinite values 22:07:12 without infinite code, you essentially have a finite amount of cell values 22:07:13 but thats sort of assuming extra computational mechanisms 22:11:26 rule 110 is neat 22:11:34 it has what look like elementary particles :O 22:12:00 Indeed it does 22:12:11 But really, I am gay for the game of life 22:12:31 Slereah: so, thinking of specializing in ca physics? 22:12:52 wolfram, i think, believes the universe is a CA 22:13:32 oklopol : Nah. 22:13:46 I'm also gay for gays, but I'm not into men physics 22:13:51 psygnisfive: yes, he suggests it's based on graph rewriting 22:14:00 the universe? graph rewriting? hmm 22:14:15 any examples of this online? my copy of nks is in florida 22:14:38 particles are gliders in the massive graph, long-distance forces are connections too narrow for the gliders to pass through, he has a lot of fun ideas abou it 22:14:40 *about 22:14:51 -!- moozilla has joined. 22:15:28 Maybe I should give it a thought 22:15:36 Although I'm not sure I can get a class on that 22:17:05 also he says it's probably expressable in five lines of mathematica code 22:17:20 Well, it might be. 22:17:30 Physics can be really broken down a lot. 22:17:52 Example : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers/LUR.jpg 22:17:54 SCIENCE! 22:17:54 rule 110 generator: 22:17:55 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Weltereproduktionsklavier.jpg 22:18:08 if you're a unificationist, the universe should be expressible in a single one inch long equation! 22:18:28 Well, even if you're not, I think. 22:18:41 Here's a trick : If you have equation A and equation B. 22:18:43 cock = -vagina 22:18:48 The axiom should be A /\ B 22:18:49 :D 22:19:51 lol 22:20:03 Of course, it might not be as pretty 22:20:03 that's not really a mathematical expression tho, thats a logical one. :P 22:20:09 Same thing 22:20:17 You can express it mathematically 22:20:21 Godel and all that 22:20:21 eh not really. domain/range differences 22:20:31 plus, thats really grungy and inelegant 22:20:42 Well, elegance is another thing. 22:20:50 For instance, that formula above! 22:20:52 the two should emerge from a single equation not just an oring of the two 22:21:04 It's the Lagrangian density for a particle in a gravitational and EM field. 22:21:12 It's pretty awesome. 22:21:21 cock = -vagina is pretty elegant 22:21:34 But really, it's all cheating. 22:21:35 no lament 22:21:42 its more like cock = -clit 22:21:42 When an expression is just one line long 22:21:58 It usually means that the underlying formula is complicated as fuck. 22:22:14 it means there are a lot of assumptions about notation. 22:22:29 R is the Ricci scalar, g is the determinant of the metric tensor, D is the covariant derivative, F is the electromagnetic tensor 22:22:32 Yeah 22:22:55 That formula using only regular arithmetic and calculus is actually ugly 22:23:18 notation is a lot tho actually 22:23:43 (Also that formula is false : it should be -g, not g) 22:23:46 notation is a kind of technology 22:23:52 (Since the metric tensor is always negative) 22:24:05 but the equation has sqrt(g) 22:24:13 Yes. 22:24:15 if it was sqrt(-g) it'd be i*sqrt(g) making it always complex 22:24:19 ... 22:24:20 No 22:24:22 not negative 22:24:23 Because g < 0 22:24:31 So -g > 0 22:24:53 oh yes? i didnt know g < 0. ok then. 22:25:02 http://www.kenfoster.com/Articles/anaction.gif 22:25:14 Well, in flat space, it's -1,1,1,1 diagonally 22:25:19 lament: what? 22:25:27 Signs are always like that generally 22:25:41 psygnisfive: sex toys. 22:25:49 piano key? 22:26:03 A piano is not a sex toys 22:26:12 depends on how you use it, surely 22:31:22 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:34:36 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:37:29 piano is better than sex. 22:37:41 *mittens 22:37:56 strings vibrate 22:38:07 http://tanasinn.info/wiki/Mittens 22:38:21 sex with MITTENS is awesome ! 22:38:42 sex with mittens is probably better than playing piano with mittens 22:39:24 lol dqn 22:39:47 VIP QUALITY 22:47:30 Tell me ehird by the way 22:47:38 Since you are such a VIP man. 22:47:48 Is table cat English in origin? 22:48:00 The video is, and I can't find any of it on 2chan. 22:48:05 Dunno. 23:03:19 -!- Judofyr has joined. 23:13:39 -!- moozilla has joined. 23:16:19 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:18:02 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. Sì, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 23:25:52 -!- Asztal has joined. 23:34:49 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 23:51:33 -!- moozilla has joined. 23:53:55 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 2008-12-20: 00:01:35 http://mrbmd.com/mrb_personal_blog1.htm "HOW TO SEND EMAIL TO YOURSELF" 00:02:16 STEP 1 : ENTER YOUR EMAIL ADRESS 00:02:22 STEP 2 : WRITE EMAIL 00:02:27 STEP 3 : SEND EMAIL 00:14:35 ihope@normish.orgHi, me!Okay, now how do I send it? 00:15:18 Hmm, I should have said something like "warrie@normish.org" instead so that someone else gets all the spam. 00:15:31 root@normish.org is the best email address, really. 00:16:05 I often send myself emails 00:16:15 It's an easier alternative for file transfer 00:21:37 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:41:13 -!- moozilla has joined. 00:42:23 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 00:45:46 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 00:47:09 00:50:01 Sgeo: el oh EL 00:54:07 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:54:43 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:58:38 * ehird sketches generic oop 00:58:42 err, generic method 00:58:59 I'm going to use "oop" as a slang term for "method" from now on. 00:59:52 "That piano player has excellent oop." 01:00:18 "Then you can just call the object's oop instead of needing to use a macro." 01:01:40 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 01:13:21 -!- moozilla has joined. 01:26:06 Warrigal, so panic() is an oop to generate an oops? 01:26:09 in the kernel 01:26:22 night 01:30:34 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:35:00 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:55:18 -!- moozilla has joined. 02:11:08 It's an oopsoop. 02:12:27 ;) 02:12:37 Warrigal, http://yugop.com/ver3/ 02:12:44 hy all y sexy ladys 02:17:17 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:23:37 -!- cherez has joined. 02:25:35 -!- cherez has left (?). 03:10:37 -!- moozilla has joined. 03:13:00 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:38:38 -!- jix has joined. 03:51:52 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 03:57:13 -!- moozilla has joined. 03:59:52 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:02:33 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:02:48 -!- oklopol has joined. 04:30:30 -!- moozilla has joined. 04:33:17 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:13:56 -!- moozilla has joined. 05:15:56 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:33:35 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:44:47 -!- moozilla has joined. 05:47:31 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:56:21 -!- SpaceMan has joined. 06:56:35 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 06:57:00 -!- SpaceMan has changed nick to SpaceManPlusPlus. 06:57:29 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has left (?). 06:57:29 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has joined. 06:58:41 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has quit (Client Quit). 07:03:33 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit. 07:03:38 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 07:03:56 damn snow -.- 07:04:13 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:09:53 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:14:03 -!- moozilla has joined. 08:16:27 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:21:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:22:50 lament: why is a Welte-Reproduktionsklavier not a piano which reproduces universes. i am so disappointed. 08:23:22 every piano reproduces universes. 08:23:31 they do? 08:23:40 -!- pikhq has joined. 08:23:45 of course. Haven't you ever listened to one? 08:24:06 i thought i had. i must do so more carefully. 08:24:19 yes, listen for the universe 08:25:51 oerjan needs to read GEB 08:26:04 for some good universe creation in pianos, listen to some fugues and canons 08:26:17 hm 08:26:30 nah, just listen to any good music 08:27:31 which would include at its highest ranks, fugues and canons 08:27:32 from bach 08:27:33 :) 08:29:18 biased eh 08:29:37 i had a phase for a few years when i listened only to bach 08:29:45 oh well thats stupid 08:29:59 actually i mostly played bach instead 08:30:05 well-tempered clavier 08:30:48 now i listen to mozart more... 08:31:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 08:31:22 well tempered clavier, yes 08:31:27 very GEB 08:32:19 i have his cello suites 08:32:20 <3 08:35:53 -!- CentHOGG has joined. 08:36:12 ?? 08:38:07 -!- Mony has joined. 08:38:35 so im building a database 08:38:42 an object-oriented style database, actually 08:38:50 hi 08:38:57 and the type object for numbers? 42. 08:39:00 not even intentional 08:39:21 id number is 42, i mean 08:40:25 im not going to answer that. 08:40:53 sorry 08:43:22 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 08:50:22 -!- CentHOGG has quit ("Leaving"). 08:50:56 -!- moozilla has joined. 08:52:12 more like 'CentHOGG has left IRC ("Don't get H2G2 references.")' -.- 08:52:43 I thought that that was mandatory reading? 08:52:53 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined. 08:53:29 -!- bsmntbom1dood has quit (Client Quit). 08:53:44 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:08:31 you'd think it wouldnt been to be mandatory 09:13:36 what's h2g2? 09:13:41 i wioll haven thunk so, but not yet 09:14:35 oh hitchhikers guide to the galaxy 09:14:36 meh 09:15:32 *think 09:56:33 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:11:32 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:12:22 why is h2g2 the abbreviation of hgttg? 10:17:27 apparently because neil gaiman can't count 10:18:20 hm wait 10:18:28 maybe he just left out the small words 10:19:00 but then, why two h's... 10:19:51 HitchHikers 10:20:03 I KNOW THAT 10:20:09 it just doesn't make sense 10:20:15 i agree 10:20:28 but then, nothing in the books did, so i guess that's okay 10:20:59 wonder if i should read them 10:21:17 * oerjan actually just read the first two 10:21:28 i've been thinking about reading a fictious book at some point 10:21:48 how many are there 10:21:56 infinitely many 10:22:04 so 4? 10:22:31 i'm sure there are more than 4 fictious books 10:22:38 i mean h2g2's 10:23:08 i know there are over 10 fictious books 10:23:31 it's hard to count them i think 10:23:50 why is it hard 10:23:51 at least 5 were published when DA was alive 10:24:08 how come did it be hard now 10:24:43 then there is a posthumous collection 10:25:11 and they are of course intending to get someone else to write more 10:25:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy#And_Another_Thing... 10:30:07 It's been abbreviated hhgttg by the people "around here"; but I guess h2g2 is the most common one. 10:31:25 -!- oerjan has quit ("Rebus"). 10:40:58 posthumorous 11:13:31 -!- Mony has quit ("brb"). 11:29:50 -!- Asztal has joined. 12:39:18 -!- moozilla has joined. 12:41:46 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:46:22 -!- kar8nga has joined. 12:49:18 -!- Corun has joined. 13:31:42 -!- moozilla has joined. 13:50:56 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:05:10 Deewiant, there? 14:05:16 happen to know the url for NCRS? 14:10:26 I have been unable to locate it 14:11:07 ah wait, same as JSTR I guess 14:14:07 ah yes 14:17:49 -!- moozilla has joined. 14:29:56 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:49:32 -!- moozilla has joined. 15:01:45 Hi ais523. 15:03:16 -!- Mony has joined. 15:04:50 Hey. 15:05:08 Hey. 15:05:23 +ul (())(~(S)*:Sa~:^):^ <--- I really like that one 15:05:36 +ul (())(~(S)*:Sa~:^):^ 15:05:37 ()S(()S)S((()S)S)S(((()S)S)S)S((((()S)S)S)S)S(((((()S)S)S)S)S)S((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S(((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S((((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S(((((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S ...too much output! 15:05:39 :D 15:05:50 +ul ()S(()S)S((()S)S)S(((()S)S)S)S((((()S)S)S)S)S(((((()S)S)S)S)S)S((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S(((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S((((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S(((((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S 15:05:50 ()S(()S)S((()S)S)S(((()S)S)S)S((((()S)S)S)S)S(((((()S)S)S)S)S)S((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S(((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S((((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S 15:05:52 wait what's that 15:05:54 oh 15:05:56 :D 15:05:58 oklopol: infinite quine generator 15:06:00 yes 15:06:12 +ul ()S(()S)S 15:06:12 ()S 15:06:25 wtf@this error 15:06:42 +ul ( 15:06:42 ...out of time! 15:06:51 Here thutubot, have this time! 15:06:54 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:07:10 okay who wants to fix my c compiling error 15:07:16 it's a quine that contains no loops, the output of that 15:07:22 which therefore has to be infinitely long 15:07:31 Heh. 15:07:56 also, the out of time error is because Thutu programs have a tendency to go into infinite loops when it they see something they don't understand 15:07:58 PRINT(PRINT(PRINT( 15:08:03 in this case, the infiniloop was in the interp, not the program 15:08:45 anyone? :p 15:09:03 I hate C, ehird 15:09:10 And I must write it :( 15:10:02 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:10:44 ehird: paste the error, and I'll have a look 15:10:48 preferably a few lines of context too 15:11:01 /opt/local/include/evhttp.h:106: error: parse error before ‘TAILQ_ENTRY’ 15:11:01 /opt/local/include/evhttp.h:106: warning: no semicolon at end of struct or union 15:11:03 /opt/local/include/evhttp.h:149: error: parse error before ‘}’ token 15:11:09 that's all the errors for that file 15:11:15 (not my program, ofc :P) 15:11:22 but it's stopping a compilation and uh wtf 15:11:46 could you show me the context around line 106? 15:12:49 yepers: 15:12:59 TAILQ_ENTRY(evhttp_request) next; 15:13:06 context: 15:13:06 struct evhttp_request { 15:13:07 TAILQ_ENTRY(evhttp_request) next; 15:13:09 /* the connection object that this request belongs to */ 15:13:11 struct evhttp_connection *evcon; 15:13:14 int flags; 15:13:16 and no 15:13:17 it doesn't define it 15:13:19 nor include anything 15:13:21 presumably the using program has to import another header first 15:13:33 but this program is used by others; presumably they have no problem 15:13:35 so, yeah, wtf 15:13:45 yes, that seems a pretty clear case of TAILQ_ENTRY not meaning anything in this context 15:14:26 well, duh 15:14:31 I'm wondering what the hell is up :D 15:15:01 actually, looking at the context there, it's attempting to create a struct with a pointer to itself 15:15:24 so tailq_entry's probably doing some sort of clever trick to make a linked list or something 15:15:34 a bit silly, really, because a pointer would do just as well 15:15:39 as far as I can tell, the problem is that TAILQ_ENTRY is not defined. 15:15:54 yes, it indeed sounds like it should be in some header file 15:15:59 try googling for TAILQ_ENTRY? 15:16:01 I did 15:16:06 but the thing is 15:16:10 did you turn up anything useful? 15:16:13 this program isn't uncommon 15:16:19 i doubt it forgot to include a header or something 15:16:25 because, you know, people use it and compile it fine 15:16:29 so why is it happening in my case? 15:16:33 also, no 15:16:34 it could be designed for a common compiler you don't use, for instance 15:16:34 God hates you 15:16:39 I was wondering vaguely if it was a MSVC-ism 15:16:49 uhh, no. 15:16:53 considering I installed the library with macports. 15:18:24 anyway, try #include at the start of the program and see if it helps 15:19:15 apparently it's in that header file in Darwin, therefore presumably in Mac OS X too 15:19:45 that is something I will avoid. a) this is a checkout from git, so I'd have to deal with merging each time I update it, b) the main developer, iirc, uses OS X, leading on to c) nobody else seems to have this problem 15:19:59 so I'm thinking how to solve it d) with some build system flag or something that I may have missed 15:20:13 also 15:20:15 it includes #include 15:20:16 before evhttp.h 15:20:34 gcc has an "include-this-header" command-line switch, IIRC 15:20:42 right, but i shouldn't have to do that :) 15:20:52 /* Fix so that ppl dont have to run with */ 15:20:53 #ifndef TAILQ_ENTRY 15:20:53 #define _EVENT_DEFINED_TQENTRY 15:20:56 #define TAILQ_ENTRY(type)\ 15:20:57 struct {\ 15:20:59 struct type *tqe_next;/* next element */\ 15:21:01 struct type **tqe_prev;/* address of previous next element */\ 15:21:03 } 15:21:05 #endif /* !TAILQ_ENTRY */ 15:21:07 -- event.h 15:21:09 and yet it includes event.h before evhttp.h 15:21:11 * ehird 's WTF-O-METER goes off 15:21:50 wtffffffffffffffffffffffff 15:22:00 ais523: and TAILQ_ENTRY works in event.h! 15:22:06 yes, my bogometer is ringing high too 15:22:07 but when one line later it includes evhttp.h, it fails! 15:22:11 what the HECK 15:22:29 * ehird runs thru cpp 15:23:14 ok, the TAILQ_ENTRY is just not being expanded 15:23:19 what the hhelllllllllllll 15:23:36 this makes like the least sense ever 15:24:15 * ais523 wonders if 'type' was #defined earlier, to confuse issues 15:24:18 although it shouldn't have been 15:24:28 nah 15:24:30 #include 15:24:33 #include 15:24:35 through cpp 15:24:40 the event.h TAILQ_ENTRY uses work fine 15:24:46 but then as soon as you get to evhttp.h? 15:24:48 it's just left in 15:24:49 verbatim 15:24:58 that's... just... what 15:25:52 i mean... 15:25:55 no sense at all 15:26:07 that is not how the c preprocessor works so... 15:26:09 I just don't get it. WTF?! 15:26:10 hmm... do you have precompiled headers on? 15:26:22 ais523: i'm not sure how that would change anything but no afaik. 15:26:22 I can sort-of figure out how they would cause that bug 15:26:52 (basically, earlier header files can't define symbols in later header files that don't include them, if the header files are precompiled) 15:27:01 ah. 15:27:07 well, how can I turn off precompilation for that? 15:27:15 which compiler, gcc? 15:27:33 yeah 15:27:47 oh my god 15:27:58 ais523: 15:28:00 you will not believe this 15:28:04 % cat /opt/local/include/event.h /opt/local/include/evhttp.h| cpp -I/opt/local/include|e 15:28:06 STILL VERBATIM 15:28:13 WHAT THE HECK AHAHAAHAHAHAHAH 15:28:20 hmm, gcc seems to have protection against that sort of thing, it refuses to use more than one precompiled header in a compilation for exactly that reason 15:28:25 i mean, WHAT 15:28:28 and if it does use one, it has to be the first one 15:28:28 do you hear what I'm saying? 15:28:32 I catted the two files together 15:28:34 and yes 15:28:36 and it's still verbatim 15:28:37 in the second 15:28:38 one 15:28:40 I mean. just 15:28:42 I mea... 15:28:46 whattttttttttt 15:28:50 maybe there's a typo in the second which is affecting it somehow 15:29:05 TAILQ_ENTRY (event) ev_next; 15:29:05 vs 15:29:06 TAILQ_ENTRY(evhttp_request) next; 15:29:20 and no, there is absolutely no way it's the space :-P 15:29:26 agreed 15:29:34 no stray backslash at the end of the previous line? 15:29:41 no /* comment that was accidentally never closed? 15:29:49 no, this is from cpp output 15:29:59 and it's stripping comments? 15:30:03 yes. 15:30:14 are there any #line or # directives nearby? 15:30:27 about 50 lines earlier 15:30:28 # 401 "" 15:30:31 they're often a clue as to what cpp was thinking 15:30:34 on the line of 15:30:35 #endif /* _EVENT_H_ */ 15:30:40 signifying the next file in the cat, ofc 15:30:58 ok, so in other words nothing there's expanded into multiple lines 15:31:10 but that's not surprising 15:31:16 given there are no include comments there 15:31:29 *include directives 15:31:45 ok i will try the ultimate test 15:31:46 I suppose the macro in question wasn't undefed by a stray undef? 15:31:58 if this fails, I will put a gun to my head 15:32:05 umm 15:32:07 ais523: yes. 15:32:11 #ifdef _EVENT_DEFINED_TQENTRY 15:32:11 #undef TAILQ_ENTRY 15:32:15 in event.h 15:32:18 wtf is up with that 15:32:21 ok, that's simple enough 15:32:24 also, how come evhttp.h (from the SAME PACKAGE) uses it 15:32:28 even though it can't 15:32:30 and how come this program 15:32:32 and an obvious explanation why the define of tailq_entry wasn't carrying over 15:32:32 developed on os x 15:32:34 doesn't include sys/queue 15:32:36 as a workaround 15:32:48 and how come it builds for everyone else. 15:36:40 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 15:39:23 so. 15:45:54 -!- oklopol has joined. 15:51:41 my package manager wants to uninstall the kernel, I hope it knows what it's doing 15:54:21 heh 15:54:25 ais523: any ideas as to what I should do? 15:54:40 not really 15:54:55 maybe see if you can find one of the everyone else for whom it built, and ask them what happened? 15:55:08 i'm asking in the irc channel but it's idle-haven 15:56:23 OK, rebooting, if I don't come back up within about 10 minutes it's probably because I accidentally deleted my OS 15:56:27 :) 16:00:17 $ uname -a 16:00:19 Linux dell 2.6.27-11-generic #1 SMP Fri Dec 19 16:29:52 UTC 2008 i686 GNU/Linux 16:00:20 yay, it worked 16:00:22 hi thar. 16:00:43 I just added an #include :P 16:01:10 [[mmph... 5 to 100 days remaining is not a useful measure for a file download to give...]] 16:01:17 ehird: [[is that Vista?]] 16:01:20 * ehird continues his Insane Task (write an httpd) 16:01:27 ais523: no, it's a torrent :-P 16:01:56 it's possible that the 100 is it predicting me being jailed for copyright infringement and thus my computer confiscated 16:02:11 well, if it's an illegal torrent then in theory that ought to happen 16:02:14 after all, this is a mac, the software is really clever right? 16:02:20 never tell me where you live, just in case... 16:02:30 ais523: depends on your definition of "ought" :-P 16:02:38 deep, I know 16:02:46 I don't like doing illegal things, or other people doing them 16:03:04 although I admit that given that this is the Internet, it's pretty much impossible to convince anyone of that 16:03:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:03:34 in the case of "intellectual property infringement", the laws are broken to the Nth degree 16:03:51 there are several laws, some are more broken than others 16:03:59 trademark law is almost sane, for instance, just out of date 16:04:59 * ehird , with newly compiled interpreter, sets on quest: Write decent httpd. 16:05:03 Then use it for everything. 16:05:15 What do you mean that won't be easy. 16:05:19 what's your definition of 'decent' here? 16:05:24 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:05:29 does everything I want it to do 16:05:37 fast. 16:05:48 and with low memory usage and high scalability 16:05:51 I will accept nothing less :-P 16:05:57 secure? 16:06:09 also, what language? 16:06:15 Yes; since I'm writing it in a HLL I doubt I'll be getting buffer overflows. 16:06:23 And Io, a minimal prototype-based OO language. http://iolanguage.com. 16:06:31 ehird: you never know... 16:06:44 It's built with embeddability and concurrency in mind, and even has some syntax for futures and such. 16:06:45 and I know of Io and its paradigm, although haven't worked with it in detail 16:06:54 And it has async IO functionalities, so it's a good fit. 16:08:04 Hopefully it'll also have in-server scripting for blazing fast webapps, but sandboxed appropriately so you can't mess up the server. 16:08:10 That would be nice. 16:08:12 -!- moozilla has joined. 16:09:20 Does there exist a decent Perl to Brainfuck parser / compiler? 16:09:26 yeah, I pasted that in ##nomic 16:09:32 that's so lol for about 5 reasons 16:09:37 which you all know so I wont' repeat :D 16:09:37 maybe I should have pointed out that parsing Perl is uncomputable 16:09:41 yes 16:09:51 also, that writing brainfuck by hand IS possible 16:09:52 and not that hard 16:10:01 also, that being in your right mind and writing BF are mutually incompatible, duh 16:10:06 also, that Perl would be a terrible language to compile it to anyway 16:10:10 and also it'd fail at the cycle limit. 16:10:12 also, the grammar. 16:10:20 hey i just read it all out 16:10:20 woop 16:10:29 hmm, Server handleSocket isn't called asynchronously. 16:10:30 maybe I should try to get gcc-BF to compile the Perl interpreter at some point 16:10:30 that is odd 16:10:54 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:11:03 ehird: maybe it's using Java's model for asynchrony (create a thread and run it synchronously there) 16:11:19 no; it's just that you're meant to do the asynchronous call inside handleSocket 16:12:21 ok, now to come up with a method name to asynchronously call 16:12:27 reallyHandleSocket? :P{ 16:12:48 handleSocket := method(aSocket, self @reallyHandleSocket(aSocket)) 16:12:48 yep. 16:14:25 ok, my server just doesn't handle more than one connection full stop, wtf 16:15:01 incidentally, I think I can protect this server against ddos attacks pretty well 16:15:03 especially fuzz ones 16:15:13 as soon as you know you've got some invalid http, drop the connection 16:15:27 what if someone tries to instantly reconnect? 16:17:58 ais523: there's no way to both handle all valid requests and protect against a well-formed, mass DDoS attack of course 16:17:58 but some rate limiting shouldn't be too hard 16:18:09 e.g. "if user is giving us 100 requests a second, ban" :P 16:18:23 well, arguably being linked from Slashdot is a legitimate DDOS attack 16:18:58 ais523: there's a difference between "many many users making few requests" 16:19:06 and "any number of users making a huge amount of request" 16:19:07 s 16:19:13 the first should be allowed, the second should be blocked 16:19:42 the first is a DDOS, though, by definition 16:19:51 the second is just a DOS 16:20:28 ais523: actually, no - a DDOS would be "many users making many requests" 16:20:41 slashdotting = many users making few requests 16:20:47 it depends on how distributed it is, I suppose 16:20:47 dos = few users making many requests 16:20:51 ddos = many users making many requests 16:20:57 ais523: and you can block the latter two with the same logic 16:21:03 if you block a dos, you block a ddos 16:21:10 as it's just many doses 16:22:03 at best you can turn a DDOS into a Slashdot, then... 16:22:36 since each user gets at least one try before you detect it 16:23:25 aha, I needed a new libevent for Socket 16:23:31 oerjan: well, yes 16:23:44 but a DDOS _that_ distributed is almost impossible to get 16:24:00 unless you have a botnet 16:24:04 slashdotting works because slashdot is a highly established site that has got views by linking to interesting content nicely over the years 16:24:12 oerjan: yes, again 16:24:15 ehird: it crosses my mind that you might be able to manage it by hotlinking an image on your site into the Wikipedia UI 16:24:29 but how likely is a botnet attacking one site? 16:24:29 if you kept it small and hidden, nobody might notice it for a while 16:24:34 unless it's like a virus researcher 16:43:28 ais523, hi 16:44:04 hi 16:45:14 -!- moozilla has joined. 16:47:53 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:53:53 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:03:32 * ehird tries to think of a name for HTTPHandler that conveys that it handles the low-level HTTP sockets and thus not clash with the high level HTTPHandlers 17:04:36 LowLevelHTTPHandler? 17:04:44 nse 17:04:47 naw 17:04:51 it's not analogous to a HTTPHandler 17:05:06 it's "the thing that the HTTPServer clones and gives the socket when it gets a connection" 17:05:44 so one's a protocol handler, t'other's a content handler? 17:06:44 one is a high-level way to get an HTTPRequest and give an HTTPResponse, essentially 17:06:50 the one I'm naming is one that takes a socket and does stuff 17:06:54 HTTPProtocolHandler may be ideal 17:07:03 hmm, HTTPSocketHandler 17:07:06 yes, that's good 17:07:16 HTTPSocketHandler clone handleSocket :-P 17:07:41 woohoo, now I get to parse HTTP 17:07:44 can you think of anything more EXCITING? 17:08:02 parsing HTML? 17:08:22 with all the really really really interesting bits of leftover SGML stuff 17:08:30 how about parsing mork 17:08:40 http://jwz.livejournal.com/312657.html 17:10:54 * ehird writes HTTPParser, aka KillMeNow 17:16:19 ehird: will you have some anti-DDOS throttling called KillMeLater? 17:16:30 haha 17:16:32 yes! 17:17:04 whenever a client is found to be ddosing, my server will reply to its request with "Fuck you." then ban the ip 17:17:04 :D 17:18:15 * ehird invents new software versioning scheme 17:19:16 major.minor, minor increments from 0 per release, major is initially 0. major is increased when backwards compatibility-breaking changes are introduced or when the featureset is revamped to a large degree. when this happens, minor resets to 0. 17:19:38 well, major backwards compat breaking changes 17:19:45 since "featureset is revamped to a large degree" is pretty vague, major releases will be more common 17:19:56 i imagine version numbers like 5.14 will be commonplace :P 17:21:24 um wait, this is new how? 17:23:04 oerjan: well, its' not exactly _revolutionary_ 17:23:16 but minor never skips 17:23:24 and there's no even/odd stuff 17:32:10 -!- moozilla has joined. 17:35:01 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:35:49 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:44:53 hmm. 17:44:57 writing a streaming parser will be har.d 17:45:42 that's a strange name for a streaming parser, even if you use D 17:46:18 maybe it's a parser daemon 17:46:21 that goes in init.d 17:46:30 maybe 17:47:03 lol 17:47:51 my life is AWESOME 17:47:54 not only do I have to read the http spec 17:48:00 but I have to implement it as a manually-coded parser 17:48:03 KICKASS 17:48:09 "have to", you could do something else instead you know... 17:48:21 WHAT 17:49:58 * ehird considers usinga regex 17:50:02 except that would be slow. 17:51:32 "now you have two problems"... 17:51:41 although I like regexen, it's still a good joke 17:51:57 hmm, you can't check for EOF on a socket can you? 17:52:00 so I guess http servers just rely on a timeout 18:04:25 -!- Corun has joined. 18:05:01 -!- moozilla has joined. 18:07:55 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:26:57 ehird: my life is more awesome than yours 18:37:34 hi oklopol 18:37:52 hi bsmntbombdood 18:37:59 AND THEN THERE WERE MUDKIPS 18:49:23 sexy mudkips? 18:50:05 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:50:27 very sexy 18:51:40 -!- moozilla has joined. 19:02:49 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:19:52 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 19:25:15 Deewiant, hm: 19:25:16 pragma (msg, "Assuming 32-bit chtype... correct ccbi.fingerprints.jvh.ncrs.chtype to ushort if link errors ensue."); 19:25:17 alias uint chtype; 19:25:27 it seems to be unsigned long on my system? 19:29:36 xXxAnMasterxXx 19:32:40 AnMaster: chtype a long? That makes no sense at all 19:32:50 +ul ((xX)S:^):^ What's xXx anyway? 19:32:51 xXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxX ...too much output! 19:33:23 Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/dM2ImR49.html 19:33:24 isn't it a movie 19:33:26 Deewiant: well, 16 bits isn't enough for all of Unicode 19:33:43 ais523: and 64 bits is way too much 19:33:45 #if 0 && is quite confusing 19:34:01 Deewiant, depends, on i686 long is 32 bits 19:34:05 long long is 64-bit 19:34:09 AnMaster: 32 bits is too much as well 19:34:16 oerjan: straightedge 19:34:18 and on 64-bits long long is 64-bits 19:34:20 and so is long 19:34:27 unicode fits well into 21 bits 19:34:33 or was it 20, I forget 19:34:54 Deewiant, ncursesw would need the full 32 bits, but this is plain ncurses 19:35:05 AnMaster is hXc 19:35:08 in any case see the paste 19:35:25 Deewiant, on 32-bit platforms that would end up as int32_t 19:35:33 on x86_64 it would be int64_t 19:35:34 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:35:39 well that is x86 and amd64 19:35:42 no idea about ppc and such 19:35:45 at least PDcurses does it right 19:36:13 http://rafb.net/p/gDsSdU70.html 19:37:05 Deewiant, ah attr too 19:37:08 that is quite interesting 19:39:37 welp, in any case there's no way I can know the correct type without doing something autoconf-like so all I can do is change the pragma msg :-P 19:40:09 Deewiant: compare blah_MAX from limits.h? 19:40:15 that's a way to find out type sizes in the preprocessor 19:40:16 Deewiant, btw you have two bugs in your code I think 19:40:40 1) you don't check if wgetch returned ERR, the specs say you should reflect on error for all instructions 19:40:44 ais523: I can't see the original chtype type without going through C and I don't want to do that 19:40:48 (remember, this is D) 19:40:57 2) initscr() exits on error, doesn't return ERR 19:41:00 use newterm() instead 19:41:08 in a complex usage pattern 19:41:10 Deewiant: ah, ok 19:41:14 so yes two error handling bugs decipher 19:41:14 err 19:41:16 does D have #define? 19:41:16 Deewiant, ^ 19:41:28 if it does, you could include the C header and hope that it happened to also be legal D 19:41:38 ais523, nice one 19:41:40 D does not have #define 19:41:43 ah, ok 19:42:59 AnMaster: looking at the PDcurses source they both exit() 19:43:18 Deewiant, well that means CCBI is non-conforming I'm afraid :P 19:43:25 when using pdcurses 19:43:45 sucks to be on windows 19:43:48 can't be helped 19:44:09 A program that needs to inspect capabilities, so it can continue to run in a line-oriented mode if the terminal cannot support a screen-oriented program, would also use newterm. 19:44:14 is what the man page says here 19:44:25 In some implementations of curses, newterm() allows the use of 19:44:25 multiple terminals. Here, it's just an alternative interface for 19:44:25 initscr(). It always returns SP, or NULL. 19:44:45 is there a way to 'catch' exit somehow? 19:44:53 Deewiant, not afaik 19:45:01 damn C 19:45:04 I'm pretty sure ncurses exist for cygwin 19:45:08 cygwin sucks 19:45:14 decipher, damn pdcurses rather 19:47:34 thing I really dislike about C preprocessor: the need for do { ... } while(0) hack 19:48:16 meh 19:49:39 Deewiant, the error handling in your clear() may be wrong too 19:49:40 not sure 19:49:48 AnMaster: as for wgetch, I don't think it can return ERR 19:50:12 not where and how it's used, anyway 19:50:26 wgetch 19:50:26 returns an error if the window pointer is null, or if its timeout expires without having any data. 19:50:33 yes, exactly 19:50:42 the window is stdscr and hence never null 19:50:44 Deewiant, in that implementation 19:50:46 and it has no timeout 19:50:52 I think implementation can define additional errors 19:50:52 hence it doesn't return an error 19:51:10 if that was ncurses then I'm good because PDCurses says the same :-P 19:51:16 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:51:30 Deewiant, future ncurses versions could return ERR :P 19:51:41 I doubt it 19:52:47 NOTES 19:52:48 Note that erase, werase, clear, wclear, clrtobot, and clrtoeol may be macros. 19:52:50 interesting 19:52:56 and you use werase 19:52:58 and many others as well 19:53:17 Deewiant, your code would fail it it was a macro 19:53:32 meh 19:53:37 it's not a macro in pdcurses 19:54:00 ah well 19:54:08 nor in ncurses, however plain erase() is 19:54:18 yes because MACROS ARE MORE OPTIMAL 19:54:26 what's wrong with these people 19:54:27 Deewiant, I didn't claim that 19:54:29 *shrug* 19:54:47 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:54:48 maybe because it seemed like a waste to just have a function like: 19:55:12 int erase(void) { return werease(stdscr); } 19:55:21 yes but it's not a waste to have a macro 19:55:22 riiight 19:55:30 Deewiant, I didn't say that 19:55:41 no, you didn't, but your argument would imply that 19:55:54 Deewiant, I didn't say that I agreed with them either 19:56:00 no, you didn't 19:56:01 I just said that may be the logic behind it 19:56:12 and I followed that logic somewhat 19:56:38 you should have stopped and asked for directions a few times during that trip :P 19:56:59 nah, I made it fine, just aggravated 19:58:04 E (m -- ) Set echo mode to m (1 == echo, 0 == noecho). 19:58:05 hm 19:58:13 your code only checks if it is "true/false" 19:58:24 I don't know D, but what would that do on, say, 2 19:58:31 void toggleEcho () { if ((ip.stack.pop ? echo () : noecho()) == ERR) reverse(); } 19:58:53 2 is UNDEF and true 19:58:58 I don't know exactly what it does but probably it should reverse on 2 or so 19:58:59 same as C 19:59:06 yeah, I suppose 19:59:08 since it is a non-allowed value 20:00:02 -!- moozilla has joined. 20:02:47 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:04:10 Deewiant, the NCRS mycology test has some issues 20:04:25 like asking to press enter a few times when any other char works 20:04:39 it might not work in a future version of curses :-P 20:05:06 Deewiant, hm, also it says "press any function key", using a "h" works fine 20:05:15 This should be at the top of the screen 20:05:16 dThe rest of the screen should have cleared 20:05:16 Trying to overwrite above with M and C, press any key to continue... 20:05:18 that is from ccbi 20:05:19 yes but the UNDEF result is not what you want 20:05:23 one newline eaten 20:05:51 Deewiant, the spurious d there is from using d instead of enter 20:05:52 if it asks you to press key X that doesn't mean that you can't press key Y, only that results are undefined if you do 20:06:16 Press any function key to continue... 20:06:16 Got 266 20:06:20 is that correct for F1? 20:06:27 it's platform-specific 20:06:33 great... 20:06:34 and various other things -specific probably 20:07:07 nice ccbi gives 265 for F1 instead 20:07:09 that makes no sense 20:07:21 heh 20:07:28 void get() { ip.stack.push(cast(cell)wgetch(stdscr)); } 20:07:34 I assume that was the function used? 20:08:03 I don't know, see the char it corresponds to in the static constructor 20:08:03 ok... now cfunge give me 265 too... 20:08:10 must have pressed the wrong key 20:08:11 first time 20:08:13 I guess 20:08:43 -!- Corun has joined. 20:08:46 Deewiant, well get() is G but: 20:08:48 Press any function key to continue... 20:08:49 Got 265 20:08:53 doesn't say what one 20:13:12 PORTABILITY 20:13:13 These functions are described in the XSI Curses standard, Issue 4. It specifies that portable applications must not call initscr more than once. 20:13:15 Deewiant, heh ^ 20:13:26 oh and initscr() may be a macro :P 20:13:46 oh great, for what 20:13:57 NOTES 20:13:57 Note that initscr and newterm may be macros. 20:14:01 not that it is on my system 20:14:06 just that is mentioned 20:14:16 there are a lot of issues with that 20:14:22 is Xinitscr standard? 20:14:32 no, it's not 20:14:37 No manual entry for Xinitscr 20:14:38 but, uh 20:14:46 what the hell can be used if initscr is a macro 20:14:57 Deewiant, a C wrapper 20:14:59 for everything 20:15:09 also it should use proper prefix 20:15:11 no, I don't want to do that :-P 20:15:12 since it is a library 20:15:22 I mean, cur_foo 20:15:22 prefix? 20:15:23 or something 20:15:25 that would 20:15:32 nah, curses is too old for that 20:15:33 prevent stuff like this, in say C++ 20:15:37 myclass.clear() 20:15:46 they didn't do that stuff back then and now it's been around too long to change it :-P 20:15:56 / argh! this calls myclass.wclear(stdscr); 20:16:01 //* 20:16:08 or such 20:16:21 see what I mean? 20:16:38 on the other hand at least I don't get linking errors now 20:16:45 since I have some functions that would collide 20:16:48 with the ncurses ones 20:16:52 if they weren't macros 20:17:13 solution to all namespacing problems: make everything a macro! 20:17:25 Deewiant, that has the other mentioned downside 20:33:25 la. 20:35:29 Deewiant, it may be unportable to use TERM and then NCRS I think 20:35:38 in the same process 20:36:01 depends on how you implement them, but since you can probably assume TERM use termcap and that will use ncurses on linux... 20:37:01 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:37:15 based on the docs of TERM I claim that you can use TERM whenever you want without any harmful effects 20:37:21 if the OS can't handle that, tough 20:37:38 implementation defined if the OS can or not 20:39:00 -!- moozilla has joined. 20:41:34 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:48:41 Deewiant, TERM and NCRS interact badly 20:48:48 since both mess with stdscr 21:01:52 Deewiant, btw have you noticed how unusable NCRS is? No other fingerprint producing output may work 21:01:59 such as BASE, STRN or FPDP 21:02:46 Or , or . 21:02:57 indeed 21:03:23 * AnMaster tries to make TERM and NCRS work together 21:03:25 it is a pain 21:10:33 Deewiant, there is no way TERM and NCRS will play together nicely 21:10:46 I can special case the code path for mycoterm to make it work 21:10:56 but I don't think I can solve the general case 21:11:06 say TERM after NCRS now 21:11:52 why not 21:12:03 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:15:21 -!- oklopol has joined. 21:17:07 -!- moozilla has joined. 21:17:32 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 21:18:58 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:19:48 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:24:47 -!- sebbu2 has quit (No route to host). 21:38:50 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 21:42:36 -!- moozilla has joined. 21:47:08 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 21:53:59 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:13:15 -!- moozilla has joined. 22:23:25 GregorR: SOmeone stole your game!! 22:23:31 http://www.wikiwarp.com/ 22:23:48 I didn't invent the game :P 22:24:03 Shush you 22:24:06 I like to be sensational 22:24:57 Yeah, but so's your face. 22:25:28 Yeah but so's your faeces 22:29:59 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:35:15 Deewiant, simple, NCRS I collides with TERM 22:35:32 when you unload NCRS with I you mess up the ncurses data structures 22:35:54 it is impossible to fix 22:36:06 since TERM has nothing like I 22:36:16 you can't check for unload/reload 22:36:26 can't you reload ncurses when TERM is ('d 22:36:49 Deewiant, yes you can use I to initialize NCRS 22:37:06 but: you can't unload NCRS in this order: 22:37:09 load TERM: 22:37:12 ok 22:37:18 load NCRS: ok 22:37:26 Use 1I 22:37:27 ok 22:37:32 Use 0I: ok 22:37:38 Use any TERM function: crash 22:37:58 just make 0I not actually unload if TERM is alive 22:38:14 then it would actually break the functionality 22:38:25 it would be non-conforming 22:38:32 oh and of course you can't use more than exactly one 1I and one 0I during a session 22:38:59 since calling initscr() more than once is undefined behaviour 22:39:20 TERM use setupterm() that it seems you can use multiple times, initscr() calls setupterm() 22:39:45 and I'm not making all of cfunge use ncurses, no way 22:40:06 it may be possible, but painful, to notify the other module of changes 22:40:08 as they happen 22:40:27 well that'd be the easiest way :-P 22:40:32 would make them slow since they need to check state flags all the time 22:40:34 o 22:40:46 not a lot of overhead I guess 22:41:02 Deewiant, oh and I believe ccbi may be invoking UD there 22:42:21 where? 22:42:30 ah now you just don't support TERM on posix 22:42:35 s/now/no/ 22:42:38 yep 22:43:00 Deewiant, I see you ask for help there 22:43:03 * AnMaster looks at the code 22:43:07 what was the issue with it 22:43:32 I read the specs and did stuff and stuff didn't seem to work at all :-P 22:43:36 I can't remember, it's been months 22:43:45 well you know I can't compile it 22:43:47 and you did say that you got stuff to work using termcap directly 22:44:08 nah, you just haven't bothered to set yourself up to compile it 22:44:15 but yeah, in any case 22:44:19 Deewiant, I was using ncurses/termcap stuff yes 22:44:23 based on what you said I might as well drop it 22:44:30 AnMaster: you use ncurses in TERM? 22:44:53 Deewiant, ... 22:45:13 NAME 22:45:13 del_curterm, mvcur, putp, restartterm, set_curterm, setterm, setupterm, tigetflag, tigetnum, tigetstr, tparm, tputs, vid_attr, vid_puts, vidattr, vidputs - 22:45:13 curses interfaces to terminfo database 22:45:13 SYNOPSIS 22:45:13 #include 22:45:17 #include 22:45:19 see the include curses? 22:45:40 wtf 22:45:43 $ qfile /usr/include/term.h 22:45:43 sys-libs/ncurses (/usr/include/term.h) 22:45:45 what's the lowest level 22:45:45 see that? 22:45:50 yes, I am not blind 22:46:02 well they are provided by the same package 22:46:18 what is the lowest level of functionality which allows this 22:46:19 which is WHY TERM and NCRS collide 22:46:21 is it not the shell 22:46:24 and its escape codes 22:46:25 eh? 22:46:31 shell has escape codes? 22:46:33 very funny 22:46:37 erm 22:46:40 you mean the terminal or the terminal emulator 22:46:44 yes 22:46:54 well yes that is it 22:46:55 my point is, why the fuck does that use curses 22:47:12 Deewiant, *same package providing both interfaces on linux* 22:47:28 sigh, so you didn't answer my question 22:47:31 do you use ncurses 22:47:33 in TERM 22:47:35 or not 22:47:42 I don't care what the header includes 22:47:45 yes, I use the term.h interface, which is provided by ncurses 22:47:56 which is what you used too I see 22:48:45 right, but you don't use any of the higher-level curses functions 22:48:53 not in TERM no 22:48:57 only in NCRS 22:49:10 and TERM and NCRS collide basically, since they both end up messing with the same low level terminal info static variables 22:49:13 internally in ncurses 22:49:25 alright, so then screw TERM 22:49:30 why? 22:49:35 TERM is more useful IMO 22:49:53 anyway I plan to have both and track state between them 22:50:07 I already do something like that between SOCK and SCKE 22:50:35 meh 22:50:40 whatever, I'm going to sleep 22:50:44 heh 22:54:10 -!- moozilla has joined. 23:15:49 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:19:57 -!- Mony has quit ("'night"). 23:27:41 } > kill cockatrice 23:27:42 } 23:27:43 } With what? Your bare hands? 23:27:46 } 23:27:47 } > yes 23:27:49 -- internet oracle bestof 23:33:33 ^bool 23:33:33 No. 23:33:39 another episode? 23:33:40 ^bool 23:33:40 Yes. 23:33:43 okay. 23:38:20 Go to bed? 23:38:22 ^bool 23:38:23 No. 23:38:29 okay. 23:43:47 hi oerjan 23:43:50 hi oklopol 23:44:03 Will you say No? 23:44:04 ^bool 23:44:04 No. 23:44:08 ... 23:44:10 O SHI 23:44:12 fungot knows 23:44:13 oerjan: which include, but a player may spend one note of that player's possession. the muq of the 23:44:23 * ehird has quit (connection reset by paradox) 23:46:42 fizzie: plz 2 be fixing paradox 23:58:18 http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page 23:58:18 Wikipædia is a project tae big a free encyclopædia in mony leids. 2008-12-21: 00:05:20 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:11:14 -!- Corun has joined. 00:11:29 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 00:13:45 -!- oklopol has joined. 00:14:59 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:15:14 -!- oklopol has joined. 00:22:31 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:57:53 -!- moozilla has joined. 01:10:32 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:20:13 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:25:35 -!- Judofyr has quit. 01:40:16 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 02:24:01 -!- moozilla has joined. 02:26:39 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:59:19 -!- moozilla has joined. 03:01:57 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:44:00 -!- moozilla has joined. 03:46:20 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:03:26 -!- Corun has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:03:42 -!- Corun has joined. 04:12:03 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 04:15:37 -!- moozilla has joined. 04:17:49 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:43:39 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:59:03 -!- moozilla has joined. 05:20:23 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:32:40 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 06:10:52 -!- moozilla has joined. 06:32:23 -!- moozilla has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:57:01 -!- moozilla has joined. 06:59:37 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:00:10 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 07:29:18 -!- moozilla has joined. 07:31:59 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:45:27 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:48:54 -!- SpaceMan has joined. 07:49:16 -!- SpaceMan has left (?). 07:49:16 -!- SpaceMan has joined. 07:49:40 -!- SpaceMan has quit (Client Quit). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:11:42 -!- moozilla has joined. 08:14:37 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:25:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:44:36 -!- moozilla has joined. 09:00:38 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:12:24 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 09:24:19 -!- moozilla has joined. 09:45:24 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:02:49 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:17:33 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:27:32 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 10:47:44 -!- moozilla has joined. 11:00:02 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:29:18 -!- Mony has joined. 11:29:33 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:30:30 plop 11:31:19 hiiii 12:11:02 -!- moozilla has joined. 12:13:28 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:27:06 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:30:05 yay for oprofile 12:35:54 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:48:49 -!- moozilla has joined. 12:51:14 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:09:38 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection reset by peer). 13:14:02 -!- AnMaster has joined. 13:32:03 AnMaster: you're an oprophile too? 13:33:11 (hmm... is that coprophilia with your eyes closed? :\) 13:35:07 -!- Asztal has joined. 13:36:12 -!- moozilla has joined. 13:38:33 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:38:37 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:44:26 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 14:09:06 -!- moozilla has joined. 14:10:46 oklopol, huh? 14:11:17 AnMaster: lowbrow pun 14:11:17 I haven't used the system level profiler oprofile much before, but it turned out to be really useful 14:11:29 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:11:43 Ara T. Howard 14:11:44 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:11:47 well two puns in a way 14:12:31 sigh 14:12:40 :-) 14:12:53 i don't know oprofile 14:12:58 then again, my o 14:12:58 zat was not funny! 14:13:01 's don' 14:13:04 t need profiling 14:13:10 and i'm a bit enter-happy it seems 14:13:17 http://oprofile.sourceforge.net btw 14:13:23 AnMaster: yes it was funny! 14:13:36 oklopol, and what did I quote there above? 14:14:02 maybe misquoted since I quoted from memory 14:14:43 * AnMaster waits for oklopol to find that 14:14:47 that out* 14:15:26 brb 14:15:26 what do you mean 14:15:36 i'm so confuzzled! 14:16:40 back 14:16:41 well 14:16:46 zat was not funny! 14:17:01 was a quote from something 14:17:12 ohh 14:17:14 and I wonder if you know what 14:17:19 no i don't 14:17:25 Monty Python 14:17:34 * AnMaster tries to remember the name of that sketch 14:17:50 "The funniest joke in the world" or something like that iirc 14:17:57 i've heard about that 14:18:13 but i don't follow the nerd popular culture that actively 14:18:21 i've only seen like two montys 14:20:52 which ones? 14:24:07 -!- ehird has joined. 14:24:38 you know, mindlessly repeating monty python is so ironic 14:44:18 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 14:44:28 -!- Linus` has joined. 15:02:59 ehird: ironic how 15:03:14 the xkcd way? 15:03:18 how like your face. 15:03:21 oh! 15:03:22 Snap. 15:03:43 speaking of snap i want noodles 15:04:37 AnMaster: the grail one and the death one 15:05:16 although i was half-asleep through grail, i just remember the scene with the limbless knight 15:05:31 -!- moozilla has joined. 15:06:35 back to my book! 15:06:36 -> 15:08:21 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:09:18 oklopol: stop reading 15:09:21 it's bad for you 15:11:03 how could learning c++ be bad for me! 15:11:25 oklopol: why do you want to learn c++ 15:12:26 first of all i already know c++, second of all all i care about is it's a book for a course i'm on, so i'm reading it. 15:12:54 oklopol: third of all A 15:13:04 what about A 15:13:15 oklopol: it's 15:13:16 x 15:13:23 oh 15:13:30 well i don't have other reasons really 15:13:38 except, well, c++ is an okay language. 15:13:48 i hate it, yes, but it's not a bad language 15:13:49 -!- Linusz has joined. 15:15:04 i'm really only annoyed by the fact it's so fucking pedantic about the order of declarations¨ 15:15:26 well order of declarations and definitions and all that crap 15:15:30 *declarations 15:15:35 readings -> 15:15:42 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:15:45 oklopol: aaaaaaaaaaa 15:15:55 o 15:24:28 -!- moozilla has joined. 15:30:01 -!- Linus` has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:37:58 okay buy buy, i'm living now -> 15:40:38 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:54:38 Deewiant: hey, you know that haskell build system you made for your site? what was it again? 15:55:45 coadjute 15:56:03 helpful :-D 15:56:17 Ask a more specific question :-P 15:58:15 Deewiant: any links? I seem to recall it being interesting :P 15:59:08 no links I'm afraid; with any luck I'll publish some kind of 0.0 this year 16:00:18 if you want to look at something you can have it on request: my home site's file, source tarball 16:01:09 Deewiant: either would be appreciated :-P it'd also be nice to read more real-world haskell programs... I haven't got very good at that yet :D 16:02:21 iki.fi/deewiant/temp/Adjutant.hs for the former 16:02:41 not designed for readability or anything though :-P 16:02:50 Deewiant: i think it might be an idea to give the file a less obscure name ;-P 16:02:59 googlability is nice 16:03:21 true 16:03:32 but Coadjute would be googled more than Adjutant I imagine 16:04:02 yeah, but it'd be nice if Coadjute and X made some sense together so X = Adjutant :-P 16:04:16 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:04:41 -!- moozilla has joined. 16:06:30 Deewiant: i don't get how rule works 16:07:44 iki.fi/deewiant/temp/coadjute.tar.bz2 for git repo 16:08:50 rule basically makes a build rule :-P 16:09:26 I forget its type, which would probably (should hopefully) help in deciphering 16:16:49 * ehird opens emacs and grumbles 16:16:55 stupid emacs. 16:17:21 why open it if it induces grumbling 16:17:37 because editing haskell is near-impossible in anything else 16:17:46 vim works for me 16:17:56 yeah that's because you're a masochist 16:18:05 :-P 16:18:17 Deewiant: I have to learn Arrows now, don't I? 16:18:23 no, no arrows in there 16:18:28 import Control.Arrow (first, second) 16:18:38 Fuck you Haskellers and your academia and your DAMNED LIES. :-| 16:18:39 first f (x,y) = (f x, y) 16:18:43 second f (x,y) = (x, f y) 16:18:51 (f &&& g) x = (f x, g x) 16:18:54 why is that in Control dot bloody Arrow 16:18:57 (f *** g) (x,y) = (f x, g y) 16:19:09 because they're AMAZINGLY GENERAL 16:19:10 "WHERE SHOULD WE PUT THESE TRIVIAL FUNCTIONS? LET'S PICK A RANDOM ACADEMIC PLACE" 16:19:27 it's more of a coincidence that they're handy for those trivial uses, I think 16:19:34 but yeah, Data.Tuple should really have those. 16:19:35 versionString :: String 16:19:35 versionString = "the ultimate version of ultimate destiny" 16:19:41 that is some version. 16:19:55 that's one reason why it's not released yet. ;-) 16:19:57 * ehird spawns a new haskell frame and proceeds to steal your basic app structure 16:20:02 FEAR ME 16:20:06 err 16:20:08 s/haskell/emacs/ 16:20:17 oh noes, what are you doing with my app structure 16:20:33 umm, making an app that I haven't actually figured out what it is yet 16:20:54 oh noes 16:21:07 agh what the new frame shares the same buffers 16:21:12 how the hell do you just get a new blank frame in emacs 16:21:15 don't say open it twice 16:21:59 i see. 16:24:13 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:26:35 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:31:14 -!- Mony has joined. 16:39:00 grumble haskell lacking basic things grumble 16:42:56 also: grumble at field names being unnamespaced functions 16:43:01 on records 16:45:52 It'd be nice if Haskell had global variables. 16:45:59 it does. 16:46:04 myVar = makeIORef 16:46:08 err 16:46:10 well, not quite 16:46:11 but w/e 16:46:12 IORefs. 16:47:12 Deewiant: what do you do when you want to have two records with fields named the same 16:47:12 >_< 16:47:57 You can't have "myVar <- makeIORef" as a statement in your program, and if you put it in main, then you can't refer to it outside of main. 16:48:21 I guess you could use those fancy implicit parameters. 16:48:56 Warrigal: why do you want a global variable? 16:49:00 you might as well just use an imperative language. 16:49:29 No, because Haskell has features that imperative langauges do not. 16:50:03 and they work because it's a functional language 16:50:07 Don't say "if you want A, you might as well do B" if B has problems that the alternative does not. 16:50:27 imperative+globvars has less probs than haskell+globvars. 16:54:41 -!- Mony has quit ("reboot"). 17:00:06 -!- cruce has joined. 17:07:26 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:07:55 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 17:08:06 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:10:12 -!- Linusz has quit ("Puzzi. Sì, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 17:18:43 -!- moozilla has joined. 17:19:28 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:19:28 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:21:13 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:26:11 Hm. I wonder if a nice esolang has appeared yet. :P 17:32:26 Subleq is a great esolang, but it's really annoying to code in. 17:32:37 it's not that great 17:32:42 maybe i'll write redivider in haskell 17:33:03 Redivider, that language that's actually Parsec. 17:33:51 It isn't Parsec. 17:33:57 Although you can parse it. With Parsec. 17:34:05 and yes, I know it's yours. 17:40:18 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 17:45:59 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:46:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:59:40 Warrigal: yo dawg, I herd u liek parsec so I used parsec to parse your actually-parsec so you can parse your parser 18:01:39 You da man. 18:05:15 Warrigal: what precedence do rediv ops have 18:05:34 ehird: you don't have two records with fields named the same :-P 18:05:43 Deewiant: why not :| 18:05:58 because the haskell record system is not very fancy, they're just functions 18:06:03 -!- moozilla has joined. 18:06:04 I know but it should be fancy 18:06:05 and what do you do when you want two functions named the same 18:06:12 Because it could be really useful. 18:06:15 It's not. 18:06:21 answer: either you don't, or you put them in separate modules and do qualified imports and whatnot 18:06:35 It is useful, it's not 'really useful' though, yes. 18:06:51 I think there've been some papers on the subject of improving it but nobody really knows what's the best idea 18:07:25 I should learn how to read and edit the GHC source and how to make a nice Haskell language extension, then make a patchset for nice records and get it widely used. 18:07:31 Wait no, I'd rather shoot myself in the face. 18:08:22 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:10:52 -!- Mony has joined. 18:11:25 I've tried for the past two months or so to get GHC to compile on Windows so I could hack on it (mostly the RTS and stuff to fix Windows-only bugs), but no luck 18:11:42 isn't it written in really old-style haskell? 18:11:52 iirc it has its own monad definition somewhere from before they were used for io and stuff 18:13:20 um ghc is written in ghc haskell 18:13:48 I'm not sure what you mean by "old-style" but AFAIK no 18:21:36 oerjan: yeah but 18:21:48 well someone in #haskell just said that the code was dated 18:21:48 :P 18:21:55 ages ago 18:26:04 well yeah, it's "dated" but I think "style" might be the wrong word here 18:26:18 one big thing is that it doesn't use hierarchical modules, it just prefixes everything 18:26:23 -!- Judofyr has joined. 18:26:29 so instead of Foo.Bar.baz you have FooBarbaz or even FBbaz if you're unlucky 18:26:43 (I'm not sure how bad it actually is, might not be that bad) 18:31:12 o 18:33:42 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:34:34 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:00:28 -!- moozilla has joined. 19:08:25 -!- jix has joined. 19:20:33 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:37:04 -!- moozilla has joined. 19:46:42 -!- Asztal has joined. 19:48:00 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:48:40 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:50:31 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:55:41 ehird: does the BNF give you operator precedence? 19:55:49 Dunno. :D 19:56:14 Yes, I think it does. 19:57:04 So use that. 20:11:56 -!- moozilla has joined. 20:30:12 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:30:29 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:30:52 -!- Judofyr has joined. 21:02:00 Abusing bugs for fun and quineity: 21:02:01 print inspect.getsource(lambda: None) 21:02:03 err 21:02:05 import inspect; print inspect.getsource(lambda: None) 21:20:02 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:38:07 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:48:43 +ul x 21:48:49 ^ul x 21:48:49 ...bad insn! 21:49:27 ^ul (:aSS):aSS...bad insn! 21:49:27 (:aSS):aSS ...bad insn! 21:49:36 erm 21:49:44 insn? 21:49:59 insemination, obviously 21:50:22 Insemination in the aSS? 21:51:21 +ul (::^)::^ 21:51:40 ...too much memory used! 21:51:58 21:50 Slereah_: Insemination in the aSS? 21:51:59 I lolled 21:52:21 oooooo 21:52:51 HEY 21:53:00 that's not the link to the logs! 21:53:34 brilliant, holmes 21:55:07 :| 21:57:08 ^bf ] 21:57:08 Mismatched []. 21:57:17 ^bf [ 21:57:18 Mismatched []. 21:57:20 darn 21:58:39 :::D 22:03:05 Don't you go inseminating my bot. 22:03:30 And that (:aSS):aSS... "bad insn" message comes when it tries to execute the '.' there. 22:05:46 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:10:54 -!- moozilla has joined. 22:29:12 fizzie: i'm pretty sure oerjan knows that, he made that bot. 22:29:25 just a figure of speech of course. 22:29:41 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 22:29:41 ! 22:29:44 :D 22:29:50 :D 22:29:54 are you happy 22:30:03 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 22:30:03 % 22:30:09 Happy like a frankenstein monster 22:30:21 ^bf++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 22:30:27 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 22:30:27 Ä 22:30:36 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 22:30:36 22:30:40 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 22:30:41 ô 22:30:45 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 22:30:46 ä 22:30:49 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 22:30:49 Ì 22:30:53 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 22:30:53 ± 22:30:57 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 22:30:57 Œ 22:31:01 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 22:31:01 \ 22:31:05 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 22:31:05 e 22:31:09 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 22:31:09 n 22:31:12 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 22:31:13 o 22:31:15 o 22:33:03 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:37:53 Prelude Data.List> take 5 $ iterate (++ "ko") "o" 22:37:53 ["o","oko","okoko","okokoko","okokokoko"] 22:38:50 ("ok" ++) is faster 22:41:35 I'm not sure I mind. 22:41:46 8| 22:42:20 let oko = "o":[o++"ko"|o <- oko] in take 5 $ oko looks sillier. 22:43:36 Maybe some sleep is in order; work-day tomorrow, even though the whole place will probably be completely empty. 22:43:46 why would it be empty 22:44:06 > let oko = "o" : map ("ok" ++) oko in oko 22:44:17 after it goes through infinite okos of the first oko, it okos the rest of the okos! 22:44:54 okokokokokokoko 22:45:13 oklopol: I think most people have started their winter vacationary stuff already, since wed-fri are holidays anyway. 22:45:34 hi 22:45:36 There might be some students, though; I think there's still some exams. 22:45:46 i wish i had exams 22:46:01 when do you get the presents in Finland? 22:46:09 Same as in Sweden? (24th) 22:46:10 24 22:46:14 ya 22:46:19 oklopol: You can do one of ours, I'm sure no-one would notice. 22:46:20 right 22:46:29 fizzie: what do you have? 22:46:44 25th here in uk/us 22:46:49 oklopol: Checking. 22:46:49 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:46:51 i mean i don't know *everything*. 22:47:34 AnMaster: whuzzup with you finnswedes and your xmas-on-24th 22:47:48 oh wait, xmas is on 25th but giftz are on 24th?? 22:47:50 rite? 22:47:51 or no 22:48:01 all the celebration stuff is 24 22:48:05 25 is just a day. 22:48:22 But 24th is still called "christmas eve", while 25th and 26th are the two christmas days. 22:48:24 kinda like 26 only it has a name 22:48:27 fizzie: tha 22:48:28 hmm 22:48:29 's weirdo. 22:48:34 26 is a christmas day too? 22:48:42 why would you celebrate onthe day before the event 22:49:09 ehird: who gives a boobie? 22:49:14 oklopol: I think I've heard it called "toinen joulupäivä" (lit. second christmas day). 22:49:20 oklopol: me 22:49:24 25th is so much more logical 22:49:32 fizzie: hmm sounds familiar indeed 22:49:45 oklopol: http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joulu agrees with me. 22:50:04 ehird: no it isn't, no one wants to celebrate during the day, so it's nicer to be celebrating when christmas day is at its darkest, just starting 22:50:20 meh 22:50:22 oklopol: Anyway, for the CS department the only monday exams are T-76.5613 "software testing and quality assurance" and T-106.4155 "operating systems". 22:50:28 christmas has too much buildup in the ok 22:50:30 uk 22:50:31 i mean 22:50:37 fizzie: well i just read modern operating systems 22:50:37 christmas shit starts being advertised 22:50:38 in OCTOBER 22:50:44 wtfs up with that 22:50:45 you don't happen to know what the book is? 22:51:42 oklopol: It's "William Stallings: Operating Systems: Internals and Design Principles". Wasn't Modern Operating Systems the Tanenbaum book? If so, that's the one they used for the old OS course. 22:52:02 i see. 22:52:18 our operating systems course prof is looking for another book now, guess i know what he'll choose then. 22:52:42 and yeah it's the tanenbaum book 22:52:52 tanenbaum argued with linus torvalds in like 1992 about linux 22:52:53 circus stuff in the frontcover 22:52:54 it was silly 22:52:56 yes 22:53:14 i am deliberately wording it like that so I sound cool 22:53:15 as in 22:53:20 because it sounds like I was there. 22:53:28 because linus didn't have a microkernel 22:53:34 ...yes linus 22:53:50 his kernel was mostly made out of guts 22:53:59 oklopol: I also know there's a statistics exam (or maybe just the second mid-term thing) tomorrow, if you like that more. 22:54:17 fizzie: i don't know anything about statistics 22:54:33 well at least i think i don't 22:55:03 Well, the operating systems sounds like your best bet, then. 22:55:07 ehird: weren't you there? 22:55:15 ummm 22:55:16 yes 22:55:30 despite not being alive 22:55:42 yeah, although i somehow feel MOS might have less content than OSIDP 22:55:50 i mean, have you read the book? 22:56:09 MOS, yes; OSIDP, no. 22:56:20 i mean, i love it, it's full of details and can suddenly burst into a list of a thousand algorithms 22:56:27 The (new) course probably won't be very in-depth, though. 22:56:49 but somehow it still seems to only scratch the surface 22:57:19 ("now, for no reason, let's go over how jpg's work!") 22:58:08 ("so now that we're discussing drivers, how about we take a look at how cd's work and talk a few pages about their history?") 22:58:19 hmm 22:58:29 well true, usually courses tend to get easier, not harder 23:01:08 and indeed, our prof is looking for a "less theoretical" book 23:01:11 i guess that means simpler 23:05:10 I'm pretty sure the Tanenbaum "LINUX is obsolete" newspost[1] was mentioned during the OS course, though. It's quite a classic. [1] http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.minix/msg/f447530d082cd95d 23:05:56 "I would suggest that people who want a **MODERN** "free" OS look around for a microkernel-based, portable OS, like maybe GNU or something like that." 23:06:11 our os course consists of reading the book and taking the exam 23:06:14 Haven't heard much news about Hurd lately. 23:06:44 fizzie: well, chinese democracy and python3 are out 23:06:47 anything is possible 23:06:58 oklopol: You mean there weren't any lectures? 23:07:10 fizzie: well there were 6 lectures 23:07:21 but i didn't attend them, and they were just an introduction 23:07:50 but yeah the first os course in our uni is just a book exam 23:07:54 or whatever's a good term 23:08:19 I think our course had at least one weekly lecture for a whole half-year term. Still, I think I mostly took the "read the book" approach. 23:08:20 http://superunprivileged.org/ "hurd advocacy page"; second line: rms' awful free software song 23:08:24 I think that says it all 23:10:48 We have an "operating system project" add-on course for those who are interested; they start with some skeleton code (used to be stripped-down nachos -- http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/tom/nachos/ -- but now is buenos -- http://www.niksula.hut.fi/~buenos/buenos.html ) and they have to implement the usual things like file systems, virtual memory and things like that. 23:10:49 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:11:26 i wish we had that 23:11:39 your uni is so much cooler 23:12:02 I'm just advertising; in reality it sucks. 23:12:18 But maybe not as much as it could. 23:12:24 everything sucks 23:12:26 but, i'm thinking maybe leaving abroad after ...my candidate? 23:12:27 what's it called 23:12:34 oklopol come to england! 23:12:43 i might graduate next year 23:12:47 we have 0 civil liberties and the weather sucks and it's boring 23:12:49 and we're all idiots 23:12:53 what more could you want 23:12:55 Bachelor's degree is the semi-equivalent term, I think. 23:13:07 I skipped the OS project, but I've heard comments that as far as university coursework goes, it was one of the more interesting ones. 23:13:24 well that's not very surprising imo 23:13:44 If you want no civil liberties and sucky weather, I don't think you really have to leave Finland. 23:13:47 they can't leave the fun stuff out because they'd have to leave everything out 23:14:05 what are civil liberties? 23:14:13 i have all the liberties i could wish for 23:14:14 civil liberties = freedom to do shit. 23:14:24 in the UK, everyone's a terrorist. 23:14:36 fizzie: uhh, isn't the finland like super-liberal compared to uk/us? 23:14:40 "the finland" xD 23:14:56 ehird: We're still working on getting rid of those, yes, but I'm sure they're catching up. 23:15:16 proto: #esoteric nation 23:15:21 nomics can come too. 23:17:16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_micronations is surprisingly long. 23:17:43 not really, everyone wants one of those, only natural a small percentage gets it 23:17:53 Some of the one-phrase descriptions are amusing. Like "BjornSocialist Republic": "A self-proclaimed Marxist state of about 6 square metres (7.18 sq yd) located on a stone "that looks like a tractor" in Lake Immeln, Scania, Sweden." 23:18:03 oklopol: But it's Wikipedia; all those are Notable(tm)! 23:18:13 ohh 23:20:15 there needs to be a really micro nation. just 15 micrometers across. 23:20:34 oerjan: 15 micrometers of my table declare independence from the england 23:20:36 done 23:20:48 the england? 23:20:49 "the england" 23:20:51 wtf is up with me 23:20:52 first the finland 23:20:53 now the england 23:21:00 soon accidentally the whole world 23:21:01 The one and only England. 23:21:08 oklopol: lol 23:23:02 Speaking of nations, I am amused by the shape of the Finland/Sweden border at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Märket 23:23:25 lol 23:27:05 i am amused by bjarne not even trying to explain the things that suck about c++ 23:27:35 he just says "unfortunately c++ does this", and puts a sad face after the sentence ":(" 23:27:40 lol 23:29:22 Java VM uses two slots of the .class file constant table for long/double (read: 8-byte) values; and they've bothered to add a footnote about that in the specification: "In retrospect, making 8-byte constants take two constant pool entries was a poor choice." 23:29:48 They really should've added a ":(" after that one. 23:31:26 i don't understand 23:31:39 23:31 oklopol: i don't understand 23:31:41 Cherish this moment. 23:31:47 :D 23:31:57 hey i can be pretty slow 23:33:04 i'm assuming the constant table is just some kinda big array 23:33:28 Yes, but it already has entries of variable sizes; like strings and things like that. 23:33:39 ah 23:34:07 I guess it's a bit confusing when two specific entry types (for no particularly good reason) suddenly take up two slots in the table. 23:35:33 yeah 23:36:23 bjarne does advertise this other book about the process of making c++ 23:36:34 perhaps he'd explain the weird stuff there 23:37:32 Or maybe he just says "It's like this because I screwed up here. ;/ :( X-D" 23:38:04 "Lol, I fuxxored up this part of the threading. sry :((" 23:38:38 threading doesn't have much room in a book about c++ 23:40:08 south park time -> 23:49:48 -!- moozilla has joined. 23:50:47 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 23:52:42 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 23:53:21 oklopol: I think I've heard it called "toinen joulupäivä" (lit. second christmas day). 23:53:24 err yea 23:53:28 annandag jul 23:53:32 in Swedish 23:53:40 old word form and such 23:53:50 "secondday xmas" basically 23:53:55 which sounds silly in Swedish too 23:54:06 common name for it though 2008-12-22: 00:00:24 The more common term in Finland is "Tapaninpäivä". 00:00:38 "Tapani's day", where Tapani is an old-fashioned Finnish name. 00:00:42 hm ok 00:01:32 fizzie, we also have something even more silly for the days just before "dan för doppardan", "dan före dan före doppardan" (up to 3 iterations is used seriously) 00:01:46 due to certain culinary traditions 00:01:54 "dopp i grytan" 00:02:07 * AnMaster don't like dopp i grytan at all 00:02:11 doesn't* 00:03:33 ohh tapaninpäivä 00:03:37 yeah okay i know that 00:04:43 Apparently 26th is also "St Stephen's Day" elsewhere. 00:05:15 stephen ~ tapani? that's a bit of a stretch 00:05:39 Stephanos, from the original Greek name. 00:06:05 I wouldn't be too surprised if that is the official etymology for Tapani. 00:06:19 i wouldn't either 00:06:38 o oko okoko oko o 00:07:05 s/^st/t/ is what we do, and so on. 00:07:09 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Tapani 00:07:50 Oh, Boxing Day; now that's the term I've actually heard. 00:08:52 apparently Boxing Day sometimes moves 00:09:02 Very messy, these Christmas-time holidays; Eastern Orthodox people have their Saint Stephen's Day on the 27th. 00:09:09 There should be an ISO standard or something. 00:09:31 Now I'll actually sleep and not just talk about it. 00:12:02 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:29:37 -!- moozilla has joined. 00:45:16 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:52:18 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 00:53:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("ZZZZXXXX"). 00:58:34 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 01:06:20 -!- lifthras1ir has joined. 01:06:20 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:07:09 -!- lifthras1ir has changed nick to lifthrasiir. 01:07:29 -!- moozilla has joined. 01:16:05 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 01:16:11 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 01:31:14 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:43:15 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:03:37 -!- comex has changed nick to Warr. 02:43:05 -!- Judofyr has quit. 02:51:33 i want a scroll wheel with inertia 02:53:12 virtual or phyzical 03:01:51 Inertia is a property of matter. 03:02:14 So only simulated inertia would be anything notable. 03:02:25 So the real question is this: virtual or physical? 03:12:08 ...io is so messed up. 03:12:17 specifically operator presidence 03:17:21 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:17:29 Did something happen here that involves me? 03:18:00 yes. 03:18:10 No. 03:18:27 Something happened here that involves the thing I mentioned in #inanity. 03:19:24 Which is relevent to me because I'm misspelling things? 03:19:54 ...physical 03:20:11 * Sgeo goes back to watching QI 03:20:42 Not really. 03:25:29 <3 QI 03:29:10 Warrigal: you know... I don't think there's any other word to describe the action of pandiculating 03:31:07 pandiculating? 03:33:31 anyone up for some serious language design? 03:33:33 I think "stretching" is similar. 03:33:39 Programming language, you mean? 03:33:51 it's the weird floppy gestures one makes when stretching and yawning 03:34:20 Well, I suppose we could design other types of languages as well. Let's design esperanto... oh wait. 03:35:56 Anyone have a bit of IRC bot code I could steal and manipulate to my own liking? 03:36:06 "Esperanto has already been designed." 03:36:22 Use Lambdabot. 03:36:52 I have a feeling I'll mess up trying to use Haskell successfully 03:37:27 Oh. 03:37:57 though the features lambdabot has are impressive. 03:38:49 I kind of want to make a text-based MMO through IRC using a bot. 03:39:21 send commands as PMs and it gives you output. 03:41:10 <3QI 03:41:13 QIQIQI 03:41:36 wat? 03:42:23 Sgeo loves QI. 03:42:31 I wonder what QI is. 03:46:18 Quite Interesting 03:48:29 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:49:35 I'd really prefer an IRC bot in Perl or Python or something. 04:09:32 * Warrigal ponders IRC bots written in Python 04:09:41 you mean likt BASMENT BOT?!?! 04:09:56 bsmntbombdood, tell me when bsmnt_bot is the kind of thing you can download and then run. 04:10:21 when you write the code 04:10:33 because i've certainly lost interest 04:11:38 Okay. 04:12:09 I think I'll try to find a "suitable" Lisp-like programming language instead. 04:13:04 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:14:27 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 04:14:33 We need to make an esolang where |:-{) erases the hard drive 04:30:21 -!- Warr has changed nick to comex. 04:47:30 -!- lolbot has joined. 04:47:41 :D 04:47:47 .py 04:48:33 -!- lolbot has quit (Client Quit). 04:48:43 wooo 04:48:45 progress 04:49:00 -!- lolbot has joined. 04:50:44 -!- lolbot has quit (Client Quit). 04:51:05 -!- lolbot has joined. 05:05:51 -!- lolbot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:06:07 -!- lolbot has joined. 05:06:11 lol 05:08:39 lol 05:08:46 -!- Warrigal has left (?). 05:14:06 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 05:14:39 -!- lolbot has quit. 05:14:44 -!- GregorR has joined. 05:14:53 -!- lolbot has joined. 05:14:54 GregorR: word 05:15:08 Uhhh, I'm gonna go with "purple" 05:19:29 -!- lolbot has quit (Client Quit). 05:19:45 -!- lolbot has joined. 05:22:54 -!- lolbot has quit (Client Quit). 05:23:13 -!- lolbot has joined. 05:23:34 .fortune 05:23:34 Fine day to work off excess energy. Steal something heavy. 05:24:07 .py print "lol" 05:24:07 lol 05:24:14 .io "test" println 05:24:26 -gasp- 05:25:44 -!- lolbot has quit (Client Quit). 05:25:59 -!- lolbot has joined. 05:26:27 eh... oh well 05:29:11 -!- lolbot has quit (Client Quit). 05:29:31 -!- lolbot has joined. 05:30:44 -!- lolbot has quit (Client Quit). 05:30:59 -!- lolbot has joined. 05:34:05 -!- lolbot has quit (Client Quit). 05:34:19 -!- lolbot has joined. 05:34:46 i haven't coded for alike a year 05:35:21 losin it 05:38:37 -!- lolbot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:48:38 bsmntbombdood: :(( 05:48:40 -!- lolbot has joined. 05:48:40 why not? 05:48:43 .fortune 05:48:43 Political speeches are like steer horns. A point here, a point there, 05:48:46 depresshuns 05:49:00 .fortune 05:49:00 To downgrade the human mind is bad theology. 05:49:12 ...fortune is so addictive. 05:50:19 .fortune 05:50:20 I don't even butter my bread. I consider that cooking. 05:52:24 -!- lolbot has quit (Client Quit). 05:52:36 -!- lolbot has joined. 05:52:38 .fortune 05:52:39 All heiresses are beautiful. -- John Dryden 05:52:45 There we go 05:53:23 It was only reading the first line (which was probably a good thing - one man's feature is another man's bug) 05:58:46 :( 05:59:09 bsmntbombdood: here's a fortune to cheer you up 05:59:11 .fortune 05:59:12 Oh, that sound of male ego. You travel halfway across the galaxy and it's still the same song. -- Eve McHuron, "Mudd's Women", stardate 1330.1 05:59:32 omg sexist 05:59:59 perhaps another? 06:00:01 .fortune 06:00:01 YOW!! The land of the rising SONY!! 06:00:23 ........has anyone noticed that 50% of fortune outputs are nonsense? 06:00:24 g'night all 06:00:29 night 06:09:41 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 06:09:42 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:30:22 -!- lolbot has quit. 06:30:42 -!- lolbot has joined. 06:46:49 -!- lolbot has quit. 06:47:03 -!- lolbot has joined. 07:10:32 lolbot: en jp "The cake is a lie"? 07:10:32 CakeProphet: The en to jp translation failed, sorry! 07:10:44 lolbot: en ne "The cake is a lie"? 07:10:44 CakeProphet: The en to ne translation failed, sorry! 07:10:58 lolbot: en de "The cake is a lie"? 07:10:59 CakeProphet: "Der Kuchen ist eine Lüge" (en to de, translate.google.com) 07:11:01 ... 07:52:00 augurbot: en jp "the cake is a lie"? 07:52:08 augur: "keki wa uso da" (en to de, augurbot) 07:52:40 oh. i keep forgetting i dont use augur as my nick here 07:52:40 :( 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:55:16 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 09:57:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:10:15 -!- lolbot has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:15:28 -!- cruce has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:19:40 -!- Mony has joined. 11:21:41 plap 11:22:51 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:34:31 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:36:39 "The product is GPLed, minor drawback, but at least its not completely proprieatary." 12:36:46 I love subversive licenseflames. 12:44:50 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 12:48:36 .. what? 12:49:06 I don't have to make sense. 12:49:09 It's not required of me. 12:49:22 ... or IS IT 13:05:11 To quote one of those ubiquitous motivational posters: http://zem.fi/~fis/sense.jpg 13:05:50 http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1934/s5001329rv5.jpg 13:05:54 HAVE MORE SENSE 13:07:02 -!- Judofyr has quit. 13:28:42 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:37:52 -!- Badger has joined. 13:40:58 -!- oerjan has quit ("Sensubus"). 14:39:26 http://rafb.net/p/H0jqak48.html 14:53:31 oklopol! 14:53:31 14:53 ehird: > fix (("o" :) . map ("ok" ++)) 14:53:32 14:53 lambdabot: ["o","oko","okoko","okokoko","okokokoko","okokokokoko","okokokokokoko","oko... 15:08:56 -!- Mony has quit ("reboot"). 15:15:49 -!- cruce has joined. 15:26:48 ehird: yyyes? 15:26:56 14:53 ehird: 14:53 ehird: > fix (("o" :) . map ("ok" ++)) 15:26:56 14:53 ehird: 14:53 lambdabot: ["o","oko","okoko","okokoko","okokokoko","okokokokoko","okokokokokoko","oko... 15:27:06 i also generalized that into "wat" 15:27:15 wat f g = fix (f . map g) 15:27:29 whose type is: ([b] -> [a]) -> (a -> b) -> [a] 15:27:33 it comes out of nowhere 15:27:34 :D 15:28:47 that does seem a bit curious 15:29:00 it is 15:29:10 oko = wat ("o":) ("ok"++) 15:32:07 yay i has 6 liters of energy drinkings 15:33:36 and smartdrugs? 15:33:41 anyway infinite sequences are pretty weird. they still often look like magic to me 15:34:15 like that one, it's fixing an "ok" prefix to... err.. nothing. 15:34:46 cruce: what are smartdrugs 15:35:08 Gary Gum 15:36:24 Hi cruce. 15:37:05 oklopol: It's putting "ok" in front of all elements of the full expression, then adding "o" to the front. 15:37:08 :DDDD 15:37:49 it would be a whole lot less confusing if i didn't understand it 15:37:58 lol 15:38:55 i do understand what it means, and how lazy evaluation automatically makes it work, but it's still magic 15:39:46 oklopol: it's actually "o" : ("ok" ++ ("o" : ("ok" .. 15:39:50 which makes it simple to understand 15:39:56 err 15:39:57 it's 15:40:07 "o" : (map ("ok" ++) ("o" : (map ("ok" ++) ... 15:40:19 The one I used -- let oko = "o":[o++"ko"|o <- oko] in oko -- also sounds silly when read out in English. "oko is the list that starts with an "o", then contains all elements of oko with "ko" added to the end." 15:40:22 it's simple to understand as a fixed point too 15:40:38 fizzie: yes 15:41:27 that's not the point, it's just so highlevel and awesome that it makes me lick my elbows. 15:41:47 haskell's great 15:41:55 You can lick your elbows? I've never managed that. 15:42:36 you must be a noob :o 15:42:44 Maybe one side of an elbow. 15:42:51 I'm not sure which region counts. 15:43:13 * oklopol just hurt his arm by stretching it too much :< 15:43:50 it should be illegal to talk about that kind of stuff 15:44:01 too dangerous 15:45:59 rwh and sicp on the way from amazon 15:46:14 soon i have all the classics 15:46:22 all that's left is the actual reading, but that's trivial 15:46:30 oklopol: rwh is not a classic 15:46:31 it's recent 15:46:32 sicp is only 3.5/5 on amazon 15:46:38 ehird: yes i wasn't referring to that 15:46:41 sicp and aocp 15:46:53 That's usually TAOCP, for some reason. 15:47:02 tao child porn 15:47:10 the art of child porn 15:47:28 yes 15:48:03 i would so buy that 15:48:03 knuth is a filthy kiddie-fiddler 15:48:11 this is the fbi 15:48:38 so what's the deal with taocps after the first three? 15:48:49 is number four divided in chapters that are separate books or something? 15:48:57 I think TAOCP and SICP are the most classic-y of the books I have, too. And maybe the Schneier's "cryptography classics" set: applied cryptography, secrets and lies, and practical cryptography. 15:49:05 i was too lazy to look into it, but looked like there were many fours 15:49:11 oklopol: #4 is not done yet 15:49:16 knuth keeps releasing little niblets of it 15:49:21 yeah 15:49:30 it will be a ufll one when its down 15:49:30 but they are like 1500 pages each 15:49:30 done 15:49:31 full 15:49:37 oklopol: knuth is crazy-fuck 15:49:51 yes :) 15:50:02 ah, wait 15:50:09 it's split into 4 parts 15:50:09 a-d 15:50:12 Volume 4 will be in separate books when it's ready, yes. 15:50:16 5 Outline of Volume 4A Enumeration and Backtracking 15:50:17 6 Outline of Volume 4B Graph and Network Algorithms 15:50:18 7 Outline of Volumes 4C and 4D Optimization and Recursion 15:50:34 I like how it takes 8 books to get to recursion 15:50:37 :D 15:50:49 umm. 15:50:54 Hopefully Knuth won't do the dying thing before it's ready; I think authors have that sort of habits. 15:50:56 the four i saw was about bit-fiddling 15:51:09 fizzie: he's pretty old. 15:51:14 yeah and also isn't he planning stuff even after 4? 15:51:19 7.1.3 - Bitwise tricks and techniques (122 pp) -- is in 4A 15:51:25 ah okay. 15:51:55 for some reason that's what amazon.com suggested to me, or at least i saw that somewhere 15:52:00 he wants like 20 volumes 15:52:16 hehe 15:52:20 The MMIX rewrites of 1-3 is also still forthcoming, I guess. 15:52:42 first a book, then a book for each chapter, then multiple books for one chapter, chapter 20 will probably be a whole library 15:52:50 I guess I need to move work -> home now; be back in half an hour or so. 15:52:57 "miscellaneous algorithms" 15:53:12 bye 15:53:24 mmix rewrites? 15:53:26 hmm. 15:54:23 ah the current one is mic 15:54:24 *mix 15:56:26 -!- Mony has joined. 16:11:37 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 16:33:26 Hi ais523 16:33:44 Hi ehird, with a capital H! 16:33:49 Ehird? 16:34:53 that would be eHird, presumably 16:34:58 err, duh 16:34:58 XD 16:36:22 ehird is dum 16:37:27 16:37 Error(405): #ESO You can't join that many channels 16:37:29 Oh my. 16:38:42 wow, you're in a lot of channels... 16:39:55 * ehird bumps up the font size on his terminal and his eyes thank him 16:40:52 IRC too. 16:41:36 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:43:27 i was in 20 channels on freenode and quakenet, but i recently culled almost all of them, because vista couldn't handle that many windows :-) 17:13:59 hi ais523 17:14:03 hi 17:14:32 AnMaster: I got gcc-bf working to the extent that it can compile some very simple programs 17:14:38 although I haven't worked up to hello world yet 17:14:43 I have to largely avoid the standard library still 17:15:56 ais523, when I worked on adding NCRS support for cfunge I found that it interacts badly with TERM (thus I haven't pushed the changes yet, since I'm working on adding stuff to co-ordinate init/teardown between those fingerprints), however maybe for IFFI you should add a note somewhere that if someone links a C program as well they should be careful if they plan to use ncurses 17:16:15 maybe I'll let them figure that out for themself 17:16:24 ick doesn't exactly count as stable 17:17:17 ais523, if stuff mess up with ncurses it will probably lead to memory corruption and/or segfault either on exit (some cleanup is done with atexit() in TERM) or at any other random point 17:17:41 oh, it's almost certainly possible to get ick to segfault, although I don't know a specific program that does so 17:19:25 mhm 17:50:31 #reddit is a shit channel. 17:50:31 17:49 lol can u copy shit to a cd in dos lol? 17:50:42 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:50:44 it's an interesting question, actually 17:50:53 I don't know if there's any CD-writing software for DOS 17:50:59 given the existence of FreeDOS, I guess so 17:51:10 (there's definitely MSCDEX, and probably other programs, to /read/ CDs in DOS0 17:51:14 s/0$/)/ 17:53:14 -!- ehird has set topic: lol can u copy shit to a cd in dos lol?. 17:53:21 (don't put the log link in there, it wasn't a few seconds ago) 18:07:37 afk, not feeling well, think I have a cold 18:13:49 ehird: lol lol? 18:13:57 lol lol lol 18:14:03 hi Badger. 18:14:05 you new here? 18:16:57 I suspect so 18:18:54 welcome, then 18:18:58 what brings you here? 18:19:11 he's in #haskell 18:19:16 I mentioned #esoteric sometime today I think 18:19:19 hmm... ah, maybe 18:19:23 but Haskell isn't an esolang 18:19:31 arguable 18:19:37 I mean I mentioned #esoteric in #haskell 18:19:39 well, it has the good bits of esoness, but not the bad bits 18:21:59 oh dear. 18:22:13 * Badger is forced to look up esotericism. 18:22:35 heh 18:22:36 esoteric: confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle; "a compilation of esoteric philosophical theories" 18:22:48 look up esoteric programming 18:22:57 Badger: so, uh, what brought you hear? :P 18:22:59 *here 18:23:01 ehird: you 18:23:06 neat. :D 18:23:14 (We're purveyors of silly programming languages.) 18:23:20 (http://esolangs.org/wiki/) 18:23:21 well, probably it's worth giving a link to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 18:23:21 ehird brings everyone here 18:23:29 mostly because you mentioned brainfuck 18:23:32 oklopol: I brought AnMaster her forchrissakes 18:23:33 and ends up ignoring them when they become regulars 18:23:33 so you can see what sort of things we do 18:23:35 and Deewiant 18:23:37 *here 18:23:37 which I am horrifiedly amued by 18:23:40 *amused 18:23:41 brainfuck is one of the best-known esolangs 18:23:52 ^bf ,[.,]!Hello, world! 18:23:52 Hello, world! 18:23:58 the fact that it works is, er 18:24:01 well 18:24:03 * Badger shudders. 18:24:03 I kicked fizzie back into talking. 18:24:08 it's pretty amazing what can be Turing-complete 18:24:09 Badger: fungot is written in befunge 18:24:09 ehird: an overdue payment order is defined in this 18:24:12 and interprets brainfuck. 18:24:19 http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 18:24:19 ehird: property should the proposer shall receive a commission. at the 18:24:24 wait, is fungot spouting random stuff from Agora again? 18:24:25 ais523: other rules which would permit otherwise. 18:24:27 ais523: yeah 18:24:30 ^style 18:24:30 Available: agora* alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 18:25:00 ehird: wanna hear something weird? 18:25:15 hah @ wikipedia: 18:25:16 Internet community 18:25:16 There is a small but thriving community on the Internet of hobbyists who program in and design esoteric programming languages. 18:25:27 well, you found us 18:25:28 we're one of those communities 18:25:40 * oklopol assumes there are others without intersection 18:25:56 oh my 18:25:58 lolcode. 18:26:27 we officially hate lolcode 18:26:47 Whitespace only considers the layout of whitespace and ignores all non-whitespace characters. 18:26:51 Genius. 18:27:21 heh, yes. but it's not that hard to come up with interesting syntax-based esolangs 18:27:28 it's much harder to get interesting semantics 18:27:29 I think most of the people here hate lolcode, it doesn't bring anything interesting to the world of programming except the syntax 18:27:41 oklopol: agreed 18:28:08 i usually try to have pretty much everything unique and new in my languages 18:28:09 I blame my recent talking spree on fungot, actually. 18:28:09 fizzie: a contest must have a vizier and the procedure is not 18:28:28 this is one of the rare places where reinventing a weird wheel is okay 18:28:43 are all these languages t-complete 18:28:52 Badger: not all of them, but most are i think 18:29:02 ais523 has some interesting non-tc ones 18:30:00 anyway, to continue after "in my languages", that's why i've officially finished like 3 languages 18:30:11 I should keep going with Unassignable 18:30:18 oklopol: what're they called? 18:30:21 get it even higher-level and more usable despite blatantly non-TC 18:30:28 Badger: oklotalk-- and i forget the rest 18:30:31 atm he's working on noprob 18:30:34 Badger: i'm a bit afraid of wikis, you can't really find them. 18:30:35 http://esolangs.org/wiki/BackFlip is the interesting non-TC one of mine, though 18:30:48 oklotalk-- is ready, nopol2 is ready, and graphica is ready 18:31:13 all have an implementation too, none are officially free, and none are even public, you'd have to ask me directly 18:31:41 ah 18:32:05 graphica is a language for creating graphs in a fairly weird way 18:32:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespeare_(programming_language)#Example_code 18:32:48 :) 18:33:11 oklotalk-- isn't all that interesting, it's a subset of oklotalk, which is a pretty massive language i'm still extending 18:33:24 nopol2 is... weird. 18:33:26 massive, you say 18:33:33 how so? 18:33:45 it has a lot of stuff, because i've been working on it for years 18:33:48 Badger: it's more consice than APL often 18:33:52 and is completely obscure 18:34:36 oklopol: hmm... my pretty massive language Overload became Underload when it was trimmed down to a tarpit 18:34:42 and that's probably my most successful esolang of all 18:35:20 every string is a legal program, pretty concise, scoping is very flexible, everything is dynamic, you can change syntax quite easily, etc, all this in a setting about as safe for the programmer as programming in c macros 18:36:24 fun details, features even ehird probably doesn't know: you can do { raw N -> out N } (5+7) to print "5 + 7" 18:36:40 ha 18:36:46 lazy evaluation where there are no side-effects 18:36:49 oklopol: how hard is it to change that to output in reverse-Polish? 18:36:50 which is dynamically checked :) 18:37:01 oklopol: you should generalize it so that all functions get expressions 18:37:04 ais523: parsing is done from within the language using state lists 18:37:05 and they evaluate by default 18:37:06 that is 18:37:09 which are kinda like regexes. 18:37:10 { N -> out N } (1+1) 18:37:12 outputs 2 18:37:12 but 18:37:17 { N -> out (code N) } (1+1) 18:37:22 outputs 1+1 18:37:22 well 18:37:24 s/code/ast/ 18:37:32 but they are more general, and can also be used for flow control, in a manner that has nothing to do with regexes 18:37:42 basically you can use the fsm directly 18:37:42 oklopol: that basically works in that all primitives evaluate their expressions 18:37:43 apart from code 18:37:46 and a few others 18:37:57 and arguments are passed as their context and their AST 18:38:07 then you can do e.g. 18:38:13 if true, 1, 2 18:38:14 as a regular function 18:38:15 :D 18:38:23 where the latter two are only evaluated if the first 18:38:24 ehird: that's essentially what happens 18:38:45 i'm gonna write a language like that 18:38:47 you could do insane shit 18:38:48 like 18:38:52 a code object is almost a normal object except given the message #raw it returns its code. 18:38:56 you could write set("name",value) 18:39:04 because you'd get the context of name and value 18:39:05 everything that doesn't have a side-effect is simply a code object 18:39:09 you could also write 18:39:21 appendcode("name",2+2) 18:39:30 and it'd append "2+2" to the string in name 18:39:31 if is a regular function, you are just reinventing oklotalk here :P 18:39:32 XD 18:39:47 hmm 18:40:31 you'd write it like 18:40:38 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 18:41:04 { Name ValExpr -> vars(context(ValExpr))[Name] += tostring(ast(ValExpr)) } 18:41:07 or w/e 18:41:11 { N -> out (code N) } (1+1) <<< would be { N -> out (#code N) } (1+1) in oklotalk 18:41:21 # is used for "reserved" atoms 18:41:57 what about 18:41:59 { Name ValExpr -> vars(context(ValExpr))[Name] += tostring(ast(ValExpr)) } 18:42:01 where you can do 18:42:11 bar="hello";foo("bar",2+2);out(bar) 18:42:12 and it prints 18:42:15 hello2 + 2 18:42:19 meaning if you make, for instance, a pointer object, you can have #set and #get for changing what's pointed to, and just pipe all other params to the object pointed 18:42:31 (wrapping like this is quite central to oklotalk) 18:42:35 hmm 18:42:58 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list 18:43:00 good grief. 18:43:07 Badger: :) 18:43:39 * Badger wonders how many are usable in the way that non-esoteric ones are. 18:43:46 At least, without taking several hours about it. 18:43:54 well fizzie coded fungot in a few hours 18:43:55 oklopol: the recordkeepor of the courts. a rule assigns any duties or powers. this rule 18:44:02 (no need to correct me if i'm wrong) 18:44:24 I mean 18:44:36 without the programmer needing to take several hours about it. :P 18:45:08 none :D 18:45:18 ah. 18:45:30 now that is impressive 18:46:16 well assuming it was fizzie's first irc bot in befunge, i'd say it didn't take that long 18:46:29 i've made esolang programs in less time than a few hours 18:46:37 for instance ski in nopol took about 2 minutes 18:47:44 oklopol: i thought of a ridiculous way to do that language 18:47:52 write eval() so that it takes an expression 18:47:55 and evaluates its ast 18:48:13 as in 18:48:13 ooooooooo 18:48:15 write eval in that language 18:48:24 then make all the primitives use eval 18:48:30 apart from ast/context 18:48:30 etc 18:48:44 then, translate eval into $impl_lang code 18:48:49 and make it so you can modify eval 18:48:56 and it evals eval with the previous eval 18:48:59 to then eval with the current one 18:49:02 => you can replace eval 18:50:17 you mean liek bootstrapping 18:50:26 i'm not sure i'm following you. 18:50:30 too many evals 18:50:32 oklopol: essentially except not 18:50:34 basically 18:50:37 write eval so it does like 18:50:44 ehird: stop inventing Feather 18:50:47 ais523: it's not 18:50:49 it's differen 18:50:49 t 18:50:54 well, it is different 18:51:00 eval = { Expr -> Code = ast(Expr); ... } 18:51:03 oklopol: so you can do like 18:51:04 your method doesn't let you retroactively change what eval was at the start of the program 18:51:05 eval(2+2) 18:51:09 and it behaves identical to 18:51:10 id(2+2) 18:51:11 and then 18:51:13 write the primitives in that lang 18:51:15 that use eval() 18:51:19 to force-evaluation-by-default 18:51:28 then just do some bootstrapping with eval 18:51:38 and you get configurable-evaluation-forced-by-default and eval acting like the identity function XD 18:53:09 heh. still not following :D 18:53:34 should probably start coding now 18:53:38 oklopol: noooooo 18:53:41 its easy to follow 18:53:41 :{ 18:53:42 :DDDDDDD 18:53:45 yeah probably. 18:53:47 FOLLOW IT 18:54:12 so. 18:54:16 eval is id 18:54:20 so program evaluation is id 18:54:21 not 18:54:23 no 18:54:23 nothing happens 18:54:29 okay. 18:54:31 :D 18:54:33 oklopol: but 18:54:36 from a user's point of view 18:54:37 in a REPL: 18:54:42 > eval(2+2) 18:54:42 4 18:54:47 > id(2+2) 18:54:47 4 18:54:55 id is just { X -> X } 18:54:56 but eval is 18:55:06 { Expr -> Code = ast(Expr); DO EVALUATION OF AST HERE } 18:55:14 ehird: is eval declared HoldFirst? 18:55:20 and all the primitives use eval, so that it acts like a regular language by default 18:55:23 but since you can then replace eval 18:55:28 so the idea is primitives can be given other ways to evaluate their parameters 18:55:28 the by-default evaluation can be configured 18:55:31 and eval acts like id 18:55:31 :D 18:55:33 oklopol: not just primitives 18:55:35 every function 18:55:37 ok, I deserve the swatter for that 18:55:39 sigh this is trivial 18:55:44 yeah that's trivial then 18:55:45 oklopol: you should be able to understand it :( 18:55:51 but it's neat 18:55:59 i understand the idea, i didn't understand your explanation 18:56:07 i'm bad with IO, i'm only good with the processing. 18:56:26 and yeah that's oklotalk's idea 18:56:31 making stuff like that trivial to do 18:56:46 kinda like lisp only much, much hackier 18:57:26 -!- GregorR has joined. 18:57:32 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:57:46 oklopol: yeah but 18:57:47 mine isn't a hack 18:57:49 it bakes it right in 18:57:50 :DD 18:58:23 sure 19:00:22 in oklotalk you'd make some kinda wrapper, cooleval = { ast Expr -> '.Expr('\:Expr) }; 19:00:28 err. wait 19:00:44 ...no 19:00:49 thats not what i mean 19:00:51 in oklotalk you'd make some kinda wrapper, cooleval = { Evaler -> { ast Expr -> evalerExpr( Evaler\:Expr ) } }; 19:01:37 one more attempt, cooleval = { Evaler -> { ast Expr -> (evaler Expr)( Evaler\:Expr ) } }; 19:01:45 nop 19:01:45 e 19:02:05 yeah still one more error but it's readable 19:02:22 err no that's completely wrong 19:02:48 "'"'s are kinda essential so you recurse to the bottom 19:03:04 haven't written oklotalk in ages 19:05:16 cooleval = { Evaler -> { ast Expr -> (`(' Evaler) .Expr)( (' Evaler) \: Expr ) } }; <<< take evaluator and an ast, recursively evaluate the head, and call it with the rest, of course still needs something for actual nodes, but really i was just trying to demonstrate the idea 19:05:27 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 19:05:28 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:05:45 oklopol: noo othats not what it issss 19:05:55 really just that the ast can be read from the expression 19:06:00 ehird: okay. what's the difference 19:06:18 its totally different 19:06:23 youre just writin gan evaluator that takes an expression 19:06:24 big deal 19:06:37 well you can just call that with your program 19:06:41 no no no 19:06:44 totally not the point 19:06:45 at all 19:07:05 well tell me what the difference is 19:07:12 what can yours do mine can't 19:08:02 its just 19:08:02 nothing 19:08:04 to do with it 19:08:05 at all 19:08:10 its a totally different concept 19:08:11 entirely 19:08:14 i see, i see 19:08:16 you're rambling about somethign entirely irrelevant 19:08:49 well okay, then i didn't understand what you mean, i thought you just meant you can make the evaluation function yourself 19:09:22 oklopol: no 19:09:28 I mean the actual eval that is used 19:09:34 is both written in itself, and takes an expression 19:09:37 and since it takes an expression 19:09:42 and is used as the actual evaluator 19:09:49 eval(EXPRESSION) and id(EXPRESSION) 19:09:53 will always return the same thing 19:09:54 which is funny 19:10:01 also 19:10:05 the fact taht the evaluating-primitives 19:10:09 rer that is 19:10:12 the primitives that use eval() 19:10:14 are written in the lang itself 19:10:17 by virtue of eval being 19:11:06 HELP! I'm bored! 19:11:09 i say it's the same thing, you're just looking from a different angle. 19:11:09 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 19:11:27 eval() and id() will return the same thing in mine too. 19:11:35 yes but 19:11:38 thats not the actual thing 19:11:41 thats just a side-effect 19:11:44 if you make eval be (' Evaler) 19:11:51 whatever, you're talking to a behaviorist. 19:11:53 "X is the same as Y because X shares a side effect with Y" 19:11:55 ^ stupid 19:12:51 if X talks like a duck, then it's the same as Y. 19:13:10 we've had this conversation many times before. 19:13:24 we simply see the world differently 19:14:17 oklopol: your programming language is the same as C++ 19:14:22 because they can both calculate things 19:14:36 very different 19:16:10 oklopol: o rly 19:16:13 a language is usually a function from strings to semantics. 19:16:27 s/your programming language is/our ideas are/ 19:16:34 s/C++/each other/ 19:16:43 s/calculate things/make an evaluator take an expression/ 19:16:53 s/.*// 19:17:04 sometimes, for instance when you're talking about tcness or thinking about how to model a system in programming, you may think of a language as a function from ideas to semantics 19:17:13 and in these situations i do consider c++ just another language 19:17:24 Deep. 19:17:44 not really, just seemed like you didn't know that 19:18:31 that was sarcasm 19:19:06 i know 19:19:46 but anyway, this is pointless, you don't have the ability to understand other people's points of view, so you'll just mock me until i get mad. 19:20:33 you haven't actually shown what yours can do and mine can't; i can easily show what haskell can do and c++ can't 19:21:27 and i'm not saying they are the same thing, i'm just saying that's how oklotalk would make something that works exactly like yours 19:21:30 which you didn't contradict 19:21:31 oklopol: it's like 19:21:38 "Hey oklopol, a giraffe! *explains giraffes*" 19:21:48 "ok, you can do that in my universe too, *shows a frog*" 19:21:55 "But that has nothing in common except it's an animal" 19:22:02 "What can your giraffe do that my frog can't eh??????" 19:22:11 you're an idiot 19:22:15 thx 19:22:23 ^ see i got made 19:22:26 ...yes, made 19:23:04 anyway, you're just mocking me, this is pointless, i'm off to do some coding, if i can escape all this supressed rage -> 19:23:22 :D 19:23:25 :D 19:23:52 (i probably can't, hope you're the stronger one and just shut up at some point.) 19:25:48 and yay. the documentation for the course project is gone. \o/ 19:26:05 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:26:15 well maybe i'll just read the five million lines of boring java ui code. that's fun to read right? 19:27:45 nah, impossible. i should really stop talking to you. 19:28:48 5 million lines of Java? 19:29:13 some ui code the we were given because the course is not about ui's 19:29:58 so it wasn't really 5 million lines, more like a few hundred 19:31:06 that would be one helluva course, "read these five million lines of code and determine what the program does" 19:31:07 :D 19:31:27 it would of course consist of modules written in all kinds of sick languages 19:35:43 btw could someone put the log link in the topic? it looks so unprofessional 19:36:55 no 19:38:04 ehird: why not? 19:38:31 :P 19:40:17 that isn't a reason 19:40:29 -!- ais523 has set topic: http://normish.org/ircnomiclogs.txt. 19:40:33 * ais523 puts in the logs of the wrong channel 19:43:30 a log is a log 19:44:08 it feels nicely #esoteric to link to the logs of a different channel 19:44:16 :D 19:44:28 maybe make #nomic link our log 19:44:45 assuming that's #nomic's log link, which i have no idea whether it is 19:44:52 ##nomic 19:44:54 #define MAX_SMALLINT ~0 >> 1 19:44:55 * ehird evil 19:44:55 well 19:44:57 with extra parens 19:46:37 * oklopol finds event-driven programming frustrating :| 19:46:46 ehird: that fails due to pp arithmetic, IIRC 19:48:02 ? 19:51:05 -!- jix has joined. 19:51:28 ehird: arithmetic in #if commands is calculated in unsigned long 19:51:43 who said I was using it in an #if, ey? 19:51:45 therefore, people using #if on limits.h constants, which is common, will get a nasty surprise 19:51:51 ehird: you might not be, whoever uses that header might 19:52:02 tough shit, don't fuck with my internal symbols 19:52:09 ah, ok, it's internal 19:52:09 and you won't get a nasty surprise 19:52:11 :P 19:52:13 why not just use limits.h, then? 19:52:21 because it's for a tagged-pointer setup 19:52:23 thus the >>1 20:18:09 Computer people. 20:18:23 All my Firefox pages display text in bold 20:18:26 What the fuck is that 20:19:22 o 20:26:05 -!- Mony has quit ("reboot"). 20:31:18 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to bsmntbombgirl. 20:32:13 :o 20:32:20 bsmntbombgirl: sex change? 20:32:41 * bsmntbombgirl bats her eyes innocently 20:33:01 :=) 20:37:20 hello bsmntbombdoodgirl 21:29:37 -!- Judofyr has quit. 21:59:15 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:11:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:15:02 hey guyz 22:15:07 what hash function shhould I use for a hashtable 22:15:09 simpler is bette 22:15:09 oklopol: rwh is not a classic 22:15:09 r 22:15:12 _yet_ 22:16:56 to take maximum-weight independent set of a tree, MWISofA = (?out >: ?in) { !out +/ (?out >: ?in) ^; !in X + +/ ?out ^ } /: A 22:17:02 7 Outline of Volumes 4C and 4D Optimization and Recursion 22:17:18 i think 4D will have to be split up further. obviously. 22:17:56 i'm trying to make a syntactically J-like language based on explicit search from graphs and trees 22:17:58 lol 22:18:02 oklopol: that is pretty 22:18:06 we should make a language sometime 22:18:33 /: is postorder reduce, kinda. 22:18:57 applies function first to children, then parent 22:19:59 you can get the evaluated children nodes with ^, the rest is just setting out and in, which represent the maximum weights of subtrees for the root being in or out of the independent set 22:20:51 the case "in" means the root is there, in which case you can't have children "in" and thus sum up the "out"s of children 22:21:53 in case "out" you sum the maximums of out and in (given by +/ (?out >: ?in) ^, read "sum maximums of out and in of each child") 22:22:01 oklopol: I brought AnMaster her forchrissakes 22:22:06 and these are simply stored as extra information in each node 22:22:13 i'd have thought you'd stop after that one... 22:22:19 lol 22:22:26 he seemed ok in #bash >.< 22:22:29 ehird: maybe in the summer :< 22:22:31 i don't have the times 22:22:40 oklopol: it can be a language based on non-time 22:22:55 non-time? sounds cool 22:23:09 can you have non-time errors too? 22:23:16 achronia 22:25:31 the tree is given by "A = w1 > >", i have no idea how the syntax works, but it seems to enable you to make arbitrary dags without naming nodes 22:26:24 (it's not sexps, although that might look like it) 22:27:27 oerjan: also that's a fun name 22:28:29 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 22:28:56 ehird: what are you hashing? you could jsut mod by prime 22:28:59 *just 22:29:27 Haskell is confusing 22:29:38 CakeProphet: no it's not 22:29:39 oklopol: strings 22:30:28 It is confusing. :P 22:30:34 'tisn't! 22:30:36 Less so than any of these languages 22:30:39 but still 22:33:24 ehird: so? 22:33:31 well kay 22:33:40 buttttt 22:33:41 why prime 22:33:49 why not powahz of 2 22:34:01 ehird: so the result depends on the whole content 22:34:07 and not just the units 22:34:07 ok but 22:34:17 I don't; really want to calculate a new bigger prime 22:34:20 every time the hash table gets bigger 22:34:28 because this is not a prime searcher :P 22:34:43 i mean i guess i could keep a predefined list but ugh 22:34:59 yeah that's a common problem 22:35:08 you can just guess a number too... 22:35:45 as long as you don't use a number that's mod 0 whatever base you're using for your conversion 22:35:59 powahz of 2 are the worst possible idea, usually 22:36:25 what's wrong with this: http://pastebin.ca/1291784 22:36:29 powers of 3 might work? 22:36:56 might they not? 22:37:03 CakeProphet: because 22:37:08 main is IO () 22:37:12 and 22:37:13 except, at some point you are going to get repetition for long enough strings 22:37:14 (,) is a tuple 22:37:15 not a list 22:37:16 and uh 22:37:20 your code is just totally fucked up, okay 22:37:32 i don't think you understand monads, types or lists 22:38:57 returning a tuple where an element is the result of recursion is generally a bad idea 22:39:12 but yeah what ehird said 22:39:30 CakeProphet: get yourself an edumacation realworldhaskell.com or learnyouahaskell.com 22:39:32 Io> ("hello worldab" sum) % 11 22:39:32 ==> 2 22:39:34 Io> ("hello worldabc" sum) % 11 22:39:34 CakeProphet: in general unless you are doing fancy stuff, IO goes only on the final result of a function, outside all other types 22:39:35 ==> 2 22:39:36 ehird: no I don't. 22:39:38 lol wat 22:39:40 guess i need a bigger prime 22:39:42 CakeProphet: ok, so learn them 22:39:46 *result type 22:39:48 oerjan: i think the problem is more fundamental here 22:40:27 well, true 22:40:44 that's the difference between mathematicians and humans 22:40:54 oklopol: what initial prime do yo u think I should use 22:40:59 us mathematicians start from the details 22:41:10 you humans just say "lol that's retarded" 22:41:18 ehird: 19 22:41:23 why 19 22:41:32 hey oklopol just give me a good list of primes to use :P 22:41:33 for a while now, 9 has been my number of zen 22:41:49 suddenly, one day, it changed to 90, then 81 and 89, and now it's 19 22:41:53 ha i found a collision!!!!!!! 22:42:02 Io> ("hello worldabcderdfgdfg" sum) % 19 22:42:02 ==> 17 22:42:04 Io> ("hello worldabcdz" sum) % 19 22:42:05 ==> 17 22:42:07 bitch 22:42:10 ofc thats not surprising 22:42:12 :P 22:42:16 Io> 22:42:17 butttttt 22:42:23 oklopol: http://iolanguage.com/ 22:42:30 's nice and stuff 22:42:34 yeah i was wondering if it was that 22:42:46 i don't know anything about it 22:43:16 what's differential inheritance? 22:43:19 * oklopol wp's 22:43:26 oklopol: its prototype based 22:43:31 and it can have multiple prototypes 22:43:37 and only the slots which differ from the parents are stored 22:43:47 i don't think you understand monads, types or lists 22:43:53 also, operator precedence 22:43:56 -!- Mony has joined. 22:44:04 oerjan: ALSO LIFE 22:44:05 :O 22:44:15 ehird: right, okay 22:44:28 oklopol: it has become() like smalltalk 22:44:32 (makes one object literally become another) 22:44:36 unfortunately 3 become(4) doesn't work :P 22:44:39 yup 22:45:08 4 = 3 but (value + 1) 22:45:12 I've been trying to get Haskell forever but it is not happening with what I'm reading. 22:45:16 in a scripting language of mine 22:45:25 CakeProphet: what book 22:45:47 i think your silence identifies our problem 22:46:12 he's probably just reading his own code 22:46:14 ...what? 22:46:22 CakeProphet: what haskell book are you reading 22:46:42 ok, I deserve the swatter for that 22:46:51 * oerjan is happy to oblige -----### 22:47:03 The Internet 22:47:03 not any specific book 22:47:11 CakeProphet: 22:47:14 http://realworldhaskell.com/ 22:47:18 http://learnyouahaskell.com/ 22:47:19 err 22:47:22 http://learnyouahaskellforgreatgood.com/ 22:47:25 pick both 22:47:30 err 22:47:31 http://learnyouahaskell.com/ 22:47:33 was right the first time 22:47:40 CakeProphet: i recall it is generally agreed that there is a plethora of really _lousy_ monad tutorials out there 22:48:02 CakeProphet: you really need those books 22:48:06 start from scratch 22:48:14 because every other haskell learner decides to write one after it clicks for them 22:48:17 it'll be sweet. I promise 22:48:25 oerjan: i have as of yet resisted that urge 22:48:33 although I still have the problem of thinking I can explain monads -perfectly- 22:48:39 me too :( 22:48:43 me too, although that may be only my fundamental laziness :D 22:48:49 when people start explaining it another way in #haskell i'm like 22:48:51 SHUT UP SHUT UP 22:48:53 LET ME EXPLAIN IT 22:48:54 * oklopol wants to write a monad tutorial that understands the whole concept entirely wrong and then advertise it everywhere 22:48:57 YOU'RE BEING CONFUSING 22:49:02 <- lazier than haskell 22:49:08 oerjan: unpossible! 22:49:17 the one on Wikibooks and this: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Hitchhikers_guide_to_Haskell 22:49:17 at the moment 22:50:50 oerjan: want to name another language of mine? 22:51:09 ehird: i often don't do things _even_ when required 22:51:18 CakeProphet: right 22:51:20 listen 22:51:22 http://realworldhaskell.com/ 22:51:25 http://learnyouahaskell.com/ 22:51:26 read both 22:51:28 I say start with learn you 22:51:31 to grasp the basics and the idea 22:51:35 then move on to RWH to write programs 22:51:43 creating graphs (possibly lazily) and searching nodes from them using explicitly given traversals 22:51:45 it *will* click 22:51:49 it's a matter of unlearning 22:51:54 oklopol: graversal 22:52:06 i like the grave there 22:52:18 although i might prefer graversed 22:52:25 graverse 22:52:31 hmm 22:52:36 yeah that's pretty nice 22:53:03 it has traverse, graph, grave and verse, which gives a songy feel to it 22:53:30 graves are nice because the syntax will probably make you dig one for yourself 22:53:40 obviously. 22:54:49 okay not really readings ->>>->>-> 22:54:53 ... 22:54:54 *now 22:54:55 -> 22:55:08 I'm getting ridiculous IRC lag 22:55:08 I get nothing and then all of a sudden... PAGE OF CHATTING 22:55:12 * oerjan watches oklopol slip on the freud 22:55:34 "slip" 22:55:36 on the "freud" 22:56:32 ehird: those apostrophes are completely penis 22:56:41 totally 22:57:00 i mean quotation marks 22:57:04 another slip there 22:57:26 "another" 22:57:33 "slip" 22:57:34 "there" 22:57:35 " " 22:57:37 " " 22:57:39 " " 22:57:40 my ping of CakeProphet hasn't come back 22:57:42 (that's the invisible space) 22:57:57 "invisible" 22:58:01 "\n" 22:58:07 "\"" 22:58:31 "\"\\\"... 22:58:36 stakk overfluw 22:58:41 oops 22:58:43 freudian slip 22:58:45 fix show 22:59:04 I prefer fix error 22:59:21 though that one is pretty awesome 22:59:35 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:03:42 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 23:05:47 ^ul ((ping )S:^):^ 23:05:47 ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ...too much output! 23:06:15 ^ul ((...too much output! )S:^):^ 23:06:15 ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...t ...too much output! 23:06:30 STOP STUTTERING 23:07:40 ^ul ((ping )(pong )):^!S(~:^~!:Sa~^*a*~:^):^ 23:07:40 ping pong ping pong pong ping pong ping pong pong ping pong pong ping pong ping pong pong ping pong ping pong pong ping pong pong ping pong ping pong pong ping pong pong ping pong ping pong pong ping pong ping pong pong ping pong pong ping pong ping pong pong ping pong ping pong pong ping pong pong ping pong ping pong pong ...too much output! 23:07:54 hm that's not right 23:08:25 ^ul ((ping )(pong )):^!S(~:^:S*a~^*a*~:^):^ 23:08:25 ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping ...too much output! 23:08:45 ^ul ((ping )(pong )):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^ 23:08:46 ping pong pong ping pong ping ping pong pong ping ping pong ping pong pong ping pong ping ping pong ping pong pong ping ping pong pong ping pong ping ping pong pong ping ping pong ping pong pong ping ping pong pong ping pong ping ping pong ping pong pong ping pong ping ping pong pong ping ping pong ping pong pong ping pong ...too much output! 23:09:30 +ul ((...too much output! )S:^):^ 23:09:31 ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! 23:09:38 +ul (:aSS):aSS 23:09:38 (:aSS):aSS 23:09:43 now to iterateify it 23:10:16 TO iTERRIFY IT 23:10:17 iteratificatificate 23:10:21 (A new Apple product) 23:10:26 +ul ((+ul)(^ul)S( )S)^ 23:10:27 ^ul 23:11:00 +ul ((+ul)(^ul)S( )S):aSS 23:11:00 ((+ul)(^ul)S( )S)(+ul)(^ul)S( )S 23:11:08 +ul ((+ul)(^ul)S( )S):^aS 23:11:08 ^ul (+ul) 23:11:18 +ul ((+ul)(^ul)S( )S):^:aSS 23:11:18 ^ul (+ul)+ul 23:11:29 +ul ((+ul)(^ul)S( )S):aSS 23:11:29 ((+ul)(^ul)S( )S)(+ul)(^ul)S( )S 23:11:33 +ul ((+ul)(^ul)S( )S):aS 23:11:33 ((+ul)(^ul)S( )S) 23:11:40 stfu 23:11:48 bsmntbombgirl: no. 23:12:22 +ul (+ul)(^ul):^~ 23:12:26 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S~( )S 23:12:26 ^ul 23:12:32 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S~( )SaS 23:12:33 ^ul (+ul) 23:12:38 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaS 23:12:38 ^ul (^ul) 23:12:42 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS 23:12:42 ^ul (^ul)(+ul) 23:13:09 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS(:S( )SaSaS):aSS 23:13:09 ^ul (^ul)(+ul)(:S( )SaSaS):S( )SaSaS 23:13:14 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS(:S( )SaSaS):SaS 23:13:14 ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S( )SaSaS(:S( )SaSaS) 23:13:24 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS):SaS):SaS 23:13:24 ^ul (^ul)(+ul)(:S( )SaSaS):SaS((:S( )SaSaS):SaS) 23:13:46 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S)^ 23:13:46 ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S( )SaSaS 23:13:51 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS):aSS)^ 23:13:51 ^ul (^ul)(+ul)(:S( )SaSaS):S( )SaSaS 23:13:56 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS):SaS)^ 23:13:56 ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S( )SaSaS(:S( )SaSaS) 23:14:10 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS):SaS):^S 23:14:10 ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S( )SaSaS(:S( )SaSaS)(:S( )SaSaS):SaS 23:14:17 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S):^S 23:14:17 ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S( )SaSaS(:S( )SaSaS)S 23:14:29 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS):^S):^S 23:14:30 ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S{{ }}SaSaS {{:S{{ }}SaSaS}}{{{{:S{{ }}SaSaS}}:^S}} ...S out of stack! 23:14:33 oerjan: wtf 23:14:37 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS):S):^S 23:14:37 ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S( )SaSaS:S( )SaSaS 23:14:44 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS):aS):^S 23:14:45 ^ul (^ul)(+ul)(:S( )SaSaS):S( )SaSaS 23:14:50 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS):SaS):^S 23:14:51 ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S( )SaSaS(:S( )SaSaS)(:S( )SaSaS):SaS 23:15:08 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS):SaS):^aS 23:15:09 ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S( )SaSaS(:S( )SaSaS)((:S( )SaSaS):SaS) 23:15:14 Don't sass me ehird 23:15:17 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)):^aS 23:15:17 ^ul (^ul)(+ul)(:S( )SaSaS) 23:15:20 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S):^aS 23:15:21 ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S) 23:15:32 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S)(:^aS):^aS 23:15:37 ... 23:15:42 oh 23:15:45 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S)(:^aS)^aS 23:15:48 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S)(^aS)^aS 23:15:52 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S) 23:15:54 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S)S 23:15:58 +ul (hm?)S 23:15:58 thutubot? 23:15:59 ^ul (^ul)(+ul) ...too much memory used! 23:15:59 ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S{{ }}SaSaS{{{{:S{{ }}SaSaS}}S}} ...a out of stack! 23:16:00 ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S{{ }}SaSaS ...a out of stack! 23:16:00 ^ul (^ul)(+ul) 23:16:00 ^ul (^ul)(+ul)(:S( )SaSaS)S 23:16:00 hm? 23:16:03 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S)S 23:16:03 ^ul (^ul)(+ul)(:S( )SaSaS)S 23:16:09 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S):SaS 23:16:09 ^ul (^ul)(+ul)(:S( )SaSaS)S((:S( )SaSaS)S) 23:16:15 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S):aSS 23:16:15 ^ul (^ul)(+ul)((:S( )SaSaS)S)(:S( )SaSaS)S 23:16:26 -!- lolbot has joined. 23:16:28 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 23:16:35 lolbot? Uh oh. 23:16:45 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S)::SaSS 23:16:45 ^ul (^ul)(+ul)(:S( )SaSaS)S((:S( )SaSaS)S)(:S( )SaSaS)S 23:16:53 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S)::S 23:16:54 ^ul (^ul)(+ul)(:S( )SaSaS)S 23:17:03 .py print "test" 23:17:09 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )(:S( )SaSaS):^ 23:17:10 ^ul:S( )SaSaS (:S( )SaSaS)( ) 23:17:11 bah 23:17:19 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )(S( )SaSaS):^ 23:17:19 ^ulS( )SaSaS ( )(^ul) 23:17:24 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )S 23:17:25 ^ul 23:17:29 .help 23:17:36 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )(S)^ 23:17:36 ^ul 23:17:50 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )(SS)^ 23:17:50 ^ul ^ul 23:17:54 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )(SSS)^ 23:17:54 ^ul ^ul+ul 23:18:01 +ul (+ul)(^ul)S( )(SS)^ 23:18:01 ^ul +ul 23:18:09 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )(SS)^ 23:18:09 ^ul ^ul 23:18:13 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )(S)^ 23:18:13 ^ul 23:18:15 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )()^ 23:18:15 ^ul 23:18:21 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )S()^ 23:18:21 ^ul 23:18:23 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )S(S)^ 23:18:23 ^ul ^ul 23:18:24 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )S(SS)^ 23:18:25 ^ul ^ul+ul 23:18:27 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )S(aSaS)^ 23:18:27 ^ul (^ul)(+ul) 23:18:33 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )S(aSaS):^S 23:18:33 ^ul (aSaS)(^ul)+ul 23:18:42 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )S(aSaS)S 23:18:42 ^ul aSaS 23:18:47 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )S(aSaS)aS 23:18:47 ^ul (aSaS) 23:18:54 +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )S(aSaS):^^ 23:18:54 ^ul (aSaS)(^ul) 23:19:00 oerjan: halp 23:19:04 Haven't we already have had enough of them +ul/^ul variants? 23:19:11 what are you trying to do? 23:19:53 oerjan: iterating quine 23:20:00 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^ 23:20:00 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^ 23:20:01 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^ 23:20:09 no fizzie 23:20:11 i didn't say write me one 23:20:16 I said help me :P 23:20:30 I was just checking whether I log-grepped one line. 23:20:42 +ul (^ul)(+ul)S 23:20:42 +ul 23:20:44 +ul (^ul)(+ul)S 23:20:44 +ul 23:20:45 -!- ehird has left (?). 23:20:47 But I think that one is one of the easiest to understand, since it's pretty much just swappity and a. 23:20:48 -!- ehird has joined. 23:21:53 Anyway, that one is just swaps, a, and prints, plus a constant ":^" in the end; it's the simplest one of those I've seen. 23:21:56 +ul (+ul)(^ul) 23:21:58 +ul (+ul)(^ul)S 23:21:59 ^ul 23:22:05 +ul (+ul)(^ul):SaSaS 23:22:05 ^ul(^ul)(+ul) 23:22:08 Musts sleep, have the fun. 23:22:09 +ul (+ul )(^ul ):SaSaS 23:22:09 ^ul (^ul )(+ul ) 23:22:15 bye fizzie :) 23:22:19 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(:SaSaS)^ 23:22:19 ^ul (^ul )(+ul ) 23:22:23 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(:SaSaS):^S 23:22:23 :SaSaS(:SaSaS)(^ul )+ul 23:22:26 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(:SaSaS):^ 23:22:26 :SaSaS(:SaSaS)(^ul ) 23:22:30 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(:SaSaS)^ 23:22:30 ^ul (^ul )(+ul ) 23:22:31 wait 23:22:32 fizzie: 23:22:34 what's dip 23:22:36 I forgot :| 23:22:38 oh right 23:22:45 ~a*^ 23:22:57 : (b)(a)(S)~a*^ 23:22:59 +ul (b)(a)(S)~a*^ 23:22:59 b 23:23:05 +ul (b)(a)(S)~a*^S 23:23:05 ba 23:23:17 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(:SaSaS):(^)~a*^ 23:23:17 ^ul (^ul )(+ul ) 23:23:20 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(:SaSaS):(^)~a*^S 23:23:20 ^ul (^ul )(+ul ):SaSaS 23:23:24 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(:SaSaS):(^)~a*^aS 23:23:24 ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(:SaSaS) 23:23:30 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(:SaSaS)(:(^)~a*^aS):^S 23:23:31 ^ul {{^ul }}{{+ul }}{{:SaSaS}}{{:{{^}}~a*^aS}} ...S out of stack! 23:23:32 +ul (+ul )(^ul )(:SaSaS)(:(^)~a*^aS):^aS 23:23:33 ^ul {{^ul }}{{+ul }}{{:SaSaS}}{{:{{^}}~a*^aS}} ...a out of stack! 23:23:34 bah fuck it 23:24:58 If you stick your ^ul, +ul and "the program itself" strings in right order, you just need to print the middle one (so ~:S) to get the right beginning, then the middle one and first one again in parens, and finally the program and a :^. 23:25:04 That's what I did there, anyway. 23:25:06 Really, sleeps. 23:27:01 -!- cruce has changed nick to cpu-jockey. 23:32:44 -!- lolbot has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2008-12-23: 00:13:39 sleepance for me too 00:13:40 -> 00:39:58 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:51:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 01:02:44 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:28:46 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 01:34:47 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 01:36:17 What's Haskell's reduce function? 02:08:38 -!- Mony has quit ("zZz"). 02:09:17 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 02:12:52 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:12:53 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:13:53 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:18:21 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 02:18:37 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:21:30 CakeProphet: fold[rl] 02:21:36 got it. 02:21:49 apparently concat is what I want though 02:22:02 concat = foldl (++) [] 02:22:05 I believe 02:22:43 yes 04:10:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 04:13:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:00:15 o 05:54:57 alright, my Haskell knowledge is now to the point where I can write simple programs that utilize stdin/stdout 05:55:20 and I have a feeling I could figure out monads now that I know how Random works. 06:15:30 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 07:03:16 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Unisex."). 07:05:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:10:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 07:13:13 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:23:42 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:33:43 -!- Corun has joined. 07:37:27 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Unisex."). 07:39:54 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:18:38 CakeProphet: yeah 08:18:44 Random is basically an explicit monad 08:54:32 A Personal Appeal From 08:54:32 Wikipedia Founder Jimmy Wales 08:54:33 NO 08:54:36 FUCK YOU 08:54:38 FUCK YOU WKIPEDIA 08:54:40 AND YOUR FUCKING RED BORDER 08:54:42 RED 08:54:44 FUCKING 08:54:46 BORDER 08:54:49 I DON'T GIVE A FUCKING SHIT THAT YOU CAN'T AFFORD SHIT 08:54:57 MAYBE YOU SHOULD COME UP WITH A BETTER WAY OF RAISING FUNDS THAN PISSING PEOPLE OFF 08:54:58 WITH AR 08:54:59 RED 08:55:00 FUCKING 08:55:03 BORDER 08:55:05 EAT SHIT AND DIE 09:22:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 10:07:35 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:09:05 -!- Judofyr has joined. 11:24:31 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:42:37 -!- Mony has joined. 11:43:50 hihi 11:47:04 hi 11:52:14 ^ul ((hi)S:^):^ 11:52:14 hihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihi ...too much output! 11:58:11 -!- kar8nga has joined. 12:08:59 fungot: (< 1 2) 12:09:00 KingOfKarlsruhe: a person, that player held that office. furthermore, the following 12:21:18 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:51:12 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:02:04 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 14:10:00 -!- jix has joined. 14:32:24 o 14:36:22 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 14:52:39 i think i have an idea how to implement brainfuck with + and - adding differentials 14:53:17 Continuous brainfuck? :o 14:53:23 for the main loop, you first do a run where you just store the amount of differentials added to each cell 14:53:26 Although you would need an infinity of 'em! 14:53:58 and also store the depencies for each loop, what cells need to become zero or one before their behavior changes 14:54:49 then it's just a matter of math to be able to add and subtract something from each node to make the branching behavior change 14:55:04 Slereah_: what? :) 14:55:49 toplevel inc's add and subtract a constant one, that's where you get actual numbers 14:56:00 and yes continuous brainfuck 14:56:21 so maybe contfuck :d 14:56:31 oklopol: find a way to fit u's in to it! 14:56:35 u's? 14:56:50 oh 14:56:51 lol 14:56:52 :D 14:56:54 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:56:55 * oklopol is slow 14:57:11 maybe unions then 14:57:52 if my idea works, this shouldn't be that hard 14:57:56 hmm. 14:57:58 output and input 14:58:06 how does that work :D 14:58:16 hmm... 14:58:45 maybe output could be graphical and input mouse only, so continuous output would make sense 14:58:50 continuous IO 14:59:16 not that that really gives any insight as to how to actually do it. 14:59:28 for instance +[-.] 14:59:46 should output the whole (0,1] 14:59:50 wait 14:59:55 [0,1) 15:00:26 except (1,0], because i guess the ordering matters 15:00:33 well. 15:00:41 maybe for now, it could just print in that notation. 15:01:29 +[-------------------.] hehe, exact same thing 15:01:38 * Sgeo should learn this quantum stuff at some point 15:01:57 +[>++.<-] should print (0,2] 15:01:59 erm wait, you're not talking quantum, are you? Ranges stuff 15:02:07 I know ranges or whatever 15:02:09 i'm talking about differentialz 15:02:23 well continuous ranges are very different from discrete ones 15:02:34 you can't apply the usual inductive thinking 15:03:00 which is why i'm very sceptic about this all. 15:03:22 just seems i solved it, can't see a problem in doing it like i explained (or tried to explain) 15:05:00 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:05:29 Sgeo: the idea is +[>++.<-] first sets a cell to 1, because + does that when we're not in a loop 15:05:35 then, when we get inside 15:05:40 things get differential. 15:05:50 basically, we move to the cell on the right 15:06:01 and add two differentials (infinitesimally small numbers) 15:06:24 and then print that new number, move back, and subtract one differential from the 1 we put in the first cell 15:07:09 now, because these numbers are infinitesimally small, we will do an uncountable number of cycles 15:07:37 but 15:08:15 now all we need to know is the first cell always gets decremented once for each time the second cell incremented added twice 15:08:29 now all we need to know is the first cell always gets decremented once for each time the second cell gets incremented twice 15:08:34 a little typo there. 15:09:03 so, naturally as the first 1 gets decremented into a 0, the second one gets incremented into a 2 15:10:07 this is of course the kind of inductive reasoning that doesn't always apply with reals 15:11:15 but it does in this case, the crux of seeing why is to realize the logic that determines what is added to which cell during the loop doesn't change no matter how much the cell values change, until the first cell reaches 0 15:11:49 so we can start doing larger jumps than the infitesimally small ones, as long as we can prove we aren't "jumping over zeroes". 15:13:24 changing by a differential can't jump over a zero because if at some point a cell value is -a, and it changes to a by infitesimally small changes, we have to have gone through 0 at some point 15:14:29 adding differentials means, intuitively, that we enumerate through all reals, which is of course impossible, but you can get the behavior to be the same using math 15:14:35 but i'm just rambling, don't mind me 15:19:32 hai oklopol 15:19:45 hy 15:21:58 oklopol: so how come finns are like 15:22:01 functional programming weenies 15:22:03 and esolang weenies 15:22:05 they're everywhere 15:23:01 well dunno, i've bumped into about 20 on freenode, out of 5 million 15:23:16 oklopol: look in #haskell 15:23:17 and grep for fi 15:23:19 also 15:23:21 msot people in here are finnish 15:23:23 srsly 15:23:27 most actives at least 15:23:36 well yes, true 15:23:38 i have no idea. 15:24:15 so, ehird. are you going to cambridge next year? 15:24:29 oklopol: wat 15:24:53 wat wat? i asked you a random question, how can i justify it any further 15:26:49 oklopol: specify cambridge further 15:27:15 the university, or college, i don't really know what the deal is between the two. 15:28:27 I don't exactly have plans to try and see if they'd welcome a random 14 year old, no. :P 15:28:43 :-) 15:28:53 do you own at school? 15:29:16 I AM REALLY DUMB 15:29:19 I just play a clever person on the internet. 15:29:20 ^ Lies 15:29:24 ^ Lies 15:29:27 ^ Infinite lies. 15:29:31 ^ Not a lie. 15:29:50 oh i see 15:32:29 wait 14? 15:32:33 are you 14 15:32:36 no 15:32:39 but i will be next year 15:32:40 wait 15:32:42 next year 15:32:45 uhhuh! i get it! 15:32:51 * oklopol smartz it up 15:38:58 * AnMaster looks around 15:40:47 AnMaster: you weird people have xmas tomorrow 15:40:47 freaks 15:43:51 yay i don't have band training, can raed and coed <3 15:44:19 oklopol: coed a cod 16:05:41 -!- Judofyr has quit. 16:17:08 ehird, indeed we do 16:17:17 weirdooooooooooos 16:17:20 * AnMaster whistles some xmas melodies 16:17:26 ehird, you are just envious :P 16:18:00 no, I'm not the weirdo 16:18:02 who celebrates X 16:18:04 on X ev 16:18:05 e 16:18:37 x? x-ray? 16:18:55 X for all X 16:19:35 ah 16:25:31 *Rontgen 16:26:06 ooooooooooooo 16:29:06 Slereah_, Röntgen yes, what about it? 16:32:29 Rontgen ray, not X ray! 16:33:11 i hate it when concepts have people names 16:33:29 Even Feynmann diagrams? :o 16:34:30 | 16:36:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Beta_Negative_Decay.svg oh my god this is beautiful 16:36:47 Slereah_: yes, even feynman diagrams. 16:37:03 You're a monster 16:37:22 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 16:37:26 What about the TURING MACHINE? 16:37:28 HUH? 16:37:37 the interaction of balanced and unbalanced loops is very confusing in contfuck 16:37:54 Slereah_: universal machine is a better term 16:38:15 Universal machine is confusing 16:38:32 It could be the Turing machine, or the Turing machine interpreter on the Turing machine! 16:38:33 that's the beauty of taking terms from english and not names 16:38:39 oh 16:38:44 confusing like that 16:39:26 The real Turing machine was originally called the automatic machine :o 16:39:34 Or "computing machine" 16:39:43 both would be better terms than tm 16:40:27 Or that worker in that box, if you use the Emil Post article 16:40:37 I'm not sure he actually names the concet 16:42:06 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:56:08 Rontgen ray, not X ray! 17:56:11 same in Swedish 17:56:21 röntgenstrÃ¥lar 17:59:32 -!- comex has changed nick to Aias. 18:00:05 -!- lolbot has joined. 18:05:07 -!- Judofyr has joined. 18:19:08 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:33:26 -!- lolbot has quit. 18:36:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:51:58 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 18:52:41 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:53:04 -!- Hiato1 has joined. 19:08:40 ais523: are you here by any chance 19:10:48 no 19:10:55 oklopol: try /w ais523 19:10:58 never! 19:11:07 okay i did 19:11:09 what should i see 19:11:38 oklopol: he's marked as away 19:11:44 well, he's not 19:11:47 but idle 22 hours 19:12:11 my /w doesn't show idle time 19:12:24 also 22 hours of being idle doesn't automatically mean you're not here 19:12:41 probably does for ais523 if he doesn't have an internet connection, but anyway 19:14:14 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:37:38 -!- cherez has joined. 19:38:41 -!- cherez has left (?). 19:55:32 -!- jayCampbell has joined. 19:57:34 -!- Hiato1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:02:57 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:10:15 o 20:30:33 -!- lolbot has joined. 20:36:20 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:37:48 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:55:23 -!- lolbot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:56:04 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:56:28 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:57:14 -!- lolbot has joined. 21:07:55 -!- Mony has joined. 21:11:26 hi oklopol 21:32:52 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 22:09:05 -!- Judofyr has joined. 22:29:46 hi.! 22:30:44 oklopol: LESS MAKE LANUAGE 22:30:45 :.: 22:32:27 :-=) 22:32:32 but i need to reeeeeead 22:33:22 but oklopol 22:33:25 if we make a language 22:33:28 we can make a book 22:33:28 about 22:33:29 the language 22:33:31 and 22:33:33 then you can 22:33:35 read 22:33:37 it 22:40:57 -!- Corun has joined. 22:41:27 perhaps we should make a haskell-derivative in the nopular paradigm by making all functions return void 22:41:34 return () i mean 22:45:51 hmm. well you could cps tcness, just that you couldn't output the result at the nodes of evaluation 22:47:07 oklopol: how about haskell that only has 22:47:13 no functions 22:47:14 just 22:47:17 application 22:47:25 and you make programs out of infinite nested applications 22:49:15 hmm. no functions? you mean not even predefined ones 22:49:36 i mean if there's predefined functions, you can just do point-free 22:50:22 oklopol: no predefined 22:50:29 it's all based on the structure of the applications 22:50:37 infinite, naturally 22:50:39 oklopol: basically 22:50:46 you write your program in a sub-TC metalanguage 22:50:53 that describes an infinite tree of applications 22:50:55 maybe even a graph 22:50:56 then 22:50:58 semantics 22:51:01 on top of the structure of it 22:52:38 oklopol: the interpreter could output a nice png or w/e 22:52:41 at any scale 22:52:45 heck, you could construct fractal programs 22:53:58 infinite programs are niec 22:54:23 fractal programs? preprocessor macros that allow recursion 22:55:04 oklopol: you have to code in a metalanguage, beacuse the programs are an infinite tree/graph 22:56:59 yes that is an inevitability 22:57:08 i think i should change book again 22:57:43 or sleep 22:57:48 sleep or read? 22:57:50 ^bool 22:57:50 No. 22:57:56 err. 22:57:58 wait 22:58:03 that didn't help! 22:58:09 sleep? 22:58:11 ^bool 22:58:11 Yes. 22:58:14 :| 22:58:19 yeah right, i'm gonna eat 22:59:14 but it'll be sub-tc 22:59:41 so its just a metalanguage 23:00:44 oklopol: circle program: 23:00:53 well 23:00:58 little looping program 23:00:59 same thing 23:00:59 :P 23:01:13 () * (); 23:01:27 two-point loop 23:01:29 a * (); 23:01:30 () * a; 23:01:44 line to a loop 23:01:46 () * a; 23:01:47 a * b; 23:01:48 b * a; 23:02:01 line to both ends of a loop 23:02:10 () * (a / b); 23:02:11 a * b; 23:02:12 b * a; 23:02:22 () = main program 23:02:22 -!- jayCampbell has left (?). 23:03:55 oklopol: ?? 23:03:56 :D 23:05:03 oh... my...... god 23:05:04 that's 23:05:06 AWESOME 23:05:07 !! 23:05:11 \\OO// 23:05:12 oklopol: isn't it just! 23:05:16 YES 23:05:20 the hard part is assigning meaningful semantics ofc 23:05:22 but the point is 23:05:26 you have basically a graph language. 23:05:30 it's FAIRLY and QUITE awesome. 23:05:36 wow, I impressed oklopol 23:05:39 are you sure you're not being sarcastic? 23:05:55 i'm being 100% sarcastic and not sarcastic at the same time. 23:06:04 oklopol: so is it awesome or not 23:06:06 -!- lolbot has quit. 23:06:07 i'm quantum sarcastic. 23:06:20 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 23:06:26 is * a rewriting thingie 23:06:26 -!- lolbot has joined. 23:06:33 psygnisfive: what are you doing here? 23:06:33 What's your sarcastic wave function? 23:06:41 what do you mean what am i doing here 23:06:42 im lurking 23:06:45 what else would i be doing here 23:07:16 you could be playing the ball........ 23:07:29 playing the ball? 23:07:35 oklopol: * is connecting 23:07:39 / is dividing 23:07:40 Playing my balls 23:07:43 oh okay. 23:07:58 oklopol: the interesting part ofc is making all that t 23:07:59 tc 23:08:02 with actual semantics 23:08:17 well yeah sure okay i now realize what you were doing up there 23:08:25 -!- lolbot has quit (Client Quit). 23:08:43 -!- lolbot has joined. 23:09:02 ehird: so plz supply a semantics 23:09:08 well halp 23:09:09 :P 23:09:31 so umm. first of all how's that syntax do infinite graphs 23:09:56 how does it not 23:10:00 it has circular graphz 23:10:16 infinite graphs are just circular graphs. 23:10:24 ehird: what? no. 23:10:29 circular graphs are finite 23:10:31 well kinda 23:12:20 circular graphs are circular 23:12:23 obviously 23:12:26 indeed. 23:12:31 and necessarily not infinite 23:12:44 unless ofcourse you have a circle of infinite circumference 23:12:49 which is i suppose technically possible 23:13:03 just like you can have a line segment (not line) of infinite length 23:13:30 that's a straight line in those circumstances i've seen it make sense 23:13:44 ey? 23:13:47 which cases? 23:13:56 well, i shouldnt actually say line segment sorry 23:14:04 what i meant was a curve with two end points 23:14:17 a straight line is a circle that passes through infinity in the gaussian sphere 23:15:08 -!- lolbot has quit. 23:15:24 -!- lolbot has joined. 23:15:33 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 23:17:40 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:18:35 sheesh 23:18:40 *riemann sphere 23:19:25 feynman sphere 23:23:36 Isle of Man sphere 23:24:26 sphere of influenza 23:24:52 Smear of influenza 23:25:39 things getting outta hands? 23:26:05 You're right 23:26:11 Let's get back to the basics 23:26:14 okokokokokokoko 23:26:34 okokokokokokoko 23:26:38 okoko oko 23:26:43 ooookokokoko 23:26:57 o? ko. 23:27:04 okoko okokoko oko okokoko okokokokooooooooooooooooooooooooo 23:27:07 o! 23:27:52 o oko okoko oko, okoko okokoko o okoko oko, oko o okoko. 23:28:27 oh 23:28:30 oklopol 23:28:35 oko okoko okokoko okoko oko oko okokoko okokokokoko o o o 23:28:44 i inadvertently induced a moment of okokoko in #isharia a few days ago 23:28:56 ehird: an infinite graph means the graph is infinite 23:29:01 what you're going for 23:29:04 is an infinite tree 23:29:10 tru 23:29:15 a graph that has cycles is an infinite tree when you root it 23:29:48 a graph that has cycles is not a tree :P 23:30:07 okay a cyclic infinite graph 23:30:26 psygnisfive: the rooting process is what matters 23:30:31 oklopol 23:30:32 its not 23:30:36 if it has cycles, its not a tree 23:30:42 because a tree is any connected acyclic graph 23:30:46 by definition. :P 23:30:51 so if it has cycles, its not a tree. 23:31:31 ... 23:32:15 i'm just explaining to ehird what he meant, i don't really give a shit if you don't understand what he meant 23:32:37 who knows what ehird meant. im simply saying that if it has cycles, its not a tree. 23:32:53 rooting means constructing the universal covering, i presume 23:32:55 i think ill make irrelevant comments of random pedanticism all the time 23:32:56 blah. the point is 23:33:15 you root it arbitrarily, and do bredth-first to get an infinite tree. 23:33:34 i know the definition of a tree. 23:33:34 oerjan: who knows. the root of a tree is just a specially designated node in the tree. 23:36:16 psygnisfive: so say you have the graph abca, you root it at b, and start doing bfs, and you get the infinite tree (b (a (b ...) (c ...)) (c (b ...) (a ...))) 23:36:25 makes more sense if it's directed 23:36:32 what? 23:36:37 i dont know what that means 23:36:43 which part 23:36:52 the whole thing 23:37:03 i can sort of guess what you mean by the graph abca but other than that 23:37:04 abca is a cycle of three nodes 23:38:07 start doing bfs = start from the root node, make it the root of the infinite tree, make all nodes it's connected to in the graph the children of the root of the tree, the standard bfs 23:38:36 (b (a (b ...) (c ...)) (c (b ...) (a ...))) <<< a tree with b as the root, left child (a (b ...) (c ...)), right child (c (b ...) (a ...)) 23:38:51 (parent left-child-branch right-child-branch) 23:39:03 i see 23:39:06 if you still don't get that, ask ehird, this is very trivial 23:39:08 okay 23:39:08 good. 23:40:13 so let me just clarify to make sure i know what you mean 23:40:26 if a->b, b->c, c->a is the graph 23:41:17 by rooting it at b, we construct a tree with b as the rood, and {a, c} as the children of b, because {a, c} are connected to b? 23:41:17 hm the vertices of the result correspond to paths from the chosen vertex in the original graph 23:42:14 (finite ones) 23:42:37 -!- Mony has quit ("zZZ"). 23:49:19 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 23:54:17 oerjan: yes 23:54:24 oklopol :| 23:54:43 psygnisfive: well if it's directed then a more sensible way would probably to have the tree be just b -> c -> a -> b... 23:55:00 thats not a tree, as it has cycles 2008-12-24: 00:01:15 clearly the b nodes are different 00:01:24 there's no cycle, just an infinite tree 00:01:31 well you didn't write them differently :P 00:01:46 because they correspond to the node b 00:01:54 this is like deja vu, in some sense 00:02:12 you keep saying that 00:02:25 i just recently wrote a 25 page, single spaced paper on a very closely related issue 00:02:27 i don't see why you insist on understanding this 00:02:41 i see 00:02:45 elaborate at once 00:02:48 well 00:02:53 im a syntactician 00:03:02 no, you're a pedant. 00:03:12 i do research into natural language syntax, and syntactic theory 00:03:17 naturally 00:03:36 and so obviously one of the main ideas in natural language syntax is, ofcourse, syntactic trees 00:03:53 and more importantly, tree building 00:03:58 well yes, i know it was about syntactic trees 00:04:00 that was kind of a given 00:04:07 /tree generation 00:04:17 hmm 00:04:23 give us semantic trees 00:04:28 with flowery prose! 00:04:37 some contemporary versions of tree building are ones that employ directed acyclic graphs 00:04:50 so that a single node can be dominated by more than one other node 00:05:08 dominated? 00:05:11 yes 00:05:18 a->b means a immediately dominates b 00:05:30 right. haven't heard that term 00:05:38 and a dominates b if a->b or if a->c and c dominates b 00:05:48 basically, domination is just a path in a DAG 00:05:48 i know 00:05:57 thats really what it amounts to 00:06:04 yes yes 00:06:12 just hadn't heard the term 00:06:17 anyway, there are some ideas being thrown around that depend on certain asymmetric relationships between nodes in a tree 00:06:29 or rather, asymmetric instances of a relationship 00:06:58 and when you have more than one node dominating some other node, these asymmetric relationships are not total 00:07:07 and totality is crucial for these ideas 00:07:39 getting pretty abstract. 00:07:39 but noone seems to notice this because they get caught up in conveniences of notation that conflict with their "formal" definitions 00:07:50 ok one of these relationships is called c-command 00:07:57 ok 00:08:01 in the earliest definition of c-command: 00:08:22 a c-commands b if a and b are sisters, or if b is dominated by a sister of a 00:08:40 so a c-commands its sisters and everything below them 00:08:44 oh that kind of relationships 00:08:54 yeah. a structural relationship between nodes 00:09:00 yes right k. 00:09:19 but imagine if a is simultaneously sister to b, but also dominated by b 00:09:40 * oklopol imagines 00:09:49 a and b do /not/ c-command one another, because c-command doesn't apply when one item contains the other 00:09:51 PaPba 00:09:55 P being their parent 00:10:04 er.. 00:10:09 wait that doesn't really work for undirected graphs.. 00:10:13 so just ignore it 00:10:31 well we have the following notation for it 00:10:37 [x a [b a]] 00:11:00 where the first item in the brackets is the label for the node that the brackets represents 00:11:03 and the rest are the child nodes 00:11:43 yeah 00:12:04 or lets assume that a and b do c-command one another 00:12:11 ignoring containment for a second 00:12:35 consider [x a [y b [z c a]]] 00:12:45 a and b symmetrically c-command one another 00:13:02 yeah 00:13:05 if only one of x and z directly dominated a, then it wouldn't be symmetric 00:13:12 it'd be asymmetric 00:13:33 hmm, actually i'm not sure i understand, wait a sec. 00:13:41 ok 00:13:46 i can just send you the paper 00:14:22 the parts that deal with this issue are relatively detached from syntax as a whole and deal with some very specific topics so youll understand it. 00:14:36 okay. 00:15:08 i still have a hard time seeing how this could have to do with rooting arbitrary graphs, but i'll try to find time to read it. 00:15:33 no, the part that i found deja vu like is that you were representing different nodes with the same symbols 00:16:05 and that unless you specify this beforehand, it's not apparent that they're different nodes 00:16:06 i see. it was just sexps really. 00:16:33 Sex pee 00:16:41 and one of the reasons that i wrote this paper was because similar things go on in syntax, with precisely the problems that you could expect from having a notation that can be interpreted in different ways. 00:17:07 oklopol: http://www.wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/Formalizing%20Minimalism.pdf 00:17:52 usually you'd explain your notation, and not have that problem 00:18:02 yeah, but this doesnt happen 00:18:25 weird. 00:18:29 sort of like it didnt happen when you said b->c->a->b->... was a tree without first saying that each b was a distinct node :P 00:18:51 anyway the reason i wasn't being clear was because i was sure you already understood it. 00:19:14 ah well. if you start talking mathy to me, i take everything at face value. 00:19:35 yeah, understandable 00:19:39 actually i do that in generally but its especially typical when talking about these things 00:21:16 being pedantic is always a good thing. i just didn't really feel like being more clear because my whole point was just to tell ehird what he said had definite truth in it, just not the exact truth he said it had. 00:21:32 and damn you for linking 00:21:33 * psygnisfive nodes 00:21:37 haha 00:21:37 now i feel i should read it. 00:21:37 :) 00:21:41 * oklopol edges 00:21:48 first you should comment on my site background images 00:22:08 http://www.wellnowwhat.net/ http://www.wellnowwhat.net/Rights_in_the_Post-Governance_Society.html http://www.wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/honors_thesis/ 00:22:31 Can't you just post gay porn? 00:22:50 psygnisfive: that's pretty awesome 00:24:01 the bgs? :) 00:24:10 psygnisfive: I can generate random colours too 00:24:19 actually i didnt generate these 00:24:29 psygnisfive: umm. 00:24:34 they're lines that keep showing up in windows 00:24:34 what page should i start on 00:25:03 some drawing glitch in my computer's window manager or something like that 00:25:12 oklopol: do you mean for this issue of DAGs and trees and such? 00:25:14 gfx card driver 00:25:19 psygnisfive: yes. 00:25:22 its not the driver actually, ehird 00:25:41 eh, I got similar glitches with a driver on x11 00:25:43 because they're bound to windows, in that i can drag the windows around and they follow it 00:25:48 and if i resize the windows they go away 00:25:49 huh 00:25:52 and i can take screenshots 00:25:57 its just some drawing algorithm error 00:26:15 of course if that's written by you, i might want to read the whole of it 00:26:26 then again i probably wouldn't understand it. 00:26:29 oklopol: yes, i wrote the whole thing 00:26:46 well yeah that wasn't really an "if", more like a "seeing as" 00:26:47 you might get it. its not TOO embedded in syntax, and most of what is i explain for completeness 00:26:55 psygnisfive: can you satisfy this amateur typographic fuck by switching to a non-monospaced font? 00:27:24 eh.. start on page 11, "Move, Multiple Dominance, and Linearization" 00:27:29 non-monospaced fonts should never be used 00:27:44 oklopol: yeah but you don't even read, you just connect objects to your brainwave 00:27:44 s 00:27:47 I use actual eyes and stuff 00:27:49 ehird: no. i like the monospacedness. its grungy and gritty and goes nicely with the backgrounds :) 00:28:01 psygnisfive: fine, don't expect me to read your site :P 00:28:06 how about Curlz MT 00:28:07 i dont :P 00:28:08 It's very grungy 00:28:20 failing that comic sans could be a good substitute 00:29:00 (non-monospaced fonts should be killed) 00:29:09 oklopol: shush 00:30:05 neverrr 00:32:13 ais523: http://www.mathrix.org/experimentalAIT/TuringMachine.html 00:32:27 -!- Judofyr has quit. 00:35:09 even people who don't think non-monospaced fonts should be killed often think comic sans should be killed. 00:36:34 curlz mt, man! 00:37:44 oejan: truer words 00:40:07 CURLZ FUCKING MT 00:40:57 * psygnisfive curlz ehird's mt 00:41:03 :o 00:41:36 http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2008/12/15/348-an-imperial-palimpsest-on-polands-electoral-map/ 00:48:18 -!- lolbot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:53:06 -!- oerjan has quit ("Now to conquer the world. In my sleep."). 01:42:47 -!- Aias has changed nick to comex. 01:48:35 psygnisfive: this is a fun read 01:48:45 oh? 01:49:02 i have no idea what the definitions are useful for, but i like reading them :P 01:51:38 lol 01:51:41 which definitions do you mean? 01:53:01 c-commanding mostly, i just started. 01:53:42 most of this is over my head, you constantly refer to basic things i've never heard about 01:53:46 ah well, that section is mostly about the implications that using DAGs for syntax trees has for attempts to linearize the nodes in the tree based on c-command 01:53:51 which basic things? 01:54:42 merge 01:55:29 oh 01:55:46 well 01:55:47 linearize... does that mean ordering? 01:56:09 eh.. yes. linearization is taking a graph and finding some total relation over the graph 01:56:41 yeah okay good 01:56:56 or rather, taking some abstractly /defined/ relation, and finding that relation for some graph 01:57:12 because graphs are basically not linearly ordered 01:57:15 they're just abstract relations 01:57:35 right, right 01:57:36 so if a sentence is a graph, there has to be some unique way of linearizing the words in the graph 01:57:48 ohh 01:57:54 and it has to be a total linearization 01:58:09 there can't be any two words that have no relative linearization 01:58:16 i think i had a crucial epiphany 01:58:22 thank you for that 01:58:24 every word must either come before or after some other word 01:58:34 yes 01:59:03 so if your tree has no inherent directionality, like say a Left-Right tree does, you have to do this linearization some other way 01:59:20 and one of the ideas is that you could do this using asymmetric c-command relationships 01:59:33 yeah was just about to ask 01:59:50 (yes, i did just read about it, but i didn't understand what it was about back then) 01:59:56 :p 02:00:15 i find that everyone i talk to has to ask what linearization means 02:00:16 suddenly i wanna learn more about this 02:00:22 hahaha 02:00:28 well, i can teach you some syntax if you want :) 02:00:34 theres all sorts of shit like this in syntax 02:00:43 scope is another really fascinating issue in syntax 02:01:06 well i'm all for learning all the basics at least 02:01:26 except not now of course, it's 4 am. 02:01:35 theres honestly not much to learn, in terms of the way the theory works 02:01:45 probably not. 02:04:25 anyway, what you meant by linearization would've been clear if i'd understood the graph represented a sentence 02:04:57 well. right now it seems like it should've been perfectly clear even without that info 02:05:14 but i'm very tired, and i can just blame that 02:06:09 i realize now that I didn't use the word "sentence" until page 19 02:06:10 haha 02:06:25 but in the context of syntax, trees = sentences 02:06:26 so 02:09:08 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 02:09:13 ... 02:09:20 that was accidental 02:09:24 was it? 02:09:26 how can we know? 02:09:29 you ARE oklopol 02:09:37 i was reading my book you see 02:09:42 on the keyboard 02:09:49 and suddenly there were texts. 02:13:15 speaking of texts 02:13:43 http://www.malegeneral.com/dongs/src/1229957639477.jpg 02:15:08 Who is this faggot 02:15:13 In his pyjama 02:15:14 it's psygnisfive 02:15:22 psygnisfive, you are a faggot 02:15:48 i would never behave so ridiculously 02:15:54 or look so silly 02:16:10 Or would you? 02:16:16 yes would you? 02:17:27 no. 02:17:37 Let's see on your fetlife profile 02:17:41 actually i have a strong desire to punch people like that in the face 02:17:49 Maybe "Acting like a douche" is amidst it 02:18:28 it most certainly is not sir! 02:18:40 good heavens man, you're mad! 02:19:05 "forced orgasms (tens units, etc.)" 02:19:09 * psygnisfive puts on top hat and saunters off hautilly 02:19:12 What, exactly ten units? 02:19:18 tens unit. 02:19:19 What if it's nine or eleven? 02:19:40 tens = transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulator 02:20:08 Hm. 02:20:12 "Public humiliation" 02:20:19 Acting like a douche could totally do that 02:20:39 acting like a douche isn't humiliating 02:20:43 because you're a douch 02:21:01 it would be humiliating to those you're with. 02:21:28 i'm a douche 02:21:50 are you a douche like that tho? 02:21:57 :) 02:22:05 i'm not sure what kind of person that guy is 02:22:28 looks like a happy dude 02:22:33 i'm pretty happy 02:23:00 i can certainly be humiliating to those i'm with 02:23:21 But are you more humiliating than psygnisfive, though? 02:23:31 am i humiliating at all? 02:23:33 He'll probably hang with you in his fursuit or something. 02:23:39 for one, i may burst into song in pretty much any situation 02:23:42 i certainly do not have a fursuit 02:23:50 WOULD YOU LIKE TO? 02:23:54 fursuiters almost always annoy the fuck out of me 02:24:04 except for the ones im friends with who are hot 02:24:10 "teabagging (joecool)" 02:24:18 :D 02:24:21 Do you only want to teabag this "Joe Cool"? 02:24:36 i have no idea what joecool is 02:24:45 Also is he the teabagger or the teabaggee? 02:25:02 who cares! :D 02:25:33 Joe Cool does. 02:25:44 I think Joe Cool might be the legendary Cool Dude. 02:25:57 With the backward cap and the popped collars. 02:26:34 Ahah! 02:26:34 http://fetlife.com/users/8385 02:26:37 I was right! 02:26:45 Joe Cool does have a backward cap! 02:27:22 Strangely enough, he's not into teabagging Joe Cool 02:27:46 He's only curious about it 02:27:59 "It has my name on it, I wonder how it is!" 02:59:08 o 03:41:14 -!- jix_ has joined. 03:55:10 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:30:52 -!- lolbot has joined. 04:30:57 -!- lolbot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:31:50 -!- lolbot has joined. 04:32:35 .fortune 04:32:35 There are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies and the other is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. -- Charles Anthony Richard Hoare 06:09:54 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:43:50 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 09:08:21 wow, have there seriously been no comments in the last lik 7 hours? 09:08:21 lame 09:18:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:27:51 i certainly do not have a fursuit 09:27:57 neither do i, forsooth 09:28:20 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 09:28:47 that was weird 10:13:44 merry xmas! 10:14:01 (in Sweden and the rest of Scandinavia we celebrate on the 24th) 10:18:40 oerjan, that is true for Norway too isn't it? 10:18:48 yes 10:18:48 I know it is for Sweden and Finland 10:18:54 :) 10:19:53 ooooooooooo 10:19:59 oklopol, ? 10:20:23 Some Finnish xmas song I expect? 10:22:38 ooooooooooo joulu, ooooooooooo joulu 10:23:00 oerjan, is that Norwegian or Finnish? 10:23:09 definitely not norwegian 10:23:12 ah 10:23:19 that would be 10:23:28 åååååååååååå julen, ååååååååååå julen 10:23:38 might work in swedish too? 10:23:40 would be same in Swedish 10:23:41 indeed 10:24:27 * AnMaster listens to some classical music, by Grieg 10:25:18 dum dum dum dum dum dum dum, dum dum dum, dum dum dum, dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum DUM 10:25:56 nah not that one 10:26:08 was "Morning mood" 10:26:32 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 10:26:37 na na na na na na, na na na na na-na-na-na, na na na na na na na na na na... 10:26:53 not "I bergakungens sal" (as I believe the original name is? This CD got English titles...) 10:27:07 I Dovregubbens hall 10:27:30 ah 10:27:36 so that was a Swedish variant then 10:28:11 oerjan, oh also Solveig's song is probably the best piece of music from the Peer Gynt suites. 10:29:54 oerjan, or what do you think 10:30:08 well it's pretty 10:30:17 yes indeed 10:32:11 also, merry christmas 10:32:42 oerjan, God Jul! 10:46:59 god yule! 10:48:26 * oklopol goes off yulin' -> 10:49:16 -!- Mony has joined. 11:07:53 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:15:33 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:38:26 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 11:44:49 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:44:50 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 11:44:52 ah, http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/ has entered into the holiday spirit 11:46:09 I saw it this morning 11:46:11 :) 11:46:28 oh and cya, going to visit grandparents, so away for the rest of the day 11:46:43 bye and still God Jul 12:12:40 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:12:47 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:13:16 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:57:28 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:48:57 Stupid weird europeans. 13:49:01 And your stupid xmas on today 14:00:34 Merry X-my-ass! 14:04:14 xmas is tomorrow, freak retard. 14:04:29 you are an inferior being 14:05:05 technically even here it doesn't start until 5 o'clock iirc 14:05:45 that's when they ring the church bells 14:07:10 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:42:50 -!- lolbot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:46:09 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:53:21 -!- Asztal has joined. 14:59:30 -!- Corun has joined. 15:02:11 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 15:07:04 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:20:52 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:35:21 hi ais523 15:35:52 -!- ehird has set topic: It's christmas eve, unless you're a wacky freak-man in one of those weird-ass European countries, in which case it's still Christmas Eve but you're celebrating today. 15:37:11 i'm being 100% sarcastic and not sarcastic at the same time. <--- I love this line 15:37:52 ais523: sure you do. 16:02:37 -!- Corun has changed nick to JollyRomping. 16:03:59 -!- Judofyr has quit. 16:15:37 -!- Slereah has joined. 16:33:09 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:44:27 52M optbot 16:44:31 those logs be big 16:46:40 -!- JollyRomping has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 16:51:31 -!- sgt_nubbl has joined. 16:52:08 -!- sgt_nubbl has left (?). 17:36:59 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:38:05 -!- thutubot has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:38:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:40:21 -!- ais523|direct has joined. 17:45:46 Spec: that's good, since it allows tunneling over P 17:46:14 hmm... do we have more new people here, or is cpu-jockey someone I know under a new nick? 17:46:25 new 17:46:31 (b) 17:46:34 (rainfuck) 17:46:38 ah, everyone loves Brainfuck 17:46:44 with good reason 17:46:45 <3 17:47:02 i'm thinking about writing a bf interpreter in asm 17:47:07 with the idea of selfmodifying code 17:47:09 -!- Corun has joined. 17:47:09 Well, it is easy to learn and reasonably easy to use 17:47:12 and some math tricks 17:47:38 rainfuck might be interesting as well, in theory 17:47:56 that is, push machine code directly proportinal to input to the stack, and jmp *esp 17:57:06 ^bf ++++++++[->++++>++++++++>++++++++++++>++++++++++++++<<<<]>>++.>>++.<+.++++++++.>----.<---.>+++++++.<<---.++++++++.<<.>>--.>--.<<<.>>+.+++.>+++.<----------. 17:57:07 Brainfu?G 17:57:15 oerjan: ? 17:57:25 typo near the end? 17:57:25 BRAINFUG 17:57:35 a bit before the end 17:58:08 ^bf ++++++++[->++++>++++++++>++++++++++++>++++++++++++++<<<<]>>++.>>++.<+.++++++++.>----.<---.>+++++++.<---.++++++++.<<.>>--.>--.<<<.>>+.+++.>+++.<----------. 17:58:09 Brainfuck is jmvc 17:58:23 * oerjan is cursed. CURSED, i tell you 17:58:38 jmvc 17:58:39 jmvc 17:58:39 jmvc 17:58:39 jmvc 17:58:41 btw, I actually got gcc-bf to do something useful 17:58:50 although it fails at just about everything 17:58:56 ^bf ++++++++[->++++>++++++++>++++++++++++>++++++++++++++<<<<]>>++.>>++.<+.++++++++.>----.<---.>+++++++.<---.++++++++.<<.>>--.>--.<<<.>>+++.+++.>+++.<----------. 17:58:56 Brainfuck is love 17:58:57 I managed to get as far as the hello in hello world 17:59:03 because I was doing the hello and the world differently 17:59:21 (pointers to heap work atm, pointers to stack do I think but can't be used due to a different bug) 18:09:03 ^bf ++++++++[->++++>+<<]>+>[++++++++<.>] 18:09:04 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 18:21:33 ^bf ,. 18:21:33 + 18:24:38 o_O 18:25:33 ^bf ,. 18:25:33 + 18:25:36 ^bf ,,. 18:25:36 + 18:25:39 ^bf ,,,. 18:25:39 + 18:25:53 ^bf +,. 18:26:02 ^bf ,. 18:26:03 18:26:10 curiouser 18:26:53 ^bf . 18:27:13 ^bf ,.!? 18:27:14 ? 18:27:18 ^bf ,. 18:27:18 ? 18:27:34 ^bf ,.! 18:28:32 ^bf +[,.]!Hello, world! 18:28:33 Hello, world! 18:28:40 ^bf ,. 18:28:40 . 18:29:03 ^bf ,. 18:29:04 . 18:29:05 ^bf ,. 18:29:05 . 18:29:38 ^bf >+[<,.>] 18:29:38 lo, world! 18:29:45 :D 18:29:55 ^bf >+[<,.>] 18:29:55 lo, world! 18:29:55 wtf? 18:30:10 ^bf +[,.] 18:30:10 >] 18:30:10 it must have old input from somewhere 18:30:17 yeah 18:30:34 ^bf +[,.] 18:30:34 ve old input from somewhere 18:30:35 wait a minute 18:30:40 oh shit 18:30:43 the old input is the previous programs 18:30:48 no, it isn't 18:30:48 cpu-jockey: no, look! 18:30:50 it's old comments 18:30:54 ^bf +[,.] 18:30:54 omments 18:31:07 ..........Hello, world! 18:31:10 ^bf +[,.] 18:31:10 oh 18:31:10 Hello, world! 18:32:03 oh right 18:33:04 test a bit here 18:33:21 argle bargle, glop glyp glip 18:33:28 and about here 18:33:36 ^bf +[,.] 18:33:37 here 18:33:44 ^bf ++++++++++[,.] 18:33:45 glyp glip 18:34:32 it seems to write each comment over the previous ones 18:35:05 ^bf ,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,. 18:35:06 es Anthony Richard Hoare 18:35:11 ? 18:35:18 and if there is no ! in the ^bf program, it takes the input from the partially overwritten line 18:35:28 well, that doesn't explain my last test 18:35:32 although it does explain the other results 18:35:35 ais523|direct: sure it does 18:35:52 that's probably from the youngest comment that was long enough 18:35:57 ^bf ,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+. 18:35:57 18:36:03 oh, of course 18:36:14 ^bf ,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++. 18:36:15 -0.-0 18:36:17 each comment just overwrites the line, probably terminating with zero or something 18:36:24 yes, I'm trying to get rid of the 0 terminators 18:37:47 ^bf ,[[[[.,],],],] 18:37:47 get rid of the 0 terminators 18:39:14 I think once it reads a 0, it realises it has EOF 18:39:26 yeah 18:39:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:39:51 so you only get from the end of the bf program to the first 0 18:40:38 those A's up there may mean you actually got past the whole line and into some other territory? 18:40:54 er wait 18:41:03 it must have just been a very old long comment 18:41:21 it's probably zero outside the input line 18:42:17 oh you thought the detection happened on the _output_? 18:42:20 hm maybe 18:42:58 ^bf +++++[,+.] 18:42:59 uif!efufdujpo!ibqqfofe!po!uif!`pvuqvu`@ ... 18:43:10 ah yes it was 18:43:21 the input is not checked for EOF it seems 18:43:30 no, I think once , returns 0 it always returns 0 18:43:41 all the evidence so far points to that 18:43:45 oh that may be so 18:43:53 ^bf +++++[,+.] 18:43:54 tp ... 18:44:01 yeah seems you are right 18:45:28 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.] 18:45:28 e and into some other territory? 18:45:40 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.] 18:45:49 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.] 18:45:50 .,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++. 18:46:02 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.] 18:46:02 ,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++. 18:46:11 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.] 18:46:11 f someone links a C program as well they should be careful if they plan to use ncurses 18:46:35 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.] 18:46:35 if they plan to use ncurses 18:46:43 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.] 18:46:43 id3tag -jack -kate -libas 18:46:56 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.] 18:46:56 ... 18:47:03 -!- Slereah has quit. 18:47:06 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.] 18:47:06 ... 18:47:14 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.] 18:47:14 ... 18:47:33 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 18:47:47 hm i guess i'm starting to be cut off 18:48:03 ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. 18:48:03 Hello World!. 18:48:06 :D 18:48:48 ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++..+++.<++.<<+++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. 18:48:48 4ejjm6 18:56:42 -!- Slereah has joined. 19:04:54 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:38:51 -!- ais523|direct has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:52:25 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 19:56:19 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:01:07 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 20:03:46 -!- mib_8oomfc has joined. 20:03:51 Face palm of the day: 20:03:51 ehird@rutian:~$ sudo chown -R www-data:www-data /var/ 20:03:55 Help. 20:03:57 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 20:04:02 :x 20:04:50 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:06:09 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Client Quit). 20:32:26 -!- Corun has joined. 20:44:25 mib_8oomfc, how could that possible be difficult to fix? 20:58:23 ^bf +[,.] 20:58:23 , how could that possible be difficult to fix? 20:58:31 huh 20:58:37 nice one 20:58:43 ^bf ++[,.] 20:58:43 how could that possible be difficult to fix? 20:58:49 ^bf ++[,.]!t 20:58:49 t 20:59:12 mib_8oomfc, hm 20:59:15 tricky one 20:59:18 are you ehird? 20:59:41 I suggest reinstalling packages if they will restore permissions to their own files 21:00:05 depending on what distro you use there may be special tools to compare permissions to that packages say should be used 21:00:17 I remember suse had such a tool ages ago when I used it 21:00:41 similar scripts could be written easily if your distro use something like /var/db/pkg 21:00:42 or such 21:00:51 sed 21:01:50 freebsd has mtree 21:01:58 same for other *bsd I think 21:02:05 that could be used to restore it somewhat 21:02:43 files from ports, if they are there and not in /usr/local, may need clean up in different ways 21:04:34 Oh, because they're all supposed to be owned by different accounts? 21:08:03 * oerjan wonders if anything would _really_ go wrong if he just set all of it to root:root 21:08:57 Possibly a webserver would be unable to read its files 21:09:13 I think 21:09:19 mm 21:11:13 ^bf -[.-] 21:11:13 ÿþýüûúùø÷öõôóòñðïîíìëêéèçæåäãâáàßÞÝÜÛÚÙØ×ÖÕÔÓÒÑÐÏÎÍÌËÊÉÈÇÆÅÄÃÂÁÀ¿¾½¼»º¹¸·¶µ´³²±°¯®­¬«ª©¨§¦¥¤£¢¡ Ÿžœ›š™˜—–•”“’‘ŽŒ‹Š‰ˆ‡†…„ƒ‚€~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:987654321 ... 21:11:48 just what i needed :p my kbd layout is broken right now 21:15:18 ^bf +[.+] 21:15:18 .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~€‚ƒ„…†‡ˆ‰Š‹ŒŽ‘’“”•–—˜™š›œžŸ ¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬­®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏ ... 21:25:55 Uh, that's the strangeity. 21:26:09 The brainfuck cat input thing, I mean. 21:26:33 ^bf +[,.] 21:26:33 uck cat input thing, I mean. 21:27:16 looks pretty obvious what it does now 21:27:25 ^bf +[,.] 21:27:25 ty obvious what it does now 21:27:28 hmm. 21:27:29 ^bf +[,.] 21:27:29 ty obvious what it does now 21:27:41 Yes, but it should see the \0 at the end of the program and stop reading input there already. 21:28:03 -!- Judofyr has joined. 21:28:08 Well, maybe there's an extra 1+ somewhere; it does need to skip past the ! in the "^bf ...!foo" form. 21:32:50 an exploit in brainfuck would be cool 21:44:17 cpu-jockey, look for exploits in PSOX? 21:44:24 * Sgeo ducks for cover 21:44:50 * oerjan swats Sgeo. there is no escape. -----### 21:47:58 nah, i was thinking more of a precompiled interpreter in C with a known virtual address for the tape with no boundrary checks accessible over the network .. or by pigfly express 22:06:46 -!- bsmntbombgirl has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:22:14 Hi thar! 22:22:48 my solution to the permissions shtuff: rebuild computer. 22:22:49 Hi AnMaster 22:23:00 I'm rebuilding rutian; that's why I'm on mibbit--no bouncer 22:23:02 Which did you reccomend? 22:31:13 AnMaster: ping 22:45:07 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 22:50:56 mib_8oomfc, hi 22:51:07 recommend what? 22:51:15 as for rebuild: what about stuff on the system 22:51:19 did you back that up 22:51:27 as for me I recommended reinstalling all packages 22:51:37 or on *bsd using mtree 22:51:42 or on suse using it's fixup tool 22:51:53 I think redhat has such a tool too 22:51:58 don't know name 22:52:03 AnMaster: recommend bouncer 22:52:08 ah 22:52:10 znc is what I use 22:52:11 also, I backed up the data beforehand, yes. 22:52:19 AnMaster: znc seemed a little, er, bloated. 22:52:21 quite flexible and such 22:52:27 mib_8oomfc, makes you think of emacs? 22:52:30 Does a bouncer really require a dynamic runtime plugin mechanism? 22:52:32 I mean really. 22:53:10 well I like znc, but does an editor need an advanced lisp based scripting language? 22:53:19 no. that's why I don't use emacs 22:53:44 mib_8oomfc, I like how znc handles multiple networks: as separate users 22:53:47 your mom needs a scripting language 22:53:50 also i need sleep -> 22:53:55 AnMaster: That doesn't make sense. elaborate? 22:54:31 every program requires a dynamic runtime plugin mechanism, so it can more easily use its broken implementation of half of common lisp 22:54:33 mib_8oomfc, last I checked, some bnc, not sure if it was psybnc or some other, mixed the network up, like multiplexed per user 22:54:36 if you see what I mean 22:54:42 it make work fine in irssi or such 22:54:45 I only use Freenode. 22:54:56 but it is a pain in GUI clients that allow you to have a tree view 22:55:03 with network and channels 22:55:07 such as xchat 22:55:17 mib_8oomfc, well I use loads of networks, so for me it was a major issue 22:56:47 flargl 22:56:50 mib_8oomfc, idea: try znc out, see what you think 22:56:52 * mib_8oomfc wipes box 22:56:55 may be worth it 22:56:57 :) 22:56:58 AnMaster: yeah, once I rewipe 22:57:06 again? 22:57:09 what did you do 22:57:12 no, I haven't done it yet 22:57:18 anyhoo, most likely candidate atm is ezbounce 22:57:27 mib_8oomfc, haven't tried that one 22:57:46 but well, I tried 2 or 3 before znc, and znc did all I wanted 22:57:48 fun fact: the base ubuntu server install includes the package "laptop-detect". 22:57:49 and more indeed 22:57:51 -!- Judofyr has quit. 22:57:54 you know, just in case you're running a server on a laptop. 22:57:55 it has to know. 22:57:58 mib_8oomfc, crack 22:58:01 y 22:58:08 what 22:58:24 including that package on server edition is cracky 22:58:33 i don't think that word means what you think it means 22:58:40 AnMaster: also, libx11 22:58:44 because all servers are desktops 22:58:45 mib_8oomfc, true, but it does in another channel I'm in 22:58:54 mib_8oomfc, is *vnc there? 22:58:58 no 22:59:04 it's for ssh x11 forwarding, prolly 22:59:10 apt-get purge aptitude dhcp3-client dhcp3-common eject laptop-detect \ libatm1 libnewt0.52 libx11-6 libx11-data 22:59:14 ^ Current plan. 22:59:28 mib_8oomfc, and cracky in this case means "coder/developer was on crack when he coded/decided/* that" 22:59:36 heh 23:00:00 you dislike aptitude? 23:00:00 the dependencies in ubuntu/debian are a little strange 23:00:05 AnMaster: it's useless 23:00:10 oh? ok 23:00:12 apt-get autoremove does its auto-dependencierating 23:00:18 and its terminal graphical interface is crap 23:00:40 well I don't like *.deb based very much so 23:00:47 * AnMaster prefers rolling-release distros 23:00:49 anyway, the dependencies are weird - when I remove aptitude, it says that perl is now unused, and autoremove gets rid of it 23:00:54 but debconf requires perl 23:00:58 such as arch and gentoo, much easier to maintain and upgrade 23:00:58 so I then have to manually install perl again 23:01:04 even though /usr/bin/perl is still there 23:01:13 AnMaster: rolling-release is possible with debian. 23:01:14 heh 23:01:23 is /usr/bin/perl related to /etc/alternatives? 23:01:27 if you apt-get upgrade often, then dist-upgrade is just something you do every now and then 23:01:29 on debian stuff 23:01:29 and no, I don't think so. 23:01:47 AnMaster: i think it fails to remove /usr/bin/perl because the thing that's removing it is running on it. 23:01:51 haha 23:01:56 that is just pure insane 23:02:05 can't you select packages at install time? 23:02:14 I mean in some sort of install wizard or whatever 23:02:15 -!- Corun has joined. 23:02:16 AnMaster: slicehost just put an image on the thing 23:02:21 but I believe so, yes 23:02:21 ah right 23:02:53 and since its ssh host thing has changed, I get a nice heap of alarmism from ssh 23:03:01 * AnMaster got 6 cds with classical music this xmas, and a few other things 23:03:10 (@@@@@@@@@SOMEONE IS PROBABLY MAN IN THE MIDDLING YOU AND EATING YOUR BABIES WHILE STEALING YOUR DOG@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@) 23:03:18 ssh I assume! 23:03:29 damn I meant: "Dr. ssh I presume!" 23:03:57 very bad joke yes :P 23:04:45 AnMaster: also, I'm generally not going to use the ubuntu packages 23:04:48 ((for up-to-dateness)) 23:04:55 I'm going to do ./configure && make 23:04:56 then sudo checkinstall 23:05:04 which runs make install, and analyzes what files it installs 23:05:11 and builds a .deb out of that, which it adds to dpkg 23:05:21 end result you can remove it and upgrade it cleanly using the standard tools 23:06:27 which is nice. 23:06:46 another nice thing this xmas: 45-pieces screwdriver set with some of those strange variants, such as torx and such 23:06:58 heh 23:07:17 ... it's just an hour til real christmas. 23:07:19 Surreal. 23:07:23 mib_8oomfc, not here! 23:07:30 I said real. 23:07:50 anyway it is 00:06 the 25th here now 23:07:51 :P 23:07:58 * AnMaster watches mib_8oomfc's pain 23:08:06 Heh 23:09:02 This system is quite nicely stripped down, post-cleanup. 23:09:13 Around 145 installed packages, including the kernel, every single library, etc. 23:15:08 [ehird:~] % ssh eso-std.org ehird@eso-std.org's password: Linux rutian 2.6.16.29-xen #1 SMP Sun Sep 30 04:00:13 UTC 2007 x86_64 ehird@rutian:~$ 23:15:09 Woohoo 23:15:17 Speedy too! 23:16:02 Hokay. 23:16:05 Next up: web server! 23:16:09 Now watch AnMaster recommend lighttpd 23:16:24 I do like it, but I heard ngnix was good too 23:16:30 I assume you will use it 23:16:38 Actually, this time I'm giving Cherokee a shot. http://www.cherokee-project.com/ 23:16:45 It supports more of what I want than nginx. 23:16:48 ANd it's faster(!) 23:16:57 it's ridiculously fast 23:16:59 .com? 23:17:09 hm 23:17:34 eh, everyone uses .com 23:17:42 it's GPL 23:20:00 AnMaster: it's also modular, you'll like that :P 23:20:03 and uses epoll and stuff. 23:22:50 * mib_8oomfc sudo checkinstall, BAM! 23:24:04 wtf 23:24:06 /bin/mkdir: cannot create directory `/var/www': No such file or directory 23:24:32 -!- Corun has quit ("DRINK SOMETHING"). 23:24:42 hm 23:24:56 it was called with -p 23:25:01 so it's not that the parent doesn't exist 23:25:03 test -z ""/var/www/images"" || /bin/mkdir -p ""/var/www/images"" /bin/mkdir: cannot create directory `/var/www': No such file or directory 23:25:19 interesting 23:25:26 no I'm not sure of the cause 23:25:33 more like wtfening 23:25:37 the double quotes *does* look weird 23:25:49 mib_8oomfc, what about permissions? 23:25:49 nah, in bash quoting that's irrelevant. 23:25:55 also, *do 23:25:57 AnMaster: permissions are fine 23:25:58 this is as root 23:26:03 mount? 23:26:08 mounted read only or such I mean 23:26:15 no 23:26:20 strace 23:26:25 no :P 23:26:28 that is the last resort 23:26:31 and it will always work 23:26:34 in such a case 23:26:46 strace should easily be able to find the cause 23:27:05 AnMaster: Or, I could ask #debian if mkdir -p should ever give that error 23:27:11 I would guess it is a errno failure 23:27:16 Well, I couldn't, because they block mibbit. 23:27:16 so it uses the wrong errno 23:27:22 Because they're stupid. 23:27:25 if you see what I mean? 23:27:33 AnMaster: I doubt it.. 23:27:37 strace will be the best way 23:27:41 ehird@rutian:~/cherokee-0.11.5$ sudo /bin/mkdir -p ""/var/www/images"" ehird@rutian:~/cherokee-0.11.5$ 23:27:44 wfm 23:28:32 mib_8oomfc, yes something was very weird there 23:28:36 were you using sudo or su? 23:28:41 when you hit the error 23:28:54 if it was sudo I would try running that script using sudo su - 23:28:56 then run it 23:29:12 sudo. 23:29:17 I'll read their makefile. 23:29:20 (Because I hate myself. 23:29:21 using su may work 23:29:21 ) 23:29:29 I had sudo mess up before 23:29:43 This works without checkinstall. 23:29:46 or if it was with checkinstall, it might have caused it 23:29:47 Maybe it's checkinstall's monitoring. 23:30:00 I could manually 'make www'. 23:30:02 mib_8oomfc, I was comming to the same conclusion at the same time 23:30:14 how does checkinstall work? 23:30:19 a LD_PRELOAD? 23:30:24 Wish I knew. 23:30:27 or install to a fake root prefix? 23:30:38 http://www.asic-linux.com.mx/~izto/checkinstall/ 23:30:46 ah probably fake root 23:30:59 idea what could happen if the latter: mkdir -p creates in fake root, looks in real root sees the directory wasn't created 23:31:02 goes mad 23:31:05 that is just a wild idea 23:31:14 test -z ""/usr/share/cherokee/icons/"" || /bin/mkdir -p ""/usr/share/cherokee/icons/"" /bin/mkdir: cannot create directory `/usr/share/cherokee': No such file or directory 23:31:19 wtf 23:31:31 mib_8oomfc, what do you think of my last idea? 23:31:36 * mib_8oomfc considers F-ing checkinstall 23:31:38 AnMaster: possible. 23:34:14 I wonder what is up with it. 23:36:40 AnMaster: By the way, I can't su. 23:36:42 I can sudo su though. 23:38:17 mib_8oomfc, ubuntu fail 23:38:19 is the cause of that 23:38:26 as far as I have heard it is easy to fix 23:38:38 no. 23:38:40 it's not failure/ 23:38:44 I specifically did it that way. 23:38:46 For security. 23:38:57 (Root has no password, it is completely locked: you cannot log in as root.) 23:39:01 And that's Good. 23:39:04 how is it more secure? if su already needs you to be in wheel group 23:39:10 and ssh is set to deny root 23:39:19 AnMaster: because it's simply: you can't log in as root, period. 23:39:22 It's an extra barrier. 23:39:27 And "sudo su -" works. 23:39:33 (And doesn't involve memorizing a root password.) 23:42:39 AnMaster: so how do you use strace 23:43:05 strace /bin/foo 23:43:16 not sure how to check it together with checkinstall 23:43:41 AnMaster: I mean use it, once I do that. 23:43:52 here is an example http://rafb.net/p/iwCj9b44.html 23:44:02 it is just a debugging tool to see system calles 23:44:04 calls* 23:44:10 it can help see what call failed 23:44:15 and figure out the cause of the failure 23:44:18 what it was doing 23:44:20 Eh, ok. 23:44:23 like reading in the wrong place 23:44:30 such as I suggested above 23:44:33 AnMaster: it'll give like 50 pages of output, I bet. 23:44:52 mib_8oomfc, well for checkinstall you probably need to use trace children option 23:44:57 how 23:45:00 -f -- follow forks, -ff -- with output into separate files 23:45:19 strace -h 23:45:24 for more details :) 23:45:32 it is quite easy to use once you get the hang of it 23:46:02 mib_8oomfc, and IMO one of the best debugging tools for when system tools behave strange, gdb is better when you know what to look for in the source 23:46:08 Neat, 50 pages of useless output. 23:46:10 Awesome......... 23:46:15 And, of course, checkinstall needs my input. 23:46:18 mib_8oomfc, power of grep :D 23:46:19 But I can't see what it wants. 23:46:20 AWESOME 23:46:23 and 23:46:28 you can redirect to separate file 23:46:39 Yeah okay, how 23:46:41 -o file -- send trace output to FILE instead of stderr 23:46:58 ehird@rutian:~/cherokee-0.11.5$ ls -lh yawn -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 862K Dec 24 23:46 yawn 23:47:16 strace -o yawn -ff checkinstall 23:47:19 or something like that 23:47:22 yes. 23:47:25 strace does *NOT* work across sudo 23:47:31 I did 'sudo strace' 23:47:33 so you need to run strace on the root side too 23:47:38 mib_8oomfc, that should work 23:48:02 Bah, eff this. There'll be a simple thing I'm missing. 23:48:24 well sure, I just find strace very useful 23:48:33 it is a great tool when used correctly 23:48:35 -!- jix_ has quit ("..."). 23:48:57 I'll stick to my falutin' high-level languages. 23:48:58 gdb, strace, valgrind there are a few I can't live without when programming/debugging. and gdb and strace even on servers 23:49:12 since you want to analyse core dumps and such 23:49:19 in case something fails 23:52:13 * mib_8oomfc wonders what to do. 23:52:23 Hmm. 23:52:27 well strace could work 23:52:28 I will install a bouncer while I think. 23:52:40 mib_8oomfc, try them out 23:52:44 there are several nice ones 23:52:51 znc, ezbounce and so on 23:52:58 The options as I see them are ezbounce, znc and miau. 23:53:03 comex uses miau and it seems to be buggy. 23:53:09 miau I haven't heard of before 23:53:10 znc seems a bit bloated for my tastes. 23:53:14 So I guess I will try ezbounce. 23:53:23 because I use znc? 23:53:40 no. 23:53:45 but it looked a bit bloated. 23:53:48 hm ok 23:55:08 AnMaster: does znc offer the only reason I use a bouncer: it will log certain (not all) channels you specify, and, when you reconnect, it will play it back 23:55:17 i.e., send you all the messages/parts/joins/nicks/whatever since you left 23:55:21 then erase that log 23:55:26 so apart from timestamps, you get a "continuous" window 23:55:29 mib_8oomfc, it has away log, I never checked if it can exclude channels or not 23:55:30 it's really great 23:55:34 since I want to log all channels 23:55:39 AnMaster: does it play it back in that manner, though? 23:55:41 it also has full log, again I never checked details 23:55:49 also, I dont' want to log high-traffic channels like #haskell 23:55:49 mib_8oomfc, it plays it back when you reconnect 23:55:49 but 23:55:51 with timestamps 23:55:55 AnMaster: with timestamps? 23:55:55 How? 23:56:00 timestamps are added to the front of the line 23:56:03 Ew. 23:56:04 like: 23:56:15 Like. 23:56:16 [12:00] rest of line here 23:56:23 can you disable that? 23:56:27 with the nick of the person in the normal place 23:56:34 mib_8oomfc, think so, but I want it that way 23:56:44 so I'm not sure 23:56:57 but you probably can by /msg *away foo 23:57:00 or something like that 23:57:10 yes it uses /msg *status /msg *whatever and so on 23:57:13 with that * 23:57:17 for controlling functions 23:57:17 ...really? 23:57:19 Why? 23:57:31 Why not a special command, as in /quote ZnC 23:57:33 *ZNC 23:57:49 http://rafb.net/p/3rKuw640.html 23:57:56 mib_8oomfc, that works too 23:58:01 iirc 23:58:11 yep it does 23:58:33 <*away> Commands: away [-quiet], back [-quiet], delete , ping, show, save, enabletimer, disabletimer, settimer , timer 23:58:33 hm 23:58:34 nice 23:58:39 oh wait 23:58:41 that is auto away 23:58:43 not away log 23:58:51 * AnMaster checks what module is the right one 23:59:05 http://en.znc.in/wiki/Modules 23:59:09 I hate software like this. 23:59:21 "Our core program does nothing! You have to trawl through our huge module list and pick them out. SO ELEGANT" 23:59:38 mib_8oomfc, hm I actually like it that way 23:59:46 ircds where you can configure what you want exactly 23:59:57 I know an ircd that even has server-server linking as a module 23:59:58 :) 2008-12-25: 00:00:11 AnMaster: that doesn't excuse putting core functionality in modules. 00:00:44 mib_8oomfc, I swear there are more modules than when I last read that page you linked.... 00:01:16 some are not included in core package hm 00:01:19 I should write my own damn bouncer. 00:01:26 And every piece of software. 00:01:27 mib_8oomfc, sounds nice :) 00:01:28 I can't trust others. 00:01:37 They suck. :P 00:02:06 I used to have my own bouncer, but znc was easier, and had what I wanted, rather than coding the missing features myself I changed to znc 00:02:17 Happy xmas. 00:02:21 -!- mib_8oomfc has set topic: Real christmas. 00:02:34 mib_8oomfc, happy day after xmas 00:02:36 miau is very simple, one network only (I use a script to launch multiple miaus) 00:02:43 -!- AnMaster has set topic: Real christmas | The day after the real one. 00:02:58 comex, ew 00:03:21 comex: does it do the playback? 00:03:34 mib_: yes, it has a "quicklog" 00:03:39 explain 00:03:51 mib_8oomfc, znc does playback on every channel, I'm not sure if you can turn it off for some channels, but it may be quite possible 00:04:09 * AnMaster looks in the web UI 00:04:15 when you log in, it replays the quicklog. I don't remember how configurable it is 00:04:29 comex: on the original channel? 00:04:40 yes 00:05:21 the thing is, IMO irc bouncing isn't exactly _hard_. when the user is connected, you do just forward everything. when they disconnect, log everything you get from the server. when they reconnect, send the log to them and erase it. 00:05:46 mib_8oomfc, znc can do that easily 00:05:49 oh and it does support multiplec onnections (although I assume all others do as well) 00:05:57 what I'm not sure is if it is per channel 00:05:59 as you requested 00:06:03 why do you need a frobtapulous perl modulized C++ elegant blaaaaah thing just to do that 00:06:17 mib_8oomfc, you *CAN* turn off the timestamps 00:06:18 it seems 00:06:24 comex: what about that weird away bug 00:06:25 by setting the timestamp format string to empty 00:06:27 :D 00:06:46 mib_8oomfc, you can disable that 00:06:50 i should, just lazy :p 00:06:50 mib_8oomfc, so that issue is solved 00:06:50 comex: neat. 00:06:53 i bet i could write a bouncer that makes me happy in like 50 lines of Haskell 00:07:06 do it then 00:07:13 not now :P 00:07:34 mib_8oomfc, one thing I like with znc is that you can make it automatically add/remove channels to the "auto join on connect" list if you want 00:07:39 that is configurable of course 00:07:47 AnMaster: but my client does that 00:07:50 :P 00:08:03 the bouncer should: 00:08:08 - play back things it saw when disconnected 00:08:21 - when it gets disconnected, reconnect, send out what commands you've put in its config, and join channels it was in 00:08:24 'sit 00:08:32 mib_8oomfc, znc can do those two 00:08:38 there is the perform module for the second 00:08:39 to be honest, I could probably write _everything_ I want in 50 lines of haskell 00:08:42 I use it to auto-oper up 00:08:45 on another network 00:08:49 for example 00:09:11 away can do the first 00:09:18 so yes znc can do those 00:09:25 and it will auto reconnect 00:09:29 i'll go with miau for now 00:09:30 it seems ko 00:09:31 ok 00:09:41 I haven't used the nickserv module with znc since I use other strange services 00:09:45 account based and such 00:10:10 --disable-ascii-art Disables fancy ASCII banner miau prints at start-up and when a client conencts to miau. 00:10:16 haha 00:10:17 that kind of thing is why I hated psybnc :P 00:10:25 mib_8oomfc, znc doesn't have such a thing 00:10:29 PSYCHOID AND THE MOST COOL LAM3RS GROUP EFNET 00:10:33 i know it by heart 00:10:39 ouch 00:10:41 that one HURT 00:10:43 I hated psybnc for some other reason, can't remember what it was exactly 00:10:45 BADLY 00:10:55 it confused my client :( 00:11:01 AnMaster: it prints that after it gives you the 1337 ascii art of "psybnc" when you start it up 00:11:13 mib_8oomfc, still I suggest you try several bouncers, including ezbounce and znc 00:11:33 I'll use this until I write my own bouncer... tomorrow. :-P 00:11:44 It occurs to me I could just start writing it now. 00:11:57 mib_8oomfc, as for znc starting I think it prints "starting znc\nloading modules\n forking into background" or something like that 00:12:00 a few lines of status 00:12:29 i shall call my bouncer bbbbounce 00:12:38 B4 for short. 00:12:46 mib_8oomfc, from the openbsd release song 00:12:48 for 3.9 00:12:50 I assume 00:12:52 pronounced "BU-BU-BU-BOUNCE" 00:12:55 AnMaster: er, no? 00:13:15 If you think I'd quote an openbsd release song you don't know me very well :P 00:13:17 mib_8oomfc, err they said "bu-bu-bu-bounce him on your knee" in that one 00:13:25 Eh. 00:13:27 so that is what everyone will think 00:13:36 sorry about that 00:13:43 Yes, because other people will know about this :-P 00:13:56 mib_8oomfc, 100% so far did :P 00:14:03 I meant, my bouncer 00:14:13 I'll be surprised if it leaves rutian/pastie.org 00:14:19 ah 00:14:35 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 00:16:09 mib_8oomfc, 0.6 mm screwhead rocks, yeah tiny indeed 00:16:18 lol. 00:16:25 yes there is one here 00:16:27 like that 00:16:28 heh, my bouncer will report server disconnections weirdly: 00:16:34 oh? 00:16:47 some nethack-like phrase? 00:16:56 :b4!b4@b4 PRIVMSG yourname :stuff here 00:17:05 where b4!b4@b4 doesn't actually exist, of course. 00:17:15 that would be seriously confusing 00:17:25 actually 00:17:28 that is what znc does 00:17:29 AnMaster: the reason it has ! and @ is to account for irc parsers 00:17:31 so they don't trip up 00:17:32 it messages from *status 00:17:34 saying: 00:17:34 actually, it'll be !n=b4 00:17:43 AnMaster: right, but *status has a reasonable host name there 00:17:44 and stuff 00:17:45 I assume. 00:17:48 and actually exists 00:17:50 (you can send to it) 00:17:59 *status!znc@znc.in 00:18:02 from thgat 00:18:03 that* 00:18:19 :*b4*!n=b4@b4 PRIVMSG :Disconnected from server, reconnecting... 00:18:33 sounds quite sane 00:18:45 it looks very similar to the znc one 00:18:56 I think it says: "Lost connection to server. Reconnecting..." 00:18:59 or something like that 00:19:17 don't remember on the top of my head (from the top? which is the English idiom?) 00:19:45 off the top 00:19:50 right 00:21:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_License 00:21:26 I want to use this 00:22:01 in fact, I'm going to use it 00:22:19 I mean, why not? 00:22:25 "Aside from rhyming, the Poetic License is unique in its use of the first person, rather than passive legalese form, as well as the assurance of best effort. Many such licenses specifically distinguish between text and software, while the Poetic License may be applied to any work. Unlike other BSD-styled licenses, which explicitly require the copyright notice and 'this' notice to appear in all copies 00:22:25 of software and documentation, the Poetic License is vague as to the condition upon which these rights are granted. 'These rights, on this notice, rely' implies that the notice must remain in all copies, shared and/or modified." 00:22:25 hm 00:22:29 there may be issues there 00:22:41 Eh; I'm not planning to test this in court. 00:22:59 AnMaster: If the DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO PUBLIC LICENSE, VERSION 2 has been testified to probably be valid in court by Debian lawyers, I'm sure this will to 00:23:03 1) assurance of best effort 2) the Poetic License is vague as to the condition upon which these rights are granted 00:23:07 (It has one clause, 1. You just DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO) 00:23:22 mib_8oomfc, it has been found valid in a court? 00:23:23 heh ok 00:23:26 no 00:23:33 but the debian lawyers said they thought it would be valid 00:23:37 ah 00:23:40 which is pretty much all the gpl has had until recently too 00:26:08 haskell is delicious 00:27:18 *Scheme 00:27:27 no, haskell. 00:28:14 Haskell is bad. 00:28:56 yeah cuz monads are sooo complex 00:29:23 Also it has an ugly syntax. 00:29:31 * Slereah <3 parenthesises 00:29:45 Haskell's syntax is beautiful, maybe you're just bad at it. 00:30:16 I find infix more readable, especially with things like `isPrefixOf` 00:30:28 It's not about readability 00:30:32 It's about beauty :o 00:30:38 Haskell's syntax is beautiful 00:30:49 what you're saying is equivalent to 00:30:54 Slereah: scheme sucks, there's too many parentheses 00:30:57 i'd mess them up!! 00:31:00 uglyyyyyyyy 00:31:59 Don't diss scheme bro 00:32:41 Don't diss Haskell. 00:42:26 -!- mib_8oomfc has quit (Client Quit). 00:48:06 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:59:46 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 01:36:14 -!- calamous has joined. 02:42:35 -!- calamous has quit ("Leaving"). 04:50:26 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:54:40 -!- Corun has joined. 06:13:35 -!- Corun has quit ("YES, NO W:ET."). 06:16:38 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to bsmntbombgirl. 06:45:08 -!- moozilla has joined. 06:46:08 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:13:02 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:24:23 -!- Corun has joined. 07:35:34 this shit is ridiculous 07:35:37 oops wrong window 07:43:07 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:04:04 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 10:34:37 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out). 10:54:31 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:05:42 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 12:10:35 -!- jix has joined. 13:25:18 -!- ais523|direct has joined. 14:35:28 heh 14:35:40 * ais523|direct wonders what AnMaster is hehing at 14:35:48 some stuff above 14:35:58 anyway hi ais523|direct 14:36:10 hi, and merry Christmas if it's today for you 14:36:12 it is for me 14:36:18 it was yesterday for me 14:36:26 we celebrate on the 24th here 14:36:44 yes, I know many countries celebrate on the 24th, wasn't sure whether you did or not 14:36:46 same in rest of Scandinavia 14:37:23 ais523|direct, seasons greetings to you 14:37:28 thanks 14:37:43 although in theory, I reckon you could get away with a season's greetings any time in Winter 14:37:46 * AnMaster is upgrading a remote freebsd server atm 14:37:53 although maybe it's an English idiom I don't really get either 14:38:01 ais523|direct, technically it could work at any point during the year 14:38:06 well, yes 14:38:07 just different seasons 14:38:12 I was thinking that too... 14:38:45 " although maybe it's an English idiom I don't really get either" <-- well it is the religious/customs neutral version basically 14:38:58 ah, maybe 14:39:09 equally meaningless in all traditions 14:39:17 oh yes and not offensive to anyone 14:39:20 just like the acronym UTC, which was chosen because it's wrong both in English and in French 14:39:30 hah indeed 14:40:33 incidentally, the hello world in Brainfuck I'm trying to debug atm is 929086 bytes 14:40:43 that's run-length encoded, too... 14:40:55 ais523|direct, wtf? 14:41:03 oh gcc-bf? 14:41:03 much bigger without, but that's partly because some of the pointer code has hundreds of thousands of >s in a row 14:41:04 right 14:41:05 and yes 14:41:20 there's a bug in my pointer handling that I know about, just haven't coded a fix yet 14:41:26 there are a lot more bugs I don't know about 14:41:48 ais523|direct, considering puts() fputs() and write() I did some tests recetly 14:41:52 recently* 14:41:57 anyway, the gcc-bf distribution, not counting the gcc or newlib sources, is 929086 bytes 14:42:03 um... 14:42:07 121507 14:42:09 copied the wrong number 14:42:10 someone claimed g++ -static generated much larger hello world than gcc -static 14:42:13 and that was true 14:42:26 until I added -nostdlib /usr/lib/libc.a 14:42:38 had to change to use write() too instead of puts() 14:42:48 and _exit(0); instead of return 0; 14:42:54 you can get gcc-bf programs a lot smaller by avoiding the stdlib 14:42:56 no idea why for the latter 14:42:59 I know why 14:43:02 it's to do with atexit 14:43:05 oh? 14:43:06 and the need to close open files when you use exit 14:43:09 ah 14:43:12 right 14:43:15 that means stdio needs to be linked in 14:43:22 gcc-bf's default runtime has an exit() in 14:43:38 which means it links stdio, that's why the hello world's so large 14:43:43 ais523|direct, anyway doing it that way got the size down to 6.6 KB for each. and *exactly the same binaries after strip* 14:43:46 from g++ and gcc 14:43:54 same md5sum 14:43:55 to get saner program sizes, I have a -naked option on the linker which doesn't include a limit 14:44:13 AnMaster: I'm not surprised, in theory C++ has no overhead compared to C if you don't use C++-specific features 14:44:27 on the other hand, good C style is bad C++ style 14:44:29 ais523|direct, yes I had to add -fno-exceptions to make it compile that way 14:44:36 for g++ 14:45:00 otherwise I got strange link time errors about symbols like __unwind_frame or such 14:45:03 don't remember details 14:45:16 anyway for bf stdio, that should be one area worth optimising a lot 14:45:24 yes 14:45:27 I already have a bf.h 14:45:30 maybe hand coding the stdio stuff to be as small as possible for gcc-bf 14:45:33 which only contains __bf_out and __bf_in atm 14:45:43 although I don't really need the double-underscores if it's in a dedicated header 14:45:47 ais523|direct, well it should be able to replace the newlib stdio and such 14:45:56 that's a project for later 14:46:04 anyway, here's a gcc-bf build command line: buildinto/bin/bf-gcc -Wl,-progress,-abi,-asm,-annotate,-map,-rle,-g,-trace tests/pointer.c --save-temps 14:46:17 that's due to me putting in all the debug options at once 14:46:19 because I bet that is one part that will save a lot if you replace 14:46:29 and yes, a new stdio would be nice, but difficult 14:46:30 -abi,-asm? 14:46:38 hm 14:46:38 -abi and -asm save two of the temporaries the linker uses 14:46:42 ah 14:46:44 makes sense 14:46:57 -map does just what it does in any other linker (although it often has a different name) 14:47:04 -progress shows progress bars, because it's slow 14:47:18 ais523|direct, why would a special bf stdio library optimized for size/speed be difficult? 14:47:26 I mean apart from bf always being a pain 14:47:26 because stdio itself is difficult 14:47:30 at least to pin down all the corner cases 14:47:36 I suppose you could have a nonconforming stdio-lite 14:47:43 ais523|direct, if I were to write it I would probably do something like C with inline bf 14:48:03 could be interesting 14:48:16 although there isn't all that much free tape atm 14:48:25 maybe parts could be pure bf even 14:48:35 well, most of gcc-bf doesn't generate pure bf 14:48:36 ais523|direct, you may need to increase memory then? 14:48:48 not really, I could just create extra memory 14:48:55 oh? 14:49:02 you said not a lot of free taoe 14:49:03 tape* 14:49:15 the problem's just that every tape cell is already used for something, well most of them 14:49:24 but I could just move everything to the right and use new cells at the left, for instance 14:50:14 hm? 14:50:15 what? 14:50:35 AnMaster: well, the BF tape is basically used to emulate a CPU 14:50:41 indeed 14:50:45 (the CPU was designed to be easy to emulate in BF) 14:50:51 hah 14:51:33 I also have a bf interp designed specifically for debugging gcc-bf 14:51:37 which can read its RLE output 14:51:39 hm nice 14:51:42 and reads its comments too 14:51:51 well, right, but can't you just do like the program does 14:51:52 so it knows quickly when something went wrong, and does a core-dump of the tape 14:51:53 malloc a block 14:51:56 and use it?? 14:52:01 yes, but mallocing's pretty slow 14:52:06 ah right 14:52:08 and besides, it involves pointers 14:52:10 and they're very slow 14:52:14 what about static buffers? 14:52:25 that doesn't need to involve pointers 14:52:35 you can have static buffers just fine 14:52:41 since you can pre-calculate where in the memory the buffer is 14:52:53 if you allocate a static buffer, gcc-bf will reserve every 6th element in a region of the tape (of its own choice) for it 14:52:56 you don't need any sort of indirection when accessing said buffer 14:52:57 and go there with > and < 14:53:03 directly 14:53:10 inded 14:53:10 so static buffers are pretty efficient in it 14:53:26 ais523|direct, that could be an issue if you don't know your exact current position? 14:53:30 say, in a recursive call 14:53:38 gcc-bf always knows its exact current position 14:53:47 really? hm ok 14:53:48 that's one of the main architectural choices I made in it 14:54:02 not only that, but -annotate writes the position as comments in the BF code 14:54:15 ais523|direct, how can it know that if the stack frame is of unkown size? 14:54:19 say due to using alloca() 14:54:28 it uses symbolic positions 14:54:34 hm ok 14:54:36 %sp means it's pointing to the top of stack, for instance 14:54:44 well I mean in the bf code 14:54:47 that is generated in the end 14:55:21 how can it know a fixed count of > or < needed to move to a static buffer and to get back 14:55:40 because it always moves via a particular location 14:55:47 ais523|direct, ah, and that is? 14:55:58 there's a dead zone of 6 cells, which is never used 14:56:02 at least, always 0 14:56:11 it always knows how to get to one of the cells in that range 14:56:16 (and by extension, any given cell in that range) 14:56:33 right, and this dead zone is used for scratch storage or? 14:56:38 during calculations 14:56:39 or 14:56:43 no, it's used for homing the pointer 14:56:51 many parts of memory are full of 1s 14:57:09 which means, for instance, starting at the stack pointer <<<<<[[<<<<<<]<<<<<<] will always land on a particular cell in the dead zone 14:57:27 ais523|direct, right 14:57:30 because every 6th cell contains a 1, apart from the start of a stack frame 14:57:41 and stack frames have to be at least 2 bytes, according to the processor ABI 14:57:53 ais523|direct, you have a copy of the stack frame every 6th byte!? 14:58:00 no 14:58:06 it wouldn't fit 14:58:10 what you mean then 14:58:19 the set of every 6th bytes together lets you determine where the stack frames are 14:58:27 they're 1 if a stack frame doesn't start there, or 0 if it does 14:58:55 ok 14:59:06 so you can easily search for it 14:59:07 right 14:59:09 yes 14:59:18 how do you know in what direction? 14:59:21 two 0s in a row mean you're either at top of stack (to the right) or in the dead zone (to the left) 14:59:34 and whenever the exact numerical location isn't known, we're to the right of the dead zone 14:59:39 to the left of that is just registers and temp cells 14:59:44 ah 15:00:18 so to move to a static area you just move to the dead zone then move a fixed number of cells from it? 15:00:22 yes 15:00:31 this makes me wonder how gcc-bf would handle buffer overflow 15:00:46 -!- cpu-jockey has quit ("leaving"). 15:00:47 it handles buffer overflow the same way as any other processor, it goes and overwrites memory 15:00:59 right, could it corrupt the internal state 15:01:04 weird stuff happens on buffer /underflow/, though, if it happened to be at the start of memory 15:01:08 -!- cruce has joined. 15:01:17 no, because the pointers are multiplied by 6 internally 15:01:19 also did I understand you right, for every 6 cells in memory there is one with actual program memory? 15:01:28 not exactly 15:01:33 no? 15:01:36 the program itself is compiled into BF, not into bytecode and interpreted 15:01:42 so the program is the program, it isn't stored on the tape anywhere 15:01:46 indeed 15:01:52 but I mean as in heap 15:01:53 every 6 cells, there are 2 which hold memory, one on the stack and one on the heap 15:01:54 or stack 15:01:59 ah 15:02:06 so stack and heap are interleaved!? 15:02:07 yes 15:02:14 and are separate segments? 15:02:15 heh 15:02:19 yes, separate segments 15:02:21 what does the pointers look like then 15:02:33 I mean, segment selector first or what? 15:02:42 0x00?????? for a function pointer, 0x01?????? for a stack pointer, 0x02?????? for a heap/static pointer 15:02:55 segment selector's in the MSB 15:02:55 hm interesting 15:03:10 byte or bit? 15:03:14 and the 4 bytes have weightings of 3, 65536*6, 256*6, 6 cells 15:03:19 they're byte pointers 15:03:23 hm right 15:03:41 I meant, MSB could be MS(Byte|Bit) 15:03:53 ah, ok, but it's byte in this case 15:03:58 the hex representations should have given it away 15:04:07 ah yes 15:04:23 ais523|direct, hm function pointers support jumping anywhere or? 15:04:28 yes 15:04:37 the entire program's basically in a massive switch statement, written in BF 15:04:44 that could probably be optimized away 15:04:48 at the end of any basic block, the address of the next basic block is set 15:04:56 and actually, that's very efficient with a decent interp and hardly uses any code 15:05:26 (the hyper-efficient way to end a program in gcc-bf is neither exit(0) nor _exit(0), it's goto *(void*)0;) 15:05:36 although the last is somewhat compiler-specific 15:05:40 and makes no sense in standard C 15:05:48 since you only need to jump to start of function, setjmp() calls, and for flow control inside functions (which could be a smaller switch for each function): labels, while, for, if and so on 15:06:21 being able to jump anywhere is pretty convenient, and it's not a computational order slowdown thing 15:06:42 it switches on the bottom 24 bits of the pointers, in blocks of 8 bits at a time 15:06:43 ais523|direct, I would assume it is undefined in C if you jump to any memory address that isn't a function pointer you got in a legal way 15:06:51 well, yes it is 15:07:01 but you'd still need to be able to jump to the address of any function 15:07:20 hm so each block, that means each line or each ; or what? 15:07:23 also, it would be nice if gcc-bf supported C++ too, and g++ does weird things with code pointers to handle exceptions 15:07:41 a block's a set of commands with linear control flow 15:07:53 as in, no jumping into or out of it 15:07:53 ah so you can't jump inside such a block? 15:08:02 no, nor call a function inside a block 15:08:04 but that makes me wonder 15:08:11 so they tend to start and end in the middle of statements 15:08:19 ais523|direct, ouch right 15:08:21 anyway 15:08:26 this makes me wonder a bit 15:08:27 can make it slightly confusing to debug 15:08:42 anyway, I have to go for a while, Christmas dinner 15:08:48 wouldn't it be possible to optimize some stuff better if you could reduce jump points 15:08:49 ais523|direct, cya 15:09:07 for example << and then >> but with jump related stuff in between 15:11:37 jump related stuff never used 15:12:29 or: while (i != 0) { j += my_static_array[i--]; } 15:12:40 that would probably be a for loop in most C programs 15:12:54 but this way is more BF-like 15:13:20 that while loop could probably be turned into a very simple and basic bf loop 15:33:30 -!- mib_vvzkm4 has joined. 15:33:38 Yo people. 15:33:40 Hi ais523|direct 15:33:41 * mib_vvzkm4 = ehird 15:40:50 Nobody here? Not even AnMaster ? 15:40:58 hm? 15:40:59 yes I am 15:41:11 Damn. :P 15:41:11 ais523 went to eat xmas dinner 15:41:18 That makes sense. 15:42:48 thought: 15:42:51 if we have the Poetic License 15:42:54 we need the Driver's License 15:44:59 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:49:30 -!- Corun has joined. 15:51:53 back 15:52:04 mib_vvzkm4: there's the Artistic Licence too 15:52:09 and all this time, I never realised it was a pun 15:53:26 the Poetic License is nice. 15:53:27 hmm... eso-std.org's still down 15:53:32 * mib_vvzkm4 is using it for the IRC bouncer he's writing 15:53:34 merry christmas ehird, anyway 15:53:37 ais523|direct: yes, I haven't got cherokee up yet 15:53:41 I left it yesterday 15:53:52 the artistic licence is, by chance, the only one to be tested in court 15:54:04 had some problems with checkinstall 15:54:12 so, gonna write a bouncer while i think how to fix them :P 15:54:21 an #esotericians christmas! 15:54:40 it's boxing day for AnMaster 15:54:43 or whatever thehy call it over there 15:55:02 "christmas day 1" 15:55:07 they celebrate on "christmas eve" 15:55:13 and have two christmas days after that, sans celebration 15:55:21 they celebrate on dec 24, nothing wrong with that 15:55:22 ¯\(°_o)/¯ 15:55:25 after all, the date's uncertain 15:55:29 ais523|direct: but they call it christmas eve 15:56:00 well that is christmas day and "secondday christmas" (literal translation, it sounds "Olde Swedish" in Swedish, basically that form only exists in that specific phrase) 15:56:09 these days 15:58:27 * ais523|direct wonders where to put the current version of gcc-bf 15:58:37 ais523|direct: filebin.ca? 15:58:40 how large is it? 15:58:42 it's nowhere near finished, but it's finished enough to try to run some specially constructed programs in 15:59:03 AnMaster: a bit over 100K, not counting the source to gcc and to newlib which you already have IIRC 15:59:12 filebin.ca 15:59:14 well I mean the stuff you would upload 15:59:17 also I got rid of the calls to realpath, I think it still works 16:00:00 heh 16:00:19 http://filebin.ca/txobpp/gcc-bf.tar.gz then 16:03:02 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)). 16:03:09 will try it later 16:03:13 bit busy atm 16:03:20 upgrading a freebsd server remotely 16:03:22 that's fine 16:03:37 no need to try it right away, just thought I'd transfer the file while we were both online 16:03:49 it's at the state of "in theory almost finished, in practice incredibly buggy" 16:04:06 and atm I'm just using a development model of "write test case, repeatedly fix the first bug it discovers until it works" 16:05:14 I cannot believe there isn't a simple sha1 :: String -> String in Haskell's Hackage library store. 16:05:28 I don't WANT ByteString -> Digest, damnit. 16:05:32 sha1s aren't strings, they're numbers... 16:05:37 and probably it's to do with unicod 16:05:37 fine 16:05:39 String -> Integer 16:05:39 *unicode 16:05:44 and it is, but it's irrelevant 16:05:47 I found one that does it nicely 16:05:49 but it's not in hackage 16:05:52 for god knows what reason 16:05:58 I could add it 16:06:05 but i'd have to fiddle with it to make it work properly 16:06:35 gah, and it's GP 16:06:35 L 16:07:06 i hate the gpl. 16:07:11 btw, the licence for gcc-bf at the moment is "undecided, but it's going to be something that can legally be used in a GPL3 program" 16:07:28 ais523|direct: BSD2/BSD3/MIT/Poetic 16:07:32 failing that, LGPL 16:07:34 :-P 16:07:53 ais523|direct: oh, or the DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO PUBLIC LICENSE, VERSION 2 16:08:05 (it demands its full formal name...) 16:08:08 I think the bits designed to go into gcc itself will be GPL3+ as gcc itself is, the libraries will probably be BSD3, not sure about the linker yet 16:08:12 (http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/) 16:08:21 and I know the WTFPL, but not the Poetic 16:08:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_License 16:08:31 Poem license. 16:13:42 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 16:13:50 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:19:20 mib_vvzkm4: that might be interestingly risky, although probably not 16:19:29 this is a typical lawyer silliness 16:19:55 basically, the law says that warranty disclaimers have to be prominent, or obvious, or something like that (I can't remember the exact word) or they don't count 16:20:04 and there's court precedent that writing them in allcaps is one way to do that 16:20:12 ais523|direct: ISC isn't allcaps. 16:20:21 as a result, professional licence-writing lawyers have always written warranty disclaimers in allcaps 16:20:28 well, true 16:20:29 because there's precedent that way works, why gamble on any other method? 16:20:46 ais523|direct: Well, they're the inferior soulless beings of the world. :-P 16:21:09 ais523|direct: Isn't copyright law _all_ about intent, anyway? 16:21:20 not completely, unfortunately 16:21:35 well, otherwise it would be impossible to tell whether you were allowed to copy something or not 16:21:48 ais523|direct: ok, reasonably obvious intent 16:21:53 just like with copyright infringment 16:22:02 doing it the other way round can be interesting, though 16:22:14 the intent of the copyright holder, as opposed to the intent of the copier 16:22:16 how much does that matter? 16:22:34 beats me 16:22:43 I don't know off by heart either 16:22:43 but I'd say that the Poetic License probably won't be judged to not work because it isn't allcaps. 16:23:05 the amusing thing is even the professional lawyers seem to mess up 16:23:24 the famous APA contract between SCO and Novell, for instance, was unclear enough for people to argue all sorts of weird things about it 16:23:37 maybe they should get nomic players to look the contracts over 16:24:02 if r101/town fountain work poetic license does too :-P 16:24:31 also, have SCO appealed the most recent judgment against them yet? 16:24:33 mib_vvzkm4: I don't think the town fountain is an RL-binding warranty disclaimer 16:24:47 mib_vvzkm4: not yet as far as I know 16:24:54 they sent a letter to the courts saying they planned to, or something 16:25:09 and got an answer back saying vaguely "make sure you follow procedure to the letter and we're not going to bother to tell you what it is" 16:25:12 god, I wish they'd just die already. 16:25:49 and other things that showed the court in question was aware of SCO, like talking about how delaying tactics were unwise 16:26:23 i don't really like novell either tho 16:26:42 I'd like to see SCO vs. IBM get judged 16:26:44 sometime 16:27:05 IBM winning that will be infinitely more amusing than Novell mostly winning 16:27:06 i think I like Red Hat, as far as linux companies go. at least, I haven't heard of them doing bad stuff 16:27:18 especially as SCO's argument in that one was a lot less plausible than their argument against Novell 16:27:21 also, SCO winning against IBM would probably be even funnier, albeit disasterous 16:27:40 I'm not sure I could see the amusement in that, tbh 16:27:44 it would just make no sense 16:28:08 "Hey, we invented Moore's Law and used it to prove that Itanium being unpopular was a conspiracy! Oh, and that means we own Linux, for some reason!" 16:28:19 over-the-top ridiculousness applied to formal beorcracy (I can never spell that word) is always funny 16:28:25 bureaucracy 16:28:37 I could remember buraeu, cracy but thatwould be too logical 16:28:48 what, even that prisoner who went and tried to intervene in SCO vs. Novell 16:28:56 haha what 16:28:57 arguing that SCO's lawyers weren't doing a very good job and he could do better? 16:29:07 hahahahahah 16:29:20 mib_vvzkm4: it seems he's some sort of "artist" who uses comedic lawsuits as a medium 16:29:34 that's great 16:29:40 he's sued an incredibly large number of people, some of whom don't exist 16:29:51 can you sue yourself? 16:29:55 I don't know 16:29:59 i hope so 16:30:00 it would be expensive, so probably not worth it 16:30:04 i want to get money off myself. 16:30:37 yes, but most of it would go to the lawyers 16:45:07 ais523|direct: you can't use a GPL library in a non-GPL program right? 16:45:09 not even gpl-compat 16:45:24 if you do, the resulting combination is GPL 16:45:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:45:40 and so you have to distribute the source to your non-GPL program under the GPL 16:45:57 therefore, pretty much locking it into GPL-only distribution terms for any derivatives 16:46:10 you could licence it multilicence BSD/GPL, but nobody will be able to use the BSD half 16:46:43 i hope the gpl dies. 16:46:50 you really don't like it that much? 16:47:26 a wealth of libraries that I can't use because I disagree with how it goes about things, or just because it's not suitable for the certain thing I'm working on? 16:47:35 for no reason other than a stupid political statement by rms? 16:47:43 i'd be very happy if it disappeared. 16:47:50 people licencing libraries under the GPL are more or less deliberately saying "I only want this to be used in GPL programs" 16:48:03 yes, but it's ridiculous 16:48:16 which, btw, is why gcc-bf's runtime libraries won't be licenced under just GPL 16:48:16 a wealth of libraries that I can't use because I disagree with how it goes about things, or just because it's not suitable for the certain thing I'm working on. 16:48:57 you can't use them because you don't want to make your own code GPL, actually 16:49:01 which also makes sense 16:50:39 ais523|direct: I don't want to use the GPL because "I disagree with how it goes about things, or just because it's not suitable for the certain thing I'm working on." 16:51:01 yes 16:51:33 the argument really is that you have someone who doesn't want their libraries to be used in a closed-source way under any circumstances, therefore obviously you can't use them in your program that you do want to be usable like that 16:53:33 ais523|direct: the point is, its viral nature is stopping me using perfectly good open source libraries -- heck, one of them is just a direct transliteration of the sha1 spec to haskell -- that would be absolutely fine non-GPL'd and I'm not even using it commercially, just in a non-GPL program 16:53:37 in summary, the GPL sucks. 16:53:47 no, people have been applying it to the wrong things 16:54:33 either that, or they're people who don't like their work being used in a closed-source program ever 16:54:46 ais523|direct: there is no correct use 16:54:46 although you might not share that attitude, I'm surprised that you seem not to understand it 16:54:53 (I don't really share that attitude either...) 16:55:09 what I mean is, there will always be people who want copyleftness for some reason or otehr 16:55:11 the only thing the GPL's viral nature is useful for is to stop it getting into commercial software 16:55:17 and that's just anti-commercial paranoia 16:55:19 mostly to stop people messing with the licence terms 16:55:38 ais523|direct: for free software, what terms can there be 16:55:51 apart from "you can do anything but you have to include this notice" 16:55:54 mib_vvzkm4: let's say, someone releases a derivative of your software under an ecolicence 16:56:03 and it becomes popular, but you can't use it legally 16:56:04 the only t hing that actually needs viralness 16:56:07 is stopping commercial software using it 16:56:15 i believe this is misguided. 16:56:17 mib_vvzkm4: or stopping people adding extra terms to the licences 16:56:25 put it this way, suppose you release a BSD library 16:56:27 ais523|direct: so what 16:56:33 someone modifies it to make it more useful, and releases the result under GPL 16:56:39 would you be happy with that? 16:56:53 I'd think they're an ass, but I wouldn't try and stop them. 16:57:03 well, yes, you couldn't easily 16:57:10 what if the GPL library became a lot more popular than your original? 16:57:13 I guess I don't see the need to formalize human reasonableness and decency. 16:57:20 ais523|direct: sucks to be me, I guess. 16:57:27 mib_vvzkm4: ok, I think I see your logic 16:57:38 the truth is, most people aren't as trusting of everyone in the world as you are 16:57:49 ais523|direct: It's not about trusting. 16:57:51 They can't do anything to -you-. 16:58:08 Besides, if you don't "trust" people, don't release it as free software 16:58:12 they can cause you to have wasted your time... 16:58:13 what if they modify it 16:58:15 and make it WORSE 16:58:21 and it gets more popular than the original?!!! 16:58:26 then the new version is unlikely to catch on, if it's sufficiently worse 16:58:39 ais523|direct: no, in the kind of broken way that seems better to most people 16:58:44 btu for the people who actually know how it works, is crappy 16:58:52 and leads to problems further along the lines 16:58:53 then arguably it is better 16:58:59 I mean, phpBB is coded awfully 16:59:01 but it's pretty popular 16:59:03 ais523|direct: no, because it leads to serious problems in the end 16:59:04 anyway 16:59:09 we should add a clause to the GPL4 16:59:12 and yes, it is leading to serious problems in the end... 16:59:16 "Derivatives of the software must improve on it." 16:59:27 this will stop bad people from making it worse. 16:59:36 mib_vvzkm4: would you consider releasing software under BSD plus that clause? 16:59:39 somehow, i don't think so 16:59:46 also 16:59:55 users of the software must brush their teeth, and floss 17:00:07 we're ensuring our users stay free and healthy! 17:00:13 actually, I think the main reason the GPL is designed as it is, is to avoid the scenario of someone getting a copy of the software but not be able to tinker with it 17:00:30 RMS was putting himself in the end-user's position, and deciding he was really annoyed with inability to tinker 17:00:37 s/software/a derivative of software/, you mean 17:00:44 well, even the original 17:00:54 d(software)/dx? :o 17:01:00 it's illegal for me to send you unmodified GPL binaries, but not tell you where the source is 17:01:10 that's nothing to do with viral nature 17:01:12 that's OK, imo 17:01:18 but nto for derivatives, really 17:01:19 meh 17:01:28 anyway in which case, ais523|direct -- didn't you say "its the devs choice to not allow it to be used commercially" 17:01:40 I didn't say that exactly 17:01:43 in this case, it's the developer of a derivative's choice to not allow it to be modified 17:02:00 mib_vvzkm4: the problem with derivatives is they have to respect the original author's wishes too 17:02:08 see, if someone founded a business by taking my library, and adding their own top-secret magic juice that makes their product amazing and they sell loads and blah blah blah 17:02:14 to me, not releasing the source is absolutely fine, good on them 17:02:16 I'm perfectly happy with people releasing non-derivative software under a noderivs licence 17:02:30 or derivative software where the original author's happy with that 17:02:32 it's their business, as long as they retain my name in there, that's OK 17:02:43 not everyone shares your attitude, especially if they have a job 17:03:01 effectively, if you write a BSD-licenced library, you're doing other people's work for them 17:03:06 some people are happy with that, some people aren't 17:03:13 yeah. that's called free software/open source. 17:03:14 crazy thing that. 17:03:22 yes 17:03:57 except... in the GPL world, everyone ends up having to give back by the nature of the licence, that makes it more acceptable to some people to GPL in the first place 17:04:08 as in, if you create BSD works, other people could use them and not give anything back 17:04:24 if you create GPL works, other people who modify them have to either keep the modifications to themselves, or give them to everyone 17:04:31 that's fine. if it's their innovation, fine. it's their right to keep it to themselves. 17:04:36 (rather than the usual middle ground of giving them only to paying customers, for instance) 17:04:41 of course, it'd be nicer if they released it, but free software is about freedom, anyway 17:05:01 graue was a big believer in public domain (probably still is), and I see his point too, by the way 17:05:12 I think he still is 17:05:30 and this argument, I think, is all about how much people should have the freedom to limit other people's freedom 17:05:31 I use a real license due to the shaky legal status of PD 17:05:45 I'm considering modifying an existing one to remove the required-notice stuff 17:05:48 Creative Commons have written a ridiculously detailed PDing licence 17:05:49 to be effectively pd 17:05:54 much more PDing than their old one 17:05:54 ais523|direct: it's pd-emulation 17:05:57 yep 17:05:58 it explicitly grants all rights 17:06:04 yes, and one at a time! 17:06:10 :) 17:06:18 "You can brush your teeth with this work." 17:06:22 "You can nkep with this work." 17:06:30 "You can zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzUIY*Q&Y$* on a sunday morning with this work." 17:06:43 I think there are only a finite number of things that are illegal to do with copyrighted works anyway, and they're each explicitly made legal 17:06:48 after all, the law is only finitely long... 17:07:33 except - it's not necessarily the same in all countries, is it? 17:07:41 no, that's why the licence is so long I think 17:07:48 having to cover all the possibilities 17:07:56 http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/nano-md5/0.1.2/doc/html/Data-Digest-OpenSSL-MD5.html 17:07:56 yay 17:08:05 bsd3 17:08:44 mib_vvzkm4: you are going to put their copyright notice in the materials accompanying the distribution, right? 17:09:06 hmm, isn't that implicit for shared libraries as long as you don't include their source? 17:09:20 i'm not modifying or redistributing it, after all 17:09:23 I think so, assuming the person got the shared library legitimately 17:09:33 then the answer is no :-P 17:09:37 how are you using it and not redistributing it? telling people to get it from hackage themselves? 17:09:41 yep 17:09:44 should work 17:10:01 well, also putting it in the cabal file so that when I put it on hackage it auto-downloads those as dependencies. 17:17:18 ew. someone referring to an operating system as just "GNU". 17:17:43 actually, I consider GNU to be an operating system whose shell is Emacs and for which they still haven't written the kernel 17:17:52 hurd!!!!!!!!111111111 17:18:01 i think the correct name is GNU/Suicide, though. 17:18:14 if you read Stallman's original famous message, he mentioned that he wanted both C and Lisp as system programming languages 17:18:17 yep. 17:18:28 it shows in the awful gnu c code. 17:18:31 I actually think GNU Emacs was intentionally, not just accidentally, designed to be an OS 17:18:49 he wanted a program that could do everything he wanted. 17:18:49 so, yes. 17:18:50 probably Stallman's disappointed that people keep mistaking it for an editor 17:20:06 I wonder if the zippiness I'm experiencing thanks to this here 2.5 GB of RAM is just placebo. 17:20:09 (Answer: probably.) 17:20:20 placebo zippiness is great, though 17:20:24 yep :P 17:20:36 it makes the computer seem just as responsive as real zippiness, but without the hardware costs 17:20:55 well, 2gb of ram only costs like £15 nowadays 17:21:19 ais523|direct: unfortunately, this is placebo zippiness, plus the hardware costs 17:21:20 :P 17:22:01 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 17:22:13 mibbit smilies are ugly 17:22:35 urd 17:22:39 urd 17:22:45 &yes 17:22:51 s/\&/*/ 17:22:53 i thought urd was like oko 17:23:02 no, it's just a common typo of mine 17:23:19 caused by alt-tabbing to an IRC window and trying to type yes before I've got my hands back to the usual position 17:23:58 heh 17:25:11 it could become a new meme I suppose, but oko has more power 17:25:14 and an obvious response 17:26:50 (incidentally, the same doesn't happen with "no", because that's typed with the right hand) 17:30:09 proto: vim merges with emacs 17:30:25 well, I suppose it might happen 17:30:35 but you'd probably just end up with some sort of reverse viper 17:30:39 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 17:30:43 * ais523|direct tries to imagine vim with emacs keybindings 17:31:05 I wonder if there's ever been an #esoteric meetup. 17:31:13 that would be scary 17:31:21 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 17:31:27 scary awesome 17:31:57 :) 17:32:22 impractical due to the huge variety of countries and continents that esotericers are in 17:32:31 err, ofc I meant country-local 17:32:47 but I don't think there are more than 3 or 4 people from any one country here 17:33:07 how many englishmen here... me, you, SimonRC... anyone else? 17:33:51 English or British? 17:35:51 ais523|direct: either I guess. 17:37:42 ais523|direct: wat 17:37:53 mib_vvzkm4: I CTCP TIMEd the whole of #esoteric 17:37:59 heh 17:38:02 to narrow down nationalities based on timezones 17:38:28 only two people responded in UTC+0, neither of them were either of us 17:38:44 there's lots of UTC+1 and UTC+2 though 17:38:44 huh 17:38:51 boo! 17:38:58 mib_vvzkm4: well, Mibbit doesn't resopnd to ctcp time, I think 17:39:01 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 17:39:02 and hi oerjan 17:39:19 and my global ctcp doesn't hit myself 17:39:34 an #esoteric meetup would probably culminate in two things 17:39:40 the most horrifying programming language ever, and 17:39:43 the most horrifying program ever 17:39:45 2) gay sex 17:39:49 Oh. 17:39:52 i'm not sure that would happen. 17:40:03 * oerjan swats Slereah in a gentle, caring way -----### 17:40:10 * ais523|direct ducks 17:40:15 oerjan: get a room 17:40:17 wouldn't want you to swat me by mistake... 17:40:27 indeed 17:41:07 -!- bsmntbombgirl has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:41:57 -!- bsmntbombgirl has joined. 17:47:19 hm. 17:52:16 -!- bsmntbombgirl has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 17:54:05 bsmntbombdood: what is going on with your nick? I'm getting disturbed 17:54:19 ais523|direct: numerous sex changes, apparently. 17:54:30 DON"T JUDGE ME 18:01:09 . 18:01:19 ` 18:03:14 . 18:03:26 ` 18:05:54 , 18:05:59 ` 18:06:07 , 18:06:15 ` 18:09:52 o 18:09:59 oko 18:12:17 -!- Asztal has joined. 18:26:52 hmm, I dislike IRC. 18:26:58 Who wants to build the ultimate chat protocol with me? 18:27:03 It'll have lasers. And kittens. 18:27:04 I rather like IRC 18:27:12 ais523|direct: Multiple kittens. 18:27:27 I have already has one unfulfilled promise of kittens this year 18:27:30 *had 18:27:33 which? 18:27:36 you really expect me to fall for another? 18:27:40 and it was in RL, not online 18:27:45 hah 18:27:52 ais523|direct: well, these are kittens, with, lasers 18:27:56 so, the lasers make them more real. 18:30:16 why would a chat system need that, though? 18:30:42 ais523|direct: popularity. 18:30:48 also, this system could replace email too. 18:30:52 I think I'll stick to IRC 18:30:57 kindainstantchatkittenlaser 18:34:47 i think kittens with lasers may have harmful effects on your mice. 18:34:55 what do you dislike about IRC? 18:35:01 I'm not using a mouse atm 18:35:07 as in, right now, although I have one I have nowhere to put it 18:35:38 Asztal: not enough kittens 18:35:46 hm actually i'm using a pad myself 18:36:23 there are cat bots, and fish bots 18:36:31 we just need a kitten bot 18:36:44 I miss fishbot :( 18:37:12 there was a fishbot? 18:37:20 on quakenet, there was. 18:37:25 [[I submit a consultation. "Any person is, durign any voting period allowed to abstain from voting for that voting period." ]] 18:37:31 NO. It's in the secret rule. 18:37:43 what did fishbot do? 18:38:43 It m00ed 18:39:33 it's generally pretty useless, but is usually in hundreds (thousands?) of channels 18:43:35 http://web.archive.org/web/20080129154023/www.telkman.co.uk/f/commands.php 18:47:33 i'd have thought that would be more a cowbot's thing 18:49:34 "Any sentence with vinegar and aftershock in it" 18:50:16 -!- mib_vvzkm4 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 18:50:18 no 18:50:35 -!- mib_ewzho7 has joined. 18:53:24 hmm 18:53:27 what should I implement... 18:53:36 how about iota 18:54:22 could be interesting 18:54:32 ... but not this awful one: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~gmb13/Iota/ 18:54:34 probably easier than Unlambda 18:55:30 wait, first-class XML? 18:56:00 that's sort of the non-eso branch of bad language design, IMO 18:57:58 Done. 18:58:09 http://pastie.org/private/ftvs4xhdakpj8qdw0eya 18:58:21 In Ruby, which is odd for me recently. 18:58:34 I was trying to figure out what lang that was 18:58:38 and guessed Ruby just before you told me 18:58:42 heh 18:58:50 the { |x| ... } was a giveaway 18:58:58 is Ruby whitespace-sensitive, by the way? 18:59:02 no 18:59:07 well, yes 18:59:09 you can't do 18:59:14 ah, thus the "end" keywords 18:59:14 defx2end 18:59:20 and I meant as in Python 18:59:24 but it doesn't use indentation for structure 18:59:24 I should have said indentation-sensitive 18:59:43 the ends can get a bit ugly if you have very-nested structures 18:59:49 the solution is to not have them 18:59:52 (split them up) 18:59:56 because they don't stack as well as ))))) or }}} 19:00:00 yes 19:00:05 ais523|direct: incidentally, 19:00:19 k = proc do |x| proc do |y| x end end 19:00:22 would have worked too 19:00:27 for blocks, do = { and end = } 19:00:28 * ais523|direct suddenly realises that there's hardly any, if any, [[[ or ]]] in gcc-bf 19:00:37 for that matter, there's not a whole lot of [[ or ]] 19:00:46 well, [[ ... ]] is just [ ... ] ... 19:00:52 I know 19:00:55 :P 19:01:00 but I mean [[ ... ] ... ] is something I use from time to time 19:01:11 but [ ... [ ... ]], or anything with [[[ or ]]], is really rare 19:01:16 yeah 19:01:23 hmm, I'm liking Ruby again 19:01:43 the longest patterned bits of code are the [-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-...s at the start of the switch statements 19:02:05 and of course the 300,000+ consecutive >s, but if you're sane you leave those run-length-encoded, as they come up quite a lot 19:05:07 theory: any #esoteric meetup will inevitably culminate in making a clone of the LHC that actually works and destroys the world 19:05:11 written in brainfuck 19:05:14 and subleq 19:05:28 the LHC isn't designed to destroy the world! 19:05:28 and made entirely out of tape. 19:05:32 so world destruction != actually working 19:05:41 ais523|direct: it is. 19:05:42 secretly. 19:06:18 mib_ewzho7: we don't have the resources to make a collider 19:06:36 we _might_ be able to make an evil AI, though 19:06:52 hm wait 19:07:01 oerjan: no we do 19:07:04 it's all in the specific brand of tape 19:07:04 we make an evil AI which then builds the collider 19:07:09 yeah 19:07:11 that's what i was about to say 19:08:04 hey, that's brilliant! 19:08:12 for all this time, I was lamenting the lack of any truly evil genii 19:08:26 because nobody is that maniacally insanely evil in practice 19:08:35 but of course, an AI could be programmed to be evil, avoiding the problem 19:08:48 y6666665yty7u77uyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy767yyyyy6 19:08:57 sorry, hair on my keyboard, I was trying to get rid of it 19:09:00 er*(&!(*&18y227222222222222LOST CARRIER 19:12:24 ais523|direct: it's all right we won't disrespect you just because you have spasms 19:12:36 not much, anyhow 19:12:58 oh, it's my habit recently of pressing enter to clear a line, especially on IRC, to make an interesting topic of conversation 19:14:17 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 19:14:19 discuss! 19:14:30 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 19:14:53 a brute force argument if i ever saw one 19:15:06 A aaaa aa aaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaa a aaaaaaa aaaaaa aaaa aaaaaa aaa aaaa aaaa a'a aaaaaaa aaaaa. 19:15:32 ah. 19:16:06 inserting in a priority queue is O(log n) right? 19:16:25 how are LRU caches implemented? 19:17:09 for the right implementation i think so 19:19:10 hmm 19:19:20 someone name a few sequences that 42 is in 19:19:23 well-known I maen 19:19:25 *mean 19:19:30 the natural numbers 19:19:38 -.- 19:19:50 the even numbers 19:19:57 I think whitespace between a function and the opening parenthesis for the arguments used to raise a warning that things might change 19:20:01 oops 19:20:12 I'm in the past 19:20:13 the non-prime numbers 19:20:22 the imperfect numbers 19:21:11 Catalan numbers 19:21:15 ooh 19:21:21 I cheated 19:21:47 lol 19:21:59 http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/?q=42&go=Search :) 19:22:01 the set of numbers which are the product of two consecutive integers in two ways 19:27:02 um it's always two ways or none, i think 19:34:19 hmm the [[priority queue]] says that inserting AND removing are O(log n) 19:34:26 maybe in your silly commutative algebrae 19:34:26 shouldn't one be constant and the other be log 19:35:22 making overall time for sorting O(n log n) 19:36:18 it's n log n both ways round 19:36:26 because O(2n log n) = O(n log n) 19:36:30 "If a self-balancing binary search tree is used, all three operations take O(log n) time" 19:36:59 "Fibonacci heaps can insert elements, peek at the maximum priority element, and increase an element's priority in amortized constant time (deletions are still O(log n))." 19:37:10 it really depends on which implementation you use 19:37:23 oh i must have missed that 19:38:25 oh i cut off the first too soon 19:38:34 interesting to peak but not delete in constant time 19:38:38 "The binary heap uses O(log n) time for both operations, but allows peeking at the element of highest priority without removing it in constant time." 19:38:58 um wait 19:39:15 * oerjan confuses himself, all three pastes were right 20:02:24 -!- mib_ewzho7 has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:02:24 -!- Asztal has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:02:26 -!- Slereah has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:02:27 -!- sebbu has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:02:28 -!- rodgort has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:02:28 -!- decipher has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:02:29 -!- Badger has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:02:29 -!- AnMaster has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:02:30 -!- ais523|direct has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:02:33 -!- lament has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:02:33 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:02:33 -!- SimonRC has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:02:33 -!- Ilari has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:02:34 -!- mtve has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:09:41 -!- SimonRC has joined. 20:09:41 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:09:41 -!- Slereah has joined. 20:09:41 -!- ais523|direct has joined. 20:09:41 -!- mib_ewzho7 has joined. 20:09:41 -!- Asztal has joined. 20:09:41 -!- Badger has joined. 20:09:41 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 20:09:41 -!- AnMaster has joined. 20:09:41 -!- rodgort has joined. 20:09:41 -!- decipher has joined. 20:09:41 -!- Ilari has joined. 20:09:41 -!- lament has joined. 20:09:41 -!- mtve has joined. 20:09:55 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 20:10:29 -!- SimonRC has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:10:33 -!- SimonRC has joined. 20:17:43 a 20:17:59 don't you dare try to start another game of that 20:18:02 e 20:18:03 a 20:18:07 f 20:18:09 I'm in no mood for being thrashed yet again, given that it's Christmas 20:18:15 ]+ 20:28:45 -!- oerjan has quit ("Break"). 20:33:45 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:35:40 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:47:33 hm 20:47:35 this is strange 20:47:53 a weird wave-like pattern in the build output when building openssl on freebsd 20:47:56 http://omploader.org/vMTF3NA 20:48:00 a conspiracy maybe ;P 20:48:10 (actually it looks quite cool) 20:51:28 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:05:21 -!- fizzie has joined. 21:06:26 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:28:33 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:16:12 back 22:16:44 AnMaster: that's nice 22:16:55 heh 22:17:11 this system is wow so much faster with the extra 1.5 GB of ram 22:28:21 * Sgeo has a grand total of 512MB ram 22:28:50 Sgeo: Hi 2002 22:28:59 lol 22:29:08 Did I ever mention what graphics card I have? 22:29:09 You look crappy there! 22:29:41 nVidia RIVA TNT2 22:30:28 hahahahahah 22:31:42 They laughed when I told them my computer's specs, but who's laughing now?!?!?!? 22:32:03 They, still. 22:32:03 Me. 22:32:36 Yeah, well, I still want to sound mad 22:32:45 hey fizzie, how do you feel about fungot getting competition in the babbler, random, schizophrenic, crazy bot with tons of stupid features market 22:32:46 mib_ewzho7: the valid judgements for this, if 22:47:04 As long as I have monopoly in the lucrative "Befunge IRC-bots" market; licenses for those are what's keeping me fed! 22:47:21 fizzie: how many have you sold? 22:47:49 ais523|direct: That's confidential information, but I can say that the number has a zero imaginary part. 22:48:05 good to know they're all real licences 22:48:57 (that was advertising for botte btw) 22:54:54 -!- Corun has joined. 22:56:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 23:48:13 -!- ais523|direct has quit. 23:48:44 -!- mib_ewzho7 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 23:58:56 -!- Asztal has joined. 2008-12-26: 00:18:48 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:48:07 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:52:24 -!- sebbu has joined. 00:52:37 -!- Corun has joined. 01:11:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:45:33 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 01:49:19 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 01:58:32 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 02:59:54 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: Read Christmas | Higher cardinality than Integer Christmas. 03:14:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:15:09 -!- Warrigal has joined. 03:19:17 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 03:19:20 I want to improvise a natural language again. 03:22:04 Take words from any language but English, and stick them together until a language forms. 03:22:44 Alternatively, use numbers instead of words. 03:23:54 That sounds fun, actually. 03:24:41 It sounds so fun that I'm going to go do something else, unless someone else is actually interested. 03:29:31 -!- calamari has joined. 03:43:34 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:44:42 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 03:45:07 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:16:47 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:17:33 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:17:39 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:22:34 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:33:32 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:33:37 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:35:38 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:15:20 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 06:37:15 -!- GregorR has joined. 06:40:51 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 06:54:40 -!- moozilla has joined. 06:57:18 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:48:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:56:45 -!- moozilla has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:11:20 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:30:58 -!- moozilla has joined. 08:33:19 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:35:07 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 09:34:17 -!- moozilla has joined. 09:49:17 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:27:07 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:29:23 -!- puzzlet has joined. 10:50:02 -!- Mony has joined. 10:53:07 hi guys :) 10:54:15 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:54:22 moooooo 10:57:10 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:03:27 -!- rinsmaster has joined. 11:16:36 -!- moozilla has joined. 11:31:37 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:28:02 -!- jix has joined. 12:37:16 -!- moozilla has joined. 12:38:54 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 12:40:25 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:44:26 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:44:31 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:50:40 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:51:35 -!- puzzlet has joined. 13:28:16 -!- moozilla has joined. 13:35:39 -!- DK has joined. 13:35:43 -!- DK has quit (Client Quit). 13:46:37 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:24:57 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:25:01 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:41:21 -!- moozilla has joined. 14:43:36 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:57:58 -!- Asztal has joined. 15:01:11 -!- SirDayBat has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 15:08:59 -!- oklopol has joined. 15:35:27 -!- flexo has joined. 15:35:41 hello 15:35:45 -!- mib_prms12 has joined. 15:35:48 hi 15:35:53 hi. 15:36:55 i while ago i wrote a toadskin interpreter (because the reference implementation is so buggy .. it's not usable to any extend) and wrote hanoi in my "improved" TS (where improved means i got rid of the stupid "ring buffer" and fixed the interpreter bugs) 15:37:03 so far so good 15:37:15 i'm very positive that this toadskin is not yet TC in any way 15:37:30 cool. 15:37:31 as you have only one stack (there is also the callstack, but it's not possible to store anything but return "addresses" so...) 15:37:46 you can do "useful" things with it ofcourse 15:37:49 now, i'm wondering 15:38:02 if you'd have it save the accumulator on the callstack 15:38:10 would that maybe make it TC? 15:38:15 dunno :) 15:38:25 well, give it a thought then :P 15:39:11 it would most definitly not be possible to implement arbitrary algorithms in this "new TS" 15:39:21 then it is not tc 15:39:30 as emulation of a tape is limited to one side by not being able to define as many words as one wishes 15:39:39 (there are only so many characters) 15:39:40 but! 15:39:47 it may be enough to implement a brainfuck interpreter 15:40:18 and i believe this counts as TC - considering that that (2,3) TM is universal. 15:40:50 -!- SirDayBat has joined. 15:40:56 feel free to share your thoughts 15:41:06 and, showing off, ofcourse: 15:41:41 :w<%>;:a>[-w+w];:s>[-w-w];:d<%w[-w+%w+%w];:yd>%<;:c[-];:mw[-w%<%ya>%w]%>c;:r>%w%<%;:o>[w.>-];:1+<;:211a;:z2a;:31z;:42z;:53z;:64z;:86z;:Z48m;:Y85;:AYa5ma1o;:Bc%AZd64a3mad1sZ4oA25m1o;:C%y%ya3%s;:DC%>rrEr;:Ed>[>-Brrr%D%C%>%rr>+ :) 15:42:18 you obviously need a working interpreter, provided here: http://flexotec.eu/~flexo/toadskin.rb 15:42:24 * flexo sits back 15:44:58 flexo: if you can do bf 15:45:01 you can do arbitrary algos 15:45:07 well - no 15:45:12 yes. 15:45:16 let's assume that the maximum program length is limited for example 15:45:32 then that's not really tc. 15:46:00 fine 15:46:09 well 15:46:12 that's the question 15:46:26 i think it is 15:46:43 as an UTM (which is considered to be the measure for TC, right?) has no program at all 15:46:46 just input 15:47:02 mm 15:47:02 being the initial tape content 15:47:42 if my ITS (improved toadskin.. yes! just made that up!) has just enough definable words to implement a BF interpreter that should do the trick 15:48:16 or just enough words to implement that (2,3) TM, but that would just be sick 15:48:45 should be much easier though 15:49:15 but my plan would be to write a BF-to-ITS compiler 15:49:20 -!- moozilla has joined. 15:49:37 (which i think is do-able and the easiest approach given the similiarities between ITS and BF) 15:49:55 and use it to compile daniel's BF-BF interpreter 15:51:59 (daniel b cristofani doesn't happen to hang out around here? :) 15:52:13 yep 15:52:14 as dbc 15:52:20 not here atm though 15:52:32 heh. i'll stay then, say hello 15:52:49 had some discussions with him on that bf ml a couple of years ago 15:52:59 heh, that one 15:53:02 I'm subscribed to it. 15:53:05 So much german spam. 15:53:11 yea.. 15:53:27 he helped me perfect the brainfuck division algorithm :) 15:53:52 that is [->>+<-[>>>]>[[<+>-]>+>>]<<<<<] 15:54:00 (my initial version was 5 bytes longer or something like that) 15:54:00 :) 15:54:29 he even came up with an even shorter one, but with messed up cell layout 15:56:46 -!- mib_prms12 has set topic: we are not responsible for any losses of limb.. 15:56:57 ah.. so much never-released esolang stuff in my projects folder 15:57:04 i really need a personal homepage or something like that 15:57:08 hehe :) 15:57:16 http://flexotec.eu/~flexo/hanoi2.b.txt 15:57:20 never released that either 15:57:26 (that email address is no longer valid :) 15:57:37 awesome 15:57:51 and my current yapi.b is some bytes shorter than the one in the archive i think 15:58:15 i even found a documented version 15:58:22 but that's a tradesecret 15:58:36 lol 15:59:32 hmmm 15:59:55 and poor pinky was never released too 16:00:24 (a heavy-optimizing brainfuck x86 compiler... afaik the fastest implementation around, by some orders of magnitude..) 16:00:46 really? 16:00:54 flexo: ais523 has been working on gcc-bf 16:00:56 even faster than that optimizing to-c compiler + gcc -O3 16:00:58 It's a gcc backend that outputs brainfuck. 16:01:17 well. i think my compiler should still be faster 16:01:20 flexo: Maybe yours would be useful for handling the 5-thousand->s-in-a-rows it produces ;-) 16:01:25 because compiling brainfuck is more decompilation than compilation 16:01:26 no no no I mean 16:01:27 gcc-bf 16:01:29 compiles C programs 16:01:30 to brainfuck 16:01:32 oh, i see 16:01:47 interesting 16:01:50 but ofc its output is huge as hell 16:01:54 and it's unfinished 16:01:55 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:02:05 i always thought about doing that (a c=>bf compiler, not a gcc backend...) 16:02:09 well 16:02:19 my compiler is quite good at optimizing auto-generated code 16:02:25 C2BF has been done, but badly. 16:02:32 what's problematic are obviously unbalanced loops 16:02:38 gcc-bf, being a gcc backend, should eventually handle just about all conforming C programs 16:02:51 flexo: ais523 has some musings on that 16:02:52 but balanced loops can easily be translated in while loops, if statements, load/store, multiplication and MAC 16:02:54 to optimize the 16:02:56 n 16:02:57 m 16:03:19 http://flexotec.eu/~flexo/triangle.txt 16:03:26 ^ this is what triangle.b looks like after optimization 16:03:32 (this is my IL later compiled to x86 code) 16:03:44 looks pretty good 16:03:48 flexo: there's another optimizing implementation 16:03:51 that does some hardcore optimizations 16:03:53 writen in haskell 16:04:03 lemme find it 16:04:13 flhttp://esolangs.org/files/brainfuck/impl/bf2c.hs 16:04:14 flexo: 16:04:15 http://esolangs.org/files/brainfuck/impl/bf2c.hs 16:04:20 you should steal some of its optimizations ;-) 16:04:23 *could 16:04:35 just 400 lines? 16:04:40 yep 16:04:45 it's Haskell, of course it's concise ;-) 16:04:50 i suppose 16:05:05 most of it is optimizatin 16:05:14 most of my compiler is optimization too... 16:05:16 but 16:05:25 a large part i spend in optimizing the multiplications 16:05:42 (as in... what do i do, MUL, SHL, LEA, or some weird combination?) 16:05:49 :) 16:06:12 can you execute that? 16:06:17 and give me the output for triangle.b? 16:06:26 i'd love to compare - have no haskell implementation installed ofcourse :) 16:06:34 sure 16:07:09 flexo: which triangle.b? 16:07:20 there are more than one? 16:07:26 perhaps not :) 16:07:44 http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/triangle.bf 16:08:05 i renamed all extensions to clarify what exact bf dialect they need.. triangle is portable, hence just "b" ;) 16:08:31 flexo: http://pastie.org/346994.txt?key=wz8d6rjprfvm30diqckiw 16:08:47 that initial comment isn't optimized out, heh 16:09:31 i think my tree is somewhat better 16:09:44 that one doesn't compile to "if" statements 16:09:45 flexo: looks much the same to me. 16:09:53 (and mine removes dead code :) 16:10:11 it also does no constant propagation for the pointer 16:10:14 flexo: yours doesn't remove the first loop. 16:10:22 uhm 16:10:24 it doesn't? 16:10:27 you're right 16:10:29 that's a bug 16:10:30 o.O 16:10:32 XD 16:10:33 it should. 16:10:44 well, i've been messing around with it for the last days 16:10:47 anyway 16:10:51 mine does constant propagation of p 16:10:58 (which is why at the beginning it uses a[]) 16:11:04 and it translates while to if, where possible 16:11:15 flexo: wouldn't a program such as this mess yours up? 16:11:18 ,[-](program) 16:11:23 or would it recognize that [-] sets to 0 16:11:24 no matter what? 16:11:28 yes 16:11:36 flexo: ,[--](program)? 16:11:38 after any loop i know that the current cell must be zero 16:11:41 flexo: ,[-+-](program)? 16:11:47 ah 16:11:49 true :P 16:12:07 flexo: what about 16:12:26 +++>,<[>---<-] 16:12:26 :P 16:12:31 what about it? 16:12:33 i mean 16:12:36 +++>,<[>---<-]>(stuff) 16:12:45 yea.. what about it? 16:12:57 it still knows that p[-1] is 0 16:13:13 if that's what you mean 16:13:18 p[-1]? 16:13:20 itym p[0] 16:13:24 well, after the > it's p[-1] 16:13:30 o.o 16:13:49 p is changed 16:13:55 ok 16:13:59 (this happens only implicitly by those "for" loops) 16:14:06 they represent unbalanced loops 16:14:26 still 16:14:37 quite good optimization 16:14:47 but i'm very certain that my compiler is faster 16:15:03 for the simple reason, that when i translate my IL to C, and let GCC compile it it's much slower 16:15:12 than the IL=>x86 asm translation my compiler does 16:15:24 (depending on the program as much as 50%) 16:15:53 and i haven't even started doing register allocation :) 16:17:58 most of the effort went into determining whether or not a loop will be entered under what conditions (and how many times it runs) 16:18:08 as this usually leads to many subsequent optimizations 16:18:18 (my compiler is very multi-pass-y) 16:18:37 but even the largest bf programs take just 7 passes or so 16:18:53 (due to the huge amount of hacks i have in the compiler, allowing it to never restart a pass...) 16:19:36 -!- mib_prms12 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 16:19:37 interesting though, as i output the assembly via printf() it becomes faster when increasing the optimization level :) 16:19:57 (although compression of >>> and +++ is done at the parser level) 16:20:31 mhmhm 16:20:36 i really want to rewrite it. 16:20:48 this time with some proper CFG representation 16:21:00 maybe even with SSA 16:21:08 and register allocation 16:21:58 yes, i definitly want SSA 16:22:08 right now it's too much hacking around with the IL tree 16:22:18 (there is a reason why those MAC and MULs have to be inside a LOAD...) 16:25:23 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:27:26 but that "proper representation" would still need a tight coupling to the AST 16:27:47 because most useful optimzations for BF must be done on a high level 16:27:49 yea well 16:27:53 just thinking loud :) 16:36:21 -!- ais523|direct has joined. 16:38:08 -!- Judofyr has quit. 16:51:50 -!- mib_lah4lf has joined. 17:01:18 -!- moozilla has joined. 17:03:36 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:08:01 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:08:11 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:09:04 -!- Corun has joined. 17:11:26 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 17:43:23 -!- Corun has joined. 17:43:50 -!- mib_lah4lf has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 18:01:11 -!- moozilla has joined. 18:05:31 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:06:57 -!- moozilla_ has joined. 18:07:01 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:18:45 -!- moozilla_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:25:33 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 18:30:15 i'm going to release a new esolang 18:30:45 i'm writing tutorial 18:30:53 -!- cruce has left (?). 18:52:45 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:01:49 -!- Corun has joined. 19:12:16 -!- moozilla has joined. 19:14:59 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:32:41 -!- AnMaster has left (?). 19:32:46 -!- AnMaster has joined. 19:32:48 grr 19:32:51 wrong button 19:33:00 ah, parted #esoteric by mistake? 19:33:04 yes 19:33:12 was trying to part firefox 19:33:12 Mony: I look forward to seeing it 19:33:22 and esoteric was the one entry before in the list 19:33:28 so misclick 19:33:41 :) 19:36:28 * AnMaster goes to edit firefox files manually 19:38:37 AnMaster, why not install a "real" IRC client, like mIRC or XChat ? 19:38:50 Mony, what? 19:38:53 I use erc 19:38:59 I was talking about parting #firefox 19:39:02 Mony: I think AnMaster was trying to part #firefox 19:39:04 vs. parting #esoteric 19:39:05 and closed the wrong channel by mistake 19:39:07 ais523|direct, indeed 19:39:11 and AnMaster just confirmed that 19:39:12 heh... 19:39:12 exactly what happened 19:39:13 sorry 19:39:18 what did you think? 19:39:27 chatsilly or what? 19:39:31 yes 19:39:43 i thank you used chatzilla 19:39:55 thank? 19:40:05 thought, presumably 19:40:05 think* 19:40:16 ah 19:40:23 sink/sank, but think/thought, English is weird 19:40:27 eww 19:40:35 prefs.js 19:40:36 is 19:40:36 i don't remember the word -_- 19:40:37 a mess 19:40:57 yah that's it ais523... "tought" 19:41:02 the perfect is changing to thunk, but thank i haven't heard yet 19:41:02 wtf why are there hundreds of entries like: user_pref("print.tmp.printerfeatures.CUPS/HPPSC2175.can_change_colorspace", false); 19:41:06 thought* 19:41:17 .tmp? 19:41:24 if that is temporary why is it saved 19:41:42 my english is really crappy sometimes 19:41:43 it's actually a German grammar file, ending .TimeMannerPlace, just they abbreviated it 19:42:09 ais523|direct, file? 19:42:14 Mony: don't worry, I'm used to it, non-English English is much more logical than English English... 19:42:14 hm 19:42:21 ah 19:42:21 AnMaster: I was trying very hard to come up with a plausible explanation 19:42:23 but failing 19:42:27 ais523|direct, right 19:44:01 blargs 19:44:43 blargs? 19:48:05 nice firefox profile contains 2 types of databases: BDB and sqlite 19:48:09 why not use one system.... 19:49:03 oh and bookmarks is a html file 19:49:12 kind of... 19:49:15 "" 19:49:24 SGML 19:49:25 not HTML 19:49:31 ah that even 19:49:42 rare to see SGML outside HTML, though, everyone uses XML instead nowadays 19:49:44 ais523|direct, err semi-html 19:49:45 19:49:46 Bookmarks 19:49:55

19:49:55

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19:49:55
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19:49:57 and so on 19:50:01 ... 19:50:05 that isn't HTML, it says so 19:50:10 but it certainly looks like HTML 19:50:15 ais523|direct, exactly! 19:50:25 it's probably to do with things like PERSONAL_TOOLBAR_FOLDER="true", that isn't HTML either 19:50:34 indeed 19:50:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:50:59 -!- ais523|direct has changed nick to ais523. 19:51:14 ais523, but it does have certain html like parts, such as element names 19:51:43 probably based on HTML, but then customised to taste 19:52:04 * ais523 reminds themself not to use idioms which are rare even in English 19:58:17 here it is 19:58:18 http://mony.servhome.org/esolang/h0rR0r.html 19:58:36 * ais523 never really liked l33t-speak 19:58:40 i have to go, i will be back soon i think, or maybe tomorrow 19:59:08 do you have any sort of loops? 19:59:13 that looks to me like a slightly more useful version of Deadfish 19:59:42 ah 19:59:48 i impleted goto 20:00:01 hum... 20:00:22 -!- Judofyr has joined. 20:00:32 i added goto 20:01:04 but, there is some time ago, i don't really remember how they work 20:01:35 bye 20:01:36 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:01:40 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 20:09:12 has anyone played with a self-parsing language? 20:09:21 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:10:10 as in defining syntax on-the-go 20:10:17 I've played with Perk 20:10:19 *Perl 20:10:23 although that isn't exactly an esolang 20:10:45 -!- mib_1svng6 has joined. 20:11:01 * oerjan recalls oklopol's oklotalk does something like that 20:11:04 * mib_1svng6 ponders how to word (shark swallows: fish) with a message in front of shark. 20:11:16 (swallow: fish by: shark)? 20:11:20 err 20:11:26 (shark swallow: fish) is what i'm trying to do 20:11:58 mib_1svng6: I'd prefer Smalltalk-style functions if it was function argname1: arg1 argname2: arg2 20:12:06 rather than just function: arg1 argname2: arg2 20:12:13 it can read weirdly the way it's done 20:14:19 that is not an option. 20:16:02 maybe (swallow: shark the: fish) 20:18:58 -!- moozilla has joined. 20:22:07 hm. 20:26:59 -!- jix has joined. 20:31:03 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:31:40 http://pastie.org/347087.txt?key=7nq72c67tfr5dibntn0w 20:31:45 My work-in-progress language. 20:31:50 It's prototype-based but also multimethod. 20:32:00 Everything there is a regular method call -- no special syntax -- well ,except for the comment. 20:32:38 aargh, that looks like a mix between Smalltalk and C 20:32:52 no 20:32:56 it's mainly based off Io 20:32:59 http://iolanguage.com/ 20:33:07 I'm not saying what it is, just what it looks like, visually 20:33:20 only when you don't know how it works 20:38:41 aha, I figured out the correct way 20:38:49 the: shark swallows: fish 20:38:51 i think 20:39:02 that looks so ugly 20:39:13 to have to use "the:" as part of a function name just to make it parse as English 20:39:18 it's what INTERCAL would do, or COBOL 20:39:22 your opinion is well-argued, interesting and relevant. I will take notice of it. 20:51:00 Is it just me, or is ehird missing a lot of opportunities to make fun of me? 20:51:38 Sgeo: that was a dangerous statement to make 20:51:43 either that, or he's got you on ignore 20:51:54 anyway, I need only mention PSOX and the whole channel will come down laughing again, presumably 20:51:55 or not? 20:54:16 +ul (BW)S((AH)S:^):^ 20:54:26 hey! 20:54:30 ^ul (BW)S((AH)S:^):^ 20:54:30 BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH ...too much output! 20:55:55 SgeoIs it just me, or is ehird missing a lot of opportunities to make fun of me? 20:55:56 howso? 20:56:02 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:56:23 ehird, in another channel, I was talking about a game I wanted to clone 20:56:32 * oerjan swats the raw tab character -----### 20:56:42 Sgeo: and? 20:57:10 I mentioned how so far, I duplicated the appearance of one of the items, and how I have absolutely no creativity 20:57:30 but ehird wasn't in that channel, how could he make fun of you on the basis of that until you told him? 20:57:43 also, thutubot's down because eso-std.org is 20:57:48 ah 20:57:49 maybe I should get it running on another server 20:58:04 ais523, you know why eso-std.org's down, right? 20:58:14 gnomes. 20:58:16 infinite gnomes. 20:58:18 they killed it. 20:58:22 it was tragic. really. 20:58:24 -!- puzzlet has joined. 20:58:25 it screamed. 20:58:27 oh god did it scream. 20:58:31 and... sniff 20:58:32 Sgeo: yes, ehird wiped it and hasn't installed any software on there yet 20:58:32 I will... sniff 20:58:34 never... sniff 20:58:35 FORGET IT 20:58:36 sniff 20:58:51 ais523, you know why ehird wiped it? 20:59:07 wait, was that the dread chmod -R ? 20:59:13 no, it was a deliberate wipe 20:59:19 ehird thought it had got too crufty 20:59:24 and wanted to do a mass package uninstall 20:59:24 * Sgeo assumed it was the chmod -R 20:59:40 * Sgeo wipes assumptions 20:59:57 infinite gnomes, would that be gnomegas? 21:00:18 languages need more complex syntax 21:00:30 there's nearly no ambiguous syntax out there 21:00:38 except for my languages, but i don't get them finished, so. 21:01:05 -!- mib_1svng6 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 21:01:05 * oerjan swats some time flies -----### 21:01:21 -!- mib_vg1sr6 has joined. 21:02:09 * oerjan flies like a banana 21:02:34 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 21:02:52 oklotalk can parse itself 21:03:00 *ouch* really bad aerodynamics 21:03:03 but i think feather is the coolest self-parser sofar 21:03:38 also ais523 is here, cool. unfortunately i'm busy soon 21:03:42 yes, but it hurts even my brain, and I invented it! 21:03:46 * oerjan invents Banana Feather, it sort of fits in here 21:03:53 AAAAARRRGH! 21:04:08 * ais523 's head spouts smoke 21:04:08 i would've harrassed you about continuous brainfuck 21:04:17 continuous BF? 21:04:23 it even fits with the gnomegas 21:04:27 tried oerjan, but he prefers his bf discrete :< 21:04:28 ais523: yes 21:04:58 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:04:59 I'd ask how continuous BF works, but I g2g 21:05:21 you can start these scopes which are like []'s, but incs and decs inside them work with differentials, considering everything outside the loop infinitely greater than one + or - inside it will add 21:05:44 * oerjan thinks a banana could fly with enough gnome-gas in it 21:05:45 basically you have an infinite descent of differentials, each infinitely smaller than the last 21:06:00 uh-oh, I see what you mean now, and that's pretty esoteric 21:06:10 it sort of is to BF as nopol is to digital logic 21:06:13 * oerjan watches the universe implode from pun overload 21:06:16 yeah, old idea, but i think i know what went wrong last time 21:06:42 ais523: err :P 21:06:51 i'm not sure what nopol and digital logic have in common 21:07:10 well, nopol and ordinary logic then 21:07:13 can't quite put your finger on it? 21:07:24 oerjan: i don't have fingers 21:07:40 ais523: nopol isn't that illogical 21:07:48 * oerjan always suspected oklopol was a tentacled being 21:08:15 oklopol: no, but it uses continuous probabilities, rather than discrete logic levels 21:08:16 the l's are just deceptions 21:08:17 IIRC 21:08:19 that's what I was trying to get at 21:08:30 ais523: that's noprob! 21:08:34 ah, ok 21:08:39 wrong lang, sorry 21:08:41 I get confused... 21:08:48 nopol is a list-rewriting language based on lambda calculus and the nopular paradigm 21:09:10 *argh* 21:09:31 nopular sounds like a skin disorder 21:10:15 ais523: actually that may not be an accurate analogy either, anymore, i'm redesigning noprob to be more discrete 21:10:33 * oerjan finds no google hit that isn't a misspelling of popular, or nonsensical 21:10:46 i mean, i think so. i've had a lot of ideas, but i can't really seem to get the whole to work. 21:11:04 oerjan: nopular = based on nop 21:11:49 -ul- is otherwise a diminutive suffix 21:11:53 ais523: actually i will harrass you a bit, although about something else. just warning you because i've seen AnMaster do it, and he's my idol i want to be like him. 21:12:01 oerjan: in what language 21:12:04 latin 21:12:14 ?? 21:12:31 AnMaster: you were a victim of the random. 21:12:35 sorry about that. 21:12:50 oklopol does random acts of praise? 21:13:53 oerjan: i do random everything 21:15:11 oklopol: 21:15:11 oklopol: 21:15:15 oklopol: oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol 21:15:51 :o 21:15:57 mememememememememememememememe 21:16:06 oklopol: 21:16:12 :o 21:16:13 mememe is the new meme for me 21:22:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 21:31:14 -!- moozilla has joined. 21:33:35 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:35:16 hmm. 21:35:17 so. 21:35:20 Sgeo isn't a player right 21:35:36 mib_vg1sr6: ##nomic? 21:35:41 no. :D 21:35:46 Okay. 21:35:48 lazy 21:35:51 Why wouldn't he be a player? 21:36:05 only outsiders can become players 21:36:12 and he wasn't an outsider 21:36:15 just an external force 21:36:17 wait 21:36:21 he registered just before era 5 21:36:23 OK then 21:38:28 * oerjan trusts that this makes sense somehow 21:38:44 oerjan: it makes sense in context; however, the context itself does not make sense 21:39:27 gnerp 21:41:30 The context itself makes plenty of sense. 21:43:01 B Nomic does not make sense. 21:47:05 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 21:47:48 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:57:16 -!- GregorR has joined. 21:57:34 Since when does xchat crash all the effing time X_X 21:58:02 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 21:59:28 GregorR: since it sucks wang 21:59:32 (forever) 22:22:52 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:31:37 -!- moozilla has joined. 22:49:32 -!- Asztal has joined. 22:49:47 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:12:37 -!- jix has joined. 23:19:26 -!- Judofyr has joined. 23:42:29 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:43:12 -!- moozilla has joined. 23:45:55 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 2008-12-27: 00:00:16 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:03:18 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:17:27 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 00:17:54 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 00:24:49 -!- Corun has joined. 00:28:31 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:29:21 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:31:23 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 00:51:23 o 00:52:08 -!- moozilla has joined. 01:04:16 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:06:36 -!- mib_vg1sr6 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 01:08:02 oko 01:21:26 ooooo 01:21:41 opopopo 01:30:14 koko 01:35:29 size 01:35:38 assize 01:42:47 Assassinate. 01:47:52 basmati senate 01:47:56 sleep! -> 01:49:11 Etanissassa. 01:49:14 A tiny saucer. 01:52:27 -!- ais523 has quit. 02:04:05 -!- moozilla has joined. 02:06:31 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:06:55 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:59:37 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 03:00:11 -!- Corun has joined. 03:01:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:03:22 -!- moozilla has joined. 03:21:06 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:24:32 -!- Corun has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:24:59 -!- Corun has joined. 03:31:45 -!- Corun has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:34:06 -!- Corun has joined. 04:23:51 -!- moozilla has joined. 04:26:11 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:18:42 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:26:57 -!- moozilla has joined. 05:27:28 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:35:34 -!- moozilla_ has joined. 05:35:36 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 05:46:10 -!- moozilla_ has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 06:03:33 -!- Corun has joined. 06:17:23 -!- moozilla has joined. 06:20:00 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:05:25 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 07:05:57 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Nick collision from services.). 07:06:15 -!- seveninchbread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 07:13:24 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:14:15 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 07:14:54 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Nick collision from services.). 07:15:04 -!- seveninchbread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 07:36:23 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 07:36:51 -!- Corun has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:29:23 -!- SpaceMan has joined. 08:29:32 -!- SpaceMan has quit (Client Quit). 08:29:52 -!- Mony has joined. 08:30:30 -!- SpaceMan has joined. 08:30:50 -!- SpaceMan has quit (Client Quit). 08:31:56 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has joined. 08:32:27 plop guys :) 08:32:36 hi. 08:32:56 how are you ? 08:32:56 im using a homebrew app 08:33:15 i created a new esoteric language 08:35:41 im going to browse esilang, bye 08:35:43 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has quit (Client Quit). 08:52:36 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has joined. 08:53:29 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has quit (Client Quit). 10:15:34 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 10:48:39 -!- Corun has joined. 12:04:41 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:05:49 -!- LinuS has joined. 12:05:53 -!- Linus` has joined. 12:05:59 -!- Linus` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:31:48 -!- Judofyr has quit. 12:33:12 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 15:30:34 -!- Asztal has joined. 15:48:28 -!- mib_c2zegu has joined. 15:58:56 -!- oklopol has joined. 16:01:22 -!- oklopol has set topic: THIS IS THE LINK TO THE LOGS >>> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ <<< IT'S FUCKING ANNOYING HAVING TO GOOGLE IT ALL THE TIME, IF SOMEONE REMOVES IT AGAIN, I WILL put it back. 16:07:41 -!- mib_c2zegu has set topic: I love your mom. 16:12:22 -!- oklopol has set topic: THIS IS THE LINK TO THE LOGS >>> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ <<< IT'S FUCKING ANNOYING HAVING TO GOOGLE IT ALL THE TIME, IF SOMEONE REMOVES IT AGAIN, I WILL put it back. 16:12:52 hum... 16:12:56 hi oklopol :p 16:13:00 hi Mony 16:13:19 did you see my esolang ? 16:13:24 yep 16:13:30 it's my very first esolang so ... 16:14:06 relink it if you want a comment, i don't remember much, since it wasn't fundamentally different from the mass 16:14:27 (not much is) 16:14:40 here it is http://mony.servhome.org/esolang/h0rR0r.html 16:16:34 and a goto was added right? 16:16:46 yah 16:16:57 but i don't remember how they work -_- 16:17:03 haha 16:17:36 in fact, i made this esolangs some weeks ago 16:17:45 well, comment on that subset, it doesn't really have any computational powah 16:17:54 do you have bignums 16:18:09 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:18:17 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:20:11 bignums ? 16:23:13 http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001201.html Whine whine whine bitch bitch bitch. I wish Jeff Atwood would just go die or something. 16:30:49 i didn't find that all that annoying 17:12:53 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:02:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:02:58 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:03:18 what a horrible threat 18:03:32 yes 18:03:38 well done oklopol for setting that 18:03:49 -!- mib_c2zegu has set topic: BLOOD AND FIRE. 18:04:35 * oerjan hits mib_c2zegu with the saucepan ====\___/ 18:05:00 -!- ais523 has set topic: THIS IS THE LINK TO THE LOGS >>> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ <<< IT'S FUCKING ANNOYING HAVING TO GOOGLE IT ALL THE TIME, IF SOMEONE REMOVES IT AGAIN, oklopol WILL put it back. 18:05:26 -!- mib_c2zegu has set topic: oklopol SHALL change this topic. 18:05:40 -!- mib_c2zegu has set topic: oklopol SHALL change this topic. everyone else SHALL NOT. 18:06:39 * Mony hits plop with the saucepan ====\___/ 18:06:41 -!- oerjan has set topic: oklopol SHALL change this topic. everyone else SHALL NOT. or ELSE.. 18:06:43 \o/ 18:06:55 -!- ais523 has set topic: THIS IS THE LINK TO THE LOGS >>> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ <<< IT'S FUCKING ANNOYING HAVING TO GOOGLE IT ALL THE TIME, IF SOMEONE [probably ehird] REMOVES IT AGAIN, SOMEONE [quite possibly oklopol] WILL put it back. 18:07:02 oerjan: or else they'll be me 18:08:35 :-D 18:08:44 btw j is pretty awesome, have i mentioned 18:08:55 oklopol: i'm pretty sure 18:08:55 possibly, I know ehird mentions it often enough 18:09:03 hmm. does he now? 18:09:28 well. he should, since it's pretty awesome. 18:10:09 also building about 1000 pages of tutorial labs into the interpreter kinda makes it hard to lazy out of learning the language 18:10:23 i mean i can just start the interp, and "hmm. what should i do? oh! maybe read another lab." 18:10:54 and you can play with the language as you go, test all the things you learn, because the lab runs in the repl 18:10:59 that's pretty awesome too. 18:11:13 * oklopol continues, more random praise in a moment. 18:11:44 hrmph. 18:14:54 j cures malaria and prevents babies from crying. it also can be usedas a laundry detergent. 18:22:26 (*:^:_1) 4 <<< *: is square, ^:_1 applies it minus i times; evaluates to 2 18:22:40 ^:_1 applies it minus i times 18:22:41 wat 18:22:42 *minus 1 times 18:23:27 (*:^:7) 2 would be *: *: *: *: *: *: *: 2 18:23:45 (*:^:_1) 4 is naturally the square root of 4 18:23:53 how can you apply negative times 18:24:01 through magic :D 18:24:03 grr... J should stop looking like Underload, it's confusing me 18:24:14 i'm assuming a verb can contain info about how to negate its effects 18:24:39 this is mainly used for conjunctions that first apply ^:1 of a verb, then ^:_1 18:25:22 for instance stuff like geometric mean can be done by having the stages of squaring and square rooting kinda wrapped over the part where you just do arithmetic mean 18:25:30 in quite a pretty way 18:26:04 because you don't have to provide squaring and square rooting separately, just the square will do as long as it knows how it's effects are negated 18:27:24 also i don't know how to specify the function for negating a function, or how to specify other things functions can have, like units (0 for + and 1 for *) 18:27:31 oklopol, talking about reversible programs or? 18:27:47 and i don't know whether you can add concepts like this yourself, i'm assuming you can't, but wouldn't be the first surprise 18:27:55 AnMaster: not really 18:27:59 ah 18:28:01 what then? 18:28:10 reversible functions, I think 18:28:28 oh? Sounds quite similar, if you have the result you can get the arguments 18:28:33 being able to annotate functions with certain info higher-order functions need. 18:29:09 not the same thing, reversible programming would require the language to be able to look inside functions, and do algebra 18:29:11 however lots of functions can't be reversed, just consider additions, you have to know at least two of: a + b = c, to get the third 18:29:14 i mean 18:29:21 making functions reversible 18:29:32 if the language is reversible, that's a whole another issue of course 18:29:53 AnMaster: yes. but you're missing the point 18:29:57 oklopol, there is an reversible programming language at the esolang wiki iirc 18:29:59 forgot the name 18:30:05 2D iirc 18:30:11 there are many, 18:30:16 has nothing to do with this. 18:30:16 ok 18:30:19 hm ok 18:30:33 this is about... well i just said 18:30:37 being able to annotate functions with certain info higher-order functions need. 18:30:49 oklopol, and that isn't very clear 18:31:03 yes it is. 18:31:13 i'm elaborating, be patient. things like what / (fold) should use as the unit when given an empty list as arg 18:31:20 + has 0, * has 1 18:31:33 so +/ 0$0 would be 0, and */ 0$0 would be 1 18:31:41 hm 18:31:45 (0$0 is just a hacky way to make an empty list) 18:31:56 oklopol, what language is this? 18:32:02 this is J 18:32:05 spec? 18:32:23 jsoftware.com 18:32:26 is the spec closed-source, or just the implementation? 18:32:34 i don't know and i don't care 18:32:37 clicky: http://www.jsoftware.com/ 18:32:49 now watch AnMaster rant about how much it sucks because its' closed 18:33:27 AnMaster: reversability here was just an example of something you can annotate a function with: have another function to reverse it with, somehow stored with the function 18:33:50 hm 18:33:57 is this an esolang or? 18:34:00 no. 18:34:05 you could have clicked the link... 18:34:07 it's meant to be serious, it acts a bit like an esolang now 18:34:16 mib_c2zegu, I was waiting for browser to load 18:34:17 ... 18:34:22 I see many similarities with Overload, for instance, although also differences 18:34:27 Slow computer. 18:34:28 J's a lot faster, for one thing, and has more syntax 18:34:47 mib_c2zegu, rather: fast computer rendering images with raytracing 18:35:01 J's syntax seems very clever, it solves some of the problems i was struggling with with oklotalk simply better than i did 18:35:06 so result is slow for everything else 18:35:09 and i don't admit that easily 18:35:38 I think J is a non-esolang that does well at solving many of the problems in implementing an oklotalk/Overload-style esolang (something multiple people here have obviously thought of) 18:35:56 hm 18:36:40 well one of J's greatest benefits is having an incredible amount of *algorithmic* modules 18:36:56 i mean, yeah, java and python have a million networking modules. who gives a shit. 18:38:04 or, at least if the small subset i've seen is, in fact, a small subset and not most of it :P 18:40:21 oklopol, that is probably because J and Java try to solve different problems 18:43:40 true. j solves all problems, while java doesn't. 18:43:44 :-) 18:45:09 i don't know much about j's module facilities. there's a lab about Object Oriented Programming though, and i'm sure j + oo is better than not j + oo. 18:49:51 (to be honest i'm pretty sure it's really ugly) 18:50:03 which VPS host do you guys use? 18:50:29 slicehost.com 18:50:40 it's el greato maximus 18:50:42 ah, good, I was just looking at those 18:51:00 _0x44 from ##nomic works there :-) 18:55:41 mib_c2zegu: is that a permanent nick? 18:56:17 oklopol: what? 18:56:36 no, ehird's just using random mibbit links atm 18:56:50 because for some reason he seems not to like using an IRC client but not a bouncer 18:56:57 lazy 18:57:02 my irc client is configured to my bouncer 18:57:22 reconfiguring a client is easier than using Mibbit, IMO 18:58:10 so. no. 18:58:16 cmd-n mibbit enter click click Freenode click esoteric type click 18:58:17 vs 18:58:34 mib_c2zegu: wanna know something mind-blowing? 18:58:39 look thru menus, connections, delete, add, freenode, irc.freenode.net, add #esoteric, click, connect 18:58:40 assuming i didn't tell you yet. 18:58:43 oklopol: sure 18:58:45 vs F2 alt-e irc.freenode.net enter enter 18:58:52 which is all it took to reconfigure my client 18:59:06 ais523: that does not join #esoteric. 18:59:07 although I went through the menus because I forgot the keyboard shortcuts, so two clicks not F2 18:59:12 mib_c2zegu: yes it does 18:59:14 also, I don't memorize the shortcuts for reconfiguring my irc client. 18:59:18 crazy I know. 18:59:22 my client was set up to join #esoteric by default beforehand 18:59:27 ais523: that's cheating. 18:59:29 i tried a version control system 18:59:30 mine wasn't. 18:59:31 via the bouncer 18:59:35 oklopol: holy fuck. which one 18:59:37 please say git 19:04:24 nope 19:04:30 i was just the user of the system 19:04:34 used tortoisesvn 19:04:51 oklopol: svn is kinda suck :{ 19:04:52 there are some development models svn is good for 19:05:00 I've only once been in a situation where svn was useful, though 19:05:03 ais523: and they all work just as well with a dvcs 19:05:05 and used it on more projects than one 19:05:12 mib_c2zegu: pretty much, yes 19:05:17 cvcs's are an inferior subset of dvcs's 19:05:37 although #interhack are using a dvcs, when they really need a cvcs I think 19:05:49 at least, you get in trouble for doing something a cvcs couldn't do 19:05:52 ais523: no; they just have a bad development model 19:05:53 hey. at least i liked it. meaning i might even try the other options. 19:05:54 :P 19:06:01 oklopol: you liked it? hoshit :D 19:06:12 oklopol is turning into an enterprise programmer :< 19:06:16 :DD 19:06:55 hey i'm moving from python to j now, clearly i'm struggling against it 19:07:02 lo 19:07:03 l 19:07:38 well actually i thought i'd start my language learning spree over, but this time actually learn the languages instead of just enough to forget it right away 19:08:01 and j and haskell are first 19:08:08 hee 19:08:31 * ais523 thinks there should be a lang like J, but more tinkerable 19:08:35 well haskell i know much better than i did j of course 19:09:39 j is tinkerable, no? 19:09:48 yes, but you can always get more tinkerable 19:10:15 can you elaborate on tinkerable 19:10:41 like, able to change things about the language 19:10:43 like syntax 19:11:39 mib_c2zegu: what was the thing i was trying to solve in j? 19:11:45 when we had the whole #j episode 19:11:57 oklopol: err, factorial with @ or something 19:12:35 (#j has both an autoinvite on part, and autoban on join-flood, it's a fun channel to part considering i have autojoin on invite :DD) 19:12:54 autoinvite on part? why? 19:13:06 ais523: because quakenet 19:13:14 could you elaborate? 19:13:18 well it's inhabited by gamers 19:13:39 i dunno. just seems like a very quakenety thing to do 19:13:45 hmm... does the autoinvite do anything but cause people to rejoin the channel? 19:13:57 it asks them to rejoin 19:13:59 obviously 19:14:03 with an invite 19:14:06 ais523: it may cause them to rejoin if their clients are like that 19:14:08 very quakenet, I agree 19:14:08 I mean, anything else? 19:14:11 ais523: no 19:14:19 the invite doesn't let them join voiced, for instance? 19:14:21 otherwise it does nothing, because why would someone rejoin if they just parted 19:14:40 ais523: it's just to get them to come back. 19:15:15 ais523: i doubt that, they should be voiced if Q-bot considers them worthy 19:17:34 mib_c2zegu: the reason for why i couldn't get it to work is @: is function composition, and the @ i used is actually not, it has a small difference, it uses the rank of the latter verb for both verbs 19:17:54 rank is kinda like whether arguments are of type [a] or [[a]]. 19:18:02 yes you said 19:18:03 or just a 19:18:09 well yes 19:18:12 but i didn't actually know :P 19:18:15 now i do 19:18:27 it was just a sophisticated guess back then 19:18:46 i guess that's a bit irrelevant from your perspective. 19:35:37 -!- oerjan has quit ("Trying a reboot"). 19:39:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:13:01 so, tonight, programming or algorithms? 20:13:29 programming 20:13:34 documentation 20:13:50 * oerjan cackles evilly 20:14:36 oerjan: not much difference :< 20:14:50 programming is documentating YOUR MOTHER 20:15:32 RIR 20:17:44 RIR? 20:19:51 RIRIRIR 20:27:30 -!- Judofyr has joined. 20:27:34 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:28:04 -!- Judofyr has joined. 20:48:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:57:54 o 20:58:27 oko 21:02:30 oko 21:02:34 o 21:02:37 o 21:02:41 oko 21:02:43 okoko 21:02:50 okokoko 21:02:52 oko 21:03:26 okokokokoko 21:03:31 o 21:03:38 okoko 21:03:42 oko 21:03:44 o 21:04:26 okookokk 21:04:41 kookook 21:05:07 ok?ok!Ok. 21:05:21 Ook? Ook! 21:05:29 let's play Nim with okos 21:05:49 * Sgeo should probably look up Ni, 21:05:51 Nim 21:05:57 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:05:57 it's a good game, and very simple 21:06:04 basically, you start with a certain number of piles of objects 21:06:07 okos in this case 21:06:15 players take turns to remove objects from a pile 21:06:24 as in, you can remove any number of objects but they all have to be in the same pile 21:06:30 whoever takes the last object loses 21:06:54 Isn't Nim solved or something? 21:06:58 yes 21:07:18 yes, it is, that's why I'll beat you at it 21:07:27 unless you start in a winning position and either have also solved it, or are lucky 21:07:52 you have to be exponentially lucky 21:08:12 yes 21:08:25 You'd be the one choosing who goes first? 21:08:32 * Sgeo is looking at it on Wikipedia 21:08:38 no 21:08:46 err. 21:08:54 yeah that's not enough 21:08:55 if I choose who goes first and there are two players, I'll win unless I screw up really badly 21:09:03 even if someone else chose the board before that 21:09:09 i.e. the starting position 21:09:26 now, is it pspace-complete if you have two stacks? 21:09:37 huh? 21:10:07 i would imagine it is logspace 21:10:09 oerjan: well in pspace, but not known to be in np, isn't that the usual game classification 21:10:20 hmm 21:10:20 far below pspace 21:10:30 the strategy for winning it is O(log n), where n's the largest stack you have remaining 21:10:42 hmm 21:11:27 by stack you mean pile? 21:11:29 hmm. yeah okay it doesn't really make the game more interesting 21:11:43 oerjan: umm. well yes 21:11:44 oerjan: yes 21:11:50 oh, ais523 21:11:57 oh, me too 21:12:23 hmm. 21:12:30 how about some kinda graph... 21:12:54 see hackenbush, i think 21:13:15 no that's just either the original or multiple stacks if you can cut it into a forest 21:13:21 hackenbush? k 21:14:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackenbush 21:15:19 and sprouts 21:15:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprouts_(game) 21:15:59 sprouts with oko wouldn't really work 21:16:51 * oerjan once played sprouts with conway in person 21:17:14 who won? 21:17:17 and wow 21:17:17 of course i lost, since i hadn't seen the game before 21:18:10 * oerjan hasn't really tried learning it since either 21:18:50 brussels sprouts always has the same winner no matter who plays where 21:18:59 :D 21:20:12 ahh, hackenbrush is essentially my graph idea, except when split into components, some components are removed from the game 21:20:29 == nim -> game 21:20:45 oerjan: how come you've seen a celebrity? 21:21:21 he was giving a lecture in seattle when i was there during my ph.d. 21:22:43 and afterwards there were some discussions in the institute's lunch room 21:23:11 (the lecture was on surreal numbers iirc) 21:23:58 you have an awesome life 21:25:10 oklopol: was that sentence an attempt at alphanumeric-only oko? 21:30:17 ...yes of course 21:31:07 so 21:31:09 what if 21:31:11 o 21:31:15 o's were 21:31:16 umm 21:31:21 on the ground 21:31:59 and a word, "xozy", for instance, meant the graph consisting of the characters of english, contained the path xozy 21:32:08 linking x, o, z and y 21:32:26 so you could eodermdrome hackenbrush 21:32:40 now if you mix scrabble into that... 21:32:48 :P 21:32:50 oh wait 21:33:00 nim is still an incomplete game if everyone can remove any line? 21:33:04 hmm. 21:33:21 what do you mean incomplete? 21:33:35 an incomplete game, trivial 21:33:52 dunno. 21:33:55 hmm 21:33:59 see the sprague-grundy theorem linked from the hackenbush article 21:34:29 ah 21:34:31 ! 21:34:50 not that that implies complete triviality. sprouts hasn't been completely solved despite being theoretically under that theorem 21:35:04 alright 21:35:40 oooooooooo 21:35:52 now 21:35:59 *boom* 21:36:20 the red-blue-(green) hackenbush described is sort of to get conway's general games rather than just nimbers 21:36:25 how about someone start the game, the obvious scrabble rule is you can only use english words when doing transformations 21:36:55 (or so i assume, i haven't actually read that book) 21:53:50 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 21:54:10 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:54:13 hi Judofyr_ 21:54:41 hi :-) 21:54:43 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 21:54:53 wazzzzzzup? 21:55:06 the sky 21:55:18 oh 21:55:30 duh. 21:55:53 what book should I buy from Amazon? 21:55:57 say one 21:55:59 a good one 21:56:06 one\na good one 21:56:08 > 21:56:14 err how abou 21:56:15 t 21:56:20 Enterprise Esoteric Programming: From Brainfuck to Underload 21:56:24 by Fake T. Name 21:56:37 I would love that book! 21:56:45 yes! 21:56:48 * mib_c2zegu = ehird 21:56:52 so would I 21:57:00 I should write a book about esolangs 21:57:00 pity it doesn't exist 21:57:02 it'd be awesome. 21:57:12 actually, I think it might be interesting to convert Esolang the wiki into book form 21:57:25 mib_c2zegu: why the heck are you mib_c2zegu and not ehird? 21:57:31 together with commentary 21:57:36 Judofyr: mibbit 21:57:37 and explanations 21:57:47 Judofyr: because he's too lazy to change the default nick, even with /nick 21:58:03 ais523: better idea: cite it with little footnotes in the book, except have it reference it as saying stuff entirely different from what it does 21:58:04 ah 21:58:08 understandable 21:58:26 mib_c2zegu: why? 21:58:30 that would mean a lot more writing 21:58:34 ais523: because that's esoteric 21:58:41 also, writing a book about esolangs sounds fun 21:58:50 (so does playing with its typography for 7 years) 21:59:14 brb 21:59:21 the toilet needs me 21:59:59 uh, thanks. 22:02:18 back! 22:02:26 but seriously, a good book? 22:02:34 sicp :-P 22:02:39 right now I got SICP and The Little Schemer in my cart :P 22:02:51 and the From NAND to Tetris-book 22:02:55 enterprise javabean development with struts 22:02:57 well everyone needs rwh 22:03:05 oh yeah, throw in rwh 22:03:10 rwh? 22:03:14 rwh. 22:03:14 real world haskell 22:03:18 http://www.realworldhaskell.org/ 22:03:19 ah 22:03:29 -!- mib_c2zegu has set topic: functional programming weenies.. 22:03:57 hm... haskell? 22:03:58 really? 22:04:02 what about it? 22:04:05 -!- oklopol has set topic: functional programming weenies. also THIS IS THE LINK TO THE LOGS >>> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ <<< IT'S FUCKING ANNOYING HAVING TO GOOGLE IT ALL THE TIME, IF SOMEONE REMOVES IT AGAIN, I WILL put it back. 22:04:06 haskell is cool. 22:04:52 I like Haskell 22:05:07 btw, anyone know how to write a recursive function with base case inside the GHCi REPL? 22:05:12 it's easy enough in an actual program 22:05:17 func 0 = ... 22:05:20 func x = ... 22:05:23 ais523: ; 22:05:23 but that doesn't work inside the REPL 22:05:25 instead of \n 22:05:28 actually 22:05:31 you can do \n too 22:05:32 let func 0 = ... 22:05:35 let func x = ... 22:05:40 IIRC I tried that 22:05:45 and the second definition overwrote the first 22:05:48 oh, right 22:05:50 and I got a syntax error when I used a ; 22:05:51 well do the first first! 22:05:57 let func 0 = ...; func x = ... 22:06:06 ah, that might be it 22:06:07 yeah 22:06:08 do that 22:06:10 it is it 22:06:10 :P 22:07:34 o 22:07:41 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:09:41 I'm thinking of buy Programming in Lua 22:09:55 what you think about Lua? 22:10:03 Lua is alright, but I wouldn't buy a book about it 22:10:34 I wouldn't buy a book about most langs, though 22:10:38 I'd just download a free one 22:10:48 I would buy a book about my language! Despite there not existing one! <.< 22:11:08 * ais523 remembers the fun he had trying to cite in an academic paper a book he downloaded via the Debian/Ubuntu repos 22:11:13 "published on the Internet, but not the Web" 22:11:33 you know, with all those fingerprints "Practical Befunge" almost sounds like a reasonable idea 22:11:39 yes 22:11:48 I should write Practical Befunge. 22:11:49 and INTERCAL is almost practical, it just needs better string-handling 22:11:53 In fact, I should just write a series of books on esolangs. 22:11:59 Who wouldn't buy them? 22:12:13 They would, of course, treat the subject entirely seriously. 22:12:16 :D 22:12:31 and Underlambda is meant to be practical eventually, once I finish it 22:12:34 okey. more books I *really* should read! 22:12:41 'night 22:12:44 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 22:13:27 Judofyr: algorithm design is a pretty fun book 22:13:29 it's evil to say goodbye before you can respond :-( 22:13:55 Mony is like that, plops in and 'nights out, doesn't have a care in the world 22:14:07 Judofyr: i kept seeing Concepts Techniques and Models of Computer Programming recommended when i was following Lambda The Ultimate 22:14:10 probably an /amsg 22:14:56 i recently read the first four or so chapters of ctmcp 22:15:00 Mony has distilled the essence of eso 22:15:03 it was quite enlightening 22:15:07 haha 22:15:09 (which is different from oklopol, who /is/ the essence of eso) 22:16:08 Judofyr: also, i prefer to say my goodbyes in my quit message. saves everyone work. 22:16:23 it describes the language oz via a nice set notation 22:16:39 essentially describes an interpreter in math 22:16:59 Chaitin apparently once wrote a Diophantine equation which implemented Lisp 22:17:12 adds concepts as they are discussed, dataflow variables, lazy evaluation, exceptions etc 22:17:18 so. 22:17:20 i recommend too. 22:17:29 so. <--- so what? 22:17:36 i recommend too. <<< this. 22:17:43 sorry, I've been waiting to make that joke for months 22:17:46 :D 22:17:58 well. that's funnier than the actual joke :P 22:18:03 oh dear, I must be turning into AnMaster 22:18:59 i was planning to buy ctmcp myself, but sicp won for now 22:19:30 since i can just borrow a brand new ctmcp from the lib if i have the time to continue on in 22:21:09 hm actually Lambda the Ultimate had a book list 22:21:42 link it so i can read them all 22:21:58 i've got to find it again first 22:24:12 hm it may have been a thread actually, possibly this one: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/492 22:43:48 o 22:44:26 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night BWAHAHAHA"). 22:44:53 hrmph 22:54:34 god i hate java 22:55:33 it kills my creativity 22:55:58 i just end up slowly writing up a crappy solution and thinking "python is so much nicer" 22:56:22 so does everyone else who knows both Java and Python 22:56:24 it's not that you can't do things well with java, it's just i just can't, because i hate it 22:56:30 oklopol: use Jython 22:56:31 :P 22:56:37 just replace your whole program with sth like 22:56:41 well yeah that probably would've been a good solution 22:56:45 (new JythonInterpreter()).eval("PYTHON YAY"); 22:56:57 i just thought, since this is a trivial little application, it doesn't matter how i do it 22:57:01 oklopol let's make a language based on kittens 22:58:03 it's just even a trivial program takes ages to write considering most of my coding time is just looking at the source and hoping the 15 lines to do something trivial would write itself. 22:58:11 because i don't want to write 15 lines to do something trivial 22:58:21 i want trivial things to be trivial :< 22:58:59 almost done though, yay. 23:02:11 oklopol: write a java module called Shit.java 23:02:18 that contains shit that makes life a little less painful. 23:02:28 heck, you could even fake lambdas: 23:02:40 new L(){void c(){...}} 23:02:41 yes, i should do that 23:02:51 the problem is, i don't want to. 23:02:52 that's only like 100 characters bigger than python's lambdas 23:02:52 :P 23:03:00 because i don't want to use java 23:03:01 oklopol: I'll write it for you. Because I am so kind/ 23:03:05 and bored 23:03:15 so as a protest, i'm punishing myself by doing everything the hard way 23:03:42 i wonder if "package net.freenode.irc.esoteric;" is acceptable :-P 23:03:44 for instance i'm not using any kind of serialization, because you can't do it functionally. 23:04:02 if you can't write serialize(object) or something conceptually as simple, the language is flawed. 23:04:18 well not the language necessarily, but the stdlib anyway 23:04:51 Underlambda has S and D commands 23:04:59 which serialise and deserialise something, respectively 23:05:03 to stdout or from stdin 23:05:17 obj serialize 23:05:21 "" deserialize 23:05:27 ^ my vaporware language 23:06:28 serialization is ugly the way it's done in most languages 23:06:52 i mean, if serialization is done to get a bitstring out of an object, so you can send it over a network, or put it in a file 23:07:18 obj serializeTo: stream 23:07:20 that's just retarded, you shouldn't have to have two conceptual representations of an object, and have different things use different represenations 23:07:20 :P 23:07:24 *representations 23:07:31 that should be hidden from the programmer completely 23:07:31 oklopol: it's not a conceptual representation 23:07:35 an object "has" no representation 23:07:43 an object just is 23:07:52 serializing is giving it a bytestring representation 23:08:42 can't really think where that'd be useful, except maybe for hash values, but that should be in the stdlib anyway 23:09:00 oklopol: putting on a disk? 23:09:02 or whatever 23:09:08 you can't put plain objects on to disk 23:09:11 it's just a fact 23:09:16 the disk is made up of bytes 23:09:17 :| 23:09:21 objects, being conceptual, aren't 23:09:40 in Underlambda, one neat trick is to serialise a continuation 23:09:41 i don't see where it'd be useful to think of the disk as made up of bytes 23:09:44 gives a trivial way to save your program 23:09:46 oklopol: because it _is_ 23:09:55 do you want your language to -lie- to you? 23:10:01 the disk is made up of bytes in files. 23:10:02 end of. 23:10:05 you write the serialised continuation out to disk; to run the program from there, just deserialise and give it an argument 23:10:24 mib_c2zegu: it's just a different level of abstraction to think of it as not being made up of bytes 23:10:33 oklopol: no -- it's a layer on top of 23:10:35 an abstraction that doesn't lose generality 23:10:43 it's not a different level, it's a new abstraction 23:11:08 "IF SOMEONE REMOVES IT AGAIN, I WILL put it back" 23:11:11 What a threat 23:11:19 :-) 23:13:37 anyway mib_c2zegu, what's the problem with that abstraction? 23:14:05 i mean the fact it's made up of bytes so the programmer should know that too isn't really much of an argument 23:14:16 it stops the programmer using existing files which are made of bytes? 23:14:19 it's also made up of electricity, but the programmer doesn't know that 23:14:33 and stops them writing out files for use in other things which use them as bytes? 23:15:15 mib_c2zegu: that's a better argument, although i'm not really satisfied with it 23:15:33 there are better ways around that than serialization 23:15:42 raw mode should be an exception, not the standard 23:15:47 files are made of bytes, this is the API exposed to the programmer from the OS (electricity isn't), and the rest of the universe expects them to be bytes 23:15:57 and it's more useful to create files that work with everything else, and read them, than just this language 23:15:58 in general 23:16:03 so the most common case should be default 23:16:35 well in the case of serialization, nothing else can read the file anyway 23:16:44 because serialization is specific to the language 23:16:47 yes 23:16:54 but serialization in that case can build on top of the byte exposing 23:16:59 and just be obj.serialize() -> String 23:17:16 in Underlambda, serialisation is specific to the interp, or the executable in the case of compilation 23:18:07 mib_c2zegu: it can, yes, i still think it's not pretty. 23:18:16 if you don't agree, fine 23:18:34 yay, my java lambdas work 23:18:38 although they're hideously verbose 23:18:41 I think I can make them lesso 23:18:42 but, 23:19:00 L addWorld = new L() { public String _(String a) { return a + " world!'; }}; 23:19:01 vs python 23:19:06 addWorld = lambda a: a + " world!" 23:19:22 :) 23:19:51 an example with multiple arguments would make the distinction even greater 23:20:03 yes, mine doesn't do multiple arguments 23:20:04 well, Java's typed, so the specifying types everywhere is hardly surprising 23:20:08 put them in an array :P 23:20:10 ais523: Haskell: 23:20:13 mib_c2zegu: well i meant with an array 23:20:13 yeah 23:20:15 addWorld = \a -> a ++ " world!" 23:20:16 it's typed too :P 23:20:27 at least you're using templates, even though Java's implementation of templates is stupid 23:20:30 java is just totally inexcusable as a language. 23:20:37 ais523: ah, wait, I should get rid of the template stuff 23:20:39 just make it Object 23:20:41 then there's less typing 23:20:53 no, I dont' care about safety :P 23:21:06 java isn't exactly type safe. 23:21:23 it's just annoying 23:21:46 haskell's type system has actually helped me a few times, java's is just in the way 23:21:58 L addWorld = new L(){public Object _(Object a){return a + " world!";}}; 23:22:01 ^ that's better, slightly 23:22:07 now to see if I can eliminate those Object's 23:22:17 btw, you call like 23:22:20 Java's sort of got an anti-type-system 23:22:21 lambda._(arg) 23:22:29 it checks types at compile time, then forgets about them 23:22:33 yeah 23:22:46 and at runtime it doesn't have any type information so you have to tell it what types things are all over again 23:22:55 then it just errors if things are the wrong type, which can somehow happen anyway 23:23:33 java knows what type things are, just not the generic parameters, afaik 23:23:42 *types 23:23:54 oklopol: not in cases of inheritance 23:23:58 which you're doing all the time in OO langs 23:24:12 hmm. 23:24:14 damnit, you need to explicitly specify public for anon classes 23:24:20 I think I may have reached the limit here. 23:24:24 i'm pretty sure it does know the exact types. 23:24:30 oklopol: are you wary of running a preprocessor over your program? 23:24:49 mib_c2zegu: do you expect me to use your system? :D 23:24:52 YES. 23:24:53 :) 23:24:56 I could write a python program that turned FUN(a -> a + " world!") 23:24:56 :D 23:24:57 into 23:24:58 well err. 23:25:11 new L(){public Object _(Object a){return (a + " world!");}} 23:25:12 :D 23:25:16 oklopol: ISN'T THAT TEMPTING?? 23:25:21 heck, you could even have maps. 23:25:26 but... can you make it infer the types so i don't have to do explicit type conversions? 23:25:39 oklopol: well, perhaps 23:25:45 I may allow explicit types defaulting to Object 23:25:51 so you could do FUN(StupidType a -> ...) 23:26:26 Map._(FN(a -> a + " world!"), {"a","b","c"}) 23:26:31 ^ that's pretty awesome I think. 23:26:37 i mean, as far as using java goes 23:26:42 I think that's pretty cool :P 23:28:19 hmm. 23:28:30 {"a","b","c"}? 23:28:41 tha's javas array literal syntax no? 23:28:49 i think it's more like new String[]{...} 23:28:59 well, whatever 23:29:06 it's still better than a hueg for loop and reassign and shit 23:29:31 anything is better than a loop 23:30:17 * mib_c2zegu wonders what to name the utils package 23:30:21 make.java.less.crap? 23:30:28 okay booker time. 23:30:31 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:30:37 oklopol: NOES. 23:30:38 :P 23:31:08 i wonder if british universities are as keen on java as finnish ones 23:31:14 maybe. 23:31:14 oklopol: 23:31:16 x+4 = 3 23:31:19 WHAT IS X 23:31:50 hmm 23:31:51 well 23:32:01 I don't know what X is 23:32:02 x+4 is a temporary object on the stack 23:32:08 I know what x is, though 23:32:12 -!- Judofyr has joined. 23:32:13 and we need to convert it to an lvalue 23:32:31 now, we have all integers as lvalues somewhere in the memory, for literals that is 23:32:53 we just look up the reference to where ever x + 4 is, and rewrite that to 3 23:33:08 x stays the same 23:33:11 The answer was x+4.3089£& 23:33:36 i don't understand 23:33:41 you will have to walk me through this. 23:33:43 k 23:33:45 $£56@£ 23:33:51 have you noticed oklopol 23:33:55 I drew you from your book. 23:33:56 MWAHAHA 23:33:59 ... 23:34:03 oh my god! 23:34:04 er 23:34:05 forget I said that 23:34:06 <.< 23:34:07 so oklopol 23:34:08 what is x 23:34:17 i already told you 23:34:22 no you did not 23:34:31 wait i didn't? 23:34:32 hmm. 23:34:34 nope 23:34:38 let's see... 23:34:45 01:32… oklopol: x stays the same <<< i so did,. 23:34:54 .,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,. 23:34:58 ,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,., 23:34:59 k 23:35:01 :P 23:35:04 oklopol: that looks like BF 23:35:09 it is 23:35:26 import functional.java.Fn; public class Example { public static void main(String[] args) { System.out.println(FN(a => a + " world!")._("Hello,")); } } 23:35:43 it's an interactive conversation program 23:36:55 mib_c2zegu: ._ is ugly. 23:37:06 oklopol: got a better idea? 23:37:09 I could also make it $ 23:37:14 just make the trivial type inference code and use () :o 23:37:16 FN(a => a + " world!").$("Hello, ") 23:37:24 also, that can't be performed as a simple rewrite of the source 23:38:21 it can, although you need to infer the types of all callers 23:38:25 wait... 23:38:35 well yeah, more or less. 23:38:50 oklopol: i don't think you understand, mine just runs a few regexs 23:38:51 :P 23:39:18 i know, i'm joking for teh most part :) 23:49:07 hmm, well basic compilationeration works 23:49:10 can't specify return type atm 23:49:22 can specify input tho 23:50:16 oklopol: how should return valuamations be specified 23:50:18 I'm thinking liek 23:50:31 FN(a =>Object a + " world!") 23:50:32 or sth. 23:52:17 maybe have A=>B be reduced to L, and use -> for lambdas 23:52:20 dunno. 23:52:29 mayb. 23:52:35 still 23:52:38 it compiles this: 23:52:39 import functional.java.*; public class Example { public static void main(String[] args) { System.out.println(FN(a => a + " world!")._("Hello,")); } } 23:52:40 into this: 23:52:44 import functional.java.*; public class Example { public static void main(String[] args) { System.out.println((new Lambda() { public Object _(Object a) { return (a + " world!"); }})._("Hello,")); } } 23:52:46 not bad. 23:53:42 ooooooooooo 23:54:03 it's nice, but i can't help thinking it's also very trivial :P 23:54:10 oklopol: shur, it is 23:54:14 but wait till I add more stuff :P 23:54:29 well yeah add all the stuff python has and i'm good to go 23:54:41 wellllll not all of it 23:54:49 oklopol: I'm just trying to avoid you committing suicide. 23:57:18 :) 23:59:03 -!- Judofyr has quit. 2008-12-28: 00:35:30 -!- mib_c2zegu has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 00:52:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:07:45 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. Sì, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 01:12:26 "soon. yes, i will speak better than you. soon" 01:25:09 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 01:31:44 WELL LOOK WHO CAME BACK 01:32:02 i knew you'd come CRAWLING back 01:32:10 ...i mean hi 01:32:32 hi oklopol 01:32:35 and hi psygnisfive too 01:34:26 sup you 01:36:23 I've been working on gcc-bf over the holidays 01:36:36 it now reaches the stage where it generates buggy programs that don't work, as opposed to broken programs that don't run 01:36:55 i want a language where all code is written with either examples (kinda like in aardappel), or code; actual code could be like haskell's types, usually inferred, but you could fill it in explicitly where it's nontrivial 01:37:37 hmm... you've just given me an idea for an esolang 01:37:41 instead of telling it what to do 01:37:46 you give it some inputs and some related outputs 01:37:52 and it figures out what to do based on those 01:38:11 yes, but there should be ways to fill in the insides too 01:39:02 just giving general constraints like that will not actually amount to anything in practise, you should somehow be able to give it a bag of functions "that might be useful" 01:39:13 that it could then use to try to find something that fits the io-pairs 01:39:34 and these functions would be done the same way of course 01:40:33 for sorting, you might make a merge and a cut, and give it the bag {merge cut } 01:40:40 and then just give a few pairs 01:41:27 basically you'd just do the "abstraction" step of making functions 01:41:46 and let the computer find the exact connections 02:10:11 -!- ais523 has quit. 02:14:49 -!- Asztal has joined. 03:10:24 o 03:19:29 damn ais523 and his leavings 03:19:40 IF YOU'RE READING THIS, COME BACK AT ONCE. 03:54:44 HEY EVERYBODY 03:54:49 GUESS WHAT TIIIIME IT IS 03:54:52 THATS RIGHT 03:54:56 ITS TIME TO DANCE! 03:55:00 * psygnisfive dances 03:55:08 o|-< 03:55:14 no 03:55:16 * psygnisfive smacks sgeo 03:55:31 o>-< 03:56:59 i can't dance, i have nnscript :< 03:57:07 nnscript? 03:57:12 it's a mirc thing 03:57:57 so. wanna see my current mergesort? 03:58:08 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:58:24 i'll show it anyway, also for ais523 in case he reads the logs 03:58:25 shortlist ~ cutlast,[] : []>1;[4]>1;[6 7]>0 03:58:25 halve ~ cutfirst,cutlast,halve,prepend,append,shortlist : []>[],[];[1]>[],[1]|[1],[];[1 2]>[1],[2];[1 2 3 4]>[1 2],[3 4] 03:58:25 merge ~ cutfirst,lessthan,cutfirst,prepend,[] : [],[]>[];[3],[]>[3];[3],[2]>[2 3];[1 3],[2]>[1 2 3] 03:58:25 sort ~ merge,halve,sort,[] : []>[];[2]>[2];[2 3]>[2 3];[1]>[1];[3 1]>[1 3];[3]>[3];[2 3 1]>[1 2 3] 03:58:52 this is the concise syntax, i have a prettier one as well, but this should bring the point across 03:59:03 name ~ function bag : examples 03:59:31 examples are ;-separated, in>out, "," separates tuples, | for alternatives 04:00:29 also i found a way to get recursion and other reference cycles to work 04:01:30 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 04:02:21 the gist is to have a whole recursion tree in the examples 04:02:51 meaning say you have the [1 3],[2]>[1 2 3] as one of merge's examples 04:03:33 you'd then also put [3],[2]>[2 3] and [3],[]>[3] 04:03:49 because that's how merge should recurse 04:04:25 it both hints the interp towards the right algo, and makes it tractable to check whether the current solution is right 04:09:48 also cookies 04:19:25 supercookies. 04:19:27 sleepy time -> 05:14:03 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:43:48 -!- GregorR_ has joined. 06:43:54 -!- GregorR has quit (Nick collision from services.). 06:43:58 -!- GregorR_ has changed nick to GregorR. 06:51:02 -!- Corun has joined. 07:27:36 lulz 07:27:40 i love haskellians 07:32:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:15:30 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 08:23:26 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to augur. 08:23:38 -!- augur has changed nick to psygnisfive. 08:36:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:04:09 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 09:06:53 -!- Corun has joined. 09:35:58 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has joined. 09:36:45 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has quit (Client Quit). 09:41:37 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has joined. 09:41:42 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has quit (Client Quit). 12:02:48 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:24:25 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 13:45:05 -!- mib_7pojqg has joined. 13:45:08 grrrrrrrrrrr 13:50:28 -!- Judofyr has quit. 14:46:04 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:56:25 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 15:00:49 great, I have no drives that can rip pregaps. 15:02:49 :| 15:14:57 -!- mib_7pojqg has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 15:21:15 -!- mib_ub9ay1 has joined. 15:26:40 -!- Mony has joined. 15:28:00 plop 15:31:29 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:35:14 "[...]so you can choose your preferred tradeoff between efficiency and being able to look at yourself in the mirror the next morning." 15:40:36 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:08:19 what's that from 16:08:24 reddit comment 16:08:30 about piracy? 16:08:32 no 16:08:36 sex? 16:08:38 something to do with algorithms of polygons 16:08:38 and shit. 16:08:42 ... 16:08:43 :D 16:08:49 oklopol: here: 16:08:52 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7m108/ask_proggit_how_can_i_quickly_determine_which/5jik 16:09:29 oooooooo 16:20:04 o 16:20:05 o 16:20:06 o 16:20:12 oko 16:21:40 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:23:52 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:31:21 i can't say i understand it though 16:40:34 :) 16:42:50 why exactly is it easier to look yourself in the mirror if you make things inefficient? 16:43:23 i mean heefficiency 16:43:25 ... 16:43:30 oklopol: because the efficient algorithms are scary and black magicy and you'll feel dirty the day after. 16:43:34 *long typo correction to come 16:43:36 oh. 16:43:46 well right, didn't really see it that way 16:44:08 *no correction, would take too long 16:54:17 "A Rare Blend of Monster Raving Egomania and Utter Batshit Insanity" -- on Wolfram-ANewKindofScience, http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/reviews/wolfram/ 17:01:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:03:08 why exactly is it easier to look yourself in the mirror if you make things inefficient? 17:03:36 premature optimization? something something dijkstra 17:04:00 The first rule of optimisation is "Don't do it." 17:04:07 The second rule of optimisation is "Don't do it yet." 17:04:30 (The third rule is "Don't do it until you've carefully profiled your programs to find out where the bottlenecks are and what needs optimising", but that one isn't as snappy) 17:06:00 that's because the third rule is an optimization of the first two, obviously 17:07:32 ais523: this is lost on AnMaster :) 17:08:31 * oerjan wonders where the "something something" meme comes from. 17:08:44 hm? 17:08:47 I didn't even realise it was a meme 17:09:11 i just used and realized i'd seen it before 17:09:15 *it 17:09:18 hah 17:09:20 right 17:09:35 about the third phase 17:09:43 mib_ub9ay1, no it wasn't lost on me 17:09:46 no, about all of them :P 17:10:26 the hits for "something something meme" seem to be uses, not explanations 17:10:37 mib_ub9ay1, none of them were lost on me, it is just that if your *goal* is as much speed as possible then you have to think about it early on. 17:10:52 most C programs I write are nothing like that 17:10:57 bbl 17:10:59 AnMaster: I'm pretty sure the first rule covers that by telling you speed shouldn't be your goa. 17:11:00 l 17:11:10 incidentally, I have had to use all 3 before 17:11:23 managed to speed up a program by a factor of about 10, because it was running unacceptably slow beforehand 17:11:28 it was still annoying having to do it, though 17:11:45 what lang 17:11:51 Perl 17:11:54 it was my new AI for TAEB 17:12:04 in cases like that, before optimizing i'd rewrite as a c extension 17:12:08 altho apparently that's painful with per 17:12:09 l 17:12:19 mib_ub9ay1: well, it was heavily object-oriented 17:12:19 but it's easier to write simple c and have it faster than optimized perl, I'd wager 17:12:34 it wouldn't work at all well in C without rewriting the entire program in C 17:12:48 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:13:00 perl has an extension api, no? 17:13:05 yes, it does 17:13:08 you obviously haven't seen it 17:13:12 yes, I know 17:13:14 it basically exposes the internals of Perl to C programs 17:13:14 that's why I wouldn't use perl. 17:13:27 which makes it good for different sorts of extensions from the sorts you're thinking of 17:13:47 anyway, how would you, say, write an extension for object-oriented Python or Ruby in C? 17:14:18 by using their clean, simple, well-thought-out API. 17:14:33 the problem is that much of the slowness was in the objects I was calling 17:14:34 I don't think "clean" applies to Ruby's API 17:14:41 Asztal: compared to XS? 17:14:43 fuck yeah. 17:14:49 or whatever perl call their api 17:14:53 the bits of Perl I wrote weren't particularly slow 17:15:01 they were calling slow things outside themselves, though 17:15:17 such as trying to get deeply-nested properties of external objects 17:15:30 IOW, rewriting in C would have been optimising the wrong thing 17:15:34 i think taeb is a leeetle overengineered. 17:15:42 no, it isn't 17:15:45 it's still underengineered 17:15:48 surprisingly 17:16:08 argh, "something something" seems a favorite thing to say to show the template of _other_ memes, making it impossible to search for :D 17:16:40 oerjan: try tvtropes? 17:16:43 i think its just an idiom. 17:17:35 oh good idea 17:17:43 well, meme, idiom, almost same thing 17:17:43 * mib_ub9ay1 cackles 17:17:46 now you are trapped! 17:17:53 i've been there before 17:17:57 i know 17:18:03 * mib_ub9ay1 = ehird 17:18:51 http://code.google.com/p/brainspace/ Rule 1 of esolangs: your esolang does not need a google code project 17:19:01 AnMaster: I'm pretty sure the first rule covers that by telling you speed shouldn't be your goa. 17:19:01 l 17:19:14 well, I don't overclock, but sometimes people do speed runs 17:19:20 17:19AnMaster AnMaster: I'm pretty sure the first rule covers that by telling you speed shouldn't be your goa. 17:19AnMaster l 17:19:21 like "how much can you overclock" 17:19:28 what has that got to do with anything 17:19:47 hmph no obvious hits there either 17:19:50 mib_ub9ay1, considering cfunge a test of "how fast can you get it as a pure interpreter" 17:20:10 AnMaster: your site does not mention this. 17:20:16 mib_ub9ay1, indeed it doesn't 17:20:20 why does it have to? 17:20:34 because if you take its point as what the site says, your optimization is stupid 17:20:41 mib_ub9ay1, my goal is being the _fastest_ _interpreter_ out there 17:21:12 as far as I know I currently beat all except jitfunge 17:21:15 at befunge98 17:21:18 mib_ub9ay1: knowing you are ehird is simple, it's just a matter of elimination 17:21:24 and last I heard jitfunge wasn't complete 17:21:53 note to self: trying to talk sensibly to AnMaster is fruitless; your lines go to /dev/null. 17:22:05 mib_ub9ay1, I will update website slightly 17:22:19 mib_ub9ay1: an _ambitious_ esolang would have a google summer code project 17:22:33 oerjan: ha 17:23:40 http://serprex.staticfire.co.uk/x86/x86.htm nice. 17:23:52 mib_ub9ay1: actually scratch the elimination, the AnMaster comments are enough 17:24:01 oerjan: <3 17:25:03 mib_ub9ay1, that is quite an useful link for debugging 17:25:24 no, it's useful for writing compilers 17:25:25 :p 17:25:26 * oerjan wonders if that flame knight or what it was site is still there 17:25:32 up until now I used the AMD64 processor docs, which is not always easy to search in 17:25:48 they're only available in pdf i believe. 17:25:51 i don't believe in pdfs 17:26:01 mib_ub9ay1, they are pdf only indeed 17:26:11 I have them (all 5 pdfs) on my desktop 17:26:20 ALL 5! wow. 17:26:24 mib_ub9ay1, and do you mean you don't believe they exist? 17:26:29 mib_ub9ay1, all 5 huge ones 17:26:30 :P 17:26:50 not believing that pdfs exist would be more of an oklopol thing. 17:27:17 mib_ub9ay1, anyway they are around 450-550 pages long each 17:27:34 mib_ub9ay1: AnMaster: http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/duelists.htm 17:27:37 yeah i think I just fell asleep 17:27:44 * mib_ub9ay1 zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz 17:27:52 oerjan, heh, *reads text* 17:28:14 oerjan, the text doesn't explain what the site is hm 17:28:28 is this related to some online game? 17:28:31 click home 17:28:38 -!- Slereah has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:28:38 no 17:28:38 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:28:52 there is no link home there 17:28:59 it's a funny list of stereotypes 17:29:02 sure there is 17:29:06 and my home icon takes me to gentoo.org 17:29:30 hm wait maybe it's framed 17:29:43 oerjan, there is no home indeed, and there is no frame 17:29:50 AnMaster's homepage is gentoo.org? 17:29:56 * AnMaster tries in another web browser 17:29:58 gee I like seeing the gentoo site every time I open a browser too. 17:30:00 AnMaster: he mean 17:30:00 s 17:30:02 oerjan, ok there is a home when using firefox 3 17:30:03 he's probably linked to a page 17:30:04 hm no works here 17:30:05 that was in a frame 17:30:33 indeed, but that seems not to have been the problem 17:30:52 doesn't even load for me. 17:31:21 main page is http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/index.htm 17:32:49 anyway that site should have pigeon holes enough for all of us :D 17:33:11 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:33:50 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:34:04 oerjan, what would you be then? 17:34:43 * oerjan doesn't recall, it's been years since he visited 17:34:45 I'm guessing a giraffe. 17:34:53 i just remembered the duelists 17:34:58 there's a giraffe? 17:35:02 clearly. 17:35:05 there always is. 17:35:51 mib_ub9ay1: you might think http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm fits AnMaster better ;D 17:37:46 anus.htm :o 17:37:53 Slereah, haha 17:38:05 -!- Ilari_ has joined. 17:38:08 Slereah brings out the asshole in us all 17:38:12 instantrimshot.com 17:38:16 of course i am an Eagle Scout *cough* 17:38:28 and i'm not even sure if that's ironic 17:38:41 your mom is ironic 17:38:42 It's ironic if you're an eagle 17:38:43 haha snap 17:40:21 who loves SPACE 17:40:23 V v move down \n v move down 17:41:46 mib_ub9ay1: at least i agree brainspace doesn't deserve a google code project 17:42:30 i mean i drop more inspired languages in the toilet 17:43:10 which one is brainspace, again? 17:43:28 * oerjan should try the Blowhard more often 17:43:35 mib_ub9ay1 linked it a few lines ago 17:43:43 i haven't seen it before 17:44:46 ah, Yet Another cross between BF and Befunge 17:45:45 well. i think so. although i can't really see how to do computation in it 17:46:22 can't BF trivially be compiled into it? 17:46:26 or is it missing one of the instructions? 17:46:36 its on the esowiki 17:46:48 it seems LEPM + Befunge-style looping is enough for TCness 17:48:48 -!- Ilari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:49:36 hm 18:01:20 -!- Judofyr has quit. 18:03:34 AnMaster: http://linux.softpedia.com/get/Programming/Interpreters/cfunge-37128.shtml 18:03:40 lol 18:04:33 did AnMaster write that? 18:04:37 or is it a copy from his site? 18:04:43 softpedia just spider shit. 18:05:07 User Rating: Rated by:Fair (2.2/5) 18 user(s) 18:05:08 yeah rihgt 18:05:53 AnMaster: http://www.dreamincode.net/forums/showtopic69841.htm 18:05:55 INDUSTRY NEWS 18:09:11 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:12:09 or is it a copy from his site? <-- I didn't 18:13:04 mib_ub9ay1, that text is familiar, I wrote it as release notes for freshmeat.net iirc 18:13:05 :P 18:13:14 and yes I have seen sites like that before 18:13:18 makes me think "wtf" 18:13:48 mib_ub9ay1, and yes I agree it is totally silly 18:13:50 those sites 18:14:52 AnMaster: they get money from ad revenue 18:15:04 not silly if you're making big bux off it. 18:15:08 hm 18:15:15 mib_ub9ay1, why would anyone use them? 18:15:26 AnMaster: why wouldn't they? 18:15:32 From a regular perspective, what sends off alarm bells? 18:15:38 It has information and download links. 18:15:44 They find it once, and keep going there, because they use it. 18:17:01 mib_ub9ay1, hm, at least freshmeat kind of makes sense 18:17:38 mib_ub9ay1, however I should probably report them for copyright violation of release notes, since I could say they are under GFDL or something 18:17:46 AnMaster: /are/ they under GFDL? 18:17:47 ais523: i don't see how to make a loop 18:17:54 if you didn't licence them at all, you could try to report them for copyvio 18:17:55 ais523, no, but maybe for next release? 18:17:57 oklopol: Befunge-style, using ? 18:18:09 AnMaster: are they under any licence at all? 18:18:14 ? just reflects 18:18:15 ais523, nop 18:18:18 and all turns are deterministic 18:18:20 AnMaster: who gives a shit 18:18:23 if so, then it'll rather depend on which country you're in 18:18:26 what harm is it doing? 18:18:35 meaning there's just one path you can't deviate from 18:18:36 ais523, but probably since it was posted on freshmeat it is covered by their EULA 18:18:42 so I'll need to check that 18:18:45 -!- Ilari_ has changed nick to Ilari. 18:18:45 mib_ub9ay1: using AnMaster's hard-earned release notes to give themselves ad revenue? 18:18:57 ais523: I was talking about softpedia. 18:18:58 oklopol: are turns reversible too? 18:19:08 mib_ub9ay1: it's cluttering Google results 18:19:12 dreamincode isn't just an aggregation-spam site, they just seem to have an aggregated news section. 18:19:17 ais523: well no, i guess they're not 18:19:18 Additionally, they link to their source. 18:19:28 mib_ub9ay1, true that is one useful thing 18:19:33 ais523: That just means your google results aren't good enough. 18:19:39 still i can't see it. probably would if there is a way, if i tried 18:19:44 If there was better content, the aggregations would be way at the end. 18:19:50 but i'm hoping someone will just explain it to me, because i'm so goddamn tired 18:20:13 mib_ub9ay1: still, maybe AnMaster doesn't want his effort used by other companies to increase their search results 18:20:36 well I'll let the issue rest for no 18:20:37 now* 18:20:50 ais523: I was talking about softpedia. 18:20:51 because i think the fact turns aren't reversible just means the path can't be traversed backwards except until the first forced turn comes (and not a mirror) 18:21:02 I highly doubt dreamincode.net are doing it for their search reviews; they're a legit site, a very old one though. 18:21:09 http://code.google.com/p/brainspace/ for reference, if someone feels like explaining 18:21:14 ASsuming it's the dreamincode I was thinking about. 18:21:16 i still think it's broken 18:21:18 The page only loads in google's cache. 18:21:19 mib_ub9ay1, what is dreamincode doing it for? 18:21:31 AnMaster: er, to provide an aggregation of news? 18:21:39 Admittedly not very well, i doubt many of their users care about cfunge. 18:21:50 mib_ub9ay1, "industry news from the esoteric language area"? 18:21:54 it is hilarious 18:22:00 oklopol: it's the * command 18:22:12 that's a conditional skip, isn't it? 18:22:13 I think 18:22:22 and it can skip a direction-change command to get a conditional branch 18:22:44 oklopol, is http://code.google.com/p/brainspace/ your project? 18:23:03 uhhh 18:23:03 no? 18:23:06 ah 18:23:15 who is the dev? Someone in this channel? 18:23:20 err, no? 18:23:23 wtf are you talking about 18:23:24 ah ok 18:23:27 mib_ub9ay1, was wondering 18:23:36 and what do you mean 18:23:37 mib_ub9ay1: AnMaster's trying to figure out whose BrainSpace is 18:23:42 ais523, exactly! 18:23:46 look on the esowiki? 18:23:48 some random idiot 18:23:51 hm 18:23:52 like all crap esolangs 18:23:53 SpaceMan++ according to the esowiki history 18:23:58 anyway this sounds familiar 18:24:00 the model 18:24:05 from some other language 18:24:12 the \ / mirror thing 18:24:13 uh 18:24:14 befunge? 18:24:24 mib_ub9ay1, no that doesn't have /\ mirrors 18:24:43 AnMaster: backflip? 18:24:55 oerjan, *looks on esowiki* 18:25:03 ah yes indeed 18:25:11 oerjan, yes that was it 18:25:24 heh it says ais523 created it 18:25:33 I created BackFlip, yes 18:25:38 but in BackFlip, the mirrors use 18:25:44 neither of the commands were my idea, by the way 18:25:51 I got them from a post on esoteric.sange.fi 18:26:10 but they were in quite a different context, someone was trying to figure out how to do subroutines in a Befunge-like language 18:27:12 is there an animated backflip interp? :P 18:27:35 mib_ub9ay1, sounds like a fun idea 18:27:37 make one! 18:27:43 with sound effects! 18:32:07 AnMaster: PEW! PEW! 18:32:07 DOINK 18:32:12 *CRASH* 18:32:24 mib_ub9ay1, :D 18:45:44 http://code.google.com/p/brainspace/wiki/LinkingToBS1LibraryInJava 18:47:09 ais523: ... 18:47:19 * mib_ub9ay1 vomits 18:47:27 * mib_ub9ay1 eats the vomit 18:47:27 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:47:28 * mib_ub9ay1 vomits 18:47:32 ^ MY APPROXIMATE FEELINGS. 18:51:06 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 19:01:39 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 19:08:21 AnMaster: brainspace isn't really my type. 19:09:00 ais523: oh. i missed that. 19:10:19 oklopol is a bear of very little brain 19:10:42 needs nearly no space 19:10:45 that's the problem with me reading things, i always miss the one crucial line. 19:14:32 oerjan: bear? 19:14:37 i don't have bear powers 19:18:10 *whoosh* 19:18:25 can i have bear powers? 19:18:32 maybe 19:18:39 oerjan: my point exactly 19:19:55 however, loving milk and honey is a prerequisite. 19:20:31 sigh. 19:20:32 albinoblacksheep.com/flash/bearhello 19:20:35 http://albinoblacksheep.com/flash/bearhello 19:20:54 o 19:20:56 o 19:21:18 i guess that's fun a hundredth time 19:21:20 * oklopol watches 19:21:26 o 19:30:11 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:32:07 "interpeter" 19:32:31 i'm gonna change my name to that 19:33:53 Pope Interpeter I 19:35:04 what's Mozilla Public License 1.1 19:35:29 a shit license. 19:35:37 license to shit 19:47:20 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:50:12 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:45:00 -!- mib_ub9ay1 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 20:58:02 -!- mib_5koloe has joined. 20:58:07 AnMaster: can you implement MKRY already? 20:58:28 mib_5koloe, no 20:58:32 why not 20:58:34 but should be easy for you to do 20:58:41 like I'm touching that source 20:58:45 mib_5koloe, it adds nothing of value IMO 20:58:53 mib_5koloe, you could implement it for rc/funge then 20:58:58 that would be funny 20:59:00 AnMaster: i'd stop complaining about cfunge. 20:59:18 mib_5koloe, though that sounds nice: no 20:59:22 still 20:59:27 implement it for rc/funge 20:59:33 yeah I think this accurately depicts why I dislike cfunge. 20:59:33 you won't complain about cfunge then 20:59:40 :P 20:59:45 it's a far MKRY from implementation... 20:59:52 oerjan, :D 21:00:13 that one was truly good/awful/aweful all in one 21:00:20 and yes that wasn't a typo 21:00:51 really, you didn't write awful twice and type the other one? 21:00:54 the actual word is "awesome" 21:01:10 *typo 21:01:24 ^ see, i wrote "typo" twice, typoed the first one 21:01:30 it's common 21:02:00 oerjan: did you know your nick backwards is najreo? 21:02:17 i had vaguely suspected it 21:02:19 i mean... that doesn't even mean anything 21:02:50 someone once told me my name forward means slave in finnish 21:02:52 whereas oko nicks spelt backwards just look like more oko nicks 21:02:56 how about reversing your nick so it means something backwards? 21:03:02 lopolko for instance 21:03:35 olopolo 21:03:45 that would be a cool nick 21:04:05 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 21:04:46 hmm. 21:04:54 trying to translate olopolo is a bit hard 21:05:29 i mean "Xpolo" is usually translated "poor X" 21:06:07 but "olo" means something like "being", but not about a person, more like the act of being 21:06:19 poor act of being 21:06:23 -!- oklopol has changed nick to olopolo. 21:06:29 o 21:06:35 a poor existence 21:06:39 hmm. feels pretty nice 21:06:42 hmm 21:06:46 yeah that's good 21:07:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:13:48 the actual word is "awesome" <-- I know 21:13:52 but that was the point 21:14:19 awsome and aweful 21:15:39 olopolo, Hm does Finnish have a lot of hard to translate meanings? 21:15:45 what I would call nyanser in Swedish 21:15:53 don't know the English word for it 21:16:00 nyanser is nyanser 21:16:02 how hilarious 21:16:10 mib_5koloe, does it mean the same? 21:16:19 i meant 21:16:23 nyanser is an example of nyanser 21:16:23 :P 21:16:30 mib_5koloe, no it isn't 21:16:37 I just don't remember the word 21:16:37 "nuances" 21:16:42 AnMaster: well, it's hard to translate the meaning into English 21:16:43 I know I have read the English one 21:16:43 seems to fit :P 21:16:46 oerjan, err no 21:16:56 not? 21:17:01 oerjan: surely not 21:17:24 mib_5koloe, nyans when used about colours is "shade" 21:17:32 not sure when used about meanings of words 21:17:43 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----### 21:17:43 in Swedish it can be used for both 21:17:50 oerjan, what? 21:17:52 o.O 21:18:19 oh wait 21:18:23 Definitions of nuance on the Web: 21:18:23 * a subtle difference in meaning or opinion or attitude; "without understanding the finer nuances you can't enjoy the humor"; "don't argue about ... 21:18:23 wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn 21:18:26 huh 21:18:36 I thought "nuance" was "irritating" 21:18:43 HOW DARE YOU NOT BELIEVE ME 21:18:46 that's annoyance, AnMaster 21:18:50 or err 21:18:52 how do you spell it 21:18:54 niusance 21:18:57 mib_5koloe, yes, but isn't there one without "a" 21:18:58 ah yes 21:19:01 "nuisance"* 21:19:03 nuisance 21:19:06 ah, thanks 21:19:06 :P 21:19:07 mib_5koloe's joke works, misunderstanding something and basing a joke on it is okay as long as it's clear what was misunderstood 21:19:13 what 21:19:13 where did that * come from 21:19:27 oerjan, from outer space 21:19:40 i always rely on non-native speakers to correct my spelling and grammar 21:19:42 :D 21:19:43 or if you don't believe the crop circle experts, from your keyboard 21:19:50 AYEE 21:19:57 mib_5koloe, heh 21:20:05 they approach english as more of a dark magic than a regular language 21:20:11 so generally they're pretty good at spotting tiny things :P 21:20:13 mib_5koloe, what client do you use? Mine has a spell checker built in 21:20:14 how can you think it's niusance if you know how to pronounce it 21:20:24 while it doesn't always help, it does help a lot of the times 21:20:29 olopolo: i don't 21:20:32 * oerjan develops a space disease and his skin turns purple with orange spots 21:20:33 :P 21:20:37 well didn't 21:20:43 AnMaster: all OS X textfields do 21:20:44 i could understand newsans or noozonge, but not niusance 21:20:51 but it's a pain to right click and choose an alternative. 21:20:54 also, doesn't do grammar. 21:20:58 also, the suggestions sometimes suck 21:21:04 e.g. I doubt it could correct niusance 21:21:07 well 21:21:08 prolly could 21:21:10 but not other ones 21:21:13 (even narlum, for the american pronunciation) 21:21:13 mib_5koloe, well, mine does English as I type. However it think "doesn't" is badly spelled 21:21:20 it thinks ' is a word delimiter 21:21:24 which is quite odd 21:22:11 olopolo, i don't know how to pronounce "nuisance" 21:22:22 it's like new-sance 21:22:25 ALSO! Where is the damn mobile phone 21:22:30 with a soft c 21:22:34 AnMaster: call it and find out. 21:22:45 and silent e, ce is sort of lilke a way to say a soft c 21:22:46 i pronounce it roughly like new-sense 21:22:54 hmm yeah sance is better 21:22:57 i pronounce it like gNewSense 21:22:58 mib_5koloe, not possible, the battery was dead last night 21:23:03 olopolo: I think it differs by dialect 21:23:04 for I am Richard M Stallman 21:23:05 and I don't remember where I put it 21:23:24 mib_5koloe: the second e in that is stronger than the corresponding vowel in nuisance, which is more neutral 21:23:37 gNewSense is a linux distro 21:23:47 ok I found it... But such a strange place... 21:23:49 it sucks and rms loves it because it is committed to being useless by only containing 100% free software. 21:23:53 probably won't tell you 21:23:57 too strange 21:24:02 AnMaster: THE TOILET?!!!!!!!!11111111111 21:24:05 11 21:24:06 1 21:24:11 mib_5koloe, pyjamas pocket... 21:24:20 Same thing, rite. 21:24:27 mib_5koloe, about as strange yes 21:24:32 but not same 21:24:41 since I store the pyjamas elsewhere 21:24:48 i think he's asking whether you have a habit of taking a shit in your pyjamas pocket. 21:24:56 ... 21:24:57 olopolo, no. 21:24:59 XD 21:25:03 I don't think so 21:25:03 :D 21:25:17 mib_5koloe, s/X/XKC/ 21:25:20 well that wouldn't be like you really 21:25:26 i mean even i don't do that 21:25:31 i do... 21:25:32 ... 21:25:33 .. 21:25:35 ... 21:25:36 lol why am i on irc. 21:25:37 -> 21:25:38 ...n't 21:25:44 haha 21:26:20 th-th-that's some st-st-st-speech impediment 21:27:20 oerjan, nah, just high latency link between brain and the thingy you make sound with 21:27:27 gah, what is the word in English 21:27:29 you mean 21:27:32 a speech impediment. 21:27:34 also, mouth. 21:27:44 mib_5koloe, no the other part 21:27:48 in the throat 21:27:51 ass? 21:27:53 oh. 21:27:54 :P 21:27:55 NO! 21:27:57 voicebox? 21:28:03 vocal chords? 21:28:10 ass? 21:28:12 wikipedia claims it is "vocal folds" 21:28:24 "The vocal folds, also known commonly as vocal cords..." 21:28:30 what's that thing hanging from the top of the mouth, in english 21:28:32 do we have a vocal disagreement? 21:28:35 it has some fun name 21:28:41 uvula 21:28:44 ah 21:28:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uvula_piercing 21:28:50 XD 21:28:55 heh 21:29:09 not at all pointless 21:30:41 "but it may make it very difficult to perform" <<< lol didn't realize at first this was about the piercing operation 21:31:02 "a uvula piercing might make it difficult to perform... so you'll need to take it off when you perform" 21:31:09 "if you know what i mean... wink wink" 21:31:19 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:31:24 XD 21:31:29 "now remove your skirt and call me a doctor" 21:31:32 CODE. 21:31:34 SERIOUSLY. 21:31:35 -> 21:31:38 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 21:34:14 i wonder what the longest conversation ever was. 21:35:07 between two people? 21:35:30 yeah, I guess 21:35:38 seven years 21:37:10 Define "conversation" 21:39:33 continuous talking about a subject. 21:39:46 Completely continuous? 21:39:55 no. 21:39:59 No sleep or eating? 21:40:17 eating yes sleeping no. 21:40:52 Then it can't be longer than ten days, since it's the record for not sleeping! 21:41:05 And really, I assume shorter than two days, too. 21:41:09 hmm. 21:41:15 Slereah: u sure about that? 21:41:26 olopolo: "u"? 21:41:28 No. 21:41:28 :O 21:41:33 That's why I said assume 21:41:49 i mean i've heard stories about people who've stopped sleeping completely after a disease 21:42:01 mib_5koloe: whooooops typo. 21:42:04 Are t 21:42:07 hey dead? 21:42:08 i actually meant "you" 21:42:21 Also, "heard stories" is not very convincing. 21:42:25 :P 21:42:35 I heard stories about molemen. 21:42:40 a guy hasn't slept for like 40 years 21:42:43 it was on bbc news 21:42:46 he was a farmer guy type. 21:42:56 Be more precise. 21:43:04 can't sry 21:43:14 Let's try wikipedia! 21:44:01 i wish i could stop sleeping 21:44:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_deprivation#Longest_period_without_sleep 21:44:27 i mean, involuntary sleeping at least 21:45:30 On May 25, 2007 the BBC reported that Tony Wright beat the Guinness World Record by staying awake for 11 days and nights.[42] The Guinness Book of Records has, however, withdrawn its backing of a sleep deprivation class because of the associated health risks. 21:45:34 that's so retarded 21:45:41 i mean the latter 21:46:13 So I guess that if the guy who didn't sleep for 33 years talked with the guy who didn't sleep in 20 years 21:46:18 That's a max of 20 years. 21:48:06 lol, i could do that standing on my head 21:48:24 Do it. 21:48:30 Standing on your head. 21:49:23 olopolo is palindrome. 21:49:41 But it is not symetrical, though. 21:49:47 The p ruins the symmetry. 21:49:58 its not visually similar, this is true 21:50:09 but it is character-wise symmetric, hence palindromic 21:50:18 I know. 21:50:52 oloqolo 21:50:54 psygnisfive: orly 21:51:05 actually i prefer anal but if you insist 21:51:15 how do you do that upside down p?? 21:51:27 its in unicode 21:51:36 q isn't upside down p. 21:51:37 under 'flipped characters" 21:51:40 olobolo 21:51:48 b 21:51:58 qpdb 21:52:14 Slereah: yes it is, it's just also reversed 21:52:19 wait. 21:52:21 no it's not 21:52:24 ... 21:52:27 fuck you all -> 21:52:31 :D 21:52:40 olodolo 21:52:41 Yay, fucking :D 22:07:13 -!- mib_5koloe has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 22:08:07 -!- mib_ty3fkd has joined. 22:25:06 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 22:30:35 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 22:30:36 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 22:35:42 GUYS 22:35:44 holy FUCK 22:35:49 internet mystery! 22:35:54 Al Gore? 22:36:01 no no 22:36:03 *coho 22:41:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TheGreatHatsby 22:47:05 psygnisfive: seems a bit fishy to me 22:47:54 *hatty 22:48:43 no, look at the end 22:52:47 fungot: what do you think of these conversation bots? 22:52:47 oerjan: at the 22:53:04 ah, the great hatsby bots 22:53:08 they're neat 22:53:13 they're called salmonbots nowadays 22:53:39 apparently the coders occasionally keep in touch with the people who like them and stuff. 22:53:43 so not much of a mystery 22:55:11 http://project-upstream.awardspace.com/ 22:55:13 request interface 22:56:00 Your connection request has been received, and may be filled at our convenience. Please note that while Project Upstream cares deeply about the Internet community's satisfaction, we can not be held responsible for delayed or overlooked connection requests. 22:58:37 http://community.livejournal.com/themissinghat/405326.html geez, look at the freaking whiners 23:23:24 'night 23:23:35 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 23:24:55 guys 23:25:09 namely, oerjan, oklopol, ehird 23:25:12 i have an idea 23:25:33 wat 23:25:39 angkor 23:27:56 oerjan :D 23:28:02 im glad you've started doing that too 23:28:14 tho i think angkor thom is cooler than angkor wat 23:28:15 anyway 23:28:22 i say we start an internet mystert 23:28:23 mystery* 23:28:34 you mean others do it too? 23:28:40 i do! 23:28:45 ive been doing it for YEARS 23:28:59 oh oerjan, i love you! 23:29:09 * psygnisfive runs towards oerjan in slow motion, arms extended for embrace 23:29:10 i may have picked it up subconsciously then 23:29:16 :) 23:29:26 anyone read Pattern Recognition? 23:30:07 i tried to start an ARG once 23:30:07 failed 23:30:18 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARG 23:30:58 man forget ARGs 23:31:04 ARGs are too .. gamey 23:31:07 i dont want to start an ARG 23:31:09 ARGs are fun as hell. 23:31:13 i want to start a genuine mystery 23:31:24 psygnisfive: then what the fuck are you doing talking about it on a public IRC channel? 23:31:35 as if people read this shit :P 23:31:43 mib_ty3fkd: that is the mystery 23:31:44 psygnisfive: google reads us. 23:31:51 lies 23:31:52 oerjan: lol 23:32:39 i've never been able to google the logs reliably 23:32:56 http://gitorious.org/projects/astral-messenger/repos/mainline/blobs/master/amsg.pl Slowest messaging service ever 23:33:24 oerjan! 23:33:25 PM! 23:33:56 psygnisfive: please don't notify about PMs in public... it's irritating 23:34:05 shut up | 23:34:10 :| 23:34:10 no. 23:34:17 well too bad 23:34:20 i will notify all i want! 23:34:22 AM here 23:34:40 psygnisfive: please, others have expressed annoyance at people doing it too.. 23:34:44 read your pms, bitch 23:34:57 /sig 23:34:57 h 23:35:02 i don't have pms 23:35:09 i PMed you >O 23:35:24 it's called /msg. 23:35:36 i know this, dumbass. 23:35:53 i can call people dumbasses too. 23:36:09 i know you can 23:36:23 mib_ty3fkd: you can also be incorrect in doing so 23:36:55 who is mib_ty3fkd anywho 23:36:59 ehird. 23:37:37 that explains it 23:37:40 ais523: http://gitorious.org/projects/astral-messenger/repos/mainline/blobs/master/amsg.pl read and laugh 23:41:20 it just randomly hashes things until it finds the original 23:41:54 ais523: ywp 23:41:54 *yep 23:41:56 that's the joke. 23:43:44 I would like to make a block-based, append-only, hash-identifier, distributed filesystem sometime. 23:43:45 That'd be fun. 23:44:22 kind of like a bittorrent filesystem 23:44:30 with universal lookup 23:57:16 -!- mib_ty3fkd has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 23:57:31 -!- mib_ugvo4i has joined. 2008-12-29: 00:04:58 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 00:10:20 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:10:50 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:12:35 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:12:40 -!- Judofyr has joined. 00:50:46 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:53:26 -!- Judofyr has joined. 00:54:28 -!- mib_ugvo4i has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 00:55:16 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:01:16 -!- Judofyr has joined. 01:12:46 did my client part there or not? 01:13:04 * AnMaster is testing a script to prevent mis-part of channels 01:13:08 nope 01:13:11 no, it didn't 01:13:11 yay! 01:13:19 it works then 01:13:28 I made my bnc prevent part of this channel 01:15:19 which one of you has the slicehost server? (i.e. I currently have a blank referral code box) 01:15:27 ehird does 01:47:38 -!- moozilla has joined. 01:51:27 -!- metazilla has joined. 01:51:27 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:51:37 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 01:52:04 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:52:09 -!- metazilla has joined. 01:52:50 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:52:50 -!- moozilla has joined. 01:57:47 -!- ais523 has quit. 01:59:14 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:59:23 -!- moozilla has joined. 01:59:51 -!- metazilla has joined. 01:59:57 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:00:03 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 02:06:26 -!- metazilla has joined. 02:06:34 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 02:06:50 -!- moozilla has joined. 02:06:55 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:07:01 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 02:13:25 -!- moozilla has joined. 02:13:30 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:13:34 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 02:16:22 -!- moozilla has joined. 02:16:27 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:16:31 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 02:27:37 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:27:40 -!- moozilla has joined. 02:28:11 -!- metazilla has joined. 02:28:19 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 02:28:21 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 02:29:42 a secret fly that i know best / to keep a moment shake a bean 02:32:29 read a paper that is dust / to close my followers a sun of farm 02:33:10 olopolo: what 02:38:21 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:38:22 -!- metazilla has joined. 02:38:52 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:43:18 psygnisfive: can't really muster the sanity to answer with an answer 04:25:50 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:45:16 -!- lifthrasiir has quit ("Lost terminal"). 04:45:46 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 05:19:51 http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20081227.gif 05:19:52 :D 05:48:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 05:48:40 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:51:57 -!- lifthrasiir has quit ("leaving"). 05:53:36 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 06:21:33 These cheapbooks.com commercials make me want to overpay of books. 06:27:03 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:56:53 -!- moozilla has joined. 06:59:07 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:59:10 -!- metazilla has joined. 07:19:21 -!- moozilla has joined. 07:19:32 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:19:34 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 07:21:44 -!- moozilla has joined. 07:21:45 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:21:53 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 07:32:47 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:39:51 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:40:04 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:42:05 -!- Corun has joined. 07:53:13 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 07:57:57 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 07:57:58 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:04:48 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:39:08 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 08:50:24 -!- puzzlet has joined. 09:00:40 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 09:11:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:47:34 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 09:52:03 -!- Corun has joined. 10:04:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 10:11:38 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:17:25 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:12:00 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 12:25:50 -!- Mony has joined. 12:27:08 hihi 12:28:35 hoho 12:28:52 huhu 12:28:58 haha 12:30:59 hehe 12:31:27 combo breaker etc. 12:31:45 Stop badgering me. 12:32:01 * Badger badgers Slereah 12:32:46 Go badger some mushrooms. 12:58:34 -!- Slereah has quit. 13:14:46 -!- Corun has joined. 13:37:03 -!- mib_8myp3f has joined. 13:37:08 lol wat, n. "Further, why is Hindley-Milner is better than (say) Java? " 13:37:12 o 13:37:22 hindley-milner 13:37:41 oh that 13:55:06 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:55:46 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:09:50 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:17:23 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:30:01 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:40:43 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 14:40:54 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:40:56 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 14:41:12 -!- rinsmaster has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:41:51 -!- rinsmaster has joined. 14:47:54 -!- Judofyr__ has joined. 14:48:11 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:54:54 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:09:57 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:10:48 -!- Judofyr has quit (Client Quit). 15:10:49 -!- Judofyr__ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:15:37 -!- Corun has joined. 15:39:27 . 16:32:37 "Hi Vic, If you learn Computer Science you know that it's possible to fake an ip-address." 16:38:36 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:05:29 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:06:13 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 17:07:08 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:34:01 -!- mib_8myp3f has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 18:01:38 yeah that's pretty basic algorithmics 18:12:20 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:25:11 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:25:37 -!- Judofyr has joined. 18:33:21 -!- ehird has joined. 18:34:38 Yo peeps. 18:34:46 I gots myself a new bouncer aye. 18:34:53 Feels good. 18:35:39 I see you're all very excited. 18:42:39 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 18:49:47 actually, I am interested, since I'll be looking for bouncers soon 18:49:59 Asztal: I am using http://miau.sourceforge.net/. 18:50:11 also, feel free to give me a slicehost referral code 18:50:19 ha, sure 18:50:20 let me find it 18:52:40 but, miau is nice 18:52:50 it does auto log replay unlike ezbounce 18:52:54 it isn't bloated like ZNC 18:52:59 and, uh, anything is better than psybnc 18:53:35 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:59:57 -!- Corun has joined. 19:00:30 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 19:01:04 hey, Asztal, want to spam after I say "now" for 5 seconds so I can check the logging works? :P 19:04:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:04:22 or you oerjan? 19:04:34 et tu ehird 19:04:47 just spam after I say spam. 19:04:49 for like five seconds. 19:04:50 spam 19:05:15 it would be nice to let me read the log so i could know what this is about first 19:05:53 lol wat, n. "Further, why is Hindley-Milner is better than (say) Java? " 19:06:44 BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE TO RIGHT ALL THE FUCKING public static int[] gnarl gipple gorf types ALL THE TIME 19:06:49 *WRITE 19:06:55 DAMN YOU, MUPHRY 19:07:51 I don't like those timestamps 19:10:04 -!- ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating..."). 19:10:15 -!- ehird has joined. 19:10:17 -!- ehird has quit (Client Quit). 19:15:37 oerjan: it's actually written "write" 19:15:48 oh 19:15:52 you fixed that already 19:15:57 i'm terribly sorry. 19:16:09 YOU _WILL_ BE SORRY 19:26:04 -!- ehird has joined. 19:26:57 hey hey 19:26:57 guys 19:26:59 say something in 3 19:27:00 2 19:27:16 1 19:27:18 now 19:27:29 Too late! 19:27:57 bah, fizzie, put fungot in a bot loop will you 19:27:57 ehird: if the rule change as described by the minimum number of units of that pitch. the designation of an 19:28:00 for a bit. 19:28:26 bah 19:28:27 humbug 19:28:29 fnord 19:28:31 gip 19:28:33 graf 19:28:35 poop 19:28:35 glip 19:28:36 -!- rinsmaster has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:28:47 gnapoleon 19:30:44 by the way, look at my spiffy part message 19:30:44 -!- ehird has left (?). 19:30:49 -!- ehird has joined. 19:30:51 Spiffy, no 19:30:53 ? 19:30:58 Yes. 19:30:59 Spiffy. 19:31:03 Hmm. 19:31:06 It didn't do it. 19:31:09 Let's try again. 19:31:10 -!- ehird has left (?). 19:31:13 -!- ehird has joined. 19:31:22 Did it do it? 19:31:30 "Furthermore," 19:32:05 morder four 19:32:10 *murder 19:32:42 thermofurs 19:32:42 huray 19:32:47 thermoflask 19:46:20 -!- rinsmaster has joined. 19:54:55 rinsmaster ... the MASTER of RINSING 19:55:02 No one can rinse like rinsmaster. 19:55:11 hi rinsmaster 19:55:15 sacrificed the goats 19:55:15 ? 19:55:19 heh, hi all 19:55:34 do not take the goats lightly :| 19:55:48 what is rinsing actually 19:55:52 I'm not that good at english 19:55:58 @GregorR 19:56:02 the goats need some heavy scrubbing 19:56:16 my nick comes from my sirname: Rinsma 19:56:19 http://www.answers.com/rinsing 19:56:24 To wash lightly with water. 19:56:39 heh 19:57:08 * GregorR reappears 19:57:11 Yeah, what ehird said. 19:57:17 Not a skill many choose to master :P 19:57:25 hehe 19:57:31 I had no choise 19:57:35 I was born with it 19:57:49 rinsma on steroids 19:57:54 -!- GregorR has set topic: ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++>++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>++++++.>++++..<++++++++.>>++.-----------..<.+.<--.---------.>--.>-.<----.+++.<++.>>+.>.<<----.<--.+.>>.<--.+++.<+.>++++.>.<<--.>.----.+++++.<.>--.<++++.------.>>. HAHAH OKLOPOL. 19:58:08 ^bf ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++>++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>++++++.>++++..<++++++++.>>++.-----------..<.+.<--.---------.>--.>-.<----.+++.<++.>>+.>.<<----.<--.+.>>.<--.+++.<+.>++++.>.<<--.>.----.+++++.<.>--.<++++.------.>>. 19:58:08 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ 19:58:53 heh, an irc BF-bot? nice 19:59:06 * GregorR has one he never puts online anymore :P 19:59:13 rinsmaster: it's written in befunge. 19:59:26 http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 19:59:27 ehird: the ideal voting entitlement circulation level ( aicl) is the recordkeepor of the case was initiated is not 19:59:32 ah 19:59:57 [spam] I made a visual bf-interpreter a few months ago, using ncurses 20:00:09 it shows the stack status and you can step through the commands 20:00:13 [/spam] 20:00:22 :) 20:00:43 I should rewrite it in Bf though, the current one's in C 20:00:57 lol :) 20:01:20 But I guess calling libs isn't possible in bf 20:01:31 rinsmaster: that's not spam, it's more on-topic than what we usually have here :D 20:01:52 oerjan, ok :) 20:02:43 also, sgeo would probably try to push PSOX on you for interfacing bf with 20:04:01 and i'm sure someone mentioned a befunge curses fingerprint the other day, so at least some funge-98 interpreters probably have that 20:04:35 hmmmmmm 20:04:52 I may write my website in befunge. 20:04:54 I think I found a real rinsmaster.. http://commtechlab.msu.edu/sites/aslweb/R/W3389.htm 20:04:58 Asztal: FORFORFORFORFOR 20:05:09 rinsmaster: that's YOU! 20:05:23 nah 20:13:27 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:38:14 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 20:45:59 -!- Judofyr__ has joined. 20:56:20 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:57:12 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:03:57 -!- Traveler7 has joined. 21:04:47 -!- Traveler7 has quit (Client Quit). 21:04:47 -!- Judofyr__ has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:04:59 -!- Traveler7 has joined. 21:05:00 -!- Judofyr has joined. 21:06:00 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:06:10 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:06:23 -!- Traveler7 has quit (Client Quit). 21:10:23 -!- Asztal_ has joined. 21:17:11 Asztal: chunkybacon.org? 21:17:13 awesome 21:20:39 :) 21:21:10 Asztal: 's that on miau then? 21:21:21 not yet, it's irssi 21:21:23 unless you've always been connected on that hostname 21:21:25 and I just didn't notice 21:21:44 Asztal: what distro did you put on it? 21:22:57 I feel slightly shamed to say that it's ubanto, I'm considering debian instead 21:23:10 Asztal: I have ubuntu on my slice, too. 21:23:22 It's alright, I mean, it's Debian except stuff is less than 5 years old. 21:23:29 Asztal: I'd recommend compiling stuff by hand mostly, though. 21:23:36 (Use checkinstall to avoid cluttering stuff up). 21:23:46 Also, there are a few ssh tricks you can do to speed it up a lot if you're interested. 21:23:55 I am indeed interested :) 21:24:52 miau looks nice and small, too, better than muh hopefully 21:25:10 it's a muh fork 21:45:45 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:45:47 -!- Asztal__ has joined. 21:46:17 -!- Asztal__ has quit (Client Quit). 21:47:14 -!- psygnisfive has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:47:14 -!- Mony has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:47:16 -!- ehird has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:47:17 -!- puzzlet has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:47:17 -!- GregorR has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:47:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:47:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:47:18 -!- sebbu has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:47:18 -!- Asztal has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:47:19 -!- Asztal_ has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:47:20 -!- olopolo has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:47:20 -!- decipher has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:47:20 -!- rodgort has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:47:22 -!- Badger has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:47:22 -!- AnMaster has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:47:23 -!- lament has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:47:23 -!- Judofyr has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:47:23 -!- SimonRC has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:47:23 -!- mtve has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:49:37 -!- Asztal_ has joined. 21:49:37 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:49:37 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:49:37 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:49:37 -!- Judofyr has joined. 21:49:37 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:49:37 -!- ehird has joined. 21:49:37 -!- Asztal has joined. 21:49:37 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 21:49:37 -!- Mony has joined. 21:49:37 -!- puzzlet has joined. 21:49:37 -!- GregorR has joined. 21:49:37 -!- olopolo has joined. 21:49:37 -!- AnMaster has joined. 21:49:37 -!- SimonRC has joined. 21:49:37 -!- Badger has joined. 21:49:37 -!- rodgort has joined. 21:49:37 -!- decipher has joined. 21:49:37 -!- lament has joined. 21:49:37 -!- mtve has joined. 21:50:17 sleep! :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 21:50:17 -> 21:50:17 HUGE 21:50:18 i believe in chicken 21:50:19 and some other thing 21:50:19 s 21:50:20 death by chicken 21:50:21 i believe in angels 21:50:21 I believe in death by angel chickens 21:50:51 i believe in people who believes in death by angel chickens 21:51:04 wow 21:51:19 heh 21:51:36 let's not chicken out here 21:52:11 let's made an esolang named "death by angel chicken" 21:52:28 Commands: 21:52:38 death(X,Y) - X must be Angel. Y must be Chicken. 21:52:44 Death by X Y happens. 21:52:59 esolang of the year award plz 21:53:56 ^bf ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++>++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>++++++.>++++..<++++++++.>>++.-----------..<.+.<--.---------.>--.>-.<----.+++.<++.>>+.>.<<----.<--.+.>>.<--.+++.<+.>++++.>.<<--.>.----.+++++.<.>--.<++++.------.>>. 21:53:56 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ 21:54:04 :o 21:54:15 nice 21:54:28 i love esolangs :] 21:54:40 i love esolanging too 21:54:44 Mony: busy losing zen-ness points? 21:55:25 err... well... i don't understand >_> 21:55:42 that's SO zen 21:55:57 heh 21:56:00 hi ais523 21:56:07 now, when you manage to understand and not understand simultaneously, you are ready 21:56:08 how goes merging those patches from me btw? 21:56:12 for ick 21:56:46 not at all, I'm suffering from enforced holiday 21:56:56 ais523, oh? 21:56:59 what does that mean? 21:57:03 staying over with relatives 21:57:14 ais523, that is why you have internet? 21:57:17 yes 21:57:20 amazingly 21:57:21 relatives never have the internet 21:57:22 ever 21:57:24 I don't at home, as you know 21:57:31 i do 21:57:33 just my 2c 21:57:37 ais523, also any idea when you will be able to merge those my patches 21:57:51 well, then if I went on holiday at ehird's I'd have internet access 21:57:57 ehird, well usually relatives don't have internet that you can use, or it is 28 K modem + windows 98 21:58:00 that would not be much of a holiday 21:58:06 so yes I know what you mean 21:58:14 ehird: neither is this 21:58:27 ais523, why are you staying then :P 21:58:28 AnMaster: I'll merge the patches before the next version release 21:58:40 AnMaster: keyword enforced 21:58:41 ais523, any fixed release date yet? 21:58:43 AnMaster: I wouldn't be able to eat otherwise 21:58:46 AnMaster: no, there never is 21:58:52 ais523, out of money!? 21:58:53 ouch 21:58:55 although the chance of a release on or before April 1 is quite high 21:59:04 AnMaster: no, not out of money 21:59:14 then how do you mean not able to eat? 21:59:19 just I live with my family, and all the food's coming over here 21:59:24 heh 21:59:26 I would have to go shopping myself to avoid the holiday 21:59:37 "Wolfram prize winner squanders money in just a year" 21:59:40 ais523, 1) you live with your family 2) you don't have internet? 21:59:47 what sort of family is that ;P 21:59:52 no offence meant 21:59:58 AnMaster: one that he lives with and doesn't have internet? 22:00:01 I'm just going out on a limb here. 22:00:03 -!- kar8nga has joined. 22:00:04 ehird, well yeah 22:00:07 duh 22:00:09 Making wild and wacky assumptions, y'know. 22:00:18 AnMaster: actually I get a lot more work done when I'm not Internet-connecte 22:00:20 *connected 22:00:20 but it is unusual 22:00:23 ais523, heh 22:00:28 for instance, nearly all my ick work is done without Internet access 22:00:34 also nearly all my work for University 22:00:35 i couldn't really use a computer without the internet. 22:00:40 ais523, I get a lot more done when I have access to google 22:00:57 or I would be coding NIH-style 22:01:08 I love coding NIH-style. 22:01:12 which equals to getting less useful done 22:01:27 you work on cfunge 22:01:29 ehird, I don't reinvent an existing library unless there is a very good reason 22:01:32 it's not useful anyway 22:01:38 I use existing libraries 22:01:43 for a lot of common things 22:01:46 AnMaster: I don't normally end up doing the sort of thing that needs libraries, existing or not 22:01:54 I reinvent existing libraries because most libraries suck hard. 22:02:07 ehird, well that is a good reason to do it 22:02:20 AnMaster: I have high standards. 22:02:22 but just consider stuff like this nice genx you recommended to me ehird 22:02:30 Yes, genx is good. 22:02:35 AnMaster: But you didn't want to use it. :P 22:02:59 ehird, I did use it, I just said I had to fix a lot of code in it, because it didn't use "const" where it should, causing a lot of warnings 22:03:04 also there were a few other issues 22:03:07 AnMaster: "fix" is arguable. 22:03:11 The code worked beforehand. 22:03:16 ehird, there was a mem leak too iirc 22:03:19 all you did was satisfy a pedantic compiler that should be able to work that out for itself 22:03:23 check the revision history for details 22:03:23 ok, memory leak i can understand. 22:03:24 :P 22:03:27 I assume you've submitted patches. 22:03:37 ehird, I think I did, but mail bounced 22:03:43 so I didn't bother then 22:03:48 To Tim Bray? That's a bit unlikely. 22:03:59 ehird, black listing the isp I use iirc 22:04:01 *shrug* 22:04:15 AnMaster: where did you send it to? tim.bray@sun.com? 22:04:25 ehird, whatever was listed on the genx website 22:04:27 I don't remember 22:04:32 it was several months ago 22:05:02 * ehird looks 22:05:04 whatever was listed in the genx code and/or on the genx website 22:05:11 could have been either 22:05:29 I don't see an email. 22:05:43 ehird, must have been in the library source then 22:05:50 *shrug* 22:05:50 http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/genx/genx.c 22:05:52 nope 22:06:37 ehird, then I don't know from where, oh wait just an idea: maybe the website changed 22:06:40 yes I think it has 22:06:48 it used to have a yellow theme I think 22:06:52 Er, no. 22:06:55 It was like that last time. 22:07:04 Also, the last-mod date is 2004 :P 22:07:11 true 22:08:00 I should write a library. 22:08:04 AnMaster: what should I write a library for? 22:08:40 well it was linked somewhere on the site, may not have been the genx part. but checking my email address tab complete one *was* sent to tim.bray@sun.com 22:08:56 ehird, hm library 22:08:58 what language? 22:09:02 C or python or what? 22:09:04 C, probably. 22:09:07 hm 22:09:23 I could write Yet Another String Library, if I hated myself. I don't, though. 22:09:37 ehird, hm something like lua, embedded scripting language, but embedding an esolang 22:09:38 like 22:09:39 ehird: you should write a library for libraries, so you can do libraries while you do libraries. dawg. 22:09:52 using intercal for embedded scripting language 22:09:53 or whatever 22:10:04 oerjan, that idea was nice too 22:10:12 AnMaster: That's not very helpful because they generally don't let you do non-stdio IO 22:10:12 <- always at the tail end of the newest memes 22:10:26 ehird, hm you have to expand a bit yes 22:10:36 Also, INTERCAL would require reading ick's source. 22:10:42 And, uh 22:10:42 . 22:10:52 "ick" 22:11:03 ehird, I made patches to ick and I can say it isn't that bad 22:11:27 hm whatever you select: need to be some language with a "syntax", and has functions or something like it 22:11:31 so intercal would work 22:11:42 you could add entry points like that 22:11:49 I think I'd rather make something else. :P 22:11:53 ehird, but it would be hard in brainfuck 22:11:57 or befunge 22:12:38 ehird: CLC-INTERCAL has non-stdio IO 22:12:45 hah! 22:12:51 ais523, it is perl though 22:12:54 * ehird kills himself 22:13:08 * oerjan performs the autopsy 22:13:47 also befunge has non-stdio IO 22:14:01 but it doesn't work due to the other previously mentioned issues 22:14:29 it has entry points, of a sort 22:14:39 ehird, what is your opinion on PHP PDO? Yes it sucks because it is PHP, but apart from that? 22:14:45 umm 22:14:47 it's php. 22:14:55 i mean that's like 22:15:04 hey ehird what's your opinion on this java library 22:15:05 ehird, yes exactly, but what about the pdo module? 22:15:11 AnMaster: it's against his religion to comment on a php program 22:15:14 What does it do again? 22:15:17 oerjan, ah! 22:15:21 ehird, database abstraction 22:15:21 Ah, DB layer. 22:15:24 yes 22:15:38 Doesn't look all that hot; maybe as a backing for an ORM. 22:15:43 But I wouldn't use it raw. 22:15:51 Correction: I wouldn't use PHP. 22:16:00 ORM? Ocular Ramification Manager? 22:16:12 Object-Relational Mapper. 22:16:13 hey ehird 22:16:15 ah 22:16:18 tl;dr - It puts yer tables in objects. 22:16:35 ehird, spelling("tl;dr")? 22:16:41 Too Long; Didn't Read. 22:16:44 ah 22:16:48 ehird: actually, it puts your rows in objects 22:16:52 and your tables in classes :p 22:16:54 psygnisfive: Thank you for that. 22:17:07 unless youre using ruby where classes are objects 22:17:08 then yes 22:17:09 ;D 22:17:19 Wow, because that is a Ruby-specific feature. 22:17:25 no it isn't 22:17:28 no 22:17:34 Wow, because you can detect sarcasm, AnMaster. 22:17:48 just because you here more about ORM and EEISO these days from ruby than anything else 22:17:54 ehird, I did, and I was clarifying it for psygnisfive 22:17:58 no you don't, psygnisfive 22:18:04 i do! 22:18:08 You hear more about it from them because that's all you're listening to. 22:18:18 im not listening to them at all 22:18:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 22:18:56 * AnMaster is listening to Mendelssohn - Violin Concerto in E minor, Op.64 2nd. mvmt 22:19:04 AnMaster: Please no. 22:19:11 We don't need that spam in here ... 22:19:11 ehird, it was hand typed 22:19:14 and indeed 22:19:20 I was watching the reactions 22:19:23 it is always interesting 22:19:27 I dislike it myself 22:19:31 :P 22:19:32 * ehird is listening to 500 kittens - I LOVE KITTENS AND RABIES (9999999999999:999) 22:19:37 * ehird is listening to 500 kittens - I LOVE KITTENS AND BABIES (9999999999999:999) 22:19:41 * ehird is listening to 500 kittens - I LOVE KITTENS AND SATAN (6:66) 22:19:42 O_O 22:19:44 exactly 22:19:54 ehird, it sucks I fully agree 22:20:16 Wow, because you can detect a social experiment, ehird. 22:20:20 * psygnisfive is listening to Iron Maiden - Number of the Beast 22:20:27 psygnisfive, argh 22:20:27 no 22:20:30 * oerjan is listening to computer fan 22:20:35 oerjan++ 22:20:40 AnMaster: intolerant much 22:20:44 anmaster, you dont like the song? 22:20:47 ehird, oh yes 22:20:48 its a great song! 22:20:56 AnMaster doesn't like anything that isn't classical. 22:20:59 psygnisfive, I don't like now playing, and I don't like rock 22:21:05 or rap or whatever that is 22:21:09 ... 22:21:16 IRON MAIDEN: Rock or rap. Or whatever that is. Get off my lawn. 22:21:21 ehird, what? 22:21:21 i think because you dont even know what genre it is 22:21:33 psygnisfive, well what is it then? 22:21:33 that you cant justifiably make a comment on it because of its genre. 22:21:42 ill let you figure that out, you're smart 22:22:07 psygnisfive, I think I read before what genre it was, but I don't remember exactly 22:22:14 one of those on r iirc 22:22:21 what 22:22:24 so yes it makes sense 22:22:51 i think anmaster might be drunk 22:22:54 "Iron Maiden are a British heavy metal band", so yes rock 22:23:02 heavy metal is not rock 22:23:03 thanks for playing 22:23:06 psygnisfive, I never drink alcohol 22:23:12 "Heavy metal (often referred to simply as metal) is a genre of rock music[1]" 22:23:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music 22:23:21 AnMaster: not all genres with guitars in are rock 22:23:23 wikipedia is wrong in that regard. 22:23:29 psygnisfive, citation? 22:23:43 correctness > citation 22:23:44 guantanamo music 22:23:54 psygnisfive, since wikipedia has a citation for that I suggest you add a citation for your statement too 22:23:59 oh shut up AnMaster 22:24:08 thats sort of like saying that hip hop is a genre of rock 22:24:12 just because they have a goddamn citation and psygnisfive doesn't doesn't mean they're right 22:24:12 or rock is a genre of blues 22:24:14 and in Sweden heavy metal is known as "heavy metal rock" 22:24:15 so 22:24:16 its' subjective to a degree 22:24:17 I would agree' 22:24:22 but not totally 22:24:23 s/'// 22:24:42 ehird, and in Sweden heavy metal is known as "heavy metal rock" 22:24:54 yeah who gives a shit what it is in your language 22:25:00 ehird, you don't I see 22:25:02 AnMaster, in American, heavy metal is known as "heavy metal not rock" 22:25:04 i'm sure you could derive all sorts of crap from english words 22:25:05 ehird: everyone who speaks Swedish? 22:25:11 psygnisfive, maybe it is, *shrug* 22:25:12 ais523: in context. 22:25:31 ais523, would you call heavy metal a type of rock or not? 22:26:00 heavy metal is itself a genre of metal 22:26:31 Metal is rock-descended, but it is not rock. 22:28:29 i bet anmaster thinks punk is a genre of rock 22:28:34 AnMaster: I don't know, I've never listened to it 22:28:40 no I don't think punk is that 22:28:43 psygnisfive, why would I? 22:28:57 because punk has about as much connection to rock as metal does 22:28:59 except less so 22:29:03 since metal diverged earlier 22:29:46 psygnisfive, however wikipedia has this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock 22:29:52 *shrug' 22:29:56 s/'/*/ 22:30:02 OH NO ANMASTER PUNK IS ROCK YOU WERE WRONG 22:30:33 psygnisfive, what the heck are you on? 22:30:44 a chair. 22:30:50 psygnisfive, good for you 22:31:02 AnMaster: wikipedia is not always correct just because someone who they deem reliable says so 22:31:04 but something else too or you wouldn't use all caps 22:31:23 that was sarcasti-emphasis. 22:31:27 ehird, dont bother 22:31:34 anmaster has proven his lack of intelligence. 22:31:41 ehird, I don't think wikipedia is always reliable, but I always heard heavy metal referred to as a type of rock 22:32:11 and Finland is a Nordic country. 22:32:21 AnMaster is swedish. 22:32:26 I know. 22:32:55 a large number of swedonoregmarkians dislike it when Finland is said to be nordic. 22:33:33 interesting, if anyone agreed with you two I would expect to see something about it on the talk page on wikipedia 22:33:51 /facepalm 22:33:53 there is nothing as far as I can see at a quick glance about heavy metal not being a type or rock 22:34:01 psygnisfive: i think you are confusing nordic with scandinavian 22:34:03 everything is tribal music 22:34:07 because it descended from tribal music 22:34:08 same thing 22:34:09 :P 22:34:10 My logic is _infallable_ 22:34:11 psygnisfive, and Finland is nordic, what about it? 22:34:13 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:34:21 * oerjan swats psygnisfive -----### 22:34:26 rawr 22:34:28 do it again ;O 22:35:56 everything is primordial grunts 22:36:17 everything is the big bang 22:36:19 ook ook ook 22:38:34 Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook! 22:39:34 Ook. Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook. 22:39:56 is there a OokOok interpreter bot here ? :p 22:41:38 That one was equivalent to +[. 22:41:45 sed + fungot would work 22:41:46 AnMaster: a transfer takes place when the first subsequent publication of a forum without objection that the organization have no effect, 22:41:53 ^help 22:41:53 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 22:41:55 ^style 22:41:56 Available: agora* alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 22:42:00 hm 22:42:21 ^style irc 22:42:21 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 22:42:52 ^style agora 22:42:52 Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical) 22:51:18 ehird, why changing back? Have anything against other styles? 22:51:23 yes. 22:51:24 they are not agora. 22:57:52 Man, Agora is so much better than . 22:57:53 B 22:58:20 ehird: feel free to storm out of ##nomic in a huff because you don't like it; however, do not feel free to turn #esoteric into ##nomic as a consequence 22:58:45 #esoteric is always offtopic. deal with it 22:58:57 we could make an #esoteric nomic whose only rule was that nomic games in #esoteric are forbidden 22:59:11 oerjan: where's the self-amendment? 22:59:33 ehird: that's done purely using scams 23:00:06 we could have a fake history of how the self-amendment rule was amended away 23:00:20 oerjan: arguably a game ceases to be a nomic if that happens 23:00:22 -!- ehird has set topic: #esotermic: Rule 1. Games of nomic cabot be played in #esoteric.. 23:00:44 "Cabot" is a little-known word meaning "can be amended, this is one, and this is the only method by which they can" 23:00:52 i see Muphry is a player 23:01:09 "Games of nomic acn be amended, this is one, and this is the only method by which they can be played in #esoteric." 23:01:11 Luvely. 23:01:39 olopolo: ehird's taken the log link out of the topic again 23:01:47 ais523: it wasn't there a second ago. 23:01:52 yes it was 23:01:55 just it wasn't written in English 23:02:02 nor in ASCII 23:02:15 ais523: yeah a turing complete language isn't a valid form of expressing a constant :P 23:02:17 also, is esotermic somewhere between endotermic and exotermic? 23:02:51 ehird: that isn't TC, that was written in single-loop BF which is clearly a non-TC language 23:03:05 ok, s/turing complete/possibly-infinite/ 23:03:39 hey, esolangs are much better than B too. 23:03:43 the possibilities are endless. 23:03:47 AnMaster: come up with a library for me to make yet? 23:04:32 ehird, I made my suggestion 23:04:36 and so did oerjan iirc 23:04:41 both were good IMO 23:04:44 oerjan's was a meme joke. 23:04:46 and no I don't have any other 23:04:52 ehird, yes so why not do it still 23:05:02 oh that would be good 23:05:04 memlib 23:05:04 a library for a library is so vague it's hopeless 23:05:05 or 23:05:07 libmeme 23:05:15 libmeme or memeli b 23:05:15 C'est la même chose 23:05:16 err 23:05:18 libmeme or memelib 23:05:28 libibido 23:05:43 oerjan, I don't know French... "This is the meme ?) 23:05:45 err 23:05:50 s7)/"/ 23:05:52 gah 23:05:56 s/7/\// 23:06:05 "It's the same thing", i think 23:06:09 ah 23:07:17 it's part of a famous quote 23:07:31 oh? who said/wrote it? 23:08:17 not sure 23:08:31 possibly s/quote/idiom/ 23:10:32 ah 23:11:05 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Alphonse_Karr 23:11:05 -!- Asztal_ has quit ("leaving"). 23:12:54 * ehird hacks up irc client to display quicklog timestamp as _real_ timestamp 23:13:00 nice solution or what :) 23:14:13 -!- Asztal_ has joined. 23:14:36 http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/frosclearlen.html Think these look too dorky as a mount for a HMD? 23:14:42 hm 23:14:52 ehird, nice indeed 23:14:59 ehird, what bnc are you using now? 23:15:03 AnMaster: miau, it's great 23:15:07 ah nice 23:15:07 http://miau.sourceforge.net/ 23:15:24 nicely, the client I use is written in ruby + cocoa 23:15:26 ehird, most likely not going to change since I have a working solution myself 23:15:29 so this should be easy enough 23:15:41 * ehird will part/join in rapid succession as he debugs, though :P 23:15:52 but you won't see it 23:15:56 due to bouncerimation 23:16:01 ehird, indeed 23:16:12 znc has the same feature if I want 23:16:17 I can turn on sticky channel 23:16:36 hai 23:16:39 in fact I have set #esoteric as sticky 23:16:47 afk for a bit 23:16:58 rehai 23:17:07 ok,shows up as PRIVMSG #esoteric :rehai 23:17:21 this will be the place 23:17:30 AnMaster: can you please say hi in 3 seconds, twice? 23:17:32 thx 23:18:52 revehai 23:19:47 well thanks oerjan 23:20:40 oerjan: do it again please? 23:21:39 hvithai 23:22:07 EXCELLERATING DEBUGGINOMS 23:22:11 ^.^ 23:22:31 ["23:21 ", nil, " ", "Playing quicklog...", :notice, :myself, "ehird", nil, false, 2] 23:22:33 ["23:21 ", nil, " ", "End of quicklog.", :notice, :myself, "ehird", nil, false, 2] 23:22:37 Hokay. 23:22:47 So, when that happens, i go into quicklog mode. 23:26:08 hey oerjan 23:26:10 wanna do it a third time? :3 23:26:20 -!- ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating..."). 23:26:25 -!- ehird has joined. 23:26:30 I don't think that was ment to happen.. 23:26:57 so that's what happens when i notice a ping too late 23:27:02 * oerjan feels the power 23:27:19 food -> 23:28:17 did that WORK? 23:28:19 holy cee-rap 23:28:25 it effing worked 23:28:28 AnMaster: this is AMAZING. 23:28:30 :O 23:28:43 I modified a full GUI application by adding a few lines and 23:28:45 tried it the first time 23:28:46 and it worked. 23:28:48 completely. 23:28:50 THAT IS AWESOME. 23:28:51 :D 23:29:06 a 23:29:08 a 23:29:09 a 23:29:12 Ah, maybe slight problem. 23:29:24 were those as deliberate? 23:29:39 Nope, no problem. 23:29:41 ais523: what 23:29:48 you said a three times 23:29:54 ah 23:29:55 yes 23:29:56 I was asking if it was deliberate 23:29:57 oh, crap, he won 23:30:01 triple A :( 23:31:07 lol 23:31:08 http://pastie.org/348641 23:31:25 ^ the entirety of the changes I had to do to get quicklog timestamps as the real timestamps 23:31:57 well 23:31:59 I also added that end 23:32:01 :P 23:32:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 23:33:25 it works perfectly 23:33:28 aaaaaawwwwwwwwwweeeeeeeeesoooooommmmmmmmeeeeeee 23:33:43 AnMaster: BET YOU COULDN'T DO THAT WITH YER X11 AND YER KDE AND YER C++ 23:34:33 bye 23:34:40 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 23:34:41 http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/frosclearlen.html Think these look too dorky as a mount for a HMD? 23:36:30 GregorR: THIS IS TOTALLY KICKASS. 23:36:58 ... not a useful answer :P 23:37:22 no i mean 23:37:24 MY LOGGER 23:37:25 is kickass 23:37:27 * oerjan was reminded of the xkcd comic about cory doctorow. admittedly that was before he clicked the link 23:37:27 :3 23:37:58 m wait what's an HMD 23:38:35 ah 23:38:38 Head-mounted display 23:38:56 bu 23:38:56 t 23:38:57 i think that means the answer is yes a priori 23:38:59 a 23:39:06 without even looking at the glasses 23:39:28 HMDs = instant awesome, if you can't see that then your opinion is invalidated :P 23:39:44 back 23:39:44 23:39 Error(477): #esoteric [freenode-info] help freenode weed out clonebots, please register your IRC nick and auto-identify: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup 23:39:47 ^ fuck off freenode 23:39:48 things can be instant awesome in a dorky way 23:40:11 AnMaster: can you please say hi in 3 seconds, twice? <-- you didn't see this like 3 lines above: afk for a bit 23:40:46 AnMaster: BET YOU COULDN'T DO THAT WITH YER X11 AND YER KDE AND YER C++ <-- ?? I don't code in C++ 23:40:54 yes and? 23:40:57 and I believe you could do it in lisp 23:41:02 sure you could. 23:41:03 which is what my irc client is coded in 23:41:06 but it's easier in ruby. :P 23:41:10 is there a correlation between not coding in C++ and not drinking alcohol? 23:41:15 plus it'd be just as easy to modify the cocoa gui. 23:41:30 ehird, how is X11 related to changing timestamps? 23:41:38 for me irc client and X11 aren't related 23:41:42 because my irc client is a graphical app, because I live in the 21st century 23:41:43 and you don't 23:41:44 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:42:05 ehird, well, since irc is textual, it is still mainly text centric 23:42:18 name list, channel list, etc. 23:42:20 topic bar 23:42:24 sure indeed 23:42:31 ehird, what is the !!? 23:42:36 looks like a strange type of diff 23:42:40 AnMaster: see the top of the paste 23:42:44 ah 23:42:45 right 23:43:00 ehird, what is wrong with the normal diff -u format? 23:43:08 i didn't store a copy of the original. 23:43:13 ah ok makes senser 23:43:15 sense* 23:43:15 :P 23:43:32 Wonder if miau can reload the rc without restarting. Ah, fuck it. 23:43:36 -!- ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating..."). 23:43:39 -!- ehird has joined. 23:43:42 ehird, right there is nothing that using coca there as far as I can see 23:43:56 it would work just the same if it did console output 23:44:01 AnMaster: no, there isn't 23:44:03 but I meant I could do it with a gui part just as easily :P 23:44:03 since it only changes time stamps it seems 23:44:08 see ^ 23:44:16 AnMaster: BET YOU COULDN'T DO THAT WITH YER X11 AND YER KDE AND YER C++ 23:44:16 err 23:44:21 that sounded like not so 23:44:33 I was just trolling. :p 23:45:05 right 23:45:17 ehird, I believe it would be rather easy in erc too 23:45:20 I wonder what the best practice is for something that seems like an /etc/init.d/ thing, but that is for one specific user. 23:45:27 I would just have to change the format output hook a bit 23:45:33 I already use a custom one 23:45:34 miau runs as my user and uses ~/.miau/ for stuff. 23:45:37 so I could easily do it 23:45:46 But putting something in init.d that sudos as me and runs miau seems redonkulous. 23:46:02 redonkulous? 23:46:17 No definitions were found for redonkulous. 23:46:20 sigh 23:46:22 try urbandictionary :P 23:46:31 ah 23:46:53 i don't actually know the origins 23:46:56 but everyone uses it. 23:47:11 first time I have seen it on irc 23:47:22 ridiculous in the way of a small donkey, i assume 23:47:39 oerjan, is a small donkey ridiculous? 23:47:42 very 23:47:47 hm ok 23:47:51 if it's small enough 23:47:59 like you can hold it in your hand 23:48:04 well ok 23:48:07 true 23:48:13 that would be very ridiculous 23:48:31 Huh. 23:48:35 Root is runnin gdd. 23:48:37 Why 23:48:38 ? 23:48:41 *running dd 23:48:41 gdd? 23:48:43 ah 23:48:56 ehird, oh that's just me copying ur passwords 23:49:05 ;P 23:49:07 ur in my rutian, copying mah passwords? 23:49:08 zomg!! 23:49:23 $ ps -A|wc -l 23:49:23 58 23:49:25 ehird, All ur passwords are belong to me 23:49:27 Minimal enough. 23:49:53 I actually have less packages installed than the default minimal server install 23:49:53 $ dpkg-query -W|wc -l 23:49:54 177 23:49:59 default is around 220 or something 23:50:24 You have no time to chance survive your make 23:50:31 (yoda version) 23:50:46 (and yes also reversed in other parts) 23:50:47 $ make your time 23:50:47 make: *** No rule to make target `your'. Stop. 23:50:55 ehird, heh 23:51:10 the original is "You have no chance to survive make your time." btw 23:51:59 i know. 23:51:59 ehird@rutian:~$ make "awesome'. This is unacceptable. As Ghandi said, \`I am appalled" 23:52:00 make: *** No rule to make target `awesome'. This is unacceptable. As Ghandi said, `I am appalled'. Stop. 23:52:41 ehird, what is the quote from? I mean not the Ghandi part, but the rest 23:52:44 you should enable make_magic_quotes! 23:52:48 AnMaster: nothing 23:52:50 Asztal: FOR 23:52:59 ehird, ok then WHY? 23:53:05 AnMaster: why not 23:53:09 true 23:53:13 $ make up a reason 23:53:13 make: *** No rule to make target `up'. Stop. 23:53:17 nop can't 23:53:25 that actually makes sense 23:53:25 :^) 23:53:31 indeed 23:53:47 people should use :^) more 23:53:48 ehird, and it gave you the reason as well 23:53:55 ehird, what does that one mean? 23:54:08 I mean in what way does the meaning differ from :) 23:54:25 ^ is a nose. 23:54:29 except a cooler nose than - 23:54:31 true 23:54:38 but does it have the same meaning? 23:54:49 ehird, also we all know ^ is eye: ^_^ 23:54:52 ;P 23:57:40 :^_^) 23:57:48 oerjan, nice one 23:57:57 oerjan, "one swollen ear"? 23:58:09 or hm what could it be in the other direction 23:58:31 :^ 23:58:32 awwwwwww 23:58:34 look at its smile 23:58:37 or 23:58:39 beak 23:58:43 haha 23:58:46 beakies? 23:58:55 ^: 23:58:57 that would like, rock 23:59:01 it's ALSO HAPPY 23:59:17 AnMaster: i think it's impossible to make a beakie do anything but smil 23:59:17 e 23:59:28 ehird, maybe with some unicode? 23:59:37 or if not: irc will be a happier place 23:59:38 :†^ 23:59:41 :^V 23:59:42 since no one can be unhappy 23:59:43 :D 2008-12-30: 00:00:41 happiness is mandatory 00:02:40 oerjan, :) 00:03:47 * oerjan wonders if AnMaster got the reference 00:04:02 oerjan, no 00:04:09 what reference? 00:04:48 it's from the Paranoia roleplaying game. if you're not happy, you're terminated. 00:05:04 oerjan: murphy just advertised his ParaNomic XP game. 00:05:11 nice coincidence :^) 00:05:53 * oerjan envisions color-coded rules 00:06:07 http://asynchronous.org/paranomic-xp/index.php?title=Main_Page & http://groups.google.com/group/paranomic-xp 00:08:01 finally spammers get the proper treatment 00:08:47 -!- GregorR has joined. 00:09:01 xchat crashed again! I can barely believe it! 00:09:09 http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/frosclearlen.html or http://safetyglassesusa.com/19742.html 00:10:21 http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/999999.html 00:20:58 genres are a stupid 00:21:01 also morning 00:24:55 evening 00:25:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:36:16 finally 00:36:20 logs have been read 00:36:43 lol 00:37:19 olopolo: Furthermore, 00:37:19 how insensitive. 00:38:03 Furthermore,? 00:38:20 oh. 00:38:21 yes. 00:38:23 Furthermore,. 00:38:25 well bye 00:39:38 olopolo: what 00:39:49 what. 00:40:02 olopolo: what 00:40:04 j is so awesome 00:40:18 k 00:40:30 understanding short code snippets is always an adventure 01:06:12 -!- devo has joined. 01:06:13 -!- devo has left (?). 01:19:35 so 01:19:59 my little honors thesis project basically involves a graph rewriting component 01:20:32 which i suppose means that, since graph rewriting languages are equivalent to turing machines 01:20:44 that my little model of language has the potential to be turing complete 01:20:45 :O 01:45:53 -!- EgoBot has joined. 01:46:03 !help 01:46:13 Promising. 01:46:31 ... it received it ... 01:46:35 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:51:14 -!- EgoBot has joined. 01:51:18 !help 01:51:45 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:53:29 -!- EgoBot has joined. 01:53:37 !help 01:53:45 OH COME ON 01:53:46 help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon 01:53:51 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl 01:54:09 Oh ... hm, now it's trying to spam blank lines 8-D 01:54:15 !raw QUIT 01:54:29 psygnisfive: col 01:54:35 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:55:28 -!- olopolo has changed nick to oklopol. 01:55:28 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:06:47 col? 02:08:32 it's a lazy cool 02:08:41 i see 02:09:33 The oklopol alphabet: bdhklopq 02:09:51 h isn't really my type 02:10:08 oblodohokloloplol 02:10:25 "pl" isn't right 02:11:08 bl is a bit iffy too 02:11:16 i wonder if we could do some statistics on oklopols various names to see if theres some general trends beyond only using o as a vowel 02:11:39 lets see 02:11:43 doo it 02:11:52 oklopol oklofok olopolo 02:11:59 what else 02:12:12 Clearly, we should only use certain digraphs. 02:12:28 Initial and final letters count as digraphs. You're not allowed to start with anything but o. 02:12:51 oklopol what else have you used 02:13:16 umm. 02:13:20 a lot of stuff. 02:13:32 tell me! 02:13:45 oklokok is #3, probably 02:13:54 oklokok is whats between your legs 02:14:04 but ok 02:14:10 oklopolofoko 02:14:20 oklopol oklofok olopolo oklokok 02:14:24 lol 02:14:27 psygnisfive: i don't see your point 02:14:36 yes, that's the etymology 02:15:07 I want to make a random oklopol generator. 02:15:26 so the regex so far is /olopolo|(oklo(pol|fok|kok))/ 02:15:48 we might expect that this generalizes to /olopolo|(oklo(p|f|k)o(l|k))/ 02:15:57 You're not going to make a regex that recognizes anything containing only those digraphs? 02:16:07 I did that once for the name "GreenReaper". The resulting regex was very long. 02:16:22 suggesting that you could also use oklopok, oklofol, oklokol, oklopok 02:16:36 i could. 02:16:43 warrigal: what digraphs? 02:16:45 On "oklopol" only: /o(klo|po)*l/ 02:16:46 and i think i have, at least a few of them 02:16:59 psygnisfive: the digraphs in "oklopol" and "oklofok" and "olopolo" and "oklokok". 02:17:33 you mean ok lo po ko and fo? 02:18:14 we have no evidence for the oklo name language being more general than that, warrigal 02:18:29 No, ok, kl, lo, op, po, ol, of, fo, ko, as well as initial o and final l, k, and o. 02:18:31 we just have olopolo, oklopol, oklofok, and oklokok 02:19:29 oklopol says might have also used some of oklopok, oklofol, oklokol 02:19:45 "fof" wouldn't really belong in the family 02:19:47 -!- oklopol has changed nick to fof. 02:19:51 but it's pretty cute. 02:19:54 :-) 02:20:07 so like i said it seems we might be able to generalize to /olopolo|(oklo(p|f|k)o(l|k))/ 02:20:28 oklopoll was my secondary nick at some point 02:20:36 with two l's? 02:20:45 yess 02:20:47 well thats an orthographic variant of l, lets say 02:21:08 i've also been oklodol and oklodok 02:21:12 maybe even oklodoll :D 02:21:24 hmm 02:21:25 ok: /olopolo|(oklo(d|p|f|k)o(ll?|k))/ 02:21:34 variantness would account for doll nicely too 02:22:15 fof: well, ofofofofo would fit. 02:22:27 Secondary stress on the first syllable, primary stress on the penultimate. 02:22:32 hey cool. i should make like a mirc script on that info 02:22:46 warrigal: it would fit what? 02:22:49 Warrigal: where do you get that? 02:22:51 your imagined digraph patterns? 02:22:59 none of his names display that pattern. 02:23:12 all of them except olopolo have oklo- prefix 02:23:14 all my nicks have primary stress on the first syllable 02:23:44 methinks warrigal is silly 02:23:57 well, that's just how he is 02:24:34 -!- fof has changed nick to oklodol. 02:24:38 ! 02:24:52 Now you have That Letter NetHack Uses To Represent Canines. 02:25:04 Actually, all canids, I think. Foxes are d, aren't they? 02:25:05 this is a rather gay nick 02:25:10 but i like it :| 02:25:23 i would probably use it a lot if it wasn't so gay 02:25:30 oklodol looks like a pill women take to prevent bloating 02:25:32 Warrigal: i don't play 02:25:37 midol, and its sister drug, oklodol 02:25:43 hehe 02:25:44 I wonder what makes a nick gay. 02:25:48 oklodoll is cuter 02:25:50 and defiitely gayer 02:25:56 much more suited to you, oklo. 02:26:18 i think dol is a cuter suffix 02:26:23 Does "gay" mean "embarrasing or perceived to be perverted" or something? 02:26:27 no 02:26:29 it means homosexual. 02:26:35 as in, "oklo-ish" 02:26:44 even tho hes oklosexual. 02:26:47 Warrigal: you don't know what gay means? :D 02:27:36 I don't think you meant "This nick kind of likes to have sex with other nicks of the same gender". 02:27:53 ofcourse thats what he meant 02:27:59 6!:2 '(6!:3) 3' 02:27:59 3.03061 02:28:03 * oklodol giggles 02:28:11 what? lol 02:28:23 yeah it's pretty funny :D 02:28:37 J? 02:28:45 yes, i hope you don't know it 02:28:50 because that sure as hell was not funny. 02:29:03 How gay would the nick "Warridal" be, then? 02:29:13 less so? 02:29:20 Less than "oklodol"? 02:29:21 i mean you're a warry gal 02:29:29 "kitty can scratch" 02:29:45 I hope nobody interprets the "gal" at the end as meaning I'm female. :-P 02:30:07 Maybe I should emphasise the pronunciation by changing it to "Warrigle" or something, even though it would no longer be spelled right. 02:30:08 for the purposes of assessing gayness they might 02:30:33 That "a" is just about silent, even. 02:30:38 how about WarryGal 02:30:52 yes, i know what pronunciation you're going for 02:31:11 don't assume i don't know everything, it's demeaning 02:31:29 Sorry, but aren't I supposed to be the all-knowing one in this conversation? 02:31:53 I find it most very offensive when you pretend I make mistakes. 02:32:33 i find it most offensive you're offended by your mom 02:32:46 You're like Hitler. 02:32:49 Glad that argument's over. 02:33:37 warrigal: its not about silent at all 02:33:54 its a schwa, not silence. 02:34:08 psygnisfive: he knows, he's lojbanese 02:34:12 Lojbanised: .UORigl. 02:34:19 ^ behold. 02:34:25 pfft 02:34:29 Except where the "i" is the lojban pretend-it-isn't-there i. 02:34:34 lojban is an ugly language 02:34:43 psygnisfive: that's hardly the point 02:34:48 the point is i read his mind 02:35:13 "this term, i've heard it in lojban contexts, let's lojban it up" 02:35:34 of course, that probably isn't what he thought, but that's hardly the point either 02:35:47 there is no point, only mindless characters 02:35:48 I haven't heard the word "Warrigal" in lojban contexts. 02:35:50 wandering around 02:35:53 (Alternatively, .UORigyl.) 02:36:20 i mean, he didn't actually seem to respond to schwa with that lojban comment 02:36:46 well. we will never know 02:37:02 7!:2 '+a' NB. But + (conjugate) does, even for a real array 02:37:02 576 02:37:08 lol okay *that* is funny 02:37:13 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:37:18 Is it .UORigl. or .UORigyl.? The world may never know. 02:37:24 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 02:37:27 -!- Judofyr has quit. 02:37:30 of course now it's not enough if you know j, you'd have to know what i'm talking about. 02:38:27 J is such an interesting language 02:38:45 is that trying to be sarcasm 02:38:50 nope! 02:38:53 i like J 02:38:55 good 02:38:57 its weird 02:38:58 yeah it's awesome 02:39:00 and thus wonderful 02:39:02 also 02:39:21 ive been tempted to try and design a lisp processor that doesn't simulate lisp with registers 02:39:32 but instead is actually a lisp machine 02:40:00 juno wudaimeen? 02:40:05 might be niec 02:40:39 i think eino 02:40:44 i mean, all the lisp processors ive seen are sort of register based 02:41:09 with stacks for storing register state for recursion and other nested function calls 02:41:24 but when you hand evaluate lisp you dont do this at all 02:41:36 yeah, whereas the processor should definitely understand regexes 02:41:43 lol 02:41:48 WHAT 02:41:48 obviously 02:41:52 DID I SAY REGEXES 02:41:55 THAT'S SO WHAT I MEANT. 02:42:09 i think processors should understand thue. 02:42:22 (i *occasionally* meant sexps) 02:42:28 also, earlier i realized why graph rewriting is obviously TC 02:43:35 why then? 02:43:58 because kolmogorov proved it or because you can encode thue in it? 02:43:59 * Warrigal decides to ignore this channel until someone says his name 02:44:03 Warrigal 02:44:12 * Warrigal decides to ignore this channel until someone says his name again 02:44:16 Warrigal 02:44:19 * Warrigal decides to ignore this channel until someone says his name again again 02:44:23 Warrigal 02:44:26 because you can trivially encode a Type-0 language in it 02:44:30 * Warrigal decides to ignore this channel for a while 02:44:33 * oklodol decides to get bored 02:44:41 hmm 02:44:46 i mean 02:45:01 a string is kind of just a graph that consists of only one chain 02:45:11 that's bad, ehird will so cling onto that. 02:45:16 abc is the graph ({a,b,c}, {(a,b),(b,c)}) 02:45:32 ehird: i did not get bored, i just meant i decide not to continue doing that. 02:45:33 obviously the string "aa" in a graph would need to be like 02:45:45 ({a1,a2},{(a1,a2)}) 02:45:48 ehird: sorry for confusing you, my life is still interesting 24/7. 02:46:52 yeah and you just hang things from the nodes of the path 02:46:54 to make characters 02:47:07 mm yeah that works even better 02:47:12 thus trivially encoding thue 02:47:15 you dont need to index your symbols 02:47:16 oh, you had another way? 02:47:27 i'm all queers 02:47:31 ... 02:47:34 whoops, must be the nick 02:47:40 I think the graph representing the string "aa" is best written like this: aa 02:47:55 warrigal, thats a bad representation of the string as a graph 02:48:10 I think you mean it's a bad representation of the graph as a string. 02:48:12 Warrigal: i read that as just one node eodermdrome 02:48:17 ... 02:48:18 lol 02:48:19 anyway 02:48:19 That has two nodes, labeled a and a, connected. 02:48:21 oklodol 02:48:26 instead of indexing the nodes like i suggested 02:48:33 *node as eodermdrome notation 02:48:49 you could just have a 1-to-1 correspondence between string-symbol and some graph-nodes 02:49:02 where the n's symbol corresponds to some node n 02:49:08 with the relevant connections 02:49:14 Here's a little star made of a's: aaa(aa)(aa)(aa)(aa)aa 02:49:21 Here's a little ring made of a's: a1aaaaa1 02:49:30 and just connect node i to the graph node that represents the symbol for string-symbol i 02:50:22 Warrigal: (aa) means a path that returns after )? 02:50:30 oklodol: yep. 02:50:35 -!- jayCampbell has joined. 02:50:49 esohi 02:51:01 Well, the last thing in the parentheses is not connected to the thing before the parentheses. 02:51:11 -!- GregorR has joined. 02:51:21 Warrigal: that's kinda like eodermdrome, except you have a prettier way to return from the depth-first descent 02:51:30 Warrigal: i know 02:51:34 This is inspired by SMILES. 02:51:56 oh. well i'm sure you could've invented it just as well. 02:52:05 I'm sure I could have. 02:52:30 This is an example of SMILES, I believe: CC(CC1=CC=CC=C1)NC 02:52:46 psygnisfive: sorry, i mentally ignored you for a moment, i tend to separate conversations like that 02:52:49 * oklodol reads 02:52:52 its ok :) 02:53:23 Looking at that, you can tell you have a couple of carbons, and then a branch with what appears to be an aromatic ring, and the other branch is nitrogen and then carbon. 02:53:59 The common name of that molecule is methamphetamine. 02:54:20 * Warrigal tries to come up with a SMILES for paracetamol 02:54:51 psygnisfive: so kinda like mine, except you have just one copy of each glyph-subgraph? 02:54:52 nevermind oklodol nevermind :p 02:54:52 :i 02:54:52 i do mind 02:54:53 hmm. can't be what you meant 02:54:54 or at least not with the kind of graph rewriting i'm thinking 02:54:54 you didn't really specify of course 02:55:01 im giving a formal mathematical definition to a mathematician friend 02:55:06 ill post it here if you want 02:55:11 psygnisfive: sure. 02:55:17 of course i'm only half-mathematician 02:56:12 Warrigal: i can't reverse-engineer ='s right now 02:56:13 ... 02:56:14 wait 02:56:18 i can with the explanation 02:56:50 this channel has certainly evolved 02:56:50 do *not* explain ='s. 02:56:54 pun only half intended 02:56:55 jayCampbell: from what to what 02:57:04 what pun 02:57:04 and also hi 02:57:13 i also mentally ignored you :) 02:57:24 and yeah, what pun? 02:57:25 CC(=O)NC1=CC=C(O)C=C1 02:57:42 "evolved", this looks like organic chemistry 02:57:49 oh okay. 02:57:55 kinda far-fetched 02:58:05 so. from what to what? 02:58:37 from brainfuck to brain stimulant production 02:58:40 i thought it is, and always has been, a bag of random. 02:59:03 jayCampbell: we produce less than you could ever imagine 02:59:14 such small amounts it's mindblowing 03:01:33 ok oklodol 03:01:44 you want my little proof that graph rewriting is TC? :) 03:02:03 My little proof that graph rewriting is TC is "Thue". 03:02:08 its beautifully trivial :D 03:02:15 well sure, if it's just you pasting a link 03:02:15 Yours is probably more interesting. 03:02:29 well, ill write it up and give you the link then 03:03:01 psygnisfive: you can write it here as well 03:03:18 well, i'd rather have it all together, not spread out between other convos anyway 03:03:18 so 03:03:27 understandable 03:23:24 -!- Dewi has joined. 03:26:17 hy 03:32:40 i think i should try sleeping again 03:32:43 cya -> 03:37:24 oklopol 03:37:29 oklodol 03:37:39 ...well yes? 03:37:40 http://www.wellnowwhat.net/graph_rewriting_tc_proof.html 03:37:41 done? 03:38:07 i'll just read the beginning, then go to sleep. 03:38:28 theres not much to it other that showing that strings can be mapped to graphs 03:38:58 once youve done that, its trivial to replace rules that use strings with rules that use graphs 03:42:35 obviously to be more complete we'd want some rule for deriving new node sets at each step but thats trivial and boring 03:42:46 -!- jayCampbell has left (?). 03:43:24 well i have no idea how to do the mapping to graph rewriting rules 03:43:32 but, i don't know what rewriting you use 03:43:35 there is no real mapping 03:43:47 the mapping is just replacing the rules s -> s' 03:43:53 with rules G_s -> G_s' 03:44:22 er 03:44:28 i'll just believe that works. 03:44:31 K_s -> K_s' 03:44:34 it does 03:44:39 because strings can become graphs 03:44:48 a substring is a subgraph 03:45:11 so any string that has the substring s can be made into a graph that has the subgraph K_s 03:45:43 yeah i'm almost there. 03:45:46 but seriously 03:45:47 sleep 03:45:50 night :) 03:45:54 almost 6 am 03:45:56 :< 03:46:05 tried sleeping at 0:00 03:46:07 slept till 2 03:46:12 asdfjksjdflkj 03:46:13 -> 03:57:04 so say i have the string abc, and the rewriting rule ab->cc, first of all i'd have the graph ({0,1,2,a,b,c}, {(a,b),(b,c),(0,a),(1,b),(2,c)}) to represent abc? 03:57:27 where 0 1 2 are the nodes that represent the string 03:57:34 and a b c represent the symbols 03:58:56 hahaha 03:58:56 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:59:01 yes :) 03:59:10 actually i modified it so that the graph's V has all the symbols in A 03:59:16 just to make it cleaner. 03:59:18 no waittt 03:59:23 but yes 03:59:26 if i have 0 1 2 be the actual characters 03:59:37 then (0,1) (1,2) and not (a,b) (b,c) 03:59:45 well yes 04:00:03 obviously you'd want to have symbols that aren't integers 04:00:22 so constraint it that all the symbols are of the form [s] 04:00:23 anyway, then the rewriting rule would be ({3, 4, a, b}, {(3,4), (3,a), (4,b)}) -> ({5, 6, c}, {(5,6), (5,c), (6,c)})? 04:00:24 or whatever you want. 04:00:42 er what? 04:01:24 :) 04:01:27 dunno. you show me 04:01:43 also, obviously this doesnt take into account the fact that i could be different when you look at the string being rewritten and the substring 04:01:45 ok so 04:01:53 if you have some rule ab -> cc 04:01:57 you have the graph rule 04:02:33 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:02:38 ({1, 2, a, b}, {(1, 2), (1, a), (2, b)}) -> ({1, 2, c}, {(1, 2), (1, c), (2, c)}) 04:02:42 I should do an esolang based on Active Worlds action lines 04:02:55 psygnisfive: hmm right. 04:03:32 but how does the graph rewriting work exactly? 04:03:38 what do you mean? 04:03:46 i mean obviously a, b and c are named nodes there 04:03:53 and 1, 2 aren't, they're variables 04:04:00 that can match any node 04:04:27 the node names are arbitrary. 04:04:41 just like i is arbitrary in a substring 04:04:52 i mean if not, then the first one could just as well be matching the string, not the string's two characters and the symbol nodes 04:04:54 the graphs there are subgraphs of some given graph in a derivation 04:05:19 if a and b aren't special then ({1, 2, a, b}, {(1, 2), (1, a), (2, b)}) will match any path of 4 nodes 04:05:21 just like the strings in the rule ab -> cc are substrings of a given string in a derivation 04:05:46 we could replace them with variables if you want, it doesn't matter. 04:05:54 hmm. 04:06:05 but... 04:06:06 the point is that strings can be mapped to graphs 04:06:32 i mean in the rule ({1, 2, a, b}, {(1, 2), (1, a), (2, b)}) -> ({1, 2, c}, {(1, 2), (1, c), (2, c)}), don't a, b and c necessarily have to refer to the same a, b and c as in the actual string 04:06:35 and any rule that rewrites some substring s1 .. sn as s1' ... sn' 04:06:46 can be rephrased to rewrite the equivalent subgraph 04:06:58 oklodol: what? 04:07:12 what what? 04:07:21 what do you mean the same a, b, and c as in the actual string? 04:07:32 in the graph construction of abc 04:07:45 what does that even mean tho? 04:07:55 that you're not just matching any path of 4 nodes. 04:08:16 that graph, firstly, is not a path of 4 nodes. 04:08:24 it's not? 04:08:27 its at most a graph of three nodes, but thats semi irrelevant 04:08:31 no, its a directed graph 04:08:36 oh. 04:08:50 that chages things. 04:08:53 :P 04:08:56 *changes 04:08:56 dumbass 04:09:08 yes, and still i'm not satisfied 04:09:09 i mean 04:09:16 still, the same question 04:09:25 and i too still give you the same question 04:09:28 what does that even mean 04:09:30 are a, b and c variables there, or can they just refer to any node in the original string 04:09:33 's graph 04:09:37 oklodol 04:09:41 a, b, and c are symbols. 04:09:45 in the alphabet. 04:09:50 think of it like this 04:09:57 and the graph knows that? 04:10:11 the graph doesnt have to 04:10:49 because no rule will ever rewrite an alphabet node. 04:11:08 it only rewrites the string symbol nodes. 04:11:23 just think of it like this oklopol 04:11:32 your have one node for every symbol in the alphabet 04:11:43 collect all of these nodes at the bottom of your visual picture of the graph 04:11:54 above these you have a chain of nodes 1->2->...->n 04:12:06 for each symbol in a string 04:12:32 and each has a link to its symbol 04:12:34 and from each of these nodes you have an edge pointing to the alphabet symbol node 04:12:48 i know, i read your thing. 04:12:51 ok 04:12:55 so then why is this confusing? 04:12:57 it's the rewriting i don't understand 04:13:00 well. 04:13:16 kinda hard to explain it :) 04:13:26 wish i could just draw it on paper. 04:13:29 thats probably because you dont know what you mean :) 04:13:33 ok go and draw it 04:13:37 i know exactly what i mean 04:13:41 use an online whiteboard if you want 04:14:01 ill gladly watch and tell you you're wrong :p 04:14:07 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:14:08 that in the rewrite rule, you have to match any two nodes that are connected to each other, and two two certain symbol nodes 04:14:14 WTF XCHAT 04:14:16 WTF 04:14:29 so these symbol nodes need to be named in the rule, they can't just be variables that match any nodes 04:14:41 oklopol: what? 04:14:44 because otherwise any two adjacent characters would match any rule of length 2 04:14:52 except oklopol 04:14:55 in the graphs 04:15:04 a and b and so on are not variables 04:15:14 they're symbols in the alphabet 04:15:40 ...so 1, 2... are variables in the rewriting system, and a, b... are constants? 04:16:08 i don't care what their semantics are 04:16:08 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:16:08 a and b are the symbols in the alphabet 04:16:13 i mean 04:16:16 there's no alphabet 04:16:21 Ok, here's my translation of AW into an esolang. I don't have any syntax, because I don't want to steal Active Worlds syntax 04:16:24 i'm asking how the graph rewriting works 04:16:25 there IS an alphabet, oklodol 04:16:31 Objects can have names. Names aren't unique 04:16:38 what are the exact semantics of the graph rewriting 04:16:47 do those consider a and b different from 1 and 2 in the rules 04:16:52 As an action, an object can set a timer on itself or on objects with a certain name 04:17:10 1 and 2 are just the names for the nodes in the subgraph. 04:17:21 These timers are the only real way for objects to communicate, other than setting text on them which can serve as output, but cannot be read by objects 04:17:27 just like s_1 and s_2 are the names for the symbols in a substring 04:17:38 psygnisfive: just give me the exact graph rewriting semantics, that's the only way 04:17:45 i did! 04:17:50 oh. 04:17:53 why do you have such a hard time understanding this? 04:18:08 i always do. 04:18:13 When the timer goes off on an object, it might take an action, such as changing its name or setting a timer 04:18:38 psygnisfive: i mean 04:18:47 i don't see why a and b in the rewriting rules 04:18:48 Actions might also be triggered by a click, or when the object is created 04:18:52 What can be done with this? 04:18:53 would only match the nodes a and b 04:18:56 Is it turing complete? 04:19:01 but the nodes 1 and 2 in the rewriting rules 04:19:03 match any two nodes 04:19:07 oklodol 04:19:08 what? 04:19:15 a and b are nodes. 04:19:22 I guess no one's noticing me 04:19:34 if nothing matches any two nodes, and not just some named nodes, the amount of nodes will never increase) 04:19:39 *(if 04:19:39 1 and 2 are also nodes, but they're variables not actual nodes 04:19:44 err. 04:19:55 so 1 and 2 are different from a and b, in the rewriting rules? 04:20:17 in the same way that s_1 and s_2 are different from a and b in string rewriting rules 04:20:21 the real question: are you leaving some semantics of string rewriting in the graph rewriting stage? 04:20:32 psygnisfive: okay. that's what i asked in the first place 04:20:40 oklodol, there is nothing confusing about this 04:20:43 just shut up and calculate. 04:20:45 stop thinking. 04:20:45 06:03… oklodol: i mean obviously a, b and c are named nodes there 04:20:45 06:03… oklodol: and 1, 2 aren't, they're variables 04:20:46 theres no thinking. 04:20:57 I SAID THEY WERE VARIABLES AGES AGO 04:20:59 you didn't say the rewriting system allows that 04:21:12 it allows it in the same way that it allows it in string rewriting 04:21:26 yeah, but you don't need that for getting it tc 04:21:30 so i didn't just assume it. 04:21:38 i asked, you didn't answer 04:21:41 you sort of do oklopol 04:21:43 when you write a rule like 04:21:45 ab -> cc 04:21:55 what you're saying is not just ab -> cc 04:22:00 what you're saying is really 04:22:22 a substring s_1 s_2, where s_1 is an instance of a, and s_2 is an instance of b 04:22:29 so, where did you clearly say a and b are symbols *in the graph rewriting language*? 04:22:33 can be replaced with the substrinct s_1 s_2 where s_1 and s_2 are both instances of c 04:23:11 because i thought you were talking about them being symbols in the string rewriting language 04:23:20 with strings this doesnt have to be as explicitly stated because a symbol can occur multiple times in a string in any order you want 04:23:40 so its like a tuple, or more accurately, a set {(symbol, index), ...} 04:24:00 Sgeo: say it again so that I can pay attention to you this time. 04:24:01 psygnisfive: yes, i understand all this perfectly. 04:24:07 oklodol, the graph language and the string language are identical in some regard. 04:24:16 ok so oklopol 04:24:20 if you accept that a string can be 04:24:25 psygnisfive: saying that would've made this clear 04:24:28 {(1, a), (2, b), ...} 04:24:41 * Warrigal reads what Sgeo's already said instead of waiting for him to say it again 04:24:48 notice that this is EXACTLY a subset of the edge set for the equivalent graph 04:25:41 So objects can have names, names aren't unique, an object can set a timer on itself or on objects with a certain name, these timers are the only way for objects to communicate, and when the timer goes off on an object, it might take an action. 04:25:49 Precisely what Sgeo said, of course. 04:25:58 oklodol: saying so would've restated what should've been obvious :P 04:26:23 Hmm... 04:26:34 Objects can also take actions if clicked 04:26:37 I can see implementing a Minsky machine with that. 04:26:42 Minsky? 04:26:50 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p665516556.txt 04:26:53 The number of objects named A is the value in register A, etc. 04:27:03 Can't count number of objects named A 04:27:14 You don't need to be able to count. 04:27:23 What you do need to be able to do, however, is decrement... 04:27:36 Hm 04:27:39 "that's ok, I was assuming you had a brain" 04:27:45 So no, that doesn't work. 04:27:51 psygnisfive: you don't have to explain anymore, i just didn't know you could have both named nodes and variable nodes, because you didn't show that in the rewrite rules in any way 04:28:00 oklopol 04:28:07 You can have individual objects name themselves to something else 04:28:10 -!- Corun has joined. 04:28:13 you have named symbols and variable symbols in string rewriting. 04:28:14 But it would be a fixed number that could do that 04:28:39 I suppose I should describe the actual action line of AW, that might clarify things? 04:28:45 i mean, look oklopol 04:28:49 In an action line, there are triggers for commands 04:28:49 If you have a bunch of identical objects, can they possibly be distinguished, ever? 04:29:03 Can you make an arbitrary number of non-identical objects? 04:29:08 if you accept that the string "xabx" is really something like {(1, x), (2, a), (3, b), (4, x)} 04:29:11 If the answer to both of those is no, it's probably not Turing-complete. 04:29:20 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:29:25 Technically, in AW, not an arbitrary number, due to space limitations, but let's ignore that 04:29:27 then the rewrite rule ab -> cc would be really 04:29:40 {(1, a), (2, b)} -> {(1, c), (2, c)} 04:29:48 identical objects can technically be distinguished, if the viewer can't see some of them 04:30:04 Then they're not very identical, are they. 04:30:09 psygnisfive: yes, so? 04:30:10 but {(1, a), (2, b)} is not a subset of {(1, x), (2, a), (3, b), (4, x)} 04:30:19 so how can it match a substring of {(1, x), (2, a), (3, b), (4, x)}? 04:30:19 Let's ignore that too 04:30:25 May I describe the action line? 04:30:27 because 1 and 2 are variables 04:30:30 exactly 04:30:32 Ignore that method of distinguishing them? 04:30:33 ... 04:30:37 so you had variables in string rewriting already 04:30:37 triggers are create, activate, bump, and adone 04:30:44 commands are things like animate 04:30:51 You might have in an object 04:31:00 psygnisfive: and why the fuck would i assume you assume the semantics from string rewriting stay once you get into the graph rewriting? 04:31:02 you just dont SHOW it because its obvious what you mean 04:31:08 create name a, animate me . 1 1 0; adone visible no 04:31:21 If you can't have an infinite number of non-identical objects, the only way to store infinite data is in the number of each type of object. 04:31:25 psygnisfive: no it's not. 04:31:27 nothing is obvious. 04:31:39 That creates a name a, and sets a timer on itself for 0 seconds. When the timer goes off (adone), it goes invisible 04:31:56 me can be changed to something else to trigger adone on a different object 04:31:56 well you would assume that, oklodol, because we're mapping strings to graphs 04:31:58 Make any sense? 04:32:03 if you write something formal, i will read it formally, you didn't distinguish between the nodes of the rewriting rules, why would i. 04:32:10 and matching subgraphs, just like matching substrings, HAS FUCKING VARIABLES 04:32:14 it always has 04:32:22 psygnisfive: yes, but it doesn't need to have constants 04:32:32 and when i tried to ask if maybe you have those 04:32:34 it has constants only as much as strings have constants. 04:32:35 * Warrigal nods 04:32:40 you just started spouting trivialities 04:32:43 then insulting me 04:33:26 if i spout trivialities its because the answers to your questions are trivial. 04:33:36 yeah fuck you too 04:33:42 sleepy time, i got my answer -> 04:33:47 An arbitrary number of non-identical objects can be made, but not dynamically 04:33:59 hey, you're the one who didnt realize i said it has variables even immediately after i fucking said it has variables 04:34:05 i cant help it if you're not reading my answers. 04:34:22 so dont give me this shit about how im being an asshole. 04:34:48 i mean, we're talking about graph rewriting, oklopol 04:34:58 ofcourse it has pattern matching with variables 04:35:03 why? because its graph rewriting! 04:35:08 any rewriting system has this 04:41:04 there i've changed it for you oklopol 04:42:02 yeah like i could sleep 04:42:04 :P 04:42:23 fucking log link 04:42:32 ? 04:42:34 like i'm not pissed off enough 04:42:49 Warrigal, so, this means no turing completeness? 04:42:55 breathe, oklodol. this is nothing to be pissed off about 04:43:05 Sgeo: sounds likely. 04:43:14 What can be done? 04:43:20 BRB 04:43:21 -!- oklodol has set topic: logs >>> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ <<< seriously, i want them here.. 04:44:46 oklodol 04:44:53 does the new version satisfy you? 04:46:04 psygnisfive: what new version? 04:46:08 i told you 04:46:13 i rewrote the proof for you. 04:46:23 and yes, it's definitely something to be pissed about 04:46:30 no, its really not 04:46:34 you were quite directly calling me an idiot 04:47:02 because you were being one. 04:47:07 after fucking writing a formal reduction, and then assuming "obvious" things. 04:47:15 psygnisfive: relink 04:47:23 wait no need 04:47:29 Warrigal, I think I have a way to decrement 04:47:38 i assumed nothing more than what was already assumed by the fact that were talking about graph rewriting 04:47:48 which already assumes pattern matching 04:47:56 Have a bunch of objects, one named d0, one named d1, one named d2 04:48:11 Each one can... hm, n/m 04:48:57 Actually 04:49:42 psygnisfive: yes, but it doesn't necessarily need anything but variables. which is why i asked whether there were constants. you didn't answer, so really, maybe i was ignorant of how graph rewriting works outside the eso community, but i definitely wasn't an idiot. 04:49:49 because of that. 04:49:58 ofcourse it requires constants, oklodol 04:50:02 no it doesn't 04:50:16 well, graph rewriting in general doesnt, no. 04:50:34 but thats really irrelevant. 04:51:30 yes, the only thing that's relevant is i can't sleep because i'm so fucking pissed :D 04:51:50 masturbate to thoughts of hurting me. 04:51:53 Each object can have a certain set of actions happen when the timer goes off, but only one set of actions can be specified 04:51:54 and really, it doesn't matter how many times you tell me i really was an idiot 04:52:03 i do not agree 04:52:06 and i just get more pissed 04:52:15 you're an idiot 04:52:15 you're an idiot 04:52:16 you're an idiot 04:52:18 you're an idiot 04:52:20 you're an idiot 04:52:30 now go jerk off to fantasies of smacking me. 04:52:33 we'll both me pleased. 04:52:38 be* 04:53:00 I mean, even with the same name, different objects can have different actions 04:53:08 But that doesn't really help, does it Warrigal? 04:53:08 glah. i need to see a shrink 04:53:12 no 04:53:17 you need to jerk off to fantasies of abusing me. 04:53:50 i can't. because i can't do anything. because i'm so fucking pissed. 04:53:56 :D 04:54:09 irc is fun 04:54:27 irc irks? 04:54:43 vox vexes? 04:55:30 well, you irk, irc just makes it harder to do anything about it. 04:55:46 i speak nothing but the truth! 04:56:06 if it irks you, then the truth irks you, not me! 04:56:57 no. 04:57:02 :3 04:57:18 you're an idiot and i'm ignoring you for... 5 minutes. 04:57:25 lol 04:57:34 OOOOH YOU MAKE ME SO PISSED 04:57:34 Warrigal, awake? 04:57:35 :P 04:57:37 can't do longer than that before i'll read logs anyway. 04:57:49 Sgeo: so. i think i could try to read your thing now :P 04:57:52 -!- Corun has left (?). 04:58:01 Sgeo: I think so. 04:58:10 can result in long mental ignores when i lose my calm. 04:59:15 If you want the most accurate description, try http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=Object_Scripting 04:59:20 I want to make an esolang out of it 05:03:15 http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=Animate is the timer and inter-object interaction I was referring to 05:05:11 maybe i should just give up and start reading my book or something 05:05:25 i mean i could sleep only for like 4 hours anyway 05:10:37 Sgeo: so what would the primitives+semantics be then? 05:10:58 primitives would be objects 05:11:19 Semantics would be AWish 05:11:46 Well, the sign command would display output 05:12:21 oklopol: read The Spartans 05:12:25 or Guns, Germs, and Steel 05:12:27 or Collapse 05:12:36 Just don't want to copy AW syntax, since I'd like something workable by sane people 05:13:27 how's that a way to make an esolang, making things saner? 05:15:03 I mean, unless you want code like 05:15:15 create animate me . 1 1 0, astart 05:15:18 05:15:22 some more stuff 05:15:45 In an esolang, it should not be animate me 05:15:48 probably 05:17:58 And the esolang should be easier to write in than AW 05:21:08 Bye all 05:21:09 well i didn't really read that link, so i'm not sure what animate me is. 05:21:12 oh 05:21:13 well bye 05:21:26 oklodol, animate me sets the timer on the object 05:21:39 animate a would set a timer on all objects named "a" 05:21:48 What happens after is specified by the receiving object's adone 05:22:00 rught 05:22:02 *right 05:22:08 Thing is, the syntax of AW's animate is ugly 05:22:14 and that callback is what, like a function? 05:22:21 It's a trigger 05:22:34 what's a trigger 05:22:53 create, activate, bump, and adone are triggers. you might have create sign hi 05:22:55 For example 05:23:09 which means as soon as the object comes into view, it's a sign with the text "hi" 05:23:24 adone is a trigger like create, but it comes into play when the timer goes off 05:23:48 Thing is, the animate syntax has stuff that's not relevent to an esolang 05:23:55 animate me 1 1 1000 05:24:04 The 1 and 1 refer to frame stuff 05:24:17 1000 is the time in miliseconds 05:25:40 delays would make a cool way to do control flow 05:26:28 The delay can be 0 05:26:51 and animate is the only meaningful way for objects to interact with eachother 05:27:04 I mean, objects can make other objects signs, but for our purposes that's not interaction 05:28:11 psygnisfive: i don't read fiction 05:28:22 ey? 05:28:25 they're not fiction 05:28:38 The Spartans is a history of Sparta 05:28:38 oh. assumed they were 05:28:42 ah 05:28:56 well history not so much. 05:29:13 Guns, Germs, and Steel is a book about large-scale historical trends, namely why European nations went on to conquer the world and become enormously powerful and wealthy but noone else did 05:29:20 i consider it fiction that is considered to actually have happened, which is worse than just fiction 05:29:27 and Collapse is about why some societies face severe decline while others dont 05:29:36 faced*/didn't* 05:29:38 because the reality isn't that interesting 05:29:41 hmm 05:29:58 well. collapse might work. 05:30:05 GGS is good too 05:30:08 i'm all for stuff that's abstract 05:30:15 you can actually watch a show version of it 05:30:17 having to do with europe is a big minus 05:30:28 well, its not so much having to do with europe 05:30:33 its more having to do with the WORLD 05:30:49 and the fact of the world is that european culture is so and so while others arent 05:30:59 well that's not really my thing, i prefer theoretical worlds 05:31:05 most of the thing is about OTHER societies and why they couldn't rise to be enormously powerful 05:31:10 but i might enjoy it, hard to say not having read it. 05:31:21 that's always a problem with everything 05:31:22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgnmT-Y_rGQ 05:31:22 g2g 05:31:25 part 1 of the video version 05:31:28 bye Sgeo 05:31:33 its only 3 hours long so 05:31:34 Bye 05:32:06 psygnisfive: well. k that does sound interesting. 05:32:41 it's just usually things other than math rarely say anything i don't consider trivial 05:32:55 :p 05:33:14 or the Collapse talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmZqW_xh_eA 05:34:13 i mean there are interesting things to be said about all subjects, and of course authors have something to say, otherwise they wouldn't have written the book; it's just most of it is just build-up 05:34:17 you can't do that with math 05:34:32 oklodol, one thing im really interested in doing is like creating a mathematical history 05:34:33 like 05:34:37 if there's no content, the reader will actually notice 05:34:47 a model of historical change thats almost mathematical in nature 05:35:00 i think thats sort of Jared Diamonds idea 05:35:07 (hes the guy who wrote GGS and Collapse) 05:35:40 well i like (formalizing all things) equally 05:35:46 :) 05:35:50 wait. 05:35:51 i REALLY want to formalize memetics 05:36:02 that grouping might be a bit wrong there. 05:36:11 yes it is ;) 05:36:14 blah. i'm so fucking tired 05:36:24 * psygnisfive pets oklodol 05:36:57 could you explain what the difference between the two parsings is 05:37:10 i mean 05:37:16 sure 05:37:21 god i'm in such a coma. 05:37:24 the difference is that yours is unparsable :) 05:37:44 for all things, the amount of how much i like to formalize them is the same 05:37:51 :p 05:37:53 and not that i like (formalizing things equally) 05:38:05 lol 05:38:24 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 05:38:34 just thought that might require clearing up, ended up sticking parens in random places and confusing the whole world. 05:39:13 but, anyway 05:39:34 i'm not actually going to read those books, even though i don't have anything against reading the latter two in principle 05:40:00 there's enough stuff to read about the things i actually care about 05:42:29 also i'm much less pissed. which is good. i should stop ircing, it's dangerous. 05:43:36 also i should get something to drink, and start reading 05:43:48 this has been a pretty pointless night : D 05:43:49 -> 05:58:06 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:58:47 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:09:42 -!- kar8nga has joined. 08:30:38 -!- Mony has joined. 08:33:22 hi 08:34:19 as i said, the relevant relations in modern binding theory in minimalism atleast are coreference and c-command 08:34:23 whoops 08:34:24 D: 08:55:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:56:37 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 08:56:52 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 08:57:19 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:45:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:58:17 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:58:26 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:57:23 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:23:00 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 12:35:03 o 12:37:59 -!- rodgort has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:02:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:26:08 -!- LinuS has joined. 13:32:16 -!- ehird has left (?). 13:32:24 -!- ehird has joined. 13:32:26 -!- ehird has left (?). 13:32:30 -!- ehird has joined. 13:32:32 -!- ehird has left (?). 13:32:36 -!- ehird has joined. 13:32:38 -!- ehird has left (?). 13:32:42 -!- ehird has joined. 13:34:28 -!- rodgort has joined. 13:51:07 -!- flexo has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 14:03:31 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++[-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+. 14:03:31 ab 14:03:48 yessssssssssssssss, it worked 14:20:08 why the loop? 14:20:18 puzzlet: to delay it while I disconnected/reconnecte 14:20:19 d 14:20:28 I found a bug in my IRC client's bouncer quicklog processing code. 14:20:35 ^ jargon for the sake of it 14:20:39 So I had to disconnect before it replied. 14:20:51 k 14:37:34 fungot: int main(void) 14:37:35 KingOfKarlsruhe: and granted p5 isn't as elegant as haskell or ocaml's versions.) both can accept optional trailing step arguments through ( by step). 14:38:00 fungot: show tables; 14:38:01 KingOfKarlsruhe: for some x y. you cannot modify a variable i starting at 0 ( and both variables hold the same value); ( :range variable (index index-variable)), which is implemented 14:38:10 ^style 14:38:11 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 14:38:16 ^style darwin 14:38:16 Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy) 14:38:23 fungot: 14:38:23 ehird: my dear lyell, yours gratefully, charles darwin. 14:40:18 ^style fisher 14:40:19 Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations) 14:40:22 ah. 14:40:26 fungot: *BEEP* 14:40:26 ehird: ( ( i don't noise lately noise i haven't 14:40:36 ^style ss 14:40:36 Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings) 14:40:38 ^style pa 14:40:38 Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics) 14:40:46 (sorry, fungot, but your style names are confusing) 14:40:46 ehird: what are dante's guns called again? 14:40:51 fungot: x 14:40:52 ehird: that depends. how much do you have any big plans for sunday? someone else go. doom 3 comes out tomorrow. 14:41:01 I think it's basically going verbatim here. 15:23:11 -!- moozilla has joined. 15:26:53 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:28:33 -!- rinsmaster has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:36:39 -!- moozilla has joined. 15:39:20 -!- moozilla has quit (Connection reset by peer). 15:42:48 -!- oklodol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:54:02 -!- flexo has joined. 16:00:05 -!- Mony has quit ("reboot XChat"). 16:00:23 -!- Mony has joined. 16:19:17 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 16:23:23 -!- moozilla has joined. 16:27:18 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)). 16:38:36 wow this code would make AnMaster squirm 16:38:45 oh? 16:38:48 what code 16:39:38 AnMaster: Here's the first part of it. 16:39:38 #define pp(x,t) (fpp(stdout, t, x)) 16:39:39 #define fpp(s,t,x) (_fpp((s), ((void *)(x)), (#t), (#x))) 16:39:41 void _fpp(FILE *, void *, char *, const char *); 16:39:49 ehird, where is it from? 16:39:56 Old code I wrote. 16:40:06 ehird, IOCCC? 16:40:12 well not that much 16:40:18 Nah, it actually does something useful. 16:40:23 ehird, oh? What? 16:40:24 I'll pastie the actual .c 16:40:29 nice 16:40:45 http://pastie.org/private/kkghpnoxj3g4sn6hgjotla That header part + this. It's a debug prettyprinter 16:40:47 Use like: 16:40:57 pp(thing, type) 16:41:00 e.g. pp(3, int) 16:41:04 pp("hello world", char *) 16:41:07 outputs, I think: 16:41:09 3 = 3 16:41:09 and 16:41:13 where are those defines you pasted? 16:41:14 in here 16:41:17 "hello world" = hello world 16:41:22 AnMaster: in the header file libstuff.h 16:41:25 ah 16:41:34 you can also do e.g. 16:41:35 pp(2+2, int) 16:41:37 and it'd output 16:41:41 2+2 = 4 16:42:00 ehird, to me it looks like you are basically re-implementing fprintf with an alternative syntax 16:42:03 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 16:42:08 AnMaster: no. 16:42:13 It prints out the expression. 16:42:17 hm 16:42:20 I didn't want the type argument at first 16:42:24 ah quite cool code 16:42:24 But I think typeof failed somehow 16:42:42 It was to feed my 'print debugging' habit. :P 16:42:53 hrrm if gcc you could get rid of the type argument by using typeof(), but it didn't work? 16:42:54 huh 16:43:05 I'll add in typeof and see what breaks 16:43:10 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:43:11 Assuming this code compiles. 16:43:13 also typeof() isn't a good thing in a portable project of course 16:43:20 but that may not be your goal 16:43:21 #ifndef __GNUC__ 16:43:21 # error libstuff is only tested with gcc, proceed at your own risk. 16:43:23 :P 16:43:33 ehird, heh, what does this libstuff actually do? 16:43:42 It was just a random collection of shtuff. 16:43:50 ehird, oh and you know ICC and several other ones define __GNUC__ 16:43:53 Like #define streq(x,y) (strcmp((x), (y)) == 0) 16:43:56 AnMaster: that's their problem 16:44:08 ehird, hah it was me that said that some time ago to you 16:44:10 about clang 16:44:35 AnMaster: actually, I agree with myself there 16:44:46 it's needed, practically, but it's their problem if something breaks 16:44:59 % ./example 16:45:00 zsh: bus error ./example 16:45:01 huh. 16:45:06 ehird, also that streq, can't see how it differs from a plain if (!strcmp(x, y)) 16:45:15 AnMaster: it doesn't , it's just sugar 16:45:18 ah right 16:45:33 ehird, bus error? 16:45:33 wtf 16:45:36 AnMaster: segfault 16:45:40 ah 16:45:45 err not exactly 16:45:48 ALTERNATIVELY: the programmer was run over by a bus 16:45:51 SIGBUS != SIGSEGV 16:46:00 both exist and are separate 16:46:10 it's SIGSEGV, i think. 16:46:10 though SIGBUS is extremely rare on x86 16:46:16 Think it's a Darwin thing. 16:46:19 ah 16:46:20 or BSD 16:46:29 or zhs 16:46:30 *zsh 16:46:38 well I have seen SIGBUS on some non-x86 systems, think it was an ALPHA or MIPS or such 16:46:53 but never on x86 16:47:01 wonder why this is segfaulting 16:47:07 ehird, try gdb? 16:47:17 I think gcc expands typeof at cpp time, right? 16:47:25 -!- moozilla has joined. 16:47:37 ehird, err I think it ends up as __builtin_typeof, but I may be wrong 16:47:42 so probably at compiling stage 16:47:48 but not at runtime indeed 16:47:50 afaik 16:47:59 but I may be wrong 16:48:05 ((_fpp(((&__sF[1])), ((void *)( "hello world")), (# typeof(("hello world"))), (# "hello world")))); 16:48:09 XD 16:48:18 That's some ugly expansion. 16:48:22 agreed 16:48:32 and I don't even plan to try to make sense of it 16:48:32 also 16:48:57 typeof(("hello world")) <-- 1) no idea if the extra () affects it, probably not, 2) the type would be const * char I think 16:49:09 ah, probably the const tripped things up 16:49:41 Hm, some PHP I wrote semi-recently. Why did I do that? 16:50:10 ehird, that is why using -Wwrite-strings is a good idea, since all compiler and the C spec (even C89 iirc) say that using char * foo = "my string constant"; is deprecated 16:50:16 should be const char * foo 16:50:25 AnMaster: Yeah, but nobody really cares. 16:50:31 I sure don't. 16:50:47 ehird, well, you can run into issues with it, like if you try to modify that char* 16:50:55 Solution: don't do that. 16:51:12 ehird, I'm all for being able to find issues at compile time rather than runtime :) 16:51:24 C is not exactly the language for that. 16:51:30 true 16:51:41 you probably want ADA for it or some language like that 16:51:48 Or haskell. 16:52:08 indeed. Oh and I started a bit, but I had so much to do, but I'm in no hurry 16:53:00 ehird, anyway your debugging formatting code is an interesting idea 16:53:25 ooh, an unfinished interpreter. 16:53:33 * ehird is rummaging thru ~/Code 16:53:36 ehird, for what lang, in what lang? 16:53:44 heh I use ~/src 16:53:46 Own invention, in C. 16:54:09 wasn't a very good one though. 16:54:14 heh 16:54:19 esolang? 16:54:21 Specifically: it didn't work. 16:54:23 AnMaster: nah 16:54:33 ok, what type of lang then? 16:54:45 Kind of like Ruby, but smaller and more consistent. 16:55:03 a pitty it didn't work then 16:55:24 I should have specced it and let the HUGE OPEN SOURCE COMMUNITY write the implementation for me. 16:55:49 ehird, for that to work you need to make your 0.0.1 yourself first 16:56:03 $ cat main.c \n int main() { return 0; } 16:56:04 done 16:56:09 haha 16:56:25 Hm, a tcl-alike. 16:57:05 Agh, I really want to finish that sometime 16:57:12 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 16:57:13 (C program in, graph of function calls and other flow out.) 16:58:28 TCL-like!? 16:58:30 wtf 16:58:35 er 16:58:38 that was two seperate things 16:58:39 tcl is like php... 16:58:44 what 16:58:46 no it is not.. 16:58:52 ehird, as in "horrible" 16:58:53 IMO 16:59:02 AnMaster: maybe you haven't looked in to it 16:59:04 it's quite elegant. 16:59:16 see http://antirez.com/articoli/tclmisunderstood.html 16:59:20 ehird, oh yes I have, for eggdrop thing 16:59:29 eggdrop is horrible _in general_ 16:59:33 indeed 16:59:36 you can make any language awful 16:59:52 also interesting: http://antirez.com/page/picol.html tcl in 100 lines of c 17:00:25 see http://antirez.com/articoli/tclmisunderstood.html <-- times out 17:00:30 hmm ditto. 17:00:39 Solution: 17:00:43 both of them do 17:00:51 sec 17:01:03 http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fantirez.com%2Farticoli%2Ftclmisunderstood.html&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:hu:official&client=firefox-a 17:01:09 yeah 17:01:09 :P 17:01:45 http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:wCtmFEnuu0MJ:antirez.com/page/picol.html+http://antirez.com/page/picol.html&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1 ah, actually 550 lines 17:01:46 still impressive 17:01:50 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:02:19 ehird, bbl food is ready 17:10:20 ehird, hm about tcl, it has certain similarities to shell scripting, the "command space parameter space parameter..." bit for example, and yes there are more langs than shell and tcl that use that 17:10:33 however I don't think that looks good 17:10:45 it may be practical and work well, but it is ugly 17:10:47 * ehird facepalm. 17:10:52 It's not conceptually ugly. 17:10:57 The whole program is a single Tcl list. 17:11:05 ehird, well the beauty is in the eye of the beholder 17:11:09 and that sounds nice 17:12:59 also another thing I dislike about shell scripting, and php, and also tcl: using $ prefix for variables. Sure it makes it less ambiguous and probably easier to parse. But it makes the code look messy 17:13:23 -!- Judofyr has quit (Connection timed out). 17:13:24 tcl doesn't look messy. Also, $a just parses to [set a]. 17:13:29 Which you could use if you wanted. 17:21:13 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Connection timed out). 17:23:13 ehird, after reading that article: Yes TCL has certain nice points, but 1) it seems to be unable to do syntax checking in advance, due to the "proc unknown" thing 2) I *do* think it looks a bit messy, but of course that is subjective 3) due to the negative attitude attached to it saying you use TCL would be _somewhat_ like saying "I code in COBOL", and it isn't very popular, smaller user base, less co 17:23:14 mmunity 17:23:34 1) That is irrelevant to syntax. 17:23:46 3) No, that's ridiculous, not everyone has stupid blanket opinions. additionally: 17:23:55 http://wiki.tcl.tk/ 17:23:59 there's your vibrant community 17:24:29 1) How do you mean? Doesn't proc unknown allow you to do much the same as non-clean lisp macros? 17:24:56 1. Not really. It's just called when a non-bound function is called. 17:25:17 hm ok 17:26:31 ehird, well in certain aspects tcl is like a lisp without parentheses(spelling?) and with a bit of syntax, 17:26:51 and then I would rather just use lisp 17:26:52 :) 17:27:02 It's imperative, not functional. 17:28:21 true, but in many other aspects it is close, such as everything being a list, powerful redefining of internal structures, like the example of proc repeat in that article 17:28:33 I can easily imagine that as a lisp macro 17:28:37 quite close 17:30:29 it also reminds me of bash in certain ways 17:30:32 set a pu 17:30:33 set b ts 17:30:33 $a$b "Hello World" 17:30:40 something very similar would work in bash 17:30:55 yes. 17:32:32 to me it seems like a mix of shell and lisp 17:33:10 that reminds me... I remember reading about a functional shell some time ago 17:33:15 * AnMaster looks around 17:33:59 nop can't find it 17:45:36 sigh, I so dislike when random newbies /msg random people 17:45:42 *especially* if that one is me 17:45:54 being msged that is of course 17:45:58 Who? 17:46:46 ehird, some newb in ##linux first asked if anyone was there (in an active channel with around 800 users, and several people had already spoken after he/she joined) 17:47:05 then he/she did some random /msg to some people in there, including me 17:47:13 Ooh, the original otpbot 17:47:19 ehird, hm? 17:47:23 Be prepared for a TOPIC CELLULAR AUTOMATA 17:47:27 -!- otpbot has joined. 17:47:28 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | __X_____X_X_XXX_XXXXXXXX__X__X__X__X__XX_X___X_____X______X_X_XXXX_XX___XXX__XXXX__X_X___X_XX____X__. 17:47:30 oh no 17:47:31 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | _XXX___XX_X_X___X_______XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX__XX_XXX___XXX____XX_X_X____X_X_XX__XXX___XXX_XX_XX_X_X__XXX_. 17:47:34 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | XX__X_XX__X_XX_XXX_____XX______________XXX__X__X_XX__X__XX__X_XX__XX_X_X_XXX__X_XX___X__X__X_XXXX__X. 17:47:37 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | __XXX_X_XXX_X__X__X___XX_X____________XX__XXXXXX_X_XXXXXX_XXX_X_XXX__X_X_X__XXX_X_X_XXXXXXXX_X___XXX. 17:47:40 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | XXX___X_X___XXXXXXXX_XX__XX__________XX_XXX______X_X______X___X_X__XXX_X_XXXX___X_X_X________XX_XX__. 17:47:42 ehird, what one is it? 17:47:43 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | X__X_XX_XX_XX________X_XXX_X________XX__X__X____XX_XX____XXX_XX_XXXX___X_X___X_XX_X_XX______XX__X_XX. 17:47:46 AnMaster: not sure. 17:47:46 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | _XXX_X__X__X_X______XX_X___XX______XX_XXXXXXX__XX__X_X__XX___X__X___X_XX_XX_XX_X__X_X_X____XX_XXX_X_. 17:47:49 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | XX___XXXXXXX_XX____XX__XX_XX_X____XX__X______XXX_XXX_XXXX_X_XXXXXX_XX_X__X__X__XXXX_X_XX__XX__X___XX. 17:47:50 the tc one I think. 17:47:52 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | __X_XX_______X_X__XX_XXX__X__XX__XX_XXXX____XX___X___X____X_X______X__XXXXXXXXXX____X_X_XXX_XXXX_XX_. 17:47:55 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | _XX_X_X_____XX_XXXX__X__XXXXXX_XXX__X___X__XX_X_XXX_XXX__XX_XX____XXXXX_________X__XX_X_X___X____X_X. 17:47:57 best viewed with a wide client :P 17:47:58 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | _X__X_XX___XX__X___XXXXXX______X__XXXX_XXXXX__X_X___X__XXX__X_X__XX____X_______XXXXX__X_XX_XXX__XX_X. 17:48:01 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | _XXXX_X_X_XX_XXXX_XX_____X____XXXXX____X____XXX_XX_XXXXX__XXX_XXXX_X__XXX_____XX____XXX_X__X__XXX__X. 17:48:04 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | _X____X_X_X__X____X_X___XXX__XX____X__XXX__XX___X__X____XXX___X____XXXX__X___XX_X__XX___XXXXXXX__XXX. 17:48:07 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | _XX__XX_X_XXXXX__XX_XX_XX__XXX_X__XXXXX__XXX_X_XXXXXX__XX__X_XXX__XX___XXXX_XX__XXXX_X_XX______XXX__. 17:48:10 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | XX_XXX__X_X____XXX__X__X_XXX___XXXX____XXX___X_X_____XXX_XXX_X__XXX_X_XX____X_XXX____X_X_X____XX__X_. 17:48:11 pretttttttyyyyyyyyyyyy 17:48:13 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | X__X__XXX_XX__XX__XXXXXX_X__X_XX___X__XX__X_XX_XX___XX___X___XXXX___X_X_X__XX_X__X__XX_X_XX__XX_XXX_. 17:48:16 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | XXXXXXX___X_XXX_XXX______XXXX_X_X_XXXXX_XXX_X__X_X_XX_X_XXX_XX___X_XX_X_XXXX__XXXXXXX__X_X_XXX__X___. 17:48:19 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | X______X_XX_X___X__X____XX____X_X_X_____X___XXXX_X_X__X_X___X_X_XX_X__X_X___XXX______XXX_X_X__XXXX_X. 17:48:19 ehird, I it is multi-line here 17:48:20 and 17:48:22 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | _X____XX_X__XX_XXXXXX__XX_X__XX_X_XX___XXX_XX____X_XXXX_XX_XX_X_X__XXXX_XX_XX__X____XX___X_XXXX____X. 17:48:25 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | _XX__XX__XXXX__X_____XXX__XXXX__X_X_X_XX___X_X__XX_X____X__X__X_XXXX____X__X_XXXX__XX_X_XX_X___X__XX. 17:48:25 please turn if off soon 17:48:28 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | _X_XXX_XXX___XXXX___XX__XXX___XXX_X_X_X_X_XX_XXXX__XX__XXXXXXXX_X___X__XXXXX_X___XXX__X_X__XX_XXXXX_. 17:48:31 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | XX_X___X__X_XX___X_XX_XXX__X_XX___X_X_X_X_X__X___XXX_XXX________XX_XXXXX_____XX_XX__XXX_XXXX__X____X. 17:48:34 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ___XX_XXXXX_X_X_XX_X__X__XXX_X_X_XX_X_X_X_XXXXX_XX___X__X______XX__X____X___XX__X_XXX___X___XXXX__XX. 17:48:35 AnMaster: i'll turn it off when people start talking 17:48:36 :P 17:48:37 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | X_XX__X_____X_X_X__XXXXXXX___X_X_X__X_X_X_X_____X_X_XXXXXX____XX_XXXX__XXX_XX_XXX_X__X_XXX_XX___XXX_. 17:48:40 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | X_X_XXXX___XX_X_XXXX______X_XX_X_XXXX_X_X_XX___XX_X_X_____X__XX__X___XXX___X__X___XXXX_X___X_X_XX___. 17:48:40 well 17:48:42 I'm talking 17:48:43 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | X_X_X___X_XX__X_X___X____XX_X__X_X____X_X_X_X_XX__X_XX___XXXXX_XXXX_XX__X_XXXXXX_XX____XX_XX_X_X_X_X. 17:48:46 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | __X_XX_XX_X_XXX_XX_XXX__XX__XXXX_XX__XX_X_X_X_X_XXX_X_X_XX_____X____X_XXX_X______X_X__XX__X__X_X_X_X. 17:48:48 yeah but 17:48:48 I might be talking. 17:48:49 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | XXX_X__X__X_X___X__X__XXX_XXX____X_XXX__X_X_X_X_X___X_X_X_X___XXX__XX_X___XX____XX_XXXX_XXXXXX_X_X_X. 17:48:51 you don't count. :o 17:48:52 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ____XXXXXXX_XX_XXXXXXXX___X__X__XX_X__XXX_X_X_X_XX_XX_X_X_XX_XX__XXX__XX_XX_X__XX__X____X______X_X_X. 17:48:55 me2 17:48:55 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | X__XX_______X__X_______X_XXXXXXXX__XXXX___X_X_X_X__X__X_X_X__X_XXX__XXX__X__XXXX_XXXX__XXX____XX_X_X. 17:48:56 :o 17:48:58 -!- otpbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | _XXX_X_____XXXXXX_____XX_X_______XXX___X_XX_X_X_XXXXXXX_X_XXXX_X__XXX__XXXXXX____X___XXX__X__XX__X_X. 17:48:59 sigh 17:49:00 -!- otpbot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:49:03 you all suck ass. 17:49:07 no u 17:49:08 Badgers can't talk :( 17:49:15 Asztal_: prove it. 17:49:22 go up to one and ask it. 17:49:40 I will 17:49:43 if he decides to answer you, he might not want to 17:49:46 -!- Asztal_ has changed nick to Asztal. 17:50:00 yep, that was 110 17:50:03 as far as I know they are like to be quiet 17:50:12 http://pastie.org/349088.txt?key=j3sdlyntj4fyl1kmorbag 17:50:13 triangles 17:51:01 ehird, is 110 tc? 17:51:08 that one is 17:51:30 hm? 17:52:03 ehird, what was the previous topic? 17:52:08 wat 17:52:15 before it changed topic 17:52:18 what was the topic then 17:52:23 who cares 17:52:28 the current topic has the logs and Xs and _s 17:52:31 what more do you want 17:52:43 ehird, well tomorrow I'll want "happy new year" 17:52:45 or something like that 17:52:54 you mean in two days. 17:53:09 ehird, hm? 17:53:15 it is 31 tomorrow 17:53:17 yes. 17:53:21 new years is 1 jan. 17:53:25 so two days. 17:53:48 ehird, well no, because I think we should go on the Australia timezone 17:53:54 which will be way earlier than here 17:53:57 #EINA 17:54:01 EINA? 17:54:15 #esoteric Is Not Agora 17:54:27 ehird, err you didn't act like that yesterday 17:54:33 also, what has agora got to do with it? 17:54:43 Agora celebrates its birthday in the australian timezone. 17:54:49 Also, #esoteric is esotermic. 17:55:09 ok, so what about NZ? 17:55:23 What about nz? 17:55:29 because we shouldn't be UK centric, that makes no sense 17:55:42 AnMaster: UTC centric makes sense. 17:56:19 ehird, for new year it makes sense to celebrate it at the point where it first happens, which isn't even NZ iirc but another hour or so before that 17:56:28 * AnMaster looks on a map 17:56:36 No, it makes sense to celebrate it when it happens where you are. 17:56:45 true 17:56:54 Also, that's gregorian-centric. 17:56:55 but the channel isn't in any specific place 17:57:03 Exactly, so we default to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_Universal_Time 17:57:15 Just like we default to English. 17:57:52 ehird, idea: Use same timezone as that of the first freenode server to enter the new year 17:58:00 lame idea. :P 17:58:05 I think there is one in Australia 18:11:50 awk: syntax error at source line 1 source file quine.awk 18:11:50 context is 18:11:52 >>> awk: <<< 18:11:54 awk: bailing out at source line 5 18:33:27 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 18:37:26 WTFCODE 18:37:44 http://pastie.org/private/kihnzfgeiwl79gzu0faa 18:58:03 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:58:28 -!- moozilla has joined. 19:00:54 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:00:58 -!- moozilla has joined. 19:10:23 08:47:48 fizzie: no, tail reads all the input into a red-black tree ndexed by line number, then when it hits EOF it repeatedly gets the lowest key, 19:10:23 checks whether it's in the requested range to be printed, and prints it if so 19:17:14 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:20:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:30:47 the tc one I think. 19:31:01 nope, that is rule 30, which is not known to be tc 19:31:05 hm ok 19:31:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:31:14 (or so i think from the logs, it's definitely not 110) 19:31:36 it has triangles 19:31:44 it might be, but it's reversible so trying random fields gives you no hints of gliders like 110 does 19:32:01 mm 19:32:03 because reversible means random -> random, really 19:32:41 and also you would have to implement one of the reversible tc versions i guess 19:34:15 rule 110 triangles are not symmetric, but right-angled 19:42:19 what we need is a list of countries by timezone, then each hour we select one randomly in the timezone currently entering new year and put it in the topic. 19:42:33 lol 19:42:42 so HAPPY NEW YEAR TONGA etc. 19:42:50 (not sure if that's the first one or last one) 19:45:03 ^ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()!()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^()!(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^()S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))()!~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 19:45:04 ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^:^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^:^^^^^:^^^:^^^:^^^^^::^^^^^:^::::^^^^^:::^^^^^::::^^:^^^:^^^:::^:^^:::^^^:::^^:::^::^^:::^::::^^^^:^^^:^::^^^^^::^^:^::^^^::^^:^^^::^^:::^:::^^^:^^^:^^:::^:^^^^^:^^:^:^^^^^:^:^^^::^^::^^:^^^:^^^^::^ ...too much output! 19:45:14 oops 19:45:34 ^ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()!()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^()!(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))()!~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 19:45:35 ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ :^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^ ^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^:^^^^^ :^^^:^^^:^^^^^::^^^^^:^::::^^^^^:::^^^^^:::: ^^:^^^:^^^:::^:^^:::^^^:::^^:::^::^^:::^:::: ^^^^:^^^:^::^^^^^::^^:^::^^^::^^:^^^::^^:::^ :::^^^:^^^:^^:::^:^^^^^:^^:^:^^^^^:^:^^^::^^ ::^^:^^^: ...too much output! 19:45:49 that's 110 19:50:03 ^help 19:50:03 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 20:13:00 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 20:30:31 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 20:35:16 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:37:43 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:49:08 -!- atrapado has joined. 20:50:05 fizzie, there? Any progress on jitfunge? 20:54:34 it won't progress until the very last minute. that much should be obvious. 21:15:11 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:17:40 -!- Corun has joined. 21:17:44 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:17:45 -!- sebbu has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:17:55 -!- Corun has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:22:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:37:28 ok 21:37:28 oklo 21:37:28 oplo 21:37:28 ... 21:37:28 where is he 21:37:28 oh dear 22:02:48 07:42:48 --- quit: oklodol (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:02:48 what's that in utc 22:02:48 argh 22:02:48 why the heck don't the logs use utc 22:04:49 cause they're shit 22:04:49 also, clog just stopped logging it seems 22:04:49 ok tunes 12:54 = my 21:54 = utc 20:54 22:04:49 so add 8 22:04:49 so, around 16:00 22:04:49 also, no logging because: 22:04:49 21:21 [Global Notice] Hi all, It would appear one of our US client servers have fallen off the edge of the discwo^H^H^H^H^H^Hinternet and all but vanished! We're looking into the issue now and hope to have it back soon. Affected users ~3K. Apologies for the inconvenience and thank you for flying freenode! 22:04:49 with the exception that clog is actually still in the channel 22:04:49 i think that's an oddity of the problem 22:04:49 but if clog is down, sweet, now I can take over the lucrative #esoteric logging market 22:04:49 you should be able to make thousands of esodollars in profit 22:04:49 yes 22:04:49 woah, I have so much stuff in ~ that software trying to traverse it all crashes 22:04:49 hm interesting mediawiki hack: http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Template:2008/Donate-header (see http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Template:2008/Donate-header&action=edit for the source) 22:04:49 didn't know you could do that kind of stuff with mediawiki 22:04:49 AnMaster: i'd really fucking prefer they didn't 22:04:49 god those ads on wikipedia are so annoying 22:04:49 ehird, yes I agree 22:04:49 especially when it randomly switches to RED BORDER MODE 22:04:49 ehird, but that was not ads, but fund raising pages 22:04:49 yes 22:04:49 ehird, red border mode? 22:04:49 I don't see any red borders 22:04:49 AnMaster: they randomly switch between them 22:04:49 they're trying to find out which is most-liked 22:04:49 the answer is none of them. 22:04:50 AnMaster: http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Template:2008/Donate-header/en&action=edit 22:04:50 calls to http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Template:2008/Donate-header&action=edit 22:04:50 in donate-header, "Tomas" is the magick. 22:04:50 and is a Mega-Unsafe option you can enable 22:04:50 for arbitrary html embedding 22:04:50 ehird, heh 22:04:50 ehird, that isn't enabled on normal wikipedia I bet 22:04:50 no duh 22:04:50 also, http://www.globalnerdy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/youre-trying-to-divide-by-zero.jpg 22:04:50 only on the "login really really required" wiki 22:04:50 AnMaster: "personal approval required for registration", too. 22:04:50 well 22:04:50 not qute 22:04:50 but that page will be protected 22:04:50 and only protected pages can use i think 22:04:50 ehird, hm 22:04:50 i really wish I didn't know this stuff; mediawiki is a huge hack. 22:04:50 yes 22:04:50 it is 22:04:50 1969 – She won the first "man of the year" award from the Data Processing Management Association. -- [[Grace Hopper]] 22:04:50 ^ lol 22:04:50 ehird, also that divide by zero: heh 22:04:50 ehird, where was that quote from? 22:04:50 AnMaster: "-- [[Grace Hopper]]" 22:04:50 ehird: you can turn off the fundraiser in your wikipedia preferences if you're logged in 22:04:50 oerjan: i really don't give a shit 22:04:50 I don't want to login 22:04:50 ah 22:04:50 I want the wikimedia foundation to get a clue 22:04:50 ehird, what about a smaller ad, like half the size of the compressed box? 22:04:50 something just like "Please support wikipedia" 22:04:50 or whatever 22:04:50 you want them to start doing _real_ ads because they don't get any donations? :) 22:04:50 that would be more acceptable, AnMaster 22:04:50 oerjan, no 22:04:50 but how about they get a better way to gain funds than groveling with HUGE FUCKING RED BORDERS. 22:04:50 i mean, crazy I know. 22:04:50 ehird, agreed 22:04:50 even the devs hate coding in the ads, apparently 22:04:50 last year ais said they had a MARQUEE 22:04:50 of donation messages 22:04:50 and the commit asked people to please try and talk some sense into the WMF 22:04:50 ehird, well WMF use HTML 4.0 on the fund raising pages 22:04:50 i mean on the wikipedia header 22:04:50 AnMaster: it was a javascript marquee 22:04:50 probably 22:04:50 not 22:04:50 ehird, even so 22:04:50 yeah 22:04:50 awful :P 22:04:50 ehird, noscript++ 22:04:50 notgoingtositesthatusemarquees++ 22:04:50 ehird, that too 22:04:50 but when I need to look up the plot summary of a Star Trek episode, where should I go if not wikipedia? 22:04:50 where else is there? 22:04:50 memory alpha? 22:04:50 ehird, ah true 22:04:50 I'm kind of ashamed that I know that name. 22:04:50 ehird, same 22:04:50 :P 22:04:50 AnMaster: you could use adblock to block the donation grid 22:04:50 I might do that, with a greasemonkey script (greasekit does them for safari) 22:04:50 ehird, I do use adblock as well 22:04:50 adblock and noscript 22:04:50 hello. 22:04:50 lol 22:04:50 i use lynx 22:04:50 GreaseMonkey, not you, the firefox extension 22:04:50 0.1 22:04:50 with nohtml 22:04:50 it blocks all html 22:04:50 ehird, I do use lynx sometimes, it has excellent gopher support 22:04:50 also, I only use it for gopher 22:04:50 and it support short tags better than other browsers 22:04:50 AnMaster: ugh, stop being all poe's law on me 22:04:50 i know 22:04:50 ehird, no I'm not 22:04:50 I was playing along 22:04:50 ah. ;P 22:04:50 *:P 22:04:50 :^ 22:04:50 ehird, anyway the banner goes away if you block javascript from upload.wikimedia.org 22:04:50 wikipedia uses js for other useful things tho. 22:04:50 well yes 22:04:50 there are very few cases of people using js for something good 22:04:50 all those javascript menus for example... CSS menus! 22:12:19 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 22:30:35 -!- moozilla has joined. 22:43:19 -!- metazilla has joined. 22:43:19 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:43:31 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 22:45:53 -!- metazilla has joined. 22:45:54 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:46:03 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 22:48:30 x 22:48:35 x+8 22:48:44 x! 22:49:43 9 22:50:21 i sin x - pi 22:54:07 5 22:55:11 -180 22:55:16 9 22:55:53 9 22:56:30 9 22:56:42 -9 22:57:03 9 22:57:24 0 22:57:38 9 22:58:18 387420489 22:59:32 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:59:35 -!- moozilla has joined. 23:02:00 -!- metazilla has joined. 23:02:02 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 23:02:14 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 23:07:06 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 23:11:30 Swami Abandananda 23:12:07 . 23:12:08 9 23:14:36 ^bf +++++++++[->++++++++<]>+. 23:14:36 I 23:14:41 what the heck 23:15:08 * oerjan is losing basic arithmetic 23:15:18 oerjan: ouch 23:15:24 ^bf +++++++[->++++++++<]>+. 23:15:25 9 23:15:36 oerjan: now make it print a space and 9s forever. 23:16:15 ^bf ++++++++[->+++++++>++++<<]>+[.>.<] 23:16:15 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 ... 23:16:26 yay 23:16:40 >.< 23:16:40 awwwww 23:16:54 ? 23:17:37 +[.>.<] 23:17:48 ^bf +[.>.<] 23:17:48 23:18:02 does not compute! 23:18:03 D: 23:18:05 23:16 ^bf ++++++++[->+++++++>++++<<]>+[.>.<] 23:18:20 oic 23:18:31 voici 23:18:37 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:20:30 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. Sì, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 23:26:38 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:29:47 -!- kar8nga has joined. 23:33:20 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 2008-12-31: 00:13:10 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:53:09 -!- ehird has set topic: UTC leap second tomorrow, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60. 00:53:15 (leave that there :P) 00:59:31 It's easy enough to fix xntpd. It's also easy to fix localtime() to handle leap seconds. In fact, some vendors have already adopted Olson's time library. 00:59:31 The main obstacle is POSIX. POSIX is a ``standard'' designed by a vendor consortium several years ago to eliminate progress and protect the installed base. The behavior of the broken localtime() libraries was documented and turned into a POSIX requirement. 00:59:35 Fortunately, the POSIX rules are so outrageously dumb---for example, they require that 2100 be a leap year, contradicting the Gregorian calendar---that no self-respecting engineer would obey them. 00:59:38 -- djb 02:22:19 -!- moozilla has joined. 02:22:56 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:23:04 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 02:37:55 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:38:48 -!- moozilla has joined. 02:52:55 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:53:01 -!- metazilla has joined. 02:55:45 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:42:58 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 10:02:54 -!- Corun has joined. 10:13:17 -!- kar8nga has joined. 10:16:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:17:32 we go forward in leaps and bounds 10:29:01 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 10:52:06 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 10:56:02 -!- Mony has joined. 10:57:15 plop 11:13:41 -!- moozilla has joined. 11:21:08 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 11:26:11 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:37:57 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:42:10 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 12:06:20 -!- Corun has joined. 12:52:30 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:01:23 -!- Judofyr has quit. 13:24:07 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:24:20 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 13:47:26 -!- moozilla has joined. 14:07:58 -!- metazilla has joined. 14:07:58 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:08:10 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 14:24:02 -!- kar8nga has joined. 14:27:22 gah quicklog doesn't fix the joinpart timestamps 14:28:33 -!- metazilla has joined. 14:28:35 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:28:45 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 14:30:37 anyone wanna help me fix that 14:42:59 [[Debian GNU/Linux was the first project to be deliberately modelled on the principles of distributed software development]] what 14:49:33 -!- metazilla has joined. 14:49:37 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:49:47 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 15:10:15 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:10:20 -!- metazilla has joined. 15:12:32 -!- moozilla has joined. 15:12:36 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:12:43 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 15:21:05 AnMaster: i don't think you follow the erlang programming rules :D http://www.erlang.se/doc/programming_rules.shtml#HDR11 15:21:35 ehird, I don't program defensively in erlang 15:21:50 hm. why do you program defensively elsewhere, then? 15:21:58 the rule there doesn't seem to apply specifically just to erlang. 15:22:03 ehird, I don't really, I try to apply checks only where needed 15:22:23 i seem to remember cfunge having quite a bit of that, it's ages since I looked at it though. 15:22:27 * ehird likes offensive programming 15:22:40 ("try to make bad programs crash") 15:22:52 ehird, hm? It *does* check for division by zero of course, since the funge specs state that 15:22:54 e.g. there's a non-null-terminated string library, so it puts Z right at the end of the string 15:23:04 so that programs that try and use it null-terminated will always break 15:23:12 (because a lot of the time, there might be a \0 at the end by chance) 15:23:25 ehird, nice, what is the name of that library? 15:23:37 also I think data is much saner 15:23:43 I'm not sure, I think maybe a few of them do it. I read that code first in one of djb's libraries, I think. 15:23:53 heh 15:24:12 -!- moozilla has joined. 15:24:18 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:24:21 -!- moozilla has changed nick to metazilla. 15:24:33 It'd be nice if there was a debugger suited to offensive & non-defensive programming; instead of a step-through model it'd just dump as much info as it could in a nice format when the program crashes. 15:25:01 (gdb ./p;start;cont;bt) partially achieves that. 15:25:47 * ehird searches for the lib he found the 'Z' in 15:25:48 ehird, well core dumps is quite like that 15:26:13 AnMaster: What I'm thinking is more like - being able to view the callstack, view the local variables at each point of the callstack 15:26:14 etc 15:26:19 post-crash 15:26:36 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:26:39 ehird, anyway the "defensive programming" in cfunge, I guess you could call assert() that, but that is just for debugging since release builds won't have those checks 15:26:40 -!- moozilla has joined. 15:26:45 and they *did* help catch a few bugs 15:26:52 mm 15:27:05 AnMaster: wouldn't they have even without the assert()? I mean: 15:27:12 1. if it's bad input, it'll crash your program anyway 15:27:17 2. why are you passing bad input to it? 15:27:30 It should either come from inside your program or have been checked when it was receieved 15:27:52 so assert() catches the "it comes from directly inside my program, but I made an error in calling it, and also it will just mess things up instead of crashing the program" 15:27:52 ehird, I don't, the asserts are to check for bugs, like "current top of stack > size of stack", bugs *do* happen 15:27:57 which seems quite a small case 15:28:15 and assert() end the program 15:28:31 but better end that early than hard to debug memory corruption later 15:28:32 :) 15:28:36 True 15:28:51 thank gawd for out-of-band error signaling. 15:29:00 indeed 15:29:58 oh leap second today? 15:30:05 Yep 15:30:17 -!- ehird has set topic: UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60. 15:30:22 huh, wasn't there one only last year or so? 15:30:23 -!- ehird has set topic: UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/. 15:30:29 AnMaster: 2005 i think 15:30:39 ah, well time files when you get older ;P 15:30:57 i am going to try and run as many time-related programs on this machine as possible 15:31:02 and maybe screenshot at the right moment 15:31:05 to see how many manage it XD 15:31:21 ehird, hm? I think ntp or such will just correct it a bit later 15:31:33 such as jumping backwards a second a bit later 15:31:35 or? 15:31:37 AnMaster: posix specifies that leap seconds are explicitly ignored 15:31:40 which is retarded 15:31:49 but apparently a lot of systems just ignore posix on that point because it's stupid 15:32:01 (apparently POSIX specifies 2100 as a leap year.) 15:32:12 ehird, hm, what exactly does "explicitly ignored" mean for leap seconds? 15:32:28 AnMaster: "the second field is never 60" 15:32:35 iirc a lot of systems handle that by _repeating time_ 15:32:37 really 15:32:51 it goes to 23:59:59.9, then back to 23:59:59.0 15:33:07 ah 15:33:15 ehird, time travel :) 15:33:32 AnMaster: that should be unix-alikes' new marketing strategy 15:33:36 hah 15:33:36 "So powerful you could TRAVEL THROUGH TIME" 15:33:43 how does OS X handle it? 15:33:52 I'm going to find out, aren't I? 15:34:04 Probably I should set my system clock forward and test, but that's cheating. 15:34:27 iirc I did some test in 2005, and found out that the system just went on and then ntp corrected the time backwards with one second a few minutes after 15:34:47 heh 15:34:48 ouch 15:35:00 hooray for standards-specified idiocy 15:35:16 yes, that and dlsym() 15:35:26 AnMaster: ah, the "no functions" thing? 15:35:29 yep 15:35:50 that's not a dlsym stupidity, that's a "funcptrs don't neccessarily go in anything but a funcptr" 15:35:55 stupidity 15:36:17 AnMaster: posix gives functions as an example though http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/dlsym.html 15:36:25 but while it's valid posix 15:36:27 it's not valid c. 15:36:30 well there are systems where sizeof(function pointer) != sizeof(data pointer) 15:36:37 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:36:39 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 15:36:41 but posix doesn't support them 15:36:44 the correct solution is a dlsym specifically for functions. 15:36:48 yes 15:36:59 * AnMaster looks at POSIX.1-2008 pdf 15:37:14 and maybe a nice wrapper that returns a struct{int type;union{void *var;blah *func}data;} 15:37:16 or whatever 15:37:19 draft that is 15:38:53 The ISO C standard does not require that pointers to functions can be cast back and forth to 15:38:53 pointers to data. However, POSIX-conforming implementations are required to support this, as 15:38:53 noted in Section 2.12.3 (on page 541). The result of converting a pointer to a function into a 15:38:53 pointer to another data type (except void *) is still undefined, however. 15:38:54 haha 15:39:02 Yes. 15:39:16 Note that compilers conforming to the ISO C standard are required to generate a warning if a 15:39:16 conversion from a void * pointer to a function pointer is attempted as in: 15:39:16 fptr = (int (*)(int))dlsym(handle, "my_function"); 15:39:29 I suggest we assassinate the POSIX writers. 15:40:43 -!- metazilla has joined. 15:40:43 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:40:51 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 15:41:42 ehird, hm, would be messy 15:41:59 But for the best! 15:42:14 ehird, what would you prefer? win32 api being standard? 15:42:31 I suspect that it would get even worse without posix 15:42:47 err grammar 15:42:48 I'm pretty sure people wrote cross-platform programs before POSIX, didn't they? :P 15:43:07 ehird, yeah they did, with lots and lots of #ifdef 15:43:08 Alternatively: how about an open effort to create a standard that doesn't require violating the C standard 15:43:16 I have seen such source 15:43:17 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:43:43 ehird, and good idea, just one change needed: dlfunc() dldata() 15:43:47 issue solved 15:44:05 AnMaster: Okay, then they can get rid of all the POSIX cruft. 15:44:09 Maybe fix the datetime stuff. :- 15:44:10 :-P 15:45:09 Incidentally, I invented a weird game. 15:46:10 ehird, 1) yes POSIX is quite good in many parts, a cleanup of it would be the best way 2) what game? 15:46:22 1) yeah 15:46:23 2): 15:46:28 Every player guesses a number. The winner is the player who guessed the number closest to the average (mean or median or whatever, I dunno) of all the guesses. 15:46:53 Your guess may be initially best, but when it's entered, it may change the average, thus becoming less accurate. 15:46:56 :D 15:49:19 heh 15:49:40 ehird, what if all players are equally close? 15:49:45 or at least two are 15:49:51 That would be what we call a tie, AnMaster. 15:49:55 yes 15:49:57 :P 15:50:00 but what are the rules in the game for that 15:50:01 :P 15:50:11 Well, none. 15:50:11 I mean, shared win or? 15:50:20 Hrm. 15:50:30 AnMaster: Just make an arbitrary rule 15:50:34 like, whichever was higher 15:50:40 if they're both equal... I dunno. 15:50:47 AnMaster: do it as an elimination game 15:50:50 you could have several rounds, the winner of each round wins one point, then what would happen in the case of a tie? 15:50:56 each round, the player that made the furthest away guess is dropped 15:51:04 ehird, that would work too 15:51:07 if there are multiple with the furthest away, drop all of them 15:51:11 (except I hate to play such games) 15:51:14 when it's down to two... 15:51:17 i have no idea. 15:51:26 ehird, hm 15:51:39 ehird, you could make many variations on this 15:51:44 Yes. 15:51:48 I think the concept has potential 15:59:43 * ehird installs Chicken. 16:02:48 Incidentally, I use a piece of software written in Tcl every day/ 16:02:51 MacPorts. 16:03:18 The whole thing -- right down to the portfiles -- is all tcl. It works great. (the portfiles look just like a homebrewed format; since Tcl is so freeform) 16:16:16 -!- LinuS has joined. 16:17:23 [[Jeffrey Mark Siskind, author of Stalin]] 16:17:43 Meanwhile, I authored Hitler. 16:18:08 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:20:35 Huh, I think I'm having problems with emacs key bindings. 16:20:43 That's odd, I rarely use emacs. Why would I be having issues? 16:21:07 (Specifically, C-x C-f. No, I will not remap capslock to ctrl. ;P) 16:26:00 ehird, eh what is the issue with C-x C-f exactly? 16:26:18 AnMaster: Emacs pinkie, I believe it's called. 16:26:19 it opens find file prompt in the minibuffer for me 16:26:39 ehird, ah so no issue like "it doesn't work" or "it does the wrong thing" 16:26:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Emacs#Emacs_Pinky 16:26:42 Yeah. 16:26:45 It's not hurting, it's just awkward. :P 16:26:56 ehird, it seems quite natural to me 16:27:09 My hands are small, though. 16:27:14 but I have big hands and this is a standard full size PC keyboard 16:27:34 TextMate's completion shortcut is option-escape. I never use it for that erason. 16:27:36 *reason 16:27:50 ehird, I can quite easily do Ctrl-Alt-Esc with one hand, iirc that was something used on pre-OS X macs 16:28:00 macbugs maybe 16:28:01 not sure 16:28:05 i can do that but I have to contort my hands. 16:28:11 It's slow. 16:28:12 contort? 16:28:40 http://www.google.com/search?q=define:contort 16:28:50 ah 16:29:58 * ehird designates ~/Code/crap/foo.scm as his Chicken testpad. 16:30:41 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:35:12 http://chicken.wiki.br/sandbox Ooooooooh yes 16:35:46 Shame about the lack of io tho. 16:42:59 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 16:56:24 hm chicken, isn't it r6rs iirc? 16:56:30 or is it one of those that isn't 17:01:28 ehird, ^ 17:01:44 It is a sideset of r5rs. 17:01:46 (subset & superset) 17:02:02 http://call-with-current-continuation.org/ 17:02:11 Uh. 17:02:11 http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/ 17:02:13 Needs the www. 17:02:35 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:15:35 hrm 17:15:59 14:01:56 so cute i'm almost crying :) 17:37:39 15:12:32 i never understood these laws, at least 100% of 13-year-olds are having sex anyway 17:42:10 -!- atrapado has joined. 18:09:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:11:55 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR KAZAKHSTAN. 18:12:12 Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY OLD YEAR 18:12:16 er. 18:12:21 -!- ehird has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY OLD YEAR. 18:12:31 * oerjan swats ehird -----### 18:12:41 * ehird steals oerjan's swatter 18:12:52 * ehird swats oerjan -----### 18:13:02 * oerjan watches ehird get eaten by the swatter 18:13:10 * ehird eats the swatter before it manages 18:13:15 * ehird burrrrrrrrrrrrrp 18:13:22 it's distantly related to the Luggage, you see 18:13:55 * oerjan watches a big bump forming on ehird's stomach 18:14:02 * ehird eats the bump 18:15:15 * oerjan listens to something chewing inside ehird's stomach 18:15:25 * ehird eats himself 18:15:33 CAN'T CHEW A SINGULARITY 18:15:37 there _might_ be a bit of xenomorph in it, too 18:16:19 i'd say that was a singularly bad idea 18:16:30 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR BANGLADESH. 18:16:31 * ehird absorbs all light. 18:16:42 * ehird starts sucking in random shit and grows bigger. 18:16:48 hey am blak hol 18:17:04 * oerjan flies to the LHC to make an opposing hole 18:17:50 * ehird absorbs the LHC while it is turned on 18:17:56 Whoah, freaky. 18:18:00 The black holes are trying to suck me in. 18:18:05 But they are no match for I. 18:20:05 ("try to make bad programs crash") 18:20:19 "try to make bad programs end life as we know it" 18:20:25 now _that's_ offensive 18:20:36 Actually, that's what I'm doing right now as a black hole. 18:20:39 * ehird gobbles up oerjan 18:20:47 but, you're not a program 18:20:55 yes. I am. 18:21:02 * oerjan retrieves his swatter from inside ehird 18:21:10 You're in a black hole. 18:21:15 how the fuck are you using the internet? 18:21:18 as is my swatter 18:21:35 superluminal eta waves 18:21:42 I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BH-no-escape-3.svg 18:23:16 16:26:17 okay16:26:26 here's an actual question as opposed to a rant.16:28:21 nevermind16:28:24 here's some more ranting. 18:27:38 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:27:58 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 18:29:53 [20:18:57] < fizzie> we both have this weird habit of first writing a befunge interpreter when trying to learn a new language. 18:29:55 -- 2002 18:30:56 * oerjan did too, except with unlambda 18:32:56 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR INDIA. 18:33:12 one of those strange half-hour countries 18:34:41 i'm happy, why? 18:35:18 freak natural accident? 18:35:28 :D 18:42:19 Your guess may be initially best, but when it's entered, it may change the average, thus becoming less accurate. 18:42:35 yes? 18:42:42 adding a guess equal to the average would tend not to change the average, at least for means 18:42:54 oerjan: getting a guess -equal- to the average is very unlikely 18:42:57 I'm talking about close to the average 18:43:04 still 18:43:21 if you add a number, the average is going to get closer to that number 18:43:29 i guess 18:43:34 so if it was closest, it must still be 18:43:52 probably true for median too 18:44:25 in fact that might be taken as an axiom for a reasonable average 18:44:34 i guess so 18:45:32 have you heard about the mediocrity game? 18:45:55 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:46:38 no 18:47:22 it's played in levels 18:48:06 -!- Mony has quit ("Happy New Year guys ;)"). 18:48:22 hmph why no google link 18:48:29 (proper) 18:51:17 you'd think someone had purged the links :D 18:52:16 ah there 18:52:31 on level 0 everyone selects a number (1-10), say 18:52:41 the middle number wins that level 18:53:31 for level n: play m games of level n-1 mediocrity. the winner is the one with the middle number of n-1 wins 18:54:17 "The strategy for higher level games of mediocrity (3+) is extremely difficult." 18:54:24 http://everything2.com/title/Mediocrity 18:55:18 heh 18:55:30 oerjan: mine's cooler though. 18:55:38 because it is meta about the actual bets 19:02:31 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR UZBEKISTAN. 19:03:03 -!- ehird has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR MOLVANIA. 19:05:48 rubbish. that's at least 3 hours yet 19:06:06 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR MALDIVES. 19:12:41 -!- ehird has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY BIRTHDAY MALDIVES. 19:23:42 wait a minute 19:32:16 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR AFGHANISTAN. 19:32:24 they're gonna need it 20:00:23 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR ARMENIA. 20:02:11 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 20:04:44 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:07:32 [02:36:28] < fizzie> hmm, got an idea. why not run all ietf drafts through a markov-process-like-word-mangler like the befunge psycho meta brain works. easy way to get an unlimited number of more internet-drafts. 20:18:36 -!- moozilla has joined. 20:20:48 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:20:51 -!- metazilla has joined. 20:22:04 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:25:14 that amuses me because of the randomly-generated paper that got accepted into a conference this year. 20:28:35 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:28:47 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 20:30:39 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR IRAN. 20:31:24 you really need to cheer up 20:33:49 asztal: sokal affair again? 20:39:51 more or less 20:39:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCIgen#Prominent_Results 20:40:05 I thought it was this year though, not 2005 20:40:40 yes it was on reddit recently 20:40:55 it was a computer generated paper 20:40:57 -!- metazilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:41:00 -!- moozilla has joined. 20:41:52 oh it seems it was 2005. well typical of reddit 20:43:25 -!- metazilla has joined. 20:43:25 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:43:33 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 21:01:26 'On two occasions I have been asked,—"Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" [...] I am not able rightly to comprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.' 21:02:51 psygnisfive: i read that quote when I was like in the womb. 21:02:56 :p 21:03:08 i only just read it and i find it quite pithy 21:03:33 it follows on from being indistinguishable from magic. 21:04:13 -!- metazilla has joined. 21:04:15 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:04:25 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 21:04:25 metazilla: are you the mooz_ of 2002 gone by? 21:04:28 moozilla: 21:04:48 ehird have you been around here since 2002? 21:05:02 psygnisfive: no, but I have logs of dec 2002 from fizzie :P 21:05:07 ok 21:05:10 wish I was here in 2002 tho 21:05:20 i'd have been 7 21:05:25 i was gonna say, esoterica? when you were just 7? what nonsense is this 21:05:42 well, or 6 21:05:49 birthday in august, so, 6 21:05:57 i'd've been lesse 21:05:59 16? 21:06:18 hmm 21:06:27 under 16s here: ihope, deveah, ... 21:06:28 i think thats it 21:06:29 oh 21:06:31 asie 21:06:32 :p 21:06:41 lets pretend it's 6 years ago 21:06:50 ill be 16 you be 6. 21:06:50 psygnisfive: that's impossible, this place was way cooler then 21:06:57 I mean, fizzie didn't use uppercase for chrissake 21:06:59 that's the power of 2002 21:07:06 * psygnisfive age 16 raeps you age 6 21:07:10 no. 21:07:12 ah nothing changed i see! 21:07:13 :P 21:07:25 uppercase? what's uppercase? 21:07:27 :| 21:07:28 hi lol 21:07:29 hu r u 21:07:47 I don't actually know how I typed when I was 6 (I didn't use any social communimacation machines on the interweb). 21:08:05 i didnt either but thats because when i was 6 we didnt have electricity 21:08:07 But I typed basically all lower-case, punctuation-netspeak-clusterfuck of incoherency when I was 8. 21:08:23 i never typed that way 21:08:35 Reading back on what I said then, it was awful. I can't even figure out wtf I was saying. 21:08:43 Needless to say, I was universally hated. :P 21:09:00 now it takes a more refined eye to detect your youth 21:10:01 I was dreading my 13th birthday. Because non-retarded 13 year olds are slightly more common. :P 21:10:20 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR MADAGASCAR. 21:10:56 Madagascar 2 was a good movie, surprisingly 21:12:20 http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/garble.htm 21:12:32 that was you? 21:12:34 ehird have you seen my websites backgrounds? 21:12:38 Yes. 21:13:00 oerjan: no, I just came off as annoying and idiotic. 21:13:10 arent they lovely backgrounds, ehird? :D 21:13:16 no :P 21:13:19 :( 21:13:34 im considering using a massive 1D CA trace 21:13:40 maybe 110 doing some computation 21:14:10 psygnisfive: just make it run game of life in the background. 21:14:11 :P 21:14:16 too much effort 21:14:25 psygnisfive: pre-render it as an anigif 21:14:37 too annoying 21:15:19 psygnisfive: who cares 21:15:22 i do 21:16:26 -!- metazilla has joined. 21:16:32 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:16:38 -!- metazilla has changed nick to moozilla. 21:17:21 continuous CAs are weird 21:17:51 hm? 21:18:35 continuous CAs 21:18:42 as opposed to ones that use discrete time/space 21:18:51 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:18:55 -!- moozilla has joined. 21:19:47 interesting. 21:20:35 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_spatial_automaton 21:21:45 continuous spatial automaton might describe the universe ;) 21:21:48 spatula automaton 21:21:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:21:56 spatual! 21:22:01 no, spatula. 21:22:07 spataul! 21:22:09 no, spatula. 21:22:20 spatalu! 21:22:47 no, spatula. 21:22:59 sputala! 21:23:02 no, spatula. 21:23:22 sputaal! 21:23:24 no, spatula. 21:23:28 suptaal! 21:23:32 no, spatula. 21:23:41 spatula! 21:24:11 latsaup 21:24:12 yes, spatula. 21:24:14 agh 21:24:17 fuck you oerjan 21:24:18 you ruined it 21:24:19 :( 21:24:22 YOU RUINED EVERYTHING 21:24:22 spatula spatula spatual! :D 21:24:25 that's actually a genuine norwegian insult 21:24:32 latsaup you, then. 21:24:49 or at least sounds like one 21:25:01 spatual! :D 21:25:23 splatau 21:25:33 splatau!! :DDD 21:25:44 [07:55:30] < lament> calamari: They're probably on crack, so your argument doesn't hold 21:25:50 --2002 21:26:04 http://handson.provocateuse.com/images/photos/christian_bale_10.jpg 21:26:05 hitler! 21:26:06 christian bale is emo 21:31:30 [02:47:45] < navigator> hey have any ascii anime porn links? 21:31:31 -- 2002 21:31:36 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:39:04 [20:14:16] < navigator> to use linux as the wa^H^Hgateway, mustn't i put 1 in /proc/sus^H^Hys/net/ipv4/ip_forward and that's it? 21:39:09 those are literal ^Hs in the file 21:39:10 a rare gem 21:40:46 you mean those aren't attempts at irony? 21:40:52 ehird 21:40:53 http://complexification.net/gallery/ 21:40:59 choose something for me to use as my desktop 21:40:59 the wa^H shows some promise 21:41:22 psygnisfive: generate a file with random noise pixels and use that 21:41:25 'swhat I did for a while 21:41:37 ?? 21:41:38 white noise? 21:41:44 no, random noise pixels 21:41:53 yes, visual white noise 21:41:59 psygnisfive: but multicolour. 21:42:03 photoshop doesit :P 21:42:06 hm 21:42:12 i dont know if i want THAT tho 21:42:19 it's awfully wonderful 21:42:40 lemme see 21:42:47 hmm 21:42:52 photoshop needs to start faster 21:42:56 that binary ring thing somehow disturbs me. take that. 21:43:01 why? 21:43:14 (second last) 21:43:50 s/take that/use that/ 21:44:03 darn idioms 21:44:17 hmm 21:44:40 i wonder what scales gaussian noise can be tiled at without looking repetetive 21:44:48 time to experiment! 21:45:10 ITYM repetetetive 21:45:32 ? 21:45:44 ITYM repetetetetive 21:49:56 hmm 21:50:07 i need a way to script creating random noise 21:50:17 and tiling images 21:52:28 hm 21:52:37 it becomes hard to detect tiling at 50px 21:52:45 not impossible but its not as obvious as, say, 10px 21:52:47 or 20px 22:03:58 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR ZAMBIA. 22:04:35 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:05:09 ah someone who hails from the future year 2009 22:05:25 planning to celebrate the leap second? 22:05:35 we all are. 22:05:35 duh. 22:09:18 i wont notice the leap second 22:09:24 we will force you to. 22:09:30 D: 22:10:00 hey you know whats good about 2009? 22:10:03 star trek :D 22:10:09 don't worry, it will be a short torture 22:10:31 you mean star trek becomes real in 2009? 22:10:36 yep! 22:10:43 in 2009 we'll be flying around in space ships. 22:10:51 about time! 22:25:28 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:33:52 oerjan: 22:33:55 plz to be updating topicK? 22:34:21 hm? 22:34:27 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR GREAT ZIMBABWE. 22:34:45 there are no +1:30 timezones in the wp list 22:35:12 i guess that will do 22:35:32 and they need it too 22:35:43 sinze +1:30 doesnt exist, we wish happy new year to an empire that doesnt exist 22:35:46 :) 22:36:34 someone else should update next half hour as i will be going out to watch fireworks 22:36:50 *in half an hour 22:45:52 im in an exceptional mood gentlemen 22:45:54 EXCEPTION 22:45:55 AL 22:46:00 poop 22:47:21 :) 22:49:25 i guess the :) means it's an exceptionally _good_ mood rather than the opposite 22:49:30 fireworks -> 22:53:25 -> fireworks 22:53:55 what is it? +1? 22:55:08 beats me 22:56:48 oerjan is in sweden right? 22:57:24 ... 22:57:25 norway 22:57:37 close enough 22:57:54 who gets the happy new year at 23:00 UTC? 22:59:05 uhh 22:59:07 molvania 22:59:13 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR ALBANIA, ANDORRA, AUSTRIA, BELGIUM, BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA, CROATIA, CZECH REPUBLIC, DENMARK, FRANCE, GERMANY, GIBRALTAR, HUNGARY, ITALY, KOSOVO, LIECHTENSTEIN, LUXEMBOURG, MACEDONIA, MALTA, MONACO, MONTENEGRO, NETHERLANDS, NORWAY, POLAND, SAN MARINO, SERBIA, SLOVAKIA, SLOVENIA, SPAIN, EXCEPT CANARY ISLANDS, SV. 22:59:22 SV 22:59:25 psygnisfive: you're a few seconds early 22:59:25 SV------- 22:59:35 is got cut off :( 22:59:43 cut out the log 22:59:44 s 22:59:46 HAPPY NEW YEAR ALBANIA, ANDORRA, AUSTRIA, BELGIUM, BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA, CROATIA, CZECH REPUBLIC, DENMARK, FRANCE, GERMANY, GIBRALTAR, HUNGARY, ITALY, KOSOVO, LIECHTENSTEIN, LUXEMBOURG, MACEDONIA, MALTA, MONACO, MONTENEGRO, NETHERLANDS, NORWAY, POLAND, SAN MARINO, SERBIA, SLOVAKIA, SLOVENIA, SPAIN, EXCEPT CANARY ISLANDS, SVALBARD AND JAN MAYEN, SWEDEN, SWITZERLAND, TUNISIA, VATICAN CITY, ALGERIA, ANGOLA, BENIN 22:59:46 nobody cares about the logs 22:59:48 , BOUVET ISLAND, CAMEROON, CENTRAL AFRICAN REPUBLIC, CHAD, DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF THE CONGO, EQUATORIAL GUINEA, GABON, NIGER, NIGERIA, AND REPUBLIC OF THE CONGO! 22:59:51 psygnisfive: BENIN- 23:00:16 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR OERJAN. 23:00:31 u.u 23:06:00 YES! 23:06:06 I'M OFFICIALLY A COUNTRY 23:06:15 ALSO, HAPPY NEW YEAR 23:06:26 ehird: I care about the logs 23:06:29 so does oklopol 23:06:31 so do freenode 23:06:33 w/e mon 23:06:45 oklopol is impresent 23:06:56 oerjan: oklopol is esolang programming 23:07:01 therefore, this channel is actually about him 23:08:17 SVALBARD AND JAN MAYEN belong to norway, btw 23:09:09 jan mayen has our only volcano 23:11:42 * oerjan was going to say something about how countries with "democratic" in their names are rarely democratic 23:12:04 oerjan: no more firevurkz? 23:12:19 then i checked up the republic of the congo without the democratic part and found out it's not much better 23:12:41 * oerjan decided fireworks are really stupid, especially when you need to go to the toilet 23:13:14 man this place was so much better in 2002 23:13:18 IT IS NOW 2002, OK 23:13:31 no, it is officially 1993 23:13:34 and has been all month 23:13:36 )-`: 23:13:41 no 2002 is cool 23:13:44 YOU DON'T LIKE US 23:13:46 it is exempted from eternal september 23:13:49 oerjan: you can come. 23:14:03 fizzie: calling you in. 23:14:07 navigator, lament, mooz_: you too. 23:14:24 #esoteric was basically just a conversation between fizzie, navigator and mooz_ 23:14:30 with lament and dbc occasionally butting in. 23:14:35 they're talking about tibooks., 23:14:44 AnMaster: i'll sneak you in the backdoor while ehird isn't looking :D 23:14:51 fuck 23:15:29 what's a tibook. any relation to springboks? 23:15:43 Titanium Powerbook. 23:15:47 From Apple computar. 23:16:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_G4 23:17:26 hm a conundrum 23:17:45 will eternal september end when the whole world has internet access? 23:17:50 no. 23:17:51 [23:22:07] < navigator> i'm not sure why to kill the neighbor's dog 23:18:16 because it's barking, or rather howling, half of the day 23:18:29 at least that's why _i_ want to kill the neighbor's dog 23:18:29 [23:26:51] -!- mode/#esoteric [+o navigator] by ChanServ 23:18:30 WHOA. 23:18:31 HE'S OP? 23:18:35 THIS IS NEW> 23:18:40 this is awesome 23:18:42 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 23:18:53 and hasn't been seen for years? 23:18:53 [23:27:58] < fizzie> IN SOVIET RUSSIA baby jesus makes os X and fvwm2 cry! (ok, that's it, no more /. for me) 23:18:57 it was funny in 2002 23:19:21 i guess i'm still in 2002, as i laughed 23:19:25 *lolled 23:20:17 ais523: 23:20:17 [00:31:37] < mooz_> hmm, esolang discussions are rather rare here 23:20:20 PRECEDENT!! 23:20:29 PRESIDENT!! 23:20:53 PRESCIENT!! 23:21:01 umm 23:21:08 CREAMPUFF!! 23:21:33 ooh hard one 23:21:41 DREAMSTUFF!! 23:22:24 ... 23:22:25 GREEN 23:22:37 SPLEEN 23:22:46 MEAN 23:22:49 MACHINE 23:22:59 BACHINE 23:23:02 Precedent PResident Prescient Creampuff Dreamstuff Green Spleen Mean Machine Bachine 23:23:04 that is some machine 23:23:12 MOCHA 23:23:14 PPPCDGSMMB 23:23:17 er, MOCCA 23:23:17 PPPCDGSMMBM 23:23:30 POPPADUM 23:23:57 oh wait it is MOCHA in english 23:24:04 yes 23:24:49 PAPADOPOULOS 23:25:42 [19:48:18] < IcemanX> Have you seen navigator? 23:25:42 [19:49:20] < IcemanX> Hurry up please! 23:25:44 [19:49:51] < IcemanX> Have you seen navigator? 23:25:46 [19:50:04] < IcemanX> fizzie? 23:25:48 thing with this is 23:25:50 this guy comes in every few days 23:25:52 and asks for navigator 23:25:54 and never does anything else 23:25:57 and they always miss each other by a few minutes 23:26:49 and no one notices that they look just the same except for glasses? 23:26:54 :DD 23:27:12 in phonology thatd be called complementary distribtion 23:27:27 which we'd use to infer that two things are really the same thing 23:27:50 obviously linguists in the Marvel universe is well aware of superman and clark kents sameness 23:27:55 another possibility is that navigator is psychic and _really_ doesn't want to see IcemanX 23:28:28 wrong universe, psygnisfive 23:28:50 DC 23:28:51 same thing 23:28:54 --- Day changed Wed Jan 01 2003 23:31:18 [03:21:42] < lament> I am not the channel founder 23:31:18 [03:22:01] < lament> navigator is. 23:31:20 [03:22:09] * andreou == navigator 23:31:22 wait wait wait 23:31:25 I thought it was aardappel????????????? 23:32:35 HAPPY NEW YEAR + 32 minutes! 23:32:44 happy new year - 32 minutes 23:32:50 errr 23:32:59 happy new year - (60 - 32) minutes 23:33:04 AnMaster: i'll sneak you in the backdoor while ehird isn't looking :D <-- ?? 23:33:09 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 23:33:20 we're going back to 2002 23:33:26 when this place was cooler 23:33:31 AnMaster: you are not expected to understand this 23:33:53 oerjan, I guess I was just a random victim then 23:34:03 no, i wouldn't say that 23:34:09 not random at all, no 23:34:13 oerjan, oh btw that wouldn't have worked I was just standing inside the backdoor around then 23:34:17 watching fireworks 23:34:23 ah 23:34:43 also, happy new year 23:34:44 oerjan, and I knew it was closed, too cold to have it open 23:34:48 oerjan, same 23:34:55 happy new year - (60 - 32) minutes 23:34:56 no 23:35:00 happy new year + (60 - 32) minutes 23:35:01 :P 23:35:07 happy new year from Karlsruhe/Germany ! 23:35:08 that would have worked for you 23:35:08 uh... 23:35:09 no 23:35:14 AnMaster: happy 2008 for me. What's it like in 2009? 23:35:16 it isn't new year yet here. 23:35:17 ah right 23:35:23 ais523, the same 23:35:24 I'm considering going there in about half an hour, could do with a review 23:35:32 the same? 23:35:34 won't bother then. 23:35:39 Happy hours away from the new year. 23:35:40 ais523, however a very high amount of fireworks so far this year 23:35:45 highly unusual 23:35:53 sounds awful 23:35:55 ehird: put it this way: AnMaster didn't recommend it, so I'd imagine you'd jump at the chance 23:36:01 :D 23:36:01 [05:29:40] * lament is away: my tarantula is molting!!!! 23:36:10 ehird, hah 23:36:13 -- 2002 23:36:18 well 23:36:18 jan 2003 23:36:19 by now 23:36:23 ais523, hm would you say "counter clockwise" or "anti clockwise" 23:36:25 in English 23:36:25 * ehird reading >3000 lines of logs from fizzie 23:36:29 AnMaster: both. 23:36:40 no one is more common? 23:36:42 AnMaster: they're both correct, I hear anticlockwise more often 23:36:50 My dictionary list both 23:36:53 hm 23:36:56 i hear both the same 23:36:58 I think it depends 23:37:02 "turn the dial anticlockwise" 23:37:02 but 23:37:07 "a reverse clock goes counterclockwise" 23:37:20 heh 23:37:24 ehird: nah, I'd say it went anticlockwise 23:37:27 and therefore would be an anticlock 23:37:31 ais523: that's because you suck 23:37:48 it is like ned and ner in Swedish then (both means "down") 23:38:02 sheesh, an anticlock would make _time_ go backwards 23:38:19 [18:05:22] -!- lament [~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net] has joined ricotee 23:38:20 [18:10:45] < lament> my tarantula molted! 23:38:27 ... 23:38:30 ricotee -> mangled #esoteric 23:38:33 oerjan, and would cease to exist if it came in physical contact with a normal clock? 23:38:33 vi is fucked up on this system 23:38:43 AnMaster: quite probably 23:38:46 very messed up for you to typo it that badly 23:38:51 ehird, I thought that was what vi always was 23:38:53 ;P 23:38:53 not a typo, ais523 23:38:57 vi actually displayed it as that 23:39:09 I think it has miscalculated the number of columns in my terminal 23:39:11 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----### 23:39:28 oerjan, oh you are not one of us enlightened emacs users? 23:39:32 I pitty you 23:39:36 I used to think that counterclockwise is called counterclockwise because a counter clock goes that way. 23:39:52 * ehird has used both vi and emacs for months each. 23:39:55 Warrigal, hah 23:39:56 I prefer TextMate. 23:39:58 emacs? vi(m)? 23:40:02 i agree with ehird 23:40:04 TM > all 23:40:04 I also use kate and kdevelop 23:40:12 psygnisfive: shut up, you're making me look bad by association. 23:40:23 * psygnisfive rapes ehird 23:40:27 no. 23:40:31 that is not shutting up. 23:40:52 all that moaning is rather noisy 23:40:53 I use emacs as my main programming editor, gedit for quick notes, and vi every now and then (normally over ssh or telnet) 23:41:09 vi is fine, just I haven't really got to know it yet 23:41:54 emacs and kate for programming; kdevelop for programming too, but not as often; nano for quick config editing as root or over ssh 23:42:17 i use emacs for lisp and haskell. 23:42:44 oh? 23:43:10 AnMaster: vi is pretty much a universal editor for UNIX-alikes, and it fits in hardly any disk space 23:43:13 which care good reasons to know it 23:43:28 sometimes I use systems which don't have enough disk space to fit emacs on them 23:58:50 PLEASE BRACE FOR UPCOMING LEAP SECOND 23:58:55 oerjan: is time.gov down? 23:58:58 I can't seem to access it 23:59:11 ah, it's not 23:59:15 just didn't work the first time for some reason