←2009-01-21 2009-01-22 2009-01-23→ ↑2009 ↑all
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00:32:39 <oklofok> MizardX: does matlab have lambdas?
00:32:49 <oklofok> combinators? forks?
00:33:50 <MizardX> I think @(params)expr could be considered a lambda-function... combinators and forks, I don't know.
00:34:53 <oklofok> well. you can rename the sum with a lambda and use the name
00:35:10 <oklofok> but err. seems like there could be a simple more mathematical hack there
00:37:32 <oklofok> nah probably not
00:39:20 <MizardX> min(abs(sum(sum(N)) - 3 - [N(5) 0])) == 0
00:39:29 <oklofok> err matlab doesn't distinguish between functions and lists?
00:39:31 <oklofok> i mean syntactically
00:39:54 <oklofok> what does [N(5) 0] mean?
00:40:02 <oklofok> oh
00:40:04 <oklofok> implicit map
00:40:50 <oklofok> hmm
00:40:52 <oklofok> oh abs
00:40:52 <MizardX> All values are matrices. Scalars have dimension 1x1.
00:41:04 <oklofok> couldn't you skip the abs and use max?
00:41:57 <oklofok> err
00:42:01 <oklofok> i see i see
00:42:11 <oklofok> but it's an implicit map in that case?
00:42:16 <oklofok> i mean.
00:42:25 <oklofok> well.
00:42:32 <oklofok> i still don't know what [N(5) 0] means
00:42:43 <oklofok> unless it's an array of size 2 containing those two
00:43:03 <MizardX> [1 2 3; 4 5 6; 7 8 9] is the syntax for matrices
00:43:55 <MizardX> N(5) is the fifth element of N (ignoring the second dimension)
00:43:58 <oklofok> 2:42, need to sleep now. anyway i'll just assume i guessed it right because it works :P
00:44:01 <oklofok> i know it is
00:44:34 <oklofok> are arrays functions in matlab, can you pass them to, say, map?
00:44:46 <oklofok> but really, sleep, can't keep my eyes open
00:44:50 <oklofok> cya ~>
00:45:45 <MizardX> Hard to explain everything. Most the syntax have evolved and are there for convenience.
00:46:32 <MizardX> Matlab is good att matrix and vector calculation.
00:47:49 <MizardX> If you can express an algorithm as a matrix/vector expression, then matlab can execute it quickly.
00:49:15 <MizardX> A * B = matrix product, with special casing for vector and scalar values.
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01:04:10 <Max_D> the fuck?
01:15:32 <puzzlet> typical netsplit, apprently
01:56:11 * Max_D whistles
02:44:20 <psygnisfive> oktabot!
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06:15:41 <Max_D> arrrrr
06:19:46 * Max_D wakes everybody up
06:20:35 <psygnisfive> o.o
06:52:50 <Max_D> soooooooooo...
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08:42:23 <psygnisfive> so
08:42:40 <amca> so
08:47:45 <psygnisfive> i wonder
08:48:34 <amca> What do you wonder?
08:48:49 <psygnisfive> what kinds of programming can we do if we force the entire model to be MISD
08:49:47 <amca> As in Multiple Instruction, Single data?
08:49:54 <psygnisfive> yeah
08:50:01 <psygnisfive> im using it loosely here ofcourse
08:50:03 <psygnisfive> but like
08:50:21 <amca> I think it would be called CISC. ;)
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08:51:02 <psygnisfive> if we had to force all our functions to accept one and only one argument
08:51:12 <psygnisfive> except the functions that act like reduces
08:51:13 <ais523> psygnisfive: then you'd end up with Unlambda?
08:51:17 <psygnisfive> :P
08:51:43 <amca> Like Lambda Calculus?
08:51:51 <psygnisfive> no no i mean more like
08:52:28 <ais523> amca: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unlambda
08:52:37 <psygnisfive> well, im not really sure what i mean
08:52:43 <ais523> it's one of the seminal esolangs, you should look it up if you don't know it
08:53:56 <psygnisfive> im just thinking about how the brain processes data, and such.
08:54:11 <psygnisfive> i guess purely functional programming is vaguely like that i suppose
08:54:46 <amca> ais523: Ive come across it. It is more combinatorial logic than LC isnt it?
08:55:14 <ais523> yes
08:55:23 <ais523> although LC can be compiled into combinatorial logic
08:55:33 <amca> And vice versa?
08:55:36 <ais523> I don't know of anyone who's tried to write Unlambda without going via LC first
08:55:39 <ais523> except for very simple programs
08:59:24 <psygnisfive> hm.. everything-as-a-stream is interesting too
09:03:48 <amca> There is a name for that isnt there? Data <something> programming languages?
09:04:09 <psygnisfive> well, there are stream programming languages
09:04:17 <psygnisfive> but i dont know of a language where _everything_ must be a stream
09:04:23 <psygnisfive> all data, anyway
09:05:26 <ais523> Sceql?
09:06:09 <psygnisfive> no i mean a real language :p
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10:02:12 <oprz> hi
10:02:20 <oerjan> hello
10:02:26 <oprz> i was coding in +'s and .'s
10:02:28 <oprz> is this ok?
10:02:41 <oerjan> in brainfuck?
10:02:51 <oprz> yeah
10:03:08 <oerjan> well you can print fixed strings that way
10:03:35 <oerjan> well with wrapping cells
10:04:07 <oprz> oh
10:04:15 <oprz> i dont like brainfuck that much
10:04:33 <oprz> i like the PHP function used for parsing brainfuck code
10:04:36 <oprz> that is cool
10:04:45 * oerjan doesn't know PHP
10:05:09 <oerjan> but brainfuck is implemented in almost everything
10:05:40 <oprz> how do you mean
10:06:13 <oerjan> there are implementations in lots of languages.
10:06:33 <oprz> oh
10:06:51 <oerjan> it's so simple it's very easy to implement
10:07:04 <oprz> i think it is hard to implement
10:07:11 <oprz> but then again my brain is small
10:07:20 <oerjan> not compared to nearly any other languages
10:07:40 <oprz> whats the point of implementing another language into an existing language?
10:08:15 <oerjan> well you have to do it at least once to get the new language running at all :D
10:08:24 <oprz> guess
10:08:59 <oerjan> but most people do it as a programming exercise i think
10:09:35 <oerjan> we have a page on our wiki about esoteric languages implemented in each other
10:09:44 <oprz> cool
10:10:18 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/EsoInterpreters
10:14:30 <oprz> will look later got to go now
10:14:41 <oerjan> bye
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12:31:55 <ehird> hi!
12:38:37 <ski__> lo?
12:42:14 <ehird> hi.
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12:47:12 <ski__> [] ([] a -> a) -> [] a
12:48:10 <ehird> Quite so.
12:48:39 <ski__> .. but can you implement it ?
12:48:53 <ehird> Well, it's just [[a] -> a] -> [a].
12:49:11 <ehird> So, some fix magic there.
12:49:12 <ski__> well `[]' doesn't stand for "List", here
12:49:19 <ehird> ski__: What does it stand for?
12:49:30 <ski__> `[]' is supposed to look like the "box" character
12:49:43 <ski__> you can interpret `[]' as "Code", if you wish
12:49:50 <ehird> What is it? :p
12:50:34 <ski__> so, a value in `[] a' is an expression/code for a value in `a'
12:50:40 <ski__> consider things like
12:50:43 <ehird> Ah.
12:50:44 <ski__> eval :: [] a -> a
12:50:51 <ehird> Like (2+2) :: [] Integer?
12:51:00 <ehird> Or, well, you'd need a quoting char.
12:51:02 <ski__> no, `2+2' is an integer
12:51:03 <ski__> yes
12:51:04 <ehird> {2+2} :: [] Integer?
12:51:07 <ski__> like
12:51:12 <ski__> `(+ 2 2)
12:51:14 <ski__> in lisps
12:51:33 <ehird> Okay. so you pass it code that evaluates to a function that takes some code evaluating to type a and returns a value of type a.
12:51:42 <ehird> And it gives you some code evaluating to type a.
12:51:48 <ski__> (or `<2 + 2>' in MetaML .. i don't recall if MetaO'Caml had the same syntax there)
12:51:53 <ehird> {eval} works for the first argument.
12:52:04 <ehird> But what does it do?
12:52:18 <ski__> i'm not sure
12:52:27 <ski__> i'm trying to implement it to find out
12:52:38 <ski__> i have a proof of it in a book
12:52:55 <ski__> where `[]' is interpreted as "Provable"
12:52:58 <ehird> foo x = eval x $ foo x
12:53:03 <ehird> :-P
12:53:23 <ski__> the proof i've seen seems quite remniscent of
12:53:33 <ski__> ((lambda (u)
12:53:44 <ehird> Is foo x = eval x $ foo x not a valid definition?
12:53:48 <ski__> `(,u ',u))
12:53:53 <ski__> '(lambda (u)
12:53:56 <ski__> `(,u ',u)))
12:54:14 <ehird> ski__: foo x = eval x $ foo x
12:54:16 <ehird> wouldw ork, no?
12:54:17 <ski__> (if you squint the right way)
12:54:23 <ehird> err, actually
12:54:24 <ehird> it'd be
12:54:28 <ehird> foo x = {eval x $ foo x}
12:54:39 <ski__> hm
12:55:45 <ski__> i think that might often hang
12:56:09 <ski__> (that definition is basically the `loebF :: Functor f => f (f a -> a) -> f a', i think)
12:56:16 <ehird> Ha, loeb.
12:56:20 <ehird> ski__: But, certainly it would.
12:56:24 <ehird> It still meets the type.
12:56:27 <ski__> yes, Loeb's theorem
12:56:35 <ehird> Yes, I know
12:56:59 <ski__> however, i think if one implements it correctly, it would never hang (on defined inputs)
12:57:08 <MizardX> "`'´"
12:57:19 <ski__> (the logic in the book is supposed to be a consistent one ..)
12:57:56 <ski__> (MizardX : never seen nestable quotes before ?)
12:58:40 <ski__> (ehird : another strange thing is that `[] a -> a' is not generally provable in the logic (it would lead to contradiction))
12:59:03 <ehird> ski__: `' style quotes are pretty ugly :-P
12:59:05 <ehird> also, really? odd
12:59:18 <ehird> ski__: ah, goedel-y stuff?
13:00:34 <ski__> if `[] a -> a' is a theorem, then `[] ([] a -> a)' is also a theorem, and by loeb's theorem `[] ([] a -> a) -> [] a', we could then deduce that `[] a' is a theorem ..
13:00:58 <ehird> Therefore, the universe does not exist.
13:01:27 <ski__> .. so if we want the logic to be consistent, and want `[]' to really mean "provable", then for any false `a' we'd better not have a proof of `[] a -> a'
13:01:35 <ehird> Indeed.
13:01:39 <ehird> [] a -> Maybe a?
13:01:48 -!- ais523 has joined.
13:01:53 <ehird> Hi ais523.
13:01:54 <ais523> hi ehird
13:02:02 <ais523> you win, but not by much
13:03:48 <ski__> (.. in any case, i'm trying to implement it in haskell .. by defining a data type `[]' .. but the quoting is not obvious how to handle)
13:03:56 <ais523> whois ski__
13:03:59 <ais523> umm...
13:04:04 <ski__> ais523 : i'm me
13:04:06 <ehird> Defining a data type, [], might clash slightly :-P
13:04:12 <ais523> why is #esoteric getting so many new people nowadays?
13:04:17 <psygnisfive> ski__ is an AI build out of the ski combinatory calculus
13:04:20 <ais523> has esolanging accidentally become popular?
13:04:20 <ehird> ais523: I brought this one from #haskell <_<
13:04:22 <ski__> obviously i'm not calling it `[]' ! :)
13:04:46 <ehird> also, one of our newbies only came here by chance
13:04:53 * ski__ has visited here once or twice before ..
13:05:06 <ehird> hmm I think I may be mixing you up with someone else
13:05:06 <ehird> :)
13:05:16 <ais523> I'm worried that my INTERCAL evangelism may have gone too far...
13:05:38 <ehird> Grepping the logs for 'ski' is nontrivial
13:05:49 * ski__ bows
13:05:54 <ehird> 06.03.19:08:04:31 --- join: ski__ (n=slj@84-217-32-122.tn.glocalnet.net) joined #esoteric
13:06:23 <ehird> First occurance of "ski":
13:06:23 <ehird> 03.01.21:01:59:01 <fizzie> printed with a befunge prog or something? I recall seeing a sierpinski-triangle-printer once.
13:06:35 <ehird> (YY.MM.DD:HH:MM:SS, in case anyone didn't know)
13:07:29 <ais523> hmm... I keep hitting MichaelRaskin from #IRP
13:07:33 <fizzie> It was about one of dbc's printed-out ascii-art thingsies.
13:07:45 <ehird> The name Michael Raskin rings a bell.
13:07:53 <ehird> fizzie: wow, how can you remember that?
13:08:03 <fizzie> ehird: With the magic of 'grep'.
13:08:13 <fizzie> That is to say: I cheated.
13:08:25 <ehird> :-D
13:09:21 <ais523> well, ski__ and me have never been in the same channel at the same time before
13:09:24 <ais523> at least not while I'm on this client
13:09:33 <ais523> but that's not surprising, 2006 was before I got this laptop
13:09:59 <ehird> ais523: You only came in here 200
13:10:01 <ehird> 2007
13:10:07 <ehird> 07.01.15:09:15:34 --- join: ais523 (n=chatzill@chillingi.eee.bham.ac.uk) joined #esoteric
13:10:30 <ais523> ah, everyone loves CDE
13:10:37 <ais523> which is the desktop environment that old server was running
13:10:44 <ski__> yurgh
13:10:52 <ais523> via X forwarding to a terminal running on Windows
13:11:03 <ehird> You know, I think Windows would be preferable to that, ais523.
13:11:11 <ais523> ehird: it didn't have an IRC client
13:11:16 <ais523> and we weren't allowed to install executables
13:11:24 <ehird> Use a web-based one? :p
13:11:33 <ais523> besides, I did pretty much everything back then using xterm
13:11:40 <ais523> that way the desktop environment didn't really matter
13:11:45 <ais523> it's where I learnt the UNIX command line
13:14:41 <ehird> 09:45:05 <ais523> Yes, I'm enjoying esolangs. I enjoyed the logs, too, before I had access to an IRC client.
13:14:46 <ehird> you were a logreader before you ever came in
13:14:48 <ehird> Impressive.
13:14:55 <ais523> yes
13:14:59 <ais523> they were linked from the wiki
13:15:17 <ais523> took me a while to find an IRC client
13:15:24 <ais523> without installing any software
13:15:28 <ais523> or knowing about netcat/telnet
13:15:52 <ehird> How did you install firefox?
13:15:53 <ehird> err
13:15:54 <ehird> chatzilla
13:15:57 <ais523> I didn't
13:16:00 <ais523> it was there already
13:16:02 <ehird> Ah
13:16:11 <ehird> Bloatzilla, then, I assume
13:17:21 <ais523> it was a case of clicking on a irc:// link to see what happened
13:17:21 <ais523> and that was a really old version of Mozilla
13:17:21 <ais523> it did some really weird things
13:17:32 <ais523> (I blanked Talk:Main Page on Wikipedia by accident, once, for instance, and quite a lot of my edits introduced spurious line breaks. I stopped using Mozilla for Wikipedia when I noticed.)
13:21:46 * ehird complains about human bias on Talk:Main_Page
13:22:24 <ehird> Olol
13:22:24 <ehird> It's a "featured article" full of bilge. This is one of the few really reprehensible things about Wikipedia: that we have so many brilliant articles but we filter them in such a manner that the most ridiculous crap is designated as the best we have. It's pretty horrible. If you're involved in this bilious process, stop. If you're not, stay away from it. Write about what need to be written about , edit the articles that need to be edited, and avoid the pr
13:22:35 <ehird> Can Wikipedia pick a FA that won't be complained about?
13:22:41 <ehird> Is it physically possible?
13:22:50 -!- Hiato has joined.
13:23:35 <ehird> [[ I'm left with the urge to ask if wikipedia got paid for running this commercial. ]]
13:23:39 <ehird> Nobody's EVER done that before!
13:23:59 <ais523> ehird: I think there have been some FAs that haven't been complained about
13:24:06 <ais523> although I can't think of one offhan
13:24:10 <ais523> *offhand
13:27:26 <ski__> (cut off at "... and avoid the pr")
13:29:04 <ehird> ski__: you got the gist
13:29:35 <ski__> was it a quote or something you actually wrote just above ?
13:30:45 <ehird> quote
13:32:34 <fizzie> Wikipedia, request for discussion about the "Nasal Sex → Sexual intercourse" redirect: "Delete. Why would anyone search for nasal sex?" "While I don't wish to speculate the reason why, it was seached for 70 times in novemeber 2008 and 100 times in october."
13:33:22 <ehird> Hah
13:33:40 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasal_Sex
13:33:43 <ehird> Redirect fail
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14:22:59 <ehird> I entered here first 17 days before ais523 did:
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14:23:04 <ehird> But I didn't say anything.
14:23:09 <ehird> I only returned in 2007.
14:23:18 <ehird> 2007-05-14, to be precise.
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14:23:58 <ehird> 12:43:09 --- part: ehird left #esoteric
14:24:00 <ehird> That's some epic shyness.
14:26:00 <ehird> I should get a PhD in #esoteric Log Analysis.
14:27:44 <oklofok> so, like, i was at this lecture just now
14:27:48 <oklofok> and, like, there was this dude
14:27:51 <oklofok> in front of me
14:28:02 <oklofok> who was coding a function called parseDoubles in java
14:28:06 <oklofok> for two hours
14:28:20 <ais523> what were you doing?
14:28:36 <oklofok> well correcting it for two hours, at the end of the lecture, the code was red with errors
14:28:47 <ehird> :-D
14:28:48 <oklofok> err i was listening to the lecture and reading algebra
14:28:56 <oklofok> and watching him, silently lolling inside
14:29:16 <ais523> oklofok: "silently lolling" is a bit of an oxymoron...
14:29:28 <ehird> oklopol is an oxymoron
14:29:30 <oklofok> yeah, that was actually not intentional
14:29:32 <ehird> he breathes, and he's a moron
14:29:34 <ehird> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA
14:29:35 <ehird> <__<
14:29:37 <oklofok> xxxxxxxxxxxxD
14:30:00 <ehird> hahahaha that's the funniest joke I've made all year
14:30:06 <oklofok> ais523: also "silently xxxing inside" is the opposite of oxymoron
14:30:11 <oklofok> there's a term for it too right?
14:30:19 <ais523> ehird: your jokes are even worse than AnMaster's
14:30:30 <AnMaster> ?
14:30:32 <ais523> oklofok: I'm not entirely sure if it's the opposite
14:30:38 <ehird> 14:30 < ais523> ehird: your jokes are even worse than AnMaster's
14:30:38 <ehird> 14:30 < AnMaster> ?
14:30:41 <AnMaster> ah
14:30:44 <ehird> AnMaster is physically incapable of looking up one line
14:30:44 <AnMaster> actually
14:30:46 <AnMaster> that was funny
14:30:50 <ehird> :-P
14:31:04 <AnMaster> <ehird> oklopol is an oxymoron <-- I mean that one
14:31:05 <ais523> it looks like it's the same thing, a contradiction negated is still a contradiction...
14:31:09 <ais523> well, or a tautology
14:31:14 <ais523> depending on what sort of negating you use
14:32:08 <oklofok> ais523: "silently lol", silently do something out loud, contradictory; "silently ... inside", to do something silently, and not do it out loud, a tautology
14:32:23 <ais523> oklofok: oh, silently...inside is a redundancy
14:32:48 <oklofok> yes, but i'm pretty sure there's another term for when you do it in english
14:33:14 <oklofok> but still, was just pointing out it was doubly weirdly put.
14:34:32 <ehird> * SimonRC worships B.S.
14:34:43 <ehird> Actually referring to Bjrane Stroustrup, but they're equivalent.
14:36:04 <oklofok> what's wrong with bjarne?
14:36:14 <ehird> he invented C++
14:36:14 <oklofok> i agree with a lot of his writingz
14:36:18 <ehird> and thought it was good
14:36:33 <oklofok> yes, but he hates the parts that suck as much as everyone
14:36:42 <oklofok> at least according to cpl
14:36:52 <ehird> you mean like all of them?
14:36:52 <ehird> :D
14:37:01 <oklofok> :)
14:37:55 <oklofok> i don't consider it a bad language, just too low-level for my taste
14:38:57 <oklofok> :: (- "asdasdfasdfasdf" "aaa")
14:38:58 <oktabot> f
14:39:07 <oklofok> :: (* "asdasdfasdfasdf" 6)
14:39:07 <oktabot> asdasdfasdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdf
14:55:10 * ehird writes alphabet look and say in thue
14:55:12 <ehird> That was easy.
14:55:30 -!- asiekierk has joined.
14:55:31 <asiekierk> hi
14:55:32 <asiekierk> i'm back
14:55:33 <ais523> hi
14:55:36 <ais523> most of you is back
14:55:41 <asiekierk> Seems I will try out Chef :P
14:55:43 <ais523> the final a got missed somewhere along the line, though
14:55:48 <asiekierk> :P
14:55:49 <ais523> maybe oerjan has it
14:55:51 -!- asiekierk has changed nick to asiekierka.
14:55:55 <asiekierka> Maybe that's better
14:55:55 <ais523> he's good at finding missing letters from nicks
14:56:01 <asiekierka> is it?
14:56:04 <ais523> yes
14:56:12 <asiekierka> I had the "a" in my backpack
14:56:22 <asiekierka> Just pulled it out and scanned it, so i could send it IRC-wise to my nickname
14:57:16 <asiekierka> ouch
14:57:23 <asiekierka> anyway
14:57:37 <asiekierka> Yeah, I will try out Chef
14:57:41 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asiekierka[Cooki.
14:57:48 -!- asiekierka[Cooki has changed nick to asiekierkCooking.
14:58:02 <asiekierkCooking> Everyone that doesn't understand it please leave this chatroom
14:58:02 <ehird> oh joy.
14:58:10 <ehird> tempting.
14:58:11 -!- asiekierkCooking has changed nick to asiekierka.
14:58:19 <asiekierka> uh-oh, ehird is back
14:59:38 <ehird> I've been here all this time
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15:02:26 <ehird> Keymaker redesigned his site, I notice.
15:02:43 <ehird> It's just a directory index now.
15:02:52 <ehird> [http://yiap.nfshost.com/index.php]
15:07:22 <ehird> wolframtones is a fun timewaster
15:08:22 <ais523> wait, Encyclopedia Britannica is becoming a wiki?
15:08:28 <ais523> is this an April Fool's joke, I wonder?
15:08:30 <ehird> ... o.O
15:08:38 <ehird> Must be.
15:08:42 <ais523> but it isn't April
15:08:45 <ehird> Link?
15:08:59 <ais523> http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/biztech/battle-to-outgun-wikipedia-and-google/2009/01/22/1232471469973.html
15:09:04 <ais523> found via Slashdot
15:09:19 <ehird> keyword: its online version
15:09:22 <ehird> Not the printed one, I assume.
15:09:28 <ais523> yes, although probably they'll backport changes
15:09:34 <ais523> besides, it's almost impossible to run a printed wiki
15:09:35 <ehird> "If I were to be the CEO of Google or the founders of Google I would be very [displeased] that the best search engine in the world continues to provide as a first link, Wikipedia," he said."Is this the best they can do? Is this the best that [their] algorithm can do?"
15:09:43 <ais523> all those crossings-out and tippex build up after a while
15:09:44 <ehird> Because Wikipedia is bad because I said so
15:09:50 <ais523> and you can't fit all that many people around the book
15:10:31 <ais523> Citizendium-style, it seems, they haven't gone /completely/ against type
15:11:40 <ehird> Hmm.
15:11:50 <ehird> What would you call (x) from P'' in one uppercase letter?
15:11:53 <ehird> P for parens?
15:12:38 <ais523> hmm... I know P'' but not its notation
15:12:41 <ais523> what does (x) do again?
15:13:52 <ehird> R ( R ) L ( r' ( L ( L ) ) r' L ) R r
15:13:53 <ehird> =
15:13:56 <ehird> > [ > ] < [ − [ < [ < ] ] − < ] > +
15:14:00 <ehird> So, loop.
15:14:04 <ais523> ah, ok
15:14:10 <ais523> why do you need in one capital letter?
15:14:16 <ehird> Because. :P
15:14:19 <ais523> given that it's inherently a two-different-places operation?
15:14:30 <ehird> P seems most logical to me, for parens.
15:14:56 <ais523> in Underlambda it is (or will be) w for while, but that's a lowercase letter
15:17:01 <ehird> "will be"?
15:18:48 <ais523> ehird: it isn't properly specced yet
15:18:51 <ais523> pretty fluid
15:19:09 <ais523> I'm more interested in getting Underlambda right rather than having it ready quickly
15:19:43 <ehird> oh, underlambda
15:21:10 <ais523> my other big new esolang project, besides Feather
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15:49:47 <oklofok> O for lOOp
15:54:25 <ehird> run :: P -> State
15:54:27 <ehird> whee
15:55:26 <ehird> of course, no parsing, it's for a genetic algorithm
15:55:31 <ehird> see logs 07.05.17
15:55:50 <oklofok> no *you* see logs
15:57:45 <ehird> in P''
15:57:46 <ehird> r ≡ λR, r′ ≡ rn
15:57:48 <ehird> wtf does r' mean
15:57:49 <ehird> ?
15:57:50 <ehird> ais523?
15:57:53 <ehird> err
15:57:56 <ehird> that's r^n
15:57:59 <ehird> ie superscript
15:58:30 <ais523> it's the opposite of r
15:58:30 <ais523> r increments, r' decrements
15:58:41 <ais523> and you decrement by incrementing one less times than the max
15:58:44 <ais523> via overflow
15:59:07 <ehird> there is no max.
15:59:12 <ais523> yes there is
15:59:19 <ais523> P'' has a max value of n-1
15:59:23 <ehird> what is n
15:59:23 <ais523> n is normally set to 2, but can be set higher
15:59:29 <ais523> and it's a different lang for each value of n
15:59:37 <ehird> I was unaware
15:59:42 <ehird> I was going by infinite ints
15:59:59 <ehird> hm.
16:00:02 <ais523> ehird: as they can only be incremented, not decremented, bignum P'' would be kind-of pointless...
16:00:09 <ehird> I'll interpret P''_256
16:00:18 <oklofok> hmm
16:00:18 <ehird> actually, that's cheating
16:00:23 <oklofok> would it be entirely pointless?
16:00:25 <ais523> are you doing P'' because it's more mathematical-looking than BF?
16:00:33 <ais523> oklofok: ah, that's actually an interesting question
16:00:43 <ais523> I'm not at all sure now
16:00:44 <ehird> 16:00 < ais523> are you doing P'' because it's more mathematical-looking than BF?
16:00:44 <asiekierka> omg
16:00:47 <oklofok> i'm pretty sure yes, but i don't instantly see why it couldn't let you do at least something
16:00:47 <ehird> simpler to implement
16:00:50 <asiekierka> oh wait
16:00:52 <asiekierka> wrong channel
16:00:57 <ehird> run' :: State -> P -> State
16:00:58 <ehird> run' (t,h) R = (t, h+1)
16:00:58 <ehird> run' (t,h) L = (t',h')
16:00:58 <ehird> where t' = gTake h t ++ [(t !!! h) + 1] ++ gDrop h t
16:00:58 <ehird> h' = if h == 0 then 0 else h - 1
16:01:01 <ehird> run' s (C p q) = run' (run' s p) q
16:01:02 <ehird> run' (t,h) (P q)
16:01:05 <ehird> | (t !!! h) == 0 = (t,h)
16:01:07 <ehird> | otherwise = run' (run' (t,h) q) (P q)
16:01:08 <ais523> it would effectively be BF with a set-to-1 command rather than + and -
16:01:10 <ehird> 9-line P'' implementation
16:01:12 <ehird> (for bignums...)
16:01:26 <ais523> and what does !!! do/
16:01:35 <ehird> (!!!) = genericIndex
16:01:45 <ehird> Integral a=>[b]->a->b
16:01:49 <ais523> ah, nth element of a list
16:01:49 <ehird> i'm sure you can figure it out.
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16:01:57 <ais523> strange operator
16:01:57 <ehird> yes it's normally !!
16:01:59 <ehird> but that only takes Ints
16:02:01 <ehird> instead of Integers
16:02:05 <oklofok> it's (!!)
16:02:05 <ais523> oh, ok
16:02:05 <ehird> so finite tape
16:02:08 <ehird> oklofok: no
16:02:09 <ehird> it's (!!!).
16:02:13 <ehird> 16:02 < ehird> yes it's normally !!
16:02:15 <ehird> 16:02 < ehird> but that only takes Ints
16:02:15 <ehird> 16:02 < ehird> instead of Integers
16:02:15 <oklofok> ehird: it's essentially !!
16:02:17 <ehird> 16:02 < ehird> so finite tape
16:02:20 <ais523> why can't they just take anything of numeric type?
16:02:27 <ehird> ais523: because haskell has warts, too
16:02:35 <ais523> impossible, it should be fixed
16:02:44 <ais523> *integral type
16:02:46 <ehird> done, said, easier than
16:02:50 <ais523> indexing with floats is obviously silly
16:02:56 <ais523> when you're dealing with Haskell lists
16:03:01 <ais523> (less silly in other langs, it actually works in JS)
16:03:18 <oklofok> well does js have lists
16:03:26 <ais523> oklofok: it has arrays
16:03:29 <ais523> but they're basically just hash tables
16:03:34 <oklofok> yes, it have hashmaps
16:03:35 <ais523> you can put any junk you like in the subscript and it works
16:03:36 <oklofok> *has
16:03:52 <ais523> quite clever, really
16:03:55 <oklofok> yeah, that was more of a statement.
16:03:57 <oklofok> and no it's not
16:04:00 <ais523> there's no actual reason but efficiency to differ arrays and hashmaps
16:04:00 <ehird> if by clever you mean slow and hacky.
16:04:03 <oklofok> oklotalk generalizes it much better
16:04:06 <ehird> ais523: yes there is
16:04:09 <ehird> arrays don't have gaps.
16:04:30 <ais523> ehird: that's just an arbitrary restriction
16:04:30 <ehird> also, it fucks up iteration.
16:04:38 <ais523> and iteration still works just as well
16:04:44 <ehird> ais523: allowing arrays not to be an elephant is also an arbitrary restriction
16:04:49 <ehird> but it's part of the definition of arrays.
16:04:51 <oklofok> ais523: yes, that's arbitrary, but there are also things that are not arbitrary
16:05:01 <oklofok> like all merging, inserting and deleting
16:05:16 <oklofok> the behavior simply has to be different
16:05:18 <ais523> we should generalise those operations to hashmaps too
16:05:24 <ais523> a delete-adjust action, for instance
16:05:29 <oklofok> in fact hashmaps and functions are closer together than lists and hashmaps
16:05:54 <ais523> lists are different from arrays, though
16:06:03 <ais523> in that lists aren't really designed to be indexed
16:06:12 <ais523> and can be accessed from the start much more easily than from the end
16:06:37 <oklofok> ais523: that's *much* more arbitrary than the distinction ehird mentioned.
16:06:57 <ais523> not really
16:07:05 <ais523> for instance, when you delete from an array, which way do the elements shift?
16:07:07 <ais523> for a list it's obvious
16:07:18 <ehird> the end
16:07:19 <ais523> but it's not obvious that they should go left not right in an array, because they're symmetrical
16:07:21 <ehird> 16:07 < ehird> the end
16:07:22 <ehird> 16:07 < ais523> but it's not obvious th
16:07:23 <ehird> oops.
16:07:24 <ehird> ais523:
16:07:27 <ehird> Python calls its arrays lists.
16:07:29 <ehird> You are talking about LINKED lists
16:07:34 <ehird> Please be aware of the difference
16:07:35 <ais523> yes, and Lisp-like lists
16:07:42 <ehird> ... which are linked lists.
16:07:48 <ais523> yes
16:07:52 <ais523> they're more like binary trees than arrays
16:07:52 <oklofok> also called lists
16:07:57 <ehird> "list" != "linked list"
16:08:04 <oklofok> err well
16:08:06 <oklofok> ehird is correct
16:08:12 <ais523> ehird: well, if you insist on defining a list as an array of course they're the same
16:08:17 <ais523> IMO, Python naming here is just confusing
16:08:18 <oklofok> list should be used for arrays without the arrayish properties
16:08:24 <ehird> a list is a list.
16:09:03 <ais523> oklofok: I think I agree
16:09:10 <oklofok> i mean
16:09:16 <oklofok> arrays have a strongly typed feel to them
16:09:31 <ais523> also, I think lists and ring buffers are pretty similar
16:09:35 <ais523> whereas arrays and ring buffers aren't
16:10:01 <oklofok> hmm?
16:10:34 <ais523> you can imagine a list which somehow contains itself, at the end
16:10:44 <oklofok> this is more of a philosophy question of course, the terms aren't that standard
16:10:47 <ais523> yes
16:11:07 <ais523> I think the fundamental difference is that arrays are inherently linked to (positive/nonnegative) integers
16:11:09 <oklofok> well, they are standard in that many ppl have an opinion on what they obviously mean
16:11:10 <ais523> as a method of indexing
16:11:16 <ehird> so are lists
16:11:18 <oklofok> but those opinions don't always agree
16:11:21 <ais523> and deleting elements from an array isn't really an intuitive operation at all
16:11:26 <ais523> it doesn't fit arrays, really
16:11:26 <oklofok> yeah
16:11:27 <ehird> not linked lists though
16:11:29 <ais523> because it involves renumbering
16:11:38 <ais523> deleting from a list, though, does make sense
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16:13:09 <oklofok> oh, it's that late.
16:13:21 <oklofok> i need to start doing an unspecified thing ~
16:13:24 <oklofok> >
16:13:30 <ehird> lol
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16:34:54 <ehird> http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N64/squidvswhale.html
16:35:38 <ais523> does it answer 3 foxes vs. polar bear?
16:35:42 <ais523> I'll be wondering about that one for years, now
16:35:48 <ais523> and it would be inhumane to find out by experiment
16:35:52 <ehird> no
16:35:55 <ais523> also, it's unlikely to happen in the wild...
16:36:05 <ehird> it's nothing to do with squids v whales
16:36:43 <ais523> ok, then why the URL?
16:37:04 <ais523> unless a whale is a badly-configured web browser with no caching, and a squid is a sort of proxy, maybe?
16:37:19 <ehird> Beats me.
16:37:27 <ehird> I think squid vs whale is the name of the column.
16:37:41 <ais523> I like my explanation bette
16:37:43 <ais523> *better
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17:04:03 <ehird> "In fact, although I have not tested Safari 3.1, I am relatively certain it will not render properly in any released browser. "
17:04:07 <ehird> -- http://annevankesteren.nl/2009/01/moving-the-goalposts
17:09:22 <ais523> ehird: someone tried to design a page that wouldn't render?
17:09:34 <ais523> apart from that SHORTTAGS one we had in here a while back?
17:09:39 <ehird> ais523: clicking the link helps
17:09:50 <ais523> yes, but I prefer to do my internetting over IRC and email
17:10:04 <ehird> then you don't get context, that's your loss
17:10:16 <ehird> or, I could pipe lynx -dump into here
17:10:45 <asiekierka> hi
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18:03:44 -!- comex has changed nick to retarded_monkey.
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18:20:06 <ehird> Not notable enough to have a page. There are thousands of thousands books. A book must be very very notable to have a page(e.g. Bible, Quran, Dante's divine comedy etc etc).
18:20:12 <ehird> I wonder what this guy thinks of the Pokemon articles.
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19:17:45 <fizzie> Why would he mind those? There are less Pokemons than books.
19:18:54 <Slereah2> For now.
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19:33:49 <ehird> ping
19:33:52 <ehird> anyone home?
19:51:45 <oklofok> o
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20:43:59 <oerjan> <ehird> he breathes, and he's a moron
20:44:06 <oerjan> EHIRD MUST DIE
20:44:19 <oerjan> erm wait he's not here
20:45:57 <Deewiant> enjoy the silence while it lasts
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20:46:46 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
20:46:59 <oerjan> the silence of the lambdas
20:47:13 -!- retarded_monkey has changed nick to comex.
20:47:35 * oerjan wasn't going to say that but his finger decided to miss the s
20:50:02 <oerjan> <ais523> maybe oerjan has it
20:50:16 <oerjan> unlikely, my dialect drops final vowels all over the place
20:50:59 <oerjan> some of which may or may not be a's
20:51:35 <oerjan> s/all over the place/in infinitives/, really
20:53:13 -!- MigoMipo has left (?).
20:59:30 <oerjan> wait ais523 is not here either?
21:01:51 <oklofok> no one's here, maybe you should leave too.
21:02:02 <oerjan> :´(
21:02:33 <oklofok> i agree it's sad, but hey, you can't tell a goat to be sacrificed.
21:03:05 <oerjan> don't say that, it's remarkable what science can do
21:03:12 <oerjan> for science!
21:05:06 <oerjan> oh well, at least they weren
21:05:10 <oerjan> 't klined
21:05:20 <oklofok> for klines!
21:05:32 <oerjan> forklines!
21:05:52 <oklofok> xD
21:06:32 <oerjan> in deed
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21:24:55 <ehird> My fucking ISP is unable to maintain DNS servers
21:25:07 <ehird> *inable
21:25:16 <ehird> err maybe unable
21:26:03 -!- FireFly has joined.
21:27:42 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe time to enable a local dns server then?
21:27:50 <ehird> I'm using opendns.
21:27:57 <ehird> Even though it sucks too.
21:28:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I use a local recursive resolver.
21:28:25 <ehird> Aren't you special.
21:28:27 <AnMaster> that bypasses isp, no idea why that works
21:28:46 <AnMaster> I mean, why use opendns, when setting it up to query directly works just as well
21:29:07 <AnMaster> (tcpdump indicates it query root servers directly sometimes)
21:29:28 <ehird> Time to set up custom DNS server, maintain it [even though i really fucking don't want to bother with that], and do all this without access to DNS: days, weeks, who knows.
21:29:37 <ehird> Time to stick in the OpenDNS ip: 20 seconds.
21:29:43 <ehird> *IPs
21:31:40 <AnMaster> ehird, emerge bind; emacs /etc/namedb/named.conf; /etc/init.d/named start
21:31:49 <AnMaster> emacs /etc/resolve.conf
21:31:51 <AnMaster> done
21:31:58 <AnMaster> err
21:32:00 <AnMaster> emacs /etc/resolv.conf
21:32:01 <AnMaster> even
21:32:16 <ehird> "emerge bind"
21:32:17 <ehird> 6 hours
21:32:24 <ehird> "emacs /etc/namedb/named.conf"
21:32:27 <ehird> Is interrupted by
21:32:35 <ehird> "kill yourself for wasting so much fucking time"
21:32:38 <ehird> and the process stops there.
21:35:13 <AnMaster> <ehird> "emerge bind" <-- genlop (a tool analyzing emerge.log) says average merge time was 7 minutes and 23 seconds for bind on my system
21:35:35 <AnMaster> ehird, also why in such a hurry?
21:37:02 <ehird> because I'd rather put in the OpenDNS IPs in 20 seconds than wait hours compiling and configuring BIND for ABSOLUTELY NO GAIN WHATSOEVER other than a weird form of nerd mental masturbation?
21:37:17 <ehird> also, good fucking luck installing + configuring bind without any DNS
21:37:31 <ehird> won't start? oh snap good luck finding out why!
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21:39:09 <AnMaster> ehird, well, you could just use host to query root servers directly
21:39:20 <AnMaster> or you could use some existing dns server you have installed
21:39:28 <AnMaster> if you have any
21:39:31 <ehird> Yes, everyone has a DNS server installed.
21:39:45 <ehird> AnMaster: now WHY would I do this over putting in the opendns IPs until my ISP gets its act together?
21:39:49 <AnMaster> ehird, well since OS X is based on *BSD I would assume so. bind is part of FreeBSD base
21:39:56 <ehird> Wow, I'd be a few hours without annoying search pages on invalid resolves
21:40:08 <ehird> Except I'd have wasted many more hours getting it working. What fun.
21:40:25 <AnMaster> ehird, it takes less than 30 minutes for me to set it up
21:40:50 <AnMaster> also there is dns over irc while you set it up: asking friends (like me) to resolve the domain for you
21:40:52 <ehird> And it takes me less than 30 seconds to put the OpenDNS IPs in.
21:40:52 <AnMaster> ;P
21:41:10 <ehird> "friends (like me)" hahahah. And I couldn't connect to freenode, duh.
21:41:19 <AnMaster> ehird, well if you don't want it, fine, however it is useful even during normal operation
21:41:24 <ehird> Uh huh.
21:41:34 <ehird> Yes, I daily wish I ran my own DNS server.
21:41:34 <AnMaster> faster dns since it caches more locally
21:41:36 <ehird> Not
21:41:39 <AnMaster> afk
21:42:06 <ehird> 12:44:06 <oerjan> EHIRD MUST DIE
21:42:06 <ehird> 12:44:19 <oerjan> erm wait he's not here
21:42:06 <ehird> 12:45:57 <Deewiant> enjoy the silence while it lasts
21:42:07 <ehird> Harsh
21:43:42 <AnMaster> :D
21:43:45 <AnMaster> (back)
21:44:13 <ehird> just
21:44:15 <ehird> because
21:44:15 <ehird> I
21:44:15 <ehird> use
21:44:15 <ehird> a
21:44:18 <ehird> new
21:44:21 <ehird> line
21:44:23 <ehird> as
21:44:26 <ehird> punctuation
21:44:28 <ehird> doesn't
21:44:31 <ehird> mean
21:44:34 <ehird> I
21:44:35 <ehird> should
21:44:38 <ehird> be
21:44:41 <ehird> discriminated
21:44:43 <ehird> against.
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22:00:46 -!- pikhq has joined.
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22:15:11 <oerjan> ehird: yeseitedoesebuteitecouldebeeworse
22:16:41 <ehird> bee
22:17:00 <oerjan> wildebeest
22:17:09 <ehird> Wild E Bee St.
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22:17:55 <Slereah2> http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/d/de/Dancing_cats.gif
22:17:59 <Slereah2> DERP DERP
22:18:15 <ehird> I clicked and saw a cat but it was stationary.
22:18:19 <ehird> Can I have my money back?
22:18:36 <Slereah2> It is not, ehird
22:18:39 <Slereah2> It moves!
22:18:45 <oerjan> many people would like cats on their stationary
22:19:15 <ehird> Slereah2: my browser hates you :(
22:19:29 * oerjan wonders if he is thinking of the right word
22:20:37 <oerjan> oh it's spelled stationery
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22:50:21 <kerlo> In.Lojban,.you.can.use.dots.to.separate.words.
22:50:36 <kerlo> But--that--indicates--that--you--pronounce--it--like--this.
22:51:14 <oklofok> ",." is interesting
22:51:27 <oklofok> although i guess that's just "."
22:51:35 <oklofok> i'm no phonetician
22:52:20 <kerlo> Well, it can affect the prosody of the preceding word.
22:52:52 <kerlo> "My.uncle,.Jack" and "My.uncle.Jack" are different.
22:55:54 -!- Max_D has joined.
22:56:05 * Max_D blah
23:03:52 <oklofok> kerlo: err maybe in english. not in lojban
23:03:56 <oklofok> not that i know what prosody is.
23:04:07 <oklofok> i'm assuming it's something that makes what i said true.
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23:04:43 * kerlo nods
23:05:11 <kerlo> Prosody is the part of speech that you can't express with a list of words.
23:05:51 <oklofok> right.
23:06:18 <oklofok> o
23:06:18 <oklofok> o
23:06:19 <oklofok> o
23:06:19 <oklofok> o
23:06:19 <oklofok> o
23:06:19 <oklofok> o
23:06:21 <oklofok> o
23:06:23 <oklofok> o
23:06:25 <oklofok> ->
23:06:59 <kerlo> That is a very good example of a sentence consisting virtually entirely of prosody.
23:08:16 <oerjan> yeah right
23:08:22 * Max_D is confused
23:08:37 <kerlo> Had that that had that had had that that had had that had that that had, I would have had that.
23:09:05 <kerlo> Now I will tell you the grammar of the above sentence for make benefit.
23:09:08 * oerjan is confused
23:09:20 <oklofok> why would you ruin a good puzzle for us
23:09:35 <oerjan> because he's EVIL, duh
23:09:55 <oklofok> had that "that" had that "had had" that that "had had" had that that had, i would have had that
23:09:59 <oklofok> is a parsing at least
23:10:12 <oklofok> hmm
23:10:21 <oklofok> i'm not sure that actually helped you see what parsing i meant ;)
23:11:20 <oerjan> had that bad hat that that that had had that bat had that hat hat
23:11:41 <kerlo> <noun phrase> ::= that <verb phrase>; <noun phrase> ::= that that <verb phrase>; <verb phrase> ::= had <noun phrase>; <verb phrase> ::= had had <noun phrase>; <sentence> ::= had <noun phrase> <verb phrase>, I would have had that.
23:11:51 <kerlo> That's the grammar of the above sentence.
23:11:58 <kerlo> Unfortunately, it's still an ambiguous grammar.
23:12:10 <oklofok> mmkay.
23:12:13 <oklofok> i don't get it
23:12:26 <kerlo> Also, I'm wrong in that sentences of the form "I like that had had ice cream." aren't actually valid.
23:12:27 <oklofok> how bout you put some parens in
23:12:41 * Max_D is bored... yay!
23:12:49 <kerlo> Okay, I'll put parentheses in according to my incorrect grammar.
23:12:54 <oerjan> what what that that what that that what that that what that what would that what?
23:12:55 <oklofok> kerlo: yes please
23:13:32 <kerlo> (had (that that (had (that (had had (that that (had had (that (had (that that had)))))))))), I would have had that.
23:14:10 <kerlo> I don't really feel like coming up with a better grammar.
23:14:14 <ehird> +++++++++6+++
23:14:16 <ehird> +++51
23:14:17 <ehird> .023
23:14:17 <ehird> .
23:14:30 <oklofok> i don't understand how a sentence can have its own grammar
23:14:41 <oklofok> oooooooooooooo
23:14:42 <oklofok> oooooooooooooooooo
23:14:49 <kerlo> It can't; that's a really tiny segment of English grammar that's sufficient for this sentence.
23:14:55 <oklofok> ehird: looks familiar
23:15:25 <oklofok> that's valid... what's the language again
23:15:29 <oklofok> is that intentional?
23:15:31 <oerjan> that that that that that that that that that that that refers to refers to refers to refers to nothing
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23:24:11 <ehird> oklofok: should be intentional; isn't
23:25:23 <oerjan> should should be intentional isn't isn't intentional
23:27:16 <oklofok> ehird: wait actually, nm, there's no "+" instruction in the lang i'm thinking of. but, the structure looks the same
23:40:20 <ehird> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/pacificnw/2008177548_pacificpendgame14.html
23:43:19 <ehird> he totally lost the game lol get it
23:44:12 <oklofok> xD
23:44:13 <oklofok> sleep
23:44:15 <oklofok> ->
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