00:03:57 back 00:04:36 so guys how is backwards land 00:04:47 its wonderful! 00:04:49 oh uh.. i mean 00:04:57 lufrednow sti! 00:05:01 wait did that not reverse properly 00:05:01 :( 00:05:29 test 00:05:32 that work? 00:05:46 no 00:05:49 :< 00:06:02 unless you were trying to write "tset" 00:06:05 but backwards 00:06:11 in which case, it worked 00:06:14 lol 00:06:36 :P 00:07:27 reminds me of that xkcd comic 00:07:42 where the text was mirrored and upside down or something 00:07:51 and it says "wanna annoy the hell out of our readers" 00:07:56 and i'm like what the fuck is the joke 00:08:08 what was the joke? 00:08:11 the joke is 00:08:12 YOU 00:08:14 lamamoa 00:08:15 :o 00:08:29 psygnisfive: well supposedly some people can't read mirrored text :| 00:08:37 "lamamoa" = lame samoa? 00:08:42 ‮hello world 00:08:44 samoan llama? 00:09:37 the hello world program, and a (slightly restricted) cat program, are easily some of the simplest programs in my wip language :O 00:09:39 ‮so gentlemen, how are you today? Are you enjoying the amazing thing known as backwards? 00:09:43 isn't this awsum 00:09:55 sure 00:10:06 -->‮<-- 00:10:13 copy 00:10:16 then type between the arrows 00:10:19 then deplete arrows. 00:10:29 --> so easy a green could do it<-- 00:10:32 hmm that broke 00:10:39 ‮OH WELL 00:10:53 did you use the rtl unicode char? 00:11:07 -!- jix_ has joined. 00:11:17 no, I used black magic 00:11:19 dumbass 00:11:23 :| 00:11:24 :-| 00:11:27 :-Q 00:11:29 black magic?! 00:11:32 yes. 00:11:32 GASP 00:11:35 also, green magic. 00:11:47 green magic is the magic of environmentalists 00:11:51 also, purple magic. 00:12:03 they use all natural biodegradable materials to cast spells 00:23:25 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:35:03 -!- jix_ has quit ("..."). 00:51:17 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out). 01:06:02 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:07:30 -!- Corun has changed nick to MateyHuber. 01:14:37 so one of my professors is in a russian music video... 01:25:17 -!- MateyHuber has changed nick to Corun. 03:35:15 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 04:47:39 * bsmntbombgirl is reading _Understanding the Linux Kernel_ 06:02:08 -!- Sgeo_ has quit ("Leaving"). 06:12:33 -!- Dewio has joined. 06:25:27 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 07:36:42 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:13:55 -!- Mony has joined. 08:17:34 plop 09:20:34 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 09:30:23 -!- asiekierka has joined. 09:30:26 Boom! 09:30:54 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) #esoteric comics to be made soon; watch what you say. 09:31:50 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) #esoteric comics to be made soon; watch what you say g) bring back the bots plz. 09:33:25 h) the letter h 09:35:02 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) #esoteric comics to be made soon; watch what you say g) bring back the bots plz h) the letter h. 09:35:25 -!- Slereah2 has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) #esoteric comics to be made soon; watch what you say g) bring back the bots plz h) the letter h j) there is no i. 09:37:07 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) #esoteric comics to be made soon; watch what you say g) bring back the bots plz h) the letter h j) there is no eye. 09:37:28 :D 09:38:00 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) #esoteric comics to be made soon; watch what you say g) bring back the bots plz h) the letter h j) there is no eye z) Let's skip to ASCII char 42, shall we? :D. 09:38:15 can you tell me something about the esoteric comics ? 09:38:45 i can't 09:38:47 until i make one 09:39:00 -!- Slereah2 has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) #esoteric comics to be made soon; watch what you say g) bring back the bots plz h) the letter h j) there is no eye z) Let's skip to ASCII char 42, shall we? :D {) beep boop. 09:39:14 lol, ok :) 09:43:07 http://www.stripcreator.com/comics/asiekierka/453254 09:43:34 This is terrible 09:44:48 -!- Corun has joined. 09:45:00 tiens, un sélérat ! :o 09:45:10 scélérat* 09:46:23 yeah 09:49:02 Slereah2: What did you expect? 09:49:04 A "Screeble"? 09:49:08 They're way worse 09:49:35 Mony: what does that mean 09:51:07 it's a french word, Slereah and scélérat sound like the same words 09:51:29 scélérat = wicked 09:53:03 oh 09:53:12 Okay, so should i make more of these 09:53:14 change the method 09:53:15 or wut 09:53:49 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:54:02 slereah came back 09:54:24 asiekierka, maybe you can make the comic from scratch 09:54:34 Yes, that's me alright 09:58:08 Mony: ... 09:58:10 ...!!! 09:58:30 ok, but then it'll be total crap 09:58:37 and my writing will be undecipherale 09:58:44 undecipherable* 09:59:00 wait, i don't understand that word 09:59:13 ah ok 09:59:46 http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles/img/comic/28.JPG 10:00:02 http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles/img/comic/32.JPG 10:00:08 you can keep on using stripcreator, and when the comic book is ended, you can modify it with paint or what you want 10:00:25 nope, it'll be also crapfestic quality 10:00:29 http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles/img/comic/25.JPG 10:00:40 http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles/img/comic/23.JPG 10:00:45 that's about all i want to show you 10:01:36 the better ones of my comics 10:01:51 also, what's wrong with stripcreator? 10:03:16 stripcreator seems to be good, but i don't like so much the characters' faces 10:03:54 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:04:30 i just like the selection personally 10:06:00 Mony: Ok, but do you prefer my Screebles, then? 10:07:35 I don't know, the Screebles (28 and 32) have something dirty (except the 25 and 23, there're good :)) 10:08:37 Smudges from the pen mostly 10:08:42 25 was a testcard 10:08:55 i must reproduce it, make it a vector image and use it 10:09:09 yep 10:09:27 I doubt I still have the original 10:09:30 But oh well 10:12:28 I ever wanted to make my own comic or cartoon 10:12:48 get a scanner, get a pen and let your imagination fly! 10:12:53 *chorus* FFLLYYYY!!! 10:13:11 something like 8bit NES game, with bigs pixels and chiptune music 10:13:26 Make your own sprites then 10:13:29 and make a sprite comic 10:13:32 yeah 10:15:53 maybe i can make moving the sprite, scroll the background, etc 10:16:04 Use FLASH! 10:16:09 *flash* 10:16:21 it can be pretty cool 10:17:15 yeah, i used to make some flash animations 10:17:44 -!- oklopol has joined. 10:19:50 ok 10:19:54 making the testcard 10:20:00 this time with greater precision 10:20:08 and there will be both b&w and color versions 10:22:13 ok, made the lower left corner 10:23:57 made the upper right corner, too 10:26:50 lower right corner also done 10:28:06 all corners done 10:28:10 and the <1000hz> too 10:32:13 ok 10:32:16 made the first scan 10:32:21 looks pretty well 10:32:39 minus a few fixable errors 10:40:35 nearly done! 10:40:46 -!- Hiato has joined. 10:41:09 Testcard aA1: 90% 10:45:17 Testcard aA1: 100%, scanning 10:47:20 done! 10:52:31 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 10:54:15 woohoo 10:54:16 i did it 10:54:18 uploading in a moment 10:55:03 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 10:55:44 -!- Hiato has joined. 10:56:13 http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/aa1_template_color.PNG 10:56:20 don't use it except if i allow you 10:56:50 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 10:57:09 -!- Hiato has joined. 11:02:04 -!- asiekierka has quit. 11:30:01 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:34:25 -!- Corun has joined. 11:51:07 -!- Mony has quit ("reboot"). 11:56:24 -!- Mony has joined. 12:17:36 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 12:25:58 -!- FireyFly has joined. 12:26:07 -!- FireFly has quit (Nick collision from services.). 12:26:12 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 12:48:12 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:50:27 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:58:22 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 13:11:42 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:12:15 -!- Hiato has joined. 13:15:57 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 13:36:34 -!- kar8nga has joined. 14:14:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:27:20 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:32:37 oh jesus, fucking asiekierka fucked with the topic again 14:32:48 has he figured out that it's irritating yet 14:33:21 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 14:34:53 -!- Hiato has joined. 14:35:22 don't use it except if i allow you 14:35:32 Does this count as a formal licensing, or can I use it blatantly? 14:35:39 I think the latter. 14:37:15 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 14:45:33 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 14:59:01 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:05:18 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 15:09:28 -!- olsner has joined. 15:32:15 I don't think you have enough coins to buy 50 VP... 15:32:42 sorry, wrong channel 15:33:48 lol 15:45:15 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:45:20 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:07:20 oooo 16:07:44 ko 16:43:07 i think i know how im going to add types to my language :o 16:43:19 ehird! you once said you wished haskell had first class types, or something. what did you mean? 16:43:26 dependent types 16:43:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("bye"). 16:43:41 type language = code language, turing complete compilation (has its downsides ... like non-terminating compilations ... ) 16:43:47 e.g. you can strongly type printf 16:44:20 can you give me a more detailed example? im not sure what a dependent type would be 16:44:43 also, doesnt C++ or something have require TC compilation due to its type system? x.x 16:44:44 dependent types is just the theoretical term 16:44:48 psygnisfive: here's a concrete example 16:44:50 or TC parsing or whatever 16:45:00 sec 16:45:13 psygnisfive: http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~augustss/cayenne/examples.html Scroll to the vey bottom 16:45:15 heading "Printf" 16:45:21 that's a strongly typed printf 16:45:31 you can probably get the gist of how it fits in with what i've said 16:47:20 ok 16:47:41 basically, it's calling a function in the type system there 16:47:50 which varies printf's type depending on what string you feed it 16:48:04 (yes, it breaks down if you e.g. feed it user input, you have to offer proofs that its' gonna be a certain type then) 16:48:13 ok 16:51:20 does it make sense to you? :P 17:16:25 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:16:27 hi 17:16:35 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) fake. 17:16:43 Stop. 17:16:45 Messing. 17:16:45 With. 17:16:46 The 17:16:48 Topic 17:16:50 In 17:16:52 But it's OFFENSIVE to me 17:16:52 Unfunny 17:16:54 Ways 17:16:56 Goddamn 17:17:02 Oh noes, offensive words 17:17:03 it's OFFENSIVE to me 17:17:10 OFFENSIVEOFFENSIVEOFFENSIVEOFFENSIVE 17:17:29 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:17:32 oh no offensivity 17:17:49 oh my god is there something offensive on irc 17:17:58 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) stfu ehird. 17:17:58 i know 17:17:59 it's awful 17:18:08 asiekierka telling me to stfu? 17:18:10 L O L 17:18:21 L O L 17:18:25 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:18:25 gay sex... oh dear god i can't take it anymore 17:18:27 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 17:18:31 lol 17:18:59 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) stands for "freak". 17:19:08 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:19:11 -!- Slereah has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) stands for "freak" g) THE GAME. 17:19:12 I can do this all day. 17:19:13 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:19:22 -!- Slereah has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally. g) THE GAME. 17:19:27 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:19:35 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) asiekierka is an idiot that sucks so much he doesn't even deserve being in the freaking topic g) THE GAME i) there is no h. 17:19:42 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:19:54 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) asiekierka is an idiot that sucks so much he doesn't even deserve being in the freaking topic g) THE GAME i) there is no h. 17:20:05 one more and i change that to ehird 17:20:07 asiekierka: You know, most who hate themselves that much just cut themselves. 17:20:19 That would be a lot less annoying for me, to boot. 17:20:21 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:20:33 :( 17:20:42 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) ehird is a super-lame super-bad idiot that sucks so much he doesn't even deserve being in the freaking topic g) THE GAME i) there is no h. 17:20:59 I think I'll make bsmnt_bot set the topic for me. 17:21:00 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:21:03 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) ehird is a super-lame super-bad idiot that sucks so much he doesn't even deserve editing this freaking topic g) THE GAME i) there is no h. 17:21:10 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:21:27 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) ehird is a super-lame super-bad idiot that sucks so much he doesn't even deserve editing this freaking topic g) nor does bsmnt_bot h) THE GAME j) there is no i. 17:21:38 :) 17:21:38 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:21:49 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) no messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) ehird is a super-lame super-bad idiot that sucks so much he doesn't even deserve editing this freaking topic g) nor does bsmnt_bot h) THE GAME j) there is no i. 17:21:56 Remember when asiekierka did anything interesting esolang-related? No, me neither. 17:21:57 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:22:03 yes i did 17:22:08 -!- asiekierka has set topic. 17:22:09 Uh huh. 17:22:12 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:22:18 -!- asiekierka has set topic: ehird sux. 17:22:22 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:22:37 -!- asiekierka has set topic: all your topic are belong to asiekierka. 17:22:40 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:22:58 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) g. occasionally.. 17:23:09 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:23:15 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) x. occasionally.. 17:23:21 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:23:29 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gxscc for the wi9n. 17:23:40 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:23:49 -!- asiekierka has set topic: 3.14. 17:24:07 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:24:14 Hey, remember when asiekierka spammed? 17:24:16 Yep, me too. 17:24:30 -!- asiekierka has set topic: What about we leave the topic alone now and be friends? ...please?. 17:24:42 Yep, me too. 17:24:44 Hrm. 17:24:46 Wrong up-scroll. 17:24:48 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:24:50 Yes. 17:24:53 We can leave the topic alone now. 17:24:53 -!- asiekierka has set topic: I said something!. 17:25:05 Oh, you're breaking your own truce. 17:25:08 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:25:23 -!- asiekierka has set topic: What about we leave the topic alone AT THIS POINT WITHOUT EVER EDITING IT and be friends? ...please?. 17:25:37 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:25:38 Nah. 17:25:40 -!- Slereah has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. 17:26:20 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:29:57 -!- asiekierka has set topic: What about we leave the topic alone AT THIS POINT WITHOUT EVER EDITING IT and be friends? ...please? Please? Anyone who edits this topic is an idiot.. 17:30:03 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:34:12 -!- asiekierka has set topic: please stop. now.. 17:34:22 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:34:28 How about you? You changed it initially. 17:34:43 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) *** ***. occasionally.. 17:34:48 that's it 17:34:50 stop here 17:34:52 How about you? You changed it initially. 17:34:53 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:34:58 because it offended me 17:35:06 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) ehi rd!. occasionally.. 17:35:06 This offends me. 17:35:09 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:35:19 -!- asiekierka has set topic: CoinTalesQ. 17:35:28 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:35:43 -!- Mony has set topic: STOP PLAYING WITH THE TOPIC !! è_é. 17:35:47 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:35:51 -!- asiekierka has set topic: ,[.,] input:"ehird sucks". 17:35:55 Mony: asiekierka is messing with it, i am setting it back. 17:35:56 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:36:00 he'll get tired eventually. 17:36:07 Mony: ehird's setting back OFFENDS ME 17:36:09 the f) offends me 17:36:17 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) you want my father to see that?. 17:36:24 Tch. If only you weren't so annoying all the time I might have some sympathy. 17:36:40 you're just like stonecypher 17:36:43 another idiot 17:36:50 ironic. 17:36:51 maybe if you had a life 17:36:53 you would understand 17:36:55 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 17:36:56 -!- asiekierka has left (?). 17:37:03 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:37:11 Bye. Oh wait, you're bacj 17:37:14 *back 17:37:22 bweep 17:37:24 error 17:37:25 offen 17:37:27 ding 17:37:28 data 17:37:29 found 17:37:31 -!- asiekierka has left (?). 17:37:36 Hooray. 17:37:51 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:37:54 Oh no. 17:37:59 Oh yes 17:38:08 Your "leaving FOREVER"s are remarkably short. 17:38:24 i didn't say i leave forever 17:38:29 cite where am i leaving forever 17:38:43 Hopefulness. 17:44:02 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 17:55:20 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:24:43 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:24:51 -!- puzzlet has joined. 18:34:23 -!- asiekierka has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game;. 18:34:24 -!- asiekierka has left (?). 18:37:11 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.. 18:40:05 omg 18:40:07 "I used to be a KDE user. I thought KDE 4.0 was such a disaster I switched to GNOME" 18:40:09 -linus 18:40:14 world 18:40:16 crashing 18:40:19 around 18:40:20 me 18:47:04 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 18:58:39 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:58:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:04:16 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:04:24 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:05:11 -!- Corun has joined. 19:22:01 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:27:17 ehird: i remember more of asiekierka's esolang related stuff than yours, but, umm, maybe it's just my memory :P 19:27:34 i said interesting 19:28:38 oh, you did? 19:28:41 * oklopol rereads 19:28:53 ah! 19:29:34 then scratch my comment 19:32:31 lifthrasiir: do you like pudding? 19:36:43 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:36:50 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:40:56 "What's ironic got to do with Alanis Morisette?!: 19:40:59 -reddit 19:41:10 s/:$/"/ 19:43:23 It's sort of like rain on your wedding day. 19:44:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:51:32 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 19:54:09 ~> 19:54:10 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 19:57:45 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 19:57:45 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:59:58 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:00:05 -!- puzzlet has joined. 20:06:53 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 20:08:47 -!- Corun has joined. 20:10:12 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 20:54:44 -!- ktne has joined. 20:54:49 hello 20:54:56 can i ask some language design questions here? 20:55:13 i'm designing my own language and i have some issues to solve 21:31:02 ktne: Well, if the language is esoteric... :-> 21:31:09 :) 21:31:19 well my main issue is performance 21:31:29 i would like a prototype based language 21:31:36 but with C-like performance 21:31:43 and i was wondering how that could be done 21:32:24 ktne: Well, usually esoteric languages don't care about performance... 21:32:26 i was wondering if a Seal method on objects, this would block all further structure changes, if that would be fine 21:32:46 that way the structure could be guaranteed and optimizations done 21:32:48 hmm 21:34:35 well my language is not that esoteric 21:34:45 other than i plan each statement to be in a custom micro-language 21:35:02 one would be a raw lisp form-like 21:35:09 other formats could be made available 21:36:44 { statement;statement;statement} 21:37:04 each statement could be in a different micro language, such as SQL-like, LISP-like, etc 21:37:36 there would be a number of such microlanguages, optimized for common usages 21:37:50 like reges text processing and such 21:37:54 *regex 21:41:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("bye"). 21:41:57 ktne: Regexes with nondeterminate backreference operator (match anything that subexpression could match)? That can be defined to work in case where those backrefs refer to subexpression those are in... :-> 21:43:25 ktne: With that sort of extension, stuff like E-mail address syntax becomes expressable. 21:45:25 ktne: Example: '(|\(<1>\)|<1><1>)'. There is no equivalent regular expression with only standard operators (Kleene closure, alternatives and concatenation)... 21:45:58 well i was thinking about customizable regex character classes 21:46:24 for example you could have class 'c' that would match against any object that implements let's say interface Car 21:46:36 then you could match all Car objects in a collection 21:47:47 therefore text matching would be just a subset of all possible uses, the cases where an object matches if it's a Char with a specific value 21:48:05 i'm not sure if i put it in a clear way :) 21:48:09 hi. 21:48:11 ktne: Matching on sequence of values? 21:48:18 yes 21:48:32 matching against any stream of objects 21:48:42 and text would be a subcase 21:49:05 ktne: so what brings ya here 21:49:07 for example matching against an XML parse tree 21:49:22 hi ehird 21:49:39 ktne: Don't you need something more powerful than regexps there? 21:50:08 Ilari: well, it depends on how you define your custom classes 21:50:42 also the tree would have to be flattened in a stream first obviously, maybe using a custom tree walking algorithm 21:50:43 ktne: Well, with that sort of backreference operator as I shown, it should be powerful enough... 21:51:22 well you could implement any sort of operator i guess 21:51:42 since the whole regex engine could be programmed 21:52:04 The challenge is to choose operators that are powerful but don't seriously blow up the execution time in common cases... 21:52:07 soooooooooooooooooooooooooo 21:52:09 what brought you here 21:52:11 :) 21:52:13 ehird: but my questions are related mainly to performance :) 21:52:27 okay. Well that's sort of esoteric 21:52:32 how to achieve C-like performance in a language without classes 21:52:45 prototype OOP 21:52:53 * ehird 's pet in-head project for a while has been to make a scheme implementation that's competitive with C 21:53:04 hmm 21:53:08 but is that possible? 21:53:10 which you could probably build a prototype OO system on top of without too much overhead 21:53:12 ktne: "maybe" 21:53:17 at least i'm willing to accept language limitation 21:53:19 limitations 21:53:28 i'm not sure if scheme has the right semantics to allow that 21:53:38 SBCL--a common lisp compiler--is competitive with C, iirc, but of course CL is far less lenient than Scheme 21:53:44 you can't redefine + in CL... :-) 21:53:55 i think it boils down to having really efficient function calls 21:53:56 ehird: no overhead means for me c++-like performance 21:54:14 why so interested in performance, anyhoo? 21:54:16 yes but how do you dispatch them if the object structure is dynamic 21:54:22 wanna write an OS? :p 21:54:38 no, i'm more interested in an alternative to matlab and mathematica 21:54:41 also, well, with Scheme you have to dynamically look up everything 21:54:46 because they are so incredibly slow... :( 21:54:52 ktne: And if you do SQL, allow possibility for parametrized queries (and make them relatively _easy_), since nonparametrized ones can easily turn into security nightmares... 21:54:54 so having an object would be no overhead 21:54:59 ew, don't do SQL :( 21:55:14 ehird: i said that each statement could be in a microlanguage 21:55:18 ah 21:55:32 I don't think that would be very helpful 21:55:37 ehird: with several microlanguages for common usages, like text procesing, collection operations (like sql), etc 21:55:47 and a raw lisp-form one 21:55:49 "I want to embed an entirely different language without any markets into this program" is no common thought of mine 21:55:58 s/markets/markers/ 21:56:12 well i was thinking about some guesswork in the parser 21:56:20 and some marker to make things sure when ambigous 21:56:46 i was thinking about using \sql or \regex as markers 21:56:59 sort of macro call :) 21:57:28 but this would be just syntax sugar 21:57:41 I rather embed other languages into the one I'm working in instead of just having them there literally. 21:57:46 This falls down for regexs, tho. 21:57:47 i'm designing the semantics right now, the object layout and the function call standard 21:58:06 so how did you find this place then? :) 21:58:12 btw our wiki is at http://esolangs.org/ 21:58:18 guess I can add that to our sprawling topic 21:58:25 i was here a few times before :) 21:58:34 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/. 21:58:35 ok :) 21:58:37 i think i was designing some concatenative language back then 21:58:44 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. 21:58:56 * ehird greps 2002-present logs for you 21:59:01 but now i'm thinking about something more classical, something with semantics close to .NET (C-like objects, etc) 21:59:12 mainly because such bad performance in matlab and mathematica 21:59:27 I wanted to write a Mathematica replacement myself once. 21:59:29 Still at the back of mind. 21:59:37 i see 21:59:54 THis was mostly driven by ais523 of this place's horror stories about it. 22:00:04 % grep 'ktne' * 22:00:04 % 22:00:17 must be recent, then 22:00:20 (I manually downloaded those logs) 22:00:25 -!- impomatic has joined. 22:00:28 ends at 2008-10-31 22:00:28 what horror stories? 22:00:40 i haven't been here since 2008-10-31 22:00:52 ok, you haven't been here before that either, at least at ktne 22:00:53 *as 22:00:56 so maybe i'm not in the logs, aha, i'm a vampire, no mirrors :) 22:01:27 ktne: the horror stories were mostly from when he was writing his proof of: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solved.html; he wrote the programs for it in Perl but wolfram required him to rewrite them in mathematica for their egos 22:01:33 i'm looking mainly for a replacement for matlab but with more symbolic stuff, a la mathematica 22:01:37 stuff like its awful performance, the crazy-ass HoldFirst thing 22:01:43 and the basic idea that it's just a pattern-matcher at heart 22:01:52 iirc he got it to crash a lot 22:02:02 i see 22:02:24 my main issues are peformance related 22:02:29 i tried to actually try it, but they wanted to look over my trial request manually, and they didn't send me a link. ho hum 22:02:49 first, they are not fast when interpreting algorithms, they are fast only when doing core processing, stdlib stuff 22:02:50 ktne: doesn't mathematica just hardcode a bunch of algos in C so that it's fast iff you're doing what wolfram does? 22:02:54 yeah 22:02:59 then second issue 22:03:06 is that they cannot handle large datasets 22:03:17 because they want to load everything in memory 22:03:31 i need something that can work off-disk 22:03:37 mm 22:03:38 maybe mmap the data files 22:03:42 why does it have to be C-speed though? 22:03:45 Does anyone know what the smallest Brainfuck hello world is? 22:03:46 C is pretty, well, fast. 22:03:52 impomatic: yes, iirc egobot generated it 22:03:54 but egobot is dead 22:03:57 i think it may be on the wiki 22:04:26 The one on the wiki is 143 22:04:44 because i wanted to do some rather intensive pattern matching in mathematica and it was just too slow and memory-hungry compare to the C version 22:04:53 impomatic: I could try and grep the logs for egobot's I think it was 113 or sth 22:04:55 *compared 22:05:07 right, but surely it doesn't need to be _as_ fast as C? 22:05:20 well that's one of my goals, from the start 22:05:30 R for example is extremely slow too 22:05:38 Ehird: thanks, that would be a big help. Google didn't show up much 22:05:54 Is 113 the best? Was that generated by a GA or something? 22:06:04 I'm not sure of the actual number, but ye 22:06:04 s 22:06:12 a Java program, I think 22:06:19 matlab can be fast but it requires you to vectorize your algorithms, which can be complicated sometime 22:06:19 (egobot let you generate BF text as a command) 22:06:44 neither mathematica or matlab have actually been designed for fast random access into arrays 22:06:59 impomatic: 22:06:59 just try to do a FOR loop in matlab :) 22:07:00 15:20:20 !bf_txtgen Hello, world! 22:07:01 15:21:04 118 +++++++++++[>++++++>++++>+++++++++>+++<<<<-]>++++++.>>++.+++++++..+++.<.>>-.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+. [839] 22:07:06 118 22:07:08 rice is me by the way 22:07:10 that's from jan 2008 22:07:13 so probably the most refined so far 22:07:32 Thanks :-) 22:07:55 np :) 22:08:18 And there is annoying thing in matlab that doing per-element lookup on vector can transpose the result... 22:08:48 everything will be perfect when we have processors that run Haskell natively. 22:08:57 so basically i want something really fast, but with an interactive repl and interactive graphics 22:09:15 but i want to stay away from class based oop for personal taste 22:09:21 ktne: do you want a pony too? :p 22:09:27 why not just stay away from oop, anyhoo 22:09:30 :-[ 22:09:31 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 22:09:47 * ehird is probably biase 22:09:47 d 22:09:50 ehird: well i really want oop :) 22:09:57 maybe something that mirrors the file system 22:10:00 um sure :p 22:10:02 so you could store values in the FS 22:10:04 ew 22:10:24 I think you want PHP, they chose \ as their namespace separator because they can't write a parser and because it was the windows dir separator (seriously) 22:10:26 persistence is another goal of mine 22:10:26 :p 22:10:46 :) 22:10:51 serializable continuations are awesome but you also have to serialize sockets and crap to do that properly 22:10:52 which is hard 22:11:07 well i'm not that interested into serializing externalities 22:11:18 only the internal state 22:11:30 ktne: there's an efficient way to do garbage collection that leaves you with efficient function calls and also efficient continuations 22:11:31 http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/CheneyMTA.html 22:11:46 might be worth checking out 22:11:53 "Appel's method avoids making a large number of small trampoline bounces by occasionally jumping off the Empire State Building. " 22:12:43 checking.. 22:13:47 funny :) 22:14:15 ktne: i assume, by the way, that you're compiling 22:14:22 because interpreting at C speed is, um... impossible. 22:14:29 i'm thinking about using llvm 22:14:52 llvm unfortunately is very imperative 22:15:18 i can't see any other option 22:15:27 compile to machine code? 22:15:29 i don't feel like wanting to implement a JIT :) 22:15:48 if you really need C speed... ) 22:15:49 :) 22:15:56 llvm generates C speed 22:16:09 i'm mostly afraid of optimizations 22:16:20 it generates C speed if your language is mostly imperative, I would say 22:16:28 implementing proper optimizations is very time consuming which is why i don't want to compile to machine code myself 22:16:42 well i guess my language is meant to be mostly imperative 22:16:45 well heck, if you want C speed you'd better be ready to spend a lotta time on it ;) 22:16:51 maybe single assignment 22:17:16 i think haskell is nearing C-speed 22:17:21 that's pretty mathematical :P 22:17:31 i don't really like pure functional stuff 22:17:46 why? :) 22:17:47 mainly because of resource impredictability issues 22:17:48 haskell's compiler is also black magic 22:18:06 resource usage has be be fairly easy to estimate 22:18:08 Deewiant: I don't think ghc is _that_ obscure... 22:18:19 ktne: i think some of the peeps in #haskell have done work on that 22:18:19 hi Deewiant 22:18:32 might wanna ask them 22:18:37 well also pure functional is not that suitable for matlab-like stuff 22:18:48 why 22:18:55 and i'm not willing to spend years on the compilation stuff :) 22:19:08 i have to have this done in months :) llvm with a frontend on top :) 22:19:14 hi ktne 22:19:31 "have" to? 22:19:37 if you have to have c speed really quickly, use c? :P 22:19:40 well i have to use it for some real stuff 22:19:46 because C is not interactive, nor ddynamic 22:19:54 i want interactive graphs and stuff 22:19:56 like that 22:20:07 good luck with C speed for that ;-) 22:20:31 :) 22:20:54 well i was thinking about using some google jvm-like techniques 22:21:10 jscript vm i mean 22:21:22 but jscript is limited from the start due to semantic issues 22:21:23 i think your three goals - interactive, c-speed, and not long to develop - are contradictory. 22:21:56 there is no such language so far 22:22:10 exactly 22:22:36 it doesn't feel that hard to do, i just think nobody tried 22:22:44 the first two are contradictory I'd say — it's like having a language which compiles to optimized C but with zero compilation time :-) 22:22:55 and the first two contradict the last 22:23:02 for example most scripting languages don't have C-like types which makes them slow from the start 22:23:23 Deewiant: i'm not that interested in zero compilation time, more in fast execution 22:23:36 ... and interactiveness. 22:23:39 yes 22:23:40 ktne: just talking about the semantics of 'C speed' and 'interactive' put together 22:23:54 >> 2+2 22:23:55 (...) 22:23:56 (...) 22:23:58 (...) 22:24:00 (...) 22:24:02 4 22:24:04 >> 22:24:07 i.e. if you want interactive + C speed you need zero time spent to generate the C-speed code :-) 22:24:20 unless you can generate code which is faster than C, which is unlikely 22:24:27 well C spends a lot of time in compilation stage too :) 22:24:33 yeah, exactly 22:24:34 and C is not interactive 22:24:36 because of that 22:24:37 which is why, good luck :-P 22:24:38 compilation time is not an issue for me 22:24:46 yes it IS 22:24:48 only execution speed is an issue 22:24:49 if you want it to be interactive, it is 22:24:49 you want interactivity 22:24:58 interactive time = compilation time + runtime 22:25:18 i don't see how compiling one line of code at a time can be that slow 22:25:29 since that's what i mean by interactivity, a repl 22:25:42 it's not that slow, but it won't be C speed 22:25:45 that's all compilation that needs to be fast 22:25:51 compiling a file can be slower 22:25:53 it might be /almost/ C speed 22:25:56 y'know, try sbcl 22:25:58 but that's different 22:26:01 it's REPL is basically C speed 22:26:02 we're just arguing semantics :-P 22:26:05 well i assume that each line takes a long time toe xecute 22:26:09 to 22:26:30 that's why repl compilation time is not an issue, as long as there is no visible lag per command, i'm ok with it 22:26:36 "no visible lag per command" 22:26:43 that's, um 22:26:44 good luck 22:27:18 'no visible lag' + 'C speed' don't mix unless you add a qualifier like 'close to' to the latter :-) 22:27:18 ok, let's not digress 22:27:52 i mean no visible lang from when you type ENTER and up to when it starts executing the command 22:28:07 even if compiling just one line of code takes 0.25sec, that's still acceptable 22:28:13 0.25sec is, um, visible lag. 22:28:15 0.25 is visible :-) 22:28:20 0.25sec is HUGELY visible 22:28:25 0.1 is approximately when it starts to get visible 22:28:35 ok, 0.1 then 22:28:38 depends on the user's speed obviously 22:28:41 i assume llvm compiles quite fast 22:28:59 compiling one function is not that much 22:29:02 I notice 0.05 :\ 22:29:11 my main issue is execution time 22:29:18 depends on what you're doing, too, of course 22:29:27 what kind of semantic restrictions do i have to add in order to get good performance from a dynamic language 22:29:31 that's my question 22:29:39 anything but classes, i can't stand classes 22:29:47 losing dynamic types helps ;-) 22:30:10 -!- nice has joined. 22:30:10 assuming that's what you meant by 'dynamic' 22:30:10 how can you have interactivity without dynamic types? 22:30:16 everything is a tradeoff, purity vs efficiency. 22:30:18 see haskell, for instance 22:30:22 yeah haskell 22:30:30 i'm not interested in language purity at all 22:30:30 haskell even behaves dynamic 22:30:32 since it's inferred 22:30:34 ktne: why would interactivity require dynamic types? 22:30:35 i don't care if it looks like perl :) 22:30:41 ktne: you misunderstand purity. 22:30:51 you're saying, oh I need mallable prototype objects 22:30:53 Deewiant: because i want to be able to add methods at runtime 22:30:59 ehird: yes 22:30:59 and that's taking purity over efficiency 22:31:09 that does sort of require dynamic types, yes :-) 22:31:16 i was thinking about adding something liek a Seal method to objects 22:31:31 can you do object.Seal.Club 22:31:33 that would prevent any further modification of object structure 22:31:46 how useful would that be? 22:31:55 if it's not sealed then it would execute slower 22:32:14 sooo now you can't add methods at runtime 22:32:16 so what is the point 22:32:20 well you can 22:32:25 My first attempt to write a brainfuck hello world by hand - 122 instructions :-( 22:32:26 but then it would be "un-sealed" 22:32:33 and execution would be slower 22:32:36 see what i mean? 22:32:54 i'm willing to accept this as a sacrifice :) 22:32:58 take a look at recent javascript engines 22:33:23 Asztal: the problem with jscript is that you have to check to see if the object structure has been modified after each function call 22:33:29 ktne: dropping objects helps a lot. 22:33:39 you can still add methods at runtime 22:33:41 by just defining a function 22:33:51 and there's no overhead to the actual "object" 22:33:53 (data) 22:34:43 that would still have the same issue 22:34:53 because the object structure could change 22:35:07 (data structure) 22:35:17 instead of changing it 22:35:20 just redefine it 22:35:29 what would happen to old objects? 22:35:39 or maybe i could redefine then copy the old object in the new one? 22:35:47 ktne: yeah, something like that 22:35:50 that would also be more semantically pure 22:35:58 yes 22:36:02 ktne: immutable objects also helps 22:36:10 but that's going into functional purity land 22:36:30 haskell 22:36:31 Prelude> let a $$ b = a+(b/2.0) 22:36:32 Prelude> 1 $$ 3 22:36:34 2.5 22:36:43 bam, I just defined a method on (Fractional a) => a -> a -> a :-P 22:36:48 well immutable objects would be ok too 22:37:02 but i need to be able to apply immutability to any object at any point 22:37:14 i meant make all "objects" immutable 22:37:17 ah 22:37:20 no, i can't do that 22:37:26 that would make many algorithms too slow 22:37:29 um 22:37:31 no. 22:37:40 you can optimize it very well 22:37:59 make copied objects reference their copier, use mutation if there's only one reference around 22:38:00 etc 22:38:06 see: GHC haskell compiler 22:38:14 i can't afford optimisations other than llvm 22:38:40 You can afford GHC :-) 22:38:43 i can't really reimplement GHC :) 22:38:49 so use ghc? ;) 22:38:55 can it be embedded? 22:39:00 in which way 22:39:03 to compile snippets of code to machine code 22:39:08 within the same process 22:39:09 GHC has a repl 22:39:12 hmm 22:39:19 like I just showed you 22:39:20 Prelude> let a $$ b = a+(b/2.0) 22:39:21 Prelude> 1 $$ 3 22:39:23 2.5 22:39:25 that was in a REPL 22:39:27 all instant 22:39:29 but still, i'm not sure how could you translate an imperative program to ghc 22:39:30 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 22:39:36 to haskell, you mean 22:39:39 yes 22:39:41 well, it is a restructuring, of course 22:39:56 IMO the result is a better program, but there you go 22:40:07 just put it all in main 22:40:16 there's plenty of real-world haskell libraries, btw: 22:40:17 http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/pkg-list.html 22:40:19 1000 of them 22:40:25 my issue is the language :) 22:40:34 i just don't like ghc :) or haskell :) 22:40:42 in general i don't like functional stuff 22:40:46 shrug 22:40:59 because i need to run common algorithms 22:41:00 haskell is the best imperative language 22:41:12 ktne: common algorithms fit functionality well 22:41:24 i just feel that most of the optimizations you do just bring you closer to haskell 22:41:26 ehird: common as in: expressed in standard C form 22:41:43 if you can read C and you can read Haskell ... you can translate between the two 22:41:51 there's also libraries for stuff like that 22:42:10 i don't really want to do that :) 22:42:21 i don't want ghc as a dependency :) 22:42:29 i won't touch it with a pole :) 22:42:53 i need a classical environment that can be used by people familiar with matlab 22:43:00 then you have to go slower 22:43:01 it's all tradeoffs 22:43:04 as a faster matlab replacement 22:43:15 you can have your cake and eat it, but it might not have cherries on top :-) 22:43:56 the reason why i don't want to rely on ghc is because of the black magic that happens behind 22:44:05 what black magic 22:44:21 at least with llvm i have a good idea of all optimizations that happen and how the program is transformed by those optimizations 22:44:35 ghc has documentation 22:44:43 also how could i debug that code? 22:45:01 by... debugging it? 22:45:03 because you can't debug it if it's converted to haskell 22:45:18 i mean debugging the interactive repl code 22:45:20 i'm not saying convert the program to haskell . . . 22:45:37 how could you otherwise use ghc as a compiled? 22:45:44 *compiler? 22:45:52 by feeding it haskell? 22:45:56 hi kids 22:46:08 then i have to convert my program to haskell, right? 22:46:10 ehird: how's bsmntbombgirl ? 22:46:11 hi bsmntbombgirl 22:46:13 *bot 22:46:21 bsmntbombgirl: a bit broken atm, I can fix it. 22:46:28 bsmntbombgirl: I think I'll sue you for the misleading name 22:46:35 ktne: or you could write your program in haskell, y'know 22:46:45 not my program 22:46:49 ehird: that shit needs to be put in source control 22:46:52 the program you run in the repl 22:47:10 ktne: what i'm saying is: Haskell already does all your requirements :-) 22:47:19 bsmntbombgirl: it needs a rewrite tbh 22:47:19 it's not orthodox enough 22:47:25 ktne: why is this a problem? 22:47:27 yeah 22:47:33 because it has to run standard code 22:47:35 imperative stuff 22:47:39 why 22:47:51 because i find it nearly impossible to code functional :) 22:47:54 i was thinking i should write an irc server 22:48:04 bsmntbombgirl: i thought that, it's a bit of a pain tbh 22:48:16 why? 22:48:50 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 22:48:54 because the RFC is stupid, and networking code handling a huge amount of people is stupid 22:49:43 i just wrote a rather nice (imo) abstraction over the network part 22:49:55 using libevent 22:50:18 bsmntbombgirl: bsmnt_bot's charm is that it sucks 22:50:26 what do you mean? 22:50:56 it doesn't do anything and you can mess it up with the python command, but it's fun to have it around anyway :P 22:51:34 -!- oklopol has joined. 22:52:46 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 22:53:34 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:55:32 -!- jix has joined. 23:01:20 ehird: ghc appears to have quite poor performance compared to C 23:01:30 -!- Corun has joined. 23:01:35 it's not perfect, but it can be made faster with some optimization hints 23:01:50 and the speed is still very reasonable by default, for most tasks 23:02:22 it's not really what i want 23:02:28 i can't stand haskell :-/ 23:02:32 if GHC is poor compared to C then good luck getting the kind of speed you want :-P 23:02:48 Deewiant: llvm is pretty fast 23:02:58 ktne: depends on the kind of code you give it 23:03:00 haskell is great, I think what you're saying is ... I haven't really used haskell much, but it sounds scary :-) 23:03:06 Deewiant: classical imperative code 23:03:21 well yeah, that's what the LLVM IR is 23:03:27 more important is what the code does :-P 23:03:47 mostly array and graph manipulations 23:04:09 that does not sound very imperative to me 23:04:33 imperative code is just manually optimized functional code. kind of like writing asm instead of C. you rarely do better. meh. 23:04:43 except you often do better :P 23:04:54 i can't think in a pure functional fashion 23:05:02 i'm sure you can 23:05:02 so i don't want a pure functional language 23:05:04 you just haven't tried 23:05:14 ehird: lol wut 23:05:15 not 23:05:29 convincing arguments 23:05:38 ok, let's suppose you want to implement a longest common subsequence algorithm in haskell, how that would look like? 23:06:04 ktne: pretty simple 23:06:09 http://www.rosettacode.org/wiki/Longest_Common_Subsequence#Haskell 23:06:39 trivial translation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_common_subsequence#LCS_function_defined 23:08:05 how many years of haskell experience do i need to implement the memoization example? 23:08:06 -!- nice has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:08:12 0 23:08:15 that's hellaciously inneficient 23:08:22 bsmntbombgirl: shh ;-) 23:08:26 bsmntbombgirl: sure, it's a naive implementation 23:08:32 those are generally slow 23:08:39 ehird: i'm looking at the memoization example 23:08:43 ktne: that haskell code is easy to understand once you have a grasp of Haskell 23:08:44 not at the simple recursive one 23:08:51 so, like I said.. 0 23:09:03 0 if using integer divide :) 23:09:16 ok, what I mean is < 1 23:09:20 you didn't specify the type of your answer so it defaulted to integer :-P 23:09:29 s/your answer/the answer you wanted/ 23:10:24 that code is horrible :/ 23:10:26 god is real 23:10:39 ktne: ITYM "I don't understand that code" 23:10:41 bsmntbombgirl: i see 23:11:32 the nonmemoize haskell code is beautiful 23:11:40 so is the memoized :P 23:11:48 i tried reading the definition of LCS and its painful to read 23:11:52 the haskell code makes it all clear 23:11:57 DAMN YOU HASKELL 23:12:06 how can i test that code? 23:12:13 without installing ghc 23:12:24 ummm 23:12:32 how can you run code without installing an implementation 23:12:35 you don't. 23:12:40 is it possible in ghc to redefine object? 23:12:46 be more specific 23:12:49 i mean, redefine functions 23:12:53 yes, in the REPL. 23:13:53 let's suppose i want to count how many times a substring appears in a larger string 23:13:57 how would that look in haskell? 23:14:11 are you getting me to write your program for you? :D 23:14:15 yes 23:14:20 i can't write them myself :) 23:14:32 yes you can 23:14:47 i just want to see how it looks like 23:15:30 http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base/Data-List.html 23:15:34 there's probably a function in there to do it :P 23:15:36 * ehird peeks 23:15:40 that's not what i need 23:15:46 i need to implement all those algorithms myself 23:15:50 why 23:16:00 the library writers are much better at it than you 23:16:02 because it's a tool for computing stuff 23:16:09 why do you have to write your own 23:16:19 because isn't that the purpose of the tool?\ 23:16:23 huh? 23:16:27 to allow people to implement algorithms 23:16:46 i need a matlab replacement 23:16:51 generally people don't write all the algorithms they use in their program 23:16:59 i can't depend on libraries for that 23:17:13 why 23:17:19 that library is in core GHC 23:17:23 if you have GHC, you have that library 23:17:30 because i need to implement that many more algorithms 23:17:35 that are mostly non-standard 23:17:38 ok 23:18:16 so, any idea how to speed a jscript-like language? :-D 23:18:30 sigh 23:18:33 first, add proper C integer types and proper C arrays 23:18:35 yes, apply all the transformations to it to make it more static 23:18:58 static dance uuuuh yeah 23:19:03 New brainfuck Hello World = 115. That's 3 instructions shorter 23:19:20 where's egobot when you need one 23:19:29 how long does he produce? 23:19:32 oklopol: i already gave him that 23:19:40 118 23:19:45 but impomatic's beaten that 23:19:47 i need to figure out some bf-textgen again 23:20:07 ehird: ah cool; seems i didn't read the logs then. 23:21:01 I was hoping to reach 88 so my interpretter and Hello World fit in 100 instructions, but I don't think there's any chance 23:21:08 walking the graph with A* would work 23:21:10 +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>++++>+++>++++++++<<<<<-]>-----.>++.+++++++..+++.>.>-.>-.<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+. 23:21:16 impomatic: you have a 22 char bf interp? 23:21:24 but that's probably ridiculously slow 23:21:24 the one on wp is 88 23:21:28 but you probably know that too 23:21:37 oh 23:21:38 you probably don't 23:21:40 No, 12 instruction interpretter :-) 23:21:45 woah 23:21:47 paste it 23:21:56 also, yeah 23:21:57 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. 23:21:59 from wp 23:22:26 impomatic: show this interp! :) 23:22:54 12 instructions beats cise by quite a lot 23:22:55 And it's not slow. When it starts execution, it converts all [ and ] to relative jumps 23:23:17 impomatic: can you show it? 23:23:20 shoooooooooooooooooow itttttttttttttt 23:23:24 The interpretter is more of a compiler, and it's in redcode 23:23:27 oooh 23:23:29 SHOWWWW ITTTTTTT 23:24:33 Okay, wait! 23:25:35 damn 12 instructions 23:25:37 that is impressive 23:26:25 Not so impressive: http://pastebin.ca/1317388 23:27:01 When the redcode is compiled, it uses macros to compile brainfuck to redcode 23:27:27 still pretty awesome 23:27:29 There are 12 instructions to fix the [ and ] jump addresses 23:27:36 where are the macros 23:27:44 write a brainfuck optimizer 23:27:48 ehird: the first lines 23:27:49 Macros at the top 23:27:55 ah 23:28:00 equ's 23:28:12 man, that's awesome 23:28:22 Thanks 23:28:24 impomatic: how much would it take to add a parser? 23:29:22 Not much, but first I need to recompile the redcode interpretter. Haven't got a C compiler on this Windoze machine 23:30:03 i gotta write my own RISC, beating 12 instructions will be hard 23:30:16 I will add a parser to read in Brainfuck from a file. 23:30:16 And possibly add a table based optimizer 23:30:32 Often 2 brainfuck instructions could be reduced to 1 redcode instruction 23:30:33 well 23:30:35 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Yael 15 instructions 23:30:43 but only 256 bytes of addressable memory... 23:30:53 so code+data has to be <256 bytes :( 23:31:23 well, it also has 8 registers 23:31:33 so 264 23:31:40 but you can't put code in registers, ofc 23:31:48 -!- yuri815 has joined. 23:33:28 ehird: you should add a context switch operator, so you could have a tape of 256 cell memories 23:33:33 i mean two of those 23:33:36 possibly 23:33:39 but it's basically vinalized 23:33:43 yes. 23:33:46 i remember the process 23:33:46 i think it's prety nice 23:33:55 I mean, that cat program is pretty small 23:34:01 *finalized 23:34:01 it's a local maximum, definitely. 23:34:06 wut 23:34:09 :P 23:34:14 whaddya talking about :P 23:34:25 small fixes won't make it purer. 23:34:31 *small changes 23:34:45 and by pure i mean... i don't know. pretty 23:35:28 unfortunately, code isn't always a round number of bytes 23:35:34 e.g. cat is 8 bytes + 1 bit 23:35:40 so you just need to pad it out with 0s 23:35:44 still 23:35:46 9 byte cat program 23:35:49 not bad, ey? 23:35:58 6 instructions, 9 bytes 23:36:20 00000000 00110100 00001000 01111110 01010110 10011000 11000000 00001111 10000000 23:37:08 no it's not bad 23:37:13 * ehird writes yael interp 'cuz why not 23:38:03 ya w nut. 23:38:07 *y 23:40:03 The Hello World from Wikipedia outputs a different string. No comma, but a newline 23:40:18 ah. 23:40:21 so what :-) 23:45:38 oklopol: problem with implementing yael: you have to split bytse apart :( 23:45:44 because shit can go across byte lines and stuff 23:46:07 ehird: yeah. are you surprised? :P 23:46:10 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 23:46:20 no :D 23:46:45 oklopol: what is hello world in cise 23:46:47 -!- yuri815 has quit. 23:46:48 ? 23:47:04 it's not actually hard though, it's just slower 23:47:07 err. 23:47:22 wait 23:47:51 hmm. 23:47:59 i have no idea how to output stuff :P 23:48:11 i usually don't care much for that practical nonsense 23:48:20 wait. 23:48:23 actually... 23:48:25 i think it's H 23:48:28 so 23:48:30 H"Hello, world! 23:48:31 ? 23:48:41 no... i think printing hello world is H... :P 23:48:46 hahah 23:48:51 ok what about printing hello world sans cheatin 23:48:52 g 23:49:00 iirc i decided Q and H should be in the instr set for luls 23:49:28 it would just be "Hello world", plus 1 or 2 characters of function before it if i add a print command 23:49:53 wow, how verbose 23:49:54 golfscript is 23:49:57 "Hello, world!" 23:50:20 it prints the stack after running the program? 23:50:26 yeah, pops and prints 23:50:31 and puts input first on stack before running 23:50:43 right, right. 23:52:25 cise could well work like that too, have input as the program's param, apply the program to it, print result 23:52:49 but, well, i'm more interested in the more interesting aspects. 23:53:25 hmm 23:53:39 what can make an assembly language really concise is good comparison jumps, I think 23:53:43 like C's switch(){} 23:55:06 so how about designing such a basic instruction set you're writing in computation itself? 23:55:38 oklopol: wut? 23:55:40 :P 23:55:55 ehird: well, on second thought, that made absolutely no sense. 23:56:05 but still, it's worth considering. 23:56:20 that's basically a OISC 23:56:27 "what operation embodies the fundamental operation of computing?" 23:59:04 that's not nearly as fundamental as i had in mind 23:59:29 i'm talking so low-level you may not even be able to implement it in this universe. 23:59:38 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 23:59:38 there's simply too much computation going on no matter what you do 23:59:55 lol