00:05:21 No one submitted any entries for XYZ? 00:05:33 oh n/m 00:16:31 16:41:00 ={:'a'z..?{'a-13+26%}if} 16:41:04 ninjacode, without much thought 00:16:34 whoa ninjacode rot13 :D 00:17:35 0=~1+.' C~ 00:17:36 prettyyyy 00:18:24 0=~1+.' C~ is possibly the best code I've ever written. 00:19:23 What's a good language to learn for jobs 00:20:17 java. 00:20:18 php. 00:20:21 c#. 00:20:22 vb. 00:20:52 What about C++? 00:21:05 maybe in the games industry. 00:21:32 Sgeo: btw, a mainstream programming job is about the most soul-destroying thing you could do. 00:21:37 I would reconsider. 00:21:44 Howso? 00:21:53 Or are you assuming that from TDWTF? 00:21:54 Sgeo: y'know thedailywtf? 00:21:57 that's everyday. 00:22:00 and no 00:22:08 I've had many conversations over the years :P 00:22:21 {'{C:.'}C.}'{C:.'}C. <- ninjacode quine, awesome 00:22:43 * Sgeo can't find any information on ninjacode 00:22:47 my lang 00:22:52 circa jan 08 00:23:09 summary, from then: 00:23:09 1. small code size, for golfing 2. easy to refactor to be smaller 3. mostly written in itself, as an stdlib: a very big stdlib, with tons and tons of stuff 4. the core is just a very simple kernel written in C, which compiles the very small core it provides to native code (!!!) and then the rest is done by the stdlib 00:23:23 it was quite elegantering. 00:23:42 (elegant, v. to make more elegant) 00:24:53 Link to interp and docs? 00:24:58 ahahahaha 00:25:13 infer whatever from that 00:25:46 i infer that you are infernal 00:25:56 * Sgeo wants to learn ninjacode@! 00:25:56 Oerjan can I rent your swatter 00:25:57 ! 00:26:13 yes; that will be 3 cuils 00:27:06 doubled if you swat me 00:27:27 Sgeo: there's no compiler, nor docs. 00:27:28 also i infer there are no docs 00:27:35 however I am now tempted to revive the project. 00:27:44 Do it@ 00:27:45 ! 00:27:49 Sgeo: I can explain 0=~1+.' C~ to you, if you want 00:27:53 Sure 00:28:01 it linecounts a file 00:28:10 a\nb\nc -> 1 a\n2 b\n3 c 00:28:18 so, 0 pushes 0 to the stack 00:28:23 = is like perl -p 00:28:26 basically: 00:28:45 = means 'while there is input: read line, push to stack, run rest of program, print Top of Stack (popping it), repeat' 00:28:57 ~ means swap, so we get the 0 on the top of the stack, not the input 00:28:59 1+ increments it 00:29:01 . outputs it 00:29:04 ' <- note the space 00:29:09 'c is the ascii num of char c 00:29:13 C prints a character from its ascii code 00:29:19 and ~ swaps again, making the input line the ToS 00:29:21 and it's printed 00:29:24 and the line count is still there 00:29:27 and the new line is pushed 00:29:27 etc 00:30:42 -!- Corun has joined. 00:32:15 Sgeo: get it? 00:32:23 Kind of 00:32:32 what don't you get :-D 00:33:47 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:36:14 Nothing, I'm just not that focused on it. Would "2+" be increment of two? 00:38:31 -!- olsner has joined. 00:39:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:40:27 Yes. 00:40:29 It's stack-based. 00:45:08 night 00:45:31 IS IT STACK-BASED!!!!? 00:46:01 wut 00:47:03 that's what I said 00:50:59 but, is it stack-based? 00:51:21 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:51:32 verily 00:58:34 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:01:20 DOES THAT MEAN IT IS STACK BASED!? 01:01:36 a rot13 drome: greeny <-> terral 01:01:56 rotiedrome! 01:08:01 I don't think it is stack based. The evidence is shaky to say the least. 01:11:02 oh god. 01:11:07 next ubuntu: "karmic koala" 01:11:09 I am not fucking kidding 01:11:33 It's a word 01:11:49 KARMIC 01:11:50 fucking 01:11:51 KOALA 01:12:26 If "fucking" was part of the name, I'd understand the issue here 01:13:25 Karmic Koala Engaged in Intercourse 01:13:28 Karmic Kuk Koala? 01:13:45 btw, does norwegian have the word "kuk"? 01:17:08 -!- M0ny has quit ("Quit"). 01:18:03 Karmic Cock Koala 01:19:25 olsner: yes 01:19:27 NotAnAlliterationException 01:20:12 there's a norwegian band named "Brutal Kuk", i hear 01:20:36 how impolite and provocative of them 01:20:48 Kock Koala 01:20:50 Cock Coala 01:20:51 pick one 01:21:27 aha, coala is a synonym for koala, according to dictionary.reference.com 01:22:05 Cock Coala works then, although I guess the sequence of release names requires a 'k'-alliteration 01:22:18 they also have a giant phallus as a concert prop 01:23:38 phallic phallus should be the fifth ubuntu release from now 01:24:12 nah, that will be Perfect Panda 01:24:17 * oerjan ducks 01:24:58 penile p-something 01:25:33 erm in case you didn't notice it was ehird who inserted the rude words 01:25:57 penile piss. 01:25:59 really? 01:26:04 Duh. 01:26:16 also, do we really care about such things in #esoteric? 01:26:51 depends whether our pedantics or our gay sex drive is strongest at the moment 01:27:16 pedantic gay sex. 01:27:17 THE BEST! 01:27:44 ehird, what would you suggest instead of mainstream programming? 01:27:49 certainly pedantics 01:28:07 Sgeo: Make a startup, suck paul graham's dick, fail to be bought out, die of starvation. 01:28:10 well, then we care, duh 01:28:50 so, gay sex => not caring about rude words? 01:29:09 and non-gay sex => caring? 01:29:44 You can't have gay sex without naughty words, olsner 01:29:48 Now suck my dick 01:29:55 Slereah_: seldom would I ever 01:30:01 (no offence) 01:30:25 also, naughty words exist without sex 01:30:35 But where's the fun in that 01:30:52 there's some kind of logical fallacy (phallosy?) involved 01:31:24 phallucy 01:31:46 +spelling, obviously 01:32:18 vaginal phallucy 01:32:25 olsner: what the hell are you talking about you satanic infidel 01:32:38 -!- ehird has set topic: what the fuck are you fucking about you satanic GUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU. 01:32:53 oerjan: have some fermented milk you norwegian person! 01:33:04 -!- Slereah_ has set topic: what the fuck are you fucking about you satanic GUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 01:33:04 ehird: you missed the point, which was to have naughty words _without_ sex 01:33:20 naughty sex without words 01:33:33 that's easy, but not in a topic 01:33:51 verily 01:33:58 well would be easy if i could get some 01:34:09 also, emily deschanel <3 01:34:30 #esoteric is so fucking weird 01:34:31 Wow, #wikipedia is deluged 01:34:34 and also weird at fucking 01:35:04 if there was ever fucking in #esoteric, it would probably be quite generic 01:35:13 deluged, or just deluded? and deranged. 01:35:31 oerjan, Wikipedia is down, and the error message points there 01:35:41 erm 01:35:42 not down for me 01:35:42 oerjan: deluged, deluded and deranged! 01:35:43 it's up 01:35:44 ;\ 01:35:46 olsner: kefir då? 01:35:55 "wikipedia is BROKEN for most users" 01:36:21 oerjan: haven't had fil in a few weeks though... besides, kefir is essentially the same as fil 01:36:44 kefir mjølk, kefir ikkje kaffi 01:37:04 kefir är fan inte mjölk, det är ett som är säkert! 01:37:46 oerjan: you wouldn't happen to have a youtube clip of an angry norwegian? 01:38:04 there was some contention over beer whether or not norwegians had the ability to be angry 01:38:11 olsner: that's actually a pun on "kefir" sounding like it _could_ be nynorsk for "hvorfor" / "why" 01:38:26 some comedians did that in a sketch or something 01:38:48 oh, obtruse (obstuse? obscure?) 01:38:55 (the actual nynorsk is "kvifor") 01:39:07 also, I see the fun of it 01:39:42 * oerjan checks wp 01:40:06 hm hanging 01:40:25 Vunderbar. 01:40:35 olsner: i'm actually not at youtube much 01:40:44 My external brain enhancement. :/ 01:41:19 oerjan: the best thing about norwegians though is that their english sounds like the keepers of the continuum transfunctioner 01:41:32 WTF? 01:41:34 (usually) 01:41:46 it's true! 01:41:57 and it's friggin hilarious! 01:42:00 what is a keeper of the continuum transfunctioner? 01:42:18 oh, from the movie dude where's my car 01:43:07 olsner: here's an oldie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHT_Lu0OoAI 01:44:32 hm there was this washmashine repair thing... 01:44:49 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXMcp94Y-9U 01:44:56 oh that's just a sound file 01:45:05 The deluge in #wikipedia has stopped 01:45:32 good, so we can continue it in here now then? 01:46:00 but but we have no bots to spam with 01:46:45 It's back, I think 01:46:58 you mean, we have no humans to provide contents with? 01:47:16 http://lispmachine.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/the-key/ <-- Biggest retard ever. 01:47:59 mörnin 01:48:04 hi oklopol 01:48:16 You're not ... dangit no compose key 01:48:21 hyvvä 01:48:36 olsner: yes very gdodd. 01:48:54 oklopol: orly!? just guessing damnit :P 01:48:55 oklopol: god morgon 01:49:15 otoh, 'hyvvä' I have actually learnt at some time 01:49:42 yxi kaxi kolme hyvvä ei saa peittää parasta ennen 01:49:54 s/x/ks/g 01:49:55 :P 01:50:06 oerjan: one error left. 01:50:15 ... getting your finnish corrected by the norwegian 01:50:40 hm i don't know that one 01:50:49 oerjan: i already hinted. 01:51:03 huh? 01:51:08 olsner: hyvvä ||| oklopol: olsner: yes very gdodd. <<< this is, in fact, a pun 01:51:18 aha 01:51:20 hyyvä? 01:51:25 :D 01:51:57 hejj hhej heej hej 01:52:16 nope, it's "hyvä", this is one of the 5 exceptional words where there are no double-letters, what ever the term is for those 01:52:53 wtf! 01:53:08 indeed 01:53:16 Most words have redundant letters? 01:53:17 i had to check my dictionary, tbh. 01:53:26 but it's a double-v and a short-y with the accent on the last 'ä', right? 01:53:44 What does hyva mean? And pretend that the a has those two dots 01:54:26 Sgeo: you're finnish, you should know 01:54:40 olsner: you can't have accent on the last "ä", all accents are on the first syllable; which btw is something all languages should do. 01:54:59 * oerjan swats oklopol -----### 01:55:11 olsner, what do you mean, I'm finnish? 01:55:13 accent might not be what I'm actually referring to 01:55:22 stress 01:55:32 emphasis 01:55:33 Sgeo: you're not!!?? ok, maybe you aren't 01:55:42 pressure 01:55:44 Is it the nick? 01:55:46 yeah, something along those lines 01:55:46 push 01:55:52 weight 01:55:53 Did the nick make you think I'm finnish? 01:55:59 Sgeo: yeah, sgeo is finnish for dumbass 01:56:15 * Sgeo steals oerjan's swatter 01:56:26 * Sgeo swats oerjan -----### 01:56:30 *ouch* 01:56:35 that'll be 6 cuils 01:56:44 * Sgeo is not paying 01:56:46 * Sgeo runs 01:56:48 * oerjan takes his swatter back 01:56:48 * olsner gets a few ascii tables and builds himself a swatter 01:56:52 "sg" isn't very finnishy. 01:56:57 oklopol: sssh 01:57:00 god you suck at finnish 01:57:02 seriously. 01:57:07 a dyslexic finn, then 01:57:19 * Sgeo knows 0 finnish 01:57:20 oklopol: you think i didn't know that? 01:57:25 oerjan: well no 01:57:42 i'm just playing my part in the convo. 01:58:03 oh, and this is the part where you tell us we suck? 01:58:14 :) 01:58:22 makes sense, actually, but it's kind of harsh 01:58:48 i don't think "god you suck at finnish" is an insult 01:59:00 suukkaani enormousilainen 01:59:13 it's like a woman telling me i menstruate like a dried up piece of wood 01:59:39 oerjan: wtf :D 01:59:55 was that your own translation? 02:00:02 _now_ you can tell me i suck at finnish :D 02:00:02 oerjan: hey, I could understand that! :P 02:00:03 i wish i could translate it back 02:00:18 because it's awesome 02:00:55 for the love of , translate it back anyway 02:01:08 "enormousilainen" is a perfectly contructed name for a citizen of enormous (or enormousi) 02:01:42 "suukkaani" would probably be the inessive of "suukka", which is perfect finnish, but means absolutely nothing 02:02:18 you probably want "suukkaan", which is the first person of the verb "suukata", which again means nothing 02:02:19 "I'm oerjan, the inessive of suukka of enormous!" 02:02:37 "sukata" is sometimes used for "suck" 02:02:58 and then, sukani would mean what? 02:03:02 but, i have a feeling this is more interesting to me than it is to you ppl, so i think i'm gonna get me some pizza 02:03:02 except 02:03:05 FUCK 02:03:13 the place closed 2 minutes ago :D 02:03:36 I guess you're stuck with the delusions of the rest of us 02:03:36 hm i know -ni can be a 1st person suffix but probably nouns only? 02:04:05 olsner: it would be the possessive of the noun "suka", which is something you brush animals with 02:04:24 oerjan: possessive 02:04:31 "my X" 02:04:35 so yes 02:05:18 the only way "ni" could end a verb would be if it were in the potential, but it's rare even then, and the potential isn't really used. 02:05:31 (are they called "cases" or what was the term again?) 02:05:53 it is in swedish, "kasus" 02:06:04 erm cases are on nouns and adjectives usually 02:06:25 verbs have tenses, aspects and moods 02:06:29 and i wouldn't suggest learning the potential anyway, since about 5% of the finnish population is able to form it 02:06:32 that 5% being me. 02:07:01 rubbish there are only 5 finns so you mean 20% 02:07:03 tenses, aspects and moods... and here I've only learned the difference betweem tenses 02:07:03 (yes, i mated.) 02:07:14 ^ for oerjan 02:07:18 i mean 02:07:19 said that 02:07:20 for him 02:07:22 ... 02:07:24 nm 02:08:12 well tenses might include the others too, i'm a bit unclear on that 02:08:20 Slereah_: congrats on the topic, i assumed it was ehird's. 02:08:29 nah, tenses and moods and the others are pretty distinct 02:08:35 hm nah 02:08:47 "the posessive the other" 02:08:54 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_tense 02:09:04 also lists voice and person 02:09:06 AFK 02:09:19 CYA 02:09:32 GTFO 02:09:47 BBQ! 02:10:05 ASL 02:10:19 papapa-oom-mow-mow, papa-oom-mow-mow 02:10:22 19/m/fi 02:10:45 had to think about the number for a while 02:10:50 38/m/no 02:11:22 only a month till it changes, then probably another month of confusion when i'm learning the new one. 02:11:43 oerjan: oh dang i was looking for chicks. 02:11:54 also the age difference could be in the other direction 02:11:59 except may a teensy bit less. 02:12:03 *maybe 02:12:27 any chicks here since sukoshi? 02:12:28 i mean an irc chat with a newborn might not be all that fruitful. 02:12:32 yes 02:12:48 hotidlerchick, although i heard from a reliable ehird he was actually a me 02:12:52 but you never know. 02:12:53 WAWAWA DA DA BABABA DA 02:13:15 MU 02:13:16 i don't know what that means 02:13:19 but good for you. 02:13:46 oklopol: actually a me? that sounds serious 02:14:00 how so? 02:14:34 * oerjan shakes away the confusion and assumes oklopol was joking 02:14:57 i was only joking in how i said what i said 02:15:00 not in what i meant 02:15:15 i heard from a reliable source hotidlerchick was actually oklopol. 02:15:28 wait a minute 02:15:48 i could believe that, except you are implying ehird is a reliable source 02:16:02 well okay that may have been confusing. 02:16:05 well 02:16:10 i don't know. 02:16:18 he said something about the ip's being the same 02:16:24 maybe he deceived you. it's so easy to do. 02:16:33 and that oklopol was probably doing the "i have a girl in here with me" gag 02:17:01 if i know oklopol at all, which i probably don't, that does sound like something he would do 02:17:07 except you'd think he'd do it a bit better. 02:17:24 oh i remember that, i assumed her name was Elisa Laajakaista 02:17:25 like, actually continue doing it until people believed him. 02:17:29 :D 02:18:06 "broadband" would make a nice nickname for a girl 02:18:29 btw the next "shop" closes in 40 minutes. 02:18:30 so 02:18:33 i need to leave soon 02:18:38 so i can get my satisfaction 02:18:59 yeah you have to work through the snow upwards in both directions 02:19:01 *walk 02:19:15 also work, of course, with those 5 feet 02:19:27 (measurement, not anatomy) 02:19:44 i actually just fetched my bike from my parent's house 02:19:52 so 02:19:54 should be easy. 02:23:30 in seven minutes 02:23:31 i will 02:23:32 go 02:25:49 oerjan is twice the age of oklopol? nice 02:25:59 barnarov, som vi säger på svenska 02:26:23 oklopol isn't a child any longer 02:26:37 maybe not legally 02:27:07 while i am eternally childish 02:27:46 olsner: is that like jb? 02:28:11 well, more like statutory rape I think 02:28:16 oh :P 02:28:24 i.e. it's an act not a person 02:33:48 -!- shapr has joined. 02:33:52 mitta? 02:34:10 Uh? 02:34:20 about 20 inches 02:34:25 oj 02:34:28 shapr! 02:34:30 hai, mimasita? 02:34:45 fuck 02:34:49 hurrrrry -> 02:34:49 pikhq: Hey, you're at an edu address, I thought Finns were not for export? 02:34:54 hej oerjan! 02:35:01 oerjan: Vad gör du? 02:35:04 pikhq is no finn 02:35:10 whew 02:35:12 I was worried for a second. 02:35:18 omtrent ingenting 02:35:18 Actually, that looked like japanese. 02:35:26 It was romanised Japanese. 02:35:36 ok then 02:35:47 "mitta" is "measure" or "length" in finnish. 02:35:58 was that what you were going for? 02:36:04 * oerjan swats oklopol -----### 02:36:04 Actually, I was going for "what?" in Finnish. 02:36:10 thought so 02:36:12 And it's past tense of "to see" in Japanese. 02:36:21 same error as olsner did earlier 02:36:24 Erm. Casual past tense, rather. 02:36:27 and it's the Boston way to talk about things that keep your hands warm. 02:36:39 well. it's that error plus another error 02:36:42 oerjan can correct it 02:36:45 * oklopol goes -> 02:36:45 oklopol: Well, you might know Finnish, but I know... um.. how to UNICYCLE! 02:36:50 ARGH! 02:36:52 i have a unicycle 02:36:55 oh 02:36:58 really? what sort? 02:37:03 the basic kind 02:37:04 * shapr boings cheerfully 02:37:07 20" wheel? 02:37:15 err dunno, ages since i used it 02:37:17 ooh, can I show you pix of my unicycle? 02:37:18 something like that. 02:37:21 sure. 02:37:36 * shapr is getting url.. 02:37:50 "I think we can all learn something from his last words: 'Wow, a unicycle! I haven't seen those since I was a little kid!'" 02:37:54 oklopol: http://picasaweb.google.com/shae.erisson/OakMountainUnicycling# 02:37:54 (i just bought it to learn the skill, i'm not actually that interested in the actual biking...) 02:38:12 looks just like mine 02:38:17 Really? 02:38:28 yeah i recognize the perverted seat 02:38:29 but 02:38:30 seriously 02:38:33 20 minutes 02:38:33 left 02:38:34 26"x3.7" ? 02:38:34 ! 02:38:35 -> 02:38:39 ok, bye 02:38:45 brb. 02:38:45 -> 02:39:09 oklopol is suffering from pizza withdrawal 02:39:16 I see. 02:39:26 I just had a monster fried steak sub, so I am sated. 02:42:24 mountain unicycle, now that sounds like a disaster waiting to happen 02:42:34 It's a lot of fun. 02:42:49 And I bet you're a lot younger now than I was when I learned to unicycle. 02:43:29 <- 38 02:44:17 k, I'm wrong :-) 02:44:23 You are in fact, older than I am now! 02:44:45 as i thought, especially after seeing your picture 02:44:50 fair enough 02:45:35 i'm one of the oldest regulars here though 02:45:48 me too! 02:45:52 er, I'm not a regular 02:45:59 well not _yet_ 02:46:09 but you've been here before :) 02:46:10 Though I'd love to reimplement many of wouter van oortmerssen's languages. 02:46:15 Since he won't release them :-( 02:46:26 oh? 02:46:39 Heck, I'd like to figure out how to get Aardappel to work! 02:46:43 Maybe you guys can tell me? 02:46:58 well not me 02:47:07 someone? anyone? 02:47:19 I guess Haskell no longer counts as an esoteric language? 02:47:30 i'm afraid this is a silent period on this channel 02:47:38 it is quiet 02:47:50 Haskell used to be esoteric! 02:48:06 about seven years ago 02:48:08 we have a bit more stringent definition, usually 02:48:29 What's the stringent definition? 02:48:58 it cannot be intended for practical use 02:49:20 Hm, Haskell wasn't? 02:49:20 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 02:49:31 sure it was? 02:49:54 No, Haskell was designed to be purely a research language.. it was hoped to be an open source version of Miranda. 02:50:06 that's not what i remember reading. 02:50:14 * shapr looks for the hopl paper 02:51:41 Also, it being a research language does not make it esoteric. 02:51:49 It makes it *interesting*. 02:51:49 oh 02:52:13 Of course, a research language could be esoteric without too much effort. 02:52:40 so 02:53:10 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language 02:53:25 that's as close to official as we get here 02:55:18 * oerjan wonders if we should make a less insulting topic 02:58:02 -!- oerjan has set topic: The intergalactic hub for esoteric programming language madness and denuement | Logs: http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki. 03:02:12 shapr: on closer look that looks nothing like mine :D 03:02:17 i was looking at the thumbnails 03:02:22 your wheel is huge. 03:03:23 shapr: Heck, I'd like to figure out how to get Aardappel to work! <<< dl it and run it? 03:04:03 unless you mean you want to learn to program in it, then i suggest you read wouter's paper on it 03:04:04 oklopol: Not that easy 03:04:09 oklopol: I tried that too. 03:04:24 oaky 03:04:52 oklopol: Yeah, 26 inch wheel, 3.7 inches across 03:05:14 so how old were you when you learned to unicycle 03:05:18 32 03:05:34 I started capoeira when I was 37 03:05:34 nice 03:05:57 I emailed Wouter asking for more help using Aardappel, he said to read his thesis. 03:06:37 usually at 30, people work, and don't really live anymore. 03:07:25 heh. 03:07:28 well 03:07:37 so what's the problem with just reading it? 03:07:46 It's not enough. 03:07:55 ah. 03:08:03 Either I'm clueless, or there just isn't any instruction on how to actually write code with Aardappel in his thesis. 03:08:13 The thesis talks about the implementation, lots of cool stuff there. 03:08:19 i was pretty new to all stuff when i was reading it, so i got enough out of it before even getting to the details of aardappel. 03:08:22 But how the heck do I drag the little boxes around to make stuff work? 03:08:30 i was like omg tree rewriting my brain explodes this is so cool. 03:08:34 Wait, you can actually wite code with Aardappel? 03:08:43 i've written some little "snippets" 03:08:48 Wow 03:09:12 This weekend I may bug you to show me how :-) 03:09:19 err, i probably didn't emphasize the "little" enough there 03:09:39 i don't think i've written anything that would even qualify as a useful function. 03:09:43 oklopol: too late, you're the official expert now 03:09:48 :D 03:10:40 * shapr grins 03:11:02 oklopol: How old were you when you learned to unicycle? 03:11:24 shapr: maybe 12 or something 03:11:27 oh 03:11:36 i felt like learning the basic circus stuff 03:11:37 How old are you now? 03:11:41 19 03:11:43 Oh, can you do backflips and stuff? 03:11:56 no, nothing you can't learn gradually. 03:12:30 i learn slowly, but i don't get tired with stuff. 03:12:36 tired? 03:12:44 like 03:12:45 umm 03:12:47 fuck 03:12:49 bored? 03:12:55 i forget words when i learn new stuff. 03:12:55 oh, I see 03:12:56 umm 03:12:57 yeah 03:12:58 you don't lose interest 03:13:02 yeah! 03:13:28 Where are you, Espoo? 03:13:42 turku 03:13:44 ah 03:14:12 I'm in Boston. 03:14:25 like the cigarettes? 03:14:31 It's cold here... not quite Rovaniemi cold, but cold. 03:14:39 Boston smokes? 03:14:40 what? 03:14:49 nm :) 03:34:34 Boston... Nice city. 03:34:41 Not too fond of the weather, though. 03:35:10 Far too hot & humid in the summer. 03:35:19 yes. 03:37:08 pikhq: I'm more of an Alabama kind of guy. 03:37:25 I much prefer Colorado, myself. 03:39:43 * oklopol 's never been to the country 03:40:46 You should try being, say, 100 miles from most everything some day. 03:41:24 i'm already about 5 meters from everything 03:41:38 at least a specific instance of anything of interest 03:46:26 * oerjan recalls a friend telling about an australian bragging how he lived 3 hours drive away from the closest city 03:47:32 however, this friend at the time lived in Svalbard, so he responded that he too lived 3 hours away from the closest city - by jet plane 03:48:03 :D 03:48:12 it's more about where the closest shop is 03:48:21 and where the nearest internet is 03:48:26 you don't need anything else 03:51:32 why don't i drink coffee all day long 03:52:16 i want like a coffee *machine*, like 03:52:21 a thingie that makes me coffee 03:52:22 all day 04:08:23 I lived in Tornio for two years. 04:09:41 I want an espresso machine, myself. 04:09:47 Mmm, espresso... 04:10:18 oerjan: 3 hours away by jet plane? That is rather impressive, I must admit. 04:10:53 i may or may not remember the number right 04:11:20 And looking at the Wikipedia page, I understand how. 04:11:49 Archipelagio halfway between Norway and the North Pole? Damn. 04:12:18 Tornio isn't nearly as remote as Svalbard. 04:12:31 But nowadays, I live about a mile from MIT and a mile from Harvard. 04:12:40 And half a mile from Tufts 04:12:49 and ten minutes drive away from quite a few universities. 04:13:22 Hmm. You'd be right about where I was at last summer... 04:13:46 * pikhq worked at Tufts as an assistant UNIX sys-admin 04:14:45 mit and harvard are that close? 04:14:55 Did you know Dave the sysadmin/IT guy with the blondish ponytail? Just had his first kid? 04:15:00 or do you just live in a very curious location 04:15:12 oklopol: You can almost throw rocks from MIT to Harvard. 04:15:35 I had *met* Dave... 04:15:45 Mostly, I knew Shawn. 04:15:51 do you happen to know how good the harvard cs stuff is? 04:16:02 (I was staying with him, so...) 04:16:05 oklopol: They have some decent type theorists. 04:16:08 pikhq: Ah, I see. 04:16:12 Dave is my next door neighbor. 04:16:20 Huh. 04:16:39 i mean i thought i'd go abroad, but then i learned they study automata here, so now i have no idea what to do. 04:16:56 i mean CA 04:17:17 oklopol: Yeah, MIT and Harvard are very, very close. 04:17:27 Was it one or two stops between them on the Red Line? 04:18:09 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Massachusetts+Institute+of+Tech+(MIT)&daddr=1+Mass+Ave,+Cambridge,+MA+02138+(Harvard+University)&hl=en&geocode=FYNchgIdwS3D-yEGyTcCu2HJiQ%3BCVAVqufD1WnRFa5ShgId_DXD-yFiyQC9d1EFug&mra=pe&mrcr=0&sll=42.365298,-71.101678&sspn=0.031835,0.066004&ie=UTF8&z=18 04:18:33 the red line? seems it's a finnish opera 04:18:45 One of the MBTA's subway lines. 04:19:04 Ok, so you'd need a baseball player to actually hit Harvard from MIT... 04:19:29 hmm. "institute of technology", i've never really even checked what the name comes from. 04:19:35 nice cs in mit? 04:19:44 * shapr shrugs 04:19:53 Damned good, I've heard. 04:19:54 It doesn't impress me, but I like type theory, purely functional lanuages, etc 04:20:30 Not impressed by one of the few US universities to teach CS using Scheme? 04:20:32 i wish there were good objective resources on universities. 04:20:42 pikhq: Oh don't get me wrong, I love SICP. 04:20:56 It's just that computer science means a lot more to me now than it did when I read SICP. 04:21:03 Ah. 04:21:28 oklopol: would you settle for functional ones? 04:21:31 Nowadays I look at Pierce's Types and Programming Languages as the ABCs of computer science. 04:21:44 oerjan: damn should've seen that coming :D 04:21:52 haha 04:22:19 I'd prefer a Homespringative resource on universities, though not for reasons I'm proud of. 04:22:23 yeah it's true there's no reason to teach programming using an actual programming language 04:22:56 well, in fact our advanced programming courses do not use programming languages 04:23:14 Of course, I'd like to take classes in FORTH and type theory at the same time :-) 04:24:16 well there is Chris Diggins's Cat 04:24:26 but we're less of a computation university and more of an application university. 04:28:18 err. 04:28:22 so 6:30 04:28:30 should probably start considering the sleeping. 04:28:42 nakimiin 04:28:44 or maybe the reading. 04:28:50 gönatt 04:28:52 * oerjan is considering, but haven't decided yet 04:28:57 sov gott 04:29:06 etcetera 04:34:43 blah 04:37:08 Man, I went to a gathering of Swedes recently... 04:37:15 so 04:37:31 how come factorials look so nice 04:38:04 they are such pretty numbers 04:38:41 just looking in base 10, but i'm pretty sure they're pretty in other bases too. 04:39:07 um, because they have many factors? 04:40:36 well that's pretty much what i'm asking, how come numbers look pretty when they're very composite 04:40:45 well 04:40:51 in fact that's kinda obvious. 04:41:50 wasn't at first, but i wasn't really aiming for a mathematical question, more like you know aesthetic. 04:41:52 o 04:41:52 o 04:44:52 go-time -> 04:47:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 05:14:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:34:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 05:56:50 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection reset by peer). 05:57:15 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 05:57:39 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:58:02 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 05:58:12 SHAZAM! 05:59:39 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection reset by peer). 06:00:02 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:00:34 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:00:58 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:30:09 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:34:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:34:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Client Quit). 09:46:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:57:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:57:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:05:36 okay that was ...surreal, i lie down for like 20 minutes, thinking what time it is, then, i decide to get up, and halfway through my quick rise into a sitting position the alarm clock starts ringing 10:05:51 oklopol: human instincts are easily trained 10:06:08 if you set your alarm for the same time every day, after a while you'll find yourself waking up pre-emptively to hear it ring 10:06:36 yesterday i set the clock at 7:20 and 19:30, now it was 12:00 10:06:53 well not "at" but anyway 10:08:29 ais523: more ideas? :) 10:09:00 heh, well when I was waking up on alarm clock every day a few years ago, I managed to wake up before the clock no matter when I set it 10:09:07 it's like my body had some sort of internal clock 10:09:09 also, weird times 10:09:11 btw those aren't even exact times, i randomize the last digit pretty uniformly 10:09:43 you don't you an alarm clock anymore? 10:10:01 my parents normally wake me up 10:10:12 because they wake up at much the same time as I want to wake up 10:10:29 ah right 10:10:37 parents are an awesome alarm clock 10:10:47 girlfriends not so much :< 10:11:01 oklopol: do you have a girlfriend? 10:11:11 i have a lot of things 10:11:57 ...i mean yes 10:14:40 he has a slave boy too ;D 10:14:41 <3 10:15:53 so 10:15:59 whats new in the world of esoterics 10:16:27 nothing much, I've been asleep 10:16:31 I slept 16 hours yesterday 10:16:35 well, nothing much from me 10:16:42 fun :) 10:17:07 sleeping is not all that fun. 10:17:13 no its really not 10:17:49 but waking up and then going to sleep again is one of the greatest feelings there are 10:18:10 falling asleep is a wonderful feeling 10:18:15 when you're tired. 10:18:59 well, if you want something new: http://clc.intercal.org.uk/ 10:19:06 CLC-INTERCAL has a spiffy new website 10:19:11 well yes sure, i guess you could generalize it to that 10:19:16 and by spiffy you mean not 10:19:18 i'm just always tired when i wake up. 10:19:22 I didn't have anything to do with that, but I'm probably going to profit from it anyway 10:19:23 who isnt 10:22:34 ais523: ugly page, should invert the colors 10:22:45 or use an interesting background 10:22:48 like i do :D 10:22:49 wellnowwhat.net 10:22:55 yeah yeah we know :) 10:23:06 if I were to make a website about INTERCAL, I'd do something surprising 10:23:09 you know, i get those from glitches my computer has 10:23:14 like flourescent pink with pictures of flowers, or something 10:23:34 or maybe an incredibly flashy flash animationy page 10:23:59 nah, it should work in every browser that became popular ever 10:24:05 including Netscape 1, and Mosaic 10:24:39 you could have ascii animations for ones without a gui 10:26:17 -!- Mony has joined. 10:33:55 so have you ever decided to learn to like a drink that tastes like a rotten space turtle? 10:34:20 no 10:35:08 i mean there's this drink i hate, but it looks so delicious cuz it's all green 10:35:18 * oklopol fetches it 10:51:15 -!- Hiato has joined. 11:04:15 hmm... it's laugh-at-the-name-of-the-next-version-of-Ubuntu time again 11:07:38 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 11:20:40 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 11:21:14 oh? 11:21:19 what is it now? 11:22:14 Karmic Koala 11:22:22 lolololol 11:22:25 that's the version for October 2009 11:22:39 i wonder what Q is going to be 11:22:40 or X 11:29:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:05:20 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:28:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Excess Flood). 12:28:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:59:48 -!- Corun has joined. 13:00:11 -!- jix_ has joined. 13:10:49 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:16:51 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:17:28 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:33:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:37:26 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:41:11 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 13:46:34 -!- ais523 has quit ("going to get lunch"). 13:56:25 -!- Corun has joined. 13:57:10 if you set your alarm for the same time every day, after a while you'll find yourself waking up pre-emptively to hear it ring 13:57:11 used to happen for me 13:57:13 doesn't any more :( 13:57:15 it's like my body had some sort of internal clock 13:57:17 well, uh, it does :P 13:57:31 02:11:11 i have a lot of things 13:57:31 02:11:57 ...i mean yes 13:57:50 the day when a straight answer is gottenered out of oklopol is a day of amazing. 13:59:28 hmm... it's laugh-at-the-name-of-the-next-version-of-Ubuntu time again 13:59:32 i said that yesterday, slowpoke. 14:00:23 pikhq: Hey, you're at an edu address, I thought Finns were not for export? 14:00:30 they fall under cryptography regulations 14:00:39 -!- Hiato has joined. 14:00:40 (due to their language, so obscure that only 5 people can understand it) 14:00:46 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 14:01:16 ooh, can I show you pix of my unicycle? 14:01:18 O.O 14:23:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:24:18 hi ais523 14:24:27 hi 14:26:31 ais523: I dug up your tic tac toe BMP yesterday, and the logs then said you and rodgerthegreat found and/or gates and the like? 14:26:39 I've tried to make a bmp and gate but not much success 14:26:46 not repeatable gates 14:27:24 wans't aiming for repeatbe 14:27:26 repeatable 14:27:47 you basically have to rely on multiple clicks 14:27:53 colouring black/blue/black to set the things off 14:28:09 oh 14:28:13 I was trying to get just input clicks 14:28:13 :( 14:28:19 ais523: I thought of a more useful fill operation that could help: 14:28:31 if you fill black on gray, and there's a line going gray, black, gray 14:28:34 it crosses over the black 14:28:42 i.e., it fills both the colour you're filling and the colour you're filling to 14:28:51 that would be more useful, although not exactly a floodfill 14:29:49 Ask M$ to implement it, we wanna code in Paint 14:30:10 * ais523 considers downloading the source to KolourPaint and tweaking it to do that 14:30:24 incidentally, I updated to KDE 4.2 earlier this morning, haven't tried it out yet 14:30:27 actually, I'm going to do that now 14:30:33 -!- ais523 has quit ("switching to a different window manager"). 14:30:51 shapr: ooh, aardappel 14:30:54 I'ma download it to help you 14:33:37 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:33:45 wb ais523 14:33:53 well, it isn't so broken I can't log into it, that's a start 14:33:58 how many lightyears behind OS X is KDE now? 3? 14:36:29 I haven't really used OSX, so I can't easily compare 14:36:39 so far, I've decided I prefer gksudo to kdesudo 14:36:58 and Kate seems to have disappeared, let me see what happened to it (I suspect it's a Kubuntu packaging screwup) 14:37:05 yowsers, editing Aardappel is hard 14:37:12 languages are text based for a reason... 14:37:26 what about colorforth 14:37:38 that's text-based 14:37:44 the colours are just extra keys :P 14:37:46 but can't be edited with a normal text editor 14:37:52 that isn't what I said 14:39:01 well, what non-text-based languages have I used? 14:39:10 I don't know 14:39:20 Logicator which isn't all that bad, but which is slow and it's a pain to stop wires crossing 14:39:27 Simulink which is awful, in more ways than one 14:39:57 and that circuit editor thing I can't remember the name of which was actually quite good, but was converted into text in the backend I think 14:40:18 nice cs in mit? 14:40:22 from what i've heard it's considered the best 14:40:36 from the stuff that comes/came out of there I'm inclined to agree 14:41:13 as for the look of the thing, I like the window decorations, the widgets for menus and dialog boxes are a bit ugly though 14:41:55 screeny of kde? 14:43:14 let me try to get a good one for you 14:43:21 that also shows the biggest problem for me atm, I wonder if it's fixable 14:43:50 ais523: by the way, Squeak was forked recently to try and remove the educational-child-yaay-fluff and make it not hideous, and integrate better with the host OS 14:44:03 ah, ok 14:44:04 which I think solves quite a lot of your complaints about squeak 14:44:08 screeny: http://pharo-project.org/pictures/41/p1boiza388rvo4mb1h7xxhm8g5ajji/pharo-screenshot-720.png 14:44:17 sorry about the delay, I'm trying to find where the screenshot app/key is on here, I'm not used to it 14:44:22 print scr? 14:44:29 apparently not 14:48:53 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:49:44 ehird: http://filebin.ca/roupsd/kde4.2.png 14:50:06 the K Menu is blatantly stolen from Windows Vista, or vice versa, by the way 14:50:07 hmm. 14:50:11 and tab-complete works cmd-style not sh-style 14:50:21 well, it's prettier than kde3, that's for sure. 14:50:24 if you set your alarm for the same time every day, after a while you'll find yourself waking up pre-emptively to hear it ring 14:50:31 where pressing tab always returns a result, repeating tab returns subsequent results 14:50:33 that blue window shadow/glow is a bit iffy 14:50:39 or rather, pre-emptively to turn it off before it rings 14:50:41 same with those wolverine-style stripes on the title bar 14:50:46 I like those stripes 14:50:47 also, not much distinction between highlighted and not windows? 14:51:04 those maximize/resize buttons look kind of crap 14:51:08 usability-wise 14:51:12 the stripes disappear and the close/restore/maximise buttons are greyed out for an inactive window 14:51:15 small and it's not clear what they do at a glance 14:51:15 otherwise, not much difference 14:51:24 but yeah, wtf is up with that BLUE SHADOW? 14:51:29 but I rarely have trouble working out which window's active anyway 14:52:09 oerjan: i often wake up late, and see my alarm clock has been turned off, but can't really tell whether i turned it off before or after the ring because i have no memory of that. 14:52:17 also, what blue shadow? 14:52:53 ais523: task manager settings 14:52:55 look at the side and top 14:53:03 the shadow is glowing blue. 14:53:08 that's not right. 14:53:20 ah yes, it only seems to happen on overlapping windows 14:53:32 oklopol: that's the reason i started putting the alarm clock too far from the bed to reach 14:53:35 I presume the idea's so you can tell one window apart from the next, but blue is probably the wrong colour 14:53:43 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/20/wikileaks_donor_leak/ hahaha 14:53:54 also, GTK apps seem uglier on KDE4 than QT apps on Gnome 14:54:00 oerjan: i usually use two or three clocks, all randomly placed around the room 14:54:02 ais523: install gtk-qt-theme-engine 14:54:03 thing 14:54:10 because the default to the default Gnome style which is ugly 14:54:11 >_< 14:54:12 it makes gtk apps use your kde theme, not perfectly but decently 14:54:13 i assumed the bluw 14:54:21 ehird: only when on kde, or always? 14:54:27 not sure. 14:54:29 *e was because the background color was used for shadows 14:54:29 I'd like the opposite too, to make kde apps look like gnome when I'm on gnome 14:54:35 that is hard 14:54:37 there's no generic way to do it 14:54:50 but install it, it's in apt-get 14:54:54 ehird: link me an aardappel if you have it open 14:54:56 you configure it via the kde settings panel <-- non intuitive 14:55:08 oklopol: http://strlen.com/aardappel/index.html 14:55:13 http://strlen.com/files/lang/aardappel/aarded.zip 14:55:17 clicky the bat file 14:55:22 and start a new project 14:55:41 it's already installed 14:56:37 hm so aardappel does mean potato 14:56:47 ais523: great, just enable it then 14:56:49 in the kde settings panel 14:56:53 I can't figure out where the settings panel is 14:56:58 I found it in 4.1, but it was broken 14:57:03 here I'm having trouble finding it altogether 14:57:09 heh 14:57:30 hmm... do you think it's under settings, settings, system, or system settings? 14:57:30 I am getting tempted to install kubuntu 14:57:36 someone ought to fix that k menu garble 14:57:46 when's karmickckckckoala out again? 14:57:51 ais523: you want system settings 14:57:57 ehird: it's out in october 14:58:01 ah. 14:58:02 jaunty jackalope's out in april 14:58:09 is that the next release? 14:58:10 aight 14:58:12 yes 14:58:15 karmic's only just been named 14:58:18 it's the next-but-one 14:58:31 ais523: does KDE4.2 have less settingscruft? 14:58:44 I don't know, I can't find it 14:58:47 haha 14:58:49 I meant in general 14:58:51 it isn't under system settings 14:59:08 ais523: you have to click the mouse in the lower left corner, click control shift meta alt and the mouse, move it diagonally to the other corner, release alt and meta, and chant "Ph.nglui mglw.nfah Cthulhu R.lyeh wgah.nagl fhtagn!" before you release the rest 14:59:23 that should do it. 14:59:31 oerjan: I would actually try that, but I might get in trouble chanting here and I'm not sure how to pronounce it 14:59:41 besides, I have super over here not meta, should I press ESC first instead? 14:59:52 do both just to be sure 15:00:17 ais523: just splutter over what you can't pronounce. 15:00:33 ehird: i _really_ don't recommend that with these things. 15:00:45 well, the desktop settings don't seem settingcrufty 15:00:48 there's less there than Gnome 15:00:48 ais523: can you test Jaunty already? 15:00:52 but that's just what I got from right-clicking 15:00:59 ehird: yes, you can set your repos to jaunty and download it 15:01:04 ah 15:01:07 I don't want to risk that without a spare computer, though 15:01:08 I'd rather install jaunty plain 15:01:18 I really want something with 4.2 out of the box, tbh 15:01:22 they haven't packaged it onto install CDs yet, I don't think 15:01:25 upgrading KDE and the like tends to leave cruft around 15:01:29 but I got 4.2 from intrepid-proposed 15:01:47 I generally run -proposed so I can help out Ubuntu with bug reports and fixes before they hit the masses 15:02:44 why don't they build CDs automatically, anyway... 15:02:52 hmm... Dolphin is reminding me surprisingly of Nautilus 15:02:57 ehird: they have to decide what goes on them, I think 15:03:07 isn't Dolphin supposed to be really crap 15:03:08 all the standard packages ofc, but also which nonstandard ones to add 15:03:18 ehird: well, KDE fans seem not to like it 15:03:27 http://dolphin.kde.org/images/home.png 15:03:33 gee, they ripped off Finder wholeslae. 15:03:36 *wholesale 15:03:51 heh, I was going to say the same thing but with Nautilus 15:03:59 so I can only assume that all three file managers work much the same way 15:04:09 ais523: Nautilus is more like the mac os classic filemanager 15:04:16 I know that Nautilus stole the eject buttons next to unmountable things from Mac OS X 15:04:21 but that screen is almost 100% identical to Finder 15:04:27 9except uglier) 15:04:28 *( 15:04:36 apart from the toolbar at the top, it's the same as nautilus too 15:05:05 and you can even get Explorer to do that if you mess around with the settings a bit, but it isn't intelligent enough to figure out how best to do it itself and it looks even uglier 15:05:14 that breadcrumb is nice though 15:05:44 Nautilus has button-shaped breadcrumbs 15:06:01 based on the Gnome principle of making clickable areas as big as you can get away with to make clicking on them faster 15:06:03 probably if I did install linux I'd use a tiling window manager or something 15:06:13 well, Gnome vs. KDE is more than just the window managers 15:06:35 *coleslaw 15:07:03 oerjan: ? 15:07:11 ais523: oh jeez, windows weenies claimed dolphin was copied from Explorer... 15:07:13 ^^^ 15:07:14 now _that's_ plain retarded 15:07:15 http://www.aeroxp.org/board/index.php?showtopic=8352 15:07:44 it's just 3 minutes ago it's not my fault you TALK SO DAMN FAST 15:08:22 oh dear, x11 support on Leopard got worse 15:08:25 specifically, visuals-wise 15:08:35 they forgot to update the quartz-x11 wm to use the new window decorations 15:08:48 so it displays a Tiger-looking window... 15:09:01 and the shadows are all out of place. 15:10:28 hm patent law is going to be (even more) _hell_ once they invent time machines 15:10:32 ais523: from that thread: 15:10:34 "Then again, who needs linux? The ReactOS project (don't laugh!) is doing pretty well." 15:10:37 /facepalm 15:10:50 go ReactOS! 15:11:01 i like reactos, but seriously 15:11:03 look at what he's saying 15:11:09 "We don't need other OSes, because we can clone Windows!" 15:11:19 it has a long way to go, but I'd like to see it eventually do well 15:11:19 "... What, you mean the other OSs are different for a _reason_?" 15:11:25 "HA HA YEAH RIGHT" 15:12:26 hmm... I didn't manage to find the system settings via the menus 15:12:30 so I tried apropos 15:12:36 that failed too, now I'm messing with apt-cache 15:13:08 ais523: do you think kubuntu will recognize my wireless kb/mouse from the livecd? 15:13:15 quite possibly, I don't know 15:13:22 but Ubuntu is pretty good at driver support nowadays 15:13:43 unfortunately not on macs 15:13:51 it is a pain to install linux on them 15:13:53 aha, it wasn't installed 15:14:02 and I know why too 15:14:17 it's because I turned off the automatic changing of which KDE features are installed 15:14:20 * ehird resizes Macintosh HD partition while booted in to it 15:14:25 to get rid of kubuntu's usplash in favour of ubuntu's 15:14:31 ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY 15:14:35 ehird: that's impressive, although I can understand how it's possible 15:15:09 actually, it fails because it's kind of fucked up -- i have a linux swap partition that i can't delete, but every operation fails because when it calls its internal libraries, they say they don't know none 'bout this here "Linux Swap" 15:15:23 presumably you won't have to deal with having ubuntu and kubuntu simultaneously installed, so life will be easier for you 15:15:28 if I remove linux swap, it just comes back again 15:15:40 so I'll have to do some gparteding 15:16:06 wait... 15:16:11 linux still uses x.org 15:16:17 why am I planning to install it 15:16:22 that way lies pain. 15:16:32 does X not detect your screen correctly? 15:16:43 Hardy was much better at detecting my screen than intrepid, by the way 15:16:59 i'm not sure what it does right now, all I know is that every time I try linux, X11 fucks up somehow and I have to edit god damn xorg.conf 15:17:06 I hate that file with the passion of a thousand burning suns 15:17:13 lol: "Ctrl-Alt-Backspace is now disabled, to reduce issues experienced by users who accidentally trigger the key combo. Users who do want this function can enable it in their xorg.conf, or via the command dontzap --disable." 15:17:27 what, really? 15:17:31 in which version of what? 15:17:38 jaunty latest alpha (4) 15:17:42 I need to turn that back on if it's affecting Ubuntu 15:18:50 wow, habits can form so easily 15:19:11 I'm getting utterly confused because when I open windows, they're ending up in a different order on the taskbar relative to where they do in Gnome 15:19:39 ais523: what would be the best way to get a system with kde 4.2? 15:19:43 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 15:20:02 ehird: the advise from slashdot is to install opensuse, IIRC 15:20:11 because they didn't mess up the packaging the same way Kubuntu did 15:20:18 I have no personal experience of this, though 15:20:18 opensuse?!?! 15:20:25 uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. 15:20:28 also, it's advise from slashdot 15:20:31 so probably ignore it 15:20:34 *advice 15:20:40 yeah, to hell with slashdot. 15:20:52 Who Poses the Greatest Threat To Your Privacy? 15:20:55 CowboyNeal 15:21:05 yay, they added back the CowboyNeal option 15:21:09 nope 15:21:13 I was filling in my own answ´r 15:21:15 *answer 15:21:17 it was gone for several months, and there was something of a rebellion brewing 15:21:22 it's not back 15:21:23 ugh, if that option's still gone... 15:21:25 * ais523 seeths 15:21:42 personally I think they should run polls where CowboyNeal is a plausible option even in non-Slashdot concepts 15:21:51 such as "what's your favourite standard Slashdot poll option" 15:23:40 * ehird attempts to make linux swap into an hfs+ partition to remove it 15:24:18 failed :-( 15:24:44 haha 15:24:48 the referee's comments came back from the (3,2) Turing machine paper 15:24:56 and one of them attacked me for numbering conjectures starting at 0 15:25:28 haha 15:25:36 NDA, I assume? because I'd love to hear that 15:25:48 Well, it is true that this Alex Smith is a bit of a queer 15:25:50 well, I haven't signed an NDA 15:25:57 they said that Conway could get away with it but I couldn't 15:26:05 :-D 15:26:13 ais523: are they trying to reject it on that premise? 15:26:17 no 15:26:20 aww 15:26:23 it was the standard reject-with-feedback 15:26:23 would be funny if they did 15:26:25 ah 15:26:36 ais523: wait, wasn't it guaranteed to be in some journal? 15:26:40 wolfram said so anyway 15:26:43 which is the journal method of saying that they want to accept it, but are going to force you to make the changes rather than doing it yourself 15:26:46 maybe. try with the square root as well. i guess you can decompose it. 15:26:56 and it's wolfram's journal, he has a vested interest in having it accepted 15:26:59 (wrong channel) 15:27:01 ah 15:27:03 "mith's Proof (to be published in Complex Systems):" 15:27:12 compelx system's is wolfram's then? 15:27:15 http://www.complex-systems.com/ 15:27:18 considerng that automata 15:27:19 yep 15:27:21 *automaton 15:27:47 I also like the way the referee complains about some of my subsidiary minor results being irrelevant 15:27:53 ais523: http://blog.wolfram.com/images/swolfram/turing_rule.gif <-- this is 2,3? 15:27:55 maybe, but if I can establish a stronger result I may as well 15:28:00 looks like one of the 256 automata 15:28:00 * ais523 looks 15:28:10 Looks like it 15:28:12 that's a compressed version of 2,3's output 15:28:17 right, but that graphic 15:28:25 #ubuntu is so useless 15:28:29 in particular, they only took the steps at which the turing tape head set a record for going left 15:28:33 it's just idiots and stupid qusetions and flood and no help 15:28:40 ehird: I agree, it's more useful when I'm on there helping people 15:28:42 which is rarely 15:28:46 oi, get in there :P 15:29:01 it's disappointing that the average competence level goes up when I ask for help and stick around later... 15:29:23 Whoa! 15:29:25 Calamari is in there. 15:29:31 He just asked a question. 15:29:48 maybe I should join, but that would distract me 15:30:03 What's the easiest way to get an Ubuntu system with kde 4.2, from scratch? 15:30:07 was my question 15:30:45 * ais523 vaguely wonders what would happen if you installed Debian minimal web-install, pointed the repos at kubuntu intrepid proposed, and did a dist-upgrade 15:30:59 it'd work, but probably not as sleek as a desktop release 15:31:42 wow, wolfram is more on crack than I realised 15:31:42 No doubt it’ll be possible to find much better compilers, that make much better code. 15:31:42 And that’ll be interesting. Perhaps one day there’ll even be practical molecular computers built from this very 2,3 Turing machine. 15:31:51 no, there is no fucking way the 2,3 machine is practical, stop smoking 15:31:59 you're hurting my brain cells 15:32:07 everything in kubuntu is depended on by the kubuntu-desktop package, IIRC 15:32:12 ehird: I agree, I think 15:32:21 ais523: isn't there a minimal ubuntu install? 15:32:22 O(2^2^n) is not practical from anyone's point of view 15:32:30 ehird: there's the ubuntu alternate install CD 15:32:33 which does more or less anything 15:32:35 that's not minimal 15:32:40 the CD itself isn't, no 15:32:43 ais523: can you tweak it to install from another repo 15:32:46 but I suspect minimal install would be in the options somewhere 15:32:59 [[We don’t have to carefully build things up with engineering. We can just go out and search in the computational universe, and find things like universal computers—that are simple enough that we can imagine making them out of molecules.]] 15:33:03 err, you freaking invented them 15:33:12 you didn't find them in the goddamn bushes 15:33:17 anyway, I think by far the easiest way is to install kubuntu intrepid, set the repo to -proposed and install updates 15:33:23 that's the way it's meant to work 15:33:31 alrighty 15:33:50 * ehird clicks 64 bit download and feels smug 15:33:57 REAL CPUS lolz 15:34:20 agh, slow download 15:34:25 * ehird gets it from germany instead 15:34:29 germany have fast interwebs 15:34:35 i hate mirror selections 15:34:37 JUST PICK ONE FOR ME 15:34:52 yes, I normally use German mirrors, either that or the one at Oxford University 15:35:01 picking one closest to you is in fact the worst thing you can do... 15:35:03 but the Oxford mirror doesn't have all the packages I think 15:35:10 because 15:35:12 ? 15:35:22 they're always slower than ones from countries just a few hops away from you 15:35:34 ah, bandwidth? 15:35:53 ais523: It's because more people from the UK access sites in the UK, so the UK tubes are clogged :P 15:36:31 aha 15:36:33 500 KB/sec 15:36:45 from Italy's GARR/CILEA mirror service 15:37:01 ehird: actually, that bullshit could be correct depending on how the peering agreements are set up 15:37:10 although probably in this case it isn't 15:37:40 it's the kind of thing that's totally wrong, but calculations you can make from it tend to be right in practice 15:37:49 it leads you to the right results in the wrong way 15:38:42 ais523: by the way, I did some research with #lisp the other day 15:38:46 Symbolics do still sell lisp machines 15:38:51 although obviously they don't _make_ new ones any more 15:39:01 you have to contact their sales address 15:39:04 (email :P) 15:39:12 and shipping makes buying prohibitive unless you live close 15:39:19 ais523: http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt 15:39:28 the neweest machine they have = $3500 15:39:40 one down (runs on a modified old Mac) = $3200 15:39:44 that's not that expensive 15:39:48 same as above but less spec = $1200 15:39:49 for something that specialised 15:39:54 really old = $675 15:39:59 and yes, they're good prices 15:40:15 but you have to go and get it yourself really, otherwise shipping would be crazy 15:40:37 ais523: something I found amusing -- their sales guy commented on the torrent for their OpenGenera development environment (ported to linux) 15:40:37 how's your VHDLing going? 15:40:40 which had all the leaked source code 15:40:43 dkschmidt at 2007-08-15 02:24 CET: 15:40:48 Congratulations on downloading the finest software development environment ever created. If you want to find out more about Genera or would like to have a Symbolics Lisp Machine, check out the Symbolics website at www.symbolics.com or contact sales@symbolics.com. 15:40:49 a true salesman 15:40:57 yes, classic 15:41:04 and probably the best reaction 15:41:24 yeah, it's not like symbolics are gonna be operating at a profit these days 15:41:39 nothing they sell interests more than about 100 people in the world 15:41:52 symbolics.com is the oldest registered domain, BTW 15:41:55 registered in 1985 15:42:02 and it has run continuously 15:42:14 well, .com 15:42:18 there might have been .orgs before that 15:42:23 and possibly .nets for infrastructure 15:42:24 not sure 15:42:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:3600-front.jpg 15:42:53 the $3500 compy 15:43:01 apparently they're very, very lou 15:43:01 d 15:43:10 most people put them in another room and hook up the terminal with a long cable, IIRC 15:43:35 heh 15:43:38 what makes them so noisy? 15:43:40 wait, no 15:43:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Symbolics3640.JPG 15:43:44 that's the $3500 one 15:43:48 ais523: well, they're 80s hardware 15:43:54 and they aren't micropcs, they predate that 15:43:59 minicomputers 15:44:00 ? 15:44:02 err, yes 15:44:12 ais523: I think they were the first "single-user" machines after the mainframe boom 15:44:29 so it was just the power fit into the small space and stuff like that 15:46:14 ah, that's better 15:46:18 Hm? 15:46:23 for some reason Konqueror didn't have a "back" button by default 15:46:27 haha 15:46:27 I reset it to defaults, then it did 15:46:34 so either configuration borkage or packaging borkage 15:46:48 funnily enough, the reason lisp machines were single-user was because it was easier to implement 15:46:54 and let them put in less safety checks 15:46:58 (to avoid, e.g. people crashing it) 15:47:01 reminds me of DOS 15:48:19 i think I might write a program to generate tons of combinators 15:49:01 ais523: by the way, I refound ninjacode yesterday and sgeo told me to revive it 15:49:02 should I? 15:49:09 well, KDE4.2 still seems to have the usual huge set of settings 15:49:15 ehird: yes if you think you can make it work 15:49:15 oh dear :P 15:49:23 ais523: does it have gtk/qt ones 15:49:27 also, I think I can 15:49:32 on the other hand, I rather like that, for me it's what makes KDE KDE 15:50:04 ninjacode linecounter: 15:50:05 0=~1+.' C~. 15:50:07 remember that? :D 15:50:11 er wait 15:50:12 no 15:50:14 0=~1+.' C~ 15:50:27 {'{C:.'}C.}'{C:.'}C. 15:50:29 quine 15:50:34 hmm... how short can I get the linecounter in Perl? 15:50:38 (same principle as underload quine) 15:50:46 say scalar<> 15:50:46 12 chars in Perl 15:50:53 how many is it in ninjacode? 15:50:54 oh that's not the same 15:51:05 ais523: this adds line counts 15:51:05 a\nb\nc -> 1 a\n2 b\n3 c 15:51:06 oh, what's the ninjacode doing? 15:51:07 numbering lines? 15:51:09 ah 15:51:28 perl -pe '$_="$..$_"' 15:51:32 I think 15:51:37 perl -pe '$_="$.. $_"' 15:51:38 0=~1+.' C~ <- = is like perl -p, it runs the rest of the program with the next line on TOS, then prints TOS and goes a gain 15:51:52 ~ is swap, . is print, 'c is the num of character c, C prints a character out from its number 15:52:01 from that it should be fairly clear how that works 15:52:12 ais523: so as an actual program: 15:52:15 #!perl -p 15:52:20 $_="$.. $_" 15:52:29 yes 15:52:32 ninjacode wins hands-down, then 15:52:36 although, = as a filter is kind of stupid 15:52:39 as it should be equality 15:52:46 whatever, it's the principle of the thing 15:53:17 I wonder if I should add bitwise-XOR to Underlambda as a one-char operator not a library keyword? 15:53:29 that way, it could be used for equality tests the same way subtraction can be used for greater-than 15:53:38 heh 15:53:41 (subtraction in Underlambda saturates at 0) 15:54:00 kubuntu downloaded! 15:54:05 the 64 bit version works fine right? 15:54:18 yes 15:54:45 ais523: parsing ninjacode is very TC, by the way 15:54:59 as you can extend the parser in arbitrary ways, and it always picks the longest matching symbol name 15:55:00 specifically 15:55:08 parsing underlambda will be relatively trivial, but not as easy as underload 15:55:10 {+ is {+ if {+ is defined, otherwise it's {, + 15:55:18 an exception is made for alphanumerics 15:55:22 in that foo is always foo 15:55:27 although foo+ can be foo+ or foo,+ 15:55:29 ehird: if {+ and +% are defined, but {+% isn't, what does {+% parse as? 15:55:31 and, 15:55:39 you can require libraries that do this kind of stuff to the parser at any time 15:55:42 including in e.g. conditionals 15:55:52 thus, you CAN compile it, but only if you disallow tricksy includes 15:55:59 but full ninjacode is Very Highly Unparsable 15:56:04 you can't even parse a file at a time 15:56:10 it has to be one token at a time 15:56:17 ais523: {+, % 15:56:45 ehird: because? 15:56:49 ais523: it sees {+, all going good, then %, oops {+% isn't defined, break here, {+, % 15:56:54 ah, ok 15:57:04 what about {+%} when {+ and +%} are defined? 15:57:04 it parses left-to-right, top-to-bottom because the syntax can change at any time 15:57:05 so this is consistent 15:57:07 {+, %, } 15:57:09 presumably 15:57:16 ais523: {+, %, }, yep 15:57:27 but generally you shouldn't use names that aren't defined :P 15:58:19 ugh, the only blank cd I can find is dusty as hell 15:58:23 do they have a default meaning? 15:58:40 ais523: trigger an error 15:58:41 ehird: ugh, you mean Macs can't install operating systems without rebooting? 15:58:48 lol wat :D 15:59:03 given that you're installing onto a different partition, in theory it ought to be possible 15:59:07 using virtualisation or something 15:59:15 ais523: that'd mess up hardware detection 15:59:22 * ehird just uses a dvd-writable 15:59:26 I feel kind of bad, but I have like 100 :P 16:00:12 ugh, they're in unopenable packaging 16:01:51 there we go 16:02:03 BUUUUUUUUURN 16:02:19 putting 700 MB on a 4.7GB disk feels kind of silly 16:02:21 :| 16:02:22 * ehird <- silly 16:02:31 you'll still have the rest left to put things on 16:02:50 ais523: well, yes, this is a rewritable disk, but err 16:03:00 you know that regular CDs/DVDs only burn once right? 16:03:03 ehird: wrong 16:03:08 I've burnt a CD-R more than once 16:03:12 o_O 16:03:12 you can burn into the unused space 16:03:16 unsupported-ly, I assume. 16:03:19 although you can't overwrite what you've already burntt 16:03:21 it is supported 16:03:28 I did this using Windows XP's out-of-the-box CD burner 16:04:03 when accessing a recordable CD, drives look past the end of the burnt area to see if anything's been burnt there 16:04:11 so that the multiple-burning thing works 16:04:23 you lose some space (a few KB I think) in overhead every time you burn, though 16:04:57 I hope the burn/reboot cycle is fixed sometime 16:05:08 what fix do you imagine? 16:05:11 like, have special hardware that you copy an ISO to, and it mounts it, somehow 16:05:19 so you just download the ISO, click, reboot 16:05:22 and it's there as a drive 16:05:44 maybe a very small virtualiser in firmware 16:05:52 mm 16:07:27 13:17:35 important decision: what should we parse the code into? 16:07:27 13:18:51 ais523: CLASSES 16:07:27 13:19:01 LISTS 16:07:27 13:19:06 MORE NORMALIZED STRINGS 16:07:48 FILESYSTEMS! 16:08:06 FUNCTIONS! 16:08:43 COMPONENTALIZED VISUAL ACTIVEX COMPONENTS! 16:09:12 CPUS FABRICATED ON-THE-FLY TO PROCESS THE DATA! 16:09:24 KITTENS! 16:09:31 because everyone likes kittens, obviously 16:09:34 MP3 PLAYERS! 16:09:40 CHAIRS!!! 16:09:50 all built to one design 16:09:56 the errors in each one from the design represent the bit patterns 16:10:00 of the in-memory representation 16:10:01 of the parse tree 16:10:08 heh, reminds me of that esolang which is disguised as pip 16:10:09 *pi 16:10:51 Righty ho, I will now reboot. 16:11:01 I expect to be conversing with you while installing Kubuntu. 16:11:07 If I am not, I will flame Ubuntu when I return. 16:11:09 yay for liveCDs 16:11:17 FLAME PREPARATION -> 16:12:35 FLAME ON 16:13:11 well there's a nice homomorphism from code to the empty program. 16:13:25 indeed there is 16:13:42 it even preserves sequential composition 16:14:13 well for some languages that is 16:14:33 it may also preserve quine-ness 16:15:36 yeah 16:15:40 so, that's my suggestion. 16:16:13 and it can be used to strip comments 16:16:48 not to mention the compression. 16:17:21 it also gives a 100% reduction in execution time 16:17:32 yeah 16:17:44 well asymptotically 16:18:32 oh and it gives very good encryption 16:19:01 you'd really wonder why it isn't used more often 16:19:38 (guaranteed unbreakable, no silly P=NP assumptions) 16:19:44 oerjan: unfortunately, on some programs it introduces bugs where they don't do what they're meant to do 16:19:47 */= 16:19:53 ah. 16:20:09 well that's true, on the other hand it also removes most bugs 16:22:25 ais523: Disappointing. 16:22:27 It booted up fine, I selected try out, it booted into KDE. My mouse and keyboard are then sterile. (It only worked at bootup because of bios compatibility layer stuff) 16:22:40 pity 16:22:45 Fixable, I am sure. 16:22:51 But not very out of the box. 16:23:06 I used to use a wireless mouse, and it worked just fine in Ubuntu 16:23:09 -!- k2 has joined. 16:23:14 but threw it away because I was bored of replacing the batteries 16:23:37 -!- kar8nga has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:23:39 this mightymouse has fallen on the floor many times and its battery life is painfully short because of that 16:23:39 -!- k2 has changed nick to kar8nga. 16:23:41 also, scratches 16:23:56 it's still better than other mice, though... 16:24:44 ugh, they recommend rEFIt for booting 16:24:48 but rEFIt slows down the boot and is slow 16:27:23 [16:27:18] i cant under stand ..................................................its tu tu that ,,,,,,, 16:27:29 popular channels are painful. 16:28:45 ehird: are you online from Mac OS X atm? 16:28:48 yep 16:29:00 * ehird bets he gets an answer starting "First, click" 16:30:16 http://www.geekaholic.org/2008/04/good-bye-gentoo-hello-leopard.html <-- worst april fools ever 16:30:32 it's a reasonable, well-thought out post on why switching to leopard could make sense. ha! ha! HHAHAHA! 16:32:26 ais523: welp, looks like I need to use my usb mouse/kb 16:33:23 yeah you should definitely use your mouse to kickban umar 16:33:28 :D 16:33:44 ais523: do you know how horrific rEFIt is? 16:33:51 I've seen it 16:34:04 it seems slightly pointless given that it just chains into GRUB for anything but boot-to-Mac 16:34:07 it looks pretty, though 16:34:10 first, you get a horrible screen on startup with the kind of icons linux users make that they think look like os x because they have lens flares on them 16:34:14 then, to boot into linux, 16:34:16 it BOOTS INTO LILO 16:34:17 seriously 16:34:23 it goes rEFIt -> lilo -> linux 16:34:30 yes, I know about the chaining 16:34:36 it's awful. awful awful awful. 16:34:36 the example I saw was worse, though 16:34:38 and lilo is awful. 16:34:50 hmmm 16:34:52 it was refit -> mac os x, or alternatively you could choose windows or linux 16:35:04 and whichever you chose, it went to a grub menu where you chose windows/linux 16:35:07 maybe I could make bootcamp work... 16:35:17 that uses the regular mac bootloader 16:35:27 and lets you hold down option at the bootup screen to choose mac / "windows" 16:35:28 and defaults to mac 16:35:35 = same speed, no lilo, etc 16:35:45 yep 16:35:46 seems it works 16:35:49 ^_^ 16:35:51 ugh 16:35:52 I hate that smiley 16:35:54 why did I type it 16:37:22 I like how leopard comes with boot camp 16:37:32 how many other OSes include fully-developed tools to run other OSes? 16:37:57 well, there's Wubi, I'm not sure what you count that as though 16:38:03 does that come with windows 16:38:04 no 16:38:20 ok, I'm going to boot into kubuntu livecd again to delete the swap partition, reboot into OS X, run boot camp, then install kubuntu 16:38:25 I like the way that the Windows and Linux filesystems each think the other's filesystem is inside their own 16:38:26 as soon as I get my USB stuffs 16:38:36 ais523: klein filesystem 16:38:44 yep 16:38:49 wubi is stupid as a long-term system, anyway 16:39:00 although physically the linux system's inside the windows system, as the windows system ends up in /dev 16:39:05 and needs mounting 16:39:13 and why do you say that about wubi? 16:39:24 because you're just living on top of windows 16:39:26 = overhead 16:39:29 = second-class citizen 16:39:47 it's not living on top 16:40:12 it's an entirely separate OS, it just installs itself into the location on the disk where windows would expect applications to be installed, and adds registry entries 16:40:20 if you boot into linux with wubi, windows has nothing to do with anything 16:40:21 right 16:40:22 but it's NTFS 16:40:24 apart from the filesystem being ntfs 16:41:46 ugh, perl.org's still down 16:41:47 "klein filesystem"? 16:42:51 eine kleine filesystem 16:44:03 testing 16:44:04 are filesystems really female? 16:44:10 no they are neutral 16:44:19 i thought it was some kinda term 16:44:22 okay, horrible usb kb & mouse in operation 16:44:23 for that phenomenon 16:44:27 but google knows it not. 16:44:40 klein bottle 16:44:43 oh 16:45:36 okay guyz 16:45:37 livecd --> 16:49:18 -!- k2 has joined. 16:49:24 -!- kar8nga has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:49:28 -!- k2 has changed nick to kar8nga. 16:54:52 -!- ehirdbuntu has joined. 16:55:11 great success! 16:55:12 install time 16:56:31 no wait 16:56:32 gparted time 16:56:33 ehirdbuntu: is the wireless working too? 16:56:37 wait I don't have gparted 16:56:41 ais523: I use a wired connection 16:58:00 -!- ais523 has quit. 16:58:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:58:27 there, swap partition deleted, os x time so I can run boot camp -> 16:59:16 no wait, it wants a root partition to continue, argh! 16:59:52 ais523: can you type hash-kubuntu for me? there's no hash key here... 16:59:59 #kubuntu 17:00:02 and isn't it on shift-3? 17:00:10 that's where it is on a US keyboard 17:00:21 nope 17:00:23 grah! 17:00:26 it wants me to join ubuntu 17:00:28 the proxy users channel 17:00:29 not kubuntu... 17:01:43 ais523: do you know how to partition edit on kubuntu livecd without installing? :P 17:01:58 not off the top of my head 17:02:23 also, the new startup menu is very nice 17:02:31 it's a blend of the windows start menu and the os x spotlight 17:02:31 ehirdbuntu: try ktparted rather than gparted? 17:02:38 *qtparted 17:02:44 not installed either 17:02:45 the gnome partition editor is unlikely to be on a KDE system 17:02:55 the installer has one 17:02:56 what about just parted? 17:03:11 works, but has the hideous console interface :-D 17:03:32 eh I'll use it 17:04:43 how do I save changes in parted? 17:05:21 I don't know 17:05:32 do you want me to look it up? 17:05:38 nope, I figured it out 17:05:41 also, I have google here too 17:05:53 reboot --> 17:09:19 -!- ehirdbuntu has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 17:14:31 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 17:15:09 -!- Wamanuz2 has left (?). 17:19:13 ais523: how much space do you think I should give ubuntu? 17:19:15 boot camp gives 5gb by default, which would leave me ~3gb of space for documents 17:19:29 10gb for ubuntu would leave 64gb free on OS X 17:19:31 vs 74gb now, ofc 17:19:56 well, it depends on how many documents you're storing on each side 17:20:05 5gb seems about right, you'll want your documents on the mac side, probably 17:20:10 likely not much on linux, I'm only going to be using it for coding and messing about 17:20:17 yeah, 10gb would leave more room for expansion though 17:20:22 and still leave me a lot on os x side 17:23:48 I'll go for 10gb 17:28:23 parittioneratering 17:28:28 partitioning takes far too long 17:28:36 I'm not surprised 17:28:46 it has to move a lot of thigns around 17:31:43 nope, no moving 17:31:49 all the space it's using was free 17:31:58 hmm it says you need 32-bit windows 17:32:05 it should work with 64 bit linux 17:32:05 meh 17:32:09 restarty-> 17:35:18 -!- Mony has joined. 17:38:32 -!- ehirdbuntu has joined. 17:38:43 install go 17:38:54 what are you going to talk about during the install? 17:39:18 i thought tic-tac-toe was the game of choice these days 17:39:45 ais523: the install. 17:39:50 ok 17:40:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:40:28 what swap space is recommended? I have 2.5gb ram 17:40:33 half yoru ram, right? 17:40:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:40:59 half your ram is usual 17:41:26 nowadays it doesn't really matter if you set it to 0 or your entire drive, until the point where you run out of memory altogether 17:42:03 ext3 is the recommended fs still, right? 17:42:11 yep 17:42:19 although it'll probably be ext4 in a year, once that's stable 17:43:44 * ehirdbuntu resizes 10gb hd to be 10gb-(2.5/2)gb 17:43:51 fun fun 17:43:55 i recently learned to play infinite board tic tac toe in my head, but somehow i think it's less impressive on irc 17:44:07 oklopol: have you ever played 4 dimensional tic tac toe? 17:44:14 it works pretty well on a 4x4x4x4 board 17:44:29 ais523: i've played infinite dimensional tic tac toe. 17:44:36 I wondered about that 17:44:43 but limiting the size of the board makes it work better 17:44:49 i had a bot for that here once 17:44:53 maybe. 17:44:58 as for infinite board, how many in a row do you play? 5, like the japanese do? 17:45:06 * oerjan vaguely recalls that. 17:45:10 5 17:45:11 they play on a 19x19 board but it may as well be infinite, players rarely reach the edges 17:45:17 the japanese and the finnish 17:45:24 and do you play the 3-3 / 4-4 barring rules? 17:45:26 no one plays the 3x3 tic tac toe, it's stupid 17:45:32 err 17:45:35 i don't know what those are 17:45:45 it's a technique to remove the first player advantage 17:45:51 nh 17:46:06 a four is any position where you could add one counter and get five in a row 17:46:29 "remove it", has that been proven? 17:46:33 a three is any position where you can make a four which has two locations to add the final counter by adding one counter 17:46:37 that all games are draws with it 17:46:41 oklopol: it doesn't manage it perfectly, but it reduces it somewhat 17:46:45 right 17:47:05 i mean it's a solved game, so could've been proven 17:47:05 the rules say that the first player (but not the second player) can't play a move that simultaneously creates two threes, and can't play a move that simultaneously creates two fours 17:47:21 apparently the first player still has an advantage even after that 17:47:36 so some groups also play that the first player can't get 6 or more in a row 17:47:45 heh. 17:48:00 well i suck at the game, just like i suck in most games 17:48:08 (like integration, grrrr) 17:51:15 quick hostname! 17:51:28 I'm thinking killer butterfly, or criminal lightbulb, or kitten. 17:51:32 fthagn! 17:51:35 or kitten with attached laser 17:51:38 oerjan: haha yes 17:51:47 thankees 17:52:00 er, fhtagn 17:52:01 why fthagn? 17:52:09 or fhtagn? 17:52:12 ais523: cthulhu fhtagn, duh 17:52:17 linux is dark magic 17:52:36 "cthulhu sneezes" 17:53:17 this is disturbing, the number of google hits is about the same for those 17:53:32 hi 17:53:47 what, people can't spell "fhtagn"? well yeah that is pretty disturbing 17:53:50 also 17:54:01 i have a bad feeling the shop closes at 20 and not at 21... 17:54:13 i mean it has to, since it's nearly 20 already 17:54:19 ext3 is the recommended fs still, right? <-- in case you are interested I usually use ext3 for / and /boot, and xfs for the rest (/home /var /usr, and /opt is symlinked to /usr/opt) 17:54:32 yeah i'm doing one partition. 17:54:33 that's how shops work, they close when you decide to go to them. 17:54:35 ah ok 17:54:43 ehirdbuntu, I usually use LVM too :) 17:54:44 AnMaster: well, even if you're correct, and you probably are, ehirdbuntu is going to disagree with you on principle 17:55:39 ais523, well I find that xfs has what I want from ext4 but is a lot more well tested and stable. Stuff like defrag and such. Not that xfs gets as fragmented as ext3... 17:55:55 and not that ext3 gets fragmented enough to matter anyway 17:56:04 and last I looked online defrag was still not completed for ext4 17:56:15 it's funny how ais523 has started commenting like that just after ehird actually started deserving it much less. maybe it's just so ais523 wouldn't be right, dunno, still funny. 17:56:15 besides, it's well known that tar is a pretty effective defragmenter 17:56:18 ais523, depends, I had some partitions manage that fine, while other got super-fragmented 17:56:20 tarball your filesystem, untar it again 17:56:40 i mean he did not disagree with AnMaster on principle there for instance 17:57:09 also there is no single best FS for everyone IMO. People use computers in different ways 17:57:12 and have different needs 17:57:16 yes 17:57:20 oklopol: stop talking bullshit! 17:57:23 although I imagine most of them are better than bffs 17:58:03 ais523, however I can say ext3 gets fragmented for /usr/portage on gentoo. Lots of small files (so I use a smaller than usual block size for it on xfs to not waste space). 17:58:05 oerjan: i cannot, i like noticing patterns in how people respond to patterns in other people. 17:58:08 is updated with rsync 17:58:43 * AnMaster checks something 17:58:43 hm wp uses fhtagn 17:58:53 find /usr/portage -type f | wc -l 17:58:53 111952 17:59:02 du -sh /usr/portage 17:59:02 253M /usr/portage 17:59:23 ais523, that is on xfs since with ext3 it got very slow and fragmented 18:00:06 also I have a special partition for it, due to the very different usage pattern for it compared to the rest of /usr 18:00:21 why is portage directly under /usr by the way? 18:00:39 ais523, why is the default location /usr/ports on freebsd? 18:00:44 for it's ports tree 18:00:52 I'd expect it to be inside /usr/share somewhere, or maybe even /var 18:00:54 both fill the same purpose basically 18:01:04 although /usr makes more sense I suppose as you're editing /usr anyway 18:01:33 ais523, you could change the location in /etc/make.conf 18:01:35 if you wanted 18:01:38 those who know me will know i hate all filesystems. 18:01:47 even git? 18:01:49 ehird, what do you suggest instead? 18:01:57 ais523: git is nice ... for a filesystem. 18:01:58 err is git a file system? 18:02:02 yes 18:02:06 a user-space one, albeit 18:02:09 that rides on top of another 18:02:13 it has all the features a filesystem needs 18:02:17 so how is it not a filesystem? 18:02:36 AnMaster: as for what I suggest instead -- I'll elaborate when I have my regular kb back 18:02:37 ais523, one thing IMO: It needs to run on another file system for the actual data storage 18:02:44 you can't mkfs.git 18:02:54 but I guess that depends on how you define fs 18:02:57 unionfs and such 18:03:09 so yeah it could be considered a fs 18:03:24 well, the working tree isn't git 18:03:26 ehird, kb? knowledge base? kickban? 18:03:26 git is in .git/ 18:03:42 instead of storing its metadata in sectors, it stores them in host files 18:03:44 AnMaster: keyboard. 18:03:47 ah 18:03:48 i'm using a usb one for kubuntu 18:03:51 I see 18:05:33 ehird, hm still changing from using n files to 1 raw linear block device is not that trivial... Since suddenly you need to handle "next block is already used for something else". Which is handled by the filesystem otherwise. In fact it is one of the important tasks for a "traditional" file system. 18:05:46 look in a .git directory sometime 18:05:48 so I guess it is a filesystem more like unionfs is one 18:05:56 you'll see the likeness to an fs, almost certainly 18:06:00 ehird, I did once, but yeah it was ages ago 18:06:11 plus, the general structure is fs-like 18:06:14 sure, it has vcs commands on top 18:06:18 but if you look at the primitive docs 18:06:21 it's like super-fsck 18:06:24 raw fs manipulation 18:06:25 $ ls ~/src/pahole/.git/ 18:06:25 FETCH_HEAD HEAD ORIG_HEAD branches config description hooks index info logs objects refs 18:06:26 hm? 18:06:33 poke around the files 18:06:39 e.g. objects, refs 18:06:42 those are the most fs like parts 18:06:44 iirc 18:07:40 $ ls objects/ 18:07:40 00 05 10 18 20 2a 32 37 3f 44 4d 56 60 [... more of the same cut here, lots more, but don't want to spam too much on irc ...] info pack 18:07:55 try cat as well as ls :P 18:08:03 BRING ME HIS HEAD 18:08:16 ehird, from file (and I suspect it is wrong): 18:08:17 objects/ad/635812a04ef5b45dddc8386e0b9dbe7bc56435: VAX COFF executable - version 8256 18:08:17 objects/ad/b9d370d66c4ea6655c61e17a187b1eaa804dea: VAX COFF executable not stripped 18:08:17 objects/b1/145b6715205d42d6a1f4ce9ddd7a061018be0e: VAX COFF executable - version 21221 18:08:20 no way 18:08:24 haha 18:08:28 vax cough 18:08:36 pahole is a kernel.org project, lots of source, no executables 18:08:44 so I guess compressed in some way 18:09:04 open an editor on them :P 18:09:10 AnMaster: that version looks like VMS version number to me 18:09:16 21221... that's one heavily modified file 18:09:17 :-D 18:09:37 ehird, file thinks everything in objects/[:xdigit:]/* is various variants of VAX COFF executable 18:09:57 ehirdbuntu: well with all that coughing there have probably been a constant stream of virus on it 18:10:07 objects/2d/8c3aff822c2d0c924600e0ebe82a18df28013e: VAX COFF executable not stripped - version 24267 18:10:10 *es 18:10:11 objects/24/d209abe394af6b364e07e78a8712efb80fc17c: VAX COFF executable 18:10:13 and so on 18:10:29 ehird, the stuff in objects/pack/: 18:10:35 objects/pack/pack-33e576f64aedf6aed156f3ccdabdbc445b9317b5.idx: data 18:10:35 objects/pack/pack-33e576f64aedf6aed156f3ccdabdbc445b9317b5.pack: Quake I or II world or extension 18:10:35 objects/pack/pack-873f1ade3da35d4dfb915611ffd24243e73f0025.idx: data 18:10:35 objects/pack/pack-873f1ade3da35d4dfb915611ffd24243e73f0025.pack: Quake I or II world or extension 18:10:36 :D 18:10:50 kernel devs hide their quake modz in git files, yep 18:10:57 ehird, either git is worse than I thought or... 18:11:00 hah 18:11:15 see: reflections on trusting trust 18:11:18 they did that with the git sources 18:11:22 did you say I should look at refs too? 18:11:23 or? 18:11:23 to add a quake-mod-stashing system 18:11:26 yes 18:11:36 $ ls refs/ 18:11:36 heads remotes tags 18:11:37 mhm 18:11:57 -!- Corun has joined. 18:12:12 ehirdbuntu, btw I haven't done anything but some git pull on this repo, no commits or such 18:12:23 same as if you comitted a lot 18:12:26 since your commits = everyone else's 18:12:43 well refs is all ASCII 18:13:10 http://steike.com/code/useless/zip-file-quine/ :) 18:13:18 refs/tags/v1.0 refs/tags/v1.1 refs/tags/v1.2 refs/tags/v1.3 refs/tags/v1.4 refs/tags/v1.5 refs/tags/v1.6 refs/remotes/origin/HEAD refs/remotes/origin/master refs/heads/master 18:13:25 that's all 18:13:37 seems to contain revision IDS 18:13:38 IDs* 18:13:47 restart into ewwbuntu hopefully -> 18:13:48 sha256 style I think? 18:16:39 -!- ehirdbuntu has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 18:25:22 -!- oerjan has quit ("Possibly!"). 18:34:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:37:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:43:32 hi ais523 18:43:34 does konversation look kde3-style to you too/ 18:43:36 :\ 18:45:00 ping 18:46:58 ais523: 18:49:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:05:22 bbl food 19:06:18 o 19:23:42 [19:23] !hi | rapha 19:23:43 [19:23] rapha: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu! 19:23:45 {{welcome}} 19:27:06 From that screenshot, it definitely looks KDE3-style :P 19:27:26 ? 19:27:37 woo apple keyboard works 19:27:39 now: mouse 19:29:49 Why would anybody voluntarily use an Apple keyboard ... I've never used an Apple keyboard that wasn't a miserable pile of crap. 19:30:10 ... wow ... poor you. The 2006 and 2007 apple keyboards are absolutely perfect. 19:30:20 Sure, every one before that was god-awful... 19:30:29 But these are the best keyboards I've ever used (and I've used a model M.) 19:31:02 Whee, mouse works too. 19:31:46 I don't exactly know what keyboards Apple was cranking out each year :P 19:31:52 :P 19:32:23 Picture? URL? Something? 19:34:20 Picture: 19:34:39 GregorR: http://www.purelygadgets.co.uk/images/user/products/Apple-keyboard.jpg 19:34:41 not the best picture 19:34:42 but oh well 19:34:47 (the keys are shallower than they look there...) 19:35:35 Well, that looks very much like a keyboard :P 19:35:42 Verily. 19:36:06 255 package upgrade GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 19:37:53 Because your system stores the number of updates in an unsigned char? :P 19:38:01 Haha 19:38:15 Unsigned car 19:38:40 I drive a signed car. 19:38:41 I signed it. 19:38:45 Oh sweet 19:38:49 I want a car signed by gregor 19:38:57 Who wouldn't? 19:39:09 Your mom. 19:39:15 (HAHAHAHA) 19:39:15 D-8 19:39:43 is that a really tiny penis 19:39:54 ... with an inverted head? 19:39:55 Ow 19:40:05 yes 19:45:04 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:46:36 http://entrian.com/goto/ 19:46:47 old 19:48:30 reboot time 19:50:12 No COBOL style ALTER? Or am I hallucinating tha there's an ALTER? 19:50:33 ...there's a COBOL 2002 standard? 19:55:21 ^ there must be a cdr joke somewhere 19:55:28 cdr? 19:55:31 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 20:01:53 ... wow ... poor you. The 2006 and 2007 apple keyboards are absolutely perfect. <-- what happened during 2008? 20:02:50 oh and is http://www.purelygadgets.co.uk/images/user/products/Apple-keyboard.jpg a slimmed model or a more full size usable one? 20:03:22 in that pic is is hard to see 20:03:27 since it is from right above 20:03:31 Fact : French mac keyboards have , instead of . on the number pad 20:03:36 Which is retarded 20:03:51 Slereah_, Fact: So does all Swedish keyboards I ever seen 20:03:54 including this one 20:03:56 hey ehird want to take over A Nomic 20:04:07 since we use , instead of . for decimal point 20:04:58 I want . on my numpad :< 20:05:16 AnMaster: That's full size 20:05:18 size of a regular kb 20:05:40 and the ridges between keys are nice, I almost never mistype 20:05:52 ehird, and how far does keys go when you press them? on most laptops they don't got down as much as on classical PC keyboards 20:06:05 more than laptops 20:06:11 they go down quite a bit, more than regular pc keyboards 20:06:19 they're specially weighted 20:06:31 but it's quite a quiet keyboard, unlike the model M, still tactile though 20:07:07 * FireFly wants a flat-keyed Das Keyboard Ultimate with quiet buttons 20:07:14 ... and a pony 20:07:30 ehird, sounds nice 20:07:41 are they as nice as those clicking keyboards? 20:07:58 AnMaster: = model Ms, yes, I'd say easier to type with too 20:08:01 while I hate the clicking sound the tactile experience was good 20:08:04 since you have to quite hit the keys with model m-s 20:08:25 AnMaster: unfortunately, you can't buy those any more, there's a new model out 20:08:32 which looks nicer but has less tall keys 20:08:48 well, actually, I have a spare one here iirc :-P 20:08:53 you could probably get one from ebay though 20:08:56 or similar 20:09:06 well a lot of keyboards has tend to go down when you just rest your hand and don't type, s o yes the extra force for model m-s is nice 20:09:14 for me, it is subjective of course 20:09:27 I can lie my hand on this kb and it doesn't press 20:09:36 it seems to be: hard, easy, hard 20:09:51 i.e., hard to initially press, easy to go down, then hard for the last bit 20:10:02 [20:09] i.e., hard to initially press, easy to go down, then hard for the last bit 20:10:06 context is for the weak 20:10:38 haha 20:11:55 okay, reboot into kde4.2 hopefully -> 20:21:12 Dear Kubuntu, 20:21:18 Please reconnect via wireless when you boot. Honestly. 20:21:21 It's not hard, goddammit! 20:22:06 Apart from that... Hey, this ain't bad. 20:22:11 by the way, until ehird joins ##Nomic, I'm going to talk about nomic in here 20:22:15 so it's in all your interests to get em to join 20:22:22 ais523 will complain at you. 20:22:56 * ehird installs firefox because konqueror is awful. 20:23:13 -!- k2 has joined. 20:23:24 -!- kar8nga has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:23:26 -!- k2 has changed nick to kar8nga. 20:23:35 comex: I see no nomic talk. 20:39:49 Pretty only things from Firefox I miss with Konqueror are proper sessions support, NoScript and that one site nickname extension... 20:40:25 I kind of dislike the "doesn't support shit" part. 20:42:41 jit 20:42:45 shit, linux font rendering is really terrible. 20:42:51 like really really awful 20:42:56 how so 20:43:07 compared to OS X? I want to rip my eyes out. 20:43:08 Multiple times. 20:44:15 ehird, got the wireless working yet? 20:44:41 They've always worked, it just forgets it at startup because it's stupid. 20:44:44 o 20:44:50 ehird, also about font rendering: depends 20:44:50 Well, I say always. 20:44:54 in binary distros: yes 20:44:57 I mean after I spent ages getting it working. 20:44:57 however 20:45:01 AnMaster: yer joking right 20:45:15 if you compile freetype from source you can enable an algorithm that apple patented 20:45:18 ah 20:45:21 binary distros disable it 20:45:26 because they don't like legal issues 20:45:28 AnMaster: screenshot of the result? 20:45:40 ehird, well there was some website comparing 20:45:42 * AnMaster googles 20:47:06 ehird, first: some background about the issue, it is related to hinter 20:47:08 http://www.freetype.org/patents.html 20:47:11 * ehird worries about machine; Linux doesn't seem to put the machine at rest like os x 20:47:13 the fan's always going 20:47:15 auto-hinter sucks ball 20:47:16 balls* 20:47:19 I agree about that 20:47:24 oh it would be better if it only sucked one ball 20:48:03 ehird, 5. at least 20:48:28 stop whirring machine :( 20:48:59 ehird, hm I'm not sure about such stuff. But probably it is just a case of finding the right setting 20:49:04 people keep saying turn off hinting in the google 20:49:05 and i rage at them 20:49:06 since I *don't* have a laptop... 20:49:15 because if you turn off hinting you can see the subpixel 20:49:16 s 20:49:18 AnMaster: err, nor I 20:49:27 oh right 20:49:31 well I don't have a mac 20:49:38 and this one has "one speed always fan" 20:49:49 I have dynamic cpu speed activated though 20:49:49 normally my fan is off 20:49:51 completely 20:49:57 ehird, lucky you 20:50:03 especially the GPU fan is loud 20:50:04 yeah, this is distracting :-P 20:50:06 in this computer 20:50:26 ehird, well, since I don't have a computer that supports fan control I don't know exactly 20:50:26 but 20:50:39 iirc lm_sensors bundles something called fancontrol 20:50:42 that is used for *some* fans 20:50:50 possibly acpi is used for other fans 20:50:52 or such 20:51:08 I'm not really the right person to ask about that sort of stuff 20:51:12 oh no 20:51:14 'Read-only file system' 20:51:17 I hate it when that happens 20:52:11 ehird, err how the heck did you manage that? 20:52:38 dunno; it happens all the time for me with linux 20:52:48 i think linux just hates me 20:52:50 like hate hate hate hate hate 20:52:50 ehird, what did you do? 20:52:57 did / remount readonly? 20:52:59 or what 20:53:00 dunno 20:53:06 maybe I should flaming os x, it might like me more then 20:54:30 * ehird votes to name new nasa node "Mister Splashy Pants" 20:54:38 hm 20:54:48 so 20:55:02 anyone want to share their mind with mine? 20:55:15 i mean like, so that we'd both control both bodies 20:55:18 yes 20:55:25 ehird, google image search yielded this: http://o0l0o.org/images/Bildschirmfoto_fsl_new.png not sure if that is enabled or disabled 20:55:43 i'm not sure i'd want to do that indefinitely though. 20:56:12 ehird, also this http://puntium.smugmug.com/photos/183993189_f7waP-S.jpg 20:56:15 -!- shapr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:56:48 enabled or disabled? 20:56:59 that looks nice, though 20:57:02 ehird, the latter I think is both side by side 20:57:03 logout login -> 20:58:35 ehird, back yet? 20:58:55 no subpixel rendering 20:58:57 + slight hinting 20:59:01 seems to do the trick to a degree 20:59:06 * Sgeo wants the IRTC back 20:59:09 I'd prefer subpixel ofc, but oh well 20:59:13 ehird, well, you could build your own 20:59:15 brb 20:59:18 quoting gentoo ebuild 20:59:27 if ! use bindist; then 20:59:27 # Bytecodes and subpixel hinting supports are patented 20:59:27 # in United States; for safety, disable them while building 20:59:27 # binaries, so that no risky code is distributed. 20:59:27 # See http://freetype.org/patents.html 20:59:32 enable_option FT_CONFIG_OPTION_SUBPIXEL_RENDERING 20:59:32 enable_option TT_CONFIG_OPTION_BYTECODE_INTERPRETER 20:59:32 disable_option TT_CONFIG_OPTION_UNPATENTED_HINTING 20:59:37 fi 21:00:09 GOD 21:00:10 BLESS 21:00:11 AMERICA 21:00:33 GregorR, well both me and ehird are in Europe, so we should be able to use it without issues 21:01:56 ehird, oh and openoffice includes it's own copy of freetype iirc, so there it is harder to get good looking font 21:05:23 ehird, there? 21:06:09 ehird, now the word spacing that firefox uses isn't the best, but other than that this looks good on my monitor. Settings are tuned to look good on this TFT, which may not look very good on your. But at least I hope it is useful http://omploader.org/vMWE0OQ 21:06:24 ehird, that was a screenshot of http://www.freetype.org/patents.html 21:10:13 ehird, also these two images: http://avi.alkalay.net/articlefiles/freetype4-nbci.png http://avi.alkalay.net/articlefiles/freetype4-bci.png 21:10:24 hm 21:10:37 one seems without hinting at all in fact. well not sure 21:11:02 ehird, of course it also depends on font. I recommend you convert your OS X fonts and copy them over 21:11:03 :) 21:11:16 bbiab 21:17:53 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:23:54 back 21:24:13 ehird, this seems relevant: http://www.beranger.org/index.php?page=3k&fullarticle=2150 21:24:23 as well as the other links I pasted before you returned 21:24:33 but your bouncer handles that iirc? 21:24:43 i WAS Online 21:24:45 just ask 21:24:46 afk 21:24:48 capslock 21:24:51 right 21:24:58 also: wb 21:25:07 hiiii ehird we missed you 21:25:13 :P 21:25:14 [20:59] ehird, well, you could build your own 21:25:23 * oklopol goes back to minesweeped 21:25:25 *r 21:25:28 I will literally build my own 21:25:30 when my OS is done 21:25:31 :P 21:25:37 ehird, it is simply a stupid "apple has patents in US" issue 21:25:38 :/ 21:25:52 yeah 21:25:54 patents often cause problems for great linux stuff 21:25:56 i hate software patents 21:26:15 like that recent "apply kernel security patches without reboot" : scrapped due to MS patents covering it 21:26:16 :/ 21:26:20 i can understand why a company would take them out in the current corporateosphere, but they shouldn't even exist 21:26:43 http://omploader.org/vMWE0OQ <-- the text here looks very thin 21:26:48 almost as if some bit sare missing 21:27:14 ehird, hm, well I found that readable on my screen, but it is pretty low DPI 21:27:23 AnMaster: I have like 120dpi or something ridiculous here 21:27:25 also, that bci.png... 21:27:29 the text isn't even antialiased... 21:27:37 ehird, iirc I have around 100 DPI 21:27:51 ehird, and yeah, no clue about that, the original page didn't exist 21:27:51 more than most people 21:27:53 when I tried 21:28:05 ehird, actually 98 DPI I think 21:28:27 anyway I *do* use the byte code interpreter 21:28:40 because without it, yeah awful 21:29:36 http://macprolinux.blogspot.com/2008/04/fan-control-python-script-for-8-core.html hmm 21:29:43 lalala 21:29:48 ehird, also there is a lack of free fonts yes, at least you can get some "not as bad as bitmapped helvetica" by getting ms corefonts (yes this means MS fonts, but trust me, bitmapped helvetica or courier is worse) 21:30:03 I'll probably just nick Helvetica from os x or something 21:30:16 since non-os x helveticas are worse, as a rule 21:30:19 -!- jix_ has quit ("..."). 21:30:25 ehird, you need to convert .dfont -> .ttf 21:30:30 there was some app for it 21:30:33 forgot name 21:30:45 I know, I used it to give some fonts to you 21:30:46 :P 21:30:47 ehird: s/helveticas/things in general/ 21:31:06 psygnisfive: I agree, but keep the flamebait down, I'm installing linux to see how it's progressed 21:31:12 ehird, normally I tend to use bitstream vera sans mono since I think that variable width sucks for programming 21:31:20 I use Monaco for programming 21:31:22 ive heard good things about the new ubuntus 21:31:23 and for writing documents: LaTeX 21:31:25 oooh monaco <3 21:31:36 ehird, Compter Modern FTW! 21:31:40 Computer* 21:31:45 computer modern is rather unmonospaced. 21:31:50 psygnisfive: I'm using kubuntu with the new kde 4.2 21:31:54 ehird, yes I said for writing documents 21:32:01 it's pretty, at least 21:32:05 cory doctorow's raved about ubuntu. 21:32:16 he would, he's a free culture weenie 21:32:24 ive got no idea what makes kubuntu k-ified 21:32:28 no no not even just that its free 21:32:29 kde. 21:32:35 he says it works nicely too 21:32:38 kubuntu = ubuntu - gnome + kde 21:32:46 on, does ubuntu normally use gnome? 21:32:47 hm. 21:32:50 yes 21:33:00 wheres elubuntu? 21:33:01 ehird, and there is a outline version, type1 iirc: Latin Modern 21:33:04 or blubuntu 21:33:20 ehird, hm btw is kubuntu KDE 4? 21:33:22 psygnisfive: what 21:33:30 er.. enubuntu, i meant 21:33:35 AnMaster: yes, kde 4.1, but I added the -proposed repository to upgrade to kde 4.2 21:33:41 4.2 is much nicer than 4.1 21:33:47 ehird, ah, I'm still on KDE 3.5.x 21:33:50 enubuntu = ubuntu - gnome + enlightenment 21:33:51 and blows 4.0 out of the water, although I only have ais523's anecdotes about 4.0 to go on 21:33:58 AnMaster: I'd say 4.2 is a definite improvemen 21:33:58 blubuntu = ubuntu - gnome + blackbox 21:33:59 t 21:34:05 they've nicked quite a lot from os x :P 21:34:19 psygnisfive: they don't exist because blackbox and enlightenment are both crap 21:34:24 :P 21:34:24 ehird, well gentoo devs say they will support KDE 3.x "for quite a while at least, considering how bad KDE 4 is still" 21:34:26 i like them 21:34:39 AnMaster: kde 4.2 just came out like last month. 21:34:41 ehird, quote from memory, comment about KDE 4.2-alpha 21:34:41 i like their extreme minimalism 21:34:42 late last month 21:34:52 psygnisfive: LOL, no, if you want extreme minimalism try dwm 21:34:53 or something like that 21:34:56 pre? beta? 21:34:57 or ratpoison 21:34:59 dwm? 21:35:01 AnMaster: no, final 21:35:04 psygnisfive: google it, foo 21:35:09 doing so nigra 21:35:10 ehird, well I mean that quote 21:35:15 ehird, well gentoo devs say they will support KDE 3.x "for quite a while at least, considering how bad KDE 4 is still" 21:35:28 ah 21:35:30 oh i read about this a bit back 21:35:31 it was about 4.2-(pre|beta|alpha|whatever) 21:35:34 well, I dunno 21:35:38 ehird, by a gentoo dev 21:35:43 gentoo devs tend to be a bit ridiculous in my experience 21:35:48 (i.e.: biased and irritating) 21:35:51 i didnt like dwm 21:35:58 ion ftw 21:36:16 ion is lol, the author is a douchebag 21:36:27 "I'm switching to windows and releasing ion as closed source in future!" "Err, disregard that" 21:36:28 ehird, well I really haven't had much to do with them, yeah I know there has been some internal fights stuff, but how do you know there haven't been any internal fights at apple? 21:36:40 no no no ehird 21:36:40 and why do you care about that, as long as the product works 21:36:40 it 21:36:42 AnMaster: I don't because I don't have contact with more than a few apple devs :P 21:36:43 s 21:36:49 "err disregard that i suck cocks lol" 21:36:53 also, you used a gentoo dev as an authoritative opinion 21:36:54 :P 21:36:59 psygnisfive: no, the author of ion would never admit to sucking cocks. 21:37:02 he's too self-centered. :P 21:37:17 can there even be such thing as an authoritative opinion? :) 21:37:23 so yeah i dislike dwm 21:37:26 evenant: duh, the government! 21:37:32 ehird, yes I just told you what one of the kde maintainers said, he also said that gentoo would probably aim for KDE 4.3 heh 21:37:46 kde package maintainers* 21:37:46 that is 21:37:53 why do you dislike bbwm and enlightenment, ehird? 21:37:56 (if it was unclear) 21:38:07 enlightenment is just bloated and boring, + pointless eye candy 21:38:14 psygnisfive, I have considered trying awesome wm if KDE 4.x doesn't improve 21:38:18 really? how do you figure? 21:38:21 or maybe xfce 21:38:22 i've used it. 21:38:29 blackbox is 99% "omg so 1337" and 1% actual usability. 21:38:38 right but what do you find bloated and pointless eye candy? 21:38:38 "IF THE TEXT IS SMALLER IT'S MORE MINIMALIST" 21:38:43 psygnisfive: have you _used_ e17? 21:38:45 ehird, xfce? (did I miss you passing over that?) 21:38:46 hells yeah 21:38:51 AnMaster: xfce is basically gnome done right 21:38:51 isn't that the point of linux? :P 21:38:53 no, i havent used e in a while 21:38:54 yeah, tuomov is a dick 21:38:57 but ion is awesome 21:38:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:39:00 ehird, oh, you mean with features? 21:39:06 ? 21:39:43 AnMaster: ? 21:39:53 ehird, for example I was trying to print from a Gnome program recently, except there seemed to be no where to set "A4" instead of "letter" 21:40:09 mm. you're right. im now reminded of the excessive silliness that people design for E themes 21:40:23 one good thing: You could be sure it wasn't there, it wasn't like you could have missed it, too few options around for that... 21:40:29 AnMaster: what context is this? 21:40:40 whenever i used enlightenment i used the very simple themes 21:40:43 in kde if you couldn't find it you wouldn't know if it was hidden somewhere between all the other options 21:40:51 ehird, gnome application printing dialog 21:40:57 it is shared between gnome apps 21:41:04 what are you replying to? 21:41:09 something I said? what? 21:41:11 AnMaster: xfce is basically gnome done right 21:41:12 ehird, oh, you mean with features? 21:41:15 ? 21:41:17 that makes no sense to me 21:41:18 ehird, for example I was trying to print from a Gnome program recently, except there seemed to be no where to set "A4" instead of "letter" 21:41:25 [21:41] AnMaster: xfce is basically gnome done right 21:41:26 [21:41] ehird, oh, you mean with features? 21:41:28 could you rephrase your line there? 21:41:40 i think AnMaster was being perfectly clear 21:41:46 ehird, basically I'm saying my main problem with gnome is that they seem to remove options all the time 21:41:50 ah 21:41:55 they are trying to make a fool proof GUI 21:41:59 I'm all for removing features, but gnome is just run by idiots 21:42:03 prediction: 21:42:08 if you ever want to use gnome, use xfce instead 21:42:10 maybe you needed to not know know what you're talking about to get it. 21:42:12 Gnome in 2020 will have two buttons 21:42:15 it's exactly the same except it works. 21:42:17 :D 21:42:21 that is all 21:42:26 both will do the same 21:42:30 AnMaster: "Switch to xfce" "Turn off computer" 21:42:38 they do the same, just one switches to xfce first 21:42:42 ah 21:42:48 and the other would switch to xfce after turning off your computer, but it can't do anything while it's off 21:42:53 so elegant 21:43:06 -!- BeholMyGlory has joined. 21:43:30 second prediction: In 2020 KDE will require 16 GB RAM. Firefox will require n + 25 GB RAM (where n is how much ram you have installed) 21:43:43 ehird@fhtagn:~$ sudo modprobe applesmc 21:43:44 ehird@fhtagn:~$ 21:43:48 This is a start. 21:43:56 ehird, what does applesmc do? 21:44:05 apple system management controller 21:44:09 I don't know what the hell comes next 21:44:14 I see. is that what handles the fan stuff? 21:44:17 I think so 21:44:39 * ehird growls at linux. It's interpreting mousewheel-left as right and vise versa. (This is annoying because the mighty mouse is one 3d ball, so when I scroll down I scroll right ever so slightly) 21:44:48 err 21:44:51 oh right I see 21:44:57 ehird, that is probably in xorg.conf 21:44:59 if that helps 21:45:11 Section "InputDevice" 21:45:12 Identifier "MightyMouse" 21:45:14 Driver "evdev" 21:45:15 Option "CorePointer" 21:45:17 Option "Name" "Elliott Hird’s Mouse" 21:45:18 Option "HWHEELRelativeAxisButtons" "7 6" 21:45:20 Option "Buttons" "8" 21:45:20 yep that is where 21:45:21 EndSection 21:45:21 hm 21:45:23 Guess I just have to swap them 21:45:24 to 6 7 21:45:34 ehird, worth a try, but I'm not sure 21:45:59 that may swap up/down with left/right 21:46:03 *possibly* 21:46:07 not sure 21:46:36 ehird, if you have kernel sources: drivers/hwmon/applesmc.c 21:46:41 I don't 21:46:42 * ehird 's forehead aches 21:46:59 ehird, well I'm feeling helpful today 21:46:59 so 21:47:10 from a quick look at that file it handles fan and motion sensor 21:47:12 (I bashed it hard yesterday by running into some metal head-on. Don't ask how. There's a bump there now.) 21:47:12 heh 21:47:19 also, that's good :P 21:47:21 also light sensor? 21:47:23 now how do I make it work I wonder... 21:47:29 AnMaster: for controlling monitor brightness, I assume 21:47:48 ehird, somewhere in /proc I would suspect, or /sys 21:47:55 let me read a bit further in the file 21:48:08 -!- Judofyr has joined. 21:48:29 -!- BeholMyGlory has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 21:48:39 hrrm 21:48:57 device? 21:49:05 ? 21:49:22 ehird, it seems to have stuff related to /dev 21:49:24 not sure yet 21:49:30 only about halfway through the file 21:49:35 how do you change keyboard layout in kde 21:49:37 I can't type a bar 21:49:56 ehird, in KDE 3 it is in the kcontrol thing 21:50:24 oh wait sysfs 21:50:31 (talking about fan) 21:50:56 You'd think this would work out of the box 21:51:12 ehird, no I don't, I'm a realist 21:51:25 it works in OS X, and I'm pretty sure it works in windows 21:51:26 apple works out of box because they can ensure it does in advance 21:51:26 out of the box 21:51:42 but yes, apple gain a lot by relying on hardware 21:51:58 ehird, ok, applesmc is controlled through sysfs 21:52:04 sysfs = /sys, right? 21:52:21 ehird, yes. However I'm not sure exactly which file because it depends on what PCI ID it shows up as I think 21:52:27 if I understood the source correctly 21:52:32 acpi pci platform scsi spi usb 21:52:34 ieee1394 pci_express pnp serio ssb 21:52:35 so, pci then 21:52:37 wel 21:52:53 ehird, I might be wrong, I think pci and pci_express is handled similiary at this level 21:52:56 so worth searching 21:53:13 nothing related that I can see 21:53:33 ehird, find /sys -name '*applesmc*' 21:53:34 maybe 21:53:44 ehird, I'm not very used to kernel macors 21:53:48 macros* 21:53:50 /sys/devices/platform/applesmc.768 21:53:52 /sys/bus/platform/devices/applesmc.768 21:53:53 /sys/bus/platform/drivers/applesmc 21:53:55 /sys/bus/platform/drivers/applesmc/applesmc.768 21:53:55 ah 21:53:56 /sys/module/applesmc 21:53:58 /sys/module/applesmc/drivers/platform:applesmc 21:53:59 /sys/module/input_polldev/holders/applesmc 21:54:00 then I guessed wrong 21:54:01 /sys/module/led_class/holders/applesmc 21:54:02 it wasn't pci 21:54:02 gotta be one of them 21:54:03 well 21:54:04 now to find out which 21:54:17 ehird, indeed. Did you try google btw? 21:54:28 yes 21:54:30 a lot 21:54:38 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MacBookPro/SantaRosaFanControl 21:54:41 what about that one? 21:54:55 oh wait 21:54:58 macbook 21:55:02 it seems to have issues with applesmc too 21:55:04 ah 21:55:12 "One of these days I'll have time to dig into applesmc to understand how it works... " 21:55:14 NOT promising 21:55:30 ehird, anyway I never had issues like this when installing linux 21:55:38 Unsurprising 21:55:50 ehird, really? I never got a computer with linux pre-installed 21:56:01 s/got// 21:56:07 bought? 21:56:10 yes 21:56:14 or received, or owned 21:56:17 or whatever 21:56:18 -!- Corun has joined. 21:56:18 indeed 21:56:20 anyway 21:56:42 ehird, the largest problem I ever had was with some old old "winmodem" back when I had dialup 21:56:58 luckily I did find a driver in the end. But this was back on 2.4 kernels 21:57:06 I hate winmodems so. much. 21:57:08 since then it worked mostly painlessly 21:57:10 ehird, me too 21:57:11 anyway 21:57:12 I had a USB winmodem when I was with Tiscali 21:57:15 bane of my existance 21:57:26 I'm just gonig to leave the fan 21:57:28 it's not harming anyone 21:57:46 nvidia-drivers sometimes had issues with last kernel, however often easy to fix by selecting another version 21:57:53 -!- kar8nga has quit (Connection timed out). 21:57:57 gentoo tends to make many versions available of nvidia-drivers 21:58:07 [I] x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers 21:58:08 Available versions: 71.86.06!s 71.86.07!s ~71.86.08!s 96.43.07!s 96.43.09!s ~96.43.10!s 100.14.19!s 173.14.09!s ~173.14.12!s 173.14.15!s ~173.14.16!s ~177.80!s 177.82!s ~180.22!s ~180.27!s ~180.29!s {acpi custom-cflags gtk kernel_FreeBSD kernel_linux multilib userland_BSD} 21:58:08 Installed versions: 177.82!s(14:49:55 01/31/09)(acpi gtk kernel_linux multilib -custom-cflags) 21:58:13 My graphics driver in here is the propietary fglrx one, I think 21:58:20 ehird, ATI: ouch 21:58:26 ok ATI is another bad one 21:58:31 I had a ATI card once 21:58:37 changed to nvidia 21:58:40 AnMaster: when I bought this mac you could only get nvidia with a mac pro, and it was more expensive 21:58:47 this graphics card has served me fine, anyway 21:58:48 ehird, I feel sorry for you to have ATI 21:58:52 even on windows ATI sucks 21:58:55 I'm happy :P 21:59:06 ehird, yes right, but ATI tends to have issues on linux 21:59:10 they make shitty drivers 21:59:13 I haven't really has any issues 21:59:15 *had 21:59:17 even their own closed source ones 21:59:24 guess I'm lucky 21:59:32 sure so does nvidia, but they are at least less shitty 22:00:46 ehird, this is sad, you get more useful hits when goolging for applesmc -ubuntu than for applesmc 22:00:53 haha 22:01:15 AnMaster: here's how my text rendering/etc currently looks: 22:01:16 http://filebin.ca/trdxnd/snapshot1.png 22:01:20 ehird, http://www.mactel-linux.org/wiki/AppleSMC 22:01:22 is that useful? 22:01:27 I've seen that page 22:01:30 it isn't really helpful 22:01:35 it's internals documentation 22:01:38 grr download dialog 22:01:45 yeah, filebin does that 22:01:53 ompload++ 22:02:11 I'm wary to click on omploader links because it was originally designed as a shock site hoster 22:02:15 ehird, atm my gimp seems broken, it says this when trying to open urls: 22:02:16 Procedure 'gimp-file-load' has been called with value '(null)' for argument 'filename' (#2, type gchararray). This value is out of range. 22:02:36 * AnMaster wgets 22:02:48 @ 22:02:49 Q: What in the butt is Omploader? 22:02:51 A: Omploader was originally crea 22:02:52 err 22:02:55 " 22:02:56 Q: What in the butt is Omploader? 22:02:58 A: Omploader was originally created to become the ultimate shock site hosting service b 22:02:59 " 22:03:02 heh 22:03:07 sure it says that? 22:03:11 http://omploader.org/faq.xhtml 22:03:12 very sure 22:03:12 I looked in FAQ recently iirc 22:03:21 ah yes 22:03:35 ehird, anyway your screenshot definitely seems like the auto-hinter crap 22:03:41 probably 22:03:44 it looks decent though 22:04:09 ehird, I think mine looks a bit better. Could be due to careful tuning for this monitor 22:04:51 ehird, I mean apple can easily pre-tune since they know exactly what monitor will be used in most of the cases. 22:04:57 Yep. 22:05:23 oh and they have worked with this for ages. I mean apple used to be used in DTP a lot 22:05:33 still is 22:05:36 nowdays windows is probably used sometimes, but even so apple is still quite common there 22:05:37 yeah 22:05:50 ehird, I mean I often wanted something like coloursync 22:06:05 sure there is a few things like it, tinycms and such 22:06:07 my OS will have perfect antialiasing. :-P 22:06:14 hah 22:06:21 also, perfect everything else. 22:06:23 perfect pony providing. 22:06:31 ehird, be prepared to pay apple then for the patent 22:06:34 :/ 22:06:44 I'll just invent my own and be a hermit until I finish it 22:06:57 ehird, with bytecode interpreter I can see no difference to rendering on a mac if I use the same font 22:07:10 really? like your screenshot? 22:07:14 that's way different to how a mac would do it 22:07:26 mac text pretty much looks like printed text 22:07:27 ehird, well that wasn't using the same font that would be found on a mac 22:07:29 a bit less thick 22:07:36 AnMaster: I have dejavu on my mac 22:08:08 ehird, also I don't like how a mac does it so I changed a bit from that. + firefox isn't the best to handle spacing 22:08:23 I'm using arora browser 22:08:24 webkit + qt 22:08:33 but I mean for hinting and such 22:09:06 ehird, idea for future X extension: XTeX 22:09:13 renders on screen with tex in realtime 22:09:14 :) 22:09:19 ha 22:09:22 to give you the best possible experience 22:09:36 AnMaster: no, it sends it off to an automated professional printer 22:09:42 oooh nice 22:09:47 and then automates scanning the result 22:09:50 with a high-quality scanner 22:09:57 ehird, with the microtype package? 22:10:01 for the rendering 22:10:03 and maps its draft rendering to the scanned copy to smooth out edges and map up the text 22:10:07 ta-daaaaaaaaaaa 22:10:56 ehird, http://www.ctan.org/get/macros/latex/contrib/microtype/microtype.pdf 22:11:01 very nice 22:11:13 The application Konqueror (konqueror) crashed and caused the signal 11 (SIGSEGV). 22:11:15 Please help us improve the software you use by filing a report at http://bugs.kde.org. Useful details include how to reproduce the error, documents that were loaded, etc. 22:11:16 greaaat 22:11:24 ehird, included by default in recent texlive 22:11:34 ehird, never happens to me 22:11:39 want to summarize it because I can't open that? 22:11:52 it has been something like 1.2 years since I last saw a KDE crash dialog for a KDE app 22:11:59 or such 22:12:05 KDE 3.5 is stable :) 22:12:20 ehird, anyway try firefox maybe? 22:12:24 heh, kde 3.5 crashed all the time for me 22:12:27 AnMaster: I'll try arora 22:12:38 ehird, strange what is it with you and Linux... 22:12:44 ah I know 22:12:48 the packages hate you 22:12:54 you are not their builder 22:12:58 you need to compile your own 22:13:03 it is like blood groups 22:13:11 graaaah, I restarted my mouse and now it won't recognize it 22:13:16 HULK SMASH 22:13:22 you are incompatible with whowever built the package 22:13:26 ehird, ouch that is a bad one 22:13:29 never had that issue 22:13:39 I can disconnect and reconnect the mouse and it works perfectly 22:13:43 mind you it is USB 22:13:46 so may differ 22:13:53 don't have any bluetooth in this computer 22:13:55 brb 22:14:03 ofc it differs :P 22:14:22 yay, reconnected 22:15:21 so, who wants to hear me rant about how computing sucks and my OS would fix everything? 22:15:34 -!- kar8nga has joined. 22:16:08 back 22:16:26 you all do? awesome! 22:16:39 ehird, unless it is written is 99.9999 % Haskell 0.0001 % ASM and 0 % C: No thanks 22:16:54 AnMaster: s/Haskell/Lisp/ and you got it 22:16:55 if it is written is 99.9999 % Haskell 0.0001 % ASM and 0 % C: Thanks, but no 22:17:06 :-D 22:17:11 ehird, is there a fast forward option? 22:17:18 on the rant 22:17:29 at selected digressions. 22:18:59 ehird, anyway I have two things to say: 1) Software patents blocked linux being great more than once. Fonts, hot patching kernel, colour management... and lots more 2) Apple know exactly what hardware their OS will run on. And they can afford patents. (In fact they own several). 22:19:14 1) agreed there, it's a shame 22:19:25 ehird, At least I don't need to reboot just because I updated itunes :D 22:19:29 2) i'm not happy with owning patents, but indeed knowing the hardware is very helpful 22:19:32 AnMaster: hey, nor I 22:19:43 you only need to boot up for core system updates, and firmware updatesss 22:19:47 ehird, I'm pretty sure I saw a mac reboot after an upgrade to it recently.. 22:19:48 anyway 22:19:53 sure, maybe QuickTime 22:19:59 quicktime is heavily integrated into os x 22:20:06 and is generally bundled with an itunes upgrade 22:20:14 i.e. quicktime upgrade = itunes upgrade, but sometimes itunes upgrade without quicktime upgrade 22:20:16 ehird, I upgraded from glibc 2.6 to 2.8 a few days ago. Recompiled binutils, libtool, gcc, gdb and valgrind after 22:20:19 haven't rebooted yet 22:20:22 everything works fine 22:20:25 against the new glibc 22:20:27 you can do that with os x too. 22:20:29 core system component 22:20:41 well, you'd have to close all apps and reopen them entirely 22:20:49 because just about all of them rely on the kind of stuff making you reboot 22:20:52 and yes it is possible quicktime was upgraded 22:20:54 at that point, might as well just reboot.. 22:21:07 ehird, um I haven't closed anything after that upgrade 22:21:15 hey I even upgraded X without restarting it 22:21:21 or QT without exiting KDE 22:21:24 usually it works 22:21:31 it's a different kind of thing, but w/e 22:21:32 only once it broke, for QT 22:22:11 got "psychedelic colour" KDE. I think it managed to confuse Alpha channel or such 22:22:17 restarting KDE helped that time 22:22:18 ha 22:22:48 rant mode turning on in 60 seconds... ^C to abort... 22:22:50 beeeep 22:22:50 like on all menus, just after the shortcut info... 22:22:52 ^C 22:23:03 ehird: ^C 22:23:05 are you sure? ^C for yes, ^Z for no 22:23:08 ehird: ^C 22:23:12 ** 40 seconds remaining * 22:23:16 are you really sure? 22:23:19 yes 22:23:25 ehird, yes really 22:23:27 please use the correct key combinations 22:23:31 ehird, ^C 22:23:40 ^Z for yes, ^C for no. ok, thanks for accepting my rants 22:23:42 ah 22:23:44 ** 25 seconds remaining ** 22:23:44 ehird, no 22:23:46 ^C 22:23:47 ^C 22:23:50 ^Z 22:23:51 are you sure? 22:23:56 are you really sure? 22:24:04 are you -- user entered too many keys at once. Returning to main loop. 22:24:08 ** 10 seconds remaining * 22:24:10 * 22:24:17 ehird, then I'm going to /ignore 22:24:22 *shrug* 22:24:25 ** BOOT UP COMPLETED * 22:24:27 * 22:24:56 AWAITING FOR USER TO FORGET ABOUT IGNORING SYSTEM BEFORE CONTINUING. 22:25:19 SHIFTY EYES. 22:25:45 AnMaster: PROMPTING FOR CONFIRMATION OF FORGETTING [YN] 22:27:55 http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/02/19/quicken-online-cant-believe-mint-is-doing-so-well-sends-threatening-letter/ 22:27:59 facepalm 22:29:12 AnMaster: am I on ignore? 22:30:18 psygnisfive, Hm ever considered that there is more than one type of ignore? 22:30:37 [22:24] ehird, then I'm going to /ignore 22:30:40 that was qute specific 22:31:14 ehird, well isn't that the command you use in your brain for mental ignore? If not get new cyborg implements(sp?) 22:31:23 I'll wait for the singularity :P 22:31:38 ehird, E_UNKNOWN_REF 22:32:00 We've talked about it quite a bit in here. 22:32:01 I do know what singularity is in math and in black holes, I don't know how it is related to this 22:32:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity 22:32:29 Also see http://yudkowsky.net/obsolete/singularity.html (despite obsolete marker, still worthwhile) 22:33:47 anmaster, what? 22:33:54 psygnisfive, forget it 22:34:09 psygnisfive, you were an innocent bystander 22:35:20 :( 22:35:29 COLLATERAL DAMAGE? 22:35:46 psygnisfive, for a joke yes 22:36:11 what are the other kinds of ignore? 22:36:37 ehird, btw what do you think of cleartype style antialias 22:36:47 like using just some colours 22:36:51 personally I hate it 22:37:04 on this screen it looks horrible 22:37:11 AnMaster: cleartype is better than a lot of linux font rendering, but apart from that, it' scrapp 22:37:12 cleartype is ugly 22:37:16 agh keyboard laggy 22:37:18 indeed 22:37:23 ehird, keyboard lags? 22:37:24 huh 22:37:27 never happened to me 22:37:39 well I guess when I managed to cause swap trashing... it happened partly 22:37:50 but only then 22:38:14 ehird, so how the heck did you manage to get your keyboard to lag 22:38:23 also what made you install ubuntu 22:38:25 just wondering 22:38:58 AnMaster: wireless keyboard thats been trhashed over the years 22:39:17 AnMaster: and, ais upgrading 22:39:44 ehird, hm? 22:39:51 ais isn't connected 22:39:51 ... 22:39:55 earlier today 22:39:58 ah yes 22:40:06 ah you wanted to try last version? 22:40:33 yes 22:41:14 grah 22:41:22 it won't reconnect 22:41:24 wtf not... 22:42:35 what 22:42:39 grah? 22:42:53 grah=gah + irritation 22:43:08 ehird, also I never used bluetooth under linux (or any other OS) so afraid I can't help here 22:43:22 I use a PS/2 keyboard in fact heh 22:43:33 USB mouse from Microsoft 22:43:36 ps/2? 22:43:38 wow. 22:43:53 ehird, why replace it? if the keyboard works and is nice to type on 22:43:58 I mean it isn't broken yet 22:44:11 ehird, I never replace stuff I don't need to replace 22:44:15 Can't get device information: Host is down 22:44:17 wtf is hidd on 22:44:24 hidd? 22:44:36 bluetooth thing 22:44:42 ehird@fhtagn:~$ sudo hidd --connect 00:0A:95:4A:C6:08 22:44:44 Can't get device information: Host is down 22:45:01 like I used same mobile phone for like 5 years. Until recently my phone had black and white screen and like 3 lines of text 22:45:14 ehird, um no idea 22:45:16 dmesg? 22:45:28 /var/log/* ? 22:45:32 [ 5250.154819] applesmc: 3 fans found. 22:45:35 ^ wow. 3 fans. 22:45:36 nice 22:45:48 ehird, I have that many in my computer: CPU, GPU, PSU 22:45:52 3 fans 22:46:03 the gpu one is really loud 22:46:09 the cpu is fairly loud too 22:46:24 * ehird feels back fan HOLY FUCK THAT'S HOT 22:46:29 * ehird warms hands 22:46:30 ehird, idea 22:46:39 do you have cpufreq-info 22:46:43 possibly root only 22:46:48 wut's that fof 22:46:49 for 22:46:50 otherwise I'll find out what package it is 22:47:02 ehird, finding out if you use dynamic cpu speed 22:47:06 or run at max all the time 22:47:33 ehird@fhtagn:~$ cpufreq-info 22:47:34 The program 'cpufreq-info' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing: 22:47:36 sudo apt-get install cpufrequtils 22:47:37 bash: cpufreq-info: command not found 22:47:39 ehird@fhtagn:~$ sudo apt-get install cpufrequtils 22:47:39 cpufrequtils 22:47:40 ah 22:47:40 i like that part of ubuntu 22:47:41 yes 22:47:56 ehird, well I guess you have like thousands of symlinks in /usr/bin from it... 22:48:01 err, no 22:48:03 it's a bash hack 22:48:06 oh I see 22:48:08 interesting 22:48:13 http://rafb.net/p/YIUplv84.html 22:48:14 btw 22:48:22 ehird, to change you use cpufreq-set 22:48:31 analyzing CPU 0: 22:48:33 driver: acpi-cpufreq 22:48:35 CPUs which need to switch frequency at the same time: 0 22:48:36 ehird, you will probably want to put it in some startup script 22:48:36 hardware limits: 1000 MHz - 2.17 GHz 22:48:38 available frequency steps: 2.17 GHz, 2.00 GHz, 1.83 GHz, 1.67 GHz, 1.50 GHz, 1.33 GHz, 1000 MHz 22:48:39 available cpufreq governors: userspace, ondemand, conservative, powersave, performance 22:48:41 current policy: frequency should be within 1000 MHz and 2.17 GHz. 22:48:42 The governor "ondemand" may decide which speed to use 22:48:44 within this range. 22:48:44 ah 22:48:44 hm 22:48:45 current CPU frequency is 1000 MHz. 22:48:47 analyzing CPU 1: 22:48:48 well 22:48:48 driver: acpi-cpufreq 22:48:50 CPUs which need to switch frequency at the same time: 1 22:48:51 then why so hot 22:48:51 hardware limits: 1000 MHz - 2.17 GHz 22:48:54 available frequency steps: 2.17 GHz, 2.00 GHz, 1.83 GHz, 1.67 GHz, 1.50 GHz, 1.33 GHz, 1000 MHz 22:48:54 available cpufreq governors: userspace, ondemand, conservative, powersave, performance 22:48:57 current policy: frequency should be within 1000 MHz and 2.17 GHz. 22:48:58 The governor "ondemand" may decide which speed to use 22:49:00 within this range. 22:49:03 current CPU frequency is 1000 MHz. 22:49:04 whee flood 22:49:04 ehird, that seems fine then 22:49:06 oops 22:49:08 :| 22:49:12 ehird, it is currently at lowest speed 22:49:18 ondemand makes it run faster when needed 22:49:24 ehird, not sure why it is hot then 22:49:31 and if it is normal 22:49:34 keyboard is now connected, mouse is now laggy -_- 22:49:41 goddamn, ubuntu. goddamn. 22:49:42 ehird, I feel for you 22:49:53 also I don't know why 22:50:10 ehird, anyway stuff like this tends to be not very well documented 22:50:23 and differ between vendors 22:50:27 okay, all reconnected 22:50:29 thank god 22:50:33 who produce drivers for whatever OS they suppor 22:50:38 like windows drivers 22:50:40 or mac ones 22:50:46 my os would fix this all :P 22:50:59 ehird, running mac OS on a non-mac tends to be worse than linux on a mac 22:51:09 osx86 has matured a lot 22:51:19 I imagine OS X on a pc is less painful than this 22:51:36 ehird, the hardware it works on is way more limited than the hardware linux works on 22:51:37 :P 22:51:43 indeed 22:51:50 point is, apple can fine tune for their hardware 22:52:00 this is only the 50th time you have said this 22:52:02 :D 22:52:04 PC vendors can fine tune and/or write drivers for windows 22:52:15 linux devs lack this possibility 22:52:16 do you want to say it a few more times? 22:52:25 thanks but no 22:52:37 unless you complain about linux again :P 22:53:01 I'm not complaining about linux, just my situation with linux 22:53:07 anyway fan and ACPI stuff can usually be made to work 22:53:13 it used to be way worse 22:53:31 hey I remember back on linux 2.6.8 or so, it used to kernel panic if I rebooted by USB printer 22:53:49 :D 22:53:58 oklopol: do you want to hear my OS rants? 22:54:02 back when men were real men... 22:54:06 they're insightful, I swear. 22:54:10 AnMaster: what year was that 22:54:34 ehird, not sure... but it was on opensuse 22:55:05 i first used linux in 2004 I think 22:55:12 ehird, oh and I remember compiling a custom 2.4 kernel and fighting to death with lilo 22:55:14 didn't work with my modem so I gave up 22:55:17 that was times 22:55:18 I think I got it working circa 2006 22:55:21 *nostalgic* 22:55:40 first time I used was back with red hat 5.x iirc 22:55:48 or maybe 6.0 22:56:07 ehird, I did this in Connitx VirtualPC on a 300 MHz ibook (first model) 22:56:11 DOES NOBODY WANT TO ENTERTAIN MY NOTIONS ;_; 22:56:23 didn't have enough disk space to install anything but a very basic system 22:56:32 ehird, eh? 22:56:35 what notions 22:56:40 os ranting :D 22:56:43 ah 22:56:55 ehird, oh yes System 7... 22:56:58 fun times 22:57:05 crashed more than windows 95 22:57:09 though less than ME 22:57:11 system 7 was quite nice 22:57:19 i've only used it like once or twice 22:57:20 ehird, oh yes except when macbug opened 22:57:21 :P 22:57:25 yeah, nice when it worked :P 22:58:00 ehird, and no silly eye candy like windows going down into the dock like they were drawn down by a vacuum cleaner 22:58:08 ugh, I hate that animation 22:58:15 thankfully there isn't much else like it in os x 22:58:21 if you didn't guess: I hate it too 22:58:40 ehird, it still wins the price for worst eye candy ever IMO 22:58:49 I'll agree with that 22:58:52 even compiz comes at second place after that 22:59:01 and I really really really hate compiz 22:59:16 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:59:21 I think these fans are making the computer hotter. 22:59:27 heck if I want to minimize a window I want to do it now, I don't want to wait for a bloody animation 22:59:42 this is not a trial version after all 22:59:48 why should I have to live with such stuff 23:00:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:00:03 ehird, really how would the fans make it hotter!? 23:00:09 that makes no sense 23:00:11 AnMaster: the heat of their operation :-D 23:00:14 hi oerjan 23:00:22 ehird, sure it isn't offset by the fans? 23:00:39 also um... haven't figured out how to turn them off yet? 23:00:41 it's very hot, if the fans are _cooling_ it I want to know why it's so hot 23:00:43 ehird, try fancontrol maybe 23:00:47 it's from lm_sensors 23:00:55 nothing can be hot unless it's got fans, that's obvious 23:00:56 yeah, it fails because I have no /etc/fancontrol 23:01:02 oh 23:01:03 err 23:01:06 oerjan: lol 23:01:25 ehird, iirc you use pwmconfig to generate it 23:01:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 23:01:36 ehird, man page agrees with me 23:01:50 Since most of you are going to use pwmconfig(8) script, the config file syntax will be discussed last. First I'm going to describe the var- 23:01:50 ious variables available for changing fancontrol's behaviour: 23:02:01 /usr/sbin/pwmconfig: There are no pwm-capable sensor modules installed 23:02:48 um 23:02:59 ehird, I guess your fan is controlled with ACPI then 23:03:02 or applesmc 23:03:08 applesmc. :P 23:03:53 ehird, fun thing is it detects some things to change fan speed and even where to read fan speed, but changing them actually doesn't do anything 23:03:55 :/ 23:03:59 for my computer 23:04:11 and looking at the mobo the fan isn't controllable 23:04:23 hey oerjan, want to hear my ranting? 23:04:34 ehird, it was constant speed under the preinstalled winxp too 23:04:47 ehird, idea: 23:04:50 sensors-detect 23:04:53 as root 23:04:59 may find some way to read temp 23:05:09 Use driver `i2c-i801' for device 0000:00:1f.3: Intel 82801G ICH7 23:05:12 ehird, it may even be able to handle smc thing 23:05:17 o.o 23:05:21 ehird, yes it prints lots of stuff 23:05:33 ehird, see if it finds anything in the end 23:05:42 Driver `coretemp' (should be inserted): 23:05:44 Detects correctly: 23:05:45 * Chip `Intel Core family thermal sensor' (confidence: 9) 23:05:47 maybe? 23:05:48 yay 23:05:57 ehird, that allows reading temp from cpu 23:05:58 however 23:06:11 ehird@fhtagn:~$ sudo modprobe coretemp 23:06:12 some intel core* had broken temp sensors 23:06:13 ehird@fhtagn:~$ 23:06:14 hokay 23:06:16 know CPU errata 23:06:18 now what 23:06:23 ehird, um didn't it print more 23:06:27 did sensors-detect finish? 23:06:27 nope 23:06:29 yep 23:06:36 ehird, did it tell you to edit some file? 23:06:43 like /etc/sensors.conf 23:06:48 and add specific lines? 23:06:50 or such 23:06:51 just /etc/modules to add coretemp 23:06:52 if not: 23:07:00 sudo sensors 23:07:08 hopefully that will print something like temp 23:07:09 for cpus 23:07:13 it has the applesmc stuff 23:07:17 ehird, :D 23:07:26 ehird, not fan control yet, but you can see temp now 23:07:27 temperature for both around 35C 23:07:29 I hope 23:07:35 ehird, ok then why so hot 23:07:36 ERROR: Can't get value of subfeature temp3_input: I/O error 23:07:37 * oerjan notes (again) that irssi doesn't mark lines containing my nick without a : after 23:07:39 prints the same for 5 and 9 23:07:40 35C sunds normal 23:07:42 odd 23:07:45 AnMaster: it is normal 23:07:47 ERROR: Can't get value of subfeature temp3_input: I/O error <-- weird yeah 23:07:49 well 23:07:53 temp4: +50.8°C 23:07:55 ehird, my CPU is 29 C atm though 23:07:55 that's quite high 23:07:58 I dunno what they are though 23:08:03 they don't seem to be the cpu 23:08:15 AnMaster: my CPU is more powerful :P 23:08:40 ehird, on PCs you can usually do like "go into bios, check temp, write down what each one is", go into linux, compare temps and find out which one maps to what 23:08:44 however that would be hard on macs 23:08:47 mm 23:08:52 okay, so I have temperature measures 23:08:54 no auto fan control thouh 23:08:57 ehird, YET 23:09:02 :-D 23:09:10 * AnMaster is searching gentoo packages for "apple" and "fan" atm 23:09:39 AnMaster: wouldn't that tend to find a lot of cursing? 23:09:59 oerjan, pun detected but not understood 23:10:16 "damn apple fans" and such 23:10:27 err 23:10:28 what? 23:10:32 * ehird installs sbcl 23:10:34 oh 23:10:40 it's not a linux system if you don't have SBCL! 23:10:45 oerjan, package database, as in searching portage 23:10:51 # eix -cS apple 23:10:51 [N] app-cdr/gcdemu (1.0.0): gCDEmu is a GNOME applet for controlling CDEmu daemon 23:10:51 [N] app-i18n/imhangul-status-applet (~0.3-r1): Status Applet for imhangul 23:10:51 [N] app-laptop/gkrellm-pmu (--): GKrellM2 plugin for battery display on Apple machines 23:10:55 and so on 23:11:03 yeah finds lot of "applet" 23:11:26 * (* 29834923847239472934783947239842 198438712364872634872347682637482163478) 23:11:27 5920403871750233040095493286841638728722288213740963433203084718890476 23:11:29 sbcl works :P 23:11:31 if it can do regexes, try apple\> or whatever 23:11:50 oerjan, what regex dialect would that be 23:12:16 well vim i think 23:12:20 mhm 23:12:31 actually I would need PCRE here 23:12:35 to do a negative lookahead 23:12:41 but this seems like POSIX regex 23:13:08 perl doesn't have an end-of-word marker? 23:13:16 oerjan, err this isn't perl 23:13:20 it is using POSIX 23:13:32 well same question 23:13:58 i thought POSIX was similar to vim anyhow, at least more than to perl 23:14:17 eix -cS apple | pcregrep -i 'apple(?!t)' | grep --color=yes -i apple 23:14:19 that works 23:14:25 ugly yes 23:15:16 ok \> is definitely grep too 23:16:03 so eix -cS apple | grep --color=yes -i 'apple\>' 23:17:12 well unless you insist on allowing letters other than t 23:17:42 ehird, hm... 23:17:53 ehird, what kernel version? 23:17:55 uname -a 23:18:04 Linux fhtagn 2.6.27-7-generic #1 SMP Tue Nov 4 19:33:06 UTC 2008 x86_64 GNU/Linux 23:18:08 hm ok 23:19:06 ehird, this applesmc driver is unusually badly documented 23:19:09 what about: 23:19:12 sudo modinfo applsmc 23:19:14 err 23:19:16 sudo modinfo applesmc 23:19:24 filename: /lib/modules/2.6.27-7-generic/kernel/drivers/hwmon/applesmc.ko 23:19:25 license: GPL v2 23:19:27 description: Apple SMC 23:19:28 author: Nicolas Boichat 23:19:30 srcversion: 25CB42F01F4B61FD05EC33F 23:19:31 depends: led-class,input-polldev 23:19:33 vermagic: 2.6.27-7-generic SMP mod_unload modversions 23:19:34 totally helpful 23:19:40 not very indeed 23:19:44 ehird, sometimes it has stuff like: 23:19:49 parm: scatter_elem_sz:scatter gather element size (default: max(SG_SCATTER_SZ, PAGE_SIZE)) (int) 23:19:49 parm: def_reserved_size:size of buffer reserved for each fd (int) 23:19:49 parm: allow_dio:allow direct I/O (default: 0 (disallow)) (int) 23:19:51 or such 23:19:57 module parameters 23:20:01 that control behaviour 23:20:09 like for the nfs module, what ports to use 23:21:02 ehird, anyway, did you poke around in sysfs 23:21:10 possible the same directory or the one just above 23:21:17 also symlinks are relevant 23:21:19 mm, I've poked around 23:21:20 not much unfortunatel 23:21:24 ah 23:21:26 oh well 23:21:55 ehird, anything in /proc/sys about fan? 23:21:59 or applesmc 23:22:15 ehird@fhtagn:/proc/sys$ find . -name apple 23:22:16 ehird@fhtagn:/proc/sys$ find . -name fan 23:22:18 ehird@fhtagn:/proc/sys$ 23:22:25 ah 23:22:34 ehird, anyway the stuff for fan should be in sysfs 23:22:38 -!- M0ny has joined. 23:23:00 ehird, just this file is using so many macros I'm not sure how it works 23:23:47 yeah 23:23:51 I doubt it's worth bothering 23:23:52 ehird, find /sys -name '*fan*_safe*' 23:23:53 try that 23:24:06 I believe it will be stuff like fan1_safe 23:24:13 and in the same directory there should be other control files 23:24:15 /sys/devices/platform/applesmc.768/fan3_safe 23:24:16 /sys/devices/platform/applesmc.768/fan2_safe 23:24:18 /sys/devices/platform/applesmc.768/fan1_safe 23:24:19 yay 23:24:30 AnMaster: i did find /sys applesmc yknow 23:24:34 didn't you read the output? :P 23:24:35 ehird, in that directory there will be other fan[1-3]_* 23:24:37 also yes, a lot of stuff 23:24:44 one of them allows write 23:24:48 http://rafb.net/p/O7ipKO59.html 23:24:59 ehird, fan##offset##_min 23:25:03 where you replace that 23:25:16 replace the ##offset## bit I mean 23:25:25 ehird@fhtagn:/sys/devices/platform/applesmc.768$ cat fan{1,2,3}_{min,max} 23:25:27 800 23:25:28 5000 23:25:30 1400 23:25:31 5000 23:25:33 800 23:25:34 3600 23:25:37 ehird, maybe lower the minimum will help 23:25:43 not sure if it is safe or not 23:25:45 I'm not sure I want to mess around with that 23:25:51 ehird, nor am I 23:25:51 as far as I can tell, these fans are on one setting 23:25:53 permanently 23:25:54 atm 23:25:59 ehird, atm yes 23:26:05 applesmc_store_fan_manual 23:26:06 err 23:26:14 fan##offset##_manual 23:26:15 maybe 23:26:18 all at 0 23:26:32 ok, fan 1 @ 859 23:26:34 err 23:26:35 fan 2 @ 1481 23:26:37 fan 3 @ 1223 23:26:42 so only fan3 is more than a tiny bit above default 23:26:44 ehird, let me check how that works 23:26:52 those are fanN_input 23:26:56 ah 23:26:58 what do they do? 23:27:03 list the current 23:27:04 speed 23:27:09 ah right 23:27:28 #define FANS_MANUAL "FS! " /* r-w ui16 */ 23:27:30 right 23:27:34 that was very useful 23:27:35 not 23:27:37 :D 23:27:52 ehird, very poorly documented this... 23:28:12 guys. is it just me or are you being really boring? 23:28:24 oklopol: shall I RANT ABOUT OSES?!?!?!?! 23:28:45 i'd love to see rant about oses 23:28:50 just not specific instances of oses 23:28:55 ofc 23:28:57 it's a rant in general 23:29:00 and also crazy ideas I have 23:29:04 colon bar 23:29:06 (I can't type a bar) 23:29:15 i have a lot of os ideas 23:29:23 mine are better you should listen to them. 23:29:33 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:29:39 ehird, is your model "imac"? 23:29:48 yes 23:29:58 imac g5 is ppc I guess 23:30:00 my ideas are sexually meaningful. 23:30:00 so what imac 23:30:06 oklopol: mine also. 23:30:08 oh. 23:30:11 AnMaster: one just after g5 23:30:16 september 2006 intel core 2 duo 23:30:17 ehird, what do I google for 23:30:18 are yours gradually approachable? 23:30:18 NOT aluminium 23:30:24 AnMaster: erm, imac core 2 duo 23:30:26 oklopol: yes. 23:30:27 ah 23:30:28 also gradually unapproachable. 23:30:31 hah. mine aren't. 23:30:34 they get more and more taboo. it ends with child rape. 23:30:40 SO ANYWAY. 23:30:46 you can only gradually approach that which is close to what you already know. 23:30:54 and mine are lightyears ahead. 23:30:57 oklopol: i invented a new type of gradual approaching. 23:31:04 oh 23:31:08 well that does sound kinda serious. 23:31:08 it involves making bad analogies to current systems, then outright explaining the radical ideas 23:31:12 your brain goes into shock and then absorbs it. 23:31:18 :D 23:31:20 okay i love it 23:31:27 where do i send my moneys 23:31:43 4 orchard terrace, hexham, northumberland, united kingdom, ne46 3pw 23:31:47 (yes that's my real address) 23:32:12 hmm. 23:32:19 now is it really? 23:32:21 yep. 23:32:24 at least it's close. 23:32:42 so sounds plausible it'd be correct 23:32:47 then again you probably know what i know. 23:33:09 because you're the only source for that type of data. 23:33:33 :d 23:33:35 :d 23:33:36 :d 23:33:38 agh 23:33:39 I CAN'T SHIFT 23:33:43 ah 23:33:44 there 23:33:45 ehird, what? 23:33:49 AnMaster: nothin 23:33:50 g 23:33:52 adjusting keyboard layout 23:33:53 huh 23:33:56 ehird, ah 23:34:00 ehird, you found it? 23:34:03 yah 23:34:13 so oklopol can I explain my os-ly ideas 23:34:15 oh I guess it is different for ubuntu, probably has some fancy place to do it 23:34:20 AnMaster: no, just kde 23:34:22 in system prefs 23:34:28 ehird, ah what about console? 23:34:34 ah you don't care I guess 23:34:36 :P 23:34:37 bingo :P 23:34:44 if I'm at the console my objective is to escape it asap 23:34:49 probably I broke X 23:34:51 okay funniest thing in at least 10 minutes 23:34:57 "ehird: I CAN'T SHIFT" <<< thought you said "SHIT" 23:35:01 it was funny with the smileys. 23:35:03 i did 23:35:04 secretly 23:35:06 ehird, did you try looking for some apple irc channel? 23:35:06 :| 23:35:09 I'm sure there is one 23:35:21 AnMaster: sure, but not linux+mac 23:35:26 ehird, ah 23:35:28 sure? 23:35:30 ehird: you can explain sure. 23:35:30 yep 23:35:33 * ehird installs emacs 23:35:42 ehird, I heard there was one called #esoteric or something.. 23:35:45 :-D 23:35:55 oklopol: okay so before I start, I have to explainerate the context of this OS 23:36:08 well sure explainerate through it. 23:36:26 basically, a simple bootloader and system setup sort of stuff in asm, then it runs a lisp compiler like sbcl and compiles the rest of the kernel & os on the fly 23:36:27 then it runs them 23:36:28 how fun, I google for linux fancontrol imac intel' 23:36:31 err -' 23:36:34 this has the effect that the rest of the OS is written in lisp 23:36:38 and the first hit doesn't have "linux" on it 23:36:39 anywhere 23:36:40 and you can modify right down to the kernel at runtime 23:36:43 stupid google 23:36:44 and it works 23:36:53 (you can't modify the asm part but that's just a tiny part, only for bootup) 23:36:59 and you can modify right down to the kernel at runtime <-- you mean hot patch kernel at runtime 23:37:02 AnMaster: yep 23:37:03 sorry MS patent 23:37:08 i don't care 23:37:09 that is what prevented it for linux 23:37:09 hah. 23:37:13 it's been done before MS did it 23:37:27 if they sue me 1) i'm a minor 2) that patent would be struck down almost certainly 23:37:50 oklopol: so, not only do we have lisp (awesome) we have an OS that you can hack random stuff in oko-style just like that 23:37:57 pretty good basis if I do say so myself 23:38:30 Somehow I doubt there's going to be anything new with PLAN9 Unix. 23:38:32 http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/ 23:38:33 I installed it once, nothing runs, nothing works, it's very cut down. I think it uses TWM, but with not even as much as Firefox existing, I'm unsure how useful it could be. 23:38:35 ^^ please let that be sarcasm 23:38:57 AnMaster: so what exactly did they patent? the general concept of being able to change parts of the os at runtime? 23:39:00 ehird, http://lwn.net/Articles/280058/ 23:39:02 oklopol, ^ 23:39:06 what's the definition of hot-patching a kernel 23:39:12 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:39:15 oklopol, see that link 23:39:23 oh and http://www.ksplice.com/ 23:39:31 AnMaster: that's a US-only patent right? 23:39:40 ehird, don't know 23:39:43 then people in the US use the system at their own risk :P 23:39:51 (where risk = 0) 23:40:04 AnMaster: software patents are invalid in europe 23:40:07 due to recent court ruling 23:40:08 s 23:40:11 ehird, :) 23:40:20 but I'm sure MS and others will try to change that 23:40:29 yeah 23:40:32 you can't be sure how long it will last 23:40:47 anyway, yeah, the lisp isn't an interpreter, so it's fast enough for an OS, 23:40:50 but it's more jit-style 23:40:52 except ... more batch 23:41:01 as in, it can recompile on the fly, but it doesn't do it every line of code 23:41:07 eh 23:41:09 hm? 23:41:16 AnMaster: the lisp in my os 23:41:22 ehird, how will you manage to avoid some low level asm? 23:41:28 custom instruction set? 23:41:36 no, there will be some asm 23:41:38 ah 23:41:40 for the initial bootup and really low level stuff 23:41:45 ehird, that can be changed on fly? 23:41:51 no, unfortunately not 23:41:56 but the compiler will probably have inline asm 23:41:56 ehird, why not? 23:42:08 AnMaster: because modifying bootup stuff is useless 23:42:12 you have to reboot to run it anyway 23:42:14 ehird, also have you looked at QNX? 23:42:17 yes 23:42:25 isn't it semi-open now 23:42:30 but anyway, a lot of the stuff you might think needs asm might not 23:42:31 not sure what license 23:42:32 due to inline asm in the lisp 23:42:36 (and ofc you could modify that) 23:42:37 does that patent only apply to computers? 23:42:39 but pretty sure it is open/shared source atm 23:42:42 oh 23:42:44 says so right. 23:43:12 ok, heretical idea #2: 23:43:18 oklopol, What you just said sounded very interesting but I'm not sure where you can take that 23:43:23 anyway you can't patent that. while it may not be true, it's a fact. 23:43:39 ehird, where was idea #1? 23:43:40 AnMaster: well i was just wondering what exactly it is they patented 23:43:51 AnMaster: the lisp-recompilingy thingy u pthere 23:43:58 oklopol, ask a lawyer, no one else can read the text 23:44:05 ehird, ah 23:44:10 so idea 2: 23:44:12 so what is idea #2 then? 23:44:40 brb 23:44:41 orthogonal persistence. this is, very simply, persistence of memory to disk. To quote Torsion's readme: (torsion was an experimental OS implementing orthogonal persistence:) 23:44:42 and how can you invent hot-patching, not doing hot-patching is not theoretically meaningful, it's just a performance optimization. 23:44:42 What this means is that you can write a valueto anywhere in memory, [...], trip over the power cable, and then on the next boot that value 23:44:44 will still be exactly where you set it in memory. What's more, you can 23:44:45 malloc() a chunk of memory, and on the next boot it will remain allocated. 23:45:07 so, after a memory-changing operation is performed, it works immediately, after a tiny delay, it's written to disk 23:45:17 the same is done for computations: so you can be in the middle of an intensive 3d render 23:45:21 **trip over power cable** 23:45:22 reboot it 23:45:24 it resumes like nothing happened 23:45:29 ehird, that would probably have performance issues due to the speed diff between ram and disk 23:45:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("bye"). 23:45:34 AnMaster: that's why you wait a bita 23:45:37 and do it in another thread 23:45:49 all operations just go to RAM, the disk stuff just runs in the background at oppertune times 23:45:59 ehird, to make that useful you would need some sort of transactional stuff 23:46:01 for everything 23:46:05 AnMaster: not quite 23:46:13 there are ways to do it, but too boring/long to explain here 23:46:19 ehird, otherwise this will cause everything to break at crash really 23:46:23 no 23:46:26 there are implementations that work 23:46:31 you just don't have enough of an imagination :) 23:46:34 really? links or what? 23:46:37 ehird: while no current os may support those, they aren't exactly very interesting. you're just removing limitations that shouldn't be there in the first place. 23:46:42 http://torsion.org 23:46:44 oklopol: those come later 23:46:48 I'm going more heretical as it goes on 23:46:49 since I have not enough of an imagination to know what to google for 23:46:50 ah i see. 23:46:54 anyway, so, orthogonal persistence: it's possible, it's been done for quite a long time, and it means just saying no to data loss & computation loss 23:46:57 additionally 23:47:27 this means you can COMPLETELY DO AWAY WITH THE FILESYSTEM. Just use memory. One address space. Clean, logical, simple, efficient. Instead of the monocultured interface of the FS, data can be presented in various ways according to its type and the best representation. 23:47:29 http://torsion.org <-- any introduction? Like readme or whatever. the docs seems like doxygen api docs 23:47:35 *AnMaster explodes* 23:47:41 AnMaster: nope. it's dormant. read the code. 23:47:52 I see 23:47:59 * AnMaster opens url in ark 23:48:17 ehird: so stuff to memory persistently all the time, is it a log-structured fs or something? 23:48:18 ah README 23:48:19 so, heretical ideas: 1) runtime-modifiable lisp OS 2) orthogonal persistence 2a) no FS -- just use orthogonal persistence 23:48:34 oklopol: you pretty much just mirror the memory to disk 23:48:52 ehird, fun fact about this: memory leaks persist until you free them by hand 23:48:53 :D 23:48:59 2a is a bit more heretical, but it's still something i can't imagine anyone *not* having in an os, file systems make absolutely no sense. 23:49:15 oklopol: i totally agree 23:49:19 you do? 23:49:21 OSes today are just crap 23:49:24 ehird, which is hard since you don't know where they are 23:49:27 since they leaked 23:49:28 this stuff is pretty obvious 23:49:36 i'm pretty sure i've said that before and you've laughed at my weirdness 23:49:38 ehird, you need to somehow handle memory leaks 23:49:38 but maybe not 23:49:41 AnMaster: you can use regular tools like valgrind 23:49:48 plus, most stuff should be written using a high level language 23:49:52 like, y'know, the lisp :P 23:50:00 for legacy C programs, wrap a gc or whatever around them. 23:50:23 but I'm mostly unconcerned about backwards compatibility; that just leads to cruft 23:50:28 ehird, how could you garbage collect the lisp, you would need to mark the persistent object to not GC or such 23:50:41 AnMaster: sure, you mark documents you want as kept 23:50:48 it's just a few trix 23:50:51 oklopol's useful tip #1: forget legacy code, being backwards-compatible is for monkeys 23:50:56 ehird, then it isn't full orthogonal persistence for everything? 23:50:59 it is 23:51:02 hm ok 23:51:06 oklopol: i have some actually heretical ideas, but OSes today are so ridiculously behind that you have to go gradually 23:51:19 i pretty much plan to implement the should-already-exist heretical ones, then experiment further with the more heretical ones 23:51:26 ehird: true. 23:51:33 but for your avg linux user, 1-2a are already pretty wtfy 23:51:40 * AnMaster ponders real word reference counting garbage collection 23:51:42 in fact 23:51:45 I think it is happening 23:51:54 AnMaster: reminds me of my tiny url garbage collector 23:52:04 or why is everyone trying to get referenced in papers and such 23:52:09 you scan all atoms in the universe for references to the URL, encrypted in any way shape or form 23:52:11 AnMaster: you mean like ppl coming to your house and observing what you're using and what not, and taking away the stuff that you don't? 23:52:13 if there's none, remove the URL. 23:52:19 and scientific papers wants to get referenced by other papers 23:52:25 to not become garbage collected 23:52:31 same as people in media 23:52:46 heh 23:52:59 oklopol: wanna share some of your ideas? i've probably heard of them but i'm intrigued 23:53:05 more people know about you = less risk of being collected by the ninja garbage collectors 23:53:05 :D 23:53:14 i love ninjas. sexually. 23:53:15 err. 23:53:17 ehird: well actually to be clear i don't consider 1 a feature every os should absolutely have :P 23:53:20 disregard that 23:53:20 ehird, hah 23:53:25 oklopol: you're wrong :D 23:53:26 but maybe i should. 23:53:27 yeah 23:53:29 probably 23:53:30 :) 23:53:33 ehird, ninja NOMADS?! 23:53:42 AnMaster: yes. they're purely functional, you must understand. 23:53:47 no unneccessary objects on them. 23:53:47 oh no I think ehird's brain exploded 23:54:11 oklopol: in fact, my features are only a small step to be considered "decent" by me. i have a very high standard of "decent", "good" is near impossible :P 23:55:12 ehird, I think in real world, for things to be useful, certain things need to be "weakrefs" 23:55:21 AnMaster: yes, this is all details 23:55:22 ninja MONADS!! 23:55:23 or you would only keep the worst 23:55:25 the basic idea is what matters 23:55:26 I mean 23:55:33 stuff like bad politicians 23:55:34 and such 23:55:39 ehird: my ideas are pretty simple, i just want everything to use a unified very dynamic object type. webpages containing pictures actually being just a list of picture objects on a remote site (which you cannot in general detect) and all that. type conversion being a very fundamental concept in the os, for "different formats", that is different implementations of the same concept. 23:55:40 would never be garbage collected 23:55:46 even though they should 23:55:54 oklopol: right, that's more higher level than I've been talkin' about 23:56:04 ehird: yes, but i'm a nutcase 23:56:06 :D 23:56:08 :D 23:56:12 ehird, btw you shouldn't use a refcount GC 23:56:17 yeah no shit 23:56:19 i know this 23:56:44 ehird, I read some article by jwz complaining about current GCs, but he didn't explain what a good one actually was 23:56:55 jews are like that 23:57:00 always complaining about gc 23:57:01 oklopol, ? 23:57:04 jwz = jews. 23:57:05 what? 23:57:07 pronounciation 23:57:09 err 23:57:11 ah 23:57:15 now I didn't mean that 23:57:23 well when did you mean it? 23:57:24 AnMaster: I recall around jan 08 you said that all gcs suck, and you should do it the "proper way" (malloc/free) 23:57:26 I mean jwz as in the well known programmer jwz 23:57:31 also you were basing this entirely on experience with java 23:57:36 oklopol, worked at netscape 23:57:37 the channel had quite a laugh... 23:57:47 AnMaster: stop ruining his pun : 23:57:49 :P 23:58:01 ehird, yes I still think bohem-gc isn't a very good GC, but I'm interested in seeing a good one 23:58:13 take a look at the sbcl gc, cheney on the mta, Factor's gc 23:58:16 this is because bohem-gc managed to cause memory corruption 23:58:18 who cares as long as it's asymptotically optimal :o 23:58:22 ehird, hm ok I will 23:58:32 AnMaster: boehm has issues because it's in C 23:58:43 the bohemes never got rid of their garbage 23:58:50 i would probably enjoy making a theoretical os for a turing machine more than an actual os. 23:58:50 ehird, yes indeed. So why is the Python GC even worse 23:58:51 you can only have conservative gc 23:58:55 -!- M0ny has quit ("Quit"). 23:58:55 would be pretty cool 23:58:57 AnMaster: python is just not a very good impl 23:59:02 ehird, perl GC? 23:59:06 and 23:59:07 oklopol: but imagine using your OS 4eva 23:59:09 AnMaster: those are just refcounting 23:59:10 why doesn't someone replace them 23:59:11 refcounting is shite 23:59:12 i hope i'm as crazy as i am now when i grow up and know all kindsa awesome shit. 23:59:15 and because nobody cares enough 23:59:36 ehird, I agree. So what I want is an introduction to GOOD GCs. 23:59:49 the people who would write such things are busy making money off language impls :P 23:59:49 ehird: well my dream is to make the perfect os, and use it alone because no one else is willing to start over :D 23:59:57 (and also because i'm not going to advertise it)