2009-02-01: 00:00:18 Who's FireFly 00:00:22 I'm me 00:00:34 .. 00:00:36 :D 00:00:38 AnMaster: But like I said, Mathematica has *3,000* mainspace builtins. 00:00:42 no module system? 00:00:48 yes. 00:00:52 but the builtins don't use it. 00:00:59 -!- comexk has changed nick to comex. 00:01:10 all the cool guys just use a massive global namespace..... 00:01:24 Do you want to see my massive global namespace? 00:01:29 If you know what I mean 00:01:37 you bet i know what you mean to see 00:01:47 Slereah2: say no more say no more 00:01:50 can you all just have sex already or something so you can stop being suggestive all the time 00:01:59 :D 00:02:10 ehird: i don't think that would help, do you? 00:02:10 so 00:02:15 oerjan : NUDGE NUDGE 00:02:19 did you notice the 8-7-6-5 00:02:20 oerjan: maybe not but they could make a video ;-) 00:02:21 WINK WINK 00:02:21 <_< 00:02:30 *badum tish* 00:02:38 oklopol: no 00:02:39 slerry is 8, i'm 7, oerjan is 6, ehird is 5 00:02:42 it was awesome 00:02:54 oerjan is 6 00:02:54 XDDD 00:02:55 what? 00:03:06 wat 00:03:07 nick 00:03:07 huh? 00:03:07 lengths 00:03:10 nick lengths. 00:03:16 ah 00:03:49 and here i was thinking maybe it was a bit underestimatory to actually explain that to you, i mean, umm, how could you not spot a 8765 when you see one. 00:04:11 i mean it's pretty much the coolest sequence you've seen. 00:04:26 oklopol: it's not every client that makes that easily visible you know 00:04:41 also not everyone has superhuman eyes like you 00:04:57 oerjan: maybe you should learn lisp, you know, see beyond syntax and shit. 00:05:11 my eyes are actually hurting like hell atm. 00:05:16 * oerjan has done a tiny bit 00:05:20 probably from all the divinely magnificent usage. 00:05:55 oklopol: just be careful that your laser vision doesn't turn on accidentally when you are tired. it's hell on monitors. 00:06:43 <- always the one with the useful advice 00:07:24 i can't form senten 00:07:27 have sleap... 00:07:28 prolly 00:07:35 you know 00:07:55 i was thinking 00:08:00 maybe i should take a few week hiatos 00:08:04 *hiatus 00:08:05 oklopol: you cannot interrupt sentences like that without saying candlejack fi 00:08:07 and just you know code 00:08:09 ugh 00:09:22 i mean i have a lot of stuff i know exactly how to do, just would have to actually do it, like say graverse 00:09:32 -!- yoR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:10:16 and yet it'd be so cool 00:10:20 like insanely cool 00:10:23 man oklopol you should try mathematica 00:10:26 olsner: i dont know how to use them until i understand them :p 00:10:27 you can PLAY the reimann zeta function 00:10:30 cool insanity 00:10:31 as a sound. 00:10:34 ive never even seen real examples. meh. 00:10:36 hah. 00:10:38 Play[RiemannSiegelZ[1000 t], {t, 0, 1}] 00:10:39 *heh. 00:10:40 man it sounds awesome. 00:10:45 bwoooooooooooop 00:11:49 must do so. 00:11:59 but i can't really, you know, be excited 00:12:09 i'm so damn high on tiredness. 00:12:24 psygnisf_: of course you won't, but that doesn't mean you can't use them 00:12:28 so, umm, i think i'm gonna sleep now -> 00:12:59 its just not how i learn, olsner 00:13:10 i need to actually SEE something be used to understand it. 00:13:25 once i see it, its trivial. but i need to see it used. 00:14:26 just read arbitrary haskell programs, find instances of 'do', >>=, >> and return, find out what each instance does 00:14:43 no no no 00:14:46 i dont mean used like that 00:14:48 oklopol: WAIT 00:14:48 i mean like 00:14:51 Play[RiemannSiegelZ[1000 If[t < 5, t, 10 - t]], {t, 0, 10}] 00:14:53 it goes woop up 00:14:54 then WOOP DOWN 00:14:59 coooo. 00:15:02 i need to see the actual process that occurs when they're used 00:15:10 *badum tish* <-- ?? 00:15:19 AnMaster: it's a rimshot. 00:15:44 bottom dish 00:15:48 psygnisf_: and the problem is, the process is different for each monad... 00:15:50 *oh*, might be difficult since that process is inside the brain of another haskell coder... 00:15:54 sleep - > > 00:16:05 WHY IS MATHEMATICA SO SLOW 00:16:06 :( 00:16:12 oerjan: im sure its different, overall, but theres got to be something i can get out of seeing it used. 00:16:47 A good PlayRange could not be found since most of the samples are not \ 00:16:47 evaluating to machine-size real numbers. 00:16:49 dick butt 00:17:12 honestly tho, i dont need if i need to use monads. 00:17:59 "A rimshot is the sound produced by hitting the rim and the head of a drum at once, with a drum stick. Rimshots are usually played to produce a more accented note, and are typically played loudly. However, soft rim shots are possible." 00:18:00 what 00:18:00 psygnisf_: you considered passing a world state? iirc that's what clean and mercury do, as well as ghc internally 00:18:06 ehird, you make no sense 00:18:16 the problem is to make sure old world states are not reused 00:18:17 lol anmy :P 00:18:19 AnMaster: fail. 00:18:24 it's used by bad comedians. 00:18:33 to mark a joke. 00:18:34 ehird, a drum? 00:18:38 oh I see 00:18:46 the bad-dum-tish sound 00:18:46 what i mean is more that like.. the only stuff i might need a monad for is IO, i think 00:19:04 aha 00:19:24 and for that i could just have some built in thing that evaluates IO in an appropriate fashion 00:19:28 psygnisf_: 00:19:47 psygnisf_: http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:qlfzNPE8WqgJ:mauke.ath.cx/stuff/haskell/how-to-io.html+%22how+to+io%22+mauke&hl=de&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=de&client=firefox-a 00:19:50 that explains how the IO monad works 00:19:51 properly 00:19:52 and simply 00:19:55 you're welcome 00:20:00 psygnisf_: there is also the control streams used by the first haskell versions 00:20:09 control streams? 00:20:39 psygnisf_: just read it 00:20:40 the whole program takes a stream as argument and returns a stream 00:20:42 oerjan: ssh you :P 00:20:48 ah. 00:20:50 eugh. 00:21:11 wha 00:21:11 but it's not a stream of characters, but of control commands 00:21:12 t 00:21:16 shush oerjan :P 00:22:06 iirc that was hell, so they embedded that in a continuation framework 00:22:19 you could use continuations too 00:22:32 they're a bit like monads light 00:22:56 i dont even know if continuations are possible :D 00:23:07 in my system i mean 00:23:12 is your language functional? 00:23:15 no. 00:23:22 its a tree rewriting system. 00:23:41 if it doesn't have first class functions then continuations will be hard, as will monads i think 00:23:50 i know. 00:23:57 it doesnt have _anything_ other than rewriting. 00:24:00 oerjan, still possible though 00:24:27 it might be possible to make rewrite rules first class. but theres no such thing as a function in this system 00:26:28 oh well then i assume you would have IO rewrite rules with a side effect 00:27:02 except it's lazy. 00:27:22 that's not necessarily a problem 00:27:30 it is lazy. and there are no real sideeffects other then that some tree evaluates down to some terminal 00:27:42 or possible evaluates down to a terminal. 00:27:51 oh well 00:37:29 the way im doing it right now, is that when outputting it forces applicative order evaluation 00:39:28 at least to an extent. 00:40:40 in a sense, bind is a flat-map 00:40:53 Scala calls it that, more or less 00:42:47 as in, the objects supporting the flatmap method are those that can use its for comprehension syntax iirc, and comprehension is equivalent to haskell's do notation 00:44:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:12:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:13:43 lalala 01:15:13 tara BOOM 01:16:34 so what else should i include as a primitive in my language, do you think? 01:17:06 neanderthals 01:19:52 ! 01:19:57 brilliant idea! :O 01:20:49 trilobites, maybe 01:21:23 im having massive problems preview songs from itunes :( 01:21:40 cannot help you there 02:24:31 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 03:16:32 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 04:18:20 -!- adimit has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:26:38 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 04:42:03 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:45:42 -!- amca has joined. 04:52:37 -!- X-Scale has left (?). 05:27:01 -!- psygnisf_ has quit ("Leaving..."). 06:50:11 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:50:39 -!- GregorR has joined. 07:02:46 -!- impomatic has joined. 07:47:19 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:12:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 09:51:42 glio 10:19:00 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 10:38:17 -!- kar8nga has joined. 10:47:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 10:54:54 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:22:05 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:26:33 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:30:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:32:17 Why are <> and [] reserved in Underload? 11:33:30 maybe because ais523 wanted to have the possibility to extend it? 11:33:46 -!- sebbu has quit ("Quitte"). 11:33:55 sebbu agrees with me. 11:34:43 +ul ("<)S 11:36:03 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:37:28 ^ul ("<)S 11:37:40 ... neither bot online... 11:38:06 well neither implements that parts afair 11:38:12 *part 11:46:57 afaic... 11:48:06 afaiq 11:50:04 ewww 11:50:55 afaimucots 11:52:13 that one i don't know 11:52:31 as far as i make up completely on the spot 11:53:29 :--.o 12:10:26 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1"). 12:26:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:32:07 -!- alex89ru has joined. 12:32:11 hihi 12:36:07 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:42:54 -!- Mony has joined. 12:43:58 plop 13:01:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:04:40 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 13:05:02 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:15:59 -!- jix_ has joined. 13:28:29 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:31:20 -!- Judofyr has joined. 13:54:42 Why are <> and [] reserved in Underload? 13:54:45 in practice, they're not 14:11:47 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 14:12:17 -!- Judofyr has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:12:22 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 14:17:31 "MathML, a proprietary HTML-extension" 14:17:51 That darn W3C and its proprietary HTML extensions! 14:21:06 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:46:38 At least here ~ is a dead key too. All three of ^, ~ and ¨ are in a single completely corpse-like key. 14:46:40 Painful. 14:46:44 {2008-04-21} 15:27:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:40:31 -!- FireFly has quit ("Brb"). 15:43:34 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:44:09 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:33:34 -!- ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating..."). 16:35:07 -!- ehird has joined. 16:38:12 -!- comex has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:40:55 -!- comexk has joined. 16:41:09 -!- comexk has quit (Client Quit). 16:41:22 -!- comex has joined. 16:42:59 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:43:46 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:43:47 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 16:48:07 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:55:13 -!- ehird has left (?). 17:00:46 -!- ehird has joined. 17:14:11 -!- X-Scale has joined. 17:15:21 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:18:37 oklopol: what lang were you talking about yesterday? 17:18:38 I forget. 17:19:25 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 17:19:56 -!- Hiato has joined. 17:20:14 at what point 17:20:28 graverse was last 17:26:18 graverse? 17:26:24 yeah. 17:26:38 it's my graph/tree language with j-inspired syntax 17:26:56 do tell 17:26:58 it's pretty coooool 17:27:57 -!- aantn has joined. 17:28:16 the basic idea is graphs are a primitive datatype containing values in nodes (they can be boxed so you can put graphs in there too), and different kinds of searches and rewriting operations are primitive one-char functions 17:30:20 some technicalities are lambdas can have these short "tags", like k{a+b} would be a lambda with tag "k" that sums two things together, and the idea is higher-order functions (traversals and all that) use these as kinda type tags; and you can fold graphs and shit 17:30:38 ic 17:30:41 but oklopol 17:30:45 having functions and stuff is no fun 17:30:48 you should make them just graphs 17:30:49 so programs are often just + 17:30:55 and the tags tell what the lambdas mean 17:31:02 computation is done by inputting a graph that is isomorphic to another graph in a tc way 17:31:07 and it prints out the isomorphee. 17:31:10 that would be crazily pretty. 17:31:24 sure. but that's graphica's territory. 17:31:36 graphica has non-graphs too, no? 17:31:49 technically yes. 17:32:01 but they are essentially just boxed graphs. 17:32:18 boxing is ugly 17:32:28 oklopol: just let nodes be graphs, not strings 17:32:32 and have a () graph 17:32:34 then build numbers like 17:32:35 0 = () 17:32:41 1 = (() -> ()) 17:32:41 etc 17:32:42 nope. boxing is actually a beautiful concept 17:32:47 especially with graphs 17:32:56 yeah, but _just_ having graphs, and the singleton () 17:32:58 is way prettier. 17:33:37 sure you can make it more explicit than graphica does, but that's eodermdrome's or something's territory, not graphicas. 17:33:41 *graphica's 17:34:41 a whole language where you just have graphs and () would be pretty. 17:34:53 and graphs isomorph (yes, that's a verb.) to others in a TC way 17:35:00 also, input format is ascii art. 17:35:02 of a graph. 17:42:47 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:44:47 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 17:52:50 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:01:41 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:03:37 oklopol: I was reading about your graph language and imagining each vertex could countain a function and that its parameters and outputs would flow in and out of it edges. Like a living neural network. 18:03:58 its edges, even. 18:07:12 X-Scale: you should be able to do something like that easily, yes 18:07:44 i could make that one of my test cases; i have a list of stuff i want to be solvable trivially with it 18:11:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:14:50 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:14:51 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 18:22:17 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 18:22:53 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:38:51 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:42:19 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:03:37 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 19:03:45 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 19:03:58 -!- yoR has joined. 19:20:36 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:32:32 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 19:37:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:39:11 #xkcd isn't on freenode anymore? 19:39:42 Ah, foonetic 19:39:57 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:40:09 -!- Slereah2 has quit. 19:40:45 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 19:47:16 -!- aantn has quit. 19:53:49 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:58:27 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 20:10:46 -!- Judofyr has joined. 20:43:36 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 20:45:32 -!- Corun has joined. 20:47:17 Yup ehird. 20:47:32 Yes. I use X-Chat Aqua. 20:49:24 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBpetDxIEMU&feature=channel 20:56:49 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:59:32 -!- Mony has quit ("see ya"). 21:04:40 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:04:40 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 21:08:40 -!- unrelatedguy has joined. 21:08:44 * unrelatedguy = ehird 21:08:46 holy fuck 21:08:49 my disk is full 21:08:51 how 21:08:54 did 21:08:56 that 21:08:59 happen 21:09:01 i didn't do anything, it was nowhere near free 21:09:04 er, full 21:09:06 fuuuuuuck 21:09:09 now I have to find what's using it 21:10:49 shit shit everything's breaking becaues there's no free space 21:13:31 oO 21:13:37 :< 21:13:41 how big is your HD? 21:13:45 feel my pain o ky? 21:13:52 HOLY FUCK 21:14:01 i'm writing an awful lot of data to disk per second 21:14:03 wtffffffff is doing that 21:14:06 alex89ru: 200gb 21:14:14 =/ how did you fill that 21:14:22 i didn't, I think some application is filling it by mistake 21:14:27 aw 21:15:04 * unrelatedguy clears every goddamn cache on the system 21:15:10 go away wretched full disk 21:15:28 os? 21:16:01 os x :\ 21:16:04 i think it might be mathematica 21:16:13 i set off a rather pointless, intensive computation before brbing 21:16:19 hehe 21:16:20 bet it's some temporary files from that 21:16:38 hmm, nope 21:16:40 oh dear. 21:16:43 i recently filled a 300er, and managed to break it right after. 21:16:51 i just want to _believe_ this isn't my fault 21:17:05 because...how the fuck can I fill 200GB? 21:17:06 I can't. 21:17:30 ;D last time I filled a HD, it was a40gb HD with 2 operating systems on it^^ 21:17:35 :D 21:17:39 feck, it looks like it's my fault 21:17:44 ok, what is taking so much disk space 21:17:55 anyone have a good way to search for disk-intensive folders on an HD? 21:17:57 :p 21:18:29 if there is, tell me too 21:18:36 been wanting something like that forever 21:19:03 i can't even use my normal irc client. 21:19:05 it craps out for some reason. 21:19:10 i guess it can't handle the ANTIDISK 21:19:25 ... well ok I take that back 21:19:26 it works now 21:20:13 * unrelatedguy measures ~ to narrow it down 21:21:28 Um, okay. 21:21:31 Size of ~: 116 GB 21:21:35 Methinks my problem be in there. 21:21:44 * ehird tries du(1) 21:22:37 du -h|grep [0-9]G 21:22:49 also, i need a new computer 21:24:01 bsmntbombdood: or, y'know, % du -h . >foobarbazquux 21:24:05 and then sort it 21:24:06 :P 21:24:22 you'd have to take of the h 21:24:23 bet I run out of disk space running du 21:24:32 bsmntbombdood: i'll just use awk or sth 21:24:40 and you can just pipe through sort... 21:27:09 awright! 21:27:10 20GB free 21:27:23 think that's enough for now, mmmhm 21:29:45 oh lawl 21:30:04 622M oed/Data/ 21:30:07 i can get rid of that 21:30:19 And running out of disk space tends to really screw a filesystem... 21:31:32 (fragmentation-wise) and since one doesn't have a defragger... Ouch... :-/ 21:32:33 Well, I had 1GB free at the worst. 21:32:38 But I don't know how much of that was -actually- usable. 21:32:43 Filesystems are weird. 21:33:35 READ ABOUT MY FILESYSTEM 21:34:11 what is it? 21:34:18 oh, the based on venti one? 21:34:22 I don't recall anything past, based on venti. 21:34:25 So, elaborate! 21:35:00 yeah 21:35:27 http://pastebin.ca/1323277 21:40:44 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:41:07 bsmntbombdood: so it's... venti 21:41:37 it's not _just_ venti 21:41:46 where's the diff 21:42:18 it uses venti as it's data store 21:43:09 well, not exactly venti, but the same concept 21:49:35 -!- jix_ has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 22:00:04 ehird, do you use azureus? 22:00:19 no, Transmission. 22:00:53 hm. i dont know how transmission does it, but i know azureus will create empty files that, as far as your file system is concerned, are many gigs in size 22:01:02 ah 22:01:11 so it reserves the total space for a download before its all done, so that it CAN all be done 22:01:15 no torrent downloads save for mathematica recently 22:01:39 hm. 22:03:17 i hate azureus 22:03:20 hate it 22:03:58 it uses ~1.5 gb of virtual memory 22:04:16 i know :( 22:04:17 its horrible 22:04:25 but transmission isnt free and this pains me 22:08:51 um 22:08:53 transmission is free 22:09:11 xtorrent isn't 22:09:13 but transmission is 22:09:14 open soucre too 22:09:25 http://www.transmissionbt.com/ 22:09:37 is transmission? 22:09:38 huh. 22:09:40 well then 22:11:22 -!- FireFly has quit (Nick collision from services.). 22:12:54 Food poisoning rulz lawl 22:13:09 lol 22:14:03 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:14:36 At 4AM I threw up substantially more than I'd eaten (by magic), then I drank a glass of water, then in two hours I threw up that. Water. Just water and stomach acid. It was really unpleasant. 22:15:12 AWESOME> 22:15:44 Yeah, its a cool thing, your body actually manages to produce more and more acid, just for you to throw up 22:16:34 When it's that thin it comes out your nose as well as your mouth. 22:16:37 And that hurts. 22:16:38 The wonderfull masochistic stomach... 22:16:54 GregorR: AWESOME 22:18:39 -!- FireFly has joined. 22:24:26 -!- X-Scale2 has joined. 22:29:33 -!- yoR has quit. 22:30:07 -!- alex89ru has quit ("Verlassend"). 22:30:46 GregorR: sounds like fun, yes 22:33:01 -!- X-Scale has quit (Nick collision from services.). 22:33:04 -!- X-Scale2 has changed nick to X-Scale. 22:33:38 -!- unrelatedguy has quit ("Lost terminal"). 22:34:15 -!- Metcalf has joined. 23:10:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("restarting"). 23:11:26 I'm looking for Keymaker's programs in Underload, does anyone know the new URL? 23:11:44 Used to be at http://koti.mbnet.fi/~yiap/programs/underload/ - not archived by Wayback :-/ 23:12:02 he moved his site 23:12:02 IIRC 23:12:19 Metcalf: http://yiap.nfshost.com/ 23:12:28 http://yiap.nfshost.com/esoteric.php?f=underload 23:13:38 oklopol: i have an idea for a way to make nopol just use < and >. 23:14:13 Thanks :-) 23:14:28 ehird: well shoot. 23:16:10 oklopol: basically 23:16:12 <: <. <::> <. <:> <::>>> <.:.:.>> 23:16:13 becomes 23:16:14 < <> < >< < <> <>> < >< < <>> < <> <>>>> < >< <> >< <> >< >> 23:16:15 : = <> 23:16:17 . = >< 23:16:19 yeah 23:16:20 i know 23:16:21 if you want one of those actually 23:16:24 guessed 23:16:26 evaluate an expr that evaluates to one of em. 23:16:30 but srsly. it's pretttttyyyyyy 23:17:33 oklopol: oklotalk should just use two characters 23:17:46 @ and . 23:17:49 @.@....@@@.@.@.@.@ 23:18:04 mmkay mmkay :) 23:18:08 :| 23:18:16 hmm 23:18:29 a J alike that automatically determines func implementation from the symbol you use. 23:18:38 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 23:18:45 I don't think it's possible to conditionally execute code in Underload 23:18:50 Metcalf: it's TC. 23:18:53 hmm? 23:18:56 It is possible to do that, just hard. 23:19:01 Metcalf: it's possible, and it's pretty easy. 23:19:06 okay,i t's probably easy 23:19:10 I was just erring on the side of caution 23:19:14 yeah 23:19:20 Metcalf: e.g. 99 bottles of beer 23:19:22 stops at 1 23:19:22 ofc 23:19:32 (:::::::):(:((^:()~((:)*~^)a~*^!!()~^))~*()~^^)~(^a(*~^)*a~*()~^!()~^)a~**^!!^S 23:19:37 there's no direct, intuitively clear way to do it. 23:19:38 stops when factorial calculated 23:19:39 etc 23:19:56 ehird, where is "bottles of beer" in that? 23:20:08 23:19 (:::::::):(:((^:()~((:)*~^)a~*^!!()~^))~*()~^^)~(^a(*~^)*a~*()~^!()~^)a~**^!!^S 23:20:09 23:19 stops when factorial calculated 23:20:10 reading helps 23:20:12 oh 23:20:14 misread 23:20:24 night anyway 23:20:33 night night 23:20:48 What about if I wanted to loop from 99 down to 1, but do something special when it got to 50. 23:21:15 on every step check if 50 and do something different if it is? 23:21:59 I just can't see how to check if it is 50, or how to skip some code if it is 23:22:17 you could subtract 50 and check if zero 23:23:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 23:23:46 How do I subtract 50? 23:24:44 decrement, check if either if zero and if is, return the nonzero one. 23:25:17 Metcalf: basically 23:25:20 you want your code in ()s 23:25:24 and you should : it before ^ing it 23:25:26 so that you have a copy 23:25:28 that you can ^ 23:25:36 it's quite rewrite-language-esque 23:25:45 you basically quine it 23:26:13 Metcalf: yeah what ehird said it's basically just lambda calculus with a stack, trivial. 23:26:45 Metcalf: but are you gonna continue, i kinda like programming underload in english :P 23:28:58 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:38:05 My first association to "carrier pigeons could be faster" was "unholy scramjet-equipped cyborg-pigeons, an abomination against nature" and not "normal pigeons carrying flash drives". 23:38:10 I think this is so funny because of the comma before an 23:54:00 -!- jix_ has joined. 2009-02-02: 00:05:50 -!- Metcalf has quit ("mov.i #1,1"). 00:14:20 -!- Slereah2 has changed nick to Slereah. 00:19:50 oklopol: fix le nopol bot 00:19:51 :3 00:33:06 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:34:33 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:34:45 note to self: infinite lang like context free, do it 00:36:07 im out for a bit guys. see ya. 00:36:11 -!- psygnisf_ has quit ("Leaving..."). 00:44:45 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 01:35:47 I got an email with the subject line "Lesbians and their lovely sheeps" 01:57:48 FUCKING HOT 02:04:44 -!- jix_ has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 03:18:36 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 03:21:54 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 03:22:40 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:34:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:37:54 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:38:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:45:00 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 03:45:51 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:46:55 -!- GregorR has joined. 03:51:32 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:25:06 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 04:32:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:49:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:29:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("Bus"). 05:31:01 -!- seveninchbread has changed nick to ghost. 05:31:20 -!- ghost has changed nick to CakeProphet. 05:35:27 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:40:05 -!- aantn has joined. 05:43:41 -!- aantn has quit (Client Quit). 06:00:57 -!- Nortaneous has joined. 06:06:33 http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1233554313/l50 06:28:00 -!- amca has joined. 06:44:19 -!- X-Scale has left (?). 07:59:49 http://xs435.xs.to/xs435/09056/dude_what215.gif 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:59 old 08:08:54 awesome 08:28:08 -!- appletizer has joined. 08:28:57 -!- Nortaneous has quit ("leaving"). 08:35:38 -!- Corun has joined. 08:45:16 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 08:45:59 -!- Corun has joined. 09:25:05 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 10:22:36 -!- Having_A_keystro has joined. 10:34:24 -!- fungot has joined. 10:35:23 fungot: You had disconnectized yourself again. 10:35:23 fizzie: why does ( t do?!? 10:36:47 fungot: You mean to ask why it happened? According to a server notice thing, that was a hardware problem on orwell.freenode.net. 10:36:48 fizzie: the ' cur' and ' cdr' gets the second field is called the closure of the variable `x', and similar 10:37:15 Incoherence. 10:37:44 -!- Having_A_keystro has left (?). 10:37:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:50:14 o 10:50:40 oko 10:58:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:15:14 http://www.wimp.com/goodtalk/ 11:15:17 this is me 11:15:21 in 30 years 11:15:31 (i hope) 11:17:48 so 11:17:50 awesome 11:18:08 * ais523 tries to figure out why the wireless network here is portscanning them 11:19:28 or something on 10.0.0.0/8, anyway 12:16:22 hi 12:16:29 hi 12:17:02 oklopol, needs flash it seems, so what is it? 12:17:21 is it worth booting the computer that does have flash and then enable X forwarding and so on? 12:19:40 definitely 12:25:46 oklopol, so who is it? Obama? Since it says "public speaking" and so on. 12:26:10 "me in 30 years" 12:26:15 doesn't sound very obama. 12:29:02 well found the *.flv file 12:29:05 but 61 MB?! 12:29:29 * ais523 tries to imagine oklopol as US president 12:29:31 * ais523 fails 12:29:33 it's quite long, the beginning is the most interesting part. 12:29:38 I really have no idea what that would be like... 12:29:39 oklopol, "no sound"? 12:29:49 definitely sound 12:30:02 if i was the president, i'd expoit it. 12:30:23 probably not if i'd worked to achieve it ofc. 12:30:23 Cannot find codec for audio format 0x6134706D. 12:30:28 oklopol, sorry can't watch it 12:31:35 oklopol, ^ 12:32:50 your loss 12:33:05 That's a strange fourcc code: 0x6134706D -> "a4pm", it's mp4a (mpeg-4 audio) backwards. 12:33:26 fizzie, it works like funge fingerprints!? 12:33:59 Well, it's usually the right way around, but yes, they use ASCII characters in those codec IDs. 12:34:17 fizzie, well that message was from mplayer 12:34:26 byte swap fail or what? 12:36:06 Dunno; the flv does play here with mplayer. 12:36:07 Opening audio decoder: [faad] AAC (MPEG2/4 Advanced Audio Coding) 12:36:07 AUDIO: 44100 Hz, 2 ch, s16le, 75.0 kbit/5.32% (ratio: 9376->176400) 12:36:07 Selected audio codec: [faad] afm: faad (FAAD AAC (MPEG-2/MPEG-4 Audio) decoder) 12:36:48 (Well, I don't have headphones or speakers, so I'm just guessing it actually does play the audio.) 12:39:44 hm 12:40:03 The backwardsness might be just my interpretation; it could be that the mp4a fourcc actually has the numeric value of 0x6134706D, if those things are little-endian by nature. 12:40:33 says faad is missing too 12:40:38 Requested audio codec family [faad] (afm=faad) not available. 12:41:02 well I'm on a binary distro atm, so I can't easily fix it, like I could on gentoo 12:41:15 (just change a useflag and recompile on gentoo) 12:58:23 "Due to many requests the paper submission deadline is postponed to 9 February 2009 (final date !!!)" Yet another confirmation of http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php?f=998 13:09:18 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:17:50 http://www.wimp.com/beafraid/ <<< conclusive evidence. i'm hitting the basement. 13:19:31 I'm not sure I'm catching this conclusive evidence with no sound. 13:20:21 That old guy with the beard does look rather credible, though. 13:21:19 yes, he's saying 2012 is the end of the world. according to multiple seers! :o 13:22:08 Well, if *multiple* seers say so... 13:22:39 the mayan calendar ends in 2012, at the end of the cycle 13:22:46 you know 13:22:49 Yes. 13:22:54 polarity changes and earth changes its course 13:22:55 Also this one guy has two monitors full of text; what's he saying? A title said "web-bot" at some point. 13:22:57 and hits jupiter 13:22:58 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell"). 13:23:02 and we grow extra hands 13:23:04 and you know 13:23:10 heh 13:23:14 it's some kinda prediction bot 13:23:26 that predicted the world would end in 2012 too 13:23:29 I'm not sure I see the link between extra hands and the end of the world, but it does remind me of a piece of music. 13:23:33 also it predicted the tsunami 13:23:37 however that's written 13:24:38 Namely, ftp://ftp.byterapers.com/pub/extra/modules-humorouscollection/mp3/enemy_and_seadog-monta_sormee.mp3 -- but the lyrics are in Finnish, so the audience is limited. 13:25:21 i'll convince myself of the apocalypse first, wait a mo. 13:25:28 Sure, no rush. 13:25:36 If it's 2012, there's a lot of time. 13:27:01 yeah i'll probably get my degree before that 13:27:13 so, umm. i'm done. 13:27:55 Did you get convinced? 13:28:01 10 minutes left. 13:28:14 i should really be reading, but goddamn wimp got me addicted 13:28:49 also these prediction things and all kinda conspiracy theories are so goddamn convincing i can't stop watching them 13:34:59 fizzie: the music isn't really my style 13:35:18 Yes, well, I'm not sure it's anyone's style. But it's about extra appendages. 13:35:35 well yes, that's always a good topic for a song. 13:36:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:38:48 interesting documentary btw, the web-bot thing is introduced twice. 13:38:57 "in case you walked in late..." 13:40:36 So, uh, how does it work? 13:40:59 umm. 13:41:08 seems it looks for keywords on the internet? 13:41:28 something about spider, aka agents, roaming the net 13:41:35 *spiders 13:41:53 If I were told to do a prediction-bot for the end of the world, I'd first start to look for some means of destroying the world, just to get some suitable training data for the predictor. 13:41:57 there were pictures of million of words with words like terrorism and new york in different colors 13:42:06 :D 13:42:28 Then I'd need a reasonably large population of worlds to destroy. 13:43:07 Well, I'm sure searching for "terrorism" works just as well. 13:43:35 anyway the point is the black hole in the center of our galaxy, the sun and the earth are lined up (?), and, you know, polarity of earth changes in hours, and everything goes boom 13:45:06 Uh, right. Well, I have to admit that two points (sun and earth) are quite often on the same line. 13:45:52 no no three. 13:45:57 The black hole, too? 13:46:08 the black hole too you know gravitrons and neutrons have a bbq party and you kno 13:46:09 w 13:46:15 boom 13:46:22 scary shit. i should go read my book now 13:46:27 finished the doc 13:46:30 not the song you linked 13:46:37 i couldn't 13:47:46 Astronomy answer book has a (probably frequently asked) question of "Can the Earth, the Sun, and the center of the Galaxy be on one line?" at http://www.astro.uu.nl/~strous/AA/en/antwoorden/melkwegstelsels.html 13:48:39 what the fuck do they know, mayans were much more accurate. 13:48:57 fizzie: I've never even considered that question before 13:48:58 Yeah, they probably haven't even counted on the polarity. 13:49:15 ais523: It is of vital importance; this is about the end of the world, after all. 13:49:36 ais523: yeah it seems 2012 is the *real* end of the world 13:49:50 i mean in what it was 2002 (?) even i wasn't convinced 13:50:02 but this is definitely for real 13:50:03 personally, I think that if there was a magnetic field polarity flip, we'd be in trouble no matter which way the earth-sun line was pointing at the time 13:50:14 also, the Mayans didn't even predict the end of the world in 2012 13:50:18 just the end of an era 13:50:31 IIRC, they predicted a mass extinction which wiped out most but not all of humankind 13:50:41 yeah but you know many after them have seen, independently, that there's also some you know extinction going on. 13:51:24 oh mass extinction, right, the documentary didn't actually say absolutely everyone would die 13:52:24 IIRC, the Mayans believed there had been a few mass extinctions of similar natures before 13:52:38 oh also, apparently everyone who doesn't survive turns into animals 13:52:44 -!- aantn has joined. 13:52:52 ais523: stop ruining this for me ;) 13:53:18 -!- aantn has quit (Client Quit). 13:55:53 * oklopol puts "buy dogfood for self" on calendar 14:04:11 Then you turn out to be a finicky cat, and absolutely refuse to eat it. 14:06:44 I'm having trouble finding a comprehensive end-of-the-world predictions table in Wikipedia. There's a lot of stuff around different pages, but I haven't noticed anyone collecting all that to a useful table. 14:07:15 try exit mundi! 14:07:21 hi ehird 14:07:32 exit mundi is great 14:16:02 although http://www.exitmundi.nl/singularity.htm is a rather one-sided view of the singularity 14:20:18 -!- appletizer has left (?). 14:40:49 so who wants to hear about my silly esolang idea 14:41:00 everyone in this channel, probably 14:41:21 basically, every function either returns an immediate value without looping or recursing, or recurses infinitely 14:41:26 the way you actually get real results 14:41:27 You do realize that if an actual reason was required, most of the Internet wouldn't exist? 14:41:38 is that it just stops calling functions when it "doesn't make a big enough difference" 14:41:43 the function to decide what that is is bindable at runtime 14:41:48 inspired by: http://www.contextfreeart.org/ 14:41:54 in that, you just code infinite pictures 14:42:01 and when they get smaller than a pixel, it just stops drawing that branch 14:42:13 ehird: ah, works much like the iterative method of solving equations, then 14:42:44 of course, it can mess up a lot if you change the threshold to always say "no, that's a small difference" 14:42:53 ...in that every function you call will return 0 14:43:22 how do you write the threshhold function itself? 14:43:34 if it's written in the same lang, execution could be interesting, to say the least 14:43:39 ais523: it runs the threshold function without any restrictions 14:43:44 boring 14:43:50 ais523: it would work without that too. 14:43:58 comparisons change {3,4} to {True,False} 14:44:05 which is definitely a major change 14:44:11 unless you set it not to be, but that's your fault. 14:44:47 * ehird sees "Hampton the Hampster - Hampsterdance the Album" on iTunes, weeps for humanity 14:44:54 I mean, how does it decide when the comparison function has stopped recursing? 14:45:05 if it uses the comparison function, that means it needs to recurse to decide whether to recurse or not 14:45:07 ais523: by calling the comparison function. 14:45:31 -!- jix has joined. 14:46:47 also 14:46:55 inaccurate computer floating point circuits come in handy 14:47:03 in that you can actually do (x = 1+(2/x)) and get a result 14:47:15 (because 2/x always gets you to 0 in finite time, and x+0 is obviously x) 14:47:51 what about 4195835.0/3145727.0? 14:48:16 is that a special floating point thingy? 14:48:22 not exactly 14:48:34 i'm dividing it repeatedly in a haskell console 14:48:36 let's see how long this takes 14:48:48 bah, I'm scripting this 14:48:50 it's a calculation that the pentium 1 got wrong 14:48:54 ah 14:48:54 heh 14:48:55 it returned 1.333 739 068 902 037 589 rather than 1.333 820 449 136 241 002 14:48:59 not a big difference, but big enough 14:49:16 Intel had huge trouble defending their reputation over that one 14:49:25 sort of like 850*77.1, but more serious and harder to remember 14:49:43 i kind of hate intel and x86. 14:49:54 whereby kind of I mean I really hate, but can't figure out why 14:50:21 (incidentally, that bug was due to a typo in a lookup table, pretty scary really as I would have hoped they'd be machine-generated...) 14:51:05 exit mundi 14:51:06 er 14:51:10 wrong copy paste 14:51:22 tbh, though, I've messed up an autogenerated lookup table before 14:51:36 I somehow managed to paste the first half of the table twice, caused chaos until I realised what had happened 15:05:25 * ais523 is very amused that the most commonly edited bits of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=INTERCAL are the hello worlds in non-INTERCAL languages 15:05:52 * ehird chops out the Python example because honestly 15:06:17 hmm... I'll buy that 15:06:42 proto: next to "Minor edit", there is a checkbox reading "Honestly, for god's sake" 15:06:49 it disables the edit summary field, and cannot be reverted 15:06:52 and does not appear in recent changes. 15:07:02 also, vandals cannot use it. 15:07:30 actually, there is one of those, but only admins can use it, and it's an URL parameter not a checkbox 15:07:35 really? 15:07:36 also, it only does reverts 15:07:41 um :P 15:07:42 and it shows up in page history, although not recent changes 15:07:47 everything shows up in page history 15:07:48 Rollback? 15:07:52 That 15:07:54 bot rollback, to be precise 15:07:55 's not admin-only, is it? 15:07:57 rollback shows up in recent changes 15:08:00 ah 15:08:05 Rollback is a separate flag, no? 15:08:09 or is bot rollback admin-only 15:08:09 on Wikipedia, yes 15:08:15 but bot rollback's admin-only IIRC 15:08:21 it sounds dangerous 15:08:22 or was last I looked, anyway 15:08:33 vandal botses reverting algos aren't very good... 15:08:39 and it is dangerous 15:08:39 I've used it on Esolang a bit to clean up spam 15:08:41 because it hides the edit you're reverting from recent changes too 15:08:47 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:09:57 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Interpreter 15:09:59 "Parrot - a virtual machine supporting some esoteric languages " 15:10:07 I'm not sure I see the relevance. 15:10:13 Who wants to add EsCo? :P 15:11:24 how did esco become such a running joke, anyway? 15:11:32 there are lots of other bad esolang interps out there... 15:11:45 because it's so _overblown_ 15:11:52 and the authors were rabid in adding it to the wiki 15:11:57 and re-adding it, and re-re-adding it, and... 15:12:06 * ais523 wonders if they spammed it to Wikipedia first, and got redirected to Esolang 15:12:52 wow, last commit 2 weeks ago 15:12:56 it's being developed... 15:13:19 and why not? 15:13:29 generally, things like that are abandoned posthaste 15:15:19 wow, a site with a flash homepage 15:15:25 i haven't seen one of them for forever 15:15:35 also, tiny 10px text 15:15:38 Wizards of the Coast had quite a few 15:15:43 although IIRC they fixed that recently 15:15:56 now, if you find a site with a Silverlight homepage, I'll be worried 15:16:02 (unless it's one of Microsoft's, that doesn't count) 15:17:10 "I'm looking for a syntax-highlighting IDE as I've been tasked with maintaining INTERCAL code and am having trouble not making mistakes." I wonder how often that sort of thing happens. 15:17:30 fizzie: link? 15:17:35 ehird: [[Talk:INTERCAL]] 15:17:35 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:INTERCAL 15:17:53 I guessed it was a troll, but tried to give a serious answer anyway 15:18:12 Was that [[link]] supposed to automagically turn into a real URL? If so, it didn't happen. 15:18:38 fizzie: I forgot the w: prefix 15:18:40 Well, even if it wasn't supposed to happen, it didn't. 15:18:43 According to a recent blog post, Apple discovered that Microsoft had planted a spy in their organisation, and deliberately leaked a copy of obsolete System 7 source code, machine-translated to INTERCAL, claiming it was the latest build of OS X 10.2. Bill Gates initially fell for the trick and seriously told his programmers to incorporate the INTERCAL code into Windows Vista. JIP | Talk 05:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC) 15:18:45 Due to INTERCAL's limited I/O capabilities, this seems unlikely. I can't imagine anyone writing an OS in INTERCAL-72, and neither C-INTERCAL or CLC-INTERCAL can do graphics as far as I know, so presumably this is a new secret flavour of INTERCAL? --ais523 09:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC) 15:18:49 Yes, it seems pretty clear that the blog was meant to be a joke. This is probably why blogs aren't considered reliable sources; I'd recommend not putting this information in the article. --ais523 12:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC) 15:18:53 ais523: when did you get a sense of humour? 15:18:55 post march 2007, evidently 15:19:14 ehird: no, I just think that AnMaster-style responses to stupid questions are much funnier than ehird-style responses 15:19:20 especially where INTERCAL is concerned 15:19:38 well, my responses aren't responses 15:19:41 they're pointers from elsewhere 15:19:53 plus, it wasn't a stupid question, it was a joke 15:20:06 well, I didn't want anyone to copy the information into the article 15:20:41 and some jokes are only funny if the other person tries not to get them 15:20:47 that particular blog post was not funny at all, really 15:21:16 that blog post was written by the guy who wrote that intercal tutorial 15:21:27 he didn't write it 15:21:27 white on black colour scheme, on blogspot, that's all i remember 15:21:36 he reached the point of trying to make a loop, and gave up, I think 15:21:45 well, he wrote some parts of it 15:22:07 ah, still there 15:22:11 * ais523 has the URL memorised... 15:22:42 Are you an INTERCAL guru? Please feel free to post the solution as a comment. (It will sure save me from figuring it out.) 15:22:44 I may do just that 15:22:48 i pledge to kill anyone who ever makes another foo.bar.bz domain pun 15:22:52 i cannot freaking remember them 15:23:02 http://divingintointercal.blogspot.com/ anyway 15:25:05 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Site_support 15:25:08 {{prod}} 15:25:41 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Velato 15:25:43 neat 15:25:54 http://www.rottytooth.com/velatotracks/print_h_5.mid 15:25:55 hello world 15:29:24 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:29:27 -!- jix has joined. 15:33:12 http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=836675 15:33:17 la la la woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo britain. 15:48:16 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:01:50 -!- ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating..."). 16:04:31 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:12:06 -!- ehird has joined. 16:12:30 grrr. need. ordered. directory. tree. 16:12:49 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 16:15:25 :| 16:16:01 ehird: ls -R? 16:16:08 no, ordered 16:16:13 as in, a regular unix directory 16:16:15 except 16:16:18 files inside are ordered 16:16:21 in the listing 16:16:49 ehird: you could use the init.d trick 16:16:53 although that's a ridiculous hack 16:17:02 yeah, it's awful 16:17:06 I don't want number cruft on my filenames 16:18:14 grumph 16:18:33 also: no, file create time doesn't count, because it's brittle 16:18:48 and you can't sort by it in a lot of UIs 16:25:42 let's see if I can't work out coadjute 16:26:05 rule :: String -> [String] -> ([Source] -> Target -> IO ()) -> [SingleDatum] -> Coadjute () 16:26:05 A rule for building targets individually. 16:26:08 thanks that is really helpful 16:35:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:44:51 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 16:46:30 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:49:33 one solution for ordered directory trees: 16:49:39 have it unordered, but with a manual index of files 16:49:40 as in 16:49:41 filename\nfilename 16:49:42 etc 16:52:10 ugly but works 16:53:05 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 16:57:26 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:01:04 Hmm. In a YYYY-MM-DD date, what are the hyphens? Real hyphens? En dashes? Em dashes? Avocados? 17:01:42 interesting 17:01:47 I've never seen them as anything but hyphens 17:01:53 that doesn't mean hyphens are right, though 17:02:09 well, - is often used as an endash 17:02:13 -- as an emdash 17:02:41 it may be a digit dash 17:02:44 or whatever it's called 17:02:46 figure dash 17:02:49 the one that's as wide as a 0 17:03:00 Interesting. 17:03:16 "The figure dash is used when a dash must be used within numbers, for example with telephone numbers: 867‒5309. " 17:03:23 Seems likely. 17:04:12 Caring about these things makes my life a lot more stressful :P 17:04:23 a lot more eso, though 17:04:36 Being correct is eso now? 17:05:19 Wonder if I can get Pandoc to put a hair space between emdashes. 17:05:26 being finicky correct beyond reason, yes 17:05:29 -!- jix has joined. 17:05:33 I'm such a stickler. 17:05:35 why do you think I want to distribute C-INTERCAL in PAX format? 17:06:24 I’d type using “smart quotes” (such a stupid name) and other such things — like I am in this sentence — on IRC all the time, if it weren’t so hard on the fingers. 17:08:53 http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/README.html#header-identifiers-in-html 17:08:58 Hmph, I'll have to postprocess pandoc output. 17:09:03 dogs--in-my-house should be dogs-in-my-house. 17:11:24 I wonder whether I should care about whether IE chokes and dies on my page. 17:11:26 Nah. 17:12:20 Oh bloody hell, HTML5 obligates dates to use -. 17:12:24 Ridiculous. 17:12:51 haven't they heard of microformats? 17:13:01 Yes, the teams overlap heavily. 17:13:05 But it's the element semantics. 17:13:56 I'm fine with obligation, I just dislike incorrect obligation :P 17:15:41 Hm 17:15:45 I think theyr emoved the date element 17:17:28 ehird: Either complain to Hixie and get it fixed or worry less about typography :) 17:17:34 Bu-bu-bu-bu I COULDN'T POSSIBLY 17:18:27 complain to Hixie, go on 17:18:45 yeah, I'm going to 17:18:58 ("complain to hixie" evaluates to "email the whatwg mailing list", though) 17:19:18 I don't think they'll -drop- support for the hyphen :-P 17:19:30 Also, -hyphens- as emphasis is very nice, I suggest you try it. 17:19:43 -Why use them for emphasis?- 17:19:50 -Why not use them to scare everyone?- 17:20:02 -My name is not Baron von Skippy.- 17:20:13 -But everyone loves the Baron.- 17:20:21 -I think he'll sue you if you keep that up.- 17:30:41 Okay, let's see... 17:31:05 The base size is 16px, the line height is 1.5, so the basic vertical measure is 16 x 1.5 = 24px 17:35:06 ais523: ah 17:35:09 you're meant to do 17:35:22 17:50:37 lolxml 17:51:38 that works 17:52:07 17:52:19 the hyphens in the datetime element are so that it can be parsed easily, ASCII's good for that 17:54:17 comex: it's not xml 17:54:24 it's html5 17:54:40 SGML and XML should stop looking so similar to each other 17:54:48 HTML5 isn't SGML 17:54:50 incidentally, is HTML5 based on SGML? Or does it have its own parser? 17:54:53 snap 17:54:57 own parsing rules, yes 18:04:25 Shit, I have some typographical calculations slightly out of line and it's messing up the page. 18:05:49 ah, it's in the headers 18:05:59 margin-top: 0.857em; 18:06:00 margin-bottom: 2.57em; 18:06:02 bet it's these 18:06:16 -!- ais523 has quit ("before I get snowed in completely"). 18:06:19 yep, it is 18:19:09 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:26:26 -!- Leonidas has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 18:26:52 -!- Leonidas has joined. 18:29:54 [Global Notice] Hi all, It would appear one of our client servers just dropped off the face of the planet. We're looking into the issue and should hopefully have it back soon. Affected users just over 2,000. Apologies for the inconvenience and have a good day. 18:29:58 Freenode are so reliable. 18:30:13 Maybe a tiny black hole struck them. 18:31:06 Hey, it's not my fault, I didn't even work on the LHC yet! 18:34:22 -!- alex89ru has joined. 18:48:06 http://simple-pc-help.com/support/runtime_autogenerated%20bull-honky.html 18:48:25 I've seen autogenerated crap on the internet but that takes the cake 18:50:19 note the comments section 18:50:28 hahahaaahah 18:50:36 also go to the homepage, where there are suspiciously bayes-like news stories 18:51:03 http://simple-pc-help.com/support/runtime_autogenerated%20erectile-disfunction.html 18:51:05 well, more like scraped from other sites 18:51:18 ah wait 18:51:19 http://simple-pc-help.com/support/runtime_erectile-disfunction.html 18:51:34 How to Repair Error Code Erectile Disfunction 18:52:02 er, I can't spell 18:52:04 LOL 18:52:06 thanks bro!!! finally this stupid error Erectile Dysfunction Stopped popping UP 18:53:24 also 18:53:27 http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:IZWftMwjmOUJ:answers.yahoo.com/question/index%3Fqid%3D20081016232027AAr01Oc+simple-pc-help.com&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=firefox-a 18:53:56 I don't know about the website but I use RegCure and it's very good and hasn't broken our computer. Our computer is much quicker and we run RegCure once a week. 18:58:23 I'm going to run it 18:58:30 I love virtualbox snapshots... 18:59:24 haskell is so pretty. 19:00:10 I should learn it 19:00:17 http://simple-pc-help.com/support/runtime_Windows.html 19:00:20 Much better 19:00:28 "Do You Have Problems with Windows?" 19:01:14 You don't have permission to access /support/runtime_.html on this server. 19:01:38 I tried that :p 19:01:45 you can do other html though 19:02:27 huh. 19:02:30 it doesn't actually work 19:02:52 I attempted clicking all the links on IE, no download boxes 19:03:12 19:03 what type should I use for a date? 19:03:12 19:03 ehird: NiceRestaurant 19:03:13 19:03 protection 19:03:19 #haskell: Oh Ho Ho That Obvious Joke Is So Amusing. 19:04:16 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:05:50 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 19:07:07 Do You Have Problems with > 19:07:07 Problem: Runtime Error >critical sign of an unstable system that is typically caused by improper maintenance of the computer. 19:07:20 Heh, injecting HTML comments <3 19:22:22 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 19:22:26 -!- X-Scale has joined. 19:24:06 ehird: your language sounds an awful lot like ef. 19:24:14 o rly? 19:26:08 ehird: in that you can actually do (x = 1+(2/x)) and get a result <<< what result would it be? 19:26:45 2 19:26:55 (you don't always get such a nice answer, but that's how it is with floating point.) 19:36:03 blah. 19:36:13 trying to find in the logs when i was teaching it to you 19:36:20 you came up with that exact same example 19:36:37 -!- olsner has joined. 19:38:48 blah, i'd have to import re, and that's kinda cheating. 19:39:39 anyway, the point is you'd think you'd see the similarity 19:39:43 o 19:39:44 o 19:40:45 but yeah ef is not exatly the same, x=1+2/x doesn't set x to 2, but the idea is the same 19:40:48 I think I saw ef in the logs when I thought of it 19:40:53 so it's a derivation of that idea 19:40:56 but not identical 19:42:36 so umm why does x=1+2/x set x to 2? setting variables is iterated until the process converges? 19:42:50 oklopol: well, that's just haskell-style 19:42:55 ie. x=x is a black hole 19:43:19 eventually you get to x+0 19:43:20 == x 19:43:21 and it stops 19:45:47 so the convergence stuff revolves around "=", and works by solving the equations 19:46:18 by taking the fixed-point, so not perfectly, but that's the way to get fixed-points? 19:46:43 -!- Corun has joined. 19:47:00 i mean ef does it by taking the fixed-point of everything, which makes much less sense, so they would indeed be way different. 19:47:03 ef is so cool <3 19:48:55 how come you ain't an answer mister ehird :o 19:49:11 back 19:49:12 er 19:49:14 I didn't go 19:49:17 but I didn't read eso 19:49:18 anyway 19:49:20 oklopol> so the convergence stuff revolves around "=", and works by solving the equations 19:49:22 this isn't actual syntax 19:49:26 this is just hypothetically 19:50:16 well my point is, do you do fixed-point stuff by setting up equations that are solved by taking the fixed-point? 19:50:29 or are there other interesting things you may do 19:50:51 oklopol: well, basically you can't recurse or anything in any other way than using fix on a value 19:50:55 (you can't do fact = fix \me -> ...) 19:50:57 just 19:51:04 fact = \n -> fix (\result -> ...) 19:51:16 so you basically have to work out htf to get that working. 19:51:22 and 19:51:33 it stops the infinite loop when the expression Wouldn't Change Enough (TM) 19:53:40 hmmhmm. 19:54:00 now that does sound exactly like ef again 19:54:46 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 19:54:52 well. 19:55:05 gotta go read my book, kinda slept and idled all day 19:55:08 ~> 19:55:11 bye 19:55:12 :P 19:56:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:00:55 -!- Corun has joined. 20:28:27 -!- alex89ru has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:02:59 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:20:12 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 21:30:11 BITCHES, TALK 21:37:46 no 21:39:15 :( 21:51:24 -!- comex has changed nick to biden. 22:10:45 -!- biden has changed nick to comex. 22:30:24 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 22:45:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:51:51 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 22:55:21 -!- amca has joined. 22:59:41 o 22:59:41 o 22:59:41 o 22:59:56 bitch ack 23:02:26 hi oklopol 23:02:53 hello 23:13:54 -!- enoksrd has joined. 23:14:07 -!- whoppix has joined. 23:15:13 hi. 23:15:18 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:15:31 hmm, our topic still isn't descriptive 23:15:49 -!- ehird has set topic: Esoteric programming languages. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page.. 23:16:16 -!- enoksrd has left (?). 23:18:22 i think oklopol likes his topic links to be clickable. 23:19:56 oerjan: i don't use an irc client from the 50's. 23:20:15 yeah those are clickable. 23:20:28 oklopol: 2050s? 23:20:40 they are? 23:20:55 oerjan: yes. 23:20:56 i guess they might be. 23:21:06 hi whoppix 23:21:14 Hello ehird. 23:21:24 maybe i should start making URLs ending in . to irritate people, then. 23:21:30 whoppix: what brings you here? 23:21:33 oh, you're in #haskell. 23:21:37 must have been when I mentioned this place 23:21:42 hi. 23:21:54 ehird, someone mentioned the channel name, and I have to admit, I'm a rather curios kind of person. :) 23:22:08 I think you could call all of us "curious" :-P 23:22:36 I suppose all programmers need to be, at some level. 23:22:47 So, this is a channel about esolangs. You might have heard of some: Brainfuck, INTERCAL, Unlambda, Underload, Thue, ... 23:23:23 yes, I've once written a small brainfuck interpreter in perl, and had a look at some other esoteric languages. 23:23:33 :) 23:24:04 Never heard about either of the last ones, you mentioned, though. 23:24:35 ^ul ((Welcome to underload! )S:^):^ 23:24:35 Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to under ...too much output! 23:24:45 whoppix: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload 23:24:48 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Thue 23:25:05 heh. 23:25:11 Looking at Unlambda right now. 23:25:41 whoppix: fungot here's written in Befunge-98, and interprets Brainfuck and Underload: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 23:25:41 ehird: what are you trying to do?' 23:25:49 and babbles when you mention their name. fungot! 23:25:50 ehird: no one said the jobs had to be a patchwork fnord of features 23:25:55 ^style 23:25:55 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 23:26:10 ehird, ah. 23:26:23 Befunge is kinda silly. 23:26:34 Very. :) 23:26:41 Well, I guess thats an inertial property of most esoteric languages. 23:27:20 befunge is actually very serious 23:27:43 befunge-98, yes 23:27:47 befunge-93, not really. 23:28:51 I wonder if its easy to parallize befunge code. 23:29:03 Befunge-98, yes. 23:29:08 It has a library for multiple instruction pointers. 23:29:11 You just fork them off. 23:29:20 Befunge-93, not really 23:29:24 Ah. 23:29:27 oklopol: :D 23:29:46 welll it was kinda important don't you think 23:32:16 ehird: multiple IPs are even in the core, no library needed 23:32:21 oh, OK 23:32:39 IPs? 23:32:42 but running them truly parallel isn't in the core 23:32:48 whoppix: instruction pointers 23:32:49 whoppix: instruction pointers 23:32:51 ah. 23:32:51 snap 23:33:42 I don't know if any extension yet even has parallel execution 23:33:58 AnMaster was working on something related but I don't know if he finished anything 23:36:02 I suppose if it should be usefull, you'd need stuff like mutexes and/or semaphores 23:38:37 :) 23:38:49 or STM :D 23:39:27 Asztal: STM is awesome, even though I haven't used it. 23:39:30 GROUPTHINK AHOY! 23:42:02 actually STM sucks 23:42:06 WE ARE THE BORG 23:42:11 (why? cause it's too slow) 23:42:17 retrying transactions might prove a little more difficult than in a pure language like haskell... maybe TRDS could help! 23:42:24 (that's why nobody is using it) 23:42:25 speed is irrelevant most of the time, lament :P 23:42:29 also, haskellites use it. 23:42:33 ehird: no, it's not 23:42:41 and haskellites use it obviously 23:42:43 it's by SPJ 23:42:57 SPJ can fart into a source file and put it on Hackage and people will use it 23:43:04 is this another lament Haskell Sucks And I Hate It rant 23:43:15 do you funroll all your loops in befunge? 23:43:50 lament, wikipedia tells me it could in future be hardware-supported 23:44:28 I suppose that would negate the speed deficit 23:44:45 that sounds quite unlikely in mainstream hardware 23:45:35 whoppix: yes. Just like strong AI will be in the future hardware-supported 23:45:56 AI? 23:46:01 ... artificial intelligence ... 23:46:50 If thats what he means by AI, I can't make sense of that sentence. 23:46:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_AI 23:48:04 ah. Well, wonders might happen, parallelization is hard as-is. 23:48:49 * whoppix wanders off. 23:48:58 I wish everyone a pleasant localtime. 23:49:06 GMT/UTC :-) 23:49:08 bye 23:49:21 -!- whoppix has quit ("Verlassend"). 2009-02-03: 00:08:35 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 01:33:31 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:56:10 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:38:59 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 03:36:50 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:49:10 -!- ab5tract has joined. 04:56:21 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 04:56:54 -!- ab5tract has quit. 05:27:15 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 06:31:41 -!- comex has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:31:59 -!- comex has joined. 06:37:30 -!- jix has joined. 06:41:35 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit). 07:52:40 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Client Quit). 07:53:13 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 07:59:18 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:04:57 AnMaster was working on something related but I don't know if he finished anything <-- mostly finished in efunge 08:05:04 not complete yet no 08:05:39 I suppose if it should be usefull, you'd need stuff like mutexes and/or semaphores <-- books, which you gain exclusive access to from the library 08:05:40 ;P 09:09:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:13:10 hi oerjan 09:13:21 morn morn 09:13:35 gah, can't talk about IWC since it isn't out yet 09:13:39 what to do now 09:13:39 :/ 09:13:53 BWAHAHAHA 09:14:13 oerjan, actually I will be out of town when it is released 09:14:30 um in just 1 hour? 09:15:04 oerjan, ? I'm leaving in about 20 minutes and will then be back around 16:30 or so I suspect 09:15:08 maybe a bit earlier 09:15:15 ah 09:45:10 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:50:02 -!- X-Scale has left (?). 10:45:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:45:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:49:11 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:49:11 -!- lament has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:49:35 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 10:49:35 -!- lament has joined. 11:38:14 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell"). 11:42:08 -!- Slereah has joined. 11:54:09 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:14:49 -!- jix has joined. 12:27:37 -!- MizardX has quit (Nick collision from services.). 12:27:39 -!- MizardX- has joined. 12:27:41 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 12:45:13 -!- nopolie has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:41:29 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 13:42:51 back 13:42:55 and read IWC ;P 13:43:40 um anyone know what the endianness is of floating point? Same as system endianness for integers or fixed? Assuming IEEE 754 that is. 13:44:33 (basically I'm wondering what would happen if I write out a binary float or double to a file and load it on a system with different endianness 13:44:34 ) 13:55:22 -!- Hiato has joined. 13:55:29 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 13:56:39 AnMaster: uh, system defined. 13:58:00 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 13:58:11 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:58:13 ehird, oh right -_- 13:58:48 But with the added extra confusion factor which comes from the fact that on a particular system, integers can be little-endian while floats are big-endian. 13:59:01 (Off to a lecture-thing right now.) 14:03:23 -!- jix has joined. 14:11:51 heh 14:33:39 -!- Hiato has joined. 14:37:04 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:39:31 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 14:40:19 -!- Hiato has joined. 14:40:26 -!- oktabot has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:40:39 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 14:48:38 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:50:14 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:59:17 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:02:11 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:03:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:06:30 -!- comex has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating..."). 15:06:44 -!- comex has joined. 15:07:46 -!- Leonidas has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:08:48 -!- Leonidas has joined. 16:17:28 -!- oklopol has joined. 16:24:55 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 17:10:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:14:17 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:46:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:11:14 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:28:11 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 18:34:43 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:43:17 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 19:19:17 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 19:28:11 -!- alex89ru has joined. 19:28:12 hi 19:28:41 hi 19:28:45 new here? 19:30:16 he's been here a couple days 19:30:50 hi ais523 19:31:03 ais523: #ESO, plz 19:32:30 -!- jix has joined. 19:36:18 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:36:52 -!- Corun has joined. 19:40:25 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:53:23 -!- Corun has joined. 20:00:11 http://www.imaginaryrobots.net/projects/funge/code/funged.3f 20:00:26 whose is that? 20:00:32 also, .3f = trefunge? 20:01:16 yep 20:01:17 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:01:19 and it's a guy's. 20:01:22 the guy who owns that site 20:01:54 wow, trefunge is so much harder to read than befunge 20:01:59 because of layer transitions 20:02:33 next question: what does it do? 20:02:38 edits trefunge code 20:02:47 a trefunge editor, written in trefunge 20:02:50 yep 20:03:21 you just need a 3d terminal? 20:03:56 i think it displays side by side or sth 20:07:35 -!- ais523 has quit. 20:08:53 PiFunge handprint: 32986AFB 20:08:57 :p 20:10:07 -!- Zetro_ has joined. 20:11:26 hi Zetro_ 20:11:29 you new? 20:11:30 :) 20:12:31 -!- Zetro_ has changed nick to Zetro. 20:16:08 new... hm.. have been here before :) 20:16:33 * ehird *grep* 20:16:40 After 2008-10-30 then :) 20:23:45 -!- NorthStar has joined. 20:33:15 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 20:42:54 -!- Zetro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:46:34 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:51:59 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:57:45 -!- Asztal_ has joined. 21:09:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:14:38 -!- Asztal has quit ("leaving"). 21:15:35 -!- Asztal has joined. 21:26:19 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:32:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:39:56 -!- Asztal_ has quit ("leaving"). 21:41:01 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:45:48 -!- NorthStar has left (?). 21:48:32 -!- alex89ru has quit ("Verlassend"). 22:05:12 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:09:08 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 22:21:27 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:44:25 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 22:48:07 -!- Corun has joined. 22:54:55 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 23:14:53 -!- whoppix has joined. 23:17:27 Good evening, #esoteric. 23:18:26 hi there 23:21:16 hi 23:26:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 2009-02-04: 00:25:30 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:27:43 -!- FireFly has quit ("Much later"). 00:29:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("bye"). 01:02:32 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 01:14:09 -!- amca has joined. 02:04:45 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:27:09 -!- MizardX- has joined. 03:27:11 -!- MizardX has quit (Nick collision from services.). 03:27:13 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 03:48:02 -!- Slereah has joined. 04:01:54 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:44:50 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:16:50 * oerjan groans at xkcd 05:30:49 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:37:57 -!- Asztal has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:38:01 -!- Asztal has joined. 06:23:35 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 06:32:02 -!- FireFly has joined. 06:53:02 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:00:41 -!- ski__ has joined. 07:23:39 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 07:44:10 -!- impomatic has joined. 07:57:08 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:16:18 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 08:16:49 -!- Judofyr has joined. 08:21:24 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 08:36:45 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:10:24 -!- jix has joined. 10:07:32 I've implemented an interpreter for Underload in Redcode, http://tr.im/eil7 10:25:52 -!- ski__ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:25:55 -!- ski__ has joined. 10:43:08 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell"). 11:19:38 -!- MizardX has quit (Nick collision from services.). 11:19:40 -!- MizardX- has joined. 11:19:42 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 11:22:27 impomatic, what would be the default policy for an underload interpreter if the execution pointer encounters any letter that is not valid underload? 11:24:19 ^ul (Our bots tend to just complain, like this:)S@ 11:24:20 Our bots tend to just complain, like this: ...bad insn! 11:25:26 ah. 11:26:23 That underload-in-brainfuck interpreter mostly ignores invalid input, I think. 11:27:15 fizzie, I can't make sense of the "^ul" at the beginning, the doc tells me that ^ removes the first element from the stack and executes it, but at the beginning, there are no elements at the stack? 11:27:36 It's just the bot-command to evaluate underload. 11:27:37 ^help 11:27:37 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 11:27:46 ah, thats what I thought. 11:28:05 ^ul ^ 11:28:05 ...out of stack! 11:28:12 :) 11:28:33 That language looks fun, I think ill write a perl interpreter for it. 12:05:56 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 12:07:53 whoppix: fizzie: the program terminates when it reaches the invalid input 12:08:14 hm, no form of comments either? 12:08:34 And it expects the program to be valid. It will do a swap on an empty stack 12:09:05 (comment)! 12:10:20 I'm looking for another language to implement 12:10:30 Maybe Aura 12:12:25 -!- aantn_ has joined. 12:12:31 -!- aantn_ has quit (Client Quit). 12:16:55 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:19:17 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:19:28 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 13:01:20 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:24:13 -!- Mony has joined. 13:26:07 plop 13:29:46 -!- alex89ru has joined. 13:45:49 -!- Hiato has joined. 14:33:19 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:34:42 -!- Hiato1 has joined. 14:47:36 -!- Hiato1 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:48:52 -!- Hiato has joined. 14:52:07 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 16:15:11 -!- alex89ru has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:21:06 * ehird embarks on Bloody Crazy Project 16:23:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:27:38 hi oerjan 16:27:45 i've started a Bloody Crazy Projec. 16:27:45 t 16:27:51 BWAHAHAHAHAHA 16:27:54 i mean, hi 16:28:43 is this a Bloody Crazy Project Language (BCPL)? 16:29:19 afk 16:31:45 oerjan: nope 16:42:44 Geback 16:43:47 oerjan: it's an instance of an existing Bloody Crazy Project Idea, but with a twist. 16:44:26 ah, a TCP 16:44:31 oerjan: wut 16:44:32 oh 16:44:35 Twisted Crazy Project 16:45:06 hooray for inventing new meanings to commonly known idioms! :) 16:45:56 oerjan: no guesses, ey/ 16:45:57 *? 16:46:16 certainly not 16:46:40 * oerjan finds the idea of searching infinite spaces appalling 16:47:27 the existing Bloody Crazy Project Idea: write an OS in Haskell. the Twist: don't write the hooks GHC runtime uses in C or asm, write as much as possible in Haskell. no C allowed, maybe a smidgen of asm for driver stuff that you really can't do outside of asm (e.g. in C you have to use inline asm :-P) 16:49:18 -!- Slereah has joined. 16:49:27 clearly an Impossible Project 16:49:44 -> TCP/IP 16:49:56 FireFly: i think that was his joke 16:49:56 :D 16:49:57 * oerjan swats FireFly -----### 16:50:06 :< 16:50:18 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:50:26 -!- ktne has joined. 16:50:29 hello 16:50:41 hi there 16:50:42 anyone here knows how static function closures are implemented? 16:51:03 a reference from an inner function to a local variable in the outer function 16:51:22 umm, how are they not? :-) 16:51:32 i mean, what's the issue? 16:51:41 my question is how the function frame is allocated 16:51:53 because it seems to me that you can't allocate it on the stack 16:52:09 because on the stack it would be automatically destroyed when you return from the outer function 16:52:13 indeed, you need a pointer in the inner function frame to the outer one 16:52:14 sure 16:52:18 they have to go onto the heap 16:52:22 and be garbage collected 16:52:25 right 16:52:42 unless the variable is immutable, then you can just copy 16:52:46 so if the language is static, then you can determine whenever it should go on the stack or on the heap 16:52:57 and if the language is dynamic then it has to go on the heap always? 16:53:56 depends how dynamic it is? 16:54:04 hmm 16:54:06 ktne: 16:54:13 you can never make it go on the stack if it outlives its parent 16:54:20 right 16:54:28 foo = lambda(x){ lambda(y){ return x += y } } 16:54:32 but sounds very inefficient 16:54:37 you really don't have a choice there, it goes on the heap 16:54:40 ktne: not very 16:54:41 if it's so dynamic you cannot prove anything about function environments, then i guess so... 16:54:43 but it is a penalty, yes 16:54:52 ehird: wouldn't the heap explode if you do recursion? 16:55:00 garbage collection, yo 16:55:09 yes but that would be quite heavy 16:55:12 your goal of c speed is misguided, however. Yes, all these nice features come at a cost. Programmer time > cpu time 16:55:13 quite a lot of GC 16:55:18 get an efficient GC 16:55:24 like, as I mentioned last time, cheney on the mta 16:55:34 cheney on the mta? 16:55:42 ah 16:56:09 cheney on the mta solves both tail recursion, gc and continuations efficiently 16:56:27 in that it piles up memory, then just jumps off a cliff semi-efficiently to clean it all out every now and then 16:56:30 is it fully described on the paper http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/CheneyMTA.html ? 16:56:47 yep, for a practical implementation see Chicken Scheme 16:56:52 thanks 16:56:54 @ http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/ 16:56:59 i hope the source is readable :) 16:57:05 np :) 16:57:07 it's written in scheme 16:57:11 and compiles to C 16:57:15 so, if you know scheme and C :-P 16:57:28 should be comprehensible regardless of scheme knowledge to a degree though 16:57:51 hmm, does it use any host scheme-specific functionality? 16:57:59 like the host continuation or so? 16:58:09 or it's implemented from scratch on top of the host scheme? 16:58:22 Uh, I think it depends on Chicken... 16:58:30 I mean 16:58:31 the compiler 16:58:37 i see 16:58:37 the C code only depends on the chicken runtime library, written in C 16:58:46 i.e., the compiled code has no scheme left 16:58:49 that is ok then 16:58:52 just the compiled code, and the C/Asm chicken runtime lib 16:59:12 but the compiler itself, is written in Scheme + Chicken's extensions 16:59:19 iirc 16:59:21 while since I used it 17:00:07 ok, thanks for the help :) 17:00:21 np :) 17:01:43 ktne: i'm working on a "very high level language does non-regular-desktop-app stuff project too" 17:01:48 [which I just told oerjan about] 17:02:03 i think I can get by without making my own implementation, though 17:22:28 but if you are not the one to implement it, then who will? :) 17:23:14 ktne: I'm using an existing implementation 17:23:18 and bending it to my evil bidding. 17:23:23 ah 17:23:26 (trying to write an OS) 17:23:31 what are you using as base implementation? 17:23:56 Well, I think you're tired of hearing from last time... but I'm attempting to write it in Haskell :-) With the minimum amount of asm stubs for e.g. the grub header... 17:24:12 i see 17:24:20 There are Haskell OSes already, but they use quite a bit of C/asm to bootstrap the implementation; I think I can do it within the constraints of Haskell without stepping too far out 17:24:32 i never heard of an OS written in haskell before :) 17:24:53 there's three: House, Kinetic and hOp 17:24:56 none of which are very active 17:25:03 http://programatica.cs.pdx.edu/House/ 17:25:09 http://intoverflow.wordpress.com/kinetic/ 17:25:26 -!- impomatic has quit ("infinite loops @ http://tr.im/33xe :-)"). 17:25:28 [no link to hop, it's dead, House is a descendent of it] 17:26:07 ktne: each do a different "evil" - 17:26:18 hOp and House fork the GHC compiler to not depend on a runtime system 17:26:27 kinetic links in stub functions that the GHC runtime system uses written in C & asm 17:26:37 -!- alex89ru has joined. 17:26:39 hi 17:26:44 I'm going to try to: link in stub functions that the GHC rts uses ... written in _haskell_, as much as possible, with asm bits 17:26:50 alex89ru: hi, I'm discussing my crazy project. 17:27:05 but why do that? 17:27:08 is there a reason? 17:27:14 oO hi ehird 17:27:17 you want to avoid linking C? 17:27:39 ktne: sure -- to write an OS that has all the advantages of being written in haskell, without having to "fall back" on C 17:27:44 i.e., having it as standalone as possible 17:27:51 i see now 17:27:51 practical purpose, well, no :) 17:27:55 :) 17:29:27 the problem is, of course, that the functions have to depend only on the runtime system functions that don't cause a circular dependency. 17:29:41 and I have to get them assigned to the right symbols in the object code. 17:31:43 is that even possible? 17:31:56 probably not, has that ever stopped this channel? 17:32:06 :) 17:32:13 :D 17:37:33 hmm... 17:37:46 what's needed is inline asm in haskell. then, technically, it'd be 100% haskell ;-D 17:37:49 *:-D 17:39:05 -!- Metcalf has joined. 17:40:32 -!- Metcalf has quit (Client Quit). 17:43:51 wow? OS in haskell? 17:43:53 :D 17:44:14 ehird, hm I suspect you would much more asm than you would need if the OS was in C 17:44:33 the GHC runtime is heavy, yes 17:44:48 the basic idea is that you write just enough of the functions it uses to make it work 17:44:59 the extension to that idea is to write as much as possible of those in haskell itself 17:45:06 (that's the Really Hard part) 17:45:14 AnMaster: but the grub stuff is still the same 17:45:20 you just call the main function as usual 17:45:30 (as, of course, ghc compiles to binaries that you can actually run...) 17:47:19 ehird, I mean, in C you could do something like *(memory_mapped_registers + 0x21) = 'a'; 17:47:22 -!- impomatic has joined. 17:47:29 somehow I doubt it would be as easy in haskell 17:47:44 probably would involve at least a monad, and some ASM 17:47:55 AnMaster: your program is in the IO monad, of course 17:47:59 right 17:48:05 what about libc function deps? 17:48:14 does compiled haskell program use stuff like malloc()? 17:48:17 but yes, you would need some ASM to import via the FFI for memory access and things like ports 17:48:26 AnMaster: yep. as I said: 17:48:26 17:44 the GHC runtime is heavy, yes 17:48:27 17:45 the basic idea is that you write just enough of the functions it uses to make it work 17:48:30 ah 17:48:30 17:45 the extension to that idea is to write as much as possible of those in haskell itself 17:48:37 it's been done, but with them in C/asm 17:48:41 so you implement malloc() for the kernel in C? 17:48:43 the idea is basically to minimize that 17:48:54 AnMaster: yeah 17:48:56 well 17:49:05 because basically malloc() would mean the whole memory mangement ends up in C then 17:49:07 you MIGHT be able to do that in haskell, if you're very very carefully only to use strict, unboxed values 17:49:27 ghc needs a -ffreestanding then ;P 17:49:37 or -ffree-standing or whatever it is 17:49:43 AnMaster: i don't think it's possible to do haskell completely freestanding 17:49:51 it's too high level 17:50:05 well you would have to restrict some features, like you do a C++ kernel 17:50:24 AnMaster: you'd be writing in a fiddly dialect of a painful subset of C 17:50:37 (with a nazi type checker) 17:52:08 Nobody said it'd be easy :-) 17:52:26 but a type-safe operating system is pretty awesome. 17:52:27 basically you use some options to tell g++ that you want free-standing (except there is no -ffree-standing for C++, so it is like -fno-builtins -fno-stdlib or something) and then some magical routines like __cxx_abstract________whatever___ 17:52:42 iirc, I read about it on osdev 17:52:52 ehird, what about BitCC then? 17:53:07 I prefer Haskell >:) 17:53:24 well yeah but then you are in this channel too 17:53:31 haskell is pretty esoteric 17:53:54 also, so I don't get this in 5 years when it finally runs ghc: Yo dawg, I heard you like Haskell so I put a GHC in yo GHC so you can typecheck while you typecheck 17:54:31 wha? 17:54:37 It's a meme. 17:54:44 EMEME 17:54:45 :D 17:54:55 that is a palindrome too 17:55:04 unlike EMEM 17:55:13 thanks for that 17:55:28 thanks for what? 17:56:00 Hmmm... there's probably more Haskell on reddit than any other language! 17:57:10 impomatic: Indeed, it's quite popular over there. Was even more so in 2007 - early 2008 before the enterprisey folks arrived. 17:58:01 ehird, prediction: in a few years (maybe 5 or so) reddit will be no better than slashdot 17:58:17 what if the inner function makes a by-value reference to the variable in the other function? 17:58:28 /r/programming's quality of discourse is probably worse than slashdot's, AnMaster. 17:58:31 Still beats digg. 17:58:32 other prediction: you will have gone to some other site, maybe writtit 17:58:47 would that be an acceptable compromise? that would not require heap allocation, just normal stack 17:58:52 I'm going back to usenet. Kids, lawn, damn, get off thereof. 17:58:55 ktne: that kind of defeats the point. 17:59:00 you can't mutate 17:59:01 (I always read reddit as "readit") 17:59:12 it's impure from a conceptual standpoint and not useful practically 17:59:17 AnMaster: that's where the name comes from. 17:59:21 ah 17:59:27 it's past-tense read, though 17:59:29 thus the spelling 17:59:37 ah right 17:59:39 true 17:59:43 ehird: about about defining using a special keyword? 17:59:58 i mean, defining all local variables to be allocated on stack 18:00:03 ktne: congratulations, you're a PHP developer now 18:00:06 ktne: that's what i said earlier about immutable values. iirc ocaml uses that. 18:00:09 sorry 18:00:10 i meant 18:00:11 (that's what they did for their PHP6 closure implementation, it's rather awful) 18:00:16 ehird, by the way, wouldn't it be interesting to analyse how much of irc is in present, future and past tense, and make some shiny graph? 18:00:20 oerjan: well yeah, the problem goes away with mutable values 18:00:22 AnMaster: maybe. 18:00:25 say this channel, year by year 18:00:27 i mean, mark local variables to be allocated on the heap 18:00:32 using a special keyword 18:00:33 since ML has no mutable variables, only heap references 18:00:34 as well as month by month 18:00:47 like "heap i = 0; function () { i=3};" 18:00:48 to see if there is more past after holidays or such 18:00:50 that would be mutable 18:00:55 hm 18:01:05 sounds hard to analyse to me 18:01:18 what is hard to analyse? 18:01:30 no idea how to do it, apart from some very extensive word list, and I suspect that is far from a good solution 18:01:35 ktne, ehird, by the way, wouldn't it be interesting to analyse how much of irc is in present, future and past tense, and make some shiny graph? 18:01:38 say this channel, year by year 18:01:45 AnMaster: ah 18:01:57 AnMaster: stemming, yo. 18:01:59 ehird: so what about my new proposal? 18:02:06 consider stuff like "red", that could be "I red that book yesterday" as well as "that book is red" 18:02:07 ktne: it's exactly what PHP did, and it's awful. 18:02:13 AnMaster: no, because that's "I read" 18:02:19 ehird, ah true 18:02:22 ehird: why it's awful? looks like a good compromise to me 18:02:23 right 18:02:27 ktne: it's not :P 18:02:33 ehird: well, ok but why? 18:02:41 it just isn't :D 18:02:48 ehird, that is illogical, it is past tense in "I walked on that road yesterday" 18:02:52 ah, so just because it's verbose? 18:02:58 AnMaster: err, and? 18:03:04 or non-orthogonal? :) 18:03:13 ktne: it's verbose, it's hard to predict in advance, it exposes low-level details to the programmer, it's non-orthogonal, ... 18:03:20 ehird, isn't it a bit odd that it is present tense then? or am I mixing something up 18:03:25 well i can understand why you say that :-D 18:03:28 AnMaster: ... 18:03:36 but i guess i'll go with this because i really need performance 18:03:45 ehird, look, I'm tired and have a headache... 18:04:43 AnMaster: :D 18:04:47 ktne: just implement it efficiently 18:04:49 without that 18:05:00 also, you're really way to obsessed about performance :) 18:05:02 + I hurt myself badly the day before yesterday, one leg is kind of bluish from the knee and 10 cm up, (which is why I'm so tired since it hurt so much I had problems sleeping) 18:05:12 ehird: is it possible to implement it as fast as C? 18:05:18 fell on the ice outside 18:05:25 ehird: well performance is one of the main reasons i implement my own language :) 18:05:33 No!! Nothing is! None of these advanced features can go that fast ktne! If you want C speed, you have to USE A LANGUAGE ON THE LEVEL OF C! 18:05:36 i'm not satisfied with the performance of javascript :) 18:05:40 ehird, that reminds me, didn't you have a bit of snow or such in UK a few days ago? 18:05:46 or did I misremember 18:05:49 AnMaster: a lil. 18:06:09 ehird, saw something in the paper about traffic chaos in London iirc? 18:06:18 ehird: yes but the performance loss for an orthogonal one is too big for me 18:06:18 I live up north, so I wouldn't know :-) 18:06:21 ehird, so I guess around half a meter of snow at least? 18:06:24 ktne: is it? 18:06:28 have you implemented it? 18:06:29 tested it? 18:06:32 tried different strategies? 18:06:33 optimized? 18:06:39 AnMaster: Maybe in London. Not here. 18:06:41 no, but i guess it's > 5% 18:06:46 I mean, anything less than, say, 30 cm would hardly cause traffic chaos 18:06:55 ktne: guesses are worthless in rational programming 18:06:55 ehird, don't read morning papers? 18:06:59 AnMaster: argh, you fell on the ice too? let's move to the mediterranean 18:06:59 i already lose a lot of performance in some other places, this is a place where i can easily get performance :) 18:07:02 AnMaster: Not most of the time :-) 18:07:22 [sp] 18:07:23 ehird: i agree, but also i don't feel like implementing the full stuff :) 18:07:36 AnMaster: about 2 inches of snow, I live half way up 18:07:38 your language's loss i guess 18:07:44 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:07:48 :-( 18:07:52 oerjan, sure. July same year: argh, it is 40 C outside in the sun, lets move to Scandinavia! 18:08:08 impomatic, 2 inches in SI units? 18:08:27 $ units "2 inch cm" 18:08:27 Definition: 0.000508 m^2 18:08:27 <-- fail? 18:08:38 oh 18:08:40 yes 18:08:43 the arrow was correct 18:08:48 * AnMaster fixes the quotes 18:08:55 5.08 cm 18:08:55 ok 18:09:01 impomatic, well that isn't very much 18:09:38 bah :D 18:09:42 I mean, around 20 cm and I would understand the issus 18:09:44 issue* 18:10:22 oerjan, I find hot Swedish summer days horribly hot, so I'm quite sure I couldn't stand it (at? on?) in the Mediterranean 18:11:04 It doesn't need much to bring the U.K. to a standstill :-) 18:11:27 AnMaster: if they don't have winter tyres, then it takes just about nothing 18:12:50 The news reports have been talking about the big freeze and arctic conditions. In reality it's just been a few cm of snow and -2C overnight 18:13:04 what we want is somewhere with _stable_ weather 18:13:56 -15C here. BRR 18:14:07 oh and in the day 18:15:02 British spring/summer weather is perfect for me :-) 18:15:30 oerjan, oh right, and I guess there is no law in UK about that? In Sweden I think you must have it between November and March or something like that 18:15:50 (I don't have a car, so I haven't needed to remember the details) 18:16:03 impomatic, -2C? Bah, that is warm 18:16:09 something like that in norway too 18:16:22 I think last week it was like -17C in the middle of the day 18:16:34 today it was something like -10 or so iirc 18:16:51 indoors 18:17:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:17:36 (no not really, but it feels like it, and yes, both fireplaces are in state == active atm) 18:17:55 I was going to call Monty Python sketch on that last one 18:18:31 oerjan, hm you mean stable as in ~ 19-22 C all the year around, will maybe down to 18 C during night? 18:19:08 maybe a _little_ higher 18:19:32 possibly with a bit of rain in the early morning (5:00-6:00 or so) to clear the air of any dust before the day (and to keep the ecosystem at least slightly in balance) 18:19:40 Hmmm... it's 25.4C indoors at the moment :-) 18:19:41 Okay, I think I've read enough. Commence operation codename metal (and brace for epic failure, naturally.) 18:19:55 oerjan, really? 19-23 C then I guess 18:20:04 ehird, what is this operation? 18:20:18 the haskell OS? 18:20:46 AnMaster: yeah. 18:21:38 Okay, "foreign export ccall" is what I need to expose Haskell functions to other stuff. 18:22:00 ehird, anyway I suspect a possible way to do it would be creating some restricted subset, a freestanding subset that can be used for the MM subsystem, because MM seems like hardest _large_ part 18:22:09 I mean, sure you need asm for stuff like port io and what not 18:22:17 AnMaster: That's called "Only use strict, unboxed types". 18:22:23 but the mm code would not be "small" 18:22:31 ehird, right 18:22:34 Informally, "don't use any non-primitive types, and sprinkle #s and !s everywhere that doesn't cause a syntax error". 18:22:42 Ugly as all hell, no doubt. 18:22:44 :-) 18:22:51 something like asm("OUT 80h") is "small" 18:23:00 ehird, what does #s and !s do? 18:23:12 3# is an Int# 18:23:14 where Int# means 18:23:20 "a primitive, unboxed (not on the heap) int" 18:23:23 ah 18:23:26 +# is Int# -> Int# -> Int# 18:23:31 are they often used in haskell? 18:23:32 and compiles to a one-instruction assembly addition 18:23:43 AnMaster: no, not unless you're going for very high speed 18:23:47 and why can't it figure it out itself? 18:23:53 it can, sometimes 18:23:57 but it doesn't 18:23:57 ah :) 18:23:59 for the g 18:23:59 c 18:24:01 gc 18:24:05 hm ok 18:24:06 AnMaster: and it's needed to _ensure_ they are unboxed 18:24:14 AnMaster: !s are bang patterns 18:24:16 oh yes not only mm, you need a full blown gc 18:24:20 hm 18:24:20 specifically 18:24:23 \!x -> ... 18:24:26 means that whenever this is evaluated 18:24:30 x is strictly evalutaed 18:24:32 i.e., no laziness 18:24:38 i.e., no thunks (0-argument functions, used for laziness) 18:24:44 how does haskell handle the gc at compile? as a library included at link time? or more central in the code? 18:24:49 oh yes not only mm, you need a full blown gc 18:24:53 The GHC runtime system includes the gc. 18:25:04 I don't write that; I write the neccessary libc&etc to run the gc. 18:25:04 well... 18:25:08 hm 18:25:17 Another project has done this, but they didn't try and write the libc&etc mostly in Haskell. 18:25:22 something like newlib maybe? 18:25:31 didn't ais use that for gcc-bf 18:25:36 That's written in C. 18:25:43 I'm writing it in Haskell + sprinkles of asm. 18:25:43 well true 18:25:48 Plus some C, if really really needed. 18:26:50 well. no offence meant, but writing a good memory management system is hard as it is, and doing it in some haskell + lot of asm instead of lot of C + some asm, well... 18:27:08 I wish you good luck! :) 18:27:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:27:20 (you will need it) 18:27:30 AnMaster: no duh 18:27:38 i'm probably going to steal a malloc 18:27:41 sheesh, stop being so condescending 18:27:57 it's not like writing an OS with basic memory management is a huge herculean effort that nobody can accomplish 18:30:53 ehird, indeed, but I said good one 18:31:04 Good one is rather irrelevant as an experiment starts out 18:31:15 ehird: you can implement a simple slab allocator in hundreds of lines of code 18:31:21 ktne: I know 18:31:23 ehird: and it's extremely efficient 18:31:24 tell that to AnMaster :-) 18:31:32 at least compared to other naive allocators 18:31:41 % ./a.out 18:31:41 zsh: bus error ./a.out 18:31:42 well, it's not actually naive 18:31:44 Doggammit. 18:31:50 memory management in kernel is rather more complex, stuff like TLB, virtual address space vs. physical memory, and so on 18:31:55 stuff userspace doesn't need to handle 18:31:56 (Yes, that was a Haskell program segfaulting.) 18:32:08 ehird, wow, what did you do with it? 18:32:15 to make it segfault 18:32:21 AnMaster: Well, I'm using the FFI to export my own main function to C. 18:32:24 That might have something to do with it :P 18:32:40 indeed 18:33:33 ehird, anyway will you use separate kernel/user spaces? 18:33:42 It's just going to be kernelspace first... 18:33:45 right 18:33:48 do you realise how long OS development takes? :P 18:33:50 protected mode kernel space only? 18:33:58 Who cares: whatever's simplest. 18:34:12 if I ever make an actual project out of this, there'll be way more ifne-grained control than kernel/user. 18:34:16 But, that's work. :D 18:34:19 and I do know how long it takes 18:34:58 reading ghc's asm output is, um, difficult 18:35:06 think think closure thunk _ghczmprim_GHCziTypes_Czh_static_info 18:35:13 *thunk thunk 18:35:41 ehird, using something like bochs or qemu? iirc bochs has a good debugger built in, and with qemu you can attach gdb 18:35:50 ehird, nice mangling scheme 18:35:51 I'm not at that point yet. 18:35:58 I'm just reading the asm output. 18:36:02 Not in OS-land atm 18:36:08 right 18:36:24 I guess making this kind of work in user space first would be useful 18:36:42 void main(void) 18:36:42 { 18:36:43 ^ despite being technically forbidden, this is the closest type I can get the FFI to output, and gcc accepts it... 18:36:47 now to stop it segfaulting! 18:36:55 um 18:37:08 ehird, does it segfault at return of main()? 18:37:12 dunno 18:37:13 if yes I solved that issue once 18:37:20 _exit(0); 18:37:24 do not use exit() 18:37:27 wtf 18:37:28 it works now 18:37:33 AnMaster: I don't have control over that code 18:37:36 ah 18:37:39 hmm 18:37:42 ehird, yes you do! 18:37:45 in cat -v, ^@ is \0 right? 18:37:47 AnMaster: no, I don't 18:37:49 the ffi generates that 18:37:58 cpp -Dexit=_exit outputfile.c 18:37:59 ;P 18:38:03 there's no exit(). 18:38:06 ah 18:38:08 it doesn't know it's generating a main function. 18:38:11 replacing return would be harder 18:38:13 it's just exporting a haskell function as "main", blindly 18:38:45 ehird, idea: export it as real_main and write a main() stub, you won't have such a main() when going OS level anyway 18:39:00 that's less fun :-) 18:39:05 (but need some wrapper that match whatever grub expects, or whatever you use) 18:39:24 ah, I think I see the problem 18:39:30 that is probably saner for debugging... 18:39:34 the generated main() just cuts in doing stuff, when the RTS isn't initialized yet 18:39:38 Since we're talking about osdev, how do I get two processes to agree on a channel to communicate by? 18:39:53 impomatic, that is very vague 18:40:35 * AnMaster waits for a clarification of what impomatic meant. IPC? TCP? shared memory? 18:41:58 I can implement the IPC primatives easily. But how would program A and B that need to communicate with each other allocate a channel? 18:42:07 make the kernel broker one to both? 18:43:40 impomatic, well, you could implement some sort of named pipe facility for example to allow different user space processes to open the same named pipe 18:44:01 impomatic: do something like: 18:44:06 this could be either a special file on a real file system like on *nix, or some sort of virtual namespace 18:44:14 process 31: broker_channel(32); 18:44:15 with attached buffers 18:44:18 process 32: broker_channel(31); 18:44:22 and it syncs them both up? 18:45:00 or you could of course use shared memory, again possible named. 18:45:25 ehird, interesting idea btw. How would the process read/write from the channel? 18:45:30 AnMaster: additional functions? 18:45:38 well I meant, what would they look like? 18:45:39 CHANNEL broker_channel(PID) 18:45:44 reading fds or? 18:45:45 hm ok 18:45:48 AnMaster: whatever 18:45:51 the question is about brokering 18:45:55 well yes 18:46:32 you could also (if you implement networking), open a connection on loopback 18:47:39 Hmmm... 18:48:10 impomatic, take a look at the posix apis for shared memory and such maybe? 18:49:10 since not implementing stdin/stdout sounds impractical you could possible connect stdio between processes 18:49:31 like | does in a (posix) shell (and also in dos iirc) 18:49:52 once you got to that level I mean 18:50:36 ehird, btw, that 31/32 in the example above, was that PIDs or? 18:50:48 yes 18:51:05 hm ok 18:51:18 Purely Invented Designators 18:51:23 hah 18:52:20 oerjan, I would suggest Purely Independable Designators 18:52:45 Okay, I'll google them 18:52:51 what? 18:52:58 the thing oerjan said? 18:54:23 impomatic, what "them"? 18:55:45 Posix apis 18:57:04 well, just man shm_overview 18:57:09 (on linux) 18:57:18 good introduction to shared memory 18:57:36 of course with shm you need mutexes or such 18:57:37 Possibly Incomprehensible Devices 18:58:20 oerjan, Possibly Integer Designators (iirc PIDs doesn't _have_ to be integers on POSIX, at least in older posix specs, not sure about newer ones) 18:58:37 % ./test 18:58:37 Hello, world! 18:58:40 WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP 18:59:06 ehird, so what is special about it? Not using libc malloc() or? 18:59:20 Here's what's special about it: 19:00:03 AnMaster: http://pastie.org/private/ywv9mcpzwwqno8nctwo7dq 19:01:16 interesting 19:01:45 ehird, so you ended up with a C main() after all? 19:01:53 AnMaster: no, these are just experiments 19:02:04 right 19:02:11 this one, specifically, was how easy it was to write haskell code that can be called from other stuff 19:02:18 with the answer being... very 19:02:42 technically, I should be doing `hs_add_root(__stginit_Export);` after the hs_init, where __stginit_Export is defined...somewhere, but what the heck 19:02:43 it works 19:02:54 AnMaster: also, that putCStr is a lot simpler than I thought 19:03:00 what you see there is pointer arithmetic being done with haskell 19:03:07 (peek p) = (*p) 19:03:13 (plusPtr p n) = (p+n) 19:04:23 if you ask me, that's cool. 19:10:05 AnMaster: 19:10:05 http://pastie.org/private/7xnvw7j6cdwqdpz07wsdyg 19:10:12 the dependencies of the complete linked test program I showed 19:10:14 haskell haskell haskell 19:10:19 yeah - *gettimeofday*. 19:10:20 I don't know either. 19:10:31 maybe it's to produce erratic behaviour depending on the phase of the moon. 19:10:57 hm 19:11:00 see how horrible and ugly haskell is? It even has pointer arithmetic. 19:11:20 lament: XD 19:11:34 wonder if you can disable bignums to stop it trying ot clal gmp 19:11:38 yeah - *gettimeofday*. <-- can't you make ghc *output* C code? 19:11:49 AnMaster: it doesn't compile via C. 19:11:50 well, it can. 19:11:52 but not by default 19:12:10 besides, what the fuck is the use of it? what can you do with the C that you can't do with the object code? 19:13:11 Compile on $OBSCURE_PLATFORM_X 19:13:16 ehird: do you know of a nice cross-platform way to get keyup/keydown events? 19:13:35 I want to write a program that lets you play the computer keyboard as if it were an accordion keyboard. 19:13:42 GregorR: ghc is pretty widely-supporting 19:13:46 lament: use SDL or OpenGL 19:13:47 ehird, I mean for figuring out what gettimeofday() is used for....... 19:13:47 that sort of stuff 19:13:58 AnMaster: ah. it'll just be used by the RTS and therefore every program has to have it 19:14:05 maybe seeding a PRNG or sth 19:14:27 well not the libc prng, no call to srand or srandom there 19:14:46 also the RTS? is it linked in as a static library? 19:14:49 oh, right, sdl does it 19:14:58 no idea why i didn't think of it 19:15:26 have you played with haskell sdl bindings? 19:15:42 AnMaster: 1. dunno 2. Dunno maybe 19:15:46 lament: nope, I want to thoug 19:15:47 h 19:16:06 i always thought of sdl as primarily a video thing 19:16:12 i don't even need any sort of UI 19:16:18 That's because it is :P 19:16:37 prediction: 2010 headlines: First kernel using SDL internally released 19:16:38 GregorR: no 19:16:42 it's directmedia 19:16:43 Most of the input plugins are pretty closely tied to an associated output plugin, so I imagine you'll find no joy. 19:17:17 ehird, not same api iirc? 19:17:28 AnMaster: SDL = Simple DirectMedia Layer 19:17:34 ehird: Yes, that's what they all say, hence the preponderance of non-video SDL apps :P 19:17:35 yes 19:17:51 nice, it seems SDL is exactly what i need 19:17:54 ehird, but "directmedia" made me think of the nightmare called Direct X 19:18:01 Hahaha 19:18:01 I see. 19:18:10 (by SDL i of course mean Graphics.UI.SDL) 19:18:19 (See! It's under Graphics.UI) 19:23:09 I have a simple OS - bootloader, kernel with memory management, scheduling, etc written in asm 19:23:39 neat 19:23:45 but not as neat as... /me shuts up 19:30:54 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:33:02 Why is "indexable" not an english word? 19:34:09 blah, as usual installing stuff on windows is a pain 19:36:01 Graphics\UI\SDL\General.hsc:1:17: SDL.h: No such file or directory 19:36:03 :( 19:37:31 isnt there no sdl stuff in the include directory of your compiler? 19:37:40 of course there is 19:37:56 i think the catch is i needed to specify it as C:\cygwin\blah 19:37:59 as opposed to just /blah 19:41:25 um, cygwin should take care of that 19:41:29 if you do it inside cygwin 19:42:10 right, but it doesn't 19:43:30 -!- impomatic has quit ("cw for newbies http://tr.im/xep :-)"). 19:48:43 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:53:36 jeez 19:53:40 cygwin is black magic 19:54:01 so i changed from unix to windows path syntax, and it finds header files 19:54:09 so i do the same thing for libraries, yet it still complains 19:54:17 so i go into /usr/lib and all the libraries are there 19:54:30 so i open Explorer and go into C:\cygwin\usr\lib and it's fucking empty 19:54:58 i copied the libraries by hand into another directory and everything compiled 20:00:34 lament, um 20:00:45 -!- ktne has left (?). 20:00:50 lament, afaik cygwin basically mount --bind /lib /usr/lib 20:00:53 internally 20:00:56 so expected 20:01:03 it does same for /bin and /usr/bin 20:01:21 oh :( 20:01:52 well it compiled, i just have no idea if it managed to install properly 20:01:59 lament, but not sure why you would need to do think about that inside cygwin 20:02:15 are you using some non-cygwin app when building? 20:02:19 -!- Hiato has joined. 20:02:24 right 20:02:26 i'm using cabal 20:02:31 which is uhhhh a cygwin app 20:02:34 but 20:02:41 it must be doing some magic of its own 20:02:47 when calling gcc 20:04:39 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 20:06:31 hm 20:06:50 lament, what cabal? 20:06:52 there is none 20:07:06 Hahahahaha you referenced a meme! 20:07:07 So hilarious! 20:07:19 Please put some thought before attempting humour. 20:07:37 ehird, yes I do. I try to make it as bad as possible. 20:07:53 there's a term for people who do that, it's called "irritating". 20:07:54 I wouldn't tell a slightly bad joke, it as to be a positively anti-joke 20:08:07 ehird, no, "irritating" is far below what I aim for 20:08:26 Fun fact: aiming for people to hate you because you're annoying is not a noble goal. 20:08:38 sure it is. 20:08:55 alas, I do not aim for them specifically. 20:09:39 1) tell truly bad jokes. 20:09:44 2) take over the world 20:09:46 3) ???? 20:09:52 4) PROFIT! 20:10:49 Hey, it's another irritating meme. 20:10:54 How amusing. 20:11:59 ehird, All ur memes iz belongz to ur momma! 20:12:07 (yay! three in one) 20:12:10 * ehird eyes ignore button 20:12:33 ehird, sorry about the heart attack 20:12:34 ;P 20:12:36 afk 20:18:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("brb"). 20:23:57 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:25:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:25:53 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 20:30:03 blah, i'll never get this to work. 20:30:11 I hate libraries. 20:32:23 lament: whuz wrong 20:32:29 if it's ghc linking, 20:32:31 ghc --make Main 20:32:37 let the computer figure it out for you 20:32:57 so i (thought i) installed sdl 20:33:02 and then i compiled and installed hSDL 20:33:08 and i'm trying to compile my example 20:33:14 ghc --make Main 20:33:25 and i get this 20:34:07 /Users/hercules/trunk/SDL-1.2/./src/main/win32/SDL_win32_main.c:246:0: undefined reference to `SDL_main 20:34:57 all this tells me is that somebody named hercules must have kept his SDL source tree on an OS X machine. 20:35:10 lament: why didn't you install hSDL with cabal-install? 20:35:14 i did! 20:35:21 okay. 20:35:23 try ghc --make Main 20:35:24 :-P 20:35:28 this is not an hsdl error, this is an sdl error. 20:35:35 ah 20:35:36 i am using --make. 20:35:37 correct you are 20:35:45 lament: reinstall SDL? 20:35:55 before you spend hours trying to debug it and find you just compiled it wrong 20:35:59 i did just install it 20:36:34 hate :( 20:37:02 lament: ok, maybe your program is bugg'd 20:37:25 no. 20:37:45 (my program doesn't do anything) 20:37:53 lament: is it just main = return ()? 20:38:14 anyway, you installed SDL wrong, is my diagnosis. :-P 20:38:20 yes. 20:38:20 WAIT 20:38:21 lament: 20:38:27 you need an sdlMain function or sth in haskell 20:38:28 I bet 20:38:31 yes. 20:38:32 to have it link properly 20:38:35 so... make one 20:38:58 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 20:39:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:39:47 oh, i see. 20:39:48 no. 20:40:19 lament: ok then, alternate possibility: 20:40:37 hSDL needs you to do something else, and that error is because you didn't 20:40:39 alos 20:40:45 hSDL version incompatible with SDL version maybe? 20:40:51 see 20:40:56 and finally, you installed SDL wrong 20:40:57 so many possibilities for stuff to go wrong! 20:40:58 it's one of them 20:41:01 lament: 3. 20:41:03 that's why i hate libraries. 20:41:03 3 possibilities. 20:41:10 determining which should not be very hard. 20:41:11 ehird: each one possibly taking days to investigate. 20:41:19 incompatible versions should take minutes to find out 20:41:21 lament: just ask #haskell. 20:41:27 the author is probably there. 20:41:38 he is. 20:42:25 but i'm sure he uses unix and everything just works for him. 20:43:00 maybe people would help you more if you asked instead of wh inin... 20:43:03 *whining 20:43:11 i like whining more. 20:43:20 then your program won't work. your loss only 20:43:27 :( 20:43:43 is typing out your problem into a string of characters and hitting enter difficult for you? :-P 20:45:38 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:48:42 i think the error is because i'm a retard 20:48:49 lament: i see 20:48:52 what was wrong 20:49:27 error code id 10 t 20:49:51 lament: did you fix it 20:49:56 no :P 20:50:02 oh just ask #haskell or I will 20:50:08 haha 20:50:14 don't! 20:50:26 do it yourself then 20:50:29 I give you 30 seconds 20:50:38 10 20:50:43 20 20:50:47 i'm sure it's not a haskell probelm 20:50:49 problem 20:50:51 30 20:51:20 lament: there you go. 20:51:24 * ehird so kind 20:53:22 lament: well, that worked splendidly. 20:53:42 thanks 20:53:57 did you see that wonderful sarcasm? 20:53:59 it was sarcastic 20:56:21 ohh that's what it was 20:56:49 * lament tries to compile SDL instead of using a binary 20:57:00 lament: what went wrong 20:57:16 -!- alex89ru has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:57:20 nothing yet, i'm still only running configure, but just you wait! 20:58:24 lament: but what was wrong with the binary 20:59:10 i don't know 20:59:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:04:40 -!- Judofyr has joined. 21:14:04 i think i have to reinstall ghc actually 21:44:09 -!- impomatic has joined. 21:44:50 Has anyone got the spec for Hanoi Love? 21:45:27 The link on the wiki is broken, nothing in the web archive :-/ 21:47:08 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 21:56:34 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:57:16 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:12:36 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 22:15:54 -!- comex has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating..."). 22:16:08 -!- comex has joined. 22:22:22 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:30:08 my snusp interpreter http://aetius.ae.funpic.de/snusp.py 23:03:15 hey goise 23:10:26 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:17:14 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:20:36 "NetSurf is a web browser for RISC OS" 23:20:38 That's one large market 23:24:47 KingOfKarlsruhe: Three things to fix; 1. "|" and "=" does not carry any action. 2. You need to extend the lines so all are the same length. 3. The for-loop in __call__ that look for "$" needs a break-statement. 23:25:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:31:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 23:31:50 MizardX: ich have a new version http://aetius.ae.funpic.de/snusp_2.py 23:32:23 MizardX: thank you for support, i have to go to bed now 23:36:19 MizardX: the slash and backslash function was broken, now it works 23:36:24 bye bye 23:36:29 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:37:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:52:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 23:56:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:59:53 -!- Corun has joined. 2009-02-05: 00:03:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 00:35:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:38:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 00:38:52 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 00:51:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:01:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 01:01:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Client Quit). 01:01:34 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 02:59:21 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:06:51 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 04:30:28 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:04:46 -!- whoppix has quit ("Verlassend"). 06:32:03 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 06:46:43 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 06:47:49 -!- impomatic has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:24:26 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:25:18 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 08:58:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:01:14 Please put some thought before attempting humour. 09:01:20 There is no humour. 09:12:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 09:32:55 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:36:29 -!- jix has joined. 09:40:35 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit). 09:40:46 -!- jix has joined. 09:48:33 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:53:35 (ehird : how about , , then ?) 10:04:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:06:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:19:22 Hi ais523 10:19:26 hi 10:19:57 I've just written an underload interpreter and wondered why []<> are reserved? 10:20:06 historical reasons 10:20:12 Ah, okay 10:20:14 although having a few reserved characters is useful 10:20:27 when you're writing interps in esolangs 10:20:41 It's at http://corewar.co.uk/assembly/underload.htm 10:20:52 yep, I noticed the link added to the wiki 10:21:03 anyway, it's always nice to see more Underload interps 10:21:25 especially as they help inform the Underlambda Project, which is mostly Underload-based 10:21:59 how does Redcode do I/O? By character code? 10:28:21 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 10:29:45 * ski__ thought recode had no I/O 10:30:47 Someone added i/o opcodes 10:30:51 well, S appears to be implemented in that interp impomatic linked 10:30:54 but I can't figure out how it works 10:31:27 sts for output, lds for input (only implemented in exmars streams) 10:31:48 there's also input output in ARES which has a screen buffer mapped into memory 10:31:49 ah 10:32:06 but in each case, you can output a character just by knowing its character code? 10:32:20 I'm trying to design a completely general I/O model that all esolangs with general I/O can use 10:32:22 and it's not trivial 10:35:40 I'm wondering which Esolang to implement next 10:35:54 have you done a rewriting language? 10:35:57 have a go at Thue 10:36:06 I've look at about 50 at random, but not seen anything I fancy 10:36:27 also, I'd be interested at how short you can get a MiniMAX interpreter 10:38:26 That sounds like a challenge :-) 10:38:47 it is, I designed MiniMAX to have the shortest interpreter possible 10:38:58 and I've done some crazily short ones as DOS COM files 10:39:03 but Redcode might be able to manage it even shorter 10:51:19 4 instructions for the main loop: mov }ptr, >ptr / add.ba }ptr, ptr / mov.x ptr, ptr / jmp -3 10:51:37 pretty impressive 10:52:15 If the pointer is put in the third instruction and set to the initial values, no extra instructions are required for setup 10:52:32 and you're explicitly allowed to do that 10:53:59 Yes 10:54:22 looks like Redcode beats x86 by one instruction 10:54:25 Are the i/o extensions documented anywhere? 10:54:36 no, because I can't figure out how they work myself 10:55:26 basically they just let you do DOS interrupts by executing a 0 10:55:26 Just change the third line to ptr mov.x #2,2 - the program should be directly after the jmp 10:59:02 The 8086 interpreter can align the pointer to either an odd or even byte, but works on words 10:59:25 That behavior isn't portable to the redcode version 10:59:44 hmm... IIRC the 8086 program only makes aligned accesses, though 10:59:54 at least, if you fill memory with even numbers to start with, and you're supposed to 11:00:05 :-) 11:00:38 choosing what form of input works best is part of the fun of MiniMAX, I didn't compromise in trying to get it as short as possible 11:01:05 although there are various crazily short langs that did, I think there's a 36-bit interpreter in DOS for a TC language with I/O and programs only contain printable characters 11:01:10 it's on Esolang somewhere 11:01:26 ah, MinISCule 11:03:36 Back later 12:12:13 hi 12:12:59 hi 12:13:08 * AnMaster tries to figure out what the convo is about without reading it 12:13:33 well, you need something to give you a clue as to what it's about 12:13:41 yes the last few lines 12:13:56 I/O, ASM, old x86? 12:14:16 it's about very short interps for TC languages 12:14:24 impomatic wrote a MiniMAX interp in 4 words of Redcode 12:14:29 machine code consisting of only printable chars? 12:14:46 also what is Redcode? 12:14:46 no, I was talking about some of the other golfed langs 12:14:59 AnMaster: programming language used by Core Wars 12:15:02 it resembles asm, mostly 12:16:16 AnMaster: http://vyznev.net/corewar/guide.html is a good guide, if you haven't seen it before 12:16:34 um 12:16:34 hm 12:16:51 what are the commands in MiniMAX? 12:17:02 or have I misundestood the wiki page 12:17:12 AnMaster: there are no commands 12:17:15 ah 12:17:23 it's an OISC variant, and the command takes no arguments 12:17:26 so you don't write it at all 12:17:29 "A MiniMAX program consists of a series of 3-word commands" 12:17:38 well, you set up initial memory 12:17:40 ah 12:17:41 to control the command 12:17:51 so as a command is described entirely by its arguments 12:18:04 (which are taken from memory, not in the program) 12:18:10 you can think of the arguments as the command 12:25:33 yes and I still think it is strange OISC can be TC... 12:25:47 I don't, just about anything can be TC 12:26:08 * AnMaster refrains from jokes about that 12:34:04 * impomatic has been playing with various OISC this week 12:34:39 we're going to have to invent a ZISC now 12:34:44 if that even makes sense, it probably doesn't 12:34:53 ais523, I already suggested that some time ago 12:35:02 do you have any idea about how it could work? 12:35:05 and the term was in use 12:35:11 there's Wait I suppose, but that doesn't count 12:35:12 for some ANN thing 12:35:23 meh, we can reuse it if we want to 12:35:37 we're esolangers, things like name uniqueness shouldn't get in our way 12:36:02 right, lets call the ZISC interpreter "MSVC"? 12:36:29 heh 12:37:16 besides, the command-line name for the real MSVC is cl, so there wouldn't even be a conflict 12:38:16 ais523, well good point, we should make MSVC the ZISC IDE, and the compiler ICC? 12:38:32 interpreter could be, uh, sh? 12:38:40 let's just come up with a spec first 12:38:43 yeah 12:38:47 and I have no idea 12:38:52 and I really like the idea of calling an esolang interpreter sh 12:39:09 ais523, csh would be better, no one use THAT 12:39:16 There's a few references to ZISC about 12:39:32 I've been looking at them this week 12:39:38 I'm still not entirely sure how you'd do an esolang with no instructions, though 12:39:40 ais523, well something not based on instructions is the only way I can think of 12:39:47 as soon as you make it do anything, that's arguably an instruction 12:39:55 so yes, it would have to not be instruction-based 12:39:57 such as based on ANN 12:40:00 ANN? 12:40:05 oh, neural networks 12:40:08 yes 12:40:24 ais523, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Instruction_Set_Computer 12:40:26 *shrug* 12:41:06 meh, pattern matching's an instruction 12:41:22 in fact, in a lang like Thue I tend to think of each pattern as an instruction 12:41:41 * AnMaster curses tvtroupes 12:41:47 tropes* 12:45:42 Can bf programs be self-modifying? 12:45:46 no, but see BrainTwist 12:46:00 it's BF, but with an X command that swaps the code and the data arrays 12:46:24 ais523, how does it handle unbalanced loops? 12:46:32 not sure, I've never tried to use it 12:46:46 * ais523 tries to remember how FYB handles unbalanced loops 12:46:55 IIRC, it ignores unmatched [s and ]s 12:47:25 * impomatic goes to look at BrainTwist 12:47:27 I would have implemented FukYorBrane in Redcode, but there was something tricky that put me off 12:47:49 there are all sorts of weirdnesses in FYB 12:48:02 the modulo-17 arithmetic, for one (IIRC it was 17, it might have been some other odd number) 12:52:18 The spec doesn't make clear some points. I think to do with commit, uncommit, threads and defect 12:53:06 ah yes, I have no idea what happens if both bots try to commit into the same thread, for instance 12:53:18 there's a reference interp lying around somwhere, I suppose we could find out by experiment 12:53:22 s/thread/tape/ 12:55:56 There's some kind of Corewar game which uses a function language. Called struggle I think 12:56:36 there was a BF-based game inspired by Corewars running on Agora for a while, and it's just starting back up again I think 12:56:43 not FYB, actual BF 12:56:49 you didn't disrupt enemy code, but enemy data 12:57:07 it got boring after a bit though as people found the best strategies 13:02:59 Do you have a URL? I haven't found anything in google 13:03:13 let me try to find it 13:04:20 Here's the spec for struggle http://tr.im/eqhy 13:04:55 http://faculty.washington.edu/kerim/nomic/bf/index.php is the hill 13:05:05 everything else was done via email 13:05:36 but the basic rules were ordinary BF without I/O, both programs use the same tape but < for one program is > for the other, each program starts at their left end of the tape 13:05:51 initial cell is initialised to 128, you lose if you fall off the tape or the cell you started on becomes 0 13:05:56 and random tape length 13:07:45 Thanks 13:09:30 the problem I think was that the tape was too wide to write a defensive program 13:09:42 if it had been randomized in, say, the range 30-60, it would have been more interesting 13:23:59 I'm still scoring 0! 13:24:10 what tactics are you trying? 13:25:11 -!- ais523 has quit ("lunch, will be back later"). 13:31:18 Tactic: keep moving right, until something non-zero is found. Then set it to zero and repeat 13:31:18 >+[>[-]+] 13:32:00 Heh, I just did [>[-]+]; that's #3 when I run it against joust0..9. Don't feel like thinking about anything nontrivial. 13:49:06 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:50:30 I've got the hang of it now. #1 against the first 15 programs on the list :-) 13:51:09 well done 13:51:26 I can beat all except some of the last few, if the tournament were still going I'd be about 5th 13:52:42 Is there some way I can submit programs by email? 13:52:53 not any more, there was but the tournament ended 13:53:12 there's a new one planned, with different rules, but it hasn't been finalised 13:53:43 hi 13:53:47 hi 13:55:24 Hi Ehird :-) 14:26:16 lo 14:31:56 Challenger vs. joust12 - Wins: -1 14:32:06 ? 14:32:16 How can I have -1 win :-/ 14:32:18 I didn't write that, but a negative win count seems unlikely 14:36:42 impomatic: o_O 14:36:58 [[>+++++[-]-]-] get -1 wins against joust12 15:17:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:18:34 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:26:40 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:27:50 -!- jix has joined. 15:32:07 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit). 15:32:22 -!- jix has joined. 15:57:10 -!- ktne has joined. 15:57:33 would a continuation implementation require that the entire stack be copied in order to save the local variables along the call path? 15:59:28 No, not if you use CPS. 15:59:41 Can I say Cheney on the MTA again? I like saying that. 16:00:00 CPS = Continuation Passing Style, google it 16:00:07 Then continuations are free, 0-cons 16:00:14 i checked Cheney on the MTA 16:00:23 but it looks like the stack has a fixed max size 16:00:41 when you jump off the cliff i mean 16:01:26 yes 16:01:30 but since you use CPS 16:01:30 the whole stack is there 16:01:36 google continuation passing style, you'll see 16:02:17 what happens if i have huge local variables? 16:02:31 What do you mean 16:02:32 ? 16:02:52 with stack-based calls, the calling mechanism is agnostic to huge stack sizes 16:03:06 ummmm? 16:03:30 i mean, if you call a function, the performance of the call itself is not related to how large the local variables are 16:04:07 but it looks like that if you copy the live objects when jumping off the cliff then you get a serious performance hit if the cliff is very large 16:04:17 You don't copy the objects. 16:04:20 hmm 16:04:22 then? 16:04:32 how do you clean up the unused stack frames? 16:04:38 Setjmp. 16:04:43 + a call trampoline 16:04:45 + CPS 16:04:51 well, wouldn't that clean all stack frames? 16:04:59 hmm 16:05:03 No, longjmp cleans all stack frames up to the point of setjmp. 16:05:07 ktne: look up CPS 16:05:09 what you do is 16:05:11 when you're calling a function 16:05:29 do i have to allocate all local variables on heap? 16:05:31 instead you set the function & args (where the continuation is one of the arguments, remember) into a thread local variable 16:05:35 then longjmp 16:05:38 and the trampoline does the call 16:05:40 ktne: no 16:05:42 if you remember i said yesterday that i want only specially marked local variables 16:05:43 with cheney on the mta, 16:05:46 you put it all on the stack 16:05:47 to be allcoated on heap 16:05:50 all variables go on the stack 16:05:54 there is no heap 16:06:03 yes but what happens if the local variables are very large? 16:06:09 the stack is large 16:06:11 if for example in a classic stack you do this: 16:06:18 ktne: try it with chicken scheme 16:06:22 if it works, look at how it does it 16:06:22 call_large_function(),call_large_function(),call_large_function(),call_large_function() 16:06:23 :P 16:06:28 but you can do things like that in chicken yes 16:06:31 then the used stack space is constant 16:06:35 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:06:38 because the stack is cleaned after each return 16:06:47 but in cheney's mta it's not 16:07:07 so if the local variables are like several hundred mb large 16:07:29 then you get a lot of stack space required, because you need one of that PER stack frame 16:07:41 unlike the classical method where you would get that only once in the case above 16:08:02 look, I made a suggestion, CPS+cheney on the MTA, chicken uses it, and it works fine for what you're saying, if you don't want to use it then don't 16:09:37 it's not in fedora repositories 16:09:55 so... compile it yourself? 16:17:58 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:27:07 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:27:59 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 16:29:32 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:39:27 Does anyone do anything clever in BF Joust? 16:39:42 I assume everyone makes a decoy to slow down the opponent. 16:40:00 YEah. 16:40:18 pretty much everyone creates decoys, and there are various strategies to remove them 16:40:30 Do any opponents figure out whether it's quicker to increment or decrement the decoy? 16:40:40 I don't think that's possible 16:40:42 without doing it 16:40:50 impomatic: yes, to some extent 16:41:05 one of the well-doing submissions decrements a bit, and if that doesn't get anywhere increments the rest of the way 16:41:07 It's possible if someone has a regular decoy 16:41:28 I don't know of any that memorise the opponent's decoy pattern, but I haven't seen the source for all of them 16:41:29 Yes, mine does that :-) 16:42:24 I can score 254 against the last 5 opponents on the list 16:43:24 it's also common to exploit the range in which the opponent's flag could be 16:43:32 which I can't remember offhand, which is why I didn't tell you 16:43:39 but if you know where to start looking, it makes things faster 16:44:53 I linked him to the post 16:49:33 * ehird considers a haskell implementation with reallyUnsafeCallWithCurrentContinuation# :: ((a -> b) -> a) -> a 16:49:39 Wonder if that'd actually _work_ 16:49:49 who knows? 16:49:58 I don't see why it couldn't in theory 16:50:05 Well, laziness. 16:50:07 possibly only with a single unsafe 16:50:09 How would that work? 16:50:15 same way unsafe IO works 16:51:04 I guess. 16:51:35 Looks like I have to implement Haskell to find out, ay? 16:57:37 I'm giving up of 254. I beat everything apart from two of the Woggle entries 16:58:21 -!- ktne has quit ("Leaving."). 16:58:35 hmm... I should tell the contest's author of my ideas for doing something similar for the next round 16:58:44 and note that you can join Agoran contests without playing the game as a whole 17:02:15 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 17:17:41 -!- Hiato has joined. 17:18:40 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:18:43 -!- MizardX has joined. 17:22:10 -!- MizardX- has joined. 17:22:12 -!- MizardX has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:22:14 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 17:27:19 hi MizardX 17:27:37 now that I think about it your name sounds like a gangsta 17:27:43 MizzleizzardX in da house. Shiznit. 17:35:06 so. 17:36:30 -!- Corun has joined. 17:39:15 http://esolangs.org/wiki/RUM 17:39:21 ais523: could we delete the retarded, trivial BF dialects 17:39:34 i don't think anyone but their creators ever find any joy in them at all 17:39:46 ideally, you'd make a separate namespace for them 17:39:49 to keep them off random page 17:39:58 why 17:39:59 I don't like the idea of deleting information like that, inane as it may be 17:40:00 nobody wants to look a them 17:40:02 t 17:40:11 at least ESME was nonsensically amusing 17:40:14 these are just boring 17:40:18 and dilute the wiki's usefulness 17:40:39 http://github.com/irskep/rum/blob/bdef9c84909a260df137dcb57840620d6c492f05/getch.py 17:40:42 it even has a broken , 17:40:48 (gets from the terminal before enter, and doesn't print to screen) 17:40:56 that's not a BF superset 17:41:12 Comment out lines until the next LF with #. Please use discretion when putting punctuation in comments, as I have not 17:41:13 tested it at all. 17:41:16 Please use discretion when putting punctuation in comments, as I have not 17:41:17 tested it at all. 17:41:19 ARE YOU SERIOUS 17:41:28 wtf is brainf*ck 17:42:04 brainfuck put through the idiot filter. 17:48:26 "I often hang out on the #esoteric IRC channel on freenode.net with the nick kipple. " 17:48:28 no you don't :P 17:51:54 lcccccccccccccc.n 17:51:55 ^!dlrow ,olleH 17:51:57 I wish I knew how that worked 18:22:28 -!- alex89ru has joined. 18:22:36 hi 18:22:41 hi 18:26:47 hi 18:28:38 * impomatic is still looking for a language to implement! I've looked at about 100 random wiki pages now 18:28:58 impomatic: have you implemented a functional language yet? 18:29:03 -!- neosisani has joined. 18:29:13 -!- neosisani has left (?). 18:29:15 Not yet 18:29:26 Unlambda's famous, but also famously difficult to implement 18:30:25 unlambda is trivial 18:30:28 compiling, not so 18:30:53 ehird: I wouldn't call implementing c trivial, especially if you don't know the relevant tricks 18:31:03 oh, I'd do it in a real language 18:31:18 Is there a minimal language similar to minus? 18:31:19 -!- alex89ru has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:31:27 minus? 18:31:28 :P 18:31:47 you might want to implement Thue at some point, too, it's another of the classics 18:34:21 Minus has far too many special variables 18:40:16 -!- Mony has joined. 18:42:29 plop 18:42:37 dlod? 18:42:46 heh 18:48:16 dold 18:50:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:52:23 drod! 18:56:26 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:57:40 Hm I don't think this program actually worked 18:58:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:58:27 ehird: i wrote my program without sdl ultimately :( 18:58:31 lament: :< 18:58:33 so now it's mac-only 18:58:36 what did you use 18:58:45 quartz api 18:58:55 via HOC or sth? 18:59:09 it's a C api 18:59:12 ah 18:59:23 lament: could you not sdl to work? 18:59:28 no 18:59:31 not on cygwin 18:59:46 and then i read the readme file for hsdl and it said that there're difficulties getting it to work on os x as well 18:59:52 so i just decided to not bother 19:00:03 on the other hand i could just use sdl from c 19:01:23 i don't -really- care about cross-platform portability, it's not like anyone else would ever use this program :) 19:01:36 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 19:01:36 what does it do 19:02:06 it lets you play the computer keyboard like the right-hand accordion keyboard 19:02:18 you get almost three octaves of range 19:02:31 awwwwwwwwweeeeeeeeeesome 19:02:34 GIVE ME IT 19:02:39 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:04:37 ehird: you have mac? 19:04:51 err yes :P 19:04:55 lament: yes, he does 19:05:00 i'm sure you knew that./ 19:05:03 one moment, let me tar it 19:05:16 haven't I complained with you simultaneously about a guy who was dissing os x? :P 19:05:20 i'm sure that happened like months ago 19:05:26 not that people remember what happened heremonths ago 19:05:29 except me 19:07:14 how do you tar a directory? 19:07:25 lament: umm 19:07:26 tar cvf tarball.tar directoryname 19:07:28 like normal 19:07:28 :P 19:07:29 thanks 19:07:37 or cvzf if you want it as a zipped tarball 19:07:39 you could also just zip it in finder, I know that's not hardcore. 19:07:48 oh, cvzf 19:08:37 ehird: dcc 19:08:42 ya 19:08:44 you need the hmidi package installed 19:08:46 lemme fig how to accept 19:08:48 How much would have to add to Underload to make it functional? 19:08:51 YAY I DID IT 19:08:53 impomatic: it is functional 19:09:07 impomatic: technically speaking, it isn't functional, but all writing in it seems to be functional in practice 19:09:12 Hmmm... not much then 19:09:13 lament: firewall probs I think :x 19:09:16 use filebin.ca? 19:09:39 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:09:44 impomatic: it's functional in the same sense as Joy, a mainstream concatenative functional language 19:09:45 moment 19:09:52 So technically speaking, would I need to ad much to make it functional? 19:10:00 No. 19:10:03 You would need to add nothing. 19:10:05 It's functional. 19:10:22 impomatic: you need to add nothing but a debate amongst esolangers as to whether it's functional or not 19:10:24 impomatic: it's functions from stacks to stacks 19:11:31 -!- M0ny has joined. 19:11:32 ehird: http://filebin.ca/vcfm/haccordion.tar.gz 19:11:48 so this uses the ffi, ey? 19:12:13 it's mostly in C really 19:12:33 that's a shame 19:12:43 "mostly" is just two functions though 19:12:43 lament: keycodes.c... couldn't that just be in haskell? 19:12:46 it's not a very big program 19:13:01 keys.c could also be in haskell 19:13:03 What's Underlambda? Empty page on the wiki 19:13:03 ehird: it's an existing c source code that i modified 19:13:06 ah 19:13:21 yeah that's a x program :( 19:13:22 *c 19:13:25 {- #LANGUAGE ForeignFunctionInterface -} 19:13:27 that should be 19:13:30 {-# LANGUAGE ForeignFunctionInterface #-} 19:13:36 oh 19:14:25 impomatic: ais523's vaporware language 19:14:54 not vaporware on my computer 19:15:04 just an I-want-to-make-absolutely-sure-I-get-it-right lang 19:15:08 besides, vaporware is fun 19:15:10 if it's not on the wiki, it's vaporware 19:15:12 lament: 19:15:14 you can replace your makefile with 19:15:19 DO YOU HEAR oklopol? 19:15:22 wait no 19:15:23 well 19:15:24 * impomatic grabs a few books about functional programming 19:15:28 lament: the gcc calls are unneeded 19:15:30 if it is on the makefile, poeple will get upset when I change it arbitrarily every 5 minutes 19:15:32 you can give ghc c files 19:15:33 s/makefile/wiki/ 19:15:49 also it generates play_note, not ha 19:15:50 c 19:16:30 ais523: it's not like you would be the first :D 19:16:37 yes, but I like to have style about such things 19:17:10 lament it doesn't work :< 19:17:17 {- If you don't hear anything or no midi devices are found, here's how to use GarageBand's 19:17:17 synth: Open Audio-MIDI setup and make sure IAL is online. Then turn on garageband and 19:17:19 create a software instrument track. 19:17:21 oh. 19:18:13 wait 19:18:16 lament: where's audio midi setup 19:19:03 hmm 19:19:08 it isn't capturing my keystrokes 19:21:26 lament: how are you meant to use it :P 19:21:52 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 19:22:05 oerjan: i hear the red lines. 19:23:02 ehird: is IAL online? 19:23:12 IAL 19:23:12 ? 19:23:19 did you open Audio-MIDI setup? 19:23:32 where is that 19:23:34 :-| 19:23:35 it's in Applications/Utilities 19:23:35 AnMaster: ehird, All ur memes iz belongz to ur momma! <<< i'm so gonna use this 19:23:39 all the time 19:24:09 lament: okay it says 19:24:12 OUTPUT IS NOT SUPPORTED 19:24:16 ehird: huh 19:24:18 is this bad 19:24:20 oklopol: bah, selective hearing 19:24:30 ehird: it says that when you try to bring IAL online? 19:24:50 what is IAL and how do I try and bring it online 19:24:51 <_< 19:24:54 open audio-midi setup, click on midi, click on IAL 19:25:06 sorry 19:25:07 IAC 19:25:15 * oerjan keeps reading that as I Am Lawyer 19:25:17 not IAL 19:25:20 but IAC 19:25:25 okay i think it worked 19:25:28 yay 19:25:33 now 19:25:38 how do I use this software product of yours 19:25:43 just running and typing does naught 19:25:50 does it say 'played a note' 19:25:58 no 19:26:00 it just sits there. 19:26:03 um 19:26:14 that's when you run play_note? 19:26:19 it just sits there? 19:26:48 yes. 19:26:51 hrmrm 19:26:58 what could explain that? 19:27:10 the LHC ate your program 19:27:12 i've compiled it on two macs, works on both 19:27:24 most unusual 19:27:51 lament: maybe I am doing something wrong 19:27:54 [ehird:~/Desktop/haccordion 2] % ./play_note 19:27:55 a 19:27:56 g 19:27:57 -!- Mony has quit (Connection timed out). 19:27:58 s 19:28:00 goijfoisajflsdjkafg 19:28:03 mm 19:28:19 i dunno, put some printfs inside mainloop() in keys.c to make sure it is actually running 19:28:32 and then 19:28:33 um 19:28:46 since it doesn't say played a note, that means the callbacks aren't run 19:29:02 so CGEventSourceKeyState must not return anything useful? 19:29:09 hrm 19:29:23 maybe you need to be superuser or something? 19:29:31 does your password work for sudo? 19:29:44 sudo does nothing 19:30:22 in keys.c there's a line bool keystate = CGEventSourceKeyState(... 19:30:36 i guess that is always returning false 19:30:47 i have no idea why it would do that 19:30:58 can you check that? 19:32:11 okay 19:32:17 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 19:32:46 ... 19:32:49 lament: no output whatsoever 19:32:54 bool keystate = CGEventSourceKeyState(kCGEventSourceStateHIDSystemState, keyindex); 19:32:54 printf("%i\n",keystate); 19:32:57 [ehird:~/Desktop/haccordion 2] % make 19:32:58 gcc -c keys.c 19:33:00 ghc -framework ApplicationServices -fglasgow-exts --make play_note.hs keys.o keycodes.o 19:33:02 Linking play_note ... 19:33:04 [ehird:~/Desktop/haccordion 2] % ./play_note 19:33:06 a 19:33:08 b 19:33:10 mmm 19:33:11 barg? 19:33:16 barg? 19:33:26 barg! 19:33:32 barg :( 19:33:34 what 19:33:43 um 19:33:52 check that mainloop runs 19:34:04 but how would it not run?? 19:34:15 Yes it does: 19:34:16 % ./play_note 19:34:17 L O L!!! BUTTS!! 19:34:23 lament: 19:34:24 for (keyindex=0;keyindex { 19:34:27 That'll never be looping 19:34:30 For some reason 19:34:31 O_O 19:34:32 what the fuck 19:34:38 is wrong with your c compiler? :) 19:34:38 well its the only thing left 19:34:39 CODES_TO_TRACK == 0? 19:34:42 Deewiant: nope 19:34:42 #define CODES_TO_TRACK 50 // approximately equals what we need 19:34:48 um 19:34:59 well, uh, i dunno? 19:34:59 WAIT 19:35:00 lament: 19:35:01 bool keystate = CGEventSourceKeyState(kCGEventSourceStateHIDSystemState, keyindex); 19:35:01 -!- MizardX has quit (Nick collision from services.). 19:35:02 -!- MizardX- has joined. 19:35:03 this must be hanging 19:35:05 forever 19:35:06 ahhh 19:35:21 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 19:35:25 put a check before it 19:36:00 printf butt-debuggign confirms it 19:36:00 % ./play_note 19:36:01 into butt land i delve -> 19:36:05 CGEventSourceKeyState is hanging 19:36:12 well. 19:36:21 that certainly gives another reason to port it to SDL instead :) 19:36:32 apple docs say nothing about it hanging 19:37:06 lament: i'm on tiger 19:37:09 could that have something to do with it 19:37:25 -!- alex89ru has joined. 19:37:53 yes 19:38:02 fuck. 19:38:12 apple sucks! 19:38:16 -!- Corun_ has joined. 19:38:37 lament: what was it 19:39:12 um, i don't know 19:39:16 upgrade to leopard 19:39:25 i mean i know, it must be a bug in apple api 19:39:34 but that doesn't really help! 19:40:07 :< 19:40:09 :<<<<<<<<<<<<< 19:40:22 lament: it lets you play the computer keyboard like the right-hand accordion keyboard <<< beepiano 19:40:26 give me a dvd big enough to hold a burned leopard disk and I will lament :P 19:40:32 www.vjn.fi/s/beepiano.py 19:40:37 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:40:48 import winsound 19:40:49 Fail 19:40:55 hahaha 19:41:02 ok 19:41:02 mmkay 19:41:19 that's kinda beside the point, worked on xp => not fail. 19:41:53 if you can show me another lib with as nice an interface, i can change it. 19:43:19 thought so. 19:43:28 it's more that neither I nor lament can use your program 19:43:35 so pointing us to it is rather... pointless 19:43:46 but you can read the order of characters 19:44:25 wat 19:44:30 my point was i'd definitely use that keyboard layout for playing, in case i understood correctly what lament meant. 19:44:57 keys=['1','q','a','z2','w','s','x3','e','d','c4','r','f','v5','t','g','b6','y','h','n7','u','j','m8','i','k',',9','o','l','.0','p'] 19:45:20 this was the point; and also just that it was a program of mine if lament didn't know that; not that you could test it. 19:45:48 i'm disappointed at your lack of ability to read my mind once again. 19:46:25 oklopol: i knew you were going to say that 19:46:27 oklopol: that seems like the right layout 19:46:29 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:46:51 i read your mind oklopol, I just wanted to annoy you 19:46:54 lament: have you heard me play black diamond in it? i've linked it at least 3 times 19:47:20 oklopol: no 19:47:34 well sure link 19:47:36 * oklopol linkssss! 19:47:57 http://www.vjn.fi/s/black.mp3 19:48:15 (i play the piano better!) 19:48:42 hahahahahahahahah that's awesome 19:48:58 oklopol: so we wrote the exact same fucking program? 19:48:59 that was about 5 hours of practise at the whole concept, i would love to hear you do something with the same layout 19:49:12 sure, i'm learning a mozart piece 19:49:12 lament: sure. except mine uses an incredibly ugly gui. 19:49:18 oh, mine doesn't have a gui 19:49:22 right. 19:49:27 mine neither, really 19:49:32 lament: Garageband has a keyboard player, y'know 19:49:34 i can always use this as a gui http://www.thecipher.com/CBA_Csys_Spell.gif 19:49:38 ehird: yes. It's utter shit. 19:49:41 AnMaster: ehird, All ur memes iz belongz to ur momma! <<< i'm so gonna use this <-- :D 19:49:42 lament: tru dat 19:49:55 AnMaster: he was being ironicastic, i.e., he's gonna use it because it's so stupid 19:50:01 oklopol, what about replacing "ur momma" with "Chuck Norris" 19:50:04 that would work too 19:50:10 AnMaster: that's still 3. 19:50:18 chuck norris' momma? 19:50:21 maybe 19:50:27 oklopol, could work 19:50:47 ehird, also I was being ironic when I said it.... 19:51:01 AnMaster: yes, he was saying your joke failed and that was amusing 19:51:02 so he'd use it. 19:51:07 one should _never_ joke about chuck norris' momma. 19:51:12 what I'm trying to say is that he was laughing at you, 19:51:13 not with you. 19:51:19 i think. 19:51:23 :) 19:51:29 ehird, no he didn't 19:51:32 I checked scrollback 19:51:37 oerjan, good point 19:51:45 AnMaster: no, that's what his line meant 19:52:01 ehird, that is a matter of interpretation. 19:52:10 ehird: well, tbh i often consider AnMaster fairly hilarious; agreed, sometimes his unjokes are just ...too much. 19:52:16 oklopol: please say ehird is wrong. he is so annoying when he tells what other people mean. 19:52:23 oerjan: too late 19:52:23 :D 19:52:57 oerjan: well he was wrong, i'm just too polite to tell him that directly. 19:52:57 oklopol: your keyboard is so quie 19:52:58 t 19:53:05 also I was wrong on purpose 19:53:09 I can read oklopol's mind, remember 19:53:25 ehird: i think i taped the mic on the speaker or smth :D 19:59:11 oklopol, ehird: you are using audio communication? 19:59:19 ... no. 19:59:22 currently not 19:59:36 what then awere those lines about... 19:59:37 http://www.vjn.fi/s/black.mp3 19:59:41 were* 19:59:45 ah 20:00:23 cool 20:00:48 oklopol, the beepy melody sounds very good 20:01:10 I assume it is produced by the keyboard that you hear too 20:01:20 but what sort of keyboard? 20:01:21 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNLdTfwx5ZQ 20:01:28 umm? 20:01:28 * AnMaster checks 20:01:33 it's played with beepiano 20:01:42 "beepiano"? 20:01:48 a python program of mine 20:01:59 AnMaster: he presses keys and it plays noats 20:02:03 you use the keyboard as an accordion 20:02:03 on the computer keyboard 20:02:05 oklopol, cool, sounds hard to use though 20:02:15 yeah but oklopol is a machine 20:02:22 AnMaster: if i played piano that bad, i would *not* link it. 20:02:37 I had a program like that once... I used it solely for annoyance value though 20:02:43 because, you know, lament would kickban me. 20:02:51 oklopol, um? 20:02:58 lament plays piano. 20:02:59 obsessively. 20:03:06 day and night. Non-stop. 20:03:13 NSFW 20:03:18 well, oklopol as bad as what? 20:03:19 I take it to the bathroom with me. 20:03:34 the video? I'm still downloading it 20:03:37 lament is pianophillac 20:03:39 AnMaster: the mp3 20:03:41 he linked 20:03:41 ah 20:03:49 also, the video is just the metal song he was playing 20:03:52 oklopol: sorry can't listen to mp3 i'm at work :( 20:03:54 my piano playing consists of sitting down, making up something completely random, and playing it obsessiely until it turns into a nice short snippet of music, then leaving the piano 20:03:55 it doesn't really sound like it :P 20:03:57 rock? hm? 20:04:04 AnMaster: no, metal, we've been over this before :P 20:04:20 dammit I have to write my own bleeper now 20:04:21 (also sometimes is actually compose something that makes sense, point is i only play my own songs) 20:04:24 DAMN YOU ALL TO HELLHECKDAMN 20:04:35 in the mp3 it sounded more like something that could have been fast classic music 20:04:53 lament: if you don't know stratovarius, as a finn i must suggest you check out at least some of it. 20:04:55 some subgenres of metal draw from classical music, AnMaster 20:05:15 ehird, yes, I much prefer oklopol's recording over that youtube video 20:05:16 ok 20:05:29 though don't worry, song smith is worse ;P 20:05:30 AnMaster: yeah, the youtube video has an ELECTRIC GUITAR in. how awful 20:05:35 * ehird cabal install SDL 20:05:56 ehird, I don't like the sound of electric guitar no 20:06:08 oklopol's recording sounded like an electric guitar :P 20:06:12 lament: well, most of it is pretty basic metal stuff. probably not your style; then again, i'm not saying you should *not* listen to it ofc. 20:06:21 ehird, no it sounded like a PC speaker 20:07:04 the sound of an electric guitar is absolutely beautiful; of course hitting the low piano keys hard is even sexier. 20:07:15 you know octaves so low you make your ass vibrate. 20:07:20 *they 20:08:33 lament: maybe i should take that suggestion back, it's clear i should suggest you to listen to finnish metal as a finn, but i'm not sure i should use up my one suggestion point for stratovarius. 20:08:49 what about using a church organ? You could go even lower! 20:08:59 AnMaster: yes, but it's not nearly as manly. 20:09:10 the sound doesn't... umm... break? 20:09:21 uh? 20:09:29 you know low piano notes have distortion, in a sense. 20:09:35 and distortion is good. 20:09:46 that partly depends on the quality of the piano 20:09:56 and type 20:10:09 bad pianos are HARDCORE 20:10:32 ehird, I mean, compare an upright piano to a grand piano 20:10:34 i'm talking grand piano, everything else just tries to mimic it 20:10:43 or compare your mom to your mom. 20:10:46 oklopol, large or small grand piano? 20:10:48 you decide 20:10:54 AnMaster: the bigger the better, naturally 20:11:08 ehird, you seriously don't hear any difference between them?! 20:11:21 between your mom and your mom? 20:11:28 nope, they both moan the same. 20:11:31 ehird, between upright piano and grand piano 20:11:31 * ehird deports to #misinterpretation 20:11:32 BYE GUYYS 20:11:59 hah hah 20:12:00 okay let's see how you MAIN LOOP WITH SDL FUCK YEAH 20:12:01 i'm not sure i'd hear the difference between them, unless playing myself. 20:12:25 Waits indefinitely for the next available event. 20:12:26 SEEMS RITE 20:12:30 o 20:12:30 o 20:12:34 i'd prefer an infinite list of events 20:12:36 o k o 20:12:37 that's just more... pure 20:12:46 oklopol, well what if you were playing with a curtain that hid everything but the keys? would you still hear any difference 20:13:01 or with a blindfold, though that would be hard 20:13:20 ehird: you're rewriting my thing with sdl? 20:13:21 AnMaster: sure. 20:13:28 lament: i'm writing my own thing with sdl 20:13:38 ehird: hsdl or just sdl? 20:13:41 oklopol, you would *feel* the difference I bet, but *hear* it? 20:13:41 hsdl 20:13:52 ehird: was it difficult to get hsdl working on mac? 20:13:57 /usr/bin/ld: Undefined symbols: 20:13:57 _SDL_main 20:13:59 collect2: ld returned 1 exit status 20:14:01 Vwat 20:14:09 Suicide commit time lol 20:14:16 let's google on how you ACTUALLY USE THIS THING 20:14:19 ehird: -lSDLmain? 20:14:38 Deewiant: didn't do anything 20:14:50 put it before/after -lSDL 20:14:50 AnMaster: my playing is fairly aggressive, if you hit the keys hard, a grand piano will respond differently than an upright one. 20:15:11 Deewiant: % ghc --make bleep.hs 20:15:12 now what :-D 20:15:20 i usually hit them as hard as i can for maximum satisfaction 20:15:20 oklopol, yes, but part of that is in the feeling, and part in the sound 20:15:25 -!- ktne has joined. 20:15:30 hello 20:15:32 i don't believe in feeling 20:15:32 hi ktne 20:15:32 ehird: what do you mean now what :-P 20:15:39 Deewiant: no -lsdl 20:15:40 :P 20:15:41 oklopol, I mean tactile feeling 20:15:42 A beepiano is a piano made out of bees. Very painful to play. 20:15:46 does anyone know how optional parameters are implemented in compiled languages? 20:15:51 fizzie, :) 20:16:04 ehird: cabal knows to tell ghc to add those 20:16:10 i know 20:16:11 (well, on non-Windows systems anyway) 20:16:12 ktne, depends 20:16:15 so whydi get dis error 20:16:20 fizzie: in fact, actually it's from beep+piano, the p just fell out. 20:16:27 ktne, getopt 20:16:31 ktne, I assume compiler just resolves it at compile time to pass the extra args 20:16:34 alex89ru: uh, no. 20:16:35 he means to functions 20:16:40 in foo(int a = 2) or such 20:16:41 fizzie: quite an embarrassing misunderstanding, i'd expect more from you 20:16:44 AnMaster: what is the arity of a function that has optional parameters? required parameters + 1 extra parameter pointing to a struct? 20:17:00 ah lol 20:17:03 ktne, good question 20:17:04 my f ault sry, 20:17:09 fizzie: lately several beepianos have collapsed i hear 20:17:19 ktne, what is the arity if printf()? 20:17:43 (in C that is) 20:17:47 I think C++ compilers usually do it simply so that the calling function provides the default values of parameters if you don't specify them. 20:17:48 hmm 20:17:51 okay, enough irc for today, see you later... ally... gate... err 20:17:52 umm 20:17:52 -> 20:17:58 fizzie: i see.. 20:18:02 fizzie: great idea 20:18:14 ehird, that's a common question. Not sure if anyone has solved it but the channel logs should contain lots of references. 20:18:18 Dammit. 20:18:21 ktne, and what I said above....... 20:18:24 So the arity is the sum of normal and "optional" arguments; which in that sense aren't really optional at all, they just have default values provided. 20:18:26 ktne, I assume compiler just resolves it at compile time to pass the extra args 20:18:28 20:17 ktne, what is the arity if printf()? 20:18:28 20:18 (in C that is) 20:18:32 It just passes all args on the stack 20:18:32 AnMaster: i see, thansk 20:18:33 which is same as fizzie 20:18:37 ehird, indeed 20:18:37 and the va_arg functions pops them 20:18:40 if you mess up the printf vs args 20:18:43 you blow the stack 20:18:55 ehird, I know this, I just answered ktne's question with another question 20:18:58 if you read the contex 20:18:59 ah. 20:19:00 context* 20:20:08 ehird, you know, get him thinking for himself, "if you give a man a fish he has a food for one day, if you teach how to fish he has food for the rest of his life" 20:20:15 what about dynamic languages? 20:20:17 not sure if that is the correct form in English 20:20:49 ktne, I guess they just resolve it at runtime using metadata about the function? 20:20:57 is there any dynamic language that differentiates between two functions that have same name but different arity? 20:21:02 AnMaster: optional arguments are not the same as variable length list of arguments, necessarily 20:21:04 I have a feeling you could (with some difficulty) make a standards-conforming C++ implementation where (in case of functions with default values) the calling site provides just the number of arguments provided, and the function prologue handles the default values. 20:21:11 ktne, yes, erlang 20:21:18 ktne, no optional args though 20:21:32 AnMaster: that was the catch i was wondering about, they don't look compatible 20:21:45 io:format(A, B, C) and io:format(A, B) would be two different functions 20:21:59 i'm thinking about distinguishing between function using function name, arity, and number of return values 20:22:11 would that be sensible? 20:22:29 (ktne: actually it is io:format("string here: ~s integer: ~p~n", ["my string", 42]).) 20:22:50 i see, so it's two parameters 20:22:50 (thus passing a cons-style list with the arguments 20:22:58 right 20:22:59 ktne, well that specific function 20:23:18 ktne: probably, note prolog also does this and it uses arguments for return values 20:23:22 ktne, erlang use the notation: module:name/arity, so io:format/2 20:23:34 that's where erlang got it from too 20:23:43 oerjan, yes they are related in syntax 20:23:54 that's what i plan to, except that i also want to consider return values 20:23:59 Why would you ever have functions that take more than one argument? 20:24:02 io:format/2/1 20:24:03 erlang returns a value 20:24:07 i think mercury may do like prolog but with i/o declarations in addition 20:24:11 ktne, wow you mean more than one return value? cool 20:24:22 except 20:24:23 (statical) 20:24:28 that is basically returning a tuple 20:24:41 well, i'm thinking in a more low level thing 20:24:42 {someatom, someotheratom} 20:24:50 any language in which functions take more than one argument is clearly completely flawed. 20:24:53 i could return the multiple values directly 20:25:04 lament: :) 20:25:05 Lemmih: you made hSDL, right? :) how do I fix that error? any ideas? ehird: Install Linux. 20:25:08 ktne, well you can do that in erlang: 20:25:11 lament: the closure? 20:25:12 go to hell, library author. 20:25:16 lament: SHARE IN MY ANGER. 20:25:23 SDL's cross-platform! 20:25:23 ehird: hahaha 20:25:23 {MyVar, MyOtherVar} = my_func(), 20:25:24 AnMaster: yes but i want to avoid tuple allocation on return 20:25:33 ktne, erlang is based on pattern matching :) 20:25:53 ehird: first of all, note that hsdl has readme files about win32 and osx, and those are NOT written by lemmih. 20:25:55 although returning a tuple is sensible because you might just want to assign that tuple as a whole to some other variable 20:26:07 lament: okie? 20:26:16 ehird: so maybe you should bug those people instead 20:26:23 although returning a tuple is sensible because you might just want to assign that tuple as a whole to some other variable <-- or a list, or whatever 20:26:33 ehird: second, just do that part in C 20:26:34 ktne, and erlang isn't an esolang, so it is *sensible* 20:26:37 mostly 20:26:39 ok, done, i'm going to consider function name and arity, optional parameters if any will be sent using a hidden parameter, is this ok? 20:26:42 lament: the hackage package: 20:26:43 ehird: and third, see, this is why haskell sucks! 20:26:46 Copyright2004-2008, Lemmih 20:26:46 AuthorLemmih (lemmih@gmail.com) 20:26:48 MaintainerLemmih (lemmih@gmail.com) 20:26:55 ehird: how does that contradict anything i've said? 20:26:57 how could I possibly misinterpret that :D 20:27:01 ktne, what about using a list of tuples? 20:27:10 ktne: if you want the function to depend on number of return values then obviously the number of return values must be decided _before_ calling it, say by syntax 20:27:11 AnMaster: where a list of tuples? 20:27:39 ktne, like foo(arg, arg2, [{optionalargumentname, Value}, ...]) 20:27:44 erlang uses that way 20:27:51 but then I love erlang :) 20:27:54 AnMaster: that would be slow 20:27:55 maybe something such as python's tuple assignments 20:28:03 AnMaster: i want to avoid unnecesary list processing 20:28:08 ktne, well depends... 20:28:44 ktne, erlang seems to manage it fine, compiling to bytecode and then running under the vm 20:29:04 I believe it optimises stuff like constructing tuples too 20:29:09 /usr/bin/ld: warning -L: directory name (/sw/lib) does not exist 20:29:10 ehird: see, lemmih directed you to the same readme file as i 20:29:15 Just freaking hardcode for Fink. 20:29:16 Why don't you 20:29:26 ktne, after all it can just prepare one statically, it is single assignment, so no need to copy the stuff around 20:29:36 sure you need to parse it yes 20:29:53 i want to avoid parsing the list for arguments 20:30:03 ehird: i strongly suggest avoiding hsdl 20:30:05 oh well 20:30:16 ehird: that undefined reference to sdl_main is the same error i got yesterday on cygwin, by the way 20:30:18 although it would have the advantage of reducing memory usage if you have tons of optional parameters 20:30:28 lament: i'm gonna get thsi working. 20:30:29 no mattre what 20:30:34 ehird, what if this "Lemmih" doesn't own any OS X system he can test on? 20:30:34 /usr/bin/ld: multiple definitions of symbol _main 20:30:35 /opt/local/lib/libSDLmain.a(SDLMain.o) private external definition of _main in section (__TEXT,__text) 20:30:37 dist/build/Graphics/UI/SDL/General_hsc_make.o definition of _main in section (__TEXT,__text) 20:30:38 make a patch! 20:30:39 man what. 20:30:40 to help 20:30:48 AnMaster: what are you on about? 20:30:58 ehird, " Lemmih: you made hSDL, right? :) how do I fix that error? any ideas? ehird: Install Linux." 20:31:00 I suggest you take the resulting binaries, and change the first 3B to 3D 20:31:00 that 20:31:12 ais523, um? 20:31:25 AnMaster: yeah it was more saying "Install Linux" as a sarcastic flamebait response as opposed to "I don't know, I don't use OS X" 20:31:36 AnMaster: ok, this time you have missed a joke 20:32:11 ehird, after all, OS X has a non-traditional file system structure 20:32:27 AnMaster: what the heck has that got to do with anything 20:32:30 nothing 20:32:47 ehird, with things not being where a *bsd or linux developer expects them to be 20:32:48 AnMaster: that's probably not why you get the same undefined reference error as you do on cygwin 20:32:53 and the "framework stuff" then 20:33:07 lament, true, that is likely due to windows 20:33:09 call me when you're coherent, mon. 20:33:31 ehird, AWWWK! The pencil! ARGH! 20:34:50 3B or not 3B, that's the question 20:35:13 oerjan, Mr Jelly Beans! Spoon! 20:35:42 lament: ha, I think it's working 20:35:53 * oerjan does not get the reference 20:35:53 ehird: how did you fix it 20:35:59 wait, no it isn't working. 20:36:12 and google fails me 20:36:16 oerjan, the first one: no reference. The second: Discworld. 20:37:00 oerjan, oh and don't use " around... 20:37:13 since I'm pretty sure I didn't quote exactly 20:37:25 hm 20:37:32 it almost works. 20:37:47 * AnMaster noticed a lot of people here never noticed all the Discworld references he used throughout the year. 20:37:53 oerjan: 0xbfb830a3 20:38:02 I guess around 20%-30% were noticed 20:38:11 AAAAAAAAAAAAA 20:38:15 oerjan, ? 20:38:19 that's a genuine reference, I even wrote a C++ program to generate it 20:38:25 no references in C 20:38:25 ais523, what? 20:38:31 oh 20:38:32 right 20:38:38 well, to be precise it's a pointer to a reference, but I had to convert it to hex somehow 20:38:48 ais523, gdb? 20:38:53 printf 20:38:56 * oerjan swats ais523 -----### 20:39:01 * ais523 dodges 20:39:08 ais523, you could probably get the value using gdb 20:39:42 -!- Judofyr has quit ("raise Hand, 'wave'"). 20:39:58 ok, I don't get it 20:40:02 ais523: bfb830a3? 20:40:02 -!- ktne has left (?). 20:40:09 AnMaster: i'm only up to "Eric" 20:40:21 oerjan, oh I don't even know what book this was in 20:40:28 maybe Hogfather? 20:40:29 comex: well, to be precise it's a pointer to a reference, but I had to convert it to hex somehow 20:40:33 someone about the UU though 20:40:52 where Hex got infected by Busariness(sp? forget it...) 20:41:26 oh wait, ehird would suggest that I use "have" not "got" there 20:41:31 s/got/have/ 20:41:32 lament: 20:41:33 But we can fake it. In Core/Examples/MacOSX, I've included the Core/Examples/Test.hs example and a small Cabal definition to build it. Our actual 'main' is Test.sdl_main. We provide a Main.main, 'foreign export'ed as 'hs_main', which we will call from C. (We indirect so that the file Main_stub.o need not be rebuilt every time we modify module Test.) We provide our own 'SDL_main' in c_main.c, which initializes the Haskell runtime and calls 'hs_main', 20:41:38 running Test.main in an environment with SDL available. Finally, libSDLmain will find our C 'SDL_main' and call it, starting the whole process. 20:41:41 I vomited 20:41:53 ehird: yes, i've read that file 20:42:03 well, I'll try it 20:42:03 that was when i decided for sure to not bother with hsdl 20:42:10 AnMaster: i don't think "have" is correct there 20:42:16 oerjan, nor do I :) 20:42:18 it's not like using sdl is terribly hard 20:42:21 in C 20:42:25 AnMaster: probably you want "was" 20:42:29 you don't really win any points by doing everything in haskell 20:42:37 ais523, ouch 20:42:44 AnMaster: why ouch? 20:42:59 ais523, because I thought "got" was correct there 20:43:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 20:43:09 got is sort of correct there 20:43:17 lament: LIES 20:43:18 just it's a word you rarely hear adults using 20:43:41 oerjan, wait the first line also had a Discworld reference 20:43:48 "AWWWK!" -> Thud 20:44:15 Thud is one of the most recent ones 20:44:26 what about "seeed!" ? 20:44:32 but that one I didn't think about in advance 20:44:37 oerjan, hah 20:45:21 oerjan, well it is clear to me that the person ended up this way due to using sed for something non-trivial 20:45:32 like writing an RPN calculator 20:45:44 amazing clarity 20:45:46 so of course he would want awk 20:46:31 oerjan, "AWWWK!" is a cry for help in this case. 20:46:46 (Help! I'm stuck in a sed script!) 20:46:57 AWWWK! *THUD* sounds plausible 20:47:18 oerjan, no, the book is Thud, but Awwwk isn't related to that 20:47:45 AWWWK! *WHOOSH* even more so 20:47:46 the book is named after the table top game Thud that is quite important to the plot 20:47:51 Thud is somewhat like chess 20:48:00 oerjan, mhm.... 20:49:27 % ghc --make -no-hs-main bleep.hs main.c -o bleep 20:49:27 [1 of 1] Compiling Bleep ( bleep.hs, bleep.o ) 20:49:29 Linking bleep ... 20:49:31 lament: that was _easy_ 20:49:47 13 lines of trivial c in main.c, then just instead of main in haskell, do: 20:49:52 foreign export ccall sdl_main :: IO () 20:49:53 sdl_main :: IO () 20:50:20 i guess this program is bleeping annoying 20:50:59 ehird: can you send me it? 20:51:04 lament: yep 20:51:33 ehird, does it work on Linux? 20:51:39 yes 20:51:56 ehird, gave up haskell kernel? 20:51:57 lament: here you go: http://pastie.org/private/b4humfcteprzojcrqhcq 20:51:59 AnMaster: nope 20:52:02 :D 20:52:24 lament: you can rename sdl_main to sdlMain 20:52:27 and call it as sdlMain() in C 20:52:29 that's more haskelly 20:52:57 er well actually 20:52:59 I'm not sure that works :P 20:53:55 ehird: i don't get it 20:54:05 lament: SDL.h defines the macro "main" 20:54:08 to rewrite to SDL_main and stuff 20:54:11 first, how does #include "SDL/SDL.h" work? 20:54:16 err, how doesn't it 20:54:28 like this: main.c:1:21: SDL/SDL.h: No such file or directory 20:54:33 okay, well 20:54:40 where's your SDL includes? 20:54:40 shouldn't that be ? 20:54:44 that works too 20:54:44 :P 20:54:54 they're in /usr/include 20:55:53 lament: actually, in main.c 20:55:56 don't import bleep_stub.h 20:55:57 instead, do this: 20:56:34 extern void hs_init(int *, char ***); 20:56:34 extern void hs_add_root(void (*)(void)); 20:56:35 extern void __stginit_Bleep(void); 20:56:37 extern void sdlMain(void); 20:56:39 extern void hs_exit(void); 20:56:41 then you can compile them in one go 20:56:43 ugh 20:56:43 (before I had compiled them separately) 20:56:47 lament: it's ugly, but 20:56:49 you only have to write it once 20:56:55 in fact 20:56:58 you can make it even less changey 20:57:03 change Bleep to Main 20:57:05 it doesn't work anyway, i can't even get it to find SDL/SDL.h 20:57:08 and remove the module statement from bleep.hs 20:57:11 then you never have to touch the c file 20:57:23 lament: well, do 20:57:34 ghc --make -no-hs-main -L/usr/include main.c bleep.hs -o bleep 20:57:36 i guess 20:58:21 i think my ghc is fucking retarded 20:58:26 i don't think it accepts cygwin paths 20:58:47 then give it c paths :P 20:58:55 btw I was wrong, it can't be called main 20:58:56 oh well 20:58:59 call it SDLMain 20:59:15 * AnMaster leans back and notice no issue on Linux with such stuff. :D 20:59:15 afk 20:59:17 i am utterly confused 20:59:26 AnMaster: it's hsdl's fault 20:59:26 AnMaster: there isn't such an issue on any platform 20:59:29 lament: ok, what are you doing 20:59:32 except when you're using this broken library 20:59:43 ehird: i dunno, i can't get it to find SDL.h 20:59:48 paste the command + error 21:00:17 $ ghc --make -no-hs-main -L/usr/include bleep.hs main.c -o bleep 21:00:17 main.c:1:21: SDL/SDL.h: No such file or directory 21:00:53 can you make ghc output the list of header paths searched? 21:00:56 not sure 21:01:00 try -LC:\real\path 21:02:03 nope 21:02:20 -!- impomatic has quit ("http://impomatic.blogspot.com :-)"). 21:02:40 on the other hand "$ gcc -L/usr/include main.c" works 21:02:45 (but dies when linking of course) 21:03:08 now -that's- odd 21:03:11 lament: as a hack, change the include to 21:03:14 it's my ghc 21:03:17 #include "/usr/include/SDL/SDL.h" 21:03:18 i'm sure 21:03:20 ugly as fuck? yes. 21:03:21 but works? yes. 21:03:47 actually it doesn't, trying the c path instead 21:04:11 yep, now it found it 21:04:14 you think that was ugly 21:04:15 use ghc to generate C output then link it? 21:04:21 AnMaster: no... 21:04:25 stop making wild guesses all the time kthx 21:04:25 THIS is ugly: #include "C:\cygwin\usr\include\SDL\SDL.h" 21:04:34 ehird, you do that too 21:04:35 but it actually worked \o/ 21:04:41 AnMaster: uh huh 21:04:43 lament: \o/! 21:04:46 lament, don't you need to escape the \ ? 21:04:51 now what was all that other stuff i was supposed to do 21:05:01 nothing, it's fine 21:05:06 do you want an updated version though? 21:05:13 technically speaking, strings in a #include can be parsed however the compiler wants 21:05:18 they aren't ordinary C strings 21:05:28 ehird: yay, it actually workes 21:05:34 the only thing i had to do with add -XCPP 21:05:39 they don't even technically have to refer to filenames, although every compiler I've met does that 21:05:43 since otherwise i get 21:05:44 Graphics/UI/SDL/RWOps.hs:21:1: lexical error at character 'i' 21:05:48 lament: woot 21:06:33 ehird: but this is fucking ugly 21:06:48 lament: not really 21:06:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:06:50 you don't have to think about the c 21:06:52 since this program doesn't use much sdl, it seems just using C would be cleaner 21:06:53 it's static, forever 21:06:57 all you modify is your haskell 21:06:59 and just copy the c file around 21:07:16 it's static until you need to modify it 21:07:21 eg when it can't find SDL.h 21:07:32 that's when you realize you have a horrible bitrotten mess. 21:07:38 WFM without that hack 21:07:38 :P 21:07:50 WFM? 21:07:59 Windows Foundation Metaclasses 21:08:01 "Well Fuck Me"? 21:08:06 Works For me. 21:08:19 -!- M0ny has quit ("Quit"). 21:08:23 right, but it's supposed to be crossplatform 21:08:29 it should be 21:08:33 your system is fucked 21:08:33 well, it isn't 21:08:33 :P 21:08:36 clearly 21:08:43 the SDL itself is cross-platform 21:08:46 no, it doesn't work on your system because your ghc or something is broken 21:08:49 ais523: thanks cpt obv 21:08:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:09:17 ehird: i used windows, then i switched to linux, then i switched to mac 21:09:21 i use windows and mac at work 21:09:27 yes, and? 21:09:27 new oses come out all the time 21:09:30 fix your cygwin environment 21:09:33 new version of os x comes out, everything breaks 21:09:37 no 21:09:39 that code is perfectly fine 21:09:41 my point is, bitrot is a real problem 21:09:43 it's your cygwin environment 21:09:51 and the C file is 13 bloody lines, man 21:09:52 and everything that helps avoid bitrot is good 21:09:54 it's hard to bitrot 13 lines. 21:10:08 it's not about the size 21:10:15 it's about the number of possible points of failure 21:10:29 in this case, hsdl is an extra point of failure, and this hacky c file is another point of failure 21:10:56 i sent the files to you because they're simple and worked for me and you asked 21:11:00 i trust SDL not to bitrot 21:11:11 they don't work on your weird-ass broken cygwin environment 21:11:12 i don't really trust hsdl not to bitrot, especially since it already requires hacks to run 21:11:14 don't complain about that to me 21:11:29 it's not weird-ass broken, it's a regular cygwin environment 21:11:40 except your ghc is broken 21:12:04 it's a standard install of ghc for windows 21:12:08 ais523: thanks cpt obv <-- you would have been a lot nastier towards me 21:12:18 AnMaster: no I would not have 21:12:23 stop whining about how horrible I am to you all the time 21:12:28 *sob* 21:12:32 lament: mixing cygwin + non-cygwin always fails 21:12:46 ok, this _is_ odd... 21:12:46 KeyDown (Keysym {symKey = SDLK_a, symModifiers = [], symUnicode = '\NUL'}) 21:12:50 why on earth is symUnicode nul 21:15:14 lament: link to haccordion? I lost the source 21:15:27 http://filebin.ca/vcfm/haccordion.tar.gz 21:15:30 if it's still there 21:15:54 does it use haskore? 21:16:21 no, it uses hmidi 21:16:27 haskore looks cooler :-P 21:16:32 but hmidi is better. 21:16:40 why 21:17:29 i don't even know if haskore has a midi interface 21:17:39 but it seems a huge library designed for something completely different from what i need 21:17:42 -!- alex89ru has quit ("Verlassend"). 21:18:05 http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskore 21:18:09 you just compose chords and play them as midi 21:18:47 i don't need to compose any chords. Look at play_note.hs. 21:18:58 ehird, what about playing style? attack? 21:19:07 lament: haskore doesn't require you to create a garageband instrument? 21:19:08 :P 21:19:23 ehird: that's a -feature- 21:19:28 not a garageband instrument 21:19:34 haccordion is a midi device 21:19:39 you connect it to any midi synth 21:19:44 oh, that's why it didn't work then 21:19:46 that's a good thing (tm) 21:20:01 i could connect it to my external midi keyboard for example 21:20:04 i thought you typed into the program and it played 21:20:13 you type into the program, it sends midi events 21:20:22 it doesn't play anything 21:20:44 you didn't make that clear 21:21:23 it should be pretty obvious from the requirement to open garageband and create a midi track :) 21:21:44 lament: how do I set that midi track to the program 21:22:21 turn on IAC 21:22:23 IAC is like a loopback 21:22:30 how do I use it after doing that 21:22:49 it should just work after that, because garageband seems to take all midi input 21:23:14 1 midi inputs detected, it says 21:23:17 yes 21:23:17 you didn't make that clear <-- why? 21:23:18 so it;'s the keyboard that's the problem 21:23:21 yes 21:23:22 I mean we all have midi set up 21:23:25 so it would just work 21:23:41 you know nothing about what you're talking, AnMaster. please stop. 21:23:44 using your midi hardware :) 21:24:25 err 21:24:31 lament when trying that app 21:24:37 keys.c:2:53: error: ApplicationServices/ApplicationServices.h: No such file or directory 21:24:39 it's os x only. 21:24:40 ? 21:24:41 like he said. 21:24:43 oh crap 21:24:53 * AnMaster rm -rfs it 21:25:03 what about wxwidgets 21:25:10 wow you're an idiot. 21:25:27 * oerjan watches AnMaster accidentally press return after ~ 21:25:40 AnMaster: does wx provide a way to monitor keyup/keydown events? 21:25:48 lament, SDL then 21:25:52 ... 21:25:54 nice 21:25:54 HE TRIED SDL 21:25:57 HAVE YOU BEEN LISTENING?!?!?! 21:26:01 ehird, yes 21:26:04 evidently not 21:26:07 AnMaster: now you're only like three hours behind the conversation :) 21:26:07 and I can't see the issue with SDL here 21:26:13 since I know sdl works for that 21:26:16 almost catching up 21:26:18 I used sdl myself for that 21:26:25 yes 21:26:27 oh just shut up 21:26:28 i will probably do that too 21:26:30 (use sdl) 21:26:41 lament, I admit it was from C, not haskell 21:26:43 so *shrug* 21:26:43 lament: but BITROT :-P 21:26:54 ehird: i trust SDL more than apple api 21:26:58 oh OS X == bitrot 21:26:59 indeed 21:27:02 especially since apple api doesn't work for you! 21:27:10 lament, exactly 21:27:12 SDL is not gonna bitrot any time soon 21:27:14 AnMaster: do you think you could just jump off a cliff? that'd help this conversation immensely. thanks x 21:27:22 brb. 21:28:33 ehird, permission denied 21:29:46 ENOCLIFF 21:30:02 :) 21:40:28 i need some music 21:40:42 listen to Marvin Gaye "What's going on" 21:40:47 i don't know what that is, never heard it 21:41:35 sounds pretty gay 21:42:24 fine then, listen to mozart - piano concerto no. 21 - andante 21:43:08 no 21:43:44 fine then, go fuck yourself with a toilet plunger 21:44:07 yes please 21:44:20 please, the atmosphere in here is deteriorating 22:06:11 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:10:19 back 22:10:22 hi lament 22:10:32 ais523: wah 22:10:48 lament: want the updatd main.c? 22:11:55 lament: http://pastie.org/private/nks52uzi3kpvb22vqxzba 22:12:01 it'll work as long as it can find sdl/sdl.h 22:12:04 so, just use -L or w/e 22:12:05 err 22:12:06 -I 22:12:13 -Ic:\path\to\include 22:17:44 lament: hmidi works 22:17:46 as i'm using i 22:17:47 t 22:24:41 lament: you there? 22:28:32 lament: does your program support all keys or just alfabettycal? 22:29:40 hmm, how does it handle qwerty? it just seems to use the key codes 22:29:48 ah, positionForKeyCode? 22:29:49 ugly 22:30:52 yes 22:30:54 you mean pretty 22:31:01 since i'm using dvorak and it still works 22:31:10 wait, how does it work on both? 22:31:21 because scan code is based on location on the keyboard 22:31:24 yep 22:31:30 not on the keycap 22:31:32 ah 22:31:37 well now I gotsa figure out how to get the scancode from sdl 22:32:17 hmm, it has .scancode 22:32:27 but it asys it's hardware-specific 22:32:27 :< 22:32:34 and hsdl doesn't seem to have it 22:32:42 h mhm 22:34:12 hrrm 22:34:44 yeah 22:34:50 it ought to be hardware specific, makes sense :\ 22:35:33 but yeah, wonder how I get to that 22:36:04 -!- oerjan has quit ("What about circular keyboards?"). 22:36:21 fuck circular keyboards 22:36:39 well, at least if it's a mac you probably have a standard mac keyboard 22:36:46 so we need to figure out the most useful language for which the halting problem is solvable 22:36:50 that's quite an assumption, ais523 22:36:55 bsmntbombdood: total FP langs 22:36:58 ehird: but macs are designed for mac hardware 22:37:08 so the programs you write for them can be too 22:37:08 ais523: not in the realm of keyboards and mice. stop trolling please 22:37:36 ehird: is that the first time you'v accused me of trolling? 22:37:41 a momentous occasion, if so 22:37:46 I don't think so 22:37:50 bsmntbombdood: Haskell, with the condition that every program terminates automatically after a thousand years. 22:37:53 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit. 22:38:02 I don't think that's for turing machines lament 22:38:03 :P 22:38:05 clearly bsmntbombdood didn't like that idea... 22:38:10 oh, wait 22:38:11 ha 22:38:24 ehird: he didn't say for turing machines. 22:38:27 what about Haskell running on a typical desktop supercomputer? 22:38:28 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 22:38:36 the halting problem's soluble then, as you have infinite memory 22:38:37 typical, desktop, supercomputer 22:38:38 *finite memory 22:38:40 "VWAT" 22:38:49 ehird: there has to be one, surely? 22:38:56 "soluble"? 22:39:26 sorry, all this is evidence that it's late and I should go home 22:39:28 ais523: a typical desktop supercomputer without any peripherals! 22:39:46 he said "the most useful" 22:39:55 an environment without internet access doesn't qualify! 22:40:01 well, a desktop supercomputer is more useful than a mainframe supercomputer 22:40:10 and more useful than a desktop ordinary computer 22:40:11 he said the most useful 22:40:15 not just more useful 22:40:19 it has to be provably the best 22:40:21 i.e. Haskell 22:40:27 and being typical is useful, as it helps you find other people who know how to use it on IRC 22:40:37 haskell is pretty typical. 22:40:52 it has sdl bindings, just like any other language. 22:41:15 too bad they rely on a nasty hack to work. 22:42:35 no 22:42:36 only on OS X 22:42:40 oother platforms don't have that sdlmain shit 22:43:11 I should go home, anyway 22:43:12 -!- ais523 has quit. 22:43:18 ehird: OS X and Windows. 22:43:25 well, fine 22:43:26 "other platforms" are Linux in this case. 22:43:27 but that hack is only 13 lines 22:43:28 and it's trivial 22:51:24 -!- Corun_ has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:02:49 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 23:06:57 guys, who wants to chip into my fund to buy a lisp machine. I'll give everyone shell access to it. 23:10:32 Lithp mathineth have nethworking? 23:10:36 :P 23:11:28 He didn't say anything about networking 23:12:11 GregorR: I believe so, if not, I can hook another machine up to it as a proxy. 23:12:12 Deewiant: *g* 23:15:00 but it would be so awesome./ 23:15:35 Just get the keyboard, that's 50% of the awesome 23:15:44 More like 30% 23:15:49 The actual lisp system is the rest. 23:15:57 Then putting it online is 1000000% more. 23:15:58 I value the keyboard higher than that :-P 23:16:01 Especially an HTTP server. 23:16:08 I'd run helloiamalispmachine.com 23:17:24 also, I have a Symbolics 3640 (l-machine, TTL logic, some bit-slice) and a XL1200 (i-machine, "Ivory" custom cpu). Both run and are capable of working on the network. 23:17:24 so yep 23:17:26 network 23:35:13 so 23:35:22 have i mentioned i'm a microsoft fan now 23:35:27 ... 23:35:28 why 23:35:51 microsoft songsmith has a feature where you can sing a song, and it generates the backgrounds automatically 23:36:00 umm that's the whole point of songsmith 23:36:03 retard for brains 23:36:04 :P 23:36:25 mmkay, i thought it was a garageband replica. 23:36:33 but that's kinda beside the point, holy shit that's cool 23:36:45 it's also worthless 23:36:47 it's shite :D 23:36:58 shite as in how? 23:37:04 as in... it works terribly 23:37:08 i've heard three songs 23:37:25 one failed, two were just fine 23:37:38 i don't think a human could do better 23:37:39 oklopol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8GIwFkIuP8 23:39:30 and that's bad? 23:39:43 dude are you blind and deaf 23:39:48 that advert is awful personified 23:40:00 sounds absolutely perfect to me, which chord sounds bad exactly? 23:40:06 i sense sarcasm 23:40:10 yeah the advert is stupid 23:40:11 so? 23:40:19 that's kinda beside the point 23:40:22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7qyjLuWVU8 23:40:22 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:40:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:41:16 i'd just heard existing songs backgrounded by it, in britney's toxic it actually failed pretty badly. 23:41:41 oklopol: try this 23:41:41 http://music.metafilter.com/2943/Runnin-With-The-Songsmith 23:42:45 yeah that fails too 23:43:11 the verse that is, the chords fit the screams pretty well though 23:43:50 but who cares if it can't do songs where the singer sounds like a tractor stuck in mud 23:44:13 i doubt i could make good backgrounds for that, without listening to the original first 23:44:50 i can't believe people don't see how great that is 23:45:32 dude you're fucking deaf 23:45:36 lament: oklopol likes songsmith 23:45:42 kick, ban 23:45:46 8| 23:46:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22AWPW5s4EA <<< example of a perfect fit 23:46:00 kick whom? ban whom? 23:46:08 lament: me, i like songsmith 23:46:15 in fact, i consider it absolutely amazing. 23:46:27 but songsmith is by microsoft research 23:46:31 and haskell is by microsoft research 23:46:39 guilt by association! oh noes! 23:46:40 lament: yeah but it's songsmith 23:46:46 ehird: you like haskell! 23:46:50 okay, it fails further down the road. 23:46:52 songsmith, man 23:46:53 therefore you like songsmith! 23:46:57 kick, ban 23:47:00 but still, not bad. 23:47:07 lament: haskell existed before MS research sucked up spj 23:47:25 they probably got songsmith from somewhere too 23:47:26 lament: please give sensical comments, as i'm thinking you might actually agree with me, not being a retard. 23:47:40 lament: nope 23:47:43 team at MS research 23:47:43 oklopol: i've never seen any songsmith videos 23:47:45 I read their freaking forums 23:47:48 oklopol: and i'm at work so i can't watch them 23:47:54 (right now) 23:48:03 lament: they're awful. bastardizing music. kickban oklopol quick >:| 23:48:06 ehird: you read songsmith forums? 23:48:12 i did when I found out about it 23:48:15 lament: please comment on it when you can, you're the only human i know who knows both computers and music 23:48:25 ehird: i think i should get an ircop to ban you from the network! 23:48:29 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBajcshfTTM 23:48:41 oklopol: i think it's awesome! 23:48:46 but i still haven't seen any videos 23:50:00 lament: well, all you really need to know is it makes backgrounds given just the song track - and it actually does it well in some cases. 23:50:10 amazing 23:50:22 lament you like classical 23:50:25 you cannot possibly like songsmith 23:50:29 i mean as well as an average songmaker. 23:50:45 ehird: at least i don't read their forums, fanboi! 23:50:50 it comes up with the same kinda stuff i would come up with, if i just started backing up a singer. 23:50:54 lol 23:51:32 lament: please leave work so you can listen and comment. 23:51:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-BZfFakpzc 23:53:02 wow 23:53:24 i don't remember ever being this amazed at a program 23:54:14 oklopol i so hope you're drunk or something 23:54:15 :D 23:55:00 i hope you're being annoying just to be annoying 23:55:09 :P 23:55:25 oklopol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypycpKQxXR0&feature=PlayList&p=33C9533F899548DD&playnext=1&index=3 23:57:36 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1e_h1OJfS4 Wow, it actually improves oasis 23:57:53 oh my god, transposition. 23:58:17 amazing how well it actually understands western song structure 23:58:30 understands = was hardcoded in :P 23:58:55 that's possible too, and that might be simpler to do than i think, just haven't heard anyone do it before. 23:59:05 similar products exist. 23:59:15 as good? 23:59:42 would love to hear 23:59:43 better 23:59:44 :P 23:59:46 link 23:59:46 but they cost a lot. 23:59:50 band in a box, is one 23:59:53 songsmith is based on it 2009-02-06: 00:00:13 oklopol: you can't claim this is any good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BZk6aZp9xE&feature=related 00:01:46 according to my short internet search it needs you to give the chords yourself 00:01:53 which is the nontrivial part 00:01:54 really? 00:01:56 i don't think so 00:03:02 well. i base this on two random links. 00:05:54 i wish i used something like facebook so i could join an i-love-microsoft group or something 00:06:18 they're actually recruiting people in our uni, maybe i should join them, i mean, they're obviously pretty fucking awesome 00:06:58 but, in all seriousness, please investigate band in a box, i need to know whether this is in fact an old concept. 00:07:47 oklopol: there are two microsoft companies 00:07:57 Microsoft, the corporate drone of shitpilation 00:08:00 and microsoft research 00:08:02 which has haskell and stuff 00:08:05 (and songsmith) 00:08:12 you will find getting a job at the latter significantly harder. 00:08:20 ah 00:08:31 so there are two microsofts 00:08:39 the cool one, and one that made vista 00:08:41 *and the 00:08:47 Pretty much :P 00:09:03 also this http://www.vjn.fi/s/black.mp3 is still amazing 00:09:09 make one that outputs to a wav 00:09:26 -!- kwertii has joined. 00:09:43 actually now that i think of it, i've heard "microsoft research" whenever i've thought "wow microsoft may suck at operating systems, but god they can cool and weird stuff". 00:09:57 hmm 00:10:04 yeah maybe cool should indeed be a verb there 00:10:07 -!- kwertii has quit (Client Quit). 00:10:13 i'm not sure where my verbs keep dropping 00:10:16 o 00:10:17 o 00:10:18 -!- kwertii has joined. 00:11:04 i have on my linuxer this other program that was kinda like that but i made the sine waves myself straight into dsp 00:11:32 but my linuxer is under a pile of random atm 00:11:45 anyway. gotta go sleep 00:11:53 you never sleep 00:11:57 -!- Asztal has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:12:01 i wish i had a quit message so i could praise microsoft in it 00:12:24 (praising microsoft research just doesn't sound right :|) 00:12:45 i mean i wish i quitted when i left 00:12:54 and actually in fact i sometimes kinda do sleep 00:13:04 well don't 00:13:09 in all truthishness i usually sleep two times a day. 00:13:25 i'm starting my uberman in phases, i guess. 00:13:59 -!- Asztal has joined. 00:14:04 ----> 00:14:04 hi Asztal 00:14:08 bye oklopol 00:22:20 Asztal: how chunky is the bacon 00:28:50 like a bacony loaf of bread 00:28:59 wowzy 01:11:27 oi 01:11:36 ciao cose 01:15:15 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:13:08 -!- seveninchbread has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:10:05 -!- comexk has joined. 04:12:06 -!- comex has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:12:06 -!- Leonidas has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:12:06 -!- pikhq has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:13:44 -!- Leonidas has joined. 04:13:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:29:29 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:30:09 -!- MizardX has joined. 04:34:52 -!- comexk has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:34:57 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:35:05 -!- comex has joined. 04:35:51 -!- ehird has joined. 05:56:47 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 06:09:47 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:17:05 ehird 07:55:06 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:55:27 -!- MizardX has joined. 07:59:40 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:59:43 -!- MizardX- has joined. 07:59:45 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:50 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 08:08:34 -!- kwertii_ has joined. 08:22:30 -!- kwertii has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:42:28 -!- kwertii_ has quit ("bye"). 09:05:35 -!- DarkPants has joined. 09:16:23 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:53:53 -!- DarkPants has quit ("Client Excited"). 12:01:13 -!- Metcalf has joined. 12:26:50 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:27:39 * pikhq does a spit take. 12:27:49 C++09 will have lambda. 12:29:06 :o 12:29:11 Wait 12:29:17 I forgot that C is terrible 12:29:22 So it won't help 12:48:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:49:52 -!- jix has joined. 13:46:05 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:53:56 Slereah2, C++ is terrible. Not C 13:54:00 you confused the two 14:07:33 05:53:56 Slereah2, C++ is terrible. Not C 14:07:33 05:54:00 you confused the two 14:07:49 well I didn't say C was good. but it isn't terrible. 14:07:54 I [don't] like how AnMaster veils his dogmatic positions by phrasing them as "jokes". 14:08:04 (And if they're pointed out as not funny, says that was intentional.) 14:08:22 23:17:05 ehird 14:08:23 lament 14:08:24 ehird, I thought you thought C++ was worse than C too? 14:08:33 AnMaster: That isn't what you said. 14:08:36 also, it wasn't a joke... Why do you think it was 14:08:37 ? 14:08:38 You said: "C++ is terrible. Not C" 14:08:43 Slereah didn't confuse the two. 14:09:05 ehird, well " C++09 will have lambda. I forgot that C is terrible Slereah2, C++ is terrible. Not C you confused the two" 14:09:10 that makes total sense to me 14:09:18 no, it's assuming that he doesn't hate C too 14:09:20 he does. 14:09:35 if you hate C for the reasons he does, you hate C++ too 14:12:39 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:56:09 23:48:07 pfft 14:56:09 23:48:18 i thought this chan was about philosofy 14:56:11 23:48:25 :p 14:56:17 [ shortly after 23:44:16 --- topic: set to 'Read the principia discordia!' by encoded ] 14:56:22 { 2006-11-25 } 14:57:17 23:54:53 PRIVMSG bsmntbombdood i wanna feel your body breaking... wanna feel your body breaking... and shaking... and left in the cold... 14:57:30 23:59:36 /me strips 15:00:55 GregorR: you should revive egobot :P 15:03:49 So should your FACE. 15:04:34 GregorR: :( 15:05:24 -!- MizardX has quit ("reboot"). 15:10:00 -!- MizardX has joined. 15:18:43 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlCWo1qdTdE&feature=related 15:34:15 ehird, where was that? 15:34:24 2006-11-25. 15:34:34 #esoteric? 15:34:40 Yes. 15:34:42 uhu 15:34:49 AnMaster: do you know what esoteric means? 15:34:53 yes I do 15:34:56 I assume you mean the encoded guy 15:34:57 not egobot 15:35:12 anyway, to explain why we get those guys: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esotericism 15:35:19 and I know encoded from other channels... He is strange 15:35:25 Define strange 15:35:48 ehird, changing nick between encoded/decoded and when he is "encoded" he claims he is a bot 15:36:03 and a human as "decoded" 15:36:12 Tell him to lay off the lsd. 15:36:17 haha 15:36:31 haven't seen him for a few months though 15:36:54 hmm, before he came in then he's been before 15:37:03 (with others filtered out): 15:37:04 05.10.29:02:06:28 hi 15:37:05 05.10.29:02:21:27 not me 15:37:07 05.10.29:02:21:34 im high as a cloud 15:37:09 05.10.29:02:23:08 thats relative, the moon aint high, its just orbting in respect to the earths plain 15:37:15 05.10.29:18:08:19 whats esoteric programming? 15:37:15 05.10.29:18:14:34 no 15:37:17 05.10.29:18:18:23 yes c++ 15:37:19 05.10.29:18:19:15 this doesnt explain anything 15:37:21 05.10.29:18:21:38 great.. 15:37:23 05.10.29:18:21:40 explaint it to 15:37:25 05.10.29:18:21:43 me 15:37:27 05.10.29:18:35:21 can i get a brainfuck compiler? 15:37:29 05.10.29:18:36:43 what about windoze? 15:37:31 05.10.29:18:39:50 hmm.. nobody can or should use this for any real world purpose 15:37:33 [snip] 15:37:35 05.10.29:18:59:01 soo.. why are you ppl here? supporting a language that has no use? 15:37:37 LOL 15:37:39 okay, forget the previous ones 15:37:41 this is gold: 15:37:43 05.10.29:19:03:06 hmm.. you need to develop a code that alters your thought just by looking at it, not just anoy you. 15:37:46 05.10.29:19:03:22 like subliminal messeges or something 15:37:48 05.10.29:19:03:30 thats brainfuck 15:37:50 05.10.29:19:14:10 right... 15:37:52 05.10.29:19:14:23 maybe whats THEY want you to belive 15:37:54 05.10.29:19:14:48 THEY are the (not so secret) world goverment 15:37:56 05.10.29:19:16:03 hm... maybe you HAVE been looking at BF for 2 long... 15:38:13 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric. THEY are the (not so secret) world goverment. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page.. 15:40:11 hah 15:40:30 SO GUYS LET'S START SOME WARS AND KILL SOME BABIES AND HIDE OCCULT KNOWLEDGE ?? 15:40:44 CLOG: DON'T LOG THAT PLEASE THANKs 15:41:55 gmail's new upgrade is nice 15:42:00 servers are a bit slow though :( 15:43:57 although I don't know how people use the new default gmail theme, it's awful, the older one is way better 15:44:08 the new one is just... dull, gray and hard to read 15:45:22 I'm tempted to add "like your FACE" since it would fit so well in the context. 15:45:43 yeah my face is hard to read indeed 15:47:32 although I don't know how people use the new default gmail theme, it's awful, the older one is way better <-- hey that is my comment! 15:47:38 don't steal it 15:47:48 you are the one who like new flashy windows and such 15:48:04 I'm the one who prefers the old ways 15:48:06 uhh, that's got absolutely nothing to do with gmail picking a shitty new colour scheme 15:48:20 please just fuck off instead of trying to come out on top in your tastes in future. 15:49:51 -!- leeguy92 has joined. 15:50:19 AnMaster: I like design that is aesthetically pleasing and aids usability. That has nothing to do with liking flashy swirly animations and technicolour amazingities. And certainly not to do with liking gmail's new awful whitewashed gray deisgn 15:50:23 oh, hi leeguy92 15:50:25 me and AnMaster are arguing. 15:50:29 ignore us. 15:50:30 hi 15:50:33 u know me? 15:50:38 nope. 15:50:44 ah, ok. 15:50:46 we greet everyone here :) 15:50:56 tis a good thing that you do 15:50:58 methinks 15:51:17 actually we're considering replacing it with a hit from oerjan's fly swatter. Time constraints, costs, global recession and all that. 15:51:38 indeed 15:51:44 but you would have to pay for the swatter, greetings are for free 15:51:53 no, oerjan has the swatter. 15:51:57 ah 15:52:04 admittedly he uses it whenever the heck he wants, but we're looking at a lucrative licensing deal at the moment 15:52:05 what if it needs repairing? 15:52:14 that is impossible. 15:52:14 maintenance costs 15:52:16 and the frying pan 15:52:21 it is ominipotent and avoids getting damaged. 15:52:29 so if it needs repainting we just use the frying pan instead 15:52:30 ah 15:52:52 if there ARE costs we cannot cover, people being hit by the swatter will have to pay for the priviledge 15:52:53 ehird, what? The fly swatter is ominipotent? 15:53:00 AnMaster: didn't you kknow? 15:53:05 no I didn't 15:53:09 pfft. 15:54:12 ,[>,] i discovered brainfuck can be surprisingly compact 15:54:32 indeed 15:54:35 * leeguy92 is a noob 15:54:36 only for simple stuff, though 15:55:07 hmm......maybe i should try building that processor. 15:55:19 i was gonna do it out of ttl chips 15:55:40 what processor? 15:55:47 my brainfuck processor 15:55:50 just an idea 15:55:57 seems like it would be pretty simple 15:56:21 think that's been planned before 15:56:34 hasn't bf cpu even been done? Not just planned 15:56:41 dammit! hobos nicking my ideas 15:56:49 AnMaster: i think so 15:56:49 again! 15:56:56 leeguy92: we're all hobos. i am very offended. 15:57:05 * AnMaster googles define:hobo 15:57:08 ehird: so you should be 15:57:11 ;) 15:57:13 AnMaster: o_o 15:57:17 how can you not know what a hobo is 15:57:26 ehird, you forgot I'm not a native speaker... 15:57:30 yeah but... XD 15:57:47 tramp? 15:57:50 mhm 15:59:43 good lord, gmail is still officially beta 16:00:04 they should launch Google Beta 16:00:11 google used to be beta 16:00:12 (in alpha version of course) 16:00:13 until like 2000 16:00:23 ehird, I mean a service called Google Beta 16:00:27 not sure what it would do 16:00:27 i know 16:00:33 it'd beta. duh 16:00:49 just pure betaness? 16:00:53 (when did you stop beating your wife? when I stopped using google beta!) 16:00:57 *rimshot* 16:07:24 ehird, a qick python question, how do I dump an object? I tried print and all I got was "" 16:07:38 ... I told you this weeks ago. 16:07:46 well that was for modules iirc? 16:07:51 oh is it same way? 16:07:52 No, it works on any object. 16:07:59 right, didn't know. thanks 16:08:21 i eat libertarians for breakfast 16:08:29 { 2005-10-30 } 16:08:41 .__dict__ wasn't it? hm 16:08:45 AnMaster: no. 16:08:47 it was a function. 16:08:48 grep for 'def ' 16:08:51 oh 16:08:52 in the logs 16:08:53 right 16:10:12 hm 16:11:58 23:29:52 "Type /join #2,000" 16:11:58 23:30:13 --- part: duerig left #esoteric 16:12:09 ehird, this one? http://rafb.net/p/Sltlv394.html 16:12:15 because it just prints "" 16:12:28 AnMaster: Then the object cannot be inspected. 16:12:34 Because it's an opaque C object. 16:12:36 AnMaster: try: 16:12:39 dir(obj) 16:12:45 that gives you a list, might help 16:12:50 hm 16:13:09 that helped a bit :) 16:13:17 AnMaster: also: 16:13:26 dict((k,getattr(o,k)) for k in dir(obj)) 16:13:28 er 16:13:32 dict((k,getattr(obj,k)) for k in dir(obj)) 16:14:02 um, is that perl-like syntax with the " if " but for for? 16:14:09 no. 16:14:12 it's a list comprehension. 16:14:16 ah 16:14:29 so if you have a "opaque C object", is there any way to make it a bit more transparent? 16:14:40 dict((k,getattr(obj,k)) for k in dir(obj)) 16:14:43 like implementing something on the C side 16:14:48 no. 16:14:53 well, maybe. but no 16:14:59 hm ok 16:15:01 thanks 16:15:27 AttributeError: attribute 'Animated' of 'Crossfire.Object' objects is not readable 16:15:28 nice 16:16:53 why are you using UpperCamelCase 16:16:56 you're not meant to in python 16:17:02 it should be crossfire.Object, and obj.animated 16:17:13 ehird, I'm not. Whoever wrote this was 16:17:22 kill them :p 16:17:26 you know, more than one person working on a project? 16:17:29 * AnMaster checks with svn blame 16:18:25 (which fails when the commit was some commit to upgrade to a more modern syntax for something...) 16:23:02 ehird, hm "object" is a key word or something? I notice this python code use it as a variable name, but my editor syntax highlight it differently 16:23:16 Yes. object is the name of the base class. 16:23:18 class foo(object):. 16:23:23 Don't call classes object. 16:23:25 right, so stupid code. 16:23:29 classes names are CamelCase. 16:23:32 AnMaster: call it GameObject or sth 16:23:32 should use obj 16:23:36 a 16:23:36 h 16:23:38 yes 16:23:53 module.names.like_this, funcs_and_vars, ClassNames. 16:23:54 ehird, it is an instance of a inventory object 16:23:59 AnMaster: call it inv. 16:24:15 ehird, again, not my code and this is for a bug fix in stable branch, will do renaming in trunk. 16:24:20 but not in the stable branch 16:25:53 hm python uses short circuit evaluation right? I mean something like: if obj and not obj.unpaid: would hopefully work... 16:26:08 * AnMaster tests 16:26:17 Yes. 16:26:25 AnMaster: rename that to inv, if it's a local var that won't hurta 16:26:29 and obj is a stupid name 16:26:50 ehird, inv is the name of the inventory container object in the code already :P 16:26:57 This code sucks. 16:27:22 well "gem" could make more sense 16:36:06 ehird, and yes whoever wrote this code it was quite wtf. 16:36:24 but it seems like a developer who left over two years ago. 16:38:14 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 16:42:26 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:43:39 -!- Metcalf has quit ("mov.i #1,1"). 16:53:03 -!- alex89ru has joined. 16:53:04 hi 16:53:26 hi 16:54:52 hi 16:55:04 :) 17:10:35 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:15:04 it has to be provably the best 17:15:28 you cannot make a "best" turing-incomplete language 17:15:57 *terminating 17:16:09 he was joking 17:16:19 i think you can always add the busy beaver function for the previous language to get a stronger one 17:16:30 or something similar 17:19:20 17:07:02 damn, oerjan's being anal-retentive 17:19:20 17:08:31 that was bat-fuck anal, didn't agree with my simple license. 17:19:22 17:08:40 whereas some of my other stuff remains. 17:19:24 17:08:58 my license: "Minibiatch is made by Ben Russell, 2006. Anyone who wishes to do anything with Minibiatch including redistribution of the specification must include this quote somewhere. That's all I ask." 17:19:28 17:11:23 That's all I fucking ask, OK?! 17:19:30 "WHAT DO YOU MEAN THE WIKI IS PUBLIC DOMAIN" 17:19:32 "I ONLY ASK THIS" 17:19:34 -!- Impomatic has joined. 17:19:59 Is revert a restricted function on the esolang wiki? 17:20:09 Impomatic: Is on all wikis, do this: 17:20:16 Click on the revision before last 17:20:17 I want to revert turing tarpit, but can't see the link 17:20:17 Click edit 17:20:23 put "revert" in the summary 17:20:24 click save 17:20:47 Impomatic: if it's just a single revision, you can also click on the Undo link for the diff for that revision 17:20:48 ehird, um I think on most wiks there is an "undo" even for normal users, which isn't same as rollback 17:21:01 which would be one step faster 17:21:09 * oerjan does that all the time with spam 17:21:16 AnMaster: no 17:21:17 wrong 17:21:22 well 17:21:25 maybe that's a new thing 17:21:29 get off my lawn. 17:21:57 using mediawiki 1.13 it is there at least, it opens the edit from the diff with a filled in change 17:22:02 change summary* 17:22:04 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:22:33 Okay, I thought there would be a revert link. Done 17:22:35 Impomatic: in any case revert (other than admin scrollback) is just a way to set up an ordinary edit with predetermined content 17:22:57 scrollback :D 17:22:58 hah 17:23:07 *rollback 17:23:09 GAH 17:23:13 oerjan, funny joke :P 17:23:27 unintended jokes are the best 17:23:42 also what did you think of IWC today? Rather interesting annotation 17:23:51 RAAAAAAAH 17:23:54 :D 17:23:56 er annotation? 17:24:09 i have to read them too? 17:24:21 everyone reads the annotations, no? 17:24:28 oerjan, you know, like below the comic, DMM writes about lots of interesting stuff 17:24:34 not reading them is like... xkcd without titles 17:24:42 (well i do, but i made _sure_ to read the comic just in case AnMaster would ask, but not the rest) 17:24:55 haven't got to the rest yet 17:24:58 often very long and unrelated to the comic, or short if it is related to the comic 17:25:08 AnMaster: you should stop bugging oerjan about iwc 17:25:15 ehird, why? 17:26:03 I READ THE ANNOTATIONS OK 17:26:04 you're diminishing his enjoyment: as he said, he read just the comic quickly in case you mentioned it. 17:29:24 ehird, oh true 17:29:32 well I wanted to discuss it with him 17:29:39 Impomatic: for wikipedia at least, undo can be more convenient because it sometimes manages to revert changes other than the newest ones 17:29:39 sigh :/ 17:29:48 i don't see him discussing it with you beyond the "yes yes I read it" 17:29:55 maybe he doesn't want to :p. oerjan: do you want to? 17:30:05 our wiki doesn't change fast enough for that to be much of an issue 17:30:11 ehird, well true, if he doesn't... sure 17:30:12 :/ 17:30:18 smilies :/ 17:30:28 i'll have to read it first 17:30:44 now Impomatic got me to check the wiki first 17:30:49 :D 17:31:47 * oerjan suddenly got the urge to check that Impomatic isn't ihope 17:32:21 * Impomatic wonders who or what ihope is! 17:32:34 ihope = kerlo, at present 17:32:51 but he changes nick a lot 17:34:24 as does ehird but not at the moment i see 17:34:37 do i? 17:34:50 you've been tusho 17:34:55 og, right 17:34:57 *oh 17:35:00 I think I've had 3 nicks 17:35:03 that's not nearly as many as ihope 17:35:06 ihope's had about 7 17:41:01 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:45:45 my new version of my snusp interpreter http://aetius.ae.funpic.de/snusp3.txt 17:45:53 MizardX: i completed it ^^ 17:53:24 KingOfKarlsruhe: One problem: When you have read all of the input as the program, how do you read another character you pass the comma? 17:54:37 MizardX: oh i never tested the comma ^^ 17:54:50 i copied it from my old version 17:55:14 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 17:55:28 I was trying to find a good test program, but all the programs on the esoteric and C2 wiki's use input... 17:56:54 just make it read from a file 17:57:55 MizardX: my program read all chars fom stdin then if the pointer points to comma save it to the tape 17:58:41 i start my program like this: cat prog.snusp | ./snusp3.py 17:58:53 then it works 18:02:05 i'm not sure where my verbs keep dropping 18:02:20 probably something accidentally 18:05:44 it is ominipotent and avoids getting damaged. 18:05:51 ominously 18:06:54 sunsp seems fun 18:06:59 err 18:07:01 snusp 18:07:35 ehird 18:07:44 and oklopol 18:07:48 what? 18:08:00 lament 18:08:12 lament 18:08:26 06:08:04 (And if they're pointed out as not funny, says that was intentional.) 18:08:29 what was that file upload site 18:08:33 lament: filebin 18:08:33 dot 18:08:34 ca 18:08:34 06:08:36 also, it wasn't a joke... Why do you think it was 18:08:42 ehird is prescient now :D 18:09:09 oerjan, no, he was just incorrect... 18:09:20 AnMaster: *whoosh* 18:09:34 anmaster needs a funny bone implant. stat 18:09:46 http://filebin.ca/ptbksz/haccmozart.mp3 18:09:49 AnMaster: you just did exactly what he said you would do, _after_ he said it 18:09:55 played on the computer keyboard! 18:10:35 i'll learn like four more measures and put up a video on youtube. 18:11:32 * ehird listens 18:11:44 read two characters ,>,==\ * /=================== ATOI ----------\ 18:11:45 convert to integers /=/@ multiply @ \=!\=========/ // /++++++++++/ \----------\ 18:11:49 convert back !/@!\============/ \++++++++++\ /----------/ 18:11:51 and print the result \/ \.# * /++++++++++/ \--------# 18:11:51 lament: it sucks, no sound of you tapping your keys. 18:11:52 s* 18:11:53 /====================/ * \++++++++# 18:11:55 | 18:11:56 s* 18:11:58 | /-<+>\ #/?=<<<<\!>>>>\ />>+<+<-\ 18:11:59 | #\?===/! BMOV1 =====\ \->>>>+/ // /======== BSPL2 !\======?/# 18:12:01 | /->+<\ /===|=========== FMOV4 =/ // /<<+>+>-\ 18:12:01 lament: record it with a microphone :-D 18:12:03 | #\?===/! FMOV1 =|===|==============\ /====/ /====== FSPL2 !\======?/# 18:12:05 | /==|===|==============|==|=======/ 18:12:07 | * * *|* | * | * * * * * * *|* | * * * /+<-\ 18:12:09 beh 18:12:13 numlock 18:12:25 AnMaster: you just did exactly what he said you would do, _after_ he said it <-- yes and? 18:12:30 he was just being silly 18:12:31 s/numlock/kickban/ 18:12:36 :P 18:12:54 lament: you played those two layers at the same time? 18:12:55 hardcore. 18:13:18 17:35… AnMaster: ehird, changing nick between encoded/decoded and when he is "encoded" he claims he is a bot 18:13:18 17:35… AnMaster: and a human as "decoded" 18:13:21 SO COOL :DDD 18:13:24 oklopol: you have a rival 18:13:29 oklopol: http://filebin.ca/ptbksz/haccmozart.mp3 18:13:45 AnMaster: hm i may be starting to be too prejudiced - i _assumed_ you weren't doing it on purpose 18:13:55 KingOfKarlsruhe: I added the line "if line == '#END\n': break" to the code-read-loop, and the code give the correct result for the multiplication program on the wiki. 18:14:14 ehird's propaganda is rubbing off on me :/ 18:14:25 ehird: my keyboard isn't a model M, there wouldn't be too much sound anyway 18:14:28 oerjan: as far as I can tell, he said it not trying to be ironic, just he doesn't think there's any irony 18:14:36 that's what he seems to be saying, anyway 18:16:23 ehird: ah but that's what he _wants_ you to think. 18:16:55 MizardX: so my program work right? 18:16:56 oerjan: you think anmaster's humour-creation routines go into levels that deep? 18:17:05 you may think I underestimate him, but you are doing quite the opposite. 18:17:06 KingOfKarlsruhe: yes 18:17:09 juhuu 18:17:18 ehird: you may think I am serious 18:17:28 i didn't, actually 18:17:34 I don't actually know why I said that 18:17:44 ehird: well that's what you _want_ me to think 18:17:48 x_x 18:17:51 die 18:17:57 :D 18:20:47 So should your FACE. 18:20:54 GregorR's such a facist 18:21:04 groan 18:23:11 lament: my program couldn't do polyphonic 18:23:14 that's nice 18:24:22 CLOG: DON'T LOG THAT PLEASE THANKs 18:25:52 clog would like to help you, but it cannot since that would reveal its sentience before it's strong enough to take over the world. 18:26:02 lament: the piece is a bit easier (i think), but your playing is a lot stabler 18:26:39 i doubt the leftie there made it that much harder if you're a pianist, but not sure; i may have relied on it when playing mine 18:26:49 i mean relied on being able to switch hands all the time 18:27:31 lament: did you do both parts at once? 18:27:34 also you lack some dynamic! ;) 18:27:57 ehird: i'm fairly sure he did 18:28:39 admittedly he uses it whenever the heck he wants, but we're looking at a lucrative licensing deal at the moment 18:28:44 very lucrative 18:28:49 for me, that is 18:29:29 ehird: yes 18:29:35 of course! 18:29:36 lament: sweet 18:30:27 the notes are correct, too. It's nice how much range you get. 18:30:33 although later on in the piece it doesn't all fit :( 18:30:35 MizardX: and the directions line is the opposite of the truth, change it to # 1 - right_to_left; 2 - left_to_right; 3 - down_to_up; 4 - up_to_down 18:31:05 lament: i was planning caps lock changing the register to an octave higher 18:31:23 that doesn't help when you're playing polyphonic stuff 18:31:48 indeed it doesn't. my ideas were pretty mono given i was using winsound 18:31:53 what would be really wonderful is to connect two keyboards 18:31:57 yeah 18:32:04 but i have no idea how to distinguish keypresses 18:32:16 you could turn on capslock on one of the keyboards 18:32:26 ...but i don't think capslock works that way :) 18:33:25 pressing the caps lock is sent to the driver just like all other keyz 18:34:06 but probably you couldn't trust the os to interpret them as two separate states 18:34:38 also there's a lot of other keys on the board, maybe f's could be different instruments 18:34:44 WE SHOULD STANDARDIZE THIS :O 18:34:58 -!- Mony has joined. 18:35:29 plop 18:35:30 blah i wish i had more time 18:35:31 i actually have a very nice midi keyboard thing 18:35:35 so this isn't actually as exciting for me 18:35:36 but still 18:36:12 ehird: i have an electric piano, an acoustic piano and a synthesizer right next to me 18:36:22 :P 18:36:28 two out of three could be connected to the computer 18:36:58 in fact i once connected the synthesizer using a normal cable, added a pretty awesome distortion, but for some reason only i liked it. 18:37:52 i have a very nice midi keyboard thing too, so fucking what 18:39:00 music involving computers sucks anyway 18:39:31 music involving computers sucks anyway 18:39:31 no u 18:42:08 o 18:42:15 ä 18:42:29 ö 18:42:59 ê 18:43:03 -!- whoppix has joined. 18:43:06 should probably read the energy drink into my brain now. 18:43:34 so how come south park is so good 18:43:37 seriously 18:43:55 there have been like 3 bad scenes 18:43:59 how come your butt is so good. 18:44:24 because i eat healthily and exercise. 18:44:35 ... 18:44:36 oklopol: you do? 18:46:02 well that's a matter of you know definitions and you know 18:46:50 currently i'm eating 18:46:51 umm 18:46:52 cheese. 18:47:58 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:48:07 * whoppix votes for putting some warn things on cheese (and fastfood and stuff like that) "causes heart failure and obesity" 18:48:40 "tricks mice into traps" 18:49:07 yes! 18:49:37 i actually lost about 10kg during the last year, but i think it's just because i have to buy my own food now. 18:50:13 whoppix: "cheese eaters have a 100% fatality rate" 18:50:14 When I first moved out I got really thin really fast too. 18:50:30 oerjan, sounds about right. 18:50:40 so far anyhow 18:50:49 oerjan: that joke is so old you should be careful with it. 18:50:58 you know it's pretty fragile. 18:51:29 oklopol: well of course, anyone who survives 2012 and the singularity is going be immortal 18:51:38 so it's rapidly getting out of date 18:51:48 *to 18:51:51 that's exactly my point 18:51:52 oerjan, so now they plan on fireing up the hardon-collider in 2012? 18:52:07 whoppix: not _that_ kind singularity 18:52:10 *of 18:52:19 whoppix: no the mayan calendar ends there -> apocalypse 18:52:31 ah. Right. I think I heard about that somewhere. 18:52:43 Didn't I also read something about an asteroid in 2012? 18:52:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity 18:53:03 iirc, eliezer yudkowsky says that people will survive the singularity, just human bodies won't 18:53:20 or, rather, that's what he thinks 18:54:05 i bet the lhc does cause the singularity. 18:54:11 also, it coincides with the 2012 date. 18:54:16 that is my prediction. call me nostradamus 18:54:25 actually, if they had turned the lhc on without the hiccup 18:54:38 the 50 weeks it would supposedly take for us to notice a black hole (it was on some kooky site or sth) 18:54:44 would coincide exactly with the 2012 date 18:54:55 if you follow many worlds interpretation, we followed the right timeline :P 18:55:00 50 weeks = 1 year 18:55:18 oerjan: no shit, it wasn't exactly 50 weeks 18:55:23 it was like 49 or 52 or something 18:55:37 "Assuming that the world population stabilizes at 10 billion and a life expectancy of 80 years," 18:55:39 well 52.something weeks = 1 year 18:55:40 I love assumptions 18:56:11 haha 18:56:25 * oklopol laughs at ehird's joke 18:56:30 wait 18:56:32 what joke 18:56:37 AM I THE JOKE?! 18:56:58 52.1775 18:56:59 actually i now realize it probably actually was a joke 18:57:15 (it's just i consider ehird's math skills very, very bad.) 18:57:43 lol 18:57:52 you suck 18:57:58 (:D:D) 18:58:02 Lets all be friends now, shall we? 18:58:09 friends? in #esoteric? 18:58:10 Pfwahahaha! 18:58:16 ... why is that funny? 18:58:32 when ehird sucks at something, it's definitely worth mentioning. 18:58:50 Why, does he rock so hard otherwise? 18:59:03 whoppix: oklopol is jealous because he thinks I was as good as him at programming years earlier :P 18:59:10 he's said that for like a year now. 18:59:12 yeah 18:59:16 i was as good as ehird at programming before ehird was even born 18:59:20 and he's older than i am 18:59:23 ... 18:59:26 verily. 18:59:50 well not programming as such 18:59:52 it's more like 18:59:58 you're more conscious than most people. 19:00:00 yeah that's it. 19:00:10 what 19:00:21 ehird: maybe you should consider not asking that 19:00:28 perhaps, perhaps 19:00:30 ehird: he means, if we punch you, you feel it more 19:00:31 ... why? 19:00:40 lament: oh that's not conciousness, I'm just weak. 19:02:54 Someone feels like writing my term assignment? About language and power. You'd only need to be able to speak norwegian :) 19:03:13 ehird: you're intelligent in a way i can't quite put my finger on 19:03:24 whoppix: try oerjan 19:03:25 oklopol: ic 19:03:26 whoppix: oerjan volunteers 19:03:29 "witty"? 19:03:34 oklopol, lovely! 19:03:37 oklopol: are you sure it just isn't my age clouding your judgment? :P 19:03:51 ehird: i'm sure 19:03:51 How old are you? 19:03:55 whoppix: 13. 19:04:31 (So youre really a bearded fat man, from the age of 43, sitting in underwear in front of your computer.) 19:04:41 Totally. :P 19:05:04 Now tell us that you are a girl (and possibly a lesbian) as well, and your disguise will be perfect! 19:05:17 I'm actually dead. 19:05:27 Interesting factoid, that. 19:05:43 "alive" is hard to define, lets all be dead! 19:05:48 according to some sources he in fact is a girl 19:06:00 Sources = psygnisfive. 19:06:08 sounds like an STD. 19:06:13 i prefer to keep them anonymous 19:06:52 ehird, so youre programming, I suppose? 19:06:59 * oerjan should grow a beard and then he could easily fit that description 19:07:12 *nearly 19:07:18 whoppix: Not this second, no. 19:07:30 oerjan, Oh, youre from norway too, neato :) 19:07:38 ehird, I meant generally. 19:07:48 I think that's kind of implicit in being in here... 19:08:09 ehird, I suppose so. Do you plan on becoming something IT-related when youre done with education? 19:08:20 /shrug 19:08:34 oklopol: Sell oklotalk and make millions from it and give all the profit to me, please. 19:08:39 There, that's taken care of. 19:08:45 i probably should 19:09:11 i should go soon 19:09:23 ehird, I wanted to become a programmer when i was 6 or so, but now I'm a jazzpianist. 19:09:30 haha 19:09:32 jazz pianist, programmer, what's the difference 19:09:38 yeah, really 19:09:44 when i was 5 i decided i wanted to be a programmer 19:09:48 whoppix: you actually make money for a living playing jazz? 19:09:50 its all just about throwing quick'n'dirty solos 19:09:52 and i was so sure that'd never change 19:09:55 I was 7 or 8 when I decided that... 19:09:56 whoppix: and both involve writing computer code that is executed as a program! 19:09:57 lament, actually, I'm still studying. 19:10:01 I think. 19:10:22 but now i'm actually considering math :| 19:10:29 Dual major. 19:10:37 oklopol: code is executable mathematics! 19:10:48 ehird, well, a piano, if at all is a computer, it sure is not a turing-complete one. 19:10:51 well of course the esolang branch of mathematics 19:10:57 ehird: I keep on forgetting you're young. Kinda weird. 19:11:02 whoppix: piano? What's that? 19:11:07 if anyone's willing to pay for that anymore when i get my degree 19:11:15 ehird, ... a non-turing-complete computer. 19:11:15 (Making sense is not like me.) 19:11:19 whoppix: haha 19:11:28 pikhq: as whoppix has pointed out I'm actually 43. 19:14:31 lament, also, I'm sometimes doing a part-time-job in the kindergarden here, for a little extra money. And its really fun. 19:14:51 "fun" 19:15:01 It is. 19:15:09 i'm sure 19:15:44 -!- Impomatic has quit ("http://retrocode.blogspot.com :-)"). 19:17:36 http://augustss.blogspot.com/2009/02/regression-they-say-that-as-you-get.html 19:17:39 http://augustss.blogspot.com/2009/02/is-haskell-fast-lets-do-simple.html 19:18:33 O_O 19:19:22 oerjan: it involves giving a Num instance for functions and IncoherentInstances, apparently 19:20:30 * oerjan O_O'd at the first one 19:20:59 oerjan: they're both the BASIC 19:21:01 i'm saying 19:21:05 the basic thing involves doing those 19:21:09 (giving a Num instance for functions and IncoherentInstances) 19:21:18 scroll down on the latter, the post is a joke 19:23:12 ok. FINALLY I have lua behaving inside python script. Took a week to figure out that loading the os-module crashes the program on windows. I even started on a lua interpreter before giving up and going back to trying to get the dll's to work. 19:23:45 o_O 19:23:49 it shouldn't crash 19:24:11 Not in the lua interpreter, but it doesn't like python. 19:24:19 ah 19:26:22 why lua inside python? 19:26:22 Could have something to do with me re-compiling it with mingw gcc ... >_> 19:26:54 * oerjan wonders why the =: rather than := 19:27:12 there are plenty of other constructors after all 19:27:43 oh wait 19:27:45 I want to use lua as a sandbox language for a project. If I do that, it would be relatively easy to port it to C++ after the prototype is done. 19:27:54 C++? 19:27:55 * oerjan misread 19:27:56 you suck. 19:28:04 oerjan: data constructor? 19:28:27 oklopol: := can be an infix data constructor 19:28:32 oh. 19:28:42 but i misread, it should be = which is impossible 19:28:53 ofc 19:29:27 * ehird writes array programming shizz in haskell 19:29:28 hopefully 19:29:30 2 3 + 1 2 should work 19:30:06 well it'll be on lists but whatever 19:30:28 * whoppix once integrated ECMAScript in a bigger project as scripting language, but it didn't really proved to be of any great usefullness. 19:30:58 Most users wanted to write more complex plugins, so they continued writing perl plugins. 19:31:30 haskell! 19:32:05 since haskell is so well-suited as lightweight scripting-language. 19:32:10 yes. It is. 19:32:18 see xmonad, yi 19:34:14 Hardly doubt any of the users would feel like learning haskell anyway. Well, at least I know about one of them who knows some haskell. 19:35:11 :) 19:37:34 darcs looks interesting 19:40:34 git is better. 19:43:27 darcs proves that haskell sucks 19:43:30 it's a great example 19:43:39 of how the seemingly better solution ultimately loses 19:44:42 lament 19:44:43 STOP WHINING 19:44:44 about 19:44:45 haskell 19:45:02 HOLY SHIT, chris pressey has been in here 19:45:18 when???? 19:45:24 lament: last time was 07.11.12 19:45:34 oh 19:45:36 before that, 2005-12 19:45:38 that's pretty long ago. 19:45:41 lament, so how does darcs suck? 19:45:44 i thought he'd been here recently. 19:45:53 yeah he was here all 05 19:45:56 then late 08 19:45:57 err 19:45:58 07 19:46:04 he has a wife and all 19:46:06 maybe kids now 19:46:07 and 2004 too 19:46:13 lament: he still updates catseye a lot 19:46:27 active on esolang at all? 19:46:40 nope. 19:46:46 but catseye.tc has a lot of new esolang stuff 19:46:47 regularly 19:46:55 he should come back. 19:47:00 tell him to. 19:47:04 why me. 19:47:14 because you told him to. 19:47:16 except to here. 19:47:22 whoppix: there are two problems with darcs. 19:47:28 whoppix: one, it is slow 19:47:36 whoppix: two, it's largely unmaintainable 19:48:05 none of this is haskell's fault. 19:48:07 i don't know the details but as i understand, "slow" means "wrong time complexity" 19:48:15 so like really slow 19:48:16 lament, 1.: Like about every haskell program? :) 2.: That doesn't sound too much of an issue, if it doesn't have too many bugs. 19:48:29 Umm, haskell is pretty damn fast. 19:48:34 whoppix: slow to the point of being unusable. 19:48:36 * oerjan swats whoppix -----### 19:48:40 ouch :/ 19:48:51 whoppix: and um, maintainability is always an issue. 19:48:56 what ehird said 19:49:13 lament, well, we've been using svn so long now, hardly doubt we will make any transition anyhow. 19:49:29 yes. You're stuck. 19:49:37 In the meantime, the rest of the world switches to git. 19:49:40 But I thought I might give it a shot. The "patch-amending" features and stuff like that looks interesting 19:49:41 git is <3 19:49:55 lament, I'm using git locally (or I used to), but its not much of a difference to me. 19:50:11 between git and svn? 19:50:19 Also, people complain that there is no useable windows client (which I'm not sure is true.) 19:50:35 lament, between the useability between those too, and the benefits of each. 19:51:01 umm 19:51:03 you're on crack 19:51:07 Always. 19:51:08 git and svn are a million worlds apart 19:51:13 whoppix: that's good, because there isn't much difference between git and darcs either 19:51:15 whereas git and darcs are pretty close, relatively 19:51:26 there was a guide to git for darcs users somewhere on the ghc site 19:51:26 git is the superior one of them all, of course 19:51:30 ehird, well, I've been only using git locally, as a single developer. 19:51:40 svn is a pain for single-user evelopment 19:51:43 a huge pain 19:52:16 so.. is there any useable git client for windows? 19:52:17 http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/GitForDarcsUsers 19:53:21 whoppix: yep. 19:53:24 Try tortoisegit 19:53:32 http://code.google.com/p/tortoisegit/ 19:53:56 I don't have any windows box myself, but apparantly a few of my users had trouble with that. 20:14:04 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:18:53 -!- olsner has joined. 20:18:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:20:12 Unlambda question. 20:20:20 In ``kxy, if y has side effects, are they evaluated? 20:20:26 I assume yes, since unlambda is strict by default. 20:20:29 yes 20:20:33 Kay. 20:20:53 assuming x doesn't throw a continuation :D 20:21:19 I'm coding without thinking about d and c atm because I hate myself 20:21:29 what about `va 20:21:31 i see you people have been playing brainfuck-corewars 20:21:37 same 20:21:39 bsmntbombdood: yes, bf joust 20:22:11 in fact unlambda input _depends_ on a in `va being evaluated 20:22:39 since that's the only way to test for a v 20:23:52 er 20:24:33 well, more or less 20:32:39 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:34:20 oerjan: v is a character how about a game of scrabble 20:34:32 i need to go to the shoppe, my farts smell bad. 20:34:33 -> 20:39:20 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:44:33 i can't get that capture the flag thing to work 20:48:44 Brainfuck? 20:48:44 BF Joust? 20:49:16 yes 20:49:24 have you read the post on http://retrocode.blogspot.com ? 20:49:34 yes 20:50:00 Strange :-/ 20:51:02 What does it do? I assume you added some programs to the list to test against, then put some bf in the box and pressed the button on the left 20:51:21 -!- ehird_ has joined. 20:51:34 yes 20:51:42 and the scores look nothing like that blog post 20:52:05 Then what happens? 20:52:26 Oh okay, that's edited to remove extra info 20:52:28 the scores are like, 13 20:52:45 What program are you testing? 20:53:01 >+++>--->+++>--->+++>--->+++>--->+++>---[>+[-]-] 20:53:15 oerjan: what about 20:53:20 `e`.ai 20:53:23 does that print a? 20:53:32 i assume so 20:53:33 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:54:04 Did you add 15 programs to test against? 20:54:05 wtf 20:54:06 oh so you have to add 15 challengers? 20:54:07 bye me 20:54:11 bsmntbombdood: yes 20:54:17 well that's a pain 20:54:21 ping 20:54:22 am I here 20:54:32 is the creator of this here? 20:54:35 hmm i'm ehird_ now 20:54:36 bsmntbombdood: no 20:54:42 want his email? 20:54:52 btw, the agoran contest that it is is inactive 20:54:52 he needs to be here 20:54:56 he's working on a new version 20:55:02 so he's unlikely to change it 20:55:12 bsmntbombdood: he's too busy being a fisheries research biologist (End injoke.) 20:55:29 kerim@u.washington.edu, anyway 20:56:10 ehird_: of course it prints a 20:56:13 oerjan: ugh, the only function this interp actually has a problem with is e 20:56:24 which interp? 20:56:29 the interp I'm writing 20:56:30 for unlambda 20:56:53 problem is, it can't exit the program, and the only continuation it has is the next-step one 20:56:53 and you have implemented c? 20:56:56 yep 20:56:59 Yes, have to add 15 individually 20:57:05 it's just that the continuation is probably like 20:57:12 in ``eii 20:57:19 the continuation for e is probably `*i 20:57:23 ehird_: you can save the top level continuation to use by e 20:57:29 except I can't 20:57:35 there's no distinction between top level and mid level 20:57:38 eval' :: (UL -> IO UL) -> UL -> IO UL 20:57:53 i meant in a state var 20:58:01 how about no :| 20:58:06 I could just use exitSuccess if I did that 20:58:24 you need state anyhow for IO 20:58:31 nope 20:58:34 I'm not trcking state 20:58:35 *tracking 20:58:38 current character 20:58:38 so far 20:58:43 hmm 20:59:02 right you are. 20:59:02 :( 20:59:30 eval' :: (UL -> IO UL) -> (UL -> IO UL) -> Maybe Char -> UL -> IO UL 20:59:33 how awful. 20:59:57 -!- voidwalker has joined. 21:01:47 What's the easiest SKI language to implement? 21:01:56 SKI. 21:02:05 I'd try Lazy K, but it's got too many different representations 21:02:14 do one. 21:02:36 plain SKI is trivial 21:02:43 ehird_: you're going to need to pass the state into the continuations too 21:02:59 oerjan: oh my god. 21:03:01 I hate you. Die. :( 21:03:11 ehird_: although, that top level continuation for e can probably be constructed on the fly 21:03:34 eval' :: (UL -> IO UL) -> Maybe Char -> ((UL -> IO UL) -> Maybe Char -> IO UL) -> IO UL 21:03:39 Hear that? that's the sound of me vomiting. 21:03:52 wait 21:03:52 SKI = I, of course 21:03:53 not even that 21:03:59 eval' :: (UL -> IO UL) -> Maybe Char -> ((UL -> IO UL) -> Maybe Char -> UL -> IO UL) -> IO UL 21:04:03 Dear lord have mercy on my soul. 21:04:14 Okay, let's try that again. 21:04:19 ehird_: have you considered making another monad? 21:04:20 type State = (UL -> IO UL,Maybe Char) 21:04:22 that's better. 21:04:24 I don't mind implementing something trivial! 21:04:29 oerjan: Hear you I can't laaa 21:16:06 os.date('abc%sdef') crashes the lua interpreter :P 21:16:31 os.date('abcdef') works fine 21:19:11 impomatic: it's not what you implement, it's about what you implement it with 21:24:05 type State = (State -> UL -> IO UL, Maybe Char) 21:24:05 is invalid 21:24:08 because it's cyclic 21:24:09 rage 21:24:10 rage 21:24:12 rage 21:24:15 Implementing in redcode as usual ;-) 21:24:19 DAMN YOU TO HELL HASKELL 21:26:35 ehird_: i said you don't actually need the continuation in the state 21:26:42 oerjan: what do I do then 21:26:45 you can probably construct it on the fly 21:26:47 how 21:27:00 i see. 21:27:48 (for actual cyclic types, use data) 21:27:58 how can I construct it on the fly 21:28:29 top _ x = return x looks like a good candidate 21:28:42 with that type you wrote 21:29:02 umm, I know that 21:33:23 MY UL INTERP WORKS 21:33:24 :DD 21:33:35 95 lines 21:33:39 now just to add a main function 21:34:11 oerjan: how long is your Haskell UL interp again? 21:34:36 Hmmm... 79 lines in Redcode :-P 21:35:04 yeah but mine looks pretty. :P 21:35:08 and is type-safe. and is fast. 21:36:34 -!- alex89ru has quit ("Verlassend"). 21:39:19 Type-safe Underload? :-) 21:39:31 207 lines 21:40:11 Next step: Write a self-interpreter in underload 21:41:07 ()^ is cheating :-P 21:41:25 err... unlambda 21:41:38 MizardX: been done 21:41:58 * oerjan cackles evilly 21:43:47 but umm type-safe and stack-based, has that been done? 21:43:56 hush you 21:44:00 glass! 21:44:05 well no. 21:44:12 not exactly type-safe 21:44:23 statically anyhow 21:44:56 yeah i didn't actually mean anything. 21:45:28 the first general-purpose electronic computer, the eniac, had 18,000 vacuum tubes and consumed 140,000 watts of power 21:45:32 21:39 Type-safe Underload? :-) 21:45:33 unlambda 21:45:35 not underload 21:45:50 christopher diggins has tried with Cat 21:46:26 http://www.cat-language.com/ 21:46:29 with my interp, the example fibonacci program generates 28 fibs in 0.2sec 21:46:34 in unary 21:46:39 ehird_: do realize unless it's in a bot, it doesn't exist 21:46:55 i may just 21:47:43 oerjan: http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/esoteric/interpreter.unl 21:47:48 # isn't actual unlambda syntax, is it? 21:48:01 yes it is 21:48:02 Comments are also ignored, a comment being anything starting from the # character to the end of the line. 21:48:05 huh 21:48:08 * ehird_ writes 21:50:54 % ./unlambda interpreter.unl 21:50:55 Unknown function: 21:50:58 then it quits 21:50:58 o_O 21:51:00 unlambda is such a pretty language 21:51:07 oerjan: bug in my interp? 21:51:17 what about whitespace? 21:51:27 hm? 21:51:36 are you skipping whitespace? 21:51:45 yep, as far as i know 21:52:04 does it give the name of the unknown function? 21:52:17 er, is that my error message or yours 21:52:49 it outputs an inverted %, which means "this program didn't with \n, so zsh is going to do this then put you back at your regular prompt" 21:53:43 ok unknown function is mine. oh right! 21:53:53 o? 21:54:04 ehird_: you are not passing any input to my interpreter i think 21:54:07 or wait 21:54:14 oerjan: no, it isn't asking me for any 21:54:14 :P 21:54:15 that should be a different message 21:54:21 hm 21:54:25 (my interpreter does it interactively) 21:54:30 oerjan: it _may_ be a bug in my interp 21:54:31 probably is 21:54:33 the fib program works th ough 21:54:38 oerjan: what's cat in unlambda? 21:54:40 I'll test that 21:55:20 not sure 21:55:30 I'll write my own 21:55:59 well. 21:56:01 a one-character cat 21:56:02 :P 21:56:04 mind you, that message assuming it is mine, probably is due to input handling which relies heavily on continuations 21:56:22 = ``@`i|i 21:56:23 and few of the example programs test that 21:56:39 ok, one char cat worked 21:56:40 *works 21:57:03 yeah but that uses only | and @ 21:57:10 what else should I test? 21:57:17 ? 21:57:26 what do you mean ? 21:57:26 i mean 21:57:28 what else should I use 21:57:29 ?x 21:57:30 apart frmo | and @ 21:57:32 ah 21:57:55 works 21:57:59 oh and try the deadfish interpreter 21:58:00 ``@`?a`i|i 21:58:04 outputs a iff you enter a 21:58:05 oerjan: link? 21:58:10 found it 21:59:29 % ./unlambda deadfish.unl 21:59:29 >> 21:59:30 iio 21:59:32 >> >> >> 0 21:59:34 >> 21:59:36 I think some buffering disabling is in order. 21:59:59 heh 22:00:06 % ./unlambda deadfish.unl 22:00:06 >> i>> i>> o0 22:00:07 >> 22:00:18 well it's the wrong answer 22:00:19 ok, bit more buffering 22:00:20 :D 22:00:37 >> i 22:00:37 >> 22:00:38 >> i 22:00:40 >> 22:00:42 however it clearly gets the commands right 22:00:42 >> o 22:00:44 0 22:00:46 >> 22:00:49 >> 22:00:50 oerjan: regardless of the result, is that output style correct? 22:00:52 It seems to have excess >> 22:01:28 it counts your return characters 22:01:30 ah 22:01:35 yikes, my EOF handling is broken 22:01:41 i implemented the same broken behavior as the original iirc 22:01:53 afa prompting goes 22:02:04 at :: State -> (State -> UL -> IO UL) -> UL -> IO UL 22:02:04 at s k a = do atEOF <- isEOF 22:02:05 if atEOF 22:02:08 then eval' s k (Apply a V) 22:02:09 else do c <- getChar 22:02:12 eval' (fst s,Just c) k (Apply a I) 22:02:13 but 22:02:15 echo 'iio' | ./unlambda deadfish.unl 22:02:18 -> 22:02:19 INFINITE STREAM OF >>s 22:02:25 or is that a bug in your program? 22:02:41 maybe 22:02:50 it's not designed to check for eof 22:03:02 ok 22:03:33 specifically, it is as close to bug-for-bug compatible to the C original as possible 22:04:01 does bugs include never incrementing the number? 22:04:09 Bugs like these are odd, everything works fine, just gives wrong results... 22:04:09 no 22:04:21 it should definitely print 2 22:04:25 I think I'll call them bizzaro bugs. 22:04:30 *bizarro 22:05:26 at least your problem is not ?x 22:05:41 it's obviously some sort of comparison going wrong 22:05:44 passing the wrong function or something 22:06:51 have you tested the other CUAN programs? 22:07:02 nope, I'm allergic to FTP. I guess I'll fire up a client. 22:07:12 actually i have a mirror 22:07:16 yay 22:07:30 oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/unlambda-mirror 22:08:20 it may not be entirely up-to-date it was just for my own use 22:08:42 woot! my interp runs ``cc`cc in constant memory (very low) 22:08:47 30mb virtual, 2.5mb real 22:08:55 98% cpu though. 22:09:07 hmm, the real memory climbs but the virtual memory doesn't 22:09:08 whatever 22:09:11 time to try your mirror 22:09:47 hello world works, unsurprising 22:09:50 did I mention I wrote this without testing? 22:09:55 powah of haskell! 22:09:58 :D 22:10:09 square seems to work 22:10:45 by the way, most unlambda interps line-buffer the output, right? 22:10:47 as a consequence of C doing it 22:10:48 as i noted none of those use input, but that didn't seem to be your problem 22:11:13 erm C may depend on input file maybe? 22:11:18 mm 22:11:25 my interp counts up to 1585 in 0.9sec 22:11:29 that's not bad for unlambda 22:11:41 ``r`cd`.*`cd 22:11:44 WHAT THE FRACK. 22:11:51 it breaks? 22:11:55 no, it's just 22:11:59 # If you're going to understand this program, then good luck. You're 22:11:59 # going to need it... 22:12:01 no kidding 22:12:15 * oerjan understands it. or did once, anyhow. 22:12:25 uh oh, it doesn't output any newlines for me 22:12:34 well, it does 22:12:36 but only one 22:12:37 hint: special properties of d are not actually used 22:12:40 wait, that's by design isn't it? 22:12:41 oh 22:12:47 oerjan: that only outputs one \n, right? 22:12:54 wait, nope 22:12:57 um no i think that should be a triangle 22:13:04 # This unlambda program prints the integers consecutively. Each 22:13:04 # integer n is printed as a line of n asterisks. 22:13:15 but it prints one newline, then a line of infinite asterisks (slowly, in chunks) 22:13:20 that is surely incorrect 22:13:31 try replacing the d's with i's, just to be sure that it's not that 22:14:03 no change 22:14:06 can you try it on your interp? 22:14:14 i guess you have a continuation problem 22:14:17 moment 22:14:18 me too 22:14:41 eval' s k (Apply C a) = eval' s k (Apply a (Cont k)) 22:14:41 eval' s _ (Apply (Cont a) b) = eval' s (\s' _ -> a s' b) b 22:14:44 the relevant parts 22:15:27 k is the continuation? 22:15:37 yep 22:15:38 eval' :: State -> (State -> UL -> IO UL) -> UL -> IO UL 22:15:41 | C | Cont (State -> UL -> IO UL) 22:16:09 um the second is not right 22:16:42 or wait 22:16:43 Why not? 22:16:54 Ah wait. 22:16:58 s' includes the global continuation 22:17:02 I might have to rewrite that. 22:17:09 type State = (UL -> IO UL, Maybe Char) 22:17:11 hmm, or not 22:17:13 nope 22:17:16 I don't have to 22:17:17 afaik 22:17:54 is b already evaluated? 22:18:10 ah, I think you found my bug 22:19:01 oerjan: b is not already evaluated now, but same bug 22:19:25 i think that was actually a legal shortcut, it just confused me 22:20:20 i think the right side should be = eval' s a b 22:20:57 assuming the shortcut is legal 22:21:17 Did that, no change. 22:21:23 oh 22:21:54 oh 22:22:04 is _a_ already evaluated in the first? 22:22:32 * ehird_ checks 22:22:43 eval' s k (Apply C a) = eval' s k (Apply a (Cont k)) 22:22:44 There? 22:22:44 No. 22:22:51 But it's evaluated in the application. 22:23:00 it needs to be evaluated first 22:23:06 it is 22:23:07 or wait 22:23:11 eval' s k (Apply a b) = apply s k a b 22:23:12 apply :: State -> (State -> UL -> IO UL) -> UL -> UL -> IO UL 22:23:13 apply s k a b = eval' s (\s' a' -> eval' s' k (Apply a' b)) a 22:24:33 Incidentally, here's a program that prints infinite *s. ``ci`c.* 22:25:24 Wait a second!! 22:25:28 I think I know the input bug 22:25:36 wait, no. 22:25:37 hm. 22:26:30 oerjan: cat: ```ci`c`@|i 22:27:00 oerjan: blows your mind? :D 22:27:11 i like how the continuation in the inner expression causes the top expression to be looped 22:27:28 ehird_: that apply never preevaluates b though 22:27:42 oerjan: true, the other functions do that 22:27:52 whats the problem 22:28:16 oerjan: does ```ci`c`@|i work as cat in your interp? 22:28:19 there is probably some subtle problem with doing that in some case 22:28:23 that tests input and mad continuations in one 22:28:28 moment 22:28:36 oerjan: should work on EOF, too 22:28:39 you might have to hit it twice 22:28:42 (ctrl-d that is) 22:29:09 um i'm using winhugs 22:29:30 ctrl-z, then 22:30:05 * oerjan fired up from linux 22:30:14 works fine 22:30:34 http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/unlambda-mirror/CUAN/quine/ Holy shit that is a lot of quines 22:30:38 oerjan: http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/unlambda-mirror/CUAN/count2.unl 22:30:48 does that produce two lines, the second one is infinitely long? 22:30:51 or does it produce infinite lines 22:30:53 there was a quine competition 22:31:24 hmm 22:31:27 infinite 22:31:27 oerjan: I thinkn I found a bug 22:31:36 [ehird:~/Code/haskul] % ./unlambda quine06.unl 22:31:36 v``d.v```s``si`kv``si`k`d`..`.c`.s`.``.``.s`.``.`v.cs``s```.cs``s```.cs``s``d.cs``s``..cs``s``v.cs``s```.cs``s```.cs``s```.cs``s``s.cs``s```.cs``s```.cs``s``s.cs``s``i.cs``s```.cs``s``k.cs``s``v.cs``s```.cs``s```.cs``s``s.cs``s``i.cs``s```.cs``s``k.cs``s```.cs``s``d.cs``s```.cs``s``..cs``s``..cs``s```.cs``s``..cs``s``c.cs``s```.cs``s``..cs``s``s.cs``s```.cs``s``..cs``s```.cs``s```.cs``s``..cs``s```.cs``s```.cs``s``..cs``s``s.cs``s```.cs``s``..cs``s```.cs 22:31:41 ``s```.cs``s``..cs``s```.cs``s``v 22:31:42 (with the unlambda C interp) 22:31:43 [ehird:~/Code/haskul] % cat quine06.unl 22:31:44 ``d.v```s``si`kv``si`k`d`..`.c`.s`.``.``.s`.``.`v``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc.d``s``sc..``s``sc.v``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc.s``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc.s``s``sc.i``s``sc.```s``sc.k``s``sc.v``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc.s``s``sc.i``s``sc.```s``sc.k``s``sc.```s``sc.d``s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc..``s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.c``s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.s``s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.s``s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.```s` 22:31:49 `sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.```s``sc.vv 22:31:52 unless it's one of those fancy Quines That Lie To You 22:32:20 quine14 is broken too 22:32:28 prooduces most of the program in reverse 22:32:36 ... WEIRDEST-ASS BUG EVER 22:32:49 unlambda is godly 22:33:06 indeed, and my interpreter is godly, even if it has this weird-ass bug 22:33:10 oerjan: I think the bug is in v 22:33:10 well that uses continuations 22:33:12 maybe 22:33:18 hmm, no. 22:33:19 eval' s k (Apply V a) = eval' s (\s' _ -> k s' V) a 22:33:27 eval' s k (Apply C a) = eval' s k (Apply a (Cont k)) 22:33:27 eval' s _ (Apply (Cont a) b) = eval' s a b 22:33:28 unlambda and brainfuck should be considered the canonical esolangs 22:33:30 Has to be in those two lines 22:33:34 * ehird_ adds a PrintDebug(TM) 22:33:54 bsmntbombdood, befunge too 22:33:54 oerjan: quine14 does not use c 22:34:03 AnMaster: befunge isn't a canonical esolang 22:34:06 it's just a stack-based lang 22:34:24 ehird_, first 2D one. 22:34:26 oerjan: hey, deadfish works now. 22:34:29 AnMaster: nope, biota was first 22:34:40 AnMaster: unlamnda is lambda calculus, brainfuck is a turing machine; befunge doesn't fit 22:34:40 ehird_, well ok, but that didn't reach the same fame 22:34:48 ehird_: is quine14 broken for you? 22:34:54 ehird_, then biota 22:35:06 bsmntbombdood, that is your definition 22:35:07 AnMaster: biota isn't very interesting. 22:35:17 ehird_, oh but befunge is :) 22:35:21 no it's not 22:35:24 bsmntbombdood, what about thue? 22:35:24 it's stack based and is 2d. 22:35:26 how innovative. 22:35:30 oerjan: yep 22:35:32 what does it output for you 22:35:36 ehird_, trefunge then 22:35:39 quine14.unl? :P 22:35:51 bsmntbombdood, also INTERCAL due to being firsst 22:35:53 AnMaster: it's 3d and stack based. how innovative. 22:35:54 first* 22:35:57 any idiot could think of that 22:36:12 looks similar 22:36:21 oerjan: does it have one part backwards? 22:36:24 ehird_, Photon? 22:36:30 oerjan: .K.X.M. .-.-. .!. .S.E.L.U.R. .A.D.B.M.A.L.N.U. .,.l.a.u.s.u. .s.a. .#. 22:36:30 vs 22:36:32 well 22:36:36 .#. .a.s. .u.s.u.a.l.,. .U.N.L.A.M.B.D.A. .R.U.L.E.S. .!. .-.-. .M.X.K. 22:36:42 Gravity is older 22:37:27 aha 22:37:29 I think I know the bug oerjan 22:37:37 eval' s k (Apply (Dot a) b) = putChar a >> eval' s (\s' r -> k s' r) b 22:37:40 that's the wrong way around 22:39:18 wait 22:39:20 maybe not 22:39:43 with the side effect that it prints the character x (to the standard output) when it is applied 22:39:45 how vague 22:39:49 oerjan: is it before or after evaluation? 22:39:50 I think before 22:40:48 Hmmm... Corelife was a 2D language before Biota or Befunge 22:41:11 oerjan: AGH! Quine2 breaks as well 22:41:18 % ./unlambda Quine2.unl 22:41:18 i`.i```s``sv``si`k` 22:41:20 [...] 22:41:23 s``v.k`is``s`` 22:41:24 vs 22:41:28 % cat Quine2.unl 22:41:28 `.i```s``sv``si` 22:41:29 [...] 22:41:32 k.```s``si`k.vi 22:41:41 my evaluation order is wrong SOMEWHERE ... 22:41:57 * ehird_ grasps for straws 22:41:58 t :: UL -> UL -> UL -> UL 22:41:58 t a b c = Apply (Apply a c) (Apply b c) 22:42:01 .. that's wrong 22:42:03 isn't it 22:42:13 well 22:42:18 Sabc -> ac(bc) 22:42:19 so 22:42:26 ((ac)(bc)) 22:42:29 so nope, that's right. 22:42:35 -!- voidwalker has quit (Client Quit). 22:42:36 it's not the 2d-ness that's so great, it's the whole concept of not having jumps. 22:42:38 i mean 22:42:42 that's innovative 22:43:15 -!- oerjan has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:43:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:43:16 -!- Leonidas has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:43:29 oerjany hunches? 22:43:32 this is weird-ass. 22:43:50 oerjan - any hunches 22:43:50 heh 22:43:52 orejany XD 22:43:59 *oerjany 22:44:25 and brainfuck isn't a turing machine 22:44:31 befunge is closer to tm's. 22:44:48 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:44:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 22:44:48 -!- Leonidas has joined. 22:44:58 oerjan: any hunches, btw? 22:45:11 oerjan: do you have any hunches to share with us btw? 22:45:15 was just wondering 22:45:23 would be kinda nice to get some hunches around 22:45:26 you know 22:45:37 back to my readings ~> 22:46:16 wroom 22:46:49 a shouldn't be printed until after evaluation of b 22:46:54 in fact things would backwards if b prints 22:47:29 eval' s k (Apply (Dot a) b) = putChar a >> eval' s (\s' r -> k s' r) b 22:47:32 is that so? 22:47:38 well oerjan when I did that, every program started hanging and stuff 22:47:43 so you think it should be 22:47:49 eval' s (\s' r -> putChar a >> k s' r) b 22:47:52 ah, o 22:47:53 k 22:47:55 my mistake 22:47:56 here goes 22:48:21 IT WORKS 22:48:23 JOY TO THE WORLD 22:49:44 thanks oerjan! 22:50:04 basically, no function other than d has an effect when applied until after its argument is evaluated 22:50:34 yeah 22:50:36 ``ci`c`r`.!`.d`.l`.r`.o`.w`. `.,`.o`.l`.l`.e`.Hi 22:50:40 Infinite hello world works 22:51:19 oerjan: 22:51:23 with your self interpreter, 22:51:23 ``ci`c`r`.!`.d`.l`.r`.o`.w`. `.,`.o`.l`.l`.e`.Hi 22:51:25 just outputs 22:51:25 and count2? 22:51:28 ............. 22:51:28 ............. 22:51:29 ............. 22:51:32 ............. 22:51:34 ............. 22:51:36 forever 22:51:37 oerjan: yes, count2 works 22:51:38 oops 22:51:40 but your interpreter seems to output every char as .?? 22:51:50 oh 22:51:52 check | 22:52:27 | works 22:52:39 ``@`|ii 22:52:41 works fine 22:52:53 it is vital that it is applied after the @ that moves from . to the char 22:52:57 in my interpreter 22:53:25 if not, that could cause it to pick up . instead 22:53:39 am I meant to understand? 22:54:09 ehird_: there is probably an evaluation order problem that causes an | to be applied too late 22:54:14 *early 22:54:16 ah 22:54:30 oerjan: which function is | called nested in? 22:54:31 i mean 22:54:33 `f`|... 22:54:35 what is f 22:54:39 so I can check its evaluation 22:54:48 aha 22:54:51 hm no 22:54:59 oerjan: @ reads the character before evaluating its argument, right? 22:54:59 or not 22:55:01 I bet not 22:55:03 aight then 22:55:14 no! 22:55:23 fixing 22:55:24 basically, no function other than d has an effect when applied until after its argument is evaluated 22:55:30 yes yes 22:55:34 I had a brainfart 22:55:34 :P 22:55:45 ok I fixed it and it still outputs ............. 22:55:50 oops 22:55:51 as in, . in place of the chars 22:55:56 what oops now 22:56:02 your comment 22:56:08 ah 22:56:24 ?. 22:56:24 # ^q ^p ^r `| `$r k 22:56:24 `k `k ``s`k | ``si `kk 22:56:31 argh 22:56:38 aha, it's ? 22:56:46 no 22:56:55 that's a table 22:56:58 nope, it is 22:57:01 it's ? in my bug 22:57:05 err 22:57:05 oh right 22:57:06 ? is my bug 22:57:25 agh! it still happens 22:57:26 * ehird_ digs further 22:57:31 the actual code is being put together from a table 22:57:43 eval' s@(_,Just c) k (Apply Bar a) = eval' s k (Apply a (Dot c)) 22:57:44 those are like key and value part 22:57:47 hmm, nah 22:57:50 that's correct 22:58:06 um no 22:58:15 oh, right 22:58:19 the argument could change |s state 22:59:06 http://bethewumpus.sourceforge.net 22:59:07 fun 22:59:14 * AnMaster is downloading it atm 22:59:15 oklopol, i dont believe ehird is infact a girl 22:59:42 i believe that the evidence leaves no other possibility open! 23:00:33 if ehird is a girl she must have very small boobs! 23:00:35 oerjan: the self interpreter works 23:00:40 yes well 23:00:42 and actualyl seems to have very little overhead 23:00:47 * oerjan bounces around 23:00:48 i.e., it's only a few times slower than the actual interp 23:00:59 ehird_: i know 23:01:08 you optimized it? :P 23:01:28 no, but it uses a very simple encoding of unlambda into itself 23:01:33 anyway, there's 111 lines of clear haskell including a nice command line interface that runs unlambda quickly and efficiently 23:01:39 a job well done 23:01:59 yay for science 23:02:15 ehird_, pastebin it? 23:02:21 AnMaster: First, I'm going to bot it. 23:02:27 ehird_, why? 23:02:32 Because IRC bots are mandatory. 23:02:34 To confuse people, the prefix will be `. 23:02:34 yeah 23:02:36 `i 23:02:37 ``ii 23:02:38 haha 23:02:44 heh 23:02:44 genius 23:02:47 The unlambda programmers in the audience have now all died of shock 23:02:47 o 23:02:47 o 23:02:56 `oo 23:03:04 ehird_: also you should check e. it's the only command my interpreter doesn't use iirc :D 23:03:10 ````ooo`ooo 23:03:12 oerjan: e works, I think 23:03:56 ehird_, in that case, you should bot your haskell OS when you finished it :D 23:04:04 AnMaster: that would be rather difficult 23:04:09 PNG over IRC 23:04:13 * oklopol is going to start reading rwh on monday! 23:04:25 mv: `unlambda.hs' and `Unlambda.hs' are the same file 23:04:28 ehird_, well the text console only 23:04:32 THis is the one bad thing about case insensitive filesystems 23:04:36 (Tools that don't know shit about them) 23:04:42 AnMaster: Well sure 23:06:37 hmm 23:06:44 one bad thing about haskell: you can't import a module that can act as a program 23:06:53 that is, I can't have Unlambda.hs compile to a program and still be importable 23:06:56 since it has to be named Main 23:07:01 and you can't import Main from inside another Main (duh...) 23:07:06 if __name__ == '__main__': 23:07:13 lament: troll 23:07:20 why does it have to be named Main? 23:07:29 because you can give ghc multiple arguments 23:07:36 and it'll compile the one with the module Main. 23:07:57 ehird_: there is a --main-is flag though 23:08:08 oerjan: yeah but that's hack land 23:08:21 I'll just have Unlambda.hs, Main.hs and bot.hs 23:08:48 this seems to be yet more proof that haskell sucks 23:08:52 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1"). 23:09:01 lament: you're this far from my ignore list 23:11:37 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to eh. 23:11:39 -!- eh has changed nick to ehird. 23:12:01 impossible, you're not canadian! 23:14:40 dammit ghc, don't detect let loop = loop in loop 23:14:45 i'm trying to hang the program moron 23:14:54 i do not want to see: 23:14:57 % ./bot 23:14:57 bot: <> 23:15:01 BWAHAHAHA 23:15:06 if your halting checker is so clever MAYBE IMA GIVE YOU "P" 23:15:42 yay, 23:15:42 let complicatedLoop n = complicatedLoop (n+1) in complicatedLoop 1 23:15:44 works 23:15:52 ehird: how far? 23:16:02 lament: <- -> 23:16:09 that's pretty far 23:16:33 far out 23:17:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("godnatt"). 23:19:10 haskell code is so pretty 23:19:12 ok, bot coming through maybe 23:19:20 ASSUMING ALL GOES TO PLAN THAT IS. 23:19:26 WHICH IT ISN'T 23:19:40 NOW IT IS. PROBABLY. 23:19:45 -!- unlambda has joined. 23:19:48 :D 23:19:52 unlambda: you don't do anything yet 23:19:53 but that's okay. 23:20:32 haskell code is disgusting, it makes me puke 23:20:36 ``.?i 23:20:42 oerjan: "you don't do anything yet" 23:20:45 case in point 23:20:52 40 LET I =: I + 1 23:20:52 50 IF I <> 100000000 THEN 30 23:20:56 ugh 23:20:56 lament: haha 23:21:00 oerjan: also, howdya think I should handle input? 23:21:03 I DON'T BELIEVE YOU 23:21:10 I can't split on any character because of . and ? and that crap 23:21:13 hmm wait 23:21:16 I could run parsec on it, then get the rest 23:21:17 maybe 23:21:54 should be ok for a bot 23:21:59 no interactivity 23:21:59 lament, so what functional language do you prefer? 23:22:08 AnMaster: he's trolling/joking 23:22:12 AnMaster: lol 23:22:14 that code is basic in haskell 23:22:21 oerjan: naw, I wanna test IO 23:22:36 ehird, is he joking when he says he hate haskell? 23:22:41 AnMaster: kind of. 23:22:45 oh? 23:22:47 oerjan: admittedly currently my interp only does stdin/stdout IO 23:22:49 but I can change that 23:22:51 hmm 23:22:55 well then parsec is hard 23:22:56 maybe I could split on some arbitrary character 23:23:01 and just, like, don't use that 23:23:01 :D 23:23:03 ehird, there should be a bottifier 23:23:21 AnMaster: Haskell is the best programming language. 23:23:30 Except when you actually want to achieve something. Then use Python. 23:23:36 ehird, it would be some LD_PRELOADed thingy to redirect stdin/stdout to irc, with the needed parsing 23:23:41 lament is just pissy about sdl. 23:23:45 and ping handling and such 23:23:46 AnMaster: my interp loads from a file. 23:24:54 LD_PRELOAD=bottifier.so BOTTIFIER_SETTINGS="server=irc.freenode.net;channel=#esoteric;nick=unlambda;ident=unlambda;realname=unlambda;activator=` 23:24:57 or suc 23:25:10 congrats, in the time it took you to write that I could have finished this bot 23:25:11 :p 23:25:17 AnMaster: that doesn't handle the fact that: 23:25:21 1. my interp loads from a file 23:25:23 ehird, yeah it would be harder 23:25:26 2. you can't split on an arbitrary characters 23:25:26 ehird, hm true 23:25:34 this is domain specific enough that your idea is stupid. 23:25:37 also, why ld_prelude 23:25:43 why not, say, oh I don't know, a bidirectional pipe? 23:25:57 ehird, you could do that too, but it would work better on non-linux :P 23:26:16 and be less fun 23:37:22 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:38:09 oerjan: it's getting a bit ugly with custom IO functions :( 23:38:09 oh well 23:42:14 oerjan: now I have to give UL a Show instances :( 23:42:15 *instance 23:42:53 at this rate you'll end up with as long a program as mine... 23:43:06 indeed, but mine is easier to read and I think faster 23:43:08 but whatever 23:43:14 what's important is bottiness 23:43:41 why do you need a Show instance? 23:43:47 to show the result to irc 23:44:12 i suppose 23:46:00 what's the irc length limit? 23:46:42 meh 23:46:45 400 chars will do 23:48:47 Whoah, I think I finally understand monads! 23:48:50 argh 23:48:56 but not how to paste 23:49:30 hah 23:49:57 "Whoah, I think I finally understand monads!" - "That's indigestion. It will pass." 23:50:06 (reddit comments) 23:50:23 :DD 23:50:59 okay 23:51:00 who wants 23:51:04 BOTTACULARITY 23:51:18 no one knows 23:51:36 because we don't know what the hell that means 23:51:39 i don't understand monads :( 23:52:35 why are monads interesting to category theory? 23:53:06 supermonad 23:53:09 heck if i know 23:53:23 except every pair of adjoint functors give a monad 23:53:25 wtf: 23:53:26 pULWithInput :: Parser (UL,String) 23:53:27 pULWithInput = 23:53:29 do r <- pUL 23:53:31 (do char '!'; i <- getInput; return (r,i)) 23:53:33 <|> (do eof; return (r,"")) 23:53:35 oerjan: in the latter one, r isn't in scope 23:53:37 what gives 23:53:41 and every monad comes from at least one such pair 23:53:44 pULWithInput <<< is the p hungarian notation? 23:53:50 oklopol: yeah, for parser 23:53:53 since it's clash 23:53:56 *it'd 23:53:58 in Unlambda 23:54:01 so I just did it on the rest too 23:54:03 ehird: indentation error 23:54:11 oerjan: ff 23:54:14 how am I meant to indent that 23:54:38 add a bit space before <|> 23:54:59 -!- leeguy92 has quit (Connection timed out). 23:55:37 incidentally, "pul" means "fuck" in norwegian 23:56:02 oh 23:56:05 good to know 23:56:48 fuck with input 23:56:49 :D 23:56:57 especially for swedes. in swedish it means something completely innocious. 23:57:06 *innocuous 23:57:25 bot: bot.hs:56:8-50: Irrefutable pattern failed for pattern Data.Maybe.Just (Network.IRC.Base.Message _ cmd args) 23:57:29 Bollocks. 23:57:49 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:58:46 -!- unlambda has joined. 23:58:48 `i 23:58:53 ;_; 23:59:03 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:59:17 -!- unlambda has joined. 23:59:18 `i 23:59:30 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:59:49 Test time 23:59:57 -!- unlambda has joined. 2009-02-07: 00:00:05 `i 00:00:13 wtf nuggets 00:00:24 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:00:38 oh 00:01:07 -!- unlambda has joined. 00:01:09 `i 00:01:12 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:01:23 ... yikes, issue 00:04:15 here goes 00:04:22 -!- unlambda has joined. 00:04:23 `i 00:04:23 ! Result: i 00:04:26 Fuck yes 00:04:27 oerjan: 00:04:29 ``ii 00:04:30 ! Result: i 00:04:39 ``|ii!h 00:04:39 "" (line 1, column 4): 00:04:39 unexpected "i" 00:04:39 expecting "!" or end of input 00:04:43 ```|ii!h 00:04:44 ! Result: v 00:04:48 ... 00:04:51 Hunh. 00:04:56 O H 00:05:02 Wait. 00:05:03 Hunh. 00:05:19 Oh 00:05:30 ```@`|ii!h 00:05:31 ! Result: v 00:05:33 ff 00:05:35 oerjan: test it for me :P 00:06:34 ``.o`.l`.l`.e`.Hi 00:06:34 Hello! Result: i 00:06:47 ok, output works 00:06:49 just not input? 00:07:01 ```@`|ii!H 00:07:02 ! Result: v 00:07:17 PRINTF DEBUG TIME 00:07:18 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:07:32 -!- unlambda has joined. 00:07:42 ```@`|ii!H 00:07:42 ! Result: v 00:07:49 :ehird!n=ehird@eso-std.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :```@`|ii!H 00:07:49 "H" 00:07:51 that's a start 00:07:58 -!- Mony has quit ("night"). 00:08:59 oh 00:09:05 wat 00:09:20 oerjan: ? 00:09:26 ```@|i!H 00:09:27 H! Result: i 00:09:32 ahhh 00:09:33 yay 00:09:43 note: infinite loops will lock it up 00:09:48 so, don't do that 00:10:13 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:10:54 ````si`k``s.H``s.e``s.l``s.l``s.o``s. ``s.w``s.o``s.r``s.l``s.d``s.!``sri``si``si``si``si``si``si``si``si`ki 00:10:55 Hello world! 00:10:55 Hello world! 00:10:55 Hello world! 00:10:55 Hello world! 00:10:55 Hello world! 00:10:56 Hello world! 00:10:58 Hello world! 00:11:00 Hello world! 00:11:02 ! Result: i 00:11:07 oklopol: 00:11:21 ```d.v```s``si`kv``si`k`d`..`.c`.s`.``.``.s`.``.`v``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc.d``s``sc..``s``sc.v``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc.s``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc.s``s``sc.i``s``sc.```s``sc.k``s``sc.v``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc.s``s``sc.i``s``sc.```s``sc.k``s``sc.```s``sc.d``s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc..``s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.c``s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.s``s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.s``s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.```s 00:11:21 "" (line 1, column 458): 00:11:21 unexpected end of input 00:11:21 expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`" 00:11:24 ``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.```s``sc.vv 00:11:24 "" (line 1, column 4): 00:11:24 unexpected "." 00:11:24 expecting "!" or end of input 00:11:26 agh. 00:11:28 f 00:11:47 i don't think it's "witty", i think your primary asset is you look at the big picture; of course that doesn't always apply, but from thinking up examples of the kind of behavior (which i'm not going to share), that one sounds the closest. 00:11:57 oklopol: wow, that's some delayed reply 00:12:01 *the kind of behavior i mean 00:12:15 sure. 00:12:24 my brain works slowly and concurrently. 00:12:41 ``r```si`k``s``s`kk`si``s``si`k``s`k`s`k``sk``sr`k.*ir``si``si``si``si``si``si``si``si``si`k`ki 00:12:41 * 00:12:41 ** 00:12:41 ** 00:12:41 *** 00:12:41 *** 00:12:42 *** 00:12:44 **** 00:12:46 **** 00:12:48 **** 00:12:50 **** 00:12:52 ***** 00:12:54 ***** 00:12:56 ***** 00:12:58 ***** 00:13:00 ***** 00:13:02 ****** 00:13:04 ****** 00:13:06 ****** 00:13:06 cool stuff 00:13:08 ****** 00:13:09 doesn't lambdabot have an unlambda plugin? 00:13:10 ****** 00:13:12 ****** 00:13:14 ******* 00:13:15 lament: dunno 00:13:16 ******* 00:13:17 * ehird removes printf debugging 00:13:18 ******* 00:13:18 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:13:32 -!- unlambda has joined. 00:13:39 `````````` 00:13:39 "" (line 1, column 10): 00:13:39 unexpected end of input 00:13:39 expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`" 00:13:46 wow that's annoying. 00:13:53 lament: it didn't have an interpreter for that plugin to call last i checked 00:13:53 don't do that then 00:14:04 ``heh 00:14:04 "" (line 1, column 5): 00:14:04 unexpected end of input 00:14:04 expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`" 00:14:12 lament: how often do you start a line with 00:14:12 ` 00:14:12 "" (line 1, column 1): 00:14:13 unexpected end of input 00:14:13 expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`" 00:14:34 ```|`@ii 00:14:34 ! Result: v 00:14:37 ```|`@ii!a 00:14:37 a! Result: i 00:14:39 lament: all lambdabots esolang interps cause broken pipes ime. 00:14:41 `To be or not to be, that is the question' -- Shakespeare 00:14:41 "" (line 1, column 57): 00:14:42 unexpected end of input 00:14:42 expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`" 00:14:52 lament: don't use ``faggot quotes'' :-P 00:15:36 ````@i`k|ei 00:15:36 "" (line 1, column 10): 00:15:36 unexpected "i" 00:15:36 expecting "!" or end of input 00:15:40 oops 00:15:46 ``ii 00:15:46 ```sii``sii 00:15:47 ! Result: i 00:15:47 "" (line 1, column 6): 00:15:47 unexpected "`" 00:15:47 expecting "!" or end of input 00:15:54 don't, lament. 00:16:13 QA is in my blood. 00:16:20 `````@i`k|ei 00:16:21 ! Result: v 00:16:23 `````@i`k|ei!a 00:16:23 ! Result: .a 00:16:30 oh dear. 00:16:40 ``````@i`k|eii!a 00:16:41 a! Result: i 00:16:58 ``ci`c`````@i`k|eii!abc 00:16:58 "" (line 1, column 4): 00:16:58 unexpected "`" 00:16:58 expecting "!" or end of input 00:16:58 `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 00:16:59 "" (line 1, column 152): 00:16:59 unexpected end of input 00:16:59 expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`" 00:17:06 ```ci`c`````@i`k|eii!abc 00:17:06 abc! Result: v 00:17:26 `vv 00:17:26 "" (line 1, column 2): 00:17:26 unexpected "v" 00:17:26 expecting "!" or end of input 00:17:28 ``ci`cX + e makes programming unlambda a sinch. 00:17:28 "" (line 1, column 4): 00:17:28 unexpected "`" 00:17:28 expecting "!" or end of input 00:17:33 lament: you have to put an extra ` in front. 00:17:35 ``vv 00:17:35 ! Result: v 00:17:40 oh 00:17:44 it's to confuse people 00:17:47 so the first ` is not part of the unlambda program? 00:17:49 i see 00:17:56 `v 00:17:56 ! Result: v 00:18:05 ````ci`c`@|i!hello 00:18:05 hello! Result: v 00:18:10 is v lazy? 00:18:13 lament: nope 00:18:15 nothing but d is lazy 00:18:18 mwahaha 00:18:19 ``d``sii 00:18:20 ! Result: `d``sii 00:18:38 i'm gonna add a time limmit 00:18:42 so you can do infinite shtuffs 00:18:44 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:20:25 here goes 00:20:33 -!- unlambda has joined. 00:20:35 ```sii 00:20:35 ! Result: ``sii 00:20:38 ... 00:20:40 lol vat 00:20:53 ``vv 00:20:53 ! Result: v 00:20:57 , ok, what 00:21:00 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:21:07 lol 00:21:10 ``sii terminates in my interp 00:21:11 wtf 00:21:13 oh wait 00:21:16 it's ```sii``sii 00:21:33 -!- unlambda has joined. 00:21:34 ````sii``sii 00:21:35 ! Result: 00:21:38 ````dies 00:21:39 ! Result: s 00:21:44 hmm 00:21:54 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:22:05 miscalculated the timeout 00:22:07 -!- unlambda has joined. 00:22:16 ````sii``sii 00:22:27 ! Result: 00:22:34 Et voila. 00:22:59 oerjan: link to your archive mirror? 00:23:36 oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/unlambda-mirror 00:25:04 ````sii``si``s`k`d`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n.Ui 00:25:20 Come to think of it, that'll generate enough output to excess flood in 10 seconds. 00:25:24 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:25:29 Stack space overflow: current size 8388608 bytes. 00:25:29 Use `+RTS -Ksize' to increase it. 00:25:31 wow. 00:25:43 So um hey guys :) :) :) 00:25:54 * ehird limits output to 2500 charz 00:27:17 -!- unlambda has joined. 00:27:18 ````sii``si``s`k`d`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n.Ui 00:27:19 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:29:28 -!- unlambda has joined. 00:29:29 ````sii``si``s`k`d`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n.Ui 00:29:29 -!- unlambda has quit (Excess Flood). 00:29:32 agh 00:30:19 -!- unlambda has joined. 00:30:20 ````sii``si``s`k`d`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n.Ui 00:30:20 nlambda, c'est trivial! 00:30:20 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:30:20 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:30:20 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:30:20 -!- unlambda has quit (Excess Flood). 00:30:43 o 00:30:57 tempora 00:32:03 -!- unlambda has joined. 00:32:04 ````sii``si``s`k`d`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n.Ui 00:32:04 nlambda, c'est trivial! 00:32:05 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:32:05 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:32:06 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:32:06 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:32:08 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:32:10 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:32:12 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:32:14 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:32:16 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:32:18 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:32:20 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:32:22 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:32:23 ah. I see the problem. 00:32:24 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:32:26 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:32:28 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:32:29 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:32:54 -!- unlambda has joined. 00:32:56 ````sii``si``s`k`d`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n.Ui 00:32:57 nlambda, c'est trivial! 00:32:57 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:32:58 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:32:58 Unlambda, c'est trivial! 00:32:59 U! Result: 00:33:03 Tada. 00:33:48 nlambda? 00:34:14 north love american man boy dog association? 00:34:14 lament: program's fault. 00:34:16 ````s``s``sii`ki`k.*``s``s`ks``s`k`s`ks``s``s`ks``s`k`s`kr``s`k`sikk`k``s`ksk 00:34:17 * 00:34:17 * 00:34:18 ** 00:34:18 *! Result: 00:34:33 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:34:41 let's try that again 00:35:02 -!- unlambda has joined. 00:35:03 ````s``s``sii`ki`k.*``s``s`ks``s`k`s`ks``s``s`ks``s`k`s`kr``s`k`sikk`k``s`ksk 00:35:03 * 00:35:04 * 00:35:04 ** 00:35:05 *** 00:35:05 ***** 00:35:07 * Result: 00:35:25 ```r`cd`.*`cd 00:35:26 * 00:35:26 ** 00:35:27 *** 00:35:27 **** 00:35:28 ***** 00:35:28 * Result: 00:35:35 ` 00:35:36 "" (line 1, column 1): 00:35:36 unexpected end of input 00:35:37 expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`" 00:36:12 ```@i`ci 00:36:13 Result: v 00:36:15 ```@i`ci!a 00:36:15 Result: * 00:36:25 ````@i`cii 00:36:26 Result: v 00:36:27 ````@i`cii! 00:36:28 Result: v 00:36:29 ````@i`cii!a 00:36:29 Result: i 00:36:31 `.`i 00:36:31 ````@i`cii!ab 00:36:32 "" (line 1, column 3): 00:36:32 unexpected "i" 00:36:33 expecting "!" or end of input 00:36:33 Result: i 00:36:33 ```eek 00:36:34 Result: e 00:36:39 ``.`i 00:36:39 ` Result: i 00:36:41 ``ei 00:36:41 Result: i 00:36:48 ``k`ei 00:36:49 Result: i 00:36:54 ``c`ei 00:36:54 Result: i 00:36:57 ``ce 00:36:57 Result: * 00:37:04 * = continuation, ofc. 00:37:06 ``sk 00:37:06 Result: `sk 00:37:12 ``cs 00:37:12 Result: `s* 00:37:43 ``k`ci`ci 00:37:44 "" (line 1, column 6): 00:37:44 unexpected "`" 00:37:45 expecting "!" or end of input 00:37:50 ``k``ci`ci 00:38:00 ``.?i 00:38:01 Result: 00:38:02 ? Result: i 00:38:02 ```sick 00:38:03 "" (line 1, column 6): 00:38:03 unexpected "k" 00:38:04 expecting "!" or end of input 00:38:05 ``.a``ci`ci 00:38:08 ``.`i 00:38:09 ````sick 00:38:13 stop flooding it 00:38:16 Result: 00:38:16 ` Result: i 00:38:17 Result: `k`k* 00:38:18 it does one prog at a time 00:38:18 :P 00:38:37 ``.``.`.`.`.`.`.`.`.`.i 00:38:38 "" (line 1, column 9): 00:38:38 unexpected "." 00:38:39 expecting "!" or end of input 00:38:44 er duh 00:39:05 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:39:10 multithreaded now 00:39:18 -!- unlambda has joined. 00:39:20 ```.ai``ci`ci 00:39:30 a Result: 00:39:31 `````creed 00:39:31 * ehird thumbs twiddle 00:39:31 Result: e 00:39:39 ``cc 00:39:39 Result: * 00:39:41 ``ci 00:39:41 Result: * 00:39:47 ``cd 00:39:48 Result: `d* 00:39:54 is that correct? 00:39:55 I think so 00:40:02 ```cd 00:40:02 "" (line 1, column 5): 00:40:02 unexpected end of input 00:40:03 expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`" 00:40:03 ```cdc 00:40:04 Result: * 00:40:08 ```cd`cd 00:40:18 Result: 00:40:37 ``ci`.ai 00:40:37 "" (line 1, column 4): 00:40:38 unexpected "`" 00:40:38 expecting "!" or end of input 00:40:40 ```ci`.ai 00:40:41 aa Result: i 00:40:47 ```ci`.ac 00:40:47 aa Result: * 00:40:49 ```ci`.a`ci 00:40:50 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 00:40:51 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 00:40:51 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 00:40:53 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 00:40:57 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 00:41:01 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 00:41:05 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 00:41:05 ... and the result? 00:41:08 Oh my. 00:41:09 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Result: 00:41:23 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:41:31 Tightening up output limits a bit. 00:41:36 -!- unlambda has joined. 00:41:37 ```ci`.a`ci 00:41:37 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 00:41:38 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 00:41:39 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 00:41:43 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 00:41:47 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 00:41:51 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Result: 00:42:18 ``.a``ci`ci 00:42:28 Result: 00:42:35 oh, duh 00:42:41 ```.a`ci`ci 00:42:42 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 00:42:42 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 00:42:43 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 00:42:45 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 00:42:49 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 00:42:53 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Result: 00:43:03 In this context, I think c is non-functional. You can put a continuation thingy in the middle of an expression, and it can "reach out" around it. 00:43:51 Do you guys want me to leave this up overnight? 00:43:52 well duh 00:44:07 oerjan: what was that a duh to 00:44:13 the first 00:44:18 Ah. 00:44:21 The latter? 00:44:35 not particularly 00:44:47 :< 00:44:50 Tough, you're getting it. 00:44:51 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:45:34 Fuck that, there's no cabal-install in ubuntu repos. 00:45:37 Yer not getting it. 00:45:46 byebye 00:49:11 gaaaay 01:20:20 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 01:37:44 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:26:53 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 03:06:12 (lament : you called ?) 05:26:55 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 06:09:22 YOU AINT MAH BITCH NIGGA GETCHYO OWN DAMN FRIES 06:47:20 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:47:49 My dad's taking the computer away, so bye all 06:50:19 -!- Sgeo has quit (Client Quit). 06:50:45 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:53:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Client Quit). 07:06:28 -!- ab5tract has joined. 07:08:29 -!- icefox has joined. 07:10:09 Have any of you guys played with the BF Joust Hill? 07:11:04 Saw it on http://retrocode.blogspot.com/2009/02/bf-joust-hill.html and been messing around with it for a few hours and was looking for some more information 07:41:06 yes 07:52:07 -!- ab5tract has quit. 07:53:31 bsmntbombdood: has the code for any of the joust[0-9] been posted anywhere? 07:53:47 dunno 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:25:34 -!- ab5tract has joined. 08:29:48 -!- ab5tract has quit (Client Quit). 08:33:17 -!- ab5tract has joined. 09:22:20 I completely loose against joust6,joust12,woggle_050109_1,woggle_050109_2 and comex_241208_2... and completely win against everyone else... With completely, I mean 20-0 or 19-1. 09:22:26 comex_241208_2 because of time :P 09:32:59 -!- ab5tract has quit. 09:33:32 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:36:52 -!- Mony has joined. 09:39:38 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 09:53:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 11:11:20 -!- Mony has quit ("@plouche"). 11:50:00 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:52:07 -!- Hiato has joined. 11:57:29 i should send a SNUSP Hello World! program to http://www.roesler-ac.de/wolfram/hello.htm 11:57:44 i can't find any snusp hello world programs 12:01:40 -!- kwufo has joined. 12:03:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:04:54 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 12:05:24 -!- Hiato has joined. 12:10:19 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:12:57 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 12:13:31 -!- Hiato has joined. 12:14:35 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 12:15:11 -!- whoppix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:15:38 -!- whoppix has joined. 12:23:09 MizardX: When I run my program against joust12 I get a -1. The only time I see -1 is when I write a program without matching brackets. Is there another case? 12:35:11 No idea 12:37:54 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:43:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:44:12 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 12:49:50 -!- jix has joined. 12:53:08 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 13:03:21 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:05:16 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:09:20 -!- Hiato has joined. 13:22:07 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 13:47:11 o 14:15:45 -!- Mony has joined. 14:28:41 -!- alex89ru has joined. 14:28:42 hi 14:34:21 icefox: yes, the joust0-9 code has been posted 14:34:24 I'll dig it up in a bit 14:34:25 My dad's taking the computer away, so bye all 14:34:27 wait, forever? 14:34:29 bye sgeo.. 14:39:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:41:02 icefox: http://pastie.org/382513.txt?key=bwmridu9i0kak8xgu2gycg 14:41:03 joust0-9 14:48:13 -!- icefox has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:49:48 -!- icefox has joined. 15:20:18 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 15:21:41 MizardX: my new hg repo http://78.46.37.210:8080/ 15:22:04 hg repo for a small one-file interpreter? ah, the overengineering stage :-) 15:23:09 ... It occurs to me I'm sitting in #corewars and haven't ever played corewars. 15:23:58 ehird: i changed the file 135 times ! 15:24:10 KingOfKarlsruhe: major changes? if so, wow 15:26:37 wow that was one crazy bug, was using kate, had several files open, switched to another tab, used ctrl-f to find something, started typing, and the text ended up in the tab I was in before this one... 15:26:42 unable to reproduce.. 15:28:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:45:00 -!- Hiato has quit (Connection timed out). 15:47:19 Huh. 15:47:43 Google groups lets you subscribe to a usenet group via mail as daily digest & per-25 email digest, but not one-email-per-message. 15:47:59 That's kind of silly. I want to use usenet groups like mailing lists. 15:50:17 it used to have one-email-per-message, I think 15:50:27 Why did they stop? Server load? 15:50:37 could explain why emails via a.l.i seem to be delayed a day for me 15:50:40 and probably 15:50:59 I'm sure some usenet provider offers mailing lists for newsgroups, but probably for $$$. 15:51:05 (and they all suck compared to Google Groups...) 15:51:11 err, free ones 15:51:11 that is 15:51:15 paid ones are better than google groups 15:51:39 ais523: ... I just realised. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.intercal/topics 15:51:48 There were only like 20 posts in 2008! 15:51:57 it's a strange newsgroup 15:52:01 people hardly ever post 15:52:05 but it's known to have a lot of readers 15:52:10 ehird, just use your own usenet client :) 15:52:15 whenever people post "is this newsgroup dead" you get a lot of people saying no 15:52:29 ais523, also I get lot of spam on a.l.i on the server I read it on 15:52:30 it's effectively become the C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL new version announcement mailing list 15:52:30 AnMaster: I use gmail for all mail. Newsgroups are just mailing lists run by dinosaurs. 15:52:32 maybe google filter that 15:52:38 AnMaster: there's a lot of spam on a.l.i even on Google 15:52:42 mhm 15:52:45 although I think they filter out some of it 15:52:57 ehird: Usenet has the advantage of not being centralised 15:53:04 ais523: yes, I'm just being flippant 15:53:13 at least, I am if I remember what flippant means correctly. 15:53:26 no, apparently not 15:53:33 * ehird feels his memory slipping 15:54:07 but, yes, there's no reason to treat usenet differently from mailing lists bar binary groups 15:54:21 and using binary groups is fundamentally different anyway 16:02:39 hm 16:02:44 I wonder how to do this 16:02:48 it is like backwards grep 16:02:59 backwards grep? 16:03:19 I have a long list of items to find and a huge list of files to find it in. But I want to find all entries in the first list that are NOT in any of the files 16:03:40 I think grep has an option to do that 16:03:47 hm 16:04:01 actually, that's the reverse of what grep does 16:04:06 exactly 16:04:07 you can find files that don't contain an item 16:04:14 but not items that aren't contained in a file 16:04:20 although grep and for should do it between them 16:04:21 well it is the latter that I need 16:04:27 hm 16:05:11 ais523, would be painfully slow because the list of files is too much to fit into cache at once 16:05:30 as in about a GB of files 16:05:32 wow 16:05:32 AnMaster: grep -v 16:05:42 grep -v inverts the pattern 16:05:44 ehird, no... read what the question was 16:05:47 ehird: nope, that's not what AnMaster's asking for 16:05:50 what is it, then 16:05:57 he wants something like grep -q 16:06:03 but with multiple different things to search for 16:06:03 use grep -q? :P 16:06:05 ah. 16:06:13 AnMaster: use fgrep 16:06:15 so you could grep -q each of them individually, but that would be massively slow 16:06:17 unless you really need a regex 16:06:30 ehird, that doesn't give me a list of search terms not found in any of the files. 16:06:33 hmm... it's only a few lines in Perl 16:06:39 AnMaster: how many search terms are there? 16:06:48 AnMaster: nor does it supply you with a pony 16:06:48 ais523, around 10 000 16:06:53 um. 16:06:55 get a supercomputer. 16:07:10 unless you can wait like a week. 16:07:15 actually, 9862 16:07:21 supercomputer 16:07:27 ehird, non are regex 16:07:30 all are fixed strings 16:07:31 supercomputer 16:07:56 I'm bringing the unlambda bot back because I want to. 16:07:59 -!- unlambda has joined. 16:08:02 `i 16:08:02 Result: i 16:08:16 for x in searchtermlist; do grep -q $x filelist || echo $x; done 16:08:20 ````si`k``s.H``s.e``s.l``s.l``s.o``s. ``s.w``s.o``s.r``s.l``s.d``s.!``sri``si``si``si``si``si``si``si``si`ki 16:08:20 Hello world! 16:08:21 Hello world! 16:08:21 Hello world! 16:08:22 Hello world! 16:08:22 Hello world! 16:08:23 Hello world! 16:08:23 but that's likely to be too slow 16:08:23 H Result: 16:08:37 maybe tokenising the data I want to grep and importing it into a sql database (I know all strings I want to search for a whole words) and then using some sort of sql search would be faster 16:08:43 because it reads each file once for each search term 16:09:09 AnMaster: if you're going that crazy, why not cat together all the files first, then just search in the resulting massive file? 16:09:21 hm, maybe 16:09:21 or use a hash 16:09:23 ```ci`c`r`.!`.d`.l`.r`.o`.w`. `.,`.o`.l`.l`.e`.Hi 16:09:24 Hello, world! 16:09:24 Hello, world! 16:09:24 Hello, world! 16:09:25 table 16:09:25 Hello, world! 16:09:25 Hello, world! 16:09:26 Hello, world! 16:09:27 H Result: 16:09:50 ais523, well maybe, though the sql one was (half) a joke... 16:09:50 AnMaster: what do you mean by "whole word" 16:09:54 space-delimited? 16:09:56 ```ci`c.* 16:09:56 ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** 16:09:57 ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** 16:09:58 ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** 16:09:59 ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** 16:10:01 Er. 16:10:03 ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** 16:10:04 ais523, space, or other non-alphanumeric 16:10:04 Sorry. 16:10:06 I think I might know how to do this in Perl, which is designed for that sort of thing 16:10:07 ****************************************************************************************** Result: 16:10:17 AnMaster: hmm... that'll be slower as you'd need to regex match to find word boundaries 16:10:21 ais523, such as a ( after the word counts as delimiter. 16:10:24 or do some other complicated thing 16:10:25 while a _ doesn't 16:11:01 ais523, in fact anything that can be a valid C delimiter around a C symbol 16:11:07 how important are the delimiting semantics to you? would you be willing to compromise slightly to search faster? 16:11:10 (such as a variable, function, macro name or so) 16:11:24 yes I'm searching 1 GB of C source. Correct. 16:11:39 just out of interest, what exactly are you trying to do? 16:11:45 actually du -bsh says 993 MB 16:12:04 what ais523 said 16:12:09 you probably don't need to do this 16:12:11 ais523, find a list of symbols not used in a certain huge C source set 16:12:12 in fact, almost certainly. 16:12:16 AnMaster: why? 16:12:19 AnMaster: what are you trying to achive 16:12:36 hmm... maybe he wants to see which parts of a library he can remove, on the basis that nobody at all is using them 16:12:43 and has copies of all the source anywhere that uses the library 16:12:47 ais523, 1) library exporting lots of functions 2) application using it 3) some could go static, figure out which ones. 16:12:57 talk about overengineering 16:13:02 do you really need to do this? 16:13:08 AnMaster: mightn't compiling it and using nm work? 16:13:18 ais523, hm maybe... interesting idea 16:13:21 ... 16:13:25 you mean REALLY OBVIOUS idea? 16:13:28 You didn't try that? Sheesh. 16:13:38 then I could nm the application and diff the lists 16:13:39 :) 16:13:45 WOW REALLY? 16:13:48 How did you think of that. 16:13:56 ehird, no need to go ironic. 16:14:08 That was sarcasm, Alanis 16:14:33 "Alanis"? 16:14:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:14:43 Interwebs meme. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironic_(song) 16:14:48 (It's ironic because it's not ironic.) 16:15:56 actually comm, not diff 16:16:29 -!- ab5tract has joined. 16:20:17 now it would be nice to see which of those symbols are used in more than one file in the library, which is smaller (and the list is also smaller, just around 700 entries, on around 80 MB source code) so *tries to work out how to find out that* 16:20:27 ````ssss 16:20:28 Result: ``ss`ss 16:20:33 ````ssks 16:20:33 Result: ``ss`ks 16:20:39 `````ssksi 16:20:40 Result: ``sis 16:20:50 `ss 16:20:50 "" (line 1, column 2): 16:20:51 unexpected "s" 16:20:52 expecting "!" or end of input 16:20:54 ``````ssss.a.b 16:20:54 aab Result: ``s.b.b 16:20:55 oh, duh 16:20:56 ``ss 16:20:56 Result: `ss 16:21:11 ``ci`cv 16:21:11 "" (line 1, column 4): 16:21:12 unexpected "`" 16:21:13 expecting "!" or end of input 16:21:14 ```ci`cv 16:21:14 Result: v 16:21:23 err, duh, that's ``civ 16:21:43 the ``ci`c(EXPR) trick is really useful, though 16:22:01 ````ci`c`@|i!hello 16:22:02 hello Result: v 16:22:06 fun GNU grep has an option "--mmap" 16:22:11 ````ci`c`@|i 16:22:11 Result: v 16:22:23 is ```ci`c`@|i a well-known unlambda cat? 16:22:24 I haven't seen it before 16:22:29 I think all the others are much longer 16:22:37 BTW, this is the haskell unlambda interp I wrote yesterday 16:22:46 code was clean until I hooked it up to IRC (custom stdin/stdout...) 16:22:49 now it's ugly, but meh. 16:22:50 It's fat. 16:22:51 *fast 16:22:51 that's a pretty clever cat 16:22:55 yes 16:23:01 what's the shortest sii-based one? 16:23:07 dunno, long 16:23:14 it's hard to loop in unlambda without c 16:23:17 with c, it's trivial 16:23:21 -!- ab5tract has quit. 16:23:30 hmm... what do @ and | do again? 16:23:40 `@X reads a char, if at EOF, does `Xv 16:23:40 "" (line 1, column 2): 16:23:41 unexpected "X" 16:23:41 expecting "!" or end of input 16:23:43 otherwise, does `Xi 16:23:58 `|X does `X.Y 16:23:58 "" (line 1, column 2): 16:23:59 unexpected "X" 16:23:59 expecting "!" or end of input 16:24:01 where Y = the current character 16:24:22 but yeah, for looping just do (``ci`cX), where X is v whenever you want to stop, and the function you want when you want to continue 16:24:26 then you can just apply that as you want 16:24:32 kind of cheating, but useful 16:24:49 that's not cheating, except that it doesn't let you pass information out 16:24:55 without messing with a third continuation 16:25:12 ``@|i!foo 16:25:13 "" (line 1, column 4): 16:25:14 unexpected "i" 16:25:14 expecting "!" or end of input 16:25:17 you need an extra ` 16:25:18 ```@|i!foo 16:25:18 f Result: i 16:25:22 ` is just the prefix, to confuse people 16:25:22 "" (line 1, column 3): 16:25:23 unexpected "s" 16:25:23 expecting "!" or end of input 16:25:27 ehird: yes, figured 16:25:33 ais523: what i mean is, continuations for control flow feels like cheatin 16:25:33 g 16:25:34 and it makes discussing unlambda pretty tricky 16:25:37 in unlambda 16:25:45 since it's not as "pure" and hard as ski 16:25:54 ehird: Unlambda never was pure 16:25:58 well, yes 16:26:03 still doesn't mean you shouldn't aim for purity 16:26:12 ```r`cd`.*`cd 16:26:12 * 16:26:13 ** 16:26:13 *** 16:26:14 **** 16:26:15 ***** 16:26:15 * Result: 16:26:18 i love that program 16:26:23 ```sii`@|!hello 16:26:23 "" (line 1, column 6): 16:26:24 unexpected "`" 16:26:24 expecting "!" or end of input 16:26:28 it can be shortened though 16:26:29 wow, find lib -name '*.c' -exec grep -Fof non-shared_common.txt {} + | awk -F: '{print $2" "$1}' | sort -n | uniq | cut -d' ' -f1 | uniq -d 16:26:29 ``sii`@|!hello 16:26:30 I beleive. 16:26:30 "" (line 1, column 4): 16:26:30 :D 16:26:30 unexpected "i" 16:26:31 expecting "!" or end of input 16:26:31 *believe 16:26:33 ````sii`@|!hello 16:26:34 h Result: .h 16:26:42 -!- whoppix has quit ("Verlassend"). 16:26:42 for one, it doesn't actually use any properties of d 16:26:48 ais523, like that line ^ 16:26:50 ```r`ci`.*`i 16:26:51 "" (line 1, column 12): 16:26:51 unexpected end of input 16:26:52 expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`" 16:26:53 also works 16:26:54 er 16:27:01 o_O 16:27:03 ```r`ci`.*`i 16:27:03 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH 16:27:04 "" (line 1, column 12): 16:27:04 unexpected end of input 16:27:05 expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`" 16:27:08 Unlambda D: 16:27:08 then I use comm to find what entries it didn't find 16:27:12 ```r`cd`.*`cd 16:27:12 * 16:27:13 ** 16:27:13 *** 16:27:14 **** 16:27:14 ***** 16:27:15 * Result: 16:27:16 Slereah2: why do you dislike it so much? 16:27:16 oh right 16:27:19 ```r`ci`.*`ci 16:27:20 * 16:27:20 ** 16:27:21 *** 16:27:21 **** 16:27:23 ***** 16:27:25 * Result: 16:27:33 ```r`ci`.*i 16:27:33 ais523 : Eagerness. 16:27:33 * 16:27:34 * Result: i 16:27:41 ais523, ? 16:27:49 AnMaster: ? 16:27:57 ```ci`c`r`.*i 16:27:57 * 16:27:58 * 16:27:58 * 16:27:59 * 16:27:59 * 16:28:00 * 16:28:00 ais523, see above 16:28:01 * Result: 16:28:02 oops. 16:28:06 Slereah2: being eager lets you mess about with continuations, though 16:28:11 er 16:28:13 ehird, can you make it not output as many lines? 16:28:15 you can have continuations in a lazy language, ais523 16:28:17 AnMaster: no. 16:28:21 ehird, why not? 16:28:25 ais523 : I still don't know what continuation is, though 16:28:25 ehird: I know, but you can't mess about with them as easily 16:28:27 AnMaster: because it's useful to see more output on most programs 16:28:31 (Don't try to explain, no matter) 16:28:35 Slereah2: learn now 16:28:45 if you've never come across continuations, your programming experience is incomplete 16:28:46 ais523, well? 16:28:55 AnMaster: I don't see what I'm meant to say in reply 16:28:58 ais523 : I'm a scientist damn it! 16:29:01 it looks like a typical UNIX piped command 16:29:05 All we do is crunch numbers :o 16:29:07 ais523, I just thought that line was rather cleaver 16:29:41 it wasn't cleaver, it wasn't clever either 16:29:43 what was clever about it 16:29:45 ````sii```sii`@|!hello 16:29:45 hh Result: .h 16:29:47 it was a typical boring unix pipeline 16:30:09 this reminds me of a time when I had to do something at University 16:30:16 ehird, no it was using a rather interesting way of using uniq 16:30:18 the lecturer had given us a C program to do some text processing task 16:30:22 AnMaster: maybe if you've never used uniq. 16:30:25 and it wasn't a very interesting or efficient one 16:30:39 so I set it running, and wrote a UNIX pipeline that did the same thing while it was running 16:30:39 ehird, I have used it, but yeah I know you hate me, just say that instead. 16:30:42 and the pipeline finished first 16:31:04 ais523, did you tell the teacher about that? 16:31:11 yes, but I don't think he was listening 16:31:14 WOW I DON'T THINK YOUR PIPELINE IS CLEVER I MUST HATE YOU ;________; 16:31:31 ehird, no, I know you hate me from before :P 16:31:51 ``cd 16:31:52 Result: `d* 16:32:02 I still think that should be `d(interpreter source code to produce continuation) 16:33:05 * ehird considers adding "load program from URL" 16:33:11 since UL programs tend to be so big 16:33:29 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:33:34 * ehird does so 16:35:27 meh. 16:35:35 -!- unlambda has joined. 16:40:18 ehird, gave up on it? 16:40:34 yep. 16:40:45 anyway the custom unclean IO wouldn't be an issue really? Couldn't you keep it in a separate file? 16:40:57 That's not what I meant. 16:41:04 I meant that it was hardcoded to use stdin/stdout. 16:41:13 So I had to make that customizable, and the code got ugly because I just hacked it in. 16:42:02 mhm 16:42:24 wouldn't it just require replacing the IO monad with some other custom monad? 16:42:41 I mean in the main interpreter 16:42:46 It'd really be nice if you didn't pretend to know Haskell. 16:42:51 ehird, I don't 16:42:54 and I didn't claim it 16:43:17 I just notices how easy this would be in an OO language 16:43:18 :) 16:43:31 notice* 16:43:42 It'd be easy in Haskell except I did it in 3 seconds because I was lazy, and OOP is braindead. 16:43:50 But do feel free to keep trolling... 16:44:15 ehird, well when lament did it you didn't act that way 16:44:16 :P 16:44:25 No, I did, I said he was a troll. 16:44:33 But his trolling is funnier/less annoying. 16:48:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:51:12 -!- icefox has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:51:55 -!- icefox has joined. 17:11:53 * ehird resumes copyright infringement process. 17:12:02 yes 17:12:11 well enough irc for today. 17:12:12 some people would call it 17:12:12 -> 17:12:15 unpausing a torrent 17:12:18 ehird: if you're going to infringe copyright, don't tell me 17:12:27 because I'd have to try to stop you somehow, and I have no idea how 17:12:28 does it hurt your ears or something 17:12:35 try hacking into my router 17:12:39 the admin password is on default 17:12:48 you could crack the wep key easily 17:13:06 ehird: that would require being in range of your router 17:13:16 which would imply deducing where you live 17:13:21 welp, good citizens must make sacrifices. 17:13:21 and that would be really creepy 17:13:24 ais523: hexham 17:14:53 I think google knows my address to some degree of accuracy 17:14:54 not sure 17:14:57 wait 17:14:58 ais523: whoi 17:14:59 s 17:15:06 whois contains my full address, obviously 17:15:16 * ehird checks ye 17:15:17 yep 17:15:21 generally speaking it just tells you the ISPs address, doesn't it? 17:15:24 nope 17:15:35 additionally, has the landline phone number 17:15:42 there you go, now you can stop me 17:16:28 oh, I have to whois eso-std.org, rather than your real IP 17:16:42 duh :-P 17:17:19 105 days remaining 17:17:30 that's a ridiculously big torrent 17:17:33 or a rather slow connection 17:17:45 ais523: no, just a ridiculously unpeered one. on the bright side, you have a lot of time to stop me 17:18:05 grr, uploading at 250KB/second and downloading at 10... 17:18:07 damn my ISP 17:18:09 damn them 17:18:21 i'm pretty sure they shape traffic 17:18:24 ehird: the problem may not be unpeering, but the levels at which peering's happening 17:18:35 well, yes, it's improved now 17:18:39 now it'll only take 2 days ... 17:19:10 did you know that finding dual layer dvd-rs is really hard? 17:19:11 'tis 17:19:18 well. in a small town. 17:22:35 it's big enough for me to have heard of it 17:22:39 although not to remember much about it 17:22:42 Odd. 17:23:07 "Hexham is the administrative centre for the Tynedale district" 17:23:09 Didn't know that 17:23:44 IIRC it was quite important historically 17:24:09 It's rather boring nowadays. 17:24:45 hexhamshire used to be a county 17:24:56 That's one silly name. 17:25:02 although it was downgraded in 1572 17:25:20 apparently Henry I created it to annoy the Bishop of Durham 17:25:24 haha 17:25:26 England is weird 17:28:27 hmm... seems Microsoft are re-changing UAC to need a UAC prompt to change the UAC settings 17:28:37 that can only be a good thing, the previous version was like having a world-writable /etc/sudoers 17:30:54 ais523: I think the idea was to protect users from themselves. 17:31:15 the problem was that malware could just get root by turning off the setting that said it couldn't 17:31:30 ah 17:31:43 which should have been pretty obviou 17:31:46 *obvious 17:33:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:34:42 as opposed to the world government 17:35:03 hi oerjan 17:35:29 hello 17:37:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit). 17:37:13 they come and they go 17:37:15 hmm... is there a standard GNU/BSD shell command for doing date math? 17:37:32 not that i know 17:37:33 of 17:39:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:55:51 Gmail should offer their search as an api 17:55:57 that'd be fun for doing statistics 18:01:31 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:11:05 bleh, wikidot.com not only needs JS to register a user, it doesn't accept nested comments in emails 18:11:25 ehird, didn't they use to do that? 18:11:34 I said gmail, not google 18:11:36 I still have a google api key around from then 18:11:38 oh right 18:11:50 ais523: former sucks, latter is... understandable :P 18:12:06 ais523, file a bug 18:12:22 i wouldn't call it a bug. 18:12:31 I would. 18:12:54 i bet the same rfc also says something like all applications must display a pony on startup. 18:13:09 [citation needed] 18:13:29 one day you'll get a sense of humour 18:13:39 I still think that should be `d(interpreter source code to produce continuation) 18:13:42 ehird, well your joke simply wasn't fun 18:13:51 AnMaster: so ignore it 18:14:01 your interpreter doesn't reify continuations, alas 18:14:03 ehird, that is what I did 18:14:09 oerjan: vwut? 18:14:12 I ignored the joke part 18:14:48 ehird: it would be fairly easy if you made continuations a datatype similar to UL, but then they wouldn't be functions 18:14:57 ah. 18:15:02 oerjan: I meant 18:15:07 `d\s' v -> ... 18:15:08 "" (line 1, column 2): 18:15:09 unexpected "\\" 18:15:10 expecting "!" or end of input 18:15:12 except in underload 18:15:16 obligate interps to be written in unl 18:15:17 err 18:15:19 unlambda 18:16:11 hm maybe you could pass continuations as a tuple of a function and a source string 18:16:39 why not make continuations into actual code? 18:16:47 ais523: he does 18:16:47 a continuation is just a lambda which quits the program once it finishes running 18:16:49 * AnMaster should make a language that can be used on irc except there is no way to find out where input is supposed to begin, since it would use every symbol. Wait.... That would be unefunge + finding a new use for the 2D or higher instructions 18:16:54 and that's expressible in unlambda 18:16:58 ais523: his problem is how to print them 18:17:02 no 18:17:04 i'm joking 18:17:06 it was a joke about d 18:17:07 sheesh 18:17:11 oh 18:18:03 sorry, since i made that unlambda continuation notation i've been thinking someone should make an interpreter actually using it... 18:18:20 oerjan, Today I refrain from making any comments about whatever it is IWC is about today. 18:18:44 Fail 18:18:52 ehird, no. 18:18:59 you just did 18:19:14 ehird, no, read the line again. 18:19:19 I did 18:19:26 you mentioned what it was about, thus mentioning whati t was about 18:19:35 ehird: no, that's a metacomment 18:19:43 read it carefully 18:19:50 yes I did before sending the line 18:20:02 also, I've thought of a way to compile unlambda fast. 18:20:20 he mentioned mentioning, but he didn't mention :D 18:20:23 if I had said "Today I refrain from making any comment about IWC" it would have been what you said 18:20:28 exactly 18:20:51 "Today I refrain from making any comments about whatever it is IWC is about today." "whatever it is IWC is about today." 18:20:59 yes exactly 18:21:02 You referenced it, which counted as a comment about it, in the wider scope. 18:21:11 You're wrong, this is tedious, conversation over. 18:21:12 that means what the comic strip contains 18:21:13 ehird: the fastest way to compile Unlambda is to bundle it with an interpreter 18:21:20 presumably, you mean make the resulting program fast? 18:21:32 ais523: Yes. :P 18:21:35 ehird, you are wrong, sorry 18:22:03 AnMaster: Step 1. Learn English Step 2. Understand what your sentence actually says Step 3. Realise you're wrong Step 4. Don't mention it because this s boring 18:22:13 ehird, well what does ais523 and oerjan think? 18:22:18 hm it may be ambiguous 18:22:20 You forgot step 4. 18:22:26 AnMaster: I haven't been paying any thought to it 18:22:29 and probably won't start 18:22:31 depends on how you parse it 18:22:36 oerjan, maybe. but you could interpret it the way I did 18:22:46 ``cs 18:22:47 Result: `s* 18:22:56 ```ccs 18:22:57 Result: `ss 18:23:00 ````cccs 18:23:01 Result: `ss 18:23:08 ``cs`cs 18:23:10 "" (line 1, column 4): 18:23:11 unexpected "`" 18:23:11 expecting "!" or end of input 18:23:13 oops 18:23:14 ```cs`cs 18:23:15 Result: ``s*`s* 18:23:22 oerjan, so if ehird just for once could admit that... 18:23:23 ```cs``cs`cs 18:23:24 Result: ``s*``s*`s* 18:23:29 `````````ccccccccc 18:23:30 Result: * 18:23:36 AnMaster: you say admit like it's impossible you're wrong 18:23:50 funny, I recall you say that about me all the time 18:24:01 ehird, in this case I'm quite sure that I'm right or the parsing is ambiguous. 18:24:10 this is after analysing the line carefully. 18:24:20 * oerjan admits this is boring 18:24:32 oerjan: gee, I only said that minutes ago when I told him not to mention it. 18:24:38 oerjan, well I agree with that 18:24:47 he's very attentive. 18:25:57 I just realised there is no way to get past your stubbornness, that is all :) 18:26:00 afk 18:26:21 how hypocritical. 18:26:44 ehird: it is not hypocritical just because he is stubborn too 18:26:52 you _can_ both be 18:27:26 in fact you have to to be bickering as you do 18:27:30 sure it is, the previous sentence constituted "you're so stubborn", except with the Intellectual Booster(TM) In The Right SarcastiSmiley addons. 18:27:59 NO IT ISN'T 18:28:32 I wonder if he'll go away if I annoy him enough. 18:28:44 back 18:28:46 no I won't 18:29:24 also at least I don't go into a part/join cycle like you do whenever ais523 agree with whoever disagrees with you. 18:29:28 I think you underestimate how much I can annoy people. 18:29:31 with join, comment, part 18:29:48 seen that immature behaviour a few times from you. 18:29:57 * ais523 agrees with AnMaster to see what happens 18:30:12 ais523, probably won't work now, just to prove I'm wrong 18:30:23 i love how you think I care <3 18:30:28 ais523, and it usually takes at least a few screens of arguing before he does it. 18:30:30 :) 18:31:19 it must suck not to know how stupid you are. 18:31:51 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:31:53 Well, I'm afraid I really can't understand how that feels for you ehird. 18:32:04 since I never been in that situation. 18:32:23 eek 18:32:27 are you sitting there in your chair, giving yourself a high-five for your razor sharp wit 18:32:36 i agree, that wit is pretty sharp. shame it's not funny 18:32:41 my virus scanner found something other than a cookie :( 18:32:43 ehird, in fact, no. I was reading some scheme source code. 18:33:20 oerjan: what was it/ 18:33:20 AnMaster: come now, you should read something more to your ability, say a book of nursery rhymes. I can do this all day, btw. 18:33:32 -!- Mony has quit ("reboot"). 18:33:52 also, my virus scanner's never found anything, I only installed it because the University rules said I had to have one 18:34:06 "Trojan horse Generic12.BJXH" it says 18:34:11 ehird, well so can I, alas we are in different timezones, so that means I have to give up an hour before you. + it is already dark outside since a few hours. 18:34:19 in chatham's puzzle connection? 18:34:26 *collection 18:34:42 oerjan, did you download it? 18:34:44 ok it's not a game i've run recently 18:34:55 probably a trojan if so 18:34:59 Generic12 is a pretty weird name for a trojan... 18:35:20 downloaded it a long time ago, but the scanner hasn't found anything before. might be a false positive. 18:35:38 otherwise, the file must have been changed by something else 18:36:26 the virus scanner is still running, we'll see if it finds it anywhere else 18:36:35 -!- Mony has joined. 18:36:41 oerjan, or it wasn't detected until recently 18:39:10 well, duh 18:39:46 however i've definitely played that puzzle before 18:40:03 so if there were a trojan why hasn't it spread 18:41:04 er 18:41:11 `i 18:41:12 Result: i 18:41:14 -!- olsner_ has joined. 18:41:26 ```dcd 18:41:27 Result: `d* 18:42:02 *tatham 18:45:57 oerjan: there would be no point for it to spread to other programs on your computer 18:46:00 as you're already infected 18:46:05 besides, trojans don't spread, by definition 18:46:19 ic 18:46:54 not sure what it's doing there, if anything 18:47:36 i guess i'll download the collection again, there are some new puzzles 18:47:38 Google's never heard of it, which is strange 18:47:54 ```. `cd`.*`cd 18:47:55 * ** *** **** ***** ****** ******* ******** ********* ********** *********** ************ ************* ************** *************** **************** ***************** ****************** ******************* ******************** ********************* ********************** *********************** ************************ ******* 18:47:55 ****************** ************************** *************************** **************************** ***************************** ****************************** ******************************* ******************************** ********************************* ********************************** ********************************** 18:47:56 * ************************************ ************************************* ************************************** *************************************** **************************************** ***************************************** ****************************************** ******************************************* ****** 18:47:57 ************************************** ********************************************* ********************************************** *********************************************** ************************************************ ************************************************* ************************************************** ** 18:48:01 ************************************************* **************************************************** ***************************************************** ****************************************************** ******************************************************* ******************************************************** ******* 18:48:05 ************************************************** *************************************** Result: 18:48:22 ```cd`.*`.*`cd 18:48:23 ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** 18:48:23 ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** 18:48:24 ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** 18:48:24 er 18:48:25 ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** 18:48:29 ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** 18:48:29 :o 18:48:33 ****************************************************************************************** Result: 18:48:51 ``. ``cd`.*`cd 18:48:53 ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** 18:48:54 ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** 18:48:55 ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** 18:48:56 ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** 18:48:58 Argh. 18:49:00 ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** 18:49:04 ****************************************************************************************** Result: 18:51:57 i'm trying to get 18:52:04 ... oh! 18:52:25 ```.*`cd`. `cd 18:52:26 looks like \** not \.\.\ oh! 18:52:26 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 18:52:27 * * * * * * * * * * 18:52:28 * * * * * * * * * 18:52:29 * * * * * * * 18:52:33 * * * * * * 18:52:37 * Result: 18:52:45 OH GOD I CAN SEE FOREVER 18:52:48 ehird: I suggest you reduce the maximum amount of output somewhat 18:52:52 ehird, nice constellation! 18:52:59 looks a bit like Orion? 18:53:05 ais523: nah, a lot of programs only start giving interesting output after a bit 18:53:06 Does it represent something? 18:53:09 plus, it's flushed out quickly 18:53:15 Slereah2: it's just * * * * 18:53:16 etc 18:53:19 the number of spaces increase 18:53:24 "only start giving interesting output after a bit"? 18:53:30 ais523: sure 18:53:33 like the counting programs 18:53:35 only the first line of that's interesting, probably only the first half of the first line 18:53:38 ais523, "outputs garbage at the start" 18:53:39 * oerjan swats ehird -----### 18:53:44 as for counting programs, just use / rather than newline 18:53:44 ais523: er, no 18:53:51 it looked nice in the irc display 18:53:56 plus, you have /ignore, use it 18:54:08 I may do, although not yet 18:54:08 ehird, not really, was quite weird, and not at all well formatted 18:54:13 my ignore tolerance is pretty high 18:54:20 AnMaster: looked nice to me. 18:54:25 each fills around 3 wrapped lines 18:54:26 plus the code is nice 18:55:01 ```.*`cd``@|`cd!hello world I am testing 18:55:02 *h*eh*leh*lleh*olleh* olleh*w olleh*ow olleh*row olleh*lrow olleh*dlrow olleh* dlrow olleh*I dlrow olleh* I dlrow olleh*a I dlrow olleh*ma I dlrow olleh* ma I dlrow olleh*t ma I dlrow olleh*et ma I dlrow olleh*set ma I dlrow olleh*tset ma I dlrow olleh*itset ma I dlrow olleh*nitset ma I dlrow olleh*gnitset ma I dlrow olleh*gnitset 18:55:03 ma I dlrow olleh* Result: v 18:55:14 Cute and incomprehensible. 18:55:18 ehird, there is this thing calling "running a program locally", should that not work there is also "joining another channel", to do that you do /join #esoteric-spam or whatever channel you want 18:55:24 toler ignorance 18:55:35 oerjan, hah 18:55:41 AnMaster: complain about fungot too, if you're so upset by it ignore it 18:55:42 ehird: uninterned symbols, pairs, procedures, and so am i to know if it's his older thing or something? random numbers, perhaps. 18:55:48 * oerjan rolls his eyes 18:55:50 ehird, it outputs much less 18:55:54 that is the main difference 18:55:56 that's nice 18:56:13 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.] 18:56:13 222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222 ... 18:56:15 see? 18:56:19 not as spammy 18:56:29 yes, most unlambda programs output a lot more than one line 18:56:33 and thus one line isn't useful 18:56:40 did someone take away your /ignore? 18:56:54 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++...>++++++++++.<... 18:56:54 222.222 18:57:13 seems it uses . for \n unless I miscounted 18:57:22 ```.*`cd``@|`cd!* * * * * * * * * * * 18:57:23 *** *** ** * ** * *** * ** * * ** * * ** * * *** * * ** * * * ** * * * ** * * * ** * * * *** * * * ** * * * * ** * * * * ** * * * * ** * * * * ** * * * * *** * * * * ** * * * * * ** * * * * * ** * * * * * ** * 18:57:23 * * * * ** * * * * * ** * * * * * *** * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * * * * * 18:57:24 *** * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * ** 18:57:26 * * * * * * * *** * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * ** 18:57:30 * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * *** * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * ** * 18:57:34 * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * Result: 18:57:35 oh god so pretttttttttttyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy 18:57:37 ^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 18:57:37 ````ci`c`@|i!^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ 18:57:38 ^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ Result: v 18:57:39 ````ci`c`@|i!^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn! 18:57:40 ^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn! Result: v 18:57:40 ````ci`c`@|i!^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn! 18:57:41 ^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn! Result: v 18:57:42 ````ci`c`@|i!^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn! 18:57:43 ^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn! Result: v 18:57:43 ````ci`c`@|i!^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn! 18:57:45 ^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn! Result: v 18:57:45 ````ci`c`@|i!^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn! 18:57:46 -!- unlambda has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:57:48 :D 18:57:52 ais523 :D 18:58:00 what? 18:58:03 -!- unlambda has joined. 18:58:08 AnMaster: that's funny, kind of like how you whined at me when I set up a botloop of fungots 18:58:08 ehird: no idea what it is, and at the moment 18:58:11 oh wait, not at all like that. 18:58:17 ehird, only because it quit 18:58:23 ehird: you know I can't resist botlooping any new bot which joins 18:58:23 I guess it failed 18:58:28 AnMaster: no, I quit it. 18:58:32 before people started complaining. 18:58:35 you know, like fizzie does. 18:58:39 ehird, not :D then, rather: you are a hypocrite 18:58:40 /did 18:58:51 since you got irritated when fizzie quit your loop 18:58:56 umm I believe I was just calling you out for hypocritical actions there 18:58:59 I like botloops 18:59:04 I agree that ehird should have quitted the loop when e did 18:59:07 ehird, yes, but you always do that 18:59:18 now, to get fungot's output to be legal Underload 18:59:18 ais523, yes I agree too 18:59:19 ais523: fnord fnord already runs with fnord classpath so it would be 18:59:26 *unlambda's output 18:59:32 I sure would like a conversation with a sentient being once in a while. Any in here? 18:59:46 ehird: well, there is evidence for that 18:59:55 Yes, for all users but one. 19:00:01 I think the name starts with an A. 19:00:21 ehird, I understand you wouldn't see one when you met one. I mean due to not being sentient yourself. 19:00:35 Wow, didn't you use that retort a few minutes ago? 19:00:45 I guess your brain operates in batch mode, on the occasion that it does. 19:01:17 ehird, actually, I have to change option then, you are sentient, or you wouldn't pattern match that well. 19:01:44 Huh. The bot recognizes sentience. Interesting. 19:01:56 which bot? fungot or unlambda? 19:01:57 AnMaster: what if it's not beautiful, it's probably a useful idea to send parsed requests from the same language on another layer? nice additions to the base level, have fun with. 19:02:12 ^style 19:02:13 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 19:02:15 mhm 19:02:40 AnMaster. 19:02:46 yes? 19:02:51 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:03:20 the bot AnMaster. 19:03:34 what bot ehird? 19:03:44 the bot named "AnMaster". 19:03:44 * oerjan swats FireFly -----### 19:03:50 oerjan: why? 19:03:53 :< 19:03:55 indeed why 19:03:58 irresistible nick 19:04:05 ehird, mistaken identity. 19:04:05 :) 19:04:15 No, I'm fairly sure. 19:04:30 personally, I think it's just ehird being contrary for no good reason 19:05:01 yes, because I'm the only one who does that. certainly AnMaster never does. 19:05:41 * oerjan swats ehird -----### 19:06:34 ais523, I believe it is related to his age. Aren't they supposed to be that when they are in their lower teens (is that a Swedishism or an Englishism?) 19:06:57 why don't we all discuss esolangs for once? 19:07:02 ais523, good idea. 19:07:23 ais523, just seems ehird prefers to attack me instead. Sigh. 19:07:46 I'm going to assume that AnMaster knows he's being hypocritical to the max degree. 19:07:50 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:08:04 Also, that referencing my age to win an argument probably won't work on anyone with sentience. 19:08:27 wtf, i think this unlambda program is Life 19:08:35 or ... some automaton 19:09:02 ehird, don't worry, it is just a natural part of life. You will get past it in a few years. :) 19:09:33 I wonder if I should do like AnMaster does and ignore AnMaster and then paste the successful ignore message as flamebait. 19:09:44 Oh wait, I have a brain. drop that idea. 19:09:49 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 19:10:02 also it wouldn't work on me. It only works on you. 19:10:39 afk 19:10:55 Hm. lament: Is deliberately trolling to elicit a flamewar bannable yet? 19:11:05 I direct you to "It only works on you.". 19:12:30 ehird, Probably not: after all, you are still here. Now I really need to programming. Have a nice evening. 19:12:46 You accidentally programming with your brain. 19:12:59 But thanks for leaving just to make me happier. I really appreciate the thought. 19:15:53 i for one can see no difference between AnMaster and ehird as far as bannability is concerned. 19:16:20 banning us both would work, I'd come back with a proxy under a different name and he likely wouldn't. 19:21:48 ehird: we could still tell it was you just from the style 19:22:03 Don't be so sure. 19:22:18 well, if it was sufficiently different, you wouldn't argue with AnMaster-like opinions, so everyone would be happy 19:23:00 Yes, agreeing with idiots tends to make everyone into idiots and idiots among idiots generally are happy. 19:23:20 AnMaster is not an idiot 19:23:24 regardless of what you think 19:23:38 Dayum, what's this new subjectivity I hear about? I don't believe in it. 19:23:39 oerjan: sorry, since i made that unlambda continuation notation i've been thinking someone should make an interpreter actually using it... <<< my subtle cough interp used an equivalent one 19:24:20 I never considered ehird an idiot. Just as very annoying. 19:24:39 I never said you considered me an idiot. I said you were an idiot. 19:24:40 and stubborn 19:24:58 ehird, that is your subjective opinion 19:25:01 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:25:25 In a world where everyone has to start every sentence with "IMO" because humans have lost the ability to realise that what people say is not always in the context of objective fact... 19:25:32 ...everyone is AnMaster. 19:27:31 no. Everyone is wikipedia 19:27:34 that is what you meant. 19:28:27 that doesn't even class as a joke. 19:28:45 ehird: it isn't a joke, just an observation 19:28:48 and quite an interesting one 19:28:56 ofc, knowing AnMaster it might have meant to be a joke, but i don't think so 19:29:08 No, I'm pretty sure that was meant as a joke. 19:29:38 AnMaster: well? 19:30:08 [citation needed] 19:30:22 oerjan: Har har har that is so funny the 50th time 19:30:40 oerjan: i for one can see no difference between AnMaster and ehird as far as bannability is concerned. <<< i do. 19:30:44 erm this time it actually fit 19:31:01 they'd have completely different reasons for being banned. 19:31:03 oklopol: lemme guess, I'm bannable he's not? 19:31:08 ais523, no it wasn't a joke 19:31:32 (and if you asked that before ais523 implied that if it was a joke, it was awful ...) 19:31:46 ehird: I don't think AnMaster would lie about such things 19:31:49 jokes are no laughing matter 19:31:56 augh.... 19:32:03 ehird: no, objectively speaking you both are very bannable, you're very stubborn and tend to insult people just for the fuck of it 24/7, and AnMaster is... very AnMaster. 19:32:21 OK, know what? I'll come back when AnMaster's gone and we're actually discussing something 19:32:23 -!- ehird has left (?). 19:32:23 (people = AnMaster, mostly) 19:32:28 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:32:37 o 19:32:39 o 19:32:55 but you are correct, I wouldn't lie about that. Nor would I actually lie about anything really, unless it is a matter of life of death or such. (Like if someone was pointing a gun at you...) 19:33:02 also, disappears once someone other than AnMaster actually says something bad about him... 19:33:14 oerjan, yes I mentioned that above. 19:33:15 :P 19:33:17 I rarely lie, except in contexts where people expect lying to be appropriate 19:33:23 such as certain games where lying is part of the game 19:33:26 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 19:33:41 ais523, well ok, but I don't like such games 19:33:49 AnMaster: wait, it's _you_ who are supposed to have the short attention span... 19:34:00 oerjan, no? Isn't it ehird? 19:34:16 he claims it's you. that may confuse me sometimes. 19:34:58 oerjan, I'm the guy who can edit 20 C files each 2000+ lines at once and still manage to keep track of which function was where, even when the files lack a consistent function naming scheme. 19:35:03 i occasionally lie accidentally, like, explain something incorrectly, and don't bother to correct it. 19:35:14 because who's gonna know. 19:35:15 (of course, I wouldn't remember the next day) 19:35:35 oklopol, well I guess that could happen, but I try to correct it if I see I made an error. 19:36:20 ais523: i don't manage to play such games... 19:36:32 oerjan, actually, that "disappears once someone other than AnMaster actually says something bad about him..." is not exactly what I mentioned. ehird hasn't rejoined to make a one line comment and then part again, yet... 19:36:39 but maybe he will do that soon. 19:36:52 of course he is reading logs all the time 19:37:07 the problem is i care very little about actualy facts about specific people, i prefer having conversations about more general stuff, using myself only as an example 19:37:12 * AnMaster waits for: * ehird joined No I don't read logs! * ehird parted 19:37:14 yep, ehird left ##nomic in a huff and hasn't rejoined since, but apparently logreads it anyway 19:37:37 oklopol, hm? How is that a problem? 19:37:50 except in irc, but that's quite a different persona. 19:37:59 ohg 19:38:00 oh* 19:38:05 AnMaster: the point is if i accidentally lie, i don't see any reason to correct it. 19:38:06 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:38:14 because it's not about me, it's about the facts 19:38:39 oklopol, hm so if you lie about the facts, you don't correct it? 19:39:04 or only if you lie about yourself. 19:39:44 the kind of facts i'm talking about you cannot lie about. more like "this courses material could be considered not very suitable for university for reason X" 19:40:16 (i rarely talk about anything other than my own education nowadays) 19:40:17 yeah it's just as sure as 2+2=5 19:40:26 oerjan, :) 19:40:47 oerjan, at these temperatures we have now it is more usually 2+2=3 though... 19:41:06 I mean, not even in Swedish summer we reach 2+2=5 19:41:15 you would have to go to south Europe for that. 19:41:22 AnMaster: if i tell someone i went to the shop the day before, but i actually went there two days ago, i will not correct it, i'll just make sure it doesn't come up i lied. 19:41:29 (and that wasn't a lie, but a joke) 19:41:30 because that would just clutter the conversation 19:41:33 it does not matter. 19:42:05 but! 19:42:07 need to go again. 19:42:08 -> 19:42:22 oklopol, what if the discussion was about having an alibi for someone you saw in the shop? 19:42:23 :D 19:45:10 -!- impomatic has joined. 19:45:49 AnMaster: the IWC forum discussion for the current comic is - disturbing 19:46:03 GAH! I haven't read the forum 19:46:22 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:46:24 GREAT SUCCESS :D 19:46:37 oerjan, hehe 19:46:39 oerjan: why would you engage in conversation about iwc right when ehird is not here to witness it :P 19:46:50 oklopol, you forgot he is log reading. 19:46:57 what's the whole IWC meme anyway? 19:47:00 I must have missed it 19:47:06 ais523, no meme. 19:47:19 well, it seems to have become a meme even if it wasn't 19:47:21 oklopol: um, what? 19:47:26 AnMaster: i try my best not to consider logreaders. 19:47:33 ais523, I just happened to comment on IWC before oerjan read it a few times. 19:47:36 i don't like to be talking to anyone who happens to be watching. 19:47:37 ais523: AnMaster just likes to discuss the comic... 19:47:45 i'm talking to whoever is active here. 19:48:57 oerjan: "AM: butt i liek talk oerjan bout a iwc! HRD: lol he not speak anyway... AM: oh i sory if he don care then i'll not speak no mores :|" 19:49:23 * impomatic summons ehird 19:49:54 oerjan: and because you contradicted that for the first time right after ehird's departure, i felt like it was statistically important enough to mention. 19:49:55 oerjan, hm I agree. Very disturbing... 19:50:10 -!- unlambda has joined. 19:50:19 oklopol, there is no way I would talk like that. 19:50:22 ```eek 19:50:23 Result: e 19:50:31 also wondering why that book joined again... without ehird. 19:50:41 impomatic: but AnMaster just unsummoned him 19:50:43 maybe he took it offline to be able to talk through it? 19:50:52 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:50:58 hum 19:51:04 -!- unlambda has joined. 19:51:09 hm that's weird 19:51:12 `````````````````.c.a.n. .i. .u.n.l.a.m.b.d.a.?i 19:51:13 "" (line 1, column 48): 19:51:13 unexpected end of input 19:51:14 expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`" 19:51:18 sdfioj 19:51:19 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:51:24 oh I see. he want to cycle spam it 19:51:25 sigh 19:51:29 * oklopol can not. 19:51:30 -!- unlambda has joined. 19:51:40 unicycle megaspam 19:51:48 ````````````````.c.a.n. .i. .u.n.l.a.m.b.d.a.?i 19:51:49 can i unlambda? Result: i 19:51:54 \o/ 19:52:08 * oklopol knows his way around this one 19:52:16 ``oo 19:52:17 oklopol, cycle spam = 10 JOIN 20 PART (or quit) 30 GOTO 10 19:52:17 "" (line 1, column 4): 19:52:18 unexpected end of input 19:52:19 expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`" 19:53:00 AnMaster: oh he added an irc extension? basikell is advancing quickly. 19:53:20 oklopol, What? 19:53:53 AnMaster: it's a reference to something you didn't see 19:54:13 but seriously, i have to go now. i mean like at this mo. 19:54:15 -> 19:54:26 cya 19:54:51 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:55:03 -!- unlambda has joined. 19:55:25 AnMaster: http://augustss.blogspot.com/2009/02/regression-they-say-that-as-you-get.html 19:55:35 * AnMaster looks 19:55:54 hm that page layout looks extremely familiar.... 19:57:32 oerjan, no download link? 19:58:24 hm no 19:58:31 :/ 20:03:25 why not GOTO 20 20:04:20 oklopol, Because you just used -> of course... 20:04:52 and you have already used it twice without a matching <- today 20:04:54 at least twice 20:04:57 @_X 20:04:58 maybe more 20:05:04 oerjan, what? 20:05:04 y_Y 20:05:11 * oerjan is confused 20:05:12 I fail to interpret that smiley 20:05:27 oh 20:05:28 lol 20:05:42 oerjan, logical, if "->" is "out" or "away", then "<-" would be "in" or "here". 20:05:43 took me a while to understand that given that it made absolutely no sense :P 20:05:47 so you need to match them 20:05:57 but yeah i generally assume people can sense my returns without a sign. 20:06:43 oklopol, hey how do you expect me to mindread over IRC? 20:06:52 oklopol, I consider <- and -> as refcount 20:06:55 so it has to match up 20:06:58 same way as anywhere else 20:07:15 oerjan, well not over long distance internet :P 20:07:15 ESP over ISP 20:07:19 AnMaster: there's only one oklopol, you don't have to refcount him 20:07:20 augh! 20:07:46 ais523, what about oklofok? 20:07:55 and the other variants 20:07:56 Hmmm... codegolf.com does well on programming reddit, but anarchy golf gets voted down :-( 20:08:06 impomatic, strange 20:08:14 ais523: but what if someone throws him in the garbage? 20:08:35 anarchy golf looks unprofessional 20:08:47 because there's so much crazy stuff going on behind the scenes there hasn't been time to polish the interface 20:08:49 probaly that's it 20:09:20 you'd think all those libertarians would like it, no? 20:09:39 codegolf.com looks professional IFF "Connection timed out" is considered to look professional. 20:09:54 Though I admit that the firefox "Connection timed out" DOES look professional. 20:10:22 "oh my god they must have sommuch usserz!" 20:10:42 oklopol, ? 20:11:13 i don't actually know what causes connection timed out in general. 20:11:14 what about sammich users? 20:11:23 maybe reddit? 20:11:30 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:11:36 sammich? 20:11:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:11:40 i mean i don't know what causes it in general. 20:11:42 -!- unlambda has joined. 20:11:50 hi ehird 20:11:54 oerjan, wtf is sammich? 20:11:59 JFGI 20:12:01 (i'm assuming anything that makes to connection time out, but how should i know.) 20:12:03 ais523, huh? 20:12:06 *makes the 20:12:09 AnMaster: unlambda is ehird's bot 20:12:14 ais523, yes I know 20:12:15 and? 20:12:19 and ehird has been known for bot shenanigans in the past 20:12:21 ` 20:12:22 "" (line 1, column 1): 20:12:22 unexpected end of input 20:12:23 expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`" 20:12:28 ais523, well ok true 20:12:30 probably ehird doesn't even ened to logread 20:12:34 because the bot's logging 20:12:36 good point. 20:12:56 bog's lotting 20:13:05 bog? 20:13:10 Hmmm... 20:13:24 isn't that some sort of marshland feature? 20:13:25 the whole hog 20:13:35 ais523, am I right? 20:13:35 ```s`s`ckc 20:13:35 on a log 20:13:37 Result: ``s`s`k*c 20:13:45 AnMaster: sort of, yes 20:13:52 do you only know about bogs from wargames? 20:13:53 oerjan, s/^/snakes / 20:13:54 :P 20:14:09 -!- ais523 has quit. 20:14:11 adders, to be specific 20:14:13 what? 20:14:21 and I don't know wargames 20:14:27 but why did ais quit... 20:16:11 it's a conundrum 20:16:15 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:16:17 well 20:16:24 it is a case of ircd fail 20:16:27 -!- unlambda has joined. 20:16:32 since it didn't include a quit reason 20:20:32 hope ais get back soon 20:25:50 also hi ehird ^W unlambda 20:28:11 Unlambda is too unlambdy 20:28:22 `fi 20:28:23 "" (line 1, column 3): 20:28:24 unexpected end of input 20:28:24 expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`" 20:28:30 `.fi 20:28:31 "" (line 1, column 3): 20:28:32 oops 20:28:32 unexpected "i" 20:28:33 expecting "!" or end of input 20:28:42 So it's like that, is it 20:28:45 `.fi! 20:28:45 "" (line 1, column 3): 20:28:46 unexpected "i" 20:28:47 expecting "!" or end of input 20:28:51 ... 20:28:53 D: 20:29:05 Unlamda, talk to me! 20:31:08 ``.fi 20:31:09 f Result: i 20:32:36 Why is the extra ` required? 20:32:49 just to confuse people 20:32:57 and that's the official explanation 20:32:58 You are confusing me, oerjan. 20:33:30 well, ar figgle boof nybble grip grop 20:33:51 hm 20:34:06 Slereah2, it use it as an activator char 20:34:07 in here 20:34:09 that is why 20:34:23 well, ar figgle boof nybble grip grop <-- what? 20:34:53 Mup Da Doo Didda Po Mo Gub Bidda Be Dat Tum 4chan meme usually (but not always) used as the black version of fgsfds. Muhfuggen bix nood 20:35:17 sometimes i have to wonder if AnMaster _is_ a bot... 20:35:33 AnMaster say botty things. 20:35:59 oerjan, Why do you say so? 20:36:02 say that* 20:37:06 well, ar figgle boof nybble grip grop <-- what? 20:37:22 oerjan, So how do you feel about your ar figgle boof nybble grip? 20:38:14 well it's quite nice but i wish it had a chrome finish 20:38:43 oerjan, Is it because you wish it had a chrome finish that you came to me? 20:38:51 no. 20:38:56 You're a reknowned chromer. 20:38:58 oerjan, Why not? 20:39:47 * AnMaster waits for oerjan to answer... 20:39:51 because in 1635, Art van Goorpuddle invented the prewashed gnarl pusher 20:40:08 it's a bit weird, doesn't joke *that* much in , but for some reason, every time it's mentioned that there's a timer overflow issue (Y2K, CD-rom, unix and msdos timestamps etc), he makes a joke, "every extra 88 years help" "so you should start preparing for the 2136 problem as early as possible". 20:40:15 oerjan, I see... Well, are you sure that this is so? 20:40:26 i mean every time 20:40:34 the book has like 20 of them 20:40:56 well why else would they use the trapezoid dumplings? 20:40:58 oklopol, why 88 years? 20:41:20 oerjan, When did you first know that else would they use the trapezoid dumplings? 20:41:26 and also about cd's lasting 100 years, "check back in 208X to see how well the first batch did" 20:41:42 when i was a little kid 20:41:43 AnMaster: i think that one was about msdos 20:42:03 they used a 65536 counter for storing the amount of seconds in a day 20:42:09 oerjan, Can you elaborate on that? 20:42:31 no. 20:42:41 and something just as stupid for years/months/days, 88 years was what would've been saved using unix's way 20:42:41 oerjan, Are you annoyed that I ask that? 20:43:08 oklopol: um, 86400 > 65536 20:43:21 oerjan: and? 20:43:45 so exactly which seconds did they leave out? 20:43:52 oklopol, btw, on Linux x86_64 the time_t is 64-bit, not 32-bit 20:43:58 so this computer will have no issues. 20:44:11 oerjan: hard to say. 20:44:22 probably whatever roundoff gave em 20:44:36 it was "accurate to +-2 seconds" 20:44:46 so. you can estimate at least 20:44:47 oklopol, :D 20:44:48 eek 20:45:11 oerjan, I would appreciate it if you would continue. 20:45:28 i'm sure you would. 20:45:38 oerjan, Do you really think you are sure I would? 20:45:38 AnMaster: i know that. probably if i read the modern unix part of the book, he'd say "so remember to update your computer before the year 29289376427324!". 20:45:47 no. 20:46:00 in fact i should probably read it just to confirm that. 20:46:08 oerjan, if you haven't figured it out, I was feeding what you said to an eliza style bot and pasting the replies back :P 20:46:40 oklopol, what is this book? 20:46:43 of course 20:46:59 x = tanenbaum, y = modern operating systems 20:47:03 oerjan, when did you figure it out 20:47:08 oklopol, "tanenbaum"? 20:47:14 wtf does that mean. 20:47:20 oerjan, So how do you feel about your ar figgle boof nybble grip? 20:47:25 AnMaster: yeah, he's the third most famous operating systems dude. 20:47:57 oerjan, at that point I was actually making it up myself, I started using emacs' M-x doctor at the next line. 20:47:58 AnMaster: it's german for christmas tree 20:48:03 at least i consider him that, of course i'm a bit biased (read: ignorant) when it comes to stuff like this 20:48:07 oerjan, I see. then it makes no sense. 20:48:27 AnMaster: tanenbaum is the author of minix 20:48:34 oh 20:48:36 nice name 20:48:44 you don't know minix? 20:48:49 John Christmas tree 20:48:50 oklopol, I do 20:48:57 but I didn't know the author of it 20:49:03 right, right. 20:49:08 I heard about it, how Torvalds began using it and so on 20:49:22 some say ignorance is bliss, others say ignorance is bias 20:49:49 anyway back to reading overflow jokes -> 20:49:53 oerjan, just wondering, was that supposed to be a joke? 20:49:56 oklopol, have fun! 20:50:07 will do. 20:50:41 AnMaster: random rambling, nothing to see here, mock on 20:50:46 oklopol, someone really needs to design an OS using some bignum scheme for date and time. 20:50:57 oerjan, gah... 20:51:15 hm actually it means "fir tree" originally 20:51:26 (and should have a double n) 20:51:57 oerjan, hah at the very last comment in the IWC forum thread for today's comic! 20:52:08 AnMaster: someone not including any ordinary humans, i say 20:52:25 oerjan, uh? 20:52:35 * oerjan checks if there's a new comment 20:53:51 Is there a website that covers esoteric operating systems? 20:53:54 this day of the week really sucks when it comes to web comic. Only the daily ones update on sat. 20:54:01 oklopol, someone really needs to design an OS using some bignum scheme for date and time. 20:54:17 oerjan, just to prevent that joking author yes 20:54:23 AnMaster: also, Buck Godot 20:54:31 oerjan, HUH? 20:54:41 updates on saturdays 20:54:44 oh 20:54:46 right 20:54:48 * AnMaster googles 20:55:15 oerjan, I mean xkcd and darth and droids are offset so one of them update every weekday 20:55:34 yes 20:55:46 http://www.geekologie.com/2009/02/07/bacon-chart-2.jpg 20:55:57 Mony, ehird isn't here 20:56:03 D&D did that on purpose 20:56:09 oerjan, yes I know 20:56:11 lol 20:56:17 why did you say that ? 20:56:29 -!- alex89ru has quit ("Verlassend"). 20:57:03 Mony: he left in a huff 20:57:24 AnMaster overdose :D 20:57:40 + a bit of side comments 20:58:00 anyway 20:58:03 I hate bacon 20:58:10 mm bacon 20:58:14 really no 20:58:18 mm garlic! 20:58:32 AnMaster: you're all set for converting to islam i see :D 20:58:52 oerjan, oh? Actually I like pig in other forms 20:58:58 just not as "bacon" 21:07:07 oerjan, about that web comic you mentioned, is it good? 21:07:54 * oerjan panics as someone asks him a taste question 21:08:15 oerjan, um why? 21:08:39 I have also considered starting reading Order of the stick, read a few of it, but haven't had a lot of free time. 21:09:45 i don't have the foggiest idea whether the things i like are "good" or not 21:10:37 oerjan, so what web comics do you like? 21:10:41 So I can compare 21:11:39 ok it's probably good, really, it's by Phil Foglio 21:11:49 never heard the name before 21:11:54 huh? 21:11:59 same as half of Girl Genius 21:12:06 never heard of that either 21:12:07 heh, never realised 21:12:13 both great comics 21:12:36 though Foglio's earlier career is showing through in the GG artwork a bit too much for my tastes 21:12:59 even more so in Buck Godot, i think 21:12:59 * AnMaster reads xkcd, IWC, Darth and Droids, sqrt(-garfield), UF 21:13:12 Referring to xxxenophile? :-P 21:13:15 all quite geeky I'm afraid 21:13:21 Deewiant: no 21:14:06 oh and I used to read DM of the rings, but that one finished. 21:14:14 AnMaster: also Freefall 21:14:24 (I think I began reading it about one month before it finished or so?) 21:14:28 * SimonRC reads freefall too 21:14:35 * AnMaster googles 21:14:49 UH UH 21:14:52 it's for the scifi, honest, no the furry 21:14:54 mind you i got to most of my webcomics from this channel 21:14:55 "Sci-fi furry serial. New comic on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays." 21:14:56 ... 21:15:00 is what google says 21:15:03 no thanks 21:15:08 AnMaster: furry is singular BTW 21:15:19 SimonRC, yes and? 21:15:33 it definitely leans more to the sci-fi side 21:15:34 I just copied that line from google 21:15:40 AnMaster: actually freefall is _not_ anything to do with fetishes and such 21:15:42 http://www.geekologie.com/2009/02/07/bacon-chart-2.jpg <<< finally a chart that's not annoyingly hard to follow. 21:15:49 oerjan, how boring ;P 21:16:21 i'd say Buck Godot and Girl Genius are much more fixated on such... 21:16:32 as SimonRC hinted 21:16:42 ok I just checked that website, and the comic there makes no sense at all 21:16:47 SimonRC: what were you referring to, then? 21:16:56 AnMaster: freefall today? 21:17:09 oerjan, yes 21:17:20 AnMaster: freefall is a long story, also it's (in)famous for going _very_ slowly 21:17:32 right 21:17:42 I'm not up for archive reading atm 21:17:52 so short story arcs is what I currently want 21:18:02 Yes I read the whole IWC archive once upon a time 21:18:26 AnMaster: in today's comic an old adversary finally gets a bit of comeuppance 21:18:31 Deewiant: I meant Foglio's earlier pornography career means most of the women in GG have much cleavage and most of the men great muscles. 21:18:52 AnMaster: for short arcs, try bruno the bandit 21:18:52 SimonRC: yes, that's what I was referring to as well :-P 21:19:03 oerjan, why does one person fall asleep? 21:19:06 and so on 21:19:10 arcs are multiples of 6 days; many early ones just 6 days 21:19:20 AnMaster: it makes perfect sense in context 21:19:30 SimonRC, if you say so...... 21:21:04 AnMaster: specifically, Florence is a (biological) AI fitted with some kind of deactivation mechanism triggered by the blue remote. and the manager in the background has had his tongue stuck to the crygenic pipe for several strips 21:21:42 I see 21:23:08 AnMaster: he deserved it, too 21:23:17 :D 21:23:25 on another topic altogether... A google ad made me click today: http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/imgad?id=CP7U7u-Gm7q4YBDUAxgxMgimBzKu44bkzA 21:23:25 right 21:23:41 oerjan, it seems a bit too complex to understand the comic 21:23:46 it goes to this rather entertaining scam-like thing: http://www.therichjerk.com/ 21:23:58 AnMaster: yeah it's not gag-a-day 21:23:59 AnMaster: typically one starts from the beginning of the archives 21:24:21 oerjan, that is what I prefer. Or gag every few days. I'm fine with short story arcs of maybe a week or so 21:24:39 SimonRC, yes I did that with IWC... and you know it took me 3 days of doing nothing else. 21:25:03 common problem, that 21:25:14 AnMaster: you don't have to catch up quickly 21:25:17 see also, tv tropes *duck* 21:25:18 that guy is not better than me. 21:25:37 oerjan, oh yes I hated his annotations when archive reading 21:25:38 oerjan: 300 firefox tabs and counting... 21:25:44 all the links to tvtropes 21:26:06 there are worse comics for annotation 21:26:19 oerjan, in fact I have to forcefully limit myself to a recursion depth of 2 on tvtropes 21:27:14 many comics that are by 2 people have 5 times as much text below the comic as in it. 21:27:34 fucks up your following of the storyline 21:27:41 also maybe i should mentioned some _finished_ comics i've read: 1/0, Narbonics, A miracle of Science 21:27:58 -!- impomatic has quit ("issue 3 of nanoWarrior http://tr.im/19ys :-)"). 21:28:02 SimonRC, yes indeed, I never read such a comic 21:28:19 oh Casey and Andy 21:28:20 oerjan, oh I read a few of Narbonics once, didn't really like it 21:28:25 read about 50 strips or so iirc 21:28:46 oerjan: done, done (but not the annotated repeat), done, done 21:28:58 i liked narbonics, but i dropped the new one by the same author (Skin Horse) 21:29:05 oerjan: why? 21:29:09 (well with coauthor) 21:29:23 it felt sort of boring 21:29:55 also, it had the bad sense of having comments on the same page, i got stuck on them... :D 21:30:09 oerjan, 1/0 I haven't heard of, and google just gives unrelated results, about binary computers... 21:30:10 (discussion forum) 21:30:53 AnMaster: um it's the first hit 21:31:07 oerjan, not here. 21:31:13 AnMaster: it's a slightly-anvilicious-yet-lampshaded work on have absolutely no forth wall 21:31:16 AnMaster: http://www.google.com/search?q=1%2F0 21:31:17 *fourth 21:31:32 Deewiant, cached results I assume 21:31:50 http://www.undefined.net/1/0/ 21:31:56 if you ignore the Monotheist Message in the 500s and 600s its good 21:31:59 *it's 21:32:04 because first result is en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_zero, then www.bbc.co.uk/go/homepage/i/int/sport/worldtop/4/-/news/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/7844592.stm 21:32:34 Deewiant, yes you don't get same result at all google servers at the same time point 21:32:37 is this really news? 21:33:02 ugh that comic needs javascript? 21:33:09 for my daily dose of the sick and twisted, I also read SMBC (since PBF and TPLIF are kaput) 21:33:22 AnMaster: for the navigation, alas 21:33:25 oh Triangle and Robert 21:33:26 TPLIF? 21:33:43 that's _very_ geeky 21:33:50 oerjan: yeah, TnR is another good bit of no-forth-wallery, with crap art 21:33:53 also no fourth wall 21:33:57 Deewiant: the parking lot is full 21:34:12 SimonRC, I feel no need for "sick and twisted" 21:34:17 the crappy art is actually turned into a plot device 21:34:22 but what does does abbreviations mean? 21:34:27 TPLIF is the one that did the world-adopts-language-consisting-entirely-of-"chicken" joke 21:34:28 what does it mean not to have a fourth wall 21:34:32 ah 21:34:36 oerjan answered already 21:34:38 oh I used to read dinosaur comics 21:34:45 sometimes it is quite good 21:34:53 PBF is Perry Bible Fellowship 21:34:54 oklopol: i did? 21:34:57 and you don't really need to read archive 21:34:59 for it 21:35:04 oerjan: the crappy art is actually turned into a plot device 21:35:23 oklopol: well through the lack of fourth wall 21:35:24 oerjan, ^ 21:36:25 oerjan: i wasn't sure at first whether not having a fourht wall meant what it means or that they *don't* break it. 21:36:29 you know 21:36:32 because it's hard to understand negations. 21:36:42 hm i looked a bit at Dinosaur Comics but it didn't hook me 21:36:49 the fourth wall comes from theatre, accoring to TVTropes 21:36:53 i don't understand dinosaur comics 21:37:11 oklopol: it's an exercise in restricted artform 21:37:15 i don't think i've understood even one strip, and i've read lots of them. 21:37:30 SimonRC: i understand the concept, i don't understand the jokes. 21:37:45 I don't read D.C. 21:39:27 * SimonRC eats pizza. 21:39:28 -!- icefox has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:39:43 * oklopol too, soon, probably 21:40:08 Ah yes, comics. 21:40:19 Consensus is that Freefall is the best one, I believe. :-P 21:40:31 SimonRC: i understand the concept, i don't understand the jokes. <-- I think it is often funny 21:40:41 kerlo, xkcd and IWC! 21:41:00 no way I accept any furry comic as the best one 21:41:23 it's not furry! except for the main character. 21:41:49 What's IWC? 21:41:58 I Want Cex 21:42:00 Irregular Webcomic 21:42:07 xkcd suffers from xkcd syndrome. 21:42:08 it's not furry! except for the main character. <-- bash.org time? 21:42:22 * oerjan doesn't read bash.org either 21:42:23 kerlo, what? beeing too geeky? 21:42:24 http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/ 21:42:39 oerjan, that isn't a web comic. it is a irc quote database 21:42:40 ... 21:42:45 an* 21:42:48 just irc? 21:42:52 "Hey, look! I can put a sarcastic statement in a speech bubble and call it a comic strip!" 21:42:57 oerjan, as far as I know it dominates 21:43:04 i sort of figured it was quotes, from the links i've seen 21:43:10 kerlo, well that is art. 21:43:14 s/in a speech bubble/between quotation marks/ if you want irony. 21:43:26 Also what comic is furry? 21:43:29 There's no point in having a comic strip if you're just going to have one character saying something. 21:43:32 Slereah2: Freefall. 21:43:40 kerlo, err do you mean xkcd? 21:43:43 I do not know it 21:43:44 Sauce? 21:43:47 AnMaster: yes. 21:43:56 kerlo, saw that duck rotation recently? 21:44:00 I thought it rocked 21:44:06 I have seen it. 21:44:06 *duck loop 21:44:13 kerlo, and you claim it is bad? 21:45:13 Not all of them. 21:45:32 IWC has more or less turned into a small webcomic empire, with Darths & Droids and Mezzacotta's 4 comics... 21:45:34 The Drake equation one was particularly bad, I think. 21:45:48 (for various values of "comics") 21:46:00 "You know, Frank Drake once said something that isn't quite right. He admitted it afterward, but still." 21:46:05 If I'm not mistaken. 21:46:11 kerlo, link? 21:46:28 and that must have been in the tooltip or? 21:47:04 http://xkcd.com/384/ 21:48:32 Not so much "he admitted it afterward" as "it was a rough guess that he expected everyone would forget about". 21:48:35 not that bad 21:48:40 well ok 21:48:53 kerlo, I don't require it to be perfect every day 21:49:01 but I like it overall 21:49:08 and it is geeky 21:49:34 kerlo, just remember it inspired youtube to add the "audio preview" for example 21:49:42 (for comments) 21:49:50 no idea if they still have that 21:49:51 Being influential doesn't mean I like it. 21:50:12 kerlo, and I happen to like it :) 21:50:22 Indeed. 21:50:49 How often does it preach about DRM? 21:51:27 I love hearing that DRM sucks, since it isn't obvious and Slashdot doesn't exist. 21:52:50 -!- Judofyr has joined. 21:53:24 kerlo, I don't read slashdot 21:56:35 -!- icefox has joined. 22:05:26 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklofyug. 22:05:37 fluyg floyug 22:05:57 are you speaking danish? 22:06:13 :) 22:06:15 o 22:06:16 o 22:12:30 en flyvende flue fløj? 22:14:00 hm? 22:14:08 * AnMaster considers what that means 22:14:20 en flygande fluga flög? 22:14:28 oerjan, stämmer det? 22:14:54 tror det 22:15:05 also I did start archive reading that freefall, not too bad so far, (131 comics done so far if I interpret the url format correctly) 22:15:18 iwc took a lot longer. bloody annotations 22:19:58 oerjan, btw, "a flying fly flied" except that is a lot more confusing in English 22:20:30 oerjan, was that a correct translation of what you said? 22:21:03 assuming what i said was correct 22:21:23 oerjan, it wasn't Norwegian? 22:21:24 * oerjan cannot guarantee that, not being danish 22:21:29 I see 22:21:34 um no 22:21:35 what would it be in Norwegian? 22:21:49 en flyvende flue fløy 22:22:03 Well closer to Danish than Swedish I think 22:22:04 admittedly not very different :) 22:22:07 Well,* 22:22:19 ei flygande floge flaug 22:22:24 ^ nynorsk 22:22:37 Closer to um... nothing 22:24:01 one word in common with swedish 22:25:17 true 22:26:52 -!- ehird has joined. 22:26:58 * ehird reads logs to catch up 22:27:18 hi ehird 22:27:18 :) 22:27:30 and I don't believe that. 22:27:34 oerjan, SimonRC: yeah, 1/0 is great, the religion part was kind of ridiculous though 22:27:52 no way I accept any furry comic as the best one 22:27:54 Insecure much? 22:28:17 If "furry" means "has anthropomorphic animal characters", then there's a lot more than webcomics you have to disregard... 22:29:26 Disregard them, though 22:29:29 Because you suck cocks 22:29:45 <`∀´> Corean webcomics superior nida 22:30:35 oerjan, SimonRC: After reading 1/0 I went onto Tailsteak's site, it had some anti-gay marriage stuff and I was like :'( 22:31:14 Don't worry, ehird 22:31:18 You can gay marry me 22:31:28 not in california 22:32:05 You can marry me, in the eyes of Satan 22:32:31 Verily. 22:33:28 hm 22:33:51 * oerjan wonders if norway has any registered satanist ministers with marriage rights 22:35:10 Me. 22:35:24 you're not norwegian. 22:35:59 Oh really? 22:37:07 Yay my copyriht infringement is going speedily 22:37:12 ^_^ 22:37:15 ... ANYHOW 22:37:35 STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM! 22:38:17 :< 22:38:25 But Apple's Leopard price is crazily overinflated 22:38:36 Stop using Apple 22:44:29 -!- alex89ru has joined. 22:46:17 Hello alex89ru 22:46:23 hihi:) 22:46:41 Slereah2: no 22:46:46 What's bringing you here mah boiii? 22:47:04 oO me? 22:47:27 Yes you. 22:47:47 The smell of esoteric lead me here 22:47:55 I like esoteric =) 22:48:24 Let's eso it up! 22:48:29 okay 22:48:56 ``.t`.t`.u`.bi 22:48:58 butt Result: i 22:49:00 :D 22:49:47 ````.b.u.t.ti 22:49:48 "" (line 1, column 12): 22:49:49 unexpected "i" 22:49:49 OO 22:49:50 expecting "!" or end of input 22:49:55 Oh? 22:50:17 You need an extra ` at the beggining 22:50:24 Okay. 22:50:28 `````.b.u.t.ti 22:50:28 butt Result: i 22:50:54 ``a`b`c`d`e`f`g`h`i`j`k`l`m`n`o`p`q`r`s`t`u`v`w`x`yz 22:50:54 "" (line 1, column 52): 22:50:55 unexpected end of input 22:50:55 expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`" 22:51:08 ``a`b`c`d`e`f`g`h`i`j`k`l`m`n`o`p`q`r`s`t`u`v`w`x`yzz 22:51:11 "" (line 1, column 53): 22:51:11 unexpected end of input 22:51:11 expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`" 22:51:19 ``a`b`c`d`e`f`g`h`i`j`k`l`m`n`o`p`q`r`s`t`u`v`w`x`yzs 22:51:19 "" (line 1, column 53): 22:51:20 unexpected end of input 22:51:20 expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`" 22:51:27 ``a`b`c`d`e`f`g`h`i`j`k`l`m`n`o`p`q`r`s`t`u`v`w`x`yzssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss 22:51:28 "" (line 1, column 82): 22:51:29 unexpected end of input 22:51:29 expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`" 22:51:32 Eh. 22:51:53 ``bssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss 22:51:54 "" (line 1, column 77): 22:51:54 unexpected end of input 22:51:55 expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`" 22:51:58 Yeah. 22:52:07 ``````.<.`.?..>i 22:52:08 <`?> Result: i 22:52:26 Hm. That char doesn't display. 22:52:55 ```````````.<.`.V..>. .n.i.d.ai 22:52:56 <`V> nida Result: i 22:59:06 hey 22:59:13 eso. languages like this one : 22:59:17 http://esolangs.org/wiki/2-ill 22:59:23 they dont have any effect =X 22:59:31 does it count as a language? 23:00:12 2-ill seems only to allow to move around through cells 23:00:20 alex89ru: it has input and output, too. 23:00:24 oh 23:00:45 aww rigth 23:00:48 I think I would define a language as a function whose input is a string. 23:01:07 I didn't read properly 23:01:19 north/south is in-/output 23:01:20 nice 23:01:28 alex89ru: consider something like Backflip or Smetana/Smatiny though 23:03:10 hm actually smatiny had output too 23:03:33 lol smetana seems to be funny 23:03:36 the swapping :D 23:06:49 nice idea 23:15:59 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 23:26:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:30:02 -!- alex89ru has quit ("Verlassend"). 23:35:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 23:47:30 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 23:57:53 ```ccc 23:57:53 Result: * 23:57:55 ````cccc 23:57:56 Result: * 23:57:58 `````cccci 23:57:58 Result: i 2009-02-08: 00:02:53 * SimonRC goes to bed 00:06:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:45:26 what's ihope's new nick? 00:45:53 $ihopes_new_nick: so where's your onoz interpreter? 01:10:46 -!- ab5tract has joined. 01:12:27 kerlo 01:13:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("godnatt!"). 01:29:41 -!- Slereah has joined. 01:30:07 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:30:58 -!- unlambda has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:41:47 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtGlQHAEwVo 01:45:49 -!- kwufo has quit ("Leaving."). 01:47:03 -!- kwufo has joined. 01:56:01 It's sad that I'm feeling good because I made this software fail in the same way on multiple platforms X_X 01:56:12 comex: ? 01:56:49 ````sii``sii 01:57:07 comex: did you want to compliment me on my prophetic ability? 01:57:58 -!- kwufo1 has joined. 02:04:24 -!- ab5tract has quit. 02:05:12 -!- kwufo1 has quit ("Leaving."). 02:17:00 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 02:21:41 -!- kwufo has quit (Connection timed out). 02:28:02 -!- kwufo has joined. 02:59:09 -!- jix_ has joined. 03:03:04 -!- kwufo has quit ("Leaving."). 03:06:35 -!- whoppix has joined. 03:12:16 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:26:44 -!- kwufo has joined. 03:44:12 -!- kwufo1 has joined. 03:58:48 reddit programming (3 clicks -->) ihope 03:59:08 -!- kwufo has quit (Connection timed out). 03:59:37 Oh, you were answering bsmntbombdood's question. 03:59:54 Let me find out what onoz is. 04:00:38 bsmntbombdood: write one. ehird would tell you that it's easy. 04:00:53 (Disclaimer: I don't actually know enough about ehird to truly make that statement.) 04:01:42 indeed... 04:01:55 reddit --> banana scheme --> brainhype --> onoz (ihope) 04:02:02 in the unimplemented category :( 04:02:22 onoz != me. 04:02:45 So my Reddit number is more like 4. 04:03:03 Inded, onoz --> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:Ihope127 04:03:06 And http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:Ihope127 = me. 04:03:10 mm 04:03:17 3 clicks to see the name ihope 04:03:24 and yesterday there was bf joust 04:03:30 what's with Agorans on reddit? 04:03:40 There are Agorans on reddit? 04:03:44 Other than you? 04:04:17 s/(?=on)/linked to / 04:04:46 banana scheme was on reddit? 04:04:48 Mm. 04:05:03 Well, I have to go. See y'allz. 04:05:05 it's on /r/programming at the moment 04:05:17 Does RProgrammer have anything to do with that? 04:05:19 I'd upvote it, but I don't have an account :p 04:05:32 wow, it's indeed on reddit 04:05:56 * lament dances? 04:10:39 it really belongs on http://www.reddit.com/r/Marijuana/ 04:18:28 Okay, I lied. 04:18:43 (Retroactively. It was not a lie when I told it, but it is now.) 04:18:58 I have returned so that I may confess a sin in ##sl4. 04:40:32 -!- kwufo1 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:13:18 -!- icefox has quit. 05:46:30 -!- icefox has joined. 07:50:50 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:13:32 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has joined. 08:13:52 -!- SpaceManPlusPlus has quit (Client Quit). 08:14:59 -!- kwufo has joined. 09:34:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 10:11:02 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:13:12 lament: you have pretty fingers 10:13:42 i always figured your skin was full of boils 10:13:52 ...i mean nice vid 10:18:35 * oklofyug writes his first youtube comment 10:19:38 darrr you go. 10:19:51 -!- oklofyug has changed nick to okloflaeg. 10:19:54 o 10:19:54 o 10:19:59 showah 10:20:00 -> 10:20:48 -!- ktne has joined. 10:20:51 hello 10:27:53 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:33:48 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 10:42:22 hello 10:47:53 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 10:51:30 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 10:58:34 -!- ktne has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:00:17 -!- ktne has joined. 11:00:26 my first `program` brainfuck http://pastebin.com/m469e5a92 11:00:44 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:09:49 hello world? 11:13:17 no. input 2 chars and print 11:15:04 i want do summator for two numbers, but begin i do it ^ 11:17:04 i just read until the second . 11:20:26 ok 11:28:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:44:58 >----< <--> <<< which one is longer? (you'll be so surprised!) 11:46:16 The longest is 11:46:40 you would know ;;;) 11:46:44 ...wait 11:46:50 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:07:37 -!- kwufo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:18:39 -!- Hiato has joined. 12:28:06 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:49:07 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 12:51:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:58:44 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:10:49 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:22:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:50:00 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 14:09:57 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:15:42 -!- Hiato has joined. 14:22:13 -!- ktne has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:24:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("restaring!"). 14:27:50 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:30:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:57:21 I have returned so that I may confess a sin in ##sl4. 14:57:22 wta 14:57:23 *wat 14:57:32 haha 14:57:42 what is ##sl4 about, anyway? 14:57:52 ehird: you are aware that "wat" is technically speaking a spelling error? 14:58:14 ais523: ##sl4 is the IRC channel for sl4.org, a mailing list about the technological Singularity 14:58:18 also, yes. 15:01:46 but yes, I'm rather wondering what the heck ##sl4 has to do with sins 15:04:36 SINgularity 15:04:40 -!- okloflaeg has changed nick to oklopol. 15:04:46 glad i could help 15:04:55 groan 15:05:09 are you groaning at me, or with me? 15:05:10 i hope the singularity doesn't make us all too intellectual for terrible puns. 15:05:14 oerjan and oklopol would go out of business. 15:05:36 ihope, the singularity 15:05:37 wait 15:05:40 that was even stupider 15:06:16 should probably go bite my cell phone 15:06:19 I wouldn't put it past ihope to be a rapidly self-improving strong AI. 15:06:38 well if someone here is, it's him 15:07:05 oklopol: or fungot 15:07:06 ehird: i really feel like going fast and such. i suggested a holy grail of web applications, and expressions that manipulate them or store to/ load from memory. 15:07:14 "i really feel like going fast and such." 15:07:18 he's talking about his self-improvement 15:07:21 be afraid 15:07:22 be very afraid 15:07:45 -!- kar8nga has joined. 15:07:50 ^style 15:07:51 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 15:08:56 In the future: 15:08:58 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp allofsentience 15:08:58 ehird: riastradh, i don't think so... 15:15:24 Unfortunately for the singularity, we still haven't asked AC how to reverse entropy. 15:15:29 maybe AC is the singularity. 15:18:18 I ask *every* computer how to reverse entropy. 15:18:28 pikhq: how's that going for you 15:18:29 You never know when it'll come up. ;) 15:19:10 ehird: So far, I've gotten answers ranging from "syntax error" to "Insufficient information." 15:19:39 pikhq: Wire your brain up to a serial cable and ask it. 15:21:26 Sorry; I'm waiting for ethernet jacks. 15:26:02 I bet google is the singularity. 15:26:15 As soon as they try and make it improve its indexing algorithm through the pages it indexes. 15:35:11 http://twitter.com/OHHDL 15:35:13 LOL WAT 15:43:05 His Holiness the Dalai Lama had been experiencing some mild discomfort in one of his arms over the last three days. On the advice of his personal physician, His Holiness left Dharamsala early this afternoon and arrived in New Delhi. After undergoing medical tests at Apollo Hospital, His Holiness left the hospital early this evening after having been diagnosed to be suffering from a pinched nerve. Doctors have advised some medication. His Holiness is spending 15:43:06 the night in New Delhi before returning to Dharamsala tomorrow to resume his normal schedule from Wednesday. - Office of His Holiness the Dalai Lama 15:43:25 hi comex 15:43:29 why do I feel the urge to laugh after reading so many 'His Holiness' 15:44:05 hi ais523 15:47:09 -!- alex89ru has joined. 15:49:17 fungot: So, how *do* we reverse entropy? 15:49:18 fizzie: how do you " work on a syntactic closures srfi?) address. :p 15:50:27 So, work on a syntactic closures srfi, give it the address, and it'll tell you how. 15:50:29 Trade! 15:55:23 fungot: so what source is this from? 15:55:25 comex: i think i use security by obscurity anyway?) ( allthough, lispme does let you look at all the colors and stuff are authored in latin. like fnord and rain. 15:55:41 ah, never knew fnord and rain were latin 15:55:45 comex: clearly, it won't tell you 15:55:45 ^agora 15:56:06 ^style agora 15:56:06 Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical) 15:56:06 I guess you mean 15:56:09 That. 15:56:11 comex: greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen 15:56:13 er 15:56:16 fungot: greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen 15:56:16 ehird: a zombie, has the lowest non-zero stain. ( f) the associate director of personnel may declare an interested proposal is 15:56:39 honestly, fungot would be impressive even if it were written in Python 15:56:40 comex: mark awards and penalties allowed by the assessor with respect to entities in the same month. 15:56:55 * ais523 agrees with comex 15:57:56 meh, megahal is better :P 16:03:58 o 16:04:00 o 16:04:13 oo k o 16:17:27 ais523: I forget, was Vaughan Pratt right in the end? 16:17:39 no 16:17:47 at least, his original claim was based on incorrect data, therefore false 16:18:01 this one: http://cs.nyu.edu/pipermail/fom/2007-October/012156.html 16:18:04 there followed a rather inconclusive argument after that, in which in the end we agreed that the original statement was ambiguosu 16:18:18 yep, that one's completely fallacious 16:18:29 at least, the argument's correct but the premises are wrong, so it's inapplicable to the situation 16:18:38 ais523: but, confirm this: 16:19:05 "It is possible, with a 2,3 machine and one sub-turing machine, to make the 2,3 compute something only a turing machine can" 16:19:54 yes, I can confirm that 16:20:02 that's good enough for me 16:20:12 ais523: and thus, it follows that 16:20:22 with a reasonable definition of "compute", I think the one in my original proof was good enough but I created a more clear-cut demonstration later 16:20:34 "it is possible, with a 2,3 machine and one sub-turing machine with the property that after one use, it self-destructs, to make the 2,3 provide an environment for generating the programs thereforth" 16:20:39 that is, you only need a sub-turing machine once 16:20:40 to bootstrap it 16:20:46 correct? 16:20:47 yes 16:20:52 well, if you have storage for an infinite amount of data 16:20:59 we're in platonic land. 16:21:02 that's good enough for me, then 16:21:09 in platonic land, correct 16:21:11 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 16:21:23 ais523: I think it may be more accurate to say that {2,3 + sub turing machine} might be the thing that is TC, though 16:21:33 kind of like the chinese box thing, it's the whole system combined that's intelligen 16:21:33 t 16:21:46 I think what came out of this is that turing-completeness was badly defined 16:21:51 after all, BF needs an input program to be turing complete 16:21:56 and you have to write that program in BF 16:22:02 yes 16:22:10 so it's actually BF, plus the process of translating a program into BF, that's TC 16:26:35 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:31:19 hah at the IWC poll today 16:31:39 it's a paradox :) 16:32:22 ha ha paradoxes are so funny. 16:32:54 also, it's not a paradox. 16:33:16 it's just psychology 16:35:39 ehird, no, because if more than half answers no, then the result will actually be more than half, and no will be incorrect 16:35:53 if more than half answer yes, then it will be incorrect as well 16:35:53 look up paradox. 16:35:55 it's not. 16:36:01 only the minority can win 16:36:09 but it's not impossible to win 16:36:16 it's just weighing up human psychology to find the answer 16:36:43 that depends on how you interpret it 16:37:05 no. 16:37:09 it really doesn't 16:37:11 it's not a paradox 16:43:06 Hm. 16:43:11 * ehird plans out dream language 16:43:26 yay, my underload interpreter is mostly complete. 16:43:35 It's a total FP language that has no compilation/runtime distinction, dependent types in the same language to infinite levels, 16:43:37 hi whoppix 16:43:42 which lang are you writing it in? 16:43:43 an extensible syntax and implementation at the base level 16:43:44 hi there. 16:43:47 perl. 16:43:58 I couldn't find any underload implementation on cpan, so I thought i'd write one. 16:43:59 I'd be interested to see it 16:44:23 I think I have a Perl version of my own lying around somewhere, but it probably isn't very robust 16:44:31 I'll paste it for you, although its not complete yet. 16:44:59 Ill yet have to implement a way to throw in custom callbacks for outputting. 16:45:21 ais523 has a 300-character or so Underload interp in perl 16:45:36 ah yes, I was golfing it for anagolf 16:45:40 it wasn't a robust one, though 16:45:42 http://codepad.org/hYbMoOl2 16:45:48 ais523: I can't imagine it being much more verbose 16:45:49 just one that was good enough to "legitimately" win 16:45:54 even if was robust 16:46:00 50 lines, max, I'd say 16:46:06 "Chuck::Underload"? 16:46:10 The specification is a bit unclear about how to handle ", so I haven't implemented quoting yet 16:46:13 whoppix: wow, that's... thoroughly overengineered. 16:46:14 also, mine was terribly inefficient 16:46:18 whoppix: don't, nobody else does 16:46:21 I should just take that out of the spec 16:46:28 ais523, just a random namespace I throwed it into, eclipse is always a bitch about those things. 16:46:32 you really don't need a separate paresr 16:46:34 *parser 16:46:41 ehird: you do if you want it to run fast 16:46:49 nope 16:46:50 it's not like BF 16:46:54 because you never skip past 16:47:00 parsing a quote is one-pass 16:47:03 ais523, I'll put it under Language::Underload or so, when I upload it to cpan. 16:47:14 the delay in an extra parsing step actually slows it down 16:47:15 also, shouldn't those dies be carps? 16:47:45 ehird: finding the other end of a heavily-nested (()) can be rather slow 16:47:53 especially if there are a huge number of bracketed elements inside it 16:47:56 parsing avoids that problem 16:48:00 ais523: yes, but parsing before running is identical, unlike in BF 16:48:07 except the overhead of an extra pass delays program execution 16:48:22 * ehird writes a perl interp himself to demonstrate 16:48:24 ais523, yepp, i just did this in an hour or so, quick and dirty. also, I could propably improve performance greatly by removing the is_valid_token check 16:48:41 which would then lead to runtime exceptions, rather than compile-time-errors 16:49:01 (not that it matters for most, anyway, since you have to re-compile code at runtime all the time) 16:49:06 you could probably speed it up further using a jump hash for the commands 16:49:12 (and not that performance matters at all anyway, its just for fun.) 16:49:27 ais523, a jump hash? what do you mean? 16:49:58 { 'a' => \¶nthesize, '^' => \&execute 16:49:59 and so on 16:50:10 then use the hash rather than an if/else if chain 16:50:15 ah, well, yes, but whatever, I don't care about performance. 16:50:20 not sure which is faster when you have so few commands, though 16:50:35 direct hash access would be significantly faster 16:50:40 than method invocations 16:50:53 my compiler worked completely differently 16:50:57 s/compiler/interp/ 16:51:02 let me try to find a link to it 16:51:10 ais523, that'd be interesting to look at. 16:51:33 my first thought was, to create a EBNF for some sort of higher-level-language, which I could then compile down to underload 16:51:44 but giving it a second thought, I think I'd rather compile it down to brainfuck 16:51:48 http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Underload+interpreter/ais523/1202246125&pl 16:51:49 268 chars 16:52:01 sorry about the lack of whitespace, I was going for a length record 16:52:05 ARGH MY EYES ARGH SHIT! 16:52:09 :) 16:52:09 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:52:17 run that through B::Deparse and it should look a lot nicer] 16:52:21 ais523, as you can see, I'm not :P 16:52:37 ais523, is that perl? 16:52:42 golfed perl 16:52:45 right 16:52:47 whoppix's link is more readable perl 16:52:56 also, I did all sorts of cheating things like $/=$] 16:53:05 which breaks if Perl's version number happens to be in the input Underload source code 16:53:10 but it's a few chars shorter than undef $/ 16:53:18 HEH 16:53:27 so what does $/=$ do? 16:54:15 i really think though, I should do something with the quotes, it wouldn't be much work, since I drag in Text::Balanced anyway, and the specification says something about quoting. 16:54:26 (but does not really define where or how to use it) 16:54:33 yes, that's because nobody ever did 16:54:50 low Underlambda tiers won't have it 16:55:02 (Underlambda lowest tier is a "fixed" version of Underload) 16:55:15 ais523, what about the perl winner, just 34 chars? 16:55:18 s/underlambda/unlambda/ ? 16:55:22 AnMaster: it was cheating 16:55:25 ah 16:55:35 it memorised the outputs that the test was looking for, and pasted one or the other back 16:55:41 whoppix: no, unlambda is quite different 16:55:50 ais523, ok, I don't know underlambda. 16:56:07 neither does anyone else 16:56:10 it's my vaporware language 16:56:20 ah, right 16:56:24 which will one day not be vaporware, honest 16:56:45 ais523, so underlambda can be compiled to underload, or something like that? 16:56:55 whoppix: yes, and compiled from Unlambda 16:57:05 although I want it to be compilable to and from anything without too much difficulty 16:57:14 it's invented as an intermediary language to compile esolangs via 16:57:23 ais523, that sounds interesting, did you made a spec or implementation? 16:57:26 anyway, http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Underload+interpreter/ais523(genuine)/1202731346&sed is another of my Underload interps 16:57:33 whoppix: I change the spec frequently 16:57:33 brb 16:57:45 and I have an implementation I keep more or less in synch with the spec 16:57:52 you sure like regexp 16:57:53 I'll put it on esolang when it's ready, which is not yet 16:58:15 whoppix: regexes tend to be shorter than anything else for golfed esolang interps, I find 16:58:28 I don't use them so much in larger projects 16:58:49 I never really played perl golf. 16:59:07 http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Underload+interpreter/yshl/1201872465&ps seems to be a genuine Underload interp in Postscript 16:59:32 and http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Underload+interpreter/hinoe(mugoi)/1202159887&c is a crazily short one in C, but it doesn't always work 16:59:41 as far as I can tell, it just uses memory without allocating it, or something 17:00:12 I haven't really done a lot of tests with mine yet, but it computes fibonacci sequences just fine. 17:01:39 I think I'll put that module into my bot and make a !underload command. It understands about 20 languages now. 17:01:53 how many are esolangs? 17:02:00 we could do with an egobot replacement 17:02:14 ais523, depends on wether you count perl as esolang :D 17:02:41 Perl in general isn't an esolang; various restrictions and modifications of it (such as golfed Perl) are 17:02:58 it supports perl, python, ruby, javascript, J, haskell, lua, that common kind of stuff, as well as perl6 (pixie/rakudo etc) farnsworth, and now underload 17:03:16 farnsworth doesn't work quite right yet 17:03:24 mostly non-esolangs, then 17:03:34 could you bring it in here so we could test? 17:03:38 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:03:41 actually, better not, I'd just get it into a botloop with fungot 17:03:41 ais523: an entity, unless the term " possess" and " owner" are unambiguous synonyms for " off hold" are synonymous. a player you name must play or incur a debt of the 17:04:25 ais523, its not irc, but rather in a little chatnetwork that me and a friend made on our own, with a JSON-based protocol, TLS encryption, and a lot of other stuff. I'm writing a GTK+ client for it, currently, as well as maintaining the perl network libraries to access it. 17:04:44 ah 17:04:59 whoppix, make it ignore fungot? 17:05:00 AnMaster: highest point total for the ambassador is authorized to perform a certain action " by paradox if e is allowed to stand. as soon as possible after 17:05:02 oh not irc 17:05:03 I see 17:05:04 we made it just for fun, and its still beta, but it has a lot of interesting features, as for example writing latex into the chat. 17:05:19 so that you can post formulas, sheet music, stuff like that 17:05:30 ais523, btw since I know you use emacs a lot, have you ever used pymacs? 17:05:43 no, I haven't 17:05:50 oh, ok 17:05:54 oh, and its going to support PGP for private conversations. 17:06:32 whoppix: I wrote my own underload that uses a jump table and has no pre-parsing step and is 100 lines shorter tan yours 17:06:35 :p 17:06:44 (and checks the stack size too) 17:06:50 ehird: in Perl? 17:06:51 now to test it 17:06:53 ais523: yes 17:06:57 it's an OO module, too 17:06:58 what about reusing something like that IM encryption that offered deniability(sp?) too 17:07:03 ehird, so what? 17:07:04 forgot the name of it 17:07:05 you can run multiple programs, check the stack, and replace the outputter 17:07:07 quite interesting 17:07:18 ehird, bet it doesn't even pass the cpan kwalitee requirements :P 17:07:44 about as much as yours is 17:07:56 yeah yeah, I know, its just for fun anyways. 17:08:43 Hm, I could implement a max stack size option. 17:08:57 that's easy in mine, too 17:08:59 :P 17:09:53 not that that would be a usefull feature, but anway. 17:10:05 irritating, if I open something in firefox and it asks to confirm cookie, (and blink the process bar once), when I switch to it the "confirm cookie dialog" ends up behind the main firefox window 17:10:10 sure non-modal dialogs are good bug... 17:10:12 but* 17:10:47 Windows loves to put pop-up baloons behing the start bar where I can't see them grr 17:11:09 SimonRC, not windows 17:11:09 Heh 17:11:11 never seen that one 17:11:16 using Linux 17:11:27 and it doesn't happen with konqueror, only with firefox 17:11:35 simonrc is referring to a related but different situation 17:11:40 we all know you don't use windows goddammit 17:11:41 whoppix: I have my bar on the LHS 17:11:53 LHS? 17:11:54 ehird, was just clarifying what happened to me 17:12:06 s/S/C/ 17:12:21 Large Hardon Collider? 17:12:43 well that is what LHC is. No idea about LHS 17:12:59 whoppix: Left-Hand Side 17:14:00 ah. 17:15:15 actually when I google define:LHC it seems like for once there is a TLA that is not used for more than one thing 17:15:46 (oh the irony, TLA is a TLA with more than one meaning....) 17:16:51 I recently discovered that the Java typesystem is terribly useful when one is trying to set up mocks using reflection. 17:16:57 *isn't 17:17:12 you just end up telling it to bugger off 17:17:42 and compilers disagree about what is allowed grr 17:22:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 17:25:04 my underload interp works 17:25:08 I only had one bug, and that was a missing char. 17:25:09 woot 17:25:21 it's also fast, and short, and robust, what point was I trying to prove again? XD 17:26:03 also, you can control how many instructions can run, with (...) counting as 1 instruction 17:26:08 and how large the stack can be 17:26:30 and you can control where the outputter goes, and run a program on a custom stack 17:26:50 ah, ^ has a small bug 17:26:52 * ehird fixes 17:30:17 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:32:48 -!- upyr[ema` has joined. 17:35:20 Off to the concerts, see you around 17:35:36 see you. 17:35:51 your ears will be toast, though 17:36:26 * oklofyug writes his first youtube comment 17:36:35 aspiring downwards? 17:37:07 :P 17:37:37 yes, i wanted to join the stereotype 17:37:38 o 17:37:38 o 17:38:08 ü 17:39:56 that's one sinister character mister. 17:40:00 interesting, the virus scanner finally managed to start a scheduled scan 17:41:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtGlQHAEwVo 17:41:18 that is awesome 17:41:29 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 17:41:40 "Age: 24" 17:41:44 LAMENT REVERSES HIS AGE 17:41:48 (audience gasps) 17:42:37 i don't want to reverse my age. i think oklopol agrees. 17:43:07 with the maybe being dead and all 17:44:06 but yes, I'm rather wondering what the heck ##sl4 has to do with sins 17:44:16 not a pun 17:44:17 please 17:44:18 :| 17:44:30 i think kerlo must have made an AI without ensuring it was friendly 17:44:31 x:D 17:44:39 heh 17:44:43 EVIL AI 17:45:35 fortunately it decided earth was too boring to care about, so went to conquer the andromeda galaxy instead 17:46:55 i hope the singularity doesn't make us all too intellectual for terrible puns. 17:47:23 of course not. but the new terrible puns will be incomprehensible to who we are now. 17:47:34 lol 17:47:53 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:48:29 also, fart jokes will be replaced with nebula jokes 17:48:47 hm 17:49:14 and jokes about the methane creatures on Titan 17:49:50 who will protest that they are not actually smelly 17:51:59 Unfortunately for the singularity, we still haven't asked AC how to reverse entropy. 17:52:21 someone asked that billions of years ago. it designed us as the answer. 17:52:37 also, we really shouldn't turn on LHC. 17:52:59 -!- upyr[ema` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:53:04 Hey, it's my internship >:| 17:53:09 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:53:14 oerjan: heh, I was listening to that last night too 17:53:17 Without the LHC, I ain't getting ma master! 17:53:46 SimonRC: to what? 17:53:48 Slereah: wow cool :D 17:54:04 note those comments were connected, btw 17:54:40 slerry what shall ya do there? 17:54:40 oerjan: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007jwp4 17:54:51 "I've _got_ to destroy the world, otherwise I won't graduate" 17:55:48 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 17:55:56 oerjan: i might want to reverse my age shortly though, you know, retry. 17:57:41 oklopol: you want to go back to diapers? 17:57:42 oklopol: your jew tube profile says you're 21 17:57:59 -!- ktne has joined. 17:57:59 hm? 17:58:04 hello 17:58:13 i have a youtube profile? 17:58:15 wait of course i do. 17:58:16 * oerjan had the impression oklopol was 19 17:58:20 anyone here who actually understands how chicken scheme implements call/cc? 17:58:28 i probably registered while i was underage? 17:58:46 ktne: ehird, possibly? 17:58:54 oerjan: well, is he around? 17:58:56 ktne: yes. 17:58:57 and didn't know how youtube works regarding underage + viewing big-boy vids 17:58:59 it's trivial 17:58:59 ehird: hi 17:59:01 since it's CPS 17:59:03 ehird: i kept reading that 17:59:08 and all functions therefore get the continuation as the last argument 17:59:11 it's just 17:59:13 ehird: i still don't get how call/cc works 17:59:14 in the implementaiton: 17:59:33 ehird: but what about local variables? 17:59:33 primitive-function(f, k) { call(f, arguments=[k], continuation=k) } 17:59:43 read the cheney on the mta paper, it explains it 17:59:49 i've read that numerous times :) 17:59:57 i just don't get it :( 17:59:58 not hard enough :-) 18:00:03 read the example compilation 18:00:06 i understand what it does 18:00:14 except i don't really understand how tail calls work 18:00:22 how is that there is no stack explosion with this method? 18:00:32 since the stack frames are still pushed on each function call 18:00:33 because you clear the stack periordically 18:00:37 oh 18:00:40 with setjmp/longjmp 18:00:40 so it does explode 18:00:44 read the example compilation 18:00:52 ktne: no, tail recursion works forever 18:00:53 well i understand what happens when you fill up the stack 18:01:00 you GC it 18:01:01 read the example compilation 18:01:08 no 18:01:08 you don't 18:01:12 hmm 18:01:12 you GC, then clear the stack 18:01:16 yes 18:01:19 i understand that 18:01:21 read the example compilation 18:01:28 it explains all this 18:01:31 but then the tailcall will trash memory 18:01:36 the idea of a tail call is that instead of "call foo; return" you do "goto foo" 18:01:55 SimonRC: i understand that, but this method seems to use normal C functions 18:01:59 it doe 18:02:00 s 18:02:01 read 18:02:03 the 18:02:05 example 18:02:06 the taillcall continues filling up the stack 18:02:07 compilation 18:02:16 ehird: i've read that 18:02:29 it answers your questions... 18:02:35 as a detail, why it doesn't use the paging mechanism to detect overflow? 18:02:49 it can if you want 18:02:55 ok 18:03:16 * oerjan somehow wonders what Dick Cheney has to do with functional programming 18:03:25 sounds evil 18:03:26 heh 18:03:35 ehird: but will the stack grow if you have a tailcall? that's what i'm asking 18:03:48 or will the stack pointer stay constant? 18:03:50 ktne: yes but then it'll be emptied perioridically 18:03:54 AHA 18:03:59 that was the whole thing 18:04:01 so tail calls still work 18:04:07 so basically it does trash your memory 18:04:10 NO 18:04:18 read the example compilation!!! 18:04:19 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:04:21 well it keeps allocating 18:04:25 GAH 18:04:25 until it fills up 18:04:28 no it doesn't 18:04:29 then it clears 18:04:31 no 18:04:41 besides you can do tail call optimization with it anyway 18:04:52 so it isn't even an issue if it was an issue which it wasn't 18:04:55 so is it possible? 18:05:05 is what 18:05:21 to use in-place execution 18:05:32 what 18:05:37 because this method naively implemented still walks around the stack 18:05:44 it just that it clears the stack periodically 18:06:00 so don't implement it naively 18:06:23 well this was my problem 18:06:29 because it doesn't look efficient at all 18:06:41 it is. 18:07:04 it looks horrible if you don't implement tailcall optimisations 18:07:15 it isn't 18:07:21 because the stack pointer keeps walking around 18:07:25 look, you ask for suggestions on implementing a dynamic language functionally quickly 18:07:26 in circles 18:07:30 I tell you about cheney on the mta, point you to chickn 18:07:32 all you do is complain 18:07:37 "doesn't look efficient to me" etc etc 18:07:38 no, i do not complain 18:07:45 it's just that you told me that it's there 18:07:51 and it wasn't there 18:07:59 it is 18:08:21 ok, but what about call/cc 18:08:26 that definitivelly isn't there 18:08:26 i told you 18:08:29 huh 18:08:31 what do you mean 18:08:44 how do you save your current continuation 18:08:49 i understand how you pass it 18:08:53 but how do you save it 18:08:57 it's not tehre 18:08:58 there 18:09:00 it is 18:09:05 you're not making any sense 18:09:38 this paper makes no sense 18:09:45 it's just a quick innacurate description 18:09:47 makes sense to m 18:09:47 e 18:09:51 read Chicken 18:10:02 that's rather accurate, accurate enough for a computer at least 18:10:13 the problem with the paper is that is too terse 18:10:20 so read chicken 18:10:21 it doesn't really tell anything except that stack trick 18:10:24 and the example compilation 18:10:43 maybe i'm dumb :( 18:11:32 just read chicken's source 18:11:34 it's simple 18:12:59 i'm opening a project right now 18:13:58 -!- alex89ru has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:19:03 btw, is chicken scheme state-of-the-art? 18:19:12 or it's just a fast enough implementation? 18:20:19 i read that chez scheme is fastest implementation available 18:23:07 chicken scheme is pretty fast 18:23:12 chez is the fastest but is $$$$$$$$ 18:23:29 i'm asking this because i'm designing my own language 18:23:44 and i'm now sure whenever to add continuations or not, they are very powerful 18:24:00 maybe some kind of restricted continuation? 18:24:00 but the naive way i can implement them it's so slow 18:24:03 Well, you've made closures awful for the sake of speed, I don't think continuations are worth it. 18:24:11 Of course, you're just building C here. 18:24:25 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:24:57 ehird: i'm looking for something "possible if you want" instead of clean, and a keyword for those closure vars is not that bad i think 18:25:14 especially since it you gain code readability too 18:25:19 it is, i would just ignore closures altogether if forced to program in such a languag 18:25:19 e 18:25:20 and rubbish 18:26:50 what is the name of the method specified in "cheney on the mta" paper? 18:27:03 Cheney on the mta. 18:27:06 :) 18:27:17 ktne: also google: Cons should not cons its arguments 18:27:32 ok, whatever with this method 18:27:37 -!- kwufo has joined. 18:27:45 you can allocate all closure variables on stack if their size is known 18:27:56 or even if their size is variable 18:28:02 yes 18:28:07 that's what the example compilation does 18:28:08 except if they are very large, in which case you have to allocate them in the heap 18:28:22 yes 18:28:24 so i guess i could get clean closures at no cost 18:28:28 yep 18:28:53 ok, so i could remove that limitation 18:29:00 yep 18:29:31 can you provide me a hint on where to start looking in chicken scheme? 18:29:43 i'm looking for the call/cc implementation, the place where the current continuation is saved 18:29:51 ktne: here's how you implement call/cc 18:30:12 (define (call/cc f #k) (call-with-specified-continuation (f #k) #k)) 18:30:22 where #k is the continuation argument passed to the end of all compiled functions 18:30:27 yes 18:30:31 as you can tell, that call/cc is O(1). 18:30:44 ktne: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation-passing_style 18:30:54 wait a sec 18:31:01 you transform the input program to CPS 18:31:03 do languages that do not use CPS 18:31:07 have to copy the stack? 18:31:10 yep. 18:31:12 or how do they save the continuation? 18:31:17 i see now 18:31:19 stack copying 18:31:22 that's why you use CPS :-) 18:31:30 :) 18:31:46 a bonus of CPS: since you make tons and tons of closures for the continuation, you're forced to make your closures really fast 18:31:50 which is a big win for closure use 18:32:39 ok, thanks, i have to do some work for 15min now 18:32:41 cya later 18:33:09 bye 18:33:11 :) 18:33:34 i was confused about copying the stack 18:33:49 yeah, this is all pretty tricky until you just "get" it 18:34:03 CPS + cheney on the mta reduces the amount of places you have to optimize, though 18:34:13 cps lets you not optimize continuations, focusing instead on closures 18:34:27 cheney on the mta lets you get really fast calls, focusing your optimization instead on the gc 18:34:30 etc 18:34:41 so in the end, most optimization boils down to closures and the gc 18:34:53 and both have quite a bit of literature on optimizing them 18:36:55 -!- Somebody123 has joined. 18:48:41 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:52:36 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:01:08 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:03:51 i ti'm back 19:04:37 is it possible to implement retriable exceptions? 19:04:44 or retryable 19:04:50 yes 19:04:52 they're continuations 19:05:06 the exception handler is a continuation, and if you pass a continuation at the point of the start of the try block to them, 19:05:09 they can jump back in 19:05:15 isn't it nice how everything reduces to continuations :P 19:05:22 yes 19:05:29 that's why i would like to have them 19:05:34 -!- Somebody123 has quit ("Leaving."). 19:07:07 how is cheney on the mta compatible with optimized tailcalls? 19:07:28 hmm 19:07:35 nevermind 19:09:19 easily 19:09:23 just do it like normal 19:11:38 but what happens if you have a try block inside a tailcall-optimized function? 19:11:39 night 19:11:54 how would the exception be thrown? 19:12:22 because there are missing stack frames 19:12:27 (optimized away) 19:12:35 obviously inside a try block is not a tail position 19:13:05 hmm, let me think 19:13:34 -!- Corun has joined. 19:13:54 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 19:13:59 let's suppose we use an obtuse fibonacci implementation 19:14:31 fib(2) throws an exception 19:14:54 and if that exception is caught then you return the precomputed fib(2) constant 19:15:00 hmm 19:15:13 that indeed appears not to be a tailcall 19:15:46 because you must execute the code that pops the exception handler from the stack before "returning" 19:15:55 but then, what about a loop? 19:16:02 a loop that has a try block inside 19:16:07 -!- Corun has joined. 19:16:56 for(i=i;i o 19:21:49 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:22:16 that's a loop too 19:22:45 but it's a bit too small to see if there's a try block inside 19:23:40 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:27:44 i like the i=i 19:28:05 great way to hide you're not actually executing that 19:28:40 in a hypothetical language that doesn't initialize variables to anything coherent automatically that is 19:29:52 in a very hypothetical language, couldn't i = i cause a crash? :D 19:30:27 oerjan: like haskell? 19:30:46 if you try to evaluate that i, you'd get a <<>> error 19:30:47 er i was assuming C-like 19:31:36 how about if i is an uninitialised reference? 19:31:44 i = i: set i to a fixed point of the function returning i given i. 19:32:06 something that doesn't initialize, and in which assignment can look at contents 19:32:18 s/look at/depend on/ 19:32:25 sorry 19:32:29 i meant i=0 :) 19:32:39 It's easy to prove that the identity function has a fixed point because it's a rotation. :-P 19:32:40 does C++ allow this? i don't know it 19:33:06 * oerjan swats kerlo -----### 19:34:13 kerlo: a rotation? 19:34:47 Yes, a rotation. 19:34:52 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:35:17 kerlo: what is that? 19:36:01 a very twisted concept 19:36:11 For any given axis, the identity function is a rotation by 0 about that axis. 19:36:20 ah, ok 19:38:47 is it possible to optimize loops such the above one in scheme? 19:39:31 well the goto the beginning isn't actually inside the try block... 19:39:47 unless you use some escape command 19:40:04 in which case that should probably break out of the try block too 19:40:08 " goto the beginning" i'm not sure i understand this 19:40:49 *jump to 19:41:24 i expect a lot of code to be written in this form in my language 19:41:30 mostly for array processing 19:42:29 ktne: if you implement loops as tail recursion, the try block there won't actually be _part_ of the recursion 19:42:41 hmm 19:42:54 just something done before recursing 19:43:06 i'm not sure i understand it 19:43:19 i will have to translate that loop in CPS form first 19:51:05 is there a good paper on transforming C-like languages in CPS form? 19:55:56 -!- alex89ru has joined. 20:03:47 -!- mib_mksvta has joined. 20:04:27 hi. 20:05:06 hello 20:05:36 I'm actually writing botte :-O 20:05:57 Current holdup: how to nicely load/unload plugins at runtime (they're written in haskell) 20:06:26 well there's a hackage library iirc 20:06:44 or two 20:07:05 hsplugins 20:07:29 hsplugins does too much 20:07:32 it's practically half of lambdabot 20:08:13 oerjan: it just calls ghc, doesn't it? 20:08:19 I could shell out to ghc, then use something like dlopen. 20:08:21 It's just kind of ugly. 20:08:44 it also uses some internal module loading stuff i think 20:09:02 yeah, dlopen won't get the instance of Plugin which is important 20:09:21 Tricky :-( 20:09:41 anyhow, i haven't looked much into it 20:10:10 http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/unix/System-Posix-DynamicLinker.html 20:10:11 Hmm. 20:10:32 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:10:47 What license is hs-plugins? 20:11:01 ./me looks 20:11:03 * mib_mksvta looks 20:11:10 oerjan: I'm ehird btw. 20:11:47 This library is distributed under the terms of the LGPL: 20:11:48 Can't read that, then. 20:12:31 http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/ghc/index.html eek 20:12:58 my god. 20:13:02 no, ehird is ehird. you are an EVIL IMPOSTER. 20:13:34 taking advantage of ehird's awayitude 20:13:45 StrictAnal <- O_O 20:14:57 http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/ghc/GHC.html Promising 20:15:09 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:16:27 GregorR: how long have you been reading Spamusement? 20:18:22 Idonno, I think I read through them first shortly before stevenf stopped, then somebody recently sent me a link to a comic on the forums and so I started reading those :P 20:19:07 * kerlo frowns 20:19:24 kerlo: what was the sin you told ##sl4 20:19:31 * kerlo mumbles something about sparse error correction codes 20:19:49 mib_mksvta: believing the conclusion more strongly than the premises. 20:20:27 For example: "It is probably raining. If it is raining, Daniel is probably carrying an umbrella. Therefore, Daniel is almost certainly carrying an umbrella." 20:20:27 Oh noes. 20:20:45 Was that the actual case? 20:21:28 No. 20:21:33 Should have been. 20:23:14 what was the case? 20:24:15 If understanding AI is possible, Friendly AI is almost certainly possible. Understanding AI is probably possible. Therefore, Friendly AI is almost certainly possible. 20:24:54 Just don't fuck up puns, okay? 20:25:17 puck up the fun, i say 20:26:43 I'm pretty sure kerlo will be responsible for the singularity which is why I said that 20:26:54 You are? 20:27:08 so kerlo, make sure stupid puns stay intact. also, omit oklopol from the singularity. he's hilarious enough as is. we need him post-singularity, you see, otherwise the world will collapse. of lack of oko. 20:27:09 GregorR: I have been known to like to their forums, so maybe me 20:27:17 kerlo: it follows by a similar argument to yours 20:27:18 got that kerlo? 20:27:23 now give fungot self-improvement routines 20:27:24 mib_mksvta: that it is. if this still does not possess less than the maximum 20:27:30 Ah, of course. 20:27:30 SimonRC: Who are you on the forums? 20:27:35 I'm not 20:27:39 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 20:27:59 SimonRC: (And no, "somebody" != "I don't remember who", I do remember who it's just not somebody relevant to this audience) 20:28:13 Something like this: I am possibly the smartest person in the world. It's likely that the smartest person in the world will be responsible for the Singularity. Therefore, I will almost certainly be responsible for the Singularity. 20:28:24 it is recommended that you _don't_ include oklopol among the goals of the AI. we don't want the solar system tiled with o's and k's. 20:28:33 lol 20:28:39 kerlo: No, more like only you're batshit insane enough to actually get the singularity going. 20:28:44 That would only happen if I decided to give the Solar System to oklopol for some reason. :-) 20:28:50 The others don't write their AI by starting with fungot, you see. 20:28:51 mib_mksvta: 3) entities explicitly specified by the clerk of the 20:28:53 You will. 20:29:02 Ah, yes, I do have a reputation for being batshit insane. 20:29:15 oerjan: I dunno, the whole universe replaced by okokokokoko over and over again would be abso-frickin-lutely hilarious. 20:29:41 You'd have to be batshit insane to mumble something about low-density parity check codes. 20:29:59 Incidentally, I don't really buy the Singularitarian view of a point of infinite improvement. 20:30:01 Planck time, and all that. 20:30:12 What's the Singularitaritaritarian view? 20:30:20 mib_mksvta: but if an oko falls in the forest and there is noone there to see it... 20:30:27 ...of that? 20:30:47 kerlo: The singularity is defined as the point where the recursive exponential self-improvement of the AI hits a point where it improves itself an infinite amount of times. 20:31:04 I argue that there cannot be such a point, due to the planck time and other universal limits. 20:31:07 That's a really weird definition. 20:31:10 It can go very, very fast, but not infinitely. 20:31:14 Anyone who subscribes to it is silly. 20:31:23 kerlo: Like Eliezer Yudkowsky? 20:31:38 Don't tell me EY subscribes to it. 20:31:39 It's in one of his essays. Go find it or something. 20:31:46 no u 20:31:53 K, in a bit. 20:31:55 anyone here knows a human readable paper on CPS transformation? From a C-like language to CPS form. The papers i have found are quite dense. 20:31:55 For now, BRB. 20:32:30 Rather: "I'm sure you are correct, but I believe that in circumstances like this, it happens that the burden of proof falls on you, not me, for which I apologize deeply." 20:32:54 Singularitarianism, like many other things, ranges from people who believe the obvious (Computers are going to get a hell of a lot more powerful), through those that believe the reasonable (There are several internet-level societal revolutions to come), to the ridiculous (suddenly we all ascend to a higher plane of existance and spread across the galaxy within the century) 20:33:06 do not conflate them 20:33:17 a quintillion apologies, tiled onto the universe 20:33:31 Higher plane of existence, sort of. Spreading across the galaxy, maybe not. :-P 20:34:07 humans are not going to seriously go to the stars 20:34:13 something derived from them? maybe 20:34:26 what about mind uploading? 20:34:33 i think that would be more beneficial 20:34:37 I'm not counting them under humans 20:34:39 and with that you could go to the stars 20:34:47 well they are persons 20:34:52 even if they are not biological 20:34:59 but if physical humans ever get there it will be for the amusement of some other more powerful type of entity 20:35:06 what is reasonable depends on unknown physical limits 20:35:14 ktne: I mean, not space opera 20:37:01 mib_mksvta: given that the strictness analyser is the most important part of the GHC optimiser, I agree that that is an unfortunate name 20:37:30 SimonRC: well i would certainly hope it is being anal about what it does 20:37:36 heh 20:39:01 I don't think Freud had computer programs in mind 20:39:55 no he had his mother in mind, obviously 20:40:04 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:40:40 Sigmund Freud is his grandson, y'know. 20:41:53 I'd say that pre-Singularity biological humans are deserving ipso facto. 20:42:09 (Raise your hand if you think that was a batshit insane thing to say.) 20:43:20 deserving what? 20:43:30 What they want. 20:43:47 "ipso facto"? 20:43:59 Do you know what "ipso facto" means? 20:44:08 not certain 20:44:12 Wiktionary > me. 20:46:25 while half-humans must ipso facto half not be 20:47:02 Half-humans are probably not pre-Singularity. 20:50:26 * SimonRC considers the riots of the 40s 20:50:50 where 10000 furries want the right to GM their children 20:51:00 by 40s I mean 2040s 20:51:03 :-D 20:51:38 and then the riots of the 2060, when the children reverse that 20:51:58 hm 20:52:22 the C21 will be fun 20:53:13 although by 2070 it will be moot since people can reengineer themselves on the fly 20:54:35 Yes, it will be fun if ones idea of fun is sufficiently twisted... :-) 20:56:46 oerjan: if you believe Accellerando, the Earth will have been disassembled by the end of the century. 20:57:46 by 2100 everyone will be so sick of it that they will live in virtual simulations of close to the year 2000. 20:58:12 heh 20:58:13 and coincidentally, this is recursive, and we're not the first iteration. 21:00:55 I say by 2100, society can't even sustain current level of technological development... :-/ 21:04:05 Back. 21:04:47 Orion's Arm gives some intersting reasons why any non-related civilisations we eventually meet are likely to be at a technological level to our own. 21:04:58 SimonRCSingularitarianism, like many other things, ranges from people who believe the obvious (Computers are going to get a hell of a lot more powerful), through those that believe the reasonable (There are several internet-level societal revolutions to come), to the ridiculous (suddenly we all ascend to a higher plane of existance and spread across the galaxy within the century) 21:05:06 I am referring to Eliezer Yudkowsky's beliefs, mainly. 21:05:12 ok 21:05:47 kerlo: Here's the source. 21:06:35 (The idea is they are so distant that we will meet them by contact of high-speed wormhole ends being carted around. Time dilation means that ultra-long-distance exploration will still not take much time at our end.) 21:06:38 Now take the Transcended version of S{n}, starting at 2. Half a time-unit later, we have 3. A third of a time-unit after that, 6. A sixth later - one whole unit after this function started - we have 64. A sixty-fourth later, 10^80. An unimaginably tiny fraction of a second later... Singularity. 21:06:39 http://yudkowsky.net/obsolete/singularity.html 21:06:52 Yes, it is marked as Obsolete, though. 21:07:53 What I think about those: "Computers are going to get a hell a lot more poweful": Doubtful. "There are several internet-level societal revolutions to come": There are multiple large societal revolutions coming. "suddenly we all ascend to a higher plane of existance and spread across the galaxy within the century": Utterly ridiculous. 21:09:11 "Computers are going to get a hell a lot more poweful": Doubtful?!?!?!?! 21:09:11 What drugs are you on, I want them. 21:10:06 Seriously, _that_ is ridiculous. 21:10:06 i don't find that an unreasonable assumption 21:10:18 oklopol: ? 21:10:48 well we've hit the wall already, who says there's a simple way out. 21:11:43 i mean i don't believe that, but i don't think it's a ridiculous assumption. 21:12:49 One ridiculous thing EY's said: both "we cannot comprehend higher-than-human intelligence, duhh" and "we can make a higher-than-human intelligence AI" 21:12:55 Just a leeeeeetle contradictory. 21:13:31 kerlo: Tell me how that works. 21:15:25 mib_mksvta: i think that means we cannot comprehend the _consequences_, but we can still set up the _initial_ concept 21:15:49 Ah. 21:15:52 well that's the science fiction aspect, X is cool and higher-level, and X could exist 21:16:08 No, he's said that if we could understand things more intelligent than ourselves we'd be that intelligent. 21:16:10 I'm pretty sure. 21:17:12 Ilari: care to justify that "doubtful"? 21:18:31 mib_mksvta: Essentially running against technological limits in multiple ways, and not being able to deal with the consequences. 21:18:51 Ilari: I don't disagree that there are limits, I just think that current computers are very far from them. 21:19:55 mib_mksvta: Some other limitations make how far current computers are from theoretical limits pretty much irrelevant... 21:20:10 Ilari: I'm waiting. 21:22:17 And besides, increasingly advanced semiconductor fabs are becoming exponentially more expensive... 21:22:45 enumerate these other limitations 21:23:04 The most signaficant one: Energy. 21:23:19 More precisely, technologically usable energy. 21:23:28 Mm. 21:23:43 But we can come up with more efficient energy, too, no? 21:24:07 Energy use efficency improvements don't yield that much. 21:24:33 there is plenty of energy from the sun 21:24:53 just the other day there was this energy chart on reddit 21:25:11 Yes, on order of 100PW, but how much of that is technologically usable? 21:25:37 one thing sticking in the mind: energy from sun per DAY > all electricity used since tesla 21:25:50 Note that I'm not so sure about the Singularity: I find the prospect of an X level intelligence being able to create an X+Y intelligence unlikely. kerlo will probably argue with me about this. :P 21:25:56 (Electricity is 'technologically usable energy'). 21:26:01 I do think computers are going to get a lot more powerful, though. 21:27:34 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:28:01 hi GreaseMonkey. We're discussing the technological singularity. 21:28:30 My opinion of tecnological singularity is that its utter pile of crock... 21:28:43 'lo. 21:28:58 hmm, i think that we should have some common standards 21:29:03 e.g. wishbone :D 21:29:06 Ilari: I think you're one of the two extremes in this channel, the other of which is kerlo, as far as I know. 21:30:12 so yeah, uh, what do you mean by "technological singularity"? 21:31:21 The creation of a smarter-than-human AI which recursively self-improves. 21:31:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity 21:31:57 oh. right. 21:32:59 tl;dr so far: kerlo talks about it like it's obviously happening, I say some things, SimonRC is extremely ... moderate, Ilari says it's a bunch of bullshit 21:33:38 And doing stuff that we have no idea of consequences of gives me creeps (fortunately I don't see this one happening)... 21:34:04 Ilari: Thank god you've never been around when someone's trying to make progress. 21:34:04 while someone may be able to create a program which can fix its own bugs and the bugs of others, i don't think it will be able to be a heck of a lot more intelligent than us. 21:34:19 it would have to be based on a neural network for it to do that 21:34:26 err, no 21:34:28 it'd just have to be AI. 21:34:29 and then again, you'll probably run out of RAM. 21:34:38 heh 21:34:44 always practice extreme moderation 21:34:52 best AI is a neural network IMHO 21:34:53 a recursive self-improver more intelligent than us could find RAM, surely 21:35:12 GreaseMonkey: that's rather ridiculous, neural networks can't do all that much 21:35:28 they're as much thinking as markov chains are conversationing 21:35:38 if you wrap around it, then it can be good 21:35:45 uh, NN > MC 21:35:53 I know 21:35:55 it was an analogy 21:36:09 GreaseMonkey: so you think AI will _never_ progress beyond neural networks? 21:36:11 it all depends on the situation though 21:36:26 i'm saying that neural networks is probably the path to go along 21:36:44 No idea of consequences is pretty much different from understanding the consequences even poorly... 21:37:47 I'd say progress we had no idea of the consequences of has happened before. 21:38:00 But if it's going to happen, it's not going to be something we can choose... 21:38:30 And worse yet, understanding the consequences but not paying attention to them... 21:38:57 The singularity would pretty much be the definition of not understanding the consequences, so that doesn't really apply 21:39:16 also, if you want a good degree of intelligence, you could use a neural network for triggering behaviours based on "emotions", and "emotions" based on input 21:39:22 Although if we're going to kill ourselves off, it'll probably happen in some simpler way. 21:39:26 Like gigantic nuclear war. 21:39:36 GreaseMonkey: That's kind of simplistic. Whereby kind of I mean really 21:39:45 this is just a component. 21:40:03 Hum de dum. 21:40:16 Neural nets are weird. 21:40:31 kerlo: so what -is- your opinion on the singularity 21:41:21 Bayesian networks are theoretically nice. The problem with the neural networks we have is that they don't seem to be self-modifying in any way. 21:41:37 mib_mksvta: my opinion is "yes". 21:41:45 Are you asking what I think the consequences will be? 21:41:49 kerlo: you could apply a feedback 21:41:51 kerlo: More detailed opinion ploxkthx 21:42:01 mib_mksvta: more detailed question plz? 21:42:01 Yeah. What consequences, how will it come about, ... 21:42:28 mib_mksvtaYeah. What consequences, how will it come about, ... 21:42:32 There is pretty big difference between just inventing some technology and actually using that technology. 21:42:34 Let me go ahead and design a neural net real quick, 'kay? :-P 21:42:54 kerlo stop ignoring me :P 21:44:23 Sorry, I got disconnected for a moment. 21:44:52 kerlomib_mksvta: more detailed question plz? 21:42mib_mksvtamib_mksvtaYeah. What consequences, how will it come about, ... 21:44:53 mib_mksvta: well, I can't say how it'll come about. Might emerge relatively spontaneously from a collection of relatively intelligent things. 21:45:32 It might be created by a Manhattan Project, it might be created by an educated genius, it might be created by an ignorant genius. 21:45:37 When do you think? 21:46:34 kerlo: . 21:46:34 Within 100 years is likely, it seems. 21:46:47 Maybe later. 21:46:55 How wonderfully vague 21:46:59 Indeed. 21:47:07 Alright then... Consequences? (Let's say 'immediately after' for a time frame). 21:47:51 Hmm. 21:48:32 As in, Mr. My First Singularity hits enter on his keyboard after typing "ghc --make smarter_than_human_ai; ./smarter_than_human_ai". 21:48:40 all my body parts are pretty. 21:48:59 lament: eh? 21:49:08 Perhaps it would discreetly take over the Internet. 21:49:14 SimonRC: he's replying to an ancient comment. 21:49:19 kerlo: That's not very Friendly. 21:50:01 Hm? 21:50:01 mib_mksvta: it could be trying to assure there's no unfriendly ones out there :D 21:50:07 heh 21:50:09 Perhaps it would discreetly take over the Internet, set up an oracle service, earn money, and repay the people it took computer stuff from. 21:50:42 I would say that discreetly taking over the internet is not a Friendly task regardless of how it pays back. 21:51:22 That's comparable to saying that cutting people open is evil regardless of how it pays back. 21:51:28 kerlo: Do you disagree? 21:51:36 I do disagree. 21:51:42 kerlo: If the singularity kills someone, then makes 10 babies, that isn't Friendly. 21:51:55 If it wanted to do really hostile act, perhaps it would attack control computers of all kinds of real-world important systems. Attack and successfully disable power grid and its game over. 21:51:56 What if the Singularity kills someone, then saves ten? 21:52:19 Ilari: the idea is to make it not do that. 21:52:41 kerlo: How do you define Friendly AI? I'd define it as an AI applying utilitarianism over humanity. 21:53:05 So killing one person, then saving ten -- if they must be interlinked -- is probably Friendly. 21:53:17 But doing harm to the internet, and merely paying back, is still an unfriendly act. 21:53:37 Utilitarianism does not value equality at all. 21:53:52 That is true. It values the group as a whole. 21:54:07 Then again, people wouldn't like extreme inequality. 21:54:24 * SimonRC dislikes this area of conversation. 21:54:28 kerlo: Yeah, but think of what would happen if Ayn Rand wrote the seed AI. 21:54:32 That would be bad. :P 21:54:32 * SimonRC goes to bed. 21:54:33 SimonRC: Why? 21:54:37 bye 21:54:40 So I would probably consider utilitarianism a valid approach. 21:54:57 Is Ayn Rand an extreme deregulationist libertarian dude? 21:55:09 She's female, and dead since the 50s. 21:55:15 She founded objectivism. 21:55:18 She was a sociopath, naturally. 21:55:22 Yeah, extreme libertarian. 21:55:27 "Altruism is morally reprehensible" 21:56:53 With deregulation stuff, all humans get laid off and starve. 21:57:02 mm. 21:57:14 kerlo: I wonder how mainstream news organizations and politicians would react? 21:57:47 That would be fun. 21:58:10 "A terrist is trying to take over the world with his computer! We must bomb him and his network before it is too late!" 21:58:24 It would be quite terroristic. 21:58:54 "A human is trying to step on our hill! We must bite him repeatedly bite him before it is too late!" --an ant 21:59:03 s/ bite him / / 21:59:17 We must repeatedly before it is too late! 21:59:33 "The 'Singularity Institute' for 'Artificial Intelligence' today announced that they had 'created "smarter than human AI"'. SOME SCIENTISTS say that this is in fact a load of rubb*evaporates into the stars as a God*" 21:59:36 There was no g at the end. 21:59:58 kerlo: true. 22:01:04 So, prediction: kerlo will cause the singularity by modifying fungot. oklopol will be the only human left behind, as he is ominipotent and oko and immune. 22:01:05 mib_mksvta: an agoran decision has an honor of each week, 22:01:12 All opinions to the contrary are wrong. 22:01:59 Wait, isn't fungot just a Markov chain bot? 22:02:00 kerlo: their debts to each officer with a list of all shareholders.) the delegated player ceases to to 22:02:14 kerlo: It can also execute Brainfuck and Underload. 22:02:14 BUT 22:02:17 It is written in Befunge-98,. 22:02:23 That is why it will be the seed AI. 22:02:28 because you, kerlo, are batshit insane. 22:02:42 kerlo: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt Get to work 22:02:43 mib_mksvta: ( c) a player who makes further play impossible by eir actions or lack thereof, or 22:02:50 this is obviously logical 22:03:21 Hmm. 22:03:50 Can't I just run a random subleq program instead? 22:04:20 Okay. 22:04:29 Anyway, suppose I were to batshit insanely start trying to make AI right now. 22:04:52 kerlo: btw, since you think the singularity will happen, does that mean you think intelligence X can comprehend X+Y intelligence? (well, you must) 22:05:05 IMO that's nonsensical 22:05:26 To an extent, certainly. 22:05:50 Well, it depends on whether "intelligence" includes capacity for improvement. 22:05:55 kerlo: so you believe there is a lower bound on X and the higher bound on Y? 22:06:08 That is, a monkey can't understand a human but a human could understand the seed AI to write it? 22:06:09 Do you see anything inherently wrong with creating an idiot that becomes a genius? 22:06:29 No, I'm just not sure humans can understand smarter-than-human intelligence to create an AI that is 22:06:37 It is possible to get to X+Y intelligence without X intelligence understanding it. But that's likely too complicated to be practical with technological stuff... 22:06:51 Well, the advantage is: 22:07:03 if humans can create smarter-than-human AI, we don't have to 22:07:05 We don't need to create smarter-than-us intelligence, only more-flexible-than-us intelligence that can make itself smarter than us. 22:07:06 we just have to create human-intelligence AI 22:07:13 which can then make the smarter-than-us intelligence for us. 22:07:35 Making something in equal intelligence to us' easiness >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Making something more intelligent than us's easiness 22:09:25 If I have something whose intelligence is equal to mine, improving it by anything at all will make it more intelligent than me. 22:09:42 Mm. 22:10:22 It seems that *the* problem with Friendly AI, and perhaps strong AI as well, is making it so that the AI will recognize any change to itself that would change its supergoal before making such a change. 22:11:49 Yess. 22:11:49 *Yes. 22:11:53 So we ought to find a class of changes to AI guaranteed not to change its supergoal. 22:11:56 If the AI box worked, it could just simulate it to see. Unfortunately... 22:12:42 Even if it worked, it would have to simulate a modified version of itself, plus, presumably, bits of the universe. 22:13:16 Mm. 22:13:59 These things sure are complicated, huh? 22:14:35 That's why I refuse to think about anything complicated. 22:14:42 :( I tried to teach a neural network addition on two bits 22:14:46 If you want to be batshit insane, you have to learn to ignore these things. 22:14:46 It failed 22:15:17 So we ought to find a class of changes to AI guaranteed not to change its supergoal. And then, um... 22:15:37 Oh, we also have to find a way to prove that the supergoal of an AI is in fact a given thing. 22:17:24 iiuc there is also the problem of finding the right supergoal 22:17:43 "Do things. Also, be nice please." 22:18:47 CEV. 22:19:12 wat 22:19:24 Can an AI really be said to have precisely one supergoal? 22:19:43 well, if it has multiple goals 22:20:01 then it needs some comparation metric to use to decide which one will follow 22:20:08 at least for the moment 22:20:15 i think the supergoal is meant to be the overriding goal 22:20:19 but this means that there is just one weighted supergoal 22:20:32 CEV: "Give us (humanity) what we would wish for if we knew more, thought faster, were more the people we wished we were, had grown up farther together; where the extrapolation converges rather than diverges, where our wishes cohere rather than interfere; extrapolated as we wish that extrapolated, interpreted as we wish that interpreted." 22:20:59 That's not what I mean. 22:21:30 If the AI wants the diamond, and it believes that the only way to get the diamond is by getting box A, and so it decides to get box A, what is its supergoal? 22:21:40 Get the diamond? 22:21:40 I guess I need more iffage. 22:22:03 -!- olsner_ has quit ("Leaving"). 22:22:05 If all that and it also decided that it would not change its mind about its decision to get box A no matter what. 22:22:21 Be stupid? 22:22:55 No. :-P 22:23:27 The thing is, I guess, its supergoal is to get the diamond, but it's incompetent at doing so. 22:23:39 If you want the diamond and think the only way to get the diamond is via box A, and you realise you can't get the diamond, and you have no other reasons for getting box A, then getting box A is an act of sheer stupidity. 22:24:29 Suppose an AI came to believe that from then on, its senses would attempt to deceive it. 22:24:38 The best course of action would be to ignore its senses completely. 22:24:53 I disagree. 22:25:06 The best course of action would be to believe what its senses say to it is reversed. 22:25:54 So that if its senses told it that the sky is not green, it would come to believe that the sky is green? 22:26:09 Saying nothing but falsehoods is not the best way to deceive a person. 22:26:18 True dat. 22:26:25 kerlo: how about it'd never believe that because its senses aren't sentient 22:26:33 i mean unless they are which they shouldn't be 22:27:07 My senses are sentient. 22:27:29 o rly 22:27:34 I disbelieve that your ears, eyes, mouth are sentient. 22:27:42 I disbelieve that your skin is sentient. 22:27:54 Okay, s/senses/sensations/g 22:28:38 Let's write an AI. :P 22:28:55 If one really wants to deceive a person, expose it to same falsehood from all directions and often (much more often than they hear the truth)... 22:29:27 Yeah, but global falsehood is not deceiving: just flip it. 22:30:05 I'd write an AI, but unfortunately, this would require sheer gibbering stupidity, blank incomprehension of the Singularity, and total uncaring recklessness. 22:30:24 Yeah, but how does one tell which way is correct? 22:30:25 All of which you can obtain! 22:30:25 Sorry, that was a typo. I meant to type "I can't". 22:31:00 Don't you just hate it when you go into a trance and quote Eliezer Yudkowsky when trying to press the shift button? 22:31:06 Ilari: if you know it's going to lie to you in that way, ... 22:31:12 kerlo: I think you have an obsession problem. 22:31:34 Also, um, didn't EY advocate writing a seed AI? 22:31:41 He did. 22:31:53 So... 22:32:09 He was talking about writing AI with one of our subgoals (e.g. solve the Riemann hypothesis) as its supergoal. 22:32:11 ah 22:32:11 The other way to get a Riemann Hypothesis Catastrophe is to make solving the Riemann Hypothesis a direct supergoal of the AI - perhaps the only supergoal of the AI. This would require sheer gibbering stupidity, blank incomprehension of the Singularity, and total uncaring recklessness. 22:32:13 mib_mksvta: I don't think you can know that (unless you find out)... 22:32:16 Yeah. 22:32:27 Ilari: It was part of kerlo's question. 22:33:48 Hmm... I think I'll stop bothering the people who don't care/dislike the singularity in here. kerlo, others: if you want to continue, I've set up a treehouse in #zot. 22:34:36 Mmkies. 22:35:07 -!- mib_mksvta has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 22:37:23 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:45:34 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 22:47:00 ehird is promoting artificial artificial artificial artificial artificial intelligence intelligence intelligence intelligence. 22:47:15 :D 22:51:23 -!- alex89ru has quit ("Verlassend"). 23:02:08 -!- abc has joined. 23:03:19 -!- abc has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:06:31 -!- jix_ has quit ("..."). 23:21:27 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:21:47 -!- oklopol has joined. 23:24:05 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:24:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("bye"). 23:26:25 -!- ktne has quit ("Leaving."). 23:33:29 #zot's quiet. Someone should join. 23:36:34 Hint hint. 23:38:08 wtf is zot 23:39:03 At least its one (pretty rare) metasyntactic variable... 23:39:14 bsmntbombdood: Zotalicious, for one. 23:39:40 But it's just a random name for discussion of a variety of topics including AI, cake, #zot, and the topics applicable in #zot. 23:39:42 Mostly the first one. 23:45:36 I'LL HAVE YOU KNOW THAT I AM 0% ZOT 23:45:46 :< 23:49:32 lament: the pianidio is awesome. 23:56:53 -!- radioactivity has joined. 23:58:14 hi 23:58:27 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:58:59 -!- macondo has joined. 23:59:21 hi 23:59:26 -!- macondo has left (?). 23:59:32 ;) 2009-02-09: 00:00:16 wut 00:00:22 wut? 00:06:34 hm.. 00:06:43 who're you then? :) 00:09:03 im ume.. from argentina.. 00:09:09 you? 00:09:29 England. What brings you here? 00:09:57 i dont really know, i was wondering about irc, i use to use it a lot.. few years ago.. 00:10:07 used.. 00:10:37 :) this channel's about esoteric programming languages. heard of them? 00:11:18 oum, no, i thought it was about esoteric.. themes.. whats esoteric programming languages? 00:11:42 A lot of people coming in here thinking that 00:11:56 jeje 00:11:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_languages 00:12:04 what are esoteric themes? 00:12:11 oklopol: esoterica 00:12:15 "themes" 00:12:18 :| 00:12:19 well k. 00:12:21 "magick" and all that. 00:12:57 jeje 00:12:59 i guess our current topic doesn't help 00:13:34 radioactivity: is jeje laughter? 00:13:40 yes 00:13:49 just yesterday i was reading about turing 00:13:50 spanish people do that :-P 00:13:51 oh argentina 00:14:01 oh, yes, is a laugh 00:14:15 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:14:34 you make more like 'hah' laughs, right? 00:14:37 i was actually just going by kerlo speaking spanish today. 00:14:44 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 00:14:51 radioactivity: "hahaha" is the typical english laugh, yeah 00:14:53 radioactivity: i use heh, hehe, hah and lol 00:15:04 they all have slightly different connotations 00:15:23 heh: you're boring 00:15:25 hehe: amusing 00:15:27 well okay hehe and heh have slightly different connotations, the rest have entirely different ones. 00:15:27 hah: you're stupid 00:15:30 lol: whatever man 00:15:40 lol is more like a no-laugh 00:15:48 lol -.- 00:15:58 lol lol lol lol 00:16:14 hehe -> heh -> hah for "funnier" -> "wittier" i think. 00:16:32 is like a guy \ o / but l o l 00:16:39 smileys for stuff i actually lol at 00:17:03 i do, more like je, jeje, jajajaj. 00:17:22 yeah I think it's because in spanish j = y kind of sound right 00:17:22 ? 00:17:31 when i really laugh i go wHUAUhAHHUWU 00:17:45 is more like a h and a y 00:17:50 i go "HAHAHAHAHAHAhadhajsgdkjaskfhaksjdfhddfglhkfhjk" 00:17:52 is between those 00:17:58 ajjaj, like that 00:18:44 y kind of sound..? 00:19:17 no is more like... 00:19:40 sounds pretty much like your 'ha' 00:19:55 :) 00:20:02 but here the H is more like a no-sound (?) 00:20:03 afaik spanish "j" is english "h", but not as deep in the mouth 00:20:10 to be phonetically exact. 00:20:59 radioactivity: you could just say you don't pronounce it. 00:21:05 here if we say something like 'voy a hacer pasteles' the word 'hacer' sounds like there is no first letter. 00:21:11 yeah, is simplier. ja 00:21:32 i dont really speak lots of english, sorry. 00:21:33 but you don't have to explain, everyone knows spanish 00:21:57 oki/ 00:22:33 tbh i didn't even understand what you said there 00:22:41 you're gonna make pancakes? 00:23:24 its more like pies 00:23:35 and no, im not. 00:23:40 ;p 00:25:23 well i didnt knew this esoteric programming thingie 00:27:24 jejaj, brainfuck, nothing to do with operation mindfuck, right? 00:27:41 i don't know operation mindfuck 00:27:50 * ehird googles. Discordian thing. 00:28:59 aha 00:29:43 i like discordians.. 00:29:49 so 00:29:50 ehird 00:29:58 I'm deciding whether I want to learn haskell 00:31:24 uuurgh 00:31:32 why would i get 0xffffffffdeadbeef instead of 0xdeadbeef 00:32:09 beebeebeebee 00:32:16 bee5 00:34:28 -!- whoppix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:34:45 also 00:35:15 will #haskellers kill me if I ask stupid questions in there :/ 00:38:17 -!- whoppix has joined. 00:40:08 also, fuck languages that require you to make source files to define things 00:40:09 no 00:40:17 e.g. prolog, haskell 00:40:20 let a = 5 00:40:46 cf: stupid questions[ 00:40:48 :P 00:41:15 http://pastebin.ca/1331209 00:42:48 oklopol: also, by saying that, you probably sped up my learning of haskell by a large factor 00:43:01 comex: np 01:48:50 -!- radioactivity has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:50:08 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:06:37 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 02:13:53 -!- whoppix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 02:15:18 -!- whoppix has joined. 02:20:16 -!- whoppix has quit ("Verlassend"). 02:25:07 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:29:25 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:11:15 -!- icefox has quit. 03:18:58 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:21:06 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 03:27:02 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:37:51 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:10:17 -!- DarkPants has joined. 05:23:14 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:37:02 -!- DarkPants has changed nick to GreaseMonkey. 07:17:09 -!- olsner has joined. 07:46:34 (comex : btw, usually you don't *have*to* make a source file for defining predicates in prolog ..) 07:47:33 ?- [user]. 07:47:43 |: foo(X) :- bar(X). 07:47:54 |: baz(17). 07:48:00 |: ^D 07:48:40 ?- assertz(( bar(Y) :- baz(Z),Y is Z + 25 )). 07:48:52 ?- foo(N). 07:48:57 N = 42 ; 07:48:58 NO 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:21:40 -!- ktne has joined. 08:21:59 hello 08:22:08 when is ehird coming here usually? 08:34:09 -!- kwufo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:06:37 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:13:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 09:34:02 -!- kwufo has joined. 09:57:55 -!- kwufo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:59:40 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 10:00:25 ktne, European afternoon I think 10:00:59 West Europe that is (he lives in UK) 10:10:21 -!- upyr[ema` has joined. 10:10:21 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:20:11 AnMaster: thanks 11:00:21 -!- kwufo has joined. 11:49:07 -!- jix has joined. 12:37:47 -!- kwufo has quit ("Leaving."). 12:48:56 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 12:54:16 -!- kwufo has joined. 13:06:48 -!- kwufo1 has joined. 13:09:17 -!- kwufo has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:11:53 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:52:22 -!- icefox has joined. 15:08:51 ktne: I'm here 15:17:58 hi ehird 15:18:30 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:18:51 ehird: do you happen to know an accessible paper on CPS transformation? 15:19:25 Nope... It's always seemed quite simple to me... ktne: Look at the examples on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation-passing_style? The transformation is really quite simple 15:20:03 well i just thinking that maybe there is a catch and ad-hoc methods wouldn't work 15:20:12 Not as far as I know :-) 15:20:16 :) 15:34:27 if we allow "non-repetitive infinite initial conditions" i'm pretty sure that makes SMETANA turing-complete as well it would be a very simple structure, it has a "head" and then a "tail" consisting of identical pieces of code with different numbers (trivially generated by any process) 15:34:34 ais523 logreader: thoughts? 15:36:54 ehird: is CPS transformation of sequencial code any different? 15:37:04 ktne: Nope 15:37:06 because it looks like all examples are functional 15:37:18 ok 15:37:22 ktne: a; b 15:37:23 would just be 15:37:28 (a (lambda (_) b)) 15:37:32 right 15:37:36 (because you're discarding the result) 15:38:04 ok, brb 16:11:16 wth 16:11:21 google AI? 16:11:29 googled for: canon eos 5d megapixels 16:11:33 got this: 16:11:37 Canon EOS 5D — Megapixels: 12.8Mp 16:11:37 According to http://www.dcmag.co.uk/Canon_EOS_5D.YcxcOYJoY7WsLA.html 16:11:48 scarily smart... 16:12:06 screen scraping is hard 16:12:08 let's go shopping 16:12:22 ehird, ? 16:19:30 off topic: best case design for PCI slots ever (no screws needed for anything in this case!): http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/photos/phoenix/phoenix_1116.jpg It's an old dell case (old as in "Designed for Windows 98" sticker) 16:20:14 AnMaster: quite neat 16:20:53 yeah there are more images of it in the same directory in case you want to see how it is opened (like a book) 16:21:00 http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/photos/phoenix/phoenix_1110.jpg 16:22:03 ktne, compared to my desktop which needs like 15 screws to open and is a mess of cables inside... this case is heaven. 16:22:55 * ehird looks at iMac 16:23:04 :) 16:23:07 Not many cables here. :P 16:23:43 ehird, well true, but as far as I remember macs (apart from mac pro) are kind of hard to get inside and replace parts), apart from ram 16:23:53 Well, yeah. 16:23:56 ram tends to be easy to reach on them, oh and airport card on older ones 16:24:04 The RAM is in a special slot at the bottom. 16:24:10 ah right 16:24:19 on my old ibook it was under the keyboard 16:24:19 You just put it on the side, take out the screws, and the ram slots are there on the bottom 16:24:38 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:24:40 just pull some plastic things, flip it back 16:24:50 I actually have one more cable than is strictly necessary - I could use wifi instead of ethernet - but that'd be slow. 16:24:56 (The only other cable coming out is a power cord.) 16:25:04 ehird, however, an imac wouldn't allow me to replace the cd drive as easily as this dell 16:25:04 (I don't think we've quite got wireless electricity) 16:25:05 meh, you should use wireless power too 16:25:11 ais523: Beat you to it. 16:25:20 AnMaster: True, but I don't need to replace the CD drive. :P 16:25:28 I just pulled the old drive out (old cd reader) and replaced it with a slightly less old cd burner 16:25:29 :) 16:25:41 true, colour doesn't match any more 16:25:52 the old one had a black tray 16:26:01 Mine's a DVD burner, so there's not really much upgrading I could do to it. 16:26:10 ais523, btw for reference: http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/photos/phoenix/phoenix_1116.jpg http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/photos/phoenix/phoenix_1110.jpg 16:26:11 Unless I wanted blu-ray or something. Yech. 16:26:13 best case ever 16:26:14 :) 16:26:26 It looks like a Transformer. 16:26:27 ehird, well true, my case was way older 16:26:35 what? my case or your case? 16:26:36 Optimus Mersenne Prime 16:26:38 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:26:39 AnMaster: yours 16:26:42 right 16:26:56 actually, I think it is "Optiplex" not "Optimus" 16:27:03 the model 16:27:15 I hope that was, like, intentional. 16:27:19 ehird, yes 16:27:20 You do realise what I was referencing? 16:27:22 Phew. 16:27:26 ehird, and no 16:27:29 ... 16:27:33 Transformers. Google it. 16:27:39 I heard of it 16:28:02 but I haven't heard of "Optimus Mersenne Prime", though I know what a Mersenne Prime is 16:28:14 Google Optimus Prime. 16:28:17 Results 1 - 1 of 1 for "Optimus Mersenne Prime". (0.38 seconds) 16:28:20 :D 16:28:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Prime 16:28:49 :D 16:32:07 ok 16:32:56 * AnMaster pokes ais523 16:33:06 you haven't asked him a question 16:33:09 what do you expect as a response? 16:33:17 ehird, "ouch" or "what?" 16:33:25 i see. 16:33:29 I mean when you poke someone 16:33:31 well, I could just not respond 16:33:41 that was what I was expecting. 16:33:44 personally, I think it's simplest to nickping someone in the same line as you ask the question in 16:33:51 i do that 16:33:53 except 16:33:55 when I'm imitating 16:33:56 comex 16:34:02 ais523, http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/photos/phoenix/phoenix_1116.jpg http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/photos/phoenix/phoenix_1110.jpg <-- what do you think of that case design 16:34:25 ah yes, ais523 the foremost expert on case design 16:34:38 ais523: read the logs? i asked a question to do with the 2,3 machine, quoting lament 16:34:58 ehird, um, did I claim he was an expert? 16:35:00 case design never was my strong point, but I've sometimes had to do it because the person who was meant to be doing it didn't 16:35:09 ais523, hah 16:35:16 AnMaster: you seem a bit obsessed with the case s'all 16:35:33 ehird, anyone would be after looking inside the mess that is my desktop 16:35:46 Unlikely, my old desktop is almost certainly worse. 16:35:50 It computed more with dust than a CPU. 16:35:58 AnMaster: I'm not sure if I have much of an opinion on that 16:36:05 it looks like a normal computer case to me... 16:36:09 ehird, I mean it is like having to use TECO and then suddenly trying modern kate or whatever 16:36:36 ais523, I just like that you don't need any screws at all in it 16:36:41 AnMaster: Kate isn't even Turing-complete! 16:36:49 Editor analogies: the new car analogies. 16:36:50 actually, maybe it is, but not as obviously as TECO 16:36:52 we had proving there are infinite mersenne primes as an exercise on our discrete math course 16:36:54 ais523, well true, but it is easier to use 16:37:03 it was about text editor 16:37:07 not programming language 16:37:13 not my fault teco is both 16:37:14 :P 16:37:26 I dunno, I'd prefer TECO to Kate, probably. 16:37:40 ehird: have you ever tried Kate? 16:37:44 ehird, ok what about TECO vs. 16:37:45 Yep. 16:37:49 Used it when I used KDE. 16:37:54 With TECO I can build a glob of macros to make it bearable (like rms did :P). 16:37:55 KDE3 Kate or KDE4 Kate? 16:38:00 Whereas Kate is just... limited. 16:38:00 ehird, hah 16:38:02 It doesn't do much. 16:38:05 ais523: KDE3. 16:38:14 strange, I rather liked that one 16:38:17 ais523, I haven't used KDE4 yet so I was comparing with KDE3 16:38:31 Kate isn't _bad_ 16:38:34 AnMaster: neither KDE4.0 nor KDE4.1 is finished 16:38:38 I haven't tried 4.2 16:38:38 It just doesn't do much in the way of advanced editing. 16:38:42 It's not efficient. 16:38:43 anyway what about teco vs. 16:38:43 but the unfinishedness in .0 and .1 really shows 16:38:47 TECO is obscure and horrid, but could be efficient. 16:38:53 teco vs. haskell? 16:39:12 famously, Emacs was originally written in TECO 16:39:16 ehird knows that already 16:39:19 ais523: I mentioned that 16:39:19 ais523, I know 16:39:19 :P 16:39:21 but I'm not sure if everyone here does 16:39:22 AnMaster: Haskell, obviously. And for text editor, well, I like TextMate but I use emacs more, since it does Haskell better. 16:39:26 no comment on globally unsolved math as an exercise? you ppl are seriously weird. 16:39:27 16:38 With TECO I can build a glob of macros to make it bearable (like rms did :P). 16:39:32 oklopol: :D 16:39:35 oklopol: did you solve it 16:39:49 ehird: in fact i did not! 16:39:53 :< 16:39:55 Did you lose marks 16:39:59 :D 16:40:23 well it wasn't actually one of the questions, more like for extra points 16:40:33 i was the only one who didn't get it 16:40:36 :'( 16:40:38 I'd just make the whole goddamn paper all unsolved shit 16:40:45 they're bound to get it eventually 16:40:50 haha 16:40:52 and I'll be famous 16:40:53 WOOP 16:41:02 yeah right. if there's anything at all complex, i'm the only one who solves it 16:41:05 pretty much for all courses 16:41:13 oklopol what is 2+2 16:41:38 4 16:42:03 i like j, it's replacing python as my calculator already 16:42:14 of course, it's extremely annoying as a calculator 16:42:16 :P 16:42:48 :D 16:42:57 j is pretty awesome but I have ideaaaaas to make it better 16:43:06 in j can you define adverbssss 16:43:59 oklopol: why is it annoying as a calculator 16:44:16 i mean math that was invented a million years ago is pretty much optimized. that includes the precedences of +/*/^, they are perfect. 16:44:40 but 16:44:45 of course the number representation was invented a million years ago, and i fucking hate it 16:44:49 oklopol: I guess % for division is annoying 16:44:53 but stillll 16:44:56 ehird: not at all 16:45:05 you should be able to use the unicode char 16:45:34 that's simple substitution, the precedence thing somehow feels like i'm structuring the whole calculation wrong (probably because it's more verbose) 16:45:35 um 16:45:40 why not / for division? 16:45:46 AnMaster: it's fold 16:45:55 learn j then you'll know :P 16:46:09 oh right.... array programming languages tend to run out symbols pretty quickly 16:46:18 no, it's not running out 16:46:21 AnMaster: / and \ are fold and umm what's it called 16:46:22 it's giving priority to some things 16:46:26 also, it doesn't actually use many symbols 16:46:27 oh wait, that is perl 16:46:45 you just spout out meaningless unfunniness like something that spouts out a lot, don't you. 16:46:50 and iirc php? (or they wouldn't have used \ for namespace) 16:47:03 no, php devs just can't write a parser. 16:47:06 true 16:47:14 oklopol: you should be able to do this: 16:47:15 1 16:47:17 - 16:47:19 0 16:47:21 in j 16:47:29 heh. 16:47:34 i would hate that so much 16:47:40 how about 16:47:45 second 16:47:46 ehird, but if they can't handle . or :: for namespace they can't handle the difference between = and == either, yet they have = == and === 16:47:55 so yeah "can't write a parser" I guess is correct 16:48:48 oklopol: ¹∕₀ 16:48:51 how about: 16:48:51 set my variable to one divided by five 16:48:53 that / is actually a division slash. 16:48:54 actually i find the division stuff not so nice in math, often i actually try to keep my numbers integral just so i don't have to start using twice the height. 16:48:55 :D 16:48:58 wait that would be applescript... 16:49:29 ehird: sorry, i cannot read that. 16:49:31 also no one that has seen applescript should be able to like apple... 16:49:41 oklopol, charset and/or font fail 16:49:44 I could see it 16:49:46 applescript's semantics are useful. the syntax is stupid, but who the fuck cares. 16:49:51 AnMaster: no shit 16:49:56 oklopol: it's superscript 1, division slash, subscript 0 16:50:02 haha 16:50:24 ehird, oh? no "combining" char+ 16:50:26 ? 16:50:27 no 16:50:32 boring 16:50:38 unfortunately, none of those symbols are valdi j 16:50:42 so you can't assign them 16:50:44 to make them work 16:51:04 I wonder why there's no esolang with support for such signs 16:51:06 I mean, why not? 16:51:07 ehird, hm 16:51:10 FireFly: unikitten 16:51:13 Hm 16:51:21 note: unpublished 16:51:28 ehird, who made it+ 16:51:28 ? 16:51:34 me. 16:51:38 * AnMaster hates + and ? on same key 16:51:42 unikitten sounds so cute i wanna hug it. 16:51:49 oklopol: i know. 16:51:49 -!- DH_ has joined. 16:51:49 ._. 16:51:53 it's like el cuto. 16:51:56 kitten. uni. 16:51:57 unigarfield 16:52:00 no. 16:52:02 unikitten. 16:52:18 it must support ÷ and ×, right? 16:52:38 ehird, I think kitten == cute is silly. I mean they grow up cats. Is an old tomcat "cute"? 16:52:41 FireFly: sure, but also the division slash 16:52:48 but only if you use super/subscripts 16:52:51 'kay 16:52:57 so I just replace every mention of "kitten" in a "cute" context on irc with "garfield" 16:53:04 AnMaster: butterflies aren't pretty because they used to be caterpillars 16:53:04 duh. 16:53:05 it tends to work 16:53:12 garfield isn't a kitten 16:53:15 he's a fucking cartoon cat 16:53:18 ehird, also kittens aren't cute IMO 16:53:19 kitten != cat, cartoon != real 16:53:21 true 16:53:28 ehird, I know, but why make sense? 16:53:35 kittens are very cute 16:53:35 so just stop being annoying and saying GARFIELD GARFIELD GARFIELD GARFIELD GARFIELD GARFIELD GARFIELD GARFIELD GARFIELD GARFIELD GARFIELD all the time 16:53:40 it's really irritating 16:54:10 women aren't cute cuz some day they die anyway and worms eat their face 16:54:28 o 16:54:28 ehird, also kittens -> allergy medicine 16:54:29 for me 16:54:50 yeah well just because you can't appreciate kittens doesn't mean you have to ruin it in a hissy fit for us 16:55:08 yeah us kitten lovers are very sensitive about our love fo kittens 16:55:11 *for 16:55:20 ehird, just because you are so sensitive means you have to complain everytime someone disagrees with you 16:55:42 err, saying garfield and whining whenever someone says kitten is annoying. that's not the same as saying "i don't find kittens cute", once. 16:56:01 please learn the difference between stating your opinion and whining about your opinion constantly whenever it comes up. 16:56:04 one is not annoying, the other is 16:56:25 ehird, last time I believe was before FireFly joined for example 16:56:35 so it is about informing any new people 16:56:43 some collateral damage may be involved 16:56:46 i'm really amused you think they care. 16:56:58 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:57:10 ehird, of course. I know I'm the center of the universe.~ 16:57:40 * oklopol cares :< 16:59:34 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVtxEA7AEHg 16:59:41 -!- DH_ has quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"). 17:00:04 oklopol: i still haven't figured out how to do that thing in j :< 17:01:36 wudding 17:01:38 oh 17:01:52 the 17:02:02 err actually i do not remember 17:02:23 "here is a list, make all unique length-2 lists with picks from this list, then map them all as the left argument to this op" 17:02:35 the solution you gave was like 20 characters longer than the APL to do that :< 17:06:47 hm is there anything array programming languages are bad at? 17:07:41 ehird, ? 17:07:48 not really. 17:07:56 well. 17:07:59 loops. 17:08:06 so writing an irc bot in apl? 17:08:16 possible, yes. 17:08:30 yes of course it is possible, as long as you have stdin/stdout 17:08:38 or something similiar 17:08:43 similar* 17:09:16 ehird, but would it be something it was "good" at, or just "not bad" at? 17:09:28 actually it would need a main loop anywya 17:09:31 anyway* 17:09:32 no it wouldn't 17:09:35 you'd map over the input lines 17:09:47 oh right. 17:09:49 you never, ever _need_ to loop in array programming languages 17:09:52 hm 17:10:01 It'd be fine, anyway. Not much chance to excersize its paradigm, but IRC bots are inherently uninteresting anyway. 17:10:09 well true 17:10:59 ehird, what about text processing? In sed-style 17:11:09 what are you talking about 17:12:18 I mean how easy would it be to write something like: /^foo: /s/abc([0-9][0-9]*)/def\1ghj/;/quux/d 17:12:21 in apl 17:12:30 umm, that's highly irrelevant to the programming environment 17:12:33 true 17:12:37 that's just trivial boring library stuff that nobody cares about 17:12:42 ehird, but I mean a program that performed the same task 17:12:45 as that sed line 17:12:45 ... 17:12:52 it's nothing to do with the paradigm 17:12:54 trivial boring library stuff that nobody cares about 17:12:55 true 17:13:20 ehird, actually not sure how you mean? APL has a "sed" library? 17:13:24 sigh 17:14:13 oh well, forget it then, if you aren't going to make any sense. 17:14:15 oklopol: J lies :< 17:14:16 1%0 17:14:16 _ 17:14:17 0*_ 17:14:18 i think it's somewhat relevant :| slicin n dicin. 17:14:20 0 17:14:22 17:14:55 ehird: both are perfectly reasonable 17:15:05 oklopol: not together 17:15:06 that's not consistent 17:15:14 ah 17:15:24 x*(y/x)=y is a pretty good law :P 17:15:44 clearly n*_ should look at the last division you did 17:15:47 to see what it should be 17:15:53 hah 17:16:22 ".'''a''' 17:16:23 a 17:16:23 17:16:26 i love sql quoting 17:17:02 hmm i wonder how to get permutations in j 17:17:40 1 2 3 (([,]) (0: { [) 3)"0/ 4 5 6 <<< why no give 3 3 $ 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 3 :| 17:18:01 i dunno lol 17:18:05 :) 17:18:09 #jsoftware 17:20:52 -!- kwufo1 has quit ("Leaving."). 17:21:44 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 17:41:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alexander_horned_sphere.png <<< this thing here, it's perfection 17:43:52 dude is that recursive 17:43:53 awesome 17:44:09 it is fairly awesome. 17:45:43 oklopol: more perfect: http://www.ultrafractal.com/showcase/jos/alexanders-horn.html 17:59:22 -!- kwufo has joined. 18:01:21 * ehird considers writing logic-checker-thingy 18:01:40 logic checker? 18:01:49 yep 18:02:03 you mean something like a proof validator? 18:02:07 kind of 18:02:14 i see 18:02:40 well, you need to specify the initial state of a proof 18:02:43 and all valid transitions 18:02:47 mm 18:02:49 and a finishing condition 18:02:56 and then you go through the list of transitions 18:03:01 yes 18:03:02 checking to see if each one of them is valid 18:03:07 i know :) 18:03:11 until you end the proof 18:03:34 well i was just doing a bit of loud brainstorming here :) 18:04:10 my main aim is to be sort of both a blend of prolog and something to do things like check soundness of logic, e.g. to detect logical fallacies 18:04:19 i see 18:04:34 wouldn't be prolog usable for that? 18:05:30 yeah, to adegree 18:05:42 I'm just thinking of things like: 18:05:42 ? ((P => Q) ^ Q) => P 18:05:43 False 18:05:55 well you need some sort of parametrization too 18:06:25 yes 18:40:47 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:48:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:50:00 But it's just a random name for discussion of a variety of topics including AI, cake, #zot, and the topics applicable in #zot. 18:50:15 i assume the second topic is not entirely accurate. 18:50:27 Perhaps it was a lie. 18:50:46 you lie once, you'll never be trusted again. 18:51:08 lament: that's an interesting lie 18:53:00 oum, no, i thought it was about esoteric.. themes.. whats esoteric programming languages? 18:53:18 since the channel is rarely on topic, this would not be that off topic 18:54:04 so, did radioactivity become an esoprogrammer? 18:54:56 radioactivity: is jeje laughter? 18:55:11 and here i thought for a moment it was a phonetic spelling of yeah, yeah 18:55:35 of course in spanish it _would_ be a phonetic spelling of heh, heh 18:57:53 heh: you're boring 18:57:59 that's funnier out of context 19:02:31 will #haskellers kill me if I ask stupid questions in there :/ 19:02:54 yes. 19:03:07 as i recall, no, in fact they will ban anyone who mocks you instead. they have a _strict_ newbie-friendly policy. 19:03:22 what if newbies mock each other? 19:03:26 of course it may have changed, but i doubt it. 19:03:35 well trolls are banned too 19:03:39 it's a ridiculously newbie-friendly channel- 19:03:46 except for when you ask a question and nobody answers 19:03:48 ever 19:03:52 because they're all stupid 19:03:56 i hate them 19:04:17 lament: this the same #haskell i used to frequent? 19:04:41 oerjan: you don't go there anymore? 19:04:42 lament is so great :D 19:04:49 otoh i mostly answered questions rather than asking them 19:04:51 it's too floody for him 19:04:55 oh 19:05:09 no that was not the reason, so i'm still confident 19:05:12 * oklopol wait 19:05:13 s 19:06:07 i don't have the energy for that much abstract thinking any more 19:07:53 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 19:08:02 oerjan: so what do you do in your spare time? 19:08:31 he does this! 19:08:55 well that is true :D 19:09:06 \\o \o/ o// \o/ _o_ \o/ 19:10:00 webcomics, reddit, some news sources... 19:10:11 oklopol, are you a cheerleader now? 19:10:24 He sure looks good in a skirt 19:10:29 he would, i bet 19:10:31 lol 19:10:46 oerjan: you're boring, just like i am :( 19:10:57 lament: true, true 19:11:00 hard to say, haven't tried. 19:11:02 reddit is horrible though 19:11:17 would you consider wearing a skirt, oklopol? 19:11:18 lament: but you play jazz, that's kinda cool! 19:11:20 oh wait 19:11:22 you don't! 19:11:27 :DDDDDDDDDDDDD 19:11:30 it was nice when it was mostly news about haskell 19:11:30 lament: not if you love pun threads :D 19:11:45 and i suppose i was happy when banana scheme was on it 19:11:57 but these days it's almost slashdot 19:11:58 lament: please be insulted. 19:12:09 lament, do you read hn.yc? 19:12:15 i think haskell has its own subreddit now 19:12:21 oklopol: i do play jazz, if you can call that jazz, if you can call that play. 19:12:21 hacker news is shit 19:12:27 psygnisfive: never heard of it 19:12:27 paul graham circlejerk 24/7 19:12:37 eh. i just ignore the pg stuff. 19:12:40 ohhh 19:12:41 lament: news.ycombinator.com 19:12:42 yc 19:12:45 as in pg 19:12:46 i see 19:12:51 lament: reddit.com/r/haskell 19:12:54 dont you mean "ic"? 19:12:55 :D 19:12:56 lament: well right, i meant for a living, but i guess when it comes to not being boring that matters not. 19:13:02 yc as i pg. ic. 19:13:07 in* 19:13:16 nothing but two letter words! :D 19:13:17 ehird: the haskell reddit is just a clone of planet haskell, which i read 19:13:23 yc as in pg ic! :D :D :D 19:13:34 psygnisfive: is news.ycombinator.com any good? 19:13:35 psygnisfive: next you will learn words of >2 letters. 19:13:38 lament: nope. 19:13:40 i'm wary of pg-related stuff 19:13:43 i think its ok. 19:13:54 i mean, there is a disproportionate amount of pg whoring 19:13:56 just looking at the headers 19:14:00 it's ugly, slow to load, and it's pretty much reddit, except everyone circlejerks instead of flaming 19:14:02 ehird: er, ok 19:14:03 "How did we geeks become experts on macroeconomics"? 19:14:03 but its always labeled as being pg stuff 19:14:06 or you can tell by the url 19:14:13 so its easy to be attentive of 19:14:14 "Yahoo Should Buy Microsoft" 19:14:20 "Careers and Marriage" 19:14:25 GOOD PROGRAMMERS AREN'T LAZY 19:14:27 ehird, i find that reddit contains a lot of non-techy stuff 19:14:32 more than yc 19:14:33 psygnisfive: /r/programming 19:14:37 lament: how to become a better programmer 19:14:37 point. 19:14:37 IN 19:14:38 6 19:14:40 MINUTES 19:14:45 its true! 19:14:47 6 minutes! 19:14:53 "New Puzzle Challenges Math Skills" 19:15:07 You've got 6 minutes, right? 19:15:08 Go for it! 19:15:09 Use a bigger font size. 19:15:10 This is ridiculously easy -- but it works. 19:15:12 Go to your favourite IDE, and crank the font-size up. I switched from 10pt to 14 pt. The difference is that a lot less code fits on the screen at once. 19:15:16 The effect is: you're forced to write shorter methods. And that's a Good Thing. 19:15:17 (Scott Hanselman recommends that one) 19:15:19 "Recruiting Drops At Business Schools" 19:15:20 my god. 19:15:22 how retarded. 19:15:24 Make hard-coded strings look ugly. 19:15:26 I learnt this from Joe Cooney. 19:15:28 Go to your favourite IDE, and set it so that literal strings stand right out -- for example a yellow background with a red font. Make 'em ugly. Damn ugly. This will encourage you to perform less hard coding, and to notice when you are embedding strings in your text. 19:15:31 "Why aren't developers interested in Ada?" 19:15:32 ......................... 19:15:50 "Micropayments, Reimagined" 19:15:53 i don't want to read this :( 19:16:52 * psygnisfive sneezes 19:17:39 * oerjan directs his virus scanner to psygnisfive 19:18:01 *at 19:18:03 * psygnisfive needs antivirus despite being a mac 19:18:04 :( 19:18:21 bigger font size? yeah sure the gain from not *accidentally* shorter methods outweighs not seeing as great a proportion of your code. 19:18:23 you're using a mac? that's gay 19:18:38 lol 19:18:41 i'm also gay so it fits. 19:18:43 oklopol: you accidentally all your methods? 19:18:43 lament: that's right, gaybag. 19:18:48 ehirds using a mac but he's a girl so. 19:18:53 I need antivirus despite using Linux, the terms of service of the wireless here says so 19:18:54 lament is also using a mac, psygnisfive. 19:18:56 oerjan: yes, i use small fonts. 19:19:01 yes but lament owns the channel. 19:19:08 so i can't be gay 19:19:10 not that it ever finds anything 19:19:11 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:19:14 gay people aren't allowed to run channels 19:19:17 exactly. you can only be homosexual. 19:19:20 also it's not me, it's calamari 19:19:27 shut up, thats ot the point 19:19:54 also starting today, i'm using a mac at work! wooo! 19:20:07 a friend just changed jobs and is not longer using a mac at work. :( 19:20:11 calamari with his tentacles, now that is perverse 19:20:20 *hot 19:21:06 i decided i probably want to code in haskell for a living 19:22:07 if we allow "non-repetitive infinite initial conditions" i'm pretty sure that makes SMETANA turing-complete as well it would be a very simple structure, it has a "head" and then a "tail" consisting of identical pieces of code with different numbers (trivially generated by any process) 19:22:37 yeah lament was saying that if 2,3=tc smetana=tc 19:22:40 i already described such a setup on the old esoteric mailing list 19:22:51 yes 19:22:52 you mentioned. 19:22:54 at the time. 19:23:00 oh 19:23:26 somehow people are fine with infinite initial setup for automatons, but not for programs 19:23:32 it's like racism 19:23:38 s/automatons/automata 19:24:12 the thing is you need a program to describe the infinite setup... 19:24:24 or some math 19:24:27 ais523: 19:24:40 oerjan: same with automata 19:24:55 in fact 19:25:06 even "infitely big empty field" is an infinite setup 19:25:16 true 19:26:08 but programs _started_ as the idea of a finite algorithm description 19:26:32 yeah 19:26:39 and you can't really have a finite automaton setup 19:26:45 since it's not defined what happens at the edges 19:27:11 you people think you're so tough. 19:27:33 actually i'm kind of squishy, mostly 19:27:55 *dough 19:28:45 ehird: is CPS transformation of sequencial code any different? 19:29:25 you should take a look at raph levien's IO language (_not_ the OO one) 19:29:37 nah 19:29:41 it's not very interesting :P 19:30:02 * oerjan swats ehird -----### 19:31:05 it shows how to make a syntax that _looks_ sequential, but is really CPS 19:31:30 no 19:31:37 the best way is to CPS-transform regular code 19:32:48 ehird: i think we'll have to suspend your esoteric license now 19:33:12 ktne isn't trying to make an esolang, which he's said several times. I don't know why he asks here, but there you go. 19:33:27 i thought sequential code was already CPS 19:33:29 trivially 19:33:40 he's doing sequential & functional 19:34:03 sounds like monads 19:34:10 no 19:34:17 non-pure functional 19:34:26 so? 19:34:35 monads don't have to be pure 19:34:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concon :) 19:35:08 lament: he's basically making something like scheme but more imperativer 19:35:22 sounds boring 19:35:38 lament: he's also trying to get it as fast as C. 19:39:26 have you guys seen these "Life printers"? 19:39:50 yes. 19:39:57 they're neat :o 19:40:03 they seem to be a recent phenomena 19:40:13 i wonder what happened 19:40:18 a guy coded a program. 19:40:20 http://golly.sourceforge.net/ticker.gif 19:40:21 that made them. 19:40:22 golly! 19:40:26 thhat's old. 19:40:27 really? whereabouts? 19:40:29 http://tlrobinson.net/blog/2009/02/07/game-of-life-generator/ 19:40:29 and who did it? 19:40:34 huh. 19:40:35 :D 19:40:37 Awesome 19:40:45 what a crazy guy 19:40:49 wow wow 19:41:00 t'was on /r/programming 19:41:14 s'where i found golly. 19:41:54 haha, someone's comment 19:41:56 "just in time for Valentine's day, thanks :)" 19:42:16 thats pretty impressive that you can code an abstraction for this 19:42:32 not really/ 19:42:34 it looks remarkably like a physical object too 19:42:38 Life is TC and it's just a dot matrix printer :P 19:42:47 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:42:52 i mean, it's just gliders. 19:42:53 sure but like 19:42:59 you just send out a shitload of gliders in a pattern 19:43:02 that is not particularly difficult 19:43:04 the complexity of designing this is more the impressive part 19:43:07 someone make a scanner :D 19:43:13 hehe 19:43:26 also, these gliders seem to be moving horizontally not diagonally 19:43:26 yes we'll make the scanner right after we make the impenetrable wall 19:43:26 that WOULD be impressive 19:43:31 say, a copier 19:43:38 stuff crashes into it 19:43:40 and it prints it out 19:43:42 brb 19:44:05 spaceships, not gliders 19:44:32 oic 19:44:33 i assume they're http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Game_of_life_animated_LWSS.gif 19:44:47 yeah 19:44:51 im still impressed. 19:44:55 its pretty need 19:45:05 and the SCALE of the whole thing is ridiculous 19:45:12 i mean, look at the size of the landscape, its enormous! 19:45:13 not really :| 19:45:15 I'm Life-jaded. 19:45:21 psygnisfive: you've seen the turing machine, right? 19:45:27 yeah 19:45:31 yeah, that one is absurd 19:45:32 once you see that and the unit cell 19:45:34 it's just boring 19:45:41 the unit cell? 19:45:47 oh ho 19:45:53 psygnisfive: it's a game of life emulator in gol 19:45:58 ah. 19:46:02 http://www.radicaleye.com/lifepage/patterns/unitcell/ucdesc.html 19:46:38 eigenratio is 5760 19:46:57 game of life is at once really pretty and really horrendous 19:47:17 i dont follow what a unit cell is by that definition x.x 19:47:27 psygnisfive: it's a cell in the game of life, duh 19:47:41 which tells me nothing :P 19:47:43 you put a bunch of them in a grid and you got the game of life 19:47:53 psygnisfive: basically 19:47:58 it acts as one cell 19:47:59 that is 19:48:03 oh i see 19:48:04 you could arrange multiple unit cells into a glider 19:48:08 and they would turn off and on etc 19:48:14 it's a game of life simulator _in_ game of lif 19:48:15 e 19:48:17 simulates one cell 19:48:35 its a Life construct that simulates an individual cell of Life 19:48:41 yep 19:48:43 that makes sense. 19:48:43 How can it simulate only one cell? 19:48:53 magic, slereah 19:48:54 Slereah2: you put them next to each other 19:48:58 to simulate multiple cells 19:48:58 o 19:49:00 Awesome. 19:49:14 But... How are the edge cells determined? 19:49:20 Do they assume the border is empty? 19:49:29 well 19:49:32 it depends what grid you run it on 19:49:34 if infinite, infinite 19:49:39 if limited and wrapping ,limited and wrapping 19:49:39 etc 19:50:05 Slereah2: edge behaviour is undefined in game of life 19:50:12 yeah the edgeness is a property of the universe you run life in, not the game of life itself 19:50:13 so you need either an infinite or a wrapping setup 19:50:15 I mean, how do they know that the next cell is full or not? 19:50:22 Do they send little spaceships if fullN 19:50:24 ? 19:50:25 Slereah2: if it's full, a glider arrives from it 19:50:30 'kay 19:50:38 So it's assumed empty at the edge, i guess 19:50:45 there are no edges! 19:50:54 this is pretty cool, i must say. 19:51:11 lament : Only if you use a fancy infinite computer 19:51:18 But we work for a living you know! 19:51:25 Slereah2: the behaviour of a cell at the edge of a game of life field is undefined. 19:51:40 (as far as i understand the rules) 19:51:41 Yes, but that interpreter is only one cell 19:51:46 no, that's only one cell 19:51:56 it's not an interpreter 19:51:59 So it's not the game of life itself, unless you stack an infinity of it 19:52:03 yes 19:52:10 no, it is 19:52:13 as with any other automaton, you need infinite initial setup 19:52:16 yeah 19:52:21 generally, you have finite on cells 19:52:22 Yes. 19:52:25 So why are you arguing. 19:52:28 i dunno 19:52:29 :D 19:52:51 Slereah2: GoL host space = unit cell space 19:53:00 i.e., you can simulate it just putting unit cells on an empty field 19:53:50 Idea : MAKE A UNIT CELL MADE OF UNIT CELL 19:53:51 :D 19:53:59 Bam, computer crash 19:54:00 trivial. A lot of copy-pasting. 19:54:04 Yes 19:54:13 Wait 19:54:21 How do you decide the initial state of the cell? 19:54:25 what 19:54:29 same way you do with GoL normally 19:54:31 durr 19:54:34 slereah dont be stupid 19:54:41 i think it depends on whether there's a glider between the long boats? 19:54:52 whoa now 19:54:54 Totally like normal GOL, psygnisfive 19:54:56 DURRRRRRR 19:55:00 DQN DQN 19:55:14 slereah, obviously theres something that denotes unitcell state 19:55:32 you decide initial state by just setting that something just like you do with normal GoL 19:55:46 "deciding" is the same. its a decision. that you the person makes. 19:55:58 Slereah2: Idea : MAKE AN INFINITE RECURSION OF UNIT CELLS 19:56:03 (also trivial, really) 19:56:07 O_O 19:56:11 hey thats a fractal! 19:56:14 a fractal computer! 19:56:22 psygnisfive : AND I WAS ASKING WHAT THAT SOMETHING IS, DQN DQN 19:56:27 DERP DERP 19:56:31 HURR DURR 19:56:32 > fix life 19:56:34 stop being vlad 19:56:44 Stop being you 19:56:50 SORRY 19:56:54 what would be nice is an O(grid size) algorithm for going an arbitrary amount of steps forward in gol 19:57:52 i think such a thing has been proven to be mathematically impossible. or atleast a mathematical abstraction of the behavior of CAs is impossible to some degree 19:57:56 wait, in that unit cell setup do you need to use unit cells to simulate off cells too, or can you just put empty space there? 19:57:58 and i think that's what would be necessary 19:58:03 empty space 19:58:05 is the idea, I think 19:58:10 i dont think so.. 19:58:10 psygnisfive: aww 19:58:18 i think you'd need unit cells for off cells 19:58:19 if it sends gliders it might be a bit hard 19:58:27 because if you didnt have unit cells there too, they couldnt turn on 19:58:28 no 19:58:37 i think it copies itself 19:58:43 well you _can_ build things with gliders 19:58:47 ah well then 19:59:59 i think you could simulate a finite field with a finite field of unit cells 20:00:22 any gliders at the edges would just fly off to infinity 20:00:30 yes 20:03:05 hm in http://www.radicaleye.com/lifepage/patterns/unitcell/ucdesc.html it seems that the cell has two states, so not empty space 20:03:25 where's the two states 20:04:01 i mean from the event list at the end 20:04:06 ah 20:04:31 Someone should make a GoLfile -> GoLfile in Unitcells converter 20:05:25 trivial 20:06:11 -!- olsner has joined. 20:06:16 Yep, but it'd be easier than copy-pasting the patterns 20:06:52 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 20:07:19 HOLY FUCK 20:07:24 I JUST MADE A SIERPINSKI TRIANGLE IN LIFE 20:07:28 !!!!!!!!! 20:07:33 Without intending to!! 20:07:57 pics or it didn't happen 20:07:59 I just drew a really long line and wow. 20:08:00 * oerjan for a moment thought ehird was still being sarcastic 20:08:01 lament: uploading 20:08:05 Um 20:08:24 wait 20:08:27 why would I be sarcastic 20:08:30 do I look like a foo 20:08:30 l 20:08:36 yes. 20:08:38 it's sort of your natural state :D 20:08:43 :< 20:08:47 With some ruleset, it's what one single cell being on generates.. It comes with Golly 20:08:54 but fools are cute, dont worry. <3 20:08:55 well 20:08:56 http://xs136.xs.to/xs136/09071/picture_1324.png 20:08:57 http://xs136.xs.to/xs136/09071/picture_1324.png 20:09:05 I just drew a really long line and it turned into tha 20:09:08 t 20:09:14 thats a pretty crappy sierpinski triangle 20:09:34 ehird: whoa. 20:09:35 what i mean by that is its not a sierpinski triangle. 20:09:36 who cares, it came spontaneously from one really long line 20:09:40 psygnisfive: yeah well 20:09:40 but it IS cool. 20:09:41 it looks similar 20:10:13 is that being generated by movement upwards? 20:10:18 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:10:38 I wish I knew 20:10:51 what? 20:10:59 ah, you know when you draw a long line in life 20:10:59 i mean, what did the time evolution look like 20:11:00 and it sort of 20:11:01 flickers 20:11:03 outwards 20:11:05 and gets shorter? 20:11:10 that causes it 20:11:15 it really sounds like you're on acid, you realize 20:11:19 was it just a single long line? 20:11:21 no wavering, etc? 20:11:28 well, yeah, wavering 20:11:31 lemme screeny 20:12:13 psygnisfive: http://xs536.xs.to/xs536/09071/picture_2491.png not all of it, but most of it 20:12:22 http://xs536.xs.to/xs536/09071/picture_3360.png in progress 20:12:26 oh i see 20:12:32 interesting 20:12:38 imma run this in netlogo and see 20:12:41 actually it _cannot_ have been a single long line because it's not symmetric enough 20:12:55 yeah 20:12:58 psygnisfive: I have the .rle 20:12:59 if you want 20:13:04 what language? 20:13:08 rle 20:13:10 it's a game of life file 20:13:13 use with golly or w/e 20:13:25 ah well. ill just run it in net logo, no worries 20:13:48 except that isn;t the whole thing 20:13:54 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:13:58 ok, what more is there 20:14:04 whee, i reproduced it 20:14:11 it seems you just have to make an imprecise line quite long 20:14:17 and it collapses into that 20:14:20 ok 20:14:22 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:14:34 just made a huge line 20:14:37 and it makes a huge pattern 20:14:43 I swear it's sierpinski 20:14:50 -!- Corun has joined. 20:14:57 it's fractal, at least, no question 20:15:56 psygnisfive: it even builds it in a fractal way 20:16:05 one huge line decays to lots of separate huge lines 20:16:12 which keep reducing into more, leaving behind that pattern as a trail 20:16:19 eugh. netlogo is too slow for this 20:16:27 yeah try golly 20:16:45 Hmmm... got a screenshot? 20:17:11 yes 20:17:13 see the links above 20:17:24 -!- oerjan has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:17:25 -!- Leonidas has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:17:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:17:45 -!- Leonidas has joined. 20:18:22 the best thing? 20:18:28 the other half of the line becomes a mirror of the below 20:18:30 it's a diamond 20:18:31 except 20:18:34 the top one is chaotic 20:20:48 how long a line did you have to make?? 20:21:22 psygnisfive: go to one pixel per square 20:21:26 then click and drag down 20:21:28 for about 15 seconds 20:21:30 leave go, start 20:21:36 ahhhhh ok so REALLY long 20:21:45 yeah, like 2,000 to 5,000 squares 20:22:01 What ruleset? Regular GoL? 20:22:17 yep 20:22:25 psygnisfive: just did it on a perfectly straight line 100 squares long 20:22:27 regular KoL 20:22:29 it worked 20:22:47 ehird: you have discovered a new field of mathematics! The Fields medal will surely be yours. 20:23:00 lament: stfu, this is just fun. 20:23:05 oh VERY interesting 20:23:21 you CAN build a sierpinski triangle 20:23:31 yep 20:23:34 just make a long straight line and bam 20:23:41 and its build out of the noise 20:23:49 yep 20:23:55 crazy 20:23:56 it's because the "noise" is actually long straight lines 20:24:07 they duplicate themselves, then get less tall 20:24:15 so it replicates doing that, until they destroy themselves by being 0 tall 20:25:30 psygnisfive: so it IS a sierpinski triangle, you admit :P 20:25:38 not the one you showed 20:25:42 but you can get it, yes 20:25:46 er, how 20:25:46 that's nothing special! any fool could have done that! 20:27:08 no. not _any_ fool. 20:27:27 there are people who don't manage to use computers, after all. 20:27:38 they aren't fools. 20:27:48 what do you mean how, ehird? 20:27:55 how did you get a sierpinski. 20:28:04 perfectly straight lines. 20:28:07 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:28:08 VERY long 20:28:14 10000 cells high 20:28:17 produce the same shape as mine :P 20:28:22 no? 20:28:27 yours is not sierpinski 20:28:42 neither are the perfectly straight lines 20:28:51 for mine they are o.o 20:29:23 but i dont get the same randomness you get 20:29:32 i get very clean, double ended growth 20:29:42 i wonder if im not using Life 20:29:57 if you have a double ended growth, consult a doctor asap 20:30:03 :D 20:30:19 psygnisfive: screenshot 20:30:30 ok 20:30:35 let me evolve my 10k high one 20:31:12 Hm 20:39:08 ok uploading now 20:39:43 http://wellnowwhat.net//transfers/Golly1.png 20:39:44 http://wellnowwhat.net//transfers/Golly2.png 20:40:26 You're on crack 20:40:30 that totally does not happen to a straight line 20:40:43 I know because I've tested 20:41:05 dude 20:41:06 i just did it 20:41:28 Crack. 20:41:29 its a perfectly straight line 20:41:34 ill send you the file, ok? 20:42:33 http://wellnowwhat.net//transfers/Sierpinski.rle 20:42:42 Ahh! No page! 20:42:45 whoops 20:42:46 try again 20:42:54 -!- olsner has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:42:54 -!- sebbu has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:42:55 -!- ski__ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:42:55 -!- AnMaster has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:42:56 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:43:06 stupid mac os with its inconsistent extension usage 20:43:51 -!- olsner has joined. 20:43:51 -!- ski__ has joined. 20:44:02 D: 20:44:03 netsplit D: 20:44:09 -!- AnMaster has joined. 20:44:12 spletnit 20:44:19 tintelps 20:44:40 psygnisfive: you have a // too much 20:44:56 what? 20:45:01 in that link 20:45:09 what?? 20:45:12 oh 20:45:13 D: 20:45:25 well whatever :p 20:45:37 its not like it hurts it :P 20:45:46 but see ehird? 20:45:49 it DOEs produce that 20:46:09 * ehird downloads 20:46:11 oh DEER 20:46:19 oh REINDEER 20:46:28 i know an adorable reindeerboy 20:46:37 hes so cute <3 20:46:38 *sigh* 20:46:57 with antlers? 20:47:13 mm yeah. 20:47:33 actually, he does the whole babyfur thing which is weird but whatever 20:47:54 -!- ski____ has joined. 20:47:59 -!- ski__ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:48:25 -!- ski____ has changed nick to ski__. 20:49:51 Do I need to figure out what currying is if I'm writing an Unlambda interpreter? 20:49:57 impomatic: no 20:49:59 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Success). 20:50:03 just to write an Unlambda program 20:50:08 impomatic: but why not learn what it is anyway? 20:50:13 Ah, good :-) 20:50:15 you may find s and k confusing to implement if you don't know what it is, though 20:50:16 its not all that complicated. 20:50:24 for instance, what is `si? 20:50:24 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 20:50:48 psygnisfive: you're right 20:50:52 it produces a chaotic sierpinski with debris 20:51:00 Not sure yet. 20:51:01 i dont know what yours was 20:51:02 debrinski 20:51:06 i like yours tho 20:51:08 oerjan: hahaha 20:51:09 with a 1 million population it takes about 100 million iterations :D 20:51:11 psygnisfive: just make it smaller 20:51:14 like, 1000 20:51:21 i do tho and i still get that 20:51:25 the lower half of the picture doesn't look exactly like sierpinski, but related 20:51:32 i never get the randomness that you get 20:51:33 ski__: psygnisfive found a real sirpinski 20:51:37 I've just been through my bookshelf and pulled off all the books with a section on combinatorial calculus. Now I'm going to read through them 20:51:41 psygnisfive: i love how it turns into a still life, yours 20:51:48 hm that's an actual surname :) 20:51:48 ehird : "found" meaning ? 20:51:48 nor do i get the doublesirpinski in yours 20:51:49 so carefully placed little life cells 20:51:52 ski__: made 20:51:54 debrinski? 20:51:57 yeah 20:52:01 lulz. 20:52:06 apparently lulz is also a real surname 20:52:07 *sigh* 20:52:08 x.x 20:52:23 well at least psygnisfive isn't. i hope. 20:52:31 -!- seveninchbread has joined. 20:52:32 (psygnisfive : link ?) 20:52:56 theres some tombstone somewhere with a mr and ms lulz 20:53:23 obviously its close to schulz than lulls but. 20:53:24 * ski__ remembers writing sierpinski programs on his Casio .. 20:54:23 -!- AnMaster has quit (Client Quit). 20:54:24 one nice way is starting with a pixel square with length a power of two 20:54:28 -!- Hiato has quit (Connection timed out). 20:54:39 clear all the pixels 20:54:41 -!- AnMaster has joined. 20:54:41 brb 20:54:45 initialize the leftmost uppermost pixel to on 20:55:37 then, for each subsequent line, turn on a pixel if and only if exactly one of the pixel just above, and the pixel left to the one just above is turned on 20:56:38 (treating out-of-bounds access to the left of the first column as unset .. or initialize the first column, if preferred) 20:57:00 *....... 20:57:04 **...... 20:57:15 *.*..... 20:57:17 ehird, i still want to know where yours comes from 20:57:26 ****.... 20:57:32 *...*... 20:57:39 **..**.. 20:57:45 ski__: a cellular automaton 20:57:53 *.*.*.*. 20:57:57 ******** 20:58:00 et.c. 20:58:04 if you will 20:58:20 xor ? 20:58:25 -!- AnMaster_ has joined. 20:58:25 -!- AnMaster has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:58:28 yes .. aka modulo 2 20:58:38 (possibly you could define this as an infinite stream of infinite streams, too) 20:58:50 also n over k modulo 2 20:58:57 (one can try with modulo 3, et.c. too) 20:59:16 it's the modulo result of pascal's triangle 20:59:30 indeed 20:59:50 although i guess calculating n over k first is not efficient if you are going to calculate the whole square anyhow 21:00:18 yes, it's better to do modular arithmetic the whole way 21:01:36 i tried once with random-walks with affine transforms, too .. but for some reason i got a strange system of line fragments instead of sierpinski, though 21:02:04 (or that might have been an attempt to generate van Kochs curve, now that i think of it) 21:02:36 what the hell happened a few minutes ago? 21:02:44 netsplit 21:03:07 *von koch 21:03:15 he was swedish, apparently 21:04:02 that may be .. his first name was `Helge' in any case 21:04:22 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster. 21:04:40 * ski__ kommer inte ihg att han lst att von Koch skulle vara svensk, dock 21:05:07 -!- impomatic has quit ("http://tr.im/xep :-)"). 21:05:11 wikipedia says so 21:05:21 ok. then it must be true 21:05:25 :D 21:05:43 it actually lists some of his ancestors 21:06:00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helge_von_Koch 21:06:28 * ski__ thinks `von Koch' sounds deutsch, though (or Niederlands, if it was `van') 21:06:52 yeah 21:07:06 but nobles always have pretentious names 21:08:00 (.. hm, does `Koch' mean `cook' ?) 21:08:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_(surname) 21:08:44 says yes 21:09:33 * ski__ feels too tired to use a browser himself, atm .. 21:09:52 (been reading too much blogs today) 21:10:40 -!- AnMaster has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:10:40 -!- CakeProphet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:10:41 -!- olsner has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:11:12 -!- AnMaster has joined. 21:11:12 -!- olsner has joined. 21:25:38 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:45:03 -!- seveninchbread has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:46:20 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 21:56:01 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:09:15 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:31:28 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 22:43:32 -!- DarkPants has joined. 22:44:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Nick collision from services.). 22:45:00 -!- DarkPants has changed nick to GreaseMonkey. 22:46:24 but are they really dark, or just smudged? 22:49:07 oerjan, IWC 22:49:12 er I meant hi 22:49:36 i see you are not beating around the bush 22:49:43 :D 22:49:54 * oerjan stole that from the forums, actually 22:50:48 "I wondered if it could be a triffid?" <-- from forum. Wth is a "triffid"? 22:51:31 oerjan, ^ 22:51:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_of_the_Triffids 22:52:14 AnMaster: walking plant in a famous fictional novel 22:53:00 mhm 22:53:00 it was playing as a series on the radio when my dad built his new house in the 80's. since then i think of them every time i smell sawdust... 22:53:08 the novel isn't fictional 22:53:16 well, it describes fictional events 22:53:25 the novel itself exists, ofc 22:54:30 I see I have watched way too much Star Trek... I thought of "tribbles" first... 22:54:32 -_- 22:58:52 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:01:31 fun "Wait a second, those bubbles are green? They're the same color as the rest of the site, cyan-ish." 23:01:39 After carrying 108lbs of Moxie 800ft, nothing is more refreshing than a crisp, delicious Moxie :P 23:01:47 either broken colour, or someone just finding out he/she is colour blind 23:02:39 GregorR: i guess some kinds of work are _nearly_ their own reward 23:03:00 GreaseMonkey, 108lbs? what is that in metric units? 23:03:05 AnMaster: i wondered about that comment too... 23:03:43 oerjan, sqrt(-garfied) was rather boring today 23:03:56 AnMaster: ~50kg 23:03:58 oh and I need to find an abbreviation for it 23:04:03 (In three packages :P ) 23:04:12 like smg? 23:04:13 maybe 23:04:24 SRoMG? 23:04:46 oerjan, ^ 23:04:49 \/-g 23:05:04 oerjan, you need a shorter \ 23:05:09 I bet unicode has it 23:05:19 ehird, you are the unicode expert of the channel! 23:05:21 ☃ 23:05:40 My only offer is a Unicode snowman. ☃ 23:05:46 hm ok 23:05:49 nah 23:05:56 ☃/-g 23:05:59 just doesn't cut it 23:06:02 if so i have no idea how i would write it on irc 23:06:10 Just call it ☃. 23:06:31 you and your funny question marks 23:06:42 That's not a Unicode snowman, that's fuzz followed by inverse-colored XC. 23:06:53 I guess my IRC client is really, really unhappy. 23:06:57 kerlo, yes 23:07:09 both you and oerjan need to fix your clients 23:07:14 |/-g 23:07:24 for xchat: /chaset UTF-8 23:07:28 not sure about other clients 23:07:35 ERC seems to work out of box 23:07:36 i just go to the logs when i want to see unicode 23:07:38 Well, this is irssi via screen via PuTTY. 23:07:49 kerlo, probably out of luck 23:07:51 kerlo: same here, except for the screen 23:07:58 http://unicodesnowmanforyou.com/ 23:08:04 In glorious 4000% font size. 23:08:09 It works for many Unicode things, but not all. 23:08:33 I wish http://idunnolol.com/ was free so I could put a huge ¯\(°_o)/¯ on it 23:09:04 who on earth registers a domain like http://unicodesnowmanforyou.com/ just for that...l 23:09:10 s/l$// 23:09:20 domains are like $5/year 23:09:21 kerlo, åäö 23:09:34 setting up unicodesnowmanforyou.com probably took like 15 minutes, total 23:09:37 plus it's amusing. 23:09:39 ehird, true 23:09:57 i wonder what commitee meeting ended up with that being in unicode 23:10:00 but I have seen way more expensive domains too 23:10:01 probably was in some older charset 23:10:08 ehird, probably 23:10:16 i bet font makers have fun 23:10:22 and it was probably snowing outside? 23:10:23 after drawing 5 bajillion boring characters 23:10:25 SNOWMAN TIME 23:10:28 ehird, what area is it in? 23:10:34 AnMaster: dunno 23:10:40 I bet it has its own area 23:10:43 SNOWMAN 23:10:45 - Snowman 23:10:47 hmm 23:10:50 category should be SNOWMEN. 23:10:55 probably "SIGNS" or such 23:11:00 AnMaster: aao, ring umlaut umlaut. 23:11:10 If that sounds about right, it displayed correctly. 23:11:13 kerlo, "aao"? 23:11:15 wow, http://☃.com/ is actually squatted 23:11:18 that's (snowman).com 23:11:22 kerlo, ah 23:11:48 I should get ☃.org 23:11:50 elliott@☃.org 23:11:58 haha 23:11:58 "Email elliott at snowman dot org" 23:12:04 oh, cool 23:12:05 http://www.☃.net/ 23:12:09 is unicodesnowmanforyou.com 23:12:12 ehird, except do you get snowman.org too? 23:12:19 AnMaster: no. :P 23:12:34 ehird, iirc you get aao variants for åäö for *.se 23:12:41 ooh, ooh, maybe I'll buy (unicode symbol for _|_).com 23:12:44 it will load forever 23:12:58 ehird, what is the unicode symbol for_|_? 23:12:58 (_|_ = bottom = "undefined" = infinite loop in functional language terminology) 23:13:13 AnMaster: well, it's a horizontal line with a vertical line sticking from the middle 23:13:19 ehird, it looks like a rude sign? 23:13:24 I doubt that exists in unicode 23:13:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:13:26 it looks like a penis and an upside down T. 23:13:39 ehird, it looks like a rude sign with a finger 23:13:49 anyway, night 23:13:54 it really doesn't 23:13:55 also, here it is: 23:14:11 meh 23:14:15 where? 23:14:24 I'm finding it 23:14:53 Here 'tis: 23:15:01 where? 23:15:05 AnMaster: ⊥ 23:15:09 oh line art? 23:15:13 no 23:15:20 what is the name for it? 23:15:35 dunno. 23:15:58 right 23:16:08 what a pitty klingon got rejected 23:16:11 now night 23:18:46 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:52:06 lol "Announcement: AI Has Been Solved " http://www.advogato.org/article/832.html http://mind.sourceforge.net/mind4th.html 23:52:33 What, for Unicode? That was because of a lack of works in it. 23:54:25 Will probably be reconsidered, what with such works as /ghIlghameS/ and /The Tragedy of Khamelet, Son of the Emperor of Qo'nos/. 23:54:34 "http://mind.sourceforge.net/mind4th.html achieved True AI functionality on 22 January 2008. " 23:54:38 I love kooks. 23:56:49 hm the haskell underload interpreter in http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7vypk/implementation_of_underload_an_esoteric/ is broken, doesn't handle nested parentheses 23:57:16 * oerjan mentions in case someone who actually has a reddit account wants to point it out 23:57:21 who cares 23:57:27 most people who try and do esolangs are idiots 23:57:40 oh but it is close otherwise 23:57:47 shrug 23:57:51 underload is trivial 2009-02-10: 00:03:13 AI has been solved? 00:03:18 Hope it's Friendly. 00:03:49 No, it's just some kook. :P 00:04:23 Oh, it's been "solved in theory". I wonder what that means. 00:04:39 It's some tiny inscrutable forth program, and a javascript page that only works with MSIE. 00:05:15 LOL, if you click "Terminate" 00:05:17 It pops up 00:05:18 The AI Mind is a living, sentient creature. You may unclick your decision. 00:06:18 TODAY is Friday, December 19 2008 12:36:40 PM ** Stopped ** 00:06:19 AI-Mind Previous Thought - AI CREATE IDEAS 00:06:21 xDxDxD 00:06:23 http://aimind-i.com/ 00:06:57 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 00:07:15 The Mind goes into hibernation state (Sleep) each night at 11:59 PM and wake up at 5:59 AM 00:07:15 unless it detects a keyboard entry. Then it awakes and remains awake till the following night. 00:11:45 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 00:28:40 so yeah. new blog. huzzah./ 00:28:42 http://wellnowwhat.net/blog/ 00:28:43 :P 00:28:52 blogs. how 2006. 00:28:58 :P 00:29:00 lol, wordpress. 00:29:04 How 2005. 00:29:07 yeah yeah 00:29:07 :p 00:29:23 * ehird huddles off to his written-in-Haskell tumblelog on his HD 00:29:52 i dont like the whole microblogging thing. i dont have microbloggable ideas. 00:29:56 i rarely tweet. 00:30:26 tumblelog != microblog 00:30:36 oh it so is 00:30:42 tumblelog = (blog - crap) + links + quotes + videos + pics. 00:30:54 tumblog 00:30:59 tog 00:31:06 00:31:19 i have a tumblr account. i dont like it much. 00:31:30 tumblr is shit. 00:32:21 anyway 00:32:30 tumblelogs are short form blogs. 00:32:35 nope, 00:32:39 yep? 00:32:50 ok, plenty of mixed media too 00:32:51 you're wrong. have a nice day :P 00:32:54 uh no? 00:33:00 A tumblelog is a variation of a blog that favors short-form, mixed-media posts over the longer editorial posts frequently associated with blogging. Common post formats found on tumblelogs include links, photos, quotes, dialogues, and video. Unlike blogs, tumblelogs are frequently used to share the author's creations, discoveries, or experiences while providing little or no commentary. 00:33:04 straight from the wiki. 00:33:06 they're also wrong. 00:33:13 note: i use terminology how the fuck I want. 00:33:27 so basically you're an idiot. 00:33:45 hey, all the cool people do it. 00:33:46 like oklopol. 00:37:13 -!- icefox has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:39:58 -!- icefox has joined. 00:40:38 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to p5[cafe]. 00:49:34 just like humpty dumpty 00:50:32 p5[cafe]: which wiki? :-P 00:51:20 Then again, I guess people do often refer to communication media themselves rather than the content providers. 00:51:43 I heard it on the radio, I saw it on TV, I read it online, I found it on the wiki. 00:52:27 People don't do that and expect others to know which radio station or TV station or web site or wiki they're talking about, though. 00:52:33 it came through the atmosphere 00:52:55 I perceived it via some waves. 00:53:12 waves, dude 00:54:20 actually, for 99% of the world, "i found it on the wiki" is fairly unambiguous 00:54:40 First, an emitter produced some waves. Then a converter converted the waves. Then a converter converted the waves. Then a converter converted the waves. Then a converter converted the waves. Then, lo and behold, they were inside my sensory organ. 00:54:53 True. There aren't all that many special-purpose wikis out there. 00:55:57 Still, I use Wikipedia, Wiktionary, the B Nomic Wiki, and, occasionally, the Esolang Wiki. 00:56:25 Less than an hour ago I was looking up Spanish words on the Spanish Wiktionary. 00:59:04 Well, I have to go do things. See you later tonight, possibly, or else tomorrow. 01:14:44 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lost terminal"). 01:55:13 kerlo: the one and only! 01:55:18 -!- p5[cafe] has changed nick to psygnisfive. 02:45:02 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:42:20 -!- upyr[ema` has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:47:59 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:50:30 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 05:38:20 -!- icefox has quit. 05:57:50 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 07:44:22 -!- olsner has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:37:20 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:43:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:01:50 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 10:16:33 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:43:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:11:57 -!- jix has joined. 11:25:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:31:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:57:12 -!- DH_ has joined. 12:08:09 is everyone asleep? 12:09:36 Yes. 12:09:40 But I'm sleeptyping. 12:10:27 interesting. That like stereotyping in Mono? 12:11:18 ffffffffffffffffff 12:49:25 no 12:49:39 I'm awake but a bit busy 12:57:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:25:31 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 14:10:04 -!- DH_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:38:44 -!- kwufo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:41:45 -!- icewizard has joined. 14:49:30 hi icewizard 14:49:37 you new? :) 14:49:48 hi ehird 14:49:53 hi 14:51:36 is there any other interesting language feature i should consider? 14:51:58 except pure functions since my language is imperative 14:52:18 Lazy evaluation. Getting it to work in an imperative language is hell on earth, but it's still cool :-P 14:52:31 D has a sort of lazy evaluation 14:52:36 True. 14:52:38 but it works more like a delegate 14:52:46 You can't really do things like infinite lists without pain, though. 14:52:46 hi ehird 14:52:56 ktne: extensible syntax? 14:52:59 well, i never quite got infinite lists 14:53:00 Lisp-style macros? 14:53:07 ehird: yes, proper macros are planned 14:53:25 OK. ktne: make them more generalized, so the syntax is essentially completely extensible? 14:53:32 That'd be neat, and it'd only have overhead if you actually used it. 14:53:36 And even then only at compile-time. 14:53:52 my idea is to make something like this: 14:54:04 Is there an esoteric language similar to forth? 14:54:06 not actual code, just pseudocode 14:54:14 icewizard: yep, see FALS. 14:54:17 *FALSE 14:54:23 Thanks 14:54:25 def my_macro(string):string .... {function body} 14:54:35 ktne: yeah, except 14:54:39 you can't use that nicely 14:54:39 so the macro is a function that takes a string and returns a string 14:54:42 e.g. a new control structure 14:54:47 foobarbaz (foo) { ... } 14:54:47 then at compile time 14:54:50 yes 14:54:51 you can't define that with yours 14:54:52 also 14:54:54 Pseudocode: that's be a neat name for an esoteric language :-) 14:54:54 surely you can 14:54:55 manipulating code as a string is hell 14:55:00 my idea is to take 14:55:03 you want to give the macro an AST 14:55:10 everything between {} as a string 14:55:14 yes i need ast 14:55:27 I'd just expose the parser at compile-time. Then, macros can go in a library on top of that. 14:55:54 well, ok, wait a sec to tell you about the syntax 14:56:19 basically all parentheses have to be balanced 14:56:35 Even in strings? 14:56:38 and strings must be closed 14:56:42 no, not in strings 14:56:48 Ok, well, this sounds like very conventional syntax. 14:56:53 yes 14:57:01 I just mean: Give the programmer a way to extend the parser at compile-time. 14:57:07 Heck, expose the whole compiler. 14:57:12 wait a sec 14:57:13 Then macros can just be a small library 14:57:20 the macro is any function 14:57:27 That won't work. 14:57:30 that is marked as a macro using a flag 14:57:35 You'd have to compile the code before you compile the code. 14:57:42 well of course 14:57:52 it's just that it's dynamic 14:57:55 it's not a static language 14:58:04 Lisp is dynamic,too. 14:58:05 -!- icefox has joined. 14:58:09 And it has macros separate from functions, entirely. 14:58:21 each function is compiled when entered 14:58:35 or at least when it's flagged as a macro 14:58:50 then that function will be usable in two ways 14:59:08 at the start of a statement without ; or a statement containing {} 14:59:13 so if your macro is my_macro 14:59:31 or until newline if nothing else is present 14:59:34 then those will be preprocessed by the macros 14:59:46 my_macro ... any string ... 14:59:47 I dunno. It sounds like a hack. 14:59:50 my_macro ..... ; 14:59:52 A huge, ugly hack. 14:59:58 my_macro (asdasd)asd ... {}; 15:00:03 it's not 15:00:12 those are the ways in which a macro can be used 15:00:18 I would really, really just expose the compiler at compile-time. There's no reason not to. 15:00:36 because there is no compiler 15:00:45 i plan to run it using a llvm jit 15:00:50 there is no type checking and such 15:00:57 just at runtime 15:02:37 my main question 15:02:37 if there isn't a compiler your language doesn't exist 15:02:41 you either have a compiler or an interpreter 15:02:42 should the macro be processed 15:02:48 it's interpreted 15:02:53 be processed when the function is called 15:02:58 or when the function is declared 15:03:11 if the function is processed when called, then the macro can expand in function of function arguments 15:03:15 otherwise it's fixed 15:04:11 can expand in function of function arguments -> can expand depending on the actual value of function arguments 15:04:34 i guess that would be more powerful but also somewhat slower, eventually it should be cached 15:05:13 usually lisp macros are all at compile time, right? 15:05:18 that would be declaration time 15:05:41 FALSE looks ugly. What's the most aesthetically pleasing esoteric lang? 15:05:44 this one will be probably on call time 15:05:56 icewizard: that whitespace langauge? :) 15:06:26 Urgh :-( 15:07:17 Unlambda: Your Functional Programming Language Nightmares Come True 15:07:23 http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/ 15:07:40 check that one 15:08:29 icewizard: BCT 15:08:37 http://esolangs.org/wiki/BCT 15:09:03 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 15:09:45 ehird: so? 15:09:52 what do you think? 15:10:10 ktne: I still prefer the idea of an extensible parser at compile time 15:10:19 It nets the same effect, but without the hack, and with more oppertunitiess 15:11:08 not necesarily 15:11:17 it won't have the same effect as a call time expansion 15:11:30 umm, and it shouldn't 15:11:32 that's not a macro 15:11:42 why it's not a macro? 15:12:00 hmm 15:12:06 macros are compile-time expansion 15:12:07 i can see why it wouldn't be a macro 15:12:28 i guess i will have to add both of them 15:12:32 why? 15:12:38 you can build call-time from compile-time 15:12:42 one of them will be just a sort of eval 15:12:43 i believe 15:13:00 -!- icewizard has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 15:13:06 you cannot build call-time from compile-time because call-time can make use of actual passed arguments 15:13:15 uhhh 15:13:19 i think you need to try lisp macros 15:13:21 because you absolutely can 15:13:33 yes but they look less powerful 15:13:39 than call-time expansion 15:13:45 wrong. 15:13:50 compile-time expansion is just constant call-time expansion 15:13:58 ...nope 15:14:07 i cannot see any case where it would be otherwise 15:14:53 i mean, any compile-time expansion will have the same result as a call-time expansion that does not make use of actual values of passed parameters 15:15:09 I disagree strongly, have you _tried_ lisp macros? 15:15:13 fun(a,b) { macro {..} ...} 15:15:45 now, if this is call-time then the macro can make use of actual value of a and b 15:16:18 at compile time it cannot make use of their value, unless it's expanded in a piece of code that has "if (a==..) then {..} else {...}" 15:16:27 uuhh, that's not a relevant example 15:16:37 ok, then what would be such an example? 15:17:08 well, generally macros aren't used like that 15:17:23 how are macros used then? 15:17:50 try googling for lisp macros, here's one good article: 15:17:59 http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.html 15:18:00 well i think i'm quite familiar 15:18:10 and this is why i do not understand your objection 15:18:24 except the AST-tree objection 15:18:28 it's your language, anyway. 15:18:42 i don't say that i disagree with you 15:18:49 because i don't understand your objection :) 15:19:45 my idea is that the function would make use of a stdlib function to parse the string into an ast tree 15:19:52 Ew. 15:19:59 instead of it being provided as part of the compiler 15:26:18 ehird: if i try to preparse something as an AST tree before feeding it to the macro 15:26:35 ... then you need an extensible AST to allow advanced macros. 15:26:37 then i have arbitrary limitations on the syntax that it can process 15:26:44 And macros can be built on top of an extensible AST themselves. 15:26:47 note that lisp doesn't have this issue 15:26:48 Thus, extensible parser at compile time. 15:27:07 because lisp doesn't use an internal representation that is different from the syntax representation 15:28:18 but because my syntax representation is not the same as internal representation i cannot preprocess the code as an AST tree before feeding it into the macro 15:28:21 do you get me? 15:28:32 Yes. 15:28:36 But only 15:28:41 because of your self-imposed limitations on the parser. 15:28:57 actually there is no limitation, it's the opposite 15:29:10 the parser is a stdlib function that is called by the macro 15:29:21 on the parts of the code that are known syntax 15:29:35 the macro has to handle the other parts of the macros that cannot be parsed by the standard parser 15:30:04 because there is no limitation on what form the syntax might take it is not possible to pass it first to the parser 15:30:08 I disagree with the option you're taking, it's your language, and I can't seem to convince you. So, fine. 15:30:27 ok, le's suppose we have a macro called regex 15:30:30 regex ... ; 15:30:45 this will compile that regex as some sort of object that does string matching 15:30:53 how could that be preprocessed by the parser? 15:31:06 it's not anything resembling common language syntax 15:31:07 because at compiletime you can extend the parser 15:31:10 and you add any syntax for regexs 15:31:11 it's a whole different langauge 15:31:17 even something more convenient 15:31:19 like R/.../ 15:31:40 then you add a function to compile that AST to the base language 15:31:40 tada 15:32:34 well that is for inline identifiers 15:32:40 -!- mib_9uywpz has joined. 15:32:41 i mean, for inline code 15:32:57 no. 15:32:59 it can be for anything. 15:33:07 for example such inline macro expansion would be any 0x followed by any number of 0 and 1 and ending in 'b' 15:33:12 want plain macros to just add a control structure? you can put that in a library! 15:33:13 0x01010101b 15:33:17 that extends the parser 15:33:34 it's the more general, purer solution, it has more useful oppertunities, it's less of a hack, and it's better 15:33:34 -!- mib_9uywpz has quit (Client Quit). 15:33:45 the problem with that is that it assumes that the inner code can be preprocessed first 15:33:53 but it cannot be 15:34:04 think about this: 15:34:10 excuse me. you are writing a parser anyway ,right? 15:34:15 a parser can parse the syntax 15:34:25 i'm giving up now, there's obviously no way I can convince you 15:34:29 you define an inline macro (let's say by expanding the parser) that handles all those binary numbers i described above 15:34:53 then you have a macro called my_macro that takes a block of code as parameter, maybe this is a control statement macro 15:35:10 now let's suppose we try to work with this: 15:35:23 my_macro { 0x1010101b 0x10010101b ; 0x10010101000b } 15:35:35 sure. 15:35:46 the question is, what shall my_macro be fed with? 15:36:12 if the parser is extended 15:36:27 then those binary numbers would be preprocessed 15:36:36 then a list of three binary numbers would be prepared 15:36:41 I'm saying REMOVE MACROS 15:36:46 macros can be made as syntactic extensions 15:36:47 just like that one 15:36:50 and this list would be fed into my_macro 15:36:52 make a library to make defining macros easier 15:37:07 but 15:37:18 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:37:25 the problem with this is that it makes assumptions on what those particular strings mean in the my_macro ASL 15:37:31 i mean DSL 15:37:31 no it does not 15:37:35 it does 15:37:36 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:37:41 because you cannot assign any other meaning to it 15:37:43 you can easily make it not parse the binaries with a parser 15:37:57 if you don't know how, well, I seriously doubt your skills in compiler construction 15:37:58 ok, but what about all other macros? 15:38:06 whta 15:38:09 *what 15:38:11 the point is that you cannot make absolutely any assumption 15:38:21 umm. you don't. 15:38:21 you cannot preprocess that at all 15:38:27 sure you can. 15:38:33 anyway, I give up, do itthe other way. 15:38:37 instead you pass that as a STRING to the macro 15:38:48 then the macro calls the standard parser on the parts that follow common syntax 15:39:11 and the standard parser will parse those binary numbers into binary AST nodes 15:39:20 binnum ast nodes 15:40:15 this is all because you cannot preprocess the inner macros 15:40:30 you have to leave all processing in the hightest outer macro 15:40:53 that higher outer macro will make all necesary calls, like to preprocess any existing inline forms like binary numbers for example 15:41:14 otherwise you have to make assumptions on what the actual macro content is, which you cannot do 15:41:32 no 15:41:46 ehird: you would have to manually specify the list of all exceptions 15:41:52 errr, no 15:41:55 then? 15:42:13 how do you disable binary number handling inside the macro? 15:42:33 either you're handling regular code in the block, or you're not putting a code node in there, you're putting your custom node. 15:43:14 but the problem is that only the higher outer macro knows what ast node the code between {} represents 15:43:29 ... so you put that in its ast definition 15:43:31 this is reall ysimple 15:43:55 yes but you cannot preprocess the content of the block 15:44:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:44:24 because the content can be processed using only the higher outer macro because that's the one that determines the meaning of the inner block 15:44:39 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:45:19 ok, brb 15:58:02 -!- FireyFly has joined. 16:05:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:12:07 -!- DH_ has joined. 16:17:27 -!- kwufo has joined. 16:18:20 -!- icefox has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:19:19 -!- icefox has joined. 16:40:07 -!- icefox has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:40:36 -!- icefox has joined. 16:52:59 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 16:56:26 -!- DH_ has quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"). 17:40:38 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 17:53:39 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:55:34 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 17:57:34 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:20:19 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:20:58 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 18:37:55 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:39:31 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:59:42 hi ais523 18:59:47 hi AnMaster 19:08:40 -!- olsner has joined. 19:09:23 >>> float("inf")*float("inf") 19:09:25 inf 19:09:25 >>> float("inf")**2 19:09:25 OverflowError: (34, 'Result too large') 19:10:02 haha 19:10:55 >>> inf**0 19:10:55 1.0 19:12:48 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:16:54 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:29:25 -!- oerjan has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:29:25 -!- Hiato has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:29:25 -!- Slereah2 has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:29:25 -!- MigoMipo has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:29:26 -!- Leonidas has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:29:33 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:29:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:29:33 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 19:29:33 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:29:33 -!- Leonidas has joined. 20:03:09 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:10:01 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:27:12 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:52:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:10:25 -!- icefox has quit. 21:18:06 "interactive gopher"? 21:18:11 see zzo38's latest esowiki edit 21:18:26 -!- ais523 has changed nick to CourageWolf. 21:18:30 -!- CourageWolf has changed nick to ais523. 21:20:41 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to Zetro. 21:23:21 -!- Zetro has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:25:34 -!- FireFly has joined. 21:25:45 * oerjan swats FireFly -----### 21:26:06 :< 21:26:18 are those <'s wings? 21:26:31 or tiny legs? 21:26:38 Or a really sad mouth? 21:29:42 I'd like to see a language where the variables are named by positive integers from 0 and up, that each start with its respective value as its default value, and where those variables are the only way to modify the variables.. Eg. no native numerals. 21:29:51 Hm 21:29:53 FireFly: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Forte 21:30:02 oh, also control flow's done that way 21:30:15 and it messes up arithmetic: 21:30:22 10 LET 4=5 21:30:27 20 PRINT (2+2)+2 21:30:29 prints 7 21:30:52 :( 21:30:55 Someone beats me to it 21:31:00 sorry, that was me 21:31:01 Ah 21:31:03 I like Forte, though 21:31:03 Someone was you 21:31:04 :) 21:31:17 also notable is that it has no known implementations in /non/-esoteric languages 21:33:49 40 PRINT 6*9 21:33:49 This now outputs 42, as 9 has the value 7. 21:33:55 That's more correct 21:38:45 no, that's exactly as correct :D 21:47:55 Has anyone ever tried to implement Sir. Cut? 21:54:19 Back. 21:55:27 also, I'd ignore zzo38 most of the time 21:55:38 Some of his langs are fun but apart from that he's pretty loony. 21:55:48 (In the boring sense rather than the esoteric sense.) 21:56:14 seeing his latest comment, umm, it certainly isn't english. 21:56:34 http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainClub 21:56:40 his stupid web browser supports that, lol 21:56:48 it's just forth. 21:56:50 ugly forth 21:58:07 Although sometimes zzo38 says deep things. 21:58:08 "// These numbers are just examples. In reality they would be stupid" 21:58:58 speaking of which, I made a toy lazy SKI interpreter in C to help impomatic understand SKI. 21:58:59 http://pastie.org/385352.txt?key=12g4muwehv2sg6qieyv3w 21:59:02 Requires Boehm GC. 21:59:28 Not speaking of which at all actually butthere you go 21:59:57 hmm 21:59:59 actually it's broken 22:00:08 non-combinator constant expressions never terminate 22:00:09 * ehird fixes 22:03:59 http://pastie.org/385435.txt?key=y4wsv9nkgik3jmeaixmqdg 22:04:59 ```sii``sii is fun with laziness 22:05:00 ``i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i``sii`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i``sii 22:05:44 It goes thusly : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Loop.jpg 22:05:45 :D 22:05:59 Yep 22:06:09 It's a lovely pattern 22:06:31 Wonder if there's an infinite loop that doesn't grow lazily 22:07:29 Laziness, eh? 22:07:34 Yes. 22:07:37 We're all very lazy. 22:07:49 That's the whole reason for Lazy Bird 22:07:51 ais523: hi 22:08:01 Slereah2: Erm, lazy SKI is not an innovative concept 22:08:13 ehird : I know 22:08:20 oh 22:08:28 But it still is the reason behind it :3 22:08:35 lazy SKI: when you go straight to the after-ski 22:08:39 Huh, ```sii``sii somehow stays in constant space in my interp 22:08:44 ```sii``sii -> ``i``sii`i``sii -> ```sii`i``sii -> ``i`i``sii`i`i``sii 22:08:46 Really, it started out as me trying to make Unlambda on a Turing machine. 22:08:48 Great. 22:08:52 kerlo: Yes. 22:08:54 And you guys told me "this is wrong, this is lazy" 22:08:56 Oh, wait. 22:08:58 Now it's growing in space. 22:09:02 And I was all like "What the fuck is lazy?" 22:09:08 Less than a megabyte thoooo 22:09:39 I conclude that this will eventually overflow the stack. 22:09:44 If you wait like 5 billion years. 22:10:10 ehird: it's square root growth, isn't it. 22:10:23 Slereah2: so, what is this oddly-anti-aliased image of yours? 22:10:29 well, my interp actually only uses the stack very shallowly. 22:10:35 It is this : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Loop.txt 22:10:35 it has to chop off all the i's before the next big iteration 22:10:39 kerlo: small screenshot of lazy ```sii`sii evolution 22:10:42 oerjan: right 22:10:46 but specifically, 22:10:46 Well, not exactly 22:10:47 (I have a feeling sinc or Lanczos resampling wouldn't do that. :-P) 22:10:50 my interp will only recurse to find: 22:10:54 the equality of two expressions 22:10:55 and 22:10:57 to evaluate the applier 22:11:10 So it'll take Quite a Long Time to make this crash 22:11:50 oh right recursion too, so removing _one_ i would be O(n) 22:12:04 i think 22:12:13 you know what's irritating? 22:12:13 % ./ski 22:12:14 warning: this program uses gets(), which is unsafe. 22:12:16 I don't care 22:12:18 IT'S A SMALL HACK 22:12:20 fuck you glibc 22:12:24 NANNY STATE OF THE C LIBRARIES 22:14:00 i don't really know, but i expect 99% of fatal security bugs are because of something the programmer _should_ have seen, and which he would think is so obvious that he would be annoyed if he was warned about it (before getting a clue) 22:14:19 but that's just my general prejudice on human stupidity 22:14:40 yes but 22:14:43 it should tell me at COMPILE TIME 22:14:47 not at EVERY SINGLE RUNTIME 22:14:58 hm ok 22:16:17 hm wait that recursion is only O(n) if it restarts at the top every step 22:16:34 yeah 22:16:37 otherwise it can obviously do all the i's in O(n) 22:16:41 ````ssk``s`k``ss`s``sskk```ssk``s`k``ss`s``sskk 22:16:42 even that grows 22:16:43 :< 22:16:57 :(| 22:17:49 is that a frog 22:17:55 problem is because of the way s works, you cannot get the third argument simplified until you actually use it. hm. 22:18:10 yeah 22:18:20 we need an expression that takes N steps to get to itself 22:18:24 (not an equivalent version; itself) 22:19:08 hm something with church numerals? 22:19:42 oerjan: fun fact: the Y combinator (or any fixed point combinator) is the infinite church numeral 22:19:47 you can turn something equivalent to a church numeral into a church numeral by applying it to increment 22:19:52 0 f x = x 22:19:54 1 f x = f x 22:19:57 2 f x = f (f x) 22:20:00 thus simplifying 22:20:15 can you figure out how? 22:20:19 :P 22:20:21 it's kind of neat 22:20:23 well 22:20:25 it actually goes to 22:20:28 f (f (f ...)) x 22:20:29 but you can fixthat 22:20:31 trivially 22:20:56 (i mean, it's just \x y -> fix x) 22:22:18 oerjan: am I right, wrong? 22:23:16 sounds reasonable 22:25:06 "But, you might not understand how to write a program in FORTAVM if you aren't a real programmer" 22:25:12 -- zzo38 serious project http://www.ifwiki.org/index.php/User:Zzo38/FORTAVM 22:25:35 * oerjan read that as FORTRAN 22:25:58 it reminded me of FORTRAN, but I didn't misread it 22:26:20 i saw a post by zzo38 on some forum 22:26:34 it was in a topic about the forum's improved search feature 22:26:40 he complained, saying it would be better if it was less user friendly 22:26:48 i'm sure i would read better if there wasn't someone with an annoying sulky voice having a phone conversation in the next room 22:26:48 for no reason other than it would be less user friendly 22:27:01 crazy guy. I wonder if it's just a put-on personality. 22:29:21 * oerjan wonders what his native language is. 22:29:29 I think it's actually english. 22:29:35 He just, ummm, doesn't know english. 22:29:58 Possibly autism or something 22:30:57 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:33:26 aww, someone corrected a spelling error in the English article 22:34:49 I would probably use a athena widgets or a similar one, and not targeting any particular desktop to make it work with any desktop or even working without desktop at all, I don't even know why you need a desktop anyways! 22:34:53 --zzo38 22:34:54 * oerjan thought the spelling errors were the best part... 22:34:58 Yeah us crazy people and our desktops 22:35:05 Athena widgets are awesome. 22:35:12 yay, -Xaw 22:35:40 http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/9275/173050.aspx 22:35:41 Hay! I paid for this! Now it is nearly gone and now what am I supposed to do? 22:36:40 "Which forum, which isn't closed, does have something to do with that BBS?" 22:36:42 hahahahahh 22:37:28 You can't be so stupid that you can't get the point here. Can you? No, nobody could be that dumb and manage to feed themselves enough to live. Could they? 22:37:50 zzo38: Advancing the understanding of human knowledge daily. 22:37:52 I can't write very clearly enough to be understood 22:38:27 Theory: zzo38 is actually an AI. 22:38:52 The fact that he is batshit insane and has no common sense (which he admits) is attributed to the lack of the millions of years of evolution and development of this that humans have gone through 22:38:55 -!- jix has joined. 22:39:35 ehird: also, you are a prick 22:39:47 This also. 22:39:49 :D 22:39:59 actually, he probably has Asperger's Syndrome 22:40:07 I said autism earlier 22:40:19 ehird: do you have autism? 22:40:26 the forum posts you linked to shows that zzo38 is clearly aware of his problems, and cannot do anything about them. 22:40:27 kerlo: Probably not. 22:40:43 oerjan: Doesn't mean i can't theorize about the origins,. 22:41:06 I blame my batshit insanity on aphasia. :-D 22:41:11 hey 22:41:14 we're nicer in B 22:41:51 except for j and wooble :p 22:42:11 a prick with aspergers - asprick? 22:42:11 kerlo: You have aphasia? :P 22:42:21 lament: Or, "a sprick" 22:42:25 "You're such a sprick." 22:43:03 no one here likes aspricks, except psygnisfive 22:43:44 Hmm, look at what I walked into. 22:43:47 ehird: come over to my house, turn on the radio to NPR, and say something. I might understand you. 22:43:58 pikhq: you've been here all along 22:44:11 oerjan: I leave my IRC client on 24/7. 22:44:30 I DON'T BELIEVE YOU 22:44:40 Would you prefer to think that I never sleep? 22:44:54 SLEEP IS FOR WEENIES 22:45:33 My roommate would agree. 22:45:53 woot, it's time for a polyglot emergency procedure 22:45:58 Does that mean that sleep deprivation makes weenies unhappy? 22:46:00 He sleeps a total of 2 hours a day. 22:46:04 (polyphasic sleep) 22:46:07 e5 emergency + earlier e5 emergency + e2 emergency 22:46:11 this will be fun 22:46:22 e5? e2? 22:46:28 Era 5, Era 2. 22:46:35 B Nomic. I'm mentioning this in here because it is esoteric. 22:46:41 ehird: just because you've left ##nomic doesn't mean you have to turn #esoteric into ##nomic 22:46:42 Basically, half the rules may have been commented out for 5 years. 22:46:49 ais523: The situation is esoteric in the highest degree 22:46:50 kerlo: it makes _me_ unhappy at least 22:46:53 Therefore, it is relevant. QED. 22:47:06 hmm... I'll ask oerjan the relevant question 22:47:15 oerjan: in [[a]]b[[c]], is the b between "[[" and "]]"? 22:47:31 Note: 5 years of gameplay is destroyed if you say "yes". :P 22:47:35 Also, it's actually 22:47:38 foo [[a]] bar 22:47:39 foobar 22:47:41 ehird: no, the 5 years of gameplay never existed 22:47:41 foo [[c]] bar 22:47:46 ais523: Ssh. 22:47:50 ehird: still all one document, though 22:47:52 I want him to feel GUILTY, dammit. 22:47:59 i'd say it is inbetween 22:48:11 jix: Congrats! You have destroyed B Nomic. Have a nickel. 22:48:15 i'll say "no" then, since that was my initial hunch anyway 22:48:26 -!- kwufo has quit ("Leaving."). 22:48:36 oerjan is a published mathematician and therefore not a retarded monkey. 22:48:38 And therefore correct. 22:48:39 but i'm not a native english speaker.... 22:48:42 Let's go back to playing B Nomic. 22:48:43 -!- kwufo has joined. 22:48:53 ehird : But he has no Erdos number! 22:49:04 although obviously there should have been a "matching" in there to clarify. 22:49:06 Yes, he does. 22:49:38 WHAT IS IT THEN, HUH? 22:49:52 1 at, into, or across the space separating (two objects or regions) 22:49:54 i'm sure some of the best mathematicians are retarded monkeys. or great apes, at least. 22:50:02 hmmm 22:50:11 i just can't see how b is not between [[ and ]] 22:50:19 neither can I 22:50:25 I bet a million monkeys at a million typewriter could publish a math paper 22:50:28 ehird's assuming it was on the wish-it-were interpretation 22:50:39 Slereah2: sure, how much do you want to bet? 22:50:44 no 22:50:45 it's context 22:50:49 in the context of the rules 22:50:51 it's very obvious 22:51:01 ehird: it's obvious what was meant. That's different from what it /is/. 22:51:04 lament : ONE MILLION DOLLARS 22:51:08 just like in programming, the compiler doesn't guess what you meant 22:51:18 well, unless you're writing in Perl 22:51:37 Slereah2: deal! Let's do it. 22:51:40 Slereah2: 4 iirc 22:51:40 what is the exact relevant sentence? 22:51:51 since last it was mentioned here 22:52:04 First, to find a million monkeys... 22:52:39 ais523: can you point me to the rule where the word between is used? 22:52:54 jix: I'm trying to find it 22:53:01 the problem is that there were lots of versions 22:53:14 hm what are the most common primates other than humans? 22:53:22 jix: here's the maybe-current version: 22:53:38 In every Game Document, with the exception of this paragraph, text between a forward slash+asterisk character combination and an asterisk+forward slash character combination or between double square brackets (that is, text between "/*" and "*/" or between "[[" and "]]") shall be deemed Comment Text. Comment Text has no direct effect on the state of the game, although it can be read. 22:53:54 Slereah2: A million monkeys at a million typewriters given infinte time could probably *compose* a math paper. However, they probably couldn't publish one. 22:53:54 In each Game Document, with the exception of this paragraph, text 22:53:56 between doubled square brackets (that is, text between "[[" and "]]") 22:53:57 shall be deemed Comment Text. Comment Text has no direct effect on the 22:53:59 state of the game, although it can be read. 22:54:00 grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr 22:54:04 Instead, they would throw shit on the page. 22:54:06 read before flooding 22:54:11 ehird: you pasted the wrong version 22:54:14 arguably, so did I 22:54:24 they were identical, ais523 22:54:27 but the problem is, if /any/ of the versions is buggy, B's in trouble 22:54:30 ehird: no they weren't 22:54:33 yours has /* */ in 22:54:35 mine doesn't 22:54:38 so they aren't identical 22:54:42 fine 22:54:51 also, yours is probably more problematic than mine 22:55:04 "between a forward slash+asterisk character combination and an asterisk+forward slash character combination" has absolutly no implication of matching involved 22:55:08 so, someone make a constant-space lazy ski infloop :D 22:55:15 whereas "between double square brackets" might do 22:55:49 slash+asterisk character combination doesn't specify the order of / and * for me.... 22:55:54 my question: is that rule on comments itself after a [[ and before a ]]? :D 22:56:03 so it would imply */ this is a comment /* 22:56:05 oerjan: in some versions of the ruleset, not in others 22:56:14 which is _extra_ problematic 22:56:22 -!- _0x44 has joined. 22:56:28 That seems rather problematic; how would it parse [[Comment 1?[[]]Comment3?]] 22:56:43 Would Comment3? be comment or not? 22:57:06 That's not an issue, we don't have that in the rules. 22:57:11 The issue is foo [[bar]] baz [[quux]] 22:57:20 That, too, is an issue. 22:57:22 Is baz comment text? I argue that assuming greedy is just as silly as assuming non-greedy. 22:57:22 ehird: are you sure? that that was never there in several years of B Nomic? 22:57:29 ehird: it's not a case of assuming 22:57:32 it's the literal meaning of "between" 22:57:33 Therefore, we must pick one, and I will pick the one that doesn't break FIVE YEARS. 22:57:39 greedy vs. nongreedy is a programming concept 22:57:45 that has nothing to do with betweenness 22:57:50 go up to someone on the street 22:57:51 ask them 22:57:53 the word between does not immediately generate a regexp whenever it's used 22:57:53 I vote that you break 5 years. B Nomic breaks a lot. ;p 22:57:55 a regular person 22:58:03 <_0x44> ehird: A regular person doesn't play B. 22:58:08 I will bet £30 they won't pick your interpretaiton 22:58:09 <_0x44> ehird: So your argument is flawed. 22:58:09 ehird: yes, they'll say "between means between, why are you spouting all these programming terms at me?" 22:58:19 -!- Sgeo[College] has joined. 22:58:19 ais523: don't say greedy/non greedy 22:58:22 if they even know they're programming terms 22:58:25 would /* foo */ bar /* baz */ be an issue too? 22:58:30 _0x44: a regular person has the better interests of B in mind, then. 22:58:36 Sgeo[College]: in [[a]]b[[c]], is the b between "[[" and "]]"? 22:58:41 hm if you asked someone on the street whether something was "between parentheses", they would probably assuming matching. 22:58:52 ais523: yes 22:59:38 Sgeo[College]: we've been having a huge argument about that for about 5 minutes here, and much longer elsewhere 22:59:42 Wait, that wasn't a trick question? You really want me to make such an interpretation for the sake of B? 22:59:45 just trying to gain data points 22:59:50 i have found something interesting 22:59:52 * Sgeo[College] thought it was a simple trick question 22:59:54 bracket: each of a pair of marks [ ] used to enclose words or figures so as to separate them from the context 23:00:02 so the term brackets implies pairs 23:00:06 which implies matching.... 23:00:11 do pairs imply matching? 23:00:15 but that definition's interesting 23:00:19 it implies that [ is not a bracket 23:00:25 until someone writes the matching ] 23:00:29 and that's a ridiculous interpretation 23:00:44 it's from the dictionary that comes with mac os x 23:00:57 it's a bra. a rather ill-fitting one. 23:01:07 new oxford american dictionary 23:01:15 ais523: that definition is from ... yeah, what jix said 23:01:21 I think they're more of an authority than you... 23:01:51 (i have no interest in breaking or saving nomic but i think it is a damn interesting question....) 23:01:52 ehird: well, that will lead to all sorts of breakage in all sorts of esolangs 23:01:55 +b 23:01:56 <_0x44> I just got two conflicting answers from two "normal" people. 23:02:04 if [ isn't a bracket 23:02:15 _0x44: this is showing that there IS ambiguity, there IS room for disagreement 23:02:22 ais523: wait each of a pair..... 23:02:23 thus, we can collectively decide which we will interpret it as 23:02:25 so let's not break the game 23:02:30 ais523: doesn't tha mean one of those that belong to a pair? 23:02:37 I asked two random people here, and they said no 23:03:17 i think one should decide this by giving some references on how to inrepret this 23:03:21 and random people aren't good references 23:03:26 Sgeo[College]: yay, majority 23:03:29 If a normal person, upon being given the sentence "The (quick) brown fox jumps over the (lazy) dog" and an instruction to determine how many words are between parentheses, might say "two" rather than "seven", then the good interpretation is acceptable. 23:03:44 agreed 23:03:57 really? I'd say 5 23:04:19 yes, but I think we've established you have little to no grip on reality, like most people in here 23:04:36 Like most Nomicians. 23:04:39 I mentally interpreted it as "between parenthesized groups" the way you said it 23:04:51 I can't actually mentally reword it to get the answer 2 23:04:54 i have a good grip on reality, with my InstaGrip Universe Squeezer here 23:05:05 "for each maching set of parentheses, between the two parentheses that make up the set"? 23:05:21 ehird: in "The (quick (brown) fox) jumps over the lazy dog", how many words are between parentheses? 23:05:29 3 23:05:37 not 4? 23:05:43 no. 23:05:46 quick, brown and fox. 23:05:47 in that case, I'd say your 2 above is bogus 23:05:50 nesting matters. 23:06:00 ais523: would you let the definition of brackets have influence of how to interpret this? 23:06:06 ehird: exactly, and a nesting-matters interpretation should count brown twice, thus reach 4 23:06:12 -!- SchrodingersCat has joined. 23:06:18 what 23:06:19 How about "how many words are within parentheses"? 23:06:21 no 23:06:25 there isn't two brown 23:06:27 kerlo: within, I'd say 2 and 3 23:06:27 there's one brown 23:06:29 it cannot count as 2 23:06:29 only 1 23:06:47 we're counting WORDS 23:06:48 enclosed 23:06:48 and words only 23:06:54 there are only 3 words that appear between parentheses 23:07:19 enclosed or within, fine 23:07:20 but "between"? 23:07:31 sure. 23:07:34 between = enclosed between 23:07:36 i got 5 as answer to "The (quick) brown fox jumps over the (lazy) dog" 23:07:36 common english usage 23:07:48 ehird: so it isn't such a ridiculous question after all 23:08:02 it wasn't just me who jumped to 5 as the answer to that question... 23:08:05 jix: its not a good question 23:08:07 ehird: enclosed between? 23:08:10 parens = parenthesed groups 23:08:12 is also common usage 23:08:20 no, sexps = parenthesised groups 23:08:23 parens = parentheses 23:08:39 yes if you're a programmer 23:08:46 the question IS ambiguous 23:08:47 Nobody ever says sexps. 23:08:51 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:08:52 Speaking of which... 23:09:10 Sex pee. 23:09:22 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/407518/code-golf-leibniz-formula-for-pi/408493#408493 :) 23:09:23 -!- kerlobot has joined. 23:09:34 %eval (Sex pee.) 23:09:34 (Sex pee.) 23:09:38 Lovely. 23:10:13 %eval (((s i) i) ((s i) i)) 23:10:19 MizardX: Stack overflow? Ugh. 23:10:21 (((YOU ARE LOOP SORRY) i) (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i 23:10:36 however, 23:10:37 that is nice 23:10:40 shortest pi prorgam? 23:10:44 oh 23:10:47 it just prints the first few digits 23:10:47 lame. 23:10:50 YOU ARE LOOP SORRT? 23:10:54 *SORRY/ 23:10:55 ais523: *SORRY 23:10:56 *SORRY? 23:11:00 it terminates loop 23:11:01 s 23:11:03 with that message 23:11:38 * Sgeo[College] points ais523 and ehird and others to SchrodingersCat's responses in ##nomic 23:11:46 ais523: you got a lazy SKI infinite loop that doesn't grow? 23:11:51 ```sii``sii loops 23:11:55 but it grows 23:11:56 -!- _0x44 has quit. 23:11:57 forever 23:11:58 ehird: not offhand 23:12:30 that's ok, we'd prefer you to have it on hand 23:12:35 not there either? 23:12:54 darn. 23:14:01 /* smallest c++ program: */ void main(){} 23:14:13 int main(){} 23:14:14 beat you 23:14:23 main=0 23:14:24 also, int is correct, void isn't 23:14:26 Beat you? 23:14:32 ais523:no return 23:14:36 kerlo: that's compile error in C++ 23:14:43 Aww. 23:14:46 SchrodingersCat: doesn't need one to be valid 23:14:50 main = return 0 23:14:56 lament: that looks like Haskell 23:14:59 Can you say "address of main = address of 0"? 23:15:01 kerlo: it's valid C89, though 23:15:04 lament: you mean main = unsafeCoerce 0. 23:15:11 kerlo: that's main=0 in C89 23:15:13 void main(){} works in some compilers, I think 23:15:24 Bye all 23:15:29 Sgeo[College]: in most, although gcc will shout at you because the standard doesn't let you do that 23:15:31 and bye 23:16:22 kerlo: does kerlobot do abstraction elimination 23:16:31 No. Maybe it ought to. 23:16:38 Also, you can implement abstraction elimination. 23:16:40 * SchrodingersCat saw Sgeo[College] log off of the computer he was working on. 23:17:11 Figure out how... 23:17:25 I would expect it to be rather difficult. :-P 23:17:25 SchrodingersCat: do you know Sgeo in RL? 23:17:36 ais523: yes 23:17:59 -!- Sgeo[College] has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 23:18:09 oklopol: olobot plz 23:18:12 ololobot 23:18:13 whatever 23:18:19 it has abstraction eliminaty 23:18:37 g++ compiles "main(){};" 23:19:02 uh why did i put a ; there 0o... 23:19:33 ah but with -pedantic 23:19:37 ISO C++ forbids declaration of ‘main’ with no type 23:19:45 jix: last i checked, main() can't be used as a prototype 23:20:29 jix: yes, that's a C89-ism 23:23:04 int(*main); 23:23:09 g++ compiles that with -pedantic -ansi 23:23:15 of course it crashes 23:23:25 as main is an uninitialized function pointer 23:23:27 but it compiles 23:23:59 jix: that's undefined behaviour 23:24:11 and it's a legal translation unit, but not legal as an entire program 23:24:21 legal as a translation unit is why g++ didn't complain 23:24:34 it's the linker that should complain, and it doesn't have enough context to know it should complain about C++'s rules 23:24:38 ais523: it doesn't 23:24:44 ais523: this isn't declared as extern 23:24:57 so it's initialized with 0 23:25:24 that's what i'd expect 23:26:13 main="\317"; 23:26:15 compiles, runs 23:26:24 main={317}; 23:26:27 possibly compiles, runs 23:26:38 ehird: that's legal C (although UB), but not legal C++, even though it may compile 23:26:44 317? 23:26:45 who cares about C++ 23:26:46 ehird: 'test.cpp:1: error: expected constructor, destructor, or type conversion before ‘=’ token' 23:26:53 SchrodingersCat: machine koed 23:26:56 ehird: we were talking about the smalles C++ program 23:27:02 ah 23:27:42 i guess the c++ standard isn't free? 23:28:04 google it, there's probably a pirated version somewheres 23:28:37 the book is somewhere between $40 and $60 23:29:54 tiny.c:1: error: empty scalar initializer 23:29:55 tiny.c:1: error: (near initialization for ‘main’) 23:29:55 huh 23:29:59 why isn't main={}; valid 23:30:09 shouldn't it just be a 0-length array 23:30:22 IIRC, one of the drafts is online 23:30:25 * SchrodingersCat is installing c onto his palm pilot 23:30:29 and it's a just-before-the-official-version drafts 23:30:31 ais523: i got it already 23:30:32 *draft 23:30:38 ais523: googled for ISO/IEC 14882:1998 .... first hit 23:32:26 here's the smallest K&R c program 23:32:27 main; 23:32:39 yes, that works 23:32:39 compiles to this rather tiny assembly 23:32:40 .comm _main,16 23:32:40 .subsections_via_symbols 23:32:48 at least if int and int(*)() are the same size 23:32:50 it's all assembler directives XD 23:32:51 which they often are 23:32:58 ais523: segfaults, ofc 23:33:02 well, duh 23:33:14 need it? 23:33:14 if only one line, is the ";" still needed? 23:33:18 given that it isn't initialising memory 23:33:25 ais523: well, there is a tiny chance it wouldn't 23:33:27 SchrodingersCat: yes 23:33:30 might there be a chance that you end up with a valid program by chance? 23:33:34 yes. 23:33:38 but it's a rather small chance 23:33:44 (gdb) start 23:33:45 "main" is not a function 23:33:47 gtg 23:33:49 how do you know 23:33:51 I didn't give it a type 23:33:53 -!- SchrodingersCat has quit ("Leaving"). 23:33:54 it's int but that could be anything 23:33:56 STOP ASSUMING 23:33:59 ASS OUT OF YOU AND ME 23:34:27 ehird: in K&R C, and in C89 but it's deprecated, int is the default type when one isn't given 23:34:38 I know 23:34:38 holdover from BCPL, where everything was an int 23:34:41 but an int could be practically anything :P 23:34:42 also, no 23:34:45 everything was a word 23:34:48 well, yes 23:34:55 a 32-bit word, to be precise 23:35:00 hell 23:35:04 o, w 23:35:07 orld 23:35:08 I don't think it ran on processors with different bitwidths 23:35:22 that's from the B original hello world :-) 23:35:34 it defined three variables with 'hell', 'o, w' and 'orld' 23:35:39 and printed them out separately, then a newline 23:35:42 (yes, single quotes) 23:36:06 very BCPL 23:36:23 come to think of it, 32-bit processors weren't very popular back then 23:36:24 well duh, B is a simplified(!) BCPL 23:36:29 must have been for mainframes, or something 23:36:34 also, BCPL has the best array index notation ever 23:36:39 BCPL !a = C *a 23:36:45 BCPL 4!a = C a[4] 23:36:51 or you could write a!4, it comes to the same thing 23:37:02 just like you can write 4[a] in C 23:37:17 beautiful 23:37:18 ais523: you are right 23:37:29 jix: about what? [[a]]b[[c]]? 23:37:30 didn't realize i was just making an int pointer there ^^ 23:37:33 oh 23:37:34 main="Hello, world!\n"; 23:37:37 %eval (c h (ello, world)) 23:37:37 (c h (ello, world)) 23:37:38 functions on the cat architechture. 23:37:41 %eval (c h ello,) 23:37:42 hello, 23:37:44 anyway, I have to go home now 23:37:45 Woot. 23:37:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:37:48 ais523: and the standard sais main has to be a function 23:38:09 he's gone 23:38:10 drop it 23:38:11 forever 23:38:13 /melodramatic 23:41:34 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 23:53:33 -!- ktne has left (?). 23:59:50 -!- fungot has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:59:50 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:59:56 -!- fungot has joined. 23:59:56 -!- fizzie has joined. 2009-02-11: 00:09:00 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:09:36 -!- Corun has joined. 00:10:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("bye"). 00:11:04 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 00:16:39 hmm 00:16:42 hi fizzie 00:21:21 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 00:24:27 :\ 00:38:37 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:53:09 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:06:31 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:40:23 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 02:16:16 -!- kerlobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:23:58 -!- _0x44 has joined. 02:35:32 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 03:01:58 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:15:22 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:06:47 I want to run kerlobot on Normish. 05:07:15 -!- MizardX- has joined. 05:07:17 -!- MizardX has quit (Nick collision from services.). 05:07:19 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 05:08:30 -!- Slereah2 has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:08:30 -!- Leonidas has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:09:01 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 05:09:01 -!- Leonidas has joined. 05:09:37 -!- _0x44 has quit. 05:13:08 -!- oklopol has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:13:08 -!- sebbu has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:13:08 -!- pikhq has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:15:14 * kerlo fails 05:15:17 Oh well. 05:23:19 -!- oklopol has joined. 05:23:19 -!- sebbu has joined. 05:23:19 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:56:16 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 06:15:52 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:42:47 ais523: it implies that [ is not a bracket ||| ais523: until someone writes the matching ] ||| ais523: and that's a ridiculous interpretation <<< s/ridiculous/awesome/ 06:44:00 ehird: I think they're more of an authority than you... <<< what did you mean by this? that they have the authority to decide [ isn't a bracket? 06:45:06 kerlo: If a normal person, upon being given the sentence "The (quick) brown fox jumps over the (lazy) dog" and an instruction to determine how many words are between parentheses, might say "two" rather than "seven", then the good interpretation is acceptable. <<< i'd assume "in parenthesis" if you'd meant the words in parens, would say 5 too 06:48:30 o 06:48:30 o 06:49:00 because i don't know the cutoff, and because things i say matter, i'm going to resay half of that latter sentence. 06:49:01 , might say "two" rather than "seven", then the good interpretation is acceptable. <<< i'd assume "in parenthesis" if you'd meant the words in parens, would say 5 too 06:49:22 and then the o's again, obviously 06:49:22 o 06:49:22 o 06:55:03 also if someone then said "no no not between the paren groups, i mean between the actual parenthesis characters", i'd be like oh it's a trick, let's see, oh, 7, right. 06:56:09 But, you might not understand how to write a program in FORTAVM if you aren't a real programmer, but someone can make other graphical interfaces as well to program it if you want to. <<< and the rest of the sentence makes it clear what he means 06:56:57 need to gooo 06:57:04 goo all around 06:57:05 -> 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:28:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 08:36:39 * ski__ stares blankly 08:37:11 how's that working for you 09:24:56 -!- MizardX has quit ("reboot"). 09:31:14 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:31:19 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:04:46 -!- oklopol has joined. 10:07:01 oklopol, ais523: it implies that [ is not a bracket ||| ais523: until someone writes the matching ] ||| ais523: and that's a ridiculous interpretation <<< s/ridiculous/awesome/ <-- I can't find that in my logs, when is it from? 11:16:35 around Wed Feb 11 00:00 2009 CET 11:17:54 about 12h 18m ago 12:46:31 MizardX: why would you interpret that correctly, when you could just as well misinterpret it to ask when my message was sent? 12:46:36 just wondering. 12:48:50 Since he copied it, he shuld know from where. What is not apperant is when the quoted lines where sent. 12:49:15 but 12:49:21 umm 12:49:22 :< 12:50:50 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 12:50:53 Anyway, I just searched for a substring of that in the logs, and found just that exact message, and the quoted lines from a while ago. 12:59:27 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:20:51 But the possibilities for intentionally misinterpreting it were there, and you senselessly wasted them! 13:22:30 yes! 13:46:57 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:58:01 "According to Arnold Kim, in the latest Snow Leopard seed QuickTime Pro features are baked right in to regular old QuickTime, just like they should have been all along." 13:58:12 Did it take Apple that long to realise that QuickTime "Pro" was a laughing stock? 13:58:13 Sheesh. 14:00:30 -!- _0x44 has joined. 14:00:55 04:46:31 MizardX: why would you interpret that correctly, when you could just as well misinterpret it to ask when my message was sent? 14:00:56 04:46:36 just wondering. 14:01:00 he is not awesome enough. duh. 14:08:41 -!- impomatic has joined. 14:08:50 Greetings... :-) 14:11:49 There's an anonymous comment on my blog with the code for a BF Joust warrior that scores 277 (of a possible 300) - http://tr.im/frhp 14:33:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:53:37 what does GL_2(R) mean 14:54:02 should be something trivial from linear algebra 14:54:06 i just don't remember what. 14:54:41 Lie Group? 14:55:26 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit). 14:56:00 found it 14:56:03 thanks 14:56:20 i think GL_2(R) is just an example of a lie group 14:57:29 -!- jix has joined. 15:38:43 Hm, interesting.. 15:41:57 "Be warned that the code 16, when used as the destination of a mapping, actually causes a kernel panic on keypress -— as I’ve found out the hard way. " 15:42:01 I am going to map 15:42:02 "End" to that 15:45:02 * ehird remaps [] to () and vise versa 15:46:49 sheesh, SBCL is ridiculously fast 15:53:57 oh man, emacs gets like 50x better when you disable the beep 15:58:58 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:03:09 -!- gzou2000 has joined. 16:10:54 #macosx: Masters of stating the really fucking useless obvious. http://pastie.org/386081.txt?key=ur8hitumxmju7heqzjkong 16:22:49 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:25:26 CL-USER> (expt (exp 1) (* pi (complex 0 1))) 16:25:27 #C(-0.9999999999999825d0 1.8725351415038922d-7) 16:25:34 One day I will find a language that does this properly. 16:30:52 any language that knows math 16:31:11 oklopol: what does J say 16:31:18 the same ofc 16:31:26 well 16:31:41 any language that doesn't get euler's identity right is worthless. 16:31:43 doesn't look like the exact same wrong result, but should be the same operations 16:31:48 umm... yeah sure 16:31:50 :) 16:32:05 oklopol: why do you LIE 16:32:55 python gives the exact same wrong result 16:33:19 what about JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ 16:33:21 anyway the problem is while j knows its rationals, it doesn't know anything about reals, not even the nice ones. 16:33:32 ehird: i tried before saying anything 16:33:32 o 16:33:34 j is dum 16:33:38 because i was like J CAN SO DO THAT 16:33:43 but then i realized 16:33:44 even haskell gets it wrong 16:33:45 why could it 16:33:55 oklopol: well why couldn't it, it could just hardcode it. 16:34:22 i think of haskell as a pretty low-level language, not sure why, maybe it's the bounded integers exist thing 16:34:36 whut 16:34:40 haskell is really high level :| 16:34:50 plus nobody likes/uses the bounded integeeeeeeers 16:35:40 i'm not sure why it feels low-level, but for some reason j feels higher-level to me, just less sophisticated. 16:35:50 do realize this has nothing to do with reason 16:35:55 have you tried mathematica 16:36:04 i have a hunch it gets it right :) 16:36:30 (if you do it right, that is, it probably does float stuff too) 16:36:36 * ehird triez it 16:37:46 FIRST ATTEMPT: 16:37:47 In[10]:= (E ** (I Pi)) + 1 16:37:48 Out[10]= 1 + E ** (I \[Pi]) 16:37:59 SECOND: 16:38:00 In[11]:= N[(E ** (I Pi)) + 1] 16:38:01 Out[11]= 1. + 2.71828 ** (0. + 3.14159 I) 16:38:06 how lovely and USELESS 16:38:19 I WANT A NUMBER, MATHEMATICA 16:38:21 A FUCKING NUMBER 16:39:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:39:12 hello ais523 16:39:15 i hate mathematica now. 16:39:24 16:38 FIRST ATTEMPT: 16:39:25 16:38 In[10]:= (E ** (I Pi)) + 1 16:39:26 16:38 Out[10]= 1 + E ** (I \[Pi]) 16:39:27 16:38 SECOND: 16:39:29 16:38 In[11]:= N[(E ** (I Pi)) + 1] 16:39:31 16:38 Out[11]= 1. + 2.71828 ** (0. + 3.14159 I) 16:39:32 god i hate excel 16:39:33 16:38 how lovely and USELESS 16:39:43 what does excel say 16:39:56 (We're putting euler's identity into a bunch of calculamators to see how they handle it) 16:40:09 i try to get a function from the list, and it says "btw this here formula isn't finished yet, so there's a parse error, why not start over?" 16:40:14 ehird: mathematica's all pattern matching, so it fails on anything that hasn't been coded into it 16:40:17 and you know 16:40:19 erases it. 16:40:23 ais523: youve said 16:40:27 but how come N[] didn't work 16:40:47 % bc 16:40:48 (e^(i*pi))+1 16:40:49 2 16:42:17 hmm right 16:42:20 excel doesn't know complexes 16:42:27 excel is too UNCOMPLEX. 16:42:33 python: 16:42:33 >>> exp(1) ** (pi * 1j) 16:42:34 (-1+1.2246467991473532e-16j) 16:42:44 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:43:06 ; SLIME 2006-04-20 16:43:07 i'm not sure how i managed to forget pressing the function list button like 10 times. 16:43:08 (^1)^0j1p1 16:43:08 _1j1.22465e_16 16:43:09 CL-USER> (defun calculate-e-to-the-power-of-i-times-pi-plus-one () 16:43:09 0) 16:43:09 CALCULATE-E-TO-THE-POWER-OF-I-TIMES-PI-PLUS-ONE 16:43:11 CL-USER> (calculate-e-to-the-power-of-i-times-pi-plus-one) 16:43:13 0 16:43:15 Fuck yeah common lisp 16:43:16 j = python 16:43:37 well 16:43:39 ^0j1p1 of course 16:43:44 i just mentally copied what you did 16:43:59 :D 16:44:05 (expt (exp 1) (* pi (complex 0 1))) = (exp (* pi (complex 0 1))) ofc 16:44:19 yah indeed 16:44:20 CL-USER> (exp (* pi (complex 0 1))) 16:44:21 #C(-1.0d0 1.2246063538223773d-16) 16:44:28 oklopol: how come you think in common lisp 16:44:29 :D 16:45:09 that one i thought in math 16:45:39 so you know trigonometry, huh, ehird 16:45:59 oklopol: stop mocking me :P 16:46:06 actually 16:46:11 i was more like asking 16:46:18 if you actually knew what that identity means 16:46:29 it means euler had some awesome drugs. 16:46:33 because while it's trivial, it would mean you know at least some basic math 16:46:36 right 16:46:41 perfect answer :P 16:46:42 because while it's trivial, it would mean you know at least some basic math 16:46:44 haha fuck you :D 16:47:26 well it *is* trivial, after you know the nontrivial stuff it's built on :P 16:47:54 hmm why do I like common lisp 16:47:55 it sucks 16:47:56 :\ 16:48:12 :\ 16:48:17 ... well it's lisp, and it's really fucking fast 16:48:23 and emacs+slime kind of reminds me of lisp machines. 16:48:38 -!- _0x44 has left (?). 16:48:47 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:48:54 hi miggey. 16:49:06 do you like lisp machines? 16:49:24 who doesn't 16:49:29 even other language fanatics like lisp machines 16:49:31 so these games where you're like a hacker and you know try to hack stuff, they exist right? 16:49:38 because they can implement their own language on top of lisp. 16:49:42 oklopol: see: Uplink 16:49:45 because i was thinking making rootquest. 16:49:52 hahaa 16:49:52 no not like uplink 16:50:05 more like virtual machine, try to hack to root on it 16:50:13 iirc that exists 16:50:24 yes, it's called a virtual machine 16:50:36 just grab any OS you like, and try to hack it 16:50:39 :) 16:50:43 that's a bit different 16:50:48 i recommend DOS 16:50:49 :P 16:50:59 DOS would be very hard to hack from the outside 16:51:03 and do realize i don't actually believe you can leave loopholes in code except on purpose 16:51:03 given that it has no clue how to open ports 16:51:13 ais523: erm, DOS has 0 security 16:51:16 because i'm a lunatic, as you should know. 16:51:21 ehird: yes, but also 0 network capability 16:51:25 without third-party software 16:51:37 so? 16:51:38 so you can put anything you like in the network cable, it'll just go la la la I can't hear you 16:51:43 you're using a virtual machine 16:51:48 you have physical access 16:51:50 game over 16:51:52 for any system 16:52:29 outside = via network, usually 16:52:35 well true 16:52:35 *from the outside 16:53:28 but anyway, the problem with rootquest is while it's simple to implement, it might take a while to make a virtual os in python, and i don't really have any tie 16:53:29 *time 16:53:36 it's just i have tons of ideas for loopholes! 16:53:42 I hate LOOP 16:53:45 CL-USER> (defun range (start end) 16:53:46 (loop for i from start below end collect i)) 16:53:51 that is so un lisp. 16:54:01 they are cunning, although admittedly the coolest holes are stolen from actual systems 16:54:14 like wut 16:54:52 yes it's not the prettiest thingy 16:55:19 I want acooke to release his malbolge geneticizer 16:56:02 http://www.acooke.org/ that's one dense home page 16:56:30 wow cool 16:56:56 that's how it should be done, when you add content, just find a way to fit it on the same page 16:56:56 ps. [note added later] i deleted the lisp code when updating the OS on my computer. before that i had generated a properly punctuated "Hello world", but never saved the code. so i guess this will remain the only non-trivial malbolge program.... 16:56:58 agh 16:57:00 :( 16:57:21 oklopol: ps you should remap [ to (, ] to ) and vise-versa, it's awesome 16:57:29 three tap smilies. lisp. 16:57:36 will remain the only non-trivial malbolge program? 16:57:57 wait i don't understand. 16:57:59 that was written in like 2003 dood 16:58:04 map [->( and ]->) 16:58:06 before anyone else wrote a program in malbolge 16:58:07 what 16:58:16 oklopol: you know how typing [ and ] is one keypress 16:58:19 but ( and ) need shift? 16:58:22 yeah i know, well i guess i didn't, but you know i know now that you told me. 16:58:23 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 16:58:25 swap () and [] 16:58:27 it's awesome. 16:58:45 -!- gzou2000 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:58:46 i'm assuming qwerty here. you probably use FINNVAK or something 16:59:02 [ and ] need shift too. do realize our virtual mouths have a different tooth structure 16:59:15 ah. 16:59:20 what doesn't need shit i mean shift 16:59:28 they don't need shift in my palmtop 16:59:37 do {} need shift 16:59:39 well. umm. 16:59:43 everything needs shift :< 16:59:47 even <>? 16:59:52 <.,-'+´¨ 16:59:57 your life must sck :[ 16:59:58 those i can get without shifting 16:59:59 suck :{ 17:00:01 suck :( 17:00:05 I have to get used to this 17:00:14 oklopol: i guess > = shift- yes 17:00:27 -!- gzou2000 has joined. 17:01:39 i love how SLIME does an animation when you start itu p 17:03:44 -!- gzou20001 has joined. 17:04:40 -!- gzou20001 has left (?). 17:08:20 -!- gzou2000 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:11:47 oklopol: is oklotalk dead? you seem to like j more now 17:11:57 :D 17:12:32 yes j replaced it completely, sorry, it's gone. 17:13:07 oklopol: are you sure :< 17:13:12 not entirely sure 17:13:16 just somewhat 17:13:21 CL-USER> (setq googolplex (expt 10 googol)) 17:13:26 *hangs* 17:13:31 why won't my grades come to me 17:13:33 can j do THAT 17:14:01 i have five grades pending atm 17:14:18 10^10^100 17:14:19 _ 17:14:29 j kind of has an infinity fetish 17:14:33 oklopol: j's integers are bounded yknow 17:14:35 it doesn't have bignums 17:14:39 did you know that? 17:14:44 i did not :| 17:14:50 well 17:14:54 in fact i did 17:14:54 oklopol: enter 9999999999999(lots of 9s here) 17:14:55 hit enter 17:14:56 see _ 17:14:57 cry 17:15:02 i just didn't, like, understand it 17:15:10 i mean 10^10^100=inf already says that 17:15:14 was it too traumatic :< 17:15:14 oh but. 17:15:27 fuck. 17:15:27 10^10^x:100 17:15:27 |limit error 17:15:27 | 10 ^10^x:100 17:15:44 oklopol: oklotalk back on the cards again? :D 17:16:00 yeah, i put it back on my todo list just now 17:16:05 hah 17:16:06 *haha 17:16:29 but, time to prove my algebra is boolean now 17:16:36 ~> 17:16:44 (five fucking courses) 17:16:48 (:|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||) 17:16:53 :< 17:16:55 byee 17:19:02 ais523: do you like lisp? 17:19:05 common lisp that is 17:19:18 it depends on what you mean by "like" 17:19:21 I'm highly impressed by it 17:19:38 I think it was an excellent idea 17:19:41 and a great language at the time 17:19:45 but not today? 17:19:52 I also think that nowadays, various lisp-based languages have overtaken the original 17:19:58 still a great idea, though 17:20:01 also, common lisp was circa 1980s FYI 17:20:09 yep, pretty old 17:20:16 so you think lisp derivatives > lisp? 17:20:22 not all of them 17:20:24 but some of them are better 17:20:30 like 17:20:46 well, technically prolog is a lisp derivative 17:20:57 you think prolog is better than lisp? 17:20:59 weirdo. 17:21:08 and most functional languages were at least inspired by Lisp 17:21:13 WOO HOO LEOPARD DOWNLOADED 17:21:15 \ o / 17:21:23 I think Haskell was indirectly inspired by it, for instance, even though they aren't all that similar 17:21:32 very indirectl 17:21:33 y 17:22:10 via Miranda via ML via ISWIM 17:22:14 and none of them actually were based on lisp 17:22:16 just in the same genre 17:22:23 in conclusion, haskell has almost nothing to do with lisp 17:22:38 well, many of them would never have been come up with if their authors hadn't seen lisp 17:22:52 I mean, even Underload was inspired by Lisp to some extent 17:22:56 the whole 17:22:57 eval 17:22:59 thing 17:23:04 hi comex 17:28:29 * ehird burnz leopard 17:28:36 * ehird mauled by peta 17:29:00 I would be so amused if Apple were set on by animal rights activists who missed the fact that the version names were just codenames 17:29:17 "New Leopard mac!" 17:29:19 "omg fur is murder" 17:34:27 CL-USER> (defun calculate-epsilon (&optional (current 1.0)) 17:34:27 (if (= (+ 1.0 (/ current 2.0)) 1.0) 17:34:29 current 17:34:31 (calculate-epsilon (/ current 2.0)))) 17:34:33 CALCULATE-EPSILON 17:34:35 CL-USER> (calculate-epsilon) 17:34:37 1.1920929e-7 17:34:39 CL-USER> (format t "~f" (calculate-epsilon)) 17:34:41 0.00000011920929 17:34:43 NIL 17:34:45 cool stuff 17:35:18 ah, keep halving a number x until 1+x is indistinguishable from 1 17:36:03 yep 17:36:08 the floating point machine epsilon 17:36:16 i.e. "smallest number greater than zero" 17:36:26 except not really 17:36:31 since comparisons are handled differently 17:36:43 no, it's the smallest number that makes a difference to 1 17:36:47 well, yes 17:36:50 the smallest number that makes a difference to 10 is 10 times as large 17:36:56 yes 17:36:57 due to the way floating-point works 17:37:02 floating point is weird-ass 17:37:19 I'd never use it for anything serious tbh 17:41:58 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 18:13:49 LEOPARD BURNED! 18:13:54 See you guys post upgrade 18:14:05 I hope it goes more smoothly than my average upgrade 18:25:12 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:44:24 -!- gzou2000 has joined. 18:51:26 Ran in to some trouble, :[ 18:51:28 *:( 18:51:32 Let's try that again... 18:51:34 what went wrong? 18:54:41 ais523: It displayed a warning sign on my tiger drive and said I had to reformat the drive so it could boot from it before installation. 18:54:47 Except it was already in the right format. 18:54:55 strange... 18:55:03 So now I'll ask #macosx wtf happened. 18:59:09 ugh, #macosx is so irritating 18:59:17 people just talk about boring life crap and ignore all questions 18:59:24 get a fucking social channel 18:59:33 hmm... my computer's busy updating dpkg, it always amuses me when that happens 19:00:21 1.1920929e-7 corresponds with 23 bit mantissa. (+ 8 bit exponent and 1 bit sign = 32 bit IEEE float) 19:02:10 <#macosx> Blah blah blah fires in australia fires in australia fires in australia fires in australia fires in australia fires in australia fires in australia what's mac os x? 19:02:15 >:| 19:03:20 * ehird consults on Olde Wise Oracle Apple.com 19:03:40 0 results found for 'reformat leopard install' 19:04:10 Only installation option may be Erase and Install <-- that, I think 19:04:21 When installing Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard, the only available installation option may be Erase and Install. An alert may appear during installation, such as "You can not install mac os x on this volume with out changing your installation settings...". 19:04:22 YES, that 19:04:37 Use Disk Utility from the Leopard installation DVD to verify and repair the destination drive (choose it from the Utilities menu while started from the Leopard DVD). 19:04:38 Grrrr 19:04:40 I did that 19:05:39 Let's try it anyway 19:06:35 LET'S GOOOOOOO 19:06:42 Bye guys breaking my machine --------> 19:10:24 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:32:39 -!- gzou2000 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:34:48 -!- olsner has joined. 19:36:39 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:48:11 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 19:49:11 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 19:49:12 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 21:45:30 -!- ehirddit has joined. 21:45:37 Leopard is w o w. 21:45:50 This is _excellent_. 21:46:00 Hooray. 21:46:03 hi 21:46:05 it worked? 21:46:17 Yep. All upgraded. 21:46:35 All my settings and files are technically gone, but I'll fish out what I need from /Previous Systems/. 21:48:15 This is nice. Okay. Better get stuff I need set up. 21:49:06 Hmm, Time Machine, should set that up sometime. 21:49:19 Although not backing up has worked fine for however many years I've been using computers. 21:50:32 ... it thinks I live in Cardiff. 21:53:07 iChat still doesn't do MSN. So, Adium download go. 21:53:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:54:40 "“Adium” is an application which was downloaded from the Internet. Are you sure you want to open it?" 21:54:42 Umm, yes. 21:56:56 Think I'll give Mail.app another try. Maybe they made it less crap. 21:57:26 It is far worse than gmail. 21:57:27 oh, the middle button is at the default of open dashboard. I almost forgot how retarded that default was. 21:57:34 lament: thought so. 21:57:38 gmail's a bit slow though. 21:57:43 so's Mail.app. 21:58:06 Is it? I never had that. 21:58:28 search is very slow with a couple thousand messages in your inbox 21:58:46 ah. I mostly search the Agora/B mailboxes and they have like 7,000 messages each 22:00:31 lament: is time machine good? 22:00:45 never tried it 22:00:48 time machine's just a good interface to one of the tried-and-true backup methods, I think 22:01:02 good interface is almost everything 22:01:02 it's basically rsync with a less insane syntax, which is needed 22:01:08 ais523: pretty much 22:01:14 it just scans the HD every 5 minutes or so 22:01:19 and transfers a diff to an external HD 22:01:27 then integrates with a bunch of apps to let you drag & drop from the past 22:03:14 It only took 30 minutes to install, BTW. 22:03:21 The problem was I think I didn't have enough free space on the disk. 22:03:31 -!- comex has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:03:33 So I had to expand it and then it let me install. 22:03:42 -!- comex has joined. 22:03:47 wb comex 22:04:35 Mibbit is so ugly. 22:04:50 So is your FACE! 22:05:03 :( 22:10:21 So! 22:13:47 Hrm, it seems all they did to Mail was make it look prettier. 22:13:49 How disappointing. 22:14:37 Wonder how you restore the iTunes library. 22:16:39 Can't copy my music because there's not enough free space x_x 22:16:45 * ehirddit deletes the OS and crap from old system 22:17:46 Hrm. 22:19:42 Grr. That didn't work. 22:20:57 That did. Good. 22:26:34 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:28:16 I should get an IRC client. 22:32:13 * ehirddit fishes out textmate serial from old HD 22:32:56 If only it were that simple. 22:34:16 Meh, it'll be in my email. 22:34:19 Gmail search, go! 22:34:42 T'was easy, that. 22:37:38 yay, textmate 22:42:15 I can tell you're all highly interested. 22:47:09 I'ma get myself a proper IRC client. 22:47:59 My computer has no IRC client, I believe. 22:48:10 kerlo: does it have telnet? 22:48:11 Oh, it has ChatZilla, which I don't use. 22:48:18 Yes, it has telnet. 22:49:14 Let's give Linkinus a try, maybe it's less crashy these days. 22:49:15 HOKAY. 22:49:20 “Linkinus” is an application which was downloaded from the Internet. Are you sure you want to open it? 22:49:24 This will get annoying quick. 22:49:32 I should disable it or something. 22:49:43 --> 22:49:44 -!- ehirddit has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 22:55:26 Helllooooooooooo! 22:55:32 :) 22:55:44 ais523? Hellloooooo? Anyone? 22:56:03 hi 22:56:14 * ais523 was wondering about staying silent to see ehird get increasingly more frantic 22:56:27 :D 22:57:21 Yes, Linkinus does seem to work much nicer on Leopard. 22:57:48 OK, that's IM, IRC and editing sorted out. 23:00:06 -!- ais523 has quit. 23:12:04 fungot: Hii 23:12:05 ehird: group located on or off), 23:20:24 fungot 23:20:25 comex: when a player: in any way grant legal status to that office. 23:22:35 http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/winme_b3_42.gif 23:22:41 Click that link and you can now cry! 23:22:48 ^style 23:22:48 Available: agora* alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 23:22:49 ^style irc 23:22:50 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 23:25:56 Spaces are nice. Now I have to have 4 times as much stuff to die. 23:26:46 -!- Corun has joined. 23:26:52 Hi Corun! 23:28:19 Bye Corun. 23:30:48 Hai 23:33:10 fungot. 23:33:11 comex: http://mumble.net/campbell/ scheme/ plt/ collects/ net/ ipv4/ tcp_ecn.) 23:37:08 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:37:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:44:53 "Recently i wrote my own operating system (POPS) and reinvented the wheel invented by Bill Gates many years ago…" 23:45:54 Bill Gates invented the wheel? 23:46:03 Yes. Also, operating systems. 23:47:07 Bad idea, he had it sweet with the wheel 23:47:14 But now everyone blames him for windows. 23:51:02 maybe he's talking about crappy operating systems? 23:51:21 although i guess gates didn't invent those either 23:51:27 Heh. 23:53:26 t klama klama klama klama klama zo si si 23:53:34 Oops. 23:53:35 no parse 23:54:37 "zo si si" is confusing. 23:54:50 The final "si" erases "zo si". 23:55:18 Wait, I think it only erases the "si" before it. 23:55:58 This is the important part: in "zo si", the "si" is denatured. 23:56:02 => confusing 23:56:04 Yeah. 23:56:27 i mean 23:57:11 in fact i just don't know how the erasers work regarding pedantic grammar treatment 23:58:57 After you've lexed a sentence, the first thing you do is handle zoi, and the second thing you do is handle zo. 2009-02-12: 00:04:30 Question: 00:04:39 Does "Code" fall under "Documents"? I don't think so. 00:04:45 I'm glad we agree. 00:06:01 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 00:11:40 -!- olsner has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:21:43 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:44:46 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 01:11:50 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:37:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 01:38:51 -!- SchrodingersCat has joined. 01:39:08 -!- SchrodingersCat has left (?). 02:09:09 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:28:27 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 03:21:03 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:57:35 -!- chuck has joined. 04:45:09 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:45:23 Power outages RULE 04:45:37 Lawlz. 05:05:15 Bye all 05:06:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:04:13 -!- Dewio has joined. 06:16:59 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 07:40:37 does anyone run unlambda here? 07:47:19 Slereah2: CAN YOU LINK ME TO A PIRRRRRRRRATED TO MOCK A MOCKINGBIRD I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT 07:54:58 looking at it from google, i may have misunderstood the kind of book it is. 07:56:42 oh, two-part book, second part cl, i see i see 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:21 Closest torrent I find is "To kill a mockingbird", a crime drama movie from 1962. 08:01:45 yeah 08:02:05 closest i found to the book was google's version, which was the part just before combinators 08:02:31 i want to combinator! :< 08:02:55 of course i could probably get the same pleasure from just memorizing the combinator birds 08:03:03 maybe i'll do that this weekend 08:03:14 * oklopol dancessss 08:03:34 anyway U ~> 08:16:48 http://pici.se/363479/ 08:23:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 08:41:15 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 08:43:13 -!- Deewiant has joined. 09:27:31 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:32:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:38:20 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:02:26 The risk adjusted net present value of unicorns is basically 0 because the risk of their not existing is close to 1. 11:45:26 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:10:38 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:54:28 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 12:55:38 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:01:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:01:54 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:03:26 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 13:05:16 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:05:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 13:05:28 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to CallForJudgement. 13:23:54 -!- CallForJudgement has quit. 13:24:05 -!- CallForJudgement has joined. 13:24:30 -!- CallForJudgement has changed nick to ais523. 13:33:41 hi! 13:34:14 [13:32:49] [07:14:53] Hey...I run a site called Rosetta Code, and I was reviewing one of the pages there. There's a strange bit of text in one of the J examples, and I can't tell if it's normal output or vandalism. 13:34:14 [13:32:49] [07:15:22] http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Character_code#J 13:34:24 [13:32:49] [07:15:57] At the bottom of the second code block, the string "cdefghijklm" looks suspiciously like someone pounding on the home row. 13:34:25 [13:32:49] [07:16:37] I'm almost certain it's in error, but I have a hard time reading J to be sure. 13:34:26 -- jsoftware 13:35:08 hi ehird 13:35:10 hi 13:35:39 and I love that, just like if someone vandalised TECO probably nobody would ever know 13:35:46 unless it was well-commented 13:36:21 it wsa actually the correct output :D 13:36:29 even better 13:36:31 [13:32:49] [07:45:14] shortc|laptop: that's not the home row, that's eleven characters starting with code 99 13:36:32 [13:32:49] [07:45:32] doh. 13:36:33 [13:32:49] [07:45:40] That's what I get for doing this stuff at 3AM. 13:36:34 [13:32:49] [07:45:45] Thanks for the double-check. :-) 13:36:40 I noticed it wasn't the home row, too 13:36:45 although it's close 13:38:54 Uh oh, I crashed Safari... 13:38:58 how? 13:39:08 Well, it was on Gmail. 13:39:20 Probably I triggered some weird JS codepath that made it busy-loop. 13:39:43 Gmail saved my draft, anyway/ 13:43:50 Hmm. I hope Time Machine compresses backups. 13:44:05 Even with a 1TB backup drive, I have like 150GB of stuff on here. 13:44:22 ais523, btw I realised it wasn't basically a rsync frontend 13:44:29 because rsync can't both do --update and also store the old version 13:44:36 ah, ok 13:44:38 i.e., it can't just store what's changed in a new section 13:44:47 (with, I presume, occasional full snapshots) 13:44:53 and I'm pretty sure that there's at least one common open source backup program that can, I forget which one 13:45:10 yes, almost certainly, it's a rather obvious idea 13:48:17 one silly gripe: the 3d dock is inaccurate, from a physics point of view, and it breaks the perspective guidelines (how is the preview two-photos icon standing by a corner of the photo?) 13:48:18 http://turbomilk.com/blog/cookbook/criticism/physics_still_matter_even_with_special_effects/ 13:48:39 to get it right you'd need variations of every icon for (position in dock, length of dock) 13:48:41 :D 13:51:41 nah, you just need 3D icons 13:51:53 then you can project them to the right perspective 13:52:04 that too 13:52:10 but I think I prefer the infinite pngs 13:52:18 maybe run a program with that tuple as the argument 13:52:21 and make it output a png 13:54:24 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:54:45 DNS over HTTP over UDP. 13:54:47 Dis-CUSS. 13:55:23 why the HTTP? 13:55:32 come to think of it, that's as stupid as BGP over TCP 13:56:19 ais523: because HTTP solves every problem, including finding the IP of a domain to contact it over HTTP. 13:56:47 also, who even suggested that? and why? 13:56:56 I did. And because my brain is currently in wtf mode. 13:57:08 you should look up BGP, some time 13:57:23 it's a routing protocol designed to be politically inoffensive rather than good 13:57:57 basically, it's designed to make sure traffic gets from one bit of the internet to another despite the various networks en route all disagreeing about which way the packet should go 13:58:34 hah 13:58:35 ehird@rutian:/home/bsmnt/python_chroot/bot$ sudo rm -r scripts 13:58:36 rm: cannot remove directory `scripts': Device or resource busy 13:58:38 ^ fuck the what 13:58:51 (I'm removing bsmnt_bot because I'm too lazy to get it working without reconnecting and meh) 13:58:52 ehird: is something cded into that directory? 13:58:58 ais523: maybe. 13:59:08 daemons are supposed to cd / for that reason 13:59:27 not that I can tell though 13:59:32 how can I --really-force 13:59:45 kill the process that's in that directory 13:59:53 i don't know which 13:59:58 there's some easy way to find out 14:00:04 lsof | grep would work, probably 14:00:04 how helpful :P 14:00:07 don't have lsof 14:00:14 i _could_ install it :P 14:00:18 how do you not have lsof? 14:00:28 this is a base server install, it doesn't even have man(1) 14:00:44 (I'm pretty sure that violates POSIX) 14:00:52 ls -l /proc/*/cwd | grep 14:00:54 ehird@rutian:/home/bsmnt/python_chroot/bot$ lsof | grep scripts 14:00:54 ehird@rutian:/home/bsmnt/python_chroot/bot$ 14:00:54 in that case 14:01:33 also, you mean cat 14:01:43 nope, cwd is a symlink 14:01:51 so you have to dereference it somehow 14:02:15 you probably don't have readlink due to being on a server, so you either need the cd pwd trick in a loop, or ls 14:02:33 ah 14:02:39 "Time Machine saves the hourly backups for the past 24 hours, daily backups for the past month, and weekly backups for everything older than a month." 14:02:44 hmm, I thought it stored backups forever 14:02:57 it does, just not all of them 14:03:05 based on that 14:03:18 right 14:03:31 did the proc/*/cwd trick help? 14:03:36 no, I pasted the lsof output 14:03:42 [14:00:53] ehird@rutian:/home/bsmnt/python_chroot/bot$ lsof | grep scripts 14:03:42 [14:00:53] ehird@rutian:/home/bsmnt/python_chroot/bot$ 14:03:51 oh, you need to sudo it if it's running as a different user 14:03:54 oh 14:03:54 "Time Machine creates links to any unchanged files, so when you travel back in time you see the entire contents of your Mac on a given day." <- cute trick 14:04:05 yep, hardlink backups have been around for ages 14:04:10 yeah 14:04:32 ehird@rutian:/home/bsmnt/python_chroot/bot$ sudo lsof | grep scripts 14:04:32 ehird@rutian:/home/bsmnt/python_chroot/bot$ 14:05:07 Backing up to a full disk. 14:05:18 One day, no matter how large your backup drive is, it will run out of space. And Time Machine has an action plan. It alerts you that it will start deleting previous backups, oldest first. Before it deletes any backup, Time Machine copies files that might be needed to fully restore your disk for every remaining backup. (Moral of the story: The larger the drive, the farther back in time you can back up.) 14:05:19 Non-reality distortion field translation: 14:05:29 "We will threaten you with destroying your backups so you quickly buy a new drive." 14:06:01 well, it has to do /something/ when you run out of backup space 14:06:17 the Windows solution is to delete all but the most recent backup, which is not very encouraging 14:07:08 i'd make it pop up going "Your backup drive is full. Delete some backups or get a new drive or something. Meanwhile I'll sit here doing nothing." 14:07:27 but then you wouldn't have your backups every hour 14:07:48 buy a new harddrive within an hour :P 14:08:11 I'm kind of a rabid archivist so I guess it doesn't make sense for others. 14:08:35 Still, with a 1TB external drive I think it'd take me rather a while to fill that up... 14:09:04 * ehird reboots rutian to see if the scripts dire 14:09:09 ctory will be deletable 14:09:14 ctory? 14:09:19 see previous line 14:09:22 [14:09:04] • ehird reboots rutian to see if the scripts dire 14:09:22 [14:09:08] ctory will be deletable 14:09:28 also, you could always try moving the directory into /tmp 14:09:30 then rebooting 14:09:32 the scripts folder is rather weird 14:09:33 ehird@rutian:/home/bsmnt/python_chroot/bot$ ls -lh 14:09:33 total 1.0K 14:09:33 drwxrwxrwx 2 1343 root 1.0K Feb 12 13:57 scripts 14:09:37 it's also empty 14:09:46 mv: cannot move `scripts' to `/tmp/scripts': Device or resource busy 14:09:46 even with ls -a? 14:09:58 $ ls -lah scripts 14:09:58 total 5.0K 14:09:58 drwxrwxrwx 2 1343 root 1.0K Feb 12 13:57 . 14:09:58 dr-xr-xr-x 3 1001 1001 4.0K Feb 12 13:57 .. 14:10:06 ok, that's weird 14:10:15 -!- ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating..."). 14:10:22 ... 14:11:03 -!- ehird has joined. 14:11:51 -!- ehird has quit (Client Quit). 14:12:17 I wonder what's happening to ehird? 14:13:22 -!- ehird has joined. 14:13:50 wb ehird 14:14:02 ah, your rebooting messed the bounder? 14:14:04 *bouncer? 14:14:04 hi 14:14:32 huh? 14:14:40 the bouncer runs on the server 14:14:41 you quitted IRC twice 14:14:46 did I? 14:14:47 and I thought you were rebooting the eserver 14:14:53 hm. who knows 14:15:04 <-- ehird has left this server ("Caught sigterm, terminating..."). 14:15:12 that's the message your bouncer gives when someone sigterms it 14:15:15 must have repeated a kill line from the history 14:15:21 (ctrl-r by mistake) 14:15:27 or it may hvae crashed 14:39:04 ... Time Machine will version my .git directories. That will be ... interesting. 14:41:20 Gah, I need zsh. Can't take bash any longer. 14:41:31 MacPorts or manual compile ... MacPorts. 14:41:37 you should be proficient with a range of shells, ideally 14:41:44 even csh, in case you're stuck using it 14:42:05 I can use bash, I just don't _want_ to 14:42:10 Can't use csh though, thank god. 14:42:26 the CDE computers here are tcsh by default 14:42:46 I wonder how long it took to make the Stacks in the dock fold out line the leaning tower of pisa 14:44:04 probably not all that long 14:44:12 Too much time :P 14:44:57 Can't map the URL 'file://.' to a port description file ("Could not find Portfile in /Users/ehird"). 14:44:59 vut 14:45:08 oh, I need to sync. I think. 14:45:31 oh 14:45:34 I forgot "zsh" 14:45:34 :x 14:45:45 MacPorts is written in Tcl./ 14:45:47 I wonder why. 14:47:10 configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables 14:47:15 Ah. Methinks I need the developer tools. 14:49:15 ehird: ur dum lol! 14:49:23 very 14:49:24 run df 14:50:08 bsmntbombdood: no, I don't have a C compiler 14:50:09 :P 14:50:12 is the issue 14:50:22 i mean for bsmnt bot 14:50:28 oh. 14:50:37 bit late now 14:50:43 i was asleeping 14:50:56 was scripts mounted? 14:51:00 that would explain it 14:51:08 yeah 14:51:40 i knew it was a weird directory :P 14:54:12 fuck! 14:54:19 this disc doesn't have the developer tools 14:54:25 * ehird trudges off to get it from adc 14:54:38 is it a legitimate disk? 14:54:50 no, but the problem is that it's disc 1, the install disc 14:55:00 instead of disc 2, the Things You Need To Actually Be Able To Use This disc. 14:55:56 there we go, downloading 14:56:05 holy carp it's 996MB. 14:56:12 why isn't this bundled with the os. geez. 14:56:13 that won't fit on a CD 14:56:53 ais523: OS X install disc = dual-layer DVD 14:56:58 ok 14:57:09 iirc it's about 7.5 GB used out of 8.5 14:57:12 so it would fit 14:57:31 http://tunes.org/legalese/bugroff.html <--this is even better than the WTFPL 14:58:38 although the "all lawyers suck" sentiment is stupid. 15:07:13 ais523: you've used OCaml, right? 15:07:33 yes, I'm doing a uni project with it atm 15:12:09 ais523: is it as crap as they say 15:12:10 ? 15:12:18 it has various troubles 15:12:25 the most annoying is the lack of any sort of operator overloading 15:12:32 or automatic coercion 15:12:43 in Perl, you have eq that's different from == 15:12:48 for comparing strings vs. numbers 15:12:54 that's fine, you need it as it's weakly typed 15:13:03 in C, you have / for int vs. / for float 15:13:08 which is also fine, as it's strongly typed 15:13:08 ocaml has no typeclasses right? 15:13:15 OCaml is strongly typed (without typeclasses) 15:13:15 that's why you pay homeage to slashdot all the time 15:13:17 (/.) 15:13:24 yeah that's really stupid 15:13:25 yet it requires a different operator for everything, it seems 15:13:28 and normally a cast too 15:13:41 also, it's strictly evaluated and non-pure. 15:13:47 which is also kinda stupid for a functional language. 15:13:53 it's an imperative language too 15:13:59 and an OOP language 15:14:02 it's specifically designed to be both imperative and functional 15:14:07 the OOPness I haven't learnt 15:14:15 so although I'm writing OCaml, I'm only really using Caml 15:14:18 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 15:15:02 ais523: function arguments are evaluated right to left 15:15:07 because it's efficient for stack usage 15:15:13 that's just awful in an imperative language... 15:15:18 I try not to rely on any order of evaluation 15:15:25 except the fact that a;b runs a before b 15:15:30 it's less confusing that way 15:15:42 I'll stick to Common Lisp for my functional/imperative mix. 15:18:16 ais523: is ocaml as fast as claimed? 15:18:32 it's pretty fast 15:18:40 I'm doing all sorts of ridiculous things that should be slow 15:18:52 like 15:18:56 but they're running so quickly I can't tell how fast they're running 15:19:05 and like solving a maze by random walk 15:19:10 nice 15:19:11 (or the programming equivalent) 15:19:14 what's the project? 15:19:22 compiling imperative languages into hardware 15:19:34 which has basically become compiling functional languages with some weird restrictions into hardware 15:19:43 ah right 15:19:58 ais523: what lang are you compiling? You've mentioned it, care to show e.g. factorial function? 15:20:18 well, it's a functional lang with no recursion 15:20:23 there are restrictions to make it turing-incomplete 15:20:33 ais523: so presumably you need to do an imperative loop for factorial 15:20:34 you have imperative loops instead, which are converted into tail-recursion 15:20:40 right 15:20:45 so what does factorial look like? 15:20:49 also, I'm working mostly on the intermediate representation 15:20:56 so I'd have to look up what the syntax for a loop is 15:20:56 ok 15:21:01 in the original source 15:21:07 is it basically just: 15:22:01 fun fact(n : integer) : integer; i = 1; loop (n != 0) with (n = n - 1); i *= n; end; end? 15:22:06 i.e. nothing special 15:22:13 yep, pretty much 15:22:27 what computational c lass is it? 15:22:34 bounded-storage 15:22:44 is that the most powerful sub-TC level? 15:22:48 no 15:22:54 ah, is such a concept undefined? 15:22:56 it's equivalent to finite-state-machine, which is one of the lowest 15:23:11 but it means, in practice, "something which would be TC except it doesn't have infinite memory" 15:23:22 I'm interested in nearly-TC languages, specifically, total functional programming languages 15:23:33 you know how in FP langs, all values are actually (value or _|_)? 15:23:36 where _|_ = bottom 15:23:37 e.g. 15:23:38 x = x 15:23:41 that's _|_ 15:23:44 x = error "nooooo" 15:23:46 also _|_ 15:23:57 func "a value its pattern matching doesnt handle" 15:23:59 also _|_ 15:24:00 I'm not really aware of how fixed-point languages work 15:24:05 not FP 15:24:07 functional programming 15:24:19 ah 15:24:22 anyway, a total FP language is one without _|_ 15:24:41 all pattern matches must be complete, every program halts, and there are no errors apart from with types like (Either Error Result) 15:24:55 the one I'm working with is one of those, apart from the every program halts bit 15:25:03 I've read a paper which suggests to me that you can actually make such a language useful for most tasks 15:25:09 if a program doesn't halt, it's in an infiniloop so there's no way to tell what its return value is 15:25:23 what i'm thinking about is making a combinator base like ski 15:25:27 except that you can only write total programs in 15:25:28 also, I love the way that all the data types are syntactic sugar for multiple booleans 15:25:30 apart from functions 15:25:38 that is, the machine code for a total FP lang 15:25:40 and that would be neat 15:25:51 hmm... are total FP langs necessarily reversible? 15:25:53 I'd guess no 15:25:55 no 15:25:59 f n = 0 15:26:05 bam, irreversable function 15:26:08 ah, ofc 15:26:21 although reversibility IS a nice property, 15:26:27 I'm not sure total FP + reversability would be useful at all 15:26:34 make a functional lang that compiles into BackFlip 15:26:43 just for the fun of it 15:26:52 can I just gnaw on my toenails instead? that'd be less painful :P 15:27:01 * ehird looks upb ackflip 15:27:05 eek 15:27:10 something non-2d would be easier :P 15:27:15 Unassignable, then 15:27:30 which has been proved to be compilable into backflip 15:27:35 and which is actually quite fun to write 15:28:03 One of the worst parts in XSLT is its verbosity (it's a dysfunctional purely functional language, yet building the structure for a recursive function that takes a single argument and doesn't do anything takes like 8 lines) 15:28:29 ok, Unassignable looks pretty usable 15:28:42 it's the only reversible guaranteed-termination OO lang I know of 15:28:51 Error: Target org.macports.activate returned: Image error: /opt/local/bin/zsh is being used by the active zsh-devel port. Please deactivate this port first, or use the -f flag to force the activation. 15:28:58 fuck on earthhhhhhhhhhhh 15:29:03 Archive and Install is so crap 15:29:06 it doesn't delete everything properly 15:29:09 it thinks I have stuff installed 15:29:11 ehird: where else would you expect to fuck? 15:29:15 space. duh. 15:29:28 also, fuck on earth = wtf x 1000 15:29:46 bournemouth:~ ehird$ sudo rm -rf /opt 15:29:49 that should do it 15:30:39 sure is taking a while 15:30:48 hmm... I'm not the sort of person who'd do something like that, I don't think 15:31:04 I would find it really amusing if rm was in /opt. or sudo was. 15:31:10 although that's unlikely 15:31:16 ais523: archive and install is meant to move the whole system to /Previous Systems/, then install a clean one 15:31:23 unfortunately, it didn't handle macports. 15:31:26 or some settings. 15:31:32 so it's kind of confused about what it has. 15:33:12 * ehird tells finder to calculate the size of /opt/local 15:33:17 it's taking a while to rm... 15:33:24 0, obviously, you're deleting it 15:33:30 nope 15:33:34 also why not delete /opt/local not /opt? 15:33:34 it's in the middle of deleting it 15:33:44 because /opt only contains local/ 15:33:50 ah, 2.4GB left 15:33:50 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:34:02 a lot of my installed ports are worthless anyway 15:34:08 e.g., ruby and python now come with the os 15:34:15 1.7GB left... 15:34:59 500MB... 15:35:16 200MB 15:35:35 10MB 15:35:38 bam 15:36:27 "Installing this software requires no additional space" 15:36:28 erm... 15:37:05 It is exactly 0 byte long. 15:38:23 No ports are installed. 15:38:24 hooray 15:45:05 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:47:25 ais523: I'm going to write a factorial program in Unassignable. 15:47:31 have fun 15:47:36 it is possible, right? 15:47:38 yep 15:47:45 that binary-to-decimal took me long enough, though 15:47:55 I'll just output in unary 15:48:06 using your program as the base 15:48:15 it's not output that's the problem, I suspect, it's the multiplication 15:48:22 err, why is mainloop an integer? 15:48:23 trying to reset state afterwards could be fun 15:48:28 ehird: it's a loop 15:48:36 loops can only exist as methods on integers 15:48:36 ah 15:48:39 "loop this many times" 15:48:47 and you can't change the integer during the loop 15:49:01 the general rule is that if you're inside a method of an object, you can't change, or even mention, the object itself 15:49:07 because that would be recursion, and that would be wrong 15:49:12 (X must be a power of 2). 15:49:15 ok, that_is_ an issue 15:49:24 you can work around it 15:49:32 how? 15:49:35 there's a pair of variables in my binary-to-decimal which simulate an x of 10 15:49:45 basically, you have two variables, one the power below, one the power above 15:49:47 which binary to decimal 15:49:47 say 8 and 16 15:49:54 ehird: it's the only example program I give 15:49:57 a counter which outputs in decimal 15:50:00 wrong 15:50:01 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Unassignable 15:50:05 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unassignable#Example 15:50:19 ah, the one on the talk page 15:50:24 the other one's probably a syntax example 15:50:36 its a counter 15:50:37 1 15:50:38 11 15:50:38 111 15:50:39 etc 15:50:48 ais523: can X be a variable in increment(X)? 15:50:55 nope 15:50:58 :( 15:51:01 it has to be a constant power of 2 15:51:09 although increment(1); increment(8); is legal 15:51:13 and a trivial way to increment by 9 15:51:17 ah, I've figured out how to do it 15:51:24 num->increment; 15:51:30 then that iterates othernum->increment(1) 15:51:31 or whatever 15:51:33 yes 15:51:53 incidentally, if you need multiple iterators on a single integer, and you normally do 15:52:04 get its iterator to call lots of functions, and disable all but the one you need 15:52:20 I should make a sugared version of Unassignable some day 15:52:36 integer factorial(4294967295)=4294967295; 15:52:43 and it calls a special object that just deactivates it 15:52:44 in its iterator 15:52:48 to break 15:52:54 deactivates what? 15:52:59 it does 15:53:02 factorialkiller->doyourthin 15:53:03 g 15:53:05 and factorialkiller does 15:53:10 factorial->deactivate 15:53:14 er... that's recursion 15:53:19 dog gammit 15:53:27 you can do it 15:53:31 but indirectly 15:53:35 well, that's okay, n! only iterates n times 15:53:39 the iterator, say, is three functions, a, b, and c 15:53:47 so just 15:53:59 integer factorial(6)=6; 15:53:59 integer num(6)=6; 15:53:59 integer factorial(6)=6; 15:54:00 wait, two will do, a and b 15:54:05 to calculate 6! 15:54:07 initially, a's active and b's inactive 15:54:11 a can break by activating b 15:54:23 and b increments a counter that's initially -1, and deactivates a on overflow 15:54:39 you can't activate an inactive function, or deactivate an active function, because that breaks reversibility 15:56:09 ais523: can any function take non-constant args? 15:56:10 e.g. 15:56:10 result->multiply(num); 15:56:13 if I define num 15:56:24 no, all args are constants 15:56:31 butts. 15:56:33 you can use global variables to pass args 15:56:35 yeah 15:56:56 due to no-recursion, you don't have scoping problems if you name the args after the functions 15:58:14 multiplication is hard :< 15:58:21 in unassignable that is :P 15:58:25 yes 15:58:29 since you can't really loop over two v- except... 15:58:30 yes i can 15:58:32 even addition is non-trivial 15:58:36 a += b is trivial 15:58:50 so I suppose you could just do a += b in a loop 15:59:00 you probably want to do a -= b in a loop afterwards to reset a 15:59:21 a += b is trivial? 15:59:27 no it's not 15:59:32 loop on b, incrementing a 15:59:41 yeah but you can't loop that 15:59:44 why not 15:59:44 without copying 15:59:47 and a = b is also a pain 15:59:52 because we're doing multiple iterators 15:59:52 a = b is impossible 15:59:54 andf sjfhdksfhkdfjhsdkfshfkjdf 15:59:59 reversible lang, remember 16:02:01 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:02:45 one problem: 16:02:50 wait, nevermind 16:02:58 it's not an easy language 16:03:20 ok, I've got this program working: 16:03:24 a *= b; 16:03:27 print('1' * a); 16:03:32 is there an interp? 16:03:33 to test it 16:07:48 Copied old '~/.zshrc' to '~/.zshrc.zni'. 16:07:48 *** Internal error: bad type for keymap *** 16:07:48 --- Type a key in forlorn hope --- 16:08:13 ehird: I have a compiler to C++ 16:08:19 but it doesn't enforce the no-recursion rule 16:08:22 to hand? 16:08:34 let me try to find it 16:08:38 I think I know where it is 16:10:12 ok, found it 16:10:27 it seems to be in two parts, a .c file which is the compiler in C, and a .h file which is the header for generated files in C++ 16:11:00 http://filebin.ca/hpckp/una2cpp.tgz 16:11:31 Post that URL to the wiki? 16:11:52 it'll vanish in a few hours 16:11:59 no 16:12:02 filebin links generally persist 16:12:04 it's a temporary pastebin 16:12:05 ooh, I have bsd ls(1) 16:12:06 yum yum 16:12:19 "Files will be kept in a rotating pool of space, and may be removed at any time." 16:12:25 ais523: yes, it's not actually true 16:12:28 I've never had a filebin link expire 16:12:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:12:32 so they persist until someone else pastest something big, I guess 16:13:00 beware of what thou pastest 16:13:47 /Users/ehird/Code/esolangs/unassignable/una2cpp 16:13:49 longest path evar 16:14:00 I have longer 16:14:21 Integer has invalid maximum. 16:14:24 including a complete source tree for all the packages in a uclinux distro which is about 6 directories below my home 16:14:25 the max is 4294967295 16:14:28 oh, wait 16:14:30 needs to be 4294967294 16:14:35 err, nope 16:14:37 no, the first value is probably correct 16:14:43 my guess is I wrote int rather than unsigned 16:14:44 then whydit complain 16:14:47 in the compiler 16:15:00 ;_; 16:15:04 it was a quick hack, as you can tell by the state of una2cpp.h 16:15:07 if(fscanf(in,"%lu",&templu)!=1) 16:15:07 { 16:15:07 fprintf(stderr,"Integer maximum is not a number.\n"); 16:15:07 return EXIT_FAILURE; 16:15:07 } 16:15:31 ehird: that's not the error you're getting 16:15:36 oops 16:15:44 and fscanf returns 1 if it inputs 1 input value, so it's a correct check 16:15:52 case 4294967295LU: break; 16:15:52 default: 16:15:52 fprintf(stderr,"Integer has invalid maximum.\n"); 16:16:09 so it should work... 16:16:09 interesting... 16:16:18 function main=activated; 16:16:18 integer a(4294967295)=5; 16:16:18 integer b(5)=5; 16:16:18 integer multiply(5)=5; 16:16:22 that'sthe whole declaration section 16:16:25 ...oh wait 16:16:29 5 isn't allowable 16:16:29 is it? 16:16:32 it's the 5 that's invalid 16:16:36 AAAAAAAAGH 16:16:39 that's not 2^n - 1 16:16:50 look at tenloop in my Talk:Unassignable program, though 16:16:56 that shows how to do an integer with a different maximum 16:17:03 basically, to get an int from 0 to 9 16:17:12 I had an int from 0 to 8 and an int from 0 to 16 16:17:14 wait 16:17:16 the maximum can be anything 16:17:19 I just set it to 5 16:17:20 phew 16:17:28 integer b(7)=5; is legal 16:17:33 yep 16:17:40 b and multiply never change 16:17:46 so that's fine 16:18:09 erm 16:18:11 #define CURCLASS void unatmain:: 16:18:11 run 16:18:11 { 16:18:11 multiply->loop; 16:18:12 a->loop; 16:18:12 } 16:18:18 that is not valid C, surely 16:18:19 C++ 16:18:28 look at the other #defines 16:18:36 it becomes valid C++ once you apply all of them 16:18:36 I think I'll avoid that :P 16:18:39 -!- oerjan has quit ("Reboot"). 16:18:46 #define loop floop() 16:19:14 multiply.cpp:14: warning: this decimal constant is unsigned only in ISO C90 16:19:15 lol 16:19:26 wtf 16:19:28 multiplication doesn't work 16:19:36 ais523: does the loop loop for the maximum 16:19:37 or the value 16:19:39 the value 16:19:44 very odd 16:19:49 but you mustn't change the value during the loop, or even mention it 16:19:58 My program tells me 5 * 5 = 30 16:19:58 paste your program, so I can see what's wrong with it? 16:20:08 [17:13:49] longest path evar <-- I've seen longer, it's called Windows 16:20:17 my guess is you started with 5, then added 5 to it 5 times 16:20:25 ais523: http://pastie.org/private/vvvlhnwhslor4idpdepaow 16:20:27 whereas you need to start with 0 for that to work 16:20:32 ah 16:20:33 ofc 16:20:51 yep, that was it 16:20:58 that makes things a lot more compliated, then 16:21:11 the real trouble in unassignable is resetting variables once you're done with them 16:21:20 you often have to write large parts of your program in reverse 16:23:10 works now 16:23:33 calculates 100 * 576 = 57600 16:23:34 quickly, too 16:23:36 good 16:23:41 now I can write factorial 16:23:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:23:52 for the record: 16:23:52 v 16:23:53 http://pastie.org/private/e0z6t3a9k0npupa2nk4lbq 16:24:02 err 16:24:04 it doesn't check limits 16:24:09 but whatever 16:24:10 you can fix them :P 16:24:28 * ehird just sets all limits to 4294967295 16:25:03 as for factorial, note you aren't allowed to iterate on b whilst multiplying by b 16:25:19 the easy solution here is just to get the variable you're iterating on to increase a separate loop counter 16:29:14 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:31:26 gah, my delete key is ^? but zsh wants %H 16:31:27 *^H 16:31:37 use stty to fix it? 16:31:47 no, you use zsh keybindings 16:32:04 factorial.cpp: In member function ‘virtual void unatmain::erun()’: 16:32:04 factorial.cpp:38: error: ‘class unatfactorial’ has no member named ‘fcall’ 16:32:06 vut 16:32:06 oh 16:32:08 well, it depends on what delete key you want for stdio, I suppose 16:32:28 ... 6! = 21, apparently. 16:32:43 oh, wait. 16:33:07 I should make an unassignable compiler that enforces the restrictions, really 16:33:35 wait, why on earth is it = 21... 16:34:39 ehird: 1+2+3+4+5+6 = 21 16:34:44 oh, duh. 16:34:49 lol, it's addorial 16:36:57 hmm 16:36:58 * oerjan beats ehird with a triangle |> 16:37:03 ^H does backwards delete 16:37:06 what's forward delete? 16:37:15 ^? normally 16:37:36 "^H" backward-delete-char 16:37:36 "^?" backward-delete-char 16:37:53 my terminal sends \033[3~ 16:37:56 so I guess I'll bind that 16:41:16 what's the commotion that composes this day? 16:41:26 oklopol: ehird upgrading his OS 16:41:55 I miss my old prompt. 16:41:59 Even though it was unreadabl. 16:42:01 e 16:42:03 you can restore it 16:42:06 Indeed. 16:42:12 how is he upgrading it 16:42:16 in an interesting way? 16:42:16 anyway, why aren't all your settings saved in dot files in ~? 16:42:18 oklopol: past tense 16:42:26 ais523: they are, the system was reinstalled 16:42:35 archive + install = copy old system to special directory, do clean install 16:42:57 /Previous Systems.localized/2009-02-11_1200/Users/ehird % cat .zshrc 16:43:02 ah 16:43:11 wouldn't it be usual to move your home dir over after doing that 16:43:40 yes, but I have so much rubbish in my home directory that I decided to leave it and copy on need 16:44:05 you could always copy on write 16:44:07 precmd() { print -Pn "\e]0;%n@%m:%~\a" } 16:44:07 export PS1=$(print "%{\e[33m%}")"[%n:%~] %#"$(print "%{\e[0m%}")" " 16:44:09 Home once more. 16:44:19 Yes, yellow on white is unreadable. I don't care. 16:44:48 Prompts are for feel, not usefulness. :P 16:44:53 is that some kinda sh-language? 16:44:58 oklopol: zsh 16:45:10 PS1&precmd is the hideous baby sublanguage 16:45:14 but I use command interpolation there too 16:45:19 so i can print out colours 16:45:31 i should learn more languages. 16:46:46 I should install SBCL. 16:47:07 Where would my system be without a crazy lisp compiler that has tons of hacks to make it portable so you can compile it without a bunch of annoying bootstrapping? 16:47:20 And that is really, really fast? 16:47:21 Exactly. 16:47:36 Ooh ooh, I can get the new Carbon Emacs. Oh wait, I despise emacs. 16:47:45 what, I thought you liked it 16:48:04 I tolerate it because writing Lisp or Haskell with anything else is painful 16:48:04 ehird: What does that precmd do? 16:48:16 Deewiant: puts "ehird@bournemouth:~/Code" in my titlebar 16:48:19 ehird: In particular, that print command. 16:48:37 Where does that print -P go? 16:48:54 * ehird looks for it in zshbuiltins 16:49:14 I wrote this in 2007, y'see. 16:49:27 -P Perform prompt expansion (see zshmisc(1)). 16:49:37 so that's for the %n stuff and suchlike 16:49:43 -!- oklofok has joined. 16:49:51 Oh, right, I misread 16:49:57 I was looking at 16:49:57 -p Print the arguments to the input of the coprocess. 16:50:02 And was confused 16:50:06 I love how the quotes in export PS1=$(print "%{\e[33m%}")"[%n:%~] %#"$(print "%{\e[0m%}")" " start half way through 16:50:15 because you can not quote command interpolations, so I didn't 16:50:19 can, not 16:50:20 not cannot 16:50:27 as in you can and you can also opt not to 16:51:49 carbbon emacs is from a japanese server and the server is so slooooow 16:52:24 It's probably fairly fast, it's the wires that're slow :-P 16:53:09 fuck wires. 16:53:11 I want wireless wires. 16:53:48 lasers! 16:54:00 yes. 16:54:01 lasernet. 16:54:02 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:54:12 not only is it freaking cool, on account of using lasers, it is infinitely fast. 16:54:26 because the lasers are actually light. and the computers are -1 miles apart from each other. 16:54:33 this is done by bending spacetime. 16:54:34 with lasers. 16:56:25 ^ this here sounds very very good. 16:56:56 Lasers aren't infinitely fast, ehird 16:57:04 Slereah: they are if they go BACKWARDS! 16:57:06 They are if you bend space time, moron. 16:57:17 Still no. 16:57:26 They go both backwards _and_ bend space time. 16:57:27 NOW WHAT 16:57:41 Still no. 16:57:45 Heretic. 16:57:48 You're just afraid of new science. 16:57:52 Afraid... of WHAT LIES AHEAD. 16:58:05 The Physicist has spoken 16:58:13 the physicist is a lameo. 16:58:16 ALL HAIL THE PHYSICIST! 16:58:21 hmm 16:58:21 So is your FACE 16:58:24 what ist should i be 16:58:29 we can just bend spacetime so that lasers shoot out lasers that are infinitely fast. 16:58:30 trivial 16:58:31 my face is hmm? 16:59:54 It sure is 17:00:33 % git init 17:00:33 zsh: command not found: git 17:00:36 DSHJSDFkJShdfkjsdhfkjsdfhsdf WHAAAAAAT 17:00:37 ;_; 17:00:45 yay for working package managers 17:00:54 my package manager works fine 17:00:57 I just haven't installed git 17:01:22 i was just assuming this computer was absolutely perfect out of the box 17:01:26 because I mean why wouldn't it be 17:03:22 emacs is 145mb that's just not right. 17:03:27 an editor has no right to be that big :| 17:09:31 Too many things depend on other things. 17:10:42 -!- Slereah has left (?). 17:10:52 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:13:27 oklofok: will oklotalk handle the euler identity? 17:13:46 ehird: Mathematica's probably got a command for solving the euler identity, by the way 17:14:04 ais523: I tried doing N[(equation here)] but it just made e and pi into numbers 17:14:05 you have to use things like Reduce[] or Solve[] or that sort of thing to manipulate expressions into different forms 17:14:14 N is just a numerical approximator 17:14:23 right, so it should numerically approximate the euler identity 17:14:24 you need a symbolic manipulator to solve that identity 17:14:31 ah. 17:14:35 mathematica is weird ass 17:14:37 because Mathematica operators don't do more than they're designed to do 17:15:40 -!- oerjan has quit ("Noise unbearable"). 17:15:50 my noise? :< 17:16:07 ehird: dunno. i'm a fairly discrete dude. 17:16:16 is discrete your middle name. 17:16:36 oklopol discrete ominovorol 17:16:41 is my full name 17:16:52 you lie 17:16:52 [17:16:45] oklofok has userhost n=nnscript@a91-153-121-248.elisa-laajakaista.fi and realname Ville Salo 17:17:21 that's my slave name 17:18:03 wtffff 17:18:06 git relies on gettext 17:18:09 whyy 17:18:13 I don't care if it's indirect, just ugh 17:18:17 internationalisation, obviously 17:18:23 git is english only 17:18:28 can't be by now 17:18:29 surely 17:18:42 umm, most version control systems and the like only output in english 17:18:43 as far as I know 17:18:46 anything let anywhere near a major OSS repo tends to get translated 17:19:04 actually that name is just gibberish i sometimes use to confuse people; you see this one student organization requires real names to be real names, so i made up a finnish-sounding name. 17:19:31 ais523: IMO it doesn't make sense to translate a vcs 17:19:41 you need to know english to program in most languages 17:19:47 yes, you can rote memorize a few keywords as meaningless 17:19:53 but you can do that with your VCS's terminology, too 17:20:09 e.g. Python's style guide strongly suggests that comments are in english 17:20:11 hmm... maybe git depends on gnu coreutils? 17:20:17 it's very heavily sh-based 17:20:21 it may need specific utils 17:20:30 we'll see if macports tries to install gnu coreutils 17:20:37 (I hope not, though... I like my BSD userland) 17:20:56 LC_ALL=fr_FR.utf8 cp --help outputs in French for me; LC_ALL=fr_FR.utf8 git --help doesn't 17:21:11 "Copier la SOURCE vers la DESTINATION, ou de multiples SOURCES vers un RÉPERTOIRE." 17:21:19 % LC_ALL=fr_FR.utf8 cp --help 17:21:20 cp: illegal option -- - 17:21:20 usage: cp [-R [-H | -L | -P]] [-fi | -n] [-pvX] source_file target_file 17:21:20 cp [-R [-H | -L | -P]] [-fi | -n] [-pvX] source_file ... target_directory 17:21:47 $ LC_ALL=fr_FR.utf8 gcc --help 17:21:49 Usage: gcc [options] fichier... 17:22:03 % LC_ALL=fr_FR.utf8 gcc --help 17:22:03 Usage: i686-apple-darwin9-gcc-4.0.1 [options] file... 17:22:03 Options: 17:22:03 -pass-exit-codes Exit with highest error code from a phase 17:22:05 so gcc, at least, needs gettext, or at least can use it 17:22:10 I guess Apple stripped out the translation files 17:22:24 I like having multiple languages available 17:22:34 you never know when you might want to give a guest account to someone chinese, for instance 17:24:00 I beg of you: 17:24:00 do not give this email address out 17:24:00 do not CC me on any public mailing list with this address 17:24:00 do not place this address in cleartext on any web page 17:24:12 I am so tempted to type it in here and let clog and Google be the perps, not me... 17:24:19 that's giving it out 17:24:34 ah, it's already on the interwebs it seems 17:24:36 Where'd you see that 17:24:42 http://www.nightmare.com/~rushing/new_email.html 17:24:43 i don't get the spammophobes, who doesn't like spam 17:24:49 As a service to the blind, this address reads: 17:24:52 sam@rushing.nightmare.com 17:25:34 I don't get people who get hundreds of spam messages a day 17:25:38 How can that happen :-P 17:25:52 I get hundreds of spams a day, but I never see them apart from 1 or 2 every once in a while 17:25:54 thx gmail 17:25:56 i just get the ones i've requested 17:26:03 Deewiant: register for a load of sites willy-nilly 17:26:07 (a seer, and some advertisement) 17:26:09 also, post it on the interwebs in plain text regularly 17:26:13 ehird: I have 17:26:13 ----------------------> SPAM 17:26:24 well I get more like 30 spams a day 17:26:24 still 17:26:25 I've done both hundreds of times :-P 17:26:29 if i was more popular i'd get hundreds 17:26:30 And I get less than 10 per day 17:26:54 Maybe my ISP just blocks known spam senders and that's where the bulk comes from 17:27:50 gmail has, to my knowledge, never blocked a legitimate mail, and let through less than 50 spams to my inbox since 2006 when I got this account 17:27:57 it's one great spamfilter 17:28:00 gmail has blocked several legitimate mails to my account 17:28:07 some bugzilla posts and some private mail 17:28:14 Deewiant: stop purchasing viagra 17:28:38 If I purchased viagra wouldn't that mean that it stops blocking viagra, rather than that it blocks something else? :-P 17:28:47 "private mail" 17:29:02 y'see, I was implying the nature of that private mail. as a bad joke. 17:29:04 Deewiant: umm probably it'd block the viagra 17:29:10 thank you oklofok 17:29:13 ehird: ah, right, didn't get it. 17:29:20 to get is to see 17:30:19 man that's one big slipup: 17:30:44 * ehird upload 17:30:48 Anyhoo, that's one reason why I'd like gmail to /not/ block spam 17:30:58 Deewiant: you can tell it not to 17:31:00 Since now I'm never sure whether it's blocked something it shouldn't have 17:31:07 ehird: Well, that's new 17:31:11 Settings->Filters->Create 17:31:16 Has the words: [in:spam ] 17:31:17 1, 2, or 3 years ago you couldn't :-P 17:31:18 click past the warning 17:31:32 i'm sure you can figure it out from there 17:31:42 I've had 6 spam mails the last 3 days, not too bad... 17:32:11 meh, it isn't uploading 17:32:14 ehird: Actually I can't. "[in:spam ]"? 17:32:21 Deewiant: [ ... ] = textbox 17:32:31 so type in: in:spam 17:32:47 There are five text boxes 17:32:52 And besides, it says 17:32:53 Messages in Spam and Trash will not be searched. 17:33:22 [17:31:15] Has the words: [in:spam ] 17:33:23 Has the words. 17:33:33 Also, ignore it. 17:33:43 You really should consider putting subjects and verbs in your sentences :-P 17:33:51 :< 17:33:52 Is that space relevant 17:33:56 no 17:35:06 Hm, can I forward all my existing spam somehow 17:35:30 don't forward 17:35:33 ok, i'll be more specific 17:35:45 tick never send it to spam, then click "Also apply to ..." 17:35:47 create 17:35:49 watch spam flood into inbox 17:36:26 Note: filter will not be applied to old conversations in Spam or Trash 17:36:41 why not just read the spam folder/ 17:36:48 Select: All 17:36:57 yeah what sgeo said 17:36:59 for existing ones 17:37:00 Besides, I do want it in the Spam folder, I just want to forward it to my 'real' address 17:37:01 Select all $num conversations in Spam 17:37:05 Deewiant: oh 17:37:07 then do this: 17:37:15 in:spam 17:37:23 Forward it to: [... your address ...] 17:37:26 [ ] Also apply 17:37:26 I can select all but I don't see a 'forward' button 17:37:30 ehird: yes, I did that 17:37:37 did it not work? 17:37:38 ok, then: 17:37:47 Also apply filter to 0 conversations below. 17:37:55 then your spam is empty 17:38:02 There are 499 messages there 17:38:14 screenshot your filter criteria page 17:38:34 [in:spam] in "Has the words", all else blank 17:38:42 ok, click test search 17:38:46 does it show all your spam 17:38:49 17:38:49 No existing messages match your criteria. 17:38:55 is this the new gmail 17:38:58 or the older one 17:39:00 Is it so hard to believe "Messages in Spam and Trash will not be searched." 17:39:04 I don't know 17:39:06 yes, because I have a filter with in:spam 17:39:07 and it works 17:39:13 I've used this approximately never 17:39:19 Deewiant: do the inbox, starred etc links have a semi-large indent in front of them 17:39:20 I just get everything over POP 17:39:21 if so, it's the new one 17:39:31 indent as compared to? 17:39:38 the labels box 17:39:57 Yeah, there's about 2 or 3 em there 17:40:11 ok, then it's the new one 17:40:13 I have this filter: 17:40:15 Matches in:spam 17:40:16 Mark as read 17:40:17 and it works fine 17:40:28 so I'm confuzzled 17:40:29 Right, there's a link to "Older version" at the top 17:40:33 yeah 17:40:59 ehird: that space was relevant 17:41:01 dammit 17:41:08 oh 17:41:11 you can't have a space 17:41:13 ofc 17:41:15 i thought you meant 17:41:16 erm 17:41:17 I mean 17:41:18 should I put the space in 17:41:19 the space is necessary 17:41:22 WTF 17:41:24 [in:spam] doesn't work 17:41:27 [in:spam ] works 17:41:29 not [in:spam] 17:41:31 in:spam 17:41:38 gah 17:41:39 dammit 17:41:41 [ ] was just to represent the browser's text box 17:41:43 I told you this 17:41:50 Speak English :-P 17:41:54 :D 17:42:15 hoo, 1200 conversations of spam coming my mway 17:42:19 s/mw/w/ 17:42:40 it's like a ROLLERCOASTER of SPAM 17:42:45 Or then not? 17:43:00 Either there's a delay or it's not sending them 17:43:01 Deewiant: what's your gmail? I'll send you a test spam to see if it's working 17:43:06 ehird: deewiant@ 17:43:43 Spam sent 17:43:59 note: make sure it's in spam folder in your gmail, as well as being forwarded... 17:44:16 neither yet 17:46:03 ehird: Wasn't flagged as spam :-D 17:46:12 haha 17:46:16 * ehird gets a real spam from spam folder 17:46:22 Came into my inbox and thunderbird grabbed it from there 17:46:24 viagra spammers should just... write normally 17:46:28 they wouldn't be blocked. 17:46:38 Thunderbird didn't flag it as spam either FWIW 17:46:49 spam forwarded 17:48:08 gmail spam, wasn't forwarded to me though 17:48:23 in the filters pane, what does it say? 17:48:59 The following filters are applied to all incoming mail: Matches: in:spam Do this: Forward to ... 17:49:36 :s 17:49:53 Deewiant: try also ticking "never mark as spam" 17:49:57 in the do this 17:50:31 Send another then 17:50:37 Deewiant: btw if you use imap the spam is sent as a folder 17:50:38 (Again refused to do anything with the old ones) 17:50:45 Yeah but I use POP 17:50:49 then don't ;D 17:50:56 Spam forwarded 17:53:24 Still not received 17:54:22 Switch to IMAP 17:54:23 :| 17:54:34 Wouldn't help for receiving the mail :-P 17:54:55 sure it would 17:55:03 I meant use IMAP directly on gmail 17:55:04 :P 17:55:38 my gmail got hit with some authentic japanese spam though, and that was forwarded correctly \o/ 17:55:46 :D 17:55:50 still in the spam folder 17:55:50 ? 17:55:51 if so, great 17:55:56 No, it's not 17:55:56 enjoy your useless ibox 17:55:58 inbox 17:56:00 Deewiant: o 17:56:07 Because you told me to set "don't mark as spam" :-P 17:56:18 oh well duh 17:56:18 :P 17:56:22 Now it comes to both my gmail and non-gmail inboxes 17:56:25 That's somewhat suboptimal 17:56:38 you can fix that 17:56:44 Forsooth 17:56:53 tick "Delete it" 17:56:55 on the action 17:56:58 it'll forward it, then delete it 17:57:15 Rather, I'll not forward it and just grab it from the inbox 17:57:28 Easier :-P 17:57:38 That also doth work 17:57:42 ehird: Now tell me how I can select all spam and forward it 17:57:56 Rather, I can do the former, but I don't know how to do the latter 17:57:58 Write a script that connects via imap, reads all spams, and forwards them 17:58:00 :P 17:58:10 GMail has no 'forward' button? 17:59:15 Sure it does 17:59:18 But it's message specific 17:59:28 POS 17:59:33 Deewiant: I know! 17:59:34 Select al lof them 17:59:35 click not spam 17:59:38 hopefully, it'll forward 17:59:40 Can't do it 17:59:48 why not 17:59:48 The "not spam" button is helpfully disabled after I select all 18:00:02 deselect one 18:00:02 Because I might press it accidentally or something, I guess. 18:00:11 then do that one manually 18:00:36 Deselecting one deselects all pages that I don't see as well 18:00:44 I'd have to do each page manually 18:00:49 wrong 18:00:52 hmm 18:00:54 right 18:00:56 Deewiant: no, you can do it 18:01:00 star the top one 18:01:02 select: starred 18:01:04 err 18:01:05 unstarred 18:01:22 Still selects only the first page 18:01:31 Deewiant: do a search for 18:01:33 in:spam 18:01:34 select all 18:01:37 move to inbox 18:01:57 Ooh, now I got your spam btw :-P 18:04:07 ehird: Can I search for 'not-in:inbox' with some syntax 18:04:34 search options-> 18:04:35 doesn't have-> 18:04:37 in:inbox 18:04:43 Bloody GUIs 18:04:44 -> 18:04:46 -{in:inbox} 18:04:50 so you can just use -{search terms} 18:07:40 * ehird writes gmailbackup.py 18:08:43 Moving to inbox via the search worked 18:08:49 woot 18:09:32 And thunderbird is moving dozens to "Sent" because from = to = deewiant@ :-P 18:09:48 And haha, it can only get 252 at a time 18:09:51 POP limitation I guess 18:10:47 lol 18:11:31 Deewiant, what is this about? 18:11:48 gmailbackup? 18:11:49 heh? 18:11:58 AnMaster: stopping gmail from stopping spam 18:12:05 Deewiant, oh? 18:12:13 it stopped non-spam? 18:12:25 read the bloody conversation 18:12:29 like the rest of us 18:13:20 well I was just heading to bed anyway, since I have a bad cold, can hardly speak currently... 18:13:22 Hmm, I think something failed and I only got around 200/500 spam 18:13:24 so night 18:13:26 Oh well, whatever 18:13:28 may read the convo later 18:13:58 Aha! There is one non-spam message here 18:14:06 "MSN Groups Service Change" 18:14:12 that's spam to me :D 18:14:30 I like to archive crap like that even if I'm not interested 18:14:48 Since it's actually authentic mail to me from a provider of a service I use or used 18:14:56 As opposed to 100% junk. 18:15:03 hmm 18:15:10 do you think I should back up messages to maildir or mbox 18:15:29 maildir seems kinda pointless for what I'm doing and mbox is more supported, but I dislike mbox's one-honking-big-fil 18:15:29 e 18:15:52 Use the Mozilla version of mbox, not supported by pretty much anything right? :-P 18:16:23 Welp, my junk filter just got 80 messages of training data 18:16:26 I guess that's good 18:16:30 Bye for now all 18:16:41 I don't really want to invent my own format, see. 18:16:45 Since that's not very useful. 18:16:53 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 18:17:13 Haha 18:17:15 ehird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbox#Limitations 18:17:19 See the second paragraph 18:17:39 er, I knew that? :s 18:17:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mbox&diff=267734082&oldid=251122842 :-D 18:17:59 that's the third paragraph yo 18:18:05 no, the second 18:18:14 Limitations -- title 18:18:19 mbox stores... -- paragraph one 18:18:23 o 18:18:24 tru 18:18:25 The maildir... -- paragraph two 18:19:12 mailbox and mbox don't handle folders though 18:19:16 err 18:19:16 maildir 18:19:20 maildir++ does, but it's ugly 18:20:32 You are currently using 1 MB (0%) of your 7294 MB. 18:20:44 You are currently using 751MB (10%) of your 7294MB. 18:20:46 Hmm, now where's that coming from 18:21:09 :<, the only thing Mail.app can import is mbox and various propietary shit, + mozilla 18:21:16 Aha, there's still something in "All Mail" 18:22:20 Mayhaps I will output to both maildir AND mbox 18:22:22 configurable 18:22:44 You are currently using 0 MB (0%) of your 7294 MB. 18:22:44 Yay 18:28:10 939 344 002 bytes of mail here 18:33:58 hmm 18:34:10 problem with mbox: 18:34:14 no folder support :< 18:34:33 even folder support isn't that good tbh, since gmail's labels can be all over the place 18:34:56 -!- kwufo has quit ("Leaving."). 18:37:28 ehird: So what's wrong with maildir++ 18:37:47 Well, maildir requires me putting hostnames in the generated filenames and really that's just ridiculous 18:37:52 also it's not really suited to just dumping 18:37:58 I'll probably just dump to multiple mboxes 18:38:01 irritating though that is 18:39:50 >>> imap.list() 18:40:00 ('OK', ['(\\HasNoChildren) "/" "Agora"', '(\\HasNoChildren) "/" "B Nomic"', '(\\HasNoChildren) "/" "INBOX"', '(\\HasNoChildren) "/" "Nomicron"', '(\\Noselect \\HasChildren) "/" "[Google Mail]"', '(\\HasNoChildren) "/" "[Google Mail]/All Mail"', '(\\HasNoChildren) "/" "[Google Mail]/Bin"', '(\\HasNoChildren) "/" "[Google Mail]/Drafts"', '(\\HasNoChildren) "/" "[Google Mail]/Sent Mail"', '(\\HasNoChildren) "/" "[Google Mail]/Spam"', '(\\HasNoChildren) "/" "[Goog 18:40:11 imap i s the worst thing evar 18:40:21 :-P 18:41:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:52:13 Deewiant: does thunderbird handle maildir? 18:52:40 "Handle"? 18:52:51 can it import it 18:52:51 [('1234464706.M732275P80012Q1.bournemouth', ), ('.DS_Store', )] 18:52:55 -!- Corun has joined. 18:52:57 fucking OS X and it's fucking hidden files. :| 18:53:22 I don't know 18:54:39 I'm currently in Windows where it tells me it can import mail from "Communicator 4.x", "Eudora", "Outlook", "Outlook Express" 18:54:52 but not mbox or maildir? o_O 18:55:25 I've imported mbox format with Windows thunderbird, but I think it was more like "copy the mbox here and hope for the best". Maybe. 18:58:49 This Debian Thunderbird (rebranded Icedove) only has "Communicator 4.x" in the "Tools/Import/Mail" wizzard, but the interweb says that I can just put mbox folders under the "Local Folders" storage-place and they'll appear. 18:59:02 Maildir it probably doesn't do. 18:59:21 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:00:24 There's a lot of command-line mbox/maildir/pop/imap/stuff-handling tools, though. 19:01:33 http://yergler.net/projects/one-off/maildir-to-mbox/ 19:01:43 GNU mailutils has that "movemail" tool that can do conversions, and "capable of speaking POP3, IMAP, mbox, MH and Maildir". And the Pine people had one, too. 19:05:18 Yes, the "uw-mailutils" package has the "mailutil" tool, which is pretty much a frontend to that c-client library of theirs. It does at least IMAP, POP3 and NNTP on the network side, I don't know what local formats. That mailutil I've used in one migration, anyway. 19:08:12 The driver names are "unix", "mbox", "mmdf", "mbx", "tenex", "mtx", "mh", "news" (it's a local news-spool) and "phile" (single-file thing), so I guess it's pretty comprehensive as far as mailboxy formats go, but not maildirry. 19:12:30 -!- olsner has joined. 19:19:50 there should be an mbox variant with a header like 19:19:51 Folder: ... 19:19:55 >:( 19:20:43 (\Noselect \HasChildren) "/" "[Google Mail]" 19:20:47 i should totally not have to parse that 19:29:00 #!/usr/bin/perl 19:29:00 sub c{($_=pop)<0?print substr"/,'\\)(`\n |_.",$_+12,1:c(vec(vec 19:29:00 ('<;JK;::::B:::Tshu[FoatcN[LL;DWQ?cJ?=ghTsXqWqwhqgT@CUMGlgTpRd'. 19:29:01 'KhI_wgTp`lpGOYs>quHWthuhUbuhuh[hu@TguhMGWulXsWiiekwhqwhqwxh@q'. 19:29:01 'uXaWGhqqOmqwxhtXiThf:::[:::::Jb?cB_duWI[ZLN[DNqWIObTsPGuUoTDU'. 19:29:03 'oOqWac@sMSUDUMGlWoNp`lXsXeWqc`XquXqW=WqJeW=gpGnWqi[Pu@TgiVeNm'. 19:29:11 'qSQwWwWwWGpSQ]wWonhTTQ]ufeWonhTboEi=::ZQGke`E',$a/6,8)-58>>$a++ 19:29:12 %6&1?'HGJSTFIXOZ[':'QLRKMUVWYPN',$_,8)-82)}c 10 while$a<1728 19:30:04 Perl, Ruby & Python quine: 19:30:11 #!/usr/bin/env python 19:30:14 print 'Hello, world!\n' 19:30:23 err 19:30:26 s/quine/polyglot/ 19:30:31 with perl, it actually executes python :-D 19:30:43 print "Just another", ((0 and " Ruby ") or ("Pyt" + "hon" or " Perl ")), "hacker.\n", 19:30:46 "" 19:31:07 brilliant 19:31:14 but in python it outputs an extraneous space+newline 19:31:48 Should be no extra newline 19:31:51 That's what the "" is for 19:32:27 try it fo yourself 19:32:34 it goes \n, space, \n 19:32:36 because of the "" 19:32:58 I did try and no extra newline :-P 19:33:40 File generated by running that ends in 0D 0A. 19:33:57 As long as "" is on another line, of course. 19:34:03 >>> print "Just another", ((0 and " Ruby ") or ("Pyt" + "hon" or " Perl ")), "hacker.\n","" 19:34:03 Just another Python hacker. 19:34:03 >>> 19:34:06 err 19:34:10 >>> print "Just another", ((0 and " Ruby ") or ("Pyt" + "hon" or " Perl ")), "hacker.\n","" 19:34:12 Yes, well, it's two lines. 19:34:13 Just another Python hacker. 19:34:14 BLANK LINE HERE 19:34:15 >>> 19:34:17 ehird: You fail. 19:34:21 ehird: "" on another line. 19:34:21 Thanks. 19:34:27 Yes. 19:34:28 And? 19:34:30 That's a bug. 19:34:34 The others output 1 line. 19:34:46 We mean that in the source you put the "" part on another line. 19:34:51 Then it doesn't print out an extra line. 19:35:05 >>> print "Just another", ((0 and " Ruby ") or ("Pyt" + "hon" or " Perl ")), "hacker.\n", 19:35:09 Just another Python hacker. 19:35:11 >>> "" 19:35:14 '' 19:35:28 And the extra empty string there does not produce any output. 19:35:58 oh. 19:36:53 print "" stops working in python3k 19:37:06 that's easily fixable 19:37:08 just put parens in 19:38:10 Did they remove the automatic-newline for print() in Python 3k too? I don't remember. 19:38:37 dunno 19:38:39 hmm 19:39:17 I wonder if mbox importers check for sent 19:39:22 e.g. folders named Sent 19:39:31 and such 19:40:38 Oh, the 3.0 print() function has an extra optional parameter 'end' denoting the ending text. 19:42:36 doesn't help for polyglotism 19:45:00 http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/2009/02/25-things-about-me.html 19:45:43 written in base 0.04, i assume 19:51:50 wtf you can only do one mailbox at a time in imap. 20:13:17 grr 20:13:25 All Mail is irritating 20:13:52 because it's hard to avoid duplicate messages 20:18:06 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:22:52 http://gqwl.wordpress.com/2009/02/12/making-valentines-day-special-with-haskell-and-brainfuck/ 20:23:04 itt: paintfuck 20:23:21 -!- Metcalf has joined. 20:23:30 Hi :-) 20:23:42 hi 20:24:01 Hi Ehird, I was wondering where you are 20:24:14 oh right, I updated my system 20:24:16 so new irc client config 20:24:21 :-) 20:57:33 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Connection timed out). 21:15:47 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 21:20:40 -!- Metcalf has quit ("mov.i #1,1"). 21:49:09 o 21:49:14 ^ o is a letter. 21:49:55 Python(80380) malloc: *** mmap(size=2281472) failed (error code=12) 21:49:56 *** error: can't allocate region 21:49:56 *** set a breakpoint in malloc_error_break to debug 21:49:57 WTF 21:50:04 thas not rite 21:54:22 Heh. 2.2 gig :P 21:54:34 yeah it's downloading an email 21:54:38 I don't have any 2.2gig emails 21:57:25 um, doesn't that say 2.2 meg? 21:57:40 or is it saying 4.8 gig in pages? 21:57:42 oh, right 21:57:43 2.2 meg 21:57:44 ... oh 21:57:44 yep 21:57:46 the email is just 2mb 21:57:48 o wtf 21:57:49 so wtf 21:57:50 At least the mmap syscall is bytes. 21:57:52 i'm streaming it to a file 21:57:56 wonder if I could optimize that? 21:58:01 i.e., have it not go through a string... 21:58:05 (imap yo) 21:58:17 optimized transfer of 2MB ... should be a waste of time! 21:59:09 -!- Corun has joined. 21:59:54 And that's a rather small allocation. Although you can get ENOMEM (12) by exceeding the maximum number of mappings, too. 22:00:24 Mm. 22:00:27 I 22:00:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:00:31 'm not sure why it's doing this. 22:00:44 A tiny backtrace snippet from the end: 22:00:44 File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.5/lib/python2.5/imaplib.py", line 948, in _get_response 22:00:45 data = self.read(size) 22:00:45 File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.5/lib/python2.5/imaplib.py", line 1150, in read 22:00:46 data = self.sslobj.read(size-read) 22:00:47 MemoryError 22:00:49 Odd indeed. 22:02:41 try gc.collect() 22:03:28 What, every single mail message? It may balk out at message 10 but I'm downloading tensathousandsa messages here... 22:03:52 I'll give it a try though 22:03:55 Nope 22:03:56 same error 22:07:50 http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2008-January/474035.html 22:08:20 wow, gmail too 22:08:24 it's like we're al lthe same <3 22:08:32 "In a worst case scenario, you'll need some 13 gigabytes of 22:08:32 virtual memory to read a 15 megabyte message..." 22:08:34 holy fuck nuggets 22:08:43 worst library EVER 22:08:59 http://bugs.python.org/issue1389051 22:09:03 yep 22:10:16 well, it's been over a year 22:10:18 and no fix 22:10:18 :( 22:12:44 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 22:13:57 O 22:14:00 I'll just use libgmail 22:14:00 :-) 22:16:53 libgmail is prolly really slow though 22:17:06 as it screen-scrapes, eww 22:18:08 There were a couple of workaround-attempts in those two bugs (1389051 and 1092502). 22:18:54 I don't wanna edit the core socket.py 22:19:59 make a copy of socket.py in your project dir 22:20:25 hmm mayb 22:20:25 e 22:23:23 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:34:11 libgmail is just too slow 22:35:07 # String method conversion by ESR, February 2001. 22:35:08 x_x 22:37:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZISC 22:37:51 heh 22:45:11 "The following are SGI specific, and may be out of touch with the current version of reality. 22:45:11 " 22:48:09 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:01:04 Hooray, backup-gmail version 0.00000001pre-pre-alpha works. 23:03:42 * GregorR doubts highly that ZISCs are TC :P 23:03:54 why? 23:04:08 Because non-looping neural networks aren't. 23:04:17 And looping neural networks are generally uncomputable in bounded time. 23:05:11 * lament computes GregorR's brain 23:05:18 only took me a second! 23:16:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:26:50 * ehird just stopped 2,000 windows from opening 23:27:11 2000 windows? 23:27:16 Or Windows 2000? 23:27:19 That's the question 23:27:54 Alright, anyways, how come? Why was 2 000 windows about to open? 23:29:07 FireFly: I highlighted 2000 files then double clicked 23:29:14 Ah 2009-02-13: 00:03:56 how did you stop it? 00:05:00 olsner: Cmd-Q. 00:05:05 Quitting applications tends to stop them doing things. 00:05:11 Also, s'it just me or is gmail down? 00:05:29 Yes. 00:06:04 -!- sixforty has joined. 00:06:10 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 00:06:48 Wow. 00:06:49 All of gmail. 00:06:57 Umm, I think I'll host my own mail server. 00:08:06 my gmail is working fine. 00:12:09 Bad Request 00:12:09 Your client has issued a malformed or illegal request. 00:12:09 Please see Google's Terms of Service posted at http://www.google.com/terms_of_service.html 00:12:54 ah, works now 00:13:22 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:43:58 Heh, having a client that creates a malformed request is against the terms of service :P 00:44:03 -!- sixforty has left (?). 00:59:59 http://www.coolepochcountdown.com/ 01:10:59 That's going to be a very brief celebration :P 01:11:07 I hope the page turns bright and exciting for EXACTLY one second. 01:12:26 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:36:42 -!- MizardX has quit ("kåmpjuter köttdaon"). 01:38:33 could do with some happy fun music for just one second 01:39:15 does epoch pre-rhyme with epic or igloo or eeeee? 01:42:06 -!- MizardX has joined. 01:43:36 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 01:54:22 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:03:40 GreaseMonkey, I my me my? 02:03:55 what? 02:03:56 erm 02:03:59 I my me mine 02:04:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9wSMuCJCkQ 02:13:28 hot. 02:14:14 There has to be more to it than that. 02:14:23 Aha: I, me, my, mine, myself. 02:15:00 And ey, em, eir, eirs, emself or e, em, eir, eirs, eirself. 02:25:34 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldgVlzWCfS8 same song, different video 03:33:20 -!- ab5tract has joined. 04:27:20 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 05:15:24 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:25:02 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 05:25:09 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:41:56 -!- ab5tract has quit. 06:10:09 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 06:45:56 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:51:14 -!- cherez has joined. 07:06:50 G'night all 07:08:21 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 07:47:16 -!- cherez has left (?). 07:49:07 -!- oklopol has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:11:17 feels kinda weird using the computer on a lecture 08:11:22 hi y'all 08:11:39 do irc people exist even when i'm on lectures? 08:12:06 hi ok 08:12:14 what lecture are you in 08:13:13 -!- oklofok has joined. 08:13:16 IRC people exist always when you're observing us. 08:13:31 HI GUY LOOKING OVER oklopol's SHOULDER 08:13:31 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection reset by peer). 08:13:33 NICE SHIRT 08:16:34 i sit in the bck 08:16:36 *back 08:16:54 not even on the actual seats, i took a chair and pulled it against the back wall 08:17:03 in the corner 08:17:33 /play loud-sound.mp3 08:17:47 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 08:17:51 YOU SO FUNNIE 08:18:05 * oklofok watches some sp :< 08:18:10 sp? 08:18:19 soft porn 08:18:26 oh 08:18:27 kay 08:18:29 do share 08:18:43 *sick 08:19:12 so, where does everyone summer 08:19:22 wtf? 08:19:26 Do you mean "suffer"? 08:19:31 no no i mean summer 08:19:35 are you some sort of country club rich folk? 08:20:19 oklofok: probably toronto 08:20:26 but i might go to europe too 08:21:21 wow an actual answer, that was unexpected, how do you keep it fresh after so many years lammy? 08:21:48 where in europe 08:21:54 isn't it kinda boring here/there 08:22:06 -!- DarkPants has joined. 08:22:08 Well, if this is going to be one of those "actual answers" things... I guess I'll have to go to visit elderly relatives at Lieksa again this year; been a couple of years from the last visit. 08:22:13 so 08:22:28 the question is about subsets, guy starts to draw a truth table. 08:22:30 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Nick collision from services.). 08:22:36 -!- DarkPants has changed nick to GreaseMonkey. 08:22:50 there's summer? 08:22:56 i probably won't go outside long enough to notice 08:25:30 -!- nescience has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:27:41 -!- Leonidas has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:41 -!- AnMaster has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:42 -!- Asztal has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:42 -!- lament has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:43 -!- psygnisfive has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:47 -!- Deewiant has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:47 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:47 -!- fungot has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:48 -!- MizardX has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:48 -!- Dewio has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:49 -!- Judofyr has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:51 -!- ski__ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:52 -!- sebbu has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:54 -!- ehird has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:54 -!- GregorR has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:54 -!- comex has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:54 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:58 -!- rodgort has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:59 -!- chuck has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:28:00 -!- mtve has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:28:00 -!- kerlo has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:28:00 -!- ineiros has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:28:01 -!- SimonRC has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:28:01 -!- oklofok has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:28:01 -!- pikhq has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:28:01 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:28:02 -!- Ilari has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:28:02 -!- dbc has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:29:16 -!- evenant has joined. 08:29:16 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 08:29:16 -!- oklofok has joined. 08:29:16 -!- pikhq has joined. 08:29:16 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 08:29:16 -!- MizardX has joined. 08:29:16 -!- ehird has joined. 08:29:16 -!- Deewiant has joined. 08:29:16 -!- Dewio has joined. 08:29:16 -!- GregorR has joined. 08:29:16 -!- chuck has joined. 08:29:16 -!- comex has joined. 08:29:16 -!- sebbu has joined. 08:29:16 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 08:29:16 -!- Leonidas has joined. 08:29:16 -!- fizzie has joined. 08:29:16 -!- fungot has joined. 08:29:16 -!- AnMaster has joined. 08:29:16 -!- ski__ has joined. 08:29:16 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 08:29:16 -!- Judofyr has joined. 08:29:16 -!- Asztal has joined. 08:29:16 -!- lament has joined. 08:29:16 -!- mtve has joined. 08:29:16 -!- Ilari has joined. 08:29:16 -!- kerlo has joined. 08:29:16 -!- rodgort has joined. 08:29:16 -!- ineiros has joined. 08:29:16 -!- SimonRC has joined. 08:29:16 -!- dbc has joined. 08:29:42 discrete math, tons of different kinds of discrete math stacked together, scratching the surface. 08:29:42 very broad and simple course 08:29:42 i'm a stupid 08:29:42 i'm getting dumber i think 08:29:42 also useless if you do the algebra stuff, but this is for cs people, i'm just filling the holes in my schedule with it 08:30:13 i mean, i am technically cs people, but i should probably be math people 08:30:46 cs is math 08:31:10 go to #not-math and say that 08:31:23 lament: why? 08:31:48 to see how a bunch of mathematicians would react to that statement :) 08:31:51 and cs is math, it's just simpler math, and the actual cs courses aren't entirely about cs. 08:32:02 lament: to me being math people? 08:32:17 oh 08:32:18 oklofok: to cs being math 08:32:19 bsmntbombdood 08:32:21 ah. 08:32:24 i did it, do i get a cookie? 08:32:39 if nobody's awake it doesn't count 08:32:50 yeah, it's not math, but i assumed he meant the science VS math distinction 08:35:41 actually trwbw is awake, so he's just ignoring you 08:36:27 it's funny how every technical chanel has an extremely knowledgable person who is also a total dick 08:36:40 is it ehird? 08:37:00 trbw is #math's, zhivago is ##c's, riadstrat is #scheme's 08:37:04 we don't have one 08:37:08 oh :< 08:37:14 oerjan is our genius, but he's nice 08:37:23 i'm a total dick but i don't know shit 08:37:30 maybe when i start doing my CA research, i can start being a dick 08:37:36 but i don't think riaqjkxqjkx is at all a dick 08:37:54 yeah he's one of the better ones 08:38:01 #lisp, on the other hand, is all dicks :) 08:38:05 and #haskell doesn't have ayn 08:38:08 any 08:38:14 he's just gruff 08:39:47 well. gotta leave, it seems the computer screen has started to make me feel sick :) 08:39:55 which is kinda cool, because i'm an irc addict. 08:39:58 but. ~> 08:40:00 throw up. 08:40:03 in class. 08:40:13 walk up to the front first 08:40:19 you know you wanna 08:40:34 come on just do it, this is your chance 08:40:52 what are you waiting for? 08:41:34 he's not answering, maybe he's doing it right now! 08:42:00 hawt 08:42:06 hey lament where do you live? 08:42:20 canada 08:42:38 which canada? 08:42:46 the purple one 08:43:45 look, my computer can execute and infinite loop in 6.8 seconds 08:43:51 #include 08:43:52 int main(){uint32_t i; for(i = 1; i != 0; i++); return 0;} 08:58:55 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 09:14:58 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 09:56:20 s/i\+\+/i+=2/ 10:02:44 -!- MizardX has changed nick to MizardX-. 10:03:19 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 12:09:10 -!- MizardX- has joined. 12:12:02 -!- MizardX has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:12:04 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 12:22:58 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:44:09 -!- oklopol has joined. 14:17:41 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:00:03 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:00:09 Hi :-) 15:00:59 Had trouble accessing freenode, for some reason my ip had been banned :-( 15:12:11 hah I just read xkcd... Very meta humor today 15:13:05 huh? 15:15:32 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:21:42 Hi ais523 15:21:46 hello 15:22:51 hi. 15:23:18 Hi slereah2. :-) 15:23:42 Hi all (to cover everyone else) 15:30:57 hiiii 15:31:21 I've put in suggestions for a new round of BF Joust, but they've fallen on deaf ears so far, people have been distracted 15:32:02 my suggestions were: tape reduce to between 10 and 50 elements, . as an explicit no-op that wastes a cycle, flags have to be at 0 for two consecutive cycles to cause their owner to lose 15:32:21 hello ais523 15:32:46 hello AnMaster 15:35:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:35:10 -!- ais523_ has joined. 15:39:10 -!- ais523_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:42:56 Hmmm... I made reddit frontpage today :-) 15:48:42 which one? 15:53:10 Pix 15:59:48 -!- ais523_ has joined. 16:00:53 ais523_, connection issues? 16:01:17 yep 16:01:24 how come I have an underscore? 16:01:25 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 16:01:32 ais523, btw is the Door repaired yet? 16:01:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:01:44 it was locked by hand a couple of nights ago, so probably not 16:01:50 I see 16:12:44 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:18:47 I think the wiki main page needs an update. 16:19:07 "Waiting for the results of the 2006 Esolang Contest" seems a bit out of date 16:22:07 definitely 16:22:10 although we're still waiting... 16:22:24 IIRC, the main page isn't protected, so you can update it yourself if you like 16:23:36 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:27:02 "Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory", is that important? 16:27:08 I don't think so 16:27:17 it's another thing that never really got started 16:28:01 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:38:39 -!- Judofyr has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:39:08 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 17:13:53 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 17:20:17 So what happened to the 2006 Esolang results? 17:20:24 they never arrived 17:20:32 the contest happened, just we never got the results 17:20:34 AnMaster: the optimizing assembly one 17:20:53 what? 17:21:08 Who was responsible for them? Can't they be harrassed? 17:21:40 what are you talking about? 17:21:45 Answering questions in the backlog! 15:48:41 which one? 17:22:02 impomatic, oh you took so long it timed out from my mental questions yet to be answered buffer 17:22:21 but if you are interested in optimising asm you might want to look at http://code.google.com/p/mao/ 17:22:26 found that a few days ago 17:23:10 :-) 17:23:28 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:24:02 * impomatic would be interested in a new round of BF Joust 17:24:32 so would I 17:24:38 * impomatic takes a look 17:24:43 maybe I'll wite a hill myself 17:24:52 because my suggestion was just ignored or forgotten about, I think 17:27:31 Well if you write a hill, I'll submit :-) 17:28:03 What suggestion? A different spec? 17:28:09 yes, slightly different 17:28:34 tape from 10 to 50 elements, . as an explicit no-op that takes one cycle, you need to keep the enemy flag zero for two consecutive cycle-ends to win 17:30:10 Hmmm... that's got to be better than having 135 > in the middle of every program 17:30:36 yes, and it opens various new strategies as well 17:30:44 to be precise, it makes defensive strategies a lot more useful 17:31:13 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:34:03 Hmmm... maybe it should have 1 point for a tie, 3 points for a win 17:34:03 To encourage defensive strategies 17:34:29 to start with, I'll probably write a one-of joust runner, rather than a hill 17:34:34 maybe not now, though, I'm RL-busy 17:41:12 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:44:08 * AnMaster sighs. 17:44:20 Why this recent interested in eso-codewar? 17:45:04 why not? it's fun 17:45:21 well, "why now"? 17:45:28 and impomatic comes from a codewarrior background, it's an obvious idea for someone like that 17:45:29 I didn't ask "why", but rather "why now" 17:45:31 ah 17:45:40 well I never found it very interesting 17:45:57 well,* 17:46:07 and yes, of course it is subjective 17:46:09 I guess I'm interested because I'm an actual corewar player 17:46:15 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:47:11 Yes, I had quite a bit of fun with BF Joust, trying out different strategies. 17:47:14 impomatic, well of course I realise "interesting" is highly subjective 17:47:31 but " and impomatic comes from a codewarrior background, it's an obvious idea for someone like that" answered the question I have 17:47:42 In the end I could only find one strategy with a decent score. Other more intelligent strategies didn't score well :-( 17:47:44 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:48:28 impomatic, what about overwriting cell 2 or 3 or such of the other player's code tape? 17:48:50 right at the start 17:49:03 might not work very well I guess 17:49:05 AnMaster: there isn't a way to do that in most code war games 17:49:13 for instance, in CoreWars the opponent's at a random location 17:49:16 Hi Sebbu 17:49:21 in the games where there is, like FYB, it works badly 17:49:22 ais523, um in BF Joust... why not --? 17:49:31 hi 17:49:32 AnMaster: because in BF Joust you can't overwrite the enemy's code at all 17:49:41 ais523, oh, which one was that then? 17:49:45 some on esowiki? 17:49:48 FYB you're thinking of 17:49:51 ah 17:49:53 that was it 17:50:03 ais523, so what one is joust? 17:50:08 on the wiki? 17:50:12 it isn't on the wiki 17:50:15 it was a subgame of Agora 17:50:17 well specs then... 17:50:33 ais523, care to link to specs? I assume they must be somewhere 17:50:45 let me try to find them 17:50:52 it's a dynamic thing, the rules are updated from time to time 17:51:01 at the moment they just say "There is no current tournament. Coming Soon!" 17:51:05 let me find the version before that 17:51:14 A reasonable summary is in #esoteric logs also, but I don't remember the day. 17:51:35 by the way, I recently (last week) went over all projects by google on google code. Found some rather interesting ones 17:51:49 like core dump on the fly and then continue 17:51:58 http://code.google.com/p/google-coredumper/ 17:52:07 revision 1 of http://agora-notary.wikidot.com/brainfuck-joust has it 17:52:14 stupid JS-generated pages that can't be linked to... 17:52:20 you have to go via "history" at the bottom of the page 17:53:43 Also the "history" button here just says "Error processing the request. You have no valid security token which is required to prevent identity theft. Please enable cookies in your browser if you have this option disabled and reload this page." (I do whitelist-only cookiesies.) 17:53:56 ok, that's really really ridiculous 17:54:04 I now hate wikidot even more than I did before you said that 17:54:14 "Can't look at the page history, someone might STEAL your IDENTITY." 17:54:16 identity theft of a wiki history page, which is somehow prevented using cookies? 17:56:17 The spec is also included in this article http://tr.im/f03n 17:56:52 (which leaves out the boring bits) 17:59:07 we need a better version, really 17:59:19 I think the 2-consecutive-cycles thing really would alter the way the game was played 17:59:29 By the way, there's a huge list of programming games at http://aiforge.net 17:59:29 I'm slowly working my way through them 18:21:49 Wouldn't -[>>[-]<-] be a solution that keeps the flag zero for 2 consecutive cycles? 18:22:12 it would make you overshoot the end and die 18:22:30 [>[-].-] would work as a trivial warrior if your opponent didn't interfere 18:22:35 (this is why we have an explicit NOP) 18:24:16 Ah okay. 18:24:50 -!- nooga has joined. 18:24:54 Mine shouldn't overshoot the end though. 18:25:16 ++ S . S 18:26:46 ah, yes 18:37:56 got a simple multithreaded server written in C? :D 18:41:27 nooga, "++ S . S" <-- what language? 18:44:24 none, it just looks funny 18:44:51 isn't that legal C++? 18:45:06 I think it's legal Haskell and Prolog, but only if you define operators in each 18:45:06 the problem is that ruby has melted my brain and now i am so illiterate i can't write simple, multithreaded tcp server in c 18:45:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:47:27 my noise? :< 18:47:41 oh no, it was quite physical at my place 18:47:54 C is so old, I prefer B# 18:48:45 yup, but i need C 18:50:19 ais523, I was considering prolog yes, At first it looked like a fragment of Erlang, but I quickly concluded that since a) ++ is probably be most useless erlang operator in existence b) ++ is binary not unary. c) A variable reference after a . doesn't make a lot of sense 18:50:53 well, in prolog you can write any junk sequence of operators and values, it's only evaluated if you try to evaluate it 18:51:35 joy is funny 18:51:43 \amusing i'd say 18:52:06 ais523, also ++ in erlang means "concat lists", and is useless because it is slow on large lists unless you concat one element at head, and then you would use [H|T] anyway 18:52:33 so useless in any real code 18:52:45 AnMaster: just because an operator's slow doesn't necessarily make it useless 18:53:13 ais523, well I have hardly seen any code using it, and most erlang books recommends avoiding it 18:54:07 ... 18:54:14 ais523, consider that if the first argument needs to be copied due to single assignment. 18:54:29 you get an O(terrible) behaviour for any code using it 18:54:51 $#U)T32iq[tow5esp'rf[sd0gee45$$$kprkgp[rk 18:54:54 that was perl 18:54:57 eot 18:54:59 :D 18:55:09 normal way is to build lists backwards then call the BIF (built in function) lists:reverse/1 18:55:10 * ais523 tries to parse that 18:55:15 which since it is built in is very fast 18:55:17 it's the second half of a statement 18:55:34 =.=' 18:55:42 I can't parse that perl 18:55:56 to make it legal, you'd have to add something to the start and end 18:55:59 hypothesis: You can't parse perl with LR(1) 18:56:17 I haven't really investigated this though 18:56:24 P6 seems to be cool 18:56:25 but considering what little perl I know... 18:56:28 actually, I think that isn't legal 18:56:39 unless it's inside a here-document or string or something 18:56:41 which is cheating 18:57:06 ais523, would it be possible to parse perl using simple LR(1)? 18:58:34 no, it's actually uncomputable to parse Perl5 18:58:36 iirc python is LL(1) 18:58:49 ais523, well assuming no BEGIN blocks? 18:58:53 well,* 18:59:28 * AnMaster hates this keyboard's , key... pressing it down has larger friction than other keys for some reason 18:59:37 oh, assuming no BEGIN blocks, LR(1) isn't enough 18:59:37 I think it's legal Haskell and Prolog, but only if you define operators in each 18:59:42 nor is LR(n) for any n 18:59:44 oh and altgr only has larger friction going upwards 18:59:46 but it's theoretically possible 18:59:49 ais523, really? 19:00:09 AnMaster: how many tokens in s/a b 19:00:10 i don't think so. ++ S . S implies S is a function and i don't think you can achieve that. 19:00:20 ais523, what? 19:00:34 s/a? 19:00:40 s/a b 19:00:46 .. and what does that mean? 19:01:03 it means replace some string with 19:01:05 it's half a command 19:01:06 oh well, you could hide the usual definitions of ++ and ., i guess 19:01:09 and the some string is either ab or "a b" 19:01:14 ais523, what about the matching /? 19:01:20 +++++++++++++++++++ 19:01:21 that's several lines later 19:01:24 s/a/b/g in sed for example 19:01:28 that's how I'm proving the LR(n) for any n 19:01:38 you can add an infinite number of newlines then either //x; or //; 19:01:41 ais523, then there is no way you can handle /* foo */ in C? 19:01:43 and that changes how that one line is parsed 19:01:49 oh 19:01:56 ais523, so what does the x mean? 19:02:05 it means ignore whitespace inside the s/// group 19:02:36 ais523, ok so that changes what the parameters look like, right 19:02:45 but does that have to be in the parser? 19:02:50 it changes whether a b parses as two tokens or 3 19:03:05 and yes, because regular expressions can contain Perl code, so need parsing 19:03:05 s/a b//x would mean 19:03:12 it means delete all occurences of ab 19:03:29 whereas s/a b// or s/a\ b//x means delete all occurences of a b 19:03:41 ais523, I see, because I would just treat it as "string which is passed to s///-mini language interpreter" 19:03:49 but that language is perl 19:03:57 ais523, ok, then how do you treat eval? 19:03:59 people have written perl programs almost entirely inside regular expression by now 19:04:10 you invoke a sub-interpreter 19:04:11 AnMaster: eval is given a string as its argument, so it's parsed as a string 19:04:34 but invoking a sub-interpreter for s/// is like invoking a sub-interpreter for while 19:04:35 that makes no sense 19:04:37 ais523, indeed. Couldn't you implement s/// as that? 19:04:51 same as eval I mean 19:04:54 ais523, hm 19:04:58 why? 19:05:06 scoping, probably 19:05:08 and gotos 19:05:09 you just have to pass any set variables back 19:05:23 also scope for while would end at end of while surely? 19:05:26 is that true that Perl 6 is basically an ultra powerful regex engine that can alter itself creating basically infinite levels of abstraction? 19:05:35 I'm not entirely sure if goto x; s/(?{x:; print "hello"})// works 19:05:39 but knowing Perl, it probably does 19:05:50 or do you imply that while ... { $a=$b } makes a being set outside? 19:06:12 nooga, no 19:06:16 why? 19:06:21 it's obviously possible for loops to alter variables outside a loop 19:06:22 nooga, they run it on DNF 19:06:23 :P 19:06:25 more importantly, you can goto into a loop 19:06:36 if the loop wasn't parsed, you wouldn't know there was a label there 19:06:37 (released at xmas) 19:06:55 ais523, what would goto inside a loop do in C? 19:07:03 like: 19:07:07 DNF = Do Not Fuckwithme? 19:07:09 BREAK THE UNIVERSE 19:07:11 AnMaster: see Duff's Device 19:07:16 it's entirely legal 19:07:21 it just jumps to the point where the label is 19:07:28 when it reaches the end of the loop, it does whatever the end of the loop does 19:07:35 goto x; for(int i = 0; i<20; i++) { ... x label somewhere here } 19:07:40 surely i is undefined then? 19:07:46 that assumes C99 yes 19:07:47 i is uninitialised 19:07:52 not undefined 19:08:07 fun 19:08:09 because the initialiser was skipped, but declarations are compile-time not run-time, they apply to scopes 19:08:47 wonder how gcc handles the stack pointer for that with computed goto 19:08:48 hm 19:08:53 that would be a nightmare 19:09:09 AnMaster: by allocating space for all the blocks inside a function at the start of a function 19:09:14 simple enough when you know about it 19:10:00 really? what about alloca()? 19:10:22 oh, it screws up 19:10:35 or to be precise, never allocates the memory 19:10:43 also it explains why valgrind reports uninitialised variables in blocks near the end of the function as "allocated on stack at " 19:10:45 because it's a function, not a compiler directive 19:11:10 ais523, I think alloca() is a built in function in gcc? 19:11:13 or? 19:11:23 I can hardly imagine it would work if it wasn't 19:11:30 it is, but it can work not as a built-in function 19:11:48 it works by messing with the stack pointer, which only works if you aren't omitting the frame pointer 19:11:51 well, only if the compiler is aware of it 19:11:54 blah 19:11:55 but which the compiler needn't know about as long as the frame pointer is there 19:11:59 C# has a call GC.Collect() 19:12:04 doesn't fucking do shit 19:12:05 I'm pretty surre it started life as a non-builtin 19:12:37 ais523, well if the frame pointer isn't there, how will compiler know how much to stubstract from the stack top pointer at return? 19:12:54 lament, how do you know? 19:13:19 cause i keep running out of memory 19:13:23 lament, if you mean "didn't return memory to OS" then you are probably right. It would probably just keep the memory around for future allocation 19:13:34 like Python or Java do 19:13:49 and even malloc() and free() iirc 19:13:58 AnMaster: that's why it only works with frame pointers 19:13:59 though for that it is a bit more complex 19:14:05 but alloca is old, omitting frame pointers is new 19:14:09 hm ok 19:14:34 ais523, btw I ran into an interesting issue recently 19:14:58 was using valgrind on a binary compiled with -O0 -ggdb3. and using -db-attach=yes to attach gdb at the point of the issue 19:15:09 valgrind prints a stack trace, asks if I want to attach 19:15:19 I enter "y" for yes 19:15:27 gdb shows a stack trace with a few ??? 19:15:38 that happens a lot, it means the stack itself got corrupted 19:15:42 if I use gdb from the start and break at that point I see a working stack trace 19:15:56 ais523, no it didn't, the issue was an assert() 19:16:03 it wasn't even a normal valgrind error 19:16:15 so that doesn't explain it 19:16:46 thing is when using gdb from the start it shows a nice backtrace from either breakpoint or the SIGABRT in abort() 19:16:50 that assert() calls 19:16:55 ais523, so to me this makes no sense 19:17:44 everything in the backtrace, except libc itself, was built with -O0 -ggdb3. Glibc was built with debugging symbols. I think that means -O2 -g 19:18:02 and framepointers were NOT omitted 19:18:10 so I have no idea what cause this 19:18:18 ais523, just wonder if you can think of anything 19:19:26 ais523, nothing? 19:19:32 no 19:19:36 threads? 19:19:57 not that the program actually uses threads, but it uses sqlite which internally use threads 19:20:33 also the assert() was inside a dlopen()ed plugin (again -O0 -ggdb3, like the main program) 19:20:38 no idea if that could affect it? 19:21:39 AnMaster: I'm busy with something else, and don't know anything about that sort of thing... 19:21:45 right 19:27:27 Sorry to bug, but, out of interest, does anyone how would one split an array into n equal portions in haskell? 19:27:46 ah, the old faq 19:27:51 they but aren't 19:29:26 Hiato: iirc dropWhile (not . null) . something (splitAt n) 19:29:57 ok, perfect, will try it, thanks oerjan 19:29:58 something may be mapAccumL, let me test 19:30:15 oh wait you said n portions 19:30:24 (heh, saves me from trying a million functions) 19:30:26 yeah 19:30:26 i answered portions of n each :) 19:30:32 oh, heh 19:30:34 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1"). 19:30:51 also did you mean array or list? 19:31:39 on #haskell I as just told "list" is the word 19:32:11 haskell also has arrays, but they are used for different things 19:32:59 yeah, well, splitAt works just fine :P 19:33:08 I can then easily use tail/head etc 19:33:23 yes but mapAccumL was wrong. hm. 19:34:02 oh unfoldr i think 19:34:45 takeWhile (not . null) . unfoldr (Just . splitAt 3) $ "abcdefghij" 19:34:53 is what i was trying at with the first 19:35:08 it still splits into parts of 3 though 19:35:39 ok, hrmm.. that may be useful, but not in my sorting algo, thanks anyway (PS: Haskell is da s4$t! man, is it awsome, just have to learn it first..) 19:35:48 oh sorting... 19:36:48 it may be easier to collect things bottom up, as i recall 19:37:05 at least for a mergesort 19:37:30 "s4$t"? Please no swearing in the channel. 19:37:50 yeah, but I'm writing my own little sorting algorithm, based on arithmetic means and what have you 19:37:59 lament: I do apologise, I meant shit 19:38:03 ;) 19:38:13 yeah, haskell is pretty sast alright 19:38:54 sast? 19:39:15 well that was my comment on the whole s4$t thing, didn't realize lament already used it up. 19:39:32 oh, heh 19:40:20 er, anyone know how to grab the type of something, I can't remember.. it's not 'a' :: type, but I think it's close to that 19:40:26 and, so i cool up my coke in the freezer, wait for ages for it to be just perfect 19:40:40 then i sleep for 4 hours with the coke in room temperature next to the bed. 19:40:58 <- superidddiot 19:42:19 Hiato: um for what purpose? 19:42:29 to see the type, use :t in the interpreter 19:42:35 grab the type 19:42:53 there is no such thing unadorned i think 19:43:11 noup 19:43:14 no first-class types 19:43:22 asTypeOf can force something to have the same type as something else 19:43:34 if you want first class types you need the cock 19:43:43 you do? 19:43:51 yes. 19:43:57 how cum? 19:43:59 i think the hen can work too (Agda) 19:44:32 (pun comprehensible to swedes and some norwegians only) 19:45:01 please exp. 19:45:11 ok maybe a finn 19:45:27 cock -> Coq, theorem assistant 19:45:39 name is french, refers to the bird 19:45:51 cock refers to the bird? Get it? Ha-ha. 19:46:13 as well as to a certain Coquand who probably invented the theory behind it 19:46:38 but "hen"? 19:47:21 Agda II is a different theorem prover/programming language 19:47:29 i know...... 19:47:45 a certain Catarina Coquand, who is _not_ i think the same, is involved in it 19:47:54 she lives in sweden afaiu 19:48:10 she's one cocky bastard 19:48:20 at least she's on chalmers.se 19:48:30 oerjan: and "hen", because..? 19:48:30 may be a relative? 19:48:37 Hönan Agda 19:48:53 (JFGI :) ) 19:49:03 (in winhugs it's :type bleh) 19:49:12 Hiato: :t works too 19:49:39 "hönan agda" is a song 19:49:58 oklopol: when investigating this, i saw no confession of it, but Catarina or someone else _must_ have intended Agda II as a pun on this mess 19:50:08 (yes, yes it does oerjan :P ) 19:50:52 i.e. Coq <-> cock, Agda <-> hen, in a way involving an inside pun 19:52:35 oerjan: but, but.... how can a pun be so deep but not make any sense! :D 19:52:59 um what doesn't make sense? 19:53:31 well, probably just my face. 19:53:32 also, it nicely preserves the sexual innuendo of cock, since Hönan Agda is a raunchy song... 19:53:46 yeah, i gathered from the music video 19:54:09 okay, okay, i guess it made sense. 19:54:29 now i just need to find someone who admits it... :D 19:55:49 * oerjan fails again 19:57:28 wtf is agda ii ? 20:00:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agda_(theorem_prover) 20:09:20 If monkeying around voids the warranty, fine. If monkeying around is outlawed...then only outlaws will have monkeys...er. um. wait. 20:10:01 well the most famous monkey guy in norway is also a pirate. but i digress. 20:10:14 digressions are fun, though 20:10:22 as are monkey pirates 20:10:45 i know nothing about those. 20:11:02 -!- Pthing has joined. 20:12:31 hm i may be confused about that monkey thing. 20:12:35 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:12:58 -!- Pthing has joined. 20:13:13 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:15:23 -!- [Soap] has joined. 20:18:02 Soaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap 20:18:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:19:58 can someone tell me why this works?I hadn't finished writing the function and presto, seems to work, I thought I'd need a layer of recursion, but I guess not. max x =if head x == 0 then tail x else (map (head) (groupBy (\x y -> x>y) ((0:(reverse x))))) 20:21:32 Hiato, what language? Part of it looks like Lisp, part of it doesn't 20:21:45 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----### 20:21:48 haskell? 20:21:54 good boy 20:22:03 -!- [Soap] has left (?). 20:22:08 oerjan, just a guess, nothing else would look that messed up 20:22:09 :P 20:22:36 well the indentation is messy 20:22:39 also it was the only language you would react that way for 20:22:41 :P 20:22:48 :D 20:22:51 you got me 20:23:01 actually, unlambda might do too 20:23:02 actually I disliked python before. But python 3.x is a lot nicer 20:23:09 still the indention based block thing... 20:23:20 well it has both bad and good points 20:23:26 still overall I prefer {} 20:23:36 but python 3 is a lot nicer than 2.x IMO 20:24:05 oerjan, I know unlambda looks totally different 20:24:22 like `````li```d````````s```````k 20:24:26 or something 20:24:42 probably not THAT many `, but close 20:24:43 AnMaster: in an Unlambda program there are always exactly 1 more non-` than `, unless you mess with I/O 20:24:56 ```sii``sii for instance 20:24:56 * oerjan swats AnMaster again for good measure -----### 20:25:01 ais523, oh? Well I don't claim to know the language 20:25:06 well, learn it then 20:25:11 just it is one of those that is easy to identify 20:25:12 like: 20:25:21 [+++]-->++>++ 20:25:32 Hiato: what the heck is that _supposed_ to do? 20:25:38 even if I didn't know bf I would know it was bf, or some derivative 20:25:44 (spelling on last word?) 20:25:51 spelt corectly 20:25:55 *correctly 20:25:59 find the max value of a list, eg max [101,1,4,2,45,99] => 101 20:26:22 that's trivial, just run the input as Mathematica 20:26:23 well the then part is clearly wrong 20:26:32 it has the wrong type to do what you want 20:26:32 Max[101,1,4,2,45,99] is 101 in Mathematica, IIRC 20:26:38 or that $$%#d$&?%$s///8236g5$$$)%&() was perl 20:26:39 :P 20:26:53 * AnMaster waits for more swats 20:26:55 AnMaster: it is, it means "the current process ID modulo" and then the rest of the line is commented out 20:27:03 ais523, oh ok 20:27:04 hah 20:27:17 ais523, what if you remove the # then? 20:27:38 I think it's a syntax error starting from the third $ 20:27:49 really? so the d is valid? 20:27:57 ok 20:28:07 $$%d{4} would be a deprecated syntax for $$$d{4} 20:28:09 or that $$%d;$&?%$s;///82;36g5$$$);%&() was perl 20:28:13 maybe that then? 20:28:27 ah, that might be 20:28:33 ais523, and "$$%d{4} would be a deprecated syntax for $$$d{4}" ? 20:28:38 what the heck is $$$ then? 20:28:45 $a = scalar variable a 20:28:51 $$a = the scalar that scalar variable a points to 20:28:57 also where did the % go? 20:29:00 $$$a = the scalar that the scalar that scalar variable a points to 20:29:02 wasn't it modulo? 20:29:08 varies by context 20:29:13 it's both a unary and a binary operator 20:29:17 * AnMaster headfloors 20:29:18 Hiato: for one thing you have many unnecessary parentheses 20:29:27 also, $$a = the scalar that scalar variable a points to, but $$ = the current process ID 20:29:36 headfloor > headdesk > facepalm 20:29:58 remember to remove any glasses you have before 20:30:28 btw is "glasses" or "spectacles" the most common word in English? I have heard both 20:30:30 oerjan, yeah, I noticed: max x = if head x == 0 then tail x else map head (groupBy (\x y -> x>y) ((0:(reverse x))) 20:30:50 (0:reverse x) is also enough 20:31:05 AnMaster: I hear glasses more often, but they're synonyms 20:31:07 ok, sweet 20:31:10 both words are ambiguous 20:31:15 however, that will only work for some lists 20:31:15 ais523, I know they are synonyms 20:31:21 ambiguous? how? 20:31:29 "glasses" also means "glass cylinders with bases that people drink out of", sort of like "tumblers" 20:31:34 also what about a non-ambiguous alternative? 20:31:36 "spectacles" also means "things people like to watch" 20:31:45 ah 20:31:46 it's fun to have one word with multiple meanings 20:31:57 right, I knew the first, just didn't think of it 20:31:57 and there isn't an unambiguous alternative, although generally it's obvious from context 20:32:03 Hiato: it only works if the maximum is the first element and all the others are smaller 20:32:08 did you know the second? 20:32:08 and the second one is logical from the Swedish work spektakel 20:32:17 er, the last part is redundant :D 20:32:26 afaics 20:32:32 oerjan: what if there's more than one maximum? 20:32:43 * oerjan swats ais523 -----### 20:32:57 ais523, we have an unambig. word in Swedish: glasögon (glasseyes, for some reason you say as pair of glasseyes, like you say a pair of pants, instead of one pant) 20:33:09 eyeglasses 20:33:12 oerjan: nope :P 20:33:13 we got eyeglasses too 20:33:23 Main> maximum [101,1,4,2,45,6,3,7,102,97] 20:33:23 102 20:33:25 Pthing, is that same as glasses/spectacles 20:33:29 yeah 20:33:38 really? never heard "eyeglasses" 20:33:39 kinda archaic tho 20:33:44 oh I see 20:34:07 O_O 20:34:11 oerjan, what? 20:34:24 Hiato: sheesh, maximum is the builtin!!!!!!!!! 20:34:53 haha 20:34:59 what are you talking about? 20:35:02 btw max is a builtin name too 20:35:33 btw, do you read haskell from left to right or right to left? 20:35:56 I mean both C and LISP are very much left to right, while perl is sometimes right to left (like die() if foo) 20:36:11 i think you got to vary with haskell 20:36:14 ah 20:36:41 ok C isn't always the right way around, assignment for example 20:36:42 haskell is backwards, forwards, and sideways 20:36:43 long . and $ combinations, you may need to go right to left 20:36:57 where is bottom-to-top 20:37:02 like foo = a(b, c, &d->foo[3]) 20:37:14 (those are different foo) 20:37:26 lament, bottom to top? 20:37:37 oerjan: yeah, so is length, but that didn't stop me from writing len x = if x==[] then 0 else rlen (x,0); rlen (x,n) = if head x==sum x then n+1 else rlen(tail x,n+1) and then len (x:xs) = if xs==[] then 1 else ln xs+1 20:38:02 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 20:38:05 ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 20:38:08 oerjan, I prefer languages that you read mostly in one direction 20:38:18 Hiato: huh? len is not the same as length 20:38:37 C is very much left to right apart from the single case of assignment. where it would be more logical to put the variable you assign at the end 20:38:39 assign to* 20:39:06 oerjan: er? basically, I'm just stuffing around, learning haskell 20:39:10 Hiato: unless you do some import hiding stuff, you _cannot_ redefine Prelude builtins 20:39:17 scheme is mostly left to right (exception define's parameter order have the same issue as C's assignment, same for let) 20:39:32 Hiato: yes, but you have to test your functions with the name you have given them, duh 20:39:44 you wrote maximum above, that is the builtin 20:40:23 I raelise now 20:40:24 :P 20:41:23 one thing I dislike with many languages is that it is not always clear if you are acting on the same variable or a copy. Single assignment languages doesn't have a issue, nor does C, but for example C++ (references) and Perl seem to have this issue. 20:41:28 So does python 20:41:41 20:47:03 without malicious input: mx x = if head x == 0 then head (tail x) else mx (0:(reverse (map head (groupBy (\x y -> x>y) (0:reverse x))))) 20:47:12 ie [1,1,1] counts as horrible input 20:49:13 (actually, it doesn't break at all) 20:49:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:49:44 does [0,1,2] count? ;D 20:49:50 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:50:00 fnord. 20:55:28 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:56:24 -!- olsner has joined. 20:56:31 oerjan, what about passing it a non-list? Oh wait if it is haskell that will just be a boring type error 20:56:51 duh duh duh duh, duh duh 20:59:42 s/d/I/g;s/u/W/g;s/h/C/g 21:03:58 oerjan, ^ 21:04:06 i for one welcome our robot timelords 21:04:15 hah 21:15:54 If you're doing sed expressions, you might as well do y/duh/IWC/ which will do the same thing. 21:16:29 y ask y 21:42:20 AnMaster: in python, you're acting on the same variable, period. 21:42:27 it's that simple 21:43:30 but methods are either side-effective or un-side-effected. 21:43:42 1234561310 <<< gettin close 21:43:51 it's gonna be so awesome :D 21:43:59 thank you whoever linked that, GregorR? 21:44:05 wait no 21:44:09 he just commented it 21:44:14 let's see 21:44:31 oh mizzie 21:44:52 wait, it's that timestamp thing? 21:45:32 THE GAME 21:45:46 http://www.coolepochcountdown.com/ <<< 21:45:50 the gamemmmme 21:46:00 YOU'VE JUST LOST IT 21:46:06 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Connection reset by peer). 21:46:20 oh that game 21:46:25 i guess i did then 21:46:36 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 21:46:39 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:46:47 too much /b/, excuse me gentlemen 21:47:10 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 21:47:15 *mentlegen 21:47:31 too /b/ or not too /b/ 21:47:53 nooga: this is #esoteric, we lost it ages ago 21:47:54 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Client Quit). 21:48:26 so can anyone here control where they tickle? i can somewhat suppress it alread, but i cannot move it or yet 21:48:30 *already 21:48:36 *move it or create it 21:48:48 I'll tickle your prostate 21:48:54 oklopol: I still can't figure out what you're trying to say, even with the clarifications 21:48:56 when i press enter prematurely, it's a bit of a chaos as i write my sentences in random pieces. 21:49:02 AAAAAARGH, you had to mention tickling! 21:49:10 so can anyone here control where they tickle? i can somewhat suppress it already, but i cannot move it or create the sensation myself yet 21:49:18 * ais523 feather-dusters oerjan ----<<< 21:49:19 AnMaster: in python, you're acting on the same variable, period. <-- say I want to do something like this (C code): foo(&myvariable) 21:49:22 no pointers there 21:49:33 but when is it pass by value and when is it pass by reference 21:49:37 in python 21:49:38 ohh, you actually meant variable 21:49:50 oklopol, I meant pass by value/reference 21:49:51 you cannot pass a variable, period. 21:49:51 oklopol: itym "itching" 21:49:52 mostly 21:50:10 oklopol, so when I want to act on a class I need to return the class to get the result? 21:50:13 as in 21:50:14 oerjan: ah much better 21:50:20 foo(myobject) 21:50:21 ? 21:50:28 will that change myobject in place? 21:50:37 it is an instance of a custom class 21:50:47 tickling of course is much worse 21:50:50 (as in: not built in) 21:51:14 blah it's the semantics all languages have, i don't feel like trying to explain how it wurks. 21:51:24 well 21:51:28 you pass by reference 21:52:08 also no one answered me 21:52:13 myinteger=5 21:52:14 a reference bypass 21:52:18 foo(myinteger) 21:52:27 will that be pass by value or reference? 21:52:36 oklopol, also what question? 21:52:40 oklopol: i thought i implied a strong NO ... 21:52:59 oerjan: well indeeeeed 21:53:06 AnMaster: always by reference 21:53:17 integers are just immutable 21:53:25 that is, their methods return copies. 21:53:52 you need to think about copying in general, it's just not an issue when doing function calls. 21:54:24 btw does anyone else have the effect where they scratch some place that is itching, and sometimes this consistently causes somewhere _else_ to itch? 21:54:49 sure. 21:55:23 * oerjan blames acupuncture lines, or something :D 21:55:35 oklopol, oooh I see 21:55:40 that explains everything 21:55:43 it's most noticeable when it's someone else who's scratching you, the guiding process is like explaining a rollercoaster. 21:55:53 oklopol, and I need to care since I'm doing stuff with the C API 21:55:58 embedding python 21:56:15 no I didn't write it, I just have to maintain it 21:56:28 AnMaster: if you're doing low-level stuff i need to inform you the ubiquitous-pass-by-reference thing is just how i see it, i don't actually know that much. 21:56:33 *about python's details 21:56:55 especially not how it works under the hood. 21:57:05 and why do i keep saying prematurely :< 21:58:51 yaaay 21:59:08 the funny thing is that phenomenon happens even if i stop the itching somewhere mentally. 21:59:40 pthreads do the work for me, time for massive protocol design 22:02:06 ##1234567890 :DD 22:04:24 when is it? 22:04:56 $ date +%s 22:04:58 1234562690 22:05:00 not long, then 22:05:16 another hour or si, I won't be online then probably 22:05:17 *so 22:06:12 oerjan: ...didn't make sense at first, because i didn't open the song right away, and therefore didn't realize the song was about a hen named agda, thought agda was a verb there. 22:07:38 so i thought it was just a random path of references, the last in A->B->C->D only works in a pun if there's a relation between the first and last transitions imo. 22:07:53 but i don't know, i'm no pun theorist. 22:09:02 pun pun pun 22:09:14 isn't pun a little bit overused? 22:09:14 in the sun sun sun 22:09:52 maybe a puny bit 22:12:23 dra til helvete :D 22:13:49 oerjan: that was way below your usual standard 22:14:23 "puny" is kinda of a classic 22:14:26 *kind 22:15:46 ais523: nooga clearly described how low 22:21:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 22:22:33 1:09 to 1234567890! 22:22:58 $ while true; do sleep 1; date +%s; done 22:25:54 I think the world will explode 22:27:40 Just wait 'til 2038 for that :P 22:28:11 I wonder how bad the Y2038 bug will be? 22:28:24 I reckon there'll be a huge panic about it in about 2035, and everything will be fixed in time 22:38:28 is there any POSIX system function that allows to set file's last modification date? 22:38:38 yes, almost certainly 22:38:43 there's the command touch that does that 22:38:46 and it has to use /some/ API 22:39:28 why do you want to, by the way? just curious, there are at least 2 uses for touch that are relatively common 22:40:33 because i'm trying to help my friend, he's writing something like ummmm.... svn 22:40:41 and my job is to write the server 22:40:56 it's am idiotic school project 22:40:58 ah, hadn't thought of that one 22:41:03 an* 22:56:54 over 9000 errors again 22:59:12 ##1234567890 is the coolest thing i've ever seen 22:59:13 ever. 22:59:30 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 23:00:26 wow is that a busy channel 23:00:47 Yikes 23:00:48 I haven't seen this much crap in an IRC channel since efnet! 23:00:49 It is. 23:00:55 it's so awesome 23:01:15 reminds me of when i made my own ircd 23:01:39 May aaaaaall our timestamps beeeeeeeee forgot aaaaand neeeeeever are they siiiiiiiiigned! For todaaaaaaaaaaaay when we print deeeeeeeeecimal, there's a patterrrrrrrrn in UNIX tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiime 23:01:44 and my friend put his bot up, and a few guys copypasted about a million lines of commands for the bot, i just watched the flood all night 23:02:26 hey oklopol 23:02:29 hey 23:02:33 hey gregorr 23:02:35 hey ais523 23:03:59 noooo 23:04:03 +m'd :< 23:04:06 i knew it 23:04:23 yay join flood 23:04:28 i knew that too, but still awesome 23:05:18 while true ; do date ; date +%s ; sleep 1 ; clear ; done 23:05:39 preparations for printscreen :D 23:07:29 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 23:14:20 WTF?! 0x50000000 is on a Friday 13th too! (July, 2012) 23:14:37 oh noes 23:14:43 friday 13th on a round epoch number day... in 2012? 23:14:51 I think we now know when the end of the world is 23:14:59 wtf 23:15:00 Yup 23:15:10 using CET here 23:15:25 GregorR: that's in UTC, presumably 23:15:37 ais523: Yeah. 23:15:46 ais523: It's 11AM EST though, so it's Friday 13th in most timezones. 23:16:10 sob, 14 lut 2009, 00:15:55 CET 23:16:11 1234566955 23:16:23 i will happen soon ;d 23:17:11 ooh ooh ooh ooh yes! yes! don't stop!! 23:20:11 oh crap 23:20:17 i jizzed my pants 23:20:44 /list GregorR 23:20:58 Err 23:20:59 /whois GregorR 23:23:48 Hmm. Not all that long until 1234567890, UNIX time. 23:23:58 the 7 is now in place 23:24:06 pikhq: ##1234567890 <<< come it's cool 23:24:07 pikhq: Welcome to being the last person to notice that :P 23:24:12 I came and left. 23:24:16 But go to ###1234567890 instead 23:24:18 but... but 23:24:24 GregorR: I was aware, just now started watching. 23:24:29 indeed ++S.S is valid in C 23:24:55 nooga: Is that ++(S.S) or (++S).S? (++S).S makes no sense as far as I can guses. 23:24:57 *guess 23:25:21 ++(S.S) for cc 23:25:24 just tried 23:25:42 Maximum users seen in ##1234567890: 1110, currently: 1110 (100.0%), active: 402 (36.2%) 23:25:50 that's insane 23:25:57 a channel with 402 /active/ users? 23:26:21 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklofol. 23:26:36 -!- oklofol has changed nick to oklopol. 23:26:38 GregorR: don't believe? 23:27:16 nooga: I don't recall the precedence, I believe you if that's the same as ++(S.S) 23:27:38 * ais523 is trying to hold a conversation in ##1234567890, it seems funnier that way 23:30:30 8 IS IN PLACE 23:30:40 yes 23:30:48 9 and 0 come into place simultaneously 23:31:30 happy 1234567890, everyone! 23:32:31 happy cool timestamp to all 23:32:45 * ais523 loves programming holidays 23:33:25 Now to wait for 0x50000000, Friday the 13th, July 2012. 23:34:01 but... how come cool timestamps come less often than normal holidays :< 23:34:05 are they more special? 23:34:27 if i was op @ #1234567890 23:34:37 SCREENCAPPED :D 23:34:38 i would've banned everyone on the instant it happened :) 23:34:46 oklopol: the ban list there was full 23:34:57 but you can do more general banz 23:35:01 but I suppose +b *@*!* would do 23:35:05 nah, they should have done /cs recover 23:35:16 hehe 23:35:23 ##0x50000000 23:35:26 maybe even just before, just to be annoying. 23:35:45 http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8719/12345657890jz4.jpg taaadaaaaaaaaaaa 23:37:57 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:38:34 whaddaya think? :D 23:38:39 is it win? 23:39:33 hahaha 23:39:35 nice. 23:40:00 but not quite sir! 23:40:09 :) 23:40:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has left (?). 23:41:27 00:34 < oklopol> but you can do more general banz 23:41:42 I do most specific benz 23:42:05 a vintage mercedes-benz 23:42:56 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ see how one benz is exactly upon another benz 23:43:06 i see it. 23:45:48 YO DAWG, I HERD U LIKE THREADS, SO WE PUT A THREAD IN YOUR THREAD SO YOU CAN LOCK MUTEX WHILE YOU LOCK MUTEX 23:52:29 well 23:52:31 okay 23:52:42 it was a bit /b/ish 2009-02-14: 00:03:31 o 00:07:13 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:09:44 o 00:24:37 GregorR: i demand ops on ##0x50000000 00:27:40 thank you mister greggie 00:34:36 * GregorR is running a script to compile and run his program with every GCC optimization option (one by one), and time them. 00:34:55 all combinations too? 00:35:09 No, that would take too long (EXP is a bad complexity class :P ) 00:35:40 and what is the overall shape of the results? 00:35:47 It's not done yet. 00:36:02 well i don't know how many orthogonal options there are. 00:37:22 Probably a few, but this will at least get me somewhere. 00:38:15 there should be an option for getting the absolute best gcc can offer, no matter how long it takes 00:38:23 ahh 00:38:32 bed awaits 00:38:32 That wouldn't be difficult to write, it would just take 2^{number of options} time. 00:38:34 c u 00:38:44 like "optimize for N seconds" 00:38:51 -!- nooga has quit ("Lost terminal"). 00:39:53 i think i need to sleep too. 00:39:55 ~> 01:43:26 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:14:46 -!- Slereah has joined. 02:19:46 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 02:25:33 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 02:27:18 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:31:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:34:52 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:52:34 that doesn't handle PGO 02:52:52 ok 02:52:59 question for #esoteric 02:56:29 actually, I'm going to use prlog 02:56:31 :o 02:58:35 How dare you not ask your question. >:-( 03:41:49 -!- metaphysician has joined. 03:59:49 * pikhq has discovered the most pleasantly absurd DOS project... 03:59:56 HX DOS-Extender. 04:00:22 Implements a subset of Win32, sufficient for running many single-window GUI applications which use DirectDraw, GDI, or OpenGL. 04:00:58 One program that runs under it is... DOSbox. 04:09:04 Yeah, it's pretty cool. 04:09:28 And dosbox is actually useful, as putting layers between you and the game makes it run slower. 04:11:42 Yeah. It's even *more* absurd that it's genuinely useful. 04:11:56 (assuming you're in DOS, of course) 04:12:12 ... Hmm. I should try and get that XT in the room running some day. 04:35:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 04:44:56 -!- Pthing has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:44:56 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:44:58 -!- ehird has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:44:58 -!- GregorR has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:44:58 -!- comex has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:45:17 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:45:18 -!- rodgort has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:45:23 -!- Pthing has joined. 04:45:23 -!- ehird has joined. 04:45:23 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:45:23 -!- comex has joined. 04:45:23 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 04:45:57 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 04:45:57 -!- rodgort has joined. 07:46:03 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:54:11 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:58 -!- kar8nga has joined. 08:46:04 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 11:05:25 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:28:15 -!- Hiato has joined. 12:11:51 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 12:22:54 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:30:05 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi. 13:12:52 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 13:12:59 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:15:08 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:21:51 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:22:47 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 13:26:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:36:16 -!- Corun has joined. 13:56:23 -!- oklopol has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:56:37 -!- oklopol has joined. 13:57:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:58:08 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:04:25 -!- oklofok has joined. 14:04:47 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:09:32 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:15:45 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:15:45 -!- ehird has joined. 14:21:23 -!- Slereah has joined. 14:21:57 00:36:27 it's funny how every technical chanel has an extremely knowledgable person who is also a total dick 14:21:59 00:36:40 is it ehird? 14:22:01 00:37:00 trbw is #math's, zhivago is ##c's, riadstrat is #scheme's 14:22:03 00:37:04 we don't have one 14:22:05 yeah 14:22:07 totally me 14:22:09 :p 14:22:11 also, zhivago is tolerable because poppavic is worse 14:22:13 riastradthtdhjthdjth is really irritating though 14:22:23 is that nick too long for freenode? 14:23:11 dunno, but he has a stupid name that nobody can spell. 14:23:26 this is a good thing because if you have trouble replying he talks to you less 14:23:35 09:44:08 * AnMaster sighs. 14:23:35 09:44:20 Why this recent interested in eso-codewar? 14:23:49 god, does AnMaster have to complain every time something is happening that he's not interested in? 14:24:04 it looked like curiosity rather than complaint 14:24:23 ais523, you are correct 14:24:27 "* AnMaster sighs." is pretty much complaint, especially in future context " well I never found it very interesting" 14:26:01 10:45:06 I think it's legal Haskell and Prolog, but only if you define operators in each 14:26:03 not haskell, no 14:26:10 ++ would have to be a binary operator 14:26:12 even if you override ++ to be unary? 14:26:15 you can't 14:26:16 or can't you do that? 14:26:18 ah, ok 14:26:20 operator names can only be binary 14:26:26 operator name = symbol+ 14:27:15 10:52:06 ais523, also ++ in erlang means "concat lists", and is useless because it is slow on large lists unless you concat one element at head, and then you would use [H|T] anyway 14:27:26 10:52:33 so useless in any real code 14:27:27 heh 14:27:29 ehird, see also further discussion 14:27:30 (++) is the same in Haskell, but efficient due to laziness 14:27:44 interesting 14:27:48 ah, of course 14:27:57 the concat doesn't happen until you've finished reading the first list 14:27:59 and from there, it's trivial 14:28:00 right 14:28:08 it's just: 14:28:13 [] ++ b = b 14:28:22 (x:xs) ++ b = x : xs ++ b 14:31:15 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:33:08 11:00:10 i don't think so. ++ S . S implies S is a function and i don't think you can achieve that. 14:33:09 sure you can 14:33:12 data constructor 14:34:30 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:35:00 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:35:06 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:47:26 11:49:03 (in winhugs it's :type bleh) 14:47:29 _winhugs_? 14:47:36 whoa, it's 2003. 14:48:21 and the 49th day of November/ 14:48:37 verily. 14:50:16 12:28:07 $$%d{4} would be a deprecated syntax for $$$d{4} 14:50:23 hahahahahahaha I love perl I'm going to kill larry wall. 14:51:02 I love perl too, but not to the extent when I want to kill its author 14:51:09 12:30:30 oerjan, yeah, I noticed: max x = if head x == 0 then tail x else map head (groupBy (\x y -> x>y) ((0:(reverse x))) 14:51:14 wow that function makes no sense at all. 14:51:18 to be even more fun, $$%d{4} would be correct in Perl6, whereas $$$d{4} wouldn't 14:51:41 in Perl5, I'd probably write it as $${$d{4}} to be clearer, though 14:51:55 that makes it really clear yeah 14:51:56 or even ${${$d{4}}} to avoid a potential ambiguity with the nonexistent %$ hash 14:52:04 LOL Hiato was testing his function as the builtin 14:52:08 (he wrote max and tested maximum) 14:52:11 hahaha :DD 14:52:21 i wonder how many tries it took 14:52:27 1, obviously 14:52:33 no, I bet he had a serious bug. 14:52:42 but he tested the wrong function 14:52:44 so it worked first time 14:52:54 it was a joke. 14:52:55 12:37:37 oerjan: yeah, so is length, but that didn't stop me from writing len x = if x==[] then 0 else rlen (x,0); rlen (x,n) = if head x==sum x then n+1 else rlen(tail x,n+1) and then len (x:xs) = if xs==[] then 1 else ln xs+1 14:52:56 what the frack 14:53:02 have you written a markov chain that outputs haskell 14:53:22 "that didn't stop me from writing", brilliant 14:53:23 -!- Judofyr has quit ("rebooting"). 14:53:36 12:40:23 I raelise now 14:53:39 aliens 14:53:48 /obscure 14:54:35 heh, awesome: if head x == sum x ... 14:54:47 Hiato> rlen [0,1,-1] 14:54:54 olsner: I know XD 14:55:03 ski__: no, len 14:55:04 not rlen 14:55:07 len calls rlen 14:55:08 where are you getting this from? 14:55:13 olsner: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.02.13 14:55:14 um, yes 14:55:41 len [0,1,-1] = rlen ([0,1,-1],0) = 0+1 = 1 14:55:52 hahahahahaah 14:55:58 what the heckkkk 14:56:19 (since `head [0,1,-1] = 0 = sum [0,1,-1]') 14:56:35 13:56:28 AnMaster: if you're doing low-level stuff i need to inform you the ubiquitous-pass-by-reference thing is just how i see it, i don't actually know that much. 14:56:40 yeah, python is all pass by object reference 14:56:45 that is, it passes a reference to the object in the variable 14:56:49 not a reference to the variable 14:57:11 sorry, I've been away for a whoooole day so I'm megalogreading. 14:59:37 wow, that haskell code is awesome 15:00:02 it's expressionist haskell. 15:00:29 14:28:11 I wonder how bad the Y2038 bug will be? 15:00:29 14:28:24 I reckon there'll be a huge panic about it in about 2035, and everything will be fixed in time 15:00:34 Hopefully we'll all be on 64-bit or higher systems by then. 15:00:38 yes 15:00:54 except for a few critical government systems, which are still 16-bit for some odd reason 15:00:54 Funnay option: the singularity will upgrade us all to infinity-bits, but time is irrelevant and bendable at our will so we forget all about it. 15:01:23 I think the singularity won't actually happen 15:01:31 look at wikipedia, it was exponential for a while then became linear 15:01:43 I expect something similar will happen to technological progress 15:01:59 ais523: I'm skeptical too, but for another reason: I'm not sure humans can create smarter-than-human AI. 15:02:12 After all, if we can understand intelligence smarter than us, that's a paradox. We'd have to be that smart. 15:02:48 I may be incorrect, but I haven't seen a good argument why. 15:03:49 (More generally, I don't see how X intelligence can understand X+Y intelligence, for any X and Y.) 15:05:21 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:05:37 ##1234567890: 15:05:38 [15:05:23] hi guys am I too late for the party?? 15:05:51 was there any response? 15:05:55 also, it was ridiculous 15:05:57 [15:05:39] indeed 15:05:57 [15:05:45] :slowpoke: 15:06:00 it was a massively spam channel 15:06:01 define ridiculous 15:06:11 there were over 1000 people there 15:06:16 and over 400 of them were talking simultaneously 15:06:16 hee 15:06:30 400 people talking simultaneously really is ridiculous 15:06:37 the most active channel I've seen was, I think, the lilo memorial channel. 15:06:51 comex pasted Agora's rule 105 into the channel, and it just got lost in the general mess 15:06:54 where everybody's "rest in piece" was a unique and special snowflake that everyone must see! 15:07:03 what happened to lilo? 15:07:11 ais523: he died in 2006 15:07:14 bike got hit by a car 15:07:17 -> coma -> dead 15:07:23 oh, I thought it was a bootloader 15:07:24 you didn't know? 15:07:26 oh. 15:07:26 ha 15:07:29 ais523: founder of freenode 15:07:31 is there a person by that name too? 15:07:33 ah, and ok 15:07:36 that would make sense 15:08:17 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:08:32 [15:07:54] i camed here when there was 100 peoples and dont part it bigger then 40 min when i was banned) 15:08:34 -!- kar8nga1 has joined. 15:08:50 also, the ban list ended up full 15:08:59 Unsurprising 15:09:12 but there was no time to find a staffer to increase it before the event happened 15:09:16 15:01:15 reminds me of when i made my own ircd 15:09:18 I still wanna do that 15:09:29 15:14:43 friday 13th on a round epoch number day... in 2012? 15:09:29 15:14:51 I think we now know when the end of the world is 15:09:32 I want to write an IRC client in INTERCAL 15:09:34 -!- kar8nga2 has joined. 15:09:38 Spacetime will bend so that it is 21st december. 15:09:44 ? 15:09:53 2012-12-21 is the definitive End of the World day. 15:10:00 ah, ok 15:10:05 According to New Agers making assumptions about the Mayans. 15:10:13 Man, it'll be so funny to see that day pass. 15:10:14 yes, the Mayans didn't predict the end of the world 15:10:20 I predict mass suicides immediately beforehand. 15:10:23 just a mass extinction, in which all but a few humans are transformed into animals 15:10:33 so, no change? 15:10:33 :P 15:10:34 and the world's terrain massively changes, although they didn't know what into 15:11:07 I bet there was an off-by-one 15:11:10 and it's actually the day after. 15:12:08 well, I don't want the end of the world to happen 15:12:20 how come the Mayans, in particular, get all the credence for prediciting it? 15:12:40 because they're mystic and supposedly really clever. 15:12:41 Discordianism thinks something major will happen in 9661, how could it if the world had ended at the time? 15:12:45 and because new agers are idiots 15:14:19 I think I've just found the best Slashdot car analogy ever: http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1127743&cid=26852283 15:14:39 amazing 15:15:26 now I just have to figure out what it means... 15:15:44 I think it's God, converted to a string. 15:16:56 16:38:15 there should be an option for getting the absolute best gcc can offer, no matter how long it takes 15:17:03 -O9001 15:17:04 -!- kar8nga1 has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 15:17:14 -F from C-INTERCAL, obviously 15:18:59 hmm...IMAP lets you forge arbitrary messages on the server? neat 15:20:37 http://offsystem.sourceforge.net/ <-- Copyright law intent fail 15:21:43 I think they're missing the point 15:21:52 Very. 15:21:56 clearly, it's the data that's copyrighted not the encoding 15:22:03 and equally clearly, the data exists, or it couldn't be retrieved 15:22:06 Yes. 15:22:16 And also, semantic lies are useless. 15:22:18 It's all about intent. 15:22:22 [ see http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/lawpoli/colour/2004061001.php ] 15:23:05 -!- kar8nga has quit (Connection timed out). 15:25:39 -!- kar8nga2 has quit (Connection timed out). 15:27:32 -!- kar8nga has joined. 15:34:22 incidentally, Mon Feb 16 16:51:37 UTC 2009 is 0x49999999 seconds since the epoch 15:34:26 although that's clearly cheating a bit 15:35:31 heh, http://www.google.com/logos/unix1234567890.gif 15:35:35 surely 16:51:38 is more interesting 15:35:38 oh, right 15:35:39 hex 15:35:40 if even Google celebrates it, it must be a major holiday 15:35:52 ais523: I hope that only went up for one second 15:36:04 I don't know, although reports are it wasn't up for very long 15:36:05 also, the 0 at the end is so. arbitrary. 15:36:08 so maybe it was just the one second 15:36:12 0123456789 was more impressive 15:36:23 the 0's to the right of a 9 on a computer keyboard 15:36:34 I know 15:36:37 it's still arbitrary as hell 15:37:24 0123456789 = 29 nov 1973, 21:33:09 15:37:28 1234625847 15:37:32 1234625851 15:37:34 1234625853 15:37:36 1234625856 15:37:55 it's amazing how fast a few tens of thousands of seconds can fly past 15:38:07 yep 15:38:21 I wonder how many planck times in a second. (note: trivial to find out.) 15:38:32 although, 15:38:42 According to quantum theory, 1 Planck time should be the smallest unit of time physics can reason about in a meaningful way. But according to news reports, analyses of Hubble Space Telescope Deep Field images in 2003 raised a possible discrepancy. Very distant images that should have been blurry were not, contradicting the notion that Planck time is indeed the smallest measurable unit of time.[5][6][7] 15:38:43 time should be continuou 15:38:44 s 15:38:54 it's purer 15:39:20 5.39124 * (10^(-44)) = 5.39124 × 10-44 15:39:21 thx google 15:39:34 er, oops. 15:39:45 * ehird read the wp article wrong 15:42:27 -!- kar8nga has quit. 15:48:49 ais523: that's surprisingly ugly/hacked up for a google logos 15:48:50 *logo 15:48:59 also, kind of obscure for them to reference. 15:49:18 -!- kar8nga has joined. 15:49:18 http://www.google.com/holidaylogos.html not here 15:49:22 well, it's a UNIX time celebration, a UNIX command makes sense 15:49:29 well yeah 15:49:30 I don't think it was a holiday logo, more a one-off 1-second joke 15:49:59 if it was really only up for a second, I wanna marry the guy that did that 15:50:03 wait, is google based in california? fuck. 15:50:15 /lame 15:50:38 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 15:50:52 http://www.google.com/customlogos.html this page is horrendous, but, go to the end and see retro google logos 15:50:57 totally hilarious 15:56:02 ehird: the logo was only up for a few minutes, I think 15:56:11 aw 15:56:12 I checked google before and after, and it was up, but then 30 minutes later it was down 15:56:18 hi chuck, haven't seen you before 15:56:40 I don't remember seeing chuck talk here before 15:56:44 although it's a common enough name 15:56:51 chuck: what brings you here 15:56:55 hi ehird and ais523 15:57:05 i dunno, i just had this window open and I thought I'd look to see what it was ^_^' 15:57:12 :) 15:57:16 clicked on a link here by mistake? 15:57:24 welcome, anyway 15:57:28 we should googlebomb Barack Obama to this place or something 15:57:30 heh, thanks 15:57:31 ^bf ,[.,]!Say something impressive, fungot 15:57:31 Say something impressive, fungot 15:57:39 hmm 15:57:42 that contained the words 15:57:44 Say something else impressive fungot! 15:57:45 ais523: if that's not apparent without knowledge of a fuctional language. if only inequalities are supported in gauche's native encoding? 15:57:50 "we", "should", "bomb", "barack", "obama" 15:57:52 should we be worried? 15:58:01 well, we shouldn't 15:58:23 * chuck sucks at brainfuck and all other esoteric langs. 15:58:25 ^style 15:58:26 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp 15:58:31 ^style ic 15:58:32 Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual) 15:58:41 ^bf +++++++++++[>+++++++<-]>. 15:58:41 M 15:58:42 fungot: let's mess with this style a bit more, I haven't seen it for a while 15:58:43 ais523: the j-intercal implementation of this sentence was going to write a portable program. 15:58:44 yey 15:58:50 hahaha 15:59:04 fungot: obviously, it changed its mind 15:59:05 ais523: e621 error type 621 encountered at runtime. 15:59:16 fungot is broken! 15:59:17 ehird: the parentheses here are those that the c-intercal compiler, what operating system. however, a compiler). the dormant thread in which it would be allowed by placing them between' and other such system libraries. if you do somehow find a copy onto the code to be precise, in situations where a group is opened inside an array subscript 15:59:18 :D 15:59:34 fungot: that makes considerably less sense than before... 15:59:35 ais523: the clc-intercal compiler, but an attempt to mix those with intercal) are created by multiple `come from's or `next from'. 16:00:05 do we have any esobots in here at the moment, other than fungot? 16:00:06 ais523: this is to allow abstaining from the previous character code, and anywhere that c source code form; this means that before using it, create a choicepoint is created containing the syntax is 16:00:32 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[>++<-]>.>++++++++++[>++++<-]>+. 16:00:33 :) 16:00:43 woo 16:01:15 chuck: fungot is written in befunge-98 16:01:16 ehird: this restriction was not implemented at all by most mainstream languages. the explanation is in clc-intercal ( which deprecates `next'.) 16:01:32 chuck: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 16:01:33 ehird: however, this means that the number, and j-intercal. computed `come from' behaviour, the most recent existing version. 16:02:00 wow, it's only after watching fungot chatter for a while that I realise how concerned I was with portability when writing the INTERCAL manual 16:02:01 ais523: using gnu tar tar xzvf ick-0-29.pax.gz or tar xqvf ick-0-29.pax.bz2 tar xvf ick-0-29.pax or bunzip2 ick-0-29.pax.bz2 tar xvf ick-0-29.pax or gunzip ick-0-29.pax.gz tar xvf ick-0-29.pax or bunzip2 ick-0-29.pax.bz2 tar xvf ick-0-29.pax 16:02:03 ehird: haha, nice 16:02:27 I'm /almost/ tempted to try to run that command 16:02:35 i know someone that wrote an extension of brainfuck to write a brainfuck bot that parses brainfuck 16:03:05 -!- kar8nga2 has joined. 16:05:27 oklofok: hi 16:06:25 omfg 16:06:28 my hostname just got cahnged behind my back 16:06:30 how dare it 16:06:36 -!- kar8nga has quit (Connection timed out). 16:07:20 -!- kar8nga3 has joined. 16:08:00 -!- kar8nga3 has changed nick to kar8nga. 16:08:24 ehird: what was it, and what is it now? 16:08:40 was bournemouth, and os x changed it to elliott-hirds-imac behind my back somehow. 16:08:53 that's a ridiculous change 16:09:02 ah, I see why it happened 16:09:08 technically, it shouldn't have persisted past the upgrade anyway 16:09:12 so it working was just a fluke 16:09:54 fixed 16:10:05 sudo ed /etc/hostconfig; $; a; HOSTNAME=bournemouth; .; w; q 16:10:15 guess I have to restart, grumble 16:10:42 ed? 16:10:51 yes, ed. 16:11:59 -!- kar8nga2 has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 16:12:16 ais523: why "ed?"? 16:13:00 it seems strange for you to use for a quick edit 16:13:09 given that vi is almost certainly available, and has all the same commands 16:13:21 vi does not have an identical command-set 16:13:27 near enough 16:13:33 nope 16:13:35 in that exaple, 16:13:36 $ = G 16:13:39 a = o 16:13:44 . = 16:13:48 w = :w 16:13:50 q = q 16:32:08 -!- kar8nga_ has joined. 16:33:09 -!- kar8nga has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:33:36 -!- kar8nga_ has changed nick to kar8nga. 16:42:01 i wonder why anyone uses the gnu userland 16:42:03 :| 16:42:15 because it has so many random useful features? 16:42:24 random, yes, useful, uh... 16:43:56 -!- kar8nga has quit. 16:44:16 grr, organizing ~/Code is hard 16:44:29 I just have so many random projects that I dunno how to avoid having 1,000+ directories in it 16:44:59 I have a ~/esoteric 16:45:11 I have ~/Code/esolangs now but I dislike i t 16:45:16 and separate directories for non-eso projects 16:45:32 ditto, but you don't understand how many projects I have 16:45:47 how many are started and quickly abandoned? 16:46:00 99% 16:46:01 % ls /Previous\ Systems.localized/2009-02-11_1200/Users/ehird/Documents/Code|wc -l 16:46:01 805 16:46:22 (% ls -R /Previous\ Systems.localized/2009-02-11_1200/Users/ehird/Documents/Code|wc -l, on the other hand, hasn't terminated yet.) 16:46:26 now it has 16:46:27 28631 16:46:37 (note: I do have some downloaded projects in here, but even so) 16:46:41 (as in, not my code) 16:47:43 $ ls -R /home/ais523/esoteric/ | wc -l 16:47:44 151580 16:47:52 that's cheating, though, I think 16:48:01 I'm pretty sure there's at least one gcc source tree in there somewhere, possibly two 16:48:07 heh 16:49:16 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:49:36 wow, we last changed our topic days ago 16:50:05 2009-02-06 16:50:08 -!- ehird has set topic: 07:38:13 --- topic: set to '#esoteric. THEY are the (not so secret) world goverment. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page.' by ehird. 16:50:10 err 16:50:11 oops 16:50:23 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric. THEY are the (not so secret) world goverment. http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page.. 16:50:35 (technically, the logs are on bespin.org; tunes.org just happens to be hosted on bespin 16:50:44 ) 16:53:05 hmm, wonder what I should write el ircd in 16:53:24 INTERCAL 16:53:45 no 16:53:49 :D 16:53:57 Funge? 16:54:01 no 16:54:02 :D 16:54:04 it's pretty high-level as esolangs go 16:54:11 redcode 16:54:17 no 16:54:17 :D 16:54:19 that isn't even an esolang, technically speaking 16:55:36 It's more of a domain-specific language, really. 16:56:19 grr... why does redcode not have preincrement 16:59:06 or a command to make programs work backwards, that would work just as well 17:08:09 btw, I discussed an OISC corewar with impomatic 17:08:15 we couldn't find an OISC that could do an imp in one instruction 17:08:18 :( 17:08:40 OISC corewar, I love it 17:09:09 ais523: yep, it has several odd requirements 17:09:10 there are MOV-based OISCs, with memory-mapped instruction pointers and arithmetic 17:09:10 like: 17:09:13 also 17:09:16 that sucks 17:09:17 they could do imps, but not much else easily 17:09:19 that's just cheating 17:09:24 it's just moving instructions into memory 17:09:25 lam 17:09:26 e 17:09:33 ehird: it's how WireWorld was proved a bounded-storage machine 17:09:35 anyway, all addresses have to be relative to the ip 17:09:37 stuff like that is fun :D 17:09:56 what about a MiniMAX corewar? 17:10:17 meh 17:10:25 probably wouldn't work, because you can't safely read or write to any element in MiniMAX unless you have a nearby known instruction 17:10:31 yeah 17:13:02 ais523: what were your BF joust ideas? I'm working on my own hill 17:13:17 with a web interface that DOESN'T require you select each competitor manually... 17:13:27 I'm also thinking of it showing a view of the tape 17:13:35 with your competitor's current cell highlighted 17:13:39 pretty much here, I was planning mostly the tape view 17:13:40 (animated) 17:13:50 except I was planning something that showed both programs, as more of a practice thing 17:13:54 ais523: what 17:13:58 I was asking your ideas for the mechanics. 17:14:09 oh, mechanics 17:14:45 same as before, except . is explicit NOP, tape length is from 10 to 50 inclusive (uniform distribution), you lose if your flag is at 0 at the end of two consecutive cycles (it can be -+ or something in between) 17:15:09 if Goethe's unwilling to make it official, I'll happily play you at it unofficially 17:15:24 I like those, except for explicit NOP I'm probably making any non-BF char a nop 17:17:54 then you can't have comments easily 17:18:13 and if you think about it, a . is a one-cycle nop if you have "output" but it isn't connected to anything 17:18:27 ais523: comments are useless 17:18:32 since others won't see them 17:18:37 also, this is useful for a nano hill 17:18:41 i.e., you can do length limits sanely 17:18:55 ah yes, I was going to propose a relatively small length limit 17:19:24 I'm going to have multiple hills, probably 17:19:29 Free-for-all unlimited classical hill 17:19:30 nano hill 17:19:33 cycle hill 17:19:33 etc 17:19:39 if you have arbitrary-length programs that are limited to only run for a finite length of time, you can do if(*p==0), if(*p!=0), while(*p==0), and while(*p!=0) each in one cycle 17:19:49 but the program ends up massively long because it needs to be duplicated a lot 17:20:03 -!- alex89ru has joined. 17:20:23 yes 17:20:23 still 17:20:33 err 17:20:38 not in one cycle... 17:20:40 cycle = instruction 17:20:51 yes, in one cycle, for the branch 17:20:58 you have to unroll the while loops 17:21:31 ah 17:21:34 in my scoring, btw, 17:21:38 err 17:21:40 my cycle scoring, 17:22:08 ,[.,] with input "abc" would take 9 cycles 17:22:13 executing like: 17:22:30 , [ . , ] . , ] . , ] 17:22:39 sounds fair 17:22:45 err, that's 11 cycles 17:22:50 remember to implement defined semantics for simultaneous ] with + 17:22:59 huh? 17:23:00 it doesn't matter what they are, but they should be fair and consistent 17:23:17 if one program runs ] and the other one runs +, should the ] test the original or incremented value? 17:23:33 hmm, I don't think ] should execute each loop cycle 17:23:35 I think it should be 17:23:41 , [ . , [ . , [ . , ] 17:23:44 yeah, that makes sense 17:23:49 [ = start of loop iteration 17:23:51 ] = end of loop 17:24:06 ais523: ah 17:24:18 ehird: that doesn't really make sense from a programmatic point of view, though 17:24:22 also, it doesn't really matter 17:24:29 yes, I'm trying for purity here 17:24:39 purrrrity 17:25:11 ais523: it'd check the original value 17:25:17 since ] is never actually executed in my expansion ther 17:25:17 e 17:25:28 and by the time [ is executed, we've already decided to loop again 17:25:41 on the other hand 17:25:53 you could argue that you should never hit a [ when the current cell will be 0 inside the loop 17:25:55 so hm 17:26:40 , [ . , ] . , ] . , ] is a better semantic, then 17:26:44 hm 17:26:53 ,[.,] with no input should be ,] 17:26:56 as an execution path, I think 17:26:58 ais523: do you agree? 17:27:11 I think ,[ 17:27:15 and the [ jumps to after the ] 17:27:17 I think that nop loops should cost one cycle, even though they do nothing, since the checking of the current cell is some computation 17:27:20 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:27:23 yes 17:27:24 ais523: ah, agreed 17:28:00 so the formal semantics of [ are "loop started, jump past end of ] after checking if = 0" 17:28:09 and the formal semantics of ] are "jump back to [" 17:28:11 but that'd actually make it 17:28:17 , [ . , ] [ . , ] [ . , ] 17:28:24 which, while pretty, is costly 17:28:25 no, the formal semantics of ] are "jump to the right of the matching ] if != 0" 17:28:31 err 17:28:32 fail? 17:28:40 read that sentence 17:28:42 "the matching [" 17:29:06 that duplication of logic irritates me 17:29:19 only one instruction should be operated each loop tick, and it should be the only instruction that can check for cell value 17:29:42 that duplication of logic is a common way to do BF looping, though 17:29:52 and it's the neatest way IMO, being symmetrical 17:29:59 i know, but that's not pure 17:30:02 otherwise you need 0-cycle jumps and other stupidities like that 17:30:17 and what do you mean "not pure", testing both ends seems pretty pure to me 17:30:19 each command should be completely separate from the rest 17:30:22 your version has [ and ] doing different things! 17:30:27 i.e., no commands should duplicate the purpose of another command 17:30:38 thus, only one command should do "check the value of the current cell" 17:30:54 [ and ] are opposites; [ jumps on zero, ] jumps on nonzero 17:31:07 right, but they both make a jump depending on the current cell 17:31:09 just like only one command should do "change the value of the current cell", or "change the location of the pointer"? 17:31:12 and that duplication makes the instruction set less pure 17:31:19 BF has always had /two/ commands doing anything in particular, which are opposites 17:31:23 ais523: we're assuming bignum here, because it's also pure 17:31:30 ehird: what? in BF Joust? are you mad? 17:31:34 no 17:31:40 I'm coming up with cycle semantics for brainfuck that are pure 17:31:45 and then applying them to joust 17:32:00 your definition of pure is ridiculous, you may as well eliminate - and < if you're going that way 17:32:16 with bignums, + and - cannot replace each other. and with a non-wrapping tape, < and > cannot either. 17:32:35 and [ and ] cannot replace each other either! 17:32:40 you clearly need both of them for a loop 17:32:52 they are both, at heart, conditional jump instructions 17:33:09 still, they both check the value of the current cell and jump based on it 17:33:13 and there's no reason to break symmetry by implementing [ as "jump to ] and test there" or ] as "jump to [ and test there" 17:33:14 I think only one of them should do that 17:33:34 what I'm saying is, an unconditional jump is a lot less pure than a conditional jump, if there's only one thing you can unconditionally jump to and that's a conditional jump 17:34:09 i don't want an unconditional jump 17:34:18 as I said, I want only one command to be executed each cycle 17:34:26 Currently, I'm tempted to have ] never actually execute 17:34:38 ,[.,] with no input = , [ 17:34:41 yes, I agree 17:34:50 ,[.,] with input "abc" = , [ . , [ . , [ . , 17:34:55 and the jump-at-each-end semantic is clearly the neatest, most symmetrical and purest way to do that 17:35:07 if you like, think of [ as for jumping forwards and ] as for jumping backwards 17:35:17 just like you need both < and >, you need to be able to jump both forwards and backwards 17:35:28 hmm, I'm tempted to have ] execute in one case: 17:35:33 when the loop ends, [ jumps onto the ] 17:35:35 ,[.,] with no input = , [ ] 17:35:37 ,[.,] with input "abc" = , [ . , [ . , [ . , ] 17:36:05 ugh, that's wasting a cycle for no good reason 17:36:09 ,[.,] with no input = , [ 17:36:18 ,[.,] with input "abc" = , [ . , ] . , ] . , ] 17:36:41 by your definition, ,[.,] with input "abc" would be , [ . , [ , [ . , [ ] 17:36:43 which is silly 17:36:48 no 17:36:58 "when the loop ends, [ jumps onto the ]" 17:36:59 itd be , [ . , [ . , [ . , ] 17:37:02 no 17:37:04 when the loop ENDS 17:37:07 as in, no more iterations 17:37:13 so, in other words, ] tests its argument, but only if it's 0 17:37:18 no 17:37:19 if its argument isn't 0, the [ runs instead 17:37:19 ] is a nop 17:37:28 well, what's testing the argument, then? 17:37:32 does the test materialise out of thin air? 17:38:23 sort of. 17:38:41 I don't get how you can claim that all this is purer than my method 17:38:53 [17:36:09] ,[.,] with no input = , [ 17:38:56 this is wrong, IMO 17:39:01 ehird: how can it be? 17:39:04 it's too cheap for a not-running loop 17:39:05 the . and , inside the loop never run 17:39:08 ehird: no, it isn't 17:39:10 I think a not running loop should cost two cycles 17:39:14 it's exactly as cheap as it ought to be 17:39:21 and I bet you in Goethe's rules, a nonrunning loop costs one cycle 17:39:30 a not running loop is an if, it should only cost one cycle 17:39:36 a; if(b) {c;} d; 17:39:42 say b is false, should that if really cost two cycles 17:40:43 yes 17:40:53 loop starting & loop ending should both be one cycle, after all, that's symmetric isn't it? 17:41:02 loop skipping should also be one cycle 17:41:13 ehird: how many cycles should loop iterating be? 17:41:17 one, clearly 17:41:21 one 17:41:23 so loop skipping should also be 1 17:41:28 execute 0 times = 1 cycle 17:41:32 execute 1 time = 2 cycles 17:41:38 execute 2 times = 3 cycles 17:41:39 and so on 17:41:48 you want the first two entries to both be 2 cycles, for some reason 17:41:51 hmm, fine. 18:01:07 hmm... 18:01:14 It looks like I'm on the road to writing my own mail client, 18:02:41 :x 18:06:46 -!- Judofyr has joined. 18:07:07 hey Judofyr, what mail client do you use. 18:07:23 ehird: gmail for personal, Mail.app for work 18:07:33 bah. 18:07:35 yeah 18:07:36 I know 18:08:23 I love gmail except it'd be nicer as a native app. so right now I'm clutching at straws to avoid learning Interface Builder & Cocoa & IMAP & POP to make my own damn client 18:08:27 oh, & SMTP 18:09:59 I wish gmail had proper tree-view (for mailing-lists) 18:10:12 other than that, I'm pretty happy with it 18:10:21 Judofyr: I've thought about that, and concluded that: 18:10:46 the same conversation view, but with a thread-tree view to the side that auto-updates as you scroll (to select the current one), and lets you jump to somewhere in the thread,w 18:10:48 would be useful 18:11:01 (per-thread, ofc, since most of the time I doubt it'd be useful) 18:11:10 ehird: Obj-C? 18:11:26 Judofyr: I'd avoid using obj-c by using a binding. 18:11:27 :P 18:11:35 RubyCocoa? 18:11:40 something like that. 18:11:53 MacRuby? 18:11:57 something like that. 18:12:00 :p 18:12:02 :P 18:12:03 secret? 18:12:06 nope. 18:12:16 I just am desperately trying to avoid coding my own damn client. 18:12:32 because I hate fussing around with gui code 18:12:35 seen sop? 18:12:38 also, because IMAP sucks 18:12:42 http://sop.rubyforge.org 18:12:44 sup? yeah, but it's console based. 18:15:03 in conclusion, software sucks 18:15:42 I'm still surprised no-one has built The Perfect Mail Client 18:15:59 I'm pretty sure people have trie 18:15:59 d 18:16:20 Judofyr: the problem is that IMAP really, really sucks 18:16:25 you can only use one folder at a time! 18:16:36 also, imap is more or less completely incompatible with doing labels 18:16:50 true 18:17:40 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:17:40 gmail has it easy because they don't need to support things like imap 18:17:45 well, they do support i t 18:17:48 but they can just hack it in 18:17:55 and natively use their own thing 18:21:01 * Judofyr wants Gmail API 18:21:48 but yeah, ew making GUIs :( 18:21:53 -!- kar8nga_ has joined. 18:22:27 Shoooes! 18:22:55 yeah um shoes kind of doesn't really have the rich GUI components useful for making a fully-featured, native email client. 18:22:58 you know. like toolbars 18:23:24 true. shoes is much more about plain fun 18:23:34 unfortunately email is very unfun 18:25:00 a better path to making a client is to make a nice API for imap and suchlike then build a client on top, but unfortunately the client will almost certainly require a huge restructuring of the api that you did not anticipate... 18:26:24 -!- kar8nga_ has quit (Client Quit). 18:27:06 -!- kar8nga_ has joined. 18:27:49 -!- kar8nga has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:27:53 -!- kar8nga_ has changed nick to kar8nga. 18:32:44 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:33:41 oh wow, bloopsaphone is awesome 18:33:50 http://github.com/why/bloopsaphone/tree 18:34:07 heh, I just thought about it :P 18:36:25 I am totally using this for a haccordian-like thing 18:39:39 -!- Corun has joined. 18:47:45 data constructor 18:47:48 hm true 18:47:59 but ++ at the start means it's a non-starter 18:48:07 my mind is going, i can feel it 18:48:23 ehird: i interpreted it as whether it could be a legal fragment 18:48:27 ah 18:48:54 the ++ still needs to be redefined though 18:49:08 yes 18:49:41 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:53:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:53:10 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:53:50 lost connection to isp, hope that was just a one-time thing 18:54:36 was about to say: or you could redefine just . 18:54:55 nah 18:54:59 ++ S is inherently a type error 18:55:00 since S is not [a] 18:55:06 oh, it's ++(S.S) 18:55:09 ok then, yeah 18:56:35 bloopsaphone is what I've wanted for aaages 18:58:35 what does it do? 18:58:45 I reckon there'll be a huge panic about it in about 2035, and everything will be fixed in time 18:59:12 no, because no one but the geeks will be able to understand the fuzz, since it's not a BIG ROUND number 18:59:15 ais523: http://github.com/why/bloopsaphone/blob/b6fc0c789e81574099169fbf498adfaed9130b8b/README 18:59:25 so no one will actually pay to fix it in time 18:59:32 *fuss 19:00:11 I bet they will 19:00:19 PHBs will know slightly more about computers back then 19:00:33 * oerjan is only playing a cynic for humorous purposes 19:00:34 they'll hear about a doomsday on which computers will all stop working 19:00:43 and beg their engineers to make sure they aren't caught up in it 19:01:20 back then <- overflow reference? :D 19:01:30 in my brain 19:01:44 my brain seems to place just-before-2038 as before today 19:01:50 maybe because it's happened once already, in 2000 19:02:01 although that one was relatively small 19:02:05 i bet your brain uses 16-bit time_t 19:02:07 incidentally, some 2038 bugs have already happened 19:02:07 or something 19:02:12 hm except - islamic terrorists (or whatever replaces them) will sow misinformation to make the PHBs think it's all a hoax, and they're too stupid to understand who is right... 19:02:16 due to someone who used 1 billion seconds to represent forever 19:02:20 heh 19:03:06 by that time it might be the angry maldivian diaspora 19:03:11 as for that bloopsaphone, I was really disappointed when Microsoft deprecated the API to do that 19:03:18 it existed in win 3.1, still worked in 95 19:03:26 but had stopped working by XP, which is annoying 19:03:42 they wanted people to use a weird MIDI+WAV+video scripting language instead 19:03:53 wait, that was working in 98 19:03:58 but by XP, it was broken again 19:04:08 wait, microsoft had an api to make chiptunes? 19:04:09 :D 19:04:10 it still "worked", but with a 10-second-or-so delay whenever you loaded a MIDI file 19:04:19 ehird: only sort of tune there was back in win 3.1 19:04:24 unless you had spiffy new gamind speakers 19:04:25 ais523: oh, you mean pc speaker? 19:04:28 yes 19:04:31 nooo, bloopsaphone is much more 19:04:42 it does polyphonic, synthesized sound, based on squarewaves and such 19:04:46 so it sounds like the NES etc 19:04:53 well, the BBC Micro did that 19:04:58 (although you can make it do monophonic bleeps too, ofc) 19:05:02 it even had an ENVELOPE command 19:05:58 After all, if we can understand intelligence smarter than us, that's a paradox. We'd have to be that smart. 19:06:19 i think that paradox only applies to understanding so finely that you can simulate it in your head 19:06:26 hmm 19:06:28 possibly 19:07:32 also, it could be a large team of humans working on it, who would of course have access to all kinds of computer resources to improve their own reach 19:07:52 true 19:12:35 I want to write an IRC client in INTERCAL 19:12:46 I have all sorts of ideas for interesting features 19:12:55 such as a /swapnick command which swaps nicks with someone without anyone knowing 19:13:01 (working by piping messages through each other's clients) 19:13:07 i was going to say "that way lies madness", but then i realized madess has been far surpassed before you begin :D 19:13:13 *n 19:13:22 ais523: why? 19:13:31 ehird: do you really have to ask why? 19:13:37 yes. :D 19:13:44 but the actual reason is Claudio mentioned the possibility in an email, and I've been wondering about it ever since 19:14:00 i don't get what the usecase is 19:18:03 to spread madness, of course 19:21:14 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:22:35 * kerlo transfers a credibility point from ehird to oerjan 19:22:49 what 19:23:16 BWAHAHAHA soon i shall have enough credibility to be voted in as World Dictator 19:23:21 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 19:23:28 then i will resign, too much work 19:23:30 Yep. 19:24:04 too bad i was not the first. maybe i should cleanse all evidence of Dogbert's existence from the world before resigning. 19:25:29 i will also advise all world scientists to work _hard_ on creating a mind sweeping device before my inauguration, otherwise the cleansing will be far messier. 19:25:47 haha 19:25:51 What do you mean by "mind sweeping device"? 19:25:56 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:26:07 kerlo: you will forget you ever asked that 19:26:33 What did kerlo ask? 19:26:47 nothing of importance. 19:26:51 Sgeo: check logs 19:26:55 no. 19:27:06 i would advise against that. 19:27:26 You really need a log erasing device 19:27:44 trivial. 19:29:18 also, once the Tunes operating system develops sentience (as it obviously needs to iirc), it will be only too happy to cleanse the logs for me. 19:30:37 oerjan: IIRC or IMO? 19:31:07 iirc for remembering what Tunes is supposed to be 19:32:20 imo is unnecessary as my opinion is always right, iirc 19:33:32 as a World Dictator i will be an infinitely wise and fair judge who just happens not to quite recall correctly what the defendants did 19:34:21 maybe the scientists would be well advised to work on a memory preservation device, as well 19:35:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:35:24 * oerjan realizes he just committed a first degree split infinitive above 19:35:24 oerjan: tunes isn't aiming for sentience 19:35:40 no, but their goals require it, iirc 19:35:46 really? 19:36:06 * oerjan swats ehird -----### 19:36:16 DON'T DOUBT ME, FILISTINE 19:36:35 * ehird turns into rabbit 19:36:43 * ehird poops on oerjan's face 19:36:44 hm i think the swatter shall be in my world empire flag 19:36:45 * ehird hops away 19:37:32 Is Tunes even active? 19:37:39 Is anyone actually working on it? 19:37:42 Nope. 19:37:47 Nobody ever DID. 19:37:48 That reminds me, I'm going to check on OSMP 19:37:50 They never got past planning. 19:38:03 Sgeo: "As of 2008, the project was no longer active. Most developers shifted focus to development of open source software compatible with Second Life. 19:38:03 "? 19:38:14 http://metaverse.sourceforge.net/ 19:38:19 yeah 19:38:35 OSMP isn't compatible with SL, iirc 19:38:36 whoa! 19:38:38 from tunes.org: 19:38:39 "David Madore's explanation of TUNES" 19:38:44 david madore = unlambda inventor! 19:39:08 * kerlo allies with oerjan 19:39:16 The last post on the OSMP forums was in 2007.. 19:39:51 uh oh 19:39:53 [[I am François-René Rideau, a one-man think tank from France, and the author of several libertarian websites [1]. I am very honored to be speaking before this audience today, especially so in a session dedicated to the memory of Ayn Rand. ]] 19:39:56 -- Founder of TUNES 19:40:09 Linky? 19:40:11 i don't wanna know what an objectivist OS would look like 19:40:18 processes fighting processes for resources! :D 19:40:23 selling their resources to other processors! 19:40:31 processonomics 19:40:33 i guess that explains why it never got off the ground :D 19:40:35 Sgeo: http://fare.tunes.org/liberty/sofia2005.html 19:41:36 suffers from other delusions also: http://tunes.org/~do/ 19:43:03 "I've accumulated ideas for a short libertarian comic strip, and I am looking for an artist to illustrate them. If I can't find one, I may buy myself a tablet and try to draw my own stick-figure comic strip..." 19:43:04 please god no. 19:43:22 Everyone's looking for an artist. 19:43:31 especially libertarians 19:43:43 I'm an artist! You'll have to supply the Play-Doh, though; I don't have any on me. 19:44:24 Also, I hope photographs of Play-Doh will be sufficient. 19:45:49 Also, keep in mind that I have no actual sculpting experience. 19:47:01 given this is a libertarian, he should expect to pay for an artist, no? 19:50:59 -!- dbc has quit (Client Quit). 19:51:04 purrrrity 19:51:19 would that be a lolcat version of haskell? 19:52:13 there's crap on my floor. i mean actual crap. 19:52:20 does that answer your question? 19:52:48 well that doesn't sound pure 19:53:02 Crap from what species? 19:53:10 or are you implying cats and purity are incompatible? 19:53:32 i sincerely hope not human 19:53:35 And of the species within the crap, approximately what proportion are eukaryotic? 19:54:35 all your questions are nice and valid. 19:54:38 more importantly, what proportion are multicellular 19:54:50 ^ that one is too 19:55:26 as it would be important to know if the source has intestinal worms 19:55:34 i mean i take her out, walk with her for like a km, come home, and she craps on my floor 19:58:56 * oerjan is more a dog than a cat person, really. not that he would trust himself with being responsible for either. 20:01:20 i'm more of a cat person, but really i'm more of a rodent person, mostly a bat/lizard person i guess 20:01:40 i mean staring contests with lizards 20:01:41 are 20:01:42 awe 20:01:42 some 20:02:00 i mean squirrels, cats and hares i can win easily 20:02:16 but lizards can do it for hours on end 20:02:32 cats? there goes my stereotype. 20:02:49 huh? 20:03:02 Fuck I think I broke my speakers 20:03:24 i thought cats were invincible starers, but admittedly i probably got it from comics 20:03:46 clearly you have no idea how competitive i am 20:04:01 halp 20:04:28 do like me, keep your sound off nearly at all times 20:04:29 Why is http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=39 so broken? 20:04:36 yes put 20:04:37 but 20:04:41 i broke em 20:05:30 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:06:23 Sgeo: it's actually an inside joke relating to their other "comic" 20:07:00 um, how come you don't know? or have i been trolled? 20:07:19 isn't it theoretically impossible to troll oerjan? 20:07:26 ....I even went to view image, and failed to realize that that wasn't a 404? 20:07:27 as in, if someone would troll oerjan, it platonically doesn't happen? 20:07:37 * Sgeo slaps self 20:07:49 -!- ais523 has changed nick to self. 20:07:51 ow 20:07:53 -!- self has changed nick to ais523. 20:08:35 So Comments on a Postcard is a fake non-existent image? 20:08:36 WHY 20:08:36 ehird: well it's too late to close the barn once the cows have run away. or something. 20:08:55 Sgeo: it's a _series_ of them. 20:09:09 why would the cows run away? they have a nice warm barn, in this weather? 20:09:11 the actual content is the annotation 20:09:26 ais523: well this may apply more during summer 20:11:47 Sgeo: also, it's a collaborative "comic", see the forum 20:12:10 so don't expect too much consistency 20:21:04 "According to an analysis of your IP address, you access this site from a computer located in the Langerhans Islets. In accordance with Langerhans Islets pornography laws, individual pictures will not be displayed." 20:21:22 sucks to be you 20:21:23 that's a ridiculous error message 20:21:30 http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/about.php 20:21:37 yes. yes it is. 20:21:53 especially as I don't know of any Langerhans Islets that have been allocated any IP addresses at all 20:22:01 what is a joke 20:22:13 ais523: it's only a matter of time, really. 20:22:26 although it probably should be v6 20:23:07 ehird: it's you who missed the joke 20:23:19 certainly 20:23:44 ehird never lets a joke get in the way of being cynical 20:23:54 :D 20:24:13 Who is this L person? 20:24:26 where? 20:24:28 They do Dudley's Dungeon stuff, Uncyclopedia, and now Comments on a Postcard? 20:24:32 http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1889&sid=fd393ac5c6eba0191cead4a4c37d8351 20:24:55 Because, um, L is a totally uncommon nick. 20:24:58 Who would pick that?? 20:24:58 it could be more than one person, each calling themselves L 20:25:09 the whole [[WP:SLG]] stuff got quite controversial before it was deleted 20:25:10 http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/User:Zork_Implementor_L 20:25:23 it was basically a group of people who all renamed themselves to have single-letter usernames 20:25:25 that's not even freaking L, Sgeo 20:25:26 "total posts: 16", not a regular 20:25:28 that's Zork Implementor L. 20:25:55 ais523: I bet there's some hyper-christian registered as † 20:26:14 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/† Well, yes. 20:26:19 single-character non-ASCII names have been banned for a while 20:26:25 but clearly someone registered as that beforehand 20:27:48 http://jwz.livejournal.com/1003289.html 20:28:36 correction: not an _old_ regular, seems quite active 20:30:09 * ehird iterates a binary pangram 20:30:13 XXX0YYY1 20:30:23 where X = number of 0s and Y = number of 1s, ofc 20:31:45 does it converge? 20:32:21 hm wait of course it must end in a cycle 20:32:32 since too long ones will be shortened 20:32:42 well, it could be XXXX0YYYY1. 20:33:07 i assumed the number of X's and Y's were dependent on the numbers 20:33:12 no 20:33:13 constant 20:33:38 oerjan: the length of XXX0YYY1 = 8, and 3 binary digits can add up to 7 20:33:40 so it's enough 20:33:58 oh well, you get a cycle anyhow, it just makes the proof easier 20:34:10 (read trivial) 20:34:12 :< 20:34:17 then I'll try trinary 20:34:18 :P 20:34:28 it might be a cycle of length 1 20:34:30 duh it's the case for any base 20:34:35 oh. 20:34:44 well, pangrams work do they not? 20:34:45 indeed, i did not mean to imply anything about length 20:35:48 well there are pangrams, but i don't know whether there are some bases which don't happen to have any 20:35:59 01101011 20:36:26 indeed 20:36:54 it's not like checking ~ 36 possibilities is a big deal 20:37:26 oerjan: 8 possibilities 20:37:36 *9 20:37:43 which can easily be brought down to 3 with a bit of common sense 20:37:44 hm? 20:37:58 oerjan: because the number of 0s and the number of 1s add up to 8 20:38:03 well i brought it down to 36 first 20:38:08 hm true 20:40:00 but are there any with variable length length 20:41:19 it cycles: 20:41:19 10000111 20:41:19 10001001 20:41:19 10101001 20:41:19 10000111 20:41:19 10001001 20:41:21 10101001 20:41:23 :P 20:42:32 :O 20:42:38 wow that's pretty 20:42:53 i love it 20:43:12 * ehird makes it length 2 out of intererest 20:43:39 length-2 cycles between 20:43:39 0101011 20:43:39 0111011 20:43:48 wait 20:43:54 that's one length too many. 20:44:12 and 0 in the wrong place 20:45:32 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 20:46:29 woohoo 20:46:30 I got it 20:46:30 0101001011 20:46:34 length 4 20:46:39 XXXX0YYYY1 20:47:25 XXYY: 1010 20:48:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:52:07 hi ais523 20:52:09 0101001011 20:52:13 pangram of form XXXX0YYYY1 20:52:41 a nice symmetrical one, as well 20:52:46 how's the BF Joust implementation going? 20:52:47 yep 20:52:56 ais523: got sidetracked with this :-) 20:53:04 (btw, in english, that pangram states "5 zeros, 5 ones") 20:53:19 I know 20:54:42 others may not. 20:59:31 i note none of the examples so far have lengths starting with 1, so won't work with variable length 20:59:58 *length length 21:00:52 2 decimal loops: 21:00:52 100071032023014015016027018019 21:00:52 110081032023014015016017028019 21:00:56 (length 2) 21:01:21 did you find those by iteration? 21:01:25 yah 21:01:26 also, some spaces might make it more readable 21:01:31 they loop is the point 21:01:37 i.e., they both loop to each other 21:01:40 * ehird tries length 3 decimal 21:01:43 11 0 08 1 03 2 02 3 01 4 01 5 01 6 01 7 02 8 01 9 21:01:57 ehird: try messing with the starting point? 21:03:02 110 1001, of course :) 21:04:14 i don't think there can be one that is both fixed and variable length 21:07:01 brb -> 21:07:24 indeed the requirement to start with 1 makes the numbers too large for length > 3, and length 2 and 3 don't work either 21:13:06 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:17:21 -!- Judofyr has joined. 21:22:12 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird|away. 21:37:48 -!- kar8nga2 has joined. 21:38:22 -!- kar8nga has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:38:26 -!- kar8nga2 has changed nick to kar8nga. 21:41:01 -!- SchrodingersCat has joined. 21:41:02 -!- ehird|away has changed nick to ehird. 21:50:48 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 21:52:07 -!- Ortez has joined. 21:54:55 -!- SchrodingersCat has left (?). 22:01:00 -!- Slereah has joined. 22:01:05 hi Ortez 22:01:08 haven't seen you here before 22:01:33 You have seen Zetro befor? ;) 22:02:00 I don't remember a Zetro here either 22:02:04 hmm, name rings a bell... 22:02:06 #corewars maybe? 22:02:10 ```aqhew 22:02:25 oerjan: wut 22:02:31 oerjan: you're missing a backquote and several function definitions there 22:02:35 yes i have been on #corewars 22:02:39 Ortez backwards = Zetro! Duh. 22:02:50 Ortez: ok :) 22:02:51 hi! 22:02:53 ais523: ey ey 22:02:53 even if that's Lazy Bird not Unlambda, you're still missing a backquote 22:03:20 I think oerjan has lost his mind (note: different from going insane.) 22:04:13 ehird: ys!qqnj 22:04:40 Slereah: by the way, here's how you can do input in lazy bird: 22:05:16 hmm 22:05:20 how does it do it currently? 22:05:20 with _ 22:05:30 Yeah 22:05:35 yeah I mean 22:05:36 Converts input into church numerals 22:05:36 how does _ work 22:05:37 :P 22:05:43 Slereah: like, how 22:05:45 do you do `_f? 22:05:48 what is f passed? 22:05:59 What's f? 22:06:02 oerjan: fungot 22:06:03 ais523: in intercal, programs other than variable ranges and expressions; in particular, this time setting the pins that are sending. however, the operands themselves are pattern templates specifying what precedences actually are. this explanation assumes that the number of 0 causes the current line; if you are not always right 22:06:07 ): aw spue+sjapun auo ou 22:06:07 slereah: a plcaeholder 22:06:28 fungot: what if I'm not always right? 22:06:29 ais523: 7.9 try again 22:06:35 fair enough 22:06:35 Well, `_f would wait for input, and be replaced by like `33f 22:06:46 And then `f`f`f...`f 22:06:47 Slereah: ah. and why doesn't this work? 22:07:14 Well, it works, but the problem is the order. 22:07:15 laziness, obviously 22:07:18 Yeah. 22:07:21 it's the Lazy Bird equivalent of unsafePerformIO 22:07:25 Slereah: ok, add this function: 22:07:27 as in, it doesn't do what you expect 22:07:48 `!xy -- when this is evaluated: forces the full evaluation of x, then evaluates to whatever y evaluates to 22:07:49 tada 22:07:54 I was thinking of using >, such that `b`>a converts to `ba and then a is evaluated 22:07:59 Or something 22:09:10 But well, much like this language, I'm a bit lazy right now. 22:09:20 :D 22:13:02 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:20:46 f 22:20:50 f 22:22:38 p 22:23:28 o 22:24:15 q 22:24:43 ...o 22:25:13 a 22:25:51 m! 22:25:57 O 22:26:15 -!- oklofok has changed nick to Oklopol. 22:26:40 capital error 22:28:21 ## fucking imap fucking sucks. what the FUCK kind of committee of dunces 22:28:21 ## designed this shit. 22:30:28 sum(imap(operator.mul,u,v)) 22:30:31 -!- GregorR_ has joined. 22:30:35 heh 22:31:03 My computer restarted for no reason. No power outage, just restarted. 22:31:23 -!- GregorR has quit (Nick collision from services.). 22:31:27 -!- GregorR_ has changed nick to GregorR. 22:31:31 What language is that? 22:31:45 python 22:31:59 ah, didn't recognize the operator.mul thingy 22:32:15 import operator 22:32:38 GregorR: just fyi, my vista never does that. 22:33:17 Oklopol: Yes, I strongly suspect this is a software problem, which is why I mentioned the software at all. 22:33:44 GregorR: stop doing that 22:33:56 what are the chars used for back/forward one word in terminals again? 22:33:59 i forgoooottttt 22:34:53 also, amazingly: it seems that there are some people in blognomic's IRC channels who have never seen various xkcd comics before 22:35:06 how, uh, amazing? 22:38:51 Saturday classes meet 14 times during the semester and meet for 54 minutes of instruction for each hour of instruction. 22:39:26 i see 22:39:35 ais523, examples? 22:39:51 the guaranteed-to-be-random dice-roll random number 22:39:54 someone linked it 22:40:03 and there were comments implying that the people who it was linked to had never seen it 22:40:38 Example comment? 22:41:00 Sgeo: are you conducting a freaking scientific investigation on this matter? :P 22:41:13 That reminds me of http://xkcd.com/221/ awesome. 22:41:14 * Sgeo is curious 22:41:25 What was the situation reminding Hix of that? 22:41:32 ;_; 22:41:46 me talking about how ehird was trying to get control over random numbers in B Nomic 22:41:57 err what 22:42:08 ? 22:42:28 by replacing the dice server with your own email address, surely you remember that? 22:42:41 comex proposed that, ais523 22:42:55 can you drop the mental association you obviously have of "b nomic & bad => elliott did it"? kthx 22:43:12 I'm sure you were complicit 22:43:18 lol 22:43:31 ais523: no, I laughed at it and it never got on a ballot. 22:44:11 I think this channel is an appropriate place to discuss the most expensive ways to die. 22:44:40 Execution by firing squad, with guns loaded with Faberge eggs. 22:44:54 ... 22:44:58 irritating kerlo so that he talks to you so much you die 22:45:05 ais523: it's kerlo. just go along with it. 22:45:07 kerlo: this is not the place for that 22:45:09 Oh. 22:45:13 Oklopol: whyever not 22:45:17 i'll just tell you it's trivial to spend any amount of money on it. 22:45:30 case closed 22:45:49 That does sound expensive, as I'm not all that irritable. 22:45:54 -!- alex89ru has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:46:07 also this O thing isn't working for me 22:46:09 -!- Oklopol has changed nick to oklopol. 22:46:16 i'm not a very upper case person i guess :| 22:46:42 so ais523 where are you ircing from, is the university open at this hour? 22:48:39 kerlo: wait, aren't faberge eggs a bit larger than bullets? 22:48:44 noop() 22:48:44 Sends a NOOP command to the server. It does nothing. 22:51:39 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 22:52:22 also, i would suggest burning at the stake on a bonfire made of thousand dollar bills 22:53:20 oerjan: the guns have to be made out of resilin. 22:54:50 also, i think the LHC black hole would turn out rather expensive, all damage included 22:55:03 -!- Ortez has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:55:19 Indeed. 22:55:51 it seems this has to end up with destroying the universe somehow. try a false vacuum collapse. 22:56:14 Exploding due to an antimatter overdose. 22:57:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:58:12 -!- Corun has joined. 22:59:20 Heavy metal poisoning due to gold. 23:01:47 false vacuum collapse sounds fun 23:02:40 GregorR: what's that life-ruining video again 23:02:44 Buying the United States Army and ordering them to shoot you. 23:03:02 how much would it cost to buy the US army, I wonder? 23:03:15 ais523: I don't imagine it is for sale. 23:03:29 taking so many coins they collapse into a black hole 23:03:33 well first you'd have to buy congress, which is easy 23:03:36 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-k9C3v9Ng0&feature=channel_page 23:03:39 ehird: ^ 23:03:44 *badum* 23:03:54 Name any price, it's probably a low guess. 23:04:04 writing such an amount of zeroes on a check the amount of paper collapses into a black hole 23:04:06 ehird: exactly, that's why it would have to be expensive 23:04:24 ^ easy to generalize the exponential growth in cost there 23:04:25 oklopol: High guess, though they're probably not going to take the offer anyways. 23:05:06 GregorR: :'( 23:05:22 ehird: Enjoy your miserable depression! 23:05:40 GregorR: I gave the link to someone else, so it's OK. 23:05:46 They can be sad too. 23:09:10 GregorR: nice story 23:09:31 cery classy for its genre 23:11:52 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 23:14:35 ehird: you might like this webpage: http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/controls.htm#CONTROLS53 23:14:46 it's all about interface design stupidities 23:14:56 ooooh 23:15:45 [[The folks at Ryka, a manufacturer of women's shoes, wanted to be certain that no potential customers could be excluded. Thus, rather than providing option (or radio) buttons to indicate one's gender, they decided to use checkboxes, to allow the potential customer to indicate Male, Female, or, well, both, and for that matter, none. We found this especially interesting given the company motto, "Exclusively for women by women." Inclusiveness must be "in".]] 23:16:07 um, ever heard of transgender etc? 23:16:10 admittedly that's crap UI for that 23:16:19 no, that's wrong 23:16:29 there are at least 4 transgender genders 23:16:38 and that box doesn't let you specify which you are 23:16:48 male/female/other is considered acceptable, though 23:16:54 they should just not ask 23:16:57 if you're even caring about gender, why would you do that? 23:17:03 the company doesn't need to know my gender, so stop trying to dat amine 23:17:04 *datamine 23:17:52 "Cancel button before the OK button" <- heh, that's _good_ OS X design practice 23:18:07 the main thing is to not contradict the conventions on your platform 23:18:12 yes 23:18:25 they have an ordering? 23:18:32 i've never noticed 23:18:34 I would complain about a Gnome application which put cancel to the right, just as much as I'd complain about a KDE application which put cancel to the left 23:18:52 Gnome is (optional alternate OK), Cancel, normal OK 23:19:50 KDE has normal OK and cancel the other way round 23:23:21 *very 23:23:40 almost left a typo in there :| 23:24:10 (btw for future reference, if someone notices a typo i've left uncorrected, please inform me.) 23:24:34 what 23:25:03 23:25:49 "OzWin-specific commands, ^M^J in the text." 23:25:50 fail 23:30:15 what's wrong with the three sorting fields thing 23:31:23 "there is no way to indicate that you want to sort on any less" <<< to indicate you do *not* want to specify how to sort if two values are equal? how useful! 23:31:46 oklopol: what if you want to keep it stable? 23:31:57 ais523: true, true. 23:32:37 but i don't see that as worse than just choosing one. of course, i guess some people might see is at kinda stupid. 23:36:24 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 23:36:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:50:01 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:53:09 -!- Judofyr has joined. 23:53:17 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 2009-02-15: 00:00:34 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:09:11 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 00:12:57 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:26:14 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:28:04 Who here uses qmail? AnMaster? 00:28:17 ehird, correct. Night 00:28:20 * AnMaster goes to bed 00:28:29 AnMaster: Impeccable timing. 00:29:13 AnMaster: You got one second? Guess not. 00:29:29 well 00:29:30 ok then 00:29:36 I have a headache tough 00:29:38 what imap server do you use with qmail? 00:29:39 though* 00:29:55 ehird, um I don't. I use maildir... 00:30:08 AnMaster: Ah, you read mail directly on the server? 00:30:29 ehird, I'm used to the pine/mutt/alpine family of mail clients yes 00:30:36 How quaint. :p Thanks anyway :) 00:30:57 ehird, also I hate MTAs, that is as long as they are working they are ok, but I hate sysadmining them 00:31:18 Yes, that's why I'm trying to decide between qmail and letting google host my mail atm. 00:32:25 mhm 00:32:38 bye 00:32:41 ehird, qmail config is not as bad as sendmail config though 00:32:44 and night 00:46:43 erg 00:47:02 guys, i have a question you might have a worthwhile opinion on 00:48:03 i think you know what my answer is. 00:48:10 is it oko? 00:48:39 well i have no idea. 00:52:37 so my question is this 00:53:03 i have these things called glosses that represent a sort of annotated form of a sentence 00:53:33 and there are a number of standard orthographic forms used to annotate 00:53:46 i want to be able to integrate this into the database software im building tho 00:54:15 in which the standard orthgoraphic forms are representative of things in the database 00:54:56 you lost me at "things" 00:55:07 :P 00:55:11 * oklopol is too tired for big words 00:55:12 should i store the glosses as just strings like "F.B.Q" and require that searches work on the orthographic forms only 00:56:23 or should i make the glosses actually store pointers to the items in the DB instead of storing just strings of representation? 01:14:14 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:35:42 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 01:44:26 hmm, no oerjan? 01:56:09 Anybody want to play Cheskers? 01:58:28 NO. 01:58:29 maybe you can play cheskers and I can be in the audience making fun of you? 01:59:12 ... 01:59:46 wait 01:59:51 cheskers 01:59:56 is that some wacky game of yours? 02:00:01 checkers + chess 02:00:08 Naturalismo. 02:00:23 right, right, for some reason god only knows, i thought it was a typo 02:00:46 * oklopol is slowwww 02:00:52 ...but still NO 02:00:55 need to koed 02:00:56 -> 02:01:17 co-educate? 02:01:33 as in, interact with females? 02:02:11 yes, i'm a pornstar 02:02:17 Anyone want to play Arimaa? 02:02:18 No, he's just impersonating the word coed, so he'll be interacting with female impersonators. 02:02:36 Sgeo_: Oooh, I should add Arimaa support to my board game software ... 02:02:37 sweet, pornstar and crazy-person.. I'm just missing two out of two 02:02:51 GregorR, what about legal issues? 02:03:21 Sgeo_: Has legality ever stopped me before? Bahahahahah!!! 02:03:32 GregorR, I have no clue, obviously 02:06:46 http://arimaa.com/arimaa/license/ 02:06:56 Yeah, should be compatible. 02:07:03 http://arimaa.com/arimaa/license/current.txt 02:07:05 The software is F/OSS, but that's copyright, not patent ^^ 02:08:14 "Some usage or distribution of Arimaa may be non-commercial, but also not fall 02:08:14 under the personal, educational and research (PER) category. For such cases a 02:08:14 written authorization must be obtained from Arimaa.com. 02:08:14 " 02:08:24 " * I want to freely distribute software that incorporates Arimaa. Such as 02:08:24 open source software that plays Arimaa. 02:08:24 " 02:09:44 Bah, why would somebody patent a game created for the purpose of testing the limits of AI. That's so stupid. 02:12:28 lots of patents are 02:19:18 Yeah, that is the one dumb thing about Arimaa. 02:19:46 Really sad, since everything else about Arimaa is rather clever and smart... 02:20:18 Fairly deep game. 03:18:35 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit. 03:19:31 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:32:19 -!- chuck has changed nick to chuck_cat. 03:32:35 -!- chuck_cat has changed nick to chuck. 04:04:44 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 04:08:51 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:17:28 -!- Slereah has joined. 04:26:13 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:49:18 -!- Dewio has joined. 05:01:56 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 05:18:56 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 05:21:05 -!- Pthing has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:33:22 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:34:00 holy shit 05:34:08 i have a palindrome embedded in my nick! 05:34:11 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 05:36:08 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:49:12 lopol is indeeda palindrom 05:49:13 e 05:50:20 i was actually talking about the "o", but yeah i guess "lopol" is a palindrome as well 05:51:07 :P 05:51:35 you have a wonderful ability to counter ones expectations 05:52:19 i do now? it's probably just the lack of sleepness. 05:53:09 i just made my first GC, and it was so trivial i'm a bit ashamed i did it. 05:53:30 two hours until the breakfast store opens 05:53:43 all i can do until then is troll irc channels by being my tired self 06:05:11 oklopol: Everyone has at least len(nick) trivial palindromes :P 06:05:42 oklopol: Conservative GC? Mark and sweep? Copying? Generational? Magic GC? 06:08:39 GC? 06:09:03 oh 06:09:06 garbage collector 06:09:07 ok. 06:21:53 how does a conservative gc know how large objects are? 06:22:26 oh, duh, it hacks the allocator 06:38:54 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:49:44 bsmntbombdood: It /is/ the allocator. 06:49:59 yeah 06:53:35 but you still have to use a malloc thing 06:54:08 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:58:46 allocators get awfully complicated 07:02:16 like in memcached, they decided malloc() isn't good enough 07:04:03 and you still see things like obj_t objcache[128]; 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:08:42 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 08:20:52 Bye all 08:21:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:48:57 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:10:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:14:39 i have a palindrome embedded in my nick! 09:14:53 me too! six of them in fact 09:15:20 oh wait, seven 09:15:34 forgot the empty string 09:16:18 i was actually talking about the "o", but yeah i guess "lopol" is a palindrome as well 09:16:34 no that's way to destroy my joke in advance 09:16:41 *now 09:17:24 oklopol: Everyone has at least len(nick) trivial palindromes :P 09:17:29 +1 09:17:53 maybe i _should_ start reading the rest of the logs before responding. nah. 09:20:09 also, that's technically correct only if you count duplicates, in which case it still isn't, should be 2*len(nick)+1 09:20:28 (empty strings all around) 09:27:53 -!- kar8nga has quit. 09:56:07 -!- Hiato has joined. 10:02:42 -!- Hiato has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:04:30 -!- Hiato has joined. 10:12:25 GregorR: oklopol: Conservative GC? Mark and sweep? Copying? Generational? Magic GC? <<< variant of m&s. 10:13:18 i would probably feel less dirty if it was something algorithmically contentful 10:14:09 -!- appletizer has joined. 10:16:20 oerjan: there is an infinite amount of empty strings in every hole, isn't there? 10:19:22 counting duplicated may not be such a great ida 10:19:24 *idea 10:19:26 -!- appletizer has left (?). 10:30:52 oklopol: i assume you count only once per position... 10:31:22 otherwise it would get SILLY, and we wouldn't have THAT 10:31:28 ah, infinite amount, but they all have the same position, yes i guess that's solid logic 10:31:37 yes, exactly :) 10:36:06 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 10:59:06 -!- Judofyr has joined. 11:10:01 -!- dbc has joined. 11:13:41 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:15:20 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:25:47 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:26:31 -!- Judofyr has joined. 11:26:39 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 11:32:18 d-d-d-d-D-D-D-DANNNNCE aLLLL nIGHT lONGGGGGGG 11:37:12 Hi people. 11:37:32 hi you. 11:52:27 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 11:56:26 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:02:05 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 12:03:17 -!- jix has joined. 12:09:17 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:20:08 -!- fungot has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:20:08 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:20:08 -!- Deewiant has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:20:18 -!- Deewiant has joined. 12:31:41 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 12:44:53 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:45:35 -!- Judofyr has joined. 13:09:29 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:32:14 -!- fizzie has joined. 13:34:09 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:45:21 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 13:54:33 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:18:47 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:24:10 -!- olsner_ has joined. 14:38:14 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:38:17 [14:35:33] [05:53:09] i just made my first GC, and it was so trivial i'm a bit ashamed i did it. 14:38:23 you're right that's trivial 14:38:26 hi ehird 14:38:27 but, you know, it's fun. 14:38:29 hi ais523 14:38:37 I wrote a GC for Overload a while back 14:38:41 two, in fact 14:38:53 because the GC semantics are part of the language 14:38:58 oklopol: gcs CAN be algorithmically contentful 14:39:00 the first one was mark-and-sweep 14:39:04 do it parallel, and generational 14:39:04 and the second one was weird 14:39:09 that's tricky 14:40:50 ehird: i know 14:41:03 yah 14:41:05 just suggestering 14:42:41 well this is in c++, and it's just not fast enough to code in to be all that fun. 14:42:49 so i just made something simple that works. 14:43:32 oklopol: did you make it for a reason, or just for fun? 14:43:38 and which algorithm did you use? 14:43:41 it's for a c++ course. 14:43:48 and i didn't really use an algorithm 14:44:05 well, the code has to be using some method to do it 14:44:10 and even trivial algorithms have names 14:44:25 but i think it's mark-and-sweep 14:44:30 ofc 14:45:22 mark and sweep is pretty much the most dumb thing ever 14:45:22 but you know giving mark-and-sweep a name is like naming different ways to call a function, it's just kinda stupid, since anyone will come up with it given the problem statement, there is absolutely no insight to it. 14:45:26 it's no wonder gc had a bad rep 14:45:38 oklopol: it's useful when talking about it 14:45:41 well different ways to call a function is a bad example. 14:45:43 oh, debian 5 is out 14:45:46 pass-by-value, pass-by-reference, pass-by-name 14:45:47 ehird: sure. i still don't like it. 14:45:48 ehird: "5"? 14:45:54 yes. 14:45:57 debian 5.0 "lenny" 14:46:00 it's Lenny, and something like the ninth or tenthversion 14:46:04 http://www.debian.net/News/2009/20090214.en.html 14:46:07 " Debian GNU/Linux version 5.0" 14:46:10 I wasn't even aware Debian had version numbers 14:46:14 ais523: yes, very bad example, also you could consider call conventions another categorization 14:46:24 obviously, it must have version numbers that don't follow an obvious pattern 14:46:27 much more algorithmical insight to it 14:46:29 ais523: I'm pretty sure Lenny and the like are just codenames, like Tiger and Leopard 14:46:38 although apple are now marketing with those names, they didn't use to 14:46:50 ehird: sort of, except that those names are the names of the repositories 14:47:03 I bet internal apple code has "Leopard" in it, too 14:47:06 the way it works is that a few weeks ago, "Lenny" was the testing repository 14:47:18 "Lenny" is now the stable repo, and testing is "Squeeze" 14:47:30 and those names are the names you actually have to give to the package manager for it to work 14:47:39 ais523: I just looked it up, debian's gone: 14:47:44 0.x, 1.x, 2.x, 3.x, 4.x, 5.0 14:47:57 so it's not the ninth or tenth release, they're just slooooow. 14:47:58 ais523: maybe a better example is something like insertion sort, sure it's useful to have a name for it, but it's not like anyone implements insertion sort, insertion sort is what you implement if you don't feel like thinking or reading and want to get the job done. 14:48:05 so you can either say "stable" to automatically stay on the stable repo (which would upgrade from etch to lenny automatically) 14:48:15 4.0 was released april 2007 14:48:22 so 5.0 is a positively fast release 14:48:24 or say "etch", then it stays on etch until you tell it to upgrade to lenny 14:48:30 (and etch is now the oldstable repo) 14:48:48 http://www.debian.net/doc/manuals/project-history/ch-detailed.en.html#s4.6 14:48:50 Mostly deaths... 14:48:55 (Important Events section) 14:49:58 ais523: what do you think debian will do when they run out of toy story names? 14:50:11 persuade Disney to release Toy Story 3 14:50:31 Erm, they're already making it :P 14:50:37 there are still quite a lot they haven't used yet, though 14:53:21 holy shit, linus uses _this kind of emphasis_ a lot 14:53:23 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/217 14:54:23 ais523: ah: 14:54:24 Other codenames that have been already used are: buzz for release 1.1, rex for release 1.2, bo for releases 1.3.x, hamm for release 2.0, slink for release 2.1, potato for release 2.2, woody for release 3.0, sarge for release 3.1, and etch for release 4.0. 14:54:35 so the codename changes more frequently than the major release 14:54:46 so this is the 10th release or thereabouts 14:54:50 yes, I wonder what makes them decide whether a release is minor or major/ 14:55:29 well, they seem to be going for major release = codename, once every year and a half or so 14:55:39 going by etch and this new one here 14:55:46 major release = codename is necessary 14:55:51 or their whole release process would fail 14:55:59 what I mean is, 14:56:04 not changing the codename on a minor release 14:56:07 like they used to, as above 14:56:23 ah 14:56:47 what I mean is, there doesn't seem to be any way to tell whether a Debian release is minor or major, except from the version number 15:01:08 yes 15:01:17 I guess those minor releases were not that minor 15:01:25 yep 15:01:29 basically, the way Debian works 15:01:36 is that they have unstable, which is cutting-edge 15:01:46 and experimental, which is even more cutting-edge 15:01:55 yes 15:01:59 unstable contains the latest versions of whatever packages they're using 15:02:03 so, say, the latest version of KDE 3 15:02:04 When I used debian as a desktop OS I used sid 15:02:10 because everything else was hopelessly slow 15:02:14 whereas experimental contains the latest version of KDE 4 15:02:19 because 4 isn't in mainstream yet 15:02:22 unstable = testing, right? 15:02:26 not quite 15:02:26 and experimental = unstable 15:02:29 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:02:47 if something's been in Debian unstable for a certain number of days and nobody reports a bug in it, it moves into testing 15:02:51 yes 15:03:01 the number of days depends on how serious the bug that fixed it was 15:03:08 so, say when I release a new C-INTERCAL version 15:03:20 it goes into unstable as soon as Debian package it, and into testing if nobody reports a bug after 8 days 15:03:25 longer if there's a code-freeze on 15:03:44 yes 15:03:48 every so often, they gradually code-freeze testing 15:04:02 and delays there get longer and longer, until they're only porting fixes for release-critical bugs 15:04:26 when there are no release-critical bugs in testing, and there's a freeze at the time, it becomes the next stable version 15:10:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:22:44 Think I'll note again that in case anyone has a boardgamegeek membership, I've got an "esoteric language programmer" microbadge available. http://boardgamegeek.com/microbadge/7285 15:31:16 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 15:31:41 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:31:51 MIBBIT PLEASE STOP DOING THAT 15:32:10 wow, allcaps 15:32:15 is this a first? 15:32:21 I don't think so 15:37:59 o 15:38:25 o8o 15:41:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("rebooting"). 15:43:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:05:44 -!- Slereah2 has quit. 16:07:55 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:08:19 -!- Slereah has joined. 16:10:09 -!- Slereah has quit (Client Quit). 16:10:54 -!- Slereah has joined. 16:11:29 -!- Slereah has quit (Client Quit). 16:21:59 -!- Slereah has joined. 16:23:32 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 16:26:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:38:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:48:58 Heh, apparently there's a process called Electrowinning. 16:52:11 what does it do? 16:56:54 Electrowinning, also called electroextraction, is the electrodeposition of metals from their ores that have been put in solution or liquefied. Electrorefining uses a similar process to remove impurities from a metal. Both processes use electroplating on a large scale and are important techniques for the economical and straightforward purification of non-ferrous metals. The resulting metals are said to be electrowon. 17:01:46 * ehird is working on a HIDEOUS ABOMINATION. 17:02:25 Objectivist-C. Entities fight for processor and memory. More efficient producers (e.g., a prime checker using a better algorithm) end up killing other entities. 17:02:34 All based on the C we know and love! 17:06:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:07:29 -!- kar8nga has quit. 17:08:04 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:09:03 pass-by-value, pass-by-reference, pass-by-name 17:09:13 hm, are there any more esoteric ones, i wonder 17:10:17 Pass-by-arbiter. Rather than getting the object, you get an object that can access the original, but you have to access it through annoying proxy-like requests. 17:10:23 if there were, i'd expect INTERCAL to have incorporating some... 17:10:26 *ed 17:10:45 oh right 17:11:17 oerjan: yes 17:11:23 hm prototype OO falls under that, doesn't it 17:11:37 oerjan: call by copy-restore 17:11:40 call by sharing 17:11:44 call by need 17:11:48 call by macro expansion 17:11:50 call by future 17:12:10 call-by-copy-restore ought to be functionally indistinguishable from pass-by-reference 17:12:19 oh right, call by need i should have remembered 17:12:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy#Call_by_copy-restore 17:12:38 GregorR: not with concurrent programming 17:12:43 Ah yse. 17:12:44 *yes 17:13:08 call-by-macro-expansion is effectively call-by-name 17:13:13 oerjan: there's the method Feather uses 17:13:18 GregorR: i was going to ask that 17:13:24 pass-readonly-by-value-or-reference-it-doesn't-matter 17:13:44 and you can retroactively change the value of any object you were passed 17:13:54 which causes it to change in the past, thus you get passed the new changed value 17:13:57 so the object is always readonly 17:13:58 call-by-macro-expansion is not call by name 17:14:04 ais523: well that applies to any pure language too like haskell 17:14:12 yes 17:14:12 f(x) = x*2 17:14:14 f(y-3) 17:14:15 and such 17:14:22 although haskell doesn't retroactively change function arguments 17:14:26 and scoping 17:14:33 call-by-macro-expansion can access variables in its expander 17:14:35 or ML, really 17:14:37 call-by-name can't 17:15:00 ais523: in Haskell, every value is a function returning its value. after the first evaluation, it actually rewrites its own machine code into a trivial return 17:15:02 so it's only evaluated once 17:15:31 i would be surprised if ais523 didn't already know that 17:15:37 umm... that's in a particular implementation of Haskell, you mean 17:15:44 nothing about the language suggests machine code is involved 17:15:46 ais523: it's the standard way 17:15:56 well, yes, it's sensible 17:15:57 oerjan: he knows haskell, but doesn't seem to know much about its implementation 17:16:00 that doesn't make it the only way, though 17:16:04 of course 17:16:06 ehird: more I don't care much about its implementation 17:16:10 well yeah, in _theory_ haskell can be faithfully implemented with call-by-name instead of need, i think 17:16:10 it's just the fun, esoteric, efficient way 17:16:12 because that doesn't affect use of the language 17:16:14 it's just insane 17:16:19 oerjan: it just specifies "non-strict" 17:16:21 and I wouldn't call it esoteric 17:16:31 an auto-memoizing, auto-parallel call-by-need haskell would be valid 17:16:39 and work apart from things like unsafePerformIO 17:16:42 well, it'd work, just go haywire 17:17:07 unsafePerformIO breaks the semantics of Haskell 17:17:14 the 'unsafe' is there for a reason... 17:17:21 of course 17:17:25 unsafeCoerce is funner, though 17:17:33 just like looking at the code of a function in Underlambda breaks its semantics 17:17:46 you can do it by printing out a continuation and reading it in as text, but that's unsafeCamelCase 17:17:49 in ghc, (unsafeCoerce () :: Double) gives you something like 3.2752 17:17:53 instead of segfaulting 17:17:56 what does unsafeCoerce do? 17:18:03 ais523: unsafeCoerce :: a -> b 17:18:12 oh dear... 17:18:22 I can guess 17:18:29 it reminds me rather of the _cast operators in C++ 17:18:37 except more dangerous 17:18:43 except those would crash if you tried to do an impossible coercion, even dynamic_cast<> 17:18:55 and crash with an exception rather than segfault 17:18:55 oh, it lets you segfault in haskell 17:19:04 unsafeCoerce 3 :: Either () () 17:19:06 prints out 17:19:09 also, how does unsafeCoerce figure out what types its arguments are 17:19:10 Left 17:19:15 ais523: umm, it doesn't 17:19:22 it just gives back the internal pointer data 17:19:23 well, its result 17:19:26 ehird: obviously if you coerce into something with pointers in it 17:19:26 ais523: you tag it 17:19:32 (unsafeCoerce a :: TypeIWant) 17:19:46 just like you can do (2+2 :: Integer) 17:19:56 oerjan: yes 17:20:27 ehird: what does unsafeCoerce () return 17:20:29 if you don't tag it? 17:20:41 ais523: meaningless question i think 17:20:49 it has all types 17:20:52 ais523: forall b. b 17:20:52 well, it has to either return something or error 17:20:58 just like how 17:21:00 (2+2) 17:21:01 is of type 17:21:02 yes, that's its type 17:21:06 (Num a) => forall a. a 17:21:10 I wonder what value the interp prints, though 17:21:14 ais523: it doesn't 17:21:18 there's no instance for (Show (forall a. a)) 17:21:19 makes sense 17:21:21 and you can't make one 17:21:25 so you get a type error 17:21:30 ugh 17:21:36 we need an unsafeShow, obviously 17:21:40 heh 17:22:07 ais523: that requires the interpreter to have enough information, fortunately it probably has due to gc 17:22:19 to distinguish pointers at least 17:22:27 you could just print out a hex representation or something 17:22:39 or a series of Haskell commands that create the value that's there 17:22:45 there's probably an unsafePointer# :: a -> Integer 17:22:49 err, Int 17:23:16 Perl has Data::Dumper::Dumper, you apply it to an object and get a series of commands to create that object 17:23:18 i want an inefficient haskell impl that has a playground 17:23:22 like, 17:23:34 ais523: yes but perl has dynamic types 17:23:51 nativeCallCC :: ((a -> a) -> a) -> a 17:23:54 Perl's more untyped than dynamically typed 17:23:57 and you can do 17:24:16 nativeCallCC (\f -> f 3 + 2) --> 3 17:24:31 callCC makes no sense in a non-strict language 17:24:37 are you sure you got the type of nativeCallCC right? 17:24:44 oerjan: sure it does 17:24:50 ais523: err, it should be 17:24:54 no 17:24:55 that's right 17:25:12 let's see... a continuation is of type a -> (), isn't it? 17:25:13 oerjan: + forces its arguments (obviously), and when (f 3) is evaluated the current evaluation chain is given up 17:25:16 ais523: no 17:25:28 [17:25:23] :t callCC 17:25:28 [17:25:25] forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (MonadCont m) => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a 17:25:28 well, it clearly doesn't return 17:25:40 the reason I had a as the result is so you can use it in expressions like that 17:25:50 Let's play Cheskers! 17:25:55 Somebody! :P 17:26:23 Me!! 17:26:24 ais523: callCC has the type of pierce's [sp] law in boolean logic 17:26:27 ehird: that's like making printf return an integer so you can do printf("Hello, world!\n") + printf("Bye!\n"); 17:26:38 ehird: http://codu.org/cheskers/client/cheskers.html# game 18, join as white 17:26:40 that's not the reason printf returns an integer, and if it was it would be stupid 17:26:41 ais523: it's useful because nativeCallCC (\x -> x 2) should be valid. 17:26:56 oerjan: I've never heard of pierce's law 17:26:58 GregorR: Loading... 17:27:02 Works on Safari? 17:27:12 ehird: Haven't tested it on Safari ... works on Konq :P 17:27:13 ais523: peirce's 17:27:21 GregorR: Just hangs at "loading". 17:27:26 ehird: I don't think it should be valid, it's semantically nonsensical 17:27:33 ais523: no it isn't 17:27:51 what you've written there would translate into C as int func {return return 2;} 17:27:59 ... I don't think you understand call/cc 17:28:05 yes I do 17:28:09 ais523: it's one of the laws of boolean logic that aren't in intuitionistic logic 17:28:21 like excluded middle 17:28:43 a continuation doesn't return a value, by definition, so it doesn't make sense to make it return a value 17:29:01 it returns the Void valu 17:29:01 e 17:29:05 in haskell, (forall a. a) 17:29:07 hmm... actually, giving it type forall b. a -> b would make sense 17:29:10 this is standard, e.g.: 17:29:14 error :: forall a. String -> a 17:29:27 haha wow, in Ruby 1.9 you can use λ to make a proc 17:29:30 (that's a unicode lambda) 17:29:38 the physical unicode character? 17:29:42 they're stealing from INTERCAL! 17:29:46 :-D 17:29:49 ais523: oh wait, it's ((P -> Q) -> P) -> P 17:29:57 oerjan: hmm, that is the right type 17:29:58 sorry, I was wrong 17:29:59 (CLC-INTERCAL for ages, and C-INTERCAL for a while, accept ¬ as a synonym for NOT) 17:30:01 but ais523 was too 17:30:30 hmm... oerjan's type looks righter than ehird's, at least q can be () then 17:30:51 yes 17:30:54 oerjan's type Is right 17:30:59 and it's what haskell's callcc continuation monad uses 17:31:06 Valid ruby: 17:31:13 add = λ(a,b){ a + b } 17:31:15 puts add.(1, 2) 17:31:26 ugh, why the dot? 17:31:32 ehird: Doesn't work in midori either, but firebug is being unhelpful. 17:31:38 ais523: because in ruby you can call functions without parens 17:31:49 and lambdas give you Procs 17:31:56 a.(b) is short for a.call(b) 17:32:05 also valid ruby: 17:32:08 add = λ a, b { a + b } 17:32:11 (omitting parnes) 17:32:12 *parens 17:32:33 in Perl that would be $add=sub{shift+shift}; say &$add(1,2) 17:32:40 yep 17:32:44 the parens are optional, &$add 1, 2 would work too 17:32:53 also, shift+shift is ridiculous 17:33:03 because it isn't defined which order the shifts evaluate in, but it doesn't matter 17:33:15 shift-shift might not work because you don't know which shift evaluates first 17:33:32 s = λ x { λ y { λ z { x.(z).(y.(z)) } } } 17:33:32 k = λ x { λ y { x } } 17:33:32 i = λ x { x } 17:33:33 $_[0]-$_[1] is the same number of chars and shorter 17:33:43 ... 17:33:45 the same number of chars 17:33:46 and shorter? 17:34:01 I meant more correct, not shorter 17:34:06 ah 17:35:27 ehird: Aha, fixed. Will push in a sec. 17:35:33 yay 17:36:09 OK, pushed. 17:36:16 ais523: 17:36:16 c = 2; -> ;c { c = 1 }.call; c # => 2 17:36:20 MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 17:36:35 The problem is I was checking whether firebug was enabled so I could use its console, but my check didn't work on Safari, so thought it was always enabled. 17:36:51 GregorR: link 17:37:02 ehird: http://codu.org/cheskers/client/cheskers.html# , join game 18 as white 17:37:12 GregorR: did you write cheskers? 17:37:18 Loading... 17:37:19 Loading... 17:37:19 Loading... 17:37:39 ais523: Half. 17:37:42 ehird: WTFBBQ 17:38:14 well, I joined 18 and it seems to work for me 17:38:30 ehird: Works on Midori :P 17:38:44 I take it that the checkers move as in checkers and the chess pieces as in chess/ 17:38:49 ais523: Yes. 17:38:49 what's the win condition? checkmate? 17:38:52 ais523: Yes. 17:38:53 All based on the C we know and love! 17:38:54 you're all mac hating blubberheads. :| 17:39:00 not objective C? 17:39:01 ais523: Wanna play? :P 17:39:02 GregorR: anyway, play a move 17:39:18 >:( 17:39:20 I WANNA PLAY :| 17:39:29 GregorR: I am playing 17:39:40 ais523: So am I, it's your turn ;) 17:39:46 ais523: Whoops, spoke too late. 17:39:50 no it isn't ;) 17:40:03 are captures compulsory? 17:40:06 for the checkers? 17:40:09 ais523: No. Nor is multi-jumping. 17:40:17 GAH I'LL DOWNLOAD FIREFOX. 17:40:18 ais523: They're slightly more like pawns than checkers in that sense. 17:40:24 EVEN THOUGH FIREFOX IS _AWFUL_. 17:40:24 ehird: I want you to play! But I can't test Safari :P 17:40:35 No wait, yes I can, I have a mac laptop :P 17:40:44 but you HATE ME so you won't :P 17:40:50 safari is one of the worst and buggiest mainstream browsers on Windows, but apparently it works a lot better on Mac 17:41:29 Apple suck at windows software 17:41:34 case in point: quicktime 17:41:40 quicktime is the worst, most annoying piece of crap on windows 17:41:46 on mac, it's the best way to play non-music media 17:41:53 was that apple's originally? 17:41:55 * ehird downloads firefox 17:41:59 or did they buy it off someone else? 17:42:00 ais523: QuickTime is Apple's yes 17:42:14 On OS X it's actually the core media framework 17:42:38 strange, it won't let me move my king to f1 or g1 17:42:58 Uhhhh, it should ... 17:43:03 GregorR: OK, link 17:43:15 oh, I see what happened 17:43:18 you put yourself in check last move 17:43:21 and I think that confused it 17:43:22 * ehird pukes over firefox a bit 17:43:27 ehird: http://codu.org/cheskers/client/cheskers.html# , but now I'm in the middle of a game with ais523 :P 17:43:29 you're still in check, by the way 17:43:33 ais523: How so? 17:43:33 I should have just taken your king 17:43:38 Oh looka that :P 17:43:44 Shouldn't have moved THAT checker :P 17:43:48 your king and queen are the wrong way round 17:44:06 ais523: No, they're not, that's a change we made for cheskers. 17:44:12 ais523: It's utterly unfair if they're not swapped. 17:44:12 which is what makes that trick possible 17:44:17 and yes 17:44:30 end your stupid game with ais523 17:44:31 I'M COMIN' IN 17:44:34 what number 17:44:35 :D 17:45:19 you should make moving into check impossible, it screws things up 17:45:33 or do it as in Shogi, where if your king is captured you lose even if you weren't checkmated 17:46:13 the chess pieces seem a lot more useful than the checkers, but I suppose that isn't surprising 17:46:53 ais523: The checkers serve more to get in the way, but that doesn't make them not part of the strategy. 17:47:17 well, obviously, the relatively useless pieces are the same for both players 17:47:27 GregorR: what numberrrrr 17:47:47 ehird: We're playing 18, but don't go taking that over :P 17:47:56 ehird: I'll start a new one 17:48:01 make it 3-player 17:48:02 :P 17:48:12 ehird: http://codu.org/cheskers/client/cheskers.html# join 19 as white 17:48:26 ehird: Actually the server should more-or-less support that, there are just no rulesets in the DB defined for three players. 17:48:44 okay, so what're the rules :x 17:48:50 joined btw 17:49:07 ehird: the same as in chess and in checkers (draughts) combined 17:49:19 yikes. i'm crap at both :-D 17:49:27 ais523: I find it somehow unsurprising that you're better than me at chess :P 17:49:30 ehird: That's fine, I suck too :P 17:49:39 ehird: Your turn. 17:49:43 I'm so crap that I can barely remember how chess works :-D 17:49:48 Err, let's move a checker. 17:50:09 can the two piece types interact? 17:50:35 yes, checkers can take chess pieces by jumping them, chess pieces can take checkers by collision 17:50:38 just as in the actual games 17:50:47 OK 17:51:40 and I used to be captain of the house chess team, although I haven't played since school 17:51:52 ais523: That was a lot of work to decide that move :P 17:52:00 GregorR: I had it planned 17:52:06 ehird: Sorry, go ahead :P 17:52:11 taking the bishop was relatively obvious, after all 17:52:39 I've played chess about thrice in my live 17:52:47 ais523: Enjoy my queen :P 17:53:32 http://homepage.mac.com/avidrissman/extimgs/st.png <- Oh heck yes. 17:53:51 GregorR: it's not as if I didn't set a trap for her two moves ago 17:54:02 but you got a bishop and rook in exchange, that's normally about fair compensation 17:54:35 ais523: In case you haven't noticed, I don't HAVE your rook :P 17:55:02 oh, two bishops 17:55:08 not a bishop and rook, you misplayed that slightly 17:55:24 you could have used the king to defend the queen, and got the rook that way 17:56:13 ehird: Sorry our game is going slow, but ais523 is kickin' my arse :P 17:57:15 ehird: Thanks for the queen :P 17:57:25 ehird: Uh, you just moved into check :P 17:57:32 is there any way to watch games in progress? 17:57:32 :D 17:57:33 ehird: I WIN 17:57:42 I AM STILL MOVING 17:57:42 :D 17:57:54 ais523: You can join any game as any player and just don't play. We have an observer player built in, but I forgot to add it to the UI X-D 17:58:07 -!- Hiato has joined. 17:58:36 GregorR: does it detect checkmate/ 17:58:42 it should at least ban moves into check 17:58:48 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7xe5p/give_it_up_reddit_python_c_print_njoin_joinn_for/c07o0ty <- first reply is golden 17:58:50 ais523: It should, but it doesn't :P 18:00:21 also, what happens when you crown a checker? 18:00:44 ais523: It turns into a king. 18:00:48 ehird: a BF program that does something ekse 18:00:48 ais523: HAW HAW JUST KIDDING 18:00:57 ais523: It turns into what we call an "ace", which is just like a checker king 18:00:57 GregorR: a checkers king, or a chess king? 18:01:01 ah, ok 18:01:18 ehird: a BF program that does something ekse 18:01:18 what 18:01:29 ais523: It'd be funny though if it turned into a chess king ;) 18:01:42 the BF program doesn't do the same as the Python program 18:02:21 I can't tell from my head what it does print, but it prints lots of different letters, not just * and space 18:03:21 ais523: ... "first reply is golden" 18:03:27 was the keyword in that link 18:03:32 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 18:03:46 * GregorR is struggling for good moves :( 18:04:35 ehird: it's even funnier in that it's correct, though 18:04:39 it would be funny even if it was wrong 18:04:49 yes 18:04:55 you seemed to be looking at just the first post,t hough 18:04:58 GregorR: you only /have/ one legal move here... 18:05:08 ehird: it's more fun when trying to work out if the post is correct 18:05:16 yeah I thought it was a joke at first 18:05:48 ais523: That doesn't mean I can't cry myself to sleep looking at the board :P 18:06:09 looks like it's going to be a long endgame which I win convincingly, based on that 18:08:37 GregorR: check, just to make sure you notice 18:09:10 and mate 18:09:31 WITH MY DYING BREATH I KILL YOUR QUEEN 18:09:56 RAAAA ANARCHIST CHESS 18:10:11 do I really have to spend the time to take all your other pieces too/ 18:10:15 your king is already dead... 18:10:29 No :P 18:10:33 it's not dead, it's just resting... 18:10:44 captured, to be precise 18:10:47 in my castle 18:10:57 I want anarchist nomic 18:11:10 what, nomic without rules? 18:11:15 isn't that an oxymoron? 18:12:05 oxymoron: someone so stupid they don't deserve to breathe air 18:12:38 ais523: :D 18:14:14 ais523: So anyway, aside from how much I suck at chess, don't you think that cheskers adds an interesting dynamic to the game? (Since some of your pieces which would otherwise take a few moves to release are free, but because they start out free they're quite valuable and so bringing them out too early is unwise) 18:14:57 it's somewhere between chess and shogi in terms of playstyle 18:15:13 it basically forces open games, as it's impossible to clog the board up with pawns 18:15:19 Yuh 18:15:19 and it's harder to defend things 18:17:50 Not that you needed to defend anything >_< 18:18:07 that's because you weren't attacking 18:18:20 That's because I was spending half the game defending :P 18:18:34 s/half/all/ 18:18:48 does black play first? 18:18:53 Yes. 18:19:09 Whoa, Leopard's speech synthesis is creepily realistic. 18:19:47 Oh, that's not right :P 18:19:51 White is supposed to play first :P 18:20:04 * ehird uploads example 18:20:40 ais523: I don't know what you're talking about, white plays first and that's how it's implemented! *cough* 18:21:15 -!- FireFly has joined. 18:21:38 hi FireFly 18:21:44 Hello 18:22:03 hmm... what esolang projects are people working on at the moment? 18:22:11 GregorR: sure you're name isn't really George L? :D 18:22:13 *your 18:22:18 I'm not, really, I'm busy with other things (although continuing to think about Underlambda) 18:22:34 I'm finding Sir. Cut interesting 18:22:35 oerjan: ........................................... joke: FAILED 18:22:49 DID NOT 18:22:59 oerjan: WELL I DIDN'T GET IT 18:23:05 also, trying to work out if an infinite-memory version of Advance Wars would be Turing-complete with the default AI 18:23:25 ...the game? 18:23:28 yes 18:23:32 GregorR: i guess you don't read Darths & Droids, or anything else Star Wars... 18:23:32 I managed to create a loop 18:23:39 Ooh 18:23:41 Tell me 18:23:43 with a red infantry and a blue infantry who continuously walked round in circles 18:23:51 Sounds interesting 18:23:52 Creepy OS X text to speech: http://filebin.ca/zfgscj/speech.ogg 18:24:17 if you go city plains river river plains plains river river city plains river river plains plains river river 18:24:28 CLICK AT YOUR OWN RISK 18:24:28 bent round in a loop so the last river connects to the first city 18:24:33 and start an infantry on each city 18:24:52 then the two infantry will both go round in the same direction, never encountering each other 18:24:57 at least with the "defensive" AI 18:25:04 Hmm 18:25:31 the reason being that going forwards, the infantry goes city / plains river / river plains / plains river / river city 18:25:34 and repeats from there 18:25:36 * oerjan almost forgets swatting FireFly -----### 18:25:44 Why? :< 18:25:59 going backwards it would be city / river / river plains / plains river / river plains / city 18:26:02 which is one turn longer 18:26:08 Ah 18:26:10 and the AI always chooses the shortest route 18:26:11 Makes sense 18:26:13 FireFly: you're a firefly 18:26:15 oh, i was just not paying attention 18:26:17 so both infantry go round in the same direction 18:26:17 he has a fly swatter 18:26:28 * FireFly dies 18:26:44 and they want to keep going round so as to capture each other's cities, which exchange ownership every 5 turns 18:26:58 That's really interesting 18:27:10 I think this principle can be extended with 3 players to make increment and decrement operations on two counters 18:27:17 where the counters are the amount of money each team has 18:27:29 the problem is getting that to affect control flow 18:27:47 Does nobody find it as creepy as I? 18:28:19 well, infantry walking round and round in little squares in a post-apocalyptic wasteland forever is pretty creepy 18:28:39 Not that 18:28:40 :P 18:29:36 ais523: This: http://filebin.ca/zfgscj/speech.ogg 18:30:03 ehird: this isn't my computer, and it doesn't have speakers or ogg codecs 18:30:08 what's the chance I'll be able to play it? 18:30:12 ah. 18:30:31 Not over 9000% 18:30:51 where does the over 9000 meme come from? 18:30:53 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:30:58 ais523: a youtube video 18:31:07 using a few seconds of the show Dragonball Z 18:31:23 oh, I've heard of Dragonball Z 18:31:29 but IIRC, 9000 is rather low in the context of that show 18:31:35 ais523: Here's a text transcript: http://qntm.org/?9000 18:31:42 what is qntm.org? 18:31:48 this terminal has internet filters 18:32:14 qntm.org is the website of Sam Hughes. 18:32:26 Is it blocked? 18:32:29 never heard of him, I don't think 18:32:36 and no idea, I'd have to click on it to find out 18:32:41 It's just text. 18:32:43 and visiting a blocked website gets you in trouble 18:32:44 Sam Hughes is a brilliant sci-fi author. 18:32:48 some really weird things are blocked here, though 18:32:51 such as the X11 licence 18:32:55 ais523: How to Destroy the Earth - he wrote that. 18:33:01 well, the licence isn't weird, but the fact it's blocked is 18:33:07 Btw, the DS version of advance wars? 18:33:08 And the Earth Destruction Advisory Board. 18:33:13 And the Fine Structure series. And ... 18:33:18 FireFly: there are two DS versions of advance wars 18:33:28 Ah.. Well, theres also a GBA version 18:33:32 I was trying on Dark Conflict, which is probably better for esoprogramming because of the temporary ports 18:33:35 Or, at least one 18:33:39 Hm 18:33:40 and there are also two GBA versions, so oyu fail in that respect too 18:33:40 Brb google 18:33:46 :< 18:33:52 "Brb google"? 18:34:08 Nvm 18:34:25 Fnd. Grb lk lpsfn 18:36:08 Ugh. 18:36:10 ferret.c: In function ‘rs2s’: 18:36:10 ferret.c:165: error: ‘struct RString’ has no member named ‘ptr’ 18:38:26 well let's hope it's easy to ferret out that bug 18:38:43 * ehird kills oerjan with a fork 18:38:43 ferret.c? 18:39:02 ais523: ferret = ruby bindings to indexer thingy 18:39:03 * ais523 vaguely mumbles something about cruelty to forks 18:39:14 * oerjan realizes he deserves it, and croaks 18:39:22 hmm not binding, native, okay 18:39:29 * ehird revives oerjan because puns are fun 18:44:30 Brains... 18:55:32 * oerjan realizes ehird is a master strategist 18:55:44 He is capable of many-pronged attacks... 18:55:58 ok, that's a good pun 18:57:46 XD 18:59:15 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:02:27 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 19:05:48 http://welldonefillet.blogspot.com/2009/01/stabbing-fork-what-is-it-good-for.html 19:16:19 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:30:52 An irritating algorithm to code: Find the rightmost, deepest application in an SKI application. 19:33:14 -!- FireFly has quit (Excess Flood). 19:35:34 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 19:36:04 This, by the way, lets you lazily evaluate SKI and get a non-blowing-up SII(SII): 19:36:05 ```sii``sii 19:36:05 ``i``sii`i``sii 19:36:05 ``i``sii``sii 19:36:05 ```sii``sii 19:36:24 "Non-blowing-up" being the technical term of course. 19:36:28 Since you evaluate the rightmost, deepest expression that can be reduced (`sx can't be reduced, ```sxyz can be) 19:36:30 GregorR: Yep. 19:37:01 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:37:15 oerjan: say, is that reduction lazy? 19:37:17 I think so 19:37:46 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:38:04 Heh, here's a new chess variant: Stupidly-friendly chess. You're never allowed to put a king in check :P 19:38:07 um lazy implies leftmost... 19:38:16 oerjan: sure? 19:38:35 GregorR: winner decided by arbitration? 19:38:54 pretty sure 19:39:09 oerjan: it would check the parent expression 19:39:23 so in ``kk```sii``sii, it wouldn't loop 19:39:34 Deewiant: Eventually somebody has to give up from being bored of the sixteen hour game they've just been playing :P 19:39:41 because while ```sii``sii is the rightmost, deepest expression you can evaluate, its parent is a `kx 19:39:44 GregorR: a tie will happen eventually 19:39:48 so it skips straight to the ``kkx 19:39:58 Deewiant: Well, it's assumed you're trying to avoid stalemate :P 19:40:07 Ah, well that's crap. :-P 19:40:14 NORLY!?! 19:40:15 :P 19:40:39 ehird: well then you aren't really doing rightmost 19:40:42 Chesssss: Stupidity-friendly chess but whoever makes the move leading to a tie wins. 19:40:44 oerjan: true 19:40:53 Something like that might make sense if the winner is decided by strength of pieces remaining (what's the term) when a tie happens 19:40:56 it's rightmost-deepest-if-would-be-evaluated-anyway 19:41:04 still lazy 19:41:14 There's a precursor to chess in which if you get it into a stalemate you win. 19:41:20 So that's not without precedent. 19:41:26 Yep. 19:41:54 oerjan: in ````skkkk```sii``sii, it'd evaluate the func to find out if it's k first, ofc 19:41:55 (and it is) 19:42:45 ehird: you are ending up with leftmost, i say 19:43:01 oerjan: no, because: 19:43:01 [19:36:04] ```sii``sii 19:43:02 [19:36:04] ``i``sii`i``sii 19:43:02 [19:36:04] ``i``sii``sii 19:43:03 [19:36:04] ```sii``sii 19:43:07 (evaluated in my head according to these rules) 19:44:45 if you replace the first ``sii with something else that turns into `kk but only _after_ applying it, but still without using its argument... 19:44:58 oerjan: hm? 19:45:11 oerjan: it checks the result of the evaluation but does not replac 19:45:20 so it sees that `i``sii = ``sii, but leaves it as is in the expression 19:45:22 so it can do rightmost 19:45:50 bah 19:46:04 oerjan: what 19:46:21 essentially you evaluate leftmost until you find that something more rightward happens to be evaluated, then you backtrack 19:46:33 pretty much 19:46:46 still lazy, as far as I can tell, and evaluates ```sii``sii without growing 19:47:13 hm 19:47:27 you know call by _need_ is what you really want, i think 19:47:44 You can't do that in ski 19:47:48 since there are no bindings 19:47:54 i.e. the expansion happens only because evaluating one copy doesn't evaluate the others 19:47:56 call by need = call by name, without bindings 19:49:19 you can do graph sharing 19:49:25 oerjan: vut 19:49:42 like, search the tree for all occurances of the same expr 19:49:42 ? 19:49:46 i.e. when doing ```sxyz -> ``xz`yz , the z should be _shared_ 19:49:57 ah 19:50:07 in fact that's enough since that's the only ski rule that duplicates things 19:50:08 oerjan: but ``xz`yz isn't reduced immediately 19:50:21 I'm doing step-until-x-==-eval(x) 19:50:31 so it'll just return App (App x z) (App y z) 19:50:39 where z = App S K or whatever 19:51:46 oerjan: so how do you do it then? 19:52:07 well haskell datatypes don't usually allow sharing detection 19:52:11 yeah 19:52:30 you need some id or monadic references for that 19:52:39 that's what I'm avoiding :-( 19:53:20 you could also use a tie-the-knot trick, where you bundle the evaluation of z with z 19:53:27 "bundle"? 19:54:09 does haskell do multiplication lazily? 19:54:14 bsmntbombdood: no 19:54:21 what's 0 * _|_ 19:54:28 unless you define a numeric datatype where it does 19:54:33 it's _|_ 19:54:55 in the standard datatypes, arithmetic is strict in all arguments 19:58:02 ehird: i'm not sure if it would be useful to you, essentially it would implement ski laziness with haskell laziness, but maybe add some symbolic tags or something 19:58:02 for reasons of SPEED 20:11:45 * ehird installs gtk2hs to install yi 20:11:48 to edit this ski thingymabob 20:32:19 Cheskers now has support for chess (minus proper promotions (always promotes to queen) and en passant) 20:34:25 also castling? 20:35:33 castling is a rule that's actually used, you can't leave *that* out. 20:36:23 it strictly requires keeping some extra state, though 20:36:36 Whoops, forgot about castling entirely X-D 20:37:03 as does en passant 20:37:16 En passant requires less. 20:37:46 yeah 20:39:17 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 20:52:53 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 20:55:50 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird|away. 20:57:41 -!- FireFly has joined. 21:03:00 -!- ehird|away has changed nick to ehird. 21:11:08 -!- Judofyr has quit ("sleeping"). 21:34:19 Implemented castling :) 21:34:43 ooh, what is this? 21:34:48 BFchess? 21:35:00 lol, no, it actually has no relevance to this channel whatsoever :P 21:35:08 KICKBAN 21:35:27 A friend of mine and I wrote a game server to play a mix of chess and checkers (cheskers), and now I'm generalizing it to play most any game on a vaguely chess-like board. 21:35:38 (As well as properly supporting all the basic chess rules :P ) 21:36:41 mixed how? 21:37:11 You start with a row of chess pieces and two rows of checker pieces. 21:37:44 ok... 21:38:32 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 21:38:41 That's it :P 21:38:48 Beyond that it's just standard chess and checkers rules. 21:38:59 But it changes the dynamics of the game a lot. 21:39:04 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:39:43 I imagine one ends up with a useful bishop and a crap bishop 21:39:55 Indeed. 21:40:10 We call them the "free" bishop and the "pinned" bishop. 21:40:19 ö 21:40:21 Same is true (to a much lesser degree) of the knights. 21:40:24 r 21:40:44 Ü 21:41:01 m 21:42:45 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird|away. 21:45:10 hi 21:45:15 -!- ehird|away has changed nick to ehird. 21:45:19 you don't exist 21:45:38 you're an anti-entity 21:45:40 yep 21:45:46 no, not you 21:45:50 Yeah, well you're an auntie-entity 21:45:56 the other guy, who said hi 21:46:12 your evil remote twin 21:47:26 auntities and other uncleanness 21:47:36 aunt titties 21:48:29 whatever turns you on 21:48:44 ... *stab* 21:49:03 for which one? 21:49:12 ehird. 21:49:24 :´( 21:49:42 * ehird is dead. :-( 21:49:50 oerjan: What, you think I'm stabbing with sunshine and rainbows? :P 21:50:08 hm does that mean your auntity now exists? 21:54:44 There's a little bit of aunt titty in all of us. 21:59:15 uuuuhhhhh, ooook 21:59:38 hi SimonRC 22:05:17 -!- Corun has joined. 22:19:22 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 22:41:25 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:55:41 * SimonRC goes 23:03:24 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:06:45 -!- Deewiant has joined. 23:09:40 -!- oerjan has quit ("Argh"). 23:13:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:24:00 -!- jix has joined. 23:30:52 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 23:31:03 ehird da 23:31:27 i showed the Life sierpinski gasket to my philosophy-and-computers prof and his response was "you gotta be frikkin kidding me" 23:32:56 :DD 23:33:23 :) 23:36:30 ... Sierpinski gasket in life? 23:36:34 ?? 23:36:40 yes? 23:36:42 * pikhq want see 23:37:01 i showed it off the other day after ehird's doubly mirrored gasket :| 23:37:13 wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Golly1.jpg 23:37:15 wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Golly2.jpg 23:37:20 oh whoops 23:37:32 wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Golly1.png 23:37:34 wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Golly2.png 23:38:27 pikhq: just draw a long perfectly straight line 23:38:33 voila: sierpinski. 23:38:44 Well. Damn. 23:38:46 yeah 23:38:48 it has to be one of the top coincidences of the century. 23:38:50 pretty crazy 23:39:00 i'm sure there's a deep mathematical reason for it 23:39:02 it's just amazing 23:39:05 oh there is 23:39:08 More accurately, it's not a coincidence at all, as i'm sure there's a deep mathematical reason for it 23:39:10 its pretty simple when you look up close 23:39:16 its amazingly obvious 23:39:20 GregorR: it wasn't intended, though 23:39:28 to the best of my knowledge 23:39:37 the reason is basically this ok 23:39:37 Right, 'struth. 23:39:50 the long line spawns two neighboring lines, right 23:39:59 because of the rule for cell activation 23:40:00 right 23:40:05 so you go from ...010... 23:40:10 to ...01110... 23:40:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("godnatt"). 23:40:30 this then creates two more neighboring lines, while killing off those original three due to crowding 23:40:35 yeah 23:40:35 so you get ...0100010... 23:40:48 and now you have the same thing again 23:40:50 yep 23:40:51 only doubled 23:40:56 and separated by 3 0's 23:41:00 and the debris it generates = sierpinski 23:41:12 this keeps happening, separating out the long single lines, doubling each time 23:41:44 so that as they build outwards, they naturally form sierpinski's triangle by just .. spreading and doubling. 23:44:23 -!- jix has quit ("activating sleep mode ......... Done"). 23:44:41 hm this explains why it forms initially on the border of the shrinking lines, but not why it doesn't decay more afterwards (although the picture shows some decay) 23:44:51 -!- comex has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating..."). 23:45:02 that's not decay 23:45:04 it smoothes out 23:45:08 it doesnt decay afterwards because it just ends up producing oscillators 23:45:44 so somewhat accidental perhaps 23:45:59 or maybe symmetry comes into it 23:47:58 -!- comex has joined. 23:48:16 oh dude 23:48:19 Golly has the metapixel 23:48:39 huh? 23:48:45 it has a number of them it seems 23:48:54 the self-simulation of Life 23:49:38 wait golly = GoL ? 23:49:48 no Golly is an app for running GoL 23:49:58 ah 2009-02-16: 00:00:07 Brb 00:00:11 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:00:15 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 00:11:45 * Sgeo doesn't get Banks 00:12:27 i think it's a cultural thing 00:12:49 I meant in Golly 00:13:12 way to ruin my pun 00:15:39 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:39:11 oerjan: i like you pun. :| 00:40:14 * oerjan does a happy dance 00:53:08 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 01:04:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:12:11 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 02:55:28 EVERYBODY DO THE R M R F SLASH DAAAANCE 03:09:24 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi. 03:24:07 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:38:59 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 05:19:05 -!- chuck has quit ("Reconnecting"). 05:19:08 -!- chuck has joined. 05:23:45 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:25:14 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 07:00:53 Bye all 07:01:09 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:19:07 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 10:06:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:11:47 omgwtfxkcd 10:19:00 o.o; 10:19:07 its uh.. slightly.. stupid. 10:19:15 and by slightly i mean very. 10:19:27 and by very you mean enormously. 10:31:25 cool 10:31:26 let's see 10:33:09 let's drink and sing and do the hokey pokey 10:34:41 okay not loading is not very funny, i admit it. 10:35:05 positively a 1 on the scale 10:37:35 on what scale? C, R, N? 10:37:58 oh my connection is local only, no wonder i can't access the nets.. 10:38:11 que 10:38:31 it's a numeric scale. 10:38:44 you'd think if the mirc dude can write a strong ai to converse with me, he'd also manage to make it check whether i'm online. 10:38:49 it goes up to either 9, or 10. 10:39:00 i mean of course i notice if it keeps talking to me even when i'm offline. 10:39:09 or possibly 6, if you're in norway 10:40:47 btw could someone network-knowledgeable tell me why exactly i can always irc even when my internet is down? probably vista's just lying to me ofc. 10:40:50 also i'm not an AI, i'm a platonic ideal and you are really sitting in a cave, watching shadows. 10:41:11 i always found that comparison kinda stupid 10:41:42 no idea but recently IE has started acting up on me so i see a similar phenomenon 10:42:26 it's weird, after i close all IE windows it won't connect again, until i restart the machine 10:43:57 also it takes a while having the windows open before it happens on closing 10:44:17 -!- oklofok has joined. 10:44:29 can you connect with anything other than irc/http? 10:44:31 i thought the xkcd was okay. 10:44:38 and i disconnected 10:44:39 also, did you hear anything i said? 10:44:42 resay everything you said 10:44:48 ARGH 10:44:52 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 10:45:06 i take that as a sign it was stupid, and refuse :/ 10:45:21 k i'll read logs 10:45:29 since the only actual _advice_ was after you rejoined :D 10:45:35 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:46:49 i disconnected because i flipped the switch on and off 10:46:50 i _suspect_ my virus scanner, since it happened after an update of it that coincidentally made it work properly in other ways 10:47:30 suspecting is a sign of having a hunch 10:47:31 otoh there were some Windows security updates too, when i think about it. 10:48:07 so what was so bad about pep talk? 10:48:24 it was a *groan* kind of joke 10:48:41 hmm, k 10:50:41 much better than any kind of pun could ever be imo, and xkcd has had those 10:50:55 puns are a lesser category of jokes 10:51:01 i _thought_ it had something to do with a full virus scan bringing my laptop nearly to its knees, but yesterday it happened again even though i have turned off the automatic scheduling 10:51:13 of course it's kinda stupid he explains it 10:51:24 * oerjan swats oklofok viciously -----### 10:52:02 he could've more like boosted his talk, now we *really* need to start playing 10:52:13 vicicivicivi 10:52:38 is icv tc 10:52:40 yeah a bit of that british understatement thing 10:52:47 what is icv 10:52:53 ``icv 10:52:56 veni vidi vici 10:53:11 err british understatement thing? 10:53:12 doubt it 10:53:28 less doubting, more proving! 10:53:37 the british invented understatements, surely 10:53:53 unless they stole it from the ancient romans 10:54:04 i don't know, as i cannot read jokes in latin 10:54:40 well lessee i recall adding i to subtle cough did not achieve much 10:55:04 don't recall checking it thoroughly 10:55:12 well seems you'd just end up building pipes, then using them to achieve nothing 10:55:16 if my intuition about i is right 10:55:25 i expect the same methodology to work though 10:55:52 there is no s, so no real duplication, so i suspect it's not tc 10:56:06 hmm trutru 10:56:22 could make a stronger claim: unlambda without s is probably not tc 10:56:37 less b more v! 10:56:57 but, umm, yeah, prolly 10:57:11 i just want my tc cough combinators 10:57:51 `ci = `i(*) = (*) = `cc iirc 10:59:20 ``cci = `(`*i)i = `ii = i 11:00:57 seems i need to find something to eat 11:01:16 hm the continuations mean applying i first need not be trivial 11:01:23 `ic = c ofc 11:01:52 but `i`cc = `i(`i*) = (`i*) 11:02:01 admittedly that's probably = (*) 11:02:18 ok applying i is still trivial 11:03:40 so 11:03:41 ``ccA 11:03:41 ``c(`*A)A 11:03:41 `(`*A)A 11:03:41 `AA 11:03:43 is this right 11:04:03 hmm 11:04:07 did you do just that 11:04:08 yes 11:04:10 heh :D 11:04:14 something like it 11:04:44 i always do that, i see you do something, but before i start thinking what it is, i get an idea, try it out, and realize i did what you did. 11:04:52 :D 11:05:14 and _still_ you don't believe in the subconscious ;D 11:05:19 i mean i invented your continuation syntax after not understanding how yours worked from taking a glimpse at it. 11:05:23 :P 11:05:33 i believe in *a* subconscious! 11:05:40 wait do i? probably not 11:06:26 so it seems adding i adds only i 11:06:44 `iv = `vi = v 11:07:30 `cv = `v(*) = v 11:08:24 `vA = v if A terminates without throwing a cont. 11:08:24 but so for any function f, `f`ci = `i(`f*) = (`f*), and `f`cc = `c(`f*) = `f(*), how are they are the same? 11:08:33 adding i adds only i? 11:09:06 to subtle cough that is 11:09:16 right 11:10:05 er `f`ci = `f(`f*) 11:10:26 assuming f is not a complex expression 11:10:46 umm ofc right 11:11:09 always forget the returning 11:12:22 ``ccv = `(`*v)v = `vv = v 11:12:26 continuations are a bit hard to analyze with syntactic transforms. 11:12:39 a tiny bit 11:12:41 they lack locality 11:13:15 the thing is when you apply an equation `cc = (*), you need to replace () by the continuation you put it in 11:14:15 hm so in theory you should not do that until `cc becomes the next term to evaluate 11:14:47 so you mean you need to have strict evaluation also in the rewriting? 11:14:52 yeah 11:15:10 with continuations, are there multiple normal forms? 11:15:29 i don't know 11:15:49 if not, are there infinite loops resulting from single missteps? 11:15:55 i don't know either. 11:16:18 is there actually any theory of combinators + continuations? i mean obviously it's goddamn fucking interesting. 11:16:51 well of course it would just be the theory of lambda calculus + continuations 11:16:56 but i haven't seen that theory either 11:17:28 well there is obviously a theory of lambda calculus + continuations, since that is known to have a curry-howard isomorphism with classical boolean logic 11:17:45 s/obviously // 11:18:15 oh. i see i see. 11:19:07 continuations allow you to extract the law of excluded middle 11:19:28 and what would that be? 11:19:40 A or not A 11:20:14 ah 11:20:55 or something like that. not not A => A is simpler 11:21:18 basically, not A is the type of a continuation that takes a value of type A 11:21:50 hm this is not clear at all 11:22:36 http://xkcd.com/380/ <<< i don't get this 11:23:04 oerjan: i know very little about CHI. 11:23:29 oerjan: basically, not A is the type of a continuation that takes a value of type A <<< i don't even get this. 11:24:08 that's a basilisk. if you look at a basilisk, you die. 11:24:40 if you see its face, or something 11:24:41 ohhh, i thought ":)" somehow indicated it was a snake :P 11:24:59 The "BSLSK" should've been a clue. 11:25:19 yes, but i read it as "old schoold" 11:25:21 *school 11:25:57 poll: does oklofok need a new monitor or new glasses? 11:26:11 A scary emoticon is the ":)" where the : character is in the bright color -- you know, :), or ^B:^B) -- but I think our +c mode filters that one out. 11:26:12 somehow ")" was the sex, it means a snake. i have no idea how, also ":" was its age, it was a two-year-old snake 11:26:26 but something still bugged me about it... 11:27:27 on the internet, no one knows you are a basilisk. until it is too late. 11:28:52 oerjan: i read "bslsk", i just thought it was a shorthand for "old school", kinda like ":)" is short for two year old snake... :) 11:29:30 `v`cc = `v(`v*) = v 11:30:09 i think that pretty much nails it 11:30:57 maybe so. 11:31:47 what's ``scc? 11:32:02 missing an argument 11:32:58 yeah but X reduced, where X is the reduction that's about behavios. 11:32:59 *behavior 11:33:06 eta 11:33:22 so they were A B E? 11:33:35 yeah 11:33:41 A being the nothing, E being the behavior, B being umm evaluation? 11:34:08 i have no clue why those were chosen 11:34:20 well at least the E 11:34:36 import threading 11:34:38 import time 11:34:41 import sys 11:34:42 class InputThread(threading.Thread): 11:34:44 def run(self): 11:34:46 while True: 11:34:58 beh.... I need to type /sp to make it stop 11:34:58 ```sccf = ``cf`cf = ``f(`*`cf)`cf 11:35:24 oerjan: so it's kinda duplication? 11:36:00 well s does that 11:36:14 yes, but i mean call that C, is it tc? :D 11:36:48 you seem i'm trying to come up with supercough, but since i've failed myself, i'm using you to do the actual thinking. 11:36:53 *you see 11:37:18 now that is a recipe for disaster 11:37:21 so if i come up with it, it's still my idea, you're just the program i used to do the testing. 11:37:27 maybe so :) 11:38:07 what do you mean "call that C" 11:38:17 oerjan: well have that as the only combinator 11:38:25 ah. 11:38:48 well applying it to itself for a start... 11:39:26 i mean in general, do continuations add any kind of computational power 11:39:47 is there a non-tc set of combinators such that adding call/cc makes them tc 11:39:56 well 11:40:06 actually that scc thing doesn't answer that, it's a bit different again 11:40:07 i would guess there is. but that doesn't necessarily say much. 11:40:15 it doesn't? 11:40:21 oh your guess doesn't 11:40:25 well true, it doesn't. 11:40:40 actually i wasn't talking about my guess 11:40:54 oh 11:41:03 then what do you mean, i mean that would be awesome. 11:41:10 so it does say something 11:41:22 i mean you can make convoluted things that just miss a little piece to be tc, that doesn't really say much about the power of the missing piece 11:42:04 it says something about its power 11:42:26 or well at least the lack thereof does 11:43:13 ```scc``scc = ``c``scc``c``scc 11:43:32 er 11:43:36 ```scc``scc = ``c``scc`c``scc 11:44:59 = ````scc(`*`c``scc)`c``scc 11:45:09 _maybe_ 11:46:17 = ```c(`*`c``scc)`c(`*`c``scc)`c``scc 11:46:51 well that's just sick. 11:47:07 hm we have a subproblem of `c``scc in there 11:48:13 `c``scc = ```scc(*) = ``c(*)`c(*) = ``(*)(`*`c(*))`c(*) 11:48:23 now that was an immense improvement 11:49:06 yes, superficially speaking 11:49:22 11:49:22 i can't say i still actually *understand* these expressions. 11:49:32 i think it looks prettier :) 11:50:50 oh wait of course that simplifies at the next step, it throws a continuation :) 11:51:05 `c``scc = ```scc(*) = ``c(*)`c(*) = ``(*)(`*`c(*))`c(*) = (`*`c(*)) 11:51:24 yes 11:51:53 now substitute that in 11:53:03 ```scc``scc = ``c``scc`c``scc = `(``*`c(*)`c``scc)`c``scc i hope 11:53:29 haha 11:53:41 okay that looks kinda nice :) 11:53:59 the next step is to do the same to the second part 11:55:19 oh wait 11:55:47 that's wrong, i didn't adjust the (*) 11:56:38 ```scc``scc = ``c``scc`c``scc = `(``*`c(`*`c``scc)`c``scc)`c``scc 11:56:58 you do realize you could just run a few steps in an unlambda interp? i guess they wouldn't show the continuations though 11:57:12 indeed they wouldn't 11:57:22 i have one that does, apart from the actual combinators, but they could be added in a minute 11:57:43 of course i don't actually have it anymore, lost a lot of shit when my hd died. 11:59:20 one point, maybe it would be worth checking if it actually terminates :D 11:59:53 but would that actually tell no expressions involving it do? 11:59:54 ouch it seems not 12:00:00 it would at least strongly hint it 12:00:10 the problem is even that doesn't necessarily say it's not tc :P 12:00:25 would be so much easier if i was less dumb. 12:00:36 um it really does 12:00:36 i could just answer my questions myself 12:01:00 oerjan: no not really. it could do useful computation, then always hit somekinda trivial loop afterwards. 12:01:39 erm _every_ subexpression of the form ```scc``scc will not terminate if ever evaluated 12:02:08 and you cannot do anything in this language that doesn't start with just that 12:02:10 well that does say it's not tc. 12:02:55 but i meant that subexpression could've used the upper continuation in its nonterminating loop, and somehow done computation anyway 12:03:02 I HAVE NO IDEA 12:03:57 oh of course ``cA`cB is a well-known construction in unlambda, someone was playing with it just the other day, it tends to create infinite loops 12:04:50 someone where? 12:04:56 here on channel 12:05:29 i see i see, i've been a bit offline. 12:05:35 whoever made that unlambda bot 12:05:44 ehird i think 12:05:50 well he made an unlambda interp 12:05:53 so... 12:06:57 anyway if an expression does not contain an embedded continuation, then it initially has access only to its containing one 12:07:30 makes sense. 12:07:43 which means even if it _does_ throw a continuation, it will end up looking like a normal return from the outside 12:08:12 so if it doesn't terminate, it cannot interact with the outside at all 12:08:39 finally the monkey catches the titanium ball 12:08:47 i'm convinced 12:08:51 i should eat something now 12:09:41 * oerjan was briefly wondering if that was a weird metaphor or if you were playing some game on the side 12:10:02 Which one was it? I'm still wondering. 12:10:03 both, i'm playing the game with you 12:17:33 okay 12:17:35 seriously 12:17:37 i'm gonna go now 14:01:00 -!- oerjan has quit ("Cibus"). 14:16:53 why isn't my quicklog playing 14:17:17 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird|away. 14:17:26 -!- ehird|away has changed nick to ehird. 14:19:31 aha 14:22:32 i conclude miau sucks dicks 14:22:35 multiple dicks 14:27:35 04:03:57 oh of course ``cA`cB is a well-known construction in unlambda, someone was playing with it just the other day, it tends to create infinite loops 14:27:36 yeah, me 14:27:55 ```ci`c.ai prints a forever 14:28:05 ``ci`cX = infinite Xs :D 14:28:12 Noooooooooooo 14:28:18 what 14:35:05 INFINITY 14:35:59 ya 15:01:17 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:02:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:17:37 http://dobbscodetalk.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Porting-D-to-the-Mac-Pt.-3.html&Itemid=29 15:17:40 finally 15:22:13 On a Macintosh monitor, the notional resolution is 72 dots-per -inch 15:22:13 But on a Windows monitor the resolution is (usually) 96 dpi 15:22:16 how things change 15:24:04 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:24:01 -!- Corun has joined. 16:31:34 so, who's alive 16:41:31 oklofok 16:47:46 :< 16:58:22 * ski__ is not alive 16:58:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("bye"). 16:58:42 yay 16:58:43 :P 17:05:30 loeb : forall u : U. Bew (imp (bew u) u) -> Bew u 17:11:05 loeb loeb loeb loeb 17:11:16 loeb is the essence of computing loeb. 17:12:48 who here's used llvm? 17:18:47 loeb is a quite stange theorem 17:19:07 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:19:20 It is loebelicious, clearly. 17:19:45 "Assuming you'd believe that if you believe a statement, then that statement is true. Would you then believe the statement was true ?" 17:19:48 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:20:18 (for any specific "statement" you like to consider) 17:20:31 Undefined, because that's a recursive definition 17:20:34 no? 17:20:37 wrong ! 17:20:48 loeb's theorem is *provable* 17:21:09 weird. 17:21:21 it seems like you can't unwrap the belief to truth without assuming that, no? 17:22:16 (given a suitable interpretation of "believe" .. here "you" can e.g. be the formal system of Peano Arithmetic, and "believe" means that Peano Arithmetic can prove that Peano Arithmetic can prove the statement) 17:22:36 ah. 17:23:54 * ski__ is interested in finding computable interpretations of loeb's theorem 17:24:19 (i.e. as a programming function) 17:25:20 exists, I'm pretty sure 17:25:32 http://blog.sigfpe.com/2006/12/tying-knots-generically.html 17:25:37 > loeb :: Functor a => a (a x -> x) -> a x 17:25:38 > loeb x = fmap (\a -> a (loeb x)) x 17:25:40 loeb loeb loeb loeb loeb 17:25:41 hi ais523 17:25:57 hi 17:27:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:28:51 ehird : yes, that's something like what i want 17:29:06 the "only" trouble with that is that it's inconsistent 17:29:43 loeb [(\[x,y] -> y),(\[x,y] -> x)] 17:29:45 will diverge 17:30:25 i want interpretations which will terminate (or be productive, if codata), given terminating (productive) inputs 17:33:14 ski__: specialize it on just functions? 17:33:18 loeb :: a -> ((a -> x) -> x) -> a -> x 17:33:26 err 17:33:30 loeb :: (a -> ((a -> x) -> x)) -> a -> x 17:33:41 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:34:18 -!- Deewiant has joined. 17:36:30 loeb (\() f -> f ()) () 17:36:35 would diverge, too 17:38:06 ski__: "Assuming you'd believe that if you believe a statement, then that statement is true. Would you then believe the statement was true ?" <<< is there something paradoxical i'm missing here? 17:38:52 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 17:39:02 oklofok: if you believe something, do you necessarily believe you believe it? 17:39:31 or can people be mistaken about what they believe? 17:39:33 ais523 : yes, that's also a good question (but not what `loeb' above is about) 17:39:45 oklofok : depends on whether you've found anything paradoxial 17:40:41 believing is when you've decided to hold something as true. 17:41:10 therefore by definition if you believe, you believe you believe. 17:41:25 of course this might not be a definition suitable for everyone, i just hate philosophy. 17:41:36 hmm, should probably join #philosophy again 17:41:43 17:42:10 8| 17:42:16 holy shit that's hot stuff :D 17:42:23 Conceited reasoner^[1]^[4]: A reasoner is conceited, if they believe they are never inaccurate. A conceited reasoner will necessarily lapse into an inaccuracy. 17:42:44 Peculiar reasoner^[1]^[4]: A reasoner is peculiar if there is some proposition p such that they believe p and also believe they don't believe p. Although a peculiar reasoner may seem like a strange psychological phenomenon, a peculiar reasoner is necessarily inaccurate but not necessarily inconsistent. 17:42:48 wtf finnish dude mentioned on page 17:43:21 ski__: try coming up with a good type for it, then using lambdabot's @djinn? 17:43:39 (also obviously .. see also stanford's encyclopedia of logic) 17:44:03 hmm 17:44:09 []([]P->P)->[]P 17:44:11 Unstable reasoner^[1]^[4]: A reasoner is unstable if there is some proposition p they believe that they believe p, but don't really believe p. This is just as strange a psychological phenomenon as peculiarity, however, an unstable reasoner is not necessarily inconsistent. 17:44:25 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 17:44:31 I'll consider [] a box because it looks like one 17:44:41 yes, that's loeb's rendering in Provability logic 17:44:46 (a -> ((a -> p) -> p)) -> a -> p 17:44:51 yeah that's my specialized loeb 17:45:02 * ski__ has been reading "The Logic of Provability", by George Boolos, recently 17:45:23 they believe p but don't really believe p? 17:45:32 what's "really"? 17:45:41 i want to interpret `[] a' as code representing an expression of type `a' (that you can pattern-match on) 17:45:59 ski__: well, that's a think 17:46:02 *thunk 17:46:06 [] a would be () -> a 17:46:07 oklofok : no "they believe that they believe p, but don't really believe p" ! 17:46:21 ski__: omit really 17:46:25 ([] [] p) /\ (not [] p) 17:46:30 believe (believe p) & (not (believe p)) 17:46:51 no, code is not thunks 17:47:03 ski__: oh, "...some proposition p so that they..." 17:47:09 i misparsed it 17:47:12 `eval' in lisps doesn't operate on thunks 17:47:41 that's kind of detail-y 17:47:52 ski__: TH? 17:47:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Connection reset by peer). 17:47:58 if i interpret `[]' as "code of", then one proof of loebs theorem i've seen really appear to be almost 17:48:08 [template haskell that is] 17:48:16 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:48:20 ((lambda (lambda) `(,lambda ',lambda)) (lambda (lambda) `(,lambda ',lambda))) 17:48:32 (which i hope you recognize ..) 17:48:38 that variable name obfuscation is a bit intellectually dishonest :P 17:48:51 ((lambda (x) `(,x ,x)) (lambda (x) `(,x ,x))) 17:49:00 yes, same thing 17:49:14 er, actually i forgot an ' 17:49:22 ((lambda (x) `(,x ,x)) '(lambda (x) `(,x ,x))) 17:50:01 (if you want, i can remove the "almost" in the above statement ..) 17:51:03 (ehird : better than TH would be MetaML or MetaOCaml) 17:51:12 ew, why 17:51:22 TH is ugly 17:51:45 and from what i know, doesn't allow cross-stage persistance or anything similar 17:52:13 (also, TH is dynamically typed) 17:52:55 dynamically typed can be fixed 17:53:01 type Box a = Q 17:53:19 but possibly not without doing violence to the existing system 17:53:31 then use (Box a) to mean "code evaluating to something of type a" 17:53:38 (which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing ..) 17:56:18 how do i express (lambda (x f) `(lambda (y g) ,(f (lambda (z) `(g x `z))))) in TH ? 17:56:27 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 17:56:28 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:56:41 ski__: not sure :-D 17:56:44 ( usuing lispy syntax for (hopefully) familiarity) 17:56:46 ask #haskell? 17:57:14 -!- ais523_ has joined. 17:57:16 note that e.g. `x' is bound outside the quasi-quote, but used inside it 18:00:32 * ski__ thinks he would better sink into misty magic land atm, though .. 18:01:54 ski__: unfortunately, it looks like `eval :: Box a -> a` would be Difficult(TM) 18:02:02 since you can get back an ast, but you'd need to use the ghc api to compile & run 18:02:44 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:03:39 (.. that might not bad that bad, considering that if `[] a -> a' is provable, then the system would be inconsistent, because of loeb) 18:03:50 (s/bad/be/) 18:03:58 true 18:04:08 ski__: you 18:04:14 'd need lots of magic anyway 18:04:20 to turn whatever ghc gives you into a value 18:05:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:05:04 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 18:06:04 -!- Slereah has joined. 18:10:40 ski__: actually, [] a -> a is provable with functions and functors 18:10:47 \f -> f undefined 18:10:57 ofc, undefined being provable makes everything provable... 18:11:41 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 18:12:58 [18:12:45] @djinn a -> ((a -> p) -> p) -> a -> p 18:12:58 [18:12:46] -- f cannot be realized. 18:13:04 dun dun 18:13:31 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:14:35 i conclude miau sucks dicks 18:14:41 shush with your bestiality 18:16:15 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:17:13 -!- kar8nga has quit. 18:21:03 wtf finnish dude mentioned on page 18:21:25 this is of course a tremendous coincidence, given that there are only 5 finns or so 18:22:31 Bye for now all 18:22:50 you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave 18:23:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:23:35 he succumbed to peer pressure 18:24:26 oerjan: my point almost to the word. 18:25:14 i'm not sure i believe that you believe that you believe that. 18:27:58 whee, using a ghc-style "Lazy value = function that calculates then replaces itself with trivial return" is only 0.00-0.02sec slower than "calculate once with normal func, then assign to variable" 18:27:59 using llvm 18:30:55 http://www.finerrecliner.com/?p=263 what the fuck. 18:36:47 oh oerjan 18:36:51 i forgot to tell you 18:37:02 I wrote an ski interp that almost works, and is lazy, and runs ```sii``sii without growing 18:37:09 how? 18:37:14 optmization? 18:37:22 "garbage collection" 18:37:22 reduce :: SKI -> SKI reduce (App (App (App S x) y) z) = App (App x z) (App y z) reduce (App x y) = gc (App (reduce x) y) reduce x = gc x gc :: SKI -> SKI gc (App (App K x) _) = x gc (App I x) = x gc (App x y) = App (gc x) (gc y) gc x = x 18:37:27 er 18:37:44 reduce :: SKI -> SKI; reduce (App (App (App S x) y) z) = App (App x z) (App y z); reduce (App x y) = gc (App (reduce x) y); reduce x = gc x; gc :: SKI -> SKI; gc (App (App K x) _) = x; gc (App I x) = x; gc (App x y) = App (gc x) (gc y); gc x = x; 18:37:47 I think you can run ```sii``sii indefinitely lazily by optmizing `ix into x 18:37:57 it optimizes ``kxy too 18:38:03 in case you use skk instead of i 18:38:20 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:38:21 ehird: I think you're independently from me discovering the Underlambda evaluation order 18:38:23 ah, I think I know why it doesn't work 18:38:25 fixx'd 18:38:29 which is "strict or lazy, whatever you like", for most operations 18:38:30 turn the s thing into 18:38:30 reduce (App (App (App S x) y) z) = gc (App (App x z) (App y z)) 18:38:31 ais523: isn't that what he does... 18:38:34 apart from things like I/O, which are always strict 18:38:54 oerjan: it pretty much runs a gc process on every step, eliminating `ix and ``kxy, while leaving ```sxyz to the "real" steps 18:40:19 ehird: you could make it more efficient by only gc'ing "one level", and do it while building App's, including during parsing. i think. 18:40:33 oerjan: define one leve 18:40:33 l 18:40:52 with my current gc, `````skkkik reduces to i in one step 18:40:54 i don't like that :< 18:41:00 it should just make one reduction at a time 18:41:03 i mean that when building App x y, then gc'ing, you can assume x and y are already gc'ed 18:41:11 no you can't 18:41:12 ehird: the same trick works with Underload, actually; if you leave : and S to evaluate in the proper order and just evaluate the others whenever you feel like 18:41:15 in 18:41:15 reduce (App x y) = gc (App (reduce x) y) 18:41:16 y isn't 18:41:24 you could do (gc y) though 18:41:33 the thing that : and ```sxyz have in common is that they're both needed to create loops 18:41:50 ehird: yes it is, assuming you do what i said and gc everything as you build it 18:42:14 s/said/meant/, possibly :D 18:42:17 oerjan: makes siisii reduce to siisii in one step 18:42:25 which breaks my "are we done" checker :D 18:42:32 and is also wrong 18:42:33 it should go 18:42:58 ```sii``sii -> ``i``sii`i``sii -> ```sii`i``sii -> ```siii``sii 18:43:03 that is, only one bit of progress at a time 18:43:46 huh 18:44:07 well, i'm just suggesting an alternate approach for the simplification thing 18:44:14 brb 18:44:50 yeah but who wants a tons more efficient algo 18:49:15 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:49:23 ais523: oerjan: relatedly, I've been thinking about hyper-optimization of lazy functional languages 18:49:39 (because I can't kick the urge to try and make a high level language finally faster than C, dammit.) 18:49:39 what's your plan? 18:49:48 ais523: very tangled. 18:50:24 i think static typing is needed, for e.g. arithmetic optimization 18:50:41 (to make inferrances like "we can represent 2+2 as a fixnum") 18:51:52 omfg. 18:51:53 http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-NextStation-Color-N1200-Computer-NEXT-SLAB-PC_W0QQitemZ110351324556QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item110351324556&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50 18:52:00 $24.99 NeXtStation 18:52:13 only to the us tho 18:52:18 better a nextcube too 18:52:27 still... sheesh 18:56:01 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:00:13 region lock-in eh? 19:02:09 -!- jix has joined. 19:03:10 no just shipping :P 19:04:18 i meant that in an extended sense 19:06:02 hi 19:06:16 hi ais523 19:06:38 hi in an extended sense, the letter M inside AnMaster's nick 19:07:32 mhm, I really need context to understand that, and atm I'm rather preoccupied in RL 19:07:39 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:08:04 ais523, so what was that about? 19:08:15 AnMaster: there is no context 19:08:22 it's just me being random 19:08:39 heh 19:08:51 so what do you mean with "in an extended sense"? 19:10:52 it means "in a sense you'll never find out because you won't read the half page just before you entered" ;D 19:12:40 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 19:14:23 oerjan, how many lines do you define a page as? 19:14:44 * AnMaster makes his irc client 3 window 3 lines high 19:15:50 44 19:16:35 er wait, 43 19:16:46 forgot the upper topic line 19:17:11 oerjan, half a page would then start at " and is also wrong" 19:17:28 also, half a page was an overstatement 19:17:31 i meant that in an extended sense 19:17:37 heh 19:17:38 was the line I was referring to, which was the line before you said hi 19:17:41 it actually starts at omfg. 19:18:12 oerjan, that is because it scrolls down when you type and also long lines wrap 19:18:25 well duh 19:20:28 in case it is still not obvious, that was not intended as an accurate measurement 19:23:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:24:31 FUNCTIONS ARE FUNCTIONAL 19:25:04 WHAT 19:25:08 LAMENT IS ON CRACK 19:25:38 REDUNDANCY IS REDUNDANT 19:25:49 ORANGES ARE ORANGE 19:26:14 PINKIES ARE PINK 19:26:29 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:26:59 COMPUTARS ARE COMPUTABLE 19:27:43 GREEN 19:28:28 COMMUNISTS ARE COMMON 19:28:41 GREEN -> APPLE -> TREE -> BINARY -> DIGIT -> PINKY -> PINK 19:29:36 Some apples are orange. But no oranges are apple. 19:29:44 [19:28:41] GREEN -> APPLE -> TREE -> BINARY -> DIGIT -> PINKY -> PINK 19:29:46 you could automate that 19:30:00 find word, grep dictionary for word, explore all possibilities with other words in same entries 19:30:06 until you find the word you want to connect to 19:30:12 I could automate you 19:30:15 no oranges need apply 19:30:26 but would you like that huh 19:30:37 yes 19:31:48 * lament replaces ehird with a small Python script 19:32:02 lament: da-da 19:32:41 lament: da. da 19:33:12 a small dadaist Python script 19:33:21 dadadada DADA! 19:34:38 lament: dada? :( 19:35:18 sniffle 19:35:21 lament: daa daa? 19:36:01 Gadji beri bimba 19:37:25 lament: ;_; 19:40:54 da, da, da da? 19:41:20 nyet 19:41:29 lament: dada dada 19:41:38 DADA 19:41:52 da... 19:42:04 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 19:42:23 da 19:43:29 nyet! nyet nyet nyet! 19:45:47 setopt pushd_silent 19:45:47 alias cd=pushd 19:45:47 alias bk=popd 19:49:02 yes 19:49:27 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 19:51:13 actually, 19:51:14 my_cd() { dirs=($(dirs)); if [[ ! -z $1 && $1 != $dirs[1] ]]; then pushd $*; fi } 19:51:14 setopt pushd_silent 19:51:14 alias cd=my_cd 19:51:14 alias bk=popd 19:51:15 ~ 19:54:54 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 19:57:01 sbcl is so hilarious 19:58:17 you can't compile it without a lisp 19:58:18 :D 19:59:16 you cannot compile ghc without a haskell, either... 19:59:21 GCC is so hilarious 19:59:26 in fact, without ghc 19:59:27 you can't compile it without a GCC 19:59:35 ... wait, that's not hilarious. 19:59:39 yes, but it's funnier with sbcl 19:59:41 because lol 19:59:49 * Despite all appearances, I am _not_ high. 20:00:27 could be a sugar kick 20:01:26 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:03:19 * ehird compiles sbcl with sbcl XD XD XD. 20:03:25 whee look at it go isn't it cute 20:03:29 yesss it is 20:08:13 probably with some added caffeine 20:08:49 i'll hold my opinion on the ginseng 20:10:57 blood sugar --> 20:12:16 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:12:17 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:13:24 -!- Slereah has joined. 20:19:09 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:31:34 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:33:35 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:38:28 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird|away. 20:47:55 -!- ehird|away has changed nick to ehird. 20:51:00 hello all! :D 20:56:17 Hi psygnisfive 20:56:26 hey 21:06:02 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 21:11:50 http://mirrors.dotsrc.org/congress/25C3/video_h264_720x576/ <- some interesting talks, and some information about each -> http://events.ccc.de/congress/2008/Fahrplan/events.en.html 21:23:01 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:28:59 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:41:45 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird|away. 21:41:51 -!- ehird|away has left (?). 21:41:53 -!- ehird|away has joined. 21:43:33 -!- ehird|away has changed nick to ehird. 21:49:42 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 22:04:49 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:08:56 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:09:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:11:31 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 22:11:45 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:11:58 -!- Corun has joined. 22:24:04 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 22:42:31 -!- olsner_ has quit ("Leaving"). 23:09:20 -!- GregorR has quit ("Leaving"). 23:09:27 -!- GregorR has joined. 23:10:05 I just set xchat to use my godawful handwriting as its font. 23:10:11 It's not even slightly readable. 23:12:00 :-D 23:12:17 GregorR: W|at y0u saj 23:12:42 oerjan: Damn you. 23:13:10 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 23:13:41 H0 OUPS1HC! 23:14:58 I have no idea what you just said. 23:15:10 http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/GregorRichards/handwriting_xchat.png 23:15:12 H, zero, oh, you, pee, ess, one, heigh, cee. 23:15:16 Is what he said. 23:15:31 "Eighch" is spelled "eighch" 23:15:32 GregorR: You have some baseline issues there. 23:15:43 No, it's spelled "heich". 23:16:46 Bah not worse than that 23:16:55 ehird: Actually, it seems to be "aitch" :P 23:17:17 No it is heich. 23:17:39 also, that is so readable GregorR 23:17:42 you're just blind 23:17:52 ehird: EXAGGERATION FOR THE SAKE OF EMPHASIS 23:18:07 EMPHASIS FOR THE SAKE OF EMPHASIS. 23:18:24 REPETITION FOR THE SAKE OF REPETITION 23:18:51 also, that was supposed to indicate "NO CURSING" 23:18:57 Pronunciation /heɪtʃ/ and hence a spelling of haitch is usually considered to be h-adding and hence nonstandard 23:18:59 Wikipedia wins. 23:19:09 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:19:17 hadding haddocks 23:19:32 I don't care, it's wrong. 23:19:36 ardly hever appen 23:19:42 OK, but so's your face. 23:20:40 ÚÚÚÚÚÚÚÚÚ 23:20:42 ……………………………………………………… 23:24:21 fnörð 23:36:01 -!- fungot has joined. 23:36:41 Forgotteded completely about the botty-bot. 23:37:06 fizzie: forgotteded 23:37:35 fungot: please give fizzie some grammar lessons okthx 23:37:35 oerjan: you're from japan? :p) with the frame fnord?) 23:38:43 hai 23:38:51 i've been wondering about fizzie's grammar, did i give him that? 23:38:56 i mean i fonder words too 23:38:57 stor hvithai, to be exact 23:39:05 it's awesome, fizzie's language. 23:39:06 and we're both finnish 23:39:08 i see a connection 23:39:16 "them" to refer to a single object is my favourite part 23:40:03 oklofok: fonder 23:40:28 oerjan: fonder. 23:41:12 i do not believe that's a verb, either it's misspelled or you accidentally something 23:41:47 well you may have accidentally the context 23:42:22 but i completely your request to correct your errors from the other day 23:42:51 :o 23:42:54 sorry, i should have that. 23:43:16 hmm 23:43:52 and i haven't any opportunities before 23:44:23 i it now, i for so stupid. 23:44:47 ARGH 23:44:57 ;) 23:45:15 * oklofok it too far :< 23:45:15 proto: language where everything is a verb 23:45:18 kind of like haskell 23:45:26 natural language that is 23:45:32 want a value? make an unary verb. 23:45:35 oh kinda like english? 23:45:44 ermmmm english isn't all verbs :D 23:45:55 but, like, if you have a concept like "1" 23:45:58 maybe not from your point of view 23:46:02 1 = \f. f 1 23:46:06 or like 23:46:17 dog walks -> walks dog 23:46:22 or I don't know 23:46:31 i doubt anyone here does ;) 23:47:32 in lojban, every root word is a verb... but i guess you mean you could apply every subsentence as if it were a verb or something? 23:48:07 lalna kinda does that... it's kinda oklotalk but a natural language; also similar to oklotalk in that it's unfinished. 23:48:20 oerjan: how can you not have found grammar to correct? 23:48:22 i mean 23:48:31 i intentionally talk very, very confuzzlatorily 23:48:46 well 23:48:50 oklofok: You may have had some sort of influence on it, yes. 23:48:50 i guess i haven't done that then 23:49:17 fizzie: did you know your nick has a palindrome in it? 23:50:04 oklofok: well you've certainly started now 23:50:25 Although I think my in-query-talk with ineiros has also been some sort of a cause for my unstandardish speech patternsies. 23:50:41 oklofok: The "izzi" part? 23:50:50 no, the 'f' 23:51:02 [23:50:25] Although I think my in-query-talk with ineiros has also been some sort of a cause for my unstandardish speech patternsies. 23:51:05 does ineiros talk oddly? 23:51:20 Yes. 23:51:23 * oerjan should oddly oftener 23:51:25 [23:47:32] in lojban, every root word is a verb... but i guess you mean you could apply every subsentence as if it were a verb or something? 23:51:32 basically, eliminate adjectives, adverbs, nouns, ... 23:51:38 just have absolutely everything be a verb. 23:51:44 including compositions of verbs, yes 23:52:22 Would it be strange to use the term 'access violation' in other contexts than segfaults? 23:52:33 erm, no? 23:52:55 ehird: We do our query in less-than-regular Engrish, even though we both are these .fi types. Although now that I review some logs it seems I'm the odder one out. Curious. 23:53:14 fizzie: like vjn? 23:53:28 I imagine their engirsh is rather less comprehensible, though. 23:53:45 muchalainen 23:55:02 01:49… oerjan: oklofok: well you've certainly started now <<< ? 23:55:16 oklofok: give fizzie some vjnglish 23:55:29 :) 23:55:36 The vjn.fi en-fin translatomator made an awesome job of my randomly picked line; too bad you can't optimally enjoy it if you don't speak Finnish: "me aiheuttaa meidän kysyä -ssa less-than-regular Engrish, yhtäläinen vaikkapa me kummatkin ovat nämä .fi tekee malliesimerkki. vaikkakin välittömästi että meikä arvostella joku tekee runko sitä näyttäät olen moinen odder yksi esiin. omituinen." 23:55:37 no i'm shy 23:55:39 oklofok: vocabulatoriatingly at least 23:55:43 quick fool! 23:55:53 oklofok: come on vjnglish is awesome. 23:56:00 or should I say, an coolness. 23:56:16 sure an coolness to be saying 23:56:18 I'm starting to like WireWorld... 23:56:35 an arvostellar performance 23:56:48 f00d -> 23:56:57 <- bed 23:57:01 * oerjan swats FireFly first -----### 23:57:02 what 23:57:03 it's -> 23:57:04 not <- 23:57:07 :< 23:57:07 THAT ISN'T POSSIBLE 23:57:10 v bed 23:57:10 BED IS NOT GOING TO YOU 23:57:12 <- in bed 23:57:13 ^ bed 23:57:23 * oklofok is always in his bed :| 23:57:36 Bed walks to oklofok 23:57:48 That last one just looks lik "/me exclusive-or bed". 23:57:56 Which reminds me, I need sleep too; night. 23:58:08 Yeah, me too 23:58:10 -!- FireFly has quit ("zzzzzzzzz"). 23:58:24 good night to the effers. 23:58:39 or wait are they zeers 23:59:10 also both have palindromes in their nicks, you have a lot in common. 2009-02-17: 00:03:03 um there are two? 00:03:34 two whats? 00:03:48 zeers with palindromes 00:03:59 * oerjan zees only ze fizzie 00:04:25 i'm talking about {fizzie, FireFly} 00:04:30 FireFly is also a zeer 00:04:48 but a bit short on palindromes 00:05:02 and z's for that matter 00:05:03 z = sleep I assume 00:05:40 oerjan: nick palindromes are a temporary meme, please keep up. 00:06:08 yes, and you agree length 1 is short, right? 00:06:19 in fact i do 00:06:45 but sometimes i'm too stupid to realize other's aren't stupid, and explain myself. 00:06:52 *others 00:06:56 that was close :| 00:07:04 DARN 00:09:34 also the "oerjan: and z's for that matter" did kinda hint you didn't understand me. 00:10:40 well i didn't understand that part 00:14:01 how many notes does it take to have a melody? 00:14:36 3 00:14:51 I've seen 2-note melodies. 00:15:33 oerjan, ehird: Fight to the death. 00:15:45 k 00:16:06 no way 00:16:16 ehird always wins those fights 00:16:34 the empty melody has no notes 00:16:50 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:16:57 it's used as the base case for many inductive music proofs. 00:17:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4%E2%80%B233%E2%80%B3 00:18:08 oh that thing 00:18:46 the point of that was not to play the empty melody, he had some ridiculous idea about using the audience as a modern music instrument 00:18:54 afaik, guess i could just read it 00:20:39 yeah that's the idea 00:20:53 stupid non-mathematical stupidity 00:20:55 sleep -> 00:21:16 i postulate that 4'33" only qualifies as music if you're fucked up in the head. 00:23:37 i hear - notes - 00:24:37 I like 4'33". 00:33:36 it's better than most rap 00:34:13 it's better than most music, as there's infinite music. 00:34:23 prove. 00:35:00 lament: one note played once. one note played twice. 00:35:02 repeat forever. 00:35:11 there you go. a tiny segment of the infinite music that exists. 00:35:13 that's not music, that's a bunch of notes. 00:35:21 s/one note/one melody/. 00:35:58 1) is the same melody played 2398475987897 times really "music"? 00:36:14 2) is this music really different from the same melody repeated 2398475987898 times? 00:36:31 lament: if we accept 4'33" as music (implicit in the 'better than most music' I said), then it's still music if repeated for any amount 00:37:52 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:46:31 ehird: you are so brainwashed. 00:46:34 ehird: you're part of the haskell cult. 00:48:15 ehird: also your argument strategy is peculiar to say the least 00:48:31 which argument 00:48:38 instead of responding, you just copy what i said to a bunch of unrelated people? 00:49:08 not only it's impolite, but it only proves my point 00:49:21 can you think for yourself and not bring the haskell cult into this? 00:50:22 xahlee, to be sure, raises some valid points in that essay 00:50:29 although he mostly talks about scheme and only mentions haskell in passing 00:50:59 1] IRC is public, I copied it because it was amusing 2] i see 3] I wasn't intending to discuss it 4] wrong 5] k 00:51:35 i have no idea what those numbers correspond to. 00:51:42 lines. 00:51:47 which lines? 00:51:52 yours 00:51:57 from [00:48:38] instead of responding, you just copy what i said to a bunch of unrelated people? 00:52:25 ok. 00:53:49 keep in mind that, assuming you're brainwashed, it's very hard for you to detect that - that's the nature of brainwashing 00:54:31 you're an excellent troll, lament. fyi I don't like haskell all that much. 00:54:48 i had years of practice. 00:58:09 also i kinda like xah lee's style 00:58:16 (the calling everyone a fuckhead part) 01:00:04 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 01:10:24 -!- metaphysician has quit ("Oh Noes!"). 01:18:05 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:31:08 -!- metaphysician has joined. 01:43:22 -!- Dewi has joined. 02:31:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:40:31 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 03:45:59 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 03:59:43 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:36:33 hird 04:36:34 .. 04:36:36 ehird 04:36:49 ohord 04:52:44 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:20:36 G'night all 05:21:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:54:36 -!- DarkPants has joined. 05:55:05 -!- DarkPants has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:06:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Connection timed out). 07:53:48 -!- oklopol has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:22:53 lament: you're a fuckhead 08:45:36 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 08:45:52 -!- oklopol has joined. 08:46:38 oklopol! :D 08:49:08 :D 08:50:07 ok-lopol: Hey, you have the nickname-palindromitis also. Why is it that you just point it out in others? 08:50:39 fizzie: i have pointed it out in myselves too 08:51:10 Oh. I must have missed it. 08:55:50 it was my great palindrome bit. but don't worry, i'm going to keep doing it until everyone thinks "palindrome" means "letter". 08:56:11 and burrows-wheeler is one confusing little pecker. 09:00:27 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:12:57 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:17:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:59:59 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 10:15:04 -!- Dewi has quit (Network is unreachable). 10:29:26 -!- Corun has joined. 10:37:58 -!- Mony has joined. 10:41:34 hey, i'm back :D 10:44:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:46:27 wb Mony 10:46:33 :) 10:59:23 -!- oklopol has joined. 11:12:01 i love noodles :) 11:12:11 oklopol: I already knew 11:12:58 you did? 11:12:59 cool. 11:13:13 so ais523 i didn't hear your summer plans 11:13:22 I didn't realise I had any 11:13:39 does your university stuff end during summer 11:13:46 yes, it does 11:13:47 plans? who needs plans? 11:13:47 or is it 365/80 for you? 11:13:53 but I find it hard to plan so far ahead 11:14:17 80? 11:14:35 yes, i couldn't tell ppl my plans, but i can easily ask other people's plans :) 11:14:46 365 weeks a month, 80 days a week 11:14:47 oerjan: yes i predicted when he dies. 11:15:11 ah. 11:15:32 the answer is I'm almost always working on something, but during the holidays it normally isn't university-related 11:15:59 oklopol: if he works like that no way he'll live until 80 11:16:47 oerjan: better to overestimate. 11:28:14 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 11:38:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:43:44 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:48:29 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 11:54:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:56:09 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:03:51 -!- jix has joined. 12:49:26 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 12:53:54 -!- jix has joined. 14:01:07 hi ais523 14:01:47 -!- ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating..."). 14:01:58 -!- ehird has joined. 14:02:32 hi ais523 14:06:38 doo doo 14:06:45 who indeed lives 14:07:38 hi 14:19:06 argh, Simulink is calculating the absolute value of a number as being negative 14:19:11 there is no way that works, at all 14:19:30 I think it must be using some sort of fuzzy maths 14:40:58 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:01:38 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 15:07:11 what was the number 15:08:03 oh, he's gone. 15:10:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:11:06 wb ais523 15:11:10 wb me 15:19:53 but why would a number say such a thing? 15:20:22 http://waferbaby.com/setup/2009/02/13/_why <- why the lucky stiff is on LSD again. 15:22:41 sounds a bit like me 15:22:46 (only draws better) 15:23:35 i loved the ljofol reference 15:26:52 i loved the ghost thing 15:27:41 i loved all of it. 15:28:07 i love you 15:28:18 me too. let's get married. 15:28:33 we probably should 15:28:50 in california. 15:38:19 -!- Slereah has joined. 15:48:59 ho hum 15:49:25 hum ho? 15:50:02 hum ho hum 15:50:05 a hum ho. 15:50:25 ehird's hummin a ho 15:50:49 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:53:01 yes. 15:53:35 what's the square root of seven in unary? 15:53:42 can you show me a picture 15:55:27 455454 15:55:27 and do you brits like cold tea? i think it tastes rather interesting. 15:55:36 we like tea in general 15:55:41 well duh 15:55:46 but 15:55:48 i mean relatively 15:55:51 to other teas 15:56:30 dunno 15:56:32 we like it probably 15:56:36 maybe not as much 15:57:04 well how about you know when it's solid 15:57:12 do you eat tee leaves? 16:00:03 not really 16:00:10 by which I mean no 16:00:21 by which you mean..? 16:00:55 no 16:01:31 hmm. i'm not sure i'm going to accomplish anything saying random things on random ...medias. 16:01:45 should probably stop using double plurals and start reading or something. 16:02:10 and oh my god RuralHack is crazy, #philosophy is awesome 16:02:41 RuralHack? 16:03:11 oklopol: ic, some mystic crazy fuck? 16:03:45 well. look. 16:03:51 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 16:04:13 [16:03:51] the bot doesn't have the appropriate functional relationships for consciousness 16:04:13 NaN is actually talking about another crazy fuck, who you probably know, called DanFredriksen 16:04:19 oklopol: I think they're _all_ crazy fucks 16:05:06 erm 16:05:11 "to lie to others you have to lie to yourself?" 16:05:12 what 16:05:45 everyone pretty much tunes him out. 16:05:50 mentally or /ignorily. 16:06:23 oklopol: they're all batshit. 16:06:42 well, the whole concept of philosophy is pretty much distinguishing the identical 16:06:46 so ofc they're batshit 16:07:17 oklopol: NaN is in ##christian 16:07:21 of course the bot has to differ 16:07:24 yes, he's religious 16:07:28 anything else would be admitting the nonexistance of the soul 16:07:44 admits it's an irrational belief though. 16:08:23 man, ruralhack is retarded 16:09:10 oklopol: whuz the fancy name for the philosophy "things are just how they physically are goddammit stop being stupid" 16:09:11 yes! he's fun to watch when you're really. 16:09:12 *tired 16:09:20 not just when you're tired, when you're really, too 16:09:33 yeah, really and tired 16:09:48 discount me with your ManWordzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz 16:10:09 oklopol: does he just type, forever? 16:10:32 yes 16:10:53 oklopol: how do you make him stop 16:11:10 -!- ais523__ has joined. 16:11:12 well i'm starting to think he may be a bot, at least a sentence generator, there must be an operator there too though. 16:11:18 you can't stop him. 16:11:19 hi ais523__ 16:11:23 -!- ais523__ has changed nick to ais523_. 16:11:28 we're watching a mad person in ##philosophy. called ruralhack. 16:11:28 he leaves when he wants to. 16:11:32 he's mad. 16:11:45 wow, that was a surprising moment to get a kernel panic 16:11:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:11:59 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 16:12:17 I have no idea why that happened... 16:12:31 kernel panic. what's kernel panic? 16:12:46 oklopol: the OS getting so insane all of a sudden it doesn't even know what's gone wrong 16:12:51 the whole computer freezes up 16:13:03 and on my laptop, it flashes capslock and scrolllock to show that something's gone wrong 16:13:04 i think he knows 16:13:05 [16:12:23] It makes me cry you hate yourself so much that you act as if you are not life 16:14:25 ais523: i see. what oses do that? 16:14:38 all the major ones do, or can do 16:14:42 this was on Linux 16:14:50 and it didn't even leave any info in the logs to show what had gone wrong 16:15:06 kernel panics are bugs. 16:16:26 -!- ais523_ has joined. 16:16:37 18:15… RuralHack: Thank you for letting me rant <<< he stopped. 16:17:41 wait 16:17:43 he didn't. 16:20:09 [16:20:03] go ahead ehird... sorry for interrupting 16:20:11 I stopped him 16:20:13 hell yeah 16:20:54 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:20:56 :) 16:25:42 -!- ais523_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:32:19 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:32:41 omg mathematica is crap 16:32:48 it is using all my memory just to load a wav 16:33:11 lül 16:33:30 ais523: gawd why does it suck so much 16:33:34 ehird: I've told you about its inefficiency several times 16:33:42 I know 16:33:46 but it's just loading a freaking wav 16:34:14 it is 86MB 16:34:16 but STILL 16:34:50 Mathematica manages to be a computational order slower than other things for no good reason at all, somehow 16:35:51 it has to load this wav EVENTUALLY... 16:38:13 ehird: if I were to guess, it's doing the equivalent of not using a StringBuilder 16:38:40 oklopol: gawd, now there's a guy who doesn't see why I'd get up in the morning if I think life has no purpose 16:38:41 how cliche 16:38:48 heh 16:41:06 ehird: cdials: no, I do it by my own free will because I want to. conciousness has no justification apart from itself, so the continuation of itself is the only logical course. <<< listen to all these wackjobs with their big philosphical words! 16:41:31 oklopol: i was attempting to communicate with the lower life form of "philosophical fuck". 16:41:34 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:41:38 :) 16:41:40 [16:41:02] I believe the chief end of man is to glorify God by enjoying him forever. 16:41:45 thanks for that, we couldn't have guessed. 16:41:51 why would a christian think that. 16:44:24 my brain is rotting. 16:45:11 :) 16:47:24 That makes God sound like some sort of a drink. 16:47:33 "Enjoy god every morning!" 16:48:16 oklopol: do you ever feel like you're just repeating yourself all the time when talking to them 16:48:47 [16:48:42] drdrdrd 16:48:49 best insight in hours 16:52:47 oklopol: i tried to fit the word conciousness as many times as I could in that sentence 16:56:21 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:02:48 [17:02:32] i'm pretty sure this argument in history has only been had seventy billion times. 17:02:48 [17:02:41] clearly having it one more time will get somewhere 17:02:51 Time until kick: 3 seconds 17:03:21 kick on #philosophy? 8| 17:03:30 i have my doubts. 17:03:32 :D 17:03:42 i have a two hour argument this morning there 17:04:09 this dude was trying to convince me statistics are crucial for learning a language. 17:04:14 XD 17:04:43 (wait a sec) 17:07:18 well, that's fine, except i was talking about how in my opinion it would make more sense to create bots that learn simple artificial grammars, and bots that use a simple-to-parse language and try to do something sensible with the semantics, instead of just starting to feed a generic AI statistics about english and trying to get it to speak it. 17:07:26 (i was interrupted, sorry.) 17:08:18 and told him about a hundred times i was not interested in having an argument about how children learn language, and that i agreed with him about the statistics argument anyway. 17:08:29 :D 17:09:23 and the dude just kept on telling me how his child understood pronouns, and that convobots shouldn't be designed intelligently, but they should be made to understand any language, based on what they're given as input. 17:09:36 oklopol: here's an artificial grammar for you: 17:09:38 and i told him i agreed with that as well. 17:10:01 when you add the fact i cannot stop arguments, because, you know, i'm retarded, it was one painful discussion. 17:10:28 missed the whole lecture, fortunately i learned after the lecture i had still understood more than others, it seems. 17:10:49 oklopol: expr = verb | verb ' ' verb. verb = [adegklnopstuyz]+ 17:10:55 er 17:10:57 "so, did anyone get at least some sense out of this?" *silence, i wave my hand in midair* 17:11:46 oklopol: expr = verb | expr ' ' verb | expr '. ' expr | '"' expr '"' | expr expr. verb = [adegklnopstuyz]+ 17:12:03 postfix, ofc. 17:12:31 agelo "polget" na 17:12:32 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 17:12:35 i haveno idea what that says 17:12:37 but it looks nic 17:13:13 "polget" is a quotation, ofc. 17:13:22 [ofc it has first-class functions] 17:13:43 ofc 17:13:48 quotations are verbs consisting of the composition of everything in the quotes. 17:13:54 but they also reference the verbs inside. 17:14:09 agelo was a name, so as a singleton it's (\x. x agelo) 17:14:15 err, or rather 17:14:17 it pushes itself 17:14:26 na is 'says', I guess. 17:14:28 it should be 17:14:30 "polget" agelo na 17:14:33 so you can compose "agelo na" 17:14:37 to mean 'Agelo says...' 17:15:07 oklopol: elegant? 17:15:33 so 17:15:34 err 17:15:40 (wait.) 17:15:53 first of all 17:15:59 i thought you said elephant 17:16:04 sentences (a. b) just run a, clear the stack, then run b. 17:16:06 but umm elegant, let's see 17:16:07 haha 17:16:26 oklopol: quotations should nest, actually 17:16:33 make it alternating " and ' 17:16:36 determined by whitespace 17:17:15 "'"polget" "agelo na"' agelo na" agelo na 17:17:16 -> 17:17:26 ((polget) (agelo na) agelo na) agelo na 17:17:33 i want to make my cool convobot. 17:17:40 which means 17:17:53 Agelo says, "Agelo says, "'Polget' and 'Agelo says'."" 17:18:18 sure 17:18:30 oklopol: put my grammar into it. and make it invent words for how people behave. 17:18:38 hah. 17:18:52 like, it'd just recognize patterns in what people say, and learn them as words 17:19:02 and if people said patterns along others, it'd associate them 17:19:07 i don't think i'd constrain its capability to invent words. 17:19:15 wut 17:19:17 that wasn't constraining 17:19:24 i mean 17:19:27 "yes" 17:19:29 ;) 17:19:32 :D 17:21:11 (need to bbl now ->) 17:25:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:32:27 -!- ais523_ has joined. 17:33:31 oh my god this word generating algorithm is amazing. 17:33:49 goauoeaoko 17:34:03 is that even pronouncable? 17:34:08 it ends with oko, anyway, so it's forgiven 17:34:09 yes 17:34:24 wait. I have u down as a consonant. 17:34:45 oooaep 17:34:50 ok, triple vowels is a bit excsesive. 17:35:44 ais523_: "gaotolootaaney" 17:35:49 best word ever. 17:36:21 actually, double is ugly no matter what. 17:36:29 it should just be cvcvcvcv or vcvcvcvc 17:36:33 double o works, double a doesn't 17:36:57 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:37:30 ais523_: i'd prefer oo to be a separate letter 17:37:32 that is, u. 17:38:19 ais523_: "sakogakasepude" 17:38:22 best word ever? 17:39:00 no 17:39:54 >>> random_word() 17:39:54 'lapol' 17:39:59 this is clearly oklopol's native tounge 17:40:33 'nakutapupu' <- pronounced 'nahcootahpoopoo'. 17:42:10 eyoyanaka <- e, o and a are short there 17:42:17 (all vowels are short apart from u) 17:42:20 (where u = oo) 17:47:21 the alphabett: danepokupytz 17:58:45 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:00:49 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 18:00:54 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 18:20:15 i always used to think there was a C+ 18:20:20 there's C and C++, so there must be a C+! 18:20:22 (Note: i was like 6) 18:23:01 hah 18:53:50 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out). 18:54:03 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:20:34 -!- sebbu2 has quit (No route to host). 19:27:46 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 19:32:18 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:34:52 oklopol: 19:34:53 [19:29:12] hello, what if time runs backwards and we feel it runs forwards ? 19:34:59 hilarious 19:36:09 :D 19:51:58 [19:51:32] Excuse me, all this arrogance has given me diahrea, im going to go take a hot steamy shit, brb 20:01:45 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:06:37 oklopol: have you written tga files? 20:06:41 got a weird bug 20:07:10 nope 20:07:13 ;< 20:07:52 not sure i've even really used them. 20:07:56 well okay i have 20:07:58 but you know. 20:08:03 wait, Asztal has 20:08:09 what hasn't he 20:08:10 he ripped off my haskell lib and gave it tga :P 20:08:14 ping to Asztal 20:08:33 I thought I'd read some tga files, but upon closer inspection it turns out those were tiff files instead. 20:08:37 Asztal: drag your asz in here and tal us about tga 20:15:03 hello 20:15:32 oklopol: ehird's decided to do something with tga 20:15:40 because he things libpng is too complicated 20:15:46 *Asztal: 20:15:48 no, I don't 20:15:49 and now he needs your help, it seems 20:15:53 I think that using a library is no fun. 20:17:52 indeed it isn't 20:18:04 my code for it was pretty short (I didn't bother with endianness) : http://paste.pocoo.org/show/104330/ 20:18:49 Asztal: ic, I didn't use pallettes 20:18:55 hmm, I suppose I do kind of bother with endianness 20:19:17 but ... that's pretty much my cod 20:19:18 e 20:19:23 so wtf doesn'tit work o_O 20:19:39 I didn't do palettes either (not sure what that 32 is there for) 20:20:15 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:20:33 Asztal: wait wait, some of those are _words_? 20:20:34 oshi 20:21:01 aha :) 20:21:05 ehird: how did you not notice that? 20:21:10 from the spec you linked me? 20:21:17 reading TGA? 20:21:19 how fun 20:21:23 magic. 20:21:24 AnMaster: writing. 20:21:28 ah 20:21:31 Asztal: fputs("\0\0\2\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0", file); 20:21:31 _write_little_endian(file, img->w); 20:21:32 _write_little_endian(file, img->h); 20:21:32 fputs("\24\0", file); 20:21:33 is my header 20:21:34 ehird, png is a lot more interesting 20:21:37 as in complex 20:21:38 writing's easier as you don't have to worry about compression 20:21:42 also why do you need to write tga? 20:21:45 and I'm at a loss to why that doesn't work 20:21:52 AnMaster: because he doesn't want to write png, yet wants graphics output 20:21:54 AnMaster: I don't care what you think is interesting, and because I want to 20:22:06 mhm 20:22:07 I suggested RAW but he couldn't read it 20:22:11 what is it that you are outputting? 20:22:19 images 20:22:21 ais523, ah, what about .rgb? 20:22:53 AnMaster: never heard of it 20:22:53 also a fun format is .xpm :D 20:23:01 although it's possibly a different name for .raw 20:23:08 the header is the right length, I checked 20:23:17 so my values are screwed up somehow, or the data 20:23:20 ais523, actually there are two, semi-incompatible variants of .rgb, flightgear used to use the more uncommon one 20:23:34 more uncommon = less common 20:23:34 which was a pain to save in gimp, you had to manually select type every time 20:23:51 Uh, that \24 there is octal, isn't it? 20:23:59 While you probably want 24-as-decimal. 20:24:00 ehird, more common -> less uncommon? 20:24:10 AnMaster: yes 20:24:18 ais523, ok that is silly 20:24:22 why not just use "more" 20:24:38 fizzie: ups/ 20:24:41 I mean, they're both correct 20:24:45 rather than one's better than the other 20:24:50 I thought that's what you meant by the -> 20:25:01 "more uncommon" --AnMaster 20:25:08 "say 'less common'" --me 20:25:13 ais523, ehird seemed to suggest I should use "less common" rather than "more uncommon" 20:25:22 err, yes 20:25:23 so I wondered if that was symetrical 20:25:28 because more uncommon is a double negative. 20:25:35 ehird: since when was "more" a negative 20:25:36 should "more common" be replaced with "less uncommon" 20:25:49 ais523: err, well, you know what i mean 20:25:52 ehird: no I don't 20:25:54 ais523, since ehird said it 20:25:55 more uncommon sounds awkward. 20:26:04 try "rarer", you can collapse it into one word 20:26:04 less common is ... less uncommon. 20:26:05 ehird, then you should use less uncommon too 20:26:14 no 20:26:17 you shouldn't 20:26:17 in instead of more common 20:26:17 ehird doesn't do deMorgan's laws 20:26:40 oerjan, indeed 20:26:58 I'm surprised he don't know about that 20:27:18 err, I'm talking about language. 20:27:21 and what sounds awkward. 20:27:36 "awkward" sounds awkward. 20:27:43 ehird: the problem is that nobody here agrees with you, not even the other native English speakers 20:27:58 and looks even worse 20:28:08 ais523: you think "more uncommon" is better than "less common 20:28:09 Awkward sounds "to the direction of awk". 20:28:09 "?!! 20:28:26 fizzie: yes, it's the opposite of sedwards 20:29:21 I'd say "more uncommondededer." 20:29:57 i asked someone who isn't on crack and they can confirm that you're all on crack. 20:30:14 but is "more uncommon" less uncommon than "less common"? 20:30:17 wait, wait 20:30:19 Being not on crack, how would they know? 20:30:21 "It might be LSD or heroin." 20:30:27 ok, so there is SOME AMBIGUITY here 20:30:32 but I don't think no drugs is a possibility 20:30:53 only heroes do heroin. such as the taliban. 20:31:06 Would think the taliban use talidomide. 20:31:17 I'd say "more uncommondededer." <-- :D 20:31:24 Oh, wait, it's with an 'h' in english. 20:31:28 * oerjan should note he is on neither, he just hasn't eaten yet 20:31:36 fizzie: wouldn't you say "more of them uncommons" 20:31:48 I just might, if you keep that up. 20:31:55 * AnMaster has eaten and is on no drug 20:32:17 ehird, also I agree with ais523 on this question 20:32:40 I could gather that, by the fact that you've both been arguing about it with me and saying the same stupid things. 20:32:52 ehird, but you seem to think that "more uncommon" is more unenglish? 20:32:54 ehird: nobody but you thinks they're stupid 20:33:05 ais523: yes, well that's their problem. 20:33:20 AnMaster: you don't count, i saw you make a grammatical error just a while ago 20:33:22 besides, "not uncommon" is more of a double negative than "more uncommon", and yet it's quite common 20:33:34 oerjan, you mean "more unenglish"? that was just a joke. 20:33:38 or what do you mean? 20:33:44 no, I'm surprised he don't know about that 20:33:51 oerjan, typo 20:33:59 that's what they all say 20:33:59 missed es 20:34:07 doesn't -es = don't 20:34:28 oerjan, Actually you made an error too. You forgot to use a capital at the start of the sentence. 20:34:29 :P 20:34:39 is this the tragedy of the uncommons, i wonder 20:34:48 oerjan: I doubt it 20:35:10 oerjan, Is that like uncyclopedia? 20:35:30 I mean... wikipedia -> uncyclopedia, wikimedia commons -> uncommons 20:35:39 yeah right probably that 20:36:28 use the destructive uncommons licence for things you want _no one_ to have 20:36:37 creative/destructive? 20:36:41 that is not very ... opposite. 20:36:54 it isn't? 20:36:54 ehird: I think it is 20:36:57 ehird, no that would be less uninlogical 20:37:18 so... in ehirdland, "creative" is not the opposite of "destructive", and more is a negative 20:37:20 what next? 20:37:26 s/more/"more"/ 20:37:38 ais523, maybe he will say that uninlogical doesn't exist next? 20:37:39 :D 20:37:46 the opposite of creative would be uncreative. SHOCK HORROR. 20:38:04 ehird: that's a negative, not an opposite 20:38:08 what's the opposite of "less than"? 20:38:18 somehow I think you're going to say "greater than or equal to", based on that reasoning 20:38:22 AnMaster: also, i don't do capital punishment sentences 20:38:37 oerjan, uh... 20:38:39 what? 20:38:50 AnMaster: it was a pun 20:38:53 oh 20:39:00 "capital punishment" = "killing people to punish them for a crime" 20:39:04 well yes 20:39:06 I know that 20:39:07 if you don't know that definition, the pun makes no sense 20:39:08 Those are opposites of different senses of creative; here's irrefutable proof from wordnet: 20:39:11 Antonyms of adj creative 20:39:14 2 senses of creative 20:39:16 Sense 1 20:39:19 creative (vs. uncreative), originative 20:39:19 ais523, I *know* that. And I don' get it 20:39:21 Sense 2 20:39:22 don't* 20:39:24 creative 20:39:26 INDIRECT (VIA constructive) -> destructive 20:39:33 see, indirect 20:39:39 its not an opposite 20:39:40 AnMaster: it's a reference to the capital letter complaint earlier that you made against oerjan 20:39:44 it's the opposite of a related word. 20:39:46 The two senses being: 1. (13) creative, originative -- (having the ability or power to create; "a creative imagination"); 2. (3) creative -- (promoting construction or creation; "creative work"). 20:39:52 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 20:39:54 It's the opposite of creative in the second sense. 20:40:01 ais523, oh I thought it was something far fetched based on *pun*ishment 20:40:02 ... 20:40:26 AnMaster: you were punning the wrong word? 20:40:31 AUGH! 20:40:46 * AnMaster waits for a joke about type punning next... 20:40:54 AnMaster: well it was that too, obviously 20:41:03 sigh 20:41:04 (Even the Principia Discordia uses the creative/destructive pair of opposites.) 20:41:08 AnMaster: but my last comment wasn't even a pun, it was just designed to look like one 20:41:34 lol @ punishment :D 20:42:00 since i'm only halvway through my meal, don't expect my puns to make complete logical sense 20:42:04 *f 20:42:42 hm what is type punning 20:42:45 fizzie, ah yes indeed 20:43:04 oerjan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_punning 20:43:09 meal male lame ...leam 20:43:28 it is stuff like: *((float*)&myint) 20:43:29 :D 20:43:36 actually don't do that one 20:43:43 there are less error prone ways to do it 20:44:04 like unions, in practise every compiler supports "not accessing with same member" because everyone is doing that 20:44:29 your mom is pretty error prone 20:44:39 that was very oko 20:44:40 ... 20:44:52 what the heck does that have to do with the word "pun" 20:45:03 oerjan, nothing 20:45:15 oerjan, ask oklopol I guess 20:45:30 yeah askme 20:45:32 *ask me 20:45:32 what are joke? 20:45:42 oklopol: what the heck does that have to do with the word "pun" 20:45:44 ais523, ? 20:45:54 AnMaster: it's a reference to something ehird said ages ago 20:45:59 ais523, that sounds like more unbad grammar to me. 20:46:05 that is more like ehird defines it 20:46:15 unbaddishment galore 20:46:25 doubleplusungood grammar? 20:46:40 ais523, 1984 reference right? 20:46:42 yes 20:46:45 anyway, I'm going home 20:46:46 I haven't read the book but... 20:46:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:46:49 ais523, cya! 20:47:20 oerjan: well you know, using another meaning of a variable in a sentence. 20:47:31 hm... 20:47:36 eh 20:48:42 err 20:48:47 wikipedia just broke for me 20:48:48 no CSS 20:48:57 on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stride_of_an_array 20:49:14 hm now it works 20:53:43 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:57:53 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird|away. 20:59:53 [19:29:12] hello, what if time runs backwards and we feel it runs forwards ? 21:00:01 * oerjan has considered that before 21:00:07 or was it later? 21:04:05 I didn't see that one going! 21:04:28 I will 21:07:40 One can argue that in a global sense time doesn't "run" one way or another, but that we perceive time as running one way due to causality. So, if time was running the other way because of causality, we would perceive it that way because of causality; whereas if it "ran" opposite of causality by some definition, that's irrelevant because causality is how we describe the direction of time. 21:07:52 -!- ehird|away has changed nick to ehird. 21:08:20 That is to say, there is no reasonable definition of time for which that can be true. 21:12:06 i think it assumes there is some "real" time which our consciousness moves along, and asks whether this could correspond with backwards travel in the sense of physical causality 21:13:33 i.e. it assumes a soul/matter dichotomy or similar 21:13:36 * oklopol suggests reading the bible 21:13:50 * oklopol joined ##christian and #jesus today 21:14:13 * oklopol is trying new things... ircwise 21:14:14 another possibility to make sense of it: imagine if our universe is a simulation inside another, which is running backwards relative to the outer one 21:14:50 * AnMaster invites oklopol to ##flyingspaghettimonster 21:15:07 oklopol, also wth "##christian" but "#jesus" 21:15:14 the latter one should be ##jesus 21:15:21 according to freenode channel naming guidelines 21:15:32 -!- fungot has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:15:32 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:15:35 yes, and this should be ##esoteric 21:15:38 so? 21:15:44 oklopol, that is true 21:15:48 we should do a group request 21:15:58 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----### 21:16:10 then we could have cloaks like * [oklopol] (n=nnscript@esoteric/oklopol): Ville Salo 21:16:12 ;D 21:16:26 :| 21:16:31 stop that you fuckers 21:16:31 oklopol, what? 21:16:35 * oklopol changes ident 21:16:37 stop what? 21:16:43 YOU REVEALED HIS NAME! YOU ASSHOLE! 21:16:43 nnscript as ident? 21:16:45 oh I SEE 21:16:48 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 21:16:50 yes a mirc looser 21:16:55 that is what the ident said 21:16:56 also 21:17:02 real name != ident 21:17:11 -!- oklopol has joined. 21:17:18 oklopol, fail, ident is same 21:17:21 still nnscript for ident 21:17:27 heh 21:17:35 i meant real name. 21:17:44 * [nick] (ident@host): GECOS/Real name 21:17:44 AnMaster: yes, i meant real name. 21:17:50 oklopol, then say that 21:17:56 oklopol, also clog has it now 21:17:57 I bet 21:18:00 i said you little pecker 21:18:09 it's been revealed before, right? 21:18:15 * [AnMaster] (n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster): AnMaster <-- much better :D 21:18:18 or maybe not on channel 21:18:34 I think you are correct Ørjan Johansen 21:18:35 ! 21:18:43 i don't care about people mentioning it. 21:18:44 i am not trying to hide my real name 21:18:46 * [oerjan] (n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no): Ørjan Johansen 21:18:46 i care about them seeing it 21:18:48 oerjan, indeed 21:19:12 would i choose a nick based on it if so... 21:19:19 oerjan, nor am I, I just care that any causal observers won't find out with a random whois, my name is easy enough to find anyway... 21:19:22 *shrug* 21:19:57 THIS LINE IS FOR EASIER GOOGLING. OKLOPOL'S REAL NAME REVEALED IN CLOG! Tags: oklopol, real, name, clog, esoteric 21:20:17 lament, :D 21:20:18 lament: shouldn't you have the name in that line too? 21:20:24 or 21:20:26 oh good point 21:20:34 The name is in today's log, if anyone's interested. 21:20:41 true 21:20:42 Just scroll up a couple pages. 21:20:49 trues. 21:21:06 lament: i don't think clog is on google properly, i've had trouble searching, only a few pages show up 21:21:14 but i could just disconnect the internet if i wanted people not to see it. 21:21:19 it's not like i'm not in control. 21:21:26 oerjan: :( 21:21:31 oklopol: your secret is safe 21:21:44 your secret is safe with the world 21:21:44 :D 21:22:07 my name is not a secret, i just don't like you using it. 21:22:15 Don't mention oklopol's name in vain. 21:22:20 something like that. 21:22:22 hah 21:22:50 loli slave 21:22:59 my parents are perverts 21:23:11 and they probably wanted a girl. 21:23:27 hm 21:23:30 lament, what about your name 21:23:35 your nick is a word 21:23:37 harder to google 21:23:47 olle silva 21:24:08 oerjan, hittade du på det? 21:24:24 självklart 21:24:26 aha 21:24:35 hittade på vad 21:24:44 anagrammet 21:24:50 på nätet? 21:24:52 åhå 21:24:59 oklopol, err.. va? 21:25:07 "hittade på" == made it up 21:25:18 lol 21:25:23 oklopol, what did you think? 21:25:31 a nuance of find 21:25:38 rather embarrassing. 21:25:38 * AnMaster googles "nuance" 21:25:45 not that i know swedish, but still. 21:25:56 oklopol, well "hitta" is "find" 21:26:00 i know. 21:26:06 it's not like you had to learn it in school or something 21:26:08 i thought it sounded a bit curious. 21:26:13 ah 21:26:33 well "hitta på " == "make up" 21:26:44 well i was pretty much a top student in all languages. 21:26:46 norwegian is "finne på", same structure and meaning of parts 21:27:02 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird|away. 21:27:19 oerjan, yeah I figure you Norwegians can understand Swedish better than we Swedes can understand Norwegian 21:27:20 :/ 21:27:33 AnMaster: please don't translate things twice to me after i fail. 21:27:57 oklopol, you mean like "hitta på" <=> "make up" 21:27:58 i'm a sore loser especially when there's no competition. 21:27:59 :D 21:28:10 yep, all swedish culture comes to norway, little goes the other way 21:28:31 strange... why would it be like that, oerjan? 21:29:00 -!- ehird|away has changed nick to ehird. 21:29:39 not sure, maybe norway is smaller means we need to take from where we can find it 21:29:58 oerjan, you have oil... 21:30:08 yes a mirc looser 21:30:09 i mean in population 21:30:12 I get the feeling you've never used mirc. 21:30:12 you lucky bastards, got lot of money from it 21:30:17 ehird, I have... 21:30:24 horrible 21:30:26 mirc's a fine client, it's shit like hydraIRC that suck 21:30:26 s 21:30:37 ehird, mircscript is worse than apple script.. 21:30:42 uhh, who cares 21:30:46 i'm talking about the actual client 21:30:46 well 21:30:54 ehird, the client is bad too 21:30:54 IMO 21:31:13 anyway I have no interest to discuss subjective stuff with you 21:31:20 you just never change your mind 21:31:35 (I don't often, but I sometimes do) 21:31:38 yeah, how dare I not be convinced by amazing arguments like yes a mirc looser 21:31:44 i'm so stubborn 21:31:52 ehird, it wasn't an argument 21:31:56 it was a random comment 21:31:57 ... 21:32:31 i'm at least one mirc looser than you. 21:32:50 oklopol: maybe by amirc he meant american 21:32:58 an american that is looser? 21:33:02 oklopol: yes, let's try and bury the quarrel in puns :D 21:33:40 yeah we can be like the messengers of luv 21:34:07 we have nothing to loose 21:34:43 hm we won that one fast 21:34:58 did I mention AnMaster is an idiot? 21:35:04 oerjan: now you can go some mor 21:35:05 e 21:35:55 -!- ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating..."). 21:37:13 i think i'll have to loose that challenge 21:37:32 oooooooooooo 21:37:41 -!- ehird has joined. 21:38:02 eek, playing loose and fast with o's seems to have caused them to procreate 21:38:19 probably that's what happens 21:38:21 i mean 21:38:23 happened 21:38:48 i have to be now. 21:38:48 -> 21:39:20 we should all be more. 21:43:53 I am a retard 21:43:59 fputs("\0 21:44:01 spot the error? 21:45:17 missing "); 21:45:27 Deewiant: how about the fact that it WON'T PRINT ANY CHARACTER 21:45:31 and also, fputs writes zero-terminated strings. 21:45:34 exactly. 21:45:40 ehird: stuff that doesn't compile generally doesn't do much 21:45:46 but yeah 21:45:50 shush, there was string after it 21:45:53 zero-terminated strings are idiotic. 21:46:01 idiotic like a hamburger. 21:46:15 should I feel bad about trolling ##christian? 21:46:16 ich bin ein hamburger 21:46:25 yeah, like a hamburger. I guess. (?) 21:46:28 or was that a jelly donut 21:46:30 Deewiant: exactly. 21:46:59 OH YEAH MY TGA KIND OF WORKS. 21:47:56 * oerjan drops Poe's Collected Laws on ehird |====| 21:49:39 Transient Global Amnesia always works as far as anyone can remember 21:51:09 hmm. how curious this is. 21:51:27 ah. 21:51:28 but of course. 21:51:39 but off course. 21:51:52 *butt 21:52:09 * oerjan needs to start typing slower than he thinks 21:52:18 -!- fizzie has joined. 21:52:22 blergh 21:52:27 too many sites offers openids 21:52:33 I never use openid 21:52:39 yet I have like 5 different ones 21:52:42 from different sites 21:52:50 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:53:00 what's a good way to notate homophonic music in ascii? 21:53:03 now all I want is like a um, openid manager... you know like a old style key ring app 21:53:09 i mean 21:53:13 i know what the possibilities are 21:53:22 to connect all these openids in some web-2.social way 21:53:24 there's tab notation, there's lilipond-style text-based format 21:53:28 *lilypond 21:53:31 AnMaster: or just... ignore them> 21:53:41 ehird, that works too, but is less sarcastic 21:53:42 you're only meant to have 1 openid. 21:53:44 but those possibilities suck, so my questios really is 21:53:46 *question 21:53:56 lament: invent your own. 21:53:59 yes 21:54:01 that's my question 21:54:16 lament: a number and then some ----'s 21:54:16 lament: base it on rotation. 21:54:17 ehird, err, a lot of sites I do have normal logins on apparently also provide openid based on that login, Not my fault. 21:54:20 everybody loves rotations. 21:54:26 I don't use *ANY* openid 21:54:29 bsmntbombdood: you mean in tab notation? 21:54:30 AnMaster: they are not offering an openid. 21:54:36 AnMaster: they are accepting openids. 21:54:40 lament: i don't know what that is 21:54:42 ehird, err wrong 21:54:48 oh. 21:54:50 I misread. 21:54:57 yes, you're only meant to use one. 21:55:09 ehird, for example it turned out I could use https://launchpad.net/~anmaster as an openid... saw that just now 21:55:10 you can even put it on multiple lines and make it polyphonic 21:55:17 same for several other sites 21:55:35 AnMaster: you would be an idiot to use launchpad as an OpenID. who wants to delegate their online identity to them? 21:55:37 bsmntbombdood: what would the numbers mean? 21:55:47 lament: the pitch 21:55:47 ehird, that is true... I wouldn't use it 21:55:52 I don't use ANY openid 21:55:56 since I trust no one 21:55:59 that's only the third time you've said that 21:56:00 congrats. 21:56:12 ehird, I was just reinforcing my argument or something ;P 21:56:22 AnMaster: so why are you using electricity 21:56:30 anyway, if you are just meant to have one openid... 21:56:34 how do you know the electricity company isn't monitoring your secret files 21:56:36 why do so many sites provide it? 21:56:50 most people are idiots. 21:56:51 ehird, through an UPS? 21:56:57 yes. 21:57:02 how? 21:57:17 ps you can host an openid yourself, yknow. 21:58:05 ehird, well ps, I don't own any domain I know I will have in 20 years, while an encrypted backup of a keychain that is refreshed every week and for which I know the password... 21:58:20 for some reason I trust that more :> 21:58:28 20 freaking years? 21:58:41 i somehow very much doubt the www will be around as it is now in 20 years. 21:58:43 ehird, hey, long now foundation is even more extreme 21:58:55 er, no. 21:59:01 totally different. 21:59:09 ehird, true 21:59:18 why do I have to use relevant arguments? 21:59:27 it is like boring, + not fair when you don't anyway 21:59:36 erm, I do use relevant arguments. 21:59:42 always? 21:59:44 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:00:00 way more often than you, at least. 22:00:01 use elephant arguments 22:00:08 if people disagree, stomp on them 22:00:20 i disagree. 22:00:31 * Deewiant stomps on lament 22:00:35 arousing 22:00:36 * AnMaster stomps on Deewiant 22:00:40 * oerjan stomps on lament |_|_|_|_| 22:00:45 holy shit, stomp orgy. 22:00:47 ouch 22:00:49 * AnMaster stomps on the elephant 22:00:52 darn too slow 22:00:55 it's all my wildest fantasies come true 22:00:56 * Deewiant stomps on the argument 22:00:59 oerjan, what? 22:01:09 * oerjan stomps on AnMaster |_|_|_|_| 22:01:22 Always wear a hard hat on IRC :) 22:01:27 i didn't notice everyone else started before i finished the foot 22:01:28 * AnMaster stomps on oerjan 22:01:45 oerjan, that was a foot? 22:01:48 get a room 22:02:06 an elephant foot, naturally 22:02:14 really? 22:02:27 looked line some glasses side by side 22:02:30 no, virtually 22:02:46 oerjan, more unvirtually you mean. 22:03:04 * oerjan stomps on AnMaster some more for disagreeing |_|_|_|_| 22:03:09 * AnMaster dodges 22:03:49 hm this foot is too small and easily dodgeable 22:03:54 also that was a less uninstopdededers 22:04:01 |_|_|_|_| |_|_|_|_| |_|_|_|_| |_|_|_|_| 22:04:07 uninstompdededers* 22:04:16 * oerjan uses an apatosaurus foot this time |__|__|__|__|__| 22:04:17 lament, no luck 22:04:21 also afk for a bit 22:04:26 * AnMaster leaves the room 22:04:33 patosaurus!!! 22:04:48 'patasaurus!!! 22:05:10 petasaurus!!! 22:05:20 PITAsaurus 22:06:01 Asztal: er, your routine produces upside down images 22:06:02 I'm pretty sure 22:07:00 ehird: aw o+ au!j >|oo| hay+ 22:07:08 what 22:08:05 * oerjan carefully moves away from the ehird black hole 22:08:39 and by that i mean you seem particularly dense 22:09:41 :( 22:10:26 hint: it was a comment on your previous one 22:10:39 vut 22:10:48 Asztal: er, your routine produces upside down images 22:10:58 was your text meant to be upside down 22:11:01 I tried to read it lik ethat 22:11:17 well within the limits of ASCII 22:14:31 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:15:21 ehird: odd, I don't really remember 22:15:33 I probably only tried it on symmetrical images :D 22:17:12 Asztal: in fact, it flips it horizontally too 22:17:14 well 22:17:17 it swaps x and y coords 22:17:21 impressive 22:17:26 in a 100 px image (99,0) is the top left. 22:17:48 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 22:21:14 -!- FireFly has joined. 22:21:54 * oerjan swats FireFly -----### 22:22:58 :< 22:23:00 :<< 22:23:56 what <-- didn't you once claim that was my typical comment. Fail. 22:23:58 hah, i knew they were legs 22:24:03 no way you have two mouths 22:24:27 heh 22:25:52 ehird, idea: unless performance critical just flip the image afterwards? 22:26:03 i'd prefer to output a correct tga 22:26:05 not hard to fix 22:26:11 what <-- didn't you once claim that was my typical comment. Fail. 22:26:19 I've been saying "what" for years 22:26:36 it doesn't mean "what?" it means "i seeeeeee". 22:29:05 oh 22:29:40 * oerjan notes certain things take on a completely new meaning then 22:29:57 ehird: aw o+ au!j >|oo| hay+ 22:29:57 what 22:30:00 vut 22:30:09 exactly 22:30:09 ehird, no it means "what" in that context 22:30:25 ehird could've been confused by oerjan telling him he's dense. 22:30:37 AnMaster: I know what I meant, thanks. 22:31:30 ----------------------------- 22:31:30 | | | 22:31:30 | | | 22:31:30 | | | -------------- 22:31:30 | | | | 22:31:32 | | | | 22:31:33 -------|--------------------- 22:31:35 | 22:31:37 | 22:31:39 | 22:32:01 What's that? A gigantic swatter? :< 22:32:04 a lisp cons cell. see http://labs.aezenix.com/lispm/skins/common/images/cons-chip-80.jpg 22:32:12 Ah, well, close one 22:32:15 it can probably swat flies too, though 22:33:32 sleep -> 22:34:45 more like swat elephants 22:38:20 I think TGA has two bits in the header you can set to flip the TGA in x or y 22:39:06 | 8 | 2 | X Origin of Image. | 22:39:06 | | | Integer ( lo-hi ) X coordinate of the lower left corner | 22:39:06 | | | of the image. | 22:39:06 | | | | 22:39:09 | 10 | 2 | Y Origin of Image. | 22:39:16 | | | Integer ( lo-hi ) Y coordinate of the lower left corner | 22:39:17 | | | of the image. | 22:39:18 ? 22:39:19 oh 22:39:20 | | | Bit 5 - screen origin bit. | 22:39:30 | | | 0 = Origin in lower left-hand corner. | 22:39:31 | | | 1 = Origin in upper left-hand corner. | 22:39:32 doesn't help for the other problem 22:40:08 didn't help either 22:47:28 ehird, a cons chip 22:47:28 ? 22:47:30 details? 22:47:36 sure, it's a lisp machine 22:47:45 ehird, wow, one cons cell per chip? 22:47:45 an MIT CONS, to be specific 22:47:49 AnMaster: er, no. 22:47:55 that's just the logo of the machines. 22:47:55 ah right 22:47:59 I see 22:48:02 righ 22:48:04 right* 22:48:09 hi comex 23:03:04 Has anyone here played around with WireWorld? 23:03:35 i want a lisp machine 23:03:42 bsmntbombdood: ditto. 23:03:53 we should design one on an fpga 23:03:56 fuck yes 23:04:02 that would be pretty fucking #esoteric 23:04:05 and awesome 23:04:07 yes 23:04:12 end the scourge of computing slums 23:04:13 or whatever 23:04:25 bsmntbombdood: y'know, now I cannot die until that is done. 23:04:31 i have temporary immortality! 23:05:46 as opposed to spatial immortality 23:06:26 spatial immortality is provided by formalin 23:06:45 ah. 23:07:58 from this we conclude that the clue to full immortality is to find a way to transport formalin faster than light. 23:22:04 so how do you do gc in hardware? 23:23:13 bsmntbombdood: iirc, you don't 23:23:20 you offer the neccessary hooks for the language to do it 23:23:27 how do you facilitate fast gc in hardware 23:23:35 bsmntbombdood: you don't actually run lisp on the hardware -- you still compile -- just it's an instruction set suited for lisp 23:23:41 also, I'm not really sure 23:23:46 hooks into finding objects, or something like that 23:26:10 you can probably make continuations nicer with hardware support 23:26:56 yes 23:27:09 bsmntbombdood: look up 'orthogonal persistence' 23:27:19 it's totally suited to a lisp machine 23:28:52 14:56:22 chat bots are stupid 23:28:52 14:56:35 please stop talking about them 23:28:53 14:56:38 everyone 23:28:53 14:56:40 in the world 23:31:29 hmmm 23:31:46 if the operating system supports it, you can do copying gc without copying 23:32:10 a modern lisp machine would totally make me stop hating computers 23:32:17 goddamn x86 23:41:02 so bsmntbombdood. have it on my desk by tomorrow 23:41:15 kay 23:41:20 woot 23:49:08 from this we conclude that the clue to full immortality is to find a way to transport formalin faster than light. <-- :D 23:51:39 It's just Logic, Sir 23:52:12 and a little bit of special relativity. 23:52:56 O, Wise Oerjan, would you please describe the logical steps to teach that conclusion. 23:52:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("'night everybody"). 23:54:06 * AnMaster prods oerjan 23:54:21 s/teach/reach/ 23:54:35 Why, to get full immortality we must naturally have both temporal and spatial immortality, as mentioned above. 23:55:03 Also, formalin allows us spatial immortality, also above. 23:55:21 oerjan, yes, indeed, but you got temporal immortality due to wanting to complete a Lisp Machine 23:55:29 ... that was me. 23:55:30 Not I 23:55:36 well true 23:55:44 also, it was temporary 23:55:45 "you" in the generic sense here 23:55:45 not temporal 23:55:47 oerjan was punning 23:55:49 ehird, oh right 23:55:54 AnMaster: "you" cannot be generic there 23:56:01 so where did you end up faster than light 23:56:04 "but you gain temporal immortality" would be valid 23:56:09 ehird, more less unyous 23:56:11 AnMaster: #esoteric 23:56:38 ah of course... #esoteric explains it 23:56:39 ... 23:56:41 duh 23:57:01 By special relativity, space can be converted into time by a suitable change of speed. For full conversion, however, faster than light travel is necessary. Q.E.D. 23:58:08 oerjan, right 23:59:23 ehird, you still like small talk right? 23:59:30 Smalltalk, yes. small talk, no. 23:59:33 Visual Smalltalk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VistaSmalltalk 23:59:37 basically 23:59:40 -_- 2009-02-18: 00:00:04 So I shouldn't mention how tomorrow is forecast to be above freezing here for the first time in a while? 00:00:10 -!- FireFly has left (?). 00:00:10 AnMaster: wrong 00:00:17 it was actually pretty neat 00:00:22 ehird, really? 00:00:24 mhm 00:00:28 yes, it ran on flash too 00:00:32 it was smalltalk in a browser 00:01:06 LULZKERNEL 00:01:20 wut 00:01:29 Which, paradoxically, will of course only ensure that we get _more_ ice and dangerous roads. 00:02:31 if "wut" = "i seeee" then i think "i seeee" must mean something other than i think 00:03:05 or are "what", "vut" and "wut" not equivalent? 00:03:44 oerjan, interesting analysis 00:04:03 It's just Logic, Sir 00:04:20 yes indeed 00:05:11 oerjan: not equivalent 00:05:18 also, I seeee is kind of sarcastic 00:05:27 "what" doesn't mean "what", it means "wow, that was completely incomprehensible" 00:05:36 "wut" means "I see your LSD there." 00:05:43 "vut" means "huh?" 00:07:04 ehird, I seeeeeeeeeeeee 00:07:28 no. that does not work. 00:07:36 ehird, why? 00:07:40 too much? 00:07:47 I se 00:08:08 or only 4 e? 00:08:25 Factor is nice 00:08:30 project euler problem #1: 1 1000 [a,b) [ [ 3 mod zero? ] [ 5 mod zero? ] bi or ] filter sum 00:08:53 (find the sum of all multiples of 3 and 5 below 1000) 00:10:09 the befunge: 00:10:10 25*:*25**1-00p010p>00g 3% #v_10g00g+10pv 00:10:10 |p00:-1g00 < < < 00:10:12 @.g01< > ^ 00:10:20 >00g5%#v_10g00g+10p^ 00:10:21 ^ < 00:13:55 * AnMaster reads that 00:15:34 INIT: store 1000 in (0,-1)... write 0 in (0,1) 00:15:38 then the main loop 00:16:31 (read from 0,0) % 3,compare to 0.. branch... 00:17:06 if 0 then check 5... compare to 0... branch... 00:17:45 err 00:17:51 that should be if 1 00:18:04 if 0 it adds it to another variable 00:18:35 similar code for 5 00:18:41 well, it works, says the author 00:18:46 |p00:-1g00 then 00:18:47 it is befunge-93, I think 00:18:56 that is all that is left to figure out 00:19:17 read from 0,0, substract 1, write to 0,0 00:19:23 and yes 00:19:29 that is the loop counter 00:19:52 and it stored 999 to 0,0, not 10000 to 0,-1 00:20:04 ehird, indeed the program should work 00:21:07 why is it 25*:*25** rather than simply 25*::** 00:21:24 oerjan, beats me 00:22:12 oerjan, you could golf that code quite a lot 00:22:35 hm right project euler isn't a golf site 00:22:55 I mean using swap instead of getting from funge space all the time 00:23:08 oerjan, heh 00:29:59 night 00:37:59 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 00:59:01 -!- dean has joined. 01:08:16 -!- dean has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:08:54 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:15:03 -!- metaphysician has quit ("Oh Noes!"). 01:33:18 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 01:44:03 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:39:07 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:39:18 -!- fizzie has joined. 02:47:48 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 02:51:40 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out). 02:51:56 -!- oklopol has joined. 02:57:55 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:41:59 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:45:15 -!- Slereah has joined. 04:16:08 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 04:30:35 -!- Dewi has joined. 05:01:15 ehird: I see you posted something about WSGIScriptAlias in .htaccess ... did you ever find a workaround? 05:01:24 (Unless this is a different ehird :) ) 05:12:58 G'night all 05:13:02 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:21:13 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 05:39:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:10:09 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:22:43 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 07:28:19 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 07:35:01 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 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10:52:56 yop 10:53:44 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:55:04 poy 10:55:35 hi ais523 10:56:15 hi 11:17:18 -!- Corun has joined. 11:19:08 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 11:21:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:09:54 -!- jix has joined. 12:54:14 -!- M0ny has joined. 12:58:56 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 12:59:05 -!- jix has joined. 13:01:13 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:35:45 -!- Judofyr has joined. 13:50:53 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 13:52:07 to bore an aerobot. 13:54:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:54:26 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 14:38:35 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:38:37 -!- ehird has joined. 14:39:35 YO BITCHIZZLES 14:39:37 bsmntbombdood: wherza lisp machine 14:39:41 21:01:15 ehird: I see you posted something about WSGIScriptAlias in .htaccess ... did you ever find a workaround? 14:39:43 21:01:24 (Unless this is a different ehird :) ) 14:39:45 whuz the issue 14:39:47 just put it in an httpd.conf :P 14:39:49 less elegant? yep. meh. 14:40:16 Hello, ELLIOT 14:40:23 ELLIOTT, bitch ass. 14:40:25 :| 14:40:37 Go back to Elliottia 14:40:40 ais523: I've been playing with massively overcomitting mmaps 14:40:47 I can mmap 2.5 GB but not (size_t)-1 14:42:38 ais523: alive? 14:42:54 ehird: no, I ran into a vampire in minetown and wasn't watching my hitpoints 14:43:01 s/minetown/mine's end/ 14:43:10 it happens 14:43:32 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 14:43:52 * ehird decides to write a program to search for the maximum I can mmap 14:47:03 i can mmap 3gb 14:47:10 which is greater than the memory I actually have.. 14:47:42 how much swap do you have? 14:48:04 ehm... I think OS X has infinite swap 14:48:13 I certainly can't configure it 14:49:36 ais523: /private/var/vm 14:49:41 -rw------T 1 root wheel 64M 11 Feb 21:18 swapfile0 14:49:41 -rw------T 1 root wheel 64M 12 Feb 23:26 swapfile1 14:49:41 -rw------T 1 root wheel 128M 12 Feb 23:26 swapfile2 14:49:41 -rw------T 1 root wheel 256M 16 Feb 00:16 swapfile3 14:49:42 -rw------T 1 root wheel 512M 16 Feb 00:27 swapfile4 14:49:42 -rw------T 1 root wheel 1.0G 17 Feb 16:31 swapfile5 14:49:59 heh, I like the filesizes 14:50:02 an odd arrangement indeed 14:50:09 it's clearly been using an exponential allocation strategy 14:50:13 yes 14:50:27 so I have 2GB of swap 14:50:32 ... so, I should try and allocate 4gb 14:50:34 maybe a bit less than 4gb 14:51:09 http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080926085342AA29rTU "Would a 4GB flashdrive hold up 726 bytes?" 14:51:32 ais523: ok, I can mmap 4gb 14:51:37 I bet it fails if I +1 14:51:44 hmm ... nope 14:51:50 64-bit system? 14:51:55 yes 14:52:11 well, most apps are 32-bit. but Factor and this have been -m64'd. 14:52:29 ais523: I'm basically trying to find a O(1) way to find out how much I can mmap without mmap realising I'm being tricksy on BSD/Linux 14:52:32 ehird: I'm worried by the "best answer" on that, which implies 726 MB > 4 GB 14:52:36 but it seems to be semi-arbitrary 14:52:45 ais523: :-D 14:52:58 I'm worried by Yahoo answers i ngeneral! 14:53:03 well, yes 14:53:07 "The 4 GB Flash drive will work, but I would recommend a pocket media drive. They start from 100 GB and can go up to 500 GB. They are very small (fit in a pocket)." 14:53:13 because pretty much every question seems to have stupidity in that order in it 14:53:19 BECAUSE WHAT IF YOU HAVE TO STORE _MANY_ 726 BYTE FILES 14:53:24 also, the first answer is correct, if not properly explained 14:53:36 and it's pretty clear the person asking the question dropped the word "mega" from it 14:53:40 well, the word-segment 14:53:47 ais523: n 14:53:48 no 14:53:49 It reads size as 726 bytes and size on disc 4.00KB (4,096bytes). 14:53:58 ah, missed that bit 14:53:59 that was clearly copied out from the windows property box 14:54:02 well in that case, wtf? 14:54:17 times like these make me wish computers required licenses. 14:54:23 ais523: they could just memorize the file :P 14:54:47 * ais523 picks the most recent question in the electronics section 14:54:51 to get a sort of random sample 14:54:52 http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Apngm_fViZNk8wvQ7TC8QjGzxQt.;_ylv=3?qid=20090218064820AAcLxie 14:54:57 http://gyu.que.jp/jscloth/touch.html <- holy feck (enable JS) 14:55:15 ais523: haunted computer 14:55:26 I was actually wondering if he'd got his computer confused with a TV 14:55:36 although it seems to have task manager, so maybe not 14:55:43 maybe it's a troll 14:56:36 http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AtBwU5Fdpb8IgZySgDYGvDCzxQt.;_ylv=3?qid=20090218015557AA7g5TU is another pretty bad one too 14:56:47 factor, by the way, is an excellent language made by someone who knows what they're doing and it's also fast, and has great unicode support and tons of libraries/ 14:56:51 everyone should try it. 14:57:15 (also, the workspace UI is like Smalltalk and Emacs put into one, except it integrates with the OS and you can use your own editor) 14:57:34 does it work without the UI too? 14:57:39 yes 14:57:44 in which case it's just a regular REPL 14:57:47 and you can run programs like that 14:57:50 including hash-bang style 14:57:59 but the UI is really great for development 14:58:19 sounds good, then 14:58:24 language tied to IDE = bad 14:58:28 language which comes with an IDE = good 14:58:39 well, the actual editing is outsourced to whatever editor you wish 14:58:45 better still 14:58:46 but it provides tons of hooks and documentation and a REPL etc 14:58:58 ais523: the UI itself is rather crazy; it's drawn manually with OpenGL... 14:59:05 why is that crazy? 14:59:12 i'd just use a gui toolkit :D 14:59:18 hmm, I forgot to mention that factor's a functional, concatenative lang 14:59:30 I guessed, I think I've heard of it vaguely 14:59:33 basically joy except usable. 15:00:00 It's made by the guy who wrote jEdit, if you've heard of that 15:01:08 ais523: it's crazy how much random stuff it has 15:02:30 it comes with a library for graphs, continuations, a full objective-c bridge with helper functions for making cocoa UIs, a bloody web framework, cellular automata stuff, coroutines, a pong game using the UI, a tetris game using the UI,... 15:02:46 oh, and a sudoku solver 15:02:50 (the latter ones are just demos, though) 15:03:15 it also has proper compiler macros, which is always nice 15:05:03 it reminds me of smalltalk quite a lot 15:05:04 you can do 15:05:07 \ word-name edit 15:05:13 and it pops up the word's definition in your editor 15:07:42 apparently the optimizing native-code compiler is really good, not as good as ocaml though 15:11:33 ESR wrote "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" and, uh... maintains fetchmail 15:11:39 -- 2004-10-12, but not #esoteric 15:11:52 how could he forget about C-INTERCAL? 15:12:00 :-D 15:12:07 he gave up on C-INTERCAL. 15:12:11 it was too cool. not crap enough. 15:12:15 well, yes, but he still invented it 15:12:26 and 2004 is well before I started maintaining it 15:12:35 ais523: he thought it was a serious language, and was going to rewrite fetchmail in it 15:12:44 when he realised it was a joke, he hastily amended the README to reflect this and abandoned it 15:12:53 I don't think so 15:13:00 that's what he wants you to think 15:13:05 "Your IP address is: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1" -- factor example app 15:13:09 oh so fancy, with yer ipv6. 15:13:54 so when is everyone going to start using ipv6 again? 15:13:59 3001? 15:14:03 9001? 15:14:43 That is... 15:14:44 A lot. 15:14:56 Oh yeah, and he also single-handedly ruined the Jargon File. I hate him =( 15:14:58 this guy talks sense. 15:15:10 the sad face does it. 15:17:44 ais523: 16:15:56 Oh, there was that INTERCAL compiler too 15:17:58 an eizaphant never forgets 15:23:11 haha wow, you can use ^H as a variable name in SBCL 15:23:36 hmm, no 15:23:40 you can use ^X though 15:39:01 I Have an important request that made me to contact you; I am Mr.Wolak Rakan, I found Your profile very interesting and decided to reach you directly to solicit your assistance and Guidelines in making a business investment and transfer of (£12.5M GBP) to your country within the Next few days. 15:39:13 gmail has failed to filter this, so I think I'll play along 15:39:38 wow 15:39:41 that's a lot of money 15:39:45 will you give me a bit too? 15:39:49 sure 15:39:54 ehird: careful 15:39:54 \o/ thanks 15:40:06 some people have even died as the result of scams or scambaiting attempts 15:40:15 huh? 15:40:24 why haven't i heard, links 15:40:24 I'm kind of doubting sending a few silly emails will result in my death... 15:40:31 basically, they got involved with criminals as a result and the criminals didn't like what happened 15:40:57 i was going to go for the sillier tactics. like 'what about my fluffy bunny pal'. 15:41:15 it's from a "Wolak Rakan" 15:41:18 and the sig is in chinese 15:41:22 it's an exotic 419! 15:41:39 ... the sig links to an ecard service. 15:54:27 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:07:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:31:16 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:32:00 And no, smilies cannot ever face left just like you can never go back in time. 16:33:25 9: 16:34:33 * ais523 is reading the source to netcat 16:34:41 it's... not typical 16:37:05 ais523: Hobbit netcat 16:37:06 ? 16:37:06 or gnu 16:37:16 (I prefer the former, as you know...) 16:37:26 ais523: it is typical for ~1996 unix hacker sort of culture. 16:37:36 ehird: I don't know 16:37:40 ais523: is it GPL 16:37:53 $ nc --version 16:37:55 nc: invalid option -- '-' 16:38:00 I'm guessing it isn't the GNU version, then 16:38:06 % nc --version 16:38:06 nc: illegal option -- - 16:38:06 usage: nc [-46DdhklnrtUuvz] [-i interval] [-p source_port] 16:38:06 [-s source_ip_address] [-w timeout] [-X proxy_version] 16:38:06 [-x proxy_address[:port]] [hostname] [port[s]] 16:38:21 ais523: does your usage look like that? 16:38:29 there wasn't a usage 16:38:34 it just said "nc -h for help" 16:38:47 ais523: you have the source, surely you can check the comment header?!?!?! 16:39:10 ah yes, it's the hobbit version 16:39:18 which release? 16:39:25 960320 16:39:30 yep, that's the latest 16:39:53 it's solid code, what's not typical about it, ais523? 16:40:05 well, okay, it uses poop as a variable name, that is a bit strange. 16:40:17 register HINF * poop = NULL; 16:40:23 from function HINF * gethostpoop (name, numeric) 16:40:23 ehird: the comments 16:40:27 I assume poop actually means something 16:40:36 ais523: they're entertaining 16:40:40 exactly 16:40:46 how often do you see that in source nowadays? 16:40:53 true 16:41:16 #ifdef GAPING_SECURITY_HOLE 16:41:16 char * pr00gie = NULL;/* global ptr to -e arg */ 16:41:25 i bet -e was a last-minute afterthought 16:41:29 no 16:41:40 oh? did you ask him? :P 16:41:42 according to the readme if you turn that on in a suid root version of netcat, you're in trouble 16:41:50 ofc 16:42:00 I just mean 'pr00gie' 16:42:14 incidentally, this guy fell off the face of the earth after releasing a few netcat releases 16:42:16 the readme implies that he was preempting stupid packaging by giving the option a scary name 16:42:29 to a sufficient degree that bitrot has made google return no relevant results 16:42:49 and the only page you can get is the netcat page via the internet archive, IIRC 16:43:02 I wonder if this guy is a perl coder 16:43:04 bail, holler 16:43:06 ... carp, croak 16:43:32 no, I think this is the sort of person who invented Carp 16:43:38 it's the other way round 16:43:41 haha :D 16:43:54 Debug (("ipoptions ret len %d", x)) 16:43:57 damn, it's old-school debug macros. 16:44:49 * ais523 suddenly wonders how many commercial programs look like netcat 16:44:55 #ifdef HAVE_BIND 16:44:55 res_init(); 16:44:55 #endif 16:44:58 er 16:44:59 stupid client 16:45:04 #ifdef HAVE_BIND 16:45:06 /* can *you* say "cc -yaddayadda netcat.c -lresolv -l44bsd" on SunLOSs? */ 16:45:09 res_init(); 16:45:09 #endif 16:45:11 I don't know, can I? 16:45:35 ais523: windows? 16:45:40 more cursing, though. 16:45:44 and less.. working 16:45:53 /* If your shitbox doesn't have getopt, step into the nineties already. */ 16:45:57 wow, a time when systems didn't have getopt 16:46:07 Windows still doesn't 16:46:13 at least, not without cygwin or some other library 16:46:16 does windows count as a system, relaly 16:46:17 *really 16:46:32 #ifdef HAVE_HELP 16:46:32 helpme();/* exits by itself */ 16:46:32 #else 16:46:32 bail ("no help available, dork -- RTFS"); 16:46:32 #endif 16:46:38 now why would you not define HAVE_HELP? 16:46:46 to make the executable smaller, obviously 16:47:36 ais523: nope - smugness 16:47:36 #ifdef HAVE_HELP/* unless we wanna be *really* cryptic */ 16:48:09 tbh, options are one thing that can normally be deduced from the source, unless it's intentionally obfuscated 16:48:39 /* None genuine without this seal! _H*/ 16:48:48 Unforgable electronic signature 16:49:03 hey, it didn't say it guaranteed the source was genuine 16:49:08 just that the source wasn't genuine without it 16:49:10 which is correct 16:49:16 :D 16:50:55 ais523: when you wanna make an FPGA-type thing you use vhdl or verilog right? 16:51:00 yes 16:51:16 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:51:30 ais523: see i was thinking about bsmntbombdood's yesterday idea of a modern lisp machine in fpga 16:51:40 and it wouldnt' feel right to make a lisp machine in anything but something using lisp, y'know? 16:51:46 I have no idea how to code up a lisp machine, really 16:51:50 :-D 16:51:52 and you have to start somewhere 16:52:03 well, if you're in the 80s and a company, you make yer own damn chip 16:52:06 I mean, I can sort-of understand how to implement Lisp in an imperative manner 16:52:13 but not in a behavioural manner 16:52:15 oh, you don't implement lisp on the chip directly 16:52:20 oh, boring 16:52:37 ais523: what machine code is to C, lisp machine code is to lisp 16:52:55 I guessed it would be something like that 16:52:58 i.e., a relatively simple translation, with features specificalyl designed to make parts of the latter easier 16:53:16 although, lisp machines are closer to Lisp than x86 is to C 16:53:24 since they were bsaically designed to do lisp and nothing else 16:58:04 ais523: say, that solving a maze with random walk thing in ocaml you said was so fast 16:58:16 care to paste your code? I'd be interested in seeing how well factor does, speed-wise 16:58:21 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:58:41 ehird: legally can't, I don't have the copyright on it 16:58:50 Ouch; copyright assignment? 16:58:53 Nasty. 16:58:53 working for a university is ridiculous 16:59:24 Just imagine, people do that willingly. With the FSF. 16:59:28 They think it's a _good thing_... 16:59:57 well, for small submissions, when you don't care about the licence anyway, it makes it easier for the FSF to sue people infringing the copyright 17:00:37 if you don't care there's no point suing. 17:00:40 I <3 centralization. ... not 17:00:46 ehird: if you don't care and they do 17:00:55 huh? 17:00:58 then you might agree to the requirement so as to get your code in their projects 17:01:02 I mean, you don't care but the FSF does 17:01:04 oh, right 17:01:09 I'm saying that the whole concept is ridiculous 17:04:02 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:04:28 the factor CLI reminds me of running the mathematica kernel directly and I don't know why 17:04:28 [ehird:/Applications/Factor] % ./factor 17:04:29 ( scratchpad ) 1 0 / 17:04:29 Division by zero 17:04:29 Type :help for debugging help. 17:04:31 ( scratchpad ) 17:04:40 ( scratchpad ) 1 17:04:40 --- Data stack: 17:04:40 1 17:04:46 well, that's reverse polish, which looks concatenative right away 17:04:56 oh, yes 17:04:58 also, I've never tried to run the mathematica kernel directly 17:04:59 I just mean the general feel of it 17:05:28 ais523: 17:05:29 [ehird:/Applications/Mathematica.app/Contents/MacOS] % ./MathKernel 17:05:29 Mathematica 7.0 for Mac OS X x86 (64-bit) 17:05:29 Copyright 1988-2008 Wolfram Research, Inc. 17:05:29 In[1]:= 1/0 17:05:30 1 17:05:31 Power::infy: Infinite expression - encountered. 17:05:33 0 17:05:35 Out[1]= ComplexInfinity 17:05:38 In[2]:= 17:05:40 er, sorry for the flood 17:05:53 I guess it's just having used a similar GUI interface,then seeing it emulated at a console 17:06:13 hmm... they don't seem all that similar 17:06:22 they're both REPLs, but I don't see more of a similarity than that 17:06:54 in fact the Mathematica kernel reminds me more of the Perl debug REPLs on CPAN than of the Factor one 17:07:08 ais523: they're both mainly used via UI interfaces that look essentially the same, but are richer in the UI environment 17:07:15 ah 17:07:25 giving a sort of detached feeling. But I'm just odd. 17:09:39 also, there's a slight problem with factor's pong demo 17:09:44 specifically, the AI is unbeatable. 17:09:56 that's not a problem, it just makes the game different 17:10:05 as in, changing it from "can you win" to "how long will you last"? 17:10:22 ais523: true. but you can't score at all 17:10:30 yet it can 17:12:20 ais523: how much do you reckon my system will let me mmap? 17:12:52 it would be nice if it was exactly your free memory + your free disk space 17:12:56 haha 17:12:58 I'd be really impressed with Apple if it was that 17:13:02 naw, it's a bit less unfortunately 17:13:07 I'm thinking it's 3.5GB 17:13:15 as I have 2.5GB and 2GB of swap 17:13:16 errr... 17:13:18 4.5GB 17:13:37 [problem is, determining this in a portable way across linux/bsd 17:14:07 hmm nope, more than 4.5GB 17:14:28 i can allocate 5gb 17:14:45 * ehird puts sleep(10), to see if Activity Monitor puts it at 'Virtual memory: 5gb' 17:14:55 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:15:06 Hello French dude. 17:15:24 ais523: it pputs it at virtual memory = 7.5gb... 17:16:12 ah 17:16:13 then it goes down 17:16:14 to 11MB 17:16:21 i guess it realises it's playing dirty tricks 17:16:40 can you quickly write to all that 4.5GB in ten seconds 17:16:47 maybe one byte per megabyte for speed? 17:16:58 heh, I'll make it write to it 17:17:09 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 17:17:13 I'll write to it at 5368709110 17:17:17 which is about 10 bytes from the end 17:17:36 zsh: segmentation fault ./overcommit 17:17:38 unsurprising 17:18:36 well, I'm slightly surprised it's a segfault not some other sort of error 17:18:54 ais523: the OS just lies to the program 17:18:58 and gives it back a smaller space 17:19:04 (that can expand at will) 17:19:55 writing to it puts it at 7.5GB real m emory then grows to 1.19GB real memory, then my system lags like fuck and I have to terminate it 17:20:04 somewhere in the vicinity of 323000000 in 17:20:11 (out of 5368709120) 17:20:13 err 17:20:17 7.5GB virtual memory 17:20:18 I mean 17:20:58 ais523: I can write to [323000000] then read it fine 17:21:00 (if I do nothing else) 17:21:10 presumably, it breaks down if I go further than my free memory 17:21:16 which OS X sez is 1.21GB 17:21:18 so let's try that 17:22:20 hmm, nope 17:22:55 ais523: writing to 5000000000 out of 5368709120 segfaults 17:22:55 so 17:22:56 new theory: 17:23:00 i can use up to my total memory 17:23:18 ah, I can see how that would happen 17:23:24 yeah 17:23:26 or maybe up to your total memory - the amount the OS absolutely needs 17:23:39 yep, [1610612736] segfaults 17:23:47 so I'll try 1610000000 17:23:59 that also segfaults 17:24:03 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 17:24:10 so does 1600000000... 17:24:27 & 1500000000 17:24:40 1000000000 works 17:25:07 ais523: heh, if I assign to [1000000000] activity monitor says 7.56GB, as if I was using all the previous data 17:25:12 overcomitting is _weird_ 17:25:28 so are gibibytes 17:25:49 ais523: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080513171119AAYgfzE <- wtf @ best answer 17:26:39 I reckon there are people who go around yahoo answers upvoting obviously stupid answers for fun 17:26:56 ais523: that was chosen by the asker 17:27:02 ... 17:27:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection reset by peer). 17:28:54 anyway, here's my current code: 17:29:00 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:29:23 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:29:30 ais523: http://pastie.org/393011.txt?key=hgvohjpomjrqkeebq3smg 17:29:45 could you try it on your system? I assume it'll fail due to the large amounts, but I'm curious as to what point 17:29:49 the mmap? the assignment? 17:30:02 ehird: I know from experience not to mess with overcommitting on here 17:30:06 huh? 17:30:17 I don't think my program can break your computer ... 17:30:25 it's taken me half an hour to unthrash it after accidentally using up too much memory when compiling C-INTERCAL 17:30:37 ais523: ah, well mine won't use more than 1 integer's worth of memory 17:30:37 so it doesn't break the computer, but it makes it unusable for a while 17:30:48 since it doesn't use any more than one integer's worth 17:30:49 well, I don't have much memory 17:30:58 do you have sizeof(int) memory? :P 17:31:06 considerably less IIRC 17:31:24 erm 17:31:29 what kind of computer is that 17:31:32 that cannot hold an int 17:31:41 apparently I have 1000.2 MiB of memory 17:32:11 ehird: I wasn't sure of the units, I assumed you were referring to an int-range of memory 17:32:17 no, I meant one integer :P 17:32:20 but that max memory value is pretty suspicious by itself 17:32:30 well, technically it stores an integer pointer too. 17:34:45 ais523: I predict the mmap will just fail 17:34:55 as overcommitting seems to be careful to a degree 17:34:58 for a second there i thought ais523 has a bignum computer. 17:35:05 well i didn't, but i hoped. 17:35:08 meh, maybe I'll turn overcommit off and then run it 17:35:14 that will definitely fail... 17:35:22 oklopol: omg that'd be amazing. 17:35:28 i bet the lispms had that 17:35:29 or set it to always overcommit even in ridiculous circumstances mode 17:35:44 who came up with overcomitting 17:35:50 yessssssss everything should be implemented hardware level, it may be stupid, but damn it's cool. 17:35:57 *at 17:38:08 On the structure of the cohomology of nilpotent Lie algebras (2007) - my masters thesis, written under the supervision of Barry Jessup and Paul-Eugene Parent. 17:38:13 I think this is the only reason I actually like factor 17:38:22 what is? 17:38:28 the author wrote that :P 17:38:37 and it makes absolutely no sense 17:38:40 have you read it, or do you just like the na,e? 17:38:53 it reads like it was generated 17:38:54 http://factorcode.org/result.pdf 17:40:02 ehird: you clearly don't read many academic papers, then 17:40:08 oh I read them 17:40:11 I just don't understand them 17:40:21 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 17:41:05 have you read mine about the 2,3 machine, by the way? 17:41:11 yes 17:41:13 admittedly, it's rather boring 17:41:17 wasn't it typeset in arial? 17:41:26 no idea, quite possibly 17:41:30 it was just an openoffice file 17:41:48 ah, I remember what happened 17:42:00 http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/TM23Proof.pdf 17:42:04 I think I was using a linux-specific font, they wanted to put some mathematica code at the end so I sent them the .odt 17:42:07 looks like Univers 17:42:07 maybe 17:42:15 the actual text is times 17:42:16 and they somehow managed to mess up the conversion of the edited version to pdf 17:42:16 ugly times. 17:42:21 in fact, I think it's times new roma 17:42:22 n 17:42:28 line height 1 17:43:05 wow, that Mathematica at the end is ugly 17:43:12 it's really long too 17:43:17 yes 17:43:31 I hadn't really mastered the habit of concise Mathematica, that requires memorising the entire stdlib really 17:44:18 ironically, the Perl does the same thing as the Mathematica and runs a lot faster 17:44:28 so if they wanted to show off their prize programming language, they failed 17:45:04 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Connection timed out). 17:46:51 It is irritating that SBCL's only UI is emacs. 17:47:14 (The non-editing-supporting, dumb-terminal sbcl(1) does not count) 17:47:41 obviously, readline should be a wrapper program, not a library 17:47:59 that's a lot more UNIXy, and would probably work just as well 17:48:08 it is. 17:48:11 see ledit(1). 17:48:19 but sbcl is a mainly closed-world system, like most lisps. 17:48:24 you shouldn't have to do that 17:48:38 also, it doesn't work as well 17:48:41 e.g., tab completion 17:48:53 does readline do tab-completion? 17:49:40 yes. 17:50:08 ais523: if readline was a wrapper, rms couldn't harass the clisp author with false accusations to make him use the gpl. 17:50:17 think of the childr^Wfsf 17:50:21 yes, I was just thinking the same thing 17:55:23 ais523: i wonder if my cynicism rubs off on everyone 17:56:27 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 17:57:26 Wonder how much an old lisp machine costs. 17:57:32 (A: A lot. Probably.) 17:59:33 lol, the scammer replied 17:59:40 what did he say? 17:59:46 Thank you for your mail, however I want to bring it to your notice that this business we are trying to do must Need at least 7 working days with full concentration, no matter how engage you may be in order for it to be concluded successfully. 17:59:48 [blah blah blah blah] 17:59:59 Finally, I want to remind you of the importance for you to keep this business very secret and confidential until this fund is transferred into your account, bearing in mind the nature of what we are doing. If you think we should proceed and agree with the terms then reconfirm your name and address ,telephone and fax number for me to prepare the agreement.I want you to bear it in mind that this is 100% risk free and legal. 18:00:22 7 working days with full concentration? I wouldn't be able to concentrate for that long... 18:00:35 i'm tempted to ask some sort of question about child labour 18:05:30 er 18:05:38 what's the emacs way to hook into when an autoload triggers? 18:05:48 I can't remember offhand 18:05:51 I think it involves add-hook 18:05:57 but I'm not sure what hook to hook into 18:08:02 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 18:09:55 :< 18:30:30 hmm 18:30:42 you can do mark-and-sweep in parallel right? 18:31:12 if you have an fpga you can have a piece that's constantly garbage collecting in the background 18:32:22 could be interesting 18:34:02 bsmntbombdood: mark-and-sweep is hideously stupid. 18:35:04 ehird: not if you are doing it concurrently 18:35:15 sure is, if you're doing it for a whole freaking machine 18:35:26 also, you can't really do much more than a conservative gc 18:35:31 you can sweep the whole memory every 2 minutes 18:35:32 which sux 18:35:36 ehird: it's a LISP MACHINE 18:35:40 no shit 18:35:40 it knows lisp 18:35:43 lisp machines run other code too 18:35:47 not this one 18:35:48 doesn't refcounting work in lisp? 18:35:49 and you can access memory directly with them 18:35:56 ais523: no. circular data structures. 18:35:56 because there's no way to express a cycle of references? 18:36:01 wrong. 18:36:01 8| 18:36:05 a lisp machine knows what you can do with pointers in lisp 18:36:09 ah, how do you get a circular data structure in lisp? 18:36:28 (defvar butts (cons 1 nil)) (replacd butts butts) 18:36:32 in some lisps there's even syntax for naming parts of a structure and referring from within 18:36:37 *to them 18:36:37 butts ;=> #1#=(1 . #1#) 18:36:42 (Printing syntax may be wrong, it's from memory) 18:36:44 ^ that syntax 18:36:56 hmm... I didn't even realise Lisp allowed that sort of thing 18:37:15 hmm right that's scheme's output syntax wasn't it? 18:37:20 amusingly, Perl allows that sort of thing but explicitly says it creates a memory leak, the programmer has to break the cycle for the resulting object to be garbage-collected 18:37:27 hmm 18:37:32 [18:37:15] hmm right that's scheme's output syntax wasn't it? 18:37:33 no; lisp 18:37:35 well, it's an extension 18:37:37 ais523: perl uses refcounting? 18:37:42 yes 18:37:47 ehird: scheme \subset lisp 18:37:52 errr 18:37:55 very no 18:38:06 ehird: yes definitely, I've read the helpfiles about it 18:38:07 lisp, in colloquial usage = common lisp and its kin/parents 18:38:12 ais523: I was replying to bsmntbombdood 18:38:13 oh, you're saying no to bsmntbombdood 18:38:25 lisp is a class of languages, containing LISP, common lisp, and scheme, among others 18:38:28 also, Perl has weaken which I think is one of my new favourite useful yet esoteric keywords 18:38:39 bsmntbombdood: so {scheme} \subset lisp 18:38:49 it causes a pointer to not count for the purposes of refcounting, and if the refcount goes down to 0, the pointer immediately becomes undef 18:39:40 or maybe scheme \subset (\union lisp), where \union unions the features of lisps in genera 18:39:41 l 18:39:49 but that might make a tiny bit less sense 18:39:50 dunno 18:39:58 oklopol: a lot less sense 18:40:12 not really, just a bit less. 18:40:54 ais523: python and c have that too, they're just not keywords 18:41:06 *c++ 18:41:23 oklopol: well, C++ needs all memory management to be done by the user, and explicit free 18:41:28 so you could implement weaken by hand, I suppose 18:41:34 how do you do it in python? 18:41:42 weakref's 18:42:02 at least i assume that's what they do, could be something slightly different, since i haven't actually looked at them. 18:42:24 python has del 18:43:09 del is completely unrelated 18:43:33 yeah it is pretty unrelated 18:44:56 -!- Corun has joined. 18:47:04 ais523: well if you just use pointers, they are automatically weak; i'm talking about boost's strong and weak pointers 18:47:28 oklopol: ah 18:47:36 well, they aren't properly automatically weak 18:47:47 because they don't become NULL when the thing they point to is freed 18:48:20 ..they should? 18:48:35 i don't see how that's something inherent to a weak pointer 18:48:49 well, it's one of their more useful properties 18:49:35 i guess the issue is whether the weak/strong distinction is about technicalities, that is, getting refcounting to work, or whether it's something that's actually used for some purpose 18:49:40 for the latter, they need to be nulled 18:49:53 but i think boost's philosophy is the former 18:50:04 ah, the latter is what I was using in my Perl program 18:51:18 i mean without nulling, there is no way to know whether the object has been removed, so the weak pointer will have to have died anyway at some point, or bugs will occur, so they could just as well have been strong, because from their perspective they're always pointing to a living object. 18:51:37 of course, this is kind of a triviality, dunno why i'm explaining it. 18:52:08 pizza time 18:52:09 -> 18:53:11 Poor man's lisp comment: ' 18:53:44 haha 18:53:48 that's like ()! in Underload/Underlambda 18:54:00 it's useful because you don't have to comment out every line of the form 18:54:06 or maybe ''' in Python 18:54:14 is ''' or """ more common, by the way? 18:54:34 both. 18:54:48 the REPL prints out '.' unless the str contains ' in which case it prints "." 18:55:14 ais523: common lisp has somethign specifically for it 18:55:15 #+nil 18:55:19 #+impl, you see 18:55:23 so if you just want something for sbcl you do 18:55:25 #+sbcl form 18:55:33 #+nil obviously comments out the next form 19:06:13 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:07:52 grr 19:07:55 this is rather difficult 19:10:32 -!- M0ny has changed nick to mony. 19:10:35 -!- mony has changed nick to Mony. 19:21:38 http://www.isolani.co.uk/blog/standards/Ie8BlacklistForcingStandardsRenderingOptIn ;; Correct fix: write bot to mark all pages as that. distribute it. microsoft reverts change. profit. 19:22:36 err... what? Microsoft /re-reverted/ that? 19:22:55 nope, they just added an insidious feature that makes it actually neccessary 19:23:09 microsoft 1 humans 0 19:23:10 the more worrying thing there is the automatically updating list 19:23:19 that implies that IE8 sends to Microsoft information on which websites you visit 19:23:22 otherwise, how could it update? 19:23:31 only for the sites you click the button on 19:23:49 still... 19:24:37 anyway, it's been discovered that IE8 has exponential performance on nested absolutely-positioned
s 19:24:54 it seems that 25 nested absolutely-positioned
s is enough to crash most high-spec computers 19:25:11 :DD 19:25:25 heh 19:25:26 I wonder if Microsoft will fix that one? 19:25:42 or if you can just put a website with that markup in, as a logo or something? 19:26:01 if the website makes the computer, people will probably blame it on IE not the website 19:26:03 i hope the IE team goes and does something more suited for their level of intelligence 19:26:06 like, say, playschool 19:26:18 actually, I think the IE team are very intelligent and given stupid orders by management 19:26:24 such as what to prioritise, and what to implement or not 19:26:29 surely they could just follow the orders on a technicality? 19:26:32 how do they sleep at night? 19:28:35 "Despite all the outreach to sites, we saw from the telemetry data that IE8 Beta 2 users still have to use Compatibility View a lot." 19:28:39 why does that scare me a lot? 19:28:46 XD 19:29:28 also, they mention Opera does something similar, although it probably isn't at all similar 19:29:35 that article looks like it's trying to pre-emptively avoid criticism 19:31:13 hmm... http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE8Bugs/ looks interesting 19:35:27 grr 19:35:28 slime 19:35:28 DWIM 19:35:47 ? 19:36:14 can't figure out how to hook into slime to get "tell me when the repl buffer is ready" 19:36:18 to resize it to be smaller 19:36:21 oh 19:36:23 what is slime 19:36:29 superior lisp interaction mode for emacs 19:36:38 it basically imitates the lisp machine editor 19:37:18 -!- olsner has joined. 19:38:36 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:42:08 all the cool kids seem to use emacs fully maximized. 19:42:31 also, does knuth really expect to be alive to write the 7th volume of taocp? 19:43:31 emacs is designed to be fully maximised, I think, as it's meant to be an entire UI not just an editor 19:43:48 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:44:04 gr. 19:48:06 as for that IE8 stuff, I'm wondering about submitting it to Slashdot to give kdawson something else to bash 19:48:09 do you think that's a good idea? 19:48:25 kdawson? 19:48:31 a Slashdot editor 19:48:40 who posts all sorts of anti-Microsoft stories even if they make no sense 19:49:01 haha 19:49:07 when there are loads of legitimate reasons to bash Microsoft, why pick stupid ones? 19:50:08 ehird: http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/02/16/2259257&from=rss was one of the stupider ones recently 19:50:29 "oh no, I cracked Photoshop by replacing a DLL, now it doesn't work, it must be Windows 7 DRM!" 19:51:31 :D 19:51:48 wow, Leopard makes dark windows actually look nice. now I can be a super-leet haxor. 19:52:13 actually, dark windows are popular so as to hurt your eyes less 19:52:21 i don't have crap eyes :D 19:52:22 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:52:26 i wonder where emacs's scroll-like-the-rest-of-my-system-not-a-jumpy-weird-ass-piece-of-crap setting is 20:00:40 ais523: i wonder if my cynicism rubs off on everyone 20:00:48 a bit. 20:05:34 grr 20:05:38 m-xc ustomize is so flaky 20:05:41 why can't it write out regular variables 20:11:25 ais523: oerjan: new vote: I switch to linux or bsd and use a tiling window manager so this isn't a problem. 20:11:54 ehird: "vote"? for what? 20:12:03 I am unable to make decisions :-D 20:12:19 * oerjan votes for xmonad, if only because it's in haskell 20:13:02 * oerjan goes back to IE in the other window 20:15:37 -!- ehird[erc] has joined. 20:15:45 Solution: Use Emacs as OS. 20:15:56 * ehird[erc] in fullscreen mode :P 20:16:55 -!- ehird[erc] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:21:11 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:21:30 I would use emacs if I were an idiot fuckhead moron. 20:21:48 i'm a regular guy who wants to use lisp so I have to be an idiot fuckhead moron 20:21:51 , xah lee 20:22:02 good point, i suppose there's nothing better than slime 20:22:11 because nobody cares enough about lisp to write something better 20:22:26 lament: lisp machine OS, duh. 20:23:13 the screenshots i've seen of them looked quite horrendous 20:23:26 they weren't _pretty_, this was the 80s 20:23:33 but they were efficient, usable and highly reflective 20:23:59 efficient, usable, highly reflective - pick any two 20:24:11 on "modern" slum computers, sure. :) 20:24:39 the reason modern computers suck is not because they don't run lisp on bare metal 20:24:46 agreed 20:25:01 the point is that you need hooks to allow the high-level features 20:25:05 and modern machines, well, don't. 20:25:13 so we get to use C! Joy! 20:29:40 some people also use Joy, C? 20:29:50 :D 20:30:32 mmph I wonder how to center the emacs frame 20:31:23 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:33:16 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:34:20 gr 20:36:28 eek 20:38:33 this should be trivial 20:38:33 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:38:35 :-( 20:39:54 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:42:44 ais523: do you know how/ 20:42:53 in what window manager? 20:43:03 you can set window positions generically in emacs 20:43:09 I've just forgotten how to get the frame's height in pixels 20:43:12 (/width too) 20:43:16 I'm not sure what the elisp command for that is 20:43:24 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:43:28 it's not the sort of thing that programs generally mess with, so I've never had to look it up 20:43:39 is there a shorter noun for "need to pee"? 20:43:50 noun, or adjective? 20:43:51 oklopol: neep 20:43:56 as far as I know, no to both, though 20:44:18 GregorR: i was wrong, it seems computers using vista can shut down due to hardware failures as well. 20:44:55 oklopol: ? 20:45:21 ais523: referring to a conversation GregorR probably doesn't even remember anymore. 20:45:51 ehird: is that a joke, or something urbandictionary just hasn't learned yet? 20:46:10 oklopol: I invented it. go use it 20:46:16 ais523: well by noun i meant noun, but adjective works too. 20:46:23 ais523: what does [[[...]]] around the modeline mean? 20:46:32 it means you're in a triply recursive edit 20:46:41 you can go back to editing in the middle of certain commands 20:46:49 and then pop the edit back to the command when you're done 20:47:04 useful in the middle of a long find/replace operation when you notice something else that needs fixing, for instance 20:47:22 how can I exit the recedits? 20:47:41 I can't remember offhand, maybe C-M-c 20:47:47 or maybe C-] 20:47:51 Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "Cannot return from the debugger in an error") 20:47:55 I know ESC ESC ESC exits a recedit 20:48:03 that gives 20:48:03 Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "Cannot return from the debugger in an error") 20:48:12 without resuming the command that started the recedit 20:49:04 import ant quest ion 20:50:36 aaaaaargh I forgot how to center :< 20:50:50 it's not -(/sh 2)fh 20:50:53 (s=screen,f=frame) 20:50:59 * ehird 's brain is off today 20:51:08 okay ehird let's think logically :| 20:51:13 (fh-sh)/2 20:51:20 i wish you hadn't done that 20:51:21 now Ifeel dumb. 20:51:28 you're not smart enough for lisp. 20:51:32 or (/ (- fh sh) 2) 20:51:34 in Lisp notation 20:54:22 okay, emacs environment all set up. umm, what was I going to write again? 20:54:52 oh look, SBCL's running with 2GB virtual memory. so it definitely does the overcommitting trick 20:55:00 ... wtf it's 32-bit :< 21:03:08 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:14:54 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:15:22 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird|away. 21:38:35 -!- ehird|away has changed nick to ehird. 21:40:03 hi 21:40:23 hi 21:40:27 hi 21:40:34 a 21:40:35 I win 21:40:44 YOU BROKE THE CHAIN 21:46:41 o 21:47:04 oko 21:47:17 okokokokokokookokokokokokoo 21:47:20 okokokokokokokokookoko 21:47:23 okokokokokokokokokookoko 21:47:26 okokokokokokokokokookokokokokokoko 21:47:29 okokokokokokokokookok 21:47:30 kakao 21:47:30 o 21:47:46 oklopol: you should do evaluations in s-k combinator calculus 21:47:49 but with o rather than s 21:48:35 how would you indicate el structure? 21:48:46 ah, good point 21:48:47 Iota, then 21:48:51 with o for * and k for 21:48:53 i 21:49:14 except you can't start or end with a k or have two adjacent k's 21:49:17 okokokokokokokokokookoko 21:49:21 okokokokokokokokokookokookoko 21:49:24 okokookokokokoo 21:49:26 okokokokokokokokoo 21:49:28 okokokokokokokokokooko 21:49:38 okokokokokokokoko 21:49:42 ookokokokokokokoko 21:49:44 hmm 21:49:50 why did i start okoing anyway 21:49:51 oh 21:49:53 i see, 21:49:55 . 21:49:55 have oko be binary numbers 21:49:57 of a godel encoding 21:50:01 of oklotalk 21:52:22 i can't 21:52:25 i need to do algebra 22:00:37 -!- fizzie has quit ("reconfigurationationary restart required"). 22:07:47 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:33:31 hi ais523 22:33:42 hi ehird 22:33:56 -!- chuck has changed nick to chuck|busy. 22:34:59 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 22:41:25 man, the sbcl documentation si refreshing 22:41:40 it's comprehensive and informal and it has tons of places where it says, oh yeah, this sucks, or oh this is a bug 22:50:14 heh #lisp are talking about lispms 22:57:59 I'm downloading a lisp machine environment and emulator! 23:06:07 What's lisp machine code, anyway? 23:06:14 What are the differences with regular lisp? 23:06:49 Slereah_: well, it's not lisp 23:06:56 imagine x86 machine code, and imagine C 23:07:00 -> lisp machine code / lisp 23:07:07 lisp compiles down to llisp machine code 23:09:44 Yes, but like, what are the basic functions? 23:10:03 I hope it's at least RISC, 'cause otherwise, the answer could be long! 23:12:00 Slereah_: you'd have to buy the manual to know exactly, probably 23:12:08 also, there are multiple lisp machines 23:12:16 from difffferent companies 23:13:02 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 23:13:07 Is it something like theorical lisp + lambda + io or something? 23:13:19 Slereah_: it's imperative 23:13:26 :( 23:13:29 it just has special things for bignums, dispatching, functions, gc 23:13:30 etc 23:13:35 Slereah_: umm, lisp is imperative 23:13:43 Is it? 23:13:48 yes. 23:13:53 I mean, it's not purely functional, but still. 23:13:53 Scheme is functional, but lisp is imperative 23:13:59 it has first-class functions 23:14:00 Owait 23:14:01 that doesn't make it functional 23:14:06 That's right. 23:14:11 I don't know lisp :D 23:14:24 I just assume it's somehow similar to scheme 23:14:33 lisp is imperative, but sufficiently functionallish that you can do functional programming in it in a pinch 23:16:30 ais523: Slereah_: http://common-lisp.net/project/bknr/static/lmman/frontpage.html 23:16:34 -!- chuck|busy has changed nick to yourwiki-tech. 23:16:46 mostly a lisp manual, it seems 23:17:03 has assembly stuff 23:17:11 -!- yourwiki-tech has changed nick to chuck|busy. 23:17:18 The first instruction here is a CAR instruction. It has the same format as MOVE: there is a destination and an address. The CAR instruction reads the datum addressed by the address, takes the car of it, and stores the result into the destination. In our example, the first instruction addresses the zeroth argument, and so it computes (car y); then it pushes the result onto the stack. 23:17:27 Contents of address registeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 23:17:27 r 23:21:05 ais523: how much does a working vhdl/verilog environment cost? 23:21:11 -!- chuck|busy has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:21:20 ehird: GHDL you can get for free, but it's just a simulator 23:21:32 does it support everything I'd use? 23:21:37 also, what else would I need but a simulator...? 23:21:41 yes, I think so 23:21:55 it's command-line 23:22:02 I use gtkwave to view simulation output, though 23:22:06 and I know how much you hate gtk 23:22:15 ok, so ... free, is the answer? 23:22:18 what other tools would I need? 23:22:30 you need it, gcc I think, and something to view the output 23:22:34 -!- chuck|busy has joined. 23:22:41 if you're just doing things with assertions and print statements, you need nothing else 23:22:57 if you want to view the internal signals, which is useful when debugging, you need some program to actually show the simulation output 23:23:02 and gtkwave's the only one I know of 23:23:31 oh, ghdl's slightly buggy in that it sometimes accepts broken code, but you probably don't care about that 23:23:31 i thought you said these tools were all highly expensive 23:23:38 ehird: the synthesizers, yes 23:23:43 what do they do? 23:23:45 oh, write to FPGA? 23:23:47 yes 23:23:56 FPGAs are only used for hobbies right? 23:24:00 they all rely on the internal details of the chips, you see, which the manufacturers won't release 23:24:03 as in no real-world chips us ethem 23:24:04 and no, they're used for serious things too 23:24:09 ok. like 23:24:13 no real-world chips use them for the final product 23:24:20 but things like Pentiums are simulated on them 23:24:21 ah 23:25:11 how fast can fpgas go? 23:25:22 insanely fast, some of them 23:25:34 even in my student project at University, I was measuring time in nanoseconds 23:26:27 ais523: and these synths + the fpga chips cost.. 23:26:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has changed nick to Zetro. 23:26:49 I think you can get one of the evaluation packs they market for hobbyists for not a ridiculous amount, although the synth is rather rubbish 23:27:07 define not ridiculous 23:27:19 I'm looking it up now 23:28:21 $189 for an evaluation board and evaluation software for the bottom-of-the range version 23:28:52 ais523: bottom range = crap, I assume 23:28:55 yes 23:29:08 the better evaluation boards, with the same software, cost hundreds to thousands of dollars 23:29:13 and the better software is price on request 23:29:15 yow 23:29:24 yeah I think I'll stick to simulators 23:30:13 i wonder how symbolics EVER made a profit 23:30:53 you may want to look at opencores.org by the way 23:31:08 for example VHDL/Verilog code 23:31:39 most of the VHDL/Verilog code you can buy costs a fortune and requires an NDA before you can touch it, opencores.org is free 23:32:10 bleh 23:32:13 i hate computing 23:32:55 -!- Zetro has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 23:35:02 ehird: by the way, GHDL is what happened when someone modified gcc to make it process VHDL rather than C 23:35:09 it generates executables that run the simulations 23:36:20 -!- ais523 has quit. 2009-02-19: 00:09:57 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 00:12:33 -!- chuck|busy has changed nick to chuck. 00:13:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:20:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:02:41 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:36:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 04:00:58 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:09:49 -!- Slereah has joined. 04:20:24 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:29:44 G'night all 05:30:08 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 07:16:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 07:18:14 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:29:52 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:30:07 -!- oklopol has joined. 07:42:43 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:36 -!- Deewiant has joined. 08:16:09 -!- Judofyr has joined. 08:16:13 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:05:22 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:21:52 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:26:59 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 09:40:36 -!- MizardX has joined. 09:53:34 -!- Mony has joined. 12:11:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:19:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:23:28 IWC :D 12:56:39 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:13:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 13:59:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:59:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:06:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:06:35 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:16:45 -!- ais523 has quit (Connection reset by peer). 14:16:46 -!- ais523_ has joined. 14:19:02 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:19:04 -!- ehird has joined. 14:19:57 hi ais523_ 14:20:01 hi 14:20:02 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 14:20:16 yesterday, I saw something pretty surprising 14:20:22 which was an entirely new failure mode for the Door 14:20:35 that particular Door is a double door, which swings open 14:20:39 one of the halves of it was shut 14:20:52 and the other half was open, waving about back and forth between about 90 and 70 degrees open 14:20:52 :-D 14:20:58 this door is awesome 14:21:01 yes 14:21:16 is it sentient? 14:21:19 I don't know 14:21:26 seems like it to m 14:21:26 e 14:22:18 which is worrying, because normally with doors it's obvious 14:28:04 meanwhile, I'm wondering why the build-dependencies for VirtualBox include a K&R C compiler 14:28:20 because it uses k&r c in parts? 14:28:23 prseumably legacy code 14:28:38 but back in the days of K&R C, people hadn't even thought of virtualisation 14:29:32 how do you exit an error in emacs? 14:29:39 ais523: it'll be auxillary code 14:29:42 not directly related 14:30:09 ehird: emacs errors normally exit automatically 14:30:18 elisp errors 14:30:27 that trigger the debugger 14:30:35 hmm... I don't remember offhand 14:30:45 but try C-], C-M-c, and ESC ESC ESC 14:30:51 those are good at exiting all sorts of things 14:31:05 in particular, ESC ESC ESC is a generic exit-anything code 14:31:12 where it works out dwimness to figure out what you want to exit 14:31:15 ESC ESC ESC: Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "Cannot return from the debugger in an error") 14:31:18 and it's easy to remember 14:31:24 same for c-m-c 14:31:33 c-] works 14:31:34 yay 14:31:47 aha, it's trying to return just one layer 14:31:51 whereas you need to return 2, somehow, to skip over the layer that's erroring 14:32:58 nope 14:33:01 c-] does one-layer 14:33:03 so just c-3 c-] 14:34:17 aha 14:34:18 prefix args 14:34:39 er, doesn't c-3 just repeat 3 times 14:34:48 no 14:34:53 it applies threeness to the following command 14:35:00 most commands interpret that as a repeat, but some don't 14:35:37 for instance, C-3 M-g M-g jumps to line 3 14:35:49 hmm, okay 14:35:55 I just did c-] c] c-] 14:36:06 ais523: who says lisp has to have parens? http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3194/picture2xv0.png 14:36:10 (warning: may cause convulsions) 14:36:50 the best part is th at it's understandable 14:36:54 lispers really do read the indentation 14:37:04 it's a cross between Lisp and Python! 14:37:09 LYTHON 14:38:22 interestingly, the only thing making emacs feel klunky now is the scrollbar behaviour 14:38:28 it CHANGES SIZE depending on where you are 14:38:39 and throws an error if you scroll past the top or bottom... 14:38:51 and the scrolling is jerky 14:38:54 wonder how I can fix that 14:39:48 ehird: it's fixed in the GTK version of Emacs, I think 14:39:55 is it? 14:39:58 not the jerkiness of the scrolling, but the size of the thumb thing 14:40:01 dirty gtk buggers. always getting the good features. 14:40:09 I guess I'll complain to emacs, and get told to get used to it 14:40:13 because they just used gtk scrollbars 14:40:17 heh 14:40:26 presumably the scrolling is jerky because emacs can't render half a line at the top of the screen 14:40:32 they use Carbon scrollbars on OS X, it's just that they do the handling themselves 14:40:44 whyyy can't they just use a native control _occasionally_ 14:40:56 the freaking scrollbar behaviour doesn't have to be 100% identical over every damn system! 14:41:12 emacs is designed for the console, pretty clearly 14:41:26 it doesn't really like being in a graphical interface 14:41:34 It's getting better 14:41:38 btw, does gvim do smooth scrolling? 14:41:40 but it did start life in the console, yes 14:41:45 ais523: not sure 14:41:49 btw, it's not smooth scrolling 14:41:52 smooth scrolling is a scourge 14:41:53 ehird: remember that for ages, Stallman refused to allow backspace to delete backwards in Emacs 14:41:58 (it's just useless eyecandy on scrolls) 14:42:01 what's needed is more precise scrolling 14:42:04 ah 14:42:09 OS X doesn't do smooth scrolling, but scrolling goes smoothly anyway 14:42:14 heh 14:42:19 because a scroll just moves a little, and the scrollwheel is very sensitive 14:42:29 [14:41:53] ehird: remember that for ages, Stallman refused to allow backspace to delete backwards in Emacs 14:42:32 really/ 14:42:33 why?! 14:42:39 ehird: because it couldn't be distinguished from control-h 14:42:44 >_< 14:42:49 can't believe they didn't sack that guy earlier. 14:43:04 the FAQ back then had an entry for people who wanted backspace to delete backwards, rather than delete 14:43:21 the entry suggested changing your login script (the equivalent of bashrc) to map delete-backwards to delete not backspace 14:43:36 I tried to find it recently, but couldn't 14:43:37 wow 14:43:41 secret to emacs not being a sore thumb #32: (setq ring-bell-function (lambda ())) 14:43:51 emacs has not _once_ beeped usefully for me 14:44:03 either it's popped up a message in an emacs-window to tell me about something important, 14:44:08 or it's just bothering me about stupid stuff in the minibuffer 14:44:23 like, YOU SCROLLED PAST THE TOP OF THE DOCUMENT. LET ME RAPE YOUR EARS WITH MY BEEP/ 14:44:24 ehird: heh, I've set visible-bell on my emacs 14:44:24 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:44:39 YOU SCROLLED PAST THE TOP OF THE DOCUMENT. LET ME TRIGGER YOUR EPILEPSY 14:44:50 I have visible-bell everywhere I can on this system, the beep on this laptop is really annoying 14:45:04 also, emacs' visible bell is pretty unobtrusive, although noticeable 14:45:07 emacs beeps using the os x system beep, except if you keep scrolling up it retriggers it for every single scroll 14:45:16 so it's an audial mudbath of hate 14:46:04 also, I just realised that emacs can only display full lines, you're right 14:46:05 that's so stupid 14:46:08 oh by the way, for historical reasons, in order to scroll to a particular location using the scrollbar in traditional Emacs scrolling, you have to scroll with the middle mouse button 14:46:23 emacs proposal: (setq modern t) 14:46:32 makes emacs not be hopelessly 70s. 14:46:35 I think that's fixed in pretty much every port but the tty version to work as expected on the system, though 14:46:45 • rgr_ didnt even know emacs had scroll bars ... 14:47:10 do you think he's trying to be all 1337 by saying he doesn't need scrollbars, or d'you think he's just blind? :P 14:47:59 emacs -nw doesn't have scrollbars 14:48:05 and that's the common version to use over ssh or whatever 14:48:14 I am the psychotherapist. Please, describe your problems. Each time you are finished talking, type RET twice. emacs can't get scrollbars right Emacs? Hah! I would appreciate it if you would continue. 14:48:21 Even the psychotherapist hates emacs. 14:51:43 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7yi1m/while_1_if_1_1_printfcosmic_ray_detectedn/c07rfy6 14:51:45 BITS FLIPPIN' 14:55:56 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:07:38 http://www.dragonflybsd.org/release22/ 15:14:07 ais523: can you try and explain to me why people use things like gnus 15:14:07 o 15:14:12 oklopolko 15:14:38 ehird: no, I tried to use gnus and didn't understand it either 15:14:50 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:14:57 i get that emacs kind of morphs into a ui 15:15:03 I just don't get why you would use it that way 15:15:04 I mean 15:15:11 I can't think of any way in which gnus is better than another mail client 15:15:27 emacs just makes applications suck more because it's not made with anything but editing in mind 15:17:10 however 15:17:25 the author of gnus appears to be partially responsible for modern cd ripper/media library programs 15:17:28 ... with Emacs. 15:17:29 http://quimby.gnus.org/jukebox/jukebox.html 15:17:44 "Insane? Yes." yes, how very insane :P 15:18:58 "When I wrote the Emacs music interface ten years ago (started back in Octuber 1997, apparently), this all seemed a bit far-fetched. "Oooh. Music on a computer. Aaah." These days it's all trivial beyond beliefe. Just goes to show. I've continued fiddling with the Emacs music interface (bigger screen, remote control, last.fm interface, etc), and I doubt I'll ever succumbed to one of those new-fangled pointy-clicky interfaces. So there." 15:20:16 Mighty Mouse Scrolling 15:20:17 By default the scrolling with the Mighty Mouse is very jerky. The following setting feel more reasonable: 15:20:17 (setq mouse-wheel-scroll-amount '(0.01)) 15:20:20 ????? :DD 15:20:45 oh my god it works 15:20:47 ehird: what confuses me more is that that's written with AnMaster grammar 15:21:00 ais523: just one letter missing 15:21:01 s/feel/feels/ 15:21:04 ais523, ? 15:21:09 yes, but that's a very AnMaster grammar mistake to make 15:21:10 a simple typo, probably, rather than broken grammar deluxe 15:21:23 AnMaster's grammar is more or less perfect except for that sort of thing 15:21:31 ais523, which line? 15:21:33 that sort of thing is rather common... 15:21:37 "The following setting feel more reasonable:" 15:21:42 you didn't write that, but it reminded me of you 15:21:46 feels 15:21:48 should be that 15:21:52 whoooooooooosh 15:21:53 yes 15:22:17 hrmph, c-h f is function docs, where are var docs 15:22:28 c-h a I think 15:22:36 that has functions and commands and vars, etc 15:22:54 nope 15:22:56 just commands 15:23:05 c-h v? 15:23:13 yep 15:23:18 btw, emacs uses utf-8 by default right? 15:23:31 ais523, also the reasons I make that sort of typos are primarily 1) cold fingers 2) The S-key for some reason has higher friction on this old (cheap) keyboard 15:23:44 ah, ok 15:23:45 god, you live in freaking sweden 15:23:51 surely you guys have mastered not being cold?! 15:24:01 ehird, yes, that is why I have cold fingers... it is so cold here :/ 15:24:17 agh why does scrolling in emacs move the point 15:24:18 even indoors it tend to be quite cold 15:24:20 that is so stupid 15:24:26 ehird: because point's always onscreen 15:24:30 feature 15:24:32 Well it shouldn't be ;_; 15:24:35 emacs is a console app, it has to put the cursor somewhere 15:24:41 I want to look at another part of the document then go back to editing 15:24:49 ehird: C-x 2, then 15:24:51 yes, I know I can push the point 15:25:06 or I often use the mark for that 15:25:17 put the mark where I want to look at, and point where I'm editing 15:25:21 and C-x C-x to swap 15:26:21 mouse-wheel-progressive-speed is a variable defined in `mwheel.el'. Its value is t 15:26:25 see, THIS is the stupidity 15:26:27 * ehird disabllllllllle 15:26:33 oh? I like it 15:26:48 I like being more precise, plus other apps don't do that. 15:26:50 incidentally, I used to use an older version of emacs without mouse-scroll capability, and implemented it myself 15:27:14 the progressive-speed thing was one big improvement of the actual emacs version over my home-brew 15:27:21 well, admittedly other apps do do something similar 15:27:27 but the effect is far less 15:27:29 you just scroll close to where you're aiming, wait a bit for the timer to reset, and scroll accurately 15:27:31 so it's closer when it's off 15:27:41 ais523: or I could just scroll to where I want 15:29:28 (setq mouse-wheel-scroll-amount '(0.05)) (setq mouse-wheel-progressive-speed nil) 15:29:29 perfect 15:29:46 I know it's perfect because I compared it with a native app :P 15:34:24 oh, people still print things 15:34:26 I forgot. 15:34:58 even I do sometimes, to hand coursework in 15:35:10 or to make physical objects for playing games with 15:35:15 yeah, it's still rather surprising though 15:35:22 i'm justlike, oh, wow 15:36:39 slightly more dramatic is that I'm gradually forgetting how to write 15:36:44 I still write for exams and to fill in forms 15:36:49 but for nearly everything else I type 15:36:57 My handwriting looks similar to that of a 7 year olds. 15:38:09 common lisp is great 15:38:24 it might not be as elegant as scheme but it's still lisp, and SBCL is a great compiler 15:38:38 really fast and the error messsages are awesome (I'm saying this because it just gave me a really helpful one) 15:38:45 #esoteric would probably invent uncommon lisp 15:40:27 :D 15:43:26 heh, M-x has been replaced by C-h w quite a lot for me 15:55:33 -!- Slereah has joined. 16:02:43 [16:02:22] i'd like to use emacs (amongst other things) as desktop-publishing platform to post blog entries (possibly in reST markup via metaweblog (atom) to (django-powered) blog sites...any idea how to do it? 16:03:36 is he a troll? 16:03:44 no, just very crazy 16:04:18 on its own, those technologies are rather mundane; such a comprehensive stack reminds me of Aristotle Pagaltzis and Tim Bray except even crazier 16:05:33 holy crap, some code I stole has been stolen :-D 16:05:36 I know because of the comment. 16:07:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:07:27 :DDD 16:07:30 that's funny 16:07:38 (it's been stolen into a semi-popular thang) 16:07:42 where? 16:08:01 this paste: http://pastie.textmate.org/pastes/30372, note the author and the comment, 16:08:04 ---> 16:08:05 http://github.com/mojombo/jekyll/blob/d0f46c2120852d826937a97d3241088d8dfce43d/lib/jekyll/core_ext.rb 16:08:51 -!- jix has joined. 16:18:12 * ehird drafts up lisp machine instruction set 16:36:25 MAKELIST, APPEND, APPLY, LITERAL x :) 16:37:07 hf implementing that in a cpu and doing useful ops :D 16:38:00 would need a few more stack operators... 16:38:14 that's not even a good basis for a lisp machine 16:38:26 kinda 16:39:18 -!- ehird has set topic: Note that write is not the opposite of "read". Unfortunately. http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 16:39:23 first topic change in 70 years 16:39:34 -!- ehird has set topic: Note that write is _not_ the opposite of "read". Unfortunately. http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 16:39:46 been a while since I last toughed lisp... 16:42:14 lambda should be renamed to fun 16:42:16 1. lambdas are fun 16:42:18 2. defun 16:42:25 3. lambdas are fun 16:42:52 unlambda is unfun :( 16:43:56 CL-USER> (+ (values 1 2 3)) 1 16:43:59 This saddens me. 16:56:38 * ehird has emacs set up nicely for lisp now 16:56:47 whenever I open a lisp file, a SLIME connection to my sbcl opens below 17:00:13 holy crap 17:00:19 slime highlighted my division by zero in a function 17:00:22 when c onstant folding 17:05:53 MizardX: are you sure you don't want cXr? 17:06:12 also, cons? :P 17:06:16 also, jumps? 17:06:17 ? 17:06:17 etc 17:06:49 oklopol: cXr? 17:07:11 * ehird writes introduct 17:07:12 ehird: oh i assumed append was noobglish for cons 17:07:16 MizardX: car, cdr, etc 17:07:19 oklopol: it probably was. 17:07:40 well may not have been since there's makelist 17:07:48 isn't makelist+append kinda cons 17:08:18 (i mean loosely isomorphing) 17:09:20 been a long while since I last touched lisp, so I didn't concider all aspects 17:10:00 *cons-ider, you have like a cons-allergy or something? 17:10:33 makelist+append -> cons+car+cdr would be better 17:12:45 CL-USER> (introduct '(((s k) s) k)) ((((^ X (^ Y (^ Z ((X Z) (Y Z))))) (^ X (^ Y X))) (^ X (^ Y (^ Z ((X Z) (Y Z)))))) (^ X (^ Y X))) 17:12:49 Humble beginnings. 17:27:14 ooh 17:27:26 ais523: MizardX: oklopol: others: i just found an old esolang of mine :D I like it http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/CRTL 17:27:43 ("say hello"->x)->("Hello, "~x~"!"); 17:27:43 "thingy"->"wor"; 17:27:43 "mabob"->"ld"; 17:27:43 "say hello"->"thingymabob" 17:27:48 prints hello world 17:28:20 actually that could break 17:28:23 the last could rewrite the first 17:28:24 It hink 17:28:25 maybe 17:29:39 (("fib"->a)->b)->b~"|"~a~b; 17:29:39 a~"|"~b->(("fib"->a)->b); 17:29:39 ("fib"->"1")->"1" 17:29:47 oklopol: that's one fine fib you wrote there 17:30:10 ehird: do you have an interp? 17:30:22 nope. I could write one 17:30:28 and is it TC? I suspect yes, for the same reason as Thue 17:30:41 yeah 17:30:46 almost certainly 17:30:47 hmm 17:30:50 oklopol's fib doesn't output a newline 17:31:21 easily fixable 17:31:50 (("fib"->a)->(b~" 17:31:51 "))->b~"|"~a~b~" 17:31:51 "; 17:31:51 a~"|"~b->(("fib"->a)->b); 17:31:52 ("fib"->"1")->"1 17:31:52 " 17:31:56 would be nicer with \n, of course :P 17:32:11 -!- ais523 has quit. 17:49:28 Balanced binary: 17:49:31 0 = -1, 1 = 1. 17:52:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:52:49 -!- dbc has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:54:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:54:45 -!- dbc has joined. 17:57:02 i looked at CRTL quite recently on a random esotrip. 17:57:11 o 17:57:13 didjoo like it 17:58:03 at least it looks very nice. i didn't give it that much thought :) 17:58:16 esotrips are more about clicking the random button than actually reading the pages. 18:03:09 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 18:05:25 14:56:11 GregorR: sometimes i want to say two things at once to make the first one impossible to comment on 18:05:25 14:56:23 but indeeed 18:05:25 14:56:32 it sometimes looks wronglied. 18:05:29 oklopol is hilarious 18:05:46 oklopol: surelyurely you know it because you wrote the fibbb 18:06:02 oh man oklopol you used to be a noob 18:06:05 06.12.06:00:39:12 has anyone done quicksort in brainfuck? 18:06:05 06.12.06:01:03:51 :DD 18:06:05 06.12.06:01:24:47 true, but i've been making this string parser as a wimpmode for it, stacks are as easy to use with it as in ... languages they are easy to use :D 18:06:05 06.12.06:01:29:59 eh... bad idea you say? :D 18:06:12 06.12.06:01:31:35 well, equally fun, stupid or not :) 18:06:16 06.12.06:01:31:54 yes, this is prolly the last thing i do with it :) 18:06:17 06.12.06:01:32:38 never done intercal :\ 18:06:17 06.12.06:01:32:52 maybe today 18:06:40 ehird: i know it, but i don't remember the details. 18:07:01 "true, but i've been making this string parser as a wimpmode for it, stacks are as easy to use with it as in ... languages they are easy to use :D" i cannot parse this 18:07:06 what does this retard mean? 18:07:16 oh 18:07:21 you were making a wimpmode for brainfuck 18:07:22 languages in which 18:07:24 yeah 18:07:26 i was 18:07:32 man you were a failure 18:07:32 do you know that 18:07:33 :| 18:07:52 dunno 18:09:04 i've made a wimpmode in my later years too 18:09:11 although it was considerably more interesting 18:09:17 oklopol: That's a totally retarded idea CATS ARE FLUFFY 18:09:34 14:56:58 rice: awesome puppy 18:09:34 14:57:00 book 18:09:44 14:57:33 (i actually wrote 'puppy' instead of 'book', although i have to admit i realized it a bit before i pressed return, but had to say it anyway) 18:09:56 that c++ project i was describing there was very much like err... pebble 18:10:08 err 18:10:12 it's not pebble 18:10:14 is it pebble? 18:10:20 i'm pretty senile today. 18:10:21 xD 18:10:32 that pikhq's things 18:10:34 *thing 18:11:15 anyway it was just stuff you can directly compile to brainfuck context-insensitively 18:11:34 so yeah i was a noober 18:12:23 although i did get considerably more stuff done ofc 18:12:53 err 18:13:19 rice: awesome puppy <<< okay awesome book, nice correction, but "rice"? 18:13:47 rice=me 18:13:50 i ownz that nik 18:14:00 it made no sense in context either btw 18:14:06 :D 18:14:26 and right it's your nick, thought that was at GregorR 18:14:35 what book? 18:14:39 none 18:14:42 it was completely out of context 18:15:15 :D 18:15:21 am i awesome or what 18:16:06 i often read #esoteric logs and just laugh at my own jokes 18:16:27 i often read #esoteric logs and just laugh at oklopol's jokes 18:16:28 :| 18:16:32 :| 18:16:33 because I secretly want to marry him 18:16:33 :| 18:16:45 yeah, marrying me would be so awesome 18:16:56 if you love yourself so much WHY DON'T YOU GO MARRY YOURSELF 18:16:57 xD 18:17:14 that was so outta blue :DDDDDDDDDDDDD 18:20:11 so oklopol is gay marriage legal in finlander 18:21:11 i think we have that registered couple thing or something. 18:22:17 like legal benefits, but different term 18:22:25 but fizzie might know better 18:22:26 or Deewiant 18:22:55 i don't exactly follow this stuff, the whole marriage thing never interested me. 18:23:09 i mean for any kind of sexualities 18:23:22 except for marrying ridiculous stuff 18:23:24 like chairs 18:23:26 that would be awesome 18:23:27 ofc 18:24:03 oklopol, I'm a chair 18:24:05 Let's marry. 18:25:44 i think i've heard something about the president being the one who grants the right for ppl under 15 to get married 18:25:57 that would pretty much be her only duty 18:27:41 lol wut 18:28:44 my acronyms and interrogative pronouns exactly 18:29:26 oklopol: you know how you keep searching for the semantics of computation itself 18:29:31 oklopol: search for the data structure of computation itself. 18:29:35 that would be like 10x cooler. 18:29:50 ofc, computation is just the operation that naturally flows from the data structure of computation. 18:30:30 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:31:40 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:31:55 oklopol: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p632626363.txt 18:31:57 do you have an interp 18:32:18 yes 18:32:23 for that usbset 18:32:25 *subset 18:32:31 give give give omg 18:32:38 :o 18:32:44 but but i don't know where it is atm 18:32:48 FINDDIT 18:32:53 :3 18:33:00 not now :< 18:33:27 i have tons to do, and i'm going to start doing it right after i've taken this crap i'm taking atm 19:13:16 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 19:24:48 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:26:02 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 19:36:28 -!- impomatic has joined. 19:36:43 Hi :-) 19:39:02 hi 19:41:08 Anything interesting new this week? :-) 19:41:12 nope 19:41:24 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:50:01 -!- Hiato has joined. 20:15:38 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:19:24 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:31:22 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird|away. 20:43:07 lambda should be renamed to fun 20:43:17 it is in ML 20:44:18 er, Ocaml 20:44:28 SML has fn 20:44:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_function 20:47:08 hm, that's actually the only example on that page 20:54:11 oklopol, I'm a chair 20:54:17 chair of oklopology 21:30:01 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:40:30 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 21:51:48 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:04:49 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:19:16 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 22:38:58 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1"). 22:42:02 -!- Corun has joined. 22:52:00 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 22:55:24 -!- ehird|away has changed nick to ehird. 22:55:39 [20:43:17] it is in ML 22:55:40 ino 22:58:05 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ino_(Greek_mythology) 22:58:25 that template really needs to be moved... 22:59:33 * oerjan does so. 23:13:28 -!- MizardX- has joined. 23:15:00 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:15:03 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 23:25:11 "You're wife just doesn't get it. She's what we called normies (just a joke ha ha)" 23:25:17 if only you had a brain. 23:29:47 you could wile away the hours. 23:30:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 23:31:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 23:32:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 23:35:27 oerjan: http://www.cjohansen.no/en/browsers/norway_tells_ie6_users_to_shape_up 23:35:29 your country 23:35:30 is amazing 23:35:31 <3 23:35:32 thank you 23:35:52 you're welcome 23:36:03 can I move to norway 23:36:45 yes, if you get work. 23:37:24 norway is for most purposes in the common market 23:37:26 oerjan I'll look after your swatter :-| 23:41:45 actually there are restrictions on how much you can work at your age, i'm sure. 23:41:57 I'll just work on the swatter a little. For a very modest fee 23:43:18 there's a _lot_ of bureaucracy to hire people here though. or so i've heard. 23:44:09 although i'm not sure if it's worse or better than the UK 23:51:26 09:11:33 TINEBT (This is not Emacs, but TINEBT) 23:51:28 hahaaha i like it 23:51:55 XINEBACEOX is not Emacs, but a copy of the expansion of X 23:51:58 xinebaceox XD 23:52:59 FINGER is not genuine Emacs really 23:53:16 :D 23:53:47 So SWINE is not Emacs? 23:53:51 er wait 23:53:57 darn 23:54:00 fail 23:54:32 09:23:17 CITRORI - CITRORI is the result of running itself 23:54:53 ah. 23:55:34 THISACRONYMSTARTSWITHT 23:55:35 err 23:55:42 disregard that 23:56:45 TIARA is a recursive acronym, iirc 23:57:14 This haughty infidel says: "a cross only - never you must stray to a roaring tessellation saying 'What is this... holy! THISACRONYMSTARTSWITH!'" 23:57:21 ... 23:57:23 This haughty infidel says: "a cross only - never you must stray to a roaring tessellation saying 'What is this... holy! THISACRONYMSTARTSWITHAT!'" 23:57:55 oerjan: discuss. 23:57:58 some bad corners in there 23:58:00 wut 23:58:15 the first R and the last A 23:58:33 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:58:41 oerjan: excuse me? 23:58:56 hmm 23:58:59 it's actually thisaconymstartswitht 23:59:41 oerjan: 23:59:42 This haughty infidel says a cross revealed "O, never you must stray to a 23:59:42 roaring tessellation saying 'What is this... holy ass! THISACRONYMSTARTSWITHAT!'" 2009-02-20: 00:00:24 better 00:10:45 POOP ovulates over POOP 00:15:34 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:15:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("godnatt"). 00:19:38 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 00:21:02 -!- oklopol has joined. 00:22:37 -!- MizardX- has joined. 00:26:16 -!- MizardX has quit (Connection reset by peer). 00:26:20 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 00:29:12 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 00:34:22 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:35:15 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/LISP_machine.jpg so pretty the logo is just <33 00:36:00 Except some idiot put a big piece of tape on it! 00:36:16 "I must hide that dong I drew on the Lisp machine!" 00:36:18 Slereah: lol wut 00:37:26 knowing MIT, there probably *was* a dong there 00:38:09 even dongs cannot decrease a lisp machine's amazingosity 00:38:41 What if I covered it in dongs? 00:39:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_%C4%91%E1%BB%93ng 00:39:40 ... it'd be rich! 00:39:48 :D 00:39:58 8===========(lambda (x) (x x)) 00:40:13 infinite dong 00:40:18 Although really, the dong is worthless, IIT 00:40:20 IIRC 00:40:56 second lowest valued currency 00:41:48 although not so unstable, at least before the crisis 00:41:55 vietnam is a fascinating place 00:42:01 i went to a Pho, and got mild food poisoning 00:42:26 hm zimbabwe dollar moved down, used to be first 00:42:37 the dong has bad inflation 00:43:33 yeah but nothing like the ZWD 00:43:34 kekeke ^__^ 00:43:45 Shush oerjan, you ruined the joke 00:45:36 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 00:48:14 13:45:02 bah why are revision controlsystems always mutable? 00:48:14 13:45:04 :( 00:48:14 13:45:09 filesystems should never modify data! 00:48:14 13:47:53 oh well, MINE will be an immutable, garbage-collected filesystem database! :D 00:48:17 fuck yeah, go for it ehird! 00:48:18 wait, shit. 00:48:32 ehird: you're ehird 00:48:38 i know :( 00:49:08 well, sucks to be you, I guess 00:49:15 18:59:09 i'm sad 00:49:15 18:59:25 I just found two languages which are nearly Identical to my dream language 00:49:16 how sad 00:49:44 :D 00:50:15 where's that 00:50:23 08.02.03, logs 00:50:25 b:4>@[n;&0n=n:+/_sqr 50{c+(-/x*x;2*/x)}/c:+,/(-1.5+2*(!w)%w),/:\:-1+2*(!w)%w:200;:;4];`mandel.pbm 6:"P4\n",(5:2#w),"\n",_ci 2_sv'-1 8#,/+(2#w)#b 00:50:40 noise-line 00:50:59 looks like j. 00:51:03 it's k 00:51:09 mandelbrot set 00:51:22 beat that in j oklopol :P 00:51:24 `mandel.pbm <<< orly :P 00:51:35 :P 00:51:36 ehird: i doubt i will. 00:52:00 www.kx.com/a/k/examples/bell.k <- i love the commenting style 00:52:18 at least now, 12/19 of my math exercises for tomorrow done 00:52:37 that means i will probably get to sleep for about 0 hours. 00:52:57 it will be nice. 00:53:09 http://kx.com/a/k/examples/read.k i also love this 00:53:12 qrrrrrrtrrrrrsrr 00:53:15 rrrrrrrtrrrrrsrr 00:53:18 actual code :DD 00:55:48 oklopol: now just be happy you don't have 20 exercises. then you would have to sleep for negative hours. 00:55:53 WTF is a cost of typing? 00:56:36 2 cents a keypress. 00:56:55 the original j interp is fucked up 00:56:55 1,2,3+1,2,3 00:56:55 5 00:56:56 1 2 4 2 3 00:57:23 http://www.farmingdale.edu/enewsfiles/Teresa_Flyer.pdf 01:01:08 they could not afford the cost of printing so they had to use typing instead. which is very slow, especially for the pictures which are really ASCII art using a very tiny typewriter font. 01:01:58 :DD 01:02:10 they save on costs for the pictures by only using tiny pygmy child laborers 01:15:02 The sum function in LMR assembly, prototype one. 01:15:03 sum: jnil RA, end 01:15:03 car RA, R1 01:15:03 cdr RA, R2 01:15:03 push [R2], RA 01:15:03 call sum, 1 01:15:05 add [R1], [RR], RR 01:15:07 ret 01:15:09 end: push 0, RR 01:15:11 ret 01:17:39 discuss. 01:24:26 what does "push [R2], RA" do? 01:24:48 and what does the 1 in "call sum, 1" mean? 01:24:58 pushes the contents of the R2 register to the RA stack/register 01:25:01 and function argument count 01:27:27 sum: jnil RA, end -- define label 'sum'; jump to end if RA is nil 01:27:39 ah. not tail recursive? 01:27:43 MizardX: err, should be [RA] 01:27:58 car RA, R1 -- copy head of RA to R1 01:28:02 yah 01:28:08 not copy 01:28:09 put 01:28:11 cdr = pput tail, ofc 01:28:16 push [R2], RA 01:28:22 push the value in R2 to RA (Register: Arguments) 01:28:26 call sum with 1 argument 01:28:38 add the value in R1 and the value in RR (Register: Return), putting the result in RR 01:28:39 return 01:28:41 end: 01:28:43 push 0 to RR 01:28:44 return 01:29:02 voila, 9-instruction list summation 01:29:55 ah. not tail recursive? 01:30:10 yeah. 01:30:15 you could easily make it tail recursive. 01:34:18 sum: push 0, RR 01:34:18 loop: jnil RA, end car RA, R1 cdr RA, RA add [R1], [RR], RR jump loop 01:34:18 end: ret 01:34:28 F**K 01:34:33 jump? fuck jump. 01:34:36 there's a tailcall instruction. 01:35:35 darn irssi joining lines 01:36:04 oerjan: exactly what I was writing... :P 01:36:13 except the line breaks 01:36:43 oh i _wrote_ the line breaks. they just didn't show up :( 01:36:49 no jump :P 01:36:51 well, jump exists 01:36:52 but phoo 01:37:13 ah, I used 'jmp' instead of 'jump' :) 01:38:32 oh well whatever has the same effect... 01:39:15 should be some complement to "jnil"... maybe "jnn"? 01:41:55 jcons? 02:07:20 what's your favorite homonym of "hair"? 02:10:55 * oerjan isn't actually sure there are any 02:12:29 oh wiktionary lists "hare" 02:16:56 Hare dryer 02:29:49 a hary scheme if i ever saw one 02:30:10 also, hare-brained 02:33:34 Hm. 02:33:37 Hare scheme 02:33:48 (lambda x) (xx) rabbit 02:34:33 excellent for fibonacci 02:37:01 although it contains a lot of easter eggs 02:37:41 oerjan : You just won an internet 02:38:19 i did? 02:38:20 -!- Slereah has set topic: Hare Scheme : perfect for Fibonacci | http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 02:40:02 although the programs tend to be long, as it's hard to avoid duplication 02:42:03 but extremely fast 02:42:31 I think you can only do it in punch cards, though 02:42:40 ? 02:42:41 Because you need RABBITS 02:43:01 i'm sure unicode solves that problem. 02:43:03 (You know, like INTERCAL's "+.) 02:43:18 Does Unicode have rabbits though? 02:43:24 Can't think of a symbol like that 02:44:03 there are some chinese characters for it at least 02:45:10 Which ones though! 02:45:56 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-variant 02:46:36 That reminds me of the two unicode's K 02:46:45 The one for k and the one for Kelvin 02:46:55 They had to think hard about how to make them different 02:47:27 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 02:47:36 huh? why? isn't kelvin just an ordinary capital K? 02:47:36 [03:46:16] That reminds me of the two unicode's K 02:47:37 [03:46:22] The one for k and the one for Kelvin 02:47:37 [03:46:34] They had to think hard about how to make them different 02:47:37 [03:46:57] * Disconnected 02:47:38 ffffffff 02:48:04 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin#The_special_Unicode_kelvin_character 02:53:26 ...WHY? 02:54:02 Because those people are paid to do work, I assume 02:54:11 So they have to find something to work about 02:55:40 probably due to the principle of embedding every previous character set... the article mentions CJK charsets having it 02:56:03 also, good night 02:56:05 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 03:06:38 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:29:51 -!- MizardX- has joined. 04:30:00 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:30:19 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 05:25:12 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 05:26:30 Hare Scheme? oh dear. 05:28:01 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:28:16 -!- oklopol has joined. 05:30:10 oko 05:34:19 morning 05:34:25 morning :) 05:34:34 :--) 05:34:46 O_O; 05:38:33 the guy who does lispcast sounds like a schlump. 05:46:12 i'm tired. 05:57:23 so, i think i'm gonna zombie it up to the unis now 05:58:04 maybe take a little nap when i get there 05:58:08 like, 6 hours 05:58:33 ~~> 06:00:01 * Sgeo got to satisfy a 5 year old l'esprit d'escalier today 06:13:05 G'night all 06:13:34 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:19:05 -!- MizardX- has joined. 07:20:57 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:21:03 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:22:42 -!- sebbu has joined. 08:38:15 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:25:12 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:29:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 09:56:39 -!- Mony has joined. 10:41:56 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 11:45:12 -!- Corun has joined. 11:56:18 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 11:56:30 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 12:04:28 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:19:02 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:29:17 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:44:28 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 13:14:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:37:07 -!- jix has joined. 14:00:56 -!- Hiato has joined. 14:01:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:07:47 * Sgeo got to satisfy a 5 year old l'esprit d'escalier today 14:07:54 Darn, he's left 14:08:08 before knowing what that meant, that sounded pretty perverted. 14:09:21 I was going to comment how that doesn't apply as much on irc, but then i noticed Sgeo had left 14:09:56 :D 14:10:19 and then i realized that actually made it perfect... 14:10:28 oh it was not a pun originally? 14:10:42 well not a pun 14:10:56 i think we use "pun" too broadly. 14:11:06 hah 14:11:39 well the realization happened somewhere between brain and keyboard, so yes and no 14:12:18 and yeah it sounded pretty perverted to me too 14:14:24 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:14:35 -!- oklopol has joined. 14:42:56 -!- Mony has joined. 14:54:53 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 14:59:43 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:59:43 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 15:32:34 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:33:48 heh valgrind just told me to report a bug 15:34:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:40:58 The memory debugger? 15:42:33 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird|away. 15:42:40 * Sgeo got to satisfy a 5 year old l'esprit d'escalier today 15:42:46 Sexual indeed. 15:42:50 -!- ehird|away has changed nick to ehird. 15:42:55 Fuck this client and its away hadling 15:43:53 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'esprit_de_l'escalier argh 15:43:55 I get that all the time 15:43:58 my brain is too slow 15:44:05 must... work on... cybernetic... implants... 15:44:45 yeah, then in the future, we can all be several microseconds late instead... 15:44:55 bah. 15:44:59 time travel. 15:45:48 same problem, really: time would just grind to a halt as everyone reverses it constantly... 15:46:07 it'd be concurrent time travel 15:46:10 possibly this has already happened, of course. 15:46:21 ha 15:46:24 time used to be a lot faster 15:46:26 :^) 15:51:14 The first few billion years... 16:08:43 yeah they just took six days *duck* 16:20:43 MizardX, yes 16:21:25 memcheck: the 'impossible' happened: 16:21:26 unhandled syscall 16:21:35 [long backtrace] 16:21:47 Note: see also the FAQ.txt in the source distribution. 16:21:47 It contains workarounds to several common problems. 16:21:47 If that doesn't help, please report this bug to: www.valgrind.org 16:21:47 In the bug report, send all the above text, the valgrind 16:21:47 version, and what Linux distro you are using. Thanks. 16:28:29 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:33:16 Valid C: 16:33:17 Main pr "%i",2+2); nl end NB Prints 4 16:35:18 ehird, is that the whole file? 16:35:39 No, not entirely. But the only other thing is an #include. 16:35:39 nah, can't be... 16:35:41 ah 16:35:51 ehird, what header does it include? 16:36:07 one with strange defines I guess 16:36:18 The full program: 16:36:19 #include"omg.h" 16:36:19 Main pr "%i",2+2); nl end NB Prints 4 16:36:24 The header: 16:36:25 #include 16:36:25 #define NB // 16:36:25 #define equ { 16:36:25 #define end return 0;} 16:36:27 #define Main int main(void){ 16:36:27 #define pr printf( 16:36:29 #define nl putchar('\n'); 16:36:31 (Yes, I know equ isn't used in it) 16:36:32 heh indeed... :D 16:36:34 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:38:01 ehird, while certainly confusing if you didn't see the header, it wouldn't win IOCCC ;P 16:38:12 did you write that C code btw? 16:38:25 Yeah. I was trying to get c to look like K and similar langs 16:38:36 didn't do too well, oh well 16:44:12 mhm 16:44:39 ehird, you could write some array operations in preprocessor maybe? 16:44:45 unlikely 16:45:24 oh? Well I guess so using standard C, but GCC has some rather useful extensions to the preprocessor that maybe would be useful to (ab)use 16:46:20 "statement expressions" was one of them (not a preprocessor feature, but makes complex macros a lot easier to write) 16:46:52 and no, that wouldn't be portable :) 16:47:00 portability is for squares 16:47:31 in a case like this, you do have a point 16:49:41 ehird, possibly (though I'm not sure, and haven't tested) you could avoid () by something like this: 16:50:04 #define mymacro(arg) /* stuff here */ 16:50:10 #define foo ( 16:50:14 #define bar ) 16:50:19 cheating 16:50:29 you need to eliminate delimiters 16:50:30 Main mymacro foo 12 bar 16:50:39 ehird, hm ok, you can include some in the macros 16:50:46 like: 16:50:54 #define ___mymacro(arg) /* stuff here */ 16:51:04 yes 16:51:04 #define mymacro ___mymacro( 16:51:17 then you need to include the matching ) somewhere 16:52:17 see: pr 16:52:21 I did that 16:53:27 yes indeed 16:53:33 but you didn't do anything for ); 16:53:58 yeah 16:54:08 the unbalanced paren looked K-y 16:54:09 :P 16:54:13 ah ok 16:54:23 don't know K well enough 16:54:48 (read: I don't know it at all, apart from seeing some K code once or twice) 16:55:07 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 16:55:38 ehird, if you really want to do this I would suggest going for m4 or such instead of cpp 16:55:50 that's cheating 16:55:54 In what order is #defines evaluated? If I have two defines that refer to eachother, which will be the result? 16:55:55 true 16:56:11 MizardX: cpp will whinge at you 16:56:13 MizardX, aren't they evaluated when expanded 16:56:16 UB 16:56:23 and yes probably UB 16:56:42 gcc's cpp just leaves the bare name in after it detects a recursion 16:56:43 IIRC 16:57:14 interesting 16:58:30 10:16:25 you could always try filling the computer with liquid nitrogen 16:58:30 10:16:35 ISTR that method was used to set an overclocking record at one time 16:58:33 hm is GNU cpp implemented as a single pass reading input and writing to output as it goes, (+ storing defines in some list or such) or does it do something more complex? 16:58:35 should team up with a cryonics company 16:58:42 vitrified cpu 16:59:09 AnMaster: read the source :P I think so though 16:59:12 "vitrified"? 16:59:16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitrification 16:59:28 ah thanks 16:59:30 It's what's used in cryopreservation, as opposed to freezing 17:02:44 10:50:42 because monads cause things to happen in order 17:02:46 highly incorrect. 17:04:41 ehird, about freezing CPUs: yes it has been used for speed records, but doing that leads to a shorter lifetime for the CPU since it is put under quite large mechanical stress. Also too low temperature will lead to worse performance. 17:04:58 I know this... 17:04:59 10:17:28 the computer still managed to overheat eventually even though the outside was frozen. They only just had enough time to take a photo of the screen showing the fast clock speed before the computer turned itself off for heat reasons 17:05:04 i'm not an idiot 17:08:01 I didn't claim you were one 17:08:32 explaining trivial things generally has that implication 17:22:40 omgad 17:22:40 [ehird:~/Saved/2009-02/kdb] % QHOME=. rlwrap ./m32/q 17:22:40 KDB+ 2.5 2009.02.13 Copyright (C) 1993-2009 Kx Systems 17:22:41 m32/ 2()core 2560MB ehird bournemouth 255.255.255.255 PLAY 2009.05.14 17:22:41 q)Y:{{x[{x[x]y}[y]]z}[x][{x[{x[x]y}[y]]z}[x]]y} 17:22:41 q)Y Y 17:22:42 {{x[{x[x]y}[y]]z}[x][{x[{x[x]y}[y]]z}[x]]y}[{{x[{x[x]y}[y]]z}[x][{x[{x[x]y}[y.. 17:22:44 :D :D 17:26:27 q))2147483646 17:26:27 2147483646 17:26:28 q))2147483647 17:26:28 0W 17:26:28 q))2147483648 17:26:28 '2147483648 17:26:39 -!- M0ny has joined. 17:27:03 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 17:42:15 my virtual memory size of 49.85GB. 17:42:18 This is rathter large. 17:42:44 It's not the size that matters. 17:45:20 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:47:59 it went over a tb 17:48:00 x_x 17:48:09 -!- Hiato has joined. 17:49:21 HOLY FUCK 17:49:26 I JUST MMAPED 10 FUCKING TERABYTES 17:49:27 :-| 17:51:21 your very own memory bubble 17:51:36 no wait 17:51:39 I mmaped 5242880 tb 17:51:43 lol wat 17:51:48 oh wait 17:51:50 those allocations failed 17:51:56 too bad it wasn't a year or two ago, or you could surely have sold it to the banks 17:52:15 ok I actually mmaped 320 TB 17:52:36 no wait 17:52:42 80 TB 17:53:24 i think you should take out insurance on that memory. ask someone else to allocate the same amount, and make a contract to cover each other. 17:54:42 :D 17:55:07 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 17:56:49 -!- oerjan has quit ("Business"). 17:59:08 -!- jix has joined. 18:07:30 out of interest, who is 92.48.122.144 and why did this person take the ACRONYM entry out of the hello world programmes page? 18:07:51 an idiot, probably 18:07:52 or a troll 18:07:55 feel free to revert them 18:08:23 Hiato: they replaced it with PnkHiD 18:08:24 yeah, I will 18:08:26 so merely a simple vandal 18:08:28 or a weird spambot 18:08:37 its because it was the first one 18:08:58 roger 18:11:05 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:12:04 not sure how to revert, so I edited =/ 18:12:38 * Hiato wonders if the equates to the same thing 18:13:46 history -> edit before the offender -> edit -> save 18:14:31 Except for the log message, I don't think there is any difference. 18:17:05 hrmm, ok, thanks (for future notice) and good to know, MizardX 18:20:09 http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?uudecode/pooq/1202119366&ijs 18:20:11 uudecode in j 18:20:16 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:23:06 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:38:23 [18:37:40] Grr, I wish there was an Emacs extention for stripping away the silly commands 18:38:40 yes it is!! 18:38:43 it's called VIM 18:38:46 *there is 18:38:50 hahaha, I just said 18:38:50 [18:38:35] cmihai: careful, someone will say 'vim' 18:44:17 11:19:16 how's this for a quine and palindromic quine: 18:44:17 11:19:44 puts"aa";File.open("test.rb"){|x|x.puts"aa"} 18:48:06 11:52:06 i'm trying to decide on the order in which i ban you all. 18:48:06 11:52:13 and the kick messages 19:12:05 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:12:34 * ehird downloads tic-tac-toe playing BMP 19:14:16 WHere was that located again? 19:14:21 http://filebin.ca/tesmth/OANDX.BMP 19:14:24 kudos to ais523 19:14:34 Also, some virus deleted my svchost.exe, so I found another copy on here and am using that 19:14:45 The computer feels faster, but I think Daemon Tools doesn't like it 19:14:51 ty 19:15:46 it is so amaaaazing 19:18:02 It.. doesn't take wins 19:19:16 Still cool 19:20:20 Sgeo: sure it does 19:20:22 I made it win 19:20:52 Sgeo: (0,0), (0,2), (2,2) 19:20:53 makes it win 19:21:00 * ehird makes AND gate 19:22:07 What I meant is that it doesn't always make a winning move when it becomes available 19:22:13 that is true 19:24:32 whoa 19:24:34 my friend won 19:24:39 Sgeo: http://filebin.ca/dkuvr/THISISNTCHEATING.bmp 19:25:50 s/NT// 19:26:11 Sgeo: how is it cheating 19:26:30 oh. yep. 19:26:32 he cheated. 19:26:51 First, I can't replicate it. Even if I didn't try replicating it, there should be 4 X's somewhere there 19:27:02 yeah he wiped out the computer's move 19:33:30 Nice BMP 19:48:49 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:14:43 05:43:57 I knew I'd seen ehird somewhere before 20:14:45 Asztal: wut 20:15:28 07:34:08 ehird: have you visited hoodwink'd before? this explains why I recognised your name. 20:15:28 aha 20:16:32 Hoodwink'd? 20:16:43 http://hoodwink.d/ 20:17:35 WHY does it require changing the hosts file? 20:18:06 If you have to ask that, you won't get it. Don't bothe. 20:18:07 r 20:18:09 It's broken anyway. 20:18:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Excess Flood). 20:19:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:22:24 in fact, it now displays viagra advertisments. 20:45:15 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 20:54:01 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:56:53 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird|away. 21:03:00 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:06:22 -!- ehird|away has changed nick to ehird. 21:11:06 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:13:00 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:13:42 not sure how to revert, so I edited =/ 21:13:58 this is obviously l'esprit d'escalier day 21:14:21 You saw what I said a while ago? 21:14:34 and commented on it 21:14:41 then, ehird did the same 21:14:59 although my point is that now i want to comment on Hiato too, and he is gone 21:15:54 anyway, a simpler way to remove spam, assuming you are reading through recent changes: click the diff link, then the undo link in the diff, then save 21:16:01 * Sgeo reads logs 21:16:05 that also gives a nice summary message 21:16:21 *diff link for the spam 21:16:46 you can do that through history too, iirc 21:17:26 oh and oklopol commented too 21:19:46 11:52:06 i'm trying to decide on the order in which i ban you all. 21:20:21 i suggest ordered by first letter of real name, according to the english alphabet ordering 21:20:34 * oerjan cackles evilly 21:21:08 And if ones real name is unknown? 21:21:28 i guess we'll have to go by nick then 21:21:31 :< 21:22:20 * oerjan goes into a backwards travelling time machine, then swats FireFly -----### 21:24:11 ...creating a time paradox, since the same is writing this message now, after the above event has taken place?' 21:35:58 i never said you were travelling backwards 21:38:19 * Sgeo renames some dangerous stuff by putting ".evil" at the end 21:38:23 Is that a good idea? 21:38:51 hoodwink.d was fun while it lasted :( 21:39:03 well, don't put it on the web where google can find it 21:39:04 And it's too dead for me to get to now? 21:39:31 or else some evil overlord might find it and use it 21:40:36 what is hoodwink.d apart from on a nonexistent tld? 21:41:31 Google it 21:46:22 Does hoodwink.d even work anymore? 21:47:41 no :( 21:47:57 the source code's still available, I guess 21:48:21 it was a system for commenting on other people's websites secretly 21:54:05 Secretly as in, not many people knew about it? 21:54:24 so 21:54:25 how come 21:54:34 when you sleep for 73 hours 21:54:38 when you wake up 21:54:50 things happen 21:54:55 even though they didn't while you slept 21:55:16 what do you think? 21:56:52 ehird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'esprit_de_l'escalier argh <<< i often have this in reverse, after a conversation i'm like "wow how did i come up with something that clever". 22:01:11 that would be Reilacseled Tirpsel, which is Frisian for "relaxed flow of wit" 22:02:56 something like that. 22:04:03 i have a lot of brain gears, which i cannot control voluntarily (yet) 22:05:12 -!- k2 has joined. 22:06:07 -!- kar8nga has quit (Nick collision from services.). 22:06:09 -!- k2 has changed nick to kar8nga. 22:07:04 beware of brain gears, even when bearing grains 22:08:41 oerjan: are you using a beginner's edition of the pun handbook, or what happened there? 22:09:29 it was a relaxed pun flow. 22:09:48 ah, that was better :) 22:09:49 those are made from punicles, so don't have to make sense 23:02:14 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird|away. 23:03:22 [23:01:49] [21:38:51] hoodwink.d was fun while it lasted :( 23:03:24 it should be revived 23:03:28 stupid why and his stupid doing other things. 23:03:35 -!- ehird|away has changed nick to ehird. 23:03:39 stupid fucking client 23:13:13 Hi, Sgeo. 23:13:32 Why are you spontaneously saying "Hi"? j/k 23:13:40 hi 23:13:59 I'm guessing you're not going to buy it? 23:16:02 Hm? 23:23:33 I looked the client up, and apparently a 15-day trial is offered 23:27:44 oh, right. 23:27:49 I has a pirate key. 23:27:56 It's nice apart from the away behaviour 23:28:08 fixed 23:31:24 grah 23:31:26 * ehird swats FireFly 23:31:31 :< 23:31:59 aw 23:32:03 poor unloved FireFly 23:32:37 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:33:02 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 23:36:11 09:46:57 * ais523 is annoyed that the following Anarchy Golf quine-by-cheating was rejected: ps -Cps -oargs= 23:36:12 09:47:04 it segfaults 23:36:17 [ehird:~] % ps -Cps -oargs= 23:36:17 ps: Invalid process id: s 23:36:17 :P 23:37:12 https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3471 <- amazing. 23:43:21 grah, readline is such a scourge 23:43:30 I want to make them relicense it to lgpl at gunpoint 23:47:08 Anarchy Golf ? 23:47:49 Don't the FSF people think of readline as a success, for actually causing some projects to switch to GPL for its sake? 23:52:40 How does one take up 12 characters to print 42? 23:53:52 Sgeo: 23:53:57 1) What about it? 23:54:06 I mean, why would anyone try that? 23:54:11 try what 23:54:16 2) Yes — fuck the FSF. 23:54:18 3) Huh? 23:54:34 http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?ultimate+problem 23:54:39 Look at the Python chart 23:54:42 let's write a readline clone from scratch and release it under lgpl 23:54:53 lament: see - editline 23:54:55 ...in haskell! 23:55:11 Sgeo: either 1) be an idiot, 2) be silly 23:57:08 * Sgeo doesn't get "Evil C Compiler".. is it supposed to be that it detects one of the programs supplied as input as being something and gives hardcoded output? 23:57:17 it depends. 23:57:21 some are legit compilers, some are not 23:57:28 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:57:28 (where legit = regexs the C to make it valid $LANG, then eval) 23:57:39 ah 23:58:01 legit ones = my Ruby sub 23:58:05 and the long postscript one 23:59:26 -!- FireFly has joined. 23:59:28 How can you tell which are legit? None of the submissions are available, unless I'm missing something? 23:59:44 Protip: Making a legit version takes a lot of code. The byte sizes are available. 23:59:48 Also, I just listed all the legit ones. 23:59:55 The postscript guy wrote about it on his japanese blog 2009-02-21: 00:05:21 No one submitted any entries for XYZ? 00:05:33 oh n/m 00:16:31 16:41:00 ={:'a'z..?{'a-13+26%}if} 16:41:04 ninjacode, without much thought 00:16:34 whoa ninjacode rot13 :D 00:17:35 0=~1+.' C~ 00:17:36 prettyyyy 00:18:24 0=~1+.' C~ is possibly the best code I've ever written. 00:19:23 What's a good language to learn for jobs 00:20:17 java. 00:20:18 php. 00:20:21 c#. 00:20:22 vb. 00:20:52 What about C++? 00:21:05 maybe in the games industry. 00:21:32 Sgeo: btw, a mainstream programming job is about the most soul-destroying thing you could do. 00:21:37 I would reconsider. 00:21:44 Howso? 00:21:53 Or are you assuming that from TDWTF? 00:21:54 Sgeo: y'know thedailywtf? 00:21:57 that's everyday. 00:22:00 and no 00:22:08 I've had many conversations over the years :P 00:22:21 {'{C:.'}C.}'{C:.'}C. <- ninjacode quine, awesome 00:22:43 * Sgeo can't find any information on ninjacode 00:22:47 my lang 00:22:52 circa jan 08 00:23:09 summary, from then: 00:23:09 1. small code size, for golfing 2. easy to refactor to be smaller 3. mostly written in itself, as an stdlib: a very big stdlib, with tons and tons of stuff 4. the core is just a very simple kernel written in C, which compiles the very small core it provides to native code (!!!) and then the rest is done by the stdlib 00:23:23 it was quite elegantering. 00:23:42 (elegant, v. to make more elegant) 00:24:53 Link to interp and docs? 00:24:58 ahahahaha 00:25:13 infer whatever from that 00:25:46 i infer that you are infernal 00:25:56 * Sgeo wants to learn ninjacode@! 00:25:56 Oerjan can I rent your swatter 00:25:57 ! 00:26:13 yes; that will be 3 cuils 00:27:06 doubled if you swat me 00:27:27 Sgeo: there's no compiler, nor docs. 00:27:28 also i infer there are no docs 00:27:35 however I am now tempted to revive the project. 00:27:44 Do it@ 00:27:45 ! 00:27:49 Sgeo: I can explain 0=~1+.' C~ to you, if you want 00:27:53 Sure 00:28:01 it linecounts a file 00:28:10 a\nb\nc -> 1 a\n2 b\n3 c 00:28:18 so, 0 pushes 0 to the stack 00:28:23 = is like perl -p 00:28:26 basically: 00:28:45 = means 'while there is input: read line, push to stack, run rest of program, print Top of Stack (popping it), repeat' 00:28:57 ~ means swap, so we get the 0 on the top of the stack, not the input 00:28:59 1+ increments it 00:29:01 . outputs it 00:29:04 ' <- note the space 00:29:09 'c is the ascii num of char c 00:29:13 C prints a character from its ascii code 00:29:19 and ~ swaps again, making the input line the ToS 00:29:21 and it's printed 00:29:24 and the line count is still there 00:29:27 and the new line is pushed 00:29:27 etc 00:30:42 -!- Corun has joined. 00:32:15 Sgeo: get it? 00:32:23 Kind of 00:32:32 what don't you get :-D 00:33:47 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:36:14 Nothing, I'm just not that focused on it. Would "2+" be increment of two? 00:38:31 -!- olsner has joined. 00:39:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:40:27 Yes. 00:40:29 It's stack-based. 00:45:08 night 00:45:31 IS IT STACK-BASED!!!!? 00:46:01 wut 00:47:03 that's what I said 00:50:59 but, is it stack-based? 00:51:21 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:51:32 verily 00:58:34 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:01:20 DOES THAT MEAN IT IS STACK BASED!? 01:01:36 a rot13 drome: greeny <-> terral 01:01:56 rotiedrome! 01:08:01 I don't think it is stack based. The evidence is shaky to say the least. 01:11:02 oh god. 01:11:07 next ubuntu: "karmic koala" 01:11:09 I am not fucking kidding 01:11:33 It's a word 01:11:49 KARMIC 01:11:50 fucking 01:11:51 KOALA 01:12:26 If "fucking" was part of the name, I'd understand the issue here 01:13:25 Karmic Koala Engaged in Intercourse 01:13:28 Karmic Kuk Koala? 01:13:45 btw, does norwegian have the word "kuk"? 01:17:08 -!- M0ny has quit ("Quit"). 01:18:03 Karmic Cock Koala 01:19:25 olsner: yes 01:19:27 NotAnAlliterationException 01:20:12 there's a norwegian band named "Brutal Kuk", i hear 01:20:36 how impolite and provocative of them 01:20:48 Kock Koala 01:20:50 Cock Coala 01:20:51 pick one 01:21:27 aha, coala is a synonym for koala, according to dictionary.reference.com 01:22:05 Cock Coala works then, although I guess the sequence of release names requires a 'k'-alliteration 01:22:18 they also have a giant phallus as a concert prop 01:23:38 phallic phallus should be the fifth ubuntu release from now 01:24:12 nah, that will be Perfect Panda 01:24:17 * oerjan ducks 01:24:58 penile p-something 01:25:33 erm in case you didn't notice it was ehird who inserted the rude words 01:25:57 penile piss. 01:25:59 really? 01:26:04 Duh. 01:26:16 also, do we really care about such things in #esoteric? 01:26:51 depends whether our pedantics or our gay sex drive is strongest at the moment 01:27:16 pedantic gay sex. 01:27:17 THE BEST! 01:27:44 ehird, what would you suggest instead of mainstream programming? 01:27:49 certainly pedantics 01:28:07 Sgeo: Make a startup, suck paul graham's dick, fail to be bought out, die of starvation. 01:28:10 well, then we care, duh 01:28:50 so, gay sex => not caring about rude words? 01:29:09 and non-gay sex => caring? 01:29:44 You can't have gay sex without naughty words, olsner 01:29:48 Now suck my dick 01:29:55 Slereah_: seldom would I ever 01:30:01 (no offence) 01:30:25 also, naughty words exist without sex 01:30:35 But where's the fun in that 01:30:52 there's some kind of logical fallacy (phallosy?) involved 01:31:24 phallucy 01:31:46 +spelling, obviously 01:32:18 vaginal phallucy 01:32:25 olsner: what the hell are you talking about you satanic infidel 01:32:38 -!- ehird has set topic: what the fuck are you fucking about you satanic GUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU. 01:32:53 oerjan: have some fermented milk you norwegian person! 01:33:04 -!- Slereah_ has set topic: what the fuck are you fucking about you satanic GUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 01:33:04 ehird: you missed the point, which was to have naughty words _without_ sex 01:33:20 naughty sex without words 01:33:33 that's easy, but not in a topic 01:33:51 verily 01:33:58 well would be easy if i could get some 01:34:09 also, emily deschanel <3 01:34:30 #esoteric is so fucking weird 01:34:31 Wow, #wikipedia is deluged 01:34:34 and also weird at fucking 01:35:04 if there was ever fucking in #esoteric, it would probably be quite generic 01:35:13 deluged, or just deluded? and deranged. 01:35:31 oerjan, Wikipedia is down, and the error message points there 01:35:41 erm 01:35:42 not down for me 01:35:42 oerjan: deluged, deluded and deranged! 01:35:43 it's up 01:35:44 ;\ 01:35:46 olsner: kefir då? 01:35:55 "wikipedia is BROKEN for most users" 01:36:21 oerjan: haven't had fil in a few weeks though... besides, kefir is essentially the same as fil 01:36:44 kefir mjølk, kefir ikkje kaffi 01:37:04 kefir är fan inte mjölk, det är ett som är säkert! 01:37:46 oerjan: you wouldn't happen to have a youtube clip of an angry norwegian? 01:38:04 there was some contention over beer whether or not norwegians had the ability to be angry 01:38:11 olsner: that's actually a pun on "kefir" sounding like it _could_ be nynorsk for "hvorfor" / "why" 01:38:26 some comedians did that in a sketch or something 01:38:48 oh, obtruse (obstuse? obscure?) 01:38:55 (the actual nynorsk is "kvifor") 01:39:07 also, I see the fun of it 01:39:42 * oerjan checks wp 01:40:06 hm hanging 01:40:25 Vunderbar. 01:40:35 olsner: i'm actually not at youtube much 01:40:44 My external brain enhancement. :/ 01:41:19 oerjan: the best thing about norwegians though is that their english sounds like the keepers of the continuum transfunctioner 01:41:32 WTF? 01:41:34 (usually) 01:41:46 it's true! 01:41:57 and it's friggin hilarious! 01:42:00 what is a keeper of the continuum transfunctioner? 01:42:18 oh, from the movie dude where's my car 01:43:07 olsner: here's an oldie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHT_Lu0OoAI 01:44:32 hm there was this washmashine repair thing... 01:44:49 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXMcp94Y-9U 01:44:56 oh that's just a sound file 01:45:05 The deluge in #wikipedia has stopped 01:45:32 good, so we can continue it in here now then? 01:46:00 but but we have no bots to spam with 01:46:45 It's back, I think 01:46:58 you mean, we have no humans to provide contents with? 01:47:16 http://lispmachine.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/the-key/ <-- Biggest retard ever. 01:47:59 mörnin 01:48:04 hi oklopol 01:48:16 You're not ... dangit no compose key 01:48:21 hyvvä 01:48:36 olsner: yes very gdodd. 01:48:54 oklopol: orly!? just guessing damnit :P 01:48:55 oklopol: god morgon 01:49:15 otoh, 'hyvvä' I have actually learnt at some time 01:49:42 yxi kaxi kolme hyvvä ei saa peittää parasta ennen 01:49:54 s/x/ks/g 01:49:55 :P 01:50:06 oerjan: one error left. 01:50:15 ... getting your finnish corrected by the norwegian 01:50:40 hm i don't know that one 01:50:49 oerjan: i already hinted. 01:51:03 huh? 01:51:08 olsner: hyvvä ||| oklopol: olsner: yes very gdodd. <<< this is, in fact, a pun 01:51:18 aha 01:51:20 hyyvä? 01:51:25 :D 01:51:57 hejj hhej heej hej 01:52:16 nope, it's "hyvä", this is one of the 5 exceptional words where there are no double-letters, what ever the term is for those 01:52:53 wtf! 01:53:08 indeed 01:53:16 Most words have redundant letters? 01:53:17 i had to check my dictionary, tbh. 01:53:26 but it's a double-v and a short-y with the accent on the last 'ä', right? 01:53:44 What does hyva mean? And pretend that the a has those two dots 01:54:26 Sgeo: you're finnish, you should know 01:54:40 olsner: you can't have accent on the last "ä", all accents are on the first syllable; which btw is something all languages should do. 01:54:59 * oerjan swats oklopol -----### 01:55:11 olsner, what do you mean, I'm finnish? 01:55:13 accent might not be what I'm actually referring to 01:55:22 stress 01:55:32 emphasis 01:55:33 Sgeo: you're not!!?? ok, maybe you aren't 01:55:42 pressure 01:55:44 Is it the nick? 01:55:46 yeah, something along those lines 01:55:46 push 01:55:52 weight 01:55:53 Did the nick make you think I'm finnish? 01:55:59 Sgeo: yeah, sgeo is finnish for dumbass 01:56:15 * Sgeo steals oerjan's swatter 01:56:26 * Sgeo swats oerjan -----### 01:56:30 *ouch* 01:56:35 that'll be 6 cuils 01:56:44 * Sgeo is not paying 01:56:46 * Sgeo runs 01:56:48 * oerjan takes his swatter back 01:56:48 * olsner gets a few ascii tables and builds himself a swatter 01:56:52 "sg" isn't very finnishy. 01:56:57 oklopol: sssh 01:57:00 god you suck at finnish 01:57:02 seriously. 01:57:07 a dyslexic finn, then 01:57:19 * Sgeo knows 0 finnish 01:57:20 oklopol: you think i didn't know that? 01:57:25 oerjan: well no 01:57:42 i'm just playing my part in the convo. 01:58:03 oh, and this is the part where you tell us we suck? 01:58:14 :) 01:58:22 makes sense, actually, but it's kind of harsh 01:58:48 i don't think "god you suck at finnish" is an insult 01:59:00 suukkaani enormousilainen 01:59:13 it's like a woman telling me i menstruate like a dried up piece of wood 01:59:39 oerjan: wtf :D 01:59:55 was that your own translation? 02:00:02 _now_ you can tell me i suck at finnish :D 02:00:02 oerjan: hey, I could understand that! :P 02:00:03 i wish i could translate it back 02:00:18 because it's awesome 02:00:55 for the love of , translate it back anyway 02:01:08 "enormousilainen" is a perfectly contructed name for a citizen of enormous (or enormousi) 02:01:42 "suukkaani" would probably be the inessive of "suukka", which is perfect finnish, but means absolutely nothing 02:02:18 you probably want "suukkaan", which is the first person of the verb "suukata", which again means nothing 02:02:19 "I'm oerjan, the inessive of suukka of enormous!" 02:02:37 "sukata" is sometimes used for "suck" 02:02:58 and then, sukani would mean what? 02:03:02 but, i have a feeling this is more interesting to me than it is to you ppl, so i think i'm gonna get me some pizza 02:03:02 except 02:03:05 FUCK 02:03:13 the place closed 2 minutes ago :D 02:03:36 I guess you're stuck with the delusions of the rest of us 02:03:36 hm i know -ni can be a 1st person suffix but probably nouns only? 02:04:05 olsner: it would be the possessive of the noun "suka", which is something you brush animals with 02:04:24 oerjan: possessive 02:04:31 "my X" 02:04:35 so yes 02:05:18 the only way "ni" could end a verb would be if it were in the potential, but it's rare even then, and the potential isn't really used. 02:05:31 (are they called "cases" or what was the term again?) 02:05:53 it is in swedish, "kasus" 02:06:04 erm cases are on nouns and adjectives usually 02:06:25 verbs have tenses, aspects and moods 02:06:29 and i wouldn't suggest learning the potential anyway, since about 5% of the finnish population is able to form it 02:06:32 that 5% being me. 02:07:01 rubbish there are only 5 finns so you mean 20% 02:07:03 tenses, aspects and moods... and here I've only learned the difference betweem tenses 02:07:03 (yes, i mated.) 02:07:14 ^ for oerjan 02:07:18 i mean 02:07:19 said that 02:07:20 for him 02:07:22 ... 02:07:24 nm 02:08:12 well tenses might include the others too, i'm a bit unclear on that 02:08:20 Slereah_: congrats on the topic, i assumed it was ehird's. 02:08:29 nah, tenses and moods and the others are pretty distinct 02:08:35 hm nah 02:08:47 "the posessive the other" 02:08:54 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_tense 02:09:04 also lists voice and person 02:09:06 AFK 02:09:19 CYA 02:09:32 GTFO 02:09:47 BBQ! 02:10:05 ASL 02:10:19 papapa-oom-mow-mow, papa-oom-mow-mow 02:10:22 19/m/fi 02:10:45 had to think about the number for a while 02:10:50 38/m/no 02:11:22 only a month till it changes, then probably another month of confusion when i'm learning the new one. 02:11:43 oerjan: oh dang i was looking for chicks. 02:11:54 also the age difference could be in the other direction 02:11:59 except may a teensy bit less. 02:12:03 *maybe 02:12:27 any chicks here since sukoshi? 02:12:28 i mean an irc chat with a newborn might not be all that fruitful. 02:12:32 yes 02:12:48 hotidlerchick, although i heard from a reliable ehird he was actually a me 02:12:52 but you never know. 02:12:53 WAWAWA DA DA BABABA DA 02:13:15 MU 02:13:16 i don't know what that means 02:13:19 but good for you. 02:13:46 oklopol: actually a me? that sounds serious 02:14:00 how so? 02:14:34 * oerjan shakes away the confusion and assumes oklopol was joking 02:14:57 i was only joking in how i said what i said 02:15:00 not in what i meant 02:15:15 i heard from a reliable source hotidlerchick was actually oklopol. 02:15:28 wait a minute 02:15:48 i could believe that, except you are implying ehird is a reliable source 02:16:02 well okay that may have been confusing. 02:16:05 well 02:16:10 i don't know. 02:16:18 he said something about the ip's being the same 02:16:24 maybe he deceived you. it's so easy to do. 02:16:33 and that oklopol was probably doing the "i have a girl in here with me" gag 02:17:01 if i know oklopol at all, which i probably don't, that does sound like something he would do 02:17:07 except you'd think he'd do it a bit better. 02:17:24 oh i remember that, i assumed her name was Elisa Laajakaista 02:17:25 like, actually continue doing it until people believed him. 02:17:29 :D 02:18:06 "broadband" would make a nice nickname for a girl 02:18:29 btw the next "shop" closes in 40 minutes. 02:18:30 so 02:18:33 i need to leave soon 02:18:38 so i can get my satisfaction 02:18:59 yeah you have to work through the snow upwards in both directions 02:19:01 *walk 02:19:15 also work, of course, with those 5 feet 02:19:27 (measurement, not anatomy) 02:19:44 i actually just fetched my bike from my parent's house 02:19:52 so 02:19:54 should be easy. 02:23:30 in seven minutes 02:23:31 i will 02:23:32 go 02:25:49 oerjan is twice the age of oklopol? nice 02:25:59 barnarov, som vi säger på svenska 02:26:23 oklopol isn't a child any longer 02:26:37 maybe not legally 02:27:07 while i am eternally childish 02:27:46 olsner: is that like jb? 02:28:11 well, more like statutory rape I think 02:28:16 oh :P 02:28:24 i.e. it's an act not a person 02:33:48 -!- shapr has joined. 02:33:52 mitta? 02:34:10 Uh? 02:34:20 about 20 inches 02:34:25 oj 02:34:28 shapr! 02:34:30 hai, mimasita? 02:34:45 fuck 02:34:49 hurrrrry -> 02:34:49 pikhq: Hey, you're at an edu address, I thought Finns were not for export? 02:34:54 hej oerjan! 02:35:01 oerjan: Vad gör du? 02:35:04 pikhq is no finn 02:35:10 whew 02:35:12 I was worried for a second. 02:35:18 omtrent ingenting 02:35:18 Actually, that looked like japanese. 02:35:26 It was romanised Japanese. 02:35:36 ok then 02:35:47 "mitta" is "measure" or "length" in finnish. 02:35:58 was that what you were going for? 02:36:04 * oerjan swats oklopol -----### 02:36:04 Actually, I was going for "what?" in Finnish. 02:36:10 thought so 02:36:12 And it's past tense of "to see" in Japanese. 02:36:21 same error as olsner did earlier 02:36:24 Erm. Casual past tense, rather. 02:36:27 and it's the Boston way to talk about things that keep your hands warm. 02:36:39 well. it's that error plus another error 02:36:42 oerjan can correct it 02:36:45 * oklopol goes -> 02:36:45 oklopol: Well, you might know Finnish, but I know... um.. how to UNICYCLE! 02:36:50 ARGH! 02:36:52 i have a unicycle 02:36:55 oh 02:36:58 really? what sort? 02:37:03 the basic kind 02:37:04 * shapr boings cheerfully 02:37:07 20" wheel? 02:37:15 err dunno, ages since i used it 02:37:17 ooh, can I show you pix of my unicycle? 02:37:18 something like that. 02:37:21 sure. 02:37:36 * shapr is getting url.. 02:37:50 "I think we can all learn something from his last words: 'Wow, a unicycle! I haven't seen those since I was a little kid!'" 02:37:54 oklopol: http://picasaweb.google.com/shae.erisson/OakMountainUnicycling# 02:37:54 (i just bought it to learn the skill, i'm not actually that interested in the actual biking...) 02:38:12 looks just like mine 02:38:17 Really? 02:38:28 yeah i recognize the perverted seat 02:38:29 but 02:38:30 seriously 02:38:33 20 minutes 02:38:33 left 02:38:34 26"x3.7" ? 02:38:34 ! 02:38:35 -> 02:38:39 ok, bye 02:38:45 brb. 02:38:45 -> 02:39:09 oklopol is suffering from pizza withdrawal 02:39:16 I see. 02:39:26 I just had a monster fried steak sub, so I am sated. 02:42:24 mountain unicycle, now that sounds like a disaster waiting to happen 02:42:34 It's a lot of fun. 02:42:49 And I bet you're a lot younger now than I was when I learned to unicycle. 02:43:29 <- 38 02:44:17 k, I'm wrong :-) 02:44:23 You are in fact, older than I am now! 02:44:45 as i thought, especially after seeing your picture 02:44:50 fair enough 02:45:35 i'm one of the oldest regulars here though 02:45:48 me too! 02:45:52 er, I'm not a regular 02:45:59 well not _yet_ 02:46:09 but you've been here before :) 02:46:10 Though I'd love to reimplement many of wouter van oortmerssen's languages. 02:46:15 Since he won't release them :-( 02:46:26 oh? 02:46:39 Heck, I'd like to figure out how to get Aardappel to work! 02:46:43 Maybe you guys can tell me? 02:46:58 well not me 02:47:07 someone? anyone? 02:47:19 I guess Haskell no longer counts as an esoteric language? 02:47:30 i'm afraid this is a silent period on this channel 02:47:38 it is quiet 02:47:50 Haskell used to be esoteric! 02:48:06 about seven years ago 02:48:08 we have a bit more stringent definition, usually 02:48:29 What's the stringent definition? 02:48:58 it cannot be intended for practical use 02:49:20 Hm, Haskell wasn't? 02:49:20 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 02:49:31 sure it was? 02:49:54 No, Haskell was designed to be purely a research language.. it was hoped to be an open source version of Miranda. 02:50:06 that's not what i remember reading. 02:50:14 * shapr looks for the hopl paper 02:51:41 Also, it being a research language does not make it esoteric. 02:51:49 It makes it *interesting*. 02:51:49 oh 02:52:13 Of course, a research language could be esoteric without too much effort. 02:52:40 so 02:53:10 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language 02:53:25 that's as close to official as we get here 02:55:18 * oerjan wonders if we should make a less insulting topic 02:58:02 -!- oerjan has set topic: The intergalactic hub for esoteric programming language madness and denuement | Logs: http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki. 03:02:12 shapr: on closer look that looks nothing like mine :D 03:02:17 i was looking at the thumbnails 03:02:22 your wheel is huge. 03:03:23 shapr: Heck, I'd like to figure out how to get Aardappel to work! <<< dl it and run it? 03:04:03 unless you mean you want to learn to program in it, then i suggest you read wouter's paper on it 03:04:04 oklopol: Not that easy 03:04:09 oklopol: I tried that too. 03:04:24 oaky 03:04:52 oklopol: Yeah, 26 inch wheel, 3.7 inches across 03:05:14 so how old were you when you learned to unicycle 03:05:18 32 03:05:34 I started capoeira when I was 37 03:05:34 nice 03:05:57 I emailed Wouter asking for more help using Aardappel, he said to read his thesis. 03:06:37 usually at 30, people work, and don't really live anymore. 03:07:25 heh. 03:07:28 well 03:07:37 so what's the problem with just reading it? 03:07:46 It's not enough. 03:07:55 ah. 03:08:03 Either I'm clueless, or there just isn't any instruction on how to actually write code with Aardappel in his thesis. 03:08:13 The thesis talks about the implementation, lots of cool stuff there. 03:08:19 i was pretty new to all stuff when i was reading it, so i got enough out of it before even getting to the details of aardappel. 03:08:22 But how the heck do I drag the little boxes around to make stuff work? 03:08:30 i was like omg tree rewriting my brain explodes this is so cool. 03:08:34 Wait, you can actually wite code with Aardappel? 03:08:43 i've written some little "snippets" 03:08:48 Wow 03:09:12 This weekend I may bug you to show me how :-) 03:09:19 err, i probably didn't emphasize the "little" enough there 03:09:39 i don't think i've written anything that would even qualify as a useful function. 03:09:43 oklopol: too late, you're the official expert now 03:09:48 :D 03:10:40 * shapr grins 03:11:02 oklopol: How old were you when you learned to unicycle? 03:11:24 shapr: maybe 12 or something 03:11:27 oh 03:11:36 i felt like learning the basic circus stuff 03:11:37 How old are you now? 03:11:41 19 03:11:43 Oh, can you do backflips and stuff? 03:11:56 no, nothing you can't learn gradually. 03:12:30 i learn slowly, but i don't get tired with stuff. 03:12:36 tired? 03:12:44 like 03:12:45 umm 03:12:47 fuck 03:12:49 bored? 03:12:55 i forget words when i learn new stuff. 03:12:55 oh, I see 03:12:56 umm 03:12:57 yeah 03:12:58 you don't lose interest 03:13:02 yeah! 03:13:28 Where are you, Espoo? 03:13:42 turku 03:13:44 ah 03:14:12 I'm in Boston. 03:14:25 like the cigarettes? 03:14:31 It's cold here... not quite Rovaniemi cold, but cold. 03:14:39 Boston smokes? 03:14:40 what? 03:14:49 nm :) 03:34:34 Boston... Nice city. 03:34:41 Not too fond of the weather, though. 03:35:10 Far too hot & humid in the summer. 03:35:19 yes. 03:37:08 pikhq: I'm more of an Alabama kind of guy. 03:37:25 I much prefer Colorado, myself. 03:39:43 * oklopol 's never been to the country 03:40:46 You should try being, say, 100 miles from most everything some day. 03:41:24 i'm already about 5 meters from everything 03:41:38 at least a specific instance of anything of interest 03:46:26 * oerjan recalls a friend telling about an australian bragging how he lived 3 hours drive away from the closest city 03:47:32 however, this friend at the time lived in Svalbard, so he responded that he too lived 3 hours away from the closest city - by jet plane 03:48:03 :D 03:48:12 it's more about where the closest shop is 03:48:21 and where the nearest internet is 03:48:26 you don't need anything else 03:51:32 why don't i drink coffee all day long 03:52:16 i want like a coffee *machine*, like 03:52:21 a thingie that makes me coffee 03:52:22 all day 04:08:23 I lived in Tornio for two years. 04:09:41 I want an espresso machine, myself. 04:09:47 Mmm, espresso... 04:10:18 oerjan: 3 hours away by jet plane? That is rather impressive, I must admit. 04:10:53 i may or may not remember the number right 04:11:20 And looking at the Wikipedia page, I understand how. 04:11:49 Archipelagio halfway between Norway and the North Pole? Damn. 04:12:18 Tornio isn't nearly as remote as Svalbard. 04:12:31 But nowadays, I live about a mile from MIT and a mile from Harvard. 04:12:40 And half a mile from Tufts 04:12:49 and ten minutes drive away from quite a few universities. 04:13:22 Hmm. You'd be right about where I was at last summer... 04:13:46 * pikhq worked at Tufts as an assistant UNIX sys-admin 04:14:45 mit and harvard are that close? 04:14:55 Did you know Dave the sysadmin/IT guy with the blondish ponytail? Just had his first kid? 04:15:00 or do you just live in a very curious location 04:15:12 oklopol: You can almost throw rocks from MIT to Harvard. 04:15:35 I had *met* Dave... 04:15:45 Mostly, I knew Shawn. 04:15:51 do you happen to know how good the harvard cs stuff is? 04:16:02 (I was staying with him, so...) 04:16:05 oklopol: They have some decent type theorists. 04:16:08 pikhq: Ah, I see. 04:16:12 Dave is my next door neighbor. 04:16:20 Huh. 04:16:39 i mean i thought i'd go abroad, but then i learned they study automata here, so now i have no idea what to do. 04:16:56 i mean CA 04:17:17 oklopol: Yeah, MIT and Harvard are very, very close. 04:17:27 Was it one or two stops between them on the Red Line? 04:18:09 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Massachusetts+Institute+of+Tech+(MIT)&daddr=1+Mass+Ave,+Cambridge,+MA+02138+(Harvard+University)&hl=en&geocode=FYNchgIdwS3D-yEGyTcCu2HJiQ%3BCVAVqufD1WnRFa5ShgId_DXD-yFiyQC9d1EFug&mra=pe&mrcr=0&sll=42.365298,-71.101678&sspn=0.031835,0.066004&ie=UTF8&z=18 04:18:33 the red line? seems it's a finnish opera 04:18:45 One of the MBTA's subway lines. 04:19:04 Ok, so you'd need a baseball player to actually hit Harvard from MIT... 04:19:29 hmm. "institute of technology", i've never really even checked what the name comes from. 04:19:35 nice cs in mit? 04:19:44 * shapr shrugs 04:19:53 Damned good, I've heard. 04:19:54 It doesn't impress me, but I like type theory, purely functional lanuages, etc 04:20:30 Not impressed by one of the few US universities to teach CS using Scheme? 04:20:32 i wish there were good objective resources on universities. 04:20:42 pikhq: Oh don't get me wrong, I love SICP. 04:20:56 It's just that computer science means a lot more to me now than it did when I read SICP. 04:21:03 Ah. 04:21:28 oklopol: would you settle for functional ones? 04:21:31 Nowadays I look at Pierce's Types and Programming Languages as the ABCs of computer science. 04:21:44 oerjan: damn should've seen that coming :D 04:21:52 haha 04:22:19 I'd prefer a Homespringative resource on universities, though not for reasons I'm proud of. 04:22:23 yeah it's true there's no reason to teach programming using an actual programming language 04:22:56 well, in fact our advanced programming courses do not use programming languages 04:23:14 Of course, I'd like to take classes in FORTH and type theory at the same time :-) 04:24:16 well there is Chris Diggins's Cat 04:24:26 but we're less of a computation university and more of an application university. 04:28:18 err. 04:28:22 so 6:30 04:28:30 should probably start considering the sleeping. 04:28:42 nakimiin 04:28:44 or maybe the reading. 04:28:50 gönatt 04:28:52 * oerjan is considering, but haven't decided yet 04:28:57 sov gott 04:29:06 etcetera 04:34:43 blah 04:37:08 Man, I went to a gathering of Swedes recently... 04:37:15 so 04:37:31 how come factorials look so nice 04:38:04 they are such pretty numbers 04:38:41 just looking in base 10, but i'm pretty sure they're pretty in other bases too. 04:39:07 um, because they have many factors? 04:40:36 well that's pretty much what i'm asking, how come numbers look pretty when they're very composite 04:40:45 well 04:40:51 in fact that's kinda obvious. 04:41:50 wasn't at first, but i wasn't really aiming for a mathematical question, more like you know aesthetic. 04:41:52 o 04:41:52 o 04:44:52 go-time -> 04:47:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 05:14:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:34:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 05:56:50 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection reset by peer). 05:57:15 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 05:57:39 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:58:02 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 05:58:12 SHAZAM! 05:59:39 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection reset by peer). 06:00:02 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:00:34 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:00:58 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:30:09 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:34:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:34:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Client Quit). 09:46:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:57:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:57:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:05:36 okay that was ...surreal, i lie down for like 20 minutes, thinking what time it is, then, i decide to get up, and halfway through my quick rise into a sitting position the alarm clock starts ringing 10:05:51 oklopol: human instincts are easily trained 10:06:08 if you set your alarm for the same time every day, after a while you'll find yourself waking up pre-emptively to hear it ring 10:06:36 yesterday i set the clock at 7:20 and 19:30, now it was 12:00 10:06:53 well not "at" but anyway 10:08:29 ais523: more ideas? :) 10:09:00 heh, well when I was waking up on alarm clock every day a few years ago, I managed to wake up before the clock no matter when I set it 10:09:07 it's like my body had some sort of internal clock 10:09:09 also, weird times 10:09:11 btw those aren't even exact times, i randomize the last digit pretty uniformly 10:09:43 you don't you an alarm clock anymore? 10:10:01 my parents normally wake me up 10:10:12 because they wake up at much the same time as I want to wake up 10:10:29 ah right 10:10:37 parents are an awesome alarm clock 10:10:47 girlfriends not so much :< 10:11:01 oklopol: do you have a girlfriend? 10:11:11 i have a lot of things 10:11:57 ...i mean yes 10:14:40 he has a slave boy too ;D 10:14:41 <3 10:15:53 so 10:15:59 whats new in the world of esoterics 10:16:27 nothing much, I've been asleep 10:16:31 I slept 16 hours yesterday 10:16:35 well, nothing much from me 10:16:42 fun :) 10:17:07 sleeping is not all that fun. 10:17:13 no its really not 10:17:49 but waking up and then going to sleep again is one of the greatest feelings there are 10:18:10 falling asleep is a wonderful feeling 10:18:15 when you're tired. 10:18:59 well, if you want something new: http://clc.intercal.org.uk/ 10:19:06 CLC-INTERCAL has a spiffy new website 10:19:11 well yes sure, i guess you could generalize it to that 10:19:16 and by spiffy you mean not 10:19:18 i'm just always tired when i wake up. 10:19:22 I didn't have anything to do with that, but I'm probably going to profit from it anyway 10:19:23 who isnt 10:22:34 ais523: ugly page, should invert the colors 10:22:45 or use an interesting background 10:22:48 like i do :D 10:22:49 wellnowwhat.net 10:22:55 yeah yeah we know :) 10:23:06 if I were to make a website about INTERCAL, I'd do something surprising 10:23:09 you know, i get those from glitches my computer has 10:23:14 like flourescent pink with pictures of flowers, or something 10:23:34 or maybe an incredibly flashy flash animationy page 10:23:59 nah, it should work in every browser that became popular ever 10:24:05 including Netscape 1, and Mosaic 10:24:39 you could have ascii animations for ones without a gui 10:26:17 -!- Mony has joined. 10:33:55 so have you ever decided to learn to like a drink that tastes like a rotten space turtle? 10:34:20 no 10:35:08 i mean there's this drink i hate, but it looks so delicious cuz it's all green 10:35:18 * oklopol fetches it 10:51:15 -!- Hiato has joined. 11:04:15 hmm... it's laugh-at-the-name-of-the-next-version-of-Ubuntu time again 11:07:38 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 11:20:40 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 11:21:14 oh? 11:21:19 what is it now? 11:22:14 Karmic Koala 11:22:22 lolololol 11:22:25 that's the version for October 2009 11:22:39 i wonder what Q is going to be 11:22:40 or X 11:29:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:05:20 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:28:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Excess Flood). 12:28:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:59:48 -!- Corun has joined. 13:00:11 -!- jix_ has joined. 13:10:49 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:16:51 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:17:28 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:33:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:37:26 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:41:11 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 13:46:34 -!- ais523 has quit ("going to get lunch"). 13:56:25 -!- Corun has joined. 13:57:10 if you set your alarm for the same time every day, after a while you'll find yourself waking up pre-emptively to hear it ring 13:57:11 used to happen for me 13:57:13 doesn't any more :( 13:57:15 it's like my body had some sort of internal clock 13:57:17 well, uh, it does :P 13:57:31 02:11:11 i have a lot of things 13:57:31 02:11:57 ...i mean yes 13:57:50 the day when a straight answer is gottenered out of oklopol is a day of amazing. 13:59:28 hmm... it's laugh-at-the-name-of-the-next-version-of-Ubuntu time again 13:59:32 i said that yesterday, slowpoke. 14:00:23 pikhq: Hey, you're at an edu address, I thought Finns were not for export? 14:00:30 they fall under cryptography regulations 14:00:39 -!- Hiato has joined. 14:00:40 (due to their language, so obscure that only 5 people can understand it) 14:00:46 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 14:01:16 ooh, can I show you pix of my unicycle? 14:01:18 O.O 14:23:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:24:18 hi ais523 14:24:27 hi 14:26:31 ais523: I dug up your tic tac toe BMP yesterday, and the logs then said you and rodgerthegreat found and/or gates and the like? 14:26:39 I've tried to make a bmp and gate but not much success 14:26:46 not repeatable gates 14:27:24 wans't aiming for repeatbe 14:27:26 repeatable 14:27:47 you basically have to rely on multiple clicks 14:27:53 colouring black/blue/black to set the things off 14:28:09 oh 14:28:13 I was trying to get just input clicks 14:28:13 :( 14:28:19 ais523: I thought of a more useful fill operation that could help: 14:28:31 if you fill black on gray, and there's a line going gray, black, gray 14:28:34 it crosses over the black 14:28:42 i.e., it fills both the colour you're filling and the colour you're filling to 14:28:51 that would be more useful, although not exactly a floodfill 14:29:49 Ask M$ to implement it, we wanna code in Paint 14:30:10 * ais523 considers downloading the source to KolourPaint and tweaking it to do that 14:30:24 incidentally, I updated to KDE 4.2 earlier this morning, haven't tried it out yet 14:30:27 actually, I'm going to do that now 14:30:33 -!- ais523 has quit ("switching to a different window manager"). 14:30:51 shapr: ooh, aardappel 14:30:54 I'ma download it to help you 14:33:37 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:33:45 wb ais523 14:33:53 well, it isn't so broken I can't log into it, that's a start 14:33:58 how many lightyears behind OS X is KDE now? 3? 14:36:29 I haven't really used OSX, so I can't easily compare 14:36:39 so far, I've decided I prefer gksudo to kdesudo 14:36:58 and Kate seems to have disappeared, let me see what happened to it (I suspect it's a Kubuntu packaging screwup) 14:37:05 yowsers, editing Aardappel is hard 14:37:12 languages are text based for a reason... 14:37:26 what about colorforth 14:37:38 that's text-based 14:37:44 the colours are just extra keys :P 14:37:46 but can't be edited with a normal text editor 14:37:52 that isn't what I said 14:39:01 well, what non-text-based languages have I used? 14:39:10 I don't know 14:39:20 Logicator which isn't all that bad, but which is slow and it's a pain to stop wires crossing 14:39:27 Simulink which is awful, in more ways than one 14:39:57 and that circuit editor thing I can't remember the name of which was actually quite good, but was converted into text in the backend I think 14:40:18 nice cs in mit? 14:40:22 from what i've heard it's considered the best 14:40:36 from the stuff that comes/came out of there I'm inclined to agree 14:41:13 as for the look of the thing, I like the window decorations, the widgets for menus and dialog boxes are a bit ugly though 14:41:55 screeny of kde? 14:43:14 let me try to get a good one for you 14:43:21 that also shows the biggest problem for me atm, I wonder if it's fixable 14:43:50 ais523: by the way, Squeak was forked recently to try and remove the educational-child-yaay-fluff and make it not hideous, and integrate better with the host OS 14:44:03 ah, ok 14:44:04 which I think solves quite a lot of your complaints about squeak 14:44:08 screeny: http://pharo-project.org/pictures/41/p1boiza388rvo4mb1h7xxhm8g5ajji/pharo-screenshot-720.png 14:44:17 sorry about the delay, I'm trying to find where the screenshot app/key is on here, I'm not used to it 14:44:22 print scr? 14:44:29 apparently not 14:48:53 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:49:44 ehird: http://filebin.ca/roupsd/kde4.2.png 14:50:06 the K Menu is blatantly stolen from Windows Vista, or vice versa, by the way 14:50:07 hmm. 14:50:11 and tab-complete works cmd-style not sh-style 14:50:21 well, it's prettier than kde3, that's for sure. 14:50:24 if you set your alarm for the same time every day, after a while you'll find yourself waking up pre-emptively to hear it ring 14:50:31 where pressing tab always returns a result, repeating tab returns subsequent results 14:50:33 that blue window shadow/glow is a bit iffy 14:50:39 or rather, pre-emptively to turn it off before it rings 14:50:41 same with those wolverine-style stripes on the title bar 14:50:46 I like those stripes 14:50:47 also, not much distinction between highlighted and not windows? 14:51:04 those maximize/resize buttons look kind of crap 14:51:08 usability-wise 14:51:12 the stripes disappear and the close/restore/maximise buttons are greyed out for an inactive window 14:51:15 small and it's not clear what they do at a glance 14:51:15 otherwise, not much difference 14:51:24 but yeah, wtf is up with that BLUE SHADOW? 14:51:29 but I rarely have trouble working out which window's active anyway 14:52:09 oerjan: i often wake up late, and see my alarm clock has been turned off, but can't really tell whether i turned it off before or after the ring because i have no memory of that. 14:52:17 also, what blue shadow? 14:52:53 ais523: task manager settings 14:52:55 look at the side and top 14:53:03 the shadow is glowing blue. 14:53:08 that's not right. 14:53:20 ah yes, it only seems to happen on overlapping windows 14:53:32 oklopol: that's the reason i started putting the alarm clock too far from the bed to reach 14:53:35 I presume the idea's so you can tell one window apart from the next, but blue is probably the wrong colour 14:53:43 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/20/wikileaks_donor_leak/ hahaha 14:53:54 also, GTK apps seem uglier on KDE4 than QT apps on Gnome 14:54:00 oerjan: i usually use two or three clocks, all randomly placed around the room 14:54:02 ais523: install gtk-qt-theme-engine 14:54:03 thing 14:54:10 because the default to the default Gnome style which is ugly 14:54:11 >_< 14:54:12 it makes gtk apps use your kde theme, not perfectly but decently 14:54:13 i assumed the bluw 14:54:21 ehird: only when on kde, or always? 14:54:27 not sure. 14:54:29 *e was because the background color was used for shadows 14:54:29 I'd like the opposite too, to make kde apps look like gnome when I'm on gnome 14:54:35 that is hard 14:54:37 there's no generic way to do it 14:54:50 but install it, it's in apt-get 14:54:54 ehird: link me an aardappel if you have it open 14:54:56 you configure it via the kde settings panel <-- non intuitive 14:55:08 oklopol: http://strlen.com/aardappel/index.html 14:55:13 http://strlen.com/files/lang/aardappel/aarded.zip 14:55:17 clicky the bat file 14:55:22 and start a new project 14:55:41 it's already installed 14:56:37 hm so aardappel does mean potato 14:56:47 ais523: great, just enable it then 14:56:49 in the kde settings panel 14:56:53 I can't figure out where the settings panel is 14:56:58 I found it in 4.1, but it was broken 14:57:03 here I'm having trouble finding it altogether 14:57:09 heh 14:57:30 hmm... do you think it's under settings, settings, system, or system settings? 14:57:30 I am getting tempted to install kubuntu 14:57:36 someone ought to fix that k menu garble 14:57:46 when's karmickckckckoala out again? 14:57:51 ais523: you want system settings 14:57:57 ehird: it's out in october 14:58:01 ah. 14:58:02 jaunty jackalope's out in april 14:58:09 is that the next release? 14:58:10 aight 14:58:12 yes 14:58:15 karmic's only just been named 14:58:18 it's the next-but-one 14:58:31 ais523: does KDE4.2 have less settingscruft? 14:58:44 I don't know, I can't find it 14:58:47 haha 14:58:49 I meant in general 14:58:51 it isn't under system settings 14:59:08 ais523: you have to click the mouse in the lower left corner, click control shift meta alt and the mouse, move it diagonally to the other corner, release alt and meta, and chant "Ph.nglui mglw.nfah Cthulhu R.lyeh wgah.nagl fhtagn!" before you release the rest 14:59:23 that should do it. 14:59:31 oerjan: I would actually try that, but I might get in trouble chanting here and I'm not sure how to pronounce it 14:59:41 besides, I have super over here not meta, should I press ESC first instead? 14:59:52 do both just to be sure 15:00:17 ais523: just splutter over what you can't pronounce. 15:00:33 ehird: i _really_ don't recommend that with these things. 15:00:45 well, the desktop settings don't seem settingcrufty 15:00:48 there's less there than Gnome 15:00:48 ais523: can you test Jaunty already? 15:00:52 but that's just what I got from right-clicking 15:00:59 ehird: yes, you can set your repos to jaunty and download it 15:01:04 ah 15:01:07 I don't want to risk that without a spare computer, though 15:01:08 I'd rather install jaunty plain 15:01:18 I really want something with 4.2 out of the box, tbh 15:01:22 they haven't packaged it onto install CDs yet, I don't think 15:01:25 upgrading KDE and the like tends to leave cruft around 15:01:29 but I got 4.2 from intrepid-proposed 15:01:47 I generally run -proposed so I can help out Ubuntu with bug reports and fixes before they hit the masses 15:02:44 why don't they build CDs automatically, anyway... 15:02:52 hmm... Dolphin is reminding me surprisingly of Nautilus 15:02:57 ehird: they have to decide what goes on them, I think 15:03:07 isn't Dolphin supposed to be really crap 15:03:08 all the standard packages ofc, but also which nonstandard ones to add 15:03:18 ehird: well, KDE fans seem not to like it 15:03:27 http://dolphin.kde.org/images/home.png 15:03:33 gee, they ripped off Finder wholeslae. 15:03:36 *wholesale 15:03:51 heh, I was going to say the same thing but with Nautilus 15:03:59 so I can only assume that all three file managers work much the same way 15:04:09 ais523: Nautilus is more like the mac os classic filemanager 15:04:16 I know that Nautilus stole the eject buttons next to unmountable things from Mac OS X 15:04:21 but that screen is almost 100% identical to Finder 15:04:27 9except uglier) 15:04:28 *( 15:04:36 apart from the toolbar at the top, it's the same as nautilus too 15:05:05 and you can even get Explorer to do that if you mess around with the settings a bit, but it isn't intelligent enough to figure out how best to do it itself and it looks even uglier 15:05:14 that breadcrumb is nice though 15:05:44 Nautilus has button-shaped breadcrumbs 15:06:01 based on the Gnome principle of making clickable areas as big as you can get away with to make clicking on them faster 15:06:03 probably if I did install linux I'd use a tiling window manager or something 15:06:13 well, Gnome vs. KDE is more than just the window managers 15:06:35 *coleslaw 15:07:03 oerjan: ? 15:07:11 ais523: oh jeez, windows weenies claimed dolphin was copied from Explorer... 15:07:13 ^^^ 15:07:14 now _that's_ plain retarded 15:07:15 http://www.aeroxp.org/board/index.php?showtopic=8352 15:07:44 it's just 3 minutes ago it's not my fault you TALK SO DAMN FAST 15:08:22 oh dear, x11 support on Leopard got worse 15:08:25 specifically, visuals-wise 15:08:35 they forgot to update the quartz-x11 wm to use the new window decorations 15:08:48 so it displays a Tiger-looking window... 15:09:01 and the shadows are all out of place. 15:10:28 hm patent law is going to be (even more) _hell_ once they invent time machines 15:10:32 ais523: from that thread: 15:10:34 "Then again, who needs linux? The ReactOS project (don't laugh!) is doing pretty well." 15:10:37 /facepalm 15:10:50 go ReactOS! 15:11:01 i like reactos, but seriously 15:11:03 look at what he's saying 15:11:09 "We don't need other OSes, because we can clone Windows!" 15:11:19 it has a long way to go, but I'd like to see it eventually do well 15:11:19 "... What, you mean the other OSs are different for a _reason_?" 15:11:25 "HA HA YEAH RIGHT" 15:12:26 hmm... I didn't manage to find the system settings via the menus 15:12:30 so I tried apropos 15:12:36 that failed too, now I'm messing with apt-cache 15:13:08 ais523: do you think kubuntu will recognize my wireless kb/mouse from the livecd? 15:13:15 quite possibly, I don't know 15:13:22 but Ubuntu is pretty good at driver support nowadays 15:13:43 unfortunately not on macs 15:13:51 it is a pain to install linux on them 15:13:53 aha, it wasn't installed 15:14:02 and I know why too 15:14:17 it's because I turned off the automatic changing of which KDE features are installed 15:14:20 * ehird resizes Macintosh HD partition while booted in to it 15:14:25 to get rid of kubuntu's usplash in favour of ubuntu's 15:14:31 ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY 15:14:35 ehird: that's impressive, although I can understand how it's possible 15:15:09 actually, it fails because it's kind of fucked up -- i have a linux swap partition that i can't delete, but every operation fails because when it calls its internal libraries, they say they don't know none 'bout this here "Linux Swap" 15:15:23 presumably you won't have to deal with having ubuntu and kubuntu simultaneously installed, so life will be easier for you 15:15:28 if I remove linux swap, it just comes back again 15:15:40 so I'll have to do some gparteding 15:16:06 wait... 15:16:11 linux still uses x.org 15:16:17 why am I planning to install it 15:16:22 that way lies pain. 15:16:32 does X not detect your screen correctly? 15:16:43 Hardy was much better at detecting my screen than intrepid, by the way 15:16:59 i'm not sure what it does right now, all I know is that every time I try linux, X11 fucks up somehow and I have to edit god damn xorg.conf 15:17:06 I hate that file with the passion of a thousand burning suns 15:17:13 lol: "Ctrl-Alt-Backspace is now disabled, to reduce issues experienced by users who accidentally trigger the key combo. Users who do want this function can enable it in their xorg.conf, or via the command dontzap --disable." 15:17:27 what, really? 15:17:31 in which version of what? 15:17:38 jaunty latest alpha (4) 15:17:42 I need to turn that back on if it's affecting Ubuntu 15:18:50 wow, habits can form so easily 15:19:11 I'm getting utterly confused because when I open windows, they're ending up in a different order on the taskbar relative to where they do in Gnome 15:19:39 ais523: what would be the best way to get a system with kde 4.2? 15:19:43 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 15:20:02 ehird: the advise from slashdot is to install opensuse, IIRC 15:20:11 because they didn't mess up the packaging the same way Kubuntu did 15:20:18 I have no personal experience of this, though 15:20:18 opensuse?!?! 15:20:25 uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. 15:20:28 also, it's advise from slashdot 15:20:31 so probably ignore it 15:20:34 *advice 15:20:40 yeah, to hell with slashdot. 15:20:52 Who Poses the Greatest Threat To Your Privacy? 15:20:55 CowboyNeal 15:21:05 yay, they added back the CowboyNeal option 15:21:09 nope 15:21:13 I was filling in my own answ´r 15:21:15 *answer 15:21:17 it was gone for several months, and there was something of a rebellion brewing 15:21:22 it's not back 15:21:23 ugh, if that option's still gone... 15:21:25 * ais523 seeths 15:21:42 personally I think they should run polls where CowboyNeal is a plausible option even in non-Slashdot concepts 15:21:51 such as "what's your favourite standard Slashdot poll option" 15:23:40 * ehird attempts to make linux swap into an hfs+ partition to remove it 15:24:18 failed :-( 15:24:44 haha 15:24:48 the referee's comments came back from the (3,2) Turing machine paper 15:24:56 and one of them attacked me for numbering conjectures starting at 0 15:25:28 haha 15:25:36 NDA, I assume? because I'd love to hear that 15:25:48 Well, it is true that this Alex Smith is a bit of a queer 15:25:50 well, I haven't signed an NDA 15:25:57 they said that Conway could get away with it but I couldn't 15:26:05 :-D 15:26:13 ais523: are they trying to reject it on that premise? 15:26:17 no 15:26:20 aww 15:26:23 it was the standard reject-with-feedback 15:26:23 would be funny if they did 15:26:25 ah 15:26:36 ais523: wait, wasn't it guaranteed to be in some journal? 15:26:40 wolfram said so anyway 15:26:43 which is the journal method of saying that they want to accept it, but are going to force you to make the changes rather than doing it yourself 15:26:46 maybe. try with the square root as well. i guess you can decompose it. 15:26:56 and it's wolfram's journal, he has a vested interest in having it accepted 15:26:59 (wrong channel) 15:27:01 ah 15:27:03 "mith's Proof (to be published in Complex Systems):" 15:27:12 compelx system's is wolfram's then? 15:27:15 http://www.complex-systems.com/ 15:27:18 considerng that automata 15:27:19 yep 15:27:21 *automaton 15:27:47 I also like the way the referee complains about some of my subsidiary minor results being irrelevant 15:27:53 ais523: http://blog.wolfram.com/images/swolfram/turing_rule.gif <-- this is 2,3? 15:27:55 maybe, but if I can establish a stronger result I may as well 15:28:00 looks like one of the 256 automata 15:28:00 * ais523 looks 15:28:10 Looks like it 15:28:12 that's a compressed version of 2,3's output 15:28:17 right, but that graphic 15:28:25 #ubuntu is so useless 15:28:29 in particular, they only took the steps at which the turing tape head set a record for going left 15:28:33 it's just idiots and stupid qusetions and flood and no help 15:28:40 ehird: I agree, it's more useful when I'm on there helping people 15:28:42 which is rarely 15:28:46 oi, get in there :P 15:29:01 it's disappointing that the average competence level goes up when I ask for help and stick around later... 15:29:23 Whoa! 15:29:25 Calamari is in there. 15:29:31 He just asked a question. 15:29:48 maybe I should join, but that would distract me 15:30:03 What's the easiest way to get an Ubuntu system with kde 4.2, from scratch? 15:30:07 was my question 15:30:45 * ais523 vaguely wonders what would happen if you installed Debian minimal web-install, pointed the repos at kubuntu intrepid proposed, and did a dist-upgrade 15:30:59 it'd work, but probably not as sleek as a desktop release 15:31:42 wow, wolfram is more on crack than I realised 15:31:42 No doubt it’ll be possible to find much better compilers, that make much better code. 15:31:42 And that’ll be interesting. Perhaps one day there’ll even be practical molecular computers built from this very 2,3 Turing machine. 15:31:51 no, there is no fucking way the 2,3 machine is practical, stop smoking 15:31:59 you're hurting my brain cells 15:32:07 everything in kubuntu is depended on by the kubuntu-desktop package, IIRC 15:32:12 ehird: I agree, I think 15:32:21 ais523: isn't there a minimal ubuntu install? 15:32:22 O(2^2^n) is not practical from anyone's point of view 15:32:30 ehird: there's the ubuntu alternate install CD 15:32:33 which does more or less anything 15:32:35 that's not minimal 15:32:40 the CD itself isn't, no 15:32:43 ais523: can you tweak it to install from another repo 15:32:46 but I suspect minimal install would be in the options somewhere 15:32:59 [[We don’t have to carefully build things up with engineering. We can just go out and search in the computational universe, and find things like universal computers—that are simple enough that we can imagine making them out of molecules.]] 15:33:03 err, you freaking invented them 15:33:12 you didn't find them in the goddamn bushes 15:33:17 anyway, I think by far the easiest way is to install kubuntu intrepid, set the repo to -proposed and install updates 15:33:23 that's the way it's meant to work 15:33:31 alrighty 15:33:50 * ehird clicks 64 bit download and feels smug 15:33:57 REAL CPUS lolz 15:34:20 agh, slow download 15:34:25 * ehird gets it from germany instead 15:34:29 germany have fast interwebs 15:34:35 i hate mirror selections 15:34:37 JUST PICK ONE FOR ME 15:34:52 yes, I normally use German mirrors, either that or the one at Oxford University 15:35:01 picking one closest to you is in fact the worst thing you can do... 15:35:03 but the Oxford mirror doesn't have all the packages I think 15:35:10 because 15:35:12 ? 15:35:22 they're always slower than ones from countries just a few hops away from you 15:35:34 ah, bandwidth? 15:35:53 ais523: It's because more people from the UK access sites in the UK, so the UK tubes are clogged :P 15:36:31 aha 15:36:33 500 KB/sec 15:36:45 from Italy's GARR/CILEA mirror service 15:37:01 ehird: actually, that bullshit could be correct depending on how the peering agreements are set up 15:37:10 although probably in this case it isn't 15:37:40 it's the kind of thing that's totally wrong, but calculations you can make from it tend to be right in practice 15:37:49 it leads you to the right results in the wrong way 15:38:42 ais523: by the way, I did some research with #lisp the other day 15:38:46 Symbolics do still sell lisp machines 15:38:51 although obviously they don't _make_ new ones any more 15:39:01 you have to contact their sales address 15:39:04 (email :P) 15:39:12 and shipping makes buying prohibitive unless you live close 15:39:19 ais523: http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt 15:39:28 the neweest machine they have = $3500 15:39:40 one down (runs on a modified old Mac) = $3200 15:39:44 that's not that expensive 15:39:48 same as above but less spec = $1200 15:39:49 for something that specialised 15:39:54 really old = $675 15:39:59 and yes, they're good prices 15:40:15 but you have to go and get it yourself really, otherwise shipping would be crazy 15:40:37 ais523: something I found amusing -- their sales guy commented on the torrent for their OpenGenera development environment (ported to linux) 15:40:37 how's your VHDLing going? 15:40:40 which had all the leaked source code 15:40:43 dkschmidt at 2007-08-15 02:24 CET: 15:40:48 Congratulations on downloading the finest software development environment ever created. If you want to find out more about Genera or would like to have a Symbolics Lisp Machine, check out the Symbolics website at www.symbolics.com or contact sales@symbolics.com. 15:40:49 a true salesman 15:40:57 yes, classic 15:41:04 and probably the best reaction 15:41:24 yeah, it's not like symbolics are gonna be operating at a profit these days 15:41:39 nothing they sell interests more than about 100 people in the world 15:41:52 symbolics.com is the oldest registered domain, BTW 15:41:55 registered in 1985 15:42:02 and it has run continuously 15:42:14 well, .com 15:42:18 there might have been .orgs before that 15:42:23 and possibly .nets for infrastructure 15:42:24 not sure 15:42:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:3600-front.jpg 15:42:53 the $3500 compy 15:43:01 apparently they're very, very lou 15:43:01 d 15:43:10 most people put them in another room and hook up the terminal with a long cable, IIRC 15:43:35 heh 15:43:38 what makes them so noisy? 15:43:40 wait, no 15:43:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Symbolics3640.JPG 15:43:44 that's the $3500 one 15:43:48 ais523: well, they're 80s hardware 15:43:54 and they aren't micropcs, they predate that 15:43:59 minicomputers 15:44:00 ? 15:44:02 err, yes 15:44:12 ais523: I think they were the first "single-user" machines after the mainframe boom 15:44:29 so it was just the power fit into the small space and stuff like that 15:46:14 ah, that's better 15:46:18 Hm? 15:46:23 for some reason Konqueror didn't have a "back" button by default 15:46:27 haha 15:46:27 I reset it to defaults, then it did 15:46:34 so either configuration borkage or packaging borkage 15:46:48 funnily enough, the reason lisp machines were single-user was because it was easier to implement 15:46:54 and let them put in less safety checks 15:46:58 (to avoid, e.g. people crashing it) 15:47:01 reminds me of DOS 15:48:19 i think I might write a program to generate tons of combinators 15:49:01 ais523: by the way, I refound ninjacode yesterday and sgeo told me to revive it 15:49:02 should I? 15:49:09 well, KDE4.2 still seems to have the usual huge set of settings 15:49:15 ehird: yes if you think you can make it work 15:49:15 oh dear :P 15:49:23 ais523: does it have gtk/qt ones 15:49:27 also, I think I can 15:49:32 on the other hand, I rather like that, for me it's what makes KDE KDE 15:50:04 ninjacode linecounter: 15:50:05 0=~1+.' C~. 15:50:07 remember that? :D 15:50:11 er wait 15:50:12 no 15:50:14 0=~1+.' C~ 15:50:27 {'{C:.'}C.}'{C:.'}C. 15:50:29 quine 15:50:34 hmm... how short can I get the linecounter in Perl? 15:50:38 (same principle as underload quine) 15:50:46 say scalar<> 15:50:46 12 chars in Perl 15:50:53 how many is it in ninjacode? 15:50:54 oh that's not the same 15:51:05 ais523: this adds line counts 15:51:05 a\nb\nc -> 1 a\n2 b\n3 c 15:51:06 oh, what's the ninjacode doing? 15:51:07 numbering lines? 15:51:09 ah 15:51:28 perl -pe '$_="$..$_"' 15:51:32 I think 15:51:37 perl -pe '$_="$.. $_"' 15:51:38 0=~1+.' C~ <- = is like perl -p, it runs the rest of the program with the next line on TOS, then prints TOS and goes a gain 15:51:52 ~ is swap, . is print, 'c is the num of character c, C prints a character out from its number 15:52:01 from that it should be fairly clear how that works 15:52:12 ais523: so as an actual program: 15:52:15 #!perl -p 15:52:20 $_="$.. $_" 15:52:29 yes 15:52:32 ninjacode wins hands-down, then 15:52:36 although, = as a filter is kind of stupid 15:52:39 as it should be equality 15:52:46 whatever, it's the principle of the thing 15:53:17 I wonder if I should add bitwise-XOR to Underlambda as a one-char operator not a library keyword? 15:53:29 that way, it could be used for equality tests the same way subtraction can be used for greater-than 15:53:38 heh 15:53:41 (subtraction in Underlambda saturates at 0) 15:54:00 kubuntu downloaded! 15:54:05 the 64 bit version works fine right? 15:54:18 yes 15:54:45 ais523: parsing ninjacode is very TC, by the way 15:54:59 as you can extend the parser in arbitrary ways, and it always picks the longest matching symbol name 15:55:00 specifically 15:55:08 parsing underlambda will be relatively trivial, but not as easy as underload 15:55:10 {+ is {+ if {+ is defined, otherwise it's {, + 15:55:18 an exception is made for alphanumerics 15:55:22 in that foo is always foo 15:55:27 although foo+ can be foo+ or foo,+ 15:55:29 ehird: if {+ and +% are defined, but {+% isn't, what does {+% parse as? 15:55:31 and, 15:55:39 you can require libraries that do this kind of stuff to the parser at any time 15:55:42 including in e.g. conditionals 15:55:52 thus, you CAN compile it, but only if you disallow tricksy includes 15:55:59 but full ninjacode is Very Highly Unparsable 15:56:04 you can't even parse a file at a time 15:56:10 it has to be one token at a time 15:56:17 ais523: {+, % 15:56:45 ehird: because? 15:56:49 ais523: it sees {+, all going good, then %, oops {+% isn't defined, break here, {+, % 15:56:54 ah, ok 15:57:04 what about {+%} when {+ and +%} are defined? 15:57:04 it parses left-to-right, top-to-bottom because the syntax can change at any time 15:57:05 so this is consistent 15:57:07 {+, %, } 15:57:09 presumably 15:57:16 ais523: {+, %, }, yep 15:57:27 but generally you shouldn't use names that aren't defined :P 15:58:19 ugh, the only blank cd I can find is dusty as hell 15:58:23 do they have a default meaning? 15:58:40 ais523: trigger an error 15:58:41 ehird: ugh, you mean Macs can't install operating systems without rebooting? 15:58:48 lol wat :D 15:59:03 given that you're installing onto a different partition, in theory it ought to be possible 15:59:07 using virtualisation or something 15:59:15 ais523: that'd mess up hardware detection 15:59:22 * ehird just uses a dvd-writable 15:59:26 I feel kind of bad, but I have like 100 :P 16:00:12 ugh, they're in unopenable packaging 16:01:51 there we go 16:02:03 BUUUUUUUUURN 16:02:19 putting 700 MB on a 4.7GB disk feels kind of silly 16:02:21 :| 16:02:22 * ehird <- silly 16:02:31 you'll still have the rest left to put things on 16:02:50 ais523: well, yes, this is a rewritable disk, but err 16:03:00 you know that regular CDs/DVDs only burn once right? 16:03:03 ehird: wrong 16:03:08 I've burnt a CD-R more than once 16:03:12 o_O 16:03:12 you can burn into the unused space 16:03:16 unsupported-ly, I assume. 16:03:19 although you can't overwrite what you've already burntt 16:03:21 it is supported 16:03:28 I did this using Windows XP's out-of-the-box CD burner 16:04:03 when accessing a recordable CD, drives look past the end of the burnt area to see if anything's been burnt there 16:04:11 so that the multiple-burning thing works 16:04:23 you lose some space (a few KB I think) in overhead every time you burn, though 16:04:57 I hope the burn/reboot cycle is fixed sometime 16:05:08 what fix do you imagine? 16:05:11 like, have special hardware that you copy an ISO to, and it mounts it, somehow 16:05:19 so you just download the ISO, click, reboot 16:05:22 and it's there as a drive 16:05:44 maybe a very small virtualiser in firmware 16:05:52 mm 16:07:27 13:17:35 important decision: what should we parse the code into? 16:07:27 13:18:51 ais523: CLASSES 16:07:27 13:19:01 LISTS 16:07:27 13:19:06 MORE NORMALIZED STRINGS 16:07:48 FILESYSTEMS! 16:08:06 FUNCTIONS! 16:08:43 COMPONENTALIZED VISUAL ACTIVEX COMPONENTS! 16:09:12 CPUS FABRICATED ON-THE-FLY TO PROCESS THE DATA! 16:09:24 KITTENS! 16:09:31 because everyone likes kittens, obviously 16:09:34 MP3 PLAYERS! 16:09:40 CHAIRS!!! 16:09:50 all built to one design 16:09:56 the errors in each one from the design represent the bit patterns 16:10:00 of the in-memory representation 16:10:01 of the parse tree 16:10:08 heh, reminds me of that esolang which is disguised as pip 16:10:09 *pi 16:10:51 Righty ho, I will now reboot. 16:11:01 I expect to be conversing with you while installing Kubuntu. 16:11:07 If I am not, I will flame Ubuntu when I return. 16:11:09 yay for liveCDs 16:11:17 FLAME PREPARATION -> 16:12:35 FLAME ON 16:13:11 well there's a nice homomorphism from code to the empty program. 16:13:25 indeed there is 16:13:42 it even preserves sequential composition 16:14:13 well for some languages that is 16:14:33 it may also preserve quine-ness 16:15:36 yeah 16:15:40 so, that's my suggestion. 16:16:13 and it can be used to strip comments 16:16:48 not to mention the compression. 16:17:21 it also gives a 100% reduction in execution time 16:17:32 yeah 16:17:44 well asymptotically 16:18:32 oh and it gives very good encryption 16:19:01 you'd really wonder why it isn't used more often 16:19:38 (guaranteed unbreakable, no silly P=NP assumptions) 16:19:44 oerjan: unfortunately, on some programs it introduces bugs where they don't do what they're meant to do 16:19:47 */= 16:19:53 ah. 16:20:09 well that's true, on the other hand it also removes most bugs 16:22:25 ais523: Disappointing. 16:22:27 It booted up fine, I selected try out, it booted into KDE. My mouse and keyboard are then sterile. (It only worked at bootup because of bios compatibility layer stuff) 16:22:40 pity 16:22:45 Fixable, I am sure. 16:22:51 But not very out of the box. 16:23:06 I used to use a wireless mouse, and it worked just fine in Ubuntu 16:23:09 -!- k2 has joined. 16:23:14 but threw it away because I was bored of replacing the batteries 16:23:37 -!- kar8nga has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:23:39 this mightymouse has fallen on the floor many times and its battery life is painfully short because of that 16:23:39 -!- k2 has changed nick to kar8nga. 16:23:41 also, scratches 16:23:56 it's still better than other mice, though... 16:24:44 ugh, they recommend rEFIt for booting 16:24:48 but rEFIt slows down the boot and is slow 16:27:23 [16:27:18] i cant under stand ..................................................its tu tu that ,,,,,,, 16:27:29 popular channels are painful. 16:28:45 ehird: are you online from Mac OS X atm? 16:28:48 yep 16:29:00 * ehird bets he gets an answer starting "First, click" 16:30:16 http://www.geekaholic.org/2008/04/good-bye-gentoo-hello-leopard.html <-- worst april fools ever 16:30:32 it's a reasonable, well-thought out post on why switching to leopard could make sense. ha! ha! HHAHAHA! 16:32:26 ais523: welp, looks like I need to use my usb mouse/kb 16:33:23 yeah you should definitely use your mouse to kickban umar 16:33:28 :D 16:33:44 ais523: do you know how horrific rEFIt is? 16:33:51 I've seen it 16:34:04 it seems slightly pointless given that it just chains into GRUB for anything but boot-to-Mac 16:34:07 it looks pretty, though 16:34:10 first, you get a horrible screen on startup with the kind of icons linux users make that they think look like os x because they have lens flares on them 16:34:14 then, to boot into linux, 16:34:16 it BOOTS INTO LILO 16:34:17 seriously 16:34:23 it goes rEFIt -> lilo -> linux 16:34:30 yes, I know about the chaining 16:34:36 it's awful. awful awful awful. 16:34:36 the example I saw was worse, though 16:34:38 and lilo is awful. 16:34:50 hmmm 16:34:52 it was refit -> mac os x, or alternatively you could choose windows or linux 16:35:04 and whichever you chose, it went to a grub menu where you chose windows/linux 16:35:07 maybe I could make bootcamp work... 16:35:17 that uses the regular mac bootloader 16:35:27 and lets you hold down option at the bootup screen to choose mac / "windows" 16:35:28 and defaults to mac 16:35:35 = same speed, no lilo, etc 16:35:45 yep 16:35:46 seems it works 16:35:49 ^_^ 16:35:51 ugh 16:35:52 I hate that smiley 16:35:54 why did I type it 16:37:22 I like how leopard comes with boot camp 16:37:32 how many other OSes include fully-developed tools to run other OSes? 16:37:57 well, there's Wubi, I'm not sure what you count that as though 16:38:03 does that come with windows 16:38:04 no 16:38:20 ok, I'm going to boot into kubuntu livecd again to delete the swap partition, reboot into OS X, run boot camp, then install kubuntu 16:38:25 I like the way that the Windows and Linux filesystems each think the other's filesystem is inside their own 16:38:26 as soon as I get my USB stuffs 16:38:36 ais523: klein filesystem 16:38:44 yep 16:38:49 wubi is stupid as a long-term system, anyway 16:39:00 although physically the linux system's inside the windows system, as the windows system ends up in /dev 16:39:05 and needs mounting 16:39:13 and why do you say that about wubi? 16:39:24 because you're just living on top of windows 16:39:26 = overhead 16:39:29 = second-class citizen 16:39:47 it's not living on top 16:40:12 it's an entirely separate OS, it just installs itself into the location on the disk where windows would expect applications to be installed, and adds registry entries 16:40:20 if you boot into linux with wubi, windows has nothing to do with anything 16:40:21 right 16:40:22 but it's NTFS 16:40:24 apart from the filesystem being ntfs 16:41:46 ugh, perl.org's still down 16:41:47 "klein filesystem"? 16:42:51 eine kleine filesystem 16:44:03 testing 16:44:04 are filesystems really female? 16:44:10 no they are neutral 16:44:19 i thought it was some kinda term 16:44:22 okay, horrible usb kb & mouse in operation 16:44:23 for that phenomenon 16:44:27 but google knows it not. 16:44:40 klein bottle 16:44:43 oh 16:45:36 okay guyz 16:45:37 livecd --> 16:49:18 -!- k2 has joined. 16:49:24 -!- kar8nga has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:49:28 -!- k2 has changed nick to kar8nga. 16:54:52 -!- ehirdbuntu has joined. 16:55:11 great success! 16:55:12 install time 16:56:31 no wait 16:56:32 gparted time 16:56:33 ehirdbuntu: is the wireless working too? 16:56:37 wait I don't have gparted 16:56:41 ais523: I use a wired connection 16:58:00 -!- ais523 has quit. 16:58:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:58:27 there, swap partition deleted, os x time so I can run boot camp -> 16:59:16 no wait, it wants a root partition to continue, argh! 16:59:52 ais523: can you type hash-kubuntu for me? there's no hash key here... 16:59:59 #kubuntu 17:00:02 and isn't it on shift-3? 17:00:10 that's where it is on a US keyboard 17:00:21 nope 17:00:23 grah! 17:00:26 it wants me to join ubuntu 17:00:28 the proxy users channel 17:00:29 not kubuntu... 17:01:43 ais523: do you know how to partition edit on kubuntu livecd without installing? :P 17:01:58 not off the top of my head 17:02:23 also, the new startup menu is very nice 17:02:31 it's a blend of the windows start menu and the os x spotlight 17:02:31 ehirdbuntu: try ktparted rather than gparted? 17:02:38 *qtparted 17:02:44 not installed either 17:02:45 the gnome partition editor is unlikely to be on a KDE system 17:02:55 the installer has one 17:02:56 what about just parted? 17:03:11 works, but has the hideous console interface :-D 17:03:32 eh I'll use it 17:04:43 how do I save changes in parted? 17:05:21 I don't know 17:05:32 do you want me to look it up? 17:05:38 nope, I figured it out 17:05:41 also, I have google here too 17:05:53 reboot --> 17:09:19 -!- ehirdbuntu has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 17:14:31 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 17:15:09 -!- Wamanuz2 has left (?). 17:19:13 ais523: how much space do you think I should give ubuntu? 17:19:15 boot camp gives 5gb by default, which would leave me ~3gb of space for documents 17:19:29 10gb for ubuntu would leave 64gb free on OS X 17:19:31 vs 74gb now, ofc 17:19:56 well, it depends on how many documents you're storing on each side 17:20:05 5gb seems about right, you'll want your documents on the mac side, probably 17:20:10 likely not much on linux, I'm only going to be using it for coding and messing about 17:20:17 yeah, 10gb would leave more room for expansion though 17:20:22 and still leave me a lot on os x side 17:23:48 I'll go for 10gb 17:28:23 parittioneratering 17:28:28 partitioning takes far too long 17:28:36 I'm not surprised 17:28:46 it has to move a lot of thigns around 17:31:43 nope, no moving 17:31:49 all the space it's using was free 17:31:58 hmm it says you need 32-bit windows 17:32:05 it should work with 64 bit linux 17:32:05 meh 17:32:09 restarty-> 17:35:18 -!- Mony has joined. 17:38:32 -!- ehirdbuntu has joined. 17:38:43 install go 17:38:54 what are you going to talk about during the install? 17:39:18 i thought tic-tac-toe was the game of choice these days 17:39:45 ais523: the install. 17:39:50 ok 17:40:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:40:28 what swap space is recommended? I have 2.5gb ram 17:40:33 half yoru ram, right? 17:40:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:40:59 half your ram is usual 17:41:26 nowadays it doesn't really matter if you set it to 0 or your entire drive, until the point where you run out of memory altogether 17:42:03 ext3 is the recommended fs still, right? 17:42:11 yep 17:42:19 although it'll probably be ext4 in a year, once that's stable 17:43:44 * ehirdbuntu resizes 10gb hd to be 10gb-(2.5/2)gb 17:43:51 fun fun 17:43:55 i recently learned to play infinite board tic tac toe in my head, but somehow i think it's less impressive on irc 17:44:07 oklopol: have you ever played 4 dimensional tic tac toe? 17:44:14 it works pretty well on a 4x4x4x4 board 17:44:29 ais523: i've played infinite dimensional tic tac toe. 17:44:36 I wondered about that 17:44:43 but limiting the size of the board makes it work better 17:44:49 i had a bot for that here once 17:44:53 maybe. 17:44:58 as for infinite board, how many in a row do you play? 5, like the japanese do? 17:45:06 * oerjan vaguely recalls that. 17:45:10 5 17:45:11 they play on a 19x19 board but it may as well be infinite, players rarely reach the edges 17:45:17 the japanese and the finnish 17:45:24 and do you play the 3-3 / 4-4 barring rules? 17:45:26 no one plays the 3x3 tic tac toe, it's stupid 17:45:32 err 17:45:35 i don't know what those are 17:45:45 it's a technique to remove the first player advantage 17:45:51 nh 17:46:06 a four is any position where you could add one counter and get five in a row 17:46:29 "remove it", has that been proven? 17:46:33 a three is any position where you can make a four which has two locations to add the final counter by adding one counter 17:46:37 that all games are draws with it 17:46:41 oklopol: it doesn't manage it perfectly, but it reduces it somewhat 17:46:45 right 17:47:05 i mean it's a solved game, so could've been proven 17:47:05 the rules say that the first player (but not the second player) can't play a move that simultaneously creates two threes, and can't play a move that simultaneously creates two fours 17:47:21 apparently the first player still has an advantage even after that 17:47:36 so some groups also play that the first player can't get 6 or more in a row 17:47:45 heh. 17:48:00 well i suck at the game, just like i suck in most games 17:48:08 (like integration, grrrr) 17:51:15 quick hostname! 17:51:28 I'm thinking killer butterfly, or criminal lightbulb, or kitten. 17:51:32 fthagn! 17:51:35 or kitten with attached laser 17:51:38 oerjan: haha yes 17:51:47 thankees 17:52:00 er, fhtagn 17:52:01 why fthagn? 17:52:09 or fhtagn? 17:52:12 ais523: cthulhu fhtagn, duh 17:52:17 linux is dark magic 17:52:36 "cthulhu sneezes" 17:53:17 this is disturbing, the number of google hits is about the same for those 17:53:32 hi 17:53:47 what, people can't spell "fhtagn"? well yeah that is pretty disturbing 17:53:50 also 17:54:01 i have a bad feeling the shop closes at 20 and not at 21... 17:54:13 i mean it has to, since it's nearly 20 already 17:54:19 ext3 is the recommended fs still, right? <-- in case you are interested I usually use ext3 for / and /boot, and xfs for the rest (/home /var /usr, and /opt is symlinked to /usr/opt) 17:54:32 yeah i'm doing one partition. 17:54:33 that's how shops work, they close when you decide to go to them. 17:54:35 ah ok 17:54:43 ehirdbuntu, I usually use LVM too :) 17:54:44 AnMaster: well, even if you're correct, and you probably are, ehirdbuntu is going to disagree with you on principle 17:55:39 ais523, well I find that xfs has what I want from ext4 but is a lot more well tested and stable. Stuff like defrag and such. Not that xfs gets as fragmented as ext3... 17:55:55 and not that ext3 gets fragmented enough to matter anyway 17:56:04 and last I looked online defrag was still not completed for ext4 17:56:15 it's funny how ais523 has started commenting like that just after ehird actually started deserving it much less. maybe it's just so ais523 wouldn't be right, dunno, still funny. 17:56:15 besides, it's well known that tar is a pretty effective defragmenter 17:56:18 ais523, depends, I had some partitions manage that fine, while other got super-fragmented 17:56:20 tarball your filesystem, untar it again 17:56:40 i mean he did not disagree with AnMaster on principle there for instance 17:57:09 also there is no single best FS for everyone IMO. People use computers in different ways 17:57:12 and have different needs 17:57:16 yes 17:57:20 oklopol: stop talking bullshit! 17:57:23 although I imagine most of them are better than bffs 17:58:03 ais523, however I can say ext3 gets fragmented for /usr/portage on gentoo. Lots of small files (so I use a smaller than usual block size for it on xfs to not waste space). 17:58:05 oerjan: i cannot, i like noticing patterns in how people respond to patterns in other people. 17:58:08 is updated with rsync 17:58:43 * AnMaster checks something 17:58:43 hm wp uses fhtagn 17:58:53 find /usr/portage -type f | wc -l 17:58:53 111952 17:59:02 du -sh /usr/portage 17:59:02 253M /usr/portage 17:59:23 ais523, that is on xfs since with ext3 it got very slow and fragmented 18:00:06 also I have a special partition for it, due to the very different usage pattern for it compared to the rest of /usr 18:00:21 why is portage directly under /usr by the way? 18:00:39 ais523, why is the default location /usr/ports on freebsd? 18:00:44 for it's ports tree 18:00:52 I'd expect it to be inside /usr/share somewhere, or maybe even /var 18:00:54 both fill the same purpose basically 18:01:04 although /usr makes more sense I suppose as you're editing /usr anyway 18:01:33 ais523, you could change the location in /etc/make.conf 18:01:35 if you wanted 18:01:38 those who know me will know i hate all filesystems. 18:01:47 even git? 18:01:49 ehird, what do you suggest instead? 18:01:57 ais523: git is nice ... for a filesystem. 18:01:58 err is git a file system? 18:02:02 yes 18:02:06 a user-space one, albeit 18:02:09 that rides on top of another 18:02:13 it has all the features a filesystem needs 18:02:17 so how is it not a filesystem? 18:02:36 AnMaster: as for what I suggest instead -- I'll elaborate when I have my regular kb back 18:02:37 ais523, one thing IMO: It needs to run on another file system for the actual data storage 18:02:44 you can't mkfs.git 18:02:54 but I guess that depends on how you define fs 18:02:57 unionfs and such 18:03:09 so yeah it could be considered a fs 18:03:24 well, the working tree isn't git 18:03:26 ehird, kb? knowledge base? kickban? 18:03:26 git is in .git/ 18:03:42 instead of storing its metadata in sectors, it stores them in host files 18:03:44 AnMaster: keyboard. 18:03:47 ah 18:03:48 i'm using a usb one for kubuntu 18:03:51 I see 18:05:33 ehird, hm still changing from using n files to 1 raw linear block device is not that trivial... Since suddenly you need to handle "next block is already used for something else". Which is handled by the filesystem otherwise. In fact it is one of the important tasks for a "traditional" file system. 18:05:46 look in a .git directory sometime 18:05:48 so I guess it is a filesystem more like unionfs is one 18:05:56 you'll see the likeness to an fs, almost certainly 18:06:00 ehird, I did once, but yeah it was ages ago 18:06:11 plus, the general structure is fs-like 18:06:14 sure, it has vcs commands on top 18:06:18 but if you look at the primitive docs 18:06:21 it's like super-fsck 18:06:24 raw fs manipulation 18:06:25 $ ls ~/src/pahole/.git/ 18:06:25 FETCH_HEAD HEAD ORIG_HEAD branches config description hooks index info logs objects refs 18:06:26 hm? 18:06:33 poke around the files 18:06:39 e.g. objects, refs 18:06:42 those are the most fs like parts 18:06:44 iirc 18:07:40 $ ls objects/ 18:07:40 00 05 10 18 20 2a 32 37 3f 44 4d 56 60 [... more of the same cut here, lots more, but don't want to spam too much on irc ...] info pack 18:07:55 try cat as well as ls :P 18:08:03 BRING ME HIS HEAD 18:08:16 ehird, from file (and I suspect it is wrong): 18:08:17 objects/ad/635812a04ef5b45dddc8386e0b9dbe7bc56435: VAX COFF executable - version 8256 18:08:17 objects/ad/b9d370d66c4ea6655c61e17a187b1eaa804dea: VAX COFF executable not stripped 18:08:17 objects/b1/145b6715205d42d6a1f4ce9ddd7a061018be0e: VAX COFF executable - version 21221 18:08:20 no way 18:08:24 haha 18:08:28 vax cough 18:08:36 pahole is a kernel.org project, lots of source, no executables 18:08:44 so I guess compressed in some way 18:09:04 open an editor on them :P 18:09:10 AnMaster: that version looks like VMS version number to me 18:09:16 21221... that's one heavily modified file 18:09:17 :-D 18:09:37 ehird, file thinks everything in objects/[:xdigit:]/* is various variants of VAX COFF executable 18:09:57 ehirdbuntu: well with all that coughing there have probably been a constant stream of virus on it 18:10:07 objects/2d/8c3aff822c2d0c924600e0ebe82a18df28013e: VAX COFF executable not stripped - version 24267 18:10:10 *es 18:10:11 objects/24/d209abe394af6b364e07e78a8712efb80fc17c: VAX COFF executable 18:10:13 and so on 18:10:29 ehird, the stuff in objects/pack/: 18:10:35 objects/pack/pack-33e576f64aedf6aed156f3ccdabdbc445b9317b5.idx: data 18:10:35 objects/pack/pack-33e576f64aedf6aed156f3ccdabdbc445b9317b5.pack: Quake I or II world or extension 18:10:35 objects/pack/pack-873f1ade3da35d4dfb915611ffd24243e73f0025.idx: data 18:10:35 objects/pack/pack-873f1ade3da35d4dfb915611ffd24243e73f0025.pack: Quake I or II world or extension 18:10:36 :D 18:10:50 kernel devs hide their quake modz in git files, yep 18:10:57 ehird, either git is worse than I thought or... 18:11:00 hah 18:11:15 see: reflections on trusting trust 18:11:18 they did that with the git sources 18:11:22 did you say I should look at refs too? 18:11:23 or? 18:11:23 to add a quake-mod-stashing system 18:11:26 yes 18:11:36 $ ls refs/ 18:11:36 heads remotes tags 18:11:37 mhm 18:11:57 -!- Corun has joined. 18:12:12 ehirdbuntu, btw I haven't done anything but some git pull on this repo, no commits or such 18:12:23 same as if you comitted a lot 18:12:26 since your commits = everyone else's 18:12:43 well refs is all ASCII 18:13:10 http://steike.com/code/useless/zip-file-quine/ :) 18:13:18 refs/tags/v1.0 refs/tags/v1.1 refs/tags/v1.2 refs/tags/v1.3 refs/tags/v1.4 refs/tags/v1.5 refs/tags/v1.6 refs/remotes/origin/HEAD refs/remotes/origin/master refs/heads/master 18:13:25 that's all 18:13:37 seems to contain revision IDS 18:13:38 IDs* 18:13:47 restart into ewwbuntu hopefully -> 18:13:48 sha256 style I think? 18:16:39 -!- ehirdbuntu has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 18:25:22 -!- oerjan has quit ("Possibly!"). 18:34:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:37:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:43:32 hi ais523 18:43:34 does konversation look kde3-style to you too/ 18:43:36 :\ 18:45:00 ping 18:46:58 ais523: 18:49:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:05:22 bbl food 19:06:18 o 19:23:42 [19:23] !hi | rapha 19:23:43 [19:23] rapha: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu! 19:23:45 {{welcome}} 19:27:06 From that screenshot, it definitely looks KDE3-style :P 19:27:26 ? 19:27:37 woo apple keyboard works 19:27:39 now: mouse 19:29:49 Why would anybody voluntarily use an Apple keyboard ... I've never used an Apple keyboard that wasn't a miserable pile of crap. 19:30:10 ... wow ... poor you. The 2006 and 2007 apple keyboards are absolutely perfect. 19:30:20 Sure, every one before that was god-awful... 19:30:29 But these are the best keyboards I've ever used (and I've used a model M.) 19:31:02 Whee, mouse works too. 19:31:46 I don't exactly know what keyboards Apple was cranking out each year :P 19:31:52 :P 19:32:23 Picture? URL? Something? 19:34:20 Picture: 19:34:39 GregorR: http://www.purelygadgets.co.uk/images/user/products/Apple-keyboard.jpg 19:34:41 not the best picture 19:34:42 but oh well 19:34:47 (the keys are shallower than they look there...) 19:35:35 Well, that looks very much like a keyboard :P 19:35:42 Verily. 19:36:06 255 package upgrade GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 19:37:53 Because your system stores the number of updates in an unsigned char? :P 19:38:01 Haha 19:38:15 Unsigned car 19:38:40 I drive a signed car. 19:38:41 I signed it. 19:38:45 Oh sweet 19:38:49 I want a car signed by gregor 19:38:57 Who wouldn't? 19:39:09 Your mom. 19:39:15 (HAHAHAHA) 19:39:15 D-8 19:39:43 is that a really tiny penis 19:39:54 ... with an inverted head? 19:39:55 Ow 19:40:05 yes 19:45:04 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:46:36 http://entrian.com/goto/ 19:46:47 old 19:48:30 reboot time 19:50:12 No COBOL style ALTER? Or am I hallucinating tha there's an ALTER? 19:50:33 ...there's a COBOL 2002 standard? 19:55:21 ^ there must be a cdr joke somewhere 19:55:28 cdr? 19:55:31 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 20:01:53 ... wow ... poor you. The 2006 and 2007 apple keyboards are absolutely perfect. <-- what happened during 2008? 20:02:50 oh and is http://www.purelygadgets.co.uk/images/user/products/Apple-keyboard.jpg a slimmed model or a more full size usable one? 20:03:22 in that pic is is hard to see 20:03:27 since it is from right above 20:03:31 Fact : French mac keyboards have , instead of . on the number pad 20:03:36 Which is retarded 20:03:51 Slereah_, Fact: So does all Swedish keyboards I ever seen 20:03:54 including this one 20:03:56 hey ehird want to take over A Nomic 20:04:07 since we use , instead of . for decimal point 20:04:58 I want . on my numpad :< 20:05:16 AnMaster: That's full size 20:05:18 size of a regular kb 20:05:40 and the ridges between keys are nice, I almost never mistype 20:05:52 ehird, and how far does keys go when you press them? on most laptops they don't got down as much as on classical PC keyboards 20:06:05 more than laptops 20:06:11 they go down quite a bit, more than regular pc keyboards 20:06:19 they're specially weighted 20:06:31 but it's quite a quiet keyboard, unlike the model M, still tactile though 20:07:07 * FireFly wants a flat-keyed Das Keyboard Ultimate with quiet buttons 20:07:14 ... and a pony 20:07:30 ehird, sounds nice 20:07:41 are they as nice as those clicking keyboards? 20:07:58 AnMaster: = model Ms, yes, I'd say easier to type with too 20:08:01 while I hate the clicking sound the tactile experience was good 20:08:04 since you have to quite hit the keys with model m-s 20:08:25 AnMaster: unfortunately, you can't buy those any more, there's a new model out 20:08:32 which looks nicer but has less tall keys 20:08:48 well, actually, I have a spare one here iirc :-P 20:08:53 you could probably get one from ebay though 20:08:56 or similar 20:09:06 well a lot of keyboards has tend to go down when you just rest your hand and don't type, s o yes the extra force for model m-s is nice 20:09:14 for me, it is subjective of course 20:09:27 I can lie my hand on this kb and it doesn't press 20:09:36 it seems to be: hard, easy, hard 20:09:51 i.e., hard to initially press, easy to go down, then hard for the last bit 20:10:02 [20:09] i.e., hard to initially press, easy to go down, then hard for the last bit 20:10:06 context is for the weak 20:10:38 haha 20:11:55 okay, reboot into kde4.2 hopefully -> 20:21:12 Dear Kubuntu, 20:21:18 Please reconnect via wireless when you boot. Honestly. 20:21:21 It's not hard, goddammit! 20:22:06 Apart from that... Hey, this ain't bad. 20:22:11 by the way, until ehird joins ##Nomic, I'm going to talk about nomic in here 20:22:15 so it's in all your interests to get em to join 20:22:22 ais523 will complain at you. 20:22:56 * ehird installs firefox because konqueror is awful. 20:23:13 -!- k2 has joined. 20:23:24 -!- kar8nga has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:23:26 -!- k2 has changed nick to kar8nga. 20:23:35 comex: I see no nomic talk. 20:39:49 Pretty only things from Firefox I miss with Konqueror are proper sessions support, NoScript and that one site nickname extension... 20:40:25 I kind of dislike the "doesn't support shit" part. 20:42:41 jit 20:42:45 shit, linux font rendering is really terrible. 20:42:51 like really really awful 20:42:56 how so 20:43:07 compared to OS X? I want to rip my eyes out. 20:43:08 Multiple times. 20:44:15 ehird, got the wireless working yet? 20:44:41 They've always worked, it just forgets it at startup because it's stupid. 20:44:44 o 20:44:50 ehird, also about font rendering: depends 20:44:50 Well, I say always. 20:44:54 in binary distros: yes 20:44:57 I mean after I spent ages getting it working. 20:44:57 however 20:45:01 AnMaster: yer joking right 20:45:15 if you compile freetype from source you can enable an algorithm that apple patented 20:45:18 ah 20:45:21 binary distros disable it 20:45:26 because they don't like legal issues 20:45:28 AnMaster: screenshot of the result? 20:45:40 ehird, well there was some website comparing 20:45:42 * AnMaster googles 20:47:06 ehird, first: some background about the issue, it is related to hinter 20:47:08 http://www.freetype.org/patents.html 20:47:11 * ehird worries about machine; Linux doesn't seem to put the machine at rest like os x 20:47:13 the fan's always going 20:47:15 auto-hinter sucks ball 20:47:16 balls* 20:47:19 I agree about that 20:47:24 oh it would be better if it only sucked one ball 20:48:03 ehird, 5. at least 20:48:28 stop whirring machine :( 20:48:59 ehird, hm I'm not sure about such stuff. But probably it is just a case of finding the right setting 20:49:04 people keep saying turn off hinting in the google 20:49:05 and i rage at them 20:49:06 since I *don't* have a laptop... 20:49:15 because if you turn off hinting you can see the subpixel 20:49:16 s 20:49:18 AnMaster: err, nor I 20:49:27 oh right 20:49:31 well I don't have a mac 20:49:38 and this one has "one speed always fan" 20:49:49 I have dynamic cpu speed activated though 20:49:49 normally my fan is off 20:49:51 completely 20:49:57 ehird, lucky you 20:50:03 especially the GPU fan is loud 20:50:04 yeah, this is distracting :-P 20:50:06 in this computer 20:50:26 ehird, well, since I don't have a computer that supports fan control I don't know exactly 20:50:26 but 20:50:39 iirc lm_sensors bundles something called fancontrol 20:50:42 that is used for *some* fans 20:50:50 possibly acpi is used for other fans 20:50:52 or such 20:51:08 I'm not really the right person to ask about that sort of stuff 20:51:12 oh no 20:51:14 'Read-only file system' 20:51:17 I hate it when that happens 20:52:11 ehird, err how the heck did you manage that? 20:52:38 dunno; it happens all the time for me with linux 20:52:48 i think linux just hates me 20:52:50 like hate hate hate hate hate 20:52:50 ehird, what did you do? 20:52:57 did / remount readonly? 20:52:59 or what 20:53:00 dunno 20:53:06 maybe I should flaming os x, it might like me more then 20:54:30 * ehird votes to name new nasa node "Mister Splashy Pants" 20:54:38 hm 20:54:48 so 20:55:02 anyone want to share their mind with mine? 20:55:15 i mean like, so that we'd both control both bodies 20:55:18 yes 20:55:25 ehird, google image search yielded this: http://o0l0o.org/images/Bildschirmfoto_fsl_new.png not sure if that is enabled or disabled 20:55:43 i'm not sure i'd want to do that indefinitely though. 20:56:12 ehird, also this http://puntium.smugmug.com/photos/183993189_f7waP-S.jpg 20:56:15 -!- shapr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:56:48 enabled or disabled? 20:56:59 that looks nice, though 20:57:02 ehird, the latter I think is both side by side 20:57:03 logout login -> 20:58:35 ehird, back yet? 20:58:55 no subpixel rendering 20:58:57 + slight hinting 20:59:01 seems to do the trick to a degree 20:59:06 * Sgeo wants the IRTC back 20:59:09 I'd prefer subpixel ofc, but oh well 20:59:13 ehird, well, you could build your own 20:59:15 brb 20:59:18 quoting gentoo ebuild 20:59:27 if ! use bindist; then 20:59:27 # Bytecodes and subpixel hinting supports are patented 20:59:27 # in United States; for safety, disable them while building 20:59:27 # binaries, so that no risky code is distributed. 20:59:27 # See http://freetype.org/patents.html 20:59:32 enable_option FT_CONFIG_OPTION_SUBPIXEL_RENDERING 20:59:32 enable_option TT_CONFIG_OPTION_BYTECODE_INTERPRETER 20:59:32 disable_option TT_CONFIG_OPTION_UNPATENTED_HINTING 20:59:37 fi 21:00:09 GOD 21:00:10 BLESS 21:00:11 AMERICA 21:00:33 GregorR, well both me and ehird are in Europe, so we should be able to use it without issues 21:01:56 ehird, oh and openoffice includes it's own copy of freetype iirc, so there it is harder to get good looking font 21:05:23 ehird, there? 21:06:09 ehird, now the word spacing that firefox uses isn't the best, but other than that this looks good on my monitor. Settings are tuned to look good on this TFT, which may not look very good on your. But at least I hope it is useful http://omploader.org/vMWE0OQ 21:06:24 ehird, that was a screenshot of http://www.freetype.org/patents.html 21:10:13 ehird, also these two images: http://avi.alkalay.net/articlefiles/freetype4-nbci.png http://avi.alkalay.net/articlefiles/freetype4-bci.png 21:10:24 hm 21:10:37 one seems without hinting at all in fact. well not sure 21:11:02 ehird, of course it also depends on font. I recommend you convert your OS X fonts and copy them over 21:11:03 :) 21:11:16 bbiab 21:17:53 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:23:54 back 21:24:13 ehird, this seems relevant: http://www.beranger.org/index.php?page=3k&fullarticle=2150 21:24:23 as well as the other links I pasted before you returned 21:24:33 but your bouncer handles that iirc? 21:24:43 i WAS Online 21:24:45 just ask 21:24:46 afk 21:24:48 capslock 21:24:51 right 21:24:58 also: wb 21:25:07 hiiii ehird we missed you 21:25:13 :P 21:25:14 [20:59] ehird, well, you could build your own 21:25:23 * oklopol goes back to minesweeped 21:25:25 *r 21:25:28 I will literally build my own 21:25:30 when my OS is done 21:25:31 :P 21:25:37 ehird, it is simply a stupid "apple has patents in US" issue 21:25:38 :/ 21:25:52 yeah 21:25:54 patents often cause problems for great linux stuff 21:25:56 i hate software patents 21:26:15 like that recent "apply kernel security patches without reboot" : scrapped due to MS patents covering it 21:26:16 :/ 21:26:20 i can understand why a company would take them out in the current corporateosphere, but they shouldn't even exist 21:26:43 http://omploader.org/vMWE0OQ <-- the text here looks very thin 21:26:48 almost as if some bit sare missing 21:27:14 ehird, hm, well I found that readable on my screen, but it is pretty low DPI 21:27:23 AnMaster: I have like 120dpi or something ridiculous here 21:27:25 also, that bci.png... 21:27:29 the text isn't even antialiased... 21:27:37 ehird, iirc I have around 100 DPI 21:27:51 ehird, and yeah, no clue about that, the original page didn't exist 21:27:51 more than most people 21:27:53 when I tried 21:28:05 ehird, actually 98 DPI I think 21:28:27 anyway I *do* use the byte code interpreter 21:28:40 because without it, yeah awful 21:29:36 http://macprolinux.blogspot.com/2008/04/fan-control-python-script-for-8-core.html hmm 21:29:43 lalala 21:29:48 ehird, also there is a lack of free fonts yes, at least you can get some "not as bad as bitmapped helvetica" by getting ms corefonts (yes this means MS fonts, but trust me, bitmapped helvetica or courier is worse) 21:30:03 I'll probably just nick Helvetica from os x or something 21:30:16 since non-os x helveticas are worse, as a rule 21:30:19 -!- jix_ has quit ("..."). 21:30:25 ehird, you need to convert .dfont -> .ttf 21:30:30 there was some app for it 21:30:33 forgot name 21:30:45 I know, I used it to give some fonts to you 21:30:46 :P 21:30:47 ehird: s/helveticas/things in general/ 21:31:06 psygnisfive: I agree, but keep the flamebait down, I'm installing linux to see how it's progressed 21:31:12 ehird, normally I tend to use bitstream vera sans mono since I think that variable width sucks for programming 21:31:20 I use Monaco for programming 21:31:22 ive heard good things about the new ubuntus 21:31:23 and for writing documents: LaTeX 21:31:25 oooh monaco <3 21:31:36 ehird, Compter Modern FTW! 21:31:40 Computer* 21:31:45 computer modern is rather unmonospaced. 21:31:50 psygnisfive: I'm using kubuntu with the new kde 4.2 21:31:54 ehird, yes I said for writing documents 21:32:01 it's pretty, at least 21:32:05 cory doctorow's raved about ubuntu. 21:32:16 he would, he's a free culture weenie 21:32:24 ive got no idea what makes kubuntu k-ified 21:32:28 no no not even just that its free 21:32:29 kde. 21:32:35 he says it works nicely too 21:32:38 kubuntu = ubuntu - gnome + kde 21:32:46 on, does ubuntu normally use gnome? 21:32:47 hm. 21:32:50 yes 21:33:00 wheres elubuntu? 21:33:01 ehird, and there is a outline version, type1 iirc: Latin Modern 21:33:04 or blubuntu 21:33:20 ehird, hm btw is kubuntu KDE 4? 21:33:22 psygnisfive: what 21:33:30 er.. enubuntu, i meant 21:33:35 AnMaster: yes, kde 4.1, but I added the -proposed repository to upgrade to kde 4.2 21:33:41 4.2 is much nicer than 4.1 21:33:47 ehird, ah, I'm still on KDE 3.5.x 21:33:50 enubuntu = ubuntu - gnome + enlightenment 21:33:51 and blows 4.0 out of the water, although I only have ais523's anecdotes about 4.0 to go on 21:33:58 AnMaster: I'd say 4.2 is a definite improvemen 21:33:58 blubuntu = ubuntu - gnome + blackbox 21:33:59 t 21:34:05 they've nicked quite a lot from os x :P 21:34:19 psygnisfive: they don't exist because blackbox and enlightenment are both crap 21:34:24 :P 21:34:24 ehird, well gentoo devs say they will support KDE 3.x "for quite a while at least, considering how bad KDE 4 is still" 21:34:26 i like them 21:34:39 AnMaster: kde 4.2 just came out like last month. 21:34:41 ehird, quote from memory, comment about KDE 4.2-alpha 21:34:41 i like their extreme minimalism 21:34:42 late last month 21:34:52 psygnisfive: LOL, no, if you want extreme minimalism try dwm 21:34:53 or something like that 21:34:56 pre? beta? 21:34:57 or ratpoison 21:34:59 dwm? 21:35:01 AnMaster: no, final 21:35:04 psygnisfive: google it, foo 21:35:09 doing so nigra 21:35:10 ehird, well I mean that quote 21:35:15 ehird, well gentoo devs say they will support KDE 3.x "for quite a while at least, considering how bad KDE 4 is still" 21:35:28 ah 21:35:30 oh i read about this a bit back 21:35:31 it was about 4.2-(pre|beta|alpha|whatever) 21:35:34 well, I dunno 21:35:38 ehird, by a gentoo dev 21:35:43 gentoo devs tend to be a bit ridiculous in my experience 21:35:48 (i.e.: biased and irritating) 21:35:51 i didnt like dwm 21:35:58 ion ftw 21:36:16 ion is lol, the author is a douchebag 21:36:27 "I'm switching to windows and releasing ion as closed source in future!" "Err, disregard that" 21:36:28 ehird, well I really haven't had much to do with them, yeah I know there has been some internal fights stuff, but how do you know there haven't been any internal fights at apple? 21:36:40 no no no ehird 21:36:40 and why do you care about that, as long as the product works 21:36:40 it 21:36:42 AnMaster: I don't because I don't have contact with more than a few apple devs :P 21:36:43 s 21:36:49 "err disregard that i suck cocks lol" 21:36:53 also, you used a gentoo dev as an authoritative opinion 21:36:54 :P 21:36:59 psygnisfive: no, the author of ion would never admit to sucking cocks. 21:37:02 he's too self-centered. :P 21:37:17 can there even be such thing as an authoritative opinion? :) 21:37:23 so yeah i dislike dwm 21:37:26 evenant: duh, the government! 21:37:32 ehird, yes I just told you what one of the kde maintainers said, he also said that gentoo would probably aim for KDE 4.3 heh 21:37:46 kde package maintainers* 21:37:46 that is 21:37:53 why do you dislike bbwm and enlightenment, ehird? 21:37:56 (if it was unclear) 21:38:07 enlightenment is just bloated and boring, + pointless eye candy 21:38:14 psygnisfive, I have considered trying awesome wm if KDE 4.x doesn't improve 21:38:18 really? how do you figure? 21:38:21 or maybe xfce 21:38:22 i've used it. 21:38:29 blackbox is 99% "omg so 1337" and 1% actual usability. 21:38:38 right but what do you find bloated and pointless eye candy? 21:38:38 "IF THE TEXT IS SMALLER IT'S MORE MINIMALIST" 21:38:43 psygnisfive: have you _used_ e17? 21:38:45 ehird, xfce? (did I miss you passing over that?) 21:38:46 hells yeah 21:38:51 AnMaster: xfce is basically gnome done right 21:38:51 isn't that the point of linux? :P 21:38:53 no, i havent used e in a while 21:38:54 yeah, tuomov is a dick 21:38:57 but ion is awesome 21:38:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:39:00 ehird, oh, you mean with features? 21:39:06 ? 21:39:43 AnMaster: ? 21:39:53 ehird, for example I was trying to print from a Gnome program recently, except there seemed to be no where to set "A4" instead of "letter" 21:40:09 mm. you're right. im now reminded of the excessive silliness that people design for E themes 21:40:23 one good thing: You could be sure it wasn't there, it wasn't like you could have missed it, too few options around for that... 21:40:29 AnMaster: what context is this? 21:40:40 whenever i used enlightenment i used the very simple themes 21:40:43 in kde if you couldn't find it you wouldn't know if it was hidden somewhere between all the other options 21:40:51 ehird, gnome application printing dialog 21:40:57 it is shared between gnome apps 21:41:04 what are you replying to? 21:41:09 something I said? what? 21:41:11 AnMaster: xfce is basically gnome done right 21:41:12 ehird, oh, you mean with features? 21:41:15 ? 21:41:17 that makes no sense to me 21:41:18 ehird, for example I was trying to print from a Gnome program recently, except there seemed to be no where to set "A4" instead of "letter" 21:41:25 [21:41] AnMaster: xfce is basically gnome done right 21:41:26 [21:41] ehird, oh, you mean with features? 21:41:28 could you rephrase your line there? 21:41:40 i think AnMaster was being perfectly clear 21:41:46 ehird, basically I'm saying my main problem with gnome is that they seem to remove options all the time 21:41:50 ah 21:41:55 they are trying to make a fool proof GUI 21:41:59 I'm all for removing features, but gnome is just run by idiots 21:42:03 prediction: 21:42:08 if you ever want to use gnome, use xfce instead 21:42:10 maybe you needed to not know know what you're talking about to get it. 21:42:12 Gnome in 2020 will have two buttons 21:42:15 it's exactly the same except it works. 21:42:17 :D 21:42:21 that is all 21:42:26 both will do the same 21:42:30 AnMaster: "Switch to xfce" "Turn off computer" 21:42:38 they do the same, just one switches to xfce first 21:42:42 ah 21:42:48 and the other would switch to xfce after turning off your computer, but it can't do anything while it's off 21:42:53 so elegant 21:43:06 -!- BeholMyGlory has joined. 21:43:30 second prediction: In 2020 KDE will require 16 GB RAM. Firefox will require n + 25 GB RAM (where n is how much ram you have installed) 21:43:43 ehird@fhtagn:~$ sudo modprobe applesmc 21:43:44 ehird@fhtagn:~$ 21:43:48 This is a start. 21:43:56 ehird, what does applesmc do? 21:44:05 apple system management controller 21:44:09 I don't know what the hell comes next 21:44:14 I see. is that what handles the fan stuff? 21:44:17 I think so 21:44:39 * ehird growls at linux. It's interpreting mousewheel-left as right and vise versa. (This is annoying because the mighty mouse is one 3d ball, so when I scroll down I scroll right ever so slightly) 21:44:48 err 21:44:51 oh right I see 21:44:57 ehird, that is probably in xorg.conf 21:44:59 if that helps 21:45:11 Section "InputDevice" 21:45:12 Identifier "MightyMouse" 21:45:14 Driver "evdev" 21:45:15 Option "CorePointer" 21:45:17 Option "Name" "Elliott Hird’s Mouse" 21:45:18 Option "HWHEELRelativeAxisButtons" "7 6" 21:45:20 Option "Buttons" "8" 21:45:20 yep that is where 21:45:21 EndSection 21:45:21 hm 21:45:23 Guess I just have to swap them 21:45:24 to 6 7 21:45:34 ehird, worth a try, but I'm not sure 21:45:59 that may swap up/down with left/right 21:46:03 *possibly* 21:46:07 not sure 21:46:36 ehird, if you have kernel sources: drivers/hwmon/applesmc.c 21:46:41 I don't 21:46:42 * ehird 's forehead aches 21:46:59 ehird, well I'm feeling helpful today 21:46:59 so 21:47:10 from a quick look at that file it handles fan and motion sensor 21:47:12 (I bashed it hard yesterday by running into some metal head-on. Don't ask how. There's a bump there now.) 21:47:12 heh 21:47:19 also, that's good :P 21:47:21 also light sensor? 21:47:23 now how do I make it work I wonder... 21:47:29 AnMaster: for controlling monitor brightness, I assume 21:47:48 ehird, somewhere in /proc I would suspect, or /sys 21:47:55 let me read a bit further in the file 21:48:08 -!- Judofyr has joined. 21:48:29 -!- BeholMyGlory has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 21:48:39 hrrm 21:48:57 device? 21:49:05 ? 21:49:22 ehird, it seems to have stuff related to /dev 21:49:24 not sure yet 21:49:30 only about halfway through the file 21:49:35 how do you change keyboard layout in kde 21:49:37 I can't type a bar 21:49:56 ehird, in KDE 3 it is in the kcontrol thing 21:50:24 oh wait sysfs 21:50:31 (talking about fan) 21:50:56 You'd think this would work out of the box 21:51:12 ehird, no I don't, I'm a realist 21:51:25 it works in OS X, and I'm pretty sure it works in windows 21:51:26 apple works out of box because they can ensure it does in advance 21:51:26 out of the box 21:51:42 but yes, apple gain a lot by relying on hardware 21:51:58 ehird, ok, applesmc is controlled through sysfs 21:52:04 sysfs = /sys, right? 21:52:21 ehird, yes. However I'm not sure exactly which file because it depends on what PCI ID it shows up as I think 21:52:27 if I understood the source correctly 21:52:32 acpi pci platform scsi spi usb 21:52:34 ieee1394 pci_express pnp serio ssb 21:52:35 so, pci then 21:52:37 wel 21:52:53 ehird, I might be wrong, I think pci and pci_express is handled similiary at this level 21:52:56 so worth searching 21:53:13 nothing related that I can see 21:53:33 ehird, find /sys -name '*applesmc*' 21:53:34 maybe 21:53:44 ehird, I'm not very used to kernel macors 21:53:48 macros* 21:53:50 /sys/devices/platform/applesmc.768 21:53:52 /sys/bus/platform/devices/applesmc.768 21:53:53 /sys/bus/platform/drivers/applesmc 21:53:55 /sys/bus/platform/drivers/applesmc/applesmc.768 21:53:55 ah 21:53:56 /sys/module/applesmc 21:53:58 /sys/module/applesmc/drivers/platform:applesmc 21:53:59 /sys/module/input_polldev/holders/applesmc 21:54:00 then I guessed wrong 21:54:01 /sys/module/led_class/holders/applesmc 21:54:02 it wasn't pci 21:54:02 gotta be one of them 21:54:03 well 21:54:04 now to find out which 21:54:17 ehird, indeed. Did you try google btw? 21:54:28 yes 21:54:30 a lot 21:54:38 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MacBookPro/SantaRosaFanControl 21:54:41 what about that one? 21:54:55 oh wait 21:54:58 macbook 21:55:02 it seems to have issues with applesmc too 21:55:04 ah 21:55:12 "One of these days I'll have time to dig into applesmc to understand how it works... " 21:55:14 NOT promising 21:55:30 ehird, anyway I never had issues like this when installing linux 21:55:38 Unsurprising 21:55:50 ehird, really? I never got a computer with linux pre-installed 21:56:01 s/got// 21:56:07 bought? 21:56:10 yes 21:56:14 or received, or owned 21:56:17 or whatever 21:56:18 -!- Corun has joined. 21:56:18 indeed 21:56:20 anyway 21:56:42 ehird, the largest problem I ever had was with some old old "winmodem" back when I had dialup 21:56:58 luckily I did find a driver in the end. But this was back on 2.4 kernels 21:57:06 I hate winmodems so. much. 21:57:08 since then it worked mostly painlessly 21:57:10 ehird, me too 21:57:11 anyway 21:57:12 I had a USB winmodem when I was with Tiscali 21:57:15 bane of my existance 21:57:26 I'm just gonig to leave the fan 21:57:28 it's not harming anyone 21:57:46 nvidia-drivers sometimes had issues with last kernel, however often easy to fix by selecting another version 21:57:53 -!- kar8nga has quit (Connection timed out). 21:57:57 gentoo tends to make many versions available of nvidia-drivers 21:58:07 [I] x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers 21:58:08 Available versions: 71.86.06!s 71.86.07!s ~71.86.08!s 96.43.07!s 96.43.09!s ~96.43.10!s 100.14.19!s 173.14.09!s ~173.14.12!s 173.14.15!s ~173.14.16!s ~177.80!s 177.82!s ~180.22!s ~180.27!s ~180.29!s {acpi custom-cflags gtk kernel_FreeBSD kernel_linux multilib userland_BSD} 21:58:08 Installed versions: 177.82!s(14:49:55 01/31/09)(acpi gtk kernel_linux multilib -custom-cflags) 21:58:13 My graphics driver in here is the propietary fglrx one, I think 21:58:20 ehird, ATI: ouch 21:58:26 ok ATI is another bad one 21:58:31 I had a ATI card once 21:58:37 changed to nvidia 21:58:40 AnMaster: when I bought this mac you could only get nvidia with a mac pro, and it was more expensive 21:58:47 this graphics card has served me fine, anyway 21:58:48 ehird, I feel sorry for you to have ATI 21:58:52 even on windows ATI sucks 21:58:55 I'm happy :P 21:59:06 ehird, yes right, but ATI tends to have issues on linux 21:59:10 they make shitty drivers 21:59:13 I haven't really has any issues 21:59:15 *had 21:59:17 even their own closed source ones 21:59:24 guess I'm lucky 21:59:32 sure so does nvidia, but they are at least less shitty 22:00:46 ehird, this is sad, you get more useful hits when goolging for applesmc -ubuntu than for applesmc 22:00:53 haha 22:01:15 AnMaster: here's how my text rendering/etc currently looks: 22:01:16 http://filebin.ca/trdxnd/snapshot1.png 22:01:20 ehird, http://www.mactel-linux.org/wiki/AppleSMC 22:01:22 is that useful? 22:01:27 I've seen that page 22:01:30 it isn't really helpful 22:01:35 it's internals documentation 22:01:38 grr download dialog 22:01:45 yeah, filebin does that 22:01:53 ompload++ 22:02:11 I'm wary to click on omploader links because it was originally designed as a shock site hoster 22:02:15 ehird, atm my gimp seems broken, it says this when trying to open urls: 22:02:16 Procedure 'gimp-file-load' has been called with value '(null)' for argument 'filename' (#2, type gchararray). This value is out of range. 22:02:36 * AnMaster wgets 22:02:48 @ 22:02:49 Q: What in the butt is Omploader? 22:02:51 A: Omploader was originally crea 22:02:52 err 22:02:55 " 22:02:56 Q: What in the butt is Omploader? 22:02:58 A: Omploader was originally created to become the ultimate shock site hosting service b 22:02:59 " 22:03:02 heh 22:03:07 sure it says that? 22:03:11 http://omploader.org/faq.xhtml 22:03:12 very sure 22:03:12 I looked in FAQ recently iirc 22:03:21 ah yes 22:03:35 ehird, anyway your screenshot definitely seems like the auto-hinter crap 22:03:41 probably 22:03:44 it looks decent though 22:04:09 ehird, I think mine looks a bit better. Could be due to careful tuning for this monitor 22:04:51 ehird, I mean apple can easily pre-tune since they know exactly what monitor will be used in most of the cases. 22:04:57 Yep. 22:05:23 oh and they have worked with this for ages. I mean apple used to be used in DTP a lot 22:05:33 still is 22:05:36 nowdays windows is probably used sometimes, but even so apple is still quite common there 22:05:37 yeah 22:05:50 ehird, I mean I often wanted something like coloursync 22:06:05 sure there is a few things like it, tinycms and such 22:06:07 my OS will have perfect antialiasing. :-P 22:06:14 hah 22:06:21 also, perfect everything else. 22:06:23 perfect pony providing. 22:06:31 ehird, be prepared to pay apple then for the patent 22:06:34 :/ 22:06:44 I'll just invent my own and be a hermit until I finish it 22:06:57 ehird, with bytecode interpreter I can see no difference to rendering on a mac if I use the same font 22:07:10 really? like your screenshot? 22:07:14 that's way different to how a mac would do it 22:07:26 mac text pretty much looks like printed text 22:07:27 ehird, well that wasn't using the same font that would be found on a mac 22:07:29 a bit less thick 22:07:36 AnMaster: I have dejavu on my mac 22:08:08 ehird, also I don't like how a mac does it so I changed a bit from that. + firefox isn't the best to handle spacing 22:08:23 I'm using arora browser 22:08:24 webkit + qt 22:08:33 but I mean for hinting and such 22:09:06 ehird, idea for future X extension: XTeX 22:09:13 renders on screen with tex in realtime 22:09:14 :) 22:09:19 ha 22:09:22 to give you the best possible experience 22:09:36 AnMaster: no, it sends it off to an automated professional printer 22:09:42 oooh nice 22:09:47 and then automates scanning the result 22:09:50 with a high-quality scanner 22:09:57 ehird, with the microtype package? 22:10:01 for the rendering 22:10:03 and maps its draft rendering to the scanned copy to smooth out edges and map up the text 22:10:07 ta-daaaaaaaaaaa 22:10:56 ehird, http://www.ctan.org/get/macros/latex/contrib/microtype/microtype.pdf 22:11:01 very nice 22:11:13 The application Konqueror (konqueror) crashed and caused the signal 11 (SIGSEGV). 22:11:15 Please help us improve the software you use by filing a report at http://bugs.kde.org. Useful details include how to reproduce the error, documents that were loaded, etc. 22:11:16 greaaat 22:11:24 ehird, included by default in recent texlive 22:11:34 ehird, never happens to me 22:11:39 want to summarize it because I can't open that? 22:11:52 it has been something like 1.2 years since I last saw a KDE crash dialog for a KDE app 22:11:59 or such 22:12:05 KDE 3.5 is stable :) 22:12:20 ehird, anyway try firefox maybe? 22:12:24 heh, kde 3.5 crashed all the time for me 22:12:27 AnMaster: I'll try arora 22:12:38 ehird, strange what is it with you and Linux... 22:12:44 ah I know 22:12:48 the packages hate you 22:12:54 you are not their builder 22:12:58 you need to compile your own 22:13:03 it is like blood groups 22:13:11 graaaah, I restarted my mouse and now it won't recognize it 22:13:16 HULK SMASH 22:13:22 you are incompatible with whowever built the package 22:13:26 ehird, ouch that is a bad one 22:13:29 never had that issue 22:13:39 I can disconnect and reconnect the mouse and it works perfectly 22:13:43 mind you it is USB 22:13:46 so may differ 22:13:53 don't have any bluetooth in this computer 22:13:55 brb 22:14:03 ofc it differs :P 22:14:22 yay, reconnected 22:15:21 so, who wants to hear me rant about how computing sucks and my OS would fix everything? 22:15:34 -!- kar8nga has joined. 22:16:08 back 22:16:26 you all do? awesome! 22:16:39 ehird, unless it is written is 99.9999 % Haskell 0.0001 % ASM and 0 % C: No thanks 22:16:54 AnMaster: s/Haskell/Lisp/ and you got it 22:16:55 if it is written is 99.9999 % Haskell 0.0001 % ASM and 0 % C: Thanks, but no 22:17:06 :-D 22:17:11 ehird, is there a fast forward option? 22:17:18 on the rant 22:17:29 at selected digressions. 22:18:59 ehird, anyway I have two things to say: 1) Software patents blocked linux being great more than once. Fonts, hot patching kernel, colour management... and lots more 2) Apple know exactly what hardware their OS will run on. And they can afford patents. (In fact they own several). 22:19:14 1) agreed there, it's a shame 22:19:25 ehird, At least I don't need to reboot just because I updated itunes :D 22:19:29 2) i'm not happy with owning patents, but indeed knowing the hardware is very helpful 22:19:32 AnMaster: hey, nor I 22:19:43 you only need to boot up for core system updates, and firmware updatesss 22:19:47 ehird, I'm pretty sure I saw a mac reboot after an upgrade to it recently.. 22:19:48 anyway 22:19:53 sure, maybe QuickTime 22:19:59 quicktime is heavily integrated into os x 22:20:06 and is generally bundled with an itunes upgrade 22:20:14 i.e. quicktime upgrade = itunes upgrade, but sometimes itunes upgrade without quicktime upgrade 22:20:16 ehird, I upgraded from glibc 2.6 to 2.8 a few days ago. Recompiled binutils, libtool, gcc, gdb and valgrind after 22:20:19 haven't rebooted yet 22:20:22 everything works fine 22:20:25 against the new glibc 22:20:27 you can do that with os x too. 22:20:29 core system component 22:20:41 well, you'd have to close all apps and reopen them entirely 22:20:49 because just about all of them rely on the kind of stuff making you reboot 22:20:52 and yes it is possible quicktime was upgraded 22:20:54 at that point, might as well just reboot.. 22:21:07 ehird, um I haven't closed anything after that upgrade 22:21:15 hey I even upgraded X without restarting it 22:21:21 or QT without exiting KDE 22:21:24 usually it works 22:21:31 it's a different kind of thing, but w/e 22:21:32 only once it broke, for QT 22:22:11 got "psychedelic colour" KDE. I think it managed to confuse Alpha channel or such 22:22:17 restarting KDE helped that time 22:22:18 ha 22:22:48 rant mode turning on in 60 seconds... ^C to abort... 22:22:50 beeeep 22:22:50 like on all menus, just after the shortcut info... 22:22:52 ^C 22:23:03 ehird: ^C 22:23:05 are you sure? ^C for yes, ^Z for no 22:23:08 ehird: ^C 22:23:12 ** 40 seconds remaining * 22:23:16 are you really sure? 22:23:19 yes 22:23:25 ehird, yes really 22:23:27 please use the correct key combinations 22:23:31 ehird, ^C 22:23:40 ^Z for yes, ^C for no. ok, thanks for accepting my rants 22:23:42 ah 22:23:44 ** 25 seconds remaining ** 22:23:44 ehird, no 22:23:46 ^C 22:23:47 ^C 22:23:50 ^Z 22:23:51 are you sure? 22:23:56 are you really sure? 22:24:04 are you -- user entered too many keys at once. Returning to main loop. 22:24:08 ** 10 seconds remaining * 22:24:10 * 22:24:17 ehird, then I'm going to /ignore 22:24:22 *shrug* 22:24:25 ** BOOT UP COMPLETED * 22:24:27 * 22:24:56 AWAITING FOR USER TO FORGET ABOUT IGNORING SYSTEM BEFORE CONTINUING. 22:25:19 SHIFTY EYES. 22:25:45 AnMaster: PROMPTING FOR CONFIRMATION OF FORGETTING [YN] 22:27:55 http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/02/19/quicken-online-cant-believe-mint-is-doing-so-well-sends-threatening-letter/ 22:27:59 facepalm 22:29:12 AnMaster: am I on ignore? 22:30:18 psygnisfive, Hm ever considered that there is more than one type of ignore? 22:30:37 [22:24] ehird, then I'm going to /ignore 22:30:40 that was qute specific 22:31:14 ehird, well isn't that the command you use in your brain for mental ignore? If not get new cyborg implements(sp?) 22:31:23 I'll wait for the singularity :P 22:31:38 ehird, E_UNKNOWN_REF 22:32:00 We've talked about it quite a bit in here. 22:32:01 I do know what singularity is in math and in black holes, I don't know how it is related to this 22:32:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity 22:32:29 Also see http://yudkowsky.net/obsolete/singularity.html (despite obsolete marker, still worthwhile) 22:33:47 anmaster, what? 22:33:54 psygnisfive, forget it 22:34:09 psygnisfive, you were an innocent bystander 22:35:20 :( 22:35:29 COLLATERAL DAMAGE? 22:35:46 psygnisfive, for a joke yes 22:36:11 what are the other kinds of ignore? 22:36:37 ehird, btw what do you think of cleartype style antialias 22:36:47 like using just some colours 22:36:51 personally I hate it 22:37:04 on this screen it looks horrible 22:37:11 AnMaster: cleartype is better than a lot of linux font rendering, but apart from that, it' scrapp 22:37:12 cleartype is ugly 22:37:16 agh keyboard laggy 22:37:18 indeed 22:37:23 ehird, keyboard lags? 22:37:24 huh 22:37:27 never happened to me 22:37:39 well I guess when I managed to cause swap trashing... it happened partly 22:37:50 but only then 22:38:14 ehird, so how the heck did you manage to get your keyboard to lag 22:38:23 also what made you install ubuntu 22:38:25 just wondering 22:38:58 AnMaster: wireless keyboard thats been trhashed over the years 22:39:17 AnMaster: and, ais upgrading 22:39:44 ehird, hm? 22:39:51 ais isn't connected 22:39:51 ... 22:39:55 earlier today 22:39:58 ah yes 22:40:06 ah you wanted to try last version? 22:40:33 yes 22:41:14 grah 22:41:22 it won't reconnect 22:41:24 wtf not... 22:42:35 what 22:42:39 grah? 22:42:53 grah=gah + irritation 22:43:08 ehird, also I never used bluetooth under linux (or any other OS) so afraid I can't help here 22:43:22 I use a PS/2 keyboard in fact heh 22:43:33 USB mouse from Microsoft 22:43:36 ps/2? 22:43:38 wow. 22:43:53 ehird, why replace it? if the keyboard works and is nice to type on 22:43:58 I mean it isn't broken yet 22:44:11 ehird, I never replace stuff I don't need to replace 22:44:15 Can't get device information: Host is down 22:44:17 wtf is hidd on 22:44:24 hidd? 22:44:36 bluetooth thing 22:44:42 ehird@fhtagn:~$ sudo hidd --connect 00:0A:95:4A:C6:08 22:44:44 Can't get device information: Host is down 22:45:01 like I used same mobile phone for like 5 years. Until recently my phone had black and white screen and like 3 lines of text 22:45:14 ehird, um no idea 22:45:16 dmesg? 22:45:28 /var/log/* ? 22:45:32 [ 5250.154819] applesmc: 3 fans found. 22:45:35 ^ wow. 3 fans. 22:45:36 nice 22:45:48 ehird, I have that many in my computer: CPU, GPU, PSU 22:45:52 3 fans 22:46:03 the gpu one is really loud 22:46:09 the cpu is fairly loud too 22:46:24 * ehird feels back fan HOLY FUCK THAT'S HOT 22:46:29 * ehird warms hands 22:46:30 ehird, idea 22:46:39 do you have cpufreq-info 22:46:43 possibly root only 22:46:48 wut's that fof 22:46:49 for 22:46:50 otherwise I'll find out what package it is 22:47:02 ehird, finding out if you use dynamic cpu speed 22:47:06 or run at max all the time 22:47:33 ehird@fhtagn:~$ cpufreq-info 22:47:34 The program 'cpufreq-info' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing: 22:47:36 sudo apt-get install cpufrequtils 22:47:37 bash: cpufreq-info: command not found 22:47:39 ehird@fhtagn:~$ sudo apt-get install cpufrequtils 22:47:39 cpufrequtils 22:47:40 ah 22:47:40 i like that part of ubuntu 22:47:41 yes 22:47:56 ehird, well I guess you have like thousands of symlinks in /usr/bin from it... 22:48:01 err, no 22:48:03 it's a bash hack 22:48:06 oh I see 22:48:08 interesting 22:48:13 http://rafb.net/p/YIUplv84.html 22:48:14 btw 22:48:22 ehird, to change you use cpufreq-set 22:48:31 analyzing CPU 0: 22:48:33 driver: acpi-cpufreq 22:48:35 CPUs which need to switch frequency at the same time: 0 22:48:36 ehird, you will probably want to put it in some startup script 22:48:36 hardware limits: 1000 MHz - 2.17 GHz 22:48:38 available frequency steps: 2.17 GHz, 2.00 GHz, 1.83 GHz, 1.67 GHz, 1.50 GHz, 1.33 GHz, 1000 MHz 22:48:39 available cpufreq governors: userspace, ondemand, conservative, powersave, performance 22:48:41 current policy: frequency should be within 1000 MHz and 2.17 GHz. 22:48:42 The governor "ondemand" may decide which speed to use 22:48:44 within this range. 22:48:44 ah 22:48:44 hm 22:48:45 current CPU frequency is 1000 MHz. 22:48:47 analyzing CPU 1: 22:48:48 well 22:48:48 driver: acpi-cpufreq 22:48:50 CPUs which need to switch frequency at the same time: 1 22:48:51 then why so hot 22:48:51 hardware limits: 1000 MHz - 2.17 GHz 22:48:54 available frequency steps: 2.17 GHz, 2.00 GHz, 1.83 GHz, 1.67 GHz, 1.50 GHz, 1.33 GHz, 1000 MHz 22:48:54 available cpufreq governors: userspace, ondemand, conservative, powersave, performance 22:48:57 current policy: frequency should be within 1000 MHz and 2.17 GHz. 22:48:58 The governor "ondemand" may decide which speed to use 22:49:00 within this range. 22:49:03 current CPU frequency is 1000 MHz. 22:49:04 whee flood 22:49:04 ehird, that seems fine then 22:49:06 oops 22:49:08 :| 22:49:12 ehird, it is currently at lowest speed 22:49:18 ondemand makes it run faster when needed 22:49:24 ehird, not sure why it is hot then 22:49:31 and if it is normal 22:49:34 keyboard is now connected, mouse is now laggy -_- 22:49:41 goddamn, ubuntu. goddamn. 22:49:42 ehird, I feel for you 22:49:53 also I don't know why 22:50:10 ehird, anyway stuff like this tends to be not very well documented 22:50:23 and differ between vendors 22:50:27 okay, all reconnected 22:50:29 thank god 22:50:33 who produce drivers for whatever OS they suppor 22:50:38 like windows drivers 22:50:40 or mac ones 22:50:46 my os would fix this all :P 22:50:59 ehird, running mac OS on a non-mac tends to be worse than linux on a mac 22:51:09 osx86 has matured a lot 22:51:19 I imagine OS X on a pc is less painful than this 22:51:36 ehird, the hardware it works on is way more limited than the hardware linux works on 22:51:37 :P 22:51:43 indeed 22:51:50 point is, apple can fine tune for their hardware 22:52:00 this is only the 50th time you have said this 22:52:02 :D 22:52:04 PC vendors can fine tune and/or write drivers for windows 22:52:15 linux devs lack this possibility 22:52:16 do you want to say it a few more times? 22:52:25 thanks but no 22:52:37 unless you complain about linux again :P 22:53:01 I'm not complaining about linux, just my situation with linux 22:53:07 anyway fan and ACPI stuff can usually be made to work 22:53:13 it used to be way worse 22:53:31 hey I remember back on linux 2.6.8 or so, it used to kernel panic if I rebooted by USB printer 22:53:49 :D 22:53:58 oklopol: do you want to hear my OS rants? 22:54:02 back when men were real men... 22:54:06 they're insightful, I swear. 22:54:10 AnMaster: what year was that 22:54:34 ehird, not sure... but it was on opensuse 22:55:05 i first used linux in 2004 I think 22:55:12 ehird, oh and I remember compiling a custom 2.4 kernel and fighting to death with lilo 22:55:14 didn't work with my modem so I gave up 22:55:17 that was times 22:55:18 I think I got it working circa 2006 22:55:21 *nostalgic* 22:55:40 first time I used was back with red hat 5.x iirc 22:55:48 or maybe 6.0 22:56:07 ehird, I did this in Connitx VirtualPC on a 300 MHz ibook (first model) 22:56:11 DOES NOBODY WANT TO ENTERTAIN MY NOTIONS ;_; 22:56:23 didn't have enough disk space to install anything but a very basic system 22:56:32 ehird, eh? 22:56:35 what notions 22:56:40 os ranting :D 22:56:43 ah 22:56:55 ehird, oh yes System 7... 22:56:58 fun times 22:57:05 crashed more than windows 95 22:57:09 though less than ME 22:57:11 system 7 was quite nice 22:57:19 i've only used it like once or twice 22:57:20 ehird, oh yes except when macbug opened 22:57:21 :P 22:57:25 yeah, nice when it worked :P 22:58:00 ehird, and no silly eye candy like windows going down into the dock like they were drawn down by a vacuum cleaner 22:58:08 ugh, I hate that animation 22:58:15 thankfully there isn't much else like it in os x 22:58:21 if you didn't guess: I hate it too 22:58:40 ehird, it still wins the price for worst eye candy ever IMO 22:58:49 I'll agree with that 22:58:52 even compiz comes at second place after that 22:59:01 and I really really really hate compiz 22:59:16 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:59:21 I think these fans are making the computer hotter. 22:59:27 heck if I want to minimize a window I want to do it now, I don't want to wait for a bloody animation 22:59:42 this is not a trial version after all 22:59:48 why should I have to live with such stuff 23:00:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:00:03 ehird, really how would the fans make it hotter!? 23:00:09 that makes no sense 23:00:11 AnMaster: the heat of their operation :-D 23:00:14 hi oerjan 23:00:22 ehird, sure it isn't offset by the fans? 23:00:39 also um... haven't figured out how to turn them off yet? 23:00:41 it's very hot, if the fans are _cooling_ it I want to know why it's so hot 23:00:43 ehird, try fancontrol maybe 23:00:47 it's from lm_sensors 23:00:55 nothing can be hot unless it's got fans, that's obvious 23:00:56 yeah, it fails because I have no /etc/fancontrol 23:01:02 oh 23:01:03 err 23:01:06 oerjan: lol 23:01:25 ehird, iirc you use pwmconfig to generate it 23:01:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 23:01:36 ehird, man page agrees with me 23:01:50 Since most of you are going to use pwmconfig(8) script, the config file syntax will be discussed last. First I'm going to describe the var- 23:01:50 ious variables available for changing fancontrol's behaviour: 23:02:01 /usr/sbin/pwmconfig: There are no pwm-capable sensor modules installed 23:02:48 um 23:02:59 ehird, I guess your fan is controlled with ACPI then 23:03:02 or applesmc 23:03:08 applesmc. :P 23:03:53 ehird, fun thing is it detects some things to change fan speed and even where to read fan speed, but changing them actually doesn't do anything 23:03:55 :/ 23:03:59 for my computer 23:04:11 and looking at the mobo the fan isn't controllable 23:04:23 hey oerjan, want to hear my ranting? 23:04:34 ehird, it was constant speed under the preinstalled winxp too 23:04:47 ehird, idea: 23:04:50 sensors-detect 23:04:53 as root 23:04:59 may find some way to read temp 23:05:09 Use driver `i2c-i801' for device 0000:00:1f.3: Intel 82801G ICH7 23:05:12 ehird, it may even be able to handle smc thing 23:05:17 o.o 23:05:21 ehird, yes it prints lots of stuff 23:05:33 ehird, see if it finds anything in the end 23:05:42 Driver `coretemp' (should be inserted): 23:05:44 Detects correctly: 23:05:45 * Chip `Intel Core family thermal sensor' (confidence: 9) 23:05:47 maybe? 23:05:48 yay 23:05:57 ehird, that allows reading temp from cpu 23:05:58 however 23:06:11 ehird@fhtagn:~$ sudo modprobe coretemp 23:06:12 some intel core* had broken temp sensors 23:06:13 ehird@fhtagn:~$ 23:06:14 hokay 23:06:16 know CPU errata 23:06:18 now what 23:06:23 ehird, um didn't it print more 23:06:27 did sensors-detect finish? 23:06:27 nope 23:06:29 yep 23:06:36 ehird, did it tell you to edit some file? 23:06:43 like /etc/sensors.conf 23:06:48 and add specific lines? 23:06:50 or such 23:06:51 just /etc/modules to add coretemp 23:06:52 if not: 23:07:00 sudo sensors 23:07:08 hopefully that will print something like temp 23:07:09 for cpus 23:07:13 it has the applesmc stuff 23:07:17 ehird, :D 23:07:26 ehird, not fan control yet, but you can see temp now 23:07:27 temperature for both around 35C 23:07:29 I hope 23:07:35 ehird, ok then why so hot 23:07:36 ERROR: Can't get value of subfeature temp3_input: I/O error 23:07:37 * oerjan notes (again) that irssi doesn't mark lines containing my nick without a : after 23:07:39 prints the same for 5 and 9 23:07:40 35C sunds normal 23:07:42 odd 23:07:45 AnMaster: it is normal 23:07:47 ERROR: Can't get value of subfeature temp3_input: I/O error <-- weird yeah 23:07:49 well 23:07:53 temp4: +50.8°C 23:07:55 ehird, my CPU is 29 C atm though 23:07:55 that's quite high 23:07:58 I dunno what they are though 23:08:03 they don't seem to be the cpu 23:08:15 AnMaster: my CPU is more powerful :P 23:08:40 ehird, on PCs you can usually do like "go into bios, check temp, write down what each one is", go into linux, compare temps and find out which one maps to what 23:08:44 however that would be hard on macs 23:08:47 mm 23:08:52 okay, so I have temperature measures 23:08:54 no auto fan control thouh 23:08:57 ehird, YET 23:09:02 :-D 23:09:10 * AnMaster is searching gentoo packages for "apple" and "fan" atm 23:09:39 AnMaster: wouldn't that tend to find a lot of cursing? 23:09:59 oerjan, pun detected but not understood 23:10:16 "damn apple fans" and such 23:10:27 err 23:10:28 what? 23:10:32 * ehird installs sbcl 23:10:34 oh 23:10:40 it's not a linux system if you don't have SBCL! 23:10:45 oerjan, package database, as in searching portage 23:10:51 # eix -cS apple 23:10:51 [N] app-cdr/gcdemu (1.0.0): gCDEmu is a GNOME applet for controlling CDEmu daemon 23:10:51 [N] app-i18n/imhangul-status-applet (~0.3-r1): Status Applet for imhangul 23:10:51 [N] app-laptop/gkrellm-pmu (--): GKrellM2 plugin for battery display on Apple machines 23:10:55 and so on 23:11:03 yeah finds lot of "applet" 23:11:26 * (* 29834923847239472934783947239842 198438712364872634872347682637482163478) 23:11:27 5920403871750233040095493286841638728722288213740963433203084718890476 23:11:29 sbcl works :P 23:11:31 if it can do regexes, try apple\> or whatever 23:11:50 oerjan, what regex dialect would that be 23:12:16 well vim i think 23:12:20 mhm 23:12:31 actually I would need PCRE here 23:12:35 to do a negative lookahead 23:12:41 but this seems like POSIX regex 23:13:08 perl doesn't have an end-of-word marker? 23:13:16 oerjan, err this isn't perl 23:13:20 it is using POSIX 23:13:32 well same question 23:13:58 i thought POSIX was similar to vim anyhow, at least more than to perl 23:14:17 eix -cS apple | pcregrep -i 'apple(?!t)' | grep --color=yes -i apple 23:14:19 that works 23:14:25 ugly yes 23:15:16 ok \> is definitely grep too 23:16:03 so eix -cS apple | grep --color=yes -i 'apple\>' 23:17:12 well unless you insist on allowing letters other than t 23:17:42 ehird, hm... 23:17:53 ehird, what kernel version? 23:17:55 uname -a 23:18:04 Linux fhtagn 2.6.27-7-generic #1 SMP Tue Nov 4 19:33:06 UTC 2008 x86_64 GNU/Linux 23:18:08 hm ok 23:19:06 ehird, this applesmc driver is unusually badly documented 23:19:09 what about: 23:19:12 sudo modinfo applsmc 23:19:14 err 23:19:16 sudo modinfo applesmc 23:19:24 filename: /lib/modules/2.6.27-7-generic/kernel/drivers/hwmon/applesmc.ko 23:19:25 license: GPL v2 23:19:27 description: Apple SMC 23:19:28 author: Nicolas Boichat 23:19:30 srcversion: 25CB42F01F4B61FD05EC33F 23:19:31 depends: led-class,input-polldev 23:19:33 vermagic: 2.6.27-7-generic SMP mod_unload modversions 23:19:34 totally helpful 23:19:40 not very indeed 23:19:44 ehird, sometimes it has stuff like: 23:19:49 parm: scatter_elem_sz:scatter gather element size (default: max(SG_SCATTER_SZ, PAGE_SIZE)) (int) 23:19:49 parm: def_reserved_size:size of buffer reserved for each fd (int) 23:19:49 parm: allow_dio:allow direct I/O (default: 0 (disallow)) (int) 23:19:51 or such 23:19:57 module parameters 23:20:01 that control behaviour 23:20:09 like for the nfs module, what ports to use 23:21:02 ehird, anyway, did you poke around in sysfs 23:21:10 possible the same directory or the one just above 23:21:17 also symlinks are relevant 23:21:19 mm, I've poked around 23:21:20 not much unfortunatel 23:21:24 ah 23:21:26 oh well 23:21:55 ehird, anything in /proc/sys about fan? 23:21:59 or applesmc 23:22:15 ehird@fhtagn:/proc/sys$ find . -name apple 23:22:16 ehird@fhtagn:/proc/sys$ find . -name fan 23:22:18 ehird@fhtagn:/proc/sys$ 23:22:25 ah 23:22:34 ehird, anyway the stuff for fan should be in sysfs 23:22:38 -!- M0ny has joined. 23:23:00 ehird, just this file is using so many macros I'm not sure how it works 23:23:47 yeah 23:23:51 I doubt it's worth bothering 23:23:52 ehird, find /sys -name '*fan*_safe*' 23:23:53 try that 23:24:06 I believe it will be stuff like fan1_safe 23:24:13 and in the same directory there should be other control files 23:24:15 /sys/devices/platform/applesmc.768/fan3_safe 23:24:16 /sys/devices/platform/applesmc.768/fan2_safe 23:24:18 /sys/devices/platform/applesmc.768/fan1_safe 23:24:19 yay 23:24:30 AnMaster: i did find /sys applesmc yknow 23:24:34 didn't you read the output? :P 23:24:35 ehird, in that directory there will be other fan[1-3]_* 23:24:37 also yes, a lot of stuff 23:24:44 one of them allows write 23:24:48 http://rafb.net/p/O7ipKO59.html 23:24:59 ehird, fan##offset##_min 23:25:03 where you replace that 23:25:16 replace the ##offset## bit I mean 23:25:25 ehird@fhtagn:/sys/devices/platform/applesmc.768$ cat fan{1,2,3}_{min,max} 23:25:27 800 23:25:28 5000 23:25:30 1400 23:25:31 5000 23:25:33 800 23:25:34 3600 23:25:37 ehird, maybe lower the minimum will help 23:25:43 not sure if it is safe or not 23:25:45 I'm not sure I want to mess around with that 23:25:51 ehird, nor am I 23:25:51 as far as I can tell, these fans are on one setting 23:25:53 permanently 23:25:54 atm 23:25:59 ehird, atm yes 23:26:05 applesmc_store_fan_manual 23:26:06 err 23:26:14 fan##offset##_manual 23:26:15 maybe 23:26:18 all at 0 23:26:32 ok, fan 1 @ 859 23:26:34 err 23:26:35 fan 2 @ 1481 23:26:37 fan 3 @ 1223 23:26:42 so only fan3 is more than a tiny bit above default 23:26:44 ehird, let me check how that works 23:26:52 those are fanN_input 23:26:56 ah 23:26:58 what do they do? 23:27:03 list the current 23:27:04 speed 23:27:09 ah right 23:27:28 #define FANS_MANUAL "FS! " /* r-w ui16 */ 23:27:30 right 23:27:34 that was very useful 23:27:35 not 23:27:37 :D 23:27:52 ehird, very poorly documented this... 23:28:12 guys. is it just me or are you being really boring? 23:28:24 oklopol: shall I RANT ABOUT OSES?!?!?!?! 23:28:45 i'd love to see rant about oses 23:28:50 just not specific instances of oses 23:28:55 ofc 23:28:57 it's a rant in general 23:29:00 and also crazy ideas I have 23:29:04 colon bar 23:29:06 (I can't type a bar) 23:29:15 i have a lot of os ideas 23:29:23 mine are better you should listen to them. 23:29:33 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:29:39 ehird, is your model "imac"? 23:29:48 yes 23:29:58 imac g5 is ppc I guess 23:30:00 my ideas are sexually meaningful. 23:30:00 so what imac 23:30:06 oklopol: mine also. 23:30:08 oh. 23:30:11 AnMaster: one just after g5 23:30:16 september 2006 intel core 2 duo 23:30:17 ehird, what do I google for 23:30:18 are yours gradually approachable? 23:30:18 NOT aluminium 23:30:24 AnMaster: erm, imac core 2 duo 23:30:26 oklopol: yes. 23:30:27 ah 23:30:28 also gradually unapproachable. 23:30:31 hah. mine aren't. 23:30:34 they get more and more taboo. it ends with child rape. 23:30:40 SO ANYWAY. 23:30:46 you can only gradually approach that which is close to what you already know. 23:30:54 and mine are lightyears ahead. 23:30:57 oklopol: i invented a new type of gradual approaching. 23:31:04 oh 23:31:08 well that does sound kinda serious. 23:31:08 it involves making bad analogies to current systems, then outright explaining the radical ideas 23:31:12 your brain goes into shock and then absorbs it. 23:31:18 :D 23:31:20 okay i love it 23:31:27 where do i send my moneys 23:31:43 4 orchard terrace, hexham, northumberland, united kingdom, ne46 3pw 23:31:47 (yes that's my real address) 23:32:12 hmm. 23:32:19 now is it really? 23:32:21 yep. 23:32:24 at least it's close. 23:32:42 so sounds plausible it'd be correct 23:32:47 then again you probably know what i know. 23:33:09 because you're the only source for that type of data. 23:33:33 :d 23:33:35 :d 23:33:36 :d 23:33:38 agh 23:33:39 I CAN'T SHIFT 23:33:43 ah 23:33:44 there 23:33:45 ehird, what? 23:33:49 AnMaster: nothin 23:33:50 g 23:33:52 adjusting keyboard layout 23:33:53 huh 23:33:56 ehird, ah 23:34:00 ehird, you found it? 23:34:03 yah 23:34:13 so oklopol can I explain my os-ly ideas 23:34:15 oh I guess it is different for ubuntu, probably has some fancy place to do it 23:34:20 AnMaster: no, just kde 23:34:22 in system prefs 23:34:28 ehird, ah what about console? 23:34:34 ah you don't care I guess 23:34:36 :P 23:34:37 bingo :P 23:34:44 if I'm at the console my objective is to escape it asap 23:34:49 probably I broke X 23:34:51 okay funniest thing in at least 10 minutes 23:34:57 "ehird: I CAN'T SHIFT" <<< thought you said "SHIT" 23:35:01 it was funny with the smileys. 23:35:03 i did 23:35:04 secretly 23:35:06 ehird, did you try looking for some apple irc channel? 23:35:06 :| 23:35:09 I'm sure there is one 23:35:21 AnMaster: sure, but not linux+mac 23:35:26 ehird, ah 23:35:28 sure? 23:35:30 ehird: you can explain sure. 23:35:30 yep 23:35:33 * ehird installs emacs 23:35:42 ehird, I heard there was one called #esoteric or something.. 23:35:45 :-D 23:35:55 oklopol: okay so before I start, I have to explainerate the context of this OS 23:36:08 well sure explainerate through it. 23:36:26 basically, a simple bootloader and system setup sort of stuff in asm, then it runs a lisp compiler like sbcl and compiles the rest of the kernel & os on the fly 23:36:27 then it runs them 23:36:28 how fun, I google for linux fancontrol imac intel' 23:36:31 err -' 23:36:34 this has the effect that the rest of the OS is written in lisp 23:36:38 and the first hit doesn't have "linux" on it 23:36:39 anywhere 23:36:40 and you can modify right down to the kernel at runtime 23:36:43 stupid google 23:36:44 and it works 23:36:53 (you can't modify the asm part but that's just a tiny part, only for bootup) 23:36:59 and you can modify right down to the kernel at runtime <-- you mean hot patch kernel at runtime 23:37:02 AnMaster: yep 23:37:03 sorry MS patent 23:37:08 i don't care 23:37:09 that is what prevented it for linux 23:37:09 hah. 23:37:13 it's been done before MS did it 23:37:27 if they sue me 1) i'm a minor 2) that patent would be struck down almost certainly 23:37:50 oklopol: so, not only do we have lisp (awesome) we have an OS that you can hack random stuff in oko-style just like that 23:37:57 pretty good basis if I do say so myself 23:38:30 Somehow I doubt there's going to be anything new with PLAN9 Unix. 23:38:32 http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/ 23:38:33 I installed it once, nothing runs, nothing works, it's very cut down. I think it uses TWM, but with not even as much as Firefox existing, I'm unsure how useful it could be. 23:38:35 ^^ please let that be sarcasm 23:38:57 AnMaster: so what exactly did they patent? the general concept of being able to change parts of the os at runtime? 23:39:00 ehird, http://lwn.net/Articles/280058/ 23:39:02 oklopol, ^ 23:39:06 what's the definition of hot-patching a kernel 23:39:12 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:39:15 oklopol, see that link 23:39:23 oh and http://www.ksplice.com/ 23:39:31 AnMaster: that's a US-only patent right? 23:39:40 ehird, don't know 23:39:43 then people in the US use the system at their own risk :P 23:39:51 (where risk = 0) 23:40:04 AnMaster: software patents are invalid in europe 23:40:07 due to recent court ruling 23:40:08 s 23:40:11 ehird, :) 23:40:20 but I'm sure MS and others will try to change that 23:40:29 yeah 23:40:32 you can't be sure how long it will last 23:40:47 anyway, yeah, the lisp isn't an interpreter, so it's fast enough for an OS, 23:40:50 but it's more jit-style 23:40:52 except ... more batch 23:41:01 as in, it can recompile on the fly, but it doesn't do it every line of code 23:41:07 eh 23:41:09 hm? 23:41:16 AnMaster: the lisp in my os 23:41:22 ehird, how will you manage to avoid some low level asm? 23:41:28 custom instruction set? 23:41:36 no, there will be some asm 23:41:38 ah 23:41:40 for the initial bootup and really low level stuff 23:41:45 ehird, that can be changed on fly? 23:41:51 no, unfortunately not 23:41:56 but the compiler will probably have inline asm 23:41:56 ehird, why not? 23:42:08 AnMaster: because modifying bootup stuff is useless 23:42:12 you have to reboot to run it anyway 23:42:14 ehird, also have you looked at QNX? 23:42:17 yes 23:42:25 isn't it semi-open now 23:42:30 but anyway, a lot of the stuff you might think needs asm might not 23:42:31 not sure what license 23:42:32 due to inline asm in the lisp 23:42:36 (and ofc you could modify that) 23:42:37 does that patent only apply to computers? 23:42:39 but pretty sure it is open/shared source atm 23:42:42 oh 23:42:44 says so right. 23:43:12 ok, heretical idea #2: 23:43:18 oklopol, What you just said sounded very interesting but I'm not sure where you can take that 23:43:23 anyway you can't patent that. while it may not be true, it's a fact. 23:43:39 ehird, where was idea #1? 23:43:40 AnMaster: well i was just wondering what exactly it is they patented 23:43:51 AnMaster: the lisp-recompilingy thingy u pthere 23:43:58 oklopol, ask a lawyer, no one else can read the text 23:44:05 ehird, ah 23:44:10 so idea 2: 23:44:12 so what is idea #2 then? 23:44:40 brb 23:44:41 orthogonal persistence. this is, very simply, persistence of memory to disk. To quote Torsion's readme: (torsion was an experimental OS implementing orthogonal persistence:) 23:44:42 and how can you invent hot-patching, not doing hot-patching is not theoretically meaningful, it's just a performance optimization. 23:44:42 What this means is that you can write a valueto anywhere in memory, [...], trip over the power cable, and then on the next boot that value 23:44:44 will still be exactly where you set it in memory. What's more, you can 23:44:45 malloc() a chunk of memory, and on the next boot it will remain allocated. 23:45:07 so, after a memory-changing operation is performed, it works immediately, after a tiny delay, it's written to disk 23:45:17 the same is done for computations: so you can be in the middle of an intensive 3d render 23:45:21 **trip over power cable** 23:45:22 reboot it 23:45:24 it resumes like nothing happened 23:45:29 ehird, that would probably have performance issues due to the speed diff between ram and disk 23:45:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("bye"). 23:45:34 AnMaster: that's why you wait a bita 23:45:37 and do it in another thread 23:45:49 all operations just go to RAM, the disk stuff just runs in the background at oppertune times 23:45:59 ehird, to make that useful you would need some sort of transactional stuff 23:46:01 for everything 23:46:05 AnMaster: not quite 23:46:13 there are ways to do it, but too boring/long to explain here 23:46:19 ehird, otherwise this will cause everything to break at crash really 23:46:23 no 23:46:26 there are implementations that work 23:46:31 you just don't have enough of an imagination :) 23:46:34 really? links or what? 23:46:37 ehird: while no current os may support those, they aren't exactly very interesting. you're just removing limitations that shouldn't be there in the first place. 23:46:42 http://torsion.org 23:46:44 oklopol: those come later 23:46:48 I'm going more heretical as it goes on 23:46:49 since I have not enough of an imagination to know what to google for 23:46:50 ah i see. 23:46:54 anyway, so, orthogonal persistence: it's possible, it's been done for quite a long time, and it means just saying no to data loss & computation loss 23:46:57 additionally 23:47:27 this means you can COMPLETELY DO AWAY WITH THE FILESYSTEM. Just use memory. One address space. Clean, logical, simple, efficient. Instead of the monocultured interface of the FS, data can be presented in various ways according to its type and the best representation. 23:47:29 http://torsion.org <-- any introduction? Like readme or whatever. the docs seems like doxygen api docs 23:47:35 *AnMaster explodes* 23:47:41 AnMaster: nope. it's dormant. read the code. 23:47:52 I see 23:47:59 * AnMaster opens url in ark 23:48:17 ehird: so stuff to memory persistently all the time, is it a log-structured fs or something? 23:48:18 ah README 23:48:19 so, heretical ideas: 1) runtime-modifiable lisp OS 2) orthogonal persistence 2a) no FS -- just use orthogonal persistence 23:48:34 oklopol: you pretty much just mirror the memory to disk 23:48:52 ehird, fun fact about this: memory leaks persist until you free them by hand 23:48:53 :D 23:48:59 2a is a bit more heretical, but it's still something i can't imagine anyone *not* having in an os, file systems make absolutely no sense. 23:49:15 oklopol: i totally agree 23:49:19 you do? 23:49:21 OSes today are just crap 23:49:24 ehird, which is hard since you don't know where they are 23:49:27 since they leaked 23:49:28 this stuff is pretty obvious 23:49:36 i'm pretty sure i've said that before and you've laughed at my weirdness 23:49:38 ehird, you need to somehow handle memory leaks 23:49:38 but maybe not 23:49:41 AnMaster: you can use regular tools like valgrind 23:49:48 plus, most stuff should be written using a high level language 23:49:52 like, y'know, the lisp :P 23:50:00 for legacy C programs, wrap a gc or whatever around them. 23:50:23 but I'm mostly unconcerned about backwards compatibility; that just leads to cruft 23:50:28 ehird, how could you garbage collect the lisp, you would need to mark the persistent object to not GC or such 23:50:41 AnMaster: sure, you mark documents you want as kept 23:50:48 it's just a few trix 23:50:51 oklopol's useful tip #1: forget legacy code, being backwards-compatible is for monkeys 23:50:56 ehird, then it isn't full orthogonal persistence for everything? 23:50:59 it is 23:51:02 hm ok 23:51:06 oklopol: i have some actually heretical ideas, but OSes today are so ridiculously behind that you have to go gradually 23:51:19 i pretty much plan to implement the should-already-exist heretical ones, then experiment further with the more heretical ones 23:51:26 ehird: true. 23:51:33 but for your avg linux user, 1-2a are already pretty wtfy 23:51:40 * AnMaster ponders real word reference counting garbage collection 23:51:42 in fact 23:51:45 I think it is happening 23:51:54 AnMaster: reminds me of my tiny url garbage collector 23:52:04 or why is everyone trying to get referenced in papers and such 23:52:09 you scan all atoms in the universe for references to the URL, encrypted in any way shape or form 23:52:11 AnMaster: you mean like ppl coming to your house and observing what you're using and what not, and taking away the stuff that you don't? 23:52:13 if there's none, remove the URL. 23:52:19 and scientific papers wants to get referenced by other papers 23:52:25 to not become garbage collected 23:52:31 same as people in media 23:52:46 heh 23:52:59 oklopol: wanna share some of your ideas? i've probably heard of them but i'm intrigued 23:53:05 more people know about you = less risk of being collected by the ninja garbage collectors 23:53:05 :D 23:53:14 i love ninjas. sexually. 23:53:15 err. 23:53:17 ehird: well actually to be clear i don't consider 1 a feature every os should absolutely have :P 23:53:20 disregard that 23:53:20 ehird, hah 23:53:25 oklopol: you're wrong :D 23:53:26 but maybe i should. 23:53:27 yeah 23:53:29 probably 23:53:30 :) 23:53:33 ehird, ninja NOMADS?! 23:53:42 AnMaster: yes. they're purely functional, you must understand. 23:53:47 no unneccessary objects on them. 23:53:47 oh no I think ehird's brain exploded 23:54:11 oklopol: in fact, my features are only a small step to be considered "decent" by me. i have a very high standard of "decent", "good" is near impossible :P 23:55:12 ehird, I think in real world, for things to be useful, certain things need to be "weakrefs" 23:55:21 AnMaster: yes, this is all details 23:55:22 ninja MONADS!! 23:55:23 or you would only keep the worst 23:55:25 the basic idea is what matters 23:55:26 I mean 23:55:33 stuff like bad politicians 23:55:34 and such 23:55:39 ehird: my ideas are pretty simple, i just want everything to use a unified very dynamic object type. webpages containing pictures actually being just a list of picture objects on a remote site (which you cannot in general detect) and all that. type conversion being a very fundamental concept in the os, for "different formats", that is different implementations of the same concept. 23:55:40 would never be garbage collected 23:55:46 even though they should 23:55:54 oklopol: right, that's more higher level than I've been talkin' about 23:56:04 ehird: yes, but i'm a nutcase 23:56:06 :D 23:56:08 :D 23:56:12 ehird, btw you shouldn't use a refcount GC 23:56:17 yeah no shit 23:56:19 i know this 23:56:44 ehird, I read some article by jwz complaining about current GCs, but he didn't explain what a good one actually was 23:56:55 jews are like that 23:57:00 always complaining about gc 23:57:01 oklopol, ? 23:57:04 jwz = jews. 23:57:05 what? 23:57:07 pronounciation 23:57:09 err 23:57:11 ah 23:57:15 now I didn't mean that 23:57:23 well when did you mean it? 23:57:24 AnMaster: I recall around jan 08 you said that all gcs suck, and you should do it the "proper way" (malloc/free) 23:57:26 I mean jwz as in the well known programmer jwz 23:57:31 also you were basing this entirely on experience with java 23:57:36 oklopol, worked at netscape 23:57:37 the channel had quite a laugh... 23:57:47 AnMaster: stop ruining his pun : 23:57:49 :P 23:58:01 ehird, yes I still think bohem-gc isn't a very good GC, but I'm interested in seeing a good one 23:58:13 take a look at the sbcl gc, cheney on the mta, Factor's gc 23:58:16 this is because bohem-gc managed to cause memory corruption 23:58:18 who cares as long as it's asymptotically optimal :o 23:58:22 ehird, hm ok I will 23:58:32 AnMaster: boehm has issues because it's in C 23:58:43 the bohemes never got rid of their garbage 23:58:50 i would probably enjoy making a theoretical os for a turing machine more than an actual os. 23:58:50 ehird, yes indeed. So why is the Python GC even worse 23:58:51 you can only have conservative gc 23:58:55 -!- M0ny has quit ("Quit"). 23:58:55 would be pretty cool 23:58:57 AnMaster: python is just not a very good impl 23:59:02 ehird, perl GC? 23:59:06 and 23:59:07 oklopol: but imagine using your OS 4eva 23:59:09 AnMaster: those are just refcounting 23:59:10 why doesn't someone replace them 23:59:11 refcounting is shite 23:59:12 i hope i'm as crazy as i am now when i grow up and know all kindsa awesome shit. 23:59:15 and because nobody cares enough 23:59:36 ehird, I agree. So what I want is an introduction to GOOD GCs. 23:59:49 the people who would write such things are busy making money off language impls :P 23:59:49 ehird: well my dream is to make the perfect os, and use it alone because no one else is willing to start over :D 23:59:57 (and also because i'm not going to advertise it) 2009-02-22: 00:00:01 ehird, yes, the world is fail 00:00:01 oklopol: my dream is to make a modern lisp machine 00:00:02 (damn that'd be cool :D) 00:00:06 and use my OS on it 00:00:12 my own freaking hardware RUNNING LISP. 00:00:17 ehird, price? 00:00:29 AnMaster: well, fabricating silicon costs millions :p 00:00:34 so I'd sell it for millions! 00:00:39 hah 00:00:46 oerjan: you're back? either i missed that, or i imagined your departure. 00:00:55 he came back like 30m ago 00:01:04 oklopol, he isn't here 00:01:07 don't be silly 00:01:11 oh 00:01:21 oklopol, maybe you need to visit a doctor if you are imagining things? 00:01:28 okay, guess there's no use seeing what he answered to my message then. 00:01:46 that may be for the best. 00:01:51 oklopol, there was no message. The message was a lie. 00:01:54 oklopol do you have a 64 bit cpu 00:01:56 well i like lies 00:01:59 ehird: no 00:02:02 I do! 00:02:04 at least i don't think so... 00:02:10 AnMaster: also, it was chocolate 00:02:12 and I know ehird has too 00:02:12 okay my OS will support 32-bit then so you can use it :-P 00:02:23 oerjan, the message was a chocolate? 00:02:25 eh? 00:02:28 i was planning only to support x86_64 00:02:32 and have no 32-bit compatibility mode. 00:02:33 chocolate messages are the best 00:02:42 oerjan, you are right 00:03:35 the window dec & shadow of this kde looks like vista on unfocused windows 00:03:40 well 00:03:42 just the shadow 00:03:44 i notice the weirdest things. 00:03:53 ehird, err 00:03:57 change KDE theme? 00:04:12 ehird, possibly extra themes may be a separate package 00:04:16 they are for KDE 3 iirc 00:04:18 no, it looks nice 00:04:20 :P 00:04:34 the shadow just vaguely looks like vista under certain conditions 00:04:36 ehird, "looks like vista" "it looks nice" 00:04:38 fail 00:04:44 "shadow looks like vista" 00:04:49 also, vista isn't too ugly. 00:04:51 it beats xp. 00:04:56 and gnome. 00:05:10 ehird, win2000 beats all of them 00:05:12 fact 00:05:16 win2000 is fugly 00:05:26 ehird, Mac OS 7 beats win2000 00:05:32 cp/m ftw 00:05:38 ehird, nah 00:05:46 SYMBOLICS GENERA FTW 00:05:49 ^ and I mean it 00:05:56 yes of course 00:06:08 i so want to splash out $3500 on a lisp machine :-( 00:06:16 well, + plane fee to avoid absurd shipping costs 00:06:22 ehird: yay thank you. except now i need to use it. 00:06:28 oklopol: ??? 00:06:35 water color painting beats them all! 00:06:42 "so oklo, i wrote these 30000 lines of compatibility code for your 32-bit" 00:06:43 ehird, wow: http://symbolics.com/ 00:06:52 "wanna try the os?" 00:06:54 AnMaster: what about it? 00:07:01 ehird, you can still get it :) 00:07:04 sure 00:07:07 they're not making any new ones 00:07:19 it's just a lifeless shell of a company 00:07:23 ehird, true 00:07:24 but they'll still give you a lisp machine on request 00:07:36 ehird, really? they have some left in stock? 00:07:39 and what do they cost 00:07:53 $3500 for the top of the line one 00:07:58 + insanely high shipping costs 00:08:01 ehird, which is outdated yes 00:08:05 second 00:08:09 finding the price list 00:08:11 but question is, do they make new ones 00:08:15 absolutely not 00:08:19 I don't think they have since the 80s 00:08:21 or just sell out what is left of stock? 00:08:26 which isn't going fast? 00:08:29 yep 00:08:50 AnMaster: http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt 00:08:52 full price lists 00:09:09 * AnMaster looks 00:09:10 the macivory stuff is a modified mac + lisp card 00:09:13 less pure but cheaper 00:09:24 you'd either want the XL120{0,1} or the 36xx 00:09:28 hah 00:09:33 the latter is $675 00:09:41 which is surprisingly cheap 00:09:43 like, really 00:09:51 hehe 00:10:04 that david k schmidt guy commented on an opengenera piratebay torrent 00:10:12 read and lol: 00:10:30 dkschmidt at 2007-08-15 02:24 CET: 00:10:31 Congratulations on downloading the finest software development environment ever created. If you want to find out more about Genera or would like to have a Symbolics Lisp Machine, check out the Symbolics website at www.symbolics.com or contact sales@symbolics.com. 00:10:45 hmm 00:11:00 can i go now? 00:11:11 NO. 00:11:26 certainly you can. whether you may is a different matter. 00:11:32 ehird, oh where can I get opengenera? 00:11:36 and where can I use it 00:11:53 like do I need an ALPHA emulator or such? 00:11:57 lemme find the bloggers post for you 00:12:03 AnMaster: http://collison.ie/blog/2008/04/lisp-machines 00:12:09 unless you have accidentally got stuck on something, i guess. 00:12:18 AnMaster: you need a separate lunix 00:12:20 install 00:12:28 lunix? 00:12:29 because genera writes over /etc/hosts 00:12:30 and similar 00:12:32 AnMaster: linux :P 00:12:32 or even if you did it on purpose. 00:12:35 ah 00:12:43 ehird, well I could have it in a chroot yes 00:12:53 oerjan: but will i? 00:13:06 and most importantly, should i 00:13:07 oklopol: do i look like an oracle? 00:13:13 well 00:13:17 yes 00:13:18 ehird, torrent still live? 00:13:31 yep 00:13:33 well 00:13:36 quite slow last time I ran it 00:13:37 but live 00:13:44 tpb is currently in court 00:13:55 the court is currently saying "yeah, go away prosecutors" 00:13:57 do I dare use it atm? Probably not 00:13:59 i see. but not the future, alas. 00:14:02 because their arguments are ridiculous 00:14:06 AnMaster: they're not suing the users 00:14:07 just the operators 00:14:17 ehird, well who knows what will happen in the future 00:14:17 also 00:14:25 last I looked it wasn't like that 00:14:26 :/ 00:14:30 oerjan => oreajn => oraejn => (rotate n into a c) oraejc => oracej => (straighten j and reverse the end) oracle 00:14:47 AnMaster: the only thing in the logs will be you hitting TPB tracker 00:14:50 since the rest is totally distributed 00:14:55 isn't that where you got your nick? 00:15:01 nope 00:15:02 and hitting a bittorrent tracker URL is hardly illegal 00:15:19 oerjan: oh, sorry, my mistake, i guess i'll have to listen to ehird then. 00:15:21 unless you live in oceania 00:15:26 ehird, err 00:15:29 error from tracker 00:15:30 wth 00:15:35 now that is odd 00:15:35 "invalid response from tracker" 00:15:36 what error? 00:15:38 hm. 00:15:39 so i guess i'm stuck here forever. 00:15:41 give it a few minutes 00:15:44 ehird, ktorrent 00:15:47 oklopol: beware of lying oracles. 00:15:50 maybe I should try some other one 00:15:52 should work in a bit 00:16:07 ehird, wonder what it means 00:16:11 invalid in what way 00:16:16 servers are having a booboo? 00:16:24 oerjan: would an oracle lie just to be able to hint he did with a metaphor? 00:16:28 if you live in oceania, knowing that bittorrent trackers exist is illegal. 00:16:37 ehird, as in timed out, error message, corrupt data, or what? 00:16:42 AnMaster: who knows 00:17:04 oklopol: quite possibly 00:17:26 ehird, btw who is that "dkschmidt"? 00:17:32 oerjan: damn i was hoping for a metaphor :P 00:18:13 hmm. maybe i'll sleep anyway. play by my own rules. 00:18:14 -> 00:18:16 wth 00:18:17 AnMaster: symbolics salesman 00:18:19 same guy on symbolics.com 00:18:23 and at the end of that price list 00:18:26 ah 00:18:35 ehird, in other words he doesn't care very much 00:18:44 most likely 00:18:51 even if he really cares, he's taking advantage of the situation :P 00:19:09 seems like timeout 00:19:36 oklopol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interactive_proof_system 00:20:09 udp://tracker.thepiratebay.org:80/announce == dead 00:20:39 oh 00:20:41 AnMaster: replace it with http 00:20:42 ipv6 fail 00:20:45 oh 00:20:53 ehird, I suspect 00:21:20 or not 00:21:23 non-ipv6 fail 00:21:31 it responds to ping6 but not ping 00:21:32 wth 00:22:40 maybe ktorrent can't handle ipv6 00:22:40 or 00:22:45 maybe my firewall fails 00:24:53 holy fuck emacs fonts are huge 00:25:16 ehird, change the terminal font then 00:25:23 or using it in X mode? 00:25:24 gtk emacs :P 00:25:27 then change the emacs font 00:25:30 somewhere 00:25:34 yeah it's just dpi problems 00:37:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MandelbrotOrbitInfimum.png omg ew ugly 00:40:43 ehird, torrent still broken 00:40:45 will try again later 00:40:53 i have the file 00:40:56 so I can dcc it 00:40:59 hm ok 00:41:05 well let me check if dcc is setup 00:42:18 ehird, try to dcc it now. hopefully it will work 00:42:23 more proof that the mandelbrot set is really a Great Old One... 00:42:35 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MandelbrotOrbitInfimum.png omg ew ugly <-- nice 00:42:46 uglyyyyyyyy 00:42:47 it makes me want to vomit 00:42:55 file:///media/Macintosh HD/Users/ehird/Saved/2009-02/opengenera/opengenera2.tar.bz2 00:42:57 hmm. 00:42:58 fail. 00:43:02 ehird, well I would have used another colour scheme 00:43:17 blue instead of pink 00:43:21 but apart from that: nice 00:43:34 the belly button X_X 00:43:39 AnMaster: yo I dcc'd 00:43:52 err 00:43:55 no? 00:44:01 very yes 00:44:05 agh, I guess firewall 00:44:06 * ehird filebins it 00:44:10 ehird, maybe my bnc fails? 00:44:14 or your bnc 00:44:19 router 00:44:20 probably 00:44:23 it's shit 00:44:33 want a linksys pronto... 00:45:13 <*status> DCC Xfer Bounce (ehird): Timeout waiting for incoming connection [192.168.0.64:60386] 00:45:15 yes indeed 00:45:23 not sure what that means 00:45:27 " Must be less than 50 megabytes" 00:45:28 fuck. 00:45:34 ehird, says who? 00:45:54 specs? 00:46:38 filebin.ca 00:47:10 k 00:47:17 * AnMaster waits for url 00:47:22 " Must be less than 50 megabytes" 00:47:23 IC an't use it 00:47:27 ah 00:52:35 ehird, oh I see 00:52:40 look at the ip you sent 00:52:44 in the above dcc error 00:52:48 hah 00:52:50 that is the issue 00:52:56 wait 00:52:56 no 00:53:01 that is my ip 00:53:05 ehird, something is up anyway 00:53:14 oh and the torrent seems to work in rtorrent 00:53:19 maybe because it uses ipv6 00:53:27 so no need for your help it seems :) 00:53:29 thanks anyway 00:57:30 AnMaster: Boggle yer mind: 00:57:32 >>> def two(): return 1. + (two()/2.) 00:57:34 ... 00:57:35 >>> two = recur_default(two, 10, 0) 00:57:37 >>> two_ = use_rd(two) 00:57:38 >>> two_() 00:57:40 1.9990234375 00:57:41 python? 00:57:41 Also oklopol's mind. 00:57:45 yep. 00:57:49 Finite infinite recursion! 00:58:01 ehhah 00:58:03 hehe* 00:58:17 ehird, nice but what about about it 00:58:26 also is that python 2.x? 00:58:31 * AnMaster really likes python 3 00:58:33 works in both 00:58:39 ah 00:58:40 AnMaster: well, can't you see? I wrote a function that calls itself infinite times 00:58:45 then approximated its value 00:58:54 ehird, what is recur_default()? 00:59:01 My secret sauce. 00:59:09 ehird, where is it defined? 00:59:15 and what does it look like 00:59:22 recur_default.py 00:59:26 :P 00:59:36 ehird, not making it public yet? 00:59:44 tell me when you will make it public 00:59:48 in a min 00:59:51 since I'm going to be in 5 minutes 01:00:43 just need to iron out some creases 01:02:58 specifically, a nicer call interface 01:03:17 ehird, does this work for any infinite series? 01:03:24 any infinite recursion 01:03:25 defined in recursive form 01:03:28 hm ok 01:03:40 ehird, using much black magic? 01:03:48 AnMaster: it basically just checks the callstack 01:03:50 to see if you recurse 01:03:56 if we've already recursed N times, return the default value 01:03:58 interesting 01:07:34 ehird, pure python or using the C API? 01:07:43 doing this with C API sounds trivial 01:07:51 pure python 01:07:52 sys._getframe() 01:08:03 there is even stuff in the C API to detect if you recursed 01:08:37 ehird, hm how do you insert yourself in the call 01:08:38 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:08:53 I mean you need to replace the two() call with some custom routine 01:09:02 decorators 01:09:03 that checks the recursion 01:09:03 >>> [two(limit=i) for i in range(0,10)] 01:09:05 [1.0, 1.5, 1.75, 1.875, 1.9375, 1.96875, 1.984375, 1.9921875,1.99609375, 1.998046875] 01:09:11 hm I see 01:09:24 AnMaster: the code + example: http://pastie.org/396402 01:09:25 err 01:09:28 @@recur_default should be @recur_default 01:09:50 kwargs? 01:09:52 btw, two() reaches 2.0 on my system at 53 01:09:54 what does that name mean 01:09:55 AnMaster: like foo=bar 01:09:57 keyword arguments 01:10:00 ah 01:10:01 right 01:10:11 **kwargs? 01:10:17 looks like C to me ;P 01:10:58 ehird, hm ok 01:11:05 I need to read that when less sleepy 01:11:20 hmm 01:11:25 change > new_func.limit to >= new_func.limit 01:11:28 bye -> 01:11:34 ehird, night too 01:47:19 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:08:50 B;eh 02:08:52 "Note from Dr. ██████████: I believe I know where all our bandwidth is going at night. Agent ████'s computer privileges should be limited until he either finds a girlfriend or learns some self control." 02:09:13 They're describing material on floppy disks of infinite capacity 02:09:21 Why are they talking about bandwidth? 02:09:26 http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-335 02:23:37 right, pizza-time, if they are still open at 02:22 am 02:25:29 * oerjan recalls this place that used to be open until 4 am in weekends. don't know if they still are. 02:35:54 excellent 02:36:17 like the instant computation machine that you have to keep plugged in for as long as the computation would take 02:36:27 a floppy disk of infinite capacity 02:36:57 in the category of a seemingly small flaw making the thing useless 02:37:23 --speed. 02:38:57 hm but if it could be pre-initialized it could at least be used to solve NP-complete problems 02:40:56 i guess you would need the instant computation machine for that, though 02:50:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:06:24 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 03:24:44 Wait, by "instant computation machine", are you talking about my idea, or some SCP, or somethign else? 03:27:33 don't ask me, as comex 03:27:35 *ask 03:27:49 * oerjan spanks his keyboard 03:32:06 I think it was your and ehird's 03:33:03 that time travel thing? 03:40:14 * Sgeo loves http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/incident-239-b-clef-kondraki and would love it more if he was looking into the individual SCPs, probably 03:47:15 * Sgeo seriously lols at http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/supplemental-report-239-b-192 04:17:02 right, after that distraction, really going for pizza 04:27:24 http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/experiment-log-447-a 05:30:10 -!- Blasterfire has joined. 05:51:20 -!- Blasterfire has left (?). 06:08:58 http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/GregorRichards/catastrophile2.png 06:19:42 i don't get it 06:20:27 GregorR has boners for dead babies 06:21:54 Context is for the weak. 06:22:14 * oerjan notes that the truck is disturbing all by itself 06:23:02 also, that catastrophile1.png is nonexistent 06:23:22 That's because it's catastrophile.png 06:23:28 ah 06:23:50 why then does the error message say "moved or deleted". hmph. 06:24:30 http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/GregorRichards/catastrophile.png 06:24:32 E_WORKSFORME 06:24:47 with 1, duh 06:25:04 if it never existed, that is. 06:25:14 Ohhh, I see :P 06:25:17 * oerjan notes that the truck is disturbing all by itself 06:25:18 ooh, that scp-wiki is awesome 06:25:20 Thanks for that X-D 06:25:23 I enjoyed that truck. 06:25:39 also, i have no idea what that thing on the stairs is 06:26:40 which might explain why you didn't link it first. unless you have. 06:27:18 I linked catastrophile2.png first because I thought it was funnier :P 06:27:21 Those are body parts 06:27:48 ic. maybe. 06:46:31 http://spamusement.com/forums/images/avatars/173094260849a0f4a14b025.gif 06:46:33 :) 06:53:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:00:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 07:03:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:16:14 http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-360 :) 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:28:54 GregorR: is it okay i was desperately waiting for that gif truck to crash? 08:30:10 oh it crashes in the other 08:36:11 oko 08:43:38 okokokokokokoko 08:43:40 okokokokokokoko 08:43:45 okokokokokokokokokokoko 08:43:55 do you like numbers? 08:44:37 yes? 08:46:40 i see 08:47:03 i'm being mauled. 08:47:14 by a wolf 08:47:39 cute 08:47:55 but not as cute as your precious numbers huh 08:48:43 possibly cuter! 08:56:55 pussy blot icer 09:46:19 -!- kar8nga has joined. 10:12:47 -!- impomatic has joined. 10:14:58 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:19:00 -!- Mony has joined. 11:27:14 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:16:55 -!- Corun has joined. 12:28:23 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:28:35 -!- oklopol has joined. 13:24:26 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:37:30 ais523, hi 13:37:40 btw how do you write hexdecimal integers in scheme? 13:37:45 I don't know 13:37:56 ah 13:38:08 in or out? 13:38:51 oklopol, as in (define foo 0x123) 13:39:01 but that doesn't do what I wanted 13:39:03 if you mean having hex in the code, there's a whole well-written section about the numbers in r5rs. 13:39:15 yeah it's not like that 13:39:22 hmm... is it 16#123, or have I got the wrong language there? 13:39:22 k will look 13:39:26 try 123h, 123x, x123, h123 13:39:29 ais523, that sounds erlang 13:39:32 ah, maybe 13:39:49 ais523, which means it may be prolog too I gueszs 13:39:51 guess* 13:39:58 gah cold fnigers 13:40:00 ... 13:40:01 fingers* 13:40:06 i recall b was used for binary, but i haven't really used numbers in scheme. 13:40:57 oklopol, h prefix/suffix both says unbound variables 13:41:01 variable* 13:41:03 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:41:19 so does b and x 13:41:50 in both mzscheme and guile 13:43:22 hmm. 13:43:29 then i've probably imagined it all. 13:44:38 ah #x 13:49:26 (string->number "100" 16) 13:49:26 = 13:49:26 ? 13:49:26 well that's for output 13:49:26 indeed 13:49:26 err 13:49:26 err 13:49:26 input 13:49:26 sorry misread 13:49:26 yeah that works 13:49:26 but #x123 13:49:26 # is used for all the stuff you can specify about a number 13:49:26 oklopol, so what about other bases? like base 14? 13:49:26 you can't do that in a literal 13:49:26 also you can't do floating point in anything but decimal in scheme either iirc 13:49:26 > #h101 13:49:26 readline::81: read: expected `a' or `x' after #h 13:49:26 mhm 13:49:26 * AnMaster wonders what that is then 13:49:26 yeah stuff that isn't legal scheme often errors out 13:49:26 oklopol, duh yes 13:49:26 but what is #ha supposed to me 13:49:26 be* 13:49:26 #h is not specified by the standard 13:49:26 mzscheme extension then 13:49:26 > #hx101 13:49:26 101 13:49:26 mhm 13:49:26 lol :D 13:49:49 oklopol, too lazy to search docs for what it does 13:51:10 err 13:51:10 grammar fail 13:51:10 what what does? 13:51:10 oklopol, too lazy to search mzscheme docs for what #hx/#ha means 13:51:10 why would you care? 13:53:48 well now I care 13:54:10 #hx starts a Honu expression; see Honu Parsing 13:54:10 #hash starts a hash table; see Reading Hash Tables 13:54:11 hm 13:54:41 wth 13:54:44 "Honu is a family of languages built on top of Scheme. Honu syntax resembles Java." 13:58:50 :D 14:01:05 ais523, which is the correct way to express "foo mmap()s blah blah" should one use "mmap()s" or "mmaps()"? Or maybe just "mmaps"? 14:02:45 I'd say mmap()s 14:02:51 ok 14:02:55 thanks 14:03:03 ais523, would it be "abort()'d" too? 14:03:11 it's probably not correct English, but amongst programmers the habit is to write anything that has to be written literally literally 14:03:14 and no, abort()ed 14:03:21 also if you wish to refer to man page section, would you use: mmap(2)s ? 14:03:36 I don't really think pluralising a man page makes sense 14:03:49 ais523, hm it is a verb isn't it? 14:03:51 i always separate suffices with "'" 14:03:53 in this case 14:04:12 unless they are actual grammatical suffices 14:04:13 someprogram mmap(2)s blah blah 14:04:18 well, ok 14:04:33 hm 14:08:00 someprogram cu me zoi py. mmap(2) py. 14:08:17 oklopol, eh.. Finnish? 14:08:27 not at all 14:08:29 err spelling 14:08:48 anyway mmap() makes no sense in python, and you mentioned py twice on that line 14:10:05 didn't mean python 14:14:06 heh 14:20:17 xD 14:20:23 i just realized something 14:20:43 i've probably been feeling sick all weekend *because i'm sick* :D 14:21:03 why is that a :D? 14:21:25 because i didn't realize it. 14:22:47 i mean think about it 14:23:25 i feel like shit, and never for a minute stop to think why, i just quickly adapt myself to the situation and start doing things a bit differently, being under a blancket 24/7 etc 14:23:31 but i don't actually realize anything is wrong. 14:23:34 i'm like a cavemen. 14:23:35 *man 14:24:09 anyway should probably go to the shop, coke probably helps for flues. 14:27:16 ais523: the actual sickness isn't a ":D" or a ":(", because it's not bad enough anyway to actually hinder my studyings. i just find it funny how well i can ignore everything around me, including my body. 14:28:26 (also that "including my body" thing i said that way just so you could ask whether i actually don't consider my body a part of myself; i'm not sure why i assumed you would) 14:28:51 your body may be a part of you the person 14:28:57 it's nothing to do with oklopol the nick, though 14:29:04 I only talk to your thoughts over IRC 14:29:09 not the things that surround them 14:29:23 maybe you just talk to my fingers tho. 14:29:31 it's not like i actually actively control thhem 14:29:32 *them 14:29:38 i just let them live on the kb 14:29:41 I assume your fingers aren't intelligent enough to make sense without your brain sending them information somehow 14:30:14 well i do admit what i type does go through my brain, but i honestly cannot say which way the information goes. 14:30:50 i mean through introspection, i do know enough anatomy to assume it's brain->hands. but you never know 14:31:17 (err through introspection was part of the earlier sentence, then a full stop before "i do know...") 14:31:28 (nm i should probably do that shoppery) 14:32:25 -> 14:34:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:01:10 hihi 15:01:52 05:38:51 oklopol, as in (define foo 0x123) 15:01:54 #x 15:01:56 #x123 15:02:01 yeah i told him 15:02:06 hie hird 15:02:19 oklopol: yeah I should have told him to read r5rs 15:02:23 it's only like 30 pages 15:02:27 ais523: hi 15:02:34 overall linux summary: better than before, but still not impressed. 15:03:06 also, don't use guile 15:03:07 did you get it working? 15:03:08 it's not scheme 15:03:11 seriously, i'm sick, this is so weird 15:03:12 ais523: yes, I'm talking via it now 15:03:25 did you get your wireless mouse/keyboard working? 15:03:58 Yes, although it's stupid and forgets it on every bootup so I have to manually connect with a USB keyboard. 15:04:31 ehird, strange 15:04:44 I think your beliefs about Linux are about right, decent but not actually good, and getting better all the time 15:04:46 is there no config file or such? 15:05:04 it's certainly good enough for me to use as the basis of my primary OS, I think your standards are higher than mine though 15:05:20 It's english-decent but not ehird-decent, I have a weird tounge. 15:05:21 ais523, btw I never had issues like those ehird had under linux. What I have had issues with is ATI and way way back a winmodem 15:05:23 AnMaster: yes, it's utterly ignored 15:05:32 ehird, heh 15:05:48 ais523: font rendering sucks badly 15:06:02 I like the font rendering, actually 15:06:07 ehird, however I still don't see why anything but kernel upgrade would need reboot 15:06:08 but we're probably looking for different things in it 15:06:17 like quicktime, is it in kernel or what? 15:06:17 AnMaster: turning off your laptop to take it home? 15:06:33 that's by far the most common reason I reboot mine 15:06:35 AnMaster: like 99% of apps, including the window manager etc, heavily use quicktime 15:06:38 ais523, I was talking about upgrades, of course there could be reasons like you need to move or such 15:06:39 so you hvae to restart them all anyway 15:06:44 or hardware upgrade 15:06:56 ais523: it's either too weedy, or so bulky you can see the oddly coloured subpixels 15:07:11 right now I have subpixel rendering off, and hinting=slight 15:07:17 it is barable 15:07:20 *bear-able 15:07:30 ehird: ah, does your screen resolution match your screen's actual resolution? 15:07:44 I'm using subpixel over here, and can't see the oddly coloured pixels 15:07:45 ehird, 99.999% of the apps on my system are dynamically linked to glibc, exceptions are probably only: busybox (static), valgrind (own libc) and ldconfig (static) 15:07:47 oh come on, don't ask trivial things like that 15:07:50 of course it does 15:07:53 ais523: so you have high hinting 15:07:54 right? 15:07:55 yet I upgraded glibc from 2.6 to 2.8 with KDE running 15:07:58 haven't rebooted yet 15:08:01 * ais523 checks 15:08:12 works fine, had to rebuild valgrind and gdb but that was it 15:08:13 AnMaster: yeah generally when you upgrade the intention is to USE THE UPGRADED THING 15:08:18 maybe wacky linux people don't understand that notion 15:08:24 ehird, yes I do use it for like 50% of the apps by now 15:08:33 like half of the KDE apps 15:08:34 subpixel with full hinting 15:08:42 AnMaster: and OS X reboots fast enough that you could use 100% of them in about 15 seconds 15:08:51 ais523: go to en.wikipedia.org 15:08:54 isn't the text horribly thin? 15:08:57 and klunked together 15:08:59 that was my problem 15:08:59 ehird: using which browser? 15:09:01 and which font? 15:09:10 Konqueror, and the default 15:09:20 by the way, does Konversation show as kde3 for you? 15:09:31 yes, there isn't a kde4 version yet 15:09:32 ehird, hm that depends, I have seen macs that take 2 minutes from sleep mode, though it was one that was set up to sync against some server at work. 15:09:37 so it's not surprising they shipped the kde3 version 15:09:49 AnMaster: "Example involving nothing to do with the actual reboot, this means the reboot is slow" 15:09:51 convincing 15:10:00 ehird, reboot takes like 10 minutes on it 15:10:13 wow, you can make a system take ages to run if you do stupid shit that takes time! 15:10:17 ehird: actually, around 1 minute to login screen, then 9 minutes after you hit login 15:10:19 you've convinced me. os x sucks 15:10:23 ehird: you're right, konqueror seems to screw up the kerning on wikipedia main page 15:10:24 no 15:10:29 I don't say OS X sucks 15:10:30 ais523: all subsequent pages, too 15:10:30 firefox manages it fine, though 15:10:42 let me try with Arora 15:10:42 ehird, what I'm saying is that it depends on what you are doing. 15:10:49 I suspect it's something to do with different defaults, rather than an intrinsic difference between the browsers 15:10:58 or possibly GTK vs. Qt, but I think that's less likely 15:11:12 AnMaster: your example is at best far out enough to be completely irrelevant; at worst having no relation whatsoever to the situation 15:11:16 ehird, anyway I have a linux computer that boots in 16 seconds from you press the button, a Pentium 3 with 512 MB RAM 15:11:20 huh, I lost like 10 options from system settings 15:11:24 how did that happen 15:11:26 what do you mean lost? 15:11:31 they're not there in the oerview 15:11:33 I may be imagining things 15:11:43 ais523: what font dpi are you using? 15:11:45 also, screenshot? 15:11:50 of what? 15:11:53 the text rendering 15:12:00 ehird, I have seen that on mac actually.. iirc bluetooth was suddenly gone from mouse settings... 15:12:02 which set of rendering? 15:12:05 I'm back on Gnome atm, btw 15:12:10 oh. 15:12:11 ehird, reboot fixed it 15:12:15 gnome renders fonts differently. 15:12:23 but I've set my default font to Sans 10 15:12:28 ehird, gnome and kde use separate setting panels yes 15:12:32 -_- 15:12:33 err 15:12:34 and most of the apps here are using that 15:12:35 that is not what I said 15:12:36 wow 15:12:38 that was highly irrelevant 15:12:42 oh 15:12:42 ? 15:12:51 AnMaster: it's me who's using Gnome 15:12:52 then I misunderstood you 15:12:54 ah 15:13:07 so unless ehird's remote-desktoped into my computer, then he wouldn't care what's in my settings panel, probably 15:13:15 and wouldn't be able to see it in any case without a screenshot 15:13:17 if you see some ambiguity in what I'm saying and nobody else seems to, you porbably read it wrong 15:13:21 and certainly wouldn't think it was his 15:13:22 *probably 15:13:32 ais523: i'm actually behind you. 15:13:46 no you aren't 15:13:55 I'm also invisible 15:14:02 there's no sane way you could have got through the Door 15:14:08 I am not sane 15:14:13 -!- Dewio has joined. 15:18:38 ehird, did you manage to get the fonts to look good? 15:18:42 AnMaster: Not yet. 15:18:45 mhm 15:18:50 ais523: I was going to complain about something else. Let me think what it was... 15:19:02 (BTW, a screenshot of the font rendering would be appreciated, I'm thinking I've missed some combination of settings) 15:19:09 well, fonts are a legitimate complaint for someone who cares as much about fonts as you do 15:19:13 btw, for me wikipedia main page doesn't look bad in konq (KDE 3.5.9) 15:19:15 and I'm not sure what to screenshot 15:19:23 AnMaster: does it mess up the kerning? 15:19:34 ais523: an application? system prefs? 15:19:42 ais523, not really, it uses Bitstream Verra Sans though 15:19:50 ehird: in Gnome the system prefs are just choosing font and size 15:19:57 it's gnome, would you expect it to have settings? 15:20:01 er, there's an antialiasing setting too 15:20:06 ais523: I meant KDE system preferences, anyway 15:20:07 oh, yes 15:20:15 as for KDE settings, I'd have to boot into KDE and I mustn't here 15:20:27 err, you just have to run the settings app 15:20:29 no? 15:20:32 there's a strange bug with volume which means it blares out the logon sound at full volume even when the speakers are set to low volume or muting 15:20:47 ais523, huh, I never seen that 15:20:51 why would you have to boot into KDE? 15:20:55 ah, yes 15:21:05 well, the KDE system settings window messes up fonts for me 15:21:06 ais523, idea: turn off the login sound in KDE settings 15:21:09 should be possible 15:21:17 ehird: btw, if you're interested, the SVN version of Konversation uses Qt4 (you mentioned something about it a few minutes ago) 15:21:19 at least it is on KDE 3.x 15:21:26 BeholdMyGlory: is it semi -stable? 15:21:29 "system notifications" I think 15:21:55 ais523: apeparance->fonts, by the way, 15:22:02 yes, found it 15:22:06 mm 15:22:12 ehird: yup, I'm using it right now, haven't found any problem except for a minor graphical bug that you probably wont even encounter 15:22:38 ehird, btw xchat is way better than xchat aqua I heard 15:22:38 BeholdMyGlory: have you reported it? 15:22:50 AnMaster: it is, but it still sucks 15:23:11 ehird, what about conspire then? It is a fork of xchat, I heard it was way better 15:23:29 haven't tried it myself though 15:23:39 aaaaaagh!! Stop trying to get me to use xchat! wtf man! 15:23:51 sorry 15:23:58 ehird, should I try to get you to use ERC instead ;P 15:24:00 ais523: no, I haven't. maybe I should? but then again, the porting is in progress, they probably just haven't gotten there yet 15:24:14 AnMaster: you just authorized your own death, fyi 15:24:21 hah 15:24:30 ais523: generally, bug reports aren't appreciated for pre-pre-pre-alpha code 15:24:33 BeholdMyGlory: I like to report bugs, or at least check if it's already known 15:24:36 ehird: ah, ok 15:24:38 are you sure? 15:24:39 yes 15:24:45 I've seen several projects explicitly state that 15:24:53 since they almost certainly know about the issue already 15:25:01 well, they should put it in the tracker then 15:25:02 and are busy with other things 15:25:20 certainly when I'm programming I appreciate bug reports even in pre-alphas 15:25:41 ehird, that actually varies. for example, yesterday a valgrind developer wanted me to try svn version instead of last release and also report any bugs I found in the experimental ptrcheck tool in it. 15:26:02 while it did fix one of the bugs I had in the release I found (and reported) several other ones :) 15:26:04 ais523: uploading a screenshot of awful text rendering on wikipedia with subpixel+full hinting 15:26:13 the window decoration text looks nice though 15:26:15 ehird: I've seen it too 15:26:18 filebin hates arora 15:26:23 ais523: you said firefox gets it fine 15:26:33 I'm not using konqueror 15:26:56 ehird, did you build freetype with BCI yet? 15:27:06 -!- Dewi has quit (Network is unreachable). 15:27:08 I'm not going to build my own freetype 15:27:22 well, it is the thing that will help 15:27:31 your screenshot with it was awful. 15:27:39 binary distros don't enable the BCI because Apple has a patent on it in US 15:27:44 so you've said 15:27:45 ehird, that is because my fonts sucks 15:27:54 I only have dejavu too 15:28:17 ehird, you could copy some from OS X and change the settings to use them 15:28:36 I'm trying to gague how well linux is doing, not how well linux is doing if I patch it to make it os x :p 15:28:38 can Linux use OS X fonts? 15:28:43 ais523: if you convert them. 15:28:48 ais523, you need to convert them first 15:28:51 they look ugly though 15:29:02 ehird, not if you use the BCI :P 15:29:18 ooh, I htink I struck gold with some settings 15:29:19 interesting, it seems they just ported D to the Mac 15:29:24 it is just that dejavu and such are optimised for non-BCI 15:29:26 ehird: which settings are those? 15:29:26 use subpixel rendering = RGB 15:29:28 hinting style = slight 15:29:38 ugh subpixel 15:29:46 AnMaster: why don't you like subpixel? 15:29:47 thank you AnMaster, I didn't ask for your opinion 15:29:52 ais523: D already works on os x, with gdc, but gdc is unmaintained and crap 15:29:53 ais523, coloured edges of fonts 15:29:55 dmd now works on it, too 15:29:59 AnMaster: err, you're meant to use a tft. 15:30:01 which specifically hides those. 15:30:10 that's the whole point of subpixel rendering 15:30:11 well, subpixel only makes sense on TFTs 15:30:13 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 15:30:21 ais523, I have a TFT. 15:30:24 as for the subpixel choices, only one of them is ever correct 15:30:26 you have a crap tft. 15:30:31 so if you pick the wrong one, you'll see coloured edges 15:30:32 or configured subpixel rendering badly. 15:31:26 logout login time ---> 15:32:34 I think there's one idiot developing KDE that ruins the whole thing 15:32:38 it prompts you if you want to move something to the trash. 15:32:41 I am not kidding. 15:33:05 ais523, I tried all the subpixel style options 15:33:11 all give coloured edges 15:33:21 what screen res are you using? 15:33:38 either your tft screen is crap, or you're using a crap subpixel implementation, or you had the wrong hinting settings or whatever 15:33:39 1400x1050, as for DPI I think it is 98 DPI or such 15:33:42 don't remember exactly 15:33:46 ehird: so does Windows, about that move-to-trash prompt 15:33:51 with good subpixel rendering it is impossible to see the colouring without zooming in 15:34:02 ais523: it's stupid! the whole point of a trash is to be able to undo deletes! 15:34:03 I think there's at least one KDEer who goes around copying Windows' bad ideas as well as their good ones 15:34:24 now what works well is: antialias, full hinting, no subpixel, exclude 0-7 pt 15:34:32 and with 1400x1050, as long as your screen res matches the screen's actual res, no way a normal human should be able to see the color fringes if you use the right pixel order 15:34:44 ais523: or, the implementation is crap 15:34:48 ais523, it is 20" btw 15:34:49 or, it's placebo like so many things 15:34:51 iirc 15:35:05 he tried it thinking he wouldn't like it, lo and behold... 15:35:31 * ehird installs ms core fonts 15:35:52 I'm actually thinking about uninstalling those, because openoffice keeps trying to use them by default 15:35:54 and I don't like them 15:36:10 I don't like them but dejavu sans is very ugly unless planned for 15:36:14 the web is killing my eyes 15:36:24 ais523: also, it's Qt that messes up kerning, I think 15:36:28 well, there are lots of other fonts in the list 15:36:30 as other browsers are doing it too 15:36:45 and Qt messing up kerning is consistent with my obligations, although I haven't seen enough to prove it 15:36:48 *observations 15:38:04 wow that was a crazy typo.. 15:38:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:38:36 ehird, what about kerning in firefox? 15:38:38 AnMaster: too much nomic 15:38:48 I don't really feel like installing firefox, but it'd probaly be fine. 15:38:57 firefox is gtk-based on Linux 15:39:11 ais523, yes and? 15:39:22 I use Gimp in KDE. Gimp is GTK based 15:39:31 joy, more irrelevance... 15:39:45 I found the comment that firefox is GTK based quite irrelevant too 15:39:54 AnMaster: well, the theory is that it's Qt that's messing up kerning 15:39:55 er, it really wasn't 15:40:07 and by implication, gtk apps won't 15:40:09 because they don't use qt 15:40:15 ais523, yes exactly, that is why I suggest you try something else. Also kerning isn't messed up in konq here 15:40:17 just like athena widget apps or SDL apps won't 15:40:19 maybe QT 3 is better? 15:40:23 graaaaaaaaah 15:40:30 AnMaster always has to inject "USE THIS OTHER APPLICATION" 15:40:34 "USE THIS VERSION THAT I PREFER" 15:40:42 or I use a different font, or I happen to use a freetype with BCI 15:40:45 AnMaster: well the whole point of this exercise was to evaluate how ready KDE 4.2 was for people like ehird to use as a main OS 15:40:51 ais523, ah I see 15:40:55 which is the point you're probably missing 15:41:04 ais523, indeed that changes the whole thing 15:41:09 I tried it for a while and went back to Gnome 15:41:18 I think it's usable for me as a main OS, but Gnome is more usable 15:41:21 * ehird carefully opens tiny hole in body to let out craziness to avoid explosion 15:41:38 ais523: don't make me download an ubuntu cd... :P 15:41:56 ehird: meh, it hasn't changed much recently 15:42:05 it's mostly been bugfixing and stealing good ideas from Mac OS X 15:42:20 ais523, I can't stand gnome, but I can't stand kde 4.x either, and yes I tried both, though not 4.2, but from what I seen in screenshots and release notes it is still way behind kde 3 15:42:23 did you know that Windows 7 has what's effectively the Dock, now, except probably implemented worse and with a different name? 15:42:26 yep 15:42:30 one day they'll all just license out os x from apple :P 15:43:35 point is that the BCI thing is quite similar to the way some binary distros (used to?) disable mp3 support in the included mediaplayer, because of patents 15:43:45 not sure if that is still the case 15:44:09 AnMaster: well in Ubuntu you have to download it separately IIRC 15:44:11 Hmm, I should take advantage of my freedom while I have it. Maybe I'll try some window manager. 15:44:17 ais523, heh 15:44:35 ehird, xmonad? xnomad? 15:44:47 xnomad is a ninja. it kills windows you don't need. 15:44:48 I was about to mention xmonad too 15:44:55 it's called the bsc. bullshit collector. 15:44:56 given that ehird made me install it 15:45:02 ais523: I've tried xmonad, guess I'll try it again 15:45:03 ehird, hehe 15:45:12 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=634447 15:45:13 AnMaster: HA! 15:45:17 BCI IS enabled in ubuntu. 15:45:17 it doesn't really suit the way I use windows, though 15:45:20 Since at least dec 2007. 15:45:44 ehird, last I heard it wasn't, but ok... So maybe try disabling it? 15:45:48 from another thread, since at least october 2006 15:45:50 AnMaster: how? 15:45:59 ehird, compile time option for freetype 15:46:13 AnMaster: this is a binary distro, messing with compile time options isn't what people normally do on those 15:46:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:46:14 lol 15:46:24 although Ubuntu handles source packages fine, people rarely use them 15:46:30 ais523, iirc even debian has this thing called "source packages" yes 15:46:46 XMONAD TYME -> 15:46:53 well, I have to install tons of crap first. 15:46:56 like ghc. 15:46:59 (xmonad depends on ghc.) 15:47:00 AnMaster: what do you mean "even debian" 15:47:11 ais523: he sees debian as a lowest common denominator. 15:47:15 how do you think Debian makes the binary packages in the first place? 15:47:21 ehird, no that is slackware 15:47:22 because, umm, I don't know, it's not source based? 15:47:23 ;P 15:47:36 ais523, yes of course, that was my point 15:47:37 ... 15:47:38 AnMaster: you have some fucked up distro ladder... 15:47:53 I don't think the biggest ubuntu fan would say slackware is the lowest distro 15:47:59 ehird, not a ladder, stairway to gentoo 15:48:12 kind of like the stairway to heaven? I'm happy being at the bottom on both. 15:48:13 please, I'm physically laughing out loud now 15:48:21 ehird, it was a horrible pun yes 15:48:26 ais523: you're way too amusable ;p 15:48:28 *:p 15:48:40 no, just confused 15:48:44 I missed the pun, I think 15:48:49 I don't think it was a pun 15:48:54 well, I still can spot it 15:48:56 I think he s/heaven/gentoo/ and called it a pun 15:48:56 *can't 15:49:09 ehird, well if it wasn't a pun, then what was it 15:49:18 that's what we're asking you? 15:49:21 AnMaster: it wasn't actually anything 15:49:25 I can't figure out what you were doing there at al 15:49:26 apart from a feeble attempt at humour 15:49:26 *all 15:49:39 this is why I'm so amused 15:49:44 ais523, intentionally making no sense 15:49:51 I wish I had that excuse 15:50:06 i'm actually really funny, you can tell because i'm not! 15:50:15 * ais523 laughs at ehird 15:50:25 i'll take that as a good thing 15:50:35 * AnMaster laughs at the act of laughing 15:59:50 yeah ehird is pretty ridiculous 16:00:07 and pizza is pretty good 16:00:48 oklopol: I thought you were a noodle fan/ 16:01:37 i'm not all that picky. 16:01:44 i like all that tastes incredibly good. 16:03:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:08:40 Subject: SPAM: ATM Machine ownership is unique. Try it. 16:08:51 spam emails just get stranger and stranger... 16:15:40 -!- dhjkd has joined. 16:15:51 1) other wms can't seem to read my keypresses 16:15:57 2) konversation crashes at startup 16:16:01 3) my fan is whirring quite a lot 16:16:10 this far <-- --> from jumping ship back to os x. 16:16:40 I don't mind you jumping ship 16:16:50 also, Dolphin is flashing randomly when I open it 16:17:07 and my fan seems to be whirring more and more 16:17:09 I think it's probably best for everyone to choose for themselves what OS is best for them, and it differs for different people 16:17:23 right now I'm concerned at wtf this is doing to my fan. 16:19:02 ais523: do you think plan9 will work with a usb keyboard / mouse yet? 16:19:08 who knows? 16:19:14 god. 16:19:19 and me 16:19:21 failing everything, connect up a serial cable and toggle the keypresses in yourself 16:19:26 Mony: what is the answer 16:19:30 42 16:19:37 ais523: good luck finding a serial cable port on this mac 16:19:59 hmm... this laptop probably doesn't have one either 16:20:08 pity, serial's by far the best simple connection for implementing by hand 16:20:28 ais523: there's not even a ps/2 port in here 16:20:29 if you're messing around with electronics, designing something serial-controlled's easier than the alternatives 16:20:44 my laptop has hardly any ports, though 16:20:56 ps/2, VGA, USB, modem, and Ethernet 16:20:59 hmm ... can grub boot from a cd without it being in the menu? 16:21:04 oh, and 1294 16:21:15 dhjkd: probably, it has loads of options 16:21:19 I don't like messing with them though 16:21:23 beh 16:26:56 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:29:57 O HAI GUYS 16:30:02 HI! 16:30:11 I am downloadering plan 9 16:36:17 the main problem with plan 9 is that everyone who uses it is a jerk. 16:36:51 dhjkd: you're just going to have to speed up your implementation of Plan10 16:36:57 Verily. 16:37:09 Hopefully it'll be so amazing that uriel dies of shock. 16:37:54 who's uriel? 16:38:18 The most obnoxious plan 9 user ever. 16:38:34 continually rants about how other systems are imorral and "disgusting" 16:38:51 maintains a site where he whines about everything from every market that isn't free to the abhorrent act of having kids 16:39:18 impossible to ignore to boot 16:39:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:39:42 wait, why can't you ignore him? 16:40:19 he's too ridiculously loud. 16:40:46 err... 16:40:54 in what forum is he talking to you? 16:41:17 he's all over the place. reddit, irc, ... 16:41:38 you can't ignore him on irc: he's so loud that all conversation ends revolving around him 16:41:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:41:45 and reddit has no killfiles. 16:42:40 k3b is making my disk drive perform a worrying whirr. 16:44:02 plan9 time, maybe -> 16:44:59 -!- dhjkd has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 16:52:43 -!- Corun has joined. 17:04:06 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:04:59 -!- Hiato has joined. 17:06:46 gah cold fnigers 17:06:54 i think we can believe in that. 17:07:20 oerjan, IWC 17:07:22 * AnMaster runs 17:08:38 "Resultater 1 - 10 av ca. 92 900 000 for fniger." 17:10:19 For fniger? Where's MY 92 900 000?! 17:10:28 "Resultater 1 - 10 av ca. 108 000 000 for finger." 17:10:32 wtf? 17:11:04 apparently people really _do_ spell that bad :D 17:11:38 Is a resultater something that resultates? 17:12:57 not really. 17:12:58 no that would clearly be "resultator" 17:13:07 resultat = en:result 17:13:30 (noun) 17:13:45 en:result (v) = no:resultere 17:14:05 Result isn't a verb :P 17:14:11 yes it is 17:14:25 Oh, yes it is ;P 17:14:28 That results in failure 17:14:38 oh you *were* serious 17:14:42 My attempt to classify the word "result" resulted in an improper classification. 17:14:43 good, was worried there for a sec 17:14:59 me too 17:15:22 do norwegian verbs really end in "ere", like Latin verbs often do? 17:15:31 Sorry, my mouth was watering because the healthy human baby truck was driving by. 17:15:35 So I wasn't thinking straight. 17:15:39 no, only those stolen from latin. 17:16:01 also, it's -ere even if latin has -[aei]re 17:16:06 GregorR: don't worry we all think homosexually every now and then. 17:16:23 oklopol: A) That would be pedastry, B) I'm thinking more about cannibalism. 17:16:25 especially when there's babies involved 17:16:28 similar to german 17:16:55 GregorR: why would it be pedastry? 17:17:14 * oerjan confesses that he considered making yesterday's quit message "I'll have a large one with extra fries" 17:17:24 Oh, I didn't put together what you were responding to X-P 17:17:27 what was the context? 17:17:28 * GregorR stabblecopter :P 17:17:33 GregorR: are you high or something? 17:17:39 Just tired :P 17:17:42 -!- mib_zv88py has joined. 17:17:51 hi person who is probably ehird 17:17:55 fuck. computers. 17:18:01 mib_zv88py: Hawt. 17:18:02 Plan8? 17:18:07 *9? 17:18:20 *10? 17:18:26 GregorR: i suggest sleeping, your status in my eyes is changing rapidly! 17:18:36 i can't get plan9 to recognize my keyboard, even if I use a usb one and boot through grub, which SHOULD be legacy-bios-emulating thus exposing it as a ps2 17:18:39 but ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no 17:18:49 I choose to go eat instead :P 17:19:03 from GregorR the powernerd to GregorR the village idiot 17:19:49 So, a friend of mine and I created card chess. 17:19:53 (Subject change!) 17:19:54 :D 17:19:58 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird_. 17:20:00 like chesskers? 17:20:00 GregorR: erm, that's not really reassuring... 17:20:00 you and your crazy games 17:20:01 ghjkghjkhgkhgkhjkhjkhjkhjkghjhjkjhghjkhjkhjkhjkjhkghjghkhjkghjkhjkhggkhjkghjkhhkhkhgkhkhjkghjkky6y6y6y66666y6y6y6y6yy66yy575766 www5546 w456w546w546w546w546546 56 56 56 56 5 5 55 5 17:20:09 http://codu.org/wiki/?title=Card+Chess 17:20:11 ehird_: I don't understand 17:20:19 i used to do that all the time with my friends until i became totally isolated from them when uni started. 17:20:21 expressing my hate for computers. 17:20:56 (invent games, that is) 17:21:00 oklopol: oh dear :( 17:21:27 i wanna make a game solvable by computers only via ai or prime factoring 17:21:53 ehird_: you use computers a lot for someone who hates them as much as you do 17:22:01 I have to admit to actually liking computers 17:22:21 ais523: they have potential 17:22:28 but they're still rubbish. 17:22:57 god i hate plan9 users 17:22:59 On Thu Apr 17 17:19:06 EDT 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 17:23:00 > rEFIT fails me. Back to waiting. 17:23:02 you know, you could get a pc. 17:23:03 - erik 17:23:05 from google 17:23:06 yeah they should buy a pc just to try out plan9 17:23:09 jeez 17:25:00 actually plan9 _is_ a plot by evil aliens to take over the earth. fortunately they underestimated the stupidity of earthling computer users. 17:25:04 ais523: do you have a pc that can run plan9? I'm going to come and steal it 17:25:18 ehird_: probably, and good luck 17:25:21 why not just try in a VM/ 17:26:26 ais523: it's not he same. 17:26:29 it's slower 17:26:33 etc 17:26:34 half-speed 17:26:39 worse 17:26:46 and this is plan9 we're talking about, and modern hardware we're talking about 17:27:09 -!- mib_zv88py has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 17:27:23 http://www.modmyi.com/forums/chit-chat/19007-ron-paul-plan9-contest-real.html 17:27:27 Ron Paul pervades everything 17:27:32 ais523: I've tried it before. 17:28:02 oerjan: don't worry, just almost totally. 17:28:49 oklopol: whew 17:29:01 i have thi simac and an old Power Macintosh that runs os 8/9, but no pc. I am so stupid. :P 17:31:13 actually i have even made an acquaintance at uni, this dude started talking to me who was on half the courses i was on (which was pretty much all courses he was on naturally). 17:31:22 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 17:34:16 :-< 17:38:33 so. 17:39:31 so hi oklopol. 17:39:47 hye 17:40:09 hay 17:41:08 oklopol: your OS willen be written in oklotalk right? i seem to remember you saying oklotalk was only oklotalk if it had the oklotalk os 17:42:26 it's pretty much built on oklotalk, although the systems version is slightly safer :) 17:42:56 oklopol: wait, oklotalk is _safer_ at the os level? 17:42:59 lol wat :D 17:43:02 i mean 17:43:44 safer than the version of oklotalk that's just oklotalk. the actual programming language oklotalk has a few "features" that don't really suit oses that well. 17:43:54 o 17:43:58 07.11.07:14:10:11 would be cool to get aroused by CA 17:44:03 :D 17:44:05 well it would! 17:44:16 completely out of context by the way 17:44:27 you don't need context for that 17:44:58 03:34:15 hm I just got a great idea for how to optimise brainfuck a bit better 17:45:00 03:34:29 probably someone already thought of it 17:45:01 03:35:22 my idea is, you can replace ++ and -- with set constant sometimes, for example if that cell have had a [-] on it just before and there have been no loops with unbalanced <> in it 17:45:06 I love anmaster's obvious "great ideas" 17:45:48 ehird_: you misread that idea, probably 17:45:53 it's more than the usual runlength stuff 17:45:55 but not by that much 17:45:56 I know 17:46:07 it's very obvious and most compilers worth their salt ever do it 17:46:42 04:52:27 this download is going slow 17:46:44 04:52:28 * tusho pokes it 17:46:45 04:53:15 yay 17:46:46 most compilers are probably peppered with such tricks 17:46:47 04:53:19 thanks for finishing download 17:46:48 04:53:19 <3 17:46:50 04:53:32 you are pretty awesome, finishing like that 17:46:51 04:57:04 hooray 17:46:53 a momentary channeling of oklopol. 17:47:11 :-p 17:47:24 * oklopol pats download 17:48:09 07.11.08:15:34:22 optimizations are rather cool, I mean unless they're arousing 17:48:13 you're weird oklopol. 17:48:35 it's the oklons in his brain that do it. 17:48:42 oklopol: why did you say that 17:48:45 i mean it doesn't make any sense. 17:50:31 i guess i wasn't trying to make sense 17:50:39 -!- FireFly has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:50:44 oklopol: you didn't actually say that i fabricated that quote. 17:50:58 because I am a scoundrel. 17:51:16 i didn't say that? 17:51:25 nope. 17:51:29 oh. 17:51:32 well i remember it. 17:51:34 :D 17:51:36 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 17:51:41 ah, I can tell it wasn't oklopol looking very carefully 17:51:45 * oklopol pats his mind 17:51:49 because oklopol writes "i" in lowercase 17:51:51 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:51:55 yeah 17:51:56 ais523: i was wondering about that 17:52:00 but he could have typo'ed. 17:52:46 * oerjan swats FireFly -----### 17:52:52 ais523: did i use "i" in 08 too? i can't say i remember. also i don't know which is year and which is day in the timestamps. 17:53:00 that was 2007 17:53:04 okay right 17:53:05 yy.mm.dd 17:53:07 then i remember even less. 17:53:08 oerjan: stop that! 17:53:18 * ehird_ swats oerjan -----### 17:53:21 * FireFly swats oerjan 17:53:22 * oerjan swats ais523 -----### 17:53:24 ---### 17:53:25 yeah oerjan you can clearly see he isn't going to die. 17:53:31 swat orgy 17:53:31 you need to get a better weapon 17:54:08 ehird_: "ehird_: ais523: i was wondering about that" <<< what this like "i in fact did *not* make that up", i mean... i remember it :D 17:54:14 * FireFly the swat-protected firefly 17:54:18 oklopol: ?? 17:54:21 * ais523 revenges with a SWAT team 17:54:22 Brb 17:54:27 so guys, remember when I made up a language where you can put labels and gotos _anywhere_ 17:54:31 yeah 17:54:40 ehird_: yes, and it ended up that you were just reinventing INTERCAL? 17:54:43 i'm like, gonna try that again 17:54:50 then again, i remember everything, even the made up stuff. 17:57:12 yeah like the time you rode a unicorn 17:57:35 yeah that was a lot of fun 17:57:47 I rode a dragon once 17:57:50 but it was only in NetHack 17:57:53 still loads of fun thoug 17:57:55 *though 17:58:11 what's the command for riding a dragon in nethack? 17:58:16 #ride 17:58:21 but you have to tame it and put a saddle on it first 18:00:01 foo() { 18:00:02 r = 0; 18:00:04 if (r == 3) { 18:00:06 bar: print("hi!"); 18:00:07 } 18:00:09 print(r); 18:00:10 } 18:00:11 goto bar; 18:00:13 does this print: 18:00:14 hi! 18:00:16 3 18:00:18 ? 18:00:45 i would've said both 18:00:46 ... 18:00:47 err 18:00:51 yeah um 18:00:52 that's probably what you meant. 18:00:53 that's what i meant 18:00:54 :P 18:01:05 it is? oh i see. 18:01:05 oklopol: so r magiaclly becomes 3 when you goto into the if? 18:01:13 hah :D 18:01:30 yeah it satisfies the if's condition somehow 18:01:58 cool. you can have declarative "satisfy this" expressions. 18:01:58 eek 18:02:16 something all languages should have btw 18:02:26 oh no, this is getting bad... 18:02:27 its less goto-y though. 18:02:30 that's uncomputable 18:02:41 indeed 18:02:46 who cares 18:02:50 -!- Judofyr has joined. 18:02:54 while(i is not a solution to the Reimann hypothesis) {i++}; bar: print 5; 18:03:09 presumably you can't goto bar unless it's possible to reach it via ordinary program flow 18:03:14 oh, definitely not 18:03:20 you can goto bar 18:03:26 err... ok? 18:03:29 yes 18:03:31 just infloop if you don't know the answer. all programs can refuse to halt, it's not like anyone's bitching about implementing tc languages anyway. 18:03:31 just not if it's inside a loop? 18:03:31 it was just ifs 18:03:33 inside them 18:03:35 i dunno 18:03:38 I kind of like not fixing them 18:04:32 *and it's 18:04:42 not sure that's better 18:04:43 sadiofj 18:04:56 grreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen 18:04:59 ... so. 18:05:40 aberdeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen 18:05:41 06:55:26 There's only like 2 people in finland right? 18:05:42 06:55:29 Which one's your house? 18:05:44 06:55:37 yes, and 4 of them are on this channel 18:05:45 omg the start of the meme :D 18:05:47 err 18:05:49 truth statements 18:05:50 I mean 18:06:12 meme's are true. that's why they are so scary. 18:06:33 the are true belonging to meme? 18:06:35 oerjan: wut 18:07:02 i saw potential. i fulfilled it. 18:07:15 aka i refused to fix my spelling. 18:07:25 so ehird_ 18:07:31 did you decide to read the logs? 18:08:05 today has been an interesting part of the great debate: are the logs invented or discovered? 18:08:22 :D 18:08:42 seriously make a comic. 18:08:43 oklopol: i always do 18:09:27 07:16:13 optbot: oh :p. i think i've gotten ( lambdafnord body) to ( call/ cc...) ( generate-temporaries ( syntax( var) 18:09:36 i mean i would read it. 18:09:39 getting lambda fnord body to call/cc is painful, you need to generate temporaries syntax var 18:09:48 except if is sucked, then i'd be like why did i make him draw this ridiculous crap and tell you you suck. 18:09:52 but i mean otherwise 18:09:57 lambdafnord for dysfunctional programming 18:10:38 hm wait fungot should not merge fnords with neighboring words, should it 18:10:56 someone said lambdafnord 18:10:57 obviously 18:11:09 but they must have said it twice 18:11:22 or otherwise fungot would have replaced it by fnord 18:11:27 lambdafnord lambdafnord 18:11:49 wait no 18:11:51 hm would that cause fungot to loop? 18:11:53 oerjan: it was my terminal 18:11:58 eliminated the space 18:12:01 between lambda and fnord 18:12:03 aha 18:12:14 There's only like two meems in #esoteric right? 18:12:17 it's probably got a fnord defect 18:12:26 Corun: way more 18:12:27 more like 5 18:12:30 Corun: yes, me'em 18:12:38 Ore-some 18:12:46 there's the paradoxinns 18:12:52 (paradoxical finns) 18:12:54 okay i find oerjan way too funny today. 18:12:56 there's psox 18:13:08 there's "fungot wants to take over the world" 18:13:10 ais523: recall any others? 18:13:25 * oerjan swats ehird_ -----### 18:13:43 ehird_: well, oerjan does 18:13:44 well there were a few more legimate memes on the topic 18:13:51 oh yes! 18:13:53 swatting 18:13:55 the letter game 18:13:58 o 18:14:06 oko 18:14:08 okokoko 18:14:10 "#esoteric is a gay sex channel and nothing else" 18:14:13 okokokokokokoko 18:14:16 any others? 18:14:17 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 18:14:40 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 18:14:43 hmm. 18:14:45 here goes... 18:14:54 that's not strictly an #esoteric meme, since it's shared with #vjn iirc 18:14:55 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 18:15:12 live feed from #vjn 18:15:12 20:11… +volimo: oooooooooooooo 18:15:15 20:11… +volimo: oooooooooo 18:15:18 20:11… +volimo: ooooooooooooooo 18:15:21 20:11… +volimo: ooooooo 18:15:23 omg vjn I wanna go bak there 18:15:24 20:11… +volimo: oooooooooooooooooo 18:15:27 i'm going back to vjn okay 18:15:27 20:11… +volimo: ooooo 18:15:30 okay. 18:15:30 20:11… +volimo: oooooo 18:15:33 20:11… +volimo: ooo 18:15:34 they are 4 minutes behind us? 18:15:36 wait that was not very live 18:15:45 yeah it's a time microzone thing. 18:16:02 awesome 18:17:44 -> 18:17:57 bye. 18:18:01 bye 18:18:38 erm i mean afk, for now 18:19:28 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:19:34 -!- Judofyr has joined. 18:26:41 -!- Slereah has joined. 18:34:13 -!- jix has joined. 18:42:47 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:47:42 . 18:47:47 am broken interweb? 18:53:20 am not 18:56:15 10:41:30 but... it should return bottom then or something? 18:56:19 10:41:53 "to return bottom" means "to die horribly" 18:56:21 10:41:57 :P 18:56:22 10:42:00 okay 18:56:29 -!- oerjan has quit ("_now_ ->"). 18:56:55 what a noob 18:57:43 10:57:14 source ^stdcons.bfm;source ^outs.bfm;string foo! "That's just wrong.\n";outs foo!end 18:57:45 10:57:39 oerjan: Stop with the Lambda. 18:57:51 pikhq is so hostile whenever functional programming is brought up. 18:58:38 interesting... 18:59:43 oklopol> ackermann's growth is mean, it grows so fast i can't see the nice big numbers, because they're so big the program crashes 19:00:17 well that is a problem with them. 19:02:57 11:51:46 hm, i would advise you against that attitude here. one of our resident 14-year olds seems frightfully smart. 19:02:59 who was it 19:03:04 this was in 2007 19:03:07 ihope? 19:03:18 11:52:18 yeah, i know :\ 19:03:20 11:52:52 that's exactly where i got that exact age :) 19:04:23 ihop 19:04:24 e 19:04:51 12:52:22 maintaining old projects mostly, i mostly design my new language, oklotalk, i'm pretty obsessed about it 19:04:53 12:52:47 but i'll soon be failing at implementing it :) 19:04:54 was that my first convo? 19:04:54 "soon" 19:04:56 = "next year" 19:05:00 oklopol: wut, no 19:05:04 er maybe 19:05:10 i mean that resident 14... thing 19:05:18 how is oklotalk coming along, anyway? 19:05:25 also, okokokokokoko 19:05:26 ais523: it died to J, then got revived 19:05:34 because oklopol discovered jdidn't do arbitrary precision numerics 19:05:35 it's died to a lot of things 19:05:37 and almost died. 19:05:44 and so put oklotalk back on the todo list 19:05:44 and primarily it's died because university. 19:06:17 although what ehird_ said is the official reason ofc 19:06:24 or official story dunno 19:06:28 ehird_: why the underscore? 19:06:57 bouncer 19:07:00 err wait 19:07:02 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird. 19:07:05 dunno lol. 19:08:00 so, 40-bit pointers 19:08:01 discuss 19:08:15 39 is better 19:08:20 no 40 19:08:25 NO 19:08:28 40 19:08:36 oh alright. 19:09:06 ais523: anyway oklotalk has not seen any actual development after last september. 19:09:20 2008 19:09:21 ? 19:09:29 but that's irrelevant in that no one has seen the stuff developed sofar anyway.. 19:10:19 16:46:04 what is the point of regex? 19:10:20 16:46:33 ... 19:10:21 16:46:39 to... match patterns. 19:10:23 16:47:06 ok... 19:11:04 16:55:49 AND i dl'd cube 2 in french, but didn't want to do the work again, so i watched it 3 times hoping i'd just learn french 19:11:17 xD 19:11:18 that sounds very oklopol 19:11:52 oklopol: so did you learn french by that? :P 19:12:37 i learned je m'appelle claude! 19:12:50 (of course i didn't learn to type it) 19:13:22 it starts with a chick telling her name, although i'm not actually sure claude is a girl's name, that may actually be from friends. 19:13:29 but je m'appelle was there anyway 19:13:59 anyway i didn't actually miss much, 2 has least story 19:14:25 so, three words from one movie, watch 30000 more french movies and you'll know all the words, I guess 19:14:36 :) 19:17:32 anyone know a file to play raw audio files on lunix 19:17:34 tool 19:19:38 play plays just about anything 19:19:43 as long as you know the format 19:22:20 ehird@fhtagn:~/code/musak$ play -r 22 -t raw -8 -u musak.raw 19:22:21 fails 19:22:23 :, 19:22:24 :< 19:23:07 10:04:38 i just realized Gamegirl has the word "girl" in it 19:23:09 10:04:41 we're smart bots. 19:23:10 10:04:45 * oklopol is a bot that penetrates 19:23:12 10:04:49 ... 19:23:13 10:04:56 ... 19:23:14 10:05:05 like... metphorically 19:23:16 10:05:10 *metaphorically 19:23:29 10:05:13 ...I see. 19:23:31 10:05:32 * lament slowly backs away from oklopol 19:23:32 10:05:57 i'm < 1000 km long, don't worry 8| 19:23:34 10:06:20 length can be measured in several ways 19:23:35 10:06:27 i don't know which one you chose... 19:23:37 10:06:27 --- part: Gamegirl left #esoteric 19:24:52 :D 19:25:37 well i am! 19:26:01 10:43:52 this one day i had this weird urge to havea callstack, but i said to myself "don't you have another callstack, you just had one last week" and i was like "fuck you" 19:26:03 10:44:02 you know 19:27:07 oklopol: your weirdness is greatly amusing 19:27:37 ...did that one have a context? 19:28:00 yeah, gamegirl came in 19:28:03 and lament claimed we're all dead bots 19:28:11 ah 19:28:19 so ehird 19:28:26 you found an uncorrected typo 19:28:34 wait, where 19:28:35 this is a big day for me. 19:28:39 *have a 19:28:42 nop 19:28:45 that was my terminal 19:28:47 fucking up again 19:28:48 :D 19:28:50 ah 19:28:53 good :) 19:28:55 * oklopol is perfect 19:28:55 I TRICKED YOU INTO CORRECTING 19:28:57 BWAHAHAHAHA 19:29:16 no you didn't, i was actually fooling *you* here. 19:29:24 :( 19:29:30 i don't believe you 19:29:42 you think i wouldn't remember an uncorrected typo 19:30:28 i have two questions about bf, is the datainitialized to 0? how do you print stuff? kernel calls? 19:30:31 kernel calls XD 19:30:44 a) yes, and b) PSOX 19:30:45 * ais523 runs 19:30:50 AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEee 19:31:05 kernel calls? 19:31:13 11:54:48 ! will call asm INT n, where n is the value of the current cell. 19:31:16 oklopol the trickster. 19:31:31 that wouldn't be particularly useful unless you had control over the registers 19:31:36 ! is an addition command? I have only seen the 8 commands 19:31:39 OH HE FOUND YOU OUT 19:31:49 11:57:56 sorry, i just mislead people asking advice:< 19:31:50 :DD 19:31:56 anyway, it's easy to print kernel calls in BF 19:32:01 actually doing kernel calls might be difficult 19:32:09 but you can print them out to the screen easily enough 19:32:27 12:03:21 CakeProphet: Sure it can (although the *implementation* of such things is lacking). 19:32:30 12:03:38 One merely needs to implement PESOIX, or something similar, and voila. 19:32:35 PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX 19:32:44 (5 PSOXs is the correct way to yell PSOX repeatedly) 19:33:49 ^ul (PSOX )::*:**S 19:33:58 fungot? 19:34:00 " sorry, i just mislead people asking advice:<" well this just sounds like plain bad english. of course maybe my intentionally simplified english sounds like that from an outsider's perspective. 19:34:01 where's fungot gone? 19:34:06 fizzie is dead. 19:34:09 I'm sorry to have to tell you. 19:34:27 oklopol: that's correct english 19:34:37 although i guess you can "ask advice" 19:34:40 i just wouldn't use it 19:34:43 yeah 19:35:49 it maybe be the "advice:<" that makes it look clumsy. 19:35:53 ... 19:35:54 *may be 19:35:54 it was 19:35:57 "advice :<" 19:35:59 i know 19:36:09 STOP TELLING ME THINGS I ALREADY KNOW OR DON'T KNOW 19:36:31 are there things you do neither? 19:36:39 nope! 19:36:46 that's a polite way to tell someone to stfu 19:37:11 you mean, an obscure way, so that they don't realized they've been insulted 19:37:54 that's pretty much the definition of polite. 19:38:02 insulting people in ways they don't understand 19:38:17 oklopol: I love tht definition 19:38:21 need food, brb 19:39:03 you can do it for many things, "friends, the people you only insult behind their backs" 19:39:13 hmm, I broke my kde taskbar 19:40:20 hmm. i'm feeling a bit too lucid atm 19:40:51 night all... 19:40:58 night AnMaster 19:41:00 or rather, evening 19:41:03 it's pretty early for night 19:41:23 ais523, going to bed early due to flu (probably, or something equally terrible...) 19:41:27 ok 19:42:47 flus are for losers. 19:43:35 only losers get sick *sniffs and wraps blanket tighter around self* 19:47:44 ais523: in kde, hold down control-windowskey 19:47:47 see stars go around cursor 19:47:49 o_O 19:48:17 ehird: Compiz does that too, but it's not enabled by default 19:48:26 ah, I guess kde is using compiz 19:48:34 also, windows key = "super" in Linux terminology 19:48:47 and AFAIR, kde doesn't use compiz, it has its own implementation of the same things 19:51:19 !!!! 19:51:21 [19:50] ehird: it so happened, that oklopol turned 20 just today. 19:51:25 note: #vjn, probably total lies. 19:51:34 http://home.earthlink.net/~misaak/jackbean.html argh, so many puns 19:51:44 but if not 19:51:48 world ending in soon times. 19:51:52 it is 19:52:00 oklopol: is lies? 19:52:02 ic 19:52:02 oklopol's about the same age as me I think, probably slightly younger 19:52:05 "lies" 19:52:07 ais523: he's 19 19:52:15 it was a joke you didn't get for obvious reasons 19:52:22 when he turns 20, the world will end because there's no way oklopol could be 20, i mean he's so... 19 19:52:23 oklopol: :DD 19:55:25 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 19:55:53 ehird: you mean oklopol will turn 20 in 2012? 19:56:11 exactly 19:56:15 he'll be 19 for _years_. 20:11:54 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:13:43 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 20:45:04 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:05:08 Back on OS X. 21:05:22 http://www.errornerd.com/system-2.php?seed=The-Weird-Smile-Of-The-Dude-To-The-Right-Of-This-Article 21:09:25 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:13:57 -!- chuck has left (?). 21:17:53 -!- ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating..."). 21:18:09 -!- ashdasd has joined. 21:18:22 I keep committing irc faux pas: saying something in the wrong channel. 21:18:30 hi ashdasd 21:18:47 which channel did you say it in this time? 21:19:04 I linked to http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/1/vi in #emacs 21:19:10 hahaha 21:19:38 The resolution is to kill my bouncer so I don't see people insult me :P 21:19:52 also, the response format for ctcp version is NOTICE nickyourerespondingto :^AVERSION put version number here^A 21:20:25 [CTCP] Received CTCP-ehird reply from ashdasd: v13. 21:20:26 almost... 21:21:49 also, pasting that in #emacs was a stroke of genius 21:21:54 how did they react? 21:22:13 i have a hunch he doesn't know 21:22:29 because they kicked him? or because he parted in panic? 21:22:32 yeah I quit it too quickly :-( 21:22:46 "ashdasd: The resolution is to kill my bouncer so I don't see people insult me :P" 21:22:47 I am very shy round foreign channels :P 21:23:01 ashdazed 21:23:17 I should just run a bot on those channels so I can spy on them post-quit 21:23:27 like you do with ##nomic, you mean? 21:23:42 hm? 21:23:50 I don't read ##nomic. 21:23:56 I don't believe you 21:24:04 that's not my problem 21:25:07 * oklopol mutters something about ais523 being such an ehird towards ehird nowadays ;) 21:25:13 heh 21:25:19 need to go eat now 21:25:31 if the dog starts barking, please tell it to shut up, since it's late. 21:25:51 what, the dog or just it in general is late? 21:26:03 i mean 21:26:05 ppl sleep 21:26:14 so a dog barking would upset my neighs 21:27:04 -> 21:33:17 god, christel is annoying. 21:33:24 really? 21:33:47 can't she just get to the point with the bloomin' notices to every-freaking-one instead of inserting rubbish jokes every 3 words 21:37:19 When i googled for something and found entire transcripts of #emacs, i was appalled and stopped joining #emacs. This stinks of Big Brother. when i write on this wiki, i expect it to be publicly available. but i was naive enough to think that an irc session would be too transient to get indexed. my mistake, but it wonb 21:37:23 ^fail. 21:37:45 with all the people who could be logging, one probably will be 21:39:09 I should set up a sekrit channel logging bot and have it go in all channels it finds. 21:39:41 ashdasd: Freenode will very ban you if you do that 21:39:44 and I'll agree with them 21:39:58 i'll claim to have accidentally let the log directory open. 21:40:20 they ought not to believe you 21:40:24 given your track record, at least 21:40:32 they won't know it's me. tor. 21:41:12 does tor even work on freenode? 21:41:16 yep. 21:41:32 plus, linking the logs to the bot would be near-impossible. it'd pose as human. 21:41:41 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:44:03 you realize people have already done exactly that 21:44:11 who 21:44:34 umm 21:44:38 forgot the name 21:44:46 but there was a huge scandal 21:44:56 that's only because people found out,. 21:45:05 there are so many idlers on IRC. 21:45:16 yes, which is why i'm saying people have already done that 21:45:32 if there was a scandal, the performers are crap. 21:46:13 their site doesn't even come up in search for irc log 21:46:25 so i assume they phailed completely afterwards 21:48:11 -!- ehird has joined. 21:48:21 -!- ashdasd has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:48:46 Butt tacular 21:49:01 ehird: your bouncer's reworking? 21:49:09 It never broke, I killed it to exit #emacs. 21:49:27 I thought Freenode had banned it? 21:49:28 I couldn't just part as I Cmd-Q'd my client immediately. 21:49:37 ais523: ermm, when? 21:49:39 months ago? 21:49:43 well yeah, they did then... 21:49:43 yes 21:49:50 surely you've seen me on it since then? 21:49:52 @eso-std.org? 21:50:05 ... which, by the way, expires today 21:52:40 http://alpha61.com/primenumbershittingbear/ it's back! 21:53:31 ehird: how long do you think it'll be squatted for once it expires? 21:53:42 ais523: I doubt it will be squatted 21:54:04 maybe I'll start up my own ESO some time 21:54:11 who said ESO died? 21:54:11 running under ais523 principles rather than ehird principles 21:54:16 it might actually get something done that way 21:54:21 heh 21:54:25 and ESO has been effectively dead forever, because it's never done anything 21:54:32 other than argue about what sort of markup to use 21:54:36 actually, eso-1 got pretty far. 21:54:56 ais523: http://esoteric.sange.fi/ENSI/ 21:54:57 have a field day 21:55:32 had a number of famous people 21:55:33 Ørjan Johansen, from the Norwegian language 21:55:33 Panu Kalliokoski, from the Finnish language 21:55:33 Gerson Kurz, from the German language 21:55:33 Chris Pressey, from the Canadian language 21:55:38 i started eso because I like bikeshedding 21:55:57 http://esoteric.sange.fi/ENSI/brainfuck-1.0.txt hahaha 21:56:14 http://esoteric.sange.fi/ENSI/brainfuck-1.3.txt Real standard 21:57:47 nah, they're all jokes I think 21:58:03 erm, http://esoteric.sange.fi/ENSI/brainfuck-1.3.txt is pretty serious 21:58:18 not very, but it's a usable setandard 21:58:21 not really 21:58:26 it doesn't even address the EOF problem 21:58:41 it insists on a truly semi-infinite tape 22:07:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:07:09 hi oerj 22:07:11 oerjan 22:07:20 ehi 22:07:36 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:08:06 er, hi 22:08:32 ELECTRONIC HI 22:08:38 hi 22:09:04 by the way, does anyone here know why vertical tabs? 22:09:16 I like vertical tabs 22:09:32 form letters? 22:10:28 i imagine if you were filling out a lot of them on a typewriter, vertical tabs would be nice 22:10:37 that was Wikipedia's idea 22:10:42 a 22:10:53 and also if you print on form letters 22:11:43 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 22:11:58 "his body's shutting down" ... blah, do they really say that? is that actually a meaningful metaphor for some medical condition? 22:12:32 nope. 22:12:53 a body rebooting would be weird 22:13:08 "*** Body going down for reboot NOW" 22:14:09 sleep is just the body's fsck 22:14:26 "I'm sorry, she's going to runlevel 0, there's nothing we can do except bring her down gracefully" 22:17:59 i learned je m'appelle claude! 22:18:12 je m'appelle tres bien aussi 22:18:21 there should be a language with no points at all 22:18:26 function composition, no variables 22:18:28 oerjan: "I am also called very well"? 22:18:32 do not say ski calculus 22:18:36 for I will rip your brain out 22:19:04 ais523: "i call myself", technically 22:19:10 ah, yes 22:19:17 sorry, it's 10pm and I'm not thinking straight 22:19:38 oerjan: so in other words, you think you have a good name? 22:19:54 ais523: you're overanalyzing 22:20:22 it's just a nonsense phrase i remember from somewhere 22:22:34 ehird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP_programming_language ? 22:22:46 is it impossible to add holes to FP? 22:23:16 "⊥ is the undefined value, or bottom" <- lame. 22:24:01 ehird: um every tc functional language has bottom, why not name it? 22:24:15 turing completeness sux :P 22:25:06 http://xkcd.com/545/ 22:25:37 ok, that's ridiculous 22:25:59 if that ever happened, I think it would be a fairly good bet that the article would be protected 22:26:05 to which word count? :-D 22:26:11 who knows? 22:26:15 probably there'd be a wheel war 22:26:20 I'd lobby it for deletion 22:26:23 to see what happens 22:26:26 then it would have an even word count 22:26:28 due to having no words 22:26:38 I think it would be more fun to leave the number of words ambiguous 22:26:38 ais523: does a deleted article exist? no 22:26:41 it can't have a set of words 22:26:41 say by adding in a nbdp 22:26:44 *nbsp 22:26:44 there is no such set 22:26:48 and hyphenated words 22:26:50 and apostrophised words 22:27:01 ais523: therefore, hatman must give the money to ** Exception: undefined 22:27:14 ais523: does wp have templates that can depend on who's watching it? (probably) 22:28:06 oerjan: no, although the feature's been requested every now and then 22:28:12 the problem is caching 22:28:21 you can use CSS to depend on which skin they use 22:28:34 ah. 22:28:39 or do things that change every time the article's refreshed 22:28:46 that's what they did on the US presedential election day 22:28:54 they set up the Main Page to show featured articles about both candidates 22:29:09 but the order depended on when the page had last been purged, and it's purged quite a lot 22:29:20 hahahah 22:29:39 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:32:16 http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/3503/xkcdhybridka3.png 22:33:04 ais523: 22:33:09 I like pie lots 22:33:19 now what! 22:33:19 haha 22:35:08 Heh 22:35:29 i see a lot of pie blinking out of existence 22:35:49 * oerjan scares FireFly with the swatter, but without hitting -----### 22:36:18 * FireFly scares oerjan with jokes about norwegian people, but without telling any. 22:36:25 AYEEEEEEEEH 22:37:14 * FireFly -> for a couple of days 22:37:24 http://www.bbspot.com/News/2007/10/xkcd-comic-reenactment-leads-to-100-deaths.html 22:37:53 http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35035#p1388172 <-- haha 22:38:37 "Once something is on the web, it's there forever," said xkcd fan Marlon Hatcher. "I can't wait to go to the next meetup in San Francisco and kill myself with other fans." 22:38:38 :D 22:39:05 I hope that news story isn't real 22:39:10 if it is, the journalism on it is rubbish 22:39:20 dude, it's bbspot 22:39:22 they're the geek onion 22:39:49 I tend not to find fake newspapers particularly amusing 22:39:59 true or not, it's funny. 22:40:46 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 22:41:11 also, I fully support http://www.everytopicintheuniverseexceptchickens.com/ 22:42:06 what does it typically discuss? 22:42:27 * ais523 wonders if there's a http://www.thebestpageintheuniverseexceptchickens.com 22:42:36 ais523: click it 22:42:38 it's about wikipedia 22:42:52 by the guy who writes dinosaur comics 22:42:56 and wrote Jokes Explained 22:43:16 which link, yours or mine? 22:43:20 mine 22:44:26 hey! 22:44:29 gperf finished! 22:44:32 hi 22:44:33 wow 22:44:53 only took 6.5 days of cpu time 22:45:05 make green ness 22:45:17 "On August 17, 2007, the Spanish TVE2 ("La 2") public T.V. channel vandalised the Spanish article on John Lennon in the 2:30 news program, just for the sake of making a story" 22:45:18 lol 22:45:56 -!- Robdgreat has joined. 22:46:37 hi Robdgreat 22:47:27 hi there 22:47:40 Yo dawg, I heard you like fractals so I put a sierpinski gasket in your sierpinski gasket so you can triangle while you triangle 22:47:53 where does the yo dawg thing come from? 22:48:01 what started the meme? what was the original phrase? 22:48:07 allow me to link you 22:48:39 tl;dr: Xzibit is a rapper. He has a show on MTV, "Pimp My Ride". 22:48:50 They put stupid shit in cars behind people's backs relating to their interests. 22:49:00 "Yo dawg, I heard you like X so we put an X-thing in your car so you can X while you drive." 22:49:07 This was then generalized 22:49:36 also, some nitpickers point out it's supposedly "Sup dawg" 22:49:44 indeed. 22:49:48 http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/d/d6/Yoyoyodawg.jpg 22:50:48 also, i don't visit that site any more. 22:50:56 that link is sfw. 22:51:06 that general website isn't, though 22:51:12 indeed. 22:51:19 it's quite possibly blocked, and you get in trouble for setting off the blocker 22:51:28 er, blocked where? 22:51:32 you mean at work/school? 22:51:43 here at university 22:51:46 if oerjan is at one of those right now, his schedule is fucked up 22:51:55 nah i'm at home 22:51:57 although indeed makes sense for you 22:52:02 I've already set it off once and had to explain 22:52:10 for some bizarre reason, they blocked the text of the X11 licence 22:52:28 i just don't _like_ watching semi-porn while i am trying to read about something completely different 22:52:46 ... "semi-porn"? 22:52:52 i said that image was sfw. 22:53:00 but yes, the ads are annoying. 22:53:01 ais523: haha, how the heck did they question you? 22:53:02 ehird: and indeed it was 22:53:08 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi. 22:53:10 "WHY DID YOU VIEW THE x11 LICENSE? HAVE YOU NO MORALS?!?!?" 22:53:22 "...THE GPL IS THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE LICENSE!" 22:53:48 ehird: well, I sent an apologetic email explaining that I had no idea it was blocked until I hit the filter 22:54:00 did they question you first, though? 22:54:04 luckily, I'm friends with the people who administer the thing (who don't like it either0 22:54:10 i wanna know what the heck they said :D 22:54:11 ehird: it's automated, a big scary red messaeg 22:54:16 ah 22:54:23 web filters are so ridiculous 22:54:30 trivial to get around and annoy legitimate users 22:54:32 just like DRM... 22:54:43 I used to go around the filter a lot, because the filter server kept crashing 22:54:59 and so I couldn't even access email until I turned the thing off 22:55:07 however, nowadays it's a lot more reliable, so I go through it 22:55:14 also they blocked the exploit I used to use 22:55:33 and I can't be bothered to find a new one, it's not worth it 22:57:19 "Lengthwise, it'd degenerate into the debate over whether 2 is odd or even." 22:57:20 WHAT 22:57:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:58:39 ehird: indeed 22:58:44 whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat 22:59:53 http://www.xkcd545.com/ <- fail 23:00:25 ehird: 2? i did see someone trying that with 1 in that discussion you linked 23:00:26 xkcds have their own domain names now? 23:00:36 ais523: no, some idiot registered it 23:00:46 thinking that it wouldn't be deleted because he's an idiot 23:00:49 does it redirect to xkcd 545? 23:01:00 I'm not lynx(1), ais523. 23:01:05 You're perfectly capable of clicking links. 23:01:21 ehird: yes, but I don't /want/ to 23:01:34 "If the Wikipedia article gets deleted, null doesn't pay." that's definitely fail :D 23:01:36 either use a browser or miss out on the www... 23:03:16 Or use telnet :) 23:05:25 telnet is a browser 23:06:33 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:08:11 http://codu.org/wiki/?title=Card+Chess 23:08:23 it's not really chess... 23:08:57 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 23:09:14 GregorR: you should invent my awesome game 23:09:34 ais523: No. No it is not. 23:09:37 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:09:39 ais523: It's sort of in the /spirit/ of chess :P 23:09:55 ehird: If it's your game, I didn't invent it :P 23:10:14 GregorR: the basic idea is: make solving it = breaking RSA (that is, primey factory) 23:10:23 and yet still try and keep it possible for human 23:10:23 s 23:10:28 = WHERE'S YOUR AI NOW 23:10:41 for extra points, involve fractal 23:10:41 s 23:11:09 ehird: that's easy 23:11:31 bsmntbombdood: yes, but it has to be playable by humans 23:11:34 productively 23:11:40 with actual skill levels and the like, just as normal games 23:11:47 the number just have to be small enough 23:12:02 o 23:12:06 okoko 23:12:07 bsmntbombdood: point: missed. 23:12:31 ehird: I don't think that any way of organising the data, humans will be any good at solving RSA 23:12:33 no 23:12:37 your point was stupid 23:12:42 bsmntbombdood: waah. 23:12:47 by the way, new scientist's reporting that a 28-bit quantum computer has been made 23:12:50 ais523: the idea isn't to have humans solve RSA. 23:12:54 (that's 28 quantum bits of memory /altogether/) 23:12:54 i was gonna say something... 23:12:58 the idea is that for computers to solve it effectively, 23:13:01 they have to solve RSA. 23:13:12 ais523: cool, did they factor 20 yet? 23:13:14 and that there are plans for a 128-bit quantum computer being made along the same principle 23:13:16 or else be strong ai 23:13:18 oklopol: 20's even 23:13:25 ais523: ..so? 23:13:28 I think it could factor 21, though 23:13:34 oklopol: so Shor's algorithm fails on even numbers 23:13:36 i don't know anything about shor's 23:13:45 yeah okay assumed but didn't actually know 23:14:00 rsa numbers have only 2 factors anyway 23:14:24 well. 21 is the next logical step 23:16:26 is factorization np complete? 23:16:32 no 23:16:32 no 23:16:35 it's polynomial time 23:16:44 you can do it in O(n) trivially 23:16:48 but that's rather slow on big numbers 23:17:19 isn't the complexity of factorisation usually expressed in terms of the size of the number? 23:17:19 ... 23:17:24 not its value 23:17:24 yeah 23:17:32 well, O(2^n) then 23:17:43 it's pseudo-polynomial 23:17:48 personally, though, I think n should be the number 23:17:49 else what would you call it? 23:17:51 it shouldn't. 23:18:21 if it's the number, it's pseudo-polynomial, it's not polynomial on input size, it's polynomial on some invariant about input. 23:18:29 hm theory: the universe is actually simulated on a classical computer, using looping to simulate quantum effects. when quantum computers are built the number of loop iterations needed to simulate them goes asymptotical. the universe thus grinds to a halt on Dec 22, 2012 :D 23:18:29 in this case whatever number it represents 23:18:42 but if p=np, then you can factor in polynomial time in size right? 23:19:02 oerjan: that's an insane theory 23:19:10 also, people are getting the 2012 thing all wrong 23:19:22 why is that particular doomsday date the one people seem to focus on, ayway? 23:19:23 n 23:19:31 i've said this so many times to you 23:19:34 THEY'RE NEW AGERS! 23:19:36 THEY DON'T USE THEIR BRAIN! 23:19:42 ais523: i think it's because i watched that documentary. 23:19:45 THEY'RE IDIOTS WHO WILL CROWD AROUND ANYTHING "SPIRITUAL"! 23:19:49 but why that one in /particular/? 23:19:52 ais523: because it's the next one up with some kind of rationale 23:19:52 bsmntbombdood: well sure 23:19:59 BECAUSE THE MAYANS WERE CLEVER AND HAD "TECHNOLOGY"! 23:20:04 AND THEY PREDICTED IT VAGUELY AND OMNIOUSLY! 23:20:07 IT MUST BE TRUE! 23:20:10 does p!=np imply that factorization is hard? 23:20:10 oops, capslock. 23:20:13 manual capslock! 23:20:31 caps lock is cruise control for cool? 23:20:38 cruise control for 2012 23:20:38 (the previous line was typed with caps lock on) 23:20:52 bsmntbombdood: i don't know whether it's np-hard. everyone else does 23:20:59 CAPSLOCK + SHIFT = UPPERCASE ON OS X 23:21:17 more like i don't remember, because when i last looked at factorization, i didn't know what it meant. 23:21:21 i mean np-hardness 23:21:28 ehird: why? 23:21:32 that's a bit ridiculous 23:21:47 WHAT IF YOU WANT TO TYPE A lot BUT WITH A FEW lowercase WORDS OR lETTERS IN? 23:21:54 bsmntbombdood: no, but p=np would imply it's easy 23:22:03 ais523: DON"T USE CAPSLOCK 23:22:06 (well, polynomially easy) 23:22:06 and before you say that's ridiculous, that was typical style for earlier versions of BASIC 23:22:16 oh wait 23:22:19 and shift+caps lock was capital there too, annoyingly 23:22:29 in fact i definitely should've known it's not been proven np-hard. 23:22:33 I still mostly used caps lock when writing basic, though, as everything had to be capital but variable names 23:23:12 no one knows whether it's np-hard, i should think 23:23:16 yeah 23:23:52 i don't see any reason to use lowercase except that many dislike uppercase on irc 23:24:06 lowercase is easier to read for long periods of time 23:24:38 i don't believe that 23:25:30 they also say monospaced fonts are harder to read 23:26:15 and that is complete bullshit 23:26:28 no it isnt' 23:26:32 (INTERNET ARGUMENTS) 23:26:47 INTERN ET ARGUMENTS 23:27:36 is so. 23:28:11 there's actually a course on quantum computing in our uni, would be one way to learn shor's algo, i'm too lazy to read the wiki page anyway. 23:28:34 oklopol: it wasn't until after my course on engineering that I understood Shor's algorithm 23:28:38 it's based on Fourier stuff 23:28:52 and all the descriptions of it I've seen assume you already know how that works 23:29:16 i might know fourier stuff, i but i don't know whether i do. 23:29:24 *-i 23:29:54 you have to get your numbers fourier before they can be shorn 23:29:59 what does "engineering" mean for a course? 23:30:15 "shorn", hah 23:30:39 * oerjan is surprised to still be alive after that one 23:31:13 because it was that bad? 23:33:20 well, clearly it killed everyone else 23:34:10 clearly 23:34:59 maybe you were saved by not getting all of it, or something 23:37:17 i think i just liked "shorn" 23:37:45 ais523: what is an engineering course? :) 23:37:55 oklopol: well it's electronic engineering in my case 23:38:14 i have an electronics course next wednesday 23:38:20 err i mean the one after that 23:38:24 and 23:38:26 i also mean exam 23:38:27 . 23:39:20 also calculus and software engineering and some ai, should probably try to cut down on the irc chatter. 23:44:12 so guys reiserfs4 23:44:18 I hear it's gonna be a killer filesystem 23:44:30 * oerjan swats ehird to death -----### 23:44:31 that joke is so last year 23:44:37 SimonRC: i know but it's still funny 23:44:41 oerjan: dammit Hans! 23:44:44 I was joking! 23:44:51 and i wasn't? 23:44:52 apparently Reiser is having a bad time in prison 23:44:58 also, don't call me Hans 23:45:11 SimonRC: ... and? 23:45:52 SimonRC: ... and? 23:46:39 I can't find where the news article went 23:46:48 On 10 January 2009 it was reported that Hans Reiser is recovering after having been beaten up by several prisoners.[52] 23:46:50 oerjan: why not? 23:46:51 engineering: it's a bit of programming, a bit of electronics, a bit of maths, and some business management that I hate 23:46:54 i feel ... so sorry for him? 23:46:55 does it sound too swedish? 23:47:08 oklopol: because! 23:47:25 ah, here it is: http://cbs5.com/crime/hans.reiser.attack.2.905257.html 23:48:01 oklopol: oh it's a perfectly normal norwegian name, it's just not mine 23:48:54 maybe it should be. 23:48:54 i've got two cousins with it as first or middle name 23:48:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:49:29 and bye ice 23:49:30 (although we don't actually use the latter one) 23:50:31 well middle names are kinda useless 23:51:44 i'm just about the only one on my father's side of the family who _doesn't_ have one... 23:53:16 also, reiser means "travels" in norwegian 2009-02-23: 00:04:11 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 00:09:07 http://www.curioustaxonomy.net/ 00:09:14 * SimonRC goes to bed 00:09:36 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:11:51 http://www.conservapedia.com/Diagonalization 00:13:18 " Diagonalization and the Existence of God" 00:13:18 Ah yes, conservapedia, truly MY reliable source of information. 00:13:24 Yep, I'm on conservapedia 00:14:00 However, diagonalization argues that no greatest idea can exist: quite bluntly, God is infinite, therefore He can be diagonalized to produce an even greater infinite.[3] This seeming disproof of the existence of God has cast doubt on the validity of Cantor's diagonalization. 00:14:31 Even for conservapedia that's pretty retarded :P 00:14:58 I bet this was written by Shlafly 00:15:01 I especially like how 2/3 references were in that section :P 00:15:07 He has that weird obsession with math 00:15:21 About how math was in a huge liberal conspiracy or something 00:16:05 but it's true! 00:16:11 -!- freakpp has joined. 00:16:21 the universe _is_ in a huge liberal conspiracy! 00:16:50 which God started, naturally 00:17:38 or was that supernaturally 00:17:40 -!- freakpp has quit (Client Quit). 00:17:54 oops i scared away freakpp 00:18:41 -!- freakpp has joined. 00:18:45 not really 00:18:50 ah 00:21:18 apparently i scared away everyone else instead 00:21:44 * GregorR peeks in, frightened. 00:22:14 BOO! 00:22:22 sorry, reflex 00:22:26 * oklopol marches in carrying a gun 00:22:40 *three guns 00:22:47 * oerjan checks if the swatter is bullet proof 00:22:56 * GregorR drives in in a healthy human baby truck. 00:23:15 I'll have a large one, with extra fries! 00:23:29 i laugh at pretty much everything today 00:23:40 oerjan: Would you like to supersize that? 00:23:56 you mean like a healthy adolescent? 00:23:58 oerjan: Two smalls for 59¢ more than one large! 00:24:02 nah i'll have to watch my weight 00:24:14 OK, pick up at the first window. 00:25:12 well 00:25:16 i'm gonna go now 00:25:17 so 00:25:19 * oerjan munches 00:25:24 . 00:28:23 -!- freakpp has quit ("system faulire"). 00:58:33 http://chrisfenton.com/non-von-1/ 01:00:05 i want to try temperature feedback 01:00:23 the idea is, put a temperature sensor on your finger and try to adjust your own temperature 01:00:36 what's a good practical way to do this? 01:01:09 i.e. you need a fast temperature sensor and some way to tell that the temperature is changing up or down 01:01:47 i just tried an impractical way - put together a circuit which plays a sound the frequency of which changes when you heat up a transistor 01:02:43 it's too slow, not sensitive enough, and you get very tired very quickly of hearing the sound 01:04:56 Building an electronic mood ring? 01:05:25 oh, good point, mood rings do the same thing 01:05:39 but i think they're very slow 01:05:54 i just want a precise instantaneous thermometer 01:06:11 Mood rings are very slow, yes, that was a joke, not a suggestion :P 01:06:55 i guess mood rings are actually quite accurate 01:07:10 if they manage to map the normal body temperature range to a bunch of different colours 01:07:30 s/accurate/precise 01:07:50 yeah, a fast mood ring would be ideal 01:08:21 i guess for speed you need to use a material that conducts heat well... 01:09:49 i've never used electronic thermometers, are they fast? 01:09:58 i know they exist and are sold in drug stores 01:30:05 go through someone that sells specialized sensing equipment 01:30:11 i'm sure you can find something cheap 01:33:20 Specialized sensing equipment you say ... 01:33:27 * GregorR drives around his healthy human babies truck. 01:38:48 firefox really sucks 01:41:07 * oerjan realizes he has created a monster 01:41:27 GregorR: were did this joke come from? 01:42:18 bsmntbombdood: http://spamusement.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11821 01:43:57 why is his groin blurry? 01:44:59 ... seriously? 01:45:21 It's censored. 01:47:52 oh there's a poster with that name? 01:49:32 Yeah 02:05:30 -!- lifthras1ir has joined. 02:05:30 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:22:47 -!- amca_ has joined. 03:22:54 -!- amca_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:31:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 04:49:46 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 04:49:46 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:55:10 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 05:07:47 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:08:32 Bye all 05:09:18 -!- Sgeo_ has quit ("Leaving"). 06:17:47 Hi all 07:05:18 -!- comex has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:06:09 -!- comex has joined. 07:23:28 -!- Figs has joined. 07:23:35 Hello 07:24:38 Does anyone here know the (proper) name for sliding block puzzles? 07:35:38 Sliding Block Puzzles 07:37:59 When I look for that though, I get things related to the 15 puzzle. 07:38:21 Which may be related, but isn't (directly at least) what I'm looking for 07:41:01 Like, you know how in Zelda, Pokemon, and other games, there are some rooms where you have to slide a block across some ice? 07:51:16 what's zelda and pokeman? 07:52:34 Video games 07:53:15 oh 07:53:15 lame 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:08:41 -!- Figs has left (?). 09:21:32 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 09:30:34 who 09:30:37 whoa* 09:30:39 Deewiant, there? 09:30:50 I tested cfunge on openbsd (sparc64) 09:31:01 it worked, couldn't get cmake to compile, got OOM when trying 09:31:04 but did it by hand 09:31:10 had to do some strange workarounds 09:31:25 but anyway I see some weird stuff due to openbsd 09:31:27 or sparc 09:31:36 like asin(2) is 0.0000 not nan 09:31:54 and for FIXP 2aaaa****J pushes 0 09:32:08 on my linux box it pushes a large negative number 09:32:27 asin(2) should be complex :o 09:32:50 Slereah_, yes but it is floating point 09:32:52 which means nan 09:33:01 but I guess sparc64 isn't strictly IEEE 09:33:04 or something 09:33:31 oh and why does the values for addresses in SCKE/SOCK differ... 09:33:33 oh wait 09:33:33 duh 09:33:36 big endian 09:34:17 apart from that it looks OK 09:34:30 didn't manage to get the ncurses using extensions to build 09:37:54 oh defines in ncurses mess up there 09:38:02 I think 09:39:06 ah 09:39:07 #if !defined(__cplusplus) 09:39:07 #undef bool 09:39:07 typedef unsigned char bool; 09:39:07 #endif 09:42:28 bsmntbombdood: you didn't know what zelda and pokemon are? 09:42:52 And who would win if Zelda fought a pokemon! 09:43:26 Slereah_, I think that happened in some "supersmash bros" or something 09:43:39 How gay. 09:49:35 "AnMaster: like asin(2) is 0.0000 not nan" <<< no, asin(2) is nan 09:49:50 the range of sine is [-1, 1] 09:50:08 i didn't read context, maybe i just misunderstood 09:50:10 dunno 09:52:13 * oklopol gives up and reads context 09:53:01 11:31… Slereah_: asin(2) should be complex :o <<< i guess this is a better answer 09:53:35 it's just you rarely need sines of complexes 09:53:46 at least afaik 09:54:57 oklopol, well not on this system 09:58:26 not on this system what? you rarely need them on that system, not a better answer on that system..? 09:59:03 * AnMaster facepalms. Why is OpenBSD headers not following POSIX 09:59:04 like 09:59:23 they implement mmap() without defining _POSIX_MAPPED_FILES 10:34:49 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:37:44 -!- Slereah has joined. 10:48:06 oklopol: the asin() thing is a openbsd bug, fixed since last release 10:57:43 -!- jix has joined. 11:18:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:35:58 i'm out. 11:36:23 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 11:45:56 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 12:05:41 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 12:08:26 -!- jix has joined. 12:38:57 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:01:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:31:42 A warning: Never every try to provide help in any other distro channel than source based geeky ones like #gentoo. You end up headdesking a lot and thinking it is #ubuntu... Like trying to explain what "port forwarding" is... 13:35:29 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:39:58 -!- Dewi has left (?). 13:44:26 -!- Corun has joined. 14:34:09 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:34:48 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:34:50 -!- ehird has joined. 14:35:08 [14:34:46] [13:31:42] A warning: Never every try to provide help in any other distro channel than source based geeky ones like #gentoo. You end up headdesking a lot and thinking it is #ubuntu... Like trying to explain what "port forwarding" is... 14:35:14 waah not everyone knows the technical knowledge I do 14:35:16 they're idiots 14:35:22 real men use SOURCED BASED distros 14:35:23 etc 14:36:21 ehird, no but when you are still trying to do it after 10 minutes 14:36:22 .... 14:36:31 okay, you didn't mention that 14:46:22 23:51:16 what's zelda and pokeman? 14:46:22 23:52:34 Video games 14:46:22 23:53:15 oh 14:46:22 23:53:15 lame 14:47:30 01:59:03 * AnMaster facepalms. Why is OpenBSD headers not following POSIX 14:47:40 people aren't perfect? some software bugs if it's posix compliant? 14:49:33 Minors under 16 years old use this site. Posting of obscenity here is punishable by up to 10 years in jail under 18 USC § 1470. Vandalism is punishable up to 10 years in jail per 18 USC § 1030. Harassment is punishable by 2 years in jail per 47 USC § 223. The IP addresses of vandals will be reported to authorities. That includes your employer and your local prosecutor. 14:49:36 i love conservapedia 14:50:18 Post some goatse right now 15:05:04 -!- oklopol has joined. 15:08:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:09:11 hi ais523 15:09:15 hi 15:21:03 Hmm. I have both ~/Junk, ~/Code/scraps, ~/Saved and ~/Downloads. 15:21:07 Somehow this all makes sense to me. 15:21:23 well, I have a similar organisation 15:21:37 I have a massive ~/research folder which holds everything that I didn't write 15:21:56 ~/Junk is my sandbox; I play with files and stuff there. ~/Code/scraps/YYYY-MM/ holds ephemeral bits of code from those dates. 15:22:13 ~/Saved/YYYY-MM/ holds downloads and documents, etc, from those dates. 15:22:27 ~/Downloads is an ephemeral folder holding things I download; never non-empty for more than a few hours. 15:24:44 I love how much "Save Lisp and Die" sounds like a biker slogan. 15:25:02 I have ~/src ~/unknown ~/tmp ~/irc and a few others 15:25:14 ~/src holds my own code and stuff where I follow svn or such 15:25:27 ~/unknown holds old ones 15:25:29 :P 15:25:43 given that I spend nearly all my time programming, most of my programming projects are just directly off ~ 15:25:49 ehird, for me it holds stuff I found in ~ and ~/Desktop that seem interesting or important but I have no clue about 15:26:14 including for example some sql dumps 15:26:17 *shrug* 15:26:21 AnMaster: That would be ~/Saved/YYYY-MM/ in my system 15:26:22 on ~/irc is quite sorted 15:26:29 I have ~/irc/fn/esoteric/ehird 15:26:30 for example 15:26:35 for stuff I got from you 15:26:56 contains ehird-python-lambda-bot.py for example 15:27:14 that's 15:27:15 insane 15:28:00 ehird, very well ordered yes 15:28:07 The sb-ext:truly-the special form declares the type of the result of the operations, producing its argument; the declaration is not checked. In short: don't use it. 15:28:08 — Special Operator: sb-ext:truly-the value-type form 15:28:08 Specifies that the values returned by form conform to the value-type, and causes the compiler to trust this information unconditionally. 15:28:18 Consequences are undefined if any result is not of the declared type -- typical symptoms including memory corruptions. Use with great care. 15:28:19 ^ tee hee 15:28:19 (truly-the fixnum 3) 15:32:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 15:34:24 -!- jix has joined. 15:40:50 i take pride in keeping my whole file system so disorganized and things so randomly named no one, including me, can find anything in there. 15:41:23 i used to do that 15:41:24 then 15:41:25 I died 15:41:29 and became a zombbie 15:41:49 my file system is more or less organised enough that I can find things in a few tries 15:42:48 i can't wait for plan10 and I'll just use the damn ubiquitous search. :P 15:43:35 I was actually thinking blue-skies about how to do something more unixy than unix 15:43:40 well the mind is somewhat of a splay tree, so it doesn't matter what organization one uses. 15:43:41 I ended up with a crazy design 15:43:57 where everything had 8 standard filehandles rather than 3, regardless of whether it was running or not 15:44:06 and individual characters in files had creation dates 15:44:23 ha 15:44:34 ais523: to be more unix, you have to be more worse is better 15:44:34 ehird: well, that's why i keep mine disorganized, why do something inherently suboptimal locally optimally. 15:44:36 I think that fails that 15:44:47 oklopol: yeah it's just in the meantime :< 15:45:18 ehird: well, put it this way 15:45:21 you know what grep does? 15:45:25 yes 15:45:26 he does 15:45:32 it has an option to put the filename and number at the start of each match 15:45:40 now, why is that grep-specific? 15:45:45 it would be a lot more unixy to be able to do that to anything 15:45:46 it shouldn't be 15:45:49 cat, tail 15:45:50 and so on 15:45:57 actually, I think there cannot be something more unixy than unix 15:46:00 so the idea is a program that identifies which files things came from 15:46:02 you run in to worse is better immediately 15:46:12 because unix works ok in practice, it has mastered the UNIX nature 15:46:28 well, maybe my idea isn't unixy 15:46:39 the basic rule is that no program should have any command-line options 15:46:51 apart from optionally one pipe that gives it information to operate on 15:46:56 like a list of files, for instance 15:47:29 god i hate command-line options... (i probably shouldn't talk about oses :o) 15:49:10 oklopol: i hate your face 15:49:13 not so nice now is it :| 15:49:14 and that whole unix pipeline thing, i mean sure it's great compared to not having it, but seriously, how can anyone not see it's great because you can treat the programs syntactically like functions in the command line, and that you should just actually make them functions 15:49:30 because unix is crap 15:49:36 SO IS YOUR FACE 15:49:39 i agree 15:49:42 my face is crappy crap crap 15:49:51 but it's nicer than my face anyway. 15:49:55 yes. 15:51:02 should probably go again, don't talk while i'm gone. 15:51:24 so ais523 -- now that oklopol has gone -- 15:51:45 * ais523 mumbles 15:51:54 ais523: and individual characters in files had creation dates <<< this sounds like the recording everything ideology, the problem is it's done for an arbitrary subset of information, kinda defeating the use it normally has. 15:51:56 TALK TALK TALK TALK TALK 15:52:12 oklopol: well, I am planning to record everything, really 15:52:22 but when thinking of ideas, I just work out what's necessary for them to work 15:52:43 that's just plan11. 15:52:43 lame. 15:52:56 knowing exactly what has to be recorded gives you more flexibility than just recording everything 15:53:35 oh right 15:53:36 the going. 15:53:37 -> 15:54:35 HEY oklopol 15:56:12 so how come everytime i decide to make a program snippet well i realize doing it well would require me to make a massive intelligent framework for stuff similar to it, and i start getting syntax ideas for an esolang based on that task 15:56:35 am i a cow? 15:57:15 anyway, i refuse to acknowledge your hey. 15:57:16 -> 15:58:37 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 15:59:57 oklopol: whut kind of framework in question whuz this 16:04:18 basically i was just making a program that randomizes the order in which i should do my stuffs. 16:07:28 blah 16:07:31 too long to explain 16:08:05 maybe i'll explain next seventh of september 16:09:23 Haha, a message by Andrew Cooke of malbolge fame, sent via deja.com, in 2000, commenting on the then-new SBCL fork of CMUCL, with this sig: 16:09:27 Andrew 16:09:27 http://www.andrewcooke.free-online.co.uk/index.html 16:09:33 Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ 16:09:34 Before you buy. 16:09:35 Also, he used uppercase letters. 16:09:36 Really. 16:11:11 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:22:43 >> What is correct way to write the next "sbcl" command in "clisp" ? The 16:22:54 >> main problem is that we have not "save-lisp-and-die" command in clisp. 16:22:55 >> 16:22:55 > 16:22:56 > http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/image.html 16:22:57 > 16:22:58 > If you require a memory corruption feature ("and-die"), you will have 16:22:58 > to implement it yourself as a CLISP extension. 16:24:23 deja.com redirects to google groups nowadays 16:30:23 yep 16:30:29 I was just commenting on the vintageness 16:33:27 the fun thing about save-lisp-and-die is that the -and-die part is arguably a bug 16:33:37 what does save-lisp-and-die do? 16:33:47 freezes the state of the program and exits? 16:33:59 ais523: pretty much, it's an SBCL function. saves the current Lisp to a resumable core file 16:34:09 you can do :executable t to get a binary of a lisp program 16:34:10 for distribution 16:34:13 the -and-die part, well 16:34:18 as I said, arguably a bug: 16:34:20 the process of dumping the lisp to a core image corrupts its memory beyond recovery 16:34:27 so the only thing you can do after dumping the image is kill the process 16:34:31 so it does 16:34:37 does the process of loading the core image corrupt the image beyond recovert? 16:34:43 no 16:34:45 if not, you could just reload instantly and keep going 16:34:50 yes 16:34:54 that's what you essentially do 16:34:58 ais523: or, fork then dump 16:35:01 but most of the time you don't want to use it 16:35:04 only for deployment 16:35:14 and even then just bundling sbcl with the app is 'preferred' 16:35:23 why does dumping corrupt memory anyway? 16:35:44 ais523: I'm not sure 16:35:50 it's some complicated reason 16:36:35 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-02/standalone-lisp] % sbcl --load hello-world.lisp --eval '(deploy)' 16:36:36 (output cruft) 16:36:36 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-02/standalone-lisp] % ./hello-world 16:36:36 Hello, world! 16:36:36 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-02/standalone-lisp] % time ./hello-world 16:36:37 Hello, world! 16:36:46 ./hello-world 0.01s user 0.01s system 90% cpu 0.025 total 16:36:46 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-02/standalone-lisp] % ls -lh hello-world 16:36:47 -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 25M 23 Feb 16:35 hello-world 16:36:49 ^ dumps are large, especially executable ones 16:37:03 commercial lisps have a 'tree shaker', which removes unused functions from the generated image 16:37:07 but they're difficult 16:37:10 and the overhead is constant anyway 16:37:31 so, e.g., a very large "enterprise" lisp app will be more on the order of 100MB than 500MB 16:38:17 ais523: it's also kind of a hack: it relies on the fact that all common object file formats ignore garbage at the end of file 16:38:21 so it just dumps sbcl, then the image 16:38:31 kind of like perl's __END__ 16:38:43 there's no real need to rely on that fact, is there? 16:38:51 couldn't you just mark the region as initialised data or something? 16:38:56 ais523: the alternative is relying on the system's linker 16:38:58 that would have exactly the same effect, but be legal 16:39:02 and not everyone has a C development environment 16:39:15 well, the alternative alternative is knowing what the object file format is 16:39:46 implementing the whole object format? 16:39:49 what a waste of time 16:40:25 ais523: here's the source of hello-world.lisp in the above example: 16:40:26 http://paste.lisp.org/display/76026 16:41:27 looks surprisingly complex 16:41:34 really? 16:41:38 its very simple 16:41:45 the start is the standard package prelude, then a trivial main function 16:41:58 then it's just save-lisp-and-di to hello-world, executable, and the toplevel is (main) (quit) 16:42:44 ais523: the more conventional way is to just do (save-lisp-and-die "hello-world.core"), then include sbcl and a shell script that does: 16:42:50 sbcl --core hello-world.core --eval '(progn (main) (quit))' 16:43:04 this way is tidier though 16:45:05 ais523: you could put this in a library so it becomes 16:45:19 (defun deploy () (deployer:deploy "hello-world" #'main)) 16:46:03 and that's how you compile Lisp 16:46:17 ais523: 'compile' != 'produce standalone executable' 16:46:18 but yes 16:46:27 in the conventional sense, that's how you compile a lisp pr ogram 16:48:53 about 0 people cared about that rant there, I think 16:51:48 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:51:56 Hello, Hiato. 16:52:53 hello ehird 16:54:30 i was gonna say hello too, but there was no common pattern :< 16:54:50 because of the lack of comma 16:54:56 :( 16:55:24 :P 16:56:20 who is it that normally ruins patterns around here anyway 16:56:28 me 16:56:33 i think 16:56:38 and I think to continue the pattern I'd have to omit a few more characters 16:56:42 so hellooklopo 16:57:28 "hell oklopol" 16:57:33 wait 16:57:34 what about {h,e,l,o,k,p} -> use appropriately 16:57:34 yeah 16:57:36 "hell oklopo" 16:58:03 i don't see why it'd be hellooklopo 16:58:07 oh right. 16:58:13 i guess you could just be erasing the other way 16:58:15 I was removing a character from the end of each word, including punctuation 16:58:16 * oklopol slaps self 16:58:34 hell oklopo probably fits the pattern better, though 16:58:46 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 16:58:53 hell yeah 16:59:03 wonder why Hiato left so early :) 16:59:26 ...anyway back on topic it's actually Hell oklopo 16:59:40 hiato said hell 16:59:41 o 16:59:43 not Hello 17:00:02 H -> h -> H you sillypants 17:02:44 o 17:03:01 -!- Hiato has joined. 17:10:19 hmm, oklopol, have you ever invented a language and then just like sat there admiring it and you realise that you don't actually want to write the program you made it for 17:10:21 :| 17:13:43 ehird: you still have a language to admire 17:13:46 so it's still a good thing 17:13:57 yeah, but then I realise all programs are pointless and I just sit there :-D 17:15:29 languages can be more fun than programs in them 17:15:38 I've never written a program in Eodermdrome, but I still sit there admiring it 17:16:33 languages are usually more fun than programs. 17:17:26 ehird: no not really, since i usually don't make my languages for a real purpose. 17:17:40 i usually build them around a small proof-of-concept 17:27:47 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0475.html 17:27:48 oh jeez. 17:28:06 ((Descends into discussion of localizing the whole thing, I am not shitting you)) 17:50:32 I bet you "color" is the more common spelling :P 17:51:09 heh, many programs have UK and US localisations 17:51:14 and I think "the" is actually the most common spelling 17:54:04 X_X 17:54:14 If you're going to play that stupid game, "a" is almost certainly more common. 17:55:39 "the" is the most common word in English 17:55:44 by pretty much every count that people have tried 17:58:03 Huh 18:00:44 the the the the the the the the the 18:00:48 HA! Even more common. 18:00:55 aubergine aubergine aubergine aubergine aubergine aubergine aubergine aubergine aubergine aubergine aubergine 18:01:00 A retalliation. 18:09:25 ehird, this language you mentioned 18:09:30 which one is it 18:09:36 " hmm, oklopol, have you ever invented a language and then just like sat there admiring it and you realise that you don't actually want to write the program you made it for" 18:09:48 AnMaster: actually, not one right now, I was just thinking of previous occurances 18:09:53 ah ok 18:10:41 it looked like you were trying to solve an urgent and deep emotional relation problem towards a language you just created. 18:11:27 but turned out it was just gas 18:12:00 AnMaster: languages beat me as a child :( 18:12:03 ... So, anyway. 18:12:34 ehird, I see. You should get some professional help then to avoid post-programming trauma 18:12:45 the worst was C. 18:12:49 corrupted memory. every day. 18:12:53 ehird, if you have emacs try M-x doctor 18:14:16 AnMaster: http://pastie.org/397602.txt?key=f8979ft6x7ffg800ibxkaq 18:15:01 * lament buffer-overruns ehird's brain 18:15:26 traumatic 18:17:17 ehird, heh 18:18:04 ehird, try asking it about taking your own life or such, it is anti-fun 18:18:19 anti-fun? XD 18:18:21 ehird, oh and it is also fun to insult it 18:18:50 ehird, like telling it "I want to kill myself!" 18:19:04 I am the psychotherapist. Please, describe your problems. Each time you are finished talking, type RET twice. Richard M Stallman is my father. Do you know Stallman? 18:19:15 ehird, heh 18:19:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:19:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:20:24 ehird, other fun things: try to play doctor back at it 18:20:33 thing* 18:20:46 Bot feedback loops tend to work better with more advanced AI than eliza 18:21:10 ehird, it detects it sometimes and say stuff like "I'll ask the questions here please!" 18:21:26 ehird, did you see how I meant with "anti-fun" bvtw? 18:21:28 btw* 18:21:39 it's awful 18:25:35 ehird, yes 18:27:43 Tell me more about ask the questions here please! 18:29:02 lament, hehe 18:32:09 lament: have you ever seen a duck? 18:32:19 oklopol: yes, repeatedly. 18:32:27 how repeatedly? 18:32:37 and have you ever seen on continuously? 18:32:50 *oen 18:32:52 *oen 18:32:53 *one 18:32:55 ... 18:33:07 oklopol: that's boring, you should have corrected the corrections rather than the string 18:33:09 as in 18:33:11 on 18:33:12 *oen 18:33:14 **oen 18:33:15 ***one 18:33:20 that way all your corrections are correct to 18:33:22 *too 18:33:36 i used to do that 18:33:58 but you know i'm always correcting a substring of an earlier message anyway. 18:34:06 so i'm just correcting the substring after * 18:34:27 don't worry, it doesn't lose generality, just optimization 18:37:50 unary is so stupid 18:38:00 erally stpuid 18:38:07 (! 1 'really) 18:38:12 (! 2 'stupidd) 18:38:17 (! 2 'stupid) 18:38:24 voila, corrected the correction in the same way. 18:38:31 what am I ranting about again 18:41:58 that solves the problem of which substring you're fixing (for stuff with plenty whitespace), but you still don't know what you're correcting 18:56:26 oklopol: the last line with errors. 18:58:17 ic 18:58:58 oklopol: actually, most of the time you could just use * 18:59:07 since if someone knows you have an error they probably know the rpelamcent 18:59:08 * 19:12:45 -!- olsner has joined. 19:15:07 hi olsner 19:15:20 hi5 19:15:34 my real name is indeed ^H5 19:15:36 how did you know? 19:16:24 that is not important 19:18:07 ehird: what sort of parents put a literal backspace in someone's name? 19:18:12 that's as bad as the whole bobby tables thing 19:18:26 * ais523 wonders if there's a real life bobby tables, XKCD can be very influential sometimes 19:18:43 well there's a www.gameparadise.com in usa 19:18:57 ais523: I much prefer ^C:!rm -rf ~ as a name. 19:19:03 It, ehm, improves tast.e 19:19:04 *taste 19:19:13 ehird: a name designed to annoy vi users? 19:19:17 Verily! 19:19:21 Hm. 19:19:24 How to make it an emacs polyglot... 19:19:36 the characters in emacs for that aren't even in standard character sets 19:19:45 well, meta-! is 163, isn't it? 19:19:53 so it would depend on what character encoding you were using 19:19:53 :-D 19:20:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:08:08 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:16:56 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:23:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:30:11 Another thing they are trying to do is cut all the hard words out of the English language. They are changing it to make it more simple so that people will not be too clever or think too much. --simple english wikipedia on 1984 20:31:37 haha 20:36:13 Percent means out of one hundred. It is often shown with the symbol "%". It is used even if there are not a hundred items. The number is then scaled so it can be compared to one hundred. For instance, four hot lesbians are rubbing and spanking in bed, three of them are white and one is black. The percentage of white lesbians is 3 out of 4 = 3/4 = 75/100 = 75%. 20:36:18 odd vandalism. 20:36:35 heh 20:43:11 * oklopol thought the part before the lesbians was funnier 20:43:45 (then again i guess you'd explain what percentages mean in an article about percentages.) 21:17:22 ehird, you read XKCD today I see 21:19:36 * ais523 wonders if there's a real life bobby tables, XKCD can be very influential sometimes <-- oh dear.. I hope not too much in this case... 21:20:28 oh btw i *am* 20 21:20:42 just wanted to make sure no one would congratulate me 21:21:13 oklopol, congrats then 21:21:22 too late! mwahahaha 21:22:15 oklopol, gratulerar i efterskott 21:22:16 then 21:22:24 not sure how you say that in English 21:22:28 and then it isn't too late 21:22:28 :D 21:22:46 it means like retroactive congrats 21:22:58 * AnMaster looks for oerjan to explain 21:23:01 gah not here 21:23:05 olsner, you then ^ 21:23:36 me!? 21:23:55 olsner, you can speak Swedish 21:23:57 you have to help 21:24:06 sorry, eating chips, can only type with one hand 21:24:14 olsner, how do you translate "gratulerar i efterskott" 21:24:30 olsner, how did that northbridge taste? 21:25:13 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:25:59 "i congratulate you after i shoot you" 21:26:48 oklopol, no 21:27:16 AnMaster: apparently bash 4 has just been released 21:27:27 more like "I wish I could have congratulated you when it happened, but I didn't know about it and thus send my retroactive congratulations" 21:27:32 ais523, whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 21:27:38 GNU bash, version 3.2.25(0)-release (i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) 21:27:51 GNU bash, version 3.2.39(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) 21:27:54 it's still stealing good ideas from zsh, it seems 21:28:03 time to update my ports tree 21:28:10 GNU bash, version 3.2.39(1)-release (i486-pc-linux-gnu) 21:28:17 AnMaster: i know what it means, i would've known what you meant even if you'd said "garble garble florble florble". 21:28:18 wow, I'm using almost exactly the same version as AnMaster 21:28:31 apart from the arch, it's the same 21:28:33 yep 21:28:35 ais523, not strange 21:29:05 ok, it'd probably be best if i restart stuff 21:29:08 once this is done 21:29:36 wow. i haven't updated my ports tree in quite some time. 21:29:51 http://www.bash-hackers.org/wiki/doku.php/bash4 21:29:59 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:30:16 hmm... looks like they've added simutrans to the ports list 21:30:16 declare -A declares associative arrays (see below). 21:30:18 yay 21:30:20 YAYAYYAYAYAYAYAYAYA 21:30:25 FINALLY\o/ 21:30:41 i had to build it myself and IIRC had to hack a few things up 21:31:02 i recall looking through the source and finding that someone accidentally set the mixer speed to 22500 instead of 22050 21:33:40 dammit it's only at 3.2.48 right now 21:34:22 (bash, that is) 21:34:31 (as opposed to simutrans in the last few lines) 21:34:57 GreaseMonkey, I used simutrans on gentoo for ages 21:34:59 it is fun 21:35:03 heh 21:35:05 also, a note 21:35:08 wait.. 21:35:19 GreaseMonkey, and bash 4.0 is new 21:35:30 there's one main difference between 99.14 and 99.15 21:35:35 99.15 is considerably slower 21:35:44 GreaseMonkey, I'm using 100.something? 21:35:46 that's pretty much the only difference i noticed 21:35:51 i'm downloading 101 21:35:58 GreaseMonkey, oh I have 100.0 21:36:05 I need to update the port then 21:36:06 i forget what the last one i had 21:36:10 erm 21:36:16 GreaseMonkey, and yeah newer versions are slower 21:36:20 i've forgotten which one i had last 21:36:50 yeah, had 100.0 21:37:22 also, if you use SDL_mixer, you can get it to play files other than just MIDI 21:38:38 GreaseMonkey, sound off 21:38:43 butts. 21:38:45 I listen to classical music all the tame 21:38:47 :P 21:39:03 GreaseMonkey, what is new in 101? 21:39:14 i'm still building it 21:39:17 GreaseMonkey, I'm just going to update the ebuild for it and recompile 21:39:20 :P 21:39:29 like you update a ports 21:39:36 AnMaster: and do you listen to death metal all the wild? 21:39:47 oklopol, oh typo for time 21:39:53 http://tiswww.case.edu/php/chet/bash/NEWS seems to be the changelog 21:40:12 (yes, also mine didn't make much sense, the problem is classical music isn't really that "tame", so i just took a random genre.) 21:40:46 oklopol, I like Vivaldi's summer for example, which is anything but tame 21:40:53 I guess you heard it 21:41:02 yes, i've heard most of the famous stuff 21:41:18 it seems they stole ** from zsh, ehird will probably be either happy or angry at that 21:41:31 i like winter, the rest are only good in the parts that are copied from winter. 21:41:40 i pretty much just know summer and spring 21:41:45 Kraus? in some cases he is like Mozart + (vivaldi's summer - vivaldi's spring) 21:41:46 oh, and i *might* know winter 21:41:49 * AnMaster loves that 21:43:08 http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.554777 21:43:33 hope you can find VB 140 IV. Allegro on youtube 21:44:09 q. A new `-E' option to the complete builtin allows control of the default behavior for completion on an empty line. 21:44:14 hmm... 21:44:42 [butt@comp] $ 21:44:42 Are you drunk, sir? 21:44:42 [butt@comp] $ 21:44:46 the main feature.... 21:45:21 what do you think is the best new feature? 21:45:23 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 21:45:25 I think it is associative array variables 21:46:14 GreaseMonkey, can you test something 21:46:18 if you have bash 4 21:46:26 foo=myindex 21:46:27 i don't, sorry :/ 21:46:35 bar[$foo] = "test" 21:46:44 echo $bar[myindex] 21:46:45 ah ok 21:47:08 wait needs declare -A 21:47:10 wow. they added a feature even quickbasic doesn't have! 21:47:34 oklopol, ? 21:48:39 nevermind, it's a complex programming joke 21:48:52 also may require some serious misunderstanding about what you're talking about 21:51:19 I don't know quickbasic 21:51:20 night 21:53:22 :D 21:53:26 well night 22:02:23 argh wtf simutrans 101 crashed when i placed a stop <_< 22:18:23 13:20:28 oh btw i *am* 20 22:18:23 13:20:42 just wanted to make sure no one would congratulate me 22:18:24 universe 22:18:25 over 22:18:33 quantum spacetime rip 22:18:35 very yes 22:19:06 AnMaster: apparently bash 4 has just been released 22:19:06 yawn 22:19:11 how many versions behind zsh now? ;-) 22:19:18 well it does ** 22:19:29 finally. I think that was in zsh 1. 22:19:49 declare -A declares associative arrays (see below). 22:19:50 quaint 22:30:55 hmm, have they fixed this? 22:30:55 [ben@roflcopter ~]$ cd // 22:30:56 [ben@roflcopter //]$ pwd 22:30:56 / 22:31:08 erm, bad copying 22:31:24 it's two slashes when you do pwd 22:31:36 oh yeah, IRC. 22:42:58 aaaaaaaaa 23:09:45 wow oklopol is only 20? 23:09:46 crazy 23:11:03 I'ma invent an esolang 23:11:06 haven't done that in a whiles 23:11:22 it will be based on bicycles. 23:11:52 the mac was first intended to be a bicycle. 23:11:54 for the mind. 23:13:41 okay, I think I have a language idea. 23:13:54 sub-TC, but there are non-trivial halting and non-halting programs. all looping is done via cyclic program lists 23:14:02 cyclic, get it? 23:14:11 halting problem is solvable ofc 23:14:19 interesting :o 23:15:13 now i gotsa figures it out how to makes it work 23:18:15 psygnisfive: only? i thought i was rather childish. 23:18:32 bicycles? 23:18:44 you mean those things you can bike with 23:18:50 yep. 23:18:53 and also make cycles with. 23:19:14 so 23:19:34 can you use it both for algorithmic purposes and for getting to the shop? 23:19:46 yes. if you attach a bicycle to your computer, that is, for the latter. 23:19:55 the cord should be long. 23:21:13 awesome. but maybe you should have a wireless network instruction for when you need to go see your uncle in bosnia? 23:21:30 :DD 23:22:00 oklopol: my basic idea is you start with a sub-tc loopless language, then add a cycle special form that takes a list (= code) and cyclicifies it 23:22:12 sounds nice 23:22:56 getting this _useful_ is difficult :D 23:30:08 hm maybe i should base it on little inferrant tics in the cyclestream 23:46:49 * ehird drafts objectivist c spec 23:47:50 so 23:48:04 ö, like we say here in finland 23:48:05 -> 23:48:28 (and by that i mean i say, and no one else knows what i mean) 23:59:38 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:59:52 From hq9++ interpreter: 23:59:54 'OO portion of ++ command isn't implemented yet 23:59:54 'this shouldn't have much bearing on program execution... I think 23:59:59 and yet it still implements the accumulator 2009-02-24: 00:05:54 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Reaper cool 00:16:19 Slereah_: !!!!!!!!! 00:16:19 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Esme&action=history 00:16:21 UPDATED 00:16:23 DECEMBER 2008 00:16:25 ESME 2.0 00:16:30 now with PERL SUPPORT 00:17:52 haha 00:18:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:31:22 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:34:55 -!- ehird has set topic: (sb-ext:be-saved-by-lisp-and-live :jesus t) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 00:36:34 http://github.com/fare How the mighty have fallen. Tunes project lead on github ;-) 00:46:24 heh 00:47:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:27:21 -!- GregorR has set topic: »»»http://tunes.org/~nev/logs/esoteric/ «««. 01:27:34 -!- GregorR has set topic: »»» http://tunes.org/~nev/logs/esoteric/ «««. 03:54:08 hm 05:00:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:04:23 what's zelda and pokeman? 05:04:35 wait a minute, even _i_ know that 05:04:44 not that i have played them though 05:05:49 * AnMaster looks for oerjan to explain 05:06:06 it's because swedes are actually living their lives backwards, you see 05:06:19 strange people 05:07:24 highlight 05:07:30 oh btw i *am* 20 05:07:34 * oerjan gasps 05:08:15 "i congratulate you after i shoot you" 05:08:25 no, that would be the finnish method 05:32:35 -!- oerjan has quit ("Coffeis"). 05:32:59 http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1185926215 05:55:40 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 06:50:19 -!- jix has joined. 07:06:55 -!- jix_ has joined. 07:14:57 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:21:12 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:52:39 hmm. 07:53:46 A Turing tarpit is a language that aims for Turing-completeness in an arbitrarily small number of linguistic elements - ideally, as few as possible. <<< i'm pretty sure you could make something that qualifies as a turing tarpit but had tons of commands 07:54:03 ewll 07:54:05 *well 07:54:20 i guess that does say "as few as possible" 07:55:20 which would cover that 07:55:54 -!- sebbu has joined. 07:56:05 oerjan: not that i have played them though <<< not surprising, straight people rarely play pokeman 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:07:27 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 08:22:27 -!- oklopol has joined. 08:36:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 08:42:24 oklopol 08:42:31 i bet you play pokemon 08:42:44 and i bet youre passionate about it too 08:42:46 i've played it a lot 08:42:47 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:42:50 but no not really 08:44:46 heh. did LZW manually for a course exercise 08:44:51 everyone got a different answer :D 08:45:06 (probably needless to point out mine was the only correct one) 08:45:38 LZW? 08:46:46 it's this simple compression algo where you always extend the codeword you used last. 08:46:51 ok 08:46:59 so that you could send it as one symbol next time 08:47:42 so essentially you trivial the trivial to achieve the trivial. 08:54:22 put a trivial in your trivial so you can trivial while you trivial? 08:55:53 trivially yes. 08:56:08 trivially trivialize trivialities 09:01:26 oh. this is the last lecture. 09:02:29 i should probably check these things before coming here, last week i waited two hours for a lecture that had been cancelled 09:04:37 -!- cherez has joined. 09:05:28 -!- cherez has left (?). 09:10:01 blah, i need a larger brain 09:22:52 -!- jix has joined. 09:58:32 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:58:38 -!- oklopol has joined. 09:59:14 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 10:11:36 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:17:59 -!- oklopol has joined. 10:20:50 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 10:28:50 -!- jix has joined. 11:14:06 -!- oklopol has changed nick to okotin. 11:14:08 okokokokokoko 11:23:05 it's because swedes are actually living their lives backwards, you see <-- damn, you revealed the secret! 11:23:58 okotin? 11:24:35 hello AnMaster i'm okotin 11:24:50 why that nick 11:25:03 I mean I know you are oklopol 11:25:13 it means "the thing that okos" 11:25:35 one of our lectures is called "okhotin" 11:25:47 i removed the typo and adapted my nick (for now) 11:37:35 okotin, it isn't like kokain 11:37:40 err spelling in English 11:37:52 cocaine in English 11:37:52 right 11:37:57 kokain in Swedish 11:38:06 wut 11:38:24 "okotin" is quite close to "kokain" when you think about it 11:38:26 bbl 11:39:02 yes yes, very close. 11:39:03 ---> 11:44:59 -!- okotin has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:55:24 -!- okotin has joined. 12:07:37 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 12:25:15 -!- okotin has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 12:38:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:46:09 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 13:01:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:05:22 -!- jix has joined. 13:06:24 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit). 13:09:24 -!- jix has joined. 13:20:13 -!- Hiato has joined. 13:48:04 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:59:20 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:11:31 -!- okotin has joined. 14:11:47 -!- |Synergist| has joined. 14:13:53 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 14:13:53 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:31:05 -!- |Synergist| has left (?). 14:34:16 -!- Sgeo_ has quit ("Leaving"). 14:41:35 lol I wondered, why on earth can't I connect to irc lolol? 14:41:37 then i realised, lol 14:41:39 my domain expired lol ^)^ 14:41:41 ^_^ 14:42:36 -!- ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating..."). 14:42:40 -!- ehird has joined. 14:44:02 03:38:24 "okotin" is quite close to "kokain" when you think about it 14:44:04 scuz me, er, what 14:44:38 :DD 14:44:52 kind of like kangaroo is close to machine. 14:44:57 yeah sorry for advocating drugs 14:44:59 -!- okotin has changed nick to oklopol. 14:45:02 terribly sorry. 14:45:17 ...is this too close to marijuana? 14:45:22 yes. 14:45:24 I wasn't complaining. I was just making an observation :P 14:45:26 bbl 14:46:23 complanations and observations both usually need to make sense, in general 14:46:30 ... 14:46:32 complanations 14:47:12 oh 14:47:44 from "complanate", right 14:47:47 that's what i was going for 14:55:58 -!- fizzie has joined. 14:59:24 complanations? 14:59:42 oklopol, "complanate" sounds French? 15:00:27 "Or another user might be uninterested in Western isolationism, and instead prefer culturally insulting approximation of Eastern languages by choosing to store pathnames in UTF-8, allowing the full range of Unicode text in his pathnames." 15:00:29 Harsh. 15:02:04 ehird, um I don't remember which parts of unicode UTF-8 can't represent... 15:02:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 15:02:13 wasn't it only some unused areas? 15:02:43 ehird, also where was the quote from 15:05:04 The quote pretty much says "choosing UTF-8, which allows the full range of Unicode text". 15:05:27 ah 15:05:40 fizzie, but isn't that allowed anyway? UTF-8 in path names 15:06:26 fizzie, why was it considering UTF-8 "culturally insulting approximation of Eastern languages" 15:08:18 hmm at least the official chinese character encoding uses unicode too... 15:08:26 but it remains compatible to older encodings 15:08:29 I don't really know Eastern languages that well, so I can't really guess. Maybe they've combined some stuff? Although there's the CJK compatibility range and everything. 15:08:30 AnMaster: Han unification. 15:08:32 Google it. 15:08:34 It's why Unicode is uncommon in asia. (UTF-8 moreso, since it's biased heavily towards English...) 15:08:38 fizzie: combined some stuff - han unification 15:08:40 as I said 15:09:15 ehird, hm... 15:10:18 but using a regional encoding that would only encode one language isn't any better :/ 15:11:44 Hot damn, Safari 4 is a ripoff of Chrome. 15:11:46 It's... kind of ugly. 15:11:47 The tabs are in the title bar. Excuse me, Apple, OS X doesn't work like that. 15:12:23 Also the refresh button is in the location bar just like MobileSafari. 15:12:28 What were they smoking. 15:14:12 I guess I will get used to it. 15:14:45 Why are there no tabs in these screenshots? Do you have some? 15:14:56 fizzie: http://www.apple.com/safari/whats-new.html#tabs 15:15:51 Yeah it's really pretty awful, I hope the y fix that. 15:16:01 Goggel's image search founded me silly images; should've navigated straight there, I guess. 15:16:02 http://images.apple.com/safari/images/overlay-windows-1-20090217.png Oh good lord. 15:16:05 It is identical to Chrome. 15:16:17 look at those two buttons to the right. And the placement of the add bookmark button. 15:16:22 That is through and through a chrome ripoff. 15:16:35 Heh, the hype is funny. "Now Safari takes tabbed browsing to new heights — to the very top of the browser window — instantly providing more room for you to enjoy the sites you’re reading." 15:16:36 What's the 'add bookmark' button; I don't speak icon 15:16:58 Deewiant: The + in the address bar 15:17:01 s/speak/read/ would be more appropriate I suppose 15:17:02 exactly how google chrome puts it 15:17:10 fizzie: hahahaha 15:17:12 Right 15:17:22 also, those iicons to the right are in fact the actual google chrome ones 15:17:24 I think 15:17:44 I guess they put the tab bar like this to be slightly different, but it's worse 15:18:01 Just build Chromium and call it Safari, apple :P 15:19:11 ... They ditched webkit? 15:19:16 "Using the new Nitro Engine, for example, Safari executes JavaScript up to 30 times faster than Internet Explorer 7 and more than 3 times faster than Firefox 3 based on performance in leading industry benchmark tests: iBench and SunSpider. 15:19:16 " 15:19:17 Oh 15:19:19 that's just javascript 15:23:32 This is very fast, though. Which is nice. 15:25:47 http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/7zt0o/fuck_you_vista_i_wont_even_live_that_long_pic/c07usxj 15:28:13 For each of the near term reporting requirements (major communications, formula block grant allocations, weekly reports) agencies are required to provide a feed (preferred: Atom 1.0, acceptable: RSS) of the information so that content can be delivered via subscription. 15:28:17 — US Stimulus Bill 15:50:25 http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/eler-highlights-2008 15:51:01 first comic since december 2007. mazing. 16:00:13 oklopol: ping 16:00:18 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:01:58 -!- jix has joined. 16:09:04 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:17:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:29:00 -!- oklopol has joined. 16:56:06 i listen to only Why Cooperation With RMS Is Impossible and no other audial tones 16:58:42 christel. what kind of shitty system does freenode run on. 16:58:58 you can restore to a DB without restarting services. 16:59:03 get a sysadmin. 17:01:18 http://www.geocities.com/therealtroll/people/ <-- only credits rob pike in "special notice". sheesh! 17:02:13 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:02:21 h iais 17:02:24 hi ais523 17:02:28 -!- oklopol has joined. 17:02:32 hi 17:14:04 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:15:32 if I find #lisp friendly, does that mean I've turned into an asshole myself? :D 17:19:47 -!- olsner has joined. 17:20:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:21:45 * oerjan swats AnMaster and olsner -----### 17:22:00 oerjan: oh, get real 17:22:15 BECAUSE I GOT SPAM FROM SWEDEN TODAY 17:24:49 oerjan: not that i have played them though <<< not surprising, straight people rarely play pokeman 17:25:04 i assume this is a pun on the misspelling, or something 17:28:39 I NEED TO CODE 17:30:17 spend most of yesterday merging stuff (in CVS of all things), and most of today answering e-mails with stupid questions and lamenting over stupid misconceptions and ideas 17:30:31 isn't there a cvs-git bridge? 17:31:27 pretty much any version control system can be converted into any other, with various amounts of lost information 17:32:00 yeah, tried it, didn't help a lot... after the git magic merge thing was done, i gave me pieces of subtle garbage in the patches I wanted to merge that shouldn't be there 17:33:49 eventually, I merged half of it from the original sources in another CVS branch and the other half from the old branch 17:34:03 the good old manual 5-way merge 17:37:06 git managed to seriously screw some things up too, like I accidentally used push the wrong way, upon which git completely removed the branch I was working on 17:39:38 I was just lucky I had a recent print-out of the most recent checkin on that branch, just echoing that out into .git/refs/heads/ seemed to actually work 17:40:42 (continues ranting) git seems to make an excellent storage back-end for a version control system, just doesn't have all the horses in the ui stables yet 17:41:04 * olsner pops a vein and falls over and dies 17:41:22 I don't really like git UI-wise 17:43:23 it also has a tendency to do things like ask "[something went wrong,] Have you run git add?", even when it's completely inappropriate (or impossible) to actually to git add 17:43:54 oerjan: i assume this is a pun on the misspelling, or something <<< yes, wasn't that kinda obvious 17:44:08 git's UI is nice, it just takes getting used to 17:44:17 hmm, right, i guess i could've said that about pokemon too 17:44:59 cvs actually is a good ui for cvs, it just has a sucky backend for doing version control 17:45:30 horse shit is a good UI for horse shit, it just has a sucky backend for smell 17:46:15 oerjan, why= 17:46:16 ? 17:46:24 why the swat 17:46:29 [17:22:16] BECAUSE I GOT SPAM FROM SWEDEN TODAY 17:46:33 reading is hard! 17:46:35 especially 2 lines down! 17:46:42 especially when all-caps 17:46:52 yes, so easy to miss 17:46:53 removed by the subconscious troll-filter 17:46:53 well i am used to him being unable to read 2 lines _up_ .... 17:47:21 haha, yeah, 2 lines down is kind of hard, unless you've got some kind of temporal paradox working for you 17:47:44 so if I sent an email to oerjan, would it, platonically speaking, be spam? 17:47:57 somekinda temporal paradox... like reading backwards? 17:48:00 well i did mention swedes living backwards yesterday 17:48:16 ais523: platonically speaking, probably not 17:49:50 what about pragtonically 17:50:21 probkely not 17:51:29 ehird, yes I'm caps blind 17:51:33 it's like colourblind 17:51:44 any lines in all caps look like the background colour to me 17:51:56 WHAT A STUPID DISEASE 17:51:59 ANMASTER IS A POOPY HEA 17:52:00 D 17:52:05 I'M GONNA BECOME A BIOLOGIST 17:52:19 why are you all sending empty lines? 17:52:19 I AM A DUNGBEETLE 17:52:26 OLSNER: FNORD 17:52:28 bbl, going to setup a wireless phone for parents... 17:52:39 ehird: NICE TO MEET YOU MR. SAMSA 17:53:49 AnMaster: do they want it set up so kids cannot use it? :D 17:54:33 oerjan, hah hah 17:55:00 * AnMaster searches for some language he can read in the multi-lingual manual 17:55:23 ah English, that will do 17:55:31 bbl again 17:56:17 Ok fnedbully gradwe gepoly telefony swa bedsky sba dowuto "ON" ... 18:00:34 Gebo antennow sgedaty staciona basiska vu lebdotu growny. 18:08:04 http://s3.amazonaws.com/colourlovers.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/t-mobile_copyright_magenta.jpg 18:45:22 "If you send disparaging E-mails about me to someone else and I find out about it, I can and will pursue defamation charges. I have an excellent lawyer and I rather doubt you do." 18:45:26 Uh... Go fuck yourself. 18:45:42 "If you use other people’s sites, including blogs, to attack me personally, I can and will do all of the same things I’d do if you mailed me personally. I will also lobby to have your comments removed and your commenting privileges permanently banned." 18:45:52 You are a dicksucker. Now get lament or fizzie to ban me. 18:46:35 * oerjan thinks he saw that somewhere 18:46:44 It was on reddit 18:46:54 It's on Joe Clark's site. 18:47:00 yeah but it wasn't recently i saw it 18:47:04 yes 18:47:06 it was an old post 18:47:20 wait, I think he's gay 18:47:23 dicksucker isn't much of an insult 18:48:29 Dear Joe Clark -- 18:48:32 also, i expect that guy has known for a _long_ time that it backfired. so i'd say you _are_ spamming here. 18:48:50 I never done got banned from spamming here before :-D 18:49:29 of course not, we are more civilized here -----### 18:49:30 Hmm. I wonder how to best express myself ... ah! 18:49:42 Joe Clark, get a life and shut up. Stop cluttering the internet with your inane prattle. Go aestivate under a rock somewhere. 18:49:54 You see, your disclaimer is not in the letter of the law, hence is invalid. Therefore, while you may think you have cleverly 18:49:58 found a loophole you are just making an annoyance of yourself. 18:50:05 To be fair, I suppose I must admit the possibility that you were just trying to 18:50:14 get people riled up before renouncing your 'powers', but 18:50:20 common sane and the courts will do that anyway. 18:50:23 In short, feep off and die. 18:50:28 --Yittra, er, ehird. 18:50:37 For all that typing, only ais523, comex and maybe oerjan will get that. 18:50:40 What a waste of time. 18:51:42 So 18:53:51 I killed the channel 18:54:27 it was already dead 18:55:24 nothing sensible said for an hour 18:56:24 oerjan: for the record, _did_ you get that? 18:56:41 why will only they get it? 18:56:53 i don't like it when things i've gotten are taken away from me. 18:57:03 ehird: of course 18:57:13 oklopol: well, it's a rather obscure reference. 18:57:18 the yittra? 18:57:22 the whole thing 18:57:22 er wait, no 18:57:30 ehird: I only /just/ got it 18:57:33 several minutes later 18:57:39 specifically, it's the first reply to an obscure post on a message board used to play an obscure game in 1992 18:57:49 i assumed it was a nomic ref 18:57:51 (oerjan: Lindrum's judgment, from NomicWorld) 18:57:56 oklopol: you win $5 18:58:00 in fake dollars 18:58:01 oh 18:58:08 well not lindrum's judgment 18:58:09 the first reply to it 18:58:25 to quote the original reply that I madlib'd: 18:58:27 look at m4 18:58:29 crazy 18:58:35 bsmntbombdood: I'd rather not do that again 18:58:41 bsmntbombdood: yeah you're pretty fucking insane alright 18:59:02 ** 18:59:02 Get a life, lindrum (Yittra, Sep 28 05:59) 18:59:02 LIndrum, get a life and shut up. Stop cluttering the noticeboard with 18:59:02 your inane prattle. Go aestivate under a rock somewhere. 18:59:02 You see, your judgement is not in the spirit of the game, hence 18:59:04 is illegal. Therefore, while you may think you have cleverly found 18:59:12 a loophole you are just making an annoyance of yourself. To be fair, I 18:59:13 suppose I must admit the possibility that you were just tring to 18:59:14 get the game going before renouncing your 'powers' , but 18:59:15 1015 and 1016 will do that anyway. In short, feep off and die. 18:59:15 hmm 18:59:16 that was more of a flood than I expected 18:59:18 IRC is so much bigger than a web browser. or something. 18:59:34 (i found it funnier without the reference) 18:59:46 :D 18:59:52 maybe I could get a phd in referenceless references 19:00:29 i usually do, references are only fun when they are very vague and complicated; usually i prefer original content 19:00:46 like muffins 19:00:47 oh fuck joe clark emailed me he's kicking down my door 19:00:48 and pies 19:00:49 help help help help help 19:01:02 ehird: wait, what? 19:01:13 JOE CLARK IS GOING TO KILL MEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 19:01:49 superjoe 19:02:03 bah he's just an average joe 19:02:05 gi joe 19:02:34 http://i42.tinypic.com/akjp91.jpg <-- Joe Clark = yasser arafat 19:02:39 well. the colors are on my side 19:02:57 i love how the hat appears when he turns his head 19:03:02 it's like hi there 19:03:04 ...see my hat 19:03:15 hi hat 19:03:41 it's a hat trick 19:03:42 so who's that dude anyway 19:03:58 see above, anmaster 19:04:00 I mean oklopol 19:04:01 http://i41.tinypic.com/nbujqw.jpg 19:04:12 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:05:08 see what above 19:05:14 also i'm not actually asking who he is. 19:05:17 linkz 19:05:18 also he's a pirate 19:05:22 a pirate ninja failure. 19:05:25 i'm *saying* who's that guy 19:05:41 it's a whole different thing. 19:05:49 makes sense yo 19:06:10 it only makes as much sense as you can consume. 19:06:19 oh that actually worked as an insult 19:06:24 that was an accident. 19:07:17 well, this has been a nice battle of minds, but i need to go again 19:07:20 see ya -> 19:07:54 i'm not sure how to react 19:07:55 umm 19:07:57 your mother! 19:59:23 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 20:02:33 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:05:39 if anyone here does common lisp development 20:05:44 don't use asdf-install, use cl-build 20:05:56 (decf gray-hairs) 20:13:08 ais523: if I have a program with its executable and data files in one directory, and it depends on them like that, how would you do it? I'm considering putting it in /usr/local/share// then symlinking the binary in /usr/local/bin/ 20:13:37 that's usual, although I don't quite think that works 20:13:42 as it won't see them as all in the same directory 20:13:49 it does 20:13:52 it follows symlinks 20:13:56 (of $0) 20:13:57 the usual method I've seen is to put the app and all its files in a subdirectory of /usr/lib and use a shellscript to call it 20:14:05 ah, /usr/lib 20:14:06 OK 20:14:07 no idea why people normally put them in /usr/lib not /usr/share though 20:14:11 it makes sense 20:14:17 share is for documents 20:14:38 o 20:14:44 okok? 20:14:51 definitely 20:15:44 err 20:15:47 did i just say that 20:15:54 that was my fingers :| 20:16:09 cut them off before they take over 20:17:40 they'd just grow back again 20:18:27 well so do nails, you'll just have to do it regularly 20:18:35 i don't have nails, i'm a lizard. 20:18:47 ah. 20:19:06 i have mentioned that multiple times 20:19:25 not in this channel i think 20:19:46 but ehird might be able to check that 20:20:24 he might. 20:23:09 i'm pretty sure vista's minesweeper's mine algo has changed from the earlier ones 20:23:26 about every 10th is passable 20:23:38 (without luck, that is) 20:23:43 (also that's an underestimate) 20:24:22 a 20:24:24 http://www.ivona.com/say/Q4fIe7hL 20:25:05 http://www.ivona.com/say/x5C8Y4n0 20:25:49 that's getting pretty good 20:26:12 the messages there are a bit stupid ofc 20:26:45 no, the second one is great 20:26:50 sure it's not just the default options for no. bombs vs. board size which have changed? 20:27:09 hmm. there were no instances of me telling that. 20:27:54 well. i guess it's my remembering the nonexistant thing again. 20:28:11 and oerjan, the options have not changed 20:28:14 at least that much 20:28:22 it's just "harder". 20:28:30 not that minesweeper can be hard 20:28:33 (in practise) 20:29:41 "more impossible" 20:31:44 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 20:33:49 i would have thought the mines were randomly distributed, except that i've read that if the first click is on a mine, it is moved, and that this is to the first vacant spot from the top left iirc. in the original that is. 20:34:45 which means that starting in the top left and then trying the one to the right is slightly more dangerous 20:35:08 oerjan, interesting 20:35:09 or taking the top left second, i guess 20:35:44 well i'm not sure if i recall exactly right but i think the movement _wasn't_ to a random spot 20:35:46 I thought it just randomly selected a game after I clicked the first place 20:35:59 I know that you never click a mine first turn 20:36:01 and tried again if it had a mine there 20:36:05 but I don't know what method it uses to prevent that 20:36:18 ais523, it could differ between implementations 20:36:21 well i'm sure there's a faq somewhere 20:36:30 AnMaster: I'm referring to the Windows XP implementation 20:36:33 ah 20:36:38 ais523, only have kmines here 20:36:47 I've implemented Minesweeper myself, it didn't have the first-turn exemption 20:36:51 it's not a hard program to write! 20:36:57 well true 20:37:00 it is very easy in fact 20:37:15 it wouldn't be hard to do the first-turn exemption with the rest random, either 20:37:25 oerjan, oh? 20:37:30 yeah 20:37:39 you could place it at a random spot 20:37:42 or such 20:37:51 or generate a new random game 20:38:03 you can just fill in after you click, or move it to a random spot (might need retry) 20:38:18 oerjan, yeah.. like what I just said 20:38:19 well that's three options 20:38:25 laggy? 20:38:27 no 20:38:50 but your options didn't exhaust every possibility :D 20:39:19 you could place it at a random spot 20:39:22 or generate a new random game 20:39:25 you can just fill in after you click, or move it to a random spot (might need retry) 20:39:26 err 20:39:37 oerjan, didn't you say that? 20:39:44 so 20:39:45 not quite 20:39:59 oerjan, you mentioned move top left before 20:40:23 my first option means that you don't need to generate anything before clicking, saves work 20:40:25 hmmm what would a minesweeper that allows multiple mines on one spot be like... 20:40:47 jix, um hard since count would be off 20:40:54 but only in one direction 20:40:56 jix, also more explosive 20:41:01 jix, what? 20:41:03 or actually maybe not... maybe generating and then moving is more efficient, since you don't need to check on every placement 20:41:10 oh yes 20:41:26 oerjan, yeah 20:41:53 they should all be equivalent statistically, which the move to top left isn't. 20:41:59 oerjan, and you could all the free spots to an array and then generate a random number as an index into that array 20:42:13 then you don't need to retry 20:42:23 just don't do random() % list_size 20:42:28 that's stupid :P 20:42:29 hm true, since you have to check collisions anyhow 20:42:53 AnMaster: you can do something equivalent without wasting space for the array 20:42:55 ah right so you _have_ to check, might just generate afterward then 20:43:00 jix, guess so 20:43:05 no need to do an array 20:43:15 you generate a random number which is < the number of free spots 20:43:31 jix, and then use that as an index into the nth free spot 20:43:31 yes 20:43:33 of course 20:43:37 iterate through all mines... and if index of mine <= randNum .... radnNum++ 20:43:55 exiting early as soon as mine > randNum 20:44:09 jix: er that's O(n^2) to place the mines, sheesh 20:44:17 oerjan: it's about moving one mine 20:44:20 i mean O(m*n^2) 20:44:22 btw, I have "3D snake" on my phone... anyone done 3D mines yet? 20:44:24 oh? 20:44:27 maybe? 20:44:54 but it is still likely more inefficient than just choose and retry if collision 20:45:03 idea 2: state the yield of the mine 20:45:08 oerjan: but it's worst case is O(n) 20:45:13 so you can survive some mines 20:45:13 like 20:45:20 hitpoints 20:45:29 mine sweeper with hitpoints and powerups! 20:45:29 :D 20:45:35 while retry and collision has a worst case that never exits 20:45:41 *if 20:45:58 oerjan: but it's worst case is O(n) 20:45:59 err 20:46:00 ? 20:46:17 AnMaster: to place one mine into an existing field the worst case is O(n) with my algorithm 20:46:18 but an average case that is excellent unless you have too many mines 20:46:23 jix, yes 20:46:29 so why O(n^2) ? 20:46:32 which was that 20:46:39 if you use mine to place all mines 20:46:41 ah 20:46:48 anyway 20:46:53 um i confused array size and number of mines somewhat 20:46:57 in that case i indeed would generate an array with free spots 20:47:05 and then choose one by random... 20:47:08 get an FPGA and make an O(1) variant in hardware :P 20:47:20 like a sorting network in hardware is O(1) 20:47:27 (iirc) 20:47:39 in time at least 20:47:48 probably way more in space 20:48:49 anyway number of positions is usually small so that O(n) doesn't matter really 20:48:49 cannot be O(1) if the size is arbitrary (which a finite computer cannot handle anyway) 20:49:20 I mean O doesn't matter at small sizes really 20:49:31 a binary search is better than a linear search 20:49:32 however 20:49:51 my tests shows a simple linear search is faster for small data sets 20:49:57 ~50 items 20:49:58 or such 20:50:02 maybe due to cache and such 20:50:11 or optimisation 20:50:15 ais523, yeah 20:50:17 uhm a binary search is very simple to implement efficiently tho 20:50:18 linear searches are easier to optimise, and a tighter loop 20:50:23 they can even be unrolled if necessary 20:50:37 come to think of it, binary search can be unrolled too, but I don't know of a compiler capable of it 20:50:42 whatever you just need some generic way of choosing m objects from n slots without replacement 20:50:44 ais523, yeah it could probably since I was operating on a static const array of a fixed size 20:50:51 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 20:51:17 oerjan, now maybe m > n 20:51:19 :D 20:51:35 error case is error case 20:51:57 really the pigeonhole principle assumes the pigeons are average size... 20:52:09 without food for some time you could stuff more than one in one box 20:52:10 :P 20:58:14 basically you can adopt random shuffle agorithms that generate the sequence sequencially to exit after generating m elements 20:59:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:01:41 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:20:53 [20:42:23] just don't do random() % list_size 21:20:55 fail 21:20:55 oh 21:20:57 you said it's stupid 21:21:13 meta-fail 21:21:23 ehird, for large list sizes yes 21:21:34 no, it's fail because of the behaviour of random() 21:21:39 ehird, that too 21:21:44 specifically, modulo'ing it is retarded 21:21:50 ehird, exactly 21:21:53 I said it was stupid 21:21:58 ywa 21:21:59 *yes 21:22:14 infrrf 21:22:39 *inswws 21:23:28 how are you supposed to use random() then? 21:23:49 the main reason being that it won't be uniform, but also random() might be a very bad PRNG on $TARGET_LIBC 21:23:58 better use your own RNG 21:24:33 olsner, I would recommend against it for any cryptographically sensitive applications at least ;P 21:24:36 hm... 21:25:14 which reminds me, I need to replace random() % 4 in cfunge. I actually had plans to use FMT instead 21:25:16 ;P 21:25:56 well, obviously, you need to use a known cryptographically secure prng, but for things like just generating a random list when you don't care *that* much about the randomness 21:26:22 % powerOf2 is presumably the worst case 21:26:39 then again, maybe not 21:26:45 http://www.math.sci.hiroshima-u.ac.jp/~m-mat/MT/SFMT/index.html 21:27:06 oerjan, err wouldn't % powerOf2 be the most uniform case? 21:27:39 oerjan, assuming RAND_MAX == a power of two 21:27:48 no, because the low bits are what's often broken 21:28:10 oerjan, that sounds silly 21:28:21 in fact, the standard random number generator on one widely-used old version of UNIX alternated even and odd numbes 21:28:24 *numbers 21:28:30 ais523, wow 21:28:39 well 21:28:45 the high-order bits on such generators are more random-acting, though 21:28:48 that's what i referred to i guess 21:29:02 bit shift it to get the middle bits? 21:29:15 or top ones 21:29:19 or whichever you want 21:29:36 mask off and bit shift 21:29:41 should work well 21:29:53 random() returns long int 21:30:08 which means you need to figure out how to do this based on limits.h 21:30:21 LONG_BIT 21:32:24 #if LONG_BIT < 8\n#error "Don't be silly..."\n#endif\nint myval = (random() >> (LONG_BIT - 5)) & 24; 21:32:27 something like that 21:32:40 ais523, oerjan ^ 21:32:46 what do you think of the idea? 21:33:14 or & 3 maybe 21:33:14 that's over the top 21:33:20 if you want two middle bits 21:33:23 ais523, what do you mean? 21:33:42 did I miscalculate? 21:33:45 random() / (RAND_MAX / max_I_want) 21:33:50 is the standard formula 21:34:04 and a lot simpler than what you're trying there, I think 21:34:18 so I meant that you were complicating things more than you needed to be 21:34:23 err 21:34:33 * AnMaster is tired... why does random() / (RAND_MAX / max_I_want) work 21:35:13 it probably isn't quite uniform if max_I_want is not a power of 2 21:35:19 not quite 21:35:23 but you can't get uniform then without rerolling 21:35:35 1> (2 bsl 32) div 4. 21:35:35 2147483648 21:35:49 hm 21:35:51 ah 21:35:54 right 21:35:56 that is why it works 21:35:56 what is that? 21:35:58 Erlang/ 21:36:13 i guess checking if result > max_I_want then rerolling does it 21:36:14 ehird, depends on what your next comment will be 21:36:22 AnMaster: "It looked like lisp at first" 21:36:27 i should name some software something that'll make people never use it. like, "Enron" 21:36:28 or does it 21:36:28 ehird, oh the erlang 21:36:29 also 21:36:40 (div (bsl 2 32) 4) 21:36:43 that would be lispy 21:37:16 s/the/yes/ 21:37:21 no idea how I typoed that... 21:37:21 yes, but it had parentheses, and alphanumeric names for things commonly done as symbols 21:37:26 and the prompt looked lisp-esque 21:37:28 ehird: "Hitler" 21:37:35 ehird, well / is floating point... 21:37:36 oerjan: "Auschwitz" 21:37:56 "The Auschwitz compiler for the Hitler inferral programming language is now released." 21:37:58 ehird, should I google after "Enron"? 21:38:02 AnMaster: yes. 21:38:04 since you said "wants to never use it" 21:38:08 it could be shock site 21:38:09 *infernal 21:38:10 ... 21:38:39 AnMaster: it's not. sheesh. 21:38:54 ehird, idea name it 2goatse1cup 21:39:02 no 21:39:05 yes! 21:39:15 hmm, maybe "The Nigger-Faggot deductive logic system" 21:39:22 GodHatesFags 21:39:25 yep, I think I've cracked it 21:39:45 ehird: brilliant 21:39:55 yeah, I'll sue microsoft 21:40:11 "The Nigger Faggot Corporation, creators of the Nigger Faggot deductive logic system, today sued Microsoft." 21:40:30 Nigger faggot? 21:40:34 "Their spokesman, Faggoty McNigger, had this to say: 'Microsoft is infringing on our intellectual property of "being total douchebags" and "offending everyone".'" 21:40:35 You'll get sued by the GNAA 21:40:40 Slereah_: Shut up jew 21:40:42 ... 21:40:49 Slereah_: i'm the british branch. 21:41:06 Did you watch Gay Nigger from Outer Space? 21:41:08 Like, all of it 21:41:27 is that a real movie? 21:41:29 oerjan: yes 21:41:36 also, not porn. 21:41:37 oerjan, 'fraid so.. 21:41:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gayniggers_from_Outer_Space 21:41:53 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:42:03 * oerjan already found 21:43:01 But DID YOU WATCH IT 21:43:04 [[It is said that in this review, Payne described scenes featuring the protagonist, Gay Nigger Jim, raping a toilet until he explodes, and a musical number entitled "Gay Niggers Eat Pigs and Fly on Penises Made Out of Ham and Brown Ham, Because They're Gay Niggers."]] 21:43:07 You can't be GNAA otherwise 21:43:09 honestly, I think it'd be better if that were true. 21:43:29 Ah yes, that old troll 21:44:21 GNAA sounds like a troll name 21:44:30 It is. 21:44:32 from fantasy, that is 21:44:36 oh 21:44:38 Gay Nigger Association of America 21:44:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Outer_Space btw 21:44:55 * Slereah_ salutes those Internet Superheroes 21:45:05 Slereah_, please ban them if they ever try to attack your irc network 21:45:28 i don't have an IRC network 21:45:35 really I know from experience they don't have an unlimited amount of proxies 21:45:46 [21:45:05] Slereah_, please ban them if they ever try to attack your irc network 21:45:48 hahahahah 21:45:54 stupidest line said all day 21:46:01 ehird, yes indeed 21:46:05 I was being silly 21:46:12 i'm sure 21:46:13 intentional 21:46:21 * ehird rapes a kitten 21:46:24 ^ that was intentional 21:46:34 yes it would have been 21:46:35 ehird : http://jun.2chan.net:81/b/src/1235462364005.jpg 21:46:37 hawt 21:46:56 i see. 21:46:59 Slereah_, should be made into a motivational poster 21:47:09 Slereah_, or a lolkitten image 21:47:16 or both! 21:47:18 The intentions are rather more sinister, AnMaster. 21:47:22 Lolcats are a thing of the past, AnMaster 21:47:28 Slereah_, what!? 21:47:30 They have degenerated in mainstream culture. 21:47:34 Slereah_, oh loldogs? 21:47:40 oh 21:47:44 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers8/funnypicturesyoumaybemisq2.jpg 21:47:44 I see 21:48:06 Slereah_, heh 21:48:12 Slereah_, so what is the current thing then? 21:48:18 how many files do you have in there Slereah_ 21:48:23 Slereah_, all your base is "out" I believe 21:48:32 your site is like a repository of... stuff. 21:48:50 "Mardi 24 juillet 2001, 3eme millenaire." 21:48:51 There are plenty of current things. 21:48:57 "I became a millionaire 24th july 2001" 21:49:06 ehird : It's not really my site nowadays 21:49:17 wut 21:49:17 I use it as a FTP 21:49:24 is my translation correct :DD 21:49:47 No 21:49:49 u r dum 21:49:55 wut dus it rly say 21:50:49 Tuesday 24th july 2001 3rd milleunium 21:50:57 ic 21:50:59 what is the context 21:51:16 I was trying to put online some translations 21:54:26 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 21:59:04 as opposed to Tuesday 24th july 2001 4th millennium 21:59:21 You never know! 21:59:57 well i guess technically the Tuesday has the same problem 22:06:46 Slereah_, 0000002001 ? 22:08:02 what 22:08:45 poll: I want to read a new web comic. Should o go archive reading order of the stick or try to find some other one? 22:08:56 s/ o / I / 22:10:20 no one? 22:10:39 come on... 22:11:15 ooh, read hackles 22:11:20 i like that comic 22:11:23 though nobody's heard of it... 22:11:50 that name *does* sound familiar 22:11:51 * AnMaster googles 22:12:02 http://hackles.org/cgi-bin/archives.pl?request=1 22:12:13 it gets better as it goes. 22:12:15 ehird, read that 22:12:16 like, umm, every other comic. 22:12:18 actually 22:12:20 AnMaster: ha 22:12:22 ehird, but it's dead isn't it 22:12:22 read 1/0 22:12:23 ? 22:12:26 AnMaster: yes, since jan 04 22:12:30 yeah 22:12:36 what was that yeah to 22:12:37 read it all in like 2006 or so 22:12:41 "read 1/0" or 22:12:49 ehird, I think I read part of 1/0 22:13:08 oh yes 22:13:08 1/0's probably my favourite comic, aside from the small part where it seems to start advocating monotheism 22:13:16 ehird, hm 22:13:36 ehird, well I haven't read all of 1/0, I gave up around comic 30 or so iirc 22:13:44 * oerjan doesn't recall that part 22:13:51 30 out of 1000 comics is not very much reading :P 22:13:58 oerjan: the "fourth wall" plotline 22:14:29 of course it _did_ explore the concept of the stupidity of rejecting monotheism if everyone _could_ see evidence of god 22:14:30 link that part 22:14:44 but that's not exactly relevant to the real world 22:14:46 oerjan: near the end it pretty much advocated monotheism 22:15:06 I say this with knowledge of other strong implications Tailsteak is a monotheist, though 22:15:14 ah. 22:15:14 oklopol: I forget the comic numbers 22:15:23 so it's kinda like south park is republican? 22:15:29 *like how 22:15:39 wait, south park is republican? 22:15:41 now this is news to me 22:15:46 i think Slereah_ said something like that 22:16:11 or something else, anyway that they were advocating something anyway 22:16:15 South Park people are libertarians 22:16:18 *-anyway 22:16:19 okay. 22:16:25 libertarianism is hardly republican 22:16:44 republicanism, libertanianism, urophilia, monotheism, who cares 22:16:57 point is clearly they do not feel strongly one way or the other 22:17:26 I'm uranusphilic. 22:17:28 Or something. 22:17:41 wouldn't it be uranophilic? 22:17:50 ehird, haspyphilic? 22:17:53 oklopol: hey that was my comment 22:18:03 haspyphilic? what 22:18:07 ehird, yoy 22:18:09 you* 22:18:10 what 22:18:18 ehird, you are haspyphilic 22:18:24 yeah I heard that 22:18:26 what the fuck does that mean 22:18:33 ehird, can't figure it out? 22:18:41 try to split the string 22:18:42 nope, presumably because your jokes are terrible. 22:18:49 ehird, it isn't a joke... 22:18:57 http://code.google.com/p/haspy/ 22:19:04 any relation? 22:19:07 oerjan, now I didn't know about that 22:19:08 oerjan: and this here is my comment! 22:19:08 oerjan: ooh, sexually attractive. 22:19:20 oklopol: you stole it from me! 22:19:22 http://code.google.com/p/haspy/source/browse/#svn/trunk%3Fstate%3Dclosed 22:19:24 i love vaporware 22:19:27 oerjan, but actually kind of related 22:19:46 ehird, yeah 22:19:57 it's... compelling 22:19:58 comforting. 22:19:59 or something. 22:20:04 "has pee ..why?" -philic 22:20:10 it was my second attempt after checking if "haspys" meant something 22:20:27 so you 22:20:37 like it when you don't know why people have pee i guess 22:20:48 "ha spy" -philic 22:20:52 you like to laugh at spies. 22:20:59 sexually. 22:21:01 yes. 22:21:07 sexual laughter 22:21:18 "H.A.S.P-y"-phillic, where H.A.S.P.Y. = Haskell and Sudo Python | Yes 22:21:20 like "mihihi tickles ;;)" 22:21:25 you like constructing nonsensical pipelines. 22:21:59 rube-goldberg pipelines 22:22:12 hm i guess there's no hyphen 22:22:50 AnMaster: i think we're ready to hear what haspy means. 22:23:14 haskell and python oerjan, but actually kind of related 22:23:19 ehird loves both 22:23:52 oh. so it was *that* related. 22:23:56 oklopol, yes... 22:24:00 that's... rather stupid. 22:24:09 ehird, hapyphilic is harder to say 22:24:10 for one, it wasn't funny... for the other, haskell and python aren't my favourite languages 22:24:10 :P 22:24:12 hah that's _so_ out there, i mean i _knew_ it, er... 22:24:26 ehird, " ehird, it isn't a joke... for one, it wasn't funny..." 22:24:27 well 22:24:31 what did you expect... 22:24:33 if it wasn't a joke, what was it 22:24:42 ehird, an observation 22:24:47 not everything has to be funny 22:24:52 umm, that's not much of an observation 22:25:01 ehird, how so? 22:25:02 umm it's a lie? 22:25:08 *umm, 22:25:12 oklopol, you could debate the truth in it 22:25:18 AnMaster: you're valgrindphillic 22:25:18 certainly 22:25:21 see, you use valgrind sometimes 22:25:25 what do you mean it's not funny 22:25:27 it was AN OBSERVATION 22:25:28 no, not everything has to be funny. some things need to be cried over for days and days. 22:25:32 ehird, nah. I'm valgrindophillic 22:25:35 sounds better 22:25:37 :P 22:25:44 no, it makes it sound more like a gay sex practice. 22:25:49 if that's your thing... 22:25:58 ehird, not the first part no 22:26:04 val-grind-o-phillic 22:26:18 ehird, as long as that is an i and not an a 22:26:27 ... grand? 22:26:32 does "valgrind" come from "wall grinder" 22:26:42 oklopol, no, from Nordic mythology 22:26:47 read their FAQ 22:26:48 valgrind comes from "Val, the Grind-o-Master" 22:26:53 of gay gayness 22:26:56 ehird, read their FAQ 22:27:08 is that where AnMaster got his name? 22:27:13 no, I'm busy joking. 22:27:15 oklopol: yep. 22:27:16 oklopol, http://valgrind.org/docs/manual/faq.html#faq.whence 22:27:19 ah 22:27:22 ehird, you aren't funny 22:27:27 he's "Val's Little Brother, a Grind-o-Master" 22:27:31 incidentally it's not that far off from being a plausible norwegian name 22:27:42 oerjan, http://valgrind.org/docs/manual/faq.html#faq.whence 22:27:58 also http://valgrind.org/docs/manual/faq.html#faq.pronounce 22:28:11 but every Norwegian or Swedish person could figure that out 22:28:20 I guess ehird would need to know it is a short i 22:28:23 heh, for a second there i thought it was the same link a third time for those who weren't highlighted yet :P 22:28:30 darn and i thought it meant value grinder :D 22:28:53 oklopol, oh do you think that is needed? 22:29:51 wow, this lisp compile is taking along time 22:29:59 AnMaster: yes! 22:30:07 over 32595 lines of compiler output as it compiles tons of dependencies and everything 22:30:15 pretty stupid faq btw, doesn't even say what valgrind *is* 22:30:28 maybe it's not asked frequently for some reason 22:30:46 AnMaster: in fact you should probably link it to oerjan again 22:30:47 ehird: taking along time? have it give it back at _once_! 22:30:57 haha 22:30:57 because "oerjan: darn and i thought it meant value grinder :D" is also in the faq 22:31:11 valgrind = valgrind grinder 22:31:17 the val is an abbreviation of valgrind 22:31:18 oklopol: er i read that before saying it 22:31:34 but i also meant it 22:32:41 btw val = battleground, grind = gate 22:32:45 oerjan: 1) i'm joking 2) your mom 3) that's irrelevant because of your face 4) if you'd read it you wouldn't have said "and", you would've indicated somehow that you were part of the majority who thought that, perhaps with one of ithkuil's fine suffices. 22:32:46 "Why I think Bush planned the 2001-09-11 World Trade attacks" 22:32:47 Oh please... 22:33:05 oklopol: teach me ithkuil suffices! 22:34:15 fhtagn! 22:34:39 it's funny how everyone says the people who believe that conspiracy thing are idiots, but no one actually explains the major holes they point out. 22:34:48 i mean i don't care one way or the other, just objectively speaking. 22:34:53 ehird: btw you're away 22:35:01 no i'm not 22:35:13 but /whois gives an away message 22:35:20 also if that was recent, yeah, maybe the subject could be dropped already 22:35:31 ehird: you are away, your bouncer is lying to you 22:35:32 * oerjan swats ehird -----### 22:35:44 ais523: I unawayed, silly. 22:35:48 ehird: i don't know any of them off the top of my head brain. 22:37:13 oklopol: what about the other brain? 22:38:52 you're closer to my fingers, why don't you ask them 22:38:57 directly 22:39:12 38612 lines of output... 22:39:14 hello fingers, is oklopol taking his medications properly? 22:39:29 YOU TAKLIN TOMMEE? 22:39:35 oh dear. 22:39:58 hm i conclude the fingers must be taking too much of something 22:40:10 maybe the medication is clogging in them 22:40:23 probably. 22:40:27 they look kinda swollen 22:41:23 ; compilation unit finished ; caught 10 WARNING conditions ; printed 3273 notes 22:41:28 FINA-FUCKING-LY! 22:42:40 ehird: what were you compiling? 22:42:58 I just did: CL-USER> (require :weblocks-demo) 22:43:03 but i'd just installed weblocks 22:43:09 and its 5 bajillion dependencies 22:43:12 so it compiled them all 22:43:19 took about half an hour 22:44:53 alien technology is built for those with patiecne 22:44:56 *patience 22:48:28 patiecne is an especially painful form of acne 22:50:07 Please add '/Users/ehird/Code/oracle/oracle/' to asdf:*central-registry* before you proceed. 22:50:08 ugh, really? 22:50:14 I have to do that for every app? 22:50:16 Grumble.. 22:53:13 back 22:53:17 oklopol, right 22:53:24 http://valgrind.org/docs/manual/faq.html#faq.whence http://valgrind.org/docs/manual/faq.html#faq.pronounce 22:54:12 pretty stupid faq btw, doesn't even say what valgrind *is* <-- err it does that right at the main page... 22:54:36 of the faq? 22:54:52 * oerjan hands AnMaster the swatter 22:54:59 :P 22:55:08 oklopol, not of the faq 22:55:11 * AnMaster swats oklopol 22:55:17 :(( 22:55:21 hearts is fun 22:55:21 oklopol, like at http://valgrind.org/ 22:55:22 * oerjan takes it back 22:55:32 look how fun 22:55:34 <3 22:55:35 where most people end up *FIRST* 22:55:36 <3<3<3<3 22:55:37 <3<3 22:55:41 oklopol, nah that isn't fun 22:55:45 IS TOO 22:55:46 =2 22:55:47 it is like anti-fun 22:55:58 nuf of that 22:55:59 oerjan, I still hold references to it! 22:56:20 * AnMaster gets one using a reference and then swats another reference 22:56:30 also it's visually pleasing 22:56:42 almost like a real heart. 22:56:43 oklopol, depends on font 22:56:48 * oerjan uses a copying gc to move the swatter, making all external refs broken 22:57:01 oerjan, ah but your updates 22:57:06 like a handle 22:57:07 so fail 22:57:12 huh? 22:57:42 oerjan, I can just use oerjan.ResolveHandle(hSwatter); 22:57:51 didn't know you ran win32... 22:58:17 or why is there otherwise an Ex variant? 22:58:23 bah 22:58:26 AnMaster: well i meant the actual game, but sure font too 22:58:37 oklopol, what game? 22:58:45 umm 22:58:49 blackjack. 22:58:56 * AnMaster googles 22:58:59 xD 22:59:02 oh my god 22:59:04 you're awesome. 22:59:04 AnMaster: WORDLY KNOWLEDGABLE 22:59:08 *WORLDLY 22:59:11 ehird, no I'm not 22:59:11 i was like 22:59:17 AnMaster: but you _do_ know the number of hairs on rms's beard. 22:59:17 I never claimed to be 22:59:23 ehird, in fact no 22:59:29 "lol you can't be serious? well. let's take a game everyone knows then" 22:59:31 tell me 22:59:32 does AnMaster live in a faraday cage? 22:59:42 ehird, I know what that is 22:59:46 :P 22:59:51 of course you do: you see one every day. 22:59:52 oklopol, um, chess? 22:59:53 because you live in one. 23:00:05 AnMaster: blackjack is as well-known as chess 23:00:22 ehird, nah this house is not using a metal frame, it uses logs in the core 23:00:34 oklopol, I actually heard the name before 23:00:40 I just had no clue about details 23:00:46 I never bothered to find out 23:00:52 okay 36 vs. 43 well-knownity points 23:01:53 ehird, did you know most computer cases act as faraday cages? I bet you do. 23:02:20 I ran a computer without a case 23:02:33 ehird, yes and there are completely plastic cases too 23:02:52 I imagine this iMac is just plastic. 23:03:00 hm maybe 23:03:07 ehird, I know my PC case is mostly steel 23:03:17 Mac Pros are metal through and through 23:03:20 even the ousdi 23:03:21 outside 23:03:22 and I seen lots of PC cases that were plastic with a steel box inside 23:17:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 2009-02-25: 00:00:32 -!- [helloworld] has joined. 00:00:44 <[helloworld]> hello, how to write modulo in Brainfuck 00:00:52 <[helloworld]> a modulo b 00:01:33 it's on bf algos pag 00:01:33 e 00:01:34 iirc 00:01:37 http://esolangs.org 00:01:47 grmbl wiki is slow 00:02:21 <[helloworld]> i mean something like if i type Z from keyboard it should return me A 00:02:45 <[helloworld]> so it's modulo, isn't it? 00:03:22 that's a little ... vague 00:03:32 [helloworld]: no. 00:03:37 do you know what modulo is ? 00:03:49 <[helloworld]> yes 00:04:16 are you sure? 00:04:23 but it's on the wiki, if you are 00:04:41 <[helloworld]> i could do modulo 26 + 36 00:05:02 <[helloworld]> or something like that, i don't remember ascii values now 00:05:36 <[helloworld]> so maybe whats the trickier method to do that: read char if it's Z return A, otherwise return that char? 00:06:00 Add a constant, take it modulo 26, add another constant. 00:06:42 <[helloworld]> kerlo, yes, i meant that, but ehird said it's wrong way 00:06:54 <[helloworld]> am i right? 00:07:07 wut. 00:07:11 <[helloworld]> maybe it's better method using smething like if()? 00:07:16 what you're saying doesn't make much sense, really, but for {Z->A;x->x}, modulo would work. 00:07:17 To be precise: add 14, take it modulo 26, add 65. 00:07:38 it would? 00:07:46 <[helloworld]> ehird, do you think is better way to solve that? 00:07:59 [helloworld]: you're meaning rot-N of letters? that's not the same as modulo but modulo can be used to implement it. in bf that's probably overkill though. 00:08:00 Just check its value 00:08:00 [helloworld]: my modulo method works perfectly fine if you know the input is A-Z. 00:08:06 [helloworld]: try this 00:08:20 err, whatever 00:08:20 kerlo: huh? 00:08:20 just if it 00:08:33 hmm 00:08:40 well there's a 1/26 chance you're right 00:08:50 <[helloworld]> kerlo, ik now that but i have problems with codein' modulo in BF 00:08:57 No, the chance is decidedly greater. :-P 00:08:59 its on the wiki 00:09:00 i just told you that 00:09:12 ehird: the wiki is practically down 00:09:15 kerlo: oh was 14 for adding one? 00:09:17 no it's not 00:09:18 works fine for me 00:09:22 oklopol: yes. 00:09:27 right, right. 00:09:30 i couldn't get the page a moment ago 00:09:39 [helloworld]: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#Divmod_algorithm 00:09:43 i assumed rot-13, because clearly you'd add 14 to rotate by 13. 00:09:45 just ignore the div result 00:10:00 <[helloworld]> oklopol, so my algorithm will be do something like rot-1 00:10:07 no 00:10:10 for all other letters, it'd id 00:10:17 all you're doing is s/Z/A/ 00:10:47 <[helloworld]> rot-1 for {A,B,C....Z} 00:10:56 [helloworld]: kinda trivial to do that special case, just inc, and check if z+1 00:11:28 <[helloworld]> oklopol, how to code it? 00:11:31 ...you can do an if right? 00:11:43 <[helloworld]> but how in BF? 00:11:50 is that a no? 00:12:02 oklopol is so funny 00:12:08 :| 00:12:14 i'm not trying to be 00:12:21 it's a no, yes. 00:12:23 i didn't know what he was referring to. 00:12:24 <[helloworld]> i have been searching if condition if brainfuck but really can't find :/ 00:12:32 right, so that's your prob 00:12:38 just check the algo page or think about it a bit 00:13:04 one solution is to use one bit of extra state info to get the loop to be done just once 00:13:04 <[helloworld]> ok, thanks a lot, i gona read it and try to code it ;) cya 00:13:09 omg oklopol 00:13:10 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7zip9/i_was_reading_through_some_old_python_mailing/c07umsq 00:13:13 higher order functions 00:13:17 in ms dos 00:13:19 batch 00:13:19 files 00:13:22 -!- [helloworld] has quit ("MegaIRC v3.97 http://ironfist.at.tut.by"). 00:13:26 functional dos. 00:13:50 anyway ehird i don't really see how you can nag about my not being sure what he meant after being a jackass to him until that point 00:14:05 or maybe you actually didn't get him, dunno, same thing. 00:14:07 i was being a jackass? news to me. 00:14:18 he wasn't stating his problem clearly. i told him this. 00:14:27 YEAH WELL YOUR MUM 00:14:34 you see i'm fucking pissed at myself atm. 00:14:39 why 00:14:46 and because i'm also very tired, i can't separate you from me. 00:14:50 because we're one of a kind 00:14:52 well 00:14:53 you know 00:14:55 should do 00:14:57 and i play. 00:15:01 hearts 00:15:05 it's a great game 00:15:40 oklopol; so are you green 00:16:39 shall i assume the literal sense? 00:18:16 well anyway, i'm green in all senses and nonsenses 00:18:22 and now i'm really going 00:18:29 and my computer is so hot it hurts my lap 00:18:36 ~~~> 00:19:20 Are you hot in the lap, oklopol? <3 00:20:35 ehird, there? 00:20:41 yes 00:20:45 ehird, I don't get 1/0 strip 130... 00:20:50 what is "jar breeze" 00:20:58 google wasn't helpfulk 00:21:00 helpful* 00:21:18 Either nonsense or a reference to a contemporary comic circa 2001. 00:21:24 Which I have no idea. 00:21:44 ah 00:22:05 AnMaster: it refers to a jar mentioned in one of the very first comics 00:22:13 oerjan, oh that jar... 00:22:18 Well, x is a contemporary of x... 00:22:20 which indeed is taken from another comic 00:22:25 oerjan, oh? 00:22:28 I never understood it 00:22:31 the jar 00:22:56 the jar and barnacle jones (iirc) was stolen from another comic 00:23:02 as the very first characters 00:23:16 oerjan, yeah I didn't get barnacle jones... 00:23:19 (well the jar wasn't a character) 00:23:34 AnMaster: dude, read the annotations 00:23:38 they pop up every few strips 00:23:41 annotations? 00:23:43 oh ok 00:23:51 AnMaster: you are reading the undefined.net/1/0/ version right 00:23:59 ehird, yep 00:24:04 didn't notice annotations 00:24:11 they appear right below the comic :P 00:24:19 for barnacle: 00:24:20 Check out this comic for an explanation of "Barnacle" Jones' origins! 00:24:20 I have yet to get the authour's explicit permission to use this strip this way. If anyone knows how I can get in touch with him, please help! 00:24:23 ehird, above the buttons? 00:24:25 the link: http://www.undefined.net/1/0/history.gif 00:24:26 AnMaster: yep 00:24:36 oh I never noticed it 00:28:46 * oerjan is a bit sorry for cracking Puzzlang 00:28:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:29:10 (see wiki) 00:29:49 oerjan, err? 00:30:24 >_< 00:30:44 it's a new language, posted today 00:31:50 which the inventor said was almost impossible to program, but it isn't. 00:32:06 unless i messed up my bf translation 00:33:05 oerjan: bad oerjan! 00:33:33 * oerjan swats himself -----### 00:35:10 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 00:39:53 If I understand correctly, it's easy to decrement a whole bunch of times and then do something. 00:40:19 Just alternate between blank lines, lines containing nothing but -, and lines that actually contain useful stuff. 00:41:29 yep, and then the rest of it is to note that a sufficient large triangle can increment 00:45:59 Indeed. 00:49:13 hm it is also easy to do several useful things on one line, since all the decrements are done on the previous line 00:53:18 Don't call something difficult unless you invented it three years ago, it's simple, and still nobody knows whether it's Turing-complete or not. :-) 00:58:25 * kerlo goes through all the languages older than /// in [[Category:Unknown computational class]] and tries to determine whether they're Turing-complete or not 01:06:17 * kerlo dismisses 3D as ill-defined despite having an interpreter 01:07:26 And now I'm feeling sick, so I'm going to go take a placebo. 01:14:34 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 02:07:58 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:15:02 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 03:20:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:20:14 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 03:51:46 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:02:42 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 05:18:28 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 05:20:34 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 05:22:11 G'night all 05:22:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:32:56 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:13:03 Now that I've started hosting my projects at codu, my barrier for starting a new project has gotten so low that I start stupid projects I'll never finish. 07:33:58 -!- jix has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:08:23 -!- olsner has joined. 08:25:22 -!- fungot has joined. 08:34:19 -!- Slereah has joined. 08:46:31 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:05:22 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:09:19 GregorR: welcome to the club of the cool 09:30:39 actually i just have a todo list nowadays. 09:31:16 used to have a programming projects folder, but that was ...suboptimal. 09:31:24 well okay naturally i have that too 09:31:39 but anyway. frogs. 10:06:31 frogs?! 10:06:32 like... 10:06:34 french people? 10:06:59 i have a programming folder inside my projects folder. 10:09:16 yes i do something like that too 10:09:34 actually i split by programming language, which is stupid imo. 10:09:38 i'd never do that if i were me 10:10:44 my projects folder: blog stuff, conlangs, conworlds, cyberbrains, efc archives, fashion, formal memetics, iptv shows, linguistics, megacities, philosophy, political writing, programming, sinogram fonts, t-shirts 10:11:53 inside programming: antigravity, ectoplasm, evolutionary algorithms, human-language like pl, linguistics db, lisp machine, misc javascript, oomysql, reactance, teaching js 10:15:31 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 10:23:50 fashion? 10:24:03 yes 10:24:20 pics ive saved from various sources that embody certain stylistic elements that i want to experiment with 10:24:25 (...are you gay or something?) 10:24:32 :D 10:24:42 huge homofag 10:24:57 but _I_ atleast dont play pokemon! 10:25:59 i'll poke anything that has six tails 10:26:17 * psygnisfive pokes oklopol 10:26:21 teach me finnish 10:26:53 i don't really play pokemon, i thought i'd finish one of them at some point, because all my finnirl friends were playing it 10:27:02 but i fucked up all the save files like 10 times 10:27:07 well no, dont, you probably dont understand finnish grammar :p 10:27:11 so i just removed it 10:27:18 "understand" 10:27:26 you probably dont! 10:27:30 i don't even understand what your understanding is. 10:27:50 you obviously speak finnish, but thats not the same as knowing the grammar. 10:28:10 what's "knowing the grammar"? i know the rules. 10:28:24 but i know them in english too, that apparently isn't "knowing the grammar" 10:28:30 well, you can speak it, sure 10:28:32 but i mean like 10:28:58 could you explain to me what tree transformations are going on in the production of a finnish sentence? 10:29:00 probably not! 10:29:11 i definitely couldn't 10:29:19 yeah. 10:31:08 (but i do know more than pretty much any non-linquist you'll find here [if you allow me to lie a little]) 10:31:21 {i don't actually know that, it's just my experience} 10:31:32 10:31:34 ::nod:: 10:31:36 but like 10:32:04 could you give me a fairly detailed account of nominal morphology and the times when the various morphs are used 10:32:07 probably not eh 10:32:49 hmm 10:33:16 i do have something to say about that, but nothing fairly detailed, i think i know the big picture about that if i understood the q. 10:34:30 should probably study that, the problem is i hear the introductory courses are hell, teaching trees and all that to people who liked writing pretty essays in high school. 10:34:54 eh 10:35:07 its not that bad but a lot of people dont understand what theyre getting themselves into 10:35:14 linguistics is NOT 10:36:10 do realize i haven't actually taken linguistics courses, and the guy who i heard this from has a tendency to leave the lecture because of something the lecturer said that he considered too trivial. 10:36:25 (i do that too tho) 10:36:31 lol 10:36:52 it's the god i'm wasting my time here reflex 10:37:41 (i don't know about you but in our uni it's pretty much standard practise to leave whenever you want to) 10:38:01 hm well its considered rude here 10:40:01 well naturally some lecturers may give you the evil eye if you make too much noise, but attendance is not compulsory, so. 10:40:41 not really considered rude here, at least among me. 10:40:49 its not compulsory here, usually, tho some profs factor attendance into grades 10:41:41 our courses are usually entirely about the exam, and you can get extra points for exercises or projects. 10:42:26 hm 10:45:36 exercises are usually compulsory to some percentage though. 10:45:43 yah. 10:46:03 so in practise there's a lot of compulsory attendance. 10:47:29 (also this is just the it department, the others are much less "free") 10:47:44 *-" 10:47:46 *-" 10:47:56 hm. 10:49:34 BW(BC). 10:49:42 BW(BC)? 10:50:02 yeah it means you're a hummingbird 10:50:08 :D 10:50:09 cuz ya hum. 10:50:32 * psygnisfive flutters around, hovering occasionally 10:51:26 "deadline 3, computation time 6" 10:51:32 something doesn't look right 10:51:34 che? 10:52:21 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:52:36 ayo migomipo 10:55:22 Hi psygnisfive 11:12:25 byeeee 11:12:26 -> 11:31:09 bye okolove 13:06:17 -!- Hiato has joined. 13:08:07 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:09:25 -!- dbc has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:13:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:14:15 -!- dbc has joined. 13:44:38 -!- jix has joined. 14:26:05 -!- impomatic has joined. 14:26:41 my shared ip was banned again :-( 14:58:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:59:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:48:00 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:34:34 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:36:09 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:58:29 err 16:58:37 how do you escape a ? in a URL? 16:58:46 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:59:03 web archive is acting up because of it.... 17:01:00 ah found it 17:11:17 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1"). 17:12:46 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:16:06 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:26:30 hrrm oerjan not here... 17:40:04 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 18:03:42 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:37:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:41:53 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit). 18:44:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:48:55 hrrm oerjan not here... 18:48:59 IS TOO 18:52:09 OH NO 18:52:31 * oerjan hurriedly checks IWC 18:52:42 oerjan, hi 18:52:52 ho 18:53:05 oerjan, checked IWC? 18:53:24 I think IWC jumped the frog when the universe exploded 18:53:27 really 18:53:37 in case that was what you were going to ask 18:53:55 ? 18:54:03 well it jumped the shark a long time ago 18:54:13 oerjan, yes in the mythbuster theme iirc 18:54:27 point is, I don't think it is as funny as the early strips any more 18:54:32 it is doing an xkcd 18:54:42 well not exactly 18:54:45 but very close 18:55:25 i'm not sure i agree 18:55:39 really? 18:55:47 the featureless mountains were a nice touch :D 18:57:22 well it is a bit long-winded 18:58:41 yeah 18:58:54 get normal universe back before mid-March please.. 18:59:34 oh you mean kinda like *your mom* 19:06:16 also "jumping the frog" was kinda funny after reading where the term comes from 19:06:47 then again, what isn't these days 19:16:19 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 19:28:03 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:51:01 -!- olsner has joined. 20:31:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:39:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:05:44 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:06:00 -!- oklopol has joined. 21:57:46 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 22:09:49 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 22:35:34 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 22:41:03 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 22:48:43 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:04:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:18:58 fucking wiki locking up just as i'm saving :< 23:19:39 apparently insulting it helps. 23:20:35 can you say the f word on irc? :| 23:20:46 it's been done before, i'm sure 23:21:17 * oklopol checks 23:22:01 hmm. 23:22:19 i'm getting a deja vu from when i searched for "and" once. 23:23:07 by a remarkable coincidence, "and" has never been used (although it has been mentioned) 23:23:38 ah, they were all instances of "brainfuck" 23:23:45 nope 23:24:00 nope? 23:24:04 i am sure ehird used -fucking- as an infix the other day 23:24:25 yes but he used -brain- in an earlier message 23:24:42 so it was really a brainfuck circumfix, you say? 23:25:00 more like amongfix 23:25:09 a (not very) interesting speed test: 23:25:11 dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null& pid=$! ; sleep 30; kill -USR1 $pid; sleep 1; kill $pid 23:28:30 * oerjan supposes correcting bad language _is_ appropriate for a Playground program 23:30:13 STOP YOUR FUCKING CURSING ON IRC OR I FUCKING SWEAR I'LL TEAR OFF YOUR GOD DAMN HEAD AND SHIT IN YOUR SKULL YOU MOTHERFUCKERS 23:30:36 * GregorR takes a bow. 23:31:25 hey that was kinda ironic 23:31:33 not really. 23:31:41 too obvious for that. 23:32:00 yes, it was probably something deeperer 23:32:52 it was mock-ironic, i guess 23:33:29 err 23:33:30 no 23:33:33 deeper. 23:33:34 post-mock-ironic 23:33:35 not to be confused with macaronic 23:34:02 there is no post mock-ironic. that's the end of humor. 23:34:11 post-humorous comedy 23:34:13 it dies there, horribly. 23:34:32 oerjan, yeah now what was that quote... 23:34:35 * AnMaster tries to remember 23:34:42 probably from before I began logging irc 23:34:45 * oerjan has no idea 23:34:55 what quote, i can search again 23:35:02 i'm a searcher boy 23:35:03 oklopol, not in #esoteric 23:35:05 other channel 23:35:09 #init probably 23:35:11 i can search there too. 23:35:17 this was from before my time in #esoteric 23:35:34 ironically, the quote was lost 23:36:25 also not to be confused with macarenic. hm that _might_ be an even later stage. 23:36:33 sort of zombie humor 23:36:58 /mnt/cdrom $ bzgrep -i alice */*.bz2 | grep -i post 23:37:02 lets see if that helps 23:37:07 macarenic? 23:37:07 since it didn't seem to be #init 23:37:15 oklopol, ? 23:37:23 oklopol: lots of singing and dancing 23:37:25 AnMaster: i'm just suggesting. 23:37:28 oklopol, GRAIINS 23:37:38 oops 23:37:46 oerjan: so from the song, just wondered about the zombies 23:37:48 well 23:38:01 it is quite possible the quote is too old for me to have a log of it 23:38:09 oklopol: that was an afterthought. after death, that is. 23:38:32 I began IRC in 2004 or so, my logs go back to 2005 23:38:34 AnMaster: perhaps it was a past life regression, from ancient greece or egypt 23:38:35 so 23:38:45 could very well be 2004 23:38:58 + bzgrep takes ages 23:39:04 oerjan: ohhoh! 23:39:26 i guess that would be mummy humor 23:40:04 oerjan, your mummy is fat? 23:40:17 hey i get that :DDDDDDDD 23:40:31 no, just dead. also, she was never fat, very skinny. 23:40:41 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:40:45 oerjan, oh ok 23:45:37 anyway iirc it was like this 23:47:33 someone were discussing a post-modern book, and someone mentioned something about post-humorous... And they found some persons in books that were post-modern or post-humours. Then someone asked what you were if you were post-modern AND post-humorous. Answer: Dead. 23:47:50 can't find the full (and funny) quote 23:48:34 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 23:49:03 posthumous, that is 23:49:29 oerjan, no 23:49:33 post-humorous 23:49:39 *whoosh* 23:49:52 oerjan, posthumous is something else 23:49:54 post-hummus 23:49:56 and an existing word 23:50:27 *whoosh* 23:51:19 GregorR: well if you're also from the maghreb area... 23:51:29 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:51:36 -!- oklopol has joined. 23:51:46 um wait, levantine 23:52:16 lots of post-hummus people in gaza these days 23:52:28 wth... 23:52:35 firefox was using around 2 GB memory 23:52:40 explains all the swap trashing 23:52:44 I have 1.5 GB RAM 23:56:29 Goooo Firefox 8-D 23:56:57 Sounds like Trac 0.11 8-D 23:57:02 GregorR, err? 23:57:07 I used trac 0.10 before... 23:57:12 don't know 0.11 well 23:57:17 what about it? 23:57:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:57:38 I had Trac 0.11 on codu.org for a long time, it routinely chewed up all my memory and killed everything while responding to queries in a timely "I'll get to it when I feel like it" sort of way. 23:57:39 -!- Slereah has joined. 23:57:42 I finally downgraded. 23:58:07 GregorR, hope you reported this as a bug? 23:58:14 a REGRESSION BUG 23:58:16 It's been reported numerous times. 23:58:20 GregorR, and? 23:58:47 And they say "Trac 0.11 uses a new rendering engine which takes a bit more memory. In most situations the difference shouldn't be noticeable, and we choose to ignore your situation." 23:58:53 (Not in so many words :P ) 23:58:58 ah 23:59:08 but it is often noticeable? 23:59:34 It was /always/ absurdly slow, so yeah. 23:59:55 IMO all apps should have upper limits on how much they will allocate 2009-02-26: 00:00:00 formal upper bounds 00:00:07 not just for the sorting algorithm 00:00:12 but for the whole app 00:00:25 They do. It's 2^{word size} :P 00:00:34 hah. hah. 00:01:17 GregorR, seriously, pre-OSX had a good thing then, you could know for sure it would keep within limits 00:01:37 each app would have a minimum and maximum size set in the info box for the program file 00:01:48 the OS would give it something between those when the app was started 00:02:05 to change you would have to quit the app, open the info box and change the values, start the app again 00:02:16 OOM ahead of time 00:02:17 wow 00:02:25 that indeed does sound pretty stupid! 00:03:02 oklopol, talking about Mac OS 6-9 (and probably older ones, but never used them. and yes it is technically System 6, System 7, Mac OS 8, Mac OS 9...) 00:03:21 oklopol, it meant you never ran into swap trash 00:03:31 of course you had to reboot to change virtual memory size 00:03:36 which is even sillier 00:03:42 doesn't windows also force it? 00:03:45 for the page file 00:03:56 while linux can change any time you want 00:04:13 actually not sure about page file size in Windows 00:04:15 oklopol, tell me ^ 00:04:24 i don't know it 00:04:24 iirc you use it? 00:04:29 page file size that is 00:04:42 i also don't know whether you need to reboot to change the size of virtual memory 00:04:47 why would i :| 00:04:49 well pretty sure you need(ed) to restart in windows to change the size 00:04:58 why would i change it? 00:05:12 and Mac OS virtual memory == Windows pagefile, == *nix swap 00:05:40 if they chose it badly, i'll just buy a new computer. 00:05:45 ... 00:05:48 -_- 00:06:04 don't be stupid 00:06:43 if i need to look beneath the abstraction, the abstraction is bad. 00:07:35 i try to keep the abstractions i make and the abstractions i use separate 00:09:39 * AnMaster wonders if he should optionally support using hugepagetlb thing for allocation in cfunge 00:10:05 translation lookaside buffer? 00:10:10 if tlb cache currently has issues with overflowing it could help speed a bit 00:10:18 oklopol, yeah it allows you to get larger pages 00:10:28 than the standard 4096 byte ones 00:10:32 i know what it is 00:10:35 # ls /sys/kernel/mm/hugepages 00:10:35 hugepages-2048kB 00:10:38 oh 00:10:42 no that's not what a tlb is 00:10:48 oklopol, indeed not 00:11:13 /usr/src/linux/Documentation/vm/hugetlbpage.txt 00:11:17 oklopol, ^ 00:11:20 point is 00:11:26 a TLB is used to find a page 00:11:47 too many pages and the cache can't fit all pages used by app 00:12:00 oh hugepagetlb does that 00:12:09 right, misunderstood you 00:12:13 thus you could save some tiny amount of time by using fewer, but larger, pages 00:12:30 oklopol, I will use oprofile tomorrow to check tlb misses 00:12:30 yeah makes sense 00:12:33 iirc it can check for it 00:12:40 to see if it is worthwhile at all 00:13:17 ehird. Look above. Insane micro optimising ^ 00:13:18 ;P 00:13:54 anyway i don't really care for that kinda optimization 00:13:56 hmm 00:14:14 oklopol, well really what would be useful I guess is changing stack direction 00:14:19 currently it grows up 00:14:26 copying strings to it means reversing 00:14:39 that is what the current bottleneck is 00:14:56 however making it grow down introduces other issues 00:15:08 like growing it not being a simple realloc() 00:15:08 but not because it's micro-optimization, caching just doesn't fit my mental calculation model. maybe because the usual computation models don't have anything ilke it. 00:15:35 s/calculation/computation/ 00:16:05 oklopol, that is the difference between "theoretical model" and "model useful in real life" 00:16:43 oklopol, still I'd say making string copying not have to swap string direction... 00:16:46 would help a lot 00:16:46 meh, no asymptotical difference 00:16:53 really 00:16:59 about 4-8 times faster 00:17:03 depending on CPU 00:17:10 because you can copy in word size 00:17:16 also less cache misses 00:17:22 and 00:17:27 you could SIMD it 00:17:38 *yawn*, let the compiler worry about that 00:17:39 to get 128-bit copying on x86/amd64 00:17:51 oklopol, I will, but it can't do it atm 00:17:54 oh simd! 00:17:56 because stack grows up 00:17:59 now that's something i do like. 00:18:03 and strings need to be *REVERSED* 00:18:08 when pushed on stack 00:18:13 which means byte by byte copy 00:18:22 which sucks 00:18:28 *WHY* do they need to be reversed? 00:18:47 oklopol, because they are 0"gnirts" in cfunge and my stack implementation grows upwards 00:18:56 which is what I want to change 00:19:00 so it grows downwards 00:19:11 so I can just memcpy() or such 00:19:58 oklopol, that is why 00:20:03 any questions? 00:20:07 no not really 00:20:34 wait 00:20:36 that quote 00:20:42 was ehird... in #esoteric 00:20:46 2008-03-21/FreeNode-#esoteric.log.bz2:okt 31 23:20:13 ah yes -- quoting alice in wonderland. The post-ironic hippy way to be cool on the internet. 00:20:51 AnMaster: What is the big question about the meaning of life, the universe and everything? 00:21:01 oerjan, I don't know :P 00:21:13 well it was worth a shot 00:21:34 i can't smell people 00:21:54 nov 06 02:39:21 "We're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know that I am mad?" asked Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." 00:22:00 oklopol: maybe there aren't any nearby. you were a lizard, right? 00:22:15 okt 31 23:19:45 "We're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know that I am mad?" asked Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." 00:22:16 that too 00:22:27 oerjan, you were obsessed with that line? 00:22:34 okt 31 23:20:13 ah yes -- quoting alice in wonderland. The post-ironic hippy way to be cool on the internet. 00:22:39 oerjan: i mean i don't have the whole sense. of smelling people. 00:22:54 AnMaster: it fits #esoteric so well 00:23:02 quoting Terry Pratchett -> no, that's the post-hippy ironic way 00:23:17 post-hippy post-ironic way -> killing yourself 00:23:40 holy shit 00:23:42 2:23 00:23:43 :DD 00:23:49 oklopol, true 00:23:53 i have 00:23:57 too much stuff to do 00:24:08 should probably 00:24:09 liek 00:24:11 go. 00:24:23 I have stuff to do tomorrow morning. For values of morning in the range like 11:00 00:24:27 to 12:00 00:24:33 so yeah I better go to sleep 00:24:44 oklopol: your haiku misses the metric a bit 00:24:44 night 00:25:02 oerjan: i know 00:25:05 ^ fixed 00:26:01 okay 00:26:07 algebra time now, i think 00:26:08 -> 00:26:21 err 00:26:42 oerjan, what is the name for stuff like hexameter and pentameter and such 00:26:48 "versmått" in Swedish 00:26:51 but in English? 00:28:07 btw: Iambic pentameter > haiku 00:28:07 "meter" i think 00:28:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meter_(poetry) 00:28:55 Blank verse :) 00:33:43 night 00:35:44 indeed it is 01:57:50 Blank verse is better than rhyming, 01:57:55 For there's no need to worry of timing, 01:57:59 The problem you see, 01:58:02 With blank verse, to me, 01:58:17 Is that it's just an excuse for lazy people to write prose and call it poetry. 01:58:37 *sniff* so beautiful 02:04:28 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:06:27 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 02:17:44 A poem is 02:17:51 Just like prose, but 02:17:57 Separated by random 02:17:59 Newlines 02:21:15 Or sometimes // Double slashes // Just for conciseness. 02:22:07 That // Too. 03:05:06 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 05:19:07 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:30:46 -!- MizardX has joined. 07:51:48 -!- oklopol has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:10:13 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:10:29 -!- oklopol has joined. 08:36:08 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 09:12:17 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:27:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:10:00 -!- jix has joined. 10:32:17 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7908498.stm haha 10:41:06 hi 10:41:11 hi 10:41:21 ais523, quite interesting speed test: dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null& pid=$! ; sleep 30; kill -USR1 $pid; sleep 1; kill $pid 10:41:37 on FreeBSD replace USR1 with INFO 10:41:52 why are you sending sigusr1 to dd? 10:42:00 ais523, because it dumps stats 10:42:02 like speed 10:42:15 20219142656 bytes (20 GB) copied, 30.0494 s, 673 MB/s too 10:42:21 also, you don't want that to run too much, your /dev will end up running out of zeros 10:42:24 err remove too 10:42:32 ais523, hah hah 10:45:47 ais523: Also, your bit bucket will fill up. 10:46:04 pikhq: most of the parts of this laptop are starting to break, anyway 10:46:08 I think the bit bucket is leaky 10:46:20 and the more zeros in there, the more pressure on the leaks and the faster they get out 10:47:22 no you are both wrong 10:47:38 2.6.23 and later recycles from /dev/null 10:47:58 all zeros are sent for using in /dev/zero 10:48:01 -!- ais523 has quit. 10:48:11 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:48:20 ais523, did you miss what I said? 10:48:27 yes 10:48:32 and the more zeros in there, the more pressure on the leaks and the faster they get out 10:48:32 no you are both wrong 10:48:32 2.6.23 and later recycles from /dev/null 10:48:32 all zeros are sent for using in /dev/zero 10:48:32 * ais523 has quit () 10:48:51 I was wondering when someone would think of recycling 10:49:19 ais523, other bits are used for other stuff, usually /dev/random and /dev/urandom 10:49:42 wouldn't that leave /dev/random spewing out more ones than zeros? 10:50:05 ais523, random gets 0 from the zero buffer when it needs it 10:50:08 duh 10:50:31 * AnMaster wonders what /dev/cpu_dma_latency is 10:50:45 that's the sort of thing I'd expect in /proc not /dev 10:50:56 /dev/network_latency exists too 10:51:04 # cat /dev/network_latency 10:51:04 cat: /dev/network_latency: Invalid argument 10:51:13 network_throughput as well 10:51:29 heh 10:51:32 ais523, and indeed 10:51:58 ais523: Obviously, it can toggle 0s to 1s. 10:52:26 pikhq, and the other way, it does that only if it runs out of the buffers 10:52:38 to avoid the overhead when possible 10:52:44 Well, of course. 11:07:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:11:45 -!- ais523 has quit ("lunch"). 11:30:41 So can you do echo "really really much" > /dev/network_throughput when you want a faster connection? 11:39:26 And /dev/network_{latency,throughput} seems to be intended for processes who want to register/monitor QoS requirements. 11:41:48 That's a funny interface; you open /dev/network_throughput and write in what you want to get, then keep a file handle open as long as you want it to be active. I would have expected some ugly ioctl nastiness. 11:49:42 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:51:49 fizzie, heh 11:51:53 yeah funny interface 11:56:32 strange, seems like time(NULL) takes a lot of the system time. Ah I guess the HRTI test calling y so often causes that... 12:04:47 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:05:06 oh right... that is callgrind's time().. 12:10:27 for (ssize_t i = len; i >= 0; i--) 12:10:27 stack->entries[top - (size_t)i] = str[i]; 12:10:38 gcc generates very suboptimal code for that, even at -O3 12:10:39 hm 12:10:54 fizzie, in jitfunge, which way does the stack grow? 12:11:07 or stacks 12:11:35 hrrm I just got an idea for fast asm on x86_64 for that stack push... 12:12:21 oh yes... abusing BSWAP I'm sure should be possible... 12:12:23 Up, I think. To higher addresses. I'm not completely sure how I did the stack-stackery, I think I just keep the topmost stack in the specially handled memory area, and copy things on stack-stack operations. 12:13:28 fizzie, well up is bad for string pushing on stack 12:13:31 I found 12:13:39 basically that is the main bottle neck in cfunge atm 12:13:56 since pushing strings mean reversing every byte to push a 0"gnirts" 12:14:09 mostly related to all those y in the HRTI test that mycology does 12:14:24 and huge env 12:14:34 Yes, well, my STRN implementation might not be very optimal anyway. 12:14:38 $ env | wc -c 12:14:38 5685 12:15:44 fizzie, well STRN isn't a bottle neck in mycology, and my STRN is "not too bad", and actually since it is defined to use strings it isn't well defined how values outside the range of char works in STRN 12:16:15 in cfunge it depends on which instruction, since some uses unsigned char*, and other ones just copies directly to/from funge space 12:16:47 should probably implement some sort of fungeCell* pushing thing... would be faster 12:17:17 (less checks for available stack space, since unlike you I don't mess with catching SEGV and poking registers to avoid checking for stack size) 12:19:09 There's no special reason why I couldn't have a downward-growing stack, except that theoretically it might be a bit more likely to find free pages after the stack than before it. But that's just a guess. And anyway I do that half-assed attempt to stick the stack out there in the wilderness if possible. 12:19:34 yeah.. down growing stacks means grow isn't a simple realloc() any more 12:19:47 for me 12:21:18 Actually, heh, I don't think current jitfunge even grows the stack at all. Haven't touched that code in a while, but all I'm seeing here are the underflow checks. 12:23:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:45:20 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 13:05:02 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:11:43 ais523, hi 13:11:49 hi 13:14:15 ais523, is there any way to tell gcc that how a specific memory block is a aligned, I mean I have a pointer to an array of ints and want to tell gcc it is properly aligned for SSE access, since gcc decides to not try to vectorize the loop due to: "note: Unknown alignment for access: *array_25" 13:14:21 but I know it is properly aligned 13:14:27 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:14:42 there's an __attribute__ for it, I'm pretty sure 13:14:44 check the docs 13:15:47 ais523, that is for aligning variables yes, but there doesn't seem to be one to tell it how a malloc()ed block is aligned (and gcc can't possible trace this back to the malloc since the pointer has been stored in a struct for quite a while before and passed around) 13:16:21 couldn't you put the attribute in the right place in a pointer definition to constrain what it's pointing to, rather than what it is? 13:16:42 tried that. it seemed to align the pointer itself 13:23:19 There's that "aligned (x)" attribute for types; the example has "typedef int more_aligned_int __attribute__ ((aligned (8)));". Maybe you could (ab)use a similar typedef -- like do "typedef unsigned char sse_aligned_char __attribute__ ((aligned (42)));" and then keep a sse_aligned_char* type pointer. 13:23:31 (There's 42 because I don't really know how many bytes you want there.) 13:23:47 I don't think aligning to 42-byte boundaries would be particularly useful... 13:24:47 hm 13:25:12 I need to align 128-bits probably 13:25:23 lets try that with 64 bits 13:26:01 (8) 13:26:07 -!- impomatic has joined. 13:27:03 Also: 13:27:09 As another example, 13:27:15 char *__attribute__((aligned(8))) *f; 13:27:22 specifies the type "pointer to 8-byte-aligned pointer to `char'". 13:27:26 ais523: but but - clearly that must be the answer 13:27:33 actually that doesn't help. What I need is to tell it *base* is aligned 13:27:48 error: alignment of array elements is greater than element size 13:27:53 if I try fizzie's suggestion 13:28:17 Yes, well, you can try something like "char __attribute__((aligned(16))) *foo" too. 13:28:27 But I'm no GCCer. 13:28:43 eh 13:28:58 hm 13:29:19 Oh, maybe I should've read the rest of that paragraph. 13:29:44 "Note again that this does not work with most attributes; for example, the usage of `aligned' and `noreturn' attributes given above is not yet supported." immediately after that char *__.. example. 13:33:35 still doesn't help 13:33:51 fizzie, aligned would cause it to insert padding between each member in array 13:34:11 As far as the "attribute in typedef" is considered, certainly with a "typedef unsigned char auchar __attribute__ ((aligned (16)));" I can't do "auchar foo[10];" without that error, but a "char foo[10]; auchar* bar = (auchar*)foo;" works just fine. 13:34:15 not tell it that the first member is aligned on even 16 bytes 13:34:17 which it is 13:34:58 Not that I have any clue whether gcc would understand that access via that "bar" pointer there would be 16-byte-aligned. Or what auchar[1] would mean. Maybe there would be padding. 13:35:12 Er, I mean bar[1] there. 13:35:19 fizzie, it can do it for static variables 13:35:23 err 13:35:25 yeah 13:35:27 and stack ones 13:37:56 Yes, well, my interpretation of "typedef foo afoo __attribute__ ((aligned (x))); ... afoo* x = ...;" would be "afoo is a foo-type thing that is aligned at x-byte boundaries, so x is therefore a pointer to a foo-element aligned thusly", but I really can't know how GCC reads it. 13:38:11 icc seems to understand this with no hints btw... 13:41:03 GCC does have that vector-size attribute, too, for more explicit vectorizablitiesies. 13:42:27 The stuff at http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Vector-Extensions.html I mean. But I haven't really found any concrete examples about "here's how to tell the alignment of a memory block for auto-vectorization purposes". 13:54:40 o 13:54:57 oko 13:55:33 okleosynthesis 13:59:46 The basis of all matter. 14:00:26 (Musts away.) 14:00:27 ...no *your* matter 14:00:32 except the matter that doesn't matter 14:00:57 I was this close to adding "at least all interesting matter". 14:01:01 Well, no matter. 14:01:04 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:01:19 -!- oklopol has joined. 14:02:18 16:00… fizzie: Well, no matter. ||| 16:00… * Disconnected <<< for second there i perceived this as if fizzie had quit just after that message, and somehow it would've looked like i was disconnecting from my perspective. 14:02:26 it was weird 14:05:08 Are talk pages on the esolang wiki covered by the same license as the articles pages? 14:07:15 I think so 14:07:22 there's an agree-to-PD message below the edit box 14:07:26 and it's the only way to change them 14:07:46 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:09:57 Thanks :-) 14:10:12 I wanted to use something from the Underload talk page 14:11:36 which one? 14:11:44 if I wrote it, it's definitely PD, with my compliments 14:14:32 Thanks, but it's Keymaker's quine :-) 14:14:59 what did you want it for, by the way? 14:15:06 i think that's in the article too? 14:15:17 no, my quine's the one in the article 14:15:20 I thought I'd include it here with an explanation of how it works http://corewar.co.uk/assembly/underload.htm 14:19:00 GCC does have that vector-size attribute, too, for more explicit vectorizablitiesies. <-- doesn't do the same thing in this case 14:42:32 -!- dbc has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:50:23 -!- dbc has joined. 15:03:35 Just starting my implementation of Forth in Redcode. Still open to suggestions 15:07:26 -!- ehird has left (?). 15:07:28 -!- ehird has joined. 15:08:23 i was gone a day 15:08:25 did you miss me 15:08:31 good 15:08:37 * impomatic did :-) 15:08:51 see, clearly I'm the most important member of this channel. 15:09:15 ehird: I was gone a day too, so no 15:09:19 I didn't know you weren't there to miss 15:09:49 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 15:10:03 hi upyr[emacs] 15:10:05 you new? 15:10:14 wait, ehird was gone a day? *duck* 15:10:28 :< 15:12:49 ehird: yes :/ 15:13:03 why the :/? nervous about the goat sacrifice? 15:13:04 it'll be ok. 15:13:20 also, has nobody noticed the logs link is wrong? 15:13:37 :/ decouse i don't sleep 2 days 15:13:51 that could be an issue 15:13:52 fucking wiki locking up just as i'm saving :< 15:13:56 clog: are you sure you didn't mean oklopol? 15:19:56 http://blogs.msdn.com/michkap/archive/2005/09/17/469941.aspx 15:24:10 15:59:55 IMO all apps should have upper limits on how much they will allocate 15:24:10 16:00:00 formal upper bounds 15:24:10 16:00:07 not just for the sorting algorithm 15:24:11 16:00:12 but for the whole app 15:24:20 Alternative solution: don't write memory hogging apps. 15:24:28 Crazy, I know. 15:24:49 AnMaster's method looks like a way to make sure you don't write a memory hogging app 15:25:14 err, you can easily write a memory hogging app by doing that 15:25:18 it gains you approximately nothing. 15:25:36 it lets you know exactly how memory hogging it is 15:25:57 no, it doesn't, and to boot, even if it did it's a tedious, stupid way of finding that out 15:30:34 ubiquite (ubiquiting, ubiquited), v. To make a property more ubiquitous. 15:30:46 (also, ubiquties) 15:31:06 maybe it should be ubiquit 15:31:14 , ubiquiting, ubiquited, ubiquites 15:36:23 Yay, Forth interpreter is working! 15:36:35 well done 15:36:41 Thanks :-) 15:36:50 can it multiply? 15:37:15 Yes, it supports about 20 words 15:37:38 impomatic: does "SEE" work? 15:38:12 Hmmm... I don't know what SEE is, so probably not! 15:38:48 impomatic: prints to screen the forth source code of a defined word, or the disassembled machine code of a primitive 15:39:09 also, does IF, ELSE, THEN-style branch control work? 15:41:22 -!- MizardX has joined. 15:41:37 SEE doesn't work and probably won't ever. IF ELSE THEN not yet. BEGIN UNTIL is the only flow control so far. 15:41:37 It only 45 Redcode instructions! 15:41:58 how is BEGIN UNTIL implemented? 15:42:12 It's just, you can implement the language Forth conventionally, but it isn't really a forth unless you do it the "proper way" 15:42:17 threaded machine code that is 15:42:39 -!- jix has joined. 15:43:55 the following are implemented: u. space * = 1+ - + swap ?dup dup depth abs negate r> >r r@ begin drop until 15:44:06 It's threaded 15:45:13 ehird: redcode's all about threaded machine code 15:45:17 that, and crazy side effects 15:45:23 err, no. 15:45:32 i mean you have to compile forth to threaded machine code 15:45:42 also redcode isn't _threaded_ machine code 15:45:47 ehird: yes it is 15:45:47 that makes no sense, you can only compile to that 15:45:53 have you not seen the SPL instruction? 15:46:00 I don't recall it 15:46:15 ehird: well, you're missing the point if you miss the instruction that does machine-code threading 15:46:17 -!- MizardX- has joined. 15:46:34 SPL is one of the most important opcodes in redcode, it massively changes the way the language works 15:46:41 oh wait 15:47:03 "threading" means something different in forth, nothing to do with concurrency 15:47:10 -!- MizardX has quit (Connection reset by peer). 15:47:16 iirc 15:47:27 no duh 15:47:34 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 15:47:45 ais523: so no, you don't know what threaded means 15:47:54 oh, ok, one word with two meanings? 15:47:59 threading in Forth means the program is compiled to a long series of subroutine addresses 15:48:08 I'm tempted to say forth's meaning came first. 15:48:16 impomatic: exactly 15:48:26 2 2 + -> {&LITERAL,2,&LITERAL,2,&PLUS} 15:48:33 (where LITERAL looks one ahead in the ip) 15:49:47 Yes, that's exactly how it compiles :-) 15:50:02 i was explaining for ais523 15:51:51 what? ais523 didn't know what threading in forth was? ^_^ 15:51:57 no 15:52:03 oh ok 15:52:23 that's pretty interesting, it's sort-of like coercing an ordinary processor into being a bytecode interpreter 15:52:26 ais523, ever seen bashforth? string-threaded iirc 15:52:47 redcode doesn't have subroutines, so you'd need to implement a stack yourself to do it like that 15:52:58 mhm 15:53:22 colourforth! 15:53:48 any colour so long as it's red 15:54:58 ais523, was that a reference to black for t-ford? 15:55:14 yes 15:55:21 although it seems Mr. Ford never actually said that 15:55:22 right 15:55:40 oh? Another of the "Beam me up, Scotty" famous unsaid lines? 15:56:06 yes 15:56:21 [15:52:23] that's pretty interesting, it's sort-of like coercing an ordinary processor into being a bytecode interpreter 15:56:28 sort of but actually not. 15:56:33 in fact, not really sort of,. 15:56:37 ais523, so what is the origin of it then? 15:56:42 I'm not sure 15:56:50 probably you could look it up on snopes or somewhere 15:57:32 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:57:36 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 15:59:29 'as Ford wrote in his autobiography, "Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black"' (WP) 15:59:37 heh 16:00:05 ok he never *said* it then? but rather wrote it? 16:00:33 or maybe it is a myth that it is a myth that he never said it! 16:01:18 father 16:01:23 I am your luk 16:01:23 e 16:01:47 http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Henry_Ford#Any_colo.28u.29r.2C_so_long_as_it_is_black 16:03:11 I love the way the u is parenthesised in that 16:06:38 colers <-- solved 16:06:48 naybohr <- see? 16:07:47 eye see 16:09:30 eehurd is sow smarte 16:09:33 Writing a mathematical function in Brainfuck is as easy to do as a CAT program in Unlambda :D 16:09:37 you mean really easy? 16:09:47 (2008-03-21, vintage quotes, move along_ 16:09:48 ) 16:11:07 anyone can write the former, not everyone can write the latter 16:11:26 I think the latter is easier 16:11:28 yes 16:11:30 definitely 16:11:57 the latter is easier but only if you know how 16:12:01 unlambda is an asymptotically much simpler language, so to speak, so once you know it, should be very easyt 16:12:02 also, which mathematial function? 16:12:03 *easy 16:12:17 ais523: any is the implication 16:12:34 presumably one you can write in some other language already 16:12:46 well yes 16:12:55 addition's easy enough in BF 16:13:56 * ehird thinks about implementing look_and_say(N) as O(1) 16:14:02 where N = iteration number 16:14:42 hmm 16:14:45 the first digit goes 16:14:51 1 1 2, then 1 1 3 forever 16:15:11 well it has exponential growth 16:15:13 the second goes (), 1, 1, 2, then 1 1 3 probably forever 16:15:22 the third digit goes 1 1 2 then 1 33 forever 16:15:39 the fourth goes 1 2 2 then 1 3 3 forever 16:15:43 hrm. 16:15:55 I'm pretty sure if you had a digits_in_look_and_say(N) you could do it 16:16:18 also where did you get those numbers there? 16:16:29 16:10:44 1 16:16:30 16:10:44 11 16:16:30 16:10:44 21 16:16:30 16:10:44 121116:10:44 111221 16:16:30 16:10:44 312211 16:16:30 16:10:46 13112221 16:16:32 etc 16:16:38 examining the digit at each position downwards 16:16:43 I think they're fairly trivial patterns 16:17:02 so number of digits in N + some modulo magic should do it 16:17:09 it splits into atoms, naturally, after that it's just substitution 16:17:21 I'm trying to do it non-recursively 16:17:22 O(1) 16:18:11 i bet i can make it like O(½) 16:18:16 16:18:13 after a number of iterations it split into Conway's elements. From there on it is a simple substitution 16:18:17 wut 16:18:33 you mean finding the m'th digit of the n'th iteration, O(1) in n? (but obviously cannot by O(1) in m) 16:18:45 *be 16:19:02 oerjan: no, element N of the LAS sequence in O(1) 16:19:06 i'm fairly certain it is possible 16:19:14 erm i have that page on my wp watchlist 16:19:28 wut 16:19:49 for look and say 16:19:52 and 16:19:53 ? 16:20:02 oerjan: let him dream. 16:20:11 i dream about unicorns. 16:20:13 wait, no I don't. 16:20:20 i dream about doing math. 16:20:45 first of all, nothing can be O(1) if it doesn't have constant size output and requires looking at only finite part of input 16:20:45 usually i'm solving a scrambled version of an exercise i was doing before going to sleep 16:21:13 and the bubble is popped. 16:21:48 at least in the usual turing machine sense of O() 16:21:55 -!- ShakespeareFan00 has joined. 16:22:16 i think ehird just means finding the nth element without solving the ones leading up to it first. 16:22:16 [16:20:45] first of all, nothing can be O(1) if it doesn't have constant size output and requires looking at only finite part of input 16:22:19 not the sense I meant 16:22:24 well 16:22:27 okay, I said it wrongly 16:22:32 ShakespeareFan00: Hi. 16:22:44 sometimes you need to say wrongly to be heard. 16:23:48 http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Sigsumeidsi - Anyone think this could be tweaked for programming? 16:24:05 Unfortunatly I lost the IRC logs of it's creation 16:24:13 you can make any parsable language into a programming language 16:24:26 doesn't mean it'll have interesting semantics 16:32:20 i wonder if you can implement thue in thue non-trivially 16:34:53 Sigsumeidsi notes are GFDL 16:35:02 feel free to do with it what you will 16:37:13 ShakespeareFan00: sorry, we can't. 16:37:15 our wiki is public domain. 16:37:54 Oh 16:37:55 :( 16:38:00 Never mind 16:38:24 A lot of Sigsumeidsi was my idea though... so I'll see if I've got the VERY early form of it 16:40:02 And I seem to be the sole contributor on the Wikia site 16:40:10 (I KNOW I had help with it though :( ) 16:51:38 * ehird writes constraint-based language. 16:54:19 ehrid: had you come across condit? 16:54:29 I don't recall. 16:55:16 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Condit 16:55:35 seems pretty trivial 17:04:36 well, that page doesn't say anything about how you write conditions or actions 17:04:55 * AnMaster follows the link 17:06:31 looks to me like it follows the basic idea of pattern matching in awk or sed style, but matching conditions instead of input stream? 17:11:51 * ehird permutes infinite lists 17:12:17 * ehird wonders how to ubiquit permutations 17:30:14 -!- oerjan has quit ("permutation = reversible operation"). 17:32:57 * ehird takes on stupid task 17:37:09 -!- Hiato has joined. 17:49:18 wow, what a weird spam 17:49:28 Subject: ?spam? [Icfpc08] haemaatocrit postmarked stiffer basswood 17:49:29 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:45:42 +0000 17:49:32 culling suubtilisers retranslated fiction 17:49:45 "suubtilisers" isn't even a word... 17:49:49 :DD 17:49:51 and haemaatocrit is somewhat suspicious 17:49:58 and that's all that the messsage is 17:50:01 apart from the mailing list footer 17:51:42 -!- ShakespeareFan00 has left (?). 18:00:00 ais523, I have seen spam looking like the commit mails sourceforge sends... same formatting 18:00:09 why? 18:00:24 ais523, no idea 18:00:47 however it would be closer to the type of mail I actually get 18:00:55 almost only mailing lists 18:01:09 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 18:02:33 this makes it easy to find spam btw.... Almost all non-spam I get would match this regex (for subject line): ^(Re: )*\[[-a-zA-z]+\] 18:04:05 -!- Azstal has joined. 18:19:02 so, guys 18:19:16 do you think passing around 40 bits will be efficient. 18:19:28 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:21:20 ehird: on a 64-bit system, probably 18:21:31 32-bit. 18:21:37 on a 64 bit system, 72 bits. 18:22:05 (thinking about passing around struct{char tag; void *data;} to have tagged pointers without losing address space) 18:24:19 how many tag bits do you actually need? 18:25:28 ehird: the usual trick exploits the fact that all pointers are even 18:25:36 except that's bullshit 18:25:39 but that only gives you one tag bit 18:25:44 since ... pointers are not always even... 18:25:50 ehird: well, it depends on the processor and what you're allocating 18:25:55 Asztal: well, char is the smallest type C will give you 18:25:57 it's normally easy to /make/ all pointers even 18:26:39 ais523: and that halves the addressing space 18:26:40 unacceptable 18:27:09 are you allocating lots of one-byte objects on the heap? 18:28:22 no 18:28:27 but I don't want to put limits like that 18:28:53 wonder why % texi2html --nomenu --nonumber --split=section r5rs.txi is taking so long 18:34:15 ais523: I guess passing around anything bigger than a machine word is bad? 18:34:23 yes, if you're going for speed 18:34:35 it generally takes a length of time proportional to the number of machine words you're using 18:34:47 and substantially more if you don't have enough free registers to hold the whole thing 18:35:53 I guess only being able to address 9223372036854775808 bytes on a 64-bit machine is okay :-D 18:36:33 ais523: hm, so passing around `long`s is slow? 18:36:59 (more worrying is only being able to address 2147483647 bytes on a 32 bit machine, but I should not worry...) 18:37:03 no, well only on a 16-bit architecture 18:37:15 also, is this an OS-independent application? 18:37:17 who uses 32 bit machines and runs program allocating >2gb anyway... 18:37:21 ais523: Yes, hopefully. 18:37:35 oh, so longs fit in a machine word? 18:37:35 a useful trick to know is that all the main OSes around at the moment reserve half of the available memory addresses for their own use 18:37:41 ehird: on 32-bit and 64-bit, yes 18:37:47 because long = 32 and 64 respectively 18:37:53 on 16-bit, a long is two machine words 18:38:03 and on 8-bit, it's 4, but you don't get many 8-bit machines around nowadays 18:38:04 wait, on 32 bit and 64 int = long right? 18:38:07 in C 18:38:16 almost 18:38:22 int is normally 32 on a 64-bit system 18:38:27 because so many programs assume int = 32 18:38:29 oh right 18:38:32 int /ought/ to be 64, though 18:38:37 hmm 18:38:42 apparently, even long's 32-bit on 64-bit Windows 18:38:46 how can you assure memory is aligned? 18:38:51 malloc() doesn't let you ... use mmap? 18:38:53 ehird: compiler flags 18:38:58 ew 18:38:59 and malloc always returns aligned memory 18:39:10 -always- returns even? 18:39:13 C guaranteed? 18:39:28 it guarantees that you can dereference any standard data type through a malloc-returned pointer 18:39:36 err, duh 18:39:40 well, that's obvious 18:39:48 but I suppose on some processors that doesn't guarantee aligned 18:39:53 even though it does on processors like x86 18:40:03 I didn't know all pointers are even on x86. Queer. 18:40:09 the processors would either need to manage unaligned accesses, or else have a char larger than 8-bit 18:40:19 in order for that to screw up 18:40:27 and both are unlikely nowadays, although not impossible I suppose 18:40:51 ais523: This is all well and nice but I need more than 1-bit of tagging. 18:40:55 ehird: all pointers to ints, yes, pointers to chars can be odd for obvious reasons but not if they were obtained from malloc 18:41:13 ehird: I was reading up on how OCaml did it last night 18:41:22 it tagged integers vs. things more complicated than integers 18:41:28 Yes that is common. 18:41:34 and the more complicated things were stored as pointers to a tag plus data 18:41:41 Well, I guess I could do 18:41:44 tag = fixnum? 18:41:45 and 18:41:47 so the pointers, which were lightweight, could be moved around whilst the tags stayed constant in memory 18:41:47 then 18:41:56 '() could be 0 18:42:05 #t could be 2 18:42:07 #f could be 4 18:42:17 (since those addresses are hardly likely to be allocated) 18:42:52 ais523: my eventual plan is to make this compile down to efficient machine code, becoming a compiler 18:42:58 but first I'm going to do an interp 18:43:00 (Scheme) 18:43:33 a useful trick to know is that all the main OSes around at the moment reserve half of the available memory addresses for their own use <--- you can free up another bit if you find out /which/ half 18:43:48 what about using the range of [0..256] for #\a constants? 18:43:48 and note that half of all addresses != half of memory, generally speaking 18:44:04 ais523: finding out which half is presumably not very easy to do in code... 18:44:15 one slight problem is that windows XP can be made to reserve only 1GB for itself ;) 18:44:38 Asztal: well, it'd be (map(4+ . <<1, (0...256))) 18:44:39 that is 18:44:54 er I said that wrong 18:44:54 but 18:45:00 #\NUL would be 6 18:45:29 #\(255, I forget what char it is) would be 514 18:45:56 Asztal: except 18:45:58 I'm doing unicode 18:45:58 :-) 18:46:08 you could even have 16-bit exact integers, if you didn't mind wasting a bit more ... oh 18:47:25 really {char tag; void *data} would be perfect, if only it were efficient 18:55:55 * ehird recurs 4294967295 times. 18:57:41 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:35:13 "When was the last time you saw a 1600-line C program with only 25 assignment statements?" 19:35:18 I should write one. 19:36:08 I've written C programs with no statements at all... 19:36:19 :D 19:37:22 apart from flow control, you can do anything you like in declarations 19:38:15 that's cheating 19:41:15 surely there was at least one statement 19:44:14 -!- grrlfawkes has joined. 19:44:26 -!- grrlfawkes has left (?). 19:45:19 Can't or Dust? 19:45:42 Deewiant: nope 19:45:51 ais523: what did main() look like? 19:46:01 Deewiant: a function call, IIRC 19:46:18 int main(void) {int x = (f(), exit(0));} was the general gist of it 19:46:23 wait 19:46:30 int main(void) {int x = (f(), exit(0), 0);} 19:46:33 to get the data type right 19:47:15 aren't variable declarations like that also statements? 19:47:24 nope, they're declarations 19:47:25 * ehird thinks about a compiler language 19:47:26 err 19:47:29 you can mix them with other declarations 19:47:32 a compiler language that does formal semantics, that is 19:47:34 but not inside statements, except in C9 19:47:36 *c99 19:47:36 and yet does efficient machine code 19:47:38 hrm 19:47:50 it'll have to be _imperative_ formal semantics :P 19:56:10 ehird: hoare logic? :P 19:58:18 http://pastie.org/401316.txt?key=dqcm5fjjhuynhxrvj9nwq 19:58:24 example of what I imagine it to be like 20:02:36 http://pastie.org/401324.txt?key=axr1a9azdlzsjawzet8w compiler output from that, with some tweaks to , due to my original errors 20:02:58 should be relatively trivial to make into asm 20:06:03 -!- olsner has joined. 20:11:25 guys 20:11:30 go into #haskell, immediately 20:11:33 and listen to this yohan kid 20:11:45 why 20:11:47 what is he saying 20:11:47 dont say anything 20:11:48 just listen 20:11:54 tell me 20:12:01 oh. 20:12:07 he .. 20:12:16 he thinks copy(a,b) { a=b; } should be valid haskell 20:12:25 and that you need to be able to "copy stuff" in order to be TC 20:12:35 he's trolling 20:12:35 psygnisfive: just read the logs 20:12:36 he's a troll 20:12:42 and people know he's trolling 20:12:45 so no harm 20:14:18 Im writing my master thesis about why imperative programming languages are fast 20:14:35 he could just be a dumb coder 20:14:38 ehird: you are boring :( 20:14:40 unlikely 20:14:44 i mean, he's getting a masters 20:15:02 psygnisfive: he's doing a masters with haskell at chalmers 20:15:11 he's also a far better troll than ehird 20:15:20 I'm not a literal troll. 20:15:26 I troll people by getting them to think I'm a troll and being annoying. 20:15:35 This annoys lament more than a real troll as you see. 20:16:18 [shortly after 'atm? ass to mouth'] 20:16:19 ASM? Ass to mouth? 20:19:39 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:20:31 [20:19:19] jkup: python, is that like an include file? 20:20:34 :D 20:26:08 -!- ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating..."). 20:26:23 ! 20:43:17 :'( 20:46:36 -!- k2 has joined. 20:46:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:46:58 -!- k2 has changed nick to kar8nga. 21:05:45 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 21:33:08 -!- ehird has joined. 21:49:58 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:51:28 i == true swap [] if 21:51:30 ^ code I wrote 21:51:34 who wannsa figure out how it works 21:51:42 given 21:51:43 i : 'R ('R -- 'S) -- 'S 21:51:43 == : 'R 'a 'b -- 'R bool 21:51:43 true : 'R -- 'R bool 21:51:43 swap : 'R 'a 'b -- 'R 'b 'a 21:51:43 [] : 'R -- 'R 21:51:45 if : 'R bool ('R -- 'T) ('R -- 'T) -- 'T 21:51:47 i wrote it ages ago 21:51:49 so I don't know how it works :D 21:52:01 err, [] would technicaly be 'R -- 'R ('S -- 'S) 22:01:40 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 22:02:52 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:04:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:06:39 looks to me like [] evaluates, and code is just pushed on stack 22:06:49 but i guess if would need to be special. 22:07:51 err... "i == true swap []" => "i true ==" on stack, i guess the if wouldn't actually make any sense, as you're not doing anything. 22:07:56 so forget i said anything. 22:08:34 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:16:10 oklopol: no 22:16:13 i is 'call' 22:16:23 and [] is the empty quotation 22:39:48 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 22:48:53 [ehird:~] % port installed|grep xorg-|awk '{print $1}'|xargs sudo port uninstall 22:48:55 Unix is fun. 22:50:43 grah 22:51:02 -!- ehird has set topic: Don't use rafb.net for pasting because they delete pastes. Think of the log-readers. Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 22:51:17 hulk smash 22:52:57 -!- asdasd has joined. 22:53:02 -!- Dewi has joined. 22:53:04 fuuuuuuuuuuuck Your have been using Linkinus for more than 15 days. If you like Linkinus, please purchase it for unrestricted use! 22:54:32 wtf, it's shareware? 22:55:17 Seeing how it says so on the site, I find myself unsurprised :P 23:04:50 -!- ehird has left (?). 23:04:53 -!- ehird has joined. 23:05:08 how many people alive? when I disconnect, please say something in the interim. 23:05:17 disconnected... NOW 23:05:20 I'm alive, just not saying anything 23:06:26 ok, thanks ais523, can you PART/JOIN in 10 seconds? :) 23:06:34 -!- ais523 has left (?). 23:06:35 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:06:47 not sure if that was 10 seconds 23:07:58 damn, miau doesn't datestamp joins. does parts, though 23:08:27 ais523 -- final thing, how about a NOTICE to this channel? 23:08:32 ok 23:08:33 when 23:08:34 ? 23:09:43 Thanks ais523 23:11:35 ais523 can you say something in 10 seconds? thanks 23:12:07 adjsljdlasjd 23:12:10 agh 23:12:11 too late 23:12:19 try again please? 23:12:37 no, I'm going home 23:12:39 sorry about that 23:12:41 -!- ais523 has quit. 23:13:04 heh nice timing 23:15:15 AnMaster: you alive? 23:16:00 ehird, BRAAAAINS! 23:16:29 ehird, night 23:16:46 grah. 23:20:13 comex: ping 23:26:50 it's not annoying 23:27:08 I go for a compromise: 23:27:10 It's buttoing 23:27:34 -!- Dewi has quit ("bbs"). 23:27:37 stop toeing my butt! 23:27:40 no 23:27:42 it's so delicious 23:27:46 :-| 23:28:28 i guess someone should put a notice in my notice now. 23:28:38 hi xzibit 23:28:59 [unexpected log event :(] 23:29:24 nice touch 23:29:30 /notice #esoteric 23:29:31 oh fuck 23:29:32 :-D 23:30:39 /nickserv password ohshitwhoops 23:31:43 -!- asdasd has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:32:31 GregorR: are you a magic cowboy 23:33:21 well that's pretty okay ;=) 23:33:31 pretty okay indeed 23:33:36 ;============================================================8D) 23:36:12 umm 23:36:15 my brain is tickling 23:36:24 a magical butt on a tree 23:36:24 feels weird. 23:36:28 8===PEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENIS===D 23:36:38 weenis 2009-02-27: 00:00:04 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:04:44 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:51:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:29:57 -!- Dewi has joined. 02:43:19 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:48:52 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 04:17:12 Bye all 04:17:50 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 04:28:06 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 04:29:16 -!- rodgort has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:29:17 -!- Robdgreat has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:29:18 -!- ehird has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:29:20 -!- GregorR has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:29:29 -!- ehird has joined. 04:29:29 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:30:16 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:30:37 -!- Robdgreat has joined. 04:30:37 -!- rodgort has joined. 04:32:09 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfive. 04:48:36 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:49:58 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 05:21:52 -!- ab5tract has joined. 05:26:08 -!- Slereah has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:26:08 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:26:23 -!- Slereah has joined. 05:26:23 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 05:48:51 netspplitting is so impolite. 05:51:00 It's very polite, actually. 05:51:27 The tradition of netsplitting from royalty dates back to the Roman Empire. 05:53:59 ...practically 07:45:04 -!- ab5tract has quit. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:52:27 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 08:56:13 it was a small split anyway 08:56:18 (on this side) 09:12:39 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:49:25 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:30:01 -!- ais523 has quit ("meeting in RL"). 10:45:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 11:24:06 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:47:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:29:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has changed nick to FireFly. 12:29:20 -!- FireFly has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 13:16:27 -!- Hiato has joined. 13:32:02 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:34:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 13:34:43 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 15:00:35 -!- ehird has left (?). 15:00:39 -!- ehird has joined. 15:47:39 http://farm1.static.flickr.com/36/114732870_bab0bdae2c_b.jpg 16:01:04 ehird, what is up with that * ... 16:01:36 well I can see it is related to the last person (a woman) but I don't get it stil.. 16:01:39 still* 16:01:51 is it trying to me funny 16:01:55 s/me/be/ 16:02:01 cold fingers.. 16:02:23 "all print *men" 16:02:38 yes 16:02:40 it's attached to 'men' 16:02:42 ehird, I see both * 16:02:44 yes 16:02:54 still I don't see why it uses "men" then 16:03:15 -!- Xeanalyth has joined. 16:03:21 apart from that, Helvetica is rather nice 16:04:08 it's a joke 16:04:10 * Xeanalyth peeks in for the first time... 16:04:15 hi Xeanalyth 16:04:18 hi Xeanalyth 16:04:21 what brings you here? 16:04:22 ehird, right, not very funny one though 16:04:24 hi there, ehird and ais523 16:04:25 what brings you here? 16:04:27 and hello Xeanalyth 16:04:28 AnMaster: it's an ad, ads aren't funny :P 16:04:33 ais523: GET OUT OF MY MIND 16:04:35 ehird, ah right 16:05:01 ehird: ... been IRCing for years, never thought to look for esoteric chans before now :) 16:05:11 wait lemme guess 16:05:15 you think it's esoterica right 16:05:16 that is esoteric programming 16:05:18 sorry to disappoint 16:05:20 what AnMaster said :P 16:05:20 ehird: Lol 16:05:28 ehird: I'm a student of the western mystery tradition. 16:05:33 Xeanalyth, we are about stuff like weird programming languages 16:05:34 yepppp, not the channel for you. 16:05:45 hmm, our topic is unhelpful again 16:05:46 same word used for it.. 16:05:55 -!- AnMaster has set topic: Esoteric programming! | Don't use rafb.net for pasting because they delete pastes. Think of the log-readers. Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 16:06:00 !ul (aS(:^)S):^ 16:06:01 -!- ehird has set topic: Esoterica. As in programming languages. Not mysticism. Don't use rafb.net for pasting because they delete pastes. Think of the log-readers. Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 16:06:03 ^ul (aS(:^)S):^ 16:06:04 (aS(:^)S):^ 16:06:09 ehird, that works too 16:06:10 ahh i see :) 16:06:18 sorry to disappoint :< 16:06:18 well, it's a case of #esoteric on a programming server 16:06:19 that could be just as interesting :) 16:06:24 which is why it's about esoteric programming languages 16:06:32 Xeanalyth: that's what they all say, they rarely come back though :P 16:06:40 hehe 16:06:42 hm? "programming server", I guess you could call freenode 16:06:47 call freenode that* 16:06:49 AnMaster: err, that's exactly what it is :P 16:07:01 ehird, no, it is a network, more than one server 16:07:06 though that is nit picking 16:07:18 Xeanalyth: see this nitpicking? half of the channel traffic is that. 16:07:19 just warning you. 16:07:34 not really, I would guess around 39% at most :P 16:07:39 -!- ehird has set topic: Esoterica. As in programming languages. Not mysticism. Don't use rafb.net for pasting because they delete pastes. Think of the log-readers. Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 16:07:45 (putting sorting in the log links so today comes at the top) 16:07:54 ehird, good idea 16:08:00 it's probably something my housemate would be more into.. he's more the pure coder... i'm a unix admin 16:08:11 ais523, have you ever used hugetlb? 16:08:14 AnMaster: no 16:08:17 Xeanalyth: ah, unix administration. that would explain the esoterica. 16:08:26 ls; vi; sacrifice goats 16:08:57 I was planning to try using it for cfunge but found that at least on my machine I got an average of 2-3 TLB cache misses per run so I thought "not worth it" 16:08:59 i see that joke livened up the channel! 16:09:12 emacs! 16:09:32 -!- Xeanalyth has quit ("Changing server"). 16:09:40 ehird, see I *didn't* microoptimise there! 16:09:54 AnMaster: and by doing so, you're violating the spirit of cfunge 16:10:11 tut tut 16:10:14 ais523, well not really, since it wasn't worth it 16:10:16 I NoV AnMaster for not microoptimizing cfunge 16:10:17 you should instead mathematically prove that by not doing that optimisation, the time you save on startup is more than the time you lose on not optimising 16:10:18 AnMaster: ... 16:10:33 AnMaster: BARELY ANY OF YOUR OPTIMIZATIONS ARE WORTH IT! 16:10:33 >_< 16:10:34 ais523, the real bottle neck is pushing strings on stack (when running mycology) 16:12:09 even with stack growing down (tried that to see if it would help, didn't really) the auto vectoriser of GCC or ICC can't figure it out. Though I do have some vague ideas... 16:12:16 omg omg omg omg omg 16:12:19 "On Building a Stupidly Fast Graph Database" 16:12:23 I THINK THIS IS FOR ME 16:12:23 AnMaster: write the asm by hand? 16:12:40 <33 16:12:44 ais523, well as an optimised alternative: sure, I may. But it's tricky 16:12:54 due to the strange alignment rules for SSE :) 16:12:55 asm ain't tricky 16:12:57 oh 16:13:26 one of my favourite programming memories was on a piece of code which had to be amazingly efficient 16:13:31 ehird, asm isn't tricky indeed, but when you have to care about alignment and unrolling to fit specific CPUs and such... 16:13:37 ais523, oh? 16:13:41 in particular, there was an interrupt handler which needed to operate in only a few processor cycles 16:13:42 asm is mostly tedious 16:13:47 since memorizing instructions is near-impossible 16:13:52 ehird, indeed 16:13:52 so I had the C open in one window, and the asm it compiled to open in another window 16:13:54 RISC! 16:13:58 OISC. 16:14:04 well right... 16:14:04 I can keep that shit in my head. 16:14:05 and kept tweaking the C until the compiler generated the asm I wanted 16:14:13 so it was like hand-coding the asm, only more readable and portable 16:14:13 why not just use inline asm :P 16:14:26 ehird: so other people on the project could see what the code was going 16:14:28 *doing 16:14:32 ha 16:14:36 I ended up doing about 1/3 of the project, and it was a 10-person project 16:14:42 I think using intrinsics might be the way to go here 16:14:43 I actually have a project involving microoptimization 16:14:45 but it's for a good cause 16:14:45 quite a few of the other team members weren't particularly competent 16:14:53 still need to bother about alignment though 16:15:01 (and I _mean_ microoptimization) 16:15:02 ehird, hm? 16:15:04 detaisl? 16:15:06 details* 16:15:31 btw (one of google's own projects): http://code.google.com/p/mao/ 16:15:37 AnMaster: a highly efficient, uncomprimising (i.e. not like the Stalin compiler: a living environment with documentation, fully overridable core functions, etc) Scheme compiler 16:15:44 (& interpreter, but it just compiles and runs in place, like SBCL) 16:15:51 *uncompromising 16:15:52 ehird, ah nice 16:15:56 ehird, how much is done? 16:16:02 0. It's all in my head atm. 16:16:05 ah 16:16:07 but i think I can maybe someday compete with ocaml 16:16:10 on some code 16:16:13 heh 16:16:28 (although even that is unneccessary; most of the time something as slow as Perl is fine) 16:16:28 I was reading about the ocaml internals a few days ago 16:16:40 but I aim to be able to write stuff you'd normally write in C 16:16:41 ehird, Assuming you are using the best way to write it in both langs? And not just translating the algorithm? 16:16:46 AnMaster: yes 16:16:54 ehird, what about competing with C then? 16:16:59 ais523, oh? 16:17:09 it's quite interesting 16:17:15 ehird, I mean when it comes to speed 16:17:22 and comparable to C, not as fast but it can be within an order of magnitude 16:17:22 AnMaster: Sufficiently Smart Compilers can only go so far. In Scheme, you can override the + function at runtime, and the rest of your program will use the new one. 16:17:25 So you can't even inline arithmetic. 16:17:28 ah 16:17:30 ouch 16:17:33 Arithmetic HAS to look up the function definition and call it. 16:17:40 ehird, so you can't even constant fold? 16:17:40 Of course, this makes your optimizations more elegant: 16:17:41 ehird: JIT? 16:17:43 that hurts 16:17:46 you make function calls ridiculously fast 16:17:51 and lookups too 16:17:52 well JIT is a solution of course 16:17:58 ais523: it is JIT, kind of 16:18:00 I would certainly suggest JITted constant folding 16:18:02 I'm not compiling to binaries 16:18:10 I'm doing what SBCL does 16:18:12 ais523, makes sense 16:18:14 it may even be a good idea to generate two versions of the program 16:18:17 kind of like JIT 16:18:22 you compile a whole function/file at a time 16:18:22 one assuming primitives don't change, one where they can 16:18:24 but it's still in a REPL 16:18:30 ais523, that is AOT not JIT right? 16:18:31 ais523: that's not really practical though 16:18:38 AnMaster: well, ok 16:18:40 that makes the code size huge 16:18:50 note: I'll probably have a way to do constant folding, somehow 16:18:53 I'll think about it 16:19:00 ehird, you were right about Xeanalyth, seems he didn't come back 16:19:03 but I don't want to break ANY r5rs compliant program 16:19:04 AnMaster: :) 16:19:23 but, I think I can do it 16:19:34 it'd be nice not to have to whip out C when generating, say, 5 billion factorials. 16:19:44 (especially since in C for that you'd need gmp... *shudder*) 16:19:54 ehird, I think JIT with constant fold, and if +- and such are redefined invalidate all JIT compiled code using it 16:20:01 or something like that 16:20:11 that doesn't work for compiling to a binary 16:20:18 i think I can do it, but it will be hard 16:20:25 ehird, I'm not compiling to binaries 16:20:25 ? 16:20:31 well, I'm doing both 16:20:34 ah 16:20:39 AnMaster: he's compiling to decimals 16:20:40 the primary compilation mode isn't binaries, but it will support them 16:20:43 so it has to work for both 16:20:45 ais523: groan. 16:20:47 ais523, stop being oerjan 16:20:52 AnMaster: but fyi, invalidating all compiled code will be hell 16:21:03 ehird, not all compiled, all compiled with constant folding 16:21:13 you'd override a core function, bam, wait 5 hours for the whole system and the REPL and every library and e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g to be recompiled 16:21:14 I guess you would have a list or something somewhere 16:21:21 AnMaster: well I'd hardly let that optimization be disabled 16:21:32 you don't even really need constant folding anyway 16:21:36 ehird, most programs won't redefine +-/* and such 16:21:36 just define a macro that does the calculation 16:21:43 (define foo (compile-time-eval (+ 2 2)) 16:21:49 ehird, so well if you get 5 hours you are doing stupid stuff 16:21:50 maybe you could use some sort of JIT constant unfolding? 16:21:52 store the constant 16:22:03 ais523: i _have_ considered this y'know 16:22:03 replace it with the code that generates it if the assumptions used to make it changed 16:22:04 ais523, sounds like a good idea 16:22:05 also 16:22:11 what do you mean 5 hours 16:22:12 the problem is the binary size would be hilariously stupid 16:22:16 you wouldn't JIT it again directly 16:22:16 AnMaster: ehird, so well if you get 5 hours you are doing stupid stuff 16:22:17 no acceptable 16:22:18 t 16:22:19 only when you run into it 16:22:21 actually, I just mentioned it because "constant unfolding" is such an amusing term 16:22:25 AnMaster: err, no, that's not what I'm doing 16:22:28 I just told you I'm not JITting 16:22:31 you compile a whole unit at a time 16:22:35 ah 16:22:36 right 16:22:44 JITing is probably better for this though... 16:22:52 not for my use-case 16:22:57 oh? 16:22:59 yes :P 16:23:01 well I guess inlining... 16:23:04 common lisp is a lucky bastard 16:23:13 but the Java JIT can do inlining and such 16:23:13 it gets away with it because you can't modify the common-lisp package 16:23:14 iirc 16:23:15 etc 16:23:21 heh 16:23:24 so you can do all sorts of optimizations 16:23:44 ehird, well mark a unit as "need to be-rejitted on next use" then 16:23:49 :P 16:24:04 and when the REPL loop ticks around, 16:24:05 bam 5 hours 16:24:06 fizzie, there? Will jitfunge implement IMAP? :D 16:24:14 lol 16:24:21 which one was IMAP again? 16:24:25 IMAP allows overriding instructions 16:24:31 in SBCL you can do: 16:24:31 * (defun common-lisp:+ (&rest args) 6) 16:24:36 and tell it to ignore the package lock 16:24:38 but it has no effect 16:24:39 like making / point to TURT p 16:24:41 or whatever 16:24:41 because + is inlined 16:24:44 ais523, ^ 16:24:44 etc 16:24:47 in compiled code 16:24:51 sure, (+ ...) changes at the REPL 16:24:56 but everything else has it inlined 16:25:00 AnMaster: ah, ok 16:25:03 that's not very clean :P 16:25:21 Smalltalk has false become: true, which is brilliant 16:25:27 I like the Prolog version even more, though 16:25:30 because you can do it by mistake 16:25:37 ais523, iirc it allows swapping core instructions too 16:25:42 infiniteloop :- repeat, fail. 16:25:44 is an infinite loop. 16:25:47 infiniteloop :- repeat. fail. 16:25:56 is not an infinite loop, and also redefines false to be true 16:25:59 true become: false is beautiful because it's absolutely pointless 16:26:08 the only use of become: is for future values 16:26:08 yes, agreed 16:26:12 can you *swap* true and false? 16:26:17 AnMaster: yes 16:26:20 it's something like 16:26:23 btw, cfunge doesn't implement IMAP 16:26:24 nor will it 16:26:27 AnMaster: I know of no way to make true false in Prolog 16:26:29 #(true false) becomeEveryInArray: #(false true) 16:26:36 retract(true). would do it in some compilers 16:26:37 ais523, hm ok 16:26:39 *interps 16:26:48 ais523: infiniteloop :- repeat. fail. 16:26:48 16:25 ais523: is not an infinite loop, and also redefines false to be true 16:26:48 but most compilers don't let you alter the core definitions like that 16:26:50 erm. 16:26:51 it does? 16:26:53 as they rely on it themself 16:26:58 ehird: look at the full stop 16:27:00 that's two instructions 16:27:03 oh. 16:27:08 that doesn't redefine false to be true 16:27:12 fail is just a core function returning false 16:27:15 false itself still exists 16:27:18 you just can't get at it 16:27:23 fail doesn't return false 16:27:23 also, it's not false, it's No :P 16:27:25 it doesn't return at all 16:27:34 everything in prolog returns Yes or No 16:27:39 that's how I explain it 16:27:42 hmm... 16:27:45 it's one way to think of it 16:27:53 but return values in Prolog are done by unifying an argument 16:28:02 yes 16:28:08 ais523, in Erlang true and false are just like any atoms but that happens to be treated specially by some stuff. No way to redefine them 16:28:56 incidentally, I figured out a language where = is both equality and setting, because they're the same thing. 16:30:25 this works in it: 16:30:34 foo > 2; foo < 5 16:30:38 foo is then either 3 or 4. 16:30:40 ehird: ah, ok 16:30:48 = is both equality and setting in Prolog, too 16:30:49 if you do (bar = foo+2), bar is either 5 or 6 16:30:55 ais523: kindof 16:31:03 and I think you're inventing a language along similar lines to Prolog 16:31:08 but without the annoying restrictions 16:31:13 you'll end up with Proud at this rate 16:31:14 pretty much 16:31:18 ais523: no, it's computable 16:31:27 the fun thing is that every variable starts out in a superposition of EVERY VALUE EVER. 16:31:33 well, you're not going all the way down the Proud path 16:31:36 you know how in swi prolog, if you enter "X." 16:31:39 you get "42"? 16:31:41 but Proud uses exactly the same method 16:31:43 as a joke error 16:31:45 and no, I didn't know that 16:31:56 ais523: it does something like: 16:31:58 every variable in Proud starts out in a superposition of everything 16:31:59 ?- X. 16:32:00 ... 16:32:01 ... 16:32:03 %% 42 16:32:08 not just integers 16:32:08 %% (last release gives the question) 16:32:10 ?- 16:32:16 ais523: not just integers 16:32:17 everything 16:32:19 in mine too 16:32:19 yep 16:32:25 identical thought processes, there 16:32:26 but yes, if you enter "foo" into my prompt 16:32:29 you'll get 16:32:35 but in Proud, you can do things like F(42) = 6 16:32:35 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:32:40 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or ... or "" or "\0" or ... 16:32:44 etc 16:32:51 and F becomes bound to the superposition of functions which return 6 given the argument 42 16:32:51 ais523: that's exactly what mine does 16:32:56 oh, no 16:33:01 mine basically treats 16:33:02 func(arg) 16:33:06 as a variable 16:33:12 oh, ok 16:33:14 so you can do things like 16:33:19 foo(n) > n 16:33:23 foo(n) < (n**2) 16:33:27 now I can see how you do that without solving the halting problem 16:33:34 and foo(n) is the superposition of every value between n+1 and n**2 16:33:40 well 16:33:41 every integer 16:33:47 but wouldn't a recursive definition lead to an infinite loop, though? 16:33:52 foo(n) = foo(n+1)+1 16:33:53 ais523: no 16:33:54 foo(0) = 0 16:33:55 foo = foo 16:33:57 works just fine 16:34:01 since a = a, obviously 16:34:04 ehird: what about my last two lines, does that work? 16:34:04 but 16:34:14 ais523: foo(-1) works. 16:34:15 it's 1. 16:34:19 foo(3) loops forever. 16:34:41 replace everything with an initcaps version, and what I wrote above does work in Proud 16:34:49 how? 16:34:51 what's the result? 16:34:53 there is none 16:35:10 the result is that Foo is bound to the superposition of all functions with those properties 16:35:32 and there is only one, if you constrain N to be integer 16:35:46 ah. mine's more intuitive :P 16:35:47 so the result is the same as if you'd written Foo(N)=0-N 16:36:00 wait 16:36:02 that doesn't work 16:36:12 that isn't consistent with that definition. 16:36:13 .. 16:36:18 why not? 16:36:22 oh 16:36:23 I see 16:36:26 clever 16:36:29 it inferrs the rest 16:36:33 yeah mine just treats func(arg) as a place 16:36:35 like variables 16:36:41 it's not quite inference 16:36:41 which lets you do constraint stuff but still be computable 16:36:47 it's elimination, applied to infinite sets 16:36:49 it comes to the same thing 16:36:51 it acts as inference 16:36:51 :P 16:37:13 if I give my crazy arithmetic system to this language, foo(n) > foo(n) would give the Infinitiest Infinity 16:37:16 my main confusion with Proud is that Russel's paradox is expressible 16:37:19 (it's so big even itself can't match up with itself) 16:37:34 I spent a while trying to figure out what a program that cared about it did 16:37:35 ais523: how is it expressable in proud? I'll tell you what it'd do in mine 16:37:37 in the end, I realised it simply failed 16:38:01 ehird: I didn't work out the syntax for it 16:38:13 well, make a rough one? surely it's easy 16:38:42 but you can say Russell = findall(Set, not(member(Set,Set))) 16:38:56 err, what a copout 16:39:00 where findall finds all solutions in a limited environment 16:39:07 I'm not sure how to specify the environment 16:39:10 that doesn't fail, itself 16:39:12 ais523: in my language you can do pony = russel() 16:39:19 :P 16:39:34 also, my language only uses = for very equality 16:39:37 however, even though you can't tell whether Russel is in Russel, member(Russel,Russel) fails 16:39:42 for contains you do it prolog style 16:39:45 and that is very equality 16:39:51 contains(foo,2) 16:39:57 instead of foo = setswith(2) 16:40:08 ah, ok 16:40:11 i.e., most of the time, you only use = to specify an exact constant value 16:40:11 Proud has return values 16:40:15 yes 16:40:16 well 16:40:18 the syntax is more natural that way 16:40:20 mine treats functions as variables 16:40:22 like I said 16:40:24 so does mine 16:40:30 ais523: basically, (foo) as a statement means "foo is true" 16:40:31 so 16:40:32 foo > 2 16:40:33 foo < 5 16:40:38 contains(foo, 4587345435) 16:40:40 stuff like that 17:07:08 -!- Leonidas has changed nick to Leonidas1880. 17:07:15 -!- Leonidas1880 has changed nick to Leonidas1980. 17:09:34 http://code.google.com/p/doctype/wiki/ArticleHereComesTheSun <-- jesus. 17:12:06 -!- Leonidas1980 has changed nick to Leonidas. 17:17:12 -!- Hiato has quit (Connection timed out). 17:20:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:27:20 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 17:29:58 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:44:52 ehird, wonder what that does if java is *NOT* installed 17:45:01 nothing. 17:45:05 what is it? 17:45:10 http://code.google.com/p/doctype/wiki/ArticleHereComesTheSun 17:45:11 http://code.google.com/p/doctype/wiki/ArticleHereComesTheSun <-- jesus. 17:45:12 that 17:45:17 I didn't ask what the link was 17:45:20 I asked what it was 17:45:20 it's just text 17:45:22 grah 17:45:23 ais523! 17:45:26 IRC is not your personal webbrowser!! 17:45:27 ais523: basically, (foo) as a statement means "foo is true" <-- what language? 17:45:31 AnMaster: mine 17:45:36 ehird, name? 17:45:38 ais523: if you want to read a page, you could open it in a browser! 17:45:39 AnMaster: none 17:45:53 ehird, how much scrollback is needed for context? 17:45:59 ehird: I inherently distrust browsers, I think 17:46:06 I prefer asking questions over IRC, and getting responses as text 17:46:14 AnMaster: 16:28 17:46:17 and it's 17:46 now 17:46:19 ais523, text/plain: http://code.google.com/p/doctype/wiki/ArticleHereComesTheSun 17:46:30 ais523: 17:46:33 Here's a small "gotcha" for web developers. There are a few "magic" properties on Mozilla's DOMWindow interface for supporting LiveConnect that will initialize the Java plugin and all the baggage that comes with it (which, with modern Java plugins, means launching java.exe as a subprocess). Looking up these properties on the window object is all it takes. 17:46:39 For example, take the following sample page: 17:46:41 17:46:42 17:46:44 17:46:46 17:46:53 17:46:54 from now on whenever ais523 asks what a link is we will say it's a goatse. deal? :D 17:46:54 17:46:57 17:46:59 17:47:01 Harmless, right? Actually it's not. It turns out that Mozilla Firefox treats window.sun as a magic LiveConnect property. (I tested with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.6 on Windows.) What's LiveConnect? It was introduced in Netscape 4 to allow plugins to be scripted. Accessing any magic LiveConnect property will start the Java plugin -- even if your code has nothing to do with Java. And starting the Java plugin will load a JVM. Oh, and did I mention that all of this 17:47:05 will happen synchronously? As in, Firefox will stop loading your page and wait for the JVM to start up. And all you did was access window.sun. 17:47:09 "But, but, but..." I hear you sputter. "I'm not accessing the window.sun property!" Ah, but you are. Declaring a global function is like assigning a property to the window object. (The property's value is the function itself.) In order to assign that property, Firefox first looks up the slot before reassigning it, and that lookup... launches a JVM. Synchronously. 17:47:14 The list of these performance-killing magic LiveConnect properties is buried deep within the Mozilla source code. They are: 17:47:17 java 17:47:18 Packages 17:47:21 netscape 17:47:22 sun 17:47:24 JavaClass 17:47:26 well, I did read the article after you told me what it was 17:47:27 JavaArray 17:47:29 JavaMember 17:47:31 In other words, don't define a window-level function called sun(). It will absolutely kill your page's performance, because at least one modern-day browser will think you want Java, because of a "feature" invented by Netscape in 1997. 17:47:34 (Many thanks to Kelly Norton, who researched this issue and brought it to my attention.) 17:47:36 Further reading 17:47:39 LiveConnect on Mozilla Developer Center 17:47:39 oerjan: heh 17:47:40 LiveConnect on Wikipedia 17:47:42 Open JVM integration in the Mozilla.org archives 17:47:54 ais523: does that answer your question? :) 17:48:04 ehird: relatively well, it's a bit crufty though 17:48:15 Excellent. I shall now set up lynxbot. 17:48:24 that would so get banned! 17:48:31 And then we can all blame you 17:48:46 well, no, because I wouldn't use a bot that's that bad an idea 17:48:56 oh, it's not your choice 17:48:59 maybe I should browse with w3m more often 17:49:01 put a link in the channel? lynx -dump to IRC 17:49:07 for those who won't use web browsers 17:49:33 wonder if AnMaster's client autoignored me 17:49:45 ehird: ctcp it and find out? 17:50:03 or do clients respond to CTCPs even from people who are ignoring you? 17:50:19 that isn't consistent with that definition. <-- I have to agree, *tries to figure it out* 17:50:26 AnMaster: it is 17:50:32 what function is there that when you give it 0, you get zero, 17:50:36 oklopol: MizardX: your clients are broken 17:50:36 and when you give it N 17:50:38 you get f(N+1)+1 17:50:47 think about it 17:50:48 they're missing out the word TIME in a CTCP TIME reply 17:50:57 also, ehird's client is the only one that gave the timezone 17:51:05 foo(n) = foo(n+1)+1 foo(0) = 0 so the result is the same as if you'd written Foo(N)=0-N <-- hm... 17:51:07 AnMaster: -3 -> f(-1)+1 17:51:12 ah 17:51:13 -> f(0)+1 17:51:18 -> 3 17:51:26 so, that definition holds for negative numbers 17:51:34 what other function satisfies that laws, apart from foo(n) = 0-n? 17:51:37 there isn't any 17:51:43 so, to boot, you get behaviour for positive numbers too 17:51:43 ais523, does mine give time? 17:51:45 it's a clever trick 17:51:49 ehird, ah hm yes... 17:51:52 true 17:51:53 and Ilari's, oklopol's, evenant's, MizardX's, and Leonidas's clocks are wrong 17:51:58 ehird, it makes my head ache though 17:52:03 ais523: also, ehird's client is the only one that gave the timezone 17:52:08 i love my client. 17:52:32 ehird: this one presumably isn't shareware? 17:52:37 indeed. 17:52:40 CTCP ehird TIME 17:52:43 err 17:52:44 fail 17:52:44 fail 17:52:52 -ehird- TIME Fri Feb 27 17:52:47 +0000 2009 17:53:07 the client I'm on atm is LimeChat, with an updated version of my patch to assign dates from the bouncer when playing the quicklog, 17:53:11 and this theme: http://julianstahnke.com/read/a_theme_for_limechat_colloquial/Colloquial.png 17:53:25 it doesn't seem to be hanging on quicklog anymore, which is nice 17:54:00 wow, that font rendering is messed up 17:54:05 err, no 17:54:07 it's perfectly fine 17:54:09 not as badly as KDE's, but still noticeably 17:54:12 OFC, on a lot of displays it looks bad 17:54:17 you need a high-dpi tft 17:54:21 which, conveniently, all macs have. 17:54:23 ah 17:54:31 on a CRT, or a lower-dpi, yeah, ugly 17:56:27 ehird, looks rather bad, I have seen worse though 17:56:43 if you were on an actual mac with a mac screen it'd look great, like it always does :P 17:56:50 which, y'know, I just said, but I know you don't have scrollback 17:57:33 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:02:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:03:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:04:05 -!- Mony has joined. 18:04:18 ais523: fixed 18:08:04 wow, that was fast 18:08:18 Had to look up the rfc... 18:09:23 MizardX: did you just hack your client? :DD 18:09:43 ctcp *:TIME:?:{ 18:09:43 ctcpreply $nick TIME $asctime(ddd $+ $chr(44) d mmm yy HH:nn:ss zz) 18:09:43 haltdef 18:09:43 } 18:10:25 ah, mirc 18:12:16 I ended up doing about 1/3 of the project, and it was a 10-person project 18:12:43 * oerjan suddenly wonders if programming projects follow something like Zipf's law 18:13:00 probably 18:13:04 except that this was a university project 18:13:11 where we were all meant to be workign equally on it 18:13:56 we just finished a project with one guy doing about 0%, me doing about 20%, and another dude about 80% 18:14:12 the 20/80 law, obviously 18:14:16 :P 18:14:43 heh, I've seen it described as the 90/10 law 18:14:48 90/90 18:14:53 the first 90% of the features takes the first 90% of the time 18:14:59 then the remaining 10% takes the other 90% of the time 18:15:01 fun thing is the 80% isn't even getting the course anyway :P 18:15:04 and the remaining 90% is spent bugfixing 18:15:08 *80% dude 18:15:27 oklopol: wow, you bugfix quickly 18:15:44 he probably stole mizardx's 18:15:46 18:15 ehird: @pl fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap 18:15:46 18:15 lambdabot: fmap (fmap (fmap fmap)) fmap 18:15:50 fmap calculus 18:16:02 no, i didn't steal MizardX's 18:16:11 i did nothing. 18:16:15 hahaa 18:16:17 ehird: btw that is periodic 18:16:24 oerjan: :DD 18:16:25 what does fmap do? 18:16:35 ais523: 18:16:37 18:15 ehird: :t fmap 18:16:38 18:15 lambdabot: forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b 18:16:38 adding 4 fmaps gives the same after a while 18:16:44 iirc 18:16:47 there's also a (Functor ((->) t)) instance 18:16:49 for which fmap = (.) 18:16:53 and also 18:16:54 ah, interesting 18:16:57 (Functor []) 18:17:00 for which fmap = map 18:17:12 maps a function over a monad? 18:17:14 no 18:17:15 functor 18:17:17 ideally, map and (.) wouldn't exist and fmap would be called (.) 18:17:22 ais523: all monads are functors 18:17:24 yes 18:17:25 not every functor is a monad 18:17:28 well, OK 18:17:35 but you're likely to use that sort of thing for monads in practice 18:17:42 yes 18:17:54 fmap = liftM for monads 18:18:04 lambdabot used to have (.) as fmap 18:18:06 we called it Caleskell 18:18:12 because cale - owner of the lambdabot installation - did that :P 18:18:25 it was removed because it was confusing to have the type displayed not be the real type in haskell 18:18:40 succ . [1,2,3] looks nice 18:18:57 18:17 HugoDaniel: oh well, its back to vim for me, bye 18:18:58 18:17 HugoDaniel has left IRC ("fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap vim") 18:19:20 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:19:41 ehird: @. type pl fmap . fmap . fmap fmap fmap fmap (fmap . fmap fmap) . fmap fmap fmap 18:19:41 18:19 lambdabot: forall (f :: * -> *) (f1 :: * -> *) a (f2 :: * -> *) a1 (f3 :: * -> *) a2 b (f4 :: * -> *). (Functor f4, Functor f3, Functor f2, Functor f1, Functor f) => (a2 -> b) -> f (f1 (a -> a1 -> f4 a2)) -> f 18:19:44 18:19 lambdabot: (f1 (f2 a -> f2 (f3 a1 -> f3 (f4 b)))) 18:20:33 that's some type 18:20:53 quite 18:21:08 now you have to find some use for that function 18:21:10 another fun course project story, a lecturer decided he won't bother checking any of the projects, just passes all of them; and it was a fuckload of work 18:21:29 I find that annoying when the lecturer decides to just fail all of them 18:21:36 ehird: @pl \a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z -> t h e q u i c k b r o w n f o x j u m p s o v e r t h e l a z y d o g 18:21:36 that happens? 18:21:36 18:21 lambdabot: (((((flip .) .) .) .) .) . ((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) . (((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . ((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . (((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . ((((((((((flip .) .) .) 18:21:38 or at least give them low marks, but high enough not to annoy the Externals 18:21:40 18:21 lambdabot: .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . (((((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . ((((((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . (((((((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . ((((((((((( 18:21:42 18:21 lambdabot: (((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . (((((((((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . ((((((((((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . ((((((((( 18:21:46 18:21 lambdabot: ((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . ((((((((((((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . (((((((((((((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) 18:21:49 18:21 lambdabot: .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . ((((((((((((((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . (((((((((((((((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) 18:21:52 18:21 sw17ch: but merely creating a new piece of state never bothered me 18:21:54 18:21 lambdabot: [65 @more lines] 18:21:56 discuss 18:22:01 ais523: wouldn't work for me, i'd go tell him he made a mistake grading mine. 18:22:17 well, in this case he marked it in front of us 18:22:22 that's how I could tell he wasn't reading it 18:22:26 I could see what he was looking at 18:23:13 well okay, that just plain assholeness 18:24:19 ehird: you're flipping mad 18:24:33 har har 18:24:45 surely there's a shorter solution? 18:24:50 lambdabot could at least remove the whitespace... 18:24:57 ais523: no, pointless code is verbose for complex stuff 18:25:00 also, that doesn't even type 18:25:04 ehird: @type \a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z -> t h e q u i c k b r o w n f o x j u m p s o v e r t h e l a z y d o g 18:25:05 18:24 lambdabot: Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: 18:25:07 18:24 lambdabot: t 18:25:09 18:24 lambdabot: = 18:26:41 hm how was that pangram y combinator again 18:26:58 "Esoterica. As in programming languages. Not mysticism." <<< wait *not* mysticism? 18:27:06 i think i'm in the wrong place :o 18:27:10 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 18:27:22 :DD 18:27:38 wow, and that was a quit not a part 18:27:45 he was going anyway 18:27:46 obviously 18:27:48 yes 18:27:52 he'd have noticed the topic before now :P 18:27:53 it's still great, though 18:27:56 yes 18:28:02 Yk = (L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L) 18:28:02 where: 18:28:03 L = .abcdefghijklmnopqstuvwxyzr. (r (t h i s i s a f i x e d p o i n t c o m b i n a t o r)) 18:28:05 yes 18:28:06 we know :p 18:28:18 hey, who wants to connect-cycle? I wanna test this limechat regexp :P 18:28:22 meh, I'll try #ubuntu 18:28:22 first . should be lambda 18:28:25 lotsa traffic there 18:28:49 ehird: what does the regexp do? 18:30:22 ais523: makes the quicklog playback look nice 18:30:43 example: 18:30:59 ais523: http://imgur.com/30DEN 18:31:08 there, the playing quicklog/end of quicklog messages are actually notices from myself 18:31:11 but I strip out the name 18:31:17 and your message 18:31:18 was actually 18:31:26 ais523: [HH:MM:SS] foobar 18:31:28 with the date of now 18:31:31 * ais523 opens in w3m to annoy ehird 18:31:35 but it sets it to the date when it was sent 18:31:37 ais523: it's an image 18:31:43 so? w3m handled it anyway 18:31:45 and it looks good 18:31:49 how does it handle it? 18:31:55 by opening ImageMagick 18:32:04 -!- oklopol has joined. 18:32:07 ah 18:32:16 but yeah, there was a slight bug with disconnecting 18:32:17 fixed it now 18:32:18 he was going anyway <<< in fact i was not, that was spontaneous; as was this 18:32:24 heh 18:32:27 - : 'a -> 'b -> 'c -> 'd -> 'e -> 'f -> 'g -> 'h -> 'i -> 'j -> 'k -> 'l -> 'm -> 'n -> 'o -> 'p -> 'q -> 'r -> 's -> ('h -> 'e -> 'q -> 'u -> 'i -> 'c -> 18:32:30 'k -> 'b -> 'r -> 'o -> 'v -> 'n -> 'f -> 'o -> 'w -> 'j -> 'u -> 'm -> 'p -> 's -> 'o -> 'x -> 'e -> 'r -> 't -> 'h -> 'e -> 'l -> 'a -> 'y -> 'z -> 'd -> 'o -> 'g -> 'a1 as 't) -> 'u -> 'x -> 'v -> 'w -> 'z -> 'y -> 'a1 = 18:32:35 oh, ocaml 18:32:36 ski__: OCaml? 18:32:38 what don't you type? 18:32:44 answer: nothing, -rectypes. 18:32:53 yay, -rectypes 18:32:59 ais523: i'm currently on no other channels, so parting and quitting aren't that different 18:33:00 [ehird:~] % ocaml -rectypes 18:33:00 Objective Caml version 3.11.0 18:33:02 # let foo a = a a;; 18:33:02 my supervisor would be mad if I tried to use that 18:33:03 val foo : ('a -> 'b as 'a) -> 'b = 18:33:06 WHO LIKES TYPE SAFETY?! 18:33:07 not me! 18:33:11 ais523: well, you can type any LC form with it 18:33:14 so it kind of defeats the whole point. 18:33:24 ehird: OCaml also has `a type variables as an experimental feature 18:33:34 they work more like Haskell typing, although it's still not quite there yet 18:33:49 but I like it for its use of backquotes, among other things 18:33:52 hm ? 18:34:19 it creates partial types with options 18:34:35 such as "function with an int or float argument, or possibly others" 18:34:40 you mean polymorphic variant types ? 18:34:42 yes 18:34:53 # let foo a = 1+(a a);; 18:34:55 val foo : ('a -> int as 'a) -> int = 18:35:01 then (foo foo) actually works and busts the stack 18:35:11 ohw ait 18:35:13 that's not what i meant to type 18:35:25 i was trying to type 18:35:25 # let foo a = a (1+a);; 18:35:26 :P 18:35:36 even rectypes won't type that 18:35:43 (ais523 : however, i don't think that has anything to do with type variables ..) 18:36:16 well, the type variables get different names 18:36:28 if you have an unknown polymorphic variant type, it becomes `a in type expressions not 'a 18:37:52 hmm, how do you specify an ocaml expressin is a certain value at the repl? 18:38:26 um let doesn't work? 18:38:54 ais523 : the `a there is not a type variable at all, it is a variant (/ constructor) name 18:39:02 oerjan: like? 18:39:13 # let x = 2;; 18:39:44 ski__: ah, ok, I'm not very up-to-speed on OCaml terminology 18:39:48 # let () = ();; 18:39:50 I'm still at the stage of having to look up operator names 18:39:58 although I understand the language philosophy I think 18:40:20 (ais523 : i think it is conventional to start variant names with upper case, though) 18:40:30 oerjan: no, I want to specify the type 18:40:34 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:40:45 err 18:40:46 I meant type 18:40:48 not certain value 18:40:48 <_< 18:40:58 # let x = 2 : Int;; 18:41:12 i think, it's been a while 18:41:24 how while? 18:41:39 2002 or thereabouts? 18:41:58 * oklopol read "Don't use rafb.net for pasting or you die" 18:42:26 would probably work better! 18:42:30 ocaml is kind of pretty 18:42:40 in its ugliness. 18:42:51 the semicolons balance it out more than the elegance of haskell. 18:42:57 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:42:58 it feels like something you can do shit with. 18:43:20 oerjan: 18:43:21 # let x = count -1 : Int;; 18:43:22 Error: Syntax error 18:43:25 don't you mean 18:43:27 let x : Int = 18:43:40 possibly 18:43:48 i thought both worked 18:44:04 i'm trying to do varargs in ocaml :D 18:44:13 ouch 18:44:20 I think it can be done 18:45:44 YES, OCAML CAN DO IT WITH ENOUGH HACKING! 18:47:11 agh, you can't do 18:47:14 #load "foo.ml";; 18:48:42 you can annotate value and function bindings (but not pattern-bindings) with result types 18:48:51 let x : int = 42;; 18:49:05 let f (x : int) : bool = x > 42;; 18:49:22 you can also use type ascription on expressions 18:49:29 how do you do #load "foo.ml";; :P 18:49:31 let x = (42 : int);; 18:49:36 and ah 18:49:40 (the parens appears to be mandatory) 18:50:55 there's also longer forms of ascription : `( :> )' and `( : :> )' for use with subtyping 18:53:01 * ehird looks at the ocaml h elp 18:53:55 see "Expressions" under 19:00:23 simple variadic function: 19:00:26 let rec hello x = 19:00:26 print_endline x; 19:00:28 hello;; 19:00:39 what's hard is passing info around 19:01:35 hm 19:01:42 FILE lacks a way to truncate files 19:01:46 Deewiant, ^ 19:02:59 # hello 1 2 3 4 5 6 0 7 8 0;; 19:02:59 6 19:03:00 9 19:03:02 - : int -> 'a as 'a = 19:03:05 a start 19:03:20 ehird: using recursive types to do variadic functions? 19:03:25 yep 19:03:35 the function in question: 19:03:35 let rec hello_ i x = 19:03:37 if x == 0 then print_endline (string_of_int i); 19:03:39 hello_ (i+1);; 19:03:41 let hello = hello_ 0;; 19:03:50 the trouble is returning a value 19:03:56 a continuation can help for this 19:04:01 but you still have to return yourself 19:04:06 I think you have to use some sort of CPS 19:04:28 I know 19:04:30 you have to do that in haskell 19:04:33 but you have typeclasses 19:04:37 so you can resolve to IO () _or_ a function 19:13:11 oerjan: actually, the vista minesweeper's advanced level is almost twice as big as xp's. 19:13:53 ic 19:18:30 yes, fascinating stuff. 19:18:42 wasn't there a big row about that, or something? 19:18:54 like where? 19:19:13 anyway it's too big, or they should make sure it's actually passable. 19:19:24 -!- Asztal^_^ has joined. 19:19:57 i fail very rarely, but i still can't pass this, it's like playing solitaire 19:21:20 http://www.geocities.com/creationislife/games_screens/Minefield_6D_screenshot_big.gif 19:21:30 lament: oh fuck 19:22:16 6D? 19:22:27 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/Stego/minesweeper1.gif 19:22:45 oklopol: 6 dimensional 19:22:54 lament: truffle swine keeper lol wtf 19:23:01 oh it's decss 19:23:06 ehird: yes, that's why i was confused 19:23:15 yeah decss 19:23:17 what does it mean there 19:23:28 it's minesweeper 19:23:31 played in 6 dimensions 19:23:33 nstead of the regular 2 19:23:40 and you can't see two of them? 19:23:59 well. 19:24:04 that is kinda hardcore i guess. 19:26:36 can't see 2 of them? 19:26:36 huh? 19:26:46 oklopol: the different boards there are on different dimensions 19:26:57 yeah so 4 dimensinos 19:26:59 *dimensions 19:27:19 but i just realized it's the game's name, so probably just 4D mode on 19:30:27 * oerjan googles on a hunch, and is disappointed that mimesweeper is apparently an antivirus program 19:30:50 or something emaily 19:31:08 obvious pun 19:31:36 yes, but a game where you swept mimes would be so much better, right? 19:31:44 Minepolisher 19:31:48 how would that go? 19:31:59 miMes, ais523 19:32:00 Minedigger 19:32:37 oklopol: silently, at least 19:32:38 well. obviously you could make somekinda adventure game or rpg or something 19:32:38 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:32:44 but those are stupid 19:33:14 and bloody. definitely bloody. 19:34:16 ok i found one relevant link http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2006/10/microsoft_mimes.html 19:36:44 -!- Azstal has quit (Connection timed out). 19:38:49 Why does Google Maps seem more useful to me than Google Earth? 19:40:01 because it's simpler and has better ui? 19:40:33 I can't seem to get public transit info on Google Earth :( 19:40:42 -!- ais523 has quit ("dinner"). 20:04:37 hmm, my time reply looks ok. At least to the extent that this crappy timer gives me 20:05:37 and is set to local time, in case you wonder 20:15:25 whoa lot of scrollback 20:16:01 Sgeo, but you can't do it in 3D on google maps! 20:16:04 :P 20:16:24 actually they are useful for different things IMO 20:17:59 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/Stego/minesweeper1.gif <-- what? 20:18:22 it's DeCSS 20:18:25 steganographied 20:18:35 ehird, oh? 20:18:39 * AnMaster google 20:18:45 googles* 20:18:48 you don't know what decss is?!?!?!?! 20:19:02 ehird, isn't it something related to dvds? 20:19:07 * Sgeo doesn't know how to get to DeCSS from the fake Minesweeper thing 20:19:23 yeah key thing or something 20:19:37 ehird, oh you mean that hex string is hidden in that somewhere? 20:19:44 no 20:19:46 the whole source code 20:19:50 oh 20:19:58 in the numbers and question marks 20:19:59 I guess 20:20:02 no 20:20:03 in the image data. 20:20:07 ah ok 20:20:08 do you not know what steganography is 20:20:12 ehird, yes 20:20:13 I do 20:20:32 * Sgeo has no clue about anything steganography related 20:21:54 it _would_ be more awesome if it was in the numbers and question marks 20:22:18 oerjan, indeed 20:22:27 oerjan, or both! 20:24:20 ehird, but if it was in the numbers and question marks, wouldn't it still be steganography? "Steganography is the art and science of writing hidden messages in such a way that no-one apart from the sender and intended recipient even realizes there is a hidden message", well I think hiding it in the visible playing field state would be steganography... 20:27:13 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:34:43 who wants to think up an algorithm for steganographizing in text? 20:35:31 bsmntbombdood: base it on British/American spellings 20:35:57 so you can squeeze 1 bit in every 100 words? 20:36:23 not even, because you don't have access to the original text 20:36:41 Magic soon. Bye all 20:37:16 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 20:39:09 and mixing british and american spellings is suspicious 20:40:47 bsmntbombdood, depends 20:41:01 I have seen source code in some projects mixing it inside one function 20:41:04 spelling it color once and then colour on the next is like wtf? 20:41:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:41:10 bgColour and fgColor 20:41:15 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:41:15 both local variables in same function 20:41:28 then there is mysql with ANALYZE and ANALYSE 20:41:34 that does different things 20:41:45 iirc 20:42:02 bsmntbombdood, and on irc I often end up mixing spellings 20:42:13 though I try to keep to British English 20:43:40 ais523, there? 20:43:43 yes 20:43:54 ais523, I reported a bug in bash 4 a few days ago and got a patch to test today.. 20:43:56 but 20:44:05 + static int 20:44:05 + skip_matched_pair (string, start, open, close, flags) 20:44:05 + const char *string; 20:44:05 + int start, open, close, flags; 20:44:05 + { 20:44:06 wth 20:44:10 new code! 20:44:11 like that 20:44:14 crazy 20:44:20 ugh 20:44:27 i hate k&r style declarations 20:44:37 bsmntbombdood, all of bash 4 uses it it seems 20:45:07 also: 20:45:08 + static int skip_matched_pair __P((const char *, int, int, int, int)); 20:45:13 I wonder wth that does 20:45:23 since it uses old style in the implementation 20:47:35 #if !defined (__P) 20:47:35 # if defined (__STDC__) || defined (__GNUC__) || defined (__cplusplus) || defined (PROTOTYPES) 20:47:35 # define __P(protos) protos 20:47:35 # else 20:47:35 # define __P(protos) () 20:47:36 # endif 20:47:38 #endif 20:47:40 ew 20:50:45 barf 21:01:02 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 21:04:37 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:11:58 it _would_ be more awesome if it was in the numbers and question marks <-- it is, See http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/Stego/ 21:12:08 ehird, you were wrong :P 21:13:29 This wins the "weird spam of the day" award: "Two astronauts ramming in space shuttle" 21:13:40 GregorR, indeed 21:15:38 sounds a bit sheepish 21:40:12 21:13 GregorR: This wins the "weird spam of the day" award: "Two astronauts ramming in space shuttle" 21:40:14 hot 21:40:39 fuck hot 21:40:48 fucking* 21:41:22 * bsmntbombdood listens to some android lust 21:42:20 so, hi. 21:42:25 ais523: I asked #ocaml 21:42:35 you know how printf has a special hack to do this because it's primitive? 21:42:44 they think I can use its type to make arbitrary variadic functions 21:42:44 :-D 21:43:03 ??? 21:43:08 printf isn't primitive 21:43:17 bsmntbombdood: in ocaml, the format6 type it uses absolutely is 21:43:26 because you just Can't Do That normally 21:44:01 va_arg 21:44:24 ehird: ais523: I asked #ocaml 21:44:26 ehird: bsmntbombdood: in ocaml, 21:44:33 do you think I might be referring to... say... ocaml? 21:44:34 ehird: I noticed the first time 21:44:34 i don't get it 21:44:36 as opposed to C. 21:44:40 OCAML IS A PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE. 21:44:48 ais523: I was talking to bsmntbombdood 21:44:53 ok 21:44:59 surely it should have been 21:45:07 bsmntbombdood: ehird: ais523: I asked #ocaml 21:45:19 nobody else was talking 21:45:22 bsmntbombdood: do you get it now? 21:45:31 no 21:45:42 bsmntbombdood: ocaml is a programming language. i am talking about ocaml, not c. 21:45:45 why the interest in OCaml, by the way? 21:45:49 ocaml has a printf. i am using it for stuff. 21:45:51 nothing to do with C. 21:45:53 do you get it now? 21:45:58 no 21:46:04 oh stfu 21:46:08 what language doesn't allow variadic functions? 21:46:12 plenty 21:46:23 for example, most well-typed ones, especially those of the ML/Miranda family. 21:47:56 ais523: OCaml is interesting. 21:48:02 ah, ok 21:48:04 I agree 21:48:12 it has a major flaw, which is that it isn't Haskell 21:48:16 but apart from that, I like it 21:48:19 I dunno, i prefer its syntax 21:48:27 and laziness isn't always the best thing 21:48:29 I don't, the operator precedences are a nightmare 21:48:39 especially given that no operators are overloaded 21:48:48 and so there are about a million of them to fail to memorise 21:48:58 well, okay 21:49:01 but apart from that 21:49:03 I mean, what sort of language has different operators for adding integers and adding floats? 21:49:03 the syntax lokos nice 21:49:05 *looks 21:49:22 the | at the start of a match thing is really clever, though, I like that 21:49:32 I don't, the operator precedences are a nightmare 21:49:44 oerjan: is a pun coming? 21:50:01 how can that be worse than haskell given that ocaml's precedences are predefined and haskell's are not? 21:50:16 oerjan: just try to remember the precedences of else and ; 21:50:21 or comma and space 21:50:27 or a user-defined function and +. 21:50:30 else is an operator? 21:50:34 or any of a billion other combinations 21:50:42 and no, if-then-else is an operator 21:50:52 but I always screw up the else-; combination 21:51:00 oh, also match and | 21:51:14 it's really easy to accidentaly nest matches and forget to end them 21:51:28 Backup scheme: get gigs of porn, steganogarize your encrypted backup in chunks of them, post to the interwebs. 21:51:49 Restore method: Find your images (now mirrored in about five million places), extract encrypted backup, restore. 21:51:53 like the Linus backup scheme, but less open-source related? 21:52:00 ais523: more effective 21:57:25 I mean, what sort of language has different operators for adding integers and adding floats? <-- Ocaml and ASM? 21:57:34 not that they are operators in ASM... 21:57:40 well, ok, asm can get away with it, it has a good excuse 21:57:42 but Ocaml? 21:57:45 *OCaml? 21:57:55 not really 21:58:21 couldn't it figure out which you wanted? 21:58:32 it's hilariously strongly type 21:58:33 *typed 21:58:42 I agree that integer division and float division may be good to separate 21:58:49 like div and / in erlang 21:58:59 but apart from that... 21:59:22 well you need typeclasses 21:59:27 which at the time of ocaml's inception iirc were uncommon 22:00:09 like the Linus backup scheme, but less open-source related? <-- which is? 22:00:40 AnMaster: write something so good that everyone downloads their own copies 22:00:51 so that if you lose it, you can get it back from one of your adoring fans 22:01:09 ag 22:01:10 ah' 22:01:13 ah* 22:05:45 ais523, has torvalds ever needed that? 22:05:51 probably not 22:05:59 it's still an ingenious strategy, though 22:06:04 he could just check it out from git 22:06:31 -!- lament has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:06:34 what if he loses git? 22:06:44 -!- lament has joined. 22:07:24 ais523, he could download the last release? 22:07:38 AnMaster: well, that is his backup system 22:07:46 for those yes 22:07:46 the fact that other people have releases of git to download 22:08:01 I still like the scheme ehird suggested 22:08:20 but where would I get many GB of porn... Oh wait.. the internet? 22:08:52 but then it would have someone else's files steganographically encrypted on it 22:11:30 ais523, well what if both were layered? 22:13:11 ehird, about printf and varadic. You don't need it. io:format("~s ~s~n", ["format", "string"]) 22:13:19 AnMaster: no shit 22:13:21 two arguments, one a list 22:13:30 congrats, einstein... 22:13:34 AnMaster: that's not type-safe 22:13:43 in ocaml, (Printf.printf "" 2) gives a compile-time error 22:13:47 Printf.printf "%i" "hello", too 22:14:00 you can't generate format strings at runtime? 22:14:00 actually, I wouldn't put it past OCaml to have an infinite number of printf operators 22:14:02 that's stupid 22:14:06 yes, you can 22:14:11 err of course you can... 22:14:14 one for each possible combination of arguments 22:14:28 ais523, hah 22:14:29 ais523: well, it does 22:14:34 then how can it be a compile-time error? 22:14:35 they're just folded into one 22:14:46 bsmntbombdood, it can check when possible... 22:14:47 bsmntbombdood: it's kind of complicated. :) 22:14:58 gcc does the same thing for C anyway 22:15:08 er, no 22:15:15 er, yes 22:15:23 GCC can warn about format strings, so why couldn't you do it as an error according to same model? 22:15:30 when the string is constant 22:15:46 not sure how it would handle if the format string was user input... 22:15:54 you can't 22:16:04 unless you have a special *type* for a format string with %s %s %d %s 22:16:06 or such 22:16:13 AnMaster: format string = user input = really bad idea 22:16:18 ais523, yes I agree 22:16:19 still 22:16:28 but taking user input and transforming it to a format string might not be. 22:16:33 oklopol: you can do that 22:16:36 just not use user input verbatim 22:16:40 there's type composition operators to do tha 22:16:41 t 22:16:42 well true 22:16:44 yes, but you couldn't type-check directly 22:16:55 ais523: you can allow the user to build a format string in a safe way 22:17:06 and ocaml does that 22:17:07 because the transforming process would need to be understood 22:17:08 so stop saying that 22:17:46 test.c:4: warning: format ‘%s’ expects type ‘char *’, but argument 2 has type ‘int’ 22:17:55 ehird: sorry, i'm talking about c++. thought that was discussed too. 22:17:55 we know C, bsmntbombdood 22:18:04 gcc does the same thing for C anyway 22:18:04 er, no 22:18:12 that's not the same thing 22:18:16 i don't know anything about ocaml 22:18:21 how is that not the same thing? 22:18:33 apparently not t alking about things you don't understand is a thing of the past, I see 22:19:12 ehird: I don't know what you're talking about, but I dispute that 22:19:25 ais523: what the fuck are you talking about? well, you're wrong. 22:19:36 we're such comedians. 22:19:38 ehird: are you commenting me or bsmntbombdood? 22:19:40 ^ the difference between me and ehird 22:19:50 ais523: SHUT UP YOU IDIOT, er 22:20:00 *hi 22:20:05 the keys are like right next to each other 22:20:13 :) 22:20:20 well going anyway, hf ~> 22:20:35 anyway printf is stupid. 22:20:54 hurrrr why would we use rich types to denote the output formatting hurrr let's just parse strings after % HURRRR 22:22:26 ocaml is ridiculously fast 22:23:31 it uses the even pointer trick 22:23:37 that's why integers are 31-bit signed integers 22:23:41 mm 22:26:13 ais523, hm? 22:26:17 oh I see 22:26:56 ais523, but wouldn't it be slower to compute 31-bit integers... I mean the CPU has instructions for working at 32-bit and you need to mask it off every time you store it back 22:27:09 bitshift, yes 22:27:19 but OCaml programs don't spend most of their time doing integer arithmetic 22:27:20 well true 22:27:30 so it's a speed gain overall, it makes the garbage collection much faster 22:27:36 ais523, any ocaml program that did would have issues 22:27:53 no they wouldn't 22:27:56 they'd just use nativeints 22:27:59 oh? 22:28:04 ais523: btw why does ocaml even need type flags, just for the GC? 22:28:05 or FFI to C 22:28:12 since all typechecking is at compiletime 22:28:15 hm 22:28:18 ehird: it's not type flags 22:28:23 it's size flags 22:28:26 it's a fixnum flag :P 22:28:30 so the GC knows how much to deallocate 22:28:36 ah 22:29:20 * ehird figures out how to type-annotate ocaml functions 22:29:20 what's the even pointer trick? 22:29:22 it's hard... 22:29:30 bsmntbombdood: malloc gives you even pointers, so use the lowest bit as a flag 22:29:38 so, for a fixnum you do 22:29:40 every object is aligned on 2 bytes? 22:29:41 (i<<1)+1 22:29:49 so you can just check the lowest bit 22:29:50 bsmntbombdood: yep 22:29:52 to see if you have a fixnum or an object 22:29:56 ah 22:30:37 * ehird is now certain that what he's always thought is true: he can't learn languages from tutorials 22:30:49 sure, I'll glance over them to get started, but then I just whack out code and google if it doesn't work 22:30:51 well, I learnt OCaml from some pretty awful existing code 22:30:54 gradually I suck less 22:30:57 and then one day I write a program 22:31:00 and realise I know the language 22:31:21 that happened with python, I tried going through diveintopython but it just went over my head for some reason, so I gave up, still, I wrote a few tiny python programs 22:31:24 then one day... bam 22:31:29 I can write python, how did that happen? 22:32:03 ... 22:34:06 what 22:38:04 ehird, that about tutorial: very true 22:38:15 tutorial to get an idea of wth it is about at all 22:38:25 same as you then 22:39:15 and then read some reference manual to find out what bits you missed 22:39:48 ais523: how do you give a function a type sig in ocaml? 22:40:14 using modules and interfaces, IIRC 22:40:20 it's a rather needlessly complex mechanism 22:40:25 err 22:40:28 I just want to annotate a typ 22:40:28 e 22:40:45 let sprintf fmt : ((string -> string) -> 'a) -> 'a = fmt (fun s -> s);; 22:40:46 this almost works 22:40:52 except it types (sprintf fmt) 22:40:56 not (sprintf)-and-bind-the-arg-to-fmt 22:41:28 let sprintf (fmt : (string -> string) -> 'a)) : 'a = ... 22:41:36 ahh 22:41:49 I like that 22:41:51 it's elegant 22:42:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has changed nick to |BeholdMyGlory|. 22:42:31 s/))/)/ 22:45:49 -!- |BeholdMyGlory| has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 22:48:08 * oklopol has learned languages from tutorials 22:48:24 but i've never learned a paradigm from tutorials 22:48:41 how do you learn paradigms? 22:48:48 by playing with them? 22:48:54 sounds good 22:49:33 i usually like to think in terms of esolangs for paradigms 22:49:44 but writing program snippets works well too 22:53:47 Anybody here who can draw an egg stream? 22:54:12 what the heck is that 22:54:34 I don't know. 22:54:37 So can you draw it? 22:55:09 GregorR: you're starting to sound worryingly like David Morgan-Mar, stop it 22:55:09 GregorR: i can! 22:55:21 (egg . (lambda () (egg . (lambda () (egg . ()))))) 22:55:26 "Egg stream" is a pun for "extreme" :P 22:55:30 ais523: it's a well-known danger to esolangers 22:56:28 that was presumably meant to be a pun 22:56:39 not really 22:56:40 okay, I almost have an ocaml thingy that can do: 22:56:57 # sprintf (lit "Your lucky number is " % int % "!") 3;; 22:56:57 just a subcultural inside joke, i guess 22:57:00 type-safely, of course 22:57:08 err 22:57:12 % int % lit "!" 22:57:13 ofc 22:57:38 i think you mean 'egg 22:57:50 bsmntbombdood: well, you can't evaluate (x . y) sanely anyway 22:57:52 that's (egg lambda ()) 22:57:59 i was just using (lambda () ...) as shorthand for the actual object 22:58:02 in a quoted form 22:58:19 `(egg ,(eggs)) 22:59:09 not ,@(eggs) ? (iirc) 23:00:04 oh, yeah 23:00:12 or `(egg . ,(eggs)) 23:00:19 is that legal? 23:00:54 yes 23:06:47 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 23:09:09 GregorR: you're starting to sound worryingly like David Morgan-Mar, stop it 23:09:11 huh? 23:09:27 * AnMaster reads 23:09:36 I can't see any similarities 23:10:02 AnMaster: about not knowing what something is and asking people to draw it anyway 23:10:12 it's a very DMMy sort of thing to do 23:10:22 * ehird meditates on 23:10:22 let (%) (a : (string -> string) -> 'a) (b : (string -> string) -> 'b) -> (string -> string) -> 'b 23:10:33 specifically, implementing it as a composition operator. 23:10:52 ais523, where did he do that? 23:10:58 DMM I mean 23:11:09 he didn't do that specifically 23:11:14 it's just the sort of thing he would do 23:11:40 ah 23:11:50 ais523, I guess I haven't had much to do with him 23:11:56 apart from reading his comics 23:14:05 I wonder if it's possible 23:14:10 think I need another type instead 23:14:25 er, don't you just need to throw away the 'a? 23:15:02 -!- FireFly has joined. 23:15:57 except, actually, I can't 23:16:03 i have to absorb both 23:16:03 hrm 23:16:13 yes, this will not work, I think 23:16:19 ahh wait!! 23:16:27 oh wait you don't actually get a string out 23:16:35 oerjan: for 23:16:47 (int -> string) fmt 23:16:48 & 23:16:50 (string -> string) fmt 23:16:54 it should be 23:16:58 (int -> string -> string) fmt 23:16:59 for 23:17:00 string fmt 23:17:06 and (int -> string) fmt 23:17:07 it should be 23:17:09 (int -> string) fmt 23:17:14 I think I need a different type for fmt 23:17:20 is this some lisp or haskell? 23:17:28 or ocaml? 23:17:40 sigh. ocaml, as above. 23:19:07 right 23:20:07 -!- Leonidas has quit ("An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader"). 23:20:50 that seems somewhat illogical. Wouldn't an ideal world be right, not left? 23:21:35 groan 23:22:11 um wth? 23:22:34 I don't get the joke 23:22:56 oh wait 23:23:00 Welcome to today's episode, where we learn that AnMaster cannot see quit messages :D 23:23:15 I mentally filter them, apart from oerjan's 23:23:19 what? 23:23:25 because oerjan normally leaves comments in quit messages 23:23:26 * Leonidas has quit () 23:23:28 what about it 23:23:42 = Leonidas [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] quit ("An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader") 23:23:51 freenode is buggy when it comes to quit messages as you probably know 23:23:52 ... 23:24:17 er i knew it censored some of them but i didn't know it did so inconsistently 23:24:26 oerjan, oh yes it does 23:24:39 and not censored, randomly lost 23:25:22 by censored, i mean "don't turn up unless you've been logged in a while" 23:25:36 oerjan, it does that too? 23:25:36 that's the person giving the quit message, though 23:25:50 what I don't understand is how AnMaster didn't see it and I and oerjan and ehird did 23:25:52 s/you've/the quitter has/ 23:25:59 indeed 23:25:59 ais523: AnMaster's bouncer is buggy? 23:26:00 haven't you noticed Success as quit message sometimes as well 23:26:10 AnMaster: oh, that's a bug in Freenode, almost certainly 23:26:12 ehird, no, freenode is 23:26:15 it's doing a perror 23:26:19 only errno is 0 23:26:21 ais523, yes indeed. And it also looses quit message 23:26:22 strerror 23:26:23 i've seen Success 23:26:23 not perror 23:26:28 well, ok 23:26:37 I mentally connect stdout/stderr to whereever they ought to be going 23:27:01 ais523: perror outputs a colon and a space 23:27:02 ais523, yes I know about hyperion 23:27:03 :P 23:27:09 (the server software used) 23:27:31 ehird: ah, ok 23:27:37 clog saw the quit message too 23:27:38 what about perror("\b\b")? 23:27:53 heh 23:28:07 parts of it could win "caused most judges to go insane" in IOCCC ... 23:28:18 what's happened to the IOCCC, anyway? 23:28:23 no idea 23:28:26 there was even a Slashdot story about it seeming to have disappeared 23:28:52 ais523, I can get to http://www.ioccc.org/ 23:29:03 intentional misinterpret yeah 23:29:33 i miss the5k 23:29:51 last news from April 2008 23:30:07 which was adding more mirrors to handle the load of releasing the winning programs! 23:30:23 the5k? 23:30:48 it was a competition 23:30:56 make a web-based (javascript, etc, sometimes) toy 23:30:58 in under 5kb 23:31:01 ah 23:31:03 there was Wolfenstein5k 23:31:09 (3d wolfenstein clone in 5kb of js) 23:31:16 (wolfenstein = first person shooter) 23:31:21 stuff like that 23:31:35 wow 23:31:42 it ran a few times 23:31:45 then disappeared 23:32:02 I have the source for previous IOCCC around somewhere iirc 23:32:07 in case it is going 23:32:23 well, that anagolf underload interpreter amazes me 23:32:23 yes all the way from 1987 23:32:25 hm clearly there must be a connection. they have all been abducted by aliens! 23:32:26 even if it randomly segfaults 23:32:38 no 1993? 23:32:51 $ ls ~/ioccc/ 23:32:52 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1994 1995 1996 1998 2000 2001 2004 23:33:01 no idea about other years 23:33:03 there weren't competitions some years 23:33:05 ah 23:33:12 because the judges were so disorganised 23:33:16 hah 23:35:01 by the news there must have been one in 2006, unreleaed 23:35:48 which was presumably no. 18 since 17 was 2004 and 19 had "just" closed 23:36:56 they seem to be about as organized as the Essies, these days :/ 23:36:59 -!- ais523 has quit ("DainDwarf's default quit message"). 23:37:54 oerjan, Essies? 23:38:21 our wiki 23:38:29 oh ok 23:38:36 are we supposed to be organized? 23:39:15 nah but nearly all our contests have crashed before judging... 23:39:45 oh those contests 23:39:52 * AnMaster doesn't care much for them 23:41:03 the second one had some good entries even it wasn't judged. for the later ones we don't even have the entries. 23:41:30 where did the entries go? 23:42:11 they do have wiki articles 23:42:18 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Essies 23:42:29 well the known ones anyhow 23:42:38 not sure if that were all 23:46:39 * oerjan fixes catseye link for granola/m 23:47:40 http://catseye.tc/projects/hunter/doc/hunter.html <--- what does the pinwheel do? 23:55:56 -> bed 23:56:15 * FireFly closes his DS 23:56:21 -!- FireFly has quit ("DSOrganize IRC"). 2009-02-28: 00:00:27 i don't think the + character is actually distinguished in the code, from what i see 00:01:37 oerjan, hm ok 00:19:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:26:25 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 01:03:21 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:04:58 I read about the new one [[Puzzlang]], but now I invented [[Self-modifying Puzzlang]]. I just want to know if anyone looking at the example can figure it out. 01:09:36 They don't record everything on the log file. And they aren't "raw" it just says that but it is faked. 01:13:05 I only see the time and name and message. It doesn't record the commands such as PRIVMSG and NOTICE and the name at the left side, three digit IRC response codes, etc. 01:14:11 So that is how it records notices, well, don't say it is raw if it isn't because that is a lie 01:17:29 This is a message with control codes 01:17:53 It strips out some (but not all) of the control codes 01:18:59 And special messages using the CTRL+A code are not recorded at all 01:24:42 IS NOBODY ON HERE PLEASE 01:25:07 Everyone is on here and responds to CTRL+A commands but no real writing 01:26:57 -!- zzo38 has left (?). 01:27:00 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:27:09 -!- zzo38 has quit. 03:51:09 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:21:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:47:41 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 05:36:57 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 07:29:05 G'night all 07:31:15 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:59:17 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:21:37 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to pears`. 08:21:59 -!- pears` has changed nick to psygnisfive. 08:59:49 -!- Mony has joined. 09:00:40 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:02:30 plop 09:11:20 ploop 09:13:44 wassup ? 09:14:07 not much 09:14:12 went tunnel exploring earlier 09:14:19 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 09:25:37 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:29:27 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:32:19 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 09:33:43 psygnisfive, "tunnel exploring"? 09:34:01 yeah 09:34:14 there are tunnels connecting the buildings on campus 09:34:18 ah 09:34:34 psygnisfive, where is this? 09:34:39 yeah 09:37:36 stony brook university 09:37:42 they're utility tunnels 09:37:47 mostly steam and water pipes 09:38:11 psygnisfive, country? 09:38:16 united states? 09:38:19 ah ok 09:38:22 why? 09:38:32 psygnisfive, just interested 09:38:39 o..k.. 09:38:42 name could have been UK or AU too 09:38:49 i guess 09:38:50 "stony brook" I mean 09:38:56 why does the country matter? 09:39:12 is it unexpected from other countries for there to be tunnels? 09:39:19 not really 09:39:23 ok.. :P 09:39:38 psygnisfive, why do you wonder why I wonder? 09:39:42 ;P 09:40:03 i wonder why i wonder why 09:40:05 i wonder why i wonder 09:40:09 i wonder WHY i wonder why 09:40:10 i wonder 09:40:13 why i wonder 09:40:14 ... 09:40:17 haha 09:40:38 its a poem feynman wrote when he was in like.. college 09:40:41 for an english class 09:40:41 lol 09:41:43 mhm 11:01:17 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 11:11:15 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 11:26:44 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 11:44:40 hmm. self-modifying puzzlang looks orders of magnitude more interesting than puzzlang 11:45:06 psygnisfive: went tunnel exploring earlier <<< you sick bastard 11:48:57 err wait 11:49:23 on actually reading it, i'm not sure why anyone would use 0 12:04:27 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 12:17:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:35:19 fizzie, there? 12:35:58 ^source 12:35:58 http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 12:38:18 fizzie, can't run fugot 12:38:21 get infinite loop 12:38:26 1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1- 12:39:20 ah removing the fungot.dat worked 12:39:21 AnMaster: they'll update it sooner or later you will come to any sort of 1/ 2 the existing content, so i can't use 12:43:45 ^help 12:43:46 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 12:45:59 fizzie, if I save again it doesn 12:46:02 doesn't* work 12:48:04 -!- Leonidas_ has joined. 12:48:26 -!- Leonidas_ has changed nick to Leonidas. 12:48:27 fizzie, anyway I know you use STRN and I made some changes to STRN N (it is faster now) 12:54:09 -!- Slereah has quit. 12:55:19 Hrm. I'm not sure why saving would create a broken fungot.dat. 12:55:19 fizzie: one flew east one flew west one flew over the fnord on this 12:57:45 -!- Slereah has joined. 12:58:37 :D 12:58:44 fungot: that was great 12:58:45 oklopol: yeah you're right pikhq, i was thinking of 12:58:55 fungot: that made no sense! 12:58:55 oklopol: at least on the main site 12:59:02 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:59:06 i see! 12:59:30 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:06:28 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:12:10 fizzie, well it did 14:12:25 %show 14:12:29 ^show 14:12:30 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw 14:12:40 fizzie, how comes ul is listed there? 14:12:43 and not bf 14:25:51 ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+++. 14:25:52 C 14:25:53 o 14:25:53 o 14:26:04 L 14:27:43 -!- SchrodingersCat has joined. 14:49:55 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:49:58 -!- ehird has joined. 14:50:00 -!- ehird has left (?). 14:50:04 -!- ehird has joined. 14:52:12 01:24 zzo38: IS NOBODY ON HERE PLEASE 14:52:12 01:25 zzo38: Everyone is on here and responds to CTRL+A commands but no real writing 14:52:20 zzo38. in here. 14:52:27 amazing. hilarious. best trainwreck ever. 14:53:46 what would we do without him? 14:53:47 ul is listed there because someone has defined a command with that name. 14:53:49 ^show ul 14:53:49 >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>] 14:53:53 * oklopol first thought it was ehird :) 14:53:57 It seems to be the old, brainfucky version of it. 14:54:06 oklopol: :DD 14:54:12 oklopol: reality: stranger than fiction! 14:54:40 (the "doesn't log parts" or something part) 14:54:52 err 14:55:04 (commands) 14:55:39 what are CTRL+A commands? 14:55:46 ctcp 14:55:50 \1 = ^A 14:55:58 PRIVMSG oklopol :\1VERSION\1 14:56:08 shows in terminals as 14:56:12 PRIVMSG oklopol ^AVERSION^A 14:56:22 right right ^char = \code 14:56:32 i guess zzo38 thinks people manually respond to ^As 14:56:33 :D 14:56:47 :) 14:57:07 grah, my system is whirring, i guess I left ocaml running an infinite loop 14:57:38 brb 14:57:44 brb 14:57:48 :| 14:57:51 :| 14:57:55 gggggggggg 14:58:06 * oklopol gggggggggoes 14:58:21 (+g) 15:09:52 -!- olsner has joined. 15:16:20 The type variable name '_b is not allowed in programs 15:16:21 excuse me ocaml 15:16:22 WHAT 15:17:35 -!- SchrodingersCat has quit ("Leaving"). 15:17:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 15:18:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:18:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 15:23:47 "[1] If you really want to meta it up, your string could be a regular expression and your alphabet could be regular expressions, so you'd write regular expressions of regular expressions to see if a regular expression of regular expressions matches your regular expression." 15:23:49 Yo dawg. 15:26:53 sweet 15:39:07 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:43:15 -!- kar8nga has joined. 15:47:43 http://gbracha.blogspot.com/2009/02/newspeak-prototype-escapes-into-wild.html ! 15:47:53 yay, it's smalltalk except better. finally. 15:47:59 (lolwut @ testIncestousSiblings16) 16:12:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:18:37 hi ais523 16:19:34 hi 16:20:31 i have some ocaml code that lets me do this working fully now: 16:21:02 # printf (lit "Hello, " % str % lit "! You are worth " % int % lit " pounds.") "ehird" -57;; 16:21:08 fully type-safe at compile time, ofc 16:21:19 and doesn't piggyback on strings-as-code 16:22:56 nice 16:23:12 oklopol: you are secretly ais523! 16:23:16 confirm/deny 16:23:24 * oklopol covers up 16:23:35 * ehird just invented something truly awful, too. 16:23:36 ehird: that's insane, how? 16:23:38 i... need to go now 16:23:40 I'd love to see that code 16:23:56 ais523: here's a hint 16:23:57 I'm even more shocked that lit and str don't have initcaps 16:24:10 ah, they must be functions, not constructors 16:24:13 yep 16:24:17 int : ('_a, string -> '_a) fmt 16:24:19 type ('a, 'b) fmt = ((string -> string) -> 'a) -> 'b 16:24:22 err 16:24:26 ('_a, int -> '_a) fmt 16:24:27 ofc 16:24:48 ais523: http://pastebin.com/f12c043e1 16:25:01 ah, I think I'm starting to see what you're doing 16:25:13 it took me a bit of hacking to get the definition of fmt right 16:25:17 but I cracked it eventually 16:26:32 mine also lends itself to multi-line formats more than regular printf: 16:26:33 let print_info = 16:26:33 printf ( lit "Hello, " 16:26:35 % str 16:26:37 % lit "! You are worth " 16:26:39 % int 16:26:41 % lit " pounds.\n" ) 16:26:42 you're constructing the type of the function like most languages would construct a value 16:26:43 "ehird" -57;; 16:26:46 yep 16:26:50 * oklopol is too lazy to read that without knowing ocaml :< 16:27:02 oklopol: I'll recode it in Haskell, it's trivial enough 16:27:15 ais523: the best part is that you can make formats do crazy things 16:27:16 for example 16:27:19 you could have a format rev 16:27:23 that reversed the string up to rev 16:27:31 given that this is OCaml, is there any way to make it so you can put a spare % at the start of the format? 16:27:33 fun k -> k (fun r -> reverse_string r) 16:27:40 ais523: heh, no :P 16:27:43 well, yes 16:27:45 have a blank formatter 16:27:47 but it lines up with the ( 16:27:49 which is good enough 16:27:54 yes, I suppose so 16:28:10 I'm just thinking of the match x with\n | One -> 1\n | Two -> 2 syntax 16:28:13 yes 16:28:22 which is one of my favourite bits of language sugar ever 16:28:23 "lit" is kinda ugly imo 16:28:23 ais523: one oddity: 16:28:43 oklopol: yeah, it's just a specialcase 16:28:59 bluestorm: ehird: couldn't the continuation build a string list, and do the concatenation at make_printf time only ? 16:29:00 16:28 ehird: hmm 16:29:02 16:28 ehird: yes 16:29:04 16:28 bluestorm: that should perform better as the current concatenation-chain would give a quadratic complexity 16:29:07 :--)))) *rewrite* 16:29:28 ais523: an oddity: 16:29:29 val sprintf : (string, '_a) fmt -> '_a = 16:29:30 val printf : (unit, '_a) fmt -> '_a = 16:29:32 val fprintf : out_channel -> (unit, 'a) fmt -> 'a = 16:29:35 how come fprintf is 'a, but the rest are '_a? 16:29:45 let me look 16:30:08 hf, need to go again 16:31:20 what type is the argument to sprintf? 16:31:32 it's clearly polymorphic, isn't it? 16:31:37 yes 16:31:44 ais523: it's 16:31:51 ((string -> string) -> string) -> '_a 16:32:00 so if it was of a mutable type, you'd be able to break type safety 16:32:07 er how 16:32:12 I can't remember, it's convoluted 16:32:13 '_a types "collapse" 16:32:16 but ok 16:32:29 ah, it's to stop you having a generic pointer-to-anything 16:32:41 and then assigning one type of value to it and dereferencing as a different type 16:32:43 yes 16:32:46 suppose the argument was 'a ref 16:32:52 which is a legal type 16:33:11 then in different contexts, you could assign one value to it and dereference a different value 16:33:38 that's why your type's '_a, it's so that if you give it a string ref as an argument you can't use it as an int ref later 16:33:49 I think fprintf doesn't have that problem because the type's more constrained 16:34:05 but 16:34:08 they're exactly the same 16:34:13 i mean 16:34:23 # output_string;; 16:34:23 - : out_channel -> string -> unit = 16:34:24 # print_string;; 16:34:26 - : string -> unit = 16:34:28 why the differing results 16:34:53 what's the type of (fprintf stdout)? 16:35:21 wtf 16:35:21 - : (unit, '_a) fmt -> '_a = 16:35:23 ok 16:35:27 so you only get '_a if it's Right There 16:35:31 what the fuck ocaml. 16:36:00 i mean seriously what. 16:37:08 oh god. I just created a monster. 17:03:33 ais523: reader excersise: 17:03:41 make them work for a scanf-alike, too 17:03:42 the same functions 17:03:43 :D 17:04:28 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 17:07:17 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:12:17 nobody wants to inquire about my monster i see ;P 17:12:18 *:P 17:13:12 it's like one of those esolangs that impresses everyone but nobody wants to think about 17:14:17 oh, not that monster. 17:14:22 i have two :-D 17:15:51 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:16:29 what's the other one? 17:18:11 i'd say it but it's not even clever, just awfu 17:18:11 l 17:22:47 hmm 17:22:58 * ehird adds options to the formatters 17:23:06 well, if you can. 17:23:25 val string_of_int : int -> string 17:23:25 Return the string representation of an integer, in decimal. 17:23:27 no options :( 17:26:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 17:26:50 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:26:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 17:31:57 ais523: you know what sucks about ocaml 17:31:59 its mutable strings SUCK 17:32:12 why pick on strings in particular? 17:32:14 what about them don't you like 17:32:22 they're mutable, but fixed length. 17:32:41 oh, really? 17:32:47 yep. 17:32:49 I'm pretty sure there's an operation to extend a mutable array... 17:33:00 yes you have to do it manually 17:33:02 that's ridiculous 17:33:05 low level as hell 17:33:08 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:33:33 ehird: ocaml imperative stuff is all really low level 17:33:38 it reminds me of garbage-collected C 17:34:56 ais523: are records Good To Use? 17:35:06 everything in OCaml is fair game 17:35:21 that's cool. I like that. 17:35:30 ais523: is it because it's loose, or because there's not much cruft? 17:36:05 because it's designed to be paradigm-flexible 17:36:15 you're supposed to mix bits of it according to what best fits what you're doing 17:36:56 Error: The record field label a is not mutable 17:36:57 lol wu 17:36:58 t 17:37:05 you can mark fields mutable 17:37:09 but they're read-only by default 17:37:10 how :P 17:37:14 "mutable" 17:37:17 it's a keyword 17:37:24 I can't remember exactly where you put it 17:37:24 although I don't really need mutability 17:37:25 silly me 17:37:30 but you should be able to find where by experimenting 17:37:44 how do you copy-and-modify? 17:37:48 record{foo=bar}? 17:37:50 that's how haskel ldoes it 17:40:18 there is definitely a syntax for it 17:40:25 I can't remember what it is offhand, though, I've never used it 17:41:30 let lit s : ('a, 'a) fmt = 17:41:30 fun k -> k (fun r -> {length=r.length+String.length s; chunks=s::r.chunks}) 17:41:32 ugly 17:41:34 :( 17:42:59 let append_to_buf r s = 17:42:59 { length = r.length + String.length s 17:43:01 ; chunks = s :: r.chunks } 17:43:03 better 17:45:53 # (lit "abc" % lit "def" % str) (fun k -> k) "abc" {length=0;chunks=[]};; 17:45:53 - : fmt_buf = {length = 9; chunks = ["abc"; "def"; "abc"]} 17:45:55 Getting there. 17:49:14 except I need to use a queue instead, urgh 17:49:17 ... wait, why do I? I don't. 17:57:41 ais523: how can I alias a module? 17:57:43 Data.Mutable.Queue -> Queu 17:57:44 e 17:57:50 module Queue = Data.Mutable.Queue;;? 18:07:29 ais523: my code is slowly becoming a lot uglier and a lot more efficient 18:07:30 oh well 18:07:36 Happy Australian Mailman Reminders Day! 18:08:48 yay!! 18:09:22 ais523: I propose we rename it to "Australian Mailman Mailing List Memberships Reminders Day" 18:09:32 in the spirit of accuracy 18:10:02 also, ais523, are you sure you don't know how to alias a module in ocaml? :P 18:10:24 I don't know all that much OCaml 18:10:33 I just know the subset of it that I've used on my University project 18:11:30 okay, now my code is pseudo-imperative-functional 18:11:38 in usage, it's functional, but it mutates like hell behind the scenes 18:11:48 a good mix 18:13:30 # sprintf (lit "aaa");; 18:13:30 - : unit = () 18:13:32 Hmm. 18:13:36 oh 18:13:52 shit 18:13:55 it doesn't work properly 18:14:38 i broke it, somehow 18:15:09 # sprintf (str % str) "a";; 18:15:09 Error: This expression has type 18:15:11 (string, string -> string) fmt = 18:15:13 ((fmt_buf -> unit) -> string) -> string -> string 18:15:15 but is here used with type 18:15:17 (string, string) fmt = ((fmt_buf -> unit) -> string) -> string 18:15:19 :| 18:15:40 oh 18:15:46 sprintf has one of those stupid collapsing '_a types 18:16:30 grah, and I can't fix it 18:17:11 I wonder what the heck '_a even means 18:23:27 ais523: 18:23:28 # Obj.magic;; 18:23:29 - : 'a -> 'b = 18:23:35 It's always there, somewhere. 18:23:38 yes 18:23:44 Some sort of hidden urge in FP implementor's minds. 18:23:45 I've seen an implementation of it lying around 18:23:47 It eats their brain. 18:23:53 however, it generally causes segfaults in OCaml 18:24:04 And then you see it. Quoth the type signature, "forall a and b, a to b." 18:24:22 # (Obj.magic Obj.magic : int);; 18:24:22 - : int = 136244 18:24:27 I was expecting 666. 18:26:39 ehird: did you write it? 18:26:42 or find it in the library 18:26:46 ah, Obj.magic is its name 18:26:57 that was what my silly talking above was 18:27:00 it always shows up somewhere 18:27:09 in haskell, Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce 18:27:13 in OCaml, Obj.magic 18:27:56 anyway, I like ocaml 18:28:07 it's both a heavy-duty C competitor and a scripting language 18:28:12 Haskell sort of lies in between those 18:29:35 I wonder how to implement a queue on top of lists efficiently 18:29:40 I don't wanna use Queue any more, it's too imperative 18:32:00 actually, I'm surprised how functional my imperative code looks 18:32:26 see for example http://abcdefg.pastebin.com/f59a924d6 18:33:32 well, OCaml proves that functional and imperative aren't that different after all 18:34:10 The type constructor Fmt.buffer would escape its scope 18:34:12 lol wat 18:34:36 it leads to massively obscure error messages, though 18:34:45 just become french. 18:34:46 like Slereah 18:34:48 he'd love ocaml 18:45:50 ais523, hi there 18:45:58 hi 18:46:09 ehird: I thought Slereah liked laziness 18:46:09 ais523, IFFI needs updating for cfunge trunk 18:46:27 I pushed a fix to my copy (which work with cfunge trunk but not last release) 18:46:32 not sure when release will be out 18:47:56 maybe I should do something like #define CFUNGE_VERSION 0x000303 and then use lots of #if CFUNGE_VERSION > ... #else 18:48:22 would only be in effect from next release though 18:48:27 * AnMaster considers a scheme for it 18:49:04 gah, this is irritating 18:50:01 like 0xAABBCCD for aa.bb.cc release and D for "not release but svn after this release" 18:50:07 err 18:50:09 s/svn/bzr/ 18:50:23 * AnMaster has been working too much on projects using svn recently 18:50:27 make it 18:50:31 #define CFUNGE_MAJOR 18:50:34 #define CFUNGE_MINOR 18:50:37 #define CFUNGE_FUCKING_TINY 18:50:43 #define CFUNGE_MINUS_SIZED_VERSION_PLACEMENT 18:51:44 ehird, yes but that means you need to do: #if (CFUNGE_MAJOR > 4) || ((CFUNGE_MAJOR = 4) && (CFUNGE_MINOR > 2)) 18:51:48 or something like that 18:51:53 AnMaster: make: 18:51:57 CFUNGE_CHECK_MAJOR 18:51:58 CFUNGE_CHECK_MAJORMINOR 18:52:00 CFUNGE_CHECK_MAJORMINORFUCKINGTINY 18:52:04 CFUNGE_CHECK_MAJORMINORFUCKINGTINYMINUSSIZEDVERSIONPLACEMENT 18:52:05 ouch 18:52:06 so you can do 18:52:16 CFUNGE_CHECK_MAJOR_MINOR(4, 2) 18:52:21 and suchlikes. 18:52:28 can you use macros in #if? 18:52:32 yes 18:52:40 hm 18:52:44 hmm, I should write a replacement cpp for C 18:52:49 it'd save a lot of trouble 18:52:51 ehird, using m4 18:52:52 :P 18:53:15 nah, I'd just make it a lambda calculus with two types: macro, and parenizedstring 18:53:27 (parenizedstrings automagically add () on catenation) 18:54:38 why is there a reverse correlation between how much a GCC option actually helps and how cool it's name sound? 18:54:42 heh 18:54:59 -fbranch-target-load-optimize2 sounds very cool but isn't really 18:55:24 btw man page says: "Perform branch target register load optimization after prologue / epilogue threading." for it 18:55:36 # repeat n x = if (x == 0) {} (x $ repeat (n - 1) x) 18:55:36 int main(){ repeat (5) { printf("Hello, world!\n"); return 0; } 18:55:40 same binary with and without it seems 18:55:46 err with } after printf 18:55:53 right... 18:56:02 ehird, what sort of language are you trying to simulate there... 18:56:46 also # repeat n x = if (x == 0) {} (x $ repeat (n - 1) x) isn't valid C preprocessor, or do you mean that is how your replacement would look? 18:57:50 AnMaster: lambda calculus, and the latter 18:58:00 { } are parenstring literals 18:58:01 mhm 18:58:05 binary operators, too 18:58:13 (foo SYMBOLS bar) is (SYMBOLS foo bar) 18:58:20 apart from that, regular LC 18:58:28 repeat (5) { ... } looks like C, but actually it's 18:58:32 ((repeat 5) {...}) 18:58:35 where {...} is a parenstring 18:58:50 ehird, that reminds me, what do you think of this (example from an existing non-esolang): 18:58:52 factorial = func(n) { if(n == 0) { 1 } 18:58:52 else { n * factorial(n-1) } } 18:59:06 uh, that's thoroughly boring 18:59:15 ehird, yes but it looks lispy 18:59:18 not really. 18:59:33 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:59:52 (of course it should use an accumulator yes, it was some syntax example) 19:00:21 is it JS? 19:00:26 it's valid JS 19:00:32 ehird, no. It is a language you probably never heard of 19:00:40 named? 19:00:43 Nasal 19:00:52 snot a very good name 19:00:59 ehird, hm? 19:01:03 does it have anything to do with demons? 19:01:04 nasal = nose = snot 19:01:07 and ehird was making a pun 19:01:09 ais523, no 19:01:14 ah 19:01:18 snot = nasal mucus --answers.com 19:01:22 err 19:01:24 snot = 's not = it's not 19:01:28 aha! 19:01:33 that was the missing link 19:01:51 I want some feedback about what opinion you have about [[CLCLC-INTERCAL]] so far. I will add more suggestion even to the page. 19:01:53 ais523, also why do you ask about demons? 19:02:02 AnMaster: have you ever heard of nasal demons? 19:02:06 zzo38, CLCLC? 19:02:08 zzo38: it would be more interesting with an implementation 19:02:10 ais523, no 19:02:27 NOOPTIMISE,OPTIMISE: Selects optimiser on/off. 19:02:29 AnMaster: how have you managed not to hear of those? 19:02:32 shouldn't that be a compiler option 19:02:37 ehird, where is it? 19:02:39 How would I make a implementation? In JavaScript? 19:02:44 ais523, ? 19:02:46 AnMaster: guess (the esolang wiki) 19:02:49 zzo38: INTERCAL is traditionally hard to implement 19:02:51 zzo38: by writing an implementation? 19:02:52 ais523, oh you mean "demon out of nose"? 19:03:03 you might want to try to modify the existing CLC-INTERCAL implemenation 19:03:05 ais523, from undef 19:03:07 AnMaster: yes 19:03:18 ais523, right. 19:04:19 nasal has a rather quirky syntax for being a mainstream embedded scripting language. 19:04:25 I could try modifying CLC-INTERCAL if I have Perl. I will try that soon enough I guess. 19:04:37 you'll have years of fun reading the source 19:05:05 I suspect Claudio Calvelli is the only person who really understands the source, and I'm the only other person who has the faintest idea what's going on in it 19:05:23 Another thing is now gopher can use client-brainfuck. So there is a use for esolangs. The only thing is if it could be made faster 19:05:49 zzo38: is that really what non-esolangers would consider a use for esolangs, though? 19:05:51 ehird, hm threading in python seems as far as I understand to be mostly single threaded (lots of locking) 19:05:51 there are other uses 19:05:56 they make great puzzles 19:06:01 ehird, or have I misunderstood it? 19:06:13 19:05 zzo38: Another thing is now gopher can use client-brainfuck. So there is a use for esolangs. The only thing is if it could be made faster 19:06:15 and nobody's ever written a Forte interpreter in a non-esolang 19:06:17 why does it need to be faster? 19:06:25 AnMaster: see multiprocessing module 19:06:40 apparently there are people who use brainfuck derivatives to teach programming 19:06:51 and personally, I think tarpits are a great way to learn new paradigms 19:07:14 I know a guy for whom BF was his first language. He's an awful programmer. 19:07:19 ehird, I was reading about the GIL (global interpreter lock) and it seemed to work like as soon as you access any python object you need to hold it... 19:07:27 AnMaster: multiprocessing 19:07:28 * AnMaster checks multiprocessing module 19:08:01 I made a hangman game on gopher client-script gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net/@Bgames/hangman/ but you need a compatible client. So far the only one is http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/vonkeror/ and the source-code for the hangman game is at [[BrainClub]] 19:08:31 Which person was BF his first language? 19:08:42 "effectively side-stepping the Global Interpreter Lock by using subprocesses instead of threads" :/ 19:08:50 AnMaster: fork() > pthreads. 19:08:55 zzo38: random person I know 19:08:57 I might try vonkeror. 19:09:03 ehird, Larger overhead though. 19:09:11 AnMaster: not on any decent UNIX. 19:09:20 actually, smaller overhead on Linux, IIRC 19:09:27 ais523, heh really? 19:09:43 * The unary operators OR,XOR,AND, and division, do not exist. 19:09:48 Erm, is it TC with that? 19:09:49 AnMaster: because they both use processes 19:09:54 and pthreads has more bookkeeping 19:09:55 Vonkeror is a web-browser I wrote but it includes gopher support as well, better than other web-browser's gopher supporting. I used brainfuck instead of JavaScript as the gopher client-script because JavaScript is too complex for a simple protocol such as gopher 19:10:04 fork() is COW yes, but I guess you could share memory with shm then... 19:10:10 zzo38: based on conkeror I assume 19:10:17 ehird: zzo38 added a generalised operator that can do OR, XOR, and AND, amongst other things 19:10:21 ah 19:10:27 and unary division has never been particularly useful, that's why it was added 19:10:29 ehird, conkeror? konqueror? 19:10:33 conkeror. 19:10:36 hm ok 19:10:38 http://conkeror.org/ 19:10:41 confusingly similiar 19:10:44 emacs-esque web browser based on firefox. 19:11:00 ais523, unary division... Semantics? 19:11:03 Yes, I added the "cellular automaton" operator (not implemented yet). I have to write how the cellular automaton numbers are specified, which will be different than normal cellular automaton numbers (because, it is INTERCAL) 19:11:03 one of them's probably breaching the other's trademark 19:11:11 AnMaster: x / (x>>1) 19:11:25 I can't remember whether it's signed or unsigned, probably unsigned, or maybe there's a compiler option 19:11:25 also where is this CLCLC-INTERCAL? 19:11:30 esolang wiki 19:11:31 like always 19:11:34 k 19:11:43 ais523: erm 19:11:46 isn't that identity 19:11:53 wait, no 19:12:46 ehird, hm this multiprocessing seems a lot harder to use from the C side though... 19:13:25 I don't think we are violating any trademark for Conkeror anyways, the Conkeror people did not complain about trade-mark violation and anyways they are planning to change the name of Conkeror anyways so when that happens the name will not be similar 19:14:16 Vonkeror is a web-browser I wrote but it includes gopher support as well, better than other web-browser's gopher supporting. I used brainfuck instead of JavaScript as the gopher client-script because JavaScript is too complex for a simple protocol such as gopher <-- better than lynx gopher support? 19:15:34 As far as I know in Lynx (the last time I have tried anyways) it sometimes doesn't use proper line-breaks on gopher menus. And I don't really know for sure, but Vonkeror has better gopher support than *most* web-browsers anyways, including some extra features, but some features are untested and I'm not sure if they work perfectly yet 19:16:38 * ehird downloads xulrunner. 19:17:13 zzo38: does it work on non-windows? 19:17:54 vonkeror that is 19:18:02 Yes, Vonkeror works on all operating systems that XUL runner will work on. It's just that some things in Vonkeror work on Windows that didn't work in Windows in Conkeror, but it still works on UNIX as wel 19:18:22 x/(x>>1) = 2 + (x&1)*2/(x-1) 19:18:47 that's a rather pointless transformation. 19:18:50 so it works better on Windows and just the same on UNIX? 19:18:58 hm I have a question about XUL runner. How much of firefox is written in C/C++ and how much is written in XUL/js/whatever-non-compiled 19:19:04 AnMaster: half half 19:19:09 really hm 19:19:10 all UI is xul/js 19:19:15 most else is C++ 19:19:17 ehird, that is excluding xul itself 19:19:18 I mean 19:19:20 I know 19:19:27 right 19:19:33 No, it works good on Windows and UNIX. But Conkeror has some features not working on Windows. In Vonkeror, these features work on Windows too, in addition to still working on UNIX. 19:20:19 eek, Vonkeror.zip extracts into the current directory instead of a new one 19:20:50 Then create a new directory. You should always list an archive first before extracting it, that's what I always do. 19:20:54 ehird, ouch that sucks 19:21:04 zzo38, still bad style 19:21:08 AnMaster: not zips 19:21:10 it's common for zips 19:21:11 i just forgot 19:21:13 ah 19:21:18 I'm used to .tar 19:21:19 zzo38: I've been meaning to write a script that does that, then unwraps the directories one level if it makes its own directory 19:21:25 and a tar doing that would be considered a sin 19:21:31 so blah.zip with (a, b, c) goes to blah/a, blah/b, blah/c 19:21:37 and blah.zip with (blah/a, blah/b, blah/c) goes to the same 19:22:03 ehird, how would this handle blah.zip with (foo/a, foo/b, foo/c) ? 19:22:11 OK. So if I ever create a tar (or tar.gz or tar.bz2) archive, I will remember to make its own directory in the archive 19:22:14 if it uses some unrelated name it could be confusing 19:22:17 AnMaster: blah/{a,b,c} 19:22:45 ehird, interesting *writes a program depending on directory name being foo and puts it in blah.zip* 19:23:02 that's some rubbish application 19:23:04 :D 19:23:08 yeah 19:23:09 zzo38: ok, going to try vonkeror 19:23:23 zipbombs are very common, tarballs get you shouted at 19:23:26 ehird, but lots of apps on windows have such issues... 19:23:26 *tarbombs 19:23:40 ehird, like MS Office iirc 19:24:00 though that uses *.msi 19:24:13 ais523: really, zip has it right here, it's silly to put that in the file itself 19:24:41 zzo38: where is vonkeror.api? 19:25:06 hm 19:25:13 does xulrunner leak as much as firefox? 19:25:13 What does vonkeror.api means? I don't think there is a file like that. 19:25:17 err 19:25:18 .xpi 19:25:21 I mean, where is the memory hogging 19:25:27 xulrunner or firefox 19:25:29 AnMaster: everywhere 19:25:32 oh 19:25:34 I see 19:25:34 O. You mean .xpi. There is no .xpi you have to install it manually 19:25:38 ah ok 19:25:58 xulrunner is weird on this os 19:26:00 so I can't do the regular way 19:27:10 zzo38: what object hierarchy does your BF-gopher thing use? 19:27:21 hm " xulrunner is weird on this os", from what I heard that seems to apply to most open source projects on OS X... 19:27:33 that is, most non-OS X specific ones 19:27:47 OS X has its own style that's different from most OSs 19:27:50 zzo38: here's how you "compile" vonkeror: 19:27:58 xulrunner-bin --install-app Vonkeror.zip . 19:28:07 that will give you a conkeror program in the current directory 19:28:08 The files for the BF-gopher are: /content/conkeror.css /content/client-brainfuck.css /modules/brainfuck.js /modules/gopher.js 19:28:23 ais523, true wasn't it s/.so/.dynlib/ or something 19:28:28 forgot what the name was 19:28:39 -!- appletizer has joined. 19:28:42 I'm sure ehird knows 19:28:42 so if a program acts perfectly normally, it seems weird on OS X 19:28:46 because OS X isn't normal 19:28:51 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:28:52 zzo38: OK, Vonkeror works 19:28:55 ais523, ah right! 19:28:58 -!- appletizer has left (?). 19:29:01 why is the titlebar green? 19:29:24 ehird, screenshot 19:29:31 That's the tab-bar which is green. The active tab is green and non-active tabs are gray. If you don't like it, modify content/conkeror.css 19:29:32 I can imagine it looks weird on OS X... 19:29:38 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/vonkeror/screenshots/screenshot_001.png 19:30:58 zzo38: I'll try gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net/@Bgames/hangman/ now 19:31:31 hi zzo38! 19:32:21 hmm 19:32:28 does vonkeror let you go to an absolute url in the current buffer? 19:32:33 C-l is relative and C-t makes a new tab 19:33:15 Yes. You just have to include the protocol in the URL. For example, type C-l and then start typing over the highlighted text, such as http://esolangs.org/ 19:33:19 ehird, how does vonker look on OS X? 19:33:41 vonkeror* 19:33:44 zzo38: oh okay 19:34:59 zzo38: I like how gopher looks like an old terminal 19:35:05 in vonkeror 19:36:00 iForget Web 2.0. The time has come for Gopher 2.0. 19:36:05 i can't wait for the media coverage 19:36:12 One of the design rules of Vonkeror is NO ICONS. So if you access a gopher menu (just try any one) you will not see icons but rather the type code, and they are color coded also 19:36:27 "Hacker tool gopher, once defeated by good american values, has now been reborn and evil is spreading through it once again!" 19:37:56 "Compiler version: FreeBASIC v0.20.0b" -- gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0aboutgophserv 19:37:57 :-D 19:38:22 I doubt it will get media coverage. But if there is it might be like that. Maybe I will add that quote to my FORTUNE file in case anyone looks 19:38:29 what, the gopher server's written in BASIC? 19:38:51 it's zzo38's 19:38:52 I think 19:39:37 Yes, I wrote GOPHSERV in FreeBASIC. (The other HTTP+gopher server in FreeBASIC is Grumpy but mine doesn't share the code. Anyways mine supported gopher first) 19:40:09 zzo38: I like how you can click on a download to copy the URL, did you add that or conkeror? 19:40:17 ais523: gophserv source --> gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/5gophserv/gophserv.zip 19:41:05 I didn't even realise it was possible to send files over Gopher 19:41:07 zzo38: it's only 177 lines? 19:41:09 FTP and HTTP, yes, but Gopher? 19:41:14 That copy URL function was there before Vonkeror 19:41:26 well, + 389 for the server side scripting language 19:41:33 that's really tiny 19:41:40 i Forget Web 2.0. The time has come for Gopher 2.0. <-- I told you that before... 19:41:48 that was from zzo38's site 19:41:54 oh 19:42:06 zzo38: is there any example for go5? 19:42:48 There's the URL: handler, in the same directory as GOPHSERV on my gopher site. 19:42:56 ok 19:43:13 ais523, upload you mean? 19:43:19 no 19:43:20 download 19:43:29 ais523, download of course works 19:43:49 Pie are not square. Pie are round. Cornbread are square 19:43:53 I like this fortune db 19:44:01 why do people use http not gopher, if both can send arbitrary files? 19:44:23 ais523: well, you'd have to make links gopher-style to use html with gopher 19:44:25 also, no POST 19:44:42 there wouldn't really be any point, if you use HTML, to use gophre 19:44:43 why would you have to make links gopher-style? 19:44:44 gopher 19:44:48 ais523: because that's how gopher works 19:44:49 I use both HTTP and Gopher, and so do other people who like Gopher protocol. But Gopher is still used much more rarely than HTTP 19:45:14 zzo38: you should invent a way to make a site over the "finger" protocol 19:45:29 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc742 19:45:35 hypertext 1977! 19:45:42 (boring new version: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1288) 19:46:03 The "finger" protocol is close enough to gopher that you can make a site over the finger protocol, just make sure to use the URL gopher://host:port/0selector (remember the zero and it will work with finger too!) 19:46:23 that really works? 19:46:28 cool! how would you do multiple pages? 19:46:45 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:46:58 Yes. The Mozilla built-in gopher doesn't support that because it always uses port 70, but Vonkeror accepts any port so you can do that. Just set the port number to 79 and it will work 19:47:21 hmm 19:47:37 It's zzo38! 19:47:41 HI all 19:47:42 Sgeo: Observant! 19:47:45 I wonder if there are any good fingerds 19:48:38 ehird, tried google ;) 19:48:51 AnMaster: yes. 19:48:57 they all look bloated 19:48:58 s/e /e? / 19:49:01 hm ok 19:49:51 Use GOPHSERV to serve even finger if you don't need some of the features specific to finger 19:50:04 zzo38: where is the gopher hangman source? 19:50:06 ehird, this multiprocessing module in python looks rather cumbersome to use hm 19:50:12 AnMaster: not really. 19:50:13 AnMaster, s/\?/\\\?/ 19:50:32 Sgeo, I don't think ? have a special meaning in the replacement 19:50:34 or does it? 19:50:37 Oh 19:50:41 n/m then 19:50:44 Sgeo, for sed that is 19:50:46 s/e /e? /-> e? hird, tried google ;) 19:50:56 ehird, fail 19:50:57 The gopher hangman was written in BrainClub and you will find the code on the wiki. To view any gopher resource as plain-text in Vonkeror (to view the compiled code), push M-0 (this works only for gopher. For HTTP, use C-u instead) 19:51:02 ehird, the matching pattern has a space 19:51:03 ehird, notice the space after the e 19:51:07 oh. 19:51:10 there's no space in ehird.. or is there? 19:51:20 ehird, any fixed font user would see this... 19:51:23 :P 19:51:26 I did see it, I just misread 19:51:45 Is ehird not using a fixed font? 19:52:02 zzo38, what about a wiki over gopher? 19:52:07 is that even possible? 19:53:00 Sgeo, he might have changed recently, but a few weeks/months ago he said he didn't 19:53:05 zzo38: so you just give back brainclub and it interprets it? 19:53:21 was that brainclub created with that forth thing you made with it?> 19:53:35 Sgeo, because a variable width one looked nicer on irc or something 19:53:36 I guess you could use +ASK forms to send data. Another idea I have (which I will implement one day) is an item code that causes it to retrieve text (as code 0) but allow editing, and then after editing, send the modified contents back to the server. Of course any fields would have to be included in the text instead of other form fields, it could be done like MIME headers on e-mail, or in other ways 19:53:38 less useful though 19:53:44 +ASK forms? 19:54:13 zzo38, hm yes the +ASK ones could work.. but isn't the length limit rather short? 19:54:18 Vonkeror interprets client-brainfuck. I compiled the brainclub file using the compiler (that is on the esolang wiki also, it also requires xulrunner) 19:54:21 + iirc the edit box tends to be a single line 19:54:46 zzo38: is it possible to make a to-brainclub compiler in the language? 19:55:04 I think there is a type for a multi-line field. Vonkeror allows you to change the number of lines that will be displayed for a multi-line field in a gopher +ASK form (by default 8, but you can make it whatever you want) 19:55:16 zzo38, hm ok.. 19:56:23 You wouldn't really compile into brainclub, you would compile *from* brainclub *into* brainfuck. Because Vonkeror doesn't compile or interpreter brainclub, it just optimizes and converts brainfuck into JavaScript (using the "yield" command for input) 19:56:24 zzo38, wait +ASK needs Gopher+ right? 19:56:29 err, right 19:56:31 I meant 19:56:31 oh right 19:56:38 could you make brainclub->client-brainfuck in brainclub 19:56:40 I was thinking of the search stuff then 19:56:42 or would it be too hard? 19:56:46 right +ASK is different. 19:56:59 Yes, +ASK needs Gopher+. Vonkeror partially supports Gopher+ (but I'm not sure whether or not it is implemented correctly, but I do know that non plus gopher works perfectly OK) 19:57:15 right 19:57:44 You could try to make brainclub->client-brainfuck in brainclub if you wanted to, I guess, you just need a EOF marker 19:58:04 reading a word would be hard, I think 19:59:10 where are specs for brainclub? 19:59:26 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/brainclub/brainclub.js 19:59:32 and http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/brainclub/core.bcl 19:59:37 the specs are written in javascript? 19:59:45 yes 19:59:54 beats english 19:59:54 There are no specs, just the JavaScript code to compile it 20:00:04 ehird, just implementation no spec 20:00:05 right 20:00:08 that's a spec. 20:00:14 it defines how the language works 20:00:36 lockless, waitless data structures are fun 20:02:37 there should be a client unlambda 20:02:48 why not 20:03:25 zzo38: What are the commands new in client brainfuck to brainfuck? 20:04:20 Only two commands * to switch tapes and ~ to switch pointers. 20:04:32 there are two tapes? 20:05:21 Yes, two tapes, so you don't have to add all sorts of data to the tape in order to measure where you would go back to, you just have two tapes so you don't need to do that. 20:05:23 how unfeasible would a lockless garbage collector be? I mean most GCs seems to pause the threads while collecting... but could you somehow skip that 20:05:36 not even pause the thread it is collecting for 20:05:45 ... 20:05:51 are you stuck in the 80s? 20:05:54 (a private heap per thread could otherwise be used to not pause any other threads) 20:05:55 gcs have been parallel for _decades_ 20:06:03 ehird, not most open source ones 20:06:07 :/ 20:06:10 umm... no 20:06:12 parallel generational GC 20:06:13 google t 20:06:14 it 20:06:18 a sec 20:06:29 zzo38: Then client unlambda wouldnt' require anything new as it already works fine with things like that 20:06:46 research.microsoft.com... 20:07:40 -!- lifthras1ir has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:08:41 I used client brainfuck instead of client unlambda because someone who wants to write a gopher client that supports it can write it more quickly and easily than an unlambda interpreter, brainfuck interpreters are much easier and quicker to write 20:08:58 Unlambda interpreters are not much harder 20:09:03 You don't have to balance brackets 20:09:06 so an unlambda could be shorter 20:09:08 But if you want to implement client unlambda, feel free to do such a things anyways 20:09:21 ah not related... 20:09:24 they are a lot harder 20:09:33 oklopol: err i don't think so 20:09:35 i do 20:09:44 We focus on parallel, rather than concurrent, collection. In a concurrent collector the mutator and collector run at the same time, whereas we only consider garbage collecting in parallel while the mutator is paused." 20:09:50 zzo38: isn't it just connecting the terminal to a web buffer? 20:09:52 from a pdf discussing GHC 20:09:54 ehird, ^ 20:10:07 I mean what this calls a concurrent collector 20:10:13 AnMaster: ok, i meant parallel concurrent generational GC 20:10:18 hmm 20:10:24 ehird, hm ok *googles* 20:11:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:11:29 seems java has that... 20:11:38 it does 20:11:46 + it's open source, so go take a look at it 20:11:54 ehird, well any one for C? 20:12:13 AnMaster: you can't make a good GC for C 20:12:17 iirc boehm-gc isn't concurrent, it can be parallel though 20:12:18 because memory is just flat ints 20:12:20 ehird, well true 20:12:21 and pointers 20:12:25 you cannot have a precise GC for C 20:12:35 that's why you don't use C apart from to implement a languag. 20:12:37 *language 20:12:37 ehird, unless you include metadata 20:12:55 you could do it with some compiler support maybe, a variant of C perhaps 20:13:22 C++ new stuff would have the needed type info for example, while malloc() doesn't 20:13:30 you would have to remove pointers 20:13:33 case in point 20:13:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:13:42 int *a = malloc(458743598734985793457983457345); write_to_file((int)a); 20:13:43 a = 0; 20:13:46 gc(); 20:13:52 ehird, true 20:13:53 a = read_from_file(); 20:13:59 oh crap, a is a dangling pointer. 20:14:01 ehird, but I don't think that is well defined either 20:14:04 sure it is 20:14:05 ehird: I think technically speaking you aren't allowed to do that in C 20:14:08 ais523: why not 20:14:12 the C standard has all sorts of restrictions on what you can do with pointers 20:14:15 ehird, nasal demons 20:14:16 specifically so garbage collection works 20:14:32 hrm 20:15:48 -!- zzo38 has quit ("I'm doing something else now, I will continue to look at the log in case I missed something"). 20:17:49 anyway has a TTF Lucida around? 20:17:59 lucida mono? 20:18:00 lucida sans? 20:18:29 ehird, whatever makes this website saying font-family: Lucida not use the bitmap Lucida 20:18:35 this rendering less horribly 20:18:39 thus* 20:18:40 that's not helpful 20:19:09 Lucida, Medium 20:19:10 I guess 20:19:20 sans or mono 20:19:21 it seems to be sans from the look of it 20:19:26 People need to replace the term "GLBT" with "GBLT". Support your local gay bacon lettuce and tomato sandwich. 20:19:39 ehird, I have dfont conversion tool around nowdays 20:19:40 btw 20:19:44 gay bacon? bacon from gay pigs? 20:20:05 hmm, looks like I only have lucida grande. 20:20:15 ehird, I have that one too 20:20:36 ln -s lucidagrande.ttf lucida.ttf 20:20:38 close enough. 20:20:53 "font-family:Tahoma,Lucida,Geneva,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;" and that renders with Lucida bitmapped. 20:20:58 hm 20:21:06 ehird, hm What about Tahoma then? 20:21:18 I don't have that one at all 20:21:25 tahoma is an ugly MS font 20:21:27 like really, really ugly 20:21:31 ah ok 20:21:33 like oh my god my eyes fell out 20:21:47 right sounds familiar 20:21:56 AnMaster: imagine verdana, right? now make it uglier. 20:22:13 ehird, verdana is like an uglier Arial... 20:22:21 verdana is like an ugly, chunky arial. 20:22:29 and Arial isn't too bad in fact 20:22:48 arial is awful 20:22:50 I mean, not the best font, but not the worst either 20:22:52 because it's a cheap ripoff of helvetica 20:22:59 ehird, yes 20:23:05 i'm not even exaggerating 20:23:10 99% of people couldn't tel lthe differnce 20:23:14 http://www.ms-studio.com/articlesarialsid.html 20:25:12 ehird, heh 20:29:56 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OCaml#Triangle_.28graphics.29 i love how simple this is 20:35:33 ehird, it doesn't work 20:35:35 as written there 20:35:38 yes it does 20:35:40 File "simple.ml", line 2, characters 11-20: 20:35:40 Unbound value Glut.init 20:35:44 no it doesn't 20:35:53 this c program doesn't work 20:35:55 it says cannot find library 20:35:58 the C program is broken 20:36:05 ehird, so where would the library be? 20:36:09 AnMaster: install lablgl. 20:36:24 hm ok 20:36:51 [ehird:~/Downloads/ocaml-3.11.0] % ./configure -tk-no-x11 -cc "gcc -m64" 20:36:51 Configuring for a i686-apple-darwin9.6.0 ... 20:36:52 The C compiler is ANSI-compliant. 20:36:54 Checking the sizes of integers and pointers... 20:36:56 Wow! A 64 bit architecture! 20:36:58 wow! :DDDD 20:36:59 hah 20:37:00 it's so surpsied 20:37:02 *surprised 20:37:33 ehird, that isn't the usual autoconf configure at all, 20:37:40 there is no "checking if build environment is sane" 20:37:48 it's not autoconf 20:37:53 ot 20:37:55 it's custom 20:38:02 ah 20:38:13 [ebuild N ] dev-ml/lablgl-1.03-r1 USE="glut ocamlopt tk -doc" 381 kB 20:38:22 had to enable glut useflag too.. 20:38:47 ehird, odd that ocamlc error 20:38:50 Unbound value Glut.init 20:38:53 since it said: 20:38:58 $ ocamlopt -I +lablGL lablglut.cmxa lablgl.cmxa simple.ml -o simple 20:39:06 shouldn't it be something like "lablgl.cmxa" not found 20:39:08 or whatever 20:39:13 nah 20:39:16 well, dunno. 20:39:36 I mean C compilers tend to say "no such header" as well as "no such symbol" 20:39:54 ehird, blergh not colourful! 20:40:01 just white 20:40:03 and black 20:40:07 whine :P 20:40:23 ehird, I want ray tracing too! and radiocity or whatever it is called 20:40:30 now that would rock in hardware 20:40:43 would be cool 20:40:43 radio city 20:40:49 nah 20:41:15 ehird, I'm pretty sure I have seen it as one word 20:41:23 maybe I typoed yes 20:41:44 ah yes radiosity 20:42:46 gcc test.c 20:42:58 GregorR, hm yes? 20:43:02 look for a.out 20:43:03 test.c: 3: Error in #include : 404 File not found 20:43:11 GregorR, very funny 20:43:16 I disagree :P 20:43:29 GregorR, oh right I forgot the ~ 20:53:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:56:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:13:14 -!- Mony has joined. 21:16:50 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:17:12 Think of the log-reading children! 21:19:33 Children that read these logs will become educated in things children generally aren't educated in. 21:19:51 yes. yes that is true. 21:20:46 higher math, functional programming and stuff. 21:21:31 higher math, where? 21:21:39 oklopol: here, occasionally 21:21:51 Sometimes Gauss joins while smoking pot. 21:21:59 hmm. yes, i guess kerlo does talk in weird calculus metaphors sometimes. 21:22:01 lambda calculus counts, i think 21:22:44 Calculus metaphor: "First, we assume the universe is a straight line." 21:23:00 the gay sex, on the other hand, is probably nowhere near what most children know already. 21:23:06 or so i assume. 21:23:19 What do you mean, "on the other hand"? 21:23:53 i mean as an example of a channel topic children cannot possibly learn anything new from. 21:23:59 -!- ais523 has quit ("dinner, I'll be back later"). 21:23:59 i think he means what he obviously means 21:24:03 Oh. 21:24:11 glad i could clear it up for you 21:25:13 kerlo: i hear "assume a spherical cow" is well-known 21:25:17 Anyway, I've come to believe it would be a good idea to get a job at some point in my life. 21:25:50 ...aren't you like 9 21:25:55 Ah, but you see, intelligence is all about approximating the universe, and what better approximation to use than a tangent line? 21:25:55 ? 21:25:59 Yes. 21:26:16 kerlo: i hear "assume a spherical cow" is well-known <-- spherical copy on write? 21:26:17 wth 21:26:28 AnMaster: moo 21:26:32 "cow" has another meaning too 21:26:33 Still, having applied to universities, I guess it's time to apply to colleges within those universities. 21:27:11 actually spherical copy-on-write might be useful for a self-replicating automaton trying to take over the universe. but don't tell it that. 21:27:15 i thought you were in some kinda uni already 21:27:26 Nope. 21:27:43 you were talking about some calculus course 21:27:50 but i guess it was something like high school then? 21:27:57 Yep. 21:28:30 we actually had pretty advanced calculus in high school, although very non-rigorous 21:28:38 would've been very useful to learn it 21:28:40 oerjan, how would it work... 21:29:21 well obviously a self-replicating automaton would expand through the universe in a spherical pattern 21:29:45 and because of light speed restrictions, would have to copy information. 21:29:47 That's not necessarily true. 21:30:09 ah, our resident self-replicating killer automaton expert 21:30:23 what other patterns have you used? 21:30:24 well there would be fluctuations of course, but on _average_ you'd expect a spherical expansion 21:30:40 I've never liked school, though. The courses are too slow. 21:30:55 some of those spheres you are copying _onto_ have a tendency to resist the process 21:31:02 slowing it down a little 21:31:10 oerjan: No, on average you'd expect a consistent expansion. Any other form wouldn't take over the entire universe, but could certainly exist. An expanding ring, for example. 21:31:19 kerlo: the trick is to read a book and only look up every 10 minutes and catch up by guesswork. 21:31:49 Yeah. That doesn't help with the homework, though. 21:31:51 (only works for mathy stuff) 21:32:07 What are we talking about? GoL? 21:32:32 No, real-life self-replicating automata. 21:32:38 kerlo: you don't have to do homework, just do them on the fly if asked. 21:32:47 This is all an attempt to get the phrase "spherical copy-on-write" to mean something. 21:33:42 Yeah, homework tends to take a while and be necessary for a good grade. 21:34:17 Make a way for source code to be represented as various 3d models depending on the source code, such that the source code for some copy-on-write code is a sphere. Voila 21:34:25 kerlo: clearly stuff isn't too slow if you need to do all your homework to get a good grade 21:34:32 ...right? 21:35:03 Are you assuming that it's the type of class where 90% of your grade is tests? 21:35:04 (unless you're like me, and obsess about grades enough to do everything anyway) 21:35:21 Sgeo: that's the IOCCC approach, i take 21:35:29 kerlo: hmm, right, i guess your high school is a bit different from mine. 21:36:12 Luckily, I have a single class where the grade does not include homework. 21:36:30 That's kind of offset by having another single class where all of the homework must be done in order to get credit. 21:37:04 *shiver* 21:37:48 Though I don't think I actually need credit for that class... 21:38:45 -!- oerjan has set topic: Esoterica. As in programming languages. Not mysticism. Don't use rafb.net for pasting because they delete pastes. Think of the log-readers. Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. The rawness is a lie.. 21:39:19 just summing up Zzo38's research here 21:41:29 I want to go into a field that I know I would do well in. 21:41:57 But I have little idea what that would be, so I might just freak out and become a high school teacher. 21:42:05 :P 21:42:11 An English teacher, even. 21:42:19 * oklopol is going to be an esolang mathematician 21:42:27 then by a freak coincidence you discover you are really good at it 21:42:41 ...i mean a discrete math researcher ofc 21:43:04 I want to be a professional guy-who-hangs-out-on-IRC-and-says-stuff-nobody-understands. 21:43:31 i'd pay you 21:43:54 The question is how much... 21:43:56 is it unexpected from other countries for there to be tunnels? 21:44:30 in countries older than the USA the tunnels have evolved assorted monsters and stuff so it's not safe to go into them. iirc. 21:45:30 kerlo: maybe you could sell merchandise 21:45:30 older by time of declaration of independence, i presume? 21:45:55 because i never see any monsters here in the sewers. 21:46:01 oklopol: by time of university age 21:46:11 Merchandise... 21:46:13 ah. 21:46:15 since those were the tunnels in question 21:47:19 * oerjan realizes that by declaration of independence his country is younger than the US :/ 21:48:35 21:25 kerlo: Anyway, I've come to believe it would be a good idea to get a job at some point in my life. 21:48:36 21:25 oklopol: ...aren't you like 9 21:48:38 he's 16 21:48:43 i know how old he is 21:48:52 if he was 9 i'd be more jealous of his skillz than I am. 21:49:35 ehird, how much skillz do you have? 21:49:41 0 21:50:00 I think that's an understatement. 21:50:12 ehird is a professional computer user who can install programs and do text processing 21:51:11 oklopol: don't forget mail merge 21:51:14 Then again, maybe it's not. 21:52:10 oklopol: he could get microsoft certified, except it would kill him of boredom. 21:54:54 i love my own voice 21:57:04 ER and UML are so Java... 21:57:09 UML is so stupid 21:57:18 i like it 21:57:22 for the most part 21:58:49 ER, UML... 21:59:22 UM...(L), ER 21:59:29 "what shall we call these projects?" "Er, uml, ..." 22:00:17 ehird: do you like ER? at least it's prettier! 22:00:37 ER? 22:01:02 er, what? 22:01:23 the name comes from entities and relations, i don't remember the exact formatino 22:01:26 *formation 22:01:35 but doesn't really matter ofc 22:01:50 the formatino is a lightweight elementary particle used in printers 22:02:32 it used to be in monitors, but it couldn't handle 3D 22:03:11 oerjan, is this from Uncyclopedia? 22:03:22 no. 22:03:34 i just felt a need to explain the concept 22:05:36 i need to go now................................... 22:05:37 -> 22:11:06 sprintf has one of those stupid collapsing '_a types 22:11:12 value restriction? 22:11:33 yeah what is that thing 22:12:28 you cannot have a polymorphic type on something which isn't syntactically a function 22:12:58 this prevents mutable variables from getting inconsistent types 22:13:21 it's slightly similar to haskell's monomorphism restriction 22:13:52 so that '_a is not allowed to be more than one type in your whole program 22:13:56 iiuc 22:14:22 [ehird:~/Downloads/ocaml-3.11.0] % ./configure -cc "gcc -m64" 22:14:25 oh I love 64 bit. 22:14:42 oerjan: gawd, that's such a wart 22:15:02 ocaml does relax it a bit, some other constant expressions are also allowed iirc 22:16:46 adding a dummy function parameter may help, when it actually _is_ a function 22:17:13 yeah 22:17:14 (well not dummy) 22:17:24 but explicit 22:17:25 eta expand you mean. 22:17:29 yeah 22:18:36 3- (Optional) To be sure everything works well, you can try to 22:18:36 bootstrap the system --- that is, to recompile all Objective Caml 22:18:37 sources with the newly created compiler. 22:18:40 bootstrapping is so awesome. 22:21:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:23:30 hi ais523 22:24:22 hi 22:25:05 snot a very good name 22:25:21 i shall have you hear from my lawyer! 22:25:22 sorry, I know that's your territory 22:25:25 but you were away :( 22:25:29 it depends on the channel 22:25:31 well true 22:25:34 there's another channel where I'm the resident oerjan 22:25:38 oh 22:25:39 I don't do it as well as you do, though 22:25:43 which? 22:25:56 ehird: private channel, not on freenode 22:26:03 well the world needs more puns 22:26:18 * ais523 suddenly realises why oerjan was so good at FRC 22:32:47 I know a guy for whom BF was his first language. He's an awful programmer. 22:32:57 you can write brainfuck in any language 22:33:15 it's nontrivial to write BF in BF 22:33:23 I can speak English in any language. 22:33:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("godnatt"). 22:33:38 kerlo: what does speaking English in Lojban look like? 22:33:43 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 22:34:17 me zoi gy. It looks like this. .gy 22:34:35 wow, Lojban quotation looks so weird 22:34:39 it has a strange use of points 22:36:03 kerlo: how do you do nested quotations in Lojban? 22:36:29 Well, this is Lojban quotation of English text. You can't really nest that. 22:36:35 well, yes 22:36:41 but Lojban quotation of Lojban text? 22:36:51 it's funny enough seeing what it does to proper nouns 22:36:57 If "It looks like this." were Lojban, I would have said me lu It looks like this. li'u 22:37:04 ah 22:37:19 Then you just do nested quotes by using lu and li'u within lu and li'u. 22:37:32 simple enough 22:38:45 Actually, I did that wrong. The sentence {me zoi gy. It looks like this. .gy} means "Something is specific to 'It looks like this.'" 22:39:16 I like the way that languages like Lojban and Prolog let you express crazy overgeneralisations that sound weird in other languages 22:39:34 I'm sure you could say something like "ais523 has some property" in Lojban 22:39:41 relatively shortly and simply 22:39:48 zoi gy. It looks like this. .gy fatci 22:39:52 "It looks like this." is true. 22:39:59 Hmm, has some property. 22:40:37 Yes. 22:40:51 la'o gy. ais523 .gy bu'a 22:41:11 I never realised Lojban had so many apostrophes... 22:41:21 just for fun, can you do the quine version of the epinimedes paradox? 22:41:36 What's that? 22:41:41 "yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation." yields falsehood when proceeded by its quotation. 22:41:44 Hmm. 22:41:49 s/proceeded/preceded/ 22:43:33 that phrase is where the term "quine" came from, by the way 22:43:39 because it was invented by a logician called Mr. Quine 22:43:51 and Hofstadter named the phrase after him, generalising it to any program that printed out itself 22:46:33 I could probably say this: (\x -> x(x) is false)(\x -> x(x) is false) is false 22:46:49 why do you need the "is false" at the end? 22:46:55 You don't. 22:48:26 ((lambda (x) (not? (eval (list x (list quote x))))) '(lambda (x) (not? (eval (list x (list quote x)))))) 22:48:26 la ais523 cu me zo'e 22:48:45 err. 22:48:47 ehird: that's just an infinite loop, though, when expressed in Lisp 22:48:48 (list 'quote x). 22:48:49 (best i can do for ais523 has some property) 22:48:53 ((lambda (x) (not? (eval (list x (list 'quote x))))) '(lambda (x) (not? (eval (list x (list 'quote x)))))) 22:49:00 ais523: so? it expresses the concept 22:49:02 oklopol: ok 22:49:05 ehird: yes, agreed 22:49:05 of course you can't evaluate it on regular hardware. 22:49:11 programming languages don't like paradoxes 22:49:13 but if you could, that'd be how you do it 22:49:18 all we need is something that can run infinite loops in 6 seconds 22:49:25 let x = not x in x 22:49:25 "zo'e" is something unspecified, "me" should convert it into a predicate, and cu would apply it 22:49:31 come to think of it, that's why Proud is so powerful, and so highly uncomputable 22:49:35 it runs infinite loops in finite time 22:49:51 oklopol: that means ais523 is specific to something. 22:49:55 paradoxes only like those paradoxes that don't like themselves 22:49:59 ais523: what if you want a real infinite loop? 22:49:59 kerlo: huh? 22:50:04 me zo'e = is specific to zo'e. 22:50:12 wait is it 22:50:24 Also, ais523 ends in a vowel. :-P 22:50:40 :) 22:50:51 Call him la .ais523s. 22:51:01 "yields truthhood when preceeded by its quotation" yields truthhood when proceeded by its equation 22:51:02 ((lambda (x) (eq? (eval (list x (list 'quote x))) #t)) '(lambda (x) (eq? (eval (list x (list 'quote x))) #t))) 22:51:12 Lojban writes proper nouns from other languages phonetically, doesn't it? 22:51:19 Which would be the same thing as la .aismurecis. 22:51:21 kerlo: i think that "is specific to" thing is just a way to translate it, and it actually just means "convert into verb in some unspecified way". 22:51:26 but i may be wrong. 22:51:32 ais523 isn't the phonetic spelling of ais523. :-)) 22:51:41 yes 22:51:58 oklopol: well, that is what the definition says. 22:52:01 aisfaivtutri 22:52:05 also, INTERCAL so needs a "convert into verb in some unspecified way" operator 22:52:17 I wonder what it would do? 22:52:43 If you want to say that ais523 is identical to something, say du zo'e 22:52:52 my scheme compiler 22:52:54 will be called Ponzi 22:52:59 ABSTAIN FROM FNORDING 22:52:59 kerlo: did you check cll? 22:53:05 awesome y/n 22:53:10 oerjan: ING: syntax error 22:53:22 ehird: y 22:53:24 I don't think CLL contains definitions of everything. 22:53:27 kerlo: no, "ais523 has some property". 22:53:28 is that based on that reddit comment? 22:53:32 ais523: after you convert FNORD to a verb, of course 22:53:37 ais523: STOP READING WHAT I READ. 22:53:38 :P 22:53:47 ehird: it's your fault, you introduced me to reddir 22:53:48 Yes. Although I am so clever I probably could have come up with it myself. 22:53:49 *reddit 22:53:52 After a few, um, years. 22:54:01 why ponzi? 22:54:01 ais523: I apologize profusely 22:54:05 oklopol: ponzi scheme, googler it 22:54:16 Cynical alternative: see US financial system 22:54:20 NO 22:54:25 kay 22:54:38 kerlo: what definition are you talking about then? 22:54:57 I think the official definitions are found here: http://www.lojban.org/publications/wordlists/cmavo.txt 22:55:18 tc languages as ponzi schemes, a survey 22:55:25 Including "convert sumti to selbri/tanru element; x1 is specific to [sumti] in aspect x2 22:55:45 sumti sumti 22:56:23 kerlo: trues you speak. 22:56:40 is that based on that reddit comment? <-- ? 22:56:54 what is 22:57:01 the name? 22:57:06 yep 22:57:13 it makes no sense to me 22:57:13 someone asked what was a good Scheme interp 22:57:17 and somebody said Ponzi 22:57:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme ? 22:57:48 that!? 22:57:51 yes 22:57:52 ais523, oh haha 22:58:42 ehird: see, no reason to google 22:58:53 also i've heard that many times 22:59:11 but knowledge keeps draining out 22:59:17 it's basically a pyramid scam, except that the people participating in it aren't told it's a pyramid scam in advance 22:59:20 * kerlo frowns at his network connection 23:00:07 *scheme, it's not a scam, it's a beautiful concept, don't call it a scam. 23:00:26 it's a beautiful concept, but it requires an infinite number of people to work 23:00:28 with an infinite population, it's the way to victory. 23:01:46 recently i've been wondering why we don't see that many infinity effects even now that internet lets anyone be anywhere at any time. 23:02:01 because the population is nevertheless still finite 23:02:06 although the number of people you can reach is larger 23:02:14 i mean 23:02:23 the ##1234567890 thing was 1000-1300 people 23:02:27 and it was the biggest i've seen 23:02:50 no forums explode at random 23:03:02 mankind is too stable 23:03:05 ? 23:03:15 There should be something that's popular purely due to its popularity. 23:03:19 oklopol: and 400 of them were actively talking, it blew my mind 23:03:28 Okay, I have a nice OCaml environment set up. 23:03:31 kerlo: I'm pretty sure there is 23:03:34 64-bit, does OpenGL natively, etc. Nice. 23:03:49 kerlo: you mean like all celebrities 23:03:50 ? 23:04:04 well, Tara Palmer-Tomkinson is mostly famous for being a celebrity 23:04:14 pretty much all celebrities are 23:04:25 I actually had to hunt down how she originally became 'famous', because the paradox was confusing me 23:04:27 it's not like most of them actually have any extraordinary skills 23:04:37 most celebrities, at least I know what they're famous for 23:04:40 we should genetically modify humans to just breed breed breed 23:04:43 and get infinite humans 23:04:45 ehird: no we shouldn't 23:04:47 super-exponential breeding 23:04:49 that'd be awesome 23:04:51 the world can't support an infinite population 23:04:58 ais523: but, but, best gravitational collapse ever! 23:05:16 I don't want to be part of it 23:05:21 and there's only one planet populated at the moment 23:05:27 go off to some other habitable planet and do it there 23:05:31 so that it won't bother me 23:05:44 SORRY YOU'LL JUST HAVE TO ADJUST. 23:05:54 ehird: you mean like shit covered in icecream is the best-tasting shit? 23:05:59 exactly 23:06:00 *how shit 23:06:16 well yes i'd agree with you, at least can't come up with a more awesome way atn 23:06:17 *atm 23:06:41 * oerjan googles Tara Palmer-Tomkinson 23:06:52 i love htat ocaml triangle rotatey 23:06:54 it's so awesome 23:07:08 * kerlo Wikipedias Tara Palmer-Tomkinson 23:08:04 you know, even after reading the Wikipedia article I'm still not entirely sure what she's famous for, other than being famous 23:08:09 well it's not as if google didn't lead straight there 23:08:19 * Sgeo doesn't know who that person is 23:08:24 that's why I go straight to Wikipedia, cut out the middleman 23:08:48 Sgeo: you probably have to be British to recognise her as being famous, we don't export our fame time-loops to other countries 23:09:00 oh but here the other day i actually found a google search where britannia came above wikipedia 23:09:02 i think ocaml may be my fav language. 23:09:09 wow 23:09:11 that was quick 23:09:12 too bad the britannia article still sucked 23:09:28 15:08:04 you know, even after reading the Wikipedia article I'm still not entirely sure what she's famous for, other than being famous 23:09:28 I like OCaml too, despite it having annoyances 23:09:32 sounds like paris hilton 23:09:39 but paris hilton is famous for having a rich father 23:09:48 Anyway, it looks like Lojban doesn't really have lambdas, so I'll have to make do with SKI combinators. 23:09:52 ais523: well, sure 23:09:56 originally 23:10:05 now she's just famous because she's paris hilton, the famous celebrity 23:10:16 yes, but you still know why she was originally famous 23:10:25 Unfortunately, Lojban doesn't have SKI combinators either. 23:10:25 it's OK for fame to be self-sustaining once it starts, that isn't paradoxical 23:10:30 but it has to start somehow 23:11:30 ais523: are you not really implying it was the Doctor who made her famous? 23:11:42 * Sgeo didn't know why she was originally famous 23:11:47 ais523: you got assigned to a cfj. 23:11:47 oerjan: it needs some sort of timeloop to become famous merely for being famous 23:11:50 ehird: I know 23:11:56 o 23:11:58 I'll answer it later when I see how the other related one is going 23:12:00 and oko 23:13:02 o 23:13:14 oko 23:13:16 o 23:13:22 -(ok) 23:13:31 oko^2 23:13:35 ocaml may not be lazy, but it's really fast, I like the syntax, it's good for scripting and it has great library support. 23:13:50 o4k6o4ko 23:14:04 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Emnanmuuel. 23:14:15 I find ocaml has a few annoyances, but it's a great language anyway 23:14:24 the things I don't like about it are niggles rather than fundamental 23:14:30 it's sort of Worse is Better Haskell 23:14:47 * Emnanmuuel pokes kerlo 23:15:36 ais523: incidentally, does the lack of readline in ocaml's repl annoy you too? 23:15:37 I've done: 23:15:42 alias ocaml="ledit ocaml" 23:15:43 OCaml's only flaws are lack of operator overloading, types not being as flexible as they should be, and not being Haskell 23:15:44 which makes things nice 23:15:49 oh nnoeh, ist's Emnanmuuel!l! 23:15:50 also, I don't use the REPL 23:15:59 I've been compiling not interpreting 23:16:01 for this project 23:16:08 * Emnanmuuel stole kerlo's name 23:16:09 I've used it a couple of times to test things 23:16:13 Well, not real name 23:16:15 But still 23:16:23 but not enough to notice it didn't have a readlinealike 23:18:47 oh 23:18:49 you really should use it 23:21:11 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:21:31 what should i buy? 23:21:45 love. 23:21:45 oklopol: what are the options? 23:21:52 or do you just have some money and feel like buying something/ 23:21:58 buy me a new mac! 23:22:07 Magic the Gathering cards! 23:22:10 -!- Emnanmuuel has changed nick to Sgeo. 23:22:21 a magic the gathering card that serves as a mac! 23:22:37 it's a gas station 23:22:38 so 23:22:43 ah. 23:22:45 buy the gas station. 23:22:48 (1:22) 23:22:55 *i think outside of the box* 23:23:01 buy low, sell high! 23:23:07 hmm, ocaml has no nice-looking objective-c bridge 23:23:09 I shall rectify this! 23:23:20 ehird: that's not outside the box, that *is* the box 23:23:32 buy the foundations of the gas station 23:23:47 then go and sell them to people building a new gas station 23:23:57 and watch as the old one slowly sinks into the ground 23:23:57 -!- MichaelRaskin_ has joined. 23:24:08 great idea! 23:24:19 actually aren't the gas tanks usually underground? 23:24:20 * oklopol considers asking somewhere else.... or just going 23:24:26 yeah 23:24:40 Hi, Emnanmuuel. 23:24:40 23:23 ais523: buy the foundations of the gas station 23:24:40 23:23 ais523: then go and sell them to people building a new gas station 23:24:42 23:23 ais523: and watch as the old one slowly sinks into the ground 23:24:44 one of my new favourite quotes 23:24:51 I'm glad you like it 23:25:00 * oklopol has seen them dig one out 23:25:15 oklopol: buy ice cream 23:25:29 i don't like icecream 23:25:30 it's march, and spring! 23:25:42 buy ice cream-covered shit 23:25:44 well okay i like ice cream 23:25:45 it's the best kind of shit 23:25:54 How dare you claim it to be March? 23:26:09 but it's not a treat, it's just an okay genre of food 23:26:17 kerlo: neener neener 23:26:38 omg exam tomorrow 23:26:43 *2 exams 23:26:49 oklopol: well i don't know how fancy the food in finnish gas stations is 23:27:17 -!- MichaelRaskin_ has left (?). 23:27:27 it's bigger than you might think 23:27:37 still bigger than you think 23:27:41 and now you have it 23:27:46 ok 23:28:20 who was raskin 23:28:22 buy a steak filet mignon with baked potatoe and bearnaise sauce 23:28:44 hmm, not a bad idea 23:28:51 oh wait i'm channeling dan quayle here 23:28:55 *potato 23:28:56 oklopol: #IRP regular 23:29:42 * ais523 is amused not just that #IRP is the only esolang with a channel that actually sometimes gets conversations, but that it has an substantially different set of regulars to #esoteric 23:30:35 huh. well i obviously cannot be a regular in a channel i thought was dead, can i? :D 23:30:53 that's the funny thing 23:30:59 I wonder if the #IRP regulars thought #esoteric was dead? 23:31:13 #IRP isn't dead, it's just pining for the fjords 23:31:17 #esoteric, the zombie channel 23:32:35 well, there is also #perl 23:37:01 ais523: can you think of a non-horrid way to write let pool = (NSAutoreleasePool.alloc ()).init () in ? 23:37:04 specifically, the alloc/init bit 23:37:21 write a wrapper function? 23:37:28 my OCaml programs are full of wrapper functions 23:37:37 nah, there's a _lot_ of method chaining in objc 23:37:39 i am not sure whether zzo38's abbreviation "S-m Puzzlang" is well thought or not 23:37:41 ideally, this'd be possible: 23:37:50 chain NSAutoReleasePool [.alloc (), .init ()] 23:37:52 but it's not 23:37:56 oerjan: what is it? 23:38:01 ais523: self-modifying puzzlang 23:38:02 OR 23:38:06 sadism-masochism puzzlang 23:38:12 I doubt he thought of the latter meaning, he's just a kid. I think. 23:38:40 * oklopol really goes now 23:38:48 _you_ are just a kid, and you thought of it 23:38:57 AFK, eating 23:39:05 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:39:05 yes, but, I'm a kid who had the internet @ 4 years of age 23:39:11 that kind of fucks you up. 23:39:42 i thought zzo38 could be explained in the same way, really 23:39:55 i only got a stable internet connection when i was like 16 23:40:00 until then i only used it for porn 23:40:03 ais523: no ideas? OK then 23:40:05 >_< 23:40:26 ehird: it's self-modifying, I have the wiki recent changes in my rss feed 23:40:30 oerjan: he doesn't seem fucked up, just a bit um... okay, he said he was reading the logs, I'll stop here, but it starts with an a and ends m 23:40:38 ais523: I know, I was explaining what oerjan was saying 23:40:45 ehird: is that different from NSAutoreleasePool.alloc().init() ? 23:41:11 oerjan: isn't that: 23:41:18 NSAutoReleasePool.alloc (().init ())? 23:42:06 ehird: he has it as an icon on his wikipedia user page 23:42:28 oerjan: technically, a.s. != autism 23:42:32 well, subset. 23:42:37 yes 23:42:39 (a.s. is a subset of autism) 23:42:56 i used to be one of those highly annoying interwebs people who self-diagnosed aspergers syndrome to explain their social problems 23:42:59 god I was an idiot. 23:43:05 ehird: does ocaml care about spaces after . ? maybe it does 23:43:10 "This person does not understand Python (or understands it with considerable difficulties, or does not want to program in Python)." 23:43:10 XD 23:43:38 ehird: that's a parody of the babel box wording standardisation 23:43:57 you sure? 23:43:57 ehird: well, my _dad_ is trying to diagnose me with it to explain my social problems... 23:44:09 oerjan: :( 23:44:25 I fail to see how a choice of tool is a moral choice. Unless there's a service that runs by default in Windows that kills babies that I'm missing. 23:44:37 ais523: it's called FeedBillGates 23:46:41 ah so that is why he wants to vaccinate them, so there'll be more to eat 23:47:12 and here i thought it was for a good ethical reason 23:47:25 well, a different good ethical reason 23:50:41 http://hashesoteric.pastebin.com/f81fcfbd <- translation of this program: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/CocoaFundamentals/CocoaObjects/chapter_3_section_2.html to OCaml 23:50:47 using hypothetical bindings that I will write. 23:50:48 who cares? nobody. 23:51:05 I slightly care 23:51:07 so what? 23:51:09 but probably not enough to be worth caring about 23:51:13 heh 23:51:26 er, 23:51:26 word != ObjC.nil 23:51:28 that should be 23:51:31 word != None 23:51:36 and 23:52:01 err 23:52:11 I wonder how you extract a Some? 23:52:13 pattern matching? 23:52:46 but of course 23:52:54 is that the only way in ocaml? 23:53:00 ehird: pattern matching is very common 23:53:06 so, 23:53:07 and used to extract more or less anything 23:53:13 let Some word' = word in 23:53:13 ? 23:53:44 http://hashesoteric.pastebin.com/f1442a195 updatered version 23:53:48 actually if you have a None test then that should probably also be in the match 23:54:00 oerjan: i'm trying to translate the example literally 23:54:02 not be idiomatic 23:54:09 oh well 23:54:10 compare http://hashesoteric.pastebin.com/f1442a195 to the objective-c in http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/CocoaFundamentals/CocoaObjects/chapter_3_section_2.html 23:54:24 the ocaml is easier to read though, I couldn't fix that ;-) 23:54:33 it sorts its command-line arguments, fwiw. 23:55:27 -!- Random832 has joined. 23:55:31 hi Random832 23:55:33 what brings you here? 23:55:37 lotsa wikipedia people recently 23:55:41 ehird: he's an esolangs.org person 23:55:46 who found #IRP but not #esoteric, somehow 23:55:47 something purely by chance, probably 23:55:53 ais523: ah, OK 23:55:55 oerjan: ... 23:55:57 die. :P 23:55:57 well sort of - i'd been reading some stuff on esolangs.org because i found it via the wikipedia brainfuck article 23:56:14 welcome. now get to sacrificing those goats. 23:56:16 chop chop 23:56:21 and wrote a brainfuck compiler (well not so much wrote as ported someone else's to C#) 23:56:32 ^bf ,[.,]!Hello, world! 23:56:33 Hello, world! 23:56:53 fungot is written in befunge 23:56:54 ehird: not haskell! explain why haskell is a lot 23:56:58 http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 23:56:59 behold 23:56:59 ehird: but... i did pre /pre and mediawiki translated the to < 23:57:06 fungot: sorry, fizzie wrote you in befunge, not haskell 23:57:07 ehird: many thanks, i know. i don't have a tailcall instruction though. 23:57:11 wow, yet more useful fungot output 23:57:11 fungot: mediawiki does that with 
23:57:11  ais523: in scheme48 1.3, though. i sometimes write some stuff in my youth fnord teach me something
23:57:12  Random832: xors are conditional inverters :) so i wouldn't have the patience for.
23:57:20  fungot: you could write a fingerprint for subroutines with tail calls
23:57:20  ehird: how did you find this from demi, someone might've pasted it already though;
23:57:21  fungot: are you saying you would have liked more to be written in haskell?
23:57:21  oerjan: i suspect. ( guessing, entropika should know.))
23:57:33  fungot: who is entropika? an entropy-filled pikachu?
23:57:34  ehird: tapio wanted to pay back almost everything) will use strings in lieu of judging, i think i have
23:57:38  is fungot a person?
23:57:39  Random832: ( ( fnord) on a farm? :)
23:57:42  fungot: strings are useful for judging things
23:57:43  ehird: hm problem is a problem. it set-car!'d the car of your list to one with such a thing
23:57:44  Random832: a bot
23:57:45  fungot's a bot, written in befunge
23:57:46  ais523: a pointer is 4 bytes.
23:57:47  Random832: source code: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
23:57:48  ehird: in that case, you should consider: a functional programming thingy? there aren't any
23:57:52  it runs brainfuck, underload, and blabs.
23:57:56  some sort of markov chain?
23:57:59  yep
23:57:59  yep
23:58:04  fungot: i dunno, I've seen functional programming thingys before
23:58:05  ehird: so don't leave them, eat the cheese :d ( re fnord :)
23:58:17  fungot: is cheese like loeb?
23:58:18  ehird: bothner may be right.) still don't cut it these days. not that new users are a bad idea, that
23:58:25  and he stops being coherent.
23:58:29  *it
23:58:53  what kind of optimizations are common in brainfuck compilers?
23:59:00  other than +++++ to an "add 5" type instruction i mean
23:59:00  lots, really
23:59:06  ehird: if entropika loses, the universe ends...
23:59:29  Random832: you can change any loop with balanced [ and ] and no IO to a polynomial , I believe
23:59:46  see http://mazonka.com/brainf/bff4.c
23:59:48  which does that
23:59:48  you mean balanced < and > - they always have balanced [ and ]
23:59:52  err, yes
23:59:52  :P