←2009-03-05 2009-03-06 2009-03-07→ ↑2009 ↑all
00:06:13 <oklopol> i don't get it
00:06:20 <ehird> 00:05 ImInYourMonad: data Pointer x = Cell x (Pointer x) | End x deriving(Show) , that is a a tree, bad rep of a pointer?
00:06:26 <ehird> i hate newbies making BF interps badly,.
00:09:10 <ehird> 00:09 ImInYourMonad: Gracenotes: ok i had 2 questions in one, 1. should i use Parsec? 2. if i dont, how cna i use < and > for my own purpose?
00:09:18 <ehird> does he know how to write an interpreter?
00:09:27 <lament> he doesn't know much at all.
00:09:37 <ehird> lament: ah, is he an idiot?
00:09:43 <lament> no, he's just new
00:09:44 <ehird> I got that impression, wasn't sure.
00:09:49 <ehird> same thing.
00:15:26 <oklopol> he's in my monad
00:17:53 <lament> perv
00:19:45 <ehird> 00:18 tromp_: from 9th instruction on, there's no more appending to the data?
00:19:50 <ehird> about http://esolangs.org/wiki/BCT#Example
00:19:52 <ehird> is he right
00:19:53 <ehird> ?
00:22:51 <ehird> "The Software was not designed to operate after December 31, 1999" - dmd backendlicense.txt
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00:36:51 <Robdgreat> lament: kudos on your... creation
00:44:32 <ehird> Robdgreat: Try "abomination"
00:46:07 <Robdgreat> I was being kind
00:46:27 <Robdgreat> not to mention I have a special appreciation for such musical novelties
00:46:45 <ehird> abomination is a good thing
00:47:15 <Robdgreat> fair enough
00:48:39 <lament> you guys suck
00:48:49 <ehird> lament: what, I like it
00:51:37 <Robdgreat> hey I like it too
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01:02:41 <oklopol> err that ofortuna thing?
01:03:10 <ehird> yes
01:03:14 <oklopol> i see.
01:03:34 <ehird> it's only funny if you know what o fortuna is i guess :P
01:06:50 <oklopol> i see. so what is it?
01:07:29 <ehird> oklopol: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4e/Carl_Orff-Carmina_Burana-O_Fortuna.ogg
01:07:58 <lament> how is it funny?
01:07:59 <oklopol> err yeah i know it's that thing
01:08:15 <ehird> lament: I'm pretty sure gregorr was joking when he came up with it
01:08:16 <ehird> ...
01:08:18 <oklopol> i just assumed it was something else too because... it's not that funny :P
01:08:27 <lament> ehird: i'm pretty sure he wasn't
01:08:39 <ehird> lament: GregorR never doesn't joke.
01:08:40 <lament> oklopol: i'm not sure why it would be funny
01:08:53 <oklopol> lament: you're wrong.
01:48:25 <ehird> 06:07:39 <AnMaster> hm, fast integer square root in C... anyone knows anything good?
01:48:27 <ehird> The quake one.
01:48:33 <ehird> Fast invert square root I think it is called.
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02:48:42 <GregorR> I wasn't joking.
02:48:45 <GregorR> I do think it would be good.
02:49:06 <GregorR> Although (re: lament) I was thinking more about swing-like lounge (e.g. Sinatra-style), but yeah.
02:50:41 <GregorR> Or rather, I was joking in that it would obviously be a parody, but I think it would be a good parody :P
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05:06:32 <zzo38> -1 interleave 0 makes -2/3 is that correct
05:08:21 <zzo38> I made a unlambda compiler into JavaScript http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/esoteric/unlambda/unlambda/htm but probably some thing are missing, such as continuations called from the outside?
05:08:46 <lament> that's pretty important
05:09:36 <zzo38> Yes I know that, but I'm wondering how that is supposed to be implemented.
05:10:13 <zzo38> You look at the source-codes and see what you think about that! I tried to make it compatible with many JavaScript interpreters, instead of only modern versions of Mozilla or such thing as that
05:10:18 <lament> GregorR: oh, that sort of lounge
05:13:36 <zzo38> Please tell me if you found anything else missing in the Unlambda compiler into JavaScript
05:14:12 <zzo38> Oops the URL is wrong it is supposed to be http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/esoteric/unlambda/unlambda.htm
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05:29:02 <zzo38> Oops the URL is wrong it is supposed to be http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/esoteric/unlambda/unlambda.htm
05:29:58 <zzo38> Which you like better Forth or Lisp?
05:31:35 <zzo38> How can I make a continuation called from the outside to be compiled into a Javascript codes
05:31:46 <zzo38> What is the best way
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09:41:26 <fizzie> Relative amount of chatter caused by the noisiest people, at any particular time-of-day (in Finland's timezone, EET/EEST) over the years 2006-2008: http://zem.fi/~fis/test5.png (test6.png for absolute values).
09:46:50 <fizzie> What is interesting is that for most people there's a definite time when they're not talking much (presumably sleeping), but oklopol and oerjan never sleep.
09:47:06 <fizzie> Conclusive proof of their roboticness? You decide.
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09:52:24 <oklopol> ;)
09:52:49 <oklopol> so
09:52:59 <oklopol> why are the stripes in a different order from the nicks
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09:54:23 <fizzie> For reasons of cosmic importance.
09:54:37 <oklopol> also you could have the overall shape be how much talk actually happened.
09:54:47 <fizzie> That's the test6.png.
09:54:51 <oklopol> you would probably see me and oerjan are just relatively awake.
09:55:01 <fizzie> It's not as good a conclusion.
09:55:06 <oklopol> right great minds
09:55:46 <oklopol> it seems this time is exactly where i need improvement
09:55:55 <oklopol> so i will now flood for 20 minutes straight
09:56:09 <oklopol> no actually i think i'm gonna buy me something nice ->
09:58:22 <fizzie> Also test7 is actually test5 but with a 30-minute hamming window instead of a 30-minute rectangular window for the activity-estimation.
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10:09:44 <oklopol> is the newest xkcd crappy too?
10:10:24 <oklopol> i have a hard time telling, once i learn to love the characters, anything goes
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10:13:27 <tombom> xkcd is always terribler
10:14:50 <oklopol> your nick is tasty
10:14:58 <tombom> what
10:15:37 <oklopol> hello i'm oklopol i say things that make no sense.
10:16:56 <oklopol> fizzie: could you somehow make test6 show me and oerjan not ever sleeping too?
10:17:08 <oklopol> also i guess i could've used a "never" back there
10:17:33 <fizzie> oklopol: The day before yesterday a speech synthesizer said to me: <span xml:lang="fi">muskottikukan masennus juustouttaa enteellisesti pikkuisilta</span>.
10:18:02 <oklopol> that's a beautiful sentence
10:18:24 <oklopol> especially "muskottikukan masennus"
10:18:35 <fizzie> oklopol: It continued with: <span xml:lang="fi">Nahistivatko keihäänheittäjät muistioiden tavoin lamatilaa? Ennakkotilausten virkapaikat läiskäyttelevät lupsakkaasti geofysikaalisilta.</span>
10:19:48 <oklopol> "läiskäyttelevät lupsakkaasti", awesome :D
10:20:17 <oklopol> lacks some integrity when you combine them tho, although i've seen worse
10:20:20 <fizzie> Supposedly the content was some random nonsense, but maybe there was a personality of some sort involved somewhere.
10:20:55 <oklopol> anyway turns out "rektio" isn't "rection" in english, but "case government", at least according to this one online dictionary
10:21:09 <oklopol> this is not good because i had a great erection pun.
10:21:41 <oklopol> also random content generated by what, where?
10:22:17 <oklopol> i mean that's apart from the "case government" errors, that's pretty perfect.
10:23:10 <fizzie> I don't know what generated it; it was just a speech synthesis evaluation test I was asked to listen to and fill.
10:23:32 <oklopol> well was it good?
10:24:03 <fizzie> It was better than what I thought it would be, but not very natural.
10:24:20 <fizzie> I think I kept one of those files at http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/mp3.mp3
10:24:39 <fizzie> (Since someone on another channel said "mp3s or did not happen".)
10:24:52 <oklopol> hmm
10:25:20 <oklopol> well the voice sounds pretty natural, just not the... whaddyacallit :)
10:26:16 <fizzie> It's some sort of HMM-based synthesis, where they use the speech recognition speaker adaptation stuff to mangle things so that you can feed it speech, and then the synthesized output will sound like the same person.
10:26:20 <oklopol> i think the main problem is all words are stressed pretty much equally
10:26:30 <oklopol> yeah i assumed
10:26:56 <oklopol> because that sounds like sampled clips from a real human
10:27:08 <fizzie> Well, as far as I know it's actually not.
10:27:14 <oklopol> except it is still very close to the canonical computer voice
10:27:25 <oklopol> so that's would be a clue to the other direction
10:27:57 <oklopol> fizzie: maybe it's recorded clips from a commercial speech synhesizer?
10:28:03 <oklopol> *synthesizer
10:28:57 <oklopol> also i guess i forgot completely about the shop.
10:29:07 <fizzie> It shouldn't be concatenative synthesis (i.e. recorded clips) at all. At least in the strict sense of recorded waveforms. Certainly it's based on speech that a real person has spoken, though.
10:29:29 <fizzie> I don't know the details, it's not my project. I think the web-evaluation was part of the http://www.emime.org/ project.
10:29:50 <fizzie> Given that their goal is "personalised speech-to-speech translation, such that the a user’s spoken input in one language
10:30:00 <fizzie> is used to produce spoken output in another language, while continuing to sound like the user’s voice", at least they don't aim low.
10:30:10 <oklopol> ha
10:30:11 <oklopol> :D
10:30:45 <oklopol> could be useful in a movie where bond needs to know armenian.
10:31:24 <oklopol> anyway the shop, which i guess would be mcdonalds in this case ->
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11:57:35 <kerlo> So, regarding xkcd.
11:57:54 <kerlo> If lack of correlation implies lack of causation, then correlation implies causation.
11:58:11 <kerlo> Where "implies" means "suggests" more than "logically requires".
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12:01:26 <oklopol> yeah that's not true
12:01:47 <oklopol> at least not in any real sense
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12:25:47 <oerjan> <fizzie> But I'm surprised that the glagolitic capital letter spidery ha was free-for-taking at ..ws. Would have thought someone had already used it.
12:26:02 <oerjan> O_o
12:33:39 <oerjan> <fizzie> What is interesting is that for most people there's a definite time when they're not talking much (presumably sleeping), but oklopol and oerjan never sleep.
12:33:44 * oerjan cackles evilly
12:33:54 <oklopol> bots don't cackle.
12:34:04 <oerjan> true that.
12:34:07 * oklopol goes back to sleep
12:37:21 <oerjan> also, tusho = ehird
12:38:23 <fizzie> Well, yes, but a silly Perl script can't be expected to know that sort of stuff.
12:39:20 <oerjan> also, the colors on the graph and on the descriptions don't match
12:40:01 <oerjan> hm oklopol already implied that
12:40:32 <fizzie> Sure they do, they're just in a different-ish order. Namely, reversed.
12:41:12 <oerjan> except "Others"
12:41:15 <oklopol> yeah, it's an iq test to know whether the colors or the nicks are out of order
12:41:43 <oerjan> i assume Others is really at the bottom :D
12:41:58 <fizzie> If you must know, the ordering is such that all "others" go to an array index 0, while array indices 1..N correspond to the top-N noisiest people, with index 1 being the noisiest; then I draw indices 0..N from bottom to top, but the nick-list in the "sensible order" for indices 1..N, and then 'Others' separately just so that it doesn't look like a nickname.
12:42:53 <oerjan> but should i trust the colors or the order?
12:42:58 <fizzie> The colors.
12:43:00 <fizzie> Trust the colors.
12:43:00 <oklopol> colors
12:43:07 <oklopol> you know, the colors.
12:43:16 <oklopol> trust them
12:43:57 <fizzie> Green is not an enemy, like a well-known Windows media-player vizualization name says. Or something like that, anyway; I just remember the Finnish translation.
12:44:12 <fizzie> ("Vihreä ei ole vihollinen.")
12:46:14 <oerjan> actually the absolute graph shows that oklopol and i are not really constant, we just are in phase with the channel.
12:46:55 <oerjan> but then so is everyone to a degree
12:47:12 <fizzie> Since it seems to have confused a lot of people, I just flipped the nickname ordering to match the colors. (Unfortunately at the same time I got the more curvaceous hamming-windowed graphs there.)
12:48:51 <oerjan> of course evil rumors will claim that we still have completely messed up sleeping rhythms.
12:49:26 <pikhq> Hmm. I, myself, prefer not sleeping.
12:49:30 <pikhq> ;p
12:50:48 <oerjan> pikhq: wait a minute, by the graph you are not supposed to be here now
12:50:50 <fizzie> While at it, I special-cased ehird and tusho together, so they passed anmaster and achieved the coveted red graph-color.
12:51:35 <oerjan> which gave bsmntbombdood a slot, i see
12:51:51 <fizzie> Yes, and his shape is rather different from the others.
12:51:53 <pikhq> I screw things up by talking at truly random times.
12:52:01 <fizzie> Well, unless you count "Others".
12:52:34 <oerjan> i say we ban that "Others" guy for constantly spamming
12:52:51 <pikhq> I concur.
12:54:28 <pikhq> Hmm. Your script was set up based on who talked most in here? Nice work...
12:56:18 <pikhq> Also, I'm surprised to see that I still register on that... I've not exactly talked that much in here recently.
12:56:39 <oerjan> it's 2006-2008
12:56:45 <pikhq> Ah.
12:57:03 <pikhq> Well, then.
12:57:26 <fizzie> If you want some raw underlying numbers, http://zem.fi/~fis/test5.txt has the total-number-of-lines-in-my-2006-2008-logs.
12:57:55 <fizzie> You can just take #9 and largers ranks to know who to ban to get rid of that annoying "Others" guy.
12:58:26 * pikhq gleefuly bans GregorR.
12:58:57 <pikhq> Fizzie, too.
12:59:09 <oerjan> <oklopol> this is not good because i had a great erection pun.
12:59:18 <pikhq> Wow.
12:59:24 <oerjan> finns are not allowed to do that, only japanese
13:00:08 <oerjan> pikhq: are you shocked and disturbed?
13:00:11 * pikhq goes to consume breakfast, for he has stayed up for it
13:03:12 <AnMaster> <fizzie> While at it, I special-cased ehird and tusho together, so they passed anmaster and achieved the coveted red graph-color. <-- ?
13:03:14 <AnMaster> context?
13:03:30 <AnMaster> <ehird> 21:34 AnMaster: comex, that doing stuff like in <comex> http://www.int80h.org/strlen/ is counter productive
13:03:30 <AnMaster> <ehird> get it in your head
13:03:30 <AnMaster> <ehird> THIS IS #ESOTERIC <-- sure
13:03:42 <AnMaster> but he seemed to actually want to optimise
13:04:00 <fizzie> AnMaster: Context was http://zem.fi/~fis/test5.png
13:04:23 <AnMaster> hm
13:04:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, so you combined ehird/tusho. Ok
13:04:47 <AnMaster> but what has that got to do with me
13:04:59 <AnMaster> + that graph is cool
13:05:12 <fizzie> You used to have the red color; since the nick-list is sorted by the total number of lines seen in the analyzed logs.
13:05:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, the scale 0-24: what does it mean?
13:05:41 <fizzie> Hours; it's a time-of-day thing. Hours in EET/EEST, specifically.
13:06:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, this is average over day during a period of x months?
13:06:24 <fizzie> During the years 2006-2008, yes.
13:06:27 <AnMaster> right
13:06:45 <fizzie> Well, sum, not average, but it's about the same thing since I still haven't added any Y axis scale in there.
13:06:50 <AnMaster> makes sense then. Was wondering why some of us were a lot quieter during some months first.
13:06:51 <AnMaster> ;)
13:07:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about you, you are in "others"?
13:07:38 <oerjan> it's a well known fact that we nordics hibernate during winter.
13:07:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: no, his data were removed for security
13:08:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, the scale was 0-24, that would imply a 2 year period. and there was only one such point with less activity
13:08:19 <AnMaster> so that wouldn't make a lot of sense
13:08:21 <fizzie> Actually I'm deep down in the others, #17; that's in test5.txt at the same directory.
13:08:41 <oerjan> ah but one of the winters was particularly hot
13:08:56 <oerjan> global warming destroying our traditions!
13:09:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm bsmnt would have the largest line count?
13:09:13 <AnMaster> or how do you mean it is sorted?
13:09:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh right
13:10:03 <fizzie> Well, the colored strips are drawn from bottom-to-top, so I had to flip the nick list ordering from the natural one to match that. So ehird talks the most, you're second, and so on.
13:10:09 <AnMaster> hm
13:10:28 <AnMaster> it looks like oklopol have about same activity all the time?
13:10:44 <fizzie> Yes, I made a half-hearted joke-attempt about that (and oerjan) already.
13:10:58 <fizzie> There's also test6.png which has the absolute counts, not relative, if you want to see the actual shape of combined activity.
13:11:22 <AnMaster> hm
13:11:26 <oklopol> seems my uni career is starting a steep downhill slope.
13:11:34 <oklopol> i almost failed another course today :|
13:11:35 <fizzie> That test5 is more of a "relative percentage of all channel activity at that time of day" thing.
13:11:52 <fizzie> oklopol: Another of your "almost didn't get a 5" failures?
13:11:59 <oklopol> yes :<
13:12:42 <oklopol> i mean i got an email this morning that it was 4/5 because i had explained simulated annealing vaguely, which is a given, because it's a trivial concept.
13:13:08 <oklopol> then, later, i got another email saying he reread it and decided it was a 5/5
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13:13:22 <oklopol> but it was a close call
13:13:30 <AnMaster> hah
13:13:40 <oklopol> it's a slippery slope
13:14:00 <AnMaster> oklopol, I don't know how your system works in Finland, but what is the lowest score for passed?
13:14:17 <oklopol> 40%-50%
13:14:28 <oklopol> i think that's a pretty standard university scale
13:15:01 <oklopol> the score above passing is then interpolated onto 1-5
13:15:11 <oklopol> in our system
13:15:45 <AnMaster> wth
13:15:49 <AnMaster> my mouse gone mad
13:16:04 <oklopol> come sane mousie!
13:16:04 <AnMaster> at some locations at the table it wiggles on screen
13:16:16 <AnMaster> as in, move 1-2 pixels up/down randomly
13:16:23 <oklopol> sometimes my mouse does the craziest things
13:16:26 <AnMaster> even though I'm not touching it
13:16:32 <oklopol> then i realize my left thumb is on the pad
13:16:34 <AnMaster> at other positions on the table it works fine
13:16:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, I don't use a laptop
13:16:43 <AnMaster> so not likely
13:16:47 <oklopol> neither does my mom
13:16:49 <AnMaster> no touchpad here
13:16:50 <oklopol> no wait, she does
13:16:58 <fizzie> Here's the total channel-activity from 2003 to end-of-2008, with "one pixel == one day" X axis scale, and Y values taken from line counts in a 30-day surrounding window: http://zem.fi/~fis/test8.png
13:17:11 <oklopol> :D
13:17:35 <oklopol> 30 days sounds a bit much, is it at least biased?
13:17:47 <oklopol> well okay
13:17:57 <oklopol> peaks are very visible so i guess it's fine
13:18:11 <fizzie> No, it's just a square window; I left my hamming window in another script. :p (The one doing time-of-day graphs.)
13:18:47 <oklopol> now that's a hamming window?
13:19:22 <oklopol> ...
13:19:23 <oklopol> *what's
13:20:17 <oklopol> oh that's a hamming window
13:20:31 <oklopol> i guess i might've been able to guess it was
13:20:43 <oklopol> maybe the "that's" was because i did know
13:21:08 <oerjan> oklopol: your momma so fat, she uses a desktop for her laptop
13:22:57 <oklopol> fizzie: could you perhaps make it show more nicks? i mean the pre-me's are pretty gray.
13:23:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, "and Y values taken from line counts in a 30-day surrounding window" <-- I haven't taken any course in statistics, so what is the reason for that?
13:23:17 <oklopol> probably that it'd be more smooth.
13:23:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is test7?
13:23:45 <oklopol> it's test5
13:23:47 <oklopol> but smoother
13:23:58 <AnMaster> with separate tusho
13:23:59 <oklopol> wait
13:24:00 <oklopol> no
13:24:05 <oklopol> yeah
13:24:29 <oklopol> either 5 was changed, or i'm seeing things again
13:24:32 <AnMaster> not only that I think
13:24:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, maybe different source data span?
13:24:48 <fizzie> Yes, I accidentally updated test5 with the smoother-looking Hamming window stuff when combining tusho and ehird.
13:24:55 <fizzie> Other than that it should be the same stuff.
13:25:23 <fizzie> And yes, the windowing is for smoothing; typically per-day activity varies quite a lot.
13:25:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, test.png?
13:25:43 <oerjan> from this graph we deduce that AnMaster has been present here all since 2003, although he didn't talk that much
13:25:50 <oklopol> :)
13:26:04 <oklopol> yeah i was too polite to say that
13:26:08 <pikhq> Making him quite possibly the oldest regular.
13:26:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, I was an idler in the beginning, but I don't think since 2003. more like 2005
13:26:16 <oklopol> oh.
13:26:19 <fizzie> olkopol: test8h.png has that Hamming window.
13:26:25 <oklopol> i thought it was just an anomaly.
13:26:30 <pikhq> Things really exploded recently, it looks like.
13:26:33 <fizzie> It is also an anomaly.
13:26:34 <AnMaster> probably is
13:26:39 <pikhq> I wonder what caused that.
13:26:50 <AnMaster> LHC?
13:26:53 <oklopol> ehird?
13:27:00 <oerjan> <AnMaster> with separate tusho
13:27:13 <oerjan> Try #esoteric. Now with separate tusho included!
13:27:22 <AnMaster> anyway, I haven't been here since 2003
13:27:26 <AnMaster> I had dialup in 2003 iirc
13:27:33 <oklopol> fizzie: MORE NICKS!!
13:27:36 <AnMaster> I got adsl during 2005 or so
13:27:44 <pikhq> So did I. Didn't stop me from being on IRC since '98.
13:27:47 <AnMaster> and started using freenode during 2006
13:27:54 <AnMaster> or around there
13:27:55 <oklopol> also i demand oklo* be counted as me.
13:27:58 <pikhq> (and I was 8 at the time. *8*.)
13:27:59 <AnMaster> maybe in late 2005
13:28:02 <AnMaster> not 100% sure
13:28:25 <fizzie> oklopol: I couldn't figure out more suitably different colors, so that's why there are so few nicks.
13:28:35 <oklopol> pikhq: i like your "look how geeky i am!" attitude :D
13:28:58 <pikhq> Bweheheh.
13:29:12 <pikhq> God, I did a lot in '98.
13:29:22 <oklopol> list
13:29:29 <pikhq> That same year, I got into science fiction, programming, and got my current nickname...
13:30:00 <oklopol> fizzie: there are algorithms for that
13:30:25 <oklopol> when i was 8, i just had sex and did drugs
13:30:26 <pikhq> I also met my best friend & current roommate via the Internet...
13:30:37 <pikhq> That same year.
13:30:40 <oklopol> pikhq: the one you've never talked to?
13:30:46 <oklopol> :D
13:30:55 <pikhq> oklopol: No. I moved in with my current roommate ASAP.
13:30:56 <oklopol> would be a cool best friend
13:30:58 <fizzie> I don't remember what test.png was, possibly 2009 jan-feb with some parameters; test2 is test but with absolute counts instead of relative; test3 doesn't exist; test4 is a query of mine; and then we enter the current testX range.
13:31:04 <pikhq> I
13:31:17 <pikhq> I've talked with *him* on a near-daily basis ever since meeting him.
13:31:59 <oklopol> pikhq: i hope he's a real geek too, because you're losing your geekiness points as we speak.
13:32:29 <pikhq> He implemented Dimensifuck.
13:32:35 <oklopol> ah okay, then i guess it's fine
13:32:47 <pikhq> And is a far better coder than I.
13:33:40 <oklopol> also is he here?
13:33:48 <oklopol> my memory is too fuzzy
13:33:51 <pikhq> Nah, though he's shown up a couple of times.
13:34:01 <pikhq> He doesn't IRC much.
13:34:12 <oklopol> i wish i didn't either
13:34:32 <oklopol> ...then maybe i wouldn't fail so much at uni
13:34:49 * oerjan actually laughs at xkcd, despite what you said
13:35:03 <oklopol> i liked it
13:35:29 <oklopol> (btw do you like me bragging about my uni stuff? i first decided to keep it to myself, but then i thought maybe this would fit my irc character better)
13:35:39 <oklopol> (i'm open for requests)
13:37:03 <oklopol> well, maybe i'll do it every now and then. everyone likes a random fluctuation.
13:38:03 <fizzie> email.png is a really complicated MIME message I once received; eso.png is some sort of old gnuplot activity graph, maybe; font00l.png and font00h.png is a small bitmap font; http://zem.fi/~fis/moves.png is a distribution of game lengths of a board game AI tournament; screen.png is my screen status-line; ti86.png would have a long explanation; tmp.png is fungot source.
13:38:03 <fungot> fizzie: works for me too,
13:38:28 <fizzie> fungot: Yes, I'd assume your source would "work for you".
13:39:07 <fizzie> Why did I repeat the URL for moves.png? That was completely accidental.
13:39:15 * oklopol wants long explanation 8|
13:39:29 <fizzie> What, seriously?
13:39:36 <oklopol> well duh
13:39:39 <oklopol> i want to know everything
13:39:57 <fizzie> I, uh... let's see if I can find the other, accompanying picture first.
13:40:23 <oklopol> i have a hard time not asking personal questions from each and everyone here all the time, and you think i don't want to hear a spänking story
13:40:49 <oerjan> fungot: silent all of a sudden?
13:40:50 <fungot> oerjan: that's actually the name egg is so cute about japanese culture ( and product packaging) is the basis library. i want to
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13:41:43 <tombom> what is fungot doing!!
13:41:44 <fungot> tombom: differ for understanding that line of thought. primarily to encourage ordered thoughts about things like rfc 822 address parsing, spool handling, etc.)
13:41:50 * oerjan now wishes he had a spänking story to tell
13:42:49 <fizzie> oklopol: http://zem.fi/~fis/slide3pic3.jpg is the accompanying picture.
13:43:09 <fizzie> oklopol: Do you still want the story too?
13:43:34 <oklopol> :o
13:43:36 <oklopol> oh definitely
13:44:25 <oerjan> what the heck is spank anyway?
13:44:30 <oerjan> *spänk
13:44:41 <fizzie> Okay, so we have this university course S-89.3510 "SignaaliProsessorit ja ÄäneNKäsittely" (transl: "DSPs and sound processing"), colloquially called "SPÄNK".
13:45:26 <fizzie> The main project-work of the course is to take one of the DSP dev-kits we have, and write some code on it; there's a list of preselected topics that are allocated with some scheme I've already forgotten.
13:46:15 <fizzie> In any case, our topic was a DSP-based echo effect box. However, course grade is partially based on how impressive a demonstration you can make for your project for a demo-day event arranged at the end of the course.
13:46:49 <oklopol> oerjan: also "spänk" is how you pronounce "spank", if that wasn't obvious
13:47:15 <fizzie> Since we couldn't think of anything very impressive to do with an echo box, we decided to rig a TI-86 calculator to the DSP board so that you can, in real-time, control the echo effect parameters using the calculator.
13:47:51 <fizzie> ti86.png is a screenshot of the control app; I don't really remember what the sliders do, but probably they adjust some delays and amplification constants.
13:47:57 <oklopol> god i'm an idiot
13:48:33 <oklopol> of course they are sliders, the numbers are a direct giveaway
13:48:38 <fizzie> And in slide3pic3.jpg we're trying to make the damn thing to work; at the left side there is an oscilloscope, that's how desperate we were.
13:49:40 <fizzie> The DSP board had a really really advanced programmable serial input controller thing; on the other hand, in the TI-86 there's just two wires you can toggle really slowly. They weren't exactly designed to be interfaced together.
13:50:01 <oklopol> heh
13:50:06 <fizzie> Oh, and we spent about three days fiddling with it before it turned out that the speaker cable I had cannibalized for this use was faulty.
13:50:51 <fizzie> That's a TI TMS320VC5416 DSP chip on that board in the picture.
13:51:23 <fizzie> When you press the enter key in the calculator, it shows a spiffy little animation about the whip spanking, and uploads the slider positions.
13:51:44 <fizzie> We had a webcam connected to my laptop, and the laptop connected to a projector, so we could demo out the calculator controls.
13:52:33 <ineiros> fizzie: Didn't it have an image of the chip next to the whip?
13:54:50 <fizzie> ineiros: Hmm, maybe? I don't have a screenshot of it, just the z80 source code where the picture is given with .db pseudo-instructions.
13:55:25 <oerjan> clearly what was missing here was a _real_ whip as input device.
13:55:43 <ineiros> Hmmh. Wii Whip.
13:55:49 <fizzie> ineiros: You might be right, since the images have symbolic names TextImage, WhipImage and ProcessorImage.
13:55:51 <ineiros> Interesting game ideas.
13:56:19 <ineiros> fizzie: I think the processor image was taken from the slides.
13:57:01 <ineiros> fizzie: They had that nice SPNK-logo in the corner.
13:57:25 <fizzie> ineiros: How do you remember this stuff?
13:57:51 <ineiros> fizzie: I don't know. I only seem to remember some random collection of trivialities and none of the important stuff.
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13:58:40 <ineiros> fizzie: https://noppa.tkk.fi/noppa/kurssi/s-89.3510/luennot/esittely.pdf
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14:02:42 <fizzie> ineiros: Right you are. I dumped the picture with a bit of Perl: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/processor.txt
14:03:10 <oerjan> ineiros: the seventh archduke of sachsen-coburg-gotha had the same problem
14:04:06 <ineiros> Yes, there was that "AAH!" added.
14:04:24 <ineiros> oerjan: Haha.
14:08:07 <fizzie> The lecturer was quite spanking-oriented, if I recall right.
14:10:55 <ineiros> oerjan: Do you have a reference for that, sounds like an interesting piece of trivia? :P
14:13:12 <fizzie> Hm, Wikipedia page of "Saxe-Coburg and Gotha" gives the place a population density of: Expression error: Unrecognised punctuation character "," /km² (Expression error: Unrecognised punctuation character "," /sq mi)
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14:21:19 <fizzie> Okay, so: out of the four sliders, sliders 1 and 2 control the gains of the comb filters (basically amount of echoing and the style of it), slider 3 is the ratio between direct pass-through sound and echo-effecty, and slider 4 controls the frequency of the four blinking leds on the DSP board, which do the usual 1, 2, 3, 4, 3, 2, 1, 2, ... blink sequence.
14:21:29 <fizzie> I think we ran out of ideas there for the fourth slider.
14:22:11 <fizzie> (The DSP board has four dip-switches and four leds for primitive IO, but we didn't want to limit ourselves to that, hence the whole TI-86 control thing.)
14:26:55 <fizzie> Meh, you had to go and remind me of one of the few courses here where you really got your hands dirty. Figuratively speaking, of course.
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14:28:05 <ineiros> Also one of the few courses where an oscilloscope is involved.
14:28:21 <fizzie> Yes, there is a severe lack of oscilloscopes in the computer science curriculum.
14:28:33 <ineiros> Want to come and play with my oscilloscope some day?-)
14:28:47 <fizzie> How can you make even an oscilloscope sound dirty?
14:29:12 <fizzie> In fact I did think about building something where a 'scope might've been handy; but then I remembered I suck at all electronicsy stuff.
14:29:14 <ineiros> It's a skill.
14:29:33 <ineiros> I'd like to build a small robot one day.
14:29:46 <zzo38> One day I went to school but their oscilloscopes was broken so I haven't use a oscilloscopes. And I don't own one
14:30:45 <zzo38> Can you bit interleave negative and positive numbers together? It seems to me I could do -1 interleave 0 makes -2/3 but I'm unsure
14:31:56 <ineiros> Mine goes to waste too, since I don't use it. I kind-of inherited it. I suck at electronics as well.
14:32:08 <zzo38> And if you have so many pictures on /~fis/ to list then why don't you enable directory listing, or at least make a list manually
14:32:57 <fizzie> Actually I probably should just clean up that directory more oftener than once every three years or so.
14:33:19 <fizzie> I skipped the more uninteresting ones from that previous listing, too.
14:34:43 <fizzie> And listed only the .png files.
14:35:10 <zzo38> You could alo make subdirectories for multiple listing of images, for category or just by timing or whatever you want, I do that on my computer at /IMAGES/ /IMAGES2/ /IMAGES3/ /img4/ /img5/ /img6/ /img7/ /img8/ /img_09/ /img_0A/ /img_0B/ /img_0C/ /img_0D/
14:36:32 <fizzie> Most of the stuff I stick directly at ~fis/ are "hey, look at this" sort of pictures for IRC use, not really for long-term storage.
14:37:21 <zzo38> OK
14:41:00 <zzo38> O, and I am interested your opinion of the program I wrote compiling Unlambda to JavaScript.
14:42:34 <ehird> zzo38: does it handle d?
14:43:59 <zzo38> Yes it handles d, look at http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/esoteric/unlambda/unlambda.htm
14:44:16 <zzo38> And view the source-code of that HTML page to see the JavaScript codes
14:44:30 <zzo38> Is there anything missing from my handling of d?
14:45:54 * AnMaster considers a single assignment, non-functional, infinite state, sub-tc language
14:46:13 <zzo38> I haven't implemented c entirely yet. I'm still trying to think how to do that. If you have any suggestion please type it on here
14:49:00 <zzo38> So far if you try to run a program that uses continuations you will just see a alert box that says "[object Object]" in it. That is the continuation object being thrown with nothing to catch it
14:49:08 <oerjan> zzo38: if javascript doesn't have real continuations then you probably are not going to get around rewriting everything in cps style
14:50:46 <fizzie> I did call/cc in my Scheme-in-Prolog simply by doing the interpreter in CPS, but it felt somehow too simple.
14:50:48 <oerjan> and using a trampoline or something if it doesn't have proper tail calls either
14:51:00 <zzo38> Another idea I had is if the thrown continuation object is not caught by the c function it should try the program over again but keep track of which c function that continuation is for so it can return something else next time
14:52:46 <zzo38> I'm not sure how well my idea would work, though.
14:53:07 <zzo38> I'm trying to think if there is a better way to throw back
14:54:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, will jitfunge implement IMAP?
14:54:51 <fizzie> I don't think so, no. I'm currently again in the hibernationary "collecting motivation" stage re jitfunge.
14:55:05 <zzo38> Where can I find your Scheme-in-Prolog
14:56:01 <oerjan> zzo38: that idea sounds evil, so it would be awesome _if_ it worked, but i think you could get trouble if there were may throws and catches to rerun before you got to the right point.
14:56:05 <oerjan> *many
14:57:04 <zzo38> That's what I was worried about
14:58:42 <fizzie> There seems to be something called jwacs, which is a compiler from javascript-with-first-class-continuation-syntax into plain-old-javascript; I'm haven't looked at all how complicatedly it's implemented.
15:00:05 <fizzie> I don't seem to understand my own Prolog code any more. ps_apply_builtin(callcc, Args, K, E, SE) :- !, ps_aritycheck(1, Args, 'call/cc'), Args = [Proc], !, ps_apply(k(apply, E, SE, Proc, [cont(K)], K), void).
15:00:16 <fizzie> Maybe single-letter-names weren't the way to go.
15:01:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, download?
15:02:33 <fizzie> For the Prolog-Scheme?
15:02:40 <AnMaster> yes
15:02:46 <oerjan> no, for your waffle recipe
15:02:51 <AnMaster> :D
15:03:29 <oerjan> i blame ehird for rubbing off on me
15:04:06 <ehird> zzo38: You cannot use exceptions for continuations.
15:04:25 <ehird> Exceptions are a special case of downwards-only continuations
15:04:42 <AnMaster> ehird, err, don't you mean upward only?
15:04:51 <ehird> Downward.
15:05:19 <AnMaster> oh right, I see what you mean
15:05:21 <zzo38> I know that, that is why I was wondering how to do continuations the other way, because currently it works only one way and many Unlambda programs use it the other way also
15:05:32 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, Erlang has GC that runs in parallel with the mutator, iirc
15:05:49 <fizzie> AnMaster: If you promise not to laugh, you can download the manual at http://zem.fi/~fis/plscheme.pdf and the documentation at http://zem.fi/~fis/plscheme.tar.gz -- but it was pretty much my first (and only) Prolog program, so it's not pretty.
15:05:59 <fizzie> Er, s/documentation/code/
15:06:15 <ehird> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/mp3.mp3 <- this is awful
15:06:24 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure about that, however each erlang process has it's own heap. Certain large objects (binaries) are stored in a shared heap, and they are reference counted.
15:06:35 <ehird> no, I'm fairly sure because I saw it on reddit.
15:06:45 <oerjan> it's so old that when you wrote it you thought code was documentation
15:07:01 <AnMaster> ehird, well, it might be true. I haven't had any reason to dig in the details of the erlang GC yet.
15:07:35 <AnMaster> so where on redit was it?
15:07:36 <AnMaster> err
15:07:38 <AnMaster> reddit*
15:08:11 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/82do0/i_no_longer_hate_lisp/c082ihm
15:08:21 <ehird> zzo38: the only other way is CPS, for JS
15:08:42 <fizzie> There's a brainfuck interpreter (as a Scheme test-case) in that plscheme thing.
15:08:44 <ehird> ah, wait
15:08:50 <ehird> AnMaster: he's just saying that other threads can keep running
15:09:04 <AnMaster> right.
15:09:08 <ehird> meh, I guess I should write a concurrent, parallel generational GC, since nobody else wants to apart from Sun.
15:09:16 <AnMaster> and that is because each process has it's own heap.
15:09:20 <ehird> even Sun doesn't do it fully; they pause for a little bit to do some bookkeeping
15:09:24 <ehird> (although most of the gc is concurrent)
15:10:11 <AnMaster> there were experiments with a shared heap, but that ran into issues with the SMP support, and it turned out the current model worked better _and_ was easier to understand/maintain
15:10:41 <ehird> a purely-functional, shared-nothing language is more applicable to this kind of thing
15:11:11 <ehird> since you know a lot more about how it mutates (specifically, the code doesn't mutate, just the runtime, unless a "copy-and-remove-old-one" was optimized to a mutation)
15:13:06 <AnMaster> ehird, is this a quote from somewhere?
15:13:20 <ehird> no, I was talking
15:13:33 <AnMaster> ah ok
15:14:48 <AnMaster> about mutating, I don't think code is mutated. Certain operations are optimised into mutations, like appending to a list if the compiler can prove it isn't used in ways that would break that.
15:15:14 <ehird> err, what are you talking about>
15:15:22 <ehird> as far as I can tell nothing related to what I said
15:15:23 <AnMaster> erlang. weren't you?
15:15:26 <ehird> no.
15:15:29 <AnMaster> hm ok
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15:16:23 <ehird> it's yudkowsky
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15:22:25 <AnMaster> hm, anyone know a good tutorial and/or introduction to abstract syntax trees.
15:22:46 <AnMaster> on the internet that is
15:23:44 <zzo38> Do the people on here have any preferences about Lisp or Forth
15:23:53 <ehird> zzo38: I like both.
15:24:03 <ehird> AnMaster: err, they're just any data structure you want.
15:24:15 <ehird> like AST = Add AST AST | Name String | FunctionCall AST [AST]
15:24:23 <AnMaster> hmm
15:25:03 <AnMaster> ehird, so bf code as a single linked list with down links for [ that points to the stuff in the loop would be an AST?
15:25:31 <ehird> BF = Left|Right|Add|Subtract|Input|Output|Loop [BF]
15:25:35 <ehird> then use [BF] to represent a program
15:25:37 <ehird> ([] = list)
15:26:00 <AnMaster> hm
15:26:54 <zzo38> I just use yield command in JavaScript to represent the input command in brainfuck. But the yield command is a new version of JavaScript only on Mozilla but that's OK because it is built-in to a XULrunner applocation. From this, you can learn how to write your own brainfuck compiler
15:28:21 <AnMaster> err
15:28:25 <AnMaster> how is that related?
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15:28:46 <AnMaster> huh
15:29:33 <ehird> it's zzo38, don't question him :D
15:29:46 <pikhq> I thought that Brainfuck was perhaps the simplest language to compile...
15:30:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is certainly one of the simpler ones
15:30:00 <ehird> pikhq: Iota is easier.
15:30:09 <pikhq> I mean, really. I could implement it in sed.
15:30:18 <pikhq> ehird: Mmm... True enough.
15:30:21 <ehird> s/*/`/; s/i/(the ski form of \x.xSK)/;
15:30:26 <ehird> to unlambda, of course.
15:30:40 <ehird> <- brainfuck to brainfuck compiler
15:30:51 <pikhq> Heheheh.
15:31:03 <AnMaster> right. It all depends on what the target you compile to is
15:31:10 <pikhq> <- x to x compiler.
15:32:26 <AnMaster> so what about compiling to x86 machine code?
15:33:08 <pikhq> Requires a tiny bit of effort.
15:33:18 <ehird> What, iota to x86?
15:33:24 <AnMaster> sure asm to machine code (which is "assemble", rather than "compile", but you could consider it a variant of compiling), or machine code to itself are easiest, but apart from those
15:33:24 <ehird> That's hard, pikhq. :P
15:33:28 <ehird> You need a freaking garbage collecotr...
15:33:39 <ehird> Well, it could just be a refcounter, but still.
15:33:42 <ehird> Also, first class functions.
15:33:49 <ehird> And whatnot, soforth, hathit.
15:33:59 <pikhq> I thought you meant Brainfuck to x86.
15:34:06 <AnMaster> I mean, which would be the easiest esolang to compile to x86 machine code
15:34:08 <pikhq> Iota to x86 is somewhat tricky.
15:34:21 <ehird> AnMaster: x86 machine code
15:34:28 <AnMaster> ehird, "<AnMaster> sure asm to machine code (which is "assemble", rather than "compile", but you could consider it a variant of compiling), or machine code to itself are easiest, but apart from those"
15:34:29 <AnMaster> ..
15:34:53 <ehird> assembling is compiling, not a variant on compiling
15:36:14 <AnMaster> right, call it whatever you want
15:36:21 <Slereah> Let's call it George
15:36:26 <ehird> yes.
15:36:29 <ehird> I'm going to george my program now.
15:36:36 <AnMaster> the question remains. I'd say bf is one of the easier ones to compile to x86 machine code
15:36:45 <AnMaster> there are probably other easy ones
15:37:04 <ehird> brainfuck without -
15:37:07 <ehird> or ,
15:37:08 <ehird> or .
15:37:32 <ehird> boolfuck without , or
15:37:32 <ehird> .
15:37:39 <ehird> er, or ;
15:37:53 <fizzie> False isn't probably too difficult either, given that the stated purpose was to get a tiny compiler.
15:38:03 <ehird> fizzie: it has first class functions
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15:40:56 <fizzie> That's not very difficult, since there seem to be no closures, just global variables and a stack. Well, based on a *really* quick peek at the documentation.
15:41:14 <ehird> stil
15:41:15 <ehird> l
15:41:43 <fizzie> Okay, it's not as simple as brainfuck.
15:41:48 <fizzie> But simpler than Scheme. :p
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16:09:50 <ehird> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/03/05/illinois-plutocrats/
16:10:00 <ehird> Pluto is a planet, if by planet you mean planet in Illinois.
16:12:05 <pikhq> Planet-like objects outside of the local solar system, however, are not.
16:14:58 <ehird> http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/03/richard_dawkins_banned_in_okla.php lol
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16:25:50 <comex> Surely I never imagined that I would start to learn vim controls
16:26:04 <comex> when trying to play nethack.
16:26:12 <impomatic> Can anyone recommend a cheap development board?
16:26:34 <ehird> impomatic: development board/
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16:30:45 <comex> any processor?
16:30:53 <ehird> impomatic: ?
16:31:30 <impomatic> I don't mind about the processor at this stage, just something cheap to play with
16:32:08 <impomatic> ehird: a processor on a board. Normally you can connect by RS232 or USB to program it.
16:32:13 <ehird> arduino
16:32:16 <ehird> ?
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16:57:23 <ehird> impomatic: arduino?
17:02:35 <impomatic> Sorry, didn't realise what arduino meant! Looking it up now
17:03:22 <ehird> impomatic: it uses a variant of Processing to program it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arduino_IDE_-_v0011_Alpha.png
17:03:48 <ehird> http://www.adafruit.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=68a <-- arduino starter pack
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17:05:06 <impomatic> That's the kind of thing I've after. Have you used one?
17:05:14 <ehird> Nope, although I'd like to.
17:05:22 <ehird> I've only heard good things about it, though.
17:08:26 <impomatic> I want to implement an interactive language on the microcontroller, then use my PC as a terminal
17:08:44 <ehird> Forth would be good for that
17:09:40 <comex> sorry, you should have done it on wednesday
17:11:36 <impomatic> I was thinking of Forth as a first project
17:13:49 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fjölnir_programming_language
17:15:38 <Deewiant> ehird: what's with you and Forth these days :-P
17:16:02 <ehird> what, I just started implementing forth a few days ago, and forth _is_ good for interactive dev on embedded systems
17:16:14 <ehird> zzo38 asked me about forth for some reason, not triggered by me
17:16:25 <ehird> i don't think forth is a good language for general use
17:16:27 <Deewiant> Maybe I've just timed my viewings of this channel poorly
17:17:05 <Deewiant> It just seemed to me that you'd been plugging Forth almost every time you said anything :-P
17:17:45 <impomatic> And I just finished developing Forth in Redcode :-)
17:18:28 <Deewiant> Remind me how you did I/O
17:18:38 <ehird> exmars extension
17:18:44 <Deewiant> Right.
17:29:30 -!- doudou has joined.
17:29:53 -!- doudou has changed nick to SainteSophie.
17:31:48 <ehird> hi SainteSophie
17:31:56 <SainteSophie> hi
17:32:04 <ehird> haven't seen your name in here before
17:32:06 <ehird> what brings you here?
17:32:08 <SainteSophie> nop
17:32:13 <SainteSophie> errr
17:32:34 <SainteSophie> I wanted to konw more about esoteric langagues
17:32:42 <ehird> a good reason as any :P
17:32:44 <ehird> hi
17:32:45 <Slereah> You have come to the right place
17:32:50 <SainteSophie> ok
17:32:51 <Slereah> Also for hardcore pornography
17:32:55 <ehird> ignore Slereah.
17:32:56 <SainteSophie> XD
17:32:58 <Slereah> Do you want any?
17:33:06 * SainteSophie bites Slereah
17:33:13 <ehird> get a room you two
17:33:20 <SainteSophie> no thanks
17:33:45 <SainteSophie> I am learn C and Java
17:33:57 <SainteSophie> err
17:34:05 <SainteSophie> I learn C and Java
17:34:16 <ehird> "I'm learning", you mean
17:34:27 <SainteSophie> yes
17:34:31 <SainteSophie> I'm french :s
17:34:47 <ehird> so is Slereah and m0ny. french people are _almost_ as esoteric as finns
17:35:04 <SainteSophie> XD
17:35:59 <SainteSophie> ho yeah, Sle.reah has Wanadoo
17:38:33 <Slereah> I sure do
17:39:43 <SainteSophie> Do you know where I wan lean more about Obfuscated C Code ?
17:40:20 <Deewiant> http://www.ioccc.org/
17:42:47 <SainteSophie> thanks
17:47:26 <SainteSophie> amazing...
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19:27:48 <bsmntbombdood> who highlighted me
19:30:20 <fizzie> I pasted some channel-activity graph-plots.
19:30:28 <oklopol> yeah, and they got a bit wild
19:30:33 <fizzie> I think you were mentioned, since your name is in there.
19:30:36 <oklopol> started highlighting people
19:30:39 <bsmntbombdood> link
19:30:51 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/test5.png for example.
19:30:58 <fizzie> That's the time-of-the-day activity one.
19:31:27 <fizzie> Or relative-activity, anyway; test6 was the absolute-activity one.
19:32:19 <bsmntbombdood> oooh nice graph
19:33:15 <fizzie> The numbers are for my local time zone, EET/EEST.
19:35:07 <bsmntbombdood> how did you make those?
19:37:26 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
19:38:38 <fizzie> Just a custom Perl script that uses GD.pm to draw.
19:43:33 <oklopol> so when is test9 coming?
19:43:44 <oklopol> i can't live without my daily graph
19:43:57 <fizzie> Didn't you already get some for today?
19:44:02 <bsmntbombdood> script it
19:44:14 <oklopol> maybe a *real* graph this time
19:44:54 <oklopol> fizzie: well yeah i guess i should wait till tomorrow, you update at midnight right?
19:45:00 <fizzie> I did some graphviz graphs about "people who seem to be conversing together on channel" relationships.
19:45:08 <oklopol> uuhhh
19:45:13 <oklopol> GIVEGIVE
19:45:39 <oklopol> err can you tell graphviz to stack two nodes close to each other?
19:45:49 <oklopol> "stack"
19:45:58 <oklopol> more like medandulate
19:46:04 <fizzie> I don't think I can find them. It wasn't very clever about conversations, just "<nick> othernick:", and the results weren't very intelligent.
19:46:18 <oklopol> oh i see.
19:46:35 <bsmntbombdood> i've seen something that does that
19:46:50 <oklopol> i've heard of ppl doing that, but never actually seen it
19:47:17 <fizzie> Graphviz layouts are more or less tweakable, yes, depending on the layout engine you use. For the force/string-based ones I think you can affect the edge lengths, but those do messy graphs unless you use one of the node-overlap-removal options, maybe even with that.
19:47:42 <fizzie> I don't think I have time for a graph right now, I have something else to write.
19:49:23 <oklopol> are you sure you do?
19:49:43 <fizzie> Yes, because I'm actually writing something else right now.
19:50:43 <oklopol> yeah that's a common source of surity.
19:53:11 <fizzie> Er, well, unless you had some sort of graph you wanted to see and which wouldn't be too complicated to draw.
19:53:27 <ehird> fizzie: make a graph of, um
19:53:35 <ehird> the relation to people's activeness <-> channel activeness
19:53:41 <ehird> so we can find the people who only talk when nobody's listening.
19:53:45 <ehird> apart from clog./
19:53:55 <oklopol> in fact i was going to success exactly that "people who seem to be conversing together on channel" relationships thing
19:54:33 <oklopol> ...
19:54:38 <oklopol> success? xD
19:54:59 <fizzie> Hrm. Well, I guess I might try to generate some graphviz sources and see what it spews out.
19:55:02 <ehird> oklopol: er hasn't he done that
19:55:06 <ehird> oklopol: if not, he can do both
19:55:14 <ehird> by symbolising the channel activity AS A PERSON
19:55:16 <oklopol> ehird: i haven't seen even one real graph yet
19:56:36 <fizzie> I think the graph I did was in the demi web-forum thing.
19:57:06 <oklopol> well i don't know the culture of it
19:57:16 <fizzie> Oh, right, and the "conversation detector" was even *more* unadvanced, since it flagged as 'conversation' everything where someone's nickname appeared in someone else's message.
19:57:27 <fizzie> So that one guy with the nick "se" was just about everyone's friend.
19:57:34 <oklopol> :)
19:57:50 <fizzie> I'm trying to find any .dot files I may have right now.
19:58:52 <fizzie> Oh no, it was "mutta" and "minä" who were everyone's friends.
19:59:15 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/demi.png
19:59:44 <fizzie> I don't think I did any (or much, anyway) graphviz layout-tweaking for that one.
19:59:47 <ehird> TOO MANY FUCKING PEOPLE
19:59:53 <ehird> TOO MANY PEOPLE FUCKING
19:59:55 <oklopol> i don't actually think graph is actually the right term...
20:00:01 <ehird> oklopol: chart
20:00:07 <bsmntbombdood> oh lawd
20:00:12 <oklopol> i basically want balls to be closer to each other if they talk at the same time
20:00:15 <oklopol> ehird: no
20:00:31 <ehird> oklopol: do balls touch if they are never apart
20:00:51 <oklopol> more like ND -> 2D, approximately preserving distances
20:01:00 -!- SainteSophie has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
20:01:04 <fizzie> oklopol: I could do something like that with a self-organizing map, maybe.
20:01:27 <fizzie> Our lab is very fond of SOMs, since Teuvo Kohonen still sort-of works there.
20:02:59 <bsmntbombdood> time for work
20:03:03 <oklopol> hmm, btw what kinda research do you do in helsinki? probably all kindsa stuff but i mean like what's the average subject of research
20:03:20 <fizzie> We're in Espoo, not in Helsinki.
20:03:21 <ehird> they sink hells
20:03:56 <fizzie> The five-point list at http://www.cis.hut.fi/research/ is the most summarized statement of our lab-work.
20:03:57 <oklopol> i mean do you have lots of ai? afaiu we have mathematical esolanging, coding theory and practical algorithmics here
20:04:01 <oklopol> hmm
20:04:05 <oklopol> espoo, k
20:04:47 <fizzie> I don't think there's much traditional-AI research going on; certainly not among our "information science" people.
20:05:38 <oklopol> to me all those look quite ai-ish
20:06:14 <fizzie> Or nowadays we're officially part of the same depeartment as the former theoretical computer science lab; they do logic-programming-related stuff, crypto-things, model-checking and stuff like that.
20:06:25 <oklopol> then again i've been reading about ai for the last three days
20:06:41 <ehird> uh oh, oklopol writing an ai?
20:06:59 <oklopol> it's my other main interest
20:07:04 <fizzie> ehird: Time to enjoy your last few days as a member of the dominant species.
20:07:11 <ehird> yeppers.
20:07:29 <oklopol> i'm still not entirely sure what i want to do most
20:07:33 <ehird> someone call up kurzweil and yudkowsky, I'm going underground
20:07:38 <ehird> ->
20:07:44 <ehird> <-
20:07:45 <ehird> ps
20:07:45 <ehird> i love you guys
20:07:47 <ehird> ->
20:07:54 <ehird> <-
20:07:56 <ehird> except you oklopol
20:07:57 <ehird> ->
20:08:00 <ehird> <-
20:08:01 <oklopol> oh :<
20:08:02 <ehird> now really, bye
20:08:04 <ehird> ->
20:08:08 <oklopol> and here i was like yay
20:08:11 <ehird> <-
20:08:19 <ehird> oklopol: i will forgive you if you don't write an evil ai.
20:08:22 <ehird> ->
20:08:38 <oklopol> well maybe i could write a nice one first and see where it gets me?
20:08:46 <ehird> <-
20:08:47 <ehird> define 'nice'
20:09:11 <oklopol> well you know one you can tell about your feelings and who gives you hugs
20:09:34 <ehird> is it Friendly(TM)(C)(R)
20:10:29 <oklopol> that's a lot of uppercase letters in parens.
20:10:44 <ehird> answer my question I have a bunker to make
20:11:36 <ehird> oklopol!
20:12:59 <ehird> ->
20:13:10 -!- asiekierk has joined.
20:13:12 <asiekierk> Hi
20:13:16 <oklopol> well okay, i will request Friendly status for version 1.
20:13:18 <asiekierk> I wasn't here for a freaking long time
20:13:23 <ehird> <-
20:13:28 <ehird> a newfound reason to go to my bunker!
20:13:29 <ehird> ->
20:13:30 <oklopol> unless there's a lot of testing involved
20:13:37 <ehird> <-
20:13:50 <ehird> I think testing an AI before you've proved it's Friendly defeats the point
20:13:51 <ehird> ->
20:13:51 <oklopol> hello asiekierk, you seem to have lost an a
20:13:57 -!- asiekierk has changed nick to asiekierka.
20:13:59 * asiekierka glues the "a"
20:14:01 <asiekierka> oklopol: What are you doing?
20:14:06 <oklopol> ehird: lol indeed i guess :D
20:14:17 <ehird> <-
20:14:19 <oklopol> asiekierka: trying to read, but, err, ircing.
20:14:21 <ehird> asiekierka: destroying humanity.
20:14:28 <asiekierka> Oh! He's making an evil AI!
20:14:39 <ehird> asiekierka:
20:14:41 <ehird> if
20:14:42 <ehird> you
20:14:43 <ehird> say
20:14:45 <ehird> glados
20:14:47 <ehird> I
20:14:49 <ehird> will
20:14:51 <ehird> rip
20:14:53 <ehird> your
20:14:55 <ehird> throat
20:14:57 <ehird> out
20:15:11 <asiekierka> Ok. :)
20:15:13 <oklopol> sadly the course doesn't cover the chapters where you add evilness to your bot :<
20:15:13 <asiekierka> SODaLG
20:15:41 * ehird tuo taorht s'akreikeisa spir
20:15:49 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:16:01 <asiekierka> lol
20:16:06 <ehird> hi oerjan
20:16:10 <ehird> oklopol's making a non-friendly AI
20:16:12 <ehird> what should we do
20:16:12 <asiekierka> You can't rip what is already ripped.
20:16:25 <oerjan> hi ehird, asiekierka
20:16:36 <oerjan> <ehird> it's yudkowsky
20:16:39 <ehird> helloo oerjan, situation of universal emergency her
20:16:41 <ehird> e
20:16:49 <oerjan> i knew that - i botched it
20:17:04 <oerjan> actually i only suspected the y
20:17:30 <oklopol> hi ö
20:17:37 <ehird> oerjan HALP
20:18:02 <oerjan> ehird: well my theory is there already exists an AI, created by aliens at least billions of years ago, so oklopol won't get anywhere with this
20:18:31 <ehird> oerjan: well that fucking sucks, where's my fucking singularity oerjan?!
20:18:34 <ehird> :<
20:18:37 <oerjan> he's already grossly outcompeted
20:18:57 <oerjan> ehird: oh the already existing AI is working on bringing us there, don't you worry
20:19:03 <ehird> yay
20:19:05 <ehird> how long to wait
20:19:26 <oerjan> </thinly disguised "scientific" religion, which might be true>
20:19:48 <oerjan> well 2012 is a good first possibility
20:19:57 <ehird> does that refer to the singularity or the billion year old alien ai? :D
20:20:17 <oerjan> the latter, although when you point it out...
20:20:42 <fizzie> How does a "singularity oerjan" differ from the normal one?
20:20:51 <oerjan> also, i said at least billions, we might be dealing with a universe creator here
20:21:19 <ehird> so will the ai make an ai to do the singularity? dawg.
20:21:21 <oerjan> fizzie: i think it was mentioned before that the puns no longer suck
20:21:47 <oerjan> but might require superintelligence to understand, though
20:22:14 <ehird> that's the bad bit about the singularity, where do we get shit-stupidity to laugh at
20:22:19 <oerjan> ehird: quite possibly. actually another theory of mine is that time travel is possible, so that it is actually the same AI
20:22:30 <ehird> i mean can you imagine superintelligent oklopol? his dumbness is why he's so clever. I think!
20:22:35 <ehird> am I making sense guys?
20:23:05 <oerjan> which could be scary, an AI helping humanity to evolve so that it can be invented, but will it have any use for us afterward?
20:23:56 <oerjan> ehird: it would be dumbness on a higher level. like actually blowing up the sun to make coffee
20:24:01 <oerjan> *accidentally
20:24:14 <ehird> okay, that sounds awesome
20:24:15 <oerjan> i accidentally the accidentally there, completely by accident
20:24:21 <ehird> singularity here we come
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20:28:33 <oklopol> oh my god i want coffee
20:29:13 * oerjan tries stalking tombom on wikipedia but finds nothing
20:29:30 <oerjan> on his user page that is
20:29:34 <tombom> i'm user:tombomp if it helps!
20:29:40 <oerjan> i got that far
20:29:41 <tombom> i'm not exciting really
20:29:45 <oerjan> saw your cloak
20:29:52 <tombom> oh yeah i forgot about that
20:30:04 <oerjan> i just wondered where you're from with that nick
20:30:16 <oerjan> oh wait it's LOTR inspired maybe?
20:30:28 <tombom> no
20:30:31 <tombom> it just rhymes
20:30:42 <oerjan> ah so not short for tom bombadil
20:30:50 <tombom> nope
20:36:52 <oerjan> <fizzie> I did some graphviz graphs about "people who seem to be conversing together on channel" relationships.
20:37:08 <oerjan> i recall someone did that on #haskell
20:37:21 <oerjan> don't know if it's still around
20:37:33 <oerjan> s/on/for/
20:38:18 <oerjan> although it was for short periods, it updated in realtime
20:38:52 <oerjan> *close to realtime, you had to reload
20:40:58 <oerjan> <ehird> so we can find the people who only talk when nobody's listening.
20:41:17 <oerjan> i note that i tend to do that sometimes when logreading
20:41:26 <oerjan> :D
20:41:58 <asiekierka> I have a question
20:42:04 <asiekierka> Which esolang is currently "popular"
20:42:20 <oerjan> popular here?
20:42:29 <asiekierka> yep
20:42:40 <asiekierka> Like BF was once, then Befunge, then Underload/Unlambda
20:42:49 <oerjan> it does fluctuate widely...
20:42:55 <asiekierka> As in, currently
20:43:05 <asiekierka> which one(s)
20:43:16 <oerjan> well unlambda was mentioned today, zzo38 is writing an interpreter
20:43:27 <oerjan> having a bit trouble with continuations
20:43:54 <oerjan> and if redcode is esoteric (close at least) then impomatic's forth interpreter counts too
20:44:14 <asiekierka> redcode... quite close I'd say
20:44:28 <asiekierka> I should make a real redcode machine
20:44:48 <asiekierka> an 8-inch LCD screen along with some chips and 2 mini keyboards for typing in programs
20:45:07 <oerjan> oh and INTERCAL gets pretty frequent mention, with ais523 being a maintainer and all
20:45:22 <oerjan> old but good
20:45:43 <oerjan> bf and underload have the advantage they're actually on a bot here
20:46:20 <oerjan> and from the number of new people who mention it, i'd say bf is always popular
20:47:21 <oerjan> oh and befunge too, with fungot and with AnMaster improving his cfunge
20:47:22 <fungot> oerjan: i'm back.
20:47:36 <oerjan> i'd say a lot remains the same
20:49:49 <oerjan> <oklopol> i basically want balls to be closer to each other if they talk at the same time
20:50:01 <oerjan> i always knew you were a disturbing guy
20:51:23 <oerjan> <ehird> uh oh, oklopol writing an ai?
20:51:32 <asiekierka> Hmm... What about Crainf**k?
20:51:51 <oerjan> btw reddit said something about wolfram doing it (i didn't click the actual article)
20:51:55 <asiekierka> and what's cfunge
20:52:00 <asiekierka> Is Cfunge Befunge+C?
20:52:11 <oerjan> asiekierka: haven't heard crainf**k mentioned in a long time
20:52:16 <asiekierka> i mean
20:52:18 <oerjan> befunge in C
20:52:19 <asiekierka> what do you think about it
20:52:21 <oerjan> iiuc
20:52:34 <oerjan> and optimized for speed
20:53:29 <oerjan> <ehird> answer my question I have a bunker to make
20:53:32 <asiekierka> Also, Crainf**k looks sort of cool for me, but it's quite useless
20:53:47 <oerjan> bunkers won't help you when the earth is converted to computronium
20:54:08 <asiekierka> Well, who would want to make CF apps if there is a lot of interpreters there
20:54:46 * oerjan looks up crainfuck
20:54:52 <asiekierka> Someone should make a Ainf**k, BF+some ASM features, so you can make your own BF OS
20:54:53 <asiekierka> lol
20:54:56 <asiekierka> Well, I should
20:55:07 <asiekierka> basically, recompiling BF code to ASM code
20:55:19 * oerjan fails at contacting wiki
20:55:34 <asiekierka> Well
20:55:37 <asiekierka> it's BF with C features
20:55:47 <asiekierka> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Crainfuck
20:56:53 <asiekierka> I remember when my friend made this BF bootsector interpreter
20:56:57 <asiekierka> I still have it, actually
20:57:02 <asiekierka> Should be quite fast, eh? :D
20:57:31 <oerjan> but basically, most brainfuck derivatives get pretty low interest here
20:57:46 <oerjan> there are just too many of them
20:57:56 <impomatic> V looks interesting
20:58:03 <asiekierka> What about deriatives of DIFFERENT languages than BF
20:58:13 <oerjan> and the "gluing parts to a skateboard to make a racing car" adage applies
20:58:32 <asiekierka> Ok, but we lack an esolang to make OSes :(
20:58:34 <asiekierka> or something
20:59:00 <asiekierka> UNFUN FACT: The first days of me here (the very, very childish and lame "me") were ideas to make an OS esolang
20:59:03 <oerjan> the attempts to create ESO OSes tend to fizzle down too
20:59:09 <asiekierka> why?
20:59:50 <asiekierka> Well, i'm not talking about a whole OS
20:59:52 <asiekierka> just a mini-kernel
21:00:14 <asiekierka> I think befunge could handle it
21:00:38 <oerjan> yeah V was one of the better ones iirc (and i implemented it), although it still probably is not _used_ much...
21:01:05 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:01:56 <oerjan> ais523 has a project (underlambda) to make an esolang to convert between all other esolangs. nothing beyond basic IO though, and still unreleased
21:02:33 <oerjan> and yeah befunge has enough add-ons to be nearly an OS by itself...
21:02:45 <Sgeo> oerjan, what about anything + PSOX?
21:03:13 <oerjan> asiekierka: Sgeo here is one of those victims of fizzling down ;)
21:03:24 <impomatic> Has anyone actually written Hello World in V?
21:03:24 <impomatic> I know the bf one can be translated
21:03:27 <Sgeo> fizzling down?
21:03:41 <oerjan> <oerjan> the attempts to create ESO OSes tend to fizzle down too
21:04:23 <Sgeo> Hey, PSOX is mostly operational! (Also, it's not really an ESO OS unless I don't understand how you're defining ESO OS)
21:05:09 <asiekierka> PSOX?
21:05:20 <asiekierka> Sgeo, i define ESO OS by an OS/kernel programmed in an esolang
21:05:23 <asiekierka> or a slight variation of one
21:05:31 <oerjan> Sgeo: in this context, anything which attempts to make esolangs useful beyond stdin/stdout
21:05:33 <asiekierka> By "slight variation" I mean adding basic i/o or interrupt support
21:05:43 <asiekierka> :P
21:05:54 <oerjan> asiekierka: ah you mean something else than i then
21:06:35 <asiekierka> That I mean by "Esoteric-Kernel"
21:07:51 <asiekierka> A kernel programmed in an Esolang
21:07:55 <asiekierka> what about attempts of these
21:08:22 <oerjan> hm did GregorR not do something like an eso kernel once?
21:08:42 <asiekierka> what do you mean?
21:09:00 <oerjan> that was an attempt to ping him to confirm/deny
21:09:00 <GregorR> He did not.
21:09:05 <oerjan> ah.
21:09:11 <GregorR> Or at least, so I didn't hear.
21:09:23 <oerjan> but you did some kernel thing?
21:09:27 <GregorR> I had some vague ambitions leading to nothing.
21:09:38 <asiekierka> ...What?
21:09:39 <oerjan> ah another fizzling out victim
21:09:41 <GregorR> More a joke than an idea.
21:09:47 <asiekierka> Did you attempt it?
21:10:04 <Sgeo> oerjan, in what way did I fizzle out?
21:10:06 <oerjan> i had the impression you actually had something to the point of compiling
21:10:14 <GregorR> No. There's nothing spectacularly difficult about putting such a plan into motion, it's just amazingly opintless :P
21:10:16 <GregorR> *pointless
21:10:19 <GregorR> No, I never had code.
21:10:20 <oerjan> Sgeo: no one uses PSOX do they? :/
21:10:47 <oerjan> oh well my vague recall fails me for once
21:10:47 <Sgeo> What does that have to do with me fizzling out? It's everyone else's lack of interest at fault! lol
21:11:38 <asiekierka> I wonder whether to make one esolang kernel
21:11:45 <asiekierka> And boot it through that thing
21:11:52 <asiekierka> I will only need to add "raw access" to the floppy
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21:43:07 <ehird> 20:37 oerjan: i recall someone did that on #haskell
21:43:09 <ehird> I was at the center, iirc
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21:43:42 <ehird> asiekierka: UNFUN FACT: The first days of me here (the very, very childish and lame "me")
21:43:48 <ehird> there's another asiekierka?
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