←2009-03-15 2009-03-16 2009-03-17→ ↑2009 ↑all
00:05:45 <pikhq> fizzie: Well, SIFR seems to do absolutely nothing here.
00:06:10 <pikhq> Ah well. Means that things won't find a way to fuck with my font setting.
00:06:41 <AnMaster> <ehirdghost> "Actionscript inside of each Flash file then draws that text in your chosen typeface at a 6 point size and scales it up until it fits snugly inside the Flash movie. " <-- Why not do it in INTERCAL instead. Really it would make perfect sense for an esolang. But for this?...
00:07:00 <pikhq> (a nice serif font with thin lines; rather nice to read at a decent DPI)
00:07:00 <fizzie> sIFR does nothing with noscript, either, but still.
00:07:15 <pikhq> I don't have noscript. Just AdBlock...
00:07:26 <AnMaster> I use both noscript and adblock plus
00:07:35 <AnMaster> and have no flash or java plugins
00:07:39 <pikhq> Noscript doesn't work with Conkeror.
00:08:00 <fizzie> "sIFR runs fine under other extensions like AdBlock"; that shouldn't be related.
00:08:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, mhm
00:08:16 <AnMaster> and why do you use that?
00:08:29 <pikhq> Mouseless browsing.
00:08:33 <AnMaster> ok
00:09:04 <pikhq> And it's XULrunner based, so just about everything works anyways.
00:09:07 <ehirdghost> Conkeror is emacs for Firefox.
00:09:17 <pikhq> Emacs for Gecko, rather.
00:09:20 <ehirdghost> I am not sure why that would elicit a "why" from AnMaster.
00:09:29 <pikhq> It's not been a Firefox extension for a couple of years.
00:09:30 <ehirdghost> pikhq: It's rather more Firefox than just Gecko
00:09:36 * SimonRC <3 the future.
00:09:40 <fizzie> Anyway; sIFR is not the stupidest thing I've seen (I mean, it's not like placing body text in an image, for example; and they strongly advise against using it for body text, anyway), just silley.
00:09:44 <pikhq> It's XULrunner.
00:09:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, agreed
00:09:58 <pikhq> Which is Gecko with the ability to load arbitrary XUL...
00:10:06 <SimonRC> We do things by pulling little computer programs across the world
00:10:32 <fizzie> Soon we'll have intelligent agents running around!
00:11:09 <ehirdghost> SimonRC: wut
00:11:10 <AnMaster> firefox use xulrunner...
00:11:28 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, duh. read what he said above
00:11:40 <ehirdghost> 23:09 SimonRC <3 the future.
00:11:41 <ehirdghost> 23:10 SimonRC: We do things by pulling little computer programs across the world
00:11:42 <ehirdghost> I repeat: wt.
00:11:44 <ehirdghost> wut
00:11:46 <AnMaster> it is crystal clear...
00:11:47 <AnMaster> duh
00:11:49 <AnMaster> night btw
00:11:53 <ehirdghost> Er, it is?
00:12:13 <SimonRC> yeah, we live in the future
00:12:23 <ehirdghost> I am fairly sure we live in the present, SimonRC.
00:12:30 <ehirdghost> Fairly sure indeed.
00:12:38 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, no. You are a ghost. You don't live
00:12:43 <AnMaster> you lived in the past.
00:12:47 <SimonRC> s/the future/The Future/
00:12:50 <pikhq> AnMaster: By the way, we've been pulling little computer programs across the world for stuff since at *least* the invention of Javascript. ;)
00:12:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, indeed.
00:13:07 <pikhq> Probably longer, if you count, say, UUCP.
00:13:10 <ehirdghost> AnMaster: I metalive.
00:13:18 <SimonRC> I am not certain, but I think I was thinking this before Munroe made a comic about it
00:13:25 <ehirdghost> I never metalive I didn't like.
00:13:34 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, I chose to ignore that pun and instead point out that is not valid grammar.
00:13:56 <ehirdghost> I will now metakill you.
00:14:28 <AnMaster> also why is "I never meta<something> I <something>" supposed to be funny? It is a rather lame pun IMO.
00:15:39 <fizzie> Incidentally, how do the licensing terms go; if I have a copy of OS X, can I use some of the bundled fonts on a different computar? (I'm not sure I want to, just hypothetically speaking.)
00:15:46 <AnMaster> computer*
00:16:04 <fizzie> Oh, sorry, I meant CANTOR-UPPER.
00:16:05 <ehirdghost> fizzie: I'm not sure. There's no DRM or anything; I don't think anyone cares.
00:16:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, that made no sense.
00:16:44 <AnMaster> it is noway near "computer" when you pronounce it
00:16:44 <ehirdghost> fizzie: I don't think there is anything in the EULA or whatnot.
00:17:00 <ehirdghost> fizzie: So it'd just be standard copyright law; if you're using it on another computer you own, fair use, probably.
00:17:06 <pikhq> fizzie: Assuming the computer in question supports TrueType or OpenType, yeah.
00:17:20 <ehirdghost> pikhq: he means can as in legally
00:17:22 <ehirdghost> "is it allowed"
00:17:25 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, what if you use it in a document and that cause it to be bundled...
00:17:35 <ehirdghost> Oh, all fonts let you bundle them in PDFs and whatnot, I think/
00:17:41 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, say a document with the entire UTF-8 chart :D
00:17:45 <pikhq> Most any sane one, at least.
00:17:53 <AnMaster> so end user can extract it all
00:17:57 <fizzie> Yay; if that's the truedness, there's some form of common sense left.
00:18:01 <AnMaster> would that be legal?
00:18:03 <ehirdghost> fizzie: I've done it
00:18:08 <ehirdghost> I just used a converter of .dfont -> .ttf, iirc
00:18:11 <ehirdghost> and it worked fine
00:18:13 <ehirdghost> Called "fondu"
00:18:22 <ehirdghost> No DRM or anything; one command line invocation and an upload
00:18:27 <pikhq> BTW, fun fact. Typefaces are not subject to copyright.
00:18:27 <fizzie> Yes, well, I have it from reputable sources that you also download QuickBASIC copies of dubious legality.
00:18:34 <ehirdghost> pikhq: Really?
00:18:41 <oerjan> ehirdghost: sounds a bit cheesy
00:18:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, what are they subject to then? And is that US only?
00:18:46 <ehirdghost> pikhq: Then why was Arial ever created?
00:18:50 <pikhq> The *computer code* describing them can be.
00:18:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, augh
00:19:07 <pikhq> ehirdghost: Novel and non-obvious designs can be patented.
00:19:16 <ehirdghost> Helvetica is pretty "obvious"...
00:19:22 <pikhq> Yeah.
00:20:34 <ehirdghost> As a side note, does anyone actually use Zapfino?
00:20:36 <AnMaster> opentype contains parts under patent
00:20:37 <ehirdghost> It's utterly unreadabl
00:20:38 <ehirdghost> e
00:21:03 <pikhq> Other countries have typeface copyright.
00:21:10 <fizzie> Uh, I'm not sure "file" is correct here: "Monaco.dfont: MS Windows icon resource"
00:21:14 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah; mostly the hinting algorithms, IIRC.
00:21:16 <ehirdghost> pikhq: Does Europe?
00:21:19 <ehirdghost> fizzie: :-D
00:21:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, others == non-US or?
00:21:24 <ehirdghost> Monaco is love.
00:21:32 <pikhq> Others == non-US.
00:21:44 <ehirdghost> "Unfortunately, just before the project was completed, Siegel wrote a letter to Zapf, saying that his girlfriend had left him, and that he had lost all interest in anything. Thus Siegel abandoned the project and started a new life, working on bringing color to Macintosh computers, and later becoming an Internet design expert. "
00:21:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, who cares about US?
00:21:46 <ehirdghost> XDD
00:21:48 <AnMaster> I don't
00:22:00 <pikhq> Sorry; hard to get out of US-centric phrasing sometimes.
00:22:00 <ehirdghost> AnMaster: Yes, I know you take pride in your rabid hate of the US (because IT'S POPULAR or something).
00:22:06 <ehirdghost> Most of us don't.
00:22:31 <pikhq> Also, Zapfino? Unreadable?
00:22:42 <ehirdghost> Ehm, yes.
00:23:04 <pikhq> No, it looks like calligraphic text. Rather readable, though probably not the best for long works.
00:23:17 <ehirdghost> well, it's hard for me to read…
00:23:35 <AnMaster> OS X specific?
00:23:41 <AnMaster> I can't find it here
00:23:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: OS X builtin font.
00:23:53 <AnMaster> screenshot?
00:24:00 <ehirdghost> entirely separate from os x
00:24:04 <ehirdghost> but bundled with OS X
00:24:14 <ehirdghost> saying "OS X specific" is Wrong; I don't know of any OS X only fonts.
00:24:21 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Zapfino.svg
00:24:23 <ehirdghost> maybe Geneva
00:24:39 <AnMaster> that's nice
00:24:48 <AnMaster> readable for being a calligraphic one
00:24:49 <ehirdghost> AnMaster: Yes, but try reading text in it
00:25:03 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, It would be good for logos or such
00:25:08 <AnMaster> not for long works no
00:25:25 <pikhq> ehirdghost: Calligraphic fonts aren't meant for long works...
00:25:28 <AnMaster> but why so many variants there
00:25:31 <ehirdghost> Of course.
00:25:35 <ehirdghost> But even for titles.
00:25:43 <ehirdghost> AnMaster: it has over 18,000 ligs
00:25:45 <AnMaster> and how do you select which one?
00:25:48 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, wow....
00:25:50 <ehirdghost> and manually
00:25:52 <ehirdghost> afaik
00:25:56 <pikhq> XeTeX. ;)
00:26:04 <ehirdghost> er wait
00:26:06 <ehirdghost> 1,400 ligs
00:26:09 <ehirdghost> still insane
00:26:12 <AnMaster> ah ok
00:26:26 <ehirdghost> I'ma download MacTeX
00:26:34 <ehirdghost> Does it still use that ugly iInstaller crap, I wonder.
00:27:34 <ehirdghost> Oh lord, FTP.
00:27:39 <ehirdghost> Why, why FTP.
00:27:55 <ehirdghost> Ah, an HTTP mirror.
00:28:01 <ehirdghost> 700KB/sec. Most excellent.
00:28:03 <ehirdghost> Thank you Germany.
00:28:16 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, what is wrong with ftp....
00:28:21 <ehirdghost> Everything
00:28:38 <AnMaster> well, passive ftp works fine in my experience
00:28:57 <pikhq> Aside from it's connecting back to the initiator of the connection for the transfer link, it's a decent protocol.
00:29:03 <pikhq> Perhaps a bit overengineered, though.
00:29:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, indeed
00:29:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, parallel transfers are nice though
00:29:20 <ehirdghost> It's completely insecure in every way, and for passive basic file downloads it has 0 advantages compared to HTTP
00:29:22 <pikhq> True, true.
00:29:26 <ehirdghost> And several disadvantages
00:29:30 <pikhq> Such as?
00:29:40 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, apart from connect back?
00:29:55 <ehirdghost> pikhq: have you ever _used_ FTP/
00:29:57 <ehirdghost> ?
00:30:03 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, I have
00:30:08 <AnMaster> for both up and download
00:30:24 <pikhq> Yes, I have.
00:30:27 <AnMaster> works well, apart from the insecure bit and separate data channel.
00:30:29 <Ilari> Also, the server software required for it is bit too large...
00:30:33 -!- Corun has joined.
00:30:45 <AnMaster> Ilari, err. ISS is a bit insecure. Lets drop http
00:30:56 <AnMaster> Ilari, there are small FTP servers.
00:30:57 <AnMaster> ...
00:31:00 <pikhq> ftp(1) is a rather nice program.
00:31:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, indeed. I prefer sftp though mostly. For security
00:31:28 <pikhq> Ilari: Uh, ftpd probably comes in under a megabyte.
00:31:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: Well, yeah.
00:32:08 <Ilari> AnMaster: Implementing HTTP server is probably smaller task than implementing FTP server...
00:32:13 <fizzie> At least with FTP you can, on host C, transfer data between servers A and B without things going through C.
00:32:29 <AnMaster> Ilari, "probably"?
00:32:29 <fizzie> It is horribly complicated due to historical raisins, though.
00:32:29 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit).
00:32:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, I managed that with scp iirc
00:33:04 <fizzie> I find it very unlikely that scp can do it.
00:33:12 <pikhq> Sftp can, scp can't.
00:33:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, maybe sftp then
00:33:16 <AnMaster> ok
00:33:43 <fizzie> How do you do it with sftp, then?
00:34:15 <pikhq> sftp foo:bar baz:
00:34:32 * ehirdghost boo
00:34:36 <ehirdghost> Sorry, had to fill my ghost quota.
00:34:50 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, so what was the issue you had with ftp?
00:34:56 <ehirdghost> AnMaster: Whooooo
00:35:00 <ehirdghost> WHOAOOAOOOOOO
00:35:02 <AnMaster> you never answered what apart from separate control channel
00:35:12 <pikhq> s/sftp/scp/; sorry. sftp is a ftp-style program, and current scp programs are just sftp frontends.
00:35:13 <fizzie> pikhq: That writes to local file "baz:" here.
00:35:20 <pikhq> Really?!?
00:35:26 <ehirdghost> "and current scp programs are just sftp frontends."
00:35:28 <ehirdghost> Wait what?
00:35:31 <AnMaster> no
00:35:38 <pikhq> Sorry. That was an epic thinko.
00:35:45 <AnMaster> they are not
00:35:53 <pikhq> THAT WAS DUMB.
00:35:59 <ehirdghost> :|
00:36:19 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, still. I'm waiting for an answer
00:36:19 <ehirdghost> I enjoy infuriating you by withholding it. :P
00:36:19 <AnMaster> you seem to avoid answering the question
00:36:20 <ehirdghost> WHOAOAOAOA
00:36:39 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, well I just think it means you can't think of any rational reasons
00:36:40 <AnMaster> :P
00:36:44 <AnMaster> so your loss
00:36:49 <ehirdghost> That's your prerogative
00:37:59 <AnMaster> that comment made me even more sure about what I just said
00:38:12 <fizzie> I get "Permission denied, please try again. Permission denied, please try again. Permission denied (publickey,password,hostbased)." for a two-host scp thing. That is a bit strange.
00:38:13 <ehirdghost> If you haven't realised yet, I really don't care what you think about me.
00:38:28 <ehirdghost> Gawd, MacTex is 1GB… I don't even know how that's possible… still in awe
00:38:35 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, I think you do actually. Just are afraid to admit it
00:38:46 <ehirdghost> AnMaster: hahahaaha; you wish, maybe
00:39:04 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, you feel insecure in yourself
00:39:20 <ehirdghost> "you show all the signs of not caring what I think about you; therefore you are insecure and secretly desire my confirmation but are too scared to seek it"
00:39:29 <ehirdghost> Yes, I'm sure. Solid reasoning there.
00:39:53 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, except you don't "show all signs of not caring". You rather try to show that but fail.
00:40:01 <AnMaster> Which is very different
00:40:23 <ehirdghost> You're opening up my heart and showing me my deepest desires. It would be heartbreaking if it wasn't bullshit.
00:41:04 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, Yes you are scared to admit it. The more you deny it, the more you prove it. ;P
00:41:23 <ehirdghost> I am not a ghost. I am not a ghost. I am not a ghost. I am not a ghost. I am not a ghost. I am not a ghost. I am not a ghost. I am not a ghost.
00:41:26 <ehirdghost> Now you have to believe I am.
00:41:50 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, Um, how does that follow logically
00:42:06 -!- FireyFly has quit ("Later").
00:42:09 <ehirdghost> "X is true. Evidence: You are denying X many times."
00:42:17 <AnMaster> I didn't say everything was opposite of what you said.
00:42:51 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, also just ask random $person with a tinfoil hat! The gov denies it so it must be tru!
00:42:53 <AnMaster> true!*
00:42:56 <AnMaster> ~
00:43:04 <ehirdghost> 9/11 was an inside loeb
00:43:10 <AnMaster> loeb?
00:43:27 <ehirdghost> []([]P -> P) -> []P
00:43:39 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, ...?
00:43:45 <AnMaster> haskell I see
00:43:48 <ehirdghost> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Löb's_theorem
00:43:55 <AnMaster> hm no
00:43:59 <ehirdghost> hm yes.
00:44:01 <AnMaster> Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. Please search for Löbs theorem in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or spellings.
00:44:02 <ehirdghost> err
00:44:03 <ehirdghost> hm no
00:44:09 <ehirdghost> I didn't see what you asid
00:44:14 <ehirdghost> AnMaster: you forgot the apostrophe
00:44:35 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, my irc client did
00:44:42 <AnMaster> click fail
00:45:52 <AnMaster> "There is a paraconsistent version in Carl Hewitt [2008]." <-- ?
00:45:59 <AnMaster> wth does that mean
00:46:07 <ehirdghost> don't you have a dictionary?
00:46:24 <AnMaster> not here, and parents are sleeping in the room with it
00:46:26 <AnMaster> so no
00:46:43 <ehirdghost> Your computer blocks all dictionary sites?
00:46:44 <ehirdghost> How queer.
00:46:58 <oerjan> except the gay ones, obviously
00:47:01 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, that was a result of your curse before
00:47:08 <AnMaster> since you typoed it
00:47:32 <ehirdghost> T'was no typo; was the speak of thine ghosts.
00:47:52 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, well that made it misfire
00:48:03 <ehirdghost> We have an extravolutionary version of the language communicasystem; for extra extrapossibilities with which to extrapolate.
00:48:06 <AnMaster> so now it blocks me googling for anything you mentions
00:48:09 <AnMaster> for life
00:48:10 <ehirdghost> fizzie appears to be fluent in it while alive; though.
00:48:16 <ehirdghost> Or maybe he is a ghost.
00:48:24 <ehirdghost> AnMaster: Wikipedia mentioned paraconsistent, not I.
00:48:35 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, directly or indirectly
00:48:40 <AnMaster> so it affects this
00:48:42 <ehirdghost> AnMaster: Everything.
00:48:47 <ehirdghost> Now you can never use Google.
00:48:59 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, not for the word "everything" no
00:49:10 <AnMaster> this is only literal phrases like that
00:49:14 <ehirdghost> AMD. Intel. x86. x86_64
00:49:17 <AnMaster> and I already know that word
00:49:18 <ehirdghost> Befunge.
00:49:20 <ehirdghost> cfunge.
00:49:21 <AnMaster> and those
00:49:24 <AnMaster> so it won't affect
00:49:27 <ehirdghost> AnMaster: You can never look up info about them
00:49:28 <AnMaster> only unknown ones
00:49:36 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, wrong. Only unknown words
00:50:00 <ehirdghost> That is particularly arbitrary.
00:50:05 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, plus due to the misfire it is time limited. Lasts about 1-1.5 weeks in average :/
00:50:20 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, well if you haven't typoed it, it wouldn't have misfired
00:50:34 <ehirdghost> If this sentence is true, then AnMaster is cursed.
00:50:38 <ehirdghost> Logical bomb in your face.
00:51:02 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, fail to see the logical bomb there...
00:51:16 <ehirdghost> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry's_paradox
00:52:42 <AnMaster> ok. That is just a false statement due to the A then B not being a casual connection
00:53:00 <ehirdghost> I see you didn't read the article.
00:53:46 <AnMaster> not the whole yet. But false was the wrong word. The right word would be: logical nonsense not connected with the real world.
00:54:09 <ehirdghost> Yeah, uh, keep reading.
00:55:18 <AnMaster> "In formal languages, we sometimes interpret "If X then Y" as a material conditional. On this reading, it simply means "Y, or else not X". Here we would read the sentence as "Santa Claus exists, or this sentence is false". On this reading, Curry's paradox is simply a variant on the liar paradox. However, in natural language this is not usually what we mean by "If X then Y". For instance, "if 6*7=42, t
00:55:18 <AnMaster> hen the moon exists" is true as a material implication, but is generally not considered true in natural language, because the moon's existence does not seem to be related to this fact of arithmetic."
00:55:20 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, ^
00:55:35 <ehirdghost> yes
00:56:10 <AnMaster> in other words. the claim describes a non-existent causal connection.
00:56:18 <AnMaster> or: logical nonsense
00:58:41 <ehirdghost> modusPonens :: (p -> q, p) -> q
00:59:19 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, natural language isn't an exact science
00:59:24 <AnMaster> languages*
00:59:35 <ehirdghost> Shush, I'm doing logics in mah type system.
00:59:47 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, well not abov
00:59:50 <AnMaster> above'
00:59:51 <AnMaster> *
00:59:55 <AnMaster> when you said it
01:00:00 <ehirdghost> Anyway, a proof of the above proposition:
01:00:03 <AnMaster> blergh this kbedor
01:00:05 <ehirdghost> modusPonens (f, x) = f x
01:00:06 <AnMaster> keyboard*
01:00:44 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, as I said. Why would it be related
01:00:52 <AnMaster> you have to prove to me there is such a connection first
01:01:02 <ehirdghost> I was making a cheap joke.
01:01:03 <ehirdghost> Chill.
01:01:37 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, I mean I think this paradox is rather lame. It forgets about this think called "false claim" even "lie"
01:01:50 <AnMaster> not much of a paradox
01:02:00 <AnMaster> if you enter garbage you will get garbage back
01:02:05 <ehirdghost> Err, I don't think you understood it.
01:02:11 <ehirdghost> oerjan: care to explain it to him?
01:03:14 <AnMaster> ehirdghost,
01:03:38 <AnMaster> try telling someone on the street
01:04:01 <AnMaster> "if this sentence is true, then you must give me all your money"
01:04:07 <AnMaster> see what reaction you get
01:04:21 <pikhq> Bweheheh.
01:04:37 <ehirdghost> Yes, because going up to a random person on a street is an environment of complete logic and formal reasoning.
01:04:48 <ehirdghost> That happens to be the most retarded reasoning I've heard today, though. I'll give you that.
01:05:25 <pikhq> It is, of course, sanest to observe that there is nothing compelling anyone to give you money, therefore the sentence is quite false.
01:05:35 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, Yes it is the same because natural languages allow this thing called lie. You have to prove your "if A then B" really is a connection that exists
01:05:51 <ehirdghost> did you actually look at the formal language section
01:06:03 <ehirdghost> oerjan: please relieve the strain from my being and explain it to him
01:06:04 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, natural languages isn't a formal language
01:06:19 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, and you said it in natural language first
01:07:18 <pikhq> Say it in Lojban.
01:07:23 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, so tell me, why do you think the initial assertment: if true then P is valid?
01:07:23 <pikhq> ;)
01:07:45 <ehirdghost> oerjan; I'm tired of this idiot, plz take him
01:08:01 <AnMaster> I'm just saying if you put in garbage you get garbage back
01:08:07 <AnMaster> try being practical
01:08:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, I don't know lojban
01:09:19 <ehirdghost> Practical or logically correct.
01:09:23 <ehirdghost> I take the latter.
01:09:36 <AnMaster> I'd prefer to combine them
01:09:46 <ehirdghost> You let the former take precedence, evidently.
01:09:51 <AnMaster> a down to earth approach
01:10:00 <AnMaster> that actually gives useful results
01:10:17 <ehirdghost> I might think you less of an idiot if your only argument wasn't "that's wrong, ask a random person on the street"
01:10:33 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, I have given a lot of other arguments
01:10:45 <ehirdghost> To the ether, maybe—certainly not here.
01:10:48 <AnMaster> and that one was mostly a joke
01:11:06 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, ........ read scrollback
01:11:14 <ehirdghost> I did; maybe you're hallucinating.
01:11:38 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, I told you that you need to verify your claims are relevant before you use them
01:11:54 <AnMaster> if pink then blue
01:12:16 <ehirdghost> Try making logical sense; or don't because I can't be arsed, you're clearly not interested in actual logic more than fuzzy human intuitive belief bullshit
01:12:17 <AnMaster> now what does that mean? does it make a lot of sense? No 1) it is out of context.
01:12:45 <AnMaster> 2) even if it was in context, how could you know that this implication is really true
01:13:14 <AnMaster> logic is a useful tool only when you put useful input into it
01:13:29 <AnMaster> if you just feed it random data you will get garbage back
01:13:53 <ehirdghost> You know, that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
01:13:56 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, clearly you fail to see you need to verify the initial assertions to be able to extrapolate from them
01:13:58 <ehirdghost> Do you actually understand what you'r esaying?
01:14:02 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, yes
01:14:06 <AnMaster> you don't I see
01:14:14 <ehirdghost> I think you should read the article very carefully again.
01:14:26 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, I did. And you saw I quoted a bit ?
01:14:38 <AnMaster> "For instance, "if 6*7=42, then the moon exists" is true as a material implication, but is generally not considered true in natural language, because the moon's existence does not seem to be related to this fact of arithmetic."
01:14:42 <AnMaster> read that again please
01:14:57 <ehirdghost> Yes, you missed the bit that came next. Anyway, fuck off, this is boring and you clearly have no grasp of logic whatsoever.
01:15:08 <AnMaster> ...
01:15:25 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, lets say you are coding in prolog
01:15:36 <ehirdghost> Not. Interested.
01:15:36 <AnMaster> and listing initial "facts" or whatever
01:16:00 <AnMaster> then don't those facts also have to be true for the problem you are trying to solve
01:16:03 <AnMaster> to be useful?
01:16:14 <ehirdghost> Did you miss where I said not interested?
01:16:14 <AnMaster> You can only build your your axiojms
01:16:17 <AnMaster> axioms*
01:16:26 <ehirdghost> You're an idiot; you completely misunderstand Curry's paradox, and I am tired of talking.
01:16:27 <AnMaster> if your axioms are false... tough luck
01:16:38 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, good thing you are writing then
01:16:44 <ehirdghost> Curry's paradox has nothing to do with defining axioms whatsoever. Go. Away
01:21:30 <AnMaster> I suggest a system with three truth values: true, false, EPARADOX (fatal error)
01:21:34 <AnMaster> ~
01:21:55 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, ;Å
01:21:57 <AnMaster> ;P*
01:22:06 * oerjan is glad he was afk
01:23:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, do you agree that if you enter false initial "facts/axioms" in a theorem prover you will get a useless result back?
01:23:13 <AnMaster> yes or no
01:23:22 <oerjan> sure
01:23:24 <ehirdghost> that's nothing to do with curry's paradox
01:23:34 <AnMaster> from the wikipedia page it seems to be that
01:23:51 <AnMaster> if foo then bar. Well sure. If that connection actually holds.
01:23:56 <ehirdghost> oerjan: can you explain curry's paradox to him…
01:24:02 <AnMaster> but if it doesn't. Tough luck
01:25:04 <oerjan> no tonight my dear, i've got a headache
01:25:08 <oerjan> *not
01:25:09 <AnMaster> now a really interesting paradox is Russel's paradox for example.
01:25:22 <ehirdghost> curry's paradox is a generalization of russell's paradox.
01:25:59 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, well I have been discussing this in the context of the natural language case. Which is what we begin with.
01:26:15 <ehirdghost> natural language doesn't excuse you from using logic
01:26:43 <AnMaster> no, but natural language is well known for not being a formally well defined language
01:27:52 <ehirdghost> By your logic, all representations of logical formula in natural language suddenly lose their attachment to logic because you change '->' to 'implies'.
01:30:14 <AnMaster> For instance, consider the following sentence:
01:30:14 <AnMaster> If a man with flying reindeer has delivered presents to all the good children in the world in one night, then Santa Claus exists.
01:30:14 <AnMaster> Imagine that a man with flying reindeer has, in fact, done this. Does Santa Claus exist, in that case? It would seem so. <-- sounds probable yes. But it *could* be someone else doing it. It would need further investigation. Such an event would be circumstantial evidence. Not proof
01:30:21 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, ^
01:30:42 <ehirdghost> Say, remember when I said I don't give a shit that you're logically illiterate?
01:30:46 <ehirdghost> Guess what hasn't changed?
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01:31:22 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, the fact that this is not really a paradox in natural languages. Just a nonsense statement
01:31:33 <AnMaster> that hasn't changed
01:33:04 * SimonRC goes to bed.
01:33:09 <AnMaster> same
01:33:10 <AnMaster> night
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02:48:05 <oerjan> it's alive!
02:48:16 <oerjan> (BWAHAHA)
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09:34:56 <psygnisfive> hm
09:35:07 <psygnisfive> natural language quantifiers are AWESOME.
09:35:12 <psygnisfive> i just feel you should know this.
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15:16:03 <ehird> hi
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15:21:05 <zzo38> Nobody is ever actively on #anagol even though some names are listed
15:21:12 <zzo38> Why is that?
15:21:59 <ehird> it's not too popular a channel
15:22:02 <ehird> Sometimes people talk
15:22:20 <ehird> A lot of people leave their IRC clients on to read what people said when they're not away, for channels that aren't logged
15:22:21 <ehird> I do that
15:22:29 <ehird> Maybe some of them will have away set in /whois
15:23:43 <zzo38> I tried whois shinh and stuff like that but I'm not sure if that means they are away or not
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15:27:41 <zzo38> I tried various names with whois command but I can't see anything about away, is there some code for being away that I forgot about?
15:27:50 <ehird> It shows up if they are away
15:28:05 <ehird> My IRC client says shinh hasn't talked for 59 hours
15:29:35 <Asztal_> in my client I have to do /wii for that
15:29:52 <zzo38> I can only get idle time for whois on myself. And if it shows up when they are away, which line does it show up on, the 311 line or the 320 line or some other line?
15:30:12 <zzo38> What does "/wii" means
15:30:16 <fizzie> You need to ask the remote server if you want idle-time information. /wii is a common alias, "/whois nick nick" usually works too.
15:30:46 <fizzie> "/wii nick" => "/whois nick nick", which means "ask nick's whois-info from the server nick is on".
15:31:05 <zzo38> O, thanks I did "whois shinh shinh" and I got the idle time for shinh (214878 seconds)
15:31:16 <fizzie> That's a lot of seconds.
15:31:53 <ehird> fizzie: you know TeX, right? How do you put a \ in the document?
15:31:56 <zzo38> Well yes, the IRC server returns it in seconds I did the calculation it is approx 59.7 hours
15:32:30 <fizzie> ehird: You can do $\backslash$ although it might look non-text-like since it's math-mode-fluff.
15:32:36 <ehird> Ah.
15:32:43 <ehird> Is there a \rawcodeystylething{} block thang?
15:32:48 <ehird> That would work
15:33:37 <fizzie> There seems to be a \textbackslash command, according to some reference.
15:33:37 <zzo38> Thanks for telling me I need to indicate the name twice if I want the 317 line (although I'm not sure why the server shouldn't figure that out automatically?)
15:34:09 <ehird> zzo38: IRC is weird
15:34:15 <ehird> Probably it was done this way for backwards compatibility
15:34:48 <fizzie> And another place says "\char`\\", which is a piece of raw TeX, should also work.
15:34:59 <zzo38> ehird: OK. However I can get the 317 line for myself without needing to type my name twice.
15:35:03 <fizzie> If you want a large block of verbatim text, there's of course \begin{verbatim} ... \end{verbatim}.
15:35:12 <fizzie> You get the 317 line for everyone who happens to be on the same server as you.
15:35:16 <fizzie> At least you should.
15:35:57 * AnMaster wonders how to get GCC to generate an integer constant without $ in inline asm
15:35:57 <zzo38> O. So does it do that to save bandwidth from accessing other servers when it doesn't have to?
15:36:05 <fizzie> Could be that.
15:36:22 <fizzie> There's also a \verb=xyz= command which does xyz verbatim, but maybe \ is too extra-magical even for that.
15:36:37 <ehird> Is there a superscript/subscript combiner in unicode?
15:36:52 <fizzie> (You can freely use any delimiter instead of = there as long as it's not in the verbatim-string.)
15:37:22 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
15:37:32 <ehird> Well, I only want a superscript A and a subscript E.
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15:38:42 <fizzie> There are super/subscript numbers, and a couple of other characters too.
15:39:05 <ehird> Yes, I've looked.
15:39:28 <AnMaster> <ehird> zzo38: IRC is weird <-- I know the details about why name twice if you are interested
15:39:46 <AnMaster> it isn't exactly what you suggested
15:41:31 <fizzie> What is there outside of the RFC's "If the <target> parameter is specified, it sends the query to a specific server. It is useful if you want to know how long the user in question has been idle as only local server knows that information, while everything else is globally known" explanation?
15:41:45 <ehird> http://filebin.ca/jrtvbo/first-test.pdf A most delightful X∃LaTₑX (see how hard I worked on that?) output. Bring Hoefler Text (or, wait, is it embedded in the PDF?).
15:42:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is it yes.
15:42:21 <ehird> Err, it's 16 March.
15:42:22 <ehird> Not 17.
15:42:30 <ehird> Please ignore that time-travelling document.
15:42:47 <fizzie> Yes, I think it embeds-by-default.
15:43:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, using a non-server name means asking the server that first nick is on
15:43:03 <fizzie> Although I can't be sure, since I don't remember what Hoefler Text should look like.
15:43:06 <AnMaster> so double name...
15:43:11 <AnMaster> double nick*
15:43:33 <fizzie> Yes, I fail to see how that is different from my "nick nick means ask the server nick is on" explanation.
15:43:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, well on freenode it is. Due to freenode's server hiding
15:43:53 <ehird> fizzie: if you screenshot, I'll tell you if it's right :P
15:44:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, you never get idle time with anything but repeating nick
15:44:15 <AnMaster> security by obscurity
15:44:19 <AnMaster> -_-
15:44:54 <fizzie> ehird: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/what_foolishness_is_this.png
15:45:10 <Asztal_> LªTₑX!
15:45:17 <ehird> fizzie: That's hideous, but I suppose that's Linux font rendering thar.
15:45:23 <ehird> Asztal_: aha
15:45:28 <ehird> X∃LªTₑX
15:45:31 <ehird> Now we just need uppercase versions
15:45:49 <ehird> fizzie: It has the right shapes, so, success.
15:46:08 <ehird> By the way, that is a copyrighted image and I will sue you.
15:48:45 <ehird> Asztal_: there should be a combining uppercase :P
15:49:04 <fizzie> There are COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER [AEIOUCDHMRTVX]; that's a very random-sounding set.
15:50:00 <AnMaster> wth is up with http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/what_foolishness_is_this.png
15:50:21 <ehird> what do you mean what's up with it
15:50:26 <ehird> it looks fine
15:50:32 <AnMaster> well it is as you said hideous.
15:50:32 <ehird> apart from the bad linux font rendering
15:50:39 <ehird> AnMaster: try the pdf on your system
15:50:44 <ehird> It will probably look nicer
15:50:44 <AnMaster> ehird, pdftex generally renders better than that
15:50:49 <ehird> It renders fine
15:50:51 <ehird> on my system.
15:50:54 <AnMaster> mhm
15:50:54 <ehird> it's the font, Hoefler Text
15:50:59 <ehird> It demands good rendering :P
15:51:08 <AnMaster> ehird, well Apple has patents on the important rendering bits
15:51:09 <AnMaster> ...
15:51:16 <ehird> So you keep saying.
15:51:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I even linked you some weeks or so ago
15:51:29 <ehird> Yes. Yes you did.
15:51:55 <fizzie> That's viewed-with-xpdf, in case it matters.
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15:52:48 * AnMaster wonders what Helvetica with serifs would look like
15:53:12 <fizzie> It does look rather different with, say, Evince.
15:53:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh?
15:54:04 <ehird> 14:52 AnMaster wonders what Helvetica with serifs would look like <-- Unlike Helvetica.
15:54:14 <fizzie> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/evince_version.png
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15:54:24 <ehird> fizzie: oh, that's significantly better
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15:54:35 <ehird> as in I can actually read it and it looks similar to the rendering at my end
15:55:12 <AnMaster> hm
15:55:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about kpdf?
15:55:54 <fizzie> I don't have it on this thing.
15:56:00 <AnMaster> hm ok
15:56:05 <fizzie> There's acroread, some version.
15:56:08 <AnMaster> how comes pdf renders so differently?
15:56:35 <AnMaster> I thought the point of pdf was to render the same
15:56:42 <ehird> AnMaster: different font rendering
15:56:50 <ehird> Here's how it looks on my end: http://imgur.com/74ZOM.png. It probably won't look very nice unless you have a high-DPI display with the right colour profile.
15:57:23 <AnMaster> ehird, it looks hideous on this monitor
15:57:57 <fizzie> It looks reasonably nice on this.
15:58:28 <fizzie> Where "reasonably nice" means I like it more than Evince, I think.
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15:59:47 <ehird> Hoefler Text's serifs probably would fit better on print.
15:59:56 <fizzie> Heh, Firefox went and crashed when I opened gnome-control-center and twiddled with the font rendering settings.
16:00:06 <AnMaster> Anyone here know GCC inline assembler?
16:00:15 <ehird> AnMaster: gcc's manual does :P
16:00:21 <fizzie> Well, I've done it a little bit.
16:00:21 <AnMaster> ehird, well not enough
16:00:27 <AnMaster> I have read it and not found a solution
16:00:28 <fizzie> I think I missed the question.
16:00:29 <ehird> It documents it all, afaik.
16:00:30 <ehird> Ask #gcc.
16:00:32 <AnMaster> I'm trying to something like this (but with more instructions to make it useful):
16:00:33 <AnMaster> asm("leaq %[size]+%[var],%%rdx" : [var] "=m"(myvar) : [size] "i"(sizeof(myvar)) : "rdx");
16:00:33 <AnMaster> Where myvar is a static array of fixed size. Size is known at compile time, but may vary depending on compile time options. I would expect it to generate something like:
16:00:33 <AnMaster> leaq 2097152+myvar(%rip),%rdx
16:00:33 <AnMaster> But in fact it generates this invalid (at least gas thinks so) assembler:
16:00:34 <AnMaster> leaq $2097152+myvar(%rip),%rdx
16:00:36 <AnMaster> How can I get GCC to not include that first $ there? I have looked at the GCC documentation and found no way to work around it
16:00:44 <ehird> Using the plain TEX notation $$ . . . $$ for displayed equations is not recom-
16:00:44 <ehird> mended. Although it is not expressly forbidden in LATEX, it is not documented anywhere in the LATEX book
16:00:47 <ehird> as being part of the LATEX command set, and it interferes with the proper operation of various features
16:00:50 <ehird> such as the fleqn option.
16:00:52 <ehird> Huh.
16:00:59 <ehird> AnMaster: [size] instead of %[size]?
16:01:23 <AnMaster> ehird, that doesn't substitute at all. I tried it.
16:01:34 <AnMaster> leaq [size]+myvar(%rip),%rdx
16:01:40 <ehird> Then you can't do it.
16:01:47 <ehird> Or, maybe,
16:01:51 <ehird> AnMaster:
16:01:53 <ehird> I know!
16:01:54 <AnMaster> ?
16:01:57 <ehird> Well
16:01:59 <ehird> something like
16:02:06 <ehird> "leaq "#sizeof(foo)"..."
16:02:09 <ehird> Or something
16:02:13 <ehird> I was thinking like cpp stringification
16:02:15 <ehird> and stuff
16:02:17 <AnMaster> hm
16:02:31 <ehird> anyone have a ttf of computer modern
16:02:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't think there is a way to get the size of an object with CPP but hm...
16:02:58 <fizzie> Yes, you can't get sizeof() during the preprocessing; I was going to suggest stringizing too.
16:03:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, really? how?
16:03:11 <AnMaster> oh
16:03:14 <AnMaster> "can't"
16:03:20 <AnMaster> misread it as "can"
16:03:34 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know the ranges of sizeof()?
16:03:40 <ehird> Like, it's either 2 or 4 or 8
16:03:42 <ehird> if so then
16:03:46 <ehird> er, I dunno
16:03:47 <ehird> just like
16:03:56 <ehird> #if sizeof(foo)==1; #define foo "1" or whatever, 'cept, you can't do that in cpp
16:03:57 <ehird> so I dunno
16:04:27 <AnMaster> ehird, well it depends on compile time options. It could be 2097152 or 4194304
16:04:37 <ehird> AnMaster: what options
16:04:43 <fizzie> Have you tried the 'n' constraint instead of 'i'? Although I really don't have a clue how they differ.
16:04:50 <ehird> I have an idea
16:04:53 <ehird> AnMaster: what option?
16:05:04 <AnMaster> -DUSE32 -DUSE64 -DARRAY_SIZE_X -DARRAY_SIZE_Y
16:05:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Then, just
16:05:23 <ehird> #ifdef USE_32
16:05:24 <AnMaster> the two latter toggle data type
16:05:27 <AnMaster> err
16:05:29 <AnMaster> two former
16:05:32 <ehird> okay wait
16:05:33 <ehird> AnMaster:
16:05:35 <ehird> do this, for instance
16:05:36 <AnMaster> the two latter toggle array size
16:05:49 <ehird> #ifdef USE32; #define foo #ARRAY_SIZE_X; #endif
16:05:51 <ehird> Or whatever
16:05:56 <AnMaster> hm
16:05:59 <ehird> Then just do "blah " foo " baz"
16:06:08 <ehird> That sort of thing anyway
16:06:15 <ehird> AnMaster: if that needs adding to
16:06:16 <ehird> do
16:06:19 <ehird> Then just do "blah " foo "+44 baz"
16:06:20 <ehird> or whatever
16:06:34 <AnMaster> size is sizeof(datatype) * ARRAY_SIZE_X * ARRAY_SIZE_Y
16:07:01 <ehird> Right, you'll have to do that in parts then
16:07:03 <ehird> #ifdef USE32
16:07:10 <ehird> #define sizeofdatatype "4"
16:07:11 <ehird> #endif
16:07:12 <ehird> and
16:07:16 <ehird> #define foo #ARRAY_SIZE_X
16:07:16 <ehird> then
16:07:27 <ehird> "sdfk " sizeofdatatype "*" foo
16:07:30 <AnMaster> hm...
16:07:32 <ehird> You get the idea
16:07:39 <AnMaster> yeah
16:07:42 * AnMaster considers...
16:07:44 <ehird> http://www.nopaste.com/p/aVqjYoeUbb <- the source to that LaTeX document; please excuse any noobishness
16:07:59 <ehird> Also excuse the wrapping; TeXShop doesn't seem to do that automagically.
16:08:06 <ehird> Er, lack of wrapping, rather.
16:09:22 <fizzie> ehird: Judging from some other latex, you can indeed escape \ with the verbatim mode, so you could write \verb=\chapter= instead of the bulkier \textbackslash{}chapter.
16:10:52 <ehird> Say, does anyone have a HIGHLY ILLEGAL copy of the Univers font? Well, the copy doesn't have to be highly illegal.
16:13:22 <AnMaster> huh wth
16:13:27 <ehird> what
16:13:28 <AnMaster> error: stray ‘#’ in program
16:13:36 * AnMaster goes read C99 spec
16:13:51 <ehird> Ah.
16:13:53 <ehird> Ah.
16:13:56 <ehird> AnMaster: I think you must do
16:13:59 <ehird> foo(x) #x
16:14:03 <AnMaster> oh ok
16:14:06 <ehird> and foo(ARRAY_SIZE_X) would give "ARRAY_SIZE_X".
16:14:09 <ehird> So this is perhaps a slight dead end
16:14:13 <ehird> Hmm hmmm.
16:14:27 <ehird> AnMaster: are the X and Y bounded?
16:14:30 <fizzie> You need the double-macro thing.
16:14:34 <ehird> fizzie: Oh?
16:14:34 <AnMaster> ehird, hm?
16:14:35 <ehird> Do tell
16:14:44 <fizzie> #define foo(x) #x -- #define bar(x) foo(x) -- bar(ARRAY_SIZE)
16:14:45 <AnMaster> double macro?
16:14:51 <fizzie> That will evaluate ARRAY_SIZE before stringizing it.
16:14:52 <ehird> fizzie: Aha.
16:14:55 <ehird> Yes, AnMaster, do that.
16:14:56 <AnMaster> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
16:14:57 <AnMaster> ok
16:15:02 <fizzie> It's very tricky, and I always get it wrong.
16:15:03 <ehird> I love^Whate cpp :-)
16:15:11 <fizzie> But the comp.lang.c faq has some examples, anyway.
16:15:13 <AnMaster> mhm
16:15:37 <ehird> Incidentally, on the topic of I'm Talking About How OS X Is Awesome To Annoy AnMaster (just kidding, AnMaster, kay?): I like how Ctrl-A and Ctrl-E from emacs are available in every text input field.
16:16:06 <AnMaster> #define CPP_SILLY_STRINGIFY(x) # x
16:16:06 <AnMaster> #define CPP_SILLY_EVAL(x) CPP_SILLY_STRINGIFY(x)
16:16:09 <AnMaster> something like that?
16:16:15 <ehird> Yep.
16:16:20 <ehird> Although, well, I'd call it
16:16:37 <ehird> #define CPP_STRINGIFY_ARGH(x) #x
16:16:44 <ehird> #define CPP_STRINGIFY(x) CPP_STRINGIFY_ARGH(x)
16:16:53 <ehird> To more accurately convey the correct emotion.
16:17:22 <fizzie> Sometimes people use the same name with a trailing _, but something like that anyway.
16:17:28 <AnMaster> ehird, ok
16:17:32 <AnMaster> makes sense
16:17:35 <ehird> fizzie: That is evil.
16:17:42 <ehird> It does not convey feminine emotion of human vitality.
16:17:44 <ehird> Or something.
16:17:51 -!- MizardX has quit ("011000 100110 000101 110011 011001 010010 000000 110010").
16:18:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, this even more simplificates it:
16:18:17 <fizzie> http://c-faq.com/ansi/stringize.html
16:18:21 <ehird> #if USE32
16:18:27 <ehird> #define CPP_SIZE 4
16:18:31 <ehird> #elsif USE64
16:18:33 <ehird> #define CPP_SIZE 8
16:18:34 <ehird> #endif
16:18:35 <ehird> then
16:18:54 <ehird> or whatever
16:18:58 <ehird> no need for extra definitions, I mean.
16:18:59 <AnMaster> hm
16:18:59 -!- FireyFly has joined.
16:19:05 <ehird> Just CPP_STRINGIFY* and CPP_SIZE (as an int).
16:19:25 <AnMaster> ehird, that would make it pass 80 columns, which look silly
16:19:33 <ehird> So wrap it.
16:19:40 <ehird> CPP_STRINGIFY(CPP_SIZE) "*"
16:19:43 <ehird> CPP_STRINGIFY(X) "+"
16:19:44 <ehird> etc
16:19:56 <AnMaster> ehird, looks silly to have multiline inline asm expand to single line asm -_-
16:20:02 <ehird> No. It really doesn't.
16:20:07 <ehird> These are the only times you use those stringifications, so assigning them a name is ridiculous.
16:21:39 <AnMaster> hm
16:26:09 <ehird> http://thanksants.com/ <- <3
16:27:47 <oklofok> :D
16:42:13 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:47:28 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly.
16:53:22 <AnMaster> ehird, uh what?
16:53:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Look Around You reference
16:53:43 <ehird> oh
16:53:45 <ehird> enable javascript
16:54:04 <AnMaster> ehird, I did enable javascript
16:54:07 <AnMaster> and I still don't get it
16:54:09 <ehird> Ah.
16:54:13 <ehird> Well, it's a Look Around You reference.
16:54:22 * AnMaster googles
16:54:37 <Slereah_> Get some gary gum
16:54:52 <ehird> It's garry
16:55:08 <Slereah_> I hate you :(
17:00:01 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:01:11 <ehird> hi ais523
17:01:19 <ais523> hi ehird
17:01:36 <ehird> can i have my note credits now? :P
17:01:52 <ais523> ehird: wrong channel, and let me read email first to figure out what you're talking about
17:01:53 <AnMaster> hello ais523.
17:01:56 <ais523> hi AnMaster
17:02:08 <ehird> 1) there is no right channel that I am currently present in; I was just passing on a one-line note
17:02:13 <ehird> 2) your cron job fired
17:02:18 <ehird> although murphy beat you to it
17:02:45 <ehird> ais523: also, goethe was in _another_ scam secrecy contract with another group of players, plotting the same scam.
17:02:47 <ehird> as far as I can tell
17:02:56 <ehird> so if you entered an agreement with him, he tricked you.
17:03:00 <ais523> I didn't
17:03:05 <ehird> ah
17:03:08 <ehird> i read wrong then
17:03:12 <ais523> but again, wrong channel, your refusal to join the right channel does not make this the right channel
17:03:27 <ehird> nobody else is talking, so.
17:03:33 <ehird> it was just a little note
17:06:51 * AnMaster wonders why the hell gcc generated this code:
17:06:53 <AnMaster> sub $0xffffffffffffff80,%rax
17:07:04 <AnMaster> what is wrong with adding a bit instead?
17:07:15 <ehird> less omg optimized
17:07:16 <ehird> claerl
17:07:17 <ehird> y
17:07:26 <ehird> AnMaster: did the stringification work out?
17:07:30 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it did
17:07:35 <ehird> hoorah
17:11:06 <AnMaster> ais523, any idea about that sub?
17:11:19 <AnMaster> it was in a loop gcc generated:
17:11:24 <AnMaster> sub $0xffffffffffffff80,%rax
17:11:25 <AnMaster> cmp $0xa42620,%rax
17:11:29 <ais523> AnMaster: it might change the processor flags differently
17:11:29 <AnMaster> jne 0x41c1f0
17:11:31 <ais523> to addition
17:11:37 <AnMaster> ais523, hm...
17:11:40 <ais523> there are lots of that sort of thing in asm
17:11:59 <ais523> or it may be subtracting %rax /from/ that large number, rather than subtracting the large number from %rax
17:12:16 <AnMaster> ais523, rax is a pointer to an array
17:12:38 -!- Hiato has joined.
17:12:40 <AnMaster> also it only uses sub if it is unrolling the loop. It uses add otherwise
17:12:53 <AnMaster> like: add $0x10,%rax
17:13:12 <AnMaster> yes the sub jump is larger, but that is because it was unrolled
17:16:20 -!- MizardX has joined.
17:26:48 * ehird does some more logics in haskell typeth system
17:26:53 <ehird> hmm, I forgot, I'm a ghost
17:26:56 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehirdghost.
17:26:58 <ehirdghost> whooooooo
17:27:14 <ehirdghost> Ahah, now I recommandeth my speakings of the ghostular enhanced communicatoungh.
17:29:10 <Asztal_> you were supposed to wait until Easter to resurrect :(
17:29:32 <ehirdghost> yeah, yeah, sorry, wait, I'll remove that previous shit from the timestream
17:29:39 <ehirdghost> done, if you still see it you're hallucinamating
17:36:47 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, did you finish your bef93 in qbasic?
17:37:12 <ehirdghost> no, it was too trivial that I fell asleep
17:37:24 <ehirdghost> that was before I died...
17:37:28 <ehirdghost> good times, good times
17:38:00 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, why not write a befunge93 in SQL (probably with some procedural extensions)
17:38:14 <ehirdghost> I ask you s/not //
17:38:30 <ais523> is ehirdghost writing befunge in SQL?
17:38:37 <ehirdghost> No.
17:38:41 <ais523> if so, which extensions? SQL isn't actually Turing-complete without extensions
17:38:43 <AnMaster> ais523, no it was a suggestion for something to do
17:38:44 <ehirdghost> AnMaster wants me to, I don't see why it's interesting.
17:38:46 <ais523> but then, neither is befunge-93
17:39:01 <AnMaster> ais523, I would suggest Pg/SQL
17:39:15 <AnMaster> (or whatever it is called)
17:39:42 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, no I didn't "want you to", just a suggestion for something to do
17:39:45 <AnMaster> you seemed bored.
17:40:01 <ehirdghost> dodecahedron
17:40:06 <ehirdghost> dodecahedronasaurus
17:40:14 <fizzie> PL/pgSQL, if you mean the PostgreSQL thing.
17:40:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah yes indeed
17:40:26 <AnMaster> didn't remember the name
17:40:29 <fizzie> Or just PL/SQL for the Oracle thing.
17:41:54 <fizzie> Google Image Search doesn't find any dodecahedronasaurii. :/
17:42:17 <Slereah_> Try "dodecadicks"
17:42:41 <Slereah_> http://www.google.com/search?q=dodecadicks&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:fr:official&client=firefox-a
17:42:48 <Slereah_> What do you know, it actually exists!
17:42:58 <AnMaster> hm
17:43:12 <AnMaster> how many bits is needed to represent a 2 MB address space?
17:43:18 <ais523> 31
17:43:23 <ais523> oh, MB?
17:43:24 <ais523> 21
17:43:28 <AnMaster> ah
17:44:23 <AnMaster> ais523, sure it isn't 20?
17:44:26 <fizzie> Since 2^10 is a kilobyte, 2^20 is a megabyte and 2^30 is a gigabyte.
17:44:32 <AnMaster> hm
17:44:33 <ehirdghost> http://filebin.ca/jrtvbo/first-test.pdf <- Relinking this since everyone must see it.
17:44:34 <ais523> AnMaster: 1 MiB is 20
17:44:37 <ais523> because 1 KiB is 10
17:44:37 <AnMaster> ah
17:44:42 <ais523> 2 MiB is therefore 21
17:44:48 <ais523> and 2 MB is slightly smaller, therefore still 21
17:44:48 * AnMaster wonders what he is miscalculating then
17:45:22 <AnMaster> wait, I see that I made an error, but why is it only off by half...
17:45:23 <Asztal_> ehirdghost: but you never linked it before... we were just hallucinamating that, right?
17:45:40 <fizzie> Also there's the whole A20 line stuff in the legacy-x86 world.
17:45:40 <AnMaster> I didn't calculated in 16 bit numbers...
17:45:43 <ehirdghost> Asztal_: Do not question me.
17:45:43 <AnMaster> calculate*
17:46:03 <AnMaster> Lets see. How many bits do you need to represent 1024*512 ?
17:46:24 <fizzie> 10+9.
17:46:51 <fizzie> If you mean "represent all numbers in the range [0, 1024*512-1]".
17:47:34 <fizzie> Or "represent 1024*512 different entities", more generically.
17:47:55 <AnMaster> well the latter
17:48:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm trying to work out how I would do bit interleaving for using a z-order space filling curve to index the static funge space
17:48:41 <AnMaster> and I just can't get it straight
17:49:52 <AnMaster> ais523, btw since you know gcc quite well. How do you make gcc expand asm("leaq %[size]+%[var],%%rdx" : [var] "=m"(myvar) : [size] "i"(sizeof(myvar)) : "rdx"); to "leaq 2097152+myvar(%rip),%rdx" rather than "leaq $2097152+myvar(%rip),%rdx"
17:50:01 <ehirdghost> AnMaster: wtf
17:50:03 <ehirdghost> we just told you how
17:50:06 <AnMaster> for now I worked around the issue with some ugly macros
17:50:07 <ehirdghost> we spent ages explaining it with cpp
17:50:16 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, yes but I was wondering "is there no better solution"
17:50:21 <ehirdghost> it's not a bad solution
17:50:26 <ehirdghost> it's just stringifying some expressions
17:50:29 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, it is an ugly one
17:50:33 <ehirdghost> C is ugly
17:50:37 <AnMaster> well yes
17:52:58 <ehirdghost> heh, it's funny how well suited haskell is to logic in the type system
17:53:45 <fizzie> Here's a funny bit of x86 trivia: the A20 gate (which controls whether the A20 line is enabled or not; if it's not enabled, the 21th bit in memory addresses is forced to be 0, wrapping the [1MB,2MB) range on top of [0,1MB) and same for 3-4, 5-6 etc.) used to be connected to the *keyboard controller*.
17:54:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh...
17:54:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, keyboard DMA?
17:55:31 <fizzie> It's just that their keyboard controller had a spare I/O pin they could use. The keyboard controller can also reset the CPU.
18:00:00 <AnMaster> mhm
18:00:19 <AnMaster> so I need to bit interleave a 9 bit and a 10 bit integers in the fastest way possible...
18:00:28 * AnMaster looks at the bithacks page fizzie linked
18:01:18 <ehirdghost> [0,1) should be valid haskell pintax
18:01:22 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:01:39 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, pintax?
18:02:00 <ehirdghost> Syntax but with safety pins and income tax.
18:02:15 <AnMaster> heh
18:02:30 <Judofyr> ehirdghost: still a ghost?
18:02:33 <AnMaster> I always thought the [) notation looks silly
18:02:36 * ehirdghost walks right through Judofyr
18:02:40 <ehirdghost> Any questions?
18:03:16 <ehirdghost> AnMaster: The correct range semantics for (N..M) is including N and excluding M, anyway. See: Djikstra. They compose better.
18:03:33 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, yes I know what it is for
18:03:33 <ehirdghost> And (0..N) gets you N items; fits in with array-type stuff
18:03:50 <ehirdghost> So [X,Y) is actually useless as there's only One True Solution :P
18:04:07 <ehirdghost> Unfortunately, haskell includes M.
18:04:09 <ehirdghost> in the range
18:04:09 <AnMaster> I just thinks it looks silly with [X,Y) Typographically silly I mean
18:04:15 <ehirdghost> Mm.
18:04:31 <AnMaster> s/thinks/think/
18:04:43 -!- Deewiant has joined.
18:06:39 -!- ineiros has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:08:36 <ehirdghost> Sq, Q prqpqsq thqt qll vqwqls qrq rqplqcqd by "q". (So, I propose that all vowels are replaced by q.)
18:08:53 <ehirdghost> (It actually works fine for everything but i, pretty much. So let's try it.)
18:11:47 -!- ineiros has joined.
18:12:52 <ehirdghost> Nq?
18:13:06 -!- Mony has joined.
18:13:33 <Mony> plop
18:13:37 <ais523> hi Mony
18:13:43 <ehirdghost> Yqq mqqn plqp.
18:14:05 <Mony> yeah, true
18:14:29 <ehirdghost> Qxqctly.
18:16:09 <ehirdghost> qqs523: Wqll yqq jqqn my pqlgrqmqgq frqm vqwqls?
18:16:55 <ais523> no
18:17:00 <ehirdghost> :(
18:18:09 <Asztal_> Tqlkqng wqthqqt vqwqls qs sq pqssq́.
18:18:26 <ehirdghost> Sq's yqqr fqcq.
18:25:17 <AnMaster> wow you can do fast bit interleaving with SSSE3. But not with SSE3
18:25:22 <AnMaster> so useless to me
18:25:33 <ais523> what, you mean the intercal operation?
18:25:53 <AnMaster> ais523, almost. I'm talking about a space filling Morton curve here.
18:25:57 <ais523> oh
18:26:05 <AnMaster> ais523, which can be done with bit interleaving
18:26:09 <AnMaster> so yes kind of
18:28:08 <AnMaster> ais523, hm a hillbert curve would provide better locality of reference than. Wonder how you can calculate it.
18:28:12 <AnMaster> Might be worth comparing
18:28:32 <ais523> AnMaster: err... you're using space-filling curves for the memory of your Befunge interp to avoid cache misses?
18:28:36 <ehirdghost> Yes.
18:28:40 <AnMaster> ais523, that is the plan yes
18:28:43 <ais523> are you /sure/ that doesn't waste more time calculating than it does reading from cache?
18:28:51 <fizzie> Yes, and it's pretty much exactly the intercal mingle.
18:28:55 <AnMaster> ais523, it is possible. That is why I want to profile
18:29:17 <AnMaster> I can't be sure if I haven't looked at it at all
18:29:48 <ehirdghost> if I jump over a bridge, will I die? I can't be sure if I haven't tried it at all
18:29:50 <AnMaster> ais523, so I can't say I'm sure until I even tested with space filling curves.
18:29:56 <fizzie> ais523: I'm repeating myself a bit here, but:
18:29:56 <fizzie> [2009-03-15 19:59:38] < fizzie> Notably, calculating the z-order coordinate from x, y is just a single application of the INTERCAL mingle operator.
18:29:58 <fizzie> [2009-03-15 19:59:54] < fizzie> Of course your silly C might lack the always-useful $ operator.
18:32:11 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway it is quite possible this could differ a lot between different CPUs, if you have a very small cache you could possibly gain from it.
18:32:20 <AnMaster> and the reverse
18:32:27 <ais523> yes
18:32:28 <AnMaster> anyway it is worth trying
18:32:45 <AnMaster> ais523, and my sempron has a 128 kb L2 cache, and no L3 cache
18:33:02 <ehirdghost> 128kb? o_O
18:33:10 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, yes it is very small.
18:33:32 <AnMaster> I have a Pentium 3 with twice as big L2 cache
18:33:34 <ehirdghost> Why dqn't yqq mqcrq-qptqmqsq qn q dqcqnt mqchqnq?!
18:33:49 <AnMaster> what?
18:34:01 * ehirdghost rqllqyqs.
18:34:12 <ehirdghost> Asztal_: Yqq trqnslqtq, mmkqy?
18:34:14 <AnMaster> tell me when you decide to make sense.
18:34:47 <Asztal_> Why don't you micro-optimise on a decent machine‽
18:34:50 <fizzie> Incidentally, are you doing "thqs q thqng" manually or automagically?
18:34:55 <AnMaster> because I don't have one?
18:35:04 <ehirdghost> Asztal_: Thqnks.
18:35:25 <AnMaster> maybe ehirdghost will provide the money?
18:35:27 <Asztal_> you mean Qsztql_, or are nicknames excluded?
18:35:42 <ehirdghost> fizzie: Mqnqqlly, bqt nqw I'm nqt: tr qqqqq qqqqq
18:35:57 <ehirdghost> Asztal_: /nqck Qsztql_ qnd jqqn qqr qrdqr.
18:36:04 -!- ehirdghost has changed nick to qhqrdghqst.
18:36:16 <AnMaster> -_-
18:36:32 <fizzie> The-artist-formerly-known-as-ehirdghost: your new name looks like a MMX opcode.
18:36:36 <qhqrdghqst> Hmm, tr qqqq q wqrks tqq. Nqcq.
18:36:40 <qhqrdghqst> fizzie: Qt qs.
18:36:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, :DDD
18:36:52 <qhqrdghqst> Sq qnywqy.
18:37:49 <qhqrdghqst> I wandar haw at gaas wath a anstaad af q. I wender hew et gees weth e ensteed ef q. I wondor how ot goos woth o onstood of q.
18:37:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, my favourite MMX opcode is CVTTPD2PI
18:38:13 <AnMaster> wait that one is SSE I think
18:38:16 <AnMaster> anyway I like it
18:38:36 <qhqrdghqst> I wndr hw t gs wth nstd f q.
18:38:38 <AnMaster> it is SSE but operates on mmx registers, instead of xmm registers
18:39:39 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, why not replace non-vowels instead of vowels?
18:39:49 <qhqrdghqst> Qn Q-spqqk, CQBQL = CQBQL. Cqqncqdqncq?
18:39:58 <AnMaster> err
18:40:02 <qhqrdghqst> QnMqstqr: Tq mqrq qccqrqtqly glqqk mqqnqng frqm cqntqxt.
18:40:20 <AnMaster> I suggest all consonants -> i
18:40:32 <AnMaster> no idea if it will work out well
18:41:08 <qhqrdghqst> ieiiiii, ieiiiii oie iio iiiee
18:41:14 <AnMaster> ah not very well
18:41:20 <AnMaster> sounds ghostly though
18:41:27 <AnMaster> CQBQL = CQBQL <-- was that COBOL = C.B.L?
18:41:56 <Asztal_> I read it as COBOL = CABAL
18:42:00 <qhqrdghqst> Cqmmqn Qrqqntqd Bqsqnqss Lqngqqgq = Thqrq Qs Nq Cqbql
18:42:05 <AnMaster> Asztal, oh that could work
18:42:10 <AnMaster> ah
18:42:17 <qhqrdghqst> Qsztql gqts q cqqkqq.
18:42:19 <AnMaster> CYBYL looked silly
18:42:32 <AnMaster> Qsztql <-- looks like a monster in nethack?
18:42:40 <AnMaster> some A iirc
18:42:44 <AnMaster> forgot the name for it
18:42:50 <AnMaster> something like that anyway
18:43:01 <qhqrdghqst> Hqy, fqrst pqrsqn thqt mqkqs q scrqpt thqt grqps /qsr/shqrq/dqct/wqrds tq qdd thq vqwqls bqck qn gqts q cqqkqq.
18:43:27 <AnMaster> cqqkqq?
18:43:43 <AnMaster> also I'm too lazy to make such a script
18:43:59 <qhqrdghqst> Why nqt grqp /qsr/shqrq/dqct/wqrds tq fqnd qqt whqt thqt wqrd cqqld bq? Jqst s/q/./ wqqld wqrk fqr qnq wqrd.
18:44:24 <AnMaster> well true. But I think it was cookie now
18:44:49 <qhqrdghqst> Yqq gqt q cqqkqq.
18:45:20 <fizzie> AnMaster: I'm not quite sure what "Qsztql" could refer to. Quetzalcoatl is the lawful archeologist god, though.
18:45:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, you tend to run into them when you are high level and near the top of the dungeon... Maybe it was Quetzalcoatl
18:46:14 <fizzie> But that's a god, not a monster.
18:46:34 <fizzie> There's an A called couatl, maybe that.
18:47:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, in ASCII it is A, in QT mode it is some brown/pink blurry tile that looks vaguely like a brown snake with pink wings
18:47:10 <AnMaster> iirc
18:47:45 <fizzie> Quetzalcoatl is the feathered snake. And couatl is a D&D monster that refers to that, and has the A symbol. So it's probably that.
18:48:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about "couatl" <Rodney> a[4]: Monster: 'A' angelic beings: couatl, Aleax, Angel, ki-rin, Archon
18:48:17 <fizzie> "There's an A called couatl, maybe that."
18:48:20 <oklofok> interesting, changing vowels to q's isn't really even noticeable for short words, but i have no idea what ieiiiii, ieiiiii oie iio iiiee is
18:48:22 <AnMaster> oh yes just saw that
18:48:23 <fizzie> That *is* what I'm talking about.
18:48:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, I did /msg #esoteric from in the privmsg with Rodney
18:48:41 <AnMaster> so I didn't see that
18:49:24 <qhqrdghqst> Hmm. My scrqpt fqqls qn yqq gqt q cqqkqq, fqr thqrq qrq mqny pqssqbqlqtqqs.
18:49:43 <fizzie> Oh. And incidentally, why does irssi prefix a + or - to all incoming messages now that I have an irssi-proxy thing going on?
18:49:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, still I think CVTTPD2PI is the MMX/SSE instruction with the nicest name
18:49:55 <AnMaster> don't you agree?
18:50:02 <qhqrdghqst> fizzie: Ah, right.
18:50:03 <qhqrdghqst> Is it miau?
18:50:07 <oklofok> qhqrdghqst: well why not use a markov chain, don't you just love those?
18:50:15 <qhqrdghqst> fizzie: http://miau.sourceforge.net/faq.html
18:50:16 <qhqrdghqst> oklofok: :D
18:50:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, freenode adds +/- if you request it when you connect
18:50:48 <qhqrdghqst> Yes, and miau does.
18:50:50 <qhqrdghqst> Thus, see http://miau.sourceforge.net/faq.html.
18:50:52 <AnMaster> it means identified to nickserv or not
18:50:53 <qhqrdghqst> I haven't seen anything else do i
18:50:54 <qhqrdghqst> t
18:51:10 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, xchat enables it if available and uses it
18:51:26 <fizzie> Oh. Heh, yes, I did connect with xchat to the irssi-proxy.
18:51:32 <fizzie> Is it a toggleable setting somewhere?
18:51:54 <qhqrdghqst> what is the proxy
18:51:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes, by reconnecting. You could also make the proxy filter this so the client never sees that the server supports it
18:52:05 <ais523> I made another Enigma level, by the way, just for fun; it's pretty easy
18:52:09 <qhqrdghqst> ais523: oo
18:52:10 <ais523> and again not the sort AnMaster likes
18:52:12 <AnMaster> ais523, what type?
18:52:14 <AnMaster> oh ok
18:52:17 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a memory level, mostly
18:52:21 <ais523> and a bit of forward planning
18:52:27 <AnMaster> ais523, so what is your opinion on CVTTPD2PI?
18:52:40 <ais523> AnMaster: I generally don't have opinions on particular asm opcodes I don't know much about
18:52:48 <AnMaster> the name I mean!
18:52:54 <fizzie> ehird: irssi-proxy's a module of sorts for irssi which makes it act a bit like a bouncer. I wanted to try a non-monospaced font in IRC, but that's not very viable in a terminal.
18:52:59 <ais523> looks typical for bloated x86 asm opcodes
18:53:01 <AnMaster> "Convert Packed Single-Precision Floating-Point to Packed Doubleword Integers, Truncated"
18:53:04 <AnMaster> is what it means
18:53:19 <AnMaster> according to the AMD reference docs
18:53:25 <qhqrdghqst> fizzie: ah.
18:53:30 <qhqrdghqst> Why not just use miau if you want a bouncer? :P
18:53:46 <AnMaster> CVTTPS2PI mmx, xmm/mem64
18:53:53 <fizzie> Because I already had irssi running, and didn't want to disconnect for this experiment.
18:54:14 <qhqrdghqst> Sounds like a very exciting experiment.
18:54:16 <ais523> http://filebin.ca/ufepe/ais52304_1.xml
18:54:18 <qhqrdghqst> Welcome to 2000 :P
18:54:33 <fizzie> I'm not sure I like it here in 2000.
18:54:56 <qhqrdghqst> Wimp
18:55:25 <qhqrdghqst> ais523: enigma time
18:55:36 <fizzie> AnMaster: Anyway, did you say I can tell this X-Chat to not enable that identify-msg thing? I'm not sure I want to do any filtering in irssi-proxy.
18:56:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, no
18:56:17 <AnMaster> I suggested you would filter this in the bouncer
18:56:26 <AnMaster> so xchat would never see that it was enabled
18:56:33 <AnMaster> also filter any requests to enable it
18:56:34 <fizzie> About instructions, I think I like the name of PUNPCKHBW. It's got, you know, punch.
18:56:57 <AnMaster> Unpack and Interleave High Bytes...
18:57:00 <AnMaster> interesting
18:57:21 <qhqrdghqst> http://khjeron.de/index.php?ELEMENT=300 wat
18:57:23 <fizzie> Aw. I'm not quite sure how to do it. Irssi-proxy is not a very configurable bouncer, it's rather rudimentary.
18:57:27 <AnMaster> PUNPCKHQDQ just sounds lame
18:57:51 <qhqrdghqst> fizzie: just greenify
18:57:54 <qhqrdghqst> also, xchat sux :|
18:58:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, xchat is not a very configurable client, it is rather advanced but single minded. That is if you don't like the defaults you don't have a lot of options to change it
18:58:10 <ais523> qhqrdghqst: how are you getting on with my level?
18:58:15 <qhqrdghqst> Awfully.
18:58:26 <ais523> I'm wondering if I should make it harder, probably not if you're finding it hard
18:58:30 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, that should be Qwfqllq
18:58:41 <fizzie> Yes, it seems that way. But this xchat is several magnitudes better than I remember it being back in, you know, 2000 or so.
18:58:46 <qhqrdghqst> ais523: I suck at enigma.
18:58:50 <ais523> I'm almost convinced oklofok would do it first time and think "that was boring", but then he's oklofok
18:59:05 <oklofok> my back hurts, can't really concentrate
18:59:10 <qhqrdghqst> AnMaster: I will comply if and only if fizzie and you and ais523 start filtering all messages through (tr aeiou q | tr AEIOU Q).
18:59:11 <qhqrdghqst> Deal?
18:59:21 <qhqrdghqst> Just for a bit. :P
18:59:24 <AnMaster> comply with what?
18:59:36 <oklofok> actually been working on this puzzle for ages now, even though i solved it pretty fast last night (my points weren't registered so i had to do it again)
18:59:38 <qhqrdghqst> = continue qing.
18:59:39 <fizzie> I'm not sure what would be a nice graphical IRC client. Colloquy sure seems nice-looking, but it's just OS X.
18:59:48 <ais523> oklofok: which puzzle?
18:59:49 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, nah, you are free to stop it
18:59:57 <oklofok> 3d logic 2: stronghold of sage
18:59:57 <qhqrdghqst> fizzie: colloquy is pretty awful; LimeChat is nice.
19:00:08 <qhqrdghqst> Colloquy is buggy and crashy and underfeatured
19:00:27 <qhqrdghqst> but, err, graphical IRC, hm.
19:00:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is an xchat fork called conspire. Haven't tried it. May be worth checking it out
19:00:30 <qhqrdghqst> Dunno.
19:00:56 <oklofok> you have a grid on three faces of a cube, and you need to connect dots of same color.
19:01:07 <fizzie> I'm going strictly based on screenshots-shown-on-the-software's-web-site here. LimeChat seems like an OS X thing too. Of course one would assume that anything nice-looking is.
19:01:27 <qhqrdghqst> LimeChat is OS X only, yes.
19:01:41 <oklofok> started playing kongregate since all the cool kids seem to be doing it
19:01:54 <qhqrdghqst> fizzie: Just use plan9.
19:01:59 <qhqrdghqst> Problem solved.
19:03:39 <AnMaster> you can use plan9 userspace on Linux btw
19:03:46 <AnMaster> ported tools
19:03:48 <qhqrdghqst> yes
19:03:50 <qhqrdghqst> not the same
19:03:56 <AnMaster> that's true
19:03:58 <qhqrdghqst> you don't get any of the device magic that actually makes it worthwhile
19:03:59 <qhqrdghqst> or /proc
19:04:08 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, but not everyone can switch to plan9
19:04:12 <qhqrdghqst> sure they can. :P
19:04:28 <qhqrdghqst> oklofok: I played the original version of that game
19:04:36 <AnMaster> well iirc fizzie worked on some workstation owned by the university
19:04:38 <AnMaster> so that could be hard
19:04:47 <ais523> qhqrdghqst: I just got a time of 1:53 on that level, btw, that's faster than the record written in the file
19:04:52 <qhqrdghqst> ais523: cool
19:05:04 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, also I don't remember how the /proc of plan9 was but Linux have a /proc. Maybe different.
19:05:15 <qhqrdghqst> yes
19:05:18 <qhqrdghqst> plan9's is far more extensiv e
19:05:20 <fizzie> Yes, well, I'm currently at home; I think I'll stick to rxvt-unicode and irssi for chatting at work.
19:05:22 <AnMaster> anyway: http://swtch.com/plan9port/
19:05:40 <AnMaster> OS X too
19:05:46 <oklofok> qhqrdghqst: harder, easier, or you didn't pass it?
19:05:54 <qhqrdghqst> AnMaster: I already have it.
19:05:59 <oklofok> wait
19:06:00 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, ok :)
19:06:01 <qhqrdghqst> oklofok: dunnos
19:06:04 <qhqrdghqst> it had no stupid grass shit
19:06:06 <oklofok> how could you know whether it's harder or easier
19:06:07 <oklofok> :D
19:06:17 <oklofok> (that was a question, answer)
19:06:20 <ais523> what is kongregate?
19:06:26 <ais523> I can guess it's a KDE program from the spelling
19:06:28 <qhqrdghqst> a site with flash games
19:06:31 <ais523> but don't konw anything beyond that
19:06:31 <oklofok> basically you get points out of playing flash games.
19:06:35 <qhqrdghqst> yeah.
19:07:13 * ais523 wonders if Three Times Through is always possible
19:07:16 <AnMaster> ais523, this one ends in 04? I saw 01 too. What about 02 and 03
19:07:17 <ais523> I suspect it is, but haven't proved it
19:07:19 <AnMaster> never saw them
19:07:24 <ais523> AnMaster: well, no
19:07:27 <ais523> they aren't finished yet
19:07:28 <AnMaster> ah
19:07:33 <ais523> are you having a go at it?
19:07:34 <AnMaster> ais523, any in the style I like?
19:07:39 <ais523> well, not yet
19:07:42 <oklofok> more incentive to actually finish games, and try all kinds of stuff out; which of course is good only if you consider flash games educational, which i do
19:07:59 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't know if I mentioned it. But I rather like that level "robin's wood"
19:08:01 <ais523> _02 and _03 are almost finished, they just need AIs
19:08:03 <AnMaster> forgot what pack
19:08:10 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't, it just looks big and tiresome
19:08:18 <AnMaster> ok
19:08:51 <qhqrdghqst> oklofok: http://www.kongregate.com/games/AlexMatveev/3d-logic
19:08:52 <qhqrdghqst> 3d logic wun
19:10:04 <AnMaster> ais523, is there anything in your last level preventing the first two stones matching each other?
19:10:14 <ais523> AnMaster: no, it's completely random the arrangement
19:10:18 <ais523> normally you get a mix of luck
19:10:25 -!- Hiato1 has joined.
19:10:27 <ais523> because there are so many oxyds to place
19:12:08 <AnMaster> ugh that level is irritating
19:12:12 <qhqrdghqst> oklofok: i can't beat original level 7 <.<
19:13:36 <qhqrdghqst> wait I just did.
19:14:27 <AnMaster> ais523, I liked "floppy floors" too
19:14:37 <AnMaster> on easy, never tried it on hard
19:14:53 <ais523> AnMaster: what, my level?
19:14:54 <AnMaster> however it was another level I was looking for
19:14:58 <AnMaster> ais523, ?
19:15:00 <oklofok> i did the first 12 levels in about 2 minutes, then made a mistake, and closed it
19:15:16 <AnMaster> ais523, in engima 1.0 new
19:15:21 <oklofok> (i mean i don't actually want to play atm)
19:15:32 <ais523> AnMaster: oh, I was referring to the one I just pasted
19:15:50 <ais523> and nothing's forcing oklofok to play, especially as the level I just pasted is likely far too easy for em
19:15:53 <AnMaster> I just mentioned some levels I liked
19:16:11 <oklofok> ais523: are you trying to force me to try it :P
19:16:17 <ais523> no, there wouldn't be any point
19:16:20 <AnMaster> ais523, there was some level that was a "who did it" iirc
19:16:24 <AnMaster> that was rather interesting
19:16:42 <ais523> AnMaster: I've done that one, it isn't really because it's just elimination and luck
19:16:57 <AnMaster> cluenigma
19:16:59 <AnMaster> hm
19:17:25 <AnMaster> ais523, there was one with lots of hidden tools. Split up in four screens
19:17:32 <ais523> I was doing that one recently
19:17:38 <AnMaster> ais523, don't remember name
19:17:44 <AnMaster> I remember first room was very white
19:17:45 <ais523> I think I tried twice and failed
19:17:51 <AnMaster> I like that one
19:17:57 <AnMaster> just don't remember where or name
19:18:09 <ais523> both times because coffee wasn't implemented, so getting the last pair of oxyds depends entirely on luck and fast mouse movement, you need both
19:18:16 <ais523> and I was unlucky and not fast enough anyway both times
19:18:25 <oklofok> hmm, i should probably implement some coffee
19:18:40 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed
19:18:52 <AnMaster> ais523, do you remember what level pack?
19:19:19 * ais523 looks
19:19:26 <ais523> it won't be one of the enigma ones because it had coffee in
19:19:42 <AnMaster> ais523, also there are some levels in "enigma 0.92" called "Pentimino", any clue what they are about?
19:19:48 <ais523> yep
19:19:51 <qhqrdghqst> what kind of coffee are we talking
19:19:51 <AnMaster> oh?
19:19:54 <ais523> they're about pentominos, pretty obviously
19:19:57 <ais523> qhqrdghqst: the item in Enigma
19:20:03 <ais523> that does nothing because they haven't programmed it yet
19:20:04 <AnMaster> ais523, and what the *** is that?
19:20:17 <ais523> AnMaster: look it up on Wikipedia or Google or somewhere
19:20:23 <AnMaster> mhm
19:20:29 <ais523> Tetris shapes are tetrominoes, pentominoes are like that but with one more square
19:20:32 <qhqrdghqst> ais523: what's it meant to do.
19:20:39 <qhqrdghqst> 18:20 AnMaster: ais523, and what the *** is that? <-- what the ass?
19:20:42 <AnMaster> found it. "tool time" in 0.92 new
19:20:55 <ais523> qhqrdghqst: it's described vaguely as "pause the game"
19:20:58 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, "hel"
19:20:59 <ais523> in the docs
19:21:16 <ais523> but from looking at the levels that use it, I suspect it multiplies durations by infinity
19:21:21 <ais523> so your umbrellas last forever, etc
19:21:33 <ais523> maybe it's limited-duration itself, or only when it's the first item on your list, or something, though
19:22:01 <oklofok> AnMaster: it's actually "heel"
19:22:08 <qhqrdghqst> wow, Slalom Skiing in 0.92-1 is hard (#17)
19:22:08 <AnMaster> heh
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19:23:54 <ais523> qhqrdghqst: yep, that one took me quite a while
19:23:58 <ais523> there's a trick to it, though
19:24:23 <ais523> even better, it's a trick you can work out entirely on visible information, it's not like there's a hidden thing you have to find or something like that
19:24:49 <ais523> <Enigma Wiki> In Oxyd®, you could take a break with this item. During the break, you could analyse the whole level stresslessly. In Enigma, the cup does not have any special properties yet.
19:24:53 <ais523> the definition of the coffee
19:25:14 <AnMaster> I managed the slalom one
19:25:37 <AnMaster> on both easy and hard
19:25:50 <ais523> I did it on hard, and doing it on easy can be done the same way as doing it on hard
19:25:53 <AnMaster> below par for easy
19:26:05 <AnMaster> 2 seconds above par for hard
19:26:33 <qhqrdghqst> #58 light barriers, how do you get that block?!
19:26:47 <AnMaster> I solved it, above par
19:27:04 <qhqrdghqst> AnMaster: did you do salom, above par, on hard, you solved it?
19:27:06 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, also the mirrors duh
19:27:12 <ais523> qhqrdghqst: 58 in which pack?
19:27:15 <qhqrdghqst> if so, did you solve slalmon, on hard, above par?
19:27:18 <qhqrdghqst> ais523: 0.92-1
19:27:25 <qhqrdghqst> oh wait
19:27:27 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, I solved it on both, on easy below par, on hard above par
19:27:28 <qhqrdghqst> you can move the lasers
19:27:31 <AnMaster> as I said
19:27:38 <qhqrdghqst> AnMaster: I do not like them, Sam I am
19:27:46 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, what?
19:27:51 <qhqrdghqst> YOU HAVE NO CULTURE>
19:28:02 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, what the hell are you referring to
19:28:05 <qhqrdghqst> >__________<
19:28:25 <ais523> AnMaster: a Dr. Seuss book
19:28:31 <ais523> they're books of nonsense intended for children
19:28:31 <fizzie> ehird: Your culture is not universal, you know. Although I've heard enough by cultural osmosis to understand that much.
19:28:37 <ais523> and are great fun to read out loud
19:28:39 * AnMaster googles
19:28:45 <qhqrdghqst> I'd say Green Eggs and Ham is fairly universal
19:28:54 <oklofok> i've heard that thing, don't know what it's about tho
19:28:56 <AnMaster> I did google "sam" but that returned Seattle Art Museum
19:28:57 <AnMaster> and such
19:28:58 <oklofok> that sam i am thing
19:29:01 <lament> anything in English is universal
19:29:05 <ais523> AnMaster: google "green eggs and ham"
19:29:06 <qhqrdghqst> lament: :P
19:29:08 <ais523> with the quotes
19:29:09 <oklofok> actually i think it was just the name of an episode of some series
19:29:10 <AnMaster> ais523, ...?
19:29:13 <fizzie> Incidentally, we watched some sort of green-eggs-and-ham cartoonification just the-day-before-yesterday.
19:29:20 <ais523> "I do not like green eggs and ham. I do not like them, Sam-I-Am."
19:29:40 <AnMaster> what about "automaton magic"
19:29:48 <qhqrdghqst> err
19:29:49 <qhqrdghqst> what about it.
19:29:54 <AnMaster> solved it below par here. and just two seconds above world record
19:30:11 <AnMaster> so 29 seconds instead of 27
19:30:20 <AnMaster> I like that level
19:30:25 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdR0LXOiEB8 I think was the clip.
19:30:31 <AnMaster> engima 0.92-1 #83
19:33:39 <qhqrdghqst> A dark house on them am do I or there and eat if rain they anywhere eggs in Sam train are fox let asy tree be goat like see try boat good may so will box green me thank with car ham mouse that would could here not the you.
19:33:45 <qhqrdghqst> s/asy/say/
19:33:48 <qhqrdghqst> The most zen sentence ever.
19:34:30 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, did you make that up now?
19:34:41 <qhqrdghqst> No, it's the complete set of words used in Green Eggs and Ham.
19:34:46 <qhqrdghqst> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Eggs_and_Ham#Lexicon
19:34:57 <qhqrdghqst> All 50 of them, of which 49 are monosyllabic.
19:35:11 <AnMaster> ah
19:36:39 <AnMaster> ok.
19:37:01 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, I don't think they are intended to be written together like that
19:37:10 <qhqrdghqst> Oh really?
19:37:10 <AnMaster> ;P
19:37:28 <qhqrdghqst> eggs in Sam train or fox... I think Dr Seuss is warning us from the grave
19:37:29 <qhqrdghqst> *are
19:37:34 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, no, it is "for beginning readers" after all
19:37:37 <qhqrdghqst> The eggs in any train owned by Sam are inevitably foxes!
19:37:39 <AnMaster> 50 words in one sentence?
19:37:44 <qhqrdghqst> oh true.
19:38:05 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, even an experienced reader have trouble keeping the context in such a long sentence
19:38:23 <qhqrdghqst> Someone make a huge sentence that ends with 10 proposition :-P
19:38:24 <qhqrdghqst> s
19:38:42 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, and someone made a sentence out of a single word: buffalo
19:38:44 <AnMaster> your point?
19:38:47 <oklofok> ais523: "I do not like green eggs and ham. I do not like them, Sam-I-Am." <<< wait green eggs? :D something started gnawing me about that sentence, but i could not quite put my finger on it until now
19:38:53 <AnMaster> oh make not made
19:38:54 <AnMaster> misread
19:38:57 <qhqrdghqst> Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo with.
19:39:07 <oklofok> (ofc green eggs might actually mean something other than rotten eggs, i just don't know what)
19:39:21 <ais523> in the book, they're just like ordinary eggs, except they're green
19:39:33 <AnMaster> oklofok, odd bird? spilled paint?
19:39:42 <fizzie> In the cartoon, the ham is also green, IIRC.
19:40:34 <oklofok> hmph, i've been trying to leave irc for like 20 minutes now, now seriously
19:40:35 <oklofok> ->
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19:43:54 <qhqrdghqst> hmmmm
19:45:23 <AnMaster> http://swtch.com/plan9port/screenshots/opensolaris.png <-- is that window manager gnome?
19:45:36 <AnMaster> I thought Solaris had some custom one
19:45:43 <qhqrdghqst> Not nowadays.
19:46:00 <AnMaster> I see
19:46:09 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, I still think OpenWindows was a nice one ;P
19:46:17 <ais523> AnMaster: it's certainly possible to theme Gnome to look like that
19:46:24 <qhqrdghqst> err, that is gnome
19:46:25 <ais523> but you could do that with other window managers too
19:46:26 <qhqrdghqst> very obviously
19:46:32 <qhqrdghqst> see: window decoration, the style of taskbar buttons
19:46:34 <qhqrdghqst> the show desktop button
19:46:38 <qhqrdghqst> and the desktop selector
19:46:40 <qhqrdghqst> and the icons next to it
19:46:45 <qhqrdghqst> and the icons on the desktop & their shadow
19:46:49 <qhqrdghqst> and the text rendering
19:46:51 <ais523> ah, I don't use default Gnome icons anyway
19:46:52 <qhqrdghqst> and the terminal's menu bar and icon
19:47:03 <ais523> you're right, the taskbar buttons look like unthemed Gnome
19:47:15 <qhqrdghqst> it's themed, just the default theme :P
19:48:24 <fizzie> Solaris' CDE wasn't what I'd call nice. Glrbh.
19:48:40 <ais523> the default theme is bluer than that
19:49:00 <qhqrdghqst> err
19:49:02 <qhqrdghqst> is it?
19:49:04 <qhqrdghqst> no it's not
19:49:10 <AnMaster> ais523, well of course you can theme it, But the icons looked gnome style. So did the applets.
19:49:14 <AnMaster> I just wasn't sure
19:49:23 <AnMaster> since I remembered solaris using something else
19:49:29 <qhqrdghqst> well it's debian's default theme at least
19:49:42 <AnMaster> and I haven't used gnome for years
19:49:57 <qhqrdghqst> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2005-July/msg00269.html I think I understand why gnome is shit now
19:50:33 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, the linked images are 404
19:50:43 <qhqrdghqst> Yes. Because it is from 2005 and linkrot.
19:50:49 <qhqrdghqst> Congratulations for noticing.
19:51:10 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, did it get accepted?
19:51:15 <qhqrdghqst> what
19:51:20 <AnMaster> that patch
19:51:22 <AnMaster> or change
19:51:23 <AnMaster> or whatecer
19:51:25 <AnMaster> whatever*
19:51:27 <qhqrdghqst> /facepalm
19:51:33 <qhqrdghqst> I'm dropping this conversation thread
19:51:37 <AnMaster> err
19:51:39 <AnMaster> I read the mail
19:51:42 <qhqrdghqst> _exit(1);
19:51:43 <AnMaster> just not the responses yet
19:51:50 <AnMaster> so what the hell are you talking about
19:52:00 <qhqrdghqst> excuse me, what are we talking about?
19:52:05 <AnMaster> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2005-July/msg00269.html
19:52:07 <AnMaster> about that
19:52:09 <qhqrdghqst> _exit(1);
19:52:12 <AnMaster> it seems to be a patch to change the theme
19:52:17 <AnMaster> the default that is
19:52:18 <ais523> what, they're making it-sensor visible in Enigma 1.01?
19:52:29 <ais523> they can't do that, or at least they should give an option for invisible sensors
19:52:35 <qhqrdghqst> it-sensor?
19:52:35 <AnMaster> ais523, ??
19:52:48 <ais523> qhqrdghqst: it's an invisible item which makes commands run when you go over it
19:52:58 <AnMaster> ais523, also "making" implies engima 1.01 isn't released yet? I'm pretty sure it is
19:52:58 <ais523> like an invisible trigger, but you can't hear it and it doesn't care about stones
19:53:02 <ais523> *1.10
19:53:05 <AnMaster> ah
19:53:32 <AnMaster> ais523, can you place it below some other tile?
19:53:45 <ais523> you can have one floor, one stone, one item, and any number of actors on a square
19:53:51 <AnMaster> mhm
19:54:05 <AnMaster> ais523, what about those levels where you go under something that looks like a floor?
19:54:07 <AnMaster> how do they work
19:54:16 <ais523> those are hollow stones which look the same as the floor beneath them
19:54:22 <AnMaster> ah
19:54:27 <ais523> so they can have an item under them
19:54:34 <ais523> and a floor under that (you wouldn't want to fall, would you?)
20:03:18 <qhqrdghqst> Sq, Qs, qnyqnq?
20:03:33 <AnMaster> ais523, mhm
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20:04:08 <AnMaster> ais523, what about the things you gets with explosives. and remove with spades
20:04:14 <AnMaster> don't know the name
20:04:18 <ais523> hollows are items
20:04:21 <AnMaster> ah
20:04:35 <ais523> you know, because you can't drop an item on their square, but you can have different sorts of floor under them, and push stones over them
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20:25:33 <AnMaster> ais523, heh
20:25:49 <AnMaster> ais523, what are actors?
20:26:10 <AnMaster> in engima I mean
20:26:23 <ais523> AnMaster: marbles, tops, etc
20:26:28 <AnMaster> ah
20:26:31 <ais523> things that aren't restricted to integer coordinates
20:27:06 <AnMaster> well I would assume they are, just integer coords == pixels instead of == tiles
20:27:15 <AnMaster> or do they really use float?
20:28:00 <oklofok> arbitrary reals
20:33:58 <AnMaster> not likely
20:33:59 <ais523> AnMaster: it's floats
20:34:06 <AnMaster> ais523, why on earth?
20:34:22 <fizzie> AnMaster: You were an X-Chatter, right? Do you happen to know how the "Colored nick names" thing picks colors for nicks?
20:34:23 <ais523> so their physics simulations work better
20:34:33 <AnMaster> oh ok
20:35:00 <lament> fizzie: it picks the most appropriate color for the personality
20:35:52 * FireFly is randomly happy
20:36:07 <fizzie> lament: Do you feel purple, then?
20:36:49 <ais523> lament's a sort of mauve on my client, the same colour as fizzie
20:36:51 <lament> I do like purple prose.
20:36:54 <ais523> and FireFly, for that matter
20:37:06 <ais523> AnMaster's green, and qhqrdghqst's cyan
20:37:21 <ais523> oklofok is a slightly redder purple than lament
20:37:34 <FireFly> I've succeded in displaying a pic at my DS
20:37:36 <ais523> and Asztal_'s grey
20:37:37 <fizzie> I'm just wondering, because this has decided that ais523 and AnMaster have the same color, which is non-optimal as you people so often coincide temporally.
20:38:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, I used to use xchat once upon a time
20:38:18 <AnMaster> nowdays I use ERC
20:38:25 <AnMaster> and I never used coloured nicks in xchat
20:38:31 <AnMaster> I don't like that feature
20:38:34 <fizzie> Right, right.
20:38:44 <lament> it just hashes the nickname
20:38:49 <AnMaster> I tend to use three colours: "normal, highlighted, own message"
20:39:26 <AnMaster> ais523, and I'm more a dark blue person
20:39:30 <AnMaster> than green
20:39:34 <AnMaster> though green is ok
20:39:35 <ais523> hey, I'm a dark blue person too
20:39:37 <ais523> but also cyan
20:39:46 * qhqrdghqst transparent, like ninja.
20:40:08 <AnMaster> ais523, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultramarine is nice
20:40:31 * qhqrdghqst octarine
20:40:52 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, doesn't go with transparent I'm afraid
20:41:09 <fizzie> Well, the text part already has the normal-highlighted-own split, so I don't mind nicks being rather colorful.
20:41:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, I do that for all of the lines, and no nick column rainbow
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20:42:55 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, what do you think of the look of plan9
20:43:08 <qhqrdghqst> It's usable but very ... well, 1992s.
20:43:11 <fizzie> Seems that color_of(char *name) is just sum of all the bytes in name, modulo amount of colors in the fixed set used for nicknames.
20:43:12 <AnMaster> well ok
20:43:13 <qhqrdghqst> s/s././
20:43:23 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, you think GTK is worse?
20:43:29 <qhqrdghqst> Absolutely.
20:43:39 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, what about QT?
20:43:48 <qhqrdghqst> fizzie: that's so boring I could take a shit on it.
20:43:53 <qhqrdghqst> if you get my analogy.
20:43:59 <qhqrdghqst> AnMaster: Qt is acceptable. Sometimes.
20:44:06 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, mhm. Motif?
20:44:20 <qhqrdghqst> AnMaster: Motif I can help it
20:44:26 <qhqrdghqst> (For guidance on the above sentence, see oerjan.)
20:44:31 <fizzie> Also the particular piece of code divides by sizeof (char), which is a rather silly way of saying 1.
20:44:53 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, well it is a "meta<whatever>" style pun I think
20:45:01 <AnMaster> that is it is supposed to sound like something else
20:45:03 <qhqrdghqst> AnMaster: Yes.
20:45:04 <AnMaster> but I don't know what
20:45:07 <qhqrdghqst> Pronounce it out aloud
20:45:10 <qhqrdghqst> "motif i can help it"
20:45:25 <AnMaster> just did. But I'm not sure how to pronounce motif in English
20:45:27 <fizzie> It's "not if" when your nose is stuffed.
20:45:38 <qhqrdghqst> fizzie: You spoiled it :P
20:45:40 <AnMaster> ah
20:45:57 <fizzie> Yes, I'm a spoiler.
20:46:01 <FireFly> if (!
20:46:08 <AnMaster> it sound more like "note if" than "not if"
20:46:20 <AnMaster> or am I mispronouncing motif?
20:46:28 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, ?
20:46:38 <qhqrdghqst> Well yeah.
20:46:40 <qhqrdghqst> It's a bad pun
20:46:59 <qhqrdghqst> fizzie: Here's a nice colourerer: abs (foldl xor 255 nick).
20:47:00 <fizzie> * IPA: /məʊ'tif/; you do need a bit of imagination there.
20:47:07 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, so is it a long or a short t in motif?
20:47:11 <qhqrdghqst> er
20:47:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, I can't really read that
20:47:19 <qhqrdghqst> foldl xor 255 (map ord nick).
20:47:21 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, err o not t
20:47:50 <qhqrdghqst> colourNick nick = foldl xor 255 (map ord nick)
20:47:54 <fizzie> "Moo-tif", the interface of choice for cows.
20:48:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, hah
20:48:30 <qhqrdghqst> Prelude Data.Char Data.Bits Test.QuickCheck> colourNick "AnMaster"
20:48:30 <qhqrdghqst> 236
20:48:31 <qhqrdghqst> Prelude Data.Char Data.Bits Test.QuickCheck> colourNick "ais523"
20:48:33 <qhqrdghqst> 176
20:48:35 <qhqrdghqst> Perfect distinguishotron.
20:48:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, err so what is the difference between "note" and "not" then. It isn't "long/short" o
20:48:51 <ais523> qhqrdghqst: what is the number? selection between 256 possible colours?
20:48:56 <qhqrdghqst> ais523: yep
20:49:01 <AnMaster> since motif ends up a bit like note if the way I say it
20:49:08 <ais523> it may be hard to find 256 different-looking colours
20:49:12 <AnMaster> yeah
20:49:17 <qhqrdghqst> Just use the standard palette
20:49:22 <qhqrdghqst> You don't get too many similar colours
20:49:37 <qhqrdghqst> let colourNick nick = foldl xor 16 (map ord nick) `mod` 16
20:49:40 <qhqrdghqst> also seems to work acceptably
20:50:47 <fizzie> AnMaster: "note" is /nəʊt/, "not" is just /nɒt/. So there's an "ou"-style diphthong in "note".
20:50:55 <AnMaster> FireFly, ah
20:50:57 <AnMaster> err
20:50:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, ^
20:51:15 <fizzie> AnMaster: But yes, "motif" is closer to "note if" than "not if".
20:51:28 <AnMaster> indeed
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20:51:59 <AnMaster> hm
20:52:05 <AnMaster> I just got an idea for the perfect OS
20:52:22 <ais523> probably quite different from ehird's/my
20:52:29 <qhqrdghqst> That is what I was thinking, ais523...
20:52:30 <AnMaster> It would be a combination of Genera, Plan 9 and QNX
20:52:31 <ais523> which are somewhat different from each other
20:52:49 <AnMaster> what do you think?
20:52:49 <qhqrdghqst> AnMaster: well, first, those are so completely different that you couldn't combine them reasonably
20:52:57 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, yeah probably
20:52:57 <qhqrdghqst> secondly, QNX isn't very interesting apart from being embedded
20:53:10 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, it is very stable though
20:53:18 <qhqrdghqst> QNX didn't invent stability
20:53:19 <AnMaster> what about just combining the first two?
20:53:23 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, that is true
20:53:27 <qhqrdghqst> "AnMaster: well, first, those are so completely different that you couldn't combine them reasonably"
20:53:33 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, hm
20:53:37 <qhqrdghqst> Adding random good stuff together isn't a recipe for success.
20:53:43 <AnMaster> well true
20:54:04 <fizzie> QNX does have interesting aspects. The distributedness stuff is fancy.
20:54:24 <AnMaster> and having almost everything in userspace
20:54:28 <qhqrdghqst> Plan 9 has a distributed CPU system
20:54:30 <qhqrdghqst> which is excellent
20:54:37 <AnMaster> I mean, IPC and scheduling are in kernel, that's about it
20:54:48 <AnMaster> iirc
20:54:51 <ais523> my OS is so microkernel, it even has its userspace in userspace!
20:54:58 <AnMaster> ais523, -_-
20:55:27 <AnMaster> all your features are belong to userspace
20:55:45 <fizzie> There was also something funny related to the file systemics, but I've forgotten what it was. My only QNX experiments were several years ago.
20:55:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, same
20:56:41 <AnMaster> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/img/mirtchov/interpolate.gif <-- that's pretty
20:57:01 <qhqrdghqst> it's like every ELER comic ever!
20:57:23 <AnMaster> Did you mean: ELLE comic
20:57:24 <AnMaster> ??
20:57:31 <qhqrdghqst> http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/
20:57:35 <qhqrdghqst> Everybody Loves Eric Raymond
20:58:17 <AnMaster> "And GIMP now supports CMYK" <-- ? Really? *looks*
21:02:45 <AnMaster> looks like a future version will have it
21:17:03 -!- fizzie has left (?).
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21:17:28 <fizzie> Whoopsie.
21:18:05 <fizzie> I am definitely not ready for this third-millennium gooey-IRC thing.
21:18:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, what?
21:19:02 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
21:19:23 <qhqrdghqst> I think I should make a realtime javascript raytracer. (At this point qhqrdghqst dies of unbelievable stupidity.)
21:19:43 <Asztal_> fizzie: did you press Ctrl-W?
21:19:45 <ais523> qhqrdghqst: it'll take you something like 20 years for the hardware to catch up
21:19:46 <fizzie> I somehow accidentally closed this tab-or-whatever-it-is, maybe with ^w or something. I've never accidentally typed "/part #esoteric" or something.
21:20:09 <ais523> accidental mouse clicks are what most commonly close tabs by mistake for me
21:20:10 <AnMaster> ais523, ctrl-m in xchat is "move marker of last line read in channel" iirc
21:20:16 <AnMaster> or was it clear window?
21:20:18 <fizzie> Hey, with TraceMonkey it'll be native-code-speed.
21:20:24 <fizzie> It's "mvoe marker line".
21:20:28 <ais523> AnMaster: err... why are you nickpinging me with that details?
21:20:29 <fizzie> s/mvoe/move/
21:20:37 <AnMaster> ais523, what?
21:20:45 <ais523> fizzie: unfortunately native speed isn't fast enough for realtime raytracing either
21:20:58 <AnMaster> ais523, I must have misread
21:21:00 <qhqrdghqst> ais523: oh, it's been done...
21:21:02 <AnMaster> two things
21:21:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Excess Flood).
21:21:14 <AnMaster> "<Asztal_> fizzie: did you press Ctrl-W?" turned out as "<ais523> fizzie: did you press Ctrl-M?"
21:21:16 <AnMaster> no idea how
21:21:16 <AnMaster> ...
21:21:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
21:22:16 <fizzie> There's been things that you could consider real-time ray-tracing, if you want to be polite about it, in demoscene prods a long time.
21:22:52 <qhqrdghqst> On June 12, 2008 Intel demonstrated Enemy Territory: Quake Wars using ray tracing for rendering, running in basic HD (720p) resolution. ETQW operated at 14-29 frames per second. The demonstration ran on a 16-core (4 socket, 4 core) Tigerton system running at 2.93 GHz.[10]
21:22:59 <qhqrdghqst> I want a 16-core system, me.
21:23:06 <qhqrdghqst> That would be pleasurable.
21:23:19 <ais523> AnMaster: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/03/16/1839231
21:23:22 <fizzie> qhqrdghqst: Just get a couple of microwaves, then you can do another core-counting experiment.
21:23:31 <ais523> it seems that Intel and AMD are rowing over x86
21:23:43 <ais523> if they end up revoking each other's licences, all sorts of ridiculous things could happen
21:23:57 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.).
21:24:01 <qhqrdghqst> ais523: probably they'll just find a loophole and change a minor bug to make it "not x86"
21:24:04 -!- MigoMipo_ has changed nick to MigoMipo.
21:24:22 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/03/16/1839231 <-- huh
21:24:30 <ais523> why is that a huh?
21:24:35 <ais523> because only ehird links people to things randomly?
21:24:43 <qhqrdghqst> http://goatse.ca/
21:24:50 <AnMaster> ais523, yes
21:24:53 <qhqrdghqst> ... which is now squatted
21:25:10 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, what about the cx original?
21:25:23 <qhqrdghqst> AnMaster: someone else owns it; it has a picture of a LEGO thing that looks like a goatse but it's SWF.
21:25:28 <qhqrdghqst> Safe for work that is.
21:25:29 <qhqrdghqst> Not flahs
21:25:31 <qhqrdghqst> *flash
21:25:31 <AnMaster> heh
21:25:39 <qhqrdghqst> and they're trying to sell it
21:25:58 <fizzie> "Buy a piece of Internet history."
21:26:12 <ais523> qhqrdghqst: what happened to the picture of Bill O'Reilly?
21:26:16 <ais523> if it ever existed?
21:26:23 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:26:24 <qhqrdghqst> it was replaced
21:30:10 <qhqrdghqst> Oh wow.
21:30:12 <qhqrdghqst> Horrible idea.
21:31:05 <qhqrdghqst> brb ->
21:31:05 <ais523> what's the horrible idea?
21:31:15 <fizzie> Maybe he went to implement it immediately.
21:34:09 <AnMaster> hah
21:45:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:45:53 <fizzie> It seems to have been a really horrible one.
22:10:11 <AnMaster> heh
22:10:26 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, btw do you know any good breakout game for OS X that is free?
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22:35:16 * comex wonders how to implement motion blur in canvas
22:35:42 <comex> where by "motion blur" I just mean blend in some previous frames
22:35:50 <comex> I guess you could create invisible canvases
22:39:10 <fizzie> You could just always draw N frames, but that doesn't sound very fast.
22:40:17 <Asztal_> by invisible canvases do you mean translucent canvases?
22:41:07 <Asztal_> have 5 canvases, and draw to each one in turn, changing the Z-order so that the most-recently-drawn-to canvas is at the top
22:41:31 <comex> that would work :|
22:42:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:42:54 <comex> I just crashed firefox
22:42:57 <comex> or hung
22:43:37 <fizzie> You can also use the toDataURL("image/png") or something to get the current frame as an image, then render those. But that would mean one extra PNG creation operation and N-1 extra PNG decoding operations per frame. The "pile of canvasii" approach sounds most sensible.
22:44:18 <comex> I was going to do a translucent draw under the assumption that it's probably faster than css
22:44:57 <comex> but since that means copying data and the other approach doesn't
22:44:58 <comex> :p
22:46:32 <fizzie> There seems to be some sort of getImageData functions you maybe could use; it still involves copying, but at least there's no PNG creation stuff.
22:46:39 <Asztal_> the canvas3D canvas context would make this a lot faster :)
22:47:02 <comex> yeah, I'm using that
22:47:04 <comex> BUT
22:47:09 <comex> looks like I can't putimagedata between canvases
22:47:10 <comex> lame
22:47:37 <comex> OH THANK GOD
22:47:43 <comex> SOMEONE is finally havnig hardware-accelerated 3d
22:48:28 <comex> scratch that
22:48:31 <comex> I was just setting it up wrong
22:51:31 <comex> WELL HELLO THERE
22:51:38 <comex> firefox is leaking memory like crazy
22:51:54 <comex> it's not freeing the image datas
22:51:55 <comex> ew
22:52:16 <comex> well, I'll use the overlay-canvases approach
22:53:34 <fizzie> It does sound simpler, at the very least.
22:53:45 <psygnisfive> oi!
22:58:23 <comex> http://qoid.us/cv.html <-- don't run in a slow browser
23:00:51 <psygnisfive> ok..
23:01:04 <psygnisfive> you should add friction.
23:01:55 * comex adds more balls
23:02:02 <comex> where by "ball" I mean "square"
23:02:17 <psygnisfive> add friction!
23:02:21 <psygnisfive> and drag!
23:03:51 <comex> I wonder how slow collision detection will be
23:03:52 <comex> probably not very
23:04:00 <comex> maybe slow if I have 100 balls
23:04:17 <psygnisfive> if you do quad tree searching it should be efficient
23:04:23 <comex> what the fuck is that
23:04:26 <comex> :p
23:05:12 <psygnisfive> well, for your thing it wouldnt be an issue since you're using squares
23:05:40 <comex> actually, screw collision detection
23:05:42 <comex> instead,
23:07:32 -!- neldoreth has quit ("leaving").
23:07:44 -!- neldoreth has joined.
23:07:49 <comex> xor http://qoid.us/cv.html
23:11:37 <psygnisfive> :o
23:11:38 <psygnisfive> magic!
23:11:45 <psygnisfive> collision is better.
23:12:41 <comex> too lazy
23:12:46 <comex> because what if they're colliding by multiple pixels
23:14:06 <psygnisfive> then you better get a time resolution good enough for that to happen :)
23:14:10 <psygnisfive> or not happen
23:17:49 <oklofok> comex: quad trees are one of the data structures that split R^n into hypercubes so you can check whether containing hypercubes intersect before doing the actual collision check.
23:17:54 <oklofok> (glad i could help)
23:18:38 <comex> psygnisfive: it's not fast enough :p
23:18:42 <oklofok> err actually quad tree is not one of them.
23:18:46 <comex> I guess I can do physics faster than actually drawing
23:18:50 <comex> but,
23:18:51 * comex tries to get canvas 3d to work on beta 3.1
23:18:55 <oklofok> but guess it can be used as such
23:18:57 <psygnisfive> oklofok!
23:19:02 <psygnisfive> let me tell you about quantifiers :D
23:19:05 <ehird> comex: that's shit
23:19:10 <comex> ehird: what
23:19:10 <oklofok> :)
23:19:24 <ehird> proof:
23:19:28 <ehird> http://www.blahbleh.com/whyiesucks.htm
23:19:36 <ehird> a 3d cube, with motion blur, in canvas, getting ~50fps
23:19:41 <ehird> ur doing it wrong, evidently :P
23:19:46 <comex> ehird: um, so?
23:19:49 <comex> I saw that
23:19:57 <ehird> yeah, and... motion blur isn't that hard?
23:19:58 <comex> the boxes are going perfectly fast (not measuring fps)
23:20:06 <psygnisfive> oklofok, can i can i huh huh huh
23:20:10 <ehird> AnMaster: lbreakout2
23:20:12 <comex> I believe that's drawing the cubes repeatedly for the motion blur
23:20:21 <comex> but they do collide by more than one pixel I think
23:20:23 <ehird> anyway, my delay was me scraping most of the skin off the back of my foot ^_^
23:20:33 <ehird> By mistake, that is.
23:20:44 <pikhq> 50 FPS *with an encoding run going*.
23:21:03 * comex stabs pikhq with rapier
23:21:05 <oklofok> psygnisfive: you can tell me seven sentences
23:21:16 <ehird> anyway, awful idea time
23:21:22 <psygnisfive> all learnable natural language quantifiers are conservative.
23:21:31 <psygnisfive> HOWS SEVEN WORDS
23:21:49 <pikhq> And this on 4 year old hardware.
23:22:02 <oklofok> psygnisfive: interesting! what does that mean?`
23:22:04 <ehird> Canvas is still shit :P
23:22:08 <oklofok> you can have another 7 words.
23:22:08 <comex> orly?
23:22:12 <comex> it's quite fast and a lot better than flash
23:22:15 <oklofok> *mean?
23:22:21 <pikhq> ehird: Less shit than everything else.
23:22:21 <ehird> comex: compare that to SDL
23:22:31 <pikhq> Well, everything else on the web.
23:22:31 <ehird> heck you could script SDL with spidermonkey
23:22:34 <ehird> it'd be 39487539457345 times faster
23:22:48 <pikhq> Compared to a proper programming environment, well, yeah. Canvas sucks.
23:22:57 <psygnisfive> suppose Q is a quantifier, relating two sets, e.g. Q(X,Y) = |X intersect Y| > |X-Y| (== "most X are Y")
23:22:58 <comex> ehird: I doubt it
23:23:15 <ehird> no, really.
23:23:18 <psygnisfive> then Q is conservative if and only if: Q(X,Y) iff Q(X, X intersect Y)
23:23:30 <comex> really 300 trillion times faster?
23:23:33 <ehird> well, no.
23:23:57 <ehird> Now.
23:23:58 <ehird> Evil time
23:24:29 <comex> http://hg.mozilla.org/users/vladimir_mozilla.com/canvas3d/
23:24:33 <comex> how the fuck am I supposed to compile that
23:24:37 <ehird> with butts
23:24:42 * comex looks up
23:24:49 <ehird> http://hg.mozilla.org/users/vladimir_mozilla.com/canvas3d/file/f050229f6011/Makefile.in
23:24:51 <ehird> Makefile.in; happy?
23:24:59 <comex> not very
23:25:50 <ehird> actually, my evil idea is kinda related to this
23:26:00 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:27:10 <pikhq> autoreconf&&./configure&&make&&make install?
23:30:07 <oklofok> psygnisfive: awesome
23:31:00 <psygnisfive> its even cooler
23:31:01 <psygnisfive> because
23:31:14 <psygnisfive> all conservative quantifiers can be built up in very simple was
23:31:16 <psygnisfive> ways*
23:31:17 <psygnisfive> namely:
23:31:24 <ehird> seeing psygnisfive get excited about linguistics amuses me
23:32:21 <psygnisfive> any boolean operation over conservative quantifiers gives a conservative quantifier
23:33:02 <psygnisfive> and: Q(X intersect C, Y) is conservative, for any set C
23:33:18 <psygnisfive> and these two together produce ALL and ONLY the conservative quantifiers
23:33:33 <psygnisfive> if you start with a single conservative quantifier all(X,Y)
23:33:34 <psygnisfive> :)
23:33:43 <psygnisfive> or some(X,Y).
23:34:46 <oklofok> cool
23:35:01 <psygnisfive> which is /very/ interesting indeed
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23:35:57 <oklofok> well i think i don't actually know what you mean by quantifier when it comes to language
23:36:10 <psygnisfive> words like all, some, most, many, few
23:36:12 <psygnisfive> all the numbers
23:36:20 <oklofok> hmm
23:36:30 <psygnisfive> more-than
23:36:52 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
23:36:59 <oklofok> what quantifier would 5 be?
23:37:14 <psygnisfive> 5 cats are small
23:37:21 <oklofok> hmm righ
23:37:22 <oklofok> t
23:37:30 <psygnisfive> 5(X,Y) = |X intersect Y| = 5
23:37:36 <psygnisfive> == 5*
23:37:38 <oklofok> yeawh
23:37:40 <oklofok> *yeah
23:37:45 <psygnisfive> well actually
23:37:46 <psygnisfive> technically
23:37:53 <psygnisfive> 5(X,Y) = |X intersect Y| >= 5
23:38:02 <oklofok> ....yeah :)
23:38:43 <oklofok> so how would you construct most out of all?
23:40:00 <psygnisfive> no clue :D
23:40:06 <psygnisfive> most is
23:40:18 <psygnisfive> most(X,Y) = |X intersect Y| > |X - Y|
23:40:21 <oklofok> you already defined most
23:40:28 <psygnisfive> we can try to reword it
23:40:34 <oklofok> hmm.
23:40:39 <oklofok> what is legal in the transformation?
23:40:52 <psygnisfive> boolean combinations of other conservative quantifiers
23:40:57 <oklofok> just all(all(X),all(all(Y),all(Z))) kinda stuff? :|
23:41:08 <psygnisfive> so Q(X) -> !Q(X)
23:41:09 <psygnisfive> and
23:41:17 <oklofok> ohh.
23:41:33 <psygnisfive> Q(X,Y), R(X,Y) -> Q(X,Y) op R(X,Y)
23:41:38 <psygnisfive> for op some boolean operator
23:41:43 <oklofok> right right.
23:41:48 <psygnisfive> and Q(X,Y) -> Q(X intersect C, Y)
23:41:52 <psygnisfive> for any set C
23:42:41 <psygnisfive> all(X,Y) = X subset Y = X - Y == 0
23:43:30 <oklofok> yeas
23:43:31 <psygnisfive> ill look at my references and see if they mention how to construct most from all
23:43:46 <oklofok> do look, i'm not really in a thinking mood, kind of a math overdose
23:45:02 <oklofok> oh my god i want to learn chemistry
23:45:28 <psygnisfive> lol
23:45:53 <oklofok> well you know molecules and stuff they're very pretty.
23:46:56 <psygnisfive> "A semantic characterization of natural language determiners" is one of the papers that discusses this
23:47:21 <oklofok> well why don't you go look then :-)
23:47:38 <psygnisfive> i cant get it
23:48:16 <psygnisfive> i have another article i can give you a copy of
23:48:30 <oklofok> nooooo exam next monday and i forgot to begin my reading journey today.
23:52:18 <psygnisfive> i have two articles for you.
23:52:31 <oklofok> buttt... i need to start my readings!
23:54:07 <psygnisfive> wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/quant1.pdf
23:54:09 <psygnisfive> wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/quant2.pdf
23:54:28 <ehird> Star Trek: Some hydrogen stars go trekking. It's a gas!
23:55:13 <Slereah_> *rimshot*
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