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00:04:18 <MizardX> «00:00:00»     «  Day changed to {Tuesday, March 17th 2009}. It's St. Patrick's day, time to get some booze!
00:04:34 <ehird> what kind of shitty irc client does that
00:04:38 <ehird> don't answer, I know: a shit one
00:05:16 <mib_p3zdz9st> esoteric programming?
00:05:33 <fizzie> Yes, even if it does not always look like it.
00:05:39 <Slereah_> darn tootin
00:07:19 <MizardX> Ehm... 12th of july: "Beware of Santa Claus!"
00:07:32 <ehird> wut
00:08:21 <MizardX> One of the day change messages
00:11:42 <mib_p3zdz9st> Any engine techs here?
00:12:15 <mib_p3zdz9st> Having an idle issue with my 3.1mpfi
00:22:33 <ehird> 23:22 ImInYourMonad: ehird: because i can understand things that are not formal systems?
00:22:39 <ehird> In response to me asking why he thinks his brain is superturing.
00:22:43 <ehird> lol lol lol
00:24:33 <ehird> 23:24 ImInYourMonad: well maybe consciousness is an illusion, but i can build a computer but a computer cant build me unless a human tells it how to
00:24:39 <ehird> ^ lol
00:28:55 <psygnisfive> i'd love to know what things are not formal systems that he can understand. lol
00:30:31 <ehird> psygnisfive: EMOTIONS & PURE LOVE
00:30:36 <ehird> &&&& THE FEELING OF MUSIC
00:30:40 <ehird> &&&& HUMANITY
00:30:44 * ehird vomits
00:30:46 <psygnisfive> i would point out that he undoubtedly doesnt understand any of those
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00:30:54 <psygnisfive> nor does he have proof that they're not formal systems.
00:30:56 <ehird> :-D
00:31:15 <ehird> It irritates me when channels go over primordial stupids about AI.
00:31:22 <ehird> WE'VE THOUGHT OF IT ALL BEFORE, GODDAMMIT
00:31:26 <ehird> You're almost certainly wrong :P
00:31:26 <psygnisfive> infact, the idea that anything can be non-formal
00:31:32 <psygnisfive> its basically a dualist view
00:31:43 <psygnisfive> material world + spiritual component
00:31:53 <psygnisfive> thats the only possible view that can even potentially admit such things
00:32:07 <ehird> mm
00:32:12 <ehird> Some people just think they're special.
00:32:25 <psygnisfive> but even then, you have to wonder how a spirit world would work if not by being based on the nature of the things involved
00:32:33 <psygnisfive> oh they ARE special ehird
00:32:35 <psygnisfive> very special
00:32:58 <ehird> as in retarded?
00:33:01 <psygnisfive> yes.
00:33:45 <ehird> psygnisfive: they're not that retarded though. some people believe in God.
00:34:01 <psygnisfive> that's even worse.
00:34:08 <ehird> that was my implication
00:34:15 <psygnisfive> what?
00:34:33 <ehird> butts
00:34:38 <psygnisfive> :d
00:34:43 <oklofok> :)))))))))))
00:34:51 <ehird> psygnisfive is so easy to please
00:34:52 <ehird> just say butts
00:34:55 <psygnisfive> :d
00:34:57 <oklofok> i believe in butts
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00:35:07 <ehird> butt butt butt butt
00:35:25 <psygnisfive> :d :d :d :d
00:35:30 <ehird> :d
00:35:37 <oklofok> hey i think i see a pattern :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
00:35:42 <psygnisfive> pruit igoe
00:36:23 <lament> i think i see a butt
00:36:37 <psygnisfive> pruit
00:36:38 <psygnisfive> igoe
00:37:07 <ehird> % grep no-link-chk **/*
00:37:07 <ehird> zsh: argument list too long: grep
00:37:08 <ehird> fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
00:37:10 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: lbreakout2 <-- it exists for OS X too? ok
00:37:13 <ehird> AnMaster: SDL
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00:40:33 <AnMaster> ehird, mgm
00:40:34 <AnMaster> mhm*
01:28:38 <mib_p3zdz9st> ROOTS BLOODY ROOTS
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02:12:15 <ehird> Things I Never Want To Here Again, #475:
02:12:18 <ehird> *Hear
02:12:19 <ehird> 01:11 comexk: also, ehird: what if I have a struct with 5000000 fields
02:13:23 <comexk> you are talking to a database and are getting a row from a table
02:13:26 <comexk> surely that's a reasonable use case
02:13:40 <ehird> 5000000. fields.
02:13:44 <ehird> weren't you going to bed
02:13:47 <comexk> yes
02:13:49 <comexk> also
02:14:01 <comexk> ehird: I was merely imitating your use of very large numbers
02:14:01 <ehird> no
02:14:03 <ehird> :P
02:14:04 <ehird> k
02:14:08 <comexk> I was referring to more like 10 fields
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03:42:14 <bsmntbombdood> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/CHIQRSX9_Plus
03:42:23 <bsmntbombdood> how does X make the language turing-complete?
03:43:48 <mib_p3zdz9st> 58 days until Frank Sinatra Day
03:43:51 <mib_p3zdz9st> oops
03:47:40 <psygnisfive> lulz.
03:47:47 <psygnisfive> X doesnt, really.
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06:20:04 <oerjan> <qhqrdghqst> (For guidance on the above sentence, see oerjan.)
06:20:20 <oerjan> it's not nice to ping me from a completely unknown nick.
06:20:34 <oerjan> not that it was unexpected who it really was.
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06:21:11 * oerjan swats ehird to make the point clear -----###
06:23:24 <oerjan> <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, so is it a long or a short t in motif?
06:23:35 <oerjan> i didn't think english had long consonants
06:23:56 <oerjan> and what they call long vowels aren't really either
06:24:00 <oerjan> iiuc
06:24:47 <oerjan> (being diphthongs)
06:25:45 <oerjan> <bsmntbombdood> how does X make the language turing-complete?
06:25:59 <oerjan> by turning it into a rotation of perl, iirc
06:26:12 <oerjan> (at least in my implementation)
06:27:48 <bsmntbombdood> i don't get it
06:28:47 <oerjan> well it's a joke, obviously
06:29:23 <oerjan> X makes the rest of the program being interpreted as a TC language.
06:29:36 <oerjan> but it is a _random_ TC language, so that it is still useless.
06:29:50 <oerjan> *be
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09:03:32 <oklofok> oerjan: isn't "beep" a long vowel?
09:11:12 <fizzie> Wiktionary's english pronunciation key has four cases of "x:" IPA markup, which would sound long-wovelish: the ɑː part in father, the iː part in ease, see (and presumably beep), the ɔː part in law, caught, saw and uː in lose, soon. Oh, and a ɜː(ɹ) construction in fur, bird.
09:12:24 <fizzie> I can't think of an example where the just different vowel lengths would have different meanings. We (Finnish) do that all the time.
09:12:33 <fizzie> s/the just/just the/
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09:15:47 <oklofok> they often have different meanings, it's just the vowel changes when it's lengthened
09:35:37 <psygnisfive> english has no vowel length contrast
09:35:47 <psygnisfive> no true contrast, anyway
09:37:40 <psygnisfive> you can analyze /i:/ and /I/ as contrasting length, but they differ greatly in quality
09:38:04 <psygnisfive> and often phonetically the length isnt different at all
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10:18:29 * AnMaster ponders the Swedish "sil" and "sill". They mean very different things
10:18:46 <AnMaster> and vowel length is the only difference
10:19:52 <AnMaster> sil ~ sieve, sill is a type of fish, don't remember the English name for it.
10:24:51 <fizzie> Finnish "taka", "takka", "taakka" and "takaa" all have very different meanings. ("taka" ~ back, used in compound words, "takka" is a fireplace, "taakka" ~ burden, and "takaa" is the third-person-singular form of the verb assure, although it's also approximately "from behind" too.)
10:25:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, assure from behind?
10:27:17 <fizzie> That would be "takaa takaa", although it doesn't really make sense. Usually the object being assured would be rather close to the "takaa"-used-as-verb. I can't really invent a non-artificial-sounding sentece which would have those two words consecutively like that.
10:27:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, it sounds rather strange that a single word has two so different meanings...
10:28:08 <AnMaster> and with the same spelling
10:28:36 <fizzie> One is an adverb, the other is a verb, so it's usually rather easy to interpret from context which one it is.
10:29:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, but why have they ended up the same?
10:29:16 <fizzie> And it's only that particular third-person-singular case of the verb, anyway. The infinitive ("to assure") is "taata".
10:30:20 <fizzie> I assure ~ min� takaan, you assure ~ sin� takaat, he/she assures ~ h�n takaa, we assure ~ me takaamme, you assure (plural) ~ te takaatte, they assure ~ he takaavat.
10:31:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, so what is the etymology(sp?)
10:31:35 <fizzie> No clue, but I assume most of our multiple-meanings words are because of the metric assload of noun cases we have.
10:31:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, "noun cases"?
10:32:17 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language_noun_cases
10:32:35 <fizzie> Goes with the "not a lot of prepositions" thing.
10:32:39 <AnMaster> oh sorry, got to rush, I'm late...
10:32:40 <AnMaster> afk
10:33:21 <fizzie> No worries, it's not like it makes any sense; it's a natural language, after all.
10:51:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: In most cases if you ask about the etymology of a Finnish word you'll get either 'nobody knows' or 'proto-Finno-Ugric' both of which mean essentially that it's been like that forever and nobody knows why.
10:53:58 <fizzie> Wiktionary's Etymology for "taata" is "From earlier *takata", which isn't very informative.
11:11:00 <fizzie> Why is the official support always so useless? I have this NAS box with two SATA slots, and two 750 GB disks full of stuff in a RAID-1 setup in a computer, and would like to migrate them to the NAS box so they can noisily hum in a different room. Official answer as to how to do it without backing up all those gigabytes to somewhere elsewhere:
11:11:39 <fizzie> "This cannot be done cause the filesystem in the NSA-220. This needs to be set up in the NSA and you cant import a disc with content on it. So you need to move the files to another HDD and then import the files that you want."
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11:13:32 <Deewiant> Damn, I thought djinn and jean would be a long-wovel-distinction example but they're /dʒɪn/ and /dʒiːn/
11:14:20 <fizzie> I asked if their web-configurator is flexible enough so that I could configure one of those disks as a degraded RAID-1 thing, but they ignored that completely. I also asked for details on how the box sets up disks and filesystems, so I could prepare the disk in advance (the box is linux-based and does not use any proprietary file systems or anything), but they also ignored that completely.
11:14:45 <fizzie> Just "this cannot be done cause the filesystem". Right.
11:17:26 <fizzie> I'm not sure I could reliably distinguish ɪ and i.
11:18:15 <Deewiant> I think they're somewhat interchangeable in Finnish.
11:18:39 <Deewiant> Anyhoo, the latter is 'sharper' if you can understand that
11:18:57 <Deewiant> Where you open your mouth really wide
11:20:06 <Deewiant> I think I can pronounce 'niin' either way, for instance, and neither really sounds wrong
11:22:04 <Deewiant> It could be I'm just doing it wrong, alternatively. :-P
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11:23:22 <fizzie> There are some phonology-related thing our Swedish teacher gripes about constantly, and I think it's another case of pretty-much-equivalent-in-Finnish pair.
11:25:31 <fizzie> I think it was related to ø/ɵ-like sounds.
11:26:09 <fizzie> Even the symbols look pretty similar. :p
11:29:08 <fizzie> Oh, and the Russian ɨ, that was another difficult one.
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13:28:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, heh ok
13:30:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, to me djinn and jean sound quite different...?
13:31:20 <oklofok> <0lö.-
13:33:09 <oklofok> × AnMaster ponders the Swedish "sil" and "sill". They mean very different things ||| AnMaster: and vowel length is the only difference <<< a swedish guy once told me the long ones are different from the short ones
13:33:28 <oklofok> (ofc you probably wouldn't know that from just speaking it natively)
13:33:35 <AnMaster> hm?
13:33:57 <AnMaster> double consonant in Swedish means the vowel directly in front is shorter
13:34:00 <oklofok> that swedish has different vowels for short and long versions.
13:34:21 <oklofok> yes, and a different vowel, according to a swedish person on #random_channel
13:34:37 <AnMaster> btw in English I find the difference between joke/yoke/yolk hard. I mean to me they sound almost the same
13:34:44 <AnMaster> mean,*
13:35:07 <AnMaster> oklofok, hm maybe, we usually call them long/short versions though
13:35:18 <oklofok> joke and yoke have nothing to do with each other
13:35:20 <AnMaster> maybe IPA thinks it is a different one
13:35:59 <oklofok> the "y" there is like swedish "jag", the "j" is a french version of the usual "ch" sound
13:36:06 <oklofok> i'm not sure whether that exists in swedish
13:36:11 <AnMaster> hm?
13:36:23 <oklofok> and i think yolk is equal to yoke
13:36:35 <oklofok> AnMaster: what was unclear?
13:36:54 <AnMaster> oklofok, they yoke and joke sound the same to me
13:37:12 <fizzie> The word "tjock" has a vaguely joke-'j'-like sound, I think. Although my Swedish is very rusty.
13:37:20 <AnMaster> s/they//
13:37:23 <oklofok> AnMaster: they can't sound the same to you, sorry.
13:37:32 <AnMaster> oklofok, ?
13:38:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm. That would depend on dialect. Like "tjoke"?
13:38:15 <AnMaster> more like "djoke" someone said iirc
13:38:43 <oklofok> AnMaster: swedish has the consonant that starts "yoke", i'm not sure it has the one in "joke", but it's just a voiced "ch", which you should have.
13:39:11 * AnMaster wonders why the faviconfor wikitionary looks like random garbage in one tab...
13:39:18 <AnMaster> favicon for*
13:39:44 <AnMaster> hm reloading it fixed it
13:39:52 <oklofok> AnMaster: also i checked the yoke/yolk thing at one source, and they seem to be the same.
13:40:07 <oklofok> so you probably shouldn't be able to distinguish between them
13:40:10 <AnMaster> oklofok, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yolk lists too ways to pronounce it
13:40:38 <AnMaster> UK/US
13:40:45 <oklofok> but you definitely should recognize joke/yolk
13:41:40 <oklofok> unless you pronounce "joke" like you would in swedish ofc
13:42:03 <AnMaster> oklofok, and that I can't really hear the difference...
13:43:13 <AnMaster> s/that//
13:44:10 <oklofok> well. confusing "ch" and "j" is a common mistake for finns, but we don't have either of those really. and i'm pretty sure you have all the consonants necessary to distinguish between joke and yoke.
13:45:31 <oklofok> i mean it's still not acceptable not to know the difference ofc, but at least i can believe it could happen.
13:45:53 <AnMaster> oklofok, it is the difference in the j/y sound there that is hard + I'm pretty sure it isn't at all like "tjock" as fizzie suggested. At least not the way "tjock" is pronounced in these parts of the country...
13:46:16 <fizzie> I have to agree that the difference between /j/ and /dʒ/ (which is what "yoke" and "joke" start with, according to OED) should be rather noticeable, given that the first one isn't even a fricative ("shshsh"-like sound) at all.
13:46:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, we don't have "fricative" sounds in Swedish though
13:46:49 <fizzie> Uh, you do.
13:46:49 <oklofok> ...
13:46:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, not for j at least?
13:47:02 * oklofok suddenly symphatizes with ehird
13:47:06 <fizzie> For example ɕ, as in kjol "skirt".
13:47:39 * oklofok cannot accept someone knowing less phonetics than the little that he does
13:47:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm, "fricative" is what we in Swedish call "tonande ljud" right?
13:48:18 <fizzie> I don't know Swedish, but that sounds like "voiced sound", which is a very different thing.
13:48:24 <AnMaster> hm
13:48:43 <oklofok> and swedish has voiced sounds
13:48:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, then what is "fricative" in Swedish? I don't have a dictionary around here atm...
13:50:05 <oklofok> fizzie: isn't the "y" kinda fricative? i mean you're basically narrowing the passage of air in the vowel "e", which is afaik the definition of fricative
13:50:17 <oklofok> i mean i know it isn't actually a fricative, but i don't think it's that far away
13:50:41 <fizzie> Well, your fricatives (according to wikipedia) are f (as in 'fot' - foot), s (as in 'sot' - soot), ɕ (as in 'kjol' - skirt) and ɧ (as in 'sjok' - chunk).
13:51:29 <fizzie> oklofok: I think you need to get some serious turbulence in your airflow before you can call it a fricative.
13:52:28 <fizzie> Any shushy-type sound probably qualifies. But Swedish doesn't seem to have any voiced fricatives. Maybe. I know so little about these things that any attempt at sensible discussion is pretty much doomed to failure.
13:52:35 * AnMaster tries to find the common pattern in those sounds
13:52:38 <oklofok> actually i can pronounce it as a fricative, getting an "h" type of sound
13:52:50 <oklofok> so i guess it's not very fricative
13:53:31 <AnMaster> ah hm I think I see
13:53:32 <oklofok> fizzie: yeah but this is not about sensible discussion, it's about being annoyed about AnMaster not knowing english! or maybe it's just me.
13:54:03 <oklofok> anyway there was this game idea i had, any nice name ideas?
13:54:06 <AnMaster> well Swedish doesn't have /dʒ/ afaik. If we do, where?
13:55:01 <fizzie> I don't think you do; but personally I find even the "fricative/not" difference between j in yoke and dʒ in joke very discernible.
13:55:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, you have those sounds in fi?
13:55:42 <oklofok> no, but like you, we have the "y"
13:56:09 <AnMaster> yes that isn't an issue. The issue is that /dʒ/ sound the same!
13:57:10 <fizzie> We have precious few sounds here. Especially as far as fricatives go, we just have f and s, unless you start counting non-native words.
13:57:12 <oklofok> actually just the fact there's a "d" before the voiced "sh" should be enough of a difference
13:57:27 <oklofok> also you could argue we don't really have f
13:58:01 <fizzie> Actually, officially speaking it should be *we* who should be complaining about the joke/yoke thing, since:
13:58:03 <fizzie> "[f] appears in native words only in the Southwestern dialects, but is reliably distinguished by Finnish speakers. The rest of the foreign fricatives are not. 'š' or 'sh' [ʃ] appears only in non-native words, often pronounced 's', although some educated speakers make a distinction between e.g. šakki 'chess' and sakki 'a gang (of people)'. The orthography also includes the letters 'z' [z] and 'ž' or 'zh' [ʒ], although their use is marginal, and they have
13:58:03 <fizzie> no true phonemic status. For example, azeri and džonkki may be pronounced aseri and tsonkki without fear of confusion."
13:58:59 <fizzie> According to that, we can barely distinguish s and f.
13:59:26 <AnMaster> s/f is easy for me
13:59:37 <oklofok> then again the finnish recommendation is to pronounce all loan words as originally spoken, which i don't think all languages enforce
13:59:48 <oklofok> AnMaster: kind of a useless comment
13:59:54 <AnMaster> oklofok, yes
14:00:01 <oklofok> maybe that was your point
14:00:17 <AnMaster> well partly
14:00:21 <AnMaster> well,*
14:03:18 <fizzie> Incidentally, I blame this fricative-poorness for the fact that learning Russian pronunciation was so difficult; they've got something like seven s-style characters: с, ц, ч, ш, щ, х and ж.
14:03:41 <AnMaster> heh
14:04:41 <fizzie> Especially the ш, щ difference was something really silly. Wikipedia explains the first as "sh in shut (voiceless retroflex fricative)" and the second as "similar to the "sh" in sheer (but with a slightly more "y" sound)
14:04:41 <fizzie> (sometimes followed by
14:04:41 <fizzie> a sound similar to the "ch" in chip (closer to a "y" and "ch" sound at the same time) such as the phrase "Welsh cheese") (voiceless alveolo-palatal fricative)"
14:05:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, isn't the sh in shut and sheer the same?
14:06:02 <fizzie> To me it is. But note that it's "with a slightly more 'y' sound".
14:06:24 <AnMaster> err, sh with y? I can't even imagine a mix of them
14:07:37 <fizzie> It just sounded (in the samples we listened to) "sharper" in an unidentifiably vague way, to me.
14:11:00 <fizzie> Actually that щ, being the voiceless alveolo-palatal fricative, should be pronounced pretty much exactly like your word 'kjol'. So that's what it sounds like. Now you just need to imagine the same thing but "with a slightly less 'y' sound" to understand ш.
14:16:11 <oklofok> i don't know about the "more 'y' sound" thing, but the sh's sound different to me because of the following vowel
14:17:38 <oklofok> but dunno.
14:20:11 <fizzie> Oh, and then Russian has the ы character, pronounced /ɨ/, which we completely lack; that sounded pretty strange too. It's almost midway between very "normal" i and u. (Swedish example words: is 'ice', bot 'penance' -- apparently you only have our "u" vowel as a long one, the short variant is a bit different.)
14:20:46 <AnMaster> eh?
14:20:55 <AnMaster> where is u in bot?
14:21:11 <AnMaster> or do you call the o sound "u" suddenly?
14:21:18 <oklofok> because he's talking to me
14:21:34 <oklofok> and explained what he meant by swedish examples so you'd understand too
14:22:24 <oklofok> (also the finnish vowels are better as universal vowels, since they are unambiguous, unlike yours)
14:22:28 <AnMaster> hm so it is between a long "i" and a long "o"?
14:22:48 <oklofok> apparently.
14:23:02 <oklofok> can't say i see how that would go, but i suck at vowels
14:23:18 <oklofok> they are mostly just a big mess to me
14:23:59 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, and according to ickypedia it's also found in Swedish: in the word bi ('bee') "in dialects in Närke and Bohuslän and in sociolects in Stockholm and Gothenburg".
14:24:32 <fizzie> Sociolect is a funny term.
14:24:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah that iiiii
14:25:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, The i in Närke is different from the i in Bohuslän
14:25:23 <oklofok> hmm, i may know it too, but would have to hear it
14:25:26 <AnMaster> but you need to be from either Närke or Bohuslän to hear the difference. Most Swedes don't
14:25:34 <fizzie> oklofok: I think someone compared it to a drunk man speaking.
14:25:39 * AnMaster speaks with a slight hint of närkinska
14:25:59 <oklofok> fizzie: then it's probably what i'm thinkin of
14:26:01 <oklofok> *g
14:26:24 <oklofok> maybe i should take those phonetics lessons from psygnisfive at some point
14:27:24 <fizzie> I'm sure he'd be more than happy to give you some "lessons", yes.
14:27:43 <oklofok> ;;;;)
14:27:54 <oklofok> yeah that wasn't very funny
14:28:38 <oklofok> with actual linguistics i wouldn't be as afraid, since he's probably more interested in that than sex
14:28:49 <oklofok> but i don't think he's that interested in phonetics
14:28:52 <fizzie> "grep -i 'psygnisfive' *  | grep -i oklopol" was funny reading.
14:29:04 <oklofok> :D
14:29:05 <oklofok> paste
14:30:01 <fizzie> http://pastie.org/private/dbfuik4fr6bshmy0r4kf9a   is a very short snippet.
14:30:10 <fizzie> He just sounds so excited in that, is all.
14:30:43 <oklofok> i love the beginning
14:30:59 <oklofok> "look at me oklopol!"
14:31:50 <oklofok> i'm actually doing esolang related stuff atm btw :o
14:32:10 <oklofok> finally my life is back on track
14:33:18 <fizzie> Ooh, that reminds me, I have a seminar course presentation tomorrow, I should be doing some slides for it. And there's a "design some homework for the other students" thing too.
14:33:32 <fizzie> (I'm not sure why it reminds me; the seminar is not esolang-related.)
14:34:47 <oklofok> "design some homework for the other students" <<< like on a course?
14:35:10 <oklofok> we once had "make a question to be put on the exam" in high school
14:35:37 <fizzie> Yes. It's this seminar course; every presentationer has to do a "does not take more than 30 minutes to answer" homework assignment, present it to the other students, and grade them.
14:36:04 <fizzie> Come to think of it, I should also actually *do* the last guy's homework thing.
14:36:06 <oklofok> so O(n) homework
14:36:23 <oklofok> hopefully it's not a big seminar
14:36:33 <fizzie> It's not; there's something like 14-16 of us.
14:37:03 <fizzie> 12, actually.
14:37:29 <oklofok> seminar about what? can you somehow integrate a stack language for creating fractals in the exercise?
14:37:51 <fizzie> I don't think I can, as it's about noise-robust speech recognition.
14:39:24 <fizzie> I don't think I mentioned, but my conference paper (vaguely on the same topics) was accepted to this SPECOM conference (in St. Petersburg this summer), so now I'll get a published paper. I feel like a real science-man! (Or, as we in the business call it, a scientsist.)
14:39:43 <oklofok> cool, you're practically famous!
14:40:07 <fizzie> It does lead to a well-defined Erdös number, but that's about it as far as benefits go.
14:41:09 <oklofok> and what would that number be (in value)?
14:41:39 <fizzie> A six, through the co-author path: fizzie - Kurimo, Mikko - Oja, Erkki - Cooper, Leon N. - Zeitouni, Ofer - Diaconis, Persi W. - Erdös, Paul.
14:41:58 <fizzie> I have not verified that this is the shortest path, so 6 is more of an upper bound really.
14:42:23 <oklofok> :D
14:42:38 <oklofok> is there a good database of who's worked with whom?
14:43:25 <fizzie> There's the MathSciNet database of math-related papers.
14:43:51 <fizzie> http://www.ams.org/mathscinet/collaborationDistance.html   if you happen to be in a network of a subscribing institution.
14:44:13 <oklofok> i am not
14:44:18 <fizzie> There's a "Use Erdös" button directly next to the "another author" text field, so it's pretty obvious what it is for.
14:44:40 <oklofok> :D
14:44:49 <fizzie> But it's only math stuff, so I had to do some creative guessing to find the beginning of that path.
14:45:43 * oklofok looked up oerjan
14:45:48 <oklofok> he beat you.
14:45:56 <fizzie> It's very likely.
14:46:09 <fizzie> 6 is not an especially low number.
14:49:43 <fizzie> Should be an ő there in Erdős instead of ö, but I didn't bother figuring out how to get that character here.
14:53:34 <oklofok> and ended up both doing it wrong *and* figuring it out
14:55:09 <fizzie> I had it written correctly in earlier irclogs, so when I grepped for that value, I got a copy-pasteable ő for free.
15:50:10 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:53:07 <Deewiant> AnMaster: djinn and jean sound almost the same, the difference is only in the vowel sound
15:54:04 -!- Hiato has joined.
15:54:41 <oklofok> i've heard you speak perfect english, Deewiant, is this true
15:55:00 <Deewiant> Of course
15:55:20 <oklofok> mm that's nice
15:58:13 <fizzie> I've heard that you are also in all other senses the singular example of perfection in this world, Deewiant; is this true too?
15:58:24 <Deewiant> Of course
15:58:45 <oklofok> hey! i really did hear that :P
15:59:29 <oklofok> and you will never know where
15:59:43 <oklofok> mwahahah
15:59:45 * oklofok leaves
16:05:12 <Asztal_> the gu
16:06:53 <Asztal_> Stupid enter key... the hungarians translate the english 'j' as dzs, so the djin/jean thing makes sense to me
16:07:20 <Deewiant> Well, an alternative spelling for 'djinn' is 'jinn' :-P
16:07:26 <Asztal_> who put return next to backspace, and are they alive so I can stab them?
16:07:26 <fizzie> The Gungans.
16:07:46 <Deewiant> Just move backspace elsewhere if it bothers you
16:08:05 <fizzie> On certain laptop keyboards, it's easy to hit enter instead of ' when doing contractions.
16:10:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well yes, but that is a rather large difference
16:10:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, I never claimed that they're supposed to sound the same, the whole point was that they'd differ in the length of the vowel only
16:10:47 <AnMaster> bbl
16:10:54 <Deewiant> And that was a failed example because they differ in the vowel itself, not only its length
17:12:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah yes
17:38:26 <ehird> 05:34:37 <AnMaster> btw in English I find the difference between joke/yoke/yolk hard. I mean to me they sound almost the same
17:38:33 <ehird> hrm, that's a pet peeve of mine…
17:38:41 <AnMaster> ehird, eh?
17:38:41 <ehird> yolk/yoke I can understand
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17:38:47 <ehird> but in english y and j are very separat
17:38:47 <ehird> e
17:38:59 <ehird> j is sorta like... dg
17:39:02 <AnMaster> ehird, well it is hard if you don't have one of the sounds in your own language
17:39:06 <ehird> yes
17:39:29 <AnMaster> ehird, and Swedish doesn't have /dʒ/
17:39:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: But you've got /tʃ/, no?
17:39:59 <Deewiant> Hmm, maybe you don't actually
17:40:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, *looks up what that one is*
17:40:12 <Deewiant> Swedish is such a soft language :-P
17:40:18 <oklofok> they do, and the "d" is audible too, and they have "d"
17:40:19 <Deewiant> No, you don't have that
17:40:22 <oklofok> hmm
17:40:36 <oklofok> i don't actually see that character correctly
17:40:43 <oklofok> so may be wrong yes
17:41:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxwrVw6Vsjw
17:41:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as "ch" in "chip" according to wikipedia? We have it in non-native words. Such as "chips" (the food stuff)
17:41:33 <ehird> AnMaster: My attempt to say yolk and joke as clearly as possible: http://filebin.ca/bxjget/yolkyjokey.ogg
17:41:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yep
17:41:41 <ehird> May help :P. (May amuse others.)
17:41:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, though most people say it a bit differently in Swedish
17:41:58 <AnMaster> something like "schips"
17:42:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, I'd expect so
17:42:01 <AnMaster> if you see what I mean
17:42:08 <Deewiant> Because it's not a Swedish sound.
17:42:11 <AnMaster> indeed
17:42:28 <oklofok> what's the "tjock" sound?
17:43:20 <AnMaster> ehird, well there is a very slight difference that i heard the second time I listened to it. However some of the times I'm not sure which you said.
17:43:23 <Deewiant> Plain /tjok/ or something, I think
17:43:30 <oklofok> ohh.
17:43:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Wow. Swedish ears are broken :P
17:43:43 <ehird> Have a transcript:
17:43:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, depends a bit on dialect
17:44:18 <AnMaster> (I think)
17:44:23 <ehird> AnMaster: yolk, yolk, joke, joke, joke, joke, blah blah blah joke, joke, joke, JOKE, yolk, yolk, YOLK
17:44:39 <AnMaster> or maybe sociolect (spelling?)
17:45:09 <Deewiant> ehird: That JOKE sounded like CHOKE to me
17:45:17 <Deewiant> Too aspirated
17:45:20 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah I was trying to emphasize the J
17:45:23 <ehird> didn't work too well
17:47:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I doubt you could hear the difference between the various dialectal "i" variations in Sweden. Especially between Närkinska and Bohuslänska, I even know a lot of Swedes that think they are the same (they are not). Alas I can't record it to help you compare since I can't speak Bohusländska.
17:48:09 <ehird> I doubt so too
17:48:13 <AnMaster> (though I can manage Närkinska like a native)
17:48:17 <ehird> Fuck, I have troubles with ü.
17:48:29 <Deewiant> ü?
17:48:30 <AnMaster> ehird, as in "uber"?
17:48:38 <Deewiant> Oh, /y/.
17:48:44 <AnMaster> yes it is y-ish
17:48:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, I can handle that. But a lot of occurances are hard to make out for me.
17:48:47 <AnMaster> very easy for me
17:49:02 <AnMaster> and I don't even know German. I took French classes instead!
17:49:19 <ehird> shi shi shi shi, shi shi shi, shi shi shi shi shi
17:49:20 <AnMaster> ehird, Swedish has that sound. Though we spell it using "y"
17:49:25 <AnMaster> not a very common sound though
17:49:35 <Deewiant> It's not quite the same actually
17:49:37 <ehird> (For the person who lives under a rock: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-Eating_Poet_in_the_Stone_Den)
17:49:37 <oklofok> the "shi"'s shouldn't be too hard to distinguish
17:49:40 <Deewiant> I thought they sounded a bit different
17:49:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh? They are very close though
17:50:02 <oklofok> (unless there are phonetic differences on top of the tones)
17:50:28 <oklofok> (and i don't think there are)
17:50:36 <Deewiant> Or hmm, I'm not sure, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_phonology isn't explicit about which vowel maps to which letter
17:50:55 <Deewiant> Anyhoo, Swedish y is /ʏ/ and Finnish y is /y/
17:51:07 <AnMaster> btw I know someone from Germany who lived in Sweden since the 1950s or so and still have troubles with the Swedish word "sju" (seven)
17:51:11 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_phonology says German ü is /y/ but I'm not sure I agree
17:51:23 <AnMaster> don't know what the IPA is for it
17:51:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: /ɧʏ/ I think
17:51:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that looks like a blur in this font.
17:52:08 <ehird> James while John had^N a better effect on the teacher.
17:52:12 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palatal-velar_fricative - took me a few months to learn this one to an acceptable level when I first learned Swedish
17:52:15 <ehird> s/N/n/
17:52:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh that is easy
17:52:29 <AnMaster> for me
17:52:30 <AnMaster> ;P
17:52:45 <FireFly> :D
17:52:51 <Deewiant> Well yeah, you've used it daily for 20 years :-P
17:53:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what I remember was a problem is that it can be spelled in lots of way. That was a major problem when I was around 6 or 7 or so
17:54:02 <oklofok> Deewiant: is that the "sju" sound?
17:54:04 <Deewiant> Sj? Can it?
17:54:10 <Deewiant> oklofok: I'm fairly sure it is
17:54:14 <oklofok> right
17:54:25 <oklofok> i think i know it well enough to fool most finns, probably not swedes tho
17:54:27 <Deewiant> And yes, it is, the other one I thought it was is the same one
17:54:36 <ehird> i wanna learn
17:54:38 <Deewiant> oklofok: Yeah, I guess I'm that way too
17:54:39 <oklofok> then again many finns don't know it exists.
17:54:39 <ehird> ITHKUIL PRONOUNCIATION
17:54:47 <ehird> and then KILL MYSELF out of HORROR
17:54:53 <AnMaster> err
17:55:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that page you linked said "sje-sound"
17:55:10 <Deewiant> ehird: Start with Czech
17:55:17 <AnMaster> sure that is the one in sju?
17:56:03 <AnMaster> isn't it the one in "stjärna" or "tjära"?
17:56:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: e.g. sjok
17:56:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is the sound in stjärna and tjära  called then?
17:56:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I think that's two sounds
17:56:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "stj"?
17:56:54 <FireFly> ...yeah
17:57:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, the "tj" part
17:57:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I mean, the "s" is obviously separate :-P
17:57:25 <FireFly> That's two different sounds?
17:57:28 <AnMaster> well yes
17:57:50 * AnMaster considers.
17:58:02 <ehird> I want a language based on the lambda calculus and horn clauses or something.
17:58:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: ɕ is the sound at the start of "kjol"
17:58:10 <Deewiant> But that's a bit different IMO?
17:58:20 <AnMaster> ok they are slightly different yes, but rather close
17:58:29 <ehird> Like, it's all anonymous horn clauses.
17:58:36 <ehird> Natural laanguge.
17:58:37 <ehird> That is.
17:58:38 <ehird> Conlang.
17:58:44 <FireFly> That's the kind of tj in tjära
17:59:01 <FireFly> The kj in kjol
17:59:05 <AnMaster> just don't mix up tjära with kära!
17:59:14 <FireFly> :D
17:59:33 <Deewiant> That's easy, they're very different :-P
17:59:33 <AnMaster> I mean it could be awfully embarrassing
17:59:51 <FireFly> "Jag har min kära i burken där"
18:00:04 <Deewiant> :-D
18:00:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually no. Or it depends on dialect. There is a difference yes. But not that large.
18:00:12 <AnMaster> FireFly, hehe
18:00:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, to me it's an obvious difference.
18:00:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It's like the difference between 'j' and 'ch'. (Or 'j' and 'y'? :-P)
18:01:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, tch and k?
18:01:14 <oklofok> how's "tjära" pronounced?
18:01:46 <AnMaster> also it is rather easy to say something in the middle that could be interpreted as either
18:02:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, from what I heard of "finlandssvenska" the difference is way larger in that
18:02:42 <Deewiant> Well yeah, because Finns can't pronounce stuff correctly. :-P
18:02:43 <oklofok> finlandssvenska is an unlanguage
18:02:56 <FireFly> Like unlambda
18:03:00 <Deewiant> It could be that I'm still thinking of 'tjära' incorrectly.
18:03:02 <oklofok> yes, exactly
18:03:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I remember some animated movies based on Tove Janson's books that I watched when I was small. They spoke "finlandssvenska" there. And there the difference was much larger yes
18:04:35 <AnMaster> FireFly, btw can you hear a difference between the "i" sound in Närkinska and the "i" sound in Bohusländska?
18:04:40 <oklofok> i don't see why any finnish person would want to learn finlandssvenska, maybe we should have finlandsenglish too and just accept the fact people don't like to learn languages well
18:05:00 * FireFly is no good at dialects :
18:05:05 * FireFly is no good at dialects :/
18:05:09 <FireFly> Eh
18:05:13 <AnMaster> mhm
18:05:13 <FireFly> Bleh
18:05:18 <FireFly> [18:05:03] [KVS] Warning: Stray backslash at the end of the script
18:05:29 <AnMaster> FireFly, "KVS"?
18:05:40 <FireFly> KVIrc
18:05:48 <AnMaster> never heard of it before
18:05:55 <ehird> it's a shit kde client
18:06:08 * FireFly likes it
18:06:32 <ehird> 05:47:02 * oklofok suddenly symphatizes with ehird
18:06:34 <ehird> <3
18:06:36 <ehird> let's get married.
18:07:03 <AnMaster> probably what ehird said... since the package description includes the word "advanced". It is like you should be careful of any country known as the "Democratic republic of <whatever>"
18:07:18 <AnMaster> those are probably not democracies
18:07:29 <ehird> doesn't emacs claim to be advanced
18:07:35 <ehird> :)
18:07:58 <FireFly> Linux is more 'advanced' than Windows
18:08:02 <FireFly> Beware
18:08:06 <AnMaster> ehird, that is different. I was talking about the one line descriptions in the package manager. And for emacs that is:     Description:         The extensible, customizable, self-documenting real-time display editor
18:08:13 <ehird> AnMaster: democratic republic of the united states of america
18:08:14 <AnMaster> which sound just as bad
18:08:28 <ehird> REAL-TIME DISPLAY EDITOR, AnMaster
18:08:29 <ehird> that's amazing
18:08:40 <ehird> you can edit and see changes as soon as your screen repaints!
18:08:46 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah package maintainer must be an idiot
18:08:47 <ehird> you can see lines you're not even editing for context!
18:08:50 <ehird> this emacs is *wild*
18:08:54 <ehird> AnMaster: gnu.org describes it as that
18:08:59 <AnMaster> oh my
18:09:03 <ehird> blame rms being a 70s hobo
18:09:10 <lament> boho
18:09:21 <ehird> i'm going to watch stephen fry's hilarious gnu video now
18:09:21 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't the full name "United States of America"?
18:09:27 <ehird> and cringe
18:09:30 <ehird> AnMaster: it was a joke
18:09:33 <AnMaster> ah
18:09:49 <oklofok> :D
18:10:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I would have guessed that if it had been before Obama became president. Now it was a bit more confusing
18:10:27 <ehird> yeah obama shits rainbows and magic.
18:10:40 <AnMaster> no. But do you prefer Obama or Bush?
18:11:02 <oklofok> family guy said bush is pretty stupid
18:11:05 <ehird> do you want a bath of dung or a bath of vomit or a bath of urine CHOOSE QUICKLY
18:11:22 <oklofok> then again south park said obama is a jewel thief.
18:11:32 <oklofok> i don't know what to believe.
18:11:42 <ehird> bushama bin laden
18:11:52 <ehird> ^ITHE TRUTH IS OUT^I
18:11:55 <AnMaster> ehird, if I were a pig: the first. But since I'm a human the last one + whatever they use to clean water on ISS.
18:12:02 <oklofok> i'd probably go for urine
18:12:25 <oklofok> then number one, vomit probably last
18:13:48 <AnMaster> http://www.kvirc.net/ <-- wth at the web site design. The thing at the top look like from some fantasy game...
18:13:58 <AnMaster> what on earth does it has to do with irc?
18:14:12 <ehird> AnMaster: a bunch of irc clients are like that
18:14:14 <ehird> dunno why
18:14:20 <ehird> probably because of irc's LEET HAXOR sort of rep.
18:14:28 <AnMaster> heh
18:14:32 <AnMaster> ehird, what other ones?
18:14:38 <ehird> crap ones
18:15:17 <ehird> 17:15 CTCP-reply VERSION from Robdgreat : Microsoft Internet Explorer v3.0
18:15:19 <ehird> AIEEEEEEEEEEE
18:15:24 <AnMaster> http://www.irssi.org/ <-- "irssi - the client of the future" hahaha.
18:15:25 <ehird> :D
18:15:31 <AnMaster> ehird, you would like that!
18:15:46 <AnMaster> it has a graphical installer on windows it seems!
18:15:49 <AnMaster> oh the irony
18:16:10 <ehird> 17:15 CTCP-reply ERRMSG from clog : unknown CTCP: VERSION
18:16:15 <lament> irssi the best
18:16:32 <lament> <3
18:16:35 <ehird> limechat<3
18:16:36 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:16:40 <AnMaster> lament, well it is a good client, but I don't like it personally
18:16:49 <ehird> hi ais523
18:16:52 <AnMaster> lament, for example mixing all server messages in one tab
18:16:53 <AnMaster> hi ais523
18:16:56 <ais523> hi
18:17:08 <ehird> too many irssis here
18:17:10 <lament> AnMaster: yeah, but it's the best
18:17:22 <AnMaster> lament, or not handling more than +vho properly (many networks use +a and +q too, including some that I need)
18:17:35 <lament> oh, you're the fruit that's in 4000 channels
18:17:41 <lament> i guess you have special needs then
18:17:52 <AnMaster> lament, ... 561 atm...
18:17:55 <AnMaster> far from 4000
18:18:01 <FireFly> IS A LOT
18:18:05 <lament> and i guess irssi would kinda suck for switching between them
18:18:10 <Robdgreat> yes, I use IE 3 for irc
18:18:14 <ehird> lament: 'special needs'
18:18:16 <AnMaster> I use ERC in fact
18:18:43 <lament> but if you really don't like something in irssi, you should be able to just fix it
18:18:46 <AnMaster> http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ERC
18:18:48 <AnMaster> :)
18:18:54 <lament> as far as i understand it has very good code
18:19:51 <AnMaster> lament, there are some major design issues that you hit on a lot of other servers. It works fine on freenode and classical networks, But it has trouble dealing with networks using ircds like unrealircd, inspircd and so on
18:20:32 -!- Hiato has quit (Connection timed out).
18:20:49 <AnMaster> lament, it can't support more prefixes than +%@ and one additional one
18:20:55 <AnMaster> I'm on a network with two additional ones
18:21:10 <AnMaster> all listed in the 005 numeric
18:21:12 <AnMaster> of course
18:21:29 <AnMaster> PREFIX=(qaohv)~&@%+
18:22:39 <lament> i'm sure the network has perfectly valid reasons to need all of those
18:23:17 <AnMaster> lament, ? Is that your defense for why irssi should be hard coded to only support one extra?
18:23:34 <ehird> lament's right you know.
18:24:06 <AnMaster> ehird, well not my problem, for an end user it should just work whatever network I connect to. Also a lot of networks have that set of prefixes
18:24:45 <AnMaster> sadly unrealircd is the most common ircd (source: http://searchirc.com/ircd-versions), and it has those prefixes
18:25:24 <lament> i guess irssi does suck then :(
18:25:25 <AnMaster> personally I prefer InspIRCd. For which this is configurable
18:25:56 <AnMaster> lament, the irssi devs refuses to fix the issue.
18:26:02 <lament> makes sense
18:26:18 <AnMaster> lament, I even know someone (a good programmer) who wrote a patch to do it, and it got rejected.
18:26:20 <lament> is their argument similar to mine?
18:26:45 <pikhq> "The network has good reasons to need prefixes, so irssi shoudln't implement them"?
18:27:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, I think lament was being ironic there. Anyway fact is most networks out there use them. Not all but a clear majority
18:27:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: s/ironic/sarcastic/
18:27:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok.
18:27:54 <lament> I wasn't sarcastic. I was ironic.
18:28:17 <ehird> lament: oh the sarcasm
18:28:37 <lament> oh the irony!
18:42:21 -!- Hiato has joined.
18:44:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I just read about Finlandssvenska on wikipedia. Would you say "anden" (en:~the spirit) and "anden" (en:the duck) is pronounced the same way or differently?
18:45:45 <AnMaster> err not duck exactly. http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84nder
18:45:47 <AnMaster> that
18:46:51 <Deewiant> I don't know, I've never heard those pronounced :-P
18:47:42 <ehird> I invented a new fractal.
18:47:44 <AnMaster> http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandssvenska says they are the same in Finlandssvenska. They are almost the same in Swedish but not exactly.
18:47:51 <ehird> Well
18:47:53 <ehird> sort of fractal
18:48:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wp says the difference is http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonaccent . There is however no English interwiki link from it. No idea what it is called in English
18:49:44 <ehird> Specifically, I think it's a 1d fractal after infinity iterations
18:49:50 <fizzie> This bip-bouncer is a bit funny with version replies; if I CTCP myself I get one reply from it, and one reply from each connected client.
18:50:05 <fizzie> (I noticed someone had been versionifying around.)
18:50:11 <ehird> me
18:50:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you know about that thing?
18:50:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Either I can't tell the difference or I've just never heard a case where I could compare. The only examples being from Swedish, Norwegian, and Chinish doesn't help much. :-P
18:52:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Tomten (en-lit:the father xmas) vs. tomten (en:the area around a free standing house that belongs to the house owner (and includes the area the actual house is built on), forgot the word for it)
18:52:19 <AnMaster> they are pronounced differently
18:52:32 <fizzie> AnMaster: I wouldn't know such details. About "tonaccent", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_(linguistics)  is probably what you mean.
18:52:39 <Deewiant> The latter is fi:tontti btw
18:52:45 <fizzie> Chinese is a typical example of a language that heavily uses that stuff.
18:53:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: And yes, I saw the examples on the page, and my above statement still applies.
18:53:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah yes that was mentioned on the Swedish page too
18:53:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_phonology#Stress_and_pitch
18:53:42 <Deewiant> Ah, formel/formell. Now that's an obvious difference.
18:53:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that isn't the same as that
18:54:15 <Deewiant> I was just about to say that.
18:54:22 <oklofok> Deewiant you know chinese?
18:54:28 <Deewiant> oklofok: No, not at all.
18:54:36 <oklofok> oh
18:54:38 <oklofok> i see.
18:54:41 <AnMaster> nor do I
18:55:05 <oklofok> oh actually psygnisfive studied at least some of it iirc
18:55:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Find me a short video or sound bite where they have such a word pair so I can compare
18:55:23 <oklofok> psygnisfive: the shi shi poem, are there phonetic differences in the shi's or just tonal?
18:55:28 <fizzie> Me neither, but a study-mate-sort-of-person has been in China for a year or two now, he talks about the language every now and then.
18:55:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I could record it, though since I just ate some very sticky nougat it wouldn't be very clear....
18:55:50 <Deewiant> >_<
18:56:09 <oklofok> :P
18:56:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you can wait a few minutes I should be able to do it
18:56:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also what is a "sound bite"?
18:56:51 <oklofok> well you know like taking a really sound bite from a bread, one that definitely gets a piece off
18:56:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Asound%20bite
18:57:20 <oklofok> yeah that's another definition, but it's much less useful
18:57:45 <Deewiant> And much more correct. :-P
18:58:44 <oklofok> yeah right
19:02:15 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:05:50 <ehird> GOTO CONSIDERED PARMFUL
19:06:08 <oerjan> <AnMaster> sil ~ sieve, sill is a type of fish, don't remember the English name for it.
19:06:16 <oerjan> herring, red or otherwise
19:06:20 <AnMaster> ah
19:06:33 <ehird> oerjan: ITYM julesfish
19:06:35 <ehird> er gules
19:06:44 <oerjan> what is that
19:07:01 <AnMaster> never herd of it either
19:07:08 <oerjan> no bell rings on either of them
19:07:27 <oerjan> unless it's a horrible misspelling of lutefisk
19:07:35 <ais523> even I have no idea what ehird's talking about
19:07:42 <ehird> …………
19:07:44 <ehird> Dude.
19:07:48 <ehird> Rodger's puzzles?
19:07:50 <ehird> Remember?
19:07:52 <ehird> 2007?
19:07:54 <oerjan> no.
19:07:55 <ehird> GulesFish, Basil.tif?
19:08:03 <ehird> Duuudes whattt
19:08:07 <oerjan> that was eons ago
19:08:18 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat had a rather diabolical series of puzzles up on his website; GulesFish was one of them.
19:08:19 <ehird> yes.
19:08:20 <ehird> yes it was
19:08:24 <AnMaster> what?
19:08:27 <ehird> pikhq: what was basils' solution btw
19:08:29 <ehird> AnMaster: before your time
19:08:30 <ehird> move along
19:08:50 <pikhq> ehird: Take an image editor and play around with everything. I'm sure you'll find it eventually.
19:08:55 <oklofok> i remember gulesfish
19:08:59 <ehird> pikhq: the site is dead.
19:09:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, love iwc today
19:09:07 <pikhq> And you didn't keep Basil.tif?
19:09:32 <ehird> That was on the other machine; which died a peaceful death a few days ago.
19:09:42 <ais523> how did it die?
19:09:45 <oerjan> hm google actually found some of the logs for that
19:09:48 <pikhq> Alright, fine.
19:10:05 <oklofok> computers can die pieceful deaths?
19:10:09 <oklofok> ...
19:10:11 <oklofok> pieceful :D
19:10:12 <ehird> ais523: the motherboard is a shitty cheap one (I mean really cheap); it just stopped booting. It'd whirr, but no beep from the BIOS.
19:10:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: ah, but do you have a control sample?  maybe your love was a measure error.
19:10:29 <pikhq> Basil.tif had some text in the picture that was colored something like #FFFFFE against an #FFFFFF background.
19:10:32 <ehird> Parental overlords gave it to the local computer shop; they said the cost of replacing all the components would be the cost of a new PC.
19:10:33 <oklofok> that's what you get for starting to write a sentence, taking a sip of coke, and emptying the phonetic buffer
19:10:42 <ehird> pikhq: hahah
19:10:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, hehe
19:10:58 <oerjan> oklofok: i say they can, very easily
19:11:00 <pikhq> It also had a lot of weird stuff hidden in the .tif that was meant to throw you off.
19:11:23 <oerjan> *measuring
19:11:23 <ais523> ehird: does the hard drive still work?
19:11:30 <ais523> you should copy the data off it
19:11:30 <ehird> ais523: probably
19:11:36 <ehird> there's nothing there of value
19:11:39 <oklofok> hmm, actually i guess even in humans a "peaceful death" doesn't mean a slow fade into inexistance.
19:11:43 <ehird> Consider that I've rarely touched that machine since 2006
19:11:53 <oerjan> argh accelerating channel
19:12:02 <ais523> you may find that there's something there of value later
19:12:05 <ais523> and nostalgia's always fun
19:12:15 <pikhq> Eventually it will rival #wikipedia or #gentoo in chat volume.
19:12:17 <ehird> Yes, well, I was rather an idiot in 2006; the nostalgia is mostly cringes.
19:12:28 <AnMaster> err
19:12:34 <pikhq> >:D
19:12:34 * AnMaster tries to remember how to record
19:12:42 <lament> things haven't changed much in 3 years eh
19:12:43 <ehird> a peaceful death of a computer is where it slowly but surely gets less and less working (it was freezing up and messing up the display a lot a few days before) and then just stops :P
19:12:44 <AnMaster> arecord --obscure-commandline
19:12:49 <AnMaster> sigh
19:12:50 <ehird> lament: Fuck you :)
19:12:51 <ais523> AnMaster: ttyrec file.rec -e command
19:12:57 <AnMaster> ais523, sound...
19:12:59 <ais523> oh
19:13:05 <ais523> recording a terminal session's more fun
19:13:08 <oerjan> ais523: nostalgia isn't what it used to be
19:13:19 <ais523> oerjan: that joke's made far too often
19:13:22 <ais523> it's a cliche here in the UK
19:13:29 <AnMaster> ais523, useless for helping Deewiant understand how tomten and tomten are different in Swedish
19:13:37 <oerjan> ais523: don't complain about being the straight man
19:13:39 <ehird> My nostalgia is mostly for things that never happened; or will happen; or are happening presently—but never that happen to me.
19:13:42 <ehird> I'm rather bizarre.
19:14:09 <fizzie> Sox's "rec" tool is usually easier. Just "rec test.wav"; around here the defaults seem sensible enough (48 kHz, stereo, 16-bit; rather overkill but works).
19:14:20 <oerjan> ais523: but, you mean that joke was better before? *ducks*
19:14:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, don't have "sox"
19:14:34 <ehird> install it
19:14:39 <ehird> sox is a nice tool
19:14:47 <AnMaster> mhm
19:16:09 <ais523> well, I use timidity to generate sound files, although admittedly that's doing something completely different
19:16:19 <AnMaster> wth, *goes to kmix*
19:16:46 <fizzie> Audacity also has a record-it button, if you happen to have it and don't want to fiddle with a command line.
19:17:12 <ehird> ais523: what's up with your trend of "use this instead; it's in the same category as what you want to do but doesn't actually do it"
19:17:51 <ais523> ehird: I don't want to answer that question, is it OK if I answer an unrelated but completely different question instead?
19:17:57 <ais523> *related
19:17:59 <oerjan> ehird: ais523 may be becoming a true software engineer
19:18:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what formats can you handle?
19:18:02 <AnMaster> flac? ogg?
19:18:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Anything.
19:18:07 <ehird> ais523: Why don't you ask a question instead? It's the same type of thing, but different.
19:18:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, flac in ogg container then
19:18:12 <AnMaster> :D
19:18:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: Some might take that as a challenge.
19:18:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes me!
19:18:30 <oerjan> or even *shiver* a politician
19:18:34 <fizzie> Deewiant: Do you have the 3gpp AMR-WB/NB codecs both?
19:18:34 <ehird> FLAC in OGG is simple.
19:18:37 <ehird> Hardly a challenge.
19:18:38 <ais523> I challenge you to encode it in a 1-bit .wav
19:18:41 <AnMaster> ehird, oh
19:18:45 <ehird> it's not even uncommon
19:18:50 <ais523> in theory, even with a 1-bit encoding you can get the music to sound fine if the frequency's high enough
19:18:55 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Deewiant: Do you have the 3gpp AMR-WB/NB codecs both? <-- I don't have them
19:18:57 <Deewiant> fizzie: Beats me.
19:19:01 <AnMaster> afaik
19:19:03 <ais523> due to the slew rate of the speakerse
19:19:05 <ais523> *speakers
19:19:07 <oklofok> i can play all files that start playing when i double-click them
19:19:14 <AnMaster> what about raw?
19:19:23 <AnMaster> $ file tone.raw
19:19:23 <AnMaster> tone.raw: RIFF (little-endian) data, WAVE audio, Microsoft PCM, 16 bit, stereo 48000 Hz
19:19:25 <AnMaster> is that ok?
19:19:37 <AnMaster> just arecord -f dat
19:19:39 <fizzie> Also in practice, many A/D converters are technically speaking 1-bit, it's just that they have a high enough frequency. And then some stuff to get multi-bit values.
19:19:46 <Deewiant> Those weird speech-encoding codecs I probably don't have, actually.
19:20:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Isn't that a pain, since knowing the kind of data within is impossible, it can only be guessed?
19:20:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You'd make me write the WAV headers myself :-P
19:20:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, heh
19:21:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: You could write some pretty reliable heuristics, though.
19:21:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I just did flac --best tone.raw and it guessed it perfectly
19:21:27 <AnMaster> so I doubt you would have any issues.
19:21:34 <Deewiant> Oh, tools guess that.
19:21:48 <AnMaster> anyway: http://omploader.org/vMWU3Nw
19:21:55 <Deewiant> I assumed that they'd fail since it's just random bytes as far as they know
19:22:19 <fizzie> I assumed (given a .raw extension) that they'd just use some default values.
19:22:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, translation: "Do you believe in father xmas? The house is on the <forgot how this translates to English>"
19:22:27 <fizzie> It's nice if they actually intelligently guess.
19:22:31 <pikhq> AnMaster, if it's in a RIFF file, it's not raw. It has a header specifying the audio coding, the bits per sample, the channels, and the sampling frequency...
19:22:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah interesting
19:22:49 <AnMaster> well I don't really know this stuff
19:22:50 <pikhq> It is, in fact, a WAV file.
19:22:51 <pikhq> ;)
19:22:54 <AnMaster> interesting
19:23:30 <ehird> Safari plays it; so it's probably something common
19:23:33 <fizzie> Yes, if 'file' can dig up the information, it definitely isn't raw data. But a more audio-oriented tool could actually guess.
19:23:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah I should have used -t raw
19:23:45 <AnMaster> -t, --file-type TYPE    file type (voc, wav, raw or au)
19:23:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The main difference I can detect is the length of the pause before 'ten'
19:24:06 <Deewiant> Or it's not really a pause but I forget what it's properly called
19:24:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes thats it. And I'm trying to make it extra large in that example
19:24:29 <AnMaster> usually the difference is way smaller
19:25:06 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's a stop.
19:25:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Can you make one where you don't exaggerate it? I want to see if I can still notice it
19:25:27 <AnMaster> sure. And true raw this time?
19:26:02 <Deewiant> Preferably not, since Firefox was able to play that without me having to download it
19:26:06 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's also a 'plosive', if you want to sound like a more classier guy.
19:26:08 <AnMaster> what?
19:26:18 <AnMaster> I never had firefox play in the browser
19:26:23 <AnMaster> since when did it do that?
19:26:25 <Deewiant> fizzie: Plosive was actually what I was thinking of, cheers.
19:26:50 <AnMaster> oh even mplayer fails on raw
19:26:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Either it's because I have a different version or it's forwarding it to the mplayer plugin or whatever
19:26:53 <AnMaster> so I guess not raw
19:26:57 <ais523> AnMaster: cat it to /dev/audio
19:27:05 <ais523> IIRC, it uses raw
19:27:23 <AnMaster> ais523, that is noice
19:27:24 <AnMaster> noise*
19:27:46 <ais523> well, clearly you have the wrong bitwidth or rate or something
19:27:53 <AnMaster> probably
19:28:03 <fizzie> ais523: /dev/audio also uses mu-Law encoding of samples, not simple linear PCM.
19:28:17 <pikhq> ais523: /dev/dsp defaults to 8 bits per sample and some absurdly low frequency, and /dev/audio uses mu-Law.
19:28:18 <ais523> ah, I didn't know that
19:28:31 <ais523> and /dev/dsp? I didn't know of that one
19:28:48 <fizzie> /dev/dsp does 8 kHz, 8-bit single-channel by default, I think.
19:28:58 <pikhq> Yeah, that sounds right.
19:29:24 <AnMaster> lets see
19:29:44 <AnMaster> http://omploader.org/vMWU3YQ
19:29:48 <AnMaster> flac this time
19:29:57 <Deewiant> That goes to mplayer
19:30:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for me both show download dialogs
19:30:43 <Deewiant> The other one shows nothing but plays on every refresh
19:30:48 <fizzie> /dev/audio does µ-law encoding because that's what Sun used, and I guess that's where it's from, or at least part of the line of descent.
19:30:56 <AnMaster> heh
19:31:06 <fizzie> Firefox itself won't play anything, so the behaviour depends on the plugins.
19:31:14 <AnMaster> ah
19:31:36 <fizzie> At work there's some sort of Gnome totem (media player) plugin installed, and it almost never does anything useful.
19:31:38 <Deewiant> fizzie: Are you sure 3.1 (since 3.5) won't?
19:31:42 <fizzie> But it often tries.
19:31:49 <Deewiant> They have <audio> support, after all
19:31:57 <fizzie> Well, I don't know about 3.1. But you could check about:plugins anyway.
19:32:11 <Deewiant> And what MIME type should I look for?
19:32:11 <ais523> fizzie: totem works pretty well IME
19:32:53 <fizzie> Deewiant: Whatever the file was. I'm not sure if they have registered audio/wav, or whether it should be audio/x-wav.
19:32:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Anyhoo, I can still notice the difference here but I doubt I could determine which one was said if I heard only one of them
19:33:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, most Swedes won't notice it unless you say them with swapped contexts
19:33:41 <Deewiant> fizzie: audio/x-wav evidently, goes to MPlayer's WMP plugin
19:34:03 <fizzie> ais523: Well, to be honest I've only tried the version at work just once, and it didn't work. And the separate player has worked well enough, it's just the plugin that has issues.
19:34:05 <Deewiant> Amusing that it doesn't show any play controls
19:34:05 <AnMaster> I can hear it if it is the wrong one for what I expect from the context
19:34:09 <ehird> http://lwn.net/Articles/323966/
19:34:12 <ehird> RIP Tux
19:34:18 <ais523> fizzie: ah, I use the separate player
19:34:43 <ais523> although the embedded one seems to work fine for videos on Wikimedia
19:34:55 <AnMaster> ehird, w t h
19:35:07 <ehird> AnMaster: it'll just be for one release :P
19:35:11 <AnMaster> ah
19:35:38 <oerjan> På tomten var en liten hytta...
19:36:03 <ehird> This one is standing in for Tux for one release using the far less-known
19:36:03 <ehird> Devil Facial Tux Disguise.
19:36:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, i vilken tomten levde?
19:36:47 <ehird> http://shanalogic.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads2/1095000_25tas_devil.jpg <-- wait, tasmanian devils are cute? when did this happen?
19:36:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: no no, didn't you notice my accent
19:37:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is hard over IRC
19:37:10 <oerjan> the poor guy had a hut on him
19:37:18 <AnMaster> OIC
19:37:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, like the hermit elephant?
19:38:04 <oerjan> i didn't know there were hermit elephants.  hermit crabs on the other hand...
19:38:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw "hytta" sounds very weird in Swedish. It is used in place names but I would probably say "stuga" instead normally
19:38:57 <oerjan> hm right
19:39:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, hermit elephants are iirc found in Howondaland
19:39:16 <oerjan> it's the opposite in norwegian, in modern times
19:39:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh "stuga" sounds archaic there?
19:39:49 <oerjan> figured it had to be pratchett :D
19:39:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, haha
19:40:15 <oerjan> "stue" mostly means "living room" nowadays
19:40:38 <oerjan> but _can_ also mean old cottage
19:40:44 <oerjan> which is sort of archaic
19:40:45 <ehird> regarding pratchett, I've embarked on a most silly quest to read every single discworld book in close succession. in order.
19:40:52 <ehird> i do not expect to finish it
19:41:32 <pikhq> Probably simpler to read all the fiction that Asimov wrote. :p
19:41:34 <AnMaster> ehird, done that once. About one book / day
19:41:38 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
19:41:59 <ehird> I only read for an hour or so at a time, so it takes me 2-3 days to read one.
19:42:08 <oklofok> :|
19:42:11 <AnMaster> up to Thief of time iirc, didn't have more books then
19:42:18 <oklofok> how short are they / how fast are you? 8|
19:42:29 <AnMaster> ehird, Well with "day" I mean "evening-night"
19:42:33 <AnMaster> ;P
19:42:36 <ehird> oklofok: err I'm not sure how long they are
19:42:39 * AnMaster likes reading in bed
19:42:44 <ehird> not, like
19:42:45 <ehird> really long
19:42:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: while just about every other norwegian has a "hytte" for vacationing in
19:42:56 <pikhq> Book a day isn't too hard to do. Probably not going to be doing *that* much else with your free time, but other than that, not too hard to do.
19:43:00 <ehird> oklofok: i do read quite fast though.
19:43:00 <AnMaster> ehird, the books? Latter ones are thicker though
19:43:06 <ehird> like one page per 20 seconds or sth.
19:43:10 <oklofok> pikhq: how's 2 hours tho?
19:43:16 <AnMaster> like two or three times as thick
19:43:17 <ehird> my brain sort of parses the words into memory
19:43:18 <oklofok> ehird: ah, well that's really fast.
19:43:20 <ehird> then groks the gist of it
19:43:23 <ehird> and then, as I continue reading
19:43:25 <oklofok> i used to be like that
19:43:28 <pikhq> If the book is short enough, 2 hours, sure.
19:43:29 <ehird> processes the fine details
19:43:33 <ehird> so it takes about 2 pages to process 1 page
19:43:35 <pikhq> ehird: That's rather fast.
19:43:43 <oklofok> then i stopped reading fiction
19:43:44 <ehird> pikhq: yes, quite.
19:43:57 <AnMaster> oklofok, what did you start doing instead?
19:44:02 * pikhq reads between 30 seconds a page to a minute per page, depending on how much processing needs to be done...
19:44:09 <oklofok> AnMaster: reading other stuff.
19:44:13 <pikhq> Tolkien might be slower.
19:44:14 <AnMaster> ah
19:44:39 <ehird> AnMaster: how long are the earlier discworld books, on average? you seem like the type to know that
19:44:43 <oklofok> for instance object-oriented software engineering if i can get myself to leave the disputer
19:44:46 <AnMaster> ehird, hm would you say "Nation" is way slower than "Colour of magic"?
19:44:55 <AnMaster> the first one isn't discworld indeed
19:44:58 <ehird> I have not read it.
19:45:00 <AnMaster> but both are TP
19:45:01 <AnMaster> ah
19:45:14 <AnMaster> ehird, want me to check?
19:45:21 <ehird> sure
19:46:12 <AnMaster> ehird, checked the first five, between 280 and 310 pages
19:46:21 <ehird> righty then
19:46:22 <AnMaster> that is paper back editions
19:46:24 <ehird> that'd fit in with my measurements
19:46:37 <ehird> of reading time that is.
19:46:38 <oklofok> err hmm
19:46:54 <oklofok> actually iirc i've measured about 18 seconds / page
19:46:57 <ehird> I'm taking a detour from my readathon to read all of h2g2 and G.E.B. again, though; because those are the two longest books I own.
19:47:01 <oklofok> for my speed, but that was a small booker
19:47:05 <ehird> oklofok: did you actually read it :P
19:47:10 <AnMaster> ehird, my copy of "wintersmith" is nearly 400 pages
19:47:14 <oklofok> yes, entirely through in one sitting
19:47:18 <oklofok> oh you mean
19:47:23 <oklofok> yeah
19:47:57 <AnMaster> ehird, Science of Discworld III is ~340 pages in *small print*
19:48:21 <Deewiant> Not that small IIRC
19:48:33 <ehird> G.E.B. is a big size and the text is small, and it's 777 pages
19:48:38 <ehird> It is quite the rambly book.
19:48:50 <AnMaster> Monsterous Regiment (paper back): 494 pages
19:48:51 <oklofok> ehird: but i was actually trying to read fast, that's why i measured; i don't read nearly that fast usually
19:48:56 <oerjan> well but it's mostly rambling about itself
19:48:59 <AnMaster> normal type size
19:49:51 <oklofok> we had this course in high school where we had to read like 8 books, most either read them throughout the year or didn't read them at all
19:49:53 <AnMaster> ehird, note that the physical dimensions of the books apart from thickness differs between paper back and hard cover
19:50:00 <oklofok> i decided to read them the week before exam
19:50:06 <oklofok> or maybe two but anyway
19:50:21 <ehird> speaking of which, who's read G.E.B. here? ISTR ais523 and fizzie have; probably oklofok too. Anyway, does _anyone_ actually understand the last dialogue? :P
19:50:21 <oklofok> so i was kindof in a reading streak
19:50:23 <AnMaster> the hard cover ones is about 25% taller. and 20% wider
19:50:28 <AnMaster> are*
19:50:32 <ehird> well mebbe not oklofok
19:50:38 <fizzie> I haven't; I've always just meant to.
19:50:40 <Deewiant> What was the last dialog?
19:50:42 * oerjan hasn't read most of it
19:50:51 <ehird> Deewiant: Ricercar or something
19:51:01 <oklofok> i haven't read it, for some reason i thought i'd order it from amazon, but then for some reason i didn't
19:51:03 <ehird> I forget the name
19:53:31 <lament> I've read the first third or so
19:53:33 <lament> of GEB
19:54:15 <AnMaster> is it hard to read or?
19:54:30 <ehird> AnMaster: no; it's rather easy
19:54:39 <ehird> but... sort of tedious
19:54:42 <ehird> not because it's repetitive
19:54:45 <ehird> but there's just so much of it
19:54:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway Science of Discworld you can't read as fast. You often have to stop and think about things.
19:55:01 <ehird> at the end your brains splurge out in the shape of the letters "GEB".
19:55:10 <AnMaster> ehird, how fast did you read Science of Discworld?
19:55:15 <ehird> AnMaster: Mu.
19:55:22 <AnMaster> ?
19:55:32 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(negative)
19:55:49 <lament> life is too short to read GEB
19:55:57 <ehird> GEB is too short to read life
19:57:02 <AnMaster> http://code.google.com/p/google-thingbrowser/ <-- awesome project name
19:57:12 <ehird> Mung.
19:58:12 <AnMaster> ehird, as in mung in TECO?
19:58:24 <ehird> No; mung as in Mung Until No Good.
19:58:40 <AnMaster> ehird, the TECO meaning is based on that
19:58:45 <ehird> Yes. Yes it is.
20:02:41 -!- comexk has changed nick to comex.
20:02:59 <ehird> comex, k?
20:03:31 <psygnisfive> oklofok
20:03:37 <psygnisfive> the shi shi poem has only tonal differences.
20:04:02 <psygnisfive> phonologically, anyway. i have no idea if there are phonetic differences. but that doesn't matter.
20:04:21 <oklofok> hmm "doesn't matter" in what sense?
20:04:36 <oerjan> psygnisfive: is this a chinese poem that goes like "shi shi shi shi shi shi. shi shi, shi shi shi..." ?
20:04:39 <oklofok> (i don't know what those terms mean)
20:04:47 <ehird> oerjan: yes
20:04:50 <psygnisfive> doesnt matter in that chinese people cant hear the differences.
20:04:53 <oklofok> (phonetic vs phonological)
20:05:06 <psygnisfive> phonetics is what the waves in the air do
20:05:13 <psygnisfive> e.g. the hard sounds out in the world
20:05:13 <oklofok> ah right.
20:05:22 <psygnisfive> phonology is the sounds in the mind.
20:05:30 <oklofok> yes i gets it now.
20:05:45 <psygnisfive> the difference between "grabbing a cup" and "how i grabbed a cup two minutes ago"
20:06:10 <oerjan> ah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-Eating_Poet_in_the_Stone_Den
20:06:33 <ehird> AnMaster: clang can compile Blender
20:06:39 <psygnisfive> clang?
20:06:41 <psygnisfive> clangers!
20:06:46 <AnMaster> ehird, nice!
20:06:47 <ais523> and at least one of the BSDs, I forget which
20:06:50 <oerjan> noisy programmers!
20:06:51 <lament> er, of course they're phonetic
20:06:53 <ehird> AnMaster:
20:06:53 <ehird> I tried building Blender with clang today for fun. Went without a hitch,
20:06:54 <ehird> although I had to use gcc for two files from ffmpeg with nasty inline asm.
20:06:54 <ais523> I wonder if it can do C-INTERCAL?
20:06:56 <AnMaster> ehird, and it can compile cfunge now
20:06:57 <ehird> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/cfe-dev/2009-March/004610.html
20:07:05 <ehird> it does have some artifacts, apparently
20:07:15 <ehird> but I imagine that's blender relying on gcc behaviour
20:08:12 <AnMaster> mhm
20:08:16 <AnMaster> ehird, quite possible
20:08:40 <AnMaster> ehird, odd they end as close to correct as that
20:08:44 <ehird> yes
20:09:31 <ehird> ah, a lot of them seem to be floating point inaccuracies
20:09:36 <AnMaster> ehird, 30% slower at compo_map_uv_cubes ?
20:09:39 <ehird> possibly due to optimization reordering them causing inaccuracy
20:09:53 <ehird> anyway, I think I'll install llvm & clang
20:09:57 <AnMaster> ehird, you can't optimise floating point. See C99 spec.
20:09:58 <ehird> and use them instead of gcc.
20:10:00 <ehird> Maybe. :P
20:10:04 <AnMaster> there are a few safe transformation
20:10:07 <AnMaster> s
20:10:10 <AnMaster> but that is it
20:10:17 <ehird> AnMaster: specs don't really matter if nothing non-pathological relies on the behaviour
20:10:30 <AnMaster> ehird, hm?
20:10:46 <ehird> as in, if the optimizations don't change behaviour on real world code
20:11:46 <Deewiant> Then such code will eventually appear
20:12:31 <AnMaster> ehird, clang can't handle inline asm?
20:12:43 <AnMaster> mhm
20:12:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
20:12:49 <ehird> who said that
20:12:56 <ehird> the post implied _gnarly_ inline asm to me
20:13:06 <AnMaster> ah right
20:13:49 <ehird> http://www.jwz.org/doc/threading.html <- I love how _difficult_ this is.
20:15:10 -!- Hiato1 has joined.
20:16:56 -!- Hiato1 has quit (Client Quit).
20:22:06 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:26:11 <AnMaster> <ais523> I wonder if it can do C-INTERCAL? <-- I tried that iirc. Think it worked but had some issues with linking. So build system issues
20:26:26 <AnMaster> used manual commands to work around it
20:26:33 <AnMaster> mostly related to handling of *.a
20:26:37 <fizzie> I keep writing "befun" instead of "begin" in LaTeX files.
20:26:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, :D
20:27:06 <ehird> I feel like I'm getting myself into things I shouldn't by writing my own mail client.
20:27:32 <AnMaster> ehird, why are you doing that?
20:27:34 <fizzie> "There are things man was not meant to know" sort of things?
20:28:07 <fizzie> Eldritch horrors with non-euclidean geometry?
20:28:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Because, at the present time, no desktop mail client reaches the level of usability that Gmail gives, apart from maybe sup (http://sup.rubyforge.org/)—and I want a gooey client.
20:28:20 <ehird> fizzie: Yes, non-euclidean geometry of handling mail.
20:28:56 <AnMaster> sup looks nice
20:29:00 -!- Hiato has joined.
20:29:13 <AnMaster> ehird, also I hope you will release this mail client of all
20:29:13 <ehird> It is. My only qualms with it are threefold:
20:29:22 <AnMaster> to*
20:29:46 <ehird> 1. It's a console client. 2. When you view a heavily-nested thread, you hit l/-> a lot to get it in view. 3. It doesn't react too well with other IMAP clients (it doesn't store its label state)
20:29:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, it will be open source.
20:30:04 <AnMaster> ehird, and portable to Linux?
20:30:20 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit).
20:30:55 <ehird> The program itself should be portable, but for the interface, I'm probably going to make a linear console interface (ala mail(1)) and a Cocoa one; and the former only to test it while engaging in the big task of the latter.
20:31:08 <ehird> I may write a GTK/Qt interface if I feel like it sometime; or someone else could.
20:31:20 <AnMaster> ehird, what about wxwidgets?
20:31:36 <Deewiant> Will it handle NNTP as well?
20:31:43 <fizzie> Will it make coffee?
20:31:49 <Deewiant> What about tea?
20:31:52 <ehird> What does wxwidgets buy me? On OS X, it look and feels awkward (like "almost but not quite"). On Linux, it uses GTK. On Windows, I don't care.
20:31:52 <AnMaster> will it handle qmail style maildirs?
20:31:56 <fizzie> Is the kitchen sink included?
20:31:57 <AnMaster> and what about juice?
20:32:10 <ehird> Deewiant: fizzie: It will include a Cybernetics Corporation Nutri-Drink machine thingy.
20:32:23 <AnMaster> ehird, what about qmail style maildirs?
20:32:24 <ehird> For NNTP, couldn't you just use a NNTP<->mail gateway?
20:32:33 <ehird> AnMaster: It will probably store as one of them internally.
20:32:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean could it fetch from the local mail daemon using them
20:32:53 <fizzie> Nutri-Matic, I guess you mean. Which means it won't really make tea. Share and enjoy.
20:32:54 <AnMaster> and what about postfix style ones
20:32:57 <ehird> Yes, it'd just be a matter of 'cp' or whatever.
20:33:01 <ehird> As for postfix, dunno.
20:33:19 <AnMaster> ehird, /var/spool/mail/ ones iirc
20:33:23 <ehird> My main priority is IMAP+SSL and SMTP; although adding in sendmail/whatever support would be ubertrivial, since _sending_ mail is trivial.
20:33:28 <AnMaster> ehird, maildirs need locking
20:33:31 <AnMaster> so not as simple
20:33:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, yes.
20:33:52 <AnMaster> ehird, ETA?
20:33:54 <ehird> fizzie: kitchen sink—please see Mozilla's implementation.
20:33:54 <AnMaster> ;)
20:34:07 <ehird> AnMaster: (unsigned long)-1
20:34:12 <AnMaster> ouch
20:34:25 <AnMaster> ehird, in seconds?
20:34:33 <ehird> eons
20:34:38 <AnMaster> oh ok
20:34:47 <ehird> where a year is 1, eons are (unsigned long)-1
20:34:53 <ehird> err
20:34:57 <ehird> year = 1, decade = 2
20:34:58 <ehird> century = 3
20:34:59 <ehird> etc
20:35:53 <ehird> Did you all know, by the way, that IMAP is horrific?
20:36:05 <ehird> Get this: You can only be in one folder at a time. Want to operate on another folder? You have to do the equivalent of cd.
20:36:19 <AnMaster> heh
20:36:22 <ehird> So if you're putting together data from many folders: cd, operation, cd, operation, operation, cd, operation.
20:36:22 <ehird> Oh the joy.
20:37:05 <lament> use gmail
20:37:59 <ehird> lament: I do but 1) google has enough of my data 2) it is, and always will be, less sleek and efficient than a desktop app 3) it's slow because of interwebs 4) it doesn't do quoting right and stuff.
20:39:59 <ehird> also, I didn't write it
20:40:10 <AnMaster> NIH is always the best reason
20:40:12 <AnMaster> for anything
20:40:22 <lament> AnMaster: I disagree. NIH.
20:40:25 <ehird> yeah I got stuck at inventing something better than electricity
20:40:36 <AnMaster> ehird, better how?
20:40:49 <ehird> AnMaster: in that i made it
20:40:51 <AnMaster> ah
20:41:04 <AnMaster> ehird, that is wrong though
20:41:14 <AnMaster> ehird, electricity wasn't invented. It was discovered.
20:41:18 <AnMaster> NIH doesn't apply then
20:41:22 <ehird> fuck that.
20:41:30 <ehird> i doubt anyone engineered windows anyway
20:41:36 <ehird> its' shit enough that it was probably discovered
20:41:38 <ehird> does nih apply to it? yes.
20:41:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I doubt windows was discovered.
20:41:46 <oklofok> yeah it was found in an alien spaceship
20:41:56 <ehird> oklofok: it's their plan to wipe out humanity
20:42:00 <oklofok> yep
20:43:35 <ehird> also, my goal to have compatibility with the iphone's mail client is a bit irritating. since i want labels/tags, not folders (they're a superset, anyway) but it only does imap folders.
20:43:37 <ehird> graw.
20:43:40 <ehird> :(
20:44:32 <AnMaster> ehird, you have an iphone?
20:44:38 <ehird> yes
20:45:10 <ehird> i have no excuse either :)
20:45:45 <oklofok> more like youphone xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
20:45:54 <ehird> oh comedy
20:46:05 <ehird> i get the feeling AnMaster is speechless
20:46:12 <AnMaster> ?
20:46:13 <oklofok> he probably died of laughter
20:46:17 <AnMaster> no I was debugging
20:46:21 <ehird> SAME THING.
20:46:23 <oklofok> or well, will die after i explain it
20:46:28 <AnMaster> didn't see until you highlighted me
20:46:40 <AnMaster> oklofok, hah
20:46:46 <ehird> oklofok: xD
20:47:02 <oklofok> me: :D
20:47:10 <AnMaster> this is a reference it can view youtube but no other flash right?
20:47:25 <oklofok> ...yes that's what i was referring to
20:47:29 <ehird> AnMaster: ermmmmmmmmmmmmm
20:47:31 <oklofok> :DD
20:47:32 <ehird> nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
20:47:33 <ehird> wellllll
20:47:34 <ehird> errrr
20:47:35 <ehird> yy
20:47:37 <ehird> but erm
20:47:39 <ehird> mmma
20:47:39 <FireFly> Reminds me of a certain Monty Python sketch
20:47:42 <ehird> errrrrr, I mean, um, er
20:47:43 <ehird> AnMaster: no.
20:47:48 <AnMaster> ehird, no?
20:47:52 <ehird> no.
20:47:56 <AnMaster> what was it then?
20:48:01 <oklofok> okay i'm lolling my ass off here
20:48:09 <ehird> AnMaster: s/i/you/; comedy ensues.
20:48:15 <AnMaster> oh
20:48:16 <AnMaster> that too
20:48:17 <AnMaster> right
20:48:19 <oklofok> :P
20:48:23 <ehird> oklofok: i know, funniest thing AnMaster has ever said :D
20:48:31 <AnMaster> what?
20:48:35 <AnMaster> I wasn't trying to be funny!
20:48:50 * AnMaster goes back reading objdump output
20:48:51 <ehird> AnMaster: but you were
20:49:02 <ehird> keep trying to be unintentionally funny!
20:49:09 <AnMaster>  805c39c:       0f 49 85 68 fd ff ff    cmovns -0x298(%ebp),%eax
20:49:09 <AnMaster>  805c3f5:       0f 49 b5 68 fd ff ff    cmovns -0x298(%ebp),%esi
20:49:09 <AnMaster>  805c43e:       0f 49 9d 68 fd ff ff    cmovns -0x298(%ebp),%ebx
20:49:09 <AnMaster>  805c497:       0f 49 85 68 fd ff ff    cmovns -0x298(%ebp),%eax
20:49:16 <AnMaster> interesting
20:51:28 <fizzie> Here's Lynx applied to this one article that's not available to me directly since I'm not in the university network: "View the MathML source, where the unit vector u is defined as View the MathML source." That's not helpful.
20:51:41 <AnMaster> wow icc turns a lot more branches into CMOVcc than GCC. That's interesting
20:51:55 <AnMaster> this was optimising for Pentium 3
20:52:03 <ehird> well, icc is more optimizey than gcc...
20:52:10 <ehird> fizzie: :D
20:52:48 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on your target. On AMD CPUs GCC compiled programs are on average 15%-25% faster than ICC compiled ones.
20:53:10 <ehird> AnMaster: and, get this, gcc compiled programs don't even run on a nintendo 64
20:53:12 <ais523> fizzie: sounds like the authors muddled alt and title
20:53:14 <ais523> and only IE does that
20:53:22 <ehird> icc is an optimizer for _intel_... :P
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20:53:33 <AnMaster> ehird, err you can make them do that iirc
20:53:41 <AnMaster> I think gcc supports that architecture
20:53:48 <AnMaster> as a cross compiler
20:53:56 <ehird> not the point
20:54:00 <ehird> also, that'd be hideously slow :P
20:54:34 <AnMaster> ehird, why?
20:54:50 <ehird> The nintendo 64 is slow
20:54:53 <ehird> although, well
20:54:56 <AnMaster> well yes
20:55:01 <AnMaster> by today's standards yes
20:55:02 <ehird> maybe it's fast enough to make coding games in C for it viable
20:55:03 <ehird> not sure
20:55:03 <fizzie> ais523: The document source has all math equations as: <img src="..." alt="View the MathML source" title="View the MathML source" ... />
20:55:11 <ehird> gcc can compile for the NES, though, can't it?
20:55:14 <AnMaster> ehird, once upon a time it was fast
20:55:14 <ehird> _that's_ certainly useless
20:55:18 <AnMaster> ehird, it can?
20:55:18 <ais523> fizzie: ok, that's even sillier
20:55:24 <ehird> i think so, AnMaster
20:55:32 <ais523> I'd say lynx is behaving completely sensibly, and the document is being ridiculousy
20:55:38 <ehird> ais523: err, the document is reasonable
20:55:42 <ehird> apart from the title="" stuff
20:55:47 <ehird> you don't have images, so you cant' see the rendered images
20:55:50 <ehird> so you have to view the mathml source
20:56:01 <ehird> it would be better in [brackets] to offset it from the surrounding text though
20:56:05 <ais523> the title= should /be/ the MathML source
20:56:10 <ehird> ais523: err, that's XML
20:56:13 <ais523> rather than just saying "View the MathML source"
20:56:19 <ais523> ehird: well, it would be more readable...
20:56:19 <ehird> MathML is hideously verbose
20:56:21 <ehird> and XML
20:56:25 <ehird> you'd need many-line tooltips
20:56:34 <ehird> ais523: the image is a link to the source
20:56:35 <ehird> duh
20:56:44 <ehird> in fact, the title="" makes senes then
20:56:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I was just talking about the CPU architecture. I mean the n64 is MIPS based iirc
20:56:52 <ehird> in a "you'll get this when you click" way, which is what title is for
20:57:00 <ais523> ah, well at least the alt is wrong
20:57:06 <ehird> is it?
20:57:13 <ehird> you can't view the equation so you have to view the mathml source to see it
20:57:16 <ehird> that seems reasonable to me
20:57:17 <ais523> alt is the text that displays in browsers that can't show the image
20:57:21 <ehird> yes
20:57:25 <ehird> so the alternative is to view the source
20:57:27 <ehird> to read the equation
20:57:28 <ais523> and "View the MathML source" is not sensible text for that situation
20:57:34 <ais523> it should be something like "MathML equation
20:57:36 <ais523> *"
20:58:22 <ais523> hmm... Ubuntu's repos have only llvm-gcc, not clang
20:58:51 <AnMaster> ais523, not odd
20:58:56 <AnMaster> clang hasn't been released yet
20:59:01 <AnMaster> you need to check it out from svn
20:59:12 <AnMaster> matching llvm revision recommended
21:01:02 <AnMaster> 124K    build_clang/cfunge
21:01:02 <AnMaster> 120K    build_gcc/cfunge
21:01:02 <AnMaster> 1,2M    build_icc/cfunge
21:01:02 <AnMaster> 112K    build_llvm-gcc/cfunge
21:01:02 <AnMaster> 200K    build_open64/cfunge
21:01:12 <AnMaster> all have been stripped
21:01:23 <AnMaster> interesting the icc one is so large
21:01:27 <AnMaster> it really stands out there
21:02:00 <fizzie> The , in the 1,2 really stands out, too.
21:02:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, l10n
21:02:19 <AnMaster> so not really
21:02:30 <fizzie> Yes, the dreaded el-ten-en.
21:02:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, "dreaded"?
21:02:45 <ehird> crazy europeans and their 1.000.000,34
21:02:57 <AnMaster> ehird, you are European...
21:03:07 <Deewiant> I have a custom LC_NUMERIC because no existing locale does it smartly
21:03:07 <ehird> UK hardly counts as european :P
21:03:13 <AnMaster> also in Swedish it is 1 000 000,34
21:03:16 <AnMaster> not .
21:03:20 <Deewiant> ehird: You should have said 'continental'.
21:03:22 <fizzie> Deewiant: Can you define "smartly" for us.
21:03:23 <ehird> AnMaster: wow, good luck parsing that
21:03:28 <Deewiant> fizzie: 1 000 000.34
21:03:34 <AnMaster> ehird, a Swede manages it fine
21:03:35 <AnMaster> :P
21:03:38 <ehird> THAT's smartly, Deewiant?
21:03:44 <Deewiant> Yes, it is.
21:03:51 <ehird> AnMaster: a swede is not powerful enough to be considered a computer. sorry.
21:04:00 <ehird> being dirty and all
21:04:05 <AnMaster> ehird, a Swede can parse something a computer can't
21:04:19 <ehird> yeah, such disgrace is above turing machines, see.
21:04:21 <AnMaster> thus Swedes are super-sub-tc
21:04:44 <fizzie> A Swede can parse the power of LOVE. (Wasn't there a discussion here earlier? I mostly missed it, though.)
21:04:48 <AnMaster> since computers are sub-tc, and a Swede is better than a computer a Swede ends up as super-sub-tc right?
21:04:54 <AnMaster> FireFly, err?
21:04:55 <AnMaster> err
21:04:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, err?
21:05:05 <fizzie> To err is human.
21:05:17 <ehird> fizzie: I said that LOVE thang.
21:05:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, what do you mean "parse the power of LOVE"?
21:05:27 <ehird> AnMaster: read yesterday's logs.
21:05:35 <fizzie> Yes, there was some nightly discussion.
21:05:42 <AnMaster> mhm
21:06:55 * ais523 builds C-INTERCAL with llvm-gcc
21:07:06 <ehird> llvm-gcc?
21:07:08 <ehird> how borin
21:07:08 <ehird> g
21:07:15 <ais523> I don't have clang over here
21:07:20 <ais523> and amazingly, it failed due to the lack of ranlib
21:07:59 <ais523> must be an error in my part of the build scripts, let me find it
21:08:08 <AnMaster> anyone remembers Rambus btw?
21:08:22 <ehird> ais523: why do you use autotools
21:08:38 <AnMaster> ais523, use llvm-ranlib
21:08:42 <ais523> yes, I know
21:08:50 <ais523> ehird: because it works and is crazily portable
21:08:56 <AnMaster> ais523, and modern systems doesn't need ranlib, just llvm-ar is enough
21:09:01 <ais523> you should have seen what the build system was like beforehand
21:09:15 <AnMaster> tell me
21:09:19 <ehird> 1) Some new definition of works I was not previously etc 2) You could achieve that by hand 3) I did; it worked well
21:09:42 <ais523> AnMaster: strange, the makefile appears to run ranlib, yet I got an error that it wasn't used
21:09:52 <ehird> by the way how does __builtin_expect work?
21:09:59 <AnMaster> ehird, read GCC manual
21:10:24 <ehird> AnMaster: no; I'm asking for a one sentence summary, not the useless page-long splurge the gcc manual would give
21:10:26 <AnMaster> ehird, section 5.49 for GCC 4.3.3
21:10:41 <ais523> ok, that's really strange
21:10:42 <ais523> it ran ranlib
21:10:49 <ais523> but I got an error message for it not having been used
21:11:09 <AnMaster> ais523, llvm-ranlib is differen't. You can use system *.a for llvm but not the reverse
21:11:15 <AnMaster> different*
21:11:45 <ais523> AnMaster: not really, this was all with llvm-tools
21:11:57 <ais523> llvm-ar cru libidiot.a oilout*.o
21:11:58 <ais523> llvm-ranlib libidiot.a
21:12:07 <AnMaster> ais523, what about when you got the error
21:12:08 <ais523> (later) libidiot.a: could not read symbols: Archive has no index; run ranlib to add one
21:12:10 <AnMaster> what tool was used then
21:12:12 <AnMaster> ..
21:12:21 <ehird> why do you say ..
21:12:22 <ehird> what does it mean
21:12:25 <ais523> and llvm-gcc, with command line telling it to run the linker
21:12:39 <AnMaster> ais523, is this clang or llvm-gcc?
21:12:48 <ais523> llvm-gcc, as I said in my last comment
21:12:50 <AnMaster> ah
21:12:53 <AnMaster> you said clang before
21:12:58 <ais523> no I didn't
21:13:11 <AnMaster> oh you said you didn't have it
21:13:13 <AnMaster> right
21:13:25 <AnMaster> ais523, well I got that to build. Don't remember how.
21:13:32 <AnMaster> ais523, make sure linker is llvm-ld nothing else?
21:14:16 <ais523> just checked, it's calling /usr/lib/llvm/gcc-4.2/libexec/gcc/i486-linux-gnu/4.2.1/collect2
21:14:35 <AnMaster> ais523, what about using llvm-ld instead of llvm-gcc to link?
21:15:12 <ais523> that doesn't work in some cases, that's why collect2's used in the first place
21:15:15 <ais523> it's a wrapper around ld
21:16:20 <ais523> hmm... it seems to be a problem with Ubuntu's packaging
21:16:29 <ais523> llvm collect2 is calling the non-llvm ld
21:16:46 <ehird> bsdgames are so awesome
21:16:51 * ais523 agrees with ehird
21:17:54 <ehird> now how did I get them running on os x before...
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21:20:28 <fizzie> Freggling "FUSE-sshfs access of a NFS-mounted drive on computer A for editing, direct NFS access on computer B for latexing" stupidities: "ls: cannot access robusemi.tex: Stale NFS file handle"
21:22:37 <AnMaster> ehird, "make && make install"?
21:22:41 <AnMaster> that works even on linux
21:22:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, fun
21:23:02 <ehird> AnMaster: I distinctly recall giving a one-line package manager incantation.
21:23:13 <AnMaster> ehird, then macports?
21:23:18 <fizzie> Every now and then when I save, the NFS handle goes stale, whatever it means.
21:23:22 <ehird> No relevant package that I can find, AnMaster
21:23:27 <AnMaster> ehird, hrrm
21:26:35 <oklofok> ehird: may have been 28
21:26:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, does this help: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-networking-3/stale-nfs-file-handle-232901/?s=aca8d27dc9803e741b39ddcf2a2144ed ?
21:26:38 <oklofok> ->
21:26:46 <ehird> oklofok: wat
21:27:37 <oklofok> err
21:27:44 <oklofok> i thought it was rather obvious
21:27:49 <ehird> no?
21:27:53 <ehird> what?
21:28:35 <oklofok> i prefer you having to either figure out yourself or drop it.
21:30:25 <fizzie> AnMaster: Uh, I can't access the NFS server at all, so I'm not really about to debug it. It automagically fixes itself in a dozen seconds every time after it happens, it's just an annoyance.
21:31:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, using only one client at at time would also help I think
21:31:44 <fizzie> Probably, yes. I'm not really sure why I don't use the vim "locally" on the computer I'm running latex on; it's pretty much the same version and the same configuration. I must like to complain, I guess.
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22:41:20 <AnMaster> ehird, did you check gcc manual for __builtin_expect() or should I explain it?
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22:46:25 <comex> __builtin_expect(__builtin_expect(x, 1), 0)
22:46:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw listen also to http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Sv-anden_anden.ogg in case you didn't already
22:46:43 <AnMaster> comex, I wonder is that is legal...
22:47:19 <comex> yep
22:47:28 <comex> no interesting warning or anything :(
22:47:46 <AnMaster> comex, of course not...
22:47:59 <comex> ?
22:48:03 <AnMaster> comex, it would make perfect sense for future compatibility!
22:48:09 <AnMaster> comex, think about it
22:48:18 <AnMaster> it makes perfect sense on quantum computers
22:48:56 <comex> :u
22:49:03 <AnMaster> what is that smiley?
22:49:25 <comex> dunno
22:49:32 <comex> also, I wonder why my computer can't play mono sounds
22:49:38 <AnMaster> err what?
22:49:38 <comex> stereo, fine, mono, silence
22:49:44 <comex> no matter what player I use
22:49:45 <AnMaster> comex, that is strange
22:49:57 <comex> though I can use, say, sox to make it a stereo file and then it plays
22:50:02 <AnMaster> comex, how are your speakers connected?
22:50:18 <comex> standardly
22:50:30 <AnMaster> maybe you get mono left normally from stereo, but mono maps to mono right
22:50:33 <AnMaster> or something like that
22:50:37 <AnMaster> comex, check alsamixer btw
22:50:48 <AnMaster> assuming you are on Linux.
22:50:53 <AnMaster> no idea for other OSes
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22:53:42 <comex> nope, I can adjust balance to play on either speakwer
22:54:38 <comex> admittedly my speaker cable is "dodgy" (two wires spliced together) but that can't be the issue
22:55:23 <AnMaster> weird
23:27:47 <pikhq> Check your ALSA configuration?
23:27:58 <pikhq> Beat your userspace with a rubber hose?
23:29:33 <MizardX> http://sovietrussia.org/f/src/tetoris.swf
23:34:08 <Slereah_> old
23:34:19 <Slereah_> Why is everyone linking this from Soviet Russia anyway?
23:34:22 <Slereah_> It's weird
23:34:34 <Slereah_> Visit their /cat/ board by the way!
23:34:41 <Slereah_> And /z/ if your soul can take it
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23:37:30 <oerjan> <fizzie> I keep writing "befun" instead of "begin" in LaTeX files.
23:37:40 <oerjan> everything should more befun
23:39:43 <AnMaster> night
23:39:48 <AnMaster> wait a sec
23:40:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, does Norwegian have the "sje" sound in "sju"?
23:40:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, use renewcommand to make befun mean begin?
23:40:59 <oerjan> 7 = "sju" in norwegian, yes
23:41:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, the "sje" sound?
23:41:16 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palatal-velar_fricative
23:41:18 <oerjan> but the "sj" sound is not quite the same as in swedish, i think
23:41:28 <AnMaster> ah
23:41:55 <oerjan> i think i can pronounce the swedish one, and it is quite different
23:42:37 <oerjan> norwegian "sj" is fairly close to english "sh" i think
23:42:48 <AnMaster> hm ok
23:42:50 <AnMaster> night
23:45:05 <fizzie> I'm not sure you can simply renewcommand befun-begin, it's such an integral part of the whole environment thing. (I'm not saying it wouldn't work, just that I have some doubts. And I'm sure it'd be possible with some lower-level TeX.)
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23:51:18 <oerjan> <ehird> AnMaster: a swede is not powerful enough to be considered a computer. sorry.
23:51:23 <oerjan> the secret is spreading!
23:51:49 <oerjan> ehird: you should beware of the powerful swedish secret service, now
23:52:16 <oerjan> make sure you hide yourself well enough that only a computer can find you
23:54:03 <fizzie> Swedish Secret Service, and their Absolute Alliterative Authority over Computational Concerns.
23:55:09 <oerjan> that would be Confidential Computational Concerns
23:56:17 <oerjan> it must follow the Triliteral TLA Term policy
23:56:33 <fizzie> oerjan: What was your Erdős number? Oklopol impled it was <6, but did not state the numerical value.
23:56:38 <oerjan> 4
23:59:01 <fizzie> Okay. Is there a better way for computating that for a given person than the http://www.oakland.edu/enp/ -linked MathSciNet collaboration distance calculatato-a-tron?