←2009-03-22 2009-03-23 2009-03-24→ ↑2009 ↑all
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00:09:36 <ehird> HOW TO ANNOY A PHYSICIST
00:09:39 <ehird> Slereah_: what are quarks made of
00:09:56 <zzo38> Yes I'm sure abs(i)=-1
00:10:16 <zzo38> Some physicists might say quarks are made of strings, I guess?
00:10:20 <ais523> zzo38: depends on your definition of abs
00:10:31 <ehird> zzo38: what are strings made of :D
00:10:49 <zzo38> And I have done pseudo-math stuff before
00:11:02 <zzo38> Strings are made of spacetime
00:11:05 <Slereah_> ehird : cat guts
00:11:29 <ehird> Slereah_: so.. it's a fractal universe?
00:11:37 <ehird> Cat guts are made of [...] quarks which are made of cat guts.
00:11:46 <zzo38> And absolute value is defined as the distance from zero (at least that is how I define it and I have seen that definition but only once, and not in a book that discusses complex numbers)
00:11:59 <Slereah_> I like my universes recursive
00:12:24 <zzo38> Sometimes I think of the universes recursive also, but not always
00:13:12 <zzo38> I will describe the INTERCAL program I wrote in case you can't read it:
00:13:42 <oklofok> how is the distance of i from zero -1?
00:13:45 <zzo38> The DO |1 <- #0 DO |2 <- #100$#0 means to make |1 refer to a new zero qubit and |2 to refer to a new one qubit
00:13:58 <zzo38> The distance of i from zero is positive 1.
00:14:14 <zzo38> Therefore abs(i)=+1
00:14:17 <oerjan> zzo38: it applies to complex numbers as well, just use pythagoras: abs(a+b*i) = sqrt(a^2+b^2)
00:14:18 <zzo38> Not -1
00:14:29 <oklofok> zzo38: Yes I'm sure abs(i)=-1 <<< okay this just confused me a bit
00:14:41 <zzo38> I already knew it applied to complex numbers as well and have used pythagoras.
00:14:57 <zzo38> oklofok: That was an error I meant abs(i)=+1
00:15:18 <zzo38> The lines DO TRANSFORM |1 DO TRANSFORM |2 applies the Hadamard transform to each register
00:15:34 <zzo38> (13000) is the line label for the quantum black box function
00:15:42 <zzo38> And then it Hadamard transform again
00:15:55 <ais523> oh, you made a truly quantum INTERCAL, rather than the one in CLC-INTERCAL that's just disguised multithreading?
00:16:07 <oerjan> oklofok: +1 = -1 in any field of characteristic 2 *ducks obscurely*
00:16:08 <zzo38> And then it sets .1 to zero, and .1 to one if |1 measures to one
00:16:16 <Sgeo> AFK
00:16:26 <ais523> oerjan: like the field of one-bit numbers?
00:16:39 <zzo38> And then the DO READ OUT .1 since it is not a quantum command, will force a measurement and output zero or one (in roman numerals, of course).
00:16:43 <oerjan> ais523: that would be the prime field of c. 2, yes
00:17:09 <ehird> -1i = 1i right? I'm rusty on corner cases.
00:17:09 <zzo38> And yes, I made (but not implemented yet!) a truly quantum INTERCAL, rather than the fake one in CLC-INTERCAL.
00:17:34 <ais523> that's worrying enough
00:17:39 <oerjan> ehird: erm not in the complex numbers
00:17:40 <ais523> I don't think I've used | in C-INTERCAL
00:17:48 <ais523> if I can think of a way to implement it, I'll have to try
00:17:49 <ais523> but not right now
00:17:51 <ehird> oerjan: er right
00:18:10 <zzo38> In CLCLC-INTERCAL the | operator has a different meaning than it did in C-INTERCAL (if it had a meaning at all in C-INTERCAL)
00:18:39 <ais523> it doesn't have a meaning in C-INTERCAL
00:18:46 <ais523> in CLC-INTERCAL, it's one of the TriINTERCAL operators, I think
00:18:48 <ais523> can't remember which one
00:19:17 <zzo38> ais523: (TriINTERCAL) Yes that's what I think too. But CLCLC-INTERCAL doesn't have TriINTERCAL so you don't have to worry about that
00:19:35 <ais523> stop breaking sidewards compatibility!
00:20:07 <zzo38> If you want compatibility, just run it in compatibility mode!!!!
00:20:47 <zzo38> And what's "sidewards compatibility" anyways? I have only heard of backward and forward but not sideways
00:21:33 <ais523> compatibility between unrelated impls of the same language
00:21:52 <oerjan> the important thing here should be snidewards compatibility
00:21:57 <oklofok> oerjan: yes i know that much field theory
00:22:14 <oerjan> you must support all the inside jokes
00:22:17 <oklofok> and much more by next friday
00:22:20 <zzo38> Well, there's compatibility if you run it in compatibility mode. Even FreeBASIC also has a compatibility mode and non-compatibility mode (and I use both modes of FreeBASIC).
00:22:21 <oklofok> yes
00:22:23 <oklofok> :DD
00:22:33 <ehird> does freebasic let you poke to graphics memory
00:22:35 <ais523> oerjan: that's a great pun, a really great pun
00:22:46 <ehird> SCREEN 13 \n POKE x+(y*320), colour
00:22:46 <ehird> :D
00:22:50 <ehird> err
00:22:52 <ais523> can I use that in C-INTERCAL advertising?
00:22:52 <ehird> add a def seg in there
00:23:03 <ais523> it's one of the best puns I've seen yet, and it's on-topic
00:23:10 <ehird> ais523: someone should buy a google adwords for intercal
00:23:12 <zzo38> FreeBASIC doesn't support DEF SEG, you have to use absolute addresses without segments
00:23:14 <ehird> for "programming" or something
00:23:16 <oerjan> ais523: i would be honored, i had no idea it was that good
00:23:22 <ehird> oerjan: it wasn't
00:23:34 * oerjan swats ehird -----###
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00:24:29 <zzo38> Yes maybe CLCLC-INTERCAL should have a "snidewards compatibility" mode as well just to be weird, whatever that means (does it have something to do with printing snide remarks or something like that?)
00:24:44 * oerjan suddenly envisions hackwards compatibility
00:24:47 <ais523> zzo38: read up on INTERCAL error messages sometime
00:24:56 <oerjan> must ... complete ... the set
00:25:02 <ais523> oerjan: compatibility with unofficially modified versions of itself?
00:25:08 <oerjan> maybe.
00:25:58 <ehird> hmm
00:26:00 <zzo38> Ya maybe even compatibility with unofficially modified version of itself (but only if you enable that option)
00:26:23 <ais523> oerjan: I can't think of a way to complete the set
00:26:25 <ais523> but if anyone can, it's you
00:26:31 <ehird> zzo38: you should implement CLCLC-INTERCAL by making a library specifically for options
00:26:34 <ehird> and writing all the rest as options
00:27:01 <ehird> like, --check-politeness, --constant-fold
00:27:04 <oerjan> for- is such a boring prefix to rhyme
00:27:09 <ehird> and the options depend on other options for stages as the compiler
00:27:47 <ais523> ehird: CLC-INTERCAL is implemented similarly to that anyway
00:28:00 <ehird> ais523: not really
00:28:03 <ehird> it's not entirely based on options
00:28:06 * ais523 finds it amusing that whenever anyone tries to think of a /really bad/ compiler design, CLC-INTERCAL already has it covered
00:28:14 <ais523> ehird: the options just change which compiler files are linked in
00:28:17 <ais523> so arguably, yes
00:28:19 <ehird> ais523: with this, for instance,
00:28:22 <ehird> you could do
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00:28:31 <ais523> there are default option sets, but they're in an rc file
00:28:33 <zzo38> That's good way, maybe have options depend on other options for stages as the compiler.
00:28:44 <ehird> icick --compile --no-compile-assignments
00:28:51 <ehird> which would turn on compile and its dependencies but turn off --compile-assignments
00:28:57 <ehird> so it'd work exactly as normal but you couldn't assign to anything
00:29:21 <ais523> ehird: CLC-INTERCAL could trivially be modified to do that
00:29:22 <zzo38> Except that in CLCLC-INTERCAL it uses the old type of options that 1972 INTERCAL used (see the wiki page for details, and checking politeness is one of them).
00:29:23 <ehird> option dependencies would be function calls
00:29:24 <ehird> pretty much
00:29:27 <ais523> some commands, like NEXT are in their own preloads already
00:29:30 <ais523> = options
00:29:32 <ehird> ais523: it's a matter of implementation
00:29:42 <ais523> it's just a matter of splitting apart the files to be finer-graned
00:29:47 <ais523> *grained
00:29:56 <ehird> in mine, the whole compiler is one huge block simply using a massively bloated option parser
00:29:59 <zzo38> Yes both CLC-INTERCAL and CLCLC-INTERCAL could make assignment stop working, either DO ABSTAIN FROM CALCULATING or modify the syntax so that the assignment command does nothing
00:30:06 <ehird> and instead of calling functions it depends on arguments in just the right way
00:31:25 <zzo38> And you modify syntax at *RUN-TIME ONLY*, not compile-time. In CLC-INTERCAL you could do both but in CLCLC-INTERCAL you can do so only at run-time. However, if you want to do all the changes at once you could CREATE a syntax that does all the other changes at once and then add the command that was just created to the end of that file. The next file in the stack will then be executed using the new compiler
00:31:50 <ais523> the whole point with CLC-INTERCAL is you can't tell compile time from runtime
00:31:52 <oerjan> hm maybe forkwards compatibility
00:32:11 <ais523> oerjan: not bad, although that's much the same as sidewards probably
00:33:23 <oerjan> maybe furwards or firwards for the environmentalists
00:33:27 <ehird> INTERCAL compilation idea: Just Late Compilation
00:33:40 <zzo38> In CLC-INTERCAL I think you can decide whether to change syntax at compile-time or run-time by using crawling-registers, but CLCLC-INTERCAL has no crawling-registers
00:33:48 <oerjan> ehird: :D
00:33:49 <ehird> It interprets the program and compiles it simultaneously. Once it's compiled a part, it rewinds the program up to that point and runs the faster compiled version.
00:33:54 <oklofok> ehird: awesome
00:33:55 <ais523> ehird: Just-Too-Late is Claudio's name for CLC-INTERCAL's compilation method
00:34:00 <ehird> ais523: haha, really?
00:34:05 <oklofok> :D
00:34:14 <ais523> it works by running the program until it gets an error, then compiling the bit that errored and trying again
00:34:29 <ais523> the error is typically a syntax error due to the code in the section not having been parsed
00:37:08 <zzo38> But in CLCLC-INTERCAL how the compiler should probably work, is each time a file is load or the command CREATE or DESTROY or IMPORT is used, it has to recompile the current file.
00:37:23 <ais523> yes, that's boring
00:37:30 <ais523> neither C-INTERCAL nor CLC-INTERCAL work like that
00:37:37 <ais523> for instance, C-INTERCAL does all the compilation at compile time
00:37:45 <ais523> things that don't have a meaning yet are speculatively compiled
00:37:50 <ais523> so that they can run if they're given a meaning
00:37:59 <oerjan> DESTROY should be CREMATE, just for the confusion
00:38:15 <ais523> well, C-INTERCAL has CREATE but not DESTROY
00:38:32 <ehird> ao
00:38:33 <ehird> so
00:38:35 <ehird> I'm stark raving mad.
00:38:47 <ehird> this much istrue
00:39:12 <oerjan> ehird: i would quote lewis carroll but people started complaining about it
00:39:14 <zzo38> But isn't CREATE in C-INTERCAL different than the CLC-INTERCAL and CLCLC-INTERCAL?
00:39:30 <ais523> yep, it's limited to things that the compiler has a chance of guessing at with no context
00:39:35 <ehird> and if anyone wants to know why I'm stark raving mad, ask in /msg because it's too mad for this place (no, really.)
00:39:36 <ais523> so there are various grammar restrictions on it
00:39:49 <ais523> ehird: maybe later, I have to go home soon
00:39:58 <ais523> also, that's probably the second time you've mentioned it here
00:40:09 <ais523> but if it's madder than creating your own email client, probably I don't want to know
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00:40:29 <zzo38> I can't ask in /msg there is no such nick/channel
00:40:31 <ehird> wait, that's mad?
00:40:38 <ehird> zzo38: heh
00:41:06 <zzo38> And I have created my own email client before but now I don't use email anymore
00:41:12 <ais523> ehird: are you sure it's too mad for here?
00:41:16 <ais523> is that even physically possible?
00:41:16 <ehird> ais523: maybe
00:41:22 <ehird> zzo38: you have no email account?
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00:41:26 <ais523> *psychically possible
00:41:36 <ais523> also, that took ais523_ a while, given the computer was forcibly shut down
00:41:40 <ais523> about 4 minutes ago
00:46:01 <zzo38> I changed the CLCLC-INTERCAL wiki page so that it says that CREMATE is the new name for DESTROY (if you don't like it, you can create the new syntax for DESTROY so that DESTROY works as well)
00:47:42 <zzo38> ehird: Yes I have no email. But sometimes it requires email to register for something so I just wrote my own SMTP server and run it only when I am expecting one of those messages, and then cancel the SMTP server afterward
00:47:51 <ehird> that's awesome :D
00:47:56 <ehird> I couldn't live without email though
00:48:01 <ehird> e.g. mailing lists
00:48:08 <ais523> that is really quite an impressive way to get a single-use email address
00:48:25 <ais523> zzo38: what should people use instead to contact you? Push-gopher?
00:49:36 <zzo38> There is currently no real way. If you are a member of any message boards I go on, you can send a private message there. You can also post a comment on ChronoJournal. And if you know my house address or telephone number (neither of which I will tell you) then you can use that
00:50:14 <ehird> zzo38: you should invent a way that somehow lets people send messages to you via the finger protocol
00:50:25 <ehird> that would be ridiculous and nobody could use it, which is what you want in a message service
00:51:12 <ais523> someone should invent push-gopher now
00:51:14 <zzo38> O that's easy to write a way to send messages by finger protocol, just put the message as the query. And it can easily be sent too, with netcat or any finger client. But I don't currently plan on doing this
00:51:20 <ais523> along the same lines as PTTH
00:51:28 <zzo38> What's push-gopher supposed to do anyways?
00:51:45 <zzo38> And what's PTTH
00:51:50 <ais523> like gopher, but you send someone else to your gopher page, rather than visiting theirs
00:52:02 <ais523> and PTTH is a new thing coming out of the IETF, it's like HTTP but in reverse
00:52:11 <ehird> PTTH was designed for second life
00:52:13 <ehird> I believe.
00:52:29 <oerjan> don't you mean PFFFTH
00:52:44 <ehird> zzo38: O that's easy to write a way to send messages by finger protocol, just put the message as the query. <-- that's boring though, it should be like, accessing two finger sites dit and dot which are interpreted as morse code
00:52:45 <zzo38> O. I understand now. I could implement that if I wanted to, I guess.
00:53:42 <zzo38> O, you want to use morse code?
00:53:50 <zzo38> I guess you can use morse code if you want to.
00:54:22 <zzo38> Send a voice-mail to someone with morse-code so that the computer can print out your voice-mail. Someone once asked "How do I print my voicemail?"
00:54:51 <ehird> zzo38: i was thinking like
00:54:59 <ehird> finger dit.zzo38computer.cjb.net
00:54:59 <ehird> finger dit.zzo38computer.cjb.net
00:55:00 <ehird> finger dit.zzo38computer.cjb.net
00:55:03 <ehird> finger dot.zzo38computer.cjb.net
00:55:06 <ehird> finger pause.zzo38computer.cjb.net
00:55:08 <ehird> then you'd do
00:55:10 <ehird> finger end.zzo38computer.cjb.net
00:55:10 <ehird> to stop
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00:56:03 <zzo38> Interesting for hypothetical esoteric programming stuff, but not for real use
00:56:31 <ehird> zzo38: you could make an smtp server that takes a message and converts it to morse code then does that
00:57:10 <zzo38> Yes, that's possible, but I have no plans to do that
00:57:36 <zzo38> And next time someone asks you how to print their voice-mail, ask them if they receive their voice-mail in morse-code
00:58:21 <ehird> :D
01:04:18 <zzo38> People can already send message to me by connecting to my HTTP site and typing a message in the URL, it will be logged, however I hardly ever read the server logs and have no guarantee that I will ever read your message.
01:04:44 <ehird> :D
01:04:57 <ehird> zzo38: i left you an http message
01:05:41 <zzo38> Thanks I found it. But that's only because you told me about it
01:06:14 <oerjan> maybe if we do it as a subtle DOS attack...
01:06:35 <zzo38> Don't do the DOS attack...
01:07:02 <zzo38> But sending me a message by HTTP is a good way to do it in case someone is communicating with me on a live public service where private messages are not possible.
01:07:13 <zzo38> But I don't know any other circumstance in which it would be useful.
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02:34:57 <ehird> "BigDecimal(): Not a number: 1"
02:34:59 <ehird> Well, er...
03:00:15 <kerlo> Irony in command line arguments: --ignore-case and --IGNORE-CASE do different things.
03:00:43 <ehird> kerlo: :D
03:03:41 <Sgeo> Is that a joke, or serious? What do they do?
03:04:15 <kerlo> Those are arguments that less takes
03:04:40 <kerlo> One ignores case when the search or whatever contains only lowercase letters; the other ignores case in all cases.
03:04:51 <kerlo> (Lol, "in all cases".)
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07:29:11 <oklofok> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
07:35:29 <MizardX> mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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17:04:15 <ehird> Huh, PGP's source is publicly available. (Not FOSS, though.)
17:04:17 <ehird> I didn't know.
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17:54:03 <AnMaster> ehird, heh
17:54:13 <AnMaster> ehird, anything wrong with gpg though?
17:54:16 <ehird> nope
17:55:14 <AnMaster> there are even nice GUI frontends for gpg. And (this may surprise you) I use such a GUI frontend most of the time, because I find it hard to remember all the command line switches and what not
17:55:27 <ehird> I know :P
17:55:29 <AnMaster> ehird, anything like kgpg or such for OS X?
17:55:36 <ehird> Yeah there's gpg stuff for os x
17:55:44 <ehird> what I really want is something unifying gpg and ssh keys
17:55:56 <AnMaster> ehird, like ssh-agent/gpg-agent?
17:56:03 <AnMaster> or what do you mean
17:56:04 <ehird> I mean the whole actual thing
17:56:09 <ehird> Use your gpg identity as an ssh key
17:56:15 <AnMaster> hm
17:56:15 <ehird> instead of having two key pairs
17:56:32 <AnMaster> I think they are technically incompatible though
17:56:41 <AnMaster> you could make some combined file format or such I guess
17:56:53 <ehird> Of course they're incompatible
17:56:56 <ehird> I'm saying I wish they weren't :P
17:57:45 <ehird> An irritating thing about gnupg is their refusal to provide a library
17:57:48 <AnMaster> btw, do you use ssh-agent?
17:57:52 <AnMaster> or gpg-agent
17:58:07 <ehird> To be honest, I haven't got round to setting up an ssh key on my server yet.
17:58:12 <AnMaster> heh
17:58:31 <ehird> I'm still trying to think of a way to make sudo use my ssh key, thus completely removing passwords from the equation :-)
17:58:52 <AnMaster> ehird, that is rather easy: generate a key, do: ssh-copy-id -i ~/.ssh/id_rsa.pub foo@bar.org
17:59:01 <AnMaster> well you will need to adjust the paths of course
17:59:07 <ehird> That's nothing to do with sudo
17:59:22 <AnMaster> ehird, well true, but I meant copying the id is dead easy
17:59:31 <ehird> Yes, I know. I've done it before :-)
17:59:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Even easier:
17:59:40 <ehird> just scp it to authorized_keys
17:59:47 <ehird> .ssh/authorized_keys that is
18:00:07 <ehird> 4.16) Can't we have a gpg library?
18:00:07 <ehird> This has been frequently requested. However, the current viewpoint of the GnuPG maintainers is that this would lead to several security issues and will therefore not be implemented in the foreseeable future. However, for some areas of application gpgme could do the trick. You'll find it at <ftp://ftp.gnupg.org/gcrypt/alpha/gpgme>.
18:00:10 <ehird> ^ don't like that attitude
18:00:41 <AnMaster> ehird, what sort of security issues? Programmers using the library incorrectly?
18:00:47 <ehird> I think that's the idea
18:00:49 <ehird> but that's just stupid
18:00:50 <AnMaster> mhm
18:01:01 <ehird> you can use gpg's tools improperly too
18:01:12 <AnMaster> if the API is high level enough it shouldn't be an issue
18:01:34 <AnMaster> I mean, basically API for what you can do with the command line tool
18:01:41 <ehird> yes
18:01:41 <AnMaster> then it should be no more insecure
18:02:41 <AnMaster> ehird, though since it is C I guess stuff like memory corruption in the program using the library could mean that a separate process would be more secure
18:02:57 <ehird> AnMaster: hee you just reminded me of the debian issue
18:03:05 <AnMaster> ehird, the openssl one?
18:03:07 <ehird> yep
18:03:14 <ehird> hur hur they're using uninitialized memory, well they must be stoopids! *comments out*
18:03:22 <ehird> dumbo security guys ha ha
18:03:26 <AnMaster> well that is the wrong way to solve it indeed.
18:03:43 <ehird> I love how they did it just so valgrind would shut up
18:03:44 <AnMaster> a better idea would have been to report it upstream
18:03:50 <ehird> er
18:03:51 <ehird> it wasn't a bug
18:03:57 <ehird> it was an intentional source of entropy
18:03:58 <AnMaster> mhm ok
18:04:09 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure how random that would be
18:04:14 <ehird> int main(void) { return 0; } /* 100% valgrind clean */
18:04:37 <ehird> AnMaster: in the process they commented out the main entropy source
18:04:39 <AnMaster> ehird, only with the default suppressions for libc internals
18:04:51 <ehird> so instead of just decreasing it a bit it pummeled it
18:04:52 <AnMaster> and ld.so too
18:05:05 <AnMaster> ehird, heh
18:05:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I wonder what they did to python then....
18:05:22 <AnMaster> since it isn't valgrind clean
18:05:26 <AnMaster> by design
18:05:26 <ehird> :D
18:05:29 <ehird> ln -s python perl
18:05:32 <ehird> er
18:05:34 <ehird> reverse that.
18:06:24 <AnMaster> ehird, basically pythons' allocator does some quite (but not 100% in theory) safe stuff
18:06:29 <AnMaster> err
18:06:32 <AnMaster> python's*
18:06:36 <ehird> quite safe stuff?
18:06:37 <ehird> typo? :D
18:06:55 <AnMaster> err?
18:07:14 <AnMaster> ehird, what typo?
18:07:19 <ehird> "basically python's allocator does some quite safe stuff"
18:07:20 <AnMaster> the one I corrected?
18:07:23 <ehird> doing safe stuff makes python complain now?
18:07:24 <ehird> er
18:07:27 <ehird> s/python/valgrind/
18:07:39 <AnMaster> ehird, no not exactly.
18:08:01 <AnMaster> ehird, pymalloc reads uninitialised memory
18:08:19 <ehird> ah.
18:08:20 <AnMaster> let me check the details in README.valgrind in python's source tarball
18:08:20 <ehird> why
18:09:14 <AnMaster> PyMalloc needs to know whether an arbitrary address is one
18:09:14 <AnMaster> that's managed by it, or is managed by the system malloc.
18:09:14 <AnMaster> The current scheme allows this to be determined in constant
18:09:14 <AnMaster> time, regardless of how many memory areas are under pymalloc's
18:09:14 <AnMaster> control.
18:09:22 <AnMaster> The memory pymalloc manages itself is in one or more "arenas",
18:09:22 <AnMaster> each a large contiguous memory area obtained from malloc.
18:09:22 <AnMaster> The base address of each arena is saved by pymalloc
18:09:23 <AnMaster> in a vector. Each arena is carved into "pools", and a field at
18:09:25 <AnMaster> the start of each pool contains the index of that pool's arena's
18:09:27 <AnMaster> base address in that vector.
18:09:32 <AnMaster> Given an arbitrary address, pymalloc computes the pool base
18:09:32 <AnMaster> address corresponding to it, then looks at "the index" stored
18:09:33 <AnMaster> near there. If the index read up is out of bounds for the
18:09:36 <AnMaster> vector of arena base addresses pymalloc maintains, then
18:09:37 <AnMaster> pymalloc knows for certain that this address is not under
18:09:39 <AnMaster> pymalloc's control. Otherwise the index is in bounds, and
18:09:41 <AnMaster> pymalloc compares
18:09:43 <AnMaster> the arena base address stored at that index in the vector
18:09:45 <AnMaster> to
18:09:47 <AnMaster> the arbitrary address pymalloc is investigating
18:09:47 <ehird> AnMaster: ...
18:09:48 <ehird> dude.
18:09:49 <ehird> that
18:09:51 <ehird> is
18:09:53 <ehird> some
18:09:54 <ehird> fucking
18:09:56 <ehird> flood
18:09:58 <AnMaster> actually I should have pastebinned it yes
18:10:06 <ehird> Python is so boringly conventional, its implementation does nooo fun tricks.
18:10:32 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway point is that it reads uninitialised memory.
18:10:48 <ehird> Rite.
18:12:10 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:12:26 <ehird> hi ais523
18:12:36 <AnMaster> ehird, strlen() could do that too, since the glibc optimised strlen() reads 4 or 8 bytes at a time to speed up, it means it could read past end of string a few bytes. But it is quite safe since it will read 4- or 8- aligned bytes. And the system pagesize is a multiple of that so it can never hit a non-readable page.
18:12:47 <AnMaster> and hello ais523
18:12:47 <ais523> ehird: I knew you'd said hi ais523 without even looking at the channel
18:12:47 <lament> your mom is so boringly conventional, she does nooo fun tricks
18:12:50 <ehird> I know how glibc strlen() works, AnMaster.
18:12:54 <ais523> just based on the fact I'd been highlighted
18:12:55 <ehird> Because I advocated it.
18:12:56 <ais523> and hi AnMaster
18:12:56 <ehird> To comex. :P
18:13:08 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway valgrind has a default suppression for that
18:13:26 <ais523> AnMaster: what if there's a memory-mapped hardware address past the end of the string
18:13:37 <ais523> and the string itself is entirely in memory-mapped hardware, but you don't mind reading those addresses?
18:14:22 <AnMaster> ais523, hm, I don't think you can map anywhere but a multiple of the page size on x86 at least
18:14:27 <fizzie> About fun tricks (that we talked about here earlier): according to That One Wiki, people actually have been doing "swap palettes during the screen drawing to get more colors" tricks with CGA cards: "The best example of this in use is the game California Games[8] when run on a stock 4.77 MHz 8088. (Running it on a faster computer does not produce the effect, as the method the programmers used to switch palettes at predetermined locations is extremely sensitive
18:14:27 <fizzie> to machine speed.)"
18:14:34 <AnMaster> and glibc have different strlen() for different arches
18:15:15 <AnMaster> ehird, IMO they should valgrind should do: if (fileexists("/etc/debian-release")) disable_glibc_suppressions();
18:15:17 <AnMaster> ;)
18:15:29 <AnMaster> then debian would surely get a superslow glibc
18:15:35 <ais523> AnMaster: there are surely better ways to tell if you're on Debian or not!
18:15:47 <ais523> and why would you deliberately give debian a superslow glibc?
18:16:01 <ehird> AnMaster: eh, debian is alright; just a fuckup because they modified security software without carefully checking it (which _is_ stupid)
18:16:10 <AnMaster> ais523, Well since we discussed Debian, OpenSSL and valgrind...
18:16:56 <ehird> "relying on the garbage collector is a crutch" /facepalm
18:17:07 <AnMaster> heh, who wrote that?
18:17:12 <ehird> random redditor
18:17:21 <lament> it's a fairly wide-spread view
18:17:34 <ehird> lament: yeah, like AnMaster here used to have ;)
18:18:04 <lament> i'm not saying people who think that aren't insane, but there's logic to their madness
18:18:18 <ehird> er
18:18:20 <ehird> there is?
18:18:20 <AnMaster> ehird, btw using unintialised memory for entropy isn't such a good idea, since kernel usually give blanked out pages to glibc, so the stuff you end up reading is likely your own previous stuff.
18:18:54 <AnMaster> I'm not sure about memory allocated with sbrk() but not blanking pages before giving them to user space sounds like a really bad idea for security
18:21:02 * ehird works on Awful Project
18:21:47 <AnMaster> ehird, about GC. GC makes sense for languages with typed data, GC for C programs is IMO not such a good idea. Well good idea maybe, but in practise it doesn't work well.
18:21:55 <AnMaster> Well,*
18:22:15 <ehird> That's a C deficiency
18:22:21 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed.
18:22:41 <lament> sea deficiency :(
18:22:52 <ehird> ;__;
18:22:55 <AnMaster> lament, that would be a boat or a whale?
18:23:17 <Asztal_> vitamin C deficiency?
18:23:22 <AnMaster> haha
18:24:09 <fizzie> According to http://wiki.debian.org/SSLkeys#TechnicalSummary it's not that they were using unitialized memory for randomness; it's just that they removed two MD_Update calls, of which one actually was responsible of adding /dev/random-based entropy in.
18:24:30 <AnMaster> anyway... since C and C++ are quite popular languages even for stuff that don't need the low levelness or the speed. it isn't strange that GCs ended up with a bad reputation(sp?)
18:24:31 <ehird> hmm
18:24:36 <ehird> fizzie: yes. I said that
18:24:55 <fizzie> ehird: There was too much babble for me to read through that closely.
18:24:57 <ehird> AnMaster: it's strange that C is popular for anything but kernel development
18:25:06 <ehird> well that's strange too but I won't be too heretical
18:25:11 <AnMaster> ehird, well C++ is sadly more popular these days
18:25:21 <lament> it's strange that foo is popular for bar
18:25:26 <ehird> 'This was done to try to make it easier to debug C applications that use the openssl libraries which is a good thing to do."
18:25:33 <ehird> Is this the Simple English debian wiki?
18:25:51 <lament> ehird: you're the only person on *the internet* who complains more than I do.
18:26:13 <ehird> lament: Oh, no, I know one person who complains more.
18:26:20 <lament> wow.
18:26:23 <ais523> lament: well, you don't complain much in here
18:26:26 <ehird> lament: They are a huge pain to talk to.
18:26:31 <ais523> but presumably based on that you complain a lot elsewhere
18:26:42 <ehird> ais523: he complains loads in here
18:26:45 <AnMaster> ehird, on the other hand since OS is in C, basic libraries in C and graphical window drawing thingy is either built into kernel or a program coded in C (all of those can be justified to be in C, they need low level stuff and they need speed), it is easy to interface with stuff if you code in C
18:26:58 <AnMaster> and then other stuff can interface with the stuff you just wrote in C as easily
18:26:58 <ehird> AnMaster: foo to unix I say. Foo!
18:27:04 <AnMaster> so that just growz
18:27:06 <AnMaster> grows*
18:28:17 <AnMaster> ehird, hm what did that mean?
18:28:23 <ehird> AnMaster: i dislike unix :P
18:28:28 <ehird> http://libexplain.sourceforge.net/ <-- This is nice.
18:29:38 <AnMaster> hm
18:31:32 <AnMaster> ehird, Hm... Interesting
18:32:00 <AnMaster> code ends up rather verbose though
18:32:09 <ehird> AnMaster: o rly?
18:32:17 <ehird> fd = libexplain_open_or_die(path, flags, mode);
18:32:19 <ehird> vs
18:32:21 <ehird> fd = open(path, flags, mode);
18:32:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, having to list the arguments again.
18:32:23 <ehird> if (fd < 0) {
18:32:27 <ehird> print out sterror
18:32:27 <ehird> }
18:32:30 <ehird> AnMaster: read
18:32:30 <AnMaster> What if you don't have a local variable for it?
18:32:32 <ehird> The good new is that for each of these functions there is a wrapper function, in this case libexplain_open_or_die(3), that includes the above code fragment. Adding good error reporting is as simple as using a different, but similarly named, function. The library also provides thread safe variants of each explanation function.
18:32:38 <AnMaster> ah
18:32:44 <AnMaster> that is a lot more useful
18:32:58 <AnMaster> if you want to make it a fatal error that is
18:33:12 <AnMaster> (which is rather common)
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18:38:53 <ais523> ehird: the libexplain thing means that UNIX is the second environment, after C++, which now has a dedicated library/program to explain its error messages
18:39:02 <ehird> :-D
18:39:12 <ehird> Thus proving the awfulness of them both!
18:39:15 <ehird> Ahem.
18:39:23 <ehird> ais523: they should make one of them for ed
18:39:25 <ehird> ?
18:39:26 <ehird> [[
18:39:27 <ehird> Either:
18:39:30 <ehird> - You entered an invalid command
18:39:36 <ehird> - You entered nonsensical parameters into a valid command
18:39:40 <ehird> (100 pages)
18:39:40 <ehird> ]]
18:39:45 <ais523> ehird: heh
18:40:34 <AnMaster> ehird, I wonder why ed doesn't even have error codes or something
18:40:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Disk space, UNIX philosophy.
18:40:52 <ehird> The fact that Ken Thompson doesn't make errors, dammit.
18:40:53 <AnMaster> ah yes it is that old indeed...
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18:41:13 <ehird> http://philosecurity.org/2009/03/23/pirates-and-ninjas-emacs-or-vi
18:41:52 <ehird> Woah.
18:41:55 <ehird> Bjarne Stroustrup edits with Sam
18:42:00 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_(text_editor)
18:43:33 <fizzie> I once wrote a Win32 CD player program with a "netcat into it" UI (I don't really remember why the box in question ran Windows, though) which used one-character commands, and answered "?" to any erroneous input; and if you wrote "?" back, it printed out the "help", which was a string of all valid commands in lexical order; something like "[0-9]?eflprs". That one might've been a bit unpopular if I had distributed it to anyone.
18:43:40 <AnMaster> ehird, what on earth has pirates and ninjas got to do with emacs or vi(m)?
18:43:52 <ehird> AnMaster: They're both holy wars.
18:43:57 <AnMaster> I see...
18:46:07 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Acme.png <- plan9 is awesome
18:46:10 <ais523> I'm not aware pirate vs. ninja is a holy war
18:46:15 <ais523> just because I've never met anyone on either side of it
18:46:22 <ais523> although many people are passionate about the issue
18:46:22 <ehird> ais523: it's more of an internet thing, I think
18:46:25 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed it was news to me too
18:46:28 <ais523> I know it's an internet thing
18:46:30 <ehird> ah
18:46:36 <ais523> certainly, pirates and ninjas are mortal enemies
18:46:43 <ais523> but you don't get people who are raving on the pirate side or the ninja side
18:46:46 <ehird> sure you do
18:46:48 <ais523> most people think it's either a draw, or situational
18:46:51 <ehird> the holy war I've seen takes the form of "which is more awesome?"
18:47:04 <ehird> with subquestions "more likely to beat the other", etc.
18:47:07 <AnMaster> I fail to see why they couldn't cooperate
18:47:13 <ehird> AnMaster: ninjas? cooperate?
18:47:15 <ehird> o_o
18:47:20 <AnMaster> ehird, team work?
18:47:26 <ehird> ninjas.
18:47:43 <AnMaster> ehird, why not a team of 5 pirate ninjas?
18:47:52 <ehird> Stop destroying space-time, AnMaster.
18:48:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean it could work very well, attacking ships in a stealthy way instead of allowing the attackees to see the jolly roger flag from miles away
18:48:53 <ehird> Yes, but, that's not the point.
18:49:01 <ehird> As soon as you say "ninjas" and "cooperate" you're wrong.
18:49:14 <AnMaster> ehird, I fail to see wy
18:49:16 <AnMaster> why*
18:49:21 <ehird> That is because you are blind.
18:49:31 -!- cherez has joined.
18:49:38 -!- cherez has left (?).
18:49:53 <AnMaster> ehird, no I'm not blind
18:50:13 <ehird> you are blind to the 74.32th dimension (where ninjas reside.)
18:50:26 <AnMaster> ehird, do you prefer pirates or ninjas?
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18:50:54 <ehird> AnMaster: self-improving smarter-than-human AIs. They don't need to edit files; they just evolve new ones.
18:51:11 <AnMaster> err, what?
18:51:14 <ehird> Meditate on it.
18:52:00 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I suggest pirate ninjas as a compromise. And there is viper mode for emacs, I suggest adding a emacs mode to vim as well.
18:52:12 <ehird> 1) Impossible. 2) Space time.
18:52:32 <AnMaster> which 2?
18:52:41 <ehird> ``And there is viper mode for emacs, I suggest adding a emacs mode to vim as well.''
18:52:46 <AnMaster> yes and?
18:52:51 <ehird> Space time.
18:53:10 <AnMaster> ehird, err is that the name of some program or what?
18:53:15 <ehird> Space time.
18:53:17 <AnMaster> I mean how is space time related to it
18:53:22 <ehird> Destruction thereof, AnMaster.
18:53:27 <AnMaster> ah...
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18:53:57 <AnMaster> ehird, just add both vi and emacs modes to nano then, I guess it will have to be renamed to peta then
18:54:15 <ehird> AnMaster: emacs + anything = emacs. It's unavoidable.
18:54:31 <ais523> correct, emacs + vi = viper, but that's unmistakably emacs not vi
18:54:34 <AnMaster> ehird, hm...
18:54:51 <AnMaster> ais523, I admit I never used viper mode, I just heard about it
18:55:02 <ehird> ais523: yes, various emacsen have subquantum fluctuations in their existence wave so that you can tell them apart
18:55:03 <ehird> but they're still emacs
18:55:12 <AnMaster> ehird, hm bash has line editing you know?
18:55:20 <AnMaster> did you know that line editing has two modes
18:55:22 <ehird> AnMaster: Er. Yes. Yes I was aware.
18:55:27 <ehird> But that is not emacs.
18:55:27 <AnMaster> one emacs-style and one vim-style
18:55:30 <AnMaster> true
18:55:39 <ehird> That's just a small subset of emacs editing keys. AnMaster: You know, OS X has Emacs editing keys in _every input field_.
18:55:44 <AnMaster> but I mean... it hasn't turned into emacs just because of it
18:55:48 <ehird> Ctrl-A, Ctrl-E, Option-Left&Right, ...
18:55:52 <ehird> They all work just like in emacs.
18:55:55 <ehird> Doesn't make OS X emacs.
18:56:00 <ehird> It's deeper than the key bindings. More disturbing.
18:56:03 <ehird> Like Cthulhu.
18:56:16 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, though for Ctrl-A/E I actually edited my inputrc file so I use different keys in bash
18:57:00 <AnMaster> oh and I made PgUp/PgDown useful too. I mean it is really useless to have them jump to beginning/end of history. Personally I prefer to make them search in history instead
18:57:22 <ehird> AnMaster: They control my terminal scrollback for me :P
18:57:24 <AnMaster> "\e[5~": history-search-backward
18:57:24 <AnMaster> "\e[6~": history-search-forward
18:57:43 <AnMaster> ehird, ah konsole use shift-up/down for that
19:00:02 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/86roz/pirates_and_ninjas_emacs_or_vi/c08en63 Er.
19:01:32 <AnMaster> huh
19:01:50 <fizzie> That does sound more "pirate" than "ninja", yes.
19:02:15 <fizzie> What with all the monkey stuff and all.
19:02:17 <ais523> bash hash alt-p for search in history, and control-r for isearch in history
19:02:18 <AnMaster> pirates traditionally have beard too btw
19:02:19 <ais523> *has
19:02:45 * ehird installs plan9port
19:02:48 <AnMaster> ais523, what sort of search?
19:02:52 <AnMaster> ais523, not the same I think
19:03:21 <ehird> Fun fact: I used to swear by nano. :P
19:03:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:03:47 <ais523> nano is about my borderline for usable enough
19:03:47 <ais523> for regular editing
19:03:50 <ais523> something less usable than nano is really annoying to use
19:04:01 <ais523> whereas nano is above my editor annoyance threshhold
19:04:02 <AnMaster> ais523, the pgup/down search is like: $ ./configu<PgUp> -> $ ./configure --prefix=blah --lots-of-args-you-entered-when-calling-last-time --which-was-200-lines-ago-or-so
19:04:04 <ehird> Nano is pretty much in the windows tradition
19:04:09 <ehird> All the shortcuts are similar
19:04:11 <AnMaster> with the config I mentioned above
19:04:14 <ehird> and the text widget too
19:04:19 <AnMaster> ais523, I find it extremely useful
19:04:33 <ehird> that's alt-p isn't it
19:04:43 <ais523> ehird: not quite
19:04:52 <ais523> alt-p you press before typing the substring not after
19:04:57 <ais523> and it finds it in the middle of commands too
19:04:59 <ehird> doesnt it work with both
19:05:25 <AnMaster> ehird, hm PgDown searches like that but down from the current position, so if there are several matches and you press PgUp once too many times you can use use PgDown to go down to the previous match
19:05:40 <ehird> I believe that's also bound
19:05:45 <ehird> also, ctrl-r is better than what you said
19:05:46 <ehird> you can do
19:05:48 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
19:05:52 <ehird> ^R ./configu
19:05:55 <ehird> but it's more powerful
19:06:03 <ehird> In fish, what you said is
19:06:04 <ehird> ./configu<UP>
19:06:45 <ehird> hm
19:06:49 <AnMaster> ehird, no it wasn't better... ctrl-r found lines with configure in the middle, like: rm configure; ./autogen.sh
19:06:50 <ehird> how big are SSE values?
19:06:53 <ehird> 2 x word?
19:07:08 <AnMaster> ehird, SSE registers are 128 bits wide
19:07:23 <ehird> AnMaster: is there an SSE stack?
19:07:32 <AnMaster> no they aren't stacked like x87
19:07:37 <ehird> i mean
19:07:40 <ehird> a stack
19:07:41 <ehird> as in a stack
19:07:45 <ehird> that contains sse values
19:07:52 <ais523> hmm... interesting
19:07:56 <ais523> bash seems not to have a regex history search
19:08:24 <AnMaster> btw, unlike most x86 instructions the majority of the SSE instructions cause segfault if you try to operate on memory not aligned on 16-byte boundaries.
19:08:40 <AnMaster> ehird, you can put any values on your C stack
19:08:45 <AnMaster> SSE variables too
19:08:48 <AnMaster> if that is what you mean
19:08:53 <ehird> AnMaster: hmm
19:08:59 <ehird> Then you could use SSE vars to have efficient tagged pointers
19:09:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, you can have arrays and what not on your stack
19:09:06 <AnMaster> err
19:09:07 <AnMaster> what?
19:09:08 <ais523> wow, bash has an undo?
19:09:12 <AnMaster> ais523, undo how?
19:09:13 <ais523> I don't think I've ever needed to use that
19:09:13 <ehird> AnMaster: what do you mean what
19:09:21 <ais523> AnMaster: the same as in any other editor
19:09:27 <ais523> undoes editing commands in the line you're typing
19:09:35 <AnMaster> ehird, how would SSE help with tagged memory?
19:09:44 <fizzie> They really ought to cause SIGBUS, that sounds like it'd be more traditional for unaligned access.
19:09:50 <ehird> AnMaster: they efficiently store values larger than a machine word
19:09:59 <ehird> so you can pass them around as efficiently as a machine word
19:11:12 <AnMaster> ehird, SSE is usually slower to set up iirc. they are vector instructions, so to be of use you really need to operate on streams. IIRC they have higher initial latency on some CPUs (though I may misremember that)
19:11:22 <AnMaster> actually it wasn't that...
19:11:42 * AnMaster tries to remember why SSE was slower when you weren't doing lots of operations..
19:11:52 <AnMaster> anyone else know?
19:13:05 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway there are many things you can't do with SSE. Like most control flow (in more recent SSE versions there is some basic control flow support, and there is cmov style things too)
19:14:11 <AnMaster> ehird, however I think a good baseline for general use today would be SSE2 at most. I have one computer with just SSE and one with SSE2 and SSE3 too
19:14:15 <AnMaster> but nothing newer than that
19:14:24 -!- Blipi has joined.
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19:15:35 <AnMaster> hi oerjan
19:15:39 -!- tombom_ has joined.
19:16:15 <oerjan> g'day AnMaster
19:17:02 <oerjan> <ehird> Huh, PGP's source is publicly available. (Not FOSS, though.)
19:17:30 <oerjan> i think that's sort of a prerequisite for encryption to be trusted these days, isn't it?
19:17:36 <ehird> You'd be surprised.
19:18:08 <ais523> ehird: you shouldn't be surprised at that
19:18:20 <ais523> PGP's source was released publically by the author, because he wanted it to escape into the wild before he could be sued into oblivion
19:18:41 <lament> i would imagine most people think closed = more secure
19:18:41 <ehird> ais523: no you misunderstand
19:18:46 <ehird> it became closed source in the 90s
19:18:52 <ehird> at the protests of the pgp team
19:19:00 <ehird> but the new owner (PGP Corporation) has released the source now, it seems
19:19:04 <ais523> ah, interesting
19:19:08 <AnMaster> lament, err? why?
19:19:10 <ehird> not allowed to modify it other than to get it build, thouh
19:19:10 <ehird> gh
19:19:13 <ehird> which is a shame
19:19:20 <ais523> presumably its legal status was clarified eventually, then
19:19:21 <ehird> AnMaster: people can't see it and understand it and break it, DUH
19:19:27 <ehird> yes, this is what people believe
19:19:30 <ehird> ais523: ages ago, yes
19:19:35 <ehird> it's been legal since the early 90s
19:19:38 <ehird> well
19:19:40 <ehird> it never was illegal
19:19:45 <ais523> wow, I'm out of touch with the whole PGP story
19:19:48 <ehird> verily :D
19:19:55 <lament> AnMaster: by analogy with the Real World
19:19:58 <AnMaster> ehird, security by obscurity? Would anyone seriously think that works?
19:20:05 <lament> AnMaster: because it works in the real world
19:20:07 <ehird> AnMaster: No shit, of course they do
19:20:08 <fizzie> I just remember the "printed as book" part of the PGP story; that was the awesome.
19:20:12 <ehird> fizzie: i know!
19:20:16 <lament> and people are insufficiently familiar with how the real world is different from software
19:20:33 <ais523> security by obscurity doesn't work in the real world
19:20:37 <lament> also, security through obscurity does work, quite well, even in practice
19:20:38 <ais523> well, it works well enough in most cases
19:20:40 <ais523> but not perfectly
19:20:49 <ehird> Nobody cares about perfect
19:21:02 <ehird> Security by obscurity tends to work, it's just immoral and stupid.
19:21:02 <ais523> except people who have felt the problems imperfection causes
19:21:06 <lament> i have worked on currency exchange software
19:21:09 <AnMaster> lament, Um, how do you mean in the real world? A software is more like a building material with blue print included than any specific instance of a house
19:21:11 <AnMaster> for example
19:21:15 <lament> the system in production had critical security bugs for years
19:21:23 <lament> that i discovered and reported
19:21:33 <lament> but nobody actually discovered them "in the wild"
19:21:35 <AnMaster> a closed source software would be like one of those prefab houses
19:21:38 <lament> even though they could make a ton of money
19:21:42 <AnMaster> (spelling?)
19:21:50 <ehird> AnMaster: that's an awful analogy
19:21:53 <ehird> really, really terrible
19:21:58 <ehird> completely detached from meaning
19:21:59 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it wasn't very good
19:22:01 <ehird> I thought you'd like to know
19:22:16 <lament> AnMaster: YOU know what "software is like"
19:22:21 <ehird> #!/bin/sh
19:22:21 <ehird> echo read the README file.
19:22:22 <lament> AnMaster: most people have no idea ta all
19:22:24 <ehird> —plan9/configure
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19:26:01 <AnMaster> lament, the issue here is you (or someone else) is confusing types of objects and instances of those types. When you consider that it applies the same in computing... A specific computer with an installed (multi-user) OS and set up: obscure password, obscure ports for remote access (NEVER put ssh on port 22, using some random high port means a lot less random "scan and brute force" attacks, of course
19:26:01 <AnMaster> you still need other forms or protection)
19:26:17 <lament> i have no idea what you just said.
19:26:18 <AnMaster> but ssh itself, like the lock itself, is available to anyone.
19:26:33 <AnMaster> lament, hm ok. Forget it then
19:27:27 <lament> AnMaster: you significantly overestimate most people's knowledge of computing.
19:28:20 <lament> besides, real-world locks do make use of security through obscurity.
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19:28:36 <lament> namely, if you could see the lock mechanism it would be very easy to break it.
19:29:54 <ehird> mean = fuse (/) (\e s -> s+e) 0 (\_ l -> l+1) 0
19:29:57 <ehird> where
19:29:58 <ehird> fuse :: (a -> b -> c) -> (d -> a -> a) -> a -> (d -> a -> b) -> b -> [d] -> c
19:29:59 <ehird> fuse c f x g y = uncurry c . foldr (\e (a,b) -> (f e a,g e a)) (x,y)
19:30:10 <ehird> and if fuse is the most crazily ugly function you've ever seen, you're right!
19:30:25 <AnMaster> lament, if I want to reverse engineer a normal mechanical tool (no built in chipsets or such, or we are into the software bit) or such, I don't need the blue print usually, I can just get my torx/whatever screwdriver and open it, then move the parts and watch how it works. For example a simple pad-lock, it is rather interesting to open one and see how it actually works. I would say in the software ana
19:30:25 <AnMaster> logy this would mean the source is available but not that easy to find (I have seen a few such projects, open source ones but where you had so search for a while to actually find anything but binary downloads)
19:30:59 <ais523> lament: incorrect
19:31:10 <ais523> knowing how the lock mechanism works doesn't help you break it
19:31:21 <ais523> the password is encoded in hardware, yes, but you don't know the password
19:31:32 <ais523> the actual design of the lock isn't too hard to work out, you just don't know exactly how long the levers are
19:31:39 <AnMaster> lament, but any specific instance of a lock or a software running, would have different arrangements of the small metal bits that they key move, and the software would have different passwords for different users
19:31:43 <lament> ais523: that's actually what i meant by "knowing the mechanism"
19:31:48 <AnMaster> yeah what ais523 said
19:32:08 <lament> why are you trying to convince *ME*
19:32:15 <lament> i KNOW how locks and ssh work.
19:32:20 <ehird> lament is right, you know
19:32:21 <lament> I'm saying that MOST PEOPLE don't
19:32:42 <lament> they have no idea about either metal bits or asymmetric keys.
19:33:03 <AnMaster> lament, I would be surprised if most people had no clue how locks work. I mean most don't know all the details, but they know the general principle surely?
19:33:18 <AnMaster> like that the jagged edges move small metal bits
19:33:31 <AnMaster> so that they align so that you can turn it around
19:33:32 <lament> that's just one kind of lock, by the way - pretty much the most simple one
19:33:40 <AnMaster> lament, yes I know there are other ones
19:34:22 <ehird> *Main> mean []
19:34:22 <ehird> NaN
19:34:22 <ehird> :D
19:34:34 <AnMaster> lament, some move the metal bits to certain positions when you turn the key iirc. (probably padlocks mostly?)
19:35:29 <AnMaster> lament, anyway the general idea is to make the key move something to certain position depending on the shape of the key, and only one such combination of the moving of parts opens the lock
19:35:34 <lament> All most people know about locks is that there's something inside them, and the main reason you can't just make a key for a lock is because you cannot see what that something is.
19:35:41 <lament> Security through obscurity.
19:36:13 <ais523> lament: that's like calling keeping passwords secret security through obscurity
19:36:23 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed
19:36:24 <ais523> the point is to have the smallest possible amount of information obscure
19:36:29 <lament> 6_9
19:36:32 <ais523> and a high information density there
19:36:45 <ais523> typical security through obscurity can often be reverse-engineered
19:36:46 <lament> don't convince me. Convince people who use closed-source cryptography software.
19:38:42 <oerjan> <AnMaster> pirates traditionally have beard too btw
19:38:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes and?
19:39:02 * oerjan suddenly thinks of muslim ninjas
19:40:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, well if there are any European ninjas that would certainly be possible. The concept originated in the eastern parts of Asia though
19:40:39 <oerjan> hm i guess that would be Hashshashins
19:41:05 <AnMaster> ehird, err? I assume there is a pun there, but I have no idea whatsoever what "Hashshashins" is supposed to be
19:41:11 <lament> assassins
19:41:13 <AnMaster> err
19:41:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, ^
19:41:20 <oerjan> no pun
19:41:22 <AnMaster> odd tab
19:41:23 <AnMaster> ah
19:41:25 <AnMaster> I see
19:42:27 <AnMaster> Assassins are certainly similar enough.
19:42:56 <AnMaster> same basic idea, different cultures.
19:44:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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19:44:34 <fizzie> World-famous Hashshashins, such as the 256th Sha, and Mr. Ripe, M.D.
19:44:43 <ehird> fish: Failed to execute process '/usr/bin/grep'. Reason:
19:44:43 <ehird> fish: The total size of the argument and environment lists (7.4MB) exceeds the
19:44:43 <ehird> system limit of 256kB.
19:44:46 <ehird> fish: Please try running the command again with fewer arguments.
19:44:46 <AnMaster> while pirates are not really based on the same idea at all...
19:44:51 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy#In_East_Asia
19:45:43 <AnMaster> ehird, yes what about that?
19:45:51 <ehird> AnMaster: 7.4 megabytes.
19:45:56 <ais523> ehird: how did you manage to give a 7.4MB argument list to grep anyway
19:45:58 <ehird> That's a loong argument list.
19:46:04 <ehird> ais523: 'grep /opt/local /opt/local/**'
19:46:18 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes and? If you can have a 7.4 MB stack then you can have such a large command line on recent linux.
19:46:22 <ais523> ehird: grep -R /opt/local /opt/local
19:46:35 <AnMaster> yes -r is useful
19:46:36 <ehird> ais523: Yes, well, I used find instead.
19:46:38 <ehird> And it phailed.
19:46:42 <ehird> I didn't find what I wanted.
19:46:44 <ehird> Har umph.
19:46:44 <AnMaster> ais523, is -R and -r the same or?
19:46:49 <ais523> AnMaster: yes in the case of grep
19:46:51 <ehird> Does anyone know where $PATH is set globally?
19:46:55 <ais523> -R works on more standard UNIX commands than -r, though
19:47:00 <ehird> the thang isn't in /etc/paths
19:47:09 <AnMaster> ah
19:49:12 <AnMaster> ehird, hm... whatever init file bash reads. Which is something like /etc/profile, /etc/bash/bashrc /etc/bashrc /etc/bash.profile or whatever. Varies a bit with distros. If bash specific ones are used they usually source the global /etc/profile or such
19:49:21 <ehird> It's not bash.
19:49:32 <ehird> It works in all shells, even fish, which can't parse POSIX-shell initialization file.
19:49:33 <ehird> s
19:49:45 <ehird> So it must inherit it from login(1) or something; which gets it from ... where?
19:49:53 <AnMaster> ehird, then I guess it inherits the environment from the starting process
19:50:00 <ehird> login(1).
19:50:04 <ehird> Which gets it where?
19:50:11 <AnMaster> ehird, on OS X maybe it is in that netinfo thingy?
19:50:16 <ehird> I doubt it
19:50:35 <ehird> AnMaster:
19:50:39 <ehird> NetInfo is the system configuration database in NEXTSTEP and Mac OS X versions up through Mac OS X v10.4 "Tiger".
19:50:41 <ehird> Doesn't exist in leopard.
19:50:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I think I remember seeing something about path when trying to debug a problem with a user which was set up to sync files remotely to work.
19:51:04 <AnMaster> ah ok
19:51:09 <AnMaster> yeah it was on tiger
19:51:40 <ehird> It's a unix thing anyway
19:51:47 <ehird> Where does login(1) get its env?
19:51:55 <AnMaster> ehird, even windows have environment variables though
19:52:18 <AnMaster> Your user and group ID will be set according to their values in the /etc/passwd file. The value for $HOME, $SHELL, $PATH, $LOGNAME, and $MAIL are set according to
19:52:18 <AnMaster> the appropriate fields in the password entry. Ulimit, umask and nice values may also be set according to entries in the GECOS field.
19:52:21 <AnMaster> from man login here
19:52:37 <AnMaster> but I wouldn't be surprised if it was implementation defined
19:52:47 <ais523> inherits from init, presumably
19:52:52 <ehird> No init on os x
19:52:53 <fizzie> /etc/login.defs
19:52:58 <ehird> All I know is that /opt/local/bin is in my path in fish and yet fish can't read initialization files
19:52:58 <ais523> oh, from /etc/passwd? that's interesting
19:52:59 <fizzie> ENV_PATH PATH=/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/games
19:53:00 <ehird> so it must be SOMEWHERE
19:53:02 <ehird> I just want to know where
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19:53:08 <AnMaster> ais523, I didn't know about PATH there either
19:53:12 <ehird> fizzie: doesn't exist.
19:53:18 <fizzie> I don't know anything about OS X login(1), though.
19:53:22 <ais523> ehird: there has to be some first process, just because it isn't called init on OSX doesn't prevent it being an init process
19:53:26 <ehird> it's regular bsd login, fizzie
19:53:30 <ehird> ais523: that's irrelevant
19:53:39 <AnMaster> my login.defs has ENV_PATH PATH=/bin:/usr/bin indeed
19:53:40 <ehird> /opt/local/bin entered my path after installing macpotrs
19:53:42 <ehird> no reboot or anything
19:53:48 <ehird> so it has to be in some initialization file
19:53:54 <ehird> I just want to know where so Ic an add my own entry
19:54:27 <fizzie> Well, I don't know anything about BSD login(1) either; the login from Linux shadow-passwords package gets the PATH it sets from /etc/login.defs.
19:55:23 <AnMaster> ENVIRONMENT
19:55:24 <AnMaster> Init sets the following environment variables for all its children:
19:55:24 <AnMaster> PATH /bin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin
19:55:26 <AnMaster> that is on Linux
19:55:33 <AnMaster> and there are some more variables listed there
19:55:42 <AnMaster> like CONSOLE, RUNLEVEL and a few others
19:55:56 <fizzie> On Linux, the PAM stuff also mangles with the environment; there's in my pam.d a 'login' file doing "session required pam_env.so readenv=1 envfile=/etc/default/locale" and one without envfile which reads /etc/environment in.
19:56:04 <AnMaster> ah yes pam indeed...
19:56:06 <AnMaster> forgot about that
19:56:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, iirc using pam means most of the stuff in login.defs isn't used in fact
19:56:42 <ehird> Gr, at this rate i'll just read the macports source
19:56:59 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I think the bottom line is that it is mostly implementation defined
19:57:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I remember freebsd has some /etc/login.conf or something
19:57:13 <ehird> Yes, and i'm specifically interested in *this implementation*
19:57:37 <ehird> (/u/l/plan9) grep -R /opt/local /etc
19:57:41 <ehird> just returns /etc/shells
19:57:49 <ehird> containing two entries [zsh and fish]
19:58:01 <fizzie> I don't suppose you have a /etc/path.d/ either? Someone says Leopard does that.
19:58:02 <AnMaster> ehird, freebsd has it in /etc/login.conf
19:58:07 <AnMaster> :path=/sbin /bin /usr/sbin /usr/bin /usr/games /usr/local/sbin /usr/local/bin /usr/X11R6/bin ~/bin:\
19:58:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, that's freebsd.
19:58:14 <AnMaster> from that file on a freebsd system
19:58:19 <ehird> fizzie: nope.
19:58:22 <AnMaster> ehird, well since OS X is BSDish?
19:58:27 <AnMaster> I thought it would be useful
19:58:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Did you miss the part where I grepped all of /etc?
19:58:37 <AnMaster> ah ok
19:58:37 <ehird> ehird: (/u/l/plan9) grep -R /opt/local /etc
19:58:37 <ehird> 18:57 ehird: just returns /etc/shells
19:58:39 <ehird> 18:57
19:58:56 <AnMaster> ehird, btw login.conf has this comment in it:
19:58:57 <AnMaster> # Remember to rebuild the database after each change to this file:
19:58:58 <AnMaster> #
19:58:58 <AnMaster> # cap_mkdb /etc/login.conf
19:59:02 <AnMaster> why a DB I wonder...
19:59:07 <fizzie> ehird: Maybe they have encrypted it by xorring it with 0x42, and decrypt on run-time. So you can't find it with grep. Security!
19:59:18 <ehird> fizzie: :o
19:59:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, why 0x42?
19:59:27 <ehird> AnMaster: answer to life, the un
19:59:30 <ehird> oh fuck it.
19:59:33 <ehird> not worth the bother.
19:59:33 <AnMaster> ehird, no it isn't
19:59:46 <AnMaster> ehird, that would be in base 10
19:59:51 <ehird> sigh
19:59:55 <AnMaster> $ echo $(( 0x42 ))
19:59:55 <AnMaster> 66
19:59:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: I just thought it'd be something else than 42. memfrob() does 42_10, though.
19:59:58 <ehird> you are mistaking pedanticism for humour.
20:00:04 <ehird> it's irritating. stop it.
20:00:25 <AnMaster> what.... memfrob() actually exists?
20:00:27 <ehird> ) grep -R /opt/local / # doo doo doo
20:00:28 <ais523> AnMaster: yes
20:00:30 <ehird> AnMaster: ... yes ...
20:00:32 <AnMaster> SYNOPSIS
20:00:32 <AnMaster> #define _GNU_SOURCE
20:00:32 <AnMaster> #include <string.h>
20:00:32 <AnMaster> void *memfrob(void *s, size_t n);
20:00:34 <AnMaster> why on earth...
20:00:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: On glibc, yes.
20:00:39 <ehird> do you actually use c ?
20:00:41 <AnMaster> it is completely useless
20:00:41 <ais523> it's used to hide string constants in executables
20:01:02 <AnMaster> ais523, err, not a very good protection
20:01:13 <fizzie> AnMaster: Hey, they've got strfry(3) too.
20:01:13 <AnMaster> some sort of joke I assume?
20:01:36 <fizzie> It's not like that one is very useful in most cases either.
20:01:37 <ais523> AnMaster: not really, it's not for security
20:01:42 <ais523> just to prevent people casually reading the binaries
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20:02:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, at least that is slightly less useless. Randomising order of a string can actually be useful sometimes (shuffling an array of non-zero bytes representing a card deck?)
20:03:01 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:04:11 <fizzie> Well, 42 is 0b101010, if you're working with 6-pixels-wide monochrome images with a single scanline per byte (like might be in a custom bitmap font or something) you can conveniently use memfrob() to toggle every second pixel, to, well, get an effect of sorts.
20:04:24 <AnMaster> ais523, sure but why? It would be trivial to extract the strings. nm -D ./binary | grep memfrob, if found do something like write a tool that runs xor on a stream and then pipe the output into strings
20:04:37 <fizzie> That's not "casual", really.
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20:05:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I guess that depends on your definition. I assume that somewhere exists a generic "run xor on a file/stream/whatever" type tool, I just have no idea what the name would be. I tried xor<tab> without any success.
20:05:55 <AnMaster> I mean there are things for sorting, unique lines, and what not
20:06:20 <fizzie> I wouldn't really be that sure.
20:06:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, it probably isn't POSIX indeed. But anyway it would be rather trivial to write one that memfrobs a file and outputs the result to stdout.
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20:08:48 <fizzie> Yes, well, it's perl -ne 'print join("", map { chr(ord ^ 42) } split //);' as a perl-oneliner, but that's still not casual browsing.
20:08:52 <AnMaster> to make it more useful you could have it do and, or and such as well, and take different length of constant to repeat, like multi-byte ones. Or even allow operating on two streams
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20:09:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, casual browsing of a binary for me would mean strings, readelf, objdump, ldd, nm and a few other tools
20:10:09 <zzo38> Now see the CLCLC-INTERCAL page! It now does a lot of new stuff with backtracking and namespaces and various other things.
20:10:15 <AnMaster> zzo38, link?
20:10:21 <ehird> bOFFE
20:10:22 <ehird> ]EXFN
20:10:25 <zzo38> The page on the wiki.
20:10:33 <zzo38> In other words: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/CLCLC-INTERCAL
20:10:53 <AnMaster> ehird, hm... looks like normal output of strings
20:10:59 <ehird> bOS
20:10:59 <ehird> REX
20:11:01 <ehird> YZOKA
20:11:03 <ehird> CY
20:11:05 <ehird> KI^_KFFS
20:11:07 <ehird> ZXO^^S
20:11:09 <ehird> MEEN
20:11:24 <AnMaster> ehird, you are not interesting enough to try to decrypt
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20:11:46 <zzo38> And I added SWAP to the list of quantumable commands
20:11:47 <fizzie> Yes, 42 seems to be rather nice number wrt. generating printable output from printable input; obviously since it's that 0b101010.
20:12:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, also I would usually not run strings or anything on a binary I'm not interested in. I guess I simply don't have a "casual" level of checking such things
20:12:05 <fizzie> In retrospect perl -ne 'print pack("C*", map { $_^42 } unpack("C*", $_));' might've been more perly.
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20:12:40 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, I don't really associate the word "causal" with you anyway.
20:12:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, huh is that a good or bad thing?
20:13:07 <fizzie> I'm not sure.
20:13:15 <ehird> AnMaster is srs bssnz
20:13:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, are you saying I'm more of a "all or nothing" person or something?
20:13:51 <AnMaster> ehird, well I guess I'm unusually normal for being in this channel :/
20:14:23 <fizzie> Anyway, some people might run 'strings' on a random binary, and if not finding anything interesting, not continue with a deeper analysis. I'm sure I've done that with some sort of firmware imagey or whatever, for which it is not immediately obvious how it splits into component pieces.
20:14:31 <zzo38> Do you think the namespaces specification is good? And what about the backtracking specification?
20:14:40 <ehird> namespaces? For INTERCAL?!
20:14:50 <fizzie> Admittedly those tend to be compressed anyway.
20:15:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I would start with "file", always.
20:15:10 <ehird> fizzie: \5a}|{~5K5%w%$%$%$5egzq`vpf5xzgp5eyptf|{r5gpf`yaf;
20:15:13 <AnMaster> well,*
20:15:32 <AnMaster> ehird, base64 or something like that?
20:15:35 <zzo38> Yes namespaces in INTERCAL. But you have to use numbers for the namespaces, like everything else in INTERCAL. If you want to use actual words, you can of course define syntax for those words to mean those numbers.
20:15:38 <ais523> zzo38: most of the namespacing suggestions for INTERCAL have involved mingles
20:15:44 <AnMaster> hm no
20:16:29 <AnMaster> zzo38, is there an implementation or is it just a draft?
20:16:33 <zzo38> I wanted CLCLC-INTERCAL to be insane and useful, rather than insane and useless like every other INTERCAL that exists.
20:16:42 <zzo38> This is just a draft so far.
20:16:49 <AnMaster> ah
20:16:51 <ehird> hey, INTERCAL is useful!
20:16:54 <ehird> there's even INTERNET
20:17:02 <AnMaster> ehird, CLC I assume?
20:17:05 <ehird> yes
20:17:12 <AnMaster> what does it do?
20:17:18 <ehird> networking
20:17:25 <ehird> it stands for INTERcal NETworking
20:17:27 <ehird> iirc
20:17:30 <AnMaster> ehird, what... that is too straightforward to be interesting
20:17:31 <ehird> it's based on data theft.
20:17:38 <ehird> AnMaster: it's the clashing
20:17:40 <zzo38> CLC has INTERNET (INTERCAL networking). CLCLC does something similar too, but mostly for parallel computing across the network
20:17:43 <ehird> with the existing related but not the same term
20:18:34 <AnMaster> zzo38, hm what about somehow adding a twisted version of vector processing (think SSE, Altivec and such) but that does something totally different
20:18:45 <ais523> AnMaster: INTERNET is not at all straightforward
20:18:46 <AnMaster> or something related but silly
20:18:54 <zzo38> For example, CLC-INTERCAL has a CASE command. But CLCLC-INTERCAL doesn't have a CASE command, you have to use the FIND command instead.
20:18:56 <AnMaster> ais523, it is related to networking, that is too close
20:19:02 <ais523> too close to what?
20:19:04 <ehird> AnMaster: I think you don't "get" intercal naming.
20:19:23 <ais523> AnMaster: INTERNET != the Internet
20:19:28 <ais523> in fact, it mostly works over LANs
20:19:30 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed!
20:19:31 <zzo38> Describe twisted version of vector processing or provide a link. Maybe I will think about it
20:19:35 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm aware of this
20:19:38 <ais523> you have to jump through various hoops to get it to work over the internet at large
20:19:43 <AnMaster> but, it is still related to networking
20:19:51 * ehird facepalm
20:20:13 <AnMaster> zzo38, I don't know really
20:20:21 <AnMaster> it was just a fragment of an idea
20:20:31 <zzo38> INTERCAL networking is not very useful over the internet. It is more useful for parallel computing in different rooms on different terminals where different result will be put, possibly with different data entry on each one.
20:20:40 <ehird> zzo38: very plan9
20:20:42 <AnMaster> but the lectures in CLC...
20:20:57 <zzo38> What about the lectures in CLC?
20:20:57 <AnMaster> now that is a good case of twisting object orientation IMO
20:21:29 <zzo38> I agree that is a good case of twisting object orientation. Now, CLCLC has nearly identical lecture system
20:21:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: If file prints "data" (like xor-"encrypting" a whole file might easily make it do), and strings does not reveal anything intelligent, and you're not seriously interested in the file anyway (for example, it's a firmware upgrade to a device you don't self have), I find it very believable to just forget about it right there and then; in which case the memfrob has really served its purpose, and kept a causal interested person away. (Please don't start w
20:21:37 <fizzie> ith a debate whether it makes sense to discourage curiosity like that, it's not really relevant.)
20:21:38 <AnMaster> nice
20:21:42 <ehird> I prefer Objectivist systems.
20:21:47 <zzo38> That is one reason I kept it but there are other reasons as well to keep certain things and discard others.
20:22:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, why would I even download a firmware upgrade for a device I don't own?
20:22:47 <AnMaster> hm...
20:22:51 <zzo38> I have downloaded firmware upgrades for devices I don't own! Guess why if you want to. Or I will tell you if you ask
20:22:51 <fizzie> AnMaster: Because someone was talking about it, and you got curious? That's what happened to me, once.
20:22:57 <ehird> zzo38: <ask>
20:23:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, I see...
20:23:39 <zzo38> I downloaded firmware upgrades for Texas Instruments graphing calculators so that I may run software for those calculators on an emulator on my computer. (Texas Instruments provides downloads, so you may look there)
20:23:48 <AnMaster> ah
20:24:11 <AnMaster> zzo38, what model? I believe I have TI-83+ firmware file around somewhere (since I do own such a calculator=
20:24:14 <AnMaster> s/=/)/
20:24:41 <zzo38> Various models, depending on what model the software that I want to run is written for.
20:24:47 <AnMaster> though it was years ago I last looked for an upgrade for it
20:25:11 <AnMaster> about screen says version 1.19
20:25:44 <zzo38> The only TI calculator I actually own is the TI-92 calculator. And a lot of software is not written for the TI-92 so I get the firmware from Texas Instruments and run it in a emulator
20:27:54 <fizzie> The batteries of my TI-86 had given out, couldn't check what the self-test screen says about version.
20:28:37 <zzo38> Maybe I should add a command in CLCLC-INTERCAL for taking a array full of EBCDIC characters, and appending that to the end of the program source-code and then recompiling.
20:28:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah, the batteries in my TI-83+ seems to last forever...
20:29:26 <AnMaster> 3 years since I replaced them last time, and I used it a lot since then
20:29:30 <AnMaster> still nowhere near empty
20:29:45 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
20:29:48 <zzo38> Also, I don't like that the CREATE command in CLC-INTERCAL uses ASCII numbers, so in CLCLC-INTERCAL it uses EBCDIC numbers instead (even if the source-code is in ASCII).
20:29:52 <AnMaster> four of those AAA batteries
20:29:59 <fizzie> I haven't used that calculator since that DSP course (I'm not sure if you were here for the story?) and I think the batteries were el-cheapo rechargeables, the magic tends to leak out even when not used.
20:30:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't sound familiar no
20:30:49 <AnMaster> these are non-rechargeable ones from IKEA btw
20:31:02 -!- cherez has joined.
20:31:04 <AnMaster> alkaline
20:31:08 -!- cherez has left (?).
20:31:51 <AnMaster> what on earth is "flash upgradeable ROM"...?
20:32:07 <fizzie> The story was pretty long, but if you're feeling bored, it's at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.03.06 starting from 05:38:03 (about the ti86.png picture).
20:32:25 <AnMaster> it isn't ROM if it is flashable. Then it is flash memory
20:32:39 <ais523> ehird: what's 0x1f XOR 42 decimal?
20:32:43 <zzo38> AnMaster: Well it is flash-ROM I guess, because flash-ROM can be erased and reprogrammed (I think)
20:32:50 <ehird> ais523: 123456789
20:32:58 <ehird> But srsly, 53
20:32:58 <ais523> ehird: I don't think so, that's rather high
20:33:05 <AnMaster> zzo38, seems a bit odd to call something rewritable "ROM"
20:33:09 <fizzie> Yes, Flash can be considered a subtype of EEPROM, and that's a subtype of ROM.
20:33:25 <AnMaster> well ok, true
20:33:52 <zzo38> I know, ROM means read-only memory but it is read-only during run-time, it is only that it is re-flashable at certain times, so it is mostly ROM (but not completely)
20:34:06 <ehird> yay, I have plan9 userspace
20:34:45 <zzo38> Post suggestions on [[Talk:CLCLC-INTERCAL]] if you have any interesting ones
20:34:52 <AnMaster> zzo38, flash memory in TI-83+ (which this was about) can be written to at runtime, you just press "move from ram to flash" in some menu under the mem meny
20:34:52 <AnMaster> menu*
20:36:02 <ehird> wha
20:36:02 <ehird> whoa
20:36:10 <ehird> 'tar xf' figures out gzip or bzip
20:36:28 <AnMaster> 05:40:23 <oklopol> i have a hard time not asking personal questions from each and everyone here all the time, and you think i don't want to hear a spänking story <-- spänking?
20:36:41 <ehird> XDD
20:36:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, is that some fi word?
20:36:50 * ehird rofl
20:36:54 <AnMaster> ehird, what?
20:38:22 <AnMaster> oh I see it is explained below
20:38:51 -!- cherez has joined.
20:39:04 -!- cherez has left (?).
20:42:00 <zzo38> There are two new registers the CHOICE register and the () register
20:42:47 <zzo38> Maybe I should add a FUNCTION register, together with DEFINE command and various other things, for doing functional programming
20:43:24 <AnMaster> hm ineiros (found in that log) never talks otherwise it seems?
20:44:06 <oerjan> you should also have a LIFE register, so you don't disgust half the users by being PRO-CHOICE
20:44:36 <ehird> groan
20:44:57 <ehird> AnMaster: ineiros is friend-of the- fizzie I think
20:45:29 <zzo38> OK, how exactly should the LIFE register work?
20:45:48 <ehird> the opposite of CHOICE.
20:46:11 <zzo38> And what exactly would the opposite of the CLCLC-INTERCAL CHOICE register be anyways?
20:46:34 <oerjan> well, that's LIFE
20:46:51 <zzo38> The CHOICE register has something to do with backtracking, so the opposite, which is LIFE, does it have something to do with fronttracking maybe?
20:47:23 <ehird> yes!
20:47:24 <ehird> front tracking
20:47:56 <zzo38> OK, and how should front tracking work?
20:49:01 <AnMaster> it would contain the coordinates of the front of the attached turtle robot?
20:49:06 <AnMaster> (not a very good idea
20:49:11 <AnMaster> )
20:49:37 <oerjan> well why not, there's always a need for a graphics system
20:49:58 <zzo38> No, it won't be the attached turtle robot, that is not a very good idea, just like you say.
20:50:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, how many do you know who owns such a turtle robot?
20:50:18 <oerjan> approximately zero
20:50:25 <AnMaster> same here
20:50:29 <AnMaster> anyway you could have a virtual one
20:50:34 <AnMaster> like TURT in befunge
20:50:36 <zzo38> Of course there is a need for a graphics system but that could be a namespace such as DO NAMESPACE #123 AS ,GRAPHICS,
20:50:42 <AnMaster> but that would be way too straight forward
20:51:16 <oerjan> now the front is clearly the screen, i think i see the beginning of a GUI replacement here...
20:51:36 <tombom> have it interface with an ai turtle. with mood swings
20:51:53 <zzo38> No, front-tracking should be something like the opposite of back-tracking, not something having to do with screen and such things as that
20:52:24 <AnMaster> hm snowstorm now
20:52:26 <AnMaster> unusual
20:52:33 <AnMaster> (this time of the year I mean)
20:52:42 <oerjan> you are letting reason get in the way of a good pun. i am insulted. D;
20:52:48 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, I and ineiros attend the same university. Although he said something else in 2008-12, at least.
20:53:14 <AnMaster> heh
20:53:43 <AnMaster> 06:28:47 <fizzie> How can you make even an oscilloscope sound dirty?
20:53:45 <AnMaster> hahah
20:53:52 <oerjan> AnMaster: i'm sure it's because i declared spring to have come the other day. next day it started snowing, stupid me.
20:54:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, over in Norway too?
20:54:06 <AnMaster> hm
20:54:52 <oerjan> well obviously some places in norway would have snow at this time, it _is_ a mountainous country stretching to the arctic after all.
20:55:14 <oerjan> but trondheim is fairly coastal.
20:55:16 <fizzie> Also in Finland, except it started snowing today just a little bit, and the forecast is predicting more snow tomorrow. After a week of mostly non-sub-zero temperatures and very pre-Spring-like weather.
20:56:55 <fizzie> Finnish Meteorological Institute forecast says that it'll be -15°C here during Wed/Thu night. That's not really usual, it's almost April and everything.
20:57:47 <AnMaster> huh... currently there is (melting) snow on the upper part of the window in this room. It is under a balcony. Conclusion: snow nowdays fall horizontally...
20:58:02 <AnMaster> so much I can't even see out clearly
20:58:58 * oerjan checks his window
20:59:42 <oerjan> it seems to be filled with some black stuff. tends to happen at night time here.
20:59:52 <oerjan> except in the summer.
21:01:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, very funny...
21:01:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, there are streetlights outside here however
21:02:44 <zzo38> I'm not sure, but do you think the last example on the wiki CLCLC-INTERCAL is sensible or does anything even a little bit useful? It doesn't matter because it is just a example but I want opinion anyways
21:03:28 <oerjan> well there are some lights but not enough to make out whether there is snow in the window
21:03:32 <AnMaster> zzo38, ask ais523 I guess.
21:03:44 <ais523> I'm busy in RL
21:03:55 <ais523> and not really up to trying to understand yet another dialect of INTERCAL
21:04:05 <ais523> especially one without an implementation so I can't look at the source code to figure out corner cases
21:04:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, I have a lamp in the window. Very common you know
21:04:16 <zzo38> Then ask a person who likes to be insane
21:04:19 <AnMaster> hanging down from above
21:04:30 <oerjan> how quaint
21:04:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, what? Is it unusual over where you live or something?
21:04:49 <oerjan> ok there seems to be no snow in the window, although there is on the ground
21:05:06 <zzo38> I think the codes I wrote is really mostly WHILE from CLC-INTERCAL and backtracking from the backtracking INTERCAL, it doesn't do much else
21:05:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, there is on ground too here
21:05:34 <oerjan> it's a conspiracy i tell you
21:05:54 <AnMaster> backtracking from the backtracking <-- sounds like fronttracking, but while looking in the other direction
21:06:27 <AnMaster> zzo38, there you have it. front tracking is backtracking from backtracking but looking in the direction of travel!
21:06:31 <AnMaster> issue solved
21:06:44 <zzo38> I meant backtracking is from the [[Backtracking INTERCAL]] specification, mostly anyways (but CLCLC-INTERCAL also has two new registers for dealing with backtracking, CHOICE and () registers)
21:07:03 <AnMaster> zzo38, duh... My interpretation was way more interesting!
21:07:26 <zzo38> OK, thanks, but I'm still not sure what it means to backtrack backtracking while looking in the direction of travel, if I think about it a bit more maybe I will understand
21:07:45 <AnMaster> zzo38, I'm not sure what it would mean in the context of programming either
21:07:55 <AnMaster> or any other context
21:08:31 <AnMaster> zzo38, but don't you think backtracking from backtracking would sufficiently twisted to fit into intercal perfectly?
21:08:36 <zzo38> You're right.
21:08:45 <ehird> zzo38: well, let's define backtracking
21:08:59 <ehird> Backtracking: Going back to a previous point in the program state and continuing from there.
21:09:00 <AnMaster> ehird, in the common prolog style sense or some other sense?
21:09:07 <ehird> Front tracking: Going forwards to a future point in the program state and continuing from there.
21:09:12 <ehird> So front tracking... is time travel.
21:09:13 <zzo38> Yes, backtracking from backtracking would sufficiently be twisted to fit into INTERCAL. But first we have to think of what exactly it means and how it works and stuff like that.
21:09:17 <ehird> To actually implement it, zzo38,
21:09:23 <ehird> You just wait until the future state arrives
21:09:28 <ehird> Then, rewind to where you set up the front tracking
21:09:35 <ehird> Then, jump to the future state direct from there
21:09:35 <ais523> it's simple enough
21:09:35 <ehird> and continue
21:09:36 <AnMaster> ah nice idea
21:09:40 <ais523> at least, to backtrack backtracking
21:09:46 <ehird> ais523: I think my idea is better
21:09:48 <ais523> backtracking follows a distinct path through the program
21:09:49 <ehird> it really is the opposite of backtracking
21:09:52 <ais523> if you rewind it, that's metabacktracking
21:09:53 <ehird> it's also time travel, which is awesome
21:10:01 <ehird> also, I'm not sure how useful it is
21:10:03 <ehird> but I feel like it could be
21:10:08 <ais523> isn't your definition of fronttracking a no-op/
21:10:17 <zzo38> Yes, interesting idea. And the LIFE register will have something to do with it too. Possibly with commands like GO FORWARD and stuff like that.
21:10:23 <ehird> ais523: nope
21:10:39 <ehird> ais523: it is if you view backtracking as just "jumping to a previous point"
21:10:40 <ehird> but it's more than that
21:10:55 <ehird> if you read it a few times I think it becomes clearer, although god knows it's an insane idea even then
21:11:08 <ais523> ehird: backtracking's "reverting to a previous state"
21:11:20 <ais523> reverting to a future state does the same thing as just running to that point
21:11:30 <ais523> actually, the only point in backtracking is that you get information from the future, so to speak
21:11:31 <AnMaster> what about a train analogy ehird? Backtracking would be backing up from a dead end to last switch to select another path (and continue to switch before is you tried all paths and so on), Backtracking from backtracking would be backing the other way that you backtracked from, somewhat like continuations to a previous backtracking state maybe.
21:11:33 <ais523> telling you not to go that way
21:11:38 <ehird> ais523: if we describe backtracking's use as "the assumptions are incorrect!", then fronttracking's use is "make the assumptions correct"
21:11:43 <ehird> which fits in with what i asid
21:11:52 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, but what is fronttracking?
21:11:53 <zzo38> Of course it will be different than a no-op if you use the CHOICE register, LIFE register, and quantum computing, then it probably will not be a no-op.
21:12:21 <zzo38> Yes, and even something for making the assumptions correct.
21:12:26 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure how direction of going (reversing or going forward) would translate to programming...
21:12:40 <ehird> mixing multiple front tracks and back tracks would be fun
21:12:43 <AnMaster> ehird, front tracking would be turning around the train and going forward to do it
21:13:03 <ehird> like, the INTERCAL form of "Make the assumptions are correct. If the assumptions are correct: they are incorrect! Otherwise, they are correct."
21:13:06 <ehird> **FREEZE**
21:13:57 <AnMaster> heh
21:13:59 <AnMaster> hm
21:14:06 <AnMaster> what about a train based esolang
21:14:17 <AnMaster> like you program by drawing a track layout and switches and so on
21:14:21 <ehird> AnMaster: it will be touring complete
21:14:22 <tombom> i saw a path-style one which described itself like that
21:14:24 <AnMaster> and setting trains and stops and such
21:14:26 <tombom> can't remember the name
21:14:27 <tombom> hahaha
21:14:28 <AnMaster> ehird, AUGH!
21:14:49 <ehird> AnMaster: have multiple types of train and name the control structure ones touring machines
21:14:53 <AnMaster> I think it should be combined with something like OpenTTD or whatever for the best effect
21:15:00 <tombom> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Rail
21:15:27 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I have no idea how you would program in such a language
21:15:35 <AnMaster> I mean, how to calculate anything
21:15:51 * AnMaster reads the link
21:16:25 <AnMaster> "Third, Rail is in many respects a functional language. It provides LISP-style lists, garbage collection, and immutable values" err...?
21:16:29 * AnMaster read on
21:16:32 <AnMaster> reads*
21:18:15 <AnMaster> interesting but different from what I had in mind. My idea was something like OpenTTD or Simutrans turned into a programming language...
21:18:43 <tombom> yeah i just remembered it as describing itself similarly, it's not too similar in execution
21:18:49 <AnMaster> indeed
21:19:16 <fizzie> I assume I've mentioned the OpenTTD logic gate thing?
21:19:21 <ehird> http://zem.fi/ttd_logic/
21:19:21 <ehird> damn
21:19:23 <ehird> fizzie
21:19:24 <ehird> ya beat me
21:19:30 <fizzie> Well, you had a link.
21:19:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't openttd need some sort of data files from a closed game?
21:19:46 * AnMaster uses simutrans
21:19:51 <tombom> yes
21:20:01 <tombom> i think they were very slowly working on replacements last time i checked
21:20:06 <ehird> 'a closed game'; dude, transport tycoon is awesome
21:20:08 <ehird> dont' be so harsh :(
21:20:18 <fizzie> AnMaster: I've been told it can nowadays run completely with their replacement "newgrf" files, with some manual hackery and some tiny bugs.
21:20:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, are you using path based signaling?
21:20:41 <AnMaster> iirc openttd didn't have that until recently
21:20:53 <AnMaster> while simutrans have it as the only mode since ages
21:21:15 <AnMaster> ehird, it may be awesome, but I don't have it, thus I can't use it
21:21:29 <fizzie> I used the "new pathfinding", which was in openttd SVN when I was doing that stuff; but the release was back then, and they're in something like 0.6.x nowadays.
21:22:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, I recently (yesterday) read on their wiki that NPF was superseded(sp?) by YAPF
21:22:17 <fizzie> That's not surprising.
21:22:25 <fizzie> It was "new" quite some time ago.
21:22:34 <fizzie> I think I heard about YAPF too.
21:22:37 <ehird> http://zem.fi/ttd_logic/ttd_4adder.png woah.
21:22:53 <tombom> is that the 9000x6000 image?
21:22:57 <fizzie> tombom: Yes.
21:23:02 <tombom> it almost crashed my browser, 512mb ram sucks
21:23:07 <ehird> 512MB?!
21:23:09 <ehird> WHAT THE FUCK
21:23:12 <tombom> awesome though
21:23:12 <fizzie> Well, 9136x5504, it's not *that* big.
21:23:12 <ehird> Do you live in africa or something
21:23:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, I see. Anyway OpenTTD seems to me to be much more "game" than "simulator", while simutrans is much less of a game, there are people trying to make it simulate more accurately
21:23:26 <AnMaster> anyway that is the impression I got
21:23:30 <tombom> :I i just haven't updated in 5 years
21:23:49 <tombom> yeah that's probably right
21:24:16 <fizzie> ehird: The funny part is that there's a farm under the middle gate (labeled "_or1"); the buildings got completely overwritten by the copy-paste kludge I did so I wouldn't have to build all those tracks, but the actual fields of grain are still going strong.
21:24:27 <ehird> :D
21:24:34 <fizzie> (The scenario editor didn't let me make a map without a single industry.)
21:24:52 <ehird> tombom: 5 years ago 512MB still sucked :P
21:25:02 <tombom> i know, i know :( oh well
21:25:09 <tombom> it does well enough
21:25:15 <AnMaster> the file is 3.2 MB according to gimp
21:25:16 <AnMaster> hm
21:25:30 <AnMaster> no I didn't open it in browser because that would certainly crash yes
21:25:48 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, yes, it's unashamedly a game. Although train-enthusiasts do keep making graphics sets for all kinds of (mostly German, I think) existing real hardware.
21:26:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, built in random disasters? The difference between OpenTTD and Simutrans reminds me of the difference between a game where you fly aircrafts and a real flight simulator
21:27:16 <AnMaster> that huge image looks like a circuit board when zoomed out heh
21:27:34 <AnMaster> 9.09% zoom according to gimp
21:27:47 <zzo38> What would happen if you used the LIFE register as a namespace?
21:28:33 <zzo38> And since CHOICE can be used as a namespace, maybe if you should be allowed to use the NAMESPACE command to make the choicepoint a different namespace? That's weird.
21:28:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, clocking signals?
21:29:19 <ehird> 20:27 zzo38: What would happen if you used the LIFE register as a namespace?
21:29:23 <ehird> the namespace would only exist in the future?
21:29:48 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, well, that was for the not-so-well-working "single track, occupied == 1, free == 0" thing. I couldn't figure out a way to make the trains not get stuck with the limited tools I had available without using a specific manual clocking thing to toggle the movements.
21:30:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah
21:30:12 <fizzie> AnMaster: The larger pictures use a "two tracks, one for 0, one for 1" signaling, which didn't need that.
21:30:24 <AnMaster> I see
21:30:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, did you disable the disaster option? ;)
21:31:03 <fizzie> Yes, probably. As it says, it takes two months of game-time for the carry information to ripple down in that four-bit ripple-carry adder.
21:31:23 <fizzie> I would advise against using a real-life version of that in a performance-critical application.
21:31:41 <fizzie> Although it would be CRAZY AWESOME to see all those trains going 'round and 'round.
21:31:45 <ehird> haha
21:31:47 <zzo38> I guess that might work, the namespace can exist only in the future. And if #0 is the current real namespace then using DO NAMESPACE #0 AS ,SOMETHINGELSE, might make the current program's registers and labels the same ones in the library, causing a whole bunch of confusion.
21:32:01 <ehird> fizzie: it could be funded by tourists who come and see it and get around the place with the trains
21:32:03 <ehird> the train fares
21:32:06 <fizzie> (To add 7 and 13 together. And get 4 out of it.)
21:32:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh
21:32:16 <ehird> 7
21:32:17 <ehird> +
21:32:18 <ehird> 13
21:32:20 <ehird> =
21:32:22 <ehird> 4
21:32:24 <ehird> It's a new mathematics.
21:32:47 <AnMaster> ehird, building tracks is expensive though :/
21:33:15 <fizzie> Actually I guess there's the carry from the MSB too, so it'd be 20 if you read it right.
21:33:40 <zzo38> It isn't a new mathematics, it seems if it is a 4-bit adder than you would get 7+13=4 because that's what it is if you are limited to 4-bits.
21:33:58 <ehird> Shush that's too logical :-)
21:34:10 <ehird> Everyone knows that adding is just xor with lameo hand-holding carrys anyway.
21:34:31 <zzo38> ehird: Especially INTERCAL programmers
21:34:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is something strange in that picture around 5782,3748
21:34:35 <ehird> Exactly!
21:34:50 <AnMaster> that is pixel as gimp says it
21:35:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, green bits above the track?
21:35:10 <ehird> rm -f -rf docbook-cheat-sheet/
21:35:10 <ehird> /usr/bin/xsltproc --stringparam base.dir docbook-cheat-sheet/ \
21:35:12 <ehird> --stringparam use.id.as.filename 1 \
21:35:13 <fizzie> The ttd_4adder.png seems to depict 0b1011 + 0b1001 = 0b10100.
21:35:14 <ehird> --stringparam html.stylesheet fptools.css \
21:35:16 <ehird> --stringparam toc.section.depth 3 --stringparam section.autolabel 1 --stringparam section.label.includes.component.label 1 \
21:35:19 <ehird> /html/chunk.xsl docbook-cheat-sheet.xml
21:35:21 <ehird> warning: failed to load external entity "/html/chunk.xsl"
21:35:23 <ehird> cannot parse /html/chunk.xsl
21:35:25 <ehird> make[2]: *** [docbook-cheat-sheet/index.html] Error 4
21:35:27 <ehird> oops
21:35:28 <fizzie> AnMaster: I have it open in a browser, but I'll try to navigate there.
21:35:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm ok I have it in gimp. It is near the label Sum2
21:36:06 <AnMaster> between Sum2 and _xor2b
21:36:17 <fizzie> Okay, I found Sum2.
21:36:44 <fizzie> Oh, and there's _xor2b. So what exactly is the strangeness?
21:37:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, between them, close to sum2 there is a single track going horizontally splitting into multiple tracks going in 90 degrees from it
21:37:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, some tracks have holes in with grass
21:37:55 <AnMaster> seems useless to have nothing there, also the turn track indicates there should be something there
21:38:07 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, that's the switchboard. The gate is a generic two-input logic gate, and you use that part to wire what binary operation you want the gate to perform.
21:38:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, so you remove a tile there then?
21:38:51 <fizzie> Well, place a tile or remove a tile, I guess it depends on your point of view. Certainly (for a fixed operation) you could make a smaller gate.
21:38:54 <AnMaster> FireyFly, wouldn't the turn bit on the edge change to an end bit then?
21:39:03 <FireyFly> fizzie, ^
21:39:10 <FireyFly> Will AnMaster soon write
21:39:18 <AnMaster> ah yes
21:39:20 <FireyFly> :D
21:39:29 <fizzie> That there is wired to perform a xor, by connecting the middle two tracks (corresponding to (0,1) and (1,0) inputs) into the "1" output, and the outermost ones ((1,1) and (0,0) inputs) into the "0" output.
21:39:35 <AnMaster> FireyFly, fi<tab> should complete fizzie not you :/
21:39:44 <AnMaster> FireyFly, it was like that for months before you came
21:39:45 <FireyFly> :(
21:39:52 <AnMaster> ;P
21:39:56 <FireyFly> Excuse me for being here :|
21:39:58 <FireyFly> :D
21:40:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, in simutrans if you remove a track that is branching from a straight track the branching bit on the straight track is removed too
21:40:30 <AnMaster> but not so in OpenTTD?
21:40:54 <fizzie> That sounds strange, what if you just want to remove one piece and make it continue to some other direction?
21:41:32 <fizzie> Maybe I'm not grasping the paradigm here.
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21:42:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, I mean, err see the bend like:
21:42:23 <AnMaster> ---
21:42:24 <AnMaster> /
21:42:24 <AnMaster> -------
21:42:24 <AnMaster> | |
21:42:25 <AnMaster> | | | |
21:42:27 <AnMaster> that?
21:42:29 <AnMaster> err
21:42:31 <AnMaster> irc client fail
21:42:34 <AnMaster> it ate the /
21:42:37 -!- Slereah has joined.
21:42:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://rafb.net/p/cE6qvd71.html
21:42:57 <AnMaster> that?
21:43:18 <fizzie> Yes, I see that.
21:43:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, the / is part of the straight track there as you can see
21:43:46 <AnMaster> that is where the actual turn bit is
21:44:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, when you removed those bits there in simutrans it would end up looking like this instead: http://rafb.net/p/L6Pa8567.html
21:44:32 <AnMaster> as in the track is transformed to a straight one
21:45:42 -!- olsner has joined.
21:45:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, simutrans has special "end bit" tracks added at the end of straight tracks, which fills half the tile and has one of those bumper thingies on it
21:45:58 <AnMaster> all track ends look like that
21:46:03 <fizzie> Well, OpenTTD's track editing is pretty "low-level" in the sense that the /s are separate bits of track you can place pretty freely. Although I think there's home helpful stuff in the UI for track-building. Anyway, it won't automatically place those /s there, because you can just as well do a \/-style junction instead of just a / there. Or something like that, anyway.
21:46:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah I see, simutrans doesn't have that.
21:47:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, a |-
21:47:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, a |- style connection ends up with tracks going from the - track to both directions of the | track
21:47:34 <AnMaster> so you can turn, but rather slowly
21:47:42 <AnMaster> since it is such a sharp bend
21:48:40 <AnMaster> btw one thing I'm missing with both openttd and simutrans is the ability to do free form tracks
21:49:00 <AnMaster> in the real world tracks are not limited to 8 possible directions
21:49:00 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:49:12 <fizzie> Oh. In openttd you'd have to put in tracks so that it looks a bit like |>- there. Although the whole |> part is in a single square. (And you can do 90-degree very slow turns with something like /\, I'm not quite sure how the "how fast a train can go here" rules go.)
21:50:00 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:50:33 <fizzie> Anyway, I don't really play OpenTTD, I just have vague memories on how the track-laying goes.
21:50:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, for simutrans iirc it calculates it based on horepower, weight of train, weight of cargo, and how sharp the bend has been over a few surrounding tiles (how much depends on how long the train is)
21:50:42 <ehird> horepower
21:50:47 <AnMaster> horse*
21:50:49 <AnMaster> was a typo
21:50:52 <fizzie> Yes, it's something like that in OpenTTD too.
21:52:23 <oklofok> hör hör horepower
21:52:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, iirc openttd doesn't take the weight of the cargo into account, I read that in some "introduction to simutrans for openttd users", it talked about how this could cause several trains on the same schedule but with different amount of cargo to pile up, because the less loaded ones can go slightly faster (even on straight track)
21:53:24 <fizzie> There's a "realistic acceleration" patch which does "weight of the train, the power of the engine and the gradient of the slope it's going up or down; 90-degree curves have a speedlimit of 61 km/h, two successive 45-degree curves in the same direction get limited to 88 km/h; For softer curves, the speedlimit is calculated from the number of direction changes".
21:53:34 <fizzie> Without the patch it uses whatever original TTD did.
21:53:38 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:53:42 <fizzie> (I don't know what that is.)
21:54:04 <ehird> A haiku:
21:54:05 <ehird> compile ghc
21:54:05 <ehird> much easier if i had
21:54:07 <ehird> 8-core computer
21:54:26 <fizzie> http://wiki.openttd.org/Junctions has an awful amount of junctions with colorful names.
21:54:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, simutrans doesn't have as many options as openttd, in simutrans they tend to always enable features, and I think the goal is to be as realistic as you can be when limited to a tile based system with 8 directions for tracks to enter and exit the suare
21:54:37 <AnMaster> square*
21:54:53 <ehird> realism is boring
21:54:54 <fizzie> Yes, OpenTTD is not so very fixated on realism.
21:55:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw it seems you can't have complex underground networks in openttd? Say stations underground and such?
21:55:14 <fizzie> But in their own surreal world, they do tend to think about the stuff a lot.
21:55:44 <AnMaster> someone on the simutrans forum is even working on a patch to make it possible to have slopes underground
21:55:54 <AnMaster> so you can build sub-sea tunnels and such
21:56:00 <AnMaster> and complex underground networks
21:56:19 <fizzie> Yes, I think that's inherited from TTD, which just had "a tunnel" and an absolute rule of forbidding tunnel-crossings, even when they're on different levels. They've relaxed that rule in OpenTTD, but you still can't do real junctions or stations inside a mountain.
21:56:21 <AnMaster> (currently you are limited to same level as the tunnel enters in simutrans
21:57:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah I have a simutrans game here with an advanced semi-underground network of maglev trains
21:57:54 <AnMaster> that is using the MLM patch to pak128 (128x128 tiles for simutrans, default is pak64)
21:58:03 <fizzie> Heh, OpenTTD has a "crossing tunnels" cheat which lets tunnels cross. Originally intended for long tunnels in TTDPatch (since those realistically could do a bit of sloping to cross without hitting each other) but with no length restrictions, it looks a bit silly: http://wiki.openttd.org/Crossing_tunnels
21:58:12 <fizzie> (That's only in the cheat menu in OpenTTD.)
21:58:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, in simutrans you can (once the slopes in tunnels bit is added) build a replica of the london underground
21:58:49 <AnMaster> there was someone starting on the French metro
21:58:54 <AnMaster> Paris that is
21:59:18 <fizzie> I'm not sure if there's any plans on underground-building in OpenTTD.
21:59:39 <fizzie> I hear they've been complicating the economics and industry-stuff, at least. But I don't really follow the "scene".
22:00:02 <oklofok> you talking about bees?
22:00:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1089.0;attach=2937;image
22:00:15 <fizzie> oklofok: Yes, birds and the bees.
22:00:20 <oklofok> oh
22:00:22 <oklofok> well how do they fly?
22:00:35 <fizzie> oklofok: In 8 cardinal directions only.
22:00:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, the economics in simutrans are rather primitive
22:00:56 <oklofok> http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1089.0;attach=2937;image <<< this looks somewhat like a game
22:01:04 -!- neldoret1 has joined.
22:01:08 -!- neldoreth has quit ("leaving").
22:01:14 <oklofok> is this a simcity game
22:01:16 <fizzie> It looks very TT-inspired, to tell the truth.
22:01:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes indeed. Pak64 has animals in the background. No actual functionality there
22:01:34 <AnMaster> oklofok, simutrans. Transport simulation
22:01:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, it certainly is
22:01:53 <ehird> http://wiki.openttd.org/Crossing_tunnels <- that's hilarious
22:01:53 <oklofok> i haven't played that much of those, i assume their strategical issues are pretty much the same
22:02:16 <AnMaster> ehird, agreed, and in simutrans there would be a normal crossing underground there
22:02:21 <oklofok> AnMaster: i saw the picture, yes, that doesn't really tell me whether it's a "simcity game"
22:02:27 <ehird> they should call them space-time warps
22:02:28 <ais523> well, of course it's possible for tunnels to cross
22:02:29 <oklofok> it just tells me it looks like one
22:02:34 <ais523> the real problem is, why can't they cross aboveground?
22:02:37 <ehird> ais523: http://wiki.openttd.org/images/6/6e/Crossing_Tunnels.png
22:02:39 <ais523> traintracks can cross there too
22:02:40 <AnMaster> http://simutrans.com/paksets.htm <-- they look better. Some idiot used way too much jpeg compression on them
22:02:40 <ehird> that is what is hilarious.
22:02:46 <AnMaster> I usually play with pak128
22:03:07 <AnMaster> the screen shots are overcompressed
22:04:06 <AnMaster> ais523, they can, but in openttd there is no collision detection underground, they can pass through each other like ghosts in that picture ehird linked
22:04:16 <ais523> aha
22:04:17 <oklofok> wait "Abo Set"
22:04:20 <AnMaster> while over ground they would have to wait at the junction if two met
22:04:35 <oklofok> i guess i'm famous
22:04:40 <AnMaster> oklofok, err what?
22:04:41 <ehird> oklofok: wut
22:04:55 <ehird> aha
22:04:55 <ehird> Åbo is the Swedish name of the Finnish city of Turku.
22:04:56 <ehird> :D
22:05:00 <AnMaster> yes
22:05:06 <ehird> oklofok is turkuian
22:05:08 <AnMaster> but why would this imply oklofok is famous?
22:05:18 <oklofok> because there's an abo set
22:05:26 <AnMaster> oklofok, there are lots of other people there
22:05:30 <oklofok> and turku has a population of 3, so
22:05:39 <AnMaster> no it doesn't
22:06:05 <ehird> ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;_;
22:06:30 <AnMaster> ehird, you accept oklofok's unusual style of very seldom being serious
22:06:38 <AnMaster> yet you have issues with my opposite style
22:06:43 <ehird> yes.
22:06:47 <ehird> one is funny the other is irritating
22:07:02 <AnMaster> ehird, without me the channel would be unbalanced
22:07:07 <AnMaster> more than it is that is
22:07:38 <oklofok> decnalabnu is a nice word
22:07:42 <oklofok> probably shower ->
22:07:57 <AnMaster> No definitions were found for decnalabnu.
22:07:58 <AnMaster> huh
22:08:25 <oklofok> i mean it could be lojban
22:08:27 <oklofok> but it so isn't
22:08:47 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 10 of about 261 for decnalabnu. (0.10 seconds)
22:08:51 <AnMaster> makes me wonder...
22:09:15 <AnMaster> Did you mean: dynalab Top 2 results shown
22:09:19 <oklofok> err i just usually reverse sentences in my head
22:09:37 <AnMaster> oklofok, ooooh I see
22:09:44 <oklofok> first result on google tells you that
22:09:45 <oklofok> o
22:09:45 <oklofok> o
22:09:56 <fizzie> Also second, fourth, fifth results.
22:09:59 <fizzie> Well, your results might vary.
22:10:06 <oklofok> how does third do it
22:10:21 <oklofok> wait maybe different results.
22:10:29 <oklofok> show er ->
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22:10:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, not the ones I see
22:10:43 <fizzie> Possibly; third here was just "World of Warcraft" forums-post by someone called Decnalabnu.
22:10:47 <AnMaster> they are all virtual sheet music
22:10:48 <AnMaster> ?
22:10:54 <AnMaster> the first 5 I mean
22:10:55 <fizzie> "?decnalabnu er'ew tahT ?yas ot gniyrt uoy era tahW"
22:11:06 <fizzie> How can you avoid reversing that?
22:11:20 <fizzie> It almost has a 0gnirts in it. :p
22:11:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, there are some languages starting questions with upside down ?, I assumed it was something like that but with a non-uppside down one
22:12:01 <ehird> isn't it 0"gnirts"
22:12:02 <AnMaster> or a right to left script
22:12:13 <AnMaster> ehird, yes technically
22:12:14 <ehird> AnMaster: ...seriously?
22:12:16 <ehird> come on
22:12:19 <ehird> its obviously english
22:12:28 <fizzie> Anyway, here I just get two virtual sheet music things with that sort of obviously-reversed text, the less clear WoW post, and the next is "hcraeS tcudorP elgooG - rexim oidua" which is quite a giveaway.
22:12:30 <AnMaster> ehird, yes seriously, I'm not good at reading reversed
22:12:41 <AnMaster> I use rev(1) when writing strings for befunge programs
22:12:56 <AnMaster> or enter the string the other way around
22:13:39 <AnMaster> "hcraeS tcudorP elgooG - rexim oidua" which is quite a giveaway. <-- ?
22:13:54 <fizzie> With elgooG and everything.
22:14:10 <AnMaster> ah right. I didn't notice that
22:14:18 <AnMaster> I guess because I'm used to see it the other way around
22:14:19 <fizzie> Well, I guess it's not obvious to everyone. I just assumed, since I suck at anagrammatics and such.
22:14:30 <ehird> By the way, here's fizzie's high quality encryption method in Ruby.
22:14:31 <ehird> ruby -ne'$_.each_byte {|x| print((x^42).chr)}'
22:14:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, anagrams, I fail totally at them
22:14:48 <FireyFly> [22:12:44] <AnMaster> I use rev(1) when writing strings for befunge programs
22:14:49 <FireyFly> Meh
22:14:56 <FireyFly> I enter them backwards manuassy
22:15:01 <FireyFly> Manually*
22:15:15 <AnMaster> FireyFly, <v"String right way around"0
22:15:17 <AnMaster> ;P
22:15:19 <ehird> Bp5f}z`yq5tyy5aty~5|{5mzg8'$;
22:15:34 <AnMaster> ehird, what fingerprint is B from?
22:15:39 <fizzie> "rexim oidua" sounds like a NetHack scroll. ELBIB YLOH, after all. And DUAM XNAHT.
22:15:42 <ehird> AnMaster: Nothing.
22:15:52 <AnMaster> ehird, valid befunge of course, but rather weird one
22:15:59 <AnMaster> unless B does something strange
22:16:23 <ehird> g`wl58{p21J;ptv}Jwlap5nimi5eg|{a==mK'$<;v}g<h2
22:16:31 <ehird> I love how balanced it is.
22:16:36 <AnMaster> also valid befunge
22:16:58 <ehird> brb ->
22:17:14 <AnMaster> <fizzie> "rexim oidua" sounds like a NetHack scroll. ELBIB YLOH, after all. And DUAM XNAHT. <-- what? I never noticed they were reversed until you said it.. Just thought it was gibberish
22:17:19 <AnMaster> hnuh
22:18:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, how would you write a befunge program to print a single g?
22:18:44 <AnMaster> and then exit
22:18:48 <fizzie> Those are the reversed ones I could think of. Others have different etymologies. Like there's the JUYED AWK YACC, for Unix-toolsy people.
22:19:11 * AnMaster just found a perfect way to golf it
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22:19:39 <comex> who is Maud
22:19:43 <AnMaster> I'm fairly certain it can
22:19:46 <fizzie> Well, I would write it 'g,@ but I'm guessing your idea has something to do with g at (0, 0) and the pop-from-stack.
22:19:48 <AnMaster> can't* be made shorter
22:19:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes indeed
22:19:59 <AnMaster> g,@
22:20:00 <AnMaster> is mine
22:20:57 <fizzie> Here's another piece of scroll-trivia: KIRJE (which is also one of the random scroll names) is the Finnish translation of the English word "letter".
22:21:26 <fizzie> (In the "I mailed you a letter" sense, not the "character of an alphabet" sense.)
22:21:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, was that the intention of it?
22:21:42 <fizzie> Well, it's a scroll. It might be mail.
22:21:57 * AnMaster mails fizzie a letter containing a single letter (both sense used here)
22:22:26 <fizzie> "Finally, KIRJE was added together with the mail code in Hack 1.0.2."
22:22:26 <ais523> fizzie: no, mail is "a stamped scroll"
22:22:34 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, but that's where it came from.
22:22:42 <ais523> ah, it was designed for mail
22:22:52 <ais523> then added as a random description when they switched to randomizing descriptions
22:22:57 <fizzie> http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/anhf.html has historistical info.
22:23:00 <fizzie> For others, too.
22:23:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1444.0;attach=4207;image
22:23:41 <comex> other than a former player
22:23:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, uses the underground slope patch
22:24:47 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't the scroll of mail say "scroll of mail or such"? Pretty sure it was identified when I got it from the post daemon...
22:24:57 <ais523> it's "a stamped scroll", IIRD
22:24:59 <ais523> *IIRC
22:24:59 <AnMaster> mail daemon*
22:25:02 <ais523> it identifies when you read it
22:25:12 <AnMaster> ais523, well maybe I identified one before then
22:25:19 <AnMaster> this is a long running game so could be true
22:25:55 <AnMaster> (I'm trying out pudding farming, my conclusions so far is that it isn't something I will do again, too boring)
22:26:24 <ais523> AnMaster: the general conclusion about pudding farming is that you could just have won in the time you spent doing the farming
22:26:53 <AnMaster> ais523, heh I agree
22:27:36 <fizzie> I think mooz once ascended one character who dug out each and every square of all Gehennom levels that's not undiggable. That's one way to spend time, all right.
22:28:55 <fizzie> At least it's then easy to walk between staircases when finally going up.
22:29:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, I tend to dig a lot down there to make the path up as fast as possible, so I dig a straight path between the down and up stairs
22:30:07 <AnMaster> tends to reduce time and reduce risk of running into rodney
22:30:30 <fizzie> That's quite common, I think.
22:30:33 <ais523> well, yes
22:30:34 <ais523> everyone does that
22:30:38 <AnMaster> indeed
22:31:01 <AnMaster> ais523, though I actually came up with that idea myself before I heard that "everyone does that" first time
22:32:04 <fizzie> Heh: [2006-12-12 13:47:01] <fizzie> I wonder why the Wikipedia category "Species extinct in the wild" has the page "User talk:TrogdorPolitiks".
22:32:11 <fizzie> I doubt it's so anymore.
22:32:46 <fizzie> Yes, it seems to have disappeared.
22:32:47 <ais523> most likely a typo
22:32:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, I guess someone forgot : in front of [[Category:]] when linking to it
22:32:58 <ais523> it's very easy to do [[Category: rather than [[:Category:
22:33:13 <ais523> especially as the colon-prefix is unique to categories and files
22:33:19 <AnMaster> ais523, but you see it when you proof read with the preview button...
22:33:33 <ais523> not everyone bothers to preview
22:33:42 <AnMaster> ais523, huh. that sounds very strange
22:34:10 <fizzie> (I was grepping the logs to find any info about mooz's extinctionist, which sounded like another rather special game. Although admittedly extinctionist is probably not as uncommon as "crazy excavator".)
22:34:25 <AnMaster> ah yes extinctionist...
22:34:26 <ais523> fizzie: extinctionist is actually pretty common
22:34:32 <AnMaster> my current pudding farming game is also that
22:34:46 <AnMaster> well both that and genociding
22:34:47 <ais523> well, you'll probably extinct puddings pretty quickly
22:35:04 <AnMaster> ais523, well yes, but other monsiders too
22:35:07 <AnMaster> monsters*
22:35:26 <AnMaster> ais523, I had the luck of a level with up and down stairs close to each other and an altar very close to that too
22:35:50 <fizzie> [22:47:10] <@mooz> heh an extinctionist reports that create familiar creates an archon 50% of the time when everything else is extinct
22:35:50 <fizzie> [22:47:28] <@mooz> says he has 15 pet archons
22:35:55 <fizzie> That's funny.
22:36:04 <AnMaster> haha
22:36:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, I haven't got that far yet
22:36:27 <AnMaster> anyway val tends to suck at casting spells
22:36:33 <ais523> I'll agree with that
22:36:39 <AnMaster> ais523, which line?
22:36:41 <ais523> but then, valk doesn't need to cast spells
22:36:44 <AnMaster> true
22:36:46 <ais523> AnMaster: the valk casting thing
22:36:54 <AnMaster> ais523, valk is the easiest one IMO
22:39:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, so what about the image I linked above?
22:39:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, no way to do such stuff in openttd I guess?
22:39:36 <fizzie> No.
22:39:47 <fizzie> It looks like the underground-mode of SimCity 2000. :p
22:39:56 <AnMaster> I never played simcity
22:40:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm I'd want free form tracks, not restricted to tiles
22:40:40 <AnMaster> and different gradients for slopes
22:40:41 <AnMaster> and such
22:40:54 <fizzie> Okay, it's not that similar, but: http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/simcity-2000/screenshots/gameShotId,313830/
22:41:25 <AnMaster> FireyFly, how old is that..? Looks very old
22:41:39 <AnMaster> more like 1997 than 2000
22:41:41 <Deewiant> 1902, that's what it says
22:41:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is the *in game year*
22:42:08 <Deewiant> Oh, you wanted SimCity 2000's age? It came out in 1993
22:42:13 <AnMaster> ah
22:42:18 <AnMaster> that explains the look
22:43:06 <fizzie> The above-ground mode looks a bit less ugly, although obviously the toolbars do not change.
22:43:26 <fizzie> http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/simcity-2000/screenshots/gameShotId,3355/ or something.
22:44:21 <fizzie> FireyFly: Have you considered changing your name to "F1reyFly" or something to avoid the "AnMaster tab issue"? :p
22:44:21 <AnMaster> hm is there any size limit of station and connected buildings in openttd?
22:44:34 <Deewiant> Yes
22:44:43 <fizzie> Deewiant: Are you sure?
22:44:46 <Deewiant> Yes
22:44:53 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, what are the limits?
22:44:54 <Deewiant> You can increase the limit though
22:45:01 <Deewiant> If I recall correctly, anyway
22:45:13 <Deewiant> It'll say something like "station extent too large" if you have too big stations
22:45:21 <Deewiant> They're supposedly bad for performance
22:45:24 <AnMaster> one issue I found in simutrans is that you can build a station that covers the whole city using cheap bus stops next to each other all the way from a train station in the middle
22:45:27 <Deewiant> And no, I don't remember the default max size
22:45:50 <fizzie> Hmm. I remember it was possible to do pretty crazily long "disconnected" stations.
22:45:59 <fizzie> But really, I'm no OpenTTD expert.
22:46:10 <Deewiant> Disconnected might work better
22:46:14 <Deewiant> I'm not sure myself
22:46:15 <AnMaster> oh yes that is possible too, by building next to each other and then removing the ones in between
22:46:33 <Deewiant> http://wiki.openttd.org/Change_station_spread
22:47:55 <FireyFly> fizzie, meh, and buy a new domain?
22:47:58 <FireyFly> And, hm
22:48:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there are legitimate reasons for larger ones, like huge airports connecting train, bus, maglev, monorail and boat or such
22:48:11 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly.
22:48:22 <AnMaster> oh and tram too
22:48:25 <AnMaster> possibly
22:48:25 <Deewiant> Yes, I know, I have made large stations in my time
22:48:35 * ais523 catches FireFly in a butterfly net -----\XXXXX/
22:48:40 <FireFly> :(
22:48:44 <ais523> sorry about that, just oerjan was being slow
22:48:45 * FireFly burns the net
22:48:46 <Deewiant> And I have increased the station spread setting to accommodate my stations :-P
22:48:47 * ais523 releases FireFly
22:48:52 <AnMaster> FireFly, you still complete first
22:48:53 <ais523> oi, don't burn my net
22:48:55 <oklofok> what are the strategical aspects of these games
22:48:56 * ais523 douses the net
22:49:00 <oklofok> mainly, are there any
22:49:03 <ais523> luckily, it appears unharmed
22:49:05 <fizzie> AnMaster: Maybe you could tweak the tab-completion?
22:49:10 <ais523> also, burning a net while in it is unwise
22:49:18 <FireFly> AnMaster, this is my main nick; you're welcome
22:49:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, too much work meh
22:49:22 <oklofok> please give me a thorough understanding of the concept in one sentence
22:49:23 <AnMaster> oh well
22:49:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but I just made a station covering a whole city using car parking (very cheap) and that isn't realistic
22:49:47 <fizzie> oklofok: There be trains.
22:50:00 <FireFly> Sounds like strategy games to me
22:50:09 <Deewiant> oklofok: Build a transportation network, trying to make as much money as possible within some given amount of years. You can't lose unless you suck.
22:50:10 <AnMaster> oklofok, and aircrafts, and boats, and trams, and buses and so on
22:50:23 <FireFly> ...what's the topic?
22:50:23 <fizzie> Deewiant: Or unless you play against humans.
22:50:39 <Deewiant> fizzie: Do people actually play against each other, typically?
22:50:41 <oklofok> Deewiant: so is it more about having fun making nice stations?
22:50:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in simutrans you can loose easily, money is much harder to get by in the beginning
22:50:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: I have friends who do.
22:50:54 <AnMaster> and even later on the profit isn't that huge
22:50:56 <Deewiant> oklofok: Yeah, and optimizing their traffic flow and such.
22:51:05 <fizzie> Deewiant: Now that OpenTTD has working net-multiplayer.
22:51:11 <oklofok> i can imagine optimization
22:51:11 <Deewiant> fizzie: I've had the impression that people mostly play cooperative
22:51:26 <fizzie> Deewiant: Maybe mostly, but not always.
22:51:29 <oklofok> not really strategy tho, but should probably try it to see what the deal is
22:51:54 <FireFly> Hm
22:52:07 <oklofok> AnMaster: oklofok, and aircrafts, and boats, and trams, and buses and so on <<< must add terribly interesting strategical aspects
22:52:25 <AnMaster> oklofok, are you being sarcastic?
22:52:37 <oklofok> not only these things that go on tracks, but also these things that go on these other tracks that are usually much less constrained in real life!
22:52:44 <oklofok> yes
22:52:46 <oklofok> naturally
22:52:52 <AnMaster> oklofok, aircrafts don't go on tracks
22:52:54 <AnMaster> in simutrans
22:52:59 <AnMaster> nor do boats
22:53:02 <FireFly> Hm
22:53:03 <AnMaster> duh
22:53:05 <fizzie> oklofok: At least "hardcore" OpenTTD seems to be mostly about trying to find maximally profitable track layouts and such, under the very very unrealistic rules of the game. And from what I've seen, trains seem to bring the big bucks in that game.
22:53:40 <FireFly> There's an NDS version of OpenTTD :o
22:53:42 <Deewiant> It helps that the new versions of TTD are mostly about making trains better while not caring much about the other vehicles. :-P
22:53:49 <oklofok> how does population work? continuous? implicit, maybe?
22:53:56 <fizzie> oklofok: Well, except that for model-train-hobbyist-people it seems to be more about trying to recreate real-world trains as a graphics tileset in the game.
22:54:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, in simutrans the money is on high speed passenger transports for large cities (speed matters for passenger, a whopping 18% speedbonus there)
22:54:17 <oklofok> yeah i don't believe in real-world trains
22:54:50 <Deewiant> oklofok: Population grows in the presence of some kind of transportation or if the city is big enough, withers otherwise. (I think.)
22:55:16 <AnMaster> which means that you get more profit if going over the baseline speed. (which is calculated as average max speed of all current non-obsolete trains/trucks/whatever, one value for each category)
22:55:38 <fizzie> I think the NDS port was a bit... experimental?
22:55:39 <oklofok> Deewiant: sounds sensible
22:55:52 <FireFly> Perhaps
22:56:00 <Deewiant> oklofok: Which is why it might be wrong. ;-)
22:56:02 <AnMaster> for example the current "no-timeline" game has baselevel 60 km/h for roads, 35 km/h for ships, 80 km/h for trains and so on
22:56:22 <FireFly> I guess I'll test the Linux version before trying the .nds
22:56:31 <AnMaster> s/roads/buses and trucks/
22:56:34 <fizzie> "play maps with a size of up to 256x128"; isn't that even smaller than the original TTD?
22:57:00 <AnMaster> <FireFly> There's an NDS version of OpenTTD :o <-- what is NDS?
22:57:07 <fizzie> AnMaster: Nintendo DS.
22:57:07 <oklofok> Deewiant: well sounds like if population follows your stations, all levels would be pretty equal
22:57:08 <AnMaster> * Received a CTCP VERSION from oerjan <-- yes and?
22:57:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah I see
22:57:14 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yeah, I think 256*256 was the old maximum
22:57:37 <fizzie> I probably should install the DS version, just because I could then show it to those OpenTTD freaksies I know.
22:57:44 <Deewiant> oklofok: The maps are too big for it to be practical to build by all cities.
22:57:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, what a small map
22:58:04 <AnMaster> I'm playing on a 768x768 map here
22:58:07 <AnMaster> in simutrans
22:58:16 <FireFly> Hm
22:58:18 <Deewiant> oklofok: And since the initial values are random, there's plenty of variation, in my experience.
22:58:20 <AnMaster> which means I can't have firefox running at the same time
22:58:21 <fizzie> AnMaster: The PC version does 2048x2048.
22:58:21 <AnMaster> heh
22:58:29 <FireFly> How come I wasn't highlighted? :|
22:58:30 <Deewiant> I never play over 512x512, I find that big enough by far
22:58:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah yes, I think I heard of someone going 8000x8000 in simutrans
22:58:48 <AnMaster> may misremember
22:58:55 <AnMaster> anyway my system couldn't handle that
22:59:11 <fizzie> The NDS has 4 MB of RAM, and I don't think OpenTTD developers have been too concerned about memory usage lately.
22:59:44 <AnMaster> FireFly, highlighted for what?
22:59:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: checking if you had the same client (and tab behavior)
22:59:53 <FireFly> [22:57:03] <AnMaster> <FireFly>
22:59:55 <FireFly> That
23:00:09 <ais523> maybe your client notices quoting of comments
23:00:11 <AnMaster> ah
23:00:11 <ais523> and doesn't highlight on them
23:00:18 <AnMaster> maybe
23:00:23 <FireFly> Maybe that's the case
23:00:30 <AnMaster> -FireFly- VERSION KVIrc 3.4.0 'Virgo' 20080323 - build Mon Oct 27 02:53:09 UTC 2008 - i486-bcefikoprsxAGTZ - Linux (2.6.27-9-generic)
23:00:32 <oerjan> oh right, irssi varies dependent on who spoke last
23:00:34 <AnMaster> i486-bcefikoprsxAGTZ? wth
23:00:48 <FireFly> Don't ask me :|
23:00:49 * AnMaster wonders what platform that is
23:01:11 <fizzie> Original TTD seems to have system requirements of "386-33 Mhz processor or better; 4Mb memory" -- so since the DS has 66+33MHz of processing power and 4 megs of memory, it should run that just fine.
23:01:14 <FireFly> Looks.. encrypted
23:01:24 <fizzie> Looks sorted to me.
23:01:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, 66+33?
23:01:35 <AnMaster> Dual CPU?
23:01:39 <Deewiant> Yes.
23:01:43 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, there's 66 MHz ARM9 and 33 MHz ARM7.
23:01:43 <AnMaster> wth
23:01:47 <AnMaster> in a handheld
23:01:51 <AnMaster> why on earth?
23:02:10 <fizzie> The ARM7 drives sounds and mic input and things like that.
23:02:11 <AnMaster> no one?
23:02:14 <AnMaster> hm
23:02:16 <AnMaster> ah
23:02:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, mic input? hm
23:02:33 <AnMaster> what?
23:02:52 <fizzie> Some games have various gimmics to do with the microphone input, yes.
23:03:00 <AnMaster> I see
23:03:04 <FireFly> I think it's partly for the GBA compability
23:03:17 <FireFly> Didn't the GBA have simply an ARM7?
23:03:17 <fizzie> Yes, that's another good reason. The GBA had just that 33 MHz ARM7.
23:03:22 <FireFly> yeah
23:03:31 <fizzie> When running GBA games, the ARM9 is offline.
23:03:42 <AnMaster> I see
23:03:55 * FireFly wants a GBA emu for my card :(
23:04:10 <FireFly> Even if it isn't possible
23:04:50 <AnMaster> what card?
23:05:10 <FireFly> A M3 DS Simply.. Card for running homebrew stuff
23:05:14 <FireFly> An*
23:05:25 <AnMaster> oh ok
23:05:32 <fizzie> I have this R4DS, which I guess is pretty much identical. It's a nds-slot thing too, doesn't do GBA.
23:06:08 <FireFly> From what I've heard, the only difference is the sticker
23:06:21 <FireFly> As well as default theme for the firmware, I guess
23:06:30 <fizzie> The GBA slot things tend to add some more RAM; dslinux works better with that sort of stuff. For some reason it's a bit iffy with 4 megs.
23:07:06 <FireFly> Yeah, then there's these extra RAM packs
23:07:25 <FireFly> Like the one that comes with the Opera browser
23:08:12 <AnMaster> external ram? wouldn't that be slow
23:08:30 <fizzie> "It's not that far from the CPU in a portable."
23:08:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, ok true. But what about the bandwidth?
23:09:28 <FireFly> It's a GBA cart, btw
23:09:28 <fizzie> I don't see how the GBA slots differs much from a DIMM slot, physically speaking. But I have no clue how the hardwarey part is done.
23:09:53 <FireFly> I actually have a disassembled DS original somewhere here
23:10:08 <fizzie> Oh, they've released a "DSi" variant which has removed the GBA slots but installed a couple of VGA-resolution cameras on it, and comes with a download-games web-store-thing. Heh. Hadn't noticed.
23:10:10 <FireFly> My sister broke her DS, now it's my toy
23:10:31 <FireFly> I've read. But, shorter battery life
23:10:50 <AnMaster> a couple of cameras?
23:10:52 <AnMaster> wth
23:11:06 <FireFly> Two, at 3 MP IIRC
23:11:07 <fizzie> 256 MB of flash, SD card slot, 16 megs of ram, 133 MHz ARM9. Heh. They're trying to make a computer out of it.
23:11:13 <fizzie> 0.3 MP, says WikiPedia.
23:11:15 <FireFly> For multiplayer stuff
23:11:17 <FireFly> Ah
23:11:21 <fizzie> VGA, you know. 640x480.
23:11:33 <AnMaster> FireFly, two cameras? Must mean stereo vision or something?
23:11:39 <AnMaster> or why else would there be two of them
23:11:39 <FireFly> Nope
23:11:39 <fizzie> "one on the internal hinge pointed towards the user and the second one in the outer shell"
23:11:45 <FireFly> Ehm
23:11:48 <AnMaster> ah
23:11:49 <FireFly> yeah
23:11:52 <FireFly> Too fast :(
23:11:55 <AnMaster> strange still
23:12:08 <fizzie> I'm sure the DS developers are desperately trying to think up ways to use that stuff.
23:12:11 <FireFly> But, the SD slot confuses me
23:12:29 <fizzie> Some of the microphone tricks have been very curious. Like that zelda game you needed to shout at.
23:12:44 <AnMaster> someone with lot of money should buy two Canon EOS or whatever they are called and glue them together back to back
23:12:47 <FireFly> Isn't that pretty much inviting homebrewers/running illegal ROMs?
23:12:50 <AnMaster> that would be about as silly
23:13:07 <AnMaster> so you could take photographs of the photographer while photographing
23:13:08 <AnMaster> :D
23:13:40 <FireFly> Infinite loop!
23:13:58 <AnMaster> CF is better than SD in my experience, less risk of it getting lost
23:14:03 <AnMaster> those SD are so small
23:14:09 <FireFly> Why? I like my SDs
23:14:10 <AnMaster> my camera use proper CF
23:14:18 <AnMaster> FireFly, as I said above, they are too small
23:14:19 <FireFly> Especially micro SDs :D
23:14:26 <AnMaster> FireFly, yeah I hate them
23:14:28 <AnMaster> too small
23:14:30 <fizzie> I think a lot of mobile phones have two cameras nowadays. One low-resolution one pointing at the user (well, to the direction where the screen is facing) for video-telephony, one higher-resolution for photography.
23:15:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, maybe, that would explain that weird thing in the upper corner of mine, wondered what it was for
23:15:19 <FireFly> I'm still astonished how 8 gigs could fit in a micro SD.. It's about as thin as a nail
23:15:21 <fizzie> MicroSD cards are one of the few things that make me feel like I live in the future. Two gigabytes in a fingernail-size thing.
23:15:29 <fizzie> Oh, they're up to 8 now?
23:15:29 <FireFly> Yeah
23:15:45 <FireFly> The SDHC stuff is, I think
23:15:47 <AnMaster> heh
23:15:50 <lament> you live in the future.
23:15:57 <FireFly> But I don't have any of those readers
23:15:58 <AnMaster> well
23:16:10 <AnMaster> my mobile phone can use micro SD
23:16:14 <AnMaster> I don't have any card
23:16:15 <fizzie> Otherwise it has been a huge disappointment: the cities are still not in domes, cars refuse to fly, and so on. But at least microsd cards are small!
23:16:21 <AnMaster> or any reader in my computer
23:16:31 <FireFly> The Pandora has 2x (standard) SDHC cards, I believe it was mak 32 gig each
23:16:33 <AnMaster> even though for some reason my printer can handle lots of card formats
23:16:40 <AnMaster> but not micro sd
23:16:43 <lament> fizzie: shanghai, while not in a dome, might as well be
23:16:48 <FireFly> So, 64 gig storage, in mem cards
23:16:49 <oerjan> fizzie: we should be _happy_ cars don't fly
23:16:56 <lament> fizzie: you know, http://pool14.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/shanghai_skyline_g.jpg
23:16:59 <fizzie> Any microSD card I've bought has come with a standard-SD-card adapter.
23:17:14 <fizzie> lament: Okay, that looks appropriately futuristic.
23:17:15 <Asztal_> mine did too.
23:17:21 <FireFly> Same here, though it's only one
23:17:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't have any SD reader
23:17:45 <AnMaster> I think
23:17:54 <AnMaster> anyway, what is wrong with compact flash?
23:18:01 <fizzie> Too big, I guess.
23:18:09 <fizzie> Takes up a lot of space in a mobile phone.
23:18:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, more robust?
23:18:12 <oerjan> no flying cars and no faster than light travel. general relativity is such a bitch.
23:18:14 <AnMaster> probably
23:18:28 <lament> CF is less robust, because those metal pin things can break inside the card
23:18:38 <lament> if you are not careful taking it out
23:18:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, how are flying cars related to relativity
23:18:44 <AnMaster> also there have been flying cars
23:18:49 <AnMaster> seriously, let me find the link
23:18:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: how can you get cars flying _properly_ if antigravity is impossible?
23:19:02 <AnMaster> http://www.aerocar.com/
23:19:03 <AnMaster> that
23:19:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, ^
23:19:14 <fizzie> I have a vague feeling of "professional-quality" cameras being a bit biased to CF cards. And at least some point the best CF cards were still faster than the competition.
23:19:15 <Asztal_> except for sony phones, because sony decided they'd go and invent M2, the same thing as MicroSD but Sony get more money... :(
23:19:16 <AnMaster> it is real yes
23:19:19 <FireFly> Makes me think of old M$ games
23:19:21 <FireFly> Well
23:19:27 <FireFly> Impossible Creatures
23:19:35 <lament> fizzie: i'm pretty sure most pro cameras use SD now.
23:19:45 <lament> or both SD and CF
23:19:55 <fizzie> lament: Yes, my vague feelings are a couple of years out-of-date.
23:19:59 <AnMaster> FireFly, what makes you think of it?
23:20:04 <FireFly> What did CF stand for?
23:20:09 <fizzie> CompactFlash.
23:20:12 <FireFly> AnMaster, it has some flying lab
23:20:12 <lament> compact flush
23:20:13 <FireFly> Ah
23:20:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerocar
23:20:18 <AnMaster> that too
23:20:24 <fizzie> CompactFlush, the latest in toilet technology.
23:20:28 <oerjan> AnMaster: if it needs a runway it doesn't count ;D
23:20:38 <fizzie> The R4DS, which uses microsd card for storage, came with a USB stick into which you can stick a microsd card; that was reasonably friendly.
23:20:39 <FireFly> Then there's those xD cards
23:20:47 <FireFly> Made out of laughing smileys
23:20:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, there have been some experiments with helicopter style too iirc
23:20:56 <AnMaster> but helicopters are really hard to fly
23:21:00 <AnMaster> compared to planes
23:21:20 <fizzie> The "My tank is fight" book has an awesome flying tank. (Not very practical, though.)
23:21:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is that book about?...
23:22:05 <AnMaster> "My tank is fight" sounds like bad grammar
23:22:07 <fizzie> AnMaster: Craziest world-war-2-age inventions, both German and others.
23:22:15 <AnMaster> oh I see
23:22:23 <fizzie> AnMaster: It originated from somethingawful, that might explain the name.
23:22:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, not really, I don't know what "somethingawful" is
23:22:46 <FireFly> :o
23:23:04 <fizzie> You are certainly not very "hip", I guess.
23:23:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, don't be silly, everyone has a hip
23:23:31 <fizzie> "'My Tank Is Fight!' contains a humorous and exciting examination of 20 real inventions from World War II that never saw the light of day. Each entry includes full technical details, a complete development history, in-depth analysis, and a riveting fictionalized account of the invention's success or failure on the battlefield." (Although some of them did see the light of the day, to some extent.)
23:23:34 <AnMaster> well, I guess unless you got hurt very badly
23:23:38 <oerjan> use your hip when hopping
23:24:41 <oerjan> i would think the hip is a bit too close to vital organs for many living persons to lack one
23:25:17 <fizzie> Occasionally the book is a bit over-silly, but in some other places it's more subdued. Here's a quotation from the sillier parts; I have a hunch you don't appreciate, since it's a bit random.
23:25:22 <fizzie> "Think of your eyes as a castle and normal light radiation as goblins that run around outside in a mad pack and then assault the castle. The rampaging horde of goblins overcomes your castle's defenses and sacks the place, and then they burn it to the ground. When they burn your castle, that's how you see! IR radiation is more like the treacherous mole men who burrow beneath the moat and erupt in your throne room. They sack the place and kill everyone just lik
23:25:22 <fizzie> e the goblins, but they leave the castle intact so you never actually see anything. Actually, that was more confusing than not knowing about infrared. Let's try again."
23:25:40 <fizzie> (It's about the first night-vision inventions.)
23:26:26 <lament> sounds reasonable
23:26:29 <AnMaster> err
23:26:32 <AnMaster> what on earth
23:26:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, that made no sense
23:27:10 * oerjan thinks that could be a hellboy story
23:27:12 <fizzie> Yes, I sort-of expected that reaction.
23:27:13 <AnMaster> what does fantasy have to do with infrared at all
23:27:51 <fizzie> It doesn't; it's acknowledged there at the end.
23:28:20 <AnMaster> a better way would be to compare with how older people can't hear those insects "syrsor" (don't know the English name) and say it is a bit like that, you can't see it, only in this case not because of a short wavelength but due to a very long one
23:28:51 <AnMaster> FireFly, translation help?
23:29:16 <oerjan> AnMaster: crickets
23:29:20 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:29:23 <AnMaster> ah maybe that is it
23:29:29 <FireFly> Yeah
23:30:27 <oerjan> step 1: google syrsor, note the latin name, step 2: google the latin name (gryllidae)
23:31:00 <fizzie> Yes, well, I'm not sure if the point was really to have a good analogy here.
23:31:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, wrong. Step 1) notice oerjan, FireFly or some other Scandinavian person is around. Step 2) ask for translation
23:31:29 <AnMaster> :P
23:31:39 <oerjan> actually i guess i could also do step 2: look at language links from swedish wikipedia
23:31:56 <fizzie> I think I'm going to follow oklopol to a (different!) shower now. Try to talk only about boring things.
23:32:16 <FireFly> step 1: Alt-tab to Opera; Step 2: enter "tyda syrsor"; Step 3: Press enter
23:32:26 <oerjan> AnMaster: i am merely teaching you how to fi^W look up fish species
23:33:02 <oerjan> tyda?
23:34:14 <AnMaster> eh?
23:34:17 <AnMaster> fi^W?
23:34:19 <AnMaster> what was that
23:34:22 <oerjan> btw does that work if i'm not swedish? google's define:syrsor gives me nothing
23:34:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, I use google.com not google.se
23:34:44 <oerjan> AnMaster: ^W is delete word (emacs style i think)
23:34:52 <lament> is google.se like goatse.cx?
23:34:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes but what was the fi word?
23:34:57 <oerjan> fish
23:35:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, the joke makes no sense
23:35:10 <oerjan> are you not familiar with the adage?
23:35:42 <oerjan> .Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime"
23:36:00 * ais523 likes the Terry Pratchett version of that
23:36:02 <oerjan> s/./"/, stupid weird quotes
23:36:08 * oerjan sets ais523 on fire
23:36:15 <ais523> ouch!
23:36:26 <oerjan> i assume that's the one
23:36:36 <ais523> yes
23:36:53 <oerjan> AnMaster: i would guess google.com would be even worse for finding swedish definitions
23:37:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah
23:37:14 <oerjan> my point is define: seems to only look up some large languages + norwegian for me
23:37:29 <AnMaster> ais523, don't remember the TP version
23:37:36 <AnMaster> how did it go?
23:37:44 <FireFly> oerjan, yay, I learned that quote from Civ4
23:37:48 <ais523> AnMaster: "Give a man a fire, and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life."
23:37:52 <FireFly> About fishing
23:37:53 <AnMaster> ahah
23:38:04 <FireFly> Games are good for yau
23:38:09 <FireFly> -a+o
23:39:44 <oerjan> hm wait, actually it is really lousy in norwegian too
23:40:00 <oerjan> despite actually listing the language, it doesn't find "fisk" :/
23:47:09 <ehird> i have an awesomely outdated nintendo ds homebrew setup
23:47:29 <ehird> i got the stuff from lik-sang :-D
23:48:03 <ehird> it involves a "GBA Movie player" with an engrish packaging, a "MAX MEDIA LAUNCHER" DS cartridge, and patience.
23:49:46 <ehird> I put scummvm on it
23:51:23 * oerjan points out that lik-sang _would_ mean "corpse song" in norwegian
23:51:36 <oerjan> (well, the hyphen is redundant)
23:51:47 <ehird> oerjan: it means "powerful and energetic", apparently
23:51:50 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lik_Sang
23:52:25 -!- neldoret1 has changed nick to neldoreth.
23:53:46 <FireFly> :D
23:54:03 <oerjan> well that certainly resembles a corpse, don't know about the music
23:54:21 <FireFly> It's pretty close to the swedish counterpart as well
23:54:25 <FireFly> Or, well
23:54:33 <FireFly> "å" instead of "a"
23:54:52 <ehird> that's an awesome coincidenc
23:54:52 <ehird> e
23:56:09 <fizzie> R4RS "manual" and firmware packages (and website) is rather Engrish-rich too.
23:56:53 <AnMaster> huh http://wiki.openttd.org/Feeder_service <-- that seems to imply that cargo doesn't have fixed destination, that you could drop passengers at any stop in OpenTTD?
23:57:00 <AnMaster> which would be rather silly
23:57:07 <ehird> fizzie: it runs Scheme? :D
23:57:25 <AnMaster> rather I would expect generated passengers to have a destination and then try to find a path through your transportation network
23:57:26 <AnMaster> to do it
23:57:40 <ehird> But uh, this homebrew system is pretty elaborate; back then in 2006 you basically could do that, or modify the ds
23:57:44 <ehird> and I didn't want to bother with the latter
23:57:44 <fizzie> ehird: R4DS. I *always* write it R4DS.
23:57:51 <fizzie> Er, R4RS.
23:57:55 <fizzie> Is the typo.
23:57:58 <ehird> Not this time, I see :D
23:58:09 <fizzie> Apparently not. I might not be at my brightest right now.
23:58:16 * ehird looks upr4fs.
23:58:24 <ehird> Why, in my day that would be luxury!
23:58:25 <ehird> *r4ds
23:58:30 <AnMaster> * oerjan points out that lik-sang _would_ mean "corpse song" in norwegian <-- same here, except it would be "liksång"
23:58:45 <fizzie> Yes, I started the DS-ery rather late; there were cheap and simple tools.
23:58:52 <FireFly> AnMaster, [23:54:25] <FireFly> It's pretty close to the swedish counterpart as well
23:58:54 <ais523> AnMaster: <FireFly> It's pretty close to the swedish counterpart as well <FireFly> Or, well <FireFly> "å" instead of "a"
23:58:57 <FireFly> :D
23:58:59 <lament> "lich song"
23:59:01 <AnMaster> ais523, missed that
23:59:24 <AnMaster> lament, where did fantasy monsters enter into it?
23:59:49 <FireFly> Now I accidentally autocompleted my own nick >_>
23:59:52 <FireFly> Anyways
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