00:06:14 <nooga> mimp puup
00:06:56 <oerjan> ke du sei før nåkka
00:07:41 <nooga> jeg va ikke
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00:08:23 <oerjan> s/va/vet/, probably
00:08:52 <nooga> dunno
00:09:14 <nooga> shall we try Polish instead?
00:11:09 <oerjan> i was going to use google translate on "i don't think that would be a good idea" but i cannot even paste the resulting characters :D
00:11:57 <nooga> nie s�dze by by� to dobry pomys�? :>
00:12:28 <oerjan> your pasting is not unicode, i think
00:12:41 <oerjan> and i cannot paste full unicode with my setup
00:14:00 <oerjan> your special characters show up as superscript digits
00:14:12 <nooga> weird
00:14:24 <nooga> mirc sucks
00:14:33 <nooga> when using irssi, there is no problem
00:14:37 <oerjan> not really, i assume that's what you get for interpreting latin-2 as latin-1, or something
00:14:55 <nooga> nie sadze by bylo to dobry pomysl ;p
00:15:05 <nooga> byl*
00:15:14 <oerjan> i guessed that
00:15:25 <nooga> but then "sadze" means "i am planting"
00:15:38 <oerjan> the first two words are like what google translate gives, and the last one almost
00:16:09 <oerjan> Nie sadze, ze byloby dobrym pomyslem
00:17:00 <nooga> put "to" before "byloby" and it's correct
00:17:25 <oerjan> in any case, if you _had_ pasted unicode i would probably have seen just question marks
00:17:56 <oerjan> s/unicode/utf-8/, to be precise
00:19:31 <nooga> the worst thing in Norway is that when someone hears that you're Polish immediately says something like "ah, are you here to collect some berries?" :d
00:19:45 <oerjan> heh
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00:20:05 <oerjan> well recently they might have asked if you were doing construction work
00:20:15 <nooga> :C
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00:20:57 <oerjan> although with the crisis lots of polish construction workers in norway have lost their jobs
00:21:13 <nooga> i'd like to do some IT-related work in scandinavia
00:21:22 <nooga> but chances are mere
00:27:11 <nooga> i worked for Opera in Wroclaw ;d
00:27:58 <nooga> bbl
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00:54:30 <ehird> 22:48 psygnisfive: funny, i just got one of those
00:54:33 <ehird> you didn't already have one?
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01:04:17 <ehird> lament: I just realised that in fact ruby 1.9 did add nice lambda syntax
01:04:19 <ehird> ->(x) { x }
01:04:26 <ehird> heck, you can even do
01:04:34 <ehird> def <insert unicode lambda>(&b); b end
01:04:36 <ehird> and then
01:04:40 <ehird> <lambda>{|x| x}
01:11:47 <ehird> http://noahstokes.com/?
01:11:51 <ehird> s/?//
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01:16:31 <oerjan> i say we build an ark (without steering) and put him on it
01:16:54 <ehird> he'll just <marquee> off it
01:16:55 <ehird> hi revcompgeek!
01:16:56 <ehird> I remember you
01:17:04 <revcompgeek> hello ehird
01:17:18 <oerjan> ehird has a remarkable memory
01:17:24 <revcompgeek> i see that
01:18:11 <revcompgeek> Has anyone here used D?
01:18:22 <revcompgeek> http://www.digitalmars.com/d/
01:18:32 <ehird> Yes
01:18:34 <ehird> GregorR
01:18:36 <ehird> pikhq
01:18:39 <ehird> Deewiant
01:18:42 <ehird> Of which the last is most active
01:18:53 <ehird> And, er, me.
01:18:56 <pikhq> GregorR's the most competent with D, though.
01:19:09 <ehird> pikhq: Eh, Deewiant wrote ccbi.
01:19:10 <ehird> Good enough for me.
01:19:26 <ehird> (http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/ccbi.html)
01:25:02 <revcompgeek> interesting
01:25:10 <revcompgeek> i'm making the interpreter for Ans in D
01:25:50 <ehird> Ans?
01:26:00 <ehird> Ans in your pans.
01:26:18 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ans
01:26:18 <ehird> Ah
01:26:29 <revcompgeek> yep
01:26:34 <ehird> Looks neat.
01:26:41 <revcompgeek> think so?
01:26:52 <revcompgeek> i like it
01:27:25 <revcompgeek> the only problem i have is that the only gdc that works with my computer is old
01:27:45 <ehird> Don't use gdc!
01:27:47 <ehird> THe only gdc that exists is old.
01:27:54 <revcompgeek> yeah
01:27:57 <ehird> revcompgeek: http://www.dsource.org/projects/ldc
01:28:01 <revcompgeek> nothing else works with powerpc
01:28:05 <revcompgeek> including ldc
01:28:23 <ehird> Powerpc?
01:28:24 <ehird> Old mac
01:28:24 <ehird> ?
01:28:31 <revcompgeek> yep
01:28:34 <ehird> revcompgeek: er, llvm supports ppc
01:28:35 <revcompgeek> powerbook g4
01:28:35 <ehird> does it not
01:28:51 <revcompgeek> i can't figure out how to use ldc on this computer
01:29:02 <ehird> what goes wrong
01:29:39 <revcompgeek> hmm, i guess i'm wrong
01:29:48 <revcompgeek> i was under the impression that it wouldn't work on a powerpc
01:29:53 <revcompgeek> let me see what i can figure out
01:30:01 <ehird> revcompgeek: you'll have to compile llvm
01:30:10 <ehird> just as a note: when you compile llvm and ldc, compile with gcc-4.2
01:30:16 <ehird> instead of just gcc
01:30:21 <ehird> llvm is broken with the older gcc
01:31:22 <revcompgeek> http://www.dsource.org/projects/ldc/wiki/PlatformSupport
01:31:35 <ehird> PPC Mac
01:31:35 <ehird> LDC compiles, but bugs in frontend
01:31:37 <ehird> porting of GDC fixes suggested
01:31:39 <ehird> runtime, inline asm and exception handling need work
01:31:41 <ehird> contact: TrevorPascal??, Kashia?
01:31:43 <ehird> It will probably work ok
01:32:28 <revcompgeek> yes, i'm going to see how well it works
01:32:36 <ehird> :)
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01:35:04 <nooga> .
01:35:11 <ehird> .
01:47:13 <revcompgeek> i'm installing libconfig cmake and llvm at the same time, and my computer is crawling
01:47:24 <revcompgeek> :P old computers suck
01:47:54 <ehird> :)
01:48:00 <ehird> revcompgeek: making sure to use gcc-4.2 for llvm?
01:48:15 <revcompgeek> i just checked that, thanks
01:48:31 <ehird> :)
01:48:40 <revcompgeek> :)
01:48:45 <ehird> :)
01:49:08 <ehird> revcompgeek: if you think setting up ldc is hard, never try and bootstrap the ghc haskell compiler
01:49:12 <ehird> it requires itself to build
01:49:25 <revcompgeek> i've heard about those
01:49:34 <ehird> so you have to download an older binary of it, unpack it, download the source, set up the paths to it, and hope nothing goes wrong
01:49:35 <revcompgeek> setting up ldc isn't that bad actually
01:49:42 <ehird> (Things always go wrong)
01:49:46 <revcompgeek> yuck
01:49:50 <revcompgeek> have you seen mercury?
01:49:53 <ehird> the lang?
01:50:02 <ehird> I'm not much of a fan of logic pls
01:50:28 <revcompgeek> it is programmed using itself
01:50:32 <revcompgeek> so you have to bootstrap it
01:50:38 <revcompgeek> i don't remember exactly how
01:51:08 <revcompgeek> i'm not much of a fan either
01:51:18 <revcompgeek> they are too hard to think about
01:51:21 <ehird> The thing with bootstrapping is that to be sane you have to assume a $language compiler is already installed. And if your language isn't called C, that's a bad assumption
01:54:11 <revcompgeek> i don't know if you can use older mercurial versions to bootstrap it though
01:54:17 <revcompgeek> i think you have to use a halfway compiler
01:54:33 <revcompgeek> anyway, i have to go
01:54:38 <ehird> bye
01:54:41 <revcompgeek> bye
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02:05:13 <comex> holy shit
02:05:17 <ehird> what
02:05:29 <comex> http://www.whitehouse.gov/OpenForQuestions/
02:05:32 <comex> 7/10 are about marijuana
02:05:37 <ehird> I am so not surprised.
02:05:48 <ehird> People are, as a rule, stupid.
02:05:55 <ehird> People, when faced with the internet, tend to become more stupid.
02:05:55 <comex> that's in the budget category
02:06:02 <comex> it is aso leading in other categories
02:06:11 <ehird> Hmm. That "View Questions" button is the new gmail fakebuttons.
02:06:16 <comex> none of which, including budget, it fit anywhere near
02:06:22 <ehird> oooh
02:06:24 <ehird> it's powered by google
02:06:29 <ehird> the same thing as the 'ask the google team' site
02:06:35 <comex> how do you know?
02:06:39 <ehird> same UI
02:06:45 <comex> ehird: it's moderator
02:06:48 <ehird> yah
02:06:51 <comex> obama used to use it directly
02:06:55 <comex> now he has a branded version 8)
02:07:05 <ehird> comex: it's not branded
02:07:06 <ehird> it's an iframe
02:07:18 <comex> oh
02:07:20 <comex> didn't notice
02:07:20 <ehird> <iframe id="ifMember" src="http://moderator.whitehouse.gov/ask/start"
02:07:21 <ehird> it's both
02:07:22 <ehird> XD
02:07:29 <comex> :p
02:07:35 <ehird> also, umm, obama is being kind of shit :|
02:07:39 <comex> eh, it's ok
02:07:41 <comex> he's not magic
02:07:49 <ehird> yeah. still.
02:07:49 <comex> and can't be perfect
02:08:09 <ehird> even if he had the same policies as bush at least you can listen to him without your ears bleeding
02:08:14 <comex> could be better? yes.  but to be honest, stuff like the economy is a lot more important than what people on the internet worry about
02:08:59 <ehird> Yes, well, I'd say— no point politicizing #esoteric. Back to gay sex.
02:09:01 <comex> he doesn't have time to take a firm stance on everything
02:09:06 <comex> ehird: SUPPORT
02:09:11 <ehird> comex: Yes, but— Er, right, cocks.
02:20:22 * oerjan removes gay horse sex from [[WP:Gorse]]
02:21:43 <oerjan> or something like that, anyway
02:22:47 <oerjan> A gorse is no horse, of course, of course
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02:28:31 <psygnisfive> oh hello
02:28:45 <psygnisfive> no ehird, i did not previously have a dildo that was properly cock shaped
02:29:08 <ehird> it was a joke.
02:29:22 <ehird> I intentionally misinterpreted your sentence as 'I now have a penis, which I previously did not.'
02:30:21 <psygnisfive> i know, and i intentionally didn't pay attention to that interpretation.
02:30:22 <psygnisfive> :P
02:32:26 <oerjan> now i am starting to wonder if a dildo formed as a large fowl wouldn't be rather unpleasant.
02:41:54 <Asztal_> not for lady fowls
02:53:38 <nooga> O.o
02:53:52 <nooga> guess i'll just go back to sleep
02:54:54 <oerjan> Asztal_: that would be heterosexual sex, which is clearly off-topic here.
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05:38:56 <revcompgeek> ehird: still there?
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13:40:05 <nooga> oerjan: do you sleep sometimes?
13:41:27 <oerjan> yes
13:41:43 * oerjan is just finishing breakfast
13:41:52 <fizzie> Did we not already see a graph conclusively proving that the correct answer is, in fact, "no"?
13:41:52 <oerjan> sometimes a _lot_ :D
13:42:38 <oerjan> or maybe D:
13:42:49 <nooga> lol
13:42:59 <nooga> i got rline on irc.ircnet.pl
13:43:02 <nooga> wtf
13:43:43 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/test5.png -- only explanation for the near-uniform thickness of the oerjan line must be lack of a sleep mode. (At least discounting all sensible explanations.)
13:43:56 <oerjan> incorrect.
13:44:24 <oerjan> the correct explanation is lack of a 24-hour sleep cycle
13:44:46 <fizzie> But that is a sensible explanation, so I discounted it.
13:47:32 <nooga> what's the y axis on that graph?
13:47:50 <oerjan> y ask y
13:49:22 <fizzie> It's a sort of a normalized scale, the proportion of the width of one line to the whole graph is the same as the proportion to that nick's messages to all messages, in a N-minute window centered at that particular time of day. And some weighting.
13:50:04 <fizzie> For 2006-2008, I think.
13:50:21 <nooga> uhm
13:50:30 <nooga> so as i thought
13:51:27 * oerjan wonders how much it would change if you took message length into account
13:55:23 <nooga> .
13:58:11 <fizzie> Not much: http://zem.fi/~fis/test5l.png
13:58:57 <fizzie> You do get a bit thicker there.
13:59:18 <oerjan> _i_ do? i was expecting the opposite
13:59:48 <nooga> heh
14:00:11 <fizzie> I might well be doing it wrong, or alternatively be using somewhat different settings there.
14:03:01 <fizzie> Nope, it was the same half-an-hour window, I get identical output to the original if I do not count the lengths. And the lengths are taken into account simply by counting e.g. "foobar" as six "messages", so I'm not sure how I could manage to screw up something that simple.
14:03:12 <oerjan> hm it would seem i write longer messages in some time periods
14:04:34 <MizardX> When ehird is not here. :)
14:06:28 <MizardX> How about average message length?
14:07:00 <MizardX> message length / message count
14:07:00 <fizzie> Average message length per time-of-day, or something else?
14:07:18 <MizardX> per time-of-day
14:07:23 <oerjan> average message length as varying by time-of-day
14:07:51 <fizzie> Just in general or for everyone separately? I guess personal numbers are more interesting.
14:08:02 <oerjan> yep
14:08:35 <MizardX> division-by-zero -> 0
14:09:09 <oerjan> well obviously that would mean not talking at all
14:09:11 <fizzie> Well, there will not be an entry in the per-window message-count-structure-thing for nicks that have no messages.
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14:11:08 <nooga> lalala
14:11:19 <oerjan> dumdumdumdum
14:14:45 <nooga> hurrr durrr
14:16:47 <oerjan> mimi moumou
14:17:54 <nooga> gasp
14:18:18 <oerjan> cackle
14:19:41 <fizzie> The graph, it is choppy and unreadable, and lacks the Y-scale: http://zem.fi/~fis/test5avg.png
14:21:14 <fizzie> It is most probably choppy because even a single message is enough to bump the average message length from zero to some largeish non-zero value.
14:22:39 <oerjan> meh
14:22:47 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/test5avgr.png has the normalized version, although I think the only use for that is for "who talks with the longest messages at some point of time" comparisons.
14:23:47 <oerjan> indeed that's ridiculously choppy
14:24:16 <fizzie> There is an oerjan-peak around 10-11am. The times are EET/EEST, so that's... 9-10am around your place?
14:24:54 <oerjan> really?
14:26:03 <fizzie> Well, this is not the sort of data you'd want to rely on.
14:26:08 <oerjan> well that might be just as much because no one _else_ is there
14:27:00 <fizzie> In this test5avg, the peak should mean that your messages are longer than normally during that time.
14:30:58 <oerjan> the choppiness seems to come from people who _never_ speak at certain times, such as ais523?
14:31:45 <oerjan> and AnMaster
14:31:56 <AnMaster> ?
14:33:03 <oerjan> AnMaster: apparently you _never_ speak between 4AM and 7:30AM Finnish time, for example
14:33:22 <oerjan> http://zem.fi/~fis/test5avgr.png shows it pretty clearly
14:33:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, that would make sense, I would usually be sleeping then
14:34:19 <AnMaster> wonder why the sharp vertical pattern in several places?
14:34:33 <oerjan> AnMaster: that's exactly what i was trying to explain
14:34:38 <AnMaster> ah
14:34:40 <fizzie> That's when someone's "average message length" jumps from 0 to non-zero.
14:35:37 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood is interesting, he probably is very rarely here at some times, enough that some are completely absent, but still enough that he covers most of the day
14:36:02 <oerjan> hm pikhq too
14:36:34 <AnMaster> it seems I don't speak between 8 and 80:30 or so either?
14:36:42 <AnMaster> or maybe 8:20
14:36:57 <oerjan> so what freaked me out is that AnMaster and ais523 are _never_ here at certain times ever, in a 3 year period
14:36:59 <fizzie> That's 7 to 7:20 in your time zone.
14:37:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah, why not use UTC? That is the standard after all in international places
14:37:38 <oerjan> ihope too
14:37:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, I try to sleep during night when possible
14:38:59 <oerjan> and me and oklopol remain the only ones who have no holes at all
14:39:00 <fizzie> I didn't want to bother with the UTC-conversion, since it's a non-fixed offset "thanks" to daylight savings stuff. Of course Time::Local would've done it for me, but still.
14:39:48 <AnMaster> also that's odd between 6 and 7 I'm active?
14:39:52 <AnMaster> is that really correct?
14:40:01 <fizzie> A single message is enough to count as "active".
14:40:13 <fizzie> As it is the average message length the graph is showing.
14:40:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, that seems rather useless, average number of days when it happened would be more interesting I suspect?
14:40:50 <fizzie> Furthermore, a single message is enough for a full hour of activity, since it's a 30-minute sliding window.
14:41:00 <fizzie> Average message length is what was requested here.
14:41:09 <oerjan> AnMaster: we were trying to find out if the length of our messages varied by day
14:41:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, but isn't the graph relative?
14:41:37 <AnMaster> I mean it isn't absolute value
14:41:39 <oerjan> and apparently they do, although the choppiness shows there is a lot of noise
14:41:52 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://zem.fi/~fis/test5avg.png
14:42:10 <oerjan> that's absolute, but also unreadable
14:43:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm why is that very rectangular for me around 6 in the morning?
14:43:26 <AnMaster> well 7 in that graph
14:43:31 <AnMaster> but 7 in Sweden
14:43:35 <AnMaster> err
14:43:38 <AnMaster> 6 in Sweden*
14:43:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: I just explained that? If you have a single message, you get a fixed average-message-length for all windows that cover that single message, and with a 30-minute window it means a "block" of one hour.
14:44:06 <AnMaster> ah
14:44:20 <AnMaster> didn't see the bit about the window
14:45:26 <fizzie> test5avgc.png has the absolute-value-graph drawn in the cumulative fashion. It's maybe more readable than test5avg.png, as long as you don't look at the overall shape, which is nothing really meaningful in this case.
14:46:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is the scale of y? max == 511 chars?
14:46:49 <AnMaster> or?
14:46:59 <oerjan> fizzie: what about a "logarithmic" version of http://zem.fi/~fis/test6.png ? to show the difference between "speaks rarely" and "never at all"
14:47:26 <AnMaster> what did test6 show now again?
14:47:38 <oerjan> absolute number of messages, i think
14:47:49 <oerjan> (still with a window i guess)
14:48:10 <fizzie> Yes. test6l.png for absolute number of characters. All within a 30-minute hamming-weighted window.
14:48:45 <fizzie> I don't think I have time for further graph-drawing right now, I have to go and make a speech recognition presentation in Swedish (of all things) in 15 minutes, for that obligatory Swedish course-thing.
14:49:16 <oerjan> seems only slightly different from message number
14:49:24 <oerjan> ok
14:49:56 <oerjan> that's not what i meant by "logarithmic", though, so i may pester you again later :D
14:50:35 <oerjan> good luck with your presentation
14:53:17 <fizzie> Thanks. It's just a five-minute thing, so at least it'll be quickly over.
14:55:06 <fizzie> I did think about building the presentation out of my advanced-continuation-course-in-speech-recognition 30-minute seminar presentation, or our conference paper, but that might not have worked so well, given that the audience has architects and all kinds of non-computer-science people.
14:57:06 <kerlo> Eew, Hamming windows. :-)
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14:58:20 <nooga_> aaaa
14:58:58 <kerlo> AAaaa!
14:59:43 <kerlo> Anyway, cool people use Gaussians as their window functions.
15:00:34 <fizzie> One hump is just as good as any other, it's just there to get a bit more pleasant-looking picture out of it.
15:00:57 <fizzie> Now I need to ambulate myself to that classroom, bye.
15:01:04 <kerlo> That orange thing is not pleasant-looking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Window_function_(hamming).png
15:01:10 <nooga_> iif i were a girl i'd die for night with Erlend Oye
15:02:12 <kerlo> Then again, I guess you're not taking the Fourier transform of anything.
15:03:26 <kerlo> So all that matters is how nice-looking the hump is.
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15:06:35 <ehird> http://zem.fi/~fis/test6.png <-- I have talked at 4am?
15:06:37 <ehird> oh wait
15:06:40 <ehird> is this finnish timez?
15:06:41 <ehird> what offset?
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15:08:01 <ehird> "Unlike some of you, I am not an open source developer, I am an activist in the free software movement." —rms
15:08:05 <ehird> We can tell.
15:08:10 <nooga_> lol
15:08:50 <nooga_> that's why i'll release my intensively caching, lightning fast, mvc web framework for C on cc license
15:09:11 <ehird> nooga_: use BSD!
15:09:17 <ehird> cc licenses don't apply to code well
15:09:25 <ehird> except... why on earth would you write web code in C
15:09:29 <ehird> that's like really stupid.
15:09:42 <ehird> well okay I can think of about 5 uses.
15:09:50 <ehird> but not ones that would justify mvc.
15:09:52 <nooga_> it does not look like C any more
15:10:11 <ehird> so why not use a language that isn't for systems programming
15:10:25 <nooga_> shit ton of defines converts C in something more rapid
15:10:34 <ehird> but why
15:10:36 <ehird> that sounds awful to use tbh
15:12:56 <nooga_> controller(something) { view(index) { Array* x = Users->getAll(); render("template.haml",x); } }
15:13:06 <nooga_> ;]
15:13:25 <nooga_> gogogog http://localhost/something/
15:13:28 <ehird> nooga_: first i can imagine how awfully brittle that is and bet it only works when you do what the framework designer expected
15:13:29 <ehird> secondly
15:13:38 <ehird> why on non-god's earth would you do tht
15:13:46 <ehird> instead of using a language designed to do that kind of shit
15:14:18 <nooga_> the problem is RoR is sloooow, php is slooow, asp is idiotic, java shit is java shit
15:14:24 <nooga_> and C is neat
15:14:24 <nooga_> ;]
15:15:46 <ehird> 1) RoR is slow, but that's in a large part an artifact of the framework and old ruby versions; 2) PHP may be slow, but it's fast enough for big things (unless I'm hallucinating); 3) No argument there; 4) ditto; 5) C may be neat (I disagree, but.) but I couldn't call this abomination "C"...
15:16:07 <nooga_> well
15:16:23 <oerjan> Ct
15:16:39 <ehird> oerjan: I missed the pun.
15:16:40 <oerjan> and then the next versions will be Cth, Cthu, etc.
15:16:53 <ehird> Yes, well, I'd rather Cthulhu than this.
15:16:58 <oerjan> ehird: you were not patient enough :D
15:17:25 <nooga_> i'd like to serve something on my old PC and enable quite massive traffic
15:17:25 <nooga_> ;]
15:17:31 <nooga_> + i'm unemployed and bored
15:17:31 <oerjan> hm, "Thulhu, a web framework for C"
15:17:40 <ehird> nooga_: how old?
15:17:50 <ehird> what sort of traffic? I can only imagine spambots.
15:18:05 <ehird> + I wouldn't say processing is the top bottleneck for these kinds of things.
15:18:18 <oerjan> it will be a port of the Haskell Tur framework
15:18:18 <nooga_> i'd like it to survive raids form 4chan and being linked on digg
15:18:34 <oerjan> or maybe the other way around
15:18:48 <ehird> nooga_: I wrote a shoddy PHP site that overprocessed, made a database connection each time, did an ajax request every 0.5 seconds.
15:18:56 <ehird> It got to #1 on digg. /b/ hogged one account.
15:19:02 <ehird> Other places picked it up.
15:19:06 <ehird> It barely slowed down
15:19:24 <ehird> This was on a low-spec vps
15:19:27 <ehird> 256mb/ram
15:19:36 <nooga_> because your server was that cluster from CERN?
15:19:40 <ehird> no
15:19:47 <ehird> 256mb/ram, low cpu speed (it's variable, but it was low)
15:19:53 <ehird> it just kept going and going, and you know what eventually killed it?
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15:20:25 <ehird> the logfile took up the 10gb of storage space.
15:20:26 <nooga_> well
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15:20:40 <ehird> In conclusion, you absolutely don't need more speed than PHP for just about anything. (that doesn't mean use php, just means that using a fast language isn't important)
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15:21:44 <nooga> you are ruining my rad idea
15:21:44 <nooga> stfu ;D
15:21:48 <ehird> I tend to do that to people :)
15:21:57 <ehird> nooga: fwiw, a high level c webframework is oldhat: http://www.annexia.org/freeware/monolith
15:22:00 <ehird> 2003 oldhat
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15:23:33 <nooga> cool thing
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15:25:09 <ehird> hi ais523
15:25:13 <nooga> <:
15:25:23 <ehird> nooga: how does 'Users->getAll()' work?
15:25:23 <ehird> is it an oop system?
15:25:25 <ehird> generic?
15:25:26 <ehird> if so, it has to be Users->getAll(Users)
15:25:26 <ehird> no?
15:25:30 <ais523> hi ehird
15:25:51 <nooga> yep
15:26:02 <nooga> forgot that
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15:26:11 <ehird> nooga: oh,so you actually have to call it like that?
15:26:12 <ehird> this gets worse and worse
15:26:14 <nooga> yea ;d
15:26:23 <ehird> nooga: for the love of god just make a preprocessor
15:26:39 <ehird> make x->y->(z) be x->y(x,z)
15:26:44 <nooga> that's because C proprocessor is quite stiff
15:26:45 <ehird> Users->getAll->()
15:27:24 <nooga> jeijeijei
15:33:58 -!- pikhq has joined.
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15:33:58 <ehird> "consider a program that takes 100 ms vs a program that take 1 second. to the human, practically speaking, the 10x speed difference is negligible."
15:33:58 <ehird> wuuuuuuuuuuuuuut
15:33:59 <ehird> http://users.rcn.com/david-moon/PLOT/ <- this language is so hilariously overcomplex
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15:36:16 <ehird> "That C++ can be compiled into C is a pretty good indication that the whole language is basically syntactic high-fructose corn syrup."
15:36:19 <ehird> lol wut
15:36:26 <ehird> Is this stupid day?
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15:37:26 <tombom> plot seems to be reinventing dylan
15:37:33 <ehird> yeah
15:37:37 <ehird> the guy worked on the dylan team, tombom
15:37:41 <tombom> ah haha
15:37:46 <tombom> didn't realise thatr
15:37:56 <ehird> but srsly, it's the most complicated language I've seen save like ada
15:39:07 <ehird> ". Dave Moon worked on the first Lisp Machines at MIT, later was CTO at Symbolics and then worked at Apple on the Dylan language"
15:39:50 <nooga> PLOT
15:39:54 <nooga> seems nice
15:39:58 <ehird> o_o
15:40:03 <ehird> You're barmy.
15:40:22 <ehird> It's just a bad copy of my perfect language, although that applies to most languages :P
15:40:55 <nooga> what is your superior language?
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15:42:13 <ehird> Erm; it resides within my head. The basic idea is that it's completely dynamic at every level possible: the compiler/runtime are malleable at both compile-time and runtime, which are indistinguishable (there's just infinite levels)
15:42:14 <nooga> like P6
15:42:15 <ehird> Imagine P6 taken to the extreme.
15:42:31 <ehird> So, for instance, you could write a library that fully integrates — say — a dependent-typing system — by modifying the compiler at runtime to add it. You can, literally, change it into anything (even another language)
15:43:16 <nooga> yea
15:43:16 <ehird> There's eval(), of course. So if you eval() a file, you can modify that file, and if it modifies the compiler, it'll change how the rest of the program is run
15:43:17 <nooga> i thought about such language
15:43:29 <nooga> that lets you to extend it's syntax, alter it and mess with internal mechanisms using the language itself
15:43:34 <ehird> There'd be a "static" compiler option, though, to omit eval() and not let you do that kind of thing at runtime (so you don't need to bundle the compiler)
15:43:36 <nooga> but my head asploded
15:45:55 <ehird> I pretty much hate typing what I don't need, I guess is the motivation.
15:46:03 <nooga> yeea
15:46:13 <nooga> that's why ruby is cool
15:46:32 <ehird> I like Ruby. It's far from perfect, though.
15:47:05 <nooga> well
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15:48:05 <nooga> i like the thing that ruby doesn't force any particular style
15:50:45 <ehird> One thing I've been playing with recently is a language where programs are graphical... graphs.
15:50:45 <nooga> it's strictly object oriented but let's you write code that looks procedural
15:50:51 <ehird> It seems to work
15:50:55 <nooga> i has got functional flavours
15:50:58 <ehird> in theory
15:51:49 <nooga> and permits many cool tricks
15:53:27 <nooga> http://www.theprodukkt.com/werkkzeug1#28
15:53:54 <ehird> I know about them
15:53:57 <nooga> werkkzeug is based on a funny method
15:54:00 <ehird> Max/msp, vvvv, etc
15:54:05 <ehird> Aardappel
15:54:07 <kerlo> The only worthwhile programming language is first-order logic with dependent typing.
15:54:34 -!- dbc has joined.
15:54:36 <kerlo> The most useful piece of syntactic sugar is the * token, pronounced "y'know", which is transformed by the compiler into the only value that makes sense.
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15:55:59 <ehird> wb ais523
15:56:05 <ais523> wb me
15:56:21 <ais523> would you believe, that was me deliberately /quitting, rather than the connection dropping as usual?
15:56:28 <ehird> :D
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15:56:39 <nooga> kerlo: where?
15:57:03 <ais523> I was doing the assessment for my final project
15:57:10 <ais523> which I've talked about in here on occasion
15:57:51 <ais523> quite possibly there'll be a mathematical paper coming out of it, which you can read
15:57:55 <ehird> ais523: no, I'm pretty sure I couldn't read t
15:57:56 <ehird> it
15:57:59 <ais523> also, please don't claim that lazy impure imperative languages are ridiculous
15:58:07 <ehird> assuming reading involves grokking
15:58:09 <ehird> also, I didn't
15:58:15 <ais523> ah, ok
15:58:15 <kerlo> nooga: oh, there might be a program somewhere that interprets it.
15:58:17 <ais523> who did?
15:58:22 <ehird> nobody, right now
15:58:23 <ehird> I did previous
15:58:23 <ehird> ly
15:58:27 <ais523> I'm pretty sure someone did last time it came up
15:58:31 <ais523> so I was just being pre-emptive
15:58:38 <ehird> I _do_ think they are ridiculous, but I have a language prototype with it too
15:58:51 <ehird> except it doesn't take your stupid ; operator approach, it's far more flexible than htat.
15:59:06 <ais523> well, it's not my approach
15:59:10 <ais523> look up "Idealised Algol" some time
15:59:27 <ehird> looks scary
15:59:33 <ais523> and I don't see why "a then b" is such a ridiculous operator to have
15:59:57 <ehird> because it's not impure enough, mine lets you embed side effects anywhere, while working how you want, lazily :-)
16:00:20 <ais523> ok, that's brilliant
16:00:28 <ais523> I admit that ; is a monad in disguise, but I don't see what's so bad about that
16:00:31 <ehird> ais523: for example
16:00:39 <ehird> foo = (print "Hello!") : foo
16:00:46 <ehird> this prints Hello! when you first run it
16:00:47 <ehird> then
16:00:50 <ehird> head foo => ()
16:00:58 <ehird> head (tail foo) => Hello!()
16:01:02 <ais523> how do you determine first run?
16:01:02 <ehird> head (tail foo) => ()
16:01:08 <ehird> ais523: er, when it runs that statement
16:01:11 <ehird> okay, repl console:
16:01:24 -!- SimonRC has joined.
16:01:26 <oerjan> the monads are infiltrating our country and stealing our jobs!
16:02:24 <ais523> yes, and we'll all be better off for it
16:02:37 <nooga> =.=
16:02:37 <ehird> ais523: flood tym:
16:02:38 <ehird> > foo = (print "Hello!") : foo; ()                () to avoid printing infinite list
16:02:38 <ehird> Hello!
16:02:39 <ehird> ()
16:02:42 <ehird> > head foo
16:02:44 <ehird> ()                            print returns ()
16:02:45 <ehird> > head (tail foo)
16:02:47 <ehird> Hello!
16:02:50 <ehird> ()
16:02:52 <ehird> > head (tail foo)
16:02:53 <oerjan> that's what they want you do think
16:02:53 <ehird> ()                            the side effect only happens when evaluating, then it becomes the result
16:02:57 <ehird> > head (tail (tail foo))
16:02:58 <ehird> Hello!
16:03:00 <ehird> ()
16:03:02 <ehird> > foo
16:03:04 <ehird> [(),(),(),Hello!(),Hello!(),Hello!(),...
16:04:57 <ehird> ais523: this all despite that the (print "Hello!") is the same each time
16:05:10 <ehird> since the language has the notion of the same object differing depending on its context
16:05:32 <ais523> what does your ; operator do? evaluate the left arg, ignore it, and output the right?
16:05:50 <ais523> it seems to me that in a lazy lang, x; () would do nothing no matter what the value of x
16:05:51 <ehird> oh, that's not relevant.
16:06:05 <ehird> fine goddamnit i'll write it again so you stop nitpicking
16:06:11 <ais523> I'm just curious
16:06:18 <ehird> ais523: ignore the first line
16:06:19 <ehird> pretend it's
16:06:20 <ais523> nitpicks are how you learn esolangs...
16:06:32 <ehird> > :magicreplcommandthatmakesitnotprinttheoutput foo = (print "Hello!") : foo
16:06:39 <ais523> also, is that : the same as : from OCaml?
16:06:46 <ehird> it's the : from haskell.
16:06:46 <ehird> cons.
16:06:48 <ehird> the ; () is irrelevant to the example entirely
16:06:52 <ais523> oh, same :
16:06:53 <ehird> "() to avoid printing infinite list"
16:06:53 <ais523> and OK
16:06:59 <nooga> i just lost context
16:06:59 <ehird> and no
16:06:59 <ehird> in ocaml it's ::
16:07:06 <ais523> wow, I always get that wrong
16:07:15 <ais523> every single time I type it as : then correct it to ::
16:07:18 <ais523> when Emacs' syntax highlighting goes mad on me
16:08:34 -!- Rose has joined.
16:08:50 <ehird> hello Rose
16:08:54 <ehird> don't remember seeing you here before?
16:09:06 <ais523> what brings you here?
16:09:24 <ehird> gee, we know this routine off by heart.
16:09:29 <ehird> right down to the byte!
16:09:34 <ais523> yep
16:09:47 <ais523> it's even funnier in #IRP, partly because you can rely on the person joining to always say the same thing as well
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16:09:59 <oerjan> wait, what?
16:10:19 <ais523> generally speaking it starts for a request for hello world
16:10:21 <ais523> followed by a request for 99 bottles of beer
16:10:35 <ehird> ais523: please tell me you say 'go to hell'
16:10:42 <oerjan> :D
16:10:44 <ehird> i love that response
16:10:44 <ais523> of course not
16:10:48 <ehird> :(
16:10:52 <ehird> but but but HISTORICAL ACCURACY
16:10:56 <ais523> MichaelRaskin starts a response and then gets clipped
16:10:59 <ehird> <GregorR> Please, write the lyrics to the song 99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall.
16:10:59 <ehird> <memonic> go to hell
16:11:01 <ehird> It's in the damn spec!
16:11:09 <ais523> whereas I link people to http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/lyrics.html
16:11:21 <ais523> and that's not a spec, just a transcript of an old version
16:11:22 <ais523> the interps have been improved since
16:11:36 <ehird> Right I'll just have to reverse it then
16:11:41 <oerjan> now they stalk your home and stab you
16:11:45 <nooga> what is this faggotry?
16:11:48 -!- Rose has quit (Client Quit).
16:11:57 <ehird> nooga: I'm not sure if there's anyone gay in #IRP
16:12:01 <ehird> You'd have to ask I suppose
16:12:03 <ehird> Odd question though
16:12:12 <oerjan> nooga: not faggotry, we've moved to another off topic
16:12:26 <ehird> oh, right
16:12:32 <ehird> that topic is so yesterday
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16:13:27 <nooga> ah
16:13:51 <oerjan> just don't tell psygnisfive, he'll be so sad
16:14:30 <oerjan> well, if he weren't catatonic
16:15:57 <nooga> ehird: O.o
16:16:20 <ehird> "Ha ha, you're weird, by 'faggotry' I meant 'stuff'."
16:16:23 <ehird> "Duh."
16:17:13 <oerjan> and by 'rape', i mean polite conversation.
16:18:00 <nooga> well
16:18:17 <ais523> so who was Rose then, I wonder?
16:18:34 <ehird> a rose
16:18:50 <nooga> so who was phone?
16:19:05 <oerjan> which phone?
16:19:44 <nooga> none
16:23:38 <AnMaster> what?
16:23:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, what shouldn't who tell psygnisfive?
16:24:09 <ehird> ;_;
16:24:23 <AnMaster> ehird, saw that split? I can't read up
16:24:29 <ehird> ;_;
16:24:41 <ehird> 15:12 oerjan: nooga: not faggotry, we've moved to another off topic
16:24:45 <AnMaster> ah
16:25:21 * oerjan swats ehird -----###
16:25:29 <AnMaster> btw does anyone know if OpenTTD has trolley buses?
16:25:33 <oerjan> YOU WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO TELL
16:25:46 <ehird> oerjan: Can't bear the horror.
16:26:06 <nooga> AnMaster: Really?
16:26:16 <oerjan> ehird expects the AnMaster inquisition
16:26:27 <AnMaster> nooga, it was a question not a statement
16:26:37 <nooga> yea
16:26:40 <nooga> i'm just stupid
16:26:59 <ais523> hmm... maybe nooga was trying to Turing-test AnMaster by feeding him syntax errors to see what happened
16:27:05 <AnMaster> haha
16:27:14 <AnMaster> I found OpenTTD to be rather primitive for anything but trains.
16:27:43 <ehird> gee, a train sim focuses on trains?
16:27:47 <ehird> I'm pretty goddamn amazed
16:27:52 <AnMaster> ehird, it is a transport sim
16:28:04 <ehird> Well whatever.
16:28:22 <AnMaster> ehird, in this case that difference actually matters I'm afraid
16:28:26 <nooga> but trains ftw
16:28:43 <nooga> when I play OTTD i build only trains
16:28:54 <oerjan> ais523: AnMaster is immune to turing tests.
16:28:56 <nooga> ...and sometimes planes
16:29:11 <ehird> ... maybe AnMaster is a turing test himself
16:29:11 <oerjan> as in, no one is any wiser afterwards.
16:29:13 <AnMaster> nooga, well that is another issue with it. No complex under ground train networks with stations and so on below ground.
16:29:17 <ehird> by responding to him, we're losing.
16:30:21 <oerjan> the only winning move is not to play?
16:30:41 <nooga> AnMaster: I am quite sure that it could be implemented, since it's open project
16:30:56 <ehird> oerjan: Exactly. As a bonus you stay semi-sane.
16:31:12 <AnMaster> nooga, well I tried it a bit recently, turned out a friend had those needed original files legally. So tried it at his computer.
16:31:29 * oerjan swats ehird again as reinforcement -----###
16:31:29 <AnMaster> nooga, I prefer simutrans though, it has all those features already
16:31:34 <AnMaster> and is open
16:31:41 <nooga> isn't ttd abandonware?
16:31:50 <AnMaster> nooga, not openttd afaik
16:31:51 <ehird> nooga: no.
16:31:57 <ehird> AnMaster: he means copyright
16:32:02 <AnMaster> oh you mean the original files. right
16:32:06 <AnMaster> what ehird said then
16:32:10 <ehird> nooga: has the maker specifically got rid of the copyright?
16:32:18 <ehird> or are the makers dead + 7 billion years?
16:32:22 <ehird> no?
16:32:29 <ais523> ehird: I thought abandonware was a term for things that were technically illegal, but that nobody cared enough to sue about
16:32:36 <ehird> you said that last time ais523
16:32:42 <ais523> yes, I still think that
16:32:46 <AnMaster> ais523, I thought so too
16:32:53 <ehird> that's common usage, but it just means expired copyright software.
16:32:58 <ehird> or public domained old software
16:33:23 <AnMaster> so what is the name for the meaning ais523 mentioned then? If we don't want to be ambiguous?
16:33:28 <nooga> i just googled these files and voila
16:33:32 <nooga> ahh i'm so illegal
16:33:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Er, piracy.
16:33:50 <ehird> Don'tgiveashitware?
16:33:54 <AnMaster> heh
16:34:03 <AnMaster> ehird, too long to be easy to use
16:34:09 <oerjan> there exists expired copyright software?
16:34:12 <ehird> Shitware.
16:34:20 <ehird> oerjan: We discussed this. It's quite likely.
16:34:25 <ehird> What's the law ais523? death+20 years?
16:34:31 <AnMaster> err
16:34:37 <AnMaster> 70 years for copyright iirc?
16:34:43 <ais523> death+25 in the UK, IIRC, if it's an individual who owns the copyright
16:34:48 <nooga> hehe
16:34:52 <AnMaster> ais523, is this for books too?
16:34:54 <ais523> the rules for companies are different, partly because it's hard to pinpoint exactly when they die
16:35:02 <ais523> AnMaster: in the UK, source code and books follow the same copyright rules
16:35:04 <nooga> i hold several copyrights on software and i don't give a shit
16:35:12 <ehird> Okay, so independent shareware developer in the 80s, sells a program, dies in an accident.
16:35:20 <ehird> Today, it'd be uncopyrighted.
16:35:22 <ais523> could happen, I suppose
16:35:29 <AnMaster> ais523, I thought it was 70 years internationally + a few exceptions in some countries
16:35:31 <ehird> It seems quite likely
16:35:34 <ehird> There's a lot of stuff
16:35:37 <oerjan> ais523: i would imagine it was more because companies are potentially immortal... at least originally.
16:35:42 <ais523> AnMaster: no, every country is different
16:35:52 <ehird> You know, having copyright extend past death is pretty stupid.
16:36:04 <ehird> Their ghosts's intellectual rights are being infringed!
16:36:22 <ais523> well, their descendants may have royalties on it as their main source of income
16:36:41 <ehird> ais523: I'd put that as the company situation
16:36:47 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright#Duration " In most of the world, the default length of copyright is the life of the author plus either 50 or 70 years."
16:37:00 <AnMaster> ehird, children
16:37:06 <ehird> AnMaster: wut?
16:37:17 <oerjan> ehird: but think of the children!
16:37:18 <ehird> context?
16:37:34 * ehird thinks of children. Did I tell you I'm a convicted child molester?
16:37:36 <ehird> Er, disregard that.
16:37:49 <oerjan> s/but/won't somebody please/
16:37:51 <AnMaster> ehird, the copyright ownership is owned by the dead copyright holders descendants after his death
16:38:03 <ehird> AnMaster: Right. So then the copyright is held by a living person.
16:38:06 <ais523> personally, I don't think copyright has to make sense, on the basis that nothing else in the economy does
16:38:10 <AnMaster> ehird, not any ghost no
16:38:12 <ehird> But if the person dies and it doesn't go there, ...
16:38:16 <AnMaster> ehird, btw I see you are alive again ;P
16:38:24 <nooga> i bought a car from a dead person ;d
16:38:33 <ehird> Yes. I challenged Death to tic tac toe.
16:38:35 <AnMaster> ais523, heh.
16:38:38 <ais523> ehird: who won?
16:38:40 <ehird> While he was considering it I put the first move in.
16:38:56 <ehird> ais523: Well, it was 2x2 tic tac toe.
16:38:56 <nooga> his wife had papers with his signatures
16:38:57 <ehird> so, er, me.
16:39:11 <nooga> we filled the papers and i've got a car from a dead guy
16:39:31 <ais523> heh, if I were Death in that situation (which is pretty unlikely, tbh), then once you played the first x
16:39:38 <ais523> I'd put my own x next to it, then we'd both win
16:39:45 <AnMaster> <ehird> ais523: Well, it was 2x2 tic tac toe. <-- that would be even more trivial?
16:39:45 <ehird> :D
16:39:49 <ehird> AnMaster: /facepalm
16:41:17 <oerjan> ais523: you could be Death of Losing in Tic-Tac-Toe
16:41:31 <ehird> Actually, 2x2 tic tac toe constituted a major story arc of a comic I once made...
16:41:35 <oerjan> you would fit into IWC just well
16:41:50 <ehird> Specifically, it was used to settle a dispute of Earth vs MArs.
16:41:54 <ehird> *Mars
16:41:59 <ais523> was it a very interesting comic?
16:42:20 <ehird> ais523: It was quite funny. At least people seemed to think so.
16:43:05 <nooga> ehird: have you got any docs on your idea of this self altering language?
16:43:15 <ehird> nooga: Yes, just connect to my mind
16:43:28 <oerjan> they are self altering docs, obviously
16:43:44 <ais523> oh, if only INTERCAL had string handling!
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16:43:58 <ais523> I just realised that palindromic Forth hello world could be translated to INTERCAL
16:44:05 <ehird> :DD
16:44:12 <ehird> show the forth one?
16:44:22 <ais523> was it Forth, or something else?
16:44:37 <ais523> anyway, it worked by redefining syntax errors to print hello world
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16:44:43 <ais523> then syntax-erroring
16:45:04 <oerjan> that was the tcl one wasn't it?
16:45:08 <ehird> tcl
16:45:09 <ehird> proc unknown
16:45:13 <ais523> oh, tcl
16:45:16 <ais523> sorry
16:45:18 <ais523> misremembered
16:45:31 <ais523> but it would be a simple case of DO ABSTAIN FROM COMMENTS to remove the normal meaning of a syntax error
16:45:40 <ais523> followed by DO NEXT FROM COMMENTS to redefine them
16:45:44 <ais523> then the hello world code
16:45:51 <ais523> then the whole thing backwards
16:46:04 <ais523> actually, that would print lots of hello worlds in a loop, you might want to exit somewhere in that mess
16:47:07 * oerjan recalls some basics had ON ERROR GOTO
16:47:24 <ehird> qbasic did
16:49:31 <AnMaster> ...
16:49:42 <nooga> 5555555555555555
16:49:42 * AnMaster prods freenode
16:50:52 <AnMaster> ais523, err since I missed the discussion due to the netsplit, what is the code you are talking about? And why hello world backwards?
16:51:00 <ais523> even Visual Basic had ON ERROR RESUME NEXT
16:51:11 <ais523> which is an anti-pattern in itself, codified into the language!
16:51:13 <AnMaster> <ehird> :D
16:51:13 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, I was just agreeing with you
16:51:13 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> I don't think anyone but whoever made the first move would win in 2x2 tic tac toe... Right?
16:51:13 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> it would even be impossible for first player to loose
16:51:13 <AnMaster> then the split
16:51:29 <ehird> yes, erm, no shit
16:51:31 <ais523> AnMaster: I wrote a mistake
16:51:42 <ehird> 15:51 ais523: even Visual Basic had ON ERROR RESUME NEXT
16:51:46 <ehird> php oneups it
16:51:49 <ehird> @func(...)
16:51:51 <ehird> all errors are ignored
16:51:59 <ais523> but a corrected version: the TCL palindromic hello world on stackoverflow worked by redefining syntax errors to print hello world
16:52:04 <nooga> basics are idiotic
16:52:12 <ais523> followed by the same code backwards, which obviously contained a syntax error
16:52:46 <ehird> no syntax error, ais523
16:52:48 <ehird> just unknown procedures
16:53:30 <ais523> ah, ok
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16:53:45 <ais523> what's up with AnMaster, I wonder?
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16:53:57 <ehird> he blames freenode; I blame his bouncer.
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16:54:17 <AnMaster_> grr
16:54:25 <AnMaster_> I hate the split
16:54:55 <AnMaster_> ehird, what?
16:55:12 <ehird> It's not a netsplit.
16:55:12 <AnMaster_> ehird, didn't you see the huge netsplit?
16:55:16 <ehird> 15:53 AnMaster has left IRC (Client Quit)
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16:55:17 <AnMaster_> or not huge from your side
16:55:25 <ehird> It's not freenode's issue, AnMaster_.
16:55:32 <AnMaster_> but huge on the server I were on
16:55:33 <AnMaster_> so why would my bouncer be the issue.
16:55:39 <ehird> because there was. no. netsplit.
16:56:31 <AnMaster_> ehird, that was because of timeout. But don't pretend there weren't a netsplit before
16:56:44 <AnMaster_> ehird, after <nooga> 5555555555555555 I saw a split with lots of quits
16:56:55 <ehird> ...
16:56:56 <ehird> no
16:57:02 <ehird> 15:49 nooga: 5555555555555555
16:57:02 <ehird> 15:49 AnMaster prods freenode
16:58:19 <nooga> stop this nonsense, let's design computation model based on weave frequency, interference and diffraction
16:58:39 <AnMaster_> ehird, I sent that line about 5 minutes before the split
16:58:41 <AnMaster_> ...
16:58:43 <ais523> AnMaster_: it was a very small netsplit, only three people parted
16:58:48 <ais523> you were just caught on the small side
16:58:54 <ais523> so it looked big from your point of view
16:58:55 <ehird> ais523: oh, if only INTERCAL had string handling!
16:58:55 <ehird> 15:43 AnMaster has left IRC (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
16:58:55 <AnMaster_> when I noticed lag issues
16:58:55 <ehird> 15:43 Judofyr has left IRC (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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16:59:03 <ehird> that was -ages- ago
16:59:12 <ehird> 3 minutes before
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17:02:01 <AnMaster> ehird, there were three splits in total today. From your side all looked small yes. But they were huge from my side
17:02:38 <AnMaster> afk for a bit
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17:04:48 <AnMaster> ehird, now there have been 4 splits
17:05:12 <AnMaster> unless it is same but it took longer to detect on this side
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17:05:41 <AnMaster> it might have been
17:05:44 <AnMaster> ehird, :P
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17:17:44 <ehird> http://www.pixelcomic.net/ <-- The universal opinion of people I know who see this comic is that I'm writing it.
17:17:53 <ehird> I must admit it is quite, well, ehird.
17:23:37 <AnMaster> ehird, are you writing it?
17:23:41 <ehird> No.
17:23:43 <AnMaster> ah
17:23:55 <ehird> That was obvious.
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17:26:18 <ehird> wb ais523
17:27:20 <ais523> wb me
17:27:30 <ais523> sorry, today's been pretty hectic
17:27:51 <nooga> ehird: explain!
17:27:56 <nooga> teh language
17:27:57 <ehird> no
17:28:15 <nooga> explain!
17:28:25 <ehird> na na na na
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17:30:22 <nooga> HURRRRRRRr
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17:44:15 <nooga> hei
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18:12:58 <ehird> ┌─────┬─┬─┐
18:13:00 <ehird> │┌─┬─┐│%│#│
18:13:01 <ehird> ││+│/││ │ │
18:13:03 <ehird> │└─┴─┘│ │ │
18:13:05 <ehird> └─────┴─┴─┘
18:13:43 <ais523> ehird: a spellbook, a wand, food, and a sink, all in individual rooms?
18:14:11 <ehird> ais523: OR the parse tree of +/%# ?!
18:14:28 <ais523> parse trees are two-dimensional nowadays?
18:15:15 <ehird> In J, yes.
18:15:15 <ehird> Well it's not a parse tree, just boxes.
18:15:25 <ehird> Boxes are, essentially, well
18:15:30 <ehird> You can't put a matrix in matrix, right? It's flattened out
18:15:35 <ehird> But you can put a box in a matrix
18:15:42 <ehird> And a box is just a matrix turned into a value.
18:15:51 <ehird> And when you have something that doesn't evaluate
18:15:55 <ehird> (+/%#) 1 2 3
18:15:56 <ehird> does
18:15:59 <ehird> but just +/%# doesn't
18:16:04 <ehird> you get it as the nested boxes of parsetreeity.
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18:20:01 <Deewiant> Parse trees have always been two-dimensional, otherwise they'd be parse lines
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18:20:43 <ehird> that isn't even 2d
18:20:45 <ehird> it's just nested
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18:33:44 <AnMaster> ehird, parsehack!
18:34:38 <AnMaster> also it is obvious they are 2D. Just consider LISP...
18:35:52 <lament> KISS LIPS
18:37:08 <AnMaster> lament, I said LISP :P
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18:37:50 <Deewiant> SICK LISP
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18:42:44 <ehird> http://pixelcomic.net/135.shtml
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18:44:36 <lament> this comic is shit
18:45:15 <ehird> i know; i love it.
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18:50:42 <lament> if you want read a shitty comic, read jerkcity or asciiartfarts
18:51:02 <Slereah_> I have some really shitty comics if you want
18:51:03 <ehird> i'll read what i like thankyo
18:51:04 <ehird> u
18:51:05 <Slereah_> Some will make your blood boil!
18:51:15 <ehird> pixelcomic is amusing though.
18:52:11 <lament> wtf, i didn't realize this was real
18:52:12 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Comic_Chat
18:52:25 <ais523> just seeing that URL scares me
18:52:30 <ehird> lament: err duh
18:52:39 <ehird> who didn't know jerkcity was made frmo that
18:52:41 <ehird> srsly
18:52:45 <lament> hahahaha
18:52:51 <lament> the channel on the wikipedia illustration is #zdoom
18:52:56 <lament> no wonder
18:53:06 <ehird> wait what
18:53:19 <ais523> also, interesting that that's how Comic Sans came to be
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18:53:40 <lament> wow
18:53:49 <ehird> err
18:53:51 <ehird> I don't think that's true
18:53:55 <ehird> It was designed for microsoft bob
18:53:57 <lament> and ops are represented by a hammer
18:54:01 <lament> that's wonderful
18:54:21 <ais523> wow, an actual ORLY/YARLY
18:54:31 <ais523> I didn't realise those existed in the wild
18:54:37 <lament> it's #zdoom
18:54:41 <ehird> ais523: O RLY?
18:54:41 <lament> one step removed from SA
18:55:05 <ais523> ehird: yes, O RLY?.
18:55:06 <ehird> ais523: >:|
18:55:39 <ehird> Comic Sans was designed because when I was working at Microsoft I received a beta version of Microsoft Bob. It was a comic software package that had a dog called Rover at the beginning and he had a balloon with messages using Times New Roman.
18:55:42 <ehird> http://www.connare.com/whycomic.htm
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19:32:40 <ehird> I'm installing Windows XP in a VM and I have no idea why.
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19:33:15 <Asztal_> Fjölnir development?
19:33:48 <ehird> :D
19:39:51 <ehird> Asztal_: is there actually a fjölnir impl readily available?
19:40:11 <Asztal_> ehird: yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fj%C3%B6lnir_%28programming_language%29
19:40:20 <Asztal_> it's 16-bit :D
19:40:52 <ehird> Is it coded in Háskóli?
19:41:19 <Asztal_> Also, it needs its input encoded in CP861. Brings back memories of nothing ever working.
19:41:27 <ehird> woah.
19:41:38 <ehird> "is a list-processing language similar to LISP and LOGO.  "
19:41:44 <ehird> Is it just me or is this completely false?
19:41:57 <fizzie> I just (two weeks ago, maybe) installed Windows XP in a VM, and I had no idea why. (Although since then I've found a real use for it: there is some windows-specific bug in the Java thingamajic used by that AI course, whose project-work I'm handling.)
19:42:06 <Asztal_> ehird: where does it say that?
19:42:10 <ehird> Asztal_: 99bob
19:42:22 <ehird> Actually I'm installing windows to see how well I can replicate http://www.winterspeak.com/columns/goodeasy.txt on it
19:42:27 <Asztal_> ehird: well, it does have lists...
19:42:35 <ehird> Asztal_: python is a list processing language!
19:42:45 <ehird> like lisp!
19:42:47 <ehird> and logo!
19:42:56 <ehird> http://news.php.net/php.webmaster/4188 KOL WUT
19:42:57 <ehird> *LOL
19:43:03 <Asztal_> but I think the defining part of lisp is lambdas/closures... which I haven't yet found in Fjölnir :(
19:43:13 <Asztal_> *a* defining part
19:43:27 <ehird> Asztal_: Evidently this language is not yet touched by the Sussman.
19:44:43 <ehird> I hope it isn't unscien— shot
19:45:00 <Asztal_> "Its primary features are list-processing, akin to LISP's, and modular programming via algebraic package operators (which is what sets it apart from other languages), so you have special operations on packages like composition and so on."
19:45:12 <ehird> modular programming via algebraic package operators
19:45:12 <ehird> w h a t
19:45:25 <Asztal_> see the Hello World example?
19:45:30 <ehird> Yes.
19:45:50 <Asztal_> the bit in between { } is presumably a module variable, and * sort of... links them
19:46:11 <Asztal_> except the only documentation is in Icelandic, so I don't really know what it's doing :(
19:46:20 <ehird> Asztal_: Are they trying to say the good thing is that you can organize your code with packages and then run pointless operations on these packages?
19:47:28 <ehird>    Please wait while Setup copies files
19:47:28 <ehird>    to the Windows installation folders.
19:47:31 <ehird> This might take several minutes to complete.
19:47:32 <ehird> It's almost a Haiku.
19:48:11 <Asztal_> it's kind of cool if you can take a piece of code and use it in several different contexts... like maybe "GRUNNUR"'s * operator multiplies numbers, but some other package's * operator does something different.
19:48:25 <Asztal_> then again that might not be possible :|
19:48:27 <ehird> I think "GRUNNUR" is the standard library.
19:48:35 <Asztal_> yes, it seems so.
19:48:48 <ehird> Module names as strings is pretty stupid.
19:50:51 <Asztal_> It seems there are first-class functions, too.
19:51:05 <ehird> Installing XP feels kind of ... deviant.
19:51:23 <Asztal_> "f := stef skrifastreng(0,1)" or something like that...
19:51:44 <Asztal_> 0 being the amount of in-out parameters, 1 being the amount of in parameters.
19:51:44 <fizzie> ehird: Maybe even ... deewiant.
19:51:52 <ehird> Asztal_: that's so ugly :D
19:52:32 <ehird> 94%%%%%%%%%%%%%
19:52:53 <ehird> After this I get to remove a good part of the hideous abomination that is the parts of XP that are changed from 2000
19:52:57 <ehird> Still left with the windows horror tho
19:53:56 <ehird> "Setup will complete in approximately 39 minutes"
19:53:58 <ehird> Yay microsoft minutes
19:54:16 <fizzie> Installing it in a VM certainly beats installing it on hardware.
19:55:39 <ehird> It is currently informing me how awesome the new My Pictures folder is.
19:58:06 <ehird> THE 25 CHARACTER PRODUCT KEY
19:58:15 <ehird> APPEARS ON THE LOWER SECTION OF YOUR CERTIFICATE OF AUTHENTI-CI-TY!
19:58:18 <ehird> It freakin' rhymes.
19:59:06 <Robdgreat> they're poets and they were completely eluded by that fact
19:59:12 <ehird> :D
19:59:22 -!- jix has quit ("...").
19:59:47 <ehird> So erm, my right mouse button is way too flaky.
19:59:53 <Robdgreat> pop that sucker off
19:59:54 <ehird> Using windows without one will be fun.
19:59:56 <Robdgreat> you don't need it
20:00:02 <ehird> Robdgreat: Actually there's just one touch-sensitive button.
20:00:09 <fizzie> If your right mouse button offends you, pop that sucker off.
20:00:15 <ehird> Apple Mighty Mouse Gee Isn't It Great, There's No Line So It Doesn't Work Properly
20:00:17 <fizzie> It's, like, in the Bible. Or something.
20:00:32 <Robdgreat> fizzie: hrhr
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20:05:48 <ehird> Wow, windows xp cursor excelleration is awful
20:05:52 <ehird> you can really feel it working
20:09:29 <ehird> Record a CD as easily as saving
20:09:32 <ehird> information to a floppy disk
20:09:34 <ehird> — Windows XP installer
20:12:50 <ehird> MICROSOFT(R) <windows logo>(TM)
20:12:53 <ehird> Windows (R) xp
20:12:57 <ehird> [ ====             ]
20:13:27 <ehird> Whoa, shitty intro video.
20:13:37 <ehird> OH GOD IT'S CLIPPY EXCEPT IT's A (?)
20:13:54 <ehird> I HATE THIS MUSIC
20:15:11 <ehird> The product key being used to activate this copy of windowshas exceeded the maximum numbe rof lalowed activations
20:15:15 <ehird> fuckwits
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20:19:51 <tombom> oh dear
20:20:23 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Windows+XP+Professional%22+%22Belarc+Advisor+Current+Profile%22+key%3A
20:20:27 <ehird> Radaaa!
20:20:37 <Deewiant> ehird: FCKGW-... ?
20:20:45 <ehird> Deewiant: Does that still work?
20:20:58 <Deewiant> No, I was inquiring as to whether that one was what you used
20:21:03 <ehird> No
20:21:08 <Deewiant> Because obviously, it doesn't work ;-)
20:21:09 <ehird> I used an actual legit key
20:21:17 <ehird> From a copy of Windows I own
20:21:18 <ehird> :|
20:21:26 <ehird> But I've used it on too many machines, ho ho!
20:23:32 <Robdgreat> but remember, it's to protect you from non-genuine software
20:24:26 <ehird> Anyone have a spare xp home key?
20:26:04 <Asztal_> If it's legit, you can call Microsoft to get more activations, I think. ;)
20:29:13 <ehird> Yeah, like I wanna do that.
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20:35:43 <ehird> First steps: http://imgur.com/ALIPP.png
20:37:09 <ehird> Anyone know how to hide the awful Sidebar in explorer?
20:44:39 <ehird> <XP> You can't delete this file cuz I don't want you to.
20:51:56 <Robdgreat> don't you just love that?
20:53:35 <ehird> yep, I had to download a freakin' extra app that just removes that limitation ><
20:54:02 <Robdgreat> what was it
20:55:02 <ehird> Called Unlocker
20:55:07 <ehird> http://ccollomb.free.fr/unlocker/
20:55:08 <psygnisfive> hey.
20:55:13 <ehird> Hi psygnisfive
20:55:16 <Robdgreat> well I meant what were you trying to delete
20:55:41 <Robdgreat> but I imagine that's an app I'll have some use for as well
20:55:42 <ehird> oh. various shite that windows puts in program files by default :P
20:55:47 <Robdgreat> Oh.
20:56:16 <ehird> Wow, the vm booted to windows desktop in ~5 seconds.
20:56:22 <ehird> Did I remove slowdowneverything.dll?
20:56:41 <Robdgreat> amazing
20:57:01 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
20:57:03 <ehird> THE FILES ARE BACK!!!
20:57:10 <ehird> Except now they're all lowercase.
20:57:40 <ehird> Robdgreat: http://imgur.com/ALR79.png
20:57:56 <psygnisfive> eugh
20:58:01 <psygnisfive> i had a horrible dream last night D:
20:58:09 <psygnisfive> and ehird, you just reminded me off it
20:58:16 <Robdgreat> ah i see
20:58:23 <ehird> psygnisfive: did it involve windows
20:58:26 <psygnisfive> yes :(
20:58:36 <ehird> XD
20:59:13 <psygnisfive> specifically, it involved a mac that had been loaded with some sort of horrible program that force-ran windows (or some fake windows like program) and wouldnt give control to the user
20:59:27 <ehird> heeehehehe
20:59:46 <ehird> Hmm. When you remove a lot of crap frmo a windows system you quickly learn the fastest ways to get around.
21:00:03 <psygnisfive> dude it was so horrible :(
21:00:05 <ehird> For instance, the best way to run any program you don't have a shortcut to, or open any directory, is Windows-R.
21:00:15 <ehird> Windows-R: It's like Quicksilver for XP.
21:00:28 <psygnisfive> yes :P
21:00:30 <psygnisfive> only not as awesome
21:01:12 <FireFly> Or like krunner for KDE
21:01:40 <psygnisfive> Krunnel, a pastry closely related to the cruller
21:01:49 <psygnisfive> .. krunner*
21:03:02 <ehird> I seriously just saw windows boot up in 13 seconds till full responsiveness
21:03:02 <ehird> XP!
21:03:06 <ehird> That's crazy
21:03:13 <ehird> (Counting right from when the bios switches over to windoze)
21:03:18 <psygnisfive> craziness
21:03:56 <ehird> I don't have the service packs; wonder when I'll get that message box spam? :)
21:04:17 <ehird> Robdgreat: any ideas on how to eradicate those phantom folders?
21:04:21 <ehird> They're all empty
21:04:52 <Robdgreat> I don't know :/ I've never tried I guess
21:07:43 <ehird> Wow, the process list actually fits without a scrollbar.
21:07:47 <ehird> http://imgur.com/ALWLP.png
21:08:28 <psygnisfive> sfgkjadfklgj stop it ehird D:
21:08:35 <ehird> stop clicking.
21:08:41 <psygnisfive> i dont know what it is until i dod! :(
21:09:55 <ehird> I wonder if I should follow Good Easy to the letter, and install Netscape 4. :P
21:10:05 <psygnisfive> yes.
21:10:30 <ehird> Hahahah no.
21:11:06 * ehird installs opera because it's lightweight
21:13:57 <psygnisfive> http://i.gizmodo.com/5185498/tesla-model-s-electric-sedan-prototype-has-a-giant-touch-dashboard?skyline=true&s=i hotness
21:14:35 <ehird> ugh, that must be a pain to use
21:15:00 <lament> ouch
21:16:08 <Asztal_> you'll never get rid of "xerox" from program files.
21:18:06 <ehird> Asztal_: why not
21:18:13 <Asztal_> http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2004/11/16/258220.aspx
21:18:20 <ehird> crap, raymond chen?
21:18:21 <Asztal_> Windows File Protection ensures that it's there.
21:18:24 <ehird> it is evidently undeletable
21:18:27 <Asztal_> if you disable that, maybe :)
21:18:45 <ehird> can you disable it?
21:18:46 <ehird> how?
21:18:49 <ehird> I think you can
21:18:50 <ehird> just dunno how
21:19:03 <Asztal_> I don't know, but those programs that patch uxtheme.dll do it somehow.
21:19:10 <ehird> http://www.pctools.com/guides/registry/detail/790/
21:19:14 <ehird> ^_______________________________________________________^
21:19:32 <ehird> aha
21:19:32 <ehird> You may disable WFP by setting the value SFCDisable (REG_DWORD) in HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\ SOFTWARE\ Microsoft\ Windows NT\ CurrentVersion\ Winlogon. By default, SFCDisable is set to 0, which means WFP is active. Setting SFCDisable to 1 will disable WFP. Setting SFCDisable to 2 will disable WFP for the next system restart only (without a prompt to re-enable).
21:19:35 <ehird> that's easier
21:19:38 <ehird> from microsoft.com
21:20:29 <ehird> Important: You must have a kernel debugger attached to the system via null modem cable (for example:I386kd.exe or Windbg.exe) to use SFCDisable = 1 or SFCDisable = 2.
21:20:30 <ehird> LOL WUT
21:20:41 <ehird> Warning! Windows File Protection is not active on this system. Would you like to enable Windows File Protection now? This will enable Windows File Protection until the next system restart. <Yes> <No>.
21:20:41 <ehird> Clicking Yes will reactivate WFP until the next system restart. This message will appear at every successful logon until SFCDisable is set to 0.
21:20:44 <ehird> LOL WUT
21:23:50 <tombom> a kernel debugger attached to the system via null modem cable
21:23:54 <tombom> best requirement
21:28:47 <ehird> This is going worryingly well
21:28:55 <ehird> Maybe thi sisn't actually windows
21:29:26 <Asztal_> if you like, you can stop programs putting things in My Documents by deleting it and creating a file called My Documents.
21:29:34 <ehird> Oohhhhh.
21:29:36 <ehird> err
21:29:37 <ehird> laggy keybbbbbboard
21:29:40 <ehird> That would be nice. I shall do that.
21:30:07 <Asztal_> It may break some programs, maybe.
21:30:18 <ehird> Asztal_: It doesn't let me delete it :(
21:30:25 <Asztal_> >:(
21:30:51 <Asztal_> run a LiveCD in your VM :)
21:31:22 <ehird> lulz
21:32:07 <ehird> Asztal_: this windows vm thinks it has an Intel Core 2 Duo @ 2.17GHz... with 192MB of ram
21:32:08 <ehird> :D
21:33:26 <ehird> Huh, what text editor is the done thing on windows?
21:33:26 <ehird> Not code editor
21:36:28 <ehird> Yay, I get the pleasure of using the fucktarded WINDEYS UPDAYT
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21:39:44 <nooga> huh?
21:39:50 <ehird> huh?
21:40:27 <FireFly> huh?
21:40:28 <ehird> huh?
21:40:39 <nooga> <ais523> ehird: a spellbook, a wand, food, and a sink, all in individual rooms?
21:40:39 <nooga> <ehird> ais523: OR the parse tree of +/%# ?!
21:40:39 <nooga> <ais523> parse trees are two-dimensional nowadays?
21:40:42 <FireFly> :(
21:41:15 <FireFly> nooga, if you had "huh?":ed, we'd have a palinbromic huh
21:41:22 <FireFly> s/b/d
21:41:37 <nooga> heeh
21:41:44 <nooga> didnt notice
21:42:02 <nooga> huh?
21:45:07 <FireFly> huh?
21:51:54 <ehird> bleargh
21:54:43 <ehird> to use a serial for sp3 i need to upgrade to sp3 but to upgrade I need to activate XD
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22:00:31 <zzo38> Maybe someone should invent a new card game based on INTERCAL
22:02:23 <zzo38> Also I think functional INTERCAL description on CLCLC-INTERCAL is now good enough to implement all Unlambda operators, what do you think?
22:02:32 <ehird> Can it do c?
22:02:43 <zzo38> I think so.
22:03:41 <zzo38> I tried to write Unlambda in CLCLC-INTERCAL but I'm not sure if the operators is correct yet because I cannot test it. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/esoteric/CLCLCINTERCAL/unlambda.txt
22:03:59 <zzo38> Does it look right to you? Probably there is some mistake because it is untested
22:04:27 <ehird> I don't really understand but it looks cool
22:04:53 <zzo38> Do you think it can do c?
22:05:06 <ehird> It looks OK
22:08:21 <zzo38> It says label (7) is for c but label (8) and (9) and (10) are also used as part of the c function. I'm not sure if there is a better way
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22:10:23 <zzo38> Until you or me learn the INTERCAL way of programming it might be a bit confusing whether or not it works, you have to follow it slowly to understand. But once you or me it more used to CLCLC-INTERCAL (if you are insane also) then you should be able to understand the programs more faster.
22:11:52 <ehird> I'm insane, so that's a good start
22:13:40 <zzo38> See if you can follow the program slowly at least to see if there is something I missed while doing the same. Eventually if CLCLC-INTERCAL is implemented then I can learn it faster, but it will take a while to learn it at first for sure!
22:15:33 <ehird> Is there anything that would make it hard to implement?
22:15:35 <ehird> I might have a shot.
22:16:12 <zzo38> If you have question or comments please ask it. On IRC and/or on the [[Talk:CLCLC-INTERCAL]] page
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22:19:35 <FireFly> :>
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22:22:14 <zzo38> I'm not sure what would make it hard to implement
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22:40:35 <oerjan> <ehird> Is it coded in Háskóli?
22:41:22 <oerjan> back off from that weapon, you are not experienced enough to use it safely.
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22:43:49 <oerjan> <ehird> Asztal_: Are they trying to say the good thing is that you can organize your code with packages and then run pointless operations on these packages?
22:44:00 <oerjan> isn't that sort of like ML functors?
22:49:13 <Asztal_> an example: http://moonpatio.com/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/raw?id=1988
22:49:41 <Asztal_> it uses the "quicksor" module, which uses the "<" and "=" given directly below it
22:50:03 <Asztal_> I don't know ML :(
22:56:51 <oerjan> module Int_set = Set.Make (struct
22:56:51 <oerjan>                              type t = int
22:56:51 <oerjan>                              let compare = compare
22:56:51 <oerjan>                            end)
22:57:12 <oerjan> Asztal_: that's an ocaml example
22:58:27 <oerjan> it creates an anonymous module defining a type t = int and how to compare it, and then uses the Set.Make functor to create a module for handling int sets
22:58:42 <oerjan> (from http://www.ocaml-tutorial.org/modules)
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23:32:22 <ehird> 21:41 oerjan: back off from that weapon, you are not experienced enough to use it safely.
23:32:39 <ehird> One word the forced side-effect removal of the code.
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23:33:26 <oerjan> Parse, your sentence doesn't.
23:34:18 <ehird> It is a snowclone.
23:34:29 <ehird> Originator: "One word the forced indentation of code thread over."
23:35:11 <oerjan> Parse, that sentence still doesn't.
23:38:51 <ehird> Yes, well.
23:39:59 <ehird> > ATTACK TROLL WITH SWORD
23:39:59 <ehird> Joe Clark deftly deflects your parry.
23:40:01 <ehird> — Mark Pilgrim
23:42:55 <ehird> Yikes:
23:42:56 <ehird> The goal of invariant sections, ever since the 80s when we first made the GNU Manifesto an invariant section in the Emacs Manual, was to make sure they could not be removed. Specifically, to make sure that distributors of Emacs that also distribute non-free software could not remove the statements of our philosophy, which they might think of doing because those statements criticize their actions.
23:43:00 <ehird> — rms
23:43:09 <ehird> Every day I seem to find something rms says that's more ridiculous & idiotic than the last thing.