00:26:58 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:32:09 `.d`.c`.d`.c`.d`.c`.d``e`````````````.H.e.l.l.o.,. .W.o.r.l.dii```````````````iid.l.r.o.W. .,.o.l.l.e.H.`````````````e``d.`c.`d.`c.`d.`c.`d.` 00:33:16 don't try that in the unlambda interpreter in C, it revealed a bug in the e function... 00:33:37 how does it work? 00:34:10 mainly it uses . not just to print, but also to escape things that would otherwise be syntax errors 00:34:18 (when reversed) 00:34:22 oh it's palindromic 00:35:32 yeah i got inspired by the recent reddit post 00:35:42 stackoverflow actually 00:37:43 -!- Dewio has joined. 00:41:41 oerjan: Great, now i'm writing an unlambda interp. 00:42:43 yay! 00:43:46 oerjan: In machinec ode. 00:43:48 Except not really 00:43:52 Ooh, wait. 00:43:57 Unlambda is compilable, isn't it? 00:44:10 theoretically at least somewhat 00:44:21 oerjan: er, the only oddity is just c isn't it? 00:45:32 * oerjan puts the palindrome on the wiki 00:45:37 oerjan: is it not? 00:45:38 also d 00:45:57 but i made a sort of compiler in ocaml 00:46:04 right, I saw it 00:46:05 forgot about d 00:46:07 although 00:46:11 oerjan: you can just treat d as 00:46:15 a data structure (D ) 00:46:16 it's not really much more than a proof of concept 00:46:20 it just makes ` a bit of a different operator 00:46:21 well sure 00:46:29 but then you get further from compilation 00:47:07 oerjan: er, all that changes is ` 00:48:14 oh and it's (D ) 00:50:04 I meant 00:50:06 pass the thunk 00:50:29 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 00:56:02 oerjan: hmm wait 00:56:04 you can do 00:56:09 ``ddi can't you? 00:56:16 yep 00:56:23 argh! 00:56:29 though `dd is equivalent to i 00:56:37 er no it's not? 00:56:39 it's equivalent to d 00:56:42 sure it is 00:56:53 ? 00:57:25 because the inner d is not evaluated until the whole of `dd is applied, by which time it is too late not to evaluate the argument 00:57:34 er 00:57:39 but ``dxy is `xy 00:57:54 so ``ddi is `di 00:57:57 if x is an expression, that's not the same 00:58:04 o.o 00:58:10 it changes when x is evaluated 00:58:22 huh? 00:58:28 *the time when 00:59:08 (1) when you evaluate `dd you get not d, but a (d ) thunk like you mentioned 00:59:30 this does _not_ compare equal to d, so it does not prevent evaluation of an argument 00:59:37 ah. 00:59:43 are you sure this is spec behaviour? 00:59:49 or just an implementation artifact 01:01:18 definitely, it's mentioned: 01:01:22 "Another point to note is that ``dd`ri prints a blank line: indeed, `dd is first evaluated, and since it is not the d function (instead, it is a promise to evaluate d), it does not prevent the `ri expression from being evaluated ..." 01:01:30 ah 01:07:59 Marginalia is a nice word. 01:08:45 it's not so much used, i think, it may be a little, you know ... 01:12:30 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:14:18 oerjan: Marginalic? 01:15:12 that is not a word 01:15:24 Sure it is. 01:15:46 hm barely 01:16:08 those words lack a certain heterologicality 01:17:17 -!- Slereah has joined. 01:20:56 god I love WORDS and TYPOGRAPHY and <333 01:22:10 how typical 01:25:42 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 01:26:18 "I wonder what kind of developers here are trashing PHP? 01:26:18 My guess is ASP and Java people, which explains their irrational hatred of all things relatively efficient and solid." 01:28:39 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:35:05 oh 01:36:49 uh 01:38:04 lol idyots 01:51:22 * comex wonders what he's going to do this summer 01:58:51 lol 01:59:04 it's f**** winter 02:01:27 we're actually past the spring equinox, you know 02:01:49 DO YOU HEAR THAT, SNOW? GET OUT OF HERE! 02:04:54 and yet it's not far off 02:05:00 and I don't know what I'm going to do :u 02:17:04 -!- revcompgeek has joined. 02:57:26 so how does concurrent garbage collection work? 03:00:52 -!- oklowob has joined. 03:01:00 hello i'm an oklowob 03:01:12 i can see that 03:01:33 that must be true because i believe it 03:01:35 sounds ominous 03:02:45 this was pretty cool, i have about 4 hours of work to do by 8am, and i woke up at 4am 03:03:41 went to sleep at about 7pm, thought i'd take a tiny nap 03:04:14 well, south parks first 03:04:18 -> 03:13:08 i was thinking that you could fork(), mark-and sweep in the child, and then communicate back the set of unreachable objects to the parent 03:34:09 i saw this totally epic morphism yesterday 03:41:08 * oerjan swats oklowob -----### 03:43:01 incidentally that term has no google hits 03:50:44 In category theory an epimorphism (also called an epic morphism or an epi)... 03:51:09 * oerjan swats oklowob again -----### 03:51:17 "totally epic morphism" 03:51:21 no hits 03:51:25 oh 03:51:37 right 03:51:45 forgot the whole context 03:52:09 because i started wondering whether there actually were any totally epic morphisms yesterday 03:52:10 you think i would have swatted you if i didn't get the pun? :[ 03:52:31 and i just remember one trivial one 03:52:38 um and what's "totally" in this context? 03:52:47 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi. 03:52:59 :D 03:53:28 well i don't actually know what an epimorphism is, in the most general sense 03:53:36 just what it is in g and f theory 03:53:56 "g and f theory"? 03:54:06 well you need to expand those 03:54:25 wait 03:54:27 r theory 03:54:51 oh 03:55:06 basically a surjective morphism? 03:55:18 hm 03:55:18 not quite 03:55:26 same page two lines down 03:55:34 oh 03:55:37 and then the rest of that line 03:55:40 for the not quite 03:55:42 :) 03:55:46 there are categories where epic morphisms don't need to be surjective 03:56:36 so what's the definition? i mean there's one on wp but i just can't 03:56:57 e is epic if e f = e g implies f = g for all morphisms f and g 03:57:07 hmm 03:57:30 what about if f e and g e imply f = g? 03:57:31 unless it's the other way around, i think notation is a bit inconsistent 03:57:41 the other way is "monic" 03:57:49 ah it all comes together 03:58:15 um wait am i speaking the truth 03:58:35 well i don't care whether you are, i like it anyway 03:59:29 ok it's true if i get the directions correctly 03:59:36 so what are morphisms exactly? 03:59:47 homomorphisms + possibly extra? 03:59:48 f o e = g o e => f = g, epic 04:00:13 or are there morphisms that are straight 04:00:14 nothing extra, in those categories of gs, fs and rs :D 04:00:50 by extra i meant epimorhisms and shit, which are homomorphisms plus a few extra things 04:01:06 morphism is a generalization of homomorphism, but to other categories 04:01:10 so i'm thinking morphism = function that has preserves behavior 04:01:16 *that preserves 04:01:26 when mapped over a structure 04:01:37 yes, but ... 04:01:55 the thing is that what you choose as being morphisms _defines_ the category 04:02:20 grrr, no matter what i learn, there's always a higher truth :D 04:02:42 each of the categories of groups, rings and fields are _defined_ by making morphism = homomorphism 04:02:48 "well sure that's kinda correct but when you get to university, they teach you how this thing really works" 04:02:55 hmm 04:03:20 and that's common for algebraic structure categories 04:03:57 but you can define categories of other things, and also, you can define other categories on the same class of objects 04:03:58 i thought those groups were defined by their citizens and their operations :< 04:04:12 the groups themselves, yes 04:04:18 category is a technical term 04:04:18 *structures 04:04:29 well i don't know category theory 04:04:43 and i'm not even sure we have any here :| 04:04:56 well probably as one of the triannual courses 04:04:59 i never explained it to you before? i have this vague recall... 04:05:31 well clearly i didn't understand it then 04:05:47 to have a category, you need a class of objects and a class of morphisms between them 04:06:08 they need to satisfy a few extremely general rules 04:06:24 can you put that in group theory context 04:06:25 is the 04:06:28 class of objects 04:06:38 the groups themselves are the objects 04:06:40 the whole (G,*) thing 04:06:43 ohh 04:06:52 ohhhhh 04:06:54 ohhhhhhhhh 04:06:55 the homomorphisms are the morphisms 04:06:57 that's so hot 04:07:02 i love this 04:07:05 so awesome :D 04:07:37 okay so the general rules 04:07:47 or should i perhaps be able to guess 04:08:05 no probably not, i'm group biased 04:08:28 well you have a few maps. 04:08:43 maps? 04:09:18 hmm, need to start doing homewurk soon 04:09:18 for each morphism, you have a source object and a target object 04:09:24 this is of course very relevant to it 04:09:52 err 04:10:05 how is that a rule isn't it just part of the type of the operation 04:10:08 and for two morphisms, if the target of one is the source of the other, then you have their composition 04:10:15 hmm 04:10:18 oh 04:10:59 anything else? 04:11:18 for each object you have an identity morphism 04:11:43 id_A o f = f = f o id_B for any morphism f : B -> A 04:11:54 where A and B are objects 04:11:58 yes right 04:13:09 finally, if f : A -> B, g : B -> C and h : C -> D, then h o (g o f) = (h o g) o f 04:13:32 (f : A -> B means that A and B are the source and target of f) 04:14:05 hmm... 04:14:11 that's the whole definition of a category, i think 04:14:13 what could A mean in group theory? 04:14:20 like... 04:14:26 "permutations" 04:14:36 A is a group 04:14:48 is it one certain group 04:14:57 like "S4" 04:15:05 could be 04:15:28 and not like the set of S_n for different n 04:15:31 's 04:15:43 each morphism has a unique source and target 04:15:58 well that's how homomorphisms work so i should know that 04:16:01 but just checking 04:16:33 cuz i suck at this 04:16:44 hmm 04:16:52 so you can actually get interesting theory out of this? 04:17:06 are you familiar with the category Hask? ;D 04:17:32 well no 04:17:44 in Haskell are the objects types and the morphisms functions? 04:17:46 but i'm sure i would be amused if i were 04:17:50 oh. 04:17:53 the objects are haskell _types_ and the morphisms are functions between them 04:18:35 makes sense 04:18:41 oklowob: well categories are an extremely general thing 04:18:58 oerjan: that doesn't answer my question 04:19:44 um 04:20:16 neither does that! 04:20:43 sheesh students are so demanding these days 04:20:47 okay now that i know all category theory, should probably make some more coffee and start doing calculus with a different angle 04:21:03 that's just the definition of a category 04:21:20 teachers are so pedantic these days 04:22:08 the "interesting" stuff happens when you pile on other definitions by the bucketful, and then you discover that those definitions crop up in many of the example categories 04:22:19 i know the definition *and* that they are an extremely general thing. 04:22:35 epic and monic are just the tip of the iceberg 04:22:54 oh dear 04:23:06 hmm 04:23:09 ah right 04:23:15 wait 04:23:48 hmph, i hate this webirc thing 04:24:36 when i started group theory, i was like "can you seriously get something out of something *this* general" 04:25:59 after doing about 15 fully general proofs not related to any specific group i started believing maybe you can 04:26:09 then i heard there was a separate group theory course 04:26:31 maybe category theory would be a similar experience 04:27:30 probably 04:28:22 so what's after category theory 04:28:24 ;) 04:28:46 i don't think it's so much after as inside 04:28:56 you very soon start going meta 04:29:13 metamorphism 04:29:33 i'm not sure if that's a term 04:29:48 conceptual morphism from anything more general than category theory to category theory 04:29:54 I just created a quine for Ans! http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ans#Quine 04:30:43 but you define a new category where the objects are categories, and the morphisms are something called functors 04:31:25 so it *can* do itself 04:31:30 and then you define a category where the objects are _functors_, and the morphisms are something called natural transformations 04:31:39 :D 04:31:55 and then transformations of order n 04:32:10 i recall John Baez the theoretical physicist does work on those order n things 04:32:27 order 8 being especially interesting, and studied extensively 04:32:44 i'm not aware of that 04:33:17 do you have like separate mathematician mode and joker mode 04:33:21 i'm not being serious 04:33:30 i guess you are joking but if i thought you knew this stuff i wouldn't have dared assumed it :D 04:33:40 *assume 04:34:14 err 04:34:18 this is kinda embarrassing 04:34:22 but i can't parse that :D 04:34:28 but functors and natural transformations are actually fairly _basic_ concepts in category theory 04:34:28 * oklowob is kinda tired 04:34:40 *assume that you were joking 04:34:49 i mean it _could_ be true 04:35:08 maybe so 04:35:10 * oerjan is tired too 04:35:38 then there are monads, which come out of certain pairs of functors 04:35:54 but functors and natural transformations are actually fairly _basic_ concepts in category theory <<< yeah okay i'm getting a boner here where can i learn this stuff 8| 04:36:08 hmm 04:36:24 okay tell me a bit about monads, then i'll go 04:36:25 oh not sure, i never had a formal course on just category theory 04:36:41 it was sort of baked into the homological algebra stuff 04:36:56 ...homological? 04:37:16 homology is a theory from topology 04:37:35 well. i don't know topology :<< 04:37:54 topology is about extremely generalized geometry 04:37:59 please swat me about being a noob 04:38:03 nah 04:38:07 i don't even know much geometry really... 04:38:18 at least you know what it _is_ 04:38:25 :P 04:38:49 i guess that's how i defined knowing a subject earlier 04:39:11 homology theory was the main reason they developed category theory initially 04:39:28 i did read one article about topology, and how it's actually basically halting theory 04:39:39 O_o 04:39:41 and then one of the comments said something about uncountable sets 04:39:55 and that topology was more general, because of them 04:40:00 and i was like 04:40:01 k 04:40:13 sounds fishy 04:40:32 but as usual, there's probably some sense in which it is true 04:41:00 well i only understood the halting problem part of the text, and not where it was put in context 04:41:31 well there are unsolvable problems in topology, i've heard 04:42:17 well. i'm sure there's a morphism between those and halting then 04:42:28 heh 04:42:36 look at me already making CT references 04:43:45 anyway, this has been mind blowing, but seriously need to go do my homework right about now 04:43:47 or 04:43:58 maybe watch an ep of sp first 04:44:00 seriously need to go bed, here 04:44:09 *to 04:44:14 i has new bed 04:44:17 and it awesome. 04:44:35 it's like sleeping on pigeons 04:44:39 anyway bye -> 04:44:41 ouch! 04:44:49 bye 04:44:57 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 04:45:40 it's funny how different sleep cycles you see when talking with people from all over the world! 04:47:49 you might find http://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~sme/presentations/cat101.pdf interesting 04:48:15 I don't really know if it's any good because I know nothing about category theory, I was probably linked to it at some point 04:49:18 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:50:45 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.). 04:50:47 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 04:56:59 -!- oklowob has quit ("PJIRC @ http://webirk.dy.fi"). 04:57:16 -!- oklowob has joined. 04:57:24 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:57:41 -!- revcompgeek_ has joined. 05:13:29 -!- revcompgeek has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:14:42 -!- revcompgeek_ has quit. 05:28:50 sleeping on pigeons? lol 05:28:53 silly oklowob 05:34:47 ;;) 05:41:28 -!- revcompgeek has joined. 05:54:03 -!- revcompgeek has quit. 06:04:06 -!- rodgort has quit ("Coyote finally caught me"). 06:04:18 -!- rodgort has joined. 06:08:23 -!- revcompgeek has joined. 06:20:39 -!- revcompgeek has quit. 07:37:36 oklowob 07:40:39 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 07:52:58 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:54 -!- mtve has joined. 08:28:18 -!- FireFly has joined. 08:41:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:49:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:07:43 -!- tombom has joined. 09:07:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:32:51 -!- neldoreth has joined. 09:35:23 -!- neldoret1 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 09:38:09 -!- neldoret1 has joined. 09:38:22 -!- neldoreth has quit ("leaving"). 09:39:34 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 09:58:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("X-Chat -> http://xchat.org <- At least when I quit I don't look like a lamer"). 10:03:06 -!- amca has joined. 10:36:50 -!- Judofyr has joined. 10:39:28 -!- Judofyr has quit (Client Quit). 10:55:54 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 12:04:38 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:05:13 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 12:15:43 -!- ehird has joined. 13:09:21 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:21:26 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:27:41 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:50:51 -!- nooga_ has joined. 13:55:00 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%&&&%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% 13:58:05 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:58:16 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell"). 14:00:00 That's a lot of food. 14:06:33 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:11:43 i'm hungry 14:12:51 what's Finnish national dish? :D 14:20:23 I'm not sure we have anything that's so very Finnish. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuisine_of_Finland#Traditional_dishes and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mämmi though. 14:21:18 I really don't get the latter one. It's like they were trying to make as close a replica of excrement they could. 14:22:35 Love the Wikipedia article, though. "Interest in mämmi has risen even in non-Scandinavian settings, due to Finns' eager attempts to offer the idiosyncratic foodstuff to foreigners.[weasel words] Some have served it as an exotic specialty; others, a joky test (due to its superficially unappetizing appearance).[weasel words] The growing interest in reviving old recipes and the general enthusiasm for past ages and local things in these international times may a 14:22:35 lso play a part in this.[weasel words]." 14:23:36 looks tasty 14:25:23 "In 2007, it [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karjalanpaisti] was selected as the national dish of Finland by the readers of the Finnish newspaper Iltalehti." That's not very official, but I guess it's as close as it gets. 14:25:47 It's not as strange as the mämmi thing, though. 14:26:13 hehe 14:26:16 nothing special 14:26:33 my grandma cooks something quite simmilar 14:27:19 This place is not really known for the cuisine. 14:28:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Polish_cuisine_dishes mehehehehe 14:28:29 hehehe 14:28:31 rotfl 14:32:01 im huuuuuuuuungryyyyyyyy :C 15:09:48 eeeeeeeeeat 15:41:25 02:13 bsmntbombdood: i was thinking that you could fork(), mark-and sweep in the child, and then communicate back the set of unreachable objects to the parent 15:41:28 that is basically the idea 15:41:32 you start a new thread 15:41:35 fork() 15:41:39 mark, send back unreachable objs 15:41:45 then that thread in the parent frees them 15:41:47 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:41:48 = 0-delay 15:41:55 it gets more complicated for non-mark-and-swee 15:41:55 p 15:42:03 also, you can multithread the marking and the sweeping, for extra multicore powah 15:46:22 "Anyhow when your UI freeze, it's often due to programs who are camping the Kernel CPU time somehow having an *exclusive usage of the machine, hence the freezings (usually it's a sign of a badly written software). 15:46:23 if it's window you could have been unlucky and your machine could be loaded with malwares * 15:46:25 (my two cents where wrong there)" 15:46:27 I love bullshit. 15:47:24 I really don't get the latter one. It's like they were trying to make as close a replica of excrement they could. 15:47:34 isn't that generally the case for national dishes? 15:48:14 also, the finnish national dish is of course koskenkorva, duh 15:48:21 03:35 oklowob: but functors and natural transformations are actually fairly _basic_ concepts in category theory <<< yeah okay i'm getting a boner here where can i learn this stuff 8| 15:48:25 functors are liek trivial 15:50:45 thus basic 15:51:13 ergo. 15:51:22 okay so I'm a try compile ghc once mores 15:51:22 nomics. 15:51:38 oerjan: where did nomic come from 15:52:03 ergo, nomic. 15:52:28 Proposal: oerjan must properly justify his use ofthe word nomic. 15:53:01 Vote AGAINST: it's obvious 15:53:14 especially when you know i said it 15:53:28 oerjan: HA! I have tricked you! 15:53:36 oh noes! 15:53:38 You have played nomic once more just now! 15:53:41 Mwahahahahaha 15:54:14 Hokay, mkdir ghc, cd ghc. 15:54:15 * oerjan does a rotating ehird swat ###-----.-----### 15:54:22 Time to fail in ~/ghc. 15:54:45 oerjan: now all I have to do is ask if you could email me to test my new mail server, and have it forward the message to agora-business! 15:54:55 HA HA HA HA HA 16:00:15 i don't care if I die from compiling ghc 16:00:17 I MUST DOO IT 16:00:23 if it's the last thing I doooooooooooooooo 16:00:26 oooooooooooooooooo 16:00:49 -!- ehird has set topic: topic ain't done changed since 2009-03-17 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 16:01:06 oh dear famous last words 16:01:11 oooooooooooooooooooooooo 16:01:14 oooooo 16:02:00 interesting, by putting it in the topic it becomes a lie 16:02:37 yes 16:02:54 If I don't say "CREAMPUFF" in the next 5 seconds, this sentence is false. 16:05:06 and thus the universe disappears in a, um, well. 16:05:38 cream puff? 16:05:45 of logic. 16:05:49 right. 16:06:31 ) wget http://haskell.org/ghc/dist/6.8.2/ghc-6.8.2-darwin-i386-leopard-bootstrap.tar.bz2 16:17:51 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:19:46 mämmi is good 16:27:25 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:28:19 hi ais523 16:28:22 hi 16:29:51 AnMaster: IWC :D 16:30:03 oerjan, read it hours ago yes 16:30:09 and I agree it was funny 16:30:25 I'd say hilarious even 16:31:02 Very few things are hilarious 16:31:27 ehird, this one was if you have followed that theme since the start (which was IWC strip 1) 16:31:33 well not that long 16:31:42 3 16:31:59 mämmi 16:32:01 oerjan, oh was the quest introduced in strip 3? 16:32:05 mämmi mämmi mämmi 16:32:08 no, fantasy was 16:32:25 oerjan, ah... which was first then? 16:32:30 * AnMaster looks 16:34:05 516 16:34:24 ah 16:34:34 oerjan: is that palindromic Unlambda hello, world yours? 16:34:45 yes 16:34:51 that's pretty impressive 16:35:04 thank you :) 16:35:31 where? 16:35:37 nooga_: on the wiki 16:35:47 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unlambda 16:38:06 i think the method can be used for a general program, after some substitution of .x and ?x to prevent reverse syntax errors 16:39:25 in the wiki program i just made sure most of the .x'es were consecutive. 16:40:08 hmm... ``k`i.x.i 16:40:15 is equivalent to .x 16:40:26 kixi 16:40:30 and isn't a syntax error when reversed, as long as you can deal with matching the backquotes somehow 16:40:38 actually ``k.x.i is simpler 16:42:40 the method for matching the backquotes has a strange parity problem, which leads to an extra i in that program 16:43:11 oh yes, I was too fixated on the i.x.i pattern to realise you could get rid of an i in the result 16:43:14 basically `.d is neutral on the left while d.` adds two functions on the right 16:43:18 kixi 16:43:21 kixikixikixi 16:43:33 it SOUNDS like an idiom. 16:45:21 hmm 16:45:29 since when have IWCs have license watermarks 16:45:55 hmm 16:45:56 since 2241 16:47:11 no older than that 16:47:18 oh 16:48:43 2000 has a straight copyright 16:50:12 2209 starts with the license thing 16:52:43 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:55:23 There should be an editor that is a bunch of decoupled shell commands. 16:55:29 Not like sed, that's way too bloated. 16:55:33 It'd be unixy. :P 16:58:58 So, my ghc compilation appears to be working so far. 16:59:09 well 16:59:17 like TECO? 16:59:28 TECO is one big program… 16:59:39 but it's funny, so what's the problem? 17:00:11 "I want a pony." 17:00:18 "Like, this Chicken?" "bwuk bwuk bwuk bwuk" 17:00:21 "That's a chicken..." 17:00:25 "But it goes bwuk, so what's the problem?" 17:00:30 yep 17:00:35 that was exactly my point 17:00:45 I see. 17:02:54 i only see what is seen to me 17:05:33 oh the whitest boy alive is so cash 17:09:29 WHAT THAT MADE NO SENSE 17:09:48 ehird: that kind of editor probably could be coded using bash and sed 17:09:50 :] 17:09:54 no shit :P 17:09:58 but sed is too bloated for that 17:10:09 aliasing sed shit with bash commands 17:10:41 no u 17:11:49 stupid idea is stupid 17:12:12 nooga_: does your brain operate only with inane memes? 17:14:11 probably it operates on cigarettes, gas, alcohol and abstract cucumbers 17:14:24 abstract cucumbers. 17:14:39 are these, like 17:14:41 not real cucumbers? 17:16:13 idk, but if I imagine one it seems to be made of aluminium 17:19:11 ghc is the slowest compilation process I can possibly imagine 17:22:13 http://blog.fishsoup.net/2009/03/26/reinteract-0-5-0/ this looks awesome 17:22:39 ais523: you should look at it 17:22:42 it's like mathematica for python 17:22:54 is that awesome? 17:23:05 ais523: err, not the buggy slow part 17:23:07 oh, ok 17:23:09 the REPL part 17:23:09 :P 17:23:21 non-textual output, reevaluatingt 17:23:23 that sort of stuff 17:24:37 it doesn't seem to have a Mathematica-style stdlib 17:24:41 which is the only good thing about Mathematica 17:24:44 ais523: it had play() 17:24:46 for sounds 17:24:50 mathematica has that sort of stuff 17:24:56 it appears to just be a UI library 17:24:59 errrrrrrrr 17:25:01 what? 17:25:03 it's not a ui library 17:25:12 as in, a way to output python stuff as graphs or sounds or whatever 17:25:20 rather than for actually doing the processing, that appears to be all python 17:25:26 no... 17:25:29 ais523: http://fishsoup.net/software/reinteract/reinteract-demo.png 17:25:37 if you can't see the resemblence to mathematica there you must be blind 17:25:39 ehird: did you click onto the reinteract wbsite? 17:25:48 click the image 17:25:53 what's there is a resemblance to mathematica's /output/ 17:25:55 not to its processing 17:26:06 ais523: yes, but you can also modify lines and have later lines recalculate 17:26:08 just like mathematic 17:26:09 a 17:26:15 you are missing the point of mathematica, again 17:26:33 I don't care; I found those features useful 17:26:33 it's not going to have all the super-optimised mathematica pi-calculating and integrating and cellular-automating stuff 17:26:37 more useful than the stdlib 17:26:45 yes, but you can get them anywhere more or less 17:26:53 if you aren't using mathematica for the stdlib, why buy it? 17:26:54 ais523: you CAN—but I've never seen it 17:27:06 I've seen it in MathCAD, which is a commercial applicatoin 17:27:09 but it's the same stuff as that 17:27:28 tbh, even Excel has all the features you ask for, apart from the sound 17:27:35 it has re-evaluation when you change things, and graphs 17:28:03 ais523: show me a repl that has those features for an open-source, general-purpose programming language 17:28:22 well, Mathematica doesn't, so it's a bad comparison 17:28:27 (I wouldn't call it general-purpose) 17:28:32 ais523: well, not general purpose 17:28:35 just not restricted 17:28:44 Excel is certainly useless in that respect 17:30:11 http://programmersdiary.today.com/2009/03/27/core-war-the-king-of-programming-games/ 17:30:19 impomatic just can't stop writing the same introductory article about core war 17:30:21 over and over again 17:30:25 on different blogs 17:31:45 well, that's one way to spread the word 17:32:01 * ais523 thinks someone should implement a RL microprocessor that uses redcode as machine language 17:32:08 as it's a pretty good asm 17:32:20 SPL 17:32:29 -!- nooga_ has quit. 17:34:31 http://cybernetnews.com/2006/12/06/cybernotes-200-firefox-extensions-installed-at-one-time/ 17:50:50 -!- olsner has joined. 18:03:10 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:04:08 I just want to try some of the features of PocketMonsterIRC. Send a message to it with a command that you want. Only some command support so far: + - * / rnd 18:04:16 And also the CTRL+A VERSION command should work 18:04:36 zzo38: what's its nick? 18:04:47 ais523: PocketMonsterIRC 18:05:22 + 2 2 18:05:28 whoops 18:05:30 For example: PRIVMSG PocketMonsterIRC :rnd 2d6+1 18:05:33 hmm... it uses forward-polish 18:05:41 -!- FireFly has joined. 18:05:55 it doesn't seem to have anything to do with pokémon, though 18:06:11 Actually it uses only one calculation at a time. So you can do "+ 2 2" but you can't do something like "+ * 3 4 + 2 2" because that won't work 18:06:41 It will support pokemon later. I already made the element table so far and a few things having to do with pokemon, but not enough that it will work yet. 18:07:46 I also implemented the "ro" command which is a public dice-roll (useful for D&D and other dice games over IRC), but unfortunately I have not yet implemented the command to tell them what channel you want so it won't work yet. But I will implement that feature very soon. 18:08:05 the usual method to run a bot is to get the bot to join a channel 18:08:10 and to respond to messages there in a certain format 18:08:12 like this: 18:08:15 ^bf ,[.,]!This is a test. 18:08:15 This is a test. 18:08:22 the ^ tells fungot that the message is destined for it 18:08:23 ais523: ice boxes keep your food fresh. to the sea; there's no point in crying over a hundred pounds. his eyes, by w.b. yeats), which means the exalted one, two! and never use a pick-axe because his armor is light and hot; that region is glowing and burning, and no wasps. if she kills the lynx, she accidentally turned her skin green, and scholars, by w.b. yeats) 18:09:38 There are reasons I don't. But when you tell the bot what channel you want it will automatically join any channels that any users have told PocketMonsterIRC to join (for public dice rolls or for watching a pocket monster game going on between two users) 18:09:46 what reasons? 18:10:40 So it doesn't interfere with other bots on the same channel. Also because I find my way more reasonable. But I will post the source-codes for this program under GNU GPL so if you want to, you can make your own version doing whatever you want it to do, of course (once it is at least half finished) 18:10:58 zzo38: you add a prefix 18:11:01 so that it doesn't conflict 18:11:05 like #foo instead of foo 18:11:07 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 18:11:12 also, the IRC spec says you should reply like: 18:11:14 NOTICE #channel :foo 18:11:16 instead of PRIVMSG 18:11:17 see, #foo is olsner's quit command 18:11:21 because bots aren't supposed to respond to PRIVMSG 18:11:27 so if you use NOTICE it won't interfere 18:11:33 ehird: PocketMonsterIRC already replies with NOTICE 18:11:41 have you tried it? 18:11:44 ok, so what's the problem? 18:11:50 The bot does respond with NOTICE, doesn't it? And you try sending a NOTICE to it, it won't respond. 18:11:57 OK 18:12:01 so how would it interfere? 18:12:44 I find it better if messages are specifically addressed the program you want to send it to. 18:13:12 zzo38: but other people should see the results 18:13:18 in the channel 18:13:32 But maybe I will implement the public prefix option too, maybe not. If I do it is likely to be something that a user tells the bot they want to be able to use that prefix on a channel they have told it to join in order for it to work 18:13:59 If you use the "ro" command the other people will see the results. (Once I implement the "join" command, of course.) 18:14:25 And I will implement the join command as soon as this testing session is finished (which shouldn't take long) 18:15:09 So far it only understands two IRC commands PING and PRIVMSG and it only understands one CTRL+A command VERSION 18:16:15 -!- zzo38 has quit ("I told PocketMonsterIRC to also quit."). 18:30:57 -!- Mony has joined. 18:33:41 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:33:53 -!- PocketMonsterIRC has joined. 18:35:27 Now I implemented "join" in PocketMonsterIRC so you can roll publicly. Once I finished implement pocket monster game it will be you can watch the game also, but only the things that are allowed to be public (for example, percentage of HP but not the exact value, unless the option tells you that both players are allowed to know the exact value) 18:36:07 Just try PRIVMSG PocketMonsterIRC :join #esoteric 18:36:16 And then PRIVMSG PocketMonsterIRC :ro 2d6+1 18:36:20 And it work! 18:36:28 cool 18:36:31 <-> PocketMonsterIRC> join #esoteric 18:36:33 it didn't join... 18:36:36 heh 18:36:48 oh, it's here already 18:36:51 zzo38: i tried proving the look-and-say thing, took about 5 minutes without paper 18:37:28 (or 2) 18:37:32 zzo38: I'd suggest that the question should be sent to #esoteric, as well as the answer 18:37:41 You mean the look-and-say thing which does repeated run-length encoding. I prove it more quickly than that, but I still don't quite remember... 18:37:45 so people on non-telnet clients don't have to type out /msg PocketMonsterIRC every time they say something 18:37:55 and so logbots see the question 18:37:59 zzo38: i didn't exactly time it 18:38:18 I know the proof but not how long it took, but it was pretty quick and without paper (maybe 1 minute or 2 minutes) 18:38:31 and you don't really have to remember it, it's pretty much straight from the definition of a step 18:38:41 right 18:38:42 And PocketMonsterIRC will tell the type of dice to the channel if you do public roll dice 18:38:52 it's still a pain to roll it 18:38:55 zzo38: yeah it's hard 18:39:01 you have to type /msg PocketMonsterIRC all the time 18:39:03 it's about as difficult as doing it on telnet, whether you have a GUI client or not 18:39:04 instead of like 18:39:11 |ro 100d1000+1000 18:39:13 which is just one key 18:39:16 whereas doing it to-channel would be slightly easier on telnet 18:39:20 due to being easier to spell 18:39:24 and much easier with an IRC client 18:39:34 If you have some real IRC client, wouldn't it like have some sort of window for private conversations? I don't know because I don't have any IRC client, I just use netcat 18:39:41 zzo38: yes, it would 18:39:44 and that's the problem 18:39:47 It does but you have to switch a lot 18:39:50 having to go to a separate window is annoying 18:39:53 Which would be a pain when playing pokemon... 18:40:45 Ya maybe I will implement a prefix mode. However I will make it so that every user who wants to use it has to set the prefix they want to use 18:41:10 why? 18:41:13 that sounds irritating... 18:41:20 more to the point, it could be very confusing 18:41:47 also, we can't have botloops if the bot doesn't respond to a channel 18:41:50 and botloops are fun 18:41:58 oklowob: what proof? that it grows indefinitely? (i don't think the cosmological theorem would take that short to prove, you have to classify 92 atoms) 18:41:59 We can't have botloops anyway ais523 18:42:01 it uses NOTICE 18:42:07 oerjan: that you can never have 333 18:42:09 which is blindingly obvious 18:42:12 oh that 18:42:15 yes 18:42:23 in a literal sense 18:42:27 I thought about it and I went blind :( 18:42:47 Just send something like "join channel" and "prefix ,," to PocketMonsterIRC, and then any message you send to that channel if it starts with two commas it will remove the two comma and handle it as a message from you. 18:42:48 oerjan: no fours 18:42:52 well it's slightly less obvious if you are working in a base 18:43:03 since then it only applies "eventually" 18:43:11 ehird: oh, ofc, it's actually complying with the RFC 18:43:47 What's ofc and what's complying with the RFC 18:44:01 ofc = of course 18:44:01 ofc=of course 18:44:04 rfc=the irc RFC spec 18:44:12 which says that bots should respond with NOTICE 18:44:22 and complying with the RFC, in this case, using NOTICE for automated replies like you're supposed to, rather than PRIVMSG like everyone actually does 18:44:36 it would help if NOTICE wasn't annoying in every client ever 18:44:37 And it does respond with NOTICE. Of course I read the RFC! How do you think I connected to this IRC? 18:44:49 zzo38: trial and error...? 18:44:52 oerjan: has it been proven that's the shortest way to prove it? 18:44:54 a tutorial/reference from google? 18:44:58 i mean, that's how most people do it 18:45:12 oklowob: er what? i didn't give any proof 18:45:20 I proved it on my own and I think you should learn to do so also. It isn't that hard 18:45:26 are there any proofs of shortest proofs? 18:45:34 oklowob: yes, but they're too long 18:45:35 * oerjan proved it ages ago 18:45:39 (sorry, couldn't resist) 18:45:44 wait proved what 18:45:48 oklowob: in principle that's undecidable 18:45:52 zzo38: prove what? 18:45:58 *proved 18:46:12 that it grows infinitely? 18:46:25 oklowob: Not sure. It is the repeated RLE that never has 4 or 333 18:46:59 I proved it on my own and I think you should learn to do so also. It isn't that hard <<< who was this addressed to? 18:47:08 [please say oerjan] 18:47:23 oerjan: you said you need to classify 92 atoms 18:47:29 I won't tell you who that was addressed to 18:47:34 and i made a little joke out of that 18:47:37 zzo38: why? 18:48:02 oklowob: for the cosmological theorem, which says that everything splits into atoms 18:48:44 oerjan: do you need to classify the atoms to prove it splits into atoms? 18:48:46 And why are NOTICEs annoying in IRC clients? And how are NOTICEs annoying in IRC clients? 18:48:55 NOTICEs aren't annoying in my client 18:48:56 zzo38: why won't you tell me that? you're a strange person. 18:49:02 [17:34] [Notice] -PocketMonsterIRC to #esoteric- zzo38:ro 2d6+1 3 = 6; 4; 7 18:49:09 that's what it looks like in my client 18:49:14 as opposed to [17:48] And why are NOTICEs annoying in IRC clients? And how are NOTICEs annoying in IRC clients? 18:49:15 oklowob: no, i don't think so. i think i proved it. all you need is to show that you get boundaries that never collapse. 18:49:17 which is what a privmsg looks like 18:50:03 oerjan: yeah that's the automaton way, i just feel like you could do it even simpler, somehow from the same thing that gives the no fours result 18:50:08 OK, well depending on the client you could modify the client to work better. But I want my program to work properly as long as it is compatible with IRC 18:50:21 zzo38: why won't you tell me why you won't tell me that? 18:50:53 zzo38: why won't you tell oklowob why you won't tell oklowob why you won't tell oklopol who the message was addressed to? 18:51:00 s/oklopol/oklowob/ 18:51:17 oklowob: um it's fairly simple. and since _some_ boundaries _do_ collapse, it cannot be that much simpler 18:51:21 zzo38: "why won't you tell oklowob why you won't tell oklowob why you won't tell oklowob who the message was addressed to" -- why won't you tell oklowob? 18:51:24 oh this is endless fun 18:51:32 Please try to figure it out by yourself. That is why I don't tell you 18:51:41 erm how can we infer that 18:51:54 22|33 -> 2223, boundary destroyed 18:51:55 ehird: why won't you tell me why zzo38 won't tell oklowob why he won't tell oklowob why he won't tell oklowob who the message was addressed to? 18:52:52 ("ro d" rolls 1d6+0) 18:52:54 i think zzo38 misunderstood this world 18:53:26 GHC COMPILED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 18:53:26 also the reason is he wants me to figure it out for myself 18:53:28 oklowob: No I didn't embed any puzzle or anything. You have to figure it out by reading the other messages and infering the context, if you can do that. 18:53:32 WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT 18:53:35 zzo38: but why :D 18:53:46 oklowob: you have to figure it out 18:54:13 oklowob: iirc the clue is that certain strings that start with 1 or 3 tend to step to strings that keep starting with 1 or 3, and vice versa for 2. 18:54:32 and that prevents enough boundaries from collapsing 18:54:34 zzo38: it just makes no sense no matter who it was addressed to 18:54:52 Prelude> 2+2 18:54:52 4 18:54:55 woot 18:55:08 zzo38: was that the correct answer? 18:55:43 Was what the correct answer, to what question? Do you mean something like "Prelude> 2+2 4 woot" or a different answer/question? 18:56:02 zzo38: what i've been talking about all this time, that one line of yours 18:56:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:56:08 well, in Haskell, 2+2 is indeed 4 18:56:13 using the definition of + from the Prelude 18:56:18 i just don't see who you could possible have addressed it to, so i wanted to know if it was me 18:56:19 [please say oerjan] <<< now don't be rude :D 18:56:21 so I assume that was ehird's test that ghci was working 18:56:34 *possibly 18:56:39 * ais523 catches zzo38 in a butterfly net -----\XXXXX/ 18:56:47 My one line of mine was not addressed to anyone in particular. I hoped you would figure it out 18:56:51 * ais523 releases zzo38 again 18:57:51 zzo38: ah, i guess that makes the least sense, and you're kind of a cook. 18:58:19 I do cook sometimes but mostly I don't cook actually 18:59:01 -!- PocketMonsterIRC has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:59:09 -!- zzo38 has quit ("OK I will work on PocketMonsterIRC more"). 18:59:12 gourmet? 18:59:13 (drag racing on) 18:59:13 (mars) 18:59:13 yesa noodles and shit 18:59:13 *yes 18:59:13 ehird: I object. 18:59:26 oklowob: s/c/k/ 18:59:43 no that was intentional I believe 18:59:49 oh? 18:59:50 [for hopefully obvious reasons] 19:03:48 ohh 19:03:50 kook 19:03:51 yes 19:03:54 ominous raisins 19:03:55 that was mostly intentional 19:04:06 -!- impomatic has joined. 19:04:07 althought it was a mental premature ejaculation initially 19:04:10 Hi :-) 19:04:17 hi 19:04:22 but took me ages to figure out what you were correcting 19:04:37 i was trying not to be _too_ obvious 19:04:48 there was just one c :D 19:04:59 that actually was just poor luck 19:05:04 *pure 19:05:06 "why would he correct my cook into a cock" 19:05:13 "that can't be it" 19:06:12 so, should i go buy beer, drink it alone, and do math? 19:06:22 i've always wanted to try that 19:06:27 wow I ran into a developer who rejected a patch on the grounds that it broke on BeOS... 19:06:39 AnMaster: don't be dissin' BeOS! 19:06:39 well, that's a good reason to reject a patch 19:06:43 ehird, not my patch 19:06:52 if it breaks on /anything/, it's probably nonportable in some way 19:06:52 i mean, saying 'wow' at it 19:06:52 BeOS or not BeOS, that's *hit by anvil* 19:07:45 oklowob: why not? time to start on the path to ruin, i say! 19:09:33 hit by anvil or not hit by anvil, that's *BeOS* 19:09:38 is BeOS POSIX? Or does it have a totally custom API? 19:10:03 RIP oklowob\nhit by flyswatter 19:10:13 oerjan: already started, now i actually *got* my first 4 19:10:15 beos is custom 19:10:16 c++ 19:10:18 dunno if i mentioned 19:10:44 ehird, ah interesting, then why on earth did the same developer suggest using POSIX threads for the same project in another place... 19:10:47 confusing 19:10:56 It probably supports pthreads. 19:10:57 oklowob: wait, you can by beer while ircing? 19:10:59 ah 19:11:01 no one out of the 20-30 or so got a 5 of course, but still 19:11:03 *buy 19:11:16 oh wait right 19:11:16 ehird, someone else mentioned that didn't work on windows though. 19:11:41 alcoholism next, then. 19:13:09 so one pro, is that all? 19:13:39 how are you not interested in my beveragility! 19:14:05 * ais523 catches zzo38 in a butterfly net -----\XXXXX/ <-- since when did you have a net ais523? 19:14:11 ... 19:14:14 AnMaster: the butterfly net's mine, I've had it for ages 19:14:15 AnMaster: not paying attention since 2008 19:14:18 AnMaster: you haven't been paying attention 19:14:24 oh ok 19:14:29 guys has AnMaster not been paying attention? 19:14:32 thought I should mention it 19:14:34 it's a lot nicer than oerjan's swatter 19:14:37 19:14:47 * oerjan swats ais523 to compare -----### 19:14:51 ouch! 19:15:02 ais523, nicer how? For the netter or the netee? 19:15:12 or whatever you call it 19:15:19 i don't think AnMaster has really paid much attention 19:15:28 ... 19:15:29 * oerjan catches ais523 in the saucepan ===\___/ 19:16:24 hm I always thought the "ee" ending to mean ~"a person at the receiving end of some action" was rather weird. 19:16:29 if you don't answer soon, i'm going to have to ask on my university project's channel, and get an unanimous yes. 19:16:30 looks out of place in English 19:16:44 AnMaster: probably from french 19:17:00 even the professors say drinking is an important part of university 19:17:16 oklowob, don't drink alcohol! 19:17:22 that's just cause they don't smoke pot 19:17:32 (okay one of those professors does play WoW 14 hours a day) 19:17:38 feminine perfect participles often end with ée, afair 19:17:39 heh... 19:17:46 (actually probably not a professor anymore) 19:17:52 18:15 AnMaster: oklowob, don't drink alcohol! 19:17:55 your arguments are convincing 19:18:09 yeah oerjan's was better 19:18:18 ehird, I didn't know I had to justify it. You could just ask for that 19:18:20 and I would 19:18:30 AnMaster: linux sucks! stop using it 19:18:37 oklowob: it was that sweet taste of undetectable sarcasm 19:18:38 "you suck, so no one cares if you ruin your life", to paraphrase 19:18:46 seriously, don't get drunk, know what alcohol does to your liver? 19:18:48 for example 19:18:56 know what life does to you? 19:19:07 ehird, justification? As you saw I'm prepared to do give it on demand 19:19:13 so I assume the same from you now 19:19:25 AnMaster: nope, sorry, try a £100 upgrade. 19:19:35 ehird, that made no sense 19:19:37 18:17 AnMaster: seriously, don't get drunk, know what alcohol does to your liver? <-- also, being alive has a 100% mortality rate 19:19:42 very dangerous, don't do it 19:20:16 ehird, sure, but alcohol has a potential to shorten your lifespan quite a bit 19:20:23 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 19:20:30 so does existing 19:20:33 AnMaster: it damages the liver, thereby strengthening it 19:20:38 consider, every second you live, you chop off one second from your life 19:20:40 pretty scary 19:20:41 ehird, not compared to baseline 19:21:01 ehird, your arguments aren't making any sense you know 19:21:01 AnMaster: so in effect you're suggesting we all have incredibly boring lives for the sole purpose of being able to live them and be bored longer? 19:21:05 that's shit logic. 19:21:34 ehird, if you consider alcohol to be what makes life worth living and interesting... then go ahead 19:21:35 i'm not sure not drinking is that boring. 19:21:45 AnMaster: some people like drinking alcohol 19:21:48 that's their prerogative 19:22:00 if you're not alcoholic I doubt it can majorly impact on your lifespan 19:22:01 ehird, are you saying that is true for you personally? 19:22:07 AnMaster: did I say that? 19:22:14 I'm saying that telling people 'don't drink alcohol!' is silly. 19:22:15 ehird, you seemed to be implying that 19:22:43 justifying doing X != thinking X is a thing I personally like 19:22:54 I always wanted a NeXTcube, I wonder if there's anything on Ebay 19:22:58 impomatic: yes 19:23:02 expensive though 19:23:02 telling people "don't drink alcohol" is better than telling people not to tell people not to drink alcohol 19:23:15 oklowob: i just like irritating AnMaster 19:23:21 then again by extrapolating a bit i guess i'm being the master jackass here. 19:23:55 (that's the ad infinitum joke, if you didn't get it over all those made up terms) 19:24:03 (like extrapolating) 19:24:12 :DD 19:24:17 oklowob: did you make up jackass 19:24:20 I've never heard that word :\ 19:24:38 it means jacking an ass 19:24:40 AnMaster: is your goal to live for as long as possible? Suppose you live to 80 rather than 70; are those ten extra years while already old, weak, and sick, worth having led a boring, shitty life? 19:24:43 ehird, so.. from the same logic you recommend that people should take their own lives if they are depressed, rather than trying to get psychological (or whatever is relevant in the specific case) help? 19:25:00 AnMaster: erm 'from the same logic' no I don't think that's the same logic at al 19:25:01 l 19:25:08 ehird, yes it is 19:25:16 argument ad i-said-so 19:25:17 lament: what if the last ten are shitty anyway? 19:25:21 then you'd just have more good years. 19:25:34 oklowob: that's not a reasonable what if. 19:25:41 what if we all had a pony 19:25:45 lament: is that a yes btw? god it's hard to get others to decide stuff for me 19:25:47 OPPC (one pony per child) 19:25:49 oklowob: the older you are, the shittier it gets - that seems a reasonable assumption to make 19:25:50 lament, regular exercise (hopefully) keeps you healthy for longer, at least increasing the probability for it 19:26:06 AnMaster: I think you totally misinterpreted him 19:26:17 ehird, no you misinterpreted me 19:26:29 ehird, it seems you need ~ to see sarcasm 19:26:35 AnMaster: your priorities in life seem really strange to me 19:26:37 can you stop saying that? 19:26:42 that was obviously not sarcasm 19:26:45 ehird, saying what? 19:26:50 I can't think of one person who would agree that was sarcasm in any way at all 19:26:54 and if it was, it didn't even mean anything 19:26:59 and nor was it funny 19:27:01 ehird, irony then? 19:27:05 ... no. 19:27:10 it applies even less to irony. 19:27:14 ehird, and I wasn't intending it as funny 19:27:25 exercise is horrible 19:27:25 god talking to you rots my brain 19:27:59 oklowob: fuck alcohol, just reserve 2 hours a day talking to AnMaster 19:28:01 " god talking to you rots my brain" <-- hearing voices in your head and believing them to be god. 19:28:10 AnMaster: ...what? 19:28:11 the problems with a missed comma 19:28:12 :P 19:28:41 " god talking to you rots my brain" <-- I believe you meant a "," after "god"? 19:28:43 ehird: you actually didn't get that, or it was too obvious to believe to be a joke? 19:28:45 wait 19:28:54 i don't really get how the joke was implemented 19:29:01 but it was so obvious you can get it anyway 19:29:03 yeah, exactly, that made no fucking sense 19:29:10 my brain filters out shit jokes from AnMaster 19:29:18 because the probability he's just being serious and stupid is high 19:29:47 ehird, ever heard of "dry humor"? 19:29:58 AnMaster: please don't try, it's embarrasing. 19:30:03 *embarrassing 19:30:14 ehird, for you it must be. I understand that 19:30:19 sorry to bring it up. 19:30:20 don't you mean 19:30:25 please don't *dry* 19:30:32 oklowob, heh 19:30:32 AnMaster: hey you've only used that one 70 times 19:30:36 it might become funny soon 19:30:42 hmm wait no probably not sorry. 19:30:48 didn't mean to disturb you 19:31:01 ehird, Your line was ambiguous. 19:31:08 so one pro, one con, can't i seriously get a third one? 19:31:10 Maybe time to learn lojban I guess. 19:31:18 oklowob: is it about you getting beer? 19:31:20 oklowob: pro 19:31:21 yes! 19:31:25 in fact 19:31:27 magical voting powers 19:31:29 pro * 2i 19:31:34 now your imaginary friend can have some too 19:31:39 * ehird so kind 19:31:44 okay so one pro, one con, one failure to vote 19:31:49 ehird, was that supposed to be a joke? 19:31:55 no 19:32:02 oklowob: ... 19:32:04 ehird, then what was it? 19:32:04 oklowob: okay just pro 19:32:11 ;;;;;;))))) 19:32:14 AnMaster: bait to make you ask whether I was joking 19:32:22 AnMaster: it was irony 19:32:29 and a dash of dry sarcasm 19:33:05 oklowob, indeed. dry irony was what I would have said it was. Except ehird didn't think it was before. 19:33:12 *shrug* 19:33:19 he was talking about what i said. 19:33:59 ehird, yes so was I. Both events were the same category. Except different persons said it. Now fuck off. 19:34:36 lol wut 19:34:42 AnMaster: don't lose your cool, while you may not enjoy arguing with ehird, i love reading it, and hope you continue it. 19:34:47 i think you have issues AnMaster 19:34:51 oklowob: damn you :D 19:34:58 oklowob, good thing I used ignore then. 19:34:59 :) 19:35:14 i love how he turns into everything he criticises me for when I anger him 19:35:15 AnMaster: well we all know how long declared ignores last 19:35:16 it's so funny<33 19:35:35 oklowob, that is true. ehird too tends to unignore quickly 19:35:37 *shrug* 19:36:23 okay beer time before shoppes close up, wish me luck. 19:36:27 ...or should i say duck? 19:36:32 no, i shouldn't. 19:36:33 -> 19:36:40 oklowob, but currently I got more urgent issues than arguing with ehird to do. Like watching paint dry. 19:36:43 anyway cya 19:36:51 oh so smooth. 19:36:54 will you marry me AnMaster? 19:36:56 AnMaster: that's a great line 19:36:57 ...paint dry ...humor? 19:37:03 oklowob: yeah I think it was an attempt 19:37:05 oklowob, sigh 19:37:06 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:37:07 poor guy :< 19:37:24 ais523, was that sincere? 19:37:52 well, I really enjoyed you saying it 19:38:05 and laughed literally out loud for about 3 seconds, which is quite a lot 19:38:16 we could sort of make a market for this 19:38:25 like, just have a really unfunny guy talk into a keyboard for hours 19:38:33 then we go through it and pick up the worst parts that are hilarious 19:38:35 and publish themmm 19:38:35 and I even think I used it before once... 19:38:56 you must not have been there then I guess 19:39:03 (or it wasn't this channel at all maybe) 19:39:16 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 19:39:16 err you think you invented "paint drying" joke? 19:39:17 :|| 19:39:44 :|||||||||||| 19:39:54 :||||||||||||||: 19:41:26 oklowob, ? 19:42:15 ais523, hm I think IFFI will need readjustments soon, I have a feature branch I'm going to merge and then new cfunge release within a few days or so 19:42:19 hopefully 19:42:24 wow, I'm so busy in RL 19:42:32 I'll even miss the 1 April typical release date 19:42:36 today I'm having a day off 19:42:47 ais523, I was planning to miss that too. releasing one day before 19:42:52 just because 19:42:54 maybe I'll work on C-INTERCAL today 19:43:29 hm I wonder why removing one unneeded branch in a core part of the loop made the thing slower... 19:44:02 I mean one test less every time a instruction is to be executed should not slow it down as far as I can see.. 19:44:23 ais523, any bright idea? 19:44:33 it might be mispredicting 19:44:48 I know that some JIT code nowadays adds extra jumps to the code 19:44:52 so it can be predicted more easily 19:46:03 ais523, gcc generated jump table both before and after... but now I moved all the "execute fingerprint instructions in A-Z range" into that jump table instead of having a test before if it instruction => 'A' && instruction =< 'Z' 19:46:19 ais523, the generated asm had a jump table without holes in both cases 19:46:29 as in a full jump table after even. GCC generated it that way 19:46:33 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:46:33 holes in the jump table shouldn't matter 19:46:56 ahh, plan9 is such a breath of fresh air 19:47:53 ais523, exactly it basically masked the value to 8 bits and then bitshifted it and used that to jump forward from %RIP and then do an unconditional branch from there to the relevant code block 19:48:25 well, a jump table will always be mispredicted, you can't do anything about that though 19:48:26 ais523, and processor docs seems to indicate that those should be well predicted on both AMD64 and Intel's CPUs. 19:48:29 unless you have a very advanced processor 19:48:34 ais523, err. 19:48:37 an unconditional jump is always predicted perfectl 19:48:39 y 19:48:47 the jump table won't be though 19:52:26 ais523, hm AMD docs indicate jump tables are recommended when there are a large number of branches 19:52:34 * AnMaster just checked 19:52:44 well, yes 19:52:55 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:52:56 you're going to normally get one misprediction both ways around 19:53:13 ais523, so what would be a way to avoid it? how about threaded funge space? 19:53:27 actually that would probably not work well 19:53:59 cache misses galore probably since you couldn't organise the code in a good way 19:54:12 what with the 2D stuff and such 19:55:08 and JITing it would make t impossible basically 19:55:20 or the jitting pointless 19:56:15 just design a CPU specifically for doing befunge 19:56:27 yes one exists indeed 19:56:39 ais523, I don't think "cache" was ever discussed for it 19:56:56 no, I don't think it was 19:57:08 err, that's what I said? 19:57:22 ais523, + it would probably end up slower than mainstream general purpose CPUs running an interpreter around the time it was finished. 19:57:32 depends on how it was fabricated 19:57:44 and more expensive of course 19:58:44 o 19:58:49 oko 19:58:49 ais523, what do you mean? I just mean that general purpose CPUs are getting improved so fast that even if your implementation was a lot faster when you started designing, when you were done it would be slower 19:59:11 the design needn't take long 19:59:17 it certainly wouldn't take years 19:59:19 maybe a few weeks 19:59:47 ais523, Hm... 20:00:25 ais523, able to beat a JITing funge on a high end general purpose CPU? Say, Intel's or AMD's latest and greatest one 20:00:47 well, if you make it using the same techniques as theirs, but have the funge interp hard-coded, it'll necessarily be faster 20:01:53 wait cpu's are improving? 20:02:22 yes, most people just don't notice because Windows deteriorates faster 20:02:33 Deewiant: pingify 20:02:50 ais523, well a JITing one could potentially optimise easier than you could, turning some instructions into bulk instructions operating on multiple words in memory at a time. Optimising >:#,_ and other common idioms 20:03:00 ais523, :D 20:03:25 ais523: i don't believe you 20:03:30 oklowob, yes the new ones can wait twice as fast for one second! 20:03:31 i dont' think AnMaster realises how fast silicon is 20:03:46 (missing comma again, sorry) 20:03:52 also I was missing one too 20:03:56 after "well" above 20:04:08 err so the cpu for befunge, first of all it would be stack based 20:04:17 that's been proven not to work 20:04:32 (read: slow) 20:04:32 oklowob, hm... stack in register file? 20:04:42 oklowob: the stack would be stack-based 20:04:52 I'm not sure how crazily expensive that would be 20:04:52 if you're implementing befunge, you are going to model the stack using the stack anyway 20:05:11 I mean registers aren't cheap 20:05:24 ais523: with jitting you'd probably use registers 20:05:48 well, yes 20:06:00 you could do the jitting in hardware, though 20:06:08 yes indeed 20:06:10 microcode 20:06:11 also you can't really collapse loops or anything if you implement the funge space in hardwar 20:06:11 e 20:06:12 that would make it much faster 20:06:16 all modern CPUs do that already 20:06:19 ... 20:06:21 ehird: pungize 20:06:29 I imagine you'd have something similar to a real processor, but optimised for jitting befunge quickly 20:06:38 well yes, but then it's clear you could just use a general purpose computer in the first place 20:06:45 oklowob, you can't really in befunge anyway if you implement t 20:07:03 since that is one befunge instruction each before switching context between threads 20:07:07 AnMaster: yeah all modern cisc's do that 20:07:08 round robin style 20:07:18 AnMaster: you still can, you just figure out relative speeds 20:07:25 microcode is just simulating riscs, some modern cpu's just use a risc in the first place 20:07:35 ais523, what if one ends up modifying the program path of the other 20:07:35 oklowob: *simulating ciscs 20:07:39 then you have serious issues 20:07:40 AnMaster: you have barriers for taht 20:07:42 *that 20:07:55 as in, each g or p instruction that could be problematic you make sure it runs at the right relative time 20:07:59 ais523, ok we need a funge fingerprint with memory write barriers next... 20:08:03 ais523: err right, yes 20:08:04 likewise, I/O would have to run at the right relative time 20:08:23 ais523, saw my concurrent hello world? 20:08:27 no 20:08:46 ais523, I have two versions, one using mutexes, the other wait free 20:08:46 Deewiant: what's the shit you have to put in somewhere to get profiling & docs w/ cabal? 20:08:48 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:08:50 :D 20:09:03 #vtf2*2+"olleH">:#,_'>11p> ><"dlrow">:#,_'>fb+0p@ 20:09:03 and 20:09:05 ehird: See .cabal/config 20:09:10 #vt"drwolH">:#,_@ 20:09:10 >"lo le">:#,_a,@ 20:09:10 kay 20:09:19 ais523, :P 20:09:29 Should have everything commented out at their default settings and be fairly self-explanatory 20:09:33 AnMaster: did you sneeze 20:09:41 oklowob, ? 20:09:50 AnMaster: nm, how does t work? 20:10:41 oklowob, create threads that run synced. As in one thread execute one instruction, then next thread executes one and so on following a round robin schedule 20:11:00 ofc, but is it fork or what? 20:11:23 Fork, child reflects 20:11:30 oklowob, t creates a new IP, inserting it ahead in the queue, child reflecting 20:11:35 stacks the same or different? 20:11:45 err, behind? ahead? Or depending on which what you look at it? 20:11:47 Copy of stack, possibly thread ID on top, I forget 20:11:56 Deewiant, no thread IP 20:11:57 thread id for other, nothing for other? 20:11:59 on stack 20:12:03 okay, so no stack changes 20:12:18 is there a concept of stack id? 20:12:19 err 20:12:20 thread id 20:12:25 Yes 20:12:30 oklowob, yes, you can check it with y 20:12:35 your own? 20:12:38 well one of the other things you can get with y 20:12:39 yes your own 20:12:41 how does ipc work? 20:12:45 p and g 20:12:49 ... 20:12:49 oklowob, writing to memory reading from memory 20:12:52 * oklowob is an idiot 20:12:54 IPC 20:12:56 yes 20:13:05 There are also fingerprints for direct messing out with other IPs 20:13:06 Deewiant, didn't RCS define some IIPC too? 20:13:09 At least IIPC 20:13:13 ah yes 20:13:26 if the set of loaded fingerprints are copied are copied or not is UNDEF 20:13:29 Hmm, I wonder what that 'out' is doing in that sentence 20:13:29 iirc? 20:13:36 Can't remember 20:14:14 Deewiant, to make clean it wasn't "messing in"? 20:14:21 s/clean/clear/ 20:14:25 weird typo 20:14:28 Yes, I suppose 20:14:48 "messing out" sounds like two threads groping each other 20:15:16 ais523, some fingerprint instructions would potentially be faster on GPCPUs 20:15:21 than on BCPUS 20:15:24 BCPUs* 20:16:36 ais523, consider those that benefit from SIMD for example. I think if you included all that the BCPU wouldn't be done in those few weeks you predicted 20:16:50 basic befunge 93: sure 20:16:56 or even basic befunge 98 20:18:14 Deewiant, How do you implement y? Any short cuts for low positive values to avoid pushing and popping as much? 20:18:20 None 20:18:25 mhm 20:18:48 I do what the spec says: push the whole thing then pop up to some point, save the value, pop the rest, push the saved value 20:19:34 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:19:42 Deewiant, that is a clear win in mycology I noticed, ay and fy seems very common. As well as some lower ones 20:22:41 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 20:22:57 Deewiant, I already avoided those below 10 for ages since they are easy to map to values, but doing it even higher up, as far as you know, proved a clear win 20:24:54 Deewiant, Err also y acting as pick doesn't do that correctly IIRC? 20:25:22 you need to reach down and only pop back to the point before y, not pop down all the way 20:25:28 Yeah, there's an 'if' somewhere before 'save the value' 20:25:28 I remember us discussing this before 20:25:35 ah 20:25:45 I can't remember these things by heart :-P 20:25:57 Deewiant, cfunge avoids popping by never pushing on the main stack :) 20:26:14 Well, popping is cheap 20:27:24 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 20:27:55 Deewiant, yes, that is true, but you don't just push a fixed value. setting to 0 is even cheaper (by a few cycles) ~~~~~ 20:28:08 seriously, it did turn out faster, but for other reasons 20:28:14 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:28:50 cache I suspect is one of them, since the env here is huge. Another is probably that you often end up needing to expand stack 20:28:54 due to the large env again 20:29:24 especially bad in programs using t 20:29:26 Well, the latter only happens once (per IP) 20:29:40 But true, if a lot of IPs are spawned which only ever do ay or something 20:29:43 Deewiant, true. Or when you do {y}{y} 20:29:44 :P 20:30:01 actually would need a 0 there to prevent { creating a mess 20:30:04 but you get the idea 20:30:06 Well your optimization doesn't help that case anyway 20:30:20 Deewiant, sure does. My temp stack is only created once per run 20:30:25 so it can grow once. 20:30:35 Oh, you have a single global stack for y values 20:30:38 Heh 20:30:51 static funge_stack* restrict sysinfo_tmp_stack = NULL; 20:30:51 and 20:30:52 I find that amusing for some reason :-P 20:30:53 if (!sysinfo_tmp_stack) 20:30:53 sysinfo_tmp_stack = stack_create(); 20:31:14 for mycology I should annotate that one as unlikely 20:31:19 since it calls y so often 20:32:07 Do you have a lot of #if OPTIMIZE_FOR_MYCOLOGY ? 20:32:09 Deewiant, and I don't even do that at all for low values to avoid having to even push and clear (since you can't reuse most of the y stack...) 20:32:32 Deewiant, no. I try to profile mycolgy, fungot, life.bf and a few other programs and optimise for the average 20:32:32 AnMaster: they say that a xorn knows of no obstacles when pursuing you. 20:32:43 but some of the stuff is only used by mycology 20:32:49 like certain fingerprints 20:33:03 Most? :-P 20:33:28 Deewiant, fungot uses surprisingly much of the stuff actually, apart from stack stacks 20:33:29 AnMaster: mars: the wumpus, by j.r.r. tolkien), living in fresh water. there aren't any penguins this far inland. there's nothing to shoot him and miss, there's also a chance that he'll up and move himself into another gale of laughter. she heard the spring click. weight slapped into her hand. it was under the oak root. bearing it down so far as to sit on it on the astral plane. 20:33:34 ^style 20:33:34 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft nethack* pa speeches ss wp 20:33:37 aha 20:33:44 Not obvious? :-P 20:33:58 Deewiant, I don't think I saw when fizzie added that one. 20:34:21 I don't know which ones were there either, but I instantly recognized both of those as Nethack 20:34:23 Deewiant, so I was wondering "what on earth, it looks like nethack" 20:34:29 s/wondering/thinking/ 20:34:44 since I wasn't aware of that it had nethack 20:35:04 fizzie, added nethack recently? 20:35:29 ages ago afaik 20:35:36 mhm 20:35:39 must have forgot then 20:35:56 Deewiant, anyway, there are some paths I can always optimise for. Like annotating foo = malloc(...); if (!foo) as unlikely to be the case 20:36:23 why even check malloc 20:36:35 have you ever got a NULL result from it legitimately w/ cfunge 20:36:40 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:36:48 since that would end up as abort in the end in most cases (apart from stack stacks, where I reverse to comply with the standard, but in some cases reversing isn't sane, like before program started, or whatever) 20:37:17 Hmm, that'd be cool actually 20:37:27 IP starts with the delta west if the whole source couldn't be loaded :-P 20:37:32 Deewiant, also how many programs would except 7 to reflect due to OOM when trying to grow stack? 20:37:43 or even be able to handle it 20:37:58 Depends on what they're doing 20:38:11 most programs would look like #v7#v8#v+#v\ and so on 20:38:27 If they know they're loading some potentially huge buffer to memory they might be careful about stuff like that 20:39:12 Deewiant, you couldn't even know there was no way + could reflect. What if you the implementation was written in a language where all allocations of the interpreter are on the heap? Like quite a few byte code interpreter iirc. 20:39:25 or even # 20:39:31 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:39:52 Deewiant, any instruction, even along the failure paths could potentially reflect then 20:40:30 -!- MizardX has joined. 20:41:15 just consider in some such language: while(true) { try { value = fungespace[posx][posy]; dispatch[value]; } catch (e) { reflect(); } } 20:41:27 Deewiant, what if allocating "value" ran out of space there? 20:41:52 but it preallocated and reserved some memory for OOM exceptions 20:42:02 Yes, that's a good reason for why the spec says something about OOM only for { :-P 20:42:55 Deewiant, IMO y is more likely to cause OOM 20:43:03 $ env | wc -c 20:43:04 5747 20:43:12 2029 20:43:30 yeah I know mine is too large 20:44:21 Deewiant, running with a clean env reduces mycology time by almost 0.010 seconds here 20:44:29 from 0.046 to 0.039 20:44:36 Hmm, why is G_BROKEN_FILENAMES set 20:44:52 err 0.007 not 0.010 20:45:00 Deewiant, what? where? 20:45:03 Here 20:45:11 Deewiant, distro? 20:45:15 Arch 20:45:30 hm 20:45:38 my arch system is shut off atm 20:45:43 http://bugs.archlinux.org/task/5487 20:45:47 that may be relevant though 20:46:26 I see /etc/profile.d/glib2.sh is 'export G_BROKEN_FILENAMES=1' 20:46:32 I think I'll remove it 20:46:54 Although an update will bring it back I guess 20:47:37 Hm, HUSHLOGIN=FALSE also seems useless 20:47:44 no 20:47:48 hushlogin stops the 'Last login: ' line 20:47:55 I have a ~/.hushlogin because I hate those 20:48:07 Deewiant, trying to optimise CCBI mycology time by external means? ;P 20:48:28 Nah, just cleaning up pointless crap from my environment 20:48:45 Deewiant, for me $LS_COLOR is the single longest one 20:48:59 I don't have LS_COLOR, I guess it'd be PATH 20:49:05 Followed by LD_LIBRARY_PATH 20:49:12 Oh, CLASSPATH wins actually 20:49:18 no LD_LIBRARY_PATH or CLASSPATH here 20:49:32 ah yes a CLASSPATH in fact: 20:49:34 CLASSPATH=. 20:49:39 shortest one I think 20:50:09 no=00:fi=00:di=01;34:ln=01;36:pi=40;33:so=01;35:do=01;35:bd=40;33;01:cd=40;33;01:or=01;05;37;41:mi=01;05;37;41:su=37;41:sg=30;43:tw=30;42:ow=34;42:st=37;44:ex=01;32:*.tar=01;31:*.tgz=01;31:*.svgz=01;31:*.arj=01;31:*.taz=01;31:*.lzh=01;31:*.lzma=01;31:*.zip=01;31:*.z=01;31:*.Z=01;31:*.dz=01;31:*.gz=01;31:*.bz2=01;31:*.bz=01;31:*.tbz2=01;31:*.tz=01;31:*.deb=01;31:*.rpm=01;31:*.jar=01;31:*.rar=01;31:*.ac 20:50:10 e=01;31:*.zoo=01;31:*.cpio=01;31:*.7z=01;31:*.rz=01;31:*.jpg=01;35:*.jpeg=01;35:*.gif=01;35:*.bmp=01;35:*.pbm=01;35:*.pgm=01;35:*.ppm=01;35:*.tga=01;35:*.xbm=01;35:*.xpm=01;35:*.tif=01;35[cut off, too long to paste on irc, would be serveral lines] 20:50:17 that is in LS_COLORS 20:50:18 no idea why 20:50:30 it alone is 1171 chars 20:50:31 Hrmph, my LD_LIBRARY_PATH has everything twice 20:51:02 Deewiant, my PATH used to have such a problem, I reported a bug on the gentoo bug tracker that the profile.d stuff was semi-broken when it came to that, it got fixed 20:51:41 I would have though that it's because it refers to itself put PATH does also and is fine 20:51:45 + t 20:52:04 putt? 20:52:07 becaust? 20:52:09 PATHt? 20:52:11 thought 20:52:14 ah 20:52:50 Actually PATH does have one duplicate entry. For a non existing directory. *greps* 20:54:09 aha, old file in /etc/env.d 20:54:11 fixed 20:54:56 Deewiant, I also see a lot of stuff like KONSOLE_DCOP and such 20:54:58 heh 20:55:14 KONSOLE_DCOP_SESSION KDE_SESSION_UID... 20:55:21 GENERATION=2 <-- what? 20:55:49 huh, related to gentoo's java stuff in some way 20:56:03 they could have used a less general name at least 20:57:05 Hmh, XDG_DATA_DIRS is also duplicated, I wonder why 20:57:32 that is /usr/share:/usr/kde/3.5/share:/usr/local/share here 20:57:42 XDG_DATA_DIRS=/usr/share:/usr/local/share:/usr/share:/usr/local/share 20:59:06 heh 20:59:22 As far as I can tell that really can't be happening 20:59:28 But it is anyway 20:59:42 Deewiant, grep /etc recursively 20:59:53 Yes, I did 21:00:37 mhm 21:00:48 It's in /etc/profile.d/xorg.sh which sets it to /usr/share:/usr/local/share if it's unset and prepends those if it's already set 21:01:08 Deewiant, then it must be invoked twice somehow 21:01:09 Actually, I guess that's been run twice 21:01:33 I thought, for some reason, that another variable it sets in the same way was not duplicated 21:01:40 It was just so short that I didn't notice :-P 21:02:40 Deewiant, the gentoo system is easier, it just puts files in /etc/env.d a script (env-update, which also runs automatically if a package install/uninstall/upgrade changes any file in /etc/env.d) then collects the vars from all file there and put it in /etc/profile.env, which is sourced by /etc/profile. 21:03:13 however some vars are treated specially, like instead adding entries to /etc/ld.so.conf if the var name is LD_PATH or something like that 21:03:16 which is a bit confusing 21:03:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:03:30 still, easier to debug 21:04:45 hm... How insane would it be to use self modifying C code. In general I mean 21:04:58 like overwriting something with NOP instead of testing every time 21:04:59 Depends on what it modifies and how much 21:05:13 Hm, right 21:05:16 I read that as 'to debug' 21:05:41 Deewiant, branch that will only be taken initially when creating resource, in the future it will reuse static resource 21:05:52 yet I don't want to create it on program startup if it is never used 21:06:13 I'm aware of that I would need a pure C fallback since this would differ between platforms yes 21:06:19 and compiles 21:06:22 compilers* 21:06:40 Deewiant, IIRC the linux kernel does something like that for dynamic trace points or whatever it is called 21:06:51 turned into NOP when not used 21:07:13 ais523, what do you think? 21:07:36 sorry, I haven't been reading 21:08:01 ais523, dynamically modifying the machine code on the fly to statically optimise away branches 21:08:27 heh 21:08:30 ais523, idea is to do it in cfunge for some stuff that won't change during program run more than once. I'm not sure how insane it is 21:09:00 ais523, flags for stuff like "resource initialised" stuff basically 21:09:19 is there any GCC extension to take the address of an inline ASM block 21:09:20 or such 21:09:27 ais523, ? 21:09:36 you know GCC best here 21:09:45 and somehow the kernel manages to do it 21:09:47 I know that 21:09:48 AnMaster: put a label inside the block 21:09:52 and you can use the label outside 21:09:59 I think you might have to declare it, though 21:10:09 hm 21:10:15 ais523, declaring a label? 21:10:29 mhm 21:11:14 actually I have no idea how to take the address of a label... 21:11:33 ais523, do you mean C label or asm label? 21:11:40 in gcc, labels are of type void*, and you can take the address of a C label using the prefix-&& operator (which is a gcc extension) 21:11:44 but I meant asm label in that case 21:12:00 ais523, and how would you take the address of an asm label? or declare one 21:12:07 that would be AT&T syntax for gas btw 21:12:21 An asm label is its address 21:12:23 AnMaster: I'm not sure, I'd have to look it up 21:13:26 Deewiant, hm. Ok. I guess a macro to generate the needed asm code would be a good idea. Both for creating such a branch and for turning one on/off 21:15:05 But really, self-modifying code is slow 21:15:18 Deewiant, oh? Not if you only do it once 21:15:26 I mean, sure yes if you modify all the time 21:15:38 but this would be "change once" 21:16:01 Deewiant, It may be slow still, depends on cache effects, but worth investigating 21:16:20 Here, let me quote from Intel's Optimization Reference Manual, Appendix E, Assembler/Compiler Coding Rule 57 21:16:23 Deewiant, also you could just mprotect() it as writable as well as executable and readable *once* 21:16:31 Deewiant, I'm much more interested in what AMD says 21:16:36 in general 21:16:52 "If code is to be modified, try to do it all at once and make sure the code that performs the modifications and the code being modified are on separate 4-KByte pages or on separate aligned 1-KByte subpages." 21:17:01 Why's that 21:17:44 Deewiant, Instruction L1 cache invalidation I'd assume 21:17:59 I was asking you regarding AMD 21:18:07 Deewiant, because I don 21:18:11 don't* have an Intel CPU* 21:18:19 well I do. an old Pentium 3 21:18:25 but my modern ones are all AMD 21:18:45 Right, of course everyone optimizes for their own CPU ;-) 21:19:50 Deewiant, I think AMD is more of the future than Intel. And yes avoiding self modifying code. Yet JIT compilers do it all the time, and some, like Java's JIT, optimise and inlines hot code sections on the fly 21:20:16 Deewiant, AMD docs talk about 64 bytes instead of 4 KB though... 21:21:26 AnMaster: more of the future than intel — seen nehalem? 21:21:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehalem_(microarchitecture) 21:21:47 I'd say it's in Intel's ballpark right now 21:22:47 What do you mean by more 'of the future' 21:23:20 Deewiant: as in, the future is with AMD, not intel 21:23:27 Deewiant, as in intel's designs still are quite bad compared to the ones of AMD.. 21:23:30 I don't think AMD has done anything comparable to Nehalem recently, so I disagree. 21:23:35 As an aside, what level of x86 extensions support do you have? 21:23:37 better than p4 time yes 21:23:47 SSE, SSE2, SSE3, SSSE3, SSE4, SSE4.1, SSE4.2, POPCNT? 21:24:09 Deewiant, personally MMX, SSE, SSE2, SSE3, 3dNow, 3dNow Extended 21:24:14 not sure about popcnt 21:24:21 also I have LM of course 21:24:27 (Long Mode, that is x86_64) 21:24:42 * Deewiant makes a mental note to use SSE4 just to spite you 21:24:50 Also, news 21:25:01 Just got mail from pyfunge's author: another interpreter being revived 21:25:01 Deewiant, I use SSE2 in some places... With pure C fallbacks 21:25:05 always pure C fallbacks 21:25:13 Deewiant, interesting 21:25:15 http://hg.mearie.org/pyfunge/ 21:25:22 how bad was it in mycology? 21:25:23 Passes Mycology according to him 21:25:39 Deewiant, what is POPCNT btw? 21:25:59 It used to fail to k IIRC, most semi-decent interpreters did 21:26:08 AnMaster: An SSE4.2 instruction with a separate cpuid flag 21:26:27 is there any fingerprint that changes the semantics of core instructions? 21:26:34 I wonder what redefining k inside a k-loop would do? 21:26:34 Yes 21:26:37 ais523, yes 21:26:42 ais523, IMAP for example 21:26:48 or FNGR 21:27:02 I would assume MVRS does too 21:27:14 possibly TRDS? 21:27:26 Nope 21:27:28 and possibly some other ones 21:27:42 Deewiant, yes it changes semantics of output after jumping backwards iirc 21:27:48 or something like that right? 21:27:53 Oh, right 21:28:02 True true 21:28:17 Also, pyfunge author says Mycology has a bug 21:28:24 Deewiant, oh... details? 21:28:32 and what do you think of that bug 21:28:46 But I also found that it reports that PyFunge uses buffered I/O, despite it is configured to use unbuffered I/O (N.B. it is temporarily disabled for code refactoring though) and returned 16 for first cell of "y" command. I traced back and once concluded that it works incorrectly when first cell is bit 0 and 1 unset and other bit (bit 3 in my case) is set, but I'm a bit unsure that my interpreter is correct so I mailed. 21:28:52 21:29:25 ah 21:29:29 AnMaster: mind testing it out for me? I don't have a funge-development environment properly set up 21:29:44 Deewiant, cfunge doesn't have unbuffered IO 21:29:53 it has line buffered and fully buffered only 21:29:58 AnMaster: I know, just set the bit and see what Myco says 21:30:02 Or unset, whatever 21:30:12 Or rather, push the exact value he does :-P 21:30:15 Deewiant, which value should I or in now again? 21:30:26 hm 21:30:31 0x16? 21:30:34 is that correct 21:30:43 No, 16, right? 21:31:04 as in 0x10? 21:31:22 Does your C compiler not accept non-hexadecimal integer literals? :-P 21:31:37 Deewiant, yes it does, but my code currently uses hexadecimal ones there 21:31:38 Try both 0x10 and 0x16 just in case 21:32:01 You also realize that your code will continue to work if you change it to decimal? :-P 21:32:04 BAD: 1y claims = is unimplemented, yet 5y claims to know what it does 21:32:10 I get that with 0x10 21:32:17 What about input bufferedness 21:32:18 y claims all of the following: 21:32:18 That buffered I/O is being used 21:32:18 BAD: after y the top cell is greater than 15 21:32:19 that to 21:32:21 too* 21:32:36 O_o 21:32:37 for 0x16 I get: 21:32:38 y claims all of the following: 21:32:38 That i is implemented 21:32:38 That o is implemented 21:32:38 That buffered I/O is being used 21:32:40 BAD: after y the top cell is greater than 15 21:32:47 WTF is that BAD doing there :-D 21:33:22 As for the un/buffered thing I think the logic is probably correct, the printing there is just something I've broken often 21:33:43 But seriously, tell me 21:33:50 What's up with that BAD :-P 21:33:53 err 21:34:00 1 cell containing flags (env). 21:34:01 Least Significant Bit 0 (0x01): high if t is implemented. (is this Concurrent Funge-98?) 21:34:01 Bit 1 (0x02): high if i is implemented. 21:34:01 Bit 2 (0x04): high if o is implemented. 21:34:01 Bit 3 (0x08): high if = is implemented. 21:34:01 Most Significant Bit 4 (0x10): high if unbuffered standard I/O (like getch()) is in effect, low if the usual buffered variety (like scanf("%c")) is being used. 21:34:04 Further more significant bits: undefined, should all be low in Funge-98 21:34:07 that is the spec 21:34:11 Yes, I know 21:34:44 Deewiant, and I don't know why that BAD is there for 0x10 since it seems a valid way to say unbuffered IO 21:35:08 Maybe it's just a brain fart and should say 31 21:35:21 Deewiant, yes maybe 21:35:21 I'll assume that :-P 21:35:57 Okay, now I'm at 5 bugs and 4 TODOs for Mycology 21:36:08 Deewiant, probably. Also I think your test for mycoinput would break on unbuffered IO 21:36:12 err 21:36:14 mycouser 21:36:17 or whatever it was 21:36:41 Deewiant, btw what are those other 4 bugs? 21:36:43 'They each suspend the program and wait for the user to enter a value 21:36:46 one would be R in some fingerprint iirc 21:36:51 So no, it should work :-P 21:37:12 Deewiant, err it wouldn't wait for user to press enter would it with unbuffered? 21:37:30 No, but that doesn't matter does it? 21:37:53 Deewiant, yes it may do for multi-digit number input 21:38:07 depending on how you interpret it 21:38:12 or? 21:38:13 No, since & just reads up to a non-numeric 21:38:16 ah 21:38:22 Deewiant, what about STRN I then? 21:38:24 So '123x' with unbuffered would send the 123 21:38:34 STRN is one of Mike's; all bets are off 21:38:47 that's a nice way to express it 21:39:00 it actually made me laugh out loud (to quote ais523) 21:39:12 impomatic: ( -- 0gnirts)Input a string 21:39:15 Gah 21:39:21 Deewiant, err what? 21:39:33 what do you mean impomatic? 21:39:33 I pasted 'I( -- 0gnirts)Input a string' 21:39:46 And evidently the tab character after the I decided to tab-complete 21:39:47 Deewiant, your tab completion is totally bonkers then 21:39:51 ah 21:39:56 ok not that bonkers then 21:40:00 :-P 21:40:02 But yeah, anyway 21:40:03 it must have been a literal tab in the original source 21:40:08 It's an HTML table 21:40:14 But yeah, anyway 21:40:20 That is the entirety of the docs for I 21:40:25 So... like I said. 21:40:40 ais523, well that would depend on client, if I use Emacs with X frontend that pastes as a literal paste in ERC, but in console I would get the effect Deewiant described 21:40:50 (weird) 21:40:53 AnMaster: The other bugs are FILE's 1R at EOF and STRN's opinionated G test 21:41:11 Deewiant, that is two. You said 4 in total? 21:41:23 I think I said 5 but I meant 4 21:41:32 And the additional two are the two you confirmed regarding to 1y 21:41:37 ah 21:41:41 that counts as two I see 21:41:43 right 21:42:35 Deewiant, btw, your STRN I test is opinionated too iirc. for your mycology results page you said STRN I was BAD if it didn't use same input buffer as core input and BASE input 21:42:48 which I think is UNDEF 21:43:08 The 5 TODOs are TIME's day-of-year not being output for local time; testing INDV with { properly (I think CCBI implements it improperly now); 3DSP; '; mycoedge 21:43:09 but using same buffer is probably saner yes 21:43:26 I'm fine with being opinionated unless it's a stupid opinion 21:43:40 Deewiant, it should be DISCOURAGED then or something 21:43:43 rather than BAD 21:43:47 just IMO 21:44:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:45:07 Deewiant, no comments? 21:45:22 Not really, no :-P 21:45:28 Like I said, I'm fine with being opinionated 21:46:13 Deewiant, I remember you saying that mycology didn't support unbuffered IO once in the beginning when I was working on cfunge 21:46:18 It's a bunch of hogwash, but I support your right to say it 21:46:20 or maybe near the end of bashfunge 21:46:30 Yes, I was thinking about something like that just now as well 21:46:43 Deewiant, I still think you should support it 21:46:45 But I couldn't think of any good reason for that 21:46:52 Well, I mean 21:46:58 How is it not supported 21:47:10 Deewiant, I think the reason you used the reason "meh, too much work" or something like that back then 21:47:25 So was I clueless then or am I now 21:47:44 Deewiant, I'm still wondering about input on unbuffered 21:50:36 brb 21:53:25 yes, most people just don't notice because Windows deteriorates faster 21:53:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirth's_law 21:56:51 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 22:03:50 oerjan, partly that is justifiable. But only part.y 22:03:53 partly* 22:04:25 party till you drop 22:04:29 I mean, of course GUIs are more resource intensive than text only interfaces. 22:21:21 err 22:21:33 guis have changed from their early days? 22:21:58 err 22:22:03 you didn't actually imply that 22:29:02 oklowob, well a bit, but not that much 22:29:09 and you can pre-render parts of it 22:29:16 and then just draw images where needed 22:29:32 oklowob, or if you want those horrible 3D effects... Well I guess you need more computer then 22:29:36 but then it's your own fault 22:29:47 you can just choose to continue using a simpler GUI and it works fine 22:30:04 of course if you use Windows you might be in trouble... 22:30:09 but again: your own fault 22:33:34 3d effects are nice, but i don't actually want them, i want a good 3d ui 22:33:43 which has nothing to do with effects 22:33:46 just projection 22:34:23 oklowob, I prefer a clean 2D UI with as few un-needed effects as possible. Feature rich: yes. Design bloat: no. 22:34:38 wow that's kinda surprising 22:34:55 So I like KDE. But I use a graphically minimalistic theme. 22:35:00 KDE 2-ish theme 22:35:04 oklowob, it is? 22:35:11 oklowob! :D 22:35:11 anyway i just thought you said guis have gotten more resource intensive over the years, and i was like wut, they are exactly the same' 22:35:15 <3 22:35:20 but then i realized i misread. 22:35:23 i got into the university of maryland :) 22:35:29 haha 22:35:31 for a second 22:35:39 oklowob, they have also got slightly more resource intensive 22:35:41 i thought that was gay slang for getting married :D 22:36:00 AnMaster: yes, but little enough for me to say they haven't changed at all. 22:36:26 oklowob, yeah, basically black and white -> 8bpp -> 32bbp 22:36:33 the thing is, as you bluntly pointed out, there isn't really anything you can add, except useless effects (unless you come up with a drastic change) 22:36:42 and well useless effects 22:37:36 oklowob, you will still need a graphic card able to handle something better than 320xwhatever in more than 2 colors. Which was pretty rare 20 years ago or so 22:37:41 psygnisfive: i don't remember(/know?) what university you were in, so that's not as interesting as it should be, probably. 22:38:07 the important thing is, i got into a great graduate program. :) 22:38:10 also, brb 22:38:20 good for you 22:39:34 21:32 AnMaster: oklowob, I prefer a clean 2D UI with as few un-needed effects as possible. Feature rich: yes. Design bloat: no. 22:39:35 21:33 oklowob: wow that's kinda surprising 22:39:43 that's post-ironically funny 22:40:09 past the iron post 22:40:25 post the past iron pest 22:40:47 * oerjan wonders if there is a term for things that are almost, but not quite, non sequiturs 22:41:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:41:11 :=) 22:41:36 oerjan, you just said it 22:41:41 "almost, but not quite, non sequiturs" 22:41:59 or maybe "Dent non-sequiturs"? 22:42:01 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----### 22:42:10 er, what? 22:42:11 i should probably eat some of this... whipped... porridge 22:42:29 oerjan, ... that was obvious 22:42:33 (a kind of pink goo) 22:42:36 i mean a highbrow term, of course 22:42:36 oerjan: it's the obvious shit reference. 22:42:45 oerjan, don't try to act like you never read HHGTTG. 22:42:49 I won't believe that 22:42:53 oh _that_ Dent 22:43:02 oerjan: shit isn't it 22:43:11 i was wonder if you were putting a non sequitur into your term 22:43:15 *ing 22:43:34 okay now amuse me 22:43:37 oerjan, yes you made a reference to "almost, but not entirely unlike, tea" but turned it backwards 22:43:38 * oerjan swats ehird too -----### 22:43:54 oh i didn't notice i did 22:43:57 oerjan, what did ehird say? 22:44:00 what? 22:44:04 oerjan: i said nothing. 22:44:09 that hhgttg was shit 22:44:13 lol 22:44:17 he implied it 22:44:17 that's evil 22:44:17 <3 22:44:20 er 22:44:21 no 22:44:21 :D 22:44:23 i didnn't 22:44:23 oerjan, the books were great. 22:44:25 :||| 22:44:26 you know that 22:44:37 oerjan you lying lier 22:44:38 actually i just read the first two ones 22:44:50 oerjan, oh? I recommend reading all of them 22:45:02 oerjan: shit isn't it 22:45:03 AnMaster: oerjan took the high road and made a joke only people who see ehird would understand, while still telling you what happened 22:45:19 oklowob: stop explaining it!!!!!!! 22:45:21 oklowob, hm 22:45:43 my fingers are good at drumming 22:46:01 they know what they feel so to speak 22:47:11 AnMaster: i vaguely read a rumor that the later books get more depressing 22:47:12 http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/artikel_2657409.svd (in English). The actual petition is at http://expressen.wufoo.com/forms/free-dawit/http/true/ 22:47:32 oerjan: book 4 is cheerful 22:47:34 book 5 isn't. 22:47:38 oerjan, well that is true 22:47:40 oh shit, I am bleeding 22:47:41 fuck :< 22:48:30 ehird: nice to have known you 22:48:39 its just my finger 22:48:39 i assume it's highly lethal 22:48:41 but it's annoying 22:48:44 and hurts. : 22:48:45 :P 22:48:52 oerjan, what did he do? :) 22:49:02 AnMaster: cut off his finger, i think 22:49:20 bleeding to death 22:49:22 in an annoying way 22:49:25 oerjan, intentionally or by mistake? And how? 22:49:29 i did that today 22:49:32 a it 22:49:34 *bit 22:49:35 Virtually I assume? 22:49:41 i think it was an accident, he said "oh shit" 22:49:58 oerjan's campaign of misinformation is beautiful 22:50:31 oerjan, Probability of it being a real accident? (In which case I hope he gets better but decides to spend more time away from the computer due to having issues writing with a missing finger) 22:50:49 AnMaster: oh shit, I am bleeding 22:50:57 that certainly looked genuine to me 22:51:01 oerjan, hm 22:51:07 XDD 22:51:08 oerjan, possibly non-lethal 22:51:17 well let's not assume things 22:51:26 oerjan: i feel faint 22:51:29 oh god 22:51:30 * AnMaster takes a quick look in raw log 22:51:30 the pain 22:51:34 dammit 22:52:06 :ehird!n=ehird@208.78.103.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :XDD 22:52:07 what? 22:52:14 I think someone is joking 22:52:14 extreme 22:52:15 pain 22:52:19 fuck you AnMaster 22:52:23 tha's all youf cuking say 22:52:25 oh well 22:52:26 when this pain 22:52:27 agho 22:52:29 help 22:52:35 help 22:52:39 * AnMaster closes raw log 22:52:54 : (( 22:53:01 oerjan, not funny 22:53:03 pain is only an illusion 22:53:18 i only feel pain when i consider it useful 22:53:40 oerjan, now lend me your fly swatter so I can use it on you. You deserve it 22:53:41 dude its not a fucking joke 22:53:44 oerjan tell him 22:53:46 i need help 22:53:50 the bleeding it's gushing 22:54:14 oerjan: if AnMaster gets to then i wanna too 22:54:21 oklowob, on who? 22:54:23 gushing is a pretty word 22:54:30 AnMaster: XDD is obviously a horrified scream 22:54:33 AnMaster: oerjan presumably 22:54:44 oklowob, Do you have a reason for it? 22:54:48 yes 22:54:50 oerjan, no it isn't... 22:54:52 god 22:54:53 help 22:55:00 i like swatting people with fly swatters. 22:55:01 i see light 22:55:03 bright lightt 22:55:04 oh ok 22:55:08 I guess that is a good reason 22:55:19 ehird: that's what you get for preferring day over night 22:55:28 also, AnMaster, how do you get by with just a 5 line high irc window? 22:55:31 i feel slippinngg 22:55:41 (it cannot be more than that) 22:55:48 oerjan, who claimed I had such a small window? 22:55:52 Why would it be that small 22:56:01 AnMaster: it's obvious from your lack of context appreciation 22:56:07 i have a semitiny hunch he deduced it from something you did 22:56:07 oerjan, ?? 22:56:14 well there you go 22:56:33 oerjan, what line in specific do you mean? My IRC window is closer to 50 lines I'd say 22:56:39 and I'm too lazy to count 22:56:46 * oerjan hands oklowob his flyswatter to amuse himself with 22:56:50 agh 22:56:52 I stopped dying 22:56:59 to appreciate the lack of comprehension 22:57:00 of AnMaster 22:57:02 ehird: welcome back 22:57:04 why is life so torturous 22:57:04 what was heaven like 22:57:09 oh wait 22:57:10 ehird: yeah it usually stops eventually 22:57:13 were you an atheist? 22:57:19 was it hot? 22:57:26 oklowob: well it was kind of umm 22:57:36 oklowob: right okay so you know like 4 dimensions and 5 dimensions and stuff? 22:57:39 oklowob, I would suggest asking about hell rather than heaven when it comes to ehird :P 22:57:39 yes 22:57:45 imagine 6 dimensions, then chop off the first 3 22:57:51 AnMaster: i did, but i did a small bit leading to it 22:57:52 that's the basic geometry 22:58:07 you'd see it if you used a greater window than your 5 lines 22:58:17 oklowob: also, no time 22:58:21 oklowob, err yes you did a split second after I pasted that line 22:58:24 oklowob, I would suggest asking about hell rather than heaven when it comes to ehird :P 22:58:26 was it hot? 22:58:26 you have to jog to keep upw ith time 22:58:37 oklowob: ssh, he's on 56k 22:58:39 oklowob, probably showed up in opposite order for you 22:58:40 AnMaster: i know, i was just doing another bit. 22:59:09 AnMaster: well your reply was about a minute late 22:59:13 but i'm using a webirc 22:59:17 because this is not my computer 22:59:22 mine was die. 22:59:26 AnMaster: wow you are lagged 22:59:31 oklowob, I'm having lag issues atm though, so could be on my side 22:59:32 oh. 22:59:34 lag spikes 22:59:37 seems better now 22:59:44 turns out i beat AnMaster even with a webirc 22:59:51 probably because i know category theory and he doesn't 23:00:01 ... 23:00:06 Ircomorphisms? 23:00:30 * oerjan takes his swatter back from oklowob 23:00:32 oklowob, or because your ISP doesn't suck as much? 23:00:38 oerjan: wait you gave it? :D 23:00:43 i didn't even notice 23:00:45 oklowob, too late now 23:00:53 use it or lose it 23:00:55 noooooooooooo 23:00:58 noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 23:01:09 life is terrybul :< 23:01:12 *sigh* oh well, here -----### 23:01:19 yay 23:01:30 * oklowob swats oerjan -----### 23:01:32 oklowob: 23:01:34 swat me 23:01:38 so I die 23:01:39 how'd you like that :D 23:01:41 so I am free of AnMaster 23:01:41 *ouch* i mean yay 23:01:42 hm 23:02:03 oerjan: that was pretty awesome 23:02:07 aha! I just bought an IRC one line ASCII art weapon too 23:02:15 oh dear 23:02:26 * AnMaster hits ehird o---------------E 23:02:27 no you didn't 23:02:31 wait 23:02:31 oerjan hasn't enchanted it 23:02:33 not right 23:02:33 so it does nothing. 23:02:38 * AnMaster hits ehird o======E 23:02:40 that is better 23:02:41 and i don't think he'd enchant something just to hit me. 23:02:42 fire poker 23:02:57 may need some adjustments? 23:03:01 * oklowob doubleswats oerjan -----### ###----- 23:03:09 ehird: don't be silly, i didn't enchant ais523's butterfly net either 23:03:15 eek! 23:03:17 oerjan: yes, but it was just a net 23:03:18 * AnMaster experiments, holding it like a sword o=========E 23:03:21 nothing like a red hot poker 23:03:23 oerjan, does that look good? 23:03:46 * FireFly can has hookshot ~~~{ 23:03:47 so 23:03:52 anyone wanna play red hot poker 23:03:54 oerjan, yes or no? 23:04:08 it's a kind of strip poker except there's a lot of swatting involved 23:04:13 oklowob, no thanks, I don't want to lend it yet, it is still new and shiny 23:04:15 anyway that weapon of AnMaster looks like it needs a demonic curse, not an enchantment. 23:04:23 oerjan, err what? 23:04:46 okay now seriously ....whipped ...porridge 23:05:04 it's obviously a demon's fork 23:05:17 what are those called... 23:05:36 oerjan, it could be a demonic enhanced rustproof +3 red hot fire poker of Munchkins? 23:05:38 or something 23:05:39 Tridents 23:06:14 oerjan, how would a firepoker look then? 23:06:31 xlogo window 'hget http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/img/plan9bunnysmblack.jpg | page' 23:06:36 — unix/plan9 equivalent commands page 23:06:39 oh fire poker, i guess that works 23:06:47 oerjan, I said fire poker above 23:06:48 duh 23:06:52 {} <-- Power bracelet L2 23:06:58 FireFly: sorry i cannot swat you, oklowob is borrowing the swatter 23:07:06 :( 23:07:10 No massage today? 23:07:17 * AnMaster hits FireFly lightly with the poker o=========E 23:07:23 OUCH 23:07:25 But 23:07:31 FireFly: it isn't active 23:07:32 I'm already burning 23:07:32 for oerjan 23:07:36 it hasn't been cursed/chanted 23:07:37 So meh 23:07:40 FireFly, it is fire proof 23:07:57 god ripping off oerjan's swatter is lame. 23:08:04 * FireFly hookshots AnMaster ~~~~~~~~~~{ 23:08:12 FireFly, also how would a fire poker ignite you? 23:08:17 don't you know what one is? 23:08:17 At least I can steal things 23:08:22 Yes I do 23:08:22 FireFly, what? 23:08:24 Xut 23:08:25 But* 23:08:33 If it'd be.. more devilish 23:08:40 also did you check the grappling rule book? 23:08:40 Then it'd perhaps burn 23:08:44 ;P 23:08:53 I havn't been to hell, so I dunno 23:08:55 Um 23:08:57 ... 23:09:09 Nope, I use my Zelda LA experience 23:09:27 FireFly, duh Dungeon and Dragons. 23:09:46 the web comic Darth and Droids mentioned this recently 23:09:46 Well, Hookshot is more zelda style 23:09:49 oerjan can explain 23:09:53 I think he reads it 23:09:56 * oerjan expected darths and droids, rather 23:10:01 argh! 23:10:07 oerjan, what? 23:10:14 someone swat me for reading context worse than AnMaster :D 23:10:33 * oklowob swats oerjan 23:10:37 thank you 23:10:38 *-----### 23:10:49 A pointer to a swatter 23:10:56 * oklowob hands oerjan the swatter 23:11:02 too big a responsibility :| 23:11:14 oerjan, you are aware of that a fire poker makes a much larger indent than a fly swatter, so my attack would be like the heavy artillery, while your fly swatter would be like a single person 23:11:29 are you* 23:12:03 Eg. swatting is more comfortable 23:12:04 * oerjan points out on AnMaster's head that he also has a saucepan. ===\___/ 23:12:22 * AnMaster deflects the attack using his o=========E 23:12:39 oh dear 23:12:43 now your saucepan got a hole right through the bottom 23:12:46 not just a dent 23:12:50 now you are in trouble 23:12:58 Stop godmoding :( 23:13:04 at this rate we're going to need disarmament negotiations soon 23:13:05 Yeah totally. 23:13:11 that's why you need to enchant i 23:13:11 t 23:13:14 because people godmode. 23:13:52 oerjan, well I'll help you mend it if you want, I know a blacksmith with a time limited discount thingy for mending saucepans 23:14:17 FireFly, what are you talking about? 23:14:24 [23:11:13] now your saucepan got a hole right through the bottom 23:14:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godmoding 23:14:30 FireFly, it had dents before 23:14:35 so this is rather logical 23:14:36 Did it? 23:14:50 FireFly, s/Did/Had/ and it would make sense 23:14:59 but yes 23:15:06 it got dents when he hit people 23:15:17 so it seems rather soft 23:15:20 i don't think "had it" is common grammar 23:15:35 ..I'd say my reply was grammatically correct? 23:15:41 oerjan, didn't it? 23:15:45 or isn't it? 23:15:47 wait 23:15:51 oerjan: doesn't it? 23:16:01 mh 23:16:07 maybe you are right about the grammar thing 23:16:10 well 23:16:29 Anyway, it'd still be godmoding saying "I do X and Y's Z broke" 23:17:16 FireFly, Ok we need five 20d then and a rule book 23:17:19 might be better 23:17:39 I've only played D&D games on computer :( 23:17:44 Not real games 23:17:59 FireFly, same, but I read a lot about it so I'm not totally clueless 23:18:25 Well, I do know what a 20-sided die is 23:18:47 Hrm, dice* 23:18:57 FireFly, but you were unaware of the complex rules I mentioned above 23:18:59 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 23:19:05 As in? 23:19:19 also did you check the grappling rule book? 23:19:28 FireFly, duh Dungeon and Dragons. 23:19:28 the web comic Darth and Droids mentioned this recently 23:19:30 that 23:19:35 oerjan can explain 23:19:41 * AnMaster waits for that to happemn 23:19:43 happen* 23:19:43 I didn't even know grappling hooks existed in the D&D universe 23:20:00 FireFly, don't read Darth and Droids? 23:20:04 Nope 23:20:05 or IWC? 23:20:08 Nope 23:20:17 * oerjan tosses his saucepan and orders a new one from Acme Corporation. 23:20:22 I was using a Zelda Hookshot; Ninty rules applies to it :D 23:20:30 oerjan, didn't you see my offer above...? 23:20:58 FireFly, http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0232.html http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0233.html 23:21:31 FireFly, while I like Zelda OOT I don't think it applies on IRC 23:21:56 Well, how does D&D relate to IRC swatting? 23:22:08 FireFly, no more than Zelda rules do 23:22:11 oerjan, write a swatting rulebook, FAST! 23:22:21 Fair enough 23:22:43 oerjan, would be a good idea. After proper consideration of the essies committee for 2006 I think :P 23:22:46 * oerjan hits AnMaster with his new Acme saucepan O==|__| 23:23:02 oerjan, that feels like rubber? 23:23:07 what sort of joke is this 23:23:13 i think it's cartoon material 23:23:22 oerjan, oh. 23:23:55 oerjan, still feels like rubber. It explains why the roadrunner always got away 23:24:08 oerjan, not a good choice I'd say 23:24:24 hm actually i think it's a plastic explosive 23:24:30 oerjan, well since you threw your old away.... 23:24:41 * oerjan hits AnMaster again to test O==|__| *BOOM* 23:24:53 [¯¯¯]~ 23:24:53 *CUT* 23:24:54 ah 23:24:56 Dynamite 23:25:13 Maybe a bit too fat 23:25:31 -!- k has joined. 23:25:42 * AnMaster picks up the old saucepan oerjan threw away ===\/ \/. 23:25:59 -!- k has changed nick to Guest21687. 23:26:10 * AnMaster takes oerjans saucepan to the local blacksmith and gets it mended ===\___/ 23:26:13 Looks like new 23:26:22 now if you want it back I suggest being nice! 23:26:23 ;P 23:26:34 * AnMaster keeps it away where oerjan can't steal it 23:26:35 marvelous handcraft 23:26:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:27:12 Marvelous quitcraft 23:27:19 uhu 23:27:28 * FireFly is bored 23:27:53 oerjan, btw I listened to the entire Peer Gynt today, SR P2 sent it in two parts during yesterday and the day before that 23:28:14 well then you know more of it than me 23:28:16 * AnMaster used mplayer -dumpstream on it 23:28:39 oerjan, hah, I thought you would know a lot since you were from Norway 23:28:43 -!- Guest21687 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:29:07 hah, i bet you think i'm good at skiing, too 23:29:21 BUT YOU WOULD BE WRONG 23:29:39 I bet you're good at coding 23:29:44 At least better than.. me? 23:29:45 BUT YOU WOULD BE WRONG 23:29:57 HOW DO YOU KNOW? 23:30:16 oerjan, gÃ¥ pÃ¥ tur? 23:30:22 or whatever it is you call it 23:30:35 skitur, at least 23:31:09 oerjan, Well for a Swede "gÃ¥ pÃ¥ tur" sounds like archetypical Norwegian 23:31:12 :/ 23:31:17 maybe 23:31:39 oerjan, med stickad tröja. 23:31:41 I know what "tuller" is in norwegian 23:31:53 stickad? 23:31:56 FireFly, something you find at airports? 23:31:58 i'm the best skier here 23:32:02 Vjet 23:32:06 Njet* 23:32:09 FireFly, ? 23:32:15 Not "tull" 23:32:23 oerjan, err... like you make clothes from wool 23:32:25 not woven 23:32:32 Knitting 23:32:33 you use two long wooden pins 23:32:35 ah yes 23:32:48 i'd probably beat even oerjan 23:32:51 Or, stickad = knitted 23:32:56 oh right. i also avoid knitted woolen sweaters like the plague :D 23:33:04 I'm quite good at skiing 23:33:25 FireFly, as long as it isn't going up or down 23:33:27 well let's not compete 23:33:30 "even oerjan"? 23:33:35 I prefer more horizontal skiing 23:33:38 Meh 23:33:44 oerjan: yeah, even you 23:33:47 i'm just that good 23:33:49 FireFly, lÃ¥ngfärdsÃ¥kning 23:33:50 I prefer downhill over cross-ocuntry 23:33:54 i thought i made it clear i don't ski unless my life depends on it 23:33:57 country* 23:34:01 FireFly, cross country definitely 23:34:15 Not if I'm the one choosing 23:34:25 oerjan, what's wrong with skiing 23:34:28 what do you call it in English if things start going round when you are high up 23:34:30 oerjan: well yes but you're norwegian, your no skiing is more than our lotsa skiing. 23:34:35 yrsel, höjdrädd 23:34:40 oklowob: ah well then 23:34:53 FireFly, ^ 23:34:54 For the record, BeholdMyGlory has an oerjanish alignment towards skiing 23:34:57 FireFly: i was talking cross-country 23:35:03 Ah 23:35:17 AnMaster; [23:32:21] I prefer downhill 23:35:18 ? 23:35:26 FireFly, " what do you call it in English if things start going round when you are high up" 23:35:27 that one 23:35:34 AnMaster: acrophobia 23:35:38 FireFly, that is why I prefer cross country 23:35:40 Ah 23:35:41 Eh 23:35:44 oerjan, that sounds wrong 23:35:56 I'm not sure 23:36:03 And I'm too lazy to wiki 23:36:10 well fear of heights 23:36:41 oerjan, ""Vertigo" is often used, incorrectly, to describe the fear of heights, but it is more accurately described as a spinning sensation, which may be caused by looking down from a high place, as well as by some other stimuli. Vertigo is qualified as height vertigo when referring to dizziness triggered by heights." <-- hm 23:36:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrophobia 23:37:01 oerjan, yeah found it. Read context.... 23:37:01 AnMaster: how delightfully irrelevant 23:37:10 i thought of vertigo too 23:37:10 anyway "height vertigo" would be what I suffer 23:37:12 The english language has a tendency to separate words :| 23:37:21 AnMaster: ah 23:37:26 okokokokokoko 23:37:31 oklowob, so highly relevant 23:37:32 -!- kar8nga has quit (Success). 23:37:34 ototototo 23:37:42 owowowowow 23:37:42 and I was quoting from what oerjan posted a few seconds later 23:37:43 AnMaster: it was delightfully relevant 23:37:47 No, I'm all right 23:37:56 fffffffffffffffffff 23:38:29 * oerjan is plenty acrophobic too 23:38:30 AnMaster: i have no idea, i'm asleep 23:38:32 FireFly, a few degrees downwards is ok for me, just not too steep 23:38:54 the problem with downhill skiing is it's kinda trivial 23:39:17 sure you can get challenges, but they are more about risks than they are about skills 23:39:25 oklowob, Not if you suffer from height vertigo... Then it is highly non-trivial I can tell you 23:39:54 i'm just saying there's not so much progress to do, you learn it, then you know it. 23:40:04 ok that may be true 23:40:10 sure you can optimize, but... it's still the same thing 23:40:39 then again i probably think that about most sports 23:40:43 I like it when it's quite steep 23:40:57 FireFly: well yes it feels nice 23:41:01 also I know technically how you do it, I can manage short and not to steep hills fine. and I know how you put your foots. never let the tips drift apart too much for example. 23:41:18 rather keep them a bit closer than the back ends 23:41:33 and avoid getting too much speed. VERY important. 23:41:39 Meh 23:41:56 FireFly, you like going fast? 23:42:00 meh 23:42:06 Quite, yeah 23:42:12 falling isn't exactly that dangerous on a slope 23:42:31 oklowob, well depend on which way you fall 23:42:42 well assuming at least a somewhat sensible speed 23:42:47 oklowob, that too 23:42:52 also you can hurt yourself 23:42:59 just probably not fatally 23:43:17 It's not like I've tried ski-jumping, that just looks crazy 23:43:23 FireFly, oh yes it does 23:43:23 well dunno i'm not an expert 23:43:38 oklowob, I mean, minor bruises and such 23:44:15 But they survive well, since they land on such a steep slope, flatting out in a huge ... slope 23:44:29 i've tried ski-jumping from kiddie ramps 23:44:39 (when i was kiddie) 23:44:41 I would never dare 23:44:43 It's not like it's steep, and then suddenly totally flat 23:44:45 Well 23:45:16 FireFly, I still think you could hurt yourself though 23:45:22 I've jumped on some 2dm-or-so bumps 23:45:27 But nothing bigger 23:45:41 FireFly, 2dm? 23:45:44 AnMaster, yeah, it looks crazy to me too 23:45:49 decimeter? 23:45:51 Yeah 23:45:54 mhm 23:46:01 Huge, I know :D 23:46:12 FireFly, I would not do it still 23:46:14 Okay, maybe a couple of huger bumps 23:46:21 half a meter or so 23:46:25 I'm not really sure 23:46:30 definitely wouldn't do that 23:46:43 I did try this sports weekend, but failed 23:46:56 Cold snow is cold 23:47:06 eh? 23:47:19 so does anyone do ...ice pool swimming here? 23:47:21 also the weather have been crazy recently 23:47:28 I mean snowing today 23:47:28 oklowob, nope 23:47:31 AnMaster, indeed! 23:47:34 Yeah 23:47:40 my father keeps trying to get me back in the circle 23:47:42 oklowob, that is even crazier than ski jumping... 23:47:48 It's totally white outside now :\ 23:47:48 used to do that when i was little 23:47:58 Well 23:47:59 FireFly, yes 23:48:16 yellow... sodium based street lights 23:48:24 It'd be funny to try ice pool swimming some day, at my grandparents place 23:48:25 otherwise it would be white yes 23:48:46 Close to a shallow sea, and they have a sauna :D 23:49:06 I never likes saunas 23:49:30 Close = 50-or-so metres 23:49:31 too hot IMO (yeah, I know that is the point of them, I just don't like it) 23:49:39 I like it 23:49:42 heh i'm such a stereotypical finn, saunas are great 23:49:55 oklowob, do you roll in the snow outside too? 23:50:12 if yes you are definitely a stereotypical finn 23:50:23 Just the same way as I love having the sun gazing at my skin a hot summer day while drinking something cold 23:50:23 well sure if environment allows dat 23:50:26 ... 23:50:27 Lie ice tea 23:50:29 oklowob, crazy 23:50:30 Like* 23:50:34 AnMaster: not really 23:50:52 oklowob, I guess I'm just... lagom ;) 23:51:05 I never liked extreme cold or extreme heat 23:51:10 well how about this, i occasionally go out without shoes in winter 23:51:18 oklowob, crazy 23:51:26 Outside, with bare feet? 23:51:35 also in the summer i occasionally take week-long streaks of not using any kinda protection for my feet 23:51:39 oklowob, I tend to use some shoes all the year, sandals in the summer 23:51:49 Well 23:51:49 oklowob, how does that work on asphalt? 23:51:56 That's nice 23:52:04 I like the burning feeling :D 23:52:09 FireFly, I don't 23:52:13 AnMaster: there are worse things to walk on 23:52:30 oklowob, grus yes.. Don't know English word 23:52:34 i have no quarrel against running on small stones without shoes 23:52:38 smallish stones? 23:52:40 At our school we've got several houses, so we have to move between them 23:52:40 yes 23:52:47 much coarser than sand 23:52:49 that's what i was going for too 23:52:57 And I seem to be the only one always walking in t-shirt 23:53:01 I mean 23:53:08 pebbles? 23:53:09 i used to use a t-shirt all year long 23:53:11 is that the right word? 23:53:13 AnMaster: yeah 23:53:23 I don't mind if it's snowing, I like having bare arms 23:53:31 then i got old, now i also use a jacket :< 23:53:33 ugh 23:53:42 FireFly: you live in sweden 23:53:44 crazy bugger. 23:53:50 Why? 23:53:52 although the zipper is broken so it's always open 23:54:22 FireFly, I'm indoors, temperature ~18 C ... fleecetröja 23:54:24 It's not like it's that cold 23:54:26 need I say more? 23:54:41 I'm indoors, unknown temperature 23:54:46 AnMaster: gravel 23:54:47 I feel hot, t-shirt 23:54:55 oerjan, ah yes that would fit better 23:54:56 i'm indoors, temperature about 20, totally naked 23:55:02 ... 23:55:08 as always 23:55:33 I'm usually going to my bed fetching the pyamas about this time at evenings 23:55:34 * oklowob yawns 23:55:36 -!- neldoret1 has quit (Client Quit). 23:55:36 also jeans and wollen "raggsockor", oh and "fÃ¥rskinnstofflor" 23:55:42 -!- neldoreth has joined. 23:55:44 no idea at all what they are in English 23:55:51 It's more.. chilling than jeans 23:55:57 i'm indoors, temperature about 23, wearing a sweater and _still_ feel cold 23:56:09 :D 23:56:21 The stereotypical non-norwegian? 23:56:22 oerjan: probably from all the skiing 23:56:35 oerjan, yes I still feel cold, that is why I also ended up with my "froteemorgonrock" on the top of it all 23:56:39 have you eaten your daily cod yet? 23:56:45 and no clue about what that is in English 23:57:02 Morning gown 23:57:10 FireFly, what about frotee? 23:57:16 I dunno 23:57:16 the material you know 23:57:19 very warm 23:57:28 You learn lots of things by playing the PC H2G2 game :D 23:57:31 maybe it is frotée or something 23:57:34 At least some things 23:57:34 FireFly, haha 23:57:44 Å• 23:57:44 FireFly, "raggsockor" and "fÃ¥rskinnstofflor" then? 23:57:46 what about themn 23:57:46 Mostly unneccecary things, though 23:57:47 them* 23:57:52 I don't know 23:57:56 Or, well 23:58:02 ...woolen socks? 23:58:09 yes that would describe them 23:58:10 and the second is... 23:58:10 umm 23:58:16 foreskin shoes 23:58:19 no 23:58:21 sheep skin 23:58:23 Sheep skin shoes :D 23:58:26 for indoor use 23:58:33 tofflor is not for outdoor use 23:58:36 no i think it's foreskin 23:58:37 i have raggsokker but not tøfler :D 23:58:40 oklowob, wrong 23:58:51 sokker? 23:58:52 oerjan, hehe töffler? 23:58:53 Hm 23:58:57 sukker 23:58:58 sokker 23:59:01 socker! 23:59:04 Different things 23:59:08 FireFly, yes 23:59:16 what does the first one mean? 23:59:25 anyway sleepies, probably, now 23:59:25 Socker 23:59:30 IIRC 23:59:37 still I much prefer the difference between anden and anden as well as tomten and tomten in Swedish 23:59:44 that is a difference that really rocks :) 23:59:46 e.g. sugar