←2009-03-28 2009-03-29 2009-03-30→ ↑2009 ↑all
00:00:00 <SimonRC> OTOH, you can't spend several minutes screaming in the time it takes your car to hit something
00:00:10 <ehird> lament: wut? how on earth?
00:00:15 <ehird> that makes no sense
00:00:21 <SimonRC> OTOOH, planes usually crash at times they're supposed to be close to the ground anyway
00:00:24 <ehird> SimonRC: I'd just pick the least painful
00:00:26 <lament> your loss of $1 is entirely risk-free
00:00:37 <oerjan> Sgeo: i see you found the glass link i would have suggested
00:00:43 <ehird> lament: "If offered either €50 or a 50% chance of €100, a risk averse person will take the €50, a risk seeking person will take the 50% chance of €100, and a risk neutral person would have no preference between the two options."
00:01:38 <SimonRC> (assuming that $50 has exactly half the utility of $100?)
00:02:11 <ais523> SimonRC: actually, risk-averseness is often taken to affect the utility function
00:02:22 <ais523> if $100 has more than twice the utility of $50, you're risk-loving
00:02:26 <ais523> if it has less than twice, you're risk-averse
00:02:37 <ais523> unfortunately, the theory breaks down in that most people don't have a consistent utility function
00:03:15 <lament> unfortunately, the theory breaks down in that most people aren't spherical
00:03:21 <Sgeo> utility $1 million > utility (1/2) $2 million, for me anyway
00:03:24 <Sgeo> haha lament
00:03:25 <ais523> lament: why does that matter?
00:03:41 <ais523> Sgeo: you're risk-averse with large amounts of money, nearly everyone is
00:03:48 <lament> if people were spherical, there would be a very high risk of them just rolling away
00:03:56 <ehird> ais523: I think that's mainly because,
00:04:01 <ehird> we don't really understand amounts that large
00:04:07 <SimonRC> ok: step 1, lt us assume a spherical American
00:04:13 <Sgeo> ais523, you haven't heard the joke about horses?
00:04:13 <ehird> if we had $1mil for multiple years and managed the finances
00:04:17 <ehird> I'm sure that'd change
00:04:19 <ehird> SimonRC: :DD
00:04:28 <ais523> ehird: businesses tend to be a lot more risk-neutral than individuals
00:04:31 <ais523> possibly for that reason
00:04:34 <SimonRC> Sgeo: do tell
00:04:54 <lament> businesses tend to be a lot more risk-neutral than individuals, because unlike individuals, businesses don't die of old age in a few decades
00:05:02 <Sgeo> All I remember is some mathematician trying to predict horse races. "First, let us assume spherical horses:
00:05:03 <Sgeo> "
00:05:04 -!- neldoret1 has quit (Client Quit).
00:05:04 <lament> businesses only die if they perform badly
00:05:14 <lament> people die anyway, and they only have one life to take care of
00:05:21 * oerjan swats lament to increase the risk of such jokes -----###
00:05:25 <lament> so natural selection demands that they be risk-averse
00:05:48 * SimonRC wanders just how quickly Microsoft would be locked up if it were a human
00:05:50 <ehird> lament: not everyone thinks they will die
00:05:53 <ehird> [see religion]
00:06:00 <ais523> SimonRC: prison, or mental institution?
00:06:01 <ehird> I guess that changes their riskness
00:06:06 <SimonRC> ais523: both
00:06:14 <lament> ehird: the value of money is 0 after you die, though
00:06:21 <lament> even if you go to heaven or get reincarnated
00:06:22 <SimonRC> but even the devout generally avoid death
00:06:29 <ehird> lament: maybe your money goes to heaven with you
00:06:33 <lament> hah
00:06:36 <lament> what's that, scientology?
00:06:40 <ehird> erm
00:06:51 <ehird> :D
00:07:02 <ehird> ais523: is your level any good?
00:07:03 <SimonRC> lament: ah, but for an evolved mind under a legal system with inheritance law...
00:07:04 <ehird> tell me before I play it
00:07:05 -!- neldoreth has joined.
00:07:10 <ehird> SimonRC: *g*
00:07:16 <ais523> ehird: it's mostly a speed level, with a bit of intelligence
00:07:24 <ais523> it fits onto one screen and there's no hidden information
00:07:25 <SimonRC> level of what?
00:07:28 <ais523> SimonRC: Enigma
00:07:35 <SimonRC> describe
00:07:45 <ais523> and I can do it about 1 time in 10, in under 40 seconds
00:07:49 <lament> SimonRC: sure, that's valid
00:07:50 <ais523> SimonRC: it's a puzzle game
00:07:54 <ais523> you control a marble
00:07:57 -!- neldoreth has quit (Client Quit).
00:08:00 <ais523> which you can exert force on using your mouse
00:08:08 <ais523> the simplest levels you just have to move around a maze or whatever
00:08:08 <lament> SimonRC: although what evolved mind would count on all their children to remain evolved and rational?
00:08:15 <ais523> but normally there are lots of other things in the level to make it harder
00:08:34 <ais523> like boxes to push into water, or other moving things trying to run you down, or puzzles to solve
00:08:36 <ais523> especially puzzles
00:08:42 <ehird> is it uncommon not to be able to comprehend caring about things that happen after you stop having experiences? :|
00:09:04 <ais523> the level of mine I told #esoteric about today contains a flag, an extra life, and six moving arrow things
00:09:07 <SimonRC> ais523: a bit chip's challengy then?
00:09:11 <ais523> together with other things to make them move in a particular pattern
00:09:16 <lament> ehird: don't think so
00:09:18 <ais523> SimonRC: I don't know chip's challenge
00:09:24 <SimonRC> ah, a aclassic
00:09:27 <ehird> lament: good, then I'm normal :P
00:09:27 <ais523> but Enigma's nice and general, someone even programmed tetris in it
00:09:40 <Sgeo> ais523, you made an Enigma level?
00:09:43 <ais523> with the marble moving onto pressure plates to control the tetris thing
00:09:44 <ehird> Sgeo: 3.
00:09:44 <SimonRC> oh, wait, I think I have heard of this one before
00:09:47 <ais523> Sgeo: I've made several
00:09:50 -!- swistakm has quit (Connection timed out).
00:09:51 <Sgeo> COOL!
00:09:52 <ais523> 3 finished, 3 work-in-progress
00:09:55 <ais523> and about 2 at the idea stage
00:10:03 <ais523> which I haven't started coding yet
00:10:06 <Sgeo> Also, if I get world record speed, how do I indicate that to the world?
00:10:07 <SimonRC> I suck at puzzles though. I seem too details-oriented.
00:10:11 <ais523> Sgeo: not sure
00:10:20 <ehird> Sgeo: show enigma devs the recording
00:10:22 <Sgeo> (mind you, it was the April 1st level, which I did sometime in March)
00:10:27 <ehird> Would be the standard practice I assume
00:10:30 <oklowob> SimonRC: details-oriented is how you solve puzzles
00:10:32 -!- neldoreth has joined.
00:10:33 <ais523> Sgeo: is that even possible? I thought it was only possible on april 1
00:10:35 <Sgeo> ehird, you mean it doesn't update some server?
00:10:40 <ehird> Sgeo: heck no
00:10:43 <Sgeo> ais523, I changed the system clock
00:10:44 <ehird> way more lofi :^)
00:10:45 <ais523> Sgeo: I got the impression there was a server involved
00:10:46 <SimonRC> plus this world has denied me practice at tolerating being completely confounded by some task I want to do
00:10:54 <ehird> ais523: but it knows the names
00:10:55 <ais523> there's a ratings update option in the options
00:10:58 <ais523> but I'm not sure what it does
00:11:03 <ais523> ehird: ah, ok
00:11:06 <ais523> maybe you'd have to set it up first
00:11:08 <ehird> ais523: loads it from their server, I guess
00:11:13 <ehird> but you have to submit new records yourself
00:11:14 <ehird> I think
00:11:15 <ais523> or maybe you should just read the source to find out what happens
00:11:43 <ehird> ais523: oh jeez this looks hard
00:11:44 <ais523> ehird: anyway, first see how long it takes you to deduce what to do, then how long it takes you to do it
00:11:48 <ais523> the second took me longer
00:11:56 <SimonRC> (my reaction to the goddamned Basil puzzle was enough the convince me that fictional depictions of people going mad with obsession are at least plausible)
00:12:03 <ehird> ais523: i got hit and smashed but it isn't restarting
00:12:11 <ais523> why not?
00:12:15 <ais523> did you get trapped under the arrow block?
00:12:18 <ehird> Yes.
00:12:22 <ehird> That's what i mean by smashed
00:12:29 <ais523> I mean, you restart where you started
00:12:32 <ais523> if there's an arrow block there
00:12:35 <ais523> you respawn underneath it
00:12:36 <oklowob> SimonRC: usually when i can't get a puzzle i blame it's challenge not being purely mathematical.
00:12:36 <ehird> nope
00:12:37 <ais523> and so can't move
00:12:39 <ehird> ah
00:12:41 <ehird> well that's stupid
00:12:42 <Sgeo> Are ais523's levels included with Enigma, or do they need to be downloadd?
00:12:47 <ehird> Sgeo: downloaded
00:12:47 <ais523> Sgeo: downloaded, from me
00:13:11 <oklowob> of course i haven't solved rubik's cube yet, and it's just permutations, so that doesn't always work.
00:13:16 <ais523> ehird: another fun fact: although that level's entirely possible without f3, I find f3 makes it easier
00:13:26 <ehird> f3?
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00:13:31 <oklowob> (i'm relatively sure i could solve it now tho)
00:13:32 <ais523> kill current ball
00:13:39 <oklowob> (if only i had one)
00:13:41 <ais523> like shift-f3 but less dramatic
00:13:42 <ehird> I can't figure out how to not get crushed.
00:13:44 <SimonRC> oklowob: the usual rubik's solutions use lots of memorisation, AIUI
00:13:47 <ais523> ehird: see the flag?
00:13:52 <ais523> do you know what flags do?
00:13:56 <ais523> if not, you basically have no chance
00:14:02 <ais523> it's kind-of fundamental
00:14:03 <ehird> No idea whatsoeve
00:14:03 <ehird> r
00:14:11 <ais523> ehird: the flag marks the respawn point
00:14:15 <ais523> if you've picked up a flag at least once
00:14:16 <ehird> aha
00:14:17 <ais523> then dropped it
00:14:20 <ais523> you respawn at the flag
00:14:30 <Sgeo> oklowob, there are online Rubik's cubes
00:14:34 <ais523> I may as well tell you that so you have a chance, that's fundamental Enigma though and nothing to do with my programming
00:14:38 <ehird> ais523: ok, that's really hard
00:14:57 <ais523> ehird: in what way?
00:15:02 <ais523> I find the speed aspect's the hardest bit
00:15:07 <ehird> yes, exactly
00:15:10 <Sgeo> oklowob, if you don't mind Java, http://www.javaonthebrain.com/java/rubik/
00:15:24 <ais523> and actually, I normally have at least 1 second of buffer in which to do what I want
00:15:32 <ais523> just I keep bouncing and dropping the flag in the wrong place
00:15:39 <ehird> ais523: but, I only have one ball
00:15:41 <ais523> maybe I should use a friendlier floor to make it a bit easy
00:15:43 <ehird> how do I keep redoing it?
00:15:50 <ais523> ehird: you start with 2 in inventory, and there's a third on the level
00:16:04 <ehird> but I'd need to respawn like 5 times...
00:16:11 <ais523> ah, no you don't
00:16:20 <ais523> there are six bolders, but you can do it in three respawns
00:16:22 <oklowob> Sgeo: i don't really feel like a puzzle atm
00:16:23 <ais523> that's the intelligence bit
00:16:25 <ehird> wat
00:16:48 <oklowob> and i'm busy reading our uni's course listing.
00:16:57 <oklowob> and, you know, dreaming
00:17:04 <ehird> http://www.javaonthebrain.com/index.html so 1996
00:17:09 -!- M0ny has quit ("Quit").
00:17:16 <ehird> "but which will only perform well on computers with lightning-fast Internet connections, tons of memory, 600-MHz processors, "
00:17:33 <ais523> I just did it again, although 1s off my personal best
00:17:39 <ais523> so it must be possible
00:18:20 <ehird> I'm not going to bother
00:18:26 <ehird> I'm just not good at that sort of stuff
00:18:40 <ais523> ehird: what sort of enigma level are you good at?
00:18:47 <ais523> I don't think you've done any of mine yet
00:18:53 <ehird> Mu.
00:18:56 <ais523> not the intelligence, not the memory, not the speed
00:19:06 <ais523> should I make a dex level, or would you fail that too?
00:19:08 <ehird> But at least the non-speed ones don't break me. :D
00:19:48 <ais523> I thought the intelligence aspect of that was more interesting than the speed one
00:19:49 * Sgeo starts playing with the OOTS/Erfworld viewer
00:20:00 <ehird> ais523: if you make a hyper-slow version I'll give it a go :P
00:20:04 <ais523> if you like, work out, in the abstract, how that level's possible with only the three respawns you're given
00:20:17 <ais523> and I'm not sure how to slow those things down
00:20:28 <ais523> maybe by making the level bigger, but then you couldn't see the whole thing at once
00:20:40 <ais523> (incidentally, with an extra extra life, the level would become almost trivial)
00:21:22 <ehird> ais523: I keep dropping the flag then walking over it is the problem
00:21:32 <ais523> ehird: you can hold the mouse button to not pick up an item
00:21:36 <ehird> ah
00:21:37 <ais523> another Enigma trick that's nice to know
00:21:58 <ais523> although starting to hold it drops an item, so you need to be careful with when you start to hold
00:22:25 <ais523> this level probably scores a 4 for knowledge rather than the usual 3
00:22:26 <ehird> why can't you just click to drop then continue hold
00:22:28 <ehird> ing
00:22:30 <ais523> you can
00:22:32 <ais523> that's what I normally do
00:22:36 <ehird> ah
00:23:18 <ehird> "Last modified Februray 28, 2009. A Soko-Ban clone named ChocoBan. Also available for free for the iPhone and iPod Touch (from the Apple iTunes Store). "
00:23:25 <ehird> Wow that javaonthebrain.com site is still updated XD
00:25:01 <SimonRC> Sgeo: a GITP viewer?
00:25:09 <SimonRC> to compensate for slow site?
00:25:13 <Sgeo> tinyurl.com/ootsview
00:25:31 <Sgeo> ehird, wait what? I didn't notice that
00:25:44 <ehird> Sgeo: that jar doesn't open on os x.
00:26:06 <ehird> 28/03/2009 23:24:46 [0x0-0xb19b19].com.apple.JarLauncher[22878] java.lang.UnsupportedClassVersionError: Bad version number in .class file
00:26:07 <ehird> ah
00:26:09 <Sgeo> ehird, I know someone got it to work on OS X. The forum's down though
00:26:12 <ehird> what java version is it for
00:26:20 <Sgeo> No clue.
00:34:06 <Ilari> Also, enigma tip: if one doesn't have precise enough mousework for some levels and one is desperate enough to cheat, enable mousekeys. Those can be used for doing perfect main directions and diagonals.
00:38:46 <Sgeo> Grr, why is the viewer stuck on 443?
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00:41:14 <ehird> Ilari: Hey, person who never talks.
00:41:54 <ehird> Ilari: It is kind of predictable that you didn't react to that.
00:42:29 <Ilari> 600MHz processors? Case of receding horizons?
00:42:56 <ehird> Ilari: Are you lagged by several minutes? :D
00:43:07 <Ilari> Nope...
00:43:29 <Ilari> Or depending on workload, can be considerably more than that. :->
00:43:53 <ehird> Ilari: wow that smiley is epic, you're finnish right? so that sentence is actually ": [and now I depart]" but it's also a smiley woww
00:44:02 <ehird> you just expanded the theory of finnish ircing 10x
00:44:08 <ehird> :\
00:44:14 <ehird> oklowob: you should innovate like that more
00:44:37 * SimonRC is familiar with Alfandra smilies too
00:44:38 <fizzie> ehird: Speaking of never talking, I got mooz to get back to IRC, though not as far back as to actually get on this channel.
00:45:01 <ehird> fizzie: just make a channel relevant to his interests and set it to redirect here.
00:45:06 <ehird> he'll know what hit him immediately
00:45:27 <Ilari> Bait'n'switch?
00:45:41 <ehird> More like bait'n'#esoteric. That's catchy that.
00:45:52 <SimonRC> e.g. };=8
00:45:59 <ehird> SimonRC: Let me try!
00:46:17 <ehird> I have a piece of reverse penis on the top of my head, which has a serrated mouth. I am crying from one eye.
00:46:21 <ehird> } mouth
00:46:24 <ehird> ; crying lips
00:46:24 <SimonRC> no
00:46:28 <ehird> =8 severed reverse penis
00:46:32 <ehird> SimonRC: yes
00:47:00 <SimonRC> horns, wink, snout, nostrils, tounge sticking out
00:47:13 <Asztal> I thought all smiley research was banned after =|;{> .
00:47:19 <SimonRC> (it is a dragon smiley)
00:47:24 <ehird> SimonRC: no no it's sad evilmouth penisman
00:47:25 <Ilari> 2 2 FlFEPF+LEf-F+EP-F+LE-fL+LENL-LE+lL-l++L-l-P+LENL-PE+lL-p++L-l+++++++P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-FP+LL-LEEsS+F-P+LEs
00:47:27 <ehird> i'm pretty sure
00:47:27 <SimonRC> Asztal: eh?
00:47:43 <SimonRC> ehird: the original author would disagree
00:47:49 <SimonRC> Ilari: ??
00:47:51 <ehird> Ilari: Fire people flee lentils in penile lipppppppppppppppppppppppppp less FPLEs?
00:48:02 <ehird> Looks like a geek code esque thing
00:49:49 <psygnisfive> guys i need ideas :|
00:49:59 <Ilari> Its some sort of program code. 2 2 Means 2 fields, 2 locals... + and - manipulates pointer, don't remember what the rest do...
00:50:20 <ehird> Ilari: you know la fizzie right
00:50:25 <psygnisfive> ilari, wtf is that, esocode?
00:50:50 <psygnisfive> anyway
00:50:52 <psygnisfive> i need ideas!
00:51:37 <Sgeo> Make PSOX perfect
00:52:15 <oerjan> wait - esocode existed, didn't it, or am i vaguely remembering something else...
00:52:42 <oerjan> hm google fail
00:53:10 <Sgeo> Grr, why is OOTS Viewer downloading so slowly?
00:55:58 <Ilari> Ah, E is pop 2, skip next (non +-) if not equal, f is pop and write field, F is push field, l is pop and write local, L is push local, p is pop and write parameter, P is push parameter, s is pop object and send rest of stack to it, S is push reference to self, N is create object.
00:59:07 <SimonRC> are there methods on objects?
00:59:35 * SimonRC considers functiony objects
00:59:41 <Ilari> SimonRC: Just the message handler method.
01:00:13 <ehird> SimonRC: functions -ar-- objects
01:00:14 <ehird> are
01:00:23 <SimonRC> in Java I mean
01:00:26 <ehird> oh
01:00:41 <oklowob> psygnisfive: how about a hat that's also a plate
01:00:47 <SimonRC> the sort that have lots of fields that act as ambient vairables inside a huge functiony calcualtion
01:00:53 <Ilari> Ergh... 2 2 doesn't mean 2 parameters, 2 locals, it means 2 parameters 2 fields.
01:01:04 <psygnisfive> oklowob: but can it be made in a soviet vintage kitsch style?
01:01:44 <oklowob> i'm not sure what kind of style that would be
01:01:50 <oklowob> but yes
01:01:55 <Ilari> And the only usable data type is reference.
01:02:04 <oklowob> it is the functionality that matters
01:05:11 <Ilari> Also, E ignores skipping effect of E.
01:07:16 <Ilari> Or was 2 2 2 fields, 2 locals...
01:07:43 * Slereah read "2 lolcats"
01:08:01 <Ilari> Probably, as that code uses P (Push parameter) after way too many +'s for just 2 parameters...
01:11:40 <ehird> SimonRC: What I wrote when you said functiony objects: http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=3030
01:12:24 <SimonRC> no, not what I meant
01:12:37 <ehird> Perhaps not, but it sparked an idea nontheless.
01:12:43 <ehird> What did you mean
01:13:03 <SimonRC> these are objects that exist merely so their fields can hold objects instead of said objects being passed through 10 levels of static methods
01:13:16 <ehird> i don't get it
01:13:25 <ehird> also, that sounds much more boring than my code :-)
01:13:35 <ehird> i love how gadts give you dependent typing of a sort
01:18:03 <Sgeo> gadts?
01:18:19 <ehird> Generalized abstract data types.
01:18:23 <Sgeo> Oh, for some reason, I thought you mean typing like typing on a computer
01:18:27 <ehird> Sgeo: See 'data CounterMessage r where' @ http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=3030#a3030
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02:10:53 * ehird does http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=a9xAKttWgP4&fmt=18 in J
02:10:59 <ehird> r =. (3 3 $ i. 9) e. 1 2 3 4 7
02:11:03 <ehird> _1 _2 |. 5 7 {. r
02:11:40 <ehird> R;R;R
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02:17:08 <calamari> Unknown host chat.freenode.net
02:17:09 <calamari> weird
02:18:04 <FireFly> Hmh
02:18:10 <FireFly> It's getting late
02:18:22 <calamari> Unknown host irc.freenode.net
02:18:25 <calamari> Unknown host freenode.net
02:18:44 <calamari> anyone else having this problem?
02:19:00 <Asztal> not I
02:20:37 <oerjan> host gives plenty of hits
02:20:50 <calamari> oerjan: sorry?
02:20:53 <oerjan> *A's
02:21:03 <oerjan> the unix host command
02:22:20 <oerjan> of course they're probably cached from before
02:23:14 <Asztal> http://private.dnsstuff.com/tools/traversal.ch?domain=irc.freenode.net&type=A
02:24:08 <calamari> do I need to use an ip address for AndroidIRC?
02:25:43 <ehird> shouldn't have to
02:25:45 <calamari> apt-getting host in debian.. this should be interesting :)
02:26:03 <calamari> sorry.. somehow I got into the wrong channel
02:26:12 <ehird> ?
02:26:21 <calamari> I tohught I was in #android
02:26:29 <ehird> :-D
02:27:10 <Asztal> sometimes I get weird rendering bugs in irssi and people from other channels show up in the one I'm in.
02:28:32 <ehird> http://s5.tinypic.com/6zaazr.jpg <-- Holy windows 3.11 batman!
02:42:57 <psygnisfive> ehird
02:42:59 <psygnisfive> what is it
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02:56:46 <Sgeo> ehird, I got Win3.1 working in a VM
02:57:07 <FireFly> Nicht
02:57:10 <FireFly> Eh
02:57:11 <FireFly> g*
02:57:15 <FireFly> Night
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04:01:20 <GreaseMonkey> ehird: that was windows 95
04:01:38 <GreaseMonkey> wow... i really fail at watching my timestamps
04:02:26 <oerjan> don't worry about that. i just lost an entire hour...
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12:33:36 * AnMaster just invented some sort of batch reloading of cmake project variables
12:34:02 <AnMaster> since I changed something that affected names of the cached variables in the build system of cfunge
12:47:42 <oklowob> lol was gonna go to teh shoppe, stopped to play for a sec, ended up falling in a piano trance for like an hour
12:48:59 <oklowob> well now shoppe time
12:49:02 <oklowob> ->
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13:36:23 <AnMaster> wow
13:36:26 <AnMaster> Warning: fopen(http://xml2.lkml.org/thread.php?origin=1068846) [function.fopen]: failed to open stream: HTTP request failed! in /srv/lkml.org/scripts/getmail.php on line 109
13:36:26 <AnMaster>
13:36:26 <AnMaster> Warning: fgets(): supplied argument is not a valid stream resource in /srv/lkml.org/scripts/getmail.php on line 110
13:36:31 <AnMaster> on lkml.org
13:36:35 <AnMaster> so it runs php heh
13:37:28 <lifthrasiir> fopen to internal server?
13:38:29 <AnMaster> think so
13:38:37 <AnMaster> *shudder*
13:39:18 <lifthrasiir> xml2.lkml.org gives forbidden, maybe it requires more header or simply has error
13:39:40 <AnMaster> horrible that it uses php at all IMO
13:40:00 <lifthrasiir> agreed
13:41:50 <fizzie> I don't see what makes that especially horrible.
13:54:00 <andreou> ASP would be horrible
13:54:18 <andreou> PHP is one of the logical ways to go
13:54:47 <andreou> though for some reason i'd expect some inbred bunch of perl scripts
13:54:59 <andreou> sorry, s/inbred/in-house/
13:55:33 <fizzie> Yes, I guess that would be thematically more appropriate.
13:57:50 <andreou> that kernel-space tiny httpd that was the thing of the day for some 2.4.x or 2.5.x kernels, has it survived?
14:05:12 <fizzie> I don't think it has.
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14:05:28 <fizzie> http://www.fenrus.demon.nl/ looks pretty obsoleted.
14:06:47 <fizzie> Don't see any remains of it in this 2.6.28-age kernel source tree either.
14:09:50 <andreou> ah not even 2.5.x, it was 2.3.x
14:09:54 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TUX_web_server seems to be sort-of-a successor, but even there the download dir doesn't have patches past 2.6.18.
14:11:24 <andreou> it seems tohave died a year or two ago
14:11:46 <andreou> nice idea though, a buffer overflow could drop you right into kernel space
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15:46:12 <AnMaster> hi ais523_
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15:47:14 <ais523> hi AnMaster
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15:51:31 <AnMaster> hm
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15:57:10 <AnMaster> ais523, hm any idea what the lines like ".quad L(Got0), L(P1Q0), L(P2Q0), L(P3Q0)" in http://sources.redhat.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/libc/sysdeps/x86_64/memset.S?rev= are good for?
15:57:46 <ais523> no, i've never seen that before
15:58:16 <AnMaster> ais523, they are put in .rodata, some sort of lookup table I think, but I can't figure out for what memset would need that
15:59:34 <ais523> jump table, maybe?
15:59:38 <ais523> they could be using duff's device
15:59:45 <AnMaster> hm maybe
16:07:46 <AnMaster> It's a pitty the OS doesn't expose some interface to allow marking some pages as write combining in user space apps
16:07:48 <fizzie> A jump table is what it feels like, and there's the PIC/non-PIC versions of it too. At least for the SSE code SSEnQm looks like it the correct location to jump to in order to set m*16+n bytes before RDI, assuming xmm0 and rdx are filled with the byte to use.
16:08:01 <fizzie> s/like it/like/
16:08:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm ok
16:08:23 <fizzie> That's a lot of code for a memset, though.
16:09:10 <AnMaster> heh
16:14:51 <lifthrasiir> i'm a bit tired of checking mycology result by hand, so made this thing: http://f.imagehost.org/view/0891/97519323
16:15:09 <lifthrasiir> looks good? :p
16:15:15 * ais523 looks
16:15:44 <ais523> ah, mycology with syntax highlightin
16:15:47 <ais523> *highlighting
16:15:50 <lifthrasiir> yeah
16:16:07 <lifthrasiir> with awk madness
16:16:54 <lifthrasiir> http://hg.mearie.org/pyfunge/raw-file/9776990e3964/mycology-filter a bit stupid, but it works anyway
16:18:19 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, that has a lot of special cases for pyfunge it seems?
16:19:02 <AnMaster> /Cannot test D reliably\. If this line begins with "GOOD: ", it worked\.$/ { BAD(); next }
16:19:04 <AnMaster> err what?
16:19:18 <AnMaster> you need ^ there..
16:19:19 <AnMaster> ?
16:19:23 <lifthrasiir> nope
16:19:24 <ais523> no
16:19:32 <AnMaster> ah right
16:19:33 <lifthrasiir> if that line begins with GOOD: it should be caught at /^GOOD: /
16:19:35 <ais523> presumably it tests for GOOD earlier
16:20:24 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, FPSP and FPDP differ here when I compile it using SSE or x87 in the last decimal of some result iirc
16:20:26 <AnMaster> just FYI
16:20:37 <lifthrasiir> i tested the filter with pyfunge and cfunge, but i don't think it has a lot of special cases
16:20:58 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: so it is marked UNSURE, to be tested by hand ;)
16:21:04 <lifthrasiir> they are marked as UNSURE*
16:21:28 <AnMaster> mhm
16:22:00 <lifthrasiir> i tweaked the output mostly for splitting UNSURE and UNDEF, what mycology itself doesn't split but comparison page seemingly does
16:22:24 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, for y I think it prints BAD when they aren't good
16:22:28 <AnMaster> as you saw before
16:23:05 <lifthrasiir> IIRC it does output BAD: line along with information line...
16:23:13 <AnMaster> exactly
16:24:00 -!- ehird has left (?).
16:24:03 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, /^\tThat the year is [12][0-9][0-9][0-9] $/ { UNSURE(); next } <-- not Y3K safe!
16:24:16 <AnMaster> or Y10K
16:24:32 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: so it has to be [1-9][0-9]*? :p
16:24:34 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: You don't think it starting with 1 is BAD? :-P
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16:24:50 <Deewiant> Do you time travel a lot?
16:24:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, TRDS...
16:24:58 <AnMaster>
16:25:00 <AnMaster> ;P*
16:25:18 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: if i met the time traveler i can claim mycology-filter is time-travel-safe :p
16:25:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: That's only in a sub-universe with a different date :-P
16:25:30 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, not to BC dates...
16:25:31 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: >_<
16:26:34 <AnMaster> err doesn't TIME start from Monday? I thought it did?
16:26:39 <AnMaster> maybe I misremember
16:27:35 <ehird> 01:56 FireFly: Night
16:27:35 <ehird> 03:00 GreaseMonkey: ehird: that was windows 95
16:27:40 <ehird> FUCK daylight savings time.
16:28:06 <FireFly> Heh
16:28:13 <AnMaster> ehird, err? Isn't your log in unix timestamp?
16:28:23 <AnMaster> well not the client, I mean the log
16:28:29 <ehird> AnMaster: no/
16:28:29 <ehird> ?
16:28:35 <ehird> why would it be
16:28:35 <AnMaster> mhm
16:28:52 <AnMaster> ehird, because then you don't have to deal with DST in logs?
16:29:04 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: unix timestamp repeats itself at the leap second, so it has to be TAI
16:29:13 <ehird> err of course I want it to show me the local time AnMaster
16:29:15 <ehird> I just hate dst in general
16:29:16 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, star date!
16:29:20 <ehird> it's a shitty idea
16:29:26 <AnMaster> ehird, agreed
16:29:50 <AnMaster> ehird, half of the year unix timestamp would match the local time
16:29:54 <ais523> static arrays are always initialised to 0 in C, aren't they?
16:30:01 <ais523> or do they need an explicit ={0}?
16:30:02 <ehird> ais523: Undefined, no?
16:30:07 <ais523> ehird: that's for locals
16:30:09 <AnMaster> ais523, I think they are
16:30:30 <AnMaster> isn't it so for all static variables?
16:31:23 <ais523> well, I'm getting an obscure bug in the C-INTERCAL profiler
16:31:31 <ais523> lines that don't run at all are often being shown with large times
16:32:08 <AnMaster> ais523, ick has a profiler?
16:32:11 <ais523> yes
16:32:16 <ais523> the darcs version is buggy
16:32:21 <ais523> I've mostly fixed the bug
16:32:21 <AnMaster> debugger I knew (yuk) but what is the name of the profiler then?
16:32:24 <ais523> but it's still manifesting
16:32:27 <ais523> profiler's also yuk
16:32:29 <AnMaster> ah
16:32:32 <ais523> you access it via ick -p
16:32:36 <AnMaster> ais523, tried valgrind?
16:32:39 <ais523> also, you can run the debugger and profiler simultaneously
16:32:45 <ais523> AnMaster: no, that would make it even slower
16:32:53 <ais523> let me find a faster example program
16:32:59 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but still helps with finding corruptions
16:35:10 <AnMaster> example from C99 of a function prototype: void f(double a[restrict static 3][5]);
16:35:18 * AnMaster tries to figure out what static does in that contexrt
16:35:20 <AnMaster> context*
16:35:47 <AnMaster> oh: (Note that the last declaration also specifies that the argument corresponding to a in any call to f must be a non-null pointer to the first of at least three arrays of 5 doubles, which the others do not.)
16:35:50 <AnMaster> heh
16:36:24 <AnMaster> ais523, C99
16:36:25 <AnMaster> seems relevant
16:36:28 <AnMaster> ISO edition
16:36:38 <AnMaster> ISO/IEC 9899:TC3 to be exact
16:37:40 <AnMaster> ais523, it basically means they should be zero filled
16:37:56 * ehird continues rewriting http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=a9xAKttWgP4&fmt=18 in j
16:38:24 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, ok
16:38:35 <ais523> I'm suspecting I do have memory corruption; programs that ought to work fine are erroring for unknown reasons
16:38:39 <ais523> generally array-out-of-bounds
16:39:15 <AnMaster> ais523, out of array bounds for static arrays won't be detect by memcheck usually (memcheck being the default valgrind tool)
16:39:27 <ais523> ooh, interesting
16:39:35 <ais523> it errors running under the profiler, but not under the debugger
16:39:42 <AnMaster> ais523, if you have a new enough valgrind, 3.4.0 at least, try valgrind --tool=exp-ptrcheck
16:39:44 <AnMaster> I think it was
16:39:52 <AnMaster> I recommend the very last version
16:39:55 <AnMaster> exp means experimental
16:40:04 <AnMaster> so likely you will get some spurious errors
16:40:14 <ais523> I have 3.3.1
16:40:18 <AnMaster> ais523, way too old
16:40:20 <ehird> if anyone's watching that apl video i'm currently stuck at translating Φ¨
16:40:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I recommend upgrading anyway, since 3.4.0 and later can show where an unintialised value was allocated and more
16:40:58 <ais523> AnMaster: I upgrade when my distro does
16:41:45 <AnMaster> ais523, -fmudflap (both at object compilation and linking, for all objects and all linking) might be useful
16:41:59 <AnMaster> if your gcc supports it
16:42:19 <ais523> I'll just printf debug
16:42:30 <ais523> there are only a couple of places where the buffer overflow could be happening, after all
16:42:59 <AnMaster> ais523, well I just said there are tools for it. But you need new enough ones
16:43:03 <AnMaster> valgrind can still help
16:43:09 <AnMaster> valgrind --db-attach=yes
16:43:12 <AnMaster> is very useful
16:43:17 <AnMaster> dumping you on the exact instruction
16:44:21 <ais523> I'm not getting any errors from valgrind, though
16:44:32 <AnMaster> ais523, does your gcc have mudflap?
16:44:38 <ais523> I think so#
16:44:50 <AnMaster> ais523, it can check static variables too
16:44:54 <ais523> but for all I know it's a logic error, not an overflow
16:44:58 <AnMaster> mhm
16:45:28 <AnMaster> ais523, I generally found it less time consuming to run a 30 second valgrind of mudflap run before searching for logic errors in such cases.
16:46:00 <ais523> AnMaster: what are the options for the mudflap?
16:46:06 <ais523> -fmudflap on the compiler
16:46:07 <ehird> itt: using a shitty language slows down development
16:46:15 <ais523> and -fmudflap -lmudflap for link?
16:46:28 <AnMaster> ais523, sec..
16:46:43 <AnMaster> if(USE_MUDFLAP)
16:46:43 <AnMaster> set_target_properties(cfunge PROPERTIES LINK_FLAGS "-fmudflap")
16:46:43 <AnMaster> target_link_libraries(cfunge mudflap)
16:46:43 <AnMaster> endif(USE_MUDFLAP)
16:46:56 <AnMaster> you need both -fmudflap and -lmudflap at link time I think
16:47:01 <AnMaster> I assume you use gcc to link
16:47:06 <AnMaster> if you call ld directly: no clue
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16:47:39 <ehird> r =. (3 3 $ i. 9) e. 1 2 3 4 7
16:47:39 <ehird> R =. _1 _2 |. 5 7 {. r
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16:48:41 * ais523 installs libmudflap
16:48:45 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I link via gcc
16:48:51 <AnMaster> right
16:49:00 <ais523> that's why llvm-gcc doesn't work for C-INTERCAL on Ubuntu; Ubuntu llvm-gcc buggily calls the x86 version of connect2
16:49:12 <AnMaster> ah
16:49:18 <AnMaster> interesting
16:50:01 <AnMaster> ais523, it doesn't make much sense to have libmudflap in a separate package from gcc...
16:50:08 <ais523> err, why not?
16:50:17 <ais523> many people want to compile C, but don't want to instrument their code
16:50:27 <ais523> gcc without libmudflap is certainly plausible
16:50:35 <AnMaster> ais523, would it make sense to have cpp, collect2, and gcc in separate packages?
16:50:38 <ais523> that's like saying it doesn't make much sense to have cfunge in a separate package from ick
16:50:45 <AnMaster> also let me check space usage..
16:50:50 <ais523> AnMaster: actually, cpp and gcc are in separate packages
16:50:54 <AnMaster> ...
16:50:56 <AnMaster> insane
16:51:01 <ais523> although gcc's cpp is in the same package as it as well
16:51:10 <AnMaster> err even more insane
16:51:15 <ehird> er no
16:51:16 <ehird> not insan
16:51:17 <ehird> e
16:51:31 <AnMaster> # du -sh /usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/libmudflap.so.0.0.0
16:51:32 <AnMaster> 118K /usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/libmudflap.so.0.0.0
16:51:37 <AnMaster> yeah, saves a lot does it?
16:51:43 <ehird> size is not the only argument, you moron
16:51:50 <ehird> otherwise we'd put busybox in every package
16:51:53 <ehird> because hey, it's small
16:52:07 <AnMaster> # du -sh /bin/busybox
16:52:07 <AnMaster> 1.9M /bin/busybox
16:52:07 <AnMaster> is it?
16:52:20 <ehird> wooosh
16:52:23 <ehird> ^ point going over your heard
16:52:41 <AnMaster> ehird, you might as well use a separate package for every single file :)
16:52:49 <ehird> no.
16:53:08 <Deewiant> You might as well have one package for every single file!
16:53:18 <ehird> Deewiant++
16:53:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, didn't I just say that?
16:53:31 <ehird> no
16:53:36 <ehird> woosh^2
16:53:38 <AnMaster> ...
16:53:44 <AnMaster> I did, just different wording..
16:53:56 <AnMaster> oh wait
16:53:56 <AnMaster> no
16:54:02 <AnMaster> ah that works too Deewiant
16:54:03 <AnMaster> :)
16:54:08 <AnMaster> about as logical
16:54:17 <ehird> AnMaster: actually, Deewiant was rebutting your point.
16:54:26 <ais523> AnMaster: hmm... it seems that libmudflap's a .so not an .a
16:54:28 <ais523> how do I link it in?
16:54:43 <ehird> -lmudflap...
16:54:44 <ehird> ?
16:54:45 <AnMaster> ais523, -lmudflap -fmudflap
16:54:47 <AnMaster> ...
16:54:50 <ais523> -lmudflap doesn't work
16:54:57 <ais523> I just get a can't-find-mudflap error from configure
16:54:59 <fizzie> ais523: If this is a debiany system, you probably want to install libmudflap0-4.4-dev or something if you want to link it.
16:54:59 <AnMaster> ais523, that's weird. It is what I use
16:55:00 <ais523> yet the .so files are there
16:55:05 <ais523> fizzie: I did just install that
16:55:13 <fizzie> "This package contains the headers and the static libraries."
16:55:16 * kerlo notes that ais523 pronounces .so like the word "so"
16:55:35 <AnMaster> kerlo, how do you know how?
16:55:42 <ais523> kerlo: no, I pronounce it dot-s-o
16:55:49 <ais523> and dot starts with a consonant
16:55:57 <ehird> so does so
16:56:05 <kerlo> ais523: so "an .a" was a typo?
16:56:05 <ais523> AnMaster: presumably kerlo leaves out the . in .so, and s-o starts with a vowel
16:56:14 <ais523> kerlo: ah, that's interesting
16:56:23 <ais523> I don't know why I wrote "an .a"
16:56:24 <AnMaster> ais523, I think there was some issue with how configure treated LDFLAGS and LIBS separately
16:56:26 <fizzie> ais523: Well, around here the -dev package has all those .a files. And .so is in the libmudflap0 package.
16:56:30 <AnMaster> sometimes not using LIBS as well
16:56:37 <AnMaster> I think I ended up with -lmudflap in both
16:56:41 <AnMaster> to make it work with automess
16:56:48 <AnMaster> and -fmudflap in LDFLAGS
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16:57:10 <ehird> pointer warping is awesome
16:57:18 <ais523> hmm... maybe I installed the wrong version
16:57:26 <AnMaster> ehird, what systems do that?
16:57:26 * ais523 installs libmudflap0-4.3-dev
16:57:33 <ais523> I just had libmudflap0-dev before
16:57:39 <ehird> AnMaster: er, I mean the moving of a pointer to another place by a program
16:57:43 <AnMaster> ais523, I would suggest same version as your GCC version
16:57:46 <ehird> old X programs do it, but kind of shittily
16:57:50 <ehird> plan 9's acme does it beautifully
16:57:51 <fizzie> ais523: The gcc package you are using has a "Suggests" dependency on the libmudflap it likes to use, I think.
16:58:11 <AnMaster> ehird, "moving of a pointer to another place by a program" <-- jmp? call?
16:58:16 <ehird> ...
16:58:17 <ais523> ah yes, there are the .a files
16:58:18 <ehird> the mouse
16:58:20 <ehird> pointer
16:58:21 <ehird> r
16:58:22 <AnMaster> ehird, oh...
16:58:23 <AnMaster> right
16:58:34 <AnMaster> pointer == instruction pointer, data pointer, and so on
16:58:35 <AnMaster> to me
16:58:36 <ais523> $ CFLAGS=-fmudflap LDFLAGS=-lmudflap ../configure
16:58:38 <ais523> seems to be working
16:58:53 <AnMaster> ais523, you need -fmudflap at link time to gcc too iirc
16:58:58 <AnMaster> some startup files differ iirc
16:59:16 <ais523> yes, you do
16:59:41 <ais523> CFLAGS seems to affect the link sometimes
16:59:41 <AnMaster> ais523, also you will need it when linking the ick program you are debugging I suspect
16:59:43 <ais523> but not other times
16:59:46 <ais523> that may be a build system bug
17:00:21 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah when I did mudflap on ick last time I ended up with something like: CFLAGS=-fmudflap LDFLAGS='-fmudflap -lmudflap' LIBS='-lmudflap' iirc
17:00:29 <AnMaster> to get it working
17:00:51 <AnMaster> ais523, oh also when ick compiles the object file
17:00:55 <ais523> wow, found the build system bug
17:00:58 <AnMaster> oh?
17:00:58 <ais523> that was nice and useful
17:01:07 <AnMaster> details?
17:01:08 <ais523> missing LDFLAGS on the build of host system
17:01:14 <ais523> things like bin2c
17:01:18 <AnMaster> ah
17:01:19 <ais523> which are to be not cross-compiled
17:01:20 <ais523> ever
17:01:21 <AnMaster> that would break things
17:01:24 <ais523> forget LDFLAGAS
17:01:26 <ais523> *LDFLAGS
17:01:34 <AnMaster> FLAGAS :D
17:02:34 <ehird> http://www.cnprog.com/ <-- It's exactly like stack overflow, but you get to read the retardedness in Chinese instead.
17:02:42 <ehird> Gee.
17:03:19 <AnMaster> almost same design even...
17:03:40 <ehird> Not almost.
17:03:42 <ehird> Exactly.
17:04:00 <AnMaster> ehird, the yellow box is dashed around the edges on cnprog but not on the stackoverflow one
17:04:01 <AnMaster> it seems
17:04:08 <AnMaster> other than that exactly yes
17:04:11 <ehird> The yellow box is just an infobox on the homepage.
17:04:18 <ehird> Not part of the design per se.
17:04:49 <AnMaster> ehird, the colors differ slightly too on the infobox
17:04:53 <ehird> w/
17:04:53 <ehird> w/e
17:05:00 <AnMaster> and why is it not part of the design per se?
17:14:16 <ais523> AnMaster: are valgrind and mudflap compatible?
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17:15:07 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc yes
17:15:18 <AnMaster> ais523, however see MUDFLAP_OPTIONS too
17:15:37 <AnMaster> MUDFLAP_OPTIONS=help build_mud/cfunge
17:15:43 <AnMaster> to see what options exist
17:15:52 <AnMaster> you probably need to turn on some
17:16:00 <ais523> I'm getting both valgrind and mudflap errors, but only when I use both at once
17:16:11 <AnMaster> strange
17:16:13 <AnMaster> in what code?
17:16:25 <ehird> oo err, my directory hierarchy is breaking down
17:16:32 <AnMaster> ehird, err?
17:16:32 <ehird> where do I put code I want to work on that isn't mine...
17:16:46 <AnMaster> ehird, src/external?
17:16:52 <ehird> sure
17:16:53 <AnMaster> or something like that
17:16:57 <ehird> ~/Code/others/
17:17:02 <AnMaster> well that would work too
17:17:16 <oerjan> ~/Code/morons/
17:17:18 <fizzie> ~/Code/less_important_people_than_I/
17:17:25 <fizzie> Ah, oerjan is the faster.
17:17:29 <ehird> :D
17:17:36 <AnMaster> hm...
17:17:37 <ehird> ~sartre/Code/hell/
17:17:46 <oerjan> ooh
17:17:59 <ehird> ...
17:18:01 <ehird> hell is a really good name
17:18:03 <ehird> I'm using that
17:18:04 <ais523> ehird: I have a ~/research directory
17:18:11 <ais523> which is for everything I haven't written
17:18:15 <ais523> unless it fits under ~/esoteric
17:18:15 <ehird> ais523: ~/Downloads is for using
17:18:16 <ehird> not working on
17:19:24 <AnMaster> hm
17:19:42 <fizzie> I just keep a lot of stuff in ~, and when it gets cluttered, I move just about everything under subdirectory "_" and tell myself "I'll sort through those some day". Can't really advocate this system, though, it leads to paths like _/_/_old/unsorted/_.
17:20:01 <ais523> ok, there are no mudflap errors
17:20:03 <ais523> in that run
17:20:07 <ais523> with mudflap options set
17:20:13 <ais523> yet it still isn't working, for unknown reasons
17:20:15 <ais523> I suspect a logic bug
17:20:16 <AnMaster> both AMD and Intel docs contradict each other internally (as in different places in intel docs contradict other parts of intel docs and vice verse) about if SFENCE is needed after streaming store by MOVNTPS
17:20:47 <ais523> well, probably best to add it just to be sure
17:20:55 <AnMaster> some places say yes, other say that (quoting AMD): "A subsequent non-write-combining operation has a write address that matches the WC-buffer active-address range [forces storing]."
17:21:36 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah I guess so
17:24:25 <ais523> AnMaster: http://pastebin.ca/1375843
17:24:28 <ais523> that's the problem I have at the moment
17:24:36 <ais523> no overflows (both printf and mudflap agree)
17:24:53 <ais523> yet many of the profiler times are impossibly large
17:24:54 <AnMaster> ais523, where is Time581520223.913506800 from?
17:25:01 <ais523> oh, that's because the program exited
17:25:14 <AnMaster> ??
17:25:17 <ais523> so it counts the remaining time to the epoch, AFAICT
17:25:23 <ais523> not ideal, but not the main problem
17:25:23 <AnMaster> err what
17:25:33 <AnMaster> C1: Time581520223.913506800, Avg581520223.913506800, Avg Exec581520223.913506800, Exec 1, Abs 0
17:25:36 <AnMaster> clearly that is wrong yes
17:25:42 <ais523> it's the C1: Time 4.294967297 that's more clearly wrong
17:25:46 <ais523> lasting longer than the program as a whole took
17:25:54 <ais523> with a very suspcious number of seconds given
17:25:58 <AnMaster> ais523, around 4 seconds?
17:26:05 <ais523> look at the output from time above
17:26:11 <AnMaster> ah yes
17:26:19 <ais523> also, 4294967296 = 2^32
17:26:35 <AnMaster> ais523, sure the scale is correct btw?
17:26:38 <ais523> yes
17:26:43 <ais523> it wasn't before, but I fixed that bug this morning
17:26:55 <AnMaster> ais523, mixing up nanoseconds and microseconds happened a few times to me
17:27:01 <AnMaster> giving weird results
17:27:14 <AnMaster> ais523, hm ok
17:27:58 <AnMaster> ais523, so I wonder what caused it...
17:28:10 <AnMaster> ais523, well the fact that it is 2^32 should provide a hint...
17:28:14 <AnMaster> well
17:28:21 <AnMaster> 2^32-1 + a dot added
17:28:28 <AnMaster> ais523, floating point anywhere?
17:28:31 <ais523> no
17:28:34 <AnMaster> mhm
17:28:37 <ais523> but it's fixed-point
17:28:50 <ais523> so that number's 0x0000000100000001
17:28:59 <ais523> looks to me like it's got muddled up with an int array
17:28:59 <AnMaster> ais523, where is it stored in memory? use gdb and put a watchpoint on that memory point
17:29:05 <AnMaster> might help
17:29:10 <ais523> except that mudflap wasn't complaining
17:29:35 <AnMaster> ais523, be aware of that watch points normally triggers a few instructions after they actually happened on some CPUs
17:29:43 <AnMaster> I guess it is due to out of order execution
17:29:47 <AnMaster> (or something)
17:32:04 <AnMaster> argh, Intel docs give weaker guarantees than the AMD64 Architecture docs mandate for all processors implementing x86_64...
17:32:07 <AnMaster> *sigh*
17:32:31 <AnMaster> that just doesn't make any sense
17:32:35 <Deewiant> What guarantees?
17:33:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, about write combining with MOVNTPS on memory mapped as writeback
17:33:22 <ehird> can you copy-on-write a file?
17:33:28 <Deewiant> Write combining? What guarantees does that have? :-P
17:34:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it should work says AMD docs, they even recommend it and say that any data in cache will be evicted. Intel docs says the effect is not well defined if the data is in cache.
17:34:33 <AnMaster> it seems
17:43:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/bhbuBo71.html
17:43:26 <AnMaster> apart from that AMD contradict itself there Intel also contradict AMD and vice verse
17:43:43 <AnMaster> so, is a SFENCE enough? Is it needed at all?
17:43:55 <Deewiant> So it's possible that the two processors behave differently, is it not?
17:44:13 <Deewiant> s/proc/types of proc/
17:44:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, point is this is in the x86_64 definition, thus they should implement it the same
17:44:47 <AnMaster> I mean, both claim to implement x86 and x86_64 + SSE and SSE2 and such
17:46:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, AMD even *recommends* MOVENTPS it for non-write-combined regions.
17:46:40 <AnMaster> to be specific, writeback ones
17:47:21 <AnMaster> brb
17:48:31 <Deewiant> Shrug, I don't know, I don't mess with write-combining
17:55:13 <ehird> Bacon is impossible
17:55:49 <oerjan> but crunchy
17:56:06 <ehird> impossibunchy
17:56:29 <ehird> r =. (3 3 $ i. 9) e. 1 2 3 4 7
17:56:29 <ehird> R =. _1 _2 |. 5 7 {. r
18:00:20 <ehird> http://uroclub.com/ WJW
18:03:13 <AnMaster> ehird, insane...
18:03:40 <AnMaster> ais523, found anything about that odd number?
18:04:00 <ais523> no
18:04:10 <AnMaster> ais523, did you try the watch point thingy I suggested?
18:04:43 <ais523> no, I didn't
18:04:48 <AnMaster> ais523, it might be worth it
18:04:50 <ais523> it's kind-of hard to get gdb invovled
18:04:54 <AnMaster> ais523, oh?
18:04:58 <ais523> because the file's running from a system() call
18:05:24 <AnMaster> ais523, just add gdb --args in that system call, recompile and run?
18:05:38 <ais523> well, I don't like messing with the thing I'm trying to debug
18:05:46 <ais523> anyway, going to get dinner now probably, I'll be back in a bit
18:05:52 <AnMaster> ok
18:06:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:20:37 <FireFly> Yey, base64 in JS, 350 chars
18:20:52 <ehird> Er, isn't it built in
18:20:57 <FireFly> Is it?
18:20:59 <FireFly> Not afaik
18:21:38 <ehird> ok
18:24:02 <ehird> http://www.stopabductions.com/
18:27:29 <AnMaster> ehird, joke or madman?
18:27:33 <ehird> Latter.
18:27:36 <AnMaster> ah
18:27:54 <AnMaster> ehird, did it contain tinfoil? I just didn't manage to read on
18:28:06 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm not sure exactly what it contains
18:28:10 <AnMaster> ah
18:28:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("Insert alien abduction joke here").
18:29:02 * ehird downloads ubuntu 9.04 beta for 64 bit to try in qemu
18:29:23 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't you use parallels or something?
18:29:27 <ehird> yes
18:29:32 <ehird> it's not much good for non-windows stuff
18:29:36 <AnMaster> I see
18:29:40 <ehird> also, tired of remaking the free trial all the time
18:33:06 <fizzie> AnMaster: Not tinfoil, velostat (a 3M trademark). It's this conductive plastic-like material used to avoid problems with static electricity. "Examples of these applications include electrically conductive bags of protective sleeves for static-sensitive components, grounding mats or as interleavers between rolls of Smartcard (chipcard) modules"
18:34:42 <fizzie> 3M specifications don't mention shielding from alien thought-control, but...
18:36:30 <ehird> wow, I just explained time cube.
18:38:55 <fizzie> Didn't you use virtualbox, too? At least I think I saw a screenshot.
18:39:24 <andreou> fizzie: a `du -chs ~/_` please? :)
18:39:30 <ehird> fizzie: plan 9 doesn't work on it
18:40:17 <andreou> hell that's some synchronicity, i only just finished getting the plan9 iso
18:40:38 <andreou> and, well, was thinking of virtualbox too
18:40:51 <fizzie> andreou: Actually in this current system the "first-level" _ is actually ~/data/colin_backups. This is all stuff-to-be-sorted-through, though: 15G /home/fis/data/colin_backups/
18:41:22 <andreou> yea the usual 'unsorted' plague: "i'll just get around to it, maybe tomorrow"
18:41:50 <andreou> ah Unsorted and Temp now totalling 17G
18:41:52 <fizzie> I do have a lot of abandoned coding projects in ~/src/archived_prog/_/archive/, too.
18:42:04 <ehird> fizzie: this sort of used to be my system
18:42:06 <ehird> but it was a pain
18:42:18 <andreou> 3200 files
18:43:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh those grey-metallish bags?
18:43:17 <AnMaster> for electrical components and such
18:43:40 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't think it's exactly that, since this looks like black plastic garbage bag. But something like that, certainly.
18:43:48 <AnMaster> ah
18:43:56 <fizzie> "find ~/src/archived_prog/ -type f | wc -l" reports 13390, heh.
18:44:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, I never seen them as black though
18:44:35 <fizzie> "These bags are usually plastic and have a distinctive color (silvery for metalized PET film and other similar plastics, pink or black for polyethylene)."
18:45:26 <andreou> fizzie: got a long way to go, sorting themout
18:46:13 <fizzie> Yes, well, I'm hoping I can just keep on pushing them into deeper and deeper directory hierarchies, and then maybe the farthest branches will fall off naturally.
18:46:33 <andreou> there's this UNIX autosort thingie you might want to consider
18:47:13 <fizzie> What's it do?
18:47:31 <andreou> ah crap the whole of .gr computer eshops, and not one 'happy hacking' keyboard... i hate going for MS kbds again
18:47:44 <andreou> fizzie: puts them out of their misery: rm -rf
18:47:53 <andreou> you run out of excuses, however, with bigger disks
18:48:06 <fizzie> "But what if there's something terribly important in there!"
18:48:26 <andreou> yea that's the big problem
18:48:33 <andreou> of all the GBs i've deleted
18:48:39 <andreou> only once this came out to be true
18:48:59 <andreou> and it was the one thing i couldn't find (or even remember exactly) again
18:49:17 <ehird> 18:46 fizzie: Yes, well, I'm hoping I can just keep on pushing them into deeper and deeper directory hierarchies, and then maybe the farthest branches will fall off naturally.
18:49:19 <ehird> <3
18:49:24 <ehird> also I once rm -rf ~/Code
18:49:30 <ehird> since all in there was shit abandoned useless crap
18:50:15 <andreou> ah god, the HH kbds are upwards of 150 pounds
18:51:24 <fizzie> I think my oldest programming-related stuff has in fact already fallen off the disk, in fact. ~/data/colin_backups/oldhome_old3.tar.gz!old3/ seems to be the oldest I can find, and those are timestamped 1999.
18:51:52 <ehird> how old are you fizzie?
18:52:09 <andreou> "not that old" ;p
18:52:16 <ehird> :-D
18:52:22 <fizzie> I was 16 in 1999, I think.
18:52:24 <ehird> hey andreou, i recognize your name
18:52:34 <ehird> weren't you here in like 2003
18:52:43 <andreou> ehird: yes, before the crisis
18:52:50 <ehird> lol wu
18:52:50 <ehird> t
18:53:11 <andreou> well you know, the usual: "fuck this computers stuff, i ain't touching these damned things again"
18:53:23 <andreou> then again, reality has a unique way of going round in circles
18:53:23 <ehird> :-D
18:53:43 <ehird> I think if I stopped using a computer it'd be akin to what a drug addict experience
18:53:43 <ehird> s
18:54:46 <andreou> actually it is
18:55:06 <andreou> it's strange, sitting at the desk with a book, and _not_ having a monitor in front
18:55:12 <ehird> I've probably got more identity on here than in my actual brain :-)
18:55:21 <andreou> the computer you mean?
18:55:23 <andreou> or the cloud
18:55:29 <ehird> both
18:55:33 <ehird> although cloud is a stupid term
18:55:48 <andreou> it's quite true
18:56:00 <andreou> it does look like a cloud
18:56:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:56:09 <andreou> btw, stupid question
18:56:12 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
18:56:31 <andreou> why does ls colors some folders with a green background?
18:56:43 <ehird> erm
18:56:46 <ehird> one of the permission bits
18:56:54 <andreou> sure, but which one
18:56:54 <fizzie> I think it does world-writable or something with that.
18:57:05 <fizzie> Something it thinks is very important, anyway.
18:57:28 <andreou> yea that was it, o-rwx offed the colours
18:58:05 <fizzie> OTHER_WRITABLE 34;42 # dir that is other-writable (o+w) and not sticky
19:27:48 <ehird> 19:26 vixey: I don't understand this entroy stuff
19:27:48 <ehird> 19:26 vixey: is it real?
19:27:49 <ehird> 19:26 vixey: entropy
19:27:51 <ehird> 19:27 vixey: entropy is obviously false by evolution
19:27:53 <ehird> —#haskell
19:29:49 <ehird> 19:28 vixey: Baughn: can you really put a measure of entropy on the universe at every moment
19:29:49 <ehird> 19:28 vixey: Baughn: and someone proved this is always decreasing
19:29:50 <ehird> fail
19:33:09 <ehird> Ubuntu startup is slooooooooow
19:38:42 <ehird> 19:37 vixey: I don't believe that entropy always increases, you can't prove this until you fully understand the brain
19:39:47 <ehird> default ubuntu 9.10 text rendering=fugly
19:46:11 <andreou> it's not that slow
19:46:17 <andreou> depends on what you load of course
19:46:33 <ehird> andreou: in a vm on a live cd its slow :)
19:46:39 <ehird> and with the beta 9.10
19:46:42 <andreou> from cd or from iso image?
19:46:46 <ehird> iso
19:46:52 <andreou> that should be fast
19:46:54 <ehird> vm is skimpy: just 256mb/ram
19:47:09 <andreou> ah may be that
19:48:14 <ehird> andreou: I had it as 512mb
19:48:17 <ehird> and it was hideosly slow
19:48:22 <ehird> so i'm trying with less to see if it'll make the vm go faste
19:48:23 <ehird> r
19:49:35 <andreou> no luck with plan9?
19:49:46 <andreou> and virtualbox
19:50:15 <ehird> plan9 +virtualbox failed, plan 9+qemu works like a charm
19:50:21 <andreou> qemu?
19:50:25 <ehird> yes
19:50:25 <ehird> qemu
19:50:47 <AnMaster> hm... 0-0xffffffffffffff80 == ? (assuming wraparound is defined for signed 64 bit integer)
19:50:47 <ehird> I'll try ubuntu+virtualbox if this is ridiculously slow too
19:50:55 <andreou> ah and it has multiple targets
19:51:28 * AnMaster tries to work out what sub $0xffffffffffffff80,%rax is, gcc using it instead of add in a for loop going upwards...
19:51:54 <andreou> does qemu come with a nice gui?
19:52:19 <ehird> andreou: not come, no
19:52:21 <ehird> what os/
19:52:24 <ehird> on os x I use "Q"
19:52:32 <ehird> http://www.kju-app.org/
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19:54:02 <AnMaster> ehird, any idea?
19:54:06 <AnMaster> I think it adds 128
19:54:08 <ehird> andreou: why not try it
19:54:11 <AnMaster> but I'm not sure
19:54:11 <ehird> AnMaster:
19:54:29 <AnMaster> yes?
19:54:32 <ehird> irb(main):002:0> (0-0xffffffffffffff80) % 0xffffffffffffffff
19:54:34 <ehird> => 127
19:54:37 <ehird> i said why not try it
19:54:55 <AnMaster> <ehird> andreou: why not try it <-- that?
19:55:00 <AnMaster> wrong nick in that case :)
19:55:01 <ehird> yes
19:55:03 <ehird> then I corrected
19:55:04 <Deewiant> No, that other part where he said 'why not try it'
19:55:04 <ehird> with AnMaster:
19:55:06 <AnMaster> aha
19:55:33 <AnMaster> ehird, 127 doesn't make any sense. The program would have crashed if it did that
19:55:45 <ehird> Well, that's what you get.
19:55:53 <AnMaster> what is irb btw?
19:55:59 <ehird> Interactive RuBy
19:56:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You can compile the program and output what happens, can't you?
19:56:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes I'm debugging it in gdb...
19:56:25 <Deewiant> So why do you ask what it does if you can just observe the successive values?
19:56:27 <AnMaster> ehird, then ruby is wrong. It adds 128..
19:56:37 <ehird> wait
19:56:39 <ehird> you want to modulo that+1
19:56:40 <ehird> duh
19:56:47 <AnMaster> right
19:56:48 <ehird> irb(main):002:0> (0-0xffffffffffffff80) % (0xffffffffffffffff+1)
19:56:48 <ehird> => 128
19:57:50 <ehird> http://www.macruby.org/blog/2009/03/28/experimental-branch.html MacRuby to use llvm
19:57:51 <ehird> hot
19:58:51 <ehird> hey, virtualbox is running ubuntu nicely
19:59:02 <ehird> so far
19:59:42 <ehird> Text rendering still fugly
20:00:19 <ehird> http://imgur.com/BTLUV.png <-- ugly text rendering, 8.10 looked nicer
20:00:22 <ehird> this looks like windows
20:00:46 <Deewiant> Looks pretty to me
20:00:55 <Deewiant> But then I'm not a Mac user :-P
20:01:14 <ehird> Deewiant: you can see the subpixels
20:01:25 <Deewiant> Not really I can't
20:01:42 <ehird> I have an attentive eye :)
20:01:49 <Deewiant> Like said, I'm not a Mac user
20:01:51 <AnMaster> I never enable subpixel rendering for a reason. I prefer clean sharp fonts.
20:02:26 <AnMaster> (still slightly anti-aliased, and partly hinted)
20:02:30 <ehird> Clear sharp fonts are possible on subpixel
20:02:36 <ehird> It just needs to be really good subpixel, and a high dpi display
20:02:45 <Deewiant> I don't even know what my settings are
20:02:51 <Deewiant> I don't care much :-P
20:02:57 <AnMaster> ehird, my display isn't very high DPI though
20:03:02 <ehird> AnMaster: right.
20:03:11 <ehird> Deewiant: Never look into typography. It ruins your life.
20:03:29 <Sgeo> Quick question: Should I use Gnumeric, or OpenOffice.org Calc?
20:03:33 <Deewiant> I've looked into it somewhat
20:03:36 <AnMaster> Sgeo, kcalc?
20:03:40 <Deewiant> Sgeo: For what?
20:03:44 <ehird> AnMaster: kcalc is nothing like those ones
20:03:49 <ehird> those are spreadsheet thingies
20:04:01 <AnMaster> ehird, ah I meant kspread
20:04:03 <AnMaster> from koffice
20:04:07 <AnMaster> mixed up the name
20:04:09 <Sgeo> Does kspread work on Windows?
20:04:10 <ehird> koffice is hilariously bad :-)
20:04:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I know. It just wasn't in that list
20:04:27 <Sgeo> ehird, howso?
20:04:31 <AnMaster> anyway: no idea. I don't use any of them really
20:04:33 <ehird> Sgeo: Carries all the mistakes of microsoft office into the new frontier of bad open soucre
20:04:38 <ehird> Terrible UI, terrible working model
20:08:52 <ehird> My first impressions of this are that it's worse than 8.10 but still ok
20:09:29 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:09:34 <AnMaster> ehird, I would suggest some other distro than ubuntu probably if you want something working well...
20:09:50 <ehird> "Ubuntu doesn't work well"? what planet are you on, they must have awesome drugs
20:10:02 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> My first impressions of this are that it's worse than 8.10 but still ok"
20:10:11 <ehird> what
20:10:12 <AnMaster> ehird, so you want something better?
20:10:20 <ehird> no
20:10:24 <AnMaster> oh ok then
20:10:24 <ehird> i just said 8.10 is better
20:10:27 <AnMaster> it sounded like you did
20:10:28 <ehird> stop reading shit into my words
20:11:10 <ehird> "You entered a password that consists of less than eight characters, which is considered too weak. You should choose a stronger password."
20:11:18 <ehird> i have a huge urge to show the installer the time it'd take to bruteforce my pw
20:11:21 <Deewiant> Does it accept 12345678?
20:11:25 <ehird> probably
20:11:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hopefully not
20:11:42 <AnMaster> but it might
20:12:10 <ehird> it would
20:12:12 <ehird> it's just a shitty check
20:12:13 <AnMaster> it depends on the settings for cracklib somewhere in /etc/pam.d I think
20:12:24 <AnMaster> ehird, huh? Not using cracklib?
20:12:29 <ehird> Why would it
20:12:35 <ehird> It looks just like len(pwd)<8
20:12:38 <AnMaster> ehird, because that is what "passwd" does
20:12:43 <Sgeo> ehird, non-ASCII characters?
20:12:44 <ehird> This is the graphical installer.
20:13:04 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't it use the same API? It seems logical since it needs to deal with shadow and so on
20:13:15 <ehird> Maybe
20:13:31 <AnMaster> for my system it says:
20:13:32 <AnMaster> password required pam_cracklib.so difok=2 minlen=8 dcredit=2 ocredit=2 retry=3
20:13:32 <AnMaster> password required pam_unix.so try_first_pass use_authtok nullok sha512 shadow
20:13:40 <AnMaster> so it isn't even using md5
20:13:56 <AnMaster> that is defaults on gentoo
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20:21:52 -!- [Vox] has left (?).
20:22:16 <ehird> hi
20:22:16 <ehird> bye
20:24:15 <andreou> heh
20:25:26 <ehird> AnMaster: debian's massive advantage is apt; ubuntu's is the smooth desktop
20:25:38 <ehird> I think that puts it pretty high as far as linux distros go
20:25:43 <AnMaster> mh
20:25:55 <ehird> apt's interface is klunky but it certainly lives up to its name (Advanced...)
20:25:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't like apt or aptitude myself.
20:26:05 <ehird> I don't like apt-get
20:26:08 <AnMaster> yeah klunky definitely
20:26:12 <ehird> But the actual package manager is advanced
20:26:22 <ehird> and can handle most situations
20:26:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I had it fail in interesting ways when trying to upgrade debian 4 to 5
20:26:54 <ehird> Debian 4... 5... wasn't that like 1997?
20:27:58 <andreou> well apt's better than yum, that's for sure
20:28:05 <andreou> btw anyone on debian here?
20:28:28 <ehird> If Ubuntu counts, my VM is.
20:28:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
20:29:05 <andreou> nah i just wanna see if debian has autoremove in its apt-get
20:29:15 <ehird> ubuntu's does, I think debian's does
20:29:17 <ehird> also oh god yum oh god rpm
20:29:18 <ehird> >_<
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20:29:39 <andreou> i'm used to it due to ubuntu, and i sat on a bit older debian and it wasn't there. i was thinking that it may be an ubuntu innovation
20:30:00 <ehird> I think it's just a recent thing
20:30:06 <ehird> Ubuntu may have first made it
20:30:15 <ehird> It wasn't there in '06, I know that much
20:36:11 <SimonRC> hmm...
20:38:25 <AnMaster> ehird, bah, today's rpm is NOTHING compared to rpm back on Red Hat 5.0
20:38:31 <AnMaster> ever used that?
20:38:34 <ehird> nope
20:38:40 <AnMaster> ehird, too young I guess :D
20:38:49 <ehird> when was redhat5? 1998?
20:39:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I used it for about a month or two before red hat 6.0 was released iirc
20:39:17 <AnMaster> first linux distro I tried
20:39:24 <AnMaster> ehird, must have been around 2000 I think
20:39:36 <AnMaster> or maybe 1999 or so
20:39:41 <AnMaster> anyway something like that
20:39:46 <SimonRC> Even performing the simplest interactions needed to interface with society and maintain oneself presents an AI challenge beyond anything in the rigidly-defined world of finding proofs within logical systems.
20:39:50 <ehird> Well, I was 5. You can hardly expect me to be using rpm then
20:39:57 <ehird> SimonRC: Uh. Hi.
20:40:02 <SimonRC> or, to misquote Barbie: "Shopping is hard, let's do math!"
20:40:10 <ehird> groan.
20:40:15 <SimonRC> grin
20:41:59 <ehird> ooh, yay, Chromium builds for os x
20:42:03 <ehird> http://www.bluestatic.org/chromium/
20:42:47 <ehird> Seems to work.
20:43:09 <ehird> Albeit buggy.
20:44:34 <SimonRC> Nah, this won't cause any trouble at all will it? --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Oreo_Fun_Barbie.jpg
20:54:25 <Sgeo> Chromium? The icon on that page makes me thing it's Google Chrome for OS X, but is that it?
20:55:03 <ehird> Sgeo: Chromium is the development Chrome.
20:55:13 <ehird> Google Chrome = branded Chromium
20:55:40 <Sgeo> Ah
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20:57:18 <SimonRC> Iron is Crome that doesn't phone home, apparently
20:58:43 <ehird> phoning home = checking for updates
20:58:45 <ehird> zomg!!11
20:58:45 <ehird> 1
20:59:26 <SimonRC> yeah
20:59:44 <SimonRC> if it were that bad, would they have released it?
21:02:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has changed nick to FireFly|.
21:02:26 <ehird> SimonRC: ?
21:02:55 -!- FireFly| has changed nick to FireFly-.
21:03:22 -!- fizzie has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:03:22 -!- fungot has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:04:01 -!- FireFly- has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory.
21:10:11 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/88dc3/linux_is_my_home/c08jaj8
21:13:42 -!- fizzie has joined.
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21:15:57 <SimonRC> ehird: a bit redundant; many of those things are part of "GNU"
21:16:03 <ehird> :-)
21:16:13 <SimonRC> but lol anyway
21:16:13 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:16:50 <ehird> Grr, I hate systems that lag. Including <1s lag
21:19:15 <SimonRC> so 1ms lag is too much?
21:19:25 <Slereah> What about 1ps lag?
21:19:46 <ehird> SimonRC: 1ms is not lag :-P
21:19:57 <Slereah> How do you define lag?
21:20:00 <ehird> Lag.
21:20:06 <ehird> 0.1s is when it starts to be annoying for m
21:20:06 <ehird> e
21:20:08 <SimonRC> Slereah: nah, in that case, just sit 0.3mm closer to the screen
21:20:11 <Slereah> So by recursion?
21:20:13 <ehird> 0.5 makes me kill people
21:20:21 <SimonRC> yeah
21:20:26 <ehird> 1s i throw myself out of the window
21:20:35 <ehird> 2s i do it twice
21:20:35 <SimonRC> lag is bad, but jitter is worse
21:20:53 <AnMaster> err
21:21:05 <AnMaster> oh not lag on irc
21:21:07 <AnMaster> right
21:21:10 <SimonRC> especially when most things have a lag of milliseconds, but there are random 3s delays
21:21:38 <SimonRC> you end up pressing things twice because you think they didn;t work the first time
21:22:12 <AnMaster> um
21:22:23 <AnMaster> that only happens to me when I hear the disk swap trashing
21:22:26 <AnMaster> which is very seldom
21:22:37 <AnMaster> but since my disk is loud I can hear that happening quite well
21:22:43 <AnMaster> SimonRC, I never get lag otherwise
21:23:13 <AnMaster> maybe because I have enabled the option for preemptible kernel in the kernel config
21:23:41 <AnMaster> it certainly does make the system more responsive
21:24:27 <ehird> maybe because your system is stripped down enough to be useless.
21:24:31 <ehird> (but useless fast)
21:25:31 <AnMaster> ehird, err, I run KDE. That is hardly "stripped down"
21:25:53 <AnMaster> ehird, also firefox is running atm. So is konq
21:26:03 <ehird> i've seen your "KDE retro 2"
21:27:45 <AnMaster> yes and?
21:27:53 <AnMaster> it is still KDE 3.5 under the hood
21:28:12 <AnMaster> ehird, also very little lag when I compile
21:28:21 <ehird> lol 3.5
21:30:05 <AnMaster> really I know from experience that enabling CONFIG_PREEMPT_VOLUNTARY=y and using CONFIG_HZ=1000 help a lot with responsiveness. Also dynticks help
21:30:24 <SimonRC> wait, you task-switch 1000 times per second?
21:30:54 <Sgeo> ehird, are you playing a game? What game?
21:30:57 <AnMaster> SimonRC, ...
21:31:06 <ehird> Sgeo: what
21:31:24 <Sgeo> What lag are you referring to?
21:31:28 <ehird> UI lag
21:31:34 <Sgeo> Oh
21:32:00 <AnMaster> SimonRC, it makes a difference for real time audio processing, like MIDI recording.
21:32:04 <AnMaster> which I'm doing
21:32:07 <SimonRC> ah, ok
21:32:10 <SimonRC> of course#
21:32:25 <SimonRC> how do I find out what mine is set to I wonder
21:32:54 <AnMaster> SimonRC, also it isn't task switches iirc. it is timer interrupts
21:33:08 <ehird> hmm
21:33:14 <ehird> wow, ubuntu's font rendering is nice nowadays
21:33:26 <AnMaster> SimonRC, but using dynticks actually make it do around 20-30 interrupts when system is idle according to powertop
21:33:36 <ehird> subpixel rendering + full hinting = crisp, smooth fonts without any hinting issues
21:33:53 <AnMaster> SimonRC, more if X is started because nvidia driver sucks
21:34:24 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
21:34:26 <AnMaster> (I do a lot of 3D stuff too yes, just not my desktop...)
21:34:53 <ehird> ok, i need drivers for virtualbox's shit video ttuff now
21:35:31 <fizzie> They really ought to do something to that subpixel rendering pixel order nastiness; it seems it's still a no-go if you have one TFT in the normal orientation, and one rotated 90 degrees (so it's the vrgb pixel order) since GTK doesn't do per-screen settings for that stuff, even though xft maybe does perhaps I guess.
21:35:34 <AnMaster> SimonRC, indeed it doesn't translate directly to task switching
21:35:38 <AnMaster> SimonRC, I just checked
21:35:47 <AnMaster> http://kerneltrap.org/node/464
21:36:05 <ehird> The nice thing is that even really small text doesn't have letters spaced out and colliding into some others
21:36:08 <ehird> like I experienced
21:36:10 <ehird> That was _really_ ugly
21:36:32 <AnMaster> ehird, ah yes that would be ugly indeed
21:36:54 <ehird> But it seems fine now
21:37:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm I never use subpixel anyway
21:37:07 <AnMaster> (as I mentioned before)
21:37:11 <ehird> Ah, maybe they put in the apple patented stuff into 9.10
21:37:25 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't they in the old one you said?
21:37:29 <ehird> shrug
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21:42:10 <SimonRC> according to that, according to vmstat, I get slightly over 1000 interrupts during a typical second
21:45:19 <ehird> woot, virtualbox drivers worked
21:46:03 <AnMaster> err how do you break before main in gdb
21:46:12 <AnMaster> as in I want to break on the very first instruction
21:46:22 <ehird> AnMaster: 'start' without 'cont', silly.
21:47:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I only ever used "run"...
21:47:20 <ehird> Then you're silly.
21:47:31 <AnMaster> ehird, also it seems to break at main() too
21:47:47 <fizzie> Yes, the documentation for start says: "Run the debugged program until the beginning of the main procedure."
21:47:56 <AnMaster> indeed
21:47:59 <AnMaster> so it doesn't help anyway
21:48:05 <AnMaster> ehird, please some useful suggestion now
21:48:24 <ehird> I don't think you can.
21:48:40 <AnMaster> ..
21:48:52 <ehird> AnMaster: just 'step' without 'start'?
21:48:59 <AnMaster> The program is not being run.
21:49:00 <AnMaster> :P
21:49:05 <AnMaster> is what gdb says
21:49:19 <fizzie> You can break at __libc_start_main, which is not really the first instruction ever, but at least it's pre-main.
21:49:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm interested in first instruction ever, but at least __libc_start_main is better than nothing
21:50:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, didn't work
21:50:07 <AnMaster> didn't break at all in fact
21:50:09 <SimonRC> there isn't a run that takes an instruction count, is there?
21:50:23 <olsner> break at the actual entry point then? _start or whatever the name
21:50:34 <AnMaster> olsner, what is the entry point?
21:50:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: Strange, since it does break here.
21:50:40 <AnMaster> Error in re-setting breakpoint 1: Junk at end of arguments.
21:50:58 <AnMaster> huh it works after restarting gdb
21:51:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, still not the first one :/
21:51:32 <fizzie> Entry point is whatever the ELF e_entry says. I thought it was _start usually, but that did not seem to be the case.
21:51:59 <fizzie> You could break at the entry point address; readelf -a foo | grep -i entry gives you that. Probably objdump too.
21:52:11 <AnMaster> 0x403ad0
21:52:24 <AnMaster> err
21:52:26 <fizzie> Just break *0x403ad0, then.
21:52:28 <AnMaster> didn't work either
21:52:39 <AnMaster> oh wait
21:52:40 <AnMaster> the *
21:52:42 <AnMaster> missed that
21:52:48 <AnMaster> ah yes that works
21:52:48 <fizzie> Yes, it's an address, not a function.
21:52:52 <AnMaster> Breakpoint 1, 0x0000000000403ad0 in _start ()
21:53:15 <fizzie> Seems like it's in _start. I tried to "break _start", but *that* didn't work; maybe strip strips out that symbol.
21:53:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, if that happened why would it show _start there?
21:53:47 <fizzie> I doubt your binary is stripped?
21:53:50 <ehird> I should write a decent WM in this VM
21:53:51 <fizzie> The one I tried it on was.
21:53:52 <AnMaster> ah yes break _start works
21:53:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, no -g either though
21:54:18 <fizzie> Yes, I just happened across an actually strip-stripped binary.
21:54:22 <AnMaster> ehird, install plan9port!
21:54:26 <AnMaster> ;P
21:54:34 <ehird> AnMaster: nah; rio isn't quite right.
21:54:48 <AnMaster> ehird, hm it is one of the better ones though
21:54:59 <ehird> Mhm.
21:55:18 <AnMaster> _start+67 to _start+79 is all nop
21:55:20 <AnMaster> wonder why
21:55:20 <AnMaster> heh
21:55:26 <fizzie> Still, _start does not have to be the absolute first instruction executed, since the dynamic loader could run some _init blocks in any dynamic libs you refer to, while loading them.
21:55:29 <ehird> AnMaster: padding yo.
21:55:59 <AnMaster> 13 bytes of it yes..
21:56:51 <AnMaster> it seems a bit extreme, why use 13 separate nops, usually on x86 is that you try to fill using the largest fast nops
21:56:59 <ehird> fast nops
21:57:00 <AnMaster> even if it isn't the classical xchg ax,ax
21:57:01 <ehird> yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
21:57:14 <fizzie> It's not like those nops are ever executed, you know.
21:57:16 <AnMaster> ehird, err that actually make sense
21:57:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh?
21:57:27 <SimonRC> I thought 0x80 was nop?
21:57:31 <fizzie> At least here there's a retq immediately before them.
21:57:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, not here
21:57:49 <ehird> Why do non-osx OSes have an obsession with opening shit maximized?
21:57:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, <_start+62>: add $0x8,%rsp is the line in front of them
21:58:01 <ehird> I don't want a maximized window. Text is too long. It blocks out other stuff. Stop it!
21:58:04 <AnMaster> ehird, never happened for me on linux...
21:58:15 <ehird> AnMaster: I clicked Firefox and got a maximimzed window.
21:58:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, how would I break in the first instruction in the dynamic linker then?
21:58:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, because what I want is "really really first"
21:58:40 <SimonRC> oh, of course it's 0x90, http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/nop-nop-nop-nop-nop
21:58:44 <fizzie> I have a retq after that line. Still, I doubt they are executed anyway, there's the callq *%rax which makes it go away.
21:58:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, after OS hands off to user space
21:58:58 <ehird> SimonRC: <3 eler
21:59:08 <AnMaster> hm static maybe
21:59:10 <ehird> AnMaster: make your own elf binary
21:59:35 <ehird> this "Install/Remove" package manager gui is nice. It installs non-app stuff too.
22:00:28 <fizzie> The _init blocks of libs are part of the ELF loading, so I'm not quite sure where you could break; basically you'd have to catch the thing before your code is even loaded.
22:00:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes...
22:01:22 <AnMaster> Entry point address: 0x4001d0
22:01:25 <AnMaster> I did a break on that
22:01:30 <AnMaster> yet it was never reached
22:01:33 <AnMaster> in a static binary
22:01:35 <AnMaster> what on earth
22:02:22 <fizzie> And here I have a retq after that add $0x8. Really, I thought that nop-padding was just to make the next function (since what's after the nops really looks like a function prologue) start at a 16-byte offset. I don't really think __libc_start_main is going to return, anyway.
22:02:34 <AnMaster> (gdb) help checkpoint
22:02:35 <AnMaster> Fork a duplicate process (experimental).
22:02:35 <AnMaster> huh
22:02:48 * AnMaster was looking at help obscure in gdb
22:03:30 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:05:44 <fizzie> There are some reasons why "break _start" might not work *if* you have debugging symbols. (Basically it tries to be too clever and break after the function prologue, but _start doesn't have one; but if there are no debugging symbols, it just puts a breakpoint at the address of the global _start symbol.)
22:06:12 <fizzie> (But that was from a 2004 mailing-list post, they might've sensiblized that already.)
22:07:05 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
22:07:27 <AnMaster> $ readelf -a hello | grep -i entry
22:07:27 <AnMaster> Entry point address: 0x4001d0
22:07:30 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
22:07:31 <AnMaster> (gdb) r
22:07:31 <AnMaster> Starting program: /home/arvid/tmp/hello
22:07:31 <AnMaster> (no debugging symbols found)
22:07:31 <AnMaster> Program exited with code 0360.
22:07:34 <AnMaster> huh
22:07:44 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:08:01 <AnMaster> it just isn't ever hit
22:09:06 <fizzie> Yes, apparently not. That's rather strange.
22:09:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, I can break on main though
22:09:47 <fizzie> That should, after all, be the simplest case. It just does the ELF-loading and is supposed to jump to _start there.
22:09:49 <AnMaster> and end up a bit later
22:10:14 <AnMaster> Dump of assembler code for function main:
22:10:14 <AnMaster> 0x00000000004002b4 <main+0>: push %rbp
22:10:14 <AnMaster> 0x00000000004002b5 <main+1>: mov %rsp,%rbp
22:10:14 <AnMaster> 0x00000000004002b8 <main+4>: mov $0x0,%eax
22:10:14 <AnMaster> 0x00000000004002bd <main+9>: leaveq
22:10:15 <AnMaster> 0x00000000004002be <main+10>: retq
22:10:33 <AnMaster> seems a bit useless to do those extra moves
22:10:37 <AnMaster> for "return 0;
22:10:42 <AnMaster> and mov 0?
22:10:47 <AnMaster> oh no -O
22:10:49 <AnMaster> right
22:10:54 <AnMaster> -O3 is more sensible:
22:10:58 <AnMaster> Dump of assembler code for function main:
22:10:58 <AnMaster> 0x00000000004002c0 <main+0>: xor %eax,%eax
22:10:58 <AnMaster> 0x00000000004002c2 <main+2>: retq
22:11:28 <fizzie> Hmm.
22:11:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, breaking on 0x4001d2 works...
22:11:44 <fizzie> Here breaking at address _start+2 works even for a statically linked...
22:11:51 <AnMaster> as in the second instruction in _start
22:11:54 <AnMaster> ah you found it too
22:11:56 <fizzie> Yes. I was just saying the same thing.
22:12:41 <fizzie> Rather strange. It might be even that gdb feature of ignoring a breakpoint on the first executed instruction, to make it possible to "cont" past breakpoints without disabling them.
22:12:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, err what?
22:13:03 <AnMaster> how would that work
22:13:23 <AnMaster> cs 0x33 51
22:13:24 <AnMaster> ss 0x2b 43
22:13:32 <AnMaster> wait, code segment isn't null?
22:13:34 <AnMaster> huh
22:13:37 <fizzie> That's what it does. If you are at a breakpoint, and say "cont", logically it would hit that same breakpoint, since that's what it's going to execute.
22:13:52 <AnMaster> hm ok
22:14:27 <fizzie> That's even in GDB manual: "It is not necessary to delete a breakpoint to proceed past it. GDB automatically ignores breakpoints on the first instruction to be executed when you continue execution without changing the execution address."
22:14:31 <AnMaster> 0x00000000004001d0 <_start+0>: xor %ebp,%ebp
22:14:40 <AnMaster> so I wonder what %ebp was before
22:14:41 <AnMaster> :/
22:15:11 <AnMaster> actually doesn't gdb support patching the memory image or something it might be possible to insert a nop...
22:15:30 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit").
22:15:58 <fizzie> (gdb) catch start
22:15:58 <fizzie> Catch of start not yet implemented
22:16:03 <fizzie> Heh, I thought that might work.
22:16:09 <fizzie> "catch start - any processes, just after creation"
22:16:15 <AnMaster> heh
22:16:27 <AnMaster> Catch of exit not yet implemented
22:16:28 <AnMaster> too
22:16:34 <fizzie> "catch of library loads not yet implemented on this platform". "Catch of thread_start not yet implemented".
22:16:39 <fizzie> Someone's been lazy.
22:16:52 <AnMaster> Catch of signal not yet implemented
22:16:55 <AnMaster> what is this? A joke?
22:17:51 <fizzie> The manual (I'm not sure which version this is for, since I hit it with google) just lists C++ exceptions and exec/fork/vfork for catching.
22:18:15 <fizzie> And load, but "This is currently only available for HP-UX."
22:18:25 <AnMaster> eh
22:18:27 <AnMaster> heh*
22:18:31 <fizzie> Obviously not a very popular feature.
22:18:55 <SimonRC> AnMaster: why do you want to stop so early in a process?
22:19:02 <AnMaster> SimonRC, I wanted to find out the full register and stack state when OS hands off to user space
22:19:07 <SimonRC> ahh
22:19:13 <AnMaster> and heap too
22:19:23 <SimonRC> I assume TFM isn't very helpful in this case
22:19:32 <AnMaster> SimonRC, which one?
22:19:41 <SimonRC> hmm
22:19:45 <SimonRC> kernel docs?
22:19:50 <AnMaster> anyway I know all but ebp now I think
22:19:52 <SimonRC> spec of your executable format?
22:20:08 <AnMaster> so I'll just need to modify the binary to have a nop first in start
22:20:11 <AnMaster> that I can break on
22:20:35 <fizzie> Some of those values might be rather variable, though.
22:20:38 <AnMaster> anyone knows a machine code editor that isn't a hex editor but something more asm-y
22:20:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, most are 0x0 it seems
22:20:51 <fizzie> There was one ELF editor, but I forgot it.
22:21:16 <fizzie> Oh, right, http://hte.sourceforge.net/
22:21:24 <fizzie> It's a very silly-looking, based on screenshots.
22:21:30 <SimonRC> DEBUG.COM?
22:21:48 <fizzie> Or should I say, retro.
22:21:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, for windows?
22:22:03 <AnMaster> actually there is app-editors/hteditor here...
22:22:12 <fizzie> Well, there are sources.
22:22:51 <AnMaster> web page has 2.0.13.. package manager has 2.0.14
22:22:53 <AnMaster> strange
22:23:06 <AnMaster> http://elfsh.segfault.net/ ?
22:23:24 <AnMaster> actually link is broken
22:23:35 <AnMaster> was dev-util/elfsh "scripting language to modify ELF binaries"
22:23:41 <fizzie> http://hte.sourceforge.net/downloads.html has up to 2.0.16.
22:23:45 <fizzie> Who knows.
22:24:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, it has an X useflag here
22:24:17 * AnMaster wonders
22:24:21 <fizzie> Anyway, since you just need that one nop there, I'd just use a hex editor. It's not like you're going to make a workflow of this stuff.
22:24:37 <AnMaster> it passes the strange thing "--enable-x11-textmode"
22:24:39 <AnMaster> to configure
22:25:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, it would be useful in general though
22:25:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, wonder how to find file offset btw
22:25:56 <AnMaster> is it same?
22:32:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is an _init in the static binary...
22:34:24 <fizzie> I think _start is the first, anyway. And you could figure the file offset from the readelf output with a subtraction or two, or just look for those bytes.
22:34:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, using ht was easier :)
22:36:29 <AnMaster> rsp 0x7fff910b2660 0x7fff910b2660
22:36:35 <AnMaster> rsp is stack pointer right?
22:36:40 <fizzie> Yes.
22:37:29 <fizzie> For my elf file, entry point address 0x400190 and first program header offset 0 and VirtAddr 0x400000, which would imply that the entry point is in the file at offset 0x190.
22:37:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, apart from rsp all seems to have fixed values. And Linux randomises stack position, so not odd.
22:37:34 <AnMaster> FireFly, oh btw: r11 0x200 512
22:37:37 <AnMaster> that is always that
22:37:45 <AnMaster> otherwise all GPR are 0
22:37:46 <FireFly> fizzie*
22:37:55 <AnMaster> ah right
22:37:57 <FireFly> :P
22:38:23 <fizzie> Well, I have a similar problem now, as "an<tab>" extends to andreou; it used to do AnMaster.
22:38:24 <FireFly> I'm in ur channel stealin' ur autocompletion
22:38:43 <AnMaster> see
22:39:01 <AnMaster> well I guess FireFly and andreou just have to live with it
22:39:02 <AnMaster> :)
22:39:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, and you are right, init is called from _start, but _init calls back into _start(?)
22:40:01 <AnMaster> Dump of assembler code for function _init:
22:40:01 <AnMaster> 0x00000000004001b0 <_init+0>: sub $0x8,%rsp
22:40:01 <AnMaster> 0x00000000004001b4 <_init+4>: callq 0x4001fc <_start+44>
22:40:01 <AnMaster> 0x00000000004001b9 <_init+9>: callq 0x400270 <_start+160>
22:40:01 <AnMaster> 0x00000000004001be <_init+14>: callq 0x45e2e0
22:40:02 <AnMaster> 0x00000000004001c3 <_init+19>: add $0x8,%rsp
22:40:04 <AnMaster> 0x00000000004001c7 <_init+23>: retq
22:40:21 <AnMaster> huh
22:40:29 <AnMaster> (gdb) bt
22:40:29 <AnMaster> #0 0x00000000004001b0 in _init ()
22:40:29 <AnMaster> #1 0x00000000004008a4 in __libc_csu_init ()
22:40:29 <AnMaster> #2 0x000000000040040f in __libc_start_main ()
22:40:29 <AnMaster> #3 0x00000000004001f9 in _start ()
22:40:30 <AnMaster> btw
22:40:58 <AnMaster> what on earth is stdio stuff doing in this binary, I don't even include any header
22:41:00 <fizzie> Well, there's no stack frame for _start, since it's not a function.
22:41:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, true
22:42:08 <AnMaster> what is the st0 register in info all-registers
22:42:19 <AnMaster> I don't remember any st registers
22:43:11 <fizzie> The only thing I can think of is the x87 stack-thing, which I really am not familiar with.
22:43:37 <AnMaster> isn't that fpr0 and such?
22:43:44 <AnMaster> at least in amd docs it is
22:44:59 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving").
22:45:00 <fizzie> STn is the assembly mnemonic for it. Maybe. I can't really be sure.
22:45:08 <AnMaster> hm
22:45:16 <AnMaster> how do you set a register in gdb btw
22:45:25 <AnMaster> also how on earth does gdb find this out I'd like to knopw
22:45:28 <AnMaster> know*
22:45:36 <AnMaster> debuggers are even more black magic than compilers...
22:45:41 <fizzie> I used to know register-setting.
22:46:04 <fizzie> Anyway, I guess gdb on linux just uses the ptrace thing.
22:46:13 <fizzie> PTRACE_GETREGS to get registers and so on.
22:46:23 <AnMaster> ok
22:46:27 <AnMaster> still black magic
22:46:32 <AnMaster> just now it is in kernel
22:46:37 <AnMaster> (where it belongs)
22:47:01 <fizzie> "set $reg = x" might work.
22:47:02 <AnMaster> (gdb) help duel
22:47:03 <AnMaster> Evaluate Duel expressions. Duel is a very high level debugging language.
22:47:03 <AnMaster> "dl help" for help.
22:47:03 <AnMaster> huh
22:47:05 <AnMaster> interesting
22:47:24 <AnMaster> an embedded scripting language hidden in gdb
22:48:18 <SimonRC> I never knew about that
22:48:55 <fizzie> Yes, "set $reg = x"; and for simd-style registers it's things like "set $xmm1.v4_int32 = {1, 2, 3, 4}"; it pretends those are structs.
22:49:18 <AnMaster> heh
22:49:50 <fizzie> Or maybe more like an union in this case.
22:50:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, yep st0 behaves like x87 definitely
22:50:08 <AnMaster> xmm15 {v4_float = {0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0}, v2_double = {0x0, 0x0}, v16_int8 = {0x0 <repeats 16 times>}, v8_int16 = {0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0,
22:50:08 <AnMaster> 0x0}, v4_int32 = {0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0}, v2_int64 = {0x0, 0x0}, uint128 = 0x00000000000000000000000000000000}
22:50:11 <AnMaster> like that you mean?
22:50:33 <fizzie> Yes. I guess it's more union-like, in that if you mangle one of those, all the others change too.
22:51:32 <AnMaster> I know floating point and mmx registers are layered, but there is no place showing them as mmx registers hm
22:51:44 <AnMaster> as in a useful format when debugging mmx
22:52:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, irritating that gdb doesn't use the standard names for the registers
22:52:55 <AnMaster> I guess fctrl is what amd calls fcw
22:53:04 <AnMaster> fstat being fsw
22:53:05 <AnMaster> maybe
22:53:21 <AnMaster> FireFly, can you dump a register as a bit pattern in gdb...
22:53:31 <FireFly> Nope :D
22:58:01 <fizzie> That hex list in "info registers/all-registers" is probably rather close to a bit pattern.
22:58:15 <fizzie> It gives "(raw 0x00000000000000000000)" for stX regs too.
22:58:48 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:59:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, I wanted it for fctrl register
22:59:12 <AnMaster> I guess I could use erl to do it
22:59:26 <AnMaster> btw how can you do it with bc?
22:59:31 <AnMaster> someone said you could
22:59:34 <fizzie> Well, uh, "fctrl 0x37f 895"; isn't that 0x37f pretty close? 0b001101111111.
22:59:53 <AnMaster> I can't work that out in my head
22:59:54 <AnMaster> sorry
22:59:54 <fizzie> ibase=16
22:59:54 <fizzie> obase=2
22:59:54 <fizzie> 37F
22:59:54 <fizzie> 1101111111
23:00:56 <fizzie> With bc you just have to beware that the number you give as "obase" is given in base-ibase, so "ibase=2"+"obase=16" is not a good idea, you want "obase=16"+"ibase=2" instead. Or alternatively "ibase=2"+"obase=10000", but maybe that's slightly more difficult.
23:01:29 <AnMaster> err
23:01:33 <AnMaster> which way is that word
23:01:39 <AnMaster> it doesn't make sense either way
23:01:46 <AnMaster> reserved bits at 1 and some at 0?
23:02:22 <AnMaster> wait maybe it makes more sense when padded to 16 bits..
23:02:34 <AnMaster> how do you do that in bc fizzie?
23:02:38 <AnMaster> pad to 16 bits I mean
23:02:49 <fizzie> You don't. Just imagine there are zeroes in front.
23:03:39 <AnMaster> 1> io:format("~16.2.0B~n", [16#37f]).
23:03:39 <AnMaster> 0000001101111111
23:03:42 <AnMaster> lovely
23:05:07 <SimonRC> nothing like a few tildes and hashes to make your day nicer
23:06:45 <AnMaster> SimonRC, um ~ means same as % in C format strings basically
23:06:54 <AnMaster> and 16# means 0x
23:06:59 <AnMaster> you can use any number in front
23:07:06 <AnMaster> like 5# to use base 5
23:07:10 <AnMaster> 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
23:07:10 <AnMaster> R R R Y R R P P R R P U O Z D I
23:07:10 <AnMaster> E E E C C C C E E M M M M M M
23:07:10 <AnMaster> S S S S S
23:07:11 <AnMaster> hm
23:07:15 <AnMaster> that doesn't quite make sense
23:07:21 <AnMaster> (RES == reserved)
23:07:47 <AnMaster> why is one reserved bit 1?
23:08:27 <fizzie> unpack('B16', pack('n', 0x37f)) would be a reasonable Perl version. Or alternatively sprintf "%016b", 0x37f, that's even simpler. I wonder if there's a sensible Perl REPL, though.
23:09:23 <AnMaster> "<fizzie> [...] I wonder if there's a sensible Perl [...]" <-- nice misquoting :D
23:09:52 <fizzie> The other way around you'd get all RES bits as 1, though?
23:10:18 <oerjan> fizzie: my thought exactly
23:10:24 <fizzie> I have no idea what any of those meaningful bits are, though.
23:10:52 <AnMaster> it would be rather strange to start with Y set to 1 I think
23:11:00 <AnMaster> it is 80287 compat...
23:11:06 <fizzie> Y ask Y.
23:11:31 <AnMaster> ??
23:11:55 <AnMaster> actually Y is ignored even in virtual 80whatever mode it seems nowdays heh
23:11:57 <fizzie> Just a bit of free-association. It's "why ask why".
23:12:44 <AnMaster> 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
23:12:44 <AnMaster> R R R Y R R P P R R P U O Z D I
23:12:44 <AnMaster> E E E C C C C E E M M M M M M
23:12:44 <AnMaster> S S S S S
23:12:44 <AnMaster> hm
23:12:50 * AnMaster wonders if that make mroe sense
23:13:24 <AnMaster> hm
23:13:36 <AnMaster> then RC and PC are are non-default values
23:13:40 <ehird> I wonder if there's a sensible Perl REPL, though.
23:13:43 <ehird> perl -de0
23:13:54 <ehird> or devel::repl or w/e
23:14:34 <AnMaster> so
23:15:07 <AnMaster> a PC if 01 is invalid (thus we can't read it sub-backwards), a PC of 10 means double precision, 00 single, 11 long double
23:15:12 <AnMaster> long double is (afaik) default
23:15:56 <AnMaster> no it doesn't make sense that way FireFly
23:15:57 <AnMaster> err
23:15:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, ^
23:16:01 <AnMaster> I just checked
23:16:56 <fizzie> Well, then it must be something else.
23:17:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, I checked the effects of RC, and it only matches the actual rounding mode when it is set as I read it first time
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23:19:58 <ehird> Hmm, `perl -mstrict -wde0` + line editing + prepends "p " in front of all lines would make a good perl repl.
23:20:08 <ehird> Well, prepends it in front of all non-perldebug commands.
23:21:03 <SimonRC> idea: ELPR -- the easy-looking perl repl
23:21:06 <SimonRC> ;-)
23:21:52 <SimonRC> coz we need moar anagrams
23:21:53 <fizzie> LEPR; the Perl REPL whose body parts fall off.
23:22:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, that's worse than oerjan
23:24:03 <fizzie> It was freely paraphrasing a Finnish radio-comedy-parody-show-thing. They once did a parody of a car-related program, and the final words were something like "and next week, we're reviewing Fiat Lepra, the car whose parts fall off".
23:25:13 <fizzie> According to wikipedia, leprosy doesn't even cause off-falling body parts, but...
23:26:16 <oerjan> well technically the car parts would probably fall off because the view out is so lousy you cannot avoid bumping into things
23:26:19 <ehird> Ubuntu 9.10 seems quite nice once configured.
23:28:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, uh
23:28:04 <AnMaster> what?
23:28:45 <oerjan> AnMaster: that was the closest analogy i could think of
23:29:19 <oerjan> although it's switching vision with touch sense
23:30:29 <ehird> "You see, because Tom's a nutcase,"
23:30:55 <AnMaster> ehird, uh?
23:31:00 <AnMaster> also... night
23:43:24 <ehird> James Lyon:
23:43:25 <ehird> He has been employed at Microsoft since 1996 and has worked on Exchange Server, SQL Server, COM, and Microsoft Transaction Server. Most recently Jimbo was instrumental in designing, building, and shipping Windows Home Server Computer Backup.
23:43:28 <ehird> D:
23:47:57 <ehird> Open angle bracket close angle bracket exclamation mark asterisk quote octothorpe
23:47:57 <ehird> Caret at-sign backtick dollar dollar hyphen
23:47:59 <ehird> Exclamation mark asterisk single quote dollar underscore
23:48:01 <ehird> Parcent asterisk open angle bracket close angle bracket octothorpe four
23:48:03 <ehird> Ampersand close parenthesis period period forward slash
23:48:05 <ehird> Bar open curly brace tilde tilde SYSTEM HALTED
23:51:55 <SimonRC> ISTR there is a better pronunciation
23:52:04 <SimonRC> and seriously, "octothorpe"?
23:52:09 <SimonRC> why not "hash"?
23:52:31 <ehird> SimonRC: My pronounciation is a joke; doing it precisely to ruin the poem
23:52:35 <ehird> And because octothorpe is correct.
23:52:46 <ehird> "hash" is locale-centric.
23:53:52 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:54:13 <ehird> 'Helvetica is a Microsoft font.'
23:54:14 <ehird> WA
23:54:14 <ehird> T
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