←2009-04-04 2009-04-05 2009-04-06→ ↑2009 ↑all
00:01:38 <ehird> 22:44 AnMaster_ipv6: but bzr don't do the confusing thing that git does where you switch between branches
00:01:42 <ehird> how .. confusing?
00:03:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> back
00:03:57 <ehird> ALSO
00:03:58 <ehird> http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/S09806763
00:03:59 <ehird> best desk ever
00:04:01 <ehird> have I said that?
00:04:08 <ehird> specifically
00:04:12 <ehird> white w/ T-leg
00:04:17 <ehird> bring js
00:04:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, ?
00:04:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> doesn't look so good
00:04:34 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: white w/ t-leg.
00:04:39 <AnMaster_ipv6> and what do you mean bring js
00:04:42 <ehird> choose those and the awesome unfolds
00:04:49 <ehird> and because you need JS to select those
00:04:52 <ehird> so the images change
00:04:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> yes right
00:05:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> but how is that awesome
00:05:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> I fail to see how
00:05:11 <ehird> how is it not
00:05:17 <ehird> it's everything you need in a desk
00:05:21 <ehird> as minimal as possible
00:05:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, drawers?
00:05:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> I needs lots of those
00:05:30 <ehird> who needs drawers on a desk?
00:05:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> me
00:05:37 <ehird> That's no desk.
00:05:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> ...
00:05:52 <ehird> Use standalone drawers.
00:05:57 <ehird> A desk is for putting things on.
00:06:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> use the drawers luke
00:06:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> would have fitted "<ehird> That's no desk." better
00:06:53 <oklopol> these drawers you speak of
00:07:01 <oklopol> what would they be drawing
00:07:02 <fizzie> ehird: Coincidentally, we have those desks exclusively (80x60+120x60 combinerated for me to a single two-meter-desk with six legs, a single 120x60 for the wife); they are white, although with the A-leg. I don't really remember the justifications for leg-selecting, but I don't have a problem with that either.
00:07:24 <ehird> See, the almighty fizzie uses the Ultimate Desk.
00:07:39 <ehird> fizzie: Oh btw
00:07:41 <ehird> Length: 120 cm
00:07:41 <ehird> Width: 80 cm
00:07:42 <fizzie> But with the wrong legs!
00:07:45 <ehird> what the fuck does that mean
00:07:52 <ehird> what is the difference between length and width
00:08:00 <fizzie> The other is longer. :p
00:08:08 <ehird> Yes but which applies and what
00:08:28 <fizzie> Well, both. They sell the desk parts in sizes 80x60, 120x60 and 120x80.
00:08:40 <fizzie> For that particular thing in the link, it's probably the 120x80 version.
00:08:50 <ehird> fizzie:
00:08:52 <oklopol> you need to apply the symmetry theorem from table theory
00:08:53 <ehird> Assembled size
00:08:53 <ehird> Length: 120 cm
00:08:55 <ehird> Width: 80 cm
00:08:57 <ehird> Min. height: 60 cm
00:08:59 <ehird> Max. height: 90 cm
00:09:01 <ehird> Thickness: 2 cm
00:09:03 <ehird> That looks very much like one measurement set to me.
00:09:06 <ehird> Of one object.
00:09:27 <fizzie> Well, yes. It's the 120x80 table. So?
00:09:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> <oklopol> you need to apply the symmetry theorem from table theory <--- :D
00:09:37 <ehird> fizzie: 120x80, what two dimensions are these?
00:09:49 <ehird> I mean, height, width, thickness are all specified, so wtf is length?
00:09:53 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, look at pic, what is reasonable
00:10:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> maybe it between left and right
00:10:08 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: "Width: 80cm"
00:10:09 <fizzie> The two dimensions of the actual table plate are "width" and "length".
00:10:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, exactly
00:10:20 <ehird> fizzie: so it's 120cm deep?
00:10:30 <ehird> http://www.ikea.com/PIAimages/21139_PE106138_S4.jpg ← then this is the longest fuckin' laptop ever
00:10:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, no that is the 80 xm...
00:10:39 <AnMaster_ipv6> cm*
00:10:41 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: what? that's "Width"
00:10:47 <ehird> "Width: 80 cm"
00:10:50 <ehird> since when does width mean depth
00:11:10 <fizzie> Width and length are the two dimensions of the table plate. It's completely up to you how you situate it.
00:11:18 <ehird> Oh.
00:11:21 <AnMaster_ipv6> exactly
00:11:23 <ehird> Well that's the silly.
00:11:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, are you intentionally dense?
00:11:42 <fizzie> The image actually looks more like it's from the 120x60 variant.
00:11:47 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: 'width' and 'length' seem very the equal to me.
00:11:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, it was crystal clear to me
00:12:11 <ehird> fizzie: so they make an 80x60 one? that'll be what I want, then
00:12:18 <ehird> This dip thing is only 80cm wide
00:12:30 * AnMaster_ipv6 has a desk from the 1930s
00:12:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> very solid
00:12:36 <AnMaster_ipv6> and heavy
00:12:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> but works well
00:12:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> and looks nice
00:12:53 <oklopol> pix
00:13:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, maybe tomorrow, if I get around to cleaning up the desk
00:13:15 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Yes, well, I have special requirements (TM). Because I am short, for instance, I need it low down enough that I can see the monitor but still have the keyboard/mous at a comfortable level
00:13:16 <ehird> e
00:13:18 <fizzie> ehird: The "More GALANT Desk System Products" -> "Table tops with frames" has the whole set. At least here the "a complete table" combinations actually listed there had a price exactly equal to sum of the parts.
00:13:24 <ehird> And it can only be 80cm wide due to space contraints.
00:13:28 <ehird> And I don't like frills.
00:13:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> I wish there was more space for the legs
00:13:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> though
00:13:38 <oklopol> ehird: how short are you
00:13:41 <ehird> In conclusion: http://www.ikea.com/PIAimages/17840_PE102272_S4.jpg FTW.
00:13:45 <ehird> oklopol: Um. Short. Very.
00:13:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> especially when using rudder pedals
00:13:51 <ehird> Like, I don't even know.
00:13:58 <ehird> Lemme check.
00:14:04 <oklopol> i will let you.
00:14:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, I'm rather tall. 188.4 cm iirc
00:14:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> or maybe it was .3
00:14:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> at the end
00:14:17 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: so 6 feet
00:14:17 <fizzie> I opted to hook two of http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/50035115 's to the underside of this two-metres-long table, too.
00:14:17 <AnMaster_ipv6> something like that anyway
00:14:22 <ehird> you're as tall as my dad, AnMaster_ipv6.
00:14:23 <ehird> :D
00:14:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, I'm using metric
00:14:31 <ehird> (he is my one and only standard for tallity.)
00:14:40 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: yes, well, I can't do metric for peoplesizes.
00:14:51 <fizzie> Misread "I can't do metric for pedophiles".
00:14:53 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, I can't do feet for peoplesizes
00:15:00 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: That's why I converted it for you
00:15:04 <oklopol> i'm like 180, but i'm kinda crouchy, and look more like 170
00:15:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, the dirt is in the eye of the beholder.
00:15:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, so how tall are you? In metric
00:15:30 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: I was chceking before you interrupted
00:15:31 <ehird>
00:15:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> k
00:16:08 <fizzie> ehird: The 120x60 table can be seen in http://zem.fi/~fis/kotikuvei/olohuone.jpg
00:16:14 <kerlo> ehird: alternatively, how tall are you in feet and inches. :-P
00:16:22 * kerlo prepares Google for a metric conversion
00:16:54 <kerlo> 129.54 centimeters.
00:17:07 <kerlo> Unfortunately, that number is probably wrong, seeing as how ehird hasn't actually told us how tall he is yet.
00:17:15 <fizzie> (There are other pictures there of this place in the same directory, although the file names are all in Finnish.)
00:17:27 <kerlo> 111.76 centimeters.
00:17:36 <kerlo> 91.44 centimeters.
00:17:38 <oklopol> fizzie: err, you're a cat?
00:17:53 <oklopol> what the fuck, never cared to mention that?
00:17:57 <kerlo> 71.12 centimeters.
00:17:59 <fizzie> oklopol: Yes, well, don't be a specieist.
00:18:30 <fizzie> oklopol: See how I've been locked out on the balcony? That's the sort of treatment I get around here.
00:18:37 <oklopol> being a lizard, i can't say i approve of cats.
00:18:38 <kerlo> Also, fizzie, very clever how you managed to take a picture of yourself from so far away.
00:18:56 <fizzie> kerlo: Telekinetics.
00:19:02 <oklopol> especially being locked on the balcony
00:19:51 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, well?
00:20:07 <ehird> ← I am 146cm = 4 feet 9 inches. And 32kg.
00:20:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, you used telekinetics to open the door then?
00:20:35 <oklopol> omg you're smaller than my gf
00:20:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> 146
00:20:45 <AnMaster_ipv6> that's like ... wow
00:20:48 <ehird> lol
00:21:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> I'm around 82 kg btw
00:21:07 <kerlo> That's 144.78 centimeters, or 4 feet and 9.48031496 inches.
00:21:10 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: No, it only works for controlling the camera.
00:21:10 <ehird> The first words of a few internet-friends I met in August '08 was "you're smaller than I expected".
00:21:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, ouch
00:21:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, oddly specific too
00:21:24 <ehird> http://zem.fi/~fis/kotikuvei/keittion_ikkuna.jpg ← finland is so pretty
00:22:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, you could see that in Sweden too
00:22:01 <fizzie> The name should be fi:"keittiön ikkuna" =~ en:"window in the kitchen", but I didn't dare to use ö in a file name.
00:22:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> just FYI
00:22:10 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Your language is ugly though.
00:22:12 <fizzie> The snow's pretty much gone now.
00:22:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, yeah but it doesn't look like a joke instead..
00:22:47 <fizzie> A traditional example of an ugly-sounding Finnish phrase is: "Älä rääkkää sitä kääkkää."
00:22:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> (no offence meant)
00:22:51 <ehird> http://zem.fi/~fis/kotikuvei/olohuone.jpg ← that desk is the pretty but the shape of this room dictates 80cm width
00:22:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, meaning?
00:22:59 <ehird> fizzie: no that's hot
00:23:00 <oklopol> älä rääkkää räkäkääkkää
00:23:10 <ehird> "do not torture that old goat"
00:23:14 <ehird> sayss google
00:23:21 <oklopol> käkkäränkkä vänkkää väärää määrää
00:23:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, translate
00:23:26 <fizzie> Yes, that's rather close. I'm not sure how to translate "kääkkä".
00:23:32 <ehird> anyway sweden is like the srs
00:23:36 <ehird> and finland is the jokes
00:23:45 <oklopol> *känkkäränkkä
00:23:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, oh yes, we are rather timid I guess
00:23:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, translate
00:23:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> ...
00:24:19 <oklopol> "älä rääkkää räkäkääkkää" would be "do not torture the old snot goat"
00:24:28 <fizzie> The counterpart (i.e. the beautiful Finnish phrase) is "alavilla mailla hallan vaara".
00:24:31 <AnMaster_ipv6> snot...<q>
00:24:36 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, what does that mean
00:24:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> or did you mean "snow"
00:24:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> or something
00:24:58 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: Snot is what comes out of your nose.
00:25:00 <oklopol> phlegm
00:25:02 <olsner> AnMaster_ipv6: snorget
00:25:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, translate
00:25:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> olsner, jaha
00:25:35 <oklopol> nasal sperm
00:25:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> ..
00:25:48 <oklopol> ..
00:25:53 <AnMaster_ipv6> ...
00:25:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> ....
00:26:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> ...
00:26:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> ...
00:26:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> ..
00:26:06 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: "risk of frost on low-lying areas" is one translation in the interwebs.
00:26:07 <oklopol> WHAT SERIES IS THIS
00:26:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, :D
00:26:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, tell me when you figured it out
00:26:27 <ehird> NASAL SPERM.
00:26:52 <oklopol> alivallimailan hillan viiru
00:27:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, "risk för frost på låglänta ytor" I think in Swedish
00:27:08 <oklopol> AnMaster_ipv6: figured what out
00:27:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> thought not sure about spelling of låglänta
00:27:10 <fizzie> Kanske.
00:27:17 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, <oklopol> WHAT SERIES IS THIS
00:27:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> that
00:27:28 <oklopol> ohh.
00:27:34 <olsner> låglänt? is that even a word?
00:27:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> olsner, dialektalt kanske?
00:27:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> I have heard it anyway
00:28:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> but maybe dialect yeah
00:28:16 <fizzie> Wiktionary "lowlands" just has translations "Dutch: laagland n" and a Serbian one.
00:28:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> I have heard låglänt or maybe låglent (but don't think so)
00:28:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> never seen it written
00:28:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> Results 1 - 10 of about 8,070 for låglänt. (0.12 seconds)
00:28:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> well
00:29:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> not unknown anyway
00:29:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> olsner, ^
00:29:10 <olsner> oklopol: google translate yields "Do not rääkkää räkäkääkkää"
00:29:18 <olsner> AnMaster_ipv6: ok :)
00:29:25 <oklopol> olsner: i translated it
00:29:40 <olsner> oklopol: you claim to have
00:29:42 <olsner> :)
00:29:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> "[PDF] Bebyggelse från äldre bronsålder i låglänt terräng - ww.arkeologiuv.se/publikationer/rapporter/vast/2008/rv2008_10.pdf
00:29:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> well
00:29:52 <oklopol> rääkkää is a pretty basic finnish word, and räkäkääkkää should be simple to decompose, google translate sucks.
00:29:53 <AnMaster_ipv6> stuff like that
00:29:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> sounds plausible
00:30:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> olsner, I'd say it exists
00:30:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> www*
00:30:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> btw
00:30:19 <AnMaster_ipv6> and add missing ending quote
00:30:43 <oklopol> need to go to sleep soon methinks
00:30:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> same meh
00:31:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> "Sanakirja.org - Käännökset haulle låglänt (ruotsi-suomi). Käännöspeli. Lähdekieli: Ruotsi." <-- what
00:31:19 <fizzie> olsner: Google Translate does know the infinitive form of "rääkkää", which is "rääkätä".
00:31:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> found when googling for låglänt
00:31:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> maybe fizzie can translate that
00:31:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> it looks like some dictionary
00:32:07 <fizzie> Uh... "Sanakirja.org - Translations for the search låglänt (ruotsi-suomi). Translation game. Source language: Swedish."
00:32:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> "Käännös. Adjektiivit. 1. alava. Sana kuuluu seuraaviin luokkiin: ..." too
00:32:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> from same
00:32:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, heh
00:32:23 <fizzie> Er, "ruotsi-suomi" being "Swedish-Finnish", forgot that part.
00:32:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> ah
00:32:42 <fizzie> "Translation. Adjectives. 1. low-lying. The word belongs to the following classes: ..."
00:32:52 * ehird unarchives 4gb
00:32:53 <fizzie> Well, I'm not sure if low-lying is the correct term.
00:32:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, "sanakirja" means anything?
00:33:09 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: "Dictionary".
00:33:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> ah
00:33:16 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: I just didn't want to mess the DNS name.
00:33:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, well there was "låglänt - Wikisanakirja" too
00:33:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> heh
00:44:18 <ehird> Hm.
00:44:44 <ehird> Perl golf challenge: Take two filenames, XOR the file contents together char-by-char.
00:45:00 <ehird> <> only uses the first arg I think :-(
00:45:16 <fizzie> <> will read both files, but I don't think you can tell where the files change.
00:45:34 <ehird> ah
00:45:37 <fizzie> There probably was some magic current-file variable, though.
00:47:19 -!- psygnisfive_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:48:30 <fizzie> Ah, you can use non-argument "eof" to determine when the file has closed. "perldoc -f eof" has an example. Not sure how golf-friendly that is.
00:48:49 <fizzie> I guess it would be reasonably short to change some sort of mode with that.
00:49:00 <ehird> at this point why not just slurp argvs
00:49:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> anti-golf: which is the most verbose programming language (in general, it can of course differ between tasks)
00:49:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> I'd say SQL is high up at least
00:49:40 <ehird> intercal or cobol
00:49:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, yes probably
00:50:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, intercal would be better for certain bitwise operations though :D
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01:02:11 <oklopol> glio glio bolf glo flomog
01:02:21 -!- oklopol has changed nick to gliopol.
01:02:24 <gliopol> o
01:02:24 <gliopol> o
01:02:24 <gliopol> o
01:02:24 <gliopol> o
01:02:30 <ehird> a butt
01:02:36 <gliopol> WHAT WHAT
01:02:47 <Slereah_> two butts
01:03:04 <gliopol> WHOOOOOSE BUTTS
01:03:14 <Slereah_> My butts
01:03:22 <Slereah_> I have two butts.
01:03:29 <gliopol> well how come you have both
01:04:06 <FireFly> Nighty ->
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01:18:04 <ehird> http://technically.us/spde/Fold ← this is neat.
01:36:17 <pikhq> Walmart: land of the absurdly odd bundles of Magic cards.
01:36:33 <pikhq> They sell packaged bundles which consist of a pack and some random cards...
01:36:47 <pikhq> I got cards from freaking Unlimited.
01:47:27 <ehird> Octothorpal.
01:55:38 <kerlo> Magic: that game where one of the main ways to improve is by paying a certain company.
01:56:01 <kerlo> It's very unique in that respect. Completely unlike any other trading card game or MMORPG.
02:23:17 <pikhq> -_-'
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10:16:11 <asiekierka> hi
10:16:19 <asiekierka> I'm trying to make a sorta-TV-channel again
10:16:20 <asiekierka> :/
10:17:43 <asiekierka> I even made a custom testcard
10:22:59 <Deewiant> Can you write a working 'cat' in DOBELA? I thought about it a bit and failed
10:26:09 <asiekierka> I could try
10:26:12 <asiekierka> i mean
10:26:13 <asiekierka> I can try
10:26:22 <asiekierka> Why? Did you finish it?
10:26:30 <asiekierka> (the interpreter)
10:27:06 <Deewiant> It's at the point that it can run 'Hello!' (after I fixed the one on the wiki), now I'd like a more sophisticated test program :-P
10:28:22 <asiekierka> I think we have to clarify the outputting a bit more
10:28:37 <asiekierka> If there is a COMPLETE BYTE (8 bits) to output, it outputs it, and outputs all complete bytes
10:28:51 <asiekierka> If there are any bits left (less than 8), it ignores them
10:28:57 <Deewiant> Meh, that'd make it too easy :-P
10:29:07 <asiekierka> Otherwise, I don't know
10:29:18 <Deewiant> I think the more basic issue is that I don't see a way of doing 'do X every 8 iterations'
10:29:27 <asiekierka> neither do I
10:29:42 <asiekierka> Except if we do a loop that takes 8 iterations
10:29:46 <asiekierka> which toggles the emission setting
10:29:49 <asiekierka> but that's too hard :P
10:29:57 <Deewiant> One thing that I thought of that might make it possible (and probably a lot of other things easier) is if we had a duplication instruction
10:30:04 <Deewiant> asiekierka: I tried that and failed
10:30:11 <Deewiant> Since the dot dies on hitting the generator
10:30:17 <Deewiant> And also when hitting the output
10:30:23 <Deewiant> With duplication it could be done
10:30:33 <Deewiant> (I think, at least.)
10:30:44 <Deewiant> Since you could then fork a dot to hit both the ^ and the :
10:30:44 <asiekierka> As in, when hit east or west, the same dot is sent north and south?
10:30:55 <asiekierka> Yeah
10:31:05 <Deewiant> Yes, and while we're at it, when hit north/south it's sent east/west
10:31:09 <asiekierka> yep
10:31:13 <asiekierka> It would be a + sign
10:31:15 <asiekierka> if it's not taken
10:31:20 <Deewiant> It isn't
10:31:20 <asiekierka> and no it's not
10:31:42 <asiekierka> :)
10:31:47 <asiekierka> Also, I wonder what to do with asievision
10:31:51 <asiekierka> ustream.tv/channels/asietv
10:32:05 <Deewiant> Maybe DOBELA's now a bit closer to 99% TC :-P
10:32:21 <asiekierka> Well, now it's 99.25% TC I think
10:32:22 <asiekierka> :)
10:32:44 <Deewiant> So can you write cat for me now? ;-)
10:32:50 <asiekierka> ...maybe
10:33:21 <Deewiant> I have a bunch of work to do today so I probably won't have time to look at it... no worries if it takes you a week :-P
10:37:39 <asiekierka> Well, we neet to hit two ^'s :)
10:37:41 <asiekierka> need*
10:37:53 <asiekierka> Why? ^ can output AND change the data of all generators
10:38:04 <Deewiant> You need more than one generator?
10:38:10 <asiekierka> i'm not sure
10:38:13 <asiekierka> I'm still thinking
10:39:05 <asiekierka> It should switch it in 2 cycles, but that's still not fast enough
10:39:13 <asiekierka> wait
10:39:14 <asiekierka> wait
10:39:15 <asiekierka> no
10:39:17 <asiekierka> it IS enough
10:39:26 <asiekierka> cuz a generator outputs every other cycle
10:39:36 <asiekierka> Wait, no, it'll be 3 cycles AFAIK
10:39:44 <Deewiant> Remember that : starts on the second cycle and _ on the first
10:39:48 <asiekierka> Yep
10:40:01 <asiekierka> So it requires 16 cycles for _ to output
10:40:02 <Deewiant> I was thinking that it might be easiest to start with
10:40:03 <Deewiant> __
10:40:03 <Deewiant> $$
10:40:15 <Deewiant> So you get a bit of input every cycle
10:40:21 <asiekierka> so 8 cycles
10:40:54 <asiekierka> And to make it 2 cycles, :+ doesn't need a space
10:40:55 <Deewiant> And then you need to hit a ^ at any multiple of 8
10:41:08 <asiekierka> So cycle 2: A dot gets output
10:41:14 <asiekierka> 3: Duplicated, hitting a wall
10:41:15 <asiekierka> 4: DUH!
10:41:30 <asiekierka> I think if it hits a generator or something directly in the same cycle as being output, both count
10:41:38 <asiekierka> So Cycle 2: A dot gets output AND duplicated
10:41:48 <asiekierka> cycle 3: Hits a wall and toggles the generator off
10:41:51 <asiekierka> Cycle 4: WIN!
10:42:13 <Deewiant> So what's the code?
10:42:18 <asiekierka> Not ready... yet
10:42:22 <asiekierka> In the meantine implement the +
10:42:34 <Deewiant> Like said, I don't have time today :-P
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10:42:45 <asiekierka> Oh
10:42:55 <Deewiant> You don't need to do it now if you don't feel like it
10:44:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> <asiekierka> Well, now it's 99.25% TC I think <-- does such a measure even make sense?
10:44:11 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Does DOBELA even make sense?
10:44:19 <AnMaster_ipv6> meh true
10:44:21 <asiekierka> :P
10:44:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> so this interpreter, where can it be found Deewiant
10:44:47 <Deewiant> It can not be found
10:44:51 <AnMaster_ipv6> oh ok
10:45:00 <Deewiant> It doesn't implement much of anything yet
10:45:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, <insert rant about cathedral vs the bazaar>
10:45:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> ;P
10:45:13 <Deewiant> If you really want it, I can put the binary up
10:45:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> meh
10:45:23 <asiekierka> Well, I think I did it
10:45:24 <Deewiant> It can only really run 'Hello world' though
10:45:25 <asiekierka> but remove the numbers
10:45:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> not really that interested
10:45:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> maybe when it reached 99.62% TC I'll want a look
10:46:09 <asiekierka> lol
10:46:13 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/zrKO1Q68.html - this is my idea
10:46:29 <Deewiant> I actually tried to think of a BF interpreter in DOBELA but then soon realized that I can't even implement cat :-P
10:46:37 <asiekierka> I think this one should work
10:46:43 <asiekierka> And it does not need to be a multiple of 8
10:46:46 <asiekierka> Why?
10:46:55 <asiekierka> You know, if there are 9 bits stored, 8 are output and 1 is left
10:47:01 <asiekierka> 19 bits - 16 are output and 3 are left
10:47:07 <asiekierka> So duh, why do you need a multiple of 8?
10:47:08 <Deewiant> asiekierka: I think it's better that partial bits are output
10:47:20 <asiekierka> Ok
10:47:21 <Deewiant> asiekierka: And as for 'why' — because that's what the specs currently say :-P
10:47:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> <Deewiant> asiekierka: I think it's better that partial bits are output <--- ‽
10:48:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> TURKEY BOMB‽
10:48:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> as in a third of a bit iirc
10:48:24 <Deewiant> s/partial/leftover/
10:48:27 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/Zo1qa570.html ok, I did it I think
10:48:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> ah
10:48:30 <Deewiant> Or s/bits/bytes/ whatever
10:48:34 <asiekierka> Now it should output every 8 cycles
10:48:42 <asiekierka> Well,
10:48:45 <asiekierka> I'm not sure but nah
10:48:54 <asiekierka> Should work IMO
10:49:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> afaik you can only output complete bytes on most systems
10:49:10 <asiekierka> Well, it fills the byte with 0's if it's partial
10:49:15 <asiekierka> :)
10:49:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> or read complete bytes
10:49:28 <Deewiant> asiekierka: By the way, a problem with collision: What happens after ..#
10:49:44 <asiekierka> What way are the dots going
10:49:48 <Deewiant> Both east
10:50:09 <asiekierka> Theoretically they should create a wall
10:50:15 <asiekierka> Cuz of the top-left scanning
10:50:21 <Deewiant> Not according to the current rules
10:50:24 <asiekierka> wait
10:50:25 <asiekierka> wait
10:50:31 <asiekierka> Well, ok
10:50:34 <Deewiant> asiekierka: Since '.. ' should be ' ..' next cycle
10:50:44 <asiekierka> As far as I remember, it does a collision if it can't be resolved
10:50:52 <Deewiant> But what happens there is that first the dot on the left moves so you have '.#' where there are two dots on the .
10:51:01 <asiekierka> So first cycle:
10:51:02 <Deewiant> Then the next dot turns but doesn't move
10:51:40 <Deewiant> So a wall gets created when the next dot finds out that it's standing on top of another dot?
10:51:52 <asiekierka> According to my rules, the first dot should stay in place, but the second hits the wall
10:52:19 <asiekierka> :P
10:52:22 <Deewiant> With top-left scanning the first dot should move first
10:52:28 <Deewiant> How would it know to stay in place
10:52:36 <asiekierka> By detecting the collision
10:52:53 <Deewiant> That'd make moving a single dot O(n) where n is the size of the program
10:52:58 <asiekierka> oh
10:53:00 <Deewiant> Since it potentially has to scan n dots
10:53:02 <Deewiant> ..........................#
10:53:13 <Deewiant> Yay, O(n^2) to move those dots
10:53:27 <Deewiant> And a pain in the ass to implement :-P
10:53:34 <asiekierka> So then, I think i'll go lazy and just make the dots create a wall
10:53:34 <asiekierka> :P
10:53:42 <asiekierka> Or there's another way
10:53:44 <asiekierka> maybe simpler
10:53:51 <Deewiant> And I guess this would be the same regardless of whether it's ,.# ,,# .,# ..#
10:53:52 <asiekierka> The first dot moves and the second bounces from the wall
10:53:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, only O(n^2) ?
10:53:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> meh
10:54:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> it isn't worth it if it isn't O(n!!)
10:54:16 <Deewiant> asiekierka: Bounces?
10:54:19 <asiekierka> as in
10:54:24 <asiekierka> moves according to the wall rules
10:54:24 <asiekierka> duh
10:54:37 <Deewiant> So you'd change how walls work?
10:54:41 <asiekierka> no
10:54:43 <Deewiant> Or only in that kind of case?
10:54:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> seems this lang is mostly special cases
10:54:57 <asiekierka> Well, i don't change anything
10:55:07 <asiekierka> Because the second dot moves according to the wall rules
10:55:11 <asiekierka> And the first dot moves
10:55:14 <Deewiant> No
10:55:21 <Deewiant> Because the wall rules are currently that the dot turns but doesn't move
10:55:30 <asiekierka> ...Huh?
10:55:42 <asiekierka> Oh
10:55:59 <asiekierka> Wait
10:56:10 <asiekierka> I change the rules to "turn and then move one space"
10:56:22 <Deewiant> Okay, then what about
10:56:24 <Deewiant> .
10:56:25 <Deewiant> ..
10:56:29 <Deewiant> Where the dot to the north is moving south
10:56:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, btw why haven't you implemented this lang yourself?
10:56:34 <Deewiant> And the others are going east
10:56:39 <Deewiant> I'm going to eat lunch ->
10:56:49 <asiekierka> Well, first the north dot moves south
10:56:52 <asiekierka> then it moves south again
10:57:02 <asiekierka> then the middle dot moves east
10:57:11 <asiekierka> then everything's normal
10:57:19 <asiekierka> Tada! I waste 3 cycles on a collision!
11:01:26 -!- asiekierka has set topic: topic appoppic http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D aproppotic *popaboom*.
11:03:43 <lifthrasiir> DOBELA looks interesting, though i'm not yet clear how complex program can be achieved
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11:06:59 <lifthrasiir> asiekierka: is there working cat program?
11:10:26 <Deewiant> asiekierka: So then collision detection is O(n) again :-/
11:13:52 <asiekierka> Deewiant: Nah, then just make every pair of these create a wall
11:14:01 <asiekierka> or whatever opposite-direction moving is handled
11:14:09 <Deewiant> So then
11:14:10 <Deewiant> .
11:14:11 <Deewiant> ..
11:14:13 <Deewiant> Becomes
11:14:16 <Deewiant>
11:14:18 <Deewiant> #.
11:14:20 <asiekierka> Yep
11:14:26 <Deewiant> That's easier :-)
11:14:40 <asiekierka> You know, DOBELA is all special exceptions OR extremely stupid ideas
11:14:53 <Deewiant> asiekierka: But do you still think walls mean turn+move instead of just turn?
11:15:27 <Deewiant> #
11:15:28 <Deewiant> #.#
11:15:29 <Deewiant> #
11:15:37 <Deewiant> That's an infinite loop in the interpreter then :-P
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11:17:16 <asiekierka> Deewiant: Then not, though I'd need to rework my engine then
11:17:20 <asiekierka> I think
11:17:31 <Deewiant> asiekierka: I think it's best to make it mean just turn
11:17:34 <asiekierka> yep
11:17:36 <asiekierka> So, uh
11:17:49 <asiekierka> I will need to rework my cat then
11:18:00 <Deewiant> Yes, I think so :-P
11:18:12 <asiekierka> Just make the second-duplicator loop double size
11:18:15 <asiekierka> er, double length
11:18:29 <Deewiant> I think the one that goes down from the first + fails
11:18:35 <asiekierka> Yep
11:18:38 <asiekierka> And it can't be fixed, sadly
11:18:47 <Deewiant> Yep: you'll need another generator
11:18:53 <Deewiant> Or something
11:18:58 <asiekierka> That wouldn't help either
11:19:02 <asiekierka> Well, it would
11:19:03 <asiekierka> actually
11:19:11 <asiekierka> :)
11:19:18 <Deewiant> :^
11:19:26 <Deewiant> Below the upper :
11:19:42 <Deewiant> Then the upper : needs just one + and some timing.
11:20:37 <asiekierka> I think I fixed it
11:22:33 <asiekierka> Wait, I need to think whether hitting ^ to restart generators on cycle 16 does make them work on cycle 16
11:22:55 <asiekierka> If not, I will need to remove the E near the rightmost ^
11:23:03 <asiekierka> (1-E are hex digits for counting the cycles
11:23:12 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/Obwqw853.html
11:23:29 <Deewiant> asiekierka: If they are more southeast, then yes
11:23:33 <Deewiant> Right?
11:24:39 <Deewiant> asiekierka: And btw, the dot that goes west from that + won't work like that: you have it turning first counterclockwise and then clockwise twice, but it should always turn counterclockwise
11:30:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> DOBELA Crescent
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11:31:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, asiekierka: seriously, DOBELA does seem to have too many obscure rules.
11:31:09 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: it's an esolang
11:31:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: It's his spec, not mine.
11:31:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> so I think the interpreter should be named that...
11:31:21 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: also, interesting nick
11:31:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> (for the benefit of ais): DOBELA Crescent
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11:38:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: I don't get the reference, FWIW.
11:38:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> btw, so far the only gcc option that actually seems to break cfunge is -ffast-math (which make DATE fail in mycology), not are make it faster, but no other ones in the optimising section of the manual seem to actually produce a broken program. I'm currently checking which exact option that -ffast-math enables it is that breaks cfunge...
11:38:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, Mornington Crescent...
11:38:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> obscure rules
11:39:19 <Deewiant> Found it on Wikipedia, never heard of it before.
11:39:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> what
11:39:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> it has been discussed several times in here
11:39:36 <AnMaster_ipv6> how could you miss it
11:39:44 <ais523> well, Deewiant isn't British, that's just about a small excuse for not having heard of Mornington Crescent
11:40:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, I never heard of it before it was mentioned in this channel, but it has been mentioned so often in here...
11:41:10 <ais523> mornington crescent's one of the best-known parts of ISIHAC
11:41:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: I find no mention in my logs since February.
11:41:21 <ais523> but there are others, such as the bit where they sing one song to the tune of another
11:41:24 <Deewiant> That doesn't count as 'often' then. :-P
11:41:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, check 2008
11:41:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Don't have them handy.
11:41:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, ISIHAC?
11:41:59 <ais523> "I'm Sorry, I Haven't A Clue"
11:42:04 <ais523> the name of a British radio program
11:42:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> nice name
11:42:15 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/irclogs/freenode/#esoteric$ grep -i mornington 200[3-8]* | wc -l
11:42:15 <fizzie> 9
11:42:22 <fizzie> I'm not sure either that this qualifies as "often".
11:42:32 <Deewiant> fizzie: Try crescent
11:43:48 <fizzie> Those 9 are at: 2006-06-15 18:20:08; 2008-06-15 00:40:26; 2008-06-18 00:00:07..00:02:23; 2008-07-03 18:54:28; 2008-12-15 19:21:32..19:21:46.
11:44:09 <fizzie> So it's been mentioned at about five occasions.
11:44:57 <fizzie> The set of "crescent" matches is equal, except with one addition: [2008-06-18 00:00:48] < tusho> #nomicton-crescent if anyone wants to try it
11:46:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> ok odd
11:46:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> -ffast-math breaks cfunge under gcc 4.1 but not 4.3 it seems
11:46:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> or maybe something else is going on
11:47:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm
11:47:54 <gliopol> wow
11:47:58 <gliopol> dobela discussion
11:48:01 <gliopol> awesome
11:48:11 -!- gliopol has changed nick to oklopol.
11:48:28 <ais523> oklopol: interesting nick you just changed from
11:48:31 <ais523> is there a story behind it
11:48:49 <oklopol> it's always either social blabber, your incomprehensible unix talk, or befunge
11:49:05 <oklopol> err
11:49:07 <oklopol> yes
11:49:11 <oklopol> i like glio
11:49:15 <oklopol> it's a nice word.
11:49:23 <oklopol> and
11:49:30 <fizzie> <oklopol> glio glio bolf glo flomog
11:49:30 <fizzie> * oklopol is now known as gliopol
11:49:33 <fizzie> For some values of "story".
11:49:36 <oklopol> it doesn't suffi...xify well
11:50:09 * oklopol takes a deeper look at dobela
11:50:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> uh uh
11:51:08 <asiekierka> Well, duh, I will fix it later
11:51:17 <asiekierka> I want to make a better esolang though
11:51:34 <fizzie> oklopol: When you gaze deep into dobela, the dobela gazes into you.
11:51:49 <fizzie> oklopol: You must face the dobela alone.
11:52:27 <asiekierka> Well, DOBELA was my first esolang
11:52:30 <asiekierka> And is
11:52:31 <asiekierka> :P
11:52:38 <asiekierka> I must make a better esolang one day
11:52:53 <asiekierka> Or just use Befunge
11:52:59 <oklopol> don't fix it too much, from the discussion above it seems it is currently the interesting kind of esolang, since no one knows it's whether it's tc
11:53:01 <oklopol> well
11:53:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> aha
11:53:20 <asiekierka> I mean
11:53:24 <asiekierka> I will fix my CATs
11:53:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> -mfpmath=sse,387 -ffast-math breaks on gcc 4.1.2
11:53:32 <oklopol> i mean for sure, usually you can tell by a glance
11:53:56 <oklopol> fizzie: i plan to, unless someone wants to share my monitor with me
11:55:04 <oklopol> and "do" is pronounced like the "do" in "don't" :D
11:55:15 <oklopol> 'the "do" in "don't"'
11:55:20 * oklopol finds funny.
11:55:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, what about slashes?
11:55:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> that is a really interesting one
11:55:41 * asiekierka notices hidden funny
11:55:42 <fizzie> "DOBELA -- putting the "do" back in "don't"."
11:55:46 <oklopol> (probably not intended,and probably not funny in any way)
11:55:50 * asiekierka laughs. Seriously.
11:56:16 <oklopol> AnMaster_ipv6: was slashes discussed last night?
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11:56:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, no
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11:58:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> interesting
11:58:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> GCC has an anti-inline option
11:58:21 <AnMaster_ipv6> -frtl-abstract-sequences
11:58:33 <asiekierka> I wonder what would my new esolang be like
11:58:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> it tries to find common code and abstract it out in a shared function
11:58:55 <oklopol> AnMaster_ipv6: well, i agree that's one of the gems; but i'm more interested in the fact something happened here :D
11:59:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, oh ok
11:59:17 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, befunge is nice though
11:59:54 <asiekierka> I need a language that will make some videos for me
11:59:57 <asiekierka> that's what I need
12:00:05 <asiekierka> but I'm afraid an interpreter will take a while to do
12:00:07 <oklopol> i'm not saying it's not
12:00:54 <oklopol> ".= turns into a =,", does that mean it moves :DD
12:01:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm
12:01:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> I should try to make a complete list of all gcc command line options
12:02:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> oooh interesting
12:02:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> there is a *doucmented* switch gcc --help=undocumented
12:02:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> wow
12:02:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> meh
12:02:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> some of those are documented in man page, how boring
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12:03:40 <oklopol> dobela is insane :D
12:04:38 <asiekierka> oklopol: I know
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12:09:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> GCC 4.3.2 --help -v supports some 770+ unique options
12:09:39 <AnMaster_ipv6> s/supports/list/
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12:10:19 <AnMaster_ipv6> a bit hard to count since some are listed like: -Wnormalized=<id|nfc|nfkc> Warn about non-normalised Unicode strings
12:10:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> while some are listed expanded
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12:10:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> --param l1-cache-size The size of L1 cache --param l1-cache-line-size The size of L1 cache line
12:10:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> and so on
12:10:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> (on different lines)
12:11:55 <oklopol> wait
12:12:05 <oklopol> didn't Deewiant say cat was impossible to implement
12:12:06 <AnMaster_ipv6> ?
12:12:23 <oklopol> i must have misunderstood something because there's a cat on the page
12:12:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, I think they were trying to add something to support it
12:13:22 <oklopol> hmmmmm right actually that's not a cat
12:13:28 <oklopol> just collects stuff on the queue
12:13:34 <oklopol> but
12:13:47 <oklopol> there's that rules that the dots can stop each other from moving
12:13:52 <oklopol> for a cycle
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12:14:01 <oklopol> so maybe you could have two generators
12:14:34 <oklopol> and as long as stuff came out the stdin, they'd always block the dots for one cycle, and the two generators' dots would collide
12:14:36 <oklopol> but
12:14:43 <oklopol> when eof was reached
12:14:54 <oklopol> they wouldn't collide, and a generator would be set on
12:15:10 <oklopol> and dots would start coming out, emptying the queue into stdout
12:15:32 <oklopol> well dunno, i should start reading my readings now
12:18:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, hm this requires that there isn't any delay in the input data right?
12:18:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> like a user typing slowly
12:19:07 <oklopol> i assume that delays the whole program
12:19:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, oh ok
12:19:22 <oklopol> otherwise it's trivially impossible to know when there's no input left
12:19:24 <oklopol> umm
12:19:25 <oklopol> actually
12:19:39 <oklopol> couldn't you just output the contents of the queue all the time
12:19:44 <oklopol> hmm.
12:20:01 <oklopol> well, maybe i'm fundamentally misunderstanding something
12:20:03 <oklopol> dunno
12:20:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> no idea either
12:20:30 <Deewiant> oklopol: You can't output every bit, you have to output every byte
12:20:51 <AnMaster_ipv6> I think it is wrong for esolangs to use blocking IO
12:20:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> almost all do
12:21:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> or maybe even all
12:21:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> how many esolangs have async IO?
12:21:19 <AnMaster_ipv6> anyone know a single such?
12:21:25 <oklopol> Deewiant: ohh
12:21:38 <oklopol> but, couldn't you still use the idea of waiting for eof?
12:22:55 <Deewiant> You can try, I couldn't figure out a way of getting it to work
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12:23:12 <ais523> just send a literal control-D when you reach the end of the file
12:23:17 <oklopol> hmm
12:23:19 <oklopol> oh
12:23:23 <oklopol> actually my idea doesn't work
12:23:35 <oklopol> there are both 1- and 2-dots
12:23:44 <oklopol> so clearly you cannot rely on that delaying behavior
12:23:54 <oklopol> because if one delays, the other is destroyed
12:24:12 <oklopol> and because there's no duplication, it's impossible to get any use out of
12:24:31 <oklopol> err
12:24:36 <oklopol> 0- and 1-dots maybe
12:24:39 <oklopol> but still
12:24:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, know any esolang with async IO?
12:25:02 <ais523> not offhand
12:25:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> possibly also uncomfortably parallel
12:25:12 <ais523> is there a Funge fingerprint for it
12:25:21 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, not that I know of
12:25:29 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL can simulate a select(), but you need to run multiple programs at once and use network connections
12:25:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, I guess you could do it in Feather though?
12:25:57 <ais523> Feather doesn't really define its I/O environment at all
12:26:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> oh ok
12:26:06 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, it is so hard to know...
12:26:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> :P
12:26:15 <ais523> it just uses abstract input/output streams, the implementation decides what they're connected to, if anything
12:27:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, with implementation defined extensions for sockets and such possibly?
12:28:05 <ais523> that would just be another input/output stream
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12:33:18 <asiekierka> I'm thinking about an esolang represented as lines
12:33:23 <asiekierka> on a 2D space
12:33:27 <asiekierka> wait
12:33:35 <asiekierka> well, the lines move to the right
12:33:49 <asiekierka> but they can go up and down and right, never back left
12:33:54 <asiekierka> like audio, sorta
12:34:44 <asiekierka> So basically, 2 variables: Angle and Length :P
12:34:54 <asiekierka> or Target Y and Length
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12:35:36 <asiekierka> It would be cool if it had a mechanical interpreter
12:35:42 <asiekierka> well, electromechanical
12:35:53 <asiekierka> or electronic, duhh
12:36:13 <lifthrasiir> asiekierka: there are angle-based graphical languages like Wierd, but i don't know any angle-and-length-based one
12:36:47 <asiekierka> well, it is angle and length of the line going at that angle
12:36:51 <asiekierka> and it's an array of these
12:37:22 <asiekierka> Well, this language can be interpreted only with a ruler and a protractor
12:37:30 <asiekierka> or a combined ruler/protractor
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12:38:13 <asiekierka> and written with a pen and a ruler and a protractor
12:38:35 <asiekierka> There's no I/O though
12:38:41 <asiekierka> except if you interpret the results yourself
12:39:24 <asiekierka> -5 to 5 degrees of angle: NOP for x milimetres
12:39:27 <asiekierka> where x is the length
12:40:01 <asiekierka> 5 to 30: Increment variable (3+(x*5)), where x is the length
12:40:17 <asiekierka> -5 to -30 is the same, but decrement
12:40:31 <asiekierka> And there can only be 5 variables
12:40:34 <asiekierka> 0-4
12:40:50 <asiekierka> so the length can be 3, 8, 13, 18, or 23
12:41:16 <asiekierka> But I can't believe I'm making an esolang for which you only need a ruler and a protractor
12:41:59 <asiekierka> er, 5 to 30 should be: Increment variable x, and the calculation for drawing the line is (3+x*5)
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12:45:17 <asiekierka> i made my first program that makes no sense
12:45:34 <asiekierka> First it nop's for 10 cycles, then it increments variables 0 and 1 and decrements 2
12:45:34 <asiekierka> :P
12:45:47 <Ilari> asiekierka: Add instructions to change "speed", the space being transformed from underlying space to reading space using Lorentz tranformations. :-)
12:46:09 <asiekierka> Ilari: I'm not a maths geek so I don't know what you mean
12:46:20 <asiekierka> But i still have 300 degrees left to use
12:48:08 <asiekierka> I will show you how the program looks like
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12:48:43 <asiekierka> Lemme make a photo though
12:48:48 <asiekierka> as i'm too lazy to pull out my scanner
12:49:45 <lifthrasiir> asiekierka: When one's speed reaches the speed of light, what he/she sees is distorted according to his/her direction.
12:50:41 <asiekierka> I don't quite get it so nah
12:50:57 <lifthrasiir> :p
12:51:34 <lifthrasiir> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lorentz_transform_of_world_line.gif it is very excellent image explaining such behavior
12:51:49 <asiekierka> I'm looking at it
12:52:13 <asiekierka> It doesn't help much, but I get the idea
12:52:33 <Slereah_> There's a much better example actually
12:52:52 <Slereah_> There's a software that lets you pilot a little spaceship at relativistic speeds
12:52:59 <Slereah_> It's quite nifty
12:53:03 <asiekierka> link plz?
12:53:13 <Slereah_> Lemme see
12:53:27 <lifthrasiir> for example, http://www.adamauton.com/warp/ ?
12:53:45 <lifthrasiir> there are plenty of programs there, search for "relativity simulation" for example
12:56:40 <Slereah_> http://www.starstrider.com/
12:57:38 <asiekierka> I see the apparent distortion
12:57:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm there are lots of whois clients
12:57:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> but what about whois servers
12:58:14 <asiekierka> but i still don't quite get it, but nah, lemme upload how a typical handmade Anglent program looks like
12:58:23 <asiekierka> (Anglent is a temporary name, maybe it'll stay)
12:59:38 <asiekierka> http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/6489/dsc01722q.jpg - here you go
13:00:05 <asiekierka> the last NOP line may NOT be working but should
13:00:17 <asiekierka> The interp should handle errors in draw
13:00:22 <asiekierka> because the interp should be human
13:01:22 <asiekierka> So, how do you like it
13:02:54 <asiekierka> Hello?
13:03:00 <ais523> hi
13:03:00 <asiekierka> It's how the esolang looks like
13:03:24 <ais523> sorry, I was having technical problems trying to load it
13:03:28 <ais523> still am, in fact
13:03:33 <ais523> I'll let you know when I can actually see the image
13:03:36 <asiekierka> Okay
13:03:42 <asiekierka> I can upload it to my server though
13:03:44 <ais523> ah, ok
13:03:45 <asiekierka> and not Images Hack Us
13:03:48 <ais523> I can see it now
13:03:53 <asiekierka> and?
13:03:56 <ais523> and interesting
13:04:00 <asiekierka> really? O_O
13:04:02 <ais523> is it just a weird way to represent a program
13:04:07 <ais523> or are you going to add restrictions
13:04:21 <ais523> such as preventing the line crossing itself, or forcing it to come back to its starting point, or something?
13:04:26 <asiekierka> It can't go left.
13:04:27 <ais523> you could have multithreading by branching and rejoining the lines
13:04:34 <ais523> maybe Befunge-style loops, too
13:04:39 <asiekierka> It can't go left, as I said.
13:04:51 <ais523> although those would involve going left
13:05:03 <asiekierka> The "Audioform/Basic" version can't branch, is just a long, variously curved line
13:05:34 <asiekierka> And I think BF could work this way
13:05:42 <ais523> how do you do loops?
13:06:08 <asiekierka> You can't do them in Audioform/Basic. Why? Cuz Audioform/Basic is the version capable of possibly being stored in a WAV file
13:06:31 <asiekierka> Audioform/Pro allows to jump back by x milimetres, where x is the length of the line
13:06:46 <asiekierka> But i'm going to work on Audioform/Pro first
13:07:00 <asiekierka> So 30-45 degrees is: Jump back by x milimetres
13:07:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> so
13:07:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> anyone knows any whois server software?
13:07:28 <asiekierka> 45-55 is: Jump back by x milimetres if variable 0 is larger than 0
13:07:35 <asiekierka> Oh, and variables can have values from 0 to 9
13:07:52 <asiekierka> Why? Cuz I want to make an interpreter that doesn't need any electronics
13:07:59 <asiekierka> and can be hand-operated
13:08:25 <asiekierka> Oh, and -30 to -40 is: Jump back by x milimetres if variable 1 is larger than 0
13:09:23 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: I don't offhand, I assume someone does but they might not be in this channel
13:09:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> true
13:09:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, but even wikipedia's article on whois doesn't mention any
13:09:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> so I'm kind of lost here
13:09:53 <asiekierka> And I can use -90 to 90
13:10:00 <asiekierka> And i'm using -40 to 55
13:10:35 <asiekierka> -40 to -50 is: Swap variable x with variable 0. The length is (3+x*5)
13:10:43 <asiekierka> -50 to -60 is the same, but with variable 1.
13:10:57 <asiekierka> So -60 to 55, which leaves me 30 on the minus side and 35 on the plus side
13:11:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> meh
13:11:08 <asiekierka> Any ideas?
13:11:19 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Write your own
13:11:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> what?
13:11:33 <AnMaster_ipv6> I'm not talking about what you said
13:11:34 <asiekierka> whois server
13:11:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> ah
13:11:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> right
13:11:51 <asiekierka> :)
13:11:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, well I found some I think, seems the RIPE one is open or shared source (not sure yet)
13:12:10 <asiekierka> Ok, so, ais523: Any ideas what to do with the leftover command space?
13:12:32 <asiekierka> I think I may do an input command, as in "Set whatever variable you want in variable 0"
13:12:50 <asiekierka> 55 to 65 degrees: Input to var. 0
13:13:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/dbase/software/whoisserver-nightly.tgz <-- hm *loading*
13:13:29 <asiekierka> And well, you can't go left so you must do meaningless commands to be on the right track
13:13:36 <asiekierka> as in
13:13:38 <asiekierka> for example
13:13:49 <asiekierka> a bunch of -4 degree "nop 3" or something
13:14:25 <asiekierka> Or -25 "dec 0" and +10 "inc 0", that gives you -15 in 6 milimetres
13:14:55 <asiekierka> Or -28 and +7, which gives you -21 degrees
13:14:58 <asiekierka> in 6 milimetres
13:16:13 <asiekierka> Remember, going over -90 or 90 degrees is an error in a computer interpreter
13:16:18 <asiekierka> But a human interpreter needn't care
13:16:20 <asiekierka> :)
13:16:38 <fizzie> Yes, I think SixXS uses the RIPE server sources too for whois.sixxs.org.
13:16:44 <AnMaster_ipv6> wow RIPE uses mysql it seems...
13:17:17 <AnMaster_ipv6> and there is an embedded imap server software it seems
13:17:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> with code around for AMIGA and DOS (in the directory for the imap part)
13:18:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> tops-20 too
13:18:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> wth
13:19:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> what a mess
13:19:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> oh well
13:20:35 <asiekierka> Well, I'm working on a rough template of a Anglent interpreter board
13:21:22 <asiekierka> which you need to combine with a drawing of an Anglent program
13:21:30 <asiekierka> and then you can interpret
13:21:47 <asiekierka> An Anglent board currently contains the state of v0 to v4
13:21:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> err
13:22:33 <ais523> asiekierka: why not v6?
13:22:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> btw anyone made a non-discrete automaton yet? DOBELA is after all discrete, using ticks, and cells
13:22:49 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: Gravity, but it's uncomputable
13:22:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> something can't go to an arbitrary position
13:23:06 <asiekierka> v0 -> v4 are Variable 0 to Variable 4
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13:23:08 <asiekierka> that's why
13:23:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, yes I know that one is uncomputable. But is it possible to make a computable automaton like that?
13:23:17 <asiekierka> And you CAN have more than 5 variables
13:23:19 <ais523> asiekierka: clearly I should make my jokes more obvious
13:23:22 <asiekierka> but that makes too long lines
13:23:28 <asiekierka> ais523: ipv6, i get it
13:23:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, because I don't know *why* Gravity is uncomputable
13:23:30 <asiekierka> :P
13:23:56 <asiekierka> Oh, and for multithreading programs you need more Anglent boards
13:23:57 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: because you need infinite precision in solving differential equations to solve it
13:24:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, ah right. What I meant would be something like that Photon idea I had. where program was controlled by photons hitting mirrors that moved to cause sensitive switches to change and such
13:24:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> in 3D
13:24:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> I never got around to details
13:25:12 <asiekierka> And 65 to 80 degrees is: Exchange between process x and process 0, where the line length is (2+(x*4)) mm
13:25:17 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, it would be ray-tracing I guess.
13:25:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> or something
13:25:32 <asiekierka> So i have 80-90 left and -90 to -60
13:25:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> I mean, tracing the photons emitted to see what they hit
13:25:50 <asiekierka> 80 to 90 degrees is: exit program
13:25:51 <AnMaster_ipv6> possibly classical physics only
13:25:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> or maybe not
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13:26:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, it might be uncomputable too
13:26:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> probably in fact
13:26:55 <asiekierka> Forking is represented by drawing a straight line down from the process you want to fork from.
13:27:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, you are going to implement it yourself this time?
13:27:42 <asiekierka> AnMaster: If by "implement" you mean "the human interpreter board", I already did that
13:27:53 <asiekierka> Because it is intended to be interpreted by a human
13:28:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> cop-out
13:28:53 <asiekierka> So, yep, but an interpreter is centrainly possible, but human is better for such things
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13:30:32 <asiekierka> Of course, it would be a pain to interpret if it splits in 25 processes or something
13:30:48 <asiekierka> ANGLENT: (process amount) users required!
13:31:18 <asiekierka> Oh, and if a process ends, the board can be reused
13:31:30 <asiekierka> Wait, no it can't, sorta
13:31:39 <asiekierka> Why? Because it may still copy data from that process
13:31:56 <asiekierka> So we need -60 to -70: Remove process x, where the line length is (5+(x*5)) mm
13:31:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, example program please. Because I have no idea what you are trying to describe
13:32:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> it's confusing
13:32:07 <asiekierka> I already gave a link, but it's simple
13:32:13 <asiekierka> AnMaster: I know
13:32:51 <asiekierka> I'm making a program showing more features
13:33:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, is it TC?
13:33:15 <asiekierka> AnMaster: I don't know
13:33:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> how do you do a loop?
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13:33:29 <asiekierka> There is a "jump back if variable 0 > 0"
13:33:37 <asiekierka> and you can swap different variables with variables 0 and 1
13:33:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> infinite memory?
13:34:15 <asiekierka> Well, you CAN extend memory by using more processes
13:34:27 <AnMaster_ipv6> infinite number of processes then?
13:34:30 <asiekierka> Yep
13:34:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> or are variables bignum?
13:34:44 <asiekierka> Variables are digits from 0 to... guess.
13:34:47 <asiekierka> 256? 512? 65535?
13:34:51 <AnMaster_ipv6> meh
13:34:51 <asiekierka> No. 0 to 9.
13:34:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> why that limit
13:35:03 <asiekierka> Because it's meant to be interpreted by human
13:35:04 <asiekierka> :)
13:35:32 <asiekierka> And I don't want to make the boards too large
13:35:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> well and? Humans calculated pi to several hundred digits long before computers were invented
13:35:45 <asiekierka> Well, this is the Basic ANGLENT board
13:35:48 <asiekierka> You can make your own
13:35:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> digits of precision*
13:35:48 <asiekierka> :D
13:36:00 <asiekierka> That's the good thing, it only defines the commands
13:36:01 <asiekierka> it doesn
13:36:12 <asiekierka> it doesn't define anything else, the number of processes, number of digits
13:37:47 <asiekierka> and that's the point of Anglent
13:37:55 <asiekierka> the other point is that it can't go left
13:38:06 <asiekierka> as in
13:38:09 <asiekierka> the line can't go backwards
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13:38:51 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, you said you could jump though?
13:39:13 <asiekierka> jump back
13:39:17 <asiekierka> but that's not drawing a line backwards
13:39:21 <AnMaster_ipv6> true
13:39:23 <asiekierka> it's moving the IP backwards, sorta
13:39:52 <asiekierka> By "the line can't go backwards" I meant "the line can't be drawn backwards, it must go right, even if by a minimal amount"
13:40:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, you need to write a reference implementation that interprets svg images
13:40:06 <asiekierka> The exception is forking, cuz you draw a straight line down for that
13:40:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> write it yourself that is
13:40:31 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Why can't I just show you an image of a program and how it works when interpreted
13:40:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, less fun
13:40:53 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, so you can make a fork bomb?
13:40:54 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Or make a video where I interpret a program myself?
13:41:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> by jumping back over a fork
13:41:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> and forking multiple times
13:41:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> what about making each program recursively fork new ones
13:41:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> so you get exponential growth
13:41:38 <asiekierka> Well, you need to remove a process for it to not count
13:41:42 <asiekierka> So theoretically you can
13:41:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, ?
13:41:50 <asiekierka> By making a fork and jumping back so you can make the fork again
13:41:58 <asiekierka> without removing the previous process's data
13:42:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> but how do you do exponential growing forks
13:42:16 <asiekierka> Do you need that?
13:42:36 <asiekierka> Well, you can't clone the program you're doing
13:42:36 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, can the forked process jump back to the previous program to make a fork too
13:42:43 <asiekierka> AnMaster: No
13:42:50 <asiekierka> The forked process is it's own set of commands
13:42:58 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: Incidentally, I just solved that "matrix too short" issue I had.
13:42:58 <asiekierka> but it may exchange data between any process
13:43:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> so you can't make an exponential growing fork bomb
13:43:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, oh?
13:43:05 <asiekierka> Probably no
13:43:13 <asiekierka> But you still can make a fork bomb
13:43:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, how do you make an if
13:43:54 <asiekierka> Well, I need to add a "jump forward" command for that
13:43:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> I hope you can skip code depending on if a variable is set or not
13:44:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, do all processes run at the same rate
13:44:31 <AnMaster_ipv6> and how is that rate defined
13:44:36 <asiekierka> -70 to -80: Jump forward x milimetres if v0 > 0, length is (4+(x*5))
13:44:44 <asiekierka> So now you can skip code
13:44:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> k
13:44:51 <asiekierka> And to make a fork bomb
13:44:55 <asiekierka> you use the "jump back" command
13:45:08 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: My original sound source was a .mp3 file recorded from one of those interweb radios; the script used sox to turn that to a raw audio file for the Octave analysis. I was correctly looking at the raw audio file for the amount of samples, but accidentally reading the from the unconverted MP3. So one of the blocks was shorter because it hit the end of the MP3 file, and the blocks after that were full-length since fseek-past-end-of-file was actually
13:45:08 <fizzie> silently failing in Octave, and they started reading from the beginning of the file.
13:45:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> yes sure, but I can't see how you could make each process be a sub-fork-bomb
13:45:20 <oklopol> is gravity tc?
13:45:28 <asiekierka> Well, you can
13:45:31 <asiekierka> Sorta
13:45:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, ah!
13:45:33 <asiekierka> I will show how
13:46:01 <fizzie> (Of course reading the .mp3 file as a raw audio file also meant the results were, shall we say, suboptimal. Whelp, that's about twenty hours of CPU time wasted.)
13:46:10 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Well, I think you can make each fork process be an infinite loop
13:46:39 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, hm?
13:46:51 <asiekierka> Well
13:46:55 <asiekierka> With the "jump back" command
13:46:59 <asiekierka> You can make infinite loops
13:47:09 <asiekierka> And you can make an infinite fork-creating loop in the main process
13:47:17 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, yep but that is not what I asked about
13:47:28 <oklopol> fizzie: how much was wasted in human money?
13:47:31 <asiekierka> You can't make every process a sub-fork-bomb
13:47:38 <asiekierka> Except if a program could fork-clone itself
13:47:50 <fizzie> oklopol: Depends on the amount of $$$s you give for my sanity, I guess.
13:47:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, can't it draw a straight line up to a previous program?
13:48:20 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Well, I did think of that but it may get too messy for a human
13:48:27 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm
13:48:28 <asiekierka> I'm thinking of drawing a straight line up to CLONE a process
13:48:34 <oklopol> fizzie: maybe 200€
13:48:42 <oklopol> nah 100
13:48:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> bbl food
13:48:44 <asiekierka> as in, like forking, but it does whatever the process forked from is doing
13:48:47 <asiekierka> only on it's own space
13:48:58 <fizzie> oklopol: Well, some vaguely definable part of that was lost. Maybe around one euro, then.
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13:49:40 <oklopol> fizzie: well i assume you value your sanity more than me
13:49:51 <oklopol> it's a bit subjective
13:50:14 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly.
13:51:19 <fizzie> Yes. Well, a more objective number would be the amount of electrons wasted, but I don't care enough to start approximating that.
13:54:06 <asiekierka> Uploading the fork bomb...
13:58:08 <asiekierka> well, it nops 5, inc's v0, clones itself, nops 10 and jumps back just to the moment of cloning
13:58:26 <asiekierka> http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9668/dsc01723m.jpg
13:58:39 <AnMaster_ipv6> back
13:58:55 <asiekierka> I did the forkbomb
13:59:24 <asiekierka> Well, it will work on a COMPUTER interpreter
13:59:34 <asiekierka> cuz HUMAN interpreters will probably realize it's a forkbomb
13:59:51 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, and execute PLEASE GIVE UP instead?
14:00:09 <asiekierka> No, they'll just stop execution
14:00:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> ...
14:00:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> duh
14:00:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, that was what I said basically...
14:00:59 <asiekierka> Well, humans can detect a fork bomb
14:01:39 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, you completely failed to detect the INTERCAL reference right?
14:01:47 <asiekierka> I don't even know INTERCAL well!
14:01:54 <asiekierka> so, yes
14:01:55 <asiekierka> i failed
14:01:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> I don't claim to know it well
14:02:21 <asiekierka> oh
14:02:26 <asiekierka> "PLEASE GIVE UP" is the reference
14:02:45 <AnMaster_ipv6> yep
14:02:49 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: "execute PLEASE" is redundant
14:02:58 <ais523> you should just say "and PLEASE GIVE UP instead"
14:03:13 <ais523> INTERCAL's syntax was designed to be embedded into natural-lanuage English sentences, and you even fail to use that feature?
14:03:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> mhm
14:04:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, yeah I said I wasn't good at INTERCAL
14:04:18 <ais523> well get better then
14:05:13 <oklopol> yes AnMaster_ipv6 how dare you not be good at it
14:05:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, meh
14:05:28 <oklopol> there is an infinite amount of crap in my keyboard
14:05:35 <oklopol> when i turn it upside down
14:05:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, don't clean it!
14:05:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> wait
14:05:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> if it is infinite
14:05:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> it would 1) fill your room
14:06:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> 2) figure out a way to use it as memory then make an UTM
14:06:03 <oklopol> an infinite stream of all kindsa stuff snows down
14:06:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, don't waste the possibility to make an UTM!
14:08:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, interesting, gcc has an option to try to make use of delayed branch slots...
14:08:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> -fdelayed-branch
14:08:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> If supported for the target machine, attempt to reorder instructions to exploit instruction slots available after delayed branch instructions.
14:08:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> I wish x86 had that
14:09:04 <fizzie> Is that turned on by default? One would think it would be.
14:09:15 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, yes it is
14:09:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> with -O and higher
14:15:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, there are lots of interesting flags to gcc, did you see what I said above there seems to be roughly over 770 of them
14:15:21 <AnMaster_ipv6> in gcc 4.3.2
14:15:45 <AnMaster_ipv6> (a bit hard to measure, the --help -v output is not that simple to parse)
14:15:45 <fizzie> Did not notice that, no.
14:16:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> I removed assembler and linker flags info
14:16:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> also: <AnMaster_ipv6> GCC has an anti-inline option
14:16:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> <AnMaster_ipv6> -frtl-abstract-sequences
14:16:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> <AnMaster_ipv6> it tries to find common code and abstract it out in a shared function
14:16:53 <AnMaster_ipv6> <AnMaster_ipv6> there is a *doucmented* switch gcc --help=undocumented
14:16:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> <AnMaster_ipv6> some of those are documented in man page, how boring
14:17:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, around that is info about the 770 flags in logs
14:17:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> should be easy to grep for
14:20:24 <fizzie> Yes, well, I did catch the gist of it: there are some 770+ options.
14:22:31 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: the documentation for --help=undocumented is obviously lying
14:22:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> yes
14:22:41 <ais523> now you can decide whether it counts as a documented switch or not
14:23:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> heh
14:23:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, It seems to mean there is no --help text stored for the switch
14:23:53 <AnMaster_ipv6> maybe the listing is auto generated
14:23:54 <asiekierka> So, well, I gotta collect all Anglent commands
14:23:55 <ais523> well, yes, that's a good definition of undocumented
14:24:04 <ais523> and it is auto-generated, gcc has command-line option definition files
14:24:15 <ais523> its whole command-line option infrastructure is /really/ over the top
14:24:28 <ais523> but I suppose with 770 options, it needs a pretty heavyweight infrastructure
14:24:31 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, Why doesn't it use GNU getopt_long? After all it is a GNU project so why...
14:24:53 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: probably it does internally, but are you going to pass 770 options to it by hand?
14:25:00 <ais523> also, the options depend on things like compile-time flags
14:25:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, no way!
14:25:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm true
14:25:24 <ais523> so it has a heavy infrastructure for trying to make sure the options end up in the binary
14:25:28 <ais523> and also in the documentation
14:26:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, yeah openmp is a compile time option for gcc itself. So the existence of -openmp (or whatever) at compile time(1) depends options passed at compile time(2)
14:26:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> (1) of program
14:26:45 <AnMaster_ipv6> (2) of gcc
14:26:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> :D
14:27:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> afraid I didn't manage to mess up that more
14:27:20 <ais523> in gcc-bf, all the compile-time options are actually link-time, passed with -Wl
14:27:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, even that -m open I suggested to select EOF value?
14:27:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> EOF behaviour*
14:28:22 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: I haven't implemented that yet, but it's a library issue not a main-program issue
14:28:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> heh
14:29:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, does it work fully nowdays or?
14:29:35 <ais523> I haven't worked on it for a while
14:29:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> I mean can you get it to generate a runnable program
14:29:44 <AnMaster_ipv6> ok
14:29:45 <ais523> I can run some very simple programs
14:29:53 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, so it generates bf now?
14:29:57 <ais523> the current state is that some features, like multiplication, are missing
14:30:00 <ais523> and most of the others are buggy
14:30:10 <ais523> but it does generate bf, sometimes the bf even works
14:30:27 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, the patch to gcc I could host, the full gcc would be a bit too large.
14:30:43 <ais523> well, let me create something to host first
14:30:50 <ais523> and not right now
14:31:00 <ais523> I haven't slept for 5 or 6 nights in a row
14:31:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, ouch!
14:31:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, why not
14:31:08 <ais523> although I have been sleeping over the day to make up
14:31:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> :(
14:31:34 <ais523> and because I've been getting my University project report finished, it's worth a massive number of marks and the deadline's tomorrow
14:31:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, ah
14:32:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, finished yet then?
14:32:21 <ais523> pretty much
14:32:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> good :)
14:32:26 <ais523> I came in today to look up a reference
14:35:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> oh
14:36:32 <ais523> wow, some spam I can actually read
14:36:33 <fizzie> Heh, we have this pair-wise university project that is now approximately two years late of the deadline, because the deadline was a "soft" one. It's "almost done", hoping to finish it tomorrow.
14:36:34 <ais523> "We apologize for contacting you at this time of the day on 08:16 AM , and we hope that we haven't interrupted you in anyway, but we wanted to make sure that you received the message that we sent you last week. We have checks ready to send you for offering us your honest opinion on various online surveys that only take a few minutes to complete."
14:36:48 <ais523> it's even spelt correctly and almost has correct grammar
14:36:54 <ais523> something's gone wrong with the world
14:37:48 <ais523> (I set my email client to never show HTML email; if there's no plain text it just shows nothing. This has the nice side effect of meaning most spam doesn't show up.)
14:38:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, indeed
14:39:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, does anyone actually enable HTML email support?
14:39:27 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: you'd be surprised
14:39:31 <AnMaster_ipv6> huh
14:39:35 <ais523> pretty much all internet users have it on by default
14:39:37 <ais523> and never changed it
14:39:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> they should change the default in clients then
14:40:08 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: but then you couldn't send people emails with smileys and pictures in
14:40:19 * ais523 wonders if it's possible to send an HTML form by email
14:40:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, emails? attach file?
14:40:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> I have nothing against MIME to attach files
14:40:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> pics, patches and such
14:40:59 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: you don't get the point, the point isn't to send information
14:41:03 <ais523> the point is that the email /looks pretty/
14:41:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> oh
14:41:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm
14:41:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, then don't use email duh
14:41:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, and you can send smilies:
14:42:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> :D :) and so on
14:42:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> that is what smiles originally are
14:42:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> pure text
14:42:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> you could make your email client convert them in pure text messages
14:42:43 * AnMaster_ipv6 has seen a bug tracker that converted smilies everywhere
14:42:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> made C++ backtraces look horrible
14:42:55 <fizzie> You can't have that pretty pink background in your message.
14:43:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> and yes a C++ project used it
14:43:02 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: emails sent in Outlook by default not only use HTML, but with some awful Microsoft out-of-bound information
14:43:16 <ais523> also, replies come up in blue
14:43:23 <ais523> personally I think it looks hideous
14:43:31 <AnMaster_ipv6> out-of-bound or out-of-band
14:43:33 <AnMaster_ipv6> or both?
14:43:40 <ais523> I meant out-of-band
14:43:44 <fizzie> MSN messenger converts (or at least used to) some pretty common character combination to a smiley, I think it was ":s".
14:43:47 <ais523> I haven't slept for almost 24 hours, please forgive me
14:44:01 <ais523> fizzie: in what way is :s common?
14:44:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, add notice at top saying: For best viewing experience set your terminal emulator to use pink background.
14:44:14 <ais523> I'd say MSN is probably acting according to the wishes of the majority of its users
14:44:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> Problem solved :D
14:44:29 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: err... how many people view email on a terminal emulator nowadays/
14:44:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, well ok, but usually GUI clients doesn't have features like that
14:45:12 <ais523> features like what?
14:45:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> thus making text based ones more flexible (as usual)
14:45:21 <ais523> they do have HTML email support, always in my experience
14:45:25 <ais523> I know of no exceptions
14:45:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, ... for text only stuff
14:45:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> + you can get pink for the inbox listing too in pine I guess
14:45:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> if you set your terminal's colour scheme that wya
14:45:51 <AnMaster_ipv6> way*
14:45:56 * ais523 is suddenly annoyed that ehird isn't here to watch
14:46:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> probably possible in konsole at least
14:46:31 <ais523> both konsole and gnome-terminal could handle it easily
14:46:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, well I'm glad he isn't because he wouldn't just watch, he would take active part
14:46:37 <ais523> you are still missing the point of HTML email, anyway
14:47:02 <ais523> if your alternative is to insist that everyone who reads your email uses a terminal emulator just so they can override the background of your email to pink
14:47:06 <ais523> then you are missing the point
14:48:15 <fizzie> ais523: Finnish as all those suffixes instead of prepositions, and a lot of them start with 's'; OTOH, for abbreviations a common style is to use : before the suffix. So "in C++" would be translated as "C++:ssa", and MSN would convert that to "C++[silly smiley]sa".
14:48:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> <ais523> you are still missing the point of HTML email, anyway
14:48:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> well yeah
14:48:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> maybe because there isn't any?
14:48:53 <ais523> fizzie: ah, OK
14:49:00 <ais523> I assume that most MSN Messenger users aren't Finnish
14:49:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> I would get very annoyed if I got a pink email
14:49:09 <ais523> just based on statistics
14:49:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> or a pink mail at all
14:49:13 <ais523> probably most are American
14:49:44 <fizzie> Well, maybe not "a lot of them" start with s, but both the "-ssa" and "-sta" suffixes (which correspond to "in" and "from" prepositions, roughly) do, and those are rather common.
14:50:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, can't you turn that off in your msn client?
14:51:56 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: I have trouble just trying to close MSN when someone else has left it running
14:52:06 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, hm
14:52:09 <ais523> it is a very hard program to use correctly, the user interface is seriously unintuitive
14:52:12 <fizzie> I suspect the smileys are configurable. I do MSN with Bitlbee in an IRC client, anyway.
14:52:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, Ctrl-Alt-Del and kill the process?
14:52:25 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: in a cybercafe?
14:52:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> oh ok
14:52:38 <ais523> worrying enough that the session didn't end when the person before me ran out of time
14:52:53 <AnMaster_ipv6> rue
14:52:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> true*
14:53:31 <ais523> more worrying still that control-alt-delete actually worked there and you could kill the thing that logged you off with it
14:53:38 <ais523> but I didn't do that as it probably would have been theft
14:53:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm, irritating when music have very quiet and very loud parts after each other. you have to constantly tune the volume to either be able to hear the music or not destroy your ears
14:53:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> :(
14:54:46 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: apply some compression to it?
14:55:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, hm how
14:56:21 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, I'm listening using a radio. Not a computer
14:56:22 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: compression as in the musical effect
14:56:35 <ais523> and probably most radios don't have it available
14:56:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm
14:57:45 <asiekierka> So I have 12 commands in my esolang
14:57:51 <asiekierka> And I minimized it to just use -35 to 35
14:57:54 <fizzie> One of the higher-end home theater -style systems could probably do it; at least it certainly could if they'd bothered to program that part in, since it's all done with DSP anyway.
14:57:55 <asiekierka> which gives me a lot more space
14:58:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, hm wouldn't it also destroy the feeling of the music kind of
14:58:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> for something like Per Gynt (full opera) at least...
14:58:47 <fizzie> Tuning the volume around mid-piece is probably not any better than processing the signal otherwise, for the "intent" of the composer.
14:59:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, true :/
14:59:07 <lifthrasiir> hmm, is there any XML-based esolang? i'm designing one but i'd like to see how other XML-based one does.
14:59:15 <fizzie> lifthrasiir: XSLT. :p
14:59:33 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: that's true, but what others?
15:00:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, they should limit the dynamic range, some sort of regulation is needed
15:02:50 <asiekierka> Ok, -50 to 50
15:03:48 <fizzie> Well, unless you have an excessively fancy radio, you'll probably have to run it through a computer or something if you want to do that at your end.
15:05:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, well this isn't such a fancy radio
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15:08:43 <oklopol> i can't stand graphical smileys, it's not that they're big and yellow, that's okay, it's just it looks really weird when the face is ...upside-up
15:08:56 <asiekierka> lol
15:09:10 <asiekierka> A simple infinite loop in Anglent looks like a curve
15:09:27 <asiekierka> as in, Anglent 0.9
15:10:08 <oklopol> well okay i like ^__^
15:10:12 <fizzie> oklopol: ☺
15:10:15 <oklopol> maybe it's the yellow thing after all.
15:10:21 <oklopol> fizzie: so weird.
15:10:31 <oklopol> maybe it's the fact it's in a circle
15:10:54 <oklopol> can you do _ plus umlaut for me?
15:10:58 <fizzie> You only like people who do not have a physical head, just the face flying around.
15:11:10 <fizzie> ⚍ is pretty close. :p
15:11:19 <oklopol> well. that looks fine.
15:11:38 <oklopol> if only i had any idea how to do it
15:11:51 <oklopol> how do people do unicode anyway?
15:12:18 <fizzie> oklopol: I just pick from the "gucharmap" application. That one was U+268D DIGRAM FOR LESSER YIN.
15:12:19 <oklopol> do you have like a 2d chart and an approximate knowledge of what's where
15:12:27 <ais523_> oklopol: I use the character map application on here
15:12:35 <ais523_> and approximate knowledge to find the character quickly
15:12:39 <fizzie> gucharmap and "view / by unicode block", that's usually enough.
15:12:46 <ais523_> some I have memorised, like é and →
15:12:57 <oklopol>
15:13:01 <fizzie> Em-dash with combining diaeresis: —̈
15:13:02 <oklopol> it's on my keyboard
15:13:37 <oklopol> é too, just ' plus e (' only shows the correct dottie when used with the e)
15:14:00 <oklopol> fizzie: omg that's cute :>
15:14:12 <oklopol> except the name
15:14:16 <fizzie> There's a dead key in the default fi layout which adds ´ and ` to letters.
15:14:20 <asiekierka> What about Basilisk's Eye
15:14:34 <oklopol> diaeresis sounds like a plural of diarrhea
15:14:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Connection timed out).
15:14:43 <ehird> 13:45 ais523 is suddenly annoyed that ehird isn't here to watch
15:14:57 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6 suffers from "I don't like this feature, why isn't everyone an übergeek like me"-itis
15:15:06 <fizzie> The mutant: ⋮)
15:15:20 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
15:15:29 <oklopol> the third eye is not on the face here
15:15:50 <oklopol> that's a colon + a third dot almost on the line above
15:15:58 <fizzie> It's probably not been optimized for smiley usage; it was just the vertical ellipsis in mathematical operators.
15:16:09 <oklopol> well. noodle time i thinks
15:16:15 <oklopol> ah'
15:16:17 <oklopol> *ah
15:16:28 <ehird> is it bad that I like xslt sort of
15:16:30 <oklopol> is there a
15:16:32 <oklopol> .
15:16:33 <oklopol> .
15:16:35 <oklopol> .
15:16:41 <fizzie> oklopol: is ⁖) better?
15:16:49 <oklopol> yes!
15:16:53 <asiekierka> fizzie: Eyes are not so fat!
15:16:56 <asiekierka> or big
15:16:59 <fizzie> And yes, there's both ⋰ and ⋱
15:19:06 <ais523> <comment on a news article? "hello sir , i was read your whole article that's good . there are kindly request by me plz give me the whole details in my email id.sothat i read it very well way"
15:19:18 <ais523> that makes no sense either as a spambot or as a please send me the codes
15:19:21 <ais523> what's going on there?
15:19:53 <asiekierka> I am think it a Chingrish, sir
15:20:25 <asiekierka> *ahem* Yep, centrainly Chingrish or a Chinese spambot
15:21:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> <asiekierka> fizzie: Eyes are not so fat! <asiekierka> or big <-- ... never heard that story
15:21:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> :P
15:21:43 <asiekierka> I'm going to work on many "graph" languages which can be interpreted by human
15:22:26 <asiekierka> well, not many
15:22:32 <asiekierka> But Anglent is a good start
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15:38:33 <asiekierka> I made AngF too, BF which looks like Anglent code
15:40:59 <asiekierka> And I drew Cat in AngF
15:41:46 <lifthrasiir> http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/xumul well, i'm designing this stupid language now.
15:42:06 <asiekierka> lifthrasiir: You can't get more stupid than AngF
15:42:12 <asiekierka> Which is basically Graph BF
15:42:17 <lifthrasiir> wow.
15:42:25 <asiekierka> But Anglent is quite more original
15:42:37 <asiekierka> with forking and human-interpreting
15:42:43 <asiekierka> WELL, AngF can also be human-interpreted
15:42:44 <asiekierka> but why?
15:43:35 <lifthrasiir> asiekierka: why not?
15:44:11 <ais523> IRP is still going to be the best human-interpreted esolang around
15:45:10 <asiekierka> I know
15:45:23 <asiekierka> But Anglent can be BOTH human-interpreted AND computer-interpreted
15:45:37 <asiekierka> And possibly electromechanical-interpreted
15:47:01 <oklopol> anything that can be computer-interpreted can be human-interpreted
15:47:18 <asiekierka> Well, yep
15:47:42 <asiekierka> Except Malbolge, because every human will give an error OR destroy his brain before finishing "Cat"
15:47:59 <asiekierka> And my esolang is specifically crafted to be human-interpreted
15:48:09 <oklopol> well what do you mean by that?
15:48:18 <oklopol> that when done on paper you don't need to erase much?
15:48:26 <asiekierka> You don't need to erase AT ALL
15:48:30 <asiekierka> with the right ANGLENT board
15:48:33 <asiekierka> which is very easy to make
15:49:03 <asiekierka> As in, you move a black strip of paper attached to the board via cuts, there are 5 of these, each for a variable
15:49:07 <asiekierka> Input is done by moving it
15:49:13 <asiekierka> and output is done by writing it on a sheet of paper
15:49:22 <asiekierka> You can do it with BF though, too
15:49:25 <asiekierka> :P
15:49:28 <asiekierka> Well, no
15:49:29 <asiekierka> you can't
15:49:33 <asiekierka> cuz it has TOO MUCH STUFF
15:49:35 <asiekierka> in the pointer
15:49:37 <asiekierka> as in
15:49:39 <asiekierka> in the array
15:49:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> <lifthrasiir> http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/xumul well, i'm designing this stupid language now. <-- how do you compute in it?
15:49:57 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster_ipv6: i'm writing "Command semantics" section now
15:50:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> ah
15:50:41 <asiekierka> Ok, how can you have a 13.923568-bit-long integer
15:51:12 <ehird> yesssss, I perfected linux font rendering
15:51:15 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, why do you want human interpretation
15:51:19 <ehird> and I thought it couldn't be done!
15:51:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, details
15:51:33 <lifthrasiir> asiekierka: 1114111 + 1 becomes 0. So that's mod-1114112 integer with strange description.
15:51:49 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: well, it probably won't suit your tastes: it optimizes for typographical clarity over thinness, and also for high-DPI lcds
15:51:51 <ehird> but:
15:52:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> I'd still like to know
15:52:31 <ehird> Enable subpixel rendering. Disable autohinting. Use "Slight" hinting. Make a fontconfig block that conditions on font size >16 (uh, I'm not sure if it's points or pixels... Over 16 pixels, anyway) to set hinting to full
15:52:51 <ehird> == no blue/red edges on large fonts, but text fonts keep their full body
15:53:09 <asiekierka> AnMaster_ipv6: Well, uh, what's the point of Wheel then?
15:53:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> Disable autohinting. <-- I mentioned that before already...
15:53:12 <asiekierka> or what was it called
15:53:14 <asiekierka> Whirl, I think
15:53:16 <ehird> It cannot contain any entities. (%foo; etc.)
15:53:19 <ehird> lifthrasiir: &foo;
15:53:21 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, ?
15:53:44 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, hm interesting idea
15:53:44 <asiekierka> Whirl, the one where you have 2 wheels you rotate
15:54:00 <lifthrasiir> ehird: it will only permit one of &lt; &gt; &amp; &quot; &#123; &#xabc;, since DOCTYPE is not permitted
15:54:02 <asiekierka> esolangs.org/wiki/Whirl
15:54:06 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, never heard of it before
15:54:08 <ehird> lifthrasiir: its' not %foo
15:54:10 <ehird> it's &foo
15:54:19 <lifthrasiir> ehird: then that's error.
15:54:28 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: yeah -- with full hinting on everything, fonts all look pretty much the same and letters are very thin and undefined (esp. with subpixel)
15:54:28 <lifthrasiir> it cannot be in initial source code.
15:54:33 <ehird> but with slight larger fonts get artifacts
15:54:41 <asiekierka> It uses 2 rings and it can also be easily human-interpreted
15:54:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, hm right
15:55:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, also I didn't say there was anything wrong with human interpretation. But rather I was wondering why you seemed so fixated on them..
15:55:06 <fizzie> lifthrasiir: He's trying to tell you that your spec says "any entities (%foo; etc.)" which is not right.
15:55:20 <lifthrasiir> oops.
15:55:20 <fizzie> Since %foo; is not an entity.
15:55:29 <ehird> fizzie: I appoint you my translator.
15:55:31 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, details about fontconfig config hm?
15:55:44 <lifthrasiir> maybe i misread the XML spec.... hmm,
15:55:45 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Sure, sec
15:56:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> what's wrong with zsnes:
15:56:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> nasm -w-orphan-labels -D__UNIXSDL__ -f elf -DELF -D__OPENGL__ -O99999999 -D__RELEASE__ -o video/makev16b.o video/makev16b.asm
15:56:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm
15:56:27 <AnMaster_ipv6> -O99999999
15:56:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> crazy
15:56:36 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Cuz it's fun to make something that can be interpreted by human without pain
15:56:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> also it doesn't make much sense for an assembler
15:56:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, it is fun to write an interpreter too
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15:56:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> or compiler
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15:57:19 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: Hi from linux (so I can copypaste)
15:57:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, a bf-to-C compiler isn't too hard for example
15:57:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, heh
15:57:26 <lifthrasiir> ehird: hmm, what is %foo; called then? i got confused while reading XML spec.
15:57:35 <mib_ueqe1k> lifthrasiir: %foo; is just plaintext in xml.
15:57:38 <mib_ueqe1k> Do you mean a dtd?
15:57:43 <mib_ueqe1k> %foo means something in a dtd.
15:57:45 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Well, I just don't want to make an interpreter
15:57:47 <asiekierka> But I could
15:57:52 <asiekierka> And I may later, even
15:57:52 <lifthrasiir> mib_ueqe1k: ah, got it. thank you.
15:58:01 <asiekierka> And I may even write a printing app too
15:58:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, AnMaster doesn't highlight me atm, only this nick does. So what is wrong with tab completion?
15:58:30 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: Okay, here's how to set it up: Open $desktop_environment's font configuration panel, enable subpixel rendering, set hinting to Slight. Then, in ~/.fonts.conf or whathaveyou:
15:58:30 <mib_ueqe1k> <?xml version="1.0"?> <!DOCTYPE fontconfig SYSTEM "fonts.dtd"> <fontconfig> <match target="font"> <test name="pixelsize" compare="more"> <double>16</double> </test> <edit name="hintstyle" mode="assign"> <const>hintslight</const> </edit>
15:58:35 <asiekierka> AnMaster_ipv6: Oh, didn't know about that
15:58:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, hm...
15:58:44 <mib_ueqe1k> Then, log out and log back in again.
15:58:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Can you not set up highlighting so that AnMaster highlights as well?
15:58:53 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, I could
15:58:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> but why?
15:58:59 <Deewiant> Why not?
15:59:12 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: Note of course that any new font rendering settings take getting used to
15:59:12 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: It sort of makes sense for nasm, as there the n in "-On" (when n>1) is the limit for the number of optimization passes to do (when making branch-offset-type instructions use less bytes), so if you want to specify "do it as many times as necessary", you need a ridiculous number.
15:59:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, too much work.
15:59:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> and now: why?
15:59:27 <asiekierka> I'm wondering what other "draw" Esolang will I make
15:59:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> also yes it would be a few key presses away
15:59:36 <asiekierka> I'm thinking of circles
15:59:39 <AnMaster_ipv6> about one line of elisp iirc
15:59:39 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: Would you like a screenshot?
15:59:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:59:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, sure
16:00:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, since my screen is low dpi I couldn't use the same anyway
16:00:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Helps people that don't tab-complete to get to you, or people who just mention your nick in the middle of a sentence (which often implies lack of tab completion)
16:00:17 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, but that paste above was messy with no newlines
16:00:21 <AnMaster_ipv6> why not a pastebin?
16:00:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> :)
16:00:28 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: laze
16:00:31 <AnMaster_ipv6> ok
16:00:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> valid reasin
16:00:42 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: also, what dpi's your screen?
16:00:45 <mib_ueqe1k> Mine's 96dpi
16:01:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> I can (and do) tab complete in the middle Deewiant. What sort of client is missing that?
16:01:14 <asiekierka> Any ideas on what easy-to-human-interpret esolangs are there?
16:01:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, you said it was higher iirc?
16:01:17 <asiekierka> except Anglent and Whirl
16:01:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: I didn't say that clients don't support it, just that people don't always do it
16:01:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, and how do I calculate DPI now again..
16:01:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: IME people are much more likely to tab complete when addressing than anywhere else
16:01:56 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: "xdpyinfo | grep resolution"
16:02:08 <fizzie> Assuming your X knows the correct DPI.
16:02:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, I don't know if it does
16:02:27 <AnMaster_ipv6> $ xdpyinfo | grep resolution
16:02:27 <AnMaster_ipv6> resolution: 86x86 dots per inch
16:02:39 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: how big's your screen?
16:02:44 <fizzie> A measuring tape can also help.
16:02:45 <mib_ueqe1k> and how big's your resolution
16:03:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, res: 1400x1050
16:03:22 * AnMaster_ipv6 gets a ruler
16:03:25 <mib_ueqe1k> Wow, how do you cope?
16:03:30 <fizzie> xdpyinfo reports "94x94 dots per inch" here; I'm not sure how well it handles this "two monitors, not exactly identical DPI" case.
16:03:37 <mib_ueqe1k> I find this 1680x1050 monitor smothering.
16:03:44 <mib_ueqe1k> Or some other word.
16:03:50 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:03:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> screen on diagonal is more than my 50 cm ruler anyway
16:04:06 <AnMaster_ipv6> which is the longest ruler I have
16:04:06 <mib_ueqe1k> ais523: Hi. I solved linux font rendering, by the way.
16:04:17 <mib_ueqe1k> I'm going to be rich. And famous. Rich and famous.
16:04:20 <fizzie> You want either X or Y, so that you can divide it with that number of pixels.
16:04:21 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: no tape measure?
16:04:29 <mib_ueqe1k> fizzie: you want diagonal
16:04:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> ~30.5 cm high ~40.8 cm wide
16:04:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> +/- a few mm
16:04:51 <AnMaster_ipv6> a bit hard to measure
16:05:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, no measure tape around here anyway that I can find
16:05:16 <fizzie> 87.44262295081967213116 dpi in the Y side, 87.15686274509803921570 in X.
16:05:17 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: your monitor box has something on it about dpi, probably
16:05:25 <mib_ueqe1k> fizzie: ok, so his X is right
16:05:37 <mib_ueqe1k> that's quite a low dpi
16:05:37 <fizzie> Close enough, anyway.
16:05:39 <ais523> mib_ueqe1k: what's your solution?
16:05:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, monitor box? You think I store the original box it came in?
16:05:50 <ais523> also, this keyboard at the university on the computer next to me is crazy
16:06:05 <mib_ueqe1k> ais523: subpixel + no autohinting + a fontconfig that conditions: pixelsize<=16 = slight hinting, >16 = full hinting
16:06:11 <mib_ueqe1k> I'm uploading a screenshot as-we-speaketh to show andreou .
16:06:12 <mib_ueqe1k> Er.
16:06:14 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6.
16:06:23 <FireFly> Hm
16:06:29 <fizzie> "screen #0: dimensions: 2944x1280 pixels (795x345 millimeters)". That's rather far from correct, since the screen is not even actually rectangular.
16:06:30 <mib_ueqe1k> It is optimized for high-dpi LCDs, like I said.
16:06:33 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, anyway what would you recommend for this res then?
16:06:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> :P
16:06:42 <ais523> it has three modifier keys in the bottom-left: one marked Ctrl, one marked with the Windows logo, Alt, and Option (all on the same key), and one marked with Alt, the Apple logo, and that weird loopy thing that you see on Apple keyboards sometimes
16:06:52 <ais523> yes, that means two keys are marked alt
16:07:05 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: Ehm, anything's going to look ugly on that IMO, but my settings might work ok if you could get over your allergy of subpixel rendering
16:07:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, I can't I tried before
16:07:21 <mib_ueqe1k> ais523: Windows logo on an Apple keyboard?
16:07:21 <mib_ueqe1k> What?
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16:07:27 <AnMaster_ipv6> and I'm happy with what I have atm
16:07:29 <mib_ueqe1k> Also, that's the place of interest sign, aka the command-key.
16:07:29 <ais523> mib_ueqe1k: it isn't an apple keyboard I don't think
16:07:37 <ais523> I don't think it's a windows keyboard either
16:07:44 <fizzie> ais523: It's probably trying to be some sort of "works for both windows and OS X" keyboard, with dubious results.
16:07:53 <ais523> fizzie: that's my guess too
16:08:08 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: I'll uploaderate this screenshot anyway, so you can imagine you have a high-dpi display and imagine drooling.
16:08:20 <ais523> still, even on OSX, would you have command and apple on the same key/
16:08:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> <fizzie> "screen #0: dimensions: 2944x1280 pixels (795x345 millimeters)". That's rather far from correct, since the screen is not even actually rectangular. <--- ?
16:08:28 <mib_ueqe1k> ais523: they are the same key
16:08:29 <mib_ueqe1k> so yes
16:08:38 <asiekierka> Anyway, i'm going to work on something else
16:08:44 <mib_ueqe1k> Mine: "<apple> <command>"
16:09:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> I want one with the linux logo
16:09:05 <ais523> it's very confusing, anyway
16:09:14 <ais523> to start with I assumed they'd multiplexed alt and start
16:09:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> actually I don't
16:09:17 <ais523> so that tapping alt opened the start menu
16:09:22 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: Tux isn't very ... logo.
16:09:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> I want one with Meta and Super
16:09:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> ..
16:09:31 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, mascot then
16:09:59 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: I have one 1280x1024 TFT in a 90-degree angle (so it's actually 1024x1280), and another 1920x1200 TFT the right way around, so the xdpyinfo dimensions reports the bounding box, even though there's a 1920x80 pixels of unusable area at the lower-left corner.
16:10:04 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster_ipv6: added "command semantics" section now.
16:10:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, hah
16:10:18 <mib_ueqe1k> OK, this thing just won't upload.
16:10:26 <mib_ueqe1k> Anyone got, like, an ftp server?
16:10:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, DPI should be separate between screens
16:10:35 <fizzie> Also I have no idea how it calculated the physical size and DPI since they differ.
16:10:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, upload where?
16:10:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> and what
16:10:44 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: anywhere.
16:10:47 <mib_ueqe1k> my screenshot
16:10:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, ompload?
16:10:53 <AnMaster_ipv6> should work
16:11:01 <fizzie> It probably is separate, also, but there's some sort of combined value for non-multi-screen-aware apps.
16:11:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> there is some box on the web page
16:11:13 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: no <input type=file>s are working
16:11:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, what file format are you using?
16:11:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> also crazy..
16:11:35 <mib_ueqe1k> png. It's a problem with the VM.
16:11:39 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm
16:11:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> how strange...
16:12:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, I don't have that no, but couldn't you scp it to the host?
16:12:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> from the vm
16:12:36 <asiekierka> I'm thinking about an Esolang that uses only 2 shapes
16:12:39 <mib_ueqe1k> i could just use this "Shared Folders" thingy-bob-ma.
16:12:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, heh
16:14:18 <mib_ueqe1k> great, i have to install this proprietary shitware to get the shared folders working
16:14:21 <mib_ueqe1k> boy oh boy I want my quad core soon
16:14:32 <mib_ueqe1k> so I can run this natively...
16:14:44 <mib_ueqe1k> OS type: Xorg version: -------- ------------ Unbuntu 7.04 7.2.0 Ubuntu 6.10 7.1.1 Ubuntu 6.06 7.0.0
16:14:49 <ais523> messing around with virtualisation has taught me one interesting fact
16:14:50 <mib_ueqe1k> fucking up to date support you got ther
16:14:50 <mib_ueqe1k> e
16:14:52 <mib_ueqe1k> UNBUNTU
16:14:58 <mib_ueqe1k> fuuuuuuuuck you parallels corporation
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16:15:08 <mib_ueqe1k> ais523: oh?
16:15:10 <ais523> which is that mounting a drive simultaneously from two operating systems tends not to work
16:15:14 <ais523> at least with ext3
16:15:40 <ais523> that's a pity, it ought to, it's certainly an expressible operation with obvious semantics
16:15:45 <ais523> just the OSes seem unable to handle it
16:15:53 <ais523> (I tried with Knoppix + Ubuntu, last time)
16:16:05 <mib_ueqe1k> well, they'd start fucking each other's files
16:16:27 <mib_ueqe1k> grrrr, I can't figure out how to get this out of the box
16:16:59 <mib_ueqe1k> ais523: what's rutian's ip?
16:17:16 <ais523> mib_ueqe1k: I don't know
16:17:23 <ais523> I always acessed it via domain name
16:17:28 <ais523> *accessed
16:17:36 <mib_ueqe1k> yes well it'll have one of them soon
16:17:49 <mib_ueqe1k> since bogons needs you to have a reverse dns for a static ip
16:17:55 <ais523> why do virtualisers care about which OS you're virtualising?
16:18:08 <mib_ueqe1k> ais523: so they can integrate to let you move stuff out of the box
16:18:57 <ais523> I like the low-tech qemu method, but unfortunately simultaneous mounts would make it so much better
16:20:04 <fizzie> Some of those cluster-use-designed file systems support multiple mounting, I think.
16:20:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> simple solution
16:20:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> nfs
16:20:37 <fizzie> (So you can use them with something like the network-block-device, instead of using a NFS server.)
16:20:43 <mib_ueqe1k> nfs is never a solution
16:20:45 <fizzie> I don't think I usually associate NFS and simple together.
16:21:16 <fizzie> Although it's certainly a solution; most of the stuff at work and at the university works over NFS.
16:21:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> what?
16:21:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> it was simple to setup for me
16:21:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> took about 5-10 minutes of reading up on it and then about 5 more minutes to set it up
16:21:49 <fizzie> Have you tried to use it with systems that have very different UID numberings?
16:21:53 <mib_ueqe1k> Wanna hear a joke guys?
16:21:54 <mib_ueqe1k> NFS!
16:22:06 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, hm no, they have similar ones in fact
16:22:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> and I used nfs4 btw
16:22:37 <mib_ueqe1k> Screenshot.png 100% 728KB 727.9KB/s 00:00
16:22:41 <mib_ueqe1k> and it's actually 0kb on the server
16:22:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> (that took another 5 minutes of reading up on)
16:22:44 <mib_ueqe1k> WHAT IS THIS TRAVESTY
16:22:57 <fizzie> It's certainly far from simple internally, even if package-maintainers or such have made it simple.
16:22:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, used scp to copy it over?
16:23:07 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: It's actually hanging
16:23:10 <mib_ueqe1k> after printing that line
16:23:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> oh
16:23:14 <mib_ueqe1k> and the file is 0bytes on the server
16:23:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, how strange
16:23:36 <AnMaster_ipv6> take a screenshot from OS X of the screenshot in the vm?
16:24:06 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: Nice try, xzibit.
16:24:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, err?
16:24:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> what
16:24:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> why would it not work?
16:25:30 <fizzie> Speaking of network file systems, someone has managed to configure Samba on this NAS appliance box in a really strange way:
16:25:32 <fizzie> fis@eris:/e/video/misc$ umask 077
16:25:32 <fizzie> fis@eris:/e/video/misc$ echo x > foo
16:25:32 <fizzie> fis@eris:/e/video/misc$ umask 0
16:25:32 <fizzie> fis@eris:/e/video/misc$ echo x > bar
16:25:33 <fizzie> fis@eris:/e/video/misc$ ls -l
16:25:35 <fizzie> total 8
16:25:37 <fizzie> -rwxrwxrwx 1 root media 2 2009-03-27 07:57 bar
16:25:39 <fizzie> -rwx-wx-wx 1 root media 2 2009-03-27 07:57 foo
16:25:47 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: It would work but I'd have to crop it all after and fffffffffff.
16:25:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, that makes no sense
16:26:02 <fizzie> There's a "force create mode = 777" (presumably to avoid any permission-related issues) but for some reason it fails to force the 'read' bits there.
16:26:10 <fizzie> Yes, I agree.
16:26:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, hm ok
16:27:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, well why would ftp work any better? Not that I have any ftp
16:27:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> ftp server*
16:27:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, too much +x always make me irritated
16:27:50 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: I just wnt to know what the fuck is up.
16:28:00 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: You should've seen how it worked when I mounted with "-o nounix". I can't even describe it, it was that strange. (Making food now, semi-away.)
16:28:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, indeed it makes no sense since your current connection works
16:28:14 <ais523> fizzie: what does -o nounix do?
16:28:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, maybe you hit a bit pattern that cause a bug in the virtual ethernet card or something?
16:29:05 <mib_ueqe1k> Only one thing for it.
16:29:06 <mib_ueqe1k> uuencode.
16:29:27 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, can't find it in man mount.cifs at least
16:29:38 <fizzie> ais523: It's a quasi-documented flag for mount.cifs not to negotiate the CIFS unix extensions with the remote server.
16:29:48 <ais523> mib_ueqe1k: use shar, it's like uuencode only more high-tech
16:29:48 <fizzie> It's not in the man page, but it's documented somewhere elsewhere.
16:30:37 <mib_ueqe1k> ais523: uuencode is part of sharutils
16:30:52 <ais523> mib_ueqe1k: yep
16:30:59 <ais523> shar is a wrapper around uuencode
16:31:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, encode as a data url?
16:31:03 <mib_ueqe1k> /usr/share/themes/Human/gtk-2.0/gtkrc:82: Murrine configuration option "highlight_ratio" will be deprecated in future releases. Please use "highlight_shade" instead.
16:31:05 <ais523> with fun stuff like creating directories
16:31:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> and pastebin dataurl
16:31:09 <mib_ueqe1k> That sort of thing irritates me
16:31:18 <mib_ueqe1k> I get 3 of those errors every time something gtky happens
16:31:20 <mib_ueqe1k> Maybe I could patch the theme
16:31:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, you used to like dataurls iirc
16:32:51 <mib_ueqe1k> elliott@elliott-desktop:~/Desktop$ scp Screenshot.png.uuencode ehird@ ehird@'s password: Screenshot.png.uuencode 100% 1003KB 1.0MB/s 00:00
16:32:56 <mib_ueqe1k> STILL HANGS
16:32:58 <mib_ueqe1k> Life sux
16:33:08 <mib_ueqe1k> Okay, MEGA LAST TRY
16:33:11 <mib_ueqe1k> I will pastebin the uuencode
16:33:14 <mib_ueqe1k> decode it on my mac end
16:33:15 <mib_ueqe1k> and imgur.com it
16:33:16 <ais523> mib_ueqe1k: your password's "Screenshot.png.uuencode"?
16:33:20 <mib_ueqe1k> Then I will kill myself
16:33:22 <mib_ueqe1k> ais523: :-D
16:34:02 <ehird> NOTE TO SELF:
16:34:11 <ehird> Pasting 1MB of uuencode into a text field in a browser is EL DUMBO
16:34:17 <ais523> hahaha
16:34:30 <ais523> why didn't you just use imagebin.ca or somewhere like that?
16:34:39 <ehird> ais523: I told you -- just like scp, they hang
16:34:40 <ehird> and never upload
16:34:43 <ais523> ah
16:34:50 <ehird> so I uuencoded it --still hanged--
16:34:54 <ais523> does the same happen for small files?
16:34:59 <ehird> so now I'm pastie.org'ing the uuencoded, looking it up on my mac, uudecoding it
16:35:03 <ehird> and uploading it to imgur.com
16:35:07 <ehird> ais523: It's only 700kb
16:35:15 <ais523> yes, but I mean smaller still
16:35:20 <ais523> can you send a few bytes of binary, for instance?
16:35:43 <ehird> Almost certainly; I can load http pages.
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16:36:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm
16:36:51 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, maybe it has problems with large packages
16:36:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> that could explain why irc works
16:37:01 <ehird> No.
16:37:02 <ehird> Mibbit works.
16:37:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> well yes
16:37:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> but you don't send a lot of data in each package
16:37:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> it isn't bulk transfer
16:37:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, for example I had a problem some time ago with a bug in kernel ethernet drivers that made ssh and such work fine but caused massive rsync to hang
16:38:15 <ehird> This is fuckin' ridiculous. I'ma try the proprietary parallels crap
16:38:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> actually it wasn't ethernet driver, it was somewhere else in the stack
16:38:33 <AnMaster_ipv6> related to tcp window size iirc
16:38:44 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, linux auto tunes tcp window size
16:38:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> so do most other modern OS
16:44:25 * AnMaster_ipv6 ponders a SQL based funge space.
16:44:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> no not for cfunge
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16:45:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> it would be slow anyway, but have interesting properties
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16:45:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, what do you think?
16:46:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> for example you could SELECT to find next non-whitespace
16:46:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> allowing slowdown.b98 to be reasonably fast without tracking bounds
16:46:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> and other crazy things
16:47:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> meh, anyone there?
16:47:24 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: I thought you meant SELECT the operator from INTERCAL
16:47:27 <ais523> it might be interesting, though
16:48:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, efunge has some crazy code to get a block from funge space somewhat like that..
16:49:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, http://paste.lisp.org/display/78049
16:49:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> plan was to use it for o and such
16:49:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> also I have thought about ATHR (that was put on hold due to implementation issues)
16:49:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> and I have some ideas there..
16:50:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> it would mean changing the draft quite a bit
16:50:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> to be "optimistic non-synced funge space" or something like that
16:50:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> it would make it more esoteric (becuase it would be a nightmare to program in)
16:51:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> program with*
16:51:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> basically, if ATHR wasn't loaded everything would be normal, but when you start an ATHR thread the way they interact change
16:52:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> I would tread funge space as consisting of blocks
16:52:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> somewhat like cache lines
16:52:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> and only one thread can own a specific funge space block at a time
16:55:20 * ehird tries to optimize jvm startup tim
16:55:20 <ehird> e
16:55:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> it gets interesting when you change the semantics by marking a block as non-synced or something, each thread could modify it's local copy and what would happen when they were flushed back to funge space server would be interesting
16:56:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> and anyway, no changes would be visible right away
16:56:15 <AnMaster_ipv6> to other threads
16:56:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> not until the cache line was flushed back
16:56:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> err
16:56:36 <AnMaster_ipv6> funge space block
16:56:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> (but trying to access in that block would make it flush back usually, somewhat like cache lines)
16:57:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, do you think this is crazy or?
16:57:32 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: sorry, I'm busy with something else, I haven't been paying attention
16:57:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> meh ok
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17:03:08 <lifthrasiir> writing XUMUL spec is getting harder, should i specify how to parse invalid XML? :S
17:05:27 <ehird> lifthrasiir: no such thing
17:05:35 <ehird> the XML spec does not allow agents to process invalid xml
17:05:38 <ehird> if you do, you're breaking the spc
17:05:44 <ehird> (and also being sane, but xml isn't)
17:06:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, what about xml validators? they parse broken xml. But maybe they aren't agents. Or maybe the spec guys didn't know because they were _secret_ agents...
17:07:09 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: an xml validator is not an xml-processing UA
17:07:24 <ehird> also, validators report the first parsing error they see then give up
17:07:31 <ehird> thus, they comply with the spec
17:08:15 <ehird> http://www.lyx.org/images/about/insert_menu.png ← WOW those window decorations are ugly
17:08:17 <AnMaster_ipv6> not all validators do. Some try to list more than one error
17:08:26 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: no, that's only post-parsing
17:08:32 <lifthrasiir> ehird: initial document should be valid, but in XUMUL the document is modified in-place and if we don't allow broken XML at least for a while it become uninteresting
17:08:42 <ehird> lifthrasiir: then it isn't xml
17:08:44 <ehird> so don't call it xml
17:08:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, ah when validating against DTD or such you mean?
17:08:52 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: ye
17:08:52 <ehird> s
17:10:02 <lifthrasiir> ehird: if i call such internal document processed by the program is "similar to XML but possibly invalid", are you right?
17:10:21 <ehird> lifthrasiir: what you have isn't an xml language, if it deals with invalidity
17:10:22 <lifthrasiir> or "XML-like document", anyway
17:10:28 <ehird> it's a string-processing-language-that-starts-off-as-xml
17:10:59 <ehird> lifthrasiir: also, http://www.xsharp.org/
17:11:02 <ehird> (it's serious)
17:11:28 <fizzie> If you want to make it all-so-very-XML but allow self-modification, you might make the self-modification use a DOM-style API.
17:11:37 <ehird> aww
17:11:40 <ehird> they removed the freaky xml syntax
17:11:41 <ehird> :-(
17:14:22 <ehird> http://martiansoftware.com/nailgun/background.html ← ahh, this is exactly what i want
17:14:43 <ehird> last release 2005 >_<
17:14:59 <Ilari> Didn't XML spec allow parsers to attempt to continue parsing after first error trying to discover additional errors (but the parse has still failed)?
17:15:05 <ehird> Ilari: hm, maybe
17:15:11 <ehird> all I know is:
17:15:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, tell me when you read that bit above though
17:15:19 <ehird> they are forbidden from sending any more non-error data
17:15:20 <ehird> strictly
17:15:25 <ehird> no thanks to tim bray
17:15:26 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: probably not for a while, or ever, tell me when I'm less busy
17:15:31 <AnMaster_ipv6> ok
17:15:33 <lifthrasiir> okay, i agree to you ehird. i should look for another method so it can modify its own source and still remains valid.
17:15:41 <ehird> lifthrasiir: base something on the DOM ap
17:15:42 <ehird> i
17:15:49 <ehird> except... less, you know, Java
17:16:15 <lifthrasiir> ...
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17:35:13 <ehird> [[Video
17:35:13 <ehird> Interface to Apple's QuickTime for using a camera, playing movie files, and creating movies.]]
17:35:15 <ehird> — processing.org
17:35:22 <ehird> Aw c'mon, you don't have to depend on QuickTime for that.
17:45:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, apple wouldn't be happy if they heard you say that
17:45:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> ;P
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18:00:44 <ehird> Wow. I managed to make DejaVu Serif look non-ugly.
18:00:48 <ehird> Thought I'd see the day, never/
18:06:47 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
18:09:20 <lifthrasiir> ehird: http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/xumul okay, how about this?
18:09:37 <ehird> * It cannot contain any comments or CDATA sections. Just use normal text for it, since they will be ignored.
18:09:38 <ehird> it's not xml
18:09:44 <ehird> * It doesn't use XML namespaces. foo:bar is just a normal identifier, not to mention xml:lang, xmlns:foo and so on.
18:09:45 <ehird> also not xml
18:09:48 <ehird> * It should be coded in ASCII-compatible encodings. This excludes, for example, UTF-16 encodings.
18:09:50 <ehird> ditto
18:09:51 <lifthrasiir> it is just a restricted subset.
18:09:59 <ehird> right, but the point is that it's not xml
18:10:40 <ehird> A cell past the first cell, at offset -1, maps to 20th-to-the-infinity character. This means it doesn't actually map to any character in the original XML document, but if it is assigned, it is treated as like in the last character in XML document. For example, suppose that current document consists of <foo/>. If offset -1 is set to X, current document becomes <foo/> X, where the whitespace is actually infinitely long but treated as one whitespace. Simila
18:10:43 <ehird> rly if offset -2 is set to Y, current document becomes <foo/> Y X. This remains same to other out-of-bound offset, e.g. offset 10 for 199-character-long document, so if offset 0 is set to Z, current document becomes <foo/> Z Y X.
18:10:48 <ehird> Being able to set arbitrary text allows for non-xml
18:11:21 <lifthrasiir> Oops, that IS right. I probably change the rule.
18:11:43 <lifthrasiir> I probably have to change it*
18:12:36 <lifthrasiir> Ah, no,
18:13:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, do you know if Intel CPUs have different instruction dispatch units for SSE and x87?
18:13:53 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: no
18:13:57 <ehird> as in i don't know
18:13:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> ah
18:14:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm
18:14:00 <lifthrasiir> well, i thought that if the original document is <f/> and the program changes it to <f> < / f > it is correct, but i realized < and / cannot be separated.
18:14:07 <lifthrasiir> what the heck.
18:14:44 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, becuase if they do, using long double for about half of the math you do and double for the rest, and -mfpmath=sse,387 might in effect double the throughput I think
18:14:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> a crazy idea
18:14:51 <AnMaster_ipv6> and I can't even test it on cfunge
18:15:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> because it doesn't use much floating point
18:16:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> lifthrasiir, I'd go the other way instead. Allowing full SGML, not a subset of xml
18:16:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> that way you can have short tags and other fun stuff
18:18:59 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster_ipv6: good idea! but sgmllib in python standard library is removed in python 3... :p
18:19:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> lifthrasiir, why do it in python?
18:19:53 <lifthrasiir> (and sgml is quite hard to parse correctly iirc)
18:21:58 <lifthrasiir> oh, i found http://www.jclark.com/sp/. looks fine except that it's written in C++ :p (just kidding!)
18:22:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> meh I dislike C++
18:23:23 <lifthrasiir> well, but anyway i have to modify the existing parser or write new parser from scratch since it have to manage character offset of callers
18:23:33 <lifthrasiir> it has*
18:23:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> ah
18:24:23 <lifthrasiir> that's one reason for using a subset of XML
18:26:09 <fizzie> If you just need to know where you are, you can always use expat and the CurrentByteIndex property. It might get a bit tricky with self-modification, though.
18:27:08 <fizzie> Personally I'd write an XML language so that the interpretation part would also be defined in terms of the DOM, as would the tree-modification. But whatever floats your XML-boat, I guess.
18:28:20 <ehird> woo
18:28:22 <ehird> shared folders works
18:28:26 <ehird> screenshot time vsoon
18:28:52 <ehird> fizzie++
18:28:56 <ehird> xml operating on strings is stupid
18:29:00 <ehird> and xml operating on xml is, uh, xslt :P
18:29:10 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: i was adding all the strange things for keeping the name (XUMUL) but anyway thanks.
18:29:19 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, that took quite some time...
18:29:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> I was wondering what you were talking about
18:29:31 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Yes, well, i was the doing the other the stuff
18:29:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> had forgot it all
18:29:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> the other the stuff?
18:29:45 <ehird> Yes.
18:29:45 <lifthrasiir> i dislike xslt, and dislike xml operating on xml generally
18:29:50 <ehird> I'm the talking like the fizzie.
18:30:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> The Other... The Stuff! Soon at a lame tagline generator near you
18:30:08 <fizzie> ehird: XSLT doesn't really operate on the XSLT style-sheet itself, but maybe that's such a small difference.
18:30:19 <ehird> fizzie: you could make it
18:31:54 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: http://imgur.com/FLORQ.png. Some windows look better than others. Only looks good ona n LCD. May not look good on an LCD that isn't high-dpi. May cause shock from the font-rendering-differing effect thing that everyone gets. Do not use while pregnant.
18:31:59 <ehird> Er.
18:32:01 <ehird> It resized it down.
18:32:06 <ehird> Forget that.
18:32:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, link broken?
18:32:27 <ehird> Sec.
18:32:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> or times out
18:32:31 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: no.
18:32:35 <ehird> your internet is broken.
18:32:38 <Deewiant> Worked fine for me.
18:32:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, meh it was just very slow
18:32:45 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: I said
18:32:48 <ehird> it's resized down
18:32:51 <AnMaster_ipv6> yeah
18:32:52 <ehird> so you can't see it properly
18:32:54 <ehird> so i'm rehosting it
18:32:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> try ompload
18:33:00 <ehird> no, try xs.to
18:33:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> never heard of that one before
18:33:13 <ehird> which, while having a shitty design, isn't designed as a shock-site hoster.
18:34:16 <ehird> Meh, it's broken now
18:34:21 <ehird> Fine, omploader.
18:35:00 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: http://omploader.org/vMWhnNw. Some windows look better than others. Only looks good ona n LCD. May not look good on an LCD that isn't high-dpi. May cause shock from the font-rendering-differing effect thing that everyone gets. Do not use while pregnant.
18:35:27 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, with pixel order?
18:35:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> which*
18:35:33 <ehird> RGB.
18:35:37 <ehird> Horizontal.
18:35:42 <ehird> Like everyone else apart from fizzie's upside down monitor.
18:35:44 <ehird> Er, sideways
18:35:46 <ehird> monitor
18:36:10 <fizzie> I think the Nintendo DS Lite screen is BGR, but I could be remembering wrongly.
18:36:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, I found BGR to be least bad when it comes to colour bleeding on this monitor...
18:36:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> but still bad
18:36:40 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Have you looked at your subpixels?
18:36:46 <ehird> If they're not BGR, using BGR is efeating the point.
18:36:49 <ehird> Entirely.
18:36:52 <ehird> Since it's not subpixel any more.
18:36:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> what?
18:37:06 <ehird> >_<
18:37:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> also I can't see individual sub pixel elements
18:37:13 <ehird> You have to use the pixel order of your monitor.
18:37:17 <ehird> That's the whole point.
18:37:21 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: get a magnifying glass
18:37:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, yep, I know that is the point
18:37:39 <ehird> Anyway, your monitor is RGB.
18:37:42 <ehird> Nobody manufactures anything else.
18:37:55 <ehird> Apart from nintendo based on fizzie-rumours.
18:38:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, tried with magnifying glass, still can't see the sub pixels
18:38:37 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: The only leakage in my screenshot is: the Avant Window Navigator body text, the Fishbowl monospaced tagline, and ever so slightly on the fishbowl body text
18:40:14 <fizzie> The fishbowl text is something I did notice to be a bit bluey-red-y. I'm not sure how much it would annoy.
18:40:17 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, I see colour bleeding everywhere in that
18:40:54 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Either your eyes are so good that you could be making a lot of money just using them now, or you're sitting an inch away from your screen, or your monitor is one of the 3 non-RGB subpixel orders in the world, or it's a CRT.
18:40:58 <ehird> Pick one.
18:41:03 <fizzie> It's rather horrible in the sideways-up monitor, though.
18:41:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> actually as far as I can make out, sub pixels are BRG here, or possible RBG
18:41:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> hard to say
18:41:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> or any other in fact
18:41:14 <ehird> RBG?
18:41:16 <ehird> Um, no.
18:41:18 <ehird> That doesn't exist.
18:41:22 <ehird> Now does BRG...
18:41:24 <ehird> *Nor
18:41:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, indeed. I can't see any sub pixels
18:41:35 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Are you sure you don't have a CRT.
18:41:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, it's way flatter yes.
18:41:58 <ehird> fizzie: IMO, the avant one is much worse than fishbowl
18:42:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> AL2017
18:42:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> is the model
18:42:03 <ehird> and I browsed for a while and it wasn't too botherating
18:42:16 <ehird> fizzie: If you want to make it use the full hinting to fixerate that some more, you can ++ the font size above 16px
18:42:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> Acer AL2017
18:42:41 <ehird> You're just a hallucinating kind of person then
18:42:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, anyway I can't make out sub pixle
18:43:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> pixels*
18:43:02 <fizzie> The subpixel order should be rather easy to see if you do (in Gimp in 800%-zoom or something) a file which has a single-pixel vertical line of alternating blue and red pixels, and then look at it at native size, with the magnifying glass or otherwise.
18:43:06 <AnMaster_ipv6> but I can see the colour bleeding
18:43:18 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: If you don't have subpixels of course you see bleeding.
18:43:22 <fizzie> At least here it's very easy to see which pixels (red or blue) are on the left side and which on the right.
18:43:27 <ehird> But really I don't think so.
18:43:35 <ehird> It's probably your monitor's DPI being awfully low.
18:43:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, yep
18:43:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> it is low
18:43:50 <ehird> Here's a nickel; go buy a decent monitor.
18:44:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, nickel is slang for money?
18:44:14 <ehird> ...
18:44:18 * ehird explodes with laughter
18:44:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> ?
18:44:45 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_(United_States_coin)
18:44:54 <ehird> Do you know _anything_ about non-Swedish things?
18:45:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, thought US used dollar and cents
18:45:12 <ehird> HAHAHAHAHA
18:46:53 * lifthrasiir seriously thinks about ehird exploding
18:46:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, still it says this nickel is 5¢
18:47:12 <ehird> lifthrasiir: I explode literally quite often
18:47:15 <ehird> there's a little me inside of me
18:47:24 <ehird> and it grows to be the size of me when I explode leaving only the little m
18:47:24 <ehird> e
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18:47:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, not my fault they use funny names when they mean "5 cent coin"
18:47:33 <AnMaster_ipv6> .
18:47:33 <ehird> you may see this as a metaphor for man babies
18:47:46 <fizzie> I assume you have that TFT plugged in with a DVI cable, though? How much would the analog-blur-effect affect that sort of stuff, anyway?
18:47:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, VGA
18:47:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> no DVI supported
18:47:59 <oklopol> i misunderstood ehird too, for a sec, thought nickel was slang for "tip"
18:48:07 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: geez
18:48:12 <oklopol> then i realized maybe you just meant nickel
18:48:17 <ehird> oklopol: yeah but you're detuned from reality in a funny way, I mean it's oklopolific
18:48:19 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, not supported on video card indeed.
18:48:26 <lifthrasiir> oklopol: so do i.
18:48:44 <oklopol> lifthrasiir: you still do?
18:48:46 <ais523> isn't nickel the material they're mostly made of?
18:49:02 <lifthrasiir> okay, so did i.
18:49:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, also I have tested this monitor with both dvi and vga cables before (on a different computer. Saw no difference
18:49:39 <fizzie> "75 % Copper, 25 % Nickel" says the linked page.
18:49:54 <fizzie> Well, except the nickel-free nickels of ww2.
18:50:01 <lifthrasiir> that's funny.
18:50:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> bbl
19:07:01 <Ilari> AFAIK, one of the most signaficant sources of analog blurring is the video card.
19:10:00 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:10:42 <Ilari> Also, isn't there both Analog DVI and Digital DVI (some systems might support both)?
19:12:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> back
19:13:21 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, hi
19:13:50 <ais523> hi
19:14:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, so what did you think about the idea for fungespace coherency?
19:14:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> (for ATHR)
19:14:37 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: very busy atm, I'll talk to you later
19:14:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> ok
19:17:12 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
19:26:32 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:37:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, btw efunge should be run on R12B-5 to be mycology compatible, I believe (from changelog reading) it will break in 0-byte handling under R13A (that is an alpha version), and for now I'll just say R13 isn't supported until I have time to test R13 and fix any bugs there.
19:38:23 <Deewiant> And how do I know what I have
19:38:44 <AnMaster_ipv6> Erlang (BEAM) emulator version 5.6.5 [source] [64-bit] [async-threads:0] [hipe] [kernel-poll:false]
19:38:53 <AnMaster_ipv6> 5.6 means R12
19:39:25 <Deewiant> So you just have to know what the major version numbers mean? :-P
19:39:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm
19:39:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> wait I'm wrong
19:40:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, you know because the tarball you downloaded was called otp_src_R12B-5.tar.gz or such
19:40:19 <Deewiant> No I don't because I didn't download a tarball
19:40:29 <Deewiant> I have programs which do these things for me
19:40:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, ok I think it is the version of the application kernel that matters (erlang application)
19:41:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> $ ls -d /usr/lib/erlang/lib/kernel*
19:41:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> /usr/lib/erlang/lib/kernel-2.12.5
19:41:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> that is R12B-5
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19:42:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, anyway in R13 all console IO will be UTF-8, previously it was all ISO-latin-1.
19:42:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, and there is no way around it. Erlang is semi-closed-world style.
19:43:23 <Deewiant> Sure there is, you can decode/encode UTF
19:44:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, no, because R13's console IO code will throw exceptions on non-UTF it seems
19:44:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> anyway I can read the file still
19:44:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> depends on how I do it it seems
19:44:38 <Deewiant> Yees, but if you want to output non-UTF you just encode it into UTF first
19:44:41 <Deewiant> And likewise for input
19:44:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> yes
19:46:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, anyway erlang's console IO will output most non-printable as ^@ or whatever when running in interactive mode. This is a feature (again can't be turned off).
19:46:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> oh and interactive mode is one valid way to start efunge in
19:49:51 -!- oerjan has quit ("Globus").
19:50:01 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: and you whine about closed world systems
19:50:23 <ehird> at least fully closed systems let you do things flexibly from inside
19:50:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, true. I never claimed this was good.
19:50:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, but now that I started I have to bite the bullet :P
19:50:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> (I believe that is the idiom?)
19:52:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> "ASCII English text, with CRLF, CR, LF line terminators"
19:52:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> huh
19:53:06 <Deewiant> Wut
19:53:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> oh I managed to mess up
19:53:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> I thought the file was in LF and wanted to convert to CR
19:53:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> but it was CRLF
19:54:21 <AnMaster_ipv6> so recode added something strange
19:54:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> that explains it
19:55:41 <Deewiant> I'm amused by the fact that efunge of all interpreters doesn't support t
19:56:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, well it doesn't currently indeed
19:56:31 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, plan was to add ATHR
19:56:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> anyway that hit some issues and was put on hold
19:56:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> $ ./efunge ~/src/cfunge/trunk/tests/refc-invalid-deref.b98
19:56:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> No REFCCFER
19:56:44 <AnMaster_ipv6> interesting
19:56:48 * AnMaster_ipv6 fixes his test code
19:57:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> anyway I just pushed a fix in efunge for form feed handling
19:58:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, anyway the threading in erlang is async and message passing
19:58:21 <Deewiant> Yes, I am well aware of this
19:58:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, I feel supporting t would be wrong in it
19:58:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> o will be supported at some point
19:58:39 <AnMaster_ipv6> t won't
19:58:42 <Deewiant> How 'wrong' :-P
19:59:01 <Deewiant> How is it more wrong than supporting any other feature of Befunge-98
19:59:27 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, because it doesn't allow me to take advantage of the message passing concurrency in erlang
19:59:30 <ehird> Deewiant: quick, make pervasive use of t in mycology
19:59:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, it is optional
19:59:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> in the spec
19:59:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: And my point was, neither does the rest of Befunge :-P
20:00:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, ATHR will be better. I guess I can have a lock step compat mode that sends a token around to support t
20:00:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> it sounds like a fun way to implement t
20:01:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> and remember, efunge isn't about speed, as long as I don't have to wait too long I'm happy with efunge
20:01:21 <Deewiant> efunge seems decently fast to me
20:01:32 <Deewiant> Takes a while to shutdown but I guess that can't be helped
20:01:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, indeed it can't, it is because erlang need to stop internal processes
20:01:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> well you could bypass it, but then I couldn't send back exit code either afaik
20:02:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> (I think I tested)
20:02:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm efunge trunk locks up on jumpwrap.b98 for some reason, will have to debug that
20:03:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: efunge is way faster than pyfunge FWIW
20:03:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> hah
20:03:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, well it is decent if you use ERL_COMPILER_OPTIONS='[inline,native,{hipe,[o3]}]' make clean all
20:03:34 <Deewiant> Over twice as fast including the shutdown time
20:03:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: I did
20:03:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, it is horribly slow without using native/hipe
20:04:08 * Deewiant checks what AnMaster_ipv6 thinks is 'horribly slow'
20:04:19 <lifthrasiir> heh,
20:04:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, I don't like waiting 30 seconds for mycology
20:04:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> or 20 or so
20:04:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> I mean, 5-15 is ok for efunge
20:04:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> but I got other stuff to do
20:04:51 <Deewiant> I see almost no speed difference, did I muck something up
20:04:59 <Deewiant> I'm in supervisor-tree FWIW
20:05:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> oh ok, supervisor-tree is known buggier, a feature branch for ATHR work
20:05:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, if there is spurious output at start/end (or in middle) in that branch I will just point you to trunk for now
20:06:21 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, and you need to do make clean between
20:06:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> and make sure the env variable is no longer set
20:06:39 <Deewiant> I did
20:06:47 <Deewiant> Speed difference is around 0.1s
20:06:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> ah
20:06:53 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, erl
20:06:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> what does the first line say
20:06:59 <Deewiant> Dominated by the 1+s it takes to shutdown
20:07:05 <Deewiant> Erlang (BEAM) emulator version 5.6.5 [source] [64-bit] [smp:4] [async-threads:0] [hipe] [kernel-poll:false]
20:07:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm ok
20:07:11 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:07:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> it does have hipe
20:07:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> so not that then
20:08:03 <Deewiant> Hmm, pyfunge doesn't have a way of disabling fingerprints so it's not fairly benchmarkable
20:08:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, here it is 2 seconds vs. 7 seconds (trunk) and 3 seconds vs. 14 seconds in the supervisor branch
20:08:15 <Deewiant> But then efunge doesn't either
20:08:20 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: use -f ''.
20:08:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Both around 1.5s here in supervisor
20:08:25 <lifthrasiir> (maybe)
20:08:29 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:08:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, yes it has, called "edit source"
20:08:35 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: I tried that, it crashes :-P
20:08:42 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: ImportError: No module named fp_
20:08:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, well supervisor branch can make use of smp
20:08:43 <lifthrasiir> oops, :S
20:08:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> potentially
20:08:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> you probably need to pass erlang some option
20:08:58 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: I also tried just specifying 'standard' but it didn't seem to change anything
20:09:00 <lifthrasiir> hmm i didn't check for null argument... well.
20:09:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> and the message passing overhead may make it slower
20:09:08 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep").
20:09:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: 'Edit source' isn't an option
20:09:32 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: it will disable other fingerprints (e.g. STRN) except for standard one. you mean it wasn't?
20:09:36 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, well just comment out in the listing of fingerprints in src/efunge_fingerindex.erl
20:09:37 -!- tombom has joined.
20:09:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> so only
20:09:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> lookup(_Fingerprint) -> notfound.
20:09:45 <AnMaster_ipv6> is left
20:09:53 <AnMaster_ipv6> of the lines starting in "lookup"
20:09:59 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: Still runs HRTI, TOYS etc
20:10:10 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: Oh right, by standard you mean the Cat's Eye ones
20:10:14 <Deewiant> So it did work
20:10:17 <lifthrasiir> yes
20:10:20 <Deewiant> There's just no way of disabling them all
20:10:33 * lifthrasiir thinks of misnamed fingerprint module
20:10:48 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: I would've expected a per-fingerprint list and not a category list :-)
20:10:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, in efunge branch overhead is rather large, thus I won't add it, adding a option for tracing led to a 0.5 second slowdown or so when I tested
20:11:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> 0.5-1 second
20:11:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: You don't need to branch at every instruction, it's just a check when you do ( or )
20:11:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> so for tracing, you should uncomment the relevant line and recompile
20:11:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> :D
20:11:40 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: i should have done so, but didn't do yet :p
20:11:53 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: No worries :-)
20:12:09 <Deewiant> It's not like being easily benchmarkable is what Funge interpreters should aspire to...
20:13:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> oh interesting
20:13:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm
20:13:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm
20:13:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> D in FIXP behaviour questionm
20:13:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> question*
20:14:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> (D = random number)
20:14:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> what if the parameter is 0
20:14:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> efunge currently reflects and cfunge pushes 0
20:15:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, are both correct?
20:15:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> it seems undef
20:15:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Why would it reflect
20:15:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm ok
20:16:17 <Deewiant> Anyway, I guess the interpreters in current speed order are: cfunge, RC/Funge-98, CCBI, efunge, pyfunge, Language::Befunge
20:17:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> random:uniform(0) throws an exception
20:17:16 <Deewiant> Although I'm a bit hesitant to include RC/Funge-98 in that list since it still uses stuff like gets() :-P
20:17:23 <Deewiant> It's full of buffer overflow bugs
20:17:29 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: i pushed the version contains --disable-fprint option, and it takes 1.7s for mycology with psyco enabled
20:17:55 <lifthrasiir> ..and 2.7s without psyco enabled
20:17:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, anyway I recommend efunge trunk atm for stability, the cool new stuff in the supervisor branch is so far only under the hood and it is buggy
20:18:12 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: Around 1.7s for me too
20:19:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, I fixed two bugs the last few minutes that have not been ported to the supervisor branch yet
20:19:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Their speed is about the same for me, 0.6s of CPU time and 1.6 in total
20:20:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> right
20:20:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, still it is less buggy atm.
20:23:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, btw for make in efunge -j have absolutely no effect
20:24:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> because it actually just runs erl -make
20:24:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> (not for make clean though)
20:28:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, about speed there above btw... Language::Befunge is slow?
20:28:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> I never tried it
20:30:16 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:31:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> hi ais523
20:31:11 <ais523> hi
20:31:16 <ais523> and this time, I'm not busy
20:31:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: By your standards, definitely. :-P
20:31:31 <ais523> although I've been awake for 28 hours straight, so may not be coherent
20:31:39 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, heh, well I was talking about funge space coherency protocol before
20:31:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> hah
20:33:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> it might solve the issue I had with implementing ATHR, along with defining that bounds may not be exact (even for wrapping purposes, when other threads writes cause bounds to extend) if ATHR is loaded and a sync instruction have not been executed
20:33:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> it will always see it's own writes in a coherent way
20:33:44 <ais523> how could bounds be wrong for wrapping purposes?
20:33:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> but between processes some stuff updates lazily
20:33:53 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, remember ATHR?
20:33:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: It takes 12s on Mycology here
20:33:59 <ais523> oh, if one thread writes to another's Lahey-line
20:34:07 <ais523> beyond where it would have bounced
20:34:07 <Deewiant> So yes, it's by far the slowest
20:34:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, or anywhere else
20:34:10 <ais523> and yes I remember ATHR
20:34:15 <ais523> Deewiant: which implementation?
20:34:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, oh my that is bad
20:34:29 <Deewiant> ais523: Language::Befunge, the Perl one.
20:34:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, anyway your computer is way faster
20:34:44 <ais523> ah, I've been meaning to mess with that
20:34:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> you got much better speed even for efunge
20:34:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Yes, I know. :-P
20:34:53 <ais523> is it on cpan, or does it need to be downloaded from elsewhere?
20:34:59 <Deewiant> It's on CPAN.
20:35:12 * ais523 starts CPAN invocations
20:35:34 <ais523> $ sudo chown -R ais523:ais523 ~/.cpan
20:35:52 <ais523> $ cpan -i Language::Befunge
20:35:53 <Deewiant> What, you normally have it root:root? :-P
20:36:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> can't you install it per-user?
20:36:08 <ais523> Deewiant: no, bits keep on ending up root:root by accident anyway
20:36:27 <ais523> the chown is a bit of black magic for using cpan I developed, it seems to work
20:36:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> I never install software outside home without using my distro's package manager..
20:36:55 <fizzie> ~/.cpan is not very outside home.
20:36:57 <ais523> oh, I don't install outside home or /usr/local without package manager
20:37:01 <ais523> but this is inside home
20:37:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> I don't use /usr/local, well on freebsd the package manager uses that
20:37:26 <ais523> besides, cpan is a package manager, just a confusing and buggy one
20:37:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> but on linux my /usr/local is just some empty directories
20:37:46 <ais523> on Debian-based systems, /usr is for the package manager, except /usr/local is guaranteed package-manager free
20:38:05 <ais523> so it's a good place to test things like my C-INTERCAL packaging
20:38:25 <fizzie> I have some systems-administrationary custom scripts in /usr/local/sbin/ it seems.
20:38:33 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, well *bsd is: / and /usr are for base system /usr/local for ports collection (the package manager)
20:38:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> /usr/home contains your home directories
20:38:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> (/home is a symlink)
20:39:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, /root/bin for me
20:39:26 <ais523> $ perldoc Language::Befunge
20:39:28 <ais523> seems to be working
20:39:37 <ais523> I had to switch to root and back though as it was trying to install man pages
20:39:44 <ais523> then I needed another chown to clear up
20:40:36 <AnMaster_ipv6> R13 will have wxErlang hm
20:40:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> interesting
20:40:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> better than the old Tk based thingy at least
20:43:13 <ais523> "Can't locate UNIVERSAL/require.pm in @INC"
20:43:19 <ais523> I'm having CPAN problems, as usual
20:44:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> why use cpan then
20:45:16 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: you have to
20:45:20 <ehird> the alternatives are far worse
20:45:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm
20:45:27 <ehird> i.e., either no perl libraries, or chasing 5 billion dependencies
20:45:31 <ehird> and yes, there are always that many dependencies
20:45:36 <ehird> perlists are promiscuous
20:45:42 <ais523> ehird: even with cpan, you have no perl libraries and are chasing 5 billion dependencies
20:45:55 <ehird> ais523: except you can get cpan to chase them for you
20:45:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm
20:45:57 <ehird> if you're lucky
20:46:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> usually I just install the relevant part using my distro's package manager
20:46:23 <ais523> ehird: it usually gets about half
20:46:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> it seems to have lot of perl packages
20:46:26 <ais523> which is an improvement, I suppose
20:46:31 <AnMaster_ipv6> perl-archive-tar
20:46:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> and what not
20:46:38 <ehird> grr, one thing that irritates me about jvm conventions: the package convention is com.foo.app, so you _need_ a domain
20:46:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> lots of them certainly
20:46:57 <ehird> brb →
20:47:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, you could use org.eso-std
20:47:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> ;P
20:47:06 <lifthrasiir> or com.example.
20:47:07 <ehird>
20:47:09 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: I don't own that domain.
20:47:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> except you can't any more
20:47:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> :P
20:47:22 <ehird> lifthrasiir: You must use a domain you own.
20:47:23 <ehird>
20:48:18 <lifthrasiir> what if java package name can contain URN or so? urn.uuid_6e8bc430_9c3a_11d9_9669_0800200c9a66?
20:48:30 * lifthrasiir gives up thinking
20:48:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> lifthrasiir, they aren't urls to begin with
20:48:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> just reverse domain names
20:48:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> so no
20:49:15 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster_ipv6: of course, but i said "what if" :p
20:50:41 <fizzie> It's not a "need" since it is just a convention.
20:51:14 <lifthrasiir> the convention makes the need to comply with.
20:51:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> ..
20:51:29 <lifthrasiir> (which can be ignored sometimes)
20:51:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> <lifthrasiir> the convention makes the need to comply with. <-- wut?
20:52:05 <lifthrasiir> i mean that widespread convention becomes de facto standard by itself
20:52:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> ah
20:52:21 <lifthrasiir> even though it doesn't need to be so
20:53:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, what about relative question rates. That is relative % ending in question marks to all lines said by that person. Combine ehird and tusho btw
20:53:39 <fizzie> Admittedly the convention is documented in the Java Language Specification, so it's a rather strong convention.
20:53:47 <fizzie> "You form a unique package name by first having (or belonging to an organization that has) an Internet domain name, such as sun.com."
20:54:44 <ais523> yay, Language::Befunge is working
20:54:53 <ais523> I only had to chase up 7 or 8 of the dependencies by hand
20:55:02 <fizzie> I should probably write some sort of framework for log-analysis. But I guess I can quickly hack that relative-question-percentage for you, if it's that interesting.
20:55:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, sounds like a crappy package manager
20:55:12 <ais523> cpan isn't really a package manager, although it acts like one
20:55:18 <ais523> it doesn't have an uninstall feature, for one
20:55:19 <Deewiant> ais523: Is your cpan broken or something?
20:55:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, yes very interesting
20:55:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, since I talk so much I believe the numbers mentioned yesterday are not really relevant
20:55:44 <ais523> Deewiant: yes, it tries to write outside my home dir and errors, then on the next run decides either the last one worked so it won't try again, or the last one didn't work so it won't try again
20:56:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> <ais523> it doesn't have an uninstall feature, for one <-- crappy. I won't use it then certainly
20:56:24 <Deewiant> Sounds like you have it configured somehow incorrectly
20:56:25 <ais523> hmm... which fingerprint is REFC?
20:56:33 <Deewiant> One of Cat's Eye's
20:56:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, the memory leakage one
20:56:41 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: it makes it a bit hard to run Perl programs as a result
20:57:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, no: gentoo portage have lots of perl packages as gentoo packages that are properly install/uninstallable
20:57:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> the recommended way is to write gentoo packages for any missing
20:57:21 <ais523> makes sense
20:57:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> there is in fact an automated tool
20:57:32 <ais523> Ubuntu package the bits of cpan they depend on, but I think they don't do it automatedly
20:57:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, called g-cpan before, but replaced with something else now
20:57:48 <ais523> talking about Perlists about the gentoo cpan thing, apparently it doesn't work in every case, or something
20:57:51 <AnMaster_ipv6> forgot details since I never use it
20:57:56 <ais523> but then, neither does cpan
20:58:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> ah no it is still g-cpan
20:58:19 <AnMaster_ipv6> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/perl/g-cpan.xml
20:58:19 <Deewiant> cpan's worked just fine for me on Linux
20:58:23 <Deewiant> Windows is another story, of course
20:58:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, if it can't uninstall I'm not using it
20:58:41 <Deewiant> Your loss
20:58:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> I want to have a easy to maintain system
20:58:52 <ais523> Deewiant: does Mycology test deep y as a pick instruction?
20:58:56 <Deewiant> ais523: Yes
20:59:12 <ais523> I can't find the bit in the output where it reports on it
20:59:19 <ais523> ah, found it now
20:59:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> thus every file outside /home /etc /var /usr/portage /root and a few more places has to belong to a package in the distro package manager IMO
20:59:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> that is a rule I use
20:59:55 <ais523> it's nice to have a second /usr tree for testing things that shouldn't be interfered with by the manager
21:00:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, why would I need that?
21:00:19 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: what if you're writing a package manager yourself?
21:00:34 <ais523> or just an install/uninstall script designed to work in a /usr tree as well as in the home dir
21:01:02 <ais523> anyway, my jqbef98 seems to pass latest mycology
21:01:04 <Deewiant> ais523: chroot into $HOME/foo which contains usr?
21:01:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, well the latter makes no sense, it is up to package manager to handle it, it should be trivial to write a package, if it isn't then the package manager is too hard to use.
21:01:49 <Deewiant> ais523: Hmm, where'd you get jqbef98, I just grabbed the example from the perldoc and used that
21:01:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> for gentoo I usually need a 5-10 lines long file, and 5 minutes of work.
21:01:53 <ais523> hmm... no wait, jqbef98 fails mycouser I think
21:01:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> for arch about the same
21:02:01 <ais523> Deewiant: from cpan, it installed as part of the package
21:02:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> but more like 15 lines there iirc
21:02:10 <Deewiant> ais523: Didn't for me. Oh well.
21:03:04 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: Here is top-20 of question-%s for everyone who's spoken more than 1000 lines during 2006-2008. (Without the filtering there's quite an amount of 100%s.) → http://zem.fi/~fis/q.txt
21:03:42 <Deewiant> Heh, EgoBot.
21:03:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> see
21:03:51 <ais523> Huh?
21:03:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> it's not so bad for me at all
21:04:07 <fizzie> This time it was "contains a ? anywhere".
21:04:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, where did ehird end up
21:04:34 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: Number 44, with 3.2 %.
21:04:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> meh
21:04:53 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: He talks even more than you, after all.
21:04:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> true
21:05:15 <GregorR> "With Jergen's, who needs the sun?"
21:05:21 <GregorR> Sometimes commercials are immeasurably stupid.
21:05:48 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: you're cheating, you're asking questions without a question mark at the end
21:05:49 <Deewiant> Sometimes?
21:06:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, yes I started that recently<ascii code 63>
21:06:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> err
21:06:13 <ais523> actually, I often typo ? as /, so I'm cheating just as much
21:06:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: That wasn't a question.
21:06:33 <AnMaster_ipv6> s/<ascii code 63>//;s/yes/yes<ascii 62+1>
21:06:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> there
21:06:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> ;P
21:06:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> /^s/s/$/\//
21:07:10 <ais523> err... that has too many forward slashes
21:07:15 <ais523> shouldn't some of them be escaped?
21:07:19 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, no
21:07:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, that is quite different...
21:07:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> it is matching line first
21:07:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> to the one starting with ^s
21:07:42 <ais523> oh, I see
21:07:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> /^blah/s|foo|bar
21:07:52 <ais523> that's sed not Perl
21:07:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> and you must use forward slashes there
21:07:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, well duh
21:07:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> I always use sed
21:08:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> never perl
21:08:07 <ais523> and in Thutu, it would be /^s/$/=\//
21:08:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> so that's like... expected
21:08:37 <SimonRC> ais523: how does the power of thutu compare to that of sed?
21:08:39 <AnMaster_ipv6> ;ais523, why did you think I didn't use sed;337**,@
21:08:52 <ais523> SimonRC: they're both turing-complete
21:09:27 <ais523> thutu needs to be wimpmoded to really be useful, although it's a relatively nice language, I should detarpit it and remove some of the insanities
21:09:31 <SimonRC> I mean expressive power
21:09:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, still, why perl(3 3 7 * * p)
21:09:36 <ais523> and I may end up with a language that's worth using
21:09:41 <SimonRC> ah, ok
21:09:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> why did you even assume I would use perl...
21:09:45 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, !
21:09:53 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: Perl sets the standard for regular expressoins
21:10:01 <ais523> anyway, I'm going home now, bye everyone
21:10:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:10:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> ...
21:10:21 <AnMaster_ipv6> I didn't use pcre, I used s syntax, which means it is sed when it comes to me...
21:10:37 <Deewiant> "s syntax" is present in Perl.
21:10:38 <SimonRC> ditto
21:10:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, yes it is, but when I do it it is sed
21:21:53 <lifthrasiir> once perl added (?...) extension syntax to regexp, and perl 5.10 adds (*...) "verb". i wonder perl 5 will ever add (+...).
21:22:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> lifthrasiir, um?
21:22:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> isn't (?) for (<?) and such
21:22:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> or something
21:23:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> I forgot syntax of lookaround
21:23:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> <!? <? !? and some more
21:23:18 <lifthrasiir> (?=...), (?!...), (?<=...), (?<!...)
21:23:21 <AnMaster_ipv6> ah
21:23:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> err
21:23:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> that seems wrong
21:23:32 <lifthrasiir> and even there is unrelated (?>...)
21:23:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> ?= ?
21:23:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> I remember 4 variants in PCRE
21:24:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> (negative|positive) look(behind|ahead)
21:24:36 <lifthrasiir> < is for lookbehind, = is for positive and ! is for negative.
21:24:45 <AnMaster_ipv6> ah
21:24:53 <AnMaster_ipv6> what is the > one then
21:24:57 <lifthrasiir> and (?>...) is for atomic match
21:25:06 <AnMaster_ipv6> atomic match...
21:25:15 <lifthrasiir> i.e. do not backtrack into this parenthese
21:25:16 <lifthrasiir> s*
21:25:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> as in, no concurrency issues<q>
21:25:19 <AnMaster_ipv6> ah
21:25:58 <lifthrasiir> once Larry Wall criticizes this as a bad huffman coding... :p
21:26:27 <AnMaster_ipv6> what
21:27:12 <lifthrasiir> well, perl 6 has a new regexp syntax which shortens such constructs which is used quite often but too long to type
21:27:47 <lifthrasiir> but i still think perl 6 showed new dimension of esoteric language... heh
21:28:22 * lifthrasiir away, finally
21:30:54 <ehird> 20:56 AnMaster_ipv6: <ais523> it doesn't have an uninstall feature, for one <-- crappy. I won't use it then certainly
21:30:59 <ehird> CPANPLUS has uninstall
21:31:07 <ehird> 20:55 fizzie: I should probably write some sort of framework for log-analysis. But I guess I can quickly hack that relative-question-percentage for you, if it's that interesting.
21:31:11 <ehird> Log analysis framework? Count me in.
21:31:24 <ehird> Gah, ais is gone.
21:31:29 <ehird> I was hoping for some micro-optimization help.
21:31:40 <Deewiant> Wouldn't AnMaster be the one to ask? :-P
21:31:45 <ehird> also, 28% of sgeo is quetsions
21:31:46 <ehird> I knew it
21:31:54 <ehird> I predicted a large % all along
21:31:55 <ehird> since like last year
21:32:11 <ehird> Deewiant: no, ais523's microoptimizations give a better speed boost and are less obnoxiously _posix_fuseless
21:32:15 <ehird> IME
21:32:16 <Deewiant> Heh
21:32:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> <ehird> CPANPLUS has uninstall <-- interesting
21:32:42 <Deewiant> ehird: Can cpanplus uninstall stuff cpan has installed?
21:32:48 <ehird> yes
21:32:53 <ehird> i think
21:33:13 <ehird> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/04/03/sleep-may-prepare-you-for-tomorrow-by-dissolving-todays-neural-connections/ ← Humans need concurrent gc
21:33:39 <Deewiant> ehird: What are you micro-optimizing?
21:33:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, I may still be able to help microoptimising
21:33:59 <ehird> Deewiant: I haven't written it yet, but it'll only be ~100 lines -- a tripcode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripcode) cracker
21:34:03 <ehird> well, bruteforcer
21:34:16 <ehird> there's a few but I have some microoptimization ideas & I want to take advantage of multi-core systems
21:34:42 <ehird> ("For example, 2channel translates <, >, and " to &lt;, &gt;, and &quot;." ← I love perverse edge-case programming errors becoming defacto standards)
21:35:33 <Slereah_> 2channel < wat
21:35:47 <ehird> Slereah_: Wat is greater than 2channel?
21:35:54 <Slereah_> Oh, it's a discussion about tripcode
21:36:08 <Slereah_> It seemed weird to see 2ch in that window
21:37:17 <Slereah_> Really, most of the time, you don't even need a tripcode cracker
21:37:26 <Slereah_> Most people use insecure tripcodes
21:37:45 <Slereah_> There's a list of all letter-based tripcodes
21:37:46 <ehird> Yes, well, it's a fun thing to optimize.
21:37:57 <Slereah_> So you just have to google it
21:38:27 <Slereah_> Not to mention the very common tripcodes :o
21:38:38 <ehird> I wonder what the character set of crypt() output is
21:38:49 <ehird> I don't think it's all printable ascii chars, there's no space for instance
21:39:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, simple, use the SSE8 PWCJIS to convert to JIS to begin with
21:39:15 <AnMaster_ipv6> ;P
21:39:27 <Slereah_> It's probably something like ASCII from 33 to 126
21:39:39 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: SHIFT jis. And the article then goes on to say that 4chan doesn't do the shift-jis conversion, so it's probably not worth bothering.
21:39:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> oh
21:39:51 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm ok
21:40:01 <Deewiant> Hooray for de facto standards.
21:40:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, anyway SSE is so feature bloated in recent versions it wouldn't surprise me..
21:40:10 <Slereah_> If you want to learn about tripcodes, you can go to /soc/
21:40:19 <ehird> Slereah_: I used to frequent there ages ago
21:40:26 <ehird> Okay, so there's 48398230717929318249 unique tripcode outputs. I think.
21:40:48 <ehird> Now to figure out what -illion that is.
21:41:16 <ehird> Um, alotillion.
21:41:28 <Slereah_> 48.398.230.717.929.318.249 -> 48 quintillions
21:41:31 <Deewiant> 48 398 230 717 929 318 249 so... yeah
21:41:45 <Deewiant> Assuming you're US, of course.
21:41:52 <Slereah_> Yeah
21:41:58 <Deewiant> Or modern UK, or whatever crap.
21:42:03 <Slereah_> It's 48 trillions otherwise
21:42:05 <Deewiant> Trillions.
21:42:07 <Deewiant> Yes.
21:42:07 <oklopol> the us system is retarded
21:42:21 <ehird> oklopol: it's the world wide system now
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21:42:28 <ehird> quintillions. lovely
21:42:28 <Deewiant> Only in English.
21:42:32 <Slereah_> Is not
21:42:34 <Slereah_> Yeah
21:42:35 <Deewiant> Well, and other languages.
21:42:38 <Deewiant> But not all.
21:42:43 <ehird> well duh
21:42:44 <AnMaster_ipv6> well Swedish doesn't use the US system there
21:42:51 <oklopol> ehird: so is english, and it's retarded too.
21:43:13 <Deewiant> According to Wikipedia, besides English-speaking countries only Brazil and Wales use the short scale
21:43:21 <ehird> Hmm, I wonder what the best way to utilize multiple cores is
21:43:29 <ehird> maybe start thread 1 at 0, thread 2 at (half of tripspace)
21:43:29 <ehird> etc
21:43:34 <Deewiant> And 9 others use the short scale + milliard
21:43:36 <SimonRC> ehird: todo what?
21:43:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> what do you call 1,000,000?
21:43:40 <Deewiant> And greece uses myriad
21:43:41 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: million
21:43:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Million.
21:43:44 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm
21:43:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> what do US call it?
21:43:50 <oklopol> Deewiant: your facts are nicer than ehird'sa
21:43:51 <oklopol> *ehird's
21:43:52 <SimonRC> million too
21:43:56 <ehird> SimonRC: Crack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripcode s. Learnt to read :P
21:43:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> ah yes it breaks above
21:43:57 <ehird> *Learn
21:44:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> what is the next step above million
21:44:08 <ehird> billion
21:44:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> miljard in Swedish
21:44:12 <Deewiant> oklopol: Thanks, I guess.
21:44:13 <Slereah_> milliard :o
21:44:20 <ehird> Slereah_: Nobody says milliard.
21:44:22 <ehird> :
21:44:22 <ehird> :P
21:44:24 <oklopol> miljardi
21:44:28 <Deewiant> Million, milliard, billion, billiard, trillion, trilliard, etc.
21:44:31 <SimonRC> 10^9 = billion
21:44:32 <Deewiant> ehird: I actually do.
21:44:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, agreed
21:44:39 <oklopol> billiard?
21:44:40 <ehird> Deewiant: You don't count as a person :|
21:44:40 <SimonRC> Deewiant: where are you from?
21:44:44 <oklopol> that's used?
21:44:45 <Deewiant> SimonRC: Finland.
21:44:50 <Deewiant> oklopol: Sure, it goes all the way up.
21:45:01 <oklopol> vigintilliard
21:45:24 <ehird> SimonRC: keyspace is 72057594037927936 actually
21:45:25 <ehird> sez wp
21:45:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, well vigintillion already sounds silly so meh...
21:45:35 <ehird> which is a fucktonion
21:45:40 <Deewiant> Vigintilliard would be 10^123
21:46:52 <oklopol> unde- and duode- are used to get the ones before it, but i'm a bit fuzzy on the details, not having any idea where those come from.
21:47:12 <oklopol> and is nonillion 10^6^9?
21:48:35 <Deewiant> In the long scale, yes
21:49:12 -!- Judofyr has joined.
21:49:16 <oklopol> well yes the sensible scale, naturally
21:49:20 <oklopol> btw
21:49:27 <oklopol> it was a question, where are the names from
21:49:28 <oklopol> latin?
21:50:01 <Deewiant> Obviously, yes
21:50:22 <oklopol> why is it obvious?
21:51:01 <ehird> "Take the second and third characters of the string obtained by appending H.. to the end of the input. "
21:51:05 <ehird> I love how meaningless this is.
21:51:07 <ehird> It's a clusterfuck
21:51:22 <Deewiant> oklopol: Except that it isn't. :-P
21:52:04 <Deewiant> E.g. decillion = 10^6^10 where the latter 10 is from Latin decem, 10.
21:52:21 <oklopol> well i don't know latin, so a bit hard to know; i guess i have to admit it was the only possible choice tho
21:52:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, the H.. is for handling very short strings I guess
21:52:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> that could explain it
21:52:35 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: yes, but why 'H..'
21:52:37 <ehird> it's hilarious
21:52:45 <oklopol> i guessed from oktaavi -> nooni -> desimi
21:52:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, agreed.
21:52:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> it is still stupid
21:52:53 <ehird> WACKY JAPS
21:53:05 <oklopol> (octave, octave+1 -interval, octave+2 -interval)
21:53:24 <oklopol> also could've guessed from simply deci i guess
21:53:28 <oklopol> cuz it's like 1+
21:53:29 <oklopol> *10
21:53:32 <oklopol> BUT I DIDN'T
21:53:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, maybe tripecode then
21:54:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> ...
21:54:44 -!- M0ny has quit ("PEW PEW").
21:55:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, prod
21:55:21 <ehird> what
21:55:26 <Deewiant> oklopol: I'd say the most obvious is that it's quadrillion and not tetrillion or something.
21:55:31 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, it should have been called tripecode
21:55:34 <ehird> why
21:55:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=tripe
21:55:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> second sense
21:55:45 <AnMaster_ipv6> ..
21:55:59 <ehird> It shouldn't have been called that because that's not funny.
21:56:00 <Slereah_> It is called $Bec0e&,ec&e%w(B :3
21:56:00 <Deewiant> Tripe ration
21:56:03 <ehird> Next.
21:56:04 <oklopol> Deewiant: you mean it's obvious it is the former, or that based on that, latin is obvious?
21:56:17 <oklopol> i don't see why quadrillion is more obvious than tetrillion
21:56:20 <Deewiant> oklopol: Based on that, Latin is obvious.
21:56:21 <fizzie> Deewiant: I tried to figure some sort of oerjan-class pun related to tripecode and the % character, but couldn't.
21:56:24 <oklopol> right.
21:56:33 <oklopol> not to me, i don't know latin.
21:56:37 <Deewiant> fizzie: :-)
21:56:58 <oklopol> where's tetri- from?
21:57:37 <Deewiant> oklopol: Greek tetra-, tetr-: the number four as a prefix
21:57:48 <oklopol> not japanese?
21:57:48 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: Given that it's in a file, I couldn't really justify the "head -n 20" in q.txt, so http://zem.fi/~fis/q.txt now has the complete list of everyone who's spoken >1000 lines in those logs.
21:58:07 <Deewiant> oklopol: No, four in Japanese is shi or yon.
21:58:18 <ehird> fizzie: YOU FORGOT TO MERGE ZUFF AND EHIRD
21:58:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, for bsmnt you should count "..." as a qustion mark
21:58:32 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: you too.
21:58:33 <ehird> '..'
21:58:34 <ehird> '..'
21:58:36 <ehird> etc
21:58:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, no need to do that
21:58:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> it is fine as it is
21:58:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> it shows ehird's split personality
21:58:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> or something
21:59:24 <fizzie> It's a bit crappy in other ways too. There's also oklopol/oklofok, curiously next to each other; very consistent question-percentage there.
21:59:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> heh
21:59:34 <fizzie> Same goes for Pikhq/pikhq.
21:59:50 <ehird> clearly we need the Loggitude framework
22:00:12 <lament> yay, i'm #23
22:00:16 <fizzie> I had somewhere a log-parsing script that combinated nicks based on hostmasks, nick similarity wrt. edit-distance, and some other random heuristics, but I seem to have lost it.
22:00:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, no... the log ness framework you mean
22:00:28 <Deewiant> So fungot /does/ ask questions.
22:00:28 <fungot> Deewiant: 18. some hard-boiled things can be cracked." he unfolded the paper as he spoke, ' is the fnord" ( making little marks on the ground as she spoke, and rested his head against her shoulder. " what size will you be?"
22:00:49 <fizzie> Hah, that's a question.
22:00:57 <oklopol> lament: you should put that on a t-shirt
22:01:19 <ehird> $ loggitude -e'map { my @lines = search(-from => $_); my @questions = filter { /?$/ } @lines; something to output percentage here } @users'
22:01:23 <ehird> You get the idea.
22:01:33 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, loggness
22:01:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> ...
22:01:36 <ehird> no
22:01:38 <ehird> loggitude
22:01:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> no!
22:01:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> why would loggitude be better than loggness
22:02:06 <AnMaster_ipv6> loggness is a really bad pun after all
22:02:11 <ehird> so is loggitude
22:02:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> while loggitude sounds enterprisy
22:02:14 <ehird> logs, attitude
22:02:17 <Deewiant> loggness is 8.3
22:02:19 <ehird> loggitude.
22:02:20 <Deewiant> So it gets my vote
22:02:25 <ehird> logitud
22:02:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, :D
22:02:30 <ehird> logitude even
22:02:39 <ehird> anyway I'm writing it so fu
22:02:40 <ehird> :P
22:02:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, well if you are actually writing it
22:03:10 <ehird> sure, I just need to get my log-scraper done
22:03:21 <ehird> then anyone can analyze #esoteric logs with two invocations:
22:03:33 <ehird> $ perl download-esoteric-logs.pl
22:03:39 <ehird> $ perl loggitude.pl -e'...'
22:03:54 <ehird> (download-esoteric-logs.pl will update your logs if you already have some, btw, it only downloads what you need)
22:03:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> that would be $ logness-fetch esoteric
22:04:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> or something
22:04:05 <ehird> (also rename to YYYY-MM-DD and changes times to UTC)
22:04:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> or even logness-sync
22:04:17 <ehird> (I have the renaming part done and some of the downloading)
22:04:31 <AnMaster_ipv6> loggness*
22:05:15 <AnMaster_ipv6> or for Deewiant loggness fetch esoteric
22:05:52 <ehird> Separate scripts for separate tasks.
22:07:00 <fizzie> Yay, I have gotten recomputed 34/39ths of the Octave stuff I messed up last night.
22:07:29 <ehird> fizzie how come all you ever do is awesome computing processing stuff
22:07:35 <ehird> i'm a kid and I don't have that much fun :<
22:07:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, git has all in one
22:08:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> yet you like git
22:08:06 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: It didn't used to.
22:08:08 <ehird> Used to be git-foo.
22:08:13 <ehird> Anyway, all git operations are linked
22:08:22 <ehird> They all manipulate the same datastore in much the same ways
22:08:31 <ehird> But downloading logs vs processing logs are entirely separable tasks
22:08:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: It didn't used to. <-- used or use<q>
22:08:59 <ehird> s/used/use/
22:09:03 <fizzie> It's the reporting bias; I do not much advertise the times when I clean up the sewage input pipe in the bathroom, or other pleasant things like that.
22:09:03 <ehird> And if I required strict adherence to my philosophies I'd never use anything.
22:09:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> ah
22:09:14 <ehird> fizzie: do it, so I can feel better about myself
22:09:41 <fizzie> Will try to remember to.
22:10:16 <ehird> Fuck the JVM. Fuck Parrot. I'm compiling all my VM-langs to Infocom's Z-machine in future: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-machine
22:10:23 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
22:10:38 -!- neldoreth has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:10:38 <ehird> :-D
22:10:44 -!- neldoreth has joined.
22:10:52 <fizzie> ZBefunge was probably the first Befunge interp I used, actually.
22:11:01 <ehird> wait
22:11:08 <ehird> zbefunge compiles befunge to z machine code?
22:11:09 <Deewiant> It's quite crap
22:11:10 <ehird> ok, that's hot
22:11:20 <fizzie> No, it's just an interpreter written to work in a Z machine.
22:11:23 <Deewiant> No, it's a befunge interpreter written in Z-Machine code
22:11:29 <ehird> oh
22:11:31 <ehird> still
22:11:31 <fizzie> Also Befunge-93 only and so on.
22:12:10 <fizzie> Seems that there's a ZedFunge which does Funge-98.
22:12:29 <ehird> Deewiant: New mycology contender :P
22:12:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> when I heard zbefunge I first thought "zsh"
22:12:45 <AnMaster_ipv6> not "z-machine"
22:12:52 <Deewiant> That's the crap one IIRC
22:13:03 <Deewiant> I may misremember.
22:13:18 <fizzie> At least ZBefunge's debugger had a nice text-based view of where the IP was going.
22:13:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> <Deewiant> That's the crap one IIRC <-- thought that was either RC/Funge or FBBI
22:13:55 <ehird> RC/Funge is crap?
22:13:57 <Deewiant> There are other crap ones.
22:14:02 <ehird> I know you dislike the code, but it works, doesn't it?
22:14:02 <Deewiant> It's somewhat crap.
22:14:05 <ehird> It passes Mycology?
22:14:12 <Deewiant> It uses static buffers and gets()
22:14:13 <ehird> I think comparing RC/Funge to FBBI is giving MKRY a great disservice
22:14:16 <Deewiant> It'd be trivial to make it segfault.
22:14:45 <Deewiant> It's good as long as you don't feed it too much data :-P
22:14:52 -!- tombom has quit (Connection timed out).
22:15:22 <ehird> a world wide network of toaster
22:15:23 <ehird> s
22:16:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, seems ehird is a RCS fanboy for unknown reason...
22:16:35 <ehird> I'm not a fanboy.
22:16:37 <Deewiant> Er, no.
22:16:48 <ehird> The code sucks. I agree.
22:17:05 <ehird> I just don't like how you continually say that RC/Funge sucks and MKRY can't implement befunge properly etc etc
22:17:14 <ehird> Why not invite him in and say that?
22:17:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> well he should come on irc himself
22:17:55 <ehird> For what?
22:17:56 <ehird> to be insulted?
22:18:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> if he is interested he would be in here
22:18:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> in befunge in general I mean
22:18:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, add some tests to mycology that make rc/funge segfault?
22:18:31 <ehird> 22:18 AnMaster_ipv6: if he is interested he would be in here
22:18:31 <ehird> 22:18 AnMaster_ipv6: in befunge in general I mean
22:18:32 <ehird> bullshit
22:18:44 <ehird> he'd be in here if he's interested in talking about the topics we talk about in here with the people who are in here at the times he would come in here
22:18:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: He might just increase the buffer sizes ;-P
22:19:06 <Deewiant> Not worth it anyway
22:19:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, yeah would be his style
22:19:19 <oklopol> ugh static buggers
22:19:54 <oklopol> (typo)
22:20:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, I thought it was intentional oko..
22:20:35 <ehird> it probably was.
22:20:48 <oklopol> well mostly it was a typo.
22:20:54 <Deewiant> I don't see a typo
22:21:01 <oklopol> static buffers are against my face.
22:21:08 <oklopol> Deewiant: well there was one
22:21:15 <Deewiant> Oh, you meant to say buffers
22:21:20 <oklopol> something like that maybe
22:21:22 <Deewiant> The sentence is perfectly parseable as-is
22:21:31 <oklopol> ohh
22:21:37 <oklopol> buggers, like from bug
22:21:38 <oklopol> hah
22:21:42 <oklopol> that's actually pretty good
22:21:53 <Deewiant> Or just, you know, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bugger?jss=0
22:22:01 <oklopol> i thought like, you know, buggers
22:22:01 <Deewiant> "an annoying or troublesome thing"
22:22:06 <oklopol> yes
22:22:17 <oklopol> but with that meaning i'm not sure it made that much sense
22:22:27 <Deewiant> "Damn those static things"
22:22:30 <ehird> LOL OLOL LOL
22:22:31 <Deewiant> OWTTE.
22:22:36 <fizzie> But the hedgehog can never be buggered at all.
22:22:43 <oklopol> Deewiant: yeah well okay sure
22:22:54 <oklopol> i guess i have to agree my fingers outsmarted me again.
22:23:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, OWTTE?
22:23:54 <Deewiant> http://www.justfuckinggoogleit.com/?q=owtte
22:24:52 <ehird> Deewiant: what gfx card did you say you had again
22:24:59 <Deewiant> ehird: Radeon HD4870.
22:25:06 <ehird> yar.
22:25:23 <fizzie> The lack of comment makes me wonder if AnMaster_ipv6 got the Pratchett reference. Although I guess it's not very commentable.
22:25:24 <ehird> I'm trying to get the best passively cooled one I can from the limited choice because I can't be fucked to mess around with coolers and shit
22:26:12 <fizzie> I have in these machines a passively cooled GeForce 7600-something and a 8600-something, but I am in no way recommending these, and it's very much not bleeding-edge high-performance 3D-powerfest.
22:26:14 <Deewiant> I don't know ~anything about passively cooled ones
22:26:39 <ehird> Yes
22:26:44 <ehird> I was just figuring out what yours was
22:26:46 <ehird> So that I can exclude it
22:26:50 <ehird> From my lookings
22:27:20 <ehird> Looks like it'll be 512 MB ATI Radeon 4550 PCI-Express x16 GDDR3
22:27:33 <ehird> Any gamers in here are welcome to take a few second break to laugh at me heartily for saying that
22:27:43 <ehird> "Such a wimpy thing! Couldn't even play Wolfenstein 3D!"
22:27:56 <Deewiant> ehird: That's worse than my previous graphics card
22:28:07 <ehird> Deewiant: :-D What was your previous one?
22:28:12 <Deewiant> A Radeon X800XL
22:28:23 <ehird> and I assume your opinion of it is "crap"
22:28:34 <Deewiant> Well, for certain values of "crap"
22:28:58 <Deewiant> I managed to play through Fallout 3 with that one
22:29:11 <ehird> Deewiant: The most graphically intensive game I've ever played is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Clancy's_Splinter_Cell_(video_game)
22:29:20 <ehird> So I don't think it matters which card I pick, really.
22:29:31 <Deewiant> That didn't run well on the card before my X800XL
22:29:38 <Deewiant> Which was...
22:29:44 <Deewiant> GeForce 3 Ti200, that's right
22:29:56 <ehird> Deewiant: But the card before your X800XL is worse than a 512mb Radeon 4550, right?
22:30:05 <ehird> My current card:
22:30:08 <ehird> ATI Radeon X1600:
22:30:08 <ehird> Chipset Model:ATY,RadeonX1600
22:30:08 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, it is.
22:30:09 <ehird> Type:Display
22:30:12 <Deewiant> Er, was.
22:30:12 <ehird> Bus:PCIe
22:30:13 <Deewiant> Whatever.
22:30:14 <ehird> PCIe Lane Width:x16
22:30:16 <ehird> VRAM (Total):128 MB
22:30:23 <ehird> So, my X1600 is better than the 4550? Heh.
22:30:34 <Deewiant> ehird: About the same, I think.
22:30:39 <ehird> Ah.
22:30:50 <ehird> I'd get a non-passively-cooled one if I wasn't worried about it whirring all the time.
22:30:59 <ehird> I guess it's just the high-end cards that do that, but I don't really like risking things.
22:31:02 <Deewiant> http://www.jathardware.com/2/video.html (warning: Finnish) sorts GPUs by power, approximately
22:31:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> what?
22:31:16 * AnMaster_ipv6 was afk
22:31:32 <Deewiant> I'll start saying 'what?' every time I come to the computer too
22:31:41 <ehird> Deewiant: Well, whatever I get has to be less powerful than yours since you say it whirrs even when idle
22:32:01 <Deewiant> ehird: It has to be anyway, since I have the next-most powerful card AMD currently sells.
22:32:07 <Deewiant> The most powerful being the X2 version.
22:32:07 <ehird> heh
22:32:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, what to <fizzie> The lack of comment makes me wonder if AnMaster_ipv6 got the Pratchett reference. Although I guess it's not very commentable.
22:32:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> ...
22:32:16 <ehird> So... {512MB,1GB} 4850, 512mb {4830,or 4550}
22:32:44 <ehird> The small selection I have to pick from is because apparently they assume everyone buying their top performance product is a gamer.
22:32:44 <fizzie> I think my passively-cooled one is a 8600 GT, which is there between GeForce 7800 GS and Radeon HD 2900 GT.
22:33:07 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: It was a hedgehog song reference, before your owtte query.
22:33:12 <ehird> I _could_ get the lowest I can and replace it with one I buy myself, but fuck, I don't want to do more than switch the power supply :-P
22:34:59 <fizzie> Phew, the relief is palpable: the scripts I've written for that AI tournament university course thing I've been talking about every now and then seem to be working.
22:35:04 <ehird> http://www.silentpcreview.com/ ← Huray, someone else is as obsessive as me!!
22:35:12 <ehird> "* Anechoic Test Chamber"
22:35:14 <ehird> Er, make that more obsessive.
22:35:39 <Deewiant> No, just more scientific. :-P
22:35:47 <ehird> Oh, I thought they meant like
22:35:52 <ehird> They actually use them in one of those
22:35:55 <ehird> Which would be lol
22:36:00 <Deewiant> :-D
22:36:15 <fizzie> There are other reviewers too that are very silently-oriented, but I've relied a lot on silentpcreview too.
22:36:29 <oklopol> fizzie: what tournament? tell everything you've told sofar.
22:36:40 <ehird> I just love the sound of an idle room, really.
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22:37:26 <ehird> I guess the silent pc guys watercool everything
22:37:38 <fizzie> oklopol: Just read http://wiki.tkk.fi/display/T934400/Home if you can't wait; have to go away for 15 minutes or so.
22:38:04 <oklopol> i'm not in a hurry, have tons to read and exam tomorrow
22:38:11 <oklopol> (wait actually 10 pages left)
22:38:22 <ehird> fizzie: see? your life is unbelievably fun.
22:38:27 <ehird> this is solid proof.
22:38:54 <Deewiant> fizzie: Gah, why Java
22:39:09 <Deewiant> Well, the answer is 'because the professor said so'
22:39:10 <oklopol> but i will probably do one more quick reread, i confused a detail about lzj and lzmw last time
22:39:11 <Deewiant> But still.
22:39:19 <ehird> One day we'll invent completely silent systems that make no noise ever.
22:39:25 <ehird> Even when you use up 100% resources.
22:39:30 <ehird> *
22:39:31 <ehird> *lie
22:40:10 <Deewiant> I guess what I wanted to ask was 'is there any particular reason they specify Java'
22:40:51 <oklopol> our profs say something like "it's used a lot in companies", usually
22:40:57 <oklopol> i can't say i see the relevance of that
22:41:16 <oklopol> or "university policy"
22:41:24 <ehird> oklopol: they're trying to teach you to go work at boringbigcorp.
22:41:53 <Deewiant> oklopol: That's a reason to teach it, not to force its use in a course about concepts not tied to any language
22:42:07 <oklopol> Deewiant: hmm true.
22:42:28 <SimonRC> my AI courses allowed any language
22:42:41 <ehird> I think I might know why I hate loud computers.
22:42:55 <ehird> I think I probably have tinnitus, so silence = faint whining
22:43:02 <ehird> So quiet noise + faint whining = annoying
22:43:41 <oklopol> Deewiant: i think the actual reason is those profs who aren't actually programmers at heart don't really know anything but java, since it's the official lang; hard to accept other languages
22:44:05 <Deewiant> Those profs aren't going to actually read the students code, are they?
22:44:10 <Deewiant> +'
22:44:53 <Deewiant> :-P
22:45:13 <oklopol> i don't really know, maybe you can guess next
22:45:38 <Deewiant> The TAs might read the code but I don't see any good reason for that, in turn
22:45:55 <fizzie> Deewiant: Actually it's "because students said so".
22:46:05 <fizzie> Deewiant: It was still Scheme two years ago.
22:46:07 <oklopol> reason for what, *ta's* reading code, or *reading code*?
22:46:15 <ehird> fizzie: students dislike scheme?
22:46:16 <Deewiant> fizzie: Why force any particular language?
22:46:17 <ehird> How shit.
22:46:21 <Deewiant> ehird: Of course, they're idiots on average.
22:46:27 <ehird> >:(
22:46:30 <fizzie> Deewiant: And just about everyone complained about Scheme, since it's no longer used for teaching.
22:46:43 <Deewiant> ehird: But it also helps that it's not taught.
22:46:58 <ehird> Bah.
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22:47:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: Because the point is to provide a system for the students so that they can focus on the presumably-AI-related-parts of the assignment instead of generic code-writing.
22:47:04 <ehird> Give them a fucking copy of the little schemer.
22:47:32 <Deewiant> fizzie: So, in fact, any language would be okay as long as it can hook into what you provide?
22:48:31 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, yes, if it can compile to JVM bytecode so that it works in the tournament system (which needs a sandboxy thing and so on), it's okay. We had someone use Scala-or-whatsitcalled last year.
22:48:46 <ehird> Scala is nice.
22:48:50 <Deewiant> Alright, then that page is just misleading.
22:48:59 <ehird> It's like Haskell + Ruby + Java.
22:49:01 <Deewiant> I might do the course next year and learn Clojure while I'm at it.
22:49:06 <ehird> Ew
22:49:33 <oklopol> ehird: i doubt most students are at a level where they can learn a new language by themselves as they go
22:49:34 <fizzie> Deewiant: Assuming it still exists next year. Markku (the professor responsible for it) is retiring, I think. At least he said something like that.
22:49:52 <Deewiant> ehird: Scala seems somewhat lame to me, just a mishmash of some stuff but nothing really cool
22:49:58 <Deewiant> Maybe I haven't looked into it enough?
22:50:03 <Deewiant> fizzie: Markku who?
22:50:03 <ehird> Deewiant: It looked like that to me until today
22:50:07 <ehird> I dug into it
22:50:08 <fizzie> Deewiant: Markku Syrjänen.
22:50:10 <ehird> It's really quite nice
22:50:19 <ehird> It is a mishmash, but it's a smooth mishmash
22:50:28 <ehird> There's not like different segments of piled on features like D
22:50:29 <oklopol> wait was Deewiant at helsinki too
22:50:48 <Deewiant> Not at Helsinki University, no.
22:50:54 <Deewiant> In Helsinki, yes. :-P
22:51:04 <oklopol> err okay, where then?
22:51:09 <Deewiant> TKK+HSE.
22:51:11 <ehird> Deewiant: Its syntax is very lenient, very DSL-y, scripting code is just concise and simple like you'd expect, java libraries don't feel out of place, and its functional features are pretty much on par with haskell's, sans lazy evaluation
22:51:12 <oklopol> are you a bartender
22:51:20 <ehird> Deewiant: Also -- it has really good concurrency, Actors and the like
22:51:20 <Deewiant> Nope. :-P
22:51:35 <oklopol> Deewiant: is that some kinda university
22:51:43 <Deewiant> oklopol: No, that's two.
22:52:01 <fizzie> Deewiant: Anyway, the page is "misleading" because non-Java languages aren't officially supported by the course personnel (i.e. me), so I don't go out of my way to advertise that possibility, just to keep things simple.
22:52:02 <oklopol> okay, i don't want to know the gory details
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22:52:17 <ehird> Deewiant: The only thing you can't do too well is scripts that run for pretty much 0 time and are called really often (of which there aren't many *at all*), since the JVM startup time penalty kicks in
22:52:23 <oklopol> but, err, for some reason i thought you lived in tampere, which is kinda weird, i usually remember this stuff
22:52:26 <Deewiant> fizzie: Meh, I'd just add a disclaimer.
22:52:39 <Deewiant> oklopol: Do you?
22:52:52 <oklopol> no turku
22:53:11 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, I find the JVM somewhat repellent for that reason.
22:53:22 -!- Judofyr has joined.
22:53:31 <ehird> Deewiant: How many scripts do you write that (1) finish instantly and (2) are called really often?
22:53:41 <ehird> I can't really think of any apart from things that you should do e.g. as shell aliases
22:53:44 <oklopol> Deewiant: are you like a second year student?
22:53:56 <ehird> Deewiant: Even a little bit of processing will offset the jvm cost
22:53:59 <Deewiant> oklopol: Yep, for some values of 'like'
22:54:17 <Deewiant> ehird: Sure, but it's still noticeable compared to straight-to-executable languages.
22:54:37 <Deewiant> I mean, most things I write are the type that process for less than 1 second.
22:54:44 <oklopol> Deewiant: i guess the value i was going for was null.
22:54:59 <ehird> Deewiant: The JVM startup time is just like 0.1s
22:55:02 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, you're such a pedant. Personally I can't say I see a reason to say "Java (or any other language that can compile Java VM bytecode, but this option is not officially supported by course personnel)" when I can simply say "Java" and have the one people who wants to do anything "special" ask me in IRC about it.
22:55:19 <ehird> Deewiant: I mean, even a script that processes for 0.1s almost offsets the JVM startup cost
22:55:31 <Deewiant> fizzie: I just believe in not hiding options. :-P
22:55:50 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, it runs in 0.2s then, so only 50% of the time is startup.
22:56:13 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, but when it comes down to it, a 0.2s script does _not_ feel 50% more responsive than a 0.1s script
22:56:16 <ehird> Humans aren't that simple
22:56:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: It was a hedgehog song reference, before your owtte query. <-- didn't see the line.
22:56:30 <Deewiant> It does if you run it 5 times.
22:56:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> that's why
22:56:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> and yes I was afk again
22:57:05 <ehird> Deewiant: So the majority of programs you write are scripts that take 0.1s or less to run and are called many times in quick succession?
22:57:19 <ehird> Deewiant: I really think that's quite a minority; and most of those "programs" could probably be done as shell functions.
22:57:25 <ehird> I agree JVM startup time could be better
22:57:30 <ehird> but I don't think it's that much of an issue.
22:57:42 <Deewiant> ehird: The majority of programs I've written are either quick scripts or esolang interpreters, which tend to be tested in that fashion.
22:57:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, same here
22:58:09 <ehird> quick scripts: Usually take more than 0.1s to execute. 0.5-1s, I'd say, on average. Which offset the JVM startup time just fine.
22:58:15 <AnMaster_ipv6> I hardly ever wrote long running programs apart from some irc bots
22:58:17 <Deewiant> Besides that I've written libraries.
22:58:23 <ehird> Also, since the JVM itself is blazing fast, post-startup, what would take 1s in Perl could take 0.7s in the JVM
22:58:30 <Deewiant> And the remaining stuff I've written is in the minority.
22:58:38 <ehird> Esolang interpreters: Your test cases are too trivial.
22:58:40 <Deewiant> ehird: And 0.3s in D or whatever.
22:58:45 <Deewiant> ehird: Mycology? :-P
22:58:55 <ehird> Deewiant: http://kano.net/javabench/
22:59:01 <ehird> (↑ kidding around)
22:59:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, yeah, mycology is a quick script
22:59:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> around 0.080 seconds when not redirecting output
22:59:22 <ehird> Deewiant: There's no way you can get Mycology to go in less than 0.5s unless you're microoptimizing C like AnMaster_ipv6.
22:59:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> so yes a quick script
22:59:28 <ehird> :P
22:59:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, jitfunge could do it too
22:59:38 <Deewiant> ehird: Depends on the machine: times make no difference in isolation.
22:59:47 <Deewiant> CCBI with fingerprints on and output to terminal runs in 0.3s here.
22:59:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> and yes what Deewiant said
22:59:54 <ehird> Deewiant: 0.4s vs 0.3s
23:00:01 <Deewiant> Hmm, why did I say 'difference' instead of 'sense'
23:00:02 <ehird> I just tested
23:00:03 <ehird> sleep 0.4
23:00:04 <ehird> sleep 0.3
23:00:08 <ehird> I could barely tell the difference
23:00:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, ccbi takes about 1 second here for mycology when redirecting stdout to /dev/null
23:00:17 <AnMaster_ipv6> iirc
23:00:20 <oklopol> does mycology have loops?
23:00:23 <ehird> I'd say 0.4 is like 3% less responsive feeling than 0.3
23:00:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, yes
23:00:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> lots of them even
23:00:30 <ehird> And I doubt you could tell unless you really, really wanted to
23:00:32 <Deewiant> ehird: Doing it repeatedly makes the 0.3 seem noticeably faster.
23:00:35 <oklopol> i mean
23:00:41 <Deewiant> But that's just my brain exaggerating the difference.
23:00:42 <oklopol> what in the world could it have that takes long?
23:00:46 <Deewiant> But then, my brain is the one who cares. :-P
23:01:02 <Deewiant> oklopol: The Perl interpreter runs it in 12 seconds.
23:01:19 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, well, for a megafast befunge interpreter that can run mycology in 0.3 that you wish to run it on again and again without any delay... don't use the JVM.
23:01:19 <oklopol> what's the bottleneck?
23:01:27 <Deewiant> oklopol: Everything, it's just turtle-slow. :-P
23:01:35 <oklopol> oh, right
23:01:39 <ehird> But I would imagine after running mycology the next step would be either to fix the source to progress further, or to stop running mycology/
23:01:42 <ehird> *mycology.
23:02:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, for cfunge the bottleneck is sting pushing of environment in y when Deewiant wants a delay in the test of HRTI
23:02:23 * AnMaster_ipv6 turns of HRTI to compare
23:04:27 <oklopol> sting pushing?
23:04:33 <AnMaster_ipv6> string*
23:04:42 <oklopol> err right'
23:04:44 <oklopol> *-'
23:04:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> 0.080s when outputting to stdout with HRTI..
23:04:57 <oklopol> assumed that was some kinda befunge term
23:05:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> 0.051s with HRTI, to /dev/null
23:05:31 <oklopol> hrti?
23:05:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> 0.65 without HRTI to stdout
23:06:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> 0.40 without HRTI to /dev/null
23:06:19 <AnMaster_ipv6> still the env is large
23:06:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> so reducing that reduces it even moer
23:06:27 <AnMaster_ipv6> more*
23:09:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> err
23:09:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> <AnMaster_ipv6> 0.65 without HRTI to stdout <-- meant 0.065
23:09:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> and 0.040 for the /dev/null one
23:10:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> and clean environment it is 0.035 or so
23:10:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> to /dev/null
23:10:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, HRTI = High Resolution Timer Interface iirc
23:10:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> provides a microsecond timer to funge
23:10:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> of course I actually get 1-2 ns resolution really
23:10:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> but meh
23:11:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, irritating isn't it
23:11:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> that you can't show this
23:11:16 <Deewiant> Just make a fingerprint that does, if you care
23:11:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, meh...
23:12:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, it would be properly designed then with implementation defined units, so you used some instruction to get "ticks per second" from interpreter
23:14:23 <oklopol> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
23:14:25 <oklopol> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
23:14:27 <oklopol> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
23:14:54 <Deewiant> School in 9 hours; I shall sleep now.
23:15:07 <oklopol> exam in 7.5 hours
23:15:13 <oklopol> i shall watch south park now
23:15:14 <Deewiant> :-P
23:15:24 <oklopol> i will ace it anyway :|
23:15:36 <Deewiant> I just enjoy sleeping
23:15:39 <Deewiant> More than South Park, anyway.
23:15:48 <oklopol> me too, when i'm tired.
23:16:01 <Deewiant> I'm happy to sleep even when not really tired.
23:16:14 <Deewiant> But I am a bit tired now, so I shall sleep.
23:16:16 <Deewiant> ->
23:16:21 <oklopol> have fun.
23:16:57 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:17:08 <oklopol> the actual reason i don't want to go to sleep now is that i need to wake up soon
23:18:10 <oklopol> oh fuck rent.
23:18:11 <oklopol> ->
23:21:31 <oklopol> shit.
23:21:35 <oklopol> so my account was locked
23:21:41 <oklopol> and i go to the bank, get it fixed
23:21:47 <oklopol> now, one day late, i start paying rent
23:21:50 <oklopol> and it's still locked
23:21:55 <oklopol> \o/
23:22:55 <oklopol> what the fuck
23:22:59 <oklopol> well. this is gonna cost.
23:27:23 <psygnisf_> hey oklo
23:27:31 -!- neldoreth has quit ("leaving").
23:28:09 -!- neldoreth has joined.
23:28:23 <oklopol> hey psyggie
23:28:29 <oklopol> can you fix my problem
23:29:47 <psygnisf_> yes
23:30:08 <psygnisf_> first we must insight the proletariate to rise up
23:30:32 <psygnisf_> then, once the revolution has taken all land and property from the bourgeoisie, you wont need to pay rent.
23:30:37 <psygnisf_> problem fixed!
23:32:29 <oklopol> will that get it payed tonight?
23:32:36 * SimonRC goes
23:32:58 <SimonRC> you may kid but I keep seeing communists campaigning ni the town center
23:33:00 * SimonRC goes
23:33:35 <psygnisf_> simonrc: im only partially kidding.
23:33:48 <psygnisf_> since i AM an insurrectionary anarchist.
23:34:44 <oklopol> that word did not be contained in mine head lexicon.
23:35:08 <ehird> practical-anarchists are so tdeious
23:35:33 <oklopol> i don't know "tdeious" either
23:35:37 <oklopol> god i suck at this language
23:35:41 <ehird> tedious.
23:35:42 <ehird> :P
23:35:55 -!- jix has joined.
23:37:31 <oklopol> quite.
23:53:58 <oklopol> okay now maybe south park
23:54:13 <oklopol> i wonder how i managed to spend half an hour not starting the ep
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