←2009-04-07 2009-04-08 2009-04-09→ ↑2009 ↑all
00:00:11 <ehird> wha
00:00:13 <ehird> t
00:00:35 <fizzie> Based on a count of greek letters in this HMM-based paper, this one at least is very nontrivial.
00:00:58 <psygnisfive_> if if i sent you a song or two, do you think you might be able to identify its genre?
00:01:40 <ehird> erm i think anyone can do that i mean anyone who is not musically sheltered i think unless like you want me to determine precise metal subgenres
00:01:41 <ehird> or like
00:01:44 <ehird> what kind of noise is this noise music ehird
00:01:45 <oklopol_> well he's ehird what can't he do?
00:01:49 <ehird> that i would not be able to do probably
00:02:26 <oklopol_> i can't determine genres
00:02:36 <oklopol_> except a few trivial ones
00:02:41 <psygnisfive_> well ill throw it to you and oklopol
00:02:54 <Sgeo_> oklopol_, ehird can't make PSOX magically disappear
00:02:59 <ehird> Sgeo_: no i can
00:03:00 <oklopol_> err i can't actually listen to anything atm
00:03:03 <oklopol_> but go ahead...
00:03:06 <ehird> well not magically i can do it scientifically??
00:03:37 <fizzie> oklopol_: Can you distinguish all of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electronic_music_genres
00:03:53 <ehird> fizzie: Hey the finn guy wrote a thing all about that didn't he
00:03:59 <ehird> So you finns should be very good at it
00:04:10 <ehird> I could probably distinguish like 3-5 electronic musical subgenreificationerams
00:04:13 <ehird> yams
00:04:33 <oklopol_> fizzie: i don't know the difference between rap and hip hop
00:04:51 <fizzie> I probably wouldn't know Nitzhonot from Psybient. (According to the list, those two are both subgenres.)
00:05:17 <ehird> oklopol_: well isn't rapping part of hip hop music
00:05:18 <ehird> i think??
00:05:29 <psygnisfive_> oklopol
00:05:32 <fizzie> Trip-hip-hop-a-pop-pop.
00:05:35 <psygnisfive_> rap is a vocal styling
00:05:39 <psygnisfive_> hiphop is a kind of breakbeat.
00:05:47 <oklopol_> psygnisfive_: breakbeat?
00:05:51 <psygnisfive_> yes
00:06:06 <ehird> So give song psygnisfive_ ?
00:06:14 <oklopol_> psygnisfive_: what's that i mean
00:06:17 <psygnisfive_> i generally go by ishkur's guide as _the_ taxonomy:
00:06:18 <psygnisfive_> http://techno.org/electronic-music-guide/
00:06:22 <ehird> ishkur
00:06:23 <psygnisfive_> so go there and look up breakbeat
00:06:24 <ehird> that's the finn guy
00:06:36 <ehird> err the thing in that page is tiny
00:06:46 <ehird> http://techno.org/electronic-music-guide/music.swf
00:06:48 <ehird> thar
00:06:50 <psygnisfive_> http://techno.org/electronic-music-guide/music.swf
00:06:51 <ehird> but yeah
00:06:53 <ehird> that's the finn guy!
00:06:53 <psygnisfive_> :|
00:06:58 <psygnisfive_> hes canadian.
00:07:03 <ehird> ...
00:07:04 <ehird> well
00:07:07 <ehird> his moniker
00:07:09 <ehird> is finn-ish
00:07:10 <ehird> so i declare
00:07:11 <ehird> him
00:07:12 <ehird> an
00:07:13 <fizzie> I remember seeing a link. I have no clue about nationality.
00:07:14 <ehird> honorary
00:07:16 <ehird> finn
00:07:16 <oklopol_> oh it's a genre.
00:07:17 <psygnisfive_> its not finn-ish
00:07:21 <psygnisfive_> it doesnt have enough vowels
00:07:25 <psygnisfive_> or umlauts
00:07:31 <ehird> no as a nick
00:07:31 <psygnisfive_> ïïshkuur
00:07:44 <fizzie> We don't have ï. :(
00:07:52 <psygnisfive_> wellnowwhat.net/transfers/OldFlame.mp3
00:07:55 <psygnisfive_> wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Dimensions.mp3
00:07:57 <oklopol_> nor sh
00:08:02 <psygnisfive_> wellnowwhat.net/transfers/SandovalsRun.mp3
00:08:06 <psygnisfive_> any of those three
00:08:07 <psygnisfive_> afk
00:08:29 <oklopol_> genres are a stupid idea anyway
00:08:52 <ehird> http://wellnowwhat.net/transfers/OldFlame.mp3 ← ambient.
00:09:07 <ehird> http://wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Dimensions.mp3 ← more ambient.
00:09:09 <ehird> this stuff sucks
00:09:13 <ehird> wait no
00:09:15 <ehird> that isn't ambient later on
00:09:16 <ehird> I don't even know
00:09:17 <ehird> it's just shit
00:09:20 <ehird> i can't classify shit
00:09:21 <oklopol_> :D
00:09:32 <ehird> it's like
00:09:34 <ehird> what animal made this
00:09:37 <ehird> then pointing to a huge pile of shi
00:09:37 <ehird> t
00:09:40 <ehird> i don't fucking know man
00:10:25 <oklopol_> i know elephant, dog, cat, rabbit, certain birds, list goes on and on
00:11:53 <oklopol_> o
00:12:06 <oklopol_> oh and horse ofc
00:12:34 <oklopol_> ehird: how many dimensions were there?
00:12:35 <fizzie> Llllizards. Weren't you one?
00:12:41 <ehird> oklopol_: 7
00:12:55 <oklopol_> fizzie: lizards don't poo
00:12:56 <oklopol_> ...
00:13:08 <oklopol_> why don't you take like a dictionary and learn some biology
00:13:21 <oklopol_> ehird: how old was the flame?
00:13:34 <ehird> oklopol_: est 19:37
00:13:35 <oklopol_> fizzie: lizards do reverse osmosis
00:13:54 * oklopol_ is a bit filthy
00:14:06 <ehird> oklopol_: no more questions??
00:17:13 <psygnisfive_> ehird stop hatin' on EFC music :P
00:17:31 <ehird> EFC?
00:17:35 <ehird> does that stand for
00:17:37 <ehird> effing fucking crap
00:17:39 <psygnisfive_> earth: final conflict
00:17:40 <ehird> i think it does
00:17:49 <psygnisfive_> i like the music, shut up. >.<
00:18:06 <ehird> oklopol_: i'll answer: the run was long
00:19:08 <psygnisfive_> ehird, if you had to GUESS
00:19:10 <psygnisfive_> what kind of music would it be
00:19:21 <ehird> psygnisfive_: it's not music, it's soundtrack
00:19:26 <psygnisfive_> well it is
00:19:27 <ehird> i mean it doesn't fit into any genre
00:19:27 <psygnisfive_> but
00:19:32 <ehird> because it isn't really music as such
00:19:34 <psygnisfive_> no no it DOES
00:19:39 <psygnisfive_> ive heard music like that elsewhere
00:19:46 <psygnisfive_> well, often in other soundtracks or similar things
00:19:51 <psygnisfive_> but
00:19:53 <ehird> it sounds like mark oldfield, to be frank.
00:19:57 <ehird> er is that his name
00:19:58 <psygnisfive_> its not just "Soundtrack Music"
00:19:59 <ehird> I don't know his nam
00:19:59 <ehird> e
00:20:01 <ehird> you know
00:20:03 <ehird> that guy
00:20:03 <psygnisfive_> mark oldfield?
00:20:09 <psygnisfive_> i will look.
00:20:12 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Oldfield
00:20:14 <ehird> him
00:20:17 <ehird> it sounds like his crap
00:20:38 <psygnisfive_> oh. maybe his non-dance stuff?
00:20:38 <oklopol_> am here still?
00:20:40 <oklopol_> hmm 20 seconds lag. so i guess no.
00:20:44 <oklopol_> fungot: eroijg
00:20:44 <fungot> oklopol_: i think i'll still make that " without a good name
00:20:46 <ehird> oklopol_: hi
00:21:01 <psygnisfive_> it could easily be some sort of newage/neofolk/etc kind of stuff
00:21:02 <ehird> psygnisfive_: what is the genre, anyway?
00:21:05 <ehird> yes
00:21:06 <ehird> exactly
00:21:06 <ehird> new age
00:21:08 <ehird> that's what i meant
00:21:11 <ehird> i hate that genre
00:21:39 <psygnisfive_> i cant find any newage that sounds liek that tho
00:21:42 <psygnisfive_> all the newage i find is like
00:21:46 <psygnisfive_> enya stuff
00:21:49 <psygnisfive_> and this isnt enya-like
00:21:55 <ehird> mike oldfield is very like that
00:22:08 <ehird> tacky shit like you'd find in the background of a shitty documentary, like about the planets or something
00:22:12 <ehird> on discovery channel
00:22:12 <psygnisfive_> must be his non-dance stuff
00:22:13 <ehird> plastic music
00:22:15 <psygnisfive_> yeah man!
00:22:20 <psygnisfive_> thats exactly the stuff!
00:22:34 <psygnisfive_> the artists for this did the music for the Earth IMAX movie
00:22:56 <ehird> EXACTLY
00:22:59 <ehird> it's SHITE
00:23:00 <psygnisfive_> i love this kind of music. precisely BECAUSE its all planet documentary like
00:23:05 <psygnisfive_> i LOVE those documentaries
00:23:05 <psygnisfive_> so
00:23:13 <psygnisfive_> i miss them, actually. noone does them anymore. they were like
00:23:18 <ehird> "artists"
00:23:22 <ehird> that's kind of elevating them
00:23:25 <psygnisfive_> early 90s "science is so cool!" type stuff
00:23:40 <ehird> SCIENCE = CHICKS
00:23:42 <ehird> Wut
00:23:46 <psygnisfive_> lol
00:23:53 <psygnisfive_> its very like
00:24:01 <psygnisfive_> science is wondrous and such
00:24:11 <psygnisfive_> ehird, if oldfield is the kind of stuff im looking for
00:24:15 <psygnisfive_> i will uh...
00:24:19 <psygnisfive_> what do you want me to do
00:24:33 <ehird> get better tastes
00:24:38 <psygnisfive_> besides that
00:24:44 <ehird> ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
00:24:45 <lament> science is no longer cool :(
00:24:54 <ehird> is this like with 3 wish genies wwhere I can ask for infinite wishes psygnisfive_?
00:24:54 <lament> these days, only gay sex is cool
00:24:55 <psygnisfive_> lament: we must make it cool again!
00:25:10 <psygnisfive_> ehird: no
00:25:18 <ehird> damn
00:25:34 <ehird> Well.
00:25:49 <oklopol_> hmph, i located my music gear, but i can't load old flame :<
00:26:06 <ehird> you're not missing anything
00:26:11 <ehird> in fact you're anti-missing things
00:26:30 <psygnisfive_> keep trying oklopol
00:26:30 <psygnisfive_> :D
00:26:33 <psygnisfive_> oh hey
00:26:36 <psygnisfive_> oklopol is finnish
00:26:41 <ehird> ...
00:26:42 <ehird> you just realiesd?
00:26:44 <ehird> realised
00:26:45 <psygnisfive_> that means leak spin is his national anthem!
00:26:57 <ehird> i
00:26:58 <oklopol_> yep
00:26:59 <ehird> really don't think so
00:27:05 <oklopol_> sure is
00:27:06 <ehird> also it's leekspin
00:27:06 <psygnisfive_> he just said yes.
00:27:11 <psygnisfive_> whatever
00:27:15 <ehird> it is not a leakage spinning around
00:27:17 <ehird> that would be ridiculous
00:27:20 * psygnisfive_ spins ehirds leek
00:27:21 <ehird> leakage is an abstract concept
00:27:28 <psygnisfive_> this is true, ehird.
00:27:43 <oklopol_> he's just used to typing meat spin cuz he's kinda gay.
00:27:53 <psygnisfive_> very true
00:27:58 <ehird> i don't get how meatspin lemonparty etc are shocksites
00:28:00 <ehird> they're just porn
00:28:04 * psygnisfive_ spins oklopol_'s meat
00:28:08 <ehird> okay lemonparty is old people, gross factor, i get it
00:28:22 <ehird> but meatspin is just a tranny. that's like, mainstream
00:28:25 <ehird> how is that a shock site
00:28:34 <psygnisfive_> is meatspin even tranny?
00:28:40 <ehird> think so
00:28:52 <oklopol_> ages since i saw it
00:29:19 <lament> no it isn't
00:29:29 <lament> it's just a twirly dick
00:29:44 <psygnisfive_> and a guy who wears skimpy undies when tanning
00:30:09 <psygnisfive_> actually, it could easily be a transwoman
00:30:22 <oklopol_> i can't take this obscene scene
00:30:27 <oklopol_> have to leave
00:30:31 <lament> bye
00:30:32 <psygnisfive_> afk going to ikea
00:30:36 <lament> bye
00:30:37 <ehird> wait wait
00:30:38 <ehird> psygnisfive_:
00:30:40 <ehird> you have an ikea like
00:30:42 <ehird> RIGHT THERE??
00:30:42 <psygnisfive_> ok
00:30:43 <ehird> holy fuck
00:30:45 <ehird> awesome
00:30:47 <ehird> i want ikeas like
00:30:48 <psygnisfive_> well
00:30:49 <psygnisfive_> its maybe like
00:30:49 <ehird> next to my house
00:30:51 <ehird> i would go eery da
00:30:52 <psygnisfive_> 10 miles away
00:30:52 <psygnisfive_> but
00:30:53 <ehird> y
00:30:55 <ehird> NO
00:30:57 <ehird> you ruined it
00:31:00 <ehird> you destroyed my life
00:31:01 <ehird> god damn
00:31:03 <psygnisfive_> ehird, ill take you with me on my phone
00:31:08 <psygnisfive_> give me your screenname
00:31:10 <ehird> i am in a phone now?
00:31:13 <lament> ehird: so go to sweden
00:31:13 <psygnisfive_> youll be at ikea, but by proxy
00:31:18 <ehird> screenname?
00:31:21 <ehird> like on what
00:31:30 <psygnisfive_> aim
00:31:39 <psygnisfive_> upp! too late
00:31:40 <psygnisfive_> im out
00:31:41 <ehird> i don't use aim
00:31:41 <psygnisfive_> bye!
00:31:57 <psygnisfive_> no ikea proxy for you!
00:32:08 <ehird> :(
00:32:13 <ehird> psygnisfive_: can't you use irc on your phone
00:32:22 <ehird> is it an iphone, colloquy is on the app store, it's free you know.
00:32:26 <ehird> i'm guessing it's an iphone because you're a mac fag.
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00:33:31 <Sgeo_> If WINE was perfect, I'd be a Linux person
00:33:39 <ehird> Sgeo_: lern2vm
00:33:41 <ehird> lern2dualboot
00:33:48 <ehird> lern2googletogetwineworkingwhenitdoesn't
00:33:56 <Sgeo_> vm is useless in this case >.>
00:33:57 <ehird> lern2usenativelinuxreplacement
00:33:57 <ehird> s
00:34:09 <ehird> there's no justification for using windows as your default day to day OS
00:34:10 <ehird> whatsoever
00:34:29 <Sgeo_> ehird, what if I want to play various MMORPGs day to day?
00:34:39 <ehird> Sgeo_: use a vm, or wine
00:34:45 <ehird> [[and stop being an mmorpg addict]]
00:34:47 <Sgeo_> MMORPGs that might be difficult or impossible to get running in WINE, and which are 3d
00:34:50 <ehird> yes, there are vms with 3d accelleration
00:34:56 <Sgeo_> ehird, where?
00:35:02 <ehird> Sgeo_: virtualbox, I believe
00:35:06 <ehird> vmware probably have something for that now too
00:35:10 <ehird> It's becoming commonplace
00:36:21 <Sgeo_> Would there be a way to take the OS currently running, and put it in a VM? So that I don't need another copy or a cracked copy of XP?
00:36:34 <ehird> erm do you have the CD?
00:36:46 <Sgeo_> No
00:36:53 <ehird> why not
00:37:13 <ehird> also if you don't have the cd put the partition on a flash drive or sth then import that into the vm?
00:37:17 <ehird> taht may be illegal anyway
00:37:22 <Sgeo_> Bleh
00:37:24 <ehird> gettign a pirated copy would be a lot easier
00:38:03 <Sgeo_> I don't feel comfortable ever putting a password in a pirated anything
00:38:14 <Sgeo_> This includes MMORPG passwords
00:38:21 <ehird> l o l
00:38:41 <Sgeo_> Incidentally, why would I want to go through this effort, just to not use Windows?
00:38:41 <ehird> Sgeo_: There's a problem here, and it exists somewhere, and one endpoint of it is the chair.
00:38:51 <ehird> I'll let you figure out the other endpoint.
00:39:01 <Sgeo_> lol
00:41:07 <ehird> Sgeo_: and because keeping things that absolutely need windows in their cage of dung lets you not use windows elsewhere
00:41:15 <ehird> and if you need telling why windows is bad, uh, hopeless case.
00:41:53 <Sgeo_> ehird, my understanding is: Crashy and malwarey and not easy to use
00:42:22 <Sgeo_> Is there anything else wrong with Windows?
00:42:56 <ehird> The business behind it is quite frankly immoral and doesn't care about customers. The OS is full of legacy cruft and was badly designed from the start. It is unstable, and instead of fixing security problems, they make you run a program that *detects things trying to exploit them and deletes them* -- what a stupid "fix". And the UI is awful.
00:43:03 <ehird> I can't really think of a way in which Windows is _not_ bad.
00:44:41 <FireFly> Qwerty is bad
00:44:49 <ehird> your mom is bad
00:45:57 <Sgeo_> Is Freespire considered evil?
00:46:00 <FireFly> Well, I can't think of any way that Qwerty is not bad. The only reason people use it is because of the great share of the market
00:46:20 <ehird> Sgeo_: Freespire is, uh, just not good. It doesn't have advantages and it tries too hard to be Windows.
00:46:28 <ehird> If you want something that Just Works, ubuntu does an excellent job.
00:46:29 <FireFly> I guess it's the same as with Windows, only that the margins are closer
00:46:41 <Sgeo_> What about Linux Mint?
00:46:47 <ehird> Sgeo_: what's wrong with ubuntu
00:46:49 <ehird> linux mint is ubuntu-based
00:46:53 <ehird> and doesn't really add anything
00:46:56 <ehird> and has a small community = worse support
00:47:13 <Sgeo_> ehird, I get bored easily. I spent 3 years (iirc) on Ubuntu
00:47:36 <ehird> I only recommend based on goodness, not boredom-whims, so I'm not sure I can help.
00:48:40 <ehird> Sgeo_: ubuntu has changed a lot recently
00:48:41 <ehird> IMO
00:50:05 <Sgeo_> Hm, I should try KDE4 at some point
00:50:21 <ehird> KDE4 is nice. I prefer GNOME these days tho.
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00:56:56 * Sgeo_ desperately wants more OOTS
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00:57:22 <Guest98422> bye
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01:00:30 <Sgeo_> OH CRAP
01:00:45 <ehird> what
01:00:45 <Sgeo_> I think someone on deviantart thinks someone tried to gain unauthorized access
01:00:55 <ehird> ... who gives a shit? What?
01:00:59 <Sgeo_> I did the Lost Password thing on DA, for username Sgeo
01:01:02 <ehird> (1) which someone
01:01:07 <ehird> (2) who gives a shit about deviantart
01:01:08 <Sgeo_> There really is a Sgeo on DA that isn't me
01:01:08 <ehird> (3) so?
01:01:12 <ehird> (4) who cares?
01:01:18 <ehird> (5) why is it "OH CRAP"
01:01:30 <Sgeo_> DA might investigate?
01:01:45 <ehird> and put you in jail for clicking remember password for an account that wasn't yours by mistake?
01:01:49 <ehird> OH THE HUGE MANATEE!!!
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02:16:08 <psygnisfive_> OH IKEA
02:16:11 <psygnisfive_> SO SO GREAT
02:20:30 <psygnisfive_> i do.
02:20:34 <psygnisfive_> babies are delicious.
02:52:20 <psygnisfive_> mmm daim
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14:01:51 * AnMaster wonders if it is insane to change the feature test macros between including system headers
14:02:35 <AnMaster> example #define _GNU_SOURCE\n#include <sys/mman.h>#undef _GNU_SOURCE\n#include <sys/time.h>
14:02:40 <AnMaster> or something like tha
14:02:42 <AnMaster> that*
14:02:49 <ehird> AnMaster: that will break things in undefined ways.
14:03:02 <AnMaster> what I suspected then.
14:03:08 <ehird> well I don't know for a fact
14:03:12 <ehird> I'd just be incredibly surprised if it didn't
14:03:35 <AnMaster> also I can't see any reason to do that thing
14:03:36 <ehird> http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=floppy_drive.html ← but is the floppy drive silent?!?!?!
14:03:50 <ehird> lol do people buy floppy drives?
14:04:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I can't see the CD being silent either
14:04:24 <AnMaster> "Overstock" heh
14:04:28 <ehird> cd drives generally are quiet once they get going
14:04:34 <ehird> floppy drives are a KRRRRRRRRRNK KNK KNK KNK KRRRRRRRNK
14:04:37 <ehird> affair
14:04:48 <ehird> why have you got a CD in anyway, apart from to rip it :-)
14:04:50 <ehird> or install an os
14:05:04 <AnMaster> ehird, on non-macs you sometimes use floppies to update bios, or if using windows xp, to provide SATA drivers during install
14:05:10 <AnMaster> but that would be about all I think
14:05:21 <ehird> These come without a floppy drive configured
14:05:26 <AnMaster> mhm
14:05:29 <ehird> Can't you update the BIOS from a CD?
14:05:31 <ehird> I don't see why not
14:05:38 <AnMaster> ehird, probably you can with newer ones
14:06:05 <ehird> I still need to figure out how to tell the BIOS "shut up and boot the OS" :-)
14:06:41 <AnMaster> ehird, well there is usually some "fast boot" option on by default
14:06:42 <AnMaster> or such
14:06:52 <ehird> AnMaster: I mean more the page of output they all give
14:07:02 <ehird> That is relevant to absolutely no-one who isn't trying to fix a BIOS problem
14:07:30 <AnMaster> or "non-verbose, but fill screen with BIOS manufacture's logo in low resolution instead"
14:07:42 <ehird> ooh my shit WinFast board did that!
14:07:49 <AnMaster> hm?
14:07:56 <ehird> old motherboard I had
14:08:30 <AnMaster> well, usually it is the default even, and you have to manually turn on verbose output to get rid of that logo
14:08:40 * AnMaster prevers verbose output over messy logo
14:08:43 <ehird> It's not the default on older mobos
14:08:47 <AnMaster> mhm
14:09:39 <AnMaster> ehird, btw I saw a server bios (using a kvm) that waited with a prompt like "press 1 to enter options, 2 to continue to boot", luckily with a 10 second timeout
14:09:43 <AnMaster> still quite wtfy
14:09:53 <ehird> AnMaster: reminds me of GRUB's default settings
14:10:16 <AnMaster> well yes, many bootloaders do something like that, but for a bios it is rather unusual
14:10:27 <ehird> for grub silent and 0sec timeout ftw
14:10:34 <ehird> (just hammer ESC :-))
14:11:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I would suggest a 3 second timeout or so, in case you do need to select other options, and also the grub menu allows you to edit existing options (hit e iirc)
14:11:21 <ehird> Like I said, hammer ESC
14:11:28 <ehird> The situation's rare enough that I'd prefer a fast boot
14:11:32 <ehird> Although rebooting is rare too
14:11:48 <AnMaster> hammering esc works with a 0 timeout?
14:12:22 <ehird> sure, you just grab it while it's working out what to do
14:12:23 <AnMaster> also I like fast boot, but an extra 3 seconds doesn't bother me, since it makes it easier in case of issues.
14:12:37 <AnMaster> also,*
14:12:39 <ehird> a 1s timeout may be better
14:12:44 <ehird> since you don't have to hammer it and get lucky
14:12:44 <AnMaster> mhm
14:13:04 <ehird> Coreboot is quite appealing to me.
14:13:14 <ehird> For the fast linux bootup
14:13:18 <ehird> But really, I never reboot
14:13:26 <ehird> Apart from upgrades
14:13:36 <AnMaster> indeed 1 sec could work, if my screen didn't do so slow mode switching (yet people complain about slow mode switching under linux, but it is no faster under windows or during boot anyway)
14:13:52 <AnMaster> (at least in my experience)
14:14:02 <AnMaster> ehird, then you would like kexec
14:14:14 <AnMaster> upgrade kernel without reboot, old kernel starts new one
14:14:17 <AnMaster> so you skip BIOS
14:14:40 <ehird> Kernel upgrades aren't too frequent enough for me to mess with that...
14:14:40 <AnMaster> on the other hand, running the self test bit in BIOS sometimes may be a good idea, hardware does fail sometimes.
14:15:05 <ehird> 'sides, rebooting is an excuse to trash the dormant windows lying around :-)
14:15:14 <AnMaster> ehird, so is kexec
14:15:25 <AnMaster> it doesn't keep apps running
14:15:33 <AnMaster> you only skip bios and bootloader
14:15:37 <AnMaster> rest is the same
14:15:46 <ehird> True.
14:15:53 <ehird> That'd only save a second or two. :P
14:15:57 <ehird> Is it stable?
14:16:11 <AnMaster> iirc it is "mostly stable"
14:16:25 <AnMaster> there is some hardware that doesn't like being reinitialised without a reboot or such
14:16:36 <AnMaster> so YMMV
14:17:19 * ehird 's happy that Google App Engine does java now
14:17:21 <AnMaster> ehird, for example, kexec worked on my old computer, but not on this, but I haven't tried it again since 2.6.20 or so
14:17:25 <ehird> (since you can presumably use any jvm language)
14:17:32 <AnMaster> and some hardware have changed since then
14:17:41 <ehird> AnMaster: mm
14:18:12 <ehird> I could wait 5 minutes to boot, really, as long as I had hibernate
14:18:39 <AnMaster> ehird, kexec is also used nowdays to start a rescue kernel in the case of an oops, a special kernel compiled to just dump the core and shut down.
14:18:52 <AnMaster> in case the file system stuff is corrupted in the oopsing kernel
14:19:02 <ehird> er journaling fses prevent that don't they
14:19:22 <AnMaster> ehird, what if journaling code got corrupted in whatever caused the oops
14:19:30 <AnMaster> or the disk controller driver
14:19:35 <AnMaster> that's the logic behind it
14:19:39 -!- neldoreth has joined.
14:19:44 <ehird> true
14:20:09 <AnMaster> so you use an older, stable kernel as dumping one, while testing last rc
14:20:11 <AnMaster> or such
14:20:26 <AnMaster> (but if you test last rc you probably got a debugger over serial set up anyway meh)
14:22:15 * ehird checks computer shopping list stack-stack. Top item: {router,kb,mouse}
14:22:26 <ehird> ((My in-brain organization system is weird.))
14:23:29 <ehird> Well, router's easy.
14:24:42 <ehird> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Linksys-WRT54GL-Wireless-G-Broadband-Router/dp/B000ETX928/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1239197068&sr=8-1
14:24:42 <ehird> Tada.
14:24:47 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't you say you liked your flat apple keyboard?
14:25:08 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm not so sure it would work with the new system; bluetooth and all that.
14:25:16 <AnMaster> ah...
14:25:24 <ehird> Also, recently it seems to be requiring more pressure to hit the keys, which is a bit awkward on my hands.
14:26:17 <AnMaster> ehird, may require cleaning?
14:26:26 <ehird> perhaps
14:26:32 <ehird> all keys do it though
14:26:35 <ehird> consistently
14:27:07 <AnMaster> or maybe that greasy thing often found in the plastic shafts for the keys in keyboards have dried up?
14:27:22 <ehird> I've taken keycaps off before; no grease here.
14:27:36 <AnMaster> maybe that is the issue? ;)
14:27:40 <AnMaster> or maybe you just typed too much and is tired in your hands?~
14:38:49 <ehird> "The ViewSonic VX2835wm 28” multimedia LCD display comes with [...] a proprietary display technology"
14:38:56 <ehird> Oh, marketing department.
14:39:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:40:16 <ehird> ew
14:40:19 <ehird> it;s only 80dpi
14:40:25 <ehird> perverse
14:43:55 -!- oklopol has joined.
14:49:01 <fizzie> Sony's (very-full-of-proprietary-technology) Vaio P has a 8" (diagonal) screen, with a 1600x768-pixel resolution; that's sqrt(1600^2+768^2)/8 ≈ 222 dots per inch.
14:49:07 <fizzie> That should be more to your tastes.
14:49:26 <ehird> heh
14:49:43 <AnMaster> I have heard of 300 dpi screens
14:49:55 <ehird> I just want a ~30" screen with >1920x1200 res
14:50:10 <ehird> Preferably dvi
14:50:29 <fizzie> The printer I have in my basement does 72 LPI, I think.
14:50:58 <AnMaster> iirc some greyscale only TFT at an insane price, "no dead pixels" warranty, 100% sealed, meant for use at hospitals iirc
14:51:19 <ehird> my dad has an old black and white slow as fuck huge whirring printer that prints to bad quality paper with punched holes on the side
14:51:22 <ehird> it's *awesome*
14:51:37 <fizzie> It's a 9-pin dot matrix thing, and I think it supported the 8-lines-per-inch line spacing mode. I used to have dot matrix art on the walls back when I lived alone in Vantaa.
14:52:02 <fizzie> Had to write the conversion-to-printer-data-routine myself, since the lines were a bit overlapping. :p
14:52:25 <ehird> fizzie: you're making me feel like i wasted my life again
14:52:27 <ehird> stop it.
14:52:33 <fizzie> I had http://isometric.sixsided.org/data/strips/only_when_youre_ready/21.gif printed. :p
14:52:43 <ehird> why couldn't i have been born 10 years earlier
14:53:10 <fizzie> Funny, I have the exact same feelings. Besides, living in a PC household, I almost completely missed the Commodore age.
14:56:04 * AnMaster grew up in a mac household
14:56:42 <AnMaster> :/
14:56:44 <fizzie> At least you mac people had that paper airplane game. :p
14:56:47 <ehird> I, uh, grew up in a PC household, but it's not as if anyone else used the computer.
14:56:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't remember that...
14:56:56 <ehird> because it was mine :-P
14:57:20 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, it's probably not very famous; I just remember seeing it at the place of a a mac-household friend.
14:57:22 <AnMaster> ehird, hey, a Apple Classic cost a lot back then
14:57:24 <AnMaster> an*
14:57:40 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, and?
14:58:09 <AnMaster> ehird, that was way before we had internet, when the mac had a floppy drive. AND NO CD DRIVE!
14:58:16 <ehird> "The consensus was that the Classic was only useful for word processing, spreadsheets and databases."
14:58:17 <ehird> Thrilling.
14:58:26 <ehird> AnMaster: I didn't have the internet until 1998 :-P
14:58:28 <AnMaster> ehird, that is what my dad did with it basically
14:58:31 <ehird> Or thereabouts.
14:58:40 <AnMaster> ehird, hm 1996 or 1997 or so here I think
14:59:09 <ehird> Maybe closer to 2000; the ISP (freeserve) was founded in 1998.
14:59:17 <AnMaster> I think the old 28.8k modem is still around somewhere.
14:59:17 <ehird> I was like 4-6.
14:59:21 <ehird> Not sure.
14:59:30 <ehird> "but merged into the Wanadoo group in 2000"
14:59:34 <ehird> Hmm.
14:59:36 <fizzie> I don't remember what the early PCs we had cost; I'm not sure I ever asked, either. I do remember that the 486sx/33 was around 13000 FIM, which would mean about 2190 eur, discounting inflation completely.
14:59:38 <ehird> Did it change name to wanadoo then?
14:59:40 <ehird> ah, no
15:00:26 <ehird> wait
15:00:27 * ehird thinks
15:00:33 <ehird> I got my pc when I was 3
15:00:37 <ehird> Then internet 2 years after
15:00:42 <ehird> So PC 1998, interweb 2000
15:00:52 <ehird> The PC ran windows 3.11 :-P
15:01:29 <ehird> I tell you, Windows 3.1 was *awful*
15:01:42 <fizzie> You don't have to tell me, I've been there.
15:01:45 <ehird> :-)
15:01:50 <fizzie> Windows 1 wasn't that great either.
15:01:58 <fizzie> Only split-screen windowing, for one thing.
15:02:09 <fizzie> But it did have that Reversi game.
15:02:32 <ehird> I'm using Windows, w-w-w-windows 386
15:02:36 <ehird> So all my applications are running at once
15:02:41 <ehird> ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4915875929930836239 )
15:03:10 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Winchicagodesktop.png Early windows 95
15:03:21 <fizzie> I wonder if I could deduce our Internet days from the operator things. We had EUnet's strange connection (SLIP with static IP, they gave the public "username.pp.fi" DNS+ip for all customers; oh, and there was a cheaper "only Finnish traffic allowed" option, you had to pay extra for international internet) for a while, maybe not more than a year or so... then we migrated to Dystopia, and that lasted also a year or so before sci.fi ate it; then again a bit late
15:03:21 <fizzie> r sci.fi, DLC and some other Finnish ISP formed Saunalahti, which still exists.
15:03:28 <fizzie> Maybe google knows when all this happened.
15:03:29 <AnMaster> got my own computer when I was 9 or so, and internet only a few years later
15:03:41 <ehird> Also.
15:03:42 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk
15:03:47 <ehird> This explains much about MSFT.
15:04:02 <AnMaster> we had dial-up until 2004 or so iirc
15:04:18 <ehird> I got broadband after 2004.
15:04:22 <ehird> I think
15:04:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, long distance internet?...
15:04:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes. Great, eh?
15:04:51 <AnMaster> crazy indeed
15:05:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, did they somehow ensure in-country packages didn't get routed outside
15:05:38 <AnMaster> s/packages/packets/
15:05:46 <ehird> fizzie: Long distance internet? Reminds me of that age-old bash quote.
15:05:51 <AnMaster> ehird, same
15:05:52 <ehird> Fuckin' Europe's so expensive.
15:06:10 <AnMaster> it was what I was referring to even
15:06:13 <ehird> :-)
15:06:28 <ehird> Locanet.
15:06:31 <ehird> It's not very catchy.
15:06:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't know, must've been some sort of routing trick. Maybe they only allowed traffic over the Finnish Internet exchange (ficix) and relied that their ficix-peers wouldn't carry their non-local traffic anywhere.
15:07:18 <ehird> Fickicks!
15:07:33 <AnMaster> hm
15:07:36 <ehird> Well
15:07:39 <fizzie> Hmm, there's a magazine article from 1998 which says that "Dystopia was sold to Clarinet a year ago", so that was 1997. Too bad I can't really estimate how long the Dystopia- and EUnet times were.
15:07:40 <ehird> only .fi wouldn't be too restrictive
15:07:46 <ehird> Since .fi were interwebs early adopters.
15:08:08 <fizzie> EUnet's network connection came with some version of Mosaic on a floppy, but I've forgotten which it was.
15:08:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, email then<q>
15:08:23 <AnMaster> still could easily be routed outside, lists and such
15:08:29 <ehird> I started with MSIE5. I think
15:08:53 <fizzie> Maybe they allowed global email, can't remember.
15:09:03 <ehird> TALK TO YOUR PEERS
15:09:03 <ehird> ^I
15:09:04 <AnMaster> oooh yes I still have the floppies with Netscape 2 for Mac around iirc, from 1996 or so
15:09:05 <ehird> INTERNATIONALLY!
15:09:07 <ehird> ^I
15:09:24 <ehird> AnMaster: I remember having a fucked up view of the windows/mac world
15:09:25 <ehird> Specifically:
15:09:39 <ehird> The big box saying PowerPC was a PC emulator that macs come with.
15:09:39 <ehird> And
15:09:44 <ehird> Windows uses IE, macs use Netscape.
15:09:49 <ehird> So on, so forth.
15:10:02 <AnMaster> ehird, well this was way before first IE for mac anyway
15:10:51 <AnMaster> <ehird> The big box saying PowerPC was a PC emulator that macs come with. <-- how did you come up with that conclusion
15:11:13 <ehird> AnMaster: It's not the same shape/size as a PC tower, and it has "PC" on. The "Power" bit is like, giving PC power to macs.
15:11:19 <ehird> I thought the actual mac tower was on the floor or sth, I didn't look
15:11:20 <AnMaster> heh
15:11:24 <fizzie> I don't think there was a Netscape back then, so the internetization must've been around '94 or so.
15:11:34 <fizzie> Because it appeared pretty soon.
15:11:38 <AnMaster> ehird, you weren't the type who asked then I guess
15:11:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh, I was, but this was at my cousins or sth
15:11:52 <ehird> And I was young
15:11:55 <AnMaster> ah
15:12:00 <ehird> And also, I was always right on the matters of computers
15:12:12 <ehird> (because everyone else around me had even less of a clue)
15:12:28 <AnMaster> .D
15:12:30 <AnMaster> :D*
15:13:11 <fizzie> Spam subject-line: "Need real anti-fungal?" First association was some sort of opposite-of-Befunge thing.
15:18:48 <ehird> wow, Vista was only released in 2007?
15:18:56 <ehird> I was sure the horror had gone on for longer than that
15:23:04 <ehird> AnMaster: isn't ksplice more popular than kexec?
15:32:38 <AnMaster> ehird, they do different things though
15:32:43 <ehird> Well, sure.
15:32:55 <ehird> It seems like ksplice forces you to rely on them more, to make their updates compatible.
15:33:02 <ehird> OTOH, kexec basically has no advantages over rebooting.
15:33:09 <AnMaster> indeed
15:33:15 <AnMaster> and I don't use either
15:33:36 <AnMaster> I want a fully replaceable microkernel
15:33:59 <AnMaster> so you can upgrade between major versions without restarting programs or disconnecting from irc and so on
15:34:12 <ehird> AnMaster: http://tunes.org/wiki/microkernel.html
15:34:26 <ehird> Not the right solution for hotswapping.
15:34:43 <AnMaster> hm
15:35:27 <ehird> The correct solution -- or, at least, as correct as I can think of --
15:35:29 <AnMaster> ehird, Synthesis+Genera+QNX+Plan9, yeah I know they are too different for it to make sense to try to combine them, but still...
15:35:35 <ehird> is to have the kernel be "Just Another Library"
15:35:39 <ehird> And have hotswappable libraries
15:35:40 <AnMaster> hm interesting
15:35:56 <ehird> Replace the kernel, everything else suddenly calls the new version. Got an app that needs an old version of a kernel? Sorry, you can't upgrade without closing it (obviously)
15:36:02 <AnMaster> ehird, well, you need something in ring 0 to handle process scheduling at least
15:36:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Sure, if that happens, you have to reboot.
15:36:12 <AnMaster> but very nice idea
15:36:17 <AnMaster> ehird, nooo!
15:36:18 <AnMaster> :(
15:36:23 <ehird> AnMaster: well
15:36:25 <ehird> how can you not?
15:36:31 <ehird> You'd have to kill all processes no matter what
15:37:25 <ehird> AnMaster: well
15:37:30 <ehird> AnMaster: unless it just tweaked scheduling, and nothing else
15:37:33 <ehird> then you could hotpatch i
15:37:34 <ehird> t
15:37:59 <ehird> anyway, with a good language with a sophisticated dependency and library system, you could swap the kernel and core libraries without even restarting applications and they'd use them
15:38:04 <AnMaster> ehird, 1) suspend all processes, possibly seralise to a single cpu 2) load new process scheduler code 3) transfer control to data-translator function which converts data structures to a new format if needed 4) jump into new scheduler, resume processes and so on
15:38:17 <AnMaster> you could do same for every component
15:38:22 <AnMaster> say, memory manager or whatever
15:38:27 <AnMaster> it wouldn't be easy, true
15:38:29 <ehird> AnMaster: by the time you do that I've rebooted, and all my processes are back because my system has orthogonal persistence
15:38:42 <AnMaster> ehird, that could mitigate the issue indeed
15:38:53 <ehird> yours is 10x more complex for not having to lose IRC connection for ~10sec :-)
15:39:01 <AnMaster> but what about critical systems, that you can't reboot, say a nuclear powerplant control system or whatever
15:39:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Why are you upgrading their kernel
15:39:27 <ehird> Upgrading them in general is asking for disaster unless you do it in a very careful, custom way
15:39:32 <AnMaster> indeed
15:39:40 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe they need a bug fix or something
15:39:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Work around it
15:39:53 <AnMaster> guess so
15:40:00 <ehird> Also, why are you using a kernel
15:40:10 <ehird> Surely nuclear powerplant controlsystems are 100% handcoded
15:40:22 <ehird> You can't really rely on anything except 100% understanding of the code
15:41:12 <ehird> btw, in support of my point: "Microkernels start from the (Right) idea of having modular high-level system design, and confuse the issue so as to end with the (Wrong) idea of its naive implementation as a low-level centralized run-time module manager, which constitutes a horrible abstraction inversion." — Tunes Wiki
15:41:39 <AnMaster> ehird, well, using a real time OS might be a good idea for stability, a monolithic system would risk crashing all if one part crashed
15:42:01 <ehird> I recall a quote... paraphrasing from memory, "'Operating system' is a term for everything that didn't fit into the language."
15:42:13 <AnMaster> so using multiple processes would be a good idea, still bad if something crashing, but better than monolithic crash
15:42:24 <AnMaster> and redundant systems of course and so on
15:42:43 <ehird> I will never work on a nuclear powerplant/hospital computers, etc.
15:42:48 <ehird> I have too much of a conscience
15:43:39 <AnMaster> ehird, what about braking handling computers in cars, those "electronic stability" thingies, iirc QNX is quite common there
15:43:54 <ehird> QNX kind of seems overboard for that, but that could work.
15:44:09 <ehird> That's less of a conscience-issue, since, you know, we drove perfectly fine before newfangled cars.
15:44:33 <AnMaster> ehird, the original nuclear reactors didn't use computers either
15:44:43 <AnMaster> (though there is a difference yes)
15:44:45 <ehird> Well, yes.
15:44:51 <ehird> But if the nuclear reactor computer dies, boom.
15:45:03 <ehird> If your fancy car stabalizer thingymajig stops, I assume you can still drive in the Good Ol' Way.
15:46:22 <AnMaster> ehird, you would have multiple fail safe backup computer systems, and if they didn't all come up with the same result you would 1) report error so technicians could fix it 2) for now, follow the result the majority if the fail safe systems ended up with
15:46:31 <ehird> Yss
15:46:35 <ehird> I was just explaining the difference
15:46:36 <AnMaster> iirc that is how it is done for fly-by-wire in some modern aircrafts
15:47:28 <AnMaster> ehird, the fancy car stabalizer thingymajig could fail in a way that made your brakes useless though, potentially.
15:47:37 <ehird> True.
15:49:35 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, surely you agree it would be cool to perform upgrades without reboot
15:49:40 <AnMaster> sure it would be a lot of work
15:49:41 <ehird> Yes, and I said how :-P
15:50:06 <ehird> The only thing you can't do is stuff that would change fundamentally how the current programs's operation would start
15:50:40 <AnMaster> ehird, can be solved.
15:50:51 <ehird> Yes, but it comes down to a reboot
15:50:59 <AnMaster> no there is another way
15:51:01 <ehird> Oh?
15:51:02 <AnMaster> run everything in a managed environment
15:51:11 <AnMaster> you would have to re-JIT yes
15:51:27 <ehird> I don't think that would work too well
15:51:35 <AnMaster> but you could change data structures and so on, even those visible to user space
15:51:52 <AnMaster> and then I mean, as in grow the size or whatever
15:52:01 <ehird> That's not really what I ment
15:52:22 <ehird> I mean if you fundamentally change the process model
15:52:28 <ehird> You can't hotswap that buy definitoin
15:52:51 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't that come down to recompiling against new ABI even
15:53:02 <AnMaster> I may have misunderstood exactly what you meant though
15:53:04 <ehird> Compiling? ABI? Excuse me? ☺
15:53:20 <ehird> (Sorry, can't resist contravarsy.)
15:53:35 <AnMaster> well of course the managed solution would fix that
15:53:50 <ehird> I'm talking of an environment already like that
15:54:05 <AnMaster> so, in practise what does "fundamentally change the process model" boil down to.
15:54:05 <ehird> One environment with a sophisticated library dependency system
15:54:17 <fizzie> Regarding hospital software and "100% handcoded": http://sunnyday.mit.edu/papers/therac.pdf
15:54:18 <ehird> It boils down to restructuring the entire kernel :P
15:54:28 <ehird> fizzie: Yes, that ol' thing.
15:55:03 <fizzie> It was a depressing read.
15:55:06 <AnMaster> hm Computer Modern with an uneven base I think...
15:55:21 <ehird> hahah
15:55:24 <AnMaster> it's like the text was on a wave
15:55:33 <ehird> no, that base is even
15:55:52 <AnMaster> well maybe, but then the font is somehow more messed up than CM usually is
15:56:24 <ehird> maybe it's pre-rendered
15:56:31 <ehird> It looks it
15:56:32 <ehird> kind of fuzzy
15:56:35 <AnMaster> hm goes away if I zoom to 250%... was at 200% before
15:56:47 <fizzie> It's the typical messup; in xpdf it is horrible, in Acroread it's rather readable at all zoom levels.
15:57:02 <fizzie> Fuzzy but at least not wavy.
15:57:05 <AnMaster> kpdf's info box says Times-Roman, type 1, not embedded
15:57:16 <AnMaster> hm
15:57:23 <fizzie> Yes, it's very bitmappy, I think.
15:57:31 <AnMaster> as well as three unnamed type 3 that are embedded
15:57:37 <fizzie> (Based on a 800 % zoom in acroread.)
15:57:41 <AnMaster> mhm
15:58:18 <fizzie> Anyway, the point of the text wasn't really the typography. :p
15:58:59 <ehird> Copy-pasting gives junk output.
15:59:00 <ehird> Grrrrrr.
16:00:50 <ehird> "The system noticed that something was wrong and halted the X-ray beam, but merely displayed the word "MALFUNCTION" followed by a number from 1 to 64. The user manual did not explain or even address the error codes, so the operator pressed the P key to override the warning and proceed anyway."
16:00:59 <ehird> There's quite a large PEBKAC value to this.
16:04:58 <AnMaster> don't have time to read it all, but I read introduction and parts of background. There should be an "abstract", meh
16:05:10 <ehird> It's a report on a computer killing people.
16:05:18 <ehird> I think they don't give a shit how quickly you can read it.
16:05:39 <AnMaster> yes I understood that
16:05:43 <ehird> :P
16:08:22 <ehird> wow, 5.1 speakers
16:08:25 <ehird> er
16:08:26 <ehird> headphones
16:08:28 <ehird> 5.1 headphones
16:18:23 <ehird> I am becoming increasingly irritated that I'm using a machine that doesn't even have a supported way to open it up and look at the hw.
16:23:42 <AnMaster> ehird, sounds like all macs except mac pro?
16:23:52 <ehird> Exactly.
16:24:20 <AnMaster> ehird, and those new whole body laptops are even worse when it comes to that
16:24:27 <AnMaster> before you could at least reach the battery
16:24:35 <ehird> Yuh.
16:25:00 <ehird> Someone tell them that you can make aesthetically pleasing computers without sealing them up.
16:25:37 <AnMaster> I have yet to see a product with a label like: "Only user serviceable parts inside. Must not be serviced by authorized personal."
16:26:02 <ehird> ++
16:26:21 <ehird> That would fit on one of them low-spec-hacky-happy-fun-computery thingies that seem to be starting to exist.
16:26:38 <AnMaster> you mean like open hardware thingies?
16:26:44 * AnMaster forgot the name of the project
16:26:44 <ehird> Yes
16:26:48 <AnMaster> some handheld thing
16:26:52 <AnMaster> openmono?
16:26:56 <AnMaster> something like that iirc
16:26:59 <ehird> openmoko is a phone
16:27:01 <ehird> Pandora is the handset, I think?
16:27:06 <AnMaster> no clue
16:27:20 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora_(console)
16:27:28 <ehird> Hm.
16:27:30 <ehird> GregorR got one.
16:27:40 <ehird> The Pandora system by default come with an open source, Linux OS based on Ångström[8], running the minimal Matchbox window manager[9], both originally designed for mobile devices
16:27:40 <AnMaster> is that one of the open hardware ones
16:31:32 <AnMaster> ehird, about upgrade without downtime... telinit u
16:31:38 <AnMaster> U or u tell init to re-execute itself (preserving the state). No re-examining of /etc/inittab file happens. Run level should be one of Ss12345, otherwise request would
16:31:38 <AnMaster> be silently ignored.
16:32:01 <ehird> That sounds quite hard to get right.
16:32:31 <AnMaster> ehird, possibly, but it works well in my experience.
16:34:47 <AnMaster> bbl going to make some food
16:43:46 <ehird> http://sha1.us/ ← More liek url longthenization service
16:50:08 <fizzie> irssi has that funky /upgrade command, which exec()s a (potentially upgraded) irssi binary while keeping the existing connections open, so you don't have to /quit. Not a very generic solution.
16:50:37 <ehird> fizzie: I think if you have a need for that you have an IRC problem
16:50:53 <fizzie> There's a Perl irssi-script to make /upgrade not a lose the window scrollbacks, too, I think.
17:03:41 <ehird> How queer. The "QuietElite tm-symbol Intel i7 Extreme" = the "QuietElite tm-symbol Intel i7", except it costs several hundred dollars more.
17:03:51 <ehird> Go do the figuration.
17:15:13 <AnMaster> ehird, no difference in specs?
17:15:17 <AnMaster> like cache size or so
17:15:25 <ehird> AnMaster: the cpu model and whatnot are identical
17:15:28 <ehird> I guess one could be different
17:15:38 <AnMaster> mhm
17:16:28 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core_i7#Processor_cores
17:16:34 <AnMaster> hm
17:16:40 <AnMaster> or not same "extreme"?
17:16:45 <ehird> that's what i thought
17:16:53 <ehird> but the numbers are different
17:17:05 <ehird> both of these are 965
17:17:08 <ehird> so they're both ULTRA XTREME
17:17:17 <AnMaster> huh
17:18:11 <AnMaster> still rather small L3... Isn't there some IBM Power CPU/system with a 256 MB L3 or so?
17:18:25 <AnMaster> (yes that's right, MB)
17:19:50 <ehird> AnMaster: Possibly
17:19:56 <ehird> I think they have some sort of hybrid technology
17:20:00 <ehird> Which is why the L2 is so small i guess
17:20:08 <AnMaster> "The POWER4 also came in a configuration using a Multi-Chip Module (MCM) containing four POWER4 dies in a single package, with up to 128 MB of shared L3 ECC cache per MCM", and last one is POWER6
17:20:10 <AnMaster> hm
17:21:32 * ehird wonders why the Zalman ZM850-HP is more expensive than the one above it, when it's louder and the same wattage: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/20639.html
17:22:36 <AnMaster> ehird, click the link for details and compare maybe
17:22:40 <ehird> I did.
17:23:12 <ehird> [[Cooling System:
17:23:12 <ehird> 1 rear 120mm TriCool™ Fan (standard)
17:23:13 <ehird> 1 top 120mm TriCool™ fan (standard)
17:23:15 <ehird> 1 lower chamber 120mm TriCool™ Fan (standard)]]
17:23:17 <ehird> that's some extensive cooling
17:23:39 <AnMaster> wait the max combined power doesn't add up to total power...
17:24:22 <AnMaster> oh I guess it means you can't use max in all groups at once
17:24:50 -!- gavv has joined.
17:25:17 <ehird> hi gavv
17:25:43 <gavv> hi, i was victor________ yesterday
17:25:54 <ehird> ah
17:26:04 <ehird> I guessed, somehow
17:26:58 <gavv> heh
17:28:49 <gavv> not sure anybody need, anyway link: sourceforge.net/projects/bfu
17:47:49 -!- gavv has quit ("EKG2 - It's better than sex!").
17:48:20 -!- gavv has joined.
17:48:53 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:54:41 -!- gavv has quit ("EKG2 - It's better than sex!").
17:55:33 <AnMaster> ais523, heh:
17:55:35 <AnMaster> file 6519/exe says: broken symbolic link to `/bin/bash (deleted)', but file -L on it says "6519/exe: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped"
17:55:40 <AnMaster> that is in /prox
17:55:43 <AnMaster> proc*
17:55:49 <AnMaster> something very strange is going on there
17:56:10 <ais523> no, not at all
17:56:16 <Ilari> AnMaster: That symbolic link is magic. You can't follow it to deleted file but you can open it.
17:56:16 -!- gavv has joined.
17:56:23 <ais523> what happened is, you ran bash
17:56:26 <ais523> then deleted the executable
17:56:29 <AnMaster> ais523, I know why
17:56:32 <AnMaster> I upgraded package
17:56:32 <ais523> 6159/exe is a symlink to the old executable
17:56:50 <AnMaster> but the odd thing IMO is that you can open it, even when it is marked as broken symlink
17:56:55 <ais523> which is really rather magic, you're linking to a file that exists (it has an inode), but has no name
17:56:56 <AnMaster> that doesn't work on normal file systems
17:57:11 <ehird> sure it does?
17:57:11 <AnMaster> ais523, exactly symlinks don't usually work like that
17:57:13 <ehird> what ais523 said
17:57:19 <Ilari> Same thing happens with fd symlinks.
17:57:23 <ais523> well, symlink-to-inode is rather magic
17:58:23 <AnMaster> ehird, usually symlinks point to filename, if you delete the file it points to you can't either follow it nor open it.
17:58:34 <ehird> This way is more logical. :P
17:58:57 <AnMaster> no it acts more like a "kind of hardlink, but not really"
17:59:49 <AnMaster> # ls -l 2/exe
17:59:49 <AnMaster> ls: cannot read symbolic link 2/exe: No such file or directory
17:59:49 <AnMaster> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 0 Apr 8 17:30 2/exe
17:59:51 <AnMaster> that is strange too
17:59:58 <AnMaster> it is one of them kernel pseudo processes
18:00:14 <AnMaster> it is a broken symlink, pointing nowhere
18:01:47 <AnMaster> ehird, even you have to agree this is crazy
18:02:08 <ehird> heh
18:02:20 <ehird> 2/exe -> Segmentation fault$ <cursor>
18:02:30 <AnMaster> # file 2/exe
18:02:30 <AnMaster> 2/exe: unreadable symlink `2/exe' (No such file or directory)
18:03:25 * AnMaster waits for a Penguin In Black saying "There is no such file. Nothing to see here. Move along."
18:06:51 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
18:30:36 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:41:10 <AnMaster> strange entry in syslog: gdb[28227] trap stack segment ip:44cea2 sp:7fffb79b7b70 error:0
18:41:33 <AnMaster> seems to correspond to the timepoint when gdb died with SIGBUS
18:43:42 <ais523> that's an interesting-looking stack pointer
18:43:51 <ais523> I assume you're using 48-bit adressing
18:44:00 <ais523> which means that it was very nearly at the top of virtual userspace memory
18:44:23 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm using x86_64 which means it is using sign extended 48-bit addresses yes
18:45:03 <ais523> it's just that any address starting 7fff is rather suspicious
18:45:08 <ehird> http://www.silentpcreview.com/article301-page1.html ← completely fanless pc, only noise is the HDD
18:45:10 <ehird> amazing
18:45:13 <ehird> wish they still sold it
18:45:22 <ais523> fanless computers have been around for ages
18:45:29 <ais523> but marketing people kept asking for noisy fans on them
18:45:29 <ehird> yes
18:45:35 <ais523> because customers thought they were broken
18:45:36 <ehird> wut
18:45:38 <ehird> :D
18:45:40 <ehird> that's hilarious
18:45:51 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed. anyway what I did was to "display errno", then restart the program I was debugging, caused internal error message from gdb first time, next time I tried it: SIGBUS
18:46:08 <ehird> http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/20018.html
18:46:08 <Ilari> SP is stack. That IP also looks interesting.
18:46:15 <ehird> ↑ the cooler I'm intending to get with this new pc
18:46:17 <fizzie> Isn't 7fff where this x86_64 linux always puts the stack? cat /proc/self/maps has a "7fff045d3000-7fff045e8000 rw-p 7ffffffea000 00:00 0 [stack]" entry.
18:46:23 <ehird> I believe the only fan will be the PSU
18:46:33 <fizzie> And given that the executable itself maps to 0x400000, the IP looks very sensible too.
18:46:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes think so, slightly randomised though iirc?
18:46:54 <fizzie> Yes, I've forgotten how many bits of randomness it had. Not too many.
18:47:01 <fizzie> More than in x86_32, though.
18:47:15 <AnMaster> from different runs: 7ffff4a5d000-7ffff4a73000 7fff24db7000-7fff24dcd000 7fff2bbe6000-7fff2bbfc000
18:47:17 <AnMaster> and a few more
18:47:29 <ais523> ah, aha
18:47:40 <ais523> ehird: any way you could get the PSU independent of the computer itself, laptop-style?
18:47:46 <AnMaster> ais523, where does x86 put it's stack then?
18:47:48 <AnMaster> 32 bit I mean
18:47:52 <ehird> ais523: Dunno. There are fanless PSUs, though.
18:47:58 <ehird> ais523: Which I am considering.
18:48:18 <Ilari> AnMaster: Stack top without randomization is BFFFFFFF.
18:48:22 <AnMaster> ffb70000-ffb86000 ffce5000-ffcfb000 ffb90000-ffba6000 and such it seems
18:48:23 <ehird> ais523: The main source of noise will probably be the 10K "VelociRaptor" 300GB drive
18:48:31 <ais523> AnMaster: not sure; in 16 bit it's either in the same segment as the heap, or the adjacent segment
18:48:34 <ais523> but I don't know in 32 bit
18:48:35 <ehird> But it'll be enclosed in this thing: http://www.endpcnoise.com/e/images/smart_drive_copper.jpg
18:48:36 <AnMaster> Ilari, well seems like my system always randomise it slightly
18:48:59 <ehird> so I doubt it'll be too loud
18:49:12 <Ilari> AnMaster: Or at least it was. Nowadays there can be some additional stuff there so its bit lower.
18:49:22 <ehird> still, the velociraptor is listed as 32dBA vs the main 1tb hd's 26dBA
18:50:02 <Ilari> Looks like 20 bits of randomness from those addresses on 64-bit.
18:50:55 <fizzie> In mmap_rnd:
18:50:58 <fizzie> * 8 bits of randomness in 32bit mmaps, 20 address space bits
18:50:58 <fizzie> * 28 bits of randomness in 64bit mmaps, 40 address space bits
18:51:09 <fizzie> Not sure where the stack randomization is done.
18:51:36 <ehird> (apparently the VelociRaptor is the successor to the Raptor, I suspect Randall Munroe involvement)
18:53:50 <ais523> http://filebin.ca/eeephv/ais52307_1.xml
18:56:25 <oklopol> <ais523> but marketing people kept asking for noisy fans on them because customers thought they were broken <<< i've heard of that, but i thought it was a one-time occurrence
18:56:42 <ais523> well, presumably it had an indirect effect
18:56:54 <ais523> in that the enigineers didn't try to make a silent computer for a while after that
18:57:02 <oklopol> yeah maybe
18:57:19 <ehird> this is more conclusive proof that marketers were sent from hell to RUIN EVERYTHING
18:58:00 <ais523> anyone looked at my link, btw?
18:58:04 <ehird> yes
18:58:04 <ais523> it's my latest Enigma level
18:58:06 <ehird> it is an enigma level
18:58:11 <AnMaster> brb
18:58:15 <ais523> unfortunately, it's likely to be another one AnMaster doesn't particularly like
18:59:04 <oklopol> we should have a competition, whoever makes a level AnMaster likes first gets 6 cookies
18:59:19 <AnMaster> ?
18:59:21 * AnMaster just restarted client, no scrollback
18:59:36 <oklopol> or maybe the original typoed version cokies would be better, i could do with some coke right now
18:59:44 <ais523> AnMaster: http://filebin.ca/eeephv/ais52307_1.xml
18:59:44 <AnMaster> also wth, something is broken with spellchecking now
19:00:45 <oklopol> also i don't need to make algebra exercises today!
19:00:47 <oklopol> hooray!
19:00:52 <oklopol> now i can live
19:01:14 <ehird> More Reasons Not To Upgrade Your Computer: Previously, you were thinking about a super-improved algorithm to do something since your bruteforce method would have taken years. Now, ...
19:01:51 <oklopol> ehird wut
19:01:59 <oklopol> does that contiue
19:02:01 <oklopol> *continue
19:02:15 <ehird> oklopol: ... = the rest is obvious so why would i insult your inteligamence by typing it
19:02:50 <oklopol> you don't need to, and your brain gets stale?
19:03:06 <ehird> Exactly!
19:03:15 <ehird> Fast computers cause brain death.
19:03:26 <oklopol> i don't like guessing, i just like making others guess.
19:04:12 <oklopol> in fact often i deduce something pretty much without doubt, but still ask, because i don't consider myself obligated to make that deduction
19:16:42 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know if it's possible to do finer-grained partitioning in linux than per-directory?
19:16:58 <ehird> I'd like ~ to be on the 1tb but ~/local/{bin,lib,etc,...} to be on the raptor
19:17:08 <ehird> where / is on the raptor
19:17:31 <AnMaster> on the raptor? (I restarted client multiple times since I mentioned it, due to fixing bugs after upgrading it)
19:17:57 <AnMaster> anyway what about mounting ~/local with mount --bind?
19:18:08 <AnMaster> or such
19:18:31 <AnMaster> or using symlinks and put it somewhere else
19:18:43 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not sure what you are trying to do
19:18:53 <ehird> raptor = one of the drives
19:19:23 <ehird> / = raptor, /home = 1TB, but I'd like /home/ehird/local to be = raptor (I'm putting OS stuff on the raptor and data on the 1tb)
19:19:43 <ehird> i could symlink, though I dunno where the target would be -- mount --bind sounds promising, wuzzit do?
19:19:44 <ais523> ehird: use a loopback device mount
19:20:00 <ehird> ais523: I've heard of it but I don't know what it is
19:20:08 <ais523> it's sort of like a hardlinked directory, but done via mounting rather than via linking
19:20:10 <AnMaster> ehird, mount bind mounds one folder in another folder
19:20:15 <ais523> there should be examples all over the place
19:20:21 <AnMaster> can in recent kernels be read only bind mount too
19:20:35 <ehird> AnMaster: ah
19:20:38 <AnMaster> even if the "real" directory is read write
19:20:41 <ehird> I wonder where I'd put it?
19:21:04 <ehird> maybe /aux/ehird/local or something
19:21:15 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe mkdir /ehird-local; chown ehird:ehird /ehird-local; mont --bind /ehird-local /home/ehird/local
19:21:21 <ehird> right
19:21:22 <AnMaster> or that
19:21:38 <AnMaster> ehird, you can add it to fstab, but needs a slightly odd syntax
19:21:44 <ehird> oh?
19:21:53 <AnMaster> let me check what i used...
19:22:17 <ehird> what did you use it for?
19:22:25 <AnMaster> /usr/portage /opt/gentoo32/usr/portage none rw,bind 0 0
19:22:39 <AnMaster> the "none" was the odd bit indeed
19:22:49 <ehird> hm
19:22:51 <ehird> I guess /aux = /opt
19:23:13 <ehird> huh
19:23:20 <ehird> FHS says /opt/etc should be /etc/opt
19:23:21 <AnMaster> anyway this isn't *nix, how you do this differ between different *nix
19:23:40 <ehird> hmm, /opt is for software only
19:23:50 <ehird> guess /aux/ehird-local would be best
19:23:59 <AnMaster> FHS defines an /aux?
19:24:03 <ehird> AnMaster: is a bind mount any slower?
19:24:03 <ehird> and no
19:24:07 <ehird> I just made it up
19:24:54 <AnMaster> ehird, about speed, I guess in theory it might be, or maybe not. I haven't noticed any difference certainly, nor have I performed any benchmarks
19:24:54 <ais523> yay, I just did Magic Triangle
19:25:05 <ehird> kay
19:26:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't know what sort of benchmark you would use either, since once you opened file it would be resolved using inode or such, so dd would show no difference certainly.
19:27:16 <AnMaster> in any case, disk IO itself would be a much larger bottleneck than any indirection overhead from mount --bind
19:28:19 <ais523> bind mount is a pretty simple driver
19:28:31 <ais523> I imagine it's negligible compared with the overhead of the driver for the actual disk
19:28:38 <ais523> which is negligible compared to the disk itself
19:29:32 <ehird> rightyho
19:29:46 <ehird> i was kind of happier before I delved into all this hardware stuff
19:29:50 <ehird> software is so much simpler
19:30:20 <AnMaster> ehird, when did you start doing that?
19:30:40 <ehird> AnMaster: shortly after deciding to get a non-Mac.
19:30:44 <fizzie> Personally I've just been mounting sub under subdirectories of /mnt, and symlinking ~/foo if I happened to want a local "alias".
19:30:50 <AnMaster> ehird, ah...
19:30:57 <AnMaster> still on mac though
19:31:09 <ehird> Yes, well, won't be in a month or two.
19:31:11 <ehird> Prolly.
19:31:58 <ais523> fizzie: /media is the standard place to mount things
19:31:58 <ehird> fizzie: /mnt is kind of inaccurate since it's not a separate devic
19:31:59 <ehird> e
19:32:00 <AnMaster> ehird, right, but please study hardware more, it is fun, and you will end up coding in C (or even asm) due to caring about overhead and cache locality soon
19:32:02 <AnMaster> :P
19:32:09 <ais523> traditionally, /mnt never contains anything, it's used as a temporary mount point
19:32:15 <ais523> as in, the whole thing
19:32:17 <AnMaster> soon after that I predict you will like cfunge
19:32:26 <ehird> ais523: most distros use /mnt = ubuntu's /media
19:32:27 <ehird> I believe
19:32:31 <ehird> AnMaster: I think part of the bliss of a high-end machine is not having to worry about that tuff
19:32:33 <ehird> stuff
19:32:36 <ais523> ehird: no, most distros use /media = ubuntu's /media
19:32:39 <ais523> it's in the FHS
19:32:41 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc suse used /media at least
19:32:41 <ehird> ais523: really? okay.
19:32:44 <AnMaster> back when I used it
19:33:00 <AnMaster> ais523, /mnt is the traditional one though, which I use on my system too
19:33:04 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, and if you want testing on a core i7 quad-core nehalem @ 3.2ghz I'm happy to help :-P
19:33:24 <fizzie> I've been leaving /media alone, since it smells like some sort of strange auto-mountery thing.
19:33:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah another hal hater :D
19:34:44 <ehird> It amuses me that you get funky ram amounts like 6gb because it works natively with ram multiples of 3gb.
19:34:48 * AnMaster can't stand hal... usually it doesn't set it up the way I want it.
19:34:58 <ehird> Who needs compatibility :-P
19:34:59 <AnMaster> ehird, err what does
19:35:07 <ehird> AnMaster: core i7/"nehalem"
19:35:09 <AnMaster> ah
19:35:25 <AnMaster> ehird, so it needs multiples of 3 GB...
19:35:27 <fizzie> I did do something like putting in fstab "/dev/disk/by-id/usb-Generic_CF_0000001-0:0-part1 /media/cf vfat user,noauto 0 0" and "/dev/disk/by-id/usb-Generic_MMC_SD_0000001-0:2-part1 /media/sd vfat user,noauto 0 0" so I can just "mount /media/sd" when I need to mount a sd card from the camera.
19:35:34 <fizzie> That's very media-ific, after all.
19:35:39 <AnMaster> it can't use, say, 4 GB RAM
19:35:42 <AnMaster> or what
19:35:48 <ehird> AnMaster: It can, I believe, it's just less efficient.
19:35:49 <ehird> I may be wrong.
19:35:54 <AnMaster> mhm
19:36:18 <ehird> It's all rather confusing
19:36:29 <ehird> AnMaster: did your friend go into any detail about "core i7 = pentium 2.0"?
19:37:26 <fizzie> "/media : Mount point for removeable media"
19:37:28 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc he said something about long pipeline and hyperthreading, as well as heat
19:37:54 <fizzie> See; I can't put my "another HD with no real place in the filesystem tree" into /media, because it is very much not removable. Well, removable easily, anyway.
19:37:59 <ehird> AnMaster: long pipeline - is this really a big issue? Aren't CPUs very good at branch prediction these days?
19:38:08 <ehird> AnMaster: hyperthreading - sth about security right? I don't care about that
19:38:12 <ais523> did you know that floppy drives are hot-swappable?
19:38:28 <ehird> heat - I think the cooler I am getting is some sort of mega-amazing i7-optimized supercooler
19:38:29 <fizzie> Did you know that ISA cards are hot-swappable?
19:38:42 <ais523> ehird: being good at branch prediction still doesn't give you a prediction hit every time round
19:38:47 <AnMaster> ais523, somehow I got confused because I read it as "ehird" said that. And thought "only ais would say that"
19:38:56 <ais523> but long-pipeline is nearly always more efficient than short-pipeline
19:38:58 <fizzie> Well, maybe not officially, but certainly I did swap it hot. PCI display adapters do not seem to be very hot-swappable.
19:39:10 <ehird> ais523: yes, well, branch mispredictions happen, no?
19:39:13 <ais523> yep
19:39:16 <fizzie> Anyway, FHS also says: "Although the use of subdirectories in /mnt as a mount point has recently been common, it conflicts with a much older tradition of using /mnt directly as a temporary mount point." -- so I'm certainly not the only one who's been using /mnt subdirs.
19:39:19 <ehird> with the high clock speed I can't imagine it matters too much
19:39:24 <ais523> and you get a delay equal to the latency of the pipeline, rather than its throughput
19:39:37 <ais523> which is normally 50 or so times as much on modern processors
19:39:41 <ais523> not the end of the world, really
19:39:43 <AnMaster> ehird, they are certainly better, but he said something about overhead when there were misses was way larger, and some apps were faster on his core2 than his core i7, in both cases compiled with last version of icc
19:39:58 <ehird> AnMaster: what specs are the cpus?
19:40:13 <ehird> A core 2 is also on the cards, maybe
19:40:17 <ehird> So I'd be interested
19:40:38 <ehird> is there anywhere listing pipeline sizes or w/e?
19:40:41 <AnMaster> ehird, well it was the non-extreme one I remember. but apart from that I don't remember details, and I lack irc logs from that months, typoed a command when transferring them to CD
19:40:49 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure where I should FHS-approvably mount "large amount of storage that do not belong to any particular user, but contain data files such as multimediastics".
19:40:51 <AnMaster> so no logs from Jan 2009 around any more
19:40:56 <ehird> AnMaster: kay
19:41:03 <ehird> if he's around sometime i'd appreciate you asking him or whatever
19:41:08 <ehird> always nice to know these things :)
19:41:15 <ehird> fizzie: /aux! :-P
19:41:25 <ehird> fizzie: also, /var, maybe?
19:41:30 <ehird> /var/multimediastics/
19:42:01 <ehird> gotta admit i'm warya bout getting an i7 since they only came out in nov 08
19:42:03 <ehird> *wary
19:42:10 <AnMaster> ehird, he isn't much any more, irc time went downhill since he started at MIT last year..
19:42:23 <AnMaster> and reached near zero in the beginning of 2009
19:42:24 <ehird> Definitive proof that MIT is evil.
19:42:29 <AnMaster> ehird, agreed.
19:42:35 <ehird> That was sarcasm :x
19:42:37 <ehird> I like mit
19:42:49 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know what his complaint with hyperthreading was?
19:42:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I was playing along... thought it was a joke
19:42:59 <fizzie> It's not exactly "variable data files", though.
19:42:59 <ehird> oh
19:43:00 <ehird> :P
19:43:07 <ehird> fizzie: /aux/multimediastics/
19:43:11 <ehird> ehird approved.
19:43:21 <fizzie> There's no /aux in FHS, though.
19:43:26 <ehird> So? :-)
19:43:53 <ehird> fizzie: Well
19:43:57 <ehird> fizzie: I think FHS-approved would be:
19:44:01 <ehird> Create a new group multimediastics
19:44:05 <ehird> Put it in /home/multimediastics/
19:44:39 <AnMaster> ehird, hm... iirc it was something about two hyperthreading processes he ran ended up cache missing all the time, because they had either half of the cache line each or ended up flushing each other cache lines
19:44:39 <fizzie> There is a group for that, actually, so I guess I could put it in /home/groupname; although it's even more complicated now since it's a CIFS mount from that NAS server.
19:44:41 <AnMaster> don't remember which
19:45:07 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway it caused poor performance in this app he was writing. So he got much better results with hyper threading disabled
19:45:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Hmm. I'm listening but it must be noted that the everything else I've heard about i7s is that they're the best thing since sliced Jesus.
19:45:48 <ais523> what is an i7?
19:46:01 <ehird> core i7 aka Nehalem
19:46:09 <ehird> Intel's new CPU arch, since nov 08
19:46:10 <AnMaster> ehird, well, he was doing some sort of parallel simulation app at MIT, I guess that may be special needs.
19:46:15 <ehird> high-end workstationy thingies
19:46:21 <fizzie> At work they seem to be using /m/host/share -style names, and also /m/fs/purpose for the main home/project-dirs. And the university system was even more complicated, with separate physical tree and logical-tree-made-out-of-symlinks.
19:46:24 <ehird> AnMaster: would make sense
19:46:29 <ehird> I don't intend to be doing that sort of stuff
19:46:58 <ehird> The only things I can imagine will even begin to make full use of the massive power is playing gratuitously high-quality HD videos and maybe a few games
19:47:31 <ehird> anyone used http://banshee-project.org/? looks like a good replacement for itunes
19:47:36 <AnMaster> ehird, well he also did say that reponsiveness was lower in normal use, due to pipeline stalls when switching tasks (or something like that), which was why he ended up calling it pentium4 2.0
19:47:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Hmm. OK. I'll look around.
19:47:57 <AnMaster> I had a p4, I know they (especially the latter models) had that issue.
19:48:09 * ehird googles core i7 sucks
19:48:14 <ehird> ... and finds not much
19:48:25 <ehird> "haha get the core 2 quad cause the core i7 is more expensive and it sucks. amd is better by the way."
19:48:27 <ehird> — Yahoo Answers
19:48:42 <AnMaster> ehird, also he said it ran about as hot as a pentium 4
19:48:51 <ehird> Yes, well, heat isn't an issue, really.
19:49:07 <AnMaster> ehird, it is if you want to avoid fans
19:49:53 <ehird> The fans seem near-silent as far as I can tell. Although yes, the core 2 had that fanless cooler.
19:49:59 <ehird> http://media.bestofmicro.com/K/3/174387/original/013_pcmark_game.jpg ← That's pretty good.
19:50:20 <AnMaster> ehird, meh, my phone has some ARM cpu in it. yet it manages without getting hot at all
19:50:31 <ehird> AnMaster: wuz the relevance :D
19:50:31 <AnMaster> and it can even do some simple 3D games!
19:50:49 <AnMaster> ehird, "x86 sucks"?
19:50:55 <ehird> Well sure
19:50:58 <ehird> Everyone knows that
19:50:58 <AnMaster> (both intel and amd)
19:51:08 <AnMaster> ehird, PPC or ARM for the future!
19:51:12 <AnMaster> I wish...
19:51:20 <ehird> AnMaster: If by future you mean no future, then you're right.
19:51:47 <AnMaster> ehird, well I think arm will continue to be used in embedded devices for quite some time at least
19:51:51 <ehird> True.
19:51:54 <AnMaster> ppc is more unsure
19:52:22 <AnMaster> I guess it will live on for a while in the form of Cell
19:52:23 <fizzie> Fans seem to be pretty silent nowadays, especially when they are big and turn slowly.
19:52:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, no fan would be even more silent.
19:52:51 <fizzie> It doesn't really matter if you can't hear it.
19:53:12 <ehird> fizzie: Mm. Both the setups have a PSU fan, but the i7 has a CPU fan instead of a giant heatsink. I'll look around silentpcreview, probably.
19:53:48 <AnMaster> ehird, GPU fans tend to be loud too btw. My GPU fan is much louder than my CPU one certainly
19:53:58 <ehird> AnMaster: the gfx card is fanless
19:54:01 <AnMaster> ah
19:54:05 <AnMaster> ehird, what model?
19:54:19 <ehird> 1gb radeon 4850
19:54:24 <ehird> by the company "Gigabyte"
19:54:28 <AnMaster> that is one of those working well under linux?
19:54:34 <ehird> I believe so.
19:54:36 <AnMaster> mhm
19:54:38 <ehird> it's the highest-end fanless card that endpcnoise offer
19:55:04 <AnMaster> ehird, there is an alternative though... That I mentioned before
19:55:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Huh?
19:55:20 <ais523> ehird: so you're getting a new computer, then
19:55:38 <ehird> ais523: Er. Yes. Welcome to ages ago :P
19:55:40 <AnMaster> computer in different room, some sort of KVM extender
19:55:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, yes.
19:55:56 <ais523> any salient features that I haven't seen because you said them before I joined?
19:55:58 <fizzie> Last I looked (admittedly I guess it's been over a year?) ATI's fglrx driver felt equally crummy to Nvidia's (at least as far as using it is concerned, I don't know about technical details), and the radeonhd driver was pretty alpha-quality.
19:56:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, nvidia drivers just worked, while I got freezes and such with ati.
19:56:47 <AnMaster> was a year or two ago I last used ATI though
19:57:16 <AnMaster> of course both vendors drop support for old cards, and a while after that it will break with new kernels.
19:57:47 <ehird> ais523: Main one under consideration is an intel i7 quad-core 965 "X-TREME!!1111" 3.2ghz, w/ the card I mentioned before, a 10K "velociraptor" 300gb drive for the os, a 7.5k 1tb drive for /home, both in a 100% copper enclosure, 6gb ram, and this case installation: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/1104470.html#acousti
19:57:55 <AnMaster> open drivers strongly preferred, which leaves you with crappy intel on-board graphics
19:58:07 <ehird> Nothing really earth-shattering; pretty similar to most high-end machines I'd imagine
19:58:13 <ehird> But still very nice
19:58:24 <fizzie> Seems that radeonhd has gained 2D acceleration support for at least some models.
19:58:28 <ais523> I generally go for really low-end computers
19:58:38 <AnMaster> ehird, what about cooling those drive enclosures? harddrives generate heat too
19:58:45 <AnMaster> or I guess they handle it
19:58:55 <ehird> AnMaster: They have air holes. :-P
19:59:04 * ais523 checks out llvm + clang development sources
19:59:06 <ehird> And the case has fans built in.
19:59:07 <ehird> It seems.
19:59:11 <ehird> From what I can ascertain,.
19:59:13 <AnMaster> won't really stop noise
19:59:38 <ehird> AnMaster: I've looked around a bit, it should dim it quite a bit. Those velociraptors aren't quiet
19:59:48 <AnMaster> hm
19:59:57 <ehird> http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/1104488.html ← says it has a bunch of tiny fans
20:00:09 <AnMaster> ehird, which brand is the "velociraptor"?
20:00:14 <ehird> AnMaster: western digital
20:00:17 <AnMaster> mhm
20:00:57 <AnMaster> ehird, hm most of my harrdrives are pretty quiet, but the one from western digital I can easily hear when it is seeking
20:01:10 <AnMaster> WDC WD2500JD-00HBB0 btw
20:01:15 <ais523> ehird: which OS are you planning to use?
20:01:19 <ehird> ais523: Ubuntu
20:01:37 <AnMaster> ehird, why not a rolling release one
20:01:44 <ais523> wow, the filenames of the llvm source are written in CamelCase
20:01:45 <ehird> 'Cuz ubuntu works well for me.
20:01:50 <ehird> ais523: it's c++
20:01:51 <ehird> that's common
20:01:52 <ais523> AnMaster: Ubuntu does rolling release too if you want it to
20:01:57 <ais523> just most people don't
20:02:02 <AnMaster> ais523, really<q>
20:02:10 <ais523> it tends to be rather buggy every now and then, though
20:02:15 <AnMaster> ah
20:02:19 <ais523> because the rolling-release sources aren't as tested as the actual releases
20:02:23 <AnMaster> ais523, does this mean tracking unstable or
20:02:26 <ais523> yes
20:02:29 <AnMaster> I see
20:02:29 <ehird> AnMaster: well, with the GrowUp Japan Full Copper enclosure at the bottom here: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/1104490.html, plus the case insulation at the bottom here: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/1104470.html#acousti, and the fact that the case itself is noise-canceling,
20:02:32 <ais523> I'm on ubuntu-proposed, which is somewhere in between
20:02:34 <ehird> I doubt I'll hear the drives much
20:02:38 <AnMaster> ais523, well I prefer distros that have stable rolling releases
20:02:44 <AnMaster> like gentoo, arch linux and so on
20:02:55 <ais523> -proposed is basically asking for changes a few months before everyone else
20:03:03 <ais523> I do it so I can find, report and fix bugs
20:03:17 <ais523> although Ubuntu aren't particularly responsive to bug reports
20:03:25 <AnMaster> ehird, "GrowUp Japan Full Copper enclosure" ... silly name
20:03:34 <ais523> the bug in atd is still there, even though loads of people have reported it and I told Ubuntu what was causing it
20:03:35 <ehird> Well, the company's called GrowUp Japan.
20:03:39 <ehird> And it's an enclosure that's fully copper.
20:03:48 <AnMaster> ehird, which is a silly name for a company
20:03:51 <ais523> I think it's nice and descriptive
20:03:53 <ehird> Oh grow up.
20:03:55 <ehird> Japan.
20:03:56 <AnMaster> hah
20:04:44 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway does the case itself act as a big heat sink<q> since it is copper it should conduct heat pretty well
20:04:52 <ehird> AnMaster: It probably does
20:04:58 <ehird> Hard drives aren't generally cooled are they...?
20:05:08 <ais523> they're generally just cooled by case circulation
20:05:12 <ehird> right
20:05:13 <ais523> they don't need more than that
20:05:18 <AnMaster> <backspace> what ais523 said
20:05:21 <AnMaster> :/
20:05:27 <ais523> AnMaster: ?
20:05:37 -!- ais523 has changed nick to backspace.
20:05:37 <AnMaster> ais523, I was writing almost the same line but you were faster...
20:05:41 -!- backspace has changed nick to ais523.
20:05:52 <ais523> someone else's nick...
20:05:55 <AnMaster> hehe
20:06:32 <ehird> I configured an AMD system that's quite cheaper than the intel one
20:06:45 <AnMaster> ehird, how many dB is that velicoraptor
20:06:59 <Sgeo> Would there be any advantages to a computer system that used balanced ternary?
20:07:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Don't know dB, but the dBA is 32, compared to the regular HD's 22
20:07:07 <AnMaster> ehird, same cpu speed/core count<q>
20:07:11 <AnMaster> hm
20:07:22 <ehird> AnMaster: amd was 3.0 vs 3.2, but yes, same core count
20:07:24 <ehird> http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/1104478.html
20:07:25 <ehird> more info
20:07:39 <ehird> The AMD one only has 4GB of ram
20:07:47 <ehird> It's a "Phenom II 940 BLACK EDITION".
20:07:58 <ehird> Apart from that it's identical to the i7
20:08:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I think the drive will still be quite noisy, and it will take a 5.25" drive, so check that you have enough of them for all your drives
20:08:28 <AnMaster> which mean two harddrives and one dvd I guess
20:08:28 <ehird> AnMaster: endpcnoise.com lets you configure an enclosure for each drive
20:08:33 <AnMaster> ah
20:08:36 <ehird> also, no enclosure for the dvd available
20:08:56 <ehird> anyway, the copper enclosure apparently chops off 4db on average, their site says it chops off more for louder drives
20:09:10 <AnMaster> indeed.
20:09:12 <ehird> I figure that it'll probably end up ~3dBA louder than the other drive
20:09:52 <ehird> googling suggests the phenom ii is good but slightly slower than the i7
20:10:08 <ehird> http://www.endpcnoise.com/e/images/p182.jpg I wanna know what's on top of thatb ox
20:10:19 <ehird> ßomething to do with the fan controls I guess
20:10:44 <AnMaster> ehird, considering the speed and the capacity of the drive I don't think it will last as long. In my experience slower and lower capacity drives are way more durable than the most extreme ones
20:10:45 <ehird> *something
20:10:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, there's also a 150GB option.
20:11:06 <ehird> I had the higher price for dual-booting, but it may be excessive.
20:11:19 <ehird> AnMaster: A friend has had multiple Raptors in a RAID 5 for, I think, 5 years
20:11:23 <ehird> and he says they've never failed
20:11:28 <ehird> I think they were 250gb
20:12:12 <ehird> hmm, some googling suggests that when i7 gets more performance, it blows everything away, but it has quite a few situations where it performs worse
20:12:23 <ehird> anything will be a huge upgrade over this core 2 duo 2.2ghz, anyway
20:12:30 <AnMaster> ehird, well duh, that is because he uses RAID 5, should he have used a single one it would have failed. Same reason as the action of taking regular backups reduces risk for disk failing (while not taking backups make it much more likely). Closely related to Murphy's law
20:13:03 <ehird> AnMaster: sarcasm?
20:13:06 <ehird> /joke
20:13:24 <AnMaster> ehird, semi-joke... there is a grain of truth in it though
20:13:58 <AnMaster> the universe is out to get you :P
20:14:16 <ehird> brb
20:14:20 <ehird>
20:14:21 <ehird> AnMaster: well
20:14:27 <ehird> I've never, ever backed up my drives in my life
20:14:28 <AnMaster> that was quick
20:14:35 <ehird> and only once have I ever, ever had HD failure of any kind
20:14:40 <ehird> and that was mainly my fault
20:14:46 <oklopol> my computers usually die of a hd failure
20:14:47 <ehird> and i didn't lose any valuable data
20:14:48 <ehird>
20:14:50 <AnMaster> ehird, what is your luck stat?
20:14:54 <ehird>
20:14:57 <ehird> AnMaster: very low, surprisingly.
20:14:57 <ehird>
20:15:00 <AnMaster> hah
20:15:04 <oklopol> i've never rolled a 6
20:15:17 <AnMaster> oklopol, how many times did you roll dice then
20:15:42 -!- asie[Virus] has joined.
20:15:48 <asie[Virus]> hi
20:15:49 <AnMaster> huh
20:15:55 <fizzie> I had a HD failure when I dropped a glass of coca-cola on a computer that otherwise ran quite fine spread out on the floor for a couple of months, since I didn't happen to have a chassis for it.
20:16:01 <asie[Virus]> My PC was pwn'd by Virut.56/Vitro
20:16:05 <asie[Virus]> so i'm typing from my laptop
20:16:07 <oklopol> i'm a yahtzee grandmaster
20:16:11 <asie[Virus]> hopefully it's being fixed
20:16:14 <fizzie> The glass also had a breakage-failure.
20:16:15 <oklopol> (sorry for lag)
20:16:25 <AnMaster> asie[Virus], reinstall OS. That's the only safe way.
20:16:30 <asie[Virus]> I already did
20:16:31 <asie[Virus]> and bam
20:16:36 <AnMaster> huh...
20:16:38 <asie[Virus]> the virus returned after 10 minutes
20:16:49 <AnMaster> asie[Virus], don't start any old apps of course.
20:17:00 <AnMaster> I mean clean reinstall
20:17:09 <ais523> nowadays it's nearly always worms, rather than viruses
20:17:09 <asie[Virus]> AnMaster: I can't get rid of 500GB of data can I?
20:17:10 <AnMaster> reformat disk, clean reinstall, run update apps.
20:17:11 <asie[Virus]> Anyway
20:17:17 <asie[Virus]> Dr. Web's cleaning my PC
20:17:22 <asie[Virus]> and it IS removing Virut
20:17:24 <oklopol> viruses only strike if you believe in them
20:17:33 <asie[Virus]> Then I'm going to scan with avast!
20:17:39 <asie[Virus]> and remove the leftover EXE's
20:17:45 <ais523> AnMaster: clean reinstalls rarely work as well nowadays because the apps assume you're trying to pirate them
20:17:53 <AnMaster> ais523, what
20:17:58 <ais523> but if you know which malware it was, normally just removing it works
20:18:06 <fizzie> oklopol: Oh, right, here -- you can have this 6: ⚅
20:18:08 * oklopol is a proud ubuntu user now
20:18:15 <oklopol> HAVE I MENTIONED THAT?
20:18:18 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:18:21 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't it same thing as a rootkit, you can't be sure it is clean without a complete reinstall
20:18:22 <AnMaster> ...
20:18:25 <ais523> wow, you got the Ubuntu attitude really quickly
20:18:28 <oklopol> fizzie: pretty, but i didn't roll it.
20:18:31 <ais523> AnMaster: rootkits are something different
20:18:35 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
20:18:46 <AnMaster> ais523, well virus do have that ability easily on windows
20:18:52 <AnMaster> they could install a rootkit
20:18:53 <oklopol> asie[Virus]: what's sony vogue?
20:18:53 <ais523> well, yes, doesn't mean all of them do it though
20:19:07 <fizzie> oklopol: You can roll your monitor; but do it quick, while it's still on-screen.
20:19:12 <asie[Virus]> AnMaster: The way to get rid of a virus completely is to scan everything on everywhere with 10 antiviruses, and THEN a quick reinstall
20:19:13 <ais523> also, you can clean a rootkit without a clean reinstall, you just need a second OS
20:19:17 <asie[Virus]> Oklopol: movie editing
20:19:30 <asie[Virus]> ais523: Hopefully Virut fails to work in Safe Mode
20:19:33 <asie[Virus]> so I can scan my PC
20:19:48 <ais523> asie[Virus]: just look up how that particular virus works
20:19:51 <oklopol> fizzie: actually i'm saving my first 6 for the world championship next month
20:19:53 <ais523> or probably worm
20:19:54 <asie[Virus]> I found out
20:20:08 <asie[Virus]> In basic terms, it infects every app the PC touches.
20:20:10 <ais523> oklopol: there's a world Yachtzee championship?
20:20:19 <asie[Virus]> Except Safe Mode
20:20:27 <asie[Virus]> so you can use THAT to scan the PC thoroughly
20:20:28 <oklopol> ais523: yes and i'm going to win it
20:20:29 <ais523> oh, it is an actual genuine virus?
20:20:37 <asie[Virus]> ais523: Probably
20:20:41 <oklopol> and roll my first 6 as the final blow
20:20:45 <asie[Virus]> It also doesn't steal credit card data
20:20:50 <asie[Virus]> but can go as far as infect logonui
20:20:54 <asie[Virus]> which makes you unable to log in
20:20:59 <asie[Virus]> BAM!
20:21:27 <oklopol> maybe three sixes and have like a cardboard satan rise up behind me and play some serious metal
20:21:30 <oklopol> it's all about the show
20:21:35 <ais523> woah, it's a ridiculous and pointless virus
20:21:37 <oklopol> yahtzee that is
20:21:41 <ais523> it hooks the syscalls for creating and opening files
20:21:50 <ais523> and just infects the resulting file with itself
20:21:58 <ais523> what's the point?
20:22:01 <AnMaster> the best way to run windows if you have to would be to use virtualbox or such to do it
20:22:03 <AnMaster> IMO
20:22:21 <asie[Virus]> ais523: It kills every app infected
20:22:24 <asie[Virus]> as in, it can't run
20:22:32 <asie[Virus]> So you know what happens when it infects logonui
20:22:37 <asie[Virus]> or gah, something like hal.dll
20:22:47 <asie[Virus]> Your PC is pwn'd
20:22:52 <AnMaster> asie[Virus], why were you logged on with admin rights anyway
20:22:57 <AnMaster> and how did you get this virus
20:22:58 <oklopol> ais523: the point of viruses is to exist.
20:23:07 <oklopol> and you know spread
20:23:20 <ais523> the point of viruses nowadays is normally to make money
20:23:28 <AnMaster> I mean atm I do have a shell as root open yes, because I'm upgrading X, but usually I don't
20:23:35 <ais523> whereas the virus asie's got just trashes the computer
20:23:36 <asie[Virus]> AnMaster: I install too much apps, change too much settings and actually use admin rights for #1 and I don't know for #2.
20:23:45 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think I ever open root shells nowadays
20:23:51 <asie[Virus]> ais523: Imagine it hits a big company.
20:23:54 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm allergic to sudo.
20:23:55 <asie[Virus]> Just imagine.
20:24:01 <oklopol> ais523: that's just the viruses you hear about, i'm sure most viruses are harmless guys just trying to make a living.
20:24:03 <ais523> AnMaster: why?
20:24:10 <AnMaster> asie[Virus], why didn't your antivirus catch it
20:24:12 <oklopol> i don't see why all the prosecution
20:24:23 <asie[Virus]> AnMaster: Promise you won't laugh?
20:24:23 <ais523> AnMaster: because none of the big expensive ones catch it yet, it seems
20:24:43 <AnMaster> asie[Virus], no I don't promise that
20:24:49 <asie[Virus]> So i'm not telling!
20:24:55 <AnMaster> ais523, there have been some security bugs in sudo, in the last few years, none in su though
20:24:55 <ais523> asie[Virus]: even if AnMaster did, oerjan or someone could logread it
20:25:00 <ais523> and then come in later and laugh
20:25:08 <asie[Virus]> haha
20:25:21 <oklopol> yeah oerjan is really mean always laughing at people's idiocy.
20:25:23 <AnMaster> asie[Virus], I predict it is either because you didn't have an antivirus, or didn't update it
20:25:23 <ais523> AnMaster: I doubt those security bugs were for using sudo as a su replacement
20:25:27 <oklopol> watch out for that douche
20:25:38 <AnMaster> asie[Virus], well, also sudo su - is too long to type
20:25:50 <oklopol> hmm
20:25:53 <ais523> AnMaster: but I don't use sudo to go to a root shell
20:25:55 <asie[Virus]> AnMaster: The most important thing is that it's being fixed
20:26:00 <AnMaster> ais523, and sudo for every command tends to mess up complex bash commands
20:26:07 <oklopol> wait actually i remember a few instances of him laughing at idiocy, but it's very rare
20:26:16 <asie[Virus]> well, i'm going off
20:26:18 <ais523> AnMaster: if you're sudoing complex bash commands, you're probably sudoing it wrong
20:26:21 <asie[Virus]> see ya tomorrow
20:26:22 <asie[Virus]> i hope
20:26:29 <ais523> running complicated commands as root is generally a bad idea IMO
20:26:49 <AnMaster> ais523, well alternative would do to type it manually. which is more error prone
20:26:53 <ais523> I use sudo mostly for make install, package manager, recursive chown/chmod
20:27:01 <ais523> and you can always sudo a shell script
20:27:02 <AnMaster> than a for dir in */; do <something>; done
20:27:13 <oklopol> is that complex?
20:27:14 <ais523> AnMaster: for dir in */; do sudo <something>; done
20:27:29 <ais523> unless you really badly need root privs for the iteration over directories
20:27:36 <ais523> sudo only what you need to be root
20:27:44 <AnMaster> ais523, well permission denied. I was doing this in /var/qmail/queue to fix an issue
20:27:52 <AnMaster> a directory I can't read as a normal user
20:27:56 <ais523> ah
20:28:07 <ais523> why didn't you su to the user who owns the directory
20:28:09 <ais523> rather than root?
20:28:34 <AnMaster> ais523, because of home=/nonexistant shell=/bin/false of the qmailq user
20:28:36 <AnMaster> maybe
20:28:44 <ais523> AnMaster: that isn't a problem with sudo
20:28:53 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, the issue were wrong permissions on certain subdirs
20:28:55 <ais523> and you can do it with su
20:29:01 <ais523> you just need nested su, once to root, once to qmail
20:29:07 <AnMaster> ais523, so in fact I couldn't have done that
20:29:08 -!- asie[Virus] has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
20:30:22 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I try to minimise number of suid binaries
20:30:40 <ais523> oh, and sudo + su = one too many?
20:30:46 <ais523> why don't you replace all your suid binaries with busybox?
20:31:26 <ais523> (note, this is not a serious suggestion, there would be loads of reasons not to do that)
20:32:17 <AnMaster> ais523, passwd, su, unix_chkpwd, Xorg, + some file in /usr/libexec are the only suid binaries on my system. there are a few more non-root sgid such as nethack
20:32:45 <AnMaster> and yes X needs suid :(
20:32:51 <AnMaster> which sucks IMO
20:32:56 <ais523> suid root? or suid something else?
20:33:01 <ais523> I imagine it needs to mess with the graphics drivers
20:33:03 <AnMaster> ais523, suid root sadly
20:33:10 <AnMaster> it needs to mess with /dev/mem yes
20:33:42 * ais523 wonders vaguely about changing the ownership of /dev/mem
20:34:00 <AnMaster> ais523, it sounds like a bad idea, you could potentially crash stuff that way
20:34:10 <AnMaster> +iirc it needs to do other stuff too that is low level
20:34:15 <AnMaster> like write to /proc/mtrr
20:34:29 <AnMaster> which is root only yes
20:34:37 <AnMaster> for very good reason
20:34:39 <AnMaster> reasons*
20:34:45 <fizzie> You can run XdirectFB as non-root, I think.
20:34:57 <fizzie> For obvious reasons.
20:34:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, I need accelerated 3D though
20:35:09 <ais523> what is /proc/mtrr?
20:35:11 <AnMaster> so I'm stuck with nvidia driver
20:35:21 <AnMaster> ais523, setting the mtrr registers
20:35:24 <AnMaster> it is safe to cat
20:35:28 <ais523> what's mtrr?
20:35:36 <AnMaster> ais523, memory type range register
20:35:40 <ais523> also, everything in /proc is safe to cat if you aren't root
20:35:59 <AnMaster> used to mark some *physical* memory ranges as write combine and suich
20:36:00 <AnMaster> such*
20:36:05 <fizzie> There is that PAT thing which is supposed to be a successor of MTRRs.
20:36:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, linux uses both iirc
20:36:48 <AnMaster> and pat is per-page (virtual page that is)
20:37:47 <fizzie> My hardware knowledge mostly comes from kernel config questions. "CONFIG_X86_PAT: Use PAT attributes to setup page level cache control. PATs are the modern equivalents of MTRRs and are much more flexible than MTRRs."
20:38:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes added in recent kernels.
20:38:11 <AnMaster> 2.6.26 or so iirc
20:38:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, so not surprising it is still not as widely used
20:38:49 <AnMaster> of course even my old pentium 3 actually supports pat...
20:39:04 <AnMaster> though it is disabled there due to a CPU errata (erratum??)
20:39:20 <AnMaster> something about WC PAT being handled as UC instead
20:39:25 <AnMaster> MTRR works correctly on it
20:40:14 <fizzie> Heh, I was wondering why the /proc/mtrr list was so simple (just two entries), but it was that headless server box and not this desktop.
20:40:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about on the desktop
20:41:03 <AnMaster> it is two entries on my desktop too btw
20:41:05 <AnMaster> # cat /proc/mtrr
20:41:05 <AnMaster> reg00: base=0x00000000 ( 0MB), size=1024MB: write-back, count=1
20:41:05 <AnMaster> reg01: base=0x40000000 (1024MB), size= 512MB: write-back, count=1
20:41:06 <AnMaster> hm
20:41:56 <fizzie> reg00: base=0x000000000 ( 0MB), size= 2048MB, count=1: write-back
20:41:56 <fizzie> reg01: base=0x080000000 ( 2048MB), size= 1024MB, count=1: write-back
20:41:56 <fizzie> reg02: base=0x0c0000000 ( 3072MB), size= 256MB, count=1: write-back
20:41:56 <fizzie> reg03: base=0x0cfe00000 ( 3326MB), size= 2MB, count=1: uncachable
20:41:59 <fizzie> reg04: base=0x100000000 ( 4096MB), size= 512MB, count=1: write-back
20:41:59 <fizzie> reg05: base=0x120000000 ( 4608MB), size= 256MB, count=1: write-back
20:42:02 <fizzie> The complicatisms.
20:42:05 <AnMaster> hm
20:42:13 <Deewiant> reg00: base=0x000000000 ( 0MB), size= 2048MB, count=1: write-back
20:42:14 <Deewiant> reg01: base=0x080000000 ( 2048MB), size= 1024MB, count=1: write-back
20:42:14 <Deewiant> reg02: base=0x0c0000000 ( 3072MB), size= 256MB, count=1: write-back
20:42:14 <Deewiant> reg03: base=0x0d0000000 ( 3328MB), size= 256MB, count=1: write-combining
20:42:14 <Deewiant> reg04: base=0x0e0000000 ( 3584MB), size= 512MB, count=1: uncachable
20:42:16 <Deewiant> reg05: base=0x100000000 ( 4096MB), size= 4096MB, count=1: write-back
20:42:18 <Deewiant> reg06: base=0x200000000 ( 8192MB), size= 512MB, count=1: write-back
20:42:21 <Deewiant> reg07: base=0x220000000 ( 8704MB), size= 256MB, count=1: write-back
20:42:26 <fizzie> Deewiant: A winner is you!
20:42:36 <Deewiant> Set up by yours truly as well
20:42:43 * ais523 is confused by asie's virus
20:42:48 <Deewiant> MTRR has been nothing but a source of troubles for me
20:42:49 <ais523> it seems designed just to junk the compuer
20:42:51 <ais523> *computer
20:43:00 <ais523> but it doesn't do it all at once, and it only it infects executables
20:43:04 <ais523> why?
20:44:04 <AnMaster> heh
20:44:12 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Set up by yours truly as well
20:44:13 <AnMaster> why
20:44:23 <AnMaster> why would you manually set it up
20:44:25 <AnMaster> :/
20:44:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: See http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12553 for the whole story, I can't be bothered to reiterate
20:44:54 <AnMaster> ok..
20:45:31 <Deewiant> Actually I guess the relevant parts are only in the later comments but anyway
20:46:47 <fizzie> Ooh, is niðavellir your non-ascii hostname? :p
20:46:51 <Deewiant> Yep
20:46:57 <fizzie> Ha, exposeded!
20:47:28 <fizzie> Everyone seems to have a quad-core hyper-computar nowadays. Oh, well.
20:47:36 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:47:52 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
20:50:36 <psygnisfive> oklopol!
20:51:15 <ais523> Deewiant: that's a weird bug
20:51:40 <AnMaster> agreed
20:51:44 <AnMaster> very weird
20:51:47 <Deewiant> In what way
20:51:54 <AnMaster> ais523, seems we finished reading it at about the same time
20:52:06 <psygnisfive> anmaster, you're nordicish right?
20:52:19 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, why
20:52:26 <psygnisfive> because CLOUDBERRIES
20:52:46 <AnMaster> never heard of them. Tell me what it would be in Swedish and I'll try
20:52:53 <AnMaster> though I don't much like berries in general
20:53:22 <psygnisfive> uh
20:53:24 <AnMaster> and what would the question about them be
20:53:28 <psygnisfive> i got it at ikea.
20:53:32 <psygnisfive> its in jam form
20:53:35 <psygnisfive> "sylt hjortron"
20:53:43 <AnMaster> ah... hjortron
20:53:50 <AnMaster> why didn't you say that
20:54:00 <AnMaster> and that's rather sour iirc
20:54:59 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudberry http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hjortron
20:55:11 <psygnisfive> because i dont speak swedish
20:55:11 <psygnisfive> bork bork bork
20:55:11 <psygnisfive> hjortron = cloudberries?
20:55:22 <psygnisfive> is not sour D:
20:55:27 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, btw "sylt hjortron" sounds very strange... "hjortronsylt" would make much more sense gramatically
20:55:39 <psygnisfive> well listen
20:55:41 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I think all jam is sour.
20:55:49 <AnMaster> so maybe I'm biased
20:56:00 <psygnisfive> i cant tell why they said sylt hjortron instead of hjortronsylt
20:56:08 <psygnisfive> its ikea swedish.
20:56:10 <psygnisfive> whats sylt mean
20:56:43 <AnMaster> sylt == jam
20:56:59 <psygnisfive> i figured.
20:57:00 <psygnisfive> hmm.
20:57:13 <psygnisfive> Jam Cloudberry
20:57:24 <fizzie> Fi words for that berry are lakka and hilla, I've never found out why there are two so completely different words for it.
20:57:35 <psygnisfive> apparently there are a bunch
20:57:37 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, doesn't make a lot of sense in English either
20:57:46 <psygnisfive> nup!
20:57:52 <psygnisfive> english and swedish are almost identical anyway
20:58:01 <psygnisfive> Finnish: lakka, suomuurain, hilla, muurain, lintti, valokki, nevamarja
20:58:02 <Deewiant> fizzie: Also muurain, valokki
20:58:03 <ehird> 20:25 AnMaster: asie[Virus], well, also sudo su - is too long to type ← sudo -s
20:58:34 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, we do have a different word order in questions...
20:58:41 <psygnisfive> oh?
20:58:55 <fizzie> Yes, lakka and hilla were just my guess for the most common ones.
20:58:59 <ehird> 20:18 asie[Virus]: WHAT THERE'S NO SONY VEGAS FOR LINUX? LOL WHAT A FAIL!
20:59:01 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, yes
20:59:02 <ehird> you're a retard btw
20:59:04 <psygnisfive> can you give me a statement/question pair, with english words but swedish syntax?
20:59:15 <AnMaster> ehird, that was meant to highlight ais523, mistab
20:59:20 <ehird> 20:47 fizzie: Everyone seems to have a quad-core hyper-computar nowadays. Oh, well. ← but of the course!
20:59:23 <ehird> AnMaster: I said
20:59:24 <ehird> "sudo -s"
20:59:30 <ehird> = opens root shell
20:59:35 <AnMaster> ehird, still longer :P
20:59:42 <ehird> alias ss='sudo -s'
20:59:48 <psygnisfive> Swedish: hjortron (commonly used); multebär, myrbär, snåtterblomma, solbär, snåttren/snattren (locally used)
20:59:50 <psygnisfive> :o
21:00:11 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, well "var heter du?" "what named you?", though that isn't really a good translation either
21:00:20 <ehird> 20:42 ais523: it seems designed just to junk the compuer
21:00:20 <ehird> 20:42 ais523: *computer
21:00:22 <ehird> 20:43 ais523: but it doesn't do it all at once, and it only it infects executables
21:00:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: var?
21:00:24 <ehird> 20:43 ais523: why?
21:00:29 <ehird> Some people want things to break.
21:00:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, typo
21:00:33 <AnMaster> vad*
21:00:39 <fizzie> Deewiant: Also "suomuurain" is just silly. "Swamp-masonrymaker"?
21:00:41 <ais523> yes, but it could just reformat the hard drive or overwrite with random data or whatever
21:00:46 <psygnisfive> oh, yes, swedish has V-to-T movement
21:01:22 <Deewiant> fizzie: I'm not sure that "masonrymaker" is quite the intended meaning... and it does grow in swamps
21:01:27 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, maybe, I don't know the fancy names for it. I just know how to speak it.
21:01:35 <psygnisfive> you say stuff like
21:01:37 <ehird> ais523: some people are perverse.
21:01:45 <psygnisfive> I went not to the store"
21:01:46 <psygnisfive> right?
21:01:58 <ehird> I should write a virus sometime, everyone's gotta do that. :P
21:02:00 <ehird> s/ / /
21:02:06 <ais523> ehird: it might be to give it a chance to spread, it has a tendency to infect programs that try to remove it from USB sticks
21:02:11 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, a direct translation of that sounds ok kind of
21:02:13 <psygnisfive> im fairly certain swedish is SVO with no V2 properties so
21:02:16 <ehird> ais523: clever
21:02:21 <psygnisfive> I went to the store not?
21:02:24 -!- gavv has quit ("EKG2 - It's better than sex!").
21:02:25 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, "jag gick inte till affären"
21:02:39 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, hm. that sounds odd
21:02:44 <AnMaster> the question you have
21:02:49 <ehird> i have some respect for virus makers, they're clever folk
21:02:55 <psygnisfive> wha?
21:03:08 <psygnisfive> jag gick inte till affären?
21:03:16 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, no
21:03:21 <psygnisfive> oh, jag gick till affären inte?
21:03:26 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, "<psygnisfive> I went to the store not?" <-- translating that straight to Swedish doesn't work
21:03:41 <AnMaster> nor does the other one.
21:03:44 <psygnisfive> i didn't expect it would, to be honest. whats the proper swedish?
21:03:48 <AnMaster> "gick jag inte till affären?"
21:03:49 <ais523> well, the sentence doesn't make sense in English
21:03:54 <AnMaster> would be the question, if someone claimed you didn't
21:03:59 <AnMaster> but you thought you did
21:04:01 <psygnisfive> no no not as a question
21:04:05 <psygnisfive> just as a statement
21:04:16 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, as a statement it would be "jag gick inte till affären"
21:04:25 <psygnisfive> ok good. thats what I expected.
21:04:27 <fizzie> Can't you two just agree on the word order specified at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_grammar#Syntax ?
21:04:34 <psygnisfive> definitely V-to-T
21:04:40 <psygnisfive> fizzie
21:04:43 <psygnisfive> shut up.
21:04:45 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, but different in questions sometimes as I said.
21:04:51 <psygnisfive> we're doing linguistic fieldwork! :|
21:04:59 <psygnisfive> yeah, ofcourse its different!
21:05:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, I certainly can
21:05:08 <psygnisfive> swedish has V-to-T, english doesnt
21:05:24 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, why of course? English doesn't.
21:05:31 <AnMaster> and what the hell is V-to-T
21:05:39 <AnMaster> vertical-to-transaction
21:05:42 <psygnisfive> its a kind of head movement
21:05:45 <AnMaster> ...
21:05:51 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, talk sense.
21:05:52 <psygnisfive> Verb-to-TenseHead raising
21:05:56 <psygnisfive> ok look look
21:06:03 <psygnisfive> you have auxiliary verbs in swedish, right?
21:06:11 <psygnisfive> say, for future tense?
21:06:30 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, no idea. Since I don't know what you mean with "auxiliary verbs"
21:06:36 <AnMaster> I don't know all these fancy terms
21:06:38 <psygnisfive> I will go to the store --> jag en:will en:go till affären
21:06:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: kan, måste, etc.
21:06:57 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: jag ska gå till affären
21:07:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, like English has "to talk" or such<q>
21:07:08 <psygnisfive> and in negative its probably
21:07:10 <Deewiant> I.e. "yes"
21:07:20 <AnMaster> att prata
21:07:47 <psygnisfive> jag ska inte gȧ till affären
21:07:48 <psygnisfive> right?
21:08:04 <Deewiant> Right!
21:08:04 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, that ȧ is not the right char
21:08:05 <psygnisfive> i dont know how to type the a-ring
21:08:10 <AnMaster> å != ȧ
21:08:10 <AnMaster> ...
21:08:11 <psygnisfive> but you get the point
21:08:15 <AnMaster> ah
21:08:28 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I don't know how to type the a-dot
21:08:32 <AnMaster> copy-pasted
21:08:38 <Deewiant> ȧėȯ
21:08:40 <psygnisfive> im stubborn!
21:08:42 <psygnisfive> am i right now?
21:08:45 <AnMaster> but I guess Deewiant know
21:08:48 <AnMaster> knows*
21:08:48 <psygnisfive> jag ska inte go till affaren?
21:09:08 <AnMaster> hahahaa
21:09:10 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
21:09:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, I know for my keyboard layout :-P
21:09:13 <AnMaster> go means something else
21:09:13 <AnMaster> :P
21:09:17 <psygnisfive> shut it! >|
21:09:20 <psygnisfive> am i right or not?
21:09:22 <Deewiant> go is a verb?
21:09:25 <AnMaster> no
21:09:31 <AnMaster> it's an adjective
21:09:33 <Deewiant> Didn't think so
21:09:43 <psygnisfive> anmaster! >.<
21:09:46 <AnMaster> don't know how to translate it
21:09:49 <AnMaster> maybe cuddly
21:09:50 <fizzie> AnMaster: Please acknowledge his rightness soon, it'll get noisy otherwise.
21:09:51 <AnMaster> or something like that
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21:09:58 <psygnisfive> jag ska inte ga till affaren << i will not go to the store
21:10:09 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, only if your dots got mangled
21:10:15 <oklopol> affären
21:10:18 <psygnisfive> ok good.
21:10:20 <psygnisfive> so!
21:10:26 <psygnisfive> ska is a tense word, a T
21:10:39 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, ska == will in this case
21:10:42 <AnMaster> and whatever
21:10:47 <psygnisfive> gå is a verb, a V
21:10:54 <psygnisfive> so
21:10:57 <oklopol> yeah it's pretty tense you should give it a massage
21:11:00 <AnMaster> att gå, to walk
21:11:02 <psygnisfive> jag T inte V till affären
21:11:08 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, go != gå
21:11:13 <AnMaster> gå is more specific
21:11:13 <psygnisfive> what
21:11:15 <AnMaster> walk onluy
21:11:18 <oklopol> psygnisfive: looks about right
21:11:18 <AnMaster> only*
21:11:18 <psygnisfive> whatever
21:11:20 <fizzie> So what do you call the word-order flip which happens if you start with an adverb? "today I will not go to the store" -> "I dag ska jag inte gå till affären", not "jag ska" there.
21:11:24 <psygnisfive> doesnt matter for the example
21:11:32 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you can't "gå by car" like you can "go by car" in English
21:11:33 <AnMaster> or so
21:11:38 <psygnisfive> jag T V till affären --- in the positive
21:11:41 <psygnisfive> jag T inte V till affären --- in the negative
21:11:50 <psygnisfive> now, in the past tense, consider:
21:12:14 <AnMaster> in fact I can't think of a generic transportation verb like the English "go" in Swedish
21:12:14 <psygnisfive> jag gick till affären
21:12:15 <psygnisfive> which is
21:12:20 <psygnisfive> jag V till affären
21:12:24 <psygnisfive> and in the negative
21:12:31 <psygnisfive> jag gick inte till affären
21:12:36 <AnMaster> I would use "åka" for bus/car/train/aircraft or whatever
21:12:38 <psygnisfive> jag V inte till affären
21:12:44 <oklopol> AnMaster: stop being a penisdant, this is not about swedish but linguistics
21:12:50 <psygnisfive> notice the relative ordering of T, V, and "inte"
21:12:54 <psygnisfive> in the future tense:
21:12:56 <ehird> penisdant
21:12:57 <psygnisfive> T inte V
21:13:00 <psygnisfive> in the past tense:
21:13:00 <AnMaster> oklopol, pedestrian?
21:13:01 <psygnisfive> V inte
21:13:02 <AnMaster> :P
21:13:02 <ehird> closely related to prostitutes and the presdient
21:13:12 <oklopol> yes it's like pedant but really insulting.
21:13:17 <psygnisfive> since there is no T, V moves over inte, and sits where T normally would
21:13:21 <oklopol> i'm sure you got that.
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21:13:27 <psygnisfive> make sense, anmaster?
21:13:39 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, what, I didn't read what you said.
21:13:47 <psygnisfive> :P
21:13:47 <AnMaster> since some 20 lines or so
21:13:47 <oklopol> psygnisfive: verb is second.
21:13:53 <fizzie> psygnisfive: So what's the linguistic funky-name for the fact that Swedish does "jag ska ..." => "i dag ska jag ...", but English just keeps "I will ..." => "Today I will ...".
21:13:55 <oklopol> that's the general rule
21:14:09 <psygnisfive> oklopol: actually i dont think it is for swedish
21:14:22 <psygnisfive> ah. well!
21:14:28 <psygnisfive> looks like swedish IS verb-second!
21:14:31 <oklopol> psygnisfive: well that's what they teach as a rule, it has a few exceptions.
21:14:40 <oklopol> i don't remember the exceptions tho
21:14:43 <psygnisfive> fizzie: V2
21:14:56 <fizzie> Great, like the missile.
21:15:00 <psygnisfive> :P
21:15:06 <psygnisfive> Verb-Second
21:15:13 <psygnisfive> V2 word order.
21:15:19 <psygnisfive> i didnt think swedish has it but i guess it does
21:15:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, hah
21:15:27 <oklopol> hmm
21:15:33 <psygnisfive> so that explains even further why swedish word order is different
21:15:34 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_grammar#Syntax
21:15:36 <AnMaster> and shut up
21:15:38 <psygnisfive> hush anmaster!
21:15:44 <psygnisfive> discovering is more fun!
21:15:45 <oklopol> wait actually i'm not sure there were exceptions really
21:15:46 <AnMaster> someone else linked it above
21:15:54 <ehird> "and shut up"
21:15:57 <oklopol> psygnisfive: it gets pretty interesting when you have ...subsentences
21:16:01 <ehird> nice way to respond to questions, AnMaster
21:16:08 <oklopol> i mean
21:16:15 <psygnisfive> oklopol: yes, i believe V2 vanishes in relative clauses
21:16:15 <AnMaster> ehird, he could just have looked there instead
21:16:17 <AnMaster> much easier
21:16:24 <ehird> god forbid he ask a native feature
21:16:26 <ehird> speaker
21:16:29 <oklopol> you have have a whole sentence, and after that verb is second considering the subsentence as one word
21:16:30 <ehird> that can't POSSIBLY have advantages
21:16:39 <psygnisfive> oh, yes oklopol
21:16:40 <psygnisfive> ofcourse.
21:16:48 <ehird> it's "of course" dammit >.<
21:16:56 <psygnisfive> lies
21:16:56 <oklopol> psygnisfive: of course, yes, i just like it :)
21:17:02 <psygnisfive> "ofcourse" and "alot"!
21:17:08 <oklopol> recursion at its finest
21:17:19 <psygnisfive> oklopol, all languages have recursion. :P
21:17:29 <psygnisfive> V2 word order doesnt highlight this at all. :P
21:17:40 <AnMaster> subsentence? Is that inskjutna bisatser? Like "today I went to the lake, which is in Norway, in my red car" where "which is in Norway" would be a inskjuten bisats
21:17:48 <AnMaster> or is subsentence something else
21:17:57 <oklopol> it's not a subsentence, i just don't remember the term
21:18:03 <psygnisfive> perhaps a better example would be something like
21:18:07 <oklopol> because i don't remember any terms atm
21:18:18 <psygnisfive> because I went to the lake, I got very wet
21:18:25 <fizzie> Also the "inte" part moves elsewhere in those dependent clauses. "..., because I don't go to the store" => "..., eftersom jag inte går till affären". I guess.
21:18:33 <psygnisfive> or something like "because I went to the lake, got I very wet"
21:18:38 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> oklopol, all languages have recursion. :P <-- no. There are plently of languages that only have loops through while or for style loops
21:18:42 <AnMaster> consider bf for example
21:18:45 <oklopol> psygnisfive: V2 does highlight it.
21:18:46 <AnMaster> no recursion
21:18:57 <AnMaster> even you should know that psygnisfive!
21:19:06 <psygnisfive> anmastar: ::smack::
21:19:11 <AnMaster> and of course there are languages with neither
21:19:38 <oklopol> AnMaster: object vs meta.
21:19:38 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, well since this is #esoteric we should be doing computer languages really
21:19:46 <AnMaster> :P
21:19:52 <psygnisfive> swedish is pretty computer-y.
21:19:54 <oklopol> AnMaster: even considering both kinds of languages, you're addressing a completely different issue
21:19:55 <ais523> psygnisfive: the language I was working on as part of my University project was deliberately sub-TC
21:20:00 <oklopol> bf has the kind of recursion we're talking about
21:20:03 <ais523> in particular, there was no way to express recursion in it
21:20:05 <oklopol> it has a recursive syntax.
21:20:11 <fizzie> The final exam of our Swedish course is rather soon after Easter, and the Swedish word order is something they've been desperately trying to make us grok.
21:20:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you think it is hard
21:20:35 <psygnisfive> fizzie: it'd help if you understood some modern syntactic theory :(
21:21:06 <oklopol> ais523: for ef, i decided to do functions for convenience, but made them non-lazy macros, so you'd have to use ef's more interesting features for actual computation
21:21:11 <oklopol> (it's the fixed point language)
21:21:13 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> because I went to the lake, I got very wet <- wouldn't even have a comma in Swedish: eftersom jag gick till sjön blev jag våt
21:21:20 <AnMaster> or wait
21:21:20 <psygnisfive> i dont claim to know much about swedish syntax -- i forgot swedish was v2! -- but knowing theory is pretty helpful
21:21:29 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, eftersom jag gick till sjön blev jag mycket våt
21:21:30 <AnMaster> even
21:21:33 <AnMaster> missed that "very"
21:21:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, personally I don't really get why the "clausal adverb / negation" part (like "inte", "redan" and so on) has to move so that "jag går inte ..." in a dependent clause turns into "..., eftersom jag inte går". Where's the logic?
21:21:52 <psygnisfive> anmaster: blev = got?
21:22:00 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: became
21:22:02 <oklopol> became
21:22:06 <psygnisfive> same thing.
21:22:07 <psygnisfive> so yeah
21:22:11 <oklopol> so yes
21:22:14 <psygnisfive> exactly the word order you'd espect.
21:22:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, err... hm
21:22:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't think anyone thought about this properly when they decided upon it. I mean few natural languages make sense when you think about it.
21:23:00 <AnMaster> constructed ones may do
21:23:04 <AnMaster> :P
21:23:13 <psygnisfive> swedish is either V2 in the TP domain, or V2 in the CP domain with underlying SVO
21:23:24 <psygnisfive> i think its V2 in the TP domain.
21:23:27 <oklopol> STOP TALKING ABOUT CP
21:23:31 <oklopol> and missiles.
21:23:33 <psygnisfive> D:
21:23:34 <AnMaster> what
21:23:46 <ehird> AnMaster: CP=child porn
21:23:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, what's wrong with cp file otherfile
21:23:47 <AnMaster> ...
21:23:47 <psygnisfive> anmaster, can you say like
21:24:01 <fizzie> Yes, I guess that's the traditional cop-out. It's just that I'd be perfectly happy with "..., eftersom jag går inte" -- it doesn't sound "oh god that's wrong" to me -- if I didn't happen to know the rule about it changing places.
21:24:03 <psygnisfive> oh wait hold n
21:24:04 <AnMaster> ehird, duh I was misinterpreting in a different way
21:24:09 <AnMaster> intentionally of course
21:24:13 <psygnisfive> jag inte går in lower clauses
21:24:13 <AnMaster> ...
21:24:14 <psygnisfive> hm!
21:24:15 <ehird> it's hard to tell
21:24:18 <psygnisfive> interesting
21:24:25 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, what
21:24:34 <AnMaster> "jag inte går in", where on earth would that make sense
21:24:39 <psygnisfive> fizzie
21:24:39 <psygnisfive> AnMaster: Well, personally I don't really get why the "clausal adverb / negation" part (like "inte", "redan" and so on) has to move so that "jag går inte ..." in a dependent clause turns into "..., eftersom jag inte går". Where's the logic?
21:24:40 <AnMaster> jag går inte in
21:24:44 <oklopol> fizzie: then maybe you're a noob :)
21:24:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: '"jag inte går" in lower clauses'
21:24:50 <ehird> 21:24 psygnisfive: AnMaster: Well, personally I don't really get why the "clausal adverb / negation" part (like "inte", "redan" and so on) has to move so that "jag går inte ..." in a dependent clause turns into "..., eftersom jag inte går". Where's the logic?
21:24:52 <AnMaster> well
21:24:53 <AnMaster> example then
21:24:56 <ehird> that's very un- psygnisfive lik talk
21:24:59 <ehird> is that a quote
21:25:03 <AnMaster> ehird, yes read scrollback
21:25:08 <ehird> o
21:25:08 <oklopol> fizzie: you should recognize it as a ...sweticizm in finnish people's spech
21:25:10 <oklopol> *speech
21:25:10 <psygnisfive> ehird, yes. i was quoting fizzie
21:25:15 <psygnisfive> fizzie, the logic is actually not that inte is moving at all
21:25:18 <ehird> yeah it seemed fizbanic
21:25:26 <psygnisfive> but rather that the VERB is moving
21:25:40 <oklopol> therefore you should...
21:25:41 <oklopol> umm
21:25:51 <oklopol> i lost my brain of thought.
21:25:52 <oklopol> sorry.
21:26:00 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, example of this in subsentence
21:26:02 <fizzie> Well, that's certainly more logical, moving the verb around.
21:26:05 <AnMaster> because I don't know all these fancy words
21:26:07 <AnMaster> so I can't answer
21:26:14 <ehird> 21:25 ehird: yeah it seemed fizbanic
21:26:14 <psygnisfive> specifically, the verb is moving to the position held by the tense head (like the word "will"), most likely, and then that position is moving to the position held by relativizers in the subclauses
21:26:16 <AnMaster> but given an example I can provide a "correct" example
21:26:17 <ehird> appreciate my pun
21:26:27 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, ^
21:26:45 <psygnisfive> but fizzie, if there is a REAL relativizer in those positions, as we'd expect in the lower clauses, then the verb cant move there, so the position of the verb should be different
21:26:49 <AnMaster> just skip all those fancy words if you want any answer
21:26:50 <AnMaster> :P
21:26:55 <psygnisfive> which is actually what we get in all the V2 languages that use that position.
21:27:04 <psygnisfive> anmaster
21:27:07 <AnMaster> "adjective", "noun", "verb" and such I'm fine with
21:27:11 <AnMaster> but not all these fancy terms
21:27:15 <ehird> AnMaster: stop using fancy terms like megabytes
21:27:17 <ehird> and CPU
21:27:23 <psygnisfive> to be honest, i'd have to give you a crash course in syntactic theory for it to make complete sense :P
21:27:25 <ehird> and kernel
21:27:30 <AnMaster> ehird, well this is a computer channel, not a linguistics channel
21:27:31 <psygnisfive> also, i dont have any sentences :D
21:27:36 <psygnisfive> because i dont speak swedish
21:27:40 <fizzie> psygnisfive: If it helps, adding an auxliary verb makes it go: "..., eftersom jag inte kan gå ..." (..., because I can't go)
21:27:42 <ehird> AnMaster: the conversation is about linguistics
21:27:44 <psygnisfive> nor do i know the precise details of swedish V2
21:27:58 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I could translate English ones to idiomatic Swedish ones
21:28:00 <fizzie> Anyway, I know it well enough to pass the exam, I guess that's enough. It's not like I'm perspiring... ahem, aspiring to be a linguist.
21:28:01 <psygnisfive> fizzie: interesting.
21:28:11 <psygnisfive> ok fizzie!
21:28:14 <psygnisfive> i have your answer!
21:28:22 <fizzie> The Answer!
21:28:23 <ehird> linguistics is sweaty work
21:28:33 <ehird> psygnisfive: are we Not Going To Like It?
21:28:34 <AnMaster> to the universe...
21:28:38 <AnMaster> ... life ...
21:28:40 <AnMaster> and everything?
21:28:55 <AnMaster> that's easy. 42...
21:28:57 <ehird> AnMaster: thanks me and fizzie hopped on that bandwagon 5 months ago
21:29:09 <AnMaster> ehird, which bandwagon...
21:29:16 <ehird> AnMaster:
21:29:17 <ehird> 21:28 fizzie: The Answer!
21:29:19 <psygnisfive> fizzie: imagine a sentence has some general positions like this: SpecC C Subj Neg T V ...
21:29:21 <ehird> 21:28 ehird: psygnisfive: are we Not Going To Like It?
21:29:27 <psygnisfive> ehird: dunno!
21:29:27 <ehird> h2g2
21:29:48 <AnMaster> yes indeed
21:29:53 <AnMaster> <fizzie> The Answer!
21:29:55 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> to the universe...
21:29:57 <AnMaster> <ehird> linguistics is sweaty work
21:29:59 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ... life ...
21:29:59 <psygnisfive> fizzie: C is the clausal relativizers. something like "that" and such. Subj is the subject, Neg is "inte", T is modals and words like "will", V is the verb
21:30:00 <AnMaster> <ehird> psygnisfive: are we Not Going To Like It?
21:30:05 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you mean then
21:30:07 <AnMaster> ehird, ....
21:30:13 <ehird> AnMaster: yes but we've established that your net connection is slower than a slow thing
21:30:20 <AnMaster> ehird, not much I can do about it
21:30:24 <AnMaster> I can't wait to check
21:30:29 <AnMaster> because then I would have to wait even more
21:30:29 <ehird> 13:28:22 <fizzie> The Answer!
21:30:29 <ehird> 13:28:23 <ehird> linguistics is sweaty work
21:30:31 <ehird> 13:28:33 <ehird> psygnisfive: are we Not Going To Like It?
21:30:33 <ehird> --clog
21:30:44 <AnMaster> ehird, so just accept that my connection is slow instead
21:30:59 <ehird> AnMaster: no. you should have a live fiber optic link to clog
21:31:01 <AnMaster> ehird, complaining about it won't fix it.
21:31:05 <ehird> yet talk via AnMaster
21:31:20 <AnMaster> ehird, if you pay for it...
21:31:24 <psygnisfive> fizzie: in normal sentences, C is empty, because the clause isnt relativized. so what we do is this: move V to T position if T is empty. move T to C position if C is empty, move Subj to SpecC position if C is empty.
21:32:04 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, isn't this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_grammar#Syntax
21:32:10 <psygnisfive> anmaster: probably not.
21:32:14 <AnMaster> ok
21:32:19 <psygnisfive> so, fizzie, consider: in a past-tense NEGATIVE (because itll show movement) main clause, C is empty.
21:32:22 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, have you read the page yet
21:32:31 <AnMaster> or did you just ignore everyone who linked it
21:32:40 <psygnisfive> ignored it because its not going to be in theory :P
21:32:47 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, what
21:32:48 <fizzie> psygnisfive: They can also stick a "clausal adverb" like "redan" == en:already to the place where negation normally goes. But okay.
21:33:01 <AnMaster> Main Clause
21:33:02 <AnMaster> Fundament Main verb Subject (if not fundament) Clausal Adverb/negation Verb (in infinitive or supine) Object Spatial Adverb Temporal Adverb
21:33:02 <AnMaster> Subordinate Clause
21:33:02 <AnMaster> Conjunction Subject Clausal Adverb/Negation Main Verb Verb (in infinitive or supine) Object Spatial Adverb Temporal Adverb
21:33:03 <psygnisfive> we can work on that too, dont worry :p
21:33:04 <AnMaster> that is what it say
21:33:05 <AnMaster> there
21:33:08 <AnMaster> you can't avoid it
21:33:50 <psygnisfive> fizzie: so we have SpecC C=0 Subj=jag Neg=inte T=0 V=gick --> move V to T: SpecC C=0 Subj=jag Neg=inte T=V=gick
21:34:36 <psygnisfive> fizzie: move T to C: SpecC C=T=V=gick Subj=jag Neg=inte ---> move Subj to SpecC: SpecC=jag C=T=V=gick Neg=inte
21:34:43 <psygnisfive> Jag gick inte ...
21:34:56 <psygnisfive> but if theres an over T head you cant move the V to T so you get
21:35:09 <psygnisfive> jag ska inte gå
21:35:51 <psygnisfive> if you have an overt clause relativizer, say, "because"
21:36:03 <psygnisfive> T cant raise to C (and so neither does the subject raise to SpecC)
21:36:05 <psygnisfive> so you get
21:36:28 <psygnisfive> SpecC C=eftersom Subj=jag Neg=inte T=ska V=gå
21:36:35 <psygnisfive> eftersom jaq inte ska gå
21:36:38 <fizzie> Uh.. how did that C=0 .. T=V=gick turn into C=T=V=gick before the Neg part? There is also some sort of T-to-C thing? Right.
21:36:40 <psygnisfive> jag*
21:37:13 <psygnisfive> yeah. swedish must have T-to-C with XP-to-SpecC
21:37:36 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> Jag gick inte ... <psygnisfive> jag ska inte gå <psygnisfive> eftersom jaq inte ska gå <-- all correct
21:37:38 <psygnisfive> I say XP to SpecC because you dont have to actually do Subj-to-SpecC, as in the "today went I ..." examples
21:37:46 <psygnisfive> anmaster: Hooray! Theory works! :D
21:37:47 <AnMaster> (which is all I can contribute with)
21:38:15 <psygnisfive> I expect that in the Today-to-SpecC examples it'd be
21:38:16 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, though the message that you won't walk did get through the first time...
21:38:18 <AnMaster> :P
21:38:19 <fizzie> psygnisfive: Okay, a winner is you. Although if it doesn't horribly offend you, I think I'll do it the lazy way in the exam (three different word order templates for the only three different cases we'll encounter -- main clause; main clause starting with adverb or some subordinate clause; or a subordinate clause), because I think I'm more likely to not mess that up.
21:38:27 <psygnisfive> "today went I not to the store" right anmaster?
21:38:32 <AnMaster> err
21:38:43 <AnMaster> that sounds like bad English grammar
21:38:45 <AnMaster> brb
21:38:51 <psygnisfive> but in swedish! :P
21:39:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
21:39:32 <psygnisfive> fizzie: ok. but now you know, and you can practice for the futuer! infact, i can teach you more about syntactic theory and point you in the direction of some articles that look at swedish syntax. it should help you.
21:40:02 <AnMaster> Idag gick jag inte till affären. correct but not how I would say it in casual talk probably
21:40:05 <AnMaster> would say something like
21:40:22 <AnMaster> "idag va jag inte å handlade"
21:40:34 <psygnisfive> va being go or something like that?
21:40:37 <AnMaster> no
21:40:41 <oklopol> <psygnisfive> anmaster: Hooray! Theory works! :D <<< theory always works, sometimes the mean reality doesn't work around it, but who cares.
21:40:54 <AnMaster> va being spoken-ism for "var"
21:40:56 <psygnisfive> anmaster: but va is a verb, yes?
21:41:04 <AnMaster> and "å" spoken-ism for "och"
21:41:18 <psygnisfive> if so, then whatever. we dont care about the actual words, we just care about the categories of the words.
21:41:22 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, so it means "today I didn't shop" (correct English, non-literal"
21:41:24 <AnMaster> and
21:41:45 <AnMaster> today was I not and shopped
21:41:45 <AnMaster> I think
21:41:49 <AnMaster> would be literal translation
21:41:52 <AnMaster> yep sounds about right
21:42:02 <AnMaster> now explain that with your theories!
21:42:02 <psygnisfive> the point is, the the word order is XP V Subj Neg ...
21:42:32 <psygnisfive> which, fizzie, is a case where something else raises to SpecC and the Subj stays low, next to Neg/Inte
21:42:33 <oklopol> psygnisfive: it's "today i was not and shopped"
21:42:33 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you claim you can explain the spoken "today was I not and shopped" (not for written text)
21:42:49 <oklopol> assuming å means och, which i didn't think it does
21:42:50 <AnMaster> oklopol, err was I, not I was
21:42:59 <oklopol> AnMaster: oh right
21:43:05 <oklopol> å means just och?
21:43:08 <AnMaster> oklopol, yeah
21:43:09 <psygnisfive> anmaster: in terms of the relevant word order, yes.
21:43:11 <AnMaster> I said it was spoken
21:43:13 <oklopol> okay good
21:43:16 <AnMaster> I wouldn't write it
21:43:28 <AnMaster> in a formal text or even non-formal
21:43:46 <oklopol> oh
21:43:56 <oklopol> i thought it was Deewiant who said å was och
21:44:04 <oklopol> then again i'm not sure he's ever wrong either.
21:44:11 <psygnisfive> anmaster: eftersom jag inte va å handlade?
21:45:14 <oklopol> psygnisfive: you can't pull of the contractions!
21:45:17 <oklopol> *off
21:45:19 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, sounds strange. I would not add those "filler" words "va å" (var och) in that case
21:45:34 <psygnisfive> you'd use var och in that case?
21:45:38 <ehird> psygnisfive: note: AnMaster takes his awkward swedish as a matter of pride
21:45:39 <AnMaster> no
21:45:39 <ehird> IIRC
21:45:42 <oklopol> AnMaster: you're kinda missing the point of syntax.
21:45:47 <AnMaster> I wouldn't use filler words there
21:45:54 <psygnisfive> what would you use then
21:46:04 <AnMaster> oklopol, I'm talking about idiomatic Swedish in gnereal
21:46:11 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, my point exactly
21:46:22 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, "eftersom jag inte handlade"
21:46:23 <AnMaster> probably
21:46:27 <AnMaster> even spoken
21:46:28 <oklopol> AnMaster: not saying that's not an interesting topic
21:46:42 <AnMaster> "ska du inte ta och handla idag?" <-- asking someone if he/she shouldn't better go and shop. "should you not take and shop today?" is literal translation.
21:46:50 <psygnisfive> ah well.
21:47:04 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, also, "handla" == "act" as well as "shop"
21:47:13 <psygnisfive> ok.
21:47:19 <AnMaster> just to add to confusion :P
21:47:26 <psygnisfive> it doesnt.
21:47:38 <psygnisfive> the only thing thats relevant, anmaster, is the categories. not the words.
21:48:19 <psygnisfive> afk
21:48:21 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, meh then why don't you say "the adjective noun <whatever> adjective"
21:48:26 <AnMaster> instead of "the only thing thats relevant"
21:48:27 <AnMaster> ;P
21:48:36 <AnMaster> I think words are highly relevant to languages
21:48:46 <psygnisfive> yes, but not to the syntax :)
21:48:50 <AnMaster> true
21:48:54 <psygnisfive> afk
21:48:57 <psygnisfive> growing tomatoes
21:49:21 <ehird> ah
21:49:22 <ehird> The difference in all cases was small, and was due to the significantly smaller sized L2 cache on the processor cores, with each core able to access its own 256 kB of L2 cache. In contrast, the most recent Yorkfields have up to 12 MB of L2 cache. To help compensate, the Core i7 also has a new L3 cache of 8 MB, shared among all four cores, similar to AMD's "Barcelona" processors. This is due to the trend of games making use of more threads, and with hype
21:49:26 <ehird> r-threading (HT) the Core i7 can scale more than 4x faster, such as in cinebench tests.[25] However, more recent testing done on all clock rates of official hardware with final drivers and BIOS revisions show that Core i7 at the very least beats Yorkfield clock-for-clock, and in most cases exceeds it by an average of about 17%.
21:49:30 <ehird> that would explain some i7 bad reviews
21:51:38 <AnMaster> ehird, small cache?
21:51:55 <ehird> AnMaster: small L2, but the L3 makes up for it, is the impression I got
21:52:06 <AnMaster> ehird, L3 is way slower than L2 though
21:52:11 <fizzie> Hype-threading.
21:52:16 <ehird> sure
21:52:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, :D
21:52:23 <Deewiant> ehird: It's way way slower
21:52:42 <Deewiant> No chance of doing anything with L3, might as well forget about it
21:52:48 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm still not convinced it's such a big deal; I kind of doubt Intel would release a high-end processor with shitty cache
21:52:49 <AnMaster> ehird, you are talking about maybe 100 cycles on a L2 cache miss but L3 hit
21:53:01 <Deewiant> ehird: Think of the cycles
21:53:17 <ehird> Deewiant: I'll get a core 2 instead if it'll make you happy :-P
21:53:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you are trying to be sarcastic you are actually rather close to the truth instead
21:53:36 <Deewiant> ehird: It might, since your CPU won't be faster than mine then ;-)
21:53:37 <fizzie> "L3", it says, "is slow. Really slow. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindbogglingly slow it is. I mean you may think it's a slow walk down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to L3. Listen ..." and so on.
21:53:45 <fizzie> To paraphrase the Guide a bit.
21:53:45 <ehird> fizzie: :-D
21:54:05 <ehird> Deewiant: Nehalem has memory access something like 20% faster it said
21:54:08 <ehird> So I guess that offsets the cache too
21:54:17 <Deewiant> Sounds about right
21:54:51 <ehird> 256KB L2 passes that threshold of such a ridiculously low number that they must have thought about it really hard :-P
21:55:41 <ehird> Every processor has its downsides, anyway
21:56:01 <ehird> The 3.2ghz speed should do a nice job of papering over a lot of inefficiencies, I imagine
21:56:11 <Deewiant> 3.15 GHz here
21:56:18 <ehird> Deewiant: how much RAM?
21:56:22 <Deewiant> ehird: 8
21:56:32 <ehird> Deewiant: Darn, going for 6.
21:56:37 <Deewiant> :-P
21:56:43 <ehird> Deewiant: Uh. Harddrive?
21:56:48 <fizzie> Ooh, 966/1482 AI tournamet matches done. It'll be ready soon. (I'm sure you all find this terribly interesting, but isn't this quite the e/n channel anyway?)
21:56:53 <AnMaster> <ehird> 256KB L2 passes that threshold of such a ridiculously low number that they must have thought about it really hard :-P <-- yes... "I think we can pull this off because no one would think we were that stupid without a damn good reason"
21:56:55 <AnMaster> yes indeed
21:56:57 <AnMaster> they thought hard
21:57:00 <Deewiant> ehird: Nothing fast, just a 'plain' 1.5 TB from Seagate
21:57:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Look I have *some* faith in companies :-P
21:57:21 <Deewiant> fizzie: Do you have any tentative statistics?
21:57:29 <ehird> Deewiant: 10K RPM IN YOUR FACE. Although that's only for the OS HD.
21:57:30 <AnMaster> ehird, "no one will notice if this division isn't correct anyway"
21:57:31 <AnMaster> or
21:57:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: Just results: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/ai-2009.txt
21:57:39 <ehird> AnMaster: I think we all learned from the FDIV bug.
21:57:44 <fizzie> Deewiant: My statistics-calculation script expects a full matrix of games. :p
21:57:47 <AnMaster> "well this way for user space to lock up the CPU would be nice"
21:57:53 <Deewiant> ehird: Well, I would've got an Intel X60 if it weren't for the fact that it would've doubled the price of the whole machine :-P
21:58:02 <AnMaster> "and since everyone use DOS or win95 anyway, no one will care"
21:58:03 <AnMaster> :P
21:58:08 <ehird> "intel x60"?
21:58:09 <AnMaster> or something like that
21:58:09 <Deewiant> fizzie: Meh :-P
21:58:27 <Deewiant> ehird: Er, x25.
21:58:33 <Deewiant> x60 is the laptop. :-P
21:58:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it was f00f bug
21:58:42 <AnMaster> or something
21:58:52 <ehird> 21:57 AnMaster: ehird, "no one will notice if this division isn't correct anyway"
21:58:58 <ehird> Deewiant: Time to compete on minor aspects.
21:58:59 <Deewiant> fizzie: I'm amused by the number of crashes
21:59:03 <ehird> Deewiant: WHAT WATTAGE IS YOUR POWER SUPPLY
21:59:08 <AnMaster> ehird, well I meant the other one
21:59:10 <Deewiant> ehird: 850 WATTS
21:59:12 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc something like LOCK CMPXCHG %rax,%rax
21:59:14 <AnMaster> err
21:59:17 <AnMaster> %eax
21:59:18 <ehird> Deewiant: FUCK YOU, 800 :-(
21:59:22 <Deewiant> ehird: HA HA
21:59:27 <ehird> Deewiant: HOW FAST IS YOUR DVDRW
21:59:31 <Deewiant> ehird: NO FUCKING CLUE
21:59:34 <Deewiant> ehird: LET ME CHECK
21:59:37 <ehird> Deewiant: OKAY, BITCH
21:59:53 <fizzie> Deewiant: One rather new innovation was to give (with the "normalized score" that's at the bottom of that results listing) also the min- and max-scores that are still possible (by losing/winning all the remaining games).
22:00:03 <ehird> fizzie: HE IS BUSY ARGUING WITH ME
22:00:06 <ehird> fizzie: PLEASE DO NOT DISTURB
22:00:08 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, I think there's a bit more crashes than last year.
22:00:14 <fizzie> ehird: SORRY TO BE DISTURBINK
22:00:37 <Deewiant> ehird: FFS I DON'T KNOW, ALL I REMEMBER IS THAT IT'S A NEC ND3520A
22:00:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, why the accent
22:00:52 <Deewiant> ehird: You probably win on that count since it's old, doesn't read DLs for instance
22:01:01 <ehird> Deewiant: YOU FORGOT CAPS
22:01:09 <AnMaster> ehird, any hardware midi
22:01:09 <ehird> Deewiant: OKAY, HOW BIG IS YOUR MONITOR?!?!?
22:01:12 <Deewiant> ehird: Caps only when I'm winning
22:01:16 <Deewiant> ehird: 26 INCHES
22:01:17 <ehird> :-D
22:01:22 <fizzie> Deewiant: That "boar" bot there which has crashed all games has a "move()" method that has the form "do(); stuff(); and(); stuff(); /* something(); */ return null;"
22:01:22 <ehird> Deewiant: HA! I AM GOING FOR 28-30
22:01:30 <Deewiant> ehird: OH NOES
22:01:33 <AnMaster> ...
22:01:46 <ehird> 0???
22:01:48 <Deewiant> ehird: BUT IS IT TN, S-IPS, S-PVA, MVA, WAT
22:01:49 <ehird> I HAVE 2
22:01:55 <fizzie> My monitor is 43 inches, if you just sum the two monitor diagonals together. :p
22:02:00 <ehird> Deewiant: IT'S BUTTACULAR
22:02:07 <ehird> Deewiant: HOW MANY FLOPPY DRIVES DO YOU HAVE?
22:02:10 <ehird> I HAVE 0. LOWER IS BETTER.
22:02:12 <Deewiant> ehird: ONE IN THIS MACHINE
22:02:15 <AnMaster> ehird, ANY HARDWARE MIDI‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽
22:02:16 <Deewiant> ehird: THE MORE THE MERRIER
22:02:32 <ehird> I DON'T GET IT MAN
22:02:53 <ehird> Deewiant: WHAT DBA DOES YOUR POWER SUPPLY RUN AT
22:02:58 <fizzie> A friend bought a catweasel device: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_Computers_Catweasel
22:03:00 <ehird> HEYYYYYYYYYYYY
22:03:02 <ehird> MINE IS 850 WATTS
22:03:03 <ehird> HA
22:03:04 <fizzie> Re floppy drives, that is.
22:03:05 <ehird> YOU DIDN'T BEAT M3
22:03:05 <Deewiant> ehird: I DON'T HAVE A MEASURING DEVICE
22:03:20 <ehird> UM
22:03:20 <ehird> HM
22:03:22 <Deewiant> ehird: DOES YOUR GPU HAVE ONBOARD AUDIO??!1
22:03:50 <Deewiant> ehird: IT SUX MINE IS 4870
22:03:57 <ehird> Deewiant: DEFINE "SUX"
22:04:04 <Deewiant> ehird: 'CRAPTASTIC'
22:04:22 <fizzie> "The 4870 is like 20 units better!"
22:04:23 <AnMaster> well ATI... sucks yeah
22:04:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, units of what
22:04:46 <Deewiant> ehird: I AM VERY SERIOUS
22:04:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: Whatever they're using in those numbers. Qubits, maybe.
22:04:47 <AnMaster> nvidia geforce 7600. low end yes
22:04:57 <ehird> Deewiant: in lowercase, is this serious serious?
22:04:57 <ehird> :<<
22:05:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you really think so
22:05:12 <Deewiant> ehird: Nah, I think it's the next-best thing after 4870.
22:05:15 <ehird> phew
22:05:15 <ehird> okay
22:05:17 <ehird> BACK TO ARGUING
22:05:19 <fizzie> Well, the 7600 is something like over three thousand units better.
22:05:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, that's ati vs. geforce though
22:05:43 <Deewiant> ehird: Checked a bit: 4870, 3870X2, 4850
22:05:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:05:49 <AnMaster> that's like inches vs cm
22:05:51 <fizzie> AnMaster: "OpenGL renderer string: GeForce 7600 GT/PCI/SSE2" here.
22:05:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, what tool
22:06:11 <fizzie> AnMaster: glxinfo, in the middle of the messy output.
22:06:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, and mine is "GS"
22:06:13 <ehird> HMMMM
22:06:25 <AnMaster> OpenGL renderer string: GeForce 7600 GS/AGP/SSE2
22:06:26 <AnMaster> that
22:06:27 <AnMaster> maybe
22:06:34 <ehird> MINE IS 100% ODD
22:06:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah I have a low end mobo
22:06:49 <Deewiant> ehird: IT IS A POWER OF TWO, HENCE EVEN
22:06:55 <ehird> HA!
22:06:56 <ehird> I WIN
22:06:58 <ehird> HMM
22:06:59 <Asztal_> They pale in comparison to the 4870X2. :P
22:07:01 <Deewiant> ehird: WAT
22:07:03 <oklopol> fizzie: what was the game?
22:07:08 <ehird> Deewiant: ODDER IS BETTER
22:07:12 <ehird> Asztal_: IF YOU PLAY CRYSIS MAYBE
22:07:14 <Deewiant> ehird: AHA
22:07:16 <fizzie> oklopol: http://www.niksula.hut.fi/~svirpioj/hierarkia/
22:07:24 <ehird> Deewiant: HOW BLACK IS YOUR CASE
22:07:26 <Deewiant> Asztal_: Well, I can't think of an app where it'd actually matter, currently. :-P
22:07:27 <ehird> MINE IS VERY BLACK http://www.endpcnoise.com/e/images/p182.jpg
22:07:32 <Deewiant> ehird: SAME CASE
22:07:33 <AnMaster> ehird, err... 3145728 bytes right
22:07:42 <Deewiant> Asztal_: Except 3DMark, but that doesn't count. :-P
22:07:42 <ehird> AnMaster: SCUSE ME?
22:07:42 <AnMaster> YOUR MEMORY IS 3145728 BYTES RIGHT
22:07:45 <Asztal_> Deewiant: it functions quite well as a heater :D
22:07:49 <AnMaster> ehird, yes or no
22:07:51 <ehird> Deewiant: SAME CASE? HOLY SHIET
22:07:51 <Deewiant> Asztal_: Well yeah :-D
22:07:54 <ehird> NOT SAME PEOPLE I ASSUME
22:07:56 <Deewiant> ehird: P182B YES
22:08:00 <ehird> AnMaster: I SAID IN GIGABYTES
22:08:01 <Asztal_> (It's not mine, though, I have a 8800 GTS)
22:08:19 <AnMaster> ehird, IS YOUR RAM 3221225472 BYTES LARGE THEN. YES OR NO
22:08:32 <ehird> Deewiant: WELL, ENDPCNOISE.COM MAY HAVE HAD TO, IT'S THE FIRST ONE HERE http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/20012.html ASK THEM
22:08:36 <AnMaster> BECAUSE THAT IS EVEN
22:08:42 <ehird> AnMaster: I SAID "IN GIGABYTES"
22:08:44 <ehird> AnMaster: FOO
22:08:48 <Deewiant> ehird: THAT IS YOUR CPU NOT YOUR GPU
22:08:54 <AnMaster> ehird, THAT'S NOT IMPORTANT
22:08:55 <ehird> Deewiant: OH I MISREAD
22:09:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, great line
22:09:05 <fizzie> My case is also black, but it's not as black: http://www.cclonline.com/resize-image.asp?image_id=3008&height=300&width=300&mode=box&bgcolor=ffffff
22:09:08 <ehird> AnMaster: ALSO, 6GB NOT 3GB
22:09:19 <AnMaster> ehird, ok but still even
22:09:32 <AnMaster> oklopol, REALLY. PLEASE TELL US MORE
22:09:42 <ehird> http://www.endpcnoise.com/e/images/gigabyte_4850.jpg
22:09:56 <AnMaster> <ehird> Deewiant: WELL, ENDPCNOISE.COM MAY HAVE HAD TO, IT'S THE FIRST ONE HERE http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/20012.html ASK THEM <-- what a joke
22:10:04 <ehird> AnMaster: DEFINE "JOKE"
22:10:12 <AnMaster> ehird, stupid, crap, insane
22:10:16 <ehird> AnMaster: IN WHICH SENSE?
22:10:20 <ehird> I DON'T GET WHAT YOU'RE SAYING
22:10:24 <AnMaster> ehird, in an upright case that would be very heavy on the mobo
22:10:29 <AnMaster> pull a great load
22:10:37 <AnMaster> since it is so unbalanaced
22:10:59 <ehird> Deewiant: HOW MUCH DID YOUR COMPUTER COST
22:11:01 <ehird> IN TOTAL
22:11:04 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, but how do you handle the heavy unbalanced load
22:11:06 <Deewiant> ehird: MILLIONS AND MILLIONS
22:11:10 <ehird> AnMaster: I DON'T KNOW LOL
22:11:14 <ehird> Deewiant: IN REAL MONEY
22:11:29 <AnMaster> oklopol, wow
22:11:29 <AnMaster> that's interesting
22:11:36 <psygnisfive> BACK DESU YO
22:11:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, :D
22:11:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I arrest you for overuse of capslock
22:12:00 <AnMaster> and Deewiant too
22:12:02 <ehird> AnMaster: CRUISE CONTROL → COOL
22:12:06 <ehird> Deewiant: IN REAL MONEY
22:12:14 <AnMaster> ehird, err, what
22:12:21 <fizzie> (I'll be mostly away now, all the shouting is giving me a headache.)
22:12:22 <AnMaster> ...has that got to do with computers
22:12:22 <Deewiant> ehird: 299 PLUS 244 PLUS 586.3 PLUS 385 PLUS SOMETHING LIKE 100 FOR THE WINCHESTER
22:12:25 <ehird> AnMaster: CAPS LOCK = CRUSE CONTROL FOR COOL
22:12:34 <ehird> Deewiant: WHAT CURRENCY IS THIS, EUROS?
22:12:39 <AnMaster> ehird, that's a urban myth.
22:12:40 <Deewiant> ehird: OF COURSE, YOU SAID REAL MONEY
22:12:43 <psygnisfive> fizzie, hopefully that helped before
22:12:44 <AnMaster> didn't you know
22:12:57 <ehird> SO £1460
22:13:08 <Deewiant> ehird: Including monitor, ofc.
22:13:15 <Deewiant> That's the 385.
22:13:19 <AnMaster> ehird, it makes you look stoopid.
22:13:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "PLUS SOMETHING LIKE 100 FOR THE WINCHESTER"
22:13:46 <ehird> *LEST
22:13:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what winchester
22:13:59 <ehird> AnMaster: EVERY COMPUTER NEEDS ITS OWN GUN
22:14:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: fi:winsu
22:14:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, windows
22:14:21 <AnMaster> maybe
22:14:34 <AnMaster> but that makes no sense
22:14:34 <ehird> no it's a port of su(1) to windows
22:14:35 <AnMaster> why would anyone by windows
22:14:39 <Deewiant> I don't pay for Windows, what do you take me for ;-D
22:14:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well you used windows before
22:15:01 <Deewiant> ehird: ZERO
22:15:05 <ehird> Deewiant: DITTO BITCH
22:15:17 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but that wouldn't be very legal
22:15:24 <ehird> Deewiant: HOW MANY TIMES IS IT INSULATED WITH THIS: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/1104470.html#acousti
22:15:28 <ehird> AnMaster: LOTS OF THINGS AREN'T
22:15:29 <AnMaster> unless it is open source
22:15:35 <AnMaster> ehird, thus avoid them.
22:15:43 <AnMaster> indeed
22:15:48 <Deewiant> ehird: ⅕
22:15:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't pay for windows, and I don't use it
22:16:03 <Deewiant> I think I've had enough of shouting for now.
22:16:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, same
22:16:17 <AnMaster> ehird, err games, you don't need them
22:16:20 <Deewiant> ehird: Magic
22:16:25 <ehird> AnMaster: SOME PEOPLE ENJOY THEM I HEAR
22:16:33 <AnMaster> ehird, sure but that is not same as "need"
22:16:44 <ehird> AnMaster: YOU DON'T "NEED" A COMPUTER.
22:16:50 <Deewiant> ehird: It is insulated by the powers of my mind
22:16:51 <ehird> YOU DON'T "NEED" MUCH AT ALL
22:16:57 <ehird> Deewiant: OOH SNEAKY
22:17:25 <AnMaster> ehird, my case is insulated, with metal. Built into the case even.
22:17:26 <AnMaster> :D
22:17:50 <AnMaster> ehird, and... I have dust filters at the air intakes
22:17:52 <AnMaster> do you?
22:17:57 <Deewiant> ehird: BTW, those tricool fans or whatever they're called are a bit loud IMHO, I've been thinking of replacing them with Noctuas
22:17:58 <ais523> what's with all the shouting?
22:18:06 <ehird> ais523: me and Deewiant having a computer pissing match
22:18:08 <Deewiant> TBH I'm not sure whether they or my GPU are making more noise
22:18:11 <ehird> caps lock is mandatory
22:18:18 <ehird> Deewiant: Yar, that's a shame
22:18:24 <ehird> Deewiant: Define a bit loud
22:18:24 <ais523> oh, in that case my computer is worse than yours, and I'm proud of it
22:18:28 <fizzie> psygnisfive: Sure. I probably should've done some of the language technology courses they have at our university (there's a language technology specification option, which has a pile of courses from the linguistics department of our neighbour university) to be more conversant about the topic, but couldn't fit them in my schedule. (Still not really here.)
22:18:32 <Deewiant> ehird: Loudest part of my computer or not
22:18:33 <ehird> AnMaster: no, because it'll be hot enough anyway
22:18:43 <ehird> Deewiant: Gee thanks
22:18:49 <ehird> Deewiant: that is worrying though.
22:18:51 <Deewiant> ehird: I don't know.
22:18:58 <Deewiant> ehird: According to your standards probably eardrum-breaking
22:18:59 <psygnisfive> fizzie: i can give you some intros to the topic if you want.
22:19:05 <psygnisfive> just let me know if you do.
22:19:20 <ehird> Deewiant: Well, the nopcnoise guys seem to be a lot more obsessed than I, so I'm wondering why they'd recommend a case with loud fans
22:19:31 <ais523> how did people get on with my Enigma level, by the way?
22:19:33 <Deewiant> ehird: Maybe it's just me then.
22:19:35 <ais523> or did nobody want to try?
22:19:44 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but I have a case fan to pull air through instead
22:19:48 <oklopol> ais523: i wanted, i just don't feel like i have the time
22:19:49 <ehird> AnMaster: so do I.
22:19:53 <ehird> Deewiant: There is an "extreme" version with a different case, I'll look at that
22:19:59 <ais523> oklopol: ah, ok
22:20:02 <oklopol> of course, i would've had.
22:20:05 <Deewiant> ehird: You can always just remove the fans :-P
22:20:10 <ais523> it's not a very oklopoly level anyway
22:20:15 <ehird> Deewiant: Hrm.
22:20:20 <ehird> Deewiant: Would that cause any problems?
22:20:27 <ehird> (If not, whtf are they in...)
22:20:30 <oklopol> but i have less and less time for it as time goes by
22:20:48 <oklopol> ais523: explain a bit, i don't have enigma
22:20:54 <AnMaster> ehird, overheating I guess
22:20:59 <Deewiant> ehird: Well, your stuff will be hotter. Whether it's problematic or not depends on your stuff.
22:21:04 <oklopol> (and i don't read the code)
22:21:08 <AnMaster> ehird, you could use water cooling of course.
22:21:15 <ehird> AnMaster: NO. FUCKING. WAY.
22:21:16 <ais523> oklopol: basically, you have a black and a white ball
22:21:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I understand you there :D
22:21:26 <ais523> and a few yinyang stones that need changing
22:21:31 <ais523> but it's obvious what happens to them
22:21:32 <Deewiant> I initially didn't have one of the fans in place since some stuff had to be moved around; when it was reattached my hard drives went down by 10 K
22:21:38 <ais523> however, you only have one yinyang item between the two balls
22:21:44 <Asztal_> My friend uses water cooling... it really just doesn't seem worth the effort.
22:21:48 <ehird> Deewiant: I don't think I have anything high-spec apart from the i7 965 3.2ghz and the fanless 1gb radeon hd 4850
22:21:54 <ais523> so you have to work out how to get it and the other items you need, like a magic wand over the right, back and forth
22:22:01 <ehird> Deewiant: Though, that acoustipak thing will probably make it a bit hotter in there.
22:22:20 <AnMaster> ehird, go low spec then
22:22:31 <ehird> AnMaster: No :-)
22:22:31 <AnMaster> or noisy in different room
22:22:40 <AnMaster> I suggested that several times
22:22:45 <ehird> It's not an option
22:22:47 <ehird> This house is tiny, no space
22:22:51 <AnMaster> meh
22:22:56 <ehird> Heck, my desk can't be much longer than 80cm
22:23:02 <ehird> Or I couldn't move around in my room
22:23:06 <ehird> Since it'd block a pathway
22:23:07 <AnMaster> ehird, put it in your parents bedroom (disconnect reset button first)
22:23:11 <AnMaster> :D
22:23:16 <ehird> Heh.
22:23:31 <ehird> Anyway, I'd like to get as powerful as possible while being basically silent.
22:23:36 <ehird> This is difficult
22:23:53 <AnMaster> ehird, well, you could go non-x86, those are pretty powerful iirc
22:24:06 <Deewiant> Atom!
22:24:06 <ehird> I don't consider something that doesn' twork with other stuff powerful
22:24:07 <AnMaster> not sure about noise level of the last sun work station
22:24:14 <ehird> Deewiant: Kid. :-P
22:24:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Aren't Suns generally loud as fuck
22:24:25 <Deewiant> ehird: Quiet, I guess :-P
22:24:30 <AnMaster> ehird, unknown
22:25:00 <AnMaster> ehird, wait for a while and use laberre or whatever the name was for that hyped intel thingy for gpu
22:25:07 <ehird> larrabee
22:25:10 <AnMaster> ah
22:25:14 <ehird> I don't see myself needing magic gpu powah any time soon
22:25:20 <ehird> I'm not that parallel of a guy.
22:25:29 <AnMaster> err
22:25:39 <AnMaster> last line: parse error
22:26:10 <AnMaster> ehird, ...
22:27:18 <ehird> Darn, apparently the i7s tend to lead to more noise.
22:27:24 <ehird> Why does compromise exist
22:28:57 <AnMaster> well I can understand they are noisy
22:29:06 <AnMaster> ehird, go test the computer in the shop before buying
22:29:11 <AnMaster> best way to be sure
22:29:14 <ehird> There is no "shop".
22:29:25 <ehird> It's a custom-configured, built-to-ship PC bought from an internet-only company.
22:29:28 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, that is why I tend to avoid shopping over internet
22:29:39 <ehird> AnMaster: I couldn't get exactly what I want anywhere else
22:30:16 <AnMaster> ehird, well, how will you solve this if you need a laptop...
22:30:19 <AnMaster> just wondering
22:30:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Hm?
22:30:35 <oklopol> internet shopping is pretty stupid, i want things *now*, not in a week
22:30:41 <AnMaster> ehird, harder with custom components
22:31:00 <AnMaster> oklopol, I want to see that they work like I want before I buy, as in test it to see noise level or such
22:31:08 <AnMaster> and how the keyboard feels
22:31:36 <oklopol> i don't, i just take a cute one.
22:31:49 <AnMaster> Swedish proverb: "köp inte grisen i säcken" (do not buy the pig in the sack). I don't know what the English equivalent would be.
22:32:09 <oklopol> err i should know this
22:32:18 <AnMaster> oh?
22:32:43 <oklopol> well know quite a lot of english in theory
22:32:49 <Deewiant> Don't buy a pig in a poke
22:33:07 <oklopol> don't poke a pig in a pie
22:33:12 <AnMaster> err
22:33:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do you mean "in a poke"
22:33:52 <AnMaster> isn't "poke" a verb
22:34:04 <oklopol> in english everything is everything.
22:34:08 <AnMaster> meh
22:34:14 <AnMaster> that explains a lot I guess.
22:34:18 <Deewiant> I do not 'mean' anything, I gave you the correct English equivalent of that proverb
22:34:27 <AnMaster> ok
22:34:30 <Deewiant> In this case, 'poke' means essentially a bag
22:34:41 <Deewiant> So it's the same thing, that's just the word used
22:35:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, never heard "poke" in that meaning before..
22:35:28 <Deewiant> FWIW I think it's archaic or very regional at the least
22:35:37 <AnMaster> aha
22:35:42 <AnMaster> that would explain it
22:35:55 <Deewiant> I don't think I've ever witnessed its use outside that phrase
22:37:26 <ehird> Deewiant: so, about those case fans -- would you recommend taking them out?
22:37:28 <ehird> I guess not since you haven't
22:37:46 <Deewiant> I prefer safety/longevity over complete silence
22:37:53 <Deewiant> Might as well use them since they're there
22:37:53 <ehird> :-)
22:38:00 <ehird> Yeah, I'm not risking anything.
22:38:28 <Deewiant> What I should do some time is boot without the GPU and ponder the noise level
22:39:10 <ehird> Deewiant: Thing is, if I go with a core 2, the only fan left would be the PSU. But then I'm limited to a core 2 and 4GB of RAM.
22:39:28 <Deewiant> Whence the 4 limit?
22:39:44 <ehird> Deewiant: endpcnoise don't sell more than 4. I could buy 8 seperately. But then I am still limited to Core 2.
22:40:04 <Deewiant> Well, of course if you consider Core 2 a limitation :-P
22:40:26 <Deewiant> Well, maybe it is nowadays; I bought my machine in November
22:40:29 <ehird> Compared to an i7? Yes, I would
22:41:02 <ehird> Dear god,
22:41:11 <Deewiant> ehird: I consider the i7 a limitation compared to BlueGene/L
22:41:11 <ehird> Please make an i7 machine with a fanless cooler and no case fans.
22:41:12 <ehird> Love,
22:41:13 <ehird> Elliott
22:41:25 <ehird> Deewiant: The BlueGene/L is not in my price range.
22:41:37 <Deewiant> As the i7 wasn't in mine. :-)
22:42:33 <ehird> http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=51642 ← Gotta love how he asks if it'll be silent then lists 20 billion fans
22:43:19 <Deewiant> Well he can't speak English
22:43:27 <Deewiant> He probably meant quiet
22:43:34 <ehird> :-)
22:43:54 <Deewiant> I'm going to sleep now, as I have to wake up in 6ish hours
22:44:02 <ehird> bye
22:44:07 <Deewiant> - >
22:44:25 <AnMaster> ehird, how is 4 GB too small
22:44:27 <AnMaster> I mean
22:44:31 <AnMaster> I manage fine on 1.5
22:44:43 <ehird> AnMaster: I manage fine with core 2 duo 2.2ghz with 2.5GB of ram
22:44:51 <ehird> But I'm upgrading, and I've set out to get a high end machin
22:44:51 <ehird> e
22:44:54 <AnMaster> ehird, then why the need for 8 instead of 4
22:44:56 <AnMaster> meh
22:45:00 <ehird> In this context, 4GB is very small compared to the 6/8 I've looked at
22:45:10 <AnMaster> ehird, it will be low end in a few years anyway
22:45:12 <AnMaster> why bother
22:45:20 <ehird> AnMaster: No, it'll be mid end in a few years, most likely.
22:45:33 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you define "few"
22:45:37 <AnMaster> I define it as 5-6
22:45:41 <AnMaster> in this case
22:45:42 <ehird> AnMaster: I meant 3 or so
22:45:45 <AnMaster> ah
22:45:52 <ehird> In 5 years I'll be 18
22:45:56 <ehird> I can't really predict that far
22:45:57 <AnMaster> ehird, oh dear
22:46:02 <ehird> So it's not worth thinking about
22:46:25 <AnMaster> in 5 years I will be 24... oh dear
22:46:35 <ehird> It's a long time. Half a decade.
22:46:37 <AnMaster> yeah I see what you mean
22:46:46 <AnMaster> ehird, short in a cosmic perspective
22:46:55 <ehird> Everything's short in a cosmic perspective
22:47:28 <AnMaster> ehird, not really, "time until heat death" is not short
22:47:39 <ehird> true
22:47:52 <Asztal_> it is compared to the time after heat death!
22:47:58 * ehird thinks about non-core-2-vs-i7 things
22:47:59 <AnMaster> ehird, "current age of universe" isn't that small either
22:48:02 <ehird> Like, say, getting a decent 30" monitor.
22:48:08 <ehird> and kb/mouse.
22:48:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Sure it is, compared to time until heat death
22:48:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I tried a 30" once, I ended up using a single area near the middle of the screen
22:48:33 <AnMaster> really it is too large to be very useful
22:48:41 <AnMaster> only when editing images do you use the full area
22:48:47 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm on a 20" right now. It's stifling.
22:48:50 <ehird> I don't do virtual desktops
22:49:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I do that but I only use the first one
22:49:01 <AnMaster> :D
22:49:09 <Asztal_> get another 20" then :)
22:49:11 <AnMaster> well I have some rarely used windows on the second one
22:49:15 <ehird> Asztal_: The 20" is an iMac
22:49:18 <ehird> I'm not using an imac as a monitor
22:49:19 <AnMaster> Asztal, that is just as bad, I tried it too
22:49:23 <ehird> That's just sillydiculous
22:49:28 <ehird> AnMaster: My market is 26-30", really
22:49:35 <ehird> The main requirement is high DPI.
22:49:43 <ehird> Must not be lower than about 95, preferably 100+
22:50:05 <AnMaster> ehird, 26" may work, but trust me 30" is just way too big. Go try one in a shop if you want it. Because really it is a waste of money
22:50:19 <ehird> AnMaster: How many windows do you have open atm?
22:50:33 <ehird> I have 13 open, most of which are large browser windows.
22:50:34 <AnMaster> ehird, a sec
22:50:38 <AnMaster> 12
22:50:42 <ehird> How many are large?
22:50:55 <AnMaster> wait no, 14, gimp ones group
22:51:03 <ehird> Anyway, I'm leaning towards 26"
22:51:04 <AnMaster> ehird, all of them
22:51:09 <ehird> Since that gives me high DPI
22:51:14 <ehird> And I'm also small
22:51:18 <AnMaster> and yes they overlap, since I don't use all at once
22:51:22 <ehird> Don't want to crane my neck
22:51:34 <ehird> AnMaster: is your monitor widescreen?
22:51:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I ended up with a hurting neck on that 30" and I'm tall and large
22:51:52 <AnMaster> ehird, this one? no
22:51:56 <AnMaster> I tried widescreen too, hate it
22:52:04 <ehird> Wow, 26" @ 1920x1200 is only 87DPI
22:52:07 <AnMaster> end up shaking my head
22:52:14 <ehird> That's crap
22:52:18 <AnMaster> ehird, I might know what you need
22:52:19 <AnMaster> a sec
22:52:22 * AnMaster looks for link
22:52:25 <ehird> AnMaster: I need widescreen :-P
22:52:30 <AnMaster> welll
22:52:32 <AnMaster> well*
22:52:34 <AnMaster> this is high res
22:52:36 <AnMaster> let me find it
22:52:49 <ehird> Is it going to be monochrome or something silly like that
22:52:50 <AnMaster> and high dpi
22:52:55 <AnMaster> ehird, no colour iirc
22:52:59 <ehird> Forget it :-)
22:53:07 <AnMaster> why
22:53:14 <ehird> Because I won't use it? :P
22:53:17 <AnMaster> it *is* colour
22:53:29 <ehird> oh
22:53:31 <ehird> "no colour iirc"
22:53:32 <ehird> parsed as
22:53:35 <ehird> "No colour, iirc"
22:53:36 <AnMaster> no,*
22:53:36 <ehird> instead of
22:53:37 <AnMaster> sorry
22:53:40 <ehird> "No, colour, iirc"
22:53:42 <ehird> Hmm
22:53:49 <ehird> 2048x1536 seems to be the perfect res for a 26" display
22:53:50 <ehird> 98 DPI
22:54:18 <ehird> Of course, you don't want too big a resolution
22:54:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I think the brand was NEC
22:54:23 <ehird> Or you can't see anything!
22:54:26 <AnMaster> can't find the link right now
22:54:35 <ehird> AnMaster: What size/res, roughly?
22:55:01 <AnMaster> ehird, different sizes, from 17-40 iirc or s
22:55:02 <AnMaster> so*
22:55:08 <ehird> My current display is 105DPI
22:55:11 <ehird> Says http://members.ping.de/~sven/dpi.html
22:55:14 <AnMaster> as for DPI huge
22:55:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Like 1000dpi or something?
22:55:28 <ehird> I'm not that crazy
22:55:32 <AnMaster> ehird, more like 300
22:55:53 <ehird> Wait, my current dpi is 99
22:56:17 <ehird> Bah
22:56:23 <ehird> Why isn't there a good 26" display
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22:58:17 <ehird> Blar
22:58:59 <ehird> This is all so complicated
22:59:14 <AnMaster> ehird, meh can't find it. But it was tall-screen rather than wide-screen iirc.
22:59:21 <ehird> AnMaster: ah./
22:59:34 <ehird> I'm going to play widescreen video
22:59:38 <ehird> So it really is a must
22:59:41 <AnMaster> ehird, and it was insanely priced
22:59:54 <ehird> I figured
22:59:58 <AnMaster> some 10 000 USD or something iirc
23:00:04 <ehird> I use bitmaps quite a lot
23:00:08 <ehird> So I don't want too high DPI
23:00:12 <ehird> 100 or so is just perfect for me
23:00:18 <AnMaster> ehird, except in the area where you render fonts
23:00:21 <AnMaster> idea:
23:00:22 <AnMaster> two screens
23:00:26 <AnMaster> the one for bitmaps
23:00:32 <AnMaster> and the one for text
23:00:32 <AnMaster> :D
23:00:33 <ehird> AnMaster: 100DPI is completely sufficient for rendering fonts smoothl
23:00:34 <ehird> y
23:00:39 <AnMaster> mhm
23:01:01 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the resolution of your mouse?
23:01:24 <ehird> This is a shitty optical mouse
23:01:25 <ehird> Very low
23:01:30 <ehird> I will buy a better one when I upgrade
23:01:37 <AnMaster> this is a nice optical mouse
23:01:39 <AnMaster> some 3000 DPI iirc
23:01:44 <AnMaster> or so
23:01:49 <ehird> I'm an inaccurate pointer
23:01:52 <ehird> So that's useless to me
23:02:09 <AnMaster> ehird, well you have to scale the value in xorg.conf
23:02:24 <ehird> I never want to touch xorg.conf
23:02:37 <AnMaster> Option "Sensitivity" "0.4"
23:02:39 <AnMaster> that works well
23:02:40 <ehird> That is my goal
23:02:44 <AnMaster> ehird, meh
23:02:49 <ais523> you don't normally have to touch any of the config files under Ubuntu
23:02:56 <AnMaster> ais523, how boring
23:03:03 <ais523> how let-me-get-on-with-things
23:03:21 <ehird> Hmm
23:03:26 <ehird> So my current display is 100 dpi
23:03:30 <ehird> most 26"s are 87 dpi
23:03:35 <ehird> Grr.
23:05:11 <ehird> Ah, my old display was 86 d[o
23:05:11 <ehird> dpi
23:05:15 <ehird> and I could see the pixels easily
23:05:22 <ehird> So definitely, regular 26"s won't do
23:05:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Recommend a good monitor company?
23:05:55 <ais523> System | Preferences | Screen Resolution seems to get better with each version of Ubuntu
23:06:12 <ais523> all it actually does is rewrite xorg.conf, but it's a lot easier than touching that
23:06:21 <ehird> yes
23:06:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I was happy with my old Samsung for many many years
23:06:29 <ehird> even better is autodetecting
23:06:31 <AnMaster> a syncmaster
23:06:32 <ais523> and System | Preferences | Mouse lets you set mouse speed pretty easily
23:06:36 <ais523> ehird: it does autodetect normally
23:06:40 <ehird> I know
23:06:41 <ehird> I have used ubuntu ais523
23:06:43 <ais523> but things like dual monitors you normally need to mess with it
23:06:43 <AnMaster> ehird, in the end it died of old age
23:06:48 <AnMaster> ehird, modern ones are better
23:07:00 <AnMaster> ais523, xorg.conf is easy..,
23:07:03 <AnMaster> ...*
23:07:09 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not neccessary
23:07:11 <ehird> and shouldn't be
23:07:16 <ehird> it's bad UI, nothing more, nothing less
23:07:19 <ehird> internally? fine
23:07:23 <ehird> as a user interface? no way!
23:07:26 <AnMaster> you are crazy
23:07:30 <ais523> yep, and having it as an internal format makes it easy to back up, etc
23:07:30 <ehird> no
23:07:33 <ehird> I'm reasonable
23:07:39 <ais523> as a user interface, though, it has various problems
23:07:40 <AnMaster> why not use a, I don't know... registry or something
23:07:40 <ehird> you're an ubergeek who doesn't care about usability
23:07:41 <AnMaster> internally
23:07:42 <AnMaster> :D
23:07:48 <ais523> for instance, you have to keep resaving and so on every now and then to test your changes
23:07:54 <ehird> I don't _need_ usability
23:07:57 <ehird> But I demand it
23:08:01 <ais523> whereas you just change an option in the Ubuntu GUIs and it starts working
23:08:04 <ehird> Because it's a smoother system
23:08:07 <ais523> for me, usability's just a way of doing other things faster
23:08:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I find a text config *MORE USABLE* than a confusing GUI
23:08:16 <ehird> AnMaster: That's why you need a non-confusing GUI
23:08:17 <AnMaster> so yes I care about usability
23:08:19 <ehird> False dichotomy
23:08:24 <ais523> AnMaster: confusing? Gnome are really insistent about keeping the GUI dumbed down a lot
23:08:29 <AnMaster> ehird, show me one that isn't confusing
23:08:29 <ais523> KDE people laugh at them because of it
23:08:37 <ais523> AnMaster: anything that isn't KDE
23:08:39 <ehird> AnMaster: OS X's monitor gui, gnome's, ...
23:08:47 <ehird> KDE does really get it wrong in this respec
23:08:48 <ehird> t
23:08:49 <ehird> Massively
23:08:50 <ais523> KDE's confusingness is good in a way, but it's the GUI equivalent of a conffile
23:08:51 <AnMaster> ais523, KDE is less confusing than Gnome. At least the option is there
23:08:58 <AnMaster> with gnome you find there is no option
23:09:01 <AnMaster> which is EVEN worse
23:09:01 <ehird> >_<
23:09:05 <ais523> well, the screensaver thing is silly, definitely
23:09:12 <ehird> ais523: 'screensaver thing'?
23:09:28 <AnMaster> ehird, "<AnMaster> with gnome you find there is no option <AnMaster> which is EVEN worse [than confusing]"
23:09:37 <AnMaster> now stop saying I don't know what confusing is
23:09:41 <ais523> ehird: Gnome has no option to configure screensavers
23:09:49 <ehird> ais523: You sure?
23:09:50 <AnMaster> and I want a powerful GUI which isn't confusing
23:09:51 <ehird> Ubuntu does, I think
23:09:52 <AnMaster> then maybe
23:09:56 <ais523> because the person in charge of commits in that part of Gnome has a personal vendetta against it
23:10:00 <ehird> Screensavers are stupid anyway
23:10:05 <ehird> ais523: why?
23:10:09 <ais523> don't know
23:10:19 <AnMaster> ais523, I remember seeing an option in gnome for it ages ago.
23:10:25 <AnMaster> must have been 2004 or so
23:10:26 <ais523> yes, they removed it
23:10:29 <ehird> A far better alternative to screensavers is auto-standbying the displays
23:10:29 <AnMaster> ah
23:10:32 <ais523> and there's no screensaver-configure option on my Gnome atm
23:10:36 <ehird> All they serve as is annoying eyecandy
23:10:40 <ais523> ehird: well, my display auto-standbys
23:10:48 <ais523> my screensaver only displays if I lock the screen
23:10:51 <AnMaster> anyway
23:11:00 <ais523> in which case, the eyecandy is helpful due to the circumstances in which I usually lock
23:11:02 <AnMaster> what about powerful non-confusing GUI
23:11:07 <AnMaster> I'm waiting ais523
23:11:19 <ehird> AnMaster: you don't get it
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23:11:26 <AnMaster> exactly, because it doesn't exist
23:11:29 <AnMaster> thus I can't get it
23:11:32 <AnMaster> that was my point.
23:11:34 <ehird> that is not what i meant
23:11:38 <AnMaster> while xorg.conf is not confusing
23:11:44 <AnMaster> it is easy to understand
23:11:47 <ais523> AnMaster: do you know what all the settings in it do?
23:11:54 <ehird> you really are unplugged from reality, AnMaster
23:11:58 <ais523> can you safely experiment with all the possible values?
23:12:02 <AnMaster> ais523, all I use yes. and I know where the docs are.
23:12:10 <ais523> you need docs?
23:12:11 <ehird> Documentation is a flaw
23:12:21 <AnMaster> as for safe experimenting, I know which ones are bad to touch.
23:12:22 <ehird> Documentation is a sign that the interface was so unusable that they had to spend paragraphs creating a UI to the UI
23:12:23 <ais523> documentation is helpful, things that work without documentation are better
23:12:35 <AnMaster> ais523, docs are not confusing at least in this case.
23:12:35 <ehird> Documentation of an interface is grounds for immediate and utter failure
23:12:39 <ais523> is there an xorg.conf equivalent to visudo?
23:12:46 <ais523> ehird: I like documentation anyway
23:12:54 <ais523> personally, my perfect interface does everything I want obviously
23:13:05 <ehird> Documentation for non-UIs is fine
23:13:06 <ais523> but I don't mind if it has non-obvious power tools too which aren't needed but speed things up
23:13:09 <ais523> and those can be documented
23:13:10 <AnMaster> ais523, visudo just opens sudoers in a $EDITOR (set to nano for root) and check syntax when you close it
23:13:10 <ehird> Documentation for UIs is redundancy
23:13:25 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it copies it first
23:13:29 <AnMaster> well true
23:13:34 <AnMaster> like crontab -e
23:13:41 <ehird> http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=itbusiness&type=monitors&subtype=lcd&model_cd=LS24KIEEFV/EDC
23:13:41 <AnMaster> but that was implied
23:13:42 <AnMaster> ...
23:13:45 <ehird> This seems like a good monitor
23:13:50 <ehird> *Contrast Ratio : DC 10000:1 (1000:1)
23:13:53 <ehird> Nice.
23:13:58 <AnMaster> ehird, response time
23:14:02 <ehird> AnMaster: 5ms
23:14:05 <ehird> 94DPI, too
23:14:08 <AnMaster> sounds low
23:14:10 <AnMaster> meh
23:14:20 <ehird> AnMaster: The lowest response I've seen is 3ms
23:14:21 <ehird> what's yours
23:14:23 <AnMaster> also their side take ages to load
23:14:32 <AnMaster> ehird, no clue :)
23:14:38 <AnMaster> Acer AL2017
23:14:42 <AnMaster> it sucks pretty much
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23:14:51 <fizzie> The contrast-numbers and response-time-numbers have the marketing problem, it's all in how you measure it.
23:14:51 <AnMaster> but my old died and I needed a new one fast
23:14:57 <AnMaster> so I took the best I could get same day
23:14:58 <ehird> fizzie: Of course
23:14:59 <AnMaster> ehird, ^
23:15:04 <ehird> But 1000:1 in any conditions is great
23:15:26 <ehird> http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=itbusiness&type=monitors&subtype=lcd&model_cd=LS24EDBLB/EDC
23:15:28 <ehird> This also looks good
23:15:32 <ehird> No response time info though
23:15:39 <ehird> It seems to be for photographers and such
23:15:45 <ehird> So probably slow response time
23:16:04 <Asztal_> 6ms.
23:16:10 <Asztal_> It's in the full spec.
23:16:15 <ehird> Asztal_: ah
23:16:19 <ehird> that's unreasonably high
23:16:19 <ehird> imo.
23:16:34 <AnMaster> hm
23:16:37 <fizzie> I have here this reasonable LG L246WH (24" 1920x1200, I think it's pretty close to 94dpi) and the sideways-up Samsung Syncmaster 910T, which I think is particularly nice. I doubt I'd notice much response-time-related problems since I just keep IRC on this monitor.
23:16:37 <AnMaster> syncmaster
23:16:41 <AnMaster> I had that before
23:16:43 <Asztal_> The other one was 12ms with some "MagicSpeed" supposedly making it 5ms, but I'd be wary.
23:17:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I used to have a samsung syncmaster 171B, it rocked, back when 17" was considered huge
23:17:06 <Asztal_> I have 16ms and 8ms displays, and it doesn't really bother me
23:17:08 <ehird> I'll go for LG
23:17:15 <ehird> AnMaster: I used to have a 14" display @ 1024x768
23:17:17 <ehird> ROCKIN'
23:17:19 <AnMaster> ehird, what about colour matching
23:17:19 <fizzie> I'd be wary of any official numbers; reviews from suitably obsessed people are usually the way to go.
23:17:30 <AnMaster> ehird, the syncmaster was pretty good at that
23:17:36 <AnMaster> good colours I mean
23:17:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Doesn't matter to me :-)
23:17:41 <ehird> Well
23:17:42 <ehird> I want good colours
23:17:45 <ehird> but I'm not obsessed
23:17:47 <ehird> I'm no photographer
23:17:48 <AnMaster> ehird, that's way more important than typography!
23:17:53 <AnMaster> I want an ICC PROFILE!
23:18:15 <ehird> fizzie: lg's site has no 246?
23:18:23 <ehird> AnMaster: Typography is more beautiful than any photo. :)
23:18:26 * ehird *war! war!*
23:18:35 <fizzie> In the CRT days I had a syncmaster 959nf, which was the greatness. Chosen mostly because it had BNC connectors for input and supported sync-on-green for that, so it was easy to hook the sparcstation to it... but it was still great.
23:18:39 <AnMaster> ehird, a photo can say more than 1000 fonts
23:19:00 <ehird> AnMaster: A typographical piece can express more precisely than any photo.
23:19:01 <AnMaster> is that the English form of that idiom
23:19:05 <ehird> yes
23:19:15 <fizzie> ehird: http://uk.lge.com/products/model/detail/widescreen_l246wh.jhtml
23:19:32 <ehird> 2000:1 contrast, ey? Even if that's just bullshitting, that's some balls.
23:19:49 <AnMaster> ehird, ever heard of a shock text? Heard of shock photos. I think the photo clearly wins.
23:19:52 <fizzie> Well, didn't that Samsung say 10000:1. :p
23:19:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Text can be shocking for sure.
23:20:05 <ehird> fizzie: It then clarified, saying 1000:1 :D
23:20:21 <AnMaster> ehird, that is true. But it won't give as strong emotions.
23:20:24 <ehird> fizzie: That thing looks great
23:20:25 <AnMaster> to the reader/viewer
23:20:28 <ehird> I hope you don't mind if I buy it
23:20:36 <fizzie> As long as you don't steal this one.
23:20:43 <ehird> AnMaster: You can't make something as ugly as shock images with typography.
23:20:46 <ehird> That's an advantage.
23:21:08 <AnMaster> ehird, Arial
23:21:10 <AnMaster> yes you can
23:21:24 <ehird> AnMaster: You just proved your own point wrong, then
23:21:26 * AnMaster forces ehird to use Arial instead of Helvetica for everything
23:21:39 <ehird> I saw a tshirt saying "Helvetica" in Arial and another in Comic Sans
23:21:42 <fizzie> One minor point I don't like with this L246WH is that it has just D-SUB+HDMI; most (well, at least many) include the whole D-SUB+DVI+HDMI triplet. I have this other older desktop box I occasionally boot, and now I've had to connect that with the VGA cable since there's only one digital input, and I don't really want to buy an HDMI switch-box just because.
23:21:42 <ehird> They were beautiful
23:21:46 <AnMaster> ehird, wow
23:21:52 <AnMaster> that's crazy
23:22:16 <AnMaster> ehird, Tahoma (sp?)
23:22:28 <ehird> AnMaster: there was another in book antiqua which had a disclaimer saying the makers aren't responsible if you get beaten up for wearing it :-)
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23:22:41 <AnMaster> ehird, link
23:22:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Can't find atm
23:22:49 <AnMaster> meh
23:23:55 <ehird> http://uk.lge.com/products/model/detail/widescreen_w2452t.jhtml This looks nice too, I dunno what that DFC contrast-fucking is though
23:24:48 <ehird> fizzie: any complaints about the l246wh?
23:24:49 <ehird> it looks nice
23:25:30 <fizzie> Just the one I said up there about connectors. Well, and the control buttons aren't the best I've seen, but it's not really very often I touch 'em.
23:25:51 <ehird> fizzie: oh, no DVI?
23:25:56 <ehird> Dunno if the box I'm getting has hdmi
23:26:05 <fizzie> Well, it comes with a DVI-HDMI cable, I think.
23:26:22 <fizzie> At least I don't recall getting one separately.
23:26:29 <ehird> http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/20010.html Nothing hdmi-y here.
23:27:09 <ehird> hm
23:27:12 <ehird> nothing about dvi either
23:27:36 <ehird> "However, the audio and remote-control features of HDMI will not be available"
23:27:39 <ehird> oH nOeS!!!
23:27:53 <ehird> fizzie: What are unnice about the buttonies?
23:28:03 <AnMaster> according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vector_Video_Standards2.svg my monitor is SXGA+
23:28:06 <AnMaster> heh
23:28:26 <ehird> WSXGA+ here
23:28:35 <ehird> and will be WUXGA
23:28:38 <fizzie> They are on the underside of the monitor border, it just feels a bit unnatural. Very non-intrusive too, of course.
23:29:36 <AnMaster> ehird, where are the buttons on mac monitors?
23:29:42 <AnMaster> such as that imac
23:29:42 <fizzie> I pretty much picked this one because the previous monitor was also a LG (L2000C, a 20" 1600x1200 4:3 one). And I actually liked the Samsung 20" I *ordered* (rather similar specs, except it had composite/s-video inputs too) but the first two had dead pixels, and by the time the store had managed to process the return of the second one (the whole process took *months*) Samsung had stopped manufacturing that model, so I just switched to a close equivalent.
23:29:49 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out).
23:30:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Apple logo, go to the left, flip over to the back
23:30:14 <ehird> Your power button's there
23:30:17 <ehird> There are no other buttons
23:30:39 <AnMaster> ehird, heh
23:30:48 <AnMaster> ehird, power button on the back-side?
23:30:56 <ehird> Right. How often do you press it? :P
23:31:14 <AnMaster> ehird, which imac model is this? screen on ball or?
23:31:36 <AnMaster> wait no, that's older
23:31:42 <ehird> This one:
23:31:51 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/IMac_transparency.png
23:31:52 <fizzie> If your display card will be that GV-R485MC-1GH ("Gigabyte Radeon HD 4850 1GB") it seems to be a 2*DVI card, but also include one DVI-to-HDMI adapter.
23:31:58 <ais523> why do macs need a separate on button?
23:32:01 <ehird> http://www.mccullagh.org/db9/1ds-5/intel-imac-at-macworld.jpg
23:32:06 <ais523> they should ship from the factory on, and never turn off, just hibernate
23:32:08 <ehird> http://www.dean.clas.uconn.edu/csg/images/guidelines/intel_imac.jpg
23:32:09 <AnMaster> ehird, is the height adjustable
23:32:20 <ehird> AnMaster: No, but you can tilt the display
23:32:27 <AnMaster> I need some books below my current monitor to get it high enough
23:32:27 <ehird> ais523: I would have no problem with that
23:32:30 <AnMaster> and that really sucks
23:32:31 <ehird> Well
23:32:33 <AnMaster> really really sucks
23:32:39 <ehird> a power button is needed in emergency cases
23:32:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Heh I'm getting a height-adjustable desk just to get the monitor low enough
23:33:06 <AnMaster> ehird, well samsung had good foot, high and higher
23:33:13 <AnMaster> a good foot*
23:33:18 <ehird> If you ever see me in person you probably won't notice I'm there until you look down
23:33:25 <ais523> how tall are you?
23:33:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well you will have to look up quite a bit
23:33:34 <ehird> ais523: didn't we go over this yesterday
23:33:34 * Sgeo_ is short
23:33:38 <ehird> lemme look
23:33:42 <AnMaster> ais523, 187 or 188 cm, forgot which
23:34:11 <AnMaster> tallest in family too, about 3 cm taller than dad and 5 cm taller than mom
23:34:15 <AnMaster> :)
23:34:20 <ehird> he's talking about me... isn;'t he
23:34:29 <fizzie> I seem to recall that my performa 52xx powermac (a *really* messed up piece of hardware -- #1 in the top-12 worst macs list -- just see the short intro at http://lowendmac.com/roadapples/x200.shtml or something) still had a power button in the ADB keyboard.
23:34:31 <AnMaster> ehird, he didn't direct the question at any nick
23:34:35 <AnMaster> so I don't know
23:34:56 <ehird> 16:20:07 <ehird> ← I am 146cm = 4 feet 9 inches. And 32kg.
23:35:00 <ehird> ais523: there you go
23:35:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, no picture there
23:35:15 <AnMaster> it seems
23:35:27 <ais523> ehird: wow, that is short
23:35:30 <AnMaster> ehird, what's up with that random garbage
23:35:33 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://lowendmac.com/ppc/performa-5200.html has a tiny picture.
23:35:36 <ais523> whereas AnMaster's about 8 feet tall, from what I hear
23:35:39 <ehird> AnMaster: clog's mangling of ←
23:35:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't know. I'm using metric.
23:35:54 <ehird> ais523: 8 feet? Err... isn't that like, tallest man in the world scale?
23:36:01 <ehird> 188 centimeters = 6.167979 feet
23:36:02 <AnMaster> ais523, and around 82 or 83 kg iirc
23:36:03 <ehird> Says google
23:36:09 <ais523> ehird: almost certainly above tallest man in the world scale
23:36:09 <ehird> But yes, wow, I am short.
23:36:18 <ehird> oh it was a joke
23:36:18 <ehird> :P
23:36:21 <ais523> AnMaster: 1 metre = 39 inches, you can work it out from there
23:36:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, my dad had a 5600 iirc, looked almost the same
23:36:50 <ehird> Like I said, first words of two longtime internetfriends I met in August: "You're shorter than I expected."
23:37:15 <lament> "Oh yeah? Well you're stupider than I expected!"
23:37:22 <AnMaster> fizzie I don't remember exact model
23:37:24 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't remember the exact model, I don't think it was 5200 but some 52?0 instead. I don't have it any more, sold it to someone to save space. :p
23:37:25 <ehird> lament: osnap
23:37:32 <ehird> No I was too busy being shy for the first 15 minutes :P
23:38:11 <AnMaster> you
23:38:12 <AnMaster> meet
23:38:16 <AnMaster> internet friends
23:38:17 <AnMaster> in real life
23:38:22 <AnMaster> that's fucked up
23:38:33 <ehird> Seeing friends IRL.
23:38:36 <ehird> Gosh, how fucked up.
23:38:39 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah
23:38:42 <AnMaster> but internet ones
23:38:47 <AnMaster> how do you dare do it
23:38:53 <ehird> It's well known that 90% of people on the internet are pedophiles.
23:39:01 <ehird> The other 10% are ephebophiles.
23:39:36 <ais523> I prefer the standard backronym for the alt hierarchy on usenet
23:39:45 <ais523> it's apparently full of anarchists, lunatics, and terrorists
23:39:51 <ehird> :-D
23:39:56 <ais523> I think I classify myself as a lunatic, in that classification
23:40:10 <ais523> but I think that classification generalises to the whole internet
23:40:22 <ehird> AnMaster: so, care to clarify?
23:40:31 <AnMaster> what?
23:40:44 * AnMaster is listening to radio
23:41:04 <AnMaster> ah
23:41:12 <AnMaster> I'd go for same category as ais523
23:41:25 <ehird> i meant the previous stuff
23:41:35 <AnMaster> which
23:41:48 <ehird> 23:38 AnMaster: that's fucked up
23:42:13 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, you don't know how the person would be IRL
23:42:25 <ehird> I've known them very well since 2006.
23:42:35 <AnMaster> knowing you are so small I wouldn't be scared meeting you IRL but even so...
23:43:28 <ehird> If they're secretly murder-rapists, they did a very successful job of creating a fake online identity stretching back years and gaining so many connections and meeting with others I knew. I'm flattered they'd go to so much effort to kill me.
23:44:20 <AnMaster> well indeed, you aren't important enough
23:44:46 <ehird> Clearly our meeting was just furthering their plan to abduct and murder the helpless child known as Barack Obama.
23:45:50 <Sgeo_> I've met up with people I barely knew in RL.. although I had a major crush on her 7 years ago
23:46:00 <AnMaster> ehird, that's a bit too late now
23:46:33 <lament> yay online crush
23:46:36 <Asztal_> I've met up with internet friends. Except one of them did actually like young girls. And got jailed for it. :|
23:46:43 <AnMaster> ehird, no it's because you are wrong. They are out to get Obama's grand child
23:46:46 <ehird> Asztal_++ would read again
23:46:50 <AnMaster> (or whatever you call it)
23:46:55 <AnMaster> ehird, as of yet unborn
23:47:08 <ehird> AnMaster: They will convince it to meet them while it's still in the womb.
23:47:12 <ehird> Then abduct and kill it.
23:47:15 <ehird> Without it leaving the womb.
23:47:21 <ehird> They are *incredibly* crafty.
23:47:25 <AnMaster> indeed
23:48:28 <oklopol> <ais523> they should ship from the factory on, and never turn off, just hibernate <<< or be on when plugged in
23:48:46 <ais523> well, in practice you need a way to turn it on if the battery runs out
23:48:46 <fizzie> Meeting you people could be a horrible disappointment, in that it might actually turn out that you are all just sort-of regularly human and so on. Although I guess that has a rather low probability in at least oklopol's case.
23:48:51 <ais523> in theory, just give it a perfect battery
23:49:16 <ehird> fizzie: these people turned out to be exactly the same as online :-P
23:49:22 <AnMaster> oklopol, which "they"
23:49:34 <ehird> I did not anticipate chipping a tooth and losing my ticket, though.
23:49:54 <ehird> (I walked into the glass covering a museum display without realising it was there. *Bam*)
23:51:02 * ais523 reads up on the virus asie caught
23:51:08 <AnMaster> ais523, heh
23:51:11 <ais523> it's ridiculous, it's an actual virus rather than a worm
23:51:16 <ais523> and it infects all sorts of file formats
23:51:19 <ais523> including ASP and HTML
23:51:21 <AnMaster> ais523, how does it spread
23:51:31 <ais523> AnMaster: from file to file, the same way other viruses do
23:51:33 <ehird> AnMaster: it doesn't
23:51:36 <AnMaster> meh
23:51:39 <ais523> if a file containing it is copied and run, then the copy spreads
23:51:51 <ais523> it's mostly spreading through illegal executables
23:51:51 <ehird> i should write a virus that installs ubuntu and makes it look vaguely like windows
23:51:53 <AnMaster> security model fail
23:51:57 <ehird> and renames apps to their windows equivalents
23:51:58 <fizzie> Ooh, a retrovirus! *punnity*
23:52:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, :D
23:52:16 <ais523> ehird: don't, it would still be illegal
23:52:34 <ais523> besides, it would lead to even more GPL FUD
23:52:42 <ehird> ais523: I would just advertise it as computer speederupperer and put it all in the small print that nobody reads
23:52:55 <Sgeo_> And what happens when users discover that their Windows-only programs that don't work in WINE and have no Linux equivelent are missing?
23:52:59 <ais523> even so, it's debatable whether EULAs are enforcable
23:53:07 <oklopol> 8 feet tall is not tallest man in the world scale
23:53:10 <ehird> Sgeo_: That's their problem :P
23:53:12 <oklopol> tallest man was 279 iirc
23:53:15 <ais523> Sgeo_: people with those sort of programs normally don't catch viruses
23:53:17 <ehird> oklopol: what, feet?
23:53:20 <oklopol> tallest soldier finnish 259 iirc
23:53:22 <oklopol> cm
23:53:26 <lament> 279 feet
23:53:31 <ehird> no feet
23:53:34 <ehird> i'm sure it's fet
23:53:35 <ehird> *feet
23:53:52 <fizzie> oklopol: Is this about: "Väinö Myllyrinne – Tallest Finn, standing 8'1" (247 cm). Myllyrinne was born in 1909 and died April 13, 1963." Or something else?
23:53:53 <ehird> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Wadlow
23:53:55 <ehird> 8 feet
23:53:57 <ehird> tallest person evar
23:53:57 <oklopol> or 251...
23:54:00 <oklopol> oh read
23:54:06 <Sgeo_> ais523, so using Active Worlds or Allegiance is a good indication of computer savviness?
23:54:13 <oklopol> fizzie: yes, and i see i misrememberized the number
23:54:19 <ais523> the only justification anyone's thought up for Virut is that it's designed to make Windows look bad to force up Mac and Linux sales
23:54:30 <ais523> Sgeo_: I've never heard of them
23:54:34 <ehird> linux sales?
23:54:37 <ais523> do they work under Cedega or Crossover?
23:54:41 <Sgeo_> activeworlds.com freeallegiance.org
23:54:42 <oklopol> which is quite sad considering it's only like 10 years since i remembered pretty much the whole guinness world records 1993 book
23:54:46 <ais523> ehird: yep, maybe they're NOVELL SABOTEURS
23:54:53 <Sgeo_> ais523, I'd bet that Alleg doesn't work under Cedega, no clue about AW
23:55:05 <ehird> Sgeo_: vm foo
23:55:06 <oklopol> of course i didn't actually know how to memorize back then, i just read it a lot.
23:55:28 <Sgeo_> ehird, you'd include a copy of MS Windows in a Windows destroying virus?
23:55:37 <ehird> no
23:55:39 <ehird> i was talking about you
23:55:43 <ais523> Sgeo_: yes, so Microsoft end up suing all their customers for pirating windows
23:55:45 <oklopol> have to check the 279 too
23:55:51 <ais523> that would be hilarious
23:55:59 <ehird> :D
23:56:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:56:36 <oklopol> yeah that was wrong too
23:56:38 <oklopol> :|
23:56:41 <ehird> "Security researcher Jack Louis, who had discovered several serious security flaws in TCP software was killed in a fire on the ides of March, dealing a blow to efforts to repair the problem."
23:56:42 <ehird> -Slashdot
23:56:53 <ehird> OR WAS IT A CONSPIRACY ? ??
23:56:55 <oklopol> grr
23:57:03 <ais523> and most of the people on the article were just laughing at it, rather than mourning that someone died
23:57:28 <ais523> I went and moderated up the people who were telling people not to laugh at it
23:57:40 <ais523> because I was a Slashdot moderator a few minutes ago, although I'm not any more
23:57:41 <ehird> Some people want their death to be greeted with laughter
23:57:50 <ais523> Slashdot makes people moderators at random
23:57:52 <ais523> and it doesn't last very long
23:57:59 <oklopol> :D
23:58:12 <Sgeo_> ehird, the Python guy, right?
23:58:23 <ais523> oklopol: what's the :D at?
23:58:24 <ehird> guido van rossum? :D
23:58:32 <oklopol> ais523: sd
23:58:50 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsHk9WC7fnQ (NSFW language)
23:59:02 <ais523> oklopol: well, it doesn't work awfully, although it tends to lead to groupthink
23:59:29 <oklopol> yeah makes sense it would
23:59:33 <oklopol> *-
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