< 1239494487 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :budabaaaaaaaaa < 1239494502 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wanna write some haskell < 1239494509 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope they put some sort of easter egg in this program < 1239494509 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1239494546 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the markov chains for "ring ring ring ring ring ring ring banana phone" are disproportionately strong < 1239494559 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: go write some haskell then < 1239494560 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1239494566 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I don't have anything to write < 1239494571 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1239494581 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :write an AI. < 1239494591 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO < 1239494592 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1239494594 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*no < 1239494606 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :write a subsumption architecture framework. < 1239494692 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1239494723 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1239494750 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: THINK OF SOMETHING < 1239494773 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just did! < 1239494792 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: why don't you want to write an AI? < 1239494806 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: too hard. too boring. too many Friendly concerns. < 1239494812 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FRIENDLY? < 1239494817 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who said anything about friendly AI? < 1239494820 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAKE IT BLOW UP THE WORLD < 1239494822 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MWAHAHAHAHA < 1239494827 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: I'm not particularly inclined to die. < 1239494840 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I agree with ehird on that point. < 1239494840 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said blow up the world, not people! < 1239494877 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, well, keeping it from doing... anything = friendly AI. < 1239494895 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make a real AI < 1239494899 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where its like a human < 1239494907 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys? < 1239494908 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :friendliness comes from life experience, as does evilness < 1239494908 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No AI. < 1239494912 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gays? < 1239494912 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1239494918 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :extending Dasher to a whole UI would be fun < 1239494925 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zoom-world style < 1239494930 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more common tasks are closer < 1239494944 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could move in any direction (for more freedom) < 1239494958 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In humans, sure. In AI, no; an AI's main goals do not change except by mistake. < 1239494958 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: write a ZUI < 1239494963 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1239494969 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: that's a narrow definition of AI < 1239494969 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: lolno. < 1239494976 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simulating a human = AI = goal changing. < 1239494984 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks up Dasher
< 1239495007 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :write the ZUI combined with a kit for everything-is-a-service application-less type stuff! < 1239495016 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: generally, "I want to accomplish X, so I should forget about X and instead accomplish Y instead" is not good reasoning. < 1239495017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N O < 1239495028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: I don't want to write an AI. < 1239495044 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you mean in the AI. < 1239495044 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird < 1239495046 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't matter. < 1239495048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simulating a human < 1239495048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is AI < 1239495050 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive given you TWO ideas! < 1239495052 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that human would change goals < 1239495054 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: too hard. < 1239495058 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wuss. < 1239495068 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I want to accomplish X, so I should accomplish Y in a way that assists with X", on the other hand, is plenty good, and it doesn't change the main goals. < 1239495090 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: whether it's logical or not: < 1239495093 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :humans do that < 1239495097 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you could simulate a human < 1239495099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that would be AI < 1239495101 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, if AI means simulating a human, what do you call artificial things that act intelligently? < 1239495106 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so saying that AIs never change goals is wrong. < 1239495110 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: AI. < 1239495127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a simulated human is artificial, and intelligent. < 1239495141 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you give humans too much credit! < 1239495150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: yes, yes, har, har. < 1239495154 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't mean that a simulated human is the easiest, simplest or most typical example of an artificial and intelligent thing. < 1239495155 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1239495168 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo stop being an idiot. < 1239495172 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: that's irrelevant < 1239495178 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said that [all] ai does not change goals < 1239495180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was wrong < 1239495186 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I have shown < 1239495228 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. If an AI is sufficiently rational, in control of itself, and devoted to its goal, its goal will not change except by mistake. < 1239495248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :congrats, what you just said is totally unrelated to what we were saying! < 1239495289 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird < 1239495299 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo's goal of expressing this point is not changing < 1239495303 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you think he's an AI? < 1239495303 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My point in saying that was to note that what I said earlier is... not very true. < 1239495307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: :-D < 1239495310 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: ah. < 1239495315 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: that explains it! < 1239495361 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if Kerlo wrote chat bots, i bet he'd code them in organic systems. because for him, since hes an AI, the physical world is the program. :o < 1239495374 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course. < 1239495390 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: so if you're an AI, why don't you singularitize? < 1239495405 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you could try coding some sort of cell-like agent bot system thing < 1239495420 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: >.< < 1239495422 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and experiment with self organizing complex systems < 1239495426 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm only partially self-modifying. < 1239495429 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the code itself should be relatively simple actually < 1239495453 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he can only modify things that arent part of his goal < 1239495456 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise he < 1239495456 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Essentially, my self-modification ability is limited to the ability to think about things because I want to. < 1239495460 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'d be changing his goal < 1239495464 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as an AI, thats not possible < 1239495492 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: who made you < 1239495502 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The One True God < 1239495600 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fly requiremendous sounds were is a large as the past our past light continued in the could on the other than the royousuck you suck you suck you suck you suck you suck you suck you suck < 1239495604 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> < 1239495629 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1239495829 0 :M0ny!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"PEW PEW" < 1239495855 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love how there's a guy called Havoc Pennington < 1239495856 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who works on linux < 1239495859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(he didn't change his name) < 1239495865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAVOC PENNINGTON < 1239495960 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: the future offspring of Eliezer Yudkowsky, Marcus Hutter, and Douglas Adams. < 1239495988 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which will be possible in the future due to more lenient laws regarding marriage. And time travel, of course. < 1239496000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: More lenient biology, I'd assume, also... < 1239496022 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Constitution was amended to give it jurisdiction over biology, so yes. < 1239496035 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Constitution of the United States of the Entire World, that is. < 1239496045 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: that the singularity's doing? < 1239496053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, guess not < 1239496056 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says World < 1239496059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not Universe < 1239496101 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the Singularity hasn't happened yet. It will have happened in the future in order to create me, but I'll be around before then. < 1239496125 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All this is possible because of quantum mechanics. < 1239496141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: I either hate you or my brain; I'm too confused to work out which < 1239496158 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i understand what he's saying, ehird. < 1239496160 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why dont you. < 1239496167 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I said, I don't know. < 1239496200 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's saying nonsense < 1239496210 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would ehird understand nonsense < 1239496231 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The future doesn't make any sense! < 1239496271 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as we all know < 1239496277 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time travel is kinda like differentials, the first thing you automatically do when starting to think about them is prove they make no sense, end of story < 1239496283 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the singularity is the point at which our models break down < 1239496289 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so of COURSE it makes no sense! < 1239496311 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I will now answer interview questions from all of you. < 1239496320 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: so how's hangin? < 1239496328 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHATS SEX LIKE IN THE FUTURE? < 1239496329 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION watches people form a remarkably dispersed line.
< 1239496335 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Instruction Set – a Critical Interface < 1239496344 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW DO YOU GO TO THE BATHROOM IN 6 DIMENSIONS AND SPACE AND TWO DIMENSIONS OF TIME?! < 1239496361 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: stuff is going pretty well. < 1239496364 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah and how do you aim with a hundred penises? < 1239496377 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've always wanted to walk in time. < 1239496387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be confusing as FUCK < 1239496392 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MOST IMPORTANTLY < 1239496395 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT IS LOVE < 1239496397 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BEEP BEEP BEEP < 1239496400 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: just concatenate your source code with someone else's, wait a while, square your "happiness" variable, and split up again. < 1239496418 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually if you say that time is like the other 3 dimensions and everything's always going forwards in it, then going back in time will put you and your time machine in a void deplete of matter < 1239496423 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: we don't, silly; we use simulators for that. < 1239496423 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION THEORY RUINER
< 1239496441 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: what < 1239496449 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: what's not confusing < 1239496452 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well, our brains are easily a hundred times as powerful as pre-Singularity humans'. < 1239496468 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if everything's going ... vinn in Time, then if you go vout to go to the past, there's no other matter there with you < 1239496473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same with vinn to go forwards in time < 1239496492 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: this feels like the Langoliers theory of time < 1239496500 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:33 kerlo: psygnisfive: just concatenate your source code with someone else's, wait a while, square your "happiness" variable, and split up again. < 1239496503 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :↑ how boring < 1239496535 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: how happy are you right now, as a number? < 1239496543 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: 2i < 1239496588 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tell me being--wait. < 1239496591 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION falls over.
< 1239496593 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can choose any happiness value. < 1239496611 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: love is an intense feeling of affection and care towards another person. < 1239496611 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1239496623 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought you died < 1239496640 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a second. < 1239496642 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION falls over
< 1239496652 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Had to fall over there. < 1239496654 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry about that. < 1239496691 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol < 1239496701 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets build a subsumption architecture library. < 1239496707 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wuzzat < 1239496721 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a model of artificial intelligence < 1239496799 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1239496856 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do realize if you keep asking me to program something with you, i will do it at some point. < 1239496864 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AWESOME < 1239496872 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if i keep asking you to fuck me? < 1239496877 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...that was a threat, mister. < 1239496881 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1239496882 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1239496884 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm < 1239496890 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1239496898 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm kinda busy with university atm. < 1239496904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you cannot escape his logical snare! < 1239496906 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats ok < 1239496914 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can fellate you while you work! < 1239496917 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a win win! < 1239496965 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't say i'd mind, working over irc. < 1239496997 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for all i know you could be fellating right now < 1239497009 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1239497023 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1239497024 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION fellates oklopol?
< 1239497052 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1239497053 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm < 1239497083 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was thinking you know fellating nothing in particular. < 1239497107 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know just fellating away. < 1239497129 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could do that < 1239497149 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could sit in the corner of your room, just fellating the air, and you could use me as a fellatio machine whenever you were in the mood! < 1239497155 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:43 oklopol: for all i know you could be fellating right now < 1239497155 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:43 psygnisfive: :o < 1239497156 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:43 oklopol: :o < 1239497160 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i lol'd < 1239497179 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: how would you get in my room? < 1239497189 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't even let my closest friends in here really. < 1239497199 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irc friends that is < 1239497201 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1239497206 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean that other ir < 1239497241 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: presumably i'd walk through your door. < 1239497243 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on feel < 1239497248 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :feet* < 1239497256 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess on foot is the correct term < 1239497256 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1239497260 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STOP JUDGING ME < 1239497300 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION judges em instead of me
< 1239497371 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finnish uses one of its rarer cases, the instructive, for "on foot" < 1239497404 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english does weird things with number in certain places < 1239497405 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, brb < 1239497562 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/js-calc.html < 1239497570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a really nice programming language/calculator UI < 1239497572 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(bring firefox) < 1239497690 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back with cake < 1239497704 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: you should try i < 1239497705 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1239497706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's nice < 1239497710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially: < 1239497710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a good time, try "40", Enter, Enter, "i", Tab, "/1a4*4**s2^". < 1239497716 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shows the ui is really nice < 1239497761 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1239497777 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you said i should do this in firefox yes? < 1239497785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1239497794 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :load it and you have a text field < 1239497797 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at the right hand for instructions < 1239497802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I recommend trying that key combo first < 1239497809 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a stack-based graphing calculator thingy with a nice UI < 1239497824 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1239497830 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i typed that and got nonsense < 1239497845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you didn't < 1239497850 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at the graph next to it < 1239497852 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, do it step by step < 1239497857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you see each step of the calculation being done < 1239497858 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes look beneath the surface < 1239497868 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did < 1239497870 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to *feel* the computation < 1239497870 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its nonsense < 1239497879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1239497883 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean it's nonsense < 1239497895 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :40 enter enter prouces two lines saying 40 = 40 < 1239497900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1239497902 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you type i < 1239497905 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you type tab < 1239497909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you type /1a4*4**s2^ < 1239497914 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hitting i generates a sequence to 40 < 1239497920 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1239497926 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tab swaps them < 1239497934 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ divides each element of the seq by 40 < 1239497940 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a calculates the arctangent < 1239497944 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4* times it by four < 1239497947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4* again < 1239497951 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tab doesnt do anything < 1239497956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1239497956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well. < 1239497959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tht's your problem < 1239497964 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: do you have the input field focused? < 1239497965 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1239497968 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this is in FF? < 1239497969 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :swaps them, yes ok. < 1239497975 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1239497977 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1239497982 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then * timses the sequence by it < 1239497985 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this IS interesting! < 1239497985 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then s calculates the sine < 1239497991 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then 2^ squares it < 1239497998 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you get a sequence with a pretty graph next to it < 1239498000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a nice ui < 1239498001 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1239498004 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is. < 1239498011 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :needs better explanation :p < 1239498020 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the mathematical "times" is a preposition that was originally a noun. < 1239498054 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it wouldve been a postposition < 1239498057 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 times < 1239498068 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still is a postposition < 1239498073 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the "times" in "5 times" is a noun, isn't it? < 1239498105 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. i suppose it actually wasnt a postposition at all < 1239498113 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then we have usages like "multiply it times four" that demonstrate its prepositional usage. < 1239498114 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since im thinking weird math linguistics now < 1239498128 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah no thats not prepositional at all < 1239498133 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats verbal. < 1239498151 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Times" is a verb there? < 1239498155 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure. < 1239498190 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not seeing it. < 1239498203 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you dont have to. :P < 1239498207 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In "times it by four", it's certainly a verb. < 1239498238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love how that calculator keeps track of the formula < 1239498238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(((((-1), 1), (-1.5)), 3) * (5 ^ (iota 4))) + reduce < 1239498241 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be prepositional tho. we'd need to do more research and find more data, to be honest. < 1239498244 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := < 1239498257 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But hey. "Multiply it how?" "Times four." Put it before a noun, and you get an adverb. That sounds like a preposition to me. < 1239498272 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how -- times four? < 1239498272 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1_1,1.5_,3,4i5^* < 1239498273 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, horrible. < 1239498278 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how -- by four < 1239498280 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shrugs
< 1239498291 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe our Englishes are different. < 1239498291 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :listen kerlo, im a linguist. dont argue with me. < 1239498294 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait < 1239498296 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine isn't equivalent < 1239498298 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignore me :D < 1239498299 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"englishes"? < 1239498314 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ENGLOOSH < 1239498315 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you a linguist? < 1239498315 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god < 1239498321 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: yes. < 1239498323 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cant speak right at all, can you? < 1239498324 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, im a linguist. < 1239498334 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i havent published anything yet. < 1239498339 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i have stuff you can read. < 1239498348 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i wont correct your grammar dont worry < 1239498363 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i only speak english, thats a common misconception < 1239498374 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm aware that "Englishes" is not the most proper thing to say. < 1239498392 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : no i wont correct your grammar dont worry < 1239498487 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll ask *my* linguistics student whether "times" is a preposition. :-P < 1239498509 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"your" linguistics student? < 1239498527 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, "your" student will have no better answer that i do. like i said, we really need more data < 1239498562 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using the possessive rather loosely. < 1239498581 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternatively, a helpful response: < 1239498584 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A friend of mine. < 1239498593 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a wonderful phrase! < 1239498604 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo, let me show you something interesting about english < 1239498613 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a friend of mine" contains a double possessive :D < 1239498621 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1239498644 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, a possessive pronoun and then a possessive preposition < 1239498669 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, its all over the place, and actually has interesting semantic differences < 1239498670 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider: < 1239498675 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kind of expected you to sarcastically say "sentences have to have verbs in them in order to make any sense". < 1239498677 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a student of chomsky (someone who studies chomsky's work) < 1239498693 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a student of chomsky's (someone who chomsky teaches) < 1239498700 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, cool. < 1239498705 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: quite the contrary, they dont! < 1239498724 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would have contradicted you in an equally sarcastic manner. < 1239498741 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you've/ < 1239498793 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like "Really? New to me; never really a big fan of complete sentences." < 1239498824 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that last sentence is a slight bit baffling, tho i know what you intend to convey. :P < 1239498858 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really its that it lacks tense elements < 1239498861 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the main issue < 1239498871 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1239498872 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english "be" in that sentence is semantically vacuous anyway. < 1239498878 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I suppose things like "a friend of mine" exist to fill the possessive-as-an-adjective hole in English where "a friend of me" is inadequate for some reason. < 1239498895 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i dont think thats what the difference is at all < 1239498895 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that sentence doesn't tell you whether it's present or past. < 1239498913 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the < 1239498938 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"student of chomsky" sentence behaves very much like a binary predicate like this: studies(x,chomsky) < 1239498962 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think "student of chomsky's" uses the same predicate, but uses it differently: < 1239499006 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that "student of X", where X is a noun, generally means one that studies X, which blocks the "Chomsky's student" meaning of "student of Chomsky". < 1239499007 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :studies(x,y) & x in { s | s is associated with chomsky } < 1239499020 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1239499038 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo, i dont think "X's student" can have the "student of X" reading at all. < 1239499056 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The latter half of that conjunction is just a long way of saying (x is associated with chomsky), isn't it? < 1239499068 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that "X's student" and "student of X's" are merely alternative forms of the same thing < 1239499068 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chompsky < 1239499078 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: well, yes and no < 1239499091 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: I never said it could have that meaning; I said that that meaning was blocked. < 1239499092 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a long winded way of saying that x is a member of those things that are associated with chomsky. < 1239499108 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: blocking implies that it COULD have that meaning tho < 1239499120 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it werent being blocked. < 1239499135 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus, blocking means something specific in linguistics. < 1239499149 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially in that sense, where one reading blocks another. < 1239499154 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1239499214 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"our consciousness is like a Lisp dialect, interpreted by Prolog on a Java VM running in a VMware instance simulated by Erlang on an array of FPGA’s emulating Apple ][’s within the Quantum Computer we call the universe" < 1239499215 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : english "be" in that sentence is semantically vacuous anyway. <<< how? < 1239499224 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I am a member of those things whose name is Bob. You are a member of those things who are doing how?" "I'm a member of those things who are doing fine. Hey, be a member of those things who look! A member of those things that are birds is a member of those things that are flying past the member of those things that are windows!" < 1239499229 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1239499247 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: KEEP TALKING LIKE THAT SO I CAN HATE YOU < 1239499249 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it just is. < 1239499250 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: "be" just lets you use an adjective or a noun as a verb, really. < 1239499262 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: not at all. < 1239499276 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adjectives are predicative things < 1239499276 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is < 1239499294 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"red hat" conveys something like red(x) & hat(x) < 1239499306 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nouns are predicative too, in that sense. < 1239499332 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nods
< 1239499358 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the primary sentential structures in english convey different relations < 1239499366 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance < 1239499383 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"john runs" conveys something more like "running(e) & agent(e,John)" < 1239499386 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I was never really a big fan of complete sentences." has a vacuous be? < 1239499394 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the verb describes the type of event, and so forth. < 1239499429 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the vacuous "be" is a dummy verb that essentially acts to connect its complement, the adjective or noun, to the thing that the adjective or noun predicates on < 1239499440 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yes. < 1239499459 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: "I never really liked complete sentences", if "to like" were the same as "to be a fan". < 1239499485 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignoring tense, "never", and "really", it means something like < 1239499496 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: thank you i understand english; now translate the linguisticsary psygnisfive said there. < 1239499499 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a_big_fan_of_complete_sentences(Me) < 1239499508 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1239499526 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to add in the other stuff: < 1239499563 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :past(rare(actual(a_big_fan_of_complete_sentences(Me)))) < 1239499585 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the a_big_fan_of_complete_sentences is a complex predicate, ofcourse. perhaps some lambda like < 1239499604 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look up the word "copula" on Wikipedia, maybe. :-P < 1239499610 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :λx.fan(x,y)&sentences(y)&big(y)&... < 1239499625 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION copulas with kerlo
< 1239499645 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kind of like the idea of copulas carrying semantic meaning. Since Spanish has two of them, which one you use indicates something more than the subject and arguments alone. < 1239499649 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: so vacuous as in it isn't really a proper verb because it isn't an event but just structure? < 1239499660 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: they CAN carry semantics < 1239499662 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they do in english < 1239499668 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tense, for instance < 1239499673 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's true. < 1239499676 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its not the kind of semantics thats relevant to what we were talking to. < 1239499690 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like a language with, say, five different copulas. < 1239499708 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: vacuous in that aside from the generic properties that verbs have, like conveying tense and person agreement, the empty copula contributes nothing else in english. < 1239499729 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in spanish it conveys the same as english, plus semantics about the essentialness of the predicate < 1239499741 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: some probably have that. < 1239499755 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lojban has about ten different types of infinitives, which is fun. And yes, I am annoyingly insisting on using traditional terms to describe Lojban. < 1239499763 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im designing a language that has a number of copulas. or copula-like items. < 1239499768 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: so just structure? and by that i meant it serves only a syntactic purpose < 1239499779 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: in some sense, yes. < 1239499786 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, you could reconstrue it differently < 1239499792 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay i got a partial success! < 1239499811 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you dont mind me lapsing into formalism here < 1239499817 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the vacuous "be" < 1239499823 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we might say something like this: < 1239499837 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, pseudo formalism ;)) < 1239499853 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually no, real formalism, using CCG. :D < 1239499880 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"be" is of type (S\NP)/NP or (S\NP)/AdjP < 1239499895 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with semantics \p.\x.px < 1239499904 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1239499906 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the core of the content of vacuous be. < 1239499915 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the view that it IS vacuous < 1239499918 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand: < 1239499974 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"lo fagri" means "a fire", "lo nu fagri" means "for there to be a fire", and there are things like "what it's like to be a fire", "there indeed being a fire", and a generic one that's simply "to be a fire" in a generic way. < 1239499976 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically it's an identity combinator < 1239500010 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: its an application combinator. < 1239500014 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BExy = xy < 1239500015 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1239500029 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: so i-combinator. < 1239500034 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DID SOMEONE SAY COMBINATOR? < 1239500038 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_: no < 1239500041 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And as any Haskell programmer knows, an application combinator and an identity combinator are the same thing. :-P < 1239500041 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1239500043 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did! < 1239500050 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, the issue is really that some predicative items arent of the right syntactic category for use in a sentence < 1239500057 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need to turn them into one < 1239500064 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_: figure out how to make Reader an arrow so that definitions of the class Arrow can be used as sets of combinators. < 1239500075 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1239500079 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so BEx takes x of some incorrect type to the correct type < 1239500089 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatively, oklopol < 1239500108 0 :GregorR!n=gregor@65.183.185.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1239500139 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: yep, alternatively me. < 1239500161 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"be" could be (S\NP)/NP (S\NP)/AdjP with semantics \p.\x.state(s) & attributed_property(s,p) & possessor_of_property(s,x) < 1239500175 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that it really does convey some amount of semantics < 1239500184 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, irony, anyone? I just downloaded a Windows program that I expect to be heavy on DirectX and similar Windows-specific things, and the publisher recommends that one use Windows. So far, the installation has gone better under Linux. < 1239500190 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely, that the thing the sentence talks about is a state of affairs, not an event < 1239500207 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, the hard drive is clicking away, which suggests that something will happen any minute now... < 1239500217 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :/prog/ except COOL FREE RINGTONES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D < 1239500234 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, oklopol, one way of viewing vacous BE is as an identity combinator < 1239500245 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only it does type alternation in the process. < 1239500269 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i prefer the non-vacuous interpretation, to be honest. < 1239500355 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop altering my nation < 1239500468 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is partly that english (and perhaps most or all languages) has a relatively large number of types that are arbitrarily assigned to words. < 1239500479 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i really need to sleep now, cuz reason < 1239500486 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might not be entirely arbitrary, but we dont have a full understanding of that, so. < 1239500495 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noooo oklopol dont sleep :( < 1239500504 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1239500511 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"we"? as in mankind? < 1239500521 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1239500524 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or as in linguists. < 1239500539 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just checking, since open issues are quite intriguing < 1239500546 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed! < 1239500569 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm waiting for nouns and adjectives to become the same thing. < 1239500572 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there actually does seem to be some genuine difference between the conceptual content of nouns versus verbs < 1239500577 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or nouns versus clauses < 1239500577 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll happen if we stop using the plural form of our noun. < 1239500584 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: in some languages they are < 1239500602 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lojban < 1239500603 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but loosing plural wont be enough to cause it, kerlo. < 1239500604 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1239500611 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no i mean real languages, oklopol. :p < 1239500616 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like the only difference between noun and adjective is that noun can become plural while adjective can't. < 1239500620 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some languages dont distinguish nouns and adjectives < 1239500626 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :others dont distinguish verbs and adjectives < 1239500630 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lojban is very real < 1239500638 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the plural form of adjective are the same as the singular form. < 1239500640 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few dont distinguish nouns and verbs! < 1239500646 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: so? < 1239500654 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats not the only difference. < 1239500661 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1239500671 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a huge number of differences < 1239500686 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'll happen if we stop using the plural form of our noun. <<< do you happen often? < 1239500687 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But noun can be used as adjective, more or less. Put a noun before a noun, and it modifies it as an adjective would. < 1239500689 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the corest of the differences is is simply that adjectives are adjectives and nouns are nouns < 1239500707 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: nominal modification is not the same thing tho. < 1239500715 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, its very different. < 1239500731 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adjectives are actually a lot more complex than you'd think too < 1239500733 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it looks the same. < 1239500739 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesnt < 1239500748 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DO YOU HAPPEN OFTEN < 1239500750 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only "looks the same" in that both come before a noun. < 1239500759 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In "a brick house", I can't even tell whether "brick" is being a noun or an adjective. < 1239500764 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but so what? thats a minor fact. < 1239500770 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop bikeshedding, this is the real issue. < 1239500776 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a noun. < 1239500796 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It means that someone might say "a brick house", intending for "bring" to be a noun, and someone else might look at that and say, "oh, 'brick' is an adjective". < 1239500801 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, you could interpret it as a complex adjective, this is true < 1239500804 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance < 1239500819 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might say that brick is a noun with a 0 derivational morpheme that turns it into an adjective < 1239500854 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this isnt going to make adjectives and nouns merge in english < 1239500864 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atleast not without a LOT of further erosion of the differences < 1239500869 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there are still a LOT of differences. < 1239500876 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds true. < 1239501652 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lulz < 1239501661 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-hG6YJQ0YI < 1239501816 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive, you are terrible people < 1239501862 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1239501999 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man < 1239502017 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the name shakespeare has historically been written no fewer than fifty five different ways < 1239502027 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before the normalization of english spelling < 1239502212 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :checkspir < 1239502217 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My favorite spelling: < 1239502243 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheykhs peer. < 1239502293 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...heck. < 1239502293 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1239502304 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S-with-circumflex e-with-acute k s p e-with-macron r. < 1239502317 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :šékspēr < 1239502318 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1239502323 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. < 1239502333 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats what you just said :p < 1239502342 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that looks like a phonetic alphabet being used < 1239502343 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pronounce the s-with-circumflex as in Esperanto, the e-with-acute as in French, and the e-with-macron as in Wiktionary's enPR. < 1239502357 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IPA IS SUPERIOR < 1239502359 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or as in any American dictionary's pronunciation key. < 1239502376 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IPA is superior if there's only one way to pronounce each word. < 1239502391 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ʃeɪkspi˞ < 1239502402 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, words like "superior", "there's", and "word" have multiple pronunciations. < 1239502403 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there IS only one way. < 1239502407 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MY way. everyone else is wrong. < 1239502419 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you're American, I believe, so the British are wrong. < 1239502427 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofcourse they are! < 1239502431 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll die for this! < 1239502438 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION stabs psygnisfive with a Speare
< 1239502447 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THROATWARBLER MANGROVE < 1239502532 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone should make a tee-shirt with a picture of the panchen lama sort of like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Khedrup_Je.jpg < 1239502551 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only where he's sitting in the position of a comma in some phrase < 1239502556 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can all the tee-shirt < 1239502560 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Panchen Comma < 1239502571 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sancho Panza < 1239502580 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Dalai Comma, if noone knows who the Panchen Lama is < 1239502588 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sancho Panza?! :o < 1239502589 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1239502596 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sancho Panza < 1239502623 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats his actual name < 1239502625 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.o < 1239502627 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, esoteric syntax idea: the program is composed of sentences, which are composed of words, and each word has an affix indicating its case and an affix indicating whether it's indicative or infinitive. < 1239502649 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: you're describing like half the words languages there. < 1239502682 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psygnisfive: can you say that again using either more punctuation or fewer typos? < 1239502696 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1239502698 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, "world's"? < 1239502703 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worlds* < 1239502704 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1239502705 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry. < 1239502725 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, human languages tend to act like that. < 1239502734 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which, clearly, means we should make a computer language that acts like that. < 1239502767 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like-head-indicative i-subject-indicative eat-object-infinitive taco-object-indicative < 1239502772 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one problem with that is < 1239502776 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what? < 1239502784 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :case inflected for mood < 1239502788 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats odd. < 1239502809 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, whats this head thing? and object on eat? what? < 1239502833 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like to eat tacos. < 1239502852 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats ... an odd way of describing that. < 1239502859 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Like" is the head of the sentence, "I" is the subject of "like", "to eat" is the object of "like", "taco" is the object of "to eat". < 1239502874 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, thats completely wrong. < 1239502893 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I reject your linguistics and substitute my own. < 1239502899 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, head? head-ness isnt something that is marked. < 1239502914 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to turn it into some sort of predicate system < 1239502941 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like(I, eat(PRO,taco)) < 1239502949 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the thing that you like is not _just_ eating. < 1239502951 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its eating tacos. < 1239503002 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why there's taco-object-indivative there. It makes it "eating tacos" instead of just "eating". < 1239503020 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i suppose in some sense you might MARK "eat" < 1239503044 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming "eat" is the head of subclause (its not), you could mark the head of the clause for this sort of thing. < 1239503070 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however your markings are backwards < 1239503083 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eat should get indicative, and taco should get infinitive < 1239503087 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is a clause the same thing as a phrase? < 1239503092 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1239503105 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the grounds that the marking indicates the "mood" of the clause its in. < 1239503118 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In English, in "I like to eat tacos", "to eat" is in the infinitive, is it not? < 1239503156 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the clause is infinitive, yes. or you might say the verb is. but were not talking about the form of the verb, we're talking about the form of the marker that gets affixed to the words. < 1239503173 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shrugs.
< 1239503187 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if X is the head of an argument of an indicative clause, X concordializes by showing "IND" < 1239503196 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :similar for infinitive < 1239503207 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whether this system is like human languages or not, and whether I'm using terminology correctly or not, it's a system. < 1239503226 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your system is poorly defined, and potentially inconsistent. :P < 1239503293 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's poorly defined in that I haven't told you much. < 1239503311 0 :MouD!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1239503369 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, let's say that every predicate receives an M tag, which is either D or F, and a C tag, which can be any of many things. < 1239503428 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The main predicate of the sentence is the one whose C tag is H. Every other predicate is an argument; the predicate that it's an argument to is the nearest predicate that can accept an argument of its C tag. < 1239503448 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1239503461 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speak more clearly < 1239503511 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally, D and F change the meaning of the predicate: a D predicate acts normally, while an F predicate essentially states that its subject is the predicate. < 1239503529 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know what you're saying. < 1239503608 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doesnt matter < 1239503610 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have cake. < 1239503697 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, for example, in the sentence "like-H-D i-S-D eat-O-F taco-O-D", the main predicate is "like", "i" is an argument to the nearest predicate that can accept an S (which is "like" for some unspecified reason), "eat" is an argument to the nearest predicate that can accept an O (which is definitely "like"), and "taco" is an argument to the nearest predicate that can accept an O (which is now "eat"). < 1239503786 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Subject and Object are not properties of words, you know. also, EAT can accept subjects. as in, "i eat taco" < 1239503805 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i is just as near to like as it is to eat < 1239503822 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed; that's why I said "for some unspecified reason". < 1239503846 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be order specific. e.g., "nearest preceeding" < 1239503871 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly tho, i dont see the point of making the subject/object distinction < 1239503903 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres no such distinction in natural languages, in terms of argument structure, only in terms of some vague, poorly specified way that noone really has defined, let alone provide clear evidence for. < 1239503931 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean by "in terms of argument structure"? < 1239503943 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :structure of the arguments of the verbal predicate < 1239503962 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in simple terms, something like: like(liker, liked), eat(eater, eaten), etc. < 1239503982 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :run(runner) < 1239503984 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain() < 1239503988 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't see what you mean. < 1239503998 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the number and kind of arguments. < 1239504029 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In "I love her", "I" is the subject and "her" is the object, and you can tell both by the positioning of the words and the words themselves. < 1239504034 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we actually think that arguments to predicates can be one of any number of kinds of things. doers, doees, goals, sources, etc. < 1239504056 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, kerlo, but theres a serious flaw in that argument < 1239504074 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"subject" and "object" convey, by your definition, nothing but positional notions. < 1239504076 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :firstly. < 1239504105 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :secondly, this isnt always true. sometimes the subject follows the verb in english, and there are a number of cases in italian where it follows. < 1239504112 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb gotta run up to the store < 1239504117 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dont say anything while im gone! < 1239504134 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you come back, tell me what I said that is incorrect, if anything. < 1239504759 0 :bsmntbombdood_!n=gavin@97-118-114-92.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1239504797 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1239505753 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back desu yo. < 1239505760 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not that what you said was incorrect < 1239505770 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its that the notions of subject and object are essentially meaningless < 1239505786 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subject might be construable as the thing being talked about, but even then its shakey < 1239505795 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english subjects are topics in generall < 1239506172 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats more, the position of the "subject" isnt always the same in english < 1239506205 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let alone other languages < 1239506224 0 :Ilari_!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1239506236 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that the rule for that language isnt universal. < 1239506249 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in italian, for instance, some "subjects" look like objects, or vice versa < 1239506250 0 :mental!n=lament@S010600110999ad06.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1239506344 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1239506348 0 :mental!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :lament