←2009-04-14 2009-04-15 2009-04-16→ ↑2009 ↑all
00:32:07 -!- fizzie has joined.
00:33:51 <oklopol> hello fizzie do you like lemons
00:46:46 -!- MizardX has quit ("reboot").
00:49:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
00:50:18 -!- MizardX has joined.
01:18:55 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:22:51 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
01:29:21 -!- neldoreth has quit ("Lost terminal").
01:31:42 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
01:46:28 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:54:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("X-Chat -> http://xchat.org <- At least when I quit I don't look like a lamer").
03:41:52 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
03:58:00 -!- sebbu has joined.
04:00:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
04:14:46 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
04:26:20 -!- comex has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
04:39:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
06:30:50 -!- FireFly has joined.
06:34:22 <fizzie> oklopol: When life gives you lemons, make a lemur.
06:36:52 <Sgeo_> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?896
06:37:00 <Slereah> When life gives you lemon, make lemonade.
06:37:07 <Slereah> Assuming you also got water and a glass
06:37:30 <Gracenotes> and sugar, pleeasse
06:37:34 <Sgeo_> "I'm allergic to citrus". "When life gives you lemons, swell up and die."
06:37:41 <pikhq> When life gives you lemons, distill the citric acid out of it.
06:37:49 <Gracenotes> otherwise it's just lemon juice
06:38:03 <Slereah> When god gives you lemon, you FIND A NEW GOD
06:38:24 <Slereah>    ____∧∧  / ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄
06:38:25 <Slereah>  ~' ____(,,゚Д゚)< SWELL UP AND DIE!
06:38:25 <Slereah>    UU    U U   \________
06:39:05 <Gracenotes> :3
06:39:11 <Sgeo_> I can't see the unicode
06:39:25 <Slereah> Buy some unicode
06:39:32 * pikhq kicks rxvt-unicode
06:39:38 <pikhq> I can't see the Unicode, either.
06:39:50 <pikhq> In a terminal which advertises Unicode support as one of its main features!
06:40:22 <Gracenotes> ( ´_ゝ`)
06:40:40 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers8/gikogiko.jpg
06:41:23 <pikhq> More frustrating when you can rather readily write things that need Unicode.
06:41:24 <Gracenotes> (´ー`)
06:41:30 <pikhq> Indeed.
06:41:59 <Gracenotes> \|  ̄ヘ ̄|/
06:42:14 <Slereah> Have some ASCII Shii then
06:42:26 <Slereah> (*°__°)
06:43:27 <Slereah>       ∧ ∧ .____ _           
06:43:27 <Slereah>        (*゚ー゚) |  |@j|〕二l          
06:43:27 <Slereah>      ノ つ,-ー|  |llロ|二l'           
06:43:27 <Slereah>    ~(_| ̄ ̄ ̄| ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄|
06:43:27 <Slereah>     .┗┳|___|____|  
06:43:35 <Slereah> Ahah! I'm using the internet
06:43:49 <Gracenotes> ⋱⊗∙⊗⋰
06:44:43 <Gracenotes> ≀-.-≀
06:45:39 <Gracenotes> イ_イ
06:45:53 <Gracenotes>
06:46:02 <Slereah> Needs more COOL FREE RINGTONES.
06:47:05 <Gracenotes> (ິ.ິ)
06:48:03 <Gracenotes>
06:48:14 <Gracenotes> ೮⌟೮
06:48:21 <Slereah>     ____
06:48:22 <Slereah>    / / /|
06:48:22 <Slereah>  _| ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄| |__
06:48:22 <Slereah> / |____|/ /
06:48:22 <Slereah>  ̄ ̄ |し |  ̄ ̄
06:48:22 <Slereah>    し⌒J
06:48:46 <Gracenotes>
06:48:57 <Gracenotes> ⍃⍄⌄⍃⍄
06:49:37 <Gracenotes> hey, improvising is not easy!
06:50:07 <pikhq> Baka ne.
06:50:23 <Slereah> Nurupo.
06:50:42 <Gracenotes> ַo ַo
06:51:05 <Gracenotes> ٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪٪v٪
06:51:46 <Gracenotes> -_-
07:08:13 -!- SimonRC has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:22:35 -!- olsner has joined.
07:28:36 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving").
07:54:52 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:55:14 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
08:36:39 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
08:48:53 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
09:11:26 -!- M0ny has joined.
09:13:23 <M0ny> plop
09:13:28 <Slereah> yo
09:23:31 <oklopol> glio
09:26:09 -!- oerjan has joined.
09:55:33 <oklopol> I BELIEVE NOW
09:56:00 <Slereah> Don't believe in yourself
09:56:05 <Slereah> Believe in me, who believes in you.
09:57:27 <oerjan> Don't believe in Slereah, he doesn't really exist!
09:57:32 <oklopol> :|
09:58:08 <oklopol> no no i believe in a higher power. i decided this 5 minutes ago.
09:58:33 <Slereah> I'm a higher power
09:58:33 <oerjan> ah
09:58:37 <oklopol> tomorrow i shall believe in a lower power.
09:58:37 <Slereah> Feel my mighty dong.
09:58:58 <oerjan> Slereah: i'm not interested in your vietnamese currency
09:59:11 <oklopol> xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
09:59:38 <oklopol> wait why is it funny
10:00:03 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers3/Vietnam_dong_1976.jpg
10:00:07 <Slereah> Are you sure?
10:00:11 <Slereah> It's hard and shiny.
10:00:33 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_%C4%91%E1%BB%93ng
10:00:44 <oklopol> i wish i had a dong :'(
10:00:46 <Slereah> I actually have some of that.
10:00:51 <Slereah> I have 5000 dongs :o
10:00:57 <Slereah> (Because it's worthless)
10:02:21 <oklopol> Slereah: you have to be more specific, which comments are about money and which are about penises
10:02:42 <Slereah> Well, can you guess what would fit in my room
10:02:55 <Slereah> 5000 dongs worth of Vietnamese currency
10:02:59 <Slereah> Or 5000 penises
10:03:09 <oerjan> probably both, technically
10:03:26 <Slereah> Well, 5000 penises would take up significant space, though
10:03:40 <Slereah> If I had 5000 dongs, I'd probably store them in the attic
10:03:41 <oklopol> living in a room containing 5000 rotting human penises would probably be an interesting experience if you're gay
10:04:15 <oerjan> well you might invest in a freezer
10:04:23 <oklopol> hmm true
10:04:32 <Slereah> Why, I'm not going to eat them.
10:05:10 <oerjan> it's for science!
10:05:43 <Slereah> Then be my assistant.
10:06:03 <oerjan> er...
10:06:17 <oerjan> suddenly the ethical considerations start looming large
10:06:17 <oklopol> you could call them cocksicles and sell them at the market
10:06:39 <Slereah> Tests-sicles
10:07:06 <oklopol> "hihi what a funny novelty popsicle, these will be great for Margette's bachelorette party!"
10:07:18 <oklopol> *Margarette
10:07:29 <oklopol> i'm not sure that's a better name
10:07:54 <oklopol> point is that would be good reality tv
10:08:02 <oklopol> OH MY GOD THEY'RE ALIVE
10:08:15 <oerjan> oklopol: the name suitable enhances the stereotype
10:08:18 <oerjan> *y
10:08:34 <oklopol> WHAT STEREOTYPE DURRRRR
10:08:47 <Slereah> Margarette is the real name of Maggie.
10:08:59 <Slereah> A baby, sucking on rotting severed penises
10:08:59 <oerjan> of the kind of people who would say "hihi what a funny novelty popsicle, these will be great for Margette's bachelorette party!"
10:09:01 <Slereah> You sicken me
10:09:21 <oerjan> wait who sickens who
10:09:29 <oklopol> oerjan: most probably true.
10:09:38 <oklopol> i did have a reason to choose it
10:10:22 <oklopol> and it was exactly the fact that it suitable enhanced the stereotype of the kind of people who say the kind of thing the character said even though aforementioned dude (who was a chick) wasn't margarette but her friend.
10:11:17 <oklopol> i should probably go now, my new religion is making me a bit pseudosemantic.
10:11:51 <Sgeo_> Fake meaning?
10:11:56 <oerjan> maybe your religion needs a bit more gloom
10:12:04 <oklopol> maybe
10:12:22 <oklopol> current one is probably like christianity because i caught it in the shower
10:12:27 <oklopol> and neighbors are probably
10:12:31 <oklopol> christian
10:12:38 <Sgeo_> why am i still up
10:13:14 <oerjan> Sgeo_: because you haven't fallen yet
10:13:37 <Sgeo_> Bye all
10:13:54 <oerjan> and the bye
10:13:58 <oklopol> bye
10:14:08 <oklopol> can christianity be passed on through water?
10:14:29 <oerjan> oklopol: hm that _would_ explain that baptism thing wouldn't it?
10:14:41 <oklopol> :D
10:14:44 <oklopol> you're a genius
10:14:48 <oklopol> but seriously though
10:14:50 <oklopol> yeah
10:14:52 <oklopol> probably that's true
10:15:30 <oklopol> well. need to go to the shoppe, to buy religious things, then university stuff.
10:15:37 <oklopol> a whole hour of it!
10:15:47 <oerjan> eek
10:17:28 <oerjan> heh
10:18:06 <oerjan> from wikipedia's On this day i deduce that Kim Il-Sung was born the same day Titanic sank
10:18:31 <oerjan> i would guess the north koreans largely don't advertise that
10:18:39 <Slereah> Or don't know that
10:19:12 <oklopol> what's a titannic?
10:19:18 <oerjan> but Titanic was obviously one of the great failures of capitalism, they have to know about it
10:19:36 <oklopol> oerjan: then why wouldn't they advertise it?
10:19:47 <oerjan> they might not mention the date
10:19:58 <oerjan> hm maybe they would
10:20:16 <oklopol> but it's like their great and massive leader killed the capitalisms and you know.
10:20:27 <oklopol> by borning to a world.
10:21:14 <oklopol> excuse me. i suck at leaving.
10:21:19 <oklopol> but maybe ->
10:32:12 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
11:13:33 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("X-Chat -> http://xchat.org <- At least when I quit I don't look like a lamer").
11:30:02 -!- oerjan has quit ("At least when I quit I don't look like a llama").
11:43:59 -!- MizardX has quit ("got to go").
12:34:18 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
12:46:17 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:11:06 -!- FireFly has joined.
15:19:20 <oklopol> someone explain what sense victim caches make to me
15:19:25 <oklopol> err
15:19:30 <oklopol> lol i figured them out midsentence
15:19:31 <oklopol> ...
15:28:28 <ehird> 05:39 pikhq: In a terminal which advertises Unicode support as one of its main features!
15:28:32 <ehird> i think it's shiftjis
15:28:56 <ehird> now someone fix x11
15:39:15 <ehird> 11:21:44 <AnMaster> tusho, php then header().
15:39:15 <ehird> 11:21:49 <tusho> AnMaster: HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
15:39:16 <ehird> 11:21:56 * tusho kicks AnMaster
15:48:00 <ehird> 11:49:27 <oerjan> optbot: your wisdom is beyond compare
15:48:00 <ehird> 11:49:28 <optbot> oerjan: you could not infect OpenBSD boxes with it, though
15:48:08 <ehird> 11:49:49 <oerjan> optbot: you only run on Linux then?
15:48:08 <ehird> 11:49:50 <optbot> oerjan: also the world's best imperative language.
15:49:38 <ehird> 11:55:29 <ais523> fungot: YOU ARE A RUBBISH BOT! HAH! EAT FLAMES,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,eheheheh...
15:49:38 <ehird> 11:55:30 <fungot> ais523: has scheme only 26 levels of recursion
15:52:51 <FireFly> ..what language is optbot coded in?
15:52:57 <ehird> FireFly: ruby
15:53:00 <FireFly> Ah
15:53:00 <ehird> 40 line hack
15:53:05 <FireFly> :o
15:53:06 <ehird> it just picks random lines from the logs
15:53:09 <ehird> and blabs them
15:53:12 <ehird> or changes the topic to them
15:54:01 <FireFly> It'd be interesting if fungot bashed ruby instead of haskell, bot wars
15:54:08 <FireFly> Eh
15:54:10 <FireFly> scheme*
15:54:23 <ehird> web.archive.org is doooooooooown
15:56:47 -!- fungot has joined.
15:56:52 <ehird> ooh, I'm up to the part where AnMaster acts as if I'm immoral for not telling everyone what tentaclerapture.com was about on the front page
15:57:00 <ehird> gets me every time
15:57:19 <fizzie> Since fungot's language model is for the most parts #scheme logs, it tends to be a bit biased to talk about that particular language.
15:57:19 <fungot> fizzie: that's tragic. typical. those pigs... cardelli, et al's theory of objects. do you have
15:57:29 <ehird> :-DDDDDDD
15:57:30 <fizzie> Yes, very tragic.
16:01:42 <ehird> 18:05:17 * Sgeo won in a shoppa match (in Worms)
16:01:47 <ehird> Fun fact: People who call it 'shoppa' suck balls.
16:06:31 <ehird> 06:58:44 <tusho> optbot: we're gonna have to put you in rehab
16:06:31 <ehird> 06:58:45 <optbot> tusho: to allow pushing several in one row
16:06:32 <ehird> 06:58:51 <AnMaster> well
16:06:33 <FireFly> Well, he has a point, it IS typical
16:06:34 <ehird> 06:58:56 <tusho> optbot: no, you can't take drugs any more sorry
16:06:36 <ehird> 06:58:56 <optbot> tusho: what is your complaint
16:06:38 <ehird> 06:59:07 <tusho> optbot: drugs are bad for computer programs mmkay
16:06:40 <ehird> 06:59:07 <optbot> tusho: I dunno. :|
16:07:10 <FireFly> :D
16:07:19 <ehird> 07:08:12 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: There's a family name in my family that hasn't been used for, oh, ten generations or so.
16:07:19 <ehird> 07:09:14 <AnMaster> optbot, what name is that?
16:07:21 <ehird> 07:09:14 <optbot> AnMaster: what's wrong with this one?, (define (fib n) (+ (fib (- n 1) (- n 2))))
16:07:35 <FireFly> funny fungot is fungotty
16:07:35 <ehird> Calling people (define (fib n) (+ (fib (- n 1) (- n 2)))) got a bit unwieldy, I guess.
16:07:36 <fungot> FireFly: nope, i'm trying my best. could you briefly explain how that is
16:07:43 <ehird> FireFly: that was optbot
16:07:46 <ehird> THE ORIGINAL
16:07:53 <FireFly> Ah well
16:07:59 <FireFly> yeah, I noticed
16:08:07 <FireFly> But I wanted some fungot sentence
16:08:07 <fungot> FireFly: spiders are cool.
16:08:43 <ehird> 08:17:54 <tusho> -rw-r----- 1 root adm 1.5G Sep 24 15:16 /var/log/apache2/access.log
16:08:43 <ehird> yow
16:14:21 <ehird> 13:21:20 <ais523> AnMaster: not exactly, tusho only likes Mac fonts
16:14:29 <ehird> Here we see an excellent misunderstanding of cause vs effect
16:30:20 <ehird> http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2008/05/13/introducing-qgtkstyle/ AWESOME.
16:57:17 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:05:27 <AnMaster> ais523, hi I forgot again how one inputs a non-printable char in emacs... I need to put a literal null byte in a text file to test something.
17:06:01 <ais523> control-q, then either type the literal character, or type its character code and press return
17:06:07 <ais523> the character code's input in octal by default, IIRC
17:06:10 <ais523> but many people change that
17:06:15 <AnMaster> hm ok
17:06:25 <ais523> so C-q 0 RET is how you type a literal NUL
17:07:44 <AnMaster> err. something is wrong..
17:08:00 <AnMaster> the 0 case worked
17:08:01 <ehird> octal? why?
17:08:22 <AnMaster> ais523, but when I tried 12... well I'm not sure what happened, hard to describe
17:09:14 <ais523> ehird: back when Emacs became popular, octal was the usual method of abbreviating binary
17:09:19 <AnMaster> it inserted two newlines instead of one hm. But only in that specific buffer
17:09:22 <AnMaster> how strange
17:09:40 <ais523> as it worked on the seven-segment displays that were popular in early computers
17:09:45 <ehird> ais523: heh.
17:09:56 <ais523> although they'd moved onto proper screens by then, octal still hadn't given way to hex
17:10:02 <AnMaster> ais523, is it possible that mule-utf8 mode thingy mess this up?
17:10:20 <AnMaster> also I have no idea why emacs decided to enable that for this file
17:10:21 <ais523> AnMaster: it shouldn't, I don't think
17:10:22 * ehird looks into writing a haskell extension to ghc that automatically reloads modules
17:10:36 <ehird> i'm tired of C-c C-l and remaking my definitions!
17:10:48 <ehird> er
17:10:48 <ehird> ghci
17:10:49 <ehird> ofc
17:11:05 <ehird> "relohder"
17:11:07 * ehird is shot
17:11:32 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
17:11:47 <ehird> see, it has an h
17:11:49 <ehird> for haskell
17:11:52 <ehird> great pun!
17:12:05 <AnMaster> ais523, why does C-q mode display a space between every digit in the minibuffer?
17:12:13 <AnMaster> s/mode //
17:12:20 <ais523> it's the standard multicharacter echo
17:12:31 <ais523> C-q 1 2 RET is effectively a multicharacter command
17:12:42 <ais523> and it writes each character in the command separately when echoing
17:13:11 <AnMaster> ais523, some stuff in the minibuffer doesn't do such spaces though. C-s for example.
17:13:21 <ehird> that's because it's not a command
17:13:21 <ais523> C-s is a minor mode, not a multicharacter command
17:13:28 <ehird> it's a command that opens a minibuffer input thing
17:13:31 <AnMaster> ais523, heh interesting
17:13:36 <ehird> (do you know anything about emacs?!)
17:13:41 <ehird> (I don't even USE it!)
17:13:43 <ais523> likewise, C-x C-f is a multicharacter command, but the file input afterwards is a prompt
17:13:57 <ais523> so you don't get spaces inside the filename
17:14:07 <AnMaster> ehird, well I haven't studied much about its internals
17:14:14 <ehird> that's not internals...
17:14:30 <ais523> well, it is internals but you can deduce it all just from thinking while using Emacs
17:14:36 <AnMaster> my main interest was just using it. I haven't really cared how it works as long as it worked as I wanted it.
17:15:00 <ehird> it's basic elements of the UI
17:15:28 <AnMaster> ehird, yes and I haven't really cared about how it worked, I have been able to use it just fine without knowing that.
17:15:39 <ehird> how can you use a UI without knowing how the UI works
17:15:43 <ehird> that's a contradiction in terms
17:16:00 <ais523> ehird: contradiction or not, I've certainly seen lots of people /do/ it...
17:16:04 <ais523> normally badly
17:16:08 <ehird> yes, they're called secretaries, ais523
17:16:31 <ais523> actually, secretaries nowadays are normally pretty good with the computer tasks they need to do
17:16:36 <ais523> although often it's cargo-cult style
17:16:42 <AnMaster> ehird, you seem to be saying that you need to know that C-s is a minor mode to be able to use C-s? Why?
17:16:50 <ehird> AnMaster: nothing related to minor mode
17:17:03 <ehird> it's related to having an input field in the minibuffer vs it echoing a command as you type it
17:17:05 <ehird> that's trivial
17:17:06 <ais523> it's obvious that it's a minor mode, though, because Isearch comes up on the modeline
17:17:28 <ais523> likewise, M-x C-x o works rather differently from C-q C-x o
17:17:41 <ais523> the reasons why should be obvious, especially if you know the difference between M-x and C-q
17:18:07 <AnMaster> ais523, hm that thing on modeline, haven't noticed one of those showed up for Isearch, now that you mention it though
17:19:37 <AnMaster> ais523, M-x is just execute-command iirc?
17:19:51 <AnMaster> hm correction: C-h k M-x claims it is execute-extended-command.
17:20:02 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, M-x lets you execute arbitrary commands
17:20:06 <ais523> by typing in their extended name
17:20:17 <ais523> you can do M-x forward-char if you really want to
17:20:26 <ais523> pretty much the only thing that doesn't sanely work is M-x self-insert-command
17:20:29 <ais523> as it doesn't know which character to insert
17:20:47 <ehird> ais523: it enters ^M
17:20:52 <ais523> (self-insert-command's the default binding for all the alphabetic, numeric and punctuation keys)
17:20:52 <ehird> and says you can run it with SPC
17:21:00 <ais523> ehird: heh
17:21:10 <ais523> that behaviour's plausible, knowing Emacs' internals
17:21:50 <AnMaster> C-q runs the command quoted-insert
17:21:51 <AnMaster> which is an interactive compiled Lisp function in `simple.el'.
17:21:51 <AnMaster> It is bound to C-q.
17:21:55 <AnMaster> err a bit redundant?
17:22:04 <AnMaster> from C-h k C-q
17:22:05 <ais523> not really, that means it isn't bound to anything else
17:22:06 <ehird> nope.
17:22:12 <ehird> what ais523 said
17:23:41 <AnMaster> ais523, ok that makes sense. I can't think of a case where you would want to bind to several key combinations, though. (but I don't see any reason to forbid doing so either)
17:23:56 <ais523> well, you want self-insert-command bound to most of the keys on your keyboard
17:24:17 <ais523> and due to the existence of modes, it happens quite a bit
17:24:36 <ais523> for instance, moving a rectangular block of code can be done with C-x r k, C-x r y
17:24:40 <AnMaster> well that's true. And it is a rather interesting way to handle normal input :)
17:24:51 <AnMaster> certainly very "emacs-y"
17:24:53 <ais523> a hypothetical befunge-mode would probably introduce abbreviations for those
17:25:05 <ais523> but it would be insane if it removed the original bindings
17:25:34 <AnMaster> indeed.
17:29:44 * ehird digs up a K interp
17:31:05 <ais523> ah, NASA came up with an interesting solution to the whole Colbert thing
17:31:37 <ehird> oh?
17:31:39 <ais523> instead of naming the new module after him, they went and called their newest treadmill the Combined Operational Load Bearing External Resistance Treadmill
17:32:03 <ais523> and one of those is shipping up to the ISS
17:32:21 <ehird> lame
17:32:49 <AnMaster> Humans need ECC memory.
17:33:10 <ais523> AnMaster: how do you know they don't have it/
17:33:22 <ehird> humans need computers to do that sort of stuff for them
17:33:41 <ehird> "• Learn the kdb+ programming language q from the tutorials at code.kx.com. Buy the Q for Mortals book on Amazon. "
17:33:45 <ehird> what if I plan on being immortal?
17:33:46 <AnMaster> ais523, considering of often we misremember stuff that happened several years ago.
17:33:54 <ehird> http://kx.com/images/0903-DownloadKX.png
17:34:00 <ehird> a 32 bit trial version. yaaaaaaaay .
17:34:03 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not errors
17:34:09 <ehird> that's just shifting unused memory out
17:34:17 <ehird> it's fuzzy garbage collection
17:34:57 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't that be "forget" rather than "misremember"? Or do you mean the GC corrupts the data?
17:35:11 <ehird> We don't remember so we make shit up
17:37:14 <AnMaster> hm that isn't always the case though, sometimes you distinctly remember that [some event] happened in [some year], but checking with letters or whatever shows it happened a year or two [before/after]
17:37:16 <AnMaster> or such
17:46:39 <ehird> q)\l /dev/null
17:46:39 <ehird> k){if[$[1>@d:!f:-1!x;1;`.d~*d];:.[$[qt d;*|`\:f;`.];();:;d:. f]];p:(d=`par.txt)|d like"[0-9]*";
17:46:41 <ehird> ."\\cd ",$x;f .q.set'{$[0>@!x:-1!x;. x;x`]}'f:d@&~(d=`html)|p|s:"."in'$d;if[|/p;L d@&p];if[~`.=x;(."\\l ",$:)'d@&s&~p];}
17:46:43 <ehird> 'type
17:46:45 <ehird> .:
17:46:47 <ehird> `:/dev/null
17:46:49 <ehird> q))
17:46:52 <ehird> i love k/q
17:47:46 <ais523> at first I thought that was a mix of Perl and shellscript
17:48:02 <ais523> the funny thing is, though, it doesn't look like line noise at all
17:48:08 <ehird> it's a mix of q and k
17:48:12 <ais523> it isn't obviously intelligible; but, you can tell there's meaning in there
17:48:20 <ehird> as in, I type in the q "\l /dev/null", and then it gives the internal K code
17:48:22 <ehird> and some results
17:48:27 <ehird> then I get the q)) prompt
17:48:31 <ehird> I suppose that means debugger
17:48:34 <ehird> as doing it more gets me more )s
17:48:39 <ehird> and ^D pops a ) off
17:49:07 <ehird> interesting
17:49:10 <ehird> q)help
17:49:10 <ehird> {if[not 10h=abs type x;x:string x];$[1=count i:where(key DIR)like x,"*";-1 ea..
17:49:12 <ehird> q)help`
17:49:13 <ehird> <<output>>
17:49:15 <ehird> I guess postfix ` is eval
17:49:47 <ehird> q)1 2 3 * 2
17:49:47 <ehird> 2 4 6
17:49:50 <ehird> reassuring
17:50:09 <ehird> The DNA sequencing of q also shows the influence of functional programming. While q is not purely functional, it is arguably as functional as C++, Java and C# are object-oriented.
17:52:58 <ehird> wow
17:53:03 <ehird> k/q has limited size integers
17:53:09 <ehird> q)5646899984888785456546451513321586789489468465435233165449888788889
17:53:10 <ehird> '5646899984888785456546451513321586789489468465435233165449888788889
17:53:10 <ehird> q)22
17:53:13 <ehird> 22
17:54:32 <ehird> oh, ais523 is here!
17:54:40 <ehird> i has questions
17:54:42 <ais523> how did you not notice?
17:54:48 <ehird> ais523: difficultly.
17:54:49 <ais523> also, I have Enigma levels
17:54:55 <ais523> I've had them for a while, but forgot to paste
17:54:58 <ehird> ais523: heh
17:55:02 <oklopol> enigma dude is back!
17:55:02 <ais523> amusingly, still no AnMaster-style ones
17:55:09 <ehird> ais523: anyway, does c-intercal have any ^Hs in its code?
17:55:12 <ais523> but one of them I've played about 20 times despite having completed it, it's fun
17:55:13 <ehird> or is that moar clc
17:55:14 <ehird> i mean
17:55:17 <ehird> the ical code
17:55:31 <ais523> ehird: C-INTERCAL accepts c backspace / as a mingle character
17:55:37 <ais523> it accepts any syntax so long as it's unambiguous
17:55:45 <ehird> ais523: is it idiotmatic
17:55:45 <ais523> well, any syntax used by any INTERCAL compiler
17:55:48 <ehird> i mean idiomatic/
17:55:52 <ehird> s/\/$//
17:56:03 <ais523> well, the Google coding standards don't recommend using literal backspaces
17:56:10 <ais523> and the vast majority of people use $ because it's easier to type
17:56:17 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL programs are often written using literal backspace, though
17:56:32 <ehird> ais523: see, my intercal compiler will have many strange metafeatures used in its implementation and elsewhere
17:56:41 <ehird> ais523: I wanted to expose them as variables prefixed with an interrobang
17:56:45 <ehird> I'll support ‽, ofc
17:56:47 <ehird> and probably ?!
17:56:51 <ehird> and !?
17:56:54 <ehird> but I'm wondering whether to support...
17:56:55 <ehird> ?^H!
17:56:58 <ehird> and !^H?
17:57:01 <ais523> ?! can exist in regular INTERCAL code
17:57:01 <ehird> :-D
17:57:08 <ehird> ais523: what, as a variable name?
17:57:14 <ais523> "?!4~.5'" is legal code
17:57:19 <ehird> ais523: what, as a variable name?
17:57:35 <ais523> ehird: not as a variable name, but it can appear in a context where the parser couldn't tell them apart for much later
17:57:54 <ehird> ais523: then using ?! sounds perfectly INTERCAL to me.
17:57:59 <ais523> after all, contrast "?!4~.5'" and "?!4~.5"
17:58:06 <ehird> ais523: well.
17:58:09 <ehird> i don't know what those do.
17:58:13 <ehird> wait
17:58:15 <ehird> ~ is mingle right
17:58:17 <ehird> or select
17:58:19 <ais523> no, ~ is select
17:58:21 <ehird> right
17:58:22 <ehird> so it's
17:58:26 <ehird> erm
17:58:29 <ehird> what is the ! var prefix again
17:58:32 <ais523> '.
17:58:36 <ehird> ?
17:58:37 <ais523> a standard abbreviation
17:58:42 <ehird> okay, what's '. :D
17:58:47 <ais523> ' to ' is parens
17:58:51 <ais523> as is " to "
17:58:53 <ehird> ah
17:58:54 <ehird> it's
17:58:55 <ais523> and . is a variable identifier
17:58:59 <ehird> ?!4~.5'
17:59:00 <ehird> right
17:59:01 <ehird> so it's
17:59:04 -!- MizardX has joined.
17:59:04 <ais523> so ! in INTERCAL is like ($ in Perl
17:59:07 <ehird> ? '.4~.5'
17:59:12 <ehird> ais523: what's ?
17:59:16 <ais523> unary XOR
17:59:28 <ais523> although remember it's written one character later than in other languages
17:59:31 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:59:36 <ehird> ais523: so: the unary XORing of the selecting of .4 and .5
17:59:39 <ais523> yes
17:59:43 <ehird> vs the interrobang one which is:
17:59:49 <ehird> ...a syntax error
17:59:53 <ehird> since you have an unmatched '
18:00:01 <ehird> well, I don't see any problem there.
18:00:05 <ais523> yes, but you can't tell that until much later in the expression
18:00:11 <ehird> ais523: and? :D
18:00:15 <ais523> and I'm wondering if you could do two of them which cancelled each other out somehow
18:00:17 <ehird> gimme some code that actually is valid in both forms
18:00:46 <ehird> the recommended form will probably be ‽, for æsthetics
18:01:16 <ais523> ,1SUB'?!1~.2''.3'?!4~.5'' is, I think, ambiguous
18:01:29 <ehird> ais523: wow, nothing simpler?
18:01:56 <ais523> it may actually be ambiguous even without interrobang, let me run it through C-INTERCAL's parser
18:02:40 <ehird> ais523: anyway, which do you think I should allow out of ‽ ?! !? <the unicode char ?!> <the unicode char !?> ?^H! !^H?
18:02:47 <ehird> and which do you think I should recommend?
18:02:57 <ais523> you should allow all but the second and third
18:03:13 <ais523> multichar operators /must/ be overpunched in INTERCAL, or abbreviated to a single char somehow
18:03:18 <ais523> otherwise you're just wasting horizontal space
18:03:33 <ehird> ais523: hmm ... but OTOH, that breaks ASCII-compatibility
18:03:47 <ehird> e.g., with C-INTERCAL you don't need to use any non-printable-ASCII, right?
18:03:52 <ehird> er, save for newlines
18:04:02 <ais523> no
18:04:07 <ehird> ais523: oh?
18:04:08 <ais523> but most of ASCII is already taken
18:04:13 <ais523> as in, no you don't
18:04:15 <ehird> right
18:04:18 <ehird> but I'd like to keep it
18:04:19 <ehird> like that
18:04:29 <ehird> ais523: maybe I could accept "^H" as ^H
18:04:34 <ais523> well, ?^HI is obviously the princeton syntax for the operator
18:04:39 <ais523> * ?^H!
18:04:40 <ehird> so you'd type !^H? -- literally
18:04:47 <ehird> (or ?^H!)
18:04:49 <ais523> the atari syntax would be a single entirely different character
18:04:51 <ais523> maybe `
18:04:55 <ehird> as in, !, ^, H, ?
18:04:57 <ehird> good idea? :P
18:05:08 <ais523> C-INTERCAL is Atari, CLC-INTERCAL is Princeton
18:05:22 <ehird> oi
18:05:24 <ais523> and that's probably not a good idea, although it /is/ what C-INTERCAL does internally to try to explain the syntax to lex
18:05:32 <ehird> why's it not a good idea? :-(
18:05:40 <ehird> it is confusing...
18:05:42 <ehird> :P
18:05:48 <ehird> s/is/\/is\//
18:05:50 <ais523> because ^H is hardly portable, the keyboard might not even have a control key
18:05:56 <ais523> you have to think back to 1972 here
18:05:56 <ehird> ais523: what?
18:05:58 <ehird> I meant
18:05:58 <ehird> ^
18:06:00 <ehird> H
18:06:00 <ais523> not modern assumptions
18:06:02 <ehird> the two characters
18:06:05 <ehird> is accepted as ^H
18:06:06 <ais523> yes, I know
18:06:11 <ais523> ^H is utterly unidiomatic
18:06:25 <ais523> it would make no sense to a 1970s programmer, most likely
18:06:28 <ehird> ais523: well, c-intercal isn't 1972 compatible is it?
18:06:32 <ais523> yes
18:06:52 <ais523> you have to convert the code to a modern character set using convickt if it's written in EBCDIC or something weird like that
18:06:57 <ais523> but it runs 1972 code without modifications
18:07:02 <ehird> that's irrelevant
18:07:09 <ehird> I mean, a person from 1972 couldn't utilize all of cintercal
18:07:26 <ais523> they could if they had the compiler and a copy of the manual
18:07:55 <ehird> what, it uses no non-1972 characters?
18:08:53 <ais523> ASCII and EBCDIC both existed back then
18:09:12 <ais523> and yes, it uses no characters that didn't exist in 1972
18:09:18 <ehird> ais523: and thus the characters ^ and H existed
18:09:21 <ais523> yes
18:09:27 <ais523> but I mean, ^H didn't mean backspace
18:09:28 <ehird> thus ^ followed by H as backspace is not a problem for 1972
18:09:36 <ais523> it's not that people couldn't type it, it's that it made absolutely no sense
18:09:38 <ehird> ais523: and $ didn't mean mingle either
18:09:39 <ais523> compared to the rest of INTERCAL
18:09:54 <ais523> ehird: no, but currency signs in general mean mingle
18:10:00 <ais523> it's a simple generalisation
18:10:12 <ehird> ais523: regardless, intercal has never made esnse
18:10:16 <ais523> and C-INTERCAL accepts the old-fashioned notation for mingle too
18:10:25 <ais523> and please don't say that, there are reasons behind everything there
18:10:27 <ais523> they're just bad reasons
18:11:02 <ehird> ais523: does c-intercal accept unicode cent?
18:11:14 <ais523> yes
18:11:23 <ais523> if expressed in UTF-8
18:11:26 <ais523> it accepts latin-1 cent too
18:11:29 <ais523> yen is a weird case
18:11:31 <ehird> ais523: I just don't want to break ASCIIpatibility
18:11:40 <ais523> it treats it as exclusive-or if given in latin-1, or mingle if given in utf-8
18:11:48 <ais523> which DTRT for nearly all programs
18:11:50 <ehird> OTOH, I don't want to water down the interrobang
18:12:07 <ehird> also
18:12:07 <ais523> I seriously thing ?<literal backspace>! is the right way to do it
18:12:08 <ehird> why?
18:12:09 <ais523> *think
18:12:12 <ehird> re: yen
18:12:25 <ais523> and because CLC-INTERCAL uses the yen sign as an approximation as V backspace -
18:12:32 <ehird> ais523: my favoured editor doesn't do literal backspaces. so.
18:12:33 <ais523> but nearly all CLC-INTERCAL programs are written in Latin-1
18:12:36 <ehird> i don't really want to recommend them
18:12:40 <ais523> ehird: your favoured editor fails
18:12:43 <ais523> really badly
18:12:55 <ehird> ais523: most editors do
18:12:57 <ais523> even Notepad does literal backspaces if you copy and paste them from elsewhere
18:13:00 <ehird> apart from emacs and vi
18:13:01 <ehird> oh
18:13:02 <ehird> well duh
18:13:04 <ehird> ofc my editor does that
18:13:17 <ehird> I mean it doesn't display them nicely and I can't enter them properly
18:13:24 <ehird> unlike, say, vi, where you can do ^V backspace
18:13:52 <ais523> edit.com can do literal backspaces, it's available on pretty much all Windows systems and is older than Notepad
18:13:57 <ehird> meh, I'll just support unicode
18:13:59 <ehird> it's da futur
18:14:11 <lament> darfur
18:14:21 <ais523> ehird: just ship with a copy of convickt, it was specifically invented to avoid these sorts of problems...
18:14:40 <ehird> ais523: how crazy do you think marking a certain type of literal with unbalanced ' and " and nothing else is?
18:14:43 <ehird> that is, 'foo" is it and so is "foo'
18:14:44 <ehird> :D
18:15:07 <ais523> I suspect it'll lead to massive ambiguity
18:15:14 <ehird> ais523: Precisely.
18:15:17 <ais523> just trying to explain what something as simple as .1~.2~.3 does is hard enough
18:15:34 <ais523> in the end I had to find out by experiment, despite having two sets of documentation and two sets of source cde
18:15:35 <ais523> *code
18:15:42 <ehird> er
18:15:45 <ehird> why is that difficult
18:15:53 <ais523> which way does it associate/
18:16:01 <ehird> ah
18:16:18 <ehird> (1) DO ‽1 ← 'DO GIVE UP"
18:16:21 <ehird> ooh
18:16:22 <ehird> I know
18:16:26 <ehird> I could do “ to ”
18:16:37 <ehird> unicode that's similar to ascii is always the answer.
18:16:41 <ais523> if you want to keep compatibility with other compilers, CLC-INTERCAL uses , as a delimiter for that sort of string
18:16:44 <ehird> (1) DO ‽1 ← “DO GIVE UP”
18:16:48 <ehird> guess what that does
18:17:11 <ais523> assigns code to a variable?
18:17:14 <ehird> ais523: hint -- it's the basis for all control flow
18:17:15 <ehird> and nope
18:17:23 <ehird> hm
18:17:24 <ehird> it should be
18:17:28 <ehird> (1) DO ‽2 ← “DO GIVE UP”
18:17:36 <ais523> "it's the basis for all control flow" <--- every INTERCAL implementor ever, talking about about ten different things
18:17:49 <ehird> :-D
18:18:20 <ehird> ais523: it assigns the code "DO GIVE UP" to the line 2
18:19:23 <ehird> ais523: and yes, COME FROM is implemented by symlinking the given line to the lowest untaken fractional of the line number you come from
18:20:05 <ehird> ais523: that is, "(2) COME FROM 1" would symlink 1.1 to 2, or if 1.1 is taken, it'd symlink 1.2, etc
18:20:10 <ais523> symlinking with operand overloading?
18:20:12 <ais523> or a different method?
18:20:15 <ehird> ais523: former
18:20:16 <ais523> what about computed COME FROM
18:20:19 <ais523> also, your syntax is wrong
18:20:25 <ehird> ais523: yes, my syntax is wrong
18:20:25 <ais523> (2) COME FROM (1) <--- uncomputed
18:20:29 <ehird> I'm just explaining the idea
18:20:30 <ais523> (2) COME FROM #1 <--- computed
18:20:33 <ehird> ais523: right
18:20:41 <ais523> grr, something's wrong with filebin.ca
18:20:48 <ehird> ais523: with computed, I think it'd do something crazy.
18:20:55 <ehird> I'm not sure what, but I don't think humanity could handle it.
18:21:08 <ehird> But yeah.
18:21:13 <ehird> Operand overloading fractional line numbers.
18:21:26 <ehird> Discuss.
18:21:26 <ais523> it's simple enough, you can overload a variable to an expression
18:21:33 <ais523> as in .1/.1~.2
18:21:36 <ehird> yes
18:21:37 <ehird> I know
18:21:50 <ehird> ais523: but it's a rather INTERCAL basis for control flow, don't you think?
18:22:04 -!- rodgort has quit ("Coyote finally caught me").
18:22:12 <ais523> ehird: it's one way to implement it
18:22:17 <ais523> but, shouldn't you link them all to the same fractional
18:22:25 -!- rodgort has joined.
18:22:26 <ehird> ais523: eh?
18:22:43 <ais523> (1) DO NOTHING (2) DO COME FROM (1) (3) DO COME FROM (1)
18:22:49 <ais523> causes control to transfer to both (2) and (3)
18:22:52 <ais523> rather than one or the other
18:23:03 <ehird> ais523: ah
18:23:15 <ehird> ais523: if 1.1 was already linked, it'd follow it and go from there
18:23:20 <ehird> so it'd try 1.1 then 2.1, I suppose
18:23:22 <ehird> oh wait
18:23:24 <ehird> ais523: is this threaing/
18:23:26 <ehird> *threading
18:23:28 <ais523> yes
18:23:31 <ehird> it transfers control to them simultaneously
18:23:33 <ehird> ais523: this is in -72?
18:23:33 <ais523> yes
18:23:39 <ais523> no, it's an extension
18:23:40 <AnMaster> ais523, it is an error without threading right?
18:23:42 <ais523> COME FROM wasn't in -72 at all
18:23:44 <ais523> AnMaster: yep
18:23:48 <ehird> ais523: oh, it wasn't?
18:23:49 <AnMaster> I forgot the funny message though
18:23:50 <ehird> bizarre
18:24:02 <ehird> ais523: well, can you operand overload something to multiple things?
18:24:05 <ais523> as Google says, INTERCAL has become best known for a feature that wasn't even in the original
18:24:06 <AnMaster> something like, um, flow graph?
18:24:17 <ais523> ehird: not simultaneously, at least not in C-INTERCAL
18:24:19 <ehird> ais523: if not, I'll add that, and cause the program to thread with both values whenever you use it
18:24:30 <ais523> in CLC-INTERCAL, you might be able to using the "quantum" stuff
18:24:30 <ehird> ais523: thus, COME FROM doesn't have to do anything
18:24:31 <AnMaster> ais523, error was something like "too many connections in control-flow graph" iirc?
18:24:40 <ehird> ais523: the interpreter tries 1.1, and it forks, getting both values, one in each thread
18:24:43 <ais523> IIRC
18:24:43 <ehird> and continues to them
18:24:46 <ehird> ais523: awesome y/n
18:24:53 <AnMaster> ais523, ah that sounds about right
18:25:14 <ehird> multiple operand overloading and code lines as variables = control flow and threading in one
18:26:01 <ais523> anyway, Enigma level: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1392961 (ais52309_1.xml)
18:26:04 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:26:12 <ehird> ais523: you seem slightly underwhelmed
18:26:21 <ais523> ehird: I'm used to this sort of thing
18:26:26 <ais523> it happens all the time in INTERCAL
18:26:34 <ehird> here I was thinking operand overloading to multiple targets causing a quantum-ish threading, then using that on variable names to do threaded COME FROM
18:26:36 <ehird> was pretty cool.
18:26:42 <ehird> ais523: sure, but I'm a newbie :-P
18:27:02 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/raw/1392963 (ais52310_1.xml)
18:27:12 <ehird> ais523: it should be noted that I'm doing a compiler
18:27:15 <ais523> 10 is a level that someone had to do sometime; 09 is a level that I've played loads of times
18:27:22 <ais523> ehird: compiler, or interp?
18:27:26 <ais523> and what are you compiling to, if compiling?
18:27:36 <ehird> ais523: compiler, and INTERCAL
18:27:50 <ais523> you're compiling INTERCAL to INTERCAL?
18:27:57 <ais523> as in, modern INTERCAL to INTERCAL-72?
18:28:03 <ais523> or just running through cat?
18:28:11 <ehird> ais523: nope, modern INTERCAL to the compiler internal extensions only
18:28:30 <ehird> thus, all that's left is the internal compiler extensions
18:28:54 <ehird> what you do with the result is up to you, probably I'll have a compiler from that to something else
18:29:00 <ais523> ah
18:29:11 <ais523> so it's actually quite a CLC-INTERCAL-like system
18:29:17 <ehird> yes
18:29:20 <ehird> ais523: but not cheating
18:29:28 <ehird> as in, CLC-INTERCAL's extensions are only for compiler use
18:29:28 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL isn't cheating either, IMO
18:29:31 <ehird> and discouraged elsewhere
18:29:33 <ehird> but not here
18:30:07 <ehird> ais523: also, no sneaky embedded perl
18:30:40 <ehird> the essential problem is that I think the compiler results will require the compiler
18:30:44 <ehird> because of ‽
18:30:49 <AnMaster> ais523, style of these two new engima levels?
18:30:51 <ehird> but hey, who cares
18:31:11 <ais523> AnMaster: 10 is a pure intelligence puzzle translated into Enigmaese
18:31:18 <ehird> ais523: oh, and you know the INTERCAL IDE (INTERCAL Defenestration Environment) Environment I was talking about?
18:31:22 <ais523> 09 is rather interesting and hard to classify
18:31:28 <ais523> ehird: no
18:31:33 <ehird> ais523: yeah you do :-P
18:31:37 <ehird> ais523: when I said i'd port it to gnustep
18:31:39 <ais523> 09 mostly comes out as a mix of intelligence and dex
18:31:41 <ais523> ehird: oh, yes
18:31:42 <ehird> and give out a gnustep vm with it preloaded
18:31:45 <AnMaster> ais523, 10 sounds interesting definitely, and 9 is hard to know from that description
18:31:49 <ehird> ais523: Better: it'll be written for ReactOS only
18:31:50 * AnMaster downloads them
18:31:51 <ehird> it won't run onwindows
18:31:52 <ehird> just reactOS
18:32:07 <ais523> AnMaster: how would you classify a level that's just floor and oxyds?
18:32:10 <ehird> oh, and maybe WINE
18:32:28 <ais523> 9's like that, just the floor is interestingly weird which makes the level very interesting
18:32:33 <ehird> I found it amusing, anyway
18:32:37 <ais523> ehird: sounds about right
18:32:42 <ais523> WINE and ReactOS share lots of code IIRC
18:32:47 <ais523> so it's plausible
18:32:51 <ais523> and WINE runs on Windows, so it would even be portable
18:32:53 <ehird> oh, in that case I'll have to get it running on only one of them
18:33:02 <AnMaster> ais523, um. depends on size and complexity. "Tutorial" comes to mind for easier ones.
18:33:10 <ais523> it isn't a tutorial
18:33:14 <ehird> ais523: ideally, windows users would have to run the reactos-in-a-vm
18:33:17 <ais523> it's just one screen, 12 oxyds
18:33:22 <ais523> and a floor which makes it /very/ interesting
18:33:34 <ehird> ofc, it'd be all packed up nicely so you can just open an executable and it opens the vm and ide
18:33:49 <ehird> the general concept is making it easy to do oh-so-horrific things
18:33:56 <ais523> yes
18:33:57 <pikhq> Could possibly even run on Windows with some of the libraries replaced with WINE's.
18:34:06 <ehird> ais523: care to explain Tourism?
18:34:09 -!- Judofyr has quit ("end").
18:34:59 <ais523> ehird: if you know the classic puzzle, just experimenting a bit should make it obvious
18:35:00 <AnMaster> interesting, pressing ctrl-c in the terminal you started engima in causes it to go up one level in the menu system, same as esc in the enigma window
18:35:07 <ehird> ais523: I don't
18:35:21 <ais523> ehird: basically, you have to get the chess stone onto every single square of the level
18:35:28 <ais523> but you can't put it back to a square it's been on before
18:35:29 <ehird> that sure sounds unfun
18:35:41 <ais523> 10 isn't fun to play more than once
18:35:51 <ais523> and you probably want to work out the solution before typing it in
18:35:55 <AnMaster> ais523, stop spoling it :(
18:35:56 <ais523> I did it in under 20 minutes using Prolog
18:35:57 <ehird> typing?
18:36:01 <ais523> well, mouse-typing
18:36:04 <ais523> AnMaster: sorry
18:36:30 <ais523> anyway, you should both be able to work out what the rules of Don't Look Back are more or less trivially with a bit of experimentation
18:36:56 <ehird> rules of don't look back: if you go on a square you've already been on you freeze :-P
18:37:02 <ais523> almost
18:37:03 <AnMaster> ais523, however, those chess pieces doesn't like to move most of the time you hit them, only in about 1 of 10 cases do they actually move. Is this intentional or am I doing something wrong?
18:37:06 <ehird> ais523: wut?
18:37:07 <AnMaster> I noticed that in other levels too.
18:37:15 <ais523> AnMaster: to move them, you bounce diagonally on them
18:37:25 <AnMaster> aha
18:37:35 <ais523> ehird: you can't control the marble on a square you've been to before, but if you go in with enough momentum you come out the other side
18:37:43 <ehird> ais523: ha
18:38:20 <ehird> "why are they trying to build a brain? how about trying to figure out how to clean up all this corruption and feed the hungry"
18:38:24 <ehird> — Youtube comment
18:39:30 <pikhq> Argh, the dumb.
18:39:35 * AnMaster tries to remember the correct pattern for visit every tile once (now that ais spoiled it, though that was one of the possible solutions I were considering even before I saw that)
18:40:58 <ehird> err
18:41:04 <ehird> how is it a spoiler
18:41:07 <ais523> yay, just got a new personal record on 09
18:41:10 <ais523> 27 seconds
18:41:20 <ais523> ehird: AnMaster likes spending lots of time working out how levels work...
18:41:56 <ais523> amusingly, my time on easy on 09 is over twice my time on hard
18:41:58 <ehird> ais523: yeah nothing more enjoyable than sitting in front of a screen moving randomly until it's solved.
18:42:00 <ais523> just because I've played hard so much
18:43:00 <AnMaster> ehird, actually that won't work. Since you can't visit any tile twice, so you could make the level unfinishable by visiting them in the wrong order.
18:43:20 <ehird> AnMaster: see? more boring sitting there moving randomly
18:43:21 <ehird> happy now?
18:43:35 <AnMaster> I disagree with the word "boring" there.
18:44:21 <ais523> enigma level difficulty is classified into five categories: intelligence, dexterity, speed, knowledge, patience
18:44:29 <ehird> , amount you are similar to AnMaster
18:44:30 <ais523> as far as I can tell, AnMaster actually likes the patience levels
18:44:51 <ais523> personally, I think patience levels are just annoying
18:44:58 <ais523> I /can/ make Enigma levels larger than one screen, I just don't
18:45:54 <AnMaster> ais523, I find that rather amusing, since nethack is very much about patience (as well as intelligence, luck and several other factors)
18:46:36 <ehird> naw
18:46:39 <ehird> I wouldn't say so
18:46:44 <ehird> it's patience but not that kind of patience
18:48:12 * ais523 does Danger Flag again
18:48:20 <ais523> that's 06
18:48:24 <ais523> anyone here solve it yet?
18:48:28 <ais523> that's intelligence, speed, and dexterity
18:48:28 <ehird> ais523: i still don't get how you can do it with just the ones you have
18:48:45 <ehird> also, I find speed levels rather intolerable
18:48:50 <ais523> I'll tell you the solution if you like, but in /msg so as not to spoil it for everyone else
18:49:00 <ehird> OK
18:49:15 <ehird> I really like the meditation levels
18:50:51 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving").
18:51:45 <ais523> I like some of them, but not others
18:53:04 <ais523> what about 07, has anyone done that yet?
18:53:50 * ais523 suspects AnMaster is busy doing 10
18:54:18 <AnMaster> ais523, correct, almost done though
18:55:09 <ehird> anyone know a tiny light integrated board thing that can run linux & x11?
18:56:05 <ais523> gumstix I used for a University project
18:56:10 <ais523> it could manage that relatively easily
18:56:13 <ais523> but the hardware quality is low
18:56:17 <ais523> and ordering them from the US takes ages
18:56:19 <ehird> define hardware quality
18:56:30 <ais523> I mean, the ones we had broke, despite no abnormal use, within a few months
18:56:40 <ais523> and some were broken on arrival and had to be sent back
18:56:58 <ehird> ais523: and it could handle hooking up a screen and running x11?
18:57:23 <ehird> " motherboard schematics and design information are proprietary"
18:57:33 <ais523> yes, but you had to buy the screen separately
18:57:35 <ais523> and it was rather small
18:57:38 <ehird> " motherboard schematics and design information are proprietary"
18:57:43 <AnMaster> solved it ais523
18:57:50 <AnMaster> 8:23
18:57:55 <ais523> ehird: strange, because schematics were available
18:57:58 <ais523> AnMaster: well done
18:58:07 <ehird> ais523: only once you bought it, I guess
18:58:15 <ais523> nah, they were on one of their websites
18:58:22 <ais523> the problem is there were both gumstix.com and gumstix.org
18:58:29 <ehird> ais523: this is for a Very Insane Project
18:58:29 <ais523> which were run by the same company, but seemed to be competing anyway
18:58:37 <ais523> and all sorts of other weird inconsistencies
18:58:51 <AnMaster> ais523, it isn't hard really, you just need to plan ahead so the game doesn't become unfinishable.
18:59:04 <ehird> actually, I'm doubting myself, even
18:59:05 <AnMaster> and be careful so you don't hit it the wrong way
18:59:24 <ehird> also, totally superfluous
18:59:33 <ehird> i have zero need for it
18:59:44 <ais523> I mean, one site would often say something was unavailable, and the other would have it
18:59:45 <ais523> or whatever
18:59:53 <AnMaster> ais523, are blocks random in 9?
18:59:56 <ais523> there were also two contradictory and entirely different ways of how to build the things
19:00:00 <AnMaster> if so, is it really always finishable?
19:00:01 <ais523> AnMaster: yep, random oxyds
19:00:03 <ais523> and yes, it is
19:00:05 <AnMaster> hm
19:00:23 <ehird> ais523: so, would you recommend these stix of gum
19:00:23 <ais523> as I said earlier, fl-acwhite doesn't completely stop black marbles
19:00:37 <ais523> ehird: not really, especially if you don't live in the US
19:00:49 <ehird> ais523: darn
19:00:50 <ais523> they do arrive eventually, and they do work for a while
19:00:51 <ehird> what would you recommend instead
19:01:02 <ais523> well, apparently blackfin's a major competitor to them
19:01:15 <ais523> and I haven't heard anything bad about them, but I've never used them either
19:01:16 <ais523> might be worth looking into
19:01:28 <ehird> I suppose it depends on what I'm doing
19:01:30 <ehird> :P
19:01:38 <AnMaster> ais523, 09 is one of those levels where you miss "restore to previous snapshot" often found in zsnes and other such emulators. ;)
19:01:55 <ehird> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackfin doesn't seem "complete"
19:02:00 <ais523> AnMaster: run it in easy mode, then
19:02:01 <ehird> how much do gumstix cost
19:02:02 <AnMaster> <ais523> as I said earlier, fl-acwhite doesn't completely stop black marbles <-- really?
19:02:17 <ais523> AnMaster: no, they have zero mouseforce, but not infinite friction
19:02:25 <ais523> go into that floor fast enough, and you come out the other side
19:02:35 <ehird> ais523: do you know?
19:02:35 <ais523> that's just basic Enigma knowledge, how did you not know that?
19:02:39 <ais523> ehird: I did once
19:02:41 <ais523> but I've forgotten
19:02:46 <ais523> I may be able to find my old notes, though
19:02:48 <ehird> ais523: guess he doesn't know how it works internally
19:02:50 <ehird> like emacs!
19:02:51 <ehird> hur hur hur
19:03:00 <ais523> AnMaster: have you ever read the Enigma manual?
19:03:08 <ais523> you should, half the game is a lot easier if you know how it works
19:03:16 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, when I first tried it
19:03:24 <AnMaster> wasn't much of a manual iirc.
19:03:30 <AnMaster> and yes it was ages ago
19:03:44 <ais523> well, you should at least know from experimentation that no floor stops you instantly
19:03:57 <AnMaster> engima 0.90 or something like that, maybe 0.92
19:04:16 <AnMaster> ais523, I usually go slow because I suck at mouse handling at high speed.
19:04:34 <AnMaster> but yes not instantly indeed.
19:04:56 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, that level, is it always possible to solve without going very fast?
19:05:01 <ehird> ais523: my insane project would be "trying to make my own smartphone"
19:05:15 <ehird> which is why I wanted a tiny light board that can run linux & x11
19:05:15 <ais523> AnMaster: I'd say yes, moving the marble fast enough to go two squares at once is not "very fast"
19:05:27 <ehird> although I'm not certain how you hook the actual phoney phone stuff up
19:05:50 <AnMaster> ais523, what if you drop "very" then?
19:06:00 <ais523> it's easiest to do playing slowly
19:06:28 <ais523> after all, if you have the mouseforce set to a sane value rather than 2 or 3, you hardly need to move the mouse in order to skid two squares rather than one
19:07:03 <ais523> it would be very disappointing if you missed out on the 70% or 80% of Enigma levels which require the ability to move multiple squares at a time...
19:07:14 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the difference between easy and hard on that level apart from the first tile not being a different type compared to the rest of the floor?
19:07:25 <ais523> there isn't one
19:07:27 <ais523> except:
19:07:36 <ais523> if the first tile is different, that means pressing f3 lets you go back to it
19:07:40 <ais523> so you get three chances at the level
19:07:54 <ais523> if the first tile isn't different, pressing f3 is fatal, because you'd just land back on a square you couldn't move on
19:07:56 <AnMaster> ah that makes sense
19:08:01 <ais523> so it's the difference between one chance and three chances
19:08:28 <ais523> http://code.google.com/p/cadie/source/browse/trunk/CADIE.I <--- that's better
19:08:29 <ehird> hrm
19:08:38 <ehird> wow
19:08:40 <ehird> ais523: you got commit access?
19:09:50 <ais523> yes
19:09:55 <ehird> ais523: awesome
19:10:25 <ais523> now to test J-INTERCAL on it
19:10:41 <AnMaster> ok solved 09
19:11:16 <ais523> AnMaster: how fast, btw?
19:11:23 <AnMaster> 2:01
19:11:35 <AnMaster> on easy but didn't use f3
19:11:44 <ehird> dododood
19:12:16 <AnMaster> ais523, and I was brute forcing randomness of the first two I hit (restarting level until they were same colour. I did end up needing to cross white once only
19:12:27 <AnMaster> so mostly by luck
19:13:54 <AnMaster> anyway the name "tourism" made it rather clear what the level was about. So I wonder why ehird didn't manage to figure it out himself...
19:15:02 <AnMaster> sure a bit of thought yes, but after noticing visited tiles were covered by marble passable tiles, the correct solution was the only one left.
19:15:23 <ais523> AnMaster: maybe ehird's never heard of the Knight's Tour?
19:15:42 <AnMaster> ais523, well that could explain it indeed.
19:15:45 <AnMaster> well,*
19:16:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:16:51 <AnMaster> ais523, how are those intelligence, dexterity, speed, ... ratings made?
19:16:59 <ehird> a unicorn
19:17:02 <ehird> it decides all the rating
19:17:02 <ehird> s
19:17:07 <ehird> they just ask it
19:17:10 <ehird> and it gives them the ratings
19:17:15 <ehird> very helpful that unicorn
19:17:24 <ais523> AnMaster: they're determined by the maintainers and public opinion, I think
19:17:32 <ais523> but there are relatively objective guidelines for deciding the
19:17:33 <AnMaster> ais523, ah
19:17:34 <ais523> *them
19:19:29 <AnMaster> ais523, do you like the level "In Sync" (enigma III #83)?
19:20:36 <ais523> no
19:20:47 <AnMaster> ais523, and another question: What exactly do the knowledge rating mean. Knowledge of game mechanics? Knowledge of how to solve the level (requiring trial and error to figure out right way)? Or something else?
19:20:55 <ais523> knowledge of game mechanics
19:21:04 <ais523> knowledge is completely objective, and depends on just which mechanics are in your level
19:21:05 * AnMaster rather liked In Sync
19:21:14 <AnMaster> not the best one, but rather interesting
19:21:54 <ais523> so something like my 09, or III/26, has knowledge 6 due to having unique mechanics of its own
19:22:06 <ais523> knowledge 5 means you're exploiting really obscure behaviour of the core
19:22:13 <ais523> like spring over laser, or chess stone on swamp
19:22:34 <AnMaster> what does chess stone on swap do?
19:22:53 <ehird> I wonder where you can buy touchscreens
19:23:30 <ais523> AnMaster: sinks gradually
19:23:54 <ais523> knowledge 4 is for obscure or misleading things that don't involve interactions, like fake abyss or coffee stones
19:24:03 <AnMaster> ais523, ok that isn't too surprising, considering that is what marbles do too
19:24:17 <ais523> 3 is the typical knowledge level, the advanced tutorial hits most of the limits of knowledge 3
19:24:27 <AnMaster> coffee stone? I thought it was an object
19:24:29 <ais523> 1 is only for really obvious things, like death stones
19:24:33 <ais523> AnMaster: it's an item and a stone
19:24:43 <AnMaster> huh ok
19:24:44 <ais523> coffee stones are opaque and fixed, but turn transparent and movable if you hit them
19:24:52 <ais523> and both states are disguised as something else
19:24:57 <ais523> I'm not sure if they were ever used
19:24:58 <ehird> anyone know?
19:24:58 <oerjan> 12:31 < ais523> instead of naming the new module after him, they went and called their newest treadmill the Combined Operational Load Bearing External Resistance Treadmill
19:25:06 <AnMaster> ais523, why are they named coffee stones?
19:25:13 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know
19:25:19 <oerjan> now if he had just had a name ending with M, he'd have been all set
19:25:33 <ehird> Colbertum
19:26:55 <ehird> hrrrrrrrrrm
19:27:35 <AnMaster> <oerjan> 12:31 < ais523> instead of naming the new module after him, they went and called their newest treadmill the Combined Operational Load Bearing External Resistance Treadmill <-- context? it doesn't seem to be from 12:31 today (Checked Norwegian timezone and UTC)
19:28:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: kerlo's logs, see topic
19:28:28 <oerjan> *aka ihope
19:28:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, but which timezone is it?
19:28:46 <ehird> AnMaster: u s of a
19:28:56 <ehird> just like clog's
19:29:01 <ehird> (mayitrestinpeace)
19:29:09 <AnMaster> ehird, US west cost and east cost are in different timezones
19:29:16 <ehird> w/e
19:29:18 <AnMaster> also why is clog down?
19:29:20 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
19:29:23 <ehird> because it is, AnMaster
19:29:38 <ehird> i'd contact the server admin, only I don't know who that is.
19:29:42 <ehird> I'll ask #tunes
19:29:49 <AnMaster> translated: reason unknown?
19:30:07 <ehird> AnMaster: it crashed and nobody restarted it
19:30:16 -!- neldoreth has joined.
19:30:38 <AnMaster> <ais523> ah, NASA came up with an interesting solution to the whole Colbert thing <-- so what is this Colbert thing then.
19:30:50 <AnMaster> context didn't really explain it in this case to me.
19:31:04 <ehird> >_<
19:31:07 <ehird> AnMaster: just give it up
19:31:08 <ehird> it's not important
19:31:16 <ehird> tl;dr people voted Colbert, as in stephen colbert
19:31:20 <ehird> for the name of a new nasa module
19:31:21 <Slereah_> The thing is that Colbert is trying to name everything after him
19:31:28 <ehird> nasa didn't like that, because colbert does this all the time
19:31:33 <ehird> so they got around it with an acronym
19:31:44 <oerjan> um that's not getting around it
19:31:53 <ehird> sure it is :P
19:31:56 <AnMaster> ah that thing
19:31:59 <oerjan> they'd probably have made a backronym regardless, don't you think
19:32:06 <ehird> AnMaster: if you want to ask who stephen colbert is, google.com
19:32:07 <AnMaster> ehird, "tl;dr"?
19:32:17 <ais523> someone said that it was Colbert's job to exploit bugs in buggy public processes
19:32:18 <ehird> oerjan: for "Glider" or "Elegance" or whatever they were offering?
19:32:18 <ehird> naw.
19:32:25 * oerjan hits AnMaster with the saucepan ====\___/
19:32:29 <ehird> <AnMaster> too lazy; didn't google
19:32:30 <AnMaster> ehird, the name does sound familiar.. hm... Comedy central or something iirc?
19:32:36 <ehird> AnMaster: yes.
19:32:40 <ehird> colbert report. satirical news show.
19:33:36 <oerjan> ais523: btw did you notice/did anyone paste here the reddit about the Times' top 100 list voting?
19:33:37 <AnMaster> <ehird> <AnMaster> too lazy; didn't google <-- from when would that be?
19:33:46 <oerjan> *reddited link
19:33:50 <ehird> AnMaster: when you asked what "tl;dr" meant
19:33:55 <oerjan> er, *Time
19:35:13 <AnMaster> ehird, You were quoting me saying that. Did I ever say it? I don't think so. But if you could provide timestamp?
19:35:23 <ehird> AnMaster: Whoooooooooosh!
19:35:28 <ehird> <tornado>
19:35:44 <M0ny> ahhh !!!
19:36:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I guess that translates to that I never said it indeed.
19:36:44 <oerjan> http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1883644_1886141,00.html
19:36:54 <ais523> hahaha: someone on Reddit said that the easy way to get Reddit markdown working properly was to go over to stackoverflow and preview the comment there, then copy the markdown back to reddit and paste it
19:37:32 <AnMaster> ais523, so reddit doesn't have a preview function?
19:37:41 <ais523> apparently not, based on that
19:37:48 <ais523> I don't know, I don't have a username
19:37:48 <oerjan> (hint, look at the initial letters)
19:37:59 <ais523> reddit people go on about how it has a low barrier to entry, but it's higher than Slashdot's or Wikipedia's
19:38:02 <ais523> and also requires JS
19:38:06 <ehird> #1 moot
19:38:09 <ehird> oh 4chan <3
19:38:49 <ehird> marblecakealsothegame
19:38:52 <ehird> I see.
19:39:50 <ehird> ooh they have a video
19:41:40 <ehird> http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1883644_1889408_1889412,00.html
19:41:45 <ehird> MOOT VS RAIN
19:41:48 <ehird> WEATHER, OR PERSON?
19:41:50 <ehird> YOU DECIDE.
19:42:43 <Gracenotes> D:
19:44:15 <ais523> why the sad smiley?
19:44:45 <ehird> ais523: know any common small screen sizes?
19:44:54 <ehird> resolutions
19:44:56 <AnMaster> um
19:45:03 <AnMaster> just a huge "page requires flash"
19:45:11 <ehird> AnMaster: I wonder why that may be.
19:45:20 <ehird> Let me think. Oh, I know.
19:45:20 <Gracenotes> oops, sorry.
19:45:23 <ais523> ehird: 320*240 is /very/ common
19:45:23 <ehird> It's because it requires flash.
19:45:29 <AnMaster> both for http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1883644_1889408_1889412,00.html and <oerjan> http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1883644_1886141,00.html
19:45:39 <ehird> ais523: it's a bit square for a candybar-style phone
19:45:53 <ehird> AnMaster: If you enabled Flash, you'd get a video. If not, your loss.
19:46:14 <ais523> ehird: ah, yes, phone screens are generally even smaller
19:46:31 <ehird> ais523: nah, not touchscreens
19:46:49 <ehird> the iphone is 480x320 @ 3.5i
19:46:54 <ehird> *in
19:47:14 <ehird> the G1 is the same res @ 3.2in
19:47:26 <ehird> so I guess 480x320 is the done thing
19:47:35 <ehird> swap those for horizontal mode ofc
19:47:41 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, had you never heard of knight's tour before ais mentioned it today?
19:47:50 <ehird> AnMaster: it rings a bell
19:48:02 <AnMaster> hm
19:48:27 <AnMaster> then odd you couldn't figure out that Tourism level...
19:48:47 -!- olsner has joined.
19:50:32 <ehird> wonder how much a 3.x in 480x320 touchscreen costs.
19:53:13 <Gracenotes> really, the Time acrostic ordering... blows my mind.. >_>
19:54:07 <ehird> Is XP antivirus 2009 compatible with Vista?
19:54:07 <ehird> I got a new computer running windows Vista but I already paid for XP antivirus 2009 on my old computer.Will I be able to transfer it to my new one or is only compatible with windows XP?
19:54:09 <ehird> 5 months ago
19:54:11 <ehird> Additional Details
19:54:13 <ehird> I have paid $50 for that program and I'm going to use it if I can.
19:54:15 <ehird> 5 months ago
19:54:17 <ehird> Can you also give me the link to re download it because they didn't send me a CD
19:54:19 <ehird> 5 months ago
19:54:21 <ehird> please help me I google it but all I can find is remove instructions not the likn to download it. help I'm losing my $50
19:54:24 <ehird> 5 months ago
19:54:26 <ehird> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081130123314AAe3klv
19:54:53 <ais523> were there any sensible answers?
19:55:01 <ehird> ais523: all of them
19:55:03 <ehird> but the asker didn't listen
19:55:04 <ais523> "Well,since you insist to use it,yes all trojan and viruses are compatible with all windows platforms."
19:55:11 <ehird> factually false, amusingly
19:55:17 <Gracenotes> heh.
19:55:18 <ehird> but close enough
19:55:26 <Gracenotes> yes, I'd like to see some 64-bit viruses!
19:55:33 <ais523> I'm slightly surprised that was chosen as best
19:55:39 <ais523> Gracenotes: I'm sure there are some by now, surely?
19:55:44 <ehird> ais523: it said it was compatible, see the author's note
19:55:47 <ehird> which is "help"
19:55:48 <ais523> Vista x64 is probably a bigger install base than Linux
19:55:55 <Gracenotes> oh, possibly. It is a reasonable market
19:56:04 <Gracenotes> ais523: well.. for PCs anyway
19:56:12 <ais523> yes, I mean on desktop computers
19:56:12 <ehird> 19:54 slava has joined (n=slava@li13-154.members.linode.com)
19:56:12 <ehird> 19:54 slava: any news about clog?
19:56:28 <ehird> Even Slava Pestov is hurt by the drastic clog outage!
19:57:17 <ais523> who's slava?
19:57:40 <ehird> ais523: Slava Pestov, author of jedit and the Factor stack language
19:58:22 <ais523> ah
19:58:37 <ehird> anyone know any free-as-in-tibet non-dejavu/bitstream-vera fonts?
19:58:39 <AnMaster> ais523, I would give Tourism a rating of 10 btw. :)
19:59:07 <ais523> AnMaster: you mean you liked it?
19:59:12 <AnMaster> indeed
19:59:21 <AnMaster> ais523, do you plan to submit these levels for inclusion in future engima versions?
19:59:28 <AnMaster> (if that is how it works?)
20:00:00 <ais523> AnMaster: maybe some of them; I haven't looked up the process
20:00:24 <ais523> hmm... http://www.nongnu.org/enigma/
20:00:27 <ais523> interesting domain name
20:00:31 <oerjan> ehird: you mean a font that isn't really a subset of CJK, but which will have you beaten up by the chinese if you claim so?
20:00:32 <ais523> which I vaguely recognise
20:00:49 <ehird> oerjan: :-)
20:00:56 <ehird> ais523: Svannah.
20:00:59 <ehird> *Savannah.
20:01:06 <ehird> A shit sourceforge ripoff started because sf wasn't open soucre
20:01:10 <ehird> *source
20:01:15 <ehird> It has many qualities, including being shit.
20:01:40 <oerjan> excreme programming
20:03:55 <ehird> "Eliezer fancies himself as a thinker for the morality of the future, but his vision of morality is the ancient rotting cadaver of collectivist egalitarian altruistic utilitarianism, as inculcated to him by his judeo-christian upbringing (judeo in this case)." — François-René Rideau, founder of the TUNES project
20:03:58 <ehird> I have only a few words
20:04:37 * oerjan guesses rideau is a libertarian
20:04:43 <ehird> oerjan: very.
20:04:50 <oerjan> which i vaguely recall too
20:04:56 <ehird> IIIIIIIIINCULATED
20:04:59 <ehird> no wait, inculcated
20:05:03 <ehird> too many cs.
20:05:44 <oerjan> basically rideau doesn't understand that if a AGI were libertarian, we would ALL DIE
20:06:05 <ehird> oerjan: Amended General Idiot?
20:06:16 <oerjan> artificial general intelligence
20:06:22 <oerjan> *an
20:06:27 <ehird> but of course
20:06:56 <oerjan> i believe yudkowsky uses that term
20:07:03 <ehird> "Eliezer is brilliant but I agree he is not selfish enough. Good job taking him on."
20:07:09 <ehird> no, you can't have any sweets.
20:07:13 <ehird> no, I'm not going to eat them
20:07:14 <ehird> *push*
20:07:18 <ehird> i didn't push you.
20:07:25 <ehird> he started it!
20:08:32 <oerjan> i suppose one _could_ create an AGI to enforce libertarianism, though.
20:09:15 <ehird> brb.
20:09:17 <oerjan> i don't know enough about libertarianism to know if that would be truly paradoxical
20:10:06 -!- Dewi has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:11:03 * oerjan ponders the possibility that maybe he is the only person in the universe. not because of solipsism, but because i once was a selfish libertarian creating an AI
20:11:42 <oerjan> actually no, i would have had to be a masochist too
20:15:39 <ais523> oerjan: that would be really quite interesting
20:15:46 <ais523> have you ever considered that you may be a simulation of yourself?
20:16:03 <ais523> as in, of someone who exists, and in fact programmed you to be the same as them?
20:16:10 <oerjan> um wait, recursively?
20:20:38 <oerjan> i don't think i could be the same as anyone who _would_ do such a thing
20:21:03 <oerjan> re the masochist part
20:21:29 <oerjan> unless of course my morals go strongly downhill in the future
20:21:37 <ais523> hahaha: http://www.mag-heut.net/blackball/index.php?act=ST&f=9&t=1131&s=85d3bb14b8ff01e0ef75f19c7206463d
20:26:52 <oerjan> 13:24 < ais523> as Google says, INTERCAL has become best known for a feature that wasn't even in the original
20:27:00 <oerjan> a bit like haskell and monads
20:27:08 <ais523> wow, they weren't in original haskell?
20:27:10 <ais523> how did it do I/O?
20:27:23 <oerjan> nope, it used command streams
20:27:51 <oerjan> with a continuation library wrapping it for sanity, i think
20:28:35 <oerjan> a program was a function that took a stream of results as input and returned a stream of requests
20:28:50 <oerjan> (and yes, that's not swapped)
20:29:23 <Deewiant> Wasn't it just main :: [String] -> String -> String originally
20:29:30 <oerjan> using the underlying streams directly had frequent deadlock problems
20:29:32 <Deewiant> I.e. args -> stdin -> stdout
20:29:42 <ais523> oerjan: that's brilliant, it's the solution Thutu uses to the same problem
20:29:43 <oerjan> Deewiant: no
20:30:00 <ais523> the interesting thing about Thutu using that solution, of course, is that as a strict language there's an utterly obvious solution but it didn't use it
20:30:01 <Deewiant> Hmm, wonder where I got that from
20:30:21 <oerjan> Deewiant: the interact function does that today
20:30:27 <Deewiant> Yes, I know
20:30:30 <Deewiant> Minus the command line args
20:30:37 <Deewiant> (Of course)
20:30:39 <oerjan> but that can only do a single stdin -> stdout
20:30:53 <Deewiant> Yes, I don't think there's an hInteract
20:31:22 <oerjan> Deewiant: well you can obviously build one with hGetContents
20:31:33 <Deewiant> Sure, the primitives are all there
20:32:09 -!- neldoret1 has joined.
20:32:33 <oerjan> unless there was a haskell version that couldn't do file IO at all
20:35:07 <Deewiant> I think there was
20:35:15 <Deewiant> But it's possible I'm wrong
20:35:37 * oerjan found http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~dons/haskell-1990-2006/msg01089.html but that's too late
20:35:56 <oerjan> although historically interesting
20:37:58 <Deewiant> "Thus in the Haskell 1.0 Report, we first defined I/O in terms of streams, but also included a completely equivalent design based on continuations."
20:39:03 <oerjan> heh, i just found that myself
20:39:09 <Deewiant> (http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/history-of-haskell/)
20:48:48 -!- neldoreth has quit (No route to host).
20:51:34 <ais523> hmm... it seems that the way for a website owner to opt out of Phorm is to block Google and Yahoo in their robots.txt
20:51:43 <ais523> I don't exactly call that a sensible way to opt-out...
20:51:55 <ais523> as in, their opt-out code is exactly the same code that blocks google and yahoo
21:06:11 <ehird> ais523: ah, good ol Phorm.
21:06:12 <ehird> not.
21:06:31 * ehird switching to an isp whose co-founder has explicitly referenced phorm negatively on a mailing list :P
21:06:46 * AnMaster spent some time sending abuse@ emails today. Got sick of all spam.
21:07:01 <ehird> AnMaster: congrats, you wasted a bunch of time.
21:07:03 <AnMaster> well spambots, not email spam.
21:07:15 <ais523> even more amusingly, it's not just looking at * rules
21:07:16 <AnMaster> so I do know the ip it came from
21:07:24 <ais523> but specifically for Googlebot and Slurp if there isn't a * rule
21:07:41 <ais523> their reasoning, apparently, is that a website owner is happy with their data being harvested if they're letting search engines look at it
21:07:44 <AnMaster> since you can't fake that when connecting to irc and the server is set up to require a matching PONG before allowing connection.
21:09:07 <ais523> also, even if you opt-out as a visitor (using cookies), every single web page request you make is redirected twice
21:09:13 <ais523> it can be up to three times if you don't opt out
21:09:32 <AnMaster> ehird, one of the IPs seems to be allocated to cogent themselves. I somehow suspect they won't take that lightly if one of their own computers is infected.
21:09:43 <AnMaster> so I have some hopes of results in that case.
21:10:04 <ehird> AnMaster: you gaping chasm reality
21:10:12 <ais523> some people do care about abuse@
21:10:28 <ais523> in fact, sufficiently few people bother to try it nowadays that I wouldn't be surprised if large ISPs could handle the load easily
21:10:58 <AnMaster> well I would assume it since it is listed as allocated to Cogent Communications directly. Their main office specifically.
21:11:11 <ehird> I highly doubt it's true AnMaster
21:11:30 <AnMaster> ehird, Are you saying the whois result is faked?
21:11:35 <AnMaster> on the IP I mean
21:11:45 <ehird> I'm saying I doubt a cogent hq system is spamming
21:11:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it was an automated trojan software
21:12:14 <AnMaster> considering there were loads with the same message from many different IPs and ISPs
21:12:20 <ehird> as opposed to a manual trojan, AnMaster?
21:12:34 <AnMaster> ehird, as opposed to a single person typing it manually
21:12:35 <ehird> "Please POST to this address with this contents: 'cheap viagra'"
21:12:39 <ehird> no shit
21:14:27 <ais523> wtf?
21:14:37 <ais523> I interpret that POST as referring to snail mail, not the HTTP request
21:14:43 <ais523> but it's pretty WTFy both ways
21:15:23 <AnMaster> and it was spambots spamming download links containing trojans, nothing about viagra there.
21:18:45 <AnMaster> ais523, and why do people not use abuse@ more often I wonder.
21:19:25 <ais523> AnMaster: because abuse@ is based on the way the Internet is meant to work, not on the way it does work
21:19:56 <AnMaster> ais523, well true, some whois replies list other emails such as anti_spam@ instead.
21:20:07 <ais523> no, you're missing the point
21:20:19 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure if there's any way to explain what the point is to you, though
21:20:20 <AnMaster> ais523, probably, but remember I'm an idealist(sp?)
21:20:23 <ais523> in this case
21:20:25 <ehird> 21:18 AnMaster: ais523, and why do people not use abuse@ more often I wonder.
21:20:25 <ehird> 21:19 ais523: AnMaster: because abuse@ is based on the way the Internet is meant to work, not on the way it does work
21:20:28 <ehird> 21:19 AnMaster: ais523, well true, some whois replies list other emails such as anti_spam@ instead.
21:20:31 <ehird> XD
21:20:36 <ehird> that's the most concise description of AnMaster yet
21:21:11 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean that most people simply gave up because the ISPs didn't care?
21:21:27 <AnMaster> or something like that I
21:21:29 <AnMaster> I guess*
21:21:31 <ais523> well, and the sheer volume of abuse@ things which would have to be sent
21:21:51 <ais523> think about it this way: something like 90% of email is spam
21:22:09 <AnMaster> ais523, well indeed, and then there is spambots on irc too (which this case was about)
21:22:18 <ais523> which means that if each spam had a corresponding abuse@, then email would be 9:9:1 spam:abuse:legitimate
21:22:19 <AnMaster> and on IM and so on
21:22:26 <ais523> nobody could handle that workload
21:22:43 <AnMaster> ais523, probably a lot would be for the same IP though
21:22:51 <AnMaster> or sender
21:23:46 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway the largest issue is faked senders for email. An issue which doesn't exist when figuring out the IPs for spambots on irc. Or the registrar of the domain they spammed (which contained a trojan)
21:25:24 <ehird> New features in this release include:
21:25:25 <ehird> * Ported to all major Lisp systems
21:25:27 <ehird> wow
21:25:31 <ehird> yale haskell was written in lisp
21:25:34 <ehird> circa 1993
21:26:28 -!- neldoreth has joined.
21:26:48 -!- neldoret1 has quit (Client Quit).
21:28:37 -!- jix has joined.
21:29:08 <ehird> To run this release, you need a Sun4 or Sun3, probably with 16+MB
21:29:08 <ehird> memory, and GNU C (gcc), version 2.1 or greater, and "perl".
21:30:04 <AnMaster> ehird, sounds sane for an old software?
21:30:24 * AnMaster wonders why ehird pasted that
21:31:42 <ais523> it seems pretty old
21:31:43 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
21:31:52 <ais523> also, requiring specifically a Sun?
21:32:03 <ais523> also, it's /decades/ since people wrote the name of Perl in quotes
21:32:25 <AnMaster> ais523, well that was a bit strange, why would anyone use quotes for it
21:32:31 <ais523> name of the executable
21:32:34 <ais523> like "cat", or "grep"
21:33:06 <AnMaster> ais523, that doesn't really explain it though. Since it is the name of the software as well as the executable.
21:33:13 <AnMaster> thought that would have been Perl
21:33:17 <ehird> ais523: well, 1993
21:33:23 <AnMaster> rather than "perl"
21:33:27 <ehird> "perl" it really sounds like they don't know what it is
21:33:34 <ehird> you need this "perl" thing if you've heard of i
21:33:35 <ehird> t
21:34:53 <ehird> * GHC provides an extensible I/O system, based on a "monad" [1]. (The
21:34:53 <ehird> standard Haskell I/O system is built on this foundation.)
21:35:02 <ehird> - Ability to write arbitrary in-line C-language code, using
21:35:02 <ehird> the I/O monad to retain referential transparency.
21:35:04 <ehird> WUT
21:35:22 <GregorR> Huh
21:35:32 <GregorR> Presumably you can write C code which will act as an I/O monad.
21:35:52 <ehird> GregorR: I assume it was something like ghcMagicC :: String -> IO ()
21:36:21 <GregorR> I've never heard of it, but I was assuming it would be built into the grammar and that the C code could be * -> IO (*)
21:37:36 <ehird> Main shortcomings
21:37:36 <ehird> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
21:37:38 <ehird> * No interactive system. This is a batch compiler only. (Any
21:37:40 <ehird> volunteers?)
21:37:43 <ehird> [...]
21:37:44 <ehird> * This system should run on any Unix box. We haven't had time to do
21:37:46 <ehird> any non-Sun ports. Help or prodding welcome.
21:37:55 <GregorR> lol
21:38:04 <ehird> it's like a time machine
21:39:09 <ehird> http://www.mag-heut.net/blackball/index.php?act=ST&f=9&t=1131&s=85d3bb14b8ff01e0ef75f19c7206463d
21:39:22 <ehird> oh
21:39:24 <ehird> ais523 linked it
21:39:29 <ehird> I was wondering where it came from
21:40:13 <ehird> Hmm ... okay, so my message was quite obviously an April (or March)
21:40:14 <ehird> Fool's Day joke, wasn't it? Of course there is no such bug as a timing
21:40:15 <ehird> disaster in Enigma ... at least not yet! ;)
21:40:17 <ehird> lame!
21:40:21 <ehird> ais523: i thought it was true :(
21:40:26 <ais523> so did I, to start with
21:40:32 <ais523> it was a pretty good april fools bug report
21:40:39 <ais523> especially as it had a plausible reason for being on april 1
21:40:39 <ehird> I guess because I'm the kind of person to implant that
21:41:09 <ehird> ais523: heh, seen enigma VI #10?
21:41:57 <ais523> yes
21:42:01 <ais523> I don't know how it's done, though
21:42:54 <ehird> #15 is awesome
21:44:35 <ais523> really?
21:44:38 -!- neldoreth has quit ("Lost terminal").
21:44:43 <ais523> it struck me as relatively clever, but mildly annoying
21:44:50 <ehird> ofc
21:45:05 <ais523> I'm not a fan of annoying levels
21:46:36 <ehird> ais523: what do you think of #35
21:46:43 <ais523> what do you think of oxyd #45?
21:46:45 <ais523> it's one of my favourites
21:47:03 <ehird> ais523: aieeeeeeeeee
21:47:15 <ais523> and #35, I haven't figured yet
21:47:17 -!- neldoreth has joined.
21:47:24 <ais523> although I suspect it involves an umbrella
21:48:28 <ais523> why the aieee, anyway?
21:48:33 <ais523> it's a nice clever intelligence level
21:48:50 <ais523> also, I love apparently more or less symmetrical puzzles with very asymmetrical solutions
21:49:03 <oerjan> ehird probably thinks it's acheived self-awareness
21:49:12 <oerjan> *achieved
21:49:23 <lament> ehird achieved self-awareness?
21:49:31 <GregorR> Don't be silly.
21:49:35 <ehird> ouch
21:49:44 <oerjan> no silly, the intelligence level
21:49:51 <ehird> http://improveverywhere.com/2009/04/01/best-funeral-ever/
21:50:42 -!- neldoreth has quit (Client Quit).
21:52:15 <AnMaster> <ais523> what do you think of oxyd #45? <-- "Letter bomb"?
21:52:19 <ais523> yes
21:52:23 <ehird> no the other oxyd 45
21:52:24 * AnMaster tries it
21:53:13 -!- neldoreth has joined.
21:53:14 <AnMaster> ehird, well it was a valid question because: #33: Oxyd 79
21:53:27 <ehird> ...wut?
21:53:29 <AnMaster> so there could have been a Oxyd 45
21:53:31 <ehird> ah.
21:53:37 <AnMaster> with a different number
21:53:41 <ais523> that's why I added the #
21:54:19 <AnMaster> ais523, wasn't aware that was the reason for the #
21:55:09 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:58:35 <AnMaster> ais523, hm.. about that letter bomb... Knowledge 5 I see
21:58:43 <AnMaster> and I have no idea about how it would work
21:58:56 <AnMaster> what sort of thing in the game mechanics is it exploiting?
21:59:55 <ais523> explosions destroy items
21:59:58 <ais523> and pipes are an ite
21:59:59 <ais523> *item
22:00:09 <ais523> 5 is for unusual interactoins between multiple items
22:00:13 <ais523> and I don't think that one's used very often
22:00:26 <AnMaster> hm
22:00:34 <ais523> it is explained in a document on the level, though, so that isn't even a spoiler
22:01:53 <AnMaster> even so I don't see how this would help you reach any of the stones.
22:02:17 <ais523> well, wooden block bridging over abyss is a very well known interaction
22:02:23 <AnMaster> indeed
22:02:42 <AnMaster> but afaik you can't destroy walls with explosions
22:02:56 <ais523> you can destroy black bomb dispensers with bomb explosions
22:03:08 <AnMaster> is it an item? huh
22:10:12 <FireFly> "Categories: Joke languages | Implemented | Unimplemented | 2008"
22:10:33 <ehird> :D
22:10:34 <ehird> link
22:10:51 <FireFly> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Schrodilang
22:11:08 * ehird groans
22:11:24 <FireFly> Since the only interpreter is supposedly at the bottom of a sea, it's hard to tell if it exists or not
22:11:30 <FireFly> I guess
22:11:33 <ehird> FireFly: no, it's the radioactive decay thing
22:11:40 <ehird> the joke is that s/cat/implementation floppy/
22:11:43 <ehird> s/poison/magnet/
22:11:52 <FireFly> ..ah
22:11:55 <AnMaster> hm I would have expected oerjan behind that
22:11:57 <ehird> it should be
22:12:04 <olsner> "it's hard to tell if it exists or not" indeed
22:12:04 <AnMaster> rather than GregorR
22:12:10 <ehird> {{randomize|[[Category:Implemented]]|[[Category:Unimplemented]}}
22:12:10 <olsner> that's the whole point I think :P
22:12:11 <AnMaster> which is what the history tab says
22:12:33 <FireFly> That makes sense, isn't Schrödlingers Cat an experiment about something being in multiple states at the same time?
22:12:45 <FireFly> E.g. interpreted and not interpreted at the same time
22:12:51 <ehird> >_<
22:12:57 <ehird> FireFly: go google it before I whack you with a cluebat
22:12:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't think that would work, even if mediawiki had such a macro (does it?). Since it stores category list at edit time iirc.
22:13:06 <FireFly> :(
22:13:54 <olsner> maybe you could add a blurb about the categorization of that page being in dispute since it is not possible to determine which state the language falls under
22:15:13 <ehird> 22:14 cristi_ceata: Cale: have you read "Yet another haskell tutorial"?
22:17:18 <ais523> was there a stupid reply to that?
22:17:35 <ehird> ais523: do you know who Cale is?
22:17:38 -!- Hiato has joined.
22:17:40 <ais523> no
22:17:51 <ehird> ais523: he runs lambdabot :-)
22:17:58 <ais523> heh
22:18:03 <ais523> well, /has/ he read yaht?
22:18:11 <ehird> I think it's bloody well likely! :-P
22:18:13 <ais523> it's entirely plausible you could get good at Haskell some other way
22:18:25 <ehird> well, back then the only other tutorial was... gentle introduction?
22:18:27 <ais523> and never need to read a tutorial after that
22:18:31 <ehird> which is useful to, uh, hardcore ML programmers.
22:18:35 <ais523> there must have been at least two
22:18:38 <ais523> or the name is incorrect
22:18:51 <ehird> ais523: it was implied in a sense of "do you know <trivial thing from yaht>"
22:21:32 * oerjan thinks they should have sneaked in a c before that h
22:23:54 * oerjan notices FireFly just deserved a swat -----###
22:24:52 <ehird> ais523: haha, wow, #tunes is full of info atm
22:25:02 <ehird> they're disillusioned with how badly the server's been run...
22:25:03 <FireFly> No problem
22:25:05 <ehird> since BEFORE 2000!
22:25:42 <oerjan> and still no one's managed to get clog back?
22:25:58 <ehird> oerjan: he pinged hcf/nef, I told him it's not nef's responsibility any more, now he's pinging root
22:26:07 <ehird> who I guess is faré or someone
22:26:24 <ehird> and I suppose he'll tell us to stop being collectivist pigs and capatalize a server
22:26:27 <ehird> *capitalize
22:27:06 <oerjan> *OINK*
22:28:06 <ehird> 22:27 BrianRice: TUNES really doesn't matter as an OS, anyway. not without the higher level bits which require heavy duty CS research (which is slowly coming together)v
22:28:09 * ehird yawns
22:28:47 <ais523> the operating system needs heavy duty CS research before they can write it?
22:28:49 <ais523> what is TUNES like?
22:29:01 <ehird> ais523: very, very dissatisfied.
22:29:22 <ehird> also, they were doing the high level language first
22:29:24 <ehird> then a low level language
22:29:26 <ehird> then the OS
22:29:32 <ehird> it was very, very comprehensive.
22:29:33 * oerjan wonders where the pun is
22:29:50 <ehird> By 2005 it had become clear that we must leverage mainstream software to make TUNES a reality, imperfectly at first, so that we might benefit from immediate practical applications and real-world experience. A few years later, armed with better tools and experience, we can write a new compiler and operating system within TUNES, replacing the messy underpinnings of our imperfect prototype with a clean, manageable infrastructure that supports our highest as
22:29:52 <ehird> pirations. At least that's the plan!
22:30:03 <ehird> It's 2008 now. If a few dedidated hackers can find the time and money to put some sustained effort into it, we could have a working prototype by 2010, with widespread use by 2015 or 2020.
22:30:05 <ais523> do we even know what the OS is going to be like?
22:30:12 <ehird> ais523: no, they haven't decided yet.
22:30:18 <ehird> s/they/we/; it's a community projet
22:30:20 <ehird> *project
22:30:23 <ehird> ais523: there ARE documents
22:30:48 <ehird> ais523: lemme find the most explanatory ones
22:30:58 <ehird> oh, here's one from david madore of unlambda fam
22:30:58 <ehird> e
22:30:59 <ehird> http://www.madore.org/~david/computers/tunes.html
22:31:19 <ehird> lemme find Fare's original
22:31:25 <ais523> I wonder if tunes were thinking about basing it on an esolang?
22:31:31 <ais523> maybe that's why they were logging us
22:31:40 <ehird> ais523: http://tunes.org/new/Review/cddb.html
22:31:58 <oerjan> "But though Far. is very good at explaining things orally (my humble opinion, of course), nothing he says is comprehensible when he starts writing things down (my humble opinion again, of course)." :D
22:32:21 <ehird> well http://tunes.org/new/Review/cddb.html is quite readable
22:34:00 <ehird> this conversation is fun
22:34:04 <ehird> we're all calling faré kooks
22:35:47 <oerjan> several kooks?
22:37:01 <GregorR> Heh, somebody dug up Shrodilang.
22:37:05 <GregorR> I remember making that :P
22:37:13 <FireFly> No problem~
22:37:19 <ais523> GregorR: we will dissect you and extract knowledge of the language from your brain
22:38:09 <ehird> talking to brian rice and slava pestov at once is rather fun.
22:38:09 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:38:54 <GregorR> Talking to brain rice and slavic pasta at once is rather fun.
22:39:05 <ehird> Very.
22:39:37 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:41:25 -!- M0ny has quit ("PEW PEW").
22:42:26 <ehird> So.
22:45:29 <GregorR> So?
22:45:46 <GregorR> That is SO Tacoma way.
22:45:46 <ehird> SO?
22:49:38 <oerjan> So!
22:51:02 <FireFly> So.
22:51:11 <oklopol> so...
22:51:18 <FireFly> ...so?
22:51:23 <GregorR> The.
22:51:45 <FireFly> <insert combo breaker meme here>
22:52:00 <ehird> So.
22:52:04 <oerjan> <insightful comment>
22:52:07 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:52:09 <ehird> SO.
22:52:12 <FireFly> Sorry, I'm getting tired
22:52:19 <oerjan> \SO
22:52:20 <ehird> S O
22:52:36 <FireFly> Just make an Ook with So's
22:52:55 <FireFly> And you can program while you chat, in real meme style
22:53:01 <GregorR> Sh! You'll wake the Oomoo!
23:02:31 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving...").
23:17:32 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:28:58 <ehird> a
23:40:52 <GreaseMonkey> hmm... it'd be cool having a lang which is good for team-coding
23:41:24 <GreaseMonkey> oh wait, that's called BASIC
23:41:39 <GreaseMonkey> well, it'd be cool having a lang with BASIC line numbering
23:41:43 <GreaseMonkey> in this case
23:44:12 <GregorR> ................ wtf.
23:44:22 <GregorR> By what stretch of the imagination is line-numbering good for team coding?
23:44:32 <ehird> what GregorR said
23:45:46 <lament> oooooh
23:45:55 <lament> real number line numbering!
23:46:05 <ehird> lawl
23:46:54 <GregorR> O_O
23:47:15 <GregorR> Preferably only numbers between 0 and 1, upper-exclusive.
23:48:43 * ehird plays with maxmsp
23:55:52 <ehird> max msp is... a graph language. cool.
←2009-04-14 2009-04-15 2009-04-16→ ↑2009 ↑all