00:00:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:03:49 ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!INTERCAL 00:03:49 ITRALCEN 00:04:12 ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!an green butt! 00:04:19 It doesn't like me./ 00:04:20 ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!INTERCA 00:04:20 ITRACEN 00:04:22 s/\/$// 00:04:35 ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!INTERCALS 00:04:36 ITRASLCEN 00:05:40 ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!ANBUTTACULARINTERCAL 00:06:00 that's weird 00:06:15 fungot: why are you ignoring ehird? 00:06:17 oerjan: to use the fnord engine has trouble with non-local tco, particularly in scheme, besides academic or learning porposes? 00:06:26 ^bf ,[.,]!oh 00:06:26 oh wait 00:06:26 oh 00:06:36 ehird: initial space 00:06:49 :D 00:06:51 ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!ANBUTTACULARINTERCAL 00:06:51 ABTAUAITRALCENRLCTUN 00:06:57 ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!an green butt! 00:06:57 a re ut!tbnegn 00:07:06 I love that obfuscation method 00:07:17 ^def srmlebac bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<] 00:07:18 Defined. 00:07:31 ^srmlebac Testing, ho! 00:07:31 Tsig o!h,nte 00:08:07 oerjan: Write a decoder? 00:08:12 ^srmlebac Tsig o!h,nte 00:08:12 Ti !,tenhogs 00:08:18 ^srmlebac Ti !,tenhogs 00:08:18 T ,ehgsont!i 00:08:19 coming up 00:08:23 ^srmlebac T ,ehgsont!i 00:08:23 T,hsn!itoge 00:08:49 ^save 00:08:49 OK. 00:08:51 it's a permutation so it must have a period... 00:09:08 fizzie: ^save? 00:09:17 It saves the user-defined commands. 00:09:20 oerjan: length of message? 00:09:32 ^srmlebac abc 00:09:32 acb 00:09:34 ^srmlebac acb 00:09:34 abc 00:09:38 Minus one. 00:09:40 ^srmlebac abcd 00:09:40 acdb 00:09:42 ^srmlebac acdb 00:09:42 adbc 00:09:44 ^srmlebac adbc 00:09:44 abcd 00:09:46 Yep. 00:09:48 not necessarily, maybe in this case 00:09:48 len(msg)-1 00:09:52 oerjan: in two case. 00:09:54 *cases 00:09:57 ^srmlebac abcde 00:09:58 acedb 00:09:59 ^srmlebac acedb 00:10:00 aebdc 00:10:02 ^srmlebac aebdc 00:10:02 abcde 00:10:07 Huh. 00:10:14 it's a factor of length factorial 00:10:19 oerjan: Hahaha. Brilliant 00:10:31 ^srmlebac aebdc 00:10:31 abcde 00:10:35 well, that's just basic group theory 00:10:49 I know. But it's nice. 00:10:58 ^srmlebac srmlebac 00:10:58 smeacblr 00:11:01 ^srmlebac smeacblr 00:11:01 seclrbam 00:11:04 ^srmlebac seclrbam 00:11:04 scramble 00:11:13 oerjan: it's most often two, I guess. 00:11:21 for short strings 00:11:42 ^srmlebac abcd 00:11:42 acdb 00:12:18 ^srmlebac Whathogoodsir 00:12:18 Wahgosridooth 00:12:21 ^srmlebac Wahgosridooth 00:12:22 Whordohtoisga 00:12:26 ^srmlebac Whordohtoisga 00:12:26 Wodhosagitorh 00:12:29 ^srmlebac Wodhosagitorh 00:12:29 Wdoaiohrtgsho 00:12:32 ^srmlebac Wdoaiohrtgsho 00:12:32 Woihtsohgroad 00:12:35 ^srmlebac Woihtsohgroad 00:12:35 Witogodarhsho 00:12:37 ^srmlebac Witogodarhsho 00:12:38 Wtgdrsohhaooi 00:12:40 ^srmlebac Wtgdrsohhaooi 00:12:40 Wgrohoioahsdt 00:12:43 ^srmlebac Wgrohoioahsdt 00:12:43 Wrhiastdhooog 00:12:45 ^srmlebac Wrhiastdhooog 00:12:46 Whathogoodsir 00:12:47 ^bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]!ITRALCEN 00:12:48 INTERCAL 00:12:53 2 for even? 00:12:57 oerjan: 9, in this case 00:13:18 ^srmlebac abcdefghijklmnopqrst 00:13:18 acegikmoqstrpnljhfdb 00:13:21 ^srmlebac acegikmoqstrpnljhfdb 00:13:21 aeimqtplhdbfjnrsokgc 00:13:23 ^srmlebac aeimqtplhdbfjnrsokgc 00:13:24 aiqphbjrogcksnfdltme 00:13:25 oklopol: no. 00:13:32 ^bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]!ITRACEN 00:13:33 INTERCA 00:13:35 darn. 00:13:45 ^bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]!ITRASLCEN 00:13:45 INTERCALS 00:13:50 seems to work 00:14:03 Well, ^def it. 00:14:07 ^def uenlsbcmra bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>] 00:14:07 Defined. 00:14:18 ^uenlsbcmra an big butt lmao! 00:14:18 a!no abmilg tbtu 00:14:25 ^scramble an big butt lmao! 00:14:33 e 00:14:34 er 00:14:37 ^srmlebac an big butt lmao! 00:14:37 a i utla!om tbgbn 00:14:47 ^save 00:14:47 OK. 00:14:47 ^uenlsbcmra uenlsbcmra 00:14:48 uaernmlcsb 00:14:51 err 00:14:52 i don't ge it 00:14:54 *get it 00:15:04 ^srmlebac uenlsbcmra 00:15:05 unscramble 00:15:13 huh 00:15:23 oh right 00:15:23 :D 00:15:24 ^uenlsbcmra srmlebac 00:15:25 scramble 00:15:48 yeah i just reversed both algorithms in my head. 00:16:17 so what's the cycle oerjan 00:17:04 The cycle-oerjan. 00:17:13 probably length dependent, and only that 00:17:18 *obviously 00:17:22 For those who have trouble running it mentally, I also added ^scramble-^unscramble aliases. 00:17:34 fizzie: spoilsport :D 00:17:34 oerjan: no 00:17:38 oerjan: Not really; for "aaaaa" it is always 1. 00:17:51 oerjan: what fizzie said but without explaining, just saying. 00:17:51 oh right 00:17:58 ^scramble spoilsport 00:17:58 solprtosip 00:18:04 I'm a solprtosip! 00:18:39 oerjan: but assuming obfuscating x1x2x3..xn, please calculate cycle length because i need to know it 00:19:28 (by that i meant xi as in character number i, not a variable) 00:19:58 well it goes to x1x3x5...x4x2 00:22:01 Just manually test for strings 1, 12, 123, 1234, 12345, 123456, 1234567 and then feed those numbers to the On-Line Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences. 00:22:08 That's what I always do. :p 00:22:14 heh brilliant 00:22:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 00:22:52 i was just about to suggest that 00:23:05 but ended up not remembering what the encyclopedia was called 00:23:23 clearly it's very unintuitive 00:23:52 -!- coppro has joined. 00:24:03 I only ever remember that it's the first Google-hit for "integer sequence". 00:24:27 and i always remember its abbreviation is OEM. 00:27:30 ^scramble abbbbbb 00:27:30 abbbbbb 00:27:35 ... 00:27:37 WAT :D 00:27:40 oh 00:27:40 ofc 00:27:45 ^scramble babbbbb 00:27:45 bbbbbba 00:27:48 ^scramble bbbbbba 00:27:48 bbbabbb 00:27:51 ^scramble bbbabbb 00:27:51 bbbbbab 00:27:54 ^scramble bbbbbab 00:27:54 bbbbabb 00:28:02 That's a nice pseudorandom number generator. :P 00:28:03 huh? 00:28:08 Oo 00:28:12 Whoa. hi coppro! 00:28:17 Hi 00:28:58 -!- ehird has set topic: We could do with a useful topic | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 00:29:05 I didn't even realize you came on here... you aren't in ##nomic 00:29:25 ##nomic grew out of #ircnomic, which I co-founded, actually. 00:29:38 I have op-related disagreements. 00:30:01 ok, seems to be http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A003558 00:30:04 isn't there some command to find the topic of a channel without actually being in it? 00:30:04 (It was birthed out of this place; it's actually what got me and ais523 to join Agora.) 00:30:12 coppro: TOPIC #chan? 00:30:25 ah, good, it's just my client then 00:31:16 /list #chan is why i use, hm is that the same... 00:31:22 *what 00:32:23 just a bit more information 00:32:51 -!- coppro has set topic: #rootnomic. 00:32:58 rofl 00:33:00 fail 00:33:07 -!- coppro has set topic: We could do with a useful topic | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 00:33:33 oh interesting, /topic gives a slightly different result depending on whether the channel is non-public or non-existent, while /list doesn't distinguish 00:34:33 (checked with #irp) 00:35:00 Interesting: TPB's sentence seems to be having a bit of backlash. 00:35:04 indeed 00:35:08 Piratbyran has gained 5,000 members. 00:35:10 Today. 00:35:21 Oo last I heard it was at 3000 00:35:35 That was 3,000 and counting. 00:35:40 Does any language development take place here? 00:35:49 Quite often. 00:35:53 neat 00:35:59 Mostly we just mess with fungot. 00:35:59 ehird: look at how erlang implements it, given that with it. 00:36:10 coppro: he's written in befunge-98: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 00:36:10 ehird: am i funny to you? 00:36:15 fungot: very. 00:36:15 ehird: everytime i read through the presentation, or was it 1024 and 2048 even. sounds interesting, too.) 00:36:26 wow 00:36:30 ehird and GregorR were just discussing plof, which is admittedly not esoteric, though it is homebrewed 00:36:39 oerjan: Yeah, that's all gone to #plof atm. 00:36:42 We moved to #plof. 00:36:47 oerjan: Also, it's quite esoteric... 00:36:59 Especially the implementation details. 00:37:08 ehird: It's merely little-known and vaguely odd. 00:37:15 Erlang would be esoteric if it weren't for the radical threading model 00:37:24 Unlike esolangs, it's meant for most people to be able to use. ;) 00:37:26 coppro: ... which makes it not esoteric? 00:37:29 I don't think I follow :D 00:37:49 well, look at the thing. 00:37:52 pikhq: There's nothing stopping you replacing all the syntax with BF. 00:37:53 4 statement terminators! 00:38:01 oklopol: the encyclopedia description of that sequence seems to have nothing to do with permutations, though 00:38:03 coppro: Eh, not that much more than Prolog. 00:38:11 There's nothing stopping you from making Plof into a Tcl implementation, either. 00:38:13 Erlang basically ripped Prolog's syntax. 00:38:16 is prolog that bad too? 00:38:49 It's pretty much identical, but not quite as symbol-heavy. 00:38:53 IMO, Prolog is prettier than Erlang. 00:38:59 yeah, erlang is ugly 00:39:09 Erlang is awesome. 00:39:09 and the only other language for the VM is Reia, which I don't like for other reasons :( 00:39:25 Never disagreed! 00:39:30 coppro: Haskell has an Erlang bridge, I think. 00:39:35 That lets you write and interact with nodes in Haskell. 00:39:38 When Plof is set up well enough, I might make a Tcl implementation in it. 00:39:48 that's different from running on the VM 00:39:53 pikhq: By actually turning Plof into it? How Forth :-P 00:40:05 coppro: Well, what's so hot about the VM apart from the threading? 00:40:05 ehird: Egg-zactly! :P 00:40:05 ehird: Plof is a language that demands it. 00:40:09 ... As is Tcl. 00:40:11 ehird: the threading! 00:40:20 coppro: You can use the threading from Haskell, then. :-P 00:40:27 with the bridge 00:40:29 Haskell has a threading model? ;) 00:40:30 If you will recall, I wrote PEBBLE by making Tcl into PEBBLE. ;) 00:40:37 GregorR: I meant erlang threading 00:40:42 aka processes 00:40:44 aka nodes 00:40:52 oklopol: i guess it would be explained if the scrambling in some way _is_ multiplication by 2 (mod 2n+1), which sounds a bit likely 00:40:54 that sounds worse than just using Erlang 00:41:15 ... Adding Haskell to something makes it worse? 00:41:34 coppro: you've just made an amazing scientific discovery. I didn't previously consider that possible ;-) 00:41:46 no, but trying to deal with it through a bridge sounds worse 00:42:04 Well, kay 00:43:52 BEAM also has single assignment! 00:44:12 oerjan: so there's something really awesome going on in here? 00:44:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:44:17 ^srmlebac 0123456789 00:44:17 0246897531 00:44:33 2468! 00:44:36 the first part looks like multiplication by 2, the rest - not so much 00:44:41 oerjan: 7 5 3 00:44:42 3 5 7 00:44:49 Right. 00:44:51 Not very useful. 00:44:54 Wait. 00:44:59 oerjan: 3 5 7. Odd numbers ascending. 00:45:01 Backwards. 00:45:04 So, uh. Descending. 00:45:11 1 3 5 7 9 00:45:15 0 2 4 6 8 00:45:33 oerjan: So scrambling sorts it into even and odd sets. 00:45:36 perhaps the +- 1 part of the sequence definition enters into that somehow 00:45:43 ^scramble 123456789 00:45:44 135798642 00:45:49 ehird: that's kinda obvious :P 00:45:52 13579 00:45:53 2468 00:46:01 oklopol: not to oerjan, see "not so much" 00:46:58 ehird: well. if that partitioning should show why it's multiplication by 2, then i guess i don't understand either. 00:47:11 ehird: what oklopol said 00:47:28 well shush 00:47:30 i'm right okay. 00:47:32 although point: it's multiplication mod 2*n+1, not mod n 00:47:35 oerjan: would you really say the "well" part tho? 00:47:50 well, i might. 00:47:56 :) 00:48:16 oh dear... 00:48:22 wait... 00:48:39 are the 9 and stuff somehow negative numbers err.... 00:48:43 I just had such a bad thought that I'm almost certainly going to have to implement it... 00:48:44 i mean... 00:48:53 meh i mean nothing. 00:49:58 oerjan: can you prove it's that by induction? 00:50:18 by that i mean would you do that, i don't want to, i just want results :P 00:50:46 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:50:52 to make it mod 2n+1 you would pad with some extra positions, around the original ones 00:54:38 ^scramble 012345678 00:54:39 024687531 00:54:49 ^scramble 9876543210 00:54:49 9753102468 00:55:01 Ooh, that one wraps. 00:55:05 Wait, no. 00:55:31 ^unscramble 012345678 00:55:32 081726354 00:57:07 ^scramble aaaaaaaa 00:57:08 aaaaaaaa 00:57:15 huh, it doesn't work 00:57:26 * oerjan swats lament -----### 00:57:42 lament: the a's are scrambled correctly on my screen. 00:57:55 what order are they in on yours? 00:58:18 ^scramble bbbabbb 00:58:18 bbbbbab 00:58:23 ^scramble bbbbbab 00:58:23 bbbbabb 00:58:27 ^scramble bbbbabb 00:58:27 bbabbbb 00:58:31 ^scramble bbabbbb 00:58:31 babbbbb 00:58:36 ^scramble babbbbb 00:58:36 bbbbbba 01:07:46 ^scramble abcdefgh 01:07:46 aceghfdb 01:07:53 ^scramble 01234567 01:07:53 02467531 01:08:23 ^scramble the and 01:08:23 teadn h 01:08:37 Challenge: Make scrambles that result in coherent english both ways. 01:09:14 ^scramble the 01:09:14 teh 01:10:24 ^scramble 12345678 01:10:24 13578642 01:11:25 So (1)(2358)(47)(6) for 8 elements, cycle length 4. 01:11:30 ^scramble 1234567890 01:11:30 1357908642 01:12:44 Ilari: http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A003558 although that may just be more confusing :D 01:13:03 So (1)(235947860) for 10 elements, cycle length 9. 01:13:18 weird. 01:13:56 that does look a bit like multiplication tho 01:16:36 ah I love my scramble algo 01:16:37 it's so elegant! 01:16:39 :P 01:17:38 yours? 01:18:27 oerjan: I started it off 01:18:28 ITRALCEN 01:18:30 remember? 01:18:35 I invented it a year ago though 01:18:44 i thought you were quoting ais523 01:18:46 ah 01:18:50 Nope :P 01:20:04 ^scramble 1234 01:20:05 1342 01:21:37 ^scramble 123 01:21:37 132 01:21:45 ^scramble 1234 01:21:45 1342 01:21:46 ah 01:21:58 ^scramble blow 01:21:59 bowl 01:22:57 ^scramble 12345 01:22:57 13542 01:26:05 I for one welcome our new robot overlord. 01:42:22 is BF able to distinguish EOF from a zero byte? 01:42:46 Depends on the implementation. 01:43:44 Isn't EOF a zero byte? 01:44:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:44:13 there are at least three different conventions 01:44:35 (1) EOF = 0 (2) EOF = -1 (3) EOF = no change 01:44:56 immediate quit is not an option? 01:44:57 Bigger problem with my situation: If the entire place requires adult verification, how will unverified people be able to buy my product in-world? 01:45:08 iano: not a good oen 01:45:28 iano: that makes things such as reversing input impossible 01:45:43 ok, fixing my interpreter... 01:46:26 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck#EOF 01:50:46 It's probably cheating if I ask what esolang has +| and space as possible characters? 01:51:21 you mean only those? 01:51:28 Sgeo: Adult verification? What, exactly, are you making in SL? 01:51:37 pikhq, something that's not adult at all 01:51:47 But my stall is near a store that is 01:52:03 http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/7457/nakedstall001.png my stall is on the right (NSFWishO) 01:54:12 Jeeze, man... I've got dialup. Could you make it any bigger? :p 01:54:21 iano: or use 16 bit brainfuck 01:54:37 arrrrrgh my mouse is out of batteries 01:54:50 bsmntbombdood: try with cheese 01:58:36 -!- jix_ has quit ("..."). 02:09:53 is there a ^see to list a ^def? 02:09:59 ^show 02:10:00 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble 02:10:08 thx 02:10:33 ^show scramble 02:10:33 >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2] 02:10:57 fungot uses run-length encoding 02:10:57 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 02:10:58 oerjan: but it works.... any way to delete a value of type a can be any number... 02:11:12 ah, wondering about those "2" s 02:12:26 strange that it doesn't use it for all the >>'s 02:12:27 ^show unscramble 02:12:27 >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>] 02:21:07 -!- Sgeo_ has quit ("Leaving"). 02:24:02 I invented it a year ago though <<< i've seen that "encryption" method tonswhere, not that it changes the fact you may have invented it, just wanted to use that term. 02:26:08 Jeeze, man... I've got dialup. Could you make it any bigger? :p <<< what's dialup? something cavemen used for clubbing dinosaurs? 02:26:30 What "encryption" method? 02:26:47 Sgeo: Seog 02:27:38 ok, got some batteries 02:27:58 how uncheesy 02:28:36 * Sgeo waits for a response from the landlord about the adult thing 02:28:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("Argh, the pain!"). 02:29:33 also would be nice to have a more sophisticated referring-to-specific-messages method than copypasting them :) 02:29:44 or not. 02:30:06 oklopol: http://swfchan.com/7/32012/?56k_modem.swf 02:30:13 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 02:39:33 -!- iano has quit. 03:43:18 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:52:06 hm. I wonder if something like Dasher for context-free grammars would be interesting/useful 04:52:48 mimicking leftmost derivation to produce syntactically correct programs by following your mouse 04:53:54 0,2528,129312,89888,86016,86016,4064,2080,2336,125216,77568,73984,123136,0,0,0 04:54:15 stop reminding me of how much Flash sucks on Linux :( 04:54:31 http://lab.andre-michelle.com/tonematrix 04:55:00 flash sucks on * 04:55:02 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:55:20 right, update-to-10 woes 04:55:57 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.). 04:55:59 'woes' being an understatement for the sadistically tortuous and ultimately fruitless exercise 04:56:01 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 04:56:16 or, I suppose, masochistic, given that I was enough of a fool to try it in the first place 06:09:11 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection timed out). 06:10:21 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 06:17:36 -!- Gracenotes has quit (SendQ exceeded). 06:20:20 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 06:37:42 -!- 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out)). 15:04:18 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 15:21:23 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection timed out). 15:45:27 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 15:51:35 -!- Gracenotes has quit (SendQ exceeded). 15:53:47 Well. 15:53:49 This is unique. 15:54:20 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 15:54:56 Gracenotes: Y'know, for the last 11 hours or so, the only messages in #esoteric are you quitting and logging in (OK, a few log-ins and log-outs from other people) 15:56:12 I ignored those particular comings and goings about 7 hours ago 16:01:47 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 16:02:51 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 16:04:34 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Client Quit). 16:05:36 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 16:07:27 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Client Quit). 16:17:58 -!- neldoreth has quit ("Lost terminal"). 16:49:27 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:49:40 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 16:50:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:50:51 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Client Quit). 16:56:45 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 17:21:58 GregorR, hah 17:31:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:35:07 -!- jix has joined. 17:48:27 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:55:31 -!- neldoreth has joined. 18:07:52 Phase 1: compelte 18:07:56 *complete 18:10:45 coppro, of what? 18:10:53 my seccret project 18:11:02 uhu 18:11:06 maybe I should make it let me sepll better 18:11:16 maybe 18:11:28 but if it is secret why are you talking about it here... 18:12:48 because it will be revealed here 18:19:30 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:27:24 Some idiots outside my apartment are playing "toss the beanbag into a fucking wooden block", which seems to be a popular game amongst drunken frat morons, while also playing shitty music, so I'm employing some COUNTER-ELGAR 18:27:36 Counter-Elgar? 18:27:47 What, pray tell, does this entail? 18:27:49 Elgar played loud enough to drown out their shit. 18:27:57 Although the track just changed, so now it's counter-Holst. 18:28:28 Ah. 18:29:14 Follow up with, say, counter-Pink Floyd. Give them the joy that only progressive rock can give. :p 18:29:24 Yeah, I'm gonna go with no. 18:30:12 Not a fan 18:30:13 ? 18:31:03 what's elgar? 18:33:47 Elgar is a composer. 18:33:54 A composer whose wildly underrated, unfortunately. 18:33:56 Well, was :P 18:34:04 Also, "who's" X_X 18:34:32 His music causes you to forget how to use verb tenses and homonyms. 18:37:36 i just didn't know it was a human's name even though i think i actually do know him if he's classical 18:37:53 didn't realize you were that kinda dude although i should've 18:37:55 err 18:38:00 right you corrected youself. 18:40:42 Well, aside from the fact that he's Romantic era and collapsing all music more than 109 years old into the group "classical" is silly, yes. 18:41:18 well i thought i should probably correct that because i'd get some gay comment like that if he wasn't actually classical 18:41:32 -!- schlangen1 has joined. 18:41:33 ^^ 18:41:33 but then i realized that matterd not 18:41:35 *e 18:41:58 hiding the fact i don't know shit about non-modern genres either wouldn't change the fact i don't 18:42:15 So, you listen to less-than-recent music. 18:43:18 "less-than-recent" X-D 18:43:32 Yes, I listen exclusively to 80s music X-P 18:44:06 Wow, the decade I almost completely skip over! 18:44:11 Elgar played loud enough to drown out their shit. <-- :D 18:47:08 GregorR, hm, wouldn't Beethoven work better than Elgar in this case? Lets say his no.5 :D 18:47:22 first movment 18:47:26 I'm just shuffling my playlist *shrugs* 18:47:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:48:00 Music from 109 years and older is music that I enjoy when I hear it, but I don't have any of it, so I don't know much about it... 18:48:01 I'm on Beethoven's symphony 4 now, which also isn't /hugely/ suited to the purpose of drowning out their garbage. 18:48:11 GregorR, so what do you listen to when it comes to what is popularly called "classical" (of course it is the wrong word, but I don't know any better either) 18:48:23 And therefore, I end up not knowing where to start. 18:49:00 AnMaster: My favorite is the 19th century Russian composers, e.g. Borodin, Rimsky-Korsakov, Balakirev, etc. 18:49:04 GregorR, personally I rather like the actually classical music. Mozart, Haydn, Kraus and so on 18:49:27 GregorR, hm... haven't listened much to them. 18:49:52 the names do ring bells though. 18:50:16 Go find Borodin's Nocturne ... argh, right now I don't remember exactly which nocturne it is, one sec. 18:50:33 GregorR, Borodin... Hm some opera "Furst "? 18:50:37 or was that someone else 18:50:44 Right, nocturne from string quartet #2 18:50:51 Doesn't ring a bell ... 18:50:54 mhm 18:51:32 ah it is the Swedish name for it... 18:51:44 "Prince Igor" in English 18:51:48 Oh yeah, that's him. 18:51:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Igor 18:52:10 GregorR, ever listened to Kraus? 18:52:14 Князь Игорь :D 18:52:24 Yeah, but I don't own anything by him. 18:52:25 Doesn't ring a bell ... <<< with classical music, there's probably some way to make that a pun 18:52:39 I can highly recommend Kraus' Sinfonia in C sharp minor. (VB 140 iirc) 18:53:52 GregorR, Especially the fourth movement in it. Somehow reminds me of the last movement in Vivaldi's Summer. 18:53:55 AnMaster: OK, you listen to Borodin's nocturne and I'll listen to that :P 18:54:32 GregorR, I'll see if I can find it somewhere. I think I have a CD with mixed Russian composers. Let me check if it is on there. brb 18:54:49 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSdMKJqnnW4 <-- I believe this is it 18:54:58 Just searched on youtube, haven't started listening to check :P 18:55:10 Gracenotes: Y'know, for the last 11 hours or so, the only messages in #esoteric are you quitting and logging in (OK, a few log-ins and log-outs from other people) 18:55:15 Yup, that's it. 18:55:23 Right, nocturne from string quartet #2 18:55:23 i was starting to wonder if clog was acting up again 18:55:26 which movement? 18:55:34 but no whole hours seem missing 18:55:38 The nocturne is a movement :P 18:55:39 #3 18:55:51 GregorR, then I have it on that cd 18:55:56 Awesome. 18:56:19 It's probably Borodin's most popular piece, but for good reason. 18:57:04 GregorR, as for Kraus' VB 140 (fourth movement: Allegro). I couldn't find it on youtube when I looked some time ago. I do have it on cd 18:57:21 I don't X-P 18:57:48 Some idiots outside my apartment are playing "toss the beanbag into a fucking wooden block", which seems to be a popular game amongst drunken frat morons, while also playing shitty music, so I'm employing some COUNTER-ELGAR 18:57:57 * oerjan whistles "Land of hope and glory" 18:58:09 mind you, that's the only Elgar i know 18:58:27 Unfortunately, your whistling does not appear to have reached here. 18:58:39 Hahahah, they left! I win! 18:58:40 i can do little about that 18:59:45 I might have found it on there. *checks if it is good quality* 18:59:51 GregorR: i guess toss the nerd isn't popular anymore 19:00:03 * oerjan used to watch the promenade concert, long ago when he actually watched tv 19:00:13 oklopol: The prerequisite "break into somebody's apartment" isn't so popular 19:01:07 GregorR: right, i guess i'm old-fashioned. 19:01:19 oerjan: do you own a tv? 19:01:28 technically, yes 19:01:55 i never used to watch tv, but nowadays it's always on in my favorite pizza place :| 19:02:10 hm 19:02:25 and when it's not, there's usually a newspaper, which ofc is even worse 19:02:50 * GregorR watches TV until pinkish-grey goo starts to melt out of his ears. 19:03:28 * oerjan still reads newspapers at his favorite place too 19:03:37 GregorR, seems http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbhA7NRZTZ0&fmt=18 to contain two variant of it, first Kraus' reworked variant in C minor, followed by the one I prefer: the original in C sharp minor. 19:03:49 they do have a tv but it's in the children's corner and only plays dvd movies 19:03:53 it is only the last movement in both 19:04:12 AnMaster: What a weird way to post that, then :P 19:04:16 TV? Isn't that the low-resolution monitor with a DVD player hooked up to it that's near the couch? 19:04:19 oerjan: i'd probably prefer the kids' movies. 19:04:21 GregorR, yes 19:04:48 oklopol: well, there _are_ several children's movies i've only seen on that tv :D 19:04:52 pikhq: probably 19:05:05 :) 19:05:57 GregorR, also this is not the best recording I heard. I prefer the one I have on CD (by the Swedish Chamber Orchestra) which feels more "stormy" kind of. 19:07:21 GregorR, so what do you think of them? 19:07:35 * AnMaster is listening to that nocturne atm 19:07:50 I just started listening. Was stupidly plodding around trying to find the start of the second one, but instead I'm just listening through both. 19:07:58 This is most certainly classical music. 19:08:27 GregorR, yes, he died one or two years after Mozart did iirc 19:09:07 i just didn't know it was a human's name even though i think i actually do know him if he's classical 19:09:26 it _does_ sound like a good name for a moose, especially to norwegians :) 19:09:53 oerjan, you never heard of Elgar before!? 19:10:04 norwegian for moose? i think i have a pen that has a picture of a moose and elg under it 19:10:13 ... there are Meese in Norway? 19:10:20 AnMaster: <* oerjan whistles "Land of hope and glory" 19:10:25 GregorR, no, elks 19:10:35 oerjan, oh ok, didn't see that 19:10:48 i thought moose and elk were mostly synonyms 19:11:03 oerjan, I think they differ in size or? 19:11:17 moose being the larger Canadian ones 19:11:19 AnMaster: The end of one going into the beginning of the next was a bit jarring there X-D 19:11:21 maybe I'm mistaken 19:11:36 The moose (North America) or elk (Europe), Alces alces, is the largest extant species in the deer family. 19:11:39 GregorR, there was a pause between them 19:11:54 AnMaster: Yeah, but not so long that the key change didn't make me go "gwar!" 19:12:01 I had no idea elk and meese were the same. 19:12:11 moose not "meese" 19:12:13 ... 19:12:20 I know, but "meese" is so much funnier. 19:12:24 oh 19:12:43 GregorR: also, elk in north america is used for a different animal too 19:12:56 says that wp article 19:12:56 "Confusingly, the word elk in North America refers to the second largest deer species, Cervus canadensis, also known as the wapiti." <-- yeah, that's why 19:13:06 GregorR, well what do you think of the second one? As I said, not the best recording I heard, but quite ok. And it is really a lot better experience hearing the entire symphony in the right order. 19:13:08 'cuz I know of that Elk, and didn't think they were meese. 19:13:14 Because they're not. 19:13:36 AnMaster: I agree that the original was better. 19:13:39 GregorR, this nocturne is quite nice. 19:13:40 AnMaster: Both good though. 19:13:40 sofar the kraus piece sounds like a random collection of trivial etudes 19:14:18 GregorR, see what I meant when I said it made me think of the last movement in Vivaldi's summer? 19:14:25 that usually means i need to listen to it a few more times, but i prefer just saying because i like disliking old stuff. 19:14:25 Yeah 19:14:36 *it 19:14:38 GregorR, oh I love Vivaldi's summer too btw :) 19:15:02 " *it" err -> that usually means it need to listen to it a few more times, but it prefer just saying because it like disliking old stuff. 19:15:17 AnMaster: try again. 19:15:21 hm 19:16:02 oklopol, the original makes sense, none of the changed versions do 19:16:07 hint: something's missing an object 19:16:16 "saying it"? 19:16:22 yes 19:16:53 When correcting yourself goes wrong. 19:17:16 anyway you really need to listen to all four movements of VB 140 to get the right experience. 19:17:29 also, http://www.halge.com/ 19:17:32 they build upon each other very nicely 19:17:38 the second version is great btw, not that i wouldn't known they :D 19:17:40 're the same 19:17:40 oerjan, thought Hälge was Swedish? 19:17:46 *would've 19:17:47 grr 19:18:06 oklopol, fail to parse correction 19:18:22 oerjan, pretty sure it is Swedish even 19:18:33 well let's try again 19:18:35 AnMaster: yes, so? 19:18:36 the second version is great 19:18:39 oerjan, right 19:18:49 but i didn't recognize the beginning to be the same as the first one 19:18:51 oerjan, thought you implied it was Norwegian 19:18:53 also, he's been translated to norwegian and i've read some in the library 19:18:58 misread you 19:19:07 although i did recognize the stuff after that 19:20:25 Swedish, Norwegian, 'ts all "European" to me. 19:20:28 ;) 19:20:33 oklopol, and yes it isn't simply transposed, there are some minor other changes 19:23:24 GregorR, I liked that nocturne btw, though I prefer music from the classical era. 19:24:08 back to figuring out how to select a non GM bank by midi on this keyboard. 19:24:34 AnMaster: you compose right 19:25:16 oklopol, no, but I play. 19:25:29 oh. 19:26:36 oklopol, I don't have the creative part needed for composing I guess. I wouldn't know where to start. Improvising (which I can do but I'm not very good at) maybe? 19:27:51 err i think when i was a kid i usually took a random chord sequence, and improvised on it until something came out 19:28:00 nowadays i tell my brain to gimme a song 19:28:49 oklopol, the reason I was checking this out is that I recently (few days ago) got a new electrical piano. Unlike my old electrical piano, this one is full size and the keys feel much more like a real piano. And the sound is much more realistic too. Downside: way heavier than the old one. 19:29:00 oklopol, interesting. 19:29:03 another thing you can do is make variations on existing songs. 19:29:41 hm, ok 19:30:02 i has a 3000€ electrical piano, a 300€ synthesizer and a very expensive piano (not mine) here 19:30:48 i have another electrical piano, but it's kinda unused atm 19:30:55 * AnMaster tries making a variation of this russian folk song by Beethoven for which he happened to have the music sheet within reach. 19:31:31 urgh. that didn't work out very well. 19:31:47 :P 19:31:51 oklopol, I can't translate € to SEK 19:31:54 meh 19:32:03 err i think the course was like 10:1 at some point 19:32:10 but dunno 19:32:13 maybe not. 19:32:42 google says 3000€ would be roughly twice as expensive as the electrical piano I bought a few days ago 19:33:04 anyway i used to have pretty explicit techniques for composing, unfortunately i don't anymore. 19:33:09 well slightly more than twice 19:33:35 the only explicit thing i do is deciding to use a certain element and tell my brain to gimme a song that uses it :P 19:34:27 (i compose all the time compulsively) 19:34:42 AnMaster: http://www.google.no/search?hl=no&q=3000+EUR+in+SEK&meta=&aq=f&oq= 19:34:53 oerjan: google says 3000€ would be roughly twice as expensive as the electrical piano I bought a few days ago 19:35:21 well, stop contradicting yourself 19:35:38 oerjan, I noticed I did have a browser window open after I said it 19:35:45 otherwise I would have waited for someone else 19:36:18 when i bought it, the models that were better were only different in that they had this "adjusting to surroundings" thing where you left them alone for 30 minutes to play alone and learn how to sound like a grand piano in a small room. 19:38:06 oklopol, mine certainly doesn't have it 19:38:32 it is a rather basic Roland FP-4 19:38:53 mine is a yamaha i think. but dunno. not really into details. 19:38:55 but I'm very happy with it 19:39:05 oklopol: sounds like a megalomaniac AI. are you sure this is safe? 19:39:30 oerjan: there's a reason i didn't buy one. 19:39:50 good, good. 19:39:55 oklopol, also it is way more money that I would like to put on an electrical piano. :P 19:40:05 in fact more than I could afford 19:40:31 the best ones would've been like 5000 19:40:46 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:41:15 oklopol, I wouldn't be able to afford that. 19:42:01 well, my parents had jobs at the time. 19:42:23 3000 is nothing if you have a job. 19:42:49 i mean i get like 400 a month and i could afford that easily 19:43:18 maybe even two of them, although admittedly that would be an outrageous lie. 19:45:30 -!- ehird has left (?). 19:45:44 -!- ehird has joined. 19:45:51 -!- ehird has left (?). 19:45:56 -!- ehird has joined. 19:51:14 17:10 coppro: my seccret project 19:51:19 secrete copprophilia 19:55:08 ehird you like nick puns, so... 19:55:21 i'm nickophilic! 19:55:27 ^___________^ 19:56:59 nickopath 20:12:24 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:34:19 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:34:45 * AnMaster wonders about 1/1 for music. 20:35:02 never seen that 20:35:12 AnMaster: You could do one syllable lyrics. 20:35:18 "I like cake" 20:35:21 ehird, true 20:35:36 It wouldn't be much of a rhythm. More a plod. 20:35:37 Hi ais523. 20:35:39 hi 20:36:04 ehird, or you could a different meter for the lyrics than the music. And call it "experimental modernistic" or something like that 20:36:28 Ehh, I have songs with instruments playing in different time signatures. 20:36:56 ah, you managed to confuse me there. 20:37:03 Wut. 20:37:07 meh 20:37:18 AnMaster: wut? 20:37:23 meh! 20:37:31 Meh‽ 20:37:46 quux 20:37:52 weapons of uzbek terrorists 20:38:25 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES6DSbPBBSE ← this has multiple instruments playing simultaneously in different time signatures, although admittedly calculated so they sync up) 20:41:28 how are those video ids on youtube decided? 20:42:11 is it some form of checksum? Or just a ever-increasing counter? 20:42:22 Probably randomly (UUID or the like) 20:42:26 semi-random or checksum 20:42:28 ah 20:42:31 err, not semi-random, random 20:42:32 :P 20:42:35 base 36 20:42:38 pseudo-random even 20:42:44 ehird, hm 36? 20:42:49 maybe they use radioactive decay 20:42:49 AnMaster: given that the id is the _only_ distinguishing part, you'd think they would need to avoid collisions 20:42:52 AnMaster: err wait 20:42:54 It's not 36, there's upper and lowercase letters 20:42:58 right 20:42:58 62 20:43:00 ehird, I think upper case, lower case, numbers, _ and - are all allowed 20:43:04 oh right 20:43:08 yeah, I would guess 64 20:43:08 64 20:43:12 possibly other symbols too 20:43:13 so a deterministic checksum would not work 20:43:13 power of two 20:43:14 indeed 20:43:14 makes sense 20:43:31 usually for this stuff you just make it random and repick when you find a collision 20:43:42 right 20:43:45 hi coppro, I was wondering when you'd turn up over here 20:43:50 ais523, hi 20:43:54 and hi AnMaster 20:44:20 ais523: as soon as I discovered it in a /whois 20:44:57 I should have mentioned it earlier when you started talking about INTERCAL-variant Baudot, I suspect only about 10 people know of that 20:45:17 * AnMaster is listening to this electrical piano playing Arabesque very well (built in demo song thing, why do they include that? Do they think someone would buy a electrical piano because it has 67 built in demo songs?) 20:45:38 ^srmlebac As requested... 20:45:39 A euse...dteqrs 20:45:51 oerjan, srmlebac? 20:46:07 ^srmlebac srmlebac 20:46:08 smeacblr 20:46:14 ^srmlebac smeacblr 20:46:14 seclrbam 20:46:25 ^srmlebac srmlebac 20:46:26 smeacblr 20:46:31 wait... 20:46:37 * coppro facepalms 20:46:39 what is this encoding 20:46:43 :D 20:46:45 ^srmlebac 123456 20:46:45 rotation? 20:46:46 135642 20:46:47 no 20:47:00 transposing somehting 20:47:11 ^srmlebac seclrbam 20:47:12 scramble 20:47:14 there we o 20:47:15 ah 20:47:16 *go 20:47:26 so how does it scramble? 20:47:36 AnMaster: easy 20:47:39 ^srmlebac 1234567890 20:47:40 abc -> acb 20:47:40 1357908642 20:47:43 take first character, type 20:47:47 take next character, type 20:47:48 move left one 20:47:53 {13579}{08642} 20:47:54 ah 20:47:54 abcdefg -> acegfdb 20:47:57 ^scramble abcdefg 20:47:58 acegfdb 20:48:00 right 20:48:02 ^unscramble acegfdb 20:48:02 abcdefg 20:48:07 meh 20:48:15 ^show 20:48:16 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble 20:48:21 ^help 20:48:21 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 20:48:25 You could've done just that. 20:48:27 ^uenlsbcmra srmlebac 20:48:27 scramble 20:48:33 To see where it came from. 20:48:48 fizzie, srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble was a dead giveaway anyway 20:49:08 Yes, I added the "plaintext" aliases so it's easier to remember. 20:50:04 ^show scramble 20:50:05 >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2] 20:50:09 ^show unscramble 20:50:10 >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>] 20:50:13 mhm 20:50:22 what's with the 2[ 2]? 20:50:33 2[ 2]? 20:50:37 coppro, internal data for loops iirc 20:50:41 don't remember details 20:51:37 actually <2 = << 20:51:42 ah 20:51:43 ah 20:51:52 oh scramble's source 20:51:53 right 20:51:54 why wasn't >> turned into >2 20:51:55 then 20:51:57 fizzie: you know why it replaces the << but not the >> ? 20:52:17 oerjan, I asked that several seconds before, I guess you are lagged. 20:52:27 your client I mean 20:52:31 lagged in the head 20:52:33 oerjan: Not really; I wondered about that, too. 20:52:39 1 second 20:52:54 but i didn't check after typing the line before pressing return 20:53:06 oerjan: It should replace both. There might be a: bug. 20:53:37 [21:52:17] oerjan, I asked that several seconds before, I guess you are lagged. 20:53:46 Actually, three seconds 20:53:55 For me, at least 20:53:58 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:54:19 ^unscramble unscramble 20:54:19 uenlsbcmra 20:54:22 AnMaster: also, i pointed it out yesterday too, so you are enormously lagged ;) 20:54:26 which is the unscramble cmd name ofc 20:55:09 ^def test bf <<<>>>+++--- 20:55:09 Defined. 20:55:10 is that a reversible operatoin? 20:55:11 ^show test 20:55:11 <3>>>+3-3 20:55:14 *operation 20:55:17 fizzie, "a: bug" :D 20:55:21 ^unscramble uenlsbcmra 20:55:22 uaernmlcsb 20:55:23 Yes, there seems to be some sort of bug wrt. >. 20:55:24 apparently not 20:55:32 ^unscramble uaernmlcsb 20:55:32 ubasecrlnm 20:55:41 ^unscrable ubasecrlnm 20:55:44 ^unscramble ubasecrlnm 20:55:44 umbnalsrec 20:55:45 ais523: of course it's reversible, but not self-inverse 20:55:50 ^unscramble umbnalsrec 20:55:50 ucmebrnsal 20:55:55 self-inverse is what I was thinking of 20:55:59 ^unscramble ucmebrnsal 20:55:59 ulcamsenbr 20:56:04 ^unscramble ulcamsenbr 20:56:04 urlbcnaems 20:56:09 ^unscramble urlbcnaems 20:56:09 usrmlebacn 20:56:09 ais523: Why would we have two instructions if it was a self-inverse? 20:56:11 ais523: we discussed cycle lengths yesterday 20:56:15 ^unscramble usrmlebacn 20:56:15 unscramble 20:56:15 yeah 20:56:16 ais523, self inverse Is that like rot13 you mean 20:56:20 yes 20:56:23 it's a factor of length factorial, says oerjan 20:56:29 short strings last 3 cycles 20:56:36 ^scramble anvirtuous 20:56:36 avruusotin 20:56:40 ^scramble avruusotin 20:56:40 aruointsuv 20:56:41 doesn't every reversible function with the same in- and out-domain eventually cycle back to the original value? 20:56:43 ^scramble aruointsuv 20:56:43 auituvsnor 20:56:46 ^scramble auituvsnor 20:56:46 aiusornvtu 20:56:48 ^scramble aiusornvtu 20:56:49 auontuvrsi 20:56:51 ^scramble auontuvrsi 20:56:52 aotvsirunu 20:56:54 ^scramble aotvsirunu 20:56:55 atsrnuuivo 20:56:57 ^scramble atsrnuuivo 20:56:57 asnuvoiurt 20:57:00 ^scramble asnuvoiurt 20:57:00 anvirtuous 20:57:09 8, there. 20:57:21 ehird: A plausible integer-sequence link was also pasted, I guess you saw that too? 20:57:26 ais523: it was a known sequence in the encyclopedia of integer sequences, but it still wasn't obvious why the definition there fit 20:57:30 I suspect that scramble always cycles in the long end. 20:57:34 ^unscramble usrmlebacn 20:57:34 unscramble 20:57:37 of course it cycles 20:57:41 fizzie: yeah 20:57:45 considering it's definition 20:57:53 well, duh. 20:57:55 proving it cycles is easy 20:57:57 thanks einstein 20:58:02 coppro, indeed 20:58:12 it obviously cycles, for the same reason that BackFlip programs always terminate 20:58:18 I just didn't bother making a formal proof, thus I used "suspect" 20:58:22 avruusotin <<< space taker 20:58:28 ais523, BackFlip is sub-tc then? 20:58:37 doesn't every reversible function with the same in- and out-domain eventually cycle back to the original value? <<< no 20:58:38 oklopol: More like "spce taker". 20:58:46 AnMaster: yes, obviously 20:58:52 it doesn't even have infinite storage 20:59:03 the fact that it always terminates is probably more interesting than the fact it's sub-TC, though 20:59:15 ais523, I don't remember details of BackFlip *looks at wiki page* 20:59:17 even more interestingly, Unassignable can be proven to always terminate along similar lines, and it's pretty high-level 20:59:21 hmm, no, the original value doesn't have to be in the cycle... of course :( 20:59:26 olsner: there's this thing called multiplication 20:59:30 olsner: it does if it's reversible 20:59:50 olsner: that's not the issue. it's in the cycle for permutations. 20:59:50 oklopol: ooh, I might add that I meant the domain was finite 20:59:56 olsner: then yes 21:00:07 ais523, "The first line of the file must be the longest and all lines below it are padded to its length with spaces, if necessary." 21:00:10 any reason why? 21:00:41 to help interps allocate memory better 21:00:50 olsner: if the original weren't in the cycle, the inverse operation would be able to tell how many cycles you've gone around when you started undoing it after cycling a few rounds 21:00:53 you know what i mean? 21:01:21 a->b->c->b->c->b->c->..., if you started taking the inverse, it couldn't know when to give a 21:01:26 oklopol: heh, that's sort of the opposite of the way I proved it, I was reasoning that in order to join the cycle there'd have to be some element in the cycle with two different inverses 21:01:53 oh, the inverse and the forward function would have to have the same cycles I guess 21:01:54 ais523: hmm, i think that's exactly the same proof 21:02:37 oklopol: the proof is its own inverse! 21:02:50 ais523, hm. That would solve a lot in befunge. I could even do something like mmap() file, mmap() an equally large area and do a bulk copy then 21:03:40 AnMaster: well, not exactly 21:03:52 that means that the interp pads all lines to the same length as the first, not the input file 21:04:12 ais523, oh right, misread it 21:04:13 ais523: http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A003558 was it 21:04:35 ais523, could the first line end in some spaces? 21:04:53 oerjan: how long did you check btw? 21:04:55 well 21:04:56 how far 21:04:59 up to 20 21:05:11 AnMaster: I'm not sure, I normally use hyphens 21:05:13 should i paste the haskell? 21:05:54 oerjan: that's not very reliable, haskell can do infinite lists, so why cut it? 21:06:14 er, to print the output 21:06:45 ~ 21:07:01 i didn't see the point in checking further (i was just comparing by eye though) 21:07:22 as in, i didn't implement the definition on the website 21:07:42 i'm pretty sure element 65427 would've been different 21:07:47 :D 21:07:51 i have this hunch. 21:07:53 ^show scramble 21:07:54 >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2] 21:07:55 http://lab.andre-michelle.com/tonematrix 21:07:58 ^show unscramble 21:07:58 >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>] 21:08:13 ais523: this is all due to my ITRALCEN 21:08:17 yes 21:08:22 I guessed 21:09:10 ais523: http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A003558 was it <-- for what 21:09:31 AnMaster: the number of iterations of ^scramble before it repeats 21:09:34 ah 21:09:38 yep 21:09:49 -!- Slereah has quit (Connection timed out). 21:09:55 which is m and n? 21:10:13 Sgeo: 65536,0,32800,0,8192,0,4096,0,1024,512,256,0,16384,16,0,16384 21:10:24 (copy that then right click→paste on tonematrix) 21:10:32 n is something like word length, but i didn't check if there's any increment 21:10:46 i.e. word length + something 21:10:50 Firefox spontaneously decided to go strange 21:11:29 Sgeo: 4098,5132,49168,92704,82112,32768,8356,16384,8722,13330,2338,2280,14352,20484,38912,3072 21:11:53 ehird, hooked? 21:11:59 I tried it earlier. 21:12:08 Ah 21:12:48 * Sgeo is attempting to make a random tonematrix generator 21:14:21 they're just integers 21:14:49 I want the user to be able to put in the number of rests and simultaneous tones 21:15:16 Also, I'm doing this in Javascript 21:15:23 Sgeo: ruby -e'16.times { print rand(131071), "," }; puts' 21:15:31 hm 21:15:32 make that 21:15:39 Sgeo: ruby -e'16.times { print ",", rand(131071) }; puts' 21:15:41 and omit the first , 21:15:55 sounds nice 21:16:12 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 21:16:30 ehird, the random ones, or my thoughts? 21:16:36 random 21:16:43 I feel sort of bad... I'm commenting an INTERCAL program 21:16:51 annoying: 49154,128,49154,128,49154,49154,128,128,24578,128,24578,128,128,98306,128,128 21:17:00 coppro: just make the comments meaningless 21:17:02 like oerjan did 21:17:16 huh? 21:17:18 Sgeo: what, that's awesome 21:17:21 coppro: don't worry, I do it all the time 21:17:24 coppro: see his unlambda interp 21:17:32 the Google style guide recomments comments, but insists they're in allcaps 21:18:34 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 21:18:54 -!- FireFly has joined. 21:19:24 someone should count number of citations vs number of [citation needed] on wikipedia. Both total and as average ratio per article 21:19:29 sounds like a job for fizzie 21:19:31 ;D 21:19:37 Can I safely use Javascript 1.6 stuff? 21:19:45 link? 21:19:53 Sgeo: no, I don't think so 21:19:55 I thought JavaScript 3 was out nowadays 21:20:22 ais523: have you ever used a browser? 21:20:48 there is more than one version of javascript? I thought it was just version with lots of implementation specific extensions on top 21:20:53 ehird: yes 21:21:10 AnMaster: you are so, so wrong. 21:21:12 Well, I'm on the Mozilla site, so 1.6 according to Mozilla anyway 21:21:26 ehird, I said "thought" not "think" 21:21:28 * Sgeo would really like to be able to use indexOf for this 21:21:36 so yes I were wrong 21:21:38 Or at least a way to check to see if an element is in an array. 21:21:40 AnMaster: as of 16 september 2008, the last time the stats were calculated, there were 607524 uses of {{reflist}}, and 124868 of {{fact}} 21:21:41 Sgeo: nobody will use it. 21:21:42 so feel free. 21:21:49 ais523, source? 21:21:55 ais523: reflist? there's other ways to do references. 21:21:58 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MostLinkedTemplates 21:21:58 Unless there's a better way to populate an array with random unique numbers? 21:22:02 ehird: yes, but they're harder to count 21:22:19 Well, I also need to check the array being used, so 21:22:21 127644 of {{unreferenced}}, by the way 21:22:27 ah 21:22:39 ais523, what about per-article average? 21:22:48 divide by the number of articles 21:23:40 mhm 21:24:28 ais523, so more citations than citation needed at that point of time? 21:24:35 also when will that page next update 21:25:11 AnMaster: when someone next runs that particular batch query, and I'm pretty sure it's a long way down the developer's list of priorities 21:25:30 ais523, well why isn't it automatically updated? 21:25:45 AnMaster: Why don't you buy them a fuckin' server? 21:25:52 You know, so they can run tons of useless queries all the time. 21:25:58 have you any idea how much processing it needs to scrape the whole of Wikipedia? 21:26:11 nowadays they have a toolserver for that sort of thing, but it would take it weeks or months to recompile that list I expect 21:26:17 and using a dedicated server for it would be a waste 21:26:23 ais523: oh, I doubt it'd take that long 21:26:30 ais523, you could add a field and update it on edit 21:26:32 ... Why scrape Wikipedia? They post database dumps on a regular basis. 21:26:34 well once you have the initial metrics, you can update on edit 21:26:40 and yeah, databse dumps 21:26:41 pikhq: I meant, from the dumps 21:26:42 AnMaster: yeah let's just have 100 fields for every edit 21:26:42 so worth it 21:26:46 Ah. Well, then. 21:26:51 ais523: if you run it on a multi-core system with a very fast disk I imagine you could do a few thousand articles a second 21:26:51 also, updating templates on edit would be a real mess the way MediaWiki works 21:26:56 ehird, they already have "pages using this template" 21:26:58 Eh, I'd guess that Wikipedia would be freaking huge. 21:27:02 with a reverse index 21:27:04 AnMaster: that's different 21:27:06 iirc 21:27:11 they maintain that index anyway 21:27:15 for page links 21:27:19 and it's often wrong 21:27:26 there are several known tricks to correct it 21:27:39 true, so how many pages use {{fact}} and how many use {{reflist}} 21:27:51 as in not instances, but pages with instances 21:28:12 ehird, put wikipedia on a ram disk :D 21:28:23 AnMaster: it's called a solid state drive 21:28:32 or, why not just fit WP in ram? 21:28:41 ehird, ramdisk != ssd 21:28:45 learn the difference 21:28:46 AnMaster: i know. 21:28:54 i meant, 'a fast disk' meant SSD. 21:29:00 and I specifically meant a ramdisk 21:29:05 since ssd is slow 21:29:07 you can't get ram disks big enough for wp, I don't think. 21:29:08 compared to ram 21:29:16 ssd is quick enough to scrape wp 21:29:19 you have other benchmarks 21:29:21 ehird, isn't the dump 12 GB? 21:29:28 s/benchmarks/bottlenecks/ 21:29:29 Yeah, it's 12G. 21:29:40 AnMaster: So? My next machine will have 12GB of ram. 21:29:41 It'd be a wee bit pricy, but you could have all of Wikipedia in RAM. 21:30:00 ehird, so just get a 32 GB RAM machine or such and use a part of it for a 12 GB RAM disk 21:30:01 Put a minimal linux on there and you could fit most of WP. 21:30:17 Or just read most of it in RAM, and have a one-time swapover cost. 21:30:22 32GB is expensive. 21:30:23 indeed 21:30:40 But attainable. 21:31:00 i need to buy a new computer 21:31:08 pikhq: Yeah, but the kind of person who wants to scrape WP can't afford 32gb of ram. 21:31:09 :P 21:31:14 ehird, or even more expensive: go for a massively parallel HPC computer/cluster 21:31:20 some NUMA thing obviously 21:31:49 12GB of DDR3 RAM + 4-core machine + SSD disk to load it into RAM quickly = quite cheap mega-fast wikipedia processor. 21:32:03 Quite cheap as these things go, that is. 21:32:09 ehird: I think I could just about afford that much RAM and a motherboard to use it. I'd be broke after doing so, but still... 21:32:20 pikhq: don't 21:32:39 12G compressed isn't it? 21:32:40 Yeah, I'll be pretty dry on cash after this. (But I never buy much.) 21:32:42 pikhq, wikipedia will soon outgrow it 21:32:44 bsmntbombdood: Nah. 21:32:46 9G compressed. 21:32:49 also 21:32:49 iirc. 21:32:53 what about images? 21:32:53 ais523: Well, yeah. I'd really rather not. 21:33:06 I thought it was 12 GB of text 21:33:09 AnMaster: Don't even think about images. 21:33:15 does that include the talk pages? 21:33:22 or is that dump even larger 21:33:24 I'm not exactly getting 12GB of RAM to scrape WP. 21:33:25 counting {{fact}} is gonna be i/o bound 21:33:26 ais523: Especially since the same funds could instead be spent to get me a nice Opteron motherboard with a couple of 4-core chips or some such. ;) 21:33:32 possibly even if everything's in ram 21:33:33 bsmntbombdood: So load it into RAM. 21:33:41 Ah. 21:33:45 bsmntbombdood: Well, w/ DDR3... 21:33:59 I don't think there's ever been a successful official public backup of the image servers 21:34:09 You'd still be IO-bound, but the bound wouldn't be much of a bound. 21:34:26 ais523, how much space do the images on wp use? 21:34:37 hundreds of Gs 21:34:39 too much 21:34:39 also I'm pretty sure wp deletes old images. 21:34:44 AnMaster: terabytes. 21:34:45 AnMaster: nope 21:34:46 and they don't. 21:34:51 how would image undelete work, then? 21:35:04 ais523, well I have seen lots of images with the oldest revisions missing 21:35:14 that's cuz they're before they were recorded, I guess. 21:35:15 AnMaster: image undelete is relatively recent 21:35:20 ah 21:35:22 as in, only a few years old 21:35:28 maybe 3 21:35:42 ais523, so what happened with those old revisions of it? 21:36:18 well, there was a server crash which lost the entire deleted-stuff archives several years ago 21:36:38 "Currently Wikipedia does not allow or provide facilities to download all Images." 21:36:40 also, deleting images used to just delete the image, although the metadata stayed in the article deleted-revision archives 21:36:44 ais523, check the thumbnails in the history of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vector_Video_Standards2.svg 21:36:48 and then try those links 21:36:50 why? 21:36:52 ais523, tell me what happened there 21:37:02 ais523, I get 403 Forbidden for old ones 21:37:12 Internet archive seems to be about 3 petabytes nowadays, and growing "about 100 terabytes per month"; it's nice that the petabyte gets some use too. 21:37:48 what about google's "cached pages" archive? 21:38:08 AnMaster: I'm not entirely sure what's going on there 21:38:33 ais523, well tell some wp devs or something about this issue? 21:38:34 :/ 21:38:43 well,* 21:39:06 AnMaster: I'm sure it isn't their top priorit 21:39:08 *priority 21:39:13 sure 21:39:21 if you want to, email wikitech-l 21:39:24 ais523, but I have seen this on lots of images 21:39:30 ais523, at what domain? 21:39:33 which is a reasonable place to ask stupid questions 21:39:35 Haven't seen google speaking about their size. But there's one estimate (in wp) that global Internet traffic in one month is "5 to 8 exabytes". 21:39:35 wikitech-l@example.com 21:39:38 or what? 21:39:45 you need to subscribe first 21:39:51 see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=WP:ML 21:39:58 I think there's a link to wikitech-l on there 21:40:16 http://www.mushkin.com/doc/products/memory_detail.asp?id=745 ← this is the most expensive ram evar 21:40:42 you need to subscribe first <-- meh 21:40:45 :( 21:41:03 you could also try asking on-wiki at [[WP:VPT]] 21:41:12 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=WP:VPT 21:41:21 ehird, the domain name says it all :D 21:41:30 AnMaster: wu 21:41:30 t 21:41:43 the devs don't look there very often, but you get lots of other technically minded people there asking questions 21:41:50 so they can often end up answering each other's questions 21:42:30 ehird, oh misread 21:42:34 I read "munchkin" 21:44:28 Prediction: RAM will get so fast and large in coming years that they'll need fans. 21:44:48 ehird, I have already seen RAM with fans 21:44:52 Wat. 21:44:53 not common, but still 21:44:53 me too 21:44:54 Srsly? 21:44:55 ehird: I have Mushkin's DDR2 Redline (not sure if I told you that already so here you go) 21:44:57 yes 21:45:13 Deewiant: Good, are they? 21:45:33 Beats me, I have nothing to compare to 21:45:43 :-D 21:45:51 ehird, anyway how can you have missed ram with fans... 21:45:56 They're better than the Kingston SDR I had before 21:46:03 AnMaster: My little bubble of sanity. 21:46:11 Or hmm, it might have been DDR1 21:46:12 But anyhoo 21:46:18 Soon there'll be fans on fans. 21:46:33 :o 21:46:34 I've seen that too. 21:46:39 :D 21:46:41 ¬_¬ 21:46:41 Asztal, where 21:46:53 :P 21:47:18 Asztal builds spaceships for a living 21:47:40 haha 21:48:28 ehird, I have also seen chipsets with their own fans 21:48:39 not sure if it was south or north birdige 21:48:40 We should just make a fan-powered computer. 21:48:41 bridge* 21:48:49 -!- impomatic has joined. 21:48:54 ehird, how would that work... 21:49:07 Hi :-) 21:49:14 ehird, oh you mean air streams instead of electricity... 21:49:14 Any news about BF Joust? 21:49:20 AnMaster: Right! 21:49:20 for the logic 21:49:32 Your computer is just a tangled mass of many hundreds of tiny fans. 21:49:39 With little bobbles as the memory. 21:49:51 bobbles... 21:49:53 what is that 21:49:59 Bobbles of plastic. 21:50:00 Little balls. 21:50:02 ah 21:50:19 -!- neldoreth has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:50:23 -!- neldoreth has joined. 21:50:50 http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/intel/showdoc.aspx?i=3461 ← stuff about nehalem's puny l2 cache 21:50:51 ehird, how would you register stuff though, I mean you would need electricity to power the fans yes, but risk is you end up with electricity for more stuff unless you are careful 21:50:51 http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm is amusing and news to me 21:50:52 Also, does anyone have access to this paper "Van der Poel, W.L., 1956, 1962: The Logical Principles of Some Simple Computers." 21:51:19 AnMaster: just have an external power supply thing, so that it's agnostic to how you power the fans 21:51:29 There's that MONIAC thing, though it's not exactly very programmable. 21:51:40 ehird, hm 21:51:53 ehird, can you would out a logic in this? 21:51:58 FireFly, MONIAC? 21:51:59 err 21:52:00 fizzie, ^ 21:52:14 Just wikipediafy it. I can't move my mouse, X will crash. :p 21:52:44 And I've found a OISC which I can't find described anywhere. 21:52:53 Just wikipediafy it. I can't move my mouse, X will crash. :p <-- wut 21:53:05 impomatic, oh... details 21:53:39 ah 21:53:41 found it 21:53:55 fizzie, so this is like that think in "Making money" by TP? 21:54:08 Yes, that book is mentioned in the wp page. 21:54:39 and for once I thought he actually made something up, "nothing can be this crazy in the real world" 21:55:10 moniac cheats 21:55:12 it's too precise! 21:55:19 we just want shaped metal grids and fans. 21:55:20 Found as in it already existed in the Redcode instruction set, but no-one realised it's Turing complete by itself! 21:55:53 impomatic, details 21:59:08 i'd like to run page rank on wikipeida 21:59:23 Corewar's DJN instruction. DJN A,B will subtract 1 from memory location B and jump to A if the result at location B is non-zero 21:59:27 bsmntbombdood, what do you mean. 21:59:37 impomatic: that's just subleq, minorly tweaked 21:59:40 what do you mean what do i mean? 21:59:50 * AnMaster was just about to say what ehird said 22:00:10 no, that isn't subleq 22:00:15 minorly? 22:00:23 bsmntbombdood, manually rank each page or what 22:00:25 kinda like C is a minorly tweaked potato 22:00:29 subleq does subtractions 22:00:31 :-D 22:00:34 whereas DJN does decrements 22:00:42 subleq's 3-arg IIRC, DJN is 2-arg 22:00:44 AnMaster: YES I AM GOING TO MANUALLY RANK EACH PAGE IN WIKIPEDIA 22:00:46 minor = instead of subtracting N, decrement 22:00:50 bsmntbombdood: <3 22:00:53 page rank as in google 22:00:58 * AnMaster agrees with ehird here 22:01:03 about minor 22:01:08 I wouldn't call that minor 22:01:16 kinda like C is a minorly tweaked potato <-- C minor or C major 22:01:22 that's like calling a replacement of BF's + with genuine addition minor 22:01:49 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 22:02:07 except it's in the other direction, which imo makes it less minor. 22:02:12 I'd call that minor as well :-P 22:02:13 ais523, isn't subleq using a immediate rather than a memory address for number to substraction 22:02:24 if so, it is very minor indeed 22:02:27 AnMaster: No 22:02:30 AnMaster: subtract != decrement 22:02:31 Deewiant, ah ok 22:02:36 that's a big difference in any OISC 22:02:44 ais523: genuine addition can trivially do increment, increment can't trivially do addition 22:02:50 oklopol: agreed 22:03:10 → 22:03:25 i'm confused 22:03:56 been there 22:04:30 ehird: do you still play Nibbles 22:04:32 ? 22:06:45 -!- M0ny has quit ("PEW PEW"). 22:09:06 hm ↑ is easy on this keyboard layout, never knew that before 22:09:15 ←↓→↑ 22:10:22 pagelinks.sql.gz is only 2 gb 22:10:39 so that's 2 gigabytes, /compressed/? 22:10:43 yeah 22:12:37 i don't know how to parse this format though 22:15:56 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 22:16:15 ais523: i vaguely recall some subleq variant that used an accumulator instead of the first argument, so only had two 22:16:49 What's Nibbles? 22:17:07 impomatic: a killer app for Linux, IMO 22:17:13 It's not a trivial variant when it comes to runtimes ;-) 22:17:13 it's basically multiplayer Snake 22:17:28 where you can go around killing each other, in addition to just getting the things you're meant to get 22:17:35 56000 cycles for a MOV 22:17:40 ^bf <,.!? 22:17:41 ? 22:17:58 ^bf ,<.!a 22:17:58 heh 22:18:15 I wonder if fungot uses a two-way tape? 22:18:15 ais523: gui programming sucks, no one cares ( except for ports), and run 22:18:20 56000? :D 22:18:22 ^ng ,<>.!a 22:18:25 ^bf ,<>.!a 22:18:25 a 22:18:43 seems so 22:19:01 ^bf ,<,>.<.!ab 22:19:02 ab 22:19:15 impomatic: what's the algo? 22:19:29 looks pretty definite 22:19:32 *ive 22:20:53 ^bf ,[>,][<]>[.>]!test 22:20:56 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 22:21:08 oh 22:21:13 ^bf ,[>,]<[<]>[.>]!test 22:21:13 test 22:22:16 ^show scramble 22:22:17 >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2] 22:23:34 MOV A, B = DJN 0, B / DJN 1, TEMP / DJN -1, A / DJN 1, A / DJN 1, B / DJN -2, TEMP 22:23:55 no use testing with fungot then, but i think my first > is unnecessary 22:23:57 oerjan: doesn't intercal have a minuscule instruction set? hm. i got it, thanks a lot 22:24:06 fungot: NO! 22:24:08 oerjan: we are different. it's not actually part of the list ( ( 1), the repl is awkward, but mostly, they all die and ppl start using a combination module, instead loading something else ( no true scientist has only one side of the world 22:24:13 ^styl 22:24:14 ^style 22:24:15 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp 22:24:43 i'd have thought intercal was a dead giveaway :D 22:24:53 ^style ic 22:24:53 Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual) 22:24:57 oh right 22:25:02 fungot: say something 22:25:03 ais523: w016 don't type that so hastily abstained, it doesn't end with `try again'. first, marks where the compiler's looking; that may be wondering what happens if you submit a patch to a variable name and isn't an array must be made about unwoven threads is by changing `senestmax' in version 1.-94.-8 and c-intercal from 0.26 onwards, but must be onespot or twospot value as long as both resulting threads after the statement sh 22:25:21 fungot: that was interesting... 22:25:21 ais523: the way the scoping rules and recursion work), `libick.a', with the same way as `ick_linelabel' and `copying.txt' in the range of options that are sending. however, it will give this error can also be used freely and as a result was too surprised to finish off this appendix, here's the corresponding bit, which holds values of the group of idioms at the start menu then typing `cmd' ( *note e579::) to create a directory c 22:26:26 -!- fizzieds has joined. 22:27:02 "What happens if you submit a patch to a variable name" indeed! 22:28:10 fungot: what is the recommended gui toolkit for intercal? 22:28:11 oerjan: the only way to communicate between unwoven threads is by changing the abstention or reinstatement status of the twospot variable, these guarantees are somewhat complicated, and one of these contexts. the third and fourth, quantum intercal, this check generally makes more sense than explicitly specifying.' rather than letting the compilation process guess everything. in a program decides that it split off from since the 22:28:30 "Quantum intercal" 22:28:34 Sounds scary 22:28:50 ^style 22:28:50 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic* irc lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp 22:28:51 it's the CLC-INTERCAL name for a particular multithreading extension, it isn't true quantum 22:29:08 shouldn't that .' there be a !? 22:29:08 I believe zzo38 does have a true-quantum INTERCAl instruction set, but hasn't implemetned it yet 22:29:10 right. that did not look irc.loggy. 22:29:51 Asztal: no, ! is an abbreviation for '. 22:31:43 !style darwin 22:31:54 ^style darwin 22:31:54 Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy) 22:32:03 ^, not ! 22:32:08 fungot: where did our species come from? 22:32:10 kerlo: difference between field- and house-slaves. cattle, horses, and hybrids. -influence :) male, to surrounding objects, and over a fnord second :) time has created in/ galapagos islands nearly every land-bird, but only a theory on/ origin :) species 22:32:38 Darwin overused emoticons, in my opinion. 22:32:49 our evolution was far more scary than i thought... 22:33:02 "origin :) species" 22:33:08 I didn't know he was a fnord person. 22:33:40 * oerjan assumes kerlo knows how fungot works, and is just joking 22:33:42 oerjan: bud-variations in. -recognition :) varieties :). -hildebrand's experiments on. -flowers :). -p. fnord, ejected. 22:33:45 should fix that particular model. 22:33:56 oh no... Windows Internet Explorer 8. The next Internet has arrived. 22:38:36 Did they actually say that? 22:38:52 Link or it didn't happen. :-P 22:42:12 I saw it quoted somewhere 22:42:20 I'm trying to find the original on Microsoft's website atm 22:43:46 http://www.microsoft.com/uk/windows/internet-explorer/default.aspx# advertises that it's available for "all systems and languages", which can't be right 22:43:59 Why does the result keep clearing? 22:44:00 http://rafb.net/p/YqSa3M23.html 22:44:33 Oh, hm 22:44:57 ais523: Sure it is, it just defines a "system" as something that can run IE 22:46:46 wfw311 runs ie, but i don't think ie8 is available for it either. 22:47:06 version 4 or something was. 22:47:28 Yes, I forgot to add an 8 at the end of my sentence and couldn't be bothered to correct 22:47:38 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1"). 22:47:45 * Sgeo changes the type 22:48:20 Windows for Workgroups 3.11 with Win32s can run IE 5 or maybe even 6, I think... 22:48:39 Hell, a SunOS machine can run IE 5. ;) 22:48:44 meh, can't find it, maybe someone was lying to me 22:49:14 well, 4 or something was what i used 22:49:57 -!- fizzieds has quit ("back to a real computer"). 22:51:38 I managed to crash IE4 using a recursive website 22:51:49 it was a website with frames, and each frame was the website itself 22:51:56 yay... reimplementing basic operations in INTERCAL is FUN! 22:51:57 LYING TO AIS523? WHAT BASTARDS! 22:52:04 it was pretty spectacular; it didn't just take down IE4, but the whole desktop environment too 22:52:06 I think I have addition down... 22:52:20 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Recursion 22:52:21 coppro: are you trying to do it without using the standard library? 22:52:23 :3 22:52:27 ais523: of course! 22:52:39 and are you trying it in pure INTERCAL-72, or with extensions? 22:52:44 CLC-INTERCAL 22:52:46 I managed to get addition down to one line using extensions 22:52:48 it was multithreaded 22:52:50 ah 22:54:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:55:00 one thread did the addition loop, the other monitored to see when the loop had finished 23:00:34 * kerlo adds recursion to his list of things that threads can be used for 23:01:10 (1111) DO NOT WHATEVER YOU DO COME FROM .60110... hehehe 23:01:43 coppro: deliberate obfuscation? 23:01:49 yep 23:01:52 also, .60110 is a pretty large variable name... 23:02:01 yeah, I'm putting all my computed COME FROMS up high 23:02:06 so they don't get interfered with 23:02:39 actually... 23:02:43 safer way of coding 23:03:31 unfortunately I can't obfuscate right there now :( 23:03:42 coppro: you might want to make the second DO part of a larger word, iirc 23:03:52 that works too 23:03:55 yeah, that will work to 23:03:58 but DOCOME isn't a word 23:04:05 i mean before 23:04:27 DO TAKE CARE OF YOUR HAIRDO 23:04:32 *NOT 23:04:46 ah 23:05:09 DO NOT MAKE THAT WEIRDO 23:05:16 coppro: why not use c-intercal? home bred by ais523! :P 23:05:18 admittedly, less insane. 23:05:27 ehird: compatibility between the two improves all the time 23:05:42 CLC-INTERCAL is generally ahead of the curve, because it doesn't worry about things like portability and efficiency 23:06:04 22:10 GregorR: OHHHHHH NO I SEE NOW 23:06:04 22:10 GregorR shoots self. 23:06:05 does ABSTAINING FROM a label prevent COMING FROM it? 23:06:06 22:10 GregorR: I finally understand. 23:06:08 ↑ on forth 23:06:08 coppro: no 23:06:12 good 23:06:13 you can COME FROM a comment, even 23:06:19 (1111) DO NOT, WHATEVER YOU DO, COMMENT OUT THIS LINE 23:06:31 coppro: DO, is a syntax error 23:06:44 it doesn't get executed 23:06:51 ah, ok 23:06:54 just wanted to make sure you knew 23:07:02 since (1111) is the subject of a permanent COME FROM 23:07:33 OK, this is ridiculous: apparently, the Dalai Lama was thinking of changing operating system, and he asked Slashdot for advice: http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/18/2030230&from=rss 23:07:44 "apparently" here means "I'm not at all sure if this is true" 23:08:02 *facepalm* 23:08:08 ais523: amazing. 23:08:18 Where "he" is very indirectly 23:08:21 yes 23:08:48 anyway, be back soon, rebooting after distro upgrade 23:08:54 140,776,32804,1036,544,16390,3072,32780,82176,2564,66056,24832,33028,6272,4136,2088 23:08:55 erm 23:08:56 the dalai lama is pretty awesome. 23:08:59 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/rnd_tonematrix.htm 23:08:59 -!- ais523 has quit ("rebooting after distro upgrade"). 23:10:54 it is essentially less difficult to write exploits for Mac OS/Linux than it is for Windows, given the many anti-exploitation mechanisms 23:10:58 dear god. 23:11:09 how retarded 23:11:20 what the... 23:11:26 from that /. article 23:11:27 how is that a syntax error? 23:11:36 coppro: because the DO starts a new statement 23:11:38 whitespace is irrelevant 23:11:43 no, a different thing 23:11:50 oh 23:11:53 PLEASE DO :1110 <- ":¥1110 ¢ '#0 ~ #65535'" ~ .1110 23:12:46 ehird: are there not many anti-exploitation mechanisms, or are the ones present ineffective? 23:13:05 kerlo: The fact that you have to even ask is mouth-gawpingly ridiculous. 23:14:04 Are you going to answer the question, or just Joseph Smith me? 23:14:27 kerlo: why is the sky blue? 23:14:42 kerlo: I want all the details, to the subatomic level. 23:15:28 "If *I* was in charge of the DL's computer, I wouldn't put on *only* Linux or *only* Windows or what have you. I think the DL needs a multiboot machine, and would really appreciate it if you tried to make him one with everything. " 23:15:28 any answers to why my statement is a syntax error? 23:15:30 ahahhahahahah 23:15:33 *groan* 23:15:36 coppro: ask ais when he returns 23:15:42 I asked you a this-or-that question, not an all-the-details question. 23:15:46 :( 23:16:17 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:16:20 kerlo: you should talk in horn clauses all the time 23:16:21 wb ais523 23:16:24 ais523: "it is essentially less difficult to write exploits for Mac OS/Linux than it is for Windows, given the many anti-exploitation mechanisms Microsoft has embedded in the last years" 23:16:27 — that /. article 23:16:33 also, 23:16:34 23:15 ehird: "If *I* was in charge of the DL's computer, I wouldn't put on *only* Linux or *only* Windows or what have you. I think the DL needs a multiboot machine, and would really appreciate it if you tried to make him one with everything. " 23:16:37 also 23:16:40 23:11 coppro: PLEASE DO :1110 <- ":¥1110 ¢ '#0 ~ #65535'" ~ .1110 23:16:44 he wants to know why it's a syntax error 23:16:59 there's nothing obviously wrong 23:17:02 is it encoded corectly? 23:17:19 passing UTF-8 to CLC-INTERCAL confuses it, you have to encode the input as Latin-1 23:17:20 An analogous question is perhaps "Your truck is stopped directly below an overpass. Is it stuck, or did you run out of gas while delivering it?" 23:17:25 or as EBCDIC, or Baudot, or Hollerith 23:17:32 OH, crap. stupid editor 23:17:37 reset the encoding... blargh 23:17:58 just edit in EBCDIC, that's sufficiently different from everything sane that it'll be obvious when it goes wrong 23:20:46 "The new malloc_info function therefore does not export a structure. Instead it exports the information in a self-describing data structure. Nowadays the preferred way to do this is via XML." 23:20:47 kerlo: The fact that you have to even ask is mouth-gawpingly ridiculous. <<< I don't see what's stupid about asking whether windows really is more vulnerable than MacOS/Linux, if they were targeted the same amount 23:20:48 — Ulrich Drepper 23:21:03 oerjan: it's just patently false 23:21:09 the quote from the article is untrue through and through 23:21:11 especially since dalai lama's offices may have been _specifically_ targeted by the chinese 23:21:59 Perfect security: Don't go online 23:22:08 you're so witty Sgeo. 23:26:03 http://www.saveie6.com/ 23:26:13 why would anyone want to do that? 23:26:24 well, museums 23:26:26 ais523: because it's the first of april? 23:26:52 ah, ok 23:28:25 Wonder what anti-exploitation features they are talking about. Presumably not NX and ASLR, as those (especially the NX) have been supported for a while... 23:28:53 Ilari: microsoft told them! 23:29:08 wow 23:29:11 hmm 23:29:13 the amiga 500 had a 7mhz cpu 23:29:21 gahahaha 23:29:32 now my assignment to a two spot is causing problems :( 23:29:57 I don't get http://www.saveie6.com/_img/img_chart_renderspeed.jpg 23:30:21 Sgeo: how fast it animates GIFs 23:30:29 yes, browsers actually differ on that 23:32:29 oh 23:32:33 * coppro sees his mistake 23:32:37 oerjan: maybe you can answer my question, then. 23:32:46 Ilari: not all Linux systems have NX and ASLR on by default 23:33:19 ais523: Linux turns NX on if it's supported by the CPU. 23:33:27 ah, ok 23:33:36 kerlo: erm, no, i'm wondering myself 23:33:38 NX is a ... what that you can't execute? 23:33:38 Stack? 23:33:59 NX on Linux disables code execution on all pages that don't have PROT_EXEC. 23:33:59 NX is a flag on the page stating that it can't be executed from. 23:34:30 Only in existence on recent x86 processors. 23:34:40 (namely, everything that does x86_64.) 23:35:04 Right. 23:35:10 Phooey to that :P 23:35:14 I have heard that there are some X86-64 CPUs that can't do NX. All X86-64s from AMD support it, but some from Intel don't. 23:35:38 Ilari: Their very first ones don't. Said processors were sold for all of a month. 23:36:00 They also, IIRC, had a very poor implementation of x86_64. 23:36:36 * ais523 reports another bug to Ubuntu in the hope that they'll do something about it 23:36:52 X86-64 doesn't support execute without read, right (some other CPU archs do support that)? 23:36:53 what bug? 23:36:57 ais523: just report it to debian 23:37:00 they actually fix stuff 23:37:02 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/363532 23:37:19 ehird: I know, but I don't know what package it's in or if it's Ubuntu-specific, it well might be for this one 23:37:28 I always report straight to Debian if I know the bug's there too 23:37:35 well, even ubuntu-specific bugs tend to be reproducible on debian, no? 23:37:47 only if you have a Debian system with Ubuntu repos to test them on 23:37:53 Ubuntu and Debian should probably merge or something. 23:38:03 And Debian devs won't take responsibility for non-Debian bugs 23:38:28 well, yes, entirely correctly 23:38:35 more to the point the bug might be in an Ubuntu-specific patch 23:38:50 I'd expect a shutdown to cause no system beeps (and possibly a customizable shutdown sound). 23:38:52 The graphical environment and startup/shutdown procedures, etc. are mostly Ubuntu 23:38:57 detailed bug reports are amusing 23:39:13 I've learnt through experience that you should always explain expected behaviour 23:39:19 coppro: I don't think there are many actually Ubuntu-specific programs 23:39:25 just in case the developers fixing it get completely the wrong end of the stick 23:39:29 as in, made just for inclusion in it 23:39:30 not Ubuntu-specific, no 23:40:24 * Sgeo goes to play isketch 23:40:40 yay addition is working 23:41:07 This indicates that the image is probably composed of several images taken at different times (probably in a top secret studio guarded by specially trained aliens working as government agents) 23:41:09 — http://www.stuffucanuse.com/fake_moon_landings/moon_landings.htm 23:41:14 coppro: what algorithm did you use? 23:41:25 coppro: Those were changed a bit and sent upstream. That stuff is in Debian stable these days. ;) 23:41:30 Hilarious 23:41:32 ais523: XOR and AND, looping till the AND gives 0 23:41:44 yep, that's the usual way I think 23:41:57 my loop condition involves .VVVVVVVVvVVVVVV1110 23:47:31 those should all be capital, presumably? 23:47:43 I've done the multiple-unary trick before, although it isn't portable 23:48:03 yeah 23:48:03 I think the standard method, of self-selection, though, is probably both more efficient and almost as clear 23:48:05 it isn't portable? 23:48:08 ais523: you asked about nibbles? 23:48:10 ehird: yes 23:48:14 well, it's not available for my os :P 23:48:17 ah, pity 23:48:22 I have ubuntu in a vm. 23:48:26 I'll start it up. 23:48:27 Why? 23:48:31 I wanted to play you 23:48:35 Sure. 23:48:42 wait, doesn't your internet connection thing ban that? 23:48:43 also, the AI I submitted to Gnome for Nibbles is now the official one 23:48:47 ehird: different connection 23:48:48 ais523: What do you mean it isn't portable? 23:48:49 As a warning, I'm terrible. 23:48:50 that's why I wanted to do it now 23:48:58 coppro: J-INTERCAL doesn't like it 23:49:03 oh 23:49:05 and in C-INTERCAL, you have to phrase it differently 23:49:10 as "VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV.V1110" 23:49:15 hrm 23:49:18 that works in CLC-INTERCAL too, btw 23:49:23 yeah, but it's deprecated 23:49:26 note that the quotes are required 23:50:13 ehird: do you have a NAT at your end/ 23:50:19 I do over here, so you'd better host the game 23:50:21 if you don't 23:50:24 ais523: My ports are all blocked up, but I can open them manually. 23:50:36 5688 is the port for gnome-games, I think 23:50:38 What is nibbles? 23:50:44 coppro: killer app for Linux 23:50:47 it's multiplayer Snake 23:50:54 awesome, I'm in 23:50:57 ais523: what ports? 23:51:02 5688 23:51:06 ais523: udp or tcp 23:51:16 I don't know offhand, shall I look it up? 23:51:22 both? 23:51:24 I guess TCP 23:51:31 seems likely 23:51:34 that's unlikely, my guess for a game like that is pure TCP 23:51:54 sec, forwarding 23:52:22 what IP should I connect to? 208.78.103.223? 23:52:27 Second. 23:52:30 I'm going to start the host. 23:52:32 As soon as I figure out how. 23:52:33 yep, I'm waiting 23:52:40 * ehird reads manual. 23:53:02 ais523: Uh, I can't find anything about running a server. 23:53:08 neither can I 23:53:19 ah, it's in a different package 23:53:20 ggzd 23:53:22 Ah. 23:53:23 OK. 23:53:27 we can connect via the official server instead if you prefer 23:53:30 Naw. 23:53:43 This way's funner. 23:53:56 I'll have it up in a min. 23:54:39 ais523: try connecting 23:54:46 wow, that was painless 23:54:50 <3 ubuntu 23:55:08 I get "Connection refused" 23:55:13 Guess it is UDP. 23:55:16 yeah 23:55:18 same 23:55:24 Wait. 23:55:27 I'm connected via my bouncer, fools! 23:55:33 ah, what IP, then? 23:55:35 Try 91.105.116.151. 23:55:49 still connection refused 23:55:58 I'll try udp. 23:56:04 I should be on guest connection? 23:56:10 Yes. 23:56:12 kk 23:56:35 Forwarding... 23:56:50 still connection refused 23:56:52 Sec. 23:56:54 I'm not done yet. 23:56:55 but it waited about a second beforehand 23:57:17 Try now. 23:57:26 nope, still connection refused 23:57:30 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH 23:57:32 Okay, second. 23:57:34 I can figs this out. 23:57:51 $ nc 91.105.116.151 5688 23:57:53 (UNKNOWN) [91.105.116.151] 5688 (ggz) : Connection refused 23:58:01 Oh. 23:58:03 decided to try that way too, just in case it was a problem with Nibbles 23:58:03 How queer. 23:58:06 I must have to tweak the config. 23:58:07 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:58:11 try ggz-games-server 23:58:13 package 23:58:20 coppro: I did. 23:58:22 Second. 23:58:24 Here's the config files. 23:58:25 ah 23:59:15 Try now, coppro & ais523. 23:59:25 nope 23:59:27 no 23:59:28 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 23:59:28 still connection refused 23:59:32 Hmm 23:59:35 on nc and from Niibles 23:59:38 Okay, wait, lemme think. 23:59:43 Clearly, it's denying you guys access, right? 23:59:51 yep 23:59:57 OTOH, I can netcat to, say, port 22 23:59:57 So, it's a problem with ggzd.