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00:26:21 <ehird> "(The paradox is alleviated if "interesting" is instead defined objectively: for example, as of November 2008, the smallest natural number that does not have its own Wikipedia entry is 215.)"
00:26:25 <ehird> and now it has one!
00:26:35 <ehird> ... it redirects to 210, though
00:29:35 <ehird> anyone know if there's a defigletizer?
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00:35:26 <ehird> Deewiant: Any googlebomb luck?
00:35:30 <ehird> Results 1 - 10 of about 167 for polytypic ziggurat. (0.44 seconds)
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00:36:57 <ehird> GregorR: which covers 210-219
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02:56:49 <GregorR> "I lost 15 pounds in a fortnight using acai"
02:57:08 <Slereah> You lost the ability to use the metric system
02:57:35 <Slereah> Are you going to throw horsepower and faraday in the mix?
02:58:00 <GregorR> 'twas a spam subject line :P
02:58:08 <GregorR> Horsepower is perhaps the stupidest measurement ever.
02:58:26 <GregorR> Because horses are so consistent?
02:58:26 <Slereah> It's from an era where that was a well known frame of reference
02:58:49 <Slereah> Do you know what a mean value is
02:59:04 <GregorR> It's a value that doesn't treat its friends respectfully.
03:00:33 <GregorR> Fine, I'll change my statement, from
03:00:37 <GregorR> <GregorR> Horsepower is perhaps the stupidest measurement ever.
03:00:41 <GregorR> <GregorR> Horsepower is perhaps the stupidest measurement presently.
04:06:27 <calamari> I'll see your horsepower and raise you a library of congress
04:14:14 <kerlo> The helen is a pretty stupid measurement.
04:15:12 <kerlo> Then again, nobody uses it.
04:17:27 <kerlo> It's the amount of beauty required to launch a thousand ships and burn the topless towers of Ilium.
04:18:45 <kerlo> It's considered ill-defined due to the passing of an ordinance requiring all towers of Ilium to be fully clothed.
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06:30:03 <kerlo> You know, I once wanted to write a compiler from C to Subleq, but I think it would be easier to compile from Haskell instead.
06:44:21 <GregorR> It would be easier (although far from easy) to write one from MIPS.
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10:31:57 <oklofok> ef is such an elegant language
10:39:52 <oklofok> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/ef.txt <<< i added some elegance. god it's elegant.
10:40:28 <oklofok> it used to be about the fixed points, but i'm thinking i like the supersmart pointers even better.
10:45:19 <AnMaster> GOOD: 2k ;;;5 executes 5 thrice
10:45:33 <AnMaster> and that p writes something between the k and the p
10:45:45 <AnMaster> what will be the next instruction to execute after the k finishes
10:45:51 <oklofok> btw AnMaster did you see how elegant it was?
10:46:05 <oklofok> don't you just love the intricacies of how the pointers work.
10:47:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: k specs say that the fetch happens once, not between every execution
10:48:29 <Deewiant> And when you're done executing the k you move on as normal.
10:48:31 <oklofok> AnMaster: so it skips from first to second, then proceeds to third, skips to first, proceeds to second, skips to third and then moves on the 5 and executes?
10:48:59 <oklofok> that's one sick test case.
10:49:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so k will execute the instruction p wrote next then
10:49:58 <GreaseMonkey> my thinking: if you p'd on the p, it would probably run the p x amount of times and then it would land on what the p has next cycle
10:50:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes it makes sense. But I think it is actually UNDEF.
10:51:16 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, they are easy to implement too.
10:51:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, a lot of k is somewhat UNDEF according to the specs; I'm including that e-mail exchange with Pressey into the specs here
10:51:22 <GreaseMonkey> i mean for funge-109... what benefit would it have?
10:51:50 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, a bit more well speced, I'm reworking it currently.
10:51:53 <Deewiant> The benefit is that you can write spaces on top of characters with p thus removing them from the string
10:52:22 <Deewiant> Or at least, *a* benefit is :-P
10:53:01 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, so outputting a binary file would be impossible?
10:53:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, he means "SGML NULs"
10:53:38 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, why not the spaces.
10:53:52 <GreaseMonkey> because if you needed two spaces, you have to shove a in
10:54:09 <oklofok> btw is ; an actual command at all? i mean shouldn't 2k ;;;5 execute ; twice, and then do 5 just once?
10:54:22 <Deewiant> GreaseMonkey: "foo "::::"bar" <- "foo bar"
10:54:34 <Deewiant> oklofok: ; and space are markers, not instructions.
10:54:37 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, isn't understood by funge.
10:54:53 <oklofok> Deewiant: right, i thought it might be something like that
10:55:45 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, are you just trying to skip the needed two line logic of handling multiple spaces?
10:56:06 <GreaseMonkey> nope, as this would probably also take up as much code
10:56:18 <fizzie> I don't like k. Did it go so that "2kX" executes X thrice (because the k executes it twice, and then it is done normally once), but "0kX" somehow skips X completely?
10:56:52 <oklofok> that's why i didn't get it
10:56:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes. 109 will fix that
10:57:02 <Deewiant> The rules make sense, they're just nonsensical.
10:57:05 <AnMaster> so the instruction after is always skipped.
10:57:13 <GreaseMonkey> my reasoning for this is if someone wants to attack "foo ":::"bar", then they may get a quotation mark
10:57:48 <oklofok> Deewiant: they make sense kinda like assuming undef doesn't crash the interp makes sense, perhaps?
10:58:09 <Deewiant> oklofok: No, they make a different kind of sense
10:58:14 <fizzie> The rules are also very interpretative. The part of 0k skipping is written as "Note that some instructions don't make much sense within the context of k unless you include zero as one of the possibilities for how many times the instruction is repeated. For example, no matter how many times after the first time k execute ^, the result is the same. However, you may pass a zero count to k, and the ^ instruction will not be executed; this can be a valuable behavi
10:58:21 <oklofok> Deewiant: i thought they make a rather similar kind of sense.
10:58:41 <Deewiant> The k specs aren't very interpretative IMO
10:58:53 <Deewiant> On the contrary, you have to read them 100% literally to get it right :-P
10:59:13 <fizzie> But that's "valuable behaviour" even without the skipping, if you assume the last "will not be executed" means "will not be executed by k"; I mean, you can do 0k^ and it would turn up either at k or the ^, depending on the input.
10:59:31 <fizzie> (That is, if k would never skip the next command.)
10:59:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, except. C. Pressy answered on this with his own small test suite thingy.
11:00:02 <fizzie> Why do you always write the surname worng? Pressey.
11:00:59 <AnMaster> also, please don't complicate it further.
11:01:14 <AnMaster> that means lots of interpreters have to change *again*
11:01:15 * oklofok complicates it further: pressaye
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11:03:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually I don't agree about: 'v041k ;;;p
11:03:44 <AnMaster> assuming that is the whole program
11:04:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes true, but it also puts one on the first ; as far as I can see
11:04:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the 1 is a parameter to k isn't it?
11:05:05 <Deewiant> And then you call p with (4,0) and 'v'
11:05:51 <Deewiant> That puts it on the middle ; which means it gets skipped.
11:06:06 <AnMaster> I think k will resume at p after
11:08:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, where does it say it won't
11:08:10 <AnMaster> I agree there is nothing explicitly saying it *will*
11:08:19 <AnMaster> but it makes just as much sense
11:08:25 <Deewiant> When you execute an instruction, you continue to the next one as normal.
11:08:32 <Deewiant> You don't arbitrarily skip instructions.
11:08:41 <fizzie> Since the p is executed "at k", I personally think it stands to reason that it's from there, and after the execution of k (and indirectly p), that it continues to look for the next operation.
11:09:08 <fizzie> With that always-skip-the-next-instruction k, it would make sense to continue from the p onwards, though.
11:09:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, ok that argument makes sense I guess.
11:10:05 <fizzie> It's just sad that with so many k-related things it is possible to write sensible-sounding arguments for contradictory things.
11:12:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however ccbi seems to skip it too.
11:16:39 <AnMaster> nor does cfunge it seems in fact.
11:16:47 <AnMaster> the code was just too confusing :D
11:17:51 <AnMaster> in other news the thread supervisor is almost working in efunge now. Only issue is that it quit doesn't work in that branch atm.
12:07:23 * kerlo ponders bit widths and the amounts of memory they can access
12:09:25 <kerlo> 1-bit: 2 bits. 2-bit: 1 byte. 4-bit: 8 bytes. 8-bit: 256 bytes. 16-bit: 128 kilobytes. 32-bit: 16 gigabytes. 64-bit: 32 whatever-comes-after-peta-bytes.
12:09:45 <kerlo> Good to know if you're writing Subleq programs, maybe.
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12:29:27 <AnMaster> http://omploader.org/vMWw1Zw <-- fancy supervision tree for efunge :D
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13:32:30 <ais523> and what's that a link to?
13:32:33 <ais523> I'm on a public computer atm
13:32:40 <ais523> so I /especially/ don't want to click links at random
13:32:45 <AnMaster> ais523, of efunge supervision tree
13:33:22 <ais523> I still think this is an insane idea, but I don't begrudge you for it
13:33:30 <ais523> it's only slightly more insane than porting INTERCAL to embedded systems
13:34:10 <ais523> just, distributed Befunge
13:34:39 <AnMaster> ais523, ah that. Well that is a step after I get it working on a single node. Btw <0.1.2> are erlang pids, for the unnamed processes.
13:34:58 <AnMaster> just that tree shows names if there are any
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13:37:35 <AnMaster> ais523, and distributed would just be 1) make sure right server run on the right node (you need all IO to be channeled through one server on one node for example) 2) some changes to funge space. 3) possibly similar changes as for funge space to some other daemons.
13:38:10 <AnMaster> it would be some work, but not infeasible.
13:39:09 <AnMaster> ais523, currently I'm trying to make the thread supervisor work correctly. It has some issues atm.
13:39:09 <ais523> I think you spelt it correctly
13:39:29 <ais523> strange, the spellchecker here doesn't like "spelt". Or "spellchecker". It doesn't mind "infeasible", though.
13:44:29 * ais523 drops a link to http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/Z/Zawinskis-Law.html in here for ehird
13:44:45 <ais523> I wonder if the GNU people knew of that law when they went and bloated hello(1)?
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13:49:20 <AnMaster> in that case it is extra ironic...
13:49:56 <AnMaster> Which could read mail in version something or later
13:50:11 <AnMaster> ais523, you seriously didn't know who jwz was?
13:50:26 <ais523> err, no, I tend not to care about names all that much
13:50:29 <AnMaster> I mean he is as famous as djb. By initials.
13:50:39 <ais523> I only vaguely know who djb is
13:50:51 <ais523> responsible for djbdns
13:51:08 <ais523> and possibly qmail, although I'm not entirely sure whether that was him or someone else without looking it up
13:51:11 <AnMaster> djb: author of qmail, djbdns, and a lot more. Famous enough to be known by initials.
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14:27:00 <oklopol> wait actually i don't care, djbdns sounds like something dns related, not that i can think of anything dns related that could be complicated enough to be famous.
14:27:04 <AnMaster> oklopol, a secure and stable MTA.
14:27:15 <AnMaster> oklopol, djbdns is a dns server.
14:28:00 <Deewiant> ais523: You probably had an American dictionary on that spellchecker.
14:28:16 <ais523> Deewiant: ah, possibly
14:28:18 <oklopol> okay, both of those sound incredibly trivial
14:28:31 <Deewiant> ais523: Since they'd write it as "spelled"
14:28:33 * AnMaster is stuck in a twisty maze of licenses all different.
14:28:52 <ais523> well, BSD is compatible with more or less anything
14:29:11 <oklopol> AnMaster: remember to keep your left hand on the wall
14:29:13 <AnMaster> ais523, GPLv3 and EPL (which is similar to MPL)
14:29:23 <ais523> ugh, that's a rather nasty mic
14:29:30 <oklopol> unless it's an infinite maze, then you know iterative deepening.
14:29:37 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and I'm wondering if it is legal.
14:30:23 <ais523> probably not, unless the EPL's terms are a subset of the GPLv3's
14:30:29 <oklopol> does maze actually convey a planar graph btw, or is it more general?
14:31:20 <ais523> you can have nonplanar mazes, although they're more difficult
14:31:23 <AnMaster> ais523, well you are allowed to link a GPL program to closed source libc aren't you? So as long as I use EPL as a standard library there should be no issue. (And I do use erlang's standard library, there is no way around that.)
14:31:25 <ais523> Enigma 1.1 has a 4D maze in it
14:31:46 <ais523> AnMaster: ooh, the GPL with closed source libc is a huge raging argument
14:31:49 <oklopol> also 3d and 4d mazes are both arbitrary graphs.
14:31:58 <ais523> oklopol: I think nonplanar mazes are still considered mazes
14:32:14 <AnMaster> ais523, issue now is, the standard erlang supervisor module doesn't cut it for the thread supervisor. I need to customise some internals for it to work properly.
14:32:22 <AnMaster> So I need to distribute a modified version of it.
14:33:48 <oklopol> well, i guess what i said was rather obvious, planar is pretty much defined by being a 2d-maze, and not bigger
14:33:58 <oklopol> bigger in amount of dimensions
14:34:02 <AnMaster> ais523, hm... how else would you run open source apps on windows or OS X. I mean you clearly have to link them, at some layer, kernel32.dll, syscalls or whatever, to non-open source.
14:34:04 <oklopol> i love how clearly i can say things
14:34:56 <AnMaster> <ais523> Enigma 1.1 has a 4D maze in it <-- So it changes with time. But what is the 3D bit about.
14:35:07 <AnMaster> I didn't know Enigma could do 3D.
14:35:15 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure he meant spatial dimensions
14:35:25 <ais523> AnMaster: no, 4 spatial dimensions
14:35:26 <ais523> the diagonals are used for the other two
14:35:29 <oklopol> god i hate it when people thing the fourth dimensions is time
14:35:40 <ais523> and there are lots of teleports involved in order to make everything link up correctly
14:35:47 <oklopol> that's retarded, even in physics, you should call it time.
14:36:20 <AnMaster> ais523, hm one way around would be those rare "as a special exception you are allowed to link ..."
14:36:28 <fizzie> oklopol: There's a "4D theater" in the Linnanmäki amusement park; the "fourth dimension" means they spray water on your face and vibrate the seats.
14:36:34 <AnMaster> ais523, but I would need a lawyer to write one.
14:36:37 <oklopol> blah, i can't articulate what i was about to say
14:36:51 <oklopol> but i had this point, maybe i'll tell it later.
14:37:06 <oklopol> fizzie: clearly that's 5 dimensions
14:37:08 <fizzie> (And the third comes from those shutter 3D glasses. Or maybe polarized, I've forgotten now.)
14:37:23 <oklopol> those are better described by a fourth dimensions than time is
14:37:51 <fizzie> Well, the seat-movements need more than one dimension.
14:38:08 <ais523> AnMaster: is the GPLv3 code yours?
14:38:36 <ais523> why not use a different licence, like the EPL itself?
14:38:58 <AnMaster> ais523, For the same reason you wouldn't use MPL?
14:39:00 <oklopol> fizzie: actually it's probably the "much vibration" - "no vibration" scale that's relevant.
14:39:26 <oklopol> and water is clearly separate
14:40:47 <fizzie> oklopol: Well, I dunno; it's not really "vibrate", more like "move around". I just accidentally used a bad word to describe it. Though I don't really recall exactly how it moved; it's possible it was only able to move forward/backward along one dimension, and not up/down or anything.
14:42:39 <fizzie> "4D coaster" is a type of a roller coaster, but I can't find out what sort. It seems it has something to do with rotating seats there too.
14:48:42 <fizzie> "A 4-D film (sometimes written 4D film) is a marketing term that describes an entertainment presentation system combining a 3-D film with physical effects in the theatre, which occur in synchronization with the film. Because the physical effects are expensive to set up, 4-D films are currently presented only at special venues such as theme parks and amusement parks."
14:48:50 <fizzie> Oh, it's an official term; it has a Wikipedia page.
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14:51:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, an abuse of that term.
14:53:52 <ehird> 12:49 AnMaster: in that case it is extra ironic...
14:54:00 <ehird> He supports kitchen sinks.
14:54:02 <ehird> Also, XEmacs too, man.
14:54:08 <ehird> He was there at the start of Lucid Emacs.
14:54:12 <ehird> 12:44 ais523 drops a link to http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/Z/Zawinskis-Law.html in here for ehird
14:54:20 <ehird> Plz to be linking to non-jargon-file sources in futu
14:54:36 <ais523> do you hate the Jargon File, or something?
14:54:46 <ehird> ais523: I hate what esr's done to it.
14:54:56 <ehird> I know you would be surprised to read from someone relatively unknown to you before. My name is Major Larry Downs, a member of the U.S. ARMY USARPAC Medical Team, which was deployed to Iraq in the beginning of the war in Iraq.
14:55:02 <ehird> I would like to share some highly personal classified information about my personal experience and role which I played in the pursuit of my career serving under the U.S 1st Armored which was at the fore-front of the war in Iraq.
14:56:54 <AnMaster> ehird, where did credit card come into it
14:57:32 <ehird> AnMaster: nowhere, he just told me to read a bbc article and reply saying I understood
14:57:38 <ehird> a rather bizarre start to a scam.
14:59:58 <ehird> On the subject of jwz,
15:00:03 <ehird> http://jwz.livejournal.com/1040129.html
15:00:15 <ehird> His fingers have the power to melt alt keys on $500 keyboards.
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15:04:27 <Sgeo> Ok, I have become a twitter addict
15:04:51 <ehird> I can imagine it now. "Became a twitter addict." "PSOX." "Something AWFUL is happening on Second Life!"
15:05:11 <ehird> "Combined PSOX and Second Life." "Died happy."
15:06:23 <ehird> parseski={!x:_;(!x=='` & ! x+1 & ! x+2 : (class[])) => ! x..x+2 = [! x+1,! x+2]}
15:06:27 <ehird> oklopol: that's amazing
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15:12:37 <AnMaster> ehird, um, "died happy"... did it happen when he tried to combine all three.
15:13:01 <ehird> AnMaster: he died happy in posting the tweet to twitter about how he combined psox and second life
15:13:09 <ehird> so he did combine all three in the "Combined..." message.
15:13:25 <ehird> Today on impractical computing environments: http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2009/04/one_step_closer_to_a_holodeck.php
15:14:03 <AnMaster> ehird, how did he fit that in 140 chars...
15:14:13 <ehird> 15:04 ehird: I can imagine it now. "Became a twitter addict." "PSOX." "Something AWFUL is happening on Second Life!"
15:14:13 <ehird> 15:05 ehird: "Combined PSOX and Second Life." "Died happy."
15:14:19 <ehird> nothing there's over 140 characters
15:16:15 <ehird> Reading stuff about cpu-specific asm optimization is fun.
15:16:36 <ehird> Especially when it's about things like the Nehalem. We must hyperoptimise to save a nanosecond on this top of the range CPU!
15:16:39 <AnMaster> ehird, what optimization in specific.
15:16:49 <ehird> the article and comments of http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8fqgy/cmov_instruction_a_bad_idea_on_outoforder_cpus/
15:16:59 <ehird> AnMaster: what's that supposed to mean
15:17:25 <Deewiant> I read that a while back but used CMOV in dobelx64 anyway because it saves a few bytes
15:17:58 <ehird> AnMaster: but srsly wuzzat supposed to mean
15:18:22 <AnMaster> my own tests show cmov helps in some places.
15:18:25 <Deewiant> jne x; mov foo, bar; x: is a byte or two bigger than cmovne foo, bar
15:18:32 <ehird> I meant 15:16 AnMaster: Nehalem hah
15:18:45 <AnMaster> ehird, I'll let you figure that out yourself.
15:18:55 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, "AMD didn't make it, it sucks?"
15:19:18 <ehird> well I'm not telepathic yet sorry
15:22:24 <ehird> AnMaster: no hints?
15:29:56 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I have seen icc put cmov in code optimised for core2 at least.
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15:30:12 <AnMaster> so clearly even intel thinks it makes sense sometimes.
15:30:17 <ehird> if you read the comments that was acknowledged
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15:39:36 <AnMaster> ehird, personally I tend to leave it to the compiler.
15:40:04 <ehird> "Reported estimates indicate that transistors at these dimensions are significantly affected by quantum tunneling."
15:40:05 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11_nanometer
15:40:29 <AnMaster> ehird, how much is intel down to currently
15:41:16 <ehird> "however, Intel has already given some indications as to the nature of its process and its rough timing for 2009.[4]"
15:41:23 <ehird> Deewiant: not public
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15:41:26 <ehird> just in development
15:41:39 <Deewiant> But no complete processors, I think
15:41:41 <ehird> I guess the last few steps will be the hardest
15:41:52 <ehird> They're brushing against weird physics from what I can tell
15:42:02 <Deewiant> AMD's planning on releasing 32nm stuff in 2010
15:42:32 <ehird> We just need negative length chips.
15:42:38 <ehird> Install an Intel, get some room space back.
15:42:47 <AnMaster> ehird, the first comment is confusing. I don't see why swapping operands affected the result so much.
15:43:04 <ehird> AnMaster: branch prediction
15:43:12 <ehird> that's on a pentium 4
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15:43:21 <Deewiant> In other news: TRDS doesn't work in CCBI 2 and I have no fricking clue why
15:43:38 <ehird> i suppose the pentium 4 gnomes get confused if you give them it in in the other order
15:43:51 <ehird> and run around aimlessly for a few microseconds, bumping into each other
15:44:31 <oklofok> ehird: the ski parser works by taking the fixed point of the trivial parsings `(parsed)(parsed)
15:44:47 <oklofok> i find it a lovely paradigm
15:46:45 <oklofok> (it doesn't actually work yet, it'd need a small modification, you'd need to wrap the actual combinators in lists first, but that'd take me multiple minutes, so i'll just leave it broken for now)
15:47:05 <ehird> this track messes with my ears
15:47:22 <AnMaster> ehird, about worn out keys. How is your keyboard.
15:47:31 <ehird> AnMaster: I've never worn out a single key.
15:47:35 <oklofok> basically the correction is x:chars=>[x]
15:47:43 <ehird> Then again, I switch keyboard every few years (unintentionally)
15:47:46 <AnMaster> On mine many of the keys lack text nowdays, but no such dents as on that pic...
15:48:14 <ehird> This keyboard is a year or so old; I dropped my old version - which was identical 'cept UK not US layout - and it wouldn't turn on, so I got a replacement free from apple
15:49:00 <AnMaster> wouldn't turn on... Oh right one of the fanged ones...
15:49:09 <oklofok> my ubuter's keyboard is completely broken, but it has experienced pretty much everything from cups of coffee to frustrated humans using it as a bat.
15:49:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Bluetooth, yah.
15:49:24 <oklofok> well not completely, more like a tiny bit, but enough to be annoying to use
15:49:38 <ehird> I just want wireless power ;-)
15:49:48 <oklofok> control and left key used to be broken, but control got fixed recently when i accidentally jumped on the kb
15:50:50 <oklofok> "I dropped my old version - which was identical 'cept UK not US layout - and it wouldn't turn on" <<< what kind of crap do they sell in uk
15:50:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I just fail to see what happened to jwz's Alt key... an accident with a solder iron maybe.
15:51:09 <oklofok> first thing i do with my new things is make sure dropping them doesn't break them
15:51:13 <ehird> AnMaster: He uses emacs for everything and he's had the kb for 8 years
15:51:21 <AnMaster> ehird, it seems the top of the key cap is rather thick on that keyboard...
15:51:25 <ehird> And he's been typing for decades
15:51:34 <ehird> So just veeeeeeery heavy abuse
15:52:02 <ehird> AnMaster: nails scratching keys while moving around from the home row?
15:52:11 <ehird> i'll wager c and v look similar
15:52:31 <ehird> AnMaster: also, C-n
15:52:40 <ehird> maybe he hits C-m instead of enter, less movement
15:52:48 <oklofok> left and right hand movements aren't necessarily the same for keyboards, especially as they're not at all symmetric
15:53:27 <oklofok> for rightie, when moving down, you ..contract your fingers, for leftie, you more like turn your wrist
15:53:33 <oklofok> because of the way the keys are positioned
15:54:12 <fizzie> From this UltraX flat some printings have disappeared; ":" is completely gone, ";" almost, and there's only a "/" left in "A", and the left half of "S". Oh, and "M" has turned into a "V".
15:54:20 <oklofok> hmm, actually probably not.... but still.
15:54:54 <oklofok> my laptop's is in perfect shape. how embarrassing, this is an old computer.
15:55:29 <oklofok> have you heard the sex pee joke yet?
15:55:33 <ehird> (:P is rather more worrying; peeing directly out of your colon.)
15:55:33 <AnMaster> ehird, if he use C-n rather than arrow keys.
15:55:38 <ehird> oklofok: oh man is it to do with parentheses
15:56:23 <AnMaster> there is a reason I always include the - in S-expressions
15:56:32 <oklofok> ehird: i don't remember, it's a bit complicated.
15:56:48 <ehird> AnMaster: was it some advice you got off expertsexchange?
15:57:10 <AnMaster> ehird, never heard of that place. So no. Was just to reduce confusion.
15:57:16 <oklofok> serious funniness overload.
15:57:21 <ehird> AnMaster: experts exchange / expert sex change
15:57:23 <ehird> it was a joke, foo.
15:57:34 <ehird> (yes, there is an expertsexchange.com but they changed to experts-exchange)
15:57:38 <ehird> (see? its' related to your joke)
15:57:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I never heard of "experts exchange" either.
15:58:01 <oklofok> ehird: in fact, i never had a sex change.
15:58:13 <ehird> oklofok: as exchange?
15:58:13 <AnMaster> ehird, so thus your reference wasn't clear to me.
15:58:17 <ehird> you never exchanged your ass?
15:58:50 <AnMaster> ehird, well maybe he liked the donkey. Why replace it then.
15:59:07 <oklofok> ehird: no one will exchange with me :<
16:00:43 <AnMaster> I can't come up with any misinterpretation to that one that doesn't make the remaining part include a non-existent word.
16:00:58 <ehird> just assume it's a typo and fix it for them
16:01:26 <AnMaster> why should it. I mean it seems to work now.
16:01:52 <AnMaster> I guess you want to parse some non-LR(1) grammar you might need to change it.
16:02:02 <oklofok> right is lex a lexing tool?
16:02:15 <AnMaster> ah right. I mixed them up too,.
16:03:08 <AnMaster> yes, lex takes an input description file and generates a stream of tokens. Which can then be parsed by a parser for example.
16:03:25 <ehird> it takes an input description file and outputs a c file
16:03:33 <ehird> which takes bytes and outputs a stream of tokens
16:03:55 <AnMaster> it was what I *thought* though
16:04:05 <oklofok> there's a level of indirection in addition to yours, so to speak
16:04:29 <oklofok> HOW MANY O'S WOULD AN O O O IF AN O O O O O O O O
16:04:57 <oklofok> AnMaster: any excuse to flood o's
16:05:18 <oklofok> actually i have an exam on wednesday, so i should probably start reading stuff
16:05:43 <AnMaster> oklofok, assuming normal room temperature of course.
16:06:56 <oklofok> SO HAVE YOU HEARD THIS BLONDE WALKS IN BAR AND IS STUPID AND EVERYONE LAUGHS
16:07:49 <AnMaster> oklofok, there is also some inconclusive evidence that extreme humidity during extended periods can affect the result.
16:07:57 -!- ais523 has joined.
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16:30:46 -!- Sgeo has joined.
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17:16:36 * ais523 submits Enigma scores for April
17:29:02 * Sgeo wants Twitternomic
17:29:20 * Sgeo realizes that he has no clue how that could work
17:30:05 <ais523> Sgeo: you have to publish the entire ruleset every week
17:30:12 <ais523> therefore, it's very short]
17:31:00 <oklofok> is that specified for nomics?
17:31:32 <oklofok> was just thinking that probably wouldn't work on other planets, then realized i don't really know what a week is, arbitrary?
17:31:43 <ais523> Agora specifies weeks in terms of UTC
17:31:51 <ais523> B also specifies weeks, as being at least 12 days long, possibly longer
17:32:11 <oklofok> so not earth week necessarily
17:32:22 <oklofok> but what's the definition of week, is it historical or what?
17:32:40 <oklofok> hmm seven days i guess that's biblish.
17:33:01 <ehird> http://femto.picoup.com/
17:33:04 <AnMaster> The message would be in the timing of the messages.
17:33:06 <ehird> one letter's good enough for anyone
17:33:16 <AnMaster> and timing for encoding information
17:33:21 <ehird> AnMaster: w/ zero length you still have @references
17:33:27 <ehird> so you'd just register a bunch of dummy accounts
17:33:43 <AnMaster> I'm not familiar enough with twitter to know what @references is
17:33:49 <Sgeo> ehird, according to Twitter's counter, the @thing still counts in characters
17:33:57 <Sgeo> AnMaster, @nick refers to the user nick
17:34:01 <ehird> Sgeo: picoup is the international standard for small scale twitters
17:34:08 <ehird> and it lets you use a reference unlimitedly
17:34:09 <Sgeo> If it's the first thing in a tweet, it's a reply. If not, it's a mention
17:37:47 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
17:46:02 <AnMaster> seems like wikipedia is having issues today
17:46:17 <AnMaster> lots of timeout, missing css, missing images.
17:46:33 <AnMaster> ais523, #wikipedia didn't seem to know about it when I asked.
17:49:09 <Deewiant> rewrite fingerprints/rcfunge98/trds.d (75%)
17:49:24 <Deewiant> 4 files changed, 255 insertions(+), 267 deletions(-)
17:49:59 <Deewiant> [fingerprints-back d13d9ba] TRDS. Forced fixes in FungeMachine and IP.
17:49:59 <Deewiant> 4 files changed, 255 insertions(+), 267 deletions(-)
17:49:59 <Deewiant> rewrite fingerprints/rcfunge98/trds.d (75%)
17:50:06 * ais523 was wondering if rewrite was like patch, but generated patches using Markov chaining
17:50:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but what does it mean. number of lines that are different or what
17:50:35 <Deewiant> I think it just says so if a certain percentage of the lines change but I'm not sure
17:51:03 <Deewiant> Possibly also the contents, not the lines
17:51:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, did you fix those core bugs yet
17:51:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, the revision you pulled whenever should have them all fixed?
17:51:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there were some other in some of the test cases. Lockups and such as I mentioned.
17:51:52 <Deewiant> I ran through all of cfunge's tests this morning and none failed
17:52:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, I know, but I fixed them all before you last pulled.
17:52:08 <Deewiant> I might have only mentioned the one.
17:52:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the crash on wrong line number was the only one I remember you fixing
17:52:47 <Deewiant> LDC fixed that error message bug too :-)
18:04:02 <ehird> Deewiant: I may have an LDC/D1/Tango/rebuild environment up in a sec.
18:04:05 <ehird> So I can try ccbi2.
18:04:14 <Deewiant> Yes, I've been following your troubles. :-)
18:04:56 <ehird> But Deewiant #ldc is not Deewiant #esoteric.
18:04:59 <ehird> The latter is blissfully unaware.
18:05:55 <Deewiant> Hmm, methinks CCBI2 is now at the same level of functionality as CCBI1, minus 3DSP which is blocked on an LDC bug.
18:06:05 <ehird> You should port ccbi to a language that doesn't make me suicidal.
18:06:12 <ehird> That would be quite nice.
18:06:39 <Deewiant> CCBI is a bit too big for me to bother porting it.
18:06:51 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk] % rebuild hello.d -ofhello
18:06:51 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk] % ./hello
18:06:57 <ehird> FUUUUUUUUUUUCK YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
18:07:27 * Sgeo prefers "You're winner!"
18:07:29 <ehird> Deewiant: git uri?
18:12:25 <Deewiant> Well, if you still have that old repository a 'git pull' might work now.
18:12:56 <ehird> git clone git://tar.us.to/ ccbi2?
18:13:56 <ehird> Deewiant: rebuild ccbi.rf?
18:14:20 <ais523> ooh, they've invented 500GB optical disks
18:14:31 <ehird> ais523: ooh, they've invented 1TB solid state drives
18:14:41 <ehird> Deewiant: ccbi.d(18): module flags cannot read file 'ccbi/flags.d'
18:14:43 <ehird> What what in the butt butt
18:14:49 <ais523> yes, but optical > solid state in the size impressiveness stakes, I think
18:15:03 <ehird> ais523: But solid state > optical in the useful stakes
18:15:10 <ehird> Imagine the spinning
18:15:11 <Deewiant> ehird: As AnMaster has berated me for many times, the directory has to be called ccbi.
18:15:16 <ais523> I suspect optical > solid state in the cheap stakes, though
18:15:31 <ehird> Deewiant: Wrap it all in one directory, have ccbi.rf outside of it doing -Iccbi
18:15:39 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, I know, I just haven't done it.
18:15:42 <ehird> ais523: True, $3k isn't a nice price.
18:15:50 <ais523> ehird: * soblem prolved?
18:15:50 <ehird> Deewiant: Are patches accepted?
18:16:02 <AnMaster> ehird, do not try to do ln -s . ccbi. It won't work since the produced binary is called ccbi
18:16:25 <AnMaster> ehird, it was one of the first things I tried.
18:16:45 <AnMaster> idea: express major version as the directory nest
18:16:48 <Deewiant> You /can/ tell rebuild what the binary should be called.
18:17:00 <AnMaster> like: foo 1.0 is foo/*.c foo 2.0 is foo/foo/*.c
18:17:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not sure about that yet
18:17:31 <Deewiant> The number of dots before the extension
18:17:38 <Deewiant> Or repeat the extension that many times
18:17:40 <ais523> AnMaster: I'd love there to be a foo -1.x under that naming system
18:17:49 <ais523> actually, any excuse for an antitarbomb would be great
18:18:00 <ais523> I mean, an antiantitarbomb-tarbomb
18:18:08 <ais523> as in, one that untars in ..
18:18:18 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc tar restricts that?
18:18:19 <ais523> I bet the tar standard doesn't support that, but I so hope it des
18:18:20 <fizzie> They should get the holography-based discs to the market (infallopedia says they have 250GB discs now with a 3.9TB maximum); simply because, you know... holographic discs! It's *so* the future. I'm sure they've used some sort of holocubes in at least one scifi series.
18:18:23 <ehird> Deewiant: How do you want the patch?
18:18:47 <AnMaster> ais523, I remember some security report about that.
18:19:09 <ais523> fizzie: in "3001" by Arthur C. Clarke, standard removable data storage that people carried around was in the petabyte to exabyte rate
18:19:10 <ehird> Deewiant: What I'm trying to say is I forgot how to get a mail friendly version of a commit.
18:19:25 <ais523> which strikes me as surprisingly low given Moore's Law
18:19:26 <Deewiant> ehird: I don't know, I develop alone.
18:19:47 <ais523> I know, I was being facetious
18:20:07 <ais523> I'm mostly at peace on the whole emacs/vi thing, can you give me at least one holy war to fight?
18:20:12 <Deewiant> ehird: git show --pretty=email
18:20:13 <fizzie> Well, Moore's law is more like a guideline here... but still, it does sound pretty small for 3001.
18:20:22 <ehird> Deewiant: Does git have a command to apply that?
18:20:38 <Deewiant> ehird: It has git am, but of course that doesn't work with Thunderbird.
18:21:16 <ehird> Deewiant: "git show" on the rename shows a diff for every single fucking line in ccbi
18:21:19 <Deewiant> Which is why I might just grab the diff-part and apply it under my name. :-P
18:21:33 <ehird> Deewiant: How about I just give you instructions?
18:21:54 <Deewiant> Tell you what, I'll do it myself
18:22:00 <ehird> Deewiant: mkdir ccbi; "ls|sed 's/ccbi.rf//;s/ccbi$//'|xargs echo", git mv THOSE ccbi
18:22:29 <Deewiant> But I'll just move obj to toplevel
18:22:38 <ehird> Deewiant: Don't move ccbi.rf
18:22:42 <ehird> Keep it in the root
18:22:47 <ehird> It's not part of the ccbi. hierarchy
18:23:08 <ehird> It already is, I think, but kay
18:23:29 <Deewiant> Well, I didn't follow your instructions
18:23:37 <Deewiant> I just did mv * and then moved back the rest
18:23:50 <ehird> Deewiant: git mv != mv
18:24:14 <ehird> But in the commit it shows "renamed ff -> gg"
18:24:34 <ehird> It's a testament to how good they are that I didn't notic
18:24:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I kind of prefer that it tracks moves, since I often move and rewrite large parts of the file in the same commit.
18:24:59 <Deewiant> Now should I call the binary ccbi2 or the directory src/ccbi
18:25:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Then it's not much of a rename
18:25:13 <ehird> Deewiant: Directory: src/ccbi
18:25:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why can't you just call it src
18:25:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Module naming.
18:25:36 <AnMaster> src/*.d src/fingerprints/{rcs,catseye,...}/*.d
18:25:49 <ehird> Like Java, Python, ...
18:27:57 <Deewiant> Well, that's that, now AnMaster doesn't have to hate me for that any more.
18:28:35 <ehird> Deewiant: Put the uri up plz
18:28:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I just need to git pull I assume?
18:29:39 <ehird> Deewiant: rebuild -rfccbi.rf -L-lncurses
18:30:09 <ehird> Remember to link with an ncurses library.
18:30:09 <ehird> Assuming 32-bit chtype...
18:30:11 <ehird> Remember to link with an ncurses library.
18:30:13 <ehird> Assuming 32-bit chtype...
18:30:15 <ehird> Remember to link with an ncurses library.
18:30:17 <ehird> Assuming 32-bit chtype...
18:30:21 <ehird> Thank you, CCBI. I got it the first time.
18:30:27 <ehird> zsh: bus error bin/ccbi --help
18:30:32 <Deewiant> ehird: Blame the DMD frontend, not me.
18:30:41 <ehird> Deewiant: Er, so what'mI meant to do
18:30:47 <ais523> Deewiant: I got CCBI running under gdc but not dmd, IIRC
18:30:49 <Deewiant> Or actually, blame rebuild, I guess.
18:30:56 <ehird> ais523: this is ccbi2
18:30:59 <ehird> you're meant to use LDC
18:31:04 <ehird> which uses the dmd frontend, but LLVM as a backend
18:31:06 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you tell apt-get or aptitude to *reinstall* a package
18:31:09 <Deewiant> ais523: It can't have worked well with GDC, some things would have segfaulted it.
18:31:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Uninstall and reinstall.
18:31:16 <AnMaster> ais523, somehow some of it's files are not there.
18:31:16 <ehird> Deewiant: So, why does --help segfault?
18:31:24 <AnMaster> ehird, won't that delete the config files for it.
18:31:26 <Deewiant> ehird: Beats me, can you backtrace?
18:31:30 <ehird> Only purging does that.
18:31:36 <Deewiant> ehird: Pass -gc to rebuild if you can't
18:31:46 <Deewiant> And -full to make sure it actually builds
18:31:58 <ais523> AnMaster: apt-get install --reinstall
18:32:07 <ehird> ais523: not intentionally!
18:32:11 <ehird> it's not lying if you didn't know
18:32:13 <AnMaster> ais523, none in aptitude though
18:32:19 <ais523> well, I didn't know either, I was reading the man page
18:32:24 <ais523> and I don't use aptitude
18:33:24 <fizzie> There *is* a "reinstall" command in aptitude.
18:34:00 <fizzie> Just "aptitude reinstall package"; I'm not sure where it is in the text-ui.
18:34:03 <AnMaster> anyway it didn't add the missing file back. So how do I list the package to make sure I didn't imagine it being there in the first place.
18:34:14 <fizzie> "L": Request that a package be reinstalled.
18:34:19 <fizzie> Okay, you can use uppercase-L in the UI.
18:34:40 <fizzie> And you can use "dpkg-query -L package" to list the files contained in one.
18:35:09 <AnMaster> ok.... for some reason reinstalling lighttpd didn't add back the missing /etc/init.d/lighttpd
18:35:50 <ehird> OMG, Multi-Threading is
18:35:50 <ehird> Easier Than Networking
18:35:53 <ehird> — Title of Intel paper
18:35:56 <ehird> http://software.intel.com/file/14723
18:36:17 * ais523 isn't sure offhand which of multithreading and networking inherently feels harder
18:36:42 <AnMaster> the file doesn't exist though. And reinstalling it doesn't add it back.
18:36:52 <AnMaster> what does one do on debian in that case.
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18:37:19 <ehird> "ccbi" prints the same as "ccbi --help", right?
18:37:23 <ehird> Because just ccbi works.
18:37:24 <fizzie> Well, you can "aptitude purge lighttpd" followed by a separate "aptitude install lighttpd", to make sure it is as if you were installing lighttpd for the first time; that will remove the related config files too, though.
18:37:33 <ehird> Deewiant: Does this make any fucking sense to you?
18:37:39 <ehird> #0 0x0006febe in _d_invariant (o=0x1300000) at /Users/ehird/d/ldc/runtime/internal/invariant.d:16
18:37:39 <ehird> #1 0x0003a9c4 in _D5tango2io6stream6Format20__T12FormatOutputTaZ12FormatOutput8formatlnMFAaYC5tango2io6stream6Format20__T12FormatOutputTaZ12FormatOutput ()
18:37:42 <ehird> It's the stream formatting that's broken
18:37:46 <ehird> Why would it only break with a command line argument
18:37:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't want it to remove them. Just add the missing init.d script!
18:38:09 <Deewiant> Well, something else could easily break it
18:38:30 <Deewiant> ehird: What if you pass any other argument
18:38:52 <fizzie> I really think reinstall should add missing non-configurationary files. But if you don't mind, you can always just unpack the deb and put it there manually. Incidentally, do you happen to have the links to the initscript still?
18:39:00 <ehird> zsh: bus error bin/ccbi fuck
18:39:25 <ehird> Deewiant: #1 0x0003a9c4 in _D5tango2io6stream6Format20__T12FormatOutputTaZ12FormatOutput8formatlnMFAaYC5tango2io6stream6Format20__T12FormatOutputTaZ12FormatOutput ()
18:39:27 <Deewiant> Go to line 350 in ccbi.d, turn the test to true ||
18:39:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes, something complaining about those broken symlinks was how I noticed it.
18:39:29 <ehird> That's not to do with regex?
18:39:29 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:39:49 <Deewiant> ehird: Doesn't mean that regex can't break something that causes everything else to break
18:40:02 <ehird> Where is this test, o mighty one?
18:40:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, any command to make it check integrity of all installed files.
18:40:51 <AnMaster> To make sure no other ones are missing.
18:41:28 <ehird> Deewiant: regex thing changes nothing
18:41:44 <fizzie> Reinstall indeed doesn't seem to add init.d files back. I guess it really considers that a config file, then, or something. Can't really say I've ran across a related problem before.
18:42:28 <Deewiant> ehird: Reduce it to a single small file, if you can
18:43:02 <Deewiant> ehird: Remove from line 359 to the last }
18:43:30 <Deewiant> Try that, in the meanwhile I'll make you something to test
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18:48:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I wonder what response I would have got from you if I had asked that for cfunge (I'm pretty sure you know C)
18:49:43 <AnMaster> ehird, by the way, what large esolang related projects have you done recently?
18:50:32 <ehird> I don't go for the large esolangs, so umm
18:50:46 <AnMaster> ah. What about your last small esolang interpreter/compiler.
18:50:51 <Sgeo> Hey, I'm actually doing some homework!
18:51:08 <Sgeo> AnMaster, it's a rarity
18:51:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: Oh, I foundeded it: dpkg -i --force-confmiss /var/cache/apt/archives/lighttpd<correct version here>.deb
18:51:45 <ehird> AnMaster: My unlambda in haskell?
18:51:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: That will add missing configuration files, but should not touch existing ones.
18:52:02 <Sgeo> I don't get it
18:52:42 <ehird> http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/4/22/78 LOL WAT
18:53:28 <fizzie> It should say something like "Configuration file `/etc/init.d/mt-daapd', does not exist on system. Installing new config file as you request."
18:54:40 <AnMaster> interestingly enough sparse fails to parse some cfunge files. It handles C99 pretty well. But not the foo(double bar[restrict 16]) syntax.
18:59:24 <ehird> AnMaster: http://ivoras.sharanet.org/freebsd/freebsd8.html freebsd replacing gcc w/ clang
19:00:06 <AnMaster> ehird, yes sure. Only reason I consider the first link insane is that using clang or something else would be a way smarter move.
19:00:09 <pikhq> My Internet connection hates me. Be back in a bit.
19:00:15 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving").
19:00:40 <AnMaster> Prediction YACC won't mean Yet Another Compiler Compiler. Instead it will mean: Yet Another C Compiler (oh no!)
19:01:19 <ehird> I wish it'd die again.
19:01:33 <AnMaster> ehird, it is like trolls in nethack I'm afraid.
19:01:50 <AnMaster> ehird, plus, what language would you suggest, other than C, for the linux kernel.
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19:02:11 <ehird> Lisp. Although that would not lend itself to implementing a Unix. That's a feature.
19:03:58 <AnMaster> ehird, Yes. But do you think that will actually happen. Or are you just wishing.
19:04:34 <ehird> Probably. Maybe. One day. If we get intelligence-enhancing brain transplants my preferred UI would be Lisp.
19:04:42 <ehird> That's far off of course. Hopefully lisp machines will happen again sooner.
19:04:54 <ehird> There are many things less likely.
19:04:57 <lament> my preferred ui would be tits
19:05:04 <lament> how about a tits-based programming language.
19:05:12 <lament> nested tits? hell yeah.
19:06:18 <ehird> (.)list 1 2 (.)+ 2 2(.)(.)
19:07:51 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
19:09:06 <ehird> Nested tits programming language, pioneered by lament.
19:14:47 <Deewiant> ehird: So if you wanna pull I removed usage of regex
19:15:43 <ehird> Yay it is the work ing
19:16:05 <ehird> Deewiant: Is optimization enabled by default?
19:16:15 <Deewiant> Coincidentally, removing that module decreased the size of the binary by 140K (the optimized, not stripped and compressed version)
19:16:50 <Deewiant> (86K for the stripped one and 26K for the UPX'd one)
19:17:33 <Deewiant> But I don't think the last two are implemented
19:17:39 <Deewiant> They're link-time optimization
19:17:48 <ehird> ldc: Unknown command line argument '-O7'. Try: '/Users/ehird/d/ldc/bin/ldc --help'
19:17:48 <ehird> ldc: Unknown command line argument '-O7'. Try: '/Users/ehird/d/ldc/bin/ldc --help'
19:17:49 <ehird> ldc: Unknown command line argument '-O7'. Try: '/Users/ehird/d/ldc/bin/ldc --help'
19:17:51 <Deewiant> And I don't think anything LLVM does it.
19:17:51 <ehird> ldc: Unknown command line argument '-O7'. Try: '/Users/ehird/d/ldc/bin/ldc --help'
19:18:21 <Deewiant> Whether something upstream would accept it and do something with it, I don't know.
19:19:01 <ehird> Deewiant: -O5 gives me an llvm assertion error
19:19:06 <ehird> Assertion failed: (Op.isUse() && (Op.isKill() || getFPReg(Op) == FirstFPRegOp || MI->killsRegister(Op.getReg())) && "Ret only defs operands, and values aren't live beyond it"), function handleSpecialFP, file X86FloatingPoint.cpp, line 1072.
19:19:07 <ehird> 0 ldc 0x00ae5a02 llvm::sys::RemoveFileOnSignal(llvm::sys::Path const&, std::string*) + 866
19:19:13 <ehird> It still runs though
19:19:18 <Deewiant> It could be an LLVM bug or an LDC bug
19:19:31 <ehird> Say, does ccbi work with 64 bit ints
19:19:44 <Deewiant> It doesn't use them for the funge-space cells, no.
19:19:55 <Deewiant> ehird: The reason it still runs is that it didn't link it again. :-P
19:19:57 <ehird> Right, so compiling 64bitly is wasteful
19:19:59 <Deewiant> You're running the old binary.
19:20:01 <ehird> Deewiant: I rm -rf'd bin so let's try again
19:20:04 <ehird> it gave output after that
19:20:15 <Deewiant> ehird: That's because rebuild continues.
19:20:36 <Deewiant> 64-bit isn't wasteful: there are some longs/ulongs in there (64-bit ints)
19:20:47 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:20:48 <ehird> Same error woo hoo
19:20:49 <Deewiant> Well, it may still be wasteful in the end
19:21:01 <Deewiant> But it's not completely useless.
19:21:45 <ehird> -m64 -march=x86-64
19:21:51 <ehird> rebuild -rfccbi.rf -full -L-lncurses -O3 -m64 -march=x86-64 -release
19:21:56 <ehird> ^CError: -m32 and -m64 switches cannot be used together with -march and -mtriple switches
19:23:02 <ehird> Deewiant: Trying -O2
19:23:18 <Deewiant> ehird: It's not so slow that you /have/ to optimize it >_<
19:23:37 <ehird> -funroll-unsafe-mathematical-integral-loops-pentium-4-only
19:23:53 <ehird> It gives a linker error.
19:24:03 <ehird> A FUCKING HUGE linker error
19:24:47 <ais523> ehird: -march=x86-64 implies -m64
19:24:53 <ehird> Deewiant: 1966 or so lines of integer errors:
19:24:54 <ehird> Your paste cannot be larger than 100 kb. Sorry.
19:26:23 <ehird> http://pastebin.com/f73d5f685
19:26:37 <Deewiant> I meant, is that the flag causing the problems.
19:27:29 <Deewiant> ehird: ld warning: in /Users/ehird/d/ldc/lib/libtango-base-ldc.a, file is not of required architecture
19:27:38 <Deewiant> So no shit it can't find the symbols
19:28:13 <ehird> % rebuild -rfccbi.rf -full -L-lncurses -O1 -release
19:28:26 <ehird> Now, where's dat mycogy
19:39:45 <ehird> Deewiant: Is sanity.bf meant to just sit there?
19:41:30 <ehird> I'm saying that ccbi2 does that.
19:41:38 <ehird> So does mycology.b98.
19:41:40 <AnMaster> $ build/cfunge mycology/sanity.bf
19:41:47 <AnMaster> well it doesn't print a newline at the end
19:41:53 <ehird> Hey Deewiant, also,
19:41:54 <ehird> Copyright (c) 2006-2009 Matti Niemenmaa, http://www.iki.fi/matti.niemenmaa/
19:41:55 <ehird> See the file license.txt for copyright details.
19:41:57 <ehird> Usage: --help ARGS SOURCE_FILE [BEFUNGE_ARGS...]
19:43:23 <ehird> So, I've gone batshit insane and am going to be the implementing of the befungey.
19:43:43 <ehird> ais523: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
19:43:50 <ais523> in fact, you could have both ITRALCEN and Bfngue
19:43:54 <AnMaster> ehird, how does ITRALCEN differ from INTERCAL
19:44:03 <ais523> AnMaster: ITRALCEN's a vaporware INTERCAL interp
19:44:07 <ehird> AnMaster: It's more reflective, and orthogonal, and it has a weird compiler system like CLC.
19:44:12 <AnMaster> ais523, but what makes it special.
19:44:16 <ais523> or knowing INTERCAL, a bit of both
19:44:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Simultaneous operand overloading, fwiw.
19:44:22 <ais523> AnMaster: all INTERCAL implementations are special
19:44:27 <ehird> If you operand overload one thing to two things,
19:44:33 <ehird> whenever you use the overloaded, the program threads
19:44:35 <AnMaster> ais523, yes. But in what way is this one special.
19:44:42 <ehird> this is used to implement COME FROM, with ‽ vars
19:44:49 <ehird> it contains an ITRALCEN-string
19:44:52 <ehird> but you can operand overload it, too
19:45:01 <ehird> this, of course, is hell for performance or any sane sort of compiling
19:45:06 <ehird> but ITRALCEN compiles ITRALCEN to ITRALCEN
19:45:14 <ehird> specifically, it compiles the intercal code to the itralcen primitives
19:45:21 <ehird> which are designed just for intercal
19:45:33 <ehird> an ITRALCEN befunge implementation would compile befunge to ITRALCEN on the fly
19:45:46 <AnMaster> ehird, "compile on the fly" == JIT
19:46:14 <ehird> more like self-rewriting source code that's continually hammered into a set of primitives by the ITRALCEN compiler
19:47:15 <ehird> it's quite similar to CLC, but a bit more brain damaged due to the ‽ variables and the really odd set of primitives
19:47:28 <ehird> I mean, operand overloading used for branching? Operand overloading more than once for threading?
19:48:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I still don't see how "on the fly" differs from "just in time"
19:49:12 <AnMaster> and, how do you use operator overloading for threading
19:49:37 <AnMaster> you told me about threading already
19:50:24 <ehird> AnMaster: ‽N is line number N; the contents is its source code, and if you operand overload it, it switches that line for another one (obviously)
19:50:41 <ehird> if you do it twice, then as the interpreter dereferences it to jump, the multi-operand-overloading code kicks in, and threads it
19:56:20 <ehird> Is the name mycelium taken by any funge thing, Deewiant? AnMaster?
19:56:55 <ais523> it's quite close to mycology, but not quite close enough to be confusing
19:57:16 <ehird> AnMaster: No, if I have something that can execute a good portion of funge I'd say it's takn
19:57:19 <ehird> ais523: That is true.
19:57:26 <ehird> I thought it might be the name of a mycology file
19:58:20 <ais523> what licence is mycology?
19:59:15 <fizzie> I had plans to use the name "mycena" (which is a genus of mushrooms, many of the glow-in-the-dark bioluminescent variety) for some project or other, but I don't think it ever happened.
19:59:49 <ehird> Deewiant: (# !Int, !Int #)
20:00:34 <ais523> is that an unboxed pair of unboxed ints?
20:00:50 <ais523> = a 128-bit integer, effectively
20:01:43 <ehird> #haskell says to use data IntPair = IntPair {-# UNPACK #-} !Int {-# UNPACK #-} !Iint
20:01:46 <ehird> To avoid me going insane
20:02:05 <Deewiant> I thought you wanted to use +# everywhere :-P
20:02:23 <ehird> Deewiant: Well, yeah, exactly, I don't want to :P
20:02:38 <AnMaster> <ais523> is that an unboxed pair of unboxed ints?
20:03:01 <ais523> to be precise, Haskell with GHC extensions
20:03:02 <ehird> data Point = Point { x :: {-# UNPACK #-} !Int
20:03:02 <ehird> , y :: {-# UNPACK #-} !Int }
20:03:30 <ehird> Deewiant: Not for now.
20:06:00 <ehird> *Main> point (2,3)
20:06:26 <ehird> point !(!x,!y) = Point { x = x, y = y }
20:06:57 <ehird> But it feels right.
20:07:08 <ehird> Do I even need any bang patterns? The fields are strict.
20:07:23 <Deewiant> The outer you wouldn't need in any case.
20:07:38 <Deewiant> Since (x,y) is a pattern that has to be matched against.
20:07:44 <ehird> I wish I could read ghc asm
20:08:05 <ehird> I wanna see what my point compiled to
20:08:15 <oklofok> i can read it with my eyes closed
20:08:20 <Deewiant> It compiled to a _closure and _somethingelse
20:08:32 <Deewiant> And I can never find the actuaal code
20:09:04 <ehird> Deewiant: Actually, maybe having point is bad
20:09:07 <ehird> Since it might result in a call
20:09:13 <ehird> As opposed to just exposing Point
20:09:49 <ais523> [20:09] <ehird> Deewiant: Actually, maybe having point is bad
20:09:51 <ais523> [20:09] <ehird> Since it might result in a call
20:09:52 <ais523> [20:09] <ehird> As opposed to just exposing Point
20:09:54 <ais523> ^ I misinterpreted that as being about sport
20:09:58 <ais523> due to not looking at the context
20:10:06 <Deewiant> ehird: GHC isn't that crap at inlining
20:10:23 <ehird> Deewiant: I can't read its output, therefore it scares me.
20:10:41 <Sgeo> "In January our profits went up or down, depending on which chart is right, we're not sure. Now February was a very different month, because as you recall we took it off"
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20:12:32 <oklofok> in soviet russia, the area jans you
20:12:54 <ehird> 20:12 ehird: Possibly the most bloated, extensible (it has modules...) esoteric language on the planet
20:12:54 <ehird> 20:12 Berengal: ehird: There's Java...
20:13:39 <ais523> it suffers from excessive trying to be sane in some areas, though, like interfaces, exceptions, and function pointers
20:13:41 <ehird> Maybe I'll call my funge RicerFunge.
20:13:47 <ais523> not to mention templates, but they almost fixed that
20:13:56 <oklofok> stop mocking java, i need to read about it all night.
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20:14:34 <ehird> 20:14 wli: Am I the only one who finds th "esoteric languages" unworthy of any attention/notice/etc. whatsoever?
20:15:06 <AnMaster> <ais523> ^ I misinterpreted that as being about sport <-- which sport...
20:15:06 <oklofok> ehird: i somewhat doubt that :D
20:15:14 <ehird> 20:14 ehird: wli: PROGRAMMING IS SERIOUS BUSINESS
20:15:14 <ehird> 20:14 ehird: Fun is strictly forbidden, lest we write unmaintainable code!
20:15:15 <ehird> 20:15 ehird: Most of all, theoretical models are NEVER helpful to discover new concepts.
20:15:16 <ais523> AnMaster: it doesn't really matter, it could have been anything
20:15:29 <fizzie> I misinterpreted the first line of ais523's misinterpreted block of text in the sense "maybe having a point is bad"; i.e. pointlessness being a good thing.
20:15:35 <lament> ehird: why are you quoting yourself?
20:15:36 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm not much into this "sport" thing.
20:15:54 <ehird> lament: Because it's a reply to a thing I previously quoted, #esoteric-related, that's not happening in #esoteric.
20:16:10 <AnMaster> ehird, so how far in mycology did it get.
20:16:15 <lament> isn't everyone here in #haskell anyway?
20:16:16 <oklofok> lament: you should probably ban him, that's against the rules
20:16:21 <ais523> ehird: but nobody but me's in #esoteric-related
20:16:27 <fizzie> I'm not ever on #haskell.
20:16:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Why wasn't I a dick to you when you tried efunge?
20:16:37 <ehird> HEY YOU STARTED IT 5 MINUTES AGO WHY ISN'T IT DONE YET SLACKER
20:16:44 <ehird> IS IT 'CUZ YOU SUCK
20:16:58 <AnMaster> ehird, you were irritating me when I started on cfunge.
20:17:21 <ehird> Nnnnoooo I wasn't, the only thing I complained about was the name at first.
20:17:27 <ehird> 20:17 wli suggests that there are better languages for exercises in compiler/interpreter writing.
20:19:31 <oklofok> people who dislike things are idiots
20:19:39 <AnMaster> <ehird> @faq can haskell be an esolang?
20:19:40 <AnMaster> <lambdabot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
20:20:33 <fizzie> fungot: @faq CAN BEFUNGE DO THAT?
20:20:34 <fungot> fizzie: " and when are we to do? and meanwhile, baron, what you think of him!"
20:20:52 <ais523> that's a better answer than lambdabot's
20:21:33 <ais523> ^def faq ul (Yes! Funge can do that.)S
20:21:41 <ais523> ^faq can Funge be an esolang?
20:21:41 <fungot> Yes! Funge can do that.
20:21:56 <AnMaster> ^faq can Funge solve the halting paradox.
20:21:57 <fungot> Yes! Funge can do that.
20:22:09 <ehird> AnMaster: halting problem
20:22:12 <ehird> ais523: yes, but, flow
20:22:18 <AnMaster> ^faq can Funge solve the halting problem?
20:22:18 <fungot> Yes! Funge can do that.
20:22:30 <ehird> 20:21 wli: monochrom: In non-esolang-related affairs, slapping a higher-order module system atop basic FP lang constructs is proving difficult for me. ← that's not esoteric‽
20:22:38 <AnMaster> ehird, no, it shouldn't. Since that would be a paradox. Thus it needs to solve the paradox.
20:23:16 <ehird> Hey, someone come up with a good binary coordinate operator.
20:23:43 <ehird> AnMaster: a symbol going between x and y to construct a point
20:23:50 <ehird> AnMaster: that's composition
20:23:55 <ais523> True or false: If this statement is true, I can win #esoteric by announcement.
20:23:58 <AnMaster> ehird, (x . y) looks lispy though
20:24:07 <oklofok> i thought it was endswith:
20:24:07 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm not breaking Haskell.
20:24:18 <ehird> oklofok: a string of symbols
20:24:27 <ais523> AnMaster: it can't be, logically
20:24:27 <ehird> ais523: Ah, AnMaster still denies Curry's paradox.
20:24:30 <oklofok> ehird: oh i thought you wanted a constructor
20:24:35 <ehird> I argued with him about this before
20:24:42 <ehird> he thought the (this=>foo) was an axiom he had to accept
20:24:45 <ais523> AnMaster: because if it's false, that implies that it's true /and/ I can't win #esoteric by announcement
20:25:39 <AnMaster> ais523, Um. I don't see anything implying it must be true if it is false in it.
20:25:48 <ehird> ais523: please, I'm trying to help you here
20:25:57 <ehird> he doesn't understand logic, I tried to explain curry's paradox for _hours_
20:26:18 <ehird> no, it was at least 30 minutes
20:26:26 <ais523> AnMaster: "If A then B" means "A is false or B is true", in logic
20:26:32 <ehird> I know because I started looking for the nearest window to jump out of
20:26:41 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but your overstatement is equal to my understatement.
20:26:45 <ais523> so it's negation, "not (If A then B)", means "A is true and B is false"
20:27:11 <ais523> ehird: see, that was easy
20:27:15 <AnMaster> ais523, seems like a flaw somewhere.
20:27:19 <ehird> ais523: ... or was it.
20:27:24 <oklofok> what i'm not getting about it is why i'm not able to tell you what the reason for the paradox is.
20:28:49 <oklofok> err, well, it's an infinite proposition, nothing says those need to have a definite value, therefore that doesn't need to be true or false.
20:28:50 <AnMaster> ais523, to me it sounds more like a natural language problem than a logical one. And I suspect that the whole premise (sp?) for that logical connection is inconsistent with reality.
20:29:03 <oklofok> AnMaster: i explained it, read.
20:29:08 <ehird> This is exactly the bullshit he spinned last time. oh well.
20:29:59 <AnMaster> oklofok, hm... Are you agreeing with me or not.
20:30:16 <ais523> AnMaster: it's similar to the Epinimedes paradox, "This sentence is false"
20:30:38 <ehird> AnMaster: curry's paradox is logically true in naive logics (those which allow self-reference)
20:30:43 <ehird> it's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing
20:30:55 <ehird> in practice, this means you use a non-naive logic.
20:30:59 <ais523> the paradox works in the logic too, following naive logic rules
20:31:13 <ais523> translating maths into English is always a little hairy, though
20:31:20 <ais523> it ends up meaning the same thing, but being a lot more ambiguous
20:31:25 <ais523> so it feels like there's wiggle room
20:31:30 <ais523> when in the original maths, there isn't
20:31:41 <AnMaster> ais523, but "If the moon exists, it is made of cheese" isn't a paradox. It is just a flawed "casual connection". To me this "paradox" seems more like such a flawed connection, than a paradox.
20:31:42 <ais523> kerlo: could you translate the paradox into Lojban easily, I wonder?
20:31:52 <ehird> AnMaster: not the same thing
20:31:52 <ais523> AnMaster: well, that's just a false statement
20:31:56 <ais523> not a causal thing at all
20:32:07 <AnMaster> ais523, yes. Didn't find the right English word.
20:32:09 <ais523> compare "if the moon exists, it is made of cheese" to "if the moon existed, it would be made of cheese
20:32:23 <ais523> first is indicative, therefore the logical if-then; second is subjunctive
20:32:32 <ais523> and therefore a causal if-then
20:32:45 <ais523> it's a weird feature of English, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Lojban had two different words for taht
20:32:46 <AnMaster> ais523, those seems to boil down to the same to me. Except the latter says it doesn't currently but would happen if it did.
20:32:52 <AnMaster> same thing from two different viewpoints
20:32:59 <ais523> AnMaster: the first is comparing two unconnected statements
20:33:02 <ehird> AnMaster: logically, you're utterly and completely wrong.
20:33:16 <ais523> for instance, "If AnMaster is American, then the Empire State Building is made of lemonade" is true
20:33:24 <ais523> two separate statements combined by if-then, logically
20:33:35 <ais523> "If AnMaster were American, then the Empire State Building would be made of lemonade" is false
20:33:35 <ehird> ais523: you mean it isn't?
20:33:42 <ais523> because there's no logical connection between the two parts of that
20:33:54 <ais523> and the use of the subjunctive implies a causal if
20:34:03 <ais523> noncausal if doesn't come up much apart from in contracts, tbh
20:34:08 <ais523> which is probably why you aren't used to it
20:34:12 <AnMaster> ais523, one issue here is that natural languages confuse the issue.
20:34:45 <AnMaster> it does make a lot more sense as a possible paradox when written in logic.
20:34:48 <ais523> logically, the statement is ((!(this statement)) || (ais523 can win #esoteric by announcement))
20:34:53 <ais523> that's C notation, but you know what I mean
20:35:00 <AnMaster> ais523, but it doesn't make any sense as a paradox at all when written in English!
20:35:10 <ehird> english has no built in logic
20:35:16 <ehird> just a mapping of terms to logic terms
20:35:21 <ehird> therefore, that's a silly argument
20:35:21 <ais523> well, it relies on uncommonly used bits of English which are similar to commonly used bits of English
20:35:29 <ais523> and therefore is likely to be extremely confusing to someone who isn't a native speaker
20:35:30 <ehird> english is just a transport method
20:35:55 <AnMaster> why couldn't ehird just have explained what ais523 just said last time...
20:35:58 <ehird> AnMaster: I tried to!
20:36:06 <AnMaster> ehird, not the "<ais523> and therefore is likely to be extremely confusing to someone who isn't a native speaker" bit
20:36:12 <ehird> it's not easy to explain a language to someone who isn't a native speaker
20:36:19 <oklofok> err, i don't think ais523 was talking about the paradox
20:36:28 <ehird> but, in "X is X implies Y", X is true.
20:36:35 <ehird> therefore, Y is true.
20:36:37 <oklofok> i thought you were talking about the two if-then's.
20:36:40 <ehird> it's logically true
20:36:44 <ais523> ehird: it is, however, easy to explain to a non-native speaker that something is particularly hard to explain to a non-native speaker
20:36:47 <ehird> so that's why you use a non-naive logic
20:36:52 <ehird> which disallows self-reference
20:37:02 <oklofok> ais523: anyway swedish has the exact same two if's.
20:37:10 <AnMaster> ais523, in English I still don't see the paradox. In C I see it. Same for (err what is the word...) predicate logic?
20:37:45 <AnMaster> right. predikatlogik in Swedish.
20:38:11 <ehird> ais523: can you explain to him that english is not a separate logic system
20:38:14 <ehird> just a transport method for thoughts?
20:38:17 <AnMaster> oklofok, which ones are you thinking about
20:38:21 <ehird> he seems to think that english somehow has its own system of logic
20:38:25 <ais523> ehird: but don't thoughts have logics of their own/
20:38:43 <ais523> there are tribes of people who are culturally incapable of counting
20:38:43 <ehird> stating something in english does not change its truth valu
20:38:46 <ehird> that's just ridiculous
20:38:58 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't that an urban myth?
20:39:00 <ehird> ais523: .—.—.mipmip.—.—.
20:39:09 <ais523> AnMaster: well, Wikipedia confirms it
20:39:15 <ehird> ais523: but does netcraft?
20:39:17 <ais523> for Wikipedia values of confirm
20:39:24 <ehird> AnMaster: I should have known you'd pick up that reference
20:39:34 <oklofok> AnMaster: conditional versus the normal verb case, you'd do that the exact same way in swedish
20:39:54 <ehird> AnMaster: not particularly
20:40:05 <ehird> maybe I'll name my funge Cunninghamellacae
20:40:15 <ehird> It has a certain ring to it.
20:40:23 <AnMaster> ehird, of course I can pick up almost any reference from that source. There are just some out of print stuff I'm missing.
20:40:30 <ehird> Actually, I'll call it Hypha. Or Dimorphic.
20:40:34 <ehird> Those are nice names.
20:40:36 <oklofok> AnMaster: if i had used swedish in years, i'd demonstrate, but enough people here know it that i'm not going to try :P
20:41:03 <AnMaster> oklofok, I still don't know what you are talking about...
20:42:43 <oklofok> well i'm not sure i have any idea about anything, but afaiu'd ais523 said you might not understand the paradox because you should it was a causal relation, even though swedish uses that exact same sentence structure for a logical implication, and has a separate causal relation
20:43:59 <oklofok> ais523: lojban doesn't have "paradox", which i find paradoxical
20:44:18 <oklofok> Redirected from "paradoxical"
20:44:18 <oklofok> Did you mean: paradox, paradoxical
20:44:34 <oklofok> oh paradox was suggested there too, then slightly less fnny
20:45:04 <oklofok> but i love how when searching for a word in answers, it often redirects, and asks me if i wanted to search for what i was searching for
20:46:14 <oklofok> AnMaster: basically i search for paradoxical, it redirects to paradox and asks if i maybe wanted paradoxical
20:46:37 <oklofok> and i'm like "wow how did you guess!"
20:46:49 <AnMaster> oklofok, where was that search
20:47:11 <oklofok> i use it to check all english words.
20:47:22 <ais523> [20:47] <ais523> lingbot: en fi "If this statement is true, ais523 can win #esoteric by announcement"?
20:47:23 <ais523> [20:47] <lingbot> ais523: "Jos tämä väite on totta, ais523 voittaa # esoteerinen jota ilmoitus" (en to fi, translate.google.com)
20:47:24 <ehird> AnMaster: answers.com aggregates dictionaries, thesauruses and wikipedia
20:47:27 <ehird> AnMaster: which is convenient
20:47:38 * ais523 has no good if paradoxes survive Google translate
20:47:49 <ais523> now, that's quite a typo
20:47:52 <ehird> ais523: where's lingbot?
20:47:53 <oklofok> ais523: if this statement is true, ais523 wins # esoteric which notification
20:48:11 <AnMaster> ais523, in what channel is longbot
20:49:25 <AnMaster> ais523, do you need to share a channel with it or something
20:49:49 <oklofok> 22:49… oklofok: lingbot: fi en "Jos tämä väite on totta, ais523 voittaa # esoteerinen jota ilmoitus"?
20:49:49 <oklofok> 22:49… lingbot: oklofok: "If this claim is true, ais523 win # rarefied by the return" (fi to en, translate.google.com)
20:50:20 -!- ais523 has set topic: This is #rarefied | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
20:50:28 <AnMaster> ais523, it isn't responding to me!
20:50:35 <ais523> AnMaster: are you putting in the quotes and the question mark?
20:50:54 <ais523> it's quite strict on syntax, it seems
20:50:57 <ais523> AnMaster: with a colon?
20:51:08 <AnMaster> ais523, I copy pasted your line
20:51:15 <AnMaster> and changed to sv, tried with fi too
20:51:27 <oklofok> pikhq: why would you want a job?
20:51:33 <ais523> [20:51] <ais523> lingbot: en sv "If this statement is true, ais523 can win #esoteric by announcement"?
20:51:34 <ais523> [20:51] <lingbot> ais523: "Om detta är sant, ais523 kan vinna # esoteriska genom kungörelse" (en to sv, translate.google.com)
20:51:36 <ehird> (just jumpin' on bandwaggin)
20:52:08 <oklofok> i don't know the last word, but at least the rest seems
20:52:48 <pikhq> System administration.
20:53:07 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb5DjyoDObA
20:53:14 <AnMaster> ais523, that feels soooo out of date
20:53:15 <oklofok> oh. well that isn't that bad i guess, given you're internet people
20:53:38 <AnMaster> oklofok, announcement, But think "town cries" and you get the time setting right.
20:54:05 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving").
20:54:14 <ais523> [20:54] <ais523> lingbot: "Om detta är sant, ais523 kan vinna # esoteriska genom kungörelse"?
20:54:16 <ais523> [20:54] <lingbot> ais523: "If this is true, ais523 can win # esoteric by public notice" (sv to en, translate.google.com)
20:54:22 <ais523> it seems to roundtrip pretty well via sv
20:54:43 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but the Swedish one feels so off.
20:54:56 <ais523> it means the right thing, but is worded weirdly?
20:55:03 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I can't see any paradox in the Swedish one either.
20:55:19 <AnMaster> ais523, but yes as far as I can tell they mean the same.
20:57:05 <oklofok> ehird: shadow thing is awesome.
20:57:20 <ehird> checking for GNUreadline.framework... checking for readline... no
20:57:21 <ehird> checking for tputs in -lncurses... yes
20:57:22 <ehird> checking for readline in -lreadline... yes
20:57:23 <AnMaster> ais523, kungörelse might be closer to "proclamation" in style I think.
20:57:24 <ehird> checking for rl_readline_version... yes
20:57:26 <ehird> checking for rl_begin_undo_group... no
20:57:28 <ehird> configure: error: readline not found, so this package cannot be built
20:57:30 <ehird> See `config.log' for more details.
20:57:39 <AnMaster> <ehird> checking for irc channel to spam... yes
20:57:42 <oklofok> ehird: sounds like something i would make if i wasn't you know lazy.
20:57:49 <ehird> AnMaster: it just makes no senseeeeeeeeeee
20:57:51 <ais523> my favourite configure message ever was
20:58:03 <ais523> checking if build environment is sane... yes
20:58:12 <AnMaster> ehird, true, the error was badly named.
20:58:19 <ais523> that build environment was C-INTERCAL cross-compiling to a half-finished bugg gcc-bf
20:58:42 <ehird> checking if build environment is sane...
20:58:43 <ais523> ehird: I checked the source, all it's actually doing is checking that ls is indeed ls, rather than something entirely different
20:59:04 <ehird> (./configure continues)
20:59:09 <ais523> apparently there were weird bugs due to people aliasing ls before running configure
20:59:11 <AnMaster> ais523, does it even use ls elsewhere
20:59:19 <ais523> and probably, or maybe possibly
20:59:30 <ais523> I also particularly like the way ls is singled out for such treatment
20:59:36 <kerlo> ais523: a translation into Lojban of "if this statement is true, I can win #esoteric by announcement" would be uninteresting.
20:59:56 <ais523> kerlo: would it correctly get logical if rather than causal if?
21:00:17 <kerlo> ais523: I imagine Lojban has a material implication conjunction.
21:00:32 <oklofok> it has 4 different if-then's
21:00:34 <ais523> kerlo: but it's so rarely used you don't know what it is?
21:00:47 <oklofok> does kerlo actually study lojban?
21:01:06 <kerlo> I study Lojban very lightly.
21:01:21 <ehird> oklofok: as far as I can tell kerlo just sits around trying to be as cold and logical as possible while making idle remarks always about ai :)
21:01:23 <ais523> you chose your nick specifically to make sense in Lojban, though!
21:01:24 <kerlo> I don't even know any of the conjunctions for "or".
21:01:52 <oklofok> ehird: he's far too warm when it comes to calculus tho
21:01:59 <kerlo> If I remember correctly, the guy who invented Ithkuil and Ilaksh doesn't speak either.
21:02:13 <ehird> oklofok: is he like
21:02:18 <oklofok> ehird: i've heard he sometimes works with differentials.
21:03:18 <AnMaster> hm interesting.... I usually read English pretty fast, usually I read computer related stuff. However today I was reading about something biology related on wikipedia, and found that excessively hard to read. The Swedish page for that felt like a "simple Swedish" variant. (which iirc doesn't exist.)
21:03:47 <oklofok> kerlo: he doesn't, no one does afaik
21:04:57 <AnMaster> kerlo, what does your nick mean in Lojban
21:05:08 <ehird> my readline doesn't have rl_begin_undo_group
21:05:16 <ehird> AnMaster: ear? or dog
21:05:18 <ais523> you have a readline without undo?
21:05:23 <ehird> ais523: I suppose I do.
21:05:24 <ais523> what sort of editor is that?
21:05:30 <ehird> I have a macports one and the system one.
21:05:36 <ais523> you should use Emacs in readline mode, obviously
21:05:48 <ehird> | return rl_begin_undo_group ();
21:05:51 <ais523> (someone's bound to have implemented that by now, surely?)
21:05:56 <ehird> configure:3196: result: no
21:05:59 <ehird> http://www.nabble.com/Can't-cabal-install-readline-td20862558.html
21:06:15 <ehird> The above happens because GHC is using the OS X default installation
21:06:15 <ehird> of libreadline.a which is actually a link to libedit that doesn't
21:06:16 <ehird> implement the full readline API.
21:06:23 <ehird> but adding the /opt shit don't work :(
21:07:10 <AnMaster> a language you couldn't express anything false in would be interesting.
21:07:12 <ais523> kerlo: doesn't that make you simultaneously infinitely small and infinitely large?
21:07:18 <ais523> AnMaster: probably trivial
21:07:39 <ais523> as in, the language itself would only be able to express a small finite number of things
21:07:41 <oklofok> the empty langauge is like that
21:07:42 <ais523> and therefore would be a trivial language
21:08:01 <AnMaster> ais523, ah. What I meant was a more general usage language.
21:08:06 <oklofok> ais523: kerlo: doesn't that make you simultaneously infinitely small and infinitely large? <<< and no to this
21:08:20 <ais523> that doesn't let you express anything counter-government
21:08:22 <AnMaster> ais523, 1984 right, haven't read it.
21:08:33 <ais523> not quite the same as banning falsities, but should be close enough for practical use
21:08:52 <AnMaster> ais523, how was it supposed to work in the fiction.
21:09:11 <ais523> AnMaster: just there weren't concepts to express things like human rights, and free speech
21:09:45 <ais523> nor was there a sufficiently rich set of concepts to explain them
21:09:47 <AnMaster> ais523, wouldn't it be trivial to invent those though
21:09:57 <ehird> % INCLUDE_PATH=/opt/local/include C_INCLUDE_PATH=/opt/local/include LIBRARY_PATH=/opt/local/lib LD_LIBRARYPATH=/opt/local/lib cabal install readline --extra-include-dirs=/opt/local/include --extra-lib-dirs=/opt/local/lib
21:10:14 <AnMaster> ehird, you only need that because of OS X right
21:10:25 <ehird> I need it because I have readline installed in a non-standard place
21:10:33 <ehird> sorry you don't have an oppertunity to troll
21:10:33 <ais523> which is only because of OS X, right?
21:10:40 <ehird> I have done such things on linux too
21:10:51 <ais523> but only because I was doing something weird
21:10:53 <AnMaster> ehird, readline is usually in /usr/lib there though
21:11:09 <AnMaster> exception gobolinux noted and irrelevant
21:11:20 <ehird> it's so irrelevant that I used it.
21:11:32 <AnMaster> but it solves it in other ways iirc
21:12:38 <ehird> [ehird:/usr/local/lib/ghc-6.10.2] % ./ghc-asm
21:12:38 <ehird> zsh: ./ghc-asm: bad interpreter: /opt/local/bin/perl: no such file or directory
21:12:54 <ais523> where is your actual perl?
21:13:00 <ehird> /opt/perl/bin/perl
21:13:17 <ais523> also, there's a simple solution to such issues; just have only one directory on the entire computer which contains lots of symlinks to itself
21:13:22 <ais523> admittedly, it causes lots of other issues
21:13:33 <ais523> but it will solve those ones
21:13:44 <ais523> as a bonus, it makes implementing locate very easy
21:13:54 <AnMaster> ais523, symlinks to itself usually cause more problems than it solves indeed.
21:14:05 <ehird> What license ["GPL2","GPL3","LGPL2","LGPL3","BSD3","BSD4","PublicDomain","AllRightsReserved"] ["BSD3"]:
21:14:10 <ehird> Where's the BSD2/MIT :-(
21:14:20 <AnMaster> ehird, what is that prompt for
21:14:24 <ehird> AnMaster: mkcabal(1)
21:14:31 <AnMaster> ehird, can't you enter your own
21:14:41 <ehird> Under what category? [Codec,Control,Data,Database,Development,Distribution,Game,Graphics,Language,Math,Network,Sound,System,Testing,Text,Web,Other] [Codec]: Language
21:14:44 <ehird> arguably incorrect
21:14:48 <ehird> Is this your name? - "Author Name" [Y/n]:
21:14:50 <AnMaster> ehird, so you can enter your own then
21:14:55 <oklofok> ais523: i just wanted to ask you a really short question.
21:14:56 <ehird> but it won't copy the file for you
21:14:56 <ais523> I like the way Enigma does licences
21:15:08 <ais523> I gave an even shorter reply
21:15:12 <oklofok> and umm i meant the constant combinator
21:15:16 <AnMaster> ehird, still maybe report a bug
21:15:23 <ais523> oh, in that case, oklofok: second argument?
21:15:37 <ais523> actually, first argument?
21:15:41 <ais523> that's more useful than the second
21:16:09 <oklofok> ais523: first argument would be the directory
21:16:23 <ais523> applying combinators to filesystem
21:16:30 <ais523> sounds like the sort of thing an EsoOS would do
21:16:38 * ais523 wonders what an s-filesystem would be like
21:16:40 <oklofok> ais523: i'm not sure it makes that much sense, i just really wanted to ask a short question :P
21:16:43 <ais523> or even worse, a c-filesystem
21:17:03 <ais523> oklofok: it doesn't, but we're #esoteric; we should be able to /make/ it make sense
21:17:03 <oklofok> with c, backups sound easy
21:19:04 <oklofok> only three weeks of exams left, and i have time to code again \o/
21:23:02 <ais523> oklofok: translation of #esoteric to finnish and back to English, via Google
21:23:19 <oklofok> but "esoteerinen" means exactly the same as "esoteric"
21:29:08 -!- oklofok has changed nick to qop.
21:31:47 <qop> about making a set class... "the public interface we already know from elementary school" <<< currently they teach it at high school, in an advanced course
21:31:58 <qop> funny thing related to this
21:32:24 <qop> i asked a lecturer which course actually does real numbers rigorously in our uni
21:33:12 -!- ais523 has quit ("o").
21:33:25 <qop> (i had a slightly longer answer, but that's the gist of the funny)
21:34:34 <qop> of course, the focus is more on discrete math, but still, that's just incredibly wrong.
21:34:41 <qop> also bye ais.
21:35:45 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
21:37:21 <fizzie> Our "Mathematics 1" course pretty much started by a reasonably rigorous handling of real numbers; but that was the "L1" variant, for physics and maths students mostly; the computer science version ("C1") is rather more discrete-oriented.
21:37:30 <fizzie> And of course there's rigorous and then there's rigorous.
21:37:47 <qop> you started from the axioms?
21:38:05 <qop> or a construction
21:38:25 <fizzie> It was a rather constructivistic viewpoint, if I recall correctly.
21:38:45 <fizzie> It is all so vague; this was five-six years ago.
21:39:22 <qop> this older professor decided a few years ago to give the analysis 1 course (first course you take) that year, and started from reals, and a rigorous foundation of calculus
21:39:32 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:39:40 <qop> halfway through the course about 50% of students had dropped
21:40:03 <qop> and no one was going to pass it, he had to drop most content and just start over, basically
21:40:55 <qop> i actually have the lecture notes, unfortunately i'm not that good at studying if i don't get you know points and grades.
21:41:12 <fizzie> That sounds, content-wise, pretty much like it was done here; but of course the rigorousness level is hard to quantify.
21:41:48 <fizzie> Official list (in Finnish) of the contents for the half-a-year course are: "Luvut ja lukujonot. Vektorit ja analyyttinen geometria. Kompleksiluvut. Yhden ja usean muuttujan funktiot, kompleksifunktiot. Jatkuvuuskäsitteet ja jatkuvat funktiot. Reaali- ja kompleksifunktion derivaatta. Yhden muuttujan differentiaalilaskenta."
21:42:15 <qop> well, this dude is like 65 years old, when he was young high school actually taught stuff
21:43:15 <qop> well we did things in a different order
21:43:37 <fizzie> I hear the computer-science-maths do a different order, too.
21:43:44 <qop> but a solid foundation of calculus would take a big enough part of half a year to get on the list.
21:44:16 <fizzie> The official list for the C1 variant is: "Vektorialgebra ja matriisilaskenta. Lineaariset yhtälöryhmät. Yhden reaalimuuttujan differentiaali- ja integraalilaskenta. Johdatus lukuteoriaan. Verkkoterion alkeet."
21:44:55 <qop> we have basic course in mathematics 1-3 and analysis 1-2, first set being for stupid people, analysis for smart people; then there's this separate analysis course for math students, and they wouldn't take me in
21:45:25 <qop> that's not rigorous either, but probably more so
21:45:40 <qop> verkkoterion? :D
21:46:02 <fizzie> Someone's been typoing, I guess.
21:46:12 <qop> well okay ais's idea->good was slightly worse
21:46:27 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Official list (in Finnish) of the contents for the half-a-year course are: "Luvut ja lukujonot. Vektorit ja analyyttinen geometria. Kompleksiluvut. Yhden ja usean muuttujan funktiot, kompleksifunktiot. Jatkuvuuskäsitteet ja jatkuvat funktiot. Reaali- ja kompleksifunktion derivaatta. Yhden muuttujan differentiaalilaskenta." <-- translate!
21:46:44 * AnMaster requires translations of everything Finnish said here.
21:47:04 <qop> google translate will probably get that right
21:47:36 <qop> just saying, it's a list of topics, so it's very computer translateable
21:48:00 <qop> i don't know much math terminology in english
21:48:09 <fizzie> AnMaster: Uh... "Numbers and sequences. Vectors and analytic geometry. Complex numbers. Functions of single and multiple variables, complex functions. Continuity and continuous functions. Derivatives of real and complex functions. Differential equations of one variable." Or something like that, anyway.
21:48:54 <fizzie> Deewiant: Our L1 went on to construct real numbers as (infinite) sequences, I think; it's been a while, and it might differ a bit based on the lecturer.
21:49:30 <Deewiant> How else would you construct them? :-P
21:49:49 <qop> i have a hunch there are multiple ways.
21:50:05 -!- qop has changed nick to oklopok.
21:50:48 <fizzie> You might take a more axiomatic view instead of a constructivistic one. At least when it comes to relative amounts of emphasis on things.
21:51:04 <oklopok> i should probably be careful about what i say around you helsingans, i hate hearing about how much better your uni is.
21:52:01 <fizzie> AnMaster: "Vector and matrix algebra. Linear equation systems. Differential and integral calculus of one variable. Introduction to number theory. Basics of graph thory." I've translated the typo here too.
21:52:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, did the typo mean anything in Finnish
21:53:40 <GregorR> Typos is amongst the top reasons why web translators are useless :P
21:53:57 <Deewiant> Just run a spellchecker over it
21:54:30 <fizzie> It went "verkkoteorian" → "verkkoterion"; I guess "graph theory" → "graph thory" is reasonable approximation; or maybe "graph throy". (The Finnish version is the genitive case, too.)
21:55:15 <Deewiant> teoria -> terio is more like theory -> thyro IMO
21:55:31 <fizzie> Yes. That's good, too.
21:59:42 <fizzie> If you have graph thyroid cancer, it means your vertices are multiplying with no limits.
22:00:37 <GregorR> Take THAT, polynomial approximation scheme.
22:02:19 <oklopok> what's a polynomial approximation scheme
22:02:30 <oklopok> all i know is there's a course that covers them
22:02:51 <Deewiant> It's a scheme that approximates polynomially
22:03:21 <oklopok> finds a polynom that approximates, approximates in polynomial time?
22:04:13 <Deewiant> Polynomial-time algorithm that approximates something
22:04:57 <Deewiant> You should've inserted an "or" there, I couldn't parse that
22:05:26 <oklopok> well mostly mine, but somewhat yours too
22:07:27 <fizzie> Or a semicolon instead of a comma. Any Prolog-speaking person would then have parsed it correctly.
22:07:57 <Deewiant> Unfortunately Prolog-understanding would've failed at lexing
22:08:20 <oklopok> i was going for a list of suggestions to get him to elaborate
22:08:41 <fizzie> Oh, but then it worked just fine.
22:08:44 <Deewiant> Maybe you should've wrapped it in []
22:13:50 <oklopok> i was like box -> birthday present -> i wonder when Deewiant's birthday is
22:14:07 <fizzie> Maybe you should've explicitly created a std::vector<std::string> and push_back()ed the suggestions there!
22:14:58 <oklopok> aren't se using namespace std on #esoteric?
22:15:27 <Deewiant> I should hope the namespace isn't that polluted
22:15:53 * oklopok eyes at fizzie with himself
22:16:03 <oklopok> you don't get that reference
22:16:09 <oklopok> kerlo said he's his own ear
22:16:19 <oklopok> so i thought i'd be my own eye during that sentence
22:16:38 <oklopok> okay getting out of hand again, i'll go make pizza ->
22:22:47 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:38:36 <ehird> what a coincidence
22:38:41 <ehird> it is going into my mouth.
22:39:07 <oklopok> i don't, i drank some coke, then read a page, then irced.
22:39:22 <ehird> oklopok: are you irked about that
22:39:57 <ehird> Deewiant: whuz fungespace again? sparse 2d array + what's that weird bound thing
22:40:38 <Deewiant> For y, you need to know the min/max point describing the smallest rectangle that bounds it
22:41:05 <ehird> Deewiant: umm I recall it being simpler
22:41:11 <ehird> wasn't it like you recorded the lenght of each line
22:41:33 <Deewiant> I don't do anything currently; CCBI fails at that
22:41:49 <Deewiant> But that is essentially what you need to know
22:42:02 <ehird> Deewiant: oh, so if you just have a sparse 2d array you should be fine in non-edge cases?
22:42:18 <ehird> i mean how does that interact with wrapping
22:42:20 <Deewiant> For non-edge cases you can get by with a lot ;-P
22:42:25 <ehird> you have to know when you've reached the end
22:42:31 <ehird> so surely you have to store bounds of each line
22:42:39 <Deewiant> But for wrapping you don't need to know the smallest rectangle
22:42:54 <Deewiant> Strictly, according to my interpretation, yes
22:42:59 <ehird> well, smallest rectangle is just shrinking when you replace an end with a space right?
22:43:02 <Deewiant> At least AnMaster accepted it and implemented it :-P
22:43:46 <AnMaster> efunge have exact bounds too since a few days
22:43:48 <ehird> Deewiant: http://pastie.org/460291.txt?key=l9dauneba2wsru0bgfhza Voila?
22:46:44 <Deewiant> It's a LANGUAGE pragma, it enables the BangPatterns extension
22:47:23 <ehird> bang patterns = !Foo
22:47:30 <ehird> data Point = Point { x :: {-# UNPACK #-} !Int
22:47:30 <ehird> , y :: {-# UNPACK #-} !Int }
22:47:36 <ehird> an unboxed tuple of strict platform integers
22:47:45 <Deewiant> ehird: You don't need bang patterns for that.
22:47:55 <Deewiant> Strict fields are not an extension.
22:48:10 <ehird> I should probably put this into git sometime
22:48:34 <oklopok> bang patterns... there's probably a haskell porno with that name
22:48:41 <ehird> oklopok: that would be awesome
22:48:50 <ehird> also Strictness Analysis
22:48:57 <ehird> a bdsm haskell porno
22:49:29 <ehird> AnMaster: weird, unused VCS
22:49:34 <oklopok> Deewiant: afaik it can be used like that.
22:49:34 <ehird> think arch-levels of weirdness
22:49:40 <AnMaster> I was just surprised at Deewiant
22:49:46 <ehird> we've discussed it lately
22:49:54 <Deewiant> Monotone is the first DVCS I tried, or Darcs
22:49:59 <AnMaster> ehird, clearly you should use RCS.
22:50:07 <Deewiant> That was at the point when I couldn't even understand the point of SVN
22:50:10 <ehird> AnMaster: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:50:16 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:50:18 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:50:21 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:50:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, now that is even nastier!
22:52:27 <ehird> Deewiant: Do you have a solution to those leaning-left data decls btw?
22:53:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, that helps too, when you have |s
22:53:53 <ehird> wait you were serious?
22:54:23 <AnMaster> -type supervisor_start_child_result() :: {ok, supervisor_child_pid()}
22:54:23 <AnMaster> | {ok, supervisor_child_pid(), _}
22:54:23 <AnMaster> | {error, supervisor_child_error()}.
22:54:47 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
22:54:50 <ehird> i quite like brace-y languages, because they don't lean
22:54:55 <AnMaster> -type supervisor_start_child_result()
22:54:56 <AnMaster> :: {ok, supervisor_child_pid()}
22:54:56 <AnMaster> | {ok, supervisor_child_pid(), _}
22:54:56 <AnMaster> | {error, supervisor_child_error()}.
22:55:04 <ehird> yep, that's ocaml/haskell style
22:55:28 <ehird> psygnisfive: to the right of code
22:55:30 <AnMaster> -type supervisor_start_child_result()
22:55:30 <AnMaster> :: {ok, supervisor_child_pid()}
22:55:30 <AnMaster> | {ok, supervisor_child_pid(), _}
22:55:30 <AnMaster> | {error, supervisor_child_error()}.
22:56:07 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: foo = bar versus foo =\n bar
22:56:10 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes it works nicely. Not idiomatic for erlang though.
22:56:21 <ehird> x :: {-# UNPACK #-} !Int,
22:56:23 <ehird> y :: {-# UNPACK #-} !Int
22:56:42 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: Long lines versus ones broken up like these guys have been spamming the channel with
22:56:44 <oklopok> WHAT THE FUCK IS HAPPENING HERE
22:56:50 <ehird> my uncomprehension is UNBOUNDED.
22:57:14 <psygnisfive> hnce why you can predict rightly that ehird is talking
22:57:35 <ehird> grr, having to cd src before runhaskell Main.hs is irritating
22:57:44 <oklopok> i always read "noone" as a cutified version of "none"
22:58:05 <ehird> list-tries is a Haskell library which implements the trie (Wikipedia article) and Patricia trie (Wikipedia article) data structures.
22:58:08 <ehird> Deewiant: that already exists.
22:58:32 <ehird> Assuming you have the cabal-install tool installed and working, the easiest way to obtain Glob is with the cabal install list-tries command.
22:58:36 <ehird> on the list-tries page
22:58:49 <ehird> that's a very easy way to do something else!
22:59:25 <ehird> oh blah, I forgot that lahey space is a pain to implement
22:59:46 <Deewiant> ehird: Tries existed in the form of IntMap and bytestring-trie, not otherwise.
22:59:49 <AnMaster> -spec start_child(supref(), child_spec() | [any()]) -> {ok, pid_undef()}
22:59:50 <AnMaster> | {already_started, pid_undef()}
22:59:52 <Deewiant> And bytestring-trie didn't even exist when I started.
23:00:04 <ehird> AnMaster: that's awful
23:00:20 <Deewiant> Why is it awful now but not when you wrote it?
23:00:21 <AnMaster> since it is used elsewhere I think
23:00:45 <Deewiant> I don't think it's bad at all.
23:01:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it goes past 80 cols
23:02:22 <AnMaster> -spec start_child(supref(), child_spec() | [any()]) ->
23:02:22 <AnMaster> | {already_started, pid_undef()}
23:02:25 <ehird> I don't care about your 1980s 80s.
23:03:04 <Deewiant> I care about them but I use a tab width of 3 so others who care aren't so lucky
23:04:07 <fizzie> It's a prime choice EH EH EH.
23:04:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, good. apart from the forced laugher.
23:04:42 <GregorR> <Deewiant> 4 is pointlessly large
23:05:15 <ehird> 3.14 could work fine.
23:05:20 <ehird> it'd change at very nested depths
23:05:49 <Deewiant> Wouldn't you want it to get smaller at high nestings? :-P
23:06:32 <Deewiant> I've used all of 2,3,4,8 and settled on 3.
23:06:34 <AnMaster> ehird, no, not rounded to whole cols in display!
23:07:15 <AnMaster> ehird, it must display it offset compared to other mono-space text!
23:07:22 <Deewiant> I think I very briefly used 1 but that kinda sucked
23:09:28 <fizzie> ^ul (3)S((!)(?))(~^:Sa~a*~:^):^
23:09:29 <fungot> 3?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? ...too much output!
23:09:56 <fizzie> A not-a-power-of-two tab, that is.
23:10:13 <Deewiant> Why should it be a power of two?
23:10:26 <ehird> I wonder how 6 space indentation is
23:10:33 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's a computar thing.
23:10:46 <Deewiant> fizzie: I note that your nick's length is not a power of two.
23:11:06 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, but my tab length (4) is.
23:11:11 <Deewiant> Not everything on a computers has to be a power of two. :-P
23:12:30 <ehird> Deewiant: is there a way to runhaskell with an include dir
23:12:34 <ehird> runhaskell src/Main.hs
23:12:40 <ehird> w/ src/foo available
23:12:43 <Deewiant> I don't know, I don't use stuff like that
23:13:25 * lifthrasiir writing 15-page-long essay on a topic which i don't care so much and which deadline is 8 hours after
23:16:02 <ehird> Goddamn you lahey space
23:16:37 <oklopok> lifthrasiir: i refuse to believe history can be complicated, but i can imagine writing about it would be
23:16:56 <ehird> lifthrasiir: which korea are you in? the dictator one or the high speed interwebs one. well err okay the answer to that one is fairly obvious, I doubt esolangs are encouraged in the other one
23:17:00 <ehird> but you know, have to send it anyway
23:17:04 <ehird> otherwise it'd be wasted typing.
23:17:29 <lifthrasiir> ooh, of course the latter, south one. but that distinction is made in mid-20C anyway.
23:18:09 <ehird> i imagine writing about north korean history is rather easy
23:18:22 <psygnisfive> http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2009/04/one_step_closer_to_a_holodeck.php
23:18:37 <ehird> "Once upon a time, Kim Il-sung created the world."
23:19:20 <ehird> i want brain implants :<
23:19:45 <oklopok> i just want plants in my brain
23:21:02 <pikhq> ehird: The one with Internet access at all, of course. ;p
23:21:10 <ehird> North Korea doesn't have net?
23:21:26 <pikhq> Except in a few limited circumstances, yes.
23:21:46 <ehird> pikhq: Does it have a national net at least?
23:21:53 <pikhq> (a university or two has censored satellite access, and Kim Jong-Il has his own Internet access)
23:22:06 <pikhq> Yes, but not that many people have access to it.
23:22:25 <ehird> I thought it was, y'know, connected, just censored to hell like maybe only govt approved sites
23:23:20 <pikhq> North Korea is a land that hardly has television and radio. ;)
23:23:42 <ehird> Yar... it's just the modern looking cities fool you.
23:24:04 <pikhq> Modern looking and eerily empty.
23:24:34 <ehird> "This is an impoverished country where televisions and radios are hard-wired to receive only government-controlled frequencies. Cellphones were banned outright in 2004. In May, the Committee to Protect Journalists in New York ranked North Korea No. 1 — over also-rans like Burma, Syria and Uzbekistan — on its list of the “10 Most Censored Countries.” "
23:25:33 <oklopok> might be pretty cool to have a country like that
23:25:51 <ehird> Korea Computer Center!
23:25:58 <ehird> — North Korea govt site
23:26:05 <oklopok> maybe esoland will be like that
23:26:48 <ehird> "Politics" links to /en/great
23:27:13 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:28:02 <ehird> pikhq: "Some small “information technology stores” — crude cybercafes — have also cropped up. But these, too, connect only to the country’s closed network. "
23:28:16 <ehird> So I assume nationet is widely available, just not in homes.
23:28:24 <ehird> "According to The Daily NK, a pro-democracy news site based in South Korea, computer classes at one such store cost more than six months wages for the average North Korean (snipurl.com/DailyNK). "
23:28:27 <ehird> Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr not
23:29:05 <pikhq> Available, but not affordable.
23:30:01 <ehird> It would have been fun if lifthrasiir was in north korea and his client self-destructed when I mentioned it :-D
23:31:04 <lifthrasiir> then i'll wish the self-destruction occurs at both end.
23:37:19 <ehird> 32-bit fungespace is 65536 petabytes
23:38:26 <ehird> lifthrasiir: how many sloc is pyfunge?
23:39:24 <ehird> lifthrasiir: w/o fingerprints?
23:40:14 <ehird> so 1650 lines of actual interp
23:41:28 <ehird> after I get fungespace done I'll probably breeze through the rest of funge98 core
23:42:54 <oklopok> ehird: you making like haskell ffunge
23:43:19 <oklopok> i typoed funge, but it looks faster that way.
23:43:33 <oklopok> it's like the word is a racecar or something.
23:43:40 -!- coppro has joined.
23:43:45 <lifthrasiir> that should be fffunge, short for fast-forward funge
23:46:56 <ehird> i could have that in my debugger
23:46:58 <ehird> I plan to have a scrubber
23:47:04 <ehird> so you can go back and forwards in fungetime
23:47:16 <ehird> (as well as have the IP have a shadow of where it's been recently etc)
23:47:26 <ehird> and let you edit fungespace on the fly
23:48:02 <ehird> so by dragging the scrubber along, you fast forward funge
23:57:26 <ehird> *Hypha.Fungespace> parseFungespace "Hello, world!"
23:57:26 <ehird> Fungespace {space = fromList [(Point {x = 0, y = 0},72),(Point {x = 1, y = 0},101),(Point {x = 2, y = 0},108),(Point {x = 3, y = 0},108),(Point {x = 4, y = 0},111),(Point {x = 5, y = 0},44),(Point {x = 7, y = 0},119),(Point {x = 8, y = 0},111),(Point {x = 9, y = 0},114),(Point {x = 10, y = 0},108),(Point {x = 11, y = 0},100),(Point {x = 12, y = 0},33)], bounds = fromList []}
23:57:30 <ehird> Doesn't do bounds yet, oh well.
23:57:40 <ehird> (that's "Hello, world!")
23:57:47 <ehird> that's in the line before :D